Sept. 15, 2021
CD38: improving your bitcoin mining setup with @bigcohoo, @janbraiins, @coinheated, @roninminer, @upstreamdatainc, and @martybent
EPISODE: 38
BLOCK: 700568
PRICE: 2150 sats per dollar
TOPICS: improving your bitcoin mining setup, using custom firmware, immersion mining, stratum v2, hosted mining, coinbase rewards, upstreamdata black box
@bigcohoo: https://twitter.com/bigcohoo
@janbraiins: https://twitter.com/janbraiins
@coinheated: https://twitter.com/coinheated
@roninminer: https://twitter.com/roninminer
@upstreamdatainc: https://twitter.com/upstreamdatainc
@martybent: https://twitter.com/martybent
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00:00 - Crypto as a hedge or alternative
01:54 - Citadel Dispatch and Bitcoin mining
05:38 - Improving mining setup with firmware
21:20 - Immersion cooling and fan usage
01:18:47 - Benefits of Stratum v2
01:29:00 - Stratum v2 and bandwidth efficiency
01:31:36 - Noise protocol and security
01:35:37 - Incentive to use prototype implementation
01:36:25 - Transaction selection and block agreement
01:37:42 - Invalid block proposal and pool rejection
02:20:29 - Getting started with mining
02:21:11 - The loudness of mining machines
02:23:00 - Power requirements for mining machines
02:26:51 - Final thoughts from the panelists
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:13:09 PM
Duration: 9337.652
Channels: 1
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Of crypto,
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I think within the firm, probably more so than than many others.
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Where do you see that now? We talked about what what El Salvador did this week, but it it speaks to all the issues that you're dealing with here, which is which is what are real rates,
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what's the value of money?
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So so, you know, that's it. It's tricky subject. So first of all, I'll say the first thing I will say on crypto,
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you know, people describe it as a hedge or an alternative. I'm not sure it's a really great hedge. I mean, the correlation to equities, the correlation to risk assets,
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I'm not sure it's a great hedge, by the way. So when an asset moves 10 to 15% a day, really hard to hedge big organic asset pools with that as a hedge. Is it, you know, is it an alternative currency? Listen. I've said and I've said and I've said it with with you, Andrew. Listen. Part of why I own a small piece of Bitcoin is I do think there are more people that are gonna enter that fray over time. We have a very moderate
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position in our portfolio.
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I like, quite frankly, are volatile that have upside convexity,
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And I could see Bitcoin like it's done. I could see it go up significantly.
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But listen, I think it's volatile. I don't think it's a core asset class like like bonds are or like stocks are. But I think it's you know, to have a bit as more of a speculative tool in a portfolio, yeah, I think I think there's some value to that. Before I let
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt O'Dell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
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We got a great show lined up here. I'm very excited for it. To the freaks that are joining us after the fact through the audio,
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that was, Rick Ryder,
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on CNBC.
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He's a managing director of BlackRock. They have $2,400,000,000,000
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worth of assets under management,
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and he likes to dabble in Bitcoin.
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This is Citadel dispatch 38.
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The focus will be on mining and improving your mining setup.
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This is a natural follow-up to Citadel dispatch 31,
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which you can find citadel dispatch.com/cd31,
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which was our first, mining focused
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panel.
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And this one is is is basically gonna be improving your setup from there.
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So we won't start with the basics. We're gonna go from basically where that left off.
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Before we get started,
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huge shout out as always to the ride or dive freaks in the live chat, whether that's through Twitch, YouTube, or Twitter.
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You guys make this show special. You guys make Bitcoin Tuesday special, so thank you again for joining us. And, also, shout out to all the freaks who support the show.
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Keep it ad free and sponsor free. I appreciate you guys tremendously.
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Really thank you for the support. It means a lot.
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So let's just dive into this. I mean, I we got a massive panel here.
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I couldn't help myself. We just got so many great voices in Bitcoin mining that were willing to join us for this conversation, so I couldn't say no.
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First and foremost,
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we have Big Kahuna.
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We have we have we actually have 2 guys from brains. We have Big Kahuna. How's it going, Big Kahuna?
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Doing alright. How are you doing?
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He works at brains,
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man of many hats.
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We have Jonathan,
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coin heated.
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Hello. Big focus on immersion mining. How's it going, Jonathan?
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Awesome. Glad to be here.
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We got Marty Bent, my co host at Rabbit Hole Recap. His first time on Civil Dispatch,
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man behind Great American Mining. How's it going, Marty?
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It's going great, Matt. Thank you for having me. It's, it's fun to finally be on the Citadel Dispatch side of things.
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Yeah. It's truly a pleasure. I mean, I tried to get your dad, but we'll we'll you know, it's it's fine that we got the son instead.
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We also have Jan, cofounder of Brains. How's it going, Jan?
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Pretty good. Thanks for having me here.
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We have Brett from Upstream Data.
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How's it going, Brett?
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Hey. How's it going, Adele?
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We got Neil
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Ronan Miner. He's a return guest. He was on CITL dispatch 31.
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He's probably, like, 3 claws deep. How's it going, Neil?
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Three claws deep, man. It's gone.
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Did I nail it? Are you 3 claws deep? Nailed it. There we go. There we go.
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So the focus of today will be on improving your Bitcoin mining setup. We have 2 main topics to discuss,
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upgrading your firmware,
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specifically to brains OS. That's why we got 2 brains guys here,
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and also immersion mining, which is, you know, putting your miners,
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liquid cooling them instead of air cooling them.
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But we will also be talking about all things mining.
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Feel free to put your questions,
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in the live chat as always if you'd like to get them answered. If we don't answer them right away, I will be writing down any ones that are good, and we'll come back to them.
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With all that said, I think Big Kuna wants to start us off with some history. So why don't we start there?
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Yeah. I thought we were gonna be a little bit classy and not even drop the the brand's OS, firmware shell, but but I guess we're starting starting off right with that.
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Anyways, Yeah. So, Matt, you you like to talk a lot about how you you buy phones and flash your own custom firmware on that. And I think that's that's very,
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you know, very useful when you when you think about firmware for,
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miners. Because you you you buy these phones, and you own all the rights to them. You can do whatever you want with them. You can
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run them over with your truck if you want to.
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I guess the only thing you sacrifice,
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when you flash custom firmware on there is that you might void the warranty. But but for all
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purposes, you you own everything about that phone. And the same thing is the same thing goes for these mining hardware,
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that you buy from from all these manufacturers.
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You buy the hardware and it's shipped to you, and you you're kinda just forced to trust that what's on there is
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is sufficient. What what they what firmware they put on there is trustworthy, and,
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they're not doing anything sketchy with that.
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And so,
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I mean, that kinda goes with the ethos of Bitcoin where, you know, we're we're supposed to validate our own keys, our private keys,
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run our own nodes so that we can make sure
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no one's screwing us over,
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you know, don't trust verify. And that there should be an option with that with miners as
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well.
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And for the longest time when these ASICs started coming out, there really wasn't an option for that,
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until
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I guess there was 2 instances where
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these manufacturers
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kind of breached the trust of their customers.
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There was something called Amplead that came out with one of the manufacturers. And
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if you guys don't know what Amplead is, what this is is,
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it it was
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it was,
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it was found out that
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one of the manufacturers had a backdoor in
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in their firmware, and what this allowed them to do was pretty much anything. They could they could access your
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hardware remotely and shut it off,
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redirect the hash. They could they could do all this nefarious stuff with that. And
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that's absolutely terrifying because when ASICs first came out, there really was not many
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there wasn't any competition out there. So they they really cornered the market. They they could have,
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you know, they could have,
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really hurt the
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the integrity of the Bitcoin network,
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not just from the miners,
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but, you know, all the users as well. If if they were to implement anything or do anything nefarious with that backdoor, then that really would have screwed over the entire network.
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Probably would have set us back a few years.
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So that that's kind of the first instance. The other one was Cover Basicboost.
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The same manufacturer,
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well,
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essentially, what what happened was 2 researchers
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found that there was a way to
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restructure, do something fancy with the block header to improve the efficiency of
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mining chips.
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And,
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it was it was suspected that the manufacturer
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had implemented this in their chips,
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and we found or, yeah, we found out that,
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they were using this at home, but when they shipped the product out to their customers,
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they would retract this. They would they would use ASIC Boost for themselves, and then they would eliminate it when they sold it to their customers so that they always had a competitive edge,
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versus the the rest of the network.
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So those are just like 2 real life stories of things that have happened with these these hardwares
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that, you know, really made it necessary to have an open source firmware,
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or have other
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competition out there. And when you look at the the
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the market today, you have a couple different manufacturers that are all competing with each other, challenging each other, making each other better. And now you have,
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know, custom firmware like Brains OS where
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you can take this hardware, flash your own firmware on it, and
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you get a lot of pros out of doing that. There are some cons, but it's mostly pros.
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And this this also adds just more and more competition to
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these these hardware manufacturers to improve their setup and whatnot.
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That that was kind of the history lesson I wanted to go through because I think that's a really great introduction for this conversation as we go into
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some of the pros and cons of this stuff and how
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how custom firmware can improve your setup.
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Both both of those,
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examples you gave
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were Bitmain focused,
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Ampliad and Covert ASIC Boost.
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Is that part of the reason why your firmware currently only supports,
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Bitmain, ASICs, and not Whatsminer?
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Is that why the focus started there?
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I I mean, I think Han can can speak to this a little bit more, but, that was specifically why they started with the well, we started with the Dragon Mints, but that's why we we put a lot of our focus in the business. Dragon Mints.
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Yeah. So what what's really the first firmware supported in right. So as was Dragon Mints. But by the time we were publishing the first version,
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we saw that the most popular miner out there is s nine. And it was actually
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at that time, it was still possible to download the CG minor sources that,
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supported,
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s nines without basic boost, and we could have based our firmware off of this,
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providing the rest of the operating system,
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from
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general open source.
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So that that was the beginning of the story. But I think the manufacturer, with with time, realized that they can tighten the screws a bit more. And I think with the upcoming generations,
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I can't tell exactly,
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which version. But I think the s nine was really the very last one where you could download bits and pieces of the of the source code. And if you had enough engineering skills, so it was not like
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a simple job of just executing a single script that you would have an image that you can run on your own,
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you would be able to have your own firmware for for the s nines at that time, which I found
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it's okay. But at the same time, it's kind of already a violation of the GPL
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11, s s 15, they they didn't even bother to publish, a single piece. But, I mean, I didn't ex I didn't,
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do the research at that time because we skipped these generations because they I think they released only,
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small batches of of machines. And the next major
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generation, which was which was not very successful, will be was the,
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or the x x seventeens,
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where this was the case. Just just you would get, like, nothing about about the machine that that you
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bought. And now with the X nineteens, it's it's getting even worse where, there's a new super great feature called, Secure Boot,
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which pretty much
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prevents,
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running, an alternative firmware in a standard way because the the the whole boot chain from from the ROM folder is, secured. So it does an RSA,
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key check. And you can tell that that man is currently not really willing to sign, 3rd party firmwares.
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So So you're out of luck, or
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did you figure out a way around it?
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That that that, that is difficult to to to answer because we we
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we we have a way around it, but,
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the problem is, that it is a hassle. Right? You you buy a machine that you think you own it, so you think you can do anything you want with it like you do with your cell phone. But that's not the case anymore.
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You have a a bunch of alternatives. You can swap out the control boards because, for example, the control boards on x nineteens are the same as on x seventeens.
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So if you're lucky, you can just switch it. But but if you're a big farm with a lot of machines, this is a costly operation. You can exchange the the CPU on the control board,
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because this one is unusable. It has the OTP,
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one time programmable,
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registers or fuses. That's what they they're called eFuse. They are burned basically,
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saying this is the public key that needs to be used in order to boot the next stage bootloader,
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and that pretty much
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is game over for for booting something alternative on the original control board.
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So
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your mileage may vary depending on, like, how much,
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effort you you put out in order to to run alternative firmware.
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So, Jan, while I have you,
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when what's minor?
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2 That's what we got off. Right?
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2 weeks, 2 months, trademark? 2 weeks. The phase 2 weeks. I'm still waiting for my Butterfly Labs in 2 weeks. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
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No. It's, it's really,
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so
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so the current roadmap is that we have a
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a private, beta testing of X19, and what comes after that are the Whatsminers.
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The Whatsminers are already being tested. So it's not that that you're starting the implementation, the What's Miners are, in the test process.
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And then I guess for both you and Big Kuna,
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so there's 2 versions of brains OS.
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Are are what's the difference? Are are they both open source, or is only the basic one open source?
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There's the the brands OS is open source, and then brands OS plus is closed source because we we add an additional feature in there,
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called auto tuning. And auto tuning is is kind of the way that we make a little bit of money off this.
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What it does is it takes every single chip on each of the hashboards and optimizes the,
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the performance that you get out of those. So you imagine you buy a miner from a manufacturer,
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and they wanna sell it as a,
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you know, as a specific number. You know, you get an s nine. It get at 1400 watts. It gives you 13.5 terahash.
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But if you take and you tune each of the the chips on there, you can gain, like, you know, point 1, point 2 percent efficiencies out of every single one. And since there's hundreds of chips in there,
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you you can geek out up to, like, 25% efficiency gains. So that that auto tuning feature
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is the the only thing that isn't open source.
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And does that have a cost attached to it, or are they both,
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like, free as in free lunch? The way so the open source version is free. The way that the auto tuning
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or the the closed source version works
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is we're due a 2% fee. So your hash just gets donated to us as a dev fee.
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And it's kind of a win win because you get up to a 25% efficiency gain,
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which will cover that cost,
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but then
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but then we're also making a little bit more because that 2% is is a larger piece of pie.
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And then
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if you use slash pool on top of that, then we waive the pool fee. So,
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in most cases, you're getting the same exact fee,
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overall, but a higher performance.
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So you just answered my next question. You don't have to use slush pool? You do not have to use slush pool. But if you don't, then you will also be charged the fee of the,
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the pool, which is not a lot, but it's, you know, it's incentive to to work with us. And why not use the best pool available?
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Obviously.
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So let's bring everyone else in. Does anyone here actually use Brains OS? I'm pretty sure Brett does.
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Yep. I'm exclusively,
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Brains.
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Let's go. I don't I don't currently, but when I had when I had s nine because I really only run What's Miners right now, but
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I mean, I always had brains OS
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on my s nines.
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And,
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I mean, the efficiency gains or at least the Terahash gains, I guess, I didn't monitor the efficiency that well, but the Terahash gains were insane.
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Easily 25%.
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Yeah. I got my first s nine and just a stock firmware, figuring out what on Earth I was doing, then I I found the open source stuff. I love open source,
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and then got brains loaded on there. And,
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with the exception of best 19s I have, I run nothing but brain stuff.
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Yeah.
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Basically, same thing with us. Like,
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I actually,
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like,
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constantly am shilling brains OS because I I love the firmware. Ever since
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I found out about brains OS plus, I it's basically just been, like, if we can get miners that can support brains OS plus, we should be running them all the time because the efficiency gains are awesome. The overall terahash gains are awesome. And for us in the specific,
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in the specific way that we're doing things as in, like, putting out, putting out basically data centers for clients,
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We also need to be able to change the wattage on each and every single one of these units. So we can have units that range anywhere from, like, 90 kilowatts
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up to almost a megawatt.
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And so
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if if we're, say, running too
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hot or we're using up too much power off the engine, we the nice thing about BrainOS is we just pick a wattage, we drop every minor down to that wattage,
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and we're good to go. Like, we can we can reduce load on everything which makes it really nice.
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Yeah. And and that range that you get is awesome. You know, going down to,
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what, like, a half or a third of stock and well beyond,
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that range to work with is just awesome.
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And you can also make the argument by making things more profitable
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that you're extending the the life time of the hardware, like, s nines, I think I think brains actually did some nonce,
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data
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scouring and found that somewhat something like 25% of network hash rate still s nines. Like, how much,
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how many of those machines are still running because they're running running brains which makes them, still profitable.
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That's, like, another interesting
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variable to think about here. Marty, do you guys at Great American
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exclusively run Whatsminer?
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As of right now, yeah. We're we're not opposed to,
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Bitmain. I mean, we did have a a chunk of Bitmain s nines, and
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when we ran those when we tested those, I believe we ran brains on those as well.
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But right now, yeah, we're just
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all of our containers are are packed with what's minors as of right now.
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Brett, are you you guys are the opposite, right, at upstream?
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Are Yeah. Are you purely Bitmain?
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We we pretty much stick to s nines,
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unless, like, a client says, hey. We have our own miners or we want this specifically.
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We just say, like, get us nines because, again, you're running on free power. There's no point in running, like, a brand new, s 19, and this is what I tell people. It's like, why would you buy a brand new, like, 10, $15,000
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computer and then put it out in a dirty, dusty, like, hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere and get it wrecked? Like, there's just no point.
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Oh, so the oil first.
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Sorry?
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So, if you throw in an oil tank first, then then,
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but, we'll we'll get to that.
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Yep. Immersion. Immersion. Another thing brainwaves is great for because it lets you control the fans and shut them all off. Yep. I'm saying and think. So I do have a question. Is there was there any,
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validity to the argue
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or I don't know if it was even an argument or if it was just people shouting on Twitter, but,
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they were thinking that
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the brains OS
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was burning up their hashing boards,
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or, like or or there was too much power going to them or something. People were claiming that for a little while. I don't know if it was a
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they were overclocking them
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or I don't I'm I actually I'm I'm authentically curious about
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Git. Did you ever see that?
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You get a lot of extra features in when you use custom firmware. Like, I guess when you use Whatsminer
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or Antminer's stock firmware, you're very limited to use it how they want you to use it.
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And with when you use a custom firmware like brands, you
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you do get to unlock a lot of potential in the miners, and that does allow you to overclock, underclock,
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mess with the the temperature settings and everything. And and I'm sure John can talk in in great depth about this, but I think that there are cases where people do hurt their own machines.
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But by default, it's set up to be,
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you know, very safe, and then it's kinda at your own risk to
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to, you know, mess with the settings. Yeah. You start turn turn pushing the buttons and turning the dials. Yeah. And then I never messed with any of that, so I never actually personally
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with my any of the s nines that I was running it on, I never had problems with it. But,
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I don't know. I I saw people talking about it, and I was like, well, what are you doing that's goofy with it? But It's it's the same idea as what you mentioned earlier, Kahuna, with, like, your your own phone. Like, you can flash custom firmware on your phone, but if you brick your phone in doing that or you mess something up, like, that's kind of on you. There's so much support out there for something like Brainz OS. Like, there's there's tons of people out there willing to help with that, But I think it's just people making possibly bad decisions about how much power they should be putting into their chips because you can, like, from what I've seen,
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brings west stays the most efficient around 900 to 1200
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watts, which is actually lower than, like, what Bitmain would initially put in. I think they put in something like 1300.
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And so, again, Jan Capek, from brains might have to speak more on this because I think he knows more about this than I do.
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But I think it's really just based on people making their own decisions with their chips, and they you have to be smart about it. Right?
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Oh, for sure.
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So I I've taken an s nine with brains in oil up to 24 100 watts,
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you know, and you could never do that on on
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what 1 on software and 2 on air.
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You know, you have to disable the stuff. And if you do that, if you uncheck the disables, uncheck this, and and, you know, of course, you you can push it well beyond to the point of buying it.
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And if you go beyond the
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yeah. If if you go beyond the stock limitations,
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then you're into a territory of it was wasn't designed for that specifically,
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it might happen.
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What I wanna know is how much hash rate did you get out of that, baby?
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Yeah. It was,
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I wanna say it was 20 something.
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It was ridiculous.
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And and I ran it for a couple days that way. It was just plugging along at 24100. It was the most I could set it to in brains at the time, I think.
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Oh my god.
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And I did a s 17.
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So I used a stock,
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power supply. I disabled 1 card. You you should give, you should give the listeners, like, like, a base on how how that that machine is supposed to run before you go into how much you geeked out of it.
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Right. So on that s 17,
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stock for 3 cards is around it's I think it's 3,040
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watts.
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And so the specific one I had was a 76
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t,
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and so that that would be static. So it's about a 1000 watts per card,
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and about 25
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terash per
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per card.
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So I decided, like, you know what? I wanna see what these things can really do. And so in a in a isolated
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tank, I I I put 1 miner in a in an oil tank and on its own radiator
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and disabled one card because, brains will
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you you get a maximum power total, and then it divides it across the 3 cards. So I just kept running it up and up and up, and I ended up getting to 4850,
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which I think it divided it up then into like 1600 some odd lots
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per card,
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and I ended up at,
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it was like 30
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38
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tera hash per card. If it was all 4 cards, it would have been a 104 tera hash.
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So it was almost a 50% increase.
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I don't have an s 17. That's insane. Yeah. I have an s 17. And I think there was still room to go, but,
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with 2 cars power that gets close, you know, that was like a 33 100 watts, which is beyond the stock limit of the of that power supply. So
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and I I tried it with even just a single card and I didn't get it much further past that. I think I got to,
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well, end up 5,000 is where the brains is caps. And I'm sure it's just a logical barrier, not a technical barrier.
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So people don't die and do an air cooled and put it to 5,000 watts
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and cry when their miner catches fire. Or their house catches
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fire. Yeah. That's Oh, yeah.
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Just a short comment. You're you're perfectly right because
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the the current limits on the next gen machines, even starting with x seventeens,
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I want to say that the x seventeens, when they're immersed and
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never
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run, on air cooling, then they behave
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quite well because they don't disorder. But they must have never been run with air cooling.
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Then you can get really,
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good numbers like you mentioned.
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And I think it is possible to go even beyond.
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We have raised the the frequency limits,
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a bit, with the upcoming release again.
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So the only limitation is really how are you gonna,
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allocate your hash boards. And one idea that I had is basically just start taking out harvesting the 3rd card and basically building a spare miner in the container.
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So basically, every every 2 miners, you get another miner. You just need an extra power supply and a control board.
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Yeah.
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I really like that idea. That's something that we're gonna have to look into at some point because
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that's something that I mean, I I
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I kind of I personally,
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we're testing a lot with immersion, and I found it, very logical if we we don't have a large, facility for mining ourselves because
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writing the firmware is slightly different sport than running, like, big mining. But we have some testing facility.
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And this is what we do when when we wanna test the the maximum limits. I mean, never count on 3 cards. But I mentioned it to one of our customers, and they were kind of, like, surprised saying, oh, well, that's interesting.
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We never thought about this. But I think it's an economical way how to scale your operation. Because if if, the efficiency numbers work out for you,
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it is expected that you will not be running at,
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38
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joules per tera hash. That's not gonna happen. But you'll probably land,
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somewhere around 40, 44, 45.
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And that is, I think, considering the the current difficulty and
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exchange rate,
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most operations would be profitable. And what matters is to get as as many coins as possible. Right? Do you do you have any subways over there? You can expand your operation.
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Like Subway restaurants.
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Okay.
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Sorry about taking over the empty empty spaces from COVID.
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Yeah.
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I don't think there's just one somewhere in Prague, I think.
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I should check if it's still open.
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I I guess to go down the the immersion thing a little bit more,
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for for the listeners, the
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you've heard a lot of bad things about these s seventeens and them just failing,
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you know, them being an unreliable hardware.
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And we're kinda to a point where if if the hardware has already failed, it's, you know, it's it's gone. But the the main issue was that when they designed it, they just didn't design it to cool well enough. So,
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you know,
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Jonathan's been able
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to fix a lot of this with his immersion testing,
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because that gives it, like, perfect cooling, and that that really allows you to strain the,
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strain the setup. Yeah. Matt just pulled up a video of of
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Jonathan's garage if you wanted to talk through it or something.
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Yeah. Sure. So and also I found so those are all s seventeens.
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Actually, with there's 1 s 19 in there. That's the one that's at an angle. I just kinda threw that in there to test some other stuff with. But, right now they're all s seventeens in oil.
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But what I've found too is that
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the s seventeens have actually been very reliable for me.
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Now I also have this, along with them being in an oil tank, it's also connected to a 17,000
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gallon,
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water pool,
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which is actually just a swimming pool for my kids.
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And,
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in a daily 24 hour cycle,
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it only fluctuates by maybe 2 degrees.
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So it keeps very, very stable temperatures even if the outside temperature
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changes like 40 degrees.
399
00:31:19.770 --> 00:31:22.429
So these ones actually still have fans on right there.
400
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There's fans on the backside that kinda help with the flow.
401
00:31:26.705 --> 00:31:30.885
And some people are you, oh, you can't have fans, can't you gotta take them off. Like, well,
402
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these are the the
403
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the tanks.
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This one here, there's 5 of them. There's no fans in that. That one runs about a 135 degrees Fahrenheit.
405
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The ones with fans run at 120.
406
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Everything else is the same. Of course, it's 5 minors instead of 4, but,
407
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but, yeah, I actually haven't had any problems with fans, running in oil specifically.
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One of the things we should mention,
409
00:31:57.560 --> 00:32:06.865
we forgot to say this earlier, but just quickly. When he says that he had an s nine running at 20 terahashes per second, just to illustrate how ridiculous that is,
410
00:32:07.725 --> 00:32:12.500
normally, bit main s nines run at about 13 and a half. So that's like a 70%
411
00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:15.940
increase in hash rate from running this thing in oil.
412
00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:17.460
Like, that's insane.
413
00:32:18.215 --> 00:32:21.195
And, so I think that I I believe the stock
414
00:32:21.815 --> 00:32:23.115
frequency is 550
415
00:32:23.655 --> 00:32:27.960
megahertz, if I remember right. And I know for sure it was
416
00:32:28.760 --> 00:32:29.580
it was like
417
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:31.659
950 something megahertz.
418
00:32:32.679 --> 00:32:39.075
So, I mean, yeah, it was a lot. It was like almost a 100% increase in in clock speed.
419
00:32:40.095 --> 00:32:44.275
Yeah. He basically bought another miner and put it in there, but
420
00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:45.350
he didn't.
421
00:32:46.370 --> 00:32:56.085
And you were saying the efficiency went down, but I mean and it was stable, though. That's that's the thing. You were saying coin heated, though, also. I think you were telling me that,
422
00:32:58.165 --> 00:33:00.345
even with the fans running in the oil,
423
00:33:01.110 --> 00:33:03.850
it slows the fans down so much that
424
00:33:04.710 --> 00:33:06.810
not only are they not making a gigantic
425
00:33:08.184 --> 00:33:12.445
disturbance in the in the fluid or cavitation or anything like that
426
00:33:14.425 --> 00:33:23.630
that just because the machine was cool enough to slow the fans down, that it really wasn't actually even a much larger power draw than just not having fans at all?
427
00:33:24.735 --> 00:33:28.995
Right. So, I mean, I'm I'm running 2 fans on the ones that are upright.
428
00:33:29.935 --> 00:33:30.755
You know, there's
429
00:33:31.535 --> 00:33:32.035
the
430
00:33:32.415 --> 00:33:33.715
the main running,
431
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:38.940
quote, right way to do it is to have it vertical,
432
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:45.005
and then to have the oil flow from the bottom up, and then over a lip into overflow.
433
00:33:47.385 --> 00:33:52.240
But I've been running it both ways. I've been running an overflow one. I've been running one vertical. I've been
434
00:33:52.800 --> 00:33:55.220
I've run pretty much just about every possible
435
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.420
configuration in a single tank that you could do.
436
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.059
4 fans, 2 fans, 1 fan.
437
00:34:01.885 --> 00:34:04.385
Even with one fan from an an s 17,
438
00:34:04.924 --> 00:34:06.365
it still actually runs
439
00:34:06.845 --> 00:34:08.065
keeps it cool enough
440
00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:11.240
being horizontal like your standard,
441
00:34:12.020 --> 00:34:15.640
that it would be it it doesn't overheat, and it's just wild.
442
00:34:16.895 --> 00:34:18.835
I'm actually working with some fan manufacturers
443
00:34:19.135 --> 00:34:20.595
to see if I can get them
444
00:34:20.895 --> 00:34:25.220
to send me an STL file with fan blades, and have somebody modify that,
445
00:34:25.700 --> 00:34:30.440
fan blade, and actually make a fan design for in oil use.
446
00:34:31.060 --> 00:34:33.240
So it would be useless in air,
447
00:34:33.725 --> 00:34:34.785
but it would actually
448
00:34:35.165 --> 00:34:43.420
work quite well in oil. Yeah. So it'd have it would have way I think me and you were talking about this. Yeah. Or it'd have way less resistance in liquid
449
00:34:44.200 --> 00:34:44.700
than
450
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:48.780
the resistance that you need in air to push all that airflow.
451
00:34:49.155 --> 00:34:50.455
And then you could
452
00:34:50.755 --> 00:34:51.255
circumnavigate
453
00:34:51.715 --> 00:34:52.675
the the,
454
00:34:53.795 --> 00:34:56.935
because otherwise otherwise, if you take the fans off, you're gonna need
455
00:34:57.940 --> 00:34:58.760
fan spoofers.
456
00:35:00.180 --> 00:35:01.180
And Right.
457
00:35:01.620 --> 00:35:02.440
Those are
458
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:03.320
unreliable
459
00:35:03.620 --> 00:35:08.815
at best. I mean, you got you got some good ones for the s nineteens, but it sounds like the ones for
460
00:35:09.355 --> 00:35:11.214
anything what's minor is kinda
461
00:35:11.890 --> 00:35:15.110
garbage right now. For for, I guess, the listeners,
462
00:35:15.650 --> 00:35:24.175
fan spoofers. When you when you have stock firmware on some of these hardwares, you cannot disable the fans. If you unplug them or tamper with them, they will not work.
463
00:35:24.875 --> 00:35:30.810
So a a benefit of having, like, a custom firmware is that you can you can just check a box disable them,
464
00:35:31.670 --> 00:35:32.810
which allows you
465
00:35:33.190 --> 00:35:39.815
to, out of the box, use use immersion cooling. And people sell these things called fan spoofers. They look like
466
00:35:40.454 --> 00:35:43.515
like, you know, something you just plug into the fan. Almost.
467
00:35:43.974 --> 00:35:47.515
Yeah. I think I think I think the actual term for them is fan emulators,
468
00:35:47.815 --> 00:35:50.200
but Yep. Yeah. They're just, yeah,
469
00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:54.120
fancy stickers. So it's a it's a 4 pin thing that
470
00:35:54.740 --> 00:35:55.720
gets the the,
471
00:35:56.180 --> 00:35:56.680
PWM
472
00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:58.040
sense from
473
00:35:58.505 --> 00:36:01.005
the control board and sends back attack
474
00:36:01.625 --> 00:36:07.805
reply back to the miner saying, yeah. I'm going the speed that you want me to go at when there's really no fan at all.
475
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:12.619
But the downside of running a fan simulator
476
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:13.819
is that,
477
00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:16.059
what I found in oil is that,
478
00:36:17.855 --> 00:36:23.075
you know, so far, I've actually found it beneficial to have some fan on there even at a very low RPM.
479
00:36:25.010 --> 00:36:32.950
Just to have a little bit extra flow going over the heat sinks themselves rather than allowing the just the heat to rise with a a slow flow.
480
00:36:34.635 --> 00:36:38.895
Yeah. And I was thinking I was thinking shaving the shaving the fan blades down.
481
00:36:39.355 --> 00:36:42.990
Yeah. I tried that. I didn't do very good. It didn't
482
00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:49.710
work? Well, I just plugged it into a a drill press and for the wood chisel, tried it and so
483
00:36:50.525 --> 00:37:03.100
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. I was I was thinking rather than the No. But like I said, I'm gonna see about actually getting an STL file and having a fan blade designed from ground up specifically for oil,
484
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:05.420
then it would actually put a
485
00:37:05.975 --> 00:37:06.935
reasonable RPM back.
486
00:37:08.855 --> 00:37:09.655
I know we had that,
487
00:37:10.215 --> 00:37:14.635
graphic up a little bit ago showing the the s seventeen that I super overclocked.
488
00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:23.530
But even in brain yeah. Here we go. So even so this is this is the s 17 that I over or s 17 plus, excuse me.
489
00:37:23.875 --> 00:37:29.415
So this is a 76 t machine. So normally, the cards would run at 24
490
00:37:29.795 --> 00:37:30.295
terahash,
491
00:37:31.130 --> 00:37:32.270
or it's you 25,
492
00:37:33.050 --> 00:37:34.510
like, 0.3, I suppose.
493
00:37:35.450 --> 00:37:38.510
And the power limit stock is about 3,000.
494
00:37:40.025 --> 00:37:42.205
And the recommended for brains is
495
00:37:42.505 --> 00:37:43.005
2.728.
496
00:37:45.945 --> 00:37:48.960
So, yeah. And this is with one card. So we can see,
497
00:37:50.220 --> 00:37:50.720
it's
498
00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:51.599
nearly
499
00:37:52.300 --> 00:37:53.920
double the output.
500
00:37:55.405 --> 00:37:58.224
But we have a a fan speed of a 100%, but I'm getting
501
00:37:58.605 --> 00:38:00.224
nothing reported on RPM,
502
00:38:00.605 --> 00:38:06.130
because it's actually below 300 RPM, and that's the lowest I've ever seen it register,
503
00:38:06.990 --> 00:38:09.650
in brains is and and still have an RPM.
504
00:38:10.750 --> 00:38:14.295
And I don't know. This would be a great question for Young, is if,
505
00:38:16.135 --> 00:38:17.195
that's a
506
00:38:18.055 --> 00:38:20.790
hardware thing that the hardware sensor can't
507
00:38:21.350 --> 00:38:26.410
detect below that, or if that's more of a brain thing that just below 300, it ignores it.
508
00:38:29.795 --> 00:38:31.075
I will check with,
509
00:38:31.475 --> 00:38:44.290
our FPGA developer. I think there is some filter on on that, but I I don't know from top of my head really what the what the lowest limit is. I would expect that 300 RPM and below should be measurable.
510
00:38:45.635 --> 00:38:48.695
Okay. Yeah. So I'll check. It's an interesting question.
511
00:38:49.474 --> 00:38:56.530
But that's not you would in in air, if you had anything lower than that, you'll be not moving in the air, and it'd be terrible. But
512
00:38:56.910 --> 00:38:57.410
in
513
00:38:58.030 --> 00:38:59.329
in oil, it's perfect.
514
00:39:00.030 --> 00:39:00.770
You're running
515
00:39:01.390 --> 00:39:02.555
horizontal, though. Right?
516
00:39:03.595 --> 00:39:07.855
So in with bands, it's running just like you would run it in air
517
00:39:08.155 --> 00:39:09.295
for the position.
518
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:14.480
Without fans, it turns 90 degrees and it's facing upward instead
519
00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:25.365
of instead of laying flat. Yeah. Because see okay. Okay. That was the difference. That's what I was wondering because we're actually forcing the fluid through the machines. So I think the fans may actually inhibit
520
00:39:25.730 --> 00:39:26.230
the
521
00:39:26.930 --> 00:39:30.230
flow the flow of the dielectric through through the machine
522
00:39:30.530 --> 00:39:31.030
because
523
00:39:31.650 --> 00:39:33.030
we're pushing it through.
524
00:39:35.635 --> 00:39:47.030
But probably not faster than the fans would move it. Yeah. That's a good point. Good point. Isn't isn't that twofold though? Because you have the fans on, and and that's an extra power draw that you could direct towards
525
00:39:48.210 --> 00:39:48.870
the miners,
526
00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:52.115
but then you're improving your airflow. I guess, do you have any comments on that
527
00:39:53.075 --> 00:39:55.175
or the liquid flow? Sorry. Yeah.
528
00:39:56.115 --> 00:39:59.494
Yeah. You're you're saving by unplugging the fans.
529
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:07.420
But see what what what coin heat is doing too is it's slowing the machine itself is slowing the fan down so much that he's saving
530
00:40:08.595 --> 00:40:11.335
a percentage of the electric usage that he has.
531
00:40:12.035 --> 00:40:16.454
By us removing our fans, it saves somewhere between 10 15%
532
00:40:16.914 --> 00:40:18.220
of electric usage.
533
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.780
And so, you know, I don't know if you can pull the stereo with the he's not getting these the same gain.
534
00:40:25.265 --> 00:40:30.245
Yeah. The, the the upper left tank that has 5 miners, that one is spam free.
535
00:40:31.025 --> 00:40:32.645
But so my my
536
00:40:33.070 --> 00:40:34.050
thinking in this,
537
00:40:34.430 --> 00:40:36.050
so if you have 4 fans
538
00:40:36.510 --> 00:40:37.250
per miner,
539
00:40:37.710 --> 00:40:39.970
and you have a fan that's specifically
540
00:40:40.270 --> 00:40:41.490
made for oil,
541
00:40:41.865 --> 00:40:45.645
so it can move a good amount of oil and it will actually,
542
00:40:46.265 --> 00:40:49.085
you know, do a decent job, you would not need
543
00:40:49.625 --> 00:40:50.365
a pump.
544
00:40:51.390 --> 00:40:53.970
So then you get back all the energy that you had
545
00:40:54.270 --> 00:41:00.290
pushing a pump because I mean, I don't know. The pumps I have, they're like a couple of amps at a 110 volt,
546
00:41:00.885 --> 00:41:02.905
and that's not trivial amount of power.
547
00:41:05.605 --> 00:41:11.010
And if you have if you have 5 byers in the tank, let's just say, you have 4 fans out in there per,
548
00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:18.435
the probability of all of those fans completely failing at the same time is much less than one pump failing for a whole tank.
549
00:41:24.275 --> 00:41:27.415
I'd love to hear I mean, we could go and talk about immersion
550
00:41:28.010 --> 00:41:29.630
forever, but I'd love to hear,
551
00:41:30.410 --> 00:41:33.310
from Brett and Marty, like, what kind of things you guys are
552
00:41:33.850 --> 00:41:34.670
are seeing,
553
00:41:34.970 --> 00:41:42.585
you know, in the different regions that you're mining in because you you you're getting cold temperatures. You're getting very hot temperatures, and I'm sure you're having to optimize,
554
00:41:44.485 --> 00:41:46.425
different features, underclocking, overclocking,
555
00:41:47.010 --> 00:41:52.390
and, you know, maybe your your air cooling versus having AC units or whatever.
556
00:41:52.930 --> 00:41:56.165
I guess, what what issues are you having on, like,
557
00:41:56.545 --> 00:41:58.965
a, like, a a big scale mining operation?
558
00:41:59.825 --> 00:42:02.885
And how are how are you solving those, or what limitations are you finding?
559
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:05.460
So
560
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:06.820
we're predominantly,
561
00:42:07.680 --> 00:42:08.740
in North Dakota
562
00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:13.045
and in the Bakken here in the United States. Because of the climate.
563
00:42:14.225 --> 00:42:17.205
Our engineers have just decided this is more conducive to run
564
00:42:17.665 --> 00:42:24.690
air cooled up in in those regions compared to somewhere like West Texas or or another hot region, maybe the Haynesville shale
565
00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:26.210
down in Louisiana.
566
00:42:27.630 --> 00:42:29.330
And I actually find this
567
00:42:30.305 --> 00:42:33.365
discussion about the fans very fascinating because we are designing
568
00:42:33.825 --> 00:42:40.330
an immersion cooling system at Great America Mining, and I think it's interesting for us. We have different parameters because we're very space constrained,
569
00:42:40.790 --> 00:42:43.850
since we're building these in in shipping containers. And,
570
00:42:45.105 --> 00:42:46.565
so that's, like, the number one
571
00:42:46.865 --> 00:42:47.365
sort
572
00:42:48.065 --> 00:42:51.765
of boundary and variable restriction, whatever you wanna call it, design
573
00:42:52.600 --> 00:42:53.100
parameter,
574
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:56.380
that that really comes into play with us because
575
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.380
considering how much the coolant,
576
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:05.255
cost, you have to you weigh the trade offs of the initial capital outlay and the amount of hash rate that container's
577
00:43:06.035 --> 00:43:11.080
gonna produce per square foot. And so the fans discussion is something that I I notice our engineers talk
578
00:43:13.080 --> 00:43:17.900
about a lot. Like, do we take off the fans, get more space? Is there a benefit of having them on? So these are when it comes to immersion specifically,
579
00:43:18.555 --> 00:43:24.175
these are some of the main types of things that we have to think about at Great American Mining with our container model,
580
00:43:24.635 --> 00:43:28.640
or the space constraints. And it's fascinating to hear you guys talk through all this.
581
00:43:30.540 --> 00:43:36.080
You guys use primarily WhatsMiners. Right? So you're you're really at the mercy of
582
00:43:36.445 --> 00:43:37.665
of the firmware.
583
00:43:38.125 --> 00:43:41.585
I I guess I I'm just curious, obviously, because I'm I'm working
584
00:43:42.125 --> 00:43:48.830
for a firmware company. So I'm I'm curious how you guys work around some of the issues that you're seeing there for immersion or air cooled.
585
00:43:50.650 --> 00:43:51.230
I mean,
586
00:43:52.295 --> 00:43:52.795
we,
587
00:43:54.535 --> 00:43:56.075
I mean, we use a stock firmware,
588
00:43:56.695 --> 00:43:58.715
you know, because we have to. Obviously, we're talking
589
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:03.780
closely with the brains team and others working on firmware. So we're we're getting our hands on and testing.
590
00:44:04.640 --> 00:44:05.220
I mean,
591
00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:09.855
what I could say about What's Matters, they've been beast for us. We haven't really had a problem,
592
00:44:10.635 --> 00:44:13.615
outside of not being able to to gain efficiencies and
593
00:44:13.994 --> 00:44:19.480
and stretch our hash about a bit more, via firmware up or different types of firmware.
594
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:23.000
With that being said, the machines themselves are
595
00:44:23.385 --> 00:44:27.325
are very durable from our experience. We've been using them since they,
596
00:44:28.105 --> 00:44:32.444
launched the m twenties, and and we've had m twenties in the field for
597
00:44:32.750 --> 00:44:34.210
almost 3 years now.
598
00:44:35.470 --> 00:44:44.454
I think out of one container that we first launched at a 180, I think we've only ever had one full failure in the field in these rough conditions in North Dakota.
599
00:44:44.994 --> 00:44:45.494
Yeah.
600
00:44:46.650 --> 00:44:47.150
And
601
00:44:47.770 --> 00:44:51.230
I have to agree. Like, we don't run a lot of Watts Miners,
602
00:44:51.770 --> 00:44:55.370
but the Watts Miners that we do run, I've had a very, very good experience with.
603
00:44:55.770 --> 00:44:59.214
Again, like, same thing that Marty was saying. They can't get,
604
00:44:59.994 --> 00:45:03.535
like, aftermarket firmware. We can't get any third party stuff on there.
605
00:45:04.050 --> 00:45:08.310
So we're basically waiting on brains OS as well. We would love to go to Watts Miners.
606
00:45:08.930 --> 00:45:10.790
The thing about Watts Miners that
607
00:45:11.224 --> 00:45:12.685
I think is a a main,
608
00:45:13.224 --> 00:45:15.964
a main selling point on them is with,
609
00:45:16.825 --> 00:45:17.645
any Bitmain
610
00:45:17.945 --> 00:45:18.445
machine,
611
00:45:19.150 --> 00:45:19.810
their boards
612
00:45:20.110 --> 00:45:20.610
have,
613
00:45:21.230 --> 00:45:30.735
one heat sink per chip. So you have a bunch of these heat sinks dotted all over the board and there's space between them. Like, there's areas where stuff can get in there.
614
00:45:31.195 --> 00:45:34.815
One of the things that I saw when taking apart Watts Miners is they have
615
00:45:35.390 --> 00:45:41.490
solid heat sinks. It's 1 piece. It covers the entire board, and they just slap on both sides of this board.
616
00:45:42.145 --> 00:45:47.444
And so that helps to keep a lot of things out. Like, we we actually had an instance because we're up in Canada,
617
00:45:48.464 --> 00:45:49.765
of of some snow
618
00:45:50.180 --> 00:45:54.840
getting in the with these Wasp Miners. I think we only had, like, one board damaged, and
619
00:45:55.380 --> 00:46:04.965
it it was crazy that these things survived the snow. Like, obviously, the power supply failed because they're not quite as secure, but the boards are amazing. The board design on Watts Minor is excellent.
620
00:46:05.825 --> 00:46:08.005
That being said, we mostly run s nines,
621
00:46:08.970 --> 00:46:17.230
mostly because of brains OS. Again, like, I've talked about this. This is a huge thing for us because brains OS is so useful for what we're doing.
622
00:46:17.765 --> 00:46:26.849
Marty has, I think, a lot bigger scale than we do. Like, it's it's easier for them to scale. They have a lot more gas access than we do. But we're trying to scale,
623
00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:29.490
sort of like to to
624
00:46:29.869 --> 00:46:31.329
to more more people,
625
00:46:32.029 --> 00:46:32.849
more decentralization
626
00:46:33.309 --> 00:46:44.490
on a smaller scale. So we're trying to put out a lot of small things whereas they're trying to put out a few big things. And the toughest part about putting out a few small things is we have to be able to regulate how much
627
00:46:46.250 --> 00:46:48.110
how much power they're actually using.
628
00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:50.430
And, I talked about this earlier.
629
00:46:51.050 --> 00:46:58.884
Having brains OS and the ability to go into a unit and say, I need to drop this by 50 watts on 64 miners for a total of,
630
00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:00.400
like, 3,200
631
00:47:00.859 --> 00:47:05.920
watts. Like, I need to drop this 3,200 watts. It's super, super nice to be able to do that.
632
00:47:07.215 --> 00:47:09.715
You were saying earlier that you can do a lot of that remotely.
633
00:47:10.095 --> 00:47:12.755
Right? You so you have access to a lot of your remote.
634
00:47:13.615 --> 00:47:16.015
Yep. So with with all of our,
635
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.220
our units, we have ways to access them
636
00:47:19.680 --> 00:47:24.260
remotely. I can I can remotely access the network that is inside of each of our units?
637
00:47:24.575 --> 00:47:34.049
And so if somebody says, hey. We're having gas issues today. Like, we need you to bring it down. I can just bring it down. Or if somebody says, hey. I want this directed somewhere else. We can change
638
00:47:34.750 --> 00:47:41.809
that. Or, like, there's there's lots of different things we can do remotely, and there's so many configurations options using brains OS that we can do
639
00:47:42.115 --> 00:47:45.415
remotely either through SSH and doing it through a terminal
640
00:47:45.875 --> 00:47:49.095
or actually even through the, the web interface.
641
00:47:50.290 --> 00:47:52.230
Dude, you're an absolute wizard.
642
00:47:53.730 --> 00:48:00.475
Like, I have I have to be on I have to be on on-site if if I want to access
643
00:48:01.095 --> 00:48:02.315
a machine itself.
644
00:48:03.095 --> 00:48:09.080
And I I kinda did that for security reasons, but I'm gonna be honest, I did that more for
645
00:48:09.380 --> 00:48:10.120
I'm incompetent
646
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:13.320
to be able to do what you just explained right
647
00:48:13.700 --> 00:48:14.760
there. It was amazing.
648
00:48:15.385 --> 00:48:23.645
Well, I have to agree with you. It's maybe not quite as secure. That's kind of one of the main issues that we have with it is it's not as secure.
649
00:48:24.110 --> 00:48:35.755
But, again, like, if you set up a login and all that stuff properly, you use secure passwords, you should be fine. I'm always happy to, like, help you out if you want to. Like, feel free to give me a PM. You have my information.
650
00:48:36.695 --> 00:48:37.195
Yeah.
651
00:48:37.815 --> 00:48:42.860
That that's that's kinda my background. So I've been in IT for 25 years, and I set up networks
652
00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:46.160
and data centers and all that sort of stuff. So
653
00:48:47.100 --> 00:48:56.225
that's almost not even relevant to to minors exactly, because I mean, you could have a a data center of, you know, regular servers and getting that remote access is
654
00:48:56.605 --> 00:49:01.240
is, you know, or once you get into the site, which would, you know, in in your case, just be a
655
00:49:01.720 --> 00:49:10.865
a shipping container or a hash out or whatever it is, you get into that and you can get into the web interface of the other miners, and it's not it's not too bad.
656
00:49:11.744 --> 00:49:13.925
Or you can just open up Telnet to the whole world.
657
00:49:15.585 --> 00:49:17.605
Open up Telnet to the whole world. Good idea.
658
00:49:18.305 --> 00:49:24.970
Yeah. I mean, with the operations, if you wanna scale, you're gonna have to figure out how to control these stuff this stuff remotely.
659
00:49:26.405 --> 00:49:31.385
If you're, you know, you're trying to do this at any scale. And it is crazy the
660
00:49:32.005 --> 00:49:34.425
how simple you can make the stack if need be.
661
00:49:35.230 --> 00:49:37.970
If you're especially if you're sorry. My son's in the back.
662
00:49:38.829 --> 00:49:43.890
Especially if you're, like, designing your own power distribution units, you have control over that. And
663
00:49:44.405 --> 00:49:45.464
with What's Miners
664
00:49:46.165 --> 00:49:47.785
specifically, like, we've been able to really
665
00:49:48.325 --> 00:49:48.825
granularly,
666
00:49:49.765 --> 00:49:55.319
control them remotely just because of the the API that they have. And you can build on that pretty robustly.
667
00:49:59.140 --> 00:50:02.900
This is this is another thing that I've actually really enjoyed with brains OS,
668
00:50:03.685 --> 00:50:04.505
speaking of
669
00:50:04.805 --> 00:50:05.125
of,
670
00:50:05.605 --> 00:50:06.744
API and stuff.
671
00:50:08.485 --> 00:50:18.090
With with brains OS, I found it really, really easy, like and there's a lot of documentation on this. I've actually found that it it's easier to read the brains west API documentation than CGminer.
672
00:50:19.430 --> 00:50:24.275
And so for those of you who don't know what an API is, in in in this context,
673
00:50:24.734 --> 00:50:30.035
an API is an application programming interface. It's something coders use to kinda access
674
00:50:31.300 --> 00:50:33.560
data and stuff about different systems.
675
00:50:34.180 --> 00:50:34.920
And so,
676
00:50:36.100 --> 00:50:40.795
in the case of brains OS, the Bossminer API, because Bossminer is their back end,
677
00:50:41.415 --> 00:50:50.180
can be used to get all sorts of data, hash rate data, fan data, heat data, pool data, you can change pool information, all sorts of stuff with that.
678
00:50:50.640 --> 00:50:51.380
And so
679
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:53.860
you can create automated systems
680
00:50:54.525 --> 00:50:58.365
that will legitimately change anything about your miner based on,
681
00:50:58.925 --> 00:51:01.645
different different things. And you could you could run a Raspberry Pi,
682
00:51:02.520 --> 00:51:14.365
just on the network with these miners and just ping them every once in a while, find the hash rate, find the temperature, whatever. And if you have to drop hash rate, like change tuning, drop temperature, increase fan speed, something like that,
683
00:51:14.744 --> 00:51:15.944
that's where you can,
684
00:51:16.665 --> 00:51:21.750
that's where you can use the API to do that. And so that's something that's really useful as well.
685
00:51:22.610 --> 00:51:27.670
Yeah. I'm I'm doing exactly that. I specifically have Raspberry Pi, so I got one.
686
00:51:28.425 --> 00:51:29.805
It's in the video too, but,
687
00:51:31.305 --> 00:51:32.205
it has temperatures,
688
00:51:32.745 --> 00:51:36.205
temperature probes for all the tanks, but then it also pulls,
689
00:51:37.030 --> 00:51:41.210
all the miners themselves and pulls that API information back.
690
00:51:41.910 --> 00:51:49.185
And then that brings that back into 2 TVs in my room that I can watch within 30 seconds. I know if anything's gone wrong with it.
691
00:51:49.724 --> 00:51:53.560
Let's see if I'll see if I can find the the photo of the TVs, but,
692
00:51:54.020 --> 00:51:55.560
in the video, it's just a little
693
00:51:56.100 --> 00:51:58.920
stupid yellow box, so that part's not very interesting.
694
00:51:59.685 --> 00:52:04.505
But, yeah, the the the API results from brains is awesome. And then
695
00:52:05.045 --> 00:52:10.810
further, you can you can do more where you would have that talk back and then like, oh, the tank is too hot.
696
00:52:11.910 --> 00:52:17.530
You know, the oil temperature is too hot, so let's set these miners and this tank back down more.
697
00:52:18.725 --> 00:52:24.265
Yep. And that's what's awesome. Actually, it's funny, funny story. I'm designing a little system
698
00:52:24.725 --> 00:52:25.945
for our test bench.
699
00:52:26.930 --> 00:52:27.750
And so,
700
00:52:28.130 --> 00:52:42.744
at Upstream, we try to test every single s nine that comes through, get brains on it, get it all set up, and prepared to go in the unit. And so we have to, like, run thousands of s nines through our shop, and they all have to be tested and installed and set up.
701
00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:54.345
And so I'm actually designing a little system because we we just upgraded to kind of a new area with with more room. We used to do 4 at a time. We're moving up to something like 24 or 32 at a time.
702
00:52:55.045 --> 00:53:13.255
And so I'm designing a system that uses the API to get information on 24 or so miners at a time, and then we can just say, hey. This miner works. Pull it off. Put it on the pallet. Get a new one. This miner works. Pull it off. Pallet, get a new one, and just kinda keep the keep the system going. Make it as fast and easy as possible.
703
00:53:15.235 --> 00:53:15.735
K.
704
00:53:16.515 --> 00:53:17.015
So,
705
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:23.100
maybe the brains guys can answer this. It was something we were talking about a little bit before we went live.
706
00:53:26.095 --> 00:53:30.115
I'm curious about when you when you shut off a minor,
707
00:53:31.910 --> 00:53:34.090
like, the fans just stop. Right?
708
00:53:34.550 --> 00:53:38.090
Is the is the the heat that's already built up
709
00:53:38.445 --> 00:53:41.425
in the minor going to be an issue for that? Like
710
00:53:42.445 --> 00:53:47.425
and then I guess I guess the reason why I was kinda directing it at the brains guys was because
711
00:53:49.170 --> 00:53:50.470
wouldn't it be advantageous
712
00:53:50.770 --> 00:53:53.350
to, like, keep the fans running for a little bit
713
00:53:53.890 --> 00:53:59.645
when you shut the minor off? I don't know if I'm taking us totally off track here. It was just something that I just was thinking about again.
714
00:54:01.944 --> 00:54:03.805
I guess, yeah, on it, do you wanna talk about
715
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:06.160
the the preheat stuff and everything?
716
00:54:07.020 --> 00:54:08.800
I will try to speak to that.
717
00:54:10.060 --> 00:54:12.375
Well, the preheat part is definitely
718
00:54:12.835 --> 00:54:15.255
important part of the process to get the machine,
719
00:54:17.075 --> 00:54:18.934
to run at some nominal
720
00:54:19.315 --> 00:54:21.255
speed or performance level.
721
00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:28.735
But I think you hit the nail by explaining, like, what what happens if you cut the power. Right?
722
00:54:29.055 --> 00:54:30.755
Like, shutting down the machine,
723
00:54:31.775 --> 00:54:32.275
gracefully,
724
00:54:32.975 --> 00:54:34.275
currently, what happens
725
00:54:34.735 --> 00:54:35.235
with
726
00:54:36.670 --> 00:54:38.290
with the with the current firmware,
727
00:54:38.830 --> 00:54:40.270
if you if you have,
728
00:54:40.910 --> 00:54:42.770
fan control enabled still.
729
00:54:43.150 --> 00:54:48.964
So if you shut down the machine, so that means it's, let's say, suspended. We have the spend receive feature, whatever.
730
00:54:49.265 --> 00:54:51.605
Anyhow, like, stopping those miners also.
731
00:54:51.905 --> 00:55:00.080
Well, it's, approach. Then we have a monitor that actually keeps the fans running, which some people find annoying. But at the same time, especially for the,
732
00:55:00.540 --> 00:55:01.040
X17
733
00:55:01.420 --> 00:55:03.984
family, this was critical because
734
00:55:04.444 --> 00:55:04.765
if,
735
00:55:05.565 --> 00:55:10.145
if you, like, cut off power and the and and the machine, like, stops
736
00:55:10.550 --> 00:55:13.130
running all of a sudden. The problem is that,
737
00:55:13.430 --> 00:55:15.690
because of the bad soldering on the PCBs,
738
00:55:16.950 --> 00:55:23.835
or let's say not bad soldering, but lower quality soldering that works well in immersion but not in air cooled environments,
739
00:55:25.255 --> 00:55:30.910
you have to realize that, you know, the way the heat is taken away from from the chips is
740
00:55:31.210 --> 00:55:31.710
by
741
00:55:32.650 --> 00:55:41.994
conducting the heat through the heat sinks. Right? And it works by the fact that you have a certain temperature gradient. So so the end of the heat sink has a different temperature than the chip.
742
00:55:42.315 --> 00:55:44.974
If the fan stop all of a sudden and you,
743
00:55:46.060 --> 00:55:46.560
like,
744
00:55:46.940 --> 00:55:48.880
don't generate any more power,
745
00:55:49.820 --> 00:55:55.120
by the fact that the chips are not hashing anymore, you still have a short moment of time
746
00:55:55.505 --> 00:55:58.085
where, this heat conduction process
747
00:55:58.545 --> 00:56:01.125
slows down because the the gradient just
748
00:56:01.664 --> 00:56:06.890
breaks down. There's no airflow anymore, And that could damage the PCB, but not for,
749
00:56:07.910 --> 00:56:14.685
for the new gen, for the x nineteens, nor for the s nines because they have different soldering technology. And they are much more,
750
00:56:15.465 --> 00:56:17.725
resilient to to things like this.
751
00:56:18.265 --> 00:56:26.170
So that would be for the power cutoff, and that's nothing that firmware can do because it has no power. But in terms of graceful shutdown, it's certainly a good idea,
752
00:56:26.710 --> 00:56:32.205
to have a feature like this that keeps the fence running for certain time. I kind of think about this,
753
00:56:32.845 --> 00:56:34.225
sometimes when you have turbocharged
754
00:56:34.525 --> 00:56:35.025
vehicles,
755
00:56:35.485 --> 00:56:36.305
when you,
756
00:56:36.685 --> 00:56:38.305
you know, hit the gas and,
757
00:56:39.085 --> 00:56:45.400
run the engine really hard on the highway when you park at in front of your house. Some of the manufacturers
758
00:56:45.700 --> 00:56:47.460
tell you you should keep your,
759
00:56:47.859 --> 00:56:51.595
engine running for a little bit until the blades of the turbocharger
760
00:56:52.055 --> 00:56:58.235
cool down a bit. Because if you stop it, all of a sudden, they could, like, twist or whatever by the cooling process.
761
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:01.420
So that's that's how I try to think about the this,
762
00:57:02.040 --> 00:57:04.700
physical process that could happen to the PCBs
763
00:57:05.560 --> 00:57:07.980
for the for the x 17 yuan.
764
00:57:08.359 --> 00:57:10.825
And that's actually what made me think about it is because,
765
00:57:11.145 --> 00:57:11.625
unlike
766
00:57:11.945 --> 00:57:16.285
so the cars you're talking about, it's actually the the bearings on the turbocharger
767
00:57:16.825 --> 00:57:17.965
heat up so much.
768
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:23.140
And I think they've they've mainly we're not talk we're not here to talk about cars, but
769
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:28.100
they mainly remedied that be because they have oil cooled bearings now.
770
00:57:28.405 --> 00:57:33.865
So that saves it from that. But they it was the same concept, basically. That's what I was going for.
771
00:57:34.405 --> 00:57:39.590
Yeah. You need to keep the oil running for a little bit more before you Yeah. The whole process. Otherwise,
772
00:57:39.970 --> 00:57:49.255
the end the the bearings have no easy way to to okay. Yeah. Yeah. And they don't cool down, and they've swelled up from the or they will swell up from the heat, and it'll just seize it up. And then
773
00:57:49.795 --> 00:57:51.735
I mean, when you're talking about
774
00:57:52.490 --> 00:57:54.109
running a 100 and 135,
775
00:57:54.650 --> 00:57:55.869
140 degrees
776
00:57:57.530 --> 00:57:58.589
Fahrenheit chips,
777
00:57:59.055 --> 00:58:01.715
like, that needs some that needs some cool down time.
778
00:58:03.855 --> 00:58:05.295
There's a question from,
779
00:58:05.695 --> 00:58:07.475
Hornet about this,
780
00:58:08.010 --> 00:58:10.970
what's minor firmware. I guess that's that kind of covers this,
781
00:58:11.370 --> 00:58:14.190
this whole topic because, yes, this feature
782
00:58:14.650 --> 00:58:21.775
takes care of it if you if you have fence running while you suspend hashing. I think this is the best that you can do for the PCBs.
783
00:58:23.355 --> 00:58:24.955
Yeah. So the question was about,
784
00:58:25.835 --> 00:58:26.335
if,
785
00:58:27.150 --> 00:58:34.530
yeah, lots of minor firmware letting you suspend hashing while your fans continue. Same thing we're talking about now just with lots of minor firmware. It it does that?
786
00:58:36.224 --> 00:58:37.204
That sounds like
787
00:58:38.065 --> 00:58:46.710
it. The other question was if if if that would not help the heat dissipation, and the answer is yes. That definitely helps. It definitely would help. I don't I don't
788
00:58:47.570 --> 00:58:50.870
But is that an actual feature of Whatsmet or not? I've never seen that.
789
00:58:51.650 --> 00:58:55.830
It's okay. I'm not familiar with, those details in the stock firmware.
790
00:58:56.434 --> 00:58:57.974
Yeah. Neither am I. And
791
00:58:58.434 --> 00:59:07.550
this is one of the tough things about stock firmware for maybe some of us is maybe we don't have as much experience running stock firmware as we do this aftermarket stuff that's so much better.
792
00:59:08.170 --> 00:59:10.305
He says it's in there. The ads in there.
793
00:59:11.265 --> 00:59:15.605
By the way, an interesting question. If, there's support for Prometheus,
794
00:59:16.944 --> 00:59:20.085
I don't know if you guys know this technology. Prometheus is a standard,
795
00:59:21.250 --> 00:59:21.750
protocol
796
00:59:22.370 --> 00:59:25.350
and a software package that scrapes data from,
797
00:59:26.050 --> 00:59:28.310
server software, basically, taking metrics.
798
00:59:28.875 --> 00:59:30.495
And maybe the question is,
799
00:59:31.195 --> 00:59:32.895
if, support for Prometheus
800
00:59:33.435 --> 00:59:37.130
in inside of Brace OS or any other firmware would be,
801
00:59:38.090 --> 00:59:38.910
an interesting
802
00:59:39.930 --> 00:59:41.230
thing. So
803
00:59:41.530 --> 00:59:43.070
what are your thoughts on this?
804
00:59:44.955 --> 00:59:47.295
Because we use it internally a lot, I would
805
00:59:47.675 --> 00:59:59.875
say. Yeah. I've never touched it, but it, like, if it's something that's just scraping data, you you you said from, like, the API, it would probably scrape data from or from, like, web? Or There's a there's a there's the the way Prometheus
806
01:00:00.175 --> 01:00:01.635
works is that there's a standard,
807
01:00:03.775 --> 01:00:06.755
let's say, API or format, how the data,
808
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:11.080
is to be exported by the software that's being scraped.
809
01:00:13.220 --> 01:00:13.880
And then
810
01:00:14.260 --> 01:00:14.840
the Prometheus
811
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:17.845
itself then goes regular to this.
812
01:00:18.225 --> 01:00:20.085
It's a web, basically, HTTP
813
01:00:20.385 --> 01:00:22.865
technology. It just goes to the website of,
814
01:00:23.425 --> 01:00:26.900
with the metrics. It's a simple text file. It can have a binary
815
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:30.640
form. And then, you know, it it downloads it every
816
01:00:31.255 --> 01:00:35.515
I don't know. Scraping by one second, 10 seconds, depends on your data,
817
01:00:36.134 --> 01:00:50.005
plan and so on, whatever whatever you wanna configure. But the whole point is that that the machine itself doesn't have to be, like, actively pushing any telemetry data anywhere. It just publishes them or whoever wants, sort of like looking at the API.
818
01:00:50.305 --> 01:00:51.125
This is just
819
01:00:51.585 --> 01:00:56.565
another form. But the the benefit is that you don't have to develop the whole
820
01:00:56.980 --> 01:00:57.880
dashboard technology,
821
01:00:58.420 --> 01:01:01.160
like time series processing. All the data,
822
01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:02.280
is
823
01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:07.005
included in in Prometheus, and then you use Grafana to do nice charts.
824
01:01:07.625 --> 01:01:12.605
Okay. So the idea would be something like what me or Coin Heated designed
825
01:01:12.985 --> 01:01:17.940
with using the BossMiner API, but the idea is it would be something a little bit more for,
826
01:01:18.720 --> 01:01:26.495
some Let's say let's say yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Let's can you imagine that that that all the data or all the interesting data that you want to be plotted,
827
01:01:26.955 --> 01:01:29.055
that are currently kind of, like, sprinkled
828
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:34.660
in the CGminer API. Because when we were developing this, we were kind of forced to keep it at least
829
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:35.460
partially
830
01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:39.795
backwards compatible or make it compatible with what the original
831
01:01:40.415 --> 01:01:40.915
pristine
832
01:01:41.215 --> 01:01:41.715
CGminer,
833
01:01:42.655 --> 01:01:45.075
source published because what the manufacturers,
834
01:01:45.935 --> 01:01:49.619
turned it into was very far from the original
835
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:52.079
design of,
836
01:01:52.799 --> 01:01:54.660
c CK, right, of Konkolybaz.
837
01:01:55.205 --> 01:01:55.705
He,
838
01:01:56.885 --> 01:02:01.945
I mean, he had some ideas what should be exported, and it was really designed around the GPUs.
839
01:02:02.460 --> 01:02:19.470
And then the manufacturers basically took the sources and twisted it into something. And if if they liked a certain section of the API, they just glued in some random data without any really good structure. So you can think about it if we and actually, it's not that much work if we transform
840
01:02:20.170 --> 01:02:21.789
this data that is exported,
841
01:02:22.490 --> 01:02:36.295
in the in the CGminer API into whatever is understood by Prometheus scraper, and then you just deploy your Prometheus scraper in your facility or at home, whatever, and then you get the charts pretty much for free.
842
01:02:36.640 --> 01:02:44.420
Well, is there an option that you could maybe just put it on a different port? So instead of Oh, yeah. I mean for the API Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure. That that could be,
843
01:02:44.945 --> 01:02:46.805
that that could be an alternative,
844
01:02:47.665 --> 01:02:48.405
an alternative,
845
01:02:49.425 --> 01:02:49.925
thing.
846
01:02:50.225 --> 01:02:53.105
In fact, a feature that we're working on is that,
847
01:02:54.090 --> 01:02:54.590
for
848
01:02:54.890 --> 01:02:55.390
some
849
01:02:55.930 --> 01:02:56.430
customers
850
01:02:57.690 --> 01:02:59.950
who have issues with, let's say, connectivity,
851
01:03:00.490 --> 01:03:01.550
it would be interesting
852
01:03:02.215 --> 01:03:04.795
to give them a tooling that would very reliably,
853
01:03:05.975 --> 01:03:06.475
scrape,
854
01:03:07.335 --> 01:03:07.995
the data,
855
01:03:08.455 --> 01:03:10.475
how the stratum client behaves
856
01:03:10.780 --> 01:03:12.160
that would allow debugging,
857
01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:13.440
like, their
858
01:03:13.740 --> 01:03:18.240
particular setup. Is that inside the new brains OS manager that you guys are developing?
859
01:03:19.715 --> 01:03:30.930
No. It's not in not it's not in there because when once if you have problems with the connectivity, this this thing is not going to help you. You basically have to run this like a like a probing software on on your end
860
01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:32.030
with this,
861
01:03:32.990 --> 01:03:33.490
connectivity,
862
01:03:35.924 --> 01:03:36.424
unreliability.
863
01:03:37.605 --> 01:03:39.704
And once you scrape the data locally,
864
01:03:40.244 --> 01:03:43.944
you can send it to us, and then we can have a look and see how the client
865
01:03:44.244 --> 01:03:49.450
client was was behaving. But theoretically, this can be, like, displayed on on on client. And,
866
01:03:50.310 --> 01:03:51.450
the problem is that
867
01:03:52.895 --> 01:04:04.910
it is useful for for a couple of miners. So when you're, like, really looking in detailed data for for for a couple of miners, But when you want to do, like, thousands and thousands of miners, then it becomes
868
01:04:05.369 --> 01:04:06.670
kind of cluttered. So,
869
01:04:07.049 --> 01:04:21.000
more thought needs to be put into how you want to present the data from from every single miner because then you have to do some aggregation and so on. So I can definitely talk to some of that. So, you know, part of my day job is, I manage literally
870
01:04:21.620 --> 01:04:24.120
thousands of workstations and hundreds of servers,
871
01:04:24.660 --> 01:04:25.720
here on the
872
01:04:26.255 --> 01:04:32.614
screen now. We got the 2 TVs, obviously, the slash pool dashboard. And then over on the right is Just a casual
873
01:04:33.454 --> 01:04:33.954
1.09
874
01:04:34.494 --> 01:04:34.994
petahash.
875
01:04:35.900 --> 01:04:37.740
I'm working on it. It's a little low right now.
876
01:04:39.180 --> 01:04:41.440
But, so then on the right is,
877
01:04:41.900 --> 01:04:42.720
I'm pulling
878
01:04:43.615 --> 01:04:46.275
I'm pulling data directly from the API results,
879
01:04:46.655 --> 01:04:51.315
and then I have a script that parses out the information that I really want. And so
880
01:04:52.070 --> 01:04:57.050
in this right hand screen, what I have is there's there's 2 windows. You can see the red and blue,
881
01:04:57.910 --> 01:05:01.885
window and then the the single blue window, or I guess, or
882
01:05:03.005 --> 01:05:03.505
Yeah.
883
01:05:04.125 --> 01:05:06.785
And so the, the red and blue is the chip,
884
01:05:07.570 --> 01:05:09.990
is in red and blue is the board temperatures.
885
01:05:10.530 --> 01:05:12.610
And there's actually three lines. So there's,
886
01:05:13.330 --> 01:05:14.390
for each card.
887
01:05:14.755 --> 01:05:15.575
And then the
888
01:05:15.875 --> 01:05:17.735
single line is the hash rate.
889
01:05:18.355 --> 01:05:19.095
And so
890
01:05:20.515 --> 01:05:24.329
this specifically just has 12, and then it cycles through different,
891
01:05:24.970 --> 01:05:28.349
dashboards. But then over here on the right then is a
892
01:05:28.650 --> 01:05:33.435
overall status circle. And we we can see one thing's in yellow, which means it's kinda getting close to
893
01:05:33.735 --> 01:05:36.555
a a temperature rating threshold that I have.
894
01:05:36.935 --> 01:05:40.555
Then the the ones off to the right is my overall balance, and then those
895
01:05:40.970 --> 01:05:44.910
multiple lines in the kind of bottom right are all the tank temperatures.
896
01:05:45.690 --> 01:05:47.390
So in a in a overview
897
01:05:47.850 --> 01:06:03.090
look, I can see immediately what's going on. And you're definitely right though. I mean, if you have a 1,000 of them, you're not gonna have a 1,000 individual things on here. But you could make a total test, total status screen with a, a a a a donut like that. And you can see, oh, we've got
898
01:06:03.390 --> 01:06:10.905
this many that are in red and a complete fail stage, or we have a spike in temperature on this particular tank or
899
01:06:11.685 --> 01:06:20.720
or, ambient temperature if you're running air cooler or what not. And you can find that in relatively short order and get, email alerts on that and and the whole thing.
900
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:23.599
Usually when I set this up for for
901
01:06:24.175 --> 01:06:28.435
servers and such, I'll know the problem long before the customer knows about it,
902
01:06:29.295 --> 01:06:31.955
because I'll get alerted about it within 30 seconds.
903
01:06:32.630 --> 01:06:35.769
And being able to pull that information from brains directly
904
01:06:36.470 --> 01:06:41.289
is is awesome. And then I also get full history. So I keep history for a year,
905
01:06:42.525 --> 01:06:49.665
and then I can find out, I can go back like, oh, this thing's been running at, you know, let's say 90 c or something like that. If I look back over a 30 day period
906
01:06:49.980 --> 01:07:02.575
and say, oh, on this day, something happened or or whatnot. But I I can go into that historical data, and I think running it directly on a minor, I don't, you know, unless there's a way to
907
01:07:03.115 --> 01:07:10.840
have additional storage. I know you can use like a 16 gig card, but I don't know how much data that that would be is accessible to the miner itself,
908
01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:13.800
or I should say, you know, to brains itself
909
01:07:14.340 --> 01:07:17.240
and and be able to write the historical information.
910
01:07:19.245 --> 01:07:22.065
Quick nerd question. How are you doing your charts?
911
01:07:22.605 --> 01:07:23.585
Yeah. This is PRTG.
912
01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:29.000
So it's it would it would be similar to Prometheus or or,
913
01:07:30.740 --> 01:07:31.240
Grafana.
914
01:07:32.865 --> 01:07:40.645
It's just one of the ones that I use, commercially all the time anyway. And then there's a free version for up to a 100 sensors. So I'm just using that.
915
01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.340
Nice. That's pretty awesome.
916
01:07:45.160 --> 01:07:50.620
Actually, I can talk about so we did another thing that's similar. This is kinda part of what we offer clients.
917
01:07:51.205 --> 01:07:53.705
I've set up a web server actually that does
918
01:07:54.725 --> 01:07:58.985
this for, like, hundreds of units that we have out, and it basically just
919
01:07:59.520 --> 01:08:03.680
keeps historical data. And we pull from the slush pool API instead because it's,
920
01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:11.994
it's actually a little bit, cheaper data wise because we have a very limited amount of data coming from each of our units. Like, we wanna reduce that as much as possible.
921
01:08:12.775 --> 01:08:13.515
Like, maybe
922
01:08:13.815 --> 01:08:16.795
5 to 10 gigabytes a month is kind of what we'd aim for.
923
01:08:17.580 --> 01:08:33.175
But we can pull historical data, and that's really useful for a lot of people because they can go in and see, hey. My unit's at 0. Like, I need to check this out. Or if you have someone out there that you don't want accessing your slash pool account, then you can you just give them that login and they basically get view only access to it.
924
01:08:34.200 --> 01:08:44.515
So one thing that I personally like about PRTG, it's not a show for them. I'm sure other things do it, but you can have what's known as remote probes. And so you could have a, Raspberry Pi,
925
01:08:45.295 --> 01:08:53.460
in a container, let's say. And so that aggregates all the direct data to that and then just sends back a small amount back up to the main node.
926
01:08:57.364 --> 01:09:02.264
That's interesting. We were we were thinking of implementing Raspberry Pis into the unit at one point,
927
01:09:02.565 --> 01:09:09.500
into each unit, but for a different reason, and that was proxying, like, aggregating the data. They actually go to the pool.
928
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:15.275
And so that would basically be taking all the actual, like, hash rate,
929
01:09:16.295 --> 01:09:22.159
sort of, as you would kinda think about it, and sending it through one central location, combining it, and then pushing it to the pool from there.
930
01:09:24.480 --> 01:09:26.579
But I just have never really had a
931
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:30.165
good way to, like, implement something like that alongside it.
932
01:09:30.645 --> 01:09:32.745
So that might be something to look into. It's interesting.
933
01:09:34.485 --> 01:09:35.705
Fun stuff for sure.
934
01:09:36.500 --> 01:09:39.240
Is this I mean, I'm seeing all that you're doing,
935
01:09:39.940 --> 01:09:40.440
Jonathan.
936
01:09:40.900 --> 01:09:47.055
I assume that at some point in the future, like, you know, Bitcoin keeps succeeding, that there will be room to implement
937
01:09:47.675 --> 01:09:50.495
tools such as what you were showing in in
938
01:09:50.795 --> 01:09:51.935
in mining stacks.
939
01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:58.360
Like, right now, you kinda have to make it on your own, and it sounds like Brett's doing similar things, but there are no
940
01:09:59.460 --> 01:10:01.000
accessible tools to
941
01:10:01.635 --> 01:10:02.934
the the everyday person.
942
01:10:03.395 --> 01:10:04.534
Well, what I mean,
943
01:10:04.994 --> 01:10:11.210
I love open source stuff, and that's one of my my favorite things about brains and and the Raspberry Pi specifically.
944
01:10:11.590 --> 01:10:15.050
You know, just the cost of the Pi alone is so small and and
945
01:10:15.430 --> 01:10:16.650
relatively inconsequential.
946
01:10:18.385 --> 01:10:19.765
And being able to,
947
01:10:20.465 --> 01:10:23.925
a goal of mine that I would really love to do is to be able to have
948
01:10:24.465 --> 01:10:24.965
basically
949
01:10:27.750 --> 01:10:31.449
a raspberry pie that could manage, you know, x number of miners,
950
01:10:31.989 --> 01:10:34.810
have that aggregate data coming in from all the miners,
951
01:10:36.635 --> 01:10:40.895
and have the whole thing open source. And you could just release an SD card image,
952
01:10:42.430 --> 01:10:45.250
and like, here you go. We throw it on the network. It finds,
953
01:10:46.910 --> 01:10:50.690
it finds your, miners by IP that you allow it to find,
954
01:10:51.165 --> 01:10:53.505
and then it can start collecting that data.
955
01:10:56.364 --> 01:10:58.465
Yeah. That'd be that'd be very cool.
956
01:10:58.844 --> 01:10:59.344
I,
957
01:11:00.810 --> 01:11:05.310
unless there's other threads to pull on with this one, I'm sure you and Brett could go back and forth for a while.
958
01:11:05.770 --> 01:11:06.590
Yeah. Probably.
959
01:11:07.050 --> 01:11:12.074
Yeah. We should probably shut up. I talk too much. No. No. It's it's super interesting.
960
01:11:13.175 --> 01:11:19.114
Just kind of maybe just something. It's like it highlights just how early we are in this whole industry. Like, building
961
01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:21.219
these monitoring systems alone,
962
01:11:22.080 --> 01:11:24.340
is something that you just have to do from scratch,
963
01:11:24.719 --> 01:11:26.100
if you wanna do it correctly.
964
01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:38.690
And I think it highlights, like, the the canvas that we have in front of us to build a really cool industry all the way down from, like, the hardware to the software stack. And just think about the efficiencies that are gonna be gained from all this practical
965
01:11:39.310 --> 01:11:41.250
software thrown on top of these systems.
966
01:11:41.550 --> 01:11:54.790
Yeah. I mean, what what I love about the pie is that, you know, there's all kinds of releases for it. Like, you know, there's the, you know, RaspiBlitz, which is for the full node. Just download the whole thing. It sets everything up for you and off you go.
967
01:11:55.430 --> 01:12:01.770
And being able to have something like that that would directly integrate within brains and and pull that information,
968
01:12:02.785 --> 01:12:05.285
and feed stuff back such as minor control.
969
01:12:07.025 --> 01:12:12.550
And then if you took it even a step further and doing, immersion, and then it would actually be able to know,
970
01:12:13.250 --> 01:12:19.750
tank temperatures on top of just the miner itself and being able to have those talk to each other back and forth is
971
01:12:20.530 --> 01:12:22.375
well, well, that's something I'm working on.
972
01:12:22.995 --> 01:12:26.534
One thing I would love to I I think, John John, you and I talked about this.
973
01:12:27.235 --> 01:12:30.614
With with all mining setups right now, you kinda optimize
974
01:12:31.140 --> 01:12:35.000
for watt usage. Like, when when we talk about the auto tuning feature that that,
975
01:12:35.860 --> 01:12:39.240
brands offers, you're optimizing for a certain wattage.
976
01:12:39.985 --> 01:12:41.925
So you're maximizing your Terahash,
977
01:12:43.985 --> 01:12:47.844
for that wattage. But as as this technology progresses
978
01:12:48.145 --> 01:12:48.645
and,
979
01:12:50.020 --> 01:12:51.960
you know, these miners start entering
980
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:53.620
homes for heating,
981
01:12:54.660 --> 01:12:55.800
I think, you know,
982
01:12:56.845 --> 01:13:04.065
upstream data is kinda hinted at and kinda what you're working out with working on heating your pool, it would be awesome to start optimizing for
983
01:13:04.570 --> 01:13:05.310
chip temperature.
984
01:13:05.610 --> 01:13:08.190
So if you could if you had firmware to optimize
985
01:13:08.490 --> 01:13:10.830
so that the the chip temperatures were,
986
01:13:11.290 --> 01:13:13.470
I I don't know, say, 70 degrees
987
01:13:14.635 --> 01:13:19.615
during the winter, you know, you could kinda pump that into your house and and regulate that. And then
988
01:13:19.995 --> 01:13:21.935
the temperature would or the the
989
01:13:22.360 --> 01:13:27.740
watt input would scale up and down to match that. Just just kinda act as a a thermostat, essentially.
990
01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:33.275
Yeah. That's exactly it. Then and that was one of my first focuses is,
991
01:13:34.855 --> 01:13:37.114
and getting those probes to to
992
01:13:37.735 --> 01:13:44.300
register on the pie. So the pie knows the tank temperature. And if there if you can make that tank oil temperature steady,
993
01:13:45.719 --> 01:13:48.219
and when it rises or drops,
994
01:13:48.665 --> 01:13:52.045
then it can change the minor output to adjust also.
995
01:13:52.665 --> 01:13:55.085
Suddenly, you have a heat source
996
01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:58.020
very similar to what you would have in a home where
997
01:13:58.400 --> 01:14:00.420
you never had your heater on 100%
998
01:14:01.440 --> 01:14:07.935
all the time or just off 100% all the time. It, you know, when it gets a little bit colder, turns on for a while, turns off for a while.
999
01:14:08.235 --> 01:14:10.335
And it would be similar to that. Obviously,
1000
01:14:10.715 --> 01:14:12.020
you're gonna wanna have
1001
01:14:12.500 --> 01:14:16.600
the mining as much as possible. You don't want them just to have them off and being idle.
1002
01:14:17.460 --> 01:14:27.275
And then I'm working on systems for that where then you you would basically instead of piping the heat inside the house, you would pipe it outside kind of like how a air conditioner works
1003
01:14:27.770 --> 01:14:35.615
where you have that external unit. And then in in colder climates, you would just have keep it all internal, and it would go through whatever heating system you have.
1004
01:14:36.015 --> 01:14:40.275
And I I definitely think that that's gonna be worked on in the future, but I don't think that that's where
1005
01:14:41.055 --> 01:14:43.715
that's where the money is. Like, it all
1006
01:14:44.250 --> 01:14:45.550
everything is incentivized
1007
01:14:45.929 --> 01:14:46.329
for,
1008
01:14:47.929 --> 01:14:54.605
you know, these companies get as many miners online as possible. And Yep. You know, if you bring on a few miners here and there,
1009
01:14:55.145 --> 01:14:57.085
to heat at home, that's not really gonna
1010
01:14:57.465 --> 01:15:00.125
that's not gonna pay the bills. That's not gonna pay all your developers.
1011
01:15:01.180 --> 01:15:06.880
So you're having to be creative with these these raspberry pies and, you know, kinda optimizing that on your own.
1012
01:15:07.740 --> 01:15:13.815
But I I do think in the next, you know, the next epoch, the next 4 years, we might start seeing some stuff like that.
1013
01:15:15.315 --> 01:15:20.100
And I don't know. I I just think that that that's probably one of the things that I'm the most fascinated
1014
01:15:20.719 --> 01:15:21.620
about is,
1015
01:15:22.320 --> 01:15:24.580
that coming into the everyday house.
1016
01:15:25.365 --> 01:15:38.720
Well, and if you think about it, I mean, especially with ASICs, you know, so when we step back before ASICs, it was computers, and then people were hashing at home. Right? Because it was just your computer and then a bunch of graphics cards and it got a little more, but it was still your computer.
1017
01:15:39.180 --> 01:15:50.830
You got to ASICs and then high speed fans, and and nobody wanted them in their home because they're basically as loud as a shop vac. And so if we bring that back around again and put them into an enclosure
1018
01:15:51.450 --> 01:15:53.790
that can dissipate that volume of heat
1019
01:15:54.570 --> 01:15:56.110
with low fan noise,
1020
01:15:56.495 --> 01:15:58.755
you can kinda bring it back into that market again.
1021
01:16:00.575 --> 01:16:06.250
What was there? 2, 2, 3 of us had to shut our minors off just so that we could do
1022
01:16:06.630 --> 01:16:13.370
this just so that we could do this live recording and not have Yeah. I don't have that problem over here. I don't know what you're talking about. No. I know you don't.
1023
01:16:14.195 --> 01:16:18.935
I know you're right. Actually, I have 5 on air cool right now, so I'm just giving them crap.
1024
01:16:19.395 --> 01:16:22.260
Matt O'Dell said he'd cover the, the blocks we lose,
1025
01:16:22.659 --> 01:16:35.445
by turning them off. So that was really nice of him. Haven't hidden blocks yet, so we're gonna have to keep pushing this one. You might not know that. The freaks know when they haven't heard me for 45 minutes is a good dispatch. Slashpool mind the block
1026
01:16:36.385 --> 01:16:44.920
a little over an hour ago. I think we might have caught a block. Oh, I do I do wanna I do wanna ask you guys though, because I this is an honest question. I don't know.
1027
01:16:46.179 --> 01:16:47.719
Does mining over tor
1028
01:16:48.020 --> 01:16:48.520
actually
1029
01:16:50.164 --> 01:16:54.664
impede any of your any of your hash rate or anything like that?
1030
01:16:55.204 --> 01:17:01.760
Because I just I just rock a VPN. Seems to work fine for me. I would like to be a little more,
1031
01:17:04.875 --> 01:17:06.014
I don't know, clandestine
1032
01:17:06.395 --> 01:17:16.270
about it. I don't know if it's possible because my my utility company already knows that I'm sucking down a tremendous about amount of power, but
1033
01:17:17.130 --> 01:17:21.389
I don't know how I don't know how mining over Tor works. Is it is it even feasible?
1034
01:17:24.255 --> 01:17:30.355
I I'm not the best person to talk about this, but I think as long as you have a good Internet connection, it's it's not a huge deal.
1035
01:17:31.570 --> 01:17:34.449
Alright. Because I was afraid I was afraid that since
1036
01:17:34.929 --> 01:17:37.670
Tor is kinda You don't wanna mine over Tor.
1037
01:17:38.050 --> 01:17:47.025
Alright. That's You have you have to use a VPN. And a hardcore miner will tell you that a VPN has too much latency, but I think the privacy gains are worth it.
1038
01:17:48.510 --> 01:17:50.450
Yeah. I would I think I would definitely
1039
01:17:50.830 --> 01:17:51.890
agree with that.
1040
01:17:53.550 --> 01:17:57.905
I have a I have a question while I have all these mining wizards on, and we were talking about,
1041
01:17:59.985 --> 01:18:06.250
we were talking about coin heated and Brett's, like, using a rasp pi for remote diagnostic.
1042
01:18:08.070 --> 01:18:09.620
You know, a lot of us,
1043
01:18:11.085 --> 01:18:12.065
you know, nonprofessional
1044
01:18:12.525 --> 01:18:16.864
miners talk about Stratum v 2 being a great addition,
1045
01:18:17.245 --> 01:18:19.344
to the ecosystem in terms of incentives,
1046
01:18:20.130 --> 01:18:21.270
but it has a
1047
01:18:22.210 --> 01:18:28.870
an additional cost, basically, to miners that they have to run their own nodes and construct their own blocks. I mean, that's the advantage,
1048
01:18:30.355 --> 01:18:46.489
of Stratum v 2. One of the main advantages of Stratum v 2 is that they're in control of the blocks and they're using their own node. Is that something you that, you know, the people on the panel right now are excited about, or is that something you're not even you you wouldn't even wanna do that? You don't you wouldn't even want that extra overhead.
1049
01:18:47.034 --> 01:18:49.855
Did you just say Stratum v 2 has downsides?
1050
01:18:50.554 --> 01:18:55.215
You you wouldn't you don't even have to do that. You don't have to do block swaps. Man.
1051
01:18:56.820 --> 01:18:59.800
But is that something you guys want? Like, do you want that?
1052
01:19:00.420 --> 01:19:02.360
Block selection transaction selection?
1053
01:19:02.739 --> 01:19:03.239
Yes.
1054
01:19:03.685 --> 01:19:14.510
Oh, yeah. It it is an extra burden on the miner because you do have to run your own node in some way, and I don't know if that would appear on the, you know, in the mining hardware that you buy or if you'd have to pair it with,
1055
01:19:16.270 --> 01:19:17.010
with something.
1056
01:19:17.949 --> 01:19:21.995
I assume once it comes out, there'll be, like, proxy services. You can you can tell slash pool or f two pool services. You can you can tell
1057
01:19:22.375 --> 01:19:24.555
slash pool or f two pool to
1058
01:19:24.935 --> 01:19:26.395
to pick blocks for you, but
1059
01:19:28.320 --> 01:19:34.900
I don't know. I I I see what you're saying, Matt. That definitely was an extra burden on on the miner that hasn't been really talked about.
1060
01:19:35.805 --> 01:19:39.425
But I think 99% of the the world is excited for v 2.
1061
01:19:39.965 --> 01:19:45.265
I'm excited for v 2. I think it's gonna be really useful with, reducing, like, the empty block,
1062
01:19:47.090 --> 01:19:48.310
mining, I guess.
1063
01:19:49.250 --> 01:19:51.989
I I like, block selection is exciting.
1064
01:19:53.250 --> 01:19:54.710
I don't know how
1065
01:19:55.455 --> 01:20:04.915
like, maybe Marty can speak more to this. I don't know how it's gonna work for some of the bigger miners. Like, I don't know if this is something that's really exciting for you, Marty, being able to kinda choose what blocks you wanna mine.
1066
01:20:06.080 --> 01:20:08.960
But I I'm just excited for some of the other features like,
1067
01:20:10.480 --> 01:20:12.180
data usage reduction with stratumv2,
1068
01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:19.705
that kind of stuff. Like, there's lots of cool stuff that goes into it. Yeah. I mean, for I think we're certainly excited for it.
1069
01:20:21.225 --> 01:20:25.620
And I think all the efficiency gains and then the being able to create your
1070
01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:33.565
own block and having to run a full node, you're saying that you're already running 100 of computers and setting up the these networks and connecting with the pool, like,
1071
01:20:33.865 --> 01:20:41.810
for us, I mean, we have a bunch of Bitcoiners in our engineering team, Austin. I don't think he'd have a problem spinning up a a full pairing it with our operations
1072
01:20:42.350 --> 01:20:44.770
even if we had multiple full nodes per container
1073
01:20:45.150 --> 01:20:46.770
or, like, full node per container,
1074
01:20:47.275 --> 01:20:53.375
or we could just create our own subnet with with its own signal full net. Yeah. I don't I wanna see that being problem, and
1075
01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:04.295
it it's always a good option to have in the very least the the ability to create your own block. I guess the the interesting question is after that, once you
1076
01:21:05.315 --> 01:21:06.535
feed it to the pool,
1077
01:21:07.395 --> 01:21:08.695
to slush pool, like,
1078
01:21:08.995 --> 01:21:09.815
like, is that
1079
01:21:10.310 --> 01:21:14.250
a point at which can be rejected and they can pick pick another block? I guess that's the,
1080
01:21:16.150 --> 01:21:18.735
one of, like, the, like, steel man
1081
01:21:19.275 --> 01:21:19.775
questions
1082
01:21:20.635 --> 01:21:26.974
that we would ask. Like, if you had a troll if you had a troll miner that was just constructing horrible blocks.
1083
01:21:28.130 --> 01:21:29.670
Yeah. If the block gets rejected,
1084
01:21:30.210 --> 01:21:33.909
then does does the pool lose it and it goes back?
1085
01:21:35.045 --> 01:21:36.745
Can I shortly speak to this?
1086
01:21:37.445 --> 01:21:43.465
Please. I'm I'm one of the authors of, the draft of the v two with Pavel.
1087
01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:48.620
Currently, we're working with, Square Crypto who
1088
01:21:49.159 --> 01:21:51.820
greatly took over the v two
1089
01:21:52.415 --> 01:21:56.835
efforts, and they are actually focusing on adding functionality
1090
01:21:57.375 --> 01:22:01.235
into Bitcoin Core that would allow the job negotiation
1091
01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:04.000
to happen, because there's,
1092
01:22:04.640 --> 01:22:09.380
there's part that's just needed also on the Bitcoin Bitcoin core end.
1093
01:22:11.455 --> 01:22:11.955
Secondly,
1094
01:22:13.055 --> 01:22:16.115
you need essentially, the job negotiation protocol
1095
01:22:16.495 --> 01:22:24.150
is is, a sub protocol of v 2. So, it's not the mining part. It's the negotiation part. So,
1096
01:22:25.570 --> 01:22:27.270
initially, the the miner,
1097
01:22:28.145 --> 01:22:35.840
has to negotiate that the work that he has selected with the pool is valid, but at the same time, he can I mean, that's the proposal?
1098
01:22:36.300 --> 01:22:55.590
He can already start submitting the results based on his templates, and they can be rejected, like, later on. So that means, like, they it the pool cannot let you know that the the stuff that you submitted is is garbage because it tells you it's okay, but it's gonna show. The idea is that it would show up in the accounting, essentially, that this was
1099
01:22:55.970 --> 01:23:10.820
garbage. And the reason is that you want to be as efficient process as possible. Because if you, as a miner, are able to construct your own template as fast as possible, there's just no good reason for the pool to slow down the process of you submitting the results. Right?
1100
01:23:11.280 --> 01:23:16.875
The validation can come after, but it cannot be, real time because there's some negotiation
1101
01:23:17.495 --> 01:23:20.235
being done in parallel to this. So it's pretty complex,
1102
01:23:20.695 --> 01:23:22.555
concept, and it has some additional
1103
01:23:24.670 --> 01:23:25.170
requirements
1104
01:23:25.470 --> 01:23:31.490
on the pool software. So a pool and also has to be feature rich in order to support something like this.
1105
01:23:32.725 --> 01:23:34.745
So once once those guys
1106
01:23:35.125 --> 01:23:38.745
are are are done with their stuff, we can start thinking about this.
1107
01:23:40.324 --> 01:23:41.945
That being said, I
1108
01:23:42.949 --> 01:23:45.530
I feel that there are there's a lot of,
1109
01:23:46.309 --> 01:23:53.705
like, rumors around this feature that people find it as a super important thing. I think it's a super important thing,
1110
01:23:54.485 --> 01:23:55.545
as a security
1111
01:23:56.005 --> 01:23:57.545
or sorry, as a safety,
1112
01:23:58.245 --> 01:23:59.385
protocol feature
1113
01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:07.340
in case censorship would start happening. Well, it started happening last year, right, with certain certain new pools, but
1114
01:24:09.505 --> 01:24:19.140
you still have the option to switch over to another pool. But the great strength that I am seeing with, with v 2 is simply switching over to a straightforward
1115
01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:20.020
binary.
1116
01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:23.060
V 2 isn't what Satoshi
1117
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:25.700
envisioned. Well, Satoshi, right,
1118
01:24:26.675 --> 01:24:27.655
started with,
1119
01:24:28.195 --> 01:24:29.175
get blocked template.
1120
01:24:31.795 --> 01:24:32.295
So
1121
01:24:33.969 --> 01:24:36.389
I think I forgot the the flow now.
1122
01:24:36.690 --> 01:24:39.969
So do you do you think is it possible that,
1123
01:24:40.875 --> 01:24:44.574
with v 2 with individuals constructed in their own blocks,
1124
01:24:45.355 --> 01:24:48.014
can the individual construct empty blocks?
1125
01:24:48.715 --> 01:24:49.950
Oh, yeah. Sure. Why not?
1126
01:24:50.430 --> 01:24:51.650
It's it's an accounting,
1127
01:24:52.510 --> 01:24:53.810
problem because
1128
01:24:54.190 --> 01:24:54.750
let's say you're
1129
01:24:55.550 --> 01:24:59.730
it's it's a corner case, but let's say you're the evil miner who for some
1130
01:25:00.145 --> 01:25:07.764
reason, likes empty blocks. Right? So you're gonna be proposing empty blocks. They're completely fine. They're illegal. You're not proposing,
1131
01:25:08.385 --> 01:25:13.960
invalid transactions, so they're gonna be approved by the pool unless there is some special policy on this.
1132
01:25:14.340 --> 01:25:19.025
But let's say the pool allows it. But what needs to be reflected is that you're essentially,
1133
01:25:19.725 --> 01:25:22.785
reducing the reward of of other miners. Right? Because,
1134
01:25:23.245 --> 01:25:24.065
the the
1135
01:25:24.525 --> 01:25:25.745
the the hash rate,
1136
01:25:26.900 --> 01:25:28.840
the the portion of the hash rate,
1137
01:25:29.860 --> 01:25:30.360
that
1138
01:25:31.059 --> 01:25:33.159
The portion portion of the transaction
1139
01:25:33.460 --> 01:25:38.335
rewards that you normally would have got not gonna be. That's what I was trying to say. Yeah. Yeah.
1140
01:25:39.034 --> 01:25:42.255
So so that would have to be compensated somehow,
1141
01:25:43.660 --> 01:25:48.640
that the rewards that you would be getting from the other blocks mined by other miners,
1142
01:25:49.180 --> 01:25:51.600
so your your cut would have to be
1143
01:25:52.275 --> 01:25:54.215
reduced, and it would have to reflect,
1144
01:25:54.755 --> 01:25:59.735
the fact that you are in favor of of empty blocks. So that's
1145
01:26:00.480 --> 01:26:05.619
that's why the the mold the market mold part. People are gonna migrate away from
1146
01:26:06.159 --> 01:26:09.780
migrate away from you be for the same reason that why
1147
01:26:12.195 --> 01:26:16.054
people will migrate away from, let's say, censored transactions
1148
01:26:16.355 --> 01:26:17.415
or something like that.
1149
01:26:17.840 --> 01:26:18.340
Like,
1150
01:26:19.520 --> 01:26:20.740
there are transactions
1151
01:26:21.120 --> 01:26:26.180
out there that are willing to pay someone, and there's always someone willing to
1152
01:26:27.085 --> 01:26:28.945
willing to mine those transactions.
1153
01:26:29.965 --> 01:26:30.465
So
1154
01:26:31.245 --> 01:26:33.425
you would actually be in a worse position
1155
01:26:33.885 --> 01:26:34.605
than somebody
1156
01:26:36.180 --> 01:26:39.480
Yeah. I okay. I get it. I get it. I'm seeing it now.
1157
01:26:40.580 --> 01:26:43.615
But, originally, what I wanted to say, I see the strength,
1158
01:26:44.255 --> 01:26:46.675
of the v 2, and just a pure
1159
01:26:47.055 --> 01:26:47.555
engineering
1160
01:26:48.015 --> 01:26:53.075
improvement of the security and the the efficiency of the transfers of data because,
1161
01:26:53.930 --> 01:26:57.390
I don't know if you looked in detail what v one contains,
1162
01:26:57.930 --> 01:26:58.250
but,
1163
01:26:58.969 --> 01:26:59.870
every single
1164
01:27:00.330 --> 01:27:00.830
submission
1165
01:27:01.575 --> 01:27:02.555
contains the string,
1166
01:27:03.255 --> 01:27:03.755
right,
1167
01:27:04.775 --> 01:27:16.970
mining sub byte or whatever that message is called. It's a it's like a useless string that could be expressed by a single byte, But we have transferred through all the years, like, terabytes and terabytes of this useless data.
1168
01:27:18.230 --> 01:27:21.235
Speaking of which, for locations that have some
1169
01:27:21.535 --> 01:27:22.675
bandwidth constraints,
1170
01:27:23.135 --> 01:27:24.515
that could actually,
1171
01:27:25.455 --> 01:27:27.635
be interesting. So that's one part.
1172
01:27:27.980 --> 01:27:32.480
The the data efficiency of the protocol itself, then the overall efficiency,
1173
01:27:34.140 --> 01:27:35.280
where certain messages
1174
01:27:35.820 --> 01:27:37.280
don't need to be sent,
1175
01:27:38.204 --> 01:27:40.465
when you broadcast new jobs and so on.
1176
01:27:41.485 --> 01:27:41.985
And
1177
01:27:42.525 --> 01:27:45.585
last but not least is the security part.
1178
01:27:45.890 --> 01:27:47.110
So now,
1179
01:27:47.890 --> 01:27:50.790
the protocol itself from user perspective
1180
01:27:51.409 --> 01:27:54.230
acts as what we're used to when using,
1181
01:27:55.215 --> 01:27:57.235
the web. Right? You have HTTPS
1182
01:27:58.095 --> 01:28:03.235
and your browser contains the root certificates that are that have been used to sign,
1183
01:28:03.650 --> 01:28:10.230
the the actual server certificate of your favorite website. And the the the same concept, but in a much
1184
01:28:10.690 --> 01:28:11.190
reduced,
1185
01:28:11.730 --> 01:28:14.855
way is implemented in v 2. It uses
1186
01:28:15.315 --> 01:28:19.950
a noise protocol framework, and it has chosen one of the handshakes that
1187
01:28:20.590 --> 01:28:26.450
allows authenticating the server. There's no need to authenticate the client for for for this purpose.
1188
01:28:27.070 --> 01:28:28.610
And all all the
1189
01:28:34.535 --> 01:28:35.675
Did we lose him?
1190
01:28:36.535 --> 01:28:38.210
Yeah. We might have lost him.
1191
01:28:39.650 --> 01:28:46.230
He was talking about the noise protocol. I can I can kinda go on about the noise protocol? I don't know a whole lot about noise protocol,
1192
01:28:46.665 --> 01:28:48.764
but the idea is it's, it's
1193
01:28:49.145 --> 01:28:54.824
it's used before actually initializing the connection. What the noise protocol does is it,
1194
01:28:55.530 --> 01:28:56.590
it basically connects
1195
01:28:57.130 --> 01:29:00.190
to the server from the client, and they do what's called a handshake.
1196
01:29:00.570 --> 01:29:05.390
And they basically just check some keys, that kind of stuff, some some general, like,
1197
01:29:06.235 --> 01:29:07.215
security stuff
1198
01:29:07.675 --> 01:29:21.080
just to make sure that the This is between the miner and the pool. Right? Pool. Yes. Okay. And and so that that noise handshake just basically ensures that the pool is actually who they say they are using some encrypted keys, that type of stuff.
1199
01:29:21.405 --> 01:29:23.905
And then after that, they open an encrypted tunnel
1200
01:29:26.285 --> 01:29:46.535
between the pool and the miner, and it it's like you you're literally putting, like, a tube around your connection. Like, nobody can get into that. They can see kinda where it's coming from and but they can't really tell where it's going. They can't really tell the data, and it's it's kinda messy for people. And on top of that, one of the nice things about Stratum v 2 using this noise protocol handshake
1201
01:29:46.915 --> 01:29:48.695
and also this encrypted connection
1202
01:29:49.150 --> 01:29:50.530
is that it prevents,
1203
01:29:52.030 --> 01:29:57.090
what's called a man in the middle attack, which is where people basically go. They pretend they're the pool,
1204
01:29:58.065 --> 01:30:01.125
whether that be your ISP could do something like that or
1205
01:30:01.505 --> 01:30:01.905
peeps
1206
01:30:02.305 --> 01:30:05.445
somebody somebody malicious malicious some malicious actor.
1207
01:30:06.050 --> 01:30:08.630
They would get between you and the pool. They'd say, hey. We're
1208
01:30:09.010 --> 01:30:10.630
x pool that you're using.
1209
01:30:11.250 --> 01:30:16.195
So give us some portion of your hash rate, and then they'd kinda proxy you onwards.
1210
01:30:16.575 --> 01:30:26.790
And if if they do this right, it's barely even noticeable. It would be such a small portion, but they're still siphoning off your hash rate. And so v 2 prevents that by basically encrypting all that data.
1211
01:30:27.969 --> 01:30:33.344
Another another really nice thing about v 2, and I think Yan kinda talked about this a little bit, is
1212
01:30:34.045 --> 01:30:36.864
how much it actually reduces bandwidth usage.
1213
01:30:37.244 --> 01:30:38.704
So with v one,
1214
01:30:39.165 --> 01:30:41.890
my understanding of v one is that it sends JSON,
1215
01:30:43.790 --> 01:30:44.930
to and from the pool.
1216
01:30:45.470 --> 01:30:49.490
Maybe encrypted. I'm not entirely sure. Maybe Kahuna knows a little more about that.
1217
01:30:51.035 --> 01:30:54.094
But it it sends JSON data between the pool and the miner.
1218
01:30:54.395 --> 01:30:54.895
Whereas,
1219
01:30:55.835 --> 01:30:56.335
because,
1220
01:30:56.795 --> 01:31:03.790
sorry, some history on this. In the past, you would want your stratum information to actually be human readable. You would want to be able to,
1221
01:31:05.150 --> 01:31:05.810
to basically,
1222
01:31:06.415 --> 01:31:18.360
if you if you really felt like it, go in and actually read your stratum data from your miner or from the pool or whatever. And so JSON data, JavaScript object notation data is human readable, and it's just a set of key value pairs.
1223
01:31:19.300 --> 01:31:22.920
Whereas something like Strata v 2, I believe, uses
1224
01:31:23.300 --> 01:31:23.800
binary.
1225
01:31:24.565 --> 01:31:33.625
And so they're converting it into a nonhuman readable format, but the amount of bytes that are being used by it are actually considerably less.
1226
01:31:34.100 --> 01:31:44.685
And so those are just some of the benefits of v 2. I I don't know if you said the codes. Correct? I I just am not technical enough, but you hit hit the nail on the head. Just going from human reader readable to,
1227
01:31:45.145 --> 01:31:51.645
you know, a a smaller text format, you you have less data to less data to communicate between the pools
1228
01:31:52.260 --> 01:31:53.320
and the miners,
1229
01:31:53.940 --> 01:31:58.360
and that just requires less bandwidth. So if you're operating out in the middle of the ocean,
1230
01:31:59.235 --> 01:32:08.614
for a mining or a, you know, an oil rig or something that's less static, you have to transfer back and forth, and that allows you to operate under a, you know, a shittier Internet Internet connection.
1231
01:32:09.710 --> 01:32:12.450
Yon, did I did I mess up, VT? No.
1232
01:32:12.910 --> 01:32:15.170
I think I think you did. You did very well.
1233
01:32:15.550 --> 01:32:20.375
I don't know at what point my connection cut off. I just saw my might be muted. So,
1234
01:32:21.074 --> 01:32:28.320
can you guys hear me now? Right? Yes. That's that's impressive that I actually managed to Yeah. One one note done.
1235
01:32:29.420 --> 01:32:38.505
Yeah. One one note to noise is is is pretty much a standard thing that is being used by signal, and I think even WhatsApp uses it for the end to end encryption.
1236
01:32:38.860 --> 01:32:41.440
And what is good about it is it's it's a crypto,
1237
01:32:42.380 --> 01:32:44.800
done the right way, and it's very hard
1238
01:32:45.660 --> 01:32:46.880
to do it wrong because,
1239
01:32:47.275 --> 01:32:51.155
basically, all you do is you design the handshake. You just
1240
01:32:51.595 --> 01:33:02.780
there's a formal language for it, and you choose the handshake that fits your your use case. Like, if you want to authenticate both ends or just the server, which is the case for for v 2. And it
1241
01:33:03.180 --> 01:33:15.455
if I say, like, originally, we were considering going with TLS 2.0, but then I had a talk with Matt Carrel, and he'll be like, wow. Why you do wanna use TLS 2.0? Because, like, even though TLS 2.0 is a good,
1242
01:33:16.450 --> 01:33:17.110
like, technologically,
1243
01:33:17.730 --> 01:33:29.895
it's it's up to date with the the modern crypto. It's AAD, so it's authenticated encryption with associated data. So what that means is that all the data is automatically encrypted, but at at the same time, the protocol
1244
01:33:30.355 --> 01:33:36.650
detects if anybody tempers with the data. So if you touch the encrypted data with the intention to,
1245
01:33:37.030 --> 01:33:45.175
you know, the server thing that somebody sent garbage, but the garbage would get decrypted and interpreted. That's not the case because it's it's easily
1246
01:33:45.635 --> 01:33:46.135
detectable.
1247
01:33:46.835 --> 01:33:59.175
So so TLS is a great thing, but at the same time, it has to deal with all the backward compatible shit, and it there's no, like, formal verification. Whereas for the noise, it it just doesn't have any backward compatible shit,
1248
01:34:00.275 --> 01:34:01.955
along with it. And,
1249
01:34:02.755 --> 01:34:05.655
it's a standard thing, and I think it has a formal verification.
1250
01:34:06.340 --> 01:34:10.440
So it was actually a pleasure developing something like this because,
1251
01:34:11.140 --> 01:34:17.725
everything was literally written in the spec of the noise particle framework, and we just chose, one of the handshakes
1252
01:34:18.344 --> 01:34:19.085
and used
1253
01:34:19.625 --> 01:34:20.125
Snow,
1254
01:34:20.585 --> 01:34:31.440
to to generate the code for us for Rust, for example. Nice. But yeah. So so so that's that's why we chose, and I'm very grateful for, for Matt Corral's input on this,
1255
01:34:31.945 --> 01:34:44.220
because he convinced me literally, like, saying, let's just do let's do it this way. I was like, that that makes perfect sense. And at that time, I didn't even know that that existed, which was my my engineering mistake. But yeah. So,
1256
01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:46.780
this part is, I think, very solid.
1257
01:34:47.960 --> 01:34:53.885
Oh, and by the way, for anybody in chat who wants to know just how crazy smart the team at brains are,
1258
01:34:54.585 --> 01:34:57.005
see if you can find the stratum v 2 specifications.
1259
01:34:57.785 --> 01:35:09.390
That stuff is full of so much technical data. It's it's crazy. These people are amazing, and Jan is super smart. So I'm I'm super excited for what v two is eventually gonna bring.
1260
01:35:10.335 --> 01:35:19.315
Yeah. And we have we have a question from Don Reddy in the chat about v 2 and whether or not it changes or shifts any incentives. What is your viewpoint there?
1261
01:35:21.570 --> 01:35:22.050
I don't
1262
01:35:23.330 --> 01:35:25.270
so, actually, I noticed the question,
1263
01:35:25.969 --> 01:35:26.710
a little
1264
01:35:27.250 --> 01:35:29.804
while ago. I I tried thinking about it.
1265
01:35:32.364 --> 01:35:33.745
I don't think so. It changes,
1266
01:35:34.445 --> 01:35:35.665
incentives. I mean,
1267
01:35:36.610 --> 01:35:39.030
depends how you look at it. Like, from from engineering perspective,
1268
01:35:39.409 --> 01:35:46.150
people should have the incentive to use it because I don't know how to get around, the man in the middle problem. At the same time,
1269
01:35:46.915 --> 01:35:53.175
currently, there are not too many pools implementing. And, essentially, we are the only ones, so it's sort of like the prototype implementation.
1270
01:35:54.760 --> 01:35:55.960
So that is not,
1271
01:35:56.440 --> 01:36:02.540
you know, a good environment to say that we have changed something. But it's, again, it's a it's a work in progress.
1272
01:36:03.079 --> 01:36:04.335
But yeah.
1273
01:36:04.715 --> 01:36:06.094
So so the intention,
1274
01:36:06.635 --> 01:36:07.695
also the incentive
1275
01:36:07.995 --> 01:36:10.655
is very strong. But in order to,
1276
01:36:11.514 --> 01:36:16.139
be usable, you need the server and you need the client. Right? And until it's
1277
01:36:17.080 --> 01:36:18.380
publicly implemented,
1278
01:36:19.239 --> 01:36:19.739
by
1279
01:36:20.360 --> 01:36:21.955
our competitors, let's say,
1280
01:36:23.235 --> 01:36:23.735
it's
1281
01:36:24.115 --> 01:36:25.735
still not the case. Right?
1282
01:36:28.275 --> 01:36:31.280
And I guess the question was originally directed towards
1283
01:36:32.159 --> 01:36:33.059
the, transaction,
1284
01:36:34.320 --> 01:36:34.820
selection,
1285
01:36:36.320 --> 01:36:39.139
which in my opinion is a very logical extension
1286
01:36:39.440 --> 01:36:39.940
towards.
1287
01:36:44.875 --> 01:36:47.855
The the, it might be worth knowing that when you
1288
01:36:48.870 --> 01:36:49.370
when
1289
01:36:50.150 --> 01:36:57.210
whether a okay. If you're running stratum b 2, the miner and the pool still have to align with what the block
1290
01:36:57.545 --> 01:36:58.445
proposal is.
1291
01:36:58.905 --> 01:36:59.405
So
1292
01:36:59.785 --> 01:37:05.245
in a stratum v turner says, hey. I want to mine this block. They hand it off to the pool
1293
01:37:05.790 --> 01:37:08.530
If it's an empty block with no transactions in it,
1294
01:37:09.309 --> 01:37:10.610
or if it's a
1295
01:37:11.389 --> 01:37:16.715
block that doesn't pay the pool, the the Coinbase transaction, then they'll deny it.
1296
01:37:17.415 --> 01:37:20.875
So if there's something in there that they don't like, they'll they'll deny it.
1297
01:37:22.110 --> 01:37:31.304
But what I'm getting at is they they have to agree on the block that's being mined. And then once they do so, the miner is off to the races. They can they can mine that block. So
1298
01:37:31.764 --> 01:37:33.625
miner still gets to pick the block.
1299
01:37:34.244 --> 01:37:37.385
That's a protection against the pool doing something nefarious,
1300
01:37:38.090 --> 01:37:42.030
but the pool still does have to does have to agree to let them mine it.
1301
01:37:42.970 --> 01:37:49.145
So so I was kinda asking the opposite. So do you remember do you remember when that guy, he accidentally
1302
01:37:49.845 --> 01:37:50.505
he accidentally
1303
01:37:51.125 --> 01:37:51.865
this was
1304
01:37:52.405 --> 01:37:52.905
last
1305
01:37:54.690 --> 01:37:55.830
last epoch.
1306
01:37:56.690 --> 01:37:58.150
He accidentally ordered
1307
01:37:59.250 --> 01:38:00.710
he accidentally added
1308
01:38:01.330 --> 01:38:01.830
the
1309
01:38:03.445 --> 01:38:04.185
the transaction
1310
01:38:04.725 --> 01:38:07.065
fees into the block reward
1311
01:38:07.925 --> 01:38:10.905
and mined that block, and it was, like, 13
1312
01:38:11.490 --> 01:38:11.990
13
1313
01:38:13.250 --> 01:38:13.750
Bitcoin
1314
01:38:14.450 --> 01:38:14.950
something
1315
01:38:15.410 --> 01:38:17.350
or whatever, and it got rejected.
1316
01:38:17.890 --> 01:38:19.670
So what happens if
1317
01:38:20.765 --> 01:38:23.345
if an individual minor doing this
1318
01:38:23.725 --> 01:38:24.465
does that?
1319
01:38:25.005 --> 01:38:31.940
I guess that was the question I was originally asking, and I I don't I maybe I missed it. Well, that's a yeah.
1320
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:41.745
Those the the the answer is pretty simple because then such block is not valid and it's gonna be invalid. I mean, the proposal of the block is
1321
01:38:42.125 --> 01:38:47.185
is invalid and the pool is going to reject it. So the pool can temporarily let you submit,
1322
01:38:48.010 --> 01:38:52.750
results, but you can think about it as you have a as if you had a buggy miner,
1323
01:38:53.050 --> 01:38:56.030
and it would be generating shares with wrong,
1324
01:38:56.415 --> 01:38:58.995
I don't know, end time because it would be,
1325
01:39:00.094 --> 01:39:04.035
spinning the end time counter too fast. So, like,
1326
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:06.940
moving the the time of the block, and there's a limit,
1327
01:39:07.560 --> 01:39:08.460
after which,
1328
01:39:09.400 --> 01:39:11.505
the the proposed shares are not,
1329
01:39:12.758 --> 01:39:22.090
you know, legal anymore and acceptable. So the pool will start rejecting it, and the the only difference is that the pool would initially accept your your shares because it doesn't,
1330
01:39:22.950 --> 01:39:31.405
know the details of the blog that you're mining on. But once it figures out that these shares are associated with with your own blog that you proposed,
1331
01:39:32.105 --> 01:39:33.085
in the final,
1332
01:39:34.505 --> 01:39:42.460
check, let's say, or a bill at the end. So when you go into some static sticks, you would see that eventually all the shares,
1333
01:39:42.920 --> 01:39:43.820
have been rejected.
1334
01:39:44.120 --> 01:39:50.844
Like so so I I don't see it as a problem. It's a it's a firmware issue. It's a it's a problem with the What if your miner
1335
01:39:51.225 --> 01:39:57.230
what if your what if the person's miner who actually mined that block and then constructed the block poorly
1336
01:39:58.650 --> 01:40:00.909
so that it became a rejected block.
1337
01:40:01.849 --> 01:40:03.389
It's an economical damage
1338
01:40:03.985 --> 01:40:08.085
Then So then it's the pool doesn't hit the block either then, though. Right?
1339
01:40:09.105 --> 01:40:10.810
Right. But it's it it just,
1340
01:40:11.210 --> 01:40:20.510
from full perspective, it is the same as if that miner was not connected at all. Like, I mean, you can think about it that energy has been wasted because he has been,
1341
01:40:21.085 --> 01:40:37.015
mining and using that energy to generate shares that eventually are not valid because the pro the block proposal or the block template is not valid. But the system should be designed in a way that we're not talking about hours here. It's just a matter of seconds. So once you,
1342
01:40:37.315 --> 01:40:53.165
construct, such an invalid block template, you send it to the pool. It's doing its, you know, validation work. But at the same time, you already started mining on top of this Yes. So I so it's gonna be sorted out, and and it should be sorted out in seconds. But these seconds are critical
1343
01:40:53.625 --> 01:40:54.105
for,
1344
01:40:54.505 --> 01:40:58.445
the miner to to work efficiently because once it knows its template,
1345
01:40:59.065 --> 01:41:11.815
it it should start mining on top of it. Right? This is the same issue as with the pool. Like, anytime there's a new block found in the network, the the biggest job that each pool has is to generate a new template and distribute
1346
01:41:12.115 --> 01:41:18.215
it among the miners. V 2 pulls this a little bit further because it it tries to propose you an alternative
1347
01:41:18.679 --> 01:41:19.260
template to
1348
01:41:19.719 --> 01:41:28.074
to the to the current block or to the current block template that is being mined. And when a new block is found in network and this alternative template
1349
01:41:29.094 --> 01:41:40.570
is still valid, so it contains let's say it would be empty or it contains transactions that were from the second half of the mempool that were not for sure included with some probability. Let's say, you know,
1350
01:41:40.950 --> 01:41:44.614
you know, the ordering on different nodes is not always guaranteed,
1351
01:41:45.795 --> 01:42:13.170
then these miners, just by knowing or being notified by the pool that, they're supposed to start mining on top of a new block template. They can already start mining because they already have the templates from the pool. And this is exactly the same case with, with, locally generated templates. You have it really fast. Let's say you're you're a big fan of empty blocks, so you start mining on your own, empty block template. You you keep submitting, and you just made a small mistake that the,
1352
01:42:14.030 --> 01:42:15.010
block output
1353
01:42:15.550 --> 01:42:16.929
value is not 6.25,
1354
01:42:17.389 --> 01:42:21.765
but it's 7. And if, you know, if there's no no no transactions,
1355
01:42:22.465 --> 01:42:37.995
and that the reward is over the, consensus protocol, then this this template is invalid. While the pool is gonna tell you in a in a couple seconds probably or even faster, and then it would start rejecting your shares and all the shares that have been, like,
1356
01:42:38.535 --> 01:42:52.140
preliminary accepted until the point where we have found out that the block is not valid, although the template is not valid, they would be like, their status would be changed in the accounting. So you would you will see that you you know, essentially, your hash rate has dropped.
1357
01:42:52.680 --> 01:42:56.014
The miner would be the miner would be burning electricity
1358
01:42:56.315 --> 01:43:04.140
at the cost. No. It wasn't it it definitely wasn't a criticism. It it was just a question. I was just wondering how exactly that would work
1359
01:43:05.100 --> 01:43:12.864
because And it's, it is important to realize that all these things have been already experienced by the poor developers. And, I
1360
01:43:13.165 --> 01:43:15.905
mean, trust me that throughout the history,
1361
01:43:16.525 --> 01:43:18.224
all the different pool implementation
1362
01:43:18.844 --> 01:43:21.105
must have had this issue where they actually
1363
01:43:21.485 --> 01:43:21.890
waste
1364
01:43:22.290 --> 01:43:24.150
it, some of the,
1365
01:43:24.690 --> 01:43:30.375
you know, energy because they basically mined something that was not valid. And they realize it. It was a software mistake.
1366
01:43:30.995 --> 01:43:32.535
But by by this feature,
1367
01:43:33.555 --> 01:43:34.055
you
1368
01:43:34.515 --> 01:43:36.055
at the you you provide
1369
01:43:37.310 --> 01:43:43.730
a security feature for for for Bitcoin network because you can choose your own transactions, but it puts more responsibility
1370
01:43:44.190 --> 01:43:45.969
on the software that is distributing
1371
01:43:46.775 --> 01:43:49.275
distributed among miners, that it generates,
1372
01:43:50.615 --> 01:43:51.675
valid templates
1373
01:43:52.215 --> 01:43:53.915
based on their requirements.
1374
01:43:54.730 --> 01:43:58.829
Well yeah. And it was my it was my understanding that the person that
1375
01:43:59.290 --> 01:44:01.790
that screwed up that block, that add added
1376
01:44:02.329 --> 01:44:03.310
added wrong,
1377
01:44:03.785 --> 01:44:05.965
fat fingered something, whatever they did,
1378
01:44:06.425 --> 01:44:11.965
was they actually soul a mind to block, which is, in my understanding, damn near impossible.
1379
01:44:12.870 --> 01:44:13.370
And
1380
01:44:14.470 --> 01:44:15.450
they did that,
1381
01:44:16.070 --> 01:44:23.094
and they lost out on it anyways because and it just went to the next person that or the next mining pool or whomever
1382
01:44:24.035 --> 01:44:25.735
ended up mining the block afterwards.
1383
01:44:26.195 --> 01:44:30.055
So that's what I was that that's more what I was curious about was
1384
01:44:31.050 --> 01:44:32.110
whether or not
1385
01:44:33.770 --> 01:44:40.915
that had been taken into consideration because that could screw up things. But then you're saying that nobody is actually even gonna know
1386
01:44:41.614 --> 01:44:43.315
that you ever screwed up
1387
01:44:43.775 --> 01:44:44.755
the block template.
1388
01:44:46.570 --> 01:44:47.070
You
1389
01:44:47.770 --> 01:44:51.230
just screwed up the block. The the the pool will know that you're,
1390
01:44:52.010 --> 01:44:55.310
an unfortunate miner that cannot generate valid templates.
1391
01:44:55.915 --> 01:45:04.575
But Got it. Check them out. And and then, the the the pool support may try contacting you. Like, if this is something that is happening
1392
01:45:07.500 --> 01:45:10.880
regularly, then it's a it's a software issue that should be fixed.
1393
01:45:11.420 --> 01:45:12.719
So But Yeah.
1394
01:45:13.765 --> 01:45:16.345
Like, as a minor, though, you should be probably
1395
01:45:17.205 --> 01:45:18.825
monitoring this. Like,
1396
01:45:19.285 --> 01:45:23.320
yeah, like like, if you're using v 2 and you're actually doing your own transaction
1397
01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:32.060
you
1398
01:45:32.755 --> 01:45:38.454
you would assume these would be the type of miners that would actually be paying attention to their rejected shares and stuff
1399
01:45:38.755 --> 01:45:48.099
to see if they've actually messed something up, wouldn't you, until they they learn better? Oh, yeah. Sure. I mean I mean, the the incentive is very strong, so I don't think this will be,
1400
01:45:48.995 --> 01:45:55.015
a very Yeah. But that's a that's a gigantic case. Yeah. The gigantic learning curve from
1401
01:45:55.790 --> 01:45:58.450
buying miners and plugging them in to
1402
01:45:58.910 --> 01:46:01.650
like, the first time I ever opened command mine
1403
01:46:02.030 --> 01:46:03.650
command line in my life
1404
01:46:04.510 --> 01:46:05.010
was
1405
01:46:07.215 --> 01:46:09.795
to install the brains OS software,
1406
01:46:10.975 --> 01:46:12.114
the brains OS
1407
01:46:13.270 --> 01:46:20.969
on the Antminer. So that is the first time I've ever opened command command line in my life. And then now you fast forward
1408
01:46:21.670 --> 01:46:22.820
a a year,
1409
01:46:24.375 --> 01:46:27.995
and I just got Hash rate coming out of my fucking ears.
1410
01:46:29.095 --> 01:46:30.875
And That's a terminal wizard.
1411
01:46:32.719 --> 01:46:33.219
Yeah.
1412
01:46:34.719 --> 01:46:36.020
Oh, I got another question.
1413
01:46:36.719 --> 01:46:39.699
Are you guys bringing push notifications back ever
1414
01:46:41.040 --> 01:46:43.065
on the app, slush pool
1415
01:46:47.685 --> 01:46:48.185
app?
1416
01:46:49.125 --> 01:46:50.745
For the blocks. Right?
1417
01:46:52.110 --> 01:46:52.850
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1418
01:46:53.250 --> 01:46:53.750
Yeah.
1419
01:46:54.150 --> 01:46:54.650
Yeah.
1420
01:46:55.050 --> 01:46:55.550
Yeah.
1421
01:46:55.950 --> 01:47:02.784
Sorry. I didn't mean to just totally change. Just totally pivot in the middle of my sentence. I was reading Oh, that's okay. Because I
1422
01:47:03.425 --> 01:47:07.605
which I shouldn't have been doing, and a buddy of mine hit hit it up.
1423
01:47:11.280 --> 01:47:16.260
I will I will talk to the product guys. I I don't have the answer. I don't know.
1424
01:47:16.800 --> 01:47:18.074
Because push notifications
1425
01:47:18.534 --> 01:47:21.835
work, in terms of the rewards that you're getting.
1426
01:47:23.815 --> 01:47:25.675
I will check with them. I don't know.
1427
01:47:25.980 --> 01:47:27.360
Submit a ticket on Slushpool.
1428
01:47:28.220 --> 01:47:45.470
Send it to, the Slushpool team, and they'll help you out. Same thing that happens in the Crazy West chat. Yeah. No. I didn't I didn't mean to put a put a bunch of pressure on you guys. I was just reading it as I was talking, and then I got confused on what I was saying. So I was like, I'll just say that. Well, if there's anyone to ask, it's Jan.
1429
01:47:46.750 --> 01:47:47.490
It's alright.
1430
01:47:48.670 --> 01:47:49.410
It's alright.
1431
01:47:50.030 --> 01:47:51.870
Oh, there's an interesting question.
1432
01:47:52.190 --> 01:47:55.304
Could multiple pools collude and push the alternative
1433
01:47:55.605 --> 01:47:58.744
templates to include transactions that wouldn't be included otherwise?
1434
01:48:00.620 --> 01:48:06.640
Oh, yeah. Sure. As long as the transactions are valid. Right? The I mean, as long as the network accepts it.
1435
01:48:07.340 --> 01:48:10.445
So there was another one. From what I understand, they all with
1436
01:48:13.405 --> 01:48:15.264
With with regards to the first question,
1437
01:48:15.645 --> 01:48:17.085
wouldn't that mean that,
1438
01:48:17.565 --> 01:48:28.340
with these pools, it these would have to be pools that aren't letting their miners do their own transaction selection. You would need pools doing transaction non stratum 1 pools. Yeah. Yeah. So,
1439
01:48:28.935 --> 01:48:33.515
yeah, so you you'd have to have colluding pools that are fighting basically against,
1440
01:48:34.695 --> 01:48:39.739
against the actual people using them, being able to select their own transactions, and then colluding
1441
01:48:40.040 --> 01:48:41.900
to create their own block templates.
1442
01:48:43.719 --> 01:48:54.900
Another part of this comment is from what I I'm reading already. Right? From what I understand, the alternate different templates are pushed out to speed up the wait time for previous block found. Yes.
1443
01:48:55.360 --> 01:48:57.620
That is true. That is that could be actually
1444
01:48:58.080 --> 01:49:03.060
one reason that you could start mining on a new block faster than your colleagues.
1445
01:49:05.595 --> 01:49:06.655
The the point,
1446
01:49:07.115 --> 01:49:09.135
that I'm trying to make is that,
1447
01:49:09.835 --> 01:49:10.335
once
1448
01:49:10.635 --> 01:49:12.815
a a new block is found in the network,
1449
01:49:13.290 --> 01:49:17.389
So from that point when the pool knows about it,
1450
01:49:18.570 --> 01:49:20.750
all your shares are going to be rejected
1451
01:49:23.155 --> 01:49:25.495
until you learn about the new template.
1452
01:49:27.635 --> 01:49:30.135
Oh, okay. So that's so you that's
1453
01:49:30.579 --> 01:49:39.320
kinda part of what I was because if you cross if you cross the whole pool a block, then you're penalized for a little while until you can prove that
1454
01:49:40.745 --> 01:49:44.445
what you're using or what you're doing to assemble
1455
01:49:46.800 --> 01:49:53.200
to assemble the block is actually going to be valid next time that you assemble it, then you can then you can start
1456
01:49:53.895 --> 01:49:59.915
You won't even be able to start mining with the pool unless you propose a block that they're they agree with.
1457
01:50:00.295 --> 01:50:11.895
So if you if you, you know, put a piece of crap on my desk and I say, no. I'm not gonna even let you mine this, then you're you won't even be able to work with us. It it's like a contract. You have to agree to
1458
01:50:12.595 --> 01:50:16.455
mine a constructive block for yourself and the pool.
1459
01:50:16.790 --> 01:50:20.389
But then so then that only means that it that it follows the block
1460
01:50:21.110 --> 01:50:21.610
the
1461
01:50:22.070 --> 01:50:23.369
consensus rules.
1462
01:50:24.070 --> 01:50:28.054
But what If it doesn't if it's an empty block with no transactions
1463
01:50:28.355 --> 01:50:32.135
or it doesn't follow the consensus rules or it breaks a rule,
1464
01:50:32.870 --> 01:50:34.810
that your pool demands, then
1465
01:50:35.430 --> 01:50:36.410
it'll be rejected.
1466
01:50:36.870 --> 01:50:38.010
Okay. Okay.
1467
01:50:38.390 --> 01:50:51.460
Because I You won't even have started mining it because we will not have agreed to let you mine that block. Yeah. Because, essentially, what a pool is is they're just buying your hash. Right? Right? And then v 2 is different where you're actually
1468
01:50:52.800 --> 01:50:54.180
it's a different structure.
1469
01:50:54.640 --> 01:50:58.875
V 2 is I'm I'm building a house. I'm hiring you to do the drywall.
1470
01:50:59.815 --> 01:51:05.275
It's you know, here, I I will do all these walls. I will sand everything. I'll mud everything.
1471
01:51:06.600 --> 01:51:09.660
Do you agree? And I say, yes. And then you get to work.
1472
01:51:10.200 --> 01:51:10.700
If
1473
01:51:11.400 --> 01:51:12.540
if you just start,
1474
01:51:13.655 --> 01:51:24.750
you you know, if I say no, then, you know, you're you're not even gonna be contracted to work on my house. You're just gonna get back. So it's a sense it's a failure. You're buying you're buying the work.
1475
01:51:25.450 --> 01:51:38.165
Right. Yeah. It it's it's like you say, hey. Like, come in and and drywall my house, but submit me a plan for this first before you come in. And and if I don't like your plan, you can go away. I'll find someone else to do it. Yep.
1476
01:51:38.750 --> 01:51:48.855
Alright. I didn't know that v two worked like that. I get it now. I get it. But the the main difference the main difference is instead of the mining pool constructing the block. So you you take away that centralization
1477
01:51:49.155 --> 01:51:49.655
risk.
1478
01:51:51.235 --> 01:52:07.065
Yeah. I mean, in that example, the you know, I'm the I'm building a house. I tell b 1. I say, alright. Alright, Neil. You're gonna drywall all of these walls, and you're gonna you're gonna, you know, do it exactly how I say. But but in this example,
1479
01:52:07.605 --> 01:52:13.145
you're gonna propose me the the plan. And if I agree with it, then then we're off to the races.
1480
01:52:13.710 --> 01:52:15.890
So then in v 2, I say
1481
01:52:16.270 --> 01:52:22.370
I say, I'm mining all transactions. I don't care which ones are censored. And I I propose that
1482
01:52:23.275 --> 01:52:23.935
to you,
1483
01:52:24.715 --> 01:52:29.135
and I'm not saying I'm not saying you guys specifically. I'm just saying just arbitrarily.
1484
01:52:31.650 --> 01:52:33.830
I propose that to a mining pool,
1485
01:52:34.610 --> 01:52:35.670
and they say,
1486
01:52:36.530 --> 01:52:37.030
no.
1487
01:52:38.450 --> 01:52:54.370
You still need to exclude You need the center base? Yeah. You still need to exclude this Yeah. And this then you then you switch pools. Then you switch pool. That's not what it's protecting from. It's it's it's protecting from a minor a mining pool, like, specifically,
1488
01:52:56.795 --> 01:52:58.655
acting in bad faith, basically.
1489
01:52:59.355 --> 01:53:04.255
And then right? Like, you're you're preemptively stopping it instead of after the fact.
1490
01:53:04.670 --> 01:53:15.974
If that happens, you're gonna get all side eyed and be like, what's going on here? Why do you keep projecting my blocks? This is bullshit. Like, are you censoring something? And then you're just gonna flip pools, and everyone else is gonna do the same thing.
1491
01:53:16.355 --> 01:53:16.855
Rather
1492
01:53:17.395 --> 01:53:22.135
than me contributing my hash rate to a pool that then excludes
1493
01:53:23.180 --> 01:53:23.680
transactions
1494
01:53:24.540 --> 01:53:30.160
after the block has already been found, and then I have to leave. So you're just telling me straight up
1495
01:53:30.515 --> 01:53:32.055
in the beginning Exactly.
1496
01:53:32.915 --> 01:53:33.415
No.
1497
01:53:33.955 --> 01:53:42.040
We we are excluding these transactions. And if you don't wanna follow those rules, then you need to go somewhere else. Exactly. And that incentivizes
1498
01:53:42.580 --> 01:53:47.159
censorship resistance. Right? Because if you're a pool that's censoring some
1499
01:53:47.675 --> 01:53:56.895
transaction, and that transaction has a higher transaction fee than other transactions that are being put on a block, that's gonna incentivize miners to move to a different pool, which literally
1500
01:53:57.310 --> 01:53:57.810
deincentivizes
1501
01:53:58.270 --> 01:53:59.889
being a censoring pool.
1502
01:54:02.909 --> 01:54:04.290
Alright. I get it.
1503
01:54:06.265 --> 01:54:12.365
And it's it's kinda it's it's it's kind of important when it comes to regulation too. Right? That this idea that
1504
01:54:12.830 --> 01:54:19.410
that the that the pool isn't the one constructing the block in the first place. It's kinda like their hands are clean.
1505
01:54:23.175 --> 01:54:27.275
Oh, so there's so there so you're saying that there's less incentive for them
1506
01:54:27.655 --> 01:54:28.934
originally to even
1507
01:54:29.470 --> 01:54:32.930
Sensor because they're like, we're not constructing it. Yeah. Okay.
1508
01:54:34.350 --> 01:54:43.625
And then so that goes to a further question that r two, in the comments mentioned, who said he was gonna go to bed about 45 minutes ago, and he's still listening.
1509
01:54:45.280 --> 01:54:48.340
There's this pool, they're tiny, Laurentia pool,
1510
01:54:48.880 --> 01:54:52.820
that's run by Mind Farm and Buy, and they pay out the Coinbase transaction,
1511
01:54:53.145 --> 01:54:55.645
so they don't actually custody any funds.
1512
01:54:56.905 --> 01:55:05.520
I'm kind of curious on Jan's opinion of of that because, I mean, I think they're the only pool that's actually paying out directly from Coinbase. Are you aware of this?
1513
01:55:06.220 --> 01:55:13.125
Yes. We're aware of this. The problem is that this approach doesn't really scale because you are taking up, precious
1514
01:55:13.905 --> 01:55:14.885
box space,
1515
01:55:16.625 --> 01:55:17.445
and basically
1516
01:55:18.340 --> 01:55:24.440
reducing the the amount of fees. Right? So if you think about it, that you have
1517
01:55:26.005 --> 01:55:26.825
couple 1,000
1518
01:55:27.365 --> 01:55:36.040
minors that you're supposed to pay out, and you may not be left with any any space for regular transactions. So you would essentially
1519
01:55:36.660 --> 01:55:38.120
be mining, gigantic
1520
01:55:38.420 --> 01:55:40.200
and gigantic empty blocks,
1521
01:55:41.780 --> 01:55:42.840
with a huge,
1522
01:55:43.765 --> 01:55:44.665
fan out,
1523
01:55:45.445 --> 01:55:46.505
Coinbase transaction.
1524
01:55:48.885 --> 01:55:50.585
So I got a question about that.
1525
01:55:50.885 --> 01:55:52.345
So I thought about that.
1526
01:55:53.090 --> 01:55:57.909
I've heard about this. I haven't I haven't deep dove into it at all or anything like that.
1527
01:55:58.449 --> 01:55:58.769
But
1528
01:56:01.345 --> 01:56:02.005
so it's
1529
01:56:03.105 --> 01:56:03.605
completely
1530
01:56:05.185 --> 01:56:08.245
what's the word I'm looking for? Like, it's it's unusable
1531
01:56:09.739 --> 01:56:11.039
by your normal
1532
01:56:11.340 --> 01:56:12.159
home miner
1533
01:56:13.340 --> 01:56:16.880
because you can't pay somebody out their block reward
1534
01:56:18.145 --> 01:56:19.925
if they're mining on an s nine.
1535
01:56:20.545 --> 01:56:26.244
Because it's Think about it like you'd be paying out a bunch of tiny little transactions. It's essentially cost. Censoring
1536
01:56:26.700 --> 01:56:31.360
yourself because you you aren't paying enough transaction fee for it to even be worth paying.
1537
01:56:31.740 --> 01:56:34.240
Like, you'd have to be here. Whole your whole block.
1538
01:56:34.725 --> 01:56:40.824
Your whole block reward, what you what you get from a pool like that that pays out directly from Coinbase,
1539
01:56:41.525 --> 01:56:42.585
if you're a
1540
01:56:43.125 --> 01:56:44.090
a small
1541
01:56:44.430 --> 01:56:44.930
miner,
1542
01:56:45.270 --> 01:56:46.010
it's dust.
1543
01:56:46.470 --> 01:56:48.170
The only thing you're doing is paying
1544
01:56:49.110 --> 01:57:07.470
unless unless I'm missing something on that, like You're not. That's the issue. You're literally censoring yourself by not paying enough transaction fees to even, like, get your stuff through. You're mining for the miners. So you're showing the miners and that's it. For the listeners that are confused, we're not talking about Coinbase, the exchange. Coinbase
1545
01:57:07.850 --> 01:57:11.070
decided to name themselves after the Coinbase,
1546
01:57:11.515 --> 01:57:14.575
which is the transaction where the miners pay themselves.
1547
01:57:15.035 --> 01:57:18.255
What? So that has that has no fees
1548
01:57:18.850 --> 01:57:21.590
for the actual transaction, but the problem is that
1549
01:57:21.970 --> 01:57:30.605
the next transaction after that is It's in done at that point. In fact, this transaction collects the fees. So, let's say the block value is 6.25,
1550
01:57:31.385 --> 01:57:40.659
and all the fees of all the transactions are added to this output. So so the block value the the little literally, the the the amount being
1551
01:57:41.114 --> 01:57:44.495
inflated because that's the emission. Right? Bitcoin is 6.25
1552
01:57:45.035 --> 01:57:48.015
plus all the fees that are, in the transactions
1553
01:57:48.650 --> 01:57:49.390
that have been,
1554
01:57:50.010 --> 01:57:51.310
put into the block.
1555
01:57:52.890 --> 01:57:57.390
So you're completely right with the dust. So it works. Like, technically, it works.
1556
01:57:57.995 --> 01:58:01.275
The problem is it doesn't scale, and it has all these,
1557
01:58:01.995 --> 01:58:09.440
side effects. So you would have to have, I don't know, just a couple of miners, big miners, no small miners,
1558
01:58:11.579 --> 01:58:13.679
or you would have to somehow, like,
1559
01:58:14.135 --> 01:58:14.635
interleave
1560
01:58:15.095 --> 01:58:15.595
the,
1561
01:58:16.375 --> 01:58:17.035
the rewards
1562
01:58:17.575 --> 01:58:25.920
so not every miner would be included in a certain block. But I I don't wanna step into this because I'm not familiar with the exact algorithm that is,
1563
01:58:26.460 --> 01:58:28.160
being used in warranty approval.
1564
01:58:28.620 --> 01:58:30.880
Well, bay basically, I mean, I think
1565
01:58:31.285 --> 01:58:33.225
Mindfarm Buy, and I don't wanna
1566
01:58:33.685 --> 01:58:35.145
speak for him, but
1567
01:58:35.685 --> 01:58:40.745
I consider him a friend. I I I think that he understands that it's a major trade off,
1568
01:58:42.830 --> 01:58:44.450
but the concern is
1569
01:58:46.190 --> 01:58:49.570
if they start going aft if if government start going after
1570
01:58:50.175 --> 01:58:50.675
mining
1571
01:58:51.295 --> 01:58:52.675
pools for being custodians,
1572
01:58:53.055 --> 01:58:54.035
they don't have,
1573
01:58:55.775 --> 01:58:58.035
we wouldn't really have another solution besides
1574
01:58:59.135 --> 01:58:59.635
that.
1575
01:59:04.719 --> 01:59:05.940
Right. That's a valid,
1576
01:59:06.480 --> 01:59:08.225
valid point. But it's definitely if
1577
01:59:08.525 --> 01:59:11.345
if if we can avoid it, then avoid it.
1578
01:59:15.650 --> 01:59:22.230
Well, you can't you can't have small scale miners at that point. Right. And and then you're right back to the whole
1579
01:59:24.215 --> 01:59:27.435
block debate, but rather than debating nodes, you're
1580
01:59:28.935 --> 01:59:29.755
debating mining.
1581
01:59:30.920 --> 01:59:34.540
You're gonna have to you're gonna have to centralize mining again at that point.
1582
01:59:35.480 --> 01:59:48.785
If that's if that's a It's a trade off. It's a trade off like everything else. Right? It's it's the difference between more centralized mining pools versus more centralized miners. Yeah. It's not the ideal. You don't wanna be in that situation. Yeah. There's another question.
1583
01:59:49.230 --> 01:59:52.530
It's not even really a question. It's a statement about this guy,
1584
01:59:52.909 --> 01:59:56.210
K Joe, in the comments said that, you know, Blockware
1585
01:59:56.945 --> 01:59:59.845
shut down the facility that his miners were hosted in,
1586
02:00:01.265 --> 02:00:02.965
and now he's shit out of luck.
1587
02:00:05.060 --> 02:00:10.280
I'm curious what what the panelists think about this new, like, hosted mining phenomenon.
1588
02:00:11.140 --> 02:00:14.615
Blockware is one of the main ones who do it. Encompass is another one.
1589
02:00:15.315 --> 02:00:17.315
What are your thoughts on that? I
1590
02:00:18.595 --> 02:00:19.575
if if I could start.
1591
02:00:20.755 --> 02:00:21.895
I don't understand
1592
02:00:24.869 --> 02:00:25.770
the the financials
1593
02:00:26.469 --> 02:00:27.929
of something like Compass.
1594
02:00:29.110 --> 02:00:35.515
So you give them I think the last the last numbers I saw somebody was asking me about was you give them $24,000
1595
02:00:36.375 --> 02:00:37.035
up front.
1596
02:00:37.415 --> 02:00:38.395
You give them
1597
02:00:38.720 --> 02:00:39.220
something
1598
02:00:39.760 --> 02:00:40.580
like $6,000
1599
02:00:41.200 --> 02:00:41.780
a month
1600
02:00:42.160 --> 02:00:43.220
for 6 months,
1601
02:00:43.600 --> 02:00:46.500
and they put one miner online for you
1602
02:00:47.255 --> 02:00:47.755
starting
1603
02:00:48.295 --> 02:00:48.795
February
1604
02:00:49.175 --> 02:00:50.315
of 2022.
1605
02:00:51.815 --> 02:01:00.270
It's definitely getting worse and worse. I mean Oh, yeah. Obviously, everything's so profitable that everyone's jumping on board, and they only have so much capacity.
1606
02:01:01.210 --> 02:01:04.670
I'm not I'm not the type of guy, like, that figures out
1607
02:01:07.614 --> 02:01:13.875
I mean, if you were if you were lucky enough to, you know, buy s nines at $50 a pop back in November or
1608
02:01:14.260 --> 02:01:15.240
join Compass.
1609
02:01:16.100 --> 02:01:17.800
S nines. I meant, like, s nineteens.
1610
02:01:18.180 --> 02:01:21.720
Well, what I'm gonna ask or, like, you know, subscribe to
1611
02:01:22.355 --> 02:01:24.455
Compass back in November, you could get
1612
02:01:25.235 --> 02:01:27.015
you would get, like, you know,
1613
02:01:27.875 --> 02:01:39.150
decent profits, and you'd be able to turn on a miner at that moment. But mining is so incredibly profitable right now that they don't have the capacity for it, so their miners aren't even turning on until
1614
02:01:39.864 --> 02:01:42.045
May of next year. So, yeah, it's it's
1615
02:01:42.505 --> 02:01:45.785
a it's a crapshoot. I mean Is it some kind of weird,
1616
02:01:46.425 --> 02:01:46.925
like,
1617
02:01:48.920 --> 02:01:50.860
the hell is it called? Layaway program
1618
02:01:51.320 --> 02:01:54.460
or something where, like, you give them all the money up front,
1619
02:01:55.080 --> 02:01:57.020
and they they go buy
1620
02:01:58.034 --> 02:02:03.415
whatever contracts they can get. I don't get it. It makes I can't figure out the business model.
1621
02:02:03.955 --> 02:02:06.215
I think their business not model, like,
1622
02:02:07.130 --> 02:02:12.430
really broke when they ran out of capacity because, like, there's so much demand for miners that,
1623
02:02:13.370 --> 02:02:23.385
like I like you said, they're not even turning on until May of next year, which is ridiculous. Like, am I am I willing to send them that much money to turn on the card? Sending them you're already sending them
1624
02:02:24.270 --> 02:02:27.250
off upfront payment, and then you're giving them
1625
02:02:27.710 --> 02:02:34.744
$6,000 a month or don't quote me on that. I I honestly can't remember exactly how much money it was.
1626
02:02:35.125 --> 02:02:47.390
It's way more. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not like that. It's just, it's just a market thing. Right? They do it every single month, and then they don't even turn your miners. They don't even turn one miner on for you for 6 months,
1627
02:02:47.885 --> 02:02:50.545
and then you only get one additional miner
1628
02:02:51.005 --> 02:03:03.350
each month for You're talking about their bundle programs. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's it seems weird to me. Well, there's that there's that weird package thing that they have. You can also just buy a minor,
1629
02:03:03.730 --> 02:03:12.215
and then it'll just go on and, like, you pay what, you know, it's like, $9 for an s 19 or whatever it is, and then it goes online on whatever time and then you start paying monthly.
1630
02:03:13.450 --> 02:03:26.645
But but what what I've kinda come to understand is that your your average home user that is not technically savvy, they have maybe a laptop that they barely function with, and they know enough about it and they wanna get in on it.
1631
02:03:27.030 --> 02:03:31.370
That's a reasonable way for somebody that just doesn't know anything
1632
02:03:32.710 --> 02:03:36.410
to operate it, you know, that's as close as they're gonna get to actually mining
1633
02:03:36.755 --> 02:03:39.495
Bitcoin on their own and not just purchasing it outright.
1634
02:03:39.955 --> 02:03:50.040
Yeah. And I've I've had a couple of friends do that and, you know, he had a lot of money to throw at it and no technical abilities at all. And so mining at home, even if you have the capacity,
1635
02:03:50.980 --> 02:03:56.280
he just doesn't know how to do it. And so he went in on Compass, but, yeah, the demand is just
1636
02:03:57.045 --> 02:04:01.364
insane. And so but even if we just look at just a couple months ago, when the
1637
02:04:02.085 --> 02:04:07.040
when everything plummeted down, you could get a s 19 for 6 grand, 30 doubled in price.
1638
02:04:07.580 --> 02:04:19.835
Yeah. It it's a it's a market thing. Right? The demand is so high. The capacity is low. It's it's just what they can provide at this point. But I I mean, I could rant I could rant on this topic for a while. I think what they're doing is pretty incredible,
1639
02:04:20.455 --> 02:04:29.640
but it looks it looks so shitty just because they don't have the facilities that can plug these miners in yet because it takes so much time to plug them in. But if you definitely.
1640
02:04:29.995 --> 02:04:31.775
Oops. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.
1641
02:04:32.475 --> 02:04:40.060
Oh, you're fine. I I'm just saying it's like a different it's a different dynamic buying a miner today through Compass versus buying 1 in November. Like like I said, November,
1642
02:04:41.320 --> 02:04:44.860
Bitcoin wasn't as profitable to mine with. You could get it plugged in today,
1643
02:04:45.880 --> 02:04:48.780
but your mind if you buy a miner through them
1644
02:04:49.705 --> 02:04:50.025
now,
1645
02:04:50.585 --> 02:04:51.725
you know, September,
1646
02:04:52.345 --> 02:05:04.240
it's it's delayed because they have no place to put it. And Yeah. It's just like it's just like you used to be able to actually buy and mine it directly on Bitmain's website. You know, it's just like you could just go there and get one one day, and then they ship it to you. And now
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:13:09 PM
Duration: 9337.652
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:00.740
2
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I think within the firm, probably more so than than many others.
3
00:00:05.920 --> 00:00:14.985
Where do you see that now? We talked about what what El Salvador did this week, but it it speaks to all the issues that you're dealing with here, which is which is what are real rates,
4
00:00:15.525 --> 00:00:17.065
what's the value of money?
5
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:24.500
6
00:00:24.915 --> 00:00:32.375
you know, people describe it as a hedge or an alternative. I'm not sure it's a really great hedge. I mean, the correlation to equities, the correlation to risk assets,
7
00:00:32.910 --> 00:00:54.780
I'm not sure it's a great hedge, by the way. So when an asset moves 10 to 15% a day, really hard to hedge big organic asset pools with that as a hedge. Is it, you know, is it an alternative currency? Listen. I've said and I've said and I've said it with with you, Andrew. Listen. Part of why I own a small piece of Bitcoin is I do think there are more people that are gonna enter that fray over time. We have a very moderate
8
00:00:55.160 --> 00:00:56.379
position in our portfolio.
9
00:00:56.680 --> 00:00:59.785
I like, quite frankly, are volatile that have upside convexity,
10
00:01:00.425 --> 00:01:03.725
And I could see Bitcoin like it's done. I could see it go up significantly.
11
00:01:04.104 --> 00:01:17.469
But listen, I think it's volatile. I don't think it's a core asset class like like bonds are or like stocks are. But I think it's you know, to have a bit as more of a speculative tool in a portfolio, yeah, I think I think there's some value to that. Before I let
12
00:01:54.395 --> 00:02:00.015
13
00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:05.640
the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
14
00:02:06.580 --> 00:02:13.295
We got a great show lined up here. I'm very excited for it. To the freaks that are joining us after the fact through the audio,
15
00:02:13.595 --> 00:02:15.055
that was, Rick Ryder,
16
00:02:16.475 --> 00:02:17.295
on CNBC.
17
00:02:17.595 --> 00:02:20.320
He's a managing director of BlackRock. They have $2,400,000,000,000
18
00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:22.880
worth of assets under management,
19
00:02:24.620 --> 00:02:26.400
and he likes to dabble in Bitcoin.
20
00:02:27.745 --> 00:02:30.005
This is Citadel dispatch 38.
21
00:02:30.385 --> 00:02:33.525
The focus will be on mining and improving your mining setup.
22
00:02:33.905 --> 00:02:37.110
This is a natural follow-up to Citadel dispatch 31,
23
00:02:37.410 --> 00:02:39.590
which you can find citadel dispatch.com/cd31,
24
00:02:42.209 --> 00:02:44.550
which was our first, mining focused
25
00:02:44.930 --> 00:02:45.430
panel.
26
00:02:46.765 --> 00:02:51.185
And this one is is is basically gonna be improving your setup from there.
27
00:02:51.645 --> 00:02:56.120
So we won't start with the basics. We're gonna go from basically where that left off.
28
00:02:56.659 --> 00:02:57.799
Before we get started,
29
00:02:58.340 --> 00:03:03.879
huge shout out as always to the ride or dive freaks in the live chat, whether that's through Twitch, YouTube, or Twitter.
30
00:03:04.225 --> 00:03:12.485
You guys make this show special. You guys make Bitcoin Tuesday special, so thank you again for joining us. And, also, shout out to all the freaks who support the show.
31
00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:16.760
Keep it ad free and sponsor free. I appreciate you guys tremendously.
32
00:03:18.660 --> 00:03:21.000
Really thank you for the support. It means a lot.
33
00:03:22.185 --> 00:03:25.645
So let's just dive into this. I mean, I we got a massive panel here.
34
00:03:26.265 --> 00:03:33.950
I couldn't help myself. We just got so many great voices in Bitcoin mining that were willing to join us for this conversation, so I couldn't say no.
35
00:03:35.855 --> 00:03:36.995
First and foremost,
36
00:03:37.295 --> 00:03:38.435
we have Big Kahuna.
37
00:03:39.614 --> 00:03:44.194
We have we have we actually have 2 guys from brains. We have Big Kahuna. How's it going, Big Kahuna?
38
00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:45.820
39
00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:47.900
40
00:03:49.880 --> 00:03:51.100
man of many hats.
41
00:03:51.720 --> 00:03:52.780
We have Jonathan,
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coin heated.
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Hello. Big focus on immersion mining. How's it going, Jonathan?
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man behind Great American Mining. How's it going, Marty?
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We also have Jan, cofounder of Brains. How's it going, Jan?
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How's it going, Brett?
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Ronan Miner. He's a return guest. He was on CITL dispatch 31.
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He's probably, like, 3 claws deep. How's it going, Neil?
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Did I nail it? Are you 3 claws deep? Nailed it. There we go. There we go.
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upgrading your firmware,
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specifically to brains OS. That's why we got 2 brains guys here,
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and also immersion mining, which is, you know, putting your miners,
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liquid cooling them instead of air cooling them.
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But we will also be talking about all things mining.
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Feel free to put your questions,
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in the live chat as always if you'd like to get them answered. If we don't answer them right away, I will be writing down any ones that are good, and we'll come back to them.
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With all that said, I think Big Kuna wants to start us off with some history. So why don't we start there?
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Anyways, Yeah. So, Matt, you you like to talk a lot about how you you buy phones and flash your own custom firmware on that. And I think that's that's very,
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you know, very useful when you when you think about firmware for,
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miners. Because you you you buy these phones, and you own all the rights to them. You can do whatever you want with them. You can
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run them over with your truck if you want to.
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I guess the only thing you sacrifice,
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when you flash custom firmware on there is that you might void the warranty. But but for all
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purposes, you you own everything about that phone. And the same thing is the same thing goes for these mining hardware,
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that you buy from from all these manufacturers.
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You buy the hardware and it's shipped to you, and you you're kinda just forced to trust that what's on there is
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is sufficient. What what they what firmware they put on there is trustworthy, and,
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they're not doing anything sketchy with that.
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And so,
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I mean, that kinda goes with the ethos of Bitcoin where, you know, we're we're supposed to validate our own keys, our private keys,
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run our own nodes so that we can make sure
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no one's screwing us over,
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you know, don't trust verify. And that there should be an option with that with miners as
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well.
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And for the longest time when these ASICs started coming out, there really wasn't an option for that,
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until
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I guess there was 2 instances where
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these manufacturers
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kind of breached the trust of their customers.
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There was something called Amplead that came out with one of the manufacturers. And
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if you guys don't know what Amplead is, what this is is,
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it it was
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it was,
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it was found out that
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one of the manufacturers had a backdoor in
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in their firmware, and what this allowed them to do was pretty much anything. They could they could access your
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hardware remotely and shut it off,
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redirect the hash. They could they could do all this nefarious stuff with that. And
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that's absolutely terrifying because when ASICs first came out, there really was not many
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there wasn't any competition out there. So they they really cornered the market. They they could have,
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you know, they could have,
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really hurt the
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the integrity of the Bitcoin network,
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not just from the miners,
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but, you know, all the users as well. If if they were to implement anything or do anything nefarious with that backdoor, then that really would have screwed over the entire network.
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Probably would have set us back a few years.
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So that that's kind of the first instance. The other one was Cover Basicboost.
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The same manufacturer,
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well,
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essentially, what what happened was 2 researchers
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found that there was a way to
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restructure, do something fancy with the block header to improve the efficiency of
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mining chips.
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And,
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it was it was suspected that the manufacturer
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had implemented this in their chips,
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and we found or, yeah, we found out that,
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they were using this at home, but when they shipped the product out to their customers,
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they would retract this. They would they would use ASIC Boost for themselves, and then they would eliminate it when they sold it to their customers so that they always had a competitive edge,
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versus the the rest of the network.
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So those are just like 2 real life stories of things that have happened with these these hardwares
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that, you know, really made it necessary to have an open source firmware,
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or have other
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competition out there. And when you look at the the
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the market today, you have a couple different manufacturers that are all competing with each other, challenging each other, making each other better. And now you have,
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know, custom firmware like Brains OS where
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you can take this hardware, flash your own firmware on it, and
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you get a lot of pros out of doing that. There are some cons, but it's mostly pros.
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And this this also adds just more and more competition to
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these these hardware manufacturers to improve their setup and whatnot.
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That that was kind of the history lesson I wanted to go through because I think that's a really great introduction for this conversation as we go into
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some of the pros and cons of this stuff and how
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how custom firmware can improve your setup.
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Both both of those,
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were Bitmain focused,
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Ampliad and Covert ASIC Boost.
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Is that part of the reason why your firmware currently only supports,
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Bitmain, ASICs, and not Whatsminer?
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Is that why the focus started there?
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we saw that the most popular miner out there is s nine. And it was actually
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at that time, it was still possible to download the CG minor sources that,
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supported,
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s nines without basic boost, and we could have based our firmware off of this,
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providing the rest of the operating system,
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from
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general open source.
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So that that was the beginning of the story. But I think the manufacturer, with with time, realized that they can tighten the screws a bit more. And I think with the upcoming generations,
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I can't tell exactly,
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which version. But I think the s nine was really the very last one where you could download bits and pieces of the of the source code. And if you had enough engineering skills, so it was not like
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a simple job of just executing a single script that you would have an image that you can run on your own,
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you would be able to have your own firmware for for the s nines at that time, which I found
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it's okay. But at the same time, it's kind of already a violation of the GPL
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11, s s 15, they they didn't even bother to publish, a single piece. But, I mean, I didn't ex I didn't,
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do the research at that time because we skipped these generations because they I think they released only,
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small batches of of machines. And the next major
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generation, which was which was not very successful, will be was the,
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or the x x seventeens,
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where this was the case. Just just you would get, like, nothing about about the machine that that you
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bought. And now with the X nineteens, it's it's getting even worse where, there's a new super great feature called, Secure Boot,
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which pretty much
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prevents,
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running, an alternative firmware in a standard way because the the the whole boot chain from from the ROM folder is, secured. So it does an RSA,
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key check. And you can tell that that man is currently not really willing to sign, 3rd party firmwares.
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did you figure out a way around it?
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we we have a way around it, but,
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the problem is, that it is a hassle. Right? You you buy a machine that you think you own it, so you think you can do anything you want with it like you do with your cell phone. But that's not the case anymore.
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You have a a bunch of alternatives. You can swap out the control boards because, for example, the control boards on x nineteens are the same as on x seventeens.
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So if you're lucky, you can just switch it. But but if you're a big farm with a lot of machines, this is a costly operation. You can exchange the the CPU on the control board,
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because this one is unusable. It has the OTP,
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one time programmable,
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registers or fuses. That's what they they're called eFuse. They are burned basically,
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saying this is the public key that needs to be used in order to boot the next stage bootloader,
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and that pretty much
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is game over for for booting something alternative on the original control board.
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So
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your mileage may vary depending on, like, how much,
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effort you you put out in order to to run alternative firmware.
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when what's minor?
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so
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so the current roadmap is that we have a
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a private, beta testing of X19, and what comes after that are the Whatsminers.
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The Whatsminers are already being tested. So it's not that that you're starting the implementation, the What's Miners are, in the test process.
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so there's 2 versions of brains OS.
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Are are what's the difference? Are are they both open source, or is only the basic one open source?
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called auto tuning. And auto tuning is is kind of the way that we make a little bit of money off this.
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What it does is it takes every single chip on each of the hashboards and optimizes the,
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the performance that you get out of those. So you imagine you buy a miner from a manufacturer,
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and they wanna sell it as a,
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you know, as a specific number. You know, you get an s nine. It get at 1400 watts. It gives you 13.5 terahash.
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But if you take and you tune each of the the chips on there, you can gain, like, you know, point 1, point 2 percent efficiencies out of every single one. And since there's hundreds of chips in there,
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you you can geek out up to, like, 25% efficiency gains. So that that auto tuning feature
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is the the only thing that isn't open source.
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or the the closed source version works
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is we're due a 2% fee. So your hash just gets donated to us as a dev fee.
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And it's kind of a win win because you get up to a 25% efficiency gain,
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which will cover that cost,
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but then
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but then we're also making a little bit more because that 2% is is a larger piece of pie.
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And then
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if you use slash pool on top of that, then we waive the pool fee. So,
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in most cases, you're getting the same exact fee,
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overall, but a higher performance.
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So you just answered my next question. You don't have to use slush pool? You do not have to use slush pool. But if you don't, then you will also be charged the fee of the,
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the pool, which is not a lot, but it's, you know, it's incentive to to work with us. And why not use the best pool available?
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Obviously.
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Brains.
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I mean, I always had brains OS
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on my s nines.
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And,
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I mean, the efficiency gains or at least the Terahash gains, I guess, I didn't monitor the efficiency that well, but the Terahash gains were insane.
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Easily 25%.
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and then got brains loaded on there. And,
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with the exception of best 19s I have, I run nothing but brain stuff.
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Basically, same thing with us. Like,
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I actually,
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like,
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constantly am shilling brains OS because I I love the firmware. Ever since
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I found out about brains OS plus, I it's basically just been, like, if we can get miners that can support brains OS plus, we should be running them all the time because the efficiency gains are awesome. The overall terahash gains are awesome. And for us in the specific,
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in the specific way that we're doing things as in, like, putting out, putting out basically data centers for clients,
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We also need to be able to change the wattage on each and every single one of these units. So we can have units that range anywhere from, like, 90 kilowatts
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up to almost a megawatt.
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And so
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if if we're, say, running too
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hot or we're using up too much power off the engine, we the nice thing about BrainOS is we just pick a wattage, we drop every minor down to that wattage,
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and we're good to go. Like, we can we can reduce load on everything which makes it really nice.
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what, like, a half or a third of stock and well beyond,
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that range to work with is just awesome.
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that you're extending the the life time of the hardware, like, s nines, I think I think brains actually did some nonce,
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data
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scouring and found that somewhat something like 25% of network hash rate still s nines. Like, how much,
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how many of those machines are still running because they're running running brains which makes them, still profitable.
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That's, like, another interesting
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exclusively run Whatsminer?
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Bitmain. I mean, we did have a a chunk of Bitmain s nines, and
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when we ran those when we tested those, I believe we ran brains on those as well.
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But right now, yeah, we're just
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all of our containers are are packed with what's minors as of right now.
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Are Yeah. Are you purely Bitmain?
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unless, like, a client says, hey. We have our own miners or we want this specifically.
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We just say, like, get us nines because, again, you're running on free power. There's no point in running, like, a brand new, s 19, and this is what I tell people. It's like, why would you buy a brand new, like, 10, $15,000
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computer and then put it out in a dirty, dusty, like, hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere and get it wrecked? Like, there's just no point.
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So, if you throw in an oil tank first, then then,
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but, we'll we'll get to that.
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or I don't know if it was even an argument or if it was just people shouting on Twitter, but,
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they were thinking that
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the brains OS
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was burning up their hashing boards,
277
00:21:48.270 --> 00:21:54.530
or, like or or there was too much power going to them or something. People were claiming that for a little while. I don't know if it was a
278
00:21:56.174 --> 00:21:57.795
they were overclocking them
279
00:21:58.174 --> 00:22:02.320
or I don't I'm I actually I'm I'm authentically curious about
280
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:04.980
Git. Did you ever see that?
281
00:22:05.919 --> 00:22:12.235
282
00:22:12.535 --> 00:22:17.275
or Antminer's stock firmware, you're very limited to use it how they want you to use it.
283
00:22:18.055 --> 00:22:21.355
And with when you use a custom firmware like brands, you
284
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:26.700
you do get to unlock a lot of potential in the miners, and that does allow you to overclock, underclock,
285
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:38.115
mess with the the temperature settings and everything. And and I'm sure John can talk in in great depth about this, but I think that there are cases where people do hurt their own machines.
286
00:22:39.340 --> 00:22:41.920
But by default, it's set up to be,
287
00:22:42.220 --> 00:22:45.680
you know, very safe, and then it's kinda at your own risk to
288
00:22:46.085 --> 00:22:55.270
289
00:22:55.570 --> 00:23:00.130
with my any of the s nines that I was running it on, I never had problems with it. But,
290
00:23:01.284 --> 00:23:34.919
291
00:23:35.515 --> 00:23:39.054
brings west stays the most efficient around 900 to 1200
292
00:23:39.355 --> 00:23:45.649
watts, which is actually lower than, like, what Bitmain would initially put in. I think they put in something like 1300.
293
00:23:46.669 --> 00:23:53.250
And so, again, Jan Capek, from brains might have to speak more on this because I think he knows more about this than I do.
294
00:23:53.815 --> 00:23:59.515
But I think it's really just based on people making their own decisions with their chips, and they you have to be smart about it. Right?
295
00:24:00.375 --> 00:24:01.355
296
00:24:02.190 --> 00:24:07.250
So I I've taken an s nine with brains in oil up to 24 100 watts,
297
00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:09.889
you know, and you could never do that on on
298
00:24:10.445 --> 00:24:13.025
what 1 on software and 2 on air.
299
00:24:13.965 --> 00:24:23.240
You know, you have to disable the stuff. And if you do that, if you uncheck the disables, uncheck this, and and, you know, of course, you you can push it well beyond to the point of buying it.
300
00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:25.379
And if you go beyond the
301
00:24:26.179 --> 00:24:28.360
yeah. If if you go beyond the stock limitations,
302
00:24:28.695 --> 00:24:32.554
then you're into a territory of it was wasn't designed for that specifically,
303
00:24:33.335 --> 00:24:34.154
it might happen.
304
00:24:35.174 --> 00:24:38.315
305
00:24:38.820 --> 00:24:39.460
306
00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:42.280
I wanna say it was 20 something.
307
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:43.720
It was ridiculous.
308
00:24:44.340 --> 00:24:51.195
And and I ran it for a couple days that way. It was just plugging along at 24100. It was the most I could set it to in brains at the time, I think.
309
00:24:51.655 --> 00:24:52.475
Oh my god.
310
00:24:52.855 --> 00:24:54.315
And I did a s 17.
311
00:24:55.860 --> 00:24:57.080
So I used a stock,
312
00:24:57.780 --> 00:25:09.985
313
00:25:10.365 --> 00:25:11.985
314
00:25:12.700 --> 00:25:16.080
stock for 3 cards is around it's I think it's 3,040
315
00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:16.960
watts.
316
00:25:17.500 --> 00:25:20.480
And so the specific one I had was a 76
317
00:25:20.780 --> 00:25:21.280
t,
318
00:25:23.075 --> 00:25:27.174
and so that that would be static. So it's about a 1000 watts per card,
319
00:25:28.914 --> 00:25:29.975
and about 25
320
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:32.100
terash per
321
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.540
per card.
322
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:39.860
So I decided, like, you know what? I wanna see what these things can really do. And so in a in a isolated
323
00:25:41.105 --> 00:25:46.405
tank, I I I put 1 miner in a in an oil tank and on its own radiator
324
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:49.880
and disabled one card because, brains will
325
00:25:51.240 --> 00:26:00.405
you you get a maximum power total, and then it divides it across the 3 cards. So I just kept running it up and up and up, and I ended up getting to 4850,
326
00:26:01.745 --> 00:26:05.990
which I think it divided it up then into like 1600 some odd lots
327
00:26:06.390 --> 00:26:07.130
per card,
328
00:26:07.910 --> 00:26:09.929
and I ended up at,
329
00:26:11.910 --> 00:26:13.050
it was like 30
330
00:26:14.275 --> 00:26:14.775
38
331
00:26:15.475 --> 00:26:20.215
tera hash per card. If it was all 4 cards, it would have been a 104 tera hash.
332
00:26:21.090 --> 00:26:23.350
So it was almost a 50% increase.
333
00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:29.350
I don't have an s 17. That's insane. Yeah. I have an s 17. And I think there was still room to go, but,
334
00:26:29.775 --> 00:26:38.480
with 2 cars power that gets close, you know, that was like a 33 100 watts, which is beyond the stock limit of the of that power supply. So
335
00:26:38.780 --> 00:26:44.320
and I I tried it with even just a single card and I didn't get it much further past that. I think I got to,
336
00:26:45.285 --> 00:26:52.825
well, end up 5,000 is where the brains is caps. And I'm sure it's just a logical barrier, not a technical barrier.
337
00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:57.470
So people don't die and do an air cooled and put it to 5,000 watts
338
00:26:57.770 --> 00:27:01.565
and cry when their miner catches fire. Or their house catches
339
00:27:01.945 --> 00:27:03.485
340
00:27:03.945 --> 00:27:07.565
341
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.900
the the current limits on the next gen machines, even starting with x seventeens,
342
00:27:13.280 --> 00:27:16.500
I want to say that the x seventeens, when they're immersed and
343
00:27:16.855 --> 00:27:17.355
never
344
00:27:17.895 --> 00:27:21.275
run, on air cooling, then they behave
345
00:27:21.655 --> 00:27:26.510
quite well because they don't disorder. But they must have never been run with air cooling.
346
00:27:27.050 --> 00:27:28.510
Then you can get really,
347
00:27:28.970 --> 00:27:30.590
good numbers like you mentioned.
348
00:27:31.050 --> 00:27:33.710
And I think it is possible to go even beyond.
349
00:27:35.585 --> 00:27:37.925
We have raised the the frequency limits,
350
00:27:38.385 --> 00:27:41.285
a bit, with the upcoming release again.
351
00:27:42.679 --> 00:27:45.580
So the only limitation is really how are you gonna,
352
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:55.894
allocate your hash boards. And one idea that I had is basically just start taking out harvesting the 3rd card and basically building a spare miner in the container.
353
00:27:56.674 --> 00:28:02.200
So basically, every every 2 miners, you get another miner. You just need an extra power supply and a control board.
354
00:28:04.340 --> 00:28:04.840
Yeah.
355
00:28:06.340 --> 00:28:11.375
356
00:28:12.235 --> 00:28:14.654
that's something that I mean, I I
357
00:28:15.115 --> 00:28:16.315
358
00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:25.630
we're testing a lot with immersion, and I found it, very logical if we we don't have a large, facility for mining ourselves because
359
00:28:26.065 --> 00:28:33.284
writing the firmware is slightly different sport than running, like, big mining. But we have some testing facility.
360
00:28:34.320 --> 00:28:45.665
And this is what we do when when we wanna test the the maximum limits. I mean, never count on 3 cards. But I mentioned it to one of our customers, and they were kind of, like, surprised saying, oh, well, that's interesting.
361
00:28:45.965 --> 00:28:54.179
We never thought about this. But I think it's an economical way how to scale your operation. Because if if, the efficiency numbers work out for you,
362
00:28:56.100 --> 00:28:58.980
it is expected that you will not be running at,
363
00:28:59.540 --> 00:29:00.040
38
364
00:29:00.635 --> 00:29:04.815
joules per tera hash. That's not gonna happen. But you'll probably land,
365
00:29:05.275 --> 00:29:07.695
somewhere around 40, 44, 45.
366
00:29:09.179 --> 00:29:13.440
And that is, I think, considering the the current difficulty and
367
00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:14.880
exchange rate,
368
00:29:16.015 --> 00:29:25.910
most operations would be profitable. And what matters is to get as as many coins as possible. Right? Do you do you have any subways over there? You can expand your operation.
369
00:29:27.650 --> 00:29:28.950
370
00:29:32.770 --> 00:29:33.270
371
00:29:34.435 --> 00:29:37.655
372
00:29:38.835 --> 00:29:39.335
373
00:29:40.035 --> 00:29:42.490
I don't think there's just one somewhere in Prague, I think.
374
00:29:43.850 --> 00:29:45.630
I should check if it's still open.
375
00:29:46.330 --> 00:29:49.950
376
00:29:50.595 --> 00:29:52.195
for for the listeners, the
377
00:29:54.355 --> 00:29:58.290
you've heard a lot of bad things about these s seventeens and them just failing,
378
00:29:58.750 --> 00:30:00.850
you know, them being an unreliable hardware.
379
00:30:01.710 --> 00:30:12.165
And we're kinda to a point where if if the hardware has already failed, it's, you know, it's it's gone. But the the main issue was that when they designed it, they just didn't design it to cool well enough. So,
380
00:30:13.025 --> 00:30:13.685
you know,
381
00:30:14.030 --> 00:30:15.250
Jonathan's been able
382
00:30:15.550 --> 00:30:17.890
to fix a lot of this with his immersion testing,
383
00:30:18.430 --> 00:30:22.030
because that gives it, like, perfect cooling, and that that really allows you to strain the,
384
00:30:23.505 --> 00:30:26.405
strain the setup. Yeah. Matt just pulled up a video of of
385
00:30:27.265 --> 00:30:30.005
Jonathan's garage if you wanted to talk through it or something.
386
00:30:30.309 --> 00:30:33.769
387
00:30:34.070 --> 00:30:43.015
Actually, with there's 1 s 19 in there. That's the one that's at an angle. I just kinda threw that in there to test some other stuff with. But, right now they're all s seventeens in oil.
388
00:30:44.995 --> 00:30:46.935
But what I've found too is that
389
00:30:47.330 --> 00:30:51.170
the s seventeens have actually been very reliable for me.
390
00:30:51.970 --> 00:30:57.335
Now I also have this, along with them being in an oil tank, it's also connected to a 17,000
391
00:30:57.795 --> 00:30:58.295
gallon,
392
00:30:59.155 --> 00:31:00.055
water pool,
393
00:31:00.595 --> 00:31:03.095
which is actually just a swimming pool for my kids.
394
00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:04.540
And,
395
00:31:05.080 --> 00:31:07.340
in a daily 24 hour cycle,
396
00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:10.300
it only fluctuates by maybe 2 degrees.
397
00:31:11.245 --> 00:31:15.585
So it keeps very, very stable temperatures even if the outside temperature
398
00:31:16.205 --> 00:31:17.825
changes like 40 degrees.
399
00:31:19.770 --> 00:31:22.429
So these ones actually still have fans on right there.
400
00:31:23.610 --> 00:31:26.225
There's fans on the backside that kinda help with the flow.
401
00:31:26.705 --> 00:31:30.885
And some people are you, oh, you can't have fans, can't you gotta take them off. Like, well,
402
00:31:31.505 --> 00:31:33.125
these are the the
403
00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:34.290
the tanks.
404
00:31:34.670 --> 00:31:40.050
This one here, there's 5 of them. There's no fans in that. That one runs about a 135 degrees Fahrenheit.
405
00:31:40.430 --> 00:31:42.690
The ones with fans run at 120.
406
00:31:43.205 --> 00:31:47.205
Everything else is the same. Of course, it's 5 minors instead of 4, but,
407
00:31:48.885 --> 00:31:53.900
but, yeah, I actually haven't had any problems with fans, running in oil specifically.
408
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.100
409
00:31:57.560 --> 00:32:06.865
we forgot to say this earlier, but just quickly. When he says that he had an s nine running at 20 terahashes per second, just to illustrate how ridiculous that is,
410
00:32:07.725 --> 00:32:12.500
normally, bit main s nines run at about 13 and a half. So that's like a 70%
411
00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:15.940
increase in hash rate from running this thing in oil.
412
00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:17.460
Like, that's insane.
413
00:32:18.215 --> 00:32:21.195
414
00:32:21.815 --> 00:32:23.115
frequency is 550
415
00:32:23.655 --> 00:32:27.960
megahertz, if I remember right. And I know for sure it was
416
00:32:28.760 --> 00:32:29.580
it was like
417
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:31.659
950 something megahertz.
418
00:32:32.679 --> 00:32:39.075
So, I mean, yeah, it was a lot. It was like almost a 100% increase in in clock speed.
419
00:32:40.095 --> 00:32:44.275
420
00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:45.350
he didn't.
421
00:32:46.370 --> 00:32:56.085
422
00:32:58.165 --> 00:33:00.345
423
00:33:01.110 --> 00:33:03.850
it slows the fans down so much that
424
00:33:04.710 --> 00:33:06.810
not only are they not making a gigantic
425
00:33:08.184 --> 00:33:12.445
disturbance in the in the fluid or cavitation or anything like that
426
00:33:14.425 --> 00:33:23.630
that just because the machine was cool enough to slow the fans down, that it really wasn't actually even a much larger power draw than just not having fans at all?
427
00:33:24.735 --> 00:33:28.995
428
00:33:29.935 --> 00:33:30.755
You know, there's
429
00:33:31.535 --> 00:33:32.035
the
430
00:33:32.415 --> 00:33:33.715
the main running,
431
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:38.940
quote, right way to do it is to have it vertical,
432
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:45.005
and then to have the oil flow from the bottom up, and then over a lip into overflow.
433
00:33:47.385 --> 00:33:52.240
But I've been running it both ways. I've been running an overflow one. I've been running one vertical. I've been
434
00:33:52.800 --> 00:33:55.220
I've run pretty much just about every possible
435
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.420
configuration in a single tank that you could do.
436
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.059
4 fans, 2 fans, 1 fan.
437
00:34:01.885 --> 00:34:04.385
Even with one fan from an an s 17,
438
00:34:04.924 --> 00:34:06.365
it still actually runs
439
00:34:06.845 --> 00:34:08.065
keeps it cool enough
440
00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:11.240
being horizontal like your standard,
441
00:34:12.020 --> 00:34:15.640
that it would be it it doesn't overheat, and it's just wild.
442
00:34:16.895 --> 00:34:18.835
I'm actually working with some fan manufacturers
443
00:34:19.135 --> 00:34:20.595
to see if I can get them
444
00:34:20.895 --> 00:34:25.220
to send me an STL file with fan blades, and have somebody modify that,
445
00:34:25.700 --> 00:34:30.440
fan blade, and actually make a fan design for in oil use.
446
00:34:31.060 --> 00:34:33.240
So it would be useless in air,
447
00:34:33.725 --> 00:34:34.785
but it would actually
448
00:34:35.165 --> 00:34:43.420
449
00:34:44.200 --> 00:34:44.700
than
450
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:48.780
the resistance that you need in air to push all that airflow.
451
00:34:49.155 --> 00:34:50.455
And then you could
452
00:34:50.755 --> 00:34:51.255
circumnavigate
453
00:34:51.715 --> 00:34:52.675
the the,
454
00:34:53.795 --> 00:34:56.935
because otherwise otherwise, if you take the fans off, you're gonna need
455
00:34:57.940 --> 00:34:58.760
fan spoofers.
456
00:35:00.180 --> 00:35:01.180
And Right.
457
00:35:01.620 --> 00:35:02.440
Those are
458
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:03.320
unreliable
459
00:35:03.620 --> 00:35:08.815
at best. I mean, you got you got some good ones for the s nineteens, but it sounds like the ones for
460
00:35:09.355 --> 00:35:11.214
anything what's minor is kinda
461
00:35:11.890 --> 00:35:15.110
462
00:35:15.650 --> 00:35:24.175
fan spoofers. When you when you have stock firmware on some of these hardwares, you cannot disable the fans. If you unplug them or tamper with them, they will not work.
463
00:35:24.875 --> 00:35:30.810
So a a benefit of having, like, a custom firmware is that you can you can just check a box disable them,
464
00:35:31.670 --> 00:35:32.810
which allows you
465
00:35:33.190 --> 00:35:39.815
to, out of the box, use use immersion cooling. And people sell these things called fan spoofers. They look like
466
00:35:40.454 --> 00:35:43.515
like, you know, something you just plug into the fan. Almost.
467
00:35:43.974 --> 00:35:47.515
468
00:35:47.815 --> 00:35:50.200
469
00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:54.120
470
00:35:54.740 --> 00:35:55.720
gets the the,
471
00:35:56.180 --> 00:35:56.680
PWM
472
00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:58.040
sense from
473
00:35:58.505 --> 00:36:01.005
the control board and sends back attack
474
00:36:01.625 --> 00:36:07.805
reply back to the miner saying, yeah. I'm going the speed that you want me to go at when there's really no fan at all.
475
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:12.619
But the downside of running a fan simulator
476
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:13.819
is that,
477
00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:16.059
what I found in oil is that,
478
00:36:17.855 --> 00:36:23.075
you know, so far, I've actually found it beneficial to have some fan on there even at a very low RPM.
479
00:36:25.010 --> 00:36:32.950
Just to have a little bit extra flow going over the heat sinks themselves rather than allowing the just the heat to rise with a a slow flow.
480
00:36:34.635 --> 00:36:38.895
481
00:36:39.355 --> 00:36:42.990
482
00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:49.710
work? Well, I just plugged it into a a drill press and for the wood chisel, tried it and so
483
00:36:50.525 --> 00:37:03.100
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. I was I was thinking rather than the No. But like I said, I'm gonna see about actually getting an STL file and having a fan blade designed from ground up specifically for oil,
484
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:05.420
then it would actually put a
485
00:37:05.975 --> 00:37:06.935
reasonable RPM back.
486
00:37:08.855 --> 00:37:09.655
I know we had that,
487
00:37:10.215 --> 00:37:14.635
graphic up a little bit ago showing the the s seventeen that I super overclocked.
488
00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:23.530
But even in brain yeah. Here we go. So even so this is this is the s 17 that I over or s 17 plus, excuse me.
489
00:37:23.875 --> 00:37:29.415
So this is a 76 t machine. So normally, the cards would run at 24
490
00:37:29.795 --> 00:37:30.295
terahash,
491
00:37:31.130 --> 00:37:32.270
or it's you 25,
492
00:37:33.050 --> 00:37:34.510
like, 0.3, I suppose.
493
00:37:35.450 --> 00:37:38.510
And the power limit stock is about 3,000.
494
00:37:40.025 --> 00:37:42.205
And the recommended for brains is
495
00:37:42.505 --> 00:37:43.005
2.728.
496
00:37:45.945 --> 00:37:48.960
So, yeah. And this is with one card. So we can see,
497
00:37:50.220 --> 00:37:50.720
it's
498
00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:51.599
nearly
499
00:37:52.300 --> 00:37:53.920
double the output.
500
00:37:55.405 --> 00:37:58.224
But we have a a fan speed of a 100%, but I'm getting
501
00:37:58.605 --> 00:38:00.224
nothing reported on RPM,
502
00:38:00.605 --> 00:38:06.130
because it's actually below 300 RPM, and that's the lowest I've ever seen it register,
503
00:38:06.990 --> 00:38:09.650
in brains is and and still have an RPM.
504
00:38:10.750 --> 00:38:14.295
And I don't know. This would be a great question for Young, is if,
505
00:38:16.135 --> 00:38:17.195
that's a
506
00:38:18.055 --> 00:38:20.790
hardware thing that the hardware sensor can't
507
00:38:21.350 --> 00:38:26.410
detect below that, or if that's more of a brain thing that just below 300, it ignores it.
508
00:38:29.795 --> 00:38:31.075
509
00:38:31.475 --> 00:38:44.290
our FPGA developer. I think there is some filter on on that, but I I don't know from top of my head really what the what the lowest limit is. I would expect that 300 RPM and below should be measurable.
510
00:38:45.635 --> 00:38:48.695
Okay. Yeah. So I'll check. It's an interesting question.
511
00:38:49.474 --> 00:38:56.530
512
00:38:56.910 --> 00:38:57.410
in
513
00:38:58.030 --> 00:38:59.329
in oil, it's perfect.
514
00:39:00.030 --> 00:39:00.770
515
00:39:01.390 --> 00:39:02.555
horizontal, though. Right?
516
00:39:03.595 --> 00:39:07.855
517
00:39:08.155 --> 00:39:09.295
for the position.
518
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:14.480
Without fans, it turns 90 degrees and it's facing upward instead
519
00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:25.365
520
00:39:25.730 --> 00:39:26.230
the
521
00:39:26.930 --> 00:39:30.230
flow the flow of the dielectric through through the machine
522
00:39:30.530 --> 00:39:31.030
because
523
00:39:31.650 --> 00:39:33.030
we're pushing it through.
524
00:39:35.635 --> 00:39:47.030
525
00:39:48.210 --> 00:39:48.870
the miners,
526
00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:52.115
but then you're improving your airflow. I guess, do you have any comments on that
527
00:39:53.075 --> 00:39:55.175
or the liquid flow? Sorry. Yeah.
528
00:39:56.115 --> 00:39:59.494
529
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:07.420
But see what what what coin heat is doing too is it's slowing the machine itself is slowing the fan down so much that he's saving
530
00:40:08.595 --> 00:40:11.335
a percentage of the electric usage that he has.
531
00:40:12.035 --> 00:40:16.454
By us removing our fans, it saves somewhere between 10 15%
532
00:40:16.914 --> 00:40:18.220
of electric usage.
533
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.780
534
00:40:25.265 --> 00:40:30.245
Yeah. The, the the upper left tank that has 5 miners, that one is spam free.
535
00:40:31.025 --> 00:40:32.645
But so my my
536
00:40:33.070 --> 00:40:34.050
thinking in this,
537
00:40:34.430 --> 00:40:36.050
so if you have 4 fans
538
00:40:36.510 --> 00:40:37.250
per miner,
539
00:40:37.710 --> 00:40:39.970
and you have a fan that's specifically
540
00:40:40.270 --> 00:40:41.490
made for oil,
541
00:40:41.865 --> 00:40:45.645
so it can move a good amount of oil and it will actually,
542
00:40:46.265 --> 00:40:49.085
you know, do a decent job, you would not need
543
00:40:49.625 --> 00:40:50.365
a pump.
544
00:40:51.390 --> 00:40:53.970
So then you get back all the energy that you had
545
00:40:54.270 --> 00:41:00.290
pushing a pump because I mean, I don't know. The pumps I have, they're like a couple of amps at a 110 volt,
546
00:41:00.885 --> 00:41:02.905
and that's not trivial amount of power.
547
00:41:05.605 --> 00:41:11.010
And if you have if you have 5 byers in the tank, let's just say, you have 4 fans out in there per,
548
00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:18.435
the probability of all of those fans completely failing at the same time is much less than one pump failing for a whole tank.
549
00:41:24.275 --> 00:41:27.415
550
00:41:28.010 --> 00:41:29.630
forever, but I'd love to hear,
551
00:41:30.410 --> 00:41:33.310
from Brett and Marty, like, what kind of things you guys are
552
00:41:33.850 --> 00:41:34.670
are seeing,
553
00:41:34.970 --> 00:41:42.585
you know, in the different regions that you're mining in because you you you're getting cold temperatures. You're getting very hot temperatures, and I'm sure you're having to optimize,
554
00:41:44.485 --> 00:41:46.425
different features, underclocking, overclocking,
555
00:41:47.010 --> 00:41:52.390
and, you know, maybe your your air cooling versus having AC units or whatever.
556
00:41:52.930 --> 00:41:56.165
I guess, what what issues are you having on, like,
557
00:41:56.545 --> 00:41:58.965
a, like, a a big scale mining operation?
558
00:41:59.825 --> 00:42:02.885
And how are how are you solving those, or what limitations are you finding?
559
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:05.460
560
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:06.820
we're predominantly,
561
00:42:07.680 --> 00:42:08.740
in North Dakota
562
00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:13.045
and in the Bakken here in the United States. Because of the climate.
563
00:42:14.225 --> 00:42:17.205
Our engineers have just decided this is more conducive to run
564
00:42:17.665 --> 00:42:24.690
air cooled up in in those regions compared to somewhere like West Texas or or another hot region, maybe the Haynesville shale
565
00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:26.210
down in Louisiana.
566
00:42:27.630 --> 00:42:29.330
And I actually find this
567
00:42:30.305 --> 00:42:33.365
discussion about the fans very fascinating because we are designing
568
00:42:33.825 --> 00:42:40.330
an immersion cooling system at Great America Mining, and I think it's interesting for us. We have different parameters because we're very space constrained,
569
00:42:40.790 --> 00:42:43.850
since we're building these in in shipping containers. And,
570
00:42:45.105 --> 00:42:46.565
so that's, like, the number one
571
00:42:46.865 --> 00:42:47.365
sort
572
00:42:48.065 --> 00:42:51.765
of boundary and variable restriction, whatever you wanna call it, design
573
00:42:52.600 --> 00:42:53.100
parameter,
574
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:56.380
that that really comes into play with us because
575
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.380
considering how much the coolant,
576
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:05.255
cost, you have to you weigh the trade offs of the initial capital outlay and the amount of hash rate that container's
577
00:43:06.035 --> 00:43:11.080
gonna produce per square foot. And so the fans discussion is something that I I notice our engineers talk
578
00:43:13.080 --> 00:43:17.900
about a lot. Like, do we take off the fans, get more space? Is there a benefit of having them on? So these are when it comes to immersion specifically,
579
00:43:18.555 --> 00:43:24.175
these are some of the main types of things that we have to think about at Great American Mining with our container model,
580
00:43:24.635 --> 00:43:28.640
or the space constraints. And it's fascinating to hear you guys talk through all this.
581
00:43:30.540 --> 00:43:36.080
582
00:43:36.445 --> 00:43:37.665
of the firmware.
583
00:43:38.125 --> 00:43:41.585
I I guess I I'm just curious, obviously, because I'm I'm working
584
00:43:42.125 --> 00:43:48.830
for a firmware company. So I'm I'm curious how you guys work around some of the issues that you're seeing there for immersion or air cooled.
585
00:43:50.650 --> 00:43:51.230
586
00:43:52.295 --> 00:43:52.795
we,
587
00:43:54.535 --> 00:43:56.075
I mean, we use a stock firmware,
588
00:43:56.695 --> 00:43:58.715
you know, because we have to. Obviously, we're talking
589
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:03.780
closely with the brains team and others working on firmware. So we're we're getting our hands on and testing.
590
00:44:04.640 --> 00:44:05.220
I mean,
591
00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:09.855
what I could say about What's Matters, they've been beast for us. We haven't really had a problem,
592
00:44:10.635 --> 00:44:13.615
outside of not being able to to gain efficiencies and
593
00:44:13.994 --> 00:44:19.480
and stretch our hash about a bit more, via firmware up or different types of firmware.
594
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:23.000
With that being said, the machines themselves are
595
00:44:23.385 --> 00:44:27.325
are very durable from our experience. We've been using them since they,
596
00:44:28.105 --> 00:44:32.444
launched the m twenties, and and we've had m twenties in the field for
597
00:44:32.750 --> 00:44:34.210
almost 3 years now.
598
00:44:35.470 --> 00:44:44.454
I think out of one container that we first launched at a 180, I think we've only ever had one full failure in the field in these rough conditions in North Dakota.
599
00:44:44.994 --> 00:44:45.494
600
00:44:46.650 --> 00:44:47.150
And
601
00:44:47.770 --> 00:44:51.230
I have to agree. Like, we don't run a lot of Watts Miners,
602
00:44:51.770 --> 00:44:55.370
but the Watts Miners that we do run, I've had a very, very good experience with.
603
00:44:55.770 --> 00:44:59.214
Again, like, same thing that Marty was saying. They can't get,
604
00:44:59.994 --> 00:45:03.535
like, aftermarket firmware. We can't get any third party stuff on there.
605
00:45:04.050 --> 00:45:08.310
So we're basically waiting on brains OS as well. We would love to go to Watts Miners.
606
00:45:08.930 --> 00:45:10.790
The thing about Watts Miners that
607
00:45:11.224 --> 00:45:12.685
I think is a a main,
608
00:45:13.224 --> 00:45:15.964
a main selling point on them is with,
609
00:45:16.825 --> 00:45:17.645
any Bitmain
610
00:45:17.945 --> 00:45:18.445
machine,
611
00:45:19.150 --> 00:45:19.810
their boards
612
00:45:20.110 --> 00:45:20.610
have,
613
00:45:21.230 --> 00:45:30.735
one heat sink per chip. So you have a bunch of these heat sinks dotted all over the board and there's space between them. Like, there's areas where stuff can get in there.
614
00:45:31.195 --> 00:45:34.815
One of the things that I saw when taking apart Watts Miners is they have
615
00:45:35.390 --> 00:45:41.490
solid heat sinks. It's 1 piece. It covers the entire board, and they just slap on both sides of this board.
616
00:45:42.145 --> 00:45:47.444
And so that helps to keep a lot of things out. Like, we we actually had an instance because we're up in Canada,
617
00:45:48.464 --> 00:45:49.765
of of some snow
618
00:45:50.180 --> 00:45:54.840
getting in the with these Wasp Miners. I think we only had, like, one board damaged, and
619
00:45:55.380 --> 00:46:04.965
it it was crazy that these things survived the snow. Like, obviously, the power supply failed because they're not quite as secure, but the boards are amazing. The board design on Watts Minor is excellent.
620
00:46:05.825 --> 00:46:08.005
That being said, we mostly run s nines,
621
00:46:08.970 --> 00:46:17.230
mostly because of brains OS. Again, like, I've talked about this. This is a huge thing for us because brains OS is so useful for what we're doing.
622
00:46:17.765 --> 00:46:26.849
Marty has, I think, a lot bigger scale than we do. Like, it's it's easier for them to scale. They have a lot more gas access than we do. But we're trying to scale,
623
00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:29.490
sort of like to to
624
00:46:29.869 --> 00:46:31.329
to more more people,
625
00:46:32.029 --> 00:46:32.849
more decentralization
626
00:46:33.309 --> 00:46:44.490
on a smaller scale. So we're trying to put out a lot of small things whereas they're trying to put out a few big things. And the toughest part about putting out a few small things is we have to be able to regulate how much
627
00:46:46.250 --> 00:46:48.110
how much power they're actually using.
628
00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:50.430
And, I talked about this earlier.
629
00:46:51.050 --> 00:46:58.884
Having brains OS and the ability to go into a unit and say, I need to drop this by 50 watts on 64 miners for a total of,
630
00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:00.400
like, 3,200
631
00:47:00.859 --> 00:47:05.920
watts. Like, I need to drop this 3,200 watts. It's super, super nice to be able to do that.
632
00:47:07.215 --> 00:47:09.715
633
00:47:10.095 --> 00:47:12.755
Right? You so you have access to a lot of your remote.
634
00:47:13.615 --> 00:47:16.015
635
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.220
our units, we have ways to access them
636
00:47:19.680 --> 00:47:24.260
remotely. I can I can remotely access the network that is inside of each of our units?
637
00:47:24.575 --> 00:47:34.049
And so if somebody says, hey. We're having gas issues today. Like, we need you to bring it down. I can just bring it down. Or if somebody says, hey. I want this directed somewhere else. We can change
638
00:47:34.750 --> 00:47:41.809
that. Or, like, there's there's lots of different things we can do remotely, and there's so many configurations options using brains OS that we can do
639
00:47:42.115 --> 00:47:45.415
remotely either through SSH and doing it through a terminal
640
00:47:45.875 --> 00:47:49.095
or actually even through the, the web interface.
641
00:47:50.290 --> 00:47:52.230
642
00:47:53.730 --> 00:48:00.475
Like, I have I have to be on I have to be on on-site if if I want to access
643
00:48:01.095 --> 00:48:02.315
a machine itself.
644
00:48:03.095 --> 00:48:09.080
And I I kinda did that for security reasons, but I'm gonna be honest, I did that more for
645
00:48:09.380 --> 00:48:10.120
I'm incompetent
646
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:13.320
to be able to do what you just explained right
647
00:48:13.700 --> 00:48:14.760
there. It was amazing.
648
00:48:15.385 --> 00:48:23.645
649
00:48:24.110 --> 00:48:35.755
But, again, like, if you set up a login and all that stuff properly, you use secure passwords, you should be fine. I'm always happy to, like, help you out if you want to. Like, feel free to give me a PM. You have my information.
650
00:48:36.695 --> 00:48:37.195
651
00:48:37.815 --> 00:48:42.860
652
00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:46.160
and data centers and all that sort of stuff. So
653
00:48:47.100 --> 00:48:56.225
that's almost not even relevant to to minors exactly, because I mean, you could have a a data center of, you know, regular servers and getting that remote access is
654
00:48:56.605 --> 00:49:01.240
is, you know, or once you get into the site, which would, you know, in in your case, just be a
655
00:49:01.720 --> 00:49:10.865
a shipping container or a hash out or whatever it is, you get into that and you can get into the web interface of the other miners, and it's not it's not too bad.
656
00:49:11.744 --> 00:49:13.925
Or you can just open up Telnet to the whole world.
657
00:49:15.585 --> 00:49:17.605
658
00:49:18.305 --> 00:49:24.970
659
00:49:26.405 --> 00:49:31.385
If you're, you know, you're trying to do this at any scale. And it is crazy the
660
00:49:32.005 --> 00:49:34.425
how simple you can make the stack if need be.
661
00:49:35.230 --> 00:49:37.970
If you're especially if you're sorry. My son's in the back.
662
00:49:38.829 --> 00:49:43.890
Especially if you're, like, designing your own power distribution units, you have control over that. And
663
00:49:44.405 --> 00:49:45.464
with What's Miners
664
00:49:46.165 --> 00:49:47.785
specifically, like, we've been able to really
665
00:49:48.325 --> 00:49:48.825
granularly,
666
00:49:49.765 --> 00:49:55.319
control them remotely just because of the the API that they have. And you can build on that pretty robustly.
667
00:49:59.140 --> 00:50:02.900
668
00:50:03.685 --> 00:50:04.505
speaking of
669
00:50:04.805 --> 00:50:05.125
of,
670
00:50:05.605 --> 00:50:06.744
API and stuff.
671
00:50:08.485 --> 00:50:18.090
With with brains OS, I found it really, really easy, like and there's a lot of documentation on this. I've actually found that it it's easier to read the brains west API documentation than CGminer.
672
00:50:19.430 --> 00:50:24.275
And so for those of you who don't know what an API is, in in in this context,
673
00:50:24.734 --> 00:50:30.035
an API is an application programming interface. It's something coders use to kinda access
674
00:50:31.300 --> 00:50:33.560
data and stuff about different systems.
675
00:50:34.180 --> 00:50:34.920
And so,
676
00:50:36.100 --> 00:50:40.795
in the case of brains OS, the Bossminer API, because Bossminer is their back end,
677
00:50:41.415 --> 00:50:50.180
can be used to get all sorts of data, hash rate data, fan data, heat data, pool data, you can change pool information, all sorts of stuff with that.
678
00:50:50.640 --> 00:50:51.380
And so
679
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:53.860
you can create automated systems
680
00:50:54.525 --> 00:50:58.365
that will legitimately change anything about your miner based on,
681
00:50:58.925 --> 00:51:01.645
different different things. And you could you could run a Raspberry Pi,
682
00:51:02.520 --> 00:51:14.365
just on the network with these miners and just ping them every once in a while, find the hash rate, find the temperature, whatever. And if you have to drop hash rate, like change tuning, drop temperature, increase fan speed, something like that,
683
00:51:14.744 --> 00:51:15.944
that's where you can,
684
00:51:16.665 --> 00:51:21.750
that's where you can use the API to do that. And so that's something that's really useful as well.
685
00:51:22.610 --> 00:51:27.670
686
00:51:28.425 --> 00:51:29.805
It's in the video too, but,
687
00:51:31.305 --> 00:51:32.205
it has temperatures,
688
00:51:32.745 --> 00:51:36.205
temperature probes for all the tanks, but then it also pulls,
689
00:51:37.030 --> 00:51:41.210
all the miners themselves and pulls that API information back.
690
00:51:41.910 --> 00:51:49.185
And then that brings that back into 2 TVs in my room that I can watch within 30 seconds. I know if anything's gone wrong with it.
691
00:51:49.724 --> 00:51:53.560
Let's see if I'll see if I can find the the photo of the TVs, but,
692
00:51:54.020 --> 00:51:55.560
in the video, it's just a little
693
00:51:56.100 --> 00:51:58.920
stupid yellow box, so that part's not very interesting.
694
00:51:59.685 --> 00:52:04.505
But, yeah, the the the API results from brains is awesome. And then
695
00:52:05.045 --> 00:52:10.810
further, you can you can do more where you would have that talk back and then like, oh, the tank is too hot.
696
00:52:11.910 --> 00:52:17.530
You know, the oil temperature is too hot, so let's set these miners and this tank back down more.
697
00:52:18.725 --> 00:52:24.265
698
00:52:24.725 --> 00:52:25.945
for our test bench.
699
00:52:26.930 --> 00:52:27.750
And so,
700
00:52:28.130 --> 00:52:42.744
at Upstream, we try to test every single s nine that comes through, get brains on it, get it all set up, and prepared to go in the unit. And so we have to, like, run thousands of s nines through our shop, and they all have to be tested and installed and set up.
701
00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:54.345
And so I'm actually designing a little system because we we just upgraded to kind of a new area with with more room. We used to do 4 at a time. We're moving up to something like 24 or 32 at a time.
702
00:52:55.045 --> 00:53:13.255
And so I'm designing a system that uses the API to get information on 24 or so miners at a time, and then we can just say, hey. This miner works. Pull it off. Put it on the pallet. Get a new one. This miner works. Pull it off. Pallet, get a new one, and just kinda keep the keep the system going. Make it as fast and easy as possible.
703
00:53:15.235 --> 00:53:15.735
704
00:53:16.515 --> 00:53:17.015
So,
705
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:23.100
maybe the brains guys can answer this. It was something we were talking about a little bit before we went live.
706
00:53:26.095 --> 00:53:30.115
I'm curious about when you when you shut off a minor,
707
00:53:31.910 --> 00:53:34.090
like, the fans just stop. Right?
708
00:53:34.550 --> 00:53:38.090
Is the is the the heat that's already built up
709
00:53:38.445 --> 00:53:41.425
in the minor going to be an issue for that? Like
710
00:53:42.445 --> 00:53:47.425
and then I guess I guess the reason why I was kinda directing it at the brains guys was because
711
00:53:49.170 --> 00:53:50.470
wouldn't it be advantageous
712
00:53:50.770 --> 00:53:53.350
to, like, keep the fans running for a little bit
713
00:53:53.890 --> 00:53:59.645
when you shut the minor off? I don't know if I'm taking us totally off track here. It was just something that I just was thinking about again.
714
00:54:01.944 --> 00:54:03.805
715
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:06.160
the the preheat stuff and everything?
716
00:54:07.020 --> 00:54:08.800
717
00:54:10.060 --> 00:54:12.375
Well, the preheat part is definitely
718
00:54:12.835 --> 00:54:15.255
important part of the process to get the machine,
719
00:54:17.075 --> 00:54:18.934
to run at some nominal
720
00:54:19.315 --> 00:54:21.255
speed or performance level.
721
00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:28.735
But I think you hit the nail by explaining, like, what what happens if you cut the power. Right?
722
00:54:29.055 --> 00:54:30.755
Like, shutting down the machine,
723
00:54:31.775 --> 00:54:32.275
gracefully,
724
00:54:32.975 --> 00:54:34.275
currently, what happens
725
00:54:34.735 --> 00:54:35.235
with
726
00:54:36.670 --> 00:54:38.290
with the with the current firmware,
727
00:54:38.830 --> 00:54:40.270
if you if you have,
728
00:54:40.910 --> 00:54:42.770
fan control enabled still.
729
00:54:43.150 --> 00:54:48.964
So if you shut down the machine, so that means it's, let's say, suspended. We have the spend receive feature, whatever.
730
00:54:49.265 --> 00:54:51.605
Anyhow, like, stopping those miners also.
731
00:54:51.905 --> 00:55:00.080
Well, it's, approach. Then we have a monitor that actually keeps the fans running, which some people find annoying. But at the same time, especially for the,
732
00:55:00.540 --> 00:55:01.040
X17
733
00:55:01.420 --> 00:55:03.984
family, this was critical because
734
00:55:04.444 --> 00:55:04.765
if,
735
00:55:05.565 --> 00:55:10.145
if you, like, cut off power and the and and the machine, like, stops
736
00:55:10.550 --> 00:55:13.130
running all of a sudden. The problem is that,
737
00:55:13.430 --> 00:55:15.690
because of the bad soldering on the PCBs,
738
00:55:16.950 --> 00:55:23.835
or let's say not bad soldering, but lower quality soldering that works well in immersion but not in air cooled environments,
739
00:55:25.255 --> 00:55:30.910
you have to realize that, you know, the way the heat is taken away from from the chips is
740
00:55:31.210 --> 00:55:31.710
by
741
00:55:32.650 --> 00:55:41.994
conducting the heat through the heat sinks. Right? And it works by the fact that you have a certain temperature gradient. So so the end of the heat sink has a different temperature than the chip.
742
00:55:42.315 --> 00:55:44.974
If the fan stop all of a sudden and you,
743
00:55:46.060 --> 00:55:46.560
like,
744
00:55:46.940 --> 00:55:48.880
don't generate any more power,
745
00:55:49.820 --> 00:55:55.120
by the fact that the chips are not hashing anymore, you still have a short moment of time
746
00:55:55.505 --> 00:55:58.085
where, this heat conduction process
747
00:55:58.545 --> 00:56:01.125
slows down because the the gradient just
748
00:56:01.664 --> 00:56:06.890
breaks down. There's no airflow anymore, And that could damage the PCB, but not for,
749
00:56:07.910 --> 00:56:14.685
for the new gen, for the x nineteens, nor for the s nines because they have different soldering technology. And they are much more,
750
00:56:15.465 --> 00:56:17.725
resilient to to things like this.
751
00:56:18.265 --> 00:56:26.170
So that would be for the power cutoff, and that's nothing that firmware can do because it has no power. But in terms of graceful shutdown, it's certainly a good idea,
752
00:56:26.710 --> 00:56:32.205
to have a feature like this that keeps the fence running for certain time. I kind of think about this,
753
00:56:32.845 --> 00:56:34.225
sometimes when you have turbocharged
754
00:56:34.525 --> 00:56:35.025
vehicles,
755
00:56:35.485 --> 00:56:36.305
when you,
756
00:56:36.685 --> 00:56:38.305
you know, hit the gas and,
757
00:56:39.085 --> 00:56:45.400
run the engine really hard on the highway when you park at in front of your house. Some of the manufacturers
758
00:56:45.700 --> 00:56:47.460
tell you you should keep your,
759
00:56:47.859 --> 00:56:51.595
engine running for a little bit until the blades of the turbocharger
760
00:56:52.055 --> 00:56:58.235
cool down a bit. Because if you stop it, all of a sudden, they could, like, twist or whatever by the cooling process.
761
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:01.420
So that's that's how I try to think about the this,
762
00:57:02.040 --> 00:57:04.700
physical process that could happen to the PCBs
763
00:57:05.560 --> 00:57:07.980
for the for the x 17 yuan.
764
00:57:08.359 --> 00:57:10.825
765
00:57:11.145 --> 00:57:11.625
unlike
766
00:57:11.945 --> 00:57:16.285
so the cars you're talking about, it's actually the the bearings on the turbocharger
767
00:57:16.825 --> 00:57:17.965
heat up so much.
768
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:23.140
And I think they've they've mainly we're not talk we're not here to talk about cars, but
769
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:28.100
they mainly remedied that be because they have oil cooled bearings now.
770
00:57:28.405 --> 00:57:33.865
So that saves it from that. But they it was the same concept, basically. That's what I was going for.
771
00:57:34.405 --> 00:57:39.590
772
00:57:39.970 --> 00:57:49.255
773
00:57:49.795 --> 00:57:51.735
I mean, when you're talking about
774
00:57:52.490 --> 00:57:54.109
running a 100 and 135,
775
00:57:54.650 --> 00:57:55.869
140 degrees
776
00:57:57.530 --> 00:57:58.589
Fahrenheit chips,
777
00:57:59.055 --> 00:58:01.715
like, that needs some that needs some cool down time.
778
00:58:03.855 --> 00:58:05.295
779
00:58:05.695 --> 00:58:07.475
Hornet about this,
780
00:58:08.010 --> 00:58:10.970
what's minor firmware. I guess that's that kind of covers this,
781
00:58:11.370 --> 00:58:14.190
782
00:58:14.650 --> 00:58:21.775
takes care of it if you if you have fence running while you suspend hashing. I think this is the best that you can do for the PCBs.
783
00:58:23.355 --> 00:58:24.955
Yeah. So the question was about,
784
00:58:25.835 --> 00:58:26.335
if,
785
00:58:27.150 --> 00:58:34.530
yeah, lots of minor firmware letting you suspend hashing while your fans continue. Same thing we're talking about now just with lots of minor firmware. It it does that?
786
00:58:36.224 --> 00:58:37.204
787
00:58:38.065 --> 00:58:46.710
it. The other question was if if if that would not help the heat dissipation, and the answer is yes. That definitely helps. It definitely would help. I don't I don't
788
00:58:47.570 --> 00:58:50.870
789
00:58:51.650 --> 00:58:55.830
790
00:58:56.434 --> 00:58:57.974
791
00:58:58.434 --> 00:59:07.550
this is one of the tough things about stock firmware for maybe some of us is maybe we don't have as much experience running stock firmware as we do this aftermarket stuff that's so much better.
792
00:59:08.170 --> 00:59:10.305
793
00:59:11.265 --> 00:59:15.605
By the way, an interesting question. If, there's support for Prometheus,
794
00:59:16.944 --> 00:59:20.085
I don't know if you guys know this technology. Prometheus is a standard,
795
00:59:21.250 --> 00:59:21.750
protocol
796
00:59:22.370 --> 00:59:25.350
and a software package that scrapes data from,
797
00:59:26.050 --> 00:59:28.310
server software, basically, taking metrics.
798
00:59:28.875 --> 00:59:30.495
And maybe the question is,
799
00:59:31.195 --> 00:59:32.895
if, support for Prometheus
800
00:59:33.435 --> 00:59:37.130
in inside of Brace OS or any other firmware would be,
801
00:59:38.090 --> 00:59:38.910
an interesting
802
00:59:39.930 --> 00:59:41.230
thing. So
803
00:59:41.530 --> 00:59:43.070
what are your thoughts on this?
804
00:59:44.955 --> 00:59:47.295
Because we use it internally a lot, I would
805
00:59:47.675 --> 00:59:59.875
806
01:00:00.175 --> 01:00:01.635
807
01:00:03.775 --> 01:00:06.755
let's say, API or format, how the data,
808
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:11.080
is to be exported by the software that's being scraped.
809
01:00:13.220 --> 01:00:13.880
And then
810
01:00:14.260 --> 01:00:14.840
the Prometheus
811
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:17.845
itself then goes regular to this.
812
01:00:18.225 --> 01:00:20.085
It's a web, basically, HTTP
813
01:00:20.385 --> 01:00:22.865
technology. It just goes to the website of,
814
01:00:23.425 --> 01:00:26.900
with the metrics. It's a simple text file. It can have a binary
815
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:30.640
form. And then, you know, it it downloads it every
816
01:00:31.255 --> 01:00:35.515
I don't know. Scraping by one second, 10 seconds, depends on your data,
817
01:00:36.134 --> 01:00:50.005
plan and so on, whatever whatever you wanna configure. But the whole point is that that the machine itself doesn't have to be, like, actively pushing any telemetry data anywhere. It just publishes them or whoever wants, sort of like looking at the API.
818
01:00:50.305 --> 01:00:51.125
This is just
819
01:00:51.585 --> 01:00:56.565
another form. But the the benefit is that you don't have to develop the whole
820
01:00:56.980 --> 01:00:57.880
dashboard technology,
821
01:00:58.420 --> 01:01:01.160
like time series processing. All the data,
822
01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:02.280
is
823
01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:07.005
included in in Prometheus, and then you use Grafana to do nice charts.
824
01:01:07.625 --> 01:01:12.605
825
01:01:12.985 --> 01:01:17.940
with using the BossMiner API, but the idea is it would be something a little bit more for,
826
01:01:18.720 --> 01:01:26.495
827
01:01:26.955 --> 01:01:29.055
that are currently kind of, like, sprinkled
828
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:34.660
in the CGminer API. Because when we were developing this, we were kind of forced to keep it at least
829
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:35.460
partially
830
01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:39.795
backwards compatible or make it compatible with what the original
831
01:01:40.415 --> 01:01:40.915
pristine
832
01:01:41.215 --> 01:01:41.715
CGminer,
833
01:01:42.655 --> 01:01:45.075
source published because what the manufacturers,
834
01:01:45.935 --> 01:01:49.619
turned it into was very far from the original
835
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:52.079
design of,
836
01:01:52.799 --> 01:01:54.660
c CK, right, of Konkolybaz.
837
01:01:55.205 --> 01:01:55.705
He,
838
01:01:56.885 --> 01:02:01.945
I mean, he had some ideas what should be exported, and it was really designed around the GPUs.
839
01:02:02.460 --> 01:02:19.470
And then the manufacturers basically took the sources and twisted it into something. And if if they liked a certain section of the API, they just glued in some random data without any really good structure. So you can think about it if we and actually, it's not that much work if we transform
840
01:02:20.170 --> 01:02:21.789
this data that is exported,
841
01:02:22.490 --> 01:02:36.295
in the in the CGminer API into whatever is understood by Prometheus scraper, and then you just deploy your Prometheus scraper in your facility or at home, whatever, and then you get the charts pretty much for free.
842
01:02:36.640 --> 01:02:44.420
843
01:02:44.945 --> 01:02:46.805
844
01:02:47.665 --> 01:02:48.405
an alternative,
845
01:02:49.425 --> 01:02:49.925
thing.
846
01:02:50.225 --> 01:02:53.105
In fact, a feature that we're working on is that,
847
01:02:54.090 --> 01:02:54.590
for
848
01:02:54.890 --> 01:02:55.390
some
849
01:02:55.930 --> 01:02:56.430
customers
850
01:02:57.690 --> 01:02:59.950
who have issues with, let's say, connectivity,
851
01:03:00.490 --> 01:03:01.550
it would be interesting
852
01:03:02.215 --> 01:03:04.795
to give them a tooling that would very reliably,
853
01:03:05.975 --> 01:03:06.475
scrape,
854
01:03:07.335 --> 01:03:07.995
the data,
855
01:03:08.455 --> 01:03:10.475
how the stratum client behaves
856
01:03:10.780 --> 01:03:12.160
that would allow debugging,
857
01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:13.440
like, their
858
01:03:13.740 --> 01:03:18.240
859
01:03:19.715 --> 01:03:30.930
860
01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:32.030
with this,
861
01:03:32.990 --> 01:03:33.490
connectivity,
862
01:03:35.924 --> 01:03:36.424
unreliability.
863
01:03:37.605 --> 01:03:39.704
And once you scrape the data locally,
864
01:03:40.244 --> 01:03:43.944
you can send it to us, and then we can have a look and see how the client
865
01:03:44.244 --> 01:03:49.450
client was was behaving. But theoretically, this can be, like, displayed on on on client. And,
866
01:03:50.310 --> 01:03:51.450
the problem is that
867
01:03:52.895 --> 01:04:04.910
it is useful for for a couple of miners. So when you're, like, really looking in detailed data for for for a couple of miners, But when you want to do, like, thousands and thousands of miners, then it becomes
868
01:04:05.369 --> 01:04:06.670
kind of cluttered. So,
869
01:04:07.049 --> 01:04:21.000
more thought needs to be put into how you want to present the data from from every single miner because then you have to do some aggregation and so on. So I can definitely talk to some of that. So, you know, part of my day job is, I manage literally
870
01:04:21.620 --> 01:04:24.120
871
01:04:24.660 --> 01:04:25.720
here on the
872
01:04:26.255 --> 01:04:32.614
screen now. We got the 2 TVs, obviously, the slash pool dashboard. And then over on the right is Just a casual
873
01:04:33.454 --> 01:04:33.954
874
01:04:34.494 --> 01:04:34.994
petahash.
875
01:04:35.900 --> 01:04:37.740
876
01:04:39.180 --> 01:04:41.440
But, so then on the right is,
877
01:04:41.900 --> 01:04:42.720
I'm pulling
878
01:04:43.615 --> 01:04:46.275
I'm pulling data directly from the API results,
879
01:04:46.655 --> 01:04:51.315
and then I have a script that parses out the information that I really want. And so
880
01:04:52.070 --> 01:04:57.050
in this right hand screen, what I have is there's there's 2 windows. You can see the red and blue,
881
01:04:57.910 --> 01:05:01.885
window and then the the single blue window, or I guess, or
882
01:05:03.005 --> 01:05:03.505
Yeah.
883
01:05:04.125 --> 01:05:06.785
And so the, the red and blue is the chip,
884
01:05:07.570 --> 01:05:09.990
is in red and blue is the board temperatures.
885
01:05:10.530 --> 01:05:12.610
And there's actually three lines. So there's,
886
01:05:13.330 --> 01:05:14.390
for each card.
887
01:05:14.755 --> 01:05:15.575
And then the
888
01:05:15.875 --> 01:05:17.735
single line is the hash rate.
889
01:05:18.355 --> 01:05:19.095
And so
890
01:05:20.515 --> 01:05:24.329
this specifically just has 12, and then it cycles through different,
891
01:05:24.970 --> 01:05:28.349
dashboards. But then over here on the right then is a
892
01:05:28.650 --> 01:05:33.435
overall status circle. And we we can see one thing's in yellow, which means it's kinda getting close to
893
01:05:33.735 --> 01:05:36.555
a a temperature rating threshold that I have.
894
01:05:36.935 --> 01:05:40.555
Then the the ones off to the right is my overall balance, and then those
895
01:05:40.970 --> 01:05:44.910
multiple lines in the kind of bottom right are all the tank temperatures.
896
01:05:45.690 --> 01:05:47.390
So in a in a overview
897
01:05:47.850 --> 01:06:03.090
look, I can see immediately what's going on. And you're definitely right though. I mean, if you have a 1,000 of them, you're not gonna have a 1,000 individual things on here. But you could make a total test, total status screen with a, a a a a donut like that. And you can see, oh, we've got
898
01:06:03.390 --> 01:06:10.905
this many that are in red and a complete fail stage, or we have a spike in temperature on this particular tank or
899
01:06:11.685 --> 01:06:20.720
or, ambient temperature if you're running air cooler or what not. And you can find that in relatively short order and get, email alerts on that and and the whole thing.
900
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:23.599
Usually when I set this up for for
901
01:06:24.175 --> 01:06:28.435
servers and such, I'll know the problem long before the customer knows about it,
902
01:06:29.295 --> 01:06:31.955
because I'll get alerted about it within 30 seconds.
903
01:06:32.630 --> 01:06:35.769
And being able to pull that information from brains directly
904
01:06:36.470 --> 01:06:41.289
is is awesome. And then I also get full history. So I keep history for a year,
905
01:06:42.525 --> 01:06:49.665
and then I can find out, I can go back like, oh, this thing's been running at, you know, let's say 90 c or something like that. If I look back over a 30 day period
906
01:06:49.980 --> 01:07:02.575
and say, oh, on this day, something happened or or whatnot. But I I can go into that historical data, and I think running it directly on a minor, I don't, you know, unless there's a way to
907
01:07:03.115 --> 01:07:10.840
have additional storage. I know you can use like a 16 gig card, but I don't know how much data that that would be is accessible to the miner itself,
908
01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:13.800
or I should say, you know, to brains itself
909
01:07:14.340 --> 01:07:17.240
and and be able to write the historical information.
910
01:07:19.245 --> 01:07:22.065
911
01:07:22.605 --> 01:07:23.585
Yeah. This is PRTG.
912
01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:29.000
913
01:07:30.740 --> 01:07:31.240
Grafana.
914
01:07:32.865 --> 01:07:40.645
It's just one of the ones that I use, commercially all the time anyway. And then there's a free version for up to a 100 sensors. So I'm just using that.
915
01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.340
916
01:07:45.160 --> 01:07:50.620
Actually, I can talk about so we did another thing that's similar. This is kinda part of what we offer clients.
917
01:07:51.205 --> 01:07:53.705
I've set up a web server actually that does
918
01:07:54.725 --> 01:07:58.985
this for, like, hundreds of units that we have out, and it basically just
919
01:07:59.520 --> 01:08:03.680
keeps historical data. And we pull from the slush pool API instead because it's,
920
01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:11.994
it's actually a little bit, cheaper data wise because we have a very limited amount of data coming from each of our units. Like, we wanna reduce that as much as possible.
921
01:08:12.775 --> 01:08:13.515
Like, maybe
922
01:08:13.815 --> 01:08:16.795
5 to 10 gigabytes a month is kind of what we'd aim for.
923
01:08:17.580 --> 01:08:33.175
But we can pull historical data, and that's really useful for a lot of people because they can go in and see, hey. My unit's at 0. Like, I need to check this out. Or if you have someone out there that you don't want accessing your slash pool account, then you can you just give them that login and they basically get view only access to it.
924
01:08:34.200 --> 01:08:44.515
925
01:08:45.295 --> 01:08:53.460
in a container, let's say. And so that aggregates all the direct data to that and then just sends back a small amount back up to the main node.
926
01:08:57.364 --> 01:09:02.264
927
01:09:02.565 --> 01:09:09.500
into each unit, but for a different reason, and that was proxying, like, aggregating the data. They actually go to the pool.
928
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:15.275
And so that would basically be taking all the actual, like, hash rate,
929
01:09:16.295 --> 01:09:22.159
sort of, as you would kinda think about it, and sending it through one central location, combining it, and then pushing it to the pool from there.
930
01:09:24.480 --> 01:09:26.579
But I just have never really had a
931
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:30.165
good way to, like, implement something like that alongside it.
932
01:09:30.645 --> 01:09:32.745
So that might be something to look into. It's interesting.
933
01:09:34.485 --> 01:09:35.705
934
01:09:36.500 --> 01:09:39.240
935
01:09:39.940 --> 01:09:40.440
Jonathan.
936
01:09:40.900 --> 01:09:47.055
I assume that at some point in the future, like, you know, Bitcoin keeps succeeding, that there will be room to implement
937
01:09:47.675 --> 01:09:50.495
tools such as what you were showing in in
938
01:09:50.795 --> 01:09:51.935
in mining stacks.
939
01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:58.360
Like, right now, you kinda have to make it on your own, and it sounds like Brett's doing similar things, but there are no
940
01:09:59.460 --> 01:10:01.000
accessible tools to
941
01:10:01.635 --> 01:10:02.934
the the everyday person.
942
01:10:03.395 --> 01:10:04.534
943
01:10:04.994 --> 01:10:11.210
I love open source stuff, and that's one of my my favorite things about brains and and the Raspberry Pi specifically.
944
01:10:11.590 --> 01:10:15.050
You know, just the cost of the Pi alone is so small and and
945
01:10:15.430 --> 01:10:16.650
relatively inconsequential.
946
01:10:18.385 --> 01:10:19.765
And being able to,
947
01:10:20.465 --> 01:10:23.925
a goal of mine that I would really love to do is to be able to have
948
01:10:24.465 --> 01:10:24.965
basically
949
01:10:27.750 --> 01:10:31.449
a raspberry pie that could manage, you know, x number of miners,
950
01:10:31.989 --> 01:10:34.810
have that aggregate data coming in from all the miners,
951
01:10:36.635 --> 01:10:40.895
and have the whole thing open source. And you could just release an SD card image,
952
01:10:42.430 --> 01:10:45.250
and like, here you go. We throw it on the network. It finds,
953
01:10:46.910 --> 01:10:50.690
it finds your, miners by IP that you allow it to find,
954
01:10:51.165 --> 01:10:53.505
and then it can start collecting that data.
955
01:10:56.364 --> 01:10:58.465
956
01:10:58.844 --> 01:10:59.344
I,
957
01:11:00.810 --> 01:11:05.310
unless there's other threads to pull on with this one, I'm sure you and Brett could go back and forth for a while.
958
01:11:05.770 --> 01:11:06.590
959
01:11:07.050 --> 01:11:12.074
960
01:11:13.175 --> 01:11:19.114
961
01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:21.219
these monitoring systems alone,
962
01:11:22.080 --> 01:11:24.340
is something that you just have to do from scratch,
963
01:11:24.719 --> 01:11:26.100
if you wanna do it correctly.
964
01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:38.690
And I think it highlights, like, the the canvas that we have in front of us to build a really cool industry all the way down from, like, the hardware to the software stack. And just think about the efficiencies that are gonna be gained from all this practical
965
01:11:39.310 --> 01:11:41.250
software thrown on top of these systems.
966
01:11:41.550 --> 01:11:54.790
967
01:11:55.430 --> 01:12:01.770
And being able to have something like that that would directly integrate within brains and and pull that information,
968
01:12:02.785 --> 01:12:05.285
and feed stuff back such as minor control.
969
01:12:07.025 --> 01:12:12.550
And then if you took it even a step further and doing, immersion, and then it would actually be able to know,
970
01:12:13.250 --> 01:12:19.750
tank temperatures on top of just the miner itself and being able to have those talk to each other back and forth is
971
01:12:20.530 --> 01:12:22.375
well, well, that's something I'm working on.
972
01:12:22.995 --> 01:12:26.534
973
01:12:27.235 --> 01:12:30.614
With with all mining setups right now, you kinda optimize
974
01:12:31.140 --> 01:12:35.000
for watt usage. Like, when when we talk about the auto tuning feature that that,
975
01:12:35.860 --> 01:12:39.240
brands offers, you're optimizing for a certain wattage.
976
01:12:39.985 --> 01:12:41.925
So you're maximizing your Terahash,
977
01:12:43.985 --> 01:12:47.844
for that wattage. But as as this technology progresses
978
01:12:48.145 --> 01:12:48.645
and,
979
01:12:50.020 --> 01:12:51.960
you know, these miners start entering
980
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:53.620
homes for heating,
981
01:12:54.660 --> 01:12:55.800
I think, you know,
982
01:12:56.845 --> 01:13:04.065
upstream data is kinda hinted at and kinda what you're working out with working on heating your pool, it would be awesome to start optimizing for
983
01:13:04.570 --> 01:13:05.310
chip temperature.
984
01:13:05.610 --> 01:13:08.190
So if you could if you had firmware to optimize
985
01:13:08.490 --> 01:13:10.830
so that the the chip temperatures were,
986
01:13:11.290 --> 01:13:13.470
I I don't know, say, 70 degrees
987
01:13:14.635 --> 01:13:19.615
during the winter, you know, you could kinda pump that into your house and and regulate that. And then
988
01:13:19.995 --> 01:13:21.935
the temperature would or the the
989
01:13:22.360 --> 01:13:27.740
watt input would scale up and down to match that. Just just kinda act as a a thermostat, essentially.
990
01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:33.275
991
01:13:34.855 --> 01:13:37.114
and getting those probes to to
992
01:13:37.735 --> 01:13:44.300
register on the pie. So the pie knows the tank temperature. And if there if you can make that tank oil temperature steady,
993
01:13:45.719 --> 01:13:48.219
and when it rises or drops,
994
01:13:48.665 --> 01:13:52.045
then it can change the minor output to adjust also.
995
01:13:52.665 --> 01:13:55.085
Suddenly, you have a heat source
996
01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:58.020
very similar to what you would have in a home where
997
01:13:58.400 --> 01:14:00.420
you never had your heater on 100%
998
01:14:01.440 --> 01:14:07.935
all the time or just off 100% all the time. It, you know, when it gets a little bit colder, turns on for a while, turns off for a while.
999
01:14:08.235 --> 01:14:10.335
And it would be similar to that. Obviously,
1000
01:14:10.715 --> 01:14:12.020
you're gonna wanna have
1001
01:14:12.500 --> 01:14:16.600
the mining as much as possible. You don't want them just to have them off and being idle.
1002
01:14:17.460 --> 01:14:27.275
And then I'm working on systems for that where then you you would basically instead of piping the heat inside the house, you would pipe it outside kind of like how a air conditioner works
1003
01:14:27.770 --> 01:14:35.615
where you have that external unit. And then in in colder climates, you would just have keep it all internal, and it would go through whatever heating system you have.
1004
01:14:36.015 --> 01:14:40.275
1005
01:14:41.055 --> 01:14:43.715
that's where the money is. Like, it all
1006
01:14:44.250 --> 01:14:45.550
everything is incentivized
1007
01:14:45.929 --> 01:14:46.329
for,
1008
01:14:47.929 --> 01:14:54.605
you know, these companies get as many miners online as possible. And Yep. You know, if you bring on a few miners here and there,
1009
01:14:55.145 --> 01:14:57.085
to heat at home, that's not really gonna
1010
01:14:57.465 --> 01:15:00.125
that's not gonna pay the bills. That's not gonna pay all your developers.
1011
01:15:01.180 --> 01:15:06.880
So you're having to be creative with these these raspberry pies and, you know, kinda optimizing that on your own.
1012
01:15:07.740 --> 01:15:13.815
But I I do think in the next, you know, the next epoch, the next 4 years, we might start seeing some stuff like that.
1013
01:15:15.315 --> 01:15:20.100
And I don't know. I I just think that that that's probably one of the things that I'm the most fascinated
1014
01:15:20.719 --> 01:15:21.620
about is,
1015
01:15:22.320 --> 01:15:24.580
that coming into the everyday house.
1016
01:15:25.365 --> 01:15:38.720
1017
01:15:39.180 --> 01:15:50.830
You got to ASICs and then high speed fans, and and nobody wanted them in their home because they're basically as loud as a shop vac. And so if we bring that back around again and put them into an enclosure
1018
01:15:51.450 --> 01:15:53.790
that can dissipate that volume of heat
1019
01:15:54.570 --> 01:15:56.110
with low fan noise,
1020
01:15:56.495 --> 01:15:58.755
you can kinda bring it back into that market again.
1021
01:16:00.575 --> 01:16:06.250
1022
01:16:06.630 --> 01:16:13.370
this just so that we could do this live recording and not have Yeah. I don't have that problem over here. I don't know what you're talking about. No. I know you don't.
1023
01:16:14.195 --> 01:16:18.935
1024
01:16:19.395 --> 01:16:22.260
1025
01:16:22.659 --> 01:16:35.445
by turning them off. So that was really nice of him. Haven't hidden blocks yet, so we're gonna have to keep pushing this one. You might not know that. The freaks know when they haven't heard me for 45 minutes is a good dispatch. Slashpool mind the block
1026
01:16:36.385 --> 01:16:44.920
1027
01:16:46.179 --> 01:16:47.719
Does mining over tor
1028
01:16:48.020 --> 01:16:48.520
actually
1029
01:16:50.164 --> 01:16:54.664
impede any of your any of your hash rate or anything like that?
1030
01:16:55.204 --> 01:17:01.760
Because I just I just rock a VPN. Seems to work fine for me. I would like to be a little more,
1031
01:17:04.875 --> 01:17:06.014
I don't know, clandestine
1032
01:17:06.395 --> 01:17:16.270
about it. I don't know if it's possible because my my utility company already knows that I'm sucking down a tremendous about amount of power, but
1033
01:17:17.130 --> 01:17:21.389
I don't know how I don't know how mining over Tor works. Is it is it even feasible?
1034
01:17:24.255 --> 01:17:30.355
1035
01:17:31.570 --> 01:17:34.449
1036
01:17:34.929 --> 01:17:37.670
1037
01:17:38.050 --> 01:17:47.025
Alright. That's You have you have to use a VPN. And a hardcore miner will tell you that a VPN has too much latency, but I think the privacy gains are worth it.
1038
01:17:48.510 --> 01:17:50.450
1039
01:17:50.830 --> 01:17:51.890
agree with that.
1040
01:17:53.550 --> 01:17:57.905
1041
01:17:59.985 --> 01:18:06.250
we were talking about coin heated and Brett's, like, using a rasp pi for remote diagnostic.
1042
01:18:08.070 --> 01:18:09.620
You know, a lot of us,
1043
01:18:11.085 --> 01:18:12.065
you know, nonprofessional
1044
01:18:12.525 --> 01:18:16.864
miners talk about Stratum v 2 being a great addition,
1045
01:18:17.245 --> 01:18:19.344
to the ecosystem in terms of incentives,
1046
01:18:20.130 --> 01:18:21.270
but it has a
1047
01:18:22.210 --> 01:18:28.870
an additional cost, basically, to miners that they have to run their own nodes and construct their own blocks. I mean, that's the advantage,
1048
01:18:30.355 --> 01:18:46.489
of Stratum v 2. One of the main advantages of Stratum v 2 is that they're in control of the blocks and they're using their own node. Is that something you that, you know, the people on the panel right now are excited about, or is that something you're not even you you wouldn't even wanna do that? You don't you wouldn't even want that extra overhead.
1049
01:18:47.034 --> 01:18:49.855
1050
01:18:50.554 --> 01:18:55.215
You you wouldn't you don't even have to do that. You don't have to do block swaps. Man.
1051
01:18:56.820 --> 01:18:59.800
But is that something you guys want? Like, do you want that?
1052
01:19:00.420 --> 01:19:02.360
Block selection transaction selection?
1053
01:19:02.739 --> 01:19:03.239
1054
01:19:03.685 --> 01:19:14.510
1055
01:19:16.270 --> 01:19:17.010
with something.
1056
01:19:17.949 --> 01:19:21.995
I assume once it comes out, there'll be, like, proxy services. You can you can tell slash pool or f two pool services. You can you can tell
1057
01:19:22.375 --> 01:19:24.555
slash pool or f two pool to
1058
01:19:24.935 --> 01:19:26.395
to pick blocks for you, but
1059
01:19:28.320 --> 01:19:34.900
I don't know. I I I see what you're saying, Matt. That definitely was an extra burden on on the miner that hasn't been really talked about.
1060
01:19:35.805 --> 01:19:39.425
But I think 99% of the the world is excited for v 2.
1061
01:19:39.965 --> 01:19:45.265
1062
01:19:47.090 --> 01:19:48.310
mining, I guess.
1063
01:19:49.250 --> 01:19:51.989
I I like, block selection is exciting.
1064
01:19:53.250 --> 01:19:54.710
I don't know how
1065
01:19:55.455 --> 01:20:04.915
like, maybe Marty can speak more to this. I don't know how it's gonna work for some of the bigger miners. Like, I don't know if this is something that's really exciting for you, Marty, being able to kinda choose what blocks you wanna mine.
1066
01:20:06.080 --> 01:20:08.960
But I I'm just excited for some of the other features like,
1067
01:20:10.480 --> 01:20:12.180
data usage reduction with stratumv2,
1068
01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:19.705
that kind of stuff. Like, there's lots of cool stuff that goes into it. Yeah. I mean, for I think we're certainly excited for it.
1069
01:20:21.225 --> 01:20:25.620
1070
01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:33.565
own block and having to run a full node, you're saying that you're already running 100 of computers and setting up the these networks and connecting with the pool, like,
1071
01:20:33.865 --> 01:20:41.810
for us, I mean, we have a bunch of Bitcoiners in our engineering team, Austin. I don't think he'd have a problem spinning up a a full pairing it with our operations
1072
01:20:42.350 --> 01:20:44.770
even if we had multiple full nodes per container
1073
01:20:45.150 --> 01:20:46.770
or, like, full node per container,
1074
01:20:47.275 --> 01:20:53.375
or we could just create our own subnet with with its own signal full net. Yeah. I don't I wanna see that being problem, and
1075
01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:04.295
it it's always a good option to have in the very least the the ability to create your own block. I guess the the interesting question is after that, once you
1076
01:21:05.315 --> 01:21:06.535
feed it to the pool,
1077
01:21:07.395 --> 01:21:08.695
to slush pool, like,
1078
01:21:08.995 --> 01:21:09.815
like, is that
1079
01:21:10.310 --> 01:21:14.250
a point at which can be rejected and they can pick pick another block? I guess that's the,
1080
01:21:16.150 --> 01:21:18.735
one of, like, the, like, steel man
1081
01:21:19.275 --> 01:21:19.775
questions
1082
01:21:20.635 --> 01:21:26.974
1083
01:21:28.130 --> 01:21:29.670
1084
01:21:30.210 --> 01:21:33.909
then does does the pool lose it and it goes back?
1085
01:21:35.045 --> 01:21:36.745
1086
01:21:37.445 --> 01:21:43.465
Please. I'm I'm one of the authors of, the draft of the v two with Pavel.
1087
01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:48.620
Currently, we're working with, Square Crypto who
1088
01:21:49.159 --> 01:21:51.820
greatly took over the v two
1089
01:21:52.415 --> 01:21:56.835
efforts, and they are actually focusing on adding functionality
1090
01:21:57.375 --> 01:22:01.235
into Bitcoin Core that would allow the job negotiation
1091
01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:04.000
to happen, because there's,
1092
01:22:04.640 --> 01:22:09.380
there's part that's just needed also on the Bitcoin Bitcoin core end.
1093
01:22:11.455 --> 01:22:11.955
Secondly,
1094
01:22:13.055 --> 01:22:16.115
you need essentially, the job negotiation protocol
1095
01:22:16.495 --> 01:22:24.150
is is, a sub protocol of v 2. So, it's not the mining part. It's the negotiation part. So,
1096
01:22:25.570 --> 01:22:27.270
initially, the the miner,
1097
01:22:28.145 --> 01:22:35.840
has to negotiate that the work that he has selected with the pool is valid, but at the same time, he can I mean, that's the proposal?
1098
01:22:36.300 --> 01:22:55.590
He can already start submitting the results based on his templates, and they can be rejected, like, later on. So that means, like, they it the pool cannot let you know that the the stuff that you submitted is is garbage because it tells you it's okay, but it's gonna show. The idea is that it would show up in the accounting, essentially, that this was
1099
01:22:55.970 --> 01:23:10.820
garbage. And the reason is that you want to be as efficient process as possible. Because if you, as a miner, are able to construct your own template as fast as possible, there's just no good reason for the pool to slow down the process of you submitting the results. Right?
1100
01:23:11.280 --> 01:23:16.875
The validation can come after, but it cannot be, real time because there's some negotiation
1101
01:23:17.495 --> 01:23:20.235
being done in parallel to this. So it's pretty complex,
1102
01:23:20.695 --> 01:23:22.555
concept, and it has some additional
1103
01:23:24.670 --> 01:23:25.170
requirements
1104
01:23:25.470 --> 01:23:31.490
on the pool software. So a pool and also has to be feature rich in order to support something like this.
1105
01:23:32.725 --> 01:23:34.745
So once once those guys
1106
01:23:35.125 --> 01:23:38.745
are are are done with their stuff, we can start thinking about this.
1107
01:23:40.324 --> 01:23:41.945
That being said, I
1108
01:23:42.949 --> 01:23:45.530
I feel that there are there's a lot of,
1109
01:23:46.309 --> 01:23:53.705
like, rumors around this feature that people find it as a super important thing. I think it's a super important thing,
1110
01:23:54.485 --> 01:23:55.545
as a security
1111
01:23:56.005 --> 01:23:57.545
or sorry, as a safety,
1112
01:23:58.245 --> 01:23:59.385
protocol feature
1113
01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:07.340
in case censorship would start happening. Well, it started happening last year, right, with certain certain new pools, but
1114
01:24:09.505 --> 01:24:19.140
you still have the option to switch over to another pool. But the great strength that I am seeing with, with v 2 is simply switching over to a straightforward
1115
01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:20.020
binary.
1116
01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:23.060
V 2 isn't what Satoshi
1117
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:25.700
envisioned. Well, Satoshi, right,
1118
01:24:26.675 --> 01:24:27.655
started with,
1119
01:24:28.195 --> 01:24:29.175
get blocked template.
1120
01:24:31.795 --> 01:24:32.295
So
1121
01:24:33.969 --> 01:24:36.389
I think I forgot the the flow now.
1122
01:24:36.690 --> 01:24:39.969
1123
01:24:40.875 --> 01:24:44.574
with v 2 with individuals constructed in their own blocks,
1124
01:24:45.355 --> 01:24:48.014
can the individual construct empty blocks?
1125
01:24:48.715 --> 01:24:49.950
1126
01:24:50.430 --> 01:24:51.650
It's it's an accounting,
1127
01:24:52.510 --> 01:24:53.810
problem because
1128
01:24:54.190 --> 01:24:54.750
let's say you're
1129
01:24:55.550 --> 01:24:59.730
it's it's a corner case, but let's say you're the evil miner who for some
1130
01:25:00.145 --> 01:25:07.764
reason, likes empty blocks. Right? So you're gonna be proposing empty blocks. They're completely fine. They're illegal. You're not proposing,
1131
01:25:08.385 --> 01:25:13.960
invalid transactions, so they're gonna be approved by the pool unless there is some special policy on this.
1132
01:25:14.340 --> 01:25:19.025
But let's say the pool allows it. But what needs to be reflected is that you're essentially,
1133
01:25:19.725 --> 01:25:22.785
reducing the reward of of other miners. Right? Because,
1134
01:25:23.245 --> 01:25:24.065
the the
1135
01:25:24.525 --> 01:25:25.745
the the hash rate,
1136
01:25:26.900 --> 01:25:28.840
the the portion of the hash rate,
1137
01:25:29.860 --> 01:25:30.360
1138
01:25:31.059 --> 01:25:33.159
The portion portion of the transaction
1139
01:25:33.460 --> 01:25:38.335
rewards that you normally would have got not gonna be. That's what I was trying to say. Yeah. Yeah.
1140
01:25:39.034 --> 01:25:42.255
1141
01:25:43.660 --> 01:25:48.640
that the rewards that you would be getting from the other blocks mined by other miners,
1142
01:25:49.180 --> 01:25:51.600
so your your cut would have to be
1143
01:25:52.275 --> 01:25:54.215
reduced, and it would have to reflect,
1144
01:25:54.755 --> 01:25:59.735
the fact that you are in favor of of empty blocks. So that's
1145
01:26:00.480 --> 01:26:05.619
1146
01:26:06.159 --> 01:26:09.780
migrate away from you be for the same reason that why
1147
01:26:12.195 --> 01:26:16.054
people will migrate away from, let's say, censored transactions
1148
01:26:16.355 --> 01:26:17.415
or something like that.
1149
01:26:17.840 --> 01:26:18.340
Like,
1150
01:26:19.520 --> 01:26:20.740
there are transactions
1151
01:26:21.120 --> 01:26:26.180
out there that are willing to pay someone, and there's always someone willing to
1152
01:26:27.085 --> 01:26:28.945
willing to mine those transactions.
1153
01:26:29.965 --> 01:26:30.465
So
1154
01:26:31.245 --> 01:26:33.425
you would actually be in a worse position
1155
01:26:33.885 --> 01:26:34.605
than somebody
1156
01:26:36.180 --> 01:26:39.480
Yeah. I okay. I get it. I get it. I'm seeing it now.
1157
01:26:40.580 --> 01:26:43.615
1158
01:26:44.255 --> 01:26:46.675
of the v 2, and just a pure
1159
01:26:47.055 --> 01:26:47.555
engineering
1160
01:26:48.015 --> 01:26:53.075
improvement of the security and the the efficiency of the transfers of data because,
1161
01:26:53.930 --> 01:26:57.390
I don't know if you looked in detail what v one contains,
1162
01:26:57.930 --> 01:26:58.250
but,
1163
01:26:58.969 --> 01:26:59.870
every single
1164
01:27:00.330 --> 01:27:00.830
submission
1165
01:27:01.575 --> 01:27:02.555
contains the string,
1166
01:27:03.255 --> 01:27:03.755
right,
1167
01:27:04.775 --> 01:27:16.970
mining sub byte or whatever that message is called. It's a it's like a useless string that could be expressed by a single byte, But we have transferred through all the years, like, terabytes and terabytes of this useless data.
1168
01:27:18.230 --> 01:27:21.235
Speaking of which, for locations that have some
1169
01:27:21.535 --> 01:27:22.675
bandwidth constraints,
1170
01:27:23.135 --> 01:27:24.515
that could actually,
1171
01:27:25.455 --> 01:27:27.635
be interesting. So that's one part.
1172
01:27:27.980 --> 01:27:32.480
The the data efficiency of the protocol itself, then the overall efficiency,
1173
01:27:34.140 --> 01:27:35.280
where certain messages
1174
01:27:35.820 --> 01:27:37.280
don't need to be sent,
1175
01:27:38.204 --> 01:27:40.465
when you broadcast new jobs and so on.
1176
01:27:41.485 --> 01:27:41.985
And
1177
01:27:42.525 --> 01:27:45.585
last but not least is the security part.
1178
01:27:45.890 --> 01:27:47.110
So now,
1179
01:27:47.890 --> 01:27:50.790
the protocol itself from user perspective
1180
01:27:51.409 --> 01:27:54.230
acts as what we're used to when using,
1181
01:27:55.215 --> 01:27:57.235
the web. Right? You have HTTPS
1182
01:27:58.095 --> 01:28:03.235
and your browser contains the root certificates that are that have been used to sign,
1183
01:28:03.650 --> 01:28:10.230
the the actual server certificate of your favorite website. And the the the same concept, but in a much
1184
01:28:10.690 --> 01:28:11.190
reduced,
1185
01:28:11.730 --> 01:28:14.855
way is implemented in v 2. It uses
1186
01:28:15.315 --> 01:28:19.950
a noise protocol framework, and it has chosen one of the handshakes that
1187
01:28:20.590 --> 01:28:26.450
allows authenticating the server. There's no need to authenticate the client for for for this purpose.
1188
01:28:27.070 --> 01:28:28.610
And all all the
1189
01:28:34.535 --> 01:28:35.675
1190
01:28:36.535 --> 01:28:38.210
1191
01:28:39.650 --> 01:28:46.230
He was talking about the noise protocol. I can I can kinda go on about the noise protocol? I don't know a whole lot about noise protocol,
1192
01:28:46.665 --> 01:28:48.764
but the idea is it's, it's
1193
01:28:49.145 --> 01:28:54.824
it's used before actually initializing the connection. What the noise protocol does is it,
1194
01:28:55.530 --> 01:28:56.590
it basically connects
1195
01:28:57.130 --> 01:29:00.190
to the server from the client, and they do what's called a handshake.
1196
01:29:00.570 --> 01:29:05.390
And they basically just check some keys, that kind of stuff, some some general, like,
1197
01:29:06.235 --> 01:29:07.215
security stuff
1198
01:29:07.675 --> 01:29:21.080
just to make sure that the This is between the miner and the pool. Right? Pool. Yes. Okay. And and so that that noise handshake just basically ensures that the pool is actually who they say they are using some encrypted keys, that type of stuff.
1199
01:29:21.405 --> 01:29:23.905
And then after that, they open an encrypted tunnel
1200
01:29:26.285 --> 01:29:46.535
between the pool and the miner, and it it's like you you're literally putting, like, a tube around your connection. Like, nobody can get into that. They can see kinda where it's coming from and but they can't really tell where it's going. They can't really tell the data, and it's it's kinda messy for people. And on top of that, one of the nice things about Stratum v 2 using this noise protocol handshake
1201
01:29:46.915 --> 01:29:48.695
and also this encrypted connection
1202
01:29:49.150 --> 01:29:50.530
is that it prevents,
1203
01:29:52.030 --> 01:29:57.090
what's called a man in the middle attack, which is where people basically go. They pretend they're the pool,
1204
01:29:58.065 --> 01:30:01.125
whether that be your ISP could do something like that or
1205
01:30:01.505 --> 01:30:01.905
peeps
1206
01:30:02.305 --> 01:30:05.445
somebody somebody malicious malicious some malicious actor.
1207
01:30:06.050 --> 01:30:08.630
They would get between you and the pool. They'd say, hey. We're
1208
01:30:09.010 --> 01:30:10.630
x pool that you're using.
1209
01:30:11.250 --> 01:30:16.195
So give us some portion of your hash rate, and then they'd kinda proxy you onwards.
1210
01:30:16.575 --> 01:30:26.790
And if if they do this right, it's barely even noticeable. It would be such a small portion, but they're still siphoning off your hash rate. And so v 2 prevents that by basically encrypting all that data.
1211
01:30:27.969 --> 01:30:33.344
Another another really nice thing about v 2, and I think Yan kinda talked about this a little bit, is
1212
01:30:34.045 --> 01:30:36.864
how much it actually reduces bandwidth usage.
1213
01:30:37.244 --> 01:30:38.704
So with v one,
1214
01:30:39.165 --> 01:30:41.890
my understanding of v one is that it sends JSON,
1215
01:30:43.790 --> 01:30:44.930
to and from the pool.
1216
01:30:45.470 --> 01:30:49.490
Maybe encrypted. I'm not entirely sure. Maybe Kahuna knows a little more about that.
1217
01:30:51.035 --> 01:30:54.094
But it it sends JSON data between the pool and the miner.
1218
01:30:54.395 --> 01:30:54.895
Whereas,
1219
01:30:55.835 --> 01:30:56.335
because,
1220
01:30:56.795 --> 01:31:03.790
sorry, some history on this. In the past, you would want your stratum information to actually be human readable. You would want to be able to,
1221
01:31:05.150 --> 01:31:05.810
to basically,
1222
01:31:06.415 --> 01:31:18.360
if you if you really felt like it, go in and actually read your stratum data from your miner or from the pool or whatever. And so JSON data, JavaScript object notation data is human readable, and it's just a set of key value pairs.
1223
01:31:19.300 --> 01:31:22.920
Whereas something like Strata v 2, I believe, uses
1224
01:31:23.300 --> 01:31:23.800
binary.
1225
01:31:24.565 --> 01:31:33.625
And so they're converting it into a nonhuman readable format, but the amount of bytes that are being used by it are actually considerably less.
1226
01:31:34.100 --> 01:31:44.685
1227
01:31:45.145 --> 01:31:51.645
you know, a a smaller text format, you you have less data to less data to communicate between the pools
1228
01:31:52.260 --> 01:31:53.320
and the miners,
1229
01:31:53.940 --> 01:31:58.360
and that just requires less bandwidth. So if you're operating out in the middle of the ocean,
1230
01:31:59.235 --> 01:32:08.614
for a mining or a, you know, an oil rig or something that's less static, you have to transfer back and forth, and that allows you to operate under a, you know, a shittier Internet Internet connection.
1231
01:32:09.710 --> 01:32:12.450
1232
01:32:12.910 --> 01:32:15.170
1233
01:32:15.550 --> 01:32:20.375
I don't know at what point my connection cut off. I just saw my might be muted. So,
1234
01:32:21.074 --> 01:32:28.320
can you guys hear me now? Right? Yes. That's that's impressive that I actually managed to Yeah. One one note done.
1235
01:32:29.420 --> 01:32:38.505
Yeah. One one note to noise is is is pretty much a standard thing that is being used by signal, and I think even WhatsApp uses it for the end to end encryption.
1236
01:32:38.860 --> 01:32:41.440
And what is good about it is it's it's a crypto,
1237
01:32:42.380 --> 01:32:44.800
done the right way, and it's very hard
1238
01:32:45.660 --> 01:32:46.880
to do it wrong because,
1239
01:32:47.275 --> 01:32:51.155
basically, all you do is you design the handshake. You just
1240
01:32:51.595 --> 01:33:02.780
there's a formal language for it, and you choose the handshake that fits your your use case. Like, if you want to authenticate both ends or just the server, which is the case for for v 2. And it
1241
01:33:03.180 --> 01:33:15.455
if I say, like, originally, we were considering going with TLS 2.0, but then I had a talk with Matt Carrel, and he'll be like, wow. Why you do wanna use TLS 2.0? Because, like, even though TLS 2.0 is a good,
1242
01:33:16.450 --> 01:33:17.110
like, technologically,
1243
01:33:17.730 --> 01:33:29.895
it's it's up to date with the the modern crypto. It's AAD, so it's authenticated encryption with associated data. So what that means is that all the data is automatically encrypted, but at at the same time, the protocol
1244
01:33:30.355 --> 01:33:36.650
detects if anybody tempers with the data. So if you touch the encrypted data with the intention to,
1245
01:33:37.030 --> 01:33:45.175
you know, the server thing that somebody sent garbage, but the garbage would get decrypted and interpreted. That's not the case because it's it's easily
1246
01:33:45.635 --> 01:33:46.135
detectable.
1247
01:33:46.835 --> 01:33:59.175
So so TLS is a great thing, but at the same time, it has to deal with all the backward compatible shit, and it there's no, like, formal verification. Whereas for the noise, it it just doesn't have any backward compatible shit,
1248
01:34:00.275 --> 01:34:01.955
along with it. And,
1249
01:34:02.755 --> 01:34:05.655
it's a standard thing, and I think it has a formal verification.
1250
01:34:06.340 --> 01:34:10.440
So it was actually a pleasure developing something like this because,
1251
01:34:11.140 --> 01:34:17.725
everything was literally written in the spec of the noise particle framework, and we just chose, one of the handshakes
1252
01:34:18.344 --> 01:34:19.085
and used
1253
01:34:19.625 --> 01:34:20.125
Snow,
1254
01:34:20.585 --> 01:34:31.440
to to generate the code for us for Rust, for example. Nice. But yeah. So so so that's that's why we chose, and I'm very grateful for, for Matt Corral's input on this,
1255
01:34:31.945 --> 01:34:44.220
because he convinced me literally, like, saying, let's just do let's do it this way. I was like, that that makes perfect sense. And at that time, I didn't even know that that existed, which was my my engineering mistake. But yeah. So,
1256
01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:46.780
this part is, I think, very solid.
1257
01:34:47.960 --> 01:34:53.885
1258
01:34:54.585 --> 01:34:57.005
see if you can find the stratum v 2 specifications.
1259
01:34:57.785 --> 01:35:09.390
That stuff is full of so much technical data. It's it's crazy. These people are amazing, and Jan is super smart. So I'm I'm super excited for what v two is eventually gonna bring.
1260
01:35:10.335 --> 01:35:19.315
1261
01:35:21.570 --> 01:35:22.050
1262
01:35:23.330 --> 01:35:25.270
so, actually, I noticed the question,
1263
01:35:25.969 --> 01:35:26.710
a little
1264
01:35:27.250 --> 01:35:29.804
while ago. I I tried thinking about it.
1265
01:35:32.364 --> 01:35:33.745
I don't think so. It changes,
1266
01:35:34.445 --> 01:35:35.665
incentives. I mean,
1267
01:35:36.610 --> 01:35:39.030
depends how you look at it. Like, from from engineering perspective,
1268
01:35:39.409 --> 01:35:46.150
people should have the incentive to use it because I don't know how to get around, the man in the middle problem. At the same time,
1269
01:35:46.915 --> 01:35:53.175
currently, there are not too many pools implementing. And, essentially, we are the only ones, so it's sort of like the prototype implementation.
1270
01:35:54.760 --> 01:35:55.960
So that is not,
1271
01:35:56.440 --> 01:36:02.540
you know, a good environment to say that we have changed something. But it's, again, it's a it's a work in progress.
1272
01:36:03.079 --> 01:36:04.335
But yeah.
1273
01:36:04.715 --> 01:36:06.094
So so the intention,
1274
01:36:06.635 --> 01:36:07.695
also the incentive
1275
01:36:07.995 --> 01:36:10.655
is very strong. But in order to,
1276
01:36:11.514 --> 01:36:16.139
be usable, you need the server and you need the client. Right? And until it's
1277
01:36:17.080 --> 01:36:18.380
publicly implemented,
1278
01:36:19.239 --> 01:36:19.739
by
1279
01:36:20.360 --> 01:36:21.955
our competitors, let's say,
1280
01:36:23.235 --> 01:36:23.735
it's
1281
01:36:24.115 --> 01:36:25.735
still not the case. Right?
1282
01:36:28.275 --> 01:36:31.280
And I guess the question was originally directed towards
1283
01:36:32.159 --> 01:36:33.059
the, transaction,
1284
01:36:34.320 --> 01:36:34.820
selection,
1285
01:36:36.320 --> 01:36:39.139
which in my opinion is a very logical extension
1286
01:36:39.440 --> 01:36:39.940
towards.
1287
01:36:44.875 --> 01:36:47.855
1288
01:36:48.870 --> 01:36:49.370
when
1289
01:36:50.150 --> 01:36:57.210
whether a okay. If you're running stratum b 2, the miner and the pool still have to align with what the block
1290
01:36:57.545 --> 01:36:58.445
proposal is.
1291
01:36:58.905 --> 01:36:59.405
So
1292
01:36:59.785 --> 01:37:05.245
in a stratum v turner says, hey. I want to mine this block. They hand it off to the pool
1293
01:37:05.790 --> 01:37:08.530
If it's an empty block with no transactions in it,
1294
01:37:09.309 --> 01:37:10.610
or if it's a
1295
01:37:11.389 --> 01:37:16.715
block that doesn't pay the pool, the the Coinbase transaction, then they'll deny it.
1296
01:37:17.415 --> 01:37:20.875
So if there's something in there that they don't like, they'll they'll deny it.
1297
01:37:22.110 --> 01:37:31.304
But what I'm getting at is they they have to agree on the block that's being mined. And then once they do so, the miner is off to the races. They can they can mine that block. So
1298
01:37:31.764 --> 01:37:33.625
miner still gets to pick the block.
1299
01:37:34.244 --> 01:37:37.385
That's a protection against the pool doing something nefarious,
1300
01:37:38.090 --> 01:37:42.030
but the pool still does have to does have to agree to let them mine it.
1301
01:37:42.970 --> 01:37:49.145
1302
01:37:49.845 --> 01:37:50.505
he accidentally
1303
01:37:51.125 --> 01:37:51.865
this was
1304
01:37:52.405 --> 01:37:52.905
last
1305
01:37:54.690 --> 01:37:55.830
last epoch.
1306
01:37:56.690 --> 01:37:58.150
He accidentally ordered
1307
01:37:59.250 --> 01:38:00.710
he accidentally added
1308
01:38:01.330 --> 01:38:01.830
the
1309
01:38:03.445 --> 01:38:04.185
the transaction
1310
01:38:04.725 --> 01:38:07.065
fees into the block reward
1311
01:38:07.925 --> 01:38:10.905
and mined that block, and it was, like, 13
1312
01:38:11.490 --> 01:38:11.990
13
1313
01:38:13.250 --> 01:38:13.750
Bitcoin
1314
01:38:14.450 --> 01:38:14.950
something
1315
01:38:15.410 --> 01:38:17.350
or whatever, and it got rejected.
1316
01:38:17.890 --> 01:38:19.670
So what happens if
1317
01:38:20.765 --> 01:38:23.345
if an individual minor doing this
1318
01:38:23.725 --> 01:38:24.465
does that?
1319
01:38:25.005 --> 01:38:31.940
I guess that was the question I was originally asking, and I I don't I maybe I missed it. Well, that's a yeah.
1320
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:41.745
1321
01:38:42.125 --> 01:38:47.185
is invalid and the pool is going to reject it. So the pool can temporarily let you submit,
1322
01:38:48.010 --> 01:38:52.750
results, but you can think about it as you have a as if you had a buggy miner,
1323
01:38:53.050 --> 01:38:56.030
and it would be generating shares with wrong,
1324
01:38:56.415 --> 01:38:58.995
I don't know, end time because it would be,
1325
01:39:00.094 --> 01:39:04.035
spinning the end time counter too fast. So, like,
1326
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:06.940
moving the the time of the block, and there's a limit,
1327
01:39:07.560 --> 01:39:08.460
after which,
1328
01:39:09.400 --> 01:39:11.505
the the proposed shares are not,
1329
01:39:12.758 --> 01:39:22.090
you know, legal anymore and acceptable. So the pool will start rejecting it, and the the only difference is that the pool would initially accept your your shares because it doesn't,
1330
01:39:22.950 --> 01:39:31.405
know the details of the blog that you're mining on. But once it figures out that these shares are associated with with your own blog that you proposed,
1331
01:39:32.105 --> 01:39:33.085
in the final,
1332
01:39:34.505 --> 01:39:42.460
check, let's say, or a bill at the end. So when you go into some static sticks, you would see that eventually all the shares,
1333
01:39:42.920 --> 01:39:43.820
have been rejected.
1334
01:39:44.120 --> 01:39:50.844
Like so so I I don't see it as a problem. It's a it's a firmware issue. It's a it's a problem with the What if your miner
1335
01:39:51.225 --> 01:39:57.230
1336
01:39:58.650 --> 01:40:00.909
so that it became a rejected block.
1337
01:40:01.849 --> 01:40:03.389
1338
01:40:03.985 --> 01:40:08.085
1339
01:40:09.105 --> 01:40:10.810
1340
01:40:11.210 --> 01:40:20.510
from full perspective, it is the same as if that miner was not connected at all. Like, I mean, you can think about it that energy has been wasted because he has been,
1341
01:40:21.085 --> 01:40:37.015
mining and using that energy to generate shares that eventually are not valid because the pro the block proposal or the block template is not valid. But the system should be designed in a way that we're not talking about hours here. It's just a matter of seconds. So once you,
1342
01:40:37.315 --> 01:40:53.165
construct, such an invalid block template, you send it to the pool. It's doing its, you know, validation work. But at the same time, you already started mining on top of this Yes. So I so it's gonna be sorted out, and and it should be sorted out in seconds. But these seconds are critical
1343
01:40:53.625 --> 01:40:54.105
for,
1344
01:40:54.505 --> 01:40:58.445
the miner to to work efficiently because once it knows its template,
1345
01:40:59.065 --> 01:41:11.815
it it should start mining on top of it. Right? This is the same issue as with the pool. Like, anytime there's a new block found in the network, the the biggest job that each pool has is to generate a new template and distribute
1346
01:41:12.115 --> 01:41:18.215
it among the miners. V 2 pulls this a little bit further because it it tries to propose you an alternative
1347
01:41:18.679 --> 01:41:19.260
template to
1348
01:41:19.719 --> 01:41:28.074
to the to the current block or to the current block template that is being mined. And when a new block is found in network and this alternative template
1349
01:41:29.094 --> 01:41:40.570
is still valid, so it contains let's say it would be empty or it contains transactions that were from the second half of the mempool that were not for sure included with some probability. Let's say, you know,
1350
01:41:40.950 --> 01:41:44.614
you know, the ordering on different nodes is not always guaranteed,
1351
01:41:45.795 --> 01:42:13.170
then these miners, just by knowing or being notified by the pool that, they're supposed to start mining on top of a new block template. They can already start mining because they already have the templates from the pool. And this is exactly the same case with, with, locally generated templates. You have it really fast. Let's say you're you're a big fan of empty blocks, so you start mining on your own, empty block template. You you keep submitting, and you just made a small mistake that the,
1352
01:42:14.030 --> 01:42:15.010
block output
1353
01:42:15.550 --> 01:42:16.929
value is not 6.25,
1354
01:42:17.389 --> 01:42:21.765
but it's 7. And if, you know, if there's no no no transactions,
1355
01:42:22.465 --> 01:42:37.995
and that the reward is over the, consensus protocol, then this this template is invalid. While the pool is gonna tell you in a in a couple seconds probably or even faster, and then it would start rejecting your shares and all the shares that have been, like,
1356
01:42:38.535 --> 01:42:52.140
preliminary accepted until the point where we have found out that the block is not valid, although the template is not valid, they would be like, their status would be changed in the accounting. So you would you will see that you you know, essentially, your hash rate has dropped.
1357
01:42:52.680 --> 01:42:56.014
1358
01:42:56.315 --> 01:43:04.140
1359
01:43:05.100 --> 01:43:12.864
1360
01:43:13.165 --> 01:43:15.905
mean, trust me that throughout the history,
1361
01:43:16.525 --> 01:43:18.224
all the different pool implementation
1362
01:43:18.844 --> 01:43:21.105
must have had this issue where they actually
1363
01:43:21.485 --> 01:43:21.890
waste
1364
01:43:22.290 --> 01:43:24.150
it, some of the,
1365
01:43:24.690 --> 01:43:30.375
you know, energy because they basically mined something that was not valid. And they realize it. It was a software mistake.
1366
01:43:30.995 --> 01:43:32.535
But by by this feature,
1367
01:43:33.555 --> 01:43:34.055
you
1368
01:43:34.515 --> 01:43:36.055
at the you you provide
1369
01:43:37.310 --> 01:43:43.730
a security feature for for for Bitcoin network because you can choose your own transactions, but it puts more responsibility
1370
01:43:44.190 --> 01:43:45.969
on the software that is distributing
1371
01:43:46.775 --> 01:43:49.275
distributed among miners, that it generates,
1372
01:43:50.615 --> 01:43:51.675
valid templates
1373
01:43:52.215 --> 01:43:53.915
based on their requirements.
1374
01:43:54.730 --> 01:43:58.829
1375
01:43:59.290 --> 01:44:01.790
that screwed up that block, that add added
1376
01:44:02.329 --> 01:44:03.310
added wrong,
1377
01:44:03.785 --> 01:44:05.965
fat fingered something, whatever they did,
1378
01:44:06.425 --> 01:44:11.965
was they actually soul a mind to block, which is, in my understanding, damn near impossible.
1379
01:44:12.870 --> 01:44:13.370
And
1380
01:44:14.470 --> 01:44:15.450
they did that,
1381
01:44:16.070 --> 01:44:23.094
and they lost out on it anyways because and it just went to the next person that or the next mining pool or whomever
1382
01:44:24.035 --> 01:44:25.735
ended up mining the block afterwards.
1383
01:44:26.195 --> 01:44:30.055
So that's what I was that that's more what I was curious about was
1384
01:44:31.050 --> 01:44:32.110
whether or not
1385
01:44:33.770 --> 01:44:40.915
that had been taken into consideration because that could screw up things. But then you're saying that nobody is actually even gonna know
1386
01:44:41.614 --> 01:44:43.315
that you ever screwed up
1387
01:44:43.775 --> 01:44:44.755
the block template.
1388
01:44:46.570 --> 01:44:47.070
You
1389
01:44:47.770 --> 01:44:51.230
1390
01:44:52.010 --> 01:44:55.310
an unfortunate miner that cannot generate valid templates.
1391
01:44:55.915 --> 01:45:04.575
But Got it. Check them out. And and then, the the the pool support may try contacting you. Like, if this is something that is happening
1392
01:45:07.500 --> 01:45:10.880
regularly, then it's a it's a software issue that should be fixed.
1393
01:45:11.420 --> 01:45:12.719
So But Yeah.
1394
01:45:13.765 --> 01:45:16.345
1395
01:45:17.205 --> 01:45:18.825
monitoring this. Like,
1396
01:45:19.285 --> 01:45:23.320
yeah, like like, if you're using v 2 and you're actually doing your own transaction
1397
01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:32.060
you
1398
01:45:32.755 --> 01:45:38.454
you would assume these would be the type of miners that would actually be paying attention to their rejected shares and stuff
1399
01:45:38.755 --> 01:45:48.099
1400
01:45:48.995 --> 01:45:55.015
1401
01:45:55.790 --> 01:45:58.450
buying miners and plugging them in to
1402
01:45:58.910 --> 01:46:01.650
like, the first time I ever opened command mine
1403
01:46:02.030 --> 01:46:03.650
command line in my life
1404
01:46:04.510 --> 01:46:05.010
was
1405
01:46:07.215 --> 01:46:09.795
to install the brains OS software,
1406
01:46:10.975 --> 01:46:12.114
the brains OS
1407
01:46:13.270 --> 01:46:20.969
on the Antminer. So that is the first time I've ever opened command command line in my life. And then now you fast forward
1408
01:46:21.670 --> 01:46:22.820
a a year,
1409
01:46:24.375 --> 01:46:27.995
and I just got Hash rate coming out of my fucking ears.
1410
01:46:29.095 --> 01:46:30.875
1411
01:46:32.719 --> 01:46:33.219
1412
01:46:34.719 --> 01:46:36.020
Oh, I got another question.
1413
01:46:36.719 --> 01:46:39.699
Are you guys bringing push notifications back ever
1414
01:46:41.040 --> 01:46:43.065
on the app, slush pool
1415
01:46:47.685 --> 01:46:48.185
app?
1416
01:46:49.125 --> 01:46:50.745
1417
01:46:52.110 --> 01:46:52.850
1418
01:46:53.250 --> 01:46:53.750
Yeah.
1419
01:46:54.150 --> 01:46:54.650
Yeah.
1420
01:46:55.050 --> 01:46:55.550
Yeah.
1421
01:46:55.950 --> 01:47:02.784
Sorry. I didn't mean to just totally change. Just totally pivot in the middle of my sentence. I was reading Oh, that's okay. Because I
1422
01:47:03.425 --> 01:47:07.605
which I shouldn't have been doing, and a buddy of mine hit hit it up.
1423
01:47:11.280 --> 01:47:16.260
1424
01:47:16.800 --> 01:47:18.074
Because push notifications
1425
01:47:18.534 --> 01:47:21.835
work, in terms of the rewards that you're getting.
1426
01:47:23.815 --> 01:47:25.675
I will check with them. I don't know.
1427
01:47:25.980 --> 01:47:27.360
1428
01:47:28.220 --> 01:47:45.470
1429
01:47:46.750 --> 01:47:47.490
1430
01:47:48.670 --> 01:47:49.410
It's alright.
1431
01:47:50.030 --> 01:47:51.870
1432
01:47:52.190 --> 01:47:55.304
Could multiple pools collude and push the alternative
1433
01:47:55.605 --> 01:47:58.744
templates to include transactions that wouldn't be included otherwise?
1434
01:48:00.620 --> 01:48:06.640
Oh, yeah. Sure. As long as the transactions are valid. Right? The I mean, as long as the network accepts it.
1435
01:48:07.340 --> 01:48:10.445
So there was another one. From what I understand, they all with
1436
01:48:13.405 --> 01:48:15.264
1437
01:48:15.645 --> 01:48:17.085
wouldn't that mean that,
1438
01:48:17.565 --> 01:48:28.340
with these pools, it these would have to be pools that aren't letting their miners do their own transaction selection. You would need pools doing transaction non stratum 1 pools. Yeah. Yeah. So,
1439
01:48:28.935 --> 01:48:33.515
yeah, so you you'd have to have colluding pools that are fighting basically against,
1440
01:48:34.695 --> 01:48:39.739
against the actual people using them, being able to select their own transactions, and then colluding
1441
01:48:40.040 --> 01:48:41.900
to create their own block templates.
1442
01:48:43.719 --> 01:48:54.900
1443
01:48:55.360 --> 01:48:57.620
That is true. That is that could be actually
1444
01:48:58.080 --> 01:49:03.060
one reason that you could start mining on a new block faster than your colleagues.
1445
01:49:05.595 --> 01:49:06.655
The the point,
1446
01:49:07.115 --> 01:49:09.135
that I'm trying to make is that,
1447
01:49:09.835 --> 01:49:10.335
once
1448
01:49:10.635 --> 01:49:12.815
a a new block is found in the network,
1449
01:49:13.290 --> 01:49:17.389
So from that point when the pool knows about it,
1450
01:49:18.570 --> 01:49:20.750
all your shares are going to be rejected
1451
01:49:23.155 --> 01:49:25.495
until you learn about the new template.
1452
01:49:27.635 --> 01:49:30.135
1453
01:49:30.579 --> 01:49:39.320
kinda part of what I was because if you cross if you cross the whole pool a block, then you're penalized for a little while until you can prove that
1454
01:49:40.745 --> 01:49:44.445
what you're using or what you're doing to assemble
1455
01:49:46.800 --> 01:49:53.200
to assemble the block is actually going to be valid next time that you assemble it, then you can then you can start
1456
01:49:53.895 --> 01:49:59.915
1457
01:50:00.295 --> 01:50:11.895
So if you if you, you know, put a piece of crap on my desk and I say, no. I'm not gonna even let you mine this, then you're you won't even be able to work with us. It it's like a contract. You have to agree to
1458
01:50:12.595 --> 01:50:16.455
mine a constructive block for yourself and the pool.
1459
01:50:16.790 --> 01:50:20.389
1460
01:50:21.110 --> 01:50:21.610
the
1461
01:50:22.070 --> 01:50:23.369
consensus rules.
1462
01:50:24.070 --> 01:50:28.054
1463
01:50:28.355 --> 01:50:32.135
or it doesn't follow the consensus rules or it breaks a rule,
1464
01:50:32.870 --> 01:50:34.810
that your pool demands, then
1465
01:50:35.430 --> 01:50:36.410
it'll be rejected.
1466
01:50:36.870 --> 01:50:38.010
Okay. Okay.
1467
01:50:38.390 --> 01:50:51.460
1468
01:50:52.800 --> 01:50:54.180
it's a different structure.
1469
01:50:54.640 --> 01:50:58.875
1470
01:50:59.815 --> 01:51:05.275
It's you know, here, I I will do all these walls. I will sand everything. I'll mud everything.
1471
01:51:06.600 --> 01:51:09.660
Do you agree? And I say, yes. And then you get to work.
1472
01:51:10.200 --> 01:51:10.700
If
1473
01:51:11.400 --> 01:51:12.540
if you just start,
1474
01:51:13.655 --> 01:51:24.750
you you know, if I say no, then, you know, you're you're not even gonna be contracted to work on my house. You're just gonna get back. So it's a sense it's a failure. You're buying you're buying the work.
1475
01:51:25.450 --> 01:51:38.165
1476
01:51:38.750 --> 01:51:48.855
1477
01:51:49.155 --> 01:51:49.655
risk.
1478
01:51:51.235 --> 01:52:07.065
1479
01:52:07.605 --> 01:52:13.145
you're gonna propose me the the plan. And if I agree with it, then then we're off to the races.
1480
01:52:13.710 --> 01:52:15.890
1481
01:52:16.270 --> 01:52:22.370
I say, I'm mining all transactions. I don't care which ones are censored. And I I propose that
1482
01:52:23.275 --> 01:52:23.935
to you,
1483
01:52:24.715 --> 01:52:29.135
and I'm not saying I'm not saying you guys specifically. I'm just saying just arbitrarily.
1484
01:52:31.650 --> 01:52:33.830
I propose that to a mining pool,
1485
01:52:34.610 --> 01:52:35.670
and they say,
1486
01:52:36.530 --> 01:52:37.030
no.
1487
01:52:38.450 --> 01:52:54.370
1488
01:52:56.795 --> 01:52:58.655
acting in bad faith, basically.
1489
01:52:59.355 --> 01:53:04.255
And then right? Like, you're you're preemptively stopping it instead of after the fact.
1490
01:53:04.670 --> 01:53:15.974
1491
01:53:16.355 --> 01:53:16.855
1492
01:53:17.395 --> 01:53:22.135
than me contributing my hash rate to a pool that then excludes
1493
01:53:23.180 --> 01:53:23.680
transactions
1494
01:53:24.540 --> 01:53:30.160
after the block has already been found, and then I have to leave. So you're just telling me straight up
1495
01:53:30.515 --> 01:53:32.055
in the beginning Exactly.
1496
01:53:32.915 --> 01:53:33.415
No.
1497
01:53:33.955 --> 01:53:42.040
We we are excluding these transactions. And if you don't wanna follow those rules, then you need to go somewhere else. Exactly. And that incentivizes
1498
01:53:42.580 --> 01:53:47.159
1499
01:53:47.675 --> 01:53:56.895
transaction, and that transaction has a higher transaction fee than other transactions that are being put on a block, that's gonna incentivize miners to move to a different pool, which literally
1500
01:53:57.310 --> 01:53:57.810
deincentivizes
1501
01:53:58.270 --> 01:53:59.889
being a censoring pool.
1502
01:54:02.909 --> 01:54:04.290
1503
01:54:06.265 --> 01:54:12.365
1504
01:54:12.830 --> 01:54:19.410
that the that the pool isn't the one constructing the block in the first place. It's kinda like their hands are clean.
1505
01:54:23.175 --> 01:54:27.275
1506
01:54:27.655 --> 01:54:28.934
originally to even
1507
01:54:29.470 --> 01:54:32.930
1508
01:54:34.350 --> 01:54:43.625
And then so that goes to a further question that r two, in the comments mentioned, who said he was gonna go to bed about 45 minutes ago, and he's still listening.
1509
01:54:45.280 --> 01:54:48.340
There's this pool, they're tiny, Laurentia pool,
1510
01:54:48.880 --> 01:54:52.820
that's run by Mind Farm and Buy, and they pay out the Coinbase transaction,
1511
01:54:53.145 --> 01:54:55.645
so they don't actually custody any funds.
1512
01:54:56.905 --> 01:55:05.520
I'm kind of curious on Jan's opinion of of that because, I mean, I think they're the only pool that's actually paying out directly from Coinbase. Are you aware of this?
1513
01:55:06.220 --> 01:55:13.125
1514
01:55:13.905 --> 01:55:14.885
box space,
1515
01:55:16.625 --> 01:55:17.445
and basically
1516
01:55:18.340 --> 01:55:24.440
reducing the the amount of fees. Right? So if you think about it, that you have
1517
01:55:26.005 --> 01:55:26.825
couple 1,000
1518
01:55:27.365 --> 01:55:36.040
minors that you're supposed to pay out, and you may not be left with any any space for regular transactions. So you would essentially
1519
01:55:36.660 --> 01:55:38.120
be mining, gigantic
1520
01:55:38.420 --> 01:55:40.200
and gigantic empty blocks,
1521
01:55:41.780 --> 01:55:42.840
with a huge,
1522
01:55:43.765 --> 01:55:44.665
fan out,
1523
01:55:45.445 --> 01:55:46.505
Coinbase transaction.
1524
01:55:48.885 --> 01:55:50.585
1525
01:55:50.885 --> 01:55:52.345
So I thought about that.
1526
01:55:53.090 --> 01:55:57.909
I've heard about this. I haven't I haven't deep dove into it at all or anything like that.
1527
01:55:58.449 --> 01:55:58.769
But
1528
01:56:01.345 --> 01:56:02.005
so it's
1529
01:56:03.105 --> 01:56:03.605
completely
1530
01:56:05.185 --> 01:56:08.245
1531
01:56:09.739 --> 01:56:11.039
1532
01:56:11.340 --> 01:56:12.159
home miner
1533
01:56:13.340 --> 01:56:16.880
because you can't pay somebody out their block reward
1534
01:56:18.145 --> 01:56:19.925
if they're mining on an s nine.
1535
01:56:20.545 --> 01:56:26.244
1536
01:56:26.700 --> 01:56:31.360
yourself because you you aren't paying enough transaction fee for it to even be worth paying.
1537
01:56:31.740 --> 01:56:34.240
Like, you'd have to be here. Whole your whole block.
1538
01:56:34.725 --> 01:56:40.824
1539
01:56:41.525 --> 01:56:42.585
if you're a
1540
01:56:43.125 --> 01:56:44.090
a small
1541
01:56:44.430 --> 01:56:44.930
miner,
1542
01:56:45.270 --> 01:56:46.010
it's dust.
1543
01:56:46.470 --> 01:56:48.170
The only thing you're doing is paying
1544
01:56:49.110 --> 01:57:07.470
unless unless I'm missing something on that, like You're not. That's the issue. You're literally censoring yourself by not paying enough transaction fees to even, like, get your stuff through. You're mining for the miners. So you're showing the miners and that's it. For the listeners that are confused, we're not talking about Coinbase, the exchange. Coinbase
1545
01:57:07.850 --> 01:57:11.070
1546
01:57:11.515 --> 01:57:14.575
which is the transaction where the miners pay themselves.
1547
01:57:15.035 --> 01:57:18.255
What? So that has that has no fees
1548
01:57:18.850 --> 01:57:21.590
for the actual transaction, but the problem is that
1549
01:57:21.970 --> 01:57:30.605
1550
01:57:31.385 --> 01:57:40.659
and all the fees of all the transactions are added to this output. So so the block value the the little literally, the the the amount being
1551
01:57:41.114 --> 01:57:44.495
inflated because that's the emission. Right? Bitcoin is 6.25
1552
01:57:45.035 --> 01:57:48.015
plus all the fees that are, in the transactions
1553
01:57:48.650 --> 01:57:49.390
that have been,
1554
01:57:50.010 --> 01:57:51.310
put into the block.
1555
01:57:52.890 --> 01:57:57.390
So you're completely right with the dust. So it works. Like, technically, it works.
1556
01:57:57.995 --> 01:58:01.275
The problem is it doesn't scale, and it has all these,
1557
01:58:01.995 --> 01:58:09.440
side effects. So you would have to have, I don't know, just a couple of miners, big miners, no small miners,
1558
01:58:11.579 --> 01:58:13.679
or you would have to somehow, like,
1559
01:58:14.135 --> 01:58:14.635
interleave
1560
01:58:15.095 --> 01:58:15.595
the,
1561
01:58:16.375 --> 01:58:17.035
the rewards
1562
01:58:17.575 --> 01:58:25.920
so not every miner would be included in a certain block. But I I don't wanna step into this because I'm not familiar with the exact algorithm that is,
1563
01:58:26.460 --> 01:58:28.160
being used in warranty approval.
1564
01:58:28.620 --> 01:58:30.880
1565
01:58:31.285 --> 01:58:33.225
Mindfarm Buy, and I don't wanna
1566
01:58:33.685 --> 01:58:35.145
speak for him, but
1567
01:58:35.685 --> 01:58:40.745
I consider him a friend. I I I think that he understands that it's a major trade off,
1568
01:58:42.830 --> 01:58:44.450
but the concern is
1569
01:58:46.190 --> 01:58:49.570
if they start going aft if if government start going after
1570
01:58:50.175 --> 01:58:50.675
mining
1571
01:58:51.295 --> 01:58:52.675
pools for being custodians,
1572
01:58:53.055 --> 01:58:54.035
they don't have,
1573
01:58:55.775 --> 01:58:58.035
we wouldn't really have another solution besides
1574
01:58:59.135 --> 01:58:59.635
that.
1575
01:59:04.719 --> 01:59:05.940
1576
01:59:06.480 --> 01:59:08.225
1577
01:59:08.525 --> 01:59:11.345
if if we can avoid it, then avoid it.
1578
01:59:15.650 --> 01:59:22.230
1579
01:59:24.215 --> 01:59:27.435
block debate, but rather than debating nodes, you're
1580
01:59:28.935 --> 01:59:29.755
debating mining.
1581
01:59:30.920 --> 01:59:34.540
You're gonna have to you're gonna have to centralize mining again at that point.
1582
01:59:35.480 --> 01:59:48.785
1583
01:59:49.230 --> 01:59:52.530
It's not even really a question. It's a statement about this guy,
1584
01:59:52.909 --> 01:59:56.210
K Joe, in the comments said that, you know, Blockware
1585
01:59:56.945 --> 01:59:59.845
shut down the facility that his miners were hosted in,
1586
02:00:01.265 --> 02:00:02.965
and now he's shit out of luck.
1587
02:00:05.060 --> 02:00:10.280
I'm curious what what the panelists think about this new, like, hosted mining phenomenon.
1588
02:00:11.140 --> 02:00:14.615
Blockware is one of the main ones who do it. Encompass is another one.
1589
02:00:15.315 --> 02:00:17.315
What are your thoughts on that? I
1590
02:00:18.595 --> 02:00:19.575
1591
02:00:20.755 --> 02:00:21.895
I don't understand
1592
02:00:24.869 --> 02:00:25.770
the the financials
1593
02:00:26.469 --> 02:00:27.929
of something like Compass.
1594
02:00:29.110 --> 02:00:35.515
So you give them I think the last the last numbers I saw somebody was asking me about was you give them $24,000
1595
02:00:36.375 --> 02:00:37.035
up front.
1596
02:00:37.415 --> 02:00:38.395
You give them
1597
02:00:38.720 --> 02:00:39.220
something
1598
02:00:39.760 --> 02:00:40.580
like $6,000
1599
02:00:41.200 --> 02:00:41.780
a month
1600
02:00:42.160 --> 02:00:43.220
for 6 months,
1601
02:00:43.600 --> 02:00:46.500
and they put one miner online for you
1602
02:00:47.255 --> 02:00:47.755
starting
1603
02:00:48.295 --> 02:00:48.795
February
1604
02:00:49.175 --> 02:00:50.315
of 2022.
1605
02:00:51.815 --> 02:01:00.270
1606
02:01:01.210 --> 02:01:04.670
1607
02:01:07.614 --> 02:01:13.875
1608
02:01:14.260 --> 02:01:15.240
join Compass.
1609
02:01:16.100 --> 02:01:17.800
1610
02:01:18.180 --> 02:01:21.720
1611
02:01:22.355 --> 02:01:24.455
Compass back in November, you could get
1612
02:01:25.235 --> 02:01:27.015
you would get, like, you know,
1613
02:01:27.875 --> 02:01:39.150
decent profits, and you'd be able to turn on a miner at that moment. But mining is so incredibly profitable right now that they don't have the capacity for it, so their miners aren't even turning on until
1614
02:01:39.864 --> 02:01:42.045
May of next year. So, yeah, it's it's
1615
02:01:42.505 --> 02:01:45.785
a it's a crapshoot. I mean Is it some kind of weird,
1616
02:01:46.425 --> 02:01:46.925
1617
02:01:48.920 --> 02:01:50.860
the hell is it called? Layaway program
1618
02:01:51.320 --> 02:01:54.460
or something where, like, you give them all the money up front,
1619
02:01:55.080 --> 02:01:57.020
and they they go buy
1620
02:01:58.034 --> 02:02:03.415
whatever contracts they can get. I don't get it. It makes I can't figure out the business model.
1621
02:02:03.955 --> 02:02:06.215
1622
02:02:07.130 --> 02:02:12.430
really broke when they ran out of capacity because, like, there's so much demand for miners that,
1623
02:02:13.370 --> 02:02:23.385
like I like you said, they're not even turning on until May of next year, which is ridiculous. Like, am I am I willing to send them that much money to turn on the card? Sending them you're already sending them
1624
02:02:24.270 --> 02:02:27.250
1625
02:02:27.710 --> 02:02:34.744
$6,000 a month or don't quote me on that. I I honestly can't remember exactly how much money it was.
1626
02:02:35.125 --> 02:02:47.390
It's way more. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not like that. It's just, it's just a market thing. Right? They do it every single month, and then they don't even turn your miners. They don't even turn one miner on for you for 6 months,
1627
02:02:47.885 --> 02:02:50.545
and then you only get one additional miner
1628
02:02:51.005 --> 02:03:03.350
1629
02:03:03.730 --> 02:03:12.215
and then it'll just go on and, like, you pay what, you know, it's like, $9 for an s 19 or whatever it is, and then it goes online on whatever time and then you start paying monthly.
1630
02:03:13.450 --> 02:03:26.645
But but what what I've kinda come to understand is that your your average home user that is not technically savvy, they have maybe a laptop that they barely function with, and they know enough about it and they wanna get in on it.
1631
02:03:27.030 --> 02:03:31.370
That's a reasonable way for somebody that just doesn't know anything
1632
02:03:32.710 --> 02:03:36.410
to operate it, you know, that's as close as they're gonna get to actually mining
1633
02:03:36.755 --> 02:03:39.495
Bitcoin on their own and not just purchasing it outright.
1634
02:03:39.955 --> 02:03:50.040
Yeah. And I've I've had a couple of friends do that and, you know, he had a lot of money to throw at it and no technical abilities at all. And so mining at home, even if you have the capacity,
1635
02:03:50.980 --> 02:03:56.280
he just doesn't know how to do it. And so he went in on Compass, but, yeah, the demand is just
1636
02:03:57.045 --> 02:04:01.364
insane. And so but even if we just look at just a couple months ago, when the
1637
02:04:02.085 --> 02:04:07.040
when everything plummeted down, you could get a s 19 for 6 grand, 30 doubled in price.
1638
02:04:07.580 --> 02:04:19.835
1639
02:04:20.455 --> 02:04:29.640
but it looks it looks so shitty just because they don't have the facilities that can plug these miners in yet because it takes so much time to plug them in. But if you definitely.
1640
02:04:29.995 --> 02:04:31.775
1641
02:04:32.475 --> 02:04:40.060
1642
02:04:41.320 --> 02:04:44.860
Bitcoin wasn't as profitable to mine with. You could get it plugged in today,
1643
02:04:45.880 --> 02:04:48.780
but your mind if you buy a miner through them
1644
02:04:49.705 --> 02:04:50.025
now,
1645
02:04:50.585 --> 02:04:51.725
you know, September,
1646
02:04:52.345 --> 02:05:04.240