Dec. 14, 2021
CD48: bitcoin initiatives by @blocks and @spiralbtc with @moneyball
EPISODE: 48
BLOCK: 714168
PRICE: 2134 sats per dollar
TOPICS: bitcoin initiatives by Block and Spiral, LDK, BDK, bitcoin design community, spiral grants, BTrust, open source bitcoin mining, open source low cost hardware wallets, hellobitcoin, tbd, team bitcoin
@moneyball: https://twitter.com/moneyball
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00:00 - LDK - Lightning Development Kit
30:57 - Bitcoin Design Community
42:46 - Summer of Bitcoin
45:44 - Privacy in BDK and LDK
50:41 - Jack Dorsey's Bitcoin endowment
52:17 - Selection process for board members
56:42 - Block's mining initiative
01:00:34 - Hardware wallet initiative
01:26:12 - Hello Bitcoin project
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:08:54 PM
Duration: 6036.245
Channels: 1
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Let me ask you about crypto,
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which, there's a there's a a a piece out. I think maybe CNBC even,
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talked to, to money manage managers, and that is ripe in
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75%
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of those polled. That's ripe for a major correction or a major,
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letting out of of a lot of air in that in that sector.
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Does that sound like consensus,
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something to go the the other way onto you or or not?
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Well, yes. I believe it is. I think institutions
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are moving in.
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And right now,
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crypto of any sort, they're starting with Bitcoin and Ether, crypto of any sort is a
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de minimis amount or percentage of institutional
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portfolios.
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The reason institutions are moving in is,
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to some extent, this is a new asset class with correlations
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very different,
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compared to other asset classes. In fact,
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Yacine Almandra did a a study on this and found that the closest and we did it with Bitcoin.
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The closest correlation,
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among
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or to other assets was real estate.
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And so institutional managers have to look at new asset classes that are evolving that have low correlations. That's that's the key to diversification,
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and it's the holy grail in terms of asset allocation. So we think that the move actually
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by institutions
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into,
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Bitcoin, if we were to choose Bitcoin, and and that seems to be their first stop,
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could add $500,000
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to Bitcoin's price if they moved into the tune of roughly 5% over time. Kanti, you
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could talk
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another serial dispatch.
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The interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
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Huge shout out to the ride or die freaks who continue to support the show,
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keeping it ad free, sponsor free,
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and just focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
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The easiest way to support the show
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is, through podcasting 2 point o apps.
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My favorite 2 are Fountain Podcasts and Breeze Wallet.
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Download one of those apps.
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Search Citadel dispatch. Load it up with sats, and then you can stream sats directly,
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to my lightning node. You can also support the show at sill dispatch.com
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either through lightning or on chain, through a.
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And as always,
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a big shout out to the freaks who continue to join us week in and week out in our live chat via Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube.
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You guys make this show very special,
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with your live comments and questions.
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So thank you so much for that. I really do appreciate it.
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Couple of pieces of homework before we get started here.
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We have a new matrix chat,
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focused on
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dispatch.
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You can find that at citadel.chat.
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That is gonna be similar to a Discord or Slack experience if you are used to that, but instead, it is self hosted,
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open source, and end to end encrypted. So definitely check that out. We already have a really good group of freaks there,
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and we have one dedicated, to TFTC@tftc.chat
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as well.
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And, also,
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I hope all you freaks, enjoy your holidays,
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with your your friends and your family.
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Dispatch will be taking a holiday break,
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until January 4th. So, the next 2 Tuesdays, we will be taking off January 4th.
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I have a massive show lined up for us already that I'm pretty excited about.
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Rabbit Hole Recap will not be taking a break because we never take breaks for Rabbit Hole Recap for 3 years in a row. So you can still find me every Thursday on Rabbit Hole Recap.
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As always, all shows are available through the podcast feed after the fact,
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and also on bitcoin tv.com,
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if you prefer that.
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So with all that said, a very exciting,
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guest,
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today.
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Someone I consider a good friend who does a lot of work,
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for Bitcoin,
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that some people might not appreciate fully.
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This is serial dispatch 48.
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We will be discussing,
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the Bitcoin initiatives being done by Block, formerly known as Square, and Spiral, formerly known as Square Crypto.
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And we got Steve Lee here.
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Moneyball on Twitter. I don't know how he got the Moneyball Twitter handle. That's
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a fire Twitter handle. How's it going, Steve?
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Hey, Matt. Thanks thanks for having me. It's going great. How long have you had that Moneyball Twitter handle for?
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I think,
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what? Since
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2007 or 2008? That's a pre that's a Primo handle.
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Yeah. I've had I have Moneyball on on most services.
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Wow. Impressive. Truly impressive. I like I like the book. So
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Who doesn't?
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So
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you are
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what's your official title at Spiral?
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I don't really have an official title, but I'm I'm the lead for for Spiral.
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You're you're the main guy.
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Top dog. Well, we're we're a decentralized distributed team.
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So so, yeah, I'm I I'm I'm the I'm the lead for for spiral.
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So we have a great list. I mean, you guys are doing,
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between spiral and between the greater initiatives at Block,
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you guys are doing a ton of work, in the Bitcoin space. A lot of it is open source focused.
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So where do we wanna get started?
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Do you want I mean, we don't have it on the list, but do you wanna talk a little bit about the the name change to spiral first?
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Yeah. We we we can start there.
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So as folks probably know, and you already mentioned that the entire company changed its name from Square to Block,
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for a bunch of good reasons.
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And since
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the brand Square,
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is now,
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you know, very directly and specifically the original Square Business point of sale terminals,
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it's not really related to what Spiral does.
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So the name Square Crypto really didn't make sense sense anymore. And really from the beginning,
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we
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were asked a lot of questions about the name Square Crypto
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because we are such an independent
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group from the company itself. Having Square in the name,
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didn't seem right. And then especially from the Bitcoin
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community and Bitcoin crowd
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being named crypto,
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people want us to, you know, rebrand to to Square Bitcoin or something.
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So yeah. So we it was a good opportunity for us to change our name. We wanted to keep something
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very, very simple,
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and clean. So we,
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we went through a exercise and came up with the name spiral, which we're super happy with.
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Yeah. I think it's a pretty awesome name, and your new website is awesome. Spiral.xyz.
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Yeah. Thank you.
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Anyone who's followed our Twitter account knows that the,
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the blue spiral emoji is something we we always play with and and sort of part of our our, voice and brand. So it it it partially stems from that.
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Well, congratulations on that. I'm sure that's been a long time coming and
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a bit of an organizational headache,
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rather than focusing on on the other projects you guys are working on.
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Yeah. We also came out with a film. I don't know if you want the top of the film. Oh, the film was awesome. With Puppet Jack?
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The Puppet Jack film. Yeah. We, Whose idea was that?
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There's a guy, Ken, on our team. He's he's the the mastermind behind our our Twitter account, and he's the creative on our team.
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So he came up with the idea.
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You know, it's something like Lightning Network
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and LDK, which we'll talk about, the Lightning Development Kit. Yeah. They're very technical,
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very much in the weeds.
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So we wanted to create something that that sort of communicated what we're up to, what the benefits are, but do it in a way that's a little more appealing to to a broader audience.
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And,
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hence hence the film. And so we we came up with a a puppet representing Jack,
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and then tried to add add some, humor to it as well.
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No. It was really great. I mean, I don't think,
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anyone's gonna be able to,
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you completely changed the game of advertising
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development kits.
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Right.
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It yeah. It's it's it's hard to take something that's kinda dry and boring to most people and and make it entertaining. So hope hopefully, that sets a bar for
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for the the broader Bitcoin space and and really software and tech in general.
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So, I mean, this is a good launching point because the first thing we have on the list is LDK, which is was the main focus. I felt like it was the it was the main focus of the video, but also kind of the focus was, like, get to know the spiral team,
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which I liked. I thought it was a nice touch because people tend to forget that there's humans behind these things.
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So LDK. What is LDK? Why should we care?
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Why is it important?
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Yeah. LDK stands for Lightning Development Kit, and it's it's a it's
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its users and its target is for other developers. We're just trying to make it easier for other developers to integrate Lightning Network services into their their,
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wallets.
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It differs from the other Lightning implementations and that it's,
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yeah, it's it's not in and of itself a node or a wallet.
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It's a software library
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that allows other developers to customize and build their own their own lightning node.
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A couple years ago, we
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when we were deciding which project the full time team at Spiral
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was gonna work on, we did a lot of homework. We reached out to dozens and dozens of of developers and wallets
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and asked them what was either preventing them from adding Lightning Network or what challenges they'd faced,
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while adding it.
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Also spoke with some projects that ended up implementing their own
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implementation of the Lightning Network protocol,
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which is which is very complicated.
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So we came over the conclusion that if we really wanna see the space,
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accelerate and grow and see lots of different,
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experiments
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for wallets and nodes and out there, We we needed to make it bet you know, easier and better for developers.
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So
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the we got started on on lightning development kit. We we started with the Rust lightning project that Matt Carollo had started.
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So it it's implemented in a language called,
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Rust.
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But, you know, 2 2 years later, it's taken a lot of time to to build out a commercial quality
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implementation.
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We've also invested a significant amount of time on language bindings. It's another thing we learned from speaking with developers.
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They
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would be hesitant to integrate
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a library that was written in a language that they themselves aren't using. So if you're building an iPhone, you might be using,
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Swift language or React Native and and every different platform. You know, there's many different languages used by wallet developers.
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So while the LDK is written in Rust,
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we wanted to build out native APIs in Java and Swift and other languages to make it easier for developers.
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Awesome.
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To just to pull back a little bit, when you said other,
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I guess, app developers were basically writing lightning implementations from scratch,
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I mean, the 2 that come to mind to me were Breeze
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and Simple Bitcoin Wallet. Is there another one that comes to mind to you?
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Yeah. It was, like, Electrum is one example. Alright. Electrum Python
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Python Lightning implementation that everyone forgets about. Yep. And, you know,
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so I I can't speak for the Electrum project, but, you know, if if I were contributing to the Electrum project, I I definitely wouldn't,
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have wanted to implement and maintain over time,
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an yet yet another lightning implementation. So it'd be much easier to to be able to integrate,
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a high quality open source one
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that was customizable and flexible enough to meet to meet to to meet their needs. And and that's what we've heard from many other,
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existing lightning wallets, especially on mobile phones.
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To get the right user experience
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on mobile is quite difficult,
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often
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resulting in trade offs. You can see this with Phoenix and Moon and Breeze and BlueWallet.
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And so They all have different trade offs. And they all have different trade offs, which is good. It's good and healthy.
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You know, this isn't easy right now. There's many trade offs you can make. I think it's healthy for Bitcoin to have
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lots of different wallets, lots of different recipes out there.
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And just being transparent, letting people know what what am I trading off with respect to to privacy or security,
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or other issues, you know, to to try to get the right user experience.
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Right. So Yeah. Yeah. Go on. Alright. This is gonna be yeah. L LDK has been designed and architected to be very modular and a library that allows
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those wallet developers to,
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to make those types of trade offs without needing to go modify
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or maintain
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their own,
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Lightning implementation.
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So you take away at at its core, it's this idea that
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they the app developers, the wallet developers don't really have to focus that hard on the actual lightning component.
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They can focus on everything else around it.
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That that's correct.
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And, also, the LDK doesn't come bundled with its own
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on chain wallet.
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I believe all the other,
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you know, major lightning implementations
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do. So it's it's really intended for, like, an existing Bitcoin wallet or for
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even if it's a wallet built from scratch,
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a developer who who has in their own mind how they want to,
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you know, do the key storage and what what block data sources they're gonna use, whether it's full blocks or compact you know, compact block filters or there lot there's lots of ways to get the sort of the source of truth.
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We wanna allow the developers to to choose that and not sort of dictate that for them. Interesting.
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So
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would you say that LDK is mobile focused, or is it just mobile friendly but agnostic?
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It's I I'd say it's it's mobile first. I mean, I think the the sweet spot for LDK is noncustodial
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mobile. That's where I'd say it shines relative to other options,
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but it can certainly be used. LDK can be used
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server side and enterprise,
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in custodial
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environments as well. I I think where it might be attractive for the latter
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situation is is anyone
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looking to improve,
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security or scalability and really wanting to go deeper scaling that. The the modular
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modular
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architecture and the customizability of LDK,
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may may prove beneficial in that environment. But, definitely, mobile is where
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LDK has been built to be high performance,
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run-in
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in, environments that don't have as as many resources as,
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you know, server side and data centers.
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Awesome. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us tend to agree,
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you know, that the next 1000000000 users that onboard
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onto Bitcoin and start using Bitcoin will probably be doing it from a mobile first perspective.
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So that makes a lot of sense to me.
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And, also, there's just massive pain points with lightning on mobile right now.
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So when you put the 2 of the 2 of those together,
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making it easier for us to have more
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fully function lightning wallets,
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on mobile
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and enabling developers to build those wallets is a is a very important task. So I I I do really appreciate you guys working on that.
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So you mentioned it doesn't have,
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an on chain component.
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I know we don't have this on the list. I don't know if you can speak to it that much, but I think
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you have Steve Myers on your team that is working on Bitcoin development kit, BDK?
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Yeah. Would love to speak about BDK.
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Is that
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can that be used, like, with LDK so you have, like, the on chain component plus
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lightning component?
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Yeah. That that's exactly right. So Steve Myers is one of our,
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grantees. So just everyone knows, Spiral has a a full time development team of 4 developers, and and they're focused on LDK.
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We also have a grant program where we're giving grants,
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to over, you know, several dozen,
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developers,
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including Steve Myers,
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but also several others who are contributing to
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BDK, Bitcoin development kit, which as you just mentioned, it's it's really like a,
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sibling project to LDK. It it complements LDK.
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It's the on chain Bitcoin protocol equivalent of of LDK. So
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they are independent projects.
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But having said that, I definitely imagine
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them one day sort of merging and just there should just be a free open source
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Bitcoin
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SDK. And and and in my mind, it'll be these 2 projects,
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combined. But even today, even though they're independent projects, they're intended to work together. And another spiral grantee, John Cantrell,
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is building a reference wallet,
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that's based on both BDK and LDK.
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So I think in his,
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in his reference wallet, he's using BIP 157, 158 compact block
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filters, to get block data.
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He's
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getting that through,
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the BDK,
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and BDK also provides, you know, like, fee estimation and coin selection and all the things
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all the components you need
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for,
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an on chain wallet.
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And then he's using that in conjunction with LDK to to, to enable lightning.
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Awesome.
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And and,
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John is is being funded by Spiral as well. Right? He's part of the grant program? He is. Yep.
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You guys,
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I don't think you have, like, a list of your grant recipients anywhere.
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We we we do on our, on our website. So spiral dot xyz. Oh, it's up there now? Yeah. For a while, like, I feel like you were just, like, tweeting it out.
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Yeah. It was, like, hard to follow.
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We yeah. So every everyone can check out spiral.xyz
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to to see, you know, who we've given grants to,
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what they're up to.
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And then with the rebrand to spiral a couple weeks ago, we we published a post, which you can find on our website as well, which really looks back, reflects on the past couple of years, what we've
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what we've accomplished, what we've done,
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and then pointing to the future. We're gonna do basically more of the same.
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We're we're happy to keep supporting
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Bitcoin in in, as many ways as possible.
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That's awesome. And just to be clear, I mean, it was hard to follow in a good way. It was just I felt like every week, you guys were releasing another grant,
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really hit the ground running.
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The amount of of work that is that is being funded out of your your project is is pretty remarkable.
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Yeah. Thank thank you.
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Yeah. And getting back to BDK and LDK, I mean, again, it's our it's our hope that,
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I mean, imagine if you were building,
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you know, a mobile app for iPhone and there was no
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development kit. Or you had to go and as a developer, you're just trying to build, like, a gaming app or a communications app or something like that, and you had to go modify iOS or the SDK yourself.
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That's not really a great environment for
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seeing a massive explosion of creativity and and new applications. So our hope is that with these development kits, we really improve
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the Bitcoin developer user experience by,
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you know, a sub substantial amount. And,
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hopefully, over the next several years, we see a lot more,
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you know, even more creative
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creativity than we've seen so far. Yeah. I mean, I it seems ultimately the goal that that most big corners want and, in my opinion, should want is
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is to have as many options available,
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to to use Bitcoin,
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with varying trade offs. And it it has seemed
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in the past that the major hurdle to that is this, friction of of actually building solid stable
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Bitcoin apps
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and Bitcoin wallets and, having proper,
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foundation for that. I mean, just gotta reduce the friction tremendously. So, hopefully, we'll see
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many more good wallets in the future.
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And
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and just we haven't mentioned yet, but,
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I mean, a lot of people want wonder what's what's the status of LDK? Like, can it be used? Is it ready now?
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It is ready now.
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BlueWallet, which is a wallet many of your listeners probably are familiar with. 100%.
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It's you know, BlueWallet has supported Lightning Network for quite a while now, but it's but it's been,
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because at least by default, custodial lightning. They wanted to move to noncustodial
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on mobile, and, they did an evaluation
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and and chose
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LDK
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as a toolkit for for all the reasons that we we created LDK. So we're really happy that they chose LDK.
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And it's,
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I I think they have, like, a alpha version that's been available for for several months now.
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So it's exciting. And we're also seeing a lot of traction,
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from other,
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from other big services. Hope hopefully, in the next few months,
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we'll,
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we'll see some some other
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services that your listeners either use or are very familiar with that that'll enable lightning using using LDK.
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So their goal is to release
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That's not a general release yet. Right? Like, if you go to the App Store or something like that,
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you won't get the LDK version of BlueWallet yet.
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That's that's correct.
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I still think there's a there's a few things that are, a bit unrelated to LDK that they're shoring up for the next release. I'm not sure exactly what,
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what their schedule looks like, but,
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but but, hopefully, early early next year. That makes a lot of sense to me because I did notice,
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in the LDK
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spiral video,
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that Puppet Jack was spending with BlueWallet, and I was wondering why that choice was made. So
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now I know. Yeah. The BlueWallet team, you know, tweeted out
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the you know, a demo of using LDK at, I think, in August or so of this year. So
355
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I mean, it's pretty funny. Like, all the people who say Bitcoin is moves too slow and nothing new happens.
356
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And, I've, like, devoted my life to try and keep track of it, and you still miss things.
357
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Yeah. Absolutely. Shit.
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I I never understand people saying Bitcoin's, like, dead or boring or slow.
359
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I spend full time on it and can barely,
360
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barely keep up. Exactly.
361
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So where do you wanna go next here?
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I've got before we move on, so the whole thing is built on top of Rust Lightning?
363
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That's correct. And then on on the the library is built in in in Rust,
364
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and then there's the language bindings I mentioned. So there's there's, like, a Java layer,
365
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a Swift layer, and and we're building out support for other languages too.
366
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So right now,
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there's there's 6 lightning
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6 major lightning implementations.
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You have l and d, you have c lightning,
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you have a Claire,
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you have a Morden,
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you have
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Electrum's Python lightning,
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And
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do you have
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oh, you have Breeze's go I think it's a go based implementation.
377
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Is there another one that I'm forgetting? There's one that I'm forgetting.
378
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Well,
379
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Moon has done a lot of
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customized work too. The the the node the portions of the node that run the phone, I think, are are pretty much all their own implementation.
381
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Right right now,
382
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I mean, I don't have, like, hard numbers in front of me, but right now,
383
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the estimates are, like, around, like, 70% of the Lightning Network is running LND.
384
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Do you expect that number to go down? Do you expect there to be,
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you know, multiple implementations with over 20%
386
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of liquidity on the network? Or is or do you think it's gonna be, like, more of a winner takes all kinda thing?
387
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I think it's really early to,
388
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like,
389
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speculate on winner take takes all. There's there's so many trade offs,
390
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with different like we said earlier, in terms of getting the right user experience,
391
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security, privacy,
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and then, of course, between enterprise
393
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and and mobile.
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I can imagine the future, like Internet,
395
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like, IoT
396
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devices, payment terminals,
397
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all kinds of devices where lightning gets added. So I I think there there'll be room for multiple implementations for for for quite a while.
398
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I
399
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do I do expect,
400
00:26:04.585 --> 00:26:09.610
I mean, now I mean, LDK has 0% market share right now because nothing nothing is live.
401
00:26:10.490 --> 00:26:16.190
I think Matt Carl and a few other people have test test nodes that are on main net. Right.
402
00:26:16.570 --> 00:26:23.395
But in terms of actual services with users, nothing's live yet. So right now, it's 0%. So I certainly expect LDA to to increase,
403
00:26:24.095 --> 00:26:26.275
in 20 It's a bold prediction, Steve.
404
00:26:28.070 --> 00:26:28.390
Yeah.
405
00:26:28.870 --> 00:26:37.065
Yeah. So we'll it'll it'll be, should be more than 0% next year. But you do you think it's it's it's important that we have many many implementations
406
00:26:37.445 --> 00:26:38.985
with, like, a decent adoption?
407
00:26:40.725 --> 00:26:44.105
I at at least for the next several years, just because there's,
408
00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:50.200
there's so much room for experimentation and there's no wait offs, I I can't imagine any one implementation,
409
00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:54.895
satisfying all of that. So So the last thing we wanna do right now
410
00:26:55.515 --> 00:27:00.550
in such early days of Lightning Network is to restrict what's possible or what's experimented with.
411
00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:05.210
You know? So may we we can chat again in, like, 3 or 4 years
412
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to see how things have have evolved.
413
00:27:08.525 --> 00:27:11.025
And then maybe maybe long term,
414
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it it it sort of boils down to 2 or 3,
415
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implementations.
416
00:27:16.925 --> 00:27:18.305
Fair enough. That seems
417
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that makes sense to me.
418
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We're still very much in the experiment
419
00:27:23.150 --> 00:27:23.650
experimentation
420
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phase
421
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trying to see what works.
422
00:27:27.865 --> 00:27:30.685
So where do you wanna go next? You wanna discuss b trust?
423
00:27:31.625 --> 00:27:33.805
We could. We we could kinda round out
424
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spiral stuff if you like, direct spiral stuff if you want.
425
00:27:37.690 --> 00:27:44.670
Maybe speak a little bit to the design community. Let's hit it. I think you had a recent show on that, so we don't have to repeat that. But
426
00:27:45.184 --> 00:27:47.365
but I'm I'm happy to speak a little bit about,
427
00:27:47.825 --> 00:27:51.684
Yeah. Let's talk about it. The Bitcoin design community, you guys spearheaded this.
428
00:27:52.260 --> 00:27:56.280
Yeah. I'm really proud of what what that community has done.
429
00:27:57.300 --> 00:27:58.200
It's genesis.
430
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.200
When when we started
431
00:28:00.894 --> 00:28:08.674
spiral or Square Crypto at the time, we wanted to we wanted to impact design in the space because we felt it it had little,
432
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investment.
433
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And we initially set out to hire a full time designer on the spiral team.
434
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And so we interviewed many, many dozens
435
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of
436
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talented designers and really never found someone who checked all the boxes. But I I I think, you know, after, like, 8 months of of meeting over 50 people,
437
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we looked
438
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know, reflected on that, and
439
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:39.275
I think we had we're we're looking for a unicorn candidate. And Right. What we realized is that we've met amazing
440
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designers
441
00:28:40.775 --> 00:28:47.035
with different skill sets, all of whom shared one thing, which is that they all were passionate about Bitcoin.
442
00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:50.190
Another thing they shared is that they were kinda operating
443
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on their own island
444
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in terms of
445
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how to engage and get involved with Bitcoin and communicating with others, which is very foreign to most designers. Like, creative people love to
446
00:29:02.655 --> 00:29:07.710
interact with other creatives, and and, that's a pretty common part of their process. So,
447
00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:12.650
so we switched our our strategy, and we're like, hey. Why don't we just
448
00:29:13.304 --> 00:29:15.804
why don't we initiate and help kick start
449
00:29:16.105 --> 00:29:19.645
the Bitcoin design community? You know, a free open community.
450
00:29:20.105 --> 00:29:21.245
This is not a
451
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spiral or block,
452
00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:25.590
centric
453
00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:33.174
or initiative. It's it's for the Bitcoin community. It's a public good. And so we kicked it off, about a year and a half ago.
454
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And I'm really, really happy with how how it's evolved.
455
00:29:38.270 --> 00:29:48.345
It it is completely independent of I shouldn't say completely. I mean, we we fund several people working on it, but, like, you know, it it runs independent of myself or Spiral
456
00:29:48.805 --> 00:29:49.625
or or or Block.
457
00:29:50.245 --> 00:29:55.980
And I I'm I'm pretty confident that it is now evolved. It has enough,
458
00:29:56.760 --> 00:30:00.460
accomplishments and momentum that it'll be sustainable even if,
459
00:30:01.385 --> 00:30:05.565
spiral just just went away. So I'm really happy with that. They've produced,
460
00:30:06.425 --> 00:30:07.565
a design guide,
461
00:30:08.179 --> 00:30:09.960
which is live and available.
462
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:13.320
They published version 1 of the design guide last June,
463
00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:15.159
and now they're adding
464
00:30:15.535 --> 00:30:19.535
lightning network in a big way to the design guide. And this this really
465
00:30:19.935 --> 00:30:26.530
you know, you can bundle those design guide in with BDK and LDK as just being a a really great resource for any builder
466
00:30:26.830 --> 00:30:27.890
looking to build
467
00:30:28.190 --> 00:30:30.530
a great Bitcoin and lightning application.
468
00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:39.005
The design guide, you know, it obviously doesn't dictate what people do with the design, but it's just intended to be guidelines, best practices,
469
00:30:39.919 --> 00:30:50.385
walk through some of the trade offs that, you'll need to to think about, and just be a a helpful resource. And I I've really noticed in the past 6 months that more and more people are becoming aware of it
470
00:30:51.245 --> 00:30:55.265
and and using it and and trusting it. And so, hopefully, that that
471
00:30:56.350 --> 00:30:57.310
that keeps going.
472
00:30:57.950 --> 00:31:01.970
And another project the design community has done is a wallet improvement project
473
00:31:02.510 --> 00:31:05.330
where members of the of the design community are
474
00:31:06.085 --> 00:31:08.985
selecting a different wallet in in the space,
475
00:31:09.445 --> 00:31:10.505
evaluating it,
476
00:31:11.044 --> 00:31:12.264
and just documenting
477
00:31:12.644 --> 00:31:14.745
areas of improvement. And even
478
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:21.100
not just documenting or or pointing out problems, but trying to come up with solutions. So they're they're coming up with designs in Figma.
479
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:24.365
They're going to the project's GitHub and opening up
480
00:31:24.845 --> 00:31:36.110
issues or PRs to to help improve that wallet. And and the it's been a it's been a great relationship with the wallet projects too because they've they've found they've been very welcoming to this and embraced it.
481
00:31:36.410 --> 00:31:39.630
And we already see a bunch of wallets have made improvements,
482
00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:41.070
that have emerged,
483
00:31:41.534 --> 00:31:42.674
based on that feedback.
484
00:31:43.775 --> 00:31:49.395
So in a lot of ways, I mean, it's it's kind of in the same spirit as BDK and LDK just on the design side.
485
00:31:50.015 --> 00:31:53.650
Yep. Yep. Which is All 3 of these share you know, let's improve
486
00:31:54.190 --> 00:31:57.490
let's make it easier to build awesome Bitcoin applications.
487
00:31:58.855 --> 00:32:04.475
Which I mean is is pretty cool coming from the perspective of block where, like, a lot of people
488
00:32:05.014 --> 00:32:09.290
it's still weird calling it block, by the way. Perspective of formally Square,
489
00:32:10.150 --> 00:32:10.970
where where
490
00:32:11.270 --> 00:32:14.970
you're basically, like, building the foundation for other,
491
00:32:15.405 --> 00:32:18.945
you know, open source projects to come and compete with you.
492
00:32:19.965 --> 00:32:20.465
Yep.
493
00:32:20.925 --> 00:32:22.560
Yep. Gotta love it.
494
00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:26.100
So, I mean, the Bitcoin design community, I've seen massive,
495
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:30.340
massive impact by them already.
496
00:32:31.155 --> 00:32:34.855
When I talk to different wallet teams and stuff, the it's almost,
497
00:32:35.475 --> 00:32:39.554
expected that they're gonna tell me that they already have gotten help, and,
498
00:32:40.659 --> 00:32:43.320
we're very happy with the help they've received from,
499
00:32:44.419 --> 00:32:45.159
that community.
500
00:32:46.340 --> 00:32:47.220
I believe there's
501
00:32:48.034 --> 00:32:55.975
they have a Slack, like, a public Slack. Like, what if if a freak wants to help with the Bitcoin design community, how do how do they
502
00:32:56.355 --> 00:32:57.575
how do they do that?
503
00:32:58.280 --> 00:33:01.260
Well, the yeah. The best places are just go to bitcoin.design,
504
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:08.424
that website. And from there, you can find everything. You can find the the Slack that you mentioned. You can see the
505
00:33:08.725 --> 00:33:08.804
guide,
506
00:33:09.845 --> 00:33:11.304
that I that I spoke to,
507
00:33:12.085 --> 00:33:15.450
as well as just resources on on how to contribute, how to get involved.
508
00:33:15.769 --> 00:33:17.789
And in fact, there's over 2,200
509
00:33:18.490 --> 00:33:23.070
creatives have joined that Slack. So it's just been a Damn. Phenomenal response.
510
00:33:23.690 --> 00:33:24.190
And
511
00:33:24.825 --> 00:33:25.325
many,
512
00:33:25.705 --> 00:33:28.125
many dozen are are actively involved.
513
00:33:28.585 --> 00:33:31.725
There's a regular community call every 3 weeks
514
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:53.170
along with a, an associated newsletter. So if you're if you're a little bit short on time but interested, I think reading that newsletter every 3 weeks and joining the community call, which has recently been hosted on Twitter Spaces, that's a good way to to learn more and and be involved. And then, yeah, if you're a builder, if you have a wallet or an application and would like review, there's also a,
515
00:33:53.890 --> 00:33:54.770
a design review,
516
00:33:56.145 --> 00:34:00.645
recurring meeting that that's every 3 weeks, and I just think it's a phenomenal resource.
517
00:34:01.105 --> 00:34:03.525
I I worked at Google for almost a decade
518
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.850
and worked at other tech companies, and it's the same kind of
519
00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:09.650
design review process that you'd see
520
00:34:09.950 --> 00:34:12.175
at a company like that yet in a
521
00:34:12.575 --> 00:34:13.295
open source,
522
00:34:14.815 --> 00:34:21.635
style and fashion, and it it's welcome for for anyone who who would like some feedback from from this talented community.
523
00:34:22.690 --> 00:34:23.190
Awesome.
524
00:34:25.490 --> 00:34:33.075
Yeah. I mean, I feel like especially among, like, the Bitcoin enthusiast crowd and the the more hardcore Bitcoiners, like, we tend to discount,
525
00:34:34.335 --> 00:34:37.394
the impact of good design. But if we're talking about,
526
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:40.720
onboarding the next 1000000000 Bitcoiners,
527
00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:44.559
it doesn't just stop at BDK or LDK
528
00:34:44.859 --> 00:34:47.465
or more wallets that are more powerful. Like,
529
00:34:48.425 --> 00:34:48.925
UX
530
00:34:49.225 --> 00:34:51.085
and design is a is a major
531
00:34:51.465 --> 00:34:53.165
is a major aspect of that.
532
00:34:53.625 --> 00:34:58.079
When you have new users trying to onboard onto these onto these wallets,
533
00:34:59.660 --> 00:35:05.599
like, you shouldn't you shouldn't need, like, an hour long 45 minute guide on how to use something,
534
00:35:06.815 --> 00:35:10.115
for a new user to to get comfortable. They should be able to,
535
00:35:10.735 --> 00:35:19.220
you know, open the app, open the wallet, and the design, the UX kind of guide them through through best practices and how to use it in a relatively easy fashion.
536
00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:21.220
Totally agree.
537
00:35:23.705 --> 00:35:27.165
So I don't know what else I have on this list that is spiral specific.
538
00:35:28.025 --> 00:35:31.485
Do you wanna we we already spoke about the grants a little bit.
539
00:35:32.250 --> 00:35:33.230
Is there anything
540
00:35:33.530 --> 00:35:50.505
Yeah. One more shout out maybe for for grants? Yeah. I mean, you can give as many shout outs as you want. I mean, like I said, you guys are funding so many people. I can't even keep track of it. So Yeah. Well, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go through all of them because that would be that would be an hour show in and of itself. But one more I wanted to mention is summer of Bitcoin,
541
00:35:51.810 --> 00:35:54.470
which is which I thought was just the it started
542
00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:57.750
this past year, and I just thought it was a phenomenal initiative.
543
00:35:59.145 --> 00:36:02.285
One of the biggest bottlenecks in open source Bitcoin development
544
00:36:02.825 --> 00:36:04.444
is is just finding
545
00:36:05.145 --> 00:36:10.030
talented people who are are interested and trained to to contribute.
546
00:36:12.010 --> 00:36:18.805
You know, funding and getting dollars is certainly one aspect, but it doesn't end there because you actually need to find
547
00:36:19.345 --> 00:36:24.830
the, you know, peep people to, to match those dollars with. And so some of Bitcoin's an initiative
548
00:36:25.930 --> 00:36:26.410
that,
549
00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:28.510
started by
550
00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:30.350
started in India,
551
00:36:30.650 --> 00:36:32.110
and they they
552
00:36:32.815 --> 00:36:35.795
opened up an application process, I think, to something like 5
553
00:36:36.095 --> 00:36:37.395
universities in India,
554
00:36:37.855 --> 00:36:38.915
got an incredible
555
00:36:39.750 --> 00:36:41.350
response. So this is for,
556
00:36:41.750 --> 00:36:42.810
a summer internship.
557
00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:46.730
And I think they they had over 4,000
558
00:36:47.865 --> 00:36:48.365
applications
559
00:36:48.825 --> 00:36:52.045
just for a handful of universities. So really incredible.
560
00:36:52.665 --> 00:36:56.765
So that was a huge process just to to narrow down. I think they had 50
561
00:36:57.520 --> 00:36:58.660
52 or 53
562
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.619
interns this past summer, and they match those interns
563
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:07.615
not at companies, but with open source Bitcoin projects. So LDK, BDK, Bitcoin Core, LND,
564
00:37:08.395 --> 00:37:17.030
and many other open source Bitcoin projects. And each intern, you know, you know, merged a PR or did some kind of project, and they got paid,
565
00:37:18.850 --> 00:37:25.255
a a stipend in in in Bitcoin. So just a great start to that because, historically, there's been
566
00:37:26.275 --> 00:37:27.095
almost nonexistent,
567
00:37:28.675 --> 00:37:30.695
open source Bitcoin development from
568
00:37:31.030 --> 00:37:37.530
people in India. And it's a country so rich in in in in, you know, talented engineers.
569
00:37:38.115 --> 00:37:40.934
So it was great to see some traction there,
570
00:37:41.714 --> 00:37:48.300
in in India. But the summer of Bitcoin program has global ambition. So they're they're coming back for for a,
571
00:37:48.600 --> 00:37:51.180
you know, 2nd 2nd year this this coming year,
572
00:37:52.200 --> 00:38:01.935
opening up their internship program to people all around the world. So Spiral's proud proud supporters of that. We're we're funding the the person who's running the show,
573
00:38:03.035 --> 00:38:03.435
and,
574
00:38:03.835 --> 00:38:04.895
funding the stipends.
575
00:38:05.510 --> 00:38:08.710
Chaincode has been phenomenal with this too. They've lent,
576
00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:11.930
I think, not just money, but also a lot of their time helping,
577
00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:17.454
helping that get up off the ground. So really happy with some of Bitcoin. People should check it out.
578
00:38:17.915 --> 00:38:18.815
For those
579
00:38:19.355 --> 00:38:22.174
listening who are are developers or potential
580
00:38:22.474 --> 00:38:22.974
mentors,
581
00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:27.160
the program would love to to match up mentors with with mentees.
582
00:38:28.020 --> 00:38:31.000
And if you're listening and you would like to apply,
583
00:38:31.300 --> 00:38:33.160
you can, go to the summer Bitcoin
584
00:38:33.505 --> 00:38:36.964
website to check it out. And what is that website?
585
00:38:38.385 --> 00:38:41.365
It is summer of bit summer of bitcoin dot org.
586
00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:42.559
Awesome.
587
00:38:44.540 --> 00:38:51.224
Before I forget, we have SB Design in the comments mentioning that the Bitcoin design community is doing a meet and greet on Thursday.
588
00:38:54.244 --> 00:38:57.305
There's a there's a link to an issue on their GitHub,
589
00:38:57.850 --> 00:39:02.670
that has the description there. I'm sure you can get to it by going bit to bitcoin dot design,
590
00:39:03.450 --> 00:39:04.350
if you're interested.
591
00:39:04.815 --> 00:39:10.115
We also have Ben, the Carmen, in com in the comments mentioning that they got 2 great contributors,
592
00:39:11.455 --> 00:39:15.080
through the summer Bitcoin initiative at shared bids. I also know,
593
00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:17.800
that Wiz,
594
00:39:18.660 --> 00:39:20.760
one of the lead maintainers of mempool.space,
595
00:39:21.220 --> 00:39:22.120
which I have
596
00:39:22.965 --> 00:39:24.185
streaming during every
597
00:39:25.205 --> 00:39:26.345
dispatch. Also,
598
00:39:27.045 --> 00:39:30.825
got some interns through that program. So it's just a really fantastic initiative,
599
00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:33.810
that really helped a lot of projects,
600
00:39:34.350 --> 00:39:35.490
throughout the industry.
601
00:39:38.110 --> 00:39:39.730
I also before we continue,
602
00:39:40.830 --> 00:39:44.845
we have we have MG MG Blaze on the comments asking,
603
00:39:46.105 --> 00:39:47.865
asking you, Steve, what
604
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:52.339
you know, you said you worked at at Google for 10 years.
605
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:57.140
How how has that been different than than your than your role at Spiral?
606
00:40:01.445 --> 00:40:06.870
Let's see. I mean, there's lots of differences. Maybe I'll start with, like, similarities. I I do feel like
607
00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:10.730
yeah. So I was at Google from 2006
608
00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:12.010
to 2015.
609
00:40:13.350 --> 00:40:24.270
And during that time, it still especially in in the first four years I was there, still very much a company that was engineering driven, engineering led.
610
00:40:24.970 --> 00:40:27.950
I had a product I I worked in product product management.
611
00:40:28.490 --> 00:40:28.990
And
612
00:40:29.370 --> 00:40:29.870
so
613
00:40:30.705 --> 00:40:35.525
the I worked in Google Maps on mobile phones. I was the the lead product manager for that.
614
00:40:36.305 --> 00:40:37.765
I had to work with engineers
615
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:40.460
across the world, lots of different,
616
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:41.579
locations,
617
00:40:42.680 --> 00:40:43.180
and,
618
00:40:44.040 --> 00:40:45.099
you know, to to
619
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:45.900
affect
620
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.885
the the road map or the user experience or improving the product,
621
00:40:50.345 --> 00:40:52.685
I had to build relationships with those developers,
622
00:40:53.545 --> 00:41:03.050
you know, among many other people. And that consensus building that process, I think that carries over to to Bitcoin and open source. It's even more extreme
623
00:41:03.635 --> 00:41:06.375
in in Bitcoin and and the centralized nature.
624
00:41:07.635 --> 00:41:13.460
But the skills that I developed doing that at Google did did transfer over and help.
625
00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:17.240
Let's see. And,
626
00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:22.715
yeah, how are they different? Well, I mean, I'm really lucky
627
00:41:23.095 --> 00:41:24.715
to be working on Spiral.
628
00:41:26.215 --> 00:41:27.995
Jack Dorsey and Block,
629
00:41:28.375 --> 00:41:30.395
you know, fund Spiral,
630
00:41:30.870 --> 00:41:32.570
but it's completely hands off.
631
00:41:33.270 --> 00:41:37.210
All all Jack asks of us is that we just help Bitcoin succeed.
632
00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:39.130
And
633
00:41:39.625 --> 00:41:43.964
Jack and no one at Block gives gives us, any direction or
634
00:41:44.265 --> 00:41:45.325
tells us no.
635
00:41:46.265 --> 00:41:50.580
So we're we're, yeah, it's really it's really amazing. So we're very fortunate.
636
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.305
Yeah. So even I mean, at Google, I had a lot of latter kids as well, but not not not to this not to this extreme.
637
00:41:59.805 --> 00:42:00.305
Awesome.
638
00:42:01.724 --> 00:42:02.705
I had no idea
639
00:42:03.565 --> 00:42:08.710
I I I had no idea that you were one of your main projects was Google Maps over there.
640
00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:14.555
Yeah. I was the lead lead product manager for Google Maps on mobile phones,
641
00:42:15.095 --> 00:42:16.075
for 4
642
00:42:16.535 --> 00:42:20.474
years. Really, really great app you guys built over there that I,
643
00:42:22.710 --> 00:42:23.849
unfortunately, cannot use,
644
00:42:24.630 --> 00:42:25.369
due to,
645
00:42:25.990 --> 00:42:26.890
privacy issues.
646
00:42:28.950 --> 00:42:29.270
But,
647
00:42:30.244 --> 00:42:35.765
that that was definitely one of the hard ones to cut out in my privacy journey. So I also worked on
648
00:42:37.180 --> 00:42:39.520
I was the lead BM for the location platform,
649
00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:43.760
Wi Fi and cell tower and and GPS, which has all kinds of interesting privacy,
650
00:42:44.300 --> 00:42:47.115
considerations. Wow. Thank thanks for that, Steve. Really.
651
00:42:49.575 --> 00:42:50.075
So
652
00:42:50.935 --> 00:42:52.635
while we're on the privacy topic,
653
00:42:53.630 --> 00:42:58.130
Trinity mentioned earlier and he just noticed that we mentioned privacy again.
654
00:42:58.910 --> 00:43:02.529
So he and he is a true ride or die freak. He's always in the comments.
655
00:43:04.915 --> 00:43:06.455
Is there anything specifically
656
00:43:06.835 --> 00:43:11.015
privacy focused that you guys are working on with respect to BDK and LDK?
657
00:43:13.540 --> 00:43:16.120
I mean, privacy is very important to us.
658
00:43:17.700 --> 00:43:20.585
You know, even outside of BDK, LDK, we we fund,
659
00:43:21.145 --> 00:43:23.645
we have a grant to Chris Vulture
660
00:43:24.025 --> 00:43:25.645
working on coins as well.
661
00:43:26.984 --> 00:43:29.165
And and Lightning Network in and of itself,
662
00:43:29.570 --> 00:43:31.910
if, if successful and adopted,
663
00:43:32.210 --> 00:43:33.510
I think it will improve,
664
00:43:34.850 --> 00:43:36.310
privacy for for Bitcoiners.
665
00:43:37.410 --> 00:43:38.215
And so
666
00:43:38.615 --> 00:43:39.435
but there's nothing
667
00:43:40.695 --> 00:43:47.515
actually, that's not that's not true. So one one thing that, it's not necessarily specific to LDK, but it's a it's a priority for the project
668
00:43:47.950 --> 00:43:48.769
is to
669
00:43:49.390 --> 00:43:51.890
do routing and path finding for lightning
670
00:43:52.509 --> 00:43:53.009
on
671
00:43:53.390 --> 00:43:59.865
the client device, so on a mobile device, which is which is which is a hard hard challenge because it's a lot of data
672
00:44:00.165 --> 00:44:02.265
that has to be downloaded to the to the phone.
673
00:44:03.045 --> 00:44:05.590
And if it's been a while since you've opened your wallet app,
674
00:44:06.150 --> 00:44:07.050
it can create
675
00:44:07.750 --> 00:44:11.370
latency issues. That that's the tension there and and the the technical challenge.
676
00:44:11.670 --> 00:44:19.950
So Aric on on our team is actively working on a project right now for to reduce the amount of information that needs to be downloaded to the phone.
677
00:44:20.670 --> 00:44:25.329
And Blockstream has done some work on this as well. So, hopefully, we we can we can get that
678
00:44:25.630 --> 00:44:28.450
to a sweet spot where it's still a good user experience.
679
00:44:28.905 --> 00:44:31.165
You don't have a, you know, a a
680
00:44:31.545 --> 00:44:37.405
a bad lag when opening the app, and yet the your your payment routing could be done on the phone, which definitely enhances
681
00:44:37.785 --> 00:44:46.510
your privacy. So, like, the alternative being if if you're not doing it that way, then you have a server handling that path finding. Right? And the server knows exactly
682
00:44:47.475 --> 00:44:49.575
how you're paying and where you're paying and whatnot.
683
00:44:49.955 --> 00:44:51.495
Yep. It would learn everything.
684
00:44:51.955 --> 00:44:53.175
There's also trampoline,
685
00:44:53.795 --> 00:44:58.880
payments, which I I I think, like, the folks at async and and others are are working on.
686
00:44:59.260 --> 00:45:04.400
It it's kind of a hybrid between the 2. So that that's another option that's being being developed.
687
00:45:05.065 --> 00:45:09.164
So so, again, like most of these trade offs, when when if you're trying to do noncustodial
688
00:45:09.464 --> 00:45:09.964
as
689
00:45:10.265 --> 00:45:17.220
self sovereign as possible on mobile, it's really hard to deliver a great user experience. So there's lots of, lots
690
00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.500
of belts and knobs and and Right.
691
00:45:20.928 --> 00:45:31.870
To, you know, to try to tune that. So I think we need to have dozens of experiments, including privacy to, to see what what's right. And it it'll improve over time too. We we might need to make some certain
692
00:45:32.250 --> 00:45:32.750
concessions
693
00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:37.310
over the next few years to have adequate user experience for certain users.
694
00:45:37.755 --> 00:45:40.575
But maybe in in, 3, 4, 5 years,
695
00:45:40.875 --> 00:45:44.015
we'll we'll make it, so you don't have to make certain sacrifices.
696
00:45:44.875 --> 00:45:47.055
Awesome. And I would just add that, you know,
697
00:45:47.550 --> 00:45:48.930
I have a ton of respect,
698
00:45:49.230 --> 00:45:51.890
for the work that Chris Belcher is doing and,
699
00:45:54.270 --> 00:45:57.395
you know, you guys you guys supporting him in in his coin
700
00:45:59.635 --> 00:46:00.535
swap work, really,
701
00:46:01.075 --> 00:46:04.935
personally, was very massive to me. It was it was a big deal to me to see a
702
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:12.039
a project out of a, you know, a large publicly traded financial company,
703
00:46:12.980 --> 00:46:15.960
funding directly financial privacy works. So
704
00:46:16.315 --> 00:46:21.295
I really I really did appreciate that. Oh, thank you. I mean, it's a good example of,
705
00:46:22.234 --> 00:46:23.375
our our corporate
706
00:46:23.789 --> 00:46:24.910
funder not not,
707
00:46:25.710 --> 00:46:26.210
having,
708
00:46:26.670 --> 00:46:28.369
much say in what we've heard. So,
709
00:46:29.710 --> 00:46:33.335
I I agree. I was really proud proud of that grant in particular
710
00:46:33.875 --> 00:46:40.990
and, looking forward to to to the future of that. Another thing, back to LDK and privacy, another thing that will be really important
711
00:46:41.370 --> 00:46:42.350
for next year
712
00:46:42.650 --> 00:46:48.990
within the broader Lightning ecosystem and LDK specifically is just integration of of Taproot in into Lightning.
713
00:46:49.625 --> 00:46:51.805
And there's a number of different touch points,
714
00:46:52.585 --> 00:46:53.805
and it's pretty pretty,
715
00:46:54.825 --> 00:46:55.885
involved, but
716
00:46:56.240 --> 00:46:58.819
that'll undoubtedly improve privacy as well.
717
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:03.140
Where, like, where do you see that
718
00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:03.940
specifically
719
00:47:05.385 --> 00:47:07.244
impacting the end user? And
720
00:47:09.945 --> 00:47:19.040
let's see. So for for privacy, I mean, I think most end users won't even won't even be aware of it, but they just happen to have a better privacy. You know, number 1,
721
00:47:19.660 --> 00:47:21.200
when closing lightning channels,
722
00:47:22.194 --> 00:47:25.015
by you know, when using Taproot, it'll look like,
723
00:47:25.315 --> 00:47:29.815
at least on a cooperative close, it'll look like any other payment, like a single signature
724
00:47:30.410 --> 00:47:33.470
and not be identifiable like it currently is.
725
00:47:34.570 --> 00:47:37.230
Where, like, obviously, it looks like a 2 of 2 multisig.
726
00:47:38.815 --> 00:47:39.315
Exactly.
727
00:47:40.654 --> 00:47:41.395
And then
728
00:47:42.015 --> 00:47:42.755
a transition
729
00:47:43.135 --> 00:47:44.115
from HTLCs
730
00:47:44.575 --> 00:47:45.555
to PTLCs
731
00:47:46.660 --> 00:47:47.400
is another,
732
00:47:48.020 --> 00:47:49.320
way to improve privacy.
733
00:47:49.700 --> 00:47:52.260
There's been a few papers written about privacy
734
00:47:53.565 --> 00:47:58.865
some privacy weaknesses and lightning, and and I think PTLCs can shore up at least 1 or 2 of those.
735
00:48:00.445 --> 00:48:01.885
And then something that,
736
00:48:02.590 --> 00:48:05.330
is less privacy related and more security related,
737
00:48:06.510 --> 00:48:09.090
I would like to see multisync supported
738
00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:14.734
in in lightning net network So that, for example, you could have a 2 of 2 of 3 wallet
739
00:48:15.195 --> 00:48:17.695
or any k event, but, like, for example, 2 of 3,
740
00:48:18.395 --> 00:48:26.640
and and have the lightning script support that. And and currently, it's only sing single signature. So I think something we'll get to a little bit later in the show is,
741
00:48:27.740 --> 00:48:31.224
future 2 of 3 type of wallets that that I'm excited about,
742
00:48:31.605 --> 00:48:38.420
and not only supporting that at the on chain Bitcoin protocol level, but also at Lightning Network. Yeah. I mean, that's gonna be
743
00:48:39.520 --> 00:48:47.675
I mean, that's our it would already be a massive benefit to people, but especially in the future. I mean, if if we do have people that are onboarding directly onto lightning.
744
00:48:49.015 --> 00:48:51.195
But, like, I did have I had a conversation
745
00:48:53.990 --> 00:48:57.770
with Eric Siri on on dispatch earlier who's working on,
746
00:48:59.750 --> 00:49:02.410
he's working on a a Chaumion e cache,
747
00:49:02.895 --> 00:49:04.835
federated Chaumion e cash implementation,
748
00:49:06.575 --> 00:49:07.955
for lightning wallet.
749
00:49:09.135 --> 00:49:10.755
And one of the big
750
00:49:11.590 --> 00:49:14.810
bottlenecks for him is that the actual lightning component
751
00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:17.050
is hard to multisig out,
752
00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:20.650
and he doesn't wanna build that on his own. So, hopefully,
753
00:49:21.625 --> 00:49:25.165
we can have that. And, like, right now in the wild, we have the Bitcoin Beach Wallet,
754
00:49:25.944 --> 00:49:28.365
which is trying to do, like, this almost, like, multisig,
755
00:49:30.329 --> 00:49:33.069
custodial wallet where the keys are held by
756
00:49:33.690 --> 00:49:34.190
a
757
00:49:34.490 --> 00:49:36.029
trusted members of the community.
758
00:49:36.490 --> 00:49:36.990
But
759
00:49:39.795 --> 00:49:45.974
they can't do that with the lightning portion even though the majority of payments are lightning. So they're just running a single sig
760
00:49:46.799 --> 00:50:01.335
custodial lightning wallet with the majority of the funds held in multisig on chain, and they're just basically writing it off. Like, if that wallet gets compromised or exit scammed or something, like, you only lose the lightning portion. You don't lose, the on chain portion.
761
00:50:01.955 --> 00:50:04.515
Got it. Yeah. There's there's no no doubt it's,
762
00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:07.640
there's gonna be a lot of demand for it.
763
00:50:08.260 --> 00:50:15.285
I've yet to even initiate any kind of conversations with protocol dev, so I I don't know how much discussion there's that we've been at that level. But,
764
00:50:15.845 --> 00:50:17.625
if Lao Lou or or Rusty
765
00:50:18.005 --> 00:50:18.505
are
766
00:50:20.165 --> 00:50:20.825
are are listening,
767
00:50:21.205 --> 00:50:23.545
I'll I'll be I'll be chatting with them soon.
768
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:24.619
Awesome.
769
00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:29.500
So so far, we've talked about LDK. We've talked about BDK.
770
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:31.500
We've talked about,
771
00:50:31.924 --> 00:50:36.585
various spiral grants. We've talked about the Bitcoin design community. What do you wanna talk about next?
772
00:50:37.285 --> 00:50:38.664
About, b trust.
773
00:50:39.045 --> 00:50:41.224
B trust. Let's go. What's b trust?
774
00:50:41.990 --> 00:50:42.650
Yeah. So,
775
00:50:43.910 --> 00:50:46.010
earlier this year, Jack Dorsey,
776
00:50:47.110 --> 00:50:47.610
announced
777
00:50:47.990 --> 00:50:49.530
a new Bitcoin
778
00:50:49.830 --> 00:50:50.330
endowment,
779
00:50:51.535 --> 00:50:55.555
that he and Jay z are funding and supporting called BTrust,
780
00:50:56.335 --> 00:50:57.635
that's intended to be
781
00:50:58.359 --> 00:51:00.779
an endowment for a a new entity
782
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:02.700
that's focused on Bitcoin,
783
00:51:03.160 --> 00:51:04.859
focused on free open source,
784
00:51:05.835 --> 00:51:06.655
software development.
785
00:51:07.275 --> 00:51:12.480
And Jack would be really a blind trust. So he'd be completely hands off,
786
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:14.580
with this. And and and
787
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:19.220
500 Bitcoin's a lot a lot of a lot of money, so it's a very very
788
00:51:19.600 --> 00:51:20.100
sizable
789
00:51:21.595 --> 00:51:22.095
gift.
790
00:51:22.715 --> 00:51:23.115
And,
791
00:51:23.915 --> 00:51:24.575
you know,
792
00:51:24.955 --> 00:51:25.455
I
793
00:51:25.835 --> 00:51:28.815
I I I don't I don't get the sense that the Bitcoin community really
794
00:51:29.200 --> 00:51:35.539
appreciates yet or is even aware of it, let alone appreciates how impactful this can be over the next 5 to 10 years.
795
00:51:37.775 --> 00:51:38.975
The the,
796
00:51:39.375 --> 00:51:41.635
process for for how to go about this,
797
00:51:42.575 --> 00:51:44.195
is to start with selecting
798
00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:45.840
a board,
799
00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:47.920
and
800
00:51:48.380 --> 00:51:50.000
and then be able to transition
801
00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:51.520
and sort of transition
802
00:51:52.495 --> 00:51:57.475
the Bitcoin and empower that board to go ahead and select a lead and build that a team
803
00:51:58.175 --> 00:51:58.495
to,
804
00:51:58.975 --> 00:52:00.030
to do great things.
805
00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:05.410
So we we put out a call for, applications for board members
806
00:52:05.790 --> 00:52:09.695
and got completely overwhelmed last spring with over 7,000
807
00:52:10.555 --> 00:52:11.055
applications.
808
00:52:11.435 --> 00:52:11.935
Wow.
809
00:52:12.395 --> 00:52:13.595
Yeah. It was it was,
810
00:52:14.955 --> 00:52:16.655
yeah, it it was a lot. So,
811
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:27.460
So you threw out all the applications, and then you decided to start it right. Well, that's it. I mean, one way you can go is, like, well, I've you know, I've heard of a few of these names. Let's just go with them. But we we wanted
812
00:52:28.115 --> 00:52:31.494
we wanted to take a a responsible approach where we
813
00:52:31.795 --> 00:52:33.095
really did go through,
814
00:52:33.555 --> 00:52:37.575
you know, all these applications and and have a really thorough process. So
815
00:52:37.900 --> 00:52:39.020
there's no way that,
816
00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:43.039
myself or one person could do this on their own. So, fortunately,
817
00:52:43.579 --> 00:52:46.400
we found an awesome volunteer team.
818
00:52:47.105 --> 00:52:49.045
Carolee and Jonas from Chaincode.
819
00:52:49.825 --> 00:52:51.665
Nice. We're probably familiar with them.
820
00:52:52.225 --> 00:52:54.565
Jacob, who is at Lightning Labs,
821
00:52:56.430 --> 00:53:03.115
Haley, who's on my team, and, Lawrence, who's on the Cash App team. So the the 6 of us,
822
00:53:03.835 --> 00:53:07.295
have been working on this for the past, I don't know, 5, 6 months,
823
00:53:08.715 --> 00:53:09.115
to,
824
00:53:09.675 --> 00:53:15.560
you know, there were multiple filters and levels through this application process. And, ultimately, we did,
825
00:53:16.500 --> 00:53:20.440
a couple video interviews with 30 or so candidates
826
00:53:22.445 --> 00:53:24.865
and narrowed it down to about half a dozen
827
00:53:25.165 --> 00:53:28.065
that just recently met with, with Jack.
828
00:53:29.165 --> 00:53:30.270
And we're we're,
829
00:53:30.710 --> 00:53:35.610
and we've and yeah. And we've so the the board has now been selected. They've been notified,
830
00:53:35.910 --> 00:53:37.770
and we'll we'll announce soon,
831
00:53:38.275 --> 00:53:40.695
who the board members are. But How soon, Steve?
832
00:53:42.755 --> 00:53:53.820
Hopefully hopefully, within hopefully, before the end of the year. That that that's the that's the the hope. But, I I, yeah, I can't say I can't say enough about the applicants in in this process. I was just,
833
00:53:54.915 --> 00:53:58.535
really blown away by the the the the quality of applicants
834
00:53:59.235 --> 00:53:59.895
and their
835
00:54:00.355 --> 00:54:03.890
understand depth of understanding and love and care of Bitcoin.
836
00:54:04.830 --> 00:54:10.850
People That's awesome. All over Africa and India and just Middle East, all over the world. So
837
00:54:11.235 --> 00:54:12.775
that was a really positive experience.
838
00:54:13.715 --> 00:54:17.955
Yeah. So the hope is that beginning in January of the New Year, they they,
839
00:54:18.275 --> 00:54:20.540
they can get get started, and
840
00:54:21.160 --> 00:54:21.480
and,
841
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:28.780
and good things will will come. And and correct me if I'm wrong, but Beatrice is primarily focused on Africa. Right?
842
00:54:29.204 --> 00:54:29.704
The,
843
00:54:31.765 --> 00:54:34.345
Africa and India is what has been
844
00:54:34.885 --> 00:54:35.385
communicated.
845
00:54:37.420 --> 00:54:38.160
You know, I
846
00:54:38.940 --> 00:54:40.880
think, it's a little bit TBD
847
00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:44.995
and and up to the board to to figure that out.
848
00:54:45.795 --> 00:54:46.695
You could argue,
849
00:54:48.115 --> 00:54:51.015
that maybe, you know, Africa in of itself
850
00:54:51.475 --> 00:54:53.735
is a big enough opportunity and challenge
851
00:54:54.260 --> 00:54:57.000
to, to just focus on on one continent.
852
00:54:58.180 --> 00:55:01.320
You could argue to to do both. You could argue
853
00:55:02.214 --> 00:55:04.474
to expand to to other important
854
00:55:05.175 --> 00:55:13.240
emerging and developing markets like South America and Central America and Southeast Asia, etcetera. So I think I think the the board will have
855
00:55:13.700 --> 00:55:16.279
to evaluate that and figure out the the the best plan.
856
00:55:16.579 --> 00:55:19.640
But, I mean, in general, if you're funding open source projects
857
00:55:20.995 --> 00:55:23.895
that are focused on the developing world, I mean,
858
00:55:24.355 --> 00:55:29.495
even if their focus is on a specific geographical location, I imagine they'll have applications everywhere.
859
00:55:30.560 --> 00:55:39.380
This is the Internet. That would be that would be I mean, just just like even the stuff that Spiral does, or changes. You know, you know, hope hopefully, it helps everyone around the world.
860
00:55:39.925 --> 00:55:40.985
Yeah. I would expect
861
00:55:41.285 --> 00:55:43.225
what you you just said to be true.
862
00:55:43.845 --> 00:55:44.825
At the same time,
863
00:55:46.619 --> 00:55:49.440
I would also hope and expect that there's there's,
864
00:55:50.619 --> 00:55:53.680
there are things that are done specifically to enable
865
00:55:54.135 --> 00:55:54.635
the
866
00:55:55.735 --> 00:56:03.195
the cultivation and and growth and development of of of people in in Africa and India working on Bitcoin
867
00:56:03.530 --> 00:56:05.550
and and also just better understanding
868
00:56:05.850 --> 00:56:07.070
local market needs
869
00:56:07.690 --> 00:56:11.790
and challenges that don't exist maybe in Right. Or, you know, western,
870
00:56:12.464 --> 00:56:13.525
other western countries.
871
00:56:14.385 --> 00:56:16.405
Right. And, I mean, we don't wanna
872
00:56:17.825 --> 00:56:23.010
not trying to put all Africans and all Indians in the same boat. There's obviously different nuances,
873
00:56:24.109 --> 00:56:35.425
depending on localities and situation. There's a exactly. There's 54 countries in Africa. So even even just focusing on Africa, it's incredibly diverse with a lot of challenges. And so,
874
00:56:36.365 --> 00:56:42.089
yeah, so so the board will be have a lot of work cut out for them, but I think it's a really exciting opportunity for for for them.
875
00:56:42.710 --> 00:56:45.369
I mean, one of the coolest parts of BTrust to me,
876
00:56:47.035 --> 00:56:50.495
is is this idea that the endowment is in Bitcoin.
877
00:56:52.795 --> 00:56:54.395
So, like, who even knows
878
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:57.460
I mean, when when they made the announcement,
879
00:56:59.680 --> 00:57:00.340
I think
880
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.060
they made the what was it? It was, like, February of last year or January of last year?
881
00:57:05.825 --> 00:57:13.205
Yeah. I think the price of Bitcoin is about the same as it was on the No. No. No. No. It was, like, 24 k or something. 25 k
882
00:57:14.750 --> 00:57:15.490
at the time.
883
00:57:17.790 --> 00:57:18.290
So
884
00:57:18.830 --> 00:57:22.290
the endowments already doubled in in in purchasing power.
885
00:57:24.655 --> 00:57:28.995
Well, it could be And who knows? So the coin market cap right now is saying that Bitcoin is $789,000,000,000
886
00:57:31.055 --> 00:57:34.670
per coin. So Oh, shit. So that endowment's huge now.
887
00:57:35.050 --> 00:57:38.110
We might as well just end the show right now. We we can all retire.
888
00:57:39.345 --> 00:57:48.405
I'm sure Twitter's freaking out about that. And, we just have our dispatch blinders on right now. We don't even when I first started the show, I would show the live price, but now we just
889
00:57:48.730 --> 00:57:51.310
show what matters. So you have a live view of the mempool.
890
00:57:53.050 --> 00:57:57.390
So, I mean, I don't really care where the price is right now. We can we can check after,
891
00:57:58.175 --> 00:58:01.475
but that it's pretty cool when you start to think about it. Like, so you take,
892
00:58:02.575 --> 00:58:06.515
so it was it was Jack and Jay z. They each put in 250 Bitcoin
893
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:09.020
at whatever price it was at the time,
894
00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:13.100
which I'm telling you, I'm pretty sure it was, like, 25 k or 30 k.
895
00:58:15.135 --> 00:58:15.875
And then
896
00:58:16.255 --> 00:58:18.115
BTrust is gonna be pulling
897
00:58:19.055 --> 00:58:20.115
from that,
898
00:58:21.694 --> 00:58:24.890
is gonna be pulling from that endowment but keeping it in
899
00:58:25.849 --> 00:58:26.589
Bitcoin. So,
900
00:58:28.089 --> 00:58:28.589
presumably,
901
00:58:28.970 --> 00:58:35.985
like, we could end up in a situation, like, if if we're correct and and Bitcoin does increase in price with adoption
902
00:58:36.845 --> 00:58:37.744
and as I,
903
00:58:38.525 --> 00:58:41.505
eloquently state sometimes that it's designed to pump forever,
904
00:58:41.850 --> 00:58:44.270
we can end up in a situation where this endowment
905
00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:49.310
basically never runs out. That it's just a it's a forever endowment,
906
00:58:49.755 --> 00:58:52.734
which is pretty insane to start to try and wrap your head around.
907
00:58:53.355 --> 00:58:55.994
Yeah. Exactly. So a a a big,
908
00:58:56.474 --> 00:59:00.490
question the board will have to answer is how to manage that treasury,
909
00:59:02.230 --> 00:59:09.425
whether to keep all of it in Bitcoin or convert some to, like, a stable coin or something. Oh, I didn't realize that.
910
00:59:09.725 --> 00:59:14.625
Well, the I mean, these are the I'm just these are possibilities. They they they'll need to determine that.
911
00:59:14.980 --> 00:59:20.920
But they're allowed to do that. The board can do whatever they want. They can just fire somebody all if they want. Yeah.
912
00:59:21.940 --> 00:59:24.885
Jack is very much a believer in impact you know,
913
00:59:25.445 --> 00:59:31.225
putting Right. Putting, the right people in place and then really entrusting them. So the the board's gonna have incredible,
914
00:59:32.869 --> 00:59:34.730
you know, you know, responsibility
915
00:59:35.349 --> 00:59:37.690
for this. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be up to them.
916
00:59:39.510 --> 00:59:40.070
I mean, I
917
00:59:40.790 --> 00:59:50.555
like, it's my own expectation that that most or all would be kept in Bitcoin like you're saying. Yeah. That's what I understand. Absolutely has the potential to, you know, appreciate a lot.
918
00:59:51.750 --> 01:00:02.255
And, but, yeah, they'll have also have to determine, like, what what the annual budgets are, how quickly to draw down on that endowment. You could certainly manage it so that it it definitely is perpetual and never never runs out.
919
01:00:02.875 --> 01:00:05.535
Is that the right call or not? Maybe, maybe not.
920
01:00:06.770 --> 01:00:09.590
But it but it should certainly be very long lasting,
921
01:00:10.610 --> 01:00:11.670
in any case.
922
01:00:12.690 --> 01:00:14.150
Like, I I feel like
923
01:00:14.934 --> 01:00:18.474
like, when my grandkids are are reading about, like, the newest,
924
01:00:19.494 --> 01:00:30.109
b trust initiative, like, if they have less than a 100 Bitcoin in their treasury at that point, then they fuck something up, but that's just fine. Yeah. I I I like that. That that's a good, that's a good measuring stick for
925
01:00:30.650 --> 01:00:32.015
for for Betrust in the board.
926
01:00:34.095 --> 01:00:35.394
Okay. So
927
01:00:36.335 --> 01:00:38.035
what should we discuss next, Steve?
928
01:00:39.454 --> 01:00:48.619
Let's see. Should we talk about the mining initiative at Block? Yeah. Let's talk about this mining initiative. This this is the the the open source design for an ASIC?
929
01:00:49.705 --> 01:00:50.905
Yeah. Yeah. I
930
01:00:51.465 --> 01:00:51.965
so
931
01:00:52.265 --> 01:00:55.725
everyone should be aware. Again, I I I I'm on the spiral team,
932
01:00:57.700 --> 01:01:01.320
very much team Bitcoin outward facing. So I'm I'm not on,
933
01:01:02.420 --> 01:01:04.040
the mining team at Block.
934
01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:14.944
But I do I have worked been working closely with them. I'm really passionate about what they're doing, so I'm happy to share share a little bit of what they're up to beyond what, Jack tweeted a month or so ago.
935
01:01:17.430 --> 01:01:17.930
So,
936
01:01:18.790 --> 01:01:21.049
yeah, so Block is getting into
937
01:01:21.349 --> 01:01:23.210
Bitcoin mining in a in a pretty
938
01:01:23.775 --> 01:01:26.355
substantial way, which I'm I'm excited about.
939
01:01:26.815 --> 01:01:27.135
And,
940
01:01:28.975 --> 01:01:34.210
but the, you know, one observation is is that the ASIC chips themselves,
941
01:01:35.470 --> 01:01:36.609
there's very few
942
01:01:37.230 --> 01:01:37.730
suppliers.
943
01:01:39.390 --> 01:01:41.010
They're geographically concentrated,
944
01:01:41.914 --> 01:01:42.894
and they operate
945
01:01:43.275 --> 01:01:47.295
in a way that doesn't necessarily lend itself to optimizing
946
01:01:47.595 --> 01:01:48.494
for an open
947
01:01:48.795 --> 01:01:49.295
ecosystem
948
01:01:49.674 --> 01:01:51.799
and really sort of growing,
949
01:01:53.460 --> 01:02:00.839
growing the the number of of partners and different companies in the space that can come up with cool new designs for mining rigs.
950
01:02:01.685 --> 01:02:02.825
So with that opportunity,
951
01:02:04.965 --> 01:02:09.145
the the the team at Block is interested and is exploring,
952
01:02:10.359 --> 01:02:11.740
doing a custom basic,
953
01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:13.099
chip
954
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:14.059
themselves,
955
01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:15.980
as well as
956
01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:18.539
a mining rig design,
957
01:02:19.474 --> 01:02:21.815
and doing it in as open a way as possible
958
01:02:22.194 --> 01:02:23.734
to enable other companies,
959
01:02:25.154 --> 01:02:27.095
to build their own mining rigs as well.
960
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:32.580
Yeah. I mean, I think this is a fantastic initiative. I mean, I I
961
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.700
I think you somehow understated the current issue
962
01:02:38.365 --> 01:02:44.545
of of ASIC manufacturers. I mean, there's 2 main ASIC manufacturers right now, and that's Bitmain and Microbt.
963
01:02:45.359 --> 01:02:49.060
Microbt makes the What's Miners. Bitmain makes the Antminers.
964
01:02:51.359 --> 01:02:52.980
They're both out of Asia.
965
01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:54.820
The
966
01:02:56.625 --> 01:03:00.165
the the the project lead, the founder of Microbt
967
01:03:00.545 --> 01:03:04.405
is actually the, like, one of the ex main guys of Bitmain.
968
01:03:05.970 --> 01:03:09.910
So in a lot of ways, they're kind of one company that was split into 2.
969
01:03:11.650 --> 01:03:14.150
And it would be great to see more competition there.
970
01:03:14.885 --> 01:03:18.265
I I my understanding too was, like, this idea
971
01:03:18.805 --> 01:03:20.325
that it was almost more of a
972
01:03:21.525 --> 01:03:26.000
the focus was gonna be more on, like, a consumer focus level, like,
973
01:03:27.740 --> 01:03:32.960
a a model for an ASIC that, like, all our ASICs nowadays are, like, basically designed,
974
01:03:34.185 --> 01:03:37.965
to be put in in a warehouse. They're, like, made for industrial applications.
975
01:03:39.785 --> 01:03:46.350
Obviously, on dispatch, we've gone through many times about how to how to use them for home mining, and it can be done.
976
01:03:46.730 --> 01:03:51.950
But at their core, they're, like, they're basically designed to be placed in server racks at a warehouse.
977
01:03:52.485 --> 01:03:52.985
Am
978
01:03:53.445 --> 01:03:54.665
I wrong that
979
01:03:55.685 --> 01:03:56.185
that,
980
01:03:56.805 --> 01:03:58.805
the initiative by the block is,
981
01:03:59.685 --> 01:04:02.800
the initiative by block, I guess there's no the by block,
982
01:04:03.339 --> 01:04:12.785
is, focused more on, like like, more of a retail kind of environment? Or am I asking Both right, right, and wrong. So definitely includes that,
983
01:04:13.164 --> 01:04:16.224
which I think is super exciting, but not exclusively
984
01:04:16.525 --> 01:04:19.170
that. So at this point, it's early enough,
985
01:04:21.250 --> 01:04:21.750
and
986
01:04:22.290 --> 01:04:25.590
that that that it's being explored both for, like, industrial
987
01:04:26.050 --> 01:04:26.790
farm mining
988
01:04:27.355 --> 01:04:29.935
as well as individual home mining.
989
01:04:30.955 --> 01:04:36.175
Also looking at what can be done, what can be optimized for sustainable energy.
990
01:04:36.750 --> 01:04:39.010
In particular, intermittent sustainable energy
991
01:04:39.630 --> 01:04:40.770
has, you know, certain
992
01:04:41.390 --> 01:04:44.290
unique challenges, both the economic model,
993
01:04:45.325 --> 01:04:45.985
but also
994
01:04:46.685 --> 01:04:51.265
the, the equipment itself. If it's gonna be turned on and off frequently,
995
01:04:51.780 --> 01:04:56.200
it needs to be designed to, to support a lot more cycles than maybe
996
01:04:56.500 --> 01:04:58.200
some of the existing equipment.
997
01:04:58.579 --> 01:05:06.895
Yeah. I mean, I'm already hearing about the existing equipment. Like, you don't wanna turn it off and on much. Like, your the the lifetime of your miner is gonna go down substantially.
998
01:05:07.835 --> 01:05:08.655
Right. So
999
01:05:09.150 --> 01:05:10.369
definitely design consideration
1000
01:05:11.150 --> 01:05:14.369
from, the the team at Block will be will be that.
1001
01:05:14.910 --> 01:05:18.915
And the and the firmware and the software as well, being able to to,
1002
01:05:20.175 --> 01:05:20.735
boot up
1003
01:05:21.295 --> 01:05:23.555
be able to re you know, reboot very quickly,
1004
01:05:25.215 --> 01:05:30.440
will be will be important. You know, the folks at at brains have done already done good work in that area,
1005
01:05:31.460 --> 01:05:32.920
so which which is fantastic.
1006
01:05:33.460 --> 01:05:46.150
So, anyway, that that that'll be an important consideration. But I but I think, yeah, the the the op the environment we're operating right now, it we've spoken to a number of companies who want who see an opportunity in the market
1007
01:05:46.549 --> 01:05:49.930
to design a mining rig, the actual, like, industrial design
1008
01:05:50.630 --> 01:05:51.349
and the,
1009
01:05:51.910 --> 01:06:00.415
the systems design itself, They they see an opportunity in the market to optimize and customize that, but they're unable to source ASIC chips
1010
01:06:00.875 --> 01:06:01.945
Right. Roughly.
1011
01:06:02.330 --> 01:06:08.910
So so the I we we think there's a huge opportunity. If you can just sell ASIC chips to partners
1012
01:06:09.530 --> 01:06:10.350
in the ecosystem,
1013
01:06:10.845 --> 01:06:22.359
we're gonna see a great expansion of mining into to new segments and meeting new needs that are not met right now by 1 or 2 suppliers. Well, like, a key aspect of their business model is to keep everything proprietary.
1014
01:06:22.820 --> 01:06:23.720
Like, you mentioned
1015
01:06:24.500 --> 01:06:28.040
that I keep their chip designs very close to their chest. Like, nothing's open.
1016
01:06:28.835 --> 01:06:31.174
The firmware is all closed source. Like, you mentioned,
1017
01:06:32.515 --> 01:06:34.535
brains with 2 eyes by Slush,
1018
01:06:35.154 --> 01:06:38.420
who've had many of their team members on dispatch in the past.
1019
01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:43.059
They have their own open source firmware that you can then flash on to Bitmain,
1020
01:06:43.839 --> 01:06:44.339
ASICs.
1021
01:06:44.895 --> 01:06:46.995
But out of the box, it's all closed.
1022
01:06:48.255 --> 01:06:56.530
So And and if you chat with the guys at Brain, do you you'll you know, they'll talk about how challenging it can be to,
1023
01:06:58.590 --> 01:07:03.795
to build that firmware because it's such a closed system. So Yeah. They almost have to hack their way onto it, basically.
1024
01:07:04.335 --> 01:07:11.680
I think they do quite a bit you know, they have to do reverse engineering. So the the the plan from block is to be the opposite of that. Be very open,
1025
01:07:12.140 --> 01:07:14.160
be as open as possible. So
1026
01:07:14.540 --> 01:07:15.920
the any kind of
1027
01:07:16.300 --> 01:07:17.599
mining rig designs
1028
01:07:17.945 --> 01:07:26.685
that come from block, the hope and expectation is that they'll be open source so others can leverage those designs and use that. The the any chip,
1029
01:07:27.430 --> 01:07:28.970
that's produced by,
1030
01:07:30.150 --> 01:07:33.770
Block, the data sheets are intended to be to be open.
1031
01:07:35.055 --> 01:07:41.395
But is Block gonna actually be selling miners, or are they basically just putting the specs out there for other people to build them?
1032
01:07:42.620 --> 01:07:47.440
I mean, at this point, you know, there's nothing definitive. So Right. Right. All about exploration. But, definitely,
1033
01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:50.560
looking at both is is of interest.
1034
01:07:51.020 --> 01:07:53.805
Produce you know, producing a chip and selling the chip,
1035
01:07:54.525 --> 01:07:57.265
also producing a mining rig and selling that mining rig.
1036
01:07:57.645 --> 01:07:58.545
You could imagine,
1037
01:07:59.540 --> 01:08:00.600
maybe decides,
1038
01:08:01.700 --> 01:08:04.920
that they can produce a really great product for
1039
01:08:07.065 --> 01:08:08.205
for intermittent,
1040
01:08:09.145 --> 01:08:10.285
renewable energy,
1041
01:08:10.984 --> 01:08:14.285
mining, whether it be solar or wind. And so they
1042
01:08:14.910 --> 01:08:21.410
they they might build a a rig around that and sell to that market while still selling the chip and any kind of open source
1043
01:08:23.685 --> 01:08:27.945
and provide any kind of open source system designs to other other partners who
1044
01:08:28.405 --> 01:08:34.330
build mining rigs for other other markets or even the same markets and and compete. So anything's on the table there.
1045
01:08:35.430 --> 01:08:37.210
It's still early days very much.
1046
01:08:37.590 --> 01:08:40.890
It's still early days. One one thing that I should mention that
1047
01:08:41.615 --> 01:08:45.795
a lot a lot of folks probably have no idea this this, is the case, but
1048
01:08:46.175 --> 01:08:47.375
Block actually has
1049
01:08:47.935 --> 01:08:51.940
this is not, like, completely out of the blue that Block would do hardware.
1050
01:08:52.960 --> 01:09:01.495
And I think most people are familiar. Square has always made hardware, in the pay pay payment From the very beginning. From the very beginning. So hardware is in the DNA of the company.
1051
01:09:02.035 --> 01:09:04.535
But even ASICs, for 6 years now,
1052
01:09:04.995 --> 01:09:06.055
Square has built,
1053
01:09:06.449 --> 01:09:18.034
designed, and built custom ASICs for their payment terminals. So so the company already has ASIC engineers and all the experience that comes Really? Like, the chips the chips in the Square payment terminals are
1054
01:09:18.415 --> 01:09:22.755
I mean, in the I guess those are still Square payment terminals, are made by block?
1055
01:09:24.110 --> 01:09:27.489
Yeah. Some some of the chips are. Yep. Wow. I didn't realize that.
1056
01:09:27.869 --> 01:09:37.375
Yeah. So there the the company already has, you know, engineering chops and expertise in that area, working with foundries and just all of that. So it's it's not like
1057
01:09:38.400 --> 01:09:41.940
it's not like a software company in Silicon Valley just deciding to
1058
01:09:42.320 --> 01:09:43.139
to do chips.
1059
01:09:43.519 --> 01:09:47.595
Having said that, there's a tremendous amount of knowledge needed,
1060
01:09:48.295 --> 01:09:55.515
to do Bitcoin mining rigs. And, so, you know, the the team's gonna have to learn a lot. The team is very interested in in partnering with others.
1061
01:09:56.140 --> 01:09:59.200
So that if we we've already been speaking to a a bunch of companies,
1062
01:09:59.900 --> 01:10:02.400
in the space, but, if there's others who
1063
01:10:02.935 --> 01:10:09.675
who are excited about the opportunity around a more open ecosystem for for mining hardware and and and and software,
1064
01:10:10.215 --> 01:10:10.715
then
1065
01:10:11.530 --> 01:10:13.070
we we would love to speak to them.
1066
01:10:13.770 --> 01:10:19.550
I wonder if we have, like, freaks that don't even remember that that they're they're predated,
1067
01:10:21.715 --> 01:10:24.614
that they never had any experience with the little headphone jack,
1068
01:10:26.034 --> 01:10:31.940
Square credit card readers where you just, like, plug I mean, there's probably some freaks that don't even know what a headphone jack is nowadays.
1069
01:10:34.080 --> 01:10:41.045
Yeah. Exactly. That's funny. But it's pretty amazing it's pretty amazing how those square those square terminals are everywhere now.
1070
01:10:41.585 --> 01:10:44.005
So many businesses are using those square terminals.
1071
01:10:47.380 --> 01:10:48.920
Last thing I'd mentioned on mining,
1072
01:10:49.540 --> 01:10:53.800
stratum v 2 is is a next generation mining protocol. Yes.
1073
01:10:54.180 --> 01:10:58.515
Yeah. It's something that that Brains has done a lot of work on in Slush Pool.
1074
01:10:59.055 --> 01:11:11.820
Matt Corallo and the Spiral team worked worked with them to help define it. Matt had previously worked on a a protocol called Better Hash. That was like his he proposed it first, I think, before stratum v 2 was even a thing.
1075
01:11:12.265 --> 01:11:15.485
Yeah. I I I believe that's the the right chronology.
1076
01:11:16.265 --> 01:11:18.525
And so stratum b 2, I think, has
1077
01:11:19.120 --> 01:11:22.480
most or all of what Matt was hoping to to see in Betterhash. And,
1078
01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:30.625
one thing Spiral's done, we we have a a grant to a developer that goes by FI 3,
1079
01:11:31.485 --> 01:11:34.625
and he has been working for almost,
1080
01:11:35.325 --> 01:11:38.150
almost a year now on an a neutral
1081
01:11:38.530 --> 01:11:41.170
open source implementation of Stratum b 2 that,
1082
01:11:42.850 --> 01:11:46.795
that can be used by any mining pool, any miner in the space. And
1083
01:11:47.175 --> 01:11:59.200
and so the the anything that the block team's doing with respect to to mining rigs and chips will will definitely have Stratum b 2 in mind and be optimizing for that. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, right now,
1084
01:12:00.060 --> 01:12:00.880
if you buy
1085
01:12:01.980 --> 01:12:02.880
a ASIC
1086
01:12:03.225 --> 01:12:05.885
out of the box, whether that's Bitmain or MicroBT,
1087
01:12:06.425 --> 01:12:08.205
you cannot use Stratum V2.
1088
01:12:10.185 --> 01:12:13.005
If you get a Bitmain miner that supports
1089
01:12:13.449 --> 01:12:14.030
brains firmware,
1090
01:12:16.010 --> 01:12:17.070
open source firmware,
1091
01:12:17.690 --> 01:12:27.324
then you can flash brains onto it, and then you can use Stratum v 2 with slush, but no other pools. So it's definitely very much early days there. If we can get more adoption, that would be fantastic.
1092
01:12:28.184 --> 01:12:28.684
Absolutely.
1093
01:12:29.065 --> 01:12:34.260
Yeah. So there's, you know, I think there's a number of opportunities to improve decentralization
1094
01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:35.540
within mining.
1095
01:12:36.320 --> 01:12:37.620
1, at the chip level,
1096
01:12:38.574 --> 01:12:39.715
2, just geographically,
1097
01:12:41.375 --> 01:12:42.915
you know, it would be fantastic
1098
01:12:44.015 --> 01:12:47.475
if, Block and and maybe others who are getting into the
1099
01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:53.940
into the mining space like Blockstream is as well. But just more and more, like you said, more competition, but also more,
1100
01:12:54.480 --> 01:12:55.940
supply chains that are resilient,
1101
01:12:56.365 --> 01:12:59.025
not dependent on one particular country or region
1102
01:12:59.485 --> 01:13:00.785
will really help decentralization,
1103
01:13:01.725 --> 01:13:04.699
and the adoption of strategy too will help as
1104
01:13:05.040 --> 01:13:05.540
well.
1105
01:13:05.880 --> 01:13:08.219
No. I mean, I think it's a noble cause,
1106
01:13:10.360 --> 01:13:13.000
and and it's sorely needed. I do wonder,
1107
01:13:14.345 --> 01:13:18.925
I mean, mining is a massively competitive space. I do wonder,
1108
01:13:20.025 --> 01:13:24.679
how those dynamics end up working out if there's nothing proprietary there between chips.
1109
01:13:25.940 --> 01:13:27.159
It it should be interesting.
1110
01:13:28.179 --> 01:13:29.640
Yeah. I think well,
1111
01:13:29.945 --> 01:13:39.005
you know, it's to be determined what what the exact business model is. But Yeah. I mean, because currently, there's not that many chip manufacturers, I think there's actually Right. Attractive
1112
01:13:39.780 --> 01:13:41.480
attractive revenue and potential
1113
01:13:42.420 --> 01:13:44.600
for the chip, you know, the chips themselves.
1114
01:13:45.700 --> 01:13:53.455
Yeah. I mean, if you can undercut prices I mean and, also, there's an ideological bent to a to a certain extent if you can get it close enough.
1115
01:13:54.155 --> 01:14:02.500
Yeah. I I if if if we're correct in this view that an open system will an ecosystem will will be much better
1116
01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:04.340
than a closed system,
1117
01:14:05.265 --> 01:14:06.864
I think, you know, the,
1118
01:14:07.705 --> 01:14:08.205
the
1119
01:14:08.545 --> 01:14:09.364
those participating
1120
01:14:09.665 --> 01:14:11.605
in this open ecosystem will be
1121
01:14:12.140 --> 01:14:14.380
will can all win and and will will,
1122
01:14:14.780 --> 01:14:16.160
can all can all profit.
1123
01:14:17.500 --> 01:14:17.980
Awesome.
1124
01:14:18.540 --> 01:14:22.925
We have said Trinity in the comments and, like, feel free to tell us both to fuck off.
1125
01:14:23.485 --> 01:14:26.945
But he he's asking, is Spiral working with Square to integrate,
1126
01:14:27.325 --> 01:14:29.425
Bitcoin lightning into Square,
1127
01:14:30.205 --> 01:14:31.425
point of sale terminals?
1128
01:14:34.340 --> 01:14:35.560
I've so
1129
01:14:35.940 --> 01:14:38.180
nothing I can comment on specifically, but,
1130
01:14:38.740 --> 01:14:43.395
yes. There's yes. In the sense that we're definitely talking with teams at
1131
01:14:43.695 --> 01:14:44.195
Block
1132
01:14:44.655 --> 01:14:48.835
to integrate Lightning in any software we're working, working on, BDK, LDK.
1133
01:14:49.300 --> 01:14:50.360
But having said that,
1134
01:14:51.380 --> 01:14:57.640
I have had many conversations this year with folks at Coinbase and Kraken and Blockchain dotcom and
1135
01:14:57.994 --> 01:15:02.655
many, many companies in the space, small you know, smaller projects as well, open source projects,
1136
01:15:03.034 --> 01:15:04.554
about adopting our software. So
1137
01:15:14.465 --> 01:15:16.565
with companies who would be considered competitors
1138
01:15:17.025 --> 01:15:18.885
to to Cash App and Block.
1139
01:15:20.225 --> 01:15:23.525
We're we're just optimizing for the adoption of of Bitcoin. So,
1140
01:15:24.250 --> 01:15:28.670
yeah, we're we're talking to a numb number of different companies and projects to to adopt,
1141
01:15:29.449 --> 01:15:31.389
BDK l d and and LDK.
1142
01:15:31.975 --> 01:15:32.475
Awesome.
1143
01:15:33.335 --> 01:15:39.835
Appreciate you, answering that question to that extent. I was not going to ask it unless the Trinity brought it up
1144
01:15:41.619 --> 01:15:45.159
because I have a lot of respect for you, and I knew it was putting you on the spot.
1145
01:15:47.059 --> 01:15:54.025
So I think we should move on to this next topic, which is a topic that, personally, I am extremely excited about,
1146
01:15:55.205 --> 01:15:56.025
which is,
1147
01:15:56.405 --> 01:15:56.905
this
1148
01:15:57.205 --> 01:15:58.985
this hardware wallet initiative.
1149
01:16:00.730 --> 01:16:03.390
Absolutely. You wanna go in further freaks?
1150
01:16:04.170 --> 01:16:06.110
Yeah. So I think it was June.
1151
01:16:07.505 --> 01:16:11.125
I think it was at the Bitcoin conference, in Miami that,
1152
01:16:12.145 --> 01:16:15.925
Block announced or Square at the time announced a hardware wallet project,
1153
01:16:17.410 --> 01:16:19.650
which I I'm equally super excited about.
1154
01:16:20.610 --> 01:16:23.190
One one thing to to make clear is that,
1155
01:16:24.635 --> 01:16:29.775
it's not just a hardware wallet, but but really but it's a combination of hardware and software.
1156
01:16:30.395 --> 01:16:31.295
And the
1157
01:16:31.690 --> 01:16:33.869
the software aspect actually has me personally
1158
01:16:34.330 --> 01:16:35.070
more excited.
1159
01:16:35.449 --> 01:16:37.850
I I, you know, I think think there's definitely room to,
1160
01:16:38.570 --> 01:16:40.510
innovate and and improve the hardware.
1161
01:16:40.975 --> 01:16:48.675
But the the type of software wallet that that team is is looking at has me really excited. They're they're exploring,
1162
01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:51.100
doing a 2 of 3
1163
01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:52.780
multiseg wallet,
1164
01:16:54.200 --> 01:16:58.780
sort of out of out of the box. And I I think a 2 of 3 offers really interesting
1165
01:17:00.474 --> 01:17:02.175
user experience and security
1166
01:17:02.795 --> 01:17:03.295
properties,
1167
01:17:04.074 --> 01:17:10.630
that, a single sig or or other variations don't don't have. There's also the potential to build
1168
01:17:11.250 --> 01:17:13.750
a wallet that can be both a savings,
1169
01:17:15.090 --> 01:17:15.750
you know,
1170
01:17:16.050 --> 01:17:19.395
a savings and a spending wallet all in one and,
1171
01:17:20.574 --> 01:17:22.275
you know, apply different
1172
01:17:22.735 --> 01:17:26.594
US security trade offs to whether it's spending or or Right. Or savings.
1173
01:17:27.050 --> 01:17:30.750
So let's break this down for a second. So right now, if you use Cash
1174
01:17:31.130 --> 01:17:32.190
App, which is
1175
01:17:32.650 --> 01:17:34.510
a product of Block,
1176
01:17:35.685 --> 01:17:37.545
It is a fully custodial wallet.
1177
01:17:38.245 --> 01:17:38.745
My
1178
01:17:39.125 --> 01:17:44.520
understanding of this hardware wallet initiative is that you have a situation where instead
1179
01:17:45.460 --> 01:17:48.760
of Square instead of Cash App holding the keys,
1180
01:17:49.865 --> 01:17:55.645
Cash App holds one key or whatever wallet this ends up being, but block holds one key.
1181
01:17:56.950 --> 01:18:05.930
One key is on the mobile device locally, and then one key is this really cheap hardware wallet that interfaces with the mobile phone.
1182
01:18:06.535 --> 01:18:07.035
So,
1183
01:18:07.655 --> 01:18:08.155
presumably,
1184
01:18:09.975 --> 01:18:13.995
if if something happens and Block doesn't want you to send your transaction,
1185
01:18:14.470 --> 01:18:16.810
you can use the hardware wallet to send.
1186
01:18:17.190 --> 01:18:18.250
But as long
1187
01:18:18.550 --> 01:18:19.530
as block is,
1188
01:18:20.390 --> 01:18:24.695
fine with you sending the transaction, You can keep the hardware wallet in your drawer or something,
1189
01:18:25.235 --> 01:18:25.735
and,
1190
01:18:26.915 --> 01:18:29.815
your your mobile phone signs on one side and
1191
01:18:30.659 --> 01:18:38.040
and, the server signs on the other side using whatever normal fraud detection you have. Is that is that the basic understanding of this project?
1192
01:18:39.385 --> 01:18:41.245
Yeah. I mean, let me first say that
1193
01:18:41.625 --> 01:18:45.725
it's or I'm not on the team, so I don't speak for the team. Right. And secondly,
1194
01:18:46.380 --> 01:18:50.800
it's still super early, so there's really there's no commitment to any particular
1195
01:18:51.340 --> 01:18:52.400
Of course. UX.
1196
01:18:52.940 --> 01:18:58.545
But having said that, here here's at least from my own view, personal view and hope for the the project,
1197
01:18:59.965 --> 01:19:01.184
is what you just described,
1198
01:19:01.645 --> 01:19:06.290
where you have the 3 keys Fucking awesome. On the phone, 1 on the hardware wallet, 1 in the cloud.
1199
01:19:06.990 --> 01:19:07.890
It's noncustodial,
1200
01:19:08.590 --> 01:19:11.170
in the sense that even if the cloud and and
1201
01:19:11.525 --> 01:19:16.025
the cloud server goes away, you still have your hardware wallet and and and your phone's key.
1202
01:19:16.724 --> 01:19:19.465
And this spending experience can be
1203
01:19:19.980 --> 01:19:21.840
just as simple and easy
1204
01:19:22.300 --> 01:19:28.925
as using Cash App or Venmo or any kind of other type of payment app on your phone.
1205
01:19:29.785 --> 01:19:30.925
And and the customer,
1206
01:19:31.304 --> 01:19:43.010
you know, wouldn't even have to think about keys or 2 of 3 or multisay. They don't have to know anything about that because you're signing with the key in the phone and the one in the cloud, and that's all kind of hidden under the covers.
1207
01:19:43.390 --> 01:19:44.130
To protect
1208
01:19:44.755 --> 01:19:46.135
the customer from
1209
01:19:46.594 --> 01:19:50.775
having their entire wallet drained in case their phone becomes compromised,
1210
01:19:52.275 --> 01:19:53.175
one could put
1211
01:19:53.720 --> 01:19:55.740
a a spending velocity limit
1212
01:19:56.440 --> 01:19:59.820
in in in the cloud, such such that it would only sign a transaction
1213
01:20:00.585 --> 01:20:05.965
for certain certain amounts. And there might be other policies. Something that cache already has, like, fraud detection,
1214
01:20:06.425 --> 01:20:07.485
algo, or whatever.
1215
01:20:07.945 --> 01:20:13.210
Yep. And then if, you know, if the customer wants to spend a larger amount,
1216
01:20:13.590 --> 01:20:14.870
that's an opportunity to,
1217
01:20:15.965 --> 01:20:20.225
access their their hardware wallet in which they'd be it would be unlimited,
1218
01:20:21.324 --> 01:20:27.290
and, again, you know, sell software, and you wouldn't you wouldn't be dependent on any any server or or third party service.
1219
01:20:27.670 --> 01:20:34.885
But it allows the the the customer to you know, they can secure their their hardware wallet in a way that's not as accessible
1220
01:20:35.265 --> 01:20:36.804
perhaps as your phone.
1221
01:20:38.304 --> 01:20:49.820
But for daily spending or or or frequent spending, you wouldn't need to access it. And they don't even have to know that as a hardware wallet. That could just be, this is your secret device. Like, keep it safe.
1222
01:20:50.235 --> 01:20:51.695
And in a worst case scenario,
1223
01:20:52.475 --> 01:20:54.735
you're gonna need this to spend your funds.
1224
01:20:56.475 --> 01:21:02.369
Correct. Yep. And what It's gonna be super cheap. On the on the software side,
1225
01:21:02.670 --> 01:21:04.530
you know, I think the team's definitely exploring
1226
01:21:04.989 --> 01:21:06.050
using Taproot
1227
01:21:06.475 --> 01:21:08.495
for for 2 or 3. And, also,
1228
01:21:09.835 --> 01:21:11.615
I think the team really cares about,
1229
01:21:13.755 --> 01:21:19.250
growing this to to lots of users. So Lightning Network and as a as a approach to scaling is is,
1230
01:21:19.650 --> 01:21:21.590
is on the table and being explored.
1231
01:21:21.970 --> 01:21:27.455
And this gets back to an earlier conversation about what Spiral and LDK team and what the broader Lightning
1232
01:21:28.075 --> 01:21:30.655
ecosystem needs to be looking at is multisig.
1233
01:21:31.730 --> 01:21:40.470
Building 2 or 3 into Lightning Network so that it could be possible in this wallet or anyone else looking to do a similar type type of wallet,
1234
01:21:41.225 --> 01:21:42.605
as well as integrating
1235
01:21:42.905 --> 01:21:45.165
Taproot into into Lightning Network.
1236
01:21:47.145 --> 01:21:49.165
That's awesome. I mean, I love the
1237
01:21:50.040 --> 01:21:52.700
I love the trade off balance with this kind of setup.
1238
01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:59.505
Absolutely. I mean, a key aspect here, right, is that is that that actual hardware device
1239
01:22:00.605 --> 01:22:01.505
is gonna be
1240
01:22:02.045 --> 01:22:03.505
is gonna be super cheap,
1241
01:22:03.965 --> 01:22:07.290
air gapped. I mean, I don't know if it's been announced
1242
01:22:08.070 --> 01:22:13.850
specifically, but my guess would be something and you don't have to comment on this. My guess specifically would be something,
1243
01:22:15.185 --> 01:22:20.324
the NFC based so that you could just tap it to the phone. You don't need a battery on it,
1244
01:22:20.945 --> 01:22:22.565
accessible to the whole world.
1245
01:22:23.450 --> 01:22:29.870
Most of the developing world already has a mobile phone, so they would just need, you know, a $10 device, a $5 device,
1246
01:22:30.955 --> 01:22:31.455
and
1247
01:22:31.915 --> 01:22:36.655
they would have relatively strong security guarantees in a very easy UX.
1248
01:22:38.500 --> 01:22:39.000
Yeah.
1249
01:22:39.539 --> 01:22:43.239
Actually, folks that are interested in this, they they're they have a Substack.
1250
01:22:44.179 --> 01:22:47.480
I think it's Square self custody dot substack.com.
1251
01:22:48.965 --> 01:22:54.665
And, they've they've published a couple newsletters, and I think they plan to to regularly publish newsletters.
1252
01:22:55.045 --> 01:22:57.865
In their most recent one, they they did say that,
1253
01:22:59.430 --> 01:23:08.445
they they referenced NFC as being the the interface the the most likely interface that they'll they'll use to communicate. So which is definitely an
1254
01:23:08.905 --> 01:23:11.005
interesting choice. I think it's a I think it's a good
1255
01:23:11.385 --> 01:23:16.925
choice, but, you know, in contrast to using Bluetooth or USB or QR codes or other other mechanisms.
1256
01:23:18.040 --> 01:23:20.860
I believe it's the case that they, you know, very much want to,
1257
01:23:22.120 --> 01:23:26.860
accommodate a world in a in a customer who is mobile first or mobile only,
1258
01:23:27.905 --> 01:23:28.805
and not assume
1259
01:23:29.265 --> 01:23:32.405
not assume a laptop or desktop computer system.
1260
01:23:32.705 --> 01:23:35.445
Yeah. I mean, the major trade off here from my perspective
1261
01:23:36.400 --> 01:23:39.860
is the lack of a dedicated screen on the hardware device,
1262
01:23:40.560 --> 01:23:41.860
to actually verify
1263
01:23:42.240 --> 01:23:43.220
what you're signing
1264
01:23:45.965 --> 01:23:54.385
on the on on the hardware device itself. But I think the trade off basically comes down to cost. So presumably, you could do the same exact setup
1265
01:23:54.989 --> 01:24:02.530
with a device similar to, like, a seed signer that has a camera on it and a screen, and you could do it all through QR codes.
1266
01:24:03.915 --> 01:24:08.015
But the advantage of an NFC based device is no battery,
1267
01:24:08.555 --> 01:24:11.775
extremely low cost. Like, you can drill down that cost tremendously.
1268
01:24:13.120 --> 01:24:16.580
So as with everything with Bitcoin, it'd be nice if there's options there.
1269
01:24:17.360 --> 01:24:22.764
Well, definitely, one of the more controversial things being considered is, as you mentioned, no no display.
1270
01:24:23.065 --> 01:24:25.965
And back in June in the original tweet announcement,
1271
01:24:27.625 --> 01:24:29.645
it was noted that that was being considered.
1272
01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:32.269
You know, the advantages with no display,
1273
01:24:32.570 --> 01:24:33.949
like, as you just mentioned,
1274
01:24:34.250 --> 01:24:36.030
you can hit a lower price point,
1275
01:24:36.409 --> 01:24:41.045
and a lower price point has a lot of advantages. You can reach a lot more people around the world.
1276
01:24:41.505 --> 01:24:43.045
You can have much simpler device,
1277
01:24:45.500 --> 01:24:46.140
and and,
1278
01:24:46.540 --> 01:24:47.040
but
1279
01:24:47.980 --> 01:24:50.320
there needs to be an evaluation, and and
1280
01:24:50.700 --> 01:24:54.160
and, hopefully, there's a lot of feedback from the broader community on the security
1281
01:24:54.685 --> 01:24:55.425
trade offs.
1282
01:24:56.365 --> 01:24:57.745
My hope is that
1283
01:24:58.445 --> 01:25:01.185
if one assumes a multisig 2 of 3,
1284
01:25:01.805 --> 01:25:04.280
as well as perhaps some other design aspects that
1285
01:25:04.580 --> 01:25:05.400
it will be,
1286
01:25:07.300 --> 01:25:14.425
a credible approach and a and a and and meet a security bar for the types of uses for for the product, but that's,
1287
01:25:14.825 --> 01:25:17.725
that still needs to be it still needs to be evaluated.
1288
01:25:18.345 --> 01:25:22.280
Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it comes back to what we're discussing earlier
1289
01:25:22.660 --> 01:25:29.640
that it'd be great if if Bitcoiners have many different options with different trade offs. I mean, another major trade off with this kind of model,
1290
01:25:30.415 --> 01:25:33.075
is that, obviously, who's ever running the server,
1291
01:25:33.455 --> 01:25:35.315
whether that's Block or someone else,
1292
01:25:36.495 --> 01:25:38.675
has full purview into your transactions.
1293
01:25:39.210 --> 01:25:42.670
So it's it's not sovereign in a privacy way.
1294
01:25:43.850 --> 01:25:46.430
But if you compare that to a,
1295
01:25:47.344 --> 01:25:54.965
you know, a a hosted custodial wallet where you have you have no privacy and you have no control over your funds at the same time,
1296
01:25:55.720 --> 01:26:02.460
it is a massive improvement there. And there's gonna be all different options for Bitcoiners. And as they move up through,
1297
01:26:03.065 --> 01:26:09.325
their Bitcoin journey, they they might upgrade to more more private options, and it's all just a path.
1298
01:26:09.865 --> 01:26:10.365
Yep.
1299
01:26:12.250 --> 01:26:14.829
You know, we don't have this on the list, but are
1300
01:26:15.290 --> 01:26:20.110
do you have any interest in discussing TBD at all, the decentralized exchange proposal?
1301
01:26:22.435 --> 01:26:26.055
I I mean, I I can talk about it a little bit. I I
1302
01:26:28.020 --> 01:26:34.580
I think it might be good to have a a a separate show where you have Mike or someone from the TBD team on. But,
1303
01:26:35.380 --> 01:26:41.864
Yeah. I mean, I I guess I can tease it to the freaks. Marty and I are gonna have a discussion with Mike, sometime in January.
1304
01:26:42.885 --> 01:26:46.550
Yeah. I'll I'm happy to help, help facilitate that.
1305
01:26:47.110 --> 01:26:53.929
Yeah. Okay. So so we'll leave it at that. But, TBD to the freaks, they they probably have already heard about on rabbit hole recap,
1306
01:26:54.635 --> 01:27:00.415
if if they're listening to that show, but it's the same I mean, I don't I don't think there's, like, any, like, unique,
1307
01:27:01.435 --> 01:27:03.455
points I could speak to that are
1308
01:27:04.160 --> 01:27:08.500
different than what's already been publicly shared. Like, the, you know, the white paper is published, and
1309
01:27:08.880 --> 01:27:15.445
and, I think it's at a high level being communicated about what what they plan to do. And beyond that, I don't I don't really have a whole lot to add.
1310
01:27:15.745 --> 01:27:16.565
Fair enough.
1311
01:27:16.945 --> 01:27:18.965
Another project I'm very excited about.
1312
01:27:19.665 --> 01:27:24.860
And then we have Hello Bitcoin on the list. You wanna discuss that a little bit?
1313
01:27:25.719 --> 01:27:26.620
Yeah. So,
1314
01:27:27.239 --> 01:27:29.100
one of my best friends, Matt Belez,
1315
01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:30.699
started Hello Bitcoin,
1316
01:27:32.375 --> 01:27:37.035
And the the goal with Hello Bitcoin, if you're not familiar with it, is is just create
1317
01:27:37.415 --> 01:27:39.275
both content and a community
1318
01:27:39.950 --> 01:27:47.489
that's, very warm and welcoming to beginners. And so it's introductory material to Bitcoin. So it's Bitcoin focused. It's all open source.
1319
01:27:49.145 --> 01:27:49.645
And
1320
01:27:50.025 --> 01:27:53.005
so far, there's been 3 videos produced
1321
01:27:53.385 --> 01:27:55.085
that I think are on the order of
1322
01:27:55.489 --> 01:27:58.389
6:6 to 10 minutes long, relatively short.
1323
01:28:00.130 --> 01:28:01.750
Con Connor from my team,
1324
01:28:02.449 --> 01:28:07.725
is the is the in in the first couple of videos and does a great job. He's great in them.
1325
01:28:08.025 --> 01:28:13.440
Yeah. He he just he, you know, he really cares about Bitcoin. You can tell it, and he just speaks well to it.
1326
01:28:14.480 --> 01:28:18.340
And we have guys have chat they they have a channel on, bitcointv.comfreaks
1327
01:28:19.440 --> 01:28:24.665
as well. Hello Bitcoin does. And their website is hello it's hello Bitcoin, but it's
1328
01:28:25.145 --> 01:28:25.805
the the
1329
01:28:26.505 --> 01:28:30.445
the dot is between the o and the I. So it's hello bitco.in.
1330
01:28:33.469 --> 01:28:35.570
Yeah. And I I mean, my hope
1331
01:28:35.949 --> 01:28:44.435
that I I really think those videos are are great, but if you look at the number of views, it it needs to be a 100 x that. So we we we need to find as a community, I think,
1332
01:28:45.055 --> 01:28:51.170
everyone listening, hopefully, take a look at those. And I think these can become go to resources when you're introducing
1333
01:28:51.790 --> 01:28:55.090
friends and family members and people new to Bitcoin. It can be really good.
1334
01:28:56.135 --> 01:28:58.474
There's also a desire on Hello Bitcoin to
1335
01:28:58.934 --> 01:29:00.795
to grow the community aspect.
1336
01:29:01.175 --> 01:29:06.440
I think there's an opportunity to create a a warm, friendly environment that still
1337
01:29:07.300 --> 01:29:10.280
that that retains Bitcoin ethos and discipline,
1338
01:29:11.695 --> 01:29:15.715
but is maybe a different flavor than what we see on Twitter.
1339
01:29:18.175 --> 01:29:19.395
I I I do think,
1340
01:29:20.120 --> 01:29:22.700
you know, on Twitter, I feel like it's a daily battle.
1341
01:29:23.160 --> 01:29:24.620
And I, you know, I
1342
01:29:25.320 --> 01:29:29.100
I enjoy it, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. So I think there's a lot of people
1343
01:29:29.605 --> 01:29:34.505
who would wanna, you know, have an environment where they're comfortable to ask basic questions.
1344
01:29:35.764 --> 01:29:43.080
They're genuinely trying to learn. They're not trying to, like, sell shill an altcoin or something like that. And, there needs to be
1345
01:29:43.460 --> 01:29:48.120
an environment and forum for that. So hello Bitcoin is is a is a possibility there.
1346
01:29:48.695 --> 01:29:56.295
Haley on my team, I think, is gonna start getting more involved with Hello Bitcoin and and grow the community aspect. So I'm I'm excited to see what what can go,
1347
01:29:56.935 --> 01:29:58.850
what can what can happen there.
1348
01:29:59.710 --> 01:30:03.970
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's really great content, and it's a great initiative. It's something that,
1349
01:30:04.430 --> 01:30:08.554
you know, I've been very focused on myself, which is trying to make Bitcoin more accessible,
1350
01:30:11.094 --> 01:30:12.554
particularly to beginners,
1351
01:30:13.094 --> 01:30:15.195
but also to just people that are
1352
01:30:16.780 --> 01:30:20.720
going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, and they just wanna improve their their understanding
1353
01:30:21.100 --> 01:30:22.240
and their usage.
1354
01:30:24.125 --> 01:30:27.185
So, I mean, I have a lot of respect for them. They're doing a really great job,
1355
01:30:27.965 --> 01:30:30.225
and happy to support them with the channel at bitcointv.com.
1356
01:30:32.844 --> 01:30:33.670
And and
1357
01:30:34.630 --> 01:30:38.870
Go ahead. We have we have we have Bitkite in the in the comments who's running,
1358
01:30:40.230 --> 01:30:41.989
the Nashville Big Corners meetup.
1359
01:30:42.415 --> 01:30:46.755
Just meetups in general, like local community meetups, I think, do a lot here,
1360
01:30:47.614 --> 01:30:52.640
and just getting them around the world and and making that process easier for people to run meetups,
1361
01:30:54.540 --> 01:31:02.545
that are that are Bitcoin focused and and focus on, in my my opinion, the important things rather than, you know, trading and get rich quick schemes.
1362
01:31:03.645 --> 01:31:04.145
So
1363
01:31:04.605 --> 01:31:09.505
I I think we're slowly moving in that direction, and I think it goes hand in hand with our earlier conversations
1364
01:31:09.830 --> 01:31:13.290
around LDK, BDK, and Bitcoin Design Community where you have
1365
01:31:13.670 --> 01:31:17.510
actual tools that are easier to use from the ground up so you don't need as much,
1366
01:31:19.235 --> 01:31:19.735
education.
1367
01:31:20.435 --> 01:31:29.310
But, no matter what, we're still gonna need an education component because Bitcoin is so radically different, than than the traditional systems that people are used to. Right?
1368
01:31:30.730 --> 01:31:31.550
Yeah. Absolutely.
1369
01:31:33.545 --> 01:31:38.285
Another thing I wanted to point out about how hello Bitcoin is it's another example of where the Bitcoin design community
1370
01:31:38.985 --> 01:31:41.280
has contributed and and made an impact.
1371
01:31:41.679 --> 01:31:45.699
If you if you look at the the 3rd video from Hello Bitcoin, there's some,
1372
01:31:46.559 --> 01:31:53.695
there's some visuals and motion graphics, and that that was done by volunteers within the design community, which I thought was awesome.
1373
01:31:54.395 --> 01:31:57.535
The Hello Bitcoin 4th video, which will be on
1374
01:31:57.915 --> 01:31:58.415
on
1375
01:31:59.120 --> 01:31:59.940
energy usage,
1376
01:32:00.719 --> 01:32:02.580
which is always a fun topic to cover.
1377
01:32:03.040 --> 01:32:04.739
It's gonna be coming out soon.
1378
01:32:05.199 --> 01:32:12.295
Aiming to to publish it before Christmas. We'll see if that can be met, but that also has a tremendous amount of,
1379
01:32:12.775 --> 01:32:14.875
help from from the design community.
1380
01:32:16.270 --> 01:32:20.449
Awesome. You kinda love how that it just all comes together. You know? We're
1381
01:32:21.230 --> 01:32:27.215
it's like very much a flywheel where all these different projects are helping each other out and and
1382
01:32:28.315 --> 01:32:30.735
and making everything more robust in the process.
1383
01:32:31.355 --> 01:32:41.310
Yeah. I think I mean, there could be a a whole another show on just that topic. I I there's so many instances I've seen of team you know, just instances of team Bitcoin and people coming together,
1384
01:32:41.625 --> 01:32:48.525
sort of loose affiliations, but we're all in we all share this common bond of wanting to see Bitcoin adoption and Bitcoin succeed.
1385
01:32:48.990 --> 01:33:00.355
And it just lowers the barriers to working, collaborate with other people on a project. Like like, historically, you know, you get hired by a company, and you only work with people who are employees,
1386
01:33:01.454 --> 01:33:11.420
at that company. And it it would be, like, foreign and weird to work with employees at other companies. And that's just not the case here at all. You don't it doesn't matter who you work for,
1387
01:33:12.835 --> 01:33:15.475
or or where you're from. Anyone can can,
1388
01:33:16.034 --> 01:33:31.905
can join forces, and and there's just you know? So maybe in another show, we could talk about that because there's many projects I've I've either been involved with or have observed where they they happen so quickly and can get off the ground so quickly with people who have never met in in in real life
1389
01:33:32.364 --> 01:33:32.844
and,
1390
01:33:33.324 --> 01:33:35.344
and really haven't worked with each other before.
1391
01:33:36.045 --> 01:33:36.925
But it's just it's
1392
01:33:37.970 --> 01:33:44.710
I feel like team Bitcoins are you've there's there's, the pillars in place to make it so there's there's a little friction to get projects started.
1393
01:33:45.864 --> 01:33:47.545
100%, Steve. I,
1394
01:33:49.225 --> 01:33:51.244
I feel that too. It's a very special,
1395
01:33:52.930 --> 01:33:56.230
it's a very special community and place we find ourselves in. And
1396
01:33:56.610 --> 01:34:00.370
I don't really think I need to tell you this, but you are always welcome on,
1397
01:34:00.930 --> 01:34:02.070
any of my shows.
1398
01:34:03.215 --> 01:34:10.195
I love having conversations with you, and I really do appreciate the work all the work you're doing. I like having conversations with you online and offline.
1399
01:34:12.639 --> 01:34:15.940
So, yeah, you're always welcome. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.
1400
01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:22.005
So, I mean, I we're you're a busy man. We're nearing the end of our of our time here.
1401
01:34:22.705 --> 01:34:27.125
Do you have anything else you wanna cover? Any final thoughts, before we wrap this up?
1402
01:34:27.985 --> 01:34:29.925
Yeah. Just wanted to mention that
1403
01:34:30.700 --> 01:34:32.080
that we are hiring,
1404
01:34:32.620 --> 01:34:33.500
for for,
1405
01:34:34.060 --> 01:34:35.680
the the mining project
1406
01:34:36.060 --> 01:34:37.600
at at block is hiring.
1407
01:34:39.125 --> 01:34:44.425
The, the wallet project is as well. And my my team is too. So my my team's
1408
01:34:44.805 --> 01:34:48.120
looking to hire 3 more engineers to work on on LDK.
1409
01:34:49.219 --> 01:34:50.360
So anyone listening,
1410
01:34:50.980 --> 01:34:53.719
interested in in a position in any of those teams,
1411
01:34:54.179 --> 01:34:55.159
or know someone?
1412
01:34:56.315 --> 01:35:03.855
I I think for the for mining and for the wallet, just I think the best place to go would be check out the the block website for jobs.
1413
01:35:04.620 --> 01:35:05.420
For spiral specifically,
1414
01:35:07.260 --> 01:35:09.840
you can reach out to me. I'm Moneyball on Twitter,
1415
01:35:10.540 --> 01:35:22.290
or you can apply you can go to our website, and there there's information about how to apply. But I think the email is, apply at Square Crypto dot org. Still have to change the the domain name there, but for now, it's
1416
01:35:23.250 --> 01:35:25.090
that's actually on on my to do list.
1417
01:35:25.490 --> 01:35:29.030
But it's ready. Yeah. Apply at Square Crypto dot org.
1418
01:35:31.074 --> 01:35:32.375
Awesome. Thank you, Steve.
1419
01:35:33.074 --> 01:35:40.160
Huge shout out to the freaks who joined us. Thank you for joining us. And, Steve, thank you so much for your work. Thank you for your time. Really do appreciate it.
1420
01:35:40.940 --> 01:35:47.864
And I look forward to, seeing you in person again sometime soon. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Bye, everyone. Cheers.
1421
01:36:14.830 --> 01:36:16.210
Think about things.
1422
01:37:13.815 --> 01:37:16.235
Because I don't understand you.
1423
01:37:17.094 --> 01:37:19.594
Oh, you are yet to learn how to speak.
1424
01:37:43.225 --> 01:37:44.685
About things? Believe me.
1425
01:37:45.305 --> 01:37:47.965
I will always be there so
1426
01:37:48.585 --> 01:37:51.565
you can tell me anything and I'll listen.
1427
01:38:08.970 --> 01:38:10.510
While we are together,
1428
01:38:11.050 --> 01:38:12.350
there is anywhere
1429
01:38:12.730 --> 01:38:14.350
that I would rather be.
1430
01:38:16.304 --> 01:38:18.324
Three birds of a pepper,
1431
01:38:19.105 --> 01:38:21.605
I just hope you enjoy our company.
1432
01:38:22.304 --> 01:38:23.520
It's been some
1433
01:38:52.775 --> 01:38:54.315
anything in a listen.
1434
01:38:55.415 --> 01:38:56.155
I might
1435
01:38:56.615 --> 01:38:58.235
even know what to say.
1436
01:39:57.070 --> 01:40:00.530
Love you, freaks. Hope you enjoy that conversation as much as I did.
1437
01:40:01.704 --> 01:40:06.764
Thank you again for all your support with the show. If you prefer to support the show through merch,
1438
01:40:07.224 --> 01:40:08.364
go to seal dispatch.com/stack.
1439
01:40:10.470 --> 01:40:15.770
I hope you all enjoy your holiday. As a reminder, I am going to be taking a break for Christmas,
1440
01:40:16.710 --> 01:40:21.255
over the next 2 weeks. We will be back on January 4th with the fire dispatch
1441
01:40:21.795 --> 01:40:23.175
and another Bitcoin Tuesday.
1442
01:40:23.555 --> 01:40:30.760
Rabbit hole recap will be on Thursday, and we will not be taking any breaks for rabbit hole recap as is tradition over the last 3 years.
1443
01:40:31.060 --> 01:40:32.760
Stay humble. Stack stats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:08:54 PM
Duration: 6036.245
Channels: 1
1
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2
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which, there's a there's a a a piece out. I think maybe CNBC even,
3
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.625
talked to, to money manage managers, and that is ripe in
4
00:00:11.565 --> 00:00:12.065
75%
5
00:00:12.445 --> 00:00:16.285
of those polled. That's ripe for a major correction or a major,
6
00:00:17.270 --> 00:00:20.410
letting out of of a lot of air in that in that sector.
7
00:00:20.870 --> 00:00:22.330
Does that sound like consensus,
8
00:00:22.870 --> 00:00:25.930
something to go the the other way onto you or or not?
9
00:00:26.395 --> 00:00:29.615
10
00:00:30.475 --> 00:00:31.535
are moving in.
11
00:00:31.995 --> 00:00:33.055
And right now,
12
00:00:33.970 --> 00:00:39.910
crypto of any sort, they're starting with Bitcoin and Ether, crypto of any sort is a
13
00:00:40.465 --> 00:00:43.364
de minimis amount or percentage of institutional
14
00:00:43.745 --> 00:00:44.245
portfolios.
15
00:00:45.024 --> 00:00:47.605
The reason institutions are moving in is,
16
00:00:48.130 --> 00:00:51.590
to some extent, this is a new asset class with correlations
17
00:00:52.130 --> 00:00:52.950
very different,
18
00:00:53.570 --> 00:00:56.275
compared to other asset classes. In fact,
19
00:00:56.755 --> 00:01:02.855
Yacine Almandra did a a study on this and found that the closest and we did it with Bitcoin.
20
00:01:03.555 --> 00:01:04.775
The closest correlation,
21
00:01:05.810 --> 00:01:06.310
among
22
00:01:07.250 --> 00:01:09.350
or to other assets was real estate.
23
00:01:09.970 --> 00:01:19.015
And so institutional managers have to look at new asset classes that are evolving that have low correlations. That's that's the key to diversification,
24
00:01:19.715 --> 00:01:25.689
and it's the holy grail in terms of asset allocation. So we think that the move actually
25
00:01:26.310 --> 00:01:26.890
by institutions
26
00:01:27.350 --> 00:01:27.850
into,
27
00:01:28.790 --> 00:01:32.825
Bitcoin, if we were to choose Bitcoin, and and that seems to be their first stop,
28
00:01:33.384 --> 00:01:34.685
could add $500,000
29
00:01:36.265 --> 00:01:43.040
to Bitcoin's price if they moved into the tune of roughly 5% over time. Kanti, you
30
00:01:45.970 --> 00:01:46.700
31
00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:21.879
Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another serial dispatch.
32
00:02:22.665 --> 00:02:27.725
The interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
33
00:02:28.985 --> 00:02:32.900
Huge shout out to the ride or die freaks who continue to support the show,
34
00:02:33.200 --> 00:02:35.060
keeping it ad free, sponsor free,
35
00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:37.940
and just focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
36
00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.420
The easiest way to support the show
37
00:02:40.815 --> 00:02:43.715
is, through podcasting 2 point o apps.
38
00:02:45.295 --> 00:02:48.995
My favorite 2 are Fountain Podcasts and Breeze Wallet.
39
00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:52.299
Download one of those apps.
40
00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:57.260
Search Citadel dispatch. Load it up with sats, and then you can stream sats directly,
41
00:02:58.455 --> 00:03:02.235
to my lightning node. You can also support the show at sill dispatch.com
42
00:03:02.695 --> 00:03:05.595
either through lightning or on chain, through a.
43
00:03:07.190 --> 00:03:08.250
And as always,
44
00:03:08.950 --> 00:03:16.090
a big shout out to the freaks who continue to join us week in and week out in our live chat via Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube.
45
00:03:16.455 --> 00:03:18.555
You guys make this show very special,
46
00:03:18.935 --> 00:03:20.715
with your live comments and questions.
47
00:03:22.055 --> 00:03:24.900
So thank you so much for that. I really do appreciate it.
48
00:03:25.860 --> 00:03:28.599
Couple of pieces of homework before we get started here.
49
00:03:28.980 --> 00:03:30.760
We have a new matrix chat,
50
00:03:31.379 --> 00:03:32.439
focused on
51
00:03:33.459 --> 00:03:33.959
dispatch.
52
00:03:34.775 --> 00:03:36.075
You can find that at citadel.chat.
53
00:03:37.655 --> 00:03:44.120
That is gonna be similar to a Discord or Slack experience if you are used to that, but instead, it is self hosted,
54
00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:50.060
open source, and end to end encrypted. So definitely check that out. We already have a really good group of freaks there,
55
00:03:50.440 --> 00:03:52.775
and we have one dedicated, to TFTC@tftc.chat
56
00:03:55.075 --> 00:03:55.734
as well.
57
00:03:56.355 --> 00:03:57.094
And, also,
58
00:03:57.954 --> 00:04:00.614
I hope all you freaks, enjoy your holidays,
59
00:04:01.030 --> 00:04:02.890
with your your friends and your family.
60
00:04:03.510 --> 00:04:06.170
Dispatch will be taking a holiday break,
61
00:04:06.790 --> 00:04:12.305
until January 4th. So, the next 2 Tuesdays, we will be taking off January 4th.
62
00:04:13.165 --> 00:04:17.505
I have a massive show lined up for us already that I'm pretty excited about.
63
00:04:18.669 --> 00:04:28.075
Rabbit Hole Recap will not be taking a break because we never take breaks for Rabbit Hole Recap for 3 years in a row. So you can still find me every Thursday on Rabbit Hole Recap.
64
00:04:30.135 --> 00:04:34.635
As always, all shows are available through the podcast feed after the fact,
65
00:04:35.450 --> 00:04:37.390
and also on bitcoin tv.com,
66
00:04:38.090 --> 00:04:39.550
if you prefer that.
67
00:04:40.090 --> 00:04:42.750
So with all that said, a very exciting,
68
00:04:43.210 --> 00:04:43.710
guest,
69
00:04:44.170 --> 00:04:44.670
today.
70
00:04:45.034 --> 00:04:47.935
Someone I consider a good friend who does a lot of work,
71
00:04:48.474 --> 00:04:49.294
for Bitcoin,
72
00:04:50.155 --> 00:04:52.495
that some people might not appreciate fully.
73
00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:54.970
This is serial dispatch 48.
74
00:04:55.510 --> 00:04:56.570
We will be discussing,
75
00:04:57.510 --> 00:05:04.315
the Bitcoin initiatives being done by Block, formerly known as Square, and Spiral, formerly known as Square Crypto.
76
00:05:05.014 --> 00:05:06.715
And we got Steve Lee here.
77
00:05:07.255 --> 00:05:10.820
Moneyball on Twitter. I don't know how he got the Moneyball Twitter handle. That's
78
00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:13.620
a fire Twitter handle. How's it going, Steve?
79
00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:19.620
80
00:05:20.705 --> 00:05:21.324
I think,
81
00:05:22.425 --> 00:05:23.164
what? Since
82
00:05:23.944 --> 00:05:27.564
83
00:05:28.110 --> 00:05:30.770
84
00:05:31.150 --> 00:05:34.750
Wow. Impressive. Truly impressive. I like I like the book. So
85
00:05:36.205 --> 00:05:36.945
86
00:05:38.525 --> 00:05:39.025
So
87
00:05:39.885 --> 00:05:40.705
you are
88
00:05:41.165 --> 00:05:43.025
what's your official title at Spiral?
89
00:05:44.580 --> 00:05:48.280
90
00:05:48.740 --> 00:05:50.199
91
00:05:51.139 --> 00:05:54.645
92
00:05:55.264 --> 00:05:58.725
So so, yeah, I'm I I'm I'm the I'm the lead for for spiral.
93
00:06:00.940 --> 00:06:04.140
94
00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:07.600
between spiral and between the greater initiatives at Block,
95
00:06:08.305 --> 00:06:13.445
you guys are doing a ton of work, in the Bitcoin space. A lot of it is open source focused.
96
00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:16.740
So where do we wanna get started?
97
00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:23.960
Do you want I mean, we don't have it on the list, but do you wanna talk a little bit about the the name change to spiral first?
98
00:06:24.555 --> 00:06:26.415
99
00:06:27.355 --> 00:06:33.535
So as folks probably know, and you already mentioned that the entire company changed its name from Square to Block,
100
00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:35.330
for a bunch of good reasons.
101
00:06:36.750 --> 00:06:37.650
And since
102
00:06:38.110 --> 00:06:39.330
the brand Square,
103
00:06:40.430 --> 00:06:41.169
is now,
104
00:06:41.805 --> 00:06:46.705
you know, very directly and specifically the original Square Business point of sale terminals,
105
00:06:47.085 --> 00:06:49.760
it's not really related to what Spiral does.
106
00:06:50.139 --> 00:06:54.400
So the name Square Crypto really didn't make sense sense anymore. And really from the beginning,
107
00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:55.360
we
108
00:06:55.660 --> 00:06:57.919
were asked a lot of questions about the name Square Crypto
109
00:06:59.405 --> 00:07:00.945
because we are such an independent
110
00:07:01.245 --> 00:07:05.025
group from the company itself. Having Square in the name,
111
00:07:05.805 --> 00:07:08.840
didn't seem right. And then especially from the Bitcoin
112
00:07:09.220 --> 00:07:10.760
community and Bitcoin crowd
113
00:07:11.140 --> 00:07:12.200
being named crypto,
114
00:07:12.900 --> 00:07:17.105
people want us to, you know, rebrand to to Square Bitcoin or something.
115
00:07:18.045 --> 00:07:23.105
So yeah. So we it was a good opportunity for us to change our name. We wanted to keep something
116
00:07:23.670 --> 00:07:24.810
very, very simple,
117
00:07:25.830 --> 00:07:27.450
and clean. So we,
118
00:07:27.910 --> 00:07:32.250
we went through a exercise and came up with the name spiral, which we're super happy with.
119
00:07:33.065 --> 00:07:37.085
120
00:07:38.585 --> 00:07:39.360
121
00:07:39.919 --> 00:07:42.659
Anyone who's followed our Twitter account knows that the,
122
00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:52.195
the blue spiral emoji is something we we always play with and and sort of part of our our, voice and brand. So it it it partially stems from that.
123
00:07:52.735 --> 00:07:56.115
124
00:07:57.200 --> 00:07:59.060
a bit of an organizational headache,
125
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.460
rather than focusing on on the other projects you guys are working on.
126
00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:09.455
127
00:08:10.235 --> 00:08:13.615
The Puppet Jack film. Yeah. We, Whose idea was that?
128
00:08:14.370 --> 00:08:21.510
There's a guy, Ken, on our team. He's he's the the mastermind behind our our Twitter account, and he's the creative on our team.
129
00:08:22.050 --> 00:08:23.430
So he came up with the idea.
130
00:08:25.155 --> 00:08:27.495
You know, it's something like Lightning Network
131
00:08:28.195 --> 00:08:32.010
and LDK, which we'll talk about, the Lightning Development Kit. Yeah. They're very technical,
132
00:08:32.870 --> 00:08:34.170
very much in the weeds.
133
00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:44.125
So we wanted to create something that that sort of communicated what we're up to, what the benefits are, but do it in a way that's a little more appealing to to a broader audience.
134
00:08:44.665 --> 00:08:45.165
And,
135
00:08:46.030 --> 00:08:51.090
hence hence the film. And so we we came up with a a puppet representing Jack,
136
00:08:52.270 --> 00:08:55.665
and then tried to add add some, humor to it as well.
137
00:08:56.144 --> 00:08:58.065
138
00:08:59.264 --> 00:09:00.305
anyone's gonna be able to,
139
00:09:02.065 --> 00:09:04.990
you completely changed the game of advertising
140
00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:06.590
development kits.
141
00:09:07.690 --> 00:09:08.190
142
00:09:08.970 --> 00:09:17.145
It yeah. It's it's it's hard to take something that's kinda dry and boring to most people and and make it entertaining. So hope hopefully, that sets a bar for
143
00:09:17.605 --> 00:09:22.345
for the the broader Bitcoin space and and really software and tech in general.
144
00:09:23.090 --> 00:09:35.325
145
00:09:36.970 --> 00:09:41.550
which I liked. I thought it was a nice touch because people tend to forget that there's humans behind these things.
146
00:09:42.810 --> 00:09:45.630
So LDK. What is LDK? Why should we care?
147
00:09:46.145 --> 00:09:47.205
Why is it important?
148
00:09:48.145 --> 00:09:52.885
149
00:09:53.329 --> 00:10:02.310
its users and its target is for other developers. We're just trying to make it easier for other developers to integrate Lightning Network services into their their,
150
00:10:02.690 --> 00:10:03.125
wallets.
151
00:10:04.005 --> 00:10:06.745
It differs from the other Lightning implementations and that it's,
152
00:10:07.125 --> 00:10:11.145
yeah, it's it's not in and of itself a node or a wallet.
153
00:10:11.959 --> 00:10:13.579
It's a software library
154
00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:18.620
that allows other developers to customize and build their own their own lightning node.
155
00:10:19.855 --> 00:10:21.215
A couple years ago, we
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when we were deciding which project the full time team at Spiral
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was gonna work on, we did a lot of homework. We reached out to dozens and dozens of of developers and wallets
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and asked them what was either preventing them from adding Lightning Network or what challenges they'd faced,
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while adding it.
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Also spoke with some projects that ended up implementing their own
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implementation of the Lightning Network protocol,
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which is which is very complicated.
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So we came over the conclusion that if we really wanna see the space,
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accelerate and grow and see lots of different,
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experiments
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for wallets and nodes and out there, We we needed to make it bet you know, easier and better for developers.
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So
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the we got started on on lightning development kit. We we started with the Rust lightning project that Matt Carollo had started.
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So it it's implemented in a language called,
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Rust.
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But, you know, 2 2 years later, it's taken a lot of time to to build out a commercial quality
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implementation.
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We've also invested a significant amount of time on language bindings. It's another thing we learned from speaking with developers.
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They
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would be hesitant to integrate
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a library that was written in a language that they themselves aren't using. So if you're building an iPhone, you might be using,
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Swift language or React Native and and every different platform. You know, there's many different languages used by wallet developers.
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So while the LDK is written in Rust,
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we wanted to build out native APIs in Java and Swift and other languages to make it easier for developers.
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To just to pull back a little bit, when you said other,
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I guess, app developers were basically writing lightning implementations from scratch,
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I mean, the 2 that come to mind to me were Breeze
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and Simple Bitcoin Wallet. Is there another one that comes to mind to you?
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have wanted to implement and maintain over time,
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an yet yet another lightning implementation. So it'd be much easier to to be able to integrate,
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a high quality open source one
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that was customizable and flexible enough to meet to meet to to meet their needs. And and that's what we've heard from many other,
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existing lightning wallets, especially on mobile phones.
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To get the right user experience
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on mobile is quite difficult,
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often
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resulting in trade offs. You can see this with Phoenix and Moon and Breeze and BlueWallet.
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And so They all have different trade offs. And they all have different trade offs, which is good. It's good and healthy.
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You know, this isn't easy right now. There's many trade offs you can make. I think it's healthy for Bitcoin to have
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lots of different wallets, lots of different recipes out there.
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And just being transparent, letting people know what what am I trading off with respect to to privacy or security,
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or other issues, you know, to to try to get the right user experience.
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Right. So Yeah. Yeah. Go on. Alright. This is gonna be yeah. L LDK has been designed and architected to be very modular and a library that allows
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those wallet developers to,
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to make those types of trade offs without needing to go modify
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or maintain
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their own,
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Lightning implementation.
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they the app developers, the wallet developers don't really have to focus that hard on the actual lightning component.
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They can focus on everything else around it.
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And, also, the LDK doesn't come bundled with its own
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on chain wallet.
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I believe all the other,
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you know, major lightning implementations
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do. So it's it's really intended for, like, an existing Bitcoin wallet or for
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even if it's a wallet built from scratch,
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a developer who who has in their own mind how they want to,
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you know, do the key storage and what what block data sources they're gonna use, whether it's full blocks or compact you know, compact block filters or there lot there's lots of ways to get the sort of the source of truth.
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We wanna allow the developers to to choose that and not sort of dictate that for them. Interesting.
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would you say that LDK is mobile focused, or is it just mobile friendly but agnostic?
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mobile. That's where I'd say it shines relative to other options,
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but it can certainly be used. LDK can be used
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server side and enterprise,
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in custodial
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environments as well. I I think where it might be attractive for the latter
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situation is is anyone
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looking to improve,
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security or scalability and really wanting to go deeper scaling that. The the modular
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modular
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architecture and the customizability of LDK,
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may may prove beneficial in that environment. But, definitely, mobile is where
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LDK has been built to be high performance,
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run-in
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in, environments that don't have as as many resources as,
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you know, server side and data centers.
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you know, that the next 1000000000 users that onboard
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onto Bitcoin and start using Bitcoin will probably be doing it from a mobile first perspective.
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So that makes a lot of sense to me.
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And, also, there's just massive pain points with lightning on mobile right now.
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So when you put the 2 of the 2 of those together,
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making it easier for us to have more
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fully function lightning wallets,
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on mobile
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and enabling developers to build those wallets is a is a very important task. So I I I do really appreciate you guys working on that.
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So you mentioned it doesn't have,
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an on chain component.
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I know we don't have this on the list. I don't know if you can speak to it that much, but I think
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you have Steve Myers on your team that is working on Bitcoin development kit, BDK?
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can that be used, like, with LDK so you have, like, the on chain component plus
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lightning component?
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grantees. So just everyone knows, Spiral has a a full time development team of 4 developers, and and they're focused on LDK.
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We also have a grant program where we're giving grants,
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to over, you know, several dozen,
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developers,
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including Steve Myers,
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but also several others who are contributing to
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BDK, Bitcoin development kit, which as you just mentioned, it's it's really like a,
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sibling project to LDK. It it complements LDK.
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It's the on chain Bitcoin protocol equivalent of of LDK. So
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they are independent projects.
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But having said that, I definitely imagine
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them one day sort of merging and just there should just be a free open source
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Bitcoin
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SDK. And and and in my mind, it'll be these 2 projects,
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combined. But even today, even though they're independent projects, they're intended to work together. And another spiral grantee, John Cantrell,
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is building a reference wallet,
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that's based on both BDK and LDK.
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So I think in his,
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in his reference wallet, he's using BIP 157, 158 compact block
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filters, to get block data.
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He's
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getting that through,
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the BDK,
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and BDK also provides, you know, like, fee estimation and coin selection and all the things
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all the components you need
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for,
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an on chain wallet.
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And then he's using that in conjunction with LDK to to, to enable lightning.
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And and,
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John is is being funded by Spiral as well. Right? He's part of the grant program? He is. Yep.
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You guys,
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I don't think you have, like, a list of your grant recipients anywhere.
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We we we do on our, on our website. So spiral dot xyz. Oh, it's up there now? Yeah. For a while, like, I feel like you were just, like, tweeting it out.
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Yeah. It was, like, hard to follow.
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to to see, you know, who we've given grants to,
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what they're up to.
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And then with the rebrand to spiral a couple weeks ago, we we published a post, which you can find on our website as well, which really looks back, reflects on the past couple of years, what we've
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what we've accomplished, what we've done,
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and then pointing to the future. We're gonna do basically more of the same.
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We're we're happy to keep supporting
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Bitcoin in in, as many ways as possible.
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really hit the ground running.
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The amount of of work that is that is being funded out of your your project is is pretty remarkable.
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Yeah. And getting back to BDK and LDK, I mean, again, it's our it's our hope that,
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I mean, imagine if you were building,
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you know, a mobile app for iPhone and there was no
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development kit. Or you had to go and as a developer, you're just trying to build, like, a gaming app or a communications app or something like that, and you had to go modify iOS or the SDK yourself.
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That's not really a great environment for
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seeing a massive explosion of creativity and and new applications. So our hope is that with these development kits, we really improve
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the Bitcoin developer user experience by,
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you know, a sub substantial amount. And,
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hopefully, over the next several years, we see a lot more,
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you know, even more creative
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is to have as many options available,
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to to use Bitcoin,
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with varying trade offs. And it it has seemed
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in the past that the major hurdle to that is this, friction of of actually building solid stable
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Bitcoin apps
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and Bitcoin wallets and, having proper,
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foundation for that. I mean, just gotta reduce the friction tremendously. So, hopefully, we'll see
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many more good wallets in the future.
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and just we haven't mentioned yet, but,
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I mean, a lot of people want wonder what's what's the status of LDK? Like, can it be used? Is it ready now?
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It is ready now.
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BlueWallet, which is a wallet many of your listeners probably are familiar with. 100%.
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It's you know, BlueWallet has supported Lightning Network for quite a while now, but it's but it's been,
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because at least by default, custodial lightning. They wanted to move to noncustodial
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on mobile, and, they did an evaluation
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and and chose
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LDK
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as a toolkit for for all the reasons that we we created LDK. So we're really happy that they chose LDK.
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And it's,
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I I think they have, like, a alpha version that's been available for for several months now.
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So it's exciting. And we're also seeing a lot of traction,
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from other,
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from other big services. Hope hopefully, in the next few months,
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we'll,
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we'll see some some other
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services that your listeners either use or are very familiar with that that'll enable lightning using using LDK.
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That's not a general release yet. Right? Like, if you go to the App Store or something like that,
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you won't get the LDK version of BlueWallet yet.
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I still think there's a there's a few things that are, a bit unrelated to LDK that they're shoring up for the next release. I'm not sure exactly what,
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what their schedule looks like, but,
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in the LDK
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spiral video,
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that Puppet Jack was spending with BlueWallet, and I was wondering why that choice was made. So
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the you know, a demo of using LDK at, I think, in August or so of this year. So
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And, I've, like, devoted my life to try and keep track of it, and you still miss things.
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Yeah. Absolutely. Shit.
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I spend full time on it and can barely,
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barely keep up. Exactly.
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I've got before we move on, so the whole thing is built on top of Rust Lightning?
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and then there's the language bindings I mentioned. So there's there's, like, a Java layer,
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a Swift layer, and and we're building out support for other languages too.
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there's there's 6 lightning
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6 major lightning implementations.
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You have l and d, you have c lightning,
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you have a Claire,
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you have a Morden,
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you have
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Electrum's Python lightning,
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And
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do you have
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oh, you have Breeze's go I think it's a go based implementation.
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Is there another one that I'm forgetting? There's one that I'm forgetting.
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Moon has done a lot of
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customized work too. The the the node the portions of the node that run the phone, I think, are are pretty much all their own implementation.
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I mean, I don't have, like, hard numbers in front of me, but right now,
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the estimates are, like, around, like, 70% of the Lightning Network is running LND.
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Do you expect that number to go down? Do you expect there to be,
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you know, multiple implementations with over 20%
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of liquidity on the network? Or is or do you think it's gonna be, like, more of a winner takes all kinda thing?
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like,
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speculate on winner take takes all. There's there's so many trade offs,
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with different like we said earlier, in terms of getting the right user experience,
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security, privacy,
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and then, of course, between enterprise
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and and mobile.
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I can imagine the future, like Internet,
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like, IoT
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devices, payment terminals,
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do I do expect,
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I mean, now I mean, LDK has 0% market share right now because nothing nothing is live.
401
00:26:10.490 --> 00:26:16.190
I think Matt Carl and a few other people have test test nodes that are on main net. Right.
402
00:26:16.570 --> 00:26:23.395
But in terms of actual services with users, nothing's live yet. So right now, it's 0%. So I certainly expect LDA to to increase,
403
00:26:24.095 --> 00:26:26.275
404
00:26:28.070 --> 00:26:28.390
405
00:26:28.870 --> 00:26:37.065
406
00:26:37.445 --> 00:26:38.985
with, like, a decent adoption?
407
00:26:40.725 --> 00:26:44.105
408
00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:50.200
there's so much room for experimentation and there's no wait offs, I I can't imagine any one implementation,
409
00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:54.895
satisfying all of that. So So the last thing we wanna do right now
410
00:26:55.515 --> 00:27:00.550
in such early days of Lightning Network is to restrict what's possible or what's experimented with.
411
00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:05.210
You know? So may we we can chat again in, like, 3 or 4 years
412
00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:07.530
to see how things have have evolved.
413
00:27:08.525 --> 00:27:11.025
And then maybe maybe long term,
414
00:27:11.885 --> 00:27:14.865
it it it sort of boils down to 2 or 3,
415
00:27:15.805 --> 00:27:16.305
implementations.
416
00:27:16.925 --> 00:27:18.305
417
00:27:18.990 --> 00:27:20.210
that makes sense to me.
418
00:27:20.670 --> 00:27:22.450
We're still very much in the experiment
419
00:27:23.150 --> 00:27:23.650
experimentation
420
00:27:24.110 --> 00:27:24.610
phase
421
00:27:25.070 --> 00:27:26.370
trying to see what works.
422
00:27:27.865 --> 00:27:30.685
So where do you wanna go next? You wanna discuss b trust?
423
00:27:31.625 --> 00:27:33.805
424
00:27:34.185 --> 00:27:37.005
spiral stuff if you like, direct spiral stuff if you want.
425
00:27:37.690 --> 00:27:44.670
Maybe speak a little bit to the design community. Let's hit it. I think you had a recent show on that, so we don't have to repeat that. But
426
00:27:45.184 --> 00:27:47.365
but I'm I'm happy to speak a little bit about,
427
00:27:47.825 --> 00:27:51.684
428
00:27:52.260 --> 00:27:56.280
429
00:27:57.300 --> 00:27:58.200
It's genesis.
430
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.200
When when we started
431
00:28:00.894 --> 00:28:08.674
spiral or Square Crypto at the time, we wanted to we wanted to impact design in the space because we felt it it had little,
432
00:28:09.135 --> 00:28:09.635
investment.
433
00:28:10.460 --> 00:28:14.960
And we initially set out to hire a full time designer on the spiral team.
434
00:28:15.500 --> 00:28:18.480
And so we interviewed many, many dozens
435
00:28:18.780 --> 00:28:19.280
of
436
00:28:19.975 --> 00:28:28.235
talented designers and really never found someone who checked all the boxes. But I I I think, you know, after, like, 8 months of of meeting over 50 people,
437
00:28:28.615 --> 00:28:29.174
we looked
438
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:31.419
know, reflected on that, and
439
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:39.275
I think we had we're we're looking for a unicorn candidate. And Right. What we realized is that we've met amazing
440
00:28:39.575 --> 00:28:40.075
designers
441
00:28:40.775 --> 00:28:47.035
with different skill sets, all of whom shared one thing, which is that they all were passionate about Bitcoin.
442
00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:50.190
Another thing they shared is that they were kinda operating
443
00:28:50.970 --> 00:28:52.030
on their own island
444
00:28:52.410 --> 00:28:53.390
in terms of
445
00:28:53.850 --> 00:29:02.355
how to engage and get involved with Bitcoin and communicating with others, which is very foreign to most designers. Like, creative people love to
446
00:29:02.655 --> 00:29:07.710
interact with other creatives, and and, that's a pretty common part of their process. So,
447
00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:12.650
so we switched our our strategy, and we're like, hey. Why don't we just
448
00:29:13.304 --> 00:29:15.804
why don't we initiate and help kick start
449
00:29:16.105 --> 00:29:19.645
the Bitcoin design community? You know, a free open community.
450
00:29:20.105 --> 00:29:21.245
This is not a
451
00:29:22.370 --> 00:29:23.590
spiral or block,
452
00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:25.590
centric
453
00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:33.174
or initiative. It's it's for the Bitcoin community. It's a public good. And so we kicked it off, about a year and a half ago.
454
00:29:34.674 --> 00:29:37.174
And I'm really, really happy with how how it's evolved.
455
00:29:38.270 --> 00:29:48.345
It it is completely independent of I shouldn't say completely. I mean, we we fund several people working on it, but, like, you know, it it runs independent of myself or Spiral
456
00:29:48.805 --> 00:29:49.625
or or or Block.
457
00:29:50.245 --> 00:29:55.980
And I I'm I'm pretty confident that it is now evolved. It has enough,
458
00:29:56.760 --> 00:30:00.460
accomplishments and momentum that it'll be sustainable even if,
459
00:30:01.385 --> 00:30:05.565
spiral just just went away. So I'm really happy with that. They've produced,
460
00:30:06.425 --> 00:30:07.565
a design guide,
461
00:30:08.179 --> 00:30:09.960
which is live and available.
462
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:13.320
They published version 1 of the design guide last June,
463
00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:15.159
and now they're adding
464
00:30:15.535 --> 00:30:19.535
lightning network in a big way to the design guide. And this this really
465
00:30:19.935 --> 00:30:26.530
you know, you can bundle those design guide in with BDK and LDK as just being a a really great resource for any builder
466
00:30:26.830 --> 00:30:27.890
looking to build
467
00:30:28.190 --> 00:30:30.530
a great Bitcoin and lightning application.
468
00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:39.005
The design guide, you know, it obviously doesn't dictate what people do with the design, but it's just intended to be guidelines, best practices,
469
00:30:39.919 --> 00:30:50.385
walk through some of the trade offs that, you'll need to to think about, and just be a a helpful resource. And I I've really noticed in the past 6 months that more and more people are becoming aware of it
470
00:30:51.245 --> 00:30:55.265
and and using it and and trusting it. And so, hopefully, that that
471
00:30:56.350 --> 00:30:57.310
that keeps going.
472
00:30:57.950 --> 00:31:01.970
And another project the design community has done is a wallet improvement project
473
00:31:02.510 --> 00:31:05.330
where members of the of the design community are
474
00:31:06.085 --> 00:31:08.985
selecting a different wallet in in the space,
475
00:31:09.445 --> 00:31:10.505
evaluating it,
476
00:31:11.044 --> 00:31:12.264
and just documenting
477
00:31:12.644 --> 00:31:14.745
areas of improvement. And even
478
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:21.100
not just documenting or or pointing out problems, but trying to come up with solutions. So they're they're coming up with designs in Figma.
479
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:24.365
They're going to the project's GitHub and opening up
480
00:31:24.845 --> 00:31:36.110
issues or PRs to to help improve that wallet. And and the it's been a it's been a great relationship with the wallet projects too because they've they've found they've been very welcoming to this and embraced it.
481
00:31:36.410 --> 00:31:39.630
And we already see a bunch of wallets have made improvements,
482
00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:41.070
that have emerged,
483
00:31:41.534 --> 00:31:42.674
based on that feedback.
484
00:31:43.775 --> 00:31:49.395
485
00:31:50.015 --> 00:31:53.650
486
00:31:54.190 --> 00:31:57.490
let's make it easier to build awesome Bitcoin applications.
487
00:31:58.855 --> 00:32:04.475
488
00:32:05.014 --> 00:32:09.290
it's still weird calling it block, by the way. Perspective of formally Square,
489
00:32:10.150 --> 00:32:10.970
where where
490
00:32:11.270 --> 00:32:14.970
you're basically, like, building the foundation for other,
491
00:32:15.405 --> 00:32:18.945
you know, open source projects to come and compete with you.
492
00:32:19.965 --> 00:32:20.465
Yep.
493
00:32:20.925 --> 00:32:22.560
Yep. Gotta love it.
494
00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:26.100
So, I mean, the Bitcoin design community, I've seen massive,
495
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:30.340
massive impact by them already.
496
00:32:31.155 --> 00:32:34.855
When I talk to different wallet teams and stuff, the it's almost,
497
00:32:35.475 --> 00:32:39.554
expected that they're gonna tell me that they already have gotten help, and,
498
00:32:40.659 --> 00:32:43.320
we're very happy with the help they've received from,
499
00:32:44.419 --> 00:32:45.159
that community.
500
00:32:46.340 --> 00:32:47.220
I believe there's
501
00:32:48.034 --> 00:32:55.975
they have a Slack, like, a public Slack. Like, what if if a freak wants to help with the Bitcoin design community, how do how do they
502
00:32:56.355 --> 00:32:57.575
how do they do that?
503
00:32:58.280 --> 00:33:01.260
504
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:08.424
that website. And from there, you can find everything. You can find the the Slack that you mentioned. You can see the
505
00:33:08.725 --> 00:33:08.804
guide,
506
00:33:09.845 --> 00:33:11.304
that I that I spoke to,
507
00:33:12.085 --> 00:33:15.450
as well as just resources on on how to contribute, how to get involved.
508
00:33:15.769 --> 00:33:17.789
And in fact, there's over 2,200
509
00:33:18.490 --> 00:33:23.070
creatives have joined that Slack. So it's just been a Damn. Phenomenal response.
510
00:33:23.690 --> 00:33:24.190
And
511
00:33:24.825 --> 00:33:25.325
many,
512
00:33:25.705 --> 00:33:28.125
many dozen are are actively involved.
513
00:33:28.585 --> 00:33:31.725
There's a regular community call every 3 weeks
514
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:53.170
along with a, an associated newsletter. So if you're if you're a little bit short on time but interested, I think reading that newsletter every 3 weeks and joining the community call, which has recently been hosted on Twitter Spaces, that's a good way to to learn more and and be involved. And then, yeah, if you're a builder, if you have a wallet or an application and would like review, there's also a,
515
00:33:53.890 --> 00:33:54.770
a design review,
516
00:33:56.145 --> 00:34:00.645
recurring meeting that that's every 3 weeks, and I just think it's a phenomenal resource.
517
00:34:01.105 --> 00:34:03.525
I I worked at Google for almost a decade
518
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.850
and worked at other tech companies, and it's the same kind of
519
00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:09.650
design review process that you'd see
520
00:34:09.950 --> 00:34:12.175
at a company like that yet in a
521
00:34:12.575 --> 00:34:13.295
open source,
522
00:34:14.815 --> 00:34:21.635
style and fashion, and it it's welcome for for anyone who who would like some feedback from from this talented community.
523
00:34:22.690 --> 00:34:23.190
524
00:34:25.490 --> 00:34:33.075
Yeah. I mean, I feel like especially among, like, the Bitcoin enthusiast crowd and the the more hardcore Bitcoiners, like, we tend to discount,
525
00:34:34.335 --> 00:34:37.394
the impact of good design. But if we're talking about,
526
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:40.720
onboarding the next 1000000000 Bitcoiners,
527
00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:44.559
it doesn't just stop at BDK or LDK
528
00:34:44.859 --> 00:34:47.465
or more wallets that are more powerful. Like,
529
00:34:48.425 --> 00:34:48.925
UX
530
00:34:49.225 --> 00:34:51.085
and design is a is a major
531
00:34:51.465 --> 00:34:53.165
is a major aspect of that.
532
00:34:53.625 --> 00:34:58.079
When you have new users trying to onboard onto these onto these wallets,
533
00:34:59.660 --> 00:35:05.599
like, you shouldn't you shouldn't need, like, an hour long 45 minute guide on how to use something,
534
00:35:06.815 --> 00:35:10.115
for a new user to to get comfortable. They should be able to,
535
00:35:10.735 --> 00:35:19.220
you know, open the app, open the wallet, and the design, the UX kind of guide them through through best practices and how to use it in a relatively easy fashion.
536
00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:21.220
537
00:35:23.705 --> 00:35:27.165
538
00:35:28.025 --> 00:35:31.485
Do you wanna we we already spoke about the grants a little bit.
539
00:35:32.250 --> 00:35:33.230
Is there anything
540
00:35:33.530 --> 00:35:50.505
541
00:35:51.810 --> 00:35:54.470
which is which I thought was just the it started
542
00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:57.750
this past year, and I just thought it was a phenomenal initiative.
543
00:35:59.145 --> 00:36:02.285
One of the biggest bottlenecks in open source Bitcoin development
544
00:36:02.825 --> 00:36:04.444
is is just finding
545
00:36:05.145 --> 00:36:10.030
talented people who are are interested and trained to to contribute.
546
00:36:12.010 --> 00:36:18.805
You know, funding and getting dollars is certainly one aspect, but it doesn't end there because you actually need to find
547
00:36:19.345 --> 00:36:24.830
the, you know, peep people to, to match those dollars with. And so some of Bitcoin's an initiative
548
00:36:25.930 --> 00:36:26.410
that,
549
00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:28.510
started by
550
00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:30.350
started in India,
551
00:36:30.650 --> 00:36:32.110
and they they
552
00:36:32.815 --> 00:36:35.795
opened up an application process, I think, to something like 5
553
00:36:36.095 --> 00:36:37.395
universities in India,
554
00:36:37.855 --> 00:36:38.915
got an incredible
555
00:36:39.750 --> 00:36:41.350
response. So this is for,
556
00:36:41.750 --> 00:36:42.810
a summer internship.
557
00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:46.730
And I think they they had over 4,000
558
00:36:47.865 --> 00:36:48.365
applications
559
00:36:48.825 --> 00:36:52.045
just for a handful of universities. So really incredible.
560
00:36:52.665 --> 00:36:56.765
So that was a huge process just to to narrow down. I think they had 50
561
00:36:57.520 --> 00:36:58.660
52 or 53
562
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.619
interns this past summer, and they match those interns
563
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:07.615
not at companies, but with open source Bitcoin projects. So LDK, BDK, Bitcoin Core, LND,
564
00:37:08.395 --> 00:37:17.030
and many other open source Bitcoin projects. And each intern, you know, you know, merged a PR or did some kind of project, and they got paid,
565
00:37:18.850 --> 00:37:25.255
a a stipend in in in Bitcoin. So just a great start to that because, historically, there's been
566
00:37:26.275 --> 00:37:27.095
almost nonexistent,
567
00:37:28.675 --> 00:37:30.695
open source Bitcoin development from
568
00:37:31.030 --> 00:37:37.530
people in India. And it's a country so rich in in in in, you know, talented engineers.
569
00:37:38.115 --> 00:37:40.934
So it was great to see some traction there,
570
00:37:41.714 --> 00:37:48.300
in in India. But the summer of Bitcoin program has global ambition. So they're they're coming back for for a,
571
00:37:48.600 --> 00:37:51.180
you know, 2nd 2nd year this this coming year,
572
00:37:52.200 --> 00:38:01.935
opening up their internship program to people all around the world. So Spiral's proud proud supporters of that. We're we're funding the the person who's running the show,
573
00:38:03.035 --> 00:38:03.435
and,
574
00:38:03.835 --> 00:38:04.895
funding the stipends.
575
00:38:05.510 --> 00:38:08.710
Chaincode has been phenomenal with this too. They've lent,
576
00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:11.930
I think, not just money, but also a lot of their time helping,
577
00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:17.454
helping that get up off the ground. So really happy with some of Bitcoin. People should check it out.
578
00:38:17.915 --> 00:38:18.815
For those
579
00:38:19.355 --> 00:38:22.174
listening who are are developers or potential
580
00:38:22.474 --> 00:38:22.974
mentors,
581
00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:27.160
the program would love to to match up mentors with with mentees.
582
00:38:28.020 --> 00:38:31.000
And if you're listening and you would like to apply,
583
00:38:31.300 --> 00:38:33.160
you can, go to the summer Bitcoin
584
00:38:33.505 --> 00:38:36.964
585
00:38:38.385 --> 00:38:41.365
586
00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:42.559
587
00:38:44.540 --> 00:38:51.224
Before I forget, we have SB Design in the comments mentioning that the Bitcoin design community is doing a meet and greet on Thursday.
588
00:38:54.244 --> 00:38:57.305
There's a there's a link to an issue on their GitHub,
589
00:38:57.850 --> 00:39:02.670
that has the description there. I'm sure you can get to it by going bit to bitcoin dot design,
590
00:39:03.450 --> 00:39:04.350
if you're interested.
591
00:39:04.815 --> 00:39:10.115
We also have Ben, the Carmen, in com in the comments mentioning that they got 2 great contributors,
592
00:39:11.455 --> 00:39:15.080
through the summer Bitcoin initiative at shared bids. I also know,
593
00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:17.800
that Wiz,
594
00:39:18.660 --> 00:39:20.760
one of the lead maintainers of mempool.space,
595
00:39:21.220 --> 00:39:22.120
which I have
596
00:39:22.965 --> 00:39:24.185
streaming during every
597
00:39:25.205 --> 00:39:26.345
dispatch. Also,
598
00:39:27.045 --> 00:39:30.825
got some interns through that program. So it's just a really fantastic initiative,
599
00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:33.810
that really helped a lot of projects,
600
00:39:34.350 --> 00:39:35.490
throughout the industry.
601
00:39:38.110 --> 00:39:39.730
I also before we continue,
602
00:39:40.830 --> 00:39:44.845
we have we have MG MG Blaze on the comments asking,
603
00:39:46.105 --> 00:39:47.865
asking you, Steve, what
604
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:52.339
you know, you said you worked at at Google for 10 years.
605
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:57.140
How how has that been different than than your than your role at Spiral?
606
00:40:01.445 --> 00:40:06.870
607
00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:10.730
yeah. So I was at Google from 2006
608
00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:12.010
to 2015.
609
00:40:13.350 --> 00:40:24.270
And during that time, it still especially in in the first four years I was there, still very much a company that was engineering driven, engineering led.
610
00:40:24.970 --> 00:40:27.950
I had a product I I worked in product product management.
611
00:40:28.490 --> 00:40:28.990
And
612
00:40:29.370 --> 00:40:29.870
so
613
00:40:30.705 --> 00:40:35.525
the I worked in Google Maps on mobile phones. I was the the lead product manager for that.
614
00:40:36.305 --> 00:40:37.765
I had to work with engineers
615
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:40.460
across the world, lots of different,
616
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:41.579
locations,
617
00:40:42.680 --> 00:40:43.180
and,
618
00:40:44.040 --> 00:40:45.099
you know, to to
619
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:45.900
affect
620
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.885
the the road map or the user experience or improving the product,
621
00:40:50.345 --> 00:40:52.685
I had to build relationships with those developers,
622
00:40:53.545 --> 00:41:03.050
you know, among many other people. And that consensus building that process, I think that carries over to to Bitcoin and open source. It's even more extreme
623
00:41:03.635 --> 00:41:06.375
in in Bitcoin and and the centralized nature.
624
00:41:07.635 --> 00:41:13.460
But the skills that I developed doing that at Google did did transfer over and help.
625
00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:17.240
Let's see. And,
626
00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:22.715
yeah, how are they different? Well, I mean, I'm really lucky
627
00:41:23.095 --> 00:41:24.715
to be working on Spiral.
628
00:41:26.215 --> 00:41:27.995
Jack Dorsey and Block,
629
00:41:28.375 --> 00:41:30.395
you know, fund Spiral,
630
00:41:30.870 --> 00:41:32.570
but it's completely hands off.
631
00:41:33.270 --> 00:41:37.210
All all Jack asks of us is that we just help Bitcoin succeed.
632
00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:39.130
And
633
00:41:39.625 --> 00:41:43.964
Jack and no one at Block gives gives us, any direction or
634
00:41:44.265 --> 00:41:45.325
tells us no.
635
00:41:46.265 --> 00:41:50.580
So we're we're, yeah, it's really it's really amazing. So we're very fortunate.
636
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.305
Yeah. So even I mean, at Google, I had a lot of latter kids as well, but not not not to this not to this extreme.
637
00:41:59.805 --> 00:42:00.305
638
00:42:01.724 --> 00:42:02.705
I had no idea
639
00:42:03.565 --> 00:42:08.710
I I I had no idea that you were one of your main projects was Google Maps over there.
640
00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:14.555
641
00:42:15.095 --> 00:42:16.075
for 4
642
00:42:16.535 --> 00:42:20.474
643
00:42:22.710 --> 00:42:23.849
unfortunately, cannot use,
644
00:42:24.630 --> 00:42:25.369
due to,
645
00:42:25.990 --> 00:42:26.890
privacy issues.
646
00:42:28.950 --> 00:42:29.270
But,
647
00:42:30.244 --> 00:42:35.765
that that was definitely one of the hard ones to cut out in my privacy journey. So I also worked on
648
00:42:37.180 --> 00:42:39.520
649
00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:43.760
Wi Fi and cell tower and and GPS, which has all kinds of interesting privacy,
650
00:42:44.300 --> 00:42:47.115
651
00:42:49.575 --> 00:42:50.075
So
652
00:42:50.935 --> 00:42:52.635
while we're on the privacy topic,
653
00:42:53.630 --> 00:42:58.130
Trinity mentioned earlier and he just noticed that we mentioned privacy again.
654
00:42:58.910 --> 00:43:02.529
So he and he is a true ride or die freak. He's always in the comments.
655
00:43:04.915 --> 00:43:06.455
Is there anything specifically
656
00:43:06.835 --> 00:43:11.015
privacy focused that you guys are working on with respect to BDK and LDK?
657
00:43:13.540 --> 00:43:16.120
658
00:43:17.700 --> 00:43:20.585
You know, even outside of BDK, LDK, we we fund,
659
00:43:21.145 --> 00:43:23.645
we have a grant to Chris Vulture
660
00:43:24.025 --> 00:43:25.645
working on coins as well.
661
00:43:26.984 --> 00:43:29.165
And and Lightning Network in and of itself,
662
00:43:29.570 --> 00:43:31.910
if, if successful and adopted,
663
00:43:32.210 --> 00:43:33.510
I think it will improve,
664
00:43:34.850 --> 00:43:36.310
privacy for for Bitcoiners.
665
00:43:37.410 --> 00:43:38.215
And so
666
00:43:38.615 --> 00:43:39.435
but there's nothing
667
00:43:40.695 --> 00:43:47.515
actually, that's not that's not true. So one one thing that, it's not necessarily specific to LDK, but it's a it's a priority for the project
668
00:43:47.950 --> 00:43:48.769
is to
669
00:43:49.390 --> 00:43:51.890
do routing and path finding for lightning
670
00:43:52.509 --> 00:43:53.009
on
671
00:43:53.390 --> 00:43:59.865
the client device, so on a mobile device, which is which is which is a hard hard challenge because it's a lot of data
672
00:44:00.165 --> 00:44:02.265
that has to be downloaded to the to the phone.
673
00:44:03.045 --> 00:44:05.590
And if it's been a while since you've opened your wallet app,
674
00:44:06.150 --> 00:44:07.050
it can create
675
00:44:07.750 --> 00:44:11.370
latency issues. That that's the tension there and and the the technical challenge.
676
00:44:11.670 --> 00:44:19.950
So Aric on on our team is actively working on a project right now for to reduce the amount of information that needs to be downloaded to the phone.
677
00:44:20.670 --> 00:44:25.329
And Blockstream has done some work on this as well. So, hopefully, we we can we can get that
678
00:44:25.630 --> 00:44:28.450
to a sweet spot where it's still a good user experience.
679
00:44:28.905 --> 00:44:31.165
You don't have a, you know, a a
680
00:44:31.545 --> 00:44:37.405
a bad lag when opening the app, and yet the your your payment routing could be done on the phone, which definitely enhances
681
00:44:37.785 --> 00:44:46.510
682
00:44:47.475 --> 00:44:49.575
how you're paying and where you're paying and whatnot.
683
00:44:49.955 --> 00:44:51.495
684
00:44:51.955 --> 00:44:53.175
There's also trampoline,
685
00:44:53.795 --> 00:44:58.880
payments, which I I I think, like, the folks at async and and others are are working on.
686
00:44:59.260 --> 00:45:04.400
It it's kind of a hybrid between the 2. So that that's another option that's being being developed.
687
00:45:05.065 --> 00:45:09.164
So so, again, like most of these trade offs, when when if you're trying to do noncustodial
688
00:45:09.464 --> 00:45:09.964
as
689
00:45:10.265 --> 00:45:17.220
self sovereign as possible on mobile, it's really hard to deliver a great user experience. So there's lots of, lots
690
00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.500
of belts and knobs and and Right.
691
00:45:20.928 --> 00:45:31.870
To, you know, to try to tune that. So I think we need to have dozens of experiments, including privacy to, to see what what's right. And it it'll improve over time too. We we might need to make some certain
692
00:45:32.250 --> 00:45:32.750
concessions
693
00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:37.310
over the next few years to have adequate user experience for certain users.
694
00:45:37.755 --> 00:45:40.575
But maybe in in, 3, 4, 5 years,
695
00:45:40.875 --> 00:45:44.015
we'll we'll make it, so you don't have to make certain sacrifices.
696
00:45:44.875 --> 00:45:47.055
697
00:45:47.550 --> 00:45:48.930
I have a ton of respect,
698
00:45:49.230 --> 00:45:51.890
for the work that Chris Belcher is doing and,
699
00:45:54.270 --> 00:45:57.395
you know, you guys you guys supporting him in in his coin
700
00:45:59.635 --> 00:46:00.535
swap work, really,
701
00:46:01.075 --> 00:46:04.935
personally, was very massive to me. It was it was a big deal to me to see a
702
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:12.039
a project out of a, you know, a large publicly traded financial company,
703
00:46:12.980 --> 00:46:15.960
funding directly financial privacy works. So
704
00:46:16.315 --> 00:46:21.295
705
00:46:22.234 --> 00:46:23.375
our our corporate
706
00:46:23.789 --> 00:46:24.910
funder not not,
707
00:46:25.710 --> 00:46:26.210
having,
708
00:46:26.670 --> 00:46:28.369
much say in what we've heard. So,
709
00:46:29.710 --> 00:46:33.335
I I agree. I was really proud proud of that grant in particular
710
00:46:33.875 --> 00:46:40.990
and, looking forward to to to the future of that. Another thing, back to LDK and privacy, another thing that will be really important
711
00:46:41.370 --> 00:46:42.350
for next year
712
00:46:42.650 --> 00:46:48.990
within the broader Lightning ecosystem and LDK specifically is just integration of of Taproot in into Lightning.
713
00:46:49.625 --> 00:46:51.805
And there's a number of different touch points,
714
00:46:52.585 --> 00:46:53.805
and it's pretty pretty,
715
00:46:54.825 --> 00:46:55.885
involved, but
716
00:46:56.240 --> 00:46:58.819
that'll undoubtedly improve privacy as well.
717
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:03.140
718
00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:03.940
specifically
719
00:47:05.385 --> 00:47:07.244
impacting the end user? And
720
00:47:09.945 --> 00:47:19.040
721
00:47:19.660 --> 00:47:21.200
when closing lightning channels,
722
00:47:22.194 --> 00:47:25.015
by you know, when using Taproot, it'll look like,
723
00:47:25.315 --> 00:47:29.815
at least on a cooperative close, it'll look like any other payment, like a single signature
724
00:47:30.410 --> 00:47:33.470
and not be identifiable like it currently is.
725
00:47:34.570 --> 00:47:37.230
726
00:47:38.815 --> 00:47:39.315
727
00:47:40.654 --> 00:47:41.395
And then
728
00:47:42.015 --> 00:47:42.755
a transition
729
00:47:43.135 --> 00:47:44.115
from HTLCs
730
00:47:44.575 --> 00:47:45.555
to PTLCs
731
00:47:46.660 --> 00:47:47.400
is another,
732
00:47:48.020 --> 00:47:49.320
way to improve privacy.
733
00:47:49.700 --> 00:47:52.260
There's been a few papers written about privacy
734
00:47:53.565 --> 00:47:58.865
some privacy weaknesses and lightning, and and I think PTLCs can shore up at least 1 or 2 of those.
735
00:48:00.445 --> 00:48:01.885
And then something that,
736
00:48:02.590 --> 00:48:05.330
is less privacy related and more security related,
737
00:48:06.510 --> 00:48:09.090
I would like to see multisync supported
738
00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:14.734
in in lightning net network So that, for example, you could have a 2 of 2 of 3 wallet
739
00:48:15.195 --> 00:48:17.695
or any k event, but, like, for example, 2 of 3,
740
00:48:18.395 --> 00:48:26.640
and and have the lightning script support that. And and currently, it's only sing single signature. So I think something we'll get to a little bit later in the show is,
741
00:48:27.740 --> 00:48:31.224
future 2 of 3 type of wallets that that I'm excited about,
742
00:48:31.605 --> 00:48:38.420
and not only supporting that at the on chain Bitcoin protocol level, but also at Lightning Network. Yeah. I mean, that's gonna be
743
00:48:39.520 --> 00:48:47.675
744
00:48:49.015 --> 00:48:51.195
But, like, I did have I had a conversation
745
00:48:53.990 --> 00:48:57.770
with Eric Siri on on dispatch earlier who's working on,
746
00:48:59.750 --> 00:49:02.410
he's working on a a Chaumion e cache,
747
00:49:02.895 --> 00:49:04.835
federated Chaumion e cash implementation,
748
00:49:06.575 --> 00:49:07.955
for lightning wallet.
749
00:49:09.135 --> 00:49:10.755
And one of the big
750
00:49:11.590 --> 00:49:14.810
bottlenecks for him is that the actual lightning component
751
00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:17.050
is hard to multisig out,
752
00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:20.650
and he doesn't wanna build that on his own. So, hopefully,
753
00:49:21.625 --> 00:49:25.165
we can have that. And, like, right now in the wild, we have the Bitcoin Beach Wallet,
754
00:49:25.944 --> 00:49:28.365
which is trying to do, like, this almost, like, multisig,
755
00:49:30.329 --> 00:49:33.069
custodial wallet where the keys are held by
756
00:49:33.690 --> 00:49:34.190
a
757
00:49:34.490 --> 00:49:36.029
trusted members of the community.
758
00:49:36.490 --> 00:49:36.990
But
759
00:49:39.795 --> 00:49:45.974
they can't do that with the lightning portion even though the majority of payments are lightning. So they're just running a single sig
760
00:49:46.799 --> 00:50:01.335
custodial lightning wallet with the majority of the funds held in multisig on chain, and they're just basically writing it off. Like, if that wallet gets compromised or exit scammed or something, like, you only lose the lightning portion. You don't lose, the on chain portion.
761
00:50:01.955 --> 00:50:04.515
762
00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:07.640
there's gonna be a lot of demand for it.
763
00:50:08.260 --> 00:50:15.285
I've yet to even initiate any kind of conversations with protocol dev, so I I don't know how much discussion there's that we've been at that level. But,
764
00:50:15.845 --> 00:50:17.625
if Lao Lou or or Rusty
765
00:50:18.005 --> 00:50:18.505
are
766
00:50:20.165 --> 00:50:20.825
are are listening,
767
00:50:21.205 --> 00:50:23.545
I'll I'll be I'll be chatting with them soon.
768
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:24.619
769
00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:29.500
So so far, we've talked about LDK. We've talked about BDK.
770
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:31.500
We've talked about,
771
00:50:31.924 --> 00:50:36.585
various spiral grants. We've talked about the Bitcoin design community. What do you wanna talk about next?
772
00:50:37.285 --> 00:50:38.664
773
00:50:39.045 --> 00:50:41.224
774
00:50:41.990 --> 00:50:42.650
775
00:50:43.910 --> 00:50:46.010
earlier this year, Jack Dorsey,
776
00:50:47.110 --> 00:50:47.610
announced
777
00:50:47.990 --> 00:50:49.530
a new Bitcoin
778
00:50:49.830 --> 00:50:50.330
endowment,
779
00:50:51.535 --> 00:50:55.555
that he and Jay z are funding and supporting called BTrust,
780
00:50:56.335 --> 00:50:57.635
that's intended to be
781
00:50:58.359 --> 00:51:00.779
an endowment for a a new entity
782
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:02.700
that's focused on Bitcoin,
783
00:51:03.160 --> 00:51:04.859
focused on free open source,
784
00:51:05.835 --> 00:51:06.655
software development.
785
00:51:07.275 --> 00:51:12.480
And Jack would be really a blind trust. So he'd be completely hands off,
786
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:14.580
with this. And and and
787
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:19.220
500 Bitcoin's a lot a lot of a lot of money, so it's a very very
788
00:51:19.600 --> 00:51:20.100
sizable
789
00:51:21.595 --> 00:51:22.095
gift.
790
00:51:22.715 --> 00:51:23.115
And,
791
00:51:23.915 --> 00:51:24.575
you know,
792
00:51:24.955 --> 00:51:25.455
I
793
00:51:25.835 --> 00:51:28.815
I I I don't I don't get the sense that the Bitcoin community really
794
00:51:29.200 --> 00:51:35.539
appreciates yet or is even aware of it, let alone appreciates how impactful this can be over the next 5 to 10 years.
795
00:51:37.775 --> 00:51:38.975
The the,
796
00:51:39.375 --> 00:51:41.635
process for for how to go about this,
797
00:51:42.575 --> 00:51:44.195
is to start with selecting
798
00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:45.840
a board,
799
00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:47.920
and
800
00:51:48.380 --> 00:51:50.000
and then be able to transition
801
00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:51.520
and sort of transition
802
00:51:52.495 --> 00:51:57.475
the Bitcoin and empower that board to go ahead and select a lead and build that a team
803
00:51:58.175 --> 00:51:58.495
to,
804
00:51:58.975 --> 00:52:00.030
to do great things.
805
00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:05.410
So we we put out a call for, applications for board members
806
00:52:05.790 --> 00:52:09.695
and got completely overwhelmed last spring with over 7,000
807
00:52:10.555 --> 00:52:11.055
applications.
808
00:52:11.435 --> 00:52:11.935
809
00:52:12.395 --> 00:52:13.595
810
00:52:14.955 --> 00:52:16.655
yeah, it it was a lot. So,
811
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:27.460
So you threw out all the applications, and then you decided to start it right. Well, that's it. I mean, one way you can go is, like, well, I've you know, I've heard of a few of these names. Let's just go with them. But we we wanted
812
00:52:28.115 --> 00:52:31.494
we wanted to take a a responsible approach where we
813
00:52:31.795 --> 00:52:33.095
really did go through,
814
00:52:33.555 --> 00:52:37.575
you know, all these applications and and have a really thorough process. So
815
00:52:37.900 --> 00:52:39.020
there's no way that,
816
00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:43.039
myself or one person could do this on their own. So, fortunately,
817
00:52:43.579 --> 00:52:46.400
we found an awesome volunteer team.
818
00:52:47.105 --> 00:52:49.045
Carolee and Jonas from Chaincode.
819
00:52:49.825 --> 00:52:51.665
Nice. We're probably familiar with them.
820
00:52:52.225 --> 00:52:54.565
Jacob, who is at Lightning Labs,
821
00:52:56.430 --> 00:53:03.115
Haley, who's on my team, and, Lawrence, who's on the Cash App team. So the the 6 of us,
822
00:53:03.835 --> 00:53:07.295
have been working on this for the past, I don't know, 5, 6 months,
823
00:53:08.715 --> 00:53:09.115
to,
824
00:53:09.675 --> 00:53:15.560
you know, there were multiple filters and levels through this application process. And, ultimately, we did,
825
00:53:16.500 --> 00:53:20.440
a couple video interviews with 30 or so candidates
826
00:53:22.445 --> 00:53:24.865
and narrowed it down to about half a dozen
827
00:53:25.165 --> 00:53:28.065
that just recently met with, with Jack.
828
00:53:29.165 --> 00:53:30.270
And we're we're,
829
00:53:30.710 --> 00:53:35.610
and we've and yeah. And we've so the the board has now been selected. They've been notified,
830
00:53:35.910 --> 00:53:37.770
and we'll we'll announce soon,
831
00:53:38.275 --> 00:53:40.695
who the board members are. But How soon, Steve?
832
00:53:42.755 --> 00:53:53.820
Hopefully hopefully, within hopefully, before the end of the year. That that that's the that's the the hope. But, I I, yeah, I can't say I can't say enough about the applicants in in this process. I was just,
833
00:53:54.915 --> 00:53:58.535
really blown away by the the the the quality of applicants
834
00:53:59.235 --> 00:53:59.895
and their
835
00:54:00.355 --> 00:54:03.890
understand depth of understanding and love and care of Bitcoin.
836
00:54:04.830 --> 00:54:10.850
People That's awesome. All over Africa and India and just Middle East, all over the world. So
837
00:54:11.235 --> 00:54:12.775
that was a really positive experience.
838
00:54:13.715 --> 00:54:17.955
Yeah. So the hope is that beginning in January of the New Year, they they,
839
00:54:18.275 --> 00:54:20.540
they can get get started, and
840
00:54:21.160 --> 00:54:21.480
and,
841
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:28.780
842
00:54:29.204 --> 00:54:29.704
843
00:54:31.765 --> 00:54:34.345
Africa and India is what has been
844
00:54:34.885 --> 00:54:35.385
communicated.
845
00:54:37.420 --> 00:54:38.160
You know, I
846
00:54:38.940 --> 00:54:40.880
think, it's a little bit TBD
847
00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:44.995
and and up to the board to to figure that out.
848
00:54:45.795 --> 00:54:46.695
You could argue,
849
00:54:48.115 --> 00:54:51.015
that maybe, you know, Africa in of itself
850
00:54:51.475 --> 00:54:53.735
is a big enough opportunity and challenge
851
00:54:54.260 --> 00:54:57.000
to, to just focus on on one continent.
852
00:54:58.180 --> 00:55:01.320
You could argue to to do both. You could argue
853
00:55:02.214 --> 00:55:04.474
to expand to to other important
854
00:55:05.175 --> 00:55:13.240
emerging and developing markets like South America and Central America and Southeast Asia, etcetera. So I think I think the the board will have
855
00:55:13.700 --> 00:55:16.279
to evaluate that and figure out the the the best plan.
856
00:55:16.579 --> 00:55:19.640
857
00:55:20.995 --> 00:55:23.895
that are focused on the developing world, I mean,
858
00:55:24.355 --> 00:55:29.495
even if their focus is on a specific geographical location, I imagine they'll have applications everywhere.
859
00:55:30.560 --> 00:55:39.380
860
00:55:39.925 --> 00:55:40.985
Yeah. I would expect
861
00:55:41.285 --> 00:55:43.225
what you you just said to be true.
862
00:55:43.845 --> 00:55:44.825
At the same time,
863
00:55:46.619 --> 00:55:49.440
I would also hope and expect that there's there's,
864
00:55:50.619 --> 00:55:53.680
there are things that are done specifically to enable
865
00:55:54.135 --> 00:55:54.635
the
866
00:55:55.735 --> 00:56:03.195
the cultivation and and growth and development of of of people in in Africa and India working on Bitcoin
867
00:56:03.530 --> 00:56:05.550
and and also just better understanding
868
00:56:05.850 --> 00:56:07.070
local market needs
869
00:56:07.690 --> 00:56:11.790
and challenges that don't exist maybe in Right. Or, you know, western,
870
00:56:12.464 --> 00:56:13.525
other western countries.
871
00:56:14.385 --> 00:56:16.405
872
00:56:17.825 --> 00:56:23.010
not trying to put all Africans and all Indians in the same boat. There's obviously different nuances,
873
00:56:24.109 --> 00:56:35.425
874
00:56:36.365 --> 00:56:42.089
yeah, so so the board will be have a lot of work cut out for them, but I think it's a really exciting opportunity for for for them.
875
00:56:42.710 --> 00:56:45.369
876
00:56:47.035 --> 00:56:50.495
is is this idea that the endowment is in Bitcoin.
877
00:56:52.795 --> 00:56:54.395
So, like, who even knows
878
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:57.460
I mean, when when they made the announcement,
879
00:56:59.680 --> 00:57:00.340
I think
880
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.060
they made the what was it? It was, like, February of last year or January of last year?
881
00:57:05.825 --> 00:57:13.205
882
00:57:14.750 --> 00:57:15.490
883
00:57:17.790 --> 00:57:18.290
So
884
00:57:18.830 --> 00:57:22.290
the endowments already doubled in in in purchasing power.
885
00:57:24.655 --> 00:57:28.995
886
00:57:31.055 --> 00:57:34.670
887
00:57:35.050 --> 00:57:38.110
888
00:57:39.345 --> 00:57:48.405
889
00:57:48.730 --> 00:57:51.310
show what matters. So you have a live view of the mempool.
890
00:57:53.050 --> 00:57:57.390
So, I mean, I don't really care where the price is right now. We can we can check after,
891
00:57:58.175 --> 00:58:01.475
but that it's pretty cool when you start to think about it. Like, so you take,
892
00:58:02.575 --> 00:58:06.515
so it was it was Jack and Jay z. They each put in 250 Bitcoin
893
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:09.020
at whatever price it was at the time,
894
00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:13.100
which I'm telling you, I'm pretty sure it was, like, 25 k or 30 k.
895
00:58:15.135 --> 00:58:15.875
And then
896
00:58:16.255 --> 00:58:18.115
BTrust is gonna be pulling
897
00:58:19.055 --> 00:58:20.115
from that,
898
00:58:21.694 --> 00:58:24.890
is gonna be pulling from that endowment but keeping it in
899
00:58:25.849 --> 00:58:26.589
Bitcoin. So,
900
00:58:28.089 --> 00:58:28.589
presumably,
901
00:58:28.970 --> 00:58:35.985
like, we could end up in a situation, like, if if we're correct and and Bitcoin does increase in price with adoption
902
00:58:36.845 --> 00:58:37.744
and as I,
903
00:58:38.525 --> 00:58:41.505
eloquently state sometimes that it's designed to pump forever,
904
00:58:41.850 --> 00:58:44.270
we can end up in a situation where this endowment
905
00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:49.310
basically never runs out. That it's just a it's a forever endowment,
906
00:58:49.755 --> 00:58:52.734
which is pretty insane to start to try and wrap your head around.
907
00:58:53.355 --> 00:58:55.994
908
00:58:56.474 --> 00:59:00.490
question the board will have to answer is how to manage that treasury,
909
00:59:02.230 --> 00:59:09.425
whether to keep all of it in Bitcoin or convert some to, like, a stable coin or something. Oh, I didn't realize that.
910
00:59:09.725 --> 00:59:14.625
Well, the I mean, these are the I'm just these are possibilities. They they they'll need to determine that.
911
00:59:14.980 --> 00:59:20.920
912
00:59:21.940 --> 00:59:24.885
913
00:59:25.445 --> 00:59:31.225
putting Right. Putting, the right people in place and then really entrusting them. So the the board's gonna have incredible,
914
00:59:32.869 --> 00:59:34.730
you know, you know, responsibility
915
00:59:35.349 --> 00:59:37.690
for this. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be up to them.
916
00:59:39.510 --> 00:59:40.070
I mean, I
917
00:59:40.790 --> 00:59:50.555
like, it's my own expectation that that most or all would be kept in Bitcoin like you're saying. Yeah. That's what I understand. Absolutely has the potential to, you know, appreciate a lot.
918
00:59:51.750 --> 01:00:02.255
And, but, yeah, they'll have also have to determine, like, what what the annual budgets are, how quickly to draw down on that endowment. You could certainly manage it so that it it definitely is perpetual and never never runs out.
919
01:00:02.875 --> 01:00:05.535
Is that the right call or not? Maybe, maybe not.
920
01:00:06.770 --> 01:00:09.590
But it but it should certainly be very long lasting,
921
01:00:10.610 --> 01:00:11.670
in any case.
922
01:00:12.690 --> 01:00:14.150
923
01:00:14.934 --> 01:00:18.474
like, when my grandkids are are reading about, like, the newest,
924
01:00:19.494 --> 01:00:30.109
b trust initiative, like, if they have less than a 100 Bitcoin in their treasury at that point, then they fuck something up, but that's just fine. Yeah. I I I like that. That that's a good, that's a good measuring stick for
925
01:00:30.650 --> 01:00:32.015
926
01:00:34.095 --> 01:00:35.394
927
01:00:36.335 --> 01:00:38.035
what should we discuss next, Steve?
928
01:00:39.454 --> 01:00:48.619
Let's see. Should we talk about the mining initiative at Block? Yeah. Let's talk about this mining initiative. This this is the the the open source design for an ASIC?
929
01:00:49.705 --> 01:00:50.905
930
01:00:51.465 --> 01:00:51.965
so
931
01:00:52.265 --> 01:00:55.725
everyone should be aware. Again, I I I I'm on the spiral team,
932
01:00:57.700 --> 01:01:01.320
very much team Bitcoin outward facing. So I'm I'm not on,
933
01:01:02.420 --> 01:01:04.040
the mining team at Block.
934
01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:14.944
But I do I have worked been working closely with them. I'm really passionate about what they're doing, so I'm happy to share share a little bit of what they're up to beyond what, Jack tweeted a month or so ago.
935
01:01:17.430 --> 01:01:17.930
So,
936
01:01:18.790 --> 01:01:21.049
yeah, so Block is getting into
937
01:01:21.349 --> 01:01:23.210
Bitcoin mining in a in a pretty
938
01:01:23.775 --> 01:01:26.355
substantial way, which I'm I'm excited about.
939
01:01:26.815 --> 01:01:27.135
And,
940
01:01:28.975 --> 01:01:34.210
but the, you know, one observation is is that the ASIC chips themselves,
941
01:01:35.470 --> 01:01:36.609
there's very few
942
01:01:37.230 --> 01:01:37.730
suppliers.
943
01:01:39.390 --> 01:01:41.010
They're geographically concentrated,
944
01:01:41.914 --> 01:01:42.894
and they operate
945
01:01:43.275 --> 01:01:47.295
in a way that doesn't necessarily lend itself to optimizing
946
01:01:47.595 --> 01:01:48.494
for an open
947
01:01:48.795 --> 01:01:49.295
ecosystem
948
01:01:49.674 --> 01:01:51.799
and really sort of growing,
949
01:01:53.460 --> 01:02:00.839
growing the the number of of partners and different companies in the space that can come up with cool new designs for mining rigs.
950
01:02:01.685 --> 01:02:02.825
So with that opportunity,
951
01:02:04.965 --> 01:02:09.145
the the the team at Block is interested and is exploring,
952
01:02:10.359 --> 01:02:11.740
doing a custom basic,
953
01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:13.099
chip
954
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:14.059
themselves,
955
01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:15.980
as well as
956
01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:18.539
a mining rig design,
957
01:02:19.474 --> 01:02:21.815
and doing it in as open a way as possible
958
01:02:22.194 --> 01:02:23.734
to enable other companies,
959
01:02:25.154 --> 01:02:27.095
to build their own mining rigs as well.
960
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:32.580
961
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.700
I think you somehow understated the current issue
962
01:02:38.365 --> 01:02:44.545
of of ASIC manufacturers. I mean, there's 2 main ASIC manufacturers right now, and that's Bitmain and Microbt.
963
01:02:45.359 --> 01:02:49.060
Microbt makes the What's Miners. Bitmain makes the Antminers.
964
01:02:51.359 --> 01:02:52.980
They're both out of Asia.
965
01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:54.820
The
966
01:02:56.625 --> 01:03:00.165
the the the project lead, the founder of Microbt
967
01:03:00.545 --> 01:03:04.405
is actually the, like, one of the ex main guys of Bitmain.
968
01:03:05.970 --> 01:03:09.910
So in a lot of ways, they're kind of one company that was split into 2.
969
01:03:11.650 --> 01:03:14.150
And it would be great to see more competition there.
970
01:03:14.885 --> 01:03:18.265
I I my understanding too was, like, this idea
971
01:03:18.805 --> 01:03:20.325
that it was almost more of a
972
01:03:21.525 --> 01:03:26.000
the focus was gonna be more on, like, a consumer focus level, like,
973
01:03:27.740 --> 01:03:32.960
a a model for an ASIC that, like, all our ASICs nowadays are, like, basically designed,
974
01:03:34.185 --> 01:03:37.965
to be put in in a warehouse. They're, like, made for industrial applications.
975
01:03:39.785 --> 01:03:46.350
Obviously, on dispatch, we've gone through many times about how to how to use them for home mining, and it can be done.
976
01:03:46.730 --> 01:03:51.950
But at their core, they're, like, they're basically designed to be placed in server racks at a warehouse.
977
01:03:52.485 --> 01:03:52.985
Am
978
01:03:53.445 --> 01:03:54.665
I wrong that
979
01:03:55.685 --> 01:03:56.185
that,
980
01:03:56.805 --> 01:03:58.805
the initiative by the block is,
981
01:03:59.685 --> 01:04:02.800
the initiative by block, I guess there's no the by block,
982
01:04:03.339 --> 01:04:12.785
is, focused more on, like like, more of a retail kind of environment? Or am I asking Both right, right, and wrong. So definitely includes that,
983
01:04:13.164 --> 01:04:16.224
984
01:04:16.525 --> 01:04:19.170
that. So at this point, it's early enough,
985
01:04:21.250 --> 01:04:21.750
and
986
01:04:22.290 --> 01:04:25.590
that that that it's being explored both for, like, industrial
987
01:04:26.050 --> 01:04:26.790
farm mining
988
01:04:27.355 --> 01:04:29.935
as well as individual home mining.
989
01:04:30.955 --> 01:04:36.175
Also looking at what can be done, what can be optimized for sustainable energy.
990
01:04:36.750 --> 01:04:39.010
In particular, intermittent sustainable energy
991
01:04:39.630 --> 01:04:40.770
has, you know, certain
992
01:04:41.390 --> 01:04:44.290
unique challenges, both the economic model,
993
01:04:45.325 --> 01:04:45.985
but also
994
01:04:46.685 --> 01:04:51.265
the, the equipment itself. If it's gonna be turned on and off frequently,
995
01:04:51.780 --> 01:04:56.200
it needs to be designed to, to support a lot more cycles than maybe
996
01:04:56.500 --> 01:04:58.200
some of the existing equipment.
997
01:04:58.579 --> 01:05:06.895
998
01:05:07.835 --> 01:05:08.655
999
01:05:09.150 --> 01:05:10.369
definitely design consideration
1000
01:05:11.150 --> 01:05:14.369
from, the the team at Block will be will be that.
1001
01:05:14.910 --> 01:05:18.915
And the and the firmware and the software as well, being able to to,
1002
01:05:20.175 --> 01:05:20.735
boot up
1003
01:05:21.295 --> 01:05:23.555
be able to re you know, reboot very quickly,
1004
01:05:25.215 --> 01:05:30.440
will be will be important. You know, the folks at at brains have done already done good work in that area,
1005
01:05:31.460 --> 01:05:32.920
so which which is fantastic.
1006
01:05:33.460 --> 01:05:46.150
So, anyway, that that that'll be an important consideration. But I but I think, yeah, the the the op the environment we're operating right now, it we've spoken to a number of companies who want who see an opportunity in the market
1007
01:05:46.549 --> 01:05:49.930
to design a mining rig, the actual, like, industrial design
1008
01:05:50.630 --> 01:05:51.349
and the,
1009
01:05:51.910 --> 01:06:00.415
the systems design itself, They they see an opportunity in the market to optimize and customize that, but they're unable to source ASIC chips
1010
01:06:00.875 --> 01:06:01.945
1011
01:06:02.330 --> 01:06:08.910
1012
01:06:09.530 --> 01:06:10.350
in the ecosystem,
1013
01:06:10.845 --> 01:06:22.359
we're gonna see a great expansion of mining into to new segments and meeting new needs that are not met right now by 1 or 2 suppliers. Well, like, a key aspect of their business model is to keep everything proprietary.
1014
01:06:22.820 --> 01:06:23.720
1015
01:06:24.500 --> 01:06:28.040
that I keep their chip designs very close to their chest. Like, nothing's open.
1016
01:06:28.835 --> 01:06:31.174
The firmware is all closed source. Like, you mentioned,
1017
01:06:32.515 --> 01:06:34.535
brains with 2 eyes by Slush,
1018
01:06:35.154 --> 01:06:38.420
who've had many of their team members on dispatch in the past.
1019
01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:43.059
They have their own open source firmware that you can then flash on to Bitmain,
1020
01:06:43.839 --> 01:06:44.339
ASICs.
1021
01:06:44.895 --> 01:06:46.995
But out of the box, it's all closed.
1022
01:06:48.255 --> 01:06:56.530
1023
01:06:58.590 --> 01:07:03.795
to build that firmware because it's such a closed system. So Yeah. They almost have to hack their way onto it, basically.
1024
01:07:04.335 --> 01:07:11.680
I think they do quite a bit you know, they have to do reverse engineering. So the the the plan from block is to be the opposite of that. Be very open,
1025
01:07:12.140 --> 01:07:14.160
be as open as possible. So
1026
01:07:14.540 --> 01:07:15.920
the any kind of
1027
01:07:16.300 --> 01:07:17.599
mining rig designs
1028
01:07:17.945 --> 01:07:26.685
that come from block, the hope and expectation is that they'll be open source so others can leverage those designs and use that. The the any chip,
1029
01:07:27.430 --> 01:07:28.970
that's produced by,
1030
01:07:30.150 --> 01:07:33.770
Block, the data sheets are intended to be to be open.
1031
01:07:35.055 --> 01:07:41.395
1032
01:07:42.620 --> 01:07:47.440
1033
01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:50.560
looking at both is is of interest.
1034
01:07:51.020 --> 01:07:53.805
Produce you know, producing a chip and selling the chip,
1035
01:07:54.525 --> 01:07:57.265
also producing a mining rig and selling that mining rig.
1036
01:07:57.645 --> 01:07:58.545
You could imagine,
1037
01:07:59.540 --> 01:08:00.600
maybe decides,
1038
01:08:01.700 --> 01:08:04.920
that they can produce a really great product for
1039
01:08:07.065 --> 01:08:08.205
for intermittent,
1040
01:08:09.145 --> 01:08:10.285
renewable energy,
1041
01:08:10.984 --> 01:08:14.285
mining, whether it be solar or wind. And so they
1042
01:08:14.910 --> 01:08:21.410
they they might build a a rig around that and sell to that market while still selling the chip and any kind of open source
1043
01:08:23.685 --> 01:08:27.945
and provide any kind of open source system designs to other other partners who
1044
01:08:28.405 --> 01:08:34.330
build mining rigs for other other markets or even the same markets and and compete. So anything's on the table there.
1045
01:08:35.430 --> 01:08:37.210
1046
01:08:37.590 --> 01:08:40.890
1047
01:08:41.615 --> 01:08:45.795
a lot a lot of folks probably have no idea this this, is the case, but
1048
01:08:46.175 --> 01:08:47.375
Block actually has
1049
01:08:47.935 --> 01:08:51.940
this is not, like, completely out of the blue that Block would do hardware.
1050
01:08:52.960 --> 01:09:01.495
And I think most people are familiar. Square has always made hardware, in the pay pay payment From the very beginning. From the very beginning. So hardware is in the DNA of the company.
1051
01:09:02.035 --> 01:09:04.535
But even ASICs, for 6 years now,
1052
01:09:04.995 --> 01:09:06.055
Square has built,
1053
01:09:06.449 --> 01:09:18.034
designed, and built custom ASICs for their payment terminals. So so the company already has ASIC engineers and all the experience that comes Really? Like, the chips the chips in the Square payment terminals are
1054
01:09:18.415 --> 01:09:22.755
1055
01:09:24.110 --> 01:09:27.489
1056
01:09:27.869 --> 01:09:37.375
Yeah. So there the the company already has, you know, engineering chops and expertise in that area, working with foundries and just all of that. So it's it's not like
1057
01:09:38.400 --> 01:09:41.940
it's not like a software company in Silicon Valley just deciding to
1058
01:09:42.320 --> 01:09:43.139
to do chips.
1059
01:09:43.519 --> 01:09:47.595
Having said that, there's a tremendous amount of knowledge needed,
1060
01:09:48.295 --> 01:09:55.515
to do Bitcoin mining rigs. And, so, you know, the the team's gonna have to learn a lot. The team is very interested in in partnering with others.
1061
01:09:56.140 --> 01:09:59.200
So that if we we've already been speaking to a a bunch of companies,
1062
01:09:59.900 --> 01:10:02.400
in the space, but, if there's others who
1063
01:10:02.935 --> 01:10:09.675
who are excited about the opportunity around a more open ecosystem for for mining hardware and and and and software,
1064
01:10:10.215 --> 01:10:10.715
then
1065
01:10:11.530 --> 01:10:13.070
we we would love to speak to them.
1066
01:10:13.770 --> 01:10:19.550
1067
01:10:21.715 --> 01:10:24.614
that they never had any experience with the little headphone jack,
1068
01:10:26.034 --> 01:10:31.940
Square credit card readers where you just, like, plug I mean, there's probably some freaks that don't even know what a headphone jack is nowadays.
1069
01:10:34.080 --> 01:10:41.045
Yeah. Exactly. That's funny. But it's pretty amazing it's pretty amazing how those square those square terminals are everywhere now.
1070
01:10:41.585 --> 01:10:44.005
So many businesses are using those square terminals.
1071
01:10:47.380 --> 01:10:48.920
1072
01:10:49.540 --> 01:10:53.800
stratum v 2 is is a next generation mining protocol. Yes.
1073
01:10:54.180 --> 01:10:58.515
Yeah. It's something that that Brains has done a lot of work on in Slush Pool.
1074
01:10:59.055 --> 01:11:11.820
Matt Corallo and the Spiral team worked worked with them to help define it. Matt had previously worked on a a protocol called Better Hash. That was like his he proposed it first, I think, before stratum v 2 was even a thing.
1075
01:11:12.265 --> 01:11:15.485
Yeah. I I I believe that's the the right chronology.
1076
01:11:16.265 --> 01:11:18.525
And so stratum b 2, I think, has
1077
01:11:19.120 --> 01:11:22.480
most or all of what Matt was hoping to to see in Betterhash. And,
1078
01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:30.625
one thing Spiral's done, we we have a a grant to a developer that goes by FI 3,
1079
01:11:31.485 --> 01:11:34.625
and he has been working for almost,
1080
01:11:35.325 --> 01:11:38.150
almost a year now on an a neutral
1081
01:11:38.530 --> 01:11:41.170
open source implementation of Stratum b 2 that,
1082
01:11:42.850 --> 01:11:46.795
that can be used by any mining pool, any miner in the space. And
1083
01:11:47.175 --> 01:11:59.200
and so the the anything that the block team's doing with respect to to mining rigs and chips will will definitely have Stratum b 2 in mind and be optimizing for that. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, right now,
1084
01:12:00.060 --> 01:12:00.880
1085
01:12:01.980 --> 01:12:02.880
a ASIC
1086
01:12:03.225 --> 01:12:05.885
out of the box, whether that's Bitmain or MicroBT,
1087
01:12:06.425 --> 01:12:08.205
you cannot use Stratum V2.
1088
01:12:10.185 --> 01:12:13.005
If you get a Bitmain miner that supports
1089
01:12:13.449 --> 01:12:14.030
brains firmware,
1090
01:12:16.010 --> 01:12:17.070
open source firmware,
1091
01:12:17.690 --> 01:12:27.324
then you can flash brains onto it, and then you can use Stratum v 2 with slush, but no other pools. So it's definitely very much early days there. If we can get more adoption, that would be fantastic.
1092
01:12:28.184 --> 01:12:28.684
1093
01:12:29.065 --> 01:12:34.260
Yeah. So there's, you know, I think there's a number of opportunities to improve decentralization
1094
01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:35.540
within mining.
1095
01:12:36.320 --> 01:12:37.620
1, at the chip level,
1096
01:12:38.574 --> 01:12:39.715
2, just geographically,
1097
01:12:41.375 --> 01:12:42.915
you know, it would be fantastic
1098
01:12:44.015 --> 01:12:47.475
if, Block and and maybe others who are getting into the
1099
01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:53.940
into the mining space like Blockstream is as well. But just more and more, like you said, more competition, but also more,
1100
01:12:54.480 --> 01:12:55.940
supply chains that are resilient,
1101
01:12:56.365 --> 01:12:59.025
not dependent on one particular country or region
1102
01:12:59.485 --> 01:13:00.785
will really help decentralization,
1103
01:13:01.725 --> 01:13:04.699
and the adoption of strategy too will help as
1104
01:13:05.040 --> 01:13:05.540
well.
1105
01:13:05.880 --> 01:13:08.219
1106
01:13:10.360 --> 01:13:13.000
and and it's sorely needed. I do wonder,
1107
01:13:14.345 --> 01:13:18.925
I mean, mining is a massively competitive space. I do wonder,
1108
01:13:20.025 --> 01:13:24.679
how those dynamics end up working out if there's nothing proprietary there between chips.
1109
01:13:25.940 --> 01:13:27.159
It it should be interesting.
1110
01:13:28.179 --> 01:13:29.640
1111
01:13:29.945 --> 01:13:39.005
you know, it's to be determined what what the exact business model is. But Yeah. I mean, because currently, there's not that many chip manufacturers, I think there's actually Right. Attractive
1112
01:13:39.780 --> 01:13:41.480
attractive revenue and potential
1113
01:13:42.420 --> 01:13:44.600
for the chip, you know, the chips themselves.
1114
01:13:45.700 --> 01:13:53.455
1115
01:13:54.155 --> 01:14:02.500
1116
01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:04.340
than a closed system,
1117
01:14:05.265 --> 01:14:06.864
I think, you know, the,
1118
01:14:07.705 --> 01:14:08.205
the
1119
01:14:08.545 --> 01:14:09.364
those participating
1120
01:14:09.665 --> 01:14:11.605
in this open ecosystem will be
1121
01:14:12.140 --> 01:14:14.380
will can all win and and will will,
1122
01:14:14.780 --> 01:14:16.160
can all can all profit.
1123
01:14:17.500 --> 01:14:17.980
1124
01:14:18.540 --> 01:14:22.925
We have said Trinity in the comments and, like, feel free to tell us both to fuck off.
1125
01:14:23.485 --> 01:14:26.945
But he he's asking, is Spiral working with Square to integrate,
1126
01:14:27.325 --> 01:14:29.425
Bitcoin lightning into Square,
1127
01:14:30.205 --> 01:14:31.425
point of sale terminals?
1128
01:14:34.340 --> 01:14:35.560
1129
01:14:35.940 --> 01:14:38.180
nothing I can comment on specifically, but,
1130
01:14:38.740 --> 01:14:43.395
yes. There's yes. In the sense that we're definitely talking with teams at
1131
01:14:43.695 --> 01:14:44.195
Block
1132
01:14:44.655 --> 01:14:48.835
to integrate Lightning in any software we're working, working on, BDK, LDK.
1133
01:14:49.300 --> 01:14:50.360
But having said that,
1134
01:14:51.380 --> 01:14:57.640
I have had many conversations this year with folks at Coinbase and Kraken and Blockchain dotcom and
1135
01:14:57.994 --> 01:15:02.655
many, many companies in the space, small you know, smaller projects as well, open source projects,
1136
01:15:03.034 --> 01:15:04.554
about adopting our software. So
1137
01:15:14.465 --> 01:15:16.565
with companies who would be considered competitors
1138
01:15:17.025 --> 01:15:18.885
to to Cash App and Block.
1139
01:15:20.225 --> 01:15:23.525
We're we're just optimizing for the adoption of of Bitcoin. So,
1140
01:15:24.250 --> 01:15:28.670
yeah, we're we're talking to a numb number of different companies and projects to to adopt,
1141
01:15:29.449 --> 01:15:31.389
BDK l d and and LDK.
1142
01:15:31.975 --> 01:15:32.475
1143
01:15:33.335 --> 01:15:39.835
Appreciate you, answering that question to that extent. I was not going to ask it unless the Trinity brought it up
1144
01:15:41.619 --> 01:15:45.159
because I have a lot of respect for you, and I knew it was putting you on the spot.
1145
01:15:47.059 --> 01:15:54.025
So I think we should move on to this next topic, which is a topic that, personally, I am extremely excited about,
1146
01:15:55.205 --> 01:15:56.025
which is,
1147
01:15:56.405 --> 01:15:56.905
this
1148
01:15:57.205 --> 01:15:58.985
this hardware wallet initiative.
1149
01:16:00.730 --> 01:16:03.390
1150
01:16:04.170 --> 01:16:06.110
Yeah. So I think it was June.
1151
01:16:07.505 --> 01:16:11.125
I think it was at the Bitcoin conference, in Miami that,
1152
01:16:12.145 --> 01:16:15.925
Block announced or Square at the time announced a hardware wallet project,
1153
01:16:17.410 --> 01:16:19.650
which I I'm equally super excited about.
1154
01:16:20.610 --> 01:16:23.190
One one thing to to make clear is that,
1155
01:16:24.635 --> 01:16:29.775
it's not just a hardware wallet, but but really but it's a combination of hardware and software.
1156
01:16:30.395 --> 01:16:31.295
And the
1157
01:16:31.690 --> 01:16:33.869
the software aspect actually has me personally
1158
01:16:34.330 --> 01:16:35.070
more excited.
1159
01:16:35.449 --> 01:16:37.850
I I, you know, I think think there's definitely room to,
1160
01:16:38.570 --> 01:16:40.510
innovate and and improve the hardware.
1161
01:16:40.975 --> 01:16:48.675
But the the type of software wallet that that team is is looking at has me really excited. They're they're exploring,
1162
01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:51.100
doing a 2 of 3
1163
01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:52.780
multiseg wallet,
1164
01:16:54.200 --> 01:16:58.780
sort of out of out of the box. And I I think a 2 of 3 offers really interesting
1165
01:17:00.474 --> 01:17:02.175
user experience and security
1166
01:17:02.795 --> 01:17:03.295
properties,
1167
01:17:04.074 --> 01:17:10.630
that, a single sig or or other variations don't don't have. There's also the potential to build
1168
01:17:11.250 --> 01:17:13.750
a wallet that can be both a savings,
1169
01:17:15.090 --> 01:17:15.750
you know,
1170
01:17:16.050 --> 01:17:19.395
a savings and a spending wallet all in one and,
1171
01:17:20.574 --> 01:17:22.275
you know, apply different
1172
01:17:22.735 --> 01:17:26.594
US security trade offs to whether it's spending or or Right. Or savings.
1173
01:17:27.050 --> 01:17:30.750
1174
01:17:31.130 --> 01:17:32.190
App, which is
1175
01:17:32.650 --> 01:17:34.510
a product of Block,
1176
01:17:35.685 --> 01:17:37.545
It is a fully custodial wallet.
1177
01:17:38.245 --> 01:17:38.745
My
1178
01:17:39.125 --> 01:17:44.520
understanding of this hardware wallet initiative is that you have a situation where instead
1179
01:17:45.460 --> 01:17:48.760
of Square instead of Cash App holding the keys,
1180
01:17:49.865 --> 01:17:55.645
Cash App holds one key or whatever wallet this ends up being, but block holds one key.
1181
01:17:56.950 --> 01:18:05.930
One key is on the mobile device locally, and then one key is this really cheap hardware wallet that interfaces with the mobile phone.
1182
01:18:06.535 --> 01:18:07.035
So,
1183
01:18:07.655 --> 01:18:08.155
presumably,
1184
01:18:09.975 --> 01:18:13.995
if if something happens and Block doesn't want you to send your transaction,
1185
01:18:14.470 --> 01:18:16.810
you can use the hardware wallet to send.
1186
01:18:17.190 --> 01:18:18.250
But as long
1187
01:18:18.550 --> 01:18:19.530
as block is,
1188
01:18:20.390 --> 01:18:24.695
fine with you sending the transaction, You can keep the hardware wallet in your drawer or something,
1189
01:18:25.235 --> 01:18:25.735
and,
1190
01:18:26.915 --> 01:18:29.815
your your mobile phone signs on one side and
1191
01:18:30.659 --> 01:18:38.040
and, the server signs on the other side using whatever normal fraud detection you have. Is that is that the basic understanding of this project?
1192
01:18:39.385 --> 01:18:41.245
1193
01:18:41.625 --> 01:18:45.725
it's or I'm not on the team, so I don't speak for the team. Right. And secondly,
1194
01:18:46.380 --> 01:18:50.800
it's still super early, so there's really there's no commitment to any particular
1195
01:18:51.340 --> 01:18:52.400
1196
01:18:52.940 --> 01:18:58.545
1197
01:18:59.965 --> 01:19:01.184
is what you just described,
1198
01:19:01.645 --> 01:19:06.290
where you have the 3 keys Fucking awesome. On the phone, 1 on the hardware wallet, 1 in the cloud.
1199
01:19:06.990 --> 01:19:07.890
It's noncustodial,
1200
01:19:08.590 --> 01:19:11.170
in the sense that even if the cloud and and
1201
01:19:11.525 --> 01:19:16.025
the cloud server goes away, you still have your hardware wallet and and and your phone's key.
1202
01:19:16.724 --> 01:19:19.465
And this spending experience can be
1203
01:19:19.980 --> 01:19:21.840
just as simple and easy
1204
01:19:22.300 --> 01:19:28.925
as using Cash App or Venmo or any kind of other type of payment app on your phone.
1205
01:19:29.785 --> 01:19:30.925
And and the customer,
1206
01:19:31.304 --> 01:19:43.010
you know, wouldn't even have to think about keys or 2 of 3 or multisay. They don't have to know anything about that because you're signing with the key in the phone and the one in the cloud, and that's all kind of hidden under the covers.
1207
01:19:43.390 --> 01:19:44.130
To protect
1208
01:19:44.755 --> 01:19:46.135
the customer from
1209
01:19:46.594 --> 01:19:50.775
having their entire wallet drained in case their phone becomes compromised,
1210
01:19:52.275 --> 01:19:53.175
one could put
1211
01:19:53.720 --> 01:19:55.740
a a spending velocity limit
1212
01:19:56.440 --> 01:19:59.820
in in in the cloud, such such that it would only sign a transaction
1213
01:20:00.585 --> 01:20:05.965
for certain certain amounts. And there might be other policies. Something that cache already has, like, fraud detection,
1214
01:20:06.425 --> 01:20:07.485
1215
01:20:07.945 --> 01:20:13.210
1216
01:20:13.590 --> 01:20:14.870
that's an opportunity to,
1217
01:20:15.965 --> 01:20:20.225
access their their hardware wallet in which they'd be it would be unlimited,
1218
01:20:21.324 --> 01:20:27.290
and, again, you know, sell software, and you wouldn't you wouldn't be dependent on any any server or or third party service.
1219
01:20:27.670 --> 01:20:34.885
But it allows the the the customer to you know, they can secure their their hardware wallet in a way that's not as accessible
1220
01:20:35.265 --> 01:20:36.804
perhaps as your phone.
1221
01:20:38.304 --> 01:20:49.820
1222
01:20:50.235 --> 01:20:51.695
And in a worst case scenario,
1223
01:20:52.475 --> 01:20:54.735
you're gonna need this to spend your funds.
1224
01:20:56.475 --> 01:21:02.369
1225
01:21:02.670 --> 01:21:04.530
you know, I think the team's definitely exploring
1226
01:21:04.989 --> 01:21:06.050
using Taproot
1227
01:21:06.475 --> 01:21:08.495
for for 2 or 3. And, also,
1228
01:21:09.835 --> 01:21:11.615
I think the team really cares about,
1229
01:21:13.755 --> 01:21:19.250
growing this to to lots of users. So Lightning Network and as a as a approach to scaling is is,
1230
01:21:19.650 --> 01:21:21.590
is on the table and being explored.
1231
01:21:21.970 --> 01:21:27.455
And this gets back to an earlier conversation about what Spiral and LDK team and what the broader Lightning
1232
01:21:28.075 --> 01:21:30.655
ecosystem needs to be looking at is multisig.
1233
01:21:31.730 --> 01:21:40.470
Building 2 or 3 into Lightning Network so that it could be possible in this wallet or anyone else looking to do a similar type type of wallet,
1234
01:21:41.225 --> 01:21:42.605
as well as integrating
1235
01:21:42.905 --> 01:21:45.165
Taproot into into Lightning Network.
1236
01:21:47.145 --> 01:21:49.165
1237
01:21:50.040 --> 01:21:52.700
I love the trade off balance with this kind of setup.
1238
01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:59.505
Absolutely. I mean, a key aspect here, right, is that is that that actual hardware device
1239
01:22:00.605 --> 01:22:01.505
is gonna be
1240
01:22:02.045 --> 01:22:03.505
is gonna be super cheap,
1241
01:22:03.965 --> 01:22:07.290
air gapped. I mean, I don't know if it's been announced
1242
01:22:08.070 --> 01:22:13.850
specifically, but my guess would be something and you don't have to comment on this. My guess specifically would be something,
1243
01:22:15.185 --> 01:22:20.324
the NFC based so that you could just tap it to the phone. You don't need a battery on it,
1244
01:22:20.945 --> 01:22:22.565
accessible to the whole world.
1245
01:22:23.450 --> 01:22:29.870
Most of the developing world already has a mobile phone, so they would just need, you know, a $10 device, a $5 device,
1246
01:22:30.955 --> 01:22:31.455
and
1247
01:22:31.915 --> 01:22:36.655
they would have relatively strong security guarantees in a very easy UX.
1248
01:22:38.500 --> 01:22:39.000
1249
01:22:39.539 --> 01:22:43.239
Actually, folks that are interested in this, they they're they have a Substack.
1250
01:22:44.179 --> 01:22:47.480
I think it's Square self custody dot substack.com.
1251
01:22:48.965 --> 01:22:54.665
And, they've they've published a couple newsletters, and I think they plan to to regularly publish newsletters.
1252
01:22:55.045 --> 01:22:57.865
In their most recent one, they they did say that,
1253
01:22:59.430 --> 01:23:08.445
they they referenced NFC as being the the interface the the most likely interface that they'll they'll use to communicate. So which is definitely an
1254
01:23:08.905 --> 01:23:11.005
interesting choice. I think it's a I think it's a good
1255
01:23:11.385 --> 01:23:16.925
choice, but, you know, in contrast to using Bluetooth or USB or QR codes or other other mechanisms.
1256
01:23:18.040 --> 01:23:20.860
I believe it's the case that they, you know, very much want to,
1257
01:23:22.120 --> 01:23:26.860
accommodate a world in a in a customer who is mobile first or mobile only,
1258
01:23:27.905 --> 01:23:28.805
and not assume
1259
01:23:29.265 --> 01:23:32.405
not assume a laptop or desktop computer system.
1260
01:23:32.705 --> 01:23:35.445
1261
01:23:36.400 --> 01:23:39.860
is the lack of a dedicated screen on the hardware device,
1262
01:23:40.560 --> 01:23:41.860
to actually verify
1263
01:23:42.240 --> 01:23:43.220
what you're signing
1264
01:23:45.965 --> 01:23:54.385
on the on on the hardware device itself. But I think the trade off basically comes down to cost. So presumably, you could do the same exact setup
1265
01:23:54.989 --> 01:24:02.530
with a device similar to, like, a seed signer that has a camera on it and a screen, and you could do it all through QR codes.
1266
01:24:03.915 --> 01:24:08.015
But the advantage of an NFC based device is no battery,
1267
01:24:08.555 --> 01:24:11.775
extremely low cost. Like, you can drill down that cost tremendously.
1268
01:24:13.120 --> 01:24:16.580
So as with everything with Bitcoin, it'd be nice if there's options there.
1269
01:24:17.360 --> 01:24:22.764
1270
01:24:23.065 --> 01:24:25.965
And back in June in the original tweet announcement,
1271
01:24:27.625 --> 01:24:29.645
it was noted that that was being considered.
1272
01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:32.269
You know, the advantages with no display,
1273
01:24:32.570 --> 01:24:33.949
like, as you just mentioned,
1274
01:24:34.250 --> 01:24:36.030
you can hit a lower price point,
1275
01:24:36.409 --> 01:24:41.045
and a lower price point has a lot of advantages. You can reach a lot more people around the world.
1276
01:24:41.505 --> 01:24:43.045
You can have much simpler device,
1277
01:24:45.500 --> 01:24:46.140
and and,
1278
01:24:46.540 --> 01:24:47.040
but
1279
01:24:47.980 --> 01:24:50.320
there needs to be an evaluation, and and
1280
01:24:50.700 --> 01:24:54.160
and, hopefully, there's a lot of feedback from the broader community on the security
1281
01:24:54.685 --> 01:24:55.425
trade offs.
1282
01:24:56.365 --> 01:24:57.745
My hope is that
1283
01:24:58.445 --> 01:25:01.185
if one assumes a multisig 2 of 3,
1284
01:25:01.805 --> 01:25:04.280
as well as perhaps some other design aspects that
1285
01:25:04.580 --> 01:25:05.400
it will be,
1286
01:25:07.300 --> 01:25:14.425
a credible approach and a and a and and meet a security bar for the types of uses for for the product, but that's,
1287
01:25:14.825 --> 01:25:17.725
that still needs to be it still needs to be evaluated.
1288
01:25:18.345 --> 01:25:22.280
1289
01:25:22.660 --> 01:25:29.640
that it'd be great if if Bitcoiners have many different options with different trade offs. I mean, another major trade off with this kind of model,
1290
01:25:30.415 --> 01:25:33.075
is that, obviously, who's ever running the server,
1291
01:25:33.455 --> 01:25:35.315
whether that's Block or someone else,
1292
01:25:36.495 --> 01:25:38.675
has full purview into your transactions.
1293
01:25:39.210 --> 01:25:42.670
So it's it's not sovereign in a privacy way.
1294
01:25:43.850 --> 01:25:46.430
But if you compare that to a,
1295
01:25:47.344 --> 01:25:54.965
you know, a a hosted custodial wallet where you have you have no privacy and you have no control over your funds at the same time,
1296
01:25:55.720 --> 01:26:02.460
it is a massive improvement there. And there's gonna be all different options for Bitcoiners. And as they move up through,
1297
01:26:03.065 --> 01:26:09.325
their Bitcoin journey, they they might upgrade to more more private options, and it's all just a path.
1298
01:26:09.865 --> 01:26:10.365
1299
01:26:12.250 --> 01:26:14.829
1300
01:26:15.290 --> 01:26:20.110
do you have any interest in discussing TBD at all, the decentralized exchange proposal?
1301
01:26:22.435 --> 01:26:26.055
1302
01:26:28.020 --> 01:26:34.580
I think it might be good to have a a a separate show where you have Mike or someone from the TBD team on. But,
1303
01:26:35.380 --> 01:26:41.864
1304
01:26:42.885 --> 01:26:46.550
1305
01:26:47.110 --> 01:26:53.929
1306
01:26:54.635 --> 01:27:00.415
if if they're listening to that show, but it's the same I mean, I don't I don't think there's, like, any, like, unique,
1307
01:27:01.435 --> 01:27:03.455
1308
01:27:04.160 --> 01:27:08.500
different than what's already been publicly shared. Like, the, you know, the white paper is published, and
1309
01:27:08.880 --> 01:27:15.445
and, I think it's at a high level being communicated about what what they plan to do. And beyond that, I don't I don't really have a whole lot to add.
1310
01:27:15.745 --> 01:27:16.565
1311
01:27:16.945 --> 01:27:18.965
Another project I'm very excited about.
1312
01:27:19.665 --> 01:27:24.860
And then we have Hello Bitcoin on the list. You wanna discuss that a little bit?
1313
01:27:25.719 --> 01:27:26.620
1314
01:27:27.239 --> 01:27:29.100
one of my best friends, Matt Belez,
1315
01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:30.699
started Hello Bitcoin,
1316
01:27:32.375 --> 01:27:37.035
And the the goal with Hello Bitcoin, if you're not familiar with it, is is just create
1317
01:27:37.415 --> 01:27:39.275
both content and a community
1318
01:27:39.950 --> 01:27:47.489
that's, very warm and welcoming to beginners. And so it's introductory material to Bitcoin. So it's Bitcoin focused. It's all open source.
1319
01:27:49.145 --> 01:27:49.645
And
1320
01:27:50.025 --> 01:27:53.005
so far, there's been 3 videos produced
1321
01:27:53.385 --> 01:27:55.085
that I think are on the order of
1322
01:27:55.489 --> 01:27:58.389
6:6 to 10 minutes long, relatively short.
1323
01:28:00.130 --> 01:28:01.750
Con Connor from my team,
1324
01:28:02.449 --> 01:28:07.725
is the is the in in the first couple of videos and does a great job. He's great in them.
1325
01:28:08.025 --> 01:28:13.440
Yeah. He he just he, you know, he really cares about Bitcoin. You can tell it, and he just speaks well to it.
1326
01:28:14.480 --> 01:28:18.340
1327
01:28:19.440 --> 01:28:24.665
as well. Hello Bitcoin does. And their website is hello it's hello Bitcoin, but it's
1328
01:28:25.145 --> 01:28:25.805
the the
1329
01:28:26.505 --> 01:28:30.445
the dot is between the o and the I. So it's hello bitco.in.
1330
01:28:33.469 --> 01:28:35.570
1331
01:28:35.949 --> 01:28:44.435
that I I really think those videos are are great, but if you look at the number of views, it it needs to be a 100 x that. So we we we need to find as a community, I think,
1332
01:28:45.055 --> 01:28:51.170
everyone listening, hopefully, take a look at those. And I think these can become go to resources when you're introducing
1333
01:28:51.790 --> 01:28:55.090
friends and family members and people new to Bitcoin. It can be really good.
1334
01:28:56.135 --> 01:28:58.474
There's also a desire on Hello Bitcoin to
1335
01:28:58.934 --> 01:29:00.795
to grow the community aspect.
1336
01:29:01.175 --> 01:29:06.440
I think there's an opportunity to create a a warm, friendly environment that still
1337
01:29:07.300 --> 01:29:10.280
that that retains Bitcoin ethos and discipline,
1338
01:29:11.695 --> 01:29:15.715
but is maybe a different flavor than what we see on Twitter.
1339
01:29:18.175 --> 01:29:19.395
I I I do think,
1340
01:29:20.120 --> 01:29:22.700
you know, on Twitter, I feel like it's a daily battle.
1341
01:29:23.160 --> 01:29:24.620
And I, you know, I
1342
01:29:25.320 --> 01:29:29.100
I enjoy it, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. So I think there's a lot of people
1343
01:29:29.605 --> 01:29:34.505
who would wanna, you know, have an environment where they're comfortable to ask basic questions.
1344
01:29:35.764 --> 01:29:43.080
They're genuinely trying to learn. They're not trying to, like, sell shill an altcoin or something like that. And, there needs to be
1345
01:29:43.460 --> 01:29:48.120
an environment and forum for that. So hello Bitcoin is is a is a possibility there.
1346
01:29:48.695 --> 01:29:56.295
Haley on my team, I think, is gonna start getting more involved with Hello Bitcoin and and grow the community aspect. So I'm I'm excited to see what what can go,
1347
01:29:56.935 --> 01:29:58.850
what can what can happen there.
1348
01:29:59.710 --> 01:30:03.970
1349
01:30:04.430 --> 01:30:08.554
you know, I've been very focused on myself, which is trying to make Bitcoin more accessible,
1350
01:30:11.094 --> 01:30:12.554
particularly to beginners,
1351
01:30:13.094 --> 01:30:15.195
but also to just people that are
1352
01:30:16.780 --> 01:30:20.720
going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, and they just wanna improve their their understanding
1353
01:30:21.100 --> 01:30:22.240
and their usage.
1354
01:30:24.125 --> 01:30:27.185
So, I mean, I have a lot of respect for them. They're doing a really great job,
1355
01:30:27.965 --> 01:30:30.225
and happy to support them with the channel at bitcointv.com.
1356
01:30:32.844 --> 01:30:33.670
And and
1357
01:30:34.630 --> 01:30:38.870
Go ahead. We have we have we have Bitkite in the in the comments who's running,
1358
01:30:40.230 --> 01:30:41.989
the Nashville Big Corners meetup.
1359
01:30:42.415 --> 01:30:46.755
Just meetups in general, like local community meetups, I think, do a lot here,
1360
01:30:47.614 --> 01:30:52.640
and just getting them around the world and and making that process easier for people to run meetups,
1361
01:30:54.540 --> 01:31:02.545
that are that are Bitcoin focused and and focus on, in my my opinion, the important things rather than, you know, trading and get rich quick schemes.
1362
01:31:03.645 --> 01:31:04.145
So
1363
01:31:04.605 --> 01:31:09.505
I I think we're slowly moving in that direction, and I think it goes hand in hand with our earlier conversations
1364
01:31:09.830 --> 01:31:13.290
around LDK, BDK, and Bitcoin Design Community where you have
1365
01:31:13.670 --> 01:31:17.510
actual tools that are easier to use from the ground up so you don't need as much,
1366
01:31:19.235 --> 01:31:19.735
education.
1367
01:31:20.435 --> 01:31:29.310
But, no matter what, we're still gonna need an education component because Bitcoin is so radically different, than than the traditional systems that people are used to. Right?
1368
01:31:30.730 --> 01:31:31.550
1369
01:31:33.545 --> 01:31:38.285
Another thing I wanted to point out about how hello Bitcoin is it's another example of where the Bitcoin design community
1370
01:31:38.985 --> 01:31:41.280
has contributed and and made an impact.
1371
01:31:41.679 --> 01:31:45.699
If you if you look at the the 3rd video from Hello Bitcoin, there's some,
1372
01:31:46.559 --> 01:31:53.695
there's some visuals and motion graphics, and that that was done by volunteers within the design community, which I thought was awesome.
1373
01:31:54.395 --> 01:31:57.535
The Hello Bitcoin 4th video, which will be on
1374
01:31:57.915 --> 01:31:58.415
on
1375
01:31:59.120 --> 01:31:59.940
energy usage,
1376
01:32:00.719 --> 01:32:02.580
which is always a fun topic to cover.
1377
01:32:03.040 --> 01:32:04.739
It's gonna be coming out soon.
1378
01:32:05.199 --> 01:32:12.295
Aiming to to publish it before Christmas. We'll see if that can be met, but that also has a tremendous amount of,
1379
01:32:12.775 --> 01:32:14.875
help from from the design community.
1380
01:32:16.270 --> 01:32:20.449
1381
01:32:21.230 --> 01:32:27.215
it's like very much a flywheel where all these different projects are helping each other out and and
1382
01:32:28.315 --> 01:32:30.735
and making everything more robust in the process.
1383
01:32:31.355 --> 01:32:41.310
1384
01:32:41.625 --> 01:32:48.525
sort of loose affiliations, but we're all in we all share this common bond of wanting to see Bitcoin adoption and Bitcoin succeed.
1385
01:32:48.990 --> 01:33:00.355
And it just lowers the barriers to working, collaborate with other people on a project. Like like, historically, you know, you get hired by a company, and you only work with people who are employees,
1386
01:33:01.454 --> 01:33:11.420
at that company. And it it would be, like, foreign and weird to work with employees at other companies. And that's just not the case here at all. You don't it doesn't matter who you work for,
1387
01:33:12.835 --> 01:33:15.475
or or where you're from. Anyone can can,
1388
01:33:16.034 --> 01:33:31.905
can join forces, and and there's just you know? So maybe in another show, we could talk about that because there's many projects I've I've either been involved with or have observed where they they happen so quickly and can get off the ground so quickly with people who have never met in in in real life
1389
01:33:32.364 --> 01:33:32.844
and,
1390
01:33:33.324 --> 01:33:35.344
and really haven't worked with each other before.
1391
01:33:36.045 --> 01:33:36.925
But it's just it's
1392
01:33:37.970 --> 01:33:44.710
I feel like team Bitcoins are you've there's there's, the pillars in place to make it so there's there's a little friction to get projects started.
1393
01:33:45.864 --> 01:33:47.545
1394
01:33:49.225 --> 01:33:51.244
I feel that too. It's a very special,
1395
01:33:52.930 --> 01:33:56.230
it's a very special community and place we find ourselves in. And
1396
01:33:56.610 --> 01:34:00.370
I don't really think I need to tell you this, but you are always welcome on,
1397
01:34:00.930 --> 01:34:02.070
any of my shows.
1398
01:34:03.215 --> 01:34:10.195
I love having conversations with you, and I really do appreciate the work all the work you're doing. I like having conversations with you online and offline.
1399
01:34:12.639 --> 01:34:15.940
So, yeah, you're always welcome. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.
1400
01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:22.005
So, I mean, I we're you're a busy man. We're nearing the end of our of our time here.
1401
01:34:22.705 --> 01:34:27.125
Do you have anything else you wanna cover? Any final thoughts, before we wrap this up?
1402
01:34:27.985 --> 01:34:29.925
1403
01:34:30.700 --> 01:34:32.080
that we are hiring,
1404
01:34:32.620 --> 01:34:33.500
for for,
1405
01:34:34.060 --> 01:34:35.680
the the mining project
1406
01:34:36.060 --> 01:34:37.600
at at block is hiring.
1407
01:34:39.125 --> 01:34:44.425
The, the wallet project is as well. And my my team is too. So my my team's
1408
01:34:44.805 --> 01:34:48.120
looking to hire 3 more engineers to work on on LDK.
1409
01:34:49.219 --> 01:34:50.360
So anyone listening,
1410
01:34:50.980 --> 01:34:53.719
interested in in a position in any of those teams,
1411
01:34:54.179 --> 01:34:55.159
or know someone?
1412
01:34:56.315 --> 01:35:03.855
I I think for the for mining and for the wallet, just I think the best place to go would be check out the the block website for jobs.
1413
01:35:04.620 --> 01:35:05.420
For spiral specifically,
1414
01:35:07.260 --> 01:35:09.840
you can reach out to me. I'm Moneyball on Twitter,
1415
01:35:10.540 --> 01:35:22.290
or you can apply you can go to our website, and there there's information about how to apply. But I think the email is, apply at Square Crypto dot org. Still have to change the the domain name there, but for now, it's
1416
01:35:23.250 --> 01:35:25.090
that's actually on on my to do list.
1417
01:35:25.490 --> 01:35:29.030
But it's ready. Yeah. Apply at Square Crypto dot org.
1418
01:35:31.074 --> 01:35:32.375
1419
01:35:33.074 --> 01:35:40.160
Huge shout out to the freaks who joined us. Thank you for joining us. And, Steve, thank you so much for your work. Thank you for your time. Really do appreciate it.
1420
01:35:40.940 --> 01:35:47.864
And I look forward to, seeing you in person again sometime soon. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Bye, everyone. Cheers.
1421
01:36:14.830 --> 01:36:16.210
1422
01:37:13.815 --> 01:37:16.235
1423
01:37:17.094 --> 01:37:19.594
Oh, you are yet to learn how to speak.
1424
01:37:43.225 --> 01:37:44.685
About things? Believe me.
1425
01:37:45.305 --> 01:37:47.965
I will always be there so
1426
01:37:48.585 --> 01:37:51.565
you can tell me anything and I'll listen.
1427
01:38:08.970 --> 01:38:10.510
While we are together,
1428
01:38:11.050 --> 01:38:12.350
there is anywhere
1429
01:38:12.730 --> 01:38:14.350
that I would rather be.
1430
01:38:16.304 --> 01:38:18.324
Three birds of a pepper,
1431
01:38:19.105 --> 01:38:21.605
I just hope you enjoy our company.
1432
01:38:22.304 --> 01:38:23.520
It's been some
1433
01:38:52.775 --> 01:38:54.315
anything in a listen.
1434
01:38:55.415 --> 01:38:56.155
I might
1435
01:38:56.615 --> 01:38:58.235
even know what to say.
1436
01:39:57.070 --> 01:40:00.530
1437
01:40:01.704 --> 01:40:06.764
Thank you again for all your support with the show. If you prefer to support the show through merch,
1438
01:40:07.224 --> 01:40:08.364
go to seal dispatch.com/stack.
1439
01:40:10.470 --> 01:40:15.770
I hope you all enjoy your holiday. As a reminder, I am going to be taking a break for Christmas,
1440
01:40:16.710 --> 01:40:21.255
over the next 2 weeks. We will be back on January 4th with the fire dispatch
1441
01:40:21.795 --> 01:40:23.175
and another Bitcoin Tuesday.
1442
01:40:23.555 --> 01:40:30.760
Rabbit hole recap will be on Thursday, and we will not be taking any breaks for rabbit hole recap as is tradition over the last 3 years.
1443
01:40:31.060 --> 01:40:32.760
Stay humble. Stack stats.
