Dec. 1, 2021
CD46: improving your home bitcoin mining setup with @BigCohoo, @dfrumps, @RoninMiner, and @BtcBoulder
EPISODE: 46
BLOCK: 711998
PRICE: 1738 sats per dollar
TOPICS: securing the cheapest power, braiins os, negotiating with your power company, utilizing solar subsidies, asic resale value, efficiency, slush pool, mining pool centralization, hosted providers vs running it yourself
@BigCohoo: https://twitter.com/BigCohoo
@dfrumps: https://twitter.com/dfrumps
@RoninMiner: https://twitter.com/RoninMiner
@BtcBoulder: https://twitter.com/BtcBoulder
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00:00 - Introduction to cryptocurrency and Bitcoin
02:33 - The problem with inflation and collapsing economies
08:29 - Discussion on obtaining cheap power for mining
36:11 - Understanding the impact of distance and power facilities on power costs
43:30 - Explaining power purchase agreements and negotiating power rates
52:14 - Understanding different phases of electricity supply
01:08:05 - Optimizing mining efficiency with firmware
01:28:16 - Benefits and considerations of 3-phase power
01:38:39 - The benefits of using solar energy for mining
01:41:02 - The impact of government incentives on mining
01:44:33 - The potential of smart meters in managing energy consumption
02:31:38 - Final thoughts for the freaks
02:32:19 - Compass offering free hosting
02:32:55 - Appreciation and farewell
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:14:31 PM
Duration: 9191.262
Channels: 1
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The people buying cryptocurrency.
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The reason is really simple. Central banks have printed so much money that its
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value is plummeting. It's called inflation.
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So what is cryptocurrency?
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What is Bitcoin
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exactly?
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Well, we scoured the country for more than a year to find someone who could explain it to us, who really understood it, and who had skin in the game. Michael Sailor is the man we found. There's really no one better we've decided to talk to about this topic. Michael Sailor is an entrepreneur, a business executive. He's in 1,000,000,000 in Bitcoin, and he's worth listening to on the topic. By the way, his company just dropped more than $400,000,000
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on it this afternoon.
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We sat down for more than an hour with Michael Sailor for a genuinely fascinating episode of Tucker Carlson today. Here's a small part of it.
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The currency
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is to the economy
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what your blood is to your body,
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and economic energy or money is to the currency
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what oxygen is to your blood.
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So
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common sense says, if I keep sucking the oxygen out of the room, if I suck the oxygen out of the room, you're gonna either suffocate or freeze to death.
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And if I keep sucking the economic energy out of the currency,
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the economy collapses.
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In the extreme,
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you get ripped back to stone age barter. Right? When the money doesn't work anymore, I have to trade you cigarette
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or bullets.
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Right. And the problem with that is is
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the economy becomes a 1000000 times less efficient. Right? If you don't have money
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now how many countries in the world have a collapsed currency?
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66
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are dollarized.
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There's a 180
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about countries. There's a 130 floating currencies.
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All of them are weaker than the dollar.
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The US dollar is the world's reserve currency. The US dollar is expanding. It was expanding 10% a year for a decade, now expanding at 14% a year. It expanded 34%
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over the past 12 months.
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The dollar is weakening.
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Okay? It's like the auction is getting sucked out of the room. So, Tucker, if I told you the auction is getting sucked out of the room and there's an oxygen mask
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drops out of the ceiling over there, what would you do? Run for it. Yeah. Put the oxygen mask on.
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Bitcoin is the oxygen mask.
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The the idea of Bitcoin let let's let's move to the 3rd question. You've made the most compelling case I've ever heard for the need for something like Bitcoin.
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So you're saying just to make sure that everyone's faultless.
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The whole point of Bitcoin
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is to escape
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the inflation vortex that has consumed all these previous empires.
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The point of Bitcoin is to fix the money.
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And money is energy and energy is life. And if I keep sucking the energy out of the economy,
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I'm sucking the oxygen out of your system.
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Either under the best case, you perform poorly. Under the worst case, I suffocate you to death or freeze you to death.
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That's the problem.
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That's why that's why empires collapse.
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That's why economies collapse.
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You probably haven't seen a conversation about economics that interesting ever. We certainly have. And if you're wondering what is Bitcoin, what is crypto, or if you care about inflation, why are things suddenly more
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expensive?
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You need to watch that. It's over an hour long. Michael Saylor
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is his name. An amazing person. That's on Tucker Carlson today at foxnation.com.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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That clip you just heard was MicroStrategy
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CEO and founder,
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Michael Saylor, on Tucker Carlson's,
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Fox News Show,
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explaining Bitcoin to him.
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Take it as you will.
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Huge shout out to the Rider Dies who continue to support this show. You guys
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keep this show ad free, sponsor free, and focus purely on actionable Bitcoin discussion. I cannot thank you enough.
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The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites are Fountain Podcasts
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and Breeze.
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That's Breeze,
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b r e e z.
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You can search it in your favorite app store.
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All you have to do is
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search it'll dispatch,
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press that subscribe button, load it up with stats, and you can stream stats directly to my lightning node to support the show. You can also support the show at sidodispatch.com
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through lightning or through my pay nymph, my samurai pay nymph,
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which is Odell.
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Very easy to remember.
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So thank you all for supporting the show. Another huge shout out to the ride or die freaks who join us every week,
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in the live chat, which is accessible
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via Twitch, Twitter,
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or YouTube.
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You guys make this show special and unique. The questions you bring, the comments you bring,
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make these conversations
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more comprehensive than they would be otherwise, and I really do appreciate you. Thank you so much.
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Also,
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sale dispatch hats are back on sale. Richardson hats were out of stock
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globally, and now they're back in stock.
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Shipping worldwide
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should be able to get to you by Christmas.
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So if you're interested, go to seal dispatch.com/stack,
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to get a hat.
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Also, huge shout outs to BTC Pins and CryptoCloaks,
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for making awesome Bitcoin merch.
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Not sponsors, but, I like to shout out my favorite influencers,
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when I get the opportunity to.
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So with all that said,
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this will be our 3rd
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our 4th
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Bitcoin mining focused dispatch.
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The first one was Citadel dispatch 5, where we briefly touched on mining, not not very strongly.
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Then cildispatch
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31 was like the getting started, so if if you haven't listened to that, consider going and listening to that after this show. That's citildispatch.com/cd31.
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And then we had citildispatch
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38,
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where we went more in-depth on mining. And today, we will be also,
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going further
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into
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mining, and so I'm very excited about it. We have 2 return guests. I will start with them. We have,
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Ronan Miner. Ronan, how's it going?
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It's going alright.
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Awesome. Thank you for joining us again. Yeah.
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And we have Big Kahuna. Big Kahuna, how's it going?
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Hey, guys. I'm doing alright. Currently recording from my truck because we have a house showing going on. So this, this is interesting.
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Fuck. Yeah. We love that
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dedication. I met Big Kahuna in Austin,
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a couple weeks ago. So I think this is our first show doing it since,
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we met in person, so that's exciting.
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Oh, yeah.
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And we have Daniel Frumkin,
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head of research and content
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at Slush.
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How's it going, Daniel?
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Going very well. Thanks for having me, Matt.
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We also have another guest, BTC Boulder,
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who is not here right now, but will hopefully join us,
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further along into the conversation.
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So with all those introductions said,
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where do you guys wanna start? I know the focus here to start off or the focus here is gonna be on securing the cheapest power possible When you're talking about mining,
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you have two main costs.
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You have the actual hardware cost of the ASIC miners,
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and then you have the electric cost that you pay to run them.
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In the past, we have discussed
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securing miners and obtaining miners and
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trying to get the best price for them.
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And
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on this episode, we're gonna this conversation, we're gonna try and
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start with a focus on obtaining the cheapest power. So where do you guys wanna start on that?
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I handed it off to Kahuna
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to go through that thread that he did. I think that was the catalyst for this whole thing.
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Yeah. I guess, I guess what my thought was that, just to start really, really high level, like,
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you know, start from the
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the top of the globe, bird's eye view, how you can get the cheapest power and just, like, very slowly work down to a more granule level until we get to
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the residential,
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which is where I wrote that,
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purchase power agreement thread,
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which kinda had some tips and tricks in there to
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kinda guide people on how to negotiate power with their their
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energy service providers.
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So, like, I was really hoping that, BTC Boulder was gonna be on because he's a he's an actual lineman electrician. He works with, like, big, big, big, big power and would probably have a lot of insights as we as we work our way down through this.
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But I guess, like, to start off, like,
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obviously, the the best way to get cheap power is to position yourself near
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hydropower or geothermal or nuclear or something that that is the cheapest.
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And I don't know. I guess,
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Daniel, as you've been
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kind of exploring the world, I guess, do you have a list or an order of what what powers are,
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generally cheaper than others?
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Well, I think it's a lot different for industrial scale miners versus home miners,
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because as a home miner, you're you're buying power from a utility company most likely or almost definitely.
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So even if their energy source
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is like, regardless of whatever their energy source is,
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that that's not necessarily going to dictate what your end price is as a consumer.
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Whereas at the industrial level, if they're working directly with the power company, then,
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the hierarchy is is more based on the cost of energy for whatever energy source.
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Interestingly, you mentioned geothermal, and I was just in El Salvador for the conferences there and talking to some people. And it sounded to me like the geothermal energy is actually not all that cheap, like maybe
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7 to 8¢ per kilowatt hour,
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which could be profitable for a very long time,
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with all the current conditions that we have. But,
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I think
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ordinarily, I would be recommending to people at least mining at scale to look for something like 6¢ per kilowatt hour as a
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good barrier for or good threshold for being competitive long term.
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I think probably for all at home miners,
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that should be considerably higher than 6¢ per kilowatt hour because it's just not realistic in most places.
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And you're you're probably mining for reasons besides just the mining profitability on its own.
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But that said, I would probably rank them
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as, like, actually maybe solar as the number 1,
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which
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is very low on my list for industrial scale mining and very high on the list for at home mining,
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because there's so many incentives that,
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different companies or the government provides for doing solar panels on your roof at your home,
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that
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it typically makes sense to do solar panels if you're in a solar dense area like the Southwest or
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or Florida or anywhere in the South really,
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then you can
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you would be sending power back to the grid ordinarily with that kind of deal.
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Any excess that you produce, you would sell to the grid and you wouldn't get a necessarily great price for it. So mining Bitcoin with the excess on your at home solar can actually make a lot of sense.
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Other than that, it's it's hard to say.
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Daniel, let me just stop you really quick.
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So
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you work for Slush.
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You have this this dashboard, insights.brains.com.
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And in classic Bitcoin fashion, that's brains with 2 i's.
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Because no one in this space can name things in an easy way for someone on a podcast to talk about them.
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This this website is is extremely,
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detailed,
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And you have all these different
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stats on it.
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I got I I pulled it up on if you're watching the video stream, you can see it. I I have it in the screen share.
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And you have the breakeven
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electricity price of all the different top
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miners.
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So I'm seeing
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I'm seeing the s 9.
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When you when you list the s 9 here, is it running brains custom firmware?
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The breakeven electricity price is stock firmware.
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So So at stock firmware, you break even at 15¢ a kilowatt hour.
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Yep.
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So the the brains OS plus column there is with an overclocking profile, which which is actually
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not that much more efficient than the stock firmware because you're consuming so much more power.
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So the breakeven electricity price is about the same or even potentially lower. But if you were to run the s nine at, for example,
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800 or 900 watts instead of what we have there, which I think is 1400,
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then your breakeven electricity price would be probably 2 or 3¢ higher.
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Got it.
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So
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so a lot of people
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so so when we're talking about, like, at scale, like, try and target a 6¢ kilowatt hour or 7¢ kilowatt hour,
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it's it's it's about maximizing
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profit. Right? But you can especially if you're a home miner, you can get away with significantly higher electricity rates.
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And if you value no KYC
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when it comes to stacking,
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I would say, like, you could even push it maybe even a little bit further past breakeven if you if if that's something you value.
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And a lot of these, a lot of these utility companies will just offer offer it up. If you just call your utility provider
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and
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and just ask them what type of
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programs they have, and then you tell them what you have they'll they'll say, what do you fit into this type of category or that or that type of category?
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You can negotiate down for winter rates
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and and different
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even so just yesterday, a guy was explaining to me the rates that he's offered at his
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at his location, and he's just regular residential.
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He could get 5¢ a kilowatt hour for 21 hours a day
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during weekdays, but the other 3 hours a day during weekdays, he has pay 36¢ a kilowatt hour.
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So then you have to kinda do your Oh, shit.
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Yeah. And then on the weekends, he gets 5¢ a kilowatt hour,
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24 hours a day.
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So you kinda have to do your That's a bigger difference than I'd expect.
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Yeah. And then but then you gotta you gotta,
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I don't know, then you guys suppose you'd have to take into account, like, alright. So you're gonna shut your all your machines off for 3 hours a day? What kind of wear and tear does that do on your machines if you're
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powering them off and on every day?
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So I don't know. Know what kind of wear and tear that does, Daniel? No. Oh, okay. Sorry.
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Basically, we know it does
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some, but, like, nobody's willing to really share lifespan.
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Like, the the main people that we would get that information from are the ones doing the load balancing, like demand response stuff in ERCOT system in Texas and,
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similar system in Illinois.
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But Illinois. But there's,
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like, it's not necessarily a good idea for any minors to share
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that data because if they're participating in those programs
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and they share that data,
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then it would directly results in their hardware resale value going down.
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Because
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then there would be, like, some sort of,
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clause on any any hardware sale where, like, this hardware was used in a demand response or
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just frequently powered on and off application.
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So its lifespan is probably going to be shorter and the value will be lower, and then they're not gonna be able to resell it for as high of a price. So, it's hard to get that information. But,
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generally speaking,
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it's it's definitely not good.
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That's all we can say.
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That's, I never even thought about. I never even took that the resale value into consideration on that.
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So, yeah, I mean, the resale value is
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a lot of people don't take the resale value,
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into equation in the in the opposite direction in terms of
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when you're talking about profitability. I mean, you combine these things you combine with these things for a couple years and then resell them. What is that value at that
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point? It's a little bit harder to to know that, obviously, but it's still gonna have some value if you wanna resell them.
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Yeah. That's always kind of been my argument. I probably said it in the past past couple times I've been on is,
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everyone goes with the ROI metric, whereas
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just because it's gonna take you 10 months or 18 months or whatever
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however you've figured out your
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quote ROI,
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you're not sitting on 0 afterwards. Like, you still have like, even if you've gotten your return on investment, you still have a machine that's gonna be worth a lot to someone,
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presumably.
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So,
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a 100%. So, Daniel,
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I have
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I saw a question on Twitter,
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the other day, which is a question that I actually get a lot, from freaks who reach out.
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You wanna go into explaining
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why it's cheaper to buy 6 s nines
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versus,
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an s 19 even though the tower hashes are the same?
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Yeah.
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It's basically a a matter of a difference in
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efficiency.
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So for you to produce a 100 terahash with s nines, you have to consume,
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with, like, roughly 7,000 watts, maybe 8,000,
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depending on the quality of the s nines. Whereas to produce that same terahash with a s 19 only requires about 3,003,300
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watts.
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So,
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it's like max you you get more BTC per watt of power that you're consuming.
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And that that also means that the lifespan of your ASIC in terms of not in terms of operating lifespan, but just like the profitable lifespan where you can run it at a certain
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electricity price will be longer
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the more efficient it is.
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So the s nineteens are significantly more expensive because they they're expected to remain profitable for much longer and because they're going to help you stack much more BTC per watt of energy that you're consuming
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right away. So, like, at the extreme,
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it's more worth it to get the new gen miners
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if your electric cost is higher,
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and
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it's better to get
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the
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old gen miner, something like an s a bunch of s nines if you have free power or as close to free as possible.
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Yeah. Generally, if if your power even for a solid portion of the day, like 12 hours, if you have power for,
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under, like, 3¢ per kilowatt hour, then you should almost definitely be going with something like an s line or a,
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m twenty s from what's minor.
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Yeah. Once once you get above that, it becomes a lot more tricky because
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the,
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like, breakeven electricity price is only telling you day to day profitability. Like, can I can I make a profit by running this machine
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for the next 24 hours? But what it doesn't tell you is, will I actually make enough money to act to pay off this the CapEx that I spent to get this machine in the 1st place.
301
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So it's not quite as simple as, like, a So the breakeven price you list does not include purchasing the miner.
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Right. You you that's,
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if you scroll up to the very top of this page, we have a profitability calculator.
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And we call it a profitability calculator just because that's what people are used to, but it what it really is is like a Bitcoin mining cash flow calculator.
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So in the advanced options on the the inputs sidebar,
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if you open up advanced options down there,
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there's CapEx,
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hardware starting hardware value, hardware
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appreciation or depreciation,
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infrastructure appreciation or depreciation.
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And then,
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Huddl ratio is for, like, if you wanna
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keep a certain portion of your profits in BTC instead of selling into,
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Fiat. So yeah. Exactly.
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So if you if you have a non zero non zero price
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increments on in the basic options for BTC price, and then you have a HODL ratio, then you see the impact of, like, holding versus not holding.
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But for for hardware value,
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that's part of the cash flow line. So once you input CapEx and hardware value,
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then the cash flow separates
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from the net profit loss. And,
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and then, like, your resale value of the hardware is factored to the cash flow. So as hardware
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depreciates,
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even though
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it maybe it loses half of its value in the in a year if it's an old gen machine, I don't think that, like, personally,
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I'm I think that price growth will outpace difficulty growth in the near term and and hardware will actually get more expensive.
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So I think there's an interesting play of trying to trade the hardware
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where you you mine with it at home for a year, and then you try to sell high on it.
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But anyway, yeah,
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it's hard to to actually see the inputs. Let me go full screen.
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Yeah. Why isn't the graph changing? Am I fucking something up?
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I don't know. It's
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I think, actually, the
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it's but, yeah, it's because, the hash rate and consumption are way too high. So it's, like, change the hash rate to
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a 100 terahash and consumption to 3,000 watts, and then everything will be more proportional and and we'll be able to see stuff better. It'll It'll reload better.
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I'm trying to get rid of the little yeah. There we go.
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Okay. So now you can see hardware value, the yellow line
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where it's losing about 50% of its value in that 12 months.
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The cash flow is the pink line that's increasing
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less rapidly
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than
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the net profit loss. And the reason for that is because while you're making that profit, the hardware is depreciating.
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So your cash flow, which includes the value of your assets,
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is not increasing as quickly as the amount of money that you're just making
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in general.
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Got it.
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This is a pretty in-depth little calculator you guys got here.
347
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Yeah. This was the the first part of the project that we built, and it was,
348
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I I had a ton of spreadsheets,
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and I was trying to explain them to people who were, like, just getting into mining, just going through, like, cell by cell on Excel spreadsheets. Like, if I change this, then this is what happens and and so on and so on. And like, nobody was understanding it. It was really difficult. And then,
350
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at the same time that I was like,
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had so many tabs open trying to keep track of stuff, I was just kinda like, this would be really useful for content if I could have visualizations
352
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for all of these,
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like, Excel spreadsheets that I can't even make charts for in Excel
354
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because none of them make sense.
355
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So, yeah, it's it's, I think, the most advanced calculator
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out there on the market by far.
357
00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:53.710
Well, we appreciate it.
358
00:25:54.835 --> 00:25:57.815
So what's your favorite what's your favorite part of this site?
359
00:25:58.355 --> 00:26:00.295
What's your favorite metric on this site?
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00:26:01.075 --> 00:26:17.905
My my favorite little tool is at the very bottom. It's a power capacity widget where if you input a certain amount of power in megawatts, it will automatically update the chart and tell you how many miners you can fit in it and what amount of hash rate that those miners will generate.
361
00:26:18.525 --> 00:26:30.769
So the defaults we have in there is 2.5 megawatts, but if you change it to, like, a 100 megawatts, then you'd see, like, here's what the numbers that a large miner is working with when you get into the exahashes.
362
00:26:31.435 --> 00:26:32.495
Why are there no,
363
00:26:32.955 --> 00:26:34.095
what's minors here?
364
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It's,
365
00:26:35.835 --> 00:26:43.180
we have it filtered so that it's not super long, but at the top right next to the power capacity input, you can change the hardware manufacturer.
366
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And you have a show all button.
367
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Yeah.
368
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Does anyone use, like, Kanan, Ebang?
369
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In their server. Actually,
370
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a couple of large miners with tens of thousands of Kanans.
371
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I don't think anybody's using Ebang or InyoSilicon
372
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at any kind of scale anymore,
373
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But for sure, Kanan has at least, like,
374
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I I would say, a 100,000
375
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of their new gen machines out there, something like that. And
376
00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:20.620
that yeah. I didn't realize that at all. That's that's not that's not nothing.
377
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.500
Before we move on from this website,
378
00:27:25.045 --> 00:27:32.665
you wanna explain what the hell is in this chart, the hash value versus hash and hash price? Like, I still don't get it. Like, there was a back and forth on Twitter.
379
00:27:33.429 --> 00:27:34.169
Yeah. So
380
00:27:34.870 --> 00:27:43.975
I I didn't even understand what people were confused about at first because I've been, like, in in my little bubble of knowing what hash price is for a long time.
381
00:27:44.595 --> 00:27:47.815
People are confusing hash price with dollars per terahash
382
00:27:48.434 --> 00:27:49.735
capex for hardware.
383
00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:58.660
So because I think it's because of the the name price and shout out to to Ethan from Hash Rate Index. I'm pretty sure he's the one that,
384
00:27:59.280 --> 00:28:02.875
came up with with doing hash price as the
385
00:28:03.495 --> 00:28:05.115
the the name for this metric,
386
00:28:05.735 --> 00:28:12.340
and it just stuck. And now that's what we're using as well. But this is actually referring to the revenue generated per day
387
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by,
388
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by 1 terahash of Hash rate. So it has nothing to do with the the price
389
00:28:18.015 --> 00:28:18.515
of
390
00:28:18.975 --> 00:28:24.675
procuring that Hash rate, of procuring an ASIC. It is just, like, the USD value per day,
391
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of the the revenue that you generate
392
00:28:28.560 --> 00:28:29.620
with 1 TeraHash.
393
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.154
And then the hash value is the BTC value per day. So what you can see on this chart is that,
394
00:28:36.534 --> 00:28:42.315
in July, when the China mining ban happened, hash value soared because difficulty went down.
395
00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:45.080
So when difficulty decreases, the amount of
396
00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:48.840
BTC that you generate per terra hash goes up.
397
00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:52.645
But price was also going down at that same time. So the hash
398
00:28:53.125 --> 00:28:54.665
price was not going up
399
00:28:55.045 --> 00:28:57.065
at the same rate as the hash value.
400
00:28:57.525 --> 00:29:01.385
And then now we're going back to they're converging now and probably
401
00:29:01.860 --> 00:29:05.960
I would expect that hash value will will overtake hash price. And eventually,
402
00:29:06.820 --> 00:29:10.360
they'll be far separated with hash price being,
403
00:29:11.635 --> 00:29:15.895
sorry. I I think I mixed those up. Hash price will overtake hash value.
404
00:29:16.995 --> 00:29:18.775
Ronan, do you understand this?
405
00:29:20.600 --> 00:29:22.920
No. I thought it was I thought it was,
406
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:25.980
I was reading it wrong this whole time.
407
00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:27.420
His his
408
00:29:28.355 --> 00:29:34.950
his initial explanation of what people think it is is what I thought it was. I didn't know it was the difference between, like,
409
00:29:35.350 --> 00:29:37.289
okay. You're mining this much BTC
410
00:29:37.669 --> 00:29:40.730
compared to you're mining this much fiat. And
411
00:29:41.269 --> 00:29:42.809
what I thought it was was
412
00:29:43.975 --> 00:29:48.635
for how much dollars per terahash you're buying a machine compared to
413
00:29:48.935 --> 00:29:49.995
how many dollars
414
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.059
you're making per terahash.
415
00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:58.020
So I was I was wrong about it. The the problem with that is that now, I think.
416
00:29:58.414 --> 00:30:02.355
Every machine has a different dollars per terahash CapEx number.
417
00:30:02.735 --> 00:30:05.875
So I I wanna come up with a a better name for
418
00:30:06.255 --> 00:30:08.980
the CapEx version of it. But the,
419
00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:14.899
like, dollars per terahash to procure an ASIC is different for every single machine because,
420
00:30:16.115 --> 00:30:28.000
like, it depends also on the efficiency. It's not just a raw hash rate amount. So the dollars per terahash for an s 19 will be significantly higher than the dollars per terahash for an s 9
421
00:30:28.300 --> 00:30:33.005
because the s 19 is more efficient. So you're you're able to keep more of the BTC
422
00:30:33.705 --> 00:30:35.565
that you mine with each of those terahashes,
423
00:30:36.585 --> 00:30:40.365
because you're consuming less energy in order to produce that BTC,
424
00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:44.910
and therefore, you have to sell less of it to pay your power bills. Which goes right back to
425
00:30:46.270 --> 00:30:50.684
oh, I'm sorry for interrupting. But, yeah, it goes right back to what you were explaining earlier on why
426
00:30:51.304 --> 00:30:52.605
why a single
427
00:30:53.304 --> 00:30:54.205
s 19
428
00:30:54.664 --> 00:30:57.004
j or whatever is better
429
00:30:57.304 --> 00:30:58.524
than 6
430
00:30:58.840 --> 00:30:59.580
s nines
431
00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:12.115
Right. For that exact reason. Because dollar per terahash is totally different. You get the same amount of terahash, but you're paying different dollar amounts for it, and that does not equal what you're going to end up with.
432
00:31:12.654 --> 00:31:13.475
Right. Exactly.
433
00:31:16.450 --> 00:31:17.190
Got it.
434
00:31:18.210 --> 00:31:20.870
So what this this chart really shows is just,
435
00:31:21.409 --> 00:31:23.750
the impact of increasing difficulty
436
00:31:24.505 --> 00:31:25.005
and
437
00:31:25.465 --> 00:31:28.445
volatility in Bitcoin price on mining revenue.
438
00:31:35.250 --> 00:31:37.910
Bighoon distracted me. Can you repeat that one more time?
439
00:31:39.330 --> 00:31:43.875
Yeah. This chart is this chart is showing basically the impacts of increasing difficulty over time, which is why hash value goes down and
440
00:31:45.955 --> 00:31:47.335
hash value goes down,
441
00:31:47.635 --> 00:31:52.535
and then volatility in Bitcoin price, which is why there's volatility in the hash price,
442
00:31:53.409 --> 00:31:57.669
over time. So increasing difficulty means decreasing hash value.
443
00:31:58.049 --> 00:31:59.990
And then if Bitcoin price increases
444
00:32:00.684 --> 00:32:02.545
faster proportional to difficulty,
445
00:32:03.085 --> 00:32:04.625
then hash price will go up.
446
00:32:04.925 --> 00:32:07.985
And if BTC price goes down or
447
00:32:08.470 --> 00:32:10.649
decrease or increases slower than difficulty,
448
00:32:11.110 --> 00:32:14.169
then hash price will go down. Right. So So then
449
00:32:15.429 --> 00:32:15.929
why,
450
00:32:16.565 --> 00:32:18.825
sorry, Ronan. Hit us, Ronan. Alright.
451
00:32:19.525 --> 00:32:22.745
So, essentially, what you're what you're saying is, like, a pool
452
00:32:24.409 --> 00:32:32.750
is a purchaser of your Hash rate. You're selling your Hash rate to that pool, and they're mining with it, and then they're giving you
453
00:32:33.385 --> 00:32:33.885
your
454
00:32:34.505 --> 00:32:40.045
what you're what you're owed for that amount of hash rate. And as network hash rate goes up, if your
455
00:32:40.919 --> 00:32:43.580
hash rate that you are selling to them stays stable,
456
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:44.380
then
457
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:46.860
then your
458
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:51.015
value of the hash rate that you're contributing goes down in value.
459
00:32:51.554 --> 00:32:58.534
But if the price of Bitcoin goes up, it starts to chase that back because you're being rewarded more for
460
00:32:59.050 --> 00:33:01.710
the hash rate even if your hash rate stays stable?
461
00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:13.685
Right. Exactly. So the in in pool terms, hash value is the only relevant metric because the pool is not paying you in USD or whatever your local fiat is. They're paying you in BTC.
462
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:18.700
So just if if you if you have a steady one terahash,
463
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.179
then as difficulty goes up, your rewards from the pool will keep going down.
464
00:33:23.995 --> 00:33:26.174
But, yeah, if Bitcoin price goes up enough,
465
00:33:26.715 --> 00:33:27.215
then
466
00:33:27.674 --> 00:33:33.054
your rewards and Fiat terms can still keep going up even as they're going down in BTC terms,
467
00:33:33.470 --> 00:33:35.170
which is where, like, in calculations
468
00:33:36.270 --> 00:33:39.410
with mining profitability and, like, should I mine or not?
469
00:33:40.804 --> 00:33:48.585
There's 2 CapEx break even points. 1 is the CapEx break even in USD or whatever Fiat terms, and the other one is in BTC terms.
470
00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:57.070
And I wanna make a version of the calculator that's like a BTC maxi version where we do the CapEx breakeven of, like, if I spent this $12,000
471
00:33:57.765 --> 00:34:00.105
just buying Bitcoin instead of mining,
472
00:34:01.045 --> 00:34:04.585
when, like, when would I make more Bitcoin
473
00:34:04.970 --> 00:34:07.870
from mining than I could have bought with that $12,000
474
00:34:08.330 --> 00:34:09.070
in the beginning.
475
00:34:10.650 --> 00:34:13.630
Right. I like that. So but so in practice,
476
00:34:16.155 --> 00:34:16.655
it's
477
00:34:17.435 --> 00:34:22.175
kind of the same end result as what me and Ronan thought the chart showed to begin with. Yes.
478
00:34:22.680 --> 00:34:26.540
Yes. That's why I I didn't even, like, think about it that people were were
479
00:34:27.080 --> 00:34:30.140
thinking of the other dollars for TeraHash because it does
480
00:34:30.585 --> 00:34:35.005
essentially show the same thing. Like, if you're if you're long term bullish on Bitcoin,
481
00:34:35.545 --> 00:34:40.160
you should be trying to buy miners when the blue line is lower than the orange line, the yellow
482
00:34:40.540 --> 00:34:41.040
line.
483
00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:48.160
Right? I would say if you're long term bullish on Bitcoin, you should be trying to buy miners just in general. But yeah.
484
00:34:49.655 --> 00:34:50.155
So,
485
00:34:50.934 --> 00:34:51.434
basically,
486
00:34:52.214 --> 00:34:54.635
if hash price is going up, then that means
487
00:34:55.095 --> 00:35:02.560
the the value of the the price that you have to pay for the machines will probably be going up as well. But if you already have them,
488
00:35:03.020 --> 00:35:06.400
then that means that the resale value is also going up.
489
00:35:06.945 --> 00:35:11.205
So, like, that's where I was saying before, if you you can actually kind of
490
00:35:12.225 --> 00:35:15.045
imagine people starting to trade hardware on
491
00:35:15.609 --> 00:35:20.750
6 6 months to 18 month time frames where, like, I could buy a machine
492
00:35:21.289 --> 00:35:27.845
expecting that in this next, let's say, 18 months, Bitcoin price is going to increase faster than difficulty.
493
00:35:28.465 --> 00:35:33.125
If that happens, basically, Hash price will go up from where it is right now.
494
00:35:33.570 --> 00:35:39.270
And if hash price is up from where it is right now, then the machine value will be up from where it is right now.
495
00:35:40.050 --> 00:35:47.015
And I'll be able to resell it for more than I paid for it, and I'll keep all of the all of the BTC that I mined in the process.
496
00:35:47.555 --> 00:35:51.255
So that's where it does show the exact same thing as what you were saying because,
497
00:35:52.030 --> 00:35:53.250
as hash price goes
498
00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:57.650
up, then the amount that you have to pay for hardware is gonna go up to.
499
00:35:58.430 --> 00:36:01.275
Awesome. Okay. Thank you for going through that with us.
500
00:36:03.035 --> 00:36:06.895
I've been very excited to talk to you about it on air since my confusion.
501
00:36:07.994 --> 00:36:10.815
We have BTC Boulder has joined us.
502
00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:13.349
How's it going, BTC Boulder?
503
00:36:15.010 --> 00:36:16.150
Welcome to the show.
504
00:36:18.050 --> 00:36:23.005
How's it going? Good. Everything going to you guys is little off on the time zones, but I'm here now.
505
00:36:23.625 --> 00:36:26.045
Yeah. We figured out that it was a time zone issue.
506
00:36:29.799 --> 00:36:34.380
I I don't know if we mentioned that it was EST, but if we didn't, that's on us.
507
00:36:36.839 --> 00:36:37.740
Yeah. No problem.
508
00:36:39.045 --> 00:36:41.065
You wanna introduce yourself to the freaks?
509
00:36:43.605 --> 00:36:44.484
Yes. The
510
00:36:45.140 --> 00:36:47.799
Daniel's first name, based out of your Boulder.
511
00:36:49.700 --> 00:36:53.960
Long electrician now. The union work utility power, high voltage,
512
00:36:55.455 --> 00:36:56.675
medium voltage or
513
00:36:57.135 --> 00:36:58.595
controls, fiber optic.
514
00:36:59.295 --> 00:37:04.589
Not too familiar with, like, the pricing structure on the I know you guys are talking to the kilowatt hour,
515
00:37:05.130 --> 00:37:06.270
comparing them versus
516
00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:16.775
states and when you when you buy it, time of the the week. Not too familiar with that aspect of it, but as far as the electrical install side, very familiar with it.
517
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.720
Do you have a lot do you have knowledge on, like, grids and stuff? Like,
518
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:24.960
I mean,
519
00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:28.165
I I know that, like The voltages they're running at
520
00:37:28.565 --> 00:37:31.865
and certain sections, is that what you're you're referring to? Or
521
00:37:32.325 --> 00:37:38.680
Yeah. I I guess one of the things that I was I was hoping that you would be in the chat just so we could, you know, confirm and deny some of this stuff.
522
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:45.675
What I wanna get into. I I guess, Matt, are you okay with me just kinda going off on this,
523
00:37:46.315 --> 00:37:52.255
Yeah. 100%, dude. Go for it. Okay. Alright. I don't know if you had an agenda you were thinking or or whatnot.
524
00:37:53.530 --> 00:37:59.070
One thing that I found out that was pretty interesting, when you're when you're, like, kinda building up a mining operation,
525
00:37:59.585 --> 00:38:04.965
if you're in the middle of butt fuck nowhere in the middle of the woods, like, you that grid is
526
00:38:05.425 --> 00:38:07.525
powered differently than living in a city,
527
00:38:08.180 --> 00:38:10.200
or living in, like, a in a business,
528
00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:16.600
area. So if I wanted to if I lived out in the woods and wanted to run an operation with 10 s nineteens,
529
00:38:17.855 --> 00:38:24.115
the the power provider might not even be able to give that to me because that would put too much strain on
530
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:28.559
all my neighbors because there's not enough voltage running through those power lines.
531
00:38:29.259 --> 00:38:34.585
But if you live in near a city or, like, during or in an industrial area,
532
00:38:34.964 --> 00:38:37.464
then that grid by default is more
533
00:38:37.845 --> 00:38:40.025
wired with higher voltage to
534
00:38:40.325 --> 00:38:41.224
actually support
535
00:38:42.369 --> 00:38:43.750
larger power draws.
536
00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:46.470
That's a correct assumption. Right?
537
00:38:47.890 --> 00:38:54.045
Yeah. It's really case by case on on the area because, I mean, you could be out in the middle of nowhere and it still has higher voltages that wouldn't
538
00:38:54.425 --> 00:38:56.365
be affected by running some minors.
539
00:38:57.305 --> 00:38:59.724
Do you know what those voltage limits are?
540
00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:04.370
And I I get really confused when it comes to, like, your grid voltages.
541
00:39:06.670 --> 00:39:08.545
Yeah. That's around, like, 13,000.
542
00:39:09.165 --> 00:39:10.865
And sometimes in the in the neighborhoods,
543
00:39:11.245 --> 00:39:12.065
I mean, that'll
544
00:39:12.365 --> 00:39:14.145
they'll break it down into just
545
00:39:15.230 --> 00:39:19.010
whatever transformers are set up on there, but it's, yeah, 13,000
546
00:39:19.710 --> 00:39:21.330
utility for the most part.
547
00:39:21.790 --> 00:39:27.465
That's for If it's, like, city to city city to city, it's getting, like, in the the 24,000
548
00:39:27.845 --> 00:39:29.125
or higher range or
549
00:39:29.765 --> 00:39:32.585
but, like, I think what you're talking about, it could be up in the
550
00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:45.605
the couple thousand range. A good way to look at it is the the pole that's feeding it and the style of, like, insulator and the size of the pole could is a is a good way to determine potentially what it's feeding at her. For the utility company, I'll tell you what that area is getting fed with.
551
00:39:46.385 --> 00:39:52.405
And will the will the utility company be able to tell you, I guess, your limit as a as a resident or as a business?
552
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:55.579
Yeah. And sometimes they'll
553
00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:57.099
do a transformer
554
00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:58.940
depending on the
555
00:39:59.615 --> 00:40:11.220
the demand of it and what you're doing. Sometimes they'll they'll upgrade their stuff, but, I mean, it's really case by case on on your area and what you're thinking your demand is. But they'll definitely inform you on everything of what's being fed and voltages.
556
00:40:11.839 --> 00:40:13.460
Would that be a transformer
557
00:40:13.839 --> 00:40:14.339
upgrade,
558
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.215
not to your well, okay. They can upgrade your pole if there's enough power on the power lines,
559
00:40:20.915 --> 00:40:25.895
to get you more voltage to your house. But if they were to upgrade that whole power line,
560
00:40:26.740 --> 00:40:28.440
that might that'll likely require,
561
00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:30.520
thicker gauge cables.
562
00:40:31.540 --> 00:40:39.145
And if if you're the one driving that change, then they might ask you to cover that for the, you know, the whole circuit.
563
00:40:41.285 --> 00:40:44.130
Yeah. I think it's really the on the on the situation
564
00:40:44.430 --> 00:40:48.530
to really answer that the best because it's I've I've kinda seen it just all
565
00:40:48.990 --> 00:40:51.175
all different ways when it comes to the
566
00:40:51.575 --> 00:40:54.235
responsibility of the utility out or the
567
00:40:55.175 --> 00:40:56.155
the property owner
568
00:40:56.695 --> 00:40:57.195
or
569
00:40:57.575 --> 00:41:01.750
however they wanna have the utilities fed in. Sometimes, who's gonna pay for it?
570
00:41:02.130 --> 00:41:05.430
Okay. Yeah. And I'm I'm probably breaking off on a little bit of a tangent here.
571
00:41:06.684 --> 00:41:09.105
When we first started, we were saying that, like,
572
00:41:09.484 --> 00:41:13.265
the best way to get the cheapest power is to position yourself near,
573
00:41:14.160 --> 00:41:20.420
the cheapest energy. And, obviously, a lot of people aren't gonna be uprooting their house to move out to the middle of nowhere near a waterfall.
574
00:41:21.695 --> 00:41:24.035
And when you get when you zoom in a little bit closer,
575
00:41:25.375 --> 00:41:28.115
the the next step is to position yourself near
576
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:32.079
power facilities or, like, cities, essentially. Because
577
00:41:32.539 --> 00:41:36.240
because if you're closer to the power facility, that's a cheaper,
578
00:41:37.474 --> 00:41:43.815
delivery cost. Like, these these power providers actually charge you a fee to deliver electricity to your house.
579
00:41:44.160 --> 00:41:46.820
And my understanding is that that delivery fee
580
00:41:47.200 --> 00:41:50.820
is directly partial to the distance you are to the
581
00:41:51.375 --> 00:41:52.975
the power generation site.
582
00:41:53.375 --> 00:41:58.835
And, generally, if you're in the city, you're much closer, but if you're out in the woods, then you might have a higher,
583
00:41:59.295 --> 00:42:00.355
delivery fee.
584
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:05.260
And then taking that a step further, you might have a a weaker,
585
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.140
like, a lower gauge power line setup,
586
00:42:08.520 --> 00:42:10.060
meaning that you you can't
587
00:42:11.255 --> 00:42:13.915
scale up a huge operation in your pole barn because,
588
00:42:15.015 --> 00:42:18.635
the grid in the woods is not good enough to do so.
589
00:42:19.010 --> 00:42:24.230
Is that is that all pretty correct to say that, like, your distance is directly proportional to that distribution
590
00:42:24.530 --> 00:42:26.150
fee that they're gonna charge you?
591
00:42:27.675 --> 00:42:31.055
Yeah. I thought it was so slight that you wouldn't even tell.
592
00:42:31.675 --> 00:42:38.940
I have I have some friends in the in the utilities, in the metering that I could confirm that, but I was almost under the assumption that, like, if you're in,
593
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:43.455
like, Excel Power or somewhere in Colorado, it's not like
594
00:42:44.735 --> 00:42:52.675
you're getting that much of a difference between how far over the powerhouse is in in your in your house, like, out in the middle of nowhere versus someone in the city that's near the powerhouse
595
00:42:53.020 --> 00:42:54.320
versus the kilowatt hour
596
00:42:54.620 --> 00:42:57.680
of the going rate of what they're of what they're showing in advertising.
597
00:42:58.140 --> 00:43:01.520
Your kilowatt hours probably aren't affected that much, but your
598
00:43:02.395 --> 00:43:11.214
they do tack on so you have a a base kilowatt hour for your capacity use, but then you have they tack on a, like, a deliver a distribution kilowatt hour.
599
00:43:11.710 --> 00:43:13.010
I'm gonna share something.
600
00:43:13.870 --> 00:43:18.130
If I just post this in the hologram, can you share it, or can I pull it up?
601
00:43:18.885 --> 00:43:20.665
Yeah. I can I can share it?
602
00:43:21.045 --> 00:43:21.545
Okay.
603
00:43:23.925 --> 00:43:33.330
It it it's been interesting. What what kinda led this idea was I made this big thread on, on power purchase agreements. And I don't know if you guys looked through it, but
604
00:43:33.630 --> 00:43:34.130
the
605
00:43:34.455 --> 00:43:36.555
the idea was that I I started looking
606
00:43:37.095 --> 00:43:38.635
at my my residential,
607
00:43:39.335 --> 00:43:40.155
power provider
608
00:43:40.615 --> 00:43:41.275
and just
609
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.380
seeing what they offered. And I found out that,
610
00:43:45.160 --> 00:43:53.155
it was all public all public information online. I could literally point to the the power purchase agreement I wanted and say, yo,
611
00:43:53.695 --> 00:43:54.835
sign me up for this,
612
00:43:55.615 --> 00:43:59.910
and then they would charge me according to that. And And this was really interesting to me because,
613
00:44:01.010 --> 00:44:03.590
when when I thought about this beforehand, I thought that
614
00:44:03.970 --> 00:44:05.430
if you're a massive
615
00:44:06.195 --> 00:44:07.815
operation, say, Riot Blockchain,
616
00:44:08.515 --> 00:44:12.535
like, you can call them up and negotiate a power agreement. But
617
00:44:12.970 --> 00:44:18.670
what I found is that for my company, it was all out there in the open. They had it all structured. You could pick what you wanted.
618
00:44:20.585 --> 00:44:22.684
And, like, this is where you get into,
619
00:44:23.865 --> 00:44:28.845
like like, I think Ronan, he conned them into letting them say that he's heating his house with,
620
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:32.760
electric heaters, and that gave him a cheap rate.
621
00:44:33.700 --> 00:44:36.440
You, like, peak off peak power to get different rates.
622
00:44:38.335 --> 00:44:38.835
And
623
00:44:39.775 --> 00:44:42.994
So is this screenshot directly from your power provider's
624
00:44:43.295 --> 00:44:51.340
website? This this is directly from my power provider, and this is what they give me. This is, exactly what I would I will be paying,
625
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.500
unless I pick a different plan.
626
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:58.845
And this is kinda hard to read. I I feel like they almost do it on purpose.
627
00:44:59.945 --> 00:45:00.905
But if you
628
00:45:02.640 --> 00:45:05.300
I'm also checking mark this up. If you just
629
00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:14.925
What's the delivery charges you're talking about there on the bottom, the distribution kilowatt hour? Yep. So so if you ignore the first 17 kilowatt hour,
630
00:45:15.945 --> 00:45:19.005
portion and you just add up the capacity energy under
631
00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:19.980
additional
632
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:22.619
and non capacity energy under additional.
633
00:45:23.080 --> 00:45:24.220
And then that distribution,
634
00:45:26.040 --> 00:45:26.540
number,
635
00:45:27.295 --> 00:45:36.515
that's that that's gonna be your kilowatt hour charge, and then they just tack on that service charge and whatever credit on top of it. What does capacity and non capacity mean?
636
00:45:37.859 --> 00:45:38.680
Do you know?
637
00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:41.160
I don't know. Do you, do you know Boulder?
638
00:45:43.059 --> 00:45:57.119
I was thinking about the the time of day you're using it when it's at peak, like, whenever the people are using more on the grid. That's what I was Okay. So this this is not peak off peak because peak off peak is a different, it's a different plan that you get to negotiate.
639
00:46:01.585 --> 00:46:03.205
Let me see. Capacity.
640
00:46:04.225 --> 00:46:06.645
Maybe how much are you using of it at a time?
641
00:46:07.185 --> 00:46:10.950
When I called them, they told me that you just add those two numbers together.
642
00:46:11.890 --> 00:46:15.510
And I I didn't I didn't really understand the capacity versus non capacity.
643
00:46:16.770 --> 00:46:20.205
But Meaning that your true cost per kilowatt hour is the
644
00:46:21.225 --> 00:46:22.845
the sum of those two numbers?
645
00:46:23.225 --> 00:46:24.285
Yeah. Yep.
646
00:46:25.145 --> 00:46:25.645
Okay.
647
00:46:26.105 --> 00:46:31.340
Would I have a would I have a You're paying, like, 10¢ a kilowatt hour on your bill of 10.50.
648
00:46:32.120 --> 00:46:35.820
And then you have that distribution. So it it's, like, you know, 16, 17.
649
00:46:36.305 --> 00:46:38.325
Oh, so your your rate isn't
650
00:46:38.625 --> 00:46:39.125
nice?
651
00:46:39.825 --> 00:46:41.125
Yeah. No. It's not.
652
00:46:42.625 --> 00:46:49.070
Oh, I said nice because yeah. Never mind. But yeah. I mean, I I thought you were paying significantly lower than
653
00:46:49.850 --> 00:46:51.470
than what I've come to expect.
654
00:46:52.305 --> 00:46:55.845
Nope. But when you add it all up, then that's when it gets to them, which you're expecting.
655
00:46:57.905 --> 00:46:59.265
Right. So with, my
656
00:46:59.984 --> 00:47:00.645
I guess
657
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:15.095
I was gonna say with Excel Excel in Minnesota, they actually have 2 different charges. The bill looks similar to yours, which you have going on there. But you actually pay per you pay a dollar amount per kilowatt.
658
00:47:15.795 --> 00:47:17.255
And then after that,
659
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.660
it's almost like you pay a certain dollar
660
00:47:21.200 --> 00:47:21.700
amount
661
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:23.060
per kilowatt.
662
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:26.340
And then after that, you pay
663
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:34.655
this amount per kilowatt hour at some really lowered rate. And I've never been able to understand what the difference is between kilowatt hour and kilowatts
664
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:41.100
in general. Kilowatt, is that I mean, that's best explained if you actually think about the the peak power,
665
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:43.180
plan that,
666
00:47:43.905 --> 00:47:44.885
I guess I discovered.
667
00:47:45.425 --> 00:47:45.905
So
668
00:47:46.385 --> 00:47:49.205
okay. To to to kinda take this further,
669
00:47:50.225 --> 00:47:51.845
that's my standard
670
00:47:52.385 --> 00:47:52.885
bill.
671
00:47:54.800 --> 00:48:00.485
And what I found out is that you can negotiate or you can sign up for the peak power agreement.
672
00:48:00.965 --> 00:48:01.465
And,
673
00:48:02.485 --> 00:48:05.625
how that works is you're essentially billed for
674
00:48:06.565 --> 00:48:08.265
you're essentially billed for
675
00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:12.440
the maximum amount of power that you use.
676
00:48:13.220 --> 00:48:15.160
So if if you're running a welder
677
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:18.360
and you turn it on for 10 minutes
678
00:48:19.015 --> 00:48:19.515
versus
679
00:48:20.535 --> 00:48:22.234
so so in a standard bill,
680
00:48:23.015 --> 00:48:27.194
if you turn your welder on for 10 minutes, you're only charged for the 10 minutes that you're running that welder.
681
00:48:27.690 --> 00:48:29.230
If you go to a peak power agreement
682
00:48:29.690 --> 00:48:33.950
and you turn that welder on for 10 minutes, your charge is if that welder was running 247
683
00:48:34.650 --> 00:48:35.150
for,
684
00:48:36.875 --> 00:48:39.295
you know, for the entire month. And so
685
00:48:39.835 --> 00:48:42.734
that that's what that kilowatt charge is
686
00:48:43.194 --> 00:48:43.674
that,
687
00:48:44.370 --> 00:48:49.030
you're seeing, Neil. You're being charged as if you're running your max power amount
688
00:48:49.890 --> 00:48:50.390
247.
689
00:48:51.385 --> 00:48:57.005
And you can kinda see how this would be really good for mining. Right? Because if you're mining and you're getting charged,
690
00:48:57.625 --> 00:49:00.765
18¢ like the the bill we just showed up on the screen,
691
00:49:01.140 --> 00:49:03.319
That sucks. Like, you're being charged 247.18¢
692
00:49:04.180 --> 00:49:08.039
per kilowatt hour. But if you go into a a peak power agreement,
693
00:49:09.815 --> 00:49:12.795
they're gonna bill you for your peak load for that month.
694
00:49:13.655 --> 00:49:18.670
So, again, if you turn on your 10 s nineteens for 10 minutes, you'll be charged as if it's running 247.
695
00:49:19.609 --> 00:49:26.255
But you know you're gonna be running that 247, and that allows that allows me to get down to a I think it was 8¢.
696
00:49:28.714 --> 00:49:30.635
And then I'm not actually running this, but,
697
00:49:31.194 --> 00:49:32.174
I did the math,
698
00:49:32.954 --> 00:49:36.030
and I can actually share that if you wanna pull it
699
00:49:36.330 --> 00:49:42.750
up. So what you're saying, it makes it so that you can you can plan your expenses. You know exactly what it's gonna cost you
700
00:49:43.275 --> 00:49:43.855
to run
701
00:49:44.715 --> 00:49:46.175
exactly how many you're running.
702
00:49:48.075 --> 00:49:57.130
And if you go over that, then you get then you basically have to end up paying more because you went over the contract that you had with them. Is that what is that what I'm understanding?
703
00:50:00.070 --> 00:50:00.570
You're
704
00:50:05.505 --> 00:50:10.645
did did did my explanation make sense to most people? It sounds like I I kinda got chopped up a little.
705
00:50:13.300 --> 00:50:14.340
It made sense.
706
00:50:14.740 --> 00:50:16.680
I could try to summarize as, like,
707
00:50:17.060 --> 00:50:20.600
basically, there's 2 really important figures. 1 is,
708
00:50:21.220 --> 00:50:23.445
like, kind of the base rate that you pay,
709
00:50:24.305 --> 00:50:29.205
regardless. And then the other one is what is the maximum amount of energy that you consume
710
00:50:29.910 --> 00:50:34.650
at any point in time during that entire month or whatever the billing period is,
711
00:50:35.190 --> 00:50:46.135
because that will determine an amount that's added on to your base rate for the entire duration of the month. So if you were to just have a random blip where you consume an extra, like,
712
00:50:46.490 --> 00:50:54.430
let's say 3 kilowatts or something that would actually significantly impact your bill even if you're only consuming that extra amount for a few minutes
713
00:50:54.865 --> 00:50:58.245
because of the way that they structured the u x ricity pricing.
714
00:50:59.185 --> 00:51:01.525
Alright. That was kinda my understanding of it.
715
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:13.484
Yeah. So, like yeah. This is just, like, really interesting to me to find out. So I I was relaying this on to a lot people and,
716
00:51:13.945 --> 00:51:16.205
like, people started hitting me up in DMs and,
717
00:51:17.305 --> 00:51:20.125
you know, Telegram, whatever, blah blah blah, and, like,
718
00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:21.450
just kinda
719
00:51:22.230 --> 00:51:25.190
zooming out and starting to look at this at different states. Like, I
720
00:51:25.910 --> 00:51:27.130
it seems like in Michigan,
721
00:51:27.590 --> 00:51:28.810
which is where I'm at,
722
00:51:29.695 --> 00:51:32.515
a lot of this information was all public. You could just Google,
723
00:51:34.175 --> 00:51:38.355
your energy provider rates and find all this information out there.
724
00:51:39.060 --> 00:51:40.520
But then you look into Ohio.
725
00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:49.005
I think Colorado, a lot of it was available, but, like, Ohio, they they pretty much made you call them up to to see what they could offer you.
726
00:51:50.825 --> 00:51:53.964
So it's kinda like a state by state energy provider by provider.
727
00:51:55.720 --> 00:52:02.220
And and I don't know if that means that these plans are already set up and you just need to call and ask for it. They're trying to hide it from you probably,
728
00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:04.940
or if that means that it is
729
00:52:14.470 --> 00:52:21.130
You had to call and talk to them and figure it out. And, like, that example I had given earlier that somebody was asking me about that sounded amazing,
730
00:52:22.244 --> 00:52:22.744
but,
731
00:52:23.445 --> 00:52:29.045
like, who would've who would've guess that they'd offer you 5¢ a kilowatt hour, 21 days
732
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:35.819
or 21 hours a day on weekdays, but then they charge you 36¢ a kilowatt hour
733
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:43.285
for the other 3 hours a day. Like, that's just such an absurd plan, but that's that's offered to residential in that area.
734
00:52:43.744 --> 00:52:51.039
Yeah. I I it might have been the same person. Somebody was telling me about that. They run for 80 what, 21 hours and just turn it off.
735
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:59.065
Yeah. Basically, they're building the demand response incentives in So it's like the same kind of structure as ERCOT
736
00:52:59.845 --> 00:53:03.305
that miners are using at large scales, like 100 of megawatts.
737
00:53:04.110 --> 00:53:12.995
But instead they're like building it in so that you're incentivized to shut off when they need the power for other people and you're incentivized to consume when they have excess
738
00:53:13.715 --> 00:53:18.695
supply. So they're just, like, incentivizing you to be a just demand response resource for them.
739
00:53:19.075 --> 00:53:22.695
It it like, it's actually kinda smart. I didn't know that that was a thing.
740
00:53:23.310 --> 00:53:25.090
I was a differential scale.
741
00:53:25.470 --> 00:53:38.905
When I've been talking to a lot of people about this, like, just kinda thinking this through, you know, let's say you get home and it's time to cook dinner or something, and you go and you turn on your electric oven. Like, you would almost want to turn off a minor to offset
742
00:53:39.205 --> 00:53:39.705
that,
743
00:53:40.680 --> 00:53:43.020
added electricity cost when you turn on the oven,
744
00:53:43.720 --> 00:53:49.805
so that you're not you're not running that oven for 10 minutes and then getting charged as if that was running 247.
745
00:53:52.105 --> 00:53:56.660
And then, yeah, that that's, like, the demand response that you're talking about. And then just because,
746
00:53:57.220 --> 00:54:05.435
CryptoClocks is in the chat, I keep hounding him, telling him that him that he needs to take his mining and printing operation and find a peak power setup because,
747
00:54:05.895 --> 00:54:07.835
like, if his miners are running 247,
748
00:54:08.535 --> 00:54:10.715
like, that's a lot of power that adds up.
749
00:54:11.220 --> 00:54:11.880
And then
750
00:54:12.260 --> 00:54:17.640
his miners and his printers are running 247. Like, that's kind of a match made in heaven where
751
00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:20.440
the peak power is perfect for something like that.
752
00:54:21.375 --> 00:54:23.234
They came out and boosted our
753
00:54:23.615 --> 00:54:24.435
our drop.
754
00:54:25.135 --> 00:54:30.435
Like, the the amount of power that they're willing to drop to us, they were they did it for free
755
00:54:30.869 --> 00:54:36.250
because they want they want people they put in the whole new service and everything for us
756
00:54:36.710 --> 00:54:37.210
because
757
00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:39.530
you're a customer.
758
00:54:40.115 --> 00:54:45.974
You're a customer, and they know that they can sell you electric, and you just tell them what you're doing,
759
00:54:46.515 --> 00:54:53.780
and you level with them. And they're gonna actually protect you then after that too because now you're a customer that's buying their electric from them,
760
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:55.535
and they're not
761
00:54:56.895 --> 00:54:58.015
they don't have any
762
00:54:58.815 --> 00:54:59.635
there's no
763
00:55:00.015 --> 00:55:04.434
incentive for them to, like, go and be like, oh, yeah. These guys are doing this,
764
00:55:04.770 --> 00:55:05.270
and
765
00:55:05.730 --> 00:55:09.110
I don't know if they're paying their taxes or not or whatever, which we are.
766
00:55:10.530 --> 00:55:15.985
But, like, you're kinda they they'll protect you because they want your money. They're just like any other business.
767
00:55:18.205 --> 00:55:22.385
Kind of, like, going off of this, I don't I'd like to hear your story on this, Ronan.
768
00:55:23.680 --> 00:55:26.740
When when I was looking at my bill, there's there's parts in there that,
769
00:55:29.520 --> 00:55:34.635
there's there's incentives or discounts where if you are heating your house with an electric heater
770
00:55:35.495 --> 00:55:40.619
or if you are heating like, doing an electric water heater, you can get discount from that.
771
00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:48.619
And I think I heard that you somehow negotiated with them that you are heating your house with electric heater,
772
00:55:49.335 --> 00:55:53.195
which we all know you're just trying to set your house on fire with minors in the basement.
773
00:55:53.975 --> 00:55:58.609
Yeah. No. That wasn't even that wasn't even a negotiation. That was one of those times where I just,
774
00:55:59.230 --> 00:56:01.010
I called the local power utility.
775
00:56:01.710 --> 00:56:02.690
I got a condo,
776
00:56:02.990 --> 00:56:06.425
doesn't take much to heat, threw a couple s nines in there,
777
00:56:06.805 --> 00:56:08.405
called them and I said, hey. I'm gonna be,
778
00:56:08.965 --> 00:56:12.825
using electric space heaters all the way along. And they're like, well,
779
00:56:13.510 --> 00:56:21.690
how much natural gas are you gonna be using? I was rehabbing the place at the time, so I said 0. And they're like, oh, we're all yeah. That's totally fine.
780
00:56:21.995 --> 00:56:22.655
But then,
781
00:56:25.035 --> 00:56:27.935
I asked them and I go, well, what? Because I have a gas stove,
782
00:56:28.555 --> 00:56:29.295
the gas
783
00:56:29.839 --> 00:56:30.579
water heater,
784
00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:37.780
and I said, well, it gets really cold in Minnesota, so what happens if my furnace has to kick on? And they go, we'll see that.
785
00:56:38.174 --> 00:56:45.954
We'll see that, and we'll we can match that with what the temperature was out that day. We'll know what you're using gas on and the quantity of gas you're using.
786
00:56:47.049 --> 00:56:50.270
And from what we can tell is your electric use is stable
787
00:56:50.730 --> 00:56:51.470
and regular,
788
00:56:52.089 --> 00:56:55.995
so we'll drop your electric rate down to 6¢ a kilowatt
789
00:56:56.695 --> 00:56:57.435
hour between
790
00:56:57.895 --> 00:56:58.395
October
791
00:56:59.735 --> 00:57:00.235
May.
792
00:57:01.095 --> 00:57:04.875
So there you go. You got half the year, more than half the year,
793
00:57:05.710 --> 00:57:15.515
that you get 6¢ a kilowatt hour. And that that includes everything. Your television running, your fans, everything that you have going on in your house, all the electric you use also gets dropped too, but
794
00:57:16.775 --> 00:57:20.714
mainly Yeah. I haven't ran these numbers, but what you're looking at on the screen is is,
795
00:57:21.174 --> 00:57:25.260
the same residential bill, but then they they have their their rates for space heating.
796
00:57:26.120 --> 00:57:31.180
It's about the same. It's, like, coming out to 17¢ a kilowatt hour, a little bit above. Right?
797
00:57:32.555 --> 00:57:34.575
But if you look at the colder,
798
00:57:35.035 --> 00:57:40.095
like, November through May, it looks like a lot of it drops. And Oh, it drops significantly.
799
00:57:40.875 --> 00:57:41.375
Yeah.
800
00:57:41.994 --> 00:57:44.480
Then Then you're looking at, like, 11¢ a kilowatt hour.
801
00:57:44.780 --> 00:57:48.800
And those are also times that gas prices would normally be going up.
802
00:57:49.315 --> 00:57:58.279
So you're also eliminating that because you're not running your natural gas furnace. So that's a whole other expense that you no longer have. So, I mean, you're saving on 2
803
00:57:58.660 --> 00:57:59.480
different fronts.
804
00:58:07.005 --> 00:58:07.405
In in,
805
00:58:08.684 --> 00:58:20.470
Boulder, in your experience, I mean, is it is it, like, just a general rule of thumb? Like, the the electricity provider just wants you to use energy. Like, all these incentives are saying, don't use gas, use our electricity.
806
00:58:23.135 --> 00:58:25.395
I mean, it's in their best interest. It's
807
00:58:25.695 --> 00:58:28.035
you're incentivized to just, like, burn through
808
00:58:28.495 --> 00:58:32.420
their electricity that they're providing you. I don't know if there's any, like, anomalies to
809
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:37.220
that. No. That's that's what I've seen. I mean, I haven't studied too far into it, but I'll
810
00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:40.740
definitely talk to somebody I know who works for the utility company
811
00:58:41.055 --> 00:58:46.675
now that I know some more of the specifics of the questions you guys are looking into. But I definitely know some people who work
812
00:58:46.975 --> 00:58:49.955
for the local power companies in this area and work with metering
813
00:58:51.059 --> 00:58:52.839
and familiar with that. So I'll definitely
814
00:58:53.380 --> 00:58:57.240
maybe they if you guys have another one of these, I could bring them on, but we'll see.
815
00:58:58.075 --> 00:59:00.095
And I I also be curious
816
00:59:01.035 --> 00:59:12.849
if, like, if there is a room for negotiation in any of these because I I I just kinda think that these companies have a, you know, have a file on their desktop that they open up and say, well, yeah, we can give you this, this, this, and this.
817
00:59:13.869 --> 00:59:22.275
Yeah. It seems like with this person, it'd definitely be a good one to to find that out because she she works with them. So it definitely be could could could start to get some information on that.
818
00:59:24.500 --> 00:59:27.799
And they're usually very willing to help. Every time I've ever called anyone,
819
00:59:28.099 --> 00:59:29.640
whether it be to get a new
820
00:59:30.260 --> 00:59:31.915
a new service drop that's
821
00:59:32.395 --> 00:59:34.815
twice or three times the size of what we have
822
00:59:35.355 --> 00:59:35.855
or
823
00:59:36.395 --> 00:59:41.295
just try to see if they have any residential deals that they're willing to offer. Like,
824
00:59:41.810 --> 00:59:45.030
they'll just pull it up and look at it and help you out. They don't
825
00:59:45.810 --> 00:59:54.695
they don't care. They like talking about this type of stuff, so it's it's easy. Even if you don't know, even if you haven't done the research online yourself to figure out what you're asking for,
826
00:59:55.075 --> 00:59:55.575
they'll
827
00:59:55.955 --> 00:59:57.335
they'll tell you what's available.
828
00:59:59.590 --> 01:00:05.770
Yeah. I mean, that's how I found out how to read the the freaking bill. They they just, like I called them up and they broke it down for me.
829
01:00:09.415 --> 01:00:15.435
Some BTC pins actually sent me a link that shows the diff the difference between capacity and non capacity.
830
01:00:17.470 --> 01:00:20.210
I can share it, but I'll read it off real quick.
831
01:00:23.070 --> 01:00:23.570
Forward.
832
01:00:26.035 --> 01:00:28.055
Where we at? Okay. So it says,
833
01:00:29.555 --> 01:00:32.695
power supply charge. A portion of the cost of generating
834
01:00:33.075 --> 01:00:37.820
the energy that you used to power all the lights and appliances in your home.
835
01:00:38.520 --> 01:00:43.980
Your power supply charge was previously presented as one line item beginning in May 2018.
836
01:00:44.585 --> 01:00:45.325
Your power
837
01:00:45.785 --> 01:00:46.184
supply,
838
01:00:46.585 --> 01:00:51.244
charge was split into 2 line items labeled as capacity and non capacity charges on the bill.
839
01:00:52.240 --> 01:00:57.700
This follows Michigan's new energy policy and will allow DTE to charge elect Electric Choice customers
840
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:05.075
for their portion of capacity costs without impacting the customers. So it seems like it's just a way to split it for their own,
841
01:01:05.714 --> 01:01:06.214
accounting.
842
01:01:08.610 --> 01:01:12.630
Non non capacity is variable and capacity is fixed.
843
01:01:13.410 --> 01:01:14.630
Oh, yep. Okay.
844
01:01:16.895 --> 01:01:20.595
I'm I'm just reading from what you read from, but that's the TLDR.
845
01:01:24.070 --> 01:01:27.210
I think they try and make these bills as complicated as possible.
846
01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:36.085
And it depends on what level you're working Like, residential, you you're not gonna get away with a whole lot of
847
01:01:37.185 --> 01:01:41.369
mess around. They'll tell you what you can get. You move up to commercial.
848
01:01:41.670 --> 01:01:45.770
Okay. If you're using a little more than typical commercial or you're using it
849
01:01:46.470 --> 01:01:47.609
on a more regular
850
01:01:48.674 --> 01:01:52.295
regular time frame. Like, you can actually tell them, I'm gonna use this much
851
01:01:52.595 --> 01:01:58.040
over this period of time, then they'll do something for you. And then you move up to industrial,
852
01:01:58.900 --> 01:01:59.640
it's like,
853
01:02:01.220 --> 01:02:05.115
the sky's the limit. They don't even care. They're like, alright. Give me $20,000
854
01:02:05.655 --> 01:02:07.675
a month, and we don't care what you use.
855
01:02:08.535 --> 01:02:11.355
Did you were you able to run so you
856
01:02:11.700 --> 01:02:27.015
you are running 2 meters at your house as I understand, and you just have, like, a separate area with a separate meter. And so when you called them up, they just installed a separate business meter for you? No. No. No. It went it actually, it went a weird way.
857
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:32.100
Was there was a pole barn on the property with a service to it first,
858
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:33.700
which had its own meter,
859
01:02:34.080 --> 01:02:34.820
and then
860
01:02:35.865 --> 01:02:37.805
a house was built on it afterwards.
861
01:02:38.185 --> 01:02:40.205
And they're required by law
862
01:02:40.585 --> 01:02:42.925
to run a meter to the house
863
01:02:43.590 --> 01:02:46.330
or run a service to the house and put in its new meter.
864
01:02:47.110 --> 01:02:51.850
But it was only because it went in that order where we allowed 2
865
01:02:52.954 --> 01:02:54.734
meters on the same property.
866
01:02:55.355 --> 01:03:00.974
Because, otherwise, it has to be a dual residence. Like, the only way you could get other otherwise, like, only, like, a duplex
867
01:03:01.780 --> 01:03:02.920
could get 2 drops.
868
01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:09.080
Like, they won't run a separate meter out to your pole barn if your pole barn was built after your house.
869
01:03:10.155 --> 01:03:11.135
Does that make sense?
870
01:03:12.235 --> 01:03:19.720
Yeah. I think so. I've heard I've heard stories of people being able to get 2 meters ran at their house. I don't I don't think If you have some kind of farm implementation
871
01:03:20.339 --> 01:03:21.480
or you actually
872
01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:27.984
are running a business off of your property as well, then you can get it. But just as a straight residential,
873
01:03:28.285 --> 01:03:29.105
you can't.
874
01:03:30.045 --> 01:03:33.105
And so the only thing we did was we took the existing
875
01:03:33.484 --> 01:03:34.464
I think it was
876
01:03:35.160 --> 01:03:41.819
100 amp or something like that that was going to the pole barn, and we just boosted it as high as they would let us go.
877
01:03:42.200 --> 01:03:44.299
And then since it's all run underground,
878
01:03:44.925 --> 01:03:50.224
all the white like, we did it it's called a drop, but it's not a drop because it was all run underground.
879
01:03:51.325 --> 01:03:55.099
And they were like, yeah. We're not replacing the wires. It's too expensive.
880
01:03:56.280 --> 01:04:00.060
We'll do it for free, but we're not play replacing the underground wires.
881
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:01.339
But we will
882
01:04:01.960 --> 01:04:03.820
come out if it burns up
883
01:04:04.715 --> 01:04:08.735
and replace it for free. Otherwise, you can otherwise, you can up
884
01:04:09.435 --> 01:04:10.895
up the service now,
885
01:04:11.640 --> 01:04:14.860
and you have to pay for it. And we're just like, yeah.
886
01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:17.500
Fuck it. We'll burn it up.
887
01:04:19.685 --> 01:04:20.585
I know that,
888
01:04:21.845 --> 01:04:25.945
at least from my understanding, it's pretty easy to get, like, a business
889
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:32.980
meter installed. Like, if you're trying to do something in your garage, you can have them come out and install a
890
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:34.819
a 200 amp service.
891
01:04:35.965 --> 01:04:44.225
But I don't know what the requirements are for that business. Like, you just need to have an LLC or, like, whatever whole structure. Has to be a detached building.
892
01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:46.340
It can't be attached to your home.
893
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:51.840
That yeah. That's one that's been,
894
01:04:52.885 --> 01:04:53.625
I've been
895
01:04:54.485 --> 01:04:55.445
wondering about.
896
01:04:55.925 --> 01:05:01.465
I don't know how that works because, a lot of these these good deals, these peak power deals that I'm talking about,
897
01:05:02.190 --> 01:05:05.089
the best ones are in their their business rates.
898
01:05:06.269 --> 01:05:11.410
And so you'd have to have your own meter or, like, convince them that you are a business of some sort.
899
01:05:12.155 --> 01:05:16.095
Yep. You'd have to register it as a as a business. It would have to be
900
01:05:16.875 --> 01:05:22.470
a detached building. Like, if you had a detached garage or something like that, you could do it like that.
901
01:05:23.250 --> 01:05:26.070
But it has to both be physically detached
902
01:05:26.370 --> 01:05:31.075
and also be on a totally different like, under an LLC of some sort or something
903
01:05:33.075 --> 01:05:35.175
like that. Okay. And I wonder if that's state by state.
904
01:05:36.435 --> 01:05:38.935
It probably is. I I'm not sure,
905
01:05:39.290 --> 01:05:40.590
I guess, I'm not sure
906
01:05:40.890 --> 01:05:46.650
if there's any more questions or comments on the PPA, but I I guess I have something that we could dive into that I think,
907
01:05:47.615 --> 01:05:49.875
Daniel might have some good comments on.
908
01:05:50.414 --> 01:05:51.155
He does.
909
01:05:51.615 --> 01:05:54.755
So so looking through the different offers that
910
01:05:56.319 --> 01:05:58.500
show up on my energy plan,
911
01:05:58.960 --> 01:06:03.619
one of them is, like, your your peak off peak power. And what this means is that,
912
01:06:04.484 --> 01:06:05.625
you know, if you're running
913
01:06:06.565 --> 01:06:08.825
if you're running a miner at night,
914
01:06:09.845 --> 01:06:14.860
it's gonna be a cheaper energy rate than if you run it during the day. And that's that's,
915
01:06:15.180 --> 01:06:16.240
to pretty much incentivize
916
01:06:17.180 --> 01:06:19.600
grid balancing, like we were just talking about,
917
01:06:20.285 --> 01:06:22.225
because they know that everyone's gonna be
918
01:06:22.685 --> 01:06:24.385
at home on the weekends or
919
01:06:24.765 --> 01:06:32.420
whatever during the day, running showers, whatever, getting ready for work. But at night, when everyone's sleeping, all the lights are off, everything off is not a lot of power demand.
920
01:06:34.650 --> 01:06:35.145
And
921
01:06:35.705 --> 01:06:46.650
I guess when people see this, like, a lot of the times, they're like, well, I'll just run my my miner at night, and I'll turn it off during the day, and I'll max I'll just maximize the cheapest power that I can get
922
01:06:47.190 --> 01:06:48.490
and go from there.
923
01:06:49.270 --> 01:06:55.244
I think Dan knows where I'm going with us, but he wrote, he wrote an article on this that I think would be interesting to to talk through.
924
01:06:57.305 --> 01:07:00.810
Yeah. Perfect setup for the firmware show. I was waiting for it.
925
01:07:02.810 --> 01:07:03.310
So,
926
01:07:04.330 --> 01:07:04.830
basically,
927
01:07:05.130 --> 01:07:07.230
in in that scenario that you were describing,
928
01:07:07.984 --> 01:07:11.204
I don't think in most cases that it would make sense
929
01:07:11.585 --> 01:07:15.445
for you to actually shut off the miners during the more expensive time periods.
930
01:07:15.984 --> 01:07:16.645
I think,
931
01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:19.740
using a firmware like BrainsOS Plus
932
01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:21.180
more strategically
933
01:07:22.120 --> 01:07:28.465
is a really good way to become competitive with the larger scale miners even when you you don't have,
934
01:07:29.325 --> 01:07:33.700
the benefit of cheaper electricity like they do. And what I
935
01:07:34.579 --> 01:07:37.000
basically the the idea would be
936
01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:41.000
you play the efficiency game when your electricity is more expensive
937
01:07:41.425 --> 01:07:44.484
and you just maximize your hash rate when it's less expensive.
938
01:07:45.025 --> 01:07:48.325
So during those those nighttime hours, you would overclock
939
01:07:49.070 --> 01:07:53.170
with brains OS plus. Like, for example, with an s nine, you do it,
940
01:07:53.630 --> 01:07:54.770
maybe 1400
941
01:07:55.070 --> 01:07:57.250
watts. You might get 17 terahash
942
01:07:58.005 --> 01:07:59.145
per s 9.
943
01:07:59.845 --> 01:08:04.105
And then during the daytime hours when your electricity is more expensive,
944
01:08:04.405 --> 01:08:06.980
you would do the opposite. You would undervolt it
945
01:08:07.540 --> 01:08:08.359
down to
946
01:08:08.980 --> 01:08:09.880
maybe about
947
01:08:10.180 --> 01:08:11.800
800 or 900 watts,
948
01:08:12.740 --> 01:08:13.800
and you would determine
949
01:08:14.475 --> 01:08:19.135
the the right power setting. You just experiment with some different settings with every machine,
950
01:08:19.595 --> 01:08:24.920
and the auto tuning process would kinda find what's optimal. So maybe some s nines, you would have,
951
01:08:25.320 --> 01:08:29.660
800 watts would be perfect, whereas other ones, 900 watts would be perfect.
952
01:08:30.515 --> 01:08:35.735
That's just gonna vary from machine to machine. But at the end of the day, what you would do is just,
953
01:08:36.195 --> 01:08:37.335
you would go for
954
01:08:38.270 --> 01:08:47.864
trying to get down to, like, 75 watts per tera hash with the kind of maximum efficiency that you can get from an s nine when your electricity is more expensive.
955
01:08:48.324 --> 01:08:49.145
And that way,
956
01:08:49.764 --> 01:08:57.570
you're consuming less electricity overall, so your total cost is lower. And then you're also running out of more efficient power setting.
957
01:08:57.949 --> 01:08:59.489
So then your amount of
958
01:08:59.790 --> 01:09:03.330
your your profit margin basically during that time is better.
959
01:09:03.715 --> 01:09:12.535
And then when you have that cheap off peak power, you just wanna maximize the amount of BTC that you mine, and you don't care as much about how much power you're consuming
960
01:09:13.030 --> 01:09:17.530
because it's not gonna cost you as much. So then you change your power settings to
961
01:09:18.070 --> 01:09:18.570
overclocking,
962
01:09:18.950 --> 01:09:22.175
and you could just have a couple of Python scripts that automatically do
963
01:09:22.475 --> 01:09:23.215
this, like,
964
01:09:23.995 --> 01:09:28.094
at 8 PM, increase power input to 1400 watts.
965
01:09:28.530 --> 01:09:37.030
At 6 AM or whatever it is, decrease power input to 800 watts, and you could automate the whole thing so that you play the peak off peak,
966
01:09:37.725 --> 01:09:38.225
power,
967
01:09:39.565 --> 01:09:40.705
pricing differently,
968
01:09:41.245 --> 01:09:44.685
and you maximize for efficiency when when you need the,
969
01:09:45.860 --> 01:09:52.280
the lower to lower your electricity bills and you mash maximize for hash rate when you wanna mine more BTC on cheaper power.
970
01:09:53.355 --> 01:09:57.855
And then since you're not turning them off and turning them back on again, you're not running into that same,
971
01:09:59.195 --> 01:10:01.410
the Swipe span. Yeah. Exactly.
972
01:10:01.790 --> 01:10:04.610
Yep. That's that's a huge part even for,
973
01:10:05.070 --> 01:10:06.690
I think, the demand response
974
01:10:06.990 --> 01:10:13.395
resource, the miners that are doing this at larger scales, like in the the dozens of megawatts or even the 100 of megawatts.
975
01:10:14.495 --> 01:10:15.155
If they're
976
01:10:15.650 --> 01:10:19.830
participating in demand response programs where they're shutting off every single day,
977
01:10:21.170 --> 01:10:24.230
they'd probably make a lot of money to shut off.
978
01:10:24.685 --> 01:10:27.905
So most of the time, they're going to be incentivized to just completely
979
01:10:28.284 --> 01:10:31.185
stop consuming power for whatever amount of time that that,
980
01:10:31.645 --> 01:10:34.710
that that they can get paid so much by the utility,
981
01:10:35.570 --> 01:10:36.710
for not consuming.
982
01:10:37.410 --> 01:10:46.905
But when you factor in lifespan, which we don't know exactly what the impact of cons consistently shutting on and off does, but,
983
01:10:48.660 --> 01:10:57.640
it could be rather significant. And in that case, then it might make more sense to just decrease the power input per machine as low as it can possibly be,
984
01:10:58.014 --> 01:11:00.355
but keeps them running so that you don't actually
985
01:11:00.735 --> 01:11:09.880
you don't deal with the thermal cycling where the machine shuts off completely and then it cools off and then it turns on and heats back up and the and the silicone gets,
986
01:11:10.420 --> 01:11:15.145
expanded and retracted and expanded and retracted and eventually that wears on it.
987
01:11:17.065 --> 01:11:21.325
So, yeah, it's I think, like, every single operation is gonna have different
988
01:11:21.945 --> 01:11:32.595
requirements for that, but but there's so much room for optimization in terms of how you consume energy at at different times of the day depending on the amount of energy you have available and the price.
989
01:11:33.875 --> 01:11:37.895
My understanding is my understanding is that's why, like, a lot of the s seventeens
990
01:11:38.435 --> 01:11:45.620
had issues is because, you know, they'd turn off and that that excess heat sitting there would just not get dissipated and it would,
991
01:11:46.420 --> 01:11:48.120
eat through a lot of the thermal paste,
992
01:11:49.305 --> 01:12:05.310
holding the They were just shit weren't they just shit pieces of hardware? They were shit pieces of hardware. You get them brand new out of the box. You take a fan off. You could pour the heat sinks out of them. Brand new from the factory line. They were garbage. I think it was really bad paste or they use something different.
993
01:12:05.690 --> 01:12:07.630
They yeah. They changed from
994
01:12:08.765 --> 01:12:16.545
can't remember if it was, like, thermal glue to thermal paste or what, but they they basically used a much cheaper material to attach the heat sinks to the hash boards.
995
01:12:17.300 --> 01:12:21.320
And then heat sinks kept falling off or they just weren't as thermally conductive.
996
01:12:21.940 --> 01:12:29.995
And so, like, it was anticipating, and then the machines overheat and that Yeah. So kinds of problems. They're a piece of shit. So, Daniel,
997
01:12:30.935 --> 01:12:32.955
on on serial dispatch 38,
998
01:12:34.619 --> 01:12:37.520
we had Yan on. We talked at length about Brains,
999
01:12:37.900 --> 01:12:40.080
this custom firmware you guys ship,
1000
01:12:41.745 --> 01:12:43.364
that makes your Bitmain miners,
1001
01:12:44.065 --> 01:12:45.285
significantly better.
1002
01:12:49.745 --> 01:12:50.245
But
1003
01:12:50.700 --> 01:12:52.400
I come from the perspective
1004
01:12:52.940 --> 01:12:53.840
that microbt,
1005
01:12:54.300 --> 01:12:54.800
WhatsMiners
1006
01:12:55.260 --> 01:12:55.760
are
1007
01:12:56.460 --> 01:12:57.600
just better hardware.
1008
01:13:00.185 --> 01:13:01.085
Where do you stand
1009
01:13:01.784 --> 01:13:02.925
in terms of,
1010
01:13:03.225 --> 01:13:05.565
like, evaluating the equation between
1011
01:13:06.905 --> 01:13:10.929
buying Bitmain hardware specifically so you can run brains on it
1012
01:13:11.389 --> 01:13:11.889
versus
1013
01:13:13.309 --> 01:13:14.530
investing in microbt,
1014
01:13:14.909 --> 01:13:18.364
what's miners, and just hoping that you guys ship brains eventually.
1015
01:13:20.344 --> 01:13:23.324
Yeah. The when what's minor thing has become,
1016
01:13:23.784 --> 01:13:25.965
somewhat painful meme at this point.
1017
01:13:26.900 --> 01:13:27.460
Like, we
1018
01:13:28.660 --> 01:13:36.040
we're so close, but we've I've I've thought that for a long time, so I don't wanna say anything. It's still it's just Soon TM.
1019
01:13:36.955 --> 01:13:40.015
Okay. So you should just wing it and buy a What's Minor?
1020
01:13:40.955 --> 01:13:41.775
Yeah. I
1021
01:13:42.315 --> 01:13:45.375
at least on the on the m 21 and the m 20,
1022
01:13:45.740 --> 01:13:47.120
which is the mid generation,
1023
01:13:47.660 --> 01:13:49.360
I think that we will have those
1024
01:13:50.140 --> 01:13:50.800
soon, TM.
1025
01:13:51.900 --> 01:13:56.465
We I as far as I know, we already have it hashing. The firmware is hashing on
1026
01:13:56.765 --> 01:13:59.985
m 30 and m 31, m 30 plus s plus
1027
01:14:00.765 --> 01:14:03.585
as well. But I I would imagine that it's
1028
01:14:04.240 --> 01:14:10.420
like, once we get the m 20 and m 21 out, it will probably still be a few months before we get
1029
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:15.215
the new generation stuff out. So if you're buying the new gen stuff, then
1030
01:14:15.915 --> 01:14:17.135
I, like, optimistically
1031
01:14:18.395 --> 01:14:22.335
end of q one. But I shouldn't even say anything like that. Like, just,
1032
01:14:23.440 --> 01:14:26.980
it'll it'll be a few months. Yeah. Yeah. 2 weeks. Exactly.
1033
01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:29.620
I saw the
1034
01:14:30.315 --> 01:14:30.815
CryptoCloaks
1035
01:14:31.195 --> 01:14:33.454
asked about s 19 j, and
1036
01:14:34.315 --> 01:14:36.335
I don't know if we have the j
1037
01:14:36.770 --> 01:14:40.870
as part of this, but I do know that we're very close on the s 19 j Pro,
1038
01:14:41.570 --> 01:14:42.630
which I think
1039
01:14:43.090 --> 01:14:47.735
when we in our next firmware build that we release, I think we will have
1040
01:14:48.195 --> 01:14:52.695
a more stable build for s 19, t 19, and s 19 pro,
1041
01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:55.600
which are already in public beta right now.
1042
01:14:56.060 --> 01:15:00.239
But we'll also include, I think, a beta for the
1043
01:15:00.780 --> 01:15:02.320
s 19 j pro.
1044
01:15:02.805 --> 01:15:04.745
Hopefully, that also includes s 19j.
1045
01:15:05.205 --> 01:15:09.625
You think these mining manufacturers will ever improve their naming scheme, or are we just fucked?
1046
01:15:10.005 --> 01:15:10.505
No.
1047
01:15:11.219 --> 01:15:13.320
I wish that they would also just stop
1048
01:15:13.780 --> 01:15:19.239
producing so many random variants and just have, like, 1 or 2 things That drives me nuts.
1049
01:15:19.735 --> 01:15:23.355
I have There's a new one. Yeah. I have an m 3246
1050
01:15:24.454 --> 01:15:51.989
Tera Hash. I have m 32 62 Tera Hash. I have m 32 68 Tera Hash. Like It gets to the point where you don't even know what miners you own. You have to, like, go check. Yeah. Literally have no idea anymore. I have to go and take Our, like, our lawyers are clients, and we're trying to get them the firmware. And it's like, we have to ask so many questions just to figure out which firmware to give them because it's like, which control board version do you have? Which EPROM chip is on the control board?
1051
01:15:52.290 --> 01:16:03.594
Do you have the 96 Tera Hash version or the or the 100 terahash version? Or is it the 102 terahash version? Or do you actually have, like, the j and you just told us it was the base model, but but that's because you were,
1052
01:16:04.370 --> 01:16:21.155
you didn't realize how how much complication that there is involved with, like, each individual subvariant has slightly different architecture that we have to account for. And, yeah, it's it's it's such a mess. What's minor, I think, is a little bit better than Bitmain because Bitmain,
1053
01:16:21.775 --> 01:16:22.275
like,
1054
01:16:23.330 --> 01:16:24.310
there's at least,
1055
01:16:25.330 --> 01:16:25.990
I think,
1056
01:16:26.610 --> 01:16:29.750
9 or 10 different subvariants of the s 19 already,
1057
01:16:30.370 --> 01:16:34.284
if not more. And there was just, like, a random s 19 a.
1058
01:16:34.585 --> 01:16:39.485
I just saw that 1 or 2 I don't know what that is. Idea what that is. Even know what that is?
1059
01:16:40.199 --> 01:16:46.840
Nope. It see it seems to be the same terra hash as something else. But then even with Bitmain, like, the m thirties have
1060
01:16:47.935 --> 01:16:52.995
am I correct that the m thirties have higher terror hash than the m 30 ones? Means?
1061
01:16:53.615 --> 01:16:58.230
Yeah. Yeah. M 31 is is kind of the equivalence of the, like, t 19.
1062
01:16:58.930 --> 01:17:01.750
Whereas But, like, that doesn't make any sense. The number's higher.
1063
01:17:02.290 --> 01:17:05.110
The model number's higher, but the terra hash is less.
1064
01:17:05.585 --> 01:17:09.845
Yeah. Same with the m 21 and m 20. The m 20 is a better machine.
1065
01:17:10.385 --> 01:17:13.365
It It's like the I use the leftover chips.
1066
01:17:13.770 --> 01:17:15.309
I think that's what I have. 46
1067
01:17:16.409 --> 01:17:17.789
Terahash m 32.
1068
01:17:18.170 --> 01:17:22.110
Everyone I've had has failed. It's the only WhatsMyers I've ever had that failed.
1069
01:17:22.795 --> 01:17:24.094
With the m 30 twos?
1070
01:17:24.555 --> 01:17:26.815
The m 30 two's 46 Terahash.
1071
01:17:27.435 --> 01:17:29.775
I didn't even know the m 32 existed.
1072
01:17:30.240 --> 01:17:31.380
I think that the M32
1073
01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:35.940
actually kind of belongs in the M 20 generation. From, like, what I've
1074
01:17:36.240 --> 01:17:48.270
read about it, it sounded like the M30 generation is really like M30, M30 s or M30 s, M30 s plus, M30 s plus plus, m 31 and m 31 s plus.
1075
01:17:48.650 --> 01:17:55.455
But the m 32 is made with the same chips. I might be wrong about this, but I think it's made with the same chips as the m 20
1076
01:17:56.235 --> 01:17:56.735
generation.
1077
01:17:57.595 --> 01:17:59.775
But for some reason, it's named m 32.
1078
01:18:00.075 --> 01:18:06.670
Do you have any idea exactly how they decide what is what? Because I heard, and I mean, this is just absolutely
1079
01:18:07.449 --> 01:18:08.750
They use a dart board.
1080
01:18:09.210 --> 01:18:19.885
No. No. No. No. No. A bunch of BYJOE and just you're saying is in the manufacturer of the chips, they get they get chips that are this and they get chips that are that. So they they they
1081
01:18:20.240 --> 01:18:34.764
decide which chips go on which boards, and then they're like, okay, these ones are closest to 46 terahash, so let's make a machine that's that. These ones are closer to 62 terahash, so let's make a machine that's like that. Because it if you've noticed, like,
1082
01:18:35.465 --> 01:18:39.110
plugging in some of these machines, like, some of them are just animals,
1083
01:18:39.650 --> 01:18:54.135
and I can't figure out why. Like, you plug in a 68 terahash m 32, the thing can sit it runs at 60 or runs at 80 terahash its entire life, and it's just fine. Like, I have no idea why this happened. They just, like, fucked it up.
1084
01:18:56.250 --> 01:18:59.550
Oh, it's because there's no there's no quality control.
1085
01:19:00.330 --> 01:19:11.135
They just the firmware is such a big value add because, like, their firmware is just the absolute same for every single model, but no model is actually the same. Like, you can get
1086
01:19:11.570 --> 01:19:16.150
2 different m 30 twos, and one of them is a workhorse and the other one is a piece of shit.
1087
01:19:16.530 --> 01:19:39.630
And, like, the firmware that that that comes on them is just gonna treat them the same. Whereas maybe you run brains on those, like, we don't have it for the m thirty two s yet, but, like, maybe for you get an an old beat up s nine that's on its last leg and you get another s 9 that's like still got 5 years left in it and brains will figure out, okay, we can give way more,
1088
01:19:40.925 --> 01:19:55.810
higher frequencies and voltages to this kind of newer s nine, and we'll give much lower to the this older s nine. And, yeah, we're not going to get as much hash rate from this older s nine, but at least we're not gonna break it, and it's it's gonna run as efficiently as it can.
1089
01:19:56.350 --> 01:19:59.695
And, like, the the firmware that comes on them is just
1090
01:20:00.494 --> 01:20:03.635
it's like treating individual little snowflakes as
1091
01:20:04.014 --> 01:20:04.994
all the same.
1092
01:20:06.255 --> 01:20:10.400
That said, from what I know, the Whatsminer firmware is actually
1093
01:20:10.860 --> 01:20:11.600
more sophisticated
1094
01:20:11.980 --> 01:20:13.200
than the Bitmain firmware.
1095
01:20:13.580 --> 01:20:16.080
But I don't know if they have, like, the
1096
01:20:16.705 --> 01:20:20.645
sophistication of figuring out optimal frequencies and voltages,
1097
01:20:20.945 --> 01:20:26.490
but there's something to do with the what's minor chips. They They only really hash effectively in certain temperature ranges.
1098
01:20:26.950 --> 01:20:28.810
So you kind of have to do some,
1099
01:20:29.190 --> 01:20:33.130
some sort of tuning process just to get them hashing in the first place
1100
01:20:33.485 --> 01:20:33.985
that
1101
01:20:34.365 --> 01:20:39.745
isn't involved with bit main. Like bit main, as long as it's above a certain temperature where,
1102
01:20:41.060 --> 01:20:45.320
where it's, like, safe to run and below a certain temperature where it becomes dangerous,
1103
01:20:45.780 --> 01:20:51.865
then they'll hash. Whereas that that effective temperature range for What's Miners is apparently a lot smaller.
1104
01:20:52.325 --> 01:21:00.239
So they have some something going on in their firmware that's that's already doing some sort of tuning. I've also seen if it it it depends on
1105
01:21:02.059 --> 01:21:05.199
what machines you're partnering your machines with.
1106
01:21:05.695 --> 01:21:08.675
The WestMiner doesn't seem to be such a big deal, but, like,
1107
01:21:10.175 --> 01:21:11.635
s 19 j
1108
01:21:12.735 --> 01:21:14.595
or an s 19 pro
1109
01:21:15.370 --> 01:21:17.550
don't work very well next to each other
1110
01:21:18.090 --> 01:21:19.290
because they have different
1111
01:21:21.130 --> 01:21:22.510
I don't know if it's temperature
1112
01:21:23.255 --> 01:21:28.635
sensors in them that will shut them down, but, like, one will be sucking in the other one's heat
1113
01:21:30.215 --> 01:21:42.445
or or however the airflow works. I can't exactly describe it, but they they will one will not run next to the other. But as soon as you replace the one with an identical model, then they're just fine.
1114
01:21:43.724 --> 01:21:55.600
Interesting. I never heard about that. Crazy. I know I know it sounds crazy, but yeah. This is why Ronan's my favorite Bitcoin miner in the space. He just, like, downs 15 White Claws and just places miners next to each other and sees what happens.
1115
01:21:56.060 --> 01:21:59.360
Yeah. Plug them all in. Let's throw let's throw a half a dozen
1116
01:21:59.675 --> 01:22:02.335
once miners next year or some s nineteens,
1117
01:22:02.955 --> 01:22:03.855
see what happens.
1118
01:22:04.395 --> 01:22:05.775
So I wanna bring,
1119
01:22:06.690 --> 01:22:08.790
BTC Boulder back into this conversation.
1120
01:22:09.489 --> 01:22:11.190
Boulder, we were talking about,
1121
01:22:13.489 --> 01:22:14.790
3 phase supply
1122
01:22:16.295 --> 01:22:22.875
before you joined. Before we even went live, we were talking about it. Neil brought it up. Ronan Miner brought it up.
1123
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:29.739
Ronan, you wanna hit him with the question that you had? I mean, I I just pulled up the question
1124
01:22:30.040 --> 01:22:30.540
that,
1125
01:22:31.880 --> 01:22:32.380
UberPwnage
1126
01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:33.500
posted.
1127
01:22:34.465 --> 01:22:38.645
He didn't actually post a question. He just said that 3 phase applies better.
1128
01:22:41.400 --> 01:22:43.980
What was your question again about 3 phase?
1129
01:22:44.760 --> 01:22:54.255
I have no idea about any of this. Yeah. Just for you to know. Do run better on 3 phase on higher voltage. Motors do run better. And I guess, is that is it for efficiency on cooling,
1130
01:22:54.635 --> 01:23:02.230
I guess, is that the biggest What is 3 phase? What are we even talking about? Is everything in a house everything in a house is 2 phase. Right?
1131
01:23:02.690 --> 01:23:11.985
Yes. No. It's single phase. Single phase. Single phase. Can you can you give them all the whole phases, but it's called single phase. Yeah. It's called single phase. There's it's 2 phases.
1132
01:23:12.540 --> 01:23:17.200
Yeah. And then so, like, everything's every leg is
1133
01:23:17.580 --> 01:23:18.960
a 120 volts.
1134
01:23:19.505 --> 01:23:22.645
So if you want if you want 2 If it's in residential.
1135
01:23:23.745 --> 01:23:31.849
Yeah. Yeah. But if you wanna run a if you wanna run a minor or a stove or something like that, you have to have you have to have 220 or 240.
1136
01:23:32.389 --> 01:23:37.290
So you have to hit both those legs. 3 phase comes in as 3 legs, and then
1137
01:23:38.135 --> 01:23:39.755
I have 3 sets of 120.
1138
01:23:40.615 --> 01:23:44.955
Yep. See but you have to balance it. You can't just tap into 1120
1139
01:23:46.390 --> 01:23:47.930
and then another 120
1140
01:23:49.590 --> 01:23:51.530
and leave the 3rd leg
1141
01:23:53.190 --> 01:23:56.375
of 120 vacant. It would just it it won't work.
1142
01:23:56.775 --> 01:23:59.755
So if you have 3 phase, you have to run 3 minors
1143
01:24:00.295 --> 01:24:12.880
or yeah. 3. And you do leg 1 and leg 2, leg 2 and leg 3, and then leg 1 and leg 3. So you get your 240 to each of those miners. But my question was,
1144
01:24:14.625 --> 01:24:16.565
what's the benefit, and
1145
01:24:18.065 --> 01:24:21.045
what's the best way to do it? I don't I don't get that.
1146
01:24:22.210 --> 01:24:28.515
Can I can I before we go into the I'm super curious about this too, but can I kinda ground people on this a little bit?
1147
01:24:29.475 --> 01:24:31.655
Yeah. I'll share it. Was that pun intended?
1148
01:24:34.275 --> 01:24:35.095
Oh, okay.
1149
01:24:36.870 --> 01:24:42.170
Alright. I'm trying to find a photo to share up here, but with United States, when you have,
1150
01:24:43.110 --> 01:24:44.490
when you have a breaker panel.
1151
01:24:44.925 --> 01:24:47.985
Big Kahuna is the worst for the the podcast,
1152
01:24:48.605 --> 01:24:53.425
listeners because he every time he comes on, he just wants to share all the photos, but I do appreciate it.
1153
01:24:53.990 --> 01:24:56.970
Man, I mean, this shit's so complicated. Like, if you're just listening,
1154
01:24:57.430 --> 01:24:59.210
I don't know what a little drawing.
1155
01:24:59.510 --> 01:25:02.330
Especially if you guys are, like, multitasking, you're probably
1156
01:25:02.725 --> 01:25:04.105
zoning out, falling asleep.
1157
01:25:05.445 --> 01:25:11.225
Anyways, so if I understand it correctly, in the United States, all your residential power is,
1158
01:25:14.230 --> 01:25:15.050
is, 110.
1159
01:25:15.750 --> 01:25:16.250
And
1160
01:25:16.870 --> 01:25:17.370
if
1161
01:25:17.670 --> 01:25:20.250
the way that works is you have your power lines
1162
01:25:20.635 --> 01:25:25.055
and you got your transformer. And I believe all the transformer is doing is it's it's
1163
01:25:25.995 --> 01:25:27.455
it's scaling down
1164
01:25:28.130 --> 01:25:33.670
the amperage so that it can bring it into your house. Because if there's too much amperage in your house Scaling down the voltage.
1165
01:25:34.290 --> 01:25:37.350
Scaling down the voltage to bring it in your house. So you got a transformer,
1166
01:25:38.855 --> 01:25:46.074
and what happens is out of this transformer is 2 wires, and these 2 wires go directly into your breaker.
1167
01:25:46.730 --> 01:25:47.230
And
1168
01:25:47.850 --> 01:25:51.070
each of those wires is a 110 and a 110.
1169
01:25:52.650 --> 01:25:53.950
To ground to ground.
1170
01:25:55.055 --> 01:26:00.915
It's a 1 it's a 110 and a 110 and a ground is what's coming in the wire. No. No. 1 no. No. 110 to ground
1171
01:26:01.670 --> 01:26:05.050
to each phase. And then when you go phase to phase, you get the
1172
01:26:05.590 --> 01:26:09.930
the 240 or the 208 depending on if it's commercial or residential.
1173
01:26:12.045 --> 01:26:21.730
Man, this is yeah. This is where I get a little bit lost. But, like, so you have the the 2 one tens in there, and then, like, you gotta pretty much combine them to make your 220,
1174
01:26:22.510 --> 01:26:27.890
or 240, I guess. And that's that's when you power your electric range, your electric,
1175
01:26:28.270 --> 01:26:28.770
oven,
1176
01:26:29.885 --> 01:26:31.025
your Bitcoin miners.
1177
01:26:32.204 --> 01:26:37.425
But when you're just doing, like, a standard outlet for your phone, it only takes one of those legs and
1178
01:26:38.190 --> 01:26:39.890
pushes that through your circuit. A neutral.
1179
01:26:40.670 --> 01:26:43.010
Yeah. 1 of those legs and a neutral back to ground.
1180
01:26:44.190 --> 01:26:47.570
Okay. So when you're doing 3 phase, you get 3
1181
01:26:48.014 --> 01:26:49.875
legs that come from your transformer.
1182
01:26:51.215 --> 01:26:53.795
Is it a 110, 110, 110? Or
1183
01:26:54.255 --> 01:26:54.755
Yes.
1184
01:26:55.210 --> 01:27:08.025
Okay. And then you just have to do some, like The ground. Yep. Yeah. Wonky shift to be more specific. Yeah. Each each phase of it each phase of it, yeah, one 120 to ground is is what it is. And then each phase to phase
1185
01:27:08.965 --> 01:27:11.304
is 240 or 208 depending.
1186
01:27:11.870 --> 01:27:16.450
I gotta interrupt you for just a second, Boulder. Just so that everyone knows this
1187
01:27:17.150 --> 01:27:19.010
do not work on this information.
1188
01:27:20.514 --> 01:27:30.000
Hire a professional electrician. This is just so you get some sort of basic understanding. But this is so you, like, you know what to talk to the electrician about. Exactly.
1189
01:27:31.820 --> 01:27:39.365
But, like, a licensed electrician is is is fairly cheap in the scheme of things and, well worth it. Do not kill yourself.
1190
01:27:41.825 --> 01:27:44.245
Yeah. It does a lot of damage to expensive equipment.
1191
01:27:48.070 --> 01:27:53.610
So if you bring in a if you bring in headset. If you bring in a licensed electrician and you
1192
01:27:54.389 --> 01:27:57.050
you tell them, yeah, okay. I have this
1193
01:27:57.895 --> 01:28:00.555
Bitcoin miner or if you wanna say like, I have this server
1194
01:28:00.935 --> 01:28:02.475
that needs 220.
1195
01:28:04.055 --> 01:28:07.510
He's gonna probably default to 2 phase. Right?
1196
01:28:10.130 --> 01:28:23.675
Whatever the equipment's running on and what it calls for in the power supply of the miner. I guess that was my original question. I think maybe Matt was alluding to when he asked me my what my question was was, what is the benefit to 3 phase?
1197
01:28:24.870 --> 01:28:25.370
Yeah.
1198
01:28:26.150 --> 01:28:28.730
It runs higher voltage runs higher efficiency.
1199
01:28:31.110 --> 01:28:32.170
Okay. So it's
1200
01:28:33.085 --> 01:28:33.745
watts divided by
1201
01:28:34.525 --> 01:28:38.385
volts equals amps. Able to get, like, if you were able to get 480
1202
01:28:38.845 --> 01:28:41.745
volt miners, it seems like that would be ideal.
1203
01:28:42.320 --> 01:28:48.500
It'd run more efficiently, but I don't think I don't I don't I haven't looked into to see if they ever make those or the power supplies or
1204
01:28:49.040 --> 01:28:50.580
No. They don't. Would entail.
1205
01:28:51.155 --> 01:28:54.275
They don't. But that's the equation that you work with is,
1206
01:28:54.835 --> 01:29:00.215
watts divided by volts equals amps. So as long as you can kick up those volts,
1207
01:29:00.650 --> 01:29:01.390
you're using
1208
01:29:02.490 --> 01:29:10.350
less amps, and amps are what you pay for in the end. Like, kilowatts are essentially just another version of amps.
1209
01:29:11.995 --> 01:29:14.975
So you're not you're not taking in the amount the quantity
1210
01:29:15.355 --> 01:29:16.735
amount of electric.
1211
01:29:17.115 --> 01:29:20.255
You're just taking it in faster, and you're taking it in
1212
01:29:22.350 --> 01:29:23.970
potentially higher. It's more efficient.
1213
01:29:24.350 --> 01:29:26.530
It's more efficient to run it at higher voltages.
1214
01:29:27.775 --> 01:29:32.355
Okay. That's what I was always wondering. Because that's why data centers all run 3 phase.
1215
01:29:32.655 --> 01:29:33.775
And then what is
1216
01:29:34.175 --> 01:29:35.635
why do I not understand
1217
01:29:37.240 --> 01:29:38.060
if it's
1218
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:39.260
208-2083
1219
01:29:40.440 --> 01:29:45.900
I guess for an example on it like, I guess one example would be, like, some massive motors that I run.
1220
01:29:46.655 --> 01:29:48.675
If they were to have the horsepower,
1221
01:29:49.375 --> 01:29:52.035
if you were doing them at a 120 volts,
1222
01:29:52.415 --> 01:29:54.275
these massive motors that are
1223
01:30:05.114 --> 01:30:09.455
Did I lose him? Oh, I was gonna say, did I freeze? No. We all lost him.
1224
01:30:12.440 --> 01:30:16.300
Big Motor didn't want him to continue his conversation. Yeah. No shit.
1225
01:30:18.199 --> 01:30:22.074
So efficiency gains. I get that. And that's why I assume
1226
01:30:22.614 --> 01:30:23.355
that's why,
1227
01:30:24.455 --> 01:30:33.510
data centers run on 3 phase. And I've talked to plenty of people that that do that, and I just never knew exactly why, and I couldn't understand
1228
01:30:34.530 --> 01:30:35.270
what the
1229
01:30:37.255 --> 01:30:42.235
what the trade offs were. I knew there had to been trade offs. Like, running single phase is easy.
1230
01:30:42.775 --> 01:30:44.155
Running 3 phase,
1231
01:30:44.810 --> 01:30:45.870
far more difficult.
1232
01:30:46.490 --> 01:30:50.430
I don't know what he what he means by efficiency gains. So, like,
1233
01:30:52.475 --> 01:30:54.895
Because because you're taking in less amps.
1234
01:30:55.435 --> 01:31:05.320
I mean, if you're just looking at p equals IV, right, you have a much higher voltage that allows you to you have a constant power. Your miner always wants to consume a certain amount of power.
1235
01:31:05.780 --> 01:31:09.239
You have your higher voltage that gives you a lower amperage draw.
1236
01:31:10.435 --> 01:31:12.215
So I assume that means you can have,
1237
01:31:12.755 --> 01:31:13.494
much lower
1238
01:31:14.835 --> 01:31:15.735
amp breakers.
1239
01:31:17.474 --> 01:31:21.070
Yeah. You're you're you're you're consuming less power
1240
01:31:21.450 --> 01:31:26.270
because power is actually measured in a ounce, not volts or anything like that. Like, your consumption
1241
01:31:27.155 --> 01:31:29.895
doesn't matter how many volts you can sum consume.
1242
01:31:30.675 --> 01:31:38.120
It's measuring how many amps you consume. That's what you're paying for. Boulder's back now. What's what's up Boulder? We lost you there.
1243
01:31:40.020 --> 01:31:44.360
What what are you calling out? We lost you when you were saying if you're running a big motor.
1244
01:31:47.085 --> 01:31:49.725
It it's running more efficiently at at the higher,
1245
01:31:51.645 --> 01:31:55.500
voltage, but it's still as much as you're getting charged is the the kilowatt
1246
01:31:56.199 --> 01:31:57.100
on it. But
1247
01:31:57.480 --> 01:32:02.725
it's more just the efficiency of the equipment you're running with it. I I think it's the higher voltage is where it's beneficial.
1248
01:32:03.185 --> 01:32:05.925
When you say efficiency, are you referring to a lower amperage?
1249
01:32:08.705 --> 01:32:14.090
No. The efficiency of, like, the where you're losing electricity and and delivering
1250
01:32:14.950 --> 01:32:17.450
the when it's getting before it gets used,
1251
01:32:18.150 --> 01:32:19.690
like, your loss of electricity
1252
01:32:20.285 --> 01:32:22.145
is less when you're using higher voltage
1253
01:32:22.765 --> 01:32:24.065
because you're losing it
1254
01:32:24.845 --> 01:32:26.465
via resistance and wire.
1255
01:32:27.325 --> 01:32:31.949
Let me ask this. Okay. So when you look at a miner like, if if you pull up a minor graph,
1256
01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:34.190
I don't know if I have one up.
1257
01:32:34.750 --> 01:32:45.395
You see that the tera hash just goes like like, the variance is pretty crazy. Like, if you're running a 100 terahash minor, you can see that it's going way high and way low. Is that due to inefficiencies
1258
01:32:45.775 --> 01:32:46.094
and,
1259
01:32:47.000 --> 01:32:54.860
that's just share submissions. That's the variance, like, just inherent to mining because the pool is measuring the hash rate of a miner based on,
1260
01:32:55.285 --> 01:32:59.225
like, they're only receiving maybe 1 in every few 100,000,000,000,000
1261
01:33:00.085 --> 01:33:01.945
hashes that the miner is doing.
1262
01:33:02.250 --> 01:33:06.270
And that's how the the pool can, like, validate each share that's being submitted
1263
01:33:06.650 --> 01:33:13.245
without doing the same amount of proof of work as the actual miners are doing and consuming all of that energy a second time.
1264
01:33:14.825 --> 01:33:18.365
Okay. Let me take it a step further. If I plug my phone in, am I getting,
1265
01:33:19.225 --> 01:33:19.725
like,
1266
01:33:20.849 --> 01:33:21.510
a different
1267
01:33:22.290 --> 01:33:24.469
am I getting, like, a sign wave of different,
1268
01:33:24.849 --> 01:33:29.670
voltages going through that and it's charging at different speeds depending on what's going through there?
1269
01:33:33.835 --> 01:33:34.655
You're saying
1270
01:33:35.355 --> 01:33:37.500
efficiency on what are you plugging your phone in?
1271
01:33:38.780 --> 01:33:45.360
I'm just I guess I'm just trying to understand. I I don't I don't get it. I'm gonna shut up now. It's just I think it's power loss
1272
01:33:45.985 --> 01:33:49.125
when you're delivering it at, like, higher levels of energy
1273
01:33:50.545 --> 01:33:54.005
that you're losing it. You're not getting it as much of it to the
1274
01:33:54.770 --> 01:33:56.150
actual use of it versus
1275
01:33:56.450 --> 01:33:58.470
power loss of other electrical,
1276
01:34:01.170 --> 01:34:02.390
resistance you're getting.
1277
01:34:03.075 --> 01:34:07.895
So what's the difference between those 2? Like, how many how much power are you losing
1278
01:34:08.675 --> 01:34:11.495
with 1 phase or 2 phase relative to 3 phase?
1279
01:34:14.350 --> 01:34:16.850
You're losing more when you're running at higher amperages.
1280
01:34:18.590 --> 01:34:19.890
So it's an equation.
1281
01:34:21.925 --> 01:34:25.945
Watts divided by volts equals amps. So if you wanna keep
1282
01:34:27.045 --> 01:34:28.505
your amps stable,
1283
01:34:29.060 --> 01:34:31.160
because that's the amps you need to run the machine,
1284
01:34:32.739 --> 01:34:33.239
and
1285
01:34:33.540 --> 01:34:35.320
you want to divide
1286
01:34:36.625 --> 01:34:38.565
the watts by volts
1287
01:34:38.945 --> 01:34:40.165
when you increase
1288
01:34:41.345 --> 01:34:42.165
the volts,
1289
01:34:42.705 --> 01:34:44.245
which 3 phase does,
1290
01:34:44.830 --> 01:34:46.370
then you're saving on efficiency.
1291
01:34:47.950 --> 01:34:49.010
Does that make sense?
1292
01:34:49.550 --> 01:34:55.815
Yeah. The less amperage you use, the more efficient you'll run because you're you're you're losing you're not losing it as much
1293
01:34:56.835 --> 01:34:58.375
with the electrical system.
1294
01:34:59.715 --> 01:35:00.215
Exactly.
1295
01:35:08.820 --> 01:35:09.880
Moving on.
1296
01:35:10.715 --> 01:35:12.574
Has anybody ever tried batteries
1297
01:35:12.875 --> 01:35:16.655
as far as trying to balance out whenever the electricity is more expensive
1298
01:35:17.650 --> 01:35:21.110
and trying to have it where you're charging up batteries when it's
1299
01:35:21.730 --> 01:35:25.270
the less Why won't you just run the a 6 when it's cheaper?
1300
01:35:26.155 --> 01:35:30.415
Run them. Yeah. Run the a 6 and the batteries. So you're charging the batteries and you're
1301
01:35:30.795 --> 01:35:37.000
running the a 6, then you switch over the batteries whenever it gets expensive, but you don't have to kill the a 6. You can run them full speed
1302
01:35:37.540 --> 01:35:39.000
and just switch over the battery.
1303
01:35:39.380 --> 01:35:43.560
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just get more a 6? Yeah. And you're killing the batteries
1304
01:35:44.085 --> 01:35:44.825
and your
1305
01:35:45.205 --> 01:35:49.785
those are gonna need to be replaced, and there is always storage loss.
1306
01:35:50.405 --> 01:36:01.290
So it's not one for 1. It's not like you're charging the battery up, and it's giving you back the same amount of power later. You're better off just buying more miners and running them during the cheaper times. Right? Yep. And then shutting them off.
1307
01:36:02.535 --> 01:36:04.555
Or overclocking with friends with us.
1308
01:36:05.895 --> 01:36:06.395
Yeah.
1309
01:36:09.015 --> 01:36:09.515
Yep.
1310
01:36:10.060 --> 01:36:16.239
Because, like, what's the like, the storage loss on a on, like, a typical battery is, like, insane, isn't it?
1311
01:36:17.785 --> 01:36:18.685
It's terrible.
1312
01:36:19.145 --> 01:36:21.405
That's why wind and solar don't make any sense.
1313
01:36:25.930 --> 01:36:29.390
They make a little bit more sense in a Bitcoin world though, don't they?
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:14:31 PM
Duration: 9191.262
Channels: 1
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The reason is really simple. Central banks have printed so much money that its
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value is plummeting. It's called inflation.
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So what is cryptocurrency?
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What is Bitcoin
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exactly?
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Well, we scoured the country for more than a year to find someone who could explain it to us, who really understood it, and who had skin in the game. Michael Sailor is the man we found. There's really no one better we've decided to talk to about this topic. Michael Sailor is an entrepreneur, a business executive. He's in 1,000,000,000 in Bitcoin, and he's worth listening to on the topic. By the way, his company just dropped more than $400,000,000
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on it this afternoon.
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We sat down for more than an hour with Michael Sailor for a genuinely fascinating episode of Tucker Carlson today. Here's a small part of it.
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is to the economy
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what your blood is to your body,
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and economic energy or money is to the currency
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what oxygen is to your blood.
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So
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common sense says, if I keep sucking the oxygen out of the room, if I suck the oxygen out of the room, you're gonna either suffocate or freeze to death.
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And if I keep sucking the economic energy out of the currency,
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the economy collapses.
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In the extreme,
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you get ripped back to stone age barter. Right? When the money doesn't work anymore, I have to trade you cigarette
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or bullets.
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Right. And the problem with that is is
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the economy becomes a 1000000 times less efficient. Right? If you don't have money
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now how many countries in the world have a collapsed currency?
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66
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are dollarized.
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There's a 180
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about countries. There's a 130 floating currencies.
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All of them are weaker than the dollar.
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The US dollar is the world's reserve currency. The US dollar is expanding. It was expanding 10% a year for a decade, now expanding at 14% a year. It expanded 34%
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over the past 12 months.
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The dollar is weakening.
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Okay? It's like the auction is getting sucked out of the room. So, Tucker, if I told you the auction is getting sucked out of the room and there's an oxygen mask
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drops out of the ceiling over there, what would you do? Run for it. Yeah. Put the oxygen mask on.
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Bitcoin is the oxygen mask.
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So you're saying just to make sure that everyone's faultless.
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The whole point of Bitcoin
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is to escape
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the inflation vortex that has consumed all these previous empires.
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And money is energy and energy is life. And if I keep sucking the energy out of the economy,
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I'm sucking the oxygen out of your system.
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Either under the best case, you perform poorly. Under the worst case, I suffocate you to death or freeze you to death.
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That's the problem.
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That's why that's why empires collapse.
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That's why economies collapse.
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expensive?
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You need to watch that. It's over an hour long. Michael Saylor
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is his name. An amazing person. That's on Tucker Carlson today at foxnation.com.
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It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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That clip you just heard was MicroStrategy
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CEO and founder,
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Michael Saylor, on Tucker Carlson's,
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Fox News Show,
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explaining Bitcoin to him.
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Take it as you will.
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Huge shout out to the Rider Dies who continue to support this show. You guys
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keep this show ad free, sponsor free, and focus purely on actionable Bitcoin discussion. I cannot thank you enough.
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The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites are Fountain Podcasts
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and Breeze.
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That's Breeze,
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b r e e z.
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You can search it in your favorite app store.
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All you have to do is
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search it'll dispatch,
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press that subscribe button, load it up with stats, and you can stream stats directly to my lightning node to support the show. You can also support the show at sidodispatch.com
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through lightning or through my pay nymph, my samurai pay nymph,
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which is Odell.
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Very easy to remember.
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So thank you all for supporting the show. Another huge shout out to the ride or die freaks who join us every week,
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in the live chat, which is accessible
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via Twitch, Twitter,
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or YouTube.
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You guys make this show special and unique. The questions you bring, the comments you bring,
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make these conversations
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more comprehensive than they would be otherwise, and I really do appreciate you. Thank you so much.
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Also,
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sale dispatch hats are back on sale. Richardson hats were out of stock
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globally, and now they're back in stock.
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Shipping worldwide
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should be able to get to you by Christmas.
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So if you're interested, go to seal dispatch.com/stack,
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to get a hat.
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Also, huge shout outs to BTC Pins and CryptoCloaks,
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for making awesome Bitcoin merch.
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Not sponsors, but, I like to shout out my favorite influencers,
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when I get the opportunity to.
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So with all that said,
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this will be our 3rd
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our 4th
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Bitcoin mining focused dispatch.
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The first one was Citadel dispatch 5, where we briefly touched on mining, not not very strongly.
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Then cildispatch
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31 was like the getting started, so if if you haven't listened to that, consider going and listening to that after this show. That's citildispatch.com/cd31.
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And then we had citildispatch
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38,
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where we went more in-depth on mining. And today, we will be also,
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going further
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into
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mining, and so I'm very excited about it. We have 2 return guests. I will start with them. We have,
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Ronan Miner. Ronan, how's it going?
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And we have Big Kahuna. Big Kahuna, how's it going?
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dedication. I met Big Kahuna in Austin,
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a couple weeks ago. So I think this is our first show doing it since,
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we met in person, so that's exciting.
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head of research and content
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at Slush.
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How's it going, Daniel?
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who is not here right now, but will hopefully join us,
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further along into the conversation.
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So with all those introductions said,
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where do you guys wanna start? I know the focus here to start off or the focus here is gonna be on securing the cheapest power possible When you're talking about mining,
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you have two main costs.
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You have the actual hardware cost of the ASIC miners,
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and then you have the electric cost that you pay to run them.
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In the past, we have discussed
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securing miners and obtaining miners and
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trying to get the best price for them.
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And
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on this episode, we're gonna this conversation, we're gonna try and
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start with a focus on obtaining the cheapest power. So where do you guys wanna start on that?
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to go through that thread that he did. I think that was the catalyst for this whole thing.
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you know, start from the
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the top of the globe, bird's eye view, how you can get the cheapest power and just, like, very slowly work down to a more granule level until we get to
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the residential,
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which is where I wrote that,
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purchase power agreement thread,
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which kinda had some tips and tricks in there to
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kinda guide people on how to negotiate power with their their
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energy service providers.
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So, like, I was really hoping that, BTC Boulder was gonna be on because he's a he's an actual lineman electrician. He works with, like, big, big, big, big power and would probably have a lot of insights as we as we work our way down through this.
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But I guess, like, to start off, like,
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obviously, the the best way to get cheap power is to position yourself near
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hydropower or geothermal or nuclear or something that that is the cheapest.
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And I don't know. I guess,
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Daniel, as you've been
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kind of exploring the world, I guess, do you have a list or an order of what what powers are,
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generally cheaper than others?
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because as a home miner, you're you're buying power from a utility company most likely or almost definitely.
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So even if their energy source
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is like, regardless of whatever their energy source is,
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that that's not necessarily going to dictate what your end price is as a consumer.
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Whereas at the industrial level, if they're working directly with the power company, then,
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the hierarchy is is more based on the cost of energy for whatever energy source.
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Interestingly, you mentioned geothermal, and I was just in El Salvador for the conferences there and talking to some people. And it sounded to me like the geothermal energy is actually not all that cheap, like maybe
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7 to 8¢ per kilowatt hour,
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which could be profitable for a very long time,
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with all the current conditions that we have. But,
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I think
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ordinarily, I would be recommending to people at least mining at scale to look for something like 6¢ per kilowatt hour as a
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good barrier for or good threshold for being competitive long term.
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I think probably for all at home miners,
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that should be considerably higher than 6¢ per kilowatt hour because it's just not realistic in most places.
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And you're you're probably mining for reasons besides just the mining profitability on its own.
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But that said, I would probably rank them
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as, like, actually maybe solar as the number 1,
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which
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is very low on my list for industrial scale mining and very high on the list for at home mining,
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because there's so many incentives that,
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different companies or the government provides for doing solar panels on your roof at your home,
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that
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it typically makes sense to do solar panels if you're in a solar dense area like the Southwest or
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or Florida or anywhere in the South really,
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then you can
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you would be sending power back to the grid ordinarily with that kind of deal.
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Any excess that you produce, you would sell to the grid and you wouldn't get a necessarily great price for it. So mining Bitcoin with the excess on your at home solar can actually make a lot of sense.
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Other than that, it's it's hard to say.
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So
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you work for Slush.
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You have this this dashboard, insights.brains.com.
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And in classic Bitcoin fashion, that's brains with 2 i's.
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Because no one in this space can name things in an easy way for someone on a podcast to talk about them.
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This this website is is extremely,
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detailed,
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And you have all these different
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stats on it.
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I got I I pulled it up on if you're watching the video stream, you can see it. I I have it in the screen share.
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And you have the breakeven
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electricity price of all the different top
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miners.
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So I'm seeing
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I'm seeing the s 9.
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When you when you list the s 9 here, is it running brains custom firmware?
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So the the brains OS plus column there is with an overclocking profile, which which is actually
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not that much more efficient than the stock firmware because you're consuming so much more power.
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So the breakeven electricity price is about the same or even potentially lower. But if you were to run the s nine at, for example,
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800 or 900 watts instead of what we have there, which I think is 1400,
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then your breakeven electricity price would be probably 2 or 3¢ higher.
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So
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so a lot of people
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so so when we're talking about, like, at scale, like, try and target a 6¢ kilowatt hour or 7¢ kilowatt hour,
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it's it's it's about maximizing
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profit. Right? But you can especially if you're a home miner, you can get away with significantly higher electricity rates.
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And if you value no KYC
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when it comes to stacking,
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I would say, like, you could even push it maybe even a little bit further past breakeven if you if if that's something you value.
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and
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and just ask them what type of
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programs they have, and then you tell them what you have they'll they'll say, what do you fit into this type of category or that or that type of category?
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You can negotiate down for winter rates
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and and different
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even so just yesterday, a guy was explaining to me the rates that he's offered at his
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at his location, and he's just regular residential.
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He could get 5¢ a kilowatt hour for 21 hours a day
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during weekdays, but the other 3 hours a day during weekdays, he has pay 36¢ a kilowatt hour.
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So then you have to kinda do your Oh, shit.
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Yeah. And then on the weekends, he gets 5¢ a kilowatt hour,
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24 hours a day.
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So you kinda have to do your That's a bigger difference than I'd expect.
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Yeah. And then but then you gotta you gotta,
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I don't know, then you guys suppose you'd have to take into account, like, alright. So you're gonna shut your all your machines off for 3 hours a day? What kind of wear and tear does that do on your machines if you're
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powering them off and on every day?
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some, but, like, nobody's willing to really share lifespan.
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Like, the the main people that we would get that information from are the ones doing the load balancing, like demand response stuff in ERCOT system in Texas and,
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similar system in Illinois.
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But Illinois. But there's,
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like, it's not necessarily a good idea for any minors to share
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that data because if they're participating in those programs
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and they share that data,
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then it would directly results in their hardware resale value going down.
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Because
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then there would be, like, some sort of,
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clause on any any hardware sale where, like, this hardware was used in a demand response or
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just frequently powered on and off application.
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So its lifespan is probably going to be shorter and the value will be lower, and then they're not gonna be able to resell it for as high of a price. So, it's hard to get that information. But,
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generally speaking,
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it's it's definitely not good.
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That's all we can say.
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a lot of people don't take the resale value,
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into equation in the in the opposite direction in terms of
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when you're talking about profitability. I mean, you combine these things you combine with these things for a couple years and then resell them. What is that value at that
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point? It's a little bit harder to to know that, obviously, but it's still gonna have some value if you wanna resell them.
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everyone goes with the ROI metric, whereas
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just because it's gonna take you 10 months or 18 months or whatever
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however you've figured out your
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quote ROI,
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you're not sitting on 0 afterwards. Like, you still have like, even if you've gotten your return on investment, you still have a machine that's gonna be worth a lot to someone,
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presumably.
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a 100%. So, Daniel,
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I have
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I saw a question on Twitter,
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the other day, which is a question that I actually get a lot, from freaks who reach out.
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You wanna go into explaining
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why it's cheaper to buy 6 s nines
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versus,
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an s 19 even though the tower hashes are the same?
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It's basically a a matter of a difference in
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efficiency.
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So for you to produce a 100 terahash with s nines, you have to consume,
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with, like, roughly 7,000 watts, maybe 8,000,
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depending on the quality of the s nines. Whereas to produce that same terahash with a s 19 only requires about 3,003,300
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watts.
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So,
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it's like max you you get more BTC per watt of power that you're consuming.
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And that that also means that the lifespan of your ASIC in terms of not in terms of operating lifespan, but just like the profitable lifespan where you can run it at a certain
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electricity price will be longer
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the more efficient it is.
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So the s nineteens are significantly more expensive because they they're expected to remain profitable for much longer and because they're going to help you stack much more BTC per watt of energy that you're consuming
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it's more worth it to get the new gen miners
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if your electric cost is higher,
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and
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it's better to get
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the
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old gen miner, something like an s a bunch of s nines if you have free power or as close to free as possible.
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295
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under, like, 3¢ per kilowatt hour, then you should almost definitely be going with something like an s line or a,
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m twenty s from what's minor.
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Yeah. Once once you get above that, it becomes a lot more tricky because
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the,
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like, breakeven electricity price is only telling you day to day profitability. Like, can I can I make a profit by running this machine
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for the next 24 hours? But what it doesn't tell you is, will I actually make enough money to act to pay off this the CapEx that I spent to get this machine in the 1st place.
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302
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303
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if you scroll up to the very top of this page, we have a profitability calculator.
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And we call it a profitability calculator just because that's what people are used to, but it what it really is is like a Bitcoin mining cash flow calculator.
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So in the advanced options on the the inputs sidebar,
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if you open up advanced options down there,
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there's CapEx,
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hardware starting hardware value, hardware
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appreciation or depreciation,
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infrastructure appreciation or depreciation.
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And then,
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Huddl ratio is for, like, if you wanna
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keep a certain portion of your profits in BTC instead of selling into,
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Fiat. So yeah. Exactly.
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So if you if you have a non zero non zero price
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increments on in the basic options for BTC price, and then you have a HODL ratio, then you see the impact of, like, holding versus not holding.
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But for for hardware value,
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that's part of the cash flow line. So once you input CapEx and hardware value,
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then the cash flow separates
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from the net profit loss. And,
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and then, like, your resale value of the hardware is factored to the cash flow. So as hardware
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depreciates,
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even though
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it maybe it loses half of its value in the in a year if it's an old gen machine, I don't think that, like, personally,
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I'm I think that price growth will outpace difficulty growth in the near term and and hardware will actually get more expensive.
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So I think there's an interesting play of trying to trade the hardware
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where you you mine with it at home for a year, and then you try to sell high on it.
328
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But anyway, yeah,
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it's hard to to actually see the inputs. Let me go full screen.
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331
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332
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I think, actually, the
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it's but, yeah, it's because, the hash rate and consumption are way too high. So it's, like, change the hash rate to
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a 100 terahash and consumption to 3,000 watts, and then everything will be more proportional and and we'll be able to see stuff better. It'll It'll reload better.
335
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I'm trying to get rid of the little yeah. There we go.
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Okay. So now you can see hardware value, the yellow line
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where it's losing about 50% of its value in that 12 months.
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The cash flow is the pink line that's increasing
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less rapidly
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than
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the net profit loss. And the reason for that is because while you're making that profit, the hardware is depreciating.
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So your cash flow, which includes the value of your assets,
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is not increasing as quickly as the amount of money that you're just making
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in general.
345
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346
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This is a pretty in-depth little calculator you guys got here.
347
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348
00:25:06.274 --> 00:25:07.815
I I had a ton of spreadsheets,
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and I was trying to explain them to people who were, like, just getting into mining, just going through, like, cell by cell on Excel spreadsheets. Like, if I change this, then this is what happens and and so on and so on. And like, nobody was understanding it. It was really difficult. And then,
350
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at the same time that I was like,
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had so many tabs open trying to keep track of stuff, I was just kinda like, this would be really useful for content if I could have visualizations
352
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for all of these,
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like, Excel spreadsheets that I can't even make charts for in Excel
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because none of them make sense.
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So, yeah, it's it's, I think, the most advanced calculator
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out there on the market by far.
357
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358
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So what's your favorite what's your favorite part of this site?
359
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What's your favorite metric on this site?
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361
00:26:18.525 --> 00:26:30.769
So the defaults we have in there is 2.5 megawatts, but if you change it to, like, a 100 megawatts, then you'd see, like, here's what the numbers that a large miner is working with when you get into the exahashes.
362
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363
00:26:32.955 --> 00:26:34.095
what's minors here?
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365
00:26:35.835 --> 00:26:43.180
we have it filtered so that it's not super long, but at the top right next to the power capacity input, you can change the hardware manufacturer.
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367
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368
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369
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In their server. Actually,
370
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371
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I don't think anybody's using Ebang or InyoSilicon
372
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at any kind of scale anymore,
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But for sure, Kanan has at least, like,
374
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I I would say, a 100,000
375
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of their new gen machines out there, something like that. And
376
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377
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.500
Before we move on from this website,
378
00:27:25.045 --> 00:27:32.665
you wanna explain what the hell is in this chart, the hash value versus hash and hash price? Like, I still don't get it. Like, there was a back and forth on Twitter.
379
00:27:33.429 --> 00:27:34.169
380
00:27:34.870 --> 00:27:43.975
I I didn't even understand what people were confused about at first because I've been, like, in in my little bubble of knowing what hash price is for a long time.
381
00:27:44.595 --> 00:27:47.815
People are confusing hash price with dollars per terahash
382
00:27:48.434 --> 00:27:49.735
capex for hardware.
383
00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:58.660
So because I think it's because of the the name price and shout out to to Ethan from Hash Rate Index. I'm pretty sure he's the one that,
384
00:27:59.280 --> 00:28:02.875
came up with with doing hash price as the
385
00:28:03.495 --> 00:28:05.115
the the name for this metric,
386
00:28:05.735 --> 00:28:12.340
and it just stuck. And now that's what we're using as well. But this is actually referring to the revenue generated per day
387
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:13.140
by,
388
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by 1 terahash of Hash rate. So it has nothing to do with the the price
389
00:28:18.015 --> 00:28:18.515
of
390
00:28:18.975 --> 00:28:24.675
procuring that Hash rate, of procuring an ASIC. It is just, like, the USD value per day,
391
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of the the revenue that you generate
392
00:28:28.560 --> 00:28:29.620
with 1 TeraHash.
393
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.154
And then the hash value is the BTC value per day. So what you can see on this chart is that,
394
00:28:36.534 --> 00:28:42.315
in July, when the China mining ban happened, hash value soared because difficulty went down.
395
00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:45.080
So when difficulty decreases, the amount of
396
00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:48.840
BTC that you generate per terra hash goes up.
397
00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:52.645
But price was also going down at that same time. So the hash
398
00:28:53.125 --> 00:28:54.665
price was not going up
399
00:28:55.045 --> 00:28:57.065
at the same rate as the hash value.
400
00:28:57.525 --> 00:29:01.385
And then now we're going back to they're converging now and probably
401
00:29:01.860 --> 00:29:05.960
I would expect that hash value will will overtake hash price. And eventually,
402
00:29:06.820 --> 00:29:10.360
they'll be far separated with hash price being,
403
00:29:11.635 --> 00:29:15.895
sorry. I I think I mixed those up. Hash price will overtake hash value.
404
00:29:16.995 --> 00:29:18.775
405
00:29:20.600 --> 00:29:22.920
406
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:25.980
I was reading it wrong this whole time.
407
00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:27.420
His his
408
00:29:28.355 --> 00:29:34.950
his initial explanation of what people think it is is what I thought it was. I didn't know it was the difference between, like,
409
00:29:35.350 --> 00:29:37.289
okay. You're mining this much BTC
410
00:29:37.669 --> 00:29:40.730
compared to you're mining this much fiat. And
411
00:29:41.269 --> 00:29:42.809
what I thought it was was
412
00:29:43.975 --> 00:29:48.635
for how much dollars per terahash you're buying a machine compared to
413
00:29:48.935 --> 00:29:49.995
how many dollars
414
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.059
you're making per terahash.
415
00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:58.020
So I was I was wrong about it. The the problem with that is that now, I think.
416
00:29:58.414 --> 00:30:02.355
417
00:30:02.735 --> 00:30:05.875
So I I wanna come up with a a better name for
418
00:30:06.255 --> 00:30:08.980
the CapEx version of it. But the,
419
00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:14.899
like, dollars per terahash to procure an ASIC is different for every single machine because,
420
00:30:16.115 --> 00:30:28.000
like, it depends also on the efficiency. It's not just a raw hash rate amount. So the dollars per terahash for an s 19 will be significantly higher than the dollars per terahash for an s 9
421
00:30:28.300 --> 00:30:33.005
because the s 19 is more efficient. So you're you're able to keep more of the BTC
422
00:30:33.705 --> 00:30:35.565
that you mine with each of those terahashes,
423
00:30:36.585 --> 00:30:40.365
because you're consuming less energy in order to produce that BTC,
424
00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:44.910
and therefore, you have to sell less of it to pay your power bills. Which goes right back to
425
00:30:46.270 --> 00:30:50.684
426
00:30:51.304 --> 00:30:52.605
why a single
427
00:30:53.304 --> 00:30:54.205
s 19
428
00:30:54.664 --> 00:30:57.004
j or whatever is better
429
00:30:57.304 --> 00:30:58.524
than 6
430
00:30:58.840 --> 00:30:59.580
s nines
431
00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:12.115
Right. For that exact reason. Because dollar per terahash is totally different. You get the same amount of terahash, but you're paying different dollar amounts for it, and that does not equal what you're going to end up with.
432
00:31:12.654 --> 00:31:13.475
433
00:31:16.450 --> 00:31:17.190
434
00:31:18.210 --> 00:31:20.870
435
00:31:21.409 --> 00:31:23.750
the impact of increasing difficulty
436
00:31:24.505 --> 00:31:25.005
and
437
00:31:25.465 --> 00:31:28.445
volatility in Bitcoin price on mining revenue.
438
00:31:35.250 --> 00:31:37.910
439
00:31:39.330 --> 00:31:43.875
440
00:31:45.955 --> 00:31:47.335
hash value goes down,
441
00:31:47.635 --> 00:31:52.535
and then volatility in Bitcoin price, which is why there's volatility in the hash price,
442
00:31:53.409 --> 00:31:57.669
over time. So increasing difficulty means decreasing hash value.
443
00:31:58.049 --> 00:31:59.990
And then if Bitcoin price increases
444
00:32:00.684 --> 00:32:02.545
faster proportional to difficulty,
445
00:32:03.085 --> 00:32:04.625
then hash price will go up.
446
00:32:04.925 --> 00:32:07.985
And if BTC price goes down or
447
00:32:08.470 --> 00:32:10.649
decrease or increases slower than difficulty,
448
00:32:11.110 --> 00:32:14.169
then hash price will go down. Right. So So then
449
00:32:15.429 --> 00:32:15.929
450
00:32:16.565 --> 00:32:18.825
sorry, Ronan. Hit us, Ronan. Alright.
451
00:32:19.525 --> 00:32:22.745
452
00:32:24.409 --> 00:32:32.750
is a purchaser of your Hash rate. You're selling your Hash rate to that pool, and they're mining with it, and then they're giving you
453
00:32:33.385 --> 00:32:33.885
your
454
00:32:34.505 --> 00:32:40.045
what you're what you're owed for that amount of hash rate. And as network hash rate goes up, if your
455
00:32:40.919 --> 00:32:43.580
hash rate that you are selling to them stays stable,
456
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:44.380
then
457
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:46.860
then your
458
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:51.015
value of the hash rate that you're contributing goes down in value.
459
00:32:51.554 --> 00:32:58.534
But if the price of Bitcoin goes up, it starts to chase that back because you're being rewarded more for
460
00:32:59.050 --> 00:33:01.710
the hash rate even if your hash rate stays stable?
461
00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:13.685
462
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:18.700
So just if if you if you have a steady one terahash,
463
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.179
then as difficulty goes up, your rewards from the pool will keep going down.
464
00:33:23.995 --> 00:33:26.174
But, yeah, if Bitcoin price goes up enough,
465
00:33:26.715 --> 00:33:27.215
then
466
00:33:27.674 --> 00:33:33.054
your rewards and Fiat terms can still keep going up even as they're going down in BTC terms,
467
00:33:33.470 --> 00:33:35.170
which is where, like, in calculations
468
00:33:36.270 --> 00:33:39.410
with mining profitability and, like, should I mine or not?
469
00:33:40.804 --> 00:33:48.585
There's 2 CapEx break even points. 1 is the CapEx break even in USD or whatever Fiat terms, and the other one is in BTC terms.
470
00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:57.070
And I wanna make a version of the calculator that's like a BTC maxi version where we do the CapEx breakeven of, like, if I spent this $12,000
471
00:33:57.765 --> 00:34:00.105
just buying Bitcoin instead of mining,
472
00:34:01.045 --> 00:34:04.585
when, like, when would I make more Bitcoin
473
00:34:04.970 --> 00:34:07.870
from mining than I could have bought with that $12,000
474
00:34:08.330 --> 00:34:09.070
in the beginning.
475
00:34:10.650 --> 00:34:13.630
476
00:34:16.155 --> 00:34:16.655
it's
477
00:34:17.435 --> 00:34:22.175
kind of the same end result as what me and Ronan thought the chart showed to begin with. Yes.
478
00:34:22.680 --> 00:34:26.540
479
00:34:27.080 --> 00:34:30.140
thinking of the other dollars for TeraHash because it does
480
00:34:30.585 --> 00:34:35.005
481
00:34:35.545 --> 00:34:40.160
you should be trying to buy miners when the blue line is lower than the orange line, the yellow
482
00:34:40.540 --> 00:34:41.040
483
00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:48.160
484
00:34:49.655 --> 00:34:50.155
So,
485
00:34:50.934 --> 00:34:51.434
basically,
486
00:34:52.214 --> 00:34:54.635
if hash price is going up, then that means
487
00:34:55.095 --> 00:35:02.560
the the value of the the price that you have to pay for the machines will probably be going up as well. But if you already have them,
488
00:35:03.020 --> 00:35:06.400
then that means that the resale value is also going up.
489
00:35:06.945 --> 00:35:11.205
So, like, that's where I was saying before, if you you can actually kind of
490
00:35:12.225 --> 00:35:15.045
imagine people starting to trade hardware on
491
00:35:15.609 --> 00:35:20.750
6 6 months to 18 month time frames where, like, I could buy a machine
492
00:35:21.289 --> 00:35:27.845
expecting that in this next, let's say, 18 months, Bitcoin price is going to increase faster than difficulty.
493
00:35:28.465 --> 00:35:33.125
If that happens, basically, Hash price will go up from where it is right now.
494
00:35:33.570 --> 00:35:39.270
And if hash price is up from where it is right now, then the machine value will be up from where it is right now.
495
00:35:40.050 --> 00:35:47.015
And I'll be able to resell it for more than I paid for it, and I'll keep all of the all of the BTC that I mined in the process.
496
00:35:47.555 --> 00:35:51.255
So that's where it does show the exact same thing as what you were saying because,
497
00:35:52.030 --> 00:35:53.250
as hash price goes
498
00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:57.650
up, then the amount that you have to pay for hardware is gonna go up to.
499
00:35:58.430 --> 00:36:01.275
500
00:36:03.035 --> 00:36:06.895
I've been very excited to talk to you about it on air since my confusion.
501
00:36:07.994 --> 00:36:10.815
We have BTC Boulder has joined us.
502
00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:13.349
How's it going, BTC Boulder?
503
00:36:15.010 --> 00:36:16.150
Welcome to the show.
504
00:36:18.050 --> 00:36:23.005
505
00:36:23.625 --> 00:36:26.045
506
00:36:29.799 --> 00:36:34.380
I I don't know if we mentioned that it was EST, but if we didn't, that's on us.
507
00:36:36.839 --> 00:36:37.740
508
00:36:39.045 --> 00:36:41.065
509
00:36:43.605 --> 00:36:44.484
510
00:36:45.140 --> 00:36:47.799
Daniel's first name, based out of your Boulder.
511
00:36:49.700 --> 00:36:53.960
Long electrician now. The union work utility power, high voltage,
512
00:36:55.455 --> 00:36:56.675
medium voltage or
513
00:36:57.135 --> 00:36:58.595
controls, fiber optic.
514
00:36:59.295 --> 00:37:04.589
Not too familiar with, like, the pricing structure on the I know you guys are talking to the kilowatt hour,
515
00:37:05.130 --> 00:37:06.270
comparing them versus
516
00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:16.775
states and when you when you buy it, time of the the week. Not too familiar with that aspect of it, but as far as the electrical install side, very familiar with it.
517
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.720
518
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:24.960
I mean,
519
00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:28.165
I I know that, like The voltages they're running at
520
00:37:28.565 --> 00:37:31.865
521
00:37:32.325 --> 00:37:38.680
522
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:45.675
What I wanna get into. I I guess, Matt, are you okay with me just kinda going off on this,
523
00:37:46.315 --> 00:37:52.255
Yeah. 100%, dude. Go for it. Okay. Alright. I don't know if you had an agenda you were thinking or or whatnot.
524
00:37:53.530 --> 00:37:59.070
One thing that I found out that was pretty interesting, when you're when you're, like, kinda building up a mining operation,
525
00:37:59.585 --> 00:38:04.965
if you're in the middle of butt fuck nowhere in the middle of the woods, like, you that grid is
526
00:38:05.425 --> 00:38:07.525
powered differently than living in a city,
527
00:38:08.180 --> 00:38:10.200
or living in, like, a in a business,
528
00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:16.600
area. So if I wanted to if I lived out in the woods and wanted to run an operation with 10 s nineteens,
529
00:38:17.855 --> 00:38:24.115
the the power provider might not even be able to give that to me because that would put too much strain on
530
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:28.559
all my neighbors because there's not enough voltage running through those power lines.
531
00:38:29.259 --> 00:38:34.585
But if you live in near a city or, like, during or in an industrial area,
532
00:38:34.964 --> 00:38:37.464
then that grid by default is more
533
00:38:37.845 --> 00:38:40.025
wired with higher voltage to
534
00:38:40.325 --> 00:38:41.224
actually support
535
00:38:42.369 --> 00:38:43.750
larger power draws.
536
00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:46.470
That's a correct assumption. Right?
537
00:38:47.890 --> 00:38:54.045
538
00:38:54.425 --> 00:38:56.365
be affected by running some minors.
539
00:38:57.305 --> 00:38:59.724
540
00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:04.370
And I I get really confused when it comes to, like, your grid voltages.
541
00:39:06.670 --> 00:39:08.545
542
00:39:09.165 --> 00:39:10.865
And sometimes in the in the neighborhoods,
543
00:39:11.245 --> 00:39:12.065
I mean, that'll
544
00:39:12.365 --> 00:39:14.145
they'll break it down into just
545
00:39:15.230 --> 00:39:19.010
whatever transformers are set up on there, but it's, yeah, 13,000
546
00:39:19.710 --> 00:39:21.330
utility for the most part.
547
00:39:21.790 --> 00:39:27.465
That's for If it's, like, city to city city to city, it's getting, like, in the the 24,000
548
00:39:27.845 --> 00:39:29.125
or higher range or
549
00:39:29.765 --> 00:39:32.585
but, like, I think what you're talking about, it could be up in the
550
00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:45.605
the couple thousand range. A good way to look at it is the the pole that's feeding it and the style of, like, insulator and the size of the pole could is a is a good way to determine potentially what it's feeding at her. For the utility company, I'll tell you what that area is getting fed with.
551
00:39:46.385 --> 00:39:52.405
552
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:55.579
553
00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:57.099
do a transformer
554
00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:58.940
depending on the
555
00:39:59.615 --> 00:40:11.220
the demand of it and what you're doing. Sometimes they'll they'll upgrade their stuff, but, I mean, it's really case by case on on your area and what you're thinking your demand is. But they'll definitely inform you on everything of what's being fed and voltages.
556
00:40:11.839 --> 00:40:13.460
557
00:40:13.839 --> 00:40:14.339
upgrade,
558
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.215
not to your well, okay. They can upgrade your pole if there's enough power on the power lines,
559
00:40:20.915 --> 00:40:25.895
to get you more voltage to your house. But if they were to upgrade that whole power line,
560
00:40:26.740 --> 00:40:28.440
that might that'll likely require,
561
00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:30.520
thicker gauge cables.
562
00:40:31.540 --> 00:40:39.145
And if if you're the one driving that change, then they might ask you to cover that for the, you know, the whole circuit.
563
00:40:41.285 --> 00:40:44.130
564
00:40:44.430 --> 00:40:48.530
to really answer that the best because it's I've I've kinda seen it just all
565
00:40:48.990 --> 00:40:51.175
all different ways when it comes to the
566
00:40:51.575 --> 00:40:54.235
responsibility of the utility out or the
567
00:40:55.175 --> 00:40:56.155
the property owner
568
00:40:56.695 --> 00:40:57.195
or
569
00:40:57.575 --> 00:41:01.750
however they wanna have the utilities fed in. Sometimes, who's gonna pay for it?
570
00:41:02.130 --> 00:41:05.430
571
00:41:06.684 --> 00:41:09.105
When we first started, we were saying that, like,
572
00:41:09.484 --> 00:41:13.265
the best way to get the cheapest power is to position yourself near,
573
00:41:14.160 --> 00:41:20.420
the cheapest energy. And, obviously, a lot of people aren't gonna be uprooting their house to move out to the middle of nowhere near a waterfall.
574
00:41:21.695 --> 00:41:24.035
And when you get when you zoom in a little bit closer,
575
00:41:25.375 --> 00:41:28.115
the the next step is to position yourself near
576
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:32.079
power facilities or, like, cities, essentially. Because
577
00:41:32.539 --> 00:41:36.240
because if you're closer to the power facility, that's a cheaper,
578
00:41:37.474 --> 00:41:43.815
delivery cost. Like, these these power providers actually charge you a fee to deliver electricity to your house.
579
00:41:44.160 --> 00:41:46.820
And my understanding is that that delivery fee
580
00:41:47.200 --> 00:41:50.820
is directly partial to the distance you are to the
581
00:41:51.375 --> 00:41:52.975
the power generation site.
582
00:41:53.375 --> 00:41:58.835
And, generally, if you're in the city, you're much closer, but if you're out in the woods, then you might have a higher,
583
00:41:59.295 --> 00:42:00.355
delivery fee.
584
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:05.260
And then taking that a step further, you might have a a weaker,
585
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.140
like, a lower gauge power line setup,
586
00:42:08.520 --> 00:42:10.060
meaning that you you can't
587
00:42:11.255 --> 00:42:13.915
scale up a huge operation in your pole barn because,
588
00:42:15.015 --> 00:42:18.635
the grid in the woods is not good enough to do so.
589
00:42:19.010 --> 00:42:24.230
Is that is that all pretty correct to say that, like, your distance is directly proportional to that distribution
590
00:42:24.530 --> 00:42:26.150
fee that they're gonna charge you?
591
00:42:27.675 --> 00:42:31.055
592
00:42:31.675 --> 00:42:38.940
I have I have some friends in the in the utilities, in the metering that I could confirm that, but I was almost under the assumption that, like, if you're in,
593
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:43.455
like, Excel Power or somewhere in Colorado, it's not like
594
00:42:44.735 --> 00:42:52.675
you're getting that much of a difference between how far over the powerhouse is in in your in your house, like, out in the middle of nowhere versus someone in the city that's near the powerhouse
595
00:42:53.020 --> 00:42:54.320
versus the kilowatt hour
596
00:42:54.620 --> 00:42:57.680
of the going rate of what they're of what they're showing in advertising.
597
00:42:58.140 --> 00:43:01.520
598
00:43:02.395 --> 00:43:11.214
they do tack on so you have a a base kilowatt hour for your capacity use, but then you have they tack on a, like, a deliver a distribution kilowatt hour.
599
00:43:11.710 --> 00:43:13.010
I'm gonna share something.
600
00:43:13.870 --> 00:43:18.130
If I just post this in the hologram, can you share it, or can I pull it up?
601
00:43:18.885 --> 00:43:20.665
602
00:43:21.045 --> 00:43:21.545
603
00:43:23.925 --> 00:43:33.330
It it it's been interesting. What what kinda led this idea was I made this big thread on, on power purchase agreements. And I don't know if you guys looked through it, but
604
00:43:33.630 --> 00:43:34.130
the
605
00:43:34.455 --> 00:43:36.555
the idea was that I I started looking
606
00:43:37.095 --> 00:43:38.635
at my my residential,
607
00:43:39.335 --> 00:43:40.155
power provider
608
00:43:40.615 --> 00:43:41.275
and just
609
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.380
seeing what they offered. And I found out that,
610
00:43:45.160 --> 00:43:53.155
it was all public all public information online. I could literally point to the the power purchase agreement I wanted and say, yo,
611
00:43:53.695 --> 00:43:54.835
sign me up for this,
612
00:43:55.615 --> 00:43:59.910
and then they would charge me according to that. And And this was really interesting to me because,
613
00:44:01.010 --> 00:44:03.590
when when I thought about this beforehand, I thought that
614
00:44:03.970 --> 00:44:05.430
if you're a massive
615
00:44:06.195 --> 00:44:07.815
operation, say, Riot Blockchain,
616
00:44:08.515 --> 00:44:12.535
like, you can call them up and negotiate a power agreement. But
617
00:44:12.970 --> 00:44:18.670
what I found is that for my company, it was all out there in the open. They had it all structured. You could pick what you wanted.
618
00:44:20.585 --> 00:44:22.684
And, like, this is where you get into,
619
00:44:23.865 --> 00:44:28.845
like like, I think Ronan, he conned them into letting them say that he's heating his house with,
620
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:32.760
electric heaters, and that gave him a cheap rate.
621
00:44:33.700 --> 00:44:36.440
You, like, peak off peak power to get different rates.
622
00:44:38.335 --> 00:44:38.835
And
623
00:44:39.775 --> 00:44:42.994
624
00:44:43.295 --> 00:44:51.340
625
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.500
unless I pick a different plan.
626
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:58.845
And this is kinda hard to read. I I feel like they almost do it on purpose.
627
00:44:59.945 --> 00:45:00.905
But if you
628
00:45:02.640 --> 00:45:05.300
I'm also checking mark this up. If you just
629
00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:14.925
630
00:45:15.945 --> 00:45:19.005
631
00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:19.980
additional
632
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:22.619
and non capacity energy under additional.
633
00:45:23.080 --> 00:45:24.220
And then that distribution,
634
00:45:26.040 --> 00:45:26.540
number,
635
00:45:27.295 --> 00:45:36.515
that's that that's gonna be your kilowatt hour charge, and then they just tack on that service charge and whatever credit on top of it. What does capacity and non capacity mean?
636
00:45:37.859 --> 00:45:38.680
637
00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:41.160
638
00:45:43.059 --> 00:45:57.119
639
00:46:01.585 --> 00:46:03.205
640
00:46:04.225 --> 00:46:06.645
641
00:46:07.185 --> 00:46:10.950
642
00:46:11.890 --> 00:46:15.510
And I I didn't I didn't really understand the capacity versus non capacity.
643
00:46:16.770 --> 00:46:20.205
644
00:46:21.225 --> 00:46:22.845
the sum of those two numbers?
645
00:46:23.225 --> 00:46:24.285
646
00:46:25.145 --> 00:46:25.645
Okay.
647
00:46:26.105 --> 00:46:31.340
648
00:46:32.120 --> 00:46:35.820
649
00:46:36.305 --> 00:46:38.325
650
00:46:38.625 --> 00:46:39.125
nice?
651
00:46:39.825 --> 00:46:41.125
652
00:46:42.625 --> 00:46:49.070
653
00:46:49.850 --> 00:46:51.470
than what I've come to expect.
654
00:46:52.305 --> 00:46:55.845
655
00:46:57.905 --> 00:46:59.265
656
00:46:59.984 --> 00:47:00.645
657
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:15.095
658
00:47:15.795 --> 00:47:17.255
And then after that,
659
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.660
it's almost like you pay a certain dollar
660
00:47:21.200 --> 00:47:21.700
amount
661
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:23.060
per kilowatt.
662
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:26.340
And then after that, you pay
663
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:34.655
this amount per kilowatt hour at some really lowered rate. And I've never been able to understand what the difference is between kilowatt hour and kilowatts
664
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:41.100
665
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:43.180
plan that,
666
00:47:43.905 --> 00:47:44.885
I guess I discovered.
667
00:47:45.425 --> 00:47:45.905
So
668
00:47:46.385 --> 00:47:49.205
okay. To to to kinda take this further,
669
00:47:50.225 --> 00:47:51.845
that's my standard
670
00:47:52.385 --> 00:47:52.885
bill.
671
00:47:54.800 --> 00:48:00.485
And what I found out is that you can negotiate or you can sign up for the peak power agreement.
672
00:48:00.965 --> 00:48:01.465
And,
673
00:48:02.485 --> 00:48:05.625
how that works is you're essentially billed for
674
00:48:06.565 --> 00:48:08.265
you're essentially billed for
675
00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:12.440
the maximum amount of power that you use.
676
00:48:13.220 --> 00:48:15.160
So if if you're running a welder
677
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:18.360
and you turn it on for 10 minutes
678
00:48:19.015 --> 00:48:19.515
versus
679
00:48:20.535 --> 00:48:22.234
so so in a standard bill,
680
00:48:23.015 --> 00:48:27.194
if you turn your welder on for 10 minutes, you're only charged for the 10 minutes that you're running that welder.
681
00:48:27.690 --> 00:48:29.230
If you go to a peak power agreement
682
00:48:29.690 --> 00:48:33.950
and you turn that welder on for 10 minutes, your charge is if that welder was running 247
683
00:48:34.650 --> 00:48:35.150
for,
684
00:48:36.875 --> 00:48:39.295
you know, for the entire month. And so
685
00:48:39.835 --> 00:48:42.734
that that's what that kilowatt charge is
686
00:48:43.194 --> 00:48:43.674
that,
687
00:48:44.370 --> 00:48:49.030
you're seeing, Neil. You're being charged as if you're running your max power amount
688
00:48:49.890 --> 00:48:50.390
247.
689
00:48:51.385 --> 00:48:57.005
And you can kinda see how this would be really good for mining. Right? Because if you're mining and you're getting charged,
690
00:48:57.625 --> 00:49:00.765
18¢ like the the bill we just showed up on the screen,
691
00:49:01.140 --> 00:49:03.319
That sucks. Like, you're being charged 247.18¢
692
00:49:04.180 --> 00:49:08.039
per kilowatt hour. But if you go into a a peak power agreement,
693
00:49:09.815 --> 00:49:12.795
they're gonna bill you for your peak load for that month.
694
00:49:13.655 --> 00:49:18.670
So, again, if you turn on your 10 s nineteens for 10 minutes, you'll be charged as if it's running 247.
695
00:49:19.609 --> 00:49:26.255
But you know you're gonna be running that 247, and that allows that allows me to get down to a I think it was 8¢.
696
00:49:28.714 --> 00:49:30.635
And then I'm not actually running this, but,
697
00:49:31.194 --> 00:49:32.174
I did the math,
698
00:49:32.954 --> 00:49:36.030
and I can actually share that if you wanna pull it
699
00:49:36.330 --> 00:49:42.750
700
00:49:43.275 --> 00:49:43.855
to run
701
00:49:44.715 --> 00:49:46.175
exactly how many you're running.
702
00:49:48.075 --> 00:49:57.130
And if you go over that, then you get then you basically have to end up paying more because you went over the contract that you had with them. Is that what is that what I'm understanding?
703
00:50:00.070 --> 00:50:00.570
704
00:50:05.505 --> 00:50:10.645
did did did my explanation make sense to most people? It sounds like I I kinda got chopped up a little.
705
00:50:13.300 --> 00:50:14.340
706
00:50:14.740 --> 00:50:16.680
I could try to summarize as, like,
707
00:50:17.060 --> 00:50:20.600
basically, there's 2 really important figures. 1 is,
708
00:50:21.220 --> 00:50:23.445
like, kind of the base rate that you pay,
709
00:50:24.305 --> 00:50:29.205
regardless. And then the other one is what is the maximum amount of energy that you consume
710
00:50:29.910 --> 00:50:34.650
at any point in time during that entire month or whatever the billing period is,
711
00:50:35.190 --> 00:50:46.135
because that will determine an amount that's added on to your base rate for the entire duration of the month. So if you were to just have a random blip where you consume an extra, like,
712
00:50:46.490 --> 00:50:54.430
let's say 3 kilowatts or something that would actually significantly impact your bill even if you're only consuming that extra amount for a few minutes
713
00:50:54.865 --> 00:50:58.245
because of the way that they structured the u x ricity pricing.
714
00:50:59.185 --> 00:51:01.525
715
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:13.484
716
00:51:13.945 --> 00:51:16.205
like, people started hitting me up in DMs and,
717
00:51:17.305 --> 00:51:20.125
you know, Telegram, whatever, blah blah blah, and, like,
718
00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:21.450
just kinda
719
00:51:22.230 --> 00:51:25.190
zooming out and starting to look at this at different states. Like, I
720
00:51:25.910 --> 00:51:27.130
it seems like in Michigan,
721
00:51:27.590 --> 00:51:28.810
which is where I'm at,
722
00:51:29.695 --> 00:51:32.515
a lot of this information was all public. You could just Google,
723
00:51:34.175 --> 00:51:38.355
your energy provider rates and find all this information out there.
724
00:51:39.060 --> 00:51:40.520
But then you look into Ohio.
725
00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:49.005
I think Colorado, a lot of it was available, but, like, Ohio, they they pretty much made you call them up to to see what they could offer you.
726
00:51:50.825 --> 00:51:53.964
So it's kinda like a state by state energy provider by provider.
727
00:51:55.720 --> 00:52:02.220
And and I don't know if that means that these plans are already set up and you just need to call and ask for it. They're trying to hide it from you probably,
728
00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:04.940
or if that means that it is
729
00:52:14.470 --> 00:52:21.130
730
00:52:22.244 --> 00:52:22.744
but,
731
00:52:23.445 --> 00:52:29.045
like, who would've who would've guess that they'd offer you 5¢ a kilowatt hour, 21 days
732
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:35.819
or 21 hours a day on weekdays, but then they charge you 36¢ a kilowatt hour
733
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:43.285
for the other 3 hours a day. Like, that's just such an absurd plan, but that's that's offered to residential in that area.
734
00:52:43.744 --> 00:52:51.039
735
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:59.065
736
00:52:59.845 --> 00:53:03.305
that miners are using at large scales, like 100 of megawatts.
737
00:53:04.110 --> 00:53:12.995
But instead they're like building it in so that you're incentivized to shut off when they need the power for other people and you're incentivized to consume when they have excess
738
00:53:13.715 --> 00:53:18.695
supply. So they're just, like, incentivizing you to be a just demand response resource for them.
739
00:53:19.075 --> 00:53:22.695
It it like, it's actually kinda smart. I didn't know that that was a thing.
740
00:53:23.310 --> 00:53:25.090
741
00:53:25.470 --> 00:53:38.905
When I've been talking to a lot of people about this, like, just kinda thinking this through, you know, let's say you get home and it's time to cook dinner or something, and you go and you turn on your electric oven. Like, you would almost want to turn off a minor to offset
742
00:53:39.205 --> 00:53:39.705
that,
743
00:53:40.680 --> 00:53:43.020
added electricity cost when you turn on the oven,
744
00:53:43.720 --> 00:53:49.805
so that you're not you're not running that oven for 10 minutes and then getting charged as if that was running 247.
745
00:53:52.105 --> 00:53:56.660
And then, yeah, that that's, like, the demand response that you're talking about. And then just because,
746
00:53:57.220 --> 00:54:05.435
CryptoClocks is in the chat, I keep hounding him, telling him that him that he needs to take his mining and printing operation and find a peak power setup because,
747
00:54:05.895 --> 00:54:07.835
like, if his miners are running 247,
748
00:54:08.535 --> 00:54:10.715
like, that's a lot of power that adds up.
749
00:54:11.220 --> 00:54:11.880
And then
750
00:54:12.260 --> 00:54:17.640
his miners and his printers are running 247. Like, that's kind of a match made in heaven where
751
00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:20.440
the peak power is perfect for something like that.
752
00:54:21.375 --> 00:54:23.234
753
00:54:23.615 --> 00:54:24.435
our drop.
754
00:54:25.135 --> 00:54:30.435
Like, the the amount of power that they're willing to drop to us, they were they did it for free
755
00:54:30.869 --> 00:54:36.250
because they want they want people they put in the whole new service and everything for us
756
00:54:36.710 --> 00:54:37.210
because
757
00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:39.530
you're a customer.
758
00:54:40.115 --> 00:54:45.974
You're a customer, and they know that they can sell you electric, and you just tell them what you're doing,
759
00:54:46.515 --> 00:54:53.780
and you level with them. And they're gonna actually protect you then after that too because now you're a customer that's buying their electric from them,
760
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:55.535
and they're not
761
00:54:56.895 --> 00:54:58.015
they don't have any
762
00:54:58.815 --> 00:54:59.635
there's no
763
00:55:00.015 --> 00:55:04.434
incentive for them to, like, go and be like, oh, yeah. These guys are doing this,
764
00:55:04.770 --> 00:55:05.270
and
765
00:55:05.730 --> 00:55:09.110
I don't know if they're paying their taxes or not or whatever, which we are.
766
00:55:10.530 --> 00:55:15.985
But, like, you're kinda they they'll protect you because they want your money. They're just like any other business.
767
00:55:18.205 --> 00:55:22.385
768
00:55:23.680 --> 00:55:26.740
When when I was looking at my bill, there's there's parts in there that,
769
00:55:29.520 --> 00:55:34.635
there's there's incentives or discounts where if you are heating your house with an electric heater
770
00:55:35.495 --> 00:55:40.619
or if you are heating like, doing an electric water heater, you can get discount from that.
771
00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:48.619
And I think I heard that you somehow negotiated with them that you are heating your house with electric heater,
772
00:55:49.335 --> 00:55:53.195
which we all know you're just trying to set your house on fire with minors in the basement.
773
00:55:53.975 --> 00:55:58.609
774
00:55:59.230 --> 00:56:01.010
I called the local power utility.
775
00:56:01.710 --> 00:56:02.690
I got a condo,
776
00:56:02.990 --> 00:56:06.425
doesn't take much to heat, threw a couple s nines in there,
777
00:56:06.805 --> 00:56:08.405
called them and I said, hey. I'm gonna be,
778
00:56:08.965 --> 00:56:12.825
using electric space heaters all the way along. And they're like, well,
779
00:56:13.510 --> 00:56:21.690
how much natural gas are you gonna be using? I was rehabbing the place at the time, so I said 0. And they're like, oh, we're all yeah. That's totally fine.
780
00:56:21.995 --> 00:56:22.655
But then,
781
00:56:25.035 --> 00:56:27.935
I asked them and I go, well, what? Because I have a gas stove,
782
00:56:28.555 --> 00:56:29.295
the gas
783
00:56:29.839 --> 00:56:30.579
water heater,
784
00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:37.780
and I said, well, it gets really cold in Minnesota, so what happens if my furnace has to kick on? And they go, we'll see that.
785
00:56:38.174 --> 00:56:45.954
We'll see that, and we'll we can match that with what the temperature was out that day. We'll know what you're using gas on and the quantity of gas you're using.
786
00:56:47.049 --> 00:56:50.270
And from what we can tell is your electric use is stable
787
00:56:50.730 --> 00:56:51.470
and regular,
788
00:56:52.089 --> 00:56:55.995
so we'll drop your electric rate down to 6¢ a kilowatt
789
00:56:56.695 --> 00:56:57.435
hour between
790
00:56:57.895 --> 00:56:58.395
October
791
00:56:59.735 --> 00:57:00.235
May.
792
00:57:01.095 --> 00:57:04.875
So there you go. You got half the year, more than half the year,
793
00:57:05.710 --> 00:57:15.515
that you get 6¢ a kilowatt hour. And that that includes everything. Your television running, your fans, everything that you have going on in your house, all the electric you use also gets dropped too, but
794
00:57:16.775 --> 00:57:20.714
795
00:57:21.174 --> 00:57:25.260
the same residential bill, but then they they have their their rates for space heating.
796
00:57:26.120 --> 00:57:31.180
797
00:57:32.555 --> 00:57:34.575
798
00:57:35.035 --> 00:57:40.095
like, November through May, it looks like a lot of it drops. And Oh, it drops significantly.
799
00:57:40.875 --> 00:57:41.375
Yeah.
800
00:57:41.994 --> 00:57:44.480
801
00:57:44.780 --> 00:57:48.800
802
00:57:49.315 --> 00:57:58.279
So you're also eliminating that because you're not running your natural gas furnace. So that's a whole other expense that you no longer have. So, I mean, you're saving on 2
803
00:57:58.660 --> 00:57:59.480
different fronts.
804
00:58:07.005 --> 00:58:07.405
805
00:58:08.684 --> 00:58:20.470
Boulder, in your experience, I mean, is it is it, like, just a general rule of thumb? Like, the the electricity provider just wants you to use energy. Like, all these incentives are saying, don't use gas, use our electricity.
806
00:58:23.135 --> 00:58:25.395
I mean, it's in their best interest. It's
807
00:58:25.695 --> 00:58:28.035
you're incentivized to just, like, burn through
808
00:58:28.495 --> 00:58:32.420
their electricity that they're providing you. I don't know if there's any, like, anomalies to
809
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:37.220
810
00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:40.740
definitely talk to somebody I know who works for the utility company
811
00:58:41.055 --> 00:58:46.675
now that I know some more of the specifics of the questions you guys are looking into. But I definitely know some people who work
812
00:58:46.975 --> 00:58:49.955
for the local power companies in this area and work with metering
813
00:58:51.059 --> 00:58:52.839
and familiar with that. So I'll definitely
814
00:58:53.380 --> 00:58:57.240
maybe they if you guys have another one of these, I could bring them on, but we'll see.
815
00:58:58.075 --> 00:59:00.095
816
00:59:01.035 --> 00:59:12.849
if, like, if there is a room for negotiation in any of these because I I I just kinda think that these companies have a, you know, have a file on their desktop that they open up and say, well, yeah, we can give you this, this, this, and this.
817
00:59:13.869 --> 00:59:22.275
818
00:59:24.500 --> 00:59:27.799
819
00:59:28.099 --> 00:59:29.640
whether it be to get a new
820
00:59:30.260 --> 00:59:31.915
a new service drop that's
821
00:59:32.395 --> 00:59:34.815
twice or three times the size of what we have
822
00:59:35.355 --> 00:59:35.855
or
823
00:59:36.395 --> 00:59:41.295
just try to see if they have any residential deals that they're willing to offer. Like,
824
00:59:41.810 --> 00:59:45.030
they'll just pull it up and look at it and help you out. They don't
825
00:59:45.810 --> 00:59:54.695
they don't care. They like talking about this type of stuff, so it's it's easy. Even if you don't know, even if you haven't done the research online yourself to figure out what you're asking for,
826
00:59:55.075 --> 00:59:55.575
they'll
827
00:59:55.955 --> 00:59:57.335
they'll tell you what's available.
828
00:59:59.590 --> 01:00:05.770
829
01:00:09.415 --> 01:00:15.435
Some BTC pins actually sent me a link that shows the diff the difference between capacity and non capacity.
830
01:00:17.470 --> 01:00:20.210
I can share it, but I'll read it off real quick.
831
01:00:23.070 --> 01:00:23.570
Forward.
832
01:00:26.035 --> 01:00:28.055
Where we at? Okay. So it says,
833
01:00:29.555 --> 01:00:32.695
power supply charge. A portion of the cost of generating
834
01:00:33.075 --> 01:00:37.820
the energy that you used to power all the lights and appliances in your home.
835
01:00:38.520 --> 01:00:43.980
Your power supply charge was previously presented as one line item beginning in May 2018.
836
01:00:44.585 --> 01:00:45.325
Your power
837
01:00:45.785 --> 01:00:46.184
supply,
838
01:00:46.585 --> 01:00:51.244
charge was split into 2 line items labeled as capacity and non capacity charges on the bill.
839
01:00:52.240 --> 01:00:57.700
This follows Michigan's new energy policy and will allow DTE to charge elect Electric Choice customers
840
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:05.075
for their portion of capacity costs without impacting the customers. So it seems like it's just a way to split it for their own,
841
01:01:05.714 --> 01:01:06.214
accounting.
842
01:01:08.610 --> 01:01:12.630
843
01:01:13.410 --> 01:01:14.630
844
01:01:16.895 --> 01:01:20.595
845
01:01:24.070 --> 01:01:27.210
I think they try and make these bills as complicated as possible.
846
01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:36.085
847
01:01:37.185 --> 01:01:41.369
mess around. They'll tell you what you can get. You move up to commercial.
848
01:01:41.670 --> 01:01:45.770
Okay. If you're using a little more than typical commercial or you're using it
849
01:01:46.470 --> 01:01:47.609
on a more regular
850
01:01:48.674 --> 01:01:52.295
regular time frame. Like, you can actually tell them, I'm gonna use this much
851
01:01:52.595 --> 01:01:58.040
over this period of time, then they'll do something for you. And then you move up to industrial,
852
01:01:58.900 --> 01:01:59.640
it's like,
853
01:02:01.220 --> 01:02:05.115
the sky's the limit. They don't even care. They're like, alright. Give me $20,000
854
01:02:05.655 --> 01:02:07.675
a month, and we don't care what you use.
855
01:02:08.535 --> 01:02:11.355
856
01:02:11.700 --> 01:02:27.015
you are running 2 meters at your house as I understand, and you just have, like, a separate area with a separate meter. And so when you called them up, they just installed a separate business meter for you? No. No. No. It went it actually, it went a weird way.
857
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:32.100
858
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:33.700
which had its own meter,
859
01:02:34.080 --> 01:02:34.820
and then
860
01:02:35.865 --> 01:02:37.805
a house was built on it afterwards.
861
01:02:38.185 --> 01:02:40.205
And they're required by law
862
01:02:40.585 --> 01:02:42.925
to run a meter to the house
863
01:02:43.590 --> 01:02:46.330
or run a service to the house and put in its new meter.
864
01:02:47.110 --> 01:02:51.850
But it was only because it went in that order where we allowed 2
865
01:02:52.954 --> 01:02:54.734
meters on the same property.
866
01:02:55.355 --> 01:03:00.974
Because, otherwise, it has to be a dual residence. Like, the only way you could get other otherwise, like, only, like, a duplex
867
01:03:01.780 --> 01:03:02.920
could get 2 drops.
868
01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:09.080
Like, they won't run a separate meter out to your pole barn if your pole barn was built after your house.
869
01:03:10.155 --> 01:03:11.135
Does that make sense?
870
01:03:12.235 --> 01:03:19.720
871
01:03:20.339 --> 01:03:21.480
872
01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:27.984
are running a business off of your property as well, then you can get it. But just as a straight residential,
873
01:03:28.285 --> 01:03:29.105
you can't.
874
01:03:30.045 --> 01:03:33.105
And so the only thing we did was we took the existing
875
01:03:33.484 --> 01:03:34.464
I think it was
876
01:03:35.160 --> 01:03:41.819
100 amp or something like that that was going to the pole barn, and we just boosted it as high as they would let us go.
877
01:03:42.200 --> 01:03:44.299
And then since it's all run underground,
878
01:03:44.925 --> 01:03:50.224
all the white like, we did it it's called a drop, but it's not a drop because it was all run underground.
879
01:03:51.325 --> 01:03:55.099
And they were like, yeah. We're not replacing the wires. It's too expensive.
880
01:03:56.280 --> 01:04:00.060
We'll do it for free, but we're not play replacing the underground wires.
881
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:01.339
But we will
882
01:04:01.960 --> 01:04:03.820
come out if it burns up
883
01:04:04.715 --> 01:04:08.735
and replace it for free. Otherwise, you can otherwise, you can up
884
01:04:09.435 --> 01:04:10.895
up the service now,
885
01:04:11.640 --> 01:04:14.860
and you have to pay for it. And we're just like, yeah.
886
01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:17.500
Fuck it. We'll burn it up.
887
01:04:19.685 --> 01:04:20.585
888
01:04:21.845 --> 01:04:25.945
at least from my understanding, it's pretty easy to get, like, a business
889
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:32.980
meter installed. Like, if you're trying to do something in your garage, you can have them come out and install a
890
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:34.819
a 200 amp service.
891
01:04:35.965 --> 01:04:44.225
But I don't know what the requirements are for that business. Like, you just need to have an LLC or, like, whatever whole structure. Has to be a detached building.
892
01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:46.340
893
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:51.840
894
01:04:52.885 --> 01:04:53.625
I've been
895
01:04:54.485 --> 01:04:55.445
wondering about.
896
01:04:55.925 --> 01:05:01.465
I don't know how that works because, a lot of these these good deals, these peak power deals that I'm talking about,
897
01:05:02.190 --> 01:05:05.089
the best ones are in their their business rates.
898
01:05:06.269 --> 01:05:11.410
And so you'd have to have your own meter or, like, convince them that you are a business of some sort.
899
01:05:12.155 --> 01:05:16.095
900
01:05:16.875 --> 01:05:22.470
a detached building. Like, if you had a detached garage or something like that, you could do it like that.
901
01:05:23.250 --> 01:05:26.070
But it has to both be physically detached
902
01:05:26.370 --> 01:05:31.075
and also be on a totally different like, under an LLC of some sort or something
903
01:05:33.075 --> 01:05:35.175
904
01:05:36.435 --> 01:05:38.935
It probably is. I I'm not sure,
905
01:05:39.290 --> 01:05:40.590
I guess, I'm not sure
906
01:05:40.890 --> 01:05:46.650
if there's any more questions or comments on the PPA, but I I guess I have something that we could dive into that I think,
907
01:05:47.615 --> 01:05:49.875
Daniel might have some good comments on.
908
01:05:50.414 --> 01:05:51.155
909
01:05:51.615 --> 01:05:54.755
910
01:05:56.319 --> 01:05:58.500
show up on my energy plan,
911
01:05:58.960 --> 01:06:03.619
one of them is, like, your your peak off peak power. And what this means is that,
912
01:06:04.484 --> 01:06:05.625
you know, if you're running
913
01:06:06.565 --> 01:06:08.825
if you're running a miner at night,
914
01:06:09.845 --> 01:06:14.860
it's gonna be a cheaper energy rate than if you run it during the day. And that's that's,
915
01:06:15.180 --> 01:06:16.240
to pretty much incentivize
916
01:06:17.180 --> 01:06:19.600
grid balancing, like we were just talking about,
917
01:06:20.285 --> 01:06:22.225
because they know that everyone's gonna be
918
01:06:22.685 --> 01:06:24.385
at home on the weekends or
919
01:06:24.765 --> 01:06:32.420
whatever during the day, running showers, whatever, getting ready for work. But at night, when everyone's sleeping, all the lights are off, everything off is not a lot of power demand.
920
01:06:34.650 --> 01:06:35.145
And
921
01:06:35.705 --> 01:06:46.650
I guess when people see this, like, a lot of the times, they're like, well, I'll just run my my miner at night, and I'll turn it off during the day, and I'll max I'll just maximize the cheapest power that I can get
922
01:06:47.190 --> 01:06:48.490
and go from there.
923
01:06:49.270 --> 01:06:55.244
I think Dan knows where I'm going with us, but he wrote, he wrote an article on this that I think would be interesting to to talk through.
924
01:06:57.305 --> 01:07:00.810
925
01:07:02.810 --> 01:07:03.310
So,
926
01:07:04.330 --> 01:07:04.830
basically,
927
01:07:05.130 --> 01:07:07.230
in in that scenario that you were describing,
928
01:07:07.984 --> 01:07:11.204
I don't think in most cases that it would make sense
929
01:07:11.585 --> 01:07:15.445
for you to actually shut off the miners during the more expensive time periods.
930
01:07:15.984 --> 01:07:16.645
I think,
931
01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:19.740
using a firmware like BrainsOS Plus
932
01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:21.180
more strategically
933
01:07:22.120 --> 01:07:28.465
is a really good way to become competitive with the larger scale miners even when you you don't have,
934
01:07:29.325 --> 01:07:33.700
the benefit of cheaper electricity like they do. And what I
935
01:07:34.579 --> 01:07:37.000
basically the the idea would be
936
01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:41.000
you play the efficiency game when your electricity is more expensive
937
01:07:41.425 --> 01:07:44.484
and you just maximize your hash rate when it's less expensive.
938
01:07:45.025 --> 01:07:48.325
So during those those nighttime hours, you would overclock
939
01:07:49.070 --> 01:07:53.170
with brains OS plus. Like, for example, with an s nine, you do it,
940
01:07:53.630 --> 01:07:54.770
maybe 1400
941
01:07:55.070 --> 01:07:57.250
watts. You might get 17 terahash
942
01:07:58.005 --> 01:07:59.145
per s 9.
943
01:07:59.845 --> 01:08:04.105
And then during the daytime hours when your electricity is more expensive,
944
01:08:04.405 --> 01:08:06.980
you would do the opposite. You would undervolt it
945
01:08:07.540 --> 01:08:08.359
down to
946
01:08:08.980 --> 01:08:09.880
maybe about
947
01:08:10.180 --> 01:08:11.800
800 or 900 watts,
948
01:08:12.740 --> 01:08:13.800
and you would determine
949
01:08:14.475 --> 01:08:19.135
the the right power setting. You just experiment with some different settings with every machine,
950
01:08:19.595 --> 01:08:24.920
and the auto tuning process would kinda find what's optimal. So maybe some s nines, you would have,
951
01:08:25.320 --> 01:08:29.660
800 watts would be perfect, whereas other ones, 900 watts would be perfect.
952
01:08:30.515 --> 01:08:35.735
That's just gonna vary from machine to machine. But at the end of the day, what you would do is just,
953
01:08:36.195 --> 01:08:37.335
you would go for
954
01:08:38.270 --> 01:08:47.864
trying to get down to, like, 75 watts per tera hash with the kind of maximum efficiency that you can get from an s nine when your electricity is more expensive.
955
01:08:48.324 --> 01:08:49.145
And that way,
956
01:08:49.764 --> 01:08:57.570
you're consuming less electricity overall, so your total cost is lower. And then you're also running out of more efficient power setting.
957
01:08:57.949 --> 01:08:59.489
So then your amount of
958
01:08:59.790 --> 01:09:03.330
your your profit margin basically during that time is better.
959
01:09:03.715 --> 01:09:12.535
And then when you have that cheap off peak power, you just wanna maximize the amount of BTC that you mine, and you don't care as much about how much power you're consuming
960
01:09:13.030 --> 01:09:17.530
because it's not gonna cost you as much. So then you change your power settings to
961
01:09:18.070 --> 01:09:18.570
overclocking,
962
01:09:18.950 --> 01:09:22.175
and you could just have a couple of Python scripts that automatically do
963
01:09:22.475 --> 01:09:23.215
this, like,
964
01:09:23.995 --> 01:09:28.094
at 8 PM, increase power input to 1400 watts.
965
01:09:28.530 --> 01:09:37.030
At 6 AM or whatever it is, decrease power input to 800 watts, and you could automate the whole thing so that you play the peak off peak,
966
01:09:37.725 --> 01:09:38.225
power,
967
01:09:39.565 --> 01:09:40.705
pricing differently,
968
01:09:41.245 --> 01:09:44.685
and you maximize for efficiency when when you need the,
969
01:09:45.860 --> 01:09:52.280
the lower to lower your electricity bills and you mash maximize for hash rate when you wanna mine more BTC on cheaper power.
970
01:09:53.355 --> 01:09:57.855
971
01:09:59.195 --> 01:10:01.410
the Swipe span. Yeah. Exactly.
972
01:10:01.790 --> 01:10:04.610
973
01:10:05.070 --> 01:10:06.690
I think, the demand response
974
01:10:06.990 --> 01:10:13.395
resource, the miners that are doing this at larger scales, like in the the dozens of megawatts or even the 100 of megawatts.
975
01:10:14.495 --> 01:10:15.155
If they're
976
01:10:15.650 --> 01:10:19.830
participating in demand response programs where they're shutting off every single day,
977
01:10:21.170 --> 01:10:24.230
they'd probably make a lot of money to shut off.
978
01:10:24.685 --> 01:10:27.905
So most of the time, they're going to be incentivized to just completely
979
01:10:28.284 --> 01:10:31.185
stop consuming power for whatever amount of time that that,
980
01:10:31.645 --> 01:10:34.710
that that they can get paid so much by the utility,
981
01:10:35.570 --> 01:10:36.710
for not consuming.
982
01:10:37.410 --> 01:10:46.905
But when you factor in lifespan, which we don't know exactly what the impact of cons consistently shutting on and off does, but,
983
01:10:48.660 --> 01:10:57.640
it could be rather significant. And in that case, then it might make more sense to just decrease the power input per machine as low as it can possibly be,
984
01:10:58.014 --> 01:11:00.355
but keeps them running so that you don't actually
985
01:11:00.735 --> 01:11:09.880
you don't deal with the thermal cycling where the machine shuts off completely and then it cools off and then it turns on and heats back up and the and the silicone gets,
986
01:11:10.420 --> 01:11:15.145
expanded and retracted and expanded and retracted and eventually that wears on it.
987
01:11:17.065 --> 01:11:21.325
So, yeah, it's I think, like, every single operation is gonna have different
988
01:11:21.945 --> 01:11:32.595
requirements for that, but but there's so much room for optimization in terms of how you consume energy at at different times of the day depending on the amount of energy you have available and the price.
989
01:11:33.875 --> 01:11:37.895
990
01:11:38.435 --> 01:11:45.620
had issues is because, you know, they'd turn off and that that excess heat sitting there would just not get dissipated and it would,
991
01:11:46.420 --> 01:11:48.120
eat through a lot of the thermal paste,
992
01:11:49.305 --> 01:12:05.310
993
01:12:05.690 --> 01:12:07.630
994
01:12:08.765 --> 01:12:16.545
can't remember if it was, like, thermal glue to thermal paste or what, but they they basically used a much cheaper material to attach the heat sinks to the hash boards.
995
01:12:17.300 --> 01:12:21.320
And then heat sinks kept falling off or they just weren't as thermally conductive.
996
01:12:21.940 --> 01:12:29.995
And so, like, it was anticipating, and then the machines overheat and that Yeah. So kinds of problems. They're a piece of shit. So, Daniel,
997
01:12:30.935 --> 01:12:32.955
998
01:12:34.619 --> 01:12:37.520
we had Yan on. We talked at length about Brains,
999
01:12:37.900 --> 01:12:40.080
this custom firmware you guys ship,
1000
01:12:41.745 --> 01:12:43.364
that makes your Bitmain miners,
1001
01:12:44.065 --> 01:12:45.285
significantly better.
1002
01:12:49.745 --> 01:12:50.245
But
1003
01:12:50.700 --> 01:12:52.400
I come from the perspective
1004
01:12:52.940 --> 01:12:53.840
that microbt,
1005
01:12:54.300 --> 01:12:54.800
WhatsMiners
1006
01:12:55.260 --> 01:12:55.760
are
1007
01:12:56.460 --> 01:12:57.600
just better hardware.
1008
01:13:00.185 --> 01:13:01.085
Where do you stand
1009
01:13:01.784 --> 01:13:02.925
in terms of,
1010
01:13:03.225 --> 01:13:05.565
like, evaluating the equation between
1011
01:13:06.905 --> 01:13:10.929
buying Bitmain hardware specifically so you can run brains on it
1012
01:13:11.389 --> 01:13:11.889
versus
1013
01:13:13.309 --> 01:13:14.530
investing in microbt,
1014
01:13:14.909 --> 01:13:18.364
what's miners, and just hoping that you guys ship brains eventually.
1015
01:13:20.344 --> 01:13:23.324
1016
01:13:23.784 --> 01:13:25.965
somewhat painful meme at this point.
1017
01:13:26.900 --> 01:13:27.460
Like, we
1018
01:13:28.660 --> 01:13:36.040
we're so close, but we've I've I've thought that for a long time, so I don't wanna say anything. It's still it's just Soon TM.
1019
01:13:36.955 --> 01:13:40.015
1020
01:13:40.955 --> 01:13:41.775
1021
01:13:42.315 --> 01:13:45.375
at least on the on the m 21 and the m 20,
1022
01:13:45.740 --> 01:13:47.120
which is the mid generation,
1023
01:13:47.660 --> 01:13:49.360
I think that we will have those
1024
01:13:50.140 --> 01:13:50.800
soon, TM.
1025
01:13:51.900 --> 01:13:56.465
We I as far as I know, we already have it hashing. The firmware is hashing on
1026
01:13:56.765 --> 01:13:59.985
m 30 and m 31, m 30 plus s plus
1027
01:14:00.765 --> 01:14:03.585
as well. But I I would imagine that it's
1028
01:14:04.240 --> 01:14:10.420
like, once we get the m 20 and m 21 out, it will probably still be a few months before we get
1029
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:15.215
the new generation stuff out. So if you're buying the new gen stuff, then
1030
01:14:15.915 --> 01:14:17.135
I, like, optimistically
1031
01:14:18.395 --> 01:14:22.335
end of q one. But I shouldn't even say anything like that. Like, just,
1032
01:14:23.440 --> 01:14:26.980
it'll it'll be a few months. Yeah. Yeah. 2 weeks. Exactly.
1033
01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:29.620
I saw the
1034
01:14:30.315 --> 01:14:30.815
CryptoCloaks
1035
01:14:31.195 --> 01:14:33.454
asked about s 19 j, and
1036
01:14:34.315 --> 01:14:36.335
I don't know if we have the j
1037
01:14:36.770 --> 01:14:40.870
as part of this, but I do know that we're very close on the s 19 j Pro,
1038
01:14:41.570 --> 01:14:42.630
which I think
1039
01:14:43.090 --> 01:14:47.735
when we in our next firmware build that we release, I think we will have
1040
01:14:48.195 --> 01:14:52.695
a more stable build for s 19, t 19, and s 19 pro,
1041
01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:55.600
which are already in public beta right now.
1042
01:14:56.060 --> 01:15:00.239
But we'll also include, I think, a beta for the
1043
01:15:00.780 --> 01:15:02.320
s 19 j pro.
1044
01:15:02.805 --> 01:15:04.745
Hopefully, that also includes s 19j.
1045
01:15:05.205 --> 01:15:09.625
1046
01:15:10.005 --> 01:15:10.505
1047
01:15:11.219 --> 01:15:13.320
I wish that they would also just stop
1048
01:15:13.780 --> 01:15:19.239
producing so many random variants and just have, like, 1 or 2 things That drives me nuts.
1049
01:15:19.735 --> 01:15:23.355
1050
01:15:24.454 --> 01:15:51.989
1051
01:15:52.290 --> 01:16:03.594
Do you have the 96 Tera Hash version or the or the 100 terahash version? Or is it the 102 terahash version? Or do you actually have, like, the j and you just told us it was the base model, but but that's because you were,
1052
01:16:04.370 --> 01:16:21.155
you didn't realize how how much complication that there is involved with, like, each individual subvariant has slightly different architecture that we have to account for. And, yeah, it's it's it's such a mess. What's minor, I think, is a little bit better than Bitmain because Bitmain,
1053
01:16:21.775 --> 01:16:22.275
like,
1054
01:16:23.330 --> 01:16:24.310
there's at least,
1055
01:16:25.330 --> 01:16:25.990
I think,
1056
01:16:26.610 --> 01:16:29.750
9 or 10 different subvariants of the s 19 already,
1057
01:16:30.370 --> 01:16:34.284
if not more. And there was just, like, a random s 19 a.
1058
01:16:34.585 --> 01:16:39.485
1059
01:16:40.199 --> 01:16:46.840
Nope. It see it seems to be the same terra hash as something else. But then even with Bitmain, like, the m thirties have
1060
01:16:47.935 --> 01:16:52.995
1061
01:16:53.615 --> 01:16:58.230
1062
01:16:58.930 --> 01:17:01.750
1063
01:17:02.290 --> 01:17:05.110
The model number's higher, but the terra hash is less.
1064
01:17:05.585 --> 01:17:09.845
1065
01:17:10.385 --> 01:17:13.365
It It's like the I use the leftover chips.
1066
01:17:13.770 --> 01:17:15.309
I think that's what I have. 46
1067
01:17:16.409 --> 01:17:17.789
1068
01:17:18.170 --> 01:17:22.110
Everyone I've had has failed. It's the only WhatsMyers I've ever had that failed.
1069
01:17:22.795 --> 01:17:24.094
1070
01:17:24.555 --> 01:17:26.815
1071
01:17:27.435 --> 01:17:29.775
1072
01:17:30.240 --> 01:17:31.380
1073
01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:35.940
actually kind of belongs in the M 20 generation. From, like, what I've
1074
01:17:36.240 --> 01:17:48.270
read about it, it sounded like the M30 generation is really like M30, M30 s or M30 s, M30 s plus, M30 s plus plus, m 31 and m 31 s plus.
1075
01:17:48.650 --> 01:17:55.455
But the m 32 is made with the same chips. I might be wrong about this, but I think it's made with the same chips as the m 20
1076
01:17:56.235 --> 01:17:56.735
generation.
1077
01:17:57.595 --> 01:17:59.775
But for some reason, it's named m 32.
1078
01:18:00.075 --> 01:18:06.670
1079
01:18:07.449 --> 01:18:08.750
1080
01:18:09.210 --> 01:18:19.885
1081
01:18:20.240 --> 01:18:34.764
decide which chips go on which boards, and then they're like, okay, these ones are closest to 46 terahash, so let's make a machine that's that. These ones are closer to 62 terahash, so let's make a machine that's like that. Because it if you've noticed, like,
1082
01:18:35.465 --> 01:18:39.110
plugging in some of these machines, like, some of them are just animals,
1083
01:18:39.650 --> 01:18:54.135
and I can't figure out why. Like, you plug in a 68 terahash m 32, the thing can sit it runs at 60 or runs at 80 terahash its entire life, and it's just fine. Like, I have no idea why this happened. They just, like, fucked it up.
1084
01:18:56.250 --> 01:18:59.550
Oh, it's because there's no there's no quality control.
1085
01:19:00.330 --> 01:19:11.135
1086
01:19:11.570 --> 01:19:16.150
2 different m 30 twos, and one of them is a workhorse and the other one is a piece of shit.
1087
01:19:16.530 --> 01:19:39.630
And, like, the firmware that that that comes on them is just gonna treat them the same. Whereas maybe you run brains on those, like, we don't have it for the m thirty two s yet, but, like, maybe for you get an an old beat up s nine that's on its last leg and you get another s 9 that's like still got 5 years left in it and brains will figure out, okay, we can give way more,
1088
01:19:40.925 --> 01:19:55.810
higher frequencies and voltages to this kind of newer s nine, and we'll give much lower to the this older s nine. And, yeah, we're not going to get as much hash rate from this older s nine, but at least we're not gonna break it, and it's it's gonna run as efficiently as it can.
1089
01:19:56.350 --> 01:19:59.695
And, like, the the firmware that comes on them is just
1090
01:20:00.494 --> 01:20:03.635
it's like treating individual little snowflakes as
1091
01:20:04.014 --> 01:20:04.994
all the same.
1092
01:20:06.255 --> 01:20:10.400
That said, from what I know, the Whatsminer firmware is actually
1093
01:20:10.860 --> 01:20:11.600
more sophisticated
1094
01:20:11.980 --> 01:20:13.200
than the Bitmain firmware.
1095
01:20:13.580 --> 01:20:16.080
But I don't know if they have, like, the
1096
01:20:16.705 --> 01:20:20.645
sophistication of figuring out optimal frequencies and voltages,
1097
01:20:20.945 --> 01:20:26.490
but there's something to do with the what's minor chips. They They only really hash effectively in certain temperature ranges.
1098
01:20:26.950 --> 01:20:28.810
So you kind of have to do some,
1099
01:20:29.190 --> 01:20:33.130
some sort of tuning process just to get them hashing in the first place
1100
01:20:33.485 --> 01:20:33.985
that
1101
01:20:34.365 --> 01:20:39.745
isn't involved with bit main. Like bit main, as long as it's above a certain temperature where,
1102
01:20:41.060 --> 01:20:45.320
where it's, like, safe to run and below a certain temperature where it becomes dangerous,
1103
01:20:45.780 --> 01:20:51.865
then they'll hash. Whereas that that effective temperature range for What's Miners is apparently a lot smaller.
1104
01:20:52.325 --> 01:21:00.239
So they have some something going on in their firmware that's that's already doing some sort of tuning. I've also seen if it it it depends on
1105
01:21:02.059 --> 01:21:05.199
1106
01:21:05.695 --> 01:21:08.675
The WestMiner doesn't seem to be such a big deal, but, like,
1107
01:21:10.175 --> 01:21:11.635
s 19 j
1108
01:21:12.735 --> 01:21:14.595
or an s 19 pro
1109
01:21:15.370 --> 01:21:17.550
don't work very well next to each other
1110
01:21:18.090 --> 01:21:19.290
because they have different
1111
01:21:21.130 --> 01:21:22.510
I don't know if it's temperature
1112
01:21:23.255 --> 01:21:28.635
sensors in them that will shut them down, but, like, one will be sucking in the other one's heat
1113
01:21:30.215 --> 01:21:42.445
or or however the airflow works. I can't exactly describe it, but they they will one will not run next to the other. But as soon as you replace the one with an identical model, then they're just fine.
1114
01:21:43.724 --> 01:21:55.600
1115
01:21:56.060 --> 01:21:59.360
1116
01:21:59.675 --> 01:22:02.335
once miners next year or some s nineteens,
1117
01:22:02.955 --> 01:22:03.855
see what happens.
1118
01:22:04.395 --> 01:22:05.775
1119
01:22:06.690 --> 01:22:08.790
BTC Boulder back into this conversation.
1120
01:22:09.489 --> 01:22:11.190
Boulder, we were talking about,
1121
01:22:13.489 --> 01:22:14.790
3 phase supply
1122
01:22:16.295 --> 01:22:22.875
before you joined. Before we even went live, we were talking about it. Neil brought it up. Ronan Miner brought it up.
1123
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:29.739
Ronan, you wanna hit him with the question that you had? I mean, I I just pulled up the question
1124
01:22:30.040 --> 01:22:30.540
that,
1125
01:22:31.880 --> 01:22:32.380
UberPwnage
1126
01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:33.500
posted.
1127
01:22:34.465 --> 01:22:38.645
He didn't actually post a question. He just said that 3 phase applies better.
1128
01:22:41.400 --> 01:22:43.980
What was your question again about 3 phase?
1129
01:22:44.760 --> 01:22:54.255
1130
01:22:54.635 --> 01:23:02.230
1131
01:23:02.690 --> 01:23:11.985
1132
01:23:12.540 --> 01:23:17.200
1133
01:23:17.580 --> 01:23:18.960
a 120 volts.
1134
01:23:19.505 --> 01:23:22.645
1135
01:23:23.745 --> 01:23:31.849
1136
01:23:32.389 --> 01:23:37.290
So you have to hit both those legs. 3 phase comes in as 3 legs, and then
1137
01:23:38.135 --> 01:23:39.755
I have 3 sets of 120.
1138
01:23:40.615 --> 01:23:44.955
Yep. See but you have to balance it. You can't just tap into 1120
1139
01:23:46.390 --> 01:23:47.930
and then another 120
1140
01:23:49.590 --> 01:23:51.530
and leave the 3rd leg
1141
01:23:53.190 --> 01:23:56.375
of 120 vacant. It would just it it won't work.
1142
01:23:56.775 --> 01:23:59.755
So if you have 3 phase, you have to run 3 minors
1143
01:24:00.295 --> 01:24:12.880
or yeah. 3. And you do leg 1 and leg 2, leg 2 and leg 3, and then leg 1 and leg 3. So you get your 240 to each of those miners. But my question was,
1144
01:24:14.625 --> 01:24:16.565
what's the benefit, and
1145
01:24:18.065 --> 01:24:21.045
what's the best way to do it? I don't I don't get that.
1146
01:24:22.210 --> 01:24:28.515
1147
01:24:29.475 --> 01:24:31.655
1148
01:24:34.275 --> 01:24:35.095
1149
01:24:36.870 --> 01:24:42.170
Alright. I'm trying to find a photo to share up here, but with United States, when you have,
1150
01:24:43.110 --> 01:24:44.490
when you have a breaker panel.
1151
01:24:44.925 --> 01:24:47.985
1152
01:24:48.605 --> 01:24:53.425
listeners because he every time he comes on, he just wants to share all the photos, but I do appreciate it.
1153
01:24:53.990 --> 01:24:56.970
1154
01:24:57.430 --> 01:24:59.210
1155
01:24:59.510 --> 01:25:02.330
1156
01:25:02.725 --> 01:25:04.105
zoning out, falling asleep.
1157
01:25:05.445 --> 01:25:11.225
Anyways, so if I understand it correctly, in the United States, all your residential power is,
1158
01:25:14.230 --> 01:25:15.050
is, 110.
1159
01:25:15.750 --> 01:25:16.250
And
1160
01:25:16.870 --> 01:25:17.370
if
1161
01:25:17.670 --> 01:25:20.250
the way that works is you have your power lines
1162
01:25:20.635 --> 01:25:25.055
and you got your transformer. And I believe all the transformer is doing is it's it's
1163
01:25:25.995 --> 01:25:27.455
it's scaling down
1164
01:25:28.130 --> 01:25:33.670
the amperage so that it can bring it into your house. Because if there's too much amperage in your house Scaling down the voltage.
1165
01:25:34.290 --> 01:25:37.350
Scaling down the voltage to bring it in your house. So you got a transformer,
1166
01:25:38.855 --> 01:25:46.074
and what happens is out of this transformer is 2 wires, and these 2 wires go directly into your breaker.
1167
01:25:46.730 --> 01:25:47.230
And
1168
01:25:47.850 --> 01:25:51.070
each of those wires is a 110 and a 110.
1169
01:25:52.650 --> 01:25:53.950
1170
01:25:55.055 --> 01:26:00.915
1171
01:26:01.670 --> 01:26:05.050
1172
01:26:05.590 --> 01:26:09.930
the 240 or the 208 depending on if it's commercial or residential.
1173
01:26:12.045 --> 01:26:21.730
1174
01:26:22.510 --> 01:26:27.890
or 240, I guess. And that's that's when you power your electric range, your electric,
1175
01:26:28.270 --> 01:26:28.770
oven,
1176
01:26:29.885 --> 01:26:31.025
your Bitcoin miners.
1177
01:26:32.204 --> 01:26:37.425
But when you're just doing, like, a standard outlet for your phone, it only takes one of those legs and
1178
01:26:38.190 --> 01:26:39.890
pushes that through your circuit. A neutral.
1179
01:26:40.670 --> 01:26:43.010
1180
01:26:44.190 --> 01:26:47.570
1181
01:26:48.014 --> 01:26:49.875
legs that come from your transformer.
1182
01:26:51.215 --> 01:26:53.795
Is it a 110, 110, 110? Or
1183
01:26:54.255 --> 01:26:54.755
1184
01:26:55.210 --> 01:27:08.025
Okay. And then you just have to do some, like The ground. Yep. Yeah. Wonky shift to be more specific. Yeah. Each each phase of it each phase of it, yeah, one 120 to ground is is what it is. And then each phase to phase
1185
01:27:08.965 --> 01:27:11.304
is 240 or 208 depending.
1186
01:27:11.870 --> 01:27:16.450
1187
01:27:17.150 --> 01:27:19.010
do not work on this information.
1188
01:27:20.514 --> 01:27:30.000
1189
01:27:31.820 --> 01:27:39.365
But, like, a licensed electrician is is is fairly cheap in the scheme of things and, well worth it. Do not kill yourself.
1190
01:27:41.825 --> 01:27:44.245
1191
01:27:48.070 --> 01:27:53.610
1192
01:27:54.389 --> 01:27:57.050
you tell them, yeah, okay. I have this
1193
01:27:57.895 --> 01:28:00.555
Bitcoin miner or if you wanna say like, I have this server
1194
01:28:00.935 --> 01:28:02.475
that needs 220.
1195
01:28:04.055 --> 01:28:07.510
He's gonna probably default to 2 phase. Right?
1196
01:28:10.130 --> 01:28:23.675
1197
01:28:24.870 --> 01:28:25.370
1198
01:28:26.150 --> 01:28:28.730
1199
01:28:31.110 --> 01:28:32.170
1200
01:28:33.085 --> 01:28:33.745
watts divided by
1201
01:28:34.525 --> 01:28:38.385
1202
01:28:38.845 --> 01:28:41.745
volt miners, it seems like that would be ideal.
1203
01:28:42.320 --> 01:28:48.500
It'd run more efficiently, but I don't think I don't I don't I haven't looked into to see if they ever make those or the power supplies or
1204
01:28:49.040 --> 01:28:50.580
1205
01:28:51.155 --> 01:28:54.275
They don't. But that's the equation that you work with is,
1206
01:28:54.835 --> 01:29:00.215
watts divided by volts equals amps. So as long as you can kick up those volts,
1207
01:29:00.650 --> 01:29:01.390
you're using
1208
01:29:02.490 --> 01:29:10.350
less amps, and amps are what you pay for in the end. Like, kilowatts are essentially just another version of amps.
1209
01:29:11.995 --> 01:29:14.975
So you're not you're not taking in the amount the quantity
1210
01:29:15.355 --> 01:29:16.735
amount of electric.
1211
01:29:17.115 --> 01:29:20.255
You're just taking it in faster, and you're taking it in
1212
01:29:22.350 --> 01:29:23.970
1213
01:29:24.350 --> 01:29:26.530
It's more efficient to run it at higher voltages.
1214
01:29:27.775 --> 01:29:32.355
1215
01:29:32.655 --> 01:29:33.775
And then what is
1216
01:29:34.175 --> 01:29:35.635
why do I not understand
1217
01:29:37.240 --> 01:29:38.060
if it's
1218
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:39.260
208-2083
1219
01:29:40.440 --> 01:29:45.900
1220
01:29:46.655 --> 01:29:48.675
If they were to have the horsepower,
1221
01:29:49.375 --> 01:29:52.035
if you were doing them at a 120 volts,
1222
01:29:52.415 --> 01:29:54.275
these massive motors that are
1223
01:30:05.114 --> 01:30:09.455
1224
01:30:12.440 --> 01:30:16.300
1225
01:30:18.199 --> 01:30:22.074
1226
01:30:22.614 --> 01:30:23.355
that's why,
1227
01:30:24.455 --> 01:30:33.510
data centers run on 3 phase. And I've talked to plenty of people that that do that, and I just never knew exactly why, and I couldn't understand
1228
01:30:34.530 --> 01:30:35.270
what the
1229
01:30:37.255 --> 01:30:42.235
what the trade offs were. I knew there had to been trade offs. Like, running single phase is easy.
1230
01:30:42.775 --> 01:30:44.155
Running 3 phase,
1231
01:30:44.810 --> 01:30:45.870
far more difficult.
1232
01:30:46.490 --> 01:30:50.430
1233
01:30:52.475 --> 01:30:54.895
1234
01:30:55.435 --> 01:31:05.320
1235
01:31:05.780 --> 01:31:09.239
You have your higher voltage that gives you a lower amperage draw.
1236
01:31:10.435 --> 01:31:12.215
So I assume that means you can have,
1237
01:31:12.755 --> 01:31:13.494
much lower
1238
01:31:14.835 --> 01:31:15.735
amp breakers.
1239
01:31:17.474 --> 01:31:21.070
1240
01:31:21.450 --> 01:31:26.270
because power is actually measured in a ounce, not volts or anything like that. Like, your consumption
1241
01:31:27.155 --> 01:31:29.895
doesn't matter how many volts you can sum consume.
1242
01:31:30.675 --> 01:31:38.120
1243
01:31:40.020 --> 01:31:44.360
What what are you calling out? We lost you when you were saying if you're running a big motor.
1244
01:31:47.085 --> 01:31:49.725
1245
01:31:51.645 --> 01:31:55.500
voltage, but it's still as much as you're getting charged is the the kilowatt
1246
01:31:56.199 --> 01:31:57.100
on it. But
1247
01:31:57.480 --> 01:32:02.725
it's more just the efficiency of the equipment you're running with it. I I think it's the higher voltage is where it's beneficial.
1248
01:32:03.185 --> 01:32:05.925
1249
01:32:08.705 --> 01:32:14.090
1250
01:32:14.950 --> 01:32:17.450
the when it's getting before it gets used,
1251
01:32:18.150 --> 01:32:19.690
like, your loss of electricity
1252
01:32:20.285 --> 01:32:22.145
is less when you're using higher voltage
1253
01:32:22.765 --> 01:32:24.065
because you're losing it
1254
01:32:24.845 --> 01:32:26.465
via resistance and wire.
1255
01:32:27.325 --> 01:32:31.949
1256
01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:34.190
I don't know if I have one up.
1257
01:32:34.750 --> 01:32:45.395
You see that the tera hash just goes like like, the variance is pretty crazy. Like, if you're running a 100 terahash minor, you can see that it's going way high and way low. Is that due to inefficiencies
1258
01:32:45.775 --> 01:32:46.094
and,
1259
01:32:47.000 --> 01:32:54.860
1260
01:32:55.285 --> 01:32:59.225
like, they're only receiving maybe 1 in every few 100,000,000,000,000
1261
01:33:00.085 --> 01:33:01.945
hashes that the miner is doing.
1262
01:33:02.250 --> 01:33:06.270
And that's how the the pool can, like, validate each share that's being submitted
1263
01:33:06.650 --> 01:33:13.245
without doing the same amount of proof of work as the actual miners are doing and consuming all of that energy a second time.
1264
01:33:14.825 --> 01:33:18.365
1265
01:33:19.225 --> 01:33:19.725
like,
1266
01:33:20.849 --> 01:33:21.510
a different
1267
01:33:22.290 --> 01:33:24.469
am I getting, like, a sign wave of different,
1268
01:33:24.849 --> 01:33:29.670
voltages going through that and it's charging at different speeds depending on what's going through there?
1269
01:33:33.835 --> 01:33:34.655
1270
01:33:35.355 --> 01:33:37.500
efficiency on what are you plugging your phone in?
1271
01:33:38.780 --> 01:33:45.360
1272
01:33:45.985 --> 01:33:49.125
1273
01:33:50.545 --> 01:33:54.005
that you're losing it. You're not getting it as much of it to the
1274
01:33:54.770 --> 01:33:56.150
actual use of it versus
1275
01:33:56.450 --> 01:33:58.470
power loss of other electrical,
1276
01:34:01.170 --> 01:34:02.390
resistance you're getting.
1277
01:34:03.075 --> 01:34:07.895
1278
01:34:08.675 --> 01:34:11.495
with 1 phase or 2 phase relative to 3 phase?
1279
01:34:14.350 --> 01:34:16.850
1280
01:34:18.590 --> 01:34:19.890
1281
01:34:21.925 --> 01:34:25.945
Watts divided by volts equals amps. So if you wanna keep
1282
01:34:27.045 --> 01:34:28.505
your amps stable,
1283
01:34:29.060 --> 01:34:31.160
because that's the amps you need to run the machine,
1284
01:34:32.739 --> 01:34:33.239
and
1285
01:34:33.540 --> 01:34:35.320
you want to divide
1286
01:34:36.625 --> 01:34:38.565
the watts by volts
1287
01:34:38.945 --> 01:34:40.165
when you increase
1288
01:34:41.345 --> 01:34:42.165
the volts,
1289
01:34:42.705 --> 01:34:44.245
which 3 phase does,
1290
01:34:44.830 --> 01:34:46.370
then you're saving on efficiency.
1291
01:34:47.950 --> 01:34:49.010
Does that make sense?
1292
01:34:49.550 --> 01:34:55.815
1293
01:34:56.835 --> 01:34:58.375
with the electrical system.
1294
01:34:59.715 --> 01:35:00.215
1295
01:35:08.820 --> 01:35:09.880
Moving on.
1296
01:35:10.715 --> 01:35:12.574
1297
01:35:12.875 --> 01:35:16.655
as far as trying to balance out whenever the electricity is more expensive
1298
01:35:17.650 --> 01:35:21.110
and trying to have it where you're charging up batteries when it's
1299
01:35:21.730 --> 01:35:25.270
1300
01:35:26.155 --> 01:35:30.415
1301
01:35:30.795 --> 01:35:37.000
running the a 6, then you switch over the batteries whenever it gets expensive, but you don't have to kill the a 6. You can run them full speed
1302
01:35:37.540 --> 01:35:39.000
and just switch over the battery.
1303
01:35:39.380 --> 01:35:43.560
1304
01:35:44.085 --> 01:35:44.825
1305
01:35:45.205 --> 01:35:49.785
those are gonna need to be replaced, and there is always storage loss.
1306
01:35:50.405 --> 01:36:01.290
So it's not one for 1. It's not like you're charging the battery up, and it's giving you back the same amount of power later. You're better off just buying more miners and running them during the cheaper times. Right? Yep. And then shutting them off.
1307
01:36:02.535 --> 01:36:04.555
1308
01:36:05.895 --> 01:36:06.395
1309
01:36:09.015 --> 01:36:09.515
Yep.
1310
01:36:10.060 --> 01:36:16.239
Because, like, what's the like, the storage loss on a on, like, a typical battery is, like, insane, isn't it?
1311
01:36:17.785 --> 01:36:18.685
1312
01:36:19.145 --> 01:36:21.405
That's why wind and solar don't make any sense.
1313
01:36:25.930 --> 01:36:29.390