Dec. 7, 2021
CD47: the future of bitcoin nodes and the nodlito with @ketominer and @IAskuwheteau
EPISODE: 47
BLOCK: 713088
PRICE: 1959 sats per dollar
TOPICS: the future of bitcoin nodes, nodlito, cloud services, tradeoffs, el salvador, custodial wallets, hardware failures, mesh nets, onboarding merchants in the developing world
@ketominer: https://twitter.com/ketominer
@IAskuwheteau: https://twitter.com/IAskuwheteau
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00:00 - The Solomon family's view on crypto
00:21 - Digitization and disruption in financial services
01:35 - The future of Bitcoin nodes
48:33 - Be modems and power over Ethernet
49:04 - Hosting virtual machines on nodal boxes
50:50 - Suitability of hardware for running a routing node
51:37 - Bottleneck in running a routing node
53:14 - Trust issues with Lightning nodes
57:07 - Subscription model for Nodle Cloud
01:00:28 - SD card endurance and failure rates
01:06:33 - Potential for mesh networking
01:10:14 - Future of Bitcoin users using custodial providers or self-hosted nodes
01:13:17 - Jurisdictional arbitrage as a service
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:29:32 PM
Duration: 4835.657
Channels: 1
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I said I
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Crypto. Has the Solomon family changed its view on crypto? Do you do you own Bitcoin or Ethereum personally? I don't I don't personally own Bitcoin or Ethereum, and I don't I I don't have a strong view. When you say I've changed my view, I don't I don't know what you think my view is. My view on on on Bitcoin, for example, is I really don't know, but it's really not something, you know, individually that's important to me. Right. I'm a big believer
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in the digitization,
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that is occurring and the disruption that's occurring
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in the way financial services are delivered, as I said to you, both for institutions and for individuals. I think it's a massive shift.
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We're trying to participate in it Right. Based on what we're doing around Goldman Sachs Marcus and our digital banking platform. Do you want your clients in it? I'm sorry? Do you want your clients in it? I I want our clients to to to do what they think they wanna do. As a speculative asset, is it interesting, and are some of our clients participating?
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Absolutely.
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But
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whether it goes up or down, my guess is look at the last week. It's gonna go up. It's gonna go down. I don't know what the permanent state of Bitcoin is, but I think Bitcoin
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is really not the key thing. The key thing
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is how can blockchain or other technologies that are not developed yet accelerate the pace of the digitization
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of the way financial services are delivered. And I, you know, I just talked to you about our digital bank. You know that we just made an announcement
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out at AWS
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reinvent Yep. About a platform, the financial cloud, that we're building in partnership with AWS for institutional clients.
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All of that is the changing of the digital processes
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that kinda lubricate the way financial services are delivered. And I think that's a big opportunity and we're excited about that. And that gives your clients it's almost direct
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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That dude on the clip
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was the CEO of Goldman Sachs showing the whole world that he is
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completely unaware of the revolution that is Bitcoin. If you do not think it's early,
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you are not gonna make it.
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We have a very special,
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show on deck here for you today. It's a conversation that I've been looking forward to,
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with 2 good friends.
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Before we get started, I just wanted to do a shout out to the ride or die who continue to support the show, keep it ad free and sponsor free, and focus on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
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You guys,
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make this
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you make dispatch happen every week, and I really do appreciate it.
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And a massive shout out to the rider dive freaks who join us in the live chat, providing your comments and your questions.
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You make this show unique. Keep it coming. I do appreciate you.
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The easiest way to support dispatch
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is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites
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are Fountain Podcasts and Breeze. That's b r e e z.
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If you use those apps, you can load it up with sats, you can search Citadel dispatch, and you can stream sats directly to my lightning note. You can also support the show by going to sidildispatch.com, where you can support it through lightning
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or through my samurai painting, which is Odell. Very easy to remember. So thank you again for your support.
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You can also buy a hat if you wanna support the show. A lot of freaks prefer to go that method. They've been sold out for a long time, but they are back in stock,
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and they are shipping globally. They should arrive
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before Christmas unless
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you're located in Australia
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where shipping takes longer, and then they'll probably arrive 1st week of January.
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If you wanna hack, cildispatch.com/stack,
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you can also get a flask,
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magnets, or pins through that link. So thank you, freaks.
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This is serial dispatch 47.
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We're gonna be focusing on the future Bitcoin nodes and specifically
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Nodal's new Nodalito.
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They're calling it the Nodal Lite, but I hope by the end of this conversation,
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we will have agreed that it will be referred to as the Nautilito going forward.
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I got 2 of my good friends here, the founders of Nautil.
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We have KetoMiner, return guest. How's it going, KetoMiner?
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What's up, Chris? Good to be here again.
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And we have Asquuu. How's it going, Asquuu?
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I'm good. Good. Hi, guys. I think it's Asquoo's first time on dispatch, so give him a warm welcome. Thank you for finally joining us.
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Mhmm. So first off,
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my head's a little all over the place. I am in the process of moving. I'm literally surrounded by boxes right now, so I apologize to the freaks,
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if you can tell.
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We're gonna make this conversation the show must go on, so we're gonna make this conversation happen, and I am looking forward to it.
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We have where should we get started? I I think, an interesting place to get started here
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is ask who just got back from El Salvador. What were your experiences like in El Salvador? Did it change, like, your view on how how to move forward both as a Bitcoiner and, you know, as as a founder of a Bitcoin company focused on notes?
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I don't know.
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I I
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you just mentioned Nautilato, actually. I was reading through the comments. You know, the moment you start the show, the comments pour in, which is really funny. And before you said anything,
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Crypto Clydesdale,
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went up and said something about Nautilato.
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So one of the things that I'm really curious about here is,
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does that name catch on? Because,
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you're you're a big supporter of it, I think.
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Quincher is the one who came up with it, and and we kinda like it. It's growing on us. So if anybody wants to tell us how how they feel about it, I'm I'm really curious. I mean, Nautilito is clearly the better better name. It seems to be. So we we will not be sure by the end of the show. It's the lit it's the little Nautil.
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It's like a perfect Exactly. Yeah. Sam agrees.
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So, I mean, we can jump in we can just jump directly into the Natalito. I mean, we have a lot to talk about there. But before we I'm not gonna just let you off the hook. El Salvador didn't your experience in El Salvador didn't change your perspective at all?
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It
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was,
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a little bit of an eye opener
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just because,
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I think it's a new stage.
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I agree with you when you say it's super early. I still think it's super early. I tell everybody who wants to hear that it's still super early. But
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I think when we launched the first model a few years ago,
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Lightning had just come out, and it wasn't that big of a deal yet.
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It's really become a big deal lightning last year, and,
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we felt a big difference.
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And now, like, countries being onboarded to Bitcoin is another big stage.
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And,
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you know, you would have told me that a couple years ago.
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That's what we wanted to see,
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but I didn't think it was that close.
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And,
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it's here. It's real. I mean, it it's, it's a really big deal. So,
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it's, it's very humbling to see how much has been done
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and yet, you know, just just realize how much you still have to do in a in a way. But it's catching on big time big time.
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So And anybody who's missed it, really, I mean, it's stupid not to go. You you should go within the year. You know? Go check it out.
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Are you you're talking to me?
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Well, no.
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Yes. I am.
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I'm talking to you, Theo.
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Asquuu made sure to,
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he he he made he made sure to,
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message me
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many times
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about me not making the trip to El Salvador yet and not going down with him. So I do I will apologize to you on air that I wasn't able to make it happen,
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but I do intend to go very soon. I think he also,
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you, like, sent out a subtweet where you were kind of,
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going after me a little bit for not going. So I didn't notice that. Just a personal message. Just you.
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It's probably a good idea to go outside of this conference context, though,
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to see what it really looks like. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was my excuse as well. But,
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at the end of the day, it's an excuse.
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Yeah. But I think, a lot of people said, and that's how I feel at least, you know, come back every year for 5 years, see how much of a difference, like,
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you can notice
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on-site
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is probably really smart thing to do.
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But that being said,
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Bitcoiners are just gonna pour in every single week,
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into the country.
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And not only, like, San Salvador, Al Zante, etcetera, but, like, all over the place,
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probably the neighboring countries too.
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And, they'll get a continuous flow of Bitcoiners coming in now. And and that, I think, is really interesting. So you can go whenever you want, really.
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Love it.
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Yeah.
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Were you there for the actual when they announced the Bitcoin City and the Bitcoin Bonds?
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Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was getting a round of beers for the friends.
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What were your what were your thoughts on that?
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It it was a a weird experience. I think,
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you get into the the because it's a night club, basically. You go into the night club. You wait for the president for 2 hours till it fills up. It's really packed.
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ACDC,
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fireworks, all that shit. You know? But,
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it was the first time when you enter the club, instead of having, like, a VIP
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lane, you have the big corner lane kind of thing. So they park us all in front of him.
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And
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while he makes his announcement, he's actually looking at us. Like, it's the first time, like, people talk to us as a Bitcoin crowd directly
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saying,
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it's you guys we want here because
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we believe in what you guys are doing. There's value that you guys add
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that we think beats the market.
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And,
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we want to make it known to the entire world that we're we're gonna cater to you and compete with them on, you know, taxes and basically
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economic strategy.
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So it's the first time
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like, a government talks to us as Bitcoiners.
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And I was there in the crowd, and it's kinda weird.
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Mixed feelings,
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but it's interesting.
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It's been something that a lot of us, Bitcoiners, have been expecting for a while, and it's kinda unreal. I mean, I wasn't there, but I I saw, you know, the tweets coming out live,
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as it was happening. It's kinda unreal to see it happen. I mean,
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you know, friend of
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good friend Parker Lewis, you know, he he likes to say gradually then suddenly, and it really felt like a gradually then suddenly kinda situation where
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up until the exact point where it happens, it feels like, oh, well, it will take a while, before you start to see a nation state really court Bitcoiners
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and and lean into Bitcoin hard and and actually have, you know, a relatively coherent
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long term Bitcoin strategy.
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And then before you know it, it's actually happening,
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which is pretty crazy. Yeah. And I think that's the experience. Once you you go there and you see it, you're like, well,
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it doesn't make that much difference, and yet the world will never be the same again
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because they took that extra step.
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And it's nice to be there to see it.
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And now everyone's like, okay. What's what's the next country? You, like, immediately move on to
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where where where do we go here from here? You know?
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Yeah. I guess that's one of my hopes that several countries follow-up
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soon
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so that they don't get to be singled out and become too big of a target, because
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I'd be afraid if I were him.
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That's one thing. And,
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2, so that they can run their own experiments and potentially do it differently because, you know, that's just one example. They'll do it one way. There's probably other ways to do it.
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The more the better, I guess.
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100%. I mean, it's just like everything else in Bitcoin.
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When you when you have a first mover,
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they obviously have an advantage, but
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in terms of censorship resistance and
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distribution, you you you want you want some competition there. You want other people joining the fray.
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I think it's as true for
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countries as it is for ASIC producers or node producers
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or wallets, mobile wallets, what whatever it is in Bitcoin land,
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you want as many options as possible, and they kind of help protect each other. Absolutely.
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Let's,
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let's bring it back to Nodl. I mean, so Nodl is a company that you guys both founded,
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that was at the forefront of this idea of a plug and play note box.
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I remember when the first model came out,
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all these players that you see today didn't really exist.
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I'm pretty sure my note didn't exist. Umbral didn't exist.
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I don't think Raspberry Pi Blitz existed yet, but the Raspberry Pi Bolt project existed.
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I think you already did, but some very early version of it. Yeah. It was super early. Lightning was super early. I had the original model.
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I think I was, like, one of the first 10 or 15 people to have the original model.
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When was that? What year was that? 2019, 2018?
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2018, I believe. Yeah. End of 2018.
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Yeah. Yes.
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So we had so I think I got the original model 20, like, January 2019.
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Yeah. You got the one on 1st 21.
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Yeah. I still have it. You guys signed it.
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Then you came out with the Nautil Dojo,
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which is a more high end box.
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It had redundant
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drives on it, redundant,
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SSDs. It it was encrypted by default.
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It had a kill switch. It still exists. You guys still sell it.
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I guess I came, like, a year later. I have the first one that was produced.
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Very proudly still own both of those nozzles.
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And now we have this new product, the Nodalite. So those first two nozzles
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were very much geared to the enthusiast crowd,
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to the Bitcoiner that is obsessed with Bitcoin,
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that wants to
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upgrade their experience and tinker with the tools.
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It feels like the Nautilito,
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or the Nautilite, as you call it, is
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is a is a different approach here. It's it's geared towards
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this,
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this this new
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class of Bitcoiner that's, you know, maybe a merchant, maybe in a developing world, maybe doesn't really know that much about Bitcoin yet.
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What is your perspective there on on how
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you view your customers evolving and,
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you know, the birth of the Natalito?
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Well, we
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we think that not
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everybody wants to
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host,
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their box at home or in their office because some people can't and some people,
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just don't have
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a good place for that or good connectivity
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or or whatever.
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So we we actually started with an old cloud, which is the cloud version of the of the boxes. It provides the same service as it runs your full node,
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Bitcoin core with
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LNG, BTC, pay server, the whole stack.
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And
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then we started thinking, like, not everybody wants to run, like, the full stack, and not everybody needs to run the full stack.
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But having
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the
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the lightning node running
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in some hosting provider actually
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is a kind of custody.
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And what we wanted to solve is, like, the user will still still run the lightning part,
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behind some shitty connection
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as long as it's connected 247.
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Doesn't have to be fast. It doesn't have to be very reliable.
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And use all the older services which don't include any wireless. Because for if you run the TCP server in the cloud, it doesn't have any private keys. It only have has your XPAD.
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And for Lightning, you still need this this LND or c lightning or whatever running somewhere. So instead of trying some hybrid app approach like,
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that's,
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blockchain project. I forgot the name.
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Just started our voltage,
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who, like, split the keys between the node and your computer.
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We said, okay. Let's just put the LND
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on premises.
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You own your LND. It's in a box in your place. VPNs back
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to
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to our servers running BTC pay server, or it can also VPN back to a big node or running somewhere else. So you can have, like,
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one node of running in some community, and then people are,
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just connecting additional
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LNDs to that node.
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Yeah. That that that that's a big idea behind it. And,
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yeah, of course, there is, like, an opportunity to make something lighter and cheaper. So emerging markets are probably a good place to to try to sell that,
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but it's not, like, the first reason for doing it.
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So, I mean, I kind of
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jumped jumped the gun here. We have the Nautilite,
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to the people who are watching the video streams. And just to remind everyone,
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all of our
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our our fantastic dispatch audience. If you are new to dispatch, the way you can participate in the live chat or
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or watch it live through video
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is through Twitter, Twitch, or YouTube.
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You can access those links at cildispatch.com
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when we're doing the show.
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The videos are posted afterwards to bitcointv.com,
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and they're also still available on YouTube and Twitch. All those links are at silodiscatch.com.
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To our people that are are watching it,
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I'm gonna bring up a little picture of the Nautilito.
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So
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the idea of the Nautilito
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is
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a low cost device.
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Wait. What is it? The idea of the Nautilito is a low cost device that runs lightning locally for a merchant.
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Yeah.
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So yeah. So let let's debunk many things that people asked on on Twitter so far. Like, it's not a satellite device. It's not a mesh device. It's,
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it has only Ethernet and Wi Fi.
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We are working on other things with satellites and mesh networks, but that's that's a story for another day. This one is just a simple,
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LND in a box with a VPN capability to to
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dial back into a centralized BTC pay server.
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So it's not running Bitcoin
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It's not running Bitcoin Core on the device.
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It's not running BTCPay on the device.
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It's only running LND.
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Yeah.
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LND plus the tooling around LND. So RTO,
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those things relay and so on.
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Only small things.
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Originally,
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the idea came
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after,
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the announcement by Jack Mahler that, El Salvador was gonna pass that new law. You know?
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And when we heard about El Salvador, I think so. We
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like, Quito was thinking,
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this is gonna happen super fast. They're gonna have to convert an entire country. Merchants that have gone are gonna have to be onboarded fast, etcetera.
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What could we potentially do,
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not necessarily us, but anyone,
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to kind of prevent them from being onboarded to, like, custodial tools, private tools, etcetera, etcetera.
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So that was the question really. Then when we looked at what we did with Nodl,
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we thought there's no real way for us to service them because
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the devices we build,
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you know, you are are great for what they do,
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but you can't really sell those devices to people there
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because of the price, because of the knowledge needed maybe to operate them, etcetera, etcetera.
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And,
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eventually, Keto came up with the approach of saying,
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you want users,
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end users, to actually have their own keys, control their own keys, the l and d keys, if if they're running a BTCPay store.
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And they need to have a device to do it, but they don't necessarily
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need the processing behind, like, Bitcoin Core actually running BTC Pay Server, etcetera,
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that we could do for them with the infrastructure. And then he came up with a solution,
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which is kinda hybrid and new because I don't think anybody does that kind of stuff today. But, you know, that's part of the reasoning.
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So when you talk about custodial solutions, I mean, you were in El Salvador.
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I saw the video,
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and heard you in the background,
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where they were having issues with Chivo, which is the government's,
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custodial wallet
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that they provide.
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This is supposed to be an alternative for a merchant there instead of using something like that or using a different mobile wallet. Correct?
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could be. But then you could use it in any other country too, you know. But then from a price perspective,
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you could probably
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help people
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there with, like, simpler, lighter devices,
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and that's the first step in that direction.
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So the the main thought here is
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by removing
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Bitcoin d, removing Bitcoin Core, removing
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BTCPay,
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putting those in the
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in your cloud infrastructure, which, by the way, a lot of freaks probably aren't aware,
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you guys, for the last year or so, have been working on building out Nautle Cloud,
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which is a key aspect of this component here. The a key aspect of the Nautilito is that you have this Nautil cloud infrastructure.
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The reasoning for removing that is primarily
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cost and bandwidth.
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Right? Getting the cost down of the Nautilito,
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to a sub a $100 price point. I don't think you guys have actually announced the price point yet. Are you gonna announce it on the show?
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No. We're not. But,
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when the news came out sorry.
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We'll we'll come back to announce it later. When when the news came out, it came out in, in BTC Mag.
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I think they listed under
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$200,
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which wasn't exactly what we had,
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in mind, so it'll be cheaper than that anyways.
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Then it just depends what you package,
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with the hardware because you might have services with it. But that's the main reason. Right? So the main reason is is getting
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cost cost and guess get I guess getting cost down. Right? Because
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by by moving
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Bitcoin Core and BTCPay
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to the cloud, you're able to ship a product,
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that is less powerful without a without an SSD.
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Less powerful,
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cheaper,
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probably leaner if if some of the the management is done somewhere else.
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And doesn't,
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need as many resources from a network perspective like like Kito mentioned earlier.
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So how do you envision
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so I I guess
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so and and there is still some trust here, and it's about minimizing the trust. It's
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about it's about the trust trade off. Right?
351
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Yeah. I I think one thing that was interesting
352
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with the El Salvador example was,
353
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the Bitcoin Beach Wallet, actually,
354
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that the team,
355
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at Galloway
356
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are pushing that concept of, like, community
357
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wallets,
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community custody, etcetera. And so they have some kind of custodial
359
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model
360
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where keys
361
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I don't know how many keys they have in the community, but there's several people who manage the keys,
362
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for the entire village, basically.
363
00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:44.440
And so that's one model. Okay? The the Bitcoin Beach Wallet, specifically, just to go into that, is is the majority of funds are held in multisig
364
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on chain
365
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by trusted members of the community,
366
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and then they have a custodial lightning wallet portion
367
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that is not multisig.
368
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So
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in that situation, they're making that trust trade off that even if that Lightning Wallet gets
370
00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:01.800
hacked or compromised
371
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or exit scammed,
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the overwhelming majority of funds will still be held in multisig. And as long as a quorum of those trusted community members aren't,
373
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malicious and work together,
374
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those funds should be safe. And as a result, you get an easier UX,
375
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and and you don't have to deal with, like, liquidity issues and stuff like that that we see on Lightning.
376
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So so what happens if tomorrow
377
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you have so that's one community that is now famous in the in the entire world because of of of what happened in El Salvador.
378
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There's other
379
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communities, I understand, in other countries that are starting to to build projects
380
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either similar or their own versions of it.
381
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But what if you could have one
382
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full node in a community
383
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and then a bunch of lighter devices
384
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managed by the merchants,
385
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and have an another
386
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model of community setup
387
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where the merchant still manages their their their,
388
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you know, lightning keys.
389
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So, presumably,
390
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here,
391
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you could imagine a situation where
392
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there are 40 Nautolitos
393
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in San Salvador,
394
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and then they're connecting instead of connecting to the Nautle cloud
395
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for those
396
00:27:33.205 --> 00:27:38.790
for that back end, they could be connecting to someone's Nautle Dojo that's in the community that they trust.
397
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For example.
398
00:27:42.550 --> 00:27:43.050
Cool.
399
00:27:43.510 --> 00:27:45.030
That's like a a mega,
400
00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:46.650
Uncle Jim model.
401
00:27:47.275 --> 00:27:49.855
You're, like, professionalizing the Uncle Jim model.
402
00:27:50.235 --> 00:27:55.215
Yeah. And if you do it with an Uncle Dojo with an Arnold Dojo, it's the Uncle Sam model, basically.
403
00:27:55.650 --> 00:27:56.710
An Uncle Dojo.
404
00:27:58.370 --> 00:27:59.590
Why is Uncle Sam?
405
00:28:00.370 --> 00:28:01.510
Because Samurai Wallet.
406
00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:03.429
Oh, okay. Fair enough.
407
00:28:06.025 --> 00:28:09.165
So, okay, so this is interesting. So so when we
408
00:28:09.785 --> 00:28:10.765
when we imagine
409
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when we imagine,
410
00:28:13.490 --> 00:28:16.549
a not Alito in practice, how do you, like, see that
411
00:28:17.010 --> 00:28:20.690
unfolding? Like, I I mean, they're obviously they're still gonna run into
412
00:28:22.135 --> 00:28:24.395
so users are holding their own lightning keys.
413
00:28:25.175 --> 00:28:28.555
That wallet is a hot wallet. That one's always always connected.
414
00:28:29.990 --> 00:28:34.490
They're getting a trusted source of information in terms of of the Bitcoin chain.
415
00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:39.495
What kind of trust do they have to put into that BTCPay
416
00:28:40.034 --> 00:28:40.534
instance?
417
00:28:45.230 --> 00:28:47.370
That that's a good question, actually.
418
00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:56.885
Worst case scenario, we could, like, hijack all the BTC pay accounts and point them at our lightning notes instead.
419
00:29:00.545 --> 00:29:04.610
But they, I mean, they they can see on their side in our tier
420
00:29:05.150 --> 00:29:06.210
or or other tools
421
00:29:06.590 --> 00:29:09.785
that the invoice was actually created and paid to their notes.
422
00:29:10.118 --> 00:29:11.452
So, yeah, I think
423
00:29:12.118 --> 00:29:20.380
like, future funds. You can, like, man in the middle future funds. Yeah. Yeah. Necessarily claw back the funds that have already been paid and accepted.
424
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:27.900
Yeah. And that that's also true for all chain payments. I could, like, just take a shared DTC pay instance and put my expoB everywhere.
425
00:29:31.145 --> 00:29:32.445
And the belief is
426
00:29:32.825 --> 00:29:36.125
that these merchants are gonna be accepting both Onchain and Lightning?
427
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:38.740
Probably
428
00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:40.899
Onchain at least has a fallback.
429
00:29:43.684 --> 00:29:47.945
So but are the on chain key are the on chain keys held on the Nautilito as well?
430
00:29:49.525 --> 00:29:51.220
There aren't any on chain keys,
431
00:29:51.860 --> 00:29:54.360
just the expo on the BTPC server itself.
432
00:29:55.299 --> 00:30:05.365
They they still have a need some type of hardware wallet for the launching part. Oh, like a hardware wallet or, like, mobile wallet or something like that where the funds are being deducted.
433
00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:14.350
Okay. That makes sense to me. Okay. So when so we have these merchants. They have a not a little in their store.
434
00:30:15.515 --> 00:30:20.495
They probably have it connected via Wi Fi, but it also has an Ethernet port. They can connect it via Ethernet.
435
00:30:22.830 --> 00:30:34.174
What are they using to actually invoice the customer? So they they got, like, a are they using a mobile phone? Are they using a tablet? Like, how does that interaction with their customer actually look like? Well, they they
436
00:30:34.575 --> 00:30:39.955
if it's a physical business, they can just use Zap on their phone, for example, to to
437
00:30:40.860 --> 00:30:42.700
to go back to that. Yeah. Also
438
00:30:45.020 --> 00:30:50.415
That's how you envision it? You you expect them to have Zeus on their phone connected to their Nautilito
439
00:30:51.915 --> 00:30:53.455
by scanning a QR code?
440
00:30:54.555 --> 00:30:59.110
Yeah. That is for for physical businesses, that's what makes the most sense.
441
00:30:59.490 --> 00:31:07.190
Do you think this is gonna be primarily used for physical businesses? Like, what do you think the breakdown's gonna be versus online versus physical? I mean, I I imagine
442
00:31:07.505 --> 00:31:11.284
the overwhelming majority of this target market has gotta be physical
443
00:31:12.065 --> 00:31:13.365
physical sales now.
444
00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:23.500
Yeah. In emerging markets, definitely more and more physical. I mean, I I have no idea. We probably don't even have any online
445
00:31:24.115 --> 00:31:25.815
type of business right now,
446
00:31:27.075 --> 00:31:30.615
be because of being unbanked, so not having any way to pay online.
447
00:31:32.150 --> 00:31:35.210
But that's also maybe some market which could just
448
00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:37.850
begin, thanks to Bitcoin.
449
00:31:40.975 --> 00:31:44.275
Like, first solve the payment issue then can start doing ecommerce.
450
00:31:45.695 --> 00:31:46.434
Fair enough.
451
00:31:47.934 --> 00:31:48.434
Cool.
452
00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:54.690
So, Friex, I will remind you if you have any questions, feel free to put them in the live chat, and we will answer them.
453
00:31:57.165 --> 00:31:59.585
When do you guys think the Nautilito is gonna ship?
454
00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:06.070
Tough question.
455
00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:08.470
We hate dates.
456
00:32:10.050 --> 00:32:11.830
First half of next year.
457
00:32:12.365 --> 00:32:13.185
Very conservative.
458
00:32:14.925 --> 00:32:23.490
On on that note, you guys wanna talk at all about, you know, I I'm I've a lot of us have noticed that you had some supply chain issues with the existing Nodal,
459
00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:24.450
fleet.
460
00:32:27.304 --> 00:32:31.085
Do you wanna talk about that experience at all? Like, where do you stand on that right now?
461
00:32:31.625 --> 00:32:38.640
Well, what what I can say right now is that if you want to know the daughter, you should probably go to the store.
462
00:32:40.220 --> 00:32:41.600
Are they available now?
463
00:32:46.085 --> 00:32:50.664
Maybe. No. Yeah. We have we have we have some supply chain issues, which
464
00:32:50.970 --> 00:32:55.710
actually is not like shortage in our case. It's rather like a slow wage.
465
00:32:57.610 --> 00:33:01.385
And, and some prices become unpredictable, which which sucks.
466
00:33:03.525 --> 00:33:05.625
But yeah. And and we have some
467
00:33:06.085 --> 00:33:07.784
some assembly slash
468
00:33:09.190 --> 00:33:11.850
hardware issues which we are trying to solve. So we
469
00:33:12.230 --> 00:33:15.690
we are doing more testing on each device than we used to.
470
00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:22.065
We used to run them for 2 days before shipping them. Now we keep them a whole week.
471
00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:29.320
But yeah. And and What's the reasoning for that?
472
00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:32.680
They usually quality control?
473
00:33:33.115 --> 00:33:38.495
Yeah. It's quality control. They they they usually fail, like, between days 3 5,
474
00:33:39.275 --> 00:33:40.335
if they do. Interesting.
475
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:44.140
And we
476
00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:50.535
kind of have an idea of what's going on, but it's very hard to prove.
477
00:33:51.095 --> 00:33:51.595
And,
478
00:33:52.335 --> 00:33:56.135
and I go to see the supplier and tell them that's the problem. Please fix it.
479
00:33:57.655 --> 00:34:00.870
But, yeah, we are we are actively working on that. And also
480
00:34:01.330 --> 00:34:04.309
buying more components to build more and just,
481
00:34:06.225 --> 00:34:10.165
yeah, just just build more, test more, and ship more.
482
00:34:11.185 --> 00:34:11.825
What are the
483
00:34:12.944 --> 00:34:13.650
like, for
484
00:34:16.130 --> 00:34:18.710
the yeah. Go on. Who aren't necessarily, aware of, like,
485
00:34:19.010 --> 00:34:19.750
you know,
486
00:34:20.770 --> 00:34:22.470
what Nautilus looks like,
487
00:34:23.305 --> 00:34:24.685
The first batch
488
00:34:25.865 --> 00:34:28.105
of nodes we sold were,
489
00:34:28.585 --> 00:34:31.244
were actually pre ordered. So people paid us upfront.
490
00:34:31.810 --> 00:34:33.430
We used the money to buy components.
491
00:34:34.609 --> 00:34:38.930
We built the nodes, and then we shipped them a couple, I don't know, months later maybe or something,
492
00:34:39.330 --> 00:34:40.070
at first.
493
00:34:40.494 --> 00:34:43.234
And then we use the proceeds to buy more
494
00:34:43.775 --> 00:34:46.675
hardware, etcetera, to build more nodes, etcetera. But
495
00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:53.600
this was entirely bootstrapped. It's a really small operation. Sometimes people don't necessarily realize it,
496
00:34:54.755 --> 00:34:57.015
But it's just a very small outfit.
497
00:34:58.275 --> 00:35:01.494
And, it's very manual. It's very artisanal.
498
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.700
And, you know,
499
00:35:04.319 --> 00:35:07.140
some people aren't aware of it. But, you know,
500
00:35:07.520 --> 00:35:15.525
it's just how it is. Yeah. I mean, Kito's literally building them in his living room. Right? Exactly. Yeah. He outsourced this to to his wife, actually.
501
00:35:17.025 --> 00:35:18.325
The dynamic duo.
502
00:35:20.060 --> 00:35:25.760
Mister and mister Kito. Build she's doing all the building, installing, and testing now, so I don't have to.
503
00:35:27.355 --> 00:35:30.555
I had the pleasure of meeting miss Quito and,
504
00:35:32.795 --> 00:35:34.175
she's a great lady.
505
00:35:34.730 --> 00:35:38.350
So you're you're very yeah. I didn't know if I should say that or not, but, yeah, Enrica.
506
00:35:39.930 --> 00:35:44.704
So you're very lucky to to we're both very lucky to have each other. And then this is the
507
00:35:45.184 --> 00:35:50.644
so you have 3 models right now. You have what are you calling this? You're calling this the Nodl 1 by the way, that's nodl.it
508
00:35:51.184 --> 00:35:52.700
is their website, nodl.it.
509
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:55.580
The Nodl 1
510
00:35:56.200 --> 00:35:59.980
is, like, the current entry level device. You have the Nodl Dojo,
511
00:36:01.464 --> 00:36:02.684
which is more expensive,
512
00:36:03.144 --> 00:36:04.285
has better specs,
513
00:36:04.744 --> 00:36:10.700
and then now you have this new one which kinda slots in underneath the 2 of them, which you're calling the Nautilite.
514
00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:16.860
And once again, I I think the biggest differentiation here is I I feel like your
515
00:36:17.345 --> 00:36:19.605
your previous hardware attempts has been
516
00:36:20.224 --> 00:36:21.765
a focus on this
517
00:36:22.065 --> 00:36:22.565
more
518
00:36:22.944 --> 00:36:28.640
enthusiast crowd, this more ride or die coiner crowd. And and this feels like more of a mainstream product,
519
00:36:31.020 --> 00:36:32.880
with a completely different demographic.
520
00:36:33.260 --> 00:36:34.640
So what is the Nautilite?
521
00:36:35.725 --> 00:36:44.305
Oh, fuck. I can't believe I called the Nautilite. There's a lot of people in the space than you used to have. Honestly, when you when you're trying to build a, lightning node,
522
00:36:44.850 --> 00:36:45.830
3 years ago,
523
00:36:47.330 --> 00:36:52.310
if you weren't going for the people who knew about it and who were really, like, early,
524
00:36:52.775 --> 00:36:55.095
you weren't talking to anyone at all. And,
525
00:36:55.655 --> 00:36:58.715
you see a lot of people now who are super bullish on Lightning.
526
00:36:59.494 --> 00:37:02.450
You didn't get the same stuff from them, like, a couple years ago.
527
00:37:03.570 --> 00:37:06.470
So there's been a big change. Honestly, we've noticed that.
528
00:37:07.329 --> 00:37:09.589
And there's a lot more people coming in the space.
529
00:37:10.445 --> 00:37:13.745
It's on TV every day if you watch TV. You know?
530
00:37:15.965 --> 00:37:22.980
Obviously, the demographics are not We we we decided to make Nodal into a commercial product when lightning and the TCP server
531
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.099
went mainstream.
532
00:37:26.145 --> 00:37:26.645
And,
533
00:37:27.185 --> 00:37:30.085
I don't think even Nutrieno existed back then. And
534
00:37:31.185 --> 00:37:32.005
last year,
535
00:37:33.970 --> 00:37:40.070
the compact filters were finally merged into Bitcoin Core, so we see more and more in the server. So,
536
00:37:40.370 --> 00:37:43.350
basically, what we are doing now with this new
537
00:37:43.845 --> 00:37:44.345
nodal
538
00:37:44.724 --> 00:37:51.464
wasn't that possible even a year ago because So the Nautilito is infrastructure. The Nautilito is using Nutrieno?
539
00:37:52.109 --> 00:37:57.490
Yeah. Yeah. So it's using an open standard to connect. Do you wanna explain to the freaks what Neutrino is?
540
00:37:58.895 --> 00:37:59.474
I can
541
00:38:00.015 --> 00:38:00.175
try.
542
00:38:00.974 --> 00:38:01.474
It's
543
00:38:01.935 --> 00:38:04.355
a it's a type of very light
544
00:38:06.150 --> 00:38:08.490
Bitcoin node running inside LND,
545
00:38:09.990 --> 00:38:12.490
which uses compact filters, which is
546
00:38:14.125 --> 00:38:14.785
kind of
547
00:38:15.165 --> 00:38:17.905
the same idea as an SPV wallet, basically.
548
00:38:18.685 --> 00:38:25.020
But it's it's it's a little bit different than SPV wallet trust was. Yeah. So Yeah. That's a big difference.
549
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:27.160
Keto, tell me if I explain it well.
550
00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:29.455
I mean, you're European, so you might not
551
00:38:30.095 --> 00:38:31.555
understand my metaphor.
552
00:38:32.255 --> 00:38:35.395
So instead of sending full blocks to the not Alito,
553
00:38:35.935 --> 00:38:39.075
Nutrino allows you to which are heavy on bandwidth,
554
00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:40.980
but you need a lot of Internet,
555
00:38:41.680 --> 00:38:42.339
for it.
556
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.980
You're sending the SparkNotes, you're basically sending,
557
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:49.220
a summary of the blocks.
558
00:38:49.575 --> 00:38:50.795
And then if the Nautilitos
559
00:38:51.175 --> 00:38:54.714
sees something in those spark notes that they need,
560
00:38:55.575 --> 00:39:01.390
it it'll then pull that specific block and only that block rather than every block as it comes in.
561
00:39:02.810 --> 00:39:05.470
Yeah. I think that's that's pretty accurate. And
562
00:39:06.005 --> 00:39:07.464
it comes with some downsides.
563
00:39:08.404 --> 00:39:11.065
I don't know if there is a fix for that or if,
564
00:39:12.085 --> 00:39:15.370
or if it's, like, at the protocol level and it can be fixed.
565
00:39:15.750 --> 00:39:17.530
But for example, the nodes
566
00:39:17.830 --> 00:39:18.650
don't track
567
00:39:19.110 --> 00:39:26.475
the closing transactions of channels, so we have to wait until the channels channels time out before noticing that they are closed.
568
00:39:27.975 --> 00:39:29.175
So it's not perfect, but,
569
00:39:30.670 --> 00:39:37.730
that's also why we want this product to come standard with a channel and liquidity management service.
570
00:39:38.675 --> 00:39:42.695
Okay. So that was my next question. I mean, liquidity seems to be the major,
571
00:39:43.875 --> 00:39:46.410
hurdle for a Sovereign Lightning merchant,
572
00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:50.589
specifically inbound liquidity, the ability to receive payments on Lightning.
573
00:39:51.450 --> 00:39:52.430
How do you guys
574
00:39:52.985 --> 00:39:55.725
aim to solve that or mitigate it?
575
00:39:56.585 --> 00:39:57.225
Well, as,
576
00:39:57.865 --> 00:39:59.245
as the opening
577
00:39:59.545 --> 00:40:00.045
side,
578
00:40:00.745 --> 00:40:01.965
to our customers,
579
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:06.420
managing inbound liquidity for them is the easier side.
580
00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:10.160
Usually, the problem we have is, like, people start,
581
00:40:11.575 --> 00:40:15.035
running a node. They open a channel. They have only outbound,
582
00:40:15.575 --> 00:40:16.795
and they need inbound.
583
00:40:17.815 --> 00:40:23.760
Since we will be the opening side that is the first channel. Of course, people are free to open all the channels, but
584
00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:25.440
we want to guarantee
585
00:40:25.740 --> 00:40:26.240
the
586
00:40:26.700 --> 00:40:30.795
the users that the channel that we have, we are money with us,
587
00:40:31.195 --> 00:40:33.295
will be monitored. And every time
588
00:40:33.755 --> 00:40:35.135
they will be missing liquidity,
589
00:40:35.435 --> 00:40:36.735
we'll be just adding,
590
00:40:37.275 --> 00:40:40.510
I don't know, a new channel or some kind of rebalance or whatever.
591
00:40:42.490 --> 00:40:49.845
Interesting. So you're basically watching their channels. And then if you notice liquidity drop, you're gonna open a channel from one of your nodes
592
00:40:50.225 --> 00:40:50.805
to them.
593
00:40:51.265 --> 00:40:51.765
Yeah.
594
00:40:52.305 --> 00:41:05.800
And that that that's the that's probably the biggest part of the work because, like, making the device and installing the same stuff as we we are used to install on our other boxes is is the easy side. But the complicated part is,
595
00:41:07.035 --> 00:41:08.815
learning ourselves and understanding
596
00:41:09.995 --> 00:41:12.495
how and when to do that.
597
00:41:15.410 --> 00:41:23.914
For example, like, we'll probably have some very small transactions on some nodes and some average or big on others. How do we handle that?
598
00:41:25.494 --> 00:41:26.954
Do we, like, make some
599
00:41:27.414 --> 00:41:28.714
assumptions in advance,
600
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.820
asking people how we what is your, like, average transaction size?
601
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.714
I don't know. That that's all the all the questions we have to answer.
602
00:41:40.095 --> 00:41:41.795
And I guess you've had some
603
00:41:42.895 --> 00:41:44.194
practice with this,
604
00:41:44.895 --> 00:41:47.220
running the nodes behind Sphinx. Right?
605
00:41:48.740 --> 00:41:54.440
Yeah. Which actually are completely different anyway because they have, like, very symmetric transactions.
606
00:41:55.474 --> 00:41:58.295
Because for every message you send, you receive a confirmation,
607
00:41:58.595 --> 00:42:00.055
which gives you money back.
608
00:42:01.635 --> 00:42:07.820
So if you don't receive, like, any donations or any boost, you basically your balance will basically never move.
609
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:21.735
It's just going back and forth. Yeah. It's just going back and forth with if you're using managed nodes with 0 fees. If you're running some through some public routing nodes, it can be much more than 0 fees on each. So
610
00:42:22.339 --> 00:42:22.839
yeah.
611
00:42:24.579 --> 00:42:29.319
Yeah. And we are running multiple stores as well for ourselves and for other people. So we
612
00:42:29.700 --> 00:42:30.520
we we
613
00:42:31.265 --> 00:42:38.580
we see how it how it works. Like, we we actually sold 1 Dojo with a Lightning transaction the other day. Like,
614
00:42:38.980 --> 00:42:42.360
I've seen the transaction on the store. Wait. A full model Dojo?
615
00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:43.320
Yeah.
616
00:42:44.100 --> 00:42:45.960
I mean, what is that? That's, like, $900?
617
00:42:46.714 --> 00:42:48.095
Yeah. Something like that? $900
618
00:42:48.395 --> 00:42:49.934
in one lightning transaction.
619
00:42:50.395 --> 00:42:52.175
So that's, like, 2,000,000 sets?
620
00:42:54.474 --> 00:42:56.540
It was more back then. It was more.
621
00:42:57.180 --> 00:43:06.685
Don't remember the exact amount, but I I I spent, like, half an hour looking at the on chain wallet trying to find the payment and couldn't find it. And then I said, gosh. Maybe it's lightning.
622
00:43:09.465 --> 00:43:22.619
So where do you so then you have this Nautil cloud product. Like, where do you see the Nautil clouds slotting in? Are they're gonna do you ex do you think there's be some merchants that just skip out on the Nautilito and they just run everything
623
00:43:24.125 --> 00:43:27.505
on your cloud infrastructure rather than actually having a piece of hardware?
624
00:43:29.005 --> 00:43:30.385
I guess it mostly
625
00:43:30.765 --> 00:43:40.079
depends on what's your, like, risk assessment of your local jurisdiction and the jurisdiction we're hosting the the normal clouds in.
626
00:43:41.555 --> 00:43:44.295
My assumption is really that at some point,
627
00:43:45.315 --> 00:43:48.935
if they really want to, they can qualify any type of hosting
628
00:43:49.235 --> 00:43:49.895
as custodian.
629
00:43:53.220 --> 00:43:58.920
So if if the user or the server is in a jurisdiction where that can happen,
630
00:43:59.435 --> 00:44:01.535
I would rather advise to
631
00:44:02.155 --> 00:44:04.015
to self host the lightning part.
632
00:44:05.275 --> 00:44:09.480
Because then it then they have the keys on their own hardware rather than
633
00:44:10.020 --> 00:44:11.320
Yeah. Then it's never
634
00:44:12.020 --> 00:44:14.120
the transaction never touches our servers.
635
00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:16.520
Because right now, if someone uses
636
00:44:16.845 --> 00:44:20.865
just NautleCloud by itself or something like Voltage, which offers
637
00:44:21.645 --> 00:44:22.705
cloud LND,
638
00:44:25.740 --> 00:44:27.600
The keys are in are encrypted,
639
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:33.520
but there's still a element of trust there. Right? There's a large element of trust there that
640
00:44:34.765 --> 00:44:35.825
that you could then
641
00:44:36.684 --> 00:44:38.785
steal funds or compromise funds?
642
00:44:40.444 --> 00:44:40.944
It's
643
00:44:41.369 --> 00:44:41.869
increasingly
644
00:44:42.330 --> 00:44:42.830
hard,
645
00:44:43.369 --> 00:44:43.869
but
646
00:44:44.250 --> 00:44:46.750
I would say with enough willpower,
647
00:44:47.849 --> 00:44:48.670
it's impossible.
648
00:44:50.225 --> 00:44:54.165
But the the not elite though takes that a step further. The keys are held on
649
00:44:54.625 --> 00:44:59.445
hardware that the user controls. So you can't do that step, but you can still do the man in the middle step.
650
00:44:59.950 --> 00:45:00.450
Yep.
651
00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:02.130
Cool.
652
00:45:04.190 --> 00:45:06.130
So if I if I have the Nautilito
653
00:45:06.590 --> 00:45:09.330
in my hand, I open it up, what's inside the Nautilito?
654
00:45:10.655 --> 00:45:11.795
Are you sharing that?
655
00:45:14.015 --> 00:45:19.140
Yeah. We I I've shared it on Twitter before. It's a rock by s, So we are
656
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:19.940
still,
657
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.940
try we are still working with both from the same company, which is Russia
658
00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:28.525
in China. And, the Rock Pi s is basically
659
00:45:29.465 --> 00:45:32.765
what the new Raspberry Pi 0 2 is,
660
00:45:33.990 --> 00:45:36.410
except it exists for 3 or 4 years already.
661
00:45:36.870 --> 00:45:39.210
So it has half of gig of RAM
662
00:45:40.390 --> 00:45:42.490
and 4 64 bit cores.
663
00:45:44.535 --> 00:45:47.435
And then the usual Internet, SD card,
664
00:45:48.135 --> 00:45:48.875
Wi Fi.
665
00:45:51.120 --> 00:45:51.620
And
666
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:58.580
as I understand it, I haven't tried it yet, but the hardware should allow us to make a computer
667
00:45:58.880 --> 00:45:59.780
I'm the
668
00:46:00.285 --> 00:46:00.785
networkless
669
00:46:01.165 --> 00:46:03.025
setup in the in the sense that,
670
00:46:03.965 --> 00:46:14.050
you could connect your computer straight to the device to set up the Wi Fi parameters and such. So you would not even have to connect it to a wired network the first time,
671
00:46:15.230 --> 00:46:16.690
which in some places,
672
00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:19.090
can be good.
673
00:46:19.654 --> 00:46:20.795
So what? You connect
674
00:46:21.095 --> 00:46:24.634
the not elite directly to the computer, what, with an Ethernet cable?
675
00:46:25.414 --> 00:46:27.035
No. No. With a USB cable.
676
00:46:27.414 --> 00:46:32.020
So USB, and it it shows up the same as an Android phone,
677
00:46:33.520 --> 00:46:42.895
using the ADB protocol. So we could make a small app using the ADB protocol, like, to to set up the basic parameters on the device, like passwords, Wi Fi, and so
678
00:46:43.195 --> 00:46:52.390
on. Interesting. And then you just unplug it from your computer, you plug it into the power adapter instead, and, and that's it. You're good to go. And then it connects to Wi Fi. Yeah.
679
00:46:52.849 --> 00:46:54.710
But then what is that solving?
680
00:46:55.905 --> 00:46:56.945
Because couldn't you
681
00:46:57.345 --> 00:47:02.085
That's solving the Yeah. Go on. I need the wired router with one
682
00:47:03.240 --> 00:47:12.700
3 port on it to connect the box, and then I need to find its name on the network. And half of the times, it doesn't work because routers
683
00:47:13.305 --> 00:47:17.085
suck. Right. And this is the first model that actually has Wi Fi built in.
684
00:47:17.705 --> 00:47:18.205
Yeah.
685
00:47:19.465 --> 00:47:28.125
Right. Because the other models, you you connect Ethernet to the router and then We we always refuse to include any radios in our devices, but,
686
00:47:28.685 --> 00:47:29.185
unfortunately,
687
00:47:29.485 --> 00:47:31.745
these boards don't exist without radios.
688
00:47:32.605 --> 00:47:39.360
And it's kind of useful in this and for this demographic. I mean, most people aren't gonna use You could even run it be behind your
689
00:47:40.540 --> 00:47:42.560
mobile phone, hotspot, or whatever.
690
00:47:44.165 --> 00:47:44.665
Right.
691
00:47:45.605 --> 00:47:46.105
So
692
00:47:46.485 --> 00:47:48.105
on that note, is there any
693
00:47:48.805 --> 00:47:54.290
did you give any thought to actually putting, you know, a SIM card slot on it so you didn't need a mobile phone hotspot?
694
00:47:56.350 --> 00:47:59.650
Well, it has a USB port. So, technically, you could,
695
00:48:00.735 --> 00:48:05.555
use a USB modem a GSM modem in it, like 3g, 4g modem.
696
00:48:07.055 --> 00:48:10.115
We have someone in Mexico who'd like to add that to the boards.
697
00:48:11.309 --> 00:48:12.130
As I mentioned,
698
00:48:13.790 --> 00:48:17.170
as long as you have, more than we've supports the
699
00:48:17.470 --> 00:48:22.135
which supports which has Linux drivers, it should work out of the box.
700
00:48:22.675 --> 00:48:24.275
But I guess there's no reason to
701
00:48:24.755 --> 00:48:29.330
I mean, necessarily build it in if if you can either use a mobile hotspot or
702
00:48:30.190 --> 00:48:30.690
a
703
00:48:31.070 --> 00:48:31.970
USB modem
704
00:48:32.350 --> 00:48:36.815
to connect yourself. Be modems are so cheap now. That doesn't make much sense.
705
00:48:38.255 --> 00:48:38.755
Cool.
706
00:48:39.135 --> 00:48:41.075
And and on the other side of the spectrum,
707
00:48:41.375 --> 00:48:47.119
if you add a small additional board inside, it can be powered with power over Ethernet.
708
00:48:48.540 --> 00:48:52.315
So in a totally different setup, if you want to host, like, a farm of
709
00:48:52.795 --> 00:48:53.295
40,
710
00:48:54.875 --> 00:48:55.775
in some place,
711
00:48:56.155 --> 00:49:03.040
you could just buy a power of return network switch and plug them directly into the network switch and don't use any external power
712
00:49:03.500 --> 00:49:04.960
adapter. That's cool.
713
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:09.120
I like that idea.
714
00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:13.435
I don't know how many people are gonna use it. Data center. Oh.
715
00:49:14.215 --> 00:49:14.715
But
716
00:49:15.095 --> 00:49:16.855
but, like, if you wanted to set why
717
00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:18.750
I I mean, I guess,
718
00:49:19.210 --> 00:49:20.030
that's interesting.
719
00:49:20.650 --> 00:49:26.555
Well, how do you how, what kind of use case would that end up? Like, how would you end up seeing a use case like that?
720
00:49:27.275 --> 00:49:33.214
Well, you know, I I always mentioned, like, instead of hosting virtual machines on server, just having, like,
721
00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:40.850
a data center ready version of the nodal boxes that we could just put in some big chassis and,
722
00:49:41.250 --> 00:49:44.865
have, like, 50 of them running in the space of 1 server.
723
00:49:46.285 --> 00:49:49.185
So I'm bringing this kind of application, like, still hosted,
724
00:49:49.885 --> 00:49:51.530
but dedicated hardware for each
725
00:49:54.090 --> 00:49:55.630
each user. Yeah. Do you remember
726
00:49:56.890 --> 00:49:58.910
do you remember when that company had,
727
00:50:00.795 --> 00:50:04.415
they were US based. They had the over the air, TV antennas
728
00:50:05.115 --> 00:50:05.615
Uh-huh.
729
00:50:05.994 --> 00:50:08.585
Where they, like, they hosted a badly.
730
00:50:09.510 --> 00:50:11.930
Yeah. But they, like, got around, like, the regulations
731
00:50:12.230 --> 00:50:13.130
about streaming,
732
00:50:13.990 --> 00:50:14.970
network TV
733
00:50:15.670 --> 00:50:18.089
because each person had their own
734
00:50:18.765 --> 00:50:19.505
over the air
735
00:50:19.885 --> 00:50:29.089
TV antenna located in some server farm. Yeah. The assumption was that if they use one TV antenna and tuner for each user, it's just it's,
736
00:50:30.030 --> 00:50:32.530
the same as having the receiver at home.
737
00:50:32.990 --> 00:50:36.665
And then they got the shit suit out of them. Yeah. That didn't fly.
738
00:50:37.765 --> 00:50:42.265
They were, like, the hottest tech company for, like, 3 months, and then everything went to shit.
739
00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:49.800
So there's a bunch of freaks out here that are wondering. I'm I mean, I imagine that this is where my head would go.
740
00:50:50.260 --> 00:50:55.464
So, I mean, the the the product very much to me seems like it's geared towards,
741
00:50:56.085 --> 00:50:58.585
an end user that's trying to receive payments.
742
00:50:59.930 --> 00:51:02.110
Do you think the hardware is, like, powerful enough
743
00:51:02.410 --> 00:51:08.030
or even well suited for someone who wants to run, like, a always on routing node?
744
00:51:11.005 --> 00:51:12.145
Definitely not.
745
00:51:13.565 --> 00:51:15.665
And why is that? It's just not you can't?
746
00:51:16.530 --> 00:51:17.010
It's,
747
00:51:17.730 --> 00:51:20.550
it's a device suited to generate,
748
00:51:22.370 --> 00:51:24.870
a few invoices per minute, probably.
749
00:51:26.825 --> 00:51:33.085
So, I mean, yes, you could use it as a routing node, but you will not route, like, some
750
00:51:33.465 --> 00:51:35.510
big quantity of transaction on it.
751
00:51:37.350 --> 00:51:38.970
And what's the bottleneck there?
752
00:51:39.510 --> 00:51:40.570
Processing power?
753
00:51:42.984 --> 00:51:46.205
Processing power is not is the size of the RAM,
754
00:51:46.825 --> 00:51:48.445
on the device because,
755
00:51:49.705 --> 00:51:51.885
basically, to run, it has to swap.
756
00:51:54.549 --> 00:51:55.049
And,
757
00:51:55.990 --> 00:51:56.809
if if
758
00:51:57.589 --> 00:51:59.615
I mean, you you can afford when you're,
759
00:52:00.415 --> 00:52:05.555
a merchant in your physical store and it takes 2 seconds to generate an invoice. That's okay.
760
00:52:06.494 --> 00:52:12.800
But when you're routing, that's a different story. It will penalize your node. Like, you will not get a good score and so on. So, yeah, I
761
00:52:13.819 --> 00:52:15.680
I I would not advise,
762
00:52:16.780 --> 00:52:17.599
doing that,
763
00:52:17.980 --> 00:52:18.480
probably.
764
00:52:19.265 --> 00:52:19.925
I mean,
765
00:52:20.385 --> 00:52:21.685
someone has to test.
766
00:52:22.465 --> 00:52:25.605
This is what I love about you, Keith. I would not advise of doing that, probably.
767
00:52:27.585 --> 00:52:27.825
The
768
00:52:34.910 --> 00:52:35.410
channels
769
00:52:36.190 --> 00:52:36.930
open with people that I mean, we we hear, like, trust issues there if you have
770
00:52:37.595 --> 00:52:42.815
channels open with people that I mean, we we hear Lightning devs say this all the time,
771
00:52:43.515 --> 00:52:45.535
just with any old Lightning nodes,
772
00:52:46.730 --> 00:52:48.190
full Lightning Nodes,
773
00:52:49.290 --> 00:52:51.870
with Bitcoin Core backing them locally,
774
00:52:52.250 --> 00:52:55.950
that you should not have channels open with people you don't trust explicitly,
775
00:52:58.555 --> 00:53:00.175
even though we all do anyway.
776
00:53:02.635 --> 00:53:03.535
In that case,
777
00:53:04.610 --> 00:53:13.830
our nodes are able to see if they're online or if they're using a watch tower and they're offline. They're able to see if there is malicious behavior from a channel partner.
778
00:53:14.855 --> 00:53:26.810
The fact that with Neutrino, you mentioned this thing where you're not seeing the closed transaction until after the channel times out, Is there an additional trust issue there with having channels open with people that,
779
00:53:28.810 --> 00:53:29.630
could be malicious?
780
00:53:33.265 --> 00:53:34.645
I'm not sure. I'd
781
00:53:35.025 --> 00:53:37.845
I would say no, but I'm not 100%
782
00:53:38.305 --> 00:53:39.445
sure. I'm
783
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:41.280
too stupid to ask.
784
00:53:42.460 --> 00:53:43.760
But, like, if I
785
00:53:45.820 --> 00:53:55.234
I mean, so you're saying it's not seeing the closed channel transaction. Would it would it would it see me broadcast a bad state if I was connected with the if I had a channel open with the Nautilita?
786
00:53:55.855 --> 00:53:57.234
It would see that part.
787
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:01.140
That's actually a very good question which we should ask,
788
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:02.820
like, in labs.
789
00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:09.235
Well, this is why it's this is why I love dispatch. Okay. Well, definitely ask that question. That seems important.
790
00:54:10.095 --> 00:54:11.475
But I guess, in this case,
791
00:54:11.775 --> 00:54:13.875
most merchants that are using Nautilito
792
00:54:14.175 --> 00:54:14.915
will be
793
00:54:15.839 --> 00:54:18.900
their channel capacity will be coming from your notes.
794
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.835
Well, if if they want to use our channel management service, yes,
795
00:54:24.395 --> 00:54:32.015
which is kind of the point of the thing. And, also, I just made a note at the same time, I include watch towers in the service package.
796
00:54:32.569 --> 00:54:33.150
You're welcome.
797
00:54:35.210 --> 00:54:35.849
So the
798
00:54:36.809 --> 00:54:38.109
and, I mean, I guess
799
00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:40.829
I I still think this concept of
800
00:54:42.244 --> 00:54:44.424
of of, like, one person in the community
801
00:54:44.885 --> 00:54:45.385
running
802
00:54:46.164 --> 00:54:46.664
a
803
00:54:48.484 --> 00:54:49.845
a proper node, a a
804
00:54:50.670 --> 00:54:58.130
I guess we need, like, new terminology, but, like, a a a completely full node and then them acting as a backing infrastructure.
805
00:54:58.895 --> 00:55:00.675
Then in that case, they'd be trusting
806
00:55:01.295 --> 00:55:02.675
that person who's running,
807
00:55:04.095 --> 00:55:10.020
like, a Nautil a Nautil Dojo or a Raspberry Blitz or something. Can also be providing the Nutrino,
808
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.460
like, so let's call it server to all these nodes?
809
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.580
Because it's completely open. So, like, someone can get a Nautilito,
810
00:55:17.184 --> 00:55:18.885
and then instead of using NautilCloud,
811
00:55:20.464 --> 00:55:23.444
their uncle Jim could be using, like, a Raspberry Blitz or something.
812
00:55:24.065 --> 00:55:24.885
Yeah. Totally.
813
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:28.900
That's pretty cool. At some point, you need to call it,
814
00:55:30.500 --> 00:55:33.240
like it is. It's actually you need someone to run infrastructure
815
00:55:33.620 --> 00:55:34.280
for you
816
00:55:34.715 --> 00:55:36.175
because you want high availability.
817
00:55:36.635 --> 00:55:37.375
You want
818
00:55:37.835 --> 00:55:40.815
to be able to have some kind of trust in the setup, etcetera.
819
00:55:41.755 --> 00:55:43.135
You also need someone
820
00:55:43.560 --> 00:55:44.540
to provide liquidity.
821
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:51.420
It might be the same person, but it might be someone else behind it that you don't see because it's abstracted from the user's perspective.
822
00:55:53.194 --> 00:55:57.694
But these are the type of services that you see today in the fiat world.
823
00:55:57.994 --> 00:56:00.015
They're just not done in Bitcoin yet.
824
00:56:00.380 --> 00:56:04.880
This is maybe one step further in figuring out the right model of
825
00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:06.799
who runs really infrastructure,
826
00:56:07.180 --> 00:56:09.119
who runs services, who provides
827
00:56:10.615 --> 00:56:13.755
liquidity, who provides other components of,
828
00:56:14.375 --> 00:56:17.035
you know, the the end user experiments, basically.
829
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:18.940
Right.
830
00:56:20.680 --> 00:56:21.180
So
831
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:29.305
in your case yeah. Go on. Yeah. No. Sorry. And that's what, like, you can do sometimes with with the cloud services
832
00:56:29.605 --> 00:56:30.805
that maybe is not,
833
00:56:32.645 --> 00:56:35.625
as easily understandable for people is, like,
834
00:56:35.950 --> 00:56:36.770
if you have
835
00:56:37.150 --> 00:56:37.650
customers,
836
00:56:38.830 --> 00:56:40.210
merchants, that say, okay.
837
00:56:40.590 --> 00:56:44.690
I don't know how to do it. I don't necessarily wanna do it. It's not my main business.
838
00:56:44.990 --> 00:56:48.275
So I just wanna make sure it's running 247.
839
00:56:49.454 --> 00:56:52.194
I don't think there's a single player today
840
00:56:53.380 --> 00:56:55.160
that does it with a guaranteed,
841
00:56:55.700 --> 00:56:56.920
you know, uptime,
842
00:56:58.340 --> 00:57:00.600
channel management, liquidity, etcetera.
843
00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:05.085
But within a year or so, you'll have those people doing it for you.
844
00:57:07.545 --> 00:57:10.045
So so people need to find a way to do it
845
00:57:10.579 --> 00:57:19.880
because that's what's expected from the user perspective. And and now you have new users who who don't wanna go into the details as much as we do maybe,
846
00:57:20.795 --> 00:57:23.375
that that will want some kind of professional setup.
847
00:57:24.315 --> 00:57:28.255
So, I mean, reading between the lines, that's the goal of Nautle Cloud.
848
00:57:28.809 --> 00:57:29.309
Obviously,
849
00:57:29.609 --> 00:57:31.789
that kind of uptime, that kind of infrastructure,
850
00:57:32.809 --> 00:57:34.190
that kind of channel management
851
00:57:35.289 --> 00:57:37.869
is not free. How do you perceive
852
00:57:38.635 --> 00:57:45.055
that model going forward? Is that, like, going to be a subscription model? Is that a yearly subscription model? Like, how does that look?
853
00:57:46.190 --> 00:57:53.970
Kinda like the mobile phone market. You will be free to buy the device and pay for the service or get the device
854
00:57:54.505 --> 00:57:55.005
subsidized
855
00:57:55.385 --> 00:58:00.925
by paying more for the service and not paying the device. That that's the baseline we we have now.
856
00:58:03.079 --> 00:58:05.339
So, presumably, someone can get a Nautilito
857
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:07.260
with no money upfront,
858
00:58:07.560 --> 00:58:09.240
no money down, and then they're
859
00:58:10.454 --> 00:58:14.155
it's subsidized by a subscription offering. Sure. Yeah.
860
00:58:15.734 --> 00:58:19.515
And you're not gonna tell us the prices of that at all right now?
861
00:58:20.410 --> 00:58:24.190
To be honest, we have no idea. So we can't tell you.
862
00:58:26.650 --> 00:58:30.055
Awesome. We we we also, like, at the
863
00:58:30.355 --> 00:58:36.775
at the step of arguing if we should go with the most expensive SD card or the second most expensive one.
864
00:58:37.720 --> 00:58:38.940
Because also the
865
00:58:39.240 --> 00:58:40.859
even the SD card we
866
00:58:41.160 --> 00:58:45.079
are trying to include in this device didn't exist 6 months ago. So
867
00:58:47.035 --> 00:58:49.215
And the SD card is holding
868
00:58:50.075 --> 00:58:51.375
the keys to lightning
869
00:58:51.755 --> 00:58:54.975
your lightning keys. What else is that SD card used for?
870
00:58:56.830 --> 00:59:03.470
So how operating system and LND. So it it it writes Everything's on there? Yeah. It writes a lot.
871
00:59:04.345 --> 00:59:07.404
You will still have the option of using the USB port for
872
00:59:08.025 --> 00:59:10.045
a static channel backup drive,
873
00:59:10.424 --> 00:59:11.805
like a cheap thumbstick.
874
00:59:13.790 --> 00:59:14.930
But, yeah, we
875
00:59:16.190 --> 00:59:21.090
I I don't want to build a device that will stop working after 6 months or 1 year.
876
00:59:21.705 --> 00:59:25.725
So the minimum we expect from the SD card is is 3 years.
877
00:59:27.465 --> 00:59:31.900
And the ones we are testing now come with a 5 year guarantee,
878
00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:34.540
and, like, a massive,
879
00:59:36.040 --> 00:59:37.339
endurance numbers.
880
00:59:38.005 --> 00:59:44.665
Because the the concern there is, you know, SD cards have a higher failure rate. Right? Especially if you're writing a lot.
881
00:59:45.510 --> 00:59:47.609
Well, any any flash memory
882
00:59:47.990 --> 00:59:48.490
ages
883
00:59:48.790 --> 00:59:50.089
when you write on it.
884
00:59:51.190 --> 00:59:56.865
SD cards by the size I mean, micro SD cards by the size include obviously less
885
00:59:57.165 --> 01:00:00.225
extra memory than a big SSD drive.
886
01:00:02.680 --> 01:00:09.820
So cards with enough extra memory to cover for the failed cells inside the memory are
887
01:00:10.435 --> 01:00:11.495
way more expensive.
888
01:00:12.995 --> 01:00:13.495
And,
889
01:00:14.195 --> 01:00:15.895
yeah, that that that that's
890
01:00:16.195 --> 01:00:20.510
one one thing we, like, waited to see on the market. And,
891
01:00:21.130 --> 01:00:21.790
I mean,
892
01:00:22.569 --> 01:00:23.470
not a secret,
893
01:00:24.250 --> 01:00:27.869
because it will be part of our main specifications for this device.
894
01:00:28.635 --> 01:00:29.135
SanDisk
895
01:00:29.515 --> 01:00:31.135
came up with this new
896
01:00:31.595 --> 01:00:36.415
cards called, high endurance and max endurance, which are used for video surveillance,
897
01:00:37.680 --> 01:00:39.059
meaning constant writing.
898
01:00:40.319 --> 01:00:42.579
And this is what we are planning to use.
899
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:48.075
Awesome. So, I mean, the concern here is if that SD card fails or
900
01:00:48.455 --> 01:00:52.555
or if you're using a lightning node with an SSD and if that SSD fails,
901
01:00:55.730 --> 01:01:01.910
all all your your your channel state, all of that is is lost, and you will lose your funds
902
01:01:02.645 --> 01:01:05.385
if you don't have a static channel backup.
903
01:01:05.845 --> 01:01:09.465
Now the static channel backup, though, if you restore from that backup,
904
01:01:10.245 --> 01:01:11.545
you lose your channels.
905
01:01:12.630 --> 01:01:16.730
Yeah. It still sucks. I mean, to be The funds are restored on chain.
906
01:01:17.510 --> 01:01:32.200
Right? You get your funds on chain, but you get hit with the on chain fees to do that. And then you have to hit And it's a very long process. So with the Nautil Dojo, one strategy around that is that you have 2 SSDs in there
907
01:01:32.500 --> 01:01:35.880
that are operating in a, basically, like, a quasi RAID
908
01:01:36.805 --> 01:01:44.105
situation where one is backing up the other. So if something happens to one of the if one of the SSDs fails or gets corrupted, the other one,
909
01:01:44.750 --> 01:01:47.490
is there ready to go without a static channel backup.
910
01:01:48.030 --> 01:01:49.890
It is an actual red one,
911
01:01:50.430 --> 01:01:51.790
mirroring red. So the
912
01:01:52.565 --> 01:01:55.865
anything written to the SSD won't be acknowledged
913
01:01:56.245 --> 01:01:59.145
by the system if it's not written to both drives.
914
01:01:59.765 --> 01:02:00.265
So
915
01:02:01.125 --> 01:02:03.289
okay. So in that situation,
916
01:02:04.069 --> 01:02:09.130
if I buy a Nautil Dojo and I have 2 SSDs in there because that's how Nautil Dojo comes,
917
01:02:10.085 --> 01:02:21.329
aren't they both getting hit with the same amount of rights at the same time? Wouldn't there be a situation where they both fail around the same time? Or is it just they They do. They do. So the the idea
918
01:02:21.710 --> 01:02:22.210
is,
919
01:02:23.390 --> 01:02:23.890
it's
920
01:02:24.430 --> 01:02:28.845
not very urgent because we we are, like, monitoring the
921
01:02:29.145 --> 01:02:32.765
the wear of SSDs on our test devices, which are much
922
01:02:33.065 --> 01:02:34.125
faster than
923
01:02:34.585 --> 01:02:36.030
usual users ones.
924
01:02:38.430 --> 01:02:41.570
But at some point, you will see in the UI,
925
01:02:42.910 --> 01:02:44.050
remaining lifetime
926
01:02:45.875 --> 01:02:46.454
estimation in percent
927
01:02:48.275 --> 01:02:54.980
for your SSDs. And what what you will do is, like, when you reach, I don't know, 30 percent or 20%,
928
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:58.980
you will replace 1, rebuild the data,
929
01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:02.420
on the first one, and then replace the second one.
930
01:03:03.435 --> 01:03:04.895
So it's like a gray smoke.
931
01:03:05.435 --> 01:03:11.750
Yeah. It also it it also works for increasing the size. Actually, you can just plug a bigger one,
932
01:03:12.210 --> 01:03:14.390
restore the red on the bigger one,
933
01:03:14.770 --> 01:03:22.585
then replace the second one with a bigger one and, expand the the partitions on that. So it's, like, more for, like, a graceful migration?
934
01:03:23.285 --> 01:03:23.785
Yeah.
935
01:03:24.645 --> 01:03:25.145
So
936
01:03:25.445 --> 01:03:26.985
couldn't you, with, like, the Nautilito,
937
01:03:27.285 --> 01:03:35.170
either add, like, a second SD card slot or, like, a USB drive that you plug in? Like, if if if the SD card's 64 gigs,
938
01:03:35.950 --> 01:03:41.825
couldn't I, like, plug in a 64 gig thumb drive and have the similar result there?
939
01:03:45.650 --> 01:03:46.150
Well,
940
01:03:46.450 --> 01:03:53.109
that that's actually something we looked into at some point for having, like, a red for only the LND directory
941
01:03:53.410 --> 01:03:54.549
of any node
942
01:03:55.194 --> 01:03:58.494
between the internal SSD and an external thumb drive.
943
01:03:58.875 --> 01:04:02.895
But we figured that, actually, thumb drives are made for,
944
01:04:03.289 --> 01:04:04.109
like, very,
945
01:04:05.130 --> 01:04:06.349
infrequent use,
946
01:04:07.369 --> 01:04:10.269
and they die much faster than any SD or SSD.
947
01:04:12.095 --> 01:04:12.595
So
948
01:04:12.895 --> 01:04:14.275
you could, but
949
01:04:15.135 --> 01:04:18.095
you wouldn't want to do that. And in addition, it's,
950
01:04:21.150 --> 01:04:22.609
I wouldn't say maybe 100%,
951
01:04:22.910 --> 01:04:23.650
but 99%
952
01:04:24.190 --> 01:04:26.369
of thumb drives don't report any,
953
01:04:27.470 --> 01:04:29.410
statistics about their internal state.
954
01:04:30.474 --> 01:04:32.394
So it would be very hard to detect the fail
955
01:04:32.954 --> 01:04:34.174
an upcoming failure.
956
01:04:34.635 --> 01:04:36.894
But what about, like, if you had a,
957
01:04:37.540 --> 01:04:39.880
like, USB SD card reader
958
01:04:40.339 --> 01:04:40.839
attached
959
01:04:41.619 --> 01:04:47.585
and then you have an SD attached to that? The same type of SD card. Yeah. That that probably be okay.
960
01:04:48.925 --> 01:05:02.660
Like, is that not a is that not a good idea? Like, is did I not just think of something there, like, to have 2, like, redundant SD cards just like the the the has That that external port is on USB 2, so it would be very slow.
961
01:05:03.745 --> 01:05:06.565
Yeah. We we we can think about something like that.
962
01:05:08.145 --> 01:05:10.565
That that's probably something we could test.
963
01:05:10.940 --> 01:05:13.600
But if you if you I guess if you had, like, a similar
964
01:05:16.220 --> 01:05:23.845
chip that came with 2 SD card slots, then that would be way more practical than using that USB port. That's the issue. Yeah.
965
01:05:24.625 --> 01:05:25.125
Yeah.
966
01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:27.019
By the way, one
967
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:33.099
very little known thing, although I probably mentioned it twice or 3 times already on different,
968
01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:33.980
shops.
969
01:05:34.925 --> 01:05:36.625
If you have another one,
970
01:05:37.485 --> 01:05:37.985
with
971
01:05:38.685 --> 01:05:39.345
this encryption,
972
01:05:39.725 --> 01:05:40.225
which
973
01:05:40.765 --> 01:05:41.590
was, like,
974
01:05:42.070 --> 01:05:45.130
starting probably a year ago now or maybe a little longer.
975
01:05:45.670 --> 01:05:49.590
It actually supports red mirroring. You can add an external drive and,
976
01:05:50.275 --> 01:05:52.775
with a few comments, enable the mirroring.
977
01:05:56.915 --> 01:05:59.095
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't realize that.
978
01:05:59.490 --> 01:06:01.750
It it it it actually has
979
01:06:02.369 --> 01:06:07.590
a red mirroring of only one drive configured. So if you add the second drive, it will just,
980
01:06:08.345 --> 01:06:10.525
stupidly replicate on the external drive.
981
01:06:10.905 --> 01:06:13.645
All you have to do is plug it in? You don't have to do anything else?
982
01:06:14.025 --> 01:06:16.365
You you have to run a few comments.
983
01:06:16.859 --> 01:06:17.599
Oh, okay.
984
01:06:20.380 --> 01:06:20.880
Cool.
985
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:27.835
I have another question. So there's a lot of comments here. I mean, it's the the obvious thing when you see
986
01:06:28.215 --> 01:06:32.475
when you see this not a lead to, like, the first thing everyone thinks about is mesh.
987
01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:35.200
You know, you see this little device.
988
01:06:35.660 --> 01:06:37.680
I'm imagining it in, like, a flea market.
989
01:06:37.980 --> 01:06:38.960
They're all, like,
990
01:06:39.955 --> 01:06:46.295
daisy chained off of each other, and then they they hit the, you know, whatever the main server is, whether that's a,
991
01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:54.040
a, you know, a Nautil Dojo held locally or if that's a Nautil cloud or something. Like, what are your thoughts on mesh? Like, is that
992
01:06:55.125 --> 01:06:59.785
something that's, you know, in the pipeline in the future? Would you need different hardware to do it?
993
01:07:01.900 --> 01:07:06.320
It's been a long time we are talking about adding, like, LoRa 1,
994
01:07:07.100 --> 01:07:08.880
mesh or even the Gothena,
995
01:07:09.500 --> 01:07:10.800
supports to the model.
996
01:07:13.184 --> 01:07:13.684
What
997
01:07:14.464 --> 01:07:22.760
most people probably don't realize is that with any kind of ISM band mesh radio, you get very little air time. You get, like, 10 seconds
998
01:07:23.060 --> 01:07:27.320
per hour maybe of air time. So that's very, very small data.
999
01:07:30.340 --> 01:07:30.840
It's
1000
01:07:31.415 --> 01:07:33.355
basically enough to send a few messages
1001
01:07:33.655 --> 01:07:38.315
or send some transactions, but you would not, like, stream blocks over that.
1002
01:07:39.660 --> 01:07:41.760
So you need at least one other
1003
01:07:42.140 --> 01:07:45.359
type of radio, and for that, Blockstream satellite is perfect
1004
01:07:46.855 --> 01:07:49.835
to to receive the blocks. That that's like a minimum.
1005
01:07:52.135 --> 01:07:54.635
Mesh alone won't solve any problem unless
1006
01:07:54.940 --> 01:07:58.720
you are just remote controlling a node which is hosted elsewhere.
1007
01:08:01.420 --> 01:08:01.920
Right.
1008
01:08:02.380 --> 01:08:03.520
Yeah. I mean, I guess
1009
01:08:04.235 --> 01:08:08.575
if you're in, like, that flea market situation anyway, all you need is
1010
01:08:10.235 --> 01:08:16.240
something that's broadcasting Wi Fi in the area, and then all those not all those can connect to it anyway.
1011
01:08:16.540 --> 01:08:24.695
And that could be something that's mesh enabled or not. It doesn't really matter. You could imagine hooking up, like, the the central model dojo with some
1012
01:08:26.114 --> 01:08:26.614
good,
1013
01:08:27.075 --> 01:08:44.505
Wi Fi card and use it as a as a router for everything else. And then that Nautilus Dojo could connect to, like, a local mesh or a block stream satellite or something like that. And then all of the Nautolitos that are in range of it get benefit of that anyway without having to incorporate it directly into the Nautolito. Right? Yeah. Exactly.
1014
01:08:45.845 --> 01:08:46.505
Got it.
1015
01:08:47.940 --> 01:08:52.520
So, I mean, we talked about earlier in the show, I mean, before we started recording,
1016
01:08:54.260 --> 01:08:56.039
that we're gonna try and keep this,
1017
01:08:57.095 --> 01:09:02.075
on the tighter side. I mean, I have my lady in the other room. I can hear her, like, unpacking boxes,
1018
01:09:03.015 --> 01:09:10.679
probably a little bit angry at me that I am not unpacking boxes as well. My computer is literally sitting on boxes right now, and I'm using a secondary mic,
1019
01:09:11.219 --> 01:09:14.280
to do this show. I got my dog passed out next to me
1020
01:09:14.665 --> 01:09:16.364
on an air bed.
1021
01:09:17.225 --> 01:09:24.350
Do you think we've missed anything, guys, that you wanna cover here in terms of the future of the Nodle and the Nodle Ditto? I
1022
01:09:25.450 --> 01:09:26.190
like what
1023
01:09:26.490 --> 01:09:36.115
John said in the chart. It's, like the the parent child model. I think that's a very good, picture of it. Like, the parent being the full node and the and
1024
01:09:36.655 --> 01:09:39.475
the node details being child children on that node.
1025
01:09:41.440 --> 01:09:48.100
I'm being told I sound slightly like a potato. I apologize, freaks. I do not know which box my good mic is in.
1026
01:09:49.094 --> 01:09:53.514
But I promise you next week, for both dispatch and rabbit hole,
1027
01:09:54.855 --> 01:09:59.750
I will have better audio quality. And my Internet here, though, is absolutely fantastic.
1028
01:10:01.250 --> 01:10:03.909
Some of the best Internet in the United States. So,
1029
01:10:05.145 --> 01:10:06.605
I'm doing that for you guys.
1030
01:10:07.145 --> 01:10:08.045
We got this.
1031
01:10:09.945 --> 01:10:12.284
Ask who you got? Final thoughts over there?
1032
01:10:14.040 --> 01:10:16.040
You know, like you were saying,
1033
01:10:16.440 --> 01:10:17.420
earlier that,
1034
01:10:18.679 --> 01:10:22.635
eventually, you'll have a lot of providers of of these type of solutions,
1035
01:10:23.335 --> 01:10:30.315
which is what you wanna see this what we wanna see. You wanna see a lot of hardware providers, a lot of cloud providers,
1036
01:10:30.615 --> 01:10:31.175
a lot of,
1037
01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:33.300
liquidity providers, etcetera.
1038
01:10:34.320 --> 01:10:37.460
And the trust models for everybody is gonna are gonna be different.
1039
01:10:38.400 --> 01:10:40.179
They have to be clear for the users.
1040
01:10:40.815 --> 01:10:43.395
That I think is really important to us
1041
01:10:44.255 --> 01:10:46.594
that people understand what they're getting into.
1042
01:10:47.135 --> 01:10:47.955
But, eventually,
1043
01:10:48.415 --> 01:10:56.389
if you choose services like that where you do rely on third parties to a certain extent, you have to understand where the risk is.
1044
01:10:56.985 --> 01:10:57.725
And also,
1045
01:10:58.345 --> 01:11:03.085
you know, the different providers that do, like, cloud infrastructure or or things like that that
1046
01:11:03.705 --> 01:11:06.685
sometimes you feel you'd like, you'd wanna move away from.
1047
01:11:08.010 --> 01:11:13.470
We believe there's a big difference between, like, running stuff with, like, corporate companies like, AWS
1048
01:11:14.570 --> 01:11:15.870
and these type of providers
1049
01:11:16.965 --> 01:11:18.025
versus owning
1050
01:11:19.125 --> 01:11:20.425
the hardware yourself.
1051
01:11:21.205 --> 01:11:23.785
And I don't think we necessarily make it clear,
1052
01:11:25.360 --> 01:11:28.580
but everything that we build in the cloud is on
1053
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:31.060
hardware that we own.
1054
01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:33.220
So we build stuff ourselves,
1055
01:11:33.885 --> 01:11:39.665
and, and we think that's something that could be acceptable for a lot of, a lot of customers.
1056
01:11:41.090 --> 01:11:43.750
I feel that. Do you think you guys think, like, in
1057
01:11:44.450 --> 01:11:45.190
5 years,
1058
01:11:46.290 --> 01:11:49.590
the majority of Bitcoin users will be using,
1059
01:11:52.025 --> 01:11:54.365
either custodial providers or,
1060
01:11:55.945 --> 01:11:56.605
you know,
1061
01:11:56.905 --> 01:12:00.090
nodes hosted on, like, an AWS or, like, a corporate cloud?
1062
01:12:01.030 --> 01:12:05.930
Like, is that a foregone conclusion, or are we gonna actually have a large amount of users,
1063
01:12:07.005 --> 01:12:14.945
trying to use it in a more sovereign way? I definitely see a future where everybody has several nodes. They don't use them for the same things.
1064
01:12:15.830 --> 01:12:18.570
Some are more private than others. Some are more accessible.
1065
01:12:19.990 --> 01:12:22.810
Some are probably hosted. Some are probably self hosted.
1066
01:12:24.105 --> 01:12:27.885
That's probably the mix that makes the most sense, at least for me.
1067
01:12:28.425 --> 01:12:28.925
And,
1068
01:12:30.580 --> 01:12:39.639
you know, availability is something that you don't necessarily want to manage all the time. At the same time, you don't want to give custody to to anyone else with Bitcoin.
1069
01:12:40.405 --> 01:12:42.665
So there's different trade offs that
1070
01:12:43.365 --> 01:12:44.745
probably, in my mind,
1071
01:12:45.045 --> 01:12:50.310
will require you to have several different setups and use all of them for different purposes.
1072
01:12:51.570 --> 01:12:57.270
I laughed internally very loud when the guy in the video mentioned partnering with AWS in the beginning.
1073
01:12:58.195 --> 01:13:01.095
You mean the CEO of Goldman Sachs? Yeah.
1074
01:13:01.875 --> 01:13:02.695
Yeah. They
1075
01:13:05.140 --> 01:13:07.480
they don't really get what we're doing over here,
1076
01:13:07.780 --> 01:13:08.520
do they?
1077
01:13:09.540 --> 01:13:14.715
And then there's something a little more far fetched maybe that we didn't talk about that I'm really
1078
01:13:15.255 --> 01:13:16.715
I'd like to see eventually,
1079
01:13:17.415 --> 01:13:18.795
Hit us. Us doing
1080
01:13:19.280 --> 01:13:19.780
is
1081
01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:24.500
when you do host services for people, if they're hosted
1082
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:27.300
and replicated in a lot of different places,
1083
01:13:28.175 --> 01:13:31.155
there is some kind of potential for you to offer,
1084
01:13:32.735 --> 01:13:34.755
jurisdictional arbitrage as a service.
1085
01:13:35.280 --> 01:13:35.780
And,
1086
01:13:36.400 --> 01:13:41.140
with the way the world is going, I think that is a very strong value proposition.
1087
01:13:42.240 --> 01:13:44.180
So, eventually, I'd like to see that happen.
1088
01:13:47.195 --> 01:13:48.735
What do you mean by that? Just
1089
01:13:49.115 --> 01:13:52.655
different providers in different parts of the world so that even if there's
1090
01:13:53.115 --> 01:13:54.655
bad laws in one area?
1091
01:13:55.179 --> 01:13:57.440
Yeah. That your data is never there because,
1092
01:13:58.139 --> 01:13:59.520
poof, it's not there anymore.
1093
01:14:00.780 --> 01:14:04.639
But do you are you saying that you foresee certain providers
1094
01:14:05.085 --> 01:14:08.305
basically having infrastructure hosted globally so
1095
01:14:08.685 --> 01:14:13.185
that within a certain provider, you get that, or are you talking about different companies?
1096
01:14:14.480 --> 01:14:18.400
Both. But, yeah. Option 1 definitely would be a a good,
1097
01:14:19.360 --> 01:14:20.180
a good business.
1098
01:14:21.074 --> 01:14:24.695
So in option 1, how do you foresee that? You see, like,
1099
01:14:25.235 --> 01:14:27.655
you have servers hosted in, let's say, Switzerland
1100
01:14:28.755 --> 01:14:29.255
and
1101
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:37.500
Paraguay, and then, like, if Switzerland passes a bad law, then all of a sudden those servers are wiped, but the Paraguay servers continue?
1102
01:14:37.935 --> 01:14:43.155
As a service. Just say that's not things which were not done before by people we know.
1103
01:14:44.495 --> 01:14:45.235
Got it.
1104
01:14:46.380 --> 01:14:52.559
Well, guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I do appreciate your time. I appreciate all the work you've done in with Noddle.
1105
01:14:53.615 --> 01:14:56.115
I love the hardware that I use from you guys.
1106
01:14:56.895 --> 01:14:59.235
I've never had any issues with it.
1107
01:15:00.015 --> 01:15:01.990
My SSDs haven't failed yet.
1108
01:15:02.550 --> 01:15:06.250
You kinda got me a little bit worried when we were talking about SSD failures,
1109
01:15:06.630 --> 01:15:07.130
so
1110
01:15:08.870 --> 01:15:10.970
we'll we'll see how long that lasts.
1111
01:15:11.315 --> 01:15:17.895
But I do appreciate all the work you guys have done, and I I do consider you both very good friends. I hope to see you again soon in person.
1112
01:15:20.790 --> 01:15:23.050
Thank you. I appreciate you guys.
1113
01:15:23.590 --> 01:15:26.170
Thanks for having us. You, and say say hi to the family.
1114
01:15:26.710 --> 01:15:27.770
Will do. Likewise.
1115
01:15:29.485 --> 01:15:34.465
And a big thank you to the freaks who joined us. Thank you again for dealing with my so called potato
1116
01:15:34.844 --> 01:15:36.145
quality on my mic.
1117
01:15:37.630 --> 01:15:40.530
I do care about the quality of this show, and
1118
01:15:40.909 --> 01:15:42.050
I do care about
1119
01:15:42.989 --> 01:15:45.650
getting content to you guys that is actionable,
1120
01:15:46.625 --> 01:15:50.805
helpful, and informative on a weekly basis. So I will continue my best,
1121
01:15:51.425 --> 01:15:53.125
to try and improve on that front,
1122
01:15:54.980 --> 01:16:01.239
And that's part of why I moved. So I appreciate you all. I appreciate you, Kito. I appreciate you Asquoo. I appreciate you Freaks.
1123
01:16:01.940 --> 01:16:02.440
And
1124
01:16:03.325 --> 01:16:05.825
if you're interested in the Noddle, you can go to noddle.it.
1125
01:16:06.605 --> 01:16:07.745
That's nodl.it.
1126
01:16:11.350 --> 01:16:12.969
Until next time. Thank you, guys.
1127
01:16:15.110 --> 01:16:16.090
Thank you. Bye.
1128
01:17:30.015 --> 01:17:30.915
The clock? Einstein,
1129
01:17:31.855 --> 01:17:37.315
James Dean? Brooklyn's down to win a team, David Crockett, Peter Pan? Elvis Presley, Disneyland,
1130
01:17:37.695 --> 01:17:38.915
Bardo, Budapest,
1131
01:19:00.205 --> 01:19:00.705
say?
1132
01:19:19.775 --> 01:19:21.875
Punk rock. Baitin' Reagan, Palestine.
1133
01:19:22.255 --> 01:19:23.635
Terror on the airline.
1134
01:19:24.014 --> 01:19:26.594
Ayatollahs in Iran, Russians and Afghanistan.
1135
01:19:27.135 --> 01:19:27.910
We're the fortune
1136
01:20:24.410 --> 01:20:26.510
Cheers, freaks. I'll see you Thursday
1137
01:20:26.970 --> 01:20:28.590
for another rabbit hole recap,
1138
01:20:28.912 --> 01:20:31.732
and I'll see you Tuesday for another serial dispatch.
1139
01:20:32.192 --> 01:20:34.612
Love you all. Stay on Bold and Stack Sats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:29:32 PM
Duration: 4835.657
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:00.900
2
00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:22.780
3
00:00:23.240 --> 00:00:24.060
in the digitization,
4
00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:27.820
that is occurring and the disruption that's occurring
5
00:00:28.175 --> 00:00:34.434
in the way financial services are delivered, as I said to you, both for institutions and for individuals. I think it's a massive shift.
6
00:00:34.975 --> 00:00:51.605
We're trying to participate in it Right. Based on what we're doing around Goldman Sachs Marcus and our digital banking platform. Do you want your clients in it? I'm sorry? Do you want your clients in it? I I want our clients to to to do what they think they wanna do. As a speculative asset, is it interesting, and are some of our clients participating?
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Absolutely.
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But
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whether it goes up or down, my guess is look at the last week. It's gonna go up. It's gonna go down. I don't know what the permanent state of Bitcoin is, but I think Bitcoin
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is really not the key thing. The key thing
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is how can blockchain or other technologies that are not developed yet accelerate the pace of the digitization
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of the way financial services are delivered. And I, you know, I just talked to you about our digital bank. You know that we just made an announcement
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out at AWS
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reinvent Yep. About a platform, the financial cloud, that we're building in partnership with AWS for institutional clients.
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All of that is the changing of the digital processes
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that kinda lubricate the way financial services are delivered. And I think that's a big opportunity and we're excited about that. And that gives your clients it's almost direct
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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That dude on the clip
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was the CEO of Goldman Sachs showing the whole world that he is
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completely unaware of the revolution that is Bitcoin. If you do not think it's early,
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you are not gonna make it.
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We have a very special,
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show on deck here for you today. It's a conversation that I've been looking forward to,
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with 2 good friends.
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Before we get started, I just wanted to do a shout out to the ride or die who continue to support the show, keep it ad free and sponsor free, and focus on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
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You guys,
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make this
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you make dispatch happen every week, and I really do appreciate it.
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And a massive shout out to the rider dive freaks who join us in the live chat, providing your comments and your questions.
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You make this show unique. Keep it coming. I do appreciate you.
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The easiest way to support dispatch
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00:03:20.609 --> 00:03:23.989
is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites
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are Fountain Podcasts and Breeze. That's b r e e z.
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If you use those apps, you can load it up with sats, you can search Citadel dispatch, and you can stream sats directly to my lightning note. You can also support the show by going to sidildispatch.com, where you can support it through lightning
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00:03:44.125 --> 00:03:49.425
or through my samurai painting, which is Odell. Very easy to remember. So thank you again for your support.
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You can also buy a hat if you wanna support the show. A lot of freaks prefer to go that method. They've been sold out for a long time, but they are back in stock,
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and they are shipping globally. They should arrive
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before Christmas unless
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you're located in Australia
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where shipping takes longer, and then they'll probably arrive 1st week of January.
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If you wanna hack, cildispatch.com/stack,
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you can also get a flask,
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magnets, or pins through that link. So thank you, freaks.
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This is serial dispatch 47.
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We're gonna be focusing on the future Bitcoin nodes and specifically
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Nodal's new Nodalito.
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They're calling it the Nodal Lite, but I hope by the end of this conversation,
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we will have agreed that it will be referred to as the Nautilito going forward.
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I got 2 of my good friends here, the founders of Nautil.
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We have KetoMiner, return guest. How's it going, KetoMiner?
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I'm good. Good. Hi, guys. I think it's Asquoo's first time on dispatch, so give him a warm welcome. Thank you for finally joining us.
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Mhmm. So first off,
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my head's a little all over the place. I am in the process of moving. I'm literally surrounded by boxes right now, so I apologize to the freaks,
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if you can tell.
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We're gonna make this conversation the show must go on, so we're gonna make this conversation happen, and I am looking forward to it.
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We have where should we get started? I I think, an interesting place to get started here
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is ask who just got back from El Salvador. What were your experiences like in El Salvador? Did it change, like, your view on how how to move forward both as a Bitcoiner and, you know, as as a founder of a Bitcoin company focused on notes?
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I I
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you just mentioned Nautilato, actually. I was reading through the comments. You know, the moment you start the show, the comments pour in, which is really funny. And before you said anything,
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Crypto Clydesdale,
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went up and said something about Nautilato.
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So one of the things that I'm really curious about here is,
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does that name catch on? Because,
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you're you're a big supporter of it, I think.
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Quincher is the one who came up with it, and and we kinda like it. It's growing on us. So if anybody wants to tell us how how they feel about it, I'm I'm really curious. I mean, Nautilito is clearly the better better name. It seems to be. So we we will not be sure by the end of the show. It's the lit it's the little Nautil.
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So, I mean, we can jump in we can just jump directly into the Natalito. I mean, we have a lot to talk about there. But before we I'm not gonna just let you off the hook. El Salvador didn't your experience in El Salvador didn't change your perspective at all?
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was,
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a little bit of an eye opener
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just because,
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I think it's a new stage.
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I agree with you when you say it's super early. I still think it's super early. I tell everybody who wants to hear that it's still super early. But
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I think when we launched the first model a few years ago,
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Lightning had just come out, and it wasn't that big of a deal yet.
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It's really become a big deal lightning last year, and,
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we felt a big difference.
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And now, like, countries being onboarded to Bitcoin is another big stage.
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And,
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you know, you would have told me that a couple years ago.
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That's what we wanted to see,
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but I didn't think it was that close.
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And,
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it's here. It's real. I mean, it it's, it's a really big deal. So,
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it's, it's very humbling to see how much has been done
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and yet, you know, just just realize how much you still have to do in a in a way. But it's catching on big time big time.
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So And anybody who's missed it, really, I mean, it's stupid not to go. You you should go within the year. You know? Go check it out.
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Yes. I am.
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I'm talking to you, Theo.
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he he he made he made sure to,
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message me
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many times
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about me not making the trip to El Salvador yet and not going down with him. So I do I will apologize to you on air that I wasn't able to make it happen,
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but I do intend to go very soon. I think he also,
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you, like, sent out a subtweet where you were kind of,
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going after me a little bit for not going. So I didn't notice that. Just a personal message. Just you.
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at the end of the day, it's an excuse.
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you can notice
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on-site
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is probably really smart thing to do.
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But that being said,
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Bitcoiners are just gonna pour in every single week,
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into the country.
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And not only, like, San Salvador, Al Zante, etcetera, but, like, all over the place,
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probably the neighboring countries too.
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And, they'll get a continuous flow of Bitcoiners coming in now. And and that, I think, is really interesting. So you can go whenever you want, really.
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Yeah.
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Were you there for the actual when they announced the Bitcoin City and the Bitcoin Bonds?
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you get into the the because it's a night club, basically. You go into the night club. You wait for the president for 2 hours till it fills up. It's really packed.
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ACDC,
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fireworks, all that shit. You know? But,
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it was the first time when you enter the club, instead of having, like, a VIP
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lane, you have the big corner lane kind of thing. So they park us all in front of him.
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And
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while he makes his announcement, he's actually looking at us. Like, it's the first time, like, people talk to us as a Bitcoin crowd directly
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saying,
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it's you guys we want here because
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we believe in what you guys are doing. There's value that you guys add
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that we think beats the market.
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And,
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we want to make it known to the entire world that we're we're gonna cater to you and compete with them on, you know, taxes and basically
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economic strategy.
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So it's the first time
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like, a government talks to us as Bitcoiners.
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And I was there in the crowd, and it's kinda weird.
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Mixed feelings,
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but it's interesting.
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as it was happening. It's kinda unreal to see it happen. I mean,
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you know, friend of
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good friend Parker Lewis, you know, he he likes to say gradually then suddenly, and it really felt like a gradually then suddenly kinda situation where
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up until the exact point where it happens, it feels like, oh, well, it will take a while, before you start to see a nation state really court Bitcoiners
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and and lean into Bitcoin hard and and actually have, you know, a relatively coherent
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long term Bitcoin strategy.
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And then before you know it, it's actually happening,
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it doesn't make that much difference, and yet the world will never be the same again
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because they took that extra step.
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And it's nice to be there to see it.
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where where where do we go here from here? You know?
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soon
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so that they don't get to be singled out and become too big of a target, because
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I'd be afraid if I were him.
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That's one thing. And,
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2, so that they can run their own experiments and potentially do it differently because, you know, that's just one example. They'll do it one way. There's probably other ways to do it.
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The more the better, I guess.
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When you when you have a first mover,
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they obviously have an advantage, but
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in terms of censorship resistance and
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distribution, you you you want you want some competition there. You want other people joining the fray.
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I think it's as true for
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countries as it is for ASIC producers or node producers
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or wallets, mobile wallets, what whatever it is in Bitcoin land,
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you want as many options as possible, and they kind of help protect each other. Absolutely.
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Let's,
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let's bring it back to Nodl. I mean, so Nodl is a company that you guys both founded,
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that was at the forefront of this idea of a plug and play note box.
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I remember when the first model came out,
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all these players that you see today didn't really exist.
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I'm pretty sure my note didn't exist. Umbral didn't exist.
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I don't think Raspberry Pi Blitz existed yet, but the Raspberry Pi Bolt project existed.
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I think you already did, but some very early version of it. Yeah. It was super early. Lightning was super early. I had the original model.
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I think I was, like, one of the first 10 or 15 people to have the original model.
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When was that? What year was that? 2019, 2018?
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So we had so I think I got the original model 20, like, January 2019.
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Then you came out with the Nautil Dojo,
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which is a more high end box.
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It had redundant
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drives on it, redundant,
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SSDs. It it was encrypted by default.
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It had a kill switch. It still exists. You guys still sell it.
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I guess I came, like, a year later. I have the first one that was produced.
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Very proudly still own both of those nozzles.
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And now we have this new product, the Nodalite. So those first two nozzles
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were very much geared to the enthusiast crowd,
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to the Bitcoiner that is obsessed with Bitcoin,
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that wants to
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upgrade their experience and tinker with the tools.
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It feels like the Nautilito,
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or the Nautilite, as you call it, is
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is a is a different approach here. It's it's geared towards
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this,
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this this new
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class of Bitcoiner that's, you know, maybe a merchant, maybe in a developing world, maybe doesn't really know that much about Bitcoin yet.
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What is your perspective there on on how
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you view your customers evolving and,
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you know, the birth of the Natalito?
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we think that not
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everybody wants to
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host,
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their box at home or in their office because some people can't and some people,
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just don't have
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a good place for that or good connectivity
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or or whatever.
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So we we actually started with an old cloud, which is the cloud version of the of the boxes. It provides the same service as it runs your full node,
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Bitcoin core with
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LNG, BTC, pay server, the whole stack.
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And
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then we started thinking, like, not everybody wants to run, like, the full stack, and not everybody needs to run the full stack.
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But having
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the
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the lightning node running
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in some hosting provider actually
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is a kind of custody.
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And what we wanted to solve is, like, the user will still still run the lightning part,
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behind some shitty connection
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as long as it's connected 247.
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Doesn't have to be fast. It doesn't have to be very reliable.
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And use all the older services which don't include any wireless. Because for if you run the TCP server in the cloud, it doesn't have any private keys. It only have has your XPAD.
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And for Lightning, you still need this this LND or c lightning or whatever running somewhere. So instead of trying some hybrid app approach like,
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that's,
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blockchain project. I forgot the name.
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Just started our voltage,
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who, like, split the keys between the node and your computer.
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We said, okay. Let's just put the LND
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on premises.
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You own your LND. It's in a box in your place. VPNs back
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to
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to our servers running BTC pay server, or it can also VPN back to a big node or running somewhere else. So you can have, like,
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one node of running in some community, and then people are,
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just connecting additional
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LNDs to that node.
245
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Yeah. That that that that's a big idea behind it. And,
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yeah, of course, there is, like, an opportunity to make something lighter and cheaper. So emerging markets are probably a good place to to try to sell that,
247
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but it's not, like, the first reason for doing it.
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249
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jumped jumped the gun here. We have the Nautilite,
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to the people who are watching the video streams. And just to remind everyone,
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all of our
252
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our our fantastic dispatch audience. If you are new to dispatch, the way you can participate in the live chat or
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or watch it live through video
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00:18:54.925 --> 00:18:56.945
is through Twitter, Twitch, or YouTube.
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You can access those links at cildispatch.com
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when we're doing the show.
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The videos are posted afterwards to bitcointv.com,
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and they're also still available on YouTube and Twitch. All those links are at silodiscatch.com.
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To our people that are are watching it,
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I'm gonna bring up a little picture of the Nautilito.
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So
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the idea of the Nautilito
263
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is
264
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a low cost device.
265
00:19:29.235 --> 00:19:34.295
Wait. What is it? The idea of the Nautilito is a low cost device that runs lightning locally for a merchant.
266
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267
00:19:36.080 --> 00:19:44.240
So yeah. So let let's debunk many things that people asked on on Twitter so far. Like, it's not a satellite device. It's not a mesh device. It's,
268
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it has only Ethernet and Wi Fi.
269
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We are working on other things with satellites and mesh networks, but that's that's a story for another day. This one is just a simple,
270
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LND in a box with a VPN capability to to
271
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dial back into a centralized BTC pay server.
272
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273
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It's not running Bitcoin Core on the device.
274
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It's not running BTCPay on the device.
275
00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:17.980
It's only running LND.
276
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277
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LND plus the tooling around LND. So RTO,
278
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those things relay and so on.
279
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Only small things.
280
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281
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.440
282
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after,
283
00:20:35.315 --> 00:20:40.934
the announcement by Jack Mahler that, El Salvador was gonna pass that new law. You know?
284
00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.919
And when we heard about El Salvador, I think so. We
285
00:20:46.340 --> 00:20:47.640
like, Quito was thinking,
286
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this is gonna happen super fast. They're gonna have to convert an entire country. Merchants that have gone are gonna have to be onboarded fast, etcetera.
287
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What could we potentially do,
288
00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:02.840
not necessarily us, but anyone,
289
00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:09.855
to kind of prevent them from being onboarded to, like, custodial tools, private tools, etcetera, etcetera.
290
00:21:11.115 --> 00:21:15.760
So that was the question really. Then when we looked at what we did with Nodl,
291
00:21:16.139 --> 00:21:19.840
we thought there's no real way for us to service them because
292
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the devices we build,
293
00:21:22.005 --> 00:21:24.825
you know, you are are great for what they do,
294
00:21:25.125 --> 00:21:28.825
but you can't really sell those devices to people there
295
00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:35.700
because of the price, because of the knowledge needed maybe to operate them, etcetera, etcetera.
296
00:21:36.615 --> 00:21:37.115
And,
297
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eventually, Keto came up with the approach of saying,
298
00:21:42.295 --> 00:21:43.355
you want users,
299
00:21:43.800 --> 00:21:50.460
end users, to actually have their own keys, control their own keys, the l and d keys, if if they're running a BTCPay store.
300
00:21:52.445 --> 00:21:55.505
And they need to have a device to do it, but they don't necessarily
301
00:21:55.805 --> 00:22:01.265
need the processing behind, like, Bitcoin Core actually running BTC Pay Server, etcetera,
302
00:22:02.310 --> 00:22:06.250
that we could do for them with the infrastructure. And then he came up with a solution,
303
00:22:06.710 --> 00:22:13.155
which is kinda hybrid and new because I don't think anybody does that kind of stuff today. But, you know, that's part of the reasoning.
304
00:22:13.615 --> 00:22:17.315
305
00:22:17.695 --> 00:22:18.835
I saw the video,
306
00:22:19.890 --> 00:22:21.830
and heard you in the background,
307
00:22:22.290 --> 00:22:25.670
where they were having issues with Chivo, which is the government's,
308
00:22:27.090 --> 00:22:28.310
custodial wallet
309
00:22:29.025 --> 00:22:29.924
that they provide.
310
00:22:32.465 --> 00:22:39.310
This is supposed to be an alternative for a merchant there instead of using something like that or using a different mobile wallet. Correct?
311
00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:47.025
312
00:22:47.485 --> 00:22:48.545
you could probably
313
00:22:50.045 --> 00:22:50.865
help people
314
00:22:51.805 --> 00:22:55.030
there with, like, simpler, lighter devices,
315
00:22:55.490 --> 00:22:57.750
and that's the first step in that direction.
316
00:22:58.450 --> 00:23:00.870
317
00:23:02.005 --> 00:23:02.745
by removing
318
00:23:03.684 --> 00:23:06.424
Bitcoin d, removing Bitcoin Core, removing
319
00:23:07.524 --> 00:23:08.024
BTCPay,
320
00:23:08.325 --> 00:23:09.284
putting those in the
321
00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:14.240
in your cloud infrastructure, which, by the way, a lot of freaks probably aren't aware,
322
00:23:15.020 --> 00:23:19.600
you guys, for the last year or so, have been working on building out Nautle Cloud,
323
00:23:20.455 --> 00:23:27.434
which is a key aspect of this component here. The a key aspect of the Nautilito is that you have this Nautil cloud infrastructure.
324
00:23:28.090 --> 00:23:30.670
The reasoning for removing that is primarily
325
00:23:31.770 --> 00:23:32.990
cost and bandwidth.
326
00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:36.190
Right? Getting the cost down of the Nautilito,
327
00:23:37.455 --> 00:23:42.995
to a sub a $100 price point. I don't think you guys have actually announced the price point yet. Are you gonna announce it on the show?
328
00:23:43.855 --> 00:23:45.395
329
00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:48.460
when the news came out sorry.
330
00:23:49.320 --> 00:23:54.780
We'll we'll come back to announce it later. When when the news came out, it came out in, in BTC Mag.
331
00:23:55.524 --> 00:23:57.144
I think they listed under
332
00:23:57.605 --> 00:23:58.105
$200,
333
00:23:58.565 --> 00:24:00.404
which wasn't exactly what we had,
334
00:24:01.205 --> 00:24:03.625
in mind, so it'll be cheaper than that anyways.
335
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.760
Then it just depends what you package,
336
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:14.145
337
00:24:14.605 --> 00:24:18.385
cost cost and guess get I guess getting cost down. Right? Because
338
00:24:19.005 --> 00:24:20.305
by by moving
339
00:24:20.845 --> 00:24:22.465
Bitcoin Core and BTCPay
340
00:24:23.550 --> 00:24:25.890
to the cloud, you're able to ship a product,
341
00:24:27.070 --> 00:24:30.290
that is less powerful without a without an SSD.
342
00:24:32.505 --> 00:24:33.325
343
00:24:33.785 --> 00:24:34.285
cheaper,
344
00:24:35.945 --> 00:24:40.285
probably leaner if if some of the the management is done somewhere else.
345
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.200
And doesn't,
346
00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:47.780
need as many resources from a network perspective like like Kito mentioned earlier.
347
00:24:50.215 --> 00:24:51.595
348
00:24:53.495 --> 00:24:54.715
so I I guess
349
00:24:55.255 --> 00:24:59.840
so and and there is still some trust here, and it's about minimizing the trust. It's
350
00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:02.160
about it's about the trust trade off. Right?
351
00:25:03.179 --> 00:25:05.600
352
00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:08.515
with the El Salvador example was,
353
00:25:09.155 --> 00:25:11.255
the Bitcoin Beach Wallet, actually,
354
00:25:11.955 --> 00:25:13.095
that the team,
355
00:25:13.635 --> 00:25:14.455
at Galloway
356
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:18.740
are pushing that concept of, like, community
357
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:19.940
wallets,
358
00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:24.500
community custody, etcetera. And so they have some kind of custodial
359
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:25.460
model
360
00:25:26.225 --> 00:25:27.365
where keys
361
00:25:28.065 --> 00:25:32.565
I don't know how many keys they have in the community, but there's several people who manage the keys,
362
00:25:33.025 --> 00:25:34.565
for the entire village, basically.
363
00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:44.440
364
00:25:44.945 --> 00:25:45.605
on chain
365
00:25:46.225 --> 00:25:48.085
by trusted members of the community,
366
00:25:48.865 --> 00:25:52.085
and then they have a custodial lightning wallet portion
367
00:25:52.544 --> 00:25:53.684
that is not multisig.
368
00:25:53.985 --> 00:25:54.485
So
369
00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:59.960
in that situation, they're making that trust trade off that even if that Lightning Wallet gets
370
00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:01.800
hacked or compromised
371
00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:03.480
or exit scammed,
372
00:26:03.825 --> 00:26:11.765
the overwhelming majority of funds will still be held in multisig. And as long as a quorum of those trusted community members aren't,
373
00:26:12.540 --> 00:26:13.920
malicious and work together,
374
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:18.060
those funds should be safe. And as a result, you get an easier UX,
375
00:26:20.065 --> 00:26:24.645
and and you don't have to deal with, like, liquidity issues and stuff like that that we see on Lightning.
376
00:26:29.430 --> 00:26:31.770
377
00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:40.534
you have so that's one community that is now famous in the in the entire world because of of of what happened in El Salvador.
378
00:26:41.394 --> 00:26:42.215
There's other
379
00:26:42.595 --> 00:26:46.695
communities, I understand, in other countries that are starting to to build projects
380
00:26:47.080 --> 00:26:49.340
either similar or their own versions of it.
381
00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:52.300
But what if you could have one
382
00:26:53.320 --> 00:26:55.020
full node in a community
383
00:26:55.695 --> 00:26:57.554
and then a bunch of lighter devices
384
00:26:59.215 --> 00:27:00.434
managed by the merchants,
385
00:27:01.855 --> 00:27:03.235
and have an another
386
00:27:03.535 --> 00:27:05.475
model of community setup
387
00:27:07.809 --> 00:27:10.710
where the merchant still manages their their their,
388
00:27:11.169 --> 00:27:12.765
you know, lightning keys.
389
00:27:14.365 --> 00:27:15.265
390
00:27:16.605 --> 00:27:17.105
here,
391
00:27:17.405 --> 00:27:19.745
you could imagine a situation where
392
00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:23.019
there are 40 Nautolitos
393
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:25.100
in San Salvador,
394
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.665
and then they're connecting instead of connecting to the Nautle cloud
395
00:27:31.765 --> 00:27:32.905
for those
396
00:27:33.205 --> 00:27:38.790
for that back end, they could be connecting to someone's Nautle Dojo that's in the community that they trust.
397
00:27:39.910 --> 00:27:40.730
398
00:27:42.550 --> 00:27:43.050
399
00:27:43.510 --> 00:27:45.030
400
00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:46.650
Uncle Jim model.
401
00:27:47.275 --> 00:27:49.855
402
00:27:50.235 --> 00:27:55.215
403
00:27:55.650 --> 00:27:56.710
404
00:27:58.370 --> 00:27:59.590
Why is Uncle Sam?
405
00:28:00.370 --> 00:28:01.510
406
00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:03.429
407
00:28:06.025 --> 00:28:09.165
So, okay, so this is interesting. So so when we
408
00:28:09.785 --> 00:28:10.765
when we imagine
409
00:28:11.305 --> 00:28:12.365
when we imagine,
410
00:28:13.490 --> 00:28:16.549
a not Alito in practice, how do you, like, see that
411
00:28:17.010 --> 00:28:20.690
unfolding? Like, I I mean, they're obviously they're still gonna run into
412
00:28:22.135 --> 00:28:24.395
so users are holding their own lightning keys.
413
00:28:25.175 --> 00:28:28.555
That wallet is a hot wallet. That one's always always connected.
414
00:28:29.990 --> 00:28:34.490
They're getting a trusted source of information in terms of of the Bitcoin chain.
415
00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:39.495
What kind of trust do they have to put into that BTCPay
416
00:28:40.034 --> 00:28:40.534
instance?
417
00:28:45.230 --> 00:28:47.370
418
00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:56.885
Worst case scenario, we could, like, hijack all the BTC pay accounts and point them at our lightning notes instead.
419
00:29:00.545 --> 00:29:04.610
But they, I mean, they they can see on their side in our tier
420
00:29:05.150 --> 00:29:06.210
or or other tools
421
00:29:06.590 --> 00:29:09.785
that the invoice was actually created and paid to their notes.
422
00:29:10.118 --> 00:29:11.452
So, yeah, I think
423
00:29:12.118 --> 00:29:20.380
424
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:27.900
425
00:29:31.145 --> 00:29:32.445
426
00:29:32.825 --> 00:29:36.125
that these merchants are gonna be accepting both Onchain and Lightning?
427
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:38.740
428
00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:40.899
Onchain at least has a fallback.
429
00:29:43.684 --> 00:29:47.945
430
00:29:49.525 --> 00:29:51.220
431
00:29:51.860 --> 00:29:54.360
just the expo on the BTPC server itself.
432
00:29:55.299 --> 00:30:05.365
433
00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:14.350
Okay. That makes sense to me. Okay. So when so we have these merchants. They have a not a little in their store.
434
00:30:15.515 --> 00:30:20.495
They probably have it connected via Wi Fi, but it also has an Ethernet port. They can connect it via Ethernet.
435
00:30:22.830 --> 00:30:34.174
What are they using to actually invoice the customer? So they they got, like, a are they using a mobile phone? Are they using a tablet? Like, how does that interaction with their customer actually look like? Well, they they
436
00:30:34.575 --> 00:30:39.955
437
00:30:40.860 --> 00:30:42.700
to go back to that. Yeah. Also
438
00:30:45.020 --> 00:30:50.415
439
00:30:51.915 --> 00:30:53.455
by scanning a QR code?
440
00:30:54.555 --> 00:30:59.110
441
00:30:59.490 --> 00:31:07.190
442
00:31:07.505 --> 00:31:11.284
the overwhelming majority of this target market has gotta be physical
443
00:31:12.065 --> 00:31:13.365
physical sales now.
444
00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:23.500
445
00:31:24.115 --> 00:31:25.815
type of business right now,
446
00:31:27.075 --> 00:31:30.615
be because of being unbanked, so not having any way to pay online.
447
00:31:32.150 --> 00:31:35.210
But that's also maybe some market which could just
448
00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:37.850
begin, thanks to Bitcoin.
449
00:31:40.975 --> 00:31:44.275
Like, first solve the payment issue then can start doing ecommerce.
450
00:31:45.695 --> 00:31:46.434
451
00:31:47.934 --> 00:31:48.434
Cool.
452
00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:54.690
So, Friex, I will remind you if you have any questions, feel free to put them in the live chat, and we will answer them.
453
00:31:57.165 --> 00:31:59.585
When do you guys think the Nautilito is gonna ship?
454
00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:06.070
Tough question.
455
00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:08.470
456
00:32:10.050 --> 00:32:11.830
First half of next year.
457
00:32:12.365 --> 00:32:13.185
Very conservative.
458
00:32:14.925 --> 00:32:23.490
459
00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:24.450
fleet.
460
00:32:27.304 --> 00:32:31.085
Do you wanna talk about that experience at all? Like, where do you stand on that right now?
461
00:32:31.625 --> 00:32:38.640
462
00:32:40.220 --> 00:32:41.600
463
00:32:46.085 --> 00:32:50.664
464
00:32:50.970 --> 00:32:55.710
actually is not like shortage in our case. It's rather like a slow wage.
465
00:32:57.610 --> 00:33:01.385
And, and some prices become unpredictable, which which sucks.
466
00:33:03.525 --> 00:33:05.625
But yeah. And and we have some
467
00:33:06.085 --> 00:33:07.784
some assembly slash
468
00:33:09.190 --> 00:33:11.850
hardware issues which we are trying to solve. So we
469
00:33:12.230 --> 00:33:15.690
we are doing more testing on each device than we used to.
470
00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:22.065
We used to run them for 2 days before shipping them. Now we keep them a whole week.
471
00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:29.320
But yeah. And and What's the reasoning for that?
472
00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:32.680
473
00:33:33.115 --> 00:33:38.495
474
00:33:39.275 --> 00:33:40.335
if they do. Interesting.
475
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:44.140
And we
476
00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:50.535
kind of have an idea of what's going on, but it's very hard to prove.
477
00:33:51.095 --> 00:33:51.595
And,
478
00:33:52.335 --> 00:33:56.135
and I go to see the supplier and tell them that's the problem. Please fix it.
479
00:33:57.655 --> 00:34:00.870
But, yeah, we are we are actively working on that. And also
480
00:34:01.330 --> 00:34:04.309
buying more components to build more and just,
481
00:34:06.225 --> 00:34:10.165
yeah, just just build more, test more, and ship more.
482
00:34:11.185 --> 00:34:11.825
483
00:34:12.944 --> 00:34:13.650
484
00:34:16.130 --> 00:34:18.710
the yeah. Go on. Who aren't necessarily, aware of, like,
485
00:34:19.010 --> 00:34:19.750
you know,
486
00:34:20.770 --> 00:34:22.470
what Nautilus looks like,
487
00:34:23.305 --> 00:34:24.685
The first batch
488
00:34:25.865 --> 00:34:28.105
of nodes we sold were,
489
00:34:28.585 --> 00:34:31.244
were actually pre ordered. So people paid us upfront.
490
00:34:31.810 --> 00:34:33.430
We used the money to buy components.
491
00:34:34.609 --> 00:34:38.930
We built the nodes, and then we shipped them a couple, I don't know, months later maybe or something,
492
00:34:39.330 --> 00:34:40.070
at first.
493
00:34:40.494 --> 00:34:43.234
And then we use the proceeds to buy more
494
00:34:43.775 --> 00:34:46.675
hardware, etcetera, to build more nodes, etcetera. But
495
00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:53.600
this was entirely bootstrapped. It's a really small operation. Sometimes people don't necessarily realize it,
496
00:34:54.755 --> 00:34:57.015
But it's just a very small outfit.
497
00:34:58.275 --> 00:35:01.494
And, it's very manual. It's very artisanal.
498
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.700
And, you know,
499
00:35:04.319 --> 00:35:07.140
some people aren't aware of it. But, you know,
500
00:35:07.520 --> 00:35:15.525
it's just how it is. Yeah. I mean, Kito's literally building them in his living room. Right? Exactly. Yeah. He outsourced this to to his wife, actually.
501
00:35:17.025 --> 00:35:18.325
502
00:35:20.060 --> 00:35:25.760
503
00:35:27.355 --> 00:35:30.555
504
00:35:32.795 --> 00:35:34.175
she's a great lady.
505
00:35:34.730 --> 00:35:38.350
So you're you're very yeah. I didn't know if I should say that or not, but, yeah, Enrica.
506
00:35:39.930 --> 00:35:44.704
So you're very lucky to to we're both very lucky to have each other. And then this is the
507
00:35:45.184 --> 00:35:50.644
so you have 3 models right now. You have what are you calling this? You're calling this the Nodl 1 by the way, that's nodl.it
508
00:35:51.184 --> 00:35:52.700
is their website, nodl.it.
509
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:55.580
The Nodl 1
510
00:35:56.200 --> 00:35:59.980
is, like, the current entry level device. You have the Nodl Dojo,
511
00:36:01.464 --> 00:36:02.684
which is more expensive,
512
00:36:03.144 --> 00:36:04.285
has better specs,
513
00:36:04.744 --> 00:36:10.700
and then now you have this new one which kinda slots in underneath the 2 of them, which you're calling the Nautilite.
514
00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:16.860
And once again, I I think the biggest differentiation here is I I feel like your
515
00:36:17.345 --> 00:36:19.605
your previous hardware attempts has been
516
00:36:20.224 --> 00:36:21.765
a focus on this
517
00:36:22.065 --> 00:36:22.565
more
518
00:36:22.944 --> 00:36:28.640
enthusiast crowd, this more ride or die coiner crowd. And and this feels like more of a mainstream product,
519
00:36:31.020 --> 00:36:32.880
with a completely different demographic.
520
00:36:33.260 --> 00:36:34.640
So what is the Nautilite?
521
00:36:35.725 --> 00:36:44.305
522
00:36:44.850 --> 00:36:45.830
3 years ago,
523
00:36:47.330 --> 00:36:52.310
if you weren't going for the people who knew about it and who were really, like, early,
524
00:36:52.775 --> 00:36:55.095
you weren't talking to anyone at all. And,
525
00:36:55.655 --> 00:36:58.715
you see a lot of people now who are super bullish on Lightning.
526
00:36:59.494 --> 00:37:02.450
You didn't get the same stuff from them, like, a couple years ago.
527
00:37:03.570 --> 00:37:06.470
So there's been a big change. Honestly, we've noticed that.
528
00:37:07.329 --> 00:37:09.589
And there's a lot more people coming in the space.
529
00:37:10.445 --> 00:37:13.745
It's on TV every day if you watch TV. You know?
530
00:37:15.965 --> 00:37:22.980
531
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.099
went mainstream.
532
00:37:26.145 --> 00:37:26.645
And,
533
00:37:27.185 --> 00:37:30.085
I don't think even Nutrieno existed back then. And
534
00:37:31.185 --> 00:37:32.005
last year,
535
00:37:33.970 --> 00:37:40.070
the compact filters were finally merged into Bitcoin Core, so we see more and more in the server. So,
536
00:37:40.370 --> 00:37:43.350
basically, what we are doing now with this new
537
00:37:43.845 --> 00:37:44.345
nodal
538
00:37:44.724 --> 00:37:51.464
539
00:37:52.109 --> 00:37:57.490
Yeah. Yeah. So it's using an open standard to connect. Do you wanna explain to the freaks what Neutrino is?
540
00:37:58.895 --> 00:37:59.474
541
00:38:00.015 --> 00:38:00.175
try.
542
00:38:00.974 --> 00:38:01.474
It's
543
00:38:01.935 --> 00:38:04.355
a it's a type of very light
544
00:38:06.150 --> 00:38:08.490
Bitcoin node running inside LND,
545
00:38:09.990 --> 00:38:12.490
which uses compact filters, which is
546
00:38:14.125 --> 00:38:14.785
kind of
547
00:38:15.165 --> 00:38:17.905
the same idea as an SPV wallet, basically.
548
00:38:18.685 --> 00:38:25.020
549
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:27.160
Keto, tell me if I explain it well.
550
00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:29.455
I mean, you're European, so you might not
551
00:38:30.095 --> 00:38:31.555
understand my metaphor.
552
00:38:32.255 --> 00:38:35.395
So instead of sending full blocks to the not Alito,
553
00:38:35.935 --> 00:38:39.075
Nutrino allows you to which are heavy on bandwidth,
554
00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:40.980
but you need a lot of Internet,
555
00:38:41.680 --> 00:38:42.339
for it.
556
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.980
You're sending the SparkNotes, you're basically sending,
557
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:49.220
a summary of the blocks.
558
00:38:49.575 --> 00:38:50.795
And then if the Nautilitos
559
00:38:51.175 --> 00:38:54.714
sees something in those spark notes that they need,
560
00:38:55.575 --> 00:39:01.390
it it'll then pull that specific block and only that block rather than every block as it comes in.
561
00:39:02.810 --> 00:39:05.470
562
00:39:06.005 --> 00:39:07.464
it comes with some downsides.
563
00:39:08.404 --> 00:39:11.065
I don't know if there is a fix for that or if,
564
00:39:12.085 --> 00:39:15.370
or if it's, like, at the protocol level and it can be fixed.
565
00:39:15.750 --> 00:39:17.530
But for example, the nodes
566
00:39:17.830 --> 00:39:18.650
don't track
567
00:39:19.110 --> 00:39:26.475
the closing transactions of channels, so we have to wait until the channels channels time out before noticing that they are closed.
568
00:39:27.975 --> 00:39:29.175
So it's not perfect, but,
569
00:39:30.670 --> 00:39:37.730
that's also why we want this product to come standard with a channel and liquidity management service.
570
00:39:38.675 --> 00:39:42.695
571
00:39:43.875 --> 00:39:46.410
hurdle for a Sovereign Lightning merchant,
572
00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:50.589
specifically inbound liquidity, the ability to receive payments on Lightning.
573
00:39:51.450 --> 00:39:52.430
How do you guys
574
00:39:52.985 --> 00:39:55.725
aim to solve that or mitigate it?
575
00:39:56.585 --> 00:39:57.225
576
00:39:57.865 --> 00:39:59.245
as the opening
577
00:39:59.545 --> 00:40:00.045
side,
578
00:40:00.745 --> 00:40:01.965
to our customers,
579
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:06.420
managing inbound liquidity for them is the easier side.
580
00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:10.160
Usually, the problem we have is, like, people start,
581
00:40:11.575 --> 00:40:15.035
running a node. They open a channel. They have only outbound,
582
00:40:15.575 --> 00:40:16.795
and they need inbound.
583
00:40:17.815 --> 00:40:23.760
Since we will be the opening side that is the first channel. Of course, people are free to open all the channels, but
584
00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:25.440
we want to guarantee
585
00:40:25.740 --> 00:40:26.240
the
586
00:40:26.700 --> 00:40:30.795
the users that the channel that we have, we are money with us,
587
00:40:31.195 --> 00:40:33.295
will be monitored. And every time
588
00:40:33.755 --> 00:40:35.135
they will be missing liquidity,
589
00:40:35.435 --> 00:40:36.735
we'll be just adding,
590
00:40:37.275 --> 00:40:40.510
I don't know, a new channel or some kind of rebalance or whatever.
591
00:40:42.490 --> 00:40:49.845
592
00:40:50.225 --> 00:40:50.805
to them.
593
00:40:51.265 --> 00:40:51.765
594
00:40:52.305 --> 00:41:05.800
And that that that's the that's probably the biggest part of the work because, like, making the device and installing the same stuff as we we are used to install on our other boxes is is the easy side. But the complicated part is,
595
00:41:07.035 --> 00:41:08.815
learning ourselves and understanding
596
00:41:09.995 --> 00:41:12.495
how and when to do that.
597
00:41:15.410 --> 00:41:23.914
For example, like, we'll probably have some very small transactions on some nodes and some average or big on others. How do we handle that?
598
00:41:25.494 --> 00:41:26.954
Do we, like, make some
599
00:41:27.414 --> 00:41:28.714
assumptions in advance,
600
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.820
asking people how we what is your, like, average transaction size?
601
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.714
I don't know. That that's all the all the questions we have to answer.
602
00:41:40.095 --> 00:41:41.795
603
00:41:42.895 --> 00:41:44.194
practice with this,
604
00:41:44.895 --> 00:41:47.220
running the nodes behind Sphinx. Right?
605
00:41:48.740 --> 00:41:54.440
606
00:41:55.474 --> 00:41:58.295
Because for every message you send, you receive a confirmation,
607
00:41:58.595 --> 00:42:00.055
which gives you money back.
608
00:42:01.635 --> 00:42:07.820
So if you don't receive, like, any donations or any boost, you basically your balance will basically never move.
609
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:21.735
It's just going back and forth. Yeah. It's just going back and forth with if you're using managed nodes with 0 fees. If you're running some through some public routing nodes, it can be much more than 0 fees on each. So
610
00:42:22.339 --> 00:42:22.839
yeah.
611
00:42:24.579 --> 00:42:29.319
Yeah. And we are running multiple stores as well for ourselves and for other people. So we
612
00:42:29.700 --> 00:42:30.520
we we
613
00:42:31.265 --> 00:42:38.580
we see how it how it works. Like, we we actually sold 1 Dojo with a Lightning transaction the other day. Like,
614
00:42:38.980 --> 00:42:42.360
I've seen the transaction on the store. Wait. A full model Dojo?
615
00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:43.320
Yeah.
616
00:42:44.100 --> 00:42:45.960
617
00:42:46.714 --> 00:42:48.095
618
00:42:48.395 --> 00:42:49.934
in one lightning transaction.
619
00:42:50.395 --> 00:42:52.175
620
00:42:54.474 --> 00:42:56.540
621
00:42:57.180 --> 00:43:06.685
Don't remember the exact amount, but I I I spent, like, half an hour looking at the on chain wallet trying to find the payment and couldn't find it. And then I said, gosh. Maybe it's lightning.
622
00:43:09.465 --> 00:43:22.619
623
00:43:24.125 --> 00:43:27.505
on your cloud infrastructure rather than actually having a piece of hardware?
624
00:43:29.005 --> 00:43:30.385
625
00:43:30.765 --> 00:43:40.079
depends on what's your, like, risk assessment of your local jurisdiction and the jurisdiction we're hosting the the normal clouds in.
626
00:43:41.555 --> 00:43:44.295
My assumption is really that at some point,
627
00:43:45.315 --> 00:43:48.935
if they really want to, they can qualify any type of hosting
628
00:43:49.235 --> 00:43:49.895
as custodian.
629
00:43:53.220 --> 00:43:58.920
So if if the user or the server is in a jurisdiction where that can happen,
630
00:43:59.435 --> 00:44:01.535
I would rather advise to
631
00:44:02.155 --> 00:44:04.015
to self host the lightning part.
632
00:44:05.275 --> 00:44:09.480
633
00:44:10.020 --> 00:44:11.320
Yeah. Then it's never
634
00:44:12.020 --> 00:44:14.120
635
00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:16.520
636
00:44:16.845 --> 00:44:20.865
just NautleCloud by itself or something like Voltage, which offers
637
00:44:21.645 --> 00:44:22.705
cloud LND,
638
00:44:25.740 --> 00:44:27.600
The keys are in are encrypted,
639
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:33.520
but there's still a element of trust there. Right? There's a large element of trust there that
640
00:44:34.765 --> 00:44:35.825
that you could then
641
00:44:36.684 --> 00:44:38.785
steal funds or compromise funds?
642
00:44:40.444 --> 00:44:40.944
643
00:44:41.369 --> 00:44:41.869
increasingly
644
00:44:42.330 --> 00:44:42.830
hard,
645
00:44:43.369 --> 00:44:43.869
but
646
00:44:44.250 --> 00:44:46.750
I would say with enough willpower,
647
00:44:47.849 --> 00:44:48.670
it's impossible.
648
00:44:50.225 --> 00:44:54.165
649
00:44:54.625 --> 00:44:59.445
hardware that the user controls. So you can't do that step, but you can still do the man in the middle step.
650
00:44:59.950 --> 00:45:00.450
651
00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:02.130
652
00:45:04.190 --> 00:45:06.130
So if I if I have the Nautilito
653
00:45:06.590 --> 00:45:09.330
in my hand, I open it up, what's inside the Nautilito?
654
00:45:10.655 --> 00:45:11.795
Are you sharing that?
655
00:45:14.015 --> 00:45:19.140
656
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:19.940
still,
657
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.940
try we are still working with both from the same company, which is Russia
658
00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:28.525
in China. And, the Rock Pi s is basically
659
00:45:29.465 --> 00:45:32.765
what the new Raspberry Pi 0 2 is,
660
00:45:33.990 --> 00:45:36.410
except it exists for 3 or 4 years already.
661
00:45:36.870 --> 00:45:39.210
So it has half of gig of RAM
662
00:45:40.390 --> 00:45:42.490
and 4 64 bit cores.
663
00:45:44.535 --> 00:45:47.435
And then the usual Internet, SD card,
664
00:45:48.135 --> 00:45:48.875
Wi Fi.
665
00:45:51.120 --> 00:45:51.620
And
666
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:58.580
as I understand it, I haven't tried it yet, but the hardware should allow us to make a computer
667
00:45:58.880 --> 00:45:59.780
I'm the
668
00:46:00.285 --> 00:46:00.785
networkless
669
00:46:01.165 --> 00:46:03.025
setup in the in the sense that,
670
00:46:03.965 --> 00:46:14.050
you could connect your computer straight to the device to set up the Wi Fi parameters and such. So you would not even have to connect it to a wired network the first time,
671
00:46:15.230 --> 00:46:16.690
which in some places,
672
00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:19.090
can be good.
673
00:46:19.654 --> 00:46:20.795
674
00:46:21.095 --> 00:46:24.634
the not elite directly to the computer, what, with an Ethernet cable?
675
00:46:25.414 --> 00:46:27.035
676
00:46:27.414 --> 00:46:32.020
So USB, and it it shows up the same as an Android phone,
677
00:46:33.520 --> 00:46:42.895
using the ADB protocol. So we could make a small app using the ADB protocol, like, to to set up the basic parameters on the device, like passwords, Wi Fi, and so
678
00:46:43.195 --> 00:46:52.390
on. Interesting. And then you just unplug it from your computer, you plug it into the power adapter instead, and, and that's it. You're good to go. And then it connects to Wi Fi. Yeah.
679
00:46:52.849 --> 00:46:54.710
680
00:46:55.905 --> 00:46:56.945
Because couldn't you
681
00:46:57.345 --> 00:47:02.085
682
00:47:03.240 --> 00:47:12.700
3 port on it to connect the box, and then I need to find its name on the network. And half of the times, it doesn't work because routers
683
00:47:13.305 --> 00:47:17.085
684
00:47:17.705 --> 00:47:18.205
685
00:47:19.465 --> 00:47:28.125
686
00:47:28.685 --> 00:47:29.185
687
00:47:29.485 --> 00:47:31.745
these boards don't exist without radios.
688
00:47:32.605 --> 00:47:39.360
689
00:47:40.540 --> 00:47:42.560
690
00:47:44.165 --> 00:47:44.665
Right.
691
00:47:45.605 --> 00:47:46.105
692
00:47:46.485 --> 00:47:48.105
on that note, is there any
693
00:47:48.805 --> 00:47:54.290
did you give any thought to actually putting, you know, a SIM card slot on it so you didn't need a mobile phone hotspot?
694
00:47:56.350 --> 00:47:59.650
695
00:48:00.735 --> 00:48:05.555
use a USB modem a GSM modem in it, like 3g, 4g modem.
696
00:48:07.055 --> 00:48:10.115
697
00:48:11.309 --> 00:48:12.130
698
00:48:13.790 --> 00:48:17.170
699
00:48:17.470 --> 00:48:22.135
700
00:48:22.675 --> 00:48:24.275
701
00:48:24.755 --> 00:48:29.330
I mean, necessarily build it in if if you can either use a mobile hotspot or
702
00:48:30.190 --> 00:48:30.690
a
703
00:48:31.070 --> 00:48:31.970
USB modem
704
00:48:32.350 --> 00:48:36.815
705
00:48:38.255 --> 00:48:38.755
Cool.
706
00:48:39.135 --> 00:48:41.075
And and on the other side of the spectrum,
707
00:48:41.375 --> 00:48:47.119
if you add a small additional board inside, it can be powered with power over Ethernet.
708
00:48:48.540 --> 00:48:52.315
So in a totally different setup, if you want to host, like, a farm of
709
00:48:52.795 --> 00:48:53.295
40,
710
00:48:54.875 --> 00:48:55.775
in some place,
711
00:48:56.155 --> 00:49:03.040
you could just buy a power of return network switch and plug them directly into the network switch and don't use any external power
712
00:49:03.500 --> 00:49:04.960
713
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:09.120
I like that idea.
714
00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:13.435
I don't know how many people are gonna use it. Data center. Oh.
715
00:49:14.215 --> 00:49:14.715
But
716
00:49:15.095 --> 00:49:16.855
but, like, if you wanted to set why
717
00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:18.750
I I mean, I guess,
718
00:49:19.210 --> 00:49:20.030
that's interesting.
719
00:49:20.650 --> 00:49:26.555
Well, how do you how, what kind of use case would that end up? Like, how would you end up seeing a use case like that?
720
00:49:27.275 --> 00:49:33.214
721
00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:40.850
a data center ready version of the nodal boxes that we could just put in some big chassis and,
722
00:49:41.250 --> 00:49:44.865
have, like, 50 of them running in the space of 1 server.
723
00:49:46.285 --> 00:49:49.185
So I'm bringing this kind of application, like, still hosted,
724
00:49:49.885 --> 00:49:51.530
but dedicated hardware for each
725
00:49:54.090 --> 00:49:55.630
each user. Yeah. Do you remember
726
00:49:56.890 --> 00:49:58.910
727
00:50:00.795 --> 00:50:04.415
they were US based. They had the over the air, TV antennas
728
00:50:05.115 --> 00:50:05.615
729
00:50:05.994 --> 00:50:08.585
730
00:50:09.510 --> 00:50:11.930
Yeah. But they, like, got around, like, the regulations
731
00:50:12.230 --> 00:50:13.130
about streaming,
732
00:50:13.990 --> 00:50:14.970
network TV
733
00:50:15.670 --> 00:50:18.089
because each person had their own
734
00:50:18.765 --> 00:50:19.505
over the air
735
00:50:19.885 --> 00:50:29.089
736
00:50:30.030 --> 00:50:32.530
the same as having the receiver at home.
737
00:50:32.990 --> 00:50:36.665
738
00:50:37.765 --> 00:50:42.265
They were, like, the hottest tech company for, like, 3 months, and then everything went to shit.
739
00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:49.800
So there's a bunch of freaks out here that are wondering. I'm I mean, I imagine that this is where my head would go.
740
00:50:50.260 --> 00:50:55.464
So, I mean, the the the product very much to me seems like it's geared towards,
741
00:50:56.085 --> 00:50:58.585
an end user that's trying to receive payments.
742
00:50:59.930 --> 00:51:02.110
Do you think the hardware is, like, powerful enough
743
00:51:02.410 --> 00:51:08.030
or even well suited for someone who wants to run, like, a always on routing node?
744
00:51:11.005 --> 00:51:12.145
745
00:51:13.565 --> 00:51:15.665
746
00:51:16.530 --> 00:51:17.010
747
00:51:17.730 --> 00:51:20.550
it's a device suited to generate,
748
00:51:22.370 --> 00:51:24.870
a few invoices per minute, probably.
749
00:51:26.825 --> 00:51:33.085
So, I mean, yes, you could use it as a routing node, but you will not route, like, some
750
00:51:33.465 --> 00:51:35.510
big quantity of transaction on it.
751
00:51:37.350 --> 00:51:38.970
752
00:51:39.510 --> 00:51:40.570
Processing power?
753
00:51:42.984 --> 00:51:46.205
754
00:51:46.825 --> 00:51:48.445
on the device because,
755
00:51:49.705 --> 00:51:51.885
basically, to run, it has to swap.
756
00:51:54.549 --> 00:51:55.049
And,
757
00:51:55.990 --> 00:51:56.809
if if
758
00:51:57.589 --> 00:51:59.615
I mean, you you can afford when you're,
759
00:52:00.415 --> 00:52:05.555
a merchant in your physical store and it takes 2 seconds to generate an invoice. That's okay.
760
00:52:06.494 --> 00:52:12.800
But when you're routing, that's a different story. It will penalize your node. Like, you will not get a good score and so on. So, yeah, I
761
00:52:13.819 --> 00:52:15.680
I I would not advise,
762
00:52:16.780 --> 00:52:17.599
doing that,
763
00:52:17.980 --> 00:52:18.480
probably.
764
00:52:19.265 --> 00:52:19.925
I mean,
765
00:52:20.385 --> 00:52:21.685
someone has to test.
766
00:52:22.465 --> 00:52:25.605
767
00:52:27.585 --> 00:52:27.825
The
768
00:52:34.910 --> 00:52:35.410
channels
769
00:52:36.190 --> 00:52:36.930
open with people that I mean, we we hear, like, trust issues there if you have
770
00:52:37.595 --> 00:52:42.815
channels open with people that I mean, we we hear Lightning devs say this all the time,
771
00:52:43.515 --> 00:52:45.535
just with any old Lightning nodes,
772
00:52:46.730 --> 00:52:48.190
full Lightning Nodes,
773
00:52:49.290 --> 00:52:51.870
with Bitcoin Core backing them locally,
774
00:52:52.250 --> 00:52:55.950
that you should not have channels open with people you don't trust explicitly,
775
00:52:58.555 --> 00:53:00.175
even though we all do anyway.
776
00:53:02.635 --> 00:53:03.535
In that case,
777
00:53:04.610 --> 00:53:13.830
our nodes are able to see if they're online or if they're using a watch tower and they're offline. They're able to see if there is malicious behavior from a channel partner.
778
00:53:14.855 --> 00:53:26.810
The fact that with Neutrino, you mentioned this thing where you're not seeing the closed transaction until after the channel times out, Is there an additional trust issue there with having channels open with people that,
779
00:53:28.810 --> 00:53:29.630
could be malicious?
780
00:53:33.265 --> 00:53:34.645
781
00:53:35.025 --> 00:53:37.845
I would say no, but I'm not 100%
782
00:53:38.305 --> 00:53:39.445
sure. I'm
783
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:41.280
too stupid to ask.
784
00:53:42.460 --> 00:53:43.760
785
00:53:45.820 --> 00:53:55.234
I mean, so you're saying it's not seeing the closed channel transaction. Would it would it would it see me broadcast a bad state if I was connected with the if I had a channel open with the Nautilita?
786
00:53:55.855 --> 00:53:57.234
It would see that part.
787
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:01.140
788
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:02.820
like, in labs.
789
00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:09.235
790
00:54:10.095 --> 00:54:11.475
But I guess, in this case,
791
00:54:11.775 --> 00:54:13.875
most merchants that are using Nautilito
792
00:54:14.175 --> 00:54:14.915
will be
793
00:54:15.839 --> 00:54:18.900
their channel capacity will be coming from your notes.
794
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.835
795
00:54:24.395 --> 00:54:32.015
which is kind of the point of the thing. And, also, I just made a note at the same time, I include watch towers in the service package.
796
00:54:32.569 --> 00:54:33.150
797
00:54:35.210 --> 00:54:35.849
So the
798
00:54:36.809 --> 00:54:38.109
and, I mean, I guess
799
00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:40.829
I I still think this concept of
800
00:54:42.244 --> 00:54:44.424
of of, like, one person in the community
801
00:54:44.885 --> 00:54:45.385
running
802
00:54:46.164 --> 00:54:46.664
a
803
00:54:48.484 --> 00:54:49.845
a proper node, a a
804
00:54:50.670 --> 00:54:58.130
I guess we need, like, new terminology, but, like, a a a completely full node and then them acting as a backing infrastructure.
805
00:54:58.895 --> 00:55:00.675
Then in that case, they'd be trusting
806
00:55:01.295 --> 00:55:02.675
that person who's running,
807
00:55:04.095 --> 00:55:10.020
like, a Nautil a Nautil Dojo or a Raspberry Blitz or something. Can also be providing the Nutrino,
808
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.460
809
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.580
810
00:55:17.184 --> 00:55:18.885
and then instead of using NautilCloud,
811
00:55:20.464 --> 00:55:23.444
their uncle Jim could be using, like, a Raspberry Blitz or something.
812
00:55:24.065 --> 00:55:24.885
813
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:28.900
814
00:55:30.500 --> 00:55:33.240
like it is. It's actually you need someone to run infrastructure
815
00:55:33.620 --> 00:55:34.280
for you
816
00:55:34.715 --> 00:55:36.175
because you want high availability.
817
00:55:36.635 --> 00:55:37.375
You want
818
00:55:37.835 --> 00:55:40.815
to be able to have some kind of trust in the setup, etcetera.
819
00:55:41.755 --> 00:55:43.135
You also need someone
820
00:55:43.560 --> 00:55:44.540
to provide liquidity.
821
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:51.420
It might be the same person, but it might be someone else behind it that you don't see because it's abstracted from the user's perspective.
822
00:55:53.194 --> 00:55:57.694
But these are the type of services that you see today in the fiat world.
823
00:55:57.994 --> 00:56:00.015
They're just not done in Bitcoin yet.
824
00:56:00.380 --> 00:56:04.880
This is maybe one step further in figuring out the right model of
825
00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:06.799
who runs really infrastructure,
826
00:56:07.180 --> 00:56:09.119
who runs services, who provides
827
00:56:10.615 --> 00:56:13.755
liquidity, who provides other components of,
828
00:56:14.375 --> 00:56:17.035
you know, the the end user experiments, basically.
829
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:18.940
830
00:56:20.680 --> 00:56:21.180
So
831
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:29.305
832
00:56:29.605 --> 00:56:30.805
that maybe is not,
833
00:56:32.645 --> 00:56:35.625
as easily understandable for people is, like,
834
00:56:35.950 --> 00:56:36.770
if you have
835
00:56:37.150 --> 00:56:37.650
customers,
836
00:56:38.830 --> 00:56:40.210
merchants, that say, okay.
837
00:56:40.590 --> 00:56:44.690
I don't know how to do it. I don't necessarily wanna do it. It's not my main business.
838
00:56:44.990 --> 00:56:48.275
So I just wanna make sure it's running 247.
839
00:56:49.454 --> 00:56:52.194
I don't think there's a single player today
840
00:56:53.380 --> 00:56:55.160
that does it with a guaranteed,
841
00:56:55.700 --> 00:56:56.920
you know, uptime,
842
00:56:58.340 --> 00:57:00.600
channel management, liquidity, etcetera.
843
00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:05.085
But within a year or so, you'll have those people doing it for you.
844
00:57:07.545 --> 00:57:10.045
So so people need to find a way to do it
845
00:57:10.579 --> 00:57:19.880
because that's what's expected from the user perspective. And and now you have new users who who don't wanna go into the details as much as we do maybe,
846
00:57:20.795 --> 00:57:23.375
that that will want some kind of professional setup.
847
00:57:24.315 --> 00:57:28.255
848
00:57:28.809 --> 00:57:29.309
Obviously,
849
00:57:29.609 --> 00:57:31.789
that kind of uptime, that kind of infrastructure,
850
00:57:32.809 --> 00:57:34.190
that kind of channel management
851
00:57:35.289 --> 00:57:37.869
is not free. How do you perceive
852
00:57:38.635 --> 00:57:45.055
that model going forward? Is that, like, going to be a subscription model? Is that a yearly subscription model? Like, how does that look?
853
00:57:46.190 --> 00:57:53.970
854
00:57:54.505 --> 00:57:55.005
subsidized
855
00:57:55.385 --> 00:58:00.925
by paying more for the service and not paying the device. That that's the baseline we we have now.
856
00:58:03.079 --> 00:58:05.339
857
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:07.260
with no money upfront,
858
00:58:07.560 --> 00:58:09.240
no money down, and then they're
859
00:58:10.454 --> 00:58:14.155
it's subsidized by a subscription offering. Sure. Yeah.
860
00:58:15.734 --> 00:58:19.515
And you're not gonna tell us the prices of that at all right now?
861
00:58:20.410 --> 00:58:24.190
862
00:58:26.650 --> 00:58:30.055
Awesome. We we we also, like, at the
863
00:58:30.355 --> 00:58:36.775
at the step of arguing if we should go with the most expensive SD card or the second most expensive one.
864
00:58:37.720 --> 00:58:38.940
Because also the
865
00:58:39.240 --> 00:58:40.859
even the SD card we
866
00:58:41.160 --> 00:58:45.079
are trying to include in this device didn't exist 6 months ago. So
867
00:58:47.035 --> 00:58:49.215
868
00:58:50.075 --> 00:58:51.375
the keys to lightning
869
00:58:51.755 --> 00:58:54.975
your lightning keys. What else is that SD card used for?
870
00:58:56.830 --> 00:59:03.470
871
00:59:04.345 --> 00:59:07.404
You will still have the option of using the USB port for
872
00:59:08.025 --> 00:59:10.045
a static channel backup drive,
873
00:59:10.424 --> 00:59:11.805
like a cheap thumbstick.
874
00:59:13.790 --> 00:59:14.930
But, yeah, we
875
00:59:16.190 --> 00:59:21.090
I I don't want to build a device that will stop working after 6 months or 1 year.
876
00:59:21.705 --> 00:59:25.725
So the minimum we expect from the SD card is is 3 years.
877
00:59:27.465 --> 00:59:31.900
And the ones we are testing now come with a 5 year guarantee,
878
00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:34.540
and, like, a massive,
879
00:59:36.040 --> 00:59:37.339
endurance numbers.
880
00:59:38.005 --> 00:59:44.665
881
00:59:45.510 --> 00:59:47.609
882
00:59:47.990 --> 00:59:48.490
ages
883
00:59:48.790 --> 00:59:50.089
when you write on it.
884
00:59:51.190 --> 00:59:56.865
SD cards by the size I mean, micro SD cards by the size include obviously less
885
00:59:57.165 --> 01:00:00.225
extra memory than a big SSD drive.
886
01:00:02.680 --> 01:00:09.820
So cards with enough extra memory to cover for the failed cells inside the memory are
887
01:00:10.435 --> 01:00:11.495
way more expensive.
888
01:00:12.995 --> 01:00:13.495
And,
889
01:00:14.195 --> 01:00:15.895
yeah, that that that that's
890
01:00:16.195 --> 01:00:20.510
one one thing we, like, waited to see on the market. And,
891
01:00:21.130 --> 01:00:21.790
I mean,
892
01:00:22.569 --> 01:00:23.470
not a secret,
893
01:00:24.250 --> 01:00:27.869
because it will be part of our main specifications for this device.
894
01:00:28.635 --> 01:00:29.135
SanDisk
895
01:00:29.515 --> 01:00:31.135
came up with this new
896
01:00:31.595 --> 01:00:36.415
cards called, high endurance and max endurance, which are used for video surveillance,
897
01:00:37.680 --> 01:00:39.059
meaning constant writing.
898
01:00:40.319 --> 01:00:42.579
And this is what we are planning to use.
899
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:48.075
900
01:00:48.455 --> 01:00:52.555
or if you're using a lightning node with an SSD and if that SSD fails,
901
01:00:55.730 --> 01:01:01.910
all all your your your channel state, all of that is is lost, and you will lose your funds
902
01:01:02.645 --> 01:01:05.385
if you don't have a static channel backup.
903
01:01:05.845 --> 01:01:09.465
Now the static channel backup, though, if you restore from that backup,
904
01:01:10.245 --> 01:01:11.545
you lose your channels.
905
01:01:12.630 --> 01:01:16.730
Yeah. It still sucks. I mean, to be The funds are restored on chain.
906
01:01:17.510 --> 01:01:32.200
Right? You get your funds on chain, but you get hit with the on chain fees to do that. And then you have to hit And it's a very long process. So with the Nautil Dojo, one strategy around that is that you have 2 SSDs in there
907
01:01:32.500 --> 01:01:35.880
that are operating in a, basically, like, a quasi RAID
908
01:01:36.805 --> 01:01:44.105
situation where one is backing up the other. So if something happens to one of the if one of the SSDs fails or gets corrupted, the other one,
909
01:01:44.750 --> 01:01:47.490
is there ready to go without a static channel backup.
910
01:01:48.030 --> 01:01:49.890
911
01:01:50.430 --> 01:01:51.790
mirroring red. So the
912
01:01:52.565 --> 01:01:55.865
anything written to the SSD won't be acknowledged
913
01:01:56.245 --> 01:01:59.145
by the system if it's not written to both drives.
914
01:01:59.765 --> 01:02:00.265
915
01:02:01.125 --> 01:02:03.289
okay. So in that situation,
916
01:02:04.069 --> 01:02:09.130
if I buy a Nautil Dojo and I have 2 SSDs in there because that's how Nautil Dojo comes,
917
01:02:10.085 --> 01:02:21.329
aren't they both getting hit with the same amount of rights at the same time? Wouldn't there be a situation where they both fail around the same time? Or is it just they They do. They do. So the the idea
918
01:02:21.710 --> 01:02:22.210
919
01:02:23.390 --> 01:02:23.890
it's
920
01:02:24.430 --> 01:02:28.845
not very urgent because we we are, like, monitoring the
921
01:02:29.145 --> 01:02:32.765
the wear of SSDs on our test devices, which are much
922
01:02:33.065 --> 01:02:34.125
faster than
923
01:02:34.585 --> 01:02:36.030
usual users ones.
924
01:02:38.430 --> 01:02:41.570
But at some point, you will see in the UI,
925
01:02:42.910 --> 01:02:44.050
remaining lifetime
926
01:02:45.875 --> 01:02:46.454
estimation in percent
927
01:02:48.275 --> 01:02:54.980
for your SSDs. And what what you will do is, like, when you reach, I don't know, 30 percent or 20%,
928
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:58.980
you will replace 1, rebuild the data,
929
01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:02.420
on the first one, and then replace the second one.
930
01:03:03.435 --> 01:03:04.895
931
01:03:05.435 --> 01:03:11.750
932
01:03:12.210 --> 01:03:14.390
restore the red on the bigger one,
933
01:03:14.770 --> 01:03:22.585
then replace the second one with a bigger one and, expand the the partitions on that. So it's, like, more for, like, a graceful migration?
934
01:03:23.285 --> 01:03:23.785
Yeah.
935
01:03:24.645 --> 01:03:25.145
936
01:03:25.445 --> 01:03:26.985
couldn't you, with, like, the Nautilito,
937
01:03:27.285 --> 01:03:35.170
either add, like, a second SD card slot or, like, a USB drive that you plug in? Like, if if if the SD card's 64 gigs,
938
01:03:35.950 --> 01:03:41.825
couldn't I, like, plug in a 64 gig thumb drive and have the similar result there?
939
01:03:45.650 --> 01:03:46.150
940
01:03:46.450 --> 01:03:53.109
that that's actually something we looked into at some point for having, like, a red for only the LND directory
941
01:03:53.410 --> 01:03:54.549
of any node
942
01:03:55.194 --> 01:03:58.494
between the internal SSD and an external thumb drive.
943
01:03:58.875 --> 01:04:02.895
But we figured that, actually, thumb drives are made for,
944
01:04:03.289 --> 01:04:04.109
like, very,
945
01:04:05.130 --> 01:04:06.349
infrequent use,
946
01:04:07.369 --> 01:04:10.269
and they die much faster than any SD or SSD.
947
01:04:12.095 --> 01:04:12.595
So
948
01:04:12.895 --> 01:04:14.275
you could, but
949
01:04:15.135 --> 01:04:18.095
you wouldn't want to do that. And in addition, it's,
950
01:04:21.150 --> 01:04:22.609
I wouldn't say maybe 100%,
951
01:04:22.910 --> 01:04:23.650
but 99%
952
01:04:24.190 --> 01:04:26.369
of thumb drives don't report any,
953
01:04:27.470 --> 01:04:29.410
statistics about their internal state.
954
01:04:30.474 --> 01:04:32.394
So it would be very hard to detect the fail
955
01:04:32.954 --> 01:04:34.174
an upcoming failure.
956
01:04:34.635 --> 01:04:36.894
957
01:04:37.540 --> 01:04:39.880
like, USB SD card reader
958
01:04:40.339 --> 01:04:40.839
attached
959
01:04:41.619 --> 01:04:47.585
960
01:04:48.925 --> 01:05:02.660
961
01:05:03.745 --> 01:05:06.565
962
01:05:08.145 --> 01:05:10.565
That that's probably something we could test.
963
01:05:10.940 --> 01:05:13.600
964
01:05:16.220 --> 01:05:23.845
chip that came with 2 SD card slots, then that would be way more practical than using that USB port. That's the issue. Yeah.
965
01:05:24.625 --> 01:05:25.125
966
01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:27.019
By the way, one
967
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:33.099
very little known thing, although I probably mentioned it twice or 3 times already on different,
968
01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:33.980
shops.
969
01:05:34.925 --> 01:05:36.625
If you have another one,
970
01:05:37.485 --> 01:05:37.985
with
971
01:05:38.685 --> 01:05:39.345
this encryption,
972
01:05:39.725 --> 01:05:40.225
which
973
01:05:40.765 --> 01:05:41.590
was, like,
974
01:05:42.070 --> 01:05:45.130
starting probably a year ago now or maybe a little longer.
975
01:05:45.670 --> 01:05:49.590
It actually supports red mirroring. You can add an external drive and,
976
01:05:50.275 --> 01:05:52.775
with a few comments, enable the mirroring.
977
01:05:56.915 --> 01:05:59.095
978
01:05:59.490 --> 01:06:01.750
979
01:06:02.369 --> 01:06:07.590
a red mirroring of only one drive configured. So if you add the second drive, it will just,
980
01:06:08.345 --> 01:06:10.525
stupidly replicate on the external drive.
981
01:06:10.905 --> 01:06:13.645
982
01:06:14.025 --> 01:06:16.365
983
01:06:16.859 --> 01:06:17.599
984
01:06:20.380 --> 01:06:20.880
Cool.
985
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:27.835
I have another question. So there's a lot of comments here. I mean, it's the the obvious thing when you see
986
01:06:28.215 --> 01:06:32.475
when you see this not a lead to, like, the first thing everyone thinks about is mesh.
987
01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:35.200
You know, you see this little device.
988
01:06:35.660 --> 01:06:37.680
I'm imagining it in, like, a flea market.
989
01:06:37.980 --> 01:06:38.960
They're all, like,
990
01:06:39.955 --> 01:06:46.295
daisy chained off of each other, and then they they hit the, you know, whatever the main server is, whether that's a,
991
01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:54.040
a, you know, a Nautil Dojo held locally or if that's a Nautil cloud or something. Like, what are your thoughts on mesh? Like, is that
992
01:06:55.125 --> 01:06:59.785
something that's, you know, in the pipeline in the future? Would you need different hardware to do it?
993
01:07:01.900 --> 01:07:06.320
994
01:07:07.100 --> 01:07:08.880
mesh or even the Gothena,
995
01:07:09.500 --> 01:07:10.800
supports to the model.
996
01:07:13.184 --> 01:07:13.684
What
997
01:07:14.464 --> 01:07:22.760
most people probably don't realize is that with any kind of ISM band mesh radio, you get very little air time. You get, like, 10 seconds
998
01:07:23.060 --> 01:07:27.320
per hour maybe of air time. So that's very, very small data.
999
01:07:30.340 --> 01:07:30.840
It's
1000
01:07:31.415 --> 01:07:33.355
basically enough to send a few messages
1001
01:07:33.655 --> 01:07:38.315
or send some transactions, but you would not, like, stream blocks over that.
1002
01:07:39.660 --> 01:07:41.760
So you need at least one other
1003
01:07:42.140 --> 01:07:45.359
type of radio, and for that, Blockstream satellite is perfect
1004
01:07:46.855 --> 01:07:49.835
to to receive the blocks. That that's like a minimum.
1005
01:07:52.135 --> 01:07:54.635
Mesh alone won't solve any problem unless
1006
01:07:54.940 --> 01:07:58.720
you are just remote controlling a node which is hosted elsewhere.
1007
01:08:01.420 --> 01:08:01.920
1008
01:08:02.380 --> 01:08:03.520
Yeah. I mean, I guess
1009
01:08:04.235 --> 01:08:08.575
if you're in, like, that flea market situation anyway, all you need is
1010
01:08:10.235 --> 01:08:16.240
something that's broadcasting Wi Fi in the area, and then all those not all those can connect to it anyway.
1011
01:08:16.540 --> 01:08:24.695
And that could be something that's mesh enabled or not. It doesn't really matter. You could imagine hooking up, like, the the central model dojo with some
1012
01:08:26.114 --> 01:08:26.614
1013
01:08:27.075 --> 01:08:44.505
1014
01:08:45.845 --> 01:08:46.505
Got it.
1015
01:08:47.940 --> 01:08:52.520
So, I mean, we talked about earlier in the show, I mean, before we started recording,
1016
01:08:54.260 --> 01:08:56.039
that we're gonna try and keep this,
1017
01:08:57.095 --> 01:09:02.075
on the tighter side. I mean, I have my lady in the other room. I can hear her, like, unpacking boxes,
1018
01:09:03.015 --> 01:09:10.679
probably a little bit angry at me that I am not unpacking boxes as well. My computer is literally sitting on boxes right now, and I'm using a secondary mic,
1019
01:09:11.219 --> 01:09:14.280
to do this show. I got my dog passed out next to me
1020
01:09:14.665 --> 01:09:16.364
on an air bed.
1021
01:09:17.225 --> 01:09:24.350
Do you think we've missed anything, guys, that you wanna cover here in terms of the future of the Nodle and the Nodle Ditto? I
1022
01:09:25.450 --> 01:09:26.190
1023
01:09:26.490 --> 01:09:36.115
John said in the chart. It's, like the the parent child model. I think that's a very good, picture of it. Like, the parent being the full node and the and
1024
01:09:36.655 --> 01:09:39.475
the node details being child children on that node.
1025
01:09:41.440 --> 01:09:48.100
1026
01:09:49.094 --> 01:09:53.514
But I promise you next week, for both dispatch and rabbit hole,
1027
01:09:54.855 --> 01:09:59.750
I will have better audio quality. And my Internet here, though, is absolutely fantastic.
1028
01:10:01.250 --> 01:10:03.909
Some of the best Internet in the United States. So,
1029
01:10:05.145 --> 01:10:06.605
I'm doing that for you guys.
1030
01:10:07.145 --> 01:10:08.045
We got this.
1031
01:10:09.945 --> 01:10:12.284
Ask who you got? Final thoughts over there?
1032
01:10:14.040 --> 01:10:16.040
1033
01:10:16.440 --> 01:10:17.420
earlier that,
1034
01:10:18.679 --> 01:10:22.635
eventually, you'll have a lot of providers of of these type of solutions,
1035
01:10:23.335 --> 01:10:30.315
which is what you wanna see this what we wanna see. You wanna see a lot of hardware providers, a lot of cloud providers,
1036
01:10:30.615 --> 01:10:31.175
a lot of,
1037
01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:33.300
liquidity providers, etcetera.
1038
01:10:34.320 --> 01:10:37.460
And the trust models for everybody is gonna are gonna be different.
1039
01:10:38.400 --> 01:10:40.179
They have to be clear for the users.
1040
01:10:40.815 --> 01:10:43.395
That I think is really important to us
1041
01:10:44.255 --> 01:10:46.594
that people understand what they're getting into.
1042
01:10:47.135 --> 01:10:47.955
But, eventually,
1043
01:10:48.415 --> 01:10:56.389
if you choose services like that where you do rely on third parties to a certain extent, you have to understand where the risk is.
1044
01:10:56.985 --> 01:10:57.725
And also,
1045
01:10:58.345 --> 01:11:03.085
you know, the different providers that do, like, cloud infrastructure or or things like that that
1046
01:11:03.705 --> 01:11:06.685
sometimes you feel you'd like, you'd wanna move away from.
1047
01:11:08.010 --> 01:11:13.470
We believe there's a big difference between, like, running stuff with, like, corporate companies like, AWS
1048
01:11:14.570 --> 01:11:15.870
and these type of providers
1049
01:11:16.965 --> 01:11:18.025
versus owning
1050
01:11:19.125 --> 01:11:20.425
the hardware yourself.
1051
01:11:21.205 --> 01:11:23.785
And I don't think we necessarily make it clear,
1052
01:11:25.360 --> 01:11:28.580
but everything that we build in the cloud is on
1053
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:31.060
hardware that we own.
1054
01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:33.220
So we build stuff ourselves,
1055
01:11:33.885 --> 01:11:39.665
and, and we think that's something that could be acceptable for a lot of, a lot of customers.
1056
01:11:41.090 --> 01:11:43.750
1057
01:11:44.450 --> 01:11:45.190
5 years,
1058
01:11:46.290 --> 01:11:49.590
the majority of Bitcoin users will be using,
1059
01:11:52.025 --> 01:11:54.365
either custodial providers or,
1060
01:11:55.945 --> 01:11:56.605
you know,
1061
01:11:56.905 --> 01:12:00.090
nodes hosted on, like, an AWS or, like, a corporate cloud?
1062
01:12:01.030 --> 01:12:05.930
Like, is that a foregone conclusion, or are we gonna actually have a large amount of users,
1063
01:12:07.005 --> 01:12:14.945
1064
01:12:15.830 --> 01:12:18.570
Some are more private than others. Some are more accessible.
1065
01:12:19.990 --> 01:12:22.810
Some are probably hosted. Some are probably self hosted.
1066
01:12:24.105 --> 01:12:27.885
That's probably the mix that makes the most sense, at least for me.
1067
01:12:28.425 --> 01:12:28.925
And,
1068
01:12:30.580 --> 01:12:39.639
you know, availability is something that you don't necessarily want to manage all the time. At the same time, you don't want to give custody to to anyone else with Bitcoin.
1069
01:12:40.405 --> 01:12:42.665
So there's different trade offs that
1070
01:12:43.365 --> 01:12:44.745
probably, in my mind,
1071
01:12:45.045 --> 01:12:50.310
will require you to have several different setups and use all of them for different purposes.
1072
01:12:51.570 --> 01:12:57.270
1073
01:12:58.195 --> 01:13:01.095
1074
01:13:01.875 --> 01:13:02.695
Yeah. They
1075
01:13:05.140 --> 01:13:07.480
they don't really get what we're doing over here,
1076
01:13:07.780 --> 01:13:08.520
do they?
1077
01:13:09.540 --> 01:13:14.715
1078
01:13:15.255 --> 01:13:16.715
I'd like to see eventually,
1079
01:13:17.415 --> 01:13:18.795
Hit us. Us doing
1080
01:13:19.280 --> 01:13:19.780
is
1081
01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:24.500
when you do host services for people, if they're hosted
1082
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:27.300
and replicated in a lot of different places,
1083
01:13:28.175 --> 01:13:31.155
there is some kind of potential for you to offer,
1084
01:13:32.735 --> 01:13:34.755
jurisdictional arbitrage as a service.
1085
01:13:35.280 --> 01:13:35.780
And,
1086
01:13:36.400 --> 01:13:41.140
with the way the world is going, I think that is a very strong value proposition.
1087
01:13:42.240 --> 01:13:44.180
So, eventually, I'd like to see that happen.
1088
01:13:47.195 --> 01:13:48.735
1089
01:13:49.115 --> 01:13:52.655
different providers in different parts of the world so that even if there's
1090
01:13:53.115 --> 01:13:54.655
bad laws in one area?
1091
01:13:55.179 --> 01:13:57.440
1092
01:13:58.139 --> 01:13:59.520
poof, it's not there anymore.
1093
01:14:00.780 --> 01:14:04.639
1094
01:14:05.085 --> 01:14:08.305
basically having infrastructure hosted globally so
1095
01:14:08.685 --> 01:14:13.185
that within a certain provider, you get that, or are you talking about different companies?
1096
01:14:14.480 --> 01:14:18.400
1097
01:14:19.360 --> 01:14:20.180
a good business.
1098
01:14:21.074 --> 01:14:24.695
1099
01:14:25.235 --> 01:14:27.655
you have servers hosted in, let's say, Switzerland
1100
01:14:28.755 --> 01:14:29.255
and
1101
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:37.500
Paraguay, and then, like, if Switzerland passes a bad law, then all of a sudden those servers are wiped, but the Paraguay servers continue?
1102
01:14:37.935 --> 01:14:43.155
1103
01:14:44.495 --> 01:14:45.235
1104
01:14:46.380 --> 01:14:52.559
Well, guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I do appreciate your time. I appreciate all the work you've done in with Noddle.
1105
01:14:53.615 --> 01:14:56.115
I love the hardware that I use from you guys.
1106
01:14:56.895 --> 01:14:59.235
I've never had any issues with it.
1107
01:15:00.015 --> 01:15:01.990
My SSDs haven't failed yet.
1108
01:15:02.550 --> 01:15:06.250
You kinda got me a little bit worried when we were talking about SSD failures,
1109
01:15:06.630 --> 01:15:07.130
so
1110
01:15:08.870 --> 01:15:10.970
we'll we'll see how long that lasts.
1111
01:15:11.315 --> 01:15:17.895
But I do appreciate all the work you guys have done, and I I do consider you both very good friends. I hope to see you again soon in person.
1112
01:15:20.790 --> 01:15:23.050
Thank you. I appreciate you guys.
1113
01:15:23.590 --> 01:15:26.170
1114
01:15:26.710 --> 01:15:27.770
1115
01:15:29.485 --> 01:15:34.465
And a big thank you to the freaks who joined us. Thank you again for dealing with my so called potato
1116
01:15:34.844 --> 01:15:36.145
quality on my mic.
1117
01:15:37.630 --> 01:15:40.530
I do care about the quality of this show, and
1118
01:15:40.909 --> 01:15:42.050
I do care about
1119
01:15:42.989 --> 01:15:45.650
getting content to you guys that is actionable,
1120
01:15:46.625 --> 01:15:50.805
helpful, and informative on a weekly basis. So I will continue my best,
1121
01:15:51.425 --> 01:15:53.125
to try and improve on that front,
1122
01:15:54.980 --> 01:16:01.239
And that's part of why I moved. So I appreciate you all. I appreciate you, Kito. I appreciate you Asquoo. I appreciate you Freaks.
1123
01:16:01.940 --> 01:16:02.440
And
1124
01:16:03.325 --> 01:16:05.825
if you're interested in the Noddle, you can go to noddle.it.
1125
01:16:06.605 --> 01:16:07.745
That's nodl.it.
1126
01:16:11.350 --> 01:16:12.969
Until next time. Thank you, guys.
1127
01:16:15.110 --> 01:16:16.090
1128
01:17:30.015 --> 01:17:30.915
1129
01:17:31.855 --> 01:17:37.315
James Dean? Brooklyn's down to win a team, David Crockett, Peter Pan? Elvis Presley, Disneyland,
1130
01:17:37.695 --> 01:17:38.915
Bardo, Budapest,
1131
01:19:00.205 --> 01:19:00.705
say?
1132
01:19:19.775 --> 01:19:21.875
Punk rock. Baitin' Reagan, Palestine.
1133
01:19:22.255 --> 01:19:23.635
Terror on the airline.
1134
01:19:24.014 --> 01:19:26.594
Ayatollahs in Iran, Russians and Afghanistan.
1135
01:19:27.135 --> 01:19:27.910
We're the fortune
1136
01:20:24.410 --> 01:20:26.510
Cheers, freaks. I'll see you Thursday
1137
01:20:26.970 --> 01:20:28.590
for another rabbit hole recap,
1138
01:20:28.912 --> 01:20:31.732
and I'll see you Tuesday for another serial dispatch.
1139
01:20:32.192 --> 01:20:34.612
Love you all. Stay on Bold and Stack Sats.
