June 24, 2021
CD27: bitcoin tuesday unsanctioned with evan kaloudis
EPISODE: 0.2.7
BLOCK: 688460
PRICE: 3050 sats per dollar
TOPICS: enjoying a bitcoin tuesday without odell
@evankaloudis: https://twitter.com/evankaloudis
@nvk: https://twitter.com/nvk
@openoms: https://twitter.com/openoms
@Jestopher_BTC: https://twitter.com/Jestopher_BTC
@thechaz: https://twitter.com/thechaz
streamed live every tuesday:
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support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: http://citadel.chat/
00:34 - Introduction and Bitcoin Tuesday
01:14 - Changes in the podcast and the absence of Matt O'Dell
02:20 - Shout out to Jessica and new sponsors
46:30 - Using lightning with external wallets
48:02 - Closing lightning channels and coin joint transactions
53:15 - Improving user interfaces for lightning and join market
01:29:29 - Running your own node and setting up your own market
01:31:15 - Privacy and surveillance technology
01:34:02 - Using liquid and lightning at the same time
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:10:20 PM
Duration: 8293.59
Channels: 1
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Alright.
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What's up, freaks?
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday.
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Damn. I thought I had a quirk pop.
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It's a screw off right here. It's a Yamazaki single malt.
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It's okay.
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This is Evan Kaludis with y'all.
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Bring you
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the officially
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unofficial
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sanctioned but unsanctioned.
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Sydel Dispatch.
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The show about actionable
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Bitcoin discussion. This is episode 26
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with an asterisk.
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Say it's an asterisk because we're making some changes around here.
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Maybe wondering.
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I've got some pretty good options. Where's Matt O'Dell?
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Where's that guy? I miss him.
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And,
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to be truthful, I don't know. That's got some pretty good OPSEC.
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You know, he may have been detained at a border
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or who knows what. Just trying to save face. Violating money transmitter laws, stirring dissent, maybe.
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Or he might just actually be on vacation like you said, or
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he's trying to save face. I don't know.
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But I'm pretty sure he did not defect to Monero like we all suspected he would,
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by this point.
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But, anyway,
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really excited to chat with y'all today. I just had an itch to just chat with all the freaks on this Bitcoin Tuesday in lieu
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of an actual episode. So really happy to talk with y'all,
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in this sort of new format. Right?
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I wanna give a shout out to start off to Jessica.
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He's in here, I hope,
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recording the session.
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Hopefully, we could get it out on
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the traditional dispatch mediums.
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Jessica runs an awesome website called Ambose.
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It's a lightning graph explorer.
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They've got some great visuals. He's working with Tony from,
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ThunderHub on that. So go check it out if you get a chance. That's amboss.space
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ambossspace.
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And, yeah, I also gotta give a shout out to our new sponsors
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making some other changes on the show.
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We're introducing mid roll ads, so, you know, stay tuned for the mid roll advertisements.
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I've got some pretty good sponsors.
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Bisc, of course, you know, everyone loves Bisc.
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You know, great decentralized trade platform.
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We also got some gems of partners in BlockFi,
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JPMorgan,
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DHS. So listen to their ad roll reads,
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middle of the show, so that should be fun.
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And, Yeah. This is gonna be a much different dispatch than usual.
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As you guys obviously know, we're on Twitter Spaces today, so we're gonna have a bunch of guests on, probably rotating in and out.
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I put in a lot of invites out today. So
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I invited Rodolfo.
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I invited Open Arms,
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Kai Kawamoto,
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invited Pedro, the real Pedro, not phony Pedro,
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Jack Dorsey.
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Doubt he'll jump in, but who knows? And, Klaus Schwab from the World Economic Forum. I know he's a fan of the show. He might pop in.
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But, anyway, there's no fixed topic for today, so we're gonna just see where the guests
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want to up and take it. Just hoping we riff for about
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an hour,
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see what everyone's up to, and then we'll open it up to the larger audience,
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do some q and a or
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just see where things go.
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So, without further ado, let's bring on some guests to the stage.
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Start with Chaz. Chaz from Lightning Junky's.
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Shit talking moment here for you.
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We we gotta get you a setup. Chaz, you with us today?
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Out loud and having your phone With you.
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One shit talking moment here for you.
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We we gotta get you a setup where you're not just playing music
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out loud and having your phone pick it up. It sounded I know it's awful. Right? But
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I I think that we'll get past the copyright services.
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No promises there. It sounds like
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great. This is fun.
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Yeah. No no visual component, unfortunately,
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on Twitter spaces. So we're gonna have to read off,
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you know, the prices and all our fun graphs that we usually have just over there.
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So, I'm sure everyone just noticing how, we've got a nice little dip going on today.
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Woke up, and I saw the price was at about, what, something like 29,000.
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So let's check-in on the prices to kick things off with.
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We've got
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this listing the index price at 32,496.
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And,
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let's see what the exchanges
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have it at.
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You
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want a crypto watch? Check out what BTCUSD
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for Kraken is.
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We are at 32,448.
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So, yeah, nice little dip.
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I hope you guys were able to snag around 29 if you were, like to do that kind of trading.
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But, yeah, it's just been complete pandemonium
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as far as,
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you know, the normies' perceptions of things. People saying, oh, man.
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Price has gone and crashed 50% in the last 2 months. What are you guys doing over there?
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Yeah. It's just like moments like this in the cycle
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that really, really test how,
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you know, how determined you are, how dedicated
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your real will. And, I I think
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at times like this, we end up seeing some pretty crazy behavior by,
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you know, some otherwise,
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reputable people in
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space. Maybe they were over leveraged,
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lost some money.
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Now they start promoting some questionable products in the space.
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It's quite sad, actually.
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But,
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you know, at least we get to see who's in it for the technology.
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So,
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it's it's,
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always fun to go through these dips. But hey. I don't know about you guys, but I still think we're gonna crack an all time high again this year. So let's see how it pans out between,
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you know, previous cycles and where we've been,
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you know, the economic climate,
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with inflation,
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Joe Biden's
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prepping prepping another round of stimmy checks for
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for families in the United States.
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You know, Bitcoin is really our safe haven in in the midst of all this other uncertainty that's out in the world.
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So god bless it even if it does happen
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to tumble down 50%
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in the middle of a good old rally.
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I honestly think that the price
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isn't that relevant. It's probably the the boringest thing going on right now.
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I think all the things happening on on lightning are far more interesting than worrying about number go up, down, sideways, wherever. It doesn't I don't it hasn't really changed much for me.
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Yeah. I mean, it doesn't really affect you unless you're,
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you're you're trying to sell, which I know bunch of us here are just hanging on for dear life. I see a bunch of hodlers in the chat down here. So,
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yeah. I mean, the fundamentals of Bitcoin haven't changed. If anything, they've gotten stronger.
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I mean, we've got 2
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humongous pieces of news that have come out this past month. Right?
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We've got Taproot activated, which means we're gonna have,
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act well, it's got it's locked in, and it's gonna be activated in November. But, you know, it's it's guaranteed now.
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And, you know, we also have small nation states
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adopting it and passing legal tender laws for it. So
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big picture. How can you be bearish?
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So, we we also have, Rodolfo. Rodolfo joined us. Really happy to see how you're doing today at BK.
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Good.
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I, I kinda got the times twisted.
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Yeah. We all got our times twisted a little bit, but I'm glad, you know, we got a pretty good showing today. And I'm happy to have you join us today. So what's what's going on?
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We we missed you in Miami.
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I know, dude. I am in the
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in the Canada,
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gulag,
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but
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but I'm north and remote.
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So, like, COVID,
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idiocity doesn't exist here.
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That's good.
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Neither do people.
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It's great.
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Yeah. I hear you guys are, listening restrictions a bit. We're talking to who was it?
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Ben Sessions. He was talking about having to, like, quarantine or whatever. West is and the west is a bit better.
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The the problem is, like, Ontario is still quite bad when you come back.
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Like, you have to quarantine for 2 weeks in in, like, at home,
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but you might have to do a hotel thing when you come in. It's like a bunch of bullshit.
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Yeah. That sucks. Yeah.
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Yeah. Hopefully, things liberalize, but, yeah. Who knows in this crazy mixed up world?
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You know?
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The control freaks, they're everywhere.
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You really can't avoid them. Yeah. That's right.
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Yeah. Saw that video today that was going around on Bitcoin Twitter with,
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the guy proposing
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we, do bioengineering
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to make people
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allergic to steak. Like Just time takes Wow. You know? Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know what? Like, I I thankfully,
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people who think like that don't reproduce.
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So,
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like, just time takes care of it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. That's the one upside.
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You know, there where's that other guy that's a big critic of BTC on Twitter? He's like There is a tick. There is a tick disease that makes you allergic to red meat. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about is, like, the the womb star tick or something. Yeah. What a piece of shit.
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Yeah. So.
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Oh, man.
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So we also had, open arms. I I said he got an invite. Looks like he He just showed up.
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I think he had some connection problems. So Oh, okay. So I think that's the reason Jack Dorsey is not coming today because he would get an earful about me complaining about how spaces doesn't work and crashes your phone. You can't connect.
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But, you know, it it just otherwise makes for a pretty awesome experience, all things considered. I know a lot of people are going pretty hard on, Clubhouse this, this year.
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I'm gonna I'm gonna have to say something.
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So Taproot is not guaranteed yet
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at all
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until the miners start actually mining blocks and enforcing Taproot in, like,
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very reasonable amounts of hash rate,
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it's still sort of, like
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you know, there's a very good chance
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that they come through, the promise,
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but
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speedy trial has no teeth. Right?
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Don't don't trust her. So, you're expecting some shenanigans to come up this year? No. No. Not really. I mean but, you know, it's rough consensus. Right? Don't don't trust, verify. So until I see
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mind blocks
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over, say, 80 to 90% of the hash rate,
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I wouldn't put any money on it.
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Well, to that, I say I'm I'm glad Matt paid me out on the 3rd period lock in.
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So we got that going for us at least.
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Now what would you say to users that are like, no way, man. I upgraded my node to 0 point
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21.1
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or whatever,
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and, my my node is validating,
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no. It doesn't matter. Your your node for for soft forks like this,
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it's it doesn't matter
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as much as you think it does because
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the enforcing
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of soft forks,
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like, they they really
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lock in,
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with, with,
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locked through, that would have been different. It's tricky.
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Now if we had the miners,
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lock in,
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with, with,
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lot true, that would have been different.
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But,
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yeah.
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So, like, it's it's pretty like, it it's looking good, but, like, I I'll just, like, sort of, like, caution people that, like because of the nature of how Bitcoin consensus work and
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and also the the, like,
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the game theory on on, like, all these actors,
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you know, nothing is guaranteed until it's in the blocks. Right?
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Yeah. That's for sure.
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So, yeah, I remain, cautiously optimistic.
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Let's see what will happen from here. But,
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yeah, I mean, there's plenty of rooms for shenanigans. Like,
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we really won't know for sure until
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it's November and and we have it. And Yeah. You know, the transactions are being processed.
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And,
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you know, we're we're using transactions
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that are using Taproot. So, I guess not even implementations
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yet. Right? So it's it's like, so it's
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okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's all still coming together. So a lot of things still up in the air. I I saw that maybe,
229
00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:54.245
the address type had been settled upon, but there's still a lot of other things that are up in the air. So we'll see how it shakes out. I I I can't I I've been sort of, like, a bit distant for the last
230
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month, month and a half.
231
00:14:57.430 --> 00:15:00.010
Are they gonna use a Segwit V2 addresses?
232
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I'm not sure. I think it's gonna be, they're gonna be, like, b c one q or something is the the last thing I saw. Yeah. So, it's it's gonna look like Segwit native Segwit, but, you know, one letter up. So, yeah, I'm sure that won't be confusing.
233
00:15:21.645 --> 00:15:25.425
Yes. It's it's gonna be interesting to see as the different wallets
234
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and exchanges.
235
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I'll try to make sense of it.
236
00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:31.820
And, you know, ultimately, adoption depends on
237
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on them. I mean, look, this year, we just saw Segwit get adopted by,
238
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like, Blockchain.com
239
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after, what, 4 years.
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So,
241
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do they have a hierarchical deterministic,
242
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addresses yet? BIP 32?
243
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I'm not sure. I have not used
244
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blockchain.com,
245
00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:57.735
my friend. You know you know there's a couple better wallets out on the market now. So, you know, I haven't had Really?
246
00:15:58.834 --> 00:16:00.214
There are a few. I mean,
247
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you know, that that space has definitely made some strides at least.
248
00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.954
So, Rodolfo, I got a question from a freak in my DMs.
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Have you heard of any Canadian Internet news today, something about some sort of censorship bill being passed? Oh, yeah. The the
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Kapo san,
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he,
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he he he shoved through this bill,
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and, of course, the the commie,
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slash union party voted with them and so did the greens.
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So
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they, it it's essentially now
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well, once it's made it into law and stuff,
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they will be able to
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censor
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private accounts where they couldn't before.
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Right?
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Yeah. And they're they're saying that it's only for, like, big accounts and things like that that are acting as if they're news networks and stuff. It's all bullshit. Right? It's saying Like, on social media?
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Yeah. Yeah. So they are gonna have the powers to, like, censor my Twitter if they wanted to.
264
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Yeah. You better watch
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out. He's off on the cash flow jokes,
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Right.
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Man. Listen. This is the kind of bill that that backs backfires. Right? It's almost, like,
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fun that they're trying to do something stupid like this, you know, because
269
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censoring the Internet always works. Right?
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Yeah. I mean, it's it's built to route around roadblocks.
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Let's see how things shake up. But, you know, we got this big problem of centralization on these big platforms,
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you know, just like the one we're talking on right now.
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That's it. If Dorsey or one of his shareholders doesn't like something we're saying, like, Bitcoin Tuesday is not existing on Twitter Spaces anymore. So I mean, come on. Give the guy a little bit more cred. But,
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you know,
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like, private platforms are entitled to run it however they want. Right? I'm I'm Oh, yes. Certainly. Deliver that.
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But but in a geopolitical
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context, they have they're subject to so much pressure, not only just from their shareholders, but from other parties and governments. It's it's really a shit show, and that's why it's important to have, like, these decentralized platforms. Like, you ran Bitcoin Hackers on, Yeah.
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On Mastodon, which is a federated network. Really cool. And, it's also why we champion stuff like Blue Sky that they're trying to work on that Twitter, make it decentralized. I think they're making, like, an honest effort at that. What what sucks in networks social networks is they're, like
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like, half the fun is having
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the people who are not part of your in group
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partaking in conversations. Right? So, like, you know, dunking on Rubini. Right? He's not gonna come up with the hackers.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, it it's hard to, like
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the public square needs to be public. Right? And you and you want everybody else in it too even if you don't like them.
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So it it's not an easy problem to solve. It's not just the technology itself. It's like the the social sort of connections there.
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Yeah. Of course. I mean, it's one thing to make a network,
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decentralized, but then it's another to, a, make it usable. I mean, I bet we could both speak to our challenges building Bitcoin products. Right? But also having a community come to it, and that'd be like
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the,
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the
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town square where people have their discussions. So,
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there yeah. There's a lot of challenges. Even you nail it technologically,
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the UX and the social angles are are immensely difficult problems. So Yeah. We're down there. Right? Like,
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most people,
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like,
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as it seems to, they want censorship. Right? They want
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a lot of moderation control. They want all this crap. Like, governments in a way are
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I I can't remember who said it, but, like, you know, most people don't want freedom. They just want a better sell. Right?
297
00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:11.745
Yeah. They want better amenities in the sell. Right? That's right. Yeah.
298
00:20:12.765 --> 00:20:15.105
So while while we still have you here, Rodolfo,
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any updates on
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Canadian
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vaccine passports?
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So what I think they're gonna do is is sort of like a war of attrition. Right?
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They're they're not gonna do, like,
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like, an official passport per se.
305
00:20:33.235 --> 00:20:36.855
But so far, as I understand, is that they created an app
306
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that, like,
307
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:45.300
if you want to to travel without restrictions, you have to upload your your vaccine receipt, essentially. Right?
308
00:20:45.975 --> 00:20:50.955
Gotcha. And and then you don't have to quarantine. You don't have to do this. You don't have to do that. Right?
309
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But,
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and I also think that countries
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where Canada,
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can sort of swing their dick around, they would just say you can't, like, get visas to come to Canada without vaccine. But then countries like that Canada is on the the weak side, right, they will totally sort of let them through without vaccines. They're just gonna have to probably quarantine.
313
00:21:14.159 --> 00:21:19.385
So they're just gonna try to, like, through attrition, make most people vaccinate. It's
314
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funny that Canada doesn't have enough vaccines
315
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to do it.
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So it's kind of like
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a a tricky one for them to to to sort it out.
318
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Now if I wanna visit personally,
319
00:21:34.524 --> 00:21:38.065
do I have to I have to show proof of vaccination, and do I have to quarantine?
320
00:21:38.764 --> 00:21:39.884
Say I'm coming from,
321
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from New York. So US.
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So I don't think,
323
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yeah, you should be able to come because I think they opened the borders already.
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But
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if you don't want to quarantine,
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with
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partner countries or whatever the fuck, if you show your vaccine
328
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stamps,
329
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you don't have to quarantine. But then
330
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if you don't have
331
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vaccine or or stamps or whatever,
332
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then you do have to quarantine.
333
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I think they're they're getting rid of the gulag soon, which was some
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rented hotels that were, like, absolute,
335
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like, shit,
336
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where people had to go for 2, 3 days and do 50 tests or whatever.
337
00:22:27.815 --> 00:22:30.875
And now I think what's gonna happen is if you're a Canadian
338
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resident, when you come back and you don't have vaccines, you have to stay home for 2 weeks.
339
00:22:37.170 --> 00:22:38.390
Gotcha. Okay.
340
00:22:38.850 --> 00:22:41.510
That makes a lot of sense. But you should be able to come now.
341
00:22:42.290 --> 00:22:44.470
Yeah. I mean, I I've been meaning to visit, so
342
00:22:45.675 --> 00:22:47.775
let you know when I'm in that neck of the woods.
343
00:22:48.395 --> 00:22:52.575
You know, I also bumped into that tikinis guy. I forget his name. He's in Miami.
344
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Every every time I saw him, I saw him bumped into him, like, 3 or 4 times. I'm like, oh, man. I gotta go to Canada and get some of this food.
345
00:23:00.184 --> 00:23:05.965
So, yeah. I'll let you know, my friend, when I make it up there. May maybe you take me hunting and you're part of the wilderness.
346
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That's right.
347
00:23:09.710 --> 00:23:10.590
Alright. So,
348
00:23:11.070 --> 00:23:15.650
would you mind if I jumped in here really asked and asked NVK a question?
349
00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:18.050
Yeah. Go for it, Jeff.
350
00:23:18.915 --> 00:23:21.895
So I know this isn't lightning Friday, but,
351
00:23:22.835 --> 00:23:27.270
what's your what's your current status on lightning network hardware, man?
352
00:23:29.510 --> 00:23:30.650
So so Lightning,
353
00:23:31.750 --> 00:23:32.970
has some inherent
354
00:23:33.270 --> 00:23:34.650
issues around hardware
355
00:23:35.015 --> 00:23:35.515
because
356
00:23:35.975 --> 00:23:37.434
Lightning requires statefulness.
357
00:23:37.815 --> 00:23:38.315
Right?
358
00:23:38.695 --> 00:23:39.835
Like chain state.
359
00:23:40.455 --> 00:23:43.275
So it's very hard to make air gap
360
00:23:43.790 --> 00:23:44.290
solutions
361
00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:45.410
state.
362
00:23:45.870 --> 00:23:46.370
Right?
363
00:23:46.990 --> 00:23:47.310
So,
364
00:23:48.030 --> 00:23:56.075
so it it's just like so it starts from that premise. Right? Okay. Fine. So you can connect the code card to the computer and use it via USB.
365
00:23:57.895 --> 00:23:58.395
I
366
00:23:58.890 --> 00:24:04.110
I was under the impression that some people have open and closed channels using Electrum,
367
00:24:06.410 --> 00:24:08.510
with a cold card as the signer.
368
00:24:08.915 --> 00:24:10.215
I haven't tried it myself,
369
00:24:11.555 --> 00:24:13.095
but I would start there.
370
00:24:14.115 --> 00:24:14.855
And then
371
00:24:16.450 --> 00:24:18.230
if somebody can make
372
00:24:18.610 --> 00:24:19.670
a PSBT,
373
00:24:22.690 --> 00:24:23.590
sort of glue
374
00:24:24.485 --> 00:24:24.985
program
375
00:24:25.365 --> 00:24:26.345
or or
376
00:24:26.885 --> 00:24:29.385
some, some PR on Electrum or whatever,
377
00:24:30.725 --> 00:24:32.585
we should be able to sign it.
378
00:24:33.100 --> 00:24:35.680
Right? The the biggest bottleneck is this.
379
00:24:36.060 --> 00:24:37.520
We don't do stuff
380
00:24:37.900 --> 00:24:39.120
that is not standard,
381
00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:43.495
period. If it's not a bit, we're not gonna probably support it,
382
00:24:44.755 --> 00:24:51.390
because we want things to be a bit more future proof. Right? We don't wanna create our own way of signing lightning or whatever.
383
00:24:51.770 --> 00:24:52.270
So
384
00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:53.790
we use PSBT
385
00:24:54.250 --> 00:24:59.035
as the sole way of getting stuff in and out of cold card for signature.
386
00:24:59.495 --> 00:25:00.395
So if somebody
387
00:25:00.775 --> 00:25:01.275
makes
388
00:25:01.655 --> 00:25:03.674
a opening or closing channel,
389
00:25:04.760 --> 00:25:05.260
PSBT
390
00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:07.159
file for lack of,
391
00:25:08.120 --> 00:25:09.820
explanation here, Depas,
392
00:25:10.679 --> 00:25:11.159
let's,
393
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:13.179
that that should be signable
394
00:25:13.915 --> 00:25:18.655
because it is a standard Bitcoin transaction. Right? It's just multisync transaction.
395
00:25:21.399 --> 00:25:23.740
And then going forward, though,
396
00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:27.419
we do support Libsack. Right? So,
397
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.155
we are using the the Libsack, the k one. Right? So so the the the master of that,
398
00:25:33.695 --> 00:25:34.995
of that, Lib.
399
00:25:35.855 --> 00:25:36.595
And then,
400
00:25:37.990 --> 00:25:41.370
we just we're just too swamped to to to mess around,
401
00:25:42.310 --> 00:25:45.850
but, people interested in messing around, they could try to load
402
00:25:46.545 --> 00:25:47.585
the the z,
403
00:25:47.985 --> 00:25:50.565
the z k one, which is the experimental
404
00:25:51.025 --> 00:25:51.525
Libsack,
405
00:25:52.225 --> 00:25:53.925
and that one can do
406
00:25:54.600 --> 00:26:04.845
all the things that people want to do with the coming features. Right? So all the top of it stuff, all the snore stuff, and all all those things. Sweet.
407
00:26:06.184 --> 00:26:08.605
But, again, it it needs to be PSBT
408
00:26:09.145 --> 00:26:09.645
route.
409
00:26:11.065 --> 00:26:12.605
Do you see yourself doing,
410
00:26:12.909 --> 00:26:20.529
you know, more lightning stuff as time goes on just by, like, a byproduct of, you know, things improving and things like that?
411
00:26:23.505 --> 00:26:24.005
Statefulness
412
00:26:24.385 --> 00:26:27.125
and I mean so I I like,
413
00:26:27.585 --> 00:26:29.605
Lightning is super cool. Right?
414
00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:31.529
I think,
415
00:26:32.149 --> 00:26:34.169
personally, the future of Lightning,
416
00:26:34.789 --> 00:26:36.409
especially because of its inherent,
417
00:26:38.070 --> 00:26:38.570
statefulness
418
00:26:39.110 --> 00:26:39.610
and
419
00:26:40.014 --> 00:26:40.514
lower
420
00:26:40.815 --> 00:26:41.315
amount,
421
00:26:42.255 --> 00:26:44.674
actual value amount transaction ness,
422
00:26:46.495 --> 00:26:49.154
it's more of like a phone wallet fit
423
00:26:50.080 --> 00:26:53.300
or or a server sort of side fit. Right?
424
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.620
I think that's more where things will go.
425
00:26:57.925 --> 00:26:58.585
I think
426
00:26:59.605 --> 00:27:01.065
the large majority
427
00:27:01.365 --> 00:27:02.105
of lightning
428
00:27:02.565 --> 00:27:06.505
stuff for consumers will be custodial or semi custodial
429
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.740
because the aside from privacy considerations,
430
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:16.380
the risk of financial loss is much smaller. Right?
431
00:27:17.195 --> 00:27:17.695
The
432
00:27:18.395 --> 00:27:21.535
you don't have to be concerned about, like, losing $10.
433
00:27:22.315 --> 00:27:22.815
So
434
00:27:23.275 --> 00:27:24.415
if you have,
435
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:28.260
say, a year or 2 from now,
436
00:27:28.800 --> 00:27:29.300
say,
437
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:38.294
like, a a semi custodial lightning wallet on your phone solves some of the privacy considerations or or improves the privacy considerations,
438
00:27:39.075 --> 00:27:41.174
it's gonna be hard to compete with that,
439
00:27:41.635 --> 00:27:45.260
for the average consumer or even the more advanced consumer.
440
00:27:46.520 --> 00:27:47.660
Even I use,
441
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:50.860
custodial lightning wallets on the phone.
442
00:27:52.015 --> 00:27:56.595
I just like, it's just it's just too much. Like, there's a lot of stuff happening in Bitcoin.
443
00:27:58.175 --> 00:28:00.115
We focus more on large
444
00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:01.240
money
445
00:28:01.620 --> 00:28:02.840
being stored by,
446
00:28:03.620 --> 00:28:08.440
sort of self custody. Right? So people that wanna hold their own Bitcoin.
447
00:28:10.144 --> 00:28:12.725
How that fits into lightning, it's tricky
448
00:28:13.105 --> 00:28:16.965
because it's a whole other universe of of, like, things for you to develop,
449
00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:22.000
and we don't wanna spread ourselves too thin. We really wanna focus on securing your stats,
450
00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:27.565
and then you move your stats from, cold card into your lightning wallet, whatever that is.
451
00:28:28.105 --> 00:28:29.645
And and if Coldcard
452
00:28:30.024 --> 00:28:31.005
can sign,
453
00:28:32.825 --> 00:28:38.100
Lightning for closing and opening channels, especially on the server side with the CK bunker,
454
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.020
then then that's great.
455
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:43.385
But, like, doing cold card for consumers
456
00:28:43.765 --> 00:28:46.745
to sign, l n, I I just I don't see the point.
457
00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:57.545
Can I jump in here very quickly, Harry? There we go. We got open Noms with us. We've overcome some technical difficulties. What's going on, Noms? Yep.
458
00:28:57.845 --> 00:29:10.360
Yes. Very good. Thanks. I've managed to be up on my Kinix OS phone, which is an achievement. It just froze out. I mean, it closed the app the last time I've switched the mic microphone on, but now it's working. So
459
00:29:10.760 --> 00:29:13.100
yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi, Ivan, NVK,
460
00:29:13.865 --> 00:29:15.005
Charles, everyone.
461
00:29:15.625 --> 00:29:16.445
Just a fair
462
00:29:18.185 --> 00:29:19.165
I found this,
463
00:29:20.650 --> 00:29:29.855
obviously, the call card PSBD function. I think and and I just would like to point out that there is there's been a big improvement in the new LND release, the 0 13,
464
00:29:32.395 --> 00:29:35.455
which makes you able to import external Xbox
465
00:29:36.110 --> 00:29:39.970
into the orchard part of the l and d
466
00:29:40.590 --> 00:29:41.090
wallet,
467
00:29:42.030 --> 00:29:43.890
which could be a cold card. Right?
468
00:29:44.415 --> 00:29:45.075
So yeah.
469
00:29:45.615 --> 00:29:52.035
It could be a lot it could be a lot of things. It could be your samurai mixes maybe. It could be a joy market. Right?
470
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.100
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I yes. I had a I had a couple of,
471
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:04.205
ideas about this already. And the the big thing is that it's it's used as a PSBD format, so it's not something new. Obviously, for, like, samurai,
472
00:30:05.065 --> 00:30:06.205
you would need to,
473
00:30:07.865 --> 00:30:28.135
convert it to a raw transaction, but that's not difficult. It can be done with, like, or Electrum or or or or, you know, somewhere I might just at some point might be able to sign PSBPs as well. But in any case, you know, that that account which you import can be multi sig or can be, like, total cold storage. And you can construct PSBT
474
00:30:28.515 --> 00:30:29.335
with LND,
475
00:30:30.470 --> 00:30:32.250
which I'm sure we will see
476
00:30:32.550 --> 00:30:33.050
you,
477
00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:39.050
you graphical interfaces for, like, you know, or RTL or whatever boss
478
00:30:40.215 --> 00:30:44.635
in the command line. And you will be able to pass that on either,
479
00:30:45.095 --> 00:30:48.630
you know, the usual way through an SD card or or, like,
480
00:30:49.090 --> 00:31:03.355
through a QR code to your hardware wallet, including code card. Or with the CK bunker, you could you could actually make some kind of API or even a command line interface as as, Emily K pointed out on on the Twitter thread that,
481
00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:05.840
it's already possible to kind of,
482
00:31:06.620 --> 00:31:08.080
run a CK bunker and
483
00:31:08.540 --> 00:31:10.160
then give it paste
484
00:31:11.075 --> 00:31:15.555
the USBP on this on the command line and have it signed according to the able to
485
00:31:16.435 --> 00:31:18.170
So I'm I'm so I'm so
486
00:31:18.970 --> 00:31:21.790
I'm I'm so glad you brought this up because this is what
487
00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:26.270
I want to bring into Zeus as the biggest new feature on the redesign.
488
00:31:27.325 --> 00:31:30.865
I would like people to be able to craft channel opens
489
00:31:31.245 --> 00:31:34.705
and then be able to open them from the device, like a hard
490
00:31:35.350 --> 00:31:37.929
air wallet device with a camera and QR code
491
00:31:38.790 --> 00:31:39.770
scanner that
492
00:31:41.270 --> 00:31:49.914
like, like, say, the Kobo Vault or, what's the new one? Key stone? I know there's also the Spectre DIY, which I wanna put together.
493
00:31:50.775 --> 00:31:51.755
And, of course,
494
00:31:52.215 --> 00:31:53.434
I've been berating
495
00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:57.840
Rodolfo over here to release his own gold card QR product.
496
00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:12.435
So, Rodolfo, I know you're just flooding QR codes and scanners because you're dragging your feet on getting this police out the door. So can you can you quit doing that? Can you send me a prototype, and we'll work on the the validation, the confirmation, please?
497
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:13.080
Because
498
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:19.340
so the problem is the user not validating that data, right, on the PSVT stuff? Yeah.
499
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.045
So so there is there is a few things. Right? I
500
00:32:24.465 --> 00:32:26.725
mean, there is a lot less need
501
00:32:27.345 --> 00:32:31.525
than people think for a hardware wallet that can read QRs
502
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:32.740
because,
503
00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:39.299
and I'll tell you this from, like, what's not like, it's not this is not the shiny sort of, like,
504
00:32:40.005 --> 00:32:43.945
experimental stuff that people love to talk about on Twitter, but, like, just from, like,
505
00:32:44.245 --> 00:32:44.645
the
506
00:32:45.445 --> 00:32:47.865
we have a very decent sized user base.
507
00:32:48.405 --> 00:32:48.905
And
508
00:32:49.340 --> 00:32:50.080
most people,
509
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:54.640
1, are never gonna use a phone for large amounts of money
510
00:32:54.940 --> 00:33:08.840
even if they're using a harder wallet. Right? Because you cannot control your privacy on the phone properly. I mean, sure, you can if you, you know, do Graphene and you put Thor and then you run your own node on the phone, all that stuff. Not trivial. It's definitely not trivial.
511
00:33:09.620 --> 00:33:12.200
Exactly. So so what people do is
512
00:33:12.735 --> 00:33:19.795
and this is the large majority of the people holding money that matters to them. Right? Like, so more than spending money.
513
00:33:20.309 --> 00:33:23.450
They have a a spare laptop or even their main machine
514
00:33:24.390 --> 00:33:28.650
where they have Bitcoin Core, and then they have Spectre. They have,
515
00:33:29.110 --> 00:33:29.850
a Sparrow.
516
00:33:30.375 --> 00:33:31.195
They have Electrum,
517
00:33:31.895 --> 00:33:32.955
something like that.
518
00:33:33.495 --> 00:33:36.075
And that's sort of like their money machine. Right?
519
00:33:36.375 --> 00:33:42.020
And then they use that machine to talk to the cold card either via USB or via SD card
520
00:33:42.560 --> 00:33:44.260
only when they're gonna sign.
521
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.915
Right? So oftentimes,
522
00:33:46.215 --> 00:33:48.155
the cold card is not even on the premise
523
00:33:48.535 --> 00:33:49.915
of where the computer is.
524
00:33:50.775 --> 00:33:53.115
So the the microSD shuffle
525
00:33:53.415 --> 00:33:54.635
is is a lot
526
00:33:55.010 --> 00:33:55.830
more important
527
00:33:57.330 --> 00:33:58.230
than it seems.
528
00:33:58.690 --> 00:33:59.990
Right? The USB
529
00:34:00.450 --> 00:34:08.595
shuffling of data means you can take the data from the money machine, your laptop that's, like, sort of like your your bank machine, right,
530
00:34:09.375 --> 00:34:12.815
all the way to your secret location where you have your hardware wallet,
531
00:34:14.640 --> 00:34:15.140
without
532
00:34:15.520 --> 00:34:16.020
carrying
533
00:34:16.640 --> 00:34:22.020
the actual hardware wallet with you. Right? So the hardware wallet never leaves your secure location,
534
00:34:23.325 --> 00:34:29.025
and never goes any place. The radios are accessible like nothing. Right? It just leaves in some dark place,
535
00:34:30.045 --> 00:34:31.185
and that's where it goes.
536
00:34:31.839 --> 00:34:37.220
And that's not even to count, you know, if people are splitting things, if they have passphrase or whatever. Right?
537
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:38.980
So
538
00:34:39.615 --> 00:34:41.234
the problem with incentivizing
539
00:34:42.335 --> 00:34:48.835
people to use QR codes and hardware wallets is that you're making easy for them to have the device
540
00:34:49.940 --> 00:34:50.840
in their hands
541
00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:52.680
where they shouldn't.
542
00:34:53.220 --> 00:35:03.045
Right? You shouldn't carry your card and wallet around with you. So so let's let's let's bring that back. So you're saying that when I'm scanning QR codes, I gotta be in within the line of sight,
543
00:35:03.345 --> 00:35:04.565
whereas with a
544
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:10.099
micro SD card, I could just put the PSVT on there and take it to another location.
545
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:12.099
That's right.
546
00:35:13.445 --> 00:35:21.225
And then and then there is also so it it's like a bunch of, like, little UX things that do cause people to lose or not lose money. Right?
547
00:35:21.600 --> 00:35:26.340
And then, of course, there's, like, a lot of people fall for evil QRS.
548
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:33.525
Not that the microSD fully solves that, but it sort of pushes away the QR from view at all. Right?
549
00:35:36.225 --> 00:35:39.285
Say we're not building a QR code capable device,
550
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:46.380
that's just not our priority, but it's sort of like a side project that we have for actually quite some time.
551
00:35:47.955 --> 00:35:49.655
It's just that if you're gonna build
552
00:35:50.515 --> 00:35:53.095
a harder device that has QR capability,
553
00:35:54.355 --> 00:35:55.890
then not focusing
554
00:35:56.190 --> 00:36:01.170
on the Huddl, but focusing on other things that you wanna do with QR, if you wanna do a stagefulness,
555
00:36:02.190 --> 00:36:03.250
seems more useful.
556
00:36:09.445 --> 00:36:10.585
Interesting. So
557
00:36:11.790 --> 00:36:20.610
how do you think you're gonna proceed forward then with the cold card line? Is there not gonna be a model now with the camera and the color screen and whatnot?
558
00:36:21.664 --> 00:36:22.484
Yeah. So
559
00:36:22.865 --> 00:36:25.045
so what we're doing is mark
560
00:36:25.585 --> 00:36:29.045
4 is is, like, focus on increased security.
561
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:33.160
But it's, like, between quotes, infinite memory
562
00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:37.000
because it's just a it's a few orders of magnitude more memory.
563
00:36:37.455 --> 00:36:39.555
Wow. Multiple orders of magnitude?
564
00:36:40.975 --> 00:36:41.475
Yeah.
565
00:36:42.255 --> 00:36:47.155
Like, that's why we're we joke internally. It's, like, relatively speaking, it's infinite memory.
566
00:36:49.089 --> 00:36:49.589
And,
567
00:36:50.210 --> 00:36:55.030
many other sort of, like, capabilities in that spectrum. So, like, much bigger chip family,
568
00:36:56.725 --> 00:37:00.425
you know, we we have some interesting things going on with Secure Elements.
569
00:37:01.765 --> 00:37:04.745
Did wait. Wait. Wait. Did you say Secure Elements, plural?
570
00:37:06.220 --> 00:37:08.000
I think there was noise on the line.
571
00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:10.960
And,
572
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:18.395
yeah. Like, the focus is that. Right? So it's like, you know, we're gonna refine the the the the plastic a little more.
573
00:37:19.655 --> 00:37:21.835
It's the same. It's, like, clear.
574
00:37:22.420 --> 00:37:29.880
But, like, we we want to just sorta it's a it's mark 4, so it's incremental. Right? The QR camera stuff with bigger,
575
00:37:31.224 --> 00:37:34.365
screen and all that stuff, that's a separate product line.
576
00:37:34.825 --> 00:37:37.724
It's not gonna be the MK line.
577
00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:39.250
It's,
578
00:37:39.950 --> 00:37:43.570
it's gonna be for people who don't need as hardcore security.
579
00:37:43.950 --> 00:37:48.275
They're willing to add other dependencies into the stack including that camera,
580
00:37:49.375 --> 00:37:51.155
for Yeah. It's like more complexity.
581
00:37:52.015 --> 00:37:56.820
It it it's, you know, it's gonna be able to do more things, but it's gonna have different set of trade offs.
582
00:37:57.380 --> 00:38:00.840
Right? It's it's like a different beast. For sure. Cool.
583
00:38:01.700 --> 00:38:02.600
Alright. Well,
584
00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:07.505
you know, I I should might as well just give you my money now because I want both those products.
585
00:38:09.805 --> 00:38:13.220
Wait. Let me send you a an LA, an invoice. Yeah. Here we go.
586
00:38:13.940 --> 00:38:20.200
For for those who don't haven't been following me and Rodolfo going back and forth on Twitter, I say, I will implement
587
00:38:20.744 --> 00:38:26.765
lightning network payments on the coin kite shop if he gives me an original block off.
588
00:38:27.680 --> 00:38:34.180
The offer is still on the table, but, you know, wanna sub that out for a nice selection of the new gold cards, it'd be worth something.
589
00:38:37.285 --> 00:38:41.385
I don't I don't have more OG block clocks. That's it. Are they all gone now?
590
00:38:42.485 --> 00:38:44.905
Yeah. Whatever we made is sold.
591
00:38:45.260 --> 00:38:49.339
I have my own stash, but that's it. Hell, yeah. Well, congrats, man.
592
00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:54.720
You've had a hell of a year. A lot of people picking up that block clock. Benny, I'm
593
00:38:55.405 --> 00:39:00.625
happy to see it a whole bunch of places. Any time I hang out at a Vic Hunter's house, it seems like they have it.
594
00:39:00.925 --> 00:39:03.905
So, yeah, props to you for making another great product there.
595
00:39:06.470 --> 00:39:07.430
I mean, you know, it's,
596
00:39:08.390 --> 00:39:10.810
it's a fun space to build stuff too.
597
00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:12.705
Yeah. That's for sure.
598
00:39:14.625 --> 00:39:15.125
Alright.
599
00:39:15.505 --> 00:39:20.885
Who else we got up here? We had just for up here, but I guess he dipped. I hope he's still
600
00:39:22.430 --> 00:39:23.250
recording everything.
601
00:39:27.470 --> 00:39:35.224
Yeah. This is pretty much a free for all, folks. Anyone wants to get in on the mix. Let's see. There's Actually just a quick Can I Oh, go ahead, Nipriddelpa?
602
00:39:35.525 --> 00:39:44.500
No. I'm sorry if I cut you off. No. I'm just I I thought no. No. No. No worries. My my connection is shit here. So, like, I keep on not knowing when things start or things end.
603
00:39:45.895 --> 00:40:01.625
I'm actually curious for OpenNoms. Like, I was it you who created the the open and close the channels on the Lakrum with hardware wallet? Or, like, I I think you did something if I remember right. And then also Yeah. I put together a guide on satbass.org,
604
00:40:02.325 --> 00:40:04.825
which is like my little blog web. It
605
00:40:05.205 --> 00:40:07.705
so I wrote out a guide to use PSVTs,
606
00:40:08.805 --> 00:40:09.705
with Electrum
607
00:40:10.710 --> 00:40:12.250
to batch open channels.
608
00:40:12.630 --> 00:40:14.809
And it also uses the balance of Satoshi's,
609
00:40:15.589 --> 00:40:17.405
tool or the boss tool.
610
00:40:19.325 --> 00:40:25.425
So so, yeah, I've I've got a guide on that. The the issue from, like, a u e UI perspective
611
00:40:25.725 --> 00:40:28.210
is that you only have 15 minutes,
612
00:40:29.710 --> 00:40:32.690
to actually construct the PSVT and sign it.
613
00:40:33.710 --> 00:40:36.289
15 minutes. Right. The current version. So
614
00:40:37.695 --> 00:40:51.020
so that Could you can can you can you push that through the c k bunker API? Familiar with that, the hardware, and, go into that process. But Like, so, like, say you have a cold card, like, hot connected, right, to the computer,
615
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.340
just sort of send it over for you to sign?
616
00:40:55.365 --> 00:40:56.345
But, potentially,
617
00:40:56.645 --> 00:41:02.825
you know, I'm not familiar with that the hardware and, going through that process, but maybe OpenOMS might be able to speak to that.
618
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:13.410
Yeah. I didn't try that kind of workflow. You have actually, you only have 10 minutes, not 15. So it's it's a bit,
619
00:41:13.765 --> 00:41:17.225
normal. That's why c k bunker would come even more useful.
620
00:41:18.325 --> 00:41:23.910
Yeah. That's that's one of my projects I'm I'm really looking into to kind of implement c k bunker properly
621
00:41:25.010 --> 00:41:26.310
and start to play with it.
622
00:41:27.010 --> 00:41:31.990
Certainly possible. I mean, it's PSBD, so it should be able to sign. You can actually realize quite a bit of savings.
623
00:41:32.645 --> 00:41:34.665
The the opportunities that,
624
00:41:35.125 --> 00:41:37.385
signing and opening channels with a PSVT
625
00:41:38.165 --> 00:41:38.665
provides,
626
00:41:40.130 --> 00:41:41.109
it also enables
627
00:41:41.569 --> 00:41:43.430
you to batch open the channels
628
00:41:44.049 --> 00:41:46.549
so you can actually realize quite a bit of savings.
629
00:41:47.265 --> 00:41:53.045
And then so which means that you could increase your profits as a routing node if you just back Yeah.
630
00:41:53.744 --> 00:41:57.540
And you don't have to broadcast them. Right? So you can you can have in your hand
631
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:00.100
a a whole bunch of different,
632
00:42:03.935 --> 00:42:17.600
signed transactions, just un broadcast them, just hold them, and then pick the one that makes the most sense. Like, you could have different fees set up on them no. And not have the device connected anymore. So so the way way it works, you need to
633
00:42:18.060 --> 00:42:21.595
communicate with the lightning pier first to establish the channel.
634
00:42:22.055 --> 00:42:25.915
So then you will get the multisig address from that interaction,
635
00:42:26.375 --> 00:42:29.355
and you need to send the agreed amount
636
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.580
to that multisig address within 10 minutes
637
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:38.740
for the request to live still. So for the peers to accept the channel and the channel to be open.
638
00:42:41.575 --> 00:42:43.595
So that's that's the time limit.
639
00:42:44.135 --> 00:42:47.590
So this is not about, like, justice transactions or anything
640
00:42:59.484 --> 00:42:59.984
Cool.
641
00:43:01.325 --> 00:43:08.760
And and, also, I mean, PSVT support is is big I mean, in, I think, as well. They they are actually their kind of basic
642
00:43:10.474 --> 00:43:13.135
channel opening flow is based on PSBTs.
643
00:43:13.435 --> 00:43:21.840
Like, they didn't even implement anything else, which is which is great in terms of, compatibility and, you know, just constructing all kinds of transactions.
644
00:43:23.500 --> 00:43:25.920
So Do they look like losing you just a little bit.
645
00:43:26.700 --> 00:43:34.035
Do they look like standard Bitcoin transactions, or or is there anything sort of, like, nonstandard about them? So it would be just,
646
00:43:34.335 --> 00:43:36.835
you know, the the the hardware wouldn't even care.
647
00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:40.340
No. It's just it's just to send to a to
648
00:43:41.200 --> 00:43:41.780
a funding
649
00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:50.815
2 of 2 multisync address. That's the transaction. There's nothing Well, there you go, Evan. So your your problem is solved already. You just gotta use it.
650
00:43:51.914 --> 00:43:53.694
There we go. Just gotta
651
00:43:54.234 --> 00:43:55.135
put it in.
652
00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:56.230
Yeah.
653
00:43:57.010 --> 00:44:01.349
Yeah. For sure. Just been messing around with all the PSPP stuff. Hopefully, I could
654
00:44:02.775 --> 00:44:04.455
put it out with a bunch of,
655
00:44:04.935 --> 00:44:09.035
business updates with the redesign and whatnot. It's gonna be a fun summer. Let me tell you, folks.
656
00:44:09.415 --> 00:44:12.475
Easy as hell. But it's a well worth it.
657
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:21.180
Yeah. Yeah. After after you mean, after the show, I'm trying to pick up my, my keystone device too. Lexus sent me one of the new Kobo
658
00:44:21.645 --> 00:44:24.385
successors too. So you're messing around with PSVTs,
659
00:44:25.245 --> 00:44:27.585
air gaps with QR code and camera
660
00:44:28.605 --> 00:44:31.890
on that front too. So lot of tools to mess around with.
661
00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:36.369
Yeah. The most most extreme kind of use of this kind of function
662
00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:39.329
is to coin join into a lightning channel,
663
00:44:39.935 --> 00:44:43.795
which is already possible with join market since you are able to
664
00:44:44.495 --> 00:44:47.700
pay to an external address with a coinjoin with join market,
665
00:44:48.660 --> 00:44:52.359
using your own amount, no pool sizes and such.
666
00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:53.140
But,
667
00:44:54.579 --> 00:44:58.815
only problem is that for now, as we don't have output yet,
668
00:44:59.355 --> 00:45:04.660
and obviously lightning is not lightning channels are not using that output either. It's
669
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.819
it's obvious
670
00:45:07.359 --> 00:45:08.819
which output is
671
00:45:09.520 --> 00:45:10.900
sticking out, and
672
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:12.045
that
673
00:45:12.444 --> 00:45:14.464
output would belong to
674
00:45:15.005 --> 00:45:19.744
the taker as well who initiated the word transaction. So, like, you do a 9 participants
675
00:45:20.230 --> 00:45:24.170
coin join and only one address is longer, which is a 2 of 2 multisig.
676
00:45:24.630 --> 00:45:25.369
So, obviously,
677
00:45:25.830 --> 00:45:28.410
you know, that is being used to
678
00:45:32.395 --> 00:45:38.735
that that was the one which belongs to the initiator of the channel. So if you of the coin joint. So if you have
679
00:45:39.700 --> 00:45:42.920
minus good chance because you only did 1 coin joint,
680
00:45:44.900 --> 00:45:50.935
and you would have a chance to kind of identify that this conjoined Sudoku who was the taker,
681
00:45:51.395 --> 00:45:53.095
then, you know, you could
682
00:45:53.395 --> 00:45:53.895
basically
683
00:45:54.275 --> 00:45:55.975
have have a link there,
684
00:45:56.355 --> 00:45:57.080
which is
685
00:45:57.400 --> 00:45:57.720
not,
686
00:45:58.200 --> 00:46:12.755
not a good idea good idea to have. We should because of the time limit that you have 10 minutes to do this, and you need to coordinate it to all the other participants, you know, you could be out of time. So so that is not not something which which would be recommended.
687
00:46:13.055 --> 00:46:13.555
But
688
00:46:14.080 --> 00:46:19.140
it's So in Rodolfo's situation, where he's, like, going to an undisclosed bunker somewhere,
689
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:29.285
he has to get there within 10 minutes and load up that transaction sign. Yeah. You can you can access it in a hidden service. Yeah. I I I would probably access it. That's right. That's what you
690
00:46:29.825 --> 00:46:37.200
would do. Yeah. There we go. So so on the device you're using for to be essentially your h s your lightning HSM,
691
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:39.040
that wouldn't be,
692
00:46:39.595 --> 00:46:45.775
like, I mean, you can still put in a remote location over Tor. That's what the CK bunker was designed for. But,
693
00:46:46.955 --> 00:46:50.080
you know, like, if this is just your your channel
694
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:52.800
sort of, management tool, right,
695
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:58.960
you don't have to have all your life savings there that could be in your house,
696
00:47:00.205 --> 00:47:02.065
and, and you're gonna be just fine.
697
00:47:02.925 --> 00:47:09.099
Your TV is gonna probably be worth more. So I I don't think that's, like, the security profile there that's a concern.
698
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:14.619
Yeah. I mean, the other thing is with having, like,
699
00:47:15.240 --> 00:47:20.285
using an external wallet with lightning that can also specify the channels to be closed
700
00:47:20.745 --> 00:47:22.605
or to an external address
701
00:47:23.865 --> 00:47:25.085
at 2 times
702
00:47:25.710 --> 00:47:30.849
either when you are opening the channel, so it can be only closed to that address
703
00:47:31.390 --> 00:47:37.595
in a cooperative case. Or when you are closing the channel, you can also if it haven't hasn't been,
704
00:47:38.615 --> 00:47:40.555
decided yet, then your side
705
00:47:41.470 --> 00:47:42.369
of the amount,
706
00:47:42.670 --> 00:47:56.444
you can for your your side of the amount, you can specify an address, which can be an external address, and it can be a cold card. And, obviously, if it's been already, like, kind of imported the export was imported to LND, then, you know, it can be streamlined much much better. So,
707
00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:00.160
once you close the channel, then you have a thin cost of issue. I know we're gonna
708
00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:03.700
get a lot of stuff. Straight away. Now that's pretty that's pretty nice touch.
709
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.940
But when am I gonna be able
710
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:16.850
to have my channel closed, go right into a coin joint transaction? That's when things get really fun. I know we're gonna get a lot of in ads Taproot.
711
00:48:17.470 --> 00:48:21.090
We're gonna obfuscate our channel opens and close in that regard, but
712
00:48:21.390 --> 00:48:23.865
when can I take it the extra mile and
713
00:48:24.165 --> 00:48:26.905
tow it to a proper point joint right out of my lightning channel?
714
00:48:27.925 --> 00:48:31.785
Well, why why don't you just feed it into your joint market,
715
00:48:33.130 --> 00:48:33.630
maker,
716
00:48:34.490 --> 00:48:35.710
wallet? Yeah. Exactly.
717
00:48:36.250 --> 00:48:38.590
Yep. That's what you have to do right now.
718
00:48:38.890 --> 00:48:45.525
But if you had some way of divvying it up and splitting into, like, the exact size pool and it kicks off transaction,
719
00:48:46.545 --> 00:48:48.404
that would be something else to to hold.
720
00:48:49.080 --> 00:48:51.740
But hell, we're heading the right direction. And,
721
00:48:52.600 --> 00:49:03.455
now we've already got a great array of tools to help enhance our privacy, and we know it's gonna be getting better in November. Fingers crossed, you know. Hopefully, the miners don't screw us. Right? Rodolfo was alluded to earlier.
722
00:49:04.795 --> 00:49:07.590
Yeah. I know. It's just like nothing nothing is given. Right?
723
00:49:08.310 --> 00:49:10.010
Nothing is given. Yeah.
724
00:49:10.390 --> 00:49:12.570
Don't trust verify, as they say.
725
00:49:13.350 --> 00:49:17.575
So let's see. Let's see. A lot of lot of awesome, stuff going on that front.
726
00:49:18.135 --> 00:49:21.755
And, yeah, I think in the next year, we're gonna see a lot of better user interfaces
727
00:49:22.454 --> 00:49:25.494
to help make those interactions better. Evan. Now you're you're not
728
00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:28.000
why don't you send
729
00:49:28.780 --> 00:49:29.280
LN
730
00:49:29.740 --> 00:49:30.240
to
731
00:49:30.620 --> 00:49:31.680
liquid BTC
732
00:49:32.540 --> 00:49:34.080
to some rounds there
733
00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:35.805
then back out?
734
00:49:36.444 --> 00:49:38.865
With the confidential transactions? Yeah. Well,
735
00:49:39.885 --> 00:49:42.944
I think mix there, and and it's cheaper fees too.
736
00:49:43.530 --> 00:49:48.430
I think Greg Rubels was talking about this on Twitter a little bit. Greg is from Blockstream.
737
00:49:48.810 --> 00:49:50.190
He's a really funny follow.
738
00:49:50.490 --> 00:49:50.990
Grubels.
739
00:49:51.925 --> 00:49:59.545
And he was talking about how l two can let you swap in now different commitments from, like, different side chains and whatnot for your channels.
740
00:50:00.010 --> 00:50:04.270
So, like, have taking funds from l n and using that to do, like,
741
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.590
a liquid transfer,
742
00:50:07.095 --> 00:50:09.835
which was crazy. It's, like, a way over my head, but
743
00:50:10.295 --> 00:50:12.234
I think things are gonna become,
744
00:50:12.694 --> 00:50:28.195
quite interesting, the interactions between lightning and liquid. I mean, right now, today, you could go on Liquid, right, and spin up a l n node on that. You have those assurances because, you know, those channels opens and closes or with confidential transactions. Right? You know
745
00:50:28.994 --> 00:50:29.494
Yeah.
746
00:50:30.115 --> 00:50:31.415
Yeah. I mean, like, the,
747
00:50:31.795 --> 00:50:35.335
you know, the trade off there is the federation, but, like,
748
00:50:36.109 --> 00:50:36.849
you know,
749
00:50:37.950 --> 00:50:41.810
I feel I feel like people sort of hate a little bit too much on that. Like,
750
00:50:42.510 --> 00:50:47.825
you know, I don't know of a lot of stories of people being censored on Tethr. Right?
751
00:50:48.445 --> 00:50:50.785
Tethr is fully sensible.
752
00:50:51.724 --> 00:50:53.025
Yeah. Yeah. And,
753
00:50:53.470 --> 00:50:56.210
like, I mean, Tether is essentially, like, completely
754
00:50:56.510 --> 00:51:00.210
disrupting the offshore bank account. Right? So if you wanna hold dollars
755
00:51:01.285 --> 00:51:06.505
and you don't want anybody to know, just use Tether. And they're not really gonna censor individuals.
756
00:51:08.339 --> 00:51:08.579
So,
757
00:51:09.859 --> 00:51:14.280
so when you think about how how much better the federation system is on liquid,
758
00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:17.319
in terms of, like, censorship resistance,
759
00:51:17.745 --> 00:51:18.245
You
760
00:51:19.665 --> 00:51:23.125
know, like, I I think it's totally worth playing around with that.
761
00:51:26.305 --> 00:51:27.685
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean,
762
00:51:28.130 --> 00:51:34.310
Quickwood is, like, head and shoulders above existing custodial solutions. Right? Where only just one party has to be like,
763
00:51:35.125 --> 00:51:35.625
okay.
764
00:51:36.405 --> 00:51:38.665
This is a no go. I'm taking the funds.
765
00:51:39.125 --> 00:51:44.105
So it's what is it? Like, something about 3 of 15 at least at the collude? Or maybe it's higher?
766
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.700
Well, so so yeah. So it's tricky. Right? If I remember, if they have a problem,
767
00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:51.200
it drops from,
768
00:51:52.065 --> 00:51:54.405
whatever the the big quorum is
769
00:51:54.785 --> 00:51:58.245
to a much smaller one, a 3 out of 5 or something like that.
770
00:51:59.560 --> 00:52:02.220
But but even so, I mean, like, it's fairly distributed.
771
00:52:02.680 --> 00:52:06.935
The actors on it are reasonable for now. And,
772
00:52:08.115 --> 00:52:09.095
you know, eventually,
773
00:52:09.555 --> 00:52:10.535
there there should be
774
00:52:11.555 --> 00:52:14.375
a competing federation, right, for Liquid 2,
775
00:52:15.270 --> 00:52:18.330
which I think would actually make liquid even more interesting,
776
00:52:18.869 --> 00:52:21.930
even the block stream liquid. Let's put it this way.
777
00:52:23.025 --> 00:52:24.325
I think they should incentivize
778
00:52:24.625 --> 00:52:25.765
a competing chain.
779
00:52:29.425 --> 00:52:31.445
Gives cover, but, yeah.
780
00:52:33.060 --> 00:52:33.560
Absolutely.
781
00:52:34.900 --> 00:52:36.200
While we're talking about liquid,
782
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:46.325
gotta say, anyone who hasn't should go back and find the Citadel dispatch with Wiz and Adam Back. They go really into the weeds on the liquid and,
783
00:52:47.740 --> 00:52:51.119
you know, how the federation works, what the restrictions are,
784
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:57.734
potential scaling issues. Like, that was like a really long rip. I don't think I've heard Adam Beck
785
00:52:58.035 --> 00:52:59.575
do that long a talk.
786
00:53:00.195 --> 00:53:12.460
And, yeah, it was probably one of my favorite podcasts that, has put together on dispatch so far. So check that out, Freak. I don't know the number offhand, but sure you could find it on citadel dispatch.com with a quick search.
787
00:53:15.265 --> 00:53:16.165
Yeah. The big thing
788
00:53:17.265 --> 00:53:17.765
with
789
00:53:18.865 --> 00:53:19.905
the spike
790
00:53:20.465 --> 00:53:24.570
Oh, I'm sorry. I hit the mute everyone button. This UI is awful. Sorry, Noms.
791
00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:26.910
Okay. Sorry. It's fine.
792
00:53:27.530 --> 00:53:32.190
So just I know it's on the confidential transactions that, you know, when there was the
793
00:53:33.530 --> 00:53:37.395
spike, I was, like, you know, had a little chat with, like, IRC about,
794
00:53:37.955 --> 00:53:48.160
like, you know, what it would take for joint market to run on liquid. Right? Because it's it's the elements. The it's quite similar to Bitcoin. The there are just a couple of things which you need to change to be able to,
795
00:53:48.700 --> 00:53:51.119
construct transactions on liquid rather than Bitcoin.
796
00:53:51.444 --> 00:53:51.844
But,
797
00:53:52.244 --> 00:53:52.905
that is
798
00:53:53.365 --> 00:53:58.184
actually because of the confidential transact transactions, you don't need equal amounts
799
00:53:58.484 --> 00:53:58.984
outputs.
800
00:54:00.609 --> 00:54:01.750
You need only
801
00:54:02.130 --> 00:54:05.109
basically batch transactions with multiple participants.
802
00:54:05.490 --> 00:54:12.164
So you can go into Telegram group. I mean, okay, now maybe not Telegram, Playtex or, you know, like XMPP or something,
803
00:54:12.625 --> 00:54:14.164
which is more private and
804
00:54:16.040 --> 00:54:18.619
press around your kind of PSVTs
805
00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:21.740
with PS you don't need to know.
806
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:30.965
And you're just, you know, signing your inputs to go to the to your outputs and merge them together, and basically, it will appear as a coin joint,
807
00:54:31.825 --> 00:54:34.805
because the amounts will not be seen.
808
00:54:35.549 --> 00:54:39.730
And then It's quite interesting. But, obviously, you have the problem pegging out.
809
00:54:40.430 --> 00:54:49.450
But Using I'm for for node coordination was a thing back in the day for people that don't know. There was an IRC channel for you to find Bitcoin nodes,
810
00:54:50.329 --> 00:54:51.310
and then the Electron's,
811
00:54:51.849 --> 00:54:53.710
nodes too for some time. Not shaken.
812
00:54:54.810 --> 00:54:58.329
Oh, I guess I guess that makes sense. Yeah. That's pretty amazing. I did not know that
813
00:54:59.065 --> 00:55:00.685
this must have been, pre,
814
00:55:01.305 --> 00:55:05.085
you know, the initial seeds and whatnot run by everyone.
815
00:55:05.625 --> 00:55:08.685
So you would just hop on there and say, I need some piers. I I'm not shinking.
816
00:55:09.690 --> 00:55:13.230
Well, I guess I guess that makes sense. Like, if you try to take, like, a shitcoin node,
817
00:55:13.609 --> 00:55:19.065
you know, I'm not proud to admit it, but I was helping a friend sync their Dogecoin node to dump their coins. Right?
818
00:55:19.525 --> 00:55:23.865
And, you know, if you don't have ample peers, you cannot sync that thing. It's ridiculous.
819
00:55:24.340 --> 00:55:28.760
So they go through all these hoops of, like, downloading torrents with the vast majority of the blocks.
820
00:55:29.380 --> 00:55:33.704
So, yeah, I I guess it makes a lot of sense for people to be advertising
821
00:55:34.005 --> 00:55:38.425
that they are out on the network on something like IRC. That's pretty funny.
822
00:55:43.829 --> 00:55:46.809
Yeah. This is what what about, like, manually coordinating
823
00:55:47.430 --> 00:55:47.930
batch
824
00:55:48.295 --> 00:55:49.755
transactions. It's not really.
825
00:55:51.175 --> 00:55:52.635
Like, obviously, you shouldn't
826
00:55:53.015 --> 00:55:58.849
connect to, you know, other people know other people's notes if especially if you don't know them.
827
00:55:59.869 --> 00:56:11.484
And, also, if you're sharing your transaction, then, you know, you're sharing all all the data, which is within it. So it's it's not a recommended thing. It's just could be kind of a proof concept to start off,
828
00:56:12.750 --> 00:56:13.570
kind of quasi
829
00:56:13.950 --> 00:56:18.130
coin joints or liquid, and then, obviously, you will automate it. It's something on your communication
830
00:56:18.430 --> 00:56:28.755
system. Didn't joint market also had at some point, IRC too. I remember. The joint market does communicate in IRC, but it's those are Yeah. Anonymized dots.
831
00:56:29.130 --> 00:56:32.510
So That's right. You know, they they don't give out all the information
832
00:56:32.810 --> 00:56:36.110
on the if they engage in the coin joint, then, obviously, they
833
00:56:36.535 --> 00:56:39.355
tell about their inputs and outputs to the taker,
834
00:56:40.775 --> 00:56:43.035
who is the coordinator and who also
835
00:56:43.390 --> 00:56:44.930
pays the fees.
836
00:56:45.710 --> 00:56:52.770
So that's why it's, the most private way to use to a market is to be a taker to initiate the coin joints and coordinate at the same
837
00:56:57.915 --> 00:57:08.119
But the order communication is still in IRC, so there is, like, a public order book, which is which is an I r which is, like, 2 or 3 IRC servers, which are obviously public. So,
838
00:57:08.420 --> 00:57:09.319
you know, reports
839
00:57:09.865 --> 00:57:10.365
advertise
840
00:57:10.745 --> 00:57:16.285
the amount of it, which are all randomized so that it can't be coordinated to the actual, you know,
841
00:57:17.065 --> 00:57:19.490
value or held in the wallet. And
842
00:57:20.830 --> 00:57:21.330
also,
843
00:57:22.910 --> 00:57:27.485
amount and the fees they are they are offering for. And then when that is
844
00:57:28.285 --> 00:57:28.785
matches
845
00:57:29.245 --> 00:57:30.785
with the taker, then
846
00:57:31.085 --> 00:57:33.025
they would the communication would be encrypted
847
00:57:33.645 --> 00:57:34.145
DMs
848
00:57:34.525 --> 00:57:35.790
still on IRC. Wait.
849
00:57:36.750 --> 00:57:42.865
Some flood protection there. So, you know, you cannot go really higher than that. Yeah. I I I have no idea.
850
00:57:44.945 --> 00:57:45.685
It's already
851
00:57:45.985 --> 00:57:52.805
15 participants, and Gorgen is already kind of, pushing it. So usually Wait. Wait. So is this the default mechanism for JS?
852
00:57:53.170 --> 00:57:54.930
Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. It's it's
853
00:57:55.650 --> 00:58:11.840
Wow. Yeah. I I had I had no idea. Yes. Did they ever implemented the fidelity bonds or no. That never happened. Right? That is not like, never happened. It's in progress. Right? In the next zero Right. Okay. So Joe market just had a new release now, which is like a kind of a minor release. Right?
854
00:58:12.460 --> 00:58:12.960
083.
855
00:58:14.140 --> 00:58:15.760
It's loads of kind of efficiency,
856
00:58:17.020 --> 00:58:17.920
gains and
857
00:58:18.255 --> 00:58:22.275
some privacy improvements and some algorithmic stuff, bug fixes, etcetera.
858
00:58:23.055 --> 00:58:25.795
But in the next major 30, 0
859
00:58:26.150 --> 00:58:29.370
dot 9, it is planned to have the fidelity bonds,
860
00:58:30.230 --> 00:58:33.930
merged in and working. I mean, it's it's already the PR is is
861
00:58:34.714 --> 00:58:36.415
being reviewed tested since
862
00:58:37.915 --> 00:58:38.555
many months.
863
00:58:40.155 --> 00:58:42.255
And, I mean, there is progress in there.
864
00:58:46.350 --> 00:58:54.595
Awesome. And then also, I mean It's great it's great seeing how how these, like, projects, they've been around so long, and they're still iterating. You know, there's always something to improve on
865
00:58:54.975 --> 00:59:04.410
JM or, you know, all these projects. Yeah. I mean, the communication layer, you know, obviously. I mean, IRC is something which is reliable, and it has been working for, you know, 5 plus years now.
866
00:59:05.430 --> 00:59:05.930
But
867
00:59:06.390 --> 00:59:11.224
comes comes with trade offs. I mean, you need to sometimes jump IRC servers. Like, it's
868
00:59:11.785 --> 00:59:14.924
you know, like, GM wasn't using free node free node,
869
00:59:15.785 --> 00:59:16.285
except
870
00:59:16.640 --> 00:59:19.140
for their kind of, you know, developer chats,
871
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:20.500
normal,
872
00:59:21.120 --> 00:59:22.180
communication channel.
873
00:59:23.520 --> 00:59:28.905
But, you know, some some servers will basically go down and then you need to change or that you need to change the address,
874
00:59:29.684 --> 00:59:31.704
the hidden service address and that, etcetera,
875
00:59:32.710 --> 00:59:34.089
and we said there is the flood
876
00:59:34.470 --> 00:59:34.970
protection,
877
00:59:35.829 --> 00:59:37.450
which is like a rate limitation.
878
00:59:38.309 --> 00:59:38.809
But,
879
00:59:40.069 --> 00:59:41.130
I mean, it's it's,
880
00:59:41.605 --> 00:59:42.185
you know,
881
00:59:43.045 --> 00:59:44.505
it it is one thing which
882
00:59:44.965 --> 00:59:48.430
someone could take and improve upon. There's been, like,
883
00:59:49.150 --> 00:59:59.155
proposed and, you know, partially done. So I got some in. Is any You know, open arms, like, off off the shelf, it just works. I mean, gotta be just a little bit more technical to use JM.
884
00:59:59.615 --> 01:00:03.955
But for for people that haven't tried it, I highly recommend it. Like, because,
885
01:00:04.975 --> 01:00:13.190
you actually make money as a maker, So you you just you put some funds in a in a machine. You're gonna run this thing, and you just let it run.
886
01:00:13.809 --> 01:00:18.235
You set your your fees, and that's it. It's, like, it's actually pretty cool.
887
01:00:18.775 --> 01:00:20.375
Yeah. I would say it's it's quite,
888
01:00:21.494 --> 01:00:25.400
so the income is very much comparable to kind of an
889
01:00:26.359 --> 01:00:32.299
amateur, let's say. I mean, everyone is is an amateur pretty much, you know, except like Alex Bosters, but to,
890
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:33.740
to an amateur
891
01:00:34.045 --> 01:00:34.545
routing
892
01:00:34.964 --> 01:00:35.464
notes.
893
01:00:35.885 --> 01:00:36.545
The income
894
01:00:37.325 --> 01:00:39.905
on GM is comparable to that, except
895
01:00:40.365 --> 01:00:47.940
there is no way to lose money in the coin joint as a maker because, you know, obviously, you're only signing transactions which are
896
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:50.305
bringing some fee to you,
897
01:00:50.605 --> 01:00:52.385
maybe only a couple of Satoshis,
898
01:00:53.005 --> 01:01:02.630
but you always gain privacy. And and there is no babysitting either. Right? It's like set it and forget it. Set and forget. Exactly. I mean, that's that's what happens on the joining box as well. It's basically just,
899
01:01:03.589 --> 01:01:09.765
runs as a system deep process. And, you know, until it's it's it's get shut down, it just goes in the background
900
01:01:10.625 --> 01:01:11.605
and does its communication.
901
01:01:14.385 --> 01:01:16.405
Uber store only. That you can you don't end up with fixed amounts. But
902
01:01:26.165 --> 01:01:30.645
Yeah. It's great fun. You know? Try to join market, and then and then it's the the thing is that you can
903
01:01:32.085 --> 01:01:34.585
you don't end up with fixed amounts,
904
01:01:35.290 --> 01:01:43.230
but you have a wide range of you know, if you started a big UTX, so it's broken up to smaller ones. If you have a lot of smaller ones, then, you know,
905
01:01:43.555 --> 01:01:45.495
it can be merged together
906
01:01:46.515 --> 01:01:51.495
through coin joints by others as well as well as by yourself if you
907
01:01:51.875 --> 01:01:53.460
are opting to be a taker.
908
01:01:54.740 --> 01:01:58.440
So the thing is you will have, you know, wide range of amounts
909
01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:10.825
available to open a channel. So if you just want to construct a PSVT from that, you know, you can import your your x bot to the NND wallet now, or you can just do the external funding with the balance of satoshis
910
01:02:11.205 --> 01:02:12.585
or with with c lightning.
911
01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:14.710
And you can just choose
912
01:02:16.450 --> 01:02:21.030
the the UTXO you would want to spend and see account for some fees.
913
01:02:21.410 --> 01:02:21.910
And
914
01:02:23.395 --> 01:02:25.654
if you want to if you prefer privacy,
915
01:02:26.515 --> 01:02:28.535
pay higher fees on the transaction,
916
01:02:28.835 --> 01:02:30.535
and don't create any change.
917
01:02:31.390 --> 01:02:31.890
If
918
01:02:32.190 --> 01:02:37.329
you want to be sure that your transaction goes through, even if there is a fee spike, then you must
919
01:02:38.029 --> 01:02:41.214
think of creating a bit of a change to be able to
920
01:02:41.994 --> 01:02:46.415
CPF 3, charge space with parent, the general opening transaction. Because
921
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:48.580
if it doesn't get into
922
01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:56.820
the blockchain in 2 weeks after opening the channel, then it will become a stale channel, and, you know, you can it can be stuck
923
01:02:57.244 --> 01:03:02.865
if you if you lose your information because the pair won't take any load of it anymore.
924
01:03:03.244 --> 01:03:06.065
So your chance will be to force close it
925
01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:06.940
yourself.
926
01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:09.260
So, yeah, there are some
927
01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:11.740
things like that using external wallets.
928
01:03:12.040 --> 01:03:13.480
But, yeah, I think with,
929
01:03:13.880 --> 01:03:14.380
Anthony,
930
01:03:15.305 --> 01:03:19.485
we've been going through of of of this question about how to how to
931
01:03:20.985 --> 01:03:23.245
best to use the coin control in lightning,
932
01:03:24.025 --> 01:03:33.650
which was, I mean, just coming from the different size of UTXO in in which market. Well, that's how do you how do would you do the coin control the best? And as as we said then as well,
933
01:03:33.950 --> 01:03:37.944
that for privacy, it is best to just use value TXO without change,
934
01:03:38.405 --> 01:03:39.065
but then
935
01:03:39.605 --> 01:03:40.345
you are
936
01:03:40.885 --> 01:03:52.190
exposing yourself to the risk of, you know, getting stuck in Oh, no. So I have one question. What what's the volume looking like over at JM right now? I haven't been on a while. And Yeah. What's the Any questions on these kind of things that
937
01:03:52.995 --> 01:03:53.815
seem to just,
938
01:03:54.675 --> 01:03:55.815
keep going on these?
939
01:03:58.755 --> 01:04:08.329
Nahum. So I have one question. What what's the volume looking like over at JM right now? I haven't been on a while. And what's, like, the biggest and smallest order I could get filled over there?
940
01:04:09.885 --> 01:04:17.105
Well, I mean, smaller orders I mean, you can always there is the Nix Bitcoin team does it on a public
941
01:04:17.950 --> 01:04:22.450
OB Butcher, which is not a public order big voucher, which is
942
01:04:22.990 --> 01:04:26.545
for which you don't need to spin up your own instance. So if you go to nixbitcoin.org/obwatcher,
943
01:04:29.964 --> 01:04:30.464
then
944
01:04:30.845 --> 01:04:36.220
it's it's it's all there. I mean, it's just the the steady offers for years. But it varies tremendously.
945
01:04:36.680 --> 01:04:50.635
Right? Like Yes. It does. It's like you could have thousands of coins or you could have just 200 coins. Right? Like, it's, it's, sort of all over the place. The top is usually a few 100. I mean, very few would would go into so I would I would say, you know, I would be
946
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:51.619
comfortable
947
01:04:52.160 --> 01:04:54.420
even if, you know, I would have that kind of,
948
01:04:56.560 --> 01:05:01.925
amount attempt to go and join anything which has, like, you know, less than
949
01:05:02.385 --> 01:05:04.244
10 makers available, let's say.
950
01:05:04.625 --> 01:05:07.045
Because then you have you have hardly any any
951
01:05:07.720 --> 01:05:17.545
one to to choose from, and then it's easy easy very easy to kind of see build it. So Evan, you can put your 50,000 coins there as a maker. You you you you do well.
952
01:05:21.525 --> 01:05:25.305
Yeah. Just Yeah. I'm looking at I'm pulling up the the site right now. I'm on nix
953
01:05:25.640 --> 01:05:26.140
bitcoin.org/obwatcher.
954
01:05:28.040 --> 01:05:30.520
Yeah. Exactly. And, yeah, it looks like there's some pretty,
955
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:45.910
pretty big orders listed. So the counterparties all can list their minimum and and maximum sizes Yeah. And you can list as well as their different feed. If you if you click on the top, of the road, and you can list by the maximum size or the minimum size. And, I mean, overall,
956
01:05:46.290 --> 01:05:52.950
the the very small ones, you know, are going to when they go under, like, Aldo's case, Satoshis maybe.
957
01:05:53.265 --> 01:05:56.565
And there are plenty of offers, you know, at at, like, 30,301,000
958
01:05:57.904 --> 01:06:05.320
Satoshis. I mean, you know, that's a significant part of that will be a fee if you if you go more join. Wow. Okay. So I I got it now. So we got 527
959
01:06:05.780 --> 01:06:07.800
orders here. We got 325 counterparties.
960
01:06:08.660 --> 01:06:09.720
The max size
961
01:06:10.105 --> 01:06:11.724
anyone's willing to do looks to be
962
01:06:12.505 --> 01:06:14.204
320 and a half Bitcoin.
963
01:06:14.585 --> 01:06:24.710
Yep. That's unbelievable. So so consider that that. And the smallest And and it does go through, man. If you watch that, you will see. Yeah. If the indeed That's unbelievable.
964
01:06:25.010 --> 01:06:28.265
Yeah. Consider that. That's And the smallest looks to be, like, 2,730
965
01:06:29.685 --> 01:06:32.105
SATs, which is pretty incredible too.
966
01:06:33.205 --> 01:06:34.105
Yeah. That's amazing.
967
01:06:34.770 --> 01:06:38.790
Yeah. It's just so much settings. So, yeah, definitely a definitely a nice distribution,
968
01:06:40.050 --> 01:06:43.670
right there as well. Another interesting thing on this is that,
969
01:06:45.065 --> 01:06:51.565
if if the volumes start to grow, if they see action, they will make more coins available.
970
01:06:52.849 --> 01:06:53.810
They will make,
971
01:06:54.450 --> 01:06:56.470
more entries there. Oh, yeah.
972
01:06:56.770 --> 01:07:01.525
Absolutely. Dynamic. Yeah. Like, you you see there's people sort of watching this well.
973
01:07:02.224 --> 01:07:15.910
So so what you need to consider with this maximum size is that it is there are 5 mix depth in the join market wallet, and you can only go and join at at one time from one mix depth. So, you know, if you keep rolling these,
974
01:07:17.010 --> 01:07:17.990
coins across,
975
01:07:18.355 --> 01:07:27.255
you know, through coin joints across the mix, then they will basically have a close to kind of an equal distribution between the 5. So, you know, someone is
976
01:07:28.799 --> 01:07:31.140
keeping their, you know, 1,000 Bitcoins
977
01:07:31.520 --> 01:07:32.020
on
978
01:07:34.319 --> 01:07:41.425
on on join market for a couple of months, then they will probably end up having, like, you know, 320 or, like, you know, 200 at in a in a mix.
979
01:07:41.725 --> 01:07:43.745
But there will be almost 5 times
980
01:07:44.285 --> 01:07:45.825
as much in the wall
981
01:07:48.300 --> 01:07:51.440
wallet. Right? And then that was actually a change
982
01:07:51.820 --> 01:07:54.240
in the in the latest release that
983
01:07:55.545 --> 01:07:56.365
so far,
984
01:07:57.145 --> 01:07:57.965
as a maker,
985
01:07:58.825 --> 01:08:03.805
you've you would offer always from the smallest kind of, the the least,
986
01:08:04.690 --> 01:08:07.750
the smallest mix that you add coins in. But now
987
01:08:08.370 --> 01:08:08.870
the
988
01:08:10.050 --> 01:08:12.550
the maker kind of will try to fulfill
989
01:08:13.170 --> 01:08:13.670
the
990
01:08:14.194 --> 01:08:17.015
coin join in a way that it will accumulate
991
01:08:17.635 --> 01:08:22.970
the coins in one way that's so it can increase its potential, like, size rather than,
992
01:08:23.450 --> 01:08:29.790
creating this equal distribution, but still, you know, considerably distributed between between the 5 mix ups in anyway.
993
01:08:31.055 --> 01:08:40.469
So Now for someone who might might be new to join market, well, how would you describe a mixed depth? Is is that anything like your a non
994
01:08:40.849 --> 01:08:45.030
set, and how do the 2 relate? No. It it to a mixed depth is just
995
01:08:45.385 --> 01:08:46.125
5 accounts.
996
01:08:46.505 --> 01:08:49.965
Right? So it's, like, 5 dimension of of the same export,
997
01:08:51.705 --> 01:08:52.925
for the same seed.
998
01:08:53.490 --> 01:09:00.150
Yeah. So as you can Mhmm. You can create those in, like, Ledger Live on one click. Right?
999
01:09:00.485 --> 01:09:03.065
Or or you can have it on on any kind of firewall
1000
01:09:03.685 --> 01:09:07.225
or, or an extra or anything. So you can you could,
1001
01:09:07.925 --> 01:09:10.025
import these seeds to
1002
01:09:10.630 --> 01:09:12.890
to other wallets as well because it's all been certified
1003
01:09:13.350 --> 01:09:15.450
compatible. So it's it's just 5 accounts
1004
01:09:15.910 --> 01:09:16.890
where you would
1005
01:09:17.270 --> 01:09:22.934
generally fund 1 or you have if if you have different sources of front funds, you could you could deposit
1006
01:09:23.315 --> 01:09:27.494
to, you know, one from to one from this exchange, one
1007
01:09:28.050 --> 01:09:29.430
to another one to,
1008
01:09:29.810 --> 01:09:34.870
from another exchange. Maybe if you don't have a if you have a non KVACI source, you will you will deposit it,
1009
01:09:35.330 --> 01:09:46.740
to the 3rd mix depth. So these coins won't mix without a coin together without a coin join. Right? Because that the way the way GeoMarks works, when you make a coin joint already participating
1010
01:09:47.120 --> 01:09:49.140
in a coin joint as a maker as well,
1011
01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:52.340
only the coin joint outputs progresses
1012
01:09:52.880 --> 01:10:09.390
to the next mix ups, like from, you know, 1 to 2 or 2 to 5, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and then 4 4 back to 0 and then 0 to 1. So that's how you have the 5. It's it's it's circular with these scripts which you can edit. So, you know, you can have, like, an acyclical
1013
01:10:10.090 --> 01:10:10.590
distribution
1014
01:10:11.050 --> 01:10:11.550
acyclical
1015
01:10:12.005 --> 01:10:16.344
kind of movement of coins as well. But by default, it is it is going
1016
01:10:17.445 --> 01:10:19.545
through the 5 and back to the first
1017
01:10:20.820 --> 01:10:26.360
through coin joints. So if you deposit to different mix depths, then, you know, these coins won't be seen
1018
01:10:26.739 --> 01:10:28.840
won't be merged together. And, also,
1019
01:10:29.364 --> 01:10:31.625
the the non mixed output
1020
01:10:32.965 --> 01:10:38.580
is not being mixed with the coin joint outputs. Right? So it doesn't happen like, you know, there is
1021
01:10:39.540 --> 01:10:41.080
always, like, a 3rd implementation,
1022
01:10:41.620 --> 01:10:48.775
which we like to see say that it is not very well implemented, that it won't click. You can just send all and, you know,
1023
01:10:51.635 --> 01:10:52.615
batched together,
1024
01:10:53.315 --> 01:11:01.159
merge together the non mixed change with the mixed outputs and then, you know, it it just takes away all the and that's that you were you were accumulating.
1025
01:11:01.699 --> 01:11:03.560
With your market, it is,
1026
01:11:04.500 --> 01:11:05.000
segregated,
1027
01:11:05.460 --> 01:11:11.265
like, has the same same idea as it is happening with, like, some of that you have premixed
1028
01:11:14.220 --> 01:11:15.920
premixed wallet or your deposit
1029
01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:16.800
deposit
1030
01:11:17.180 --> 01:11:17.680
wallet.
1031
01:11:18.460 --> 01:11:31.405
Like, in in some wallets, it's good wallets rather than account, but it's the same thing. It's just another derivation path. So you deposit to 1, and then you mix, and it goes to post mix wallet or another account. And then
1032
01:11:31.820 --> 01:11:33.760
the there, the non mixed
1033
01:11:34.220 --> 01:11:35.200
unmissed change
1034
01:11:35.660 --> 01:11:40.640
is actually going to a third account, which is called, like, bad bank or, like, toxic change. Right?
1035
01:11:42.085 --> 01:11:46.184
So that way, it is separated, and they are not you cannot send from
1036
01:11:46.644 --> 01:11:47.385
all the
1037
01:11:48.690 --> 01:11:49.190
wallets
1038
01:11:49.809 --> 01:11:53.829
in similar wallets or all the mix that's in true market. You cannot,
1039
01:11:54.690 --> 01:11:55.590
buy the forward.
1040
01:11:55.915 --> 01:11:56.655
You cannot
1041
01:11:57.034 --> 01:11:59.054
construct a transaction which is sending
1042
01:11:59.594 --> 01:12:02.980
from more than one mix. So this is automatically done
1043
01:12:03.380 --> 01:12:07.239
during when you are a maker that you can only send from one end time.
1044
01:12:09.860 --> 01:12:11.400
Doesn't answer your question.
1045
01:12:12.885 --> 01:12:19.945
K. Cool. Yes. Sounds like a, you know, very, in-depth way to manage your inputs and make sure they don't get mixed up and potentially
1046
01:12:20.599 --> 01:12:21.739
compromise your,
1047
01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:23.340
privacy.
1048
01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:27.820
Yeah. So that's the point that's the point of help. For that explainer. It's a very underappreciated
1049
01:12:28.360 --> 01:12:28.860
project
1050
01:12:29.285 --> 01:12:31.465
because it doesn't have a marketing team.
1051
01:12:32.565 --> 01:12:35.945
Yeah. Yeah. There's there's no one that's gonna come and yell at you and
1052
01:12:36.250 --> 01:12:39.469
be very aggressive about why you're not using joint market.
1053
01:12:41.690 --> 01:12:43.790
That's that's right. Yeah. Absolutely.
1054
01:12:44.410 --> 01:12:50.565
It's it is a great mixer. I I really am a big fan of it. You know, it's definitely got its own nuances to it.
1055
01:12:51.605 --> 01:12:52.425
There's definitely
1056
01:12:53.045 --> 01:12:57.640
a bit of a more of a lift to use it, but I'm glad it's now implemented
1057
01:12:58.020 --> 01:12:58.920
in RaspiBlitz.
1058
01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:01.800
And you have the the join market project,
1059
01:13:02.260 --> 01:13:09.065
the join box project that's integrated there. So that's awesome. I would really like to see it implemented on more node platforms.
1060
01:13:10.165 --> 01:13:14.250
But, yeah, it's it's it's really cool. It it's completely different than having, like, a coordinated,
1061
01:13:14.950 --> 01:13:15.450
centralized,
1062
01:13:16.390 --> 01:13:18.570
coordinator that's putting the mixes together.
1063
01:13:19.315 --> 01:13:38.235
And it's all done with a market model, which is, you know, super unique. No one else, to my knowledge, is doing something like that. So, I'm really glad it's around. I'm really glad people like you are putting time to maintain it and make it better and and make better UX's for it. So so thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's I like it because I use it myself.
1064
01:13:38.614 --> 01:13:59.085
And, you know, just Yeah. Exactly. I mean just wanted to streamline it. That's, that's what the joining box is about. And, also, it can be I mean, that's how the best projects are are made, man. Just scratching your own itch to get something done. And if if anyone else likes it too and happens to use it, that's just a bonus. And Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, having, like, you know, contributors to this I mean,
1065
01:14:00.185 --> 01:14:05.140
that's that's just really great to kind of, you know, come people and have people coming in and then, like,
1066
01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:06.820
you know, just
1067
01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:12.275
fix it this or that. So just even opening issues or or giving some feedback is is is very useful.
1068
01:14:12.895 --> 01:14:15.715
And, yeah, the other thing Yeah. Absolutely. I
1069
01:14:16.574 --> 01:14:28.515
I I just wanna to underscore that you don't have to be a programmer to help out with any of these open source projects. There's so much work that can be done from just being a user, reporting issues, giving feedback,
1070
01:14:30.095 --> 01:14:32.755
you know, testing and in testing beta releases
1071
01:14:33.215 --> 01:15:11.260
or, you you know, even doing something like helping with the translations on, like, a Transifex or something. There's so many different ways you can help contribute to these projects. So Yeah. Documentation is is is the biggest thing because all the developers, you know, they can be very good, but, you know, it's very difficult to kind of make make the document code for something that you you you've wrote the code for. Right? Because, obviously, it works. It's in the it's in the code. Why would I need to you know? It's like Yeah. You understand it. It it's like you almost have to step out of your shoes and see, like, what now is either we've perceived everything. That that's what I have a problem with now with with Zeus. We're working on new documentation sites.
1072
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:12.200
And,
1073
01:15:12.760 --> 01:15:20.704
yeah, like, I I can't be the one to write. I'm too close to it. So all I can do is, like, you know, try to get the perspective of other people, help with the copy, and,
1074
01:15:21.405 --> 01:15:25.270
you know, just just try to figure it. Than ours. We don't even have search.
1075
01:15:26.690 --> 01:15:27.270
Oh, man.
1076
01:15:27.810 --> 01:15:29.510
That's alright. Hop in Google.
1077
01:15:31.315 --> 01:15:38.295
But, yeah, that's that's definitely one of the big projects we're putting together alongside our redesign this summer. But, yeah, documentation
1078
01:15:39.090 --> 01:15:45.590
is tricky. So, folks, if you're thinking about, you know, projects you like and you're not quite a programmer,
1079
01:15:46.755 --> 01:16:05.560
there's tons of ways to get involved. So Come redo the docs. Come Yeah. Come help come help come help the the cold card docs, please. The telephone needs is direly. Yeah. So, yeah, just just get involved, be vocal, try to reach out on the platforms that these projects are communicating on, whether it be IRC or other forums or the GitHub.
1080
01:16:06.245 --> 01:16:22.520
And there's there's always plenty of work to do with these projects. Yeah. So Many times you start folks. Yeah. Many times you need to start it. Why would I want to do this? Right? Why do I need to run a full node? Why would I want to connect it connect the wallet to it? You know? Why would I want to coin joint?
1081
01:16:23.435 --> 01:16:26.175
And, yeah, that's very it's all very valuable. Yeah.
1082
01:16:26.795 --> 01:16:28.494
Who people who are,
1083
01:16:28.954 --> 01:16:33.960
kind of just flooding the word about how why these people why these things are important and why why we need to
1084
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.639
we need to do this and be be very kind of
1085
01:16:38.059 --> 01:16:40.280
you know, hard line on on using
1086
01:16:40.605 --> 01:16:42.705
using these tools which are available to
1087
01:16:44.445 --> 01:16:47.665
us. So to open up, I have another question for you.
1088
01:16:48.190 --> 01:16:52.050
So how do we get more join market users?
1089
01:16:52.750 --> 01:16:55.170
Do we just need a better or or simpler
1090
01:16:55.790 --> 01:16:56.290
GUI?
1091
01:16:56.875 --> 01:16:58.575
Do we does it need a mobile app?
1092
01:16:59.435 --> 01:17:00.415
What what do you think?
1093
01:17:01.355 --> 01:17:04.815
Well, I mean, obviously, an API would be would be great. I mean,
1094
01:17:05.610 --> 01:17:14.030
not at the level where I could make it, but I can support it. Right? And there is work done to that extent. But, I mean, you know, it's like
1095
01:17:16.235 --> 01:17:16.735
like,
1096
01:17:17.114 --> 01:17:18.895
it's hot swing being the main core,
1097
01:17:19.995 --> 01:17:20.495
contributor
1098
01:17:21.195 --> 01:17:21.515
and,
1099
01:17:22.074 --> 01:17:24.770
kind of coordinator of the project and, like,
1100
01:17:25.230 --> 01:17:26.849
Chris Belcher and then a
1101
01:17:27.150 --> 01:17:29.570
couple of other people who are working on it, like, Christoph's.
1102
01:17:30.590 --> 01:17:31.170
I mean,
1103
01:17:31.635 --> 01:17:33.815
he's actually working a lot of, like,
1104
01:17:34.435 --> 01:17:35.335
little UI
1105
01:17:35.635 --> 01:17:40.215
things and and fixing bugs and stuff. But then, you know, some people are just
1106
01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:49.575
so much But these are programmers building UI. Right? Yeah. They're so much more interested in a protocol or, like, what are the cool things we can do. Right? And and how can
1107
01:17:50.135 --> 01:17:56.315
we make it You know, they Yeah. What'll be amazing is, like, you know, you have projects like BlueWallet
1108
01:17:57.190 --> 01:18:06.410
has a a tab called joy markets, right, that you just put the money and you press a button. Yeah. Right? That that's like if you want normal people to use it,
1109
01:18:06.715 --> 01:18:13.695
you want this very sort of toned down, pretty sort of phone wallet. The the phone wallets are interesting because they are stateful. Right?
1110
01:18:14.490 --> 01:18:16.430
And they're they're just always connected.
1111
01:18:17.130 --> 01:18:23.755
So, that that that could be an interesting thing. And then, you know, if you're putting 1,000 coins there, then you probably wanna do it from a secure
1112
01:18:24.235 --> 01:18:24.875
computer, but,
1113
01:18:25.435 --> 01:18:26.255
different problems.
1114
01:18:27.034 --> 01:18:31.135
I mean, one thing is that I mean, obviously, the number of makers,
1115
01:18:31.739 --> 01:18:33.760
you know, that I mean, when I was
1116
01:18:34.060 --> 01:18:37.119
started to kind of look at your own marketing, what, like, you know,
1117
01:18:37.420 --> 01:18:41.040
2 years ago or about, you know, we we are we're hitting, like, in a 100
1118
01:18:41.565 --> 01:18:44.385
100 orders, like, you know, 60 to 90.
1119
01:18:44.765 --> 01:18:45.745
It it was obviously
1120
01:18:46.205 --> 01:18:47.405
still on, like, the,
1121
01:18:47.885 --> 01:18:49.185
perhaps, segment addresses
1122
01:18:49.700 --> 01:18:51.560
and, you know, managed to,
1123
01:18:52.580 --> 01:18:53.080
kind
1124
01:18:53.620 --> 01:19:02.145
of have enough adoption of of native segment and also a bit of push from the community to kind of move over to to the native segment addresses like,
1125
01:19:02.704 --> 01:19:06.900
when was it? Like, I don't know. Like, was it a year ago, half year ago? I mean, it wasn't too
1126
01:19:07.380 --> 01:19:11.159
too long ago. But then now there is a sudden jump of of,
1127
01:19:11.780 --> 01:19:26.480
you know, in the number of makers of only. And then you can actually, obviously, just scan the scan the blockchain. There's a script in the joint markets kind of repo to do it, to identify joint market coin joints as well. And that is, like, you know, 6
1128
01:19:27.340 --> 01:19:28.400
30, 60,
1129
01:19:29.180 --> 01:19:31.965
200 kind of transactions per day,
1130
01:19:32.685 --> 01:19:34.145
being done with joint marketing.
1131
01:19:34.764 --> 01:19:35.264
NAMS,
1132
01:19:35.724 --> 01:19:42.060
the the they they used to have a lot of users, but this was way back when that project started.
1133
01:19:44.040 --> 01:19:45.420
When was it? Like, 2015
1134
01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:47.980
Yeah. That this came out?
1135
01:19:48.445 --> 01:19:51.585
Yeah. It was around 2015. There used to be a lot of users.
1136
01:19:52.045 --> 01:19:55.985
Yeah. And then sort of, like, you know, it sort of slowly
1137
01:19:56.525 --> 01:19:57.425
weighed off.
1138
01:19:57.960 --> 01:20:00.780
It seems like, yeah, it seems like it's picking up again now.
1139
01:20:01.160 --> 01:20:01.660
But,
1140
01:20:03.080 --> 01:20:07.020
there there used to be, you know, all the all the crowd that had a a need
1141
01:20:07.425 --> 01:20:12.805
for privacy that was a little bit more needed. And, also, they didn't
1142
01:20:13.425 --> 01:20:15.265
care about the fees because it was
1143
01:20:15.905 --> 01:20:22.619
That's right. I mean, obviously, much less value then. But I remember, like, there's, like, a tweet from Chris from, like, you know, 2015
1144
01:20:23.239 --> 01:20:28.855
that, oh, I that was a good day in joint market. I made, like, points 3 Bitcoin on it. Right? That's
1145
01:20:29.235 --> 01:20:31.335
Jeez. Yep. That that rules.
1146
01:20:31.875 --> 01:20:33.335
Yeah. It is it is crazy.
1147
01:20:34.220 --> 01:20:37.120
Yeah. How many coins you need for that. Right? It's like 100.
1148
01:20:38.700 --> 01:20:39.200
So
1149
01:20:39.580 --> 01:20:44.265
yeah. And the the usage, I think, obviously, the awareness needs to be
1150
01:20:46.005 --> 01:21:02.355
hooked up. And then, I mean, you know, if these things cost money, so, I mean, after all, you want to be a taker as well. So, okay, you can make some sense that she's being maker, but but to to gain proper privacy, you need to alternate the roles, and you want to be a taker as well. Then you need to pay first I mean,
1151
01:21:02.815 --> 01:21:03.315
it's
1152
01:21:03.855 --> 01:21:04.515
almost negligible
1153
01:21:05.055 --> 01:21:05.795
what you
1154
01:21:06.655 --> 01:21:10.995
need to pay for the takers because everybody's, like, you know, broken them breaking themselves
1155
01:21:12.110 --> 01:21:21.010
to to get into the coin joint, so they just know where the fees to close to 0. But the transaction fees are it can be significant, and we accept we we, you know,
1156
01:21:24.085 --> 01:21:30.585
expect the transaction fees to be to be quite high, you know, going forward. And that certainly does
1157
01:21:31.480 --> 01:21:32.539
take down the activity,
1158
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:34.139
the on chain activity.
1159
01:21:35.639 --> 01:21:39.260
And then Yeah. It looks like Capso Dell is a spy in the audience now.
1160
01:21:39.594 --> 01:21:41.614
You're supposed to be working here, dude.
1161
01:21:42.795 --> 01:21:43.935
That's about him.
1162
01:21:45.675 --> 01:21:47.295
Hold up. Hold up. I got it.
1163
01:21:49.690 --> 01:21:56.065
Damn. They let him out of early, man. The Department of Homeland Security let you out of interrogation early. Can't believe it.
1164
01:21:56.864 --> 01:22:02.645
Or or maybe maybe it is Dan using his phone. It could be. You know, the
1165
01:22:03.550 --> 01:22:05.730
the deep bakes, you could do a voice changer.
1166
01:22:06.350 --> 01:22:08.610
We'll test him. We'll test him. We'll know for sure.
1167
01:22:09.950 --> 01:22:11.810
That is if he joins. Who knows?
1168
01:22:12.885 --> 01:22:15.545
But while Matt tries to join or maybe not,
1169
01:22:16.485 --> 01:22:19.465
Nams, does join market have any, like, bounties?
1170
01:22:20.460 --> 01:22:26.400
Because, personally, I would really like to see an API get built around for it. That would really extend its the use of it.
1171
01:22:27.340 --> 01:22:31.455
So is there, like, a bounty system, or do we have to put one together ourselves to get this made?
1172
01:22:33.675 --> 01:22:41.360
Well, there was Yeah. There was already a request coming from, like, a Nifty nine. These are 2 kind of somehow
1173
01:22:41.980 --> 01:22:44.560
coordinate with the dual funded channels and
1174
01:22:45.465 --> 01:22:46.764
and and coin joints.
1175
01:22:47.385 --> 01:22:52.925
Yes. But they I know Yeah. Obviously, an API would be would be a big step forward. I mean, the thing is you need to,
1176
01:22:53.240 --> 01:22:53.740
yeah,
1177
01:22:55.160 --> 01:22:56.060
you need to motivate
1178
01:22:56.360 --> 01:22:58.620
motivate the people who are
1179
01:23:00.680 --> 01:23:01.900
able to make it,
1180
01:23:03.534 --> 01:23:06.914
who are probably already existing kind of job developers
1181
01:23:07.215 --> 01:23:09.954
to to do it. Yeah. I mean, you know, upon
1182
01:23:11.135 --> 01:23:11.635
surely,
1183
01:23:12.170 --> 01:23:12.909
there was
1184
01:23:13.929 --> 01:23:16.269
quite significant bounties from, like,
1185
01:23:22.114 --> 01:23:30.680
have put them on anyway for, like, just going to an implementation. Right? Which was, like, jointly jointly taken by, like, Wasabi and and and Sunrise as well.
1186
01:23:31.300 --> 01:23:38.920
Right? Or I'm not not not sure. I'm I'm I'm sure that, kind of the first kind of user friendly point of implementation
1187
01:23:39.805 --> 01:23:41.585
bounty was taken up by Sabi,
1188
01:23:42.125 --> 01:23:45.905
you know, when they started, and it was quite, quite a huge thing. It impressed everyone.
1189
01:23:47.930 --> 01:23:49.710
But, yeah, there should be. Is
1190
01:23:50.570 --> 01:23:53.630
is it not Yeah. It just seems to me like since there's no
1191
01:23:54.345 --> 01:24:04.730
financial incentive for, like, the centralized coordinator because there is no coordinator. Right? It's not like There is. Right? I mean, like, if you if you are people who wanna have more privacy,
1192
01:24:05.430 --> 01:24:07.770
especially if you have a lot of income,
1193
01:24:08.790 --> 01:24:13.945
it's probably in our interest to make it easy for people to put in their clean coins in there,
1194
01:24:14.804 --> 01:24:20.824
or or even their sort of more complicated coins in there to get all mixed in. Right? You you are looking for more liquidity
1195
01:24:21.320 --> 01:24:22.940
in there to get more privacy.
1196
01:24:23.960 --> 01:24:27.740
Liquidity more takers as well. Fair. That's fair. So more more usage.
1197
01:24:28.905 --> 01:24:33.005
Because, I mean, by default, if you just run I mean, you have, like, a joint market queue
1198
01:24:33.705 --> 01:24:36.205
Some technical difficulties. I I can hear you.
1199
01:24:48.375 --> 01:24:51.275
Uh-oh. Some technical difficulties here. I I can hear you, Evan.
1200
01:24:52.590 --> 01:24:53.090
Sure.
1201
01:24:53.470 --> 01:24:54.030
Yeah. We lost
1202
01:24:54.990 --> 01:24:56.930
yes. Some some connection issues.
1203
01:24:57.710 --> 01:24:59.795
NAMS, what were you saying? Do we have you back?
1204
01:25:00.995 --> 01:25:06.295
I think I've I've have I been away? I still have the captions going for myself and for you as well.
1205
01:25:07.235 --> 01:25:07.735
Interesting.
1206
01:25:08.195 --> 01:25:09.780
Yeah. We lost you there for a second.
1207
01:25:10.900 --> 01:25:12.840
But, yeah, we're we're just talking about potentially,
1208
01:25:13.860 --> 01:25:19.765
you know, getting an API for this thing and supporting this thing. If we have an API, we'll get more liquidity in it.
1209
01:25:20.325 --> 01:25:22.985
That should be incentive enough for some of these big whales to
1210
01:25:23.765 --> 01:25:25.785
contribute to a potential bounty. Right?
1211
01:25:28.550 --> 01:25:31.130
Yes. I mean, there there are a couple of,
1212
01:25:31.909 --> 01:25:35.610
write ups done for, like, a loose architecture and,
1213
01:25:36.844 --> 01:25:40.785
yeah, I think I've already spoke to Fountain from,
1214
01:25:41.165 --> 01:25:45.745
fully noted that he is, you know, want to plug into that. And then, obviously, he was interested
1215
01:25:46.050 --> 01:25:49.430
to have seen that there was not much to plug into so far. But,
1216
01:25:50.370 --> 01:25:50.870
yes.
1217
01:25:53.545 --> 01:25:56.125
You know, this is for this up for discussion for sure.
1218
01:25:56.985 --> 01:25:59.244
Interesting. I'll have to get a little more
1219
01:26:00.540 --> 01:26:08.239
involved on that front. That's definitely something I'd like to see between that and, tying into lightning channel open. So a lot of exciting stuff going
1220
01:26:08.815 --> 01:26:32.095
on on that. Things just like you know, there's this I mean, obviously, I cannot speak any in the name of anyone who's who is related to kind of this open sets project, you know. But this is something which would also the h f. You know? This is something which they would probably be very happy to kind of Yeah. So if anyone if if by chance there's anyone who might be involved with open SaaS listening,
1221
01:26:32.650 --> 01:26:39.230
Yeah. Take a note. We'd really like to see something like this happen. You know? Might might end up taking this API and working on an app myself
1222
01:26:39.815 --> 01:26:40.635
for a mobile
1223
01:26:41.255 --> 01:26:47.115
combination. I got a freak in my DMs. He's saying he's down for a million sats bounty. So
1224
01:26:47.580 --> 01:26:48.320
any potential
1225
01:26:48.699 --> 01:26:52.960
potential devs thinking about implementing it, you know, the sats are coming in from the freaks.
1226
01:26:53.659 --> 01:26:55.679
A lot of people are interested in it.
1227
01:26:55.985 --> 01:27:01.845
And, I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that since there's no, like, de facto central coordinator
1228
01:27:02.385 --> 01:27:03.905
to have the incentive to,
1229
01:27:04.700 --> 01:27:09.280
be iterating on stuff. We, as a community, we have to make sure we step up and make sure
1230
01:27:09.660 --> 01:27:13.455
that we're contributing either with code or financially to the projects that,
1231
01:27:14.015 --> 01:27:16.595
you know, or projects or wrappers that we wanna see built.
1232
01:27:17.535 --> 01:27:21.315
I mean, obviously, here, the challenge is that you don't have a you actually don't have
1233
01:27:22.969 --> 01:27:27.150
a central server coordinator to plug into. Right? So,
1234
01:27:28.250 --> 01:27:28.909
I mean
1235
01:27:29.290 --> 01:27:31.790
so you would need to run your Feature, not a bug.
1236
01:27:32.715 --> 01:27:39.115
Yeah. Absolutely. Obviously, this is this is the implementation which you cannot run without having Bitcoin Core fully synced. Right? So
1237
01:27:39.515 --> 01:27:47.160
and you need to kind you can connect to someone else's Bitcoin core node, but that would be, you know, not that easy and,
1238
01:27:47.780 --> 01:27:51.385
you know, not a default kind of behavior for anyone. So,
1239
01:27:52.725 --> 01:27:56.185
the thing is that you would still be around your node, and for that,
1240
01:27:57.125 --> 01:27:58.745
I mean, you really need to
1241
01:27:59.100 --> 01:28:11.095
have, like, a a remote. I mean, yes, Ceaseus would be a a great remote for to send commercial money transactions. But, what you can do is, you know, take the these those exports
1242
01:28:12.195 --> 01:28:13.415
and construct transactions.
1243
01:28:13.715 --> 01:28:14.935
And there is
1244
01:28:16.090 --> 01:28:17.790
s with ck bunker,
1245
01:28:18.250 --> 01:28:21.230
same with joint market. You can just paste an
1246
01:28:22.955 --> 01:28:24.495
add a non sign PSBT,
1247
01:28:24.955 --> 01:28:29.935
a construct PSBT, which you can just sign and develop to after giving you a passport password.
1248
01:28:30.440 --> 01:28:33.660
Right? Not your passport. No password. Right?
1249
01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:35.420
So
1250
01:28:36.040 --> 01:28:41.535
You got you need to provide your, to to bring it back to early, you gotta press dodge your vaccine passport to mix.
1251
01:28:43.355 --> 01:28:44.495
Yeah. No. So
1252
01:28:45.490 --> 01:28:48.070
so you can sign an externally constructed
1253
01:28:48.450 --> 01:28:54.310
PSPT with join markets in the command line or, like, the join inbox, you can just use that little menu,
1254
01:28:55.025 --> 01:28:56.165
which I put together,
1255
01:28:57.744 --> 01:29:02.165
and, you know, I mean, it could be properly implemented in the QT interface as well.
1256
01:29:03.210 --> 01:29:06.190
And that's how I would I would really kind of send,
1257
01:29:08.090 --> 01:29:09.550
you know, money out of there,
1258
01:29:11.370 --> 01:29:12.725
not not with
1259
01:29:13.105 --> 01:29:17.205
a connected light wallet or like a or like a mobile wallet, to be honest.
1260
01:29:17.505 --> 01:29:18.005
But
1261
01:29:19.910 --> 01:29:25.130
But just coordinating from another separate wallet, right, that just has the xpubs, and then when you're ready
1262
01:29:26.070 --> 01:29:34.864
to add them to the pool or whatever, you just move them over. So so it's it's very technical to kind of run I mean, very technical. So, you know, you need to jump that
1263
01:29:35.420 --> 01:29:40.480
fence to be able to to run your own noise and just set up your own market
1264
01:29:41.980 --> 01:29:51.100
and have it running to be able to connect back to it. Right? So it's not like Yeah. Yeah. Central service, you could you with an API, which you can just plug into and use.
1265
01:29:51.580 --> 01:29:58.000
Yeah. Remote control is just, like we do on Zeus. Yeah. That'd be really cool. So it's yeah. It's similar with lightning. Right?
1266
01:29:58.475 --> 01:30:05.455
That you will Exactly. Either use use a custody or service, which you should I mean, with lightning, you do because it's only pocket money. But, obviously,
1267
01:30:06.235 --> 01:30:13.210
with your, you know, significant amount of your of your savings or your, like, months of salary and stuff like that, you know, you shouldn't put it into a custody or
1268
01:30:13.910 --> 01:30:14.410
coinjoin
1269
01:30:15.025 --> 01:30:27.900
or not even, like, you know, any custody mixer. There's been just a post by Bitcoin q and a about him being approached by by someone who's has lost his money using a website, which I won't,
1270
01:30:28.280 --> 01:30:31.020
you know, say here, but this is an obvious scam,
1271
01:30:34.795 --> 01:30:35.855
advertised to be
1272
01:30:36.155 --> 01:30:45.770
a customer mix. So so that's a huge no or no. Right? So you would only use your own nose, and that's you'd need to have it running. And then
1273
01:30:46.230 --> 01:30:47.369
do you then need
1274
01:30:48.389 --> 01:30:49.369
a remote control?
1275
01:30:51.255 --> 01:30:55.115
Yeah. Definitely not trivial. Definitely a lot of challenges in there, but
1276
01:30:55.495 --> 01:31:00.930
at the same time, that's the ultimate. It's it's definitely worth pursuing and and definitely worth trying to get some people,
1277
01:31:01.650 --> 01:31:03.350
trying to make it all one comprehensive,
1278
01:31:04.050 --> 01:31:14.685
experience on the go. So let's see. And, you know, it looks like people are willing to put up money towards it. I got another freak on top of the original one in my DM saying they're good for another 1000000 stats.
1279
01:31:15.520 --> 01:31:18.100
Privacy is only for people that have something to hide.
1280
01:31:22.825 --> 01:31:23.565
Yeah. I
1281
01:31:23.865 --> 01:31:25.085
mean, if you,
1282
01:31:27.385 --> 01:31:29.405
I mean, it was only for people who don't want,
1283
01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:33.860
you know, people you send money to to know every damn thing. You know? I mean,
1284
01:31:34.720 --> 01:31:37.380
we gotta be open about it with an transparent ledger
1285
01:31:38.400 --> 01:31:39.380
without mixing,
1286
01:31:39.785 --> 01:31:41.405
right, and and second layer tools.
1287
01:31:41.945 --> 01:31:43.565
Bitcoin is like the perfect,
1288
01:31:44.265 --> 01:31:44.765
surveillance
1289
01:31:45.225 --> 01:31:45.725
technology.
1290
01:31:46.505 --> 01:31:51.340
So we need to do we need to, a, take advantage, right, that we have that surveillance technology
1291
01:31:51.800 --> 01:31:53.980
to get assurances about Bitcoin supply,
1292
01:31:54.440 --> 01:31:56.780
but also, b, need to counter that
1293
01:31:57.355 --> 01:31:59.695
in our own economic transaction. So
1294
01:32:00.315 --> 01:32:02.735
it's hell of a dichotomy, let me tell you.
1295
01:32:03.595 --> 01:32:06.095
But it's definitely worth fighting for in my opinion.
1296
01:32:07.510 --> 01:32:10.570
Would would in your opinion, a web interface be,
1297
01:32:11.110 --> 01:32:13.690
you know, considered safe enough, be useful
1298
01:32:17.485 --> 01:32:27.599
to to do this. Because, obviously, now, what, you know, I mean, what I built at join a box and what is available is, like, you have at the EverQT interface, which is somewhat
1299
01:32:27.980 --> 01:32:28.389
kind of
1300
01:32:31.855 --> 01:32:35.875
yeah, you need Linux to run basically because because on on
1301
01:32:36.335 --> 01:32:36.835
Windows,
1302
01:32:37.295 --> 01:32:43.940
it's just not solved how to how to run your own node and set it up the tour and everything else. It's it's just counterintuitive
1303
01:32:44.400 --> 01:32:50.340
when you're on Windows. When you get down to it, the Windows platform is just like a giant piece of spyware.
1304
01:32:51.025 --> 01:32:52.565
You know? Yes. It sucks.
1305
01:32:53.105 --> 01:32:56.965
And, you know, macOS is much better in that it's based on FreeBSD,
1306
01:32:57.265 --> 01:32:59.765
but it still phones home, and there's a lot of bloatware.
1307
01:33:00.220 --> 01:33:02.160
But, yeah, you really need FreeBSD
1308
01:33:02.780 --> 01:33:03.600
or Linux.
1309
01:33:04.220 --> 01:33:05.660
But Rodolfo left before my,
1310
01:33:07.180 --> 01:33:17.074
FreeBSD plug. But, yeah, you really need if you're if you're worrying about stuff like your privacy, you really do need a stack that's based on free and open source software.
1311
01:33:18.070 --> 01:33:21.290
60 one zero two is messaging me. He's saying build into Sparrow.
1312
01:33:21.830 --> 01:33:23.290
That would be incredible too.
1313
01:33:23.750 --> 01:33:27.205
Hell, I think these tools should be built in and have compatibility
1314
01:33:28.065 --> 01:33:28.945
with each other,
1315
01:33:29.505 --> 01:33:30.645
as much as possible.
1316
01:33:31.185 --> 01:33:32.465
You know, like, when you talk about,
1317
01:33:33.640 --> 01:33:38.380
having support for this and and say Zeus or something, like, I would also love the ability
1318
01:33:39.160 --> 01:33:45.235
to have your SAMROW PS I mean, b t it's not your PS. B t x pub's to be imported, your XPubs, your YPUBs, everything.
1319
01:33:46.895 --> 01:33:49.155
Same for, you know, calling it from Gold Card.
1320
01:33:49.695 --> 01:33:56.550
And, yeah, I I think a lot of things are gonna be built up to go in that direction. We just need the application protocol interface
1321
01:33:57.090 --> 01:34:00.870
to be able to communicate to it, NAM. So let's see if we can make it happen.
1322
01:34:02.195 --> 01:34:10.695
So would you guys mind if I kinda brought us back to where we started on the join market part where we were kinda talking about liquid and lightning here?
1323
01:34:11.380 --> 01:34:18.120
And he seems to Great. Let's bring it back, Chaz. Let's bring it back. Sure. So I was I was talking to Fiat Jaffe,
1324
01:34:19.335 --> 01:34:21.755
and he seems to Love that guy. What's up?
1325
01:34:23.175 --> 01:34:31.270
I'm sorry to cut you off. I was just saying I love Fiat Jaffe. He's an great individual. Right. So yeah. Like and that was a really, fun conversation. But,
1326
01:34:32.210 --> 01:34:40.554
point is is that he he he was kind of alluding kind of what you were saying before about using liquid and lightning at the same time. Maybe a small
1327
01:34:41.070 --> 01:34:44.130
distinction there but like he was talking about using,
1328
01:34:44.750 --> 01:34:45.250
lightning,
1329
01:34:46.190 --> 01:34:52.895
on liquid with Bitcoin lightning basically using a bridge And he was talking about that if it was set up correctly,
1330
01:34:53.515 --> 01:34:56.735
that you'd be able to route between the two networks.
1331
01:34:57.409 --> 01:35:00.550
So the thought that I wanna throw out there is, you know,
1332
01:35:00.929 --> 01:35:11.305
that the way, you know, the way that it makes sense to onboard to Lightning right now might be both on chain or directly over Lightning via, you know, someone else providing that liquidity.
1333
01:35:12.840 --> 01:35:19.020
But in the future, you might be onboarding to the Bitcoin lightning network via liquid lightning.
1334
01:35:19.560 --> 01:35:21.340
Just a random ass slot here.
1335
01:35:23.195 --> 01:35:30.175
Yeah. That that that would solve the problem. Yeah. That would solve the problem as well. Right? Because you were free to leave
1336
01:35:30.475 --> 01:35:31.035
through these
1337
01:35:31.890 --> 01:35:35.510
basically, we'd pick out the lightning, which is, I mean, much more
1338
01:35:35.810 --> 01:35:37.750
much less traceable within,
1339
01:35:38.290 --> 01:35:39.030
our chain.
1340
01:35:40.435 --> 01:35:44.695
Absolutely. It's it's gonna be interesting to see, like, each hop, like, let's say, on the Lightning Network
1341
01:35:45.475 --> 01:35:47.110
potentially advertising, like,
1342
01:35:47.909 --> 01:35:55.945
you know, there there are liquid lightning routes too and saying, okay. Yeah. I'm good for it. I I will accept your liquid lightning SaaS. They're, you know,
1343
01:35:56.885 --> 01:36:00.264
as good in my eyes, or or maybe you have some sort of weird
1344
01:36:00.885 --> 01:36:07.680
ratio at which you'll accept them. But, yeah, things are gonna become a lot more dynamic on that front, and things are gonna get
1345
01:36:08.300 --> 01:36:09.900
quite interesting with those,
1346
01:36:10.605 --> 01:36:14.465
sort of cross side chain swaps as far as ln stuff goes. So,
1347
01:36:15.165 --> 01:36:20.145
you know, obviously, a colossal has to be built out, but, I definitely see the potential for
1348
01:36:20.670 --> 01:36:23.250
that being a pretty dynamic ecosystem.
1349
01:36:24.429 --> 01:36:27.570
Yeah. I I just see for the trade off, you would just,
1350
01:36:28.635 --> 01:36:29.135
charge
1351
01:36:29.514 --> 01:36:30.014
large
1352
01:36:30.474 --> 01:36:38.560
routing fee. Exactly. So, like, you your your routing fee on one of the networks might be larger if you're doing a swap to another
1353
01:36:39.179 --> 01:36:42.239
as like, if you're going from lightning to liquid lightning, you say, okay.
1354
01:36:42.540 --> 01:36:46.324
I I'm I wanna do the swap because it's gonna cost me to pig out.
1355
01:36:46.625 --> 01:36:48.324
So my fees are higher. Yeah. Yeah.
1356
01:36:50.065 --> 01:36:53.525
Let's see. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I don't know. You are breaking up.
1357
01:36:54.710 --> 01:36:56.730
Oh, no. Hear you. Yes.
1358
01:36:57.429 --> 01:37:05.945
Uh-oh. Let's see. I think we just lost him there. Sorry, guys. We've seen that sometimes Can you guys hear me now? Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yes. No. You're back.
1359
01:37:06.485 --> 01:37:07.385
Okay. Yeah.
1360
01:37:07.925 --> 01:37:12.989
Sorry, guys. We seem to have some technical issues. It's not quite as smooth an experience
1361
01:37:13.290 --> 01:37:14.030
just connecting,
1362
01:37:14.570 --> 01:37:17.070
through our traditional channels for sit down dispatch.
1363
01:37:17.770 --> 01:37:19.230
But, still really
1364
01:37:19.695 --> 01:37:23.555
appreciate chatting with you guys all on this format. It's it's been so much fun.
1365
01:37:24.175 --> 01:37:31.360
But, yeah, there's definitely gonna be I mean, I think we're just scratching the surface with the stuff. Like, lightning is just starting to really get used now,
1366
01:37:31.740 --> 01:37:35.040
and hardly anyone uses liquid right now. Right? So,
1367
01:37:36.085 --> 01:37:39.864
over the next, let's say, 4 years are gonna be really interesting to figure out,
1368
01:37:41.205 --> 01:37:43.304
you know, all the use cases for them and,
1369
01:37:44.070 --> 01:37:45.050
you know, the interoperability
1370
01:37:45.750 --> 01:37:46.889
between them. So
1371
01:37:47.590 --> 01:37:48.090
So
1372
01:37:48.630 --> 01:37:51.130
A lot of a lot of exciting stuff on l 2.
1373
01:37:52.869 --> 01:37:54.010
Yeah. Go ahead, Nams.
1374
01:37:54.935 --> 01:37:55.675
Oh, yes.
1375
01:37:56.055 --> 01:38:02.555
I'm not sure. Just tell me if you don't hear me well. So that, it would be very interesting that, people would,
1376
01:38:06.230 --> 01:38:14.495
which direction it would be. But I was I was just thinking that how funny it would be that you would have have very cheap kind of on chain transactions on liquid, but then
1377
01:38:14.875 --> 01:38:18.735
the Lightning Network on liquid would be so expensive because
1378
01:38:19.114 --> 01:38:19.855
you just
1379
01:38:21.840 --> 01:38:23.940
charge to provide that service
1380
01:38:25.600 --> 01:38:26.740
by values.
1381
01:38:28.240 --> 01:38:32.295
And, you know, it would be the complete opposite of what happens on
1382
01:38:33.235 --> 01:38:33.975
on Bitcoin.
1383
01:38:37.680 --> 01:38:42.660
But the, yeah, the the flow of funds would be that, obviously, they would be moving
1384
01:38:43.280 --> 01:38:43.780
in
1385
01:38:44.175 --> 01:38:51.315
liquid on chain, and then they would move out through lightning. So, yes, you could, charge the aisle routing fees.
1386
01:38:52.500 --> 01:38:55.880
And, you know, people would get privacy in this direction.
1387
01:39:00.175 --> 01:39:04.995
So I just wonder if, you know, we're gonna see routing nodes that
1388
01:39:05.615 --> 01:39:11.540
are routing across multiple Lightning Networks. Like, I don't necessarily wanna get into the subject of shitcoins here.
1389
01:39:11.920 --> 01:39:18.100
I'm, you know, on a shaky ground with, liquid, I'm sure, with some people, but
1390
01:39:19.755 --> 01:39:29.710
I I still see, you know, block space on Bitcoin being insanely valuable at one point, and so you're gonna have all kinds of different entry points.
1391
01:39:30.090 --> 01:39:34.110
So you might have an entry point on Shitcoins, Lightning Network,
1392
01:39:35.204 --> 01:39:39.704
as well. We don't I don't I'm not aware of any other Lightning Network because that's even,
1393
01:39:40.164 --> 01:39:42.985
you know, half as relevant as Bitcoin's. Lightning's,
1394
01:39:43.330 --> 01:39:46.150
or I'm sorry, Litecoin's Lightning Network has, like, $30,000
1395
01:39:46.690 --> 01:39:50.390
on it compared to Bitcoin's, like, 50,000,000 or 60,000,000.
1396
01:39:51.495 --> 01:39:54.215
So it's There's there's there's a couple.
1397
01:39:54.775 --> 01:39:58.475
Someone for Zeus on some shitcoin called Grosso coin.
1398
01:39:59.210 --> 01:40:05.949
And, yeah, it's just floating up, I think, on the iOS app store. So they I guess they got one. I I really don't know how much capital is up on there.
1399
01:40:06.385 --> 01:40:08.805
But, Chaz, I think to answer your question about, like, interoperability
1400
01:40:09.185 --> 01:40:09.925
between them,
1401
01:40:10.785 --> 01:40:13.525
you know, beyond thinking about something like RGB
1402
01:40:14.065 --> 01:40:14.565
on
1403
01:40:15.270 --> 01:40:17.770
lightning and, Omnibolt or whatever,
1404
01:40:19.350 --> 01:40:28.705
the interoperability works because at the end of the day, we're talking about the same units. Right? Like, a liquid sat and a lightning sat are pretty much, you know, supposed to be the the same value.
1405
01:40:29.244 --> 01:40:35.010
So when you're adding, like, other units in, like, a light coin sat, like, then things get hairy and,
1406
01:40:36.030 --> 01:40:39.650
you know, what do your channels even mean at that point? It gets complicated.
1407
01:40:40.335 --> 01:40:45.635
I guess maybe my point went too off the rails there, but kinda bring it back to reality here.
1408
01:40:46.255 --> 01:40:51.370
If we're just to stay within maybe just liquid and lightning and maybe some, you know, theoretical
1409
01:40:51.750 --> 01:40:55.770
blind state chains that would come after we get any printout and l 2,
1410
01:40:57.015 --> 01:41:02.475
Like, I I just see that you're gonna have some nerd sitting here with the Raspberry Pi making
1411
01:41:02.855 --> 01:41:05.355
all kinds of money doing these kind of,
1412
01:41:06.160 --> 01:41:12.980
providing liquidity in different ways for different privacy services for your joint markets, for your lightning networks, for your liquid
1413
01:41:13.440 --> 01:41:13.940
routing.
1414
01:41:14.315 --> 01:41:19.675
Like, what other fancy sci fi shit are we you know, can we think of here? Their thumbs in all these different
1415
01:41:20.554 --> 01:41:25.220
Well, I I think you're totally on the money. Like, people just connected to all the different services
1416
01:41:25.680 --> 01:41:30.660
that have their thumbs in all these different pools or whatever. They have the liquidity going all these different ways,
1417
01:41:31.045 --> 01:41:36.025
And they're just a router. They're just an operator at the end of the table, you know, like,
1418
01:41:36.804 --> 01:41:41.699
like, similar to a phone operator, and they're just making sure your stats get from one destination
1419
01:41:42.239 --> 01:41:46.099
to the other. And, you know, that could be their whole career, just facilitating
1420
01:41:46.400 --> 01:41:47.060
that liquidity,
1421
01:41:48.515 --> 01:41:50.935
from one place to another for a party.
1422
01:41:51.795 --> 01:41:54.135
All sorts of swaps, all sorts of,
1423
01:41:54.680 --> 01:41:56.140
you know, coin joints.
1424
01:41:57.960 --> 01:42:00.780
I don't know. It could get really interesting, really.
1425
01:42:02.375 --> 01:42:04.554
Is it possible for us to get to,
1426
01:42:05.815 --> 01:42:13.909
just up her backup here just to kinda maybe hear his thoughts on, you know, throwing liquid into the mix and how it would make his life a living hell maybe.
1427
01:42:14.449 --> 01:42:18.550
Yeah. I mean, that that would be great if you could just for up here. One. Let's see. Hold up.
1428
01:42:22.315 --> 01:42:26.574
Yeah. I mean, that that would be great if we could get Justin for up here. He wants. Let's see. Hold up.
1429
01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:30.330
Yeah. No pressure, bro. Just to make sure we're still recording.
1430
01:42:34.070 --> 01:42:37.534
We'll give him a second. I I wanna make a correction from earlier.
1431
01:42:39.275 --> 01:42:41.215
I was calling Amboss
1432
01:42:41.675 --> 01:42:42.175
Ambos,
1433
01:42:43.030 --> 01:42:44.410
but it is pronounced
1434
01:42:44.790 --> 01:42:45.770
Am Bos.
1435
01:42:46.710 --> 01:42:51.415
So that's just the first lightning network graph explorer. You should all check it out.
1436
01:42:52.615 --> 01:42:57.435
If you're into UI or messing with these lightning back ends, you should definitely get involved with that project.
1437
01:42:58.455 --> 01:43:05.830
It definitely has a lot of potential, and I've been finding myself using it a bunch. Looks really nice. Gonna join us, Jennifer? Oh, well. That's fine.
1438
01:43:06.610 --> 01:43:07.110
So
1439
01:43:07.555 --> 01:43:08.855
something kind of
1440
01:43:10.595 --> 01:43:13.815
not gonna join us, Jesifor? Oh, well. That's fine.
1441
01:43:14.595 --> 01:43:15.095
So
1442
01:43:15.650 --> 01:43:25.165
something kind of totally different that I that I wanted to go into here versus just staying on that topic is something that I am not concerned about, but I think this is gonna happen just because
1443
01:43:25.625 --> 01:43:27.725
Bitcoin's ecosystem is just slow,
1444
01:43:28.265 --> 01:43:30.445
to roll out updates and things is,
1445
01:43:31.065 --> 01:43:31.565
Taproot
1446
01:43:31.865 --> 01:43:33.005
oh oh, Jessica,
1447
01:43:33.780 --> 01:43:37.400
before I go too far. Were you gonna what would you would you wanna comment? Oh, there he is.
1448
01:43:38.659 --> 01:43:44.825
I might have missed, the initial comment. I did hear the AMBOSS shout out, so thank you a ton for that.
1449
01:43:45.605 --> 01:43:47.385
But I missed the question. Sorry.
1450
01:43:48.725 --> 01:43:50.745
So we were just kinda talking about,
1451
01:43:51.125 --> 01:43:51.785
you know,
1452
01:43:52.160 --> 01:43:56.020
you're a lightning node operator at the moment. You know?
1453
01:43:56.400 --> 01:44:01.140
Do you do you like or hate the idea of potentially adding liquid into the mix
1454
01:44:01.695 --> 01:44:03.315
and, you know, expanding
1455
01:44:03.695 --> 01:44:12.600
the definition of what, you know, an operator would be. Right? Yeah. We're basically you're sending it to I'm pretty excited about it. It's it's come up a couple of times.
1456
01:44:13.060 --> 01:44:13.560
And,
1457
01:44:14.100 --> 01:44:17.160
like, in in some of the in some of the, like, the arbitrage
1458
01:44:18.155 --> 01:44:20.014
things that you might do as
1459
01:44:20.474 --> 01:44:25.215
a a router where basically you're sending it to yourself through complicated means,
1460
01:44:25.630 --> 01:44:27.090
but but you end up trusting,
1461
01:44:28.030 --> 01:44:30.130
some some custodial entities.
1462
01:44:31.070 --> 01:44:31.570
And,
1463
01:44:31.870 --> 01:44:32.770
like, as,
1464
01:44:34.985 --> 01:44:42.364
so so for me, for example, I'll I'll deposit funds into a Bitfinex account because it's, you know, 0 k y c.
1465
01:44:43.910 --> 01:44:44.410
But,
1466
01:44:45.830 --> 01:44:48.410
I it only works at scale. So
1467
01:44:48.790 --> 01:44:50.250
I end up having to deposit
1468
01:44:50.790 --> 01:44:53.290
lots into there and sometimes I run out of liquidity.
1469
01:44:53.995 --> 01:44:56.255
So as an intermediate step,
1470
01:44:56.955 --> 01:44:58.015
involving liquid
1471
01:44:59.195 --> 01:45:00.175
in that step
1472
01:45:00.555 --> 01:45:04.270
is is pretty exciting where I could trust, you know, the
1473
01:45:04.730 --> 01:45:09.710
the the entire federation instead of just one singular entity.
1474
01:45:10.890 --> 01:45:13.585
So so that's it. It already makes
1475
01:45:13.965 --> 01:45:15.344
a kind of a a natural
1476
01:45:15.724 --> 01:45:16.704
marriage there,
1477
01:45:17.005 --> 01:45:18.784
but then also from
1478
01:45:19.100 --> 01:45:24.000
some of the privacy tools that are available on liquid, it I think it makes total sense.
1479
01:45:24.460 --> 01:45:28.735
I'm pretty excited. I mean, as far as Amboss' like business case for that,
1480
01:45:29.455 --> 01:45:33.875
just being able to, like, kind of coordinate the different market participants,
1481
01:45:35.135 --> 01:45:38.114
like, that's a that's a huge business case for us. So
1482
01:45:39.260 --> 01:45:40.480
pretty excited about,
1483
01:45:41.260 --> 01:45:42.240
the other integrations,
1484
01:45:43.900 --> 01:45:45.920
whether it be liquid or,
1485
01:45:46.380 --> 01:45:47.600
other lightning protocols.
1486
01:45:51.685 --> 01:45:54.245
Do you see yourself being some kind of,
1487
01:45:55.125 --> 01:45:57.865
state chain blind state chain signer?
1488
01:45:58.270 --> 01:46:02.210
Or maybe a, better question would be, do you see yourself kind of
1489
01:46:03.150 --> 01:46:04.929
or people in general, maybe just
1490
01:46:05.555 --> 01:46:08.935
individuals offering these kind of services to people,
1491
01:46:09.395 --> 01:46:14.490
you know, maybe a business or maybe just an individual being altruistic kind of thing. I got
1492
01:46:15.190 --> 01:46:15.690
6102.
1493
01:46:16.390 --> 01:46:19.190
Yeah. I mean, this is kind of an open market. So,
1494
01:46:19.670 --> 01:46:21.050
yeah. Why why not?
1495
01:46:22.625 --> 01:46:29.365
Get them all participating and, you know, see what see what shakes out and what's, what's sustainable. Oh, I got 6102
1496
01:46:30.065 --> 01:46:31.365
in my DM saying,
1497
01:46:32.930 --> 01:46:37.430
no privacy tools other than, confidential transactions, it sounds like,
1498
01:46:38.450 --> 01:46:39.430
on on Liquid.
1499
01:46:41.045 --> 01:46:55.360
On Liquid. Yeah. I mean, people think that a confidential transaction will just give you the same privacy as a coin join, and that's not really the case. So that's why Odell was sort of campaigning to get some sort of, coin join mechanism going on there.
1500
01:46:56.905 --> 01:46:59.945
And then 6102 also hit me up talking about,
1501
01:47:00.345 --> 01:47:04.490
going from liquid lightning to Bitcoin lightning and how it would be a swap. And,
1502
01:47:06.150 --> 01:47:07.610
someone needs to
1503
01:47:09.110 --> 01:47:13.610
be making on chain Bitcoin transactions to keep those channels balanced. So I guess that goes into,
1504
01:47:15.385 --> 01:47:23.244
you know, different roles that people would have to could play in terms of, you know, being connected to these different networks and providing services to get
1505
01:47:25.750 --> 01:47:27.849
to get SaaS from one place to another.
1506
01:47:30.605 --> 01:47:33.265
And he says, yeah. It's not it's not one to 1
1507
01:47:33.844 --> 01:47:34.344
on,
1508
01:47:35.165 --> 01:47:42.150
lightning sat versus liquid sat because you have to take into account the cost to peg out. So perhaps when you're doing a routing transaction,
1509
01:47:43.650 --> 01:47:44.150
for
1510
01:47:44.850 --> 01:47:47.510
going from one place to another and and you're crossing
1511
01:47:49.864 --> 01:47:51.244
from Bitcoin on lightning
1512
01:47:51.625 --> 01:47:54.605
to liquid or vice versa, you have to take into account,
1513
01:47:56.264 --> 01:48:00.580
you know, the cost to get there. So, at at Ensign, so it's economically,
1514
01:48:01.040 --> 01:48:06.625
viable to you. So there's gonna be a lot of different so yeah. Great great great point, 6102.
1515
01:48:07.565 --> 01:48:10.784
But, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of interesting different markets that arise
1516
01:48:11.244 --> 01:48:19.350
around these use cases for people who are, you know, got their funds in one form and need to get it somewhere else and another. So it's gonna be really interesting.
1517
01:48:23.585 --> 01:48:36.940
I I guess a big challenge in it is, like, broadcasting, like, how what your rates are and how to get it there and then facilitating that in the first place. I think that's that's what's really being built out right now. I think it's starting, like, right now with,
1518
01:48:37.800 --> 01:48:41.195
say, like, liquidity on lightning with stuff like Ellen Pool
1519
01:48:41.655 --> 01:48:48.315
and, say, the broadcasting of, like, getting liquidity that they're working on over at c lightning that was was talking about on
1520
01:48:49.110 --> 01:48:50.810
our lightning Friday session.
1521
01:48:52.870 --> 01:48:58.490
So, yeah, it's just about, like, how how are those mechanisms work and then these transfers are facilitated and how
1522
01:48:58.875 --> 01:49:00.975
these market makers advertise
1523
01:49:01.995 --> 01:49:04.475
their rates at at which they're willing to perform these,
1524
01:49:05.595 --> 01:49:06.735
liquidity functions.
1525
01:49:07.195 --> 01:49:11.099
So, yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to see these things develop over the next couple of years.
1526
01:49:11.420 --> 01:49:18.215
I'm super stoked. Like, on the quick I think it's really fun to kinda just watch the watch the market shift
1527
01:49:18.594 --> 01:49:19.495
as they get,
1528
01:49:19.955 --> 01:49:24.455
as the different participants get more information about, what the market is.
1529
01:49:25.730 --> 01:49:26.949
Because I know we got,
1530
01:49:27.489 --> 01:49:30.070
likes, you know, seed lightning liquidity ads.
1531
01:49:30.530 --> 01:49:31.030
That's
1532
01:49:31.409 --> 01:49:32.790
that's, like, around the corner,
1533
01:49:33.165 --> 01:49:37.185
but but then there's also, like, the pool auction results,
1534
01:49:38.205 --> 01:49:39.585
and and kind of,
1535
01:49:40.125 --> 01:49:44.610
comparing that to, like, where the mempool is at. So so there's all these different,
1536
01:49:45.730 --> 01:49:46.550
kind of, like,
1537
01:49:47.890 --> 01:49:48.710
market forces,
1538
01:49:49.490 --> 01:49:52.744
all these tools being developed, and then and then there's,
1539
01:49:53.065 --> 01:49:54.844
there's the mempool, which
1540
01:49:55.224 --> 01:50:09.494
is gonna kinda determine some of the pricing. I'm I'm curious how, like, channel stability is go going to play in there if if people are ending up with, with force closes and such. And I'm not sure how that how that's going to work between,
1541
01:50:09.875 --> 01:50:10.934
Lightning and Liquid
1542
01:50:12.434 --> 01:50:13.315
becoming more,
1543
01:50:13.715 --> 01:50:14.215
married.
1544
01:50:15.310 --> 01:50:19.170
Yeah. It's interesting to see, like, how that's gonna play into, like, ranking of nodes.
1545
01:50:19.630 --> 01:50:23.810
Like BOS scores, they have some ranking for, like, uptime or reliability,
1546
01:50:24.205 --> 01:50:27.745
right, as well as the quality of your liquidity and the amounts of it.
1547
01:50:28.205 --> 01:50:32.545
And, you know, it's really hard to sort of quantify the value of those things.
1548
01:50:33.030 --> 01:50:44.224
So these different algorithms sort of calculating it. I I think there needs to be a couple more, competing ones before we find that sweet spot. It's all sort of experimental right now. I know some people who've,
1549
01:50:44.945 --> 01:50:48.485
you know, may have been messing around with their BOS scores. Maybe they're in lightning,
1550
01:50:48.864 --> 01:50:49.364
terminal,
1551
01:50:49.830 --> 01:50:51.590
and they see it fluctuate a lot.
1552
01:50:52.790 --> 01:51:07.265
You know, this is really the frontier of things. We're figuring out everything right now. You know? Like, exchanges don't for the most part other than, like, Bitfinex and Okay Coin. Like, they don't have lightning yet. Right? Hardly anyone is using liquid.
1553
01:51:07.679 --> 01:51:11.619
So we need to go through, like, these price discovery phases and,
1554
01:51:11.920 --> 01:51:14.239
you know, figuring out which of these properties,
1555
01:51:15.595 --> 01:51:25.660
bring more value to the table as far as, like, your uptime and, you know, your history of channel closes and and all these things. And these reputation systems do need to build out right now.
1556
01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:29.900
It's it's pretty interesting and pretty awesome just
1557
01:51:30.895 --> 01:51:39.620
seeing it all be made from scratch. These are things that, like, weren't around I think it was lots of like, year and a half ago. Like, even even 2 years ago, it was just really when lightning started getting
1558
01:51:40.100 --> 01:51:44.520
exciting and usable, really. Yeah. Like, it's not gonna follow you around forever.
1559
01:51:45.620 --> 01:51:47.540
And Yeah. Totally. I the
1560
01:51:48.185 --> 01:51:52.045
all those the scores, I think there's lots of focus on the BOS score.
1561
01:51:52.505 --> 01:52:00.100
But I I view it kind of just like the your SAT scores or, your GPA. Like, it's not gonna follow you around forever.
1562
01:52:01.120 --> 01:52:05.594
And and maybe that's not the best metric to determine whether you're, like, a valuable,
1563
01:52:06.055 --> 01:52:07.755
you know, human being or not.
1564
01:52:08.535 --> 01:52:14.639
It's, it's it's just one score. It's just an opaque score, and there will be many, many more.
1565
01:52:15.900 --> 01:52:24.345
Yeah. There's gonna be the Kaluta score. I know Dell score can totally be 1 in the mix. So who knows, man? I mean, we all just need to
1566
01:52:24.940 --> 01:52:28.159
put it to practice and see how it pans out in the market and see if these
1567
01:52:28.540 --> 01:52:31.360
scores actually end up being of value. So
1568
01:52:32.295 --> 01:52:39.195
here's the time, and this is the time to experiment and figure out what works, what doesn't, what has value, and what what doesn't. So it's really exciting.
1569
01:52:42.990 --> 01:52:45.170
So I had another question. Sorry.
1570
01:52:46.765 --> 01:52:54.545
No. Go ahead, Chaz. Go for it. How much of a pain in the ass and how long is it going to fucking take to get Taproot,
1571
01:52:55.510 --> 01:52:58.090
widely adopted was gonna be my question.
1572
01:52:59.190 --> 01:53:04.275
Holy shit. Hopefully, not another 4 years like we saw with the SegWit stuff from, say, entities
1573
01:53:04.895 --> 01:53:05.395
like,
1574
01:53:06.895 --> 01:53:07.295
hopefully
1575
01:53:07.935 --> 01:53:08.435
Oh,
1576
01:53:10.015 --> 01:53:12.114
like like blockchain. Right? Blockchain.com.
1577
01:53:14.800 --> 01:53:19.940
Yeah. This this has been really a tooth pulling for the SegWit stuff to be adapted widely.
1578
01:53:21.605 --> 01:53:31.199
Hopefully, it doesn't take more than a year or 2 this time around to see the Taproot stuff really be taken into account. But the same time, it also has, like, much different use cases.
1579
01:53:31.820 --> 01:53:33.280
Whereas something like
1580
01:53:34.860 --> 01:53:38.895
Segwit, native Segwit, they pretty much cut down on costs all around.
1581
01:53:39.275 --> 01:53:43.455
It's not necessarily the case for these new tap reader addresses. Like, I believe
1582
01:53:44.130 --> 01:53:45.190
it's more expensive
1583
01:53:45.490 --> 01:53:47.910
to send to them, but it's then cheaper to receive.
1584
01:53:48.610 --> 01:53:50.870
So people really need to figure out the dynamics
1585
01:53:51.330 --> 01:53:53.350
around that as well. But,
1586
01:53:54.635 --> 01:54:01.534
I I feel as exchanges are, like, using stuff on 2nd layers, like lightning specifically,
1587
01:54:02.020 --> 01:54:04.360
in which Taproot is gonna provide them a lot of privacy,
1588
01:54:05.380 --> 01:54:09.080
you know, not leak out that information to their competitors and whatnot.
1589
01:54:09.460 --> 01:54:12.554
I think then when when there's these economic incentives,
1590
01:54:13.494 --> 01:54:18.554
for the actors themselves to be using them, then that helps facilitate things a lot more.
1591
01:54:19.260 --> 01:54:27.680
But also, you know, the the powerhouses in the space right now, I think they're more conscious of it. They're listening to their users more than say, like,
1592
01:54:28.675 --> 01:54:29.175
blockchain.com.
1593
01:54:29.635 --> 01:54:30.135
Right?
1594
01:54:32.195 --> 01:54:34.535
And, you know, there's always gonna be stranglers.
1595
01:54:35.235 --> 01:54:35.735
Right?
1596
01:54:36.520 --> 01:54:37.639
There's always gonna be someone
1597
01:54:38.199 --> 01:54:41.980
some business that, you know, it doesn't make sense for them,
1598
01:54:42.360 --> 01:54:43.900
as far as engineering resources.
1599
01:54:44.415 --> 01:54:47.795
But I definitely feel that this time around, it's gonna be much better off.
1600
01:54:49.215 --> 01:54:51.830
Yeah. I think first, they they will have
1601
01:54:52.230 --> 01:54:57.690
the ones with actual benefits. So the ones providing service, the vaults, the multisix services,
1602
01:54:59.875 --> 01:55:03.015
etcetera. Probably, lightning, hopefully, will be not
1603
01:55:04.595 --> 01:55:09.175
too far behind. And then once you get a good amount of
1604
01:55:09.860 --> 01:55:10.360
adoption,
1605
01:55:11.380 --> 01:55:21.645
then you have the privacy services coming on board as well because they would need the anonymity set. They cannot be first. So then you can think of, like, you know, joint market adopting, hopefully,
1606
01:55:22.585 --> 01:55:24.525
hopefully, some ride up thing. Hopefully,
1607
01:55:25.080 --> 01:55:25.820
you know,
1608
01:55:26.280 --> 01:55:26.780
Wasabi,
1609
01:55:27.480 --> 01:55:29.580
probably, they have, like, their Wasabi
1610
01:55:29.960 --> 01:55:30.860
thing coming,
1611
01:55:31.719 --> 01:55:32.460
by then.
1612
01:55:33.320 --> 01:55:34.060
And then
1613
01:55:35.245 --> 01:55:35.745
then,
1614
01:55:36.125 --> 01:55:38.785
you know, you will have a good chunk already.
1615
01:55:44.670 --> 01:55:45.170
Definitely.
1616
01:55:46.430 --> 01:55:53.410
Definitely. It's definitely gonna be the lightning people who, you know, they're the ones who stand to benefit the most from the privacy gains.
1617
01:55:54.575 --> 01:55:58.515
So definitely are gonna see it on the implementations like LND and c lightning,
1618
01:55:59.615 --> 01:56:02.800
before a lot of these other services. So absolutely.
1619
01:56:13.295 --> 01:56:17.475
Oh, man. We're coming up on 2 hours, folks. I think we're gonna call it soon. Yeah.
1620
01:56:18.815 --> 01:56:19.295
Yeah. I want
1621
01:56:20.520 --> 01:56:25.500
Did you think I I I was just thinking of one thing that, I've I've I've seen one pretty graph,
1622
01:56:26.599 --> 01:56:28.139
amongst amongst many,
1623
01:56:28.675 --> 01:56:30.615
which is the lightning the liquidity
1624
01:56:31.235 --> 01:56:34.215
increasing, you know, in the past couple
1625
01:56:34.515 --> 01:56:37.495
of weeks, months, maybe. Hell, hell, yeah.
1626
01:56:38.600 --> 01:56:44.460
Post like That's one graph that's going up into the right for sure. So we're we're definitely up in the all time high.
1627
01:56:44.845 --> 01:56:53.889
Like, that's that's why I'm in good spirits, folks. The the regular price doesn't really concern me as much. As long as that lightning liquidity is going up into the right, I'm a happy man.
1628
01:56:55.550 --> 01:56:58.050
Yep. And it's still just the public capacity.
1629
01:56:58.670 --> 01:57:00.909
Yeah. That's that's the thing. It's like, how
1630
01:57:01.835 --> 01:57:12.239
what percent do you think is in private channels? Like, at least another 30%, I would say. Maybe maybe I'm I'm bullish on private channels there. But No. Yeah. At least 20%.
1631
01:57:12.540 --> 01:57:13.040
Right?
1632
01:57:14.060 --> 01:57:16.880
I think 30% was the pass is the pessimistic,
1633
01:57:18.300 --> 01:57:18.800
stake
1634
01:57:19.435 --> 01:57:20.094
of 30%
1635
01:57:20.395 --> 01:57:23.135
being in private channels of the public capacity
1636
01:57:23.435 --> 01:57:26.815
because that was in, like, you know, 20
1637
01:57:27.360 --> 01:57:29.620
18, was it, when they when the research
1638
01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:34.020
have done this kind of, analysis, and they've come out with this
1639
01:57:34.320 --> 01:57:35.380
very rough estimate?
1640
01:57:36.335 --> 01:57:47.800
Because you can't really tell if the if the private channels were closed in a cooperative way. You know? It it's it's actually not that not that straightforward to filter them filter all of them out.
1641
01:57:49.060 --> 01:57:49.300
But,
1642
01:57:51.540 --> 01:57:58.375
now, you know, you have plenty of services which are known to use large private networks. So, you know,
1643
01:57:58.915 --> 01:58:18.115
there might be exchanges, but we certainly know about, like, strike. We, which is, you know, must be, like, a significant participant of the network. And I wouldn't be surprised if it would be, you know, comparable to something like like Alan Big. I mean, okay. Maybe not, but, you know, there there is there is plenty of things which
1644
01:58:19.780 --> 01:58:34.344
which do work like that and other like, other service providers, like all the all the custody of wallets, all the all the kind of, you know, lightning gaming and, you know, such things. So to be able to have the buffer of liquidity
1645
01:58:35.364 --> 01:58:36.985
in case of, like, big
1646
01:58:37.469 --> 01:58:38.530
peaks of usage,
1647
01:58:38.830 --> 01:58:39.330
then
1648
01:58:39.710 --> 01:58:41.250
you must have private channels
1649
01:58:42.909 --> 01:58:43.409
already
1650
01:58:44.030 --> 01:58:47.705
and armed. Right? And that might be even
1651
01:58:48.245 --> 01:58:48.745
higher
1652
01:58:49.365 --> 01:58:56.320
for things. And for, like, for example, Stripe for sure, but for, like, other services as well, it might be higher,
1653
01:58:58.160 --> 01:58:59.460
than the public capacity.
1654
01:58:59.840 --> 01:59:01.140
Just think of, like, services
1655
01:59:01.600 --> 01:59:02.420
running with
1656
01:59:02.775 --> 01:59:09.915
multiple nodes. You know, they they probably because there is no risk to them. Right? It's a 2 of 2 of 2 of their keys.
1657
01:59:10.640 --> 01:59:12.580
There's no risk to put, you know,
1658
01:59:13.280 --> 01:59:15.780
any you know, as much as they can afford,
1659
01:59:16.960 --> 01:59:21.475
into those private channels to have it just available anytime they need it.
1660
01:59:22.335 --> 01:59:33.545
Yeah. I mean, it it's not it's not zero not not zero risk, but minimal risk. I mean, it's a hot wallet. Right? You can still have things going on. But but and you also have to stake up the money ahead of time. Right? But, no, I definitely see
1661
01:59:33.925 --> 01:59:36.905
big enterprises, especially where they have, you
1662
01:59:37.205 --> 01:59:42.105
know, crucial relationships with each other, and they have these flows going a certain direction.
1663
01:59:42.500 --> 01:59:44.840
They're definitely gonna have private channels.
1664
01:59:45.300 --> 01:59:51.560
And they're gonna have these channels and not wanna broadcast them because they want liquidity in that direction for those crucial,
1665
01:59:52.915 --> 01:59:58.375
enterprise functions. Right? And they don't want other people just taking advantage of them for their own economic,
1666
01:59:59.395 --> 02:00:04.380
needs. Right? So they're gonna keep them private. They're gonna keep them between their counterparty and themselves.
1667
02:00:05.080 --> 02:00:09.935
And they're gonna use it to settle their, you know, pretty much their scheduled transactions
1668
02:00:10.795 --> 02:00:16.015
and be able to save on fees because they only have to commit to the on chain fee ahead of time,
1669
02:00:17.240 --> 02:00:23.740
and on close. And, you know, if if it's a multitude of transactions, you know, 10, 25, 50 transactions,
1670
02:00:24.395 --> 02:00:25.934
saving so much money. So,
1671
02:00:26.554 --> 02:00:33.855
Yeah. I definitely think a lot of the private channels are not gonna be just users, trying to, you know, use Lightning more privately.
1672
02:00:34.320 --> 02:00:39.220
But, actually, there's big enterprises that wanna have these liquidity channels with their partners,
1673
02:00:40.400 --> 02:00:44.645
but they don't want people to just be using them willy nilly. Or, you know,
1674
02:00:45.025 --> 02:00:46.405
alternatively, they can just
1675
02:00:46.785 --> 02:00:51.364
broadcast higher fees so people don't use them. Like, maybe it's economically feasible
1676
02:00:52.150 --> 02:01:07.835
for other people to be using those channels as well as they're willing to pay the routing fee on it. But I think in a lot of cases, people will just wanna, like, not even disclose that relationship to the rest of the world and be like, okay. Our tree animal between each other each other, or it's just gonna stay private.
1677
02:01:08.620 --> 02:01:10.239
So I think that's a great point.
1678
02:01:11.020 --> 02:01:18.365
Yeah. I mean, if if you look at, like, the node behind, like, Moon Wallet, for example, right, or, like, Blue Wallet and things like that. You know, these are nodes which are not huge.
1679
02:01:18.845 --> 02:01:21.825
But but, I mean, their public capacity is, like,
1680
02:01:22.205 --> 02:01:32.440
what like, even some of them, like, lower than, like, lower than a Bitcoin. You know? It's, like, 1a half maybe. But, you know, you can imagine that they have, like, 10,000 users. Right? So,
1681
02:01:33.700 --> 02:01:35.400
there must be a lot of
1682
02:01:36.335 --> 02:01:37.474
liquidity behind
1683
02:01:37.855 --> 02:01:38.594
that, which
1684
02:01:38.895 --> 02:01:41.235
makes it, you know, possible to
1685
02:01:41.614 --> 02:01:42.514
work and not,
1686
02:01:42.974 --> 02:01:45.315
you know, not cause payment failures
1687
02:01:45.920 --> 02:01:50.100
when they, you know, people start to withdraw money or they try to try to,
1688
02:01:50.560 --> 02:01:53.620
you know, pay things en masse suddenly.
1689
02:01:54.844 --> 02:01:58.465
So it would be very surprising to me if that would be the true kind of,
1690
02:01:59.324 --> 02:02:04.980
capacity which they have have on there. And and those are just, you know, a couple I've I've was able to spot.
1691
02:02:06.159 --> 02:02:11.860
And there are a lot of things like, you know, the loads of strike, for example, I I think they are not even known to me.
1692
02:02:13.415 --> 02:02:14.955
So there's plenty of that.
1693
02:02:20.810 --> 02:02:22.430
So, yeah, that network
1694
02:02:23.130 --> 02:02:23.790
is growing.
1695
02:02:24.570 --> 02:02:28.030
It's exciting stuff. We're definitely going the right direction. So,
1696
02:02:28.565 --> 02:02:32.505
like, excited to see more and more of you guys out on there, opening up channels,
1697
02:02:33.045 --> 02:02:35.065
using it. I know in Miami,
1698
02:02:36.325 --> 02:02:42.300
a good chunk of the transactions I saw with people transacting on lightning instead of on chain.
1699
02:02:43.160 --> 02:02:46.780
Hopefully, next year, all the vendors are accepting it. That would be a nice touch.
1700
02:02:47.275 --> 02:02:55.295
And, yeah, it's it's just gonna continue to to grow. I mean, now we've got a whole bunch more awesome user friendly solutions even for noobs
1701
02:02:55.730 --> 02:02:58.790
in the form of stuff like Moon and and Breeze.
1702
02:02:59.250 --> 02:03:00.550
You know, while the satoshi
1703
02:03:00.930 --> 02:03:05.045
and blue olive have been really big, custodial solutions. But now we have,
1704
02:03:06.005 --> 02:03:10.025
some solutions that are, you know, only somewhat custodial in
1705
02:03:10.645 --> 02:03:12.585
how they do their channel opens. And,
1706
02:03:12.940 --> 02:03:17.119
you know, in the next year, we're gonna see some stuff like Rust Lightning and that LDK
1707
02:03:17.420 --> 02:03:18.960
use way, way more.
1708
02:03:19.420 --> 02:03:27.025
And people are gonna take, channel management into their own hands too. Just a matter of liquidity services coming up, education.
1709
02:03:28.285 --> 02:03:30.305
There's, like, a whole bunch of new UX
1710
02:03:30.880 --> 02:03:34.500
to the lightning network that, you know, a typical Bitcoin user
1711
02:03:35.360 --> 02:03:37.219
might not have been familiar with. So
1712
02:03:37.760 --> 02:03:38.659
a lot of challenges,
1713
02:03:39.304 --> 02:03:41.405
but glad to see them being addressed.
1714
02:03:41.705 --> 02:03:43.085
It's really awesome to see.
1715
02:03:43.784 --> 02:03:47.080
Just based on what we got, like, 1700
1716
02:03:47.540 --> 02:03:53.320
bitcoin. I was talking to Lightning Labs the other day or talking to Ryan Jen Gentry about,
1717
02:03:54.265 --> 02:03:58.445
kind of their, their predictions for how the lightning network will grow.
1718
02:03:59.225 --> 02:04:02.580
Just based on what we got, like, 1700
1719
02:04:02.960 --> 02:04:06.340
Bitcoin on the public lightning network capacity.
1720
02:04:07.520 --> 02:04:10.340
So if, if 10% of the transactions
1721
02:04:10.800 --> 02:04:11.300
on
1722
02:04:11.685 --> 02:04:12.825
main block,
1723
02:04:15.045 --> 02:04:18.905
what type of growth would be effective for the lightning network
1724
02:04:19.525 --> 02:04:20.345
as a whole?
1725
02:04:22.630 --> 02:04:27.690
And the the number that he threw out was about a 100 x growth for, the Lightning Network.
1726
02:04:28.315 --> 02:04:32.015
So but I haven't, gotten to verify that myself.
1727
02:04:33.035 --> 02:04:38.199
Yeah. So then at that point, the real challenge is I think, lying, like, routing. Like,
1728
02:04:38.739 --> 02:04:41.880
how do you route when there's so many damn hops? And
1729
02:04:42.580 --> 02:04:45.655
are there services that that take over that route calculation?
1730
02:04:47.235 --> 02:04:55.980
What exactly happens there? So it's gonna be interesting to see what scaling problems arise at that point. But Just shy of he has something like a 100 x growth.
1731
02:04:56.700 --> 02:04:57.920
That would be unbelievable.
1732
02:04:58.940 --> 02:05:03.925
And hell, like, we're we're at really low capacity now. Does anyone have offhand have the
1733
02:05:04.705 --> 02:05:07.364
public capacity of the Lightning Network right now? It's
1734
02:05:08.705 --> 02:05:09.505
I'm gonna go to
1735
02:05:10.760 --> 02:05:11.980
oh, sorry. Go ahead.
1736
02:05:12.520 --> 02:05:15.340
I was gonna go to Clark Moody's dashboard. Shouts to Clark.
1737
02:05:15.800 --> 02:05:16.280
Great bit
1738
02:05:17.375 --> 02:05:22.835
I was just checking it. It's just shy of 1700 Bitcoin on the public lightning network.
1739
02:05:26.290 --> 02:05:28.070
I see. I see.
1740
02:05:29.170 --> 02:05:30.450
Yeah. That's only, like
1741
02:05:31.170 --> 02:05:36.435
well, I mean, our price has just created the last 2 months. But, yeah, that's just, 52,000,000.
1742
02:05:36.895 --> 02:05:37.715
Right? Damn.
1743
02:05:40.495 --> 02:05:42.590
Wow. Yeah. Those are rookie numbers.
1744
02:05:43.150 --> 02:05:46.449
Well, let's pump those up. Let's let's get a cool, 5,000,000,000
1745
02:05:46.750 --> 02:05:47.329
on there,
1746
02:05:48.190 --> 02:05:48.690
and
1747
02:05:49.815 --> 02:05:51.034
we'll talk from there.
1748
02:05:51.574 --> 02:05:52.554
You first, dude.
1749
02:05:55.655 --> 02:05:58.215
I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm, you know, I'm I'm gonna
1750
02:05:59.420 --> 02:06:05.740
we're getting pretty close over at Kraken. So now I'm getting to the stage where it's like, okay. Let's let's put some real money on this. So,
1751
02:06:06.715 --> 02:06:09.375
I'm not sure Jesse will say, okay. Here's 5,000,000,000.
1752
02:06:10.315 --> 02:06:15.455
But, you know, if we if we could pump up those those numbers in the right direction, that would be nice.
1753
02:06:21.300 --> 02:06:21.880
Oh, man.
1754
02:06:23.625 --> 02:06:27.005
Guys, honestly, I'm I'm getting beat. It's been a good 2 hours.
1755
02:06:27.545 --> 02:06:31.485
If we bring up anyone else who might have a question real quick and
1756
02:06:32.440 --> 02:06:35.179
we call this our apps in the next 10 or 15 minutes.
1757
02:06:42.205 --> 02:06:42.705
Alright.
1758
02:06:43.244 --> 02:06:48.145
Let's do it. So anyone else, in the room who wants to come up, ask question to anyone,
1759
02:06:48.685 --> 02:06:52.040
feel free. You could send a request over here on spaces.
1760
02:06:54.020 --> 02:06:56.040
If not, then I'm just gonna probably
1761
02:06:56.500 --> 02:06:59.080
have, my buddy, Ty Kawamoto come up and
1762
02:06:59.940 --> 02:07:00.440
tell
1763
02:07:00.875 --> 02:07:02.795
the story with me about how,
1764
02:07:03.755 --> 02:07:06.094
we were dealing with a bonds broker this weekend,
1765
02:07:08.074 --> 02:07:09.535
at our buddy Zach's house.
1766
02:07:10.320 --> 02:07:12.019
It was pretty much 7v1.
1767
02:07:13.280 --> 02:07:14.900
This guy who was a bond broker
1768
02:07:15.440 --> 02:07:16.739
versus, like, pretty
1769
02:07:17.199 --> 02:07:18.099
pretty hardcore
1770
02:07:19.265 --> 02:07:20.645
Bitcoin or 7 of us.
1771
02:07:21.105 --> 02:07:21.505
And,
1772
02:07:21.985 --> 02:07:23.605
yeah, it was it was a bloodbath.
1773
02:07:24.784 --> 02:07:29.600
It was mainly my fault because I was just hammered. I was just off my gourd,
1774
02:07:30.460 --> 02:07:32.320
and I ended up yelling at the guy.
1775
02:07:33.820 --> 02:07:34.320
But
1776
02:07:36.140 --> 02:07:38.155
we we were never gonna flip this guy anyway.
1777
02:07:39.175 --> 02:07:42.795
Hi. Ty, come on. Come up, buddy, for one sec. Come come say hi.
1778
02:07:43.175 --> 02:07:48.120
You know, the freaks loved your dispatch appearance, and and they want as much of you as they could get.
1779
02:07:54.025 --> 02:07:58.765
Ty, come on. It's peer pressure. 3 hours. There we go. What's up, Ty?
1780
02:08:02.400 --> 02:08:10.420
Yeah. That was a crazy weekend, man. I was, we were off on camera. But, yeah, it was kinda crazy because, like, we were, like, what? Like, 3 hours
1781
02:08:10.735 --> 02:08:11.554
into drinking.
1782
02:08:12.175 --> 02:08:15.315
Was that before or after we had all those shots?
1783
02:08:16.974 --> 02:08:17.670
No. No.
1784
02:08:18.230 --> 02:08:32.445
I was just like, oh, man. That was just like a train wreck. We got the shots after. I'm like, okay, guys. I hate the train wreck. We drank so much that the timeline got Yeah. The timeline got a little bit messed up. Yeah. No. He he was like a legit dollar maxi,
1785
02:08:33.385 --> 02:08:39.870
to the point where, like, he was I think at one point, he was, like, defending the military industrial complex, like the petrothalvin.
1786
02:08:40.410 --> 02:08:44.685
He's like, this you you know, the the dollar system is supported
1787
02:08:45.145 --> 02:08:51.085
by, our, our military our glorious military or something like that. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me?
1788
02:08:51.460 --> 02:08:54.680
Like, did that really happen, or am I just making that up?
1789
02:08:55.220 --> 02:09:06.885
Yeah. And he got really defensive about it. You're you were you said in jest, you're like, oh, what a noble cause. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, I didn't say noble. I didn't say noble. This guy's putting words in my mouth. He was, like, jumping from, like, 1 to a 100. Yeah.
1790
02:09:07.665 --> 02:09:08.165
But,
1791
02:09:09.300 --> 02:09:13.560
yeah, it was just the wrong room for a bond broker to to walk into.
1792
02:09:14.660 --> 02:09:17.720
You know, it was a it was a really good crew of us. So we had Pedro,
1793
02:09:18.105 --> 02:09:23.165
the real Pedro, I will say, not the fake Pedro. Not McCormick, Pedro. Like, Pedro, Pedro.
1794
02:09:24.185 --> 02:09:27.165
Yeah. We had a man. We had, the business guy is there.
1795
02:09:27.690 --> 02:09:29.950
Wiz, Steve, and Simon were there.
1796
02:09:30.730 --> 02:09:31.230
Obviously,
1797
02:09:31.530 --> 02:09:34.990
you. Yep. Who else was there? It's a good crew
1798
02:09:35.475 --> 02:09:37.795
in that room. I mean, obviously, like, Zach and
1799
02:09:38.195 --> 02:09:44.375
And and uncle uncle uncle Zach was in there for a bit. Oh, uncle Zach. He's in the room then. Yeah. He's, he's great.
1800
02:09:46.260 --> 02:09:48.360
Yeah. It was just it was just ridiculous.
1801
02:09:49.620 --> 02:09:50.120
But,
1802
02:09:50.740 --> 02:09:59.340
you know, despite that, you know, we we definitely didn't flip the guy. No. But he did make make an interesting comment that I I thought was really funny. Like,
1803
02:09:59.820 --> 02:10:04.159
despite our our difference on the views of, like, bonds and dollars and Bitcoin,
1804
02:10:04.940 --> 02:10:11.015
and despite the fact that he thought that Bitcoin had the potential to destroy the planet and the environment,
1805
02:10:11.715 --> 02:10:14.935
he still despite that, he still thought
1806
02:10:15.530 --> 02:10:17.550
it was a good idea to allocate
1807
02:10:18.170 --> 02:10:19.869
up to 5% of your portfolio
1808
02:10:20.409 --> 02:10:26.895
in Bitcoin. And when I hear stories like that, with people who are so entrenched in the fiat monetary system,
1809
02:10:27.195 --> 02:10:35.090
I know that we're winning and I it gives me so much hope. Oh my god. I just wanted to share that I wanted to share that story with everyone. I I thought it was hilarious
1810
02:10:35.470 --> 02:10:38.930
despite me sort of just being a drunken mess with this guy.
1811
02:10:39.390 --> 02:10:40.370
It just really
1812
02:10:41.025 --> 02:10:45.845
was a great illustration of the strides that are being made despite us
1813
02:10:46.385 --> 02:10:49.445
losing 50% of our value in 2 moms,
1814
02:10:49.800 --> 02:10:58.460
despite all the things that are going on and the affinity schemes and all the shit coin are still going on. Like, we're making strides in the right direction,
1815
02:11:00.014 --> 02:11:01.875
that are ultimately gonna change
1816
02:11:02.335 --> 02:11:08.989
the course of humanity and and the world. It's incredible. Oh, great. 100%. Yeah. That was, that was such a bullish conversation. He
1817
02:11:09.370 --> 02:11:11.370
was he was, like, a dollar maxi. Like,
1818
02:11:12.090 --> 02:11:15.870
I I've I've never seen anybody like that. Like, maybe, like, Joe Weisenbaum,
1819
02:11:16.409 --> 02:11:16.909
like,
1820
02:11:18.535 --> 02:11:27.560
level. Maybe even, like, you can burst. But Yeah. Man, I mean and and still he says 5% allocation. So how bullish is that?
1821
02:11:29.620 --> 02:11:33.240
Yeah. It was unbelievable. That was definitely one of the highlights of the night.
1822
02:11:34.285 --> 02:11:37.405
Yeah. And then then from there, we proceeded to get really drunk.
1823
02:11:37.965 --> 02:11:48.400
We went out to 2 bars. It was great hanging with y'all. I love you. That was fun. Yeah. I see Zach there. Thanks, Zach. It was a good time as usual, and, can't wait to do that again.
1824
02:11:51.164 --> 02:11:51.664
Absolutely.
1825
02:11:52.605 --> 02:12:09.085
Alright. So, I don't think we're topping that. So on that note, I got we we gotta call it here. I wanna thank everyone who, got it. Oh, actually, hold up. We got we got John's in. We'll get John's in real quick because I love John's. He's a great contributor to the community. He's been helping out some on the Zeus redesign.
1826
02:12:09.465 --> 02:12:10.445
What's up, John's?
1827
02:12:10.905 --> 02:12:19.080
Anything you wanna add? Oh, well, if you're gonna end it on that, I think might as well do that because it was a Josh. Yeah. Can you hear me?
1828
02:12:20.260 --> 02:12:20.760
Yeah.
1829
02:12:21.140 --> 02:12:30.725
John, just just shouts to you, man. Thanks for hopping on the stage. Next time we do one of these rips, you gotta come on, and then we gotta rip more. Definitely. Maybe maybe on lightning Friday,
1830
02:12:31.185 --> 02:12:36.290
I think we're gonna do, Chaz, what time are we doing on Fridays? We do 4 PM? Yeah. 4 PM EST.
1831
02:12:37.550 --> 02:12:50.905
4 PM EST. Back on Twitter spaces, we'll be at it. Hopefully, Citadel dispatch is back on its, normal programming next week. This has been fun, but I'm sure I wanna do it every week despite me be doing so many episodes.
1832
02:12:52.130 --> 02:12:54.870
Yeah. This has been awesome. Thank you all. Thanks to Jessica
1833
02:12:55.890 --> 02:12:56.710
and for recording.
1834
02:12:57.489 --> 02:12:59.429
Thanks for Chaz for asking great questions.
1835
02:13:00.265 --> 02:13:04.365
OpenNoms for telling us all about the joint market and his efforts there.
1836
02:13:05.225 --> 02:13:07.645
Ty for the story. Rodolfo for
1837
02:13:08.179 --> 02:13:10.520
all his insights about Canada and,
1838
02:13:11.380 --> 02:13:19.574
CoinKite and all that stuff. And, of course, everyone tuning in and supporting and listening, the freaks that are huddling, the freaks that are building.
1839
02:13:19.955 --> 02:13:21.175
I appreciate y'all.
1840
02:13:22.675 --> 02:13:23.975
And, on that note,
1841
02:13:24.355 --> 02:13:27.850
I call it here and and do my little intro outro music. So,
1842
02:13:29.190 --> 02:13:30.010
cheers, freaks.
1843
02:13:33.590 --> 02:13:35.290
Thanks. Thanks, all. Bye bye.
1844
02:13:36.265 --> 02:13:38.045
And a world governing body
1845
02:13:38.585 --> 02:13:41.005
will be created to enforce them.
1846
02:13:41.945 --> 02:13:42.445
Crises
1847
02:13:43.065 --> 02:13:43.565
precipitate
1848
02:13:44.850 --> 02:13:45.350
change.
1849
02:17:02.870 --> 02:17:05.785
I wanna divide the virus to bring dire
1850
02:17:48.511 --> 02:17:50.131
That's it for this week, freaks,
1851
02:17:50.990 --> 02:17:51.490
junkies,
1852
02:17:53.975 --> 02:17:54.715
all y'all.
1853
02:17:55.335 --> 02:17:56.955
Love you. Have a good one.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:10:20 PM
Duration: 8293.59
Channels: 1
1
00:00:34.650 --> 00:00:35.150
2
00:00:37.770 --> 00:00:38.830
What's up, freaks?
3
00:00:43.125 --> 00:00:44.585
4
00:00:50.210 --> 00:00:52.390
Damn. I thought I had a quirk pop.
5
00:00:52.930 --> 00:00:56.575
It's a screw off right here. It's a Yamazaki single malt.
6
00:00:58.735 --> 00:00:59.395
It's okay.
7
00:00:59.775 --> 00:01:01.635
This is Evan Kaludis with y'all.
8
00:01:02.255 --> 00:01:02.995
Bring you
9
00:01:03.935 --> 00:01:04.675
the officially
10
00:01:05.055 --> 00:01:05.555
unofficial
11
00:01:06.750 --> 00:01:07.970
sanctioned but unsanctioned.
12
00:01:09.230 --> 00:01:10.290
Sydel Dispatch.
13
00:01:12.190 --> 00:01:13.810
The show about actionable
14
00:01:14.235 --> 00:01:16.335
Bitcoin discussion. This is episode 26
15
00:01:16.955 --> 00:01:17.855
with an asterisk.
16
00:01:19.035 --> 00:01:22.030
Say it's an asterisk because we're making some changes around here.
17
00:01:23.549 --> 00:01:24.450
Maybe wondering.
18
00:01:24.830 --> 00:01:27.090
I've got some pretty good options. Where's Matt O'Dell?
19
00:01:28.190 --> 00:01:29.729
Where's that guy? I miss him.
20
00:01:30.805 --> 00:01:30.965
And,
21
00:01:32.965 --> 00:01:36.425
to be truthful, I don't know. That's got some pretty good OPSEC.
22
00:01:38.100 --> 00:01:40.280
You know, he may have been detained at a border
23
00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:47.240
or who knows what. Just trying to save face. Violating money transmitter laws, stirring dissent, maybe.
24
00:01:47.985 --> 00:01:51.525
Or he might just actually be on vacation like you said, or
25
00:01:52.305 --> 00:01:54.245
he's trying to save face. I don't know.
26
00:01:55.170 --> 00:01:59.990
But I'm pretty sure he did not defect to Monero like we all suspected he would,
27
00:02:00.850 --> 00:02:01.750
by this point.
28
00:02:03.744 --> 00:02:04.484
But, anyway,
29
00:02:05.505 --> 00:02:12.130
really excited to chat with y'all today. I just had an itch to just chat with all the freaks on this Bitcoin Tuesday in lieu
30
00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:15.670
of an actual episode. So really happy to talk with y'all,
31
00:02:17.090 --> 00:02:19.510
in this sort of new format. Right?
32
00:02:20.585 --> 00:02:23.005
I wanna give a shout out to start off to Jessica.
33
00:02:23.945 --> 00:02:25.645
He's in here, I hope,
34
00:02:26.025 --> 00:02:27.085
recording the session.
35
00:02:27.785 --> 00:02:29.565
Hopefully, we could get it out on
36
00:02:29.930 --> 00:02:31.870
the traditional dispatch mediums.
37
00:02:32.330 --> 00:02:34.830
Jessica runs an awesome website called Ambose.
38
00:02:35.850 --> 00:02:38.270
It's a lightning graph explorer.
39
00:02:39.535 --> 00:02:42.195
They've got some great visuals. He's working with Tony from,
40
00:02:42.655 --> 00:02:46.195
ThunderHub on that. So go check it out if you get a chance. That's amboss.space
41
00:02:47.380 --> 00:02:47.880
ambossspace.
42
00:02:50.260 --> 00:02:53.320
And, yeah, I also gotta give a shout out to our new sponsors
43
00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:55.800
making some other changes on the show.
44
00:02:57.585 --> 00:03:02.085
We're introducing mid roll ads, so, you know, stay tuned for the mid roll advertisements.
45
00:03:03.185 --> 00:03:04.885
I've got some pretty good sponsors.
46
00:03:06.409 --> 00:03:08.750
Bisc, of course, you know, everyone loves Bisc.
47
00:03:09.689 --> 00:03:11.790
You know, great decentralized trade platform.
48
00:03:12.170 --> 00:03:15.230
We also got some gems of partners in BlockFi,
49
00:03:16.125 --> 00:03:16.625
JPMorgan,
50
00:03:17.405 --> 00:03:20.045
DHS. So listen to their ad roll reads,
51
00:03:20.685 --> 00:03:22.625
middle of the show, so that should be fun.
52
00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:26.800
And, Yeah. This is gonna be a much different dispatch than usual.
53
00:03:27.340 --> 00:03:32.959
As you guys obviously know, we're on Twitter Spaces today, so we're gonna have a bunch of guests on, probably rotating in and out.
54
00:03:33.885 --> 00:03:36.225
I put in a lot of invites out today. So
55
00:03:37.005 --> 00:03:38.065
I invited Rodolfo.
56
00:03:38.605 --> 00:03:40.225
I invited Open Arms,
57
00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:42.400
Kai Kawamoto,
58
00:03:43.580 --> 00:03:46.720
invited Pedro, the real Pedro, not phony Pedro,
59
00:03:47.820 --> 00:03:48.640
Jack Dorsey.
60
00:03:49.105 --> 00:03:55.925
Doubt he'll jump in, but who knows? And, Klaus Schwab from the World Economic Forum. I know he's a fan of the show. He might pop in.
61
00:03:56.440 --> 00:04:00.860
But, anyway, there's no fixed topic for today, so we're gonna just see where the guests
62
00:04:01.720 --> 00:04:04.860
want to up and take it. Just hoping we riff for about
63
00:04:05.365 --> 00:04:06.105
an hour,
64
00:04:06.645 --> 00:04:10.005
see what everyone's up to, and then we'll open it up to the larger audience,
65
00:04:10.645 --> 00:04:12.025
do some q and a or
66
00:04:12.565 --> 00:04:13.950
just see where things go.
67
00:04:14.510 --> 00:04:18.210
So, without further ado, let's bring on some guests to the stage.
68
00:04:18.910 --> 00:04:21.330
Start with Chaz. Chaz from Lightning Junky's.
69
00:04:21.870 --> 00:04:23.905
70
00:04:24.945 --> 00:04:28.005
71
00:04:28.545 --> 00:04:30.625
72
00:04:31.264 --> 00:04:33.770
One shit talking moment here for you.
73
00:04:34.729 --> 00:04:37.870
We we gotta get you a setup where you're not just playing music
74
00:04:38.410 --> 00:04:43.134
out loud and having your phone pick it up. It sounded I know it's awful. Right? But
75
00:04:43.675 --> 00:04:46.255
76
00:04:47.514 --> 00:04:49.514
No promises there. It sounds like
77
00:04:50.635 --> 00:04:52.300
great. This is fun.
78
00:04:53.340 --> 00:04:55.759
Yeah. No no visual component, unfortunately,
79
00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:58.560
on Twitter spaces. So we're gonna have to read off,
80
00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:05.005
you know, the prices and all our fun graphs that we usually have just over there.
81
00:05:05.785 --> 00:05:11.645
So, I'm sure everyone just noticing how, we've got a nice little dip going on today.
82
00:05:12.210 --> 00:05:16.390
Woke up, and I saw the price was at about, what, something like 29,000.
83
00:05:17.970 --> 00:05:20.815
So let's check-in on the prices to kick things off with.
84
00:05:22.415 --> 00:05:22.995
We've got
85
00:05:24.655 --> 00:05:27.555
this listing the index price at 32,496.
86
00:05:31.440 --> 00:05:31.940
And,
87
00:05:33.039 --> 00:05:34.659
let's see what the exchanges
88
00:05:34.960 --> 00:05:35.860
have it at.
89
00:05:39.675 --> 00:05:40.175
90
00:05:42.074 --> 00:05:44.974
91
00:05:45.835 --> 00:05:47.055
for Kraken is.
92
00:06:03.405 --> 00:06:05.185
We are at 32,448.
93
00:06:09.169 --> 00:06:10.870
So, yeah, nice little dip.
94
00:06:11.330 --> 00:06:16.629
I hope you guys were able to snag around 29 if you were, like to do that kind of trading.
95
00:06:17.169 --> 00:06:19.365
But, yeah, it's just been complete pandemonium
96
00:06:20.305 --> 00:06:21.445
as far as,
97
00:06:24.065 --> 00:06:27.525
you know, the normies' perceptions of things. People saying, oh, man.
98
00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:32.300
Price has gone and crashed 50% in the last 2 months. What are you guys doing over there?
99
00:06:33.479 --> 00:06:35.900
Yeah. It's just like moments like this in the cycle
100
00:06:36.535 --> 00:06:38.775
that really, really test how,
101
00:06:39.895 --> 00:06:42.635
you know, how determined you are, how dedicated
102
00:06:43.415 --> 00:06:46.050
your real will. And, I I think
103
00:06:46.510 --> 00:06:50.610
at times like this, we end up seeing some pretty crazy behavior by,
104
00:06:51.070 --> 00:06:52.530
you know, some otherwise,
105
00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:54.305
reputable people in
106
00:06:55.425 --> 00:06:57.285
space. Maybe they were over leveraged,
107
00:06:58.225 --> 00:06:59.205
lost some money.
108
00:07:00.705 --> 00:07:04.245
Now they start promoting some questionable products in the space.
109
00:07:05.890 --> 00:07:07.190
It's quite sad, actually.
110
00:07:07.490 --> 00:07:07.990
But,
111
00:07:08.770 --> 00:07:11.990
you know, at least we get to see who's in it for the technology.
112
00:07:14.195 --> 00:07:14.595
So,
113
00:07:15.395 --> 00:07:16.295
it's it's,
114
00:07:17.235 --> 00:07:26.050
always fun to go through these dips. But hey. I don't know about you guys, but I still think we're gonna crack an all time high again this year. So let's see how it pans out between,
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you know, previous cycles and where we've been,
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you know, the economic climate,
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with inflation,
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Joe Biden's
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prepping prepping another round of stimmy checks for
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for families in the United States.
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You know, Bitcoin is really our safe haven in in the midst of all this other uncertainty that's out in the world.
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So god bless it even if it does happen
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to tumble down 50%
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in the middle of a good old rally.
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isn't that relevant. It's probably the the boringest thing going on right now.
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I think all the things happening on on lightning are far more interesting than worrying about number go up, down, sideways, wherever. It doesn't I don't it hasn't really changed much for me.
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you're you're trying to sell, which I know bunch of us here are just hanging on for dear life. I see a bunch of hodlers in the chat down here. So,
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yeah. I mean, the fundamentals of Bitcoin haven't changed. If anything, they've gotten stronger.
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I mean, we've got 2
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humongous pieces of news that have come out this past month. Right?
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We've got Taproot activated, which means we're gonna have,
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act well, it's got it's locked in, and it's gonna be activated in November. But, you know, it's it's guaranteed now.
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And, you know, we also have small nation states
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adopting it and passing legal tender laws for it. So
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big picture. How can you be bearish?
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So, we we also have, Rodolfo. Rodolfo joined us. Really happy to see how you're doing today at BK.
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I, I kinda got the times twisted.
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We we missed you in Miami.
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in the Canada,
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gulag,
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but
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but I'm north and remote.
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So, like, COVID,
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idiocity doesn't exist here.
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It's great.
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Ben Sessions. He was talking about having to, like, quarantine or whatever. West is and the west is a bit better.
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Like, you have to quarantine for 2 weeks in in, like, at home,
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but you might have to do a hotel thing when you come in. It's like a bunch of bullshit.
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Yeah. Hopefully, things liberalize, but, yeah. Who knows in this crazy mixed up world?
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You know?
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The control freaks, they're everywhere.
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You really can't avoid them. Yeah. That's right.
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Yeah. Saw that video today that was going around on Bitcoin Twitter with,
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the guy proposing
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we, do bioengineering
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to make people
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people who think like that don't reproduce.
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So,
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like, just time takes care of it.
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Yeah. That's the one upside.
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You know, there where's that other guy that's a big critic of BTC on Twitter? He's like There is a tick. There is a tick disease that makes you allergic to red meat. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about is, like, the the womb star tick or something. Yeah. What a piece of shit.
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Yeah. So.
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Oh, man.
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So we also had, open arms. I I said he got an invite. Looks like he He just showed up.
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I think he had some connection problems. So Oh, okay. So I think that's the reason Jack Dorsey is not coming today because he would get an earful about me complaining about how spaces doesn't work and crashes your phone. You can't connect.
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But, you know, it it just otherwise makes for a pretty awesome experience, all things considered. I know a lot of people are going pretty hard on, Clubhouse this, this year.
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So Taproot is not guaranteed yet
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at all
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until the miners start actually mining blocks and enforcing Taproot in, like,
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very reasonable amounts of hash rate,
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it's still sort of, like
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you know, there's a very good chance
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that they come through, the promise,
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but
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speedy trial has no teeth. Right?
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Don't don't trust her. So, you're expecting some shenanigans to come up this year? No. No. Not really. I mean but, you know, it's rough consensus. Right? Don't don't trust, verify. So until I see
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mind blocks
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over, say, 80 to 90% of the hash rate,
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I wouldn't put any money on it.
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So we got that going for us at least.
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Now what would you say to users that are like, no way, man. I upgraded my node to 0 point
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21.1
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or whatever,
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and, my my node is validating,
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it's it doesn't matter
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as much as you think it does because
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the enforcing
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of soft forks,
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like, they they really
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lock in,
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with, with,
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lock in,
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with, with,
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lot true, that would have been different.
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But,
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yeah.
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So, like, it's it's pretty like, it it's looking good, but, like, I I'll just, like, sort of, like, caution people that, like because of the nature of how Bitcoin consensus work and
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and also the the, like,
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the game theory on on, like, all these actors,
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you know, nothing is guaranteed until it's in the blocks. Right?
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So, yeah, I remain, cautiously optimistic.
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Let's see what will happen from here. But,
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yeah, I mean, there's plenty of rooms for shenanigans. Like,
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we really won't know for sure until
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it's November and and we have it. And Yeah. You know, the transactions are being processed.
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And,
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you know, we're we're using transactions
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that are using Taproot. So, I guess not even implementations
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the address type had been settled upon, but there's still a lot of other things that are up in the air. So we'll see how it shakes out. I I I can't I I've been sort of, like, a bit distant for the last
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Are they gonna use a Segwit V2 addresses?
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Yes. It's it's gonna be interesting to see as the different wallets
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and exchanges.
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I'll try to make sense of it.
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And, you know, ultimately, adoption depends on
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on them. I mean, look, this year, we just saw Segwit get adopted by,
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like, Blockchain.com
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after, what, 4 years.
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So,
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addresses yet? BIP 32?
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blockchain.com,
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my friend. You know you know there's a couple better wallets out on the market now. So, you know, I haven't had Really?
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There are a few. I mean,
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you know, that that space has definitely made some strides at least.
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So, Rodolfo, I got a question from a freak in my DMs.
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Have you heard of any Canadian Internet news today, something about some sort of censorship bill being passed? Oh, yeah. The the
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he,
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he he he shoved through this bill,
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and, of course, the the commie,
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slash union party voted with them and so did the greens.
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So
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they, it it's essentially now
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well, once it's made it into law and stuff,
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they will be able to
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censor
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private accounts where they couldn't before.
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Right?
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Yeah. And they're they're saying that it's only for, like, big accounts and things like that that are acting as if they're news networks and stuff. It's all bullshit. Right? It's saying Like, on social media?
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Yeah. Yeah. So they are gonna have the powers to, like, censor my Twitter if they wanted to.
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out. He's off on the cash flow jokes,
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Right.
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fun that they're trying to do something stupid like this, you know, because
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censoring the Internet always works. Right?
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Let's see how things shake up. But, you know, we got this big problem of centralization on these big platforms,
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you know, just like the one we're talking on right now.
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That's it. If Dorsey or one of his shareholders doesn't like something we're saying, like, Bitcoin Tuesday is not existing on Twitter Spaces anymore. So I mean, come on. Give the guy a little bit more cred. But,
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like, private platforms are entitled to run it however they want. Right? I'm I'm Oh, yes. Certainly. Deliver that.
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context, they have they're subject to so much pressure, not only just from their shareholders, but from other parties and governments. It's it's really a shit show, and that's why it's important to have, like, these decentralized platforms. Like, you ran Bitcoin Hackers on, Yeah.
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On Mastodon, which is a federated network. Really cool. And, it's also why we champion stuff like Blue Sky that they're trying to work on that Twitter, make it decentralized. I think they're making, like, an honest effort at that. What what sucks in networks social networks is they're, like
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the people who are not part of your in group
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partaking in conversations. Right? So, like, you know, dunking on Rubini. Right? He's not gonna come up with the hackers.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, it it's hard to, like
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the public square needs to be public. Right? And you and you want everybody else in it too even if you don't like them.
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So it it's not an easy problem to solve. It's not just the technology itself. It's like the the social sort of connections there.
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decentralized, but then it's another to, a, make it usable. I mean, I bet we could both speak to our challenges building Bitcoin products. Right? But also having a community come to it, and that'd be like
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the,
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the
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town square where people have their discussions. So,
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there yeah. There's a lot of challenges. Even you nail it technologically,
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the UX and the social angles are are immensely difficult problems. So Yeah. We're down there. Right? Like,
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like,
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as it seems to, they want censorship. Right? They want
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a lot of moderation control. They want all this crap. Like, governments in a way are
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I I can't remember who said it, but, like, you know, most people don't want freedom. They just want a better sell. Right?
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So while while we still have you here, Rodolfo,
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any updates on
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Canadian
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vaccine passports?
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They're they're not gonna do, like,
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like, an official passport per se.
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But so far, as I understand, is that they created an app
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that, like,
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if you want to to travel without restrictions, you have to upload your your vaccine receipt, essentially. Right?
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Gotcha. And and then you don't have to quarantine. You don't have to do this. You don't have to do that. Right?
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But,
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and I also think that countries
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where Canada,
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can sort of swing their dick around, they would just say you can't, like, get visas to come to Canada without vaccine. But then countries like that Canada is on the the weak side, right, they will totally sort of let them through without vaccines. They're just gonna have to probably quarantine.
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So they're just gonna try to, like, through attrition, make most people vaccinate. It's
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funny that Canada doesn't have enough vaccines
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to do it.
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So it's kind of like
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a a tricky one for them to to to sort it out.
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do I have to I have to show proof of vaccination, and do I have to quarantine?
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Say I'm coming from,
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from New York. So US.
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yeah, you should be able to come because I think they opened the borders already.
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But
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if you don't want to quarantine,
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with
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partner countries or whatever the fuck, if you show your vaccine
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stamps,
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you don't have to quarantine. But then
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if you don't have
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vaccine or or stamps or whatever,
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then you do have to quarantine.
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I think they're they're getting rid of the gulag soon, which was some
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rented hotels that were, like, absolute,
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like, shit,
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where people had to go for 2, 3 days and do 50 tests or whatever.
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And now I think what's gonna happen is if you're a Canadian
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resident, when you come back and you don't have vaccines, you have to stay home for 2 weeks.
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let you know when I'm in that neck of the woods.
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You know, I also bumped into that tikinis guy. I forget his name. He's in Miami.
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Every every time I saw him, I saw him bumped into him, like, 3 or 4 times. I'm like, oh, man. I gotta go to Canada and get some of this food.
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So, yeah. I'll let you know, my friend, when I make it up there. May maybe you take me hunting and you're part of the wilderness.
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what's your what's your current status on lightning network hardware, man?
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has some inherent
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issues around hardware
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because
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Lightning requires statefulness.
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Right?
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Like chain state.
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So it's very hard to make air gap
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solutions
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state.
362
00:23:45.870 --> 00:23:46.370
Right?
363
00:23:46.990 --> 00:23:47.310
So,
364
00:23:48.030 --> 00:23:56.075
so it it's just like so it starts from that premise. Right? Okay. Fine. So you can connect the code card to the computer and use it via USB.
365
00:23:57.895 --> 00:23:58.395
I
366
00:23:58.890 --> 00:24:04.110
I was under the impression that some people have open and closed channels using Electrum,
367
00:24:06.410 --> 00:24:08.510
with a cold card as the signer.
368
00:24:08.915 --> 00:24:10.215
I haven't tried it myself,
369
00:24:11.555 --> 00:24:13.095
but I would start there.
370
00:24:14.115 --> 00:24:14.855
And then
371
00:24:16.450 --> 00:24:18.230
if somebody can make
372
00:24:18.610 --> 00:24:19.670
a PSBT,
373
00:24:22.690 --> 00:24:23.590
sort of glue
374
00:24:24.485 --> 00:24:24.985
program
375
00:24:25.365 --> 00:24:26.345
or or
376
00:24:26.885 --> 00:24:29.385
some, some PR on Electrum or whatever,
377
00:24:30.725 --> 00:24:32.585
we should be able to sign it.
378
00:24:33.100 --> 00:24:35.680
Right? The the biggest bottleneck is this.
379
00:24:36.060 --> 00:24:37.520
We don't do stuff
380
00:24:37.900 --> 00:24:39.120
that is not standard,
381
00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:43.495
period. If it's not a bit, we're not gonna probably support it,
382
00:24:44.755 --> 00:24:51.390
because we want things to be a bit more future proof. Right? We don't wanna create our own way of signing lightning or whatever.
383
00:24:51.770 --> 00:24:52.270
So
384
00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:53.790
we use PSBT
385
00:24:54.250 --> 00:24:59.035
as the sole way of getting stuff in and out of cold card for signature.
386
00:24:59.495 --> 00:25:00.395
So if somebody
387
00:25:00.775 --> 00:25:01.275
makes
388
00:25:01.655 --> 00:25:03.674
a opening or closing channel,
389
00:25:04.760 --> 00:25:05.260
PSBT
390
00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:07.159
file for lack of,
391
00:25:08.120 --> 00:25:09.820
explanation here, Depas,
392
00:25:10.679 --> 00:25:11.159
let's,
393
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:13.179
that that should be signable
394
00:25:13.915 --> 00:25:18.655
because it is a standard Bitcoin transaction. Right? It's just multisync transaction.
395
00:25:21.399 --> 00:25:23.740
And then going forward, though,
396
00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:27.419
we do support Libsack. Right? So,
397
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.155
we are using the the Libsack, the k one. Right? So so the the the master of that,
398
00:25:33.695 --> 00:25:34.995
of that, Lib.
399
00:25:35.855 --> 00:25:36.595
And then,
400
00:25:37.990 --> 00:25:41.370
we just we're just too swamped to to to mess around,
401
00:25:42.310 --> 00:25:45.850
but, people interested in messing around, they could try to load
402
00:25:46.545 --> 00:25:47.585
the the z,
403
00:25:47.985 --> 00:25:50.565
the z k one, which is the experimental
404
00:25:51.025 --> 00:25:51.525
Libsack,
405
00:25:52.225 --> 00:25:53.925
and that one can do
406
00:25:54.600 --> 00:26:04.845
all the things that people want to do with the coming features. Right? So all the top of it stuff, all the snore stuff, and all all those things. Sweet.
407
00:26:06.184 --> 00:26:08.605
But, again, it it needs to be PSBT
408
00:26:09.145 --> 00:26:09.645
route.
409
00:26:11.065 --> 00:26:12.605
410
00:26:12.909 --> 00:26:20.529
you know, more lightning stuff as time goes on just by, like, a byproduct of, you know, things improving and things like that?
411
00:26:23.505 --> 00:26:24.005
412
00:26:24.385 --> 00:26:27.125
and I mean so I I like,
413
00:26:27.585 --> 00:26:29.605
Lightning is super cool. Right?
414
00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:31.529
I think,
415
00:26:32.149 --> 00:26:34.169
personally, the future of Lightning,
416
00:26:34.789 --> 00:26:36.409
especially because of its inherent,
417
00:26:38.070 --> 00:26:38.570
statefulness
418
00:26:39.110 --> 00:26:39.610
and
419
00:26:40.014 --> 00:26:40.514
lower
420
00:26:40.815 --> 00:26:41.315
amount,
421
00:26:42.255 --> 00:26:44.674
actual value amount transaction ness,
422
00:26:46.495 --> 00:26:49.154
it's more of like a phone wallet fit
423
00:26:50.080 --> 00:26:53.300
or or a server sort of side fit. Right?
424
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.620
I think that's more where things will go.
425
00:26:57.925 --> 00:26:58.585
I think
426
00:26:59.605 --> 00:27:01.065
the large majority
427
00:27:01.365 --> 00:27:02.105
of lightning
428
00:27:02.565 --> 00:27:06.505
stuff for consumers will be custodial or semi custodial
429
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.740
because the aside from privacy considerations,
430
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:16.380
the risk of financial loss is much smaller. Right?
431
00:27:17.195 --> 00:27:17.695
The
432
00:27:18.395 --> 00:27:21.535
you don't have to be concerned about, like, losing $10.
433
00:27:22.315 --> 00:27:22.815
So
434
00:27:23.275 --> 00:27:24.415
if you have,
435
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:28.260
say, a year or 2 from now,
436
00:27:28.800 --> 00:27:29.300
say,
437
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:38.294
like, a a semi custodial lightning wallet on your phone solves some of the privacy considerations or or improves the privacy considerations,
438
00:27:39.075 --> 00:27:41.174
it's gonna be hard to compete with that,
439
00:27:41.635 --> 00:27:45.260
for the average consumer or even the more advanced consumer.
440
00:27:46.520 --> 00:27:47.660
Even I use,
441
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:50.860
custodial lightning wallets on the phone.
442
00:27:52.015 --> 00:27:56.595
I just like, it's just it's just too much. Like, there's a lot of stuff happening in Bitcoin.
443
00:27:58.175 --> 00:28:00.115
We focus more on large
444
00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:01.240
money
445
00:28:01.620 --> 00:28:02.840
being stored by,
446
00:28:03.620 --> 00:28:08.440
sort of self custody. Right? So people that wanna hold their own Bitcoin.
447
00:28:10.144 --> 00:28:12.725
How that fits into lightning, it's tricky
448
00:28:13.105 --> 00:28:16.965
because it's a whole other universe of of, like, things for you to develop,
449
00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:22.000
and we don't wanna spread ourselves too thin. We really wanna focus on securing your stats,
450
00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:27.565
and then you move your stats from, cold card into your lightning wallet, whatever that is.
451
00:28:28.105 --> 00:28:29.645
And and if Coldcard
452
00:28:30.024 --> 00:28:31.005
can sign,
453
00:28:32.825 --> 00:28:38.100
Lightning for closing and opening channels, especially on the server side with the CK bunker,
454
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.020
then then that's great.
455
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:43.385
But, like, doing cold card for consumers
456
00:28:43.765 --> 00:28:46.745
to sign, l n, I I just I don't see the point.
457
00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:57.545
458
00:28:57.845 --> 00:29:10.360
459
00:29:10.760 --> 00:29:13.100
yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi, Ivan, NVK,
460
00:29:13.865 --> 00:29:15.005
Charles, everyone.
461
00:29:15.625 --> 00:29:16.445
Just a fair
462
00:29:18.185 --> 00:29:19.165
I found this,
463
00:29:20.650 --> 00:29:29.855
obviously, the call card PSBD function. I think and and I just would like to point out that there is there's been a big improvement in the new LND release, the 0 13,
464
00:29:32.395 --> 00:29:35.455
which makes you able to import external Xbox
465
00:29:36.110 --> 00:29:39.970
into the orchard part of the l and d
466
00:29:40.590 --> 00:29:41.090
wallet,
467
00:29:42.030 --> 00:29:43.890
which could be a cold card. Right?
468
00:29:44.415 --> 00:29:45.075
So yeah.
469
00:29:45.615 --> 00:29:52.035
470
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.100
471
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:04.205
ideas about this already. And the the big thing is that it's it's used as a PSBD format, so it's not something new. Obviously, for, like, samurai,
472
00:30:05.065 --> 00:30:06.205
you would need to,
473
00:30:07.865 --> 00:30:28.135
convert it to a raw transaction, but that's not difficult. It can be done with, like, or Electrum or or or or, you know, somewhere I might just at some point might be able to sign PSBPs as well. But in any case, you know, that that account which you import can be multi sig or can be, like, total cold storage. And you can construct PSBT
474
00:30:28.515 --> 00:30:29.335
with LND,
475
00:30:30.470 --> 00:30:32.250
which I'm sure we will see
476
00:30:32.550 --> 00:30:33.050
you,
477
00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:39.050
you graphical interfaces for, like, you know, or RTL or whatever boss
478
00:30:40.215 --> 00:30:44.635
in the command line. And you will be able to pass that on either,
479
00:30:45.095 --> 00:30:48.630
you know, the usual way through an SD card or or, like,
480
00:30:49.090 --> 00:31:03.355
through a QR code to your hardware wallet, including code card. Or with the CK bunker, you could you could actually make some kind of API or even a command line interface as as, Emily K pointed out on on the Twitter thread that,
481
00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:05.840
it's already possible to kind of,
482
00:31:06.620 --> 00:31:08.080
run a CK bunker and
483
00:31:08.540 --> 00:31:10.160
then give it paste
484
00:31:11.075 --> 00:31:15.555
the USBP on this on the command line and have it signed according to the able to
485
00:31:16.435 --> 00:31:18.170
486
00:31:18.970 --> 00:31:21.790
I'm I'm so glad you brought this up because this is what
487
00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:26.270
I want to bring into Zeus as the biggest new feature on the redesign.
488
00:31:27.325 --> 00:31:30.865
I would like people to be able to craft channel opens
489
00:31:31.245 --> 00:31:34.705
and then be able to open them from the device, like a hard
490
00:31:35.350 --> 00:31:37.929
air wallet device with a camera and QR code
491
00:31:38.790 --> 00:31:39.770
scanner that
492
00:31:41.270 --> 00:31:49.914
like, like, say, the Kobo Vault or, what's the new one? Key stone? I know there's also the Spectre DIY, which I wanna put together.
493
00:31:50.775 --> 00:31:51.755
And, of course,
494
00:31:52.215 --> 00:31:53.434
I've been berating
495
00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:57.840
Rodolfo over here to release his own gold card QR product.
496
00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:12.435
So, Rodolfo, I know you're just flooding QR codes and scanners because you're dragging your feet on getting this police out the door. So can you can you quit doing that? Can you send me a prototype, and we'll work on the the validation, the confirmation, please?
497
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:13.080
Because
498
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:19.340
so the problem is the user not validating that data, right, on the PSVT stuff? Yeah.
499
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.045
500
00:32:24.465 --> 00:32:26.725
mean, there is a lot less need
501
00:32:27.345 --> 00:32:31.525
than people think for a hardware wallet that can read QRs
502
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:32.740
because,
503
00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:39.299
and I'll tell you this from, like, what's not like, it's not this is not the shiny sort of, like,
504
00:32:40.005 --> 00:32:43.945
experimental stuff that people love to talk about on Twitter, but, like, just from, like,
505
00:32:44.245 --> 00:32:44.645
the
506
00:32:45.445 --> 00:32:47.865
we have a very decent sized user base.
507
00:32:48.405 --> 00:32:48.905
And
508
00:32:49.340 --> 00:32:50.080
most people,
509
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:54.640
1, are never gonna use a phone for large amounts of money
510
00:32:54.940 --> 00:33:08.840
even if they're using a harder wallet. Right? Because you cannot control your privacy on the phone properly. I mean, sure, you can if you, you know, do Graphene and you put Thor and then you run your own node on the phone, all that stuff. Not trivial. It's definitely not trivial.
511
00:33:09.620 --> 00:33:12.200
Exactly. So so what people do is
512
00:33:12.735 --> 00:33:19.795
and this is the large majority of the people holding money that matters to them. Right? Like, so more than spending money.
513
00:33:20.309 --> 00:33:23.450
They have a a spare laptop or even their main machine
514
00:33:24.390 --> 00:33:28.650
where they have Bitcoin Core, and then they have Spectre. They have,
515
00:33:29.110 --> 00:33:29.850
a Sparrow.
516
00:33:30.375 --> 00:33:31.195
They have Electrum,
517
00:33:31.895 --> 00:33:32.955
something like that.
518
00:33:33.495 --> 00:33:36.075
And that's sort of like their money machine. Right?
519
00:33:36.375 --> 00:33:42.020
And then they use that machine to talk to the cold card either via USB or via SD card
520
00:33:42.560 --> 00:33:44.260
only when they're gonna sign.
521
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.915
Right? So oftentimes,
522
00:33:46.215 --> 00:33:48.155
the cold card is not even on the premise
523
00:33:48.535 --> 00:33:49.915
of where the computer is.
524
00:33:50.775 --> 00:33:53.115
So the the microSD shuffle
525
00:33:53.415 --> 00:33:54.635
is is a lot
526
00:33:55.010 --> 00:33:55.830
more important
527
00:33:57.330 --> 00:33:58.230
than it seems.
528
00:33:58.690 --> 00:33:59.990
Right? The USB
529
00:34:00.450 --> 00:34:08.595
shuffling of data means you can take the data from the money machine, your laptop that's, like, sort of like your your bank machine, right,
530
00:34:09.375 --> 00:34:12.815
all the way to your secret location where you have your hardware wallet,
531
00:34:14.640 --> 00:34:15.140
without
532
00:34:15.520 --> 00:34:16.020
carrying
533
00:34:16.640 --> 00:34:22.020
the actual hardware wallet with you. Right? So the hardware wallet never leaves your secure location,
534
00:34:23.325 --> 00:34:29.025
and never goes any place. The radios are accessible like nothing. Right? It just leaves in some dark place,
535
00:34:30.045 --> 00:34:31.185
and that's where it goes.
536
00:34:31.839 --> 00:34:37.220
And that's not even to count, you know, if people are splitting things, if they have passphrase or whatever. Right?
537
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:38.980
So
538
00:34:39.615 --> 00:34:41.234
the problem with incentivizing
539
00:34:42.335 --> 00:34:48.835
people to use QR codes and hardware wallets is that you're making easy for them to have the device
540
00:34:49.940 --> 00:34:50.840
in their hands
541
00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:52.680
where they shouldn't.
542
00:34:53.220 --> 00:35:03.045
543
00:35:03.345 --> 00:35:04.565
whereas with a
544
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:10.099
micro SD card, I could just put the PSVT on there and take it to another location.
545
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:12.099
546
00:35:13.445 --> 00:35:21.225
And then and then there is also so it it's like a bunch of, like, little UX things that do cause people to lose or not lose money. Right?
547
00:35:21.600 --> 00:35:26.340
And then, of course, there's, like, a lot of people fall for evil QRS.
548
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:33.525
Not that the microSD fully solves that, but it sort of pushes away the QR from view at all. Right?
549
00:35:36.225 --> 00:35:39.285
Say we're not building a QR code capable device,
550
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:46.380
that's just not our priority, but it's sort of like a side project that we have for actually quite some time.
551
00:35:47.955 --> 00:35:49.655
It's just that if you're gonna build
552
00:35:50.515 --> 00:35:53.095
a harder device that has QR capability,
553
00:35:54.355 --> 00:35:55.890
then not focusing
554
00:35:56.190 --> 00:36:01.170
on the Huddl, but focusing on other things that you wanna do with QR, if you wanna do a stagefulness,
555
00:36:02.190 --> 00:36:03.250
seems more useful.
556
00:36:09.445 --> 00:36:10.585
557
00:36:11.790 --> 00:36:20.610
how do you think you're gonna proceed forward then with the cold card line? Is there not gonna be a model now with the camera and the color screen and whatnot?
558
00:36:21.664 --> 00:36:22.484
559
00:36:22.865 --> 00:36:25.045
so what we're doing is mark
560
00:36:25.585 --> 00:36:29.045
4 is is, like, focus on increased security.
561
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:33.160
But it's, like, between quotes, infinite memory
562
00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:37.000
because it's just a it's a few orders of magnitude more memory.
563
00:36:37.455 --> 00:36:39.555
564
00:36:40.975 --> 00:36:41.475
565
00:36:42.255 --> 00:36:47.155
Like, that's why we're we joke internally. It's, like, relatively speaking, it's infinite memory.
566
00:36:49.089 --> 00:36:49.589
And,
567
00:36:50.210 --> 00:36:55.030
many other sort of, like, capabilities in that spectrum. So, like, much bigger chip family,
568
00:36:56.725 --> 00:37:00.425
you know, we we have some interesting things going on with Secure Elements.
569
00:37:01.765 --> 00:37:04.745
570
00:37:06.220 --> 00:37:08.000
571
00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:10.960
And,
572
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:18.395
yeah. Like, the focus is that. Right? So it's like, you know, we're gonna refine the the the the plastic a little more.
573
00:37:19.655 --> 00:37:21.835
It's the same. It's, like, clear.
574
00:37:22.420 --> 00:37:29.880
But, like, we we want to just sorta it's a it's mark 4, so it's incremental. Right? The QR camera stuff with bigger,
575
00:37:31.224 --> 00:37:34.365
screen and all that stuff, that's a separate product line.
576
00:37:34.825 --> 00:37:37.724
It's not gonna be the MK line.
577
00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:39.250
578
00:37:39.950 --> 00:37:43.570
it's gonna be for people who don't need as hardcore security.
579
00:37:43.950 --> 00:37:48.275
They're willing to add other dependencies into the stack including that camera,
580
00:37:49.375 --> 00:37:51.155
581
00:37:52.015 --> 00:37:56.820
It it it's, you know, it's gonna be able to do more things, but it's gonna have different set of trade offs.
582
00:37:57.380 --> 00:38:00.840
Right? It's it's like a different beast. For sure. Cool.
583
00:38:01.700 --> 00:38:02.600
584
00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:07.505
you know, I I should might as well just give you my money now because I want both those products.
585
00:38:09.805 --> 00:38:13.220
586
00:38:13.940 --> 00:38:20.200
587
00:38:20.744 --> 00:38:26.765
lightning network payments on the coin kite shop if he gives me an original block off.
588
00:38:27.680 --> 00:38:34.180
The offer is still on the table, but, you know, wanna sub that out for a nice selection of the new gold cards, it'd be worth something.
589
00:38:37.285 --> 00:38:41.385
590
00:38:42.485 --> 00:38:44.905
Yeah. Whatever we made is sold.
591
00:38:45.260 --> 00:38:49.339
I have my own stash, but that's it. Hell, yeah. Well, congrats, man.
592
00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:54.720
593
00:38:55.405 --> 00:39:00.625
happy to see it a whole bunch of places. Any time I hang out at a Vic Hunter's house, it seems like they have it.
594
00:39:00.925 --> 00:39:03.905
So, yeah, props to you for making another great product there.
595
00:39:06.470 --> 00:39:07.430
596
00:39:08.390 --> 00:39:10.810
it's a fun space to build stuff too.
597
00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:12.705
598
00:39:14.625 --> 00:39:15.125
Alright.
599
00:39:15.505 --> 00:39:20.885
Who else we got up here? We had just for up here, but I guess he dipped. I hope he's still
600
00:39:22.430 --> 00:39:23.250
recording everything.
601
00:39:27.470 --> 00:39:35.224
Yeah. This is pretty much a free for all, folks. Anyone wants to get in on the mix. Let's see. There's Actually just a quick Can I Oh, go ahead, Nipriddelpa?
602
00:39:35.525 --> 00:39:44.500
603
00:39:45.895 --> 00:40:01.625
I'm actually curious for OpenNoms. Like, I was it you who created the the open and close the channels on the Lakrum with hardware wallet? Or, like, I I think you did something if I remember right. And then also Yeah. I put together a guide on satbass.org,
604
00:40:02.325 --> 00:40:04.825
605
00:40:05.205 --> 00:40:07.705
so I wrote out a guide to use PSVTs,
606
00:40:08.805 --> 00:40:09.705
with Electrum
607
00:40:10.710 --> 00:40:12.250
to batch open channels.
608
00:40:12.630 --> 00:40:14.809
And it also uses the balance of Satoshi's,
609
00:40:15.589 --> 00:40:17.405
tool or the boss tool.
610
00:40:19.325 --> 00:40:25.425
So so, yeah, I've I've got a guide on that. The the issue from, like, a u e UI perspective
611
00:40:25.725 --> 00:40:28.210
is that you only have 15 minutes,
612
00:40:29.710 --> 00:40:32.690
to actually construct the PSVT and sign it.
613
00:40:33.710 --> 00:40:36.289
15 minutes. Right. The current version. So
614
00:40:37.695 --> 00:40:51.020
615
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.340
just sort of send it over for you to sign?
616
00:40:55.365 --> 00:40:56.345
617
00:40:56.645 --> 00:41:02.825
you know, I'm not familiar with that the hardware and, going through that process, but maybe OpenOMS might be able to speak to that.
618
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:13.410
619
00:41:13.765 --> 00:41:17.225
normal. That's why c k bunker would come even more useful.
620
00:41:18.325 --> 00:41:23.910
Yeah. That's that's one of my projects I'm I'm really looking into to kind of implement c k bunker properly
621
00:41:25.010 --> 00:41:26.310
and start to play with it.
622
00:41:27.010 --> 00:41:31.990
Certainly possible. I mean, it's PSBD, so it should be able to sign. You can actually realize quite a bit of savings.
623
00:41:32.645 --> 00:41:34.665
624
00:41:35.125 --> 00:41:37.385
signing and opening channels with a PSVT
625
00:41:38.165 --> 00:41:38.665
provides,
626
00:41:40.130 --> 00:41:41.109
it also enables
627
00:41:41.569 --> 00:41:43.430
you to batch open the channels
628
00:41:44.049 --> 00:41:46.549
so you can actually realize quite a bit of savings.
629
00:41:47.265 --> 00:41:53.045
And then so which means that you could increase your profits as a routing node if you just back Yeah.
630
00:41:53.744 --> 00:41:57.540
631
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:00.100
a a whole bunch of different,
632
00:42:03.935 --> 00:42:17.600
signed transactions, just un broadcast them, just hold them, and then pick the one that makes the most sense. Like, you could have different fees set up on them no. And not have the device connected anymore. So so the way way it works, you need to
633
00:42:18.060 --> 00:42:21.595
634
00:42:22.055 --> 00:42:25.915
So then you will get the multisig address from that interaction,
635
00:42:26.375 --> 00:42:29.355
and you need to send the agreed amount
636
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.580
to that multisig address within 10 minutes
637
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:38.740
for the request to live still. So for the peers to accept the channel and the channel to be open.
638
00:42:41.575 --> 00:42:43.595
So that's that's the time limit.
639
00:42:44.135 --> 00:42:47.590
So this is not about, like, justice transactions or anything
640
00:42:59.484 --> 00:42:59.984
641
00:43:01.325 --> 00:43:08.760
642
00:43:10.474 --> 00:43:13.135
channel opening flow is based on PSBTs.
643
00:43:13.435 --> 00:43:21.840
Like, they didn't even implement anything else, which is which is great in terms of, compatibility and, you know, just constructing all kinds of transactions.
644
00:43:23.500 --> 00:43:25.920
645
00:43:26.700 --> 00:43:34.035
Do they look like standard Bitcoin transactions, or or is there anything sort of, like, nonstandard about them? So it would be just,
646
00:43:34.335 --> 00:43:36.835
you know, the the the hardware wouldn't even care.
647
00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:40.340
648
00:43:41.200 --> 00:43:41.780
a funding
649
00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:50.815
650
00:43:51.914 --> 00:43:53.694
651
00:43:54.234 --> 00:43:55.135
put it in.
652
00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:56.230
Yeah.
653
00:43:57.010 --> 00:44:01.349
Yeah. For sure. Just been messing around with all the PSPP stuff. Hopefully, I could
654
00:44:02.775 --> 00:44:04.455
put it out with a bunch of,
655
00:44:04.935 --> 00:44:09.035
business updates with the redesign and whatnot. It's gonna be a fun summer. Let me tell you, folks.
656
00:44:09.415 --> 00:44:12.475
Easy as hell. But it's a well worth it.
657
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:21.180
Yeah. Yeah. After after you mean, after the show, I'm trying to pick up my, my keystone device too. Lexus sent me one of the new Kobo
658
00:44:21.645 --> 00:44:24.385
successors too. So you're messing around with PSVTs,
659
00:44:25.245 --> 00:44:27.585
air gaps with QR code and camera
660
00:44:28.605 --> 00:44:31.890
on that front too. So lot of tools to mess around with.
661
00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:36.369
662
00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:39.329
is to coin join into a lightning channel,
663
00:44:39.935 --> 00:44:43.795
which is already possible with join market since you are able to
664
00:44:44.495 --> 00:44:47.700
pay to an external address with a coinjoin with join market,
665
00:44:48.660 --> 00:44:52.359
using your own amount, no pool sizes and such.
666
00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:53.140
But,
667
00:44:54.579 --> 00:44:58.815
only problem is that for now, as we don't have output yet,
668
00:44:59.355 --> 00:45:04.660
and obviously lightning is not lightning channels are not using that output either. It's
669
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.819
it's obvious
670
00:45:07.359 --> 00:45:08.819
which output is
671
00:45:09.520 --> 00:45:10.900
sticking out, and
672
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:12.045
that
673
00:45:12.444 --> 00:45:14.464
output would belong to
674
00:45:15.005 --> 00:45:19.744
the taker as well who initiated the word transaction. So, like, you do a 9 participants
675
00:45:20.230 --> 00:45:24.170
coin join and only one address is longer, which is a 2 of 2 multisig.
676
00:45:24.630 --> 00:45:25.369
So, obviously,
677
00:45:25.830 --> 00:45:28.410
you know, that is being used to
678
00:45:32.395 --> 00:45:38.735
that that was the one which belongs to the initiator of the channel. So if you of the coin joint. So if you have
679
00:45:39.700 --> 00:45:42.920
minus good chance because you only did 1 coin joint,
680
00:45:44.900 --> 00:45:50.935
and you would have a chance to kind of identify that this conjoined Sudoku who was the taker,
681
00:45:51.395 --> 00:45:53.095
then, you know, you could
682
00:45:53.395 --> 00:45:53.895
basically
683
00:45:54.275 --> 00:45:55.975
have have a link there,
684
00:45:56.355 --> 00:45:57.080
which is
685
00:45:57.400 --> 00:45:57.720
not,
686
00:45:58.200 --> 00:46:12.755
not a good idea good idea to have. We should because of the time limit that you have 10 minutes to do this, and you need to coordinate it to all the other participants, you know, you could be out of time. So so that is not not something which which would be recommended.
687
00:46:13.055 --> 00:46:13.555
But
688
00:46:14.080 --> 00:46:19.140
689
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:29.285
690
00:46:29.825 --> 00:46:37.200
691
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:39.040
that wouldn't be,
692
00:46:39.595 --> 00:46:45.775
like, I mean, you can still put in a remote location over Tor. That's what the CK bunker was designed for. But,
693
00:46:46.955 --> 00:46:50.080
you know, like, if this is just your your channel
694
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:52.800
sort of, management tool, right,
695
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:58.960
you don't have to have all your life savings there that could be in your house,
696
00:47:00.205 --> 00:47:02.065
and, and you're gonna be just fine.
697
00:47:02.925 --> 00:47:09.099
Your TV is gonna probably be worth more. So I I don't think that's, like, the security profile there that's a concern.
698
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:14.619
699
00:47:15.240 --> 00:47:20.285
using an external wallet with lightning that can also specify the channels to be closed
700
00:47:20.745 --> 00:47:22.605
or to an external address
701
00:47:23.865 --> 00:47:25.085
at 2 times
702
00:47:25.710 --> 00:47:30.849
either when you are opening the channel, so it can be only closed to that address
703
00:47:31.390 --> 00:47:37.595
in a cooperative case. Or when you are closing the channel, you can also if it haven't hasn't been,
704
00:47:38.615 --> 00:47:40.555
decided yet, then your side
705
00:47:41.470 --> 00:47:42.369
of the amount,
706
00:47:42.670 --> 00:47:56.444
you can for your your side of the amount, you can specify an address, which can be an external address, and it can be a cold card. And, obviously, if it's been already, like, kind of imported the export was imported to LND, then, you know, it can be streamlined much much better. So,
707
00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:00.160
once you close the channel, then you have a thin cost of issue. I know we're gonna
708
00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:03.700
get a lot of stuff. Straight away. Now that's pretty that's pretty nice touch.
709
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.940
710
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:16.850
to have my channel closed, go right into a coin joint transaction? That's when things get really fun. I know we're gonna get a lot of in ads Taproot.
711
00:48:17.470 --> 00:48:21.090
We're gonna obfuscate our channel opens and close in that regard, but
712
00:48:21.390 --> 00:48:23.865
when can I take it the extra mile and
713
00:48:24.165 --> 00:48:26.905
tow it to a proper point joint right out of my lightning channel?
714
00:48:27.925 --> 00:48:31.785
715
00:48:33.130 --> 00:48:33.630
maker,
716
00:48:34.490 --> 00:48:35.710
wallet? Yeah. Exactly.
717
00:48:36.250 --> 00:48:38.590
718
00:48:38.890 --> 00:48:45.525
But if you had some way of divvying it up and splitting into, like, the exact size pool and it kicks off transaction,
719
00:48:46.545 --> 00:48:48.404
that would be something else to to hold.
720
00:48:49.080 --> 00:48:51.740
But hell, we're heading the right direction. And,
721
00:48:52.600 --> 00:49:03.455
now we've already got a great array of tools to help enhance our privacy, and we know it's gonna be getting better in November. Fingers crossed, you know. Hopefully, the miners don't screw us. Right? Rodolfo was alluded to earlier.
722
00:49:04.795 --> 00:49:07.590
723
00:49:08.310 --> 00:49:10.010
724
00:49:10.390 --> 00:49:12.570
Don't trust verify, as they say.
725
00:49:13.350 --> 00:49:17.575
So let's see. Let's see. A lot of lot of awesome, stuff going on that front.
726
00:49:18.135 --> 00:49:21.755
And, yeah, I think in the next year, we're gonna see a lot of better user interfaces
727
00:49:22.454 --> 00:49:25.494
to help make those interactions better. Evan. Now you're you're not
728
00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:28.000
729
00:49:28.780 --> 00:49:29.280
LN
730
00:49:29.740 --> 00:49:30.240
to
731
00:49:30.620 --> 00:49:31.680
liquid BTC
732
00:49:32.540 --> 00:49:34.080
to some rounds there
733
00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:35.805
then back out?
734
00:49:36.444 --> 00:49:38.865
735
00:49:39.885 --> 00:49:42.944
736
00:49:43.530 --> 00:49:48.430
737
00:49:48.810 --> 00:49:50.190
He's a really funny follow.
738
00:49:50.490 --> 00:49:50.990
Grubels.
739
00:49:51.925 --> 00:49:59.545
And he was talking about how l two can let you swap in now different commitments from, like, different side chains and whatnot for your channels.
740
00:50:00.010 --> 00:50:04.270
So, like, have taking funds from l n and using that to do, like,
741
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.590
a liquid transfer,
742
00:50:07.095 --> 00:50:09.835
which was crazy. It's, like, a way over my head, but
743
00:50:10.295 --> 00:50:12.234
I think things are gonna become,
744
00:50:12.694 --> 00:50:28.195
quite interesting, the interactions between lightning and liquid. I mean, right now, today, you could go on Liquid, right, and spin up a l n node on that. You have those assurances because, you know, those channels opens and closes or with confidential transactions. Right? You know
745
00:50:28.994 --> 00:50:29.494
746
00:50:30.115 --> 00:50:31.415
Yeah. I mean, like, the,
747
00:50:31.795 --> 00:50:35.335
you know, the trade off there is the federation, but, like,
748
00:50:36.109 --> 00:50:36.849
you know,
749
00:50:37.950 --> 00:50:41.810
I feel I feel like people sort of hate a little bit too much on that. Like,
750
00:50:42.510 --> 00:50:47.825
you know, I don't know of a lot of stories of people being censored on Tethr. Right?
751
00:50:48.445 --> 00:50:50.785
Tethr is fully sensible.
752
00:50:51.724 --> 00:50:53.025
753
00:50:53.470 --> 00:50:56.210
754
00:50:56.510 --> 00:51:00.210
disrupting the offshore bank account. Right? So if you wanna hold dollars
755
00:51:01.285 --> 00:51:06.505
and you don't want anybody to know, just use Tether. And they're not really gonna censor individuals.
756
00:51:08.339 --> 00:51:08.579
So,
757
00:51:09.859 --> 00:51:14.280
so when you think about how how much better the federation system is on liquid,
758
00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:17.319
in terms of, like, censorship resistance,
759
00:51:17.745 --> 00:51:18.245
You
760
00:51:19.665 --> 00:51:23.125
know, like, I I think it's totally worth playing around with that.
761
00:51:26.305 --> 00:51:27.685
762
00:51:28.130 --> 00:51:34.310
Quickwood is, like, head and shoulders above existing custodial solutions. Right? Where only just one party has to be like,
763
00:51:35.125 --> 00:51:35.625
okay.
764
00:51:36.405 --> 00:51:38.665
This is a no go. I'm taking the funds.
765
00:51:39.125 --> 00:51:44.105
So it's what is it? Like, something about 3 of 15 at least at the collude? Or maybe it's higher?
766
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.700
767
00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:51.200
it drops from,
768
00:51:52.065 --> 00:51:54.405
whatever the the big quorum is
769
00:51:54.785 --> 00:51:58.245
to a much smaller one, a 3 out of 5 or something like that.
770
00:51:59.560 --> 00:52:02.220
But but even so, I mean, like, it's fairly distributed.
771
00:52:02.680 --> 00:52:06.935
The actors on it are reasonable for now. And,
772
00:52:08.115 --> 00:52:09.095
you know, eventually,
773
00:52:09.555 --> 00:52:10.535
there there should be
774
00:52:11.555 --> 00:52:14.375
a competing federation, right, for Liquid 2,
775
00:52:15.270 --> 00:52:18.330
which I think would actually make liquid even more interesting,
776
00:52:18.869 --> 00:52:21.930
even the block stream liquid. Let's put it this way.
777
00:52:23.025 --> 00:52:24.325
I think they should incentivize
778
00:52:24.625 --> 00:52:25.765
a competing chain.
779
00:52:29.425 --> 00:52:31.445
Gives cover, but, yeah.
780
00:52:33.060 --> 00:52:33.560
Absolutely.
781
00:52:34.900 --> 00:52:36.200
782
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:46.325
gotta say, anyone who hasn't should go back and find the Citadel dispatch with Wiz and Adam Back. They go really into the weeds on the liquid and,
783
00:52:47.740 --> 00:52:51.119
you know, how the federation works, what the restrictions are,
784
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:57.734
potential scaling issues. Like, that was like a really long rip. I don't think I've heard Adam Beck
785
00:52:58.035 --> 00:52:59.575
do that long a talk.
786
00:53:00.195 --> 00:53:12.460
And, yeah, it was probably one of my favorite podcasts that, has put together on dispatch so far. So check that out, Freak. I don't know the number offhand, but sure you could find it on citadel dispatch.com with a quick search.
787
00:53:15.265 --> 00:53:16.165
788
00:53:17.265 --> 00:53:17.765
with
789
00:53:18.865 --> 00:53:19.905
the spike
790
00:53:20.465 --> 00:53:24.570
791
00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:26.910
792
00:53:27.530 --> 00:53:32.190
So just I know it's on the confidential transactions that, you know, when there was the
793
00:53:33.530 --> 00:53:37.395
spike, I was, like, you know, had a little chat with, like, IRC about,
794
00:53:37.955 --> 00:53:48.160
like, you know, what it would take for joint market to run on liquid. Right? Because it's it's the elements. The it's quite similar to Bitcoin. The there are just a couple of things which you need to change to be able to,
795
00:53:48.700 --> 00:53:51.119
construct transactions on liquid rather than Bitcoin.
796
00:53:51.444 --> 00:53:51.844
But,
797
00:53:52.244 --> 00:53:52.905
that is
798
00:53:53.365 --> 00:53:58.184
actually because of the confidential transact transactions, you don't need equal amounts
799
00:53:58.484 --> 00:53:58.984
outputs.
800
00:54:00.609 --> 00:54:01.750
You need only
801
00:54:02.130 --> 00:54:05.109
basically batch transactions with multiple participants.
802
00:54:05.490 --> 00:54:12.164
So you can go into Telegram group. I mean, okay, now maybe not Telegram, Playtex or, you know, like XMPP or something,
803
00:54:12.625 --> 00:54:14.164
which is more private and
804
00:54:16.040 --> 00:54:18.619
press around your kind of PSVTs
805
00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:21.740
with PS you don't need to know.
806
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:30.965
And you're just, you know, signing your inputs to go to the to your outputs and merge them together, and basically, it will appear as a coin joint,
807
00:54:31.825 --> 00:54:34.805
because the amounts will not be seen.
808
00:54:35.549 --> 00:54:39.730
And then It's quite interesting. But, obviously, you have the problem pegging out.
809
00:54:40.430 --> 00:54:49.450
810
00:54:50.329 --> 00:54:51.310
and then the Electron's,
811
00:54:51.849 --> 00:54:53.710
nodes too for some time. Not shaken.
812
00:54:54.810 --> 00:54:58.329
813
00:54:59.065 --> 00:55:00.685
this must have been, pre,
814
00:55:01.305 --> 00:55:05.085
you know, the initial seeds and whatnot run by everyone.
815
00:55:05.625 --> 00:55:08.685
So you would just hop on there and say, I need some piers. I I'm not shinking.
816
00:55:09.690 --> 00:55:13.230
Well, I guess I guess that makes sense. Like, if you try to take, like, a shitcoin node,
817
00:55:13.609 --> 00:55:19.065
you know, I'm not proud to admit it, but I was helping a friend sync their Dogecoin node to dump their coins. Right?
818
00:55:19.525 --> 00:55:23.865
And, you know, if you don't have ample peers, you cannot sync that thing. It's ridiculous.
819
00:55:24.340 --> 00:55:28.760
So they go through all these hoops of, like, downloading torrents with the vast majority of the blocks.
820
00:55:29.380 --> 00:55:33.704
So, yeah, I I guess it makes a lot of sense for people to be advertising
821
00:55:34.005 --> 00:55:38.425
that they are out on the network on something like IRC. That's pretty funny.
822
00:55:43.829 --> 00:55:46.809
823
00:55:47.430 --> 00:55:47.930
batch
824
00:55:48.295 --> 00:55:49.755
transactions. It's not really.
825
00:55:51.175 --> 00:55:52.635
Like, obviously, you shouldn't
826
00:55:53.015 --> 00:55:58.849
connect to, you know, other people know other people's notes if especially if you don't know them.
827
00:55:59.869 --> 00:56:11.484
And, also, if you're sharing your transaction, then, you know, you're sharing all all the data, which is within it. So it's it's not a recommended thing. It's just could be kind of a proof concept to start off,
828
00:56:12.750 --> 00:56:13.570
kind of quasi
829
00:56:13.950 --> 00:56:18.130
coin joints or liquid, and then, obviously, you will automate it. It's something on your communication
830
00:56:18.430 --> 00:56:28.755
system. Didn't joint market also had at some point, IRC too. I remember. The joint market does communicate in IRC, but it's those are Yeah. Anonymized dots.
831
00:56:29.130 --> 00:56:32.510
So That's right. You know, they they don't give out all the information
832
00:56:32.810 --> 00:56:36.110
on the if they engage in the coin joint, then, obviously, they
833
00:56:36.535 --> 00:56:39.355
tell about their inputs and outputs to the taker,
834
00:56:40.775 --> 00:56:43.035
who is the coordinator and who also
835
00:56:43.390 --> 00:56:44.930
pays the fees.
836
00:56:45.710 --> 00:56:52.770
So that's why it's, the most private way to use to a market is to be a taker to initiate the coin joints and coordinate at the same
837
00:56:57.915 --> 00:57:08.119
But the order communication is still in IRC, so there is, like, a public order book, which is which is an I r which is, like, 2 or 3 IRC servers, which are obviously public. So,
838
00:57:08.420 --> 00:57:09.319
you know, reports
839
00:57:09.865 --> 00:57:10.365
advertise
840
00:57:10.745 --> 00:57:16.285
the amount of it, which are all randomized so that it can't be coordinated to the actual, you know,
841
00:57:17.065 --> 00:57:19.490
value or held in the wallet. And
842
00:57:20.830 --> 00:57:21.330
also,
843
00:57:22.910 --> 00:57:27.485
amount and the fees they are they are offering for. And then when that is
844
00:57:28.285 --> 00:57:28.785
matches
845
00:57:29.245 --> 00:57:30.785
with the taker, then
846
00:57:31.085 --> 00:57:33.025
they would the communication would be encrypted
847
00:57:33.645 --> 00:57:34.145
DMs
848
00:57:34.525 --> 00:57:35.790
still on IRC. Wait.
849
00:57:36.750 --> 00:57:42.865
Some flood protection there. So, you know, you cannot go really higher than that. Yeah. I I I have no idea.
850
00:57:44.945 --> 00:57:45.685
It's already
851
00:57:45.985 --> 00:57:52.805
15 participants, and Gorgen is already kind of, pushing it. So usually Wait. Wait. So is this the default mechanism for JS?
852
00:57:53.170 --> 00:57:54.930
Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. It's it's
853
00:57:55.650 --> 00:58:11.840
Wow. Yeah. I I had I had no idea. Yes. Did they ever implemented the fidelity bonds or no. That never happened. Right? That is not like, never happened. It's in progress. Right? In the next zero Right. Okay. So Joe market just had a new release now, which is like a kind of a minor release. Right?
854
00:58:12.460 --> 00:58:12.960
083.
855
00:58:14.140 --> 00:58:15.760
It's loads of kind of efficiency,
856
00:58:17.020 --> 00:58:17.920
gains and
857
00:58:18.255 --> 00:58:22.275
some privacy improvements and some algorithmic stuff, bug fixes, etcetera.
858
00:58:23.055 --> 00:58:25.795
But in the next major 30, 0
859
00:58:26.150 --> 00:58:29.370
dot 9, it is planned to have the fidelity bonds,
860
00:58:30.230 --> 00:58:33.930
merged in and working. I mean, it's it's already the PR is is
861
00:58:34.714 --> 00:58:36.415
being reviewed tested since
862
00:58:37.915 --> 00:58:38.555
many months.
863
00:58:40.155 --> 00:58:42.255
And, I mean, there is progress in there.
864
00:58:46.350 --> 00:58:54.595
865
00:58:54.975 --> 00:59:04.410
866
00:59:05.430 --> 00:59:05.930
But
867
00:59:06.390 --> 00:59:11.224
comes comes with trade offs. I mean, you need to sometimes jump IRC servers. Like, it's
868
00:59:11.785 --> 00:59:14.924
you know, like, GM wasn't using free node free node,
869
00:59:15.785 --> 00:59:16.285
except
870
00:59:16.640 --> 00:59:19.140
for their kind of, you know, developer chats,
871
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:20.500
normal,
872
00:59:21.120 --> 00:59:22.180
communication channel.
873
00:59:23.520 --> 00:59:28.905
But, you know, some some servers will basically go down and then you need to change or that you need to change the address,
874
00:59:29.684 --> 00:59:31.704
the hidden service address and that, etcetera,
875
00:59:32.710 --> 00:59:34.089
and we said there is the flood
876
00:59:34.470 --> 00:59:34.970
protection,
877
00:59:35.829 --> 00:59:37.450
which is like a rate limitation.
878
00:59:38.309 --> 00:59:38.809
But,
879
00:59:40.069 --> 00:59:41.130
I mean, it's it's,
880
00:59:41.605 --> 00:59:42.185
you know,
881
00:59:43.045 --> 00:59:44.505
it it is one thing which
882
00:59:44.965 --> 00:59:48.430
someone could take and improve upon. There's been, like,
883
00:59:49.150 --> 00:59:59.155
884
00:59:59.615 --> 01:00:03.955
But for for people that haven't tried it, I highly recommend it. Like, because,
885
01:00:04.975 --> 01:00:13.190
you actually make money as a maker, So you you just you put some funds in a in a machine. You're gonna run this thing, and you just let it run.
886
01:00:13.809 --> 01:00:18.235
You set your your fees, and that's it. It's, like, it's actually pretty cool.
887
01:00:18.775 --> 01:00:20.375
888
01:00:21.494 --> 01:00:25.400
so the income is very much comparable to kind of an
889
01:00:26.359 --> 01:00:32.299
amateur, let's say. I mean, everyone is is an amateur pretty much, you know, except like Alex Bosters, but to,
890
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:33.740
to an amateur
891
01:00:34.045 --> 01:00:34.545
routing
892
01:00:34.964 --> 01:00:35.464
notes.
893
01:00:35.885 --> 01:00:36.545
The income
894
01:00:37.325 --> 01:00:39.905
on GM is comparable to that, except
895
01:00:40.365 --> 01:00:47.940
there is no way to lose money in the coin joint as a maker because, you know, obviously, you're only signing transactions which are
896
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:50.305
bringing some fee to you,
897
01:00:50.605 --> 01:00:52.385
maybe only a couple of Satoshis,
898
01:00:53.005 --> 01:01:02.630
but you always gain privacy. And and there is no babysitting either. Right? It's like set it and forget it. Set and forget. Exactly. I mean, that's that's what happens on the joining box as well. It's basically just,
899
01:01:03.589 --> 01:01:09.765
runs as a system deep process. And, you know, until it's it's it's get shut down, it just goes in the background
900
01:01:10.625 --> 01:01:11.605
and does its communication.
901
01:01:14.385 --> 01:01:16.405
Uber store only. That you can you don't end up with fixed amounts. But
902
01:01:26.165 --> 01:01:30.645
Yeah. It's great fun. You know? Try to join market, and then and then it's the the thing is that you can
903
01:01:32.085 --> 01:01:34.585
you don't end up with fixed amounts,
904
01:01:35.290 --> 01:01:43.230
but you have a wide range of you know, if you started a big UTX, so it's broken up to smaller ones. If you have a lot of smaller ones, then, you know,
905
01:01:43.555 --> 01:01:45.495
it can be merged together
906
01:01:46.515 --> 01:01:51.495
through coin joints by others as well as well as by yourself if you
907
01:01:51.875 --> 01:01:53.460
are opting to be a taker.
908
01:01:54.740 --> 01:01:58.440
So the thing is you will have, you know, wide range of amounts
909
01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:10.825
available to open a channel. So if you just want to construct a PSVT from that, you know, you can import your your x bot to the NND wallet now, or you can just do the external funding with the balance of satoshis
910
01:02:11.205 --> 01:02:12.585
or with with c lightning.
911
01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:14.710
And you can just choose
912
01:02:16.450 --> 01:02:21.030
the the UTXO you would want to spend and see account for some fees.
913
01:02:21.410 --> 01:02:21.910
And
914
01:02:23.395 --> 01:02:25.654
if you want to if you prefer privacy,
915
01:02:26.515 --> 01:02:28.535
pay higher fees on the transaction,
916
01:02:28.835 --> 01:02:30.535
and don't create any change.
917
01:02:31.390 --> 01:02:31.890
If
918
01:02:32.190 --> 01:02:37.329
you want to be sure that your transaction goes through, even if there is a fee spike, then you must
919
01:02:38.029 --> 01:02:41.214
think of creating a bit of a change to be able to
920
01:02:41.994 --> 01:02:46.415
CPF 3, charge space with parent, the general opening transaction. Because
921
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:48.580
if it doesn't get into
922
01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:56.820
the blockchain in 2 weeks after opening the channel, then it will become a stale channel, and, you know, you can it can be stuck
923
01:02:57.244 --> 01:03:02.865
if you if you lose your information because the pair won't take any load of it anymore.
924
01:03:03.244 --> 01:03:06.065
So your chance will be to force close it
925
01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:06.940
yourself.
926
01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:09.260
So, yeah, there are some
927
01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:11.740
things like that using external wallets.
928
01:03:12.040 --> 01:03:13.480
But, yeah, I think with,
929
01:03:13.880 --> 01:03:14.380
Anthony,
930
01:03:15.305 --> 01:03:19.485
we've been going through of of of this question about how to how to
931
01:03:20.985 --> 01:03:23.245
best to use the coin control in lightning,
932
01:03:24.025 --> 01:03:33.650
which was, I mean, just coming from the different size of UTXO in in which market. Well, that's how do you how do would you do the coin control the best? And as as we said then as well,
933
01:03:33.950 --> 01:03:37.944
that for privacy, it is best to just use value TXO without change,
934
01:03:38.405 --> 01:03:39.065
but then
935
01:03:39.605 --> 01:03:40.345
you are
936
01:03:40.885 --> 01:03:52.190
exposing yourself to the risk of, you know, getting stuck in Oh, no. So I have one question. What what's the volume looking like over at JM right now? I haven't been on a while. And Yeah. What's the Any questions on these kind of things that
937
01:03:52.995 --> 01:03:53.815
seem to just,
938
01:03:54.675 --> 01:03:55.815
keep going on these?
939
01:03:58.755 --> 01:04:08.329
940
01:04:09.885 --> 01:04:17.105
941
01:04:17.950 --> 01:04:22.450
OB Butcher, which is not a public order big voucher, which is
942
01:04:22.990 --> 01:04:26.545
for which you don't need to spin up your own instance. So if you go to nixbitcoin.org/obwatcher,
943
01:04:29.964 --> 01:04:30.464
then
944
01:04:30.845 --> 01:04:36.220
it's it's it's all there. I mean, it's just the the steady offers for years. But it varies tremendously.
945
01:04:36.680 --> 01:04:50.635
946
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:51.619
947
01:04:52.160 --> 01:04:54.420
even if, you know, I would have that kind of,
948
01:04:56.560 --> 01:05:01.925
amount attempt to go and join anything which has, like, you know, less than
949
01:05:02.385 --> 01:05:04.244
10 makers available, let's say.
950
01:05:04.625 --> 01:05:07.045
Because then you have you have hardly any any
951
01:05:07.720 --> 01:05:17.545
one to to choose from, and then it's easy easy very easy to kind of see build it. So Evan, you can put your 50,000 coins there as a maker. You you you you do well.
952
01:05:21.525 --> 01:05:25.305
953
01:05:25.640 --> 01:05:26.140
bitcoin.org/obwatcher.
954
01:05:28.040 --> 01:05:30.520
Yeah. Exactly. And, yeah, it looks like there's some pretty,
955
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:45.910
956
01:05:46.290 --> 01:05:52.950
the the very small ones, you know, are going to when they go under, like, Aldo's case, Satoshis maybe.
957
01:05:53.265 --> 01:05:56.565
And there are plenty of offers, you know, at at, like, 30,301,000
958
01:05:57.904 --> 01:06:05.320
Satoshis. I mean, you know, that's a significant part of that will be a fee if you if you go more join. Wow. Okay. So I I got it now. So we got 527
959
01:06:05.780 --> 01:06:07.800
960
01:06:08.660 --> 01:06:09.720
The max size
961
01:06:10.105 --> 01:06:11.724
anyone's willing to do looks to be
962
01:06:12.505 --> 01:06:14.204
320 and a half Bitcoin.
963
01:06:14.585 --> 01:06:24.710
964
01:06:25.010 --> 01:06:28.265
965
01:06:29.685 --> 01:06:32.105
SATs, which is pretty incredible too.
966
01:06:33.205 --> 01:06:34.105
Yeah. That's amazing.
967
01:06:34.770 --> 01:06:38.790
Yeah. It's just so much settings. So, yeah, definitely a definitely a nice distribution,
968
01:06:40.050 --> 01:06:43.670
969
01:06:45.065 --> 01:06:51.565
if if the volumes start to grow, if they see action, they will make more coins available.
970
01:06:52.849 --> 01:06:53.810
They will make,
971
01:06:54.450 --> 01:06:56.470
more entries there. Oh, yeah.
972
01:06:56.770 --> 01:07:01.525
Absolutely. Dynamic. Yeah. Like, you you see there's people sort of watching this well.
973
01:07:02.224 --> 01:07:15.910
974
01:07:17.010 --> 01:07:17.990
coins across,
975
01:07:18.355 --> 01:07:27.255
you know, through coin joints across the mix, then they will basically have a close to kind of an equal distribution between the 5. So, you know, someone is
976
01:07:28.799 --> 01:07:31.140
keeping their, you know, 1,000 Bitcoins
977
01:07:31.520 --> 01:07:32.020
on
978
01:07:34.319 --> 01:07:41.425
on on join market for a couple of months, then they will probably end up having, like, you know, 320 or, like, you know, 200 at in a in a mix.
979
01:07:41.725 --> 01:07:43.745
But there will be almost 5 times
980
01:07:44.285 --> 01:07:45.825
as much in the wall
981
01:07:48.300 --> 01:07:51.440
wallet. Right? And then that was actually a change
982
01:07:51.820 --> 01:07:54.240
in the in the latest release that
983
01:07:55.545 --> 01:07:56.365
so far,
984
01:07:57.145 --> 01:07:57.965
as a maker,
985
01:07:58.825 --> 01:08:03.805
you've you would offer always from the smallest kind of, the the least,
986
01:08:04.690 --> 01:08:07.750
the smallest mix that you add coins in. But now
987
01:08:08.370 --> 01:08:08.870
the
988
01:08:10.050 --> 01:08:12.550
the maker kind of will try to fulfill
989
01:08:13.170 --> 01:08:13.670
the
990
01:08:14.194 --> 01:08:17.015
coin join in a way that it will accumulate
991
01:08:17.635 --> 01:08:22.970
the coins in one way that's so it can increase its potential, like, size rather than,
992
01:08:23.450 --> 01:08:29.790
creating this equal distribution, but still, you know, considerably distributed between between the 5 mix ups in anyway.
993
01:08:31.055 --> 01:08:40.469
994
01:08:40.849 --> 01:08:45.030
995
01:08:45.385 --> 01:08:46.125
5 accounts.
996
01:08:46.505 --> 01:08:49.965
Right? So it's, like, 5 dimension of of the same export,
997
01:08:51.705 --> 01:08:52.925
for the same seed.
998
01:08:53.490 --> 01:09:00.150
Yeah. So as you can Mhmm. You can create those in, like, Ledger Live on one click. Right?
999
01:09:00.485 --> 01:09:03.065
Or or you can have it on on any kind of firewall
1000
01:09:03.685 --> 01:09:07.225
or, or an extra or anything. So you can you could,
1001
01:09:07.925 --> 01:09:10.025
import these seeds to
1002
01:09:10.630 --> 01:09:12.890
to other wallets as well because it's all been certified
1003
01:09:13.350 --> 01:09:15.450
compatible. So it's it's just 5 accounts
1004
01:09:15.910 --> 01:09:16.890
where you would
1005
01:09:17.270 --> 01:09:22.934
generally fund 1 or you have if if you have different sources of front funds, you could you could deposit
1006
01:09:23.315 --> 01:09:27.494
to, you know, one from to one from this exchange, one
1007
01:09:28.050 --> 01:09:29.430
to another one to,
1008
01:09:29.810 --> 01:09:34.870
from another exchange. Maybe if you don't have a if you have a non KVACI source, you will you will deposit it,
1009
01:09:35.330 --> 01:09:46.740
to the 3rd mix depth. So these coins won't mix without a coin together without a coin join. Right? Because that the way the way GeoMarks works, when you make a coin joint already participating
1010
01:09:47.120 --> 01:09:49.140
in a coin joint as a maker as well,
1011
01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:52.340
only the coin joint outputs progresses
1012
01:09:52.880 --> 01:10:09.390
to the next mix ups, like from, you know, 1 to 2 or 2 to 5, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and then 4 4 back to 0 and then 0 to 1. So that's how you have the 5. It's it's it's circular with these scripts which you can edit. So, you know, you can have, like, an acyclical
1013
01:10:10.090 --> 01:10:10.590
distribution
1014
01:10:11.050 --> 01:10:11.550
acyclical
1015
01:10:12.005 --> 01:10:16.344
kind of movement of coins as well. But by default, it is it is going
1016
01:10:17.445 --> 01:10:19.545
through the 5 and back to the first
1017
01:10:20.820 --> 01:10:26.360
through coin joints. So if you deposit to different mix depths, then, you know, these coins won't be seen
1018
01:10:26.739 --> 01:10:28.840
won't be merged together. And, also,
1019
01:10:29.364 --> 01:10:31.625
the the non mixed output
1020
01:10:32.965 --> 01:10:38.580
is not being mixed with the coin joint outputs. Right? So it doesn't happen like, you know, there is
1021
01:10:39.540 --> 01:10:41.080
always, like, a 3rd implementation,
1022
01:10:41.620 --> 01:10:48.775
which we like to see say that it is not very well implemented, that it won't click. You can just send all and, you know,
1023
01:10:51.635 --> 01:10:52.615
batched together,
1024
01:10:53.315 --> 01:11:01.159
merge together the non mixed change with the mixed outputs and then, you know, it it just takes away all the and that's that you were you were accumulating.
1025
01:11:01.699 --> 01:11:03.560
With your market, it is,
1026
01:11:04.500 --> 01:11:05.000
segregated,
1027
01:11:05.460 --> 01:11:11.265
like, has the same same idea as it is happening with, like, some of that you have premixed
1028
01:11:14.220 --> 01:11:15.920
premixed wallet or your deposit
1029
01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:16.800
deposit
1030
01:11:17.180 --> 01:11:17.680
wallet.
1031
01:11:18.460 --> 01:11:31.405
Like, in in some wallets, it's good wallets rather than account, but it's the same thing. It's just another derivation path. So you deposit to 1, and then you mix, and it goes to post mix wallet or another account. And then
1032
01:11:31.820 --> 01:11:33.760
the there, the non mixed
1033
01:11:34.220 --> 01:11:35.200
unmissed change
1034
01:11:35.660 --> 01:11:40.640
is actually going to a third account, which is called, like, bad bank or, like, toxic change. Right?
1035
01:11:42.085 --> 01:11:46.184
So that way, it is separated, and they are not you cannot send from
1036
01:11:46.644 --> 01:11:47.385
all the
1037
01:11:48.690 --> 01:11:49.190
wallets
1038
01:11:49.809 --> 01:11:53.829
in similar wallets or all the mix that's in true market. You cannot,
1039
01:11:54.690 --> 01:11:55.590
buy the forward.
1040
01:11:55.915 --> 01:11:56.655
You cannot
1041
01:11:57.034 --> 01:11:59.054
construct a transaction which is sending
1042
01:11:59.594 --> 01:12:02.980
from more than one mix. So this is automatically done
1043
01:12:03.380 --> 01:12:07.239
during when you are a maker that you can only send from one end time.
1044
01:12:09.860 --> 01:12:11.400
Doesn't answer your question.
1045
01:12:12.885 --> 01:12:19.945
1046
01:12:20.599 --> 01:12:21.739
compromise your,
1047
01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:23.340
privacy.
1048
01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:27.820
1049
01:12:28.360 --> 01:12:28.860
1050
01:12:29.285 --> 01:12:31.465
because it doesn't have a marketing team.
1051
01:12:32.565 --> 01:12:35.945
1052
01:12:36.250 --> 01:12:39.469
be very aggressive about why you're not using joint market.
1053
01:12:41.690 --> 01:12:43.790
1054
01:12:44.410 --> 01:12:50.565
1055
01:12:51.605 --> 01:12:52.425
There's definitely
1056
01:12:53.045 --> 01:12:57.640
a bit of a more of a lift to use it, but I'm glad it's now implemented
1057
01:12:58.020 --> 01:12:58.920
in RaspiBlitz.
1058
01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:01.800
And you have the the join market project,
1059
01:13:02.260 --> 01:13:09.065
the join box project that's integrated there. So that's awesome. I would really like to see it implemented on more node platforms.
1060
01:13:10.165 --> 01:13:14.250
But, yeah, it's it's it's really cool. It it's completely different than having, like, a coordinated,
1061
01:13:14.950 --> 01:13:15.450
centralized,
1062
01:13:16.390 --> 01:13:18.570
coordinator that's putting the mixes together.
1063
01:13:19.315 --> 01:13:38.235
And it's all done with a market model, which is, you know, super unique. No one else, to my knowledge, is doing something like that. So, I'm really glad it's around. I'm really glad people like you are putting time to maintain it and make it better and and make better UX's for it. So so thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's I like it because I use it myself.
1064
01:13:38.614 --> 01:13:59.085
And, you know, just Yeah. Exactly. I mean just wanted to streamline it. That's, that's what the joining box is about. And, also, it can be I mean, that's how the best projects are are made, man. Just scratching your own itch to get something done. And if if anyone else likes it too and happens to use it, that's just a bonus. And Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, having, like, you know, contributors to this I mean,
1065
01:14:00.185 --> 01:14:05.140
1066
01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:06.820
you know, just
1067
01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:12.275
fix it this or that. So just even opening issues or or giving some feedback is is is very useful.
1068
01:14:12.895 --> 01:14:15.715
And, yeah, the other thing Yeah. Absolutely. I
1069
01:14:16.574 --> 01:14:28.515
1070
01:14:30.095 --> 01:14:32.755
you know, testing and in testing beta releases
1071
01:14:33.215 --> 01:15:11.260
or, you you know, even doing something like helping with the translations on, like, a Transifex or something. There's so many different ways you can help contribute to these projects. So Yeah. Documentation is is is the biggest thing because all the developers, you know, they can be very good, but, you know, it's very difficult to kind of make make the document code for something that you you you've wrote the code for. Right? Because, obviously, it works. It's in the it's in the code. Why would I need to you know? It's like Yeah. You understand it. It it's like you almost have to step out of your shoes and see, like, what now is either we've perceived everything. That that's what I have a problem with now with with Zeus. We're working on new documentation sites.
1072
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:12.200
And,
1073
01:15:12.760 --> 01:15:20.704
yeah, like, I I can't be the one to write. I'm too close to it. So all I can do is, like, you know, try to get the perspective of other people, help with the copy, and,
1074
01:15:21.405 --> 01:15:25.270
1075
01:15:26.690 --> 01:15:27.270
1076
01:15:27.810 --> 01:15:29.510
That's alright. Hop in Google.
1077
01:15:31.315 --> 01:15:38.295
But, yeah, that's that's definitely one of the big projects we're putting together alongside our redesign this summer. But, yeah, documentation
1078
01:15:39.090 --> 01:15:45.590
is tricky. So, folks, if you're thinking about, you know, projects you like and you're not quite a programmer,
1079
01:15:46.755 --> 01:16:05.560
there's tons of ways to get involved. So Come redo the docs. Come Yeah. Come help come help come help the the cold card docs, please. The telephone needs is direly. Yeah. So, yeah, just just get involved, be vocal, try to reach out on the platforms that these projects are communicating on, whether it be IRC or other forums or the GitHub.
1080
01:16:06.245 --> 01:16:22.520
1081
01:16:23.435 --> 01:16:26.175
And, yeah, that's very it's all very valuable. Yeah.
1082
01:16:26.795 --> 01:16:28.494
Who people who are,
1083
01:16:28.954 --> 01:16:33.960
kind of just flooding the word about how why these people why these things are important and why why we need to
1084
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.639
we need to do this and be be very kind of
1085
01:16:38.059 --> 01:16:40.280
you know, hard line on on using
1086
01:16:40.605 --> 01:16:42.705
using these tools which are available to
1087
01:16:44.445 --> 01:16:47.665
1088
01:16:48.190 --> 01:16:52.050
So how do we get more join market users?
1089
01:16:52.750 --> 01:16:55.170
Do we just need a better or or simpler
1090
01:16:55.790 --> 01:16:56.290
GUI?
1091
01:16:56.875 --> 01:16:58.575
Do we does it need a mobile app?
1092
01:16:59.435 --> 01:17:00.415
What what do you think?
1093
01:17:01.355 --> 01:17:04.815
1094
01:17:05.610 --> 01:17:14.030
not at the level where I could make it, but I can support it. Right? And there is work done to that extent. But, I mean, you know, it's like
1095
01:17:16.235 --> 01:17:16.735
like,
1096
01:17:17.114 --> 01:17:18.895
it's hot swing being the main core,
1097
01:17:19.995 --> 01:17:20.495
contributor
1098
01:17:21.195 --> 01:17:21.515
and,
1099
01:17:22.074 --> 01:17:24.770
kind of coordinator of the project and, like,
1100
01:17:25.230 --> 01:17:26.849
Chris Belcher and then a
1101
01:17:27.150 --> 01:17:29.570
couple of other people who are working on it, like, Christoph's.
1102
01:17:30.590 --> 01:17:31.170
I mean,
1103
01:17:31.635 --> 01:17:33.815
he's actually working a lot of, like,
1104
01:17:34.435 --> 01:17:35.335
little UI
1105
01:17:35.635 --> 01:17:40.215
things and and fixing bugs and stuff. But then, you know, some people are just
1106
01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:49.575
so much But these are programmers building UI. Right? Yeah. They're so much more interested in a protocol or, like, what are the cool things we can do. Right? And and how can
1107
01:17:50.135 --> 01:17:56.315
1108
01:17:57.190 --> 01:18:06.410
has a a tab called joy markets, right, that you just put the money and you press a button. Yeah. Right? That that's like if you want normal people to use it,
1109
01:18:06.715 --> 01:18:13.695
you want this very sort of toned down, pretty sort of phone wallet. The the phone wallets are interesting because they are stateful. Right?
1110
01:18:14.490 --> 01:18:16.430
And they're they're just always connected.
1111
01:18:17.130 --> 01:18:23.755
So, that that that could be an interesting thing. And then, you know, if you're putting 1,000 coins there, then you probably wanna do it from a secure
1112
01:18:24.235 --> 01:18:24.875
computer, but,
1113
01:18:25.435 --> 01:18:26.255
different problems.
1114
01:18:27.034 --> 01:18:31.135
1115
01:18:31.739 --> 01:18:33.760
you know, that I mean, when I was
1116
01:18:34.060 --> 01:18:37.119
started to kind of look at your own marketing, what, like, you know,
1117
01:18:37.420 --> 01:18:41.040
2 years ago or about, you know, we we are we're hitting, like, in a 100
1118
01:18:41.565 --> 01:18:44.385
100 orders, like, you know, 60 to 90.
1119
01:18:44.765 --> 01:18:45.745
It it was obviously
1120
01:18:46.205 --> 01:18:47.405
still on, like, the,
1121
01:18:47.885 --> 01:18:49.185
perhaps, segment addresses
1122
01:18:49.700 --> 01:18:51.560
and, you know, managed to,
1123
01:18:52.580 --> 01:18:53.080
kind
1124
01:18:53.620 --> 01:19:02.145
of have enough adoption of of native segment and also a bit of push from the community to kind of move over to to the native segment addresses like,
1125
01:19:02.704 --> 01:19:06.900
when was it? Like, I don't know. Like, was it a year ago, half year ago? I mean, it wasn't too
1126
01:19:07.380 --> 01:19:11.159
too long ago. But then now there is a sudden jump of of,
1127
01:19:11.780 --> 01:19:26.480
you know, in the number of makers of only. And then you can actually, obviously, just scan the scan the blockchain. There's a script in the joint markets kind of repo to do it, to identify joint market coin joints as well. And that is, like, you know, 6
1128
01:19:27.340 --> 01:19:28.400
30, 60,
1129
01:19:29.180 --> 01:19:31.965
200 kind of transactions per day,
1130
01:19:32.685 --> 01:19:34.145
being done with joint marketing.
1131
01:19:34.764 --> 01:19:35.264
1132
01:19:35.724 --> 01:19:42.060
the the they they used to have a lot of users, but this was way back when that project started.
1133
01:19:44.040 --> 01:19:45.420
When was it? Like, 2015
1134
01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:47.980
Yeah. That this came out?
1135
01:19:48.445 --> 01:19:51.585
Yeah. It was around 2015. There used to be a lot of users.
1136
01:19:52.045 --> 01:19:55.985
Yeah. And then sort of, like, you know, it sort of slowly
1137
01:19:56.525 --> 01:19:57.425
weighed off.
1138
01:19:57.960 --> 01:20:00.780
It seems like, yeah, it seems like it's picking up again now.
1139
01:20:01.160 --> 01:20:01.660
But,
1140
01:20:03.080 --> 01:20:07.020
there there used to be, you know, all the all the crowd that had a a need
1141
01:20:07.425 --> 01:20:12.805
for privacy that was a little bit more needed. And, also, they didn't
1142
01:20:13.425 --> 01:20:15.265
1143
01:20:15.905 --> 01:20:22.619
That's right. I mean, obviously, much less value then. But I remember, like, there's, like, a tweet from Chris from, like, you know, 2015
1144
01:20:23.239 --> 01:20:28.855
that, oh, I that was a good day in joint market. I made, like, points 3 Bitcoin on it. Right? That's
1145
01:20:29.235 --> 01:20:31.335
1146
01:20:31.875 --> 01:20:33.335
1147
01:20:34.220 --> 01:20:37.120
Yeah. How many coins you need for that. Right? It's like 100.
1148
01:20:38.700 --> 01:20:39.200
So
1149
01:20:39.580 --> 01:20:44.265
yeah. And the the usage, I think, obviously, the awareness needs to be
1150
01:20:46.005 --> 01:21:02.355
hooked up. And then, I mean, you know, if these things cost money, so, I mean, after all, you want to be a taker as well. So, okay, you can make some sense that she's being maker, but but to to gain proper privacy, you need to alternate the roles, and you want to be a taker as well. Then you need to pay first I mean,
1151
01:21:02.815 --> 01:21:03.315
it's
1152
01:21:03.855 --> 01:21:04.515
almost negligible
1153
01:21:05.055 --> 01:21:05.795
what you
1154
01:21:06.655 --> 01:21:10.995
need to pay for the takers because everybody's, like, you know, broken them breaking themselves
1155
01:21:12.110 --> 01:21:21.010
to to get into the coin joint, so they just know where the fees to close to 0. But the transaction fees are it can be significant, and we accept we we, you know,
1156
01:21:24.085 --> 01:21:30.585
expect the transaction fees to be to be quite high, you know, going forward. And that certainly does
1157
01:21:31.480 --> 01:21:32.539
take down the activity,
1158
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:34.139
the on chain activity.
1159
01:21:35.639 --> 01:21:39.260
1160
01:21:39.594 --> 01:21:41.614
You're supposed to be working here, dude.
1161
01:21:42.795 --> 01:21:43.935
1162
01:21:45.675 --> 01:21:47.295
1163
01:21:49.690 --> 01:21:56.065
Damn. They let him out of early, man. The Department of Homeland Security let you out of interrogation early. Can't believe it.
1164
01:21:56.864 --> 01:22:02.645
1165
01:22:03.550 --> 01:22:05.730
1166
01:22:06.350 --> 01:22:08.610
We'll test him. We'll test him. We'll know for sure.
1167
01:22:09.950 --> 01:22:11.810
That is if he joins. Who knows?
1168
01:22:12.885 --> 01:22:15.545
But while Matt tries to join or maybe not,
1169
01:22:16.485 --> 01:22:19.465
Nams, does join market have any, like, bounties?
1170
01:22:20.460 --> 01:22:26.400
Because, personally, I would really like to see an API get built around for it. That would really extend its the use of it.
1171
01:22:27.340 --> 01:22:31.455
So is there, like, a bounty system, or do we have to put one together ourselves to get this made?
1172
01:22:33.675 --> 01:22:41.360
1173
01:22:41.980 --> 01:22:44.560
coordinate with the dual funded channels and
1174
01:22:45.465 --> 01:22:46.764
and and coin joints.
1175
01:22:47.385 --> 01:22:52.925
Yes. But they I know Yeah. Obviously, an API would be would be a big step forward. I mean, the thing is you need to,
1176
01:22:53.240 --> 01:22:53.740
yeah,
1177
01:22:55.160 --> 01:22:56.060
you need to motivate
1178
01:22:56.360 --> 01:22:58.620
motivate the people who are
1179
01:23:00.680 --> 01:23:01.900
able to make it,
1180
01:23:03.534 --> 01:23:06.914
who are probably already existing kind of job developers
1181
01:23:07.215 --> 01:23:09.954
to to do it. Yeah. I mean, you know, upon
1182
01:23:11.135 --> 01:23:11.635
surely,
1183
01:23:12.170 --> 01:23:12.909
there was
1184
01:23:13.929 --> 01:23:16.269
quite significant bounties from, like,
1185
01:23:22.114 --> 01:23:30.680
have put them on anyway for, like, just going to an implementation. Right? Which was, like, jointly jointly taken by, like, Wasabi and and and Sunrise as well.
1186
01:23:31.300 --> 01:23:38.920
Right? Or I'm not not not sure. I'm I'm I'm sure that, kind of the first kind of user friendly point of implementation
1187
01:23:39.805 --> 01:23:41.585
bounty was taken up by Sabi,
1188
01:23:42.125 --> 01:23:45.905
you know, when they started, and it was quite, quite a huge thing. It impressed everyone.
1189
01:23:47.930 --> 01:23:49.710
But, yeah, there should be. Is
1190
01:23:50.570 --> 01:23:53.630
1191
01:23:54.345 --> 01:24:04.730
1192
01:24:05.430 --> 01:24:07.770
especially if you have a lot of income,
1193
01:24:08.790 --> 01:24:13.945
it's probably in our interest to make it easy for people to put in their clean coins in there,
1194
01:24:14.804 --> 01:24:20.824
or or even their sort of more complicated coins in there to get all mixed in. Right? You you are looking for more liquidity
1195
01:24:21.320 --> 01:24:22.940
in there to get more privacy.
1196
01:24:23.960 --> 01:24:27.740
1197
01:24:28.905 --> 01:24:33.005
Because, I mean, by default, if you just run I mean, you have, like, a joint market queue
1198
01:24:33.705 --> 01:24:36.205
1199
01:24:48.375 --> 01:24:51.275
1200
01:24:52.590 --> 01:24:53.090
1201
01:24:53.470 --> 01:24:54.030
Yeah. We lost
1202
01:24:54.990 --> 01:24:56.930
yes. Some some connection issues.
1203
01:24:57.710 --> 01:24:59.795
NAMS, what were you saying? Do we have you back?
1204
01:25:00.995 --> 01:25:06.295
1205
01:25:07.235 --> 01:25:07.735
1206
01:25:08.195 --> 01:25:09.780
Yeah. We lost you there for a second.
1207
01:25:10.900 --> 01:25:12.840
But, yeah, we're we're just talking about potentially,
1208
01:25:13.860 --> 01:25:19.765
you know, getting an API for this thing and supporting this thing. If we have an API, we'll get more liquidity in it.
1209
01:25:20.325 --> 01:25:22.985
That should be incentive enough for some of these big whales to
1210
01:25:23.765 --> 01:25:25.785
contribute to a potential bounty. Right?
1211
01:25:28.550 --> 01:25:31.130
1212
01:25:31.909 --> 01:25:35.610
write ups done for, like, a loose architecture and,
1213
01:25:36.844 --> 01:25:40.785
yeah, I think I've already spoke to Fountain from,
1214
01:25:41.165 --> 01:25:45.745
fully noted that he is, you know, want to plug into that. And then, obviously, he was interested
1215
01:25:46.050 --> 01:25:49.430
to have seen that there was not much to plug into so far. But,
1216
01:25:50.370 --> 01:25:50.870
yes.
1217
01:25:53.545 --> 01:25:56.125
You know, this is for this up for discussion for sure.
1218
01:25:56.985 --> 01:25:59.244
1219
01:26:00.540 --> 01:26:08.239
involved on that front. That's definitely something I'd like to see between that and, tying into lightning channel open. So a lot of exciting stuff going
1220
01:26:08.815 --> 01:26:32.095
1221
01:26:32.650 --> 01:26:39.230
1222
01:26:39.815 --> 01:26:40.635
for a mobile
1223
01:26:41.255 --> 01:26:47.115
combination. I got a freak in my DMs. He's saying he's down for a million sats bounty. So
1224
01:26:47.580 --> 01:26:48.320
any potential
1225
01:26:48.699 --> 01:26:52.960
potential devs thinking about implementing it, you know, the sats are coming in from the freaks.
1226
01:26:53.659 --> 01:26:55.679
A lot of people are interested in it.
1227
01:26:55.985 --> 01:27:01.845
And, I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that since there's no, like, de facto central coordinator
1228
01:27:02.385 --> 01:27:03.905
to have the incentive to,
1229
01:27:04.700 --> 01:27:09.280
be iterating on stuff. We, as a community, we have to make sure we step up and make sure
1230
01:27:09.660 --> 01:27:13.455
that we're contributing either with code or financially to the projects that,
1231
01:27:14.015 --> 01:27:16.595
you know, or projects or wrappers that we wanna see built.
1232
01:27:17.535 --> 01:27:21.315
1233
01:27:22.969 --> 01:27:27.150
a central server coordinator to plug into. Right? So,
1234
01:27:28.250 --> 01:27:28.909
I mean
1235
01:27:29.290 --> 01:27:31.790
so you would need to run your Feature, not a bug.
1236
01:27:32.715 --> 01:27:39.115
Yeah. Absolutely. Obviously, this is this is the implementation which you cannot run without having Bitcoin Core fully synced. Right? So
1237
01:27:39.515 --> 01:27:47.160
and you need to kind you can connect to someone else's Bitcoin core node, but that would be, you know, not that easy and,
1238
01:27:47.780 --> 01:27:51.385
you know, not a default kind of behavior for anyone. So,
1239
01:27:52.725 --> 01:27:56.185
the thing is that you would still be around your node, and for that,
1240
01:27:57.125 --> 01:27:58.745
I mean, you really need to
1241
01:27:59.100 --> 01:28:11.095
have, like, a a remote. I mean, yes, Ceaseus would be a a great remote for to send commercial money transactions. But, what you can do is, you know, take the these those exports
1242
01:28:12.195 --> 01:28:13.415
and construct transactions.
1243
01:28:13.715 --> 01:28:14.935
And there is
1244
01:28:16.090 --> 01:28:17.790
s with ck bunker,
1245
01:28:18.250 --> 01:28:21.230
same with joint market. You can just paste an
1246
01:28:22.955 --> 01:28:24.495
add a non sign PSBT,
1247
01:28:24.955 --> 01:28:29.935
a construct PSBT, which you can just sign and develop to after giving you a passport password.
1248
01:28:30.440 --> 01:28:33.660
Right? Not your passport. No password. Right?
1249
01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:35.420
So
1250
01:28:36.040 --> 01:28:41.535
1251
01:28:43.355 --> 01:28:44.495
1252
01:28:45.490 --> 01:28:48.070
so you can sign an externally constructed
1253
01:28:48.450 --> 01:28:54.310
PSPT with join markets in the command line or, like, the join inbox, you can just use that little menu,
1254
01:28:55.025 --> 01:28:56.165
which I put together,
1255
01:28:57.744 --> 01:29:02.165
and, you know, I mean, it could be properly implemented in the QT interface as well.
1256
01:29:03.210 --> 01:29:06.190
And that's how I would I would really kind of send,
1257
01:29:08.090 --> 01:29:09.550
you know, money out of there,
1258
01:29:11.370 --> 01:29:12.725
not not with
1259
01:29:13.105 --> 01:29:17.205
a connected light wallet or like a or like a mobile wallet, to be honest.
1260
01:29:17.505 --> 01:29:18.005
But
1261
01:29:19.910 --> 01:29:25.130
1262
01:29:26.070 --> 01:29:34.864
1263
01:29:35.420 --> 01:29:40.480
fence to be able to to run your own noise and just set up your own market
1264
01:29:41.980 --> 01:29:51.100
and have it running to be able to connect back to it. Right? So it's not like Yeah. Yeah. Central service, you could you with an API, which you can just plug into and use.
1265
01:29:51.580 --> 01:29:58.000
1266
01:29:58.475 --> 01:30:05.455
1267
01:30:06.235 --> 01:30:13.210
with your, you know, significant amount of your of your savings or your, like, months of salary and stuff like that, you know, you shouldn't put it into a custody or
1268
01:30:13.910 --> 01:30:14.410
coinjoin
1269
01:30:15.025 --> 01:30:27.900
or not even, like, you know, any custody mixer. There's been just a post by Bitcoin q and a about him being approached by by someone who's has lost his money using a website, which I won't,
1270
01:30:28.280 --> 01:30:31.020
you know, say here, but this is an obvious scam,
1271
01:30:34.795 --> 01:30:35.855
advertised to be
1272
01:30:36.155 --> 01:30:45.770
a customer mix. So so that's a huge no or no. Right? So you would only use your own nose, and that's you'd need to have it running. And then
1273
01:30:46.230 --> 01:30:47.369
do you then need
1274
01:30:48.389 --> 01:30:49.369
a remote control?
1275
01:30:51.255 --> 01:30:55.115
1276
01:30:55.495 --> 01:31:00.930
at the same time, that's the ultimate. It's it's definitely worth pursuing and and definitely worth trying to get some people,
1277
01:31:01.650 --> 01:31:03.350
trying to make it all one comprehensive,
1278
01:31:04.050 --> 01:31:14.685
experience on the go. So let's see. And, you know, it looks like people are willing to put up money towards it. I got another freak on top of the original one in my DM saying they're good for another 1000000 stats.
1279
01:31:15.520 --> 01:31:18.100
1280
01:31:22.825 --> 01:31:23.565
1281
01:31:23.865 --> 01:31:25.085
mean, if you,
1282
01:31:27.385 --> 01:31:29.405
I mean, it was only for people who don't want,
1283
01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:33.860
you know, people you send money to to know every damn thing. You know? I mean,
1284
01:31:34.720 --> 01:31:37.380
we gotta be open about it with an transparent ledger
1285
01:31:38.400 --> 01:31:39.380
without mixing,
1286
01:31:39.785 --> 01:31:41.405
right, and and second layer tools.
1287
01:31:41.945 --> 01:31:43.565
Bitcoin is like the perfect,
1288
01:31:44.265 --> 01:31:44.765
surveillance
1289
01:31:45.225 --> 01:31:45.725
technology.
1290
01:31:46.505 --> 01:31:51.340
So we need to do we need to, a, take advantage, right, that we have that surveillance technology
1291
01:31:51.800 --> 01:31:53.980
to get assurances about Bitcoin supply,
1292
01:31:54.440 --> 01:31:56.780
but also, b, need to counter that
1293
01:31:57.355 --> 01:31:59.695
in our own economic transaction. So
1294
01:32:00.315 --> 01:32:02.735
it's hell of a dichotomy, let me tell you.
1295
01:32:03.595 --> 01:32:06.095
But it's definitely worth fighting for in my opinion.
1296
01:32:07.510 --> 01:32:10.570
1297
01:32:11.110 --> 01:32:13.690
you know, considered safe enough, be useful
1298
01:32:17.485 --> 01:32:27.599
to to do this. Because, obviously, now, what, you know, I mean, what I built at join a box and what is available is, like, you have at the EverQT interface, which is somewhat
1299
01:32:27.980 --> 01:32:28.389
kind of
1300
01:32:31.855 --> 01:32:35.875
yeah, you need Linux to run basically because because on on
1301
01:32:36.335 --> 01:32:36.835
Windows,
1302
01:32:37.295 --> 01:32:43.940
it's just not solved how to how to run your own node and set it up the tour and everything else. It's it's just counterintuitive
1303
01:32:44.400 --> 01:32:50.340
1304
01:32:51.025 --> 01:32:52.565
You know? Yes. It sucks.
1305
01:32:53.105 --> 01:32:56.965
And, you know, macOS is much better in that it's based on FreeBSD,
1306
01:32:57.265 --> 01:32:59.765
but it still phones home, and there's a lot of bloatware.
1307
01:33:00.220 --> 01:33:02.160
But, yeah, you really need FreeBSD
1308
01:33:02.780 --> 01:33:03.600
or Linux.
1309
01:33:04.220 --> 01:33:05.660
But Rodolfo left before my,
1310
01:33:07.180 --> 01:33:17.074
FreeBSD plug. But, yeah, you really need if you're if you're worrying about stuff like your privacy, you really do need a stack that's based on free and open source software.
1311
01:33:18.070 --> 01:33:21.290
60 one zero two is messaging me. He's saying build into Sparrow.
1312
01:33:21.830 --> 01:33:23.290
That would be incredible too.
1313
01:33:23.750 --> 01:33:27.205
Hell, I think these tools should be built in and have compatibility
1314
01:33:28.065 --> 01:33:28.945
with each other,
1315
01:33:29.505 --> 01:33:30.645
as much as possible.
1316
01:33:31.185 --> 01:33:32.465
You know, like, when you talk about,
1317
01:33:33.640 --> 01:33:38.380
having support for this and and say Zeus or something, like, I would also love the ability
1318
01:33:39.160 --> 01:33:45.235
to have your SAMROW PS I mean, b t it's not your PS. B t x pub's to be imported, your XPubs, your YPUBs, everything.
1319
01:33:46.895 --> 01:33:49.155
Same for, you know, calling it from Gold Card.
1320
01:33:49.695 --> 01:33:56.550
And, yeah, I I think a lot of things are gonna be built up to go in that direction. We just need the application protocol interface
1321
01:33:57.090 --> 01:34:00.870
to be able to communicate to it, NAM. So let's see if we can make it happen.
1322
01:34:02.195 --> 01:34:10.695
1323
01:34:11.380 --> 01:34:18.120
And he seems to Great. Let's bring it back, Chaz. Let's bring it back. Sure. So I was I was talking to Fiat Jaffe,
1324
01:34:19.335 --> 01:34:21.755
and he seems to Love that guy. What's up?
1325
01:34:23.175 --> 01:34:31.270
1326
01:34:32.210 --> 01:34:40.554
1327
01:34:41.070 --> 01:34:44.130
distinction there but like he was talking about using,
1328
01:34:44.750 --> 01:34:45.250
lightning,
1329
01:34:46.190 --> 01:34:52.895
on liquid with Bitcoin lightning basically using a bridge And he was talking about that if it was set up correctly,
1330
01:34:53.515 --> 01:34:56.735
that you'd be able to route between the two networks.
1331
01:34:57.409 --> 01:35:00.550
So the thought that I wanna throw out there is, you know,
1332
01:35:00.929 --> 01:35:11.305
that the way, you know, the way that it makes sense to onboard to Lightning right now might be both on chain or directly over Lightning via, you know, someone else providing that liquidity.
1333
01:35:12.840 --> 01:35:19.020
But in the future, you might be onboarding to the Bitcoin lightning network via liquid lightning.
1334
01:35:19.560 --> 01:35:21.340
Just a random ass slot here.
1335
01:35:23.195 --> 01:35:30.175
1336
01:35:30.475 --> 01:35:31.035
through these
1337
01:35:31.890 --> 01:35:35.510
basically, we'd pick out the lightning, which is, I mean, much more
1338
01:35:35.810 --> 01:35:37.750
much less traceable within,
1339
01:35:38.290 --> 01:35:39.030
our chain.
1340
01:35:40.435 --> 01:35:44.695
1341
01:35:45.475 --> 01:35:47.110
potentially advertising, like,
1342
01:35:47.909 --> 01:35:55.945
you know, there there are liquid lightning routes too and saying, okay. Yeah. I'm good for it. I I will accept your liquid lightning SaaS. They're, you know,
1343
01:35:56.885 --> 01:36:00.264
as good in my eyes, or or maybe you have some sort of weird
1344
01:36:00.885 --> 01:36:07.680
ratio at which you'll accept them. But, yeah, things are gonna become a lot more dynamic on that front, and things are gonna get
1345
01:36:08.300 --> 01:36:09.900
quite interesting with those,
1346
01:36:10.605 --> 01:36:14.465
sort of cross side chain swaps as far as ln stuff goes. So,
1347
01:36:15.165 --> 01:36:20.145
you know, obviously, a colossal has to be built out, but, I definitely see the potential for
1348
01:36:20.670 --> 01:36:23.250
that being a pretty dynamic ecosystem.
1349
01:36:24.429 --> 01:36:27.570
1350
01:36:28.635 --> 01:36:29.135
charge
1351
01:36:29.514 --> 01:36:30.014
large
1352
01:36:30.474 --> 01:36:38.560
1353
01:36:39.179 --> 01:36:42.239
as like, if you're going from lightning to liquid lightning, you say, okay.
1354
01:36:42.540 --> 01:36:46.324
I I'm I wanna do the swap because it's gonna cost me to pig out.
1355
01:36:46.625 --> 01:36:48.324
So my fees are higher. Yeah. Yeah.
1356
01:36:50.065 --> 01:36:53.525
1357
01:36:54.710 --> 01:36:56.730
1358
01:36:57.429 --> 01:37:05.945
Uh-oh. Let's see. I think we just lost him there. Sorry, guys. We've seen that sometimes Can you guys hear me now? Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yes. No. You're back.
1359
01:37:06.485 --> 01:37:07.385
Okay. Yeah.
1360
01:37:07.925 --> 01:37:12.989
Sorry, guys. We seem to have some technical issues. It's not quite as smooth an experience
1361
01:37:13.290 --> 01:37:14.030
just connecting,
1362
01:37:14.570 --> 01:37:17.070
through our traditional channels for sit down dispatch.
1363
01:37:17.770 --> 01:37:19.230
But, still really
1364
01:37:19.695 --> 01:37:23.555
appreciate chatting with you guys all on this format. It's it's been so much fun.
1365
01:37:24.175 --> 01:37:31.360
But, yeah, there's definitely gonna be I mean, I think we're just scratching the surface with the stuff. Like, lightning is just starting to really get used now,
1366
01:37:31.740 --> 01:37:35.040
and hardly anyone uses liquid right now. Right? So,
1367
01:37:36.085 --> 01:37:39.864
over the next, let's say, 4 years are gonna be really interesting to figure out,
1368
01:37:41.205 --> 01:37:43.304
you know, all the use cases for them and,
1369
01:37:44.070 --> 01:37:45.050
you know, the interoperability
1370
01:37:45.750 --> 01:37:46.889
between them. So
1371
01:37:47.590 --> 01:37:48.090
So
1372
01:37:48.630 --> 01:37:51.130
A lot of a lot of exciting stuff on l 2.
1373
01:37:52.869 --> 01:37:54.010
Yeah. Go ahead, Nams.
1374
01:37:54.935 --> 01:37:55.675
1375
01:37:56.055 --> 01:38:02.555
I'm not sure. Just tell me if you don't hear me well. So that, it would be very interesting that, people would,
1376
01:38:06.230 --> 01:38:14.495
which direction it would be. But I was I was just thinking that how funny it would be that you would have have very cheap kind of on chain transactions on liquid, but then
1377
01:38:14.875 --> 01:38:18.735
the Lightning Network on liquid would be so expensive because
1378
01:38:19.114 --> 01:38:19.855
you just
1379
01:38:21.840 --> 01:38:23.940
charge to provide that service
1380
01:38:25.600 --> 01:38:26.740
by values.
1381
01:38:28.240 --> 01:38:32.295
And, you know, it would be the complete opposite of what happens on
1382
01:38:33.235 --> 01:38:33.975
on Bitcoin.
1383
01:38:37.680 --> 01:38:42.660
But the, yeah, the the flow of funds would be that, obviously, they would be moving
1384
01:38:43.280 --> 01:38:43.780
in
1385
01:38:44.175 --> 01:38:51.315
liquid on chain, and then they would move out through lightning. So, yes, you could, charge the aisle routing fees.
1386
01:38:52.500 --> 01:38:55.880
And, you know, people would get privacy in this direction.
1387
01:39:00.175 --> 01:39:04.995
1388
01:39:05.615 --> 01:39:11.540
are routing across multiple Lightning Networks. Like, I don't necessarily wanna get into the subject of shitcoins here.
1389
01:39:11.920 --> 01:39:18.100
I'm, you know, on a shaky ground with, liquid, I'm sure, with some people, but
1390
01:39:19.755 --> 01:39:29.710
I I still see, you know, block space on Bitcoin being insanely valuable at one point, and so you're gonna have all kinds of different entry points.
1391
01:39:30.090 --> 01:39:34.110
So you might have an entry point on Shitcoins, Lightning Network,
1392
01:39:35.204 --> 01:39:39.704
as well. We don't I don't I'm not aware of any other Lightning Network because that's even,
1393
01:39:40.164 --> 01:39:42.985
you know, half as relevant as Bitcoin's. Lightning's,
1394
01:39:43.330 --> 01:39:46.150
or I'm sorry, Litecoin's Lightning Network has, like, $30,000
1395
01:39:46.690 --> 01:39:50.390
on it compared to Bitcoin's, like, 50,000,000 or 60,000,000.
1396
01:39:51.495 --> 01:39:54.215
1397
01:39:54.775 --> 01:39:58.475
Someone for Zeus on some shitcoin called Grosso coin.
1398
01:39:59.210 --> 01:40:05.949
And, yeah, it's just floating up, I think, on the iOS app store. So they I guess they got one. I I really don't know how much capital is up on there.
1399
01:40:06.385 --> 01:40:08.805
But, Chaz, I think to answer your question about, like, interoperability
1400
01:40:09.185 --> 01:40:09.925
between them,
1401
01:40:10.785 --> 01:40:13.525
you know, beyond thinking about something like RGB
1402
01:40:14.065 --> 01:40:14.565
on
1403
01:40:15.270 --> 01:40:17.770
lightning and, Omnibolt or whatever,
1404
01:40:19.350 --> 01:40:28.705
the interoperability works because at the end of the day, we're talking about the same units. Right? Like, a liquid sat and a lightning sat are pretty much, you know, supposed to be the the same value.
1405
01:40:29.244 --> 01:40:35.010
So when you're adding, like, other units in, like, a light coin sat, like, then things get hairy and,
1406
01:40:36.030 --> 01:40:39.650
you know, what do your channels even mean at that point? It gets complicated.
1407
01:40:40.335 --> 01:40:45.635
1408
01:40:46.255 --> 01:40:51.370
If we're just to stay within maybe just liquid and lightning and maybe some, you know, theoretical
1409
01:40:51.750 --> 01:40:55.770
blind state chains that would come after we get any printout and l 2,
1410
01:40:57.015 --> 01:41:02.475
Like, I I just see that you're gonna have some nerd sitting here with the Raspberry Pi making
1411
01:41:02.855 --> 01:41:05.355
all kinds of money doing these kind of,
1412
01:41:06.160 --> 01:41:12.980
providing liquidity in different ways for different privacy services for your joint markets, for your lightning networks, for your liquid
1413
01:41:13.440 --> 01:41:13.940
routing.
1414
01:41:14.315 --> 01:41:19.675
Like, what other fancy sci fi shit are we you know, can we think of here? Their thumbs in all these different
1415
01:41:20.554 --> 01:41:25.220
1416
01:41:25.680 --> 01:41:30.660
that have their thumbs in all these different pools or whatever. They have the liquidity going all these different ways,
1417
01:41:31.045 --> 01:41:36.025
And they're just a router. They're just an operator at the end of the table, you know, like,
1418
01:41:36.804 --> 01:41:41.699
like, similar to a phone operator, and they're just making sure your stats get from one destination
1419
01:41:42.239 --> 01:41:46.099
to the other. And, you know, that could be their whole career, just facilitating
1420
01:41:46.400 --> 01:41:47.060
that liquidity,
1421
01:41:48.515 --> 01:41:50.935
from one place to another for a party.
1422
01:41:51.795 --> 01:41:54.135
All sorts of swaps, all sorts of,
1423
01:41:54.680 --> 01:41:56.140
you know, coin joints.
1424
01:41:57.960 --> 01:42:00.780
I don't know. It could get really interesting, really.
1425
01:42:02.375 --> 01:42:04.554
1426
01:42:05.815 --> 01:42:13.909
just up her backup here just to kinda maybe hear his thoughts on, you know, throwing liquid into the mix and how it would make his life a living hell maybe.
1427
01:42:14.449 --> 01:42:18.550
1428
01:42:22.315 --> 01:42:26.574
Yeah. I mean, that that would be great if we could get Justin for up here. He wants. Let's see. Hold up.
1429
01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:30.330
Yeah. No pressure, bro. Just to make sure we're still recording.
1430
01:42:34.070 --> 01:42:37.534
We'll give him a second. I I wanna make a correction from earlier.
1431
01:42:39.275 --> 01:42:41.215
I was calling Amboss
1432
01:42:41.675 --> 01:42:42.175
Ambos,
1433
01:42:43.030 --> 01:42:44.410
but it is pronounced
1434
01:42:44.790 --> 01:42:45.770
Am Bos.
1435
01:42:46.710 --> 01:42:51.415
So that's just the first lightning network graph explorer. You should all check it out.
1436
01:42:52.615 --> 01:42:57.435
If you're into UI or messing with these lightning back ends, you should definitely get involved with that project.
1437
01:42:58.455 --> 01:43:05.830
It definitely has a lot of potential, and I've been finding myself using it a bunch. Looks really nice. Gonna join us, Jennifer? Oh, well. That's fine.
1438
01:43:06.610 --> 01:43:07.110
1439
01:43:07.555 --> 01:43:08.855
something kind of
1440
01:43:10.595 --> 01:43:13.815
1441
01:43:14.595 --> 01:43:15.095
1442
01:43:15.650 --> 01:43:25.165
1443
01:43:25.625 --> 01:43:27.725
Bitcoin's ecosystem is just slow,
1444
01:43:28.265 --> 01:43:30.445
to roll out updates and things is,
1445
01:43:31.065 --> 01:43:31.565
Taproot
1446
01:43:31.865 --> 01:43:33.005
oh oh, Jessica,
1447
01:43:33.780 --> 01:43:37.400
before I go too far. Were you gonna what would you would you wanna comment? Oh, there he is.
1448
01:43:38.659 --> 01:43:44.825
1449
01:43:45.605 --> 01:43:47.385
But I missed the question. Sorry.
1450
01:43:48.725 --> 01:43:50.745
1451
01:43:51.125 --> 01:43:51.785
you know,
1452
01:43:52.160 --> 01:43:56.020
you're a lightning node operator at the moment. You know?
1453
01:43:56.400 --> 01:44:01.140
Do you do you like or hate the idea of potentially adding liquid into the mix
1454
01:44:01.695 --> 01:44:03.315
and, you know, expanding
1455
01:44:03.695 --> 01:44:12.600
1456
01:44:13.060 --> 01:44:13.560
And,
1457
01:44:14.100 --> 01:44:17.160
like, in in some of the in some of the, like, the arbitrage
1458
01:44:18.155 --> 01:44:20.014
things that you might do as
1459
01:44:20.474 --> 01:44:25.215
a a router where basically you're sending it to yourself through complicated means,
1460
01:44:25.630 --> 01:44:27.090
but but you end up trusting,
1461
01:44:28.030 --> 01:44:30.130
some some custodial entities.
1462
01:44:31.070 --> 01:44:31.570
And,
1463
01:44:31.870 --> 01:44:32.770
like, as,
1464
01:44:34.985 --> 01:44:42.364
so so for me, for example, I'll I'll deposit funds into a Bitfinex account because it's, you know, 0 k y c.
1465
01:44:43.910 --> 01:44:44.410
But,
1466
01:44:45.830 --> 01:44:48.410
I it only works at scale. So
1467
01:44:48.790 --> 01:44:50.250
I end up having to deposit
1468
01:44:50.790 --> 01:44:53.290
lots into there and sometimes I run out of liquidity.
1469
01:44:53.995 --> 01:44:56.255
So as an intermediate step,
1470
01:44:56.955 --> 01:44:58.015
involving liquid
1471
01:44:59.195 --> 01:45:00.175
in that step
1472
01:45:00.555 --> 01:45:04.270
is is pretty exciting where I could trust, you know, the
1473
01:45:04.730 --> 01:45:09.710
the the entire federation instead of just one singular entity.
1474
01:45:10.890 --> 01:45:13.585
So so that's it. It already makes
1475
01:45:13.965 --> 01:45:15.344
a kind of a a natural
1476
01:45:15.724 --> 01:45:16.704
marriage there,
1477
01:45:17.005 --> 01:45:18.784
but then also from
1478
01:45:19.100 --> 01:45:24.000
some of the privacy tools that are available on liquid, it I think it makes total sense.
1479
01:45:24.460 --> 01:45:28.735
I'm pretty excited. I mean, as far as Amboss' like business case for that,
1480
01:45:29.455 --> 01:45:33.875
just being able to, like, kind of coordinate the different market participants,
1481
01:45:35.135 --> 01:45:38.114
like, that's a that's a huge business case for us. So
1482
01:45:39.260 --> 01:45:40.480
pretty excited about,
1483
01:45:41.260 --> 01:45:42.240
the other integrations,
1484
01:45:43.900 --> 01:45:45.920
whether it be liquid or,
1485
01:45:46.380 --> 01:45:47.600
other lightning protocols.
1486
01:45:51.685 --> 01:45:54.245
1487
01:45:55.125 --> 01:45:57.865
state chain blind state chain signer?
1488
01:45:58.270 --> 01:46:02.210
Or maybe a, better question would be, do you see yourself kind of
1489
01:46:03.150 --> 01:46:04.929
or people in general, maybe just
1490
01:46:05.555 --> 01:46:08.935
individuals offering these kind of services to people,
1491
01:46:09.395 --> 01:46:14.490
you know, maybe a business or maybe just an individual being altruistic kind of thing. I got
1492
01:46:15.190 --> 01:46:15.690
1493
01:46:16.390 --> 01:46:19.190
Yeah. I mean, this is kind of an open market. So,
1494
01:46:19.670 --> 01:46:21.050
yeah. Why why not?
1495
01:46:22.625 --> 01:46:29.365
Get them all participating and, you know, see what see what shakes out and what's, what's sustainable. Oh, I got 6102
1496
01:46:30.065 --> 01:46:31.365
in my DM saying,
1497
01:46:32.930 --> 01:46:37.430
no privacy tools other than, confidential transactions, it sounds like,
1498
01:46:38.450 --> 01:46:39.430
on on Liquid.
1499
01:46:41.045 --> 01:46:55.360
1500
01:46:56.905 --> 01:46:59.945
And then 6102 also hit me up talking about,
1501
01:47:00.345 --> 01:47:04.490
going from liquid lightning to Bitcoin lightning and how it would be a swap. And,
1502
01:47:06.150 --> 01:47:07.610
someone needs to
1503
01:47:09.110 --> 01:47:13.610
be making on chain Bitcoin transactions to keep those channels balanced. So I guess that goes into,
1504
01:47:15.385 --> 01:47:23.244
you know, different roles that people would have to could play in terms of, you know, being connected to these different networks and providing services to get
1505
01:47:25.750 --> 01:47:27.849
to get SaaS from one place to another.
1506
01:47:30.605 --> 01:47:33.265
And he says, yeah. It's not it's not one to 1
1507
01:47:33.844 --> 01:47:34.344
on,
1508
01:47:35.165 --> 01:47:42.150
lightning sat versus liquid sat because you have to take into account the cost to peg out. So perhaps when you're doing a routing transaction,
1509
01:47:43.650 --> 01:47:44.150
for
1510
01:47:44.850 --> 01:47:47.510
going from one place to another and and you're crossing
1511
01:47:49.864 --> 01:47:51.244
from Bitcoin on lightning
1512
01:47:51.625 --> 01:47:54.605
to liquid or vice versa, you have to take into account,
1513
01:47:56.264 --> 01:48:00.580
you know, the cost to get there. So, at at Ensign, so it's economically,
1514
01:48:01.040 --> 01:48:06.625
viable to you. So there's gonna be a lot of different so yeah. Great great great point, 6102.
1515
01:48:07.565 --> 01:48:10.784
But, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of interesting different markets that arise
1516
01:48:11.244 --> 01:48:19.350
around these use cases for people who are, you know, got their funds in one form and need to get it somewhere else and another. So it's gonna be really interesting.
1517
01:48:23.585 --> 01:48:36.940
I I guess a big challenge in it is, like, broadcasting, like, how what your rates are and how to get it there and then facilitating that in the first place. I think that's that's what's really being built out right now. I think it's starting, like, right now with,
1518
01:48:37.800 --> 01:48:41.195
say, like, liquidity on lightning with stuff like Ellen Pool
1519
01:48:41.655 --> 01:48:48.315
and, say, the broadcasting of, like, getting liquidity that they're working on over at c lightning that was was talking about on
1520
01:48:49.110 --> 01:48:50.810
our lightning Friday session.
1521
01:48:52.870 --> 01:48:58.490
So, yeah, it's just about, like, how how are those mechanisms work and then these transfers are facilitated and how
1522
01:48:58.875 --> 01:49:00.975
these market makers advertise
1523
01:49:01.995 --> 01:49:04.475
their rates at at which they're willing to perform these,
1524
01:49:05.595 --> 01:49:06.735
liquidity functions.
1525
01:49:07.195 --> 01:49:11.099
So, yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to see these things develop over the next couple of years.
1526
01:49:11.420 --> 01:49:18.215
1527
01:49:18.594 --> 01:49:19.495
as they get,
1528
01:49:19.955 --> 01:49:24.455
as the different participants get more information about, what the market is.
1529
01:49:25.730 --> 01:49:26.949
Because I know we got,
1530
01:49:27.489 --> 01:49:30.070
likes, you know, seed lightning liquidity ads.
1531
01:49:30.530 --> 01:49:31.030
That's
1532
01:49:31.409 --> 01:49:32.790
that's, like, around the corner,
1533
01:49:33.165 --> 01:49:37.185
but but then there's also, like, the pool auction results,
1534
01:49:38.205 --> 01:49:39.585
and and kind of,
1535
01:49:40.125 --> 01:49:44.610
comparing that to, like, where the mempool is at. So so there's all these different,
1536
01:49:45.730 --> 01:49:46.550
kind of, like,
1537
01:49:47.890 --> 01:49:48.710
market forces,
1538
01:49:49.490 --> 01:49:52.744
all these tools being developed, and then and then there's,
1539
01:49:53.065 --> 01:49:54.844
there's the mempool, which
1540
01:49:55.224 --> 01:50:09.494
is gonna kinda determine some of the pricing. I'm I'm curious how, like, channel stability is go going to play in there if if people are ending up with, with force closes and such. And I'm not sure how that how that's going to work between,
1541
01:50:09.875 --> 01:50:10.934
Lightning and Liquid
1542
01:50:12.434 --> 01:50:13.315
becoming more,
1543
01:50:13.715 --> 01:50:14.215
married.
1544
01:50:15.310 --> 01:50:19.170
1545
01:50:19.630 --> 01:50:23.810
Like BOS scores, they have some ranking for, like, uptime or reliability,
1546
01:50:24.205 --> 01:50:27.745
right, as well as the quality of your liquidity and the amounts of it.
1547
01:50:28.205 --> 01:50:32.545
And, you know, it's really hard to sort of quantify the value of those things.
1548
01:50:33.030 --> 01:50:44.224
So these different algorithms sort of calculating it. I I think there needs to be a couple more, competing ones before we find that sweet spot. It's all sort of experimental right now. I know some people who've,
1549
01:50:44.945 --> 01:50:48.485
you know, may have been messing around with their BOS scores. Maybe they're in lightning,
1550
01:50:48.864 --> 01:50:49.364
terminal,
1551
01:50:49.830 --> 01:50:51.590
and they see it fluctuate a lot.
1552
01:50:52.790 --> 01:51:07.265
You know, this is really the frontier of things. We're figuring out everything right now. You know? Like, exchanges don't for the most part other than, like, Bitfinex and Okay Coin. Like, they don't have lightning yet. Right? Hardly anyone is using liquid.
1553
01:51:07.679 --> 01:51:11.619
So we need to go through, like, these price discovery phases and,
1554
01:51:11.920 --> 01:51:14.239
you know, figuring out which of these properties,
1555
01:51:15.595 --> 01:51:25.660
bring more value to the table as far as, like, your uptime and, you know, your history of channel closes and and all these things. And these reputation systems do need to build out right now.
1556
01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:29.900
It's it's pretty interesting and pretty awesome just
1557
01:51:30.895 --> 01:51:39.620
seeing it all be made from scratch. These are things that, like, weren't around I think it was lots of like, year and a half ago. Like, even even 2 years ago, it was just really when lightning started getting
1558
01:51:40.100 --> 01:51:44.520
1559
01:51:45.620 --> 01:51:47.540
And Yeah. Totally. I the
1560
01:51:48.185 --> 01:51:52.045
all those the scores, I think there's lots of focus on the BOS score.
1561
01:51:52.505 --> 01:52:00.100
But I I view it kind of just like the your SAT scores or, your GPA. Like, it's not gonna follow you around forever.
1562
01:52:01.120 --> 01:52:05.594
And and maybe that's not the best metric to determine whether you're, like, a valuable,
1563
01:52:06.055 --> 01:52:07.755
you know, human being or not.
1564
01:52:08.535 --> 01:52:14.639
It's, it's it's just one score. It's just an opaque score, and there will be many, many more.
1565
01:52:15.900 --> 01:52:24.345
1566
01:52:24.940 --> 01:52:28.159
put it to practice and see how it pans out in the market and see if these
1567
01:52:28.540 --> 01:52:31.360
scores actually end up being of value. So
1568
01:52:32.295 --> 01:52:39.195
here's the time, and this is the time to experiment and figure out what works, what doesn't, what has value, and what what doesn't. So it's really exciting.
1569
01:52:42.990 --> 01:52:45.170
1570
01:52:46.765 --> 01:52:54.545
No. Go ahead, Chaz. Go for it. How much of a pain in the ass and how long is it going to fucking take to get Taproot,
1571
01:52:55.510 --> 01:52:58.090
widely adopted was gonna be my question.
1572
01:52:59.190 --> 01:53:04.275
1573
01:53:04.895 --> 01:53:05.395
like,
1574
01:53:06.895 --> 01:53:07.295
hopefully
1575
01:53:07.935 --> 01:53:08.435
Oh,
1576
01:53:10.015 --> 01:53:12.114
like like blockchain. Right? Blockchain.com.
1577
01:53:14.800 --> 01:53:19.940
Yeah. This this has been really a tooth pulling for the SegWit stuff to be adapted widely.
1578
01:53:21.605 --> 01:53:31.199
Hopefully, it doesn't take more than a year or 2 this time around to see the Taproot stuff really be taken into account. But the same time, it also has, like, much different use cases.
1579
01:53:31.820 --> 01:53:33.280
Whereas something like
1580
01:53:34.860 --> 01:53:38.895
Segwit, native Segwit, they pretty much cut down on costs all around.
1581
01:53:39.275 --> 01:53:43.455
It's not necessarily the case for these new tap reader addresses. Like, I believe
1582
01:53:44.130 --> 01:53:45.190
it's more expensive
1583
01:53:45.490 --> 01:53:47.910
to send to them, but it's then cheaper to receive.
1584
01:53:48.610 --> 01:53:50.870
So people really need to figure out the dynamics
1585
01:53:51.330 --> 01:53:53.350
around that as well. But,
1586
01:53:54.635 --> 01:54:01.534
I I feel as exchanges are, like, using stuff on 2nd layers, like lightning specifically,
1587
01:54:02.020 --> 01:54:04.360
in which Taproot is gonna provide them a lot of privacy,
1588
01:54:05.380 --> 01:54:09.080
you know, not leak out that information to their competitors and whatnot.
1589
01:54:09.460 --> 01:54:12.554
I think then when when there's these economic incentives,
1590
01:54:13.494 --> 01:54:18.554
for the actors themselves to be using them, then that helps facilitate things a lot more.
1591
01:54:19.260 --> 01:54:27.680
But also, you know, the the powerhouses in the space right now, I think they're more conscious of it. They're listening to their users more than say, like,
1592
01:54:28.675 --> 01:54:29.175
blockchain.com.
1593
01:54:29.635 --> 01:54:30.135
Right?
1594
01:54:32.195 --> 01:54:34.535
And, you know, there's always gonna be stranglers.
1595
01:54:35.235 --> 01:54:35.735
Right?
1596
01:54:36.520 --> 01:54:37.639
There's always gonna be someone
1597
01:54:38.199 --> 01:54:41.980
some business that, you know, it doesn't make sense for them,
1598
01:54:42.360 --> 01:54:43.900
as far as engineering resources.
1599
01:54:44.415 --> 01:54:47.795
But I definitely feel that this time around, it's gonna be much better off.
1600
01:54:49.215 --> 01:54:51.830
1601
01:54:52.230 --> 01:54:57.690
the ones with actual benefits. So the ones providing service, the vaults, the multisix services,
1602
01:54:59.875 --> 01:55:03.015
etcetera. Probably, lightning, hopefully, will be not
1603
01:55:04.595 --> 01:55:09.175
too far behind. And then once you get a good amount of
1604
01:55:09.860 --> 01:55:10.360
adoption,
1605
01:55:11.380 --> 01:55:21.645
then you have the privacy services coming on board as well because they would need the anonymity set. They cannot be first. So then you can think of, like, you know, joint market adopting, hopefully,
1606
01:55:22.585 --> 01:55:24.525
hopefully, some ride up thing. Hopefully,
1607
01:55:25.080 --> 01:55:25.820
you know,
1608
01:55:26.280 --> 01:55:26.780
Wasabi,
1609
01:55:27.480 --> 01:55:29.580
probably, they have, like, their Wasabi
1610
01:55:29.960 --> 01:55:30.860
thing coming,
1611
01:55:31.719 --> 01:55:32.460
by then.
1612
01:55:33.320 --> 01:55:34.060
And then
1613
01:55:35.245 --> 01:55:35.745
then,
1614
01:55:36.125 --> 01:55:38.785
you know, you will have a good chunk already.
1615
01:55:44.670 --> 01:55:45.170
1616
01:55:46.430 --> 01:55:53.410
Definitely. It's definitely gonna be the lightning people who, you know, they're the ones who stand to benefit the most from the privacy gains.
1617
01:55:54.575 --> 01:55:58.515
So definitely are gonna see it on the implementations like LND and c lightning,
1618
01:55:59.615 --> 01:56:02.800
before a lot of these other services. So absolutely.
1619
01:56:13.295 --> 01:56:17.475
Oh, man. We're coming up on 2 hours, folks. I think we're gonna call it soon. Yeah.
1620
01:56:18.815 --> 01:56:19.295
Yeah. I want
1621
01:56:20.520 --> 01:56:25.500
1622
01:56:26.599 --> 01:56:28.139
amongst amongst many,
1623
01:56:28.675 --> 01:56:30.615
which is the lightning the liquidity
1624
01:56:31.235 --> 01:56:34.215
increasing, you know, in the past couple
1625
01:56:34.515 --> 01:56:37.495
of weeks, months, maybe. Hell, hell, yeah.
1626
01:56:38.600 --> 01:56:44.460
1627
01:56:44.845 --> 01:56:53.889
Like, that's that's why I'm in good spirits, folks. The the regular price doesn't really concern me as much. As long as that lightning liquidity is going up into the right, I'm a happy man.
1628
01:56:55.550 --> 01:56:58.050
1629
01:56:58.670 --> 01:57:00.909
1630
01:57:01.835 --> 01:57:12.239
what percent do you think is in private channels? Like, at least another 30%, I would say. Maybe maybe I'm I'm bullish on private channels there. But No. Yeah. At least 20%.
1631
01:57:12.540 --> 01:57:13.040
Right?
1632
01:57:14.060 --> 01:57:16.880
1633
01:57:18.300 --> 01:57:18.800
stake
1634
01:57:19.435 --> 01:57:20.094
of 30%
1635
01:57:20.395 --> 01:57:23.135
being in private channels of the public capacity
1636
01:57:23.435 --> 01:57:26.815
because that was in, like, you know, 20
1637
01:57:27.360 --> 01:57:29.620
18, was it, when they when the research
1638
01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:34.020
have done this kind of, analysis, and they've come out with this
1639
01:57:34.320 --> 01:57:35.380
very rough estimate?
1640
01:57:36.335 --> 01:57:47.800
Because you can't really tell if the if the private channels were closed in a cooperative way. You know? It it's it's actually not that not that straightforward to filter them filter all of them out.
1641
01:57:49.060 --> 01:57:49.300
But,
1642
01:57:51.540 --> 01:57:58.375
now, you know, you have plenty of services which are known to use large private networks. So, you know,
1643
01:57:58.915 --> 01:58:18.115
there might be exchanges, but we certainly know about, like, strike. We, which is, you know, must be, like, a significant participant of the network. And I wouldn't be surprised if it would be, you know, comparable to something like like Alan Big. I mean, okay. Maybe not, but, you know, there there is there is plenty of things which
1644
01:58:19.780 --> 01:58:34.344
which do work like that and other like, other service providers, like all the all the custody of wallets, all the all the kind of, you know, lightning gaming and, you know, such things. So to be able to have the buffer of liquidity
1645
01:58:35.364 --> 01:58:36.985
in case of, like, big
1646
01:58:37.469 --> 01:58:38.530
peaks of usage,
1647
01:58:38.830 --> 01:58:39.330
then
1648
01:58:39.710 --> 01:58:41.250
you must have private channels
1649
01:58:42.909 --> 01:58:43.409
already
1650
01:58:44.030 --> 01:58:47.705
and armed. Right? And that might be even
1651
01:58:48.245 --> 01:58:48.745
higher
1652
01:58:49.365 --> 01:58:56.320
for things. And for, like, for example, Stripe for sure, but for, like, other services as well, it might be higher,
1653
01:58:58.160 --> 01:58:59.460
than the public capacity.
1654
01:58:59.840 --> 01:59:01.140
Just think of, like, services
1655
01:59:01.600 --> 01:59:02.420
running with
1656
01:59:02.775 --> 01:59:09.915
multiple nodes. You know, they they probably because there is no risk to them. Right? It's a 2 of 2 of 2 of their keys.
1657
01:59:10.640 --> 01:59:12.580
There's no risk to put, you know,
1658
01:59:13.280 --> 01:59:15.780
any you know, as much as they can afford,
1659
01:59:16.960 --> 01:59:21.475
into those private channels to have it just available anytime they need it.
1660
01:59:22.335 --> 01:59:33.545
1661
01:59:33.925 --> 01:59:36.905
big enterprises, especially where they have, you
1662
01:59:37.205 --> 01:59:42.105
know, crucial relationships with each other, and they have these flows going a certain direction.
1663
01:59:42.500 --> 01:59:44.840
They're definitely gonna have private channels.
1664
01:59:45.300 --> 01:59:51.560
And they're gonna have these channels and not wanna broadcast them because they want liquidity in that direction for those crucial,
1665
01:59:52.915 --> 01:59:58.375
enterprise functions. Right? And they don't want other people just taking advantage of them for their own economic,
1666
01:59:59.395 --> 02:00:04.380
needs. Right? So they're gonna keep them private. They're gonna keep them between their counterparty and themselves.
1667
02:00:05.080 --> 02:00:09.935
And they're gonna use it to settle their, you know, pretty much their scheduled transactions
1668
02:00:10.795 --> 02:00:16.015
and be able to save on fees because they only have to commit to the on chain fee ahead of time,
1669
02:00:17.240 --> 02:00:23.740
and on close. And, you know, if if it's a multitude of transactions, you know, 10, 25, 50 transactions,
1670
02:00:24.395 --> 02:00:25.934
saving so much money. So,
1671
02:00:26.554 --> 02:00:33.855
Yeah. I definitely think a lot of the private channels are not gonna be just users, trying to, you know, use Lightning more privately.
1672
02:00:34.320 --> 02:00:39.220
But, actually, there's big enterprises that wanna have these liquidity channels with their partners,
1673
02:00:40.400 --> 02:00:44.645
but they don't want people to just be using them willy nilly. Or, you know,
1674
02:00:45.025 --> 02:00:46.405
alternatively, they can just
1675
02:00:46.785 --> 02:00:51.364
broadcast higher fees so people don't use them. Like, maybe it's economically feasible
1676
02:00:52.150 --> 02:01:07.835
for other people to be using those channels as well as they're willing to pay the routing fee on it. But I think in a lot of cases, people will just wanna, like, not even disclose that relationship to the rest of the world and be like, okay. Our tree animal between each other each other, or it's just gonna stay private.
1677
02:01:08.620 --> 02:01:10.239
So I think that's a great point.
1678
02:01:11.020 --> 02:01:18.365
1679
02:01:18.845 --> 02:01:21.825
But but, I mean, their public capacity is, like,
1680
02:01:22.205 --> 02:01:32.440
what like, even some of them, like, lower than, like, lower than a Bitcoin. You know? It's, like, 1a half maybe. But, you know, you can imagine that they have, like, 10,000 users. Right? So,
1681
02:01:33.700 --> 02:01:35.400
there must be a lot of
1682
02:01:36.335 --> 02:01:37.474
liquidity behind
1683
02:01:37.855 --> 02:01:38.594
that, which
1684
02:01:38.895 --> 02:01:41.235
makes it, you know, possible to
1685
02:01:41.614 --> 02:01:42.514
work and not,
1686
02:01:42.974 --> 02:01:45.315
you know, not cause payment failures
1687
02:01:45.920 --> 02:01:50.100
when they, you know, people start to withdraw money or they try to try to,
1688
02:01:50.560 --> 02:01:53.620
you know, pay things en masse suddenly.
1689
02:01:54.844 --> 02:01:58.465
So it would be very surprising to me if that would be the true kind of,
1690
02:01:59.324 --> 02:02:04.980
capacity which they have have on there. And and those are just, you know, a couple I've I've was able to spot.
1691
02:02:06.159 --> 02:02:11.860
And there are a lot of things like, you know, the loads of strike, for example, I I think they are not even known to me.
1692
02:02:13.415 --> 02:02:14.955
So there's plenty of that.
1693
02:02:20.810 --> 02:02:22.430
1694
02:02:23.130 --> 02:02:23.790
1695
02:02:24.570 --> 02:02:28.030
1696
02:02:28.565 --> 02:02:32.505
like, excited to see more and more of you guys out on there, opening up channels,
1697
02:02:33.045 --> 02:02:35.065
using it. I know in Miami,
1698
02:02:36.325 --> 02:02:42.300
a good chunk of the transactions I saw with people transacting on lightning instead of on chain.
1699
02:02:43.160 --> 02:02:46.780
Hopefully, next year, all the vendors are accepting it. That would be a nice touch.
1700
02:02:47.275 --> 02:02:55.295
And, yeah, it's it's just gonna continue to to grow. I mean, now we've got a whole bunch more awesome user friendly solutions even for noobs
1701
02:02:55.730 --> 02:02:58.790
in the form of stuff like Moon and and Breeze.
1702
02:02:59.250 --> 02:03:00.550
You know, while the satoshi
1703
02:03:00.930 --> 02:03:05.045
and blue olive have been really big, custodial solutions. But now we have,
1704
02:03:06.005 --> 02:03:10.025
some solutions that are, you know, only somewhat custodial in
1705
02:03:10.645 --> 02:03:12.585
how they do their channel opens. And,
1706
02:03:12.940 --> 02:03:17.119
you know, in the next year, we're gonna see some stuff like Rust Lightning and that LDK
1707
02:03:17.420 --> 02:03:18.960
use way, way more.
1708
02:03:19.420 --> 02:03:27.025
And people are gonna take, channel management into their own hands too. Just a matter of liquidity services coming up, education.
1709
02:03:28.285 --> 02:03:30.305
There's, like, a whole bunch of new UX
1710
02:03:30.880 --> 02:03:34.500
to the lightning network that, you know, a typical Bitcoin user
1711
02:03:35.360 --> 02:03:37.219
might not have been familiar with. So
1712
02:03:37.760 --> 02:03:38.659
a lot of challenges,
1713
02:03:39.304 --> 02:03:41.405
but glad to see them being addressed.
1714
02:03:41.705 --> 02:03:43.085
It's really awesome to see.
1715
02:03:43.784 --> 02:03:47.080
Just based on what we got, like, 1700
1716
02:03:47.540 --> 02:03:53.320
1717
02:03:54.265 --> 02:03:58.445
kind of their, their predictions for how the lightning network will grow.
1718
02:03:59.225 --> 02:04:02.580
Just based on what we got, like, 1700
1719
02:04:02.960 --> 02:04:06.340
Bitcoin on the public lightning network capacity.
1720
02:04:07.520 --> 02:04:10.340
So if, if 10% of the transactions
1721
02:04:10.800 --> 02:04:11.300
on
1722
02:04:11.685 --> 02:04:12.825
main block,
1723
02:04:15.045 --> 02:04:18.905
what type of growth would be effective for the lightning network
1724
02:04:19.525 --> 02:04:20.345
as a whole?
1725
02:04:22.630 --> 02:04:27.690
And the the number that he threw out was about a 100 x growth for, the Lightning Network.
1726
02:04:28.315 --> 02:04:32.015
So but I haven't, gotten to verify that myself.
1727
02:04:33.035 --> 02:04:38.199
1728
02:04:38.739 --> 02:04:41.880
how do you route when there's so many damn hops? And
1729
02:04:42.580 --> 02:04:45.655
are there services that that take over that route calculation?
1730
02:04:47.235 --> 02:04:55.980
What exactly happens there? So it's gonna be interesting to see what scaling problems arise at that point. But Just shy of he has something like a 100 x growth.
1731
02:04:56.700 --> 02:04:57.920
That would be unbelievable.
1732
02:04:58.940 --> 02:05:03.925
And hell, like, we're we're at really low capacity now. Does anyone have offhand have the
1733
02:05:04.705 --> 02:05:07.364
public capacity of the Lightning Network right now? It's
1734
02:05:08.705 --> 02:05:09.505
I'm gonna go to
1735
02:05:10.760 --> 02:05:11.980
oh, sorry. Go ahead.
1736
02:05:12.520 --> 02:05:15.340
I was gonna go to Clark Moody's dashboard. Shouts to Clark.
1737
02:05:15.800 --> 02:05:16.280
Great bit
1738
02:05:17.375 --> 02:05:22.835
1739
02:05:26.290 --> 02:05:28.070
1740
02:05:29.170 --> 02:05:30.450
Yeah. That's only, like
1741
02:05:31.170 --> 02:05:36.435
well, I mean, our price has just created the last 2 months. But, yeah, that's just, 52,000,000.
1742
02:05:36.895 --> 02:05:37.715
Right? Damn.
1743
02:05:40.495 --> 02:05:42.590
Wow. Yeah. Those are rookie numbers.
1744
02:05:43.150 --> 02:05:46.449
Well, let's pump those up. Let's let's get a cool, 5,000,000,000
1745
02:05:46.750 --> 02:05:47.329
on there,
1746
02:05:48.190 --> 02:05:48.690
and
1747
02:05:49.815 --> 02:05:51.034
we'll talk from there.
1748
02:05:51.574 --> 02:05:52.554
1749
02:05:55.655 --> 02:05:58.215
1750
02:05:59.420 --> 02:06:05.740
we're getting pretty close over at Kraken. So now I'm getting to the stage where it's like, okay. Let's let's put some real money on this. So,
1751
02:06:06.715 --> 02:06:09.375
I'm not sure Jesse will say, okay. Here's 5,000,000,000.
1752
02:06:10.315 --> 02:06:15.455
But, you know, if we if we could pump up those those numbers in the right direction, that would be nice.
1753
02:06:21.300 --> 02:06:21.880
Oh, man.
1754
02:06:23.625 --> 02:06:27.005
Guys, honestly, I'm I'm getting beat. It's been a good 2 hours.
1755
02:06:27.545 --> 02:06:31.485
If we bring up anyone else who might have a question real quick and
1756
02:06:32.440 --> 02:06:35.179
we call this our apps in the next 10 or 15 minutes.
1757
02:06:42.205 --> 02:06:42.705
Alright.
1758
02:06:43.244 --> 02:06:48.145
Let's do it. So anyone else, in the room who wants to come up, ask question to anyone,
1759
02:06:48.685 --> 02:06:52.040
feel free. You could send a request over here on spaces.
1760
02:06:54.020 --> 02:06:56.040
If not, then I'm just gonna probably
1761
02:06:56.500 --> 02:06:59.080
have, my buddy, Ty Kawamoto come up and
1762
02:06:59.940 --> 02:07:00.440
tell
1763
02:07:00.875 --> 02:07:02.795
the story with me about how,
1764
02:07:03.755 --> 02:07:06.094
we were dealing with a bonds broker this weekend,
1765
02:07:08.074 --> 02:07:09.535
at our buddy Zach's house.
1766
02:07:10.320 --> 02:07:12.019
It was pretty much 7v1.
1767
02:07:13.280 --> 02:07:14.900
This guy who was a bond broker
1768
02:07:15.440 --> 02:07:16.739
versus, like, pretty
1769
02:07:17.199 --> 02:07:18.099
pretty hardcore
1770
02:07:19.265 --> 02:07:20.645
Bitcoin or 7 of us.
1771
02:07:21.105 --> 02:07:21.505
And,
1772
02:07:21.985 --> 02:07:23.605
yeah, it was it was a bloodbath.
1773
02:07:24.784 --> 02:07:29.600
It was mainly my fault because I was just hammered. I was just off my gourd,
1774
02:07:30.460 --> 02:07:32.320
and I ended up yelling at the guy.
1775
02:07:33.820 --> 02:07:34.320
But
1776
02:07:36.140 --> 02:07:38.155
we we were never gonna flip this guy anyway.
1777
02:07:39.175 --> 02:07:42.795
Hi. Ty, come on. Come up, buddy, for one sec. Come come say hi.
1778
02:07:43.175 --> 02:07:48.120
You know, the freaks loved your dispatch appearance, and and they want as much of you as they could get.
1779
02:07:54.025 --> 02:07:58.765
Ty, come on. It's peer pressure. 3 hours. There we go. What's up, Ty?
1780
02:08:02.400 --> 02:08:10.420
Yeah. That was a crazy weekend, man. I was, we were off on camera. But, yeah, it was kinda crazy because, like, we were, like, what? Like, 3 hours
1781
02:08:10.735 --> 02:08:11.554
into drinking.
1782
02:08:12.175 --> 02:08:15.315
Was that before or after we had all those shots?
1783
02:08:16.974 --> 02:08:17.670
No. No.
1784
02:08:18.230 --> 02:08:32.445
I was just like, oh, man. That was just like a train wreck. We got the shots after. I'm like, okay, guys. I hate the train wreck. We drank so much that the timeline got Yeah. The timeline got a little bit messed up. Yeah. No. He he was like a legit dollar maxi,
1785
02:08:33.385 --> 02:08:39.870
to the point where, like, he was I think at one point, he was, like, defending the military industrial complex, like the petrothalvin.
1786
02:08:40.410 --> 02:08:44.685
He's like, this you you know, the the dollar system is supported
1787
02:08:45.145 --> 02:08:51.085
by, our, our military our glorious military or something like that. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me?
1788
02:08:51.460 --> 02:08:54.680
Like, did that really happen, or am I just making that up?
1789
02:08:55.220 --> 02:09:06.885
Yeah. And he got really defensive about it. You're you were you said in jest, you're like, oh, what a noble cause. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, I didn't say noble. I didn't say noble. This guy's putting words in my mouth. He was, like, jumping from, like, 1 to a 100. Yeah.
1790
02:09:07.665 --> 02:09:08.165
But,
1791
02:09:09.300 --> 02:09:13.560
yeah, it was just the wrong room for a bond broker to to walk into.
1792
02:09:14.660 --> 02:09:17.720
You know, it was a it was a really good crew of us. So we had Pedro,
1793
02:09:18.105 --> 02:09:23.165
the real Pedro, I will say, not the fake Pedro. Not McCormick, Pedro. Like, Pedro, Pedro.
1794
02:09:24.185 --> 02:09:27.165
Yeah. We had a man. We had, the business guy is there.
1795
02:09:27.690 --> 02:09:29.950
Wiz, Steve, and Simon were there.
1796
02:09:30.730 --> 02:09:31.230
Obviously,
1797
02:09:31.530 --> 02:09:34.990
you. Yep. Who else was there? It's a good crew
1798
02:09:35.475 --> 02:09:37.795
in that room. I mean, obviously, like, Zach and
1799
02:09:38.195 --> 02:09:44.375
And and uncle uncle uncle Zach was in there for a bit. Oh, uncle Zach. He's in the room then. Yeah. He's, he's great.
1800
02:09:46.260 --> 02:09:48.360
Yeah. It was just it was just ridiculous.
1801
02:09:49.620 --> 02:09:50.120
But,
1802
02:09:50.740 --> 02:09:59.340
you know, despite that, you know, we we definitely didn't flip the guy. No. But he did make make an interesting comment that I I thought was really funny. Like,
1803
02:09:59.820 --> 02:10:04.159
despite our our difference on the views of, like, bonds and dollars and Bitcoin,
1804
02:10:04.940 --> 02:10:11.015
and despite the fact that he thought that Bitcoin had the potential to destroy the planet and the environment,
1805
02:10:11.715 --> 02:10:14.935
he still despite that, he still thought
1806
02:10:15.530 --> 02:10:17.550
it was a good idea to allocate
1807
02:10:18.170 --> 02:10:19.869
up to 5% of your portfolio
1808
02:10:20.409 --> 02:10:26.895
in Bitcoin. And when I hear stories like that, with people who are so entrenched in the fiat monetary system,
1809
02:10:27.195 --> 02:10:35.090
I know that we're winning and I it gives me so much hope. Oh my god. I just wanted to share that I wanted to share that story with everyone. I I thought it was hilarious
1810
02:10:35.470 --> 02:10:38.930
despite me sort of just being a drunken mess with this guy.
1811
02:10:39.390 --> 02:10:40.370
It just really
1812
02:10:41.025 --> 02:10:45.845
was a great illustration of the strides that are being made despite us
1813
02:10:46.385 --> 02:10:49.445
losing 50% of our value in 2 moms,
1814
02:10:49.800 --> 02:10:58.460
despite all the things that are going on and the affinity schemes and all the shit coin are still going on. Like, we're making strides in the right direction,
1815
02:11:00.014 --> 02:11:01.875
that are ultimately gonna change
1816
02:11:02.335 --> 02:11:08.989
the course of humanity and and the world. It's incredible. Oh, great. 100%. Yeah. That was, that was such a bullish conversation. He
1817
02:11:09.370 --> 02:11:11.370
was he was, like, a dollar maxi. Like,
1818
02:11:12.090 --> 02:11:15.870
I I've I've never seen anybody like that. Like, maybe, like, Joe Weisenbaum,
1819
02:11:16.409 --> 02:11:16.909
like,
1820
02:11:18.535 --> 02:11:27.560
level. Maybe even, like, you can burst. But Yeah. Man, I mean and and still he says 5% allocation. So how bullish is that?
1821
02:11:29.620 --> 02:11:33.240
Yeah. It was unbelievable. That was definitely one of the highlights of the night.
1822
02:11:34.285 --> 02:11:37.405
Yeah. And then then from there, we proceeded to get really drunk.
1823
02:11:37.965 --> 02:11:48.400
We went out to 2 bars. It was great hanging with y'all. I love you. That was fun. Yeah. I see Zach there. Thanks, Zach. It was a good time as usual, and, can't wait to do that again.
1824
02:11:51.164 --> 02:11:51.664
Absolutely.
1825
02:11:52.605 --> 02:12:09.085
Alright. So, I don't think we're topping that. So on that note, I got we we gotta call it here. I wanna thank everyone who, got it. Oh, actually, hold up. We got we got John's in. We'll get John's in real quick because I love John's. He's a great contributor to the community. He's been helping out some on the Zeus redesign.
1826
02:12:09.465 --> 02:12:10.445
What's up, John's?
1827
02:12:10.905 --> 02:12:19.080
1828
02:12:20.260 --> 02:12:20.760
1829
02:12:21.140 --> 02:12:30.725
John, just just shouts to you, man. Thanks for hopping on the stage. Next time we do one of these rips, you gotta come on, and then we gotta rip more. Definitely. Maybe maybe on lightning Friday,
1830
02:12:31.185 --> 02:12:36.290
I think we're gonna do, Chaz, what time are we doing on Fridays? We do 4 PM? Yeah. 4 PM EST.
1831
02:12:37.550 --> 02:12:50.905
4 PM EST. Back on Twitter spaces, we'll be at it. Hopefully, Citadel dispatch is back on its, normal programming next week. This has been fun, but I'm sure I wanna do it every week despite me be doing so many episodes.
1832
02:12:52.130 --> 02:12:54.870
Yeah. This has been awesome. Thank you all. Thanks to Jessica
1833
02:12:55.890 --> 02:12:56.710
and for recording.
1834
02:12:57.489 --> 02:12:59.429
Thanks for Chaz for asking great questions.
1835
02:13:00.265 --> 02:13:04.365
OpenNoms for telling us all about the joint market and his efforts there.
1836
02:13:05.225 --> 02:13:07.645
Ty for the story. Rodolfo for
1837
02:13:08.179 --> 02:13:10.520
all his insights about Canada and,
1838
02:13:11.380 --> 02:13:19.574
CoinKite and all that stuff. And, of course, everyone tuning in and supporting and listening, the freaks that are huddling, the freaks that are building.
1839
02:13:19.955 --> 02:13:21.175
I appreciate y'all.
1840
02:13:22.675 --> 02:13:23.975
And, on that note,
1841
02:13:24.355 --> 02:13:27.850
I call it here and and do my little intro outro music. So,
1842
02:13:29.190 --> 02:13:30.010
cheers, freaks.
1843
02:13:33.590 --> 02:13:35.290
1844
02:13:36.265 --> 02:13:38.045
1845
02:13:38.585 --> 02:13:41.005
will be created to enforce them.
1846
02:13:41.945 --> 02:13:42.445
Crises
1847
02:13:43.065 --> 02:13:43.565
precipitate
1848
02:13:44.850 --> 02:13:45.350
change.
1849
02:17:02.870 --> 02:17:05.785
1850
02:17:48.511 --> 02:17:50.131
That's it for this week, freaks,
1851
02:17:50.990 --> 02:17:51.490
junkies,
1852
02:17:53.975 --> 02:17:54.715
all y'all.
1853
02:17:55.335 --> 02:17:56.955
Love you. Have a good one.
