June 15, 2021
CD26: using a bitcoin node with @raspiblitz, @ronindojoui, @mynodebtc, @start9labs, and @nodl_it
EPISODE: 0.2.6
BLOCK: 687726
PRICE: 2478 sats per dollar
TOPICS: using a bitcoin node, bitcoin node projects, tradeoffs, software licenses, monetization
@raspiblitz: https://twitter.com/raspiblitz
@ronindojoui: https://twitter.com/ronindojoui
@mynodebtc: https://twitter.com/mynodebtc
@start9labs: https://twitter.com/start9labs
@nodl_it: https://twitter.com/nodl_it
streamed live every tuesday:
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00:00 - Introduction to Bitcoin and investing in certainty
02:19 - Citadel Dispatch and running your own node
12:42 - Trade-offs in running a node
38:16 - Discussion on open source licenses
50:35 - The importance of open source and being able to read and verify code
51:31 - The issue of false advertising and misrepresentation of licenses
52:26 - The role of licensing in changing the mindset of the community
53:30 - The need for accurate representation of licenses and ethical practices
57:34 - Exploring middle ground licenses and the business source license
01:00:10 - Considerations and strategies for licensing in different contexts
01:05:32 - The importance of evaluating licensing as a means to an end and adapting strategies
01:21:39 - The challenges and benefits of different licensing approaches
01:39:27 - Monetizing through continuous development and additional services
01:40:07 - Pay for service
01:41:16 - Balancing making money and providing value
01:44:15 - The importance of open source in the Bitcoin space
01:48:27 - Discussion on VCs and proprietary licenses
01:51:11 - The role of marketing and user experience in attracting users
01:58:39 - Handling contentious forks and user choice
02:01:34 - Considerations for start-ups and the importance of freedom to fork
02:24:17 - Discussion about the fear of closed source software and the importance of open source in the Bitcoin ecosystem
02:48:00 - Comparison of different hardware options for running a Bitcoin node
02:58:59 - Importance of redundant drives for running a lightning routing node
03:07:10 - Reminder about accessing archives and supporting the show
03:07:38 - Upcoming break and appreciation for listeners
03:08:01 - Discussion about checking the price of Bitcoin
03:10:11 - Loss of money and downfalls
03:11:46 - Repeat track and support for Bitcoin artists
03:12:01 - Plans for future episodes and RHR
03:12:21 - Closing remarks
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:04:09 PM
Duration: 11546.097
Channels: 1
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I wanna say last spring said, you know what? I'm getting into crypto for the first time.
2
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Again, I thought things were crazy, and I think they're crazy now. Bitcoin
3
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listen. I like Bitcoin.
4
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Right?
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Bitcoin
6
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is math,
7
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and math has been around for 1000 of years.
8
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And it 2 +2 is gonna equal 4, and it will for the next 2000 years. So I like the idea of investing in something that's reliable,
9
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consistent,
10
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honest, and a 100% certain.
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So Bitcoin has appealed to me
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because it's a way for me to invest
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in certainty. Where, again, I look at the difference between
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the Fed of 2013,
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the Fed of 2021.
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I I'm going how how can this
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do I wanna have faith necessarily?
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I look at the difference between Trump and Biden. Do I wanna have faith
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in that same reliability and consistency of human nature?
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And the linear nature of human nature, which we know is anything but that. You like Bitcoin at these prices?
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I'm listen. You got in, what, at about 10,000?
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I I like Bitcoin
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as a portfolio diversifier. Everyone always ask me, what should I do with my portfolio? My employees say I say, okay. Listen. The only thing that I know for certain
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is I wanna have 5% in gold,
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5% in Bitcoin,
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5% in cash,
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5% in commodities at this point in time. I don't know
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what I wanna do
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with the other 80%.
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I wanna wait and see what the Fed's gonna do because what they do will have a big impact.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.
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This is Citadel dispatch 26 for you
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freaks keeping track at home. That's over 6 months straight of Bitcoin Tuesdays that we've shared together,
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and we have a
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extra special one
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this week
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focused on running your own node and using your own node and the trade offs involved with that
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decision. Citadel Dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
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Before we get started, I just wanted to do a big shout out to all the freaks who support the show and help keep it ad free.
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That's the way I wanna keep it. I want this show to be a show by the audience for the audience
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by Bitcoiners, for Bitcoiners,
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and just in the spirit of open source in general, just have it
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available for all. So thank you for that. I couldn't do without you. To the freaks who are joining us after the fact via the audio streams,
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that was Paul Tudor Jones,
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billionaire money guy, on CNBC
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talking about how he likes the coin,
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with Andrew Ross Sorkin, who hates the coin and has to constantly talk about it because
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his showrunners demand it because that's how they get engagement.
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Today, we will be focused on using and running a node.
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I've done a couple polls on Twitter in the lead up to this. One was in April.
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Do you use your own Bitcoin node? There was 55 100 votes,
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35
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percent 36% said yes, 36% no said no, almost 10% asked what is a node, and 20% had zero conviction whatsoever and asked to see the answers.
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I did another poll,
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yesterday.
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Similar question. 41% said yes. 35% said no. This time, I put not sure as an option.
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I think this conversation is more important than ever.
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What is a Bitcoin node? Before we get started, a Bitcoin node to interact with the network with the Bitcoin network, you need to use a Bitcoin node to do it.
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If you're not using your own node, you're using someone else's node, that means you have to trust them with both verifying the rules of the network and your privacy,
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so it's absolutely imperative if you wanna be a sovereign Bitcoin Bitcoiner
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to
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use your own node. It is the way it is the way to ultimately use the Bitcoin network in the most trust minimized fashion possible.
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We are fortunate enough to have,
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contributors
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from
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most of the leading Bitcoin node projects.
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That includes Ketominer from Noddle,
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Zelco,
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and Laikuo from Ronin Dojo.
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We have rootsol and openoms from raspi blitz. We have Matt Hill from start 9, and we have Taylor from myNode.
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This is
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a packed panel. We've never had this many people on a dispatch before,
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so please
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work with us here as we we go through this discussion. It is going to be a loaded discussion
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with a lot of opinions and a lot of moving pieces. So I just wanna do a big thanks for the guests for joining us.
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This is pretty exciting.
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For our audio freaks,
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they're gonna have a little bit trouble
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following the voices. So what I wanna do is,
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on the screen here, I wanna I wanna do introductions from each person so that they can kind of figure out your voice,
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and we'll start with Matt Hill. Matt, say hi to the freaks.
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Sup, freaks?
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Want a little bit more voice,
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example?
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Yeah. Why don't you just why don't you guys just introduce your project as you come go through as well?
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Sure. We are Start 9. Our primary product
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is Embassy OS.
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We sell it standalone.
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You can also build from source.
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We'd also sell it as part of an embassy, which is basically Raspberry Pi in a box,
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with a little bit of branding on it,
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plug and play experience,
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and it is designed to be a graphical operating system
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for self hosted software, generally speaking. So the fact that you are able to seamlessly run a Bitcoin node
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on Embassy,
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is not unintentional, obviously. It's the first service we offered, but our goals are a bit more broad than that.
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Awesome. Thank you, Matt. We have Open Arms here. Open Arms, you wanna Open Arms is a repeat guest,
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but just do a quick introduction for the freaks.
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Hi, Ol. Nice to be here again.
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In the function of a contributor to the rest of this project headed by Rudso.
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And, you know, looking forward to the discussion.
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Thank you, Open Arms. Zelco, why don't Zelco is also a repeat guest. Welcome back, Zelco.
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Hey. What's up, brother? Appreciate you being here and,
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and hosting this after, Miami. I know we talked about it, and it's cool to back be actually doing it.
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I'm glad that all these node projects are here.
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Me and, like, well, we, we're here from Ronin Dojo, so the samurai focused,
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full node project,
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to give you all your privacy needs. And, and, yeah, this this will be fun.
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Thank you, Zelka. Rutsal, I met you in Miami. What's up, dude?
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Yeah. Good to hear you again.
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Yeah. It's Ruthsol.
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I'm working with Open Arms here, on the Respiblitz.
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Kinda most of we call them maintainer or kind of a lead dev there.
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Kind of started a project back with
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the full more hectic days. It was always a platform to have a Bitcoin and Lightning node running on a Raspberry Pi,
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and to set it up yourself. You can get all the parts from Amazon and and build it yourself. So it's a whole GitHub. It's a tutorial to follow.
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And more and more developed,
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into a little bit bigger platform.
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And, yeah, it's, it's I think it's very community driven, so we have a lot of contributors
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kind of from those kind of events. The idea is coming a little bit more from an educational background and also kind of running and, optimizing to be a lightning routing node, from your home.
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Thank you, Rutsal. Like Wo, return guest as well. What's going on, Lykwo?
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And he is at a barbecue right now, so he might not be listening to us.
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We'll move on to Taylor from Minode. How's it going, Taylor?
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Hey. It's going good. So I'm Taylor from Minode. I founded it, maybe, it was
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2019, early 2019, and, I mean, like most of the other guests here, the goal is to kinda be a a Bitcoin node and run, you know, self hosted software
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so that you can run it
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in sort of like a well, you can run it trustlessly,
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and,
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you can just build it yourself from scratch, but you can also
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buy one of our prebuilt nodes and kinda take that route. But one of the goals when I originally started was basically enabling
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or creating an easier way for people to run all the awesome, like, open source software that's out there. Right? Like, there's a whole lot of awesome stuff that starts with Bitcoin as a foundation,
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builds on top of it with the Lightning Network, with,
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mixing with privacy tools.
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And a lot of people sort of are interested in that, but maybe,
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don't have the technical skills to do it and wanna take an easier path to do that. So I really wanted to enable people to easily sort of run all this awesome open source software out there and, do it themselves and run it at their own home.
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Awesome. Thank you, Taylor, for that introduction.
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Laikuo is back. Laikuo.
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Say hi. Hey. How are you doing? Good morning. Thank you for having me. I'm here for onboarding Dojo project. I'm here to
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talk to everybody on the no projects. I'm very glad everybody's here together, and we can discuss, you know, what we're working on and why running a full node is important to everybody's privacy.
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And I'd like to talk about, you know, open source, licenses
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and what that mean to everybody.
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Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We will definitely be discussing it. And,
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I I just wanted to before we get to I guess and we have Key2Miner here. Key2Miner return guest. Say hi to the freaks.
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Hey, guys. How are you doing? Very happy to meet our,
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most most younger siblings.
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So I'm the founder and creator of the Nodal Full Node. And as I remember, we are the oldest one here probably right now.
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And we have a few first in our history, like, 1st, BTCP in a box, 1st full tone out for 1st full disc encryption, and full 1st red setup in a note.
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Awesome.
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To the new freaks, I mean, we have episodes
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already with, Zelco,
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with Open Arms, with Laquo, with Kidah Miner,
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with Matt Hill's partner, Keegan.
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So, I mean, we have episodes already on all these node projects except for my node.
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So feel free to go back to the back catalog on that. That's at citadel dispatch.com,
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or if you just type in citadel dispatch into your favorite podcast feed,
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all of those episodes will be there.
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That includes some of the other conversations that we'll be having surrounding these node projects, including licenses. I mean, licenses is a conversation that we've had many times on dispatch, which is why I think,
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it's a particularly well suited platform for this discussion we're about to have.
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Before we get started, since it's kind of early in the episode, it has been 26 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row. That's over 6 months.
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Next week, I am going to be off grid, so there will not be a Bitcoin 2 well, Bitcoin Tuesday always happens no matter what, but there will not be a dispatch. I will not be joining you guys for Bitcoin Tuesday next week, but I will be returning the week after that.
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So, a little bit bittersweet, but,
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if it makes you guys feel any better, I'm gonna be having a very good time off grid. So,
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a little r and r is needed.
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So let's just jump right into this.
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You know, I have,
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some key things I want to cover. You know, we already mentioned licenses. That is definitely gonna be discussed. But I think
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before we jump into that, I would like to start with
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trade offs in general. I think just high level trade offs. I also have about
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20 bullet points provided by 6102 Bitcoin.
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So we're gonna try and nail as many of those as we can nail and just kinda see where this discussion goes.
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So, I mean, the way I look at it is I think the overwhelming majority of the world is not using a Bitcoin node currently.
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I think the overwhelming majority of Bitcoiners aren't using a node currently,
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and I think a lot of them are intimidated.
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And I I I think,
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you know, one of the things you hear a lot of is just run Bitcoin Core on a computer that you have lying around. Maybe,
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use Spectre or Sparrow with it on the same computer, so then you can interact with the hardware wallet, and that's definitely something you can do.
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But if you wanna level up your game and you wanna use Lightning or you wanna use CoinJoin and you wanna have a dedicated 247 node,
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then then all of a sudden, these projects that you guys are maintaining and improving really come into play, and and a lot of freaks
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are kinda hit with
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a question, you know, which which which project do I use and what is what are the differences between those projects.
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1st and foremost, I like to say that the fact that that Bitcorders have so many options today is absolutely,
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amazing.
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So so cheers to all of you guys. I mean, if even if you just go back a year, 2 years ago,
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there really weren't many options at all.
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So it's really fantastic to see.
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So so with all that said,
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my first thought is,
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you know, you're a Bitcoiner, you're coming in, you're coming in, you're trying to decide
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which project you should use, which which nodes you should run. I mean, in some cases, you might be running multiple
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different,
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nodes.
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I guess we can jump into that too, but I think the main thing people are are asking themselves are what are the trade offs, and I'm I'm kinda curious how you guys approach,
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those trade offs.
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I I guess
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who who do we start off with here? You wanna start, Zelco? Yeah. Sure.
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Because we I mean, mean, I'm sure everyone else gets these questions as well since there's so many options. You had new users all the time.
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But I'm actually gonna read from what Evan
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Cloud has said because he actually summed it up pretty well, and I agree with it.
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So he wrote that the best prebuilt is, nodal.
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For the best coin join coin joins, use Ronin.
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Best,
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for more technical users in LN,
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Lightning is RAS by Blitz.
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Best complete nontechnical
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people best for completely nontechnical people is Umbrell.
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Start 9 if you wanna self host,
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different,
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privacy apps, and then MyNode is the best selection of
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full scale Bitcoin apps.
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I mean, I think that hit it pretty on point. I mean, there's always nuances, but I think that was pretty pretty solid.
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Does anyone wanna jump in here?
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Maybe open oh, yeah. Hit us.
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What's Umbrel? I mean, are they here?
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No.
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Okay.
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Umbrel is not joining us today,
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and we've never had them on dispatch. So
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take that with as you will. Hopefully, we will have them on the show at some time in the future.
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I'm kinda curious on, Matt's opinion on on Zelco's,
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framing there.
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Well, I don't find any glaring,
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mistakes in that. And I was this, did Evan sale this at the Fostome in Miami? Is that what you're referring to?
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No. He just post it was in a a Telegram chat. Someone just kinda asked for a brief overview. I mean, I mean, it was a it's a super brief, like Yeah. New, like, new
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response. So, like, we can definitely dive into more. I mean, there's obviously
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a lot of different
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a lot of differences between the projects. So,
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So, yeah, let me let yeah. I'll elaborate a little bit. So, you know, when we first came on the scene,
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February
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2019, this was at Unconfiscatable.
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We were immediately
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pegged as a plug and play Bitcoin node, which was fine with us. Right? We were at a, you know, Bitcoin Maximalist conference, and we were there for a reason. It's because we offered a plug and play Bitcoin note. Now our approach to that,
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was a bit different,
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than I think all of the other implementations
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here, and that we were offering a full Bitcoin node
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on top of,
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our primary objective, which is a sort of generalized computing platform for running cell phones with software.
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Bitcoin just happens to be a piece of software that can be self hosted that should be self hosted.
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And so, you know, we sort of targeted the Bitcoin
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community as our initial target market.
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And so didn't mind being pegged as, you know, a Bitcoin
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node.
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And since then, we've done a lot of, you know, kind of grassroots
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marketing, just talking on podcasts and whatnot to try to explain,
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that we are not
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that. Right? We are very much trying to build a, like I said, DevOps in a box for grandma,
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you know, with principles of 0 command line ever
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and graphical configuration
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always,
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and have now been somewhat pegged as the
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use the embassy
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if you want to do other things besides Bitcoin, which, again, we're not upset about because we've actually pushed for this. But the reality is is that most of our users,
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who have either purchased or built an embassy,
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their feedback has been
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that it was
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the easiest
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setup process that they've had. And let me rephrase that. It's not I would not claim that the Embassy is necessarily the easiest setup process. I think that all of these implementations
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are quite easy.
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Where Embassy,
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kind of shines through
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is in the
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maintenance
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process
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when it comes time to configure things and manage dependencies.
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Because we've actually built a sort of computing platform,
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you, as a nontechnical user, can get in there. And rather than SSH ing in and adding a dotcom file
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or,
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updating your OS and getting a bunch of bundled new apps, you can sort of, you know, a la carte modularly
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install, uninstall, and configure various services
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without,
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fucking it up. Right? So it really is more of a,
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I don't know, agile
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experience
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rather than a plug it in and everything works. It's like plug it in and there's nothing.
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You actually go in
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and install the things you want to install, configure them the way you want to configure them, fire them up, and the operating system facilitates that entire process. So I think the experience is just different. I don't think it's valid to say which is easier.
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I think they're all very easy.
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It's just a different approach.
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So, yeah, I would agree with that. I I don't think one is necessarily all that much easier to get started with if you're familiar with the typical
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process of, you know, setting up a Raspberry Pi. Like, if you know how to flash an SD card and plug in an external drive, I think most of the, you know, node implementations are about as easy.
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But I I
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you're probably correct, Matt.
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With my note as of several months ago, you know, we were very
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it had a set of apps. It wasn't configurable,
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but we've been migrating over the past, you know, 2 or 3 months to a a much more modular approach as well because I agree with that. I think it's a lot better. And
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probably has it too. I mean, they have all, like, the bonus scripts to go sort of install extra apps. There is a core set, but,
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you know, you can kind of add on and build on top of that. And I I think that's gonna be important because, you know, statically having one set of software isn't gonna be as flexible for the users, and there's gonna be a huge variety of,
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different types of users, I think, coming on board. And, Matt, to your point early on about, like, why run a node? I I think it's gonna get better and better over time as there's more software that relies on that, like, base Bitcoin foundation
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with, you know, the different chat apps and things that don't well, first, you have Bitcoin, and then on top of that, you can have Lightning That gives you sort of, like, a wallet plus, you know, a set of private keys that can, like, authenticate and do things. And then on top of that, you start having
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various services. Like, you could use LND Hub and start sharing that functionality with other people, or you can have, like, Sphinx and start having, like, secure decentralized chat applications. And so I think that's gonna be a big marketing drive to get people to start running their own node as you can have more and more functionality that people want to use because, honestly, it's not, like, the best selling point in the world to the average Bitcoin user, I don't think, like, hey, just run a note and validate your transactions. We all know that's important. A lot of people know that's important,
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but,
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I I don't think that's as good of a selling point for the average Bitcoin user. I think you're gonna have to, like, sell them with other apps and and
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show them cool use cases of things to get more and more people
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onboarded into running their own node. Well, I mean, I might be a little bit biased, but I personally think
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that the easier sell is the privacy side.
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I mean, that is a side that I've been more focused on, but I think it's something that's more tangible for people.
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Unfortunately, a lot of people don't really care about privacy, but I think most people understand why privacy
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is at least desired or important.
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So if you tell them rightfully so that, you know,
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it's really hard to use Bitcoin privately if you're not using your own node,
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then they realize that's an actionable
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step that they that they have to take at some point in their Bitcoin upgrade journey.
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This idea of verifying your transactions, while
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absolutely imperative
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for Bitcoiners to understand
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in the long tail is is definitely a harder thing for people to grasp.
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I I just
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a a key aspect here that I want it to be clear to the freaks is, like, no matter what you use, everything in life has trade offs. Right?
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And one of the nice things,
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you know, trade offs by trade offs, I mean pros and cons. Right? And one of the nice things about options,
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is that you're able to have all these different trade off balances that these different projects take,
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to find things that fit
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your current situation the best or your current prep model the best.
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Open Arms, do you have some insight here in terms of, like, how freaks should should think about trade offs when when they're thinking about, you know, which projects they wanna run?
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Yeah. Well, I think you wanted to comment on on on the aspect of of why we are doing this and why all these projects are using, like, a dedicated computer to start off with that. Because, obviously, running a node is
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already if you're running Bitcoin Core on your on your Windows laptop, it is running a running a node. But it is
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much more difficult to do it privately and even more difficult or equally difficult to do it securely.
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So what
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is the single
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easiest and kind of most efficient thing
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to do is to take the things you are worried about
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from these two aspects and put it in a separate box with physical isolation.
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And and on there,
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you would want to run a software which you can
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which you are able to audit or at least people who you trust or know
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or birth can,
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you you need to,
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rely on their work, which is the software running on it. So you need to be able to verify this,
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you know, completely or as much as possible
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to be
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secure and also to trust that it's not leaking data you would you would want to avoid to be to be leaked.
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And
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so that's why these,
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projects are all in a in a separate box, and that's why we we all say that, you know, you should grab a Raspberry Pi. A wired Raspberry Pi, we can even we can go into that. Well, that's the most widely available and kind of free live
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single board computer available.
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But, like, Nodal doesn't use an Raspberry Pi, and most of the most
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of these softwares
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can run on other
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single board computers as well.
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So that's not a given either.
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So
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why so why why I'm working on respoblitz?
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I I think it's just because
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I've I've started to learn on it, and it is a kind of a platform which just makes you tinker.
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So
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it might be you might need to learn how to how to use SSH, which is which is just, opening another door to kind of another world of computer
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science, which which makes you able to do anything. And then you will be able to do things which you weren't thinking that there is much more to a computer than clicking a button. So, I mean,
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that is
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an an aspect, and, you know, we do have
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we also because of this kind of approach, we are on the cutting edge of of the of the
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especially the lightning related apps. So if you want to experiment, want to try things out
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quick
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and also
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learn more, then, you know, that's the best way to go. But, I mean, you know, I absolutely see
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the the things,
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which the this are strong in other projects as well. I run myself,
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around Endojo because, you know, I think that is good to have
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the,
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kind of what a Whirlpool,
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Semlerite wallet ecosystem
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just dedicated always on. You know? I don't I very rarely touch it whereas I think of it my respiratory everyday. Right? So it's kind of kind of,
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has its place,
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and I I love that it's it is like that. And,
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well, I I would also for new year new users
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who might not be that technical, not interested, you know, I would
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probably
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tell to kind of buy buy a model or, you know,
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give a go of the of the other new projects which are
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which doesn't need to kind of get go into the command line at all.
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Alright.
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Yeah. I I can probably go next about trade offs. And,
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one one thing that our users probably noticed a lot of time is that we are slow,
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we in providing some upgrades.
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And, I would like to explain maybe why,
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we do that. We we want to provide
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the user experience with just works.
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And, we had too many cases of
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between, like,
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that particular version of Bitcoin d not running with that particular version of BTCPay
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or LND not playing nice in some version with some other services.
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So we we are extensively
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testing
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everything we do.
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I'm running, like, 10 different models at home just to,
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test various combinations of the software.
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Some also some internal choices like running MariaDB instead of Postgres for, BTP because,
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just because we run it for other services already.
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And,
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Mario DB and MySQL,
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support in BTCPay is
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regularly broken. And, actually, I'm making PRs to fix it every time.
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So, yeah, we
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we are probably slow, but I'm
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hope that,
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people notice that usually when we put out an upgrade, everything works.
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It probably does 90% of the time because,
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I'm only me and, I make mistakes.
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But, yeah, that that's one trade off that you definitely have with the the model.
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Does anyone here actually feel like,
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power users shouldn't be using multiple nodes? Like, because I my my feeling is that, you know, what OpenOM said is this idea that you run multiple nodes for different purposes and you kinda segregate them. So by design,
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you have some isolation there between the different things you're running.
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I absolutely believe that people should run multiple nodes because,
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you know, all these node projects offer different applications. You know, they, they offer a lot of lightning different applications,
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Bitcoin, you know, Spector, all these different wallets that you can implement on a Raspberry PI or a RockPro PI. But the problem is
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is users, you know, especially new users,
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want to run everything
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that's on there. And that's gonna cause a lot of issues with these devices who are limited in, you know, processing and limited in RAM.
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So,
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I always suggest that you don't run try to run everything that's on there. You you should have a dedicated lightning network,
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node that runs, you know, maybe at my note or whatever other offering there is that offers lightning network just to run that and run that. And you wanna run, you know, dodo, run it dedicated. Don't run everything together because you're gonna you're gonna have instability issues in the end. And these are problems that you see on other products where, you know,
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the the the systems, you know, runs out of RAM. It you know, people have to reboot ever so often. So, you know, it's it's it's not a problem to run all these different devices. They're small enough. They don't make sounds. You know, they're you can you can stack them up and then keep them in a closet somewhere and just, you know, keep them dedicated. Don't don't try to run everything because, you know, it's not it's gonna run into issues. That's my that's my suggestion.
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Yeah. I I would add to that. As much as I appreciate what stop 9 is doing with the embassy,
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I believe that self hosting
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00:31:17.320 --> 00:31:18.360
services like,
415
00:31:19.385 --> 00:31:22.365
files or mails or chat or anything else,
416
00:31:23.385 --> 00:31:30.200
shouldn't be mixed with your money. Like, would you use your bank to store anything else that your money?
417
00:31:30.820 --> 00:31:37.640
Probably not. So do the same with your Bitcoin. Have one device only for your Bitcoin and another device for everything else.
418
00:31:41.205 --> 00:31:51.159
Yeah. I I somewhat agree with that as well. Like, I mean, I know my note that we have BTC pay server, but at the same time, like, if you're really gonna go run, like, a huge store off of that,
419
00:31:51.620 --> 00:32:03.144
I I wouldn't run an online store on my main my note device. Right? I I would sort of, you know, probably go get a you know, run a server somewhere or rent a VPS or something.
420
00:32:03.445 --> 00:32:05.980
So I think it depends on the type of application, and
421
00:32:06.380 --> 00:32:07.679
I agree that, you
422
00:32:08.059 --> 00:32:12.799
know, run what you care about. Don't immediately go flip on every on switch, as cool as it might seem,
423
00:32:13.179 --> 00:32:19.035
because you're just gonna end up having it go slow and run into trouble, and especially when it comes to publicly accessible services.
424
00:32:20.135 --> 00:32:23.995
Now if it's based on your lightning node, I think that's probably okay.
425
00:32:24.330 --> 00:32:30.750
But, I I wouldn't wanna start running other servers on my device that, you know, is also my my Bitcoin node because,
426
00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:39.105
I think you're just opening up the door for potential security vulnerabilities and keeping it limited to to just the apps that you use is probably a good idea.
427
00:32:40.205 --> 00:32:50.130
Yeah. And at the very least, reverse proxy or or VPN or use IP to or services like that to to connect back to your node. Never expose your own IP address.
428
00:32:53.135 --> 00:32:57.395
Yeah. I guess I should probably jump in the comment here since we're the the largest,
429
00:32:58.095 --> 00:33:00.115
violators of this of this
430
00:33:02.049 --> 00:33:06.309
principle of not sort of mixing your money with your data with your passwords. So
431
00:33:06.610 --> 00:33:07.350
in principle,
432
00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:09.029
we agree.
433
00:33:09.409 --> 00:33:11.455
I think it is better to,
434
00:33:11.835 --> 00:33:12.335
bifurcate
435
00:33:12.635 --> 00:33:16.815
your money, especially when it comes to lightning since the money is living
436
00:33:17.275 --> 00:33:18.095
on the node,
437
00:33:18.910 --> 00:33:24.290
from, you know, some more maybe benign things, maybe some less secure things that you might be self hosting.
438
00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:28.755
So just a little bit of an overview of where we're at currently.
439
00:33:29.774 --> 00:33:33.554
I believe we have 15 services on our marketplace.
440
00:33:34.510 --> 00:33:38.450
About half of them are not in any way, shape, or form related to Bitcoin.
441
00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:44.525
I'm running all 15 of them. Now this includes Bitcoin Core and includes Bitcoin Proxy,
442
00:33:44.985 --> 00:33:56.230
which is a wrapper for Bitcoin Core that we wrote that sort of supercharges a pruned node, which is how we're able to run all of the various lightning services that we offer against a pruned node.
443
00:33:57.815 --> 00:33:58.315
So,
444
00:33:58.615 --> 00:34:01.674
Lightning, Bitcoin, somewhat hungry applications.
445
00:34:01.975 --> 00:34:06.154
We just launched Matrix, which can also be quite hungry. Mastodon can be quite hungry.
446
00:34:06.620 --> 00:34:09.360
I am running all of those as are most of our
447
00:34:09.660 --> 00:34:10.160
customers,
448
00:34:10.940 --> 00:34:14.400
in parallel at the same time on a 4 gigabyte
449
00:34:15.154 --> 00:34:16.295
high with a
450
00:34:16.835 --> 00:34:20.134
128 gigabyte micro SD card as the primary
451
00:34:20.515 --> 00:34:26.200
storage, which was a mistake, and we are now fixing that in those 3 o where we have external drives.
452
00:34:27.140 --> 00:34:29.880
And we're operating at about 50% capacity
453
00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:44.420
over Tor always. Right? There is no port forwarding. There is no static IP required. Absolutely everything on the embassy right out of the box works over Tor v 3. You can also connect to your embassy and all your services over,
454
00:34:44.819 --> 00:34:50.200
LAN, over dot local with SSL enabled because your embassy spins up its own root certificate
455
00:34:50.505 --> 00:34:51.005
authority.
456
00:34:52.585 --> 00:35:00.530
And so all of this is you know, I I mentioned that to to speaks to, your point about not insecurely accessing your embassy.
457
00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:09.045
But, basically, today, in short, with 15 services running in parallel on a 5 forward, a 128 gigabyte micro SD, it is smooth as butter.
458
00:35:09.665 --> 00:35:12.805
We know that that is not going to scale, and we acknowledge
459
00:35:13.505 --> 00:35:14.244
the potential,
460
00:35:15.299 --> 00:35:16.440
sort of security
461
00:35:16.740 --> 00:35:23.960
vulnerability that could come about from, you know, poor management of keeping your money and your passwords on the same device. But,
462
00:35:24.305 --> 00:35:25.525
our solution to that,
463
00:35:26.305 --> 00:35:30.565
is to run multiple. Right? We encourage our customers to get another embassy,
464
00:35:31.025 --> 00:35:36.460
or to get one of the other implementations that are on the show, which we promote, by the way, all the time,
465
00:35:37.080 --> 00:35:43.955
and say that they're not mutually exclusive. It's perfectly fine for you to get a a note or a minor or a Rhapsody blitz
466
00:35:44.335 --> 00:35:51.410
and or a number, I hate to say on this show right now. But we do recommend these things and then say, hey. Use your Embassy for
467
00:35:51.790 --> 00:35:52.830
for other stuff.
468
00:35:53.150 --> 00:35:55.650
And lastly, I'll just add one more thing, which is that
469
00:35:56.315 --> 00:35:57.375
Embassy's modular
470
00:35:57.675 --> 00:35:58.175
architecture
471
00:35:59.035 --> 00:36:01.215
allows you to, for instance, run,
472
00:36:01.835 --> 00:36:05.890
an LND note or a c lightning node on your Embassy
473
00:36:06.270 --> 00:36:10.450
that's actually pointing to a full Bitcoin node running on your nodal.
474
00:36:11.625 --> 00:36:17.005
So you they don't need to be on the same box. Right? You can go into the settings of your LMD
475
00:36:17.545 --> 00:36:22.390
and tell it to point to a Bitcoin node that's running on the LAN of your home.
476
00:36:22.770 --> 00:36:26.870
And so you could you could actually bifurcate Bitcoin and LMD if you want.
477
00:36:32.775 --> 00:36:37.435
I mean, that that makes a lot of sense specifically because if you're if you're using multiple nodes,
478
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.980
the main additional burden or cost, besides, you know, the actual,
479
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:43.260
device,
480
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:47.260
which will run you you know, the hardware will run you about 200 to $300,
481
00:36:48.505 --> 00:36:55.244
is is really bandwidth. Right? Because if if you're actually running multiple nodes and you're not having them point at each other,
482
00:36:56.410 --> 00:37:01.950
you're basically just doubling up your bandwidth cost or tripling up your bandwidth cost. I would add that
483
00:37:04.825 --> 00:37:10.525
while you get additional benefits from running, you know, multiple implementations in terms of minimizing trust
484
00:37:11.040 --> 00:37:12.980
or or using different implementations
485
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:14.099
based on
486
00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:16.420
the trade off balances you seek,
487
00:37:17.359 --> 00:37:20.420
you know, there's an argument to be made to even running,
488
00:37:20.865 --> 00:37:24.405
you know, 2 start nines. Right? If, you know, 1 is for
489
00:37:24.785 --> 00:37:29.445
non Bitcoin data and one is for Bitcoin data. So I I don't I don't know necessarily,
490
00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:34.020
or, like, 2 Raspberry blitzes. Right? 1 for lightning and one for join market.
491
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.100
I I I don't
492
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.525
I I don't think it's mutually exclusive that they'd have to necessarily
493
00:37:40.905 --> 00:37:43.965
be different implementations even if you're running multiple nodes.
494
00:37:45.225 --> 00:37:50.019
And that will only improve the numbers of running Bitcoin also anyway.
495
00:37:54.485 --> 00:37:59.545
Bitcoin q and a saying in the chat that he's killed more SD cards than Matodel's had hot dinners.
496
00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:04.880
You know, I've had a lot of hot dinners, so we'll see about that.
497
00:38:06.060 --> 00:38:11.964
So does anyone else have any more comments on trade offs before we move on to the next layer of this discussion?
498
00:38:13.944 --> 00:38:15.244
No. Let's send it.
499
00:38:16.105 --> 00:38:18.045
Well, Zeko's got a one track mind.
500
00:38:19.050 --> 00:38:19.530
So,
501
00:38:19.930 --> 00:38:22.750
the next topic that we wanna hit here is,
502
00:38:23.290 --> 00:38:24.510
licenses specifically
503
00:38:24.810 --> 00:38:26.910
in terms of open source licenses
504
00:38:27.755 --> 00:38:29.375
versus source viewable licenses
505
00:38:31.275 --> 00:38:32.815
versus closed source licenses.
506
00:38:34.395 --> 00:38:36.015
Versus nonsoftware licenses?
507
00:38:38.080 --> 00:38:39.300
Non software licenses.
508
00:38:40.080 --> 00:38:46.545
Zelco is, itching for this discussion to start. So, Zelco, why don't you start us off, and then we'll take it from there?
509
00:38:47.585 --> 00:38:48.085
Sure.
510
00:38:49.025 --> 00:38:50.645
I'll give, like, a an overlay.
511
00:38:51.105 --> 00:38:54.244
I think it's important to for us, for the community,
512
00:38:54.785 --> 00:38:55.285
and,
513
00:38:56.850 --> 00:39:04.550
just I mean, obviously, like, for nodes, but, I mean, all software, especially when we're talking about Bitcoin. Like, what was Bitcoin about? What's the ethos about?
514
00:39:05.665 --> 00:39:07.765
That free open source software
515
00:39:08.305 --> 00:39:08.805
is
516
00:39:09.265 --> 00:39:11.605
where all this came from. Right? The cypherpunk movement.
517
00:39:13.585 --> 00:39:14.405
If that
518
00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:17.560
isn't what we're going for and that isn't what's happening,
519
00:39:18.100 --> 00:39:22.200
right, things don't get better. I mean, we had a great great discussion today
520
00:39:23.464 --> 00:39:29.005
from, from Ruth Zoll and some of the guys from his team literally contributing to Umbro
521
00:39:29.545 --> 00:39:33.580
despite or, like, trying to contribute, trying to help fix a security
522
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:34.460
flaw.
523
00:39:36.200 --> 00:39:41.260
And that doesn't that that's, like, a a unique thing, right, to the false community.
524
00:39:41.664 --> 00:39:46.565
Right? I mean, you don't see contributors outside from Google trying to, like, contribute to Google
525
00:39:47.345 --> 00:39:50.644
and get their patches put in. Like, that's not something that happens.
526
00:39:51.025 --> 00:39:54.710
But on the reverse end, when we're talking about free open source software,
527
00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:55.590
you know,
528
00:39:55.970 --> 00:39:58.850
I can contribute to my node, or I could contribute to,
529
00:39:59.490 --> 00:39:59.650
to,
530
00:40:00.825 --> 00:40:01.325
RaspiBlitz
531
00:40:01.705 --> 00:40:05.805
or anybody can come and contribute. Like I said, I've had OpenNoms come and help.
532
00:40:06.425 --> 00:40:08.605
Evan tried to help, and I denied him.
533
00:40:09.545 --> 00:40:10.045
But,
534
00:40:10.730 --> 00:40:16.190
yeah, I, I also already told Open Arms that I'm going to, deny his, joint market,
535
00:40:17.665 --> 00:40:18.705
his joint market,
536
00:40:19.105 --> 00:40:20.485
PR, but, you know,
537
00:40:21.025 --> 00:40:27.800
the end of the day Yeah. It's still a guy who have to collect. Yeah. You're not getting it in. I'm letting you know. It's it's already denied.
538
00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:40.964
But but, yeah, like, that I mean, I I think we skate around this idea of open source. Oh, that just means that the source is open and viewable. Like, that's not that's not what open source means.
539
00:40:42.319 --> 00:40:45.539
So I'm what I'm kinda curious about, right, is,
540
00:40:47.359 --> 00:40:53.895
what, like, what license or how does everyone in this in this group right now? What do you view as,
541
00:40:55.155 --> 00:40:55.975
open source?
542
00:40:56.355 --> 00:40:57.095
And then
543
00:40:57.475 --> 00:40:58.775
what do you view as
544
00:40:59.369 --> 00:41:04.029
not open source? Or, you know, like, what what's your definitions? Because I think that,
545
00:41:04.569 --> 00:41:08.109
I think that that definition is clearly really important. I mean,
546
00:41:08.425 --> 00:41:13.945
I know Umbrel's not here. They had the opportunity to defend themselves. But one thing that irritates me with that is,
547
00:41:14.745 --> 00:41:16.685
is on their site, it says
548
00:41:17.225 --> 00:41:17.725
free,
549
00:41:18.700 --> 00:41:20.559
free and open source software.
550
00:41:21.339 --> 00:41:29.035
And they claim it like that because the software is doesn't cost anything, and their source is viewable. But they're not using a
551
00:41:29.575 --> 00:41:33.595
actual they're not even using a software license, but they're also not using
552
00:41:33.974 --> 00:41:35.914
anything that is remotely
553
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:37.059
false.
554
00:41:37.520 --> 00:41:39.940
So that that kind of misrepresentation
555
00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:42.660
is, is critical for me. But
556
00:41:44.735 --> 00:41:45.235
maybe,
557
00:41:45.935 --> 00:41:49.955
maybe, Rudzo, you wanna jump into what you what your take is on that?
558
00:41:50.415 --> 00:41:55.720
Well, may maybe we could start by going through every project and saying which license,
559
00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:57.000
they have.
560
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:01.320
Yeah. That's, okay. Yeah. So Ron and Dojo, we use the AGPL.
561
00:42:03.225 --> 00:42:03.725
And
562
00:42:04.025 --> 00:42:06.045
what that basically does is
563
00:42:06.665 --> 00:42:09.325
it's open source, but it's a copy left.
564
00:42:09.785 --> 00:42:11.085
So the only
565
00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:12.460
aspect
566
00:42:13.560 --> 00:42:21.500
of of that is that it protects the open source nature of the code. So anybody can fork it and copy it, but they need to make sure that they still have that
567
00:42:23.465 --> 00:42:23.965
AGPL,
568
00:42:24.665 --> 00:42:25.165
license
569
00:42:25.705 --> 00:42:41.635
moving forward. So they can take the code, do whatever they want with it. They can sell. They can make, you know, they can sell the code. They could do whatever they want. But then it still needs to remain AGPL. They can't take it and then flip on to a copyright license and deny,
570
00:42:42.335 --> 00:42:43.555
people to view the code.
571
00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:52.000
Oh, man. I just gotta fucking say something right now. I can't fucking take it. Alright. Any project that puts free
572
00:42:52.700 --> 00:42:54.319
software on their page
573
00:42:54.619 --> 00:42:55.119
and
574
00:42:55.675 --> 00:43:27.359
wants to think that it's free. It's not free. Now it's it's, you know, open source when you're talking about free open source software, you're not talking about free as in price. You can have this pizza software for free. It means that you can have this pizza software, and you're able to modify it however you want. You can modify it to to to not have it control you, so you can control it. And you can modify it so you can give it to your neighbors, so you can pass it on to your friends and say, hey. Listen. I added, you know, I added Boost to this software. Here you go. Use it, buddy. Okay. It's all good. You don't have to worry about that. Projects shouldn't put free
575
00:43:27.740 --> 00:43:33.995
as open source software unless they mean real freedom. That's all I'm saying right now. I'm fucking pissed. Thank you.
576
00:43:36.955 --> 00:43:37.275
Thank you.
577
00:43:37.915 --> 00:43:50.170
Because I was asked about the, root zone here from Respirillitz. Because I was asked about the, what is open source, the basic from from the definition, there are kind of 3 basic freedoms that that are important that come from the open source definition
578
00:43:50.789 --> 00:43:52.170
that was kind of done
579
00:43:53.275 --> 00:43:54.015
years ago.
580
00:43:54.474 --> 00:44:15.015
First of all, it's it's it's the source code source code available, of course, that you can have the source code. It's it's open there for everybody to to see and verify. So that that's very, very important. It's not just some binary block or something or it's some source code is really when it's on GitHub, that's first good thing. But there's also the, the freedom of
581
00:44:15.395 --> 00:44:18.900
modifying the code. So you you should have the freedom
582
00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:21.859
to to take the code and and and really
583
00:44:22.160 --> 00:44:23.940
whatever you think it's it's appropriate
584
00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:26.444
is to to change on it. And,
585
00:44:26.845 --> 00:44:31.425
and very important with this com is is the combination of free re redistribution.
586
00:44:31.964 --> 00:44:32.464
So,
587
00:44:33.325 --> 00:44:38.020
for example, some projects just have the code on GitHub and they allow you to
588
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:46.865
to, download it to your computer and maybe modify it for yourself on your own computer. But it's very important. This is the freedom then of community
589
00:44:47.245 --> 00:44:51.105
is that you that everybody is free to redistribute these modifications
590
00:44:51.565 --> 00:44:54.670
to, to the public again and have this freedom.
591
00:44:55.050 --> 00:45:00.510
And those are the kind of 3 basic things: the open source, so the open code, the modification,
592
00:45:01.175 --> 00:45:02.555
and then the free redistribution
593
00:45:02.935 --> 00:45:28.650
of this modification. So base there's a lot of more little details there, but basically those those are the ones. The Respiblitz project decided to go with the MIT license, which is the open source license that also the Bitcoin Core Code, is using. It's a very, very permissive license. So, for example, compare it with the GPL kind of license, and it doesn't have this copy left. So it doesn't even if you do a modification, it even gives you the freedom
594
00:45:28.950 --> 00:45:31.130
not to do not to publish it again,
595
00:45:31.670 --> 00:45:48.280
under an, as open source. So there's, and then you can even change some things. So the M and T, M and T project could change, for example, you can just fork it and you could change it even to a GPL, for example. So it gives you a little bit more freedom. In the end, it says do what you want with the code,
596
00:45:48.820 --> 00:45:54.965
but it just puts a little paragraph in there that says, oh, use it as it is. We don't give any
597
00:45:55.505 --> 00:46:01.050
warranty about it because some most of the times there isn't even a company behind that that you could somebody do,
598
00:46:02.330 --> 00:46:08.670
make warranty claims or something. So it just gives you a little bit of legal protection there that you don't get, personally
599
00:46:08.970 --> 00:46:12.285
kind of, people don't legal don't go with a lawyer
600
00:46:12.984 --> 00:46:16.710
behind you or something. So that's, like, at least a good good legal shield there.
601
00:46:17.670 --> 00:46:21.530
And and one thing I want to add I want to add here because we're talking licenses,
602
00:46:22.070 --> 00:46:31.515
if you don't the good thing is with an MIT or real open source license, the ownership of code means that the community is owning the code. There is not a single entity
603
00:46:31.895 --> 00:46:42.910
that has more rights on the code. There so there is no no no single ownership. There is not a single person or a single company that has ownership on this code. This is very important when we talk about self sovereignty
604
00:46:43.335 --> 00:46:49.515
because self sovereignty really means you you have the freedom. You really own your shit. It's really your stuff.
605
00:46:49.895 --> 00:46:56.140
And and this is really something when you really want to why we are doing all this journey, run a node, be self sovereign,
606
00:46:56.520 --> 00:47:09.210
I think it's very important to consider maybe you just start your journey with something else, but every Node project that's out there is cool to start. Running a Node is is important. But if you really want to go down the road for the self sovereignty,
607
00:47:09.670 --> 00:47:10.810
the thing really,
608
00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:14.010
really looking out for real open source,
609
00:47:14.310 --> 00:47:16.170
code is very, very, very important.
610
00:47:16.785 --> 00:47:19.525
And just because this ownership of code is important,
611
00:47:20.065 --> 00:47:24.165
those projects that not have these three freedoms, it would be interesting to know
612
00:47:24.610 --> 00:47:30.790
what kind of company you are or what kind of project you are because if there's not if the code is not belonging to the community,
613
00:47:31.090 --> 00:47:38.395
there is some entity that has some ownership on this code and would be interesting in the in the, and because of transparency
614
00:47:38.855 --> 00:47:48.860
if people use those node projects to know who is behind that, who has still a little bit more control here on the software that are running for transparency reasons, and to understand
615
00:47:49.184 --> 00:47:51.845
what kind of product you are using. They would be also be interested,
616
00:47:52.224 --> 00:47:54.805
for you to hear from the to hear from the other projects.
617
00:47:55.505 --> 00:47:56.545
Really great insight,
618
00:47:57.200 --> 00:48:00.740
Rutsal, there. I I just wanna jump in real quick before handing it off to Kito.
619
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:03.220
The the 2 main
620
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:06.420
considered, you know, free open source licenses
621
00:48:07.185 --> 00:48:10.405
are MIT and GPL, as, Russel mentioned.
622
00:48:11.265 --> 00:48:13.765
MIT is way more permissive. With MIT,
623
00:48:14.930 --> 00:48:17.910
you could even theoretically take the code and then
624
00:48:18.369 --> 00:48:20.950
fork it and put it into your closed source project.
625
00:48:21.785 --> 00:48:22.685
With GPL,
626
00:48:23.225 --> 00:48:24.445
the distinction is
627
00:48:24.825 --> 00:48:34.120
that you have to keep it GPL after the fact. You cannot take that GPL code and then and then put it into a closed source project without opening up, your code,
628
00:48:35.060 --> 00:48:37.400
just for the freaks, just to make that clear.
629
00:48:38.100 --> 00:48:38.600
Correct.
630
00:48:39.224 --> 00:48:39.724
Kito.
631
00:48:40.984 --> 00:48:41.625
Yeah. So,
632
00:48:42.265 --> 00:48:48.150
exactly what I I wanted to mention that issue about the GPO as well because we we basically started with the unlicensed,
633
00:48:48.930 --> 00:48:51.190
which I believe is the only Cypherpunk
634
00:48:51.490 --> 00:48:53.670
compatible license, which is basically,
635
00:48:54.050 --> 00:48:54.950
public domain.
636
00:48:56.215 --> 00:48:56.935
One thing,
637
00:48:57.655 --> 00:48:59.515
people are probably not aware of,
638
00:48:59.815 --> 00:49:01.275
I I spent some time
639
00:49:01.575 --> 00:49:07.869
reading the FSF website and, and the open source initiative website before before joining this call today.
640
00:49:08.329 --> 00:49:13.390
And, basically, if you don't have a license on your project, it's not free.
641
00:49:14.705 --> 00:49:19.445
You don't guarantee the 3 or 4, depending who you ask, freedoms to the users.
642
00:49:19.745 --> 00:49:20.725
So the unlicense
643
00:49:21.265 --> 00:49:22.805
was a very good way
644
00:49:23.105 --> 00:49:24.869
to say, fuck everyone.
645
00:49:25.569 --> 00:49:28.869
You just take our stuff and do whatever you want with it.
646
00:49:29.809 --> 00:49:31.625
Then we started talking with,
647
00:49:32.825 --> 00:49:38.445
potential investors and other people, and we wanted something a little more serious than the unlicensed.
648
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:47.860
So, basically, the choice was between the BSD 2 close, 3 close, or MIT licenses, and we ended up going with the MIT license.
649
00:49:48.945 --> 00:49:52.005
I have to admit it's heavily influenced by RaspiBlitz.
650
00:49:53.345 --> 00:50:00.840
I just looked around what the other did, who didn't go with GPL, and MIT looked like the the best option for us.
651
00:50:01.300 --> 00:50:03.960
So, yeah, currently, we we use the MIT license.
652
00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:05.700
But that being said,
653
00:50:07.025 --> 00:50:08.465
I don't totally share,
654
00:50:09.185 --> 00:50:13.685
and we had a a heated argument on Twitter in DMs with Zirko
655
00:50:14.145 --> 00:50:14.965
the other day,
656
00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:20.500
that FOSS is the only way to go. I think for what we are doing,
657
00:50:21.200 --> 00:50:25.275
if you can check what actual code is running on your device,
658
00:50:25.575 --> 00:50:26.075
it's
659
00:50:26.535 --> 00:50:29.835
good enough. It's not perfect, but it's good enough,
660
00:50:30.890 --> 00:50:36.110
especially since we are talking about a bunch of shell scripts and interpreted languages. There is no binaries.
661
00:50:37.215 --> 00:50:39.555
It's only some scripts which everybody
662
00:50:39.935 --> 00:50:40.095
with,
663
00:50:40.895 --> 00:50:44.515
6 months of, programming knowledge can read and understand,
664
00:50:46.210 --> 00:50:52.470
and verify what it's doing. So I I believe, of course, if you can go with FOSS,
665
00:50:54.174 --> 00:50:55.474
go for it. But,
666
00:50:56.415 --> 00:51:00.355
being able to read the actual code that runs on your device is
667
00:51:00.730 --> 00:51:01.950
probably good enough.
668
00:51:02.570 --> 00:51:03.310
And, also,
669
00:51:05.530 --> 00:51:08.350
having the source code on the GitHub repository
670
00:51:08.810 --> 00:51:12.815
doesn't guarantee at all that is the actual code running on your device.
671
00:51:15.035 --> 00:51:21.120
And the same applies to any Android or iPhone app. Publishing the the source code doesn't
672
00:51:21.580 --> 00:51:28.000
mean that the code that you actually will find on the Play Store, on the other App Store is the code that you've seen on the repository.
673
00:51:31.565 --> 00:51:38.600
Okay. Real quick. So the only thing that I'm gonna say is that I mean, you you can have your point,
674
00:51:39.460 --> 00:51:40.520
about the
675
00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:45.285
whether it needs to be source viewable or whatever for nodes that are just running a bunch of
676
00:51:45.765 --> 00:51:47.065
shell scripts. But,
677
00:51:48.885 --> 00:51:52.265
at the end of the day, right, we shouldn't be falsely advertising,
678
00:51:53.750 --> 00:51:55.530
what it is, right, that
679
00:51:55.830 --> 00:51:57.130
that our license
680
00:51:57.510 --> 00:51:59.690
is. So, like, I shouldn't be saying,
681
00:51:59.990 --> 00:52:09.235
like, if I'm if I'm using the same, license that Umbrella is, like, I'm not gonna go and say, oh, I'm free and open source and said, no. You're not free and open source. So
682
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:15.099
and the my only issue with it isn't necessarily what you're saying. My issue with
683
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:16.460
the whole idea
684
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:17.900
is 100%
685
00:52:18.359 --> 00:52:18.859
that,
686
00:52:19.974 --> 00:52:22.234
it changes the mindset of the community.
687
00:52:23.015 --> 00:52:30.540
And that's, I think, that's why AGPL has become more popular. Right? Because it's copy lefting. It's forcing people to remain open source,
688
00:52:31.240 --> 00:52:35.100
maybe not as permissive as MIT. But when you start to get
689
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:37.100
more and more people that
690
00:52:37.445 --> 00:52:47.120
close it down and shut it down, right, and it's becoming more and more accepted in the Bitcoin community, that's when it becomes a problem. So I think that,
691
00:52:48.140 --> 00:52:49.280
the false advertising,
692
00:52:49.740 --> 00:52:54.160
you know, not owning not owning up to what it is that your license is.
693
00:52:54.935 --> 00:53:01.595
Again, like, if that's someone's choice, like, that's someone's choice in, the market will decide whether people should be running it or not.
694
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.700
But at the end of the day, right, like,
695
00:53:05.160 --> 00:53:09.100
trying to falsely, like, claim that you're something that you're not is
696
00:53:09.560 --> 00:53:13.475
not ethical, not good to go. There's a lot of issues with
697
00:53:14.095 --> 00:53:19.875
doing pull request and everything else. I know we talked about in DMs, but, you know, a lot of that is
698
00:53:20.380 --> 00:53:23.760
unethical stuff that shouldn't be happening since it's already breaking the license.
699
00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:27.120
So, I mean, that's just part of of it, but,
700
00:53:27.565 --> 00:53:34.625
that's my take is that, you know, don't don't don't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I totally agree with that. I mean, don't call yourself
701
00:53:35.660 --> 00:53:39.920
free and open source if you're using a license, which is, obviously not.
702
00:53:40.300 --> 00:53:46.565
And just fucking go to the open source initiative website, see the list of licenses, and pick 1.
703
00:53:46.945 --> 00:53:48.005
It's that easy.
704
00:53:48.385 --> 00:53:48.885
100%.
705
00:53:49.505 --> 00:53:50.005
Okay.
706
00:53:51.585 --> 00:53:54.369
Taylor or Matt, who wants to go? I'll go.
707
00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:59.270
So well, on the marketing side of things, that that's kind of one other thing that
708
00:53:59.730 --> 00:54:16.829
Umbrel does that has bothered me a little bit. Their whole, like, become Bitcoin thing, I feel like they're just sort of like, it's probably good marketing on their end, but I feel like it's also just sort of disingenuous. Like, they're saying there is nobody else. Like, this is what you do to to, you know, be a Bitcoin user, but there's so much more variety than that and so many more
709
00:54:17.289 --> 00:54:17.789
options
710
00:54:18.089 --> 00:54:21.465
that I just have always felt like that's a little bit disingenuous. But,
711
00:54:22.025 --> 00:54:24.105
so go going back to the license I chose,
712
00:54:24.505 --> 00:54:24.905
it
713
00:54:25.305 --> 00:54:30.045
first of all, let me start off by saying the license I chose was a bad decision. I picked up one random morning because
714
00:54:30.510 --> 00:54:35.250
I needed something, and I was like, okay. I kinda wanna start a company around this. So
715
00:54:35.550 --> 00:54:39.245
what should I pick? And I I chose a license that,
716
00:54:39.725 --> 00:54:43.985
was the it's the Creative Commons ones, and it it didn't allow redistribution.
717
00:54:45.005 --> 00:54:51.500
And at the time, my interpretation of redistribution was what some other licenses call production use,
718
00:54:51.880 --> 00:55:00.535
and so I I don't know. I didn't think much about it. Somebody commented, like, way back at the beginning, like, hey. You shouldn't use this license, and I basically said, oh, yeah. Like, it's,
719
00:55:00.855 --> 00:55:05.089
it's this isn't my intent, but unfortunately, at the time, I didn't,
720
00:55:05.890 --> 00:55:09.349
I didn't change it. So I've since added some custom modifications,
721
00:55:10.175 --> 00:55:11.075
but, honestly
722
00:55:11.695 --> 00:55:16.595
so I'll probably come across maybe as the bad guy here, but I think there are reasons to use
723
00:55:17.055 --> 00:55:18.915
non fully open source licenses.
724
00:55:19.900 --> 00:55:24.880
I think some of it could be protection. I've we've seen some, like, examples in the past where,
725
00:55:25.180 --> 00:55:29.280
like, NDK with cold card, like, it gets forked, and, you know, the fork gets
726
00:55:29.725 --> 00:55:41.080
VC funding from what I've heard, and it's basically just a clone. And then none of that revenue goes back to the founders. The VC investments aren't going to the, like, creative individuals who launched that project
727
00:55:41.620 --> 00:55:46.280
initially. Right? And I think that is who should be benefiting the most. Like, I I don't want
728
00:55:46.744 --> 00:55:55.325
the VC funds or, you know, Google coming in or some huge tech company coming in, like, scooping up, like, open source code that Bitcoin has created,
729
00:55:55.650 --> 00:56:08.075
throwing only a marketing budget at it, and then starting to, like, trick Bitcoin users saying, like, just here's this one quick way to go run a Bitcoin note, but be malicious and, you know, run a BCash note or something instead. Right? I I think
730
00:56:09.335 --> 00:56:22.950
because we are much smaller than some of those large companies. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it's a concern. As Bitcoin starts growing, you're gonna see more and more, you know, projects that are fully open source get forked and potentially,
731
00:56:24.075 --> 00:56:30.015
large companies or entities throw marketing budgets at it and start tricking or confusing users to the point where
732
00:56:31.550 --> 00:56:33.010
people can be malicious.
733
00:56:33.310 --> 00:56:39.730
And I don't know the perfect way to protect from that, but I think it's a it's a risk going forward. I mean, we've seen it just with Bitcoin Forks. Like,
734
00:56:40.095 --> 00:56:40.974
Bitcoin Cash was
735
00:56:41.775 --> 00:56:46.194
I I feel like some of that is is problematic that people go and start saying
736
00:56:46.654 --> 00:56:50.580
dishonest things or they fork the code and say, well, we're really Bitcoin instead.
737
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:53.940
It causes confusion, especially among new users. I mean,
738
00:56:54.640 --> 00:56:59.525
experienced Bitcoin users understand what's going on. I think they get it. But, like, when you go to bitcoin.com
739
00:56:59.825 --> 00:57:02.165
and you click buy and you're not getting Bitcoin,
740
00:57:02.625 --> 00:57:03.445
that's a problem.
741
00:57:03.984 --> 00:57:09.770
And and I don't know if, like, open source licenses are the only way to, like or licensing is the only
742
00:57:10.230 --> 00:57:10.730
underneath,
743
00:57:11.670 --> 00:57:18.655
underlying cause there, but I think, it we could potentially sort of help out that way. And, again, going back to, like, the founders,
744
00:57:20.395 --> 00:57:21.215
I don't know.
745
00:57:21.650 --> 00:57:30.415
They're the creative people that are making the progress. They deserve the benefits and not other, you know, VC funds or large tech companies. So I I think there's,
746
00:57:30.975 --> 00:57:34.595
a huge opportunity for improvement in some, like, middle ground type licenses.
747
00:57:34.975 --> 00:57:41.380
The one that I've been looking at a lot and I really wanna switch to, I haven't done it yet, is the business source license. It basically says,
748
00:57:41.680 --> 00:57:44.980
like, it's it's open source after a point in time,
749
00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:46.260
and you can
750
00:57:47.225 --> 00:57:56.045
kind of it it's you're allowed to redistribute it. You're allowed to fork it. You're allowed to use it for personal use. The problem with the the Umbro license and the one that I had started with was,
751
00:57:56.770 --> 00:58:02.310
that it it it isn't a software license. Right? So it doesn't go into, like, what happens when you fork the project.
752
00:58:02.850 --> 00:58:18.130
Like, there is it just you're kinda not allowed to, but, like, also, you put it on GitHub. So, like, of course, you're expecting people to force fork the project and, like, submit pull requests and things like that. So I I think the business source license is is a good middle ground.
753
00:58:18.775 --> 00:58:19.674
I know some
754
00:58:20.135 --> 00:58:41.605
popular people within, like, the open source community have, you know, maybe they don't fully endorse it, but they do like it. And I think it it sort of helps provide that middle ground of being able to run a company around a project, which a lot of new users also, I think, enjoy and benefit from. They like knowing that there is a person that they're buying a a product from. They enter into, like, sort of a contract or a purchase
755
00:58:42.090 --> 00:58:45.310
with some entity knowing, look, there is,
756
00:58:46.410 --> 00:58:57.765
there's another person out there that can help support this. Like, I can go to a website and, you know, send an email and say, I've got a problem. I need some help. I think a lot of people are comfortable with that approach, and
757
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:05.300
I that's why I think sort of these middle ground licenses of, you know, it is it's open towards, but at the same time,
758
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:30.035
it it gives a company sort of a a heads up short term, like, advantage to be able to build on it and get that sustainability because if it's just open source, like, you always are sort of like, the founder can just kinda go away and, you know, not help out or not support you. So I don't know if other people wanna comment. Yeah. You you you you could also go with a dual license like most commercial open source project do.
759
00:59:33.300 --> 00:59:38.040
So, I mean, you hit you hit, an interesting point there that I do wanna discuss,
760
00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:41.240
next, which is monetization. But before we continue,
761
00:59:42.185 --> 00:59:48.205
we have Matt Hill here from Start 9. I mean, Start 9 and Minode have, the most restrictive licenses
762
00:59:48.825 --> 00:59:51.245
of the projects that are here with us today.
763
00:59:51.690 --> 01:00:00.109
I mean, Umbrel keeps getting brought up. I would say that Umbrel probably has the most disingenuous marketing around it. I don't think Start 9 or Minode
764
01:00:02.315 --> 01:00:05.135
really pretend to be, free open source projects.
765
01:00:05.755 --> 01:00:09.695
But I'm curious on Matt's opinion here before we move on from this discussion.
766
01:00:10.900 --> 01:00:11.720
Yeah. Thanks.
767
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:16.600
So licensing for us, was not approached trivially.
768
01:00:17.300 --> 01:00:21.145
It was a serious topic of discussion in the early days of the company.
769
01:00:21.765 --> 01:00:24.905
We browsed many licenses. We had long discussions
770
01:00:25.609 --> 01:00:27.450
and ultimately wrote our own,
771
01:00:27.849 --> 01:00:31.470
license that borrowed from a few of the ones that were out there.
772
01:00:32.730 --> 01:00:33.710
We view licensing
773
01:00:34.375 --> 01:00:36.474
as a means to an end,
774
01:00:37.015 --> 01:00:38.714
not as an end in itself.
775
01:00:40.214 --> 01:00:40.954
Our goal
776
01:00:41.700 --> 01:00:44.680
is to create a new computing paradigm
777
01:00:45.540 --> 01:00:47.880
that will rival and eventually destroy
778
01:00:48.339 --> 01:00:49.160
the centralized,
779
01:00:49.460 --> 01:00:52.395
trusted, hosted model of the Internet today.
780
01:00:53.495 --> 01:00:54.555
That is our goal.
781
01:00:54.855 --> 01:00:57.915
And so we view licensing as one tool in the toolbox
782
01:00:58.615 --> 01:00:59.115
to,
783
01:00:59.815 --> 01:01:00.955
reach that goal.
784
01:01:02.329 --> 01:01:07.710
And at the time, we looked at what the various trade offs were for different licensing approaches
785
01:01:08.605 --> 01:01:10.065
and determined that
786
01:01:10.765 --> 01:01:11.825
the benefits
787
01:01:12.285 --> 01:01:18.460
of a fully FOS license and so first of all, before I continue, let me say that honesty here is critical,
788
01:01:19.240 --> 01:01:22.940
that we have in never way and will in never way misrepresent
789
01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:24.220
our product,
790
01:01:25.080 --> 01:01:25.820
our license,
791
01:01:26.315 --> 01:01:28.095
or our goals to our users,
792
01:01:28.474 --> 01:01:29.295
to our investors,
793
01:01:30.795 --> 01:01:31.935
or anybody else.
794
01:01:32.395 --> 01:01:32.895
So
795
01:01:34.520 --> 01:01:35.180
our goals,
796
01:01:35.640 --> 01:01:36.859
with our license
797
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:39.900
were to, I forget who it was earlier,
798
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:44.185
stated the the sort of 3 slash 4 freedoms of an open source,
799
01:01:44.745 --> 01:01:46.525
fully free and open source license.
800
01:01:47.065 --> 01:01:48.685
One is that the source is available.
801
01:01:49.625 --> 01:01:53.360
Obviously, we viewed this as critical. It was basically a nonstarter.
802
01:01:53.900 --> 01:01:57.520
In the 1st couple months, our source code was closed source,
803
01:01:57.820 --> 01:01:59.600
strictly for security reasons,
804
01:02:00.295 --> 01:02:16.050
and because nobody was using our software. So we wanted to make sure that it was good, and at least good enough. We know that the community can find bugs and that in the long run, having it open is actually more secure. But we started with a closed source, lice you know, no license. We're just closed.
805
01:02:16.575 --> 01:02:19.395
And then we opened it up once we had our licensing strategy,
806
01:02:20.975 --> 01:02:21.875
ironed out.
807
01:02:22.495 --> 01:02:25.395
We think that it's critical. However, I do want to mention
808
01:02:25.890 --> 01:02:29.029
that making the source code available
809
01:02:29.410 --> 01:02:31.349
for purposes of auditability
810
01:02:32.049 --> 01:02:34.470
was actually not the primary motivation
811
01:02:35.105 --> 01:02:36.145
for us open
812
01:02:36.945 --> 01:02:40.485
making our source code available. Yeah. I won't say open source.
813
01:02:40.865 --> 01:02:44.119
We need some definitions around these things so that we have a nuanced conversation
814
01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:48.840
and not argue semantics. But for we opened up our code base
815
01:02:49.380 --> 01:02:53.325
not primarily for the purpose so that people could audit it, Because realistically,
816
01:02:54.265 --> 01:03:07.230
you know, we probably could have gone after some of the most trusted people in the industry and said, hey. Come audit our code. People trust you. They know you'll never lie to them. Audit it, and then tell everyone that it's fine, and probably still build a big business. So we didn't necessarily
817
01:03:07.530 --> 01:03:08.030
view,
818
01:03:08.809 --> 01:03:13.975
the open source as a necessity to build great software and a big business,
819
01:03:15.155 --> 01:03:22.650
but we felt that it was better. So it's a nice benefit. The primary reason that we open sourced our code was to protect ourselves
820
01:03:23.270 --> 01:03:24.490
against coercion
821
01:03:25.030 --> 01:03:26.170
from potential
822
01:03:26.944 --> 01:03:38.870
antagonists. Right? So we did not want a 3 letter agency walking into our office and saying, great product you've got here. Build in a backdoor, and, oh, here's a gag order. By open sourcing the code, we were strategically
823
01:03:39.170 --> 01:03:41.830
protecting ourselves against that type of,
824
01:03:42.530 --> 01:03:43.030
attack.
825
01:03:43.545 --> 01:03:49.325
So that was the main reason. 2nd reason was for auditability and and because it's the right thing to do, and that's that.
826
01:03:50.105 --> 01:03:51.885
Now second one, modification.
827
01:03:53.490 --> 01:03:56.869
We you know, the primary purpose of having a
828
01:03:57.329 --> 01:03:59.349
license that enables modification
829
01:04:00.075 --> 01:04:02.255
is so that you can get community contributions.
830
01:04:03.435 --> 01:04:04.175
That is
831
01:04:04.475 --> 01:04:11.040
the the primary reason. Right? It's like you have limited capacity and you want help from others, so your license should allow others to help you.
832
01:04:11.420 --> 01:04:13.760
And our license does. Right? Our license,
833
01:04:14.460 --> 01:04:15.280
in short,
834
01:04:15.984 --> 01:04:24.244
grants grants the right to access, audit, copy, modify, compile, or distribute the source code or modifications to the source code.
835
01:04:24.619 --> 01:04:29.599
So we have created a license that allows people to fork our code,
836
01:04:30.380 --> 01:04:31.200
make it better,
837
01:04:31.885 --> 01:04:37.665
and open up a pull request and etcetera. And we have had multiple contributors from the open source community
838
01:04:37.965 --> 01:04:39.025
come in and
839
01:04:39.349 --> 01:04:39.849
contribute.
840
01:04:40.390 --> 01:04:42.089
So that has been valuable.
841
01:04:42.869 --> 01:04:44.410
The third one, distribution.
842
01:04:45.510 --> 01:04:51.095
This one gets a little bit of an asterisk, because it's what exactly are you distributing. Right? The purpose of
843
01:04:51.395 --> 01:04:53.415
allowing distribution in a license
844
01:04:53.954 --> 01:04:55.290
is that it acts as an
845
01:04:55.850 --> 01:04:57.390
as an insurance policy
846
01:04:57.850 --> 01:05:13.305
against the upstream project. So, for example, if you make modifications to this to the Embassy OS source code, and we're like, no. We're not merging that. We don't like that. But it's, like, super important and critical, and we've just gone evil.
847
01:05:13.765 --> 01:05:14.265
And
848
01:05:14.600 --> 01:05:19.820
your inability to distribute that code basically means that the project is dead or hijacked.
849
01:05:20.200 --> 01:05:25.925
And so the ability to distribute modifications of the code is an insurance policy against the original team
850
01:05:26.464 --> 01:05:27.445
that built it.
851
01:05:27.825 --> 01:05:31.365
If there's more to it, please let me know, but that's sort of how I see that.
852
01:05:32.540 --> 01:05:35.920
And so what we do is we found a interesting
853
01:05:36.220 --> 01:05:37.819
little middle ground there,
854
01:05:38.140 --> 01:05:41.095
to accomplish our goals, is that we allow the distribution,
855
01:05:41.395 --> 01:05:42.055
the redistribution
856
01:05:42.995 --> 01:05:50.430
of our source code. So you can fork our code, make modifications to it, and distribute it all your friends and family.
857
01:05:51.130 --> 01:05:52.590
The only thing that we prohibit
858
01:05:53.130 --> 01:05:54.030
is the distribution
859
01:05:54.570 --> 01:05:55.070
of
860
01:05:55.530 --> 01:05:56.350
the compiled
861
01:05:56.845 --> 01:06:05.665
code, of the object code, or of an another device running the modifications that you made, essentially preventing you from commercializing,
862
01:06:08.230 --> 01:06:08.890
our work.
863
01:06:09.510 --> 01:06:11.770
And that is the 4th thing, is the commercialization.
864
01:06:12.869 --> 01:06:13.849
And commercialization
865
01:06:15.115 --> 01:06:16.415
of open source software,
866
01:06:16.875 --> 01:06:24.815
I think, acts as an incentive for numbers 23. Right? It's like, if you give people the right to commercialize your code,
867
01:06:25.230 --> 01:06:26.450
then you are incentivizing
868
01:06:26.750 --> 01:06:32.289
them to contribute to your code and distribute your code. But
869
01:06:32.625 --> 01:06:34.085
if you don't need
870
01:06:34.625 --> 01:06:35.365
their contributions
871
01:06:35.825 --> 01:06:36.645
and you don't
872
01:06:37.025 --> 01:06:37.525
necessarily
873
01:06:37.825 --> 01:06:41.125
want their distributions because you're trying to build a business,
874
01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:42.180
then commercialization
875
01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:45.780
becomes the way that you, in a way, disincentivize
876
01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:47.060
those things.
877
01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:53.015
So that's a huge trade off. We were like, crap. Okay. If we prohibit people from commercializing
878
01:06:53.315 --> 01:06:54.055
our code,
879
01:06:54.755 --> 01:06:56.295
then we are going to
880
01:06:57.109 --> 01:06:57.609
definitely,
881
01:06:58.390 --> 01:07:00.890
prohibit or not prohibit, but disincentivize
882
01:07:01.190 --> 01:07:06.855
people from distributing our code because they can only distribute it as source code, which is not super valuable to grandma.
883
01:07:07.635 --> 01:07:08.375
And 2,
884
01:07:08.675 --> 01:07:09.975
we are partially,
885
01:07:10.355 --> 01:07:12.135
maybe, to some degree, disincentivizing
886
01:07:12.675 --> 01:07:13.175
modifications,
887
01:07:13.475 --> 01:07:13.975
because
888
01:07:14.390 --> 01:07:20.730
now the only reason someone would want to modify our code is to contribute to the upstream repo
889
01:07:21.109 --> 01:07:31.435
or to modify it for their own personal use. But they're definitely not gonna modify it so that they can make money off of it because we prohibited making money off of it. So we sort of said, okay.
890
01:07:32.230 --> 01:07:36.890
We get it. We're we're not gonna get as many community contributions as we otherwise would.
891
01:07:37.190 --> 01:07:38.730
However, we have
892
01:07:39.205 --> 01:07:39.945
an incredible
893
01:07:40.805 --> 01:07:43.625
large team of developers in house.
894
01:07:44.165 --> 01:07:50.240
And so we felt that at this point in our history, and this can change, by the way. Right? This is an evolving
895
01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:54.960
thing for us. But at this point in our history, we felt that we had
896
01:07:55.425 --> 01:07:55.925
the,
897
01:07:57.185 --> 01:07:59.605
skills and knowledge and muscle
898
01:07:59.985 --> 01:08:02.645
to build everything that we wanted to build,
899
01:08:02.950 --> 01:08:07.450
and that the diminishing returns of adding more community developers
900
01:08:07.830 --> 01:08:14.155
had basically already been reached. Right? Like, if 10 developers showed up today, and we're just like, how can we help?
901
01:08:14.455 --> 01:08:17.355
40 you know, full time, as much as you need, everything,
902
01:08:17.735 --> 01:08:25.270
I couldn't keep them busy because most of what we're building right now has to exist in just a couple of brains because it's
903
01:08:25.570 --> 01:08:27.270
still in the early architectural
904
01:08:27.570 --> 01:08:32.285
days. I don't we can't put that many open source developers to work.
905
01:08:32.665 --> 01:08:38.265
So we accepted the trade off, and we said, alright. In the early days, it's more important for us to protect,
906
01:08:39.380 --> 01:08:43.000
what we think is a awesome platform and a great business.
907
01:08:43.540 --> 01:08:58.030
And over time, if we start to go, oh my god, this thing's getting huge and it's becoming critical to to earth, right, cross your fingers, we can only hope, then, yes, we may reconsider our licensing and blow the top off and let anything go
908
01:08:58.330 --> 01:09:02.910
if the trade offs are there. So I just wanna make it clear to everybody that our decision
909
01:09:03.665 --> 01:09:09.685
to use a non FOST license was not taken lightly. It was taken extremely strategically,
910
01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:12.540
and is always open
911
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:13.740
to reconsideration
912
01:09:14.200 --> 01:09:24.845
depending on its the license's ability to contribute to our eventual goal of upending the bullshit centralized system that has come to dominate this planet. Thank you. That's all.
913
01:09:27.770 --> 01:09:28.270
Yep.
914
01:09:28.809 --> 01:09:32.750
The the only thing I wanted to add is, I think one of the biggest
915
01:09:33.210 --> 01:09:34.510
differences between
916
01:09:35.425 --> 01:09:39.365
some of the projects that don't, like, start 9 or Umbrella's
917
01:09:39.905 --> 01:09:41.765
starting out a company with a
918
01:09:42.145 --> 01:09:42.965
clear intent
919
01:09:44.030 --> 01:09:49.650
of business. Right? I mean, like, obviously, it sounds like you guys are took your licensing very serious.
920
01:09:50.725 --> 01:09:52.505
And that a lot of that comes from
921
01:09:52.885 --> 01:09:53.785
people who,
922
01:09:54.965 --> 01:09:59.865
are trying to start a major business and a major future, and it sounds like you wanna protect it.
923
01:10:00.790 --> 01:10:01.290
My
924
01:10:01.830 --> 01:10:02.570
my counterargument
925
01:10:03.270 --> 01:10:08.650
to that and to some of what Taylor was saying about, you know, protecting your stuff and worrying about,
926
01:10:09.125 --> 01:10:12.585
you know, VC funding and whatever. Right? At the end of the day,
927
01:10:13.525 --> 01:10:14.824
all that is is competition.
928
01:10:15.445 --> 01:10:16.344
Right? It's
929
01:10:17.090 --> 01:10:20.470
it's, hey, someone took my code. They made
930
01:10:20.850 --> 01:10:31.605
it and did this other stuff. Some of it's better. Some of it's not. But it's it's competition. And no 2 people, no 2 companies or teams or whatever are going to have the same exact vision. So,
931
01:10:33.070 --> 01:10:33.869
you know, like,
932
01:10:34.510 --> 01:10:43.715
Evan always, like, makes a joke that or Open Arms makes a joke that he's going to fork Ronan and put join in box in there. And that right there is going to completely split the user base, or
933
01:10:44.175 --> 01:10:51.470
it's going to have very little people on his fork, and I'm gonna maintain all mine. Or maybe he had something, like, super cool and beneficial.
934
01:10:51.850 --> 01:10:56.990
And as long as it's open source, I can take it right back. So, like, to me, competition is
935
01:10:58.935 --> 01:11:02.795
it it comes from that false nature. And then the false nature also is what helps people
936
01:11:03.255 --> 01:11:06.395
come back and contribute and help each other and,
937
01:11:07.095 --> 01:11:07.595
make
938
01:11:07.940 --> 01:11:09.080
make things better.
939
01:11:10.100 --> 01:11:16.575
You know, and, obviously, it sounds like people are still doing that with starting on. I think that's probably because they see a good vision with your guys'
940
01:11:16.975 --> 01:11:20.435
business model and your company's whether you guys are moving forward,
941
01:11:20.815 --> 01:11:28.350
which I think there's something to say about the actual idea that you guys are putting forward of self hosting sovereign apps. I think that's pretty cool.
942
01:11:29.930 --> 01:11:35.845
But I think that when it comes down to it, right, like, I don't care so much if someone forks my code.
943
01:11:37.025 --> 01:11:39.685
Even if I was, you know, top dog and and
944
01:11:40.065 --> 01:11:41.205
running dojo is,
945
01:11:41.510 --> 01:11:50.595
you know, making 1,000,000 of dollars a year, if someone were to take the code, like, they're gonna that's only incentive for me to make it better. You know, it's I can cry about
946
01:11:51.135 --> 01:12:02.930
it, or I can say, alright. Cool. Like, you you forked it. Now you're selling it. That's cool. Alright. Well, what are you doing different? And no one's gonna know your code better than you. So they can try to fork it. They can try to do whatever they want.
947
01:12:03.630 --> 01:12:14.045
But, hey. Like, I'm gonna come back, and then I'm gonna find out what you're doing different. And if it's better, I'm gonna take it. And if it's not better, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna make something even better, cooler,
948
01:12:14.470 --> 01:12:18.730
faster, run better. I don't know. Whatever I'm gonna do is gonna be better because
949
01:12:19.110 --> 01:12:20.489
competition's in my nature.
950
01:12:20.790 --> 01:12:22.410
All I'm going to do is
951
01:12:22.965 --> 01:12:26.825
destroy you. So, like, if you are gonna fork the code, like, I'm going to end you.
952
01:12:28.645 --> 01:12:29.285
Yeah. That's,
953
01:12:30.120 --> 01:12:37.980
I mean, like, when I say end you, if you're gonna fork my code and try to compete against me, you know, like, if I was NVK, not not that we wanna use this, but it's a popular
954
01:12:38.925 --> 01:12:43.825
talking point. If I was NVK, I wouldn't have changed my license. I would have said,
955
01:12:44.525 --> 01:12:45.140
screw it.
956
01:12:45.620 --> 01:12:52.635
Let's let's battle. Like, let's fight. And then I would have made my shit so much better, and it would have been the end of that. You know?
957
01:12:53.114 --> 01:12:57.934
But that's just me. I'm not saying what he did. I mean, yeah, I am saying what it was a cop out. But,
958
01:12:58.875 --> 01:13:06.370
I think that I think that that's gotta be our mindset because that's what it is. You know? Like, we are most of us didn't start these node projects
959
01:13:06.989 --> 01:13:07.489
because
960
01:13:08.025 --> 01:13:09.325
we wanted to get rich.
961
01:13:10.345 --> 01:13:12.365
Most of us started with this, like,
962
01:13:12.825 --> 01:13:18.760
hey. I wanna give back to the community. I know that I know a 100% that's a fact for open arms and,
963
01:13:19.620 --> 01:13:27.605
and Ruzole for RAS by blitz. I know, Taylor, you started that way as well. I'm sure, Keto, you started that way over at Noble.
964
01:13:28.545 --> 01:13:38.595
And I think it's a new era of nodes that are gonna come in. I don't think start 9, you're gonna be the the last one. I don't think Umbrel's gonna be the last one. I think VCs are gonna see it as an
965
01:13:48.520 --> 01:13:51.659
And so, yeah, is that more work on the,
966
01:13:52.440 --> 01:14:01.775
the node the node software developers? Yeah. Absolutely. Like, that means that we're not going to get that funding because they don't want open source or at least in that open source nature.
967
01:14:03.035 --> 01:14:03.535
So,
968
01:14:03.995 --> 01:14:11.139
yeah, like, I I don't really care so much about VC funding because that's not why I did it. I did it to give back and give tools to the community.
969
01:14:12.445 --> 01:14:14.865
Is it sustainable? I mean, that's sustainability
970
01:14:15.245 --> 01:14:16.705
is completely up to
971
01:14:17.085 --> 01:14:25.090
to the developers. Right? Like, what business model are you going to run? What business model are you going to do that is going to be able to sustain yourself and your team
972
01:14:25.390 --> 01:14:26.290
while growing?
973
01:14:27.310 --> 01:14:30.770
And that is the trick, and that's how you guys end up doing it.
974
01:14:32.425 --> 01:14:36.045
But that's just my, like, final thoughts on all of it. Extremely
975
01:14:36.505 --> 01:14:40.525
well put, Zelco. Just gonna jump in here real quick before I let Matt respond.
976
01:14:42.430 --> 01:14:49.170
I I I just first of all, you know, NVK is a friend, and he's been on the pod many times. He's been on dispatch many times,
977
01:14:50.605 --> 01:14:54.705
and I've told him point blank on dispatch exactly what you just said.
978
01:14:55.645 --> 01:15:00.385
So so the the this is not something that is being, like, talked behind his back or whatnot,
979
01:15:01.550 --> 01:15:06.929
And I just wanna reiterate something that Zelko just said is is in this world of censorship resistance,
980
01:15:07.710 --> 01:15:09.250
specifically state resistance,
981
01:15:10.495 --> 01:15:10.995
You
982
01:15:11.375 --> 01:15:18.595
know, free open source software is extremely viral and censorship resistant because the code outlives any of the individual contributors.
983
01:15:19.630 --> 01:15:23.810
And I feel like it's a point that is is not really stated enough, and I just wanted to,
984
01:15:24.190 --> 01:15:29.804
make that clear to the freaks. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so bullish on Bitcoin as a project as a whole,
985
01:15:30.744 --> 01:15:31.965
because, you know,
986
01:15:32.505 --> 01:15:35.645
extremely grateful for all the contributors we have to to Bitcoin,
987
01:15:37.040 --> 01:15:40.500
but it's bigger than any of them individually, and the code continues on.
988
01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:46.575
Yeah. I'm glad. That was a good point, and Diverter actually said something that really
989
01:15:46.955 --> 01:15:52.350
hit that point home. I mean, he used the running dojo team for whatever reason, but he said,
990
01:15:52.890 --> 01:16:07.545
yeah. If, like, the whole Roman Dojo team died, you know, tomorrow, right, someone could fork our project and it would live on. You know? And that, like, that goes right with your point. I think that's that's one of the most important things. You know? I mean, look at Bitcoin Core. Right?
991
01:16:08.200 --> 01:16:09.740
But yeah. Sorry. Go ahead, Matt.
992
01:16:11.160 --> 01:16:14.380
Yeah. Maybe maybe I can jump in. Not sure so far.
993
01:16:15.255 --> 01:16:16.935
Go go for it. Yeah.
994
01:16:17.335 --> 01:16:28.280
Just wanna drop some some some some ideas here because we were talking about free and having licenses, and you have ownership that you're you're keeping property here. You get a licensor.
995
01:16:28.900 --> 01:16:30.785
Interesting thing. There's a sender in there.
996
01:16:31.585 --> 01:16:38.370
The sensor ring is kinda part. Okay. That should be just a bad joke. But, in the end, it's I don't wanna come across that
997
01:16:39.330 --> 01:16:39.810
that that,
998
01:16:40.930 --> 01:16:42.950
everything has to be free and there's
999
01:16:44.050 --> 01:16:58.300
no business to make or something. Maybe take a look. Open source is not young. And there was even this mentioning from from Umbral dev, like, oh, open source is 30 year old. We maybe need to do something different here to have sustainable projects.
1000
01:16:58.600 --> 01:16:59.960
But that's not really true.
1001
01:17:00.360 --> 01:17:07.385
We look at the examples that were named, like, like Redis switched to non open source or MongoDB or or MariaDB.
1002
01:17:07.925 --> 01:17:11.525
Redis is still in its in its core. It is still,
1003
01:17:11.925 --> 01:17:12.665
open source.
1004
01:17:13.270 --> 01:17:18.410
But they have a module that they put a little bit different license on, and this is kind of an extra service
1005
01:17:18.790 --> 01:17:26.855
they need for enterprise kind of things. So this is where then they maybe see their opportunity. So they do this on the side. Same thing is for MariaDB,
1006
01:17:27.315 --> 01:17:31.230
which are coming to business source license IDEA from. They still MariaDB,
1007
01:17:32.330 --> 01:17:40.815
the database is still open source. There's just some some extra programs on the side you need for enterprise use that they change the license a bit. So
1008
01:17:41.195 --> 01:17:50.860
those things can be discussed if you have a core product that's open source, and you maybe have something for special enterprises to use and you make make there a different license. It's discussable.
1009
01:17:51.720 --> 01:18:02.475
But but again, we're talking about full node projects here. And and we really have to to to think about when we bought especially about Bitcoin. And then, Bitcoin is so important to have this freedom to fork.
1010
01:18:03.095 --> 01:18:11.890
And and how you can make money again is is is, look at open source projects. For example, the MongoDB, it was was was an example that switched to,
1011
01:18:12.510 --> 01:18:13.730
to non open source
1012
01:18:14.065 --> 01:18:18.565
license to, to protect against being exploited by those big companies.
1013
01:18:18.865 --> 01:18:20.485
MongoDB made a $100,000,000
1014
01:18:22.145 --> 01:18:22.645
revenue
1015
01:18:23.220 --> 01:18:33.625
still being when they were open source, but they switched to non open source to make more money. So this was sustainable. It was just an idea from the CEO of this company,
1016
01:18:34.324 --> 01:18:43.770
to to make more money. And it's it's fair, but okay. Do it. But but again, it's not that that you have to have this idea. If I'm open source, I will starve.
1017
01:18:44.150 --> 01:18:49.290
You can build business models around your your your thing. Build for example, build a strong trademark.
1018
01:18:49.615 --> 01:18:50.975
This is, for example, what,
1019
01:18:52.015 --> 01:18:53.155
what Firefox
1020
01:18:53.695 --> 01:18:57.315
is for is is is Firefox is a trademark. This is owned
1021
01:18:57.719 --> 01:18:59.500
by, by by a foundation.
1022
01:19:00.280 --> 01:19:02.140
And what you can do is,
1023
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:21.179
is really do license deals still. So, for example, Umbrel was telling they don't wanna change to open source because they wanna do license deals. You can still make license deals if somebody wants to put on their project comes with Umbrel. This is a trademark. And to put this on your product, you can make a license deal while having the code completely open source.
1024
01:19:21.505 --> 01:19:24.165
Sure. Somebody can then take the code, call it something
1025
01:19:24.465 --> 01:19:37.755
else, and and and make money with this. This is a danger. But, again, especially a project that's so good at marketing like Umbrel, I don't personally get why they don't trust their marketing and to build up their brand while they give out their code for free,
1026
01:19:38.635 --> 01:19:43.534
and and we'll be open source and they spare them this complete mess that that that gets produced.
1027
01:19:43.835 --> 01:19:45.695
Because also something to remember,
1028
01:19:46.060 --> 01:20:01.560
if you have, if you're a small company, when a big company wants to use your code or copy your idea, they will do it in 2 weeks or something. They put their development department there and they will just see, oh, this works this way. Okay. We'll reprogram this again. And they will just outcompete you on that
1029
01:20:02.120 --> 01:20:03.420
way anyway. So
1030
01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:21.130
this idea of, oh, I have to protect my little code here I have against those big people that wanna exploit me. If they come for you, they first walk, they will out lawyer you. They will out develop you. That's not a problem. The thing what you do is really build up this good community brand, a good, really, real brand people,
1031
01:20:21.590 --> 01:20:30.554
put their trust in at least that's a that you have good good leadership on this open source project. And this is something then you can of course monetize in some ways still.
1032
01:20:31.015 --> 01:20:34.475
So I just wanna put those ideas out. It's not about open sources,
1033
01:20:34.840 --> 01:20:37.660
communism, and you cannot make money out of it or something.
1034
01:20:38.120 --> 01:20:38.620
Really,
1035
01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:42.700
see really where it's where it's reasonable. And if you do your own licenses,
1036
01:20:43.224 --> 01:20:45.885
really, here comes the point. You you
1037
01:20:46.264 --> 01:20:54.070
no. Don't roll your own license because in the end, when you really can't get into a conflict, the lawyers will earn more than the open source developers on this thing.
1038
01:20:54.530 --> 01:21:04.415
Because this is so costly if you get in those details. You have to pay big lawyers or whatever. If somebody comes for you on that, You will maybe have will not have the the the money to defend that.
1039
01:21:05.114 --> 01:21:11.020
So go with a standard license. It's really something to to to recommend. And especially if if you don't,
1040
01:21:11.640 --> 01:21:14.460
again, if you give up this this this ownership thinking,
1041
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:26.400
you spare a lot of problems because normally with the mister Piguet, if you now have contributors, you would need with everybody would normally need to sign some special agreement or something that this code is now gifted to the company.
1042
01:21:26.700 --> 01:21:30.640
And especially who is this company? Is this well defined? And all those problems.
1043
01:21:31.525 --> 01:21:35.705
Again, you will pay more on lawyers in the end than on open source developers.
1044
01:21:39.470 --> 01:21:42.610
Yeah. I I think you basically said everything I wanted to say.
1045
01:21:43.150 --> 01:21:43.550
But,
1046
01:21:44.190 --> 01:21:46.885
one thing yeah. I I fully agree that the
1047
01:21:47.364 --> 01:21:50.664
there is a history in the Bitcoin world, like, reinventing the wheel.
1048
01:21:51.844 --> 01:21:56.950
Don't invent your own license. It's like inventing your own cryptographic cipher. You probably
1049
01:21:57.650 --> 01:22:00.710
do a big mess and end up in a very bad situation.
1050
01:22:01.730 --> 01:22:09.345
And look at all the open source projects that monetize very well while having a GPO or BSD to close license.
1051
01:22:13.280 --> 01:22:15.699
Alright. I think I think that's why, though, that
1052
01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:22.264
it depends on the business models. And I I agree with a lot of what you just said, but I think depending on the type of company you are,
1053
01:22:22.565 --> 01:22:24.105
it may or may not work.
1054
01:22:24.965 --> 01:22:30.420
I think it's easier to have some of that work at a small scale. I think if you're a huge company, probably
1055
01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:32.179
not so much. I mean,
1056
01:22:32.880 --> 01:22:35.215
imagine if, like, in the early days,
1057
01:22:35.695 --> 01:22:55.074
people are gonna hate this example, but in the early days of Microsoft, like, I I don't think they would have grown if people just had access to all of their source code. I'm not saying that was necessarily the right or wrong wrong thing to do, but if you think about the economic impact of the people that were hired and the onboarding Matt did just for people running personal computers, there's a net benefit from it. And I think,
1058
01:22:56.094 --> 01:23:01.430
the fact that that company was able to grow and hire people and do the marketing and get people into,
1059
01:23:02.050 --> 01:23:02.550
like,
1060
01:23:03.010 --> 01:23:25.645
having the mindset of, it's okay for me to have, like, a computer in my house and it's not some, you know, crazy, nerdy thing that only a handful of people use. I think there's definitely been lots of benefits in in companies that existed that wouldn't have been able to exist as open source. I think, like but but on the flip side, if you look at Bitcoin, it has to be. Like, if you look at, you know, some of these other projects, they have to be. And that's why I
1061
01:23:26.025 --> 01:23:26.525
think
1062
01:23:26.905 --> 01:23:40.275
it's it's not a, you know, every software project must be FOS type world. I think, you know, there's definitely sort of a spectrum of types of projects that can use different licenses, and I think exploring a middle ground, it
1063
01:23:40.835 --> 01:23:42.455
could be a very valid thing.
1064
01:23:42.995 --> 01:23:58.045
And I think a lot of people would like to see more sort of middle ground type licenses where it's the the community is encouraged to, you know, fork the code, redistribute things, but there are some limitations on, like, a much larger company just taking it and benefiting it and, you know,
1065
01:23:58.745 --> 01:24:00.285
running with misleading marketing.
1066
01:24:00.665 --> 01:24:06.960
I think it would be okay to put some protections in, like, or update licenses to put in some protections for those type of situations.
1067
01:24:07.420 --> 01:24:09.520
Like, I guess the example that I I think about,
1068
01:24:09.900 --> 01:24:17.075
would be, like, if you went to a a world where everything was like, there there literally were no intellectual property rights.
1069
01:24:17.695 --> 01:24:22.275
Everything was sort of the FOSS model for all work that anyone had done. I don't think
1070
01:24:23.300 --> 01:24:32.040
economies would sort of survive that type of world if, like, everyone who invested in a design for a new airplane or car or
1071
01:24:32.795 --> 01:24:42.980
whatever. If it had to be open source and another manufacturer could just pick it up, the idea of only placing value on physical goods and not intellectual goods, I think, is sort of misleading.
1072
01:24:45.120 --> 01:24:54.635
Well, you you're mentioning Microsoft, which is basically the first company that build their business model only on being closed source until then all the operating system came with the source code.
1073
01:24:55.095 --> 01:24:58.869
That's why I price the fact of being source available
1074
01:24:59.170 --> 01:25:00.230
very much because
1075
01:25:00.929 --> 01:25:07.465
until the Microsoft era, everything came with the source code, and you would be you were able to audit it and modify
1076
01:25:18.890 --> 01:25:19.290
I mean
1077
01:25:20.570 --> 01:25:33.125
Yeah. I I a lot. I agree with you. I think it's fantastic software developer. I would love the fact, like, if every software I purchased, you know, came with source code, I could edit it and use it, you know, for personal use, update it, change it. That's that's fantastic.
1078
01:25:33.505 --> 01:25:34.565
But I don't think
1079
01:25:35.989 --> 01:25:38.570
the industry would have progressed as fast
1080
01:25:38.949 --> 01:25:42.170
if companies like Microsoft or Apple hadn't existed.
1081
01:25:42.475 --> 01:25:52.460
And maybe you can argue that you think that's not good or good or whatever or it changed the perception of people's use of software and computers because it was a lot less open. But,
1082
01:25:53.000 --> 01:26:01.235
I I think there I don't know. I just feel like there have been net benefits in them, but not totally all good. I'm not saying all good or all bad. I'm saying there have been net benefits from,
1083
01:26:01.935 --> 01:26:03.235
some different business models.
1084
01:26:04.735 --> 01:26:12.710
And, yeah, like, one of the comments from ideas are like flames. The the this is what I I'm really sort of pretty much fundamentally against.
1085
01:26:13.490 --> 01:26:19.625
People will go say information wants to be free, And I fundamentally disagree with that. I think there are valid
1086
01:26:20.085 --> 01:26:28.400
arguments for intellectual property rights. And say, if you're like an architect and you design a house, the fact that you can't sell designs or you can't sell concepts
1087
01:26:28.940 --> 01:26:32.480
to other people to go implement or manufacture, I think, is just
1088
01:26:33.020 --> 01:26:33.600
a fundamentally,
1089
01:26:33.980 --> 01:26:35.120
like, wrong perspective.
1090
01:26:37.185 --> 01:26:39.364
You always need to stay to defend that. Right?
1091
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:43.500
Sorry,
1092
01:26:44.480 --> 01:26:45.580
It's funny.
1093
01:26:46.280 --> 01:26:46.780
It's
1094
01:26:47.800 --> 01:26:51.020
funny you mentioned airplanes, actually, because I I
1095
01:26:51.465 --> 01:26:55.085
worked closely to Airbus in some time of my career. And,
1096
01:26:56.185 --> 01:27:03.580
as you might know, Airbus is selling airplanes to China, and the only way to sell to China is to give them all the plans to build things themselves.
1097
01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:10.140
And, actually, Chinese are totally unable to build even screws up to specs.
1098
01:27:10.665 --> 01:27:14.925
So the screws are shipped from Europe to China because we are not able to make them.
1099
01:27:15.705 --> 01:27:18.765
So I think really think there are other ways to monetize
1100
01:27:19.290 --> 01:27:19.870
than protect your
1101
01:27:20.250 --> 01:27:20.750
IP.
1102
01:27:23.370 --> 01:27:26.590
Just be better. May I may I jump back in here too?
1103
01:27:29.115 --> 01:27:29.615
So
1104
01:27:30.395 --> 01:27:34.175
to reiterate something before and in light of the conversation that's happened since,
1105
01:27:35.755 --> 01:27:45.520
I think everyone here can probably agree that that licensing itself, right, this idea that if you have this license, you're sort of good and moral,
1106
01:27:46.115 --> 01:27:55.095
you're gonna win. And if you have that license, you're bad and evil, and you're not gonna win. I don't think that anyone would make that statement, that I think what we're arguing here is strategy. We're talking about
1107
01:27:55.570 --> 01:27:58.470
licensing as a strategy to achieve an end.
1108
01:27:58.930 --> 01:27:59.430
And
1109
01:27:59.890 --> 01:28:10.855
I think we all want the same ends here. There's a reason we're in Bitcoin. There's a reason we're building do it yourself self hosted software in Bitcoin notes. It's because we want to create this free world.
1110
01:28:12.114 --> 01:28:14.534
And so we are taking different strategies.
1111
01:28:14.920 --> 01:28:20.380
And I appreciate this discussion because, like I said, our internal conversation is ongoing,
1112
01:28:20.920 --> 01:28:23.180
and I can totally see a future
1113
01:28:23.625 --> 01:28:25.485
where a different licensing strategy,
1114
01:28:26.425 --> 01:28:28.605
becomes very important for us.
1115
01:28:29.625 --> 01:28:33.324
But when we decided on the license that we decided today, we took a look
1116
01:28:33.850 --> 01:28:37.710
at the actual landscape that we were dealing with, both internally
1117
01:28:38.090 --> 01:28:38.670
and externally.
1118
01:28:39.050 --> 01:28:44.155
We evaluated our strengths, our weaknesses. We evaluated the state of the marketplace,
1119
01:28:45.175 --> 01:28:48.395
and we decided that at this moment in time,
1120
01:28:49.200 --> 01:28:52.340
the protection against the, you know first of all,
1121
01:28:52.640 --> 01:28:53.860
makes wonderful points.
1122
01:28:54.240 --> 01:28:56.100
The protection against the big bad,
1123
01:28:56.425 --> 01:29:02.365
you know, companies that are great at marketing coming in and stealing all your stuff has largely been disproven by many projects.
1124
01:29:02.905 --> 01:29:06.250
It has also been proven by many projects that it can happen.
1125
01:29:07.210 --> 01:29:09.070
First, you know, I can point to,
1126
01:29:10.330 --> 01:29:13.070
everyone will acknowledge that there are many
1127
01:29:13.690 --> 01:29:14.830
false projects
1128
01:29:15.405 --> 01:29:17.185
out there that are scams,
1129
01:29:17.725 --> 01:29:22.225
that are shit, or that go completely, you know, underdeveloped
1130
01:29:22.925 --> 01:29:24.545
and just sort of die of obscurity.
1131
01:29:25.210 --> 01:29:28.510
There are also many closed source totally proprietary
1132
01:29:28.889 --> 01:29:34.750
pieces of technology that have been built over the years that have advanced humanity, that have been a net positive for everybody.
1133
01:29:35.435 --> 01:29:35.935
And
1134
01:29:36.235 --> 01:29:41.615
so that alone, the statement alone that the good or evil aspect of this conversation
1135
01:29:41.995 --> 01:29:42.655
is not
1136
01:29:43.300 --> 01:29:48.760
contained to which license you choose. It's about what you build, who you build it for, how you build it.
1137
01:29:49.860 --> 01:29:50.760
And that licensing
1138
01:29:51.895 --> 01:29:52.715
is a strategy
1139
01:29:53.175 --> 01:29:55.514
towards that. And I am you know,
1140
01:29:55.815 --> 01:29:57.915
I and the rest of the start 9 team,
1141
01:29:58.855 --> 01:30:05.900
are you know, we lean very far towards the, you know, software should be totally free
1142
01:30:06.280 --> 01:30:06.780
side.
1143
01:30:07.320 --> 01:30:10.060
But at this moment in time, to achieve our ends,
1144
01:30:10.395 --> 01:30:12.335
we feel that it is more important
1145
01:30:12.795 --> 01:30:14.094
to protect ourselves,
1146
01:30:15.355 --> 01:30:16.494
in certain ways
1147
01:30:16.795 --> 01:30:17.775
than to
1148
01:30:18.139 --> 01:30:19.360
garner the benefits
1149
01:30:19.739 --> 01:30:23.440
that would come along with blowing the roof off of our licensing.
1150
01:30:24.139 --> 01:30:24.540
And,
1151
01:30:25.020 --> 01:30:32.235
that could change. Right? So one point that you made, Rizal, was that if they're coming after you, like, if they identify that what you've done is valuable,
1152
01:30:32.935 --> 01:30:34.795
then they'll just come in and do it.
1153
01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:43.260
I don't know if that applies here. I I agree that in general, that could be a a that is usually a true statement,
1154
01:30:43.905 --> 01:30:49.845
But something unique is happening here. Right? So first of all, what we're doing is extremely complex.
1155
01:30:51.170 --> 01:30:54.710
I I don't mean to over speak this, but, like,
1156
01:30:55.090 --> 01:30:57.670
we are doing things that have never been done before.
1157
01:30:58.289 --> 01:31:04.625
Embassy OS is is not a shell script that installs things, and that statement is in no way meant to diminish anything else.
1158
01:31:05.085 --> 01:31:06.945
But it is extremely complex,
1159
01:31:07.405 --> 01:31:12.730
for and it is full stack. Right? It's all the way down to hardware and all the way up to application development.
1160
01:31:13.590 --> 01:31:14.730
And I would challenge,
1161
01:31:15.270 --> 01:31:21.125
some of those companies to catch up with us. I I very much would, and I think that they would have a very hard time of it.
1162
01:31:21.505 --> 01:31:23.844
And so I'm less concerned about
1163
01:31:24.340 --> 01:31:25.800
them stealing our tech
1164
01:31:26.180 --> 01:31:29.240
than I am about them using their marketing power
1165
01:31:29.620 --> 01:31:31.080
to steal our
1166
01:31:31.545 --> 01:31:40.870
code that's already built, as in we are terrible marketers. Okay? We're not humble. We do not have a good website. We do not have a super sexy, approachable,
1167
01:31:41.170 --> 01:31:42.390
modern UI.
1168
01:31:42.850 --> 01:31:44.950
Our stuff is dark. It is simple,
1169
01:31:45.330 --> 01:31:53.925
and it, you know, it works, but we're not good at marketing. We acknowledge that. So we felt that it was more important to protect ourselves on the marketing front than the tech front currently.
1170
01:31:56.145 --> 01:31:56.645
And,
1171
01:31:57.265 --> 01:31:59.125
you know, that could change.
1172
01:31:59.640 --> 01:32:01.660
Hopefully, that that will change someday,
1173
01:32:02.360 --> 01:32:05.020
and that the licensing strategy will adapt accordingly.
1174
01:32:07.055 --> 01:32:08.895
Oh, can I just quickly comment on
1175
01:32:09.535 --> 01:32:17.400
I mean, that's that's that that is great? And you you continue to mention that, you know, it it can change, and I hope it will change. So, basically,
1176
01:32:17.780 --> 01:32:21.400
I I've I've been knowing a lot of people been approaching
1177
01:32:21.885 --> 01:32:25.345
software development like this. So when it's ready, we will open source it.
1178
01:32:25.805 --> 01:32:26.305
And,
1179
01:32:26.685 --> 01:32:29.425
yeah, I understand that you have not not having
1180
01:32:31.670 --> 01:32:35.449
the confidence to make it to to focus on marketing for now.
1181
01:32:35.750 --> 01:32:37.289
And that is I mean,
1182
01:32:37.590 --> 01:32:38.809
yeah, I might I might
1183
01:32:39.565 --> 01:32:40.065
misinterpreting
1184
01:32:40.445 --> 01:32:41.245
your words, but,
1185
01:32:41.965 --> 01:32:45.585
the the point is not that. But what I'm trying trying to
1186
01:32:46.579 --> 01:32:50.360
say, and that's partially replying to Taylor as well, that
1187
01:32:51.780 --> 01:32:54.039
there is no it's practically impossible
1188
01:32:54.824 --> 01:32:55.965
to enforce ownership
1189
01:32:56.344 --> 01:32:56.844
on
1190
01:32:57.625 --> 01:32:59.804
code which is published.
1191
01:33:00.425 --> 01:33:01.485
And we know
1192
01:33:01.910 --> 01:33:04.010
that for this use case,
1193
01:33:04.310 --> 01:33:07.130
for Bitcoin, for people exercising their sovereignty,
1194
01:33:08.150 --> 01:33:09.370
it must be published.
1195
01:33:09.945 --> 01:33:11.885
So there is absolutely no point
1196
01:33:12.745 --> 01:33:13.245
putting
1197
01:33:14.105 --> 01:33:17.725
a license on it just for the show because it's despite
1198
01:33:18.250 --> 01:33:19.789
over, in in
1199
01:33:20.889 --> 01:33:23.630
very different from, like, an architect making
1200
01:33:25.845 --> 01:33:26.585
a plan
1201
01:33:26.885 --> 01:33:29.785
or like an artist, you know, unveiling their art.
1202
01:33:30.645 --> 01:33:34.105
It is a unique thing, and that is
1203
01:33:34.700 --> 01:33:38.400
that is the point of it, that it is unique and shouldn't be shown unless
1204
01:33:38.780 --> 01:33:41.360
someone is, you know, paying for it and that is,
1205
01:33:42.175 --> 01:33:48.515
will be hanging on the wall or, you know, will be building up up their house. But this is, you know, code is freely reproducible
1206
01:33:49.220 --> 01:33:53.160
and it just live lives by itself. You create it, and it does
1207
01:33:53.620 --> 01:33:59.145
its job. And for this reason and this is not Photoshop. This is not, you know,
1208
01:33:59.765 --> 01:34:04.665
a a a video editor where you can do unique effects and and there is this kind of creative
1209
01:34:04.965 --> 01:34:15.480
thing in it. It's a tool which needs to be working best. And for it to work, you need to be able to verify down to the letter, and, also, you need to be able to modify and distribute it
1210
01:34:15.804 --> 01:34:17.425
because that's the nature of
1211
01:34:17.725 --> 01:34:18.225
how,
1212
01:34:18.605 --> 01:34:23.985
you know, Bitcoin does work, and that's the reassurance of the of the whole network down to the base.
1213
01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:27.760
Okay. Yeah. I'd I'd like to respond to that too.
1214
01:34:28.160 --> 01:34:29.220
So, you know, Bitcoin
1215
01:34:29.600 --> 01:34:33.895
using Bitcoin as an example of FOSS and how it works, is is a bit
1216
01:34:34.295 --> 01:34:36.555
disingenuous, I think, because Bitcoin has
1217
01:34:37.015 --> 01:34:38.795
a totally unique, heretofore
1218
01:34:39.095 --> 01:34:39.595
unseen
1219
01:34:40.135 --> 01:34:41.030
means of
1220
01:34:41.349 --> 01:34:41.849
compensating
1221
01:34:42.150 --> 01:34:42.949
those who,
1222
01:34:43.429 --> 01:34:47.849
engage with it and participate in it. Right? It has a in it has a currency built in.
1223
01:34:48.150 --> 01:34:49.449
And so, you know,
1224
01:34:50.325 --> 01:34:58.730
contributing to Bitcoin is adding value to Bitcoin. And if you hold Bitcoin, then you're adding value to yourself. So it has this sort of built in incentive system
1225
01:34:59.030 --> 01:35:02.090
that many projects have tried to replicate.
1226
01:35:03.670 --> 01:35:12.855
I shouldn't say that. They haven't actually tried to replicate that. They've they've used that same mechanism to enrich themselves at the expense of those who don't understand what they're doing.
1227
01:35:14.250 --> 01:35:23.745
And so we don't wanna do that. Right? Like, so we we we can't be Bitcoin. Right? We could be VOS, but we can't be Bitcoin. We will never get the kind of engagement,
1228
01:35:24.525 --> 01:35:28.785
and growth that Bitcoin got because we don't have this built in, economic incentive.
1229
01:35:30.180 --> 01:35:31.720
You know, one way that
1230
01:35:32.500 --> 01:35:33.000
most,
1231
01:35:33.460 --> 01:35:35.240
I would argue open source,
1232
01:35:36.580 --> 01:35:37.080
software,
1233
01:35:37.860 --> 01:35:38.680
has monetized
1234
01:35:39.205 --> 01:35:40.265
has been through hosting.
1235
01:35:40.804 --> 01:35:46.425
Right? So, take something like Bitwarden, which we offer on the embassy, which is a password manager.
1236
01:35:47.220 --> 01:35:47.720
Bitwarden
1237
01:35:48.180 --> 01:35:51.880
built open source software, very good open source software,
1238
01:35:52.420 --> 01:35:55.985
knowing, in part, that nobody would self host it,
1239
01:35:56.545 --> 01:36:06.780
because nobody uses the command line to install self hosted software and host it, you know, and sets up port forwarding and static IPs and all of that. People don't do that. Right? By people, I mean 99.9%
1240
01:36:07.239 --> 01:36:08.060
of the population.
1241
01:36:08.520 --> 01:36:16.114
So they knew that they had a viable business even with the source code being open because they would charge people for hosting. And they've had a lot of success with that.
1242
01:36:16.655 --> 01:36:18.434
That's almost laughably,
1243
01:36:19.215 --> 01:36:21.954
oxymoronic profiles. Right? Like, we cannot
1244
01:36:23.280 --> 01:36:25.940
sell a product that is intended to
1245
01:36:26.480 --> 01:36:30.820
augment self hosting while offering hosting services. Like, it it's not only
1246
01:36:31.755 --> 01:36:36.175
hypocritical, it's impossible. Like, we couldn't do it. It it would just be a laughable thing.
1247
01:36:36.795 --> 01:36:38.735
So, like, our ability to monetize
1248
01:36:40.239 --> 01:36:44.739
is very limited. Right? And so currently, our business model is to
1249
01:36:45.280 --> 01:36:48.900
sell the hardware device at a very reasonable markup.
1250
01:36:49.475 --> 01:36:50.775
We have other ideas,
1251
01:36:51.235 --> 01:36:54.215
that we think are very viable of how to make money in the future,
1252
01:36:54.994 --> 01:36:55.494
but
1253
01:36:56.275 --> 01:36:57.094
none of them
1254
01:36:57.795 --> 01:36:58.260
are
1255
01:36:59.940 --> 01:37:05.880
imply a trust in us. Right? Like, we we as a principle, we are building everything such that,
1256
01:37:06.505 --> 01:37:13.165
it is decentralized and trustless. And so the only way that we will ever be able to monetize within that type of paradigm
1257
01:37:13.705 --> 01:37:15.565
is to, sell 2 things.
1258
01:37:17.460 --> 01:37:22.119
One is support, which has been a tried and true means of monetization,
1259
01:37:22.500 --> 01:37:28.835
though not super lucrative, I would argue, except with maybe the exception of Red Hat and a few others that are probably not aware of.
1260
01:37:29.695 --> 01:37:36.330
But, you know, we certainly don't intend to make a boatload of money off support or even fund a large team off of something like that.
1261
01:37:36.950 --> 01:37:42.410
But more and more, we have recognized that the only real way to make money in the decentralized
1262
01:37:43.095 --> 01:37:43.595
future
1263
01:37:44.135 --> 01:37:46.075
without building in your own,
1264
01:37:47.655 --> 01:37:51.835
gas shit coin, and therefore, destroying the project from the outset
1265
01:37:52.180 --> 01:37:55.800
is to sell convenience. Right? Ultimately, you are selling
1266
01:37:56.420 --> 01:37:56.920
convenience
1267
01:37:57.380 --> 01:37:59.400
and community. Right? You're making
1268
01:37:59.925 --> 01:38:00.585
the entire
1269
01:38:00.965 --> 01:38:01.465
experience
1270
01:38:02.005 --> 01:38:04.665
of using your software and using your product
1271
01:38:05.045 --> 01:38:06.905
as convenient as possible.
1272
01:38:07.340 --> 01:38:11.200
So for us, for example, selling a physical embassy
1273
01:38:11.820 --> 01:38:16.640
is not necessary. People can go buy the hardware at the hardware store and do it all themselves,
1274
01:38:17.185 --> 01:38:26.485
but we think most people are too lazy to do that, and so we'll buy the device from us. And we intend to sort of reapply that basic insight over and over and over again.
1275
01:38:27.830 --> 01:38:32.090
Maybe I'm getting a little bit off topic here, so just to bring it back to licensing, it's that,
1276
01:38:32.710 --> 01:38:36.090
you know, we viewed our unique situation
1277
01:38:37.145 --> 01:38:37.645
as
1278
01:38:38.905 --> 01:38:41.245
that we don't have a ton of ways to monetize,
1279
01:38:42.345 --> 01:38:43.885
and that we need
1280
01:38:44.460 --> 01:38:45.120
to protect
1281
01:38:45.740 --> 01:38:51.040
the essential value proposition that we are making to the world, which is our advanced
1282
01:38:51.655 --> 01:38:56.875
code and technology. So we are protecting that while also not breaking the principle
1283
01:38:57.415 --> 01:38:58.235
of decentralization
1284
01:38:58.535 --> 01:38:59.275
and trustlessness.
1285
01:38:59.655 --> 01:39:00.875
Okay? Like,
1286
01:39:01.450 --> 01:39:06.270
you know, if we all if we all get hit by a bus if we all get hit by a bus tomorrow,
1287
01:39:06.970 --> 01:39:08.910
then the project is dead,
1288
01:39:09.815 --> 01:39:15.435
because of our licensing in part. So that is a gamble that we are making currently
1289
01:39:15.815 --> 01:39:17.110
and that I don't feel comfortable
1290
01:39:27.215 --> 01:39:33.235
So that's That's that's the way to to monetize is to continue to provide what you are providing.
1291
01:39:33.695 --> 01:39:39.350
The support is one thing, but also the continuous development and the, you know, additional services you can,
1292
01:39:40.290 --> 01:39:44.150
find out on top, like, you know, Bitwarden. That's a very good example.
1293
01:39:45.835 --> 01:39:49.455
You can do a lot of things like, you know, you can you can openly
1294
01:39:49.915 --> 01:39:50.655
make people,
1295
01:39:52.235 --> 01:39:59.320
pay for backup a backup solution, for example, or, you know, to provide them a domain, an IP address,
1296
01:39:59.620 --> 01:40:05.385
or, you know, anything else which comes to your mind, and it's it's infinite possibilities in that.
1297
01:40:07.765 --> 01:40:09.225
Pay pay for service.
1298
01:40:09.844 --> 01:40:26.744
Look. Your we we agree. We agree. Your your arguments are, not lost on us. We know. And like I said, this is a conversation. And, you know, there may come a day when there's enough convincing on one side that, hey, you know, we will have more success. And by success, I mean, like I said earlier,
1299
01:40:27.204 --> 01:40:27.704
reaching
1300
01:40:28.429 --> 01:40:31.250
our goal of building a better future.
1301
01:40:31.710 --> 01:40:32.210
Now
1302
01:40:32.830 --> 01:40:42.574
we recognize 2 things that are inherent in that statement. One, is that to get there, we're gonna need a lot of resources. Okay? You don't get to do what we're trying to do without
1303
01:40:43.350 --> 01:40:43.850
resources.
1304
01:40:44.550 --> 01:40:46.330
And 2, we are
1305
01:40:46.949 --> 01:40:49.850
just people, and we would like to live
1306
01:40:50.595 --> 01:40:58.455
good, happy lives. Like, I want to be rich. Right? That is not something I am in any way ashamed to say. I would never trade
1307
01:40:59.159 --> 01:41:07.659
that for my integrity or for, you know, adding value real value to the world. Like, I would never sell somebody a pile of shit and say it's gold.
1308
01:41:07.975 --> 01:41:11.835
But if I'm selling gold, I want to put that money in my
1309
01:41:12.215 --> 01:41:18.640
pocket and then reinvest it into the future I want to build. So we are here to make money
1310
01:41:19.180 --> 01:41:23.280
for the right reasons. At least, I can only say that for myself, I suppose. But
1311
01:41:24.555 --> 01:41:27.215
there's been a couple comments in the side that I should address.
1312
01:41:28.315 --> 01:41:31.615
I used the word lazy, and I think that has triggered a few people.
1313
01:41:32.930 --> 01:41:35.750
Let's back off of the word lazy and and just
1314
01:41:36.370 --> 01:41:37.910
observe the fact
1315
01:41:38.449 --> 01:41:39.270
that 99%
1316
01:41:39.650 --> 01:41:41.110
of people in this world
1317
01:41:41.415 --> 01:41:45.355
will not go assemble hardware from the hardware store,
1318
01:41:45.815 --> 01:41:47.755
flash software from the Internet,
1319
01:41:48.215 --> 01:41:49.195
and run it.
1320
01:41:49.574 --> 01:41:50.074
Our
1321
01:41:50.810 --> 01:41:51.310
hypothesis
1322
01:41:51.850 --> 01:41:53.550
is that people will,
1323
01:41:55.210 --> 01:41:58.910
buy a plug and play device that affords self hosting,
1324
01:41:59.465 --> 01:42:01.005
so long as the experience
1325
01:42:01.785 --> 01:42:03.085
is reminiscent
1326
01:42:03.545 --> 01:42:08.285
of their current computing experience. Right? Like, plugging in an embassy,
1327
01:42:09.010 --> 01:42:10.869
browsing the marketplace for services,
1328
01:42:11.250 --> 01:42:21.074
installing them, running them, visiting the websites that they are hosted on is extremely familiar even to highly untechnical people. So we don't think
1329
01:42:21.375 --> 01:42:24.594
that we are creating a barrier to entry in the
1330
01:42:25.850 --> 01:42:27.230
UX of our product.
1331
01:42:28.250 --> 01:42:31.150
But we recognize that it is a barrier to entry
1332
01:42:31.450 --> 01:42:34.270
if you are expecting people to, 1,
1333
01:42:34.665 --> 01:42:36.925
touch the command line at all,
1334
01:42:37.385 --> 01:42:40.045
you have lost a massive portion of the market.
1335
01:42:40.824 --> 01:42:47.699
And if you're expecting them to ever use Nano or BIM and not a graphical config system with validations,
1336
01:42:48.639 --> 01:42:51.219
you've also lost a massive portion of the market.
1337
01:42:51.805 --> 01:42:54.465
I mean Yeah. Sure. But, like,
1338
01:42:55.245 --> 01:42:56.065
first off,
1339
01:42:56.845 --> 01:42:59.185
Matt, don't get don't let the troll box,
1340
01:42:59.565 --> 01:43:09.940
trigger you. They're gonna get triggered with something. Don't don't let them, don't let them trigger you just because you said lazy. I mean, the fact is, like, it's true. I think every group here
1341
01:43:10.345 --> 01:43:12.765
offers some sort of, like, prebuilt option.
1342
01:43:13.305 --> 01:43:20.080
Right? So, like, it's a reality. People a lot there are a lot of people who either don't have the time. Like, their time is more valuable
1343
01:43:20.700 --> 01:43:27.040
than buying the hardware separately and putting it on there and flashing and doing all their stuff. Even if they know command line,
1344
01:43:27.375 --> 01:43:33.954
they they might just like their time might be more valuable, and they want to just plug in a device and it be everything that they want,
1345
01:43:34.430 --> 01:43:35.730
and then they can go.
1346
01:43:36.110 --> 01:43:37.970
So that's really not even,
1347
01:43:38.350 --> 01:43:41.570
like that it's not like a a controversial statement.
1348
01:43:42.635 --> 01:43:43.135
Them
1349
01:43:43.514 --> 01:43:46.014
getting all butthurt about saying the word lazy
1350
01:43:46.554 --> 01:43:47.454
is absurd.
1351
01:43:47.915 --> 01:43:51.660
So as a person that gets trolled every time I do any of these things,
1352
01:43:52.140 --> 01:44:02.135
don't don't let it bother you. And, also, don't, like, feel like we're attacking you in particular. You guys took your time to, like, make the thing. I think the biggest issue that I have and why I,
1353
01:44:02.514 --> 01:44:04.695
you know, I reached out because I wanted this debate
1354
01:44:05.850 --> 01:44:07.550
I wanted this to not debate.
1355
01:44:07.930 --> 01:44:09.710
This conversation. Right? Because
1356
01:44:11.770 --> 01:44:14.350
I don't wanna see Bitcoin lose its core fundamentals.
1357
01:44:15.530 --> 01:44:22.494
The core fundamentals was get the tool like, the way that I see it, right, it's about get Bitcoin was about getting heart, like, good,
1358
01:44:23.675 --> 01:44:28.880
peer to peer digital cash to the world. Right? And you don't do that through,
1359
01:44:30.140 --> 01:44:31.760
through closed sourced anything.
1360
01:44:32.300 --> 01:44:37.204
And so ever there was never leading up until I mean, like, in the last couple years,
1361
01:44:38.224 --> 01:44:42.405
you were either false. Like, if you were developing in the Bitcoin space, it was false or nothing.
1362
01:44:42.990 --> 01:44:43.490
So,
1363
01:44:44.270 --> 01:44:49.490
and I'm starting to see a trend off of that. I'm not saying it's your fault. I'm not saying it's, you know, my node or
1364
01:44:49.870 --> 01:44:50.370
Umbrel.
1365
01:44:51.995 --> 01:45:03.710
It's it's a trend that I see. Right? And it and I don't wanna see that. I I personally don't wanna see that because, you know, this is I see it as a final stand. Right? Because what why do why does anybody
1366
01:45:04.170 --> 01:45:08.670
why like like, one of the things that I took away that was kinda skated around is
1367
01:45:09.175 --> 01:45:13.275
you close source yourself to protect your intellectual your intellectual property.
1368
01:45:13.655 --> 01:45:26.950
Right? Or you close it off or you make it more restrictive, whatever, however you wanna frame it. You make it work more restrictive because VCs and in in order for you to get a good team, to have a business model, and to go forth, and to do the great things that we wanna do, you need to have VCs
1369
01:45:28.205 --> 01:45:31.505
to get the funding, and VCs are not don't wanna invest in something
1370
01:45:31.965 --> 01:45:44.605
that isn't proprietary of some sort. Right? That that you don't have the intellectual property that someone can just fork it. You know what? Like, that's the battle that we've chosen as people who are trying to develop in the Bitcoin world. We made a choice.
1371
01:45:45.304 --> 01:45:49.804
And the choice that we made was to get in and to deliver tools
1372
01:45:50.185 --> 01:45:54.220
to make people more sovereign. Like, as node as node like,
1373
01:45:54.700 --> 01:45:55.360
you know,
1374
01:45:55.740 --> 01:45:58.000
installer group. I don't even know what we call ourselves.
1375
01:45:58.300 --> 01:45:58.800
But,
1376
01:45:59.185 --> 01:46:19.135
you know, like, that's that's, like, the realm that we went. You know? I even give less I I my mindset's changed on, like, your guys' license and what you guys have done a lot because of what you've said and that you guys your original thought wasn't like, we're Bitcoin node first and all these other things. It was like, we wanna host sovereign apps. And so that's a different perspective.
1377
01:46:19.515 --> 01:46:21.855
But, like, for me, it's,
1378
01:46:22.395 --> 01:46:24.655
you know, I I made the
1379
01:46:25.040 --> 01:46:36.385
I made the initial intent of I wanna help bring, you know, for Ronan in particular. Like, I wanted to bring Dojo to as many people as possible because I believe in the project. I believe in Bitcoin, and I wanted to see
1380
01:46:36.765 --> 01:46:55.885
these tools get to as many people as humanly possible. So my business model goes around that. I'll never have you know there will never be a time where people cannot find the free option. You know, if they wanna go and they wanna buy all the stuff themselves and they wanna do it themselves, great. If you wanna buy a plug and play node, a premium one, that's awesome. If you wanna buy
1381
01:46:56.505 --> 01:47:01.690
a, you know, a 3 d printed case or whatever, you wanna buy some other things, like, you wanna pay for,
1382
01:47:02.070 --> 01:47:11.925
premium support, awesome. Like, we'll like, we will survive. Like, our our goal is not rich is not to get rich, not to do anything, enough to sustain,
1383
01:47:12.625 --> 01:47:16.165
and let's keep moving. Let's keep delivering the tools moving forward.
1384
01:47:17.040 --> 01:47:24.900
And so I think it's what everyone's mindset is to to start. I'm not saying it's you, Matt, so don't take, like, what I'm saying is an attack on you personally,
1385
01:47:25.765 --> 01:47:35.080
because it's not. It's really like it's that that mindset of, like, why are why are we developing in the space? And if it's to to provide a better future,
1386
01:47:36.500 --> 01:47:42.679
like, find a business model that works because the minute that we start closing things off and start making things proprietary,
1387
01:47:43.705 --> 01:47:47.485
not to say that you can't protect yourself with particular license, but, like,
1388
01:47:47.785 --> 01:47:58.230
you the moment that we start to close everything off, right, is the moment that we start to get captured by VCs and we start to get captured by big corporations and everything else. And that is not
1389
01:47:58.885 --> 01:48:00.185
not in my perspective.
1390
01:48:00.565 --> 01:48:06.425
That's not the way that I I vision Bitcoin going. I don't I don't wanna see a future where Bitcoin
1391
01:48:06.890 --> 01:48:15.870
is captured by VCs and mega corporations and everything else because that's what we accepted just to to because the initial goal was to get something,
1392
01:48:16.325 --> 01:48:21.145
you know, better for the world. And then next thing you know, you're captured. You know? So
1393
01:48:22.005 --> 01:48:29.670
that's just my personal personal take, but I know that we wanted to talk about something next. Well, just just
1394
01:48:30.250 --> 01:48:30.750
one
1395
01:48:31.330 --> 01:48:32.470
one point. I
1396
01:48:33.090 --> 01:48:34.790
triggered everyone. Alright. Alright.
1397
01:48:35.555 --> 01:48:56.705
Now just Zeko, I I I would just like to add one one little thing. I I don't agree with you about the VCs. The VCs have been financing open source and free open source projects for 30 years, and they know what it is. They know how it works, and they know very well how to do that. So I don't think having a false license is a is a limitation for any project to be financed by VCs.
1398
01:49:00.780 --> 01:49:14.054
Right. You just need to have you need to have a business model to be financed by VCs or anyone who knows how to make an investment for that matter. Right? It doesn't need to be VCs. But people wanna return. Otherwise, why don't they make an investment? Otherwise, it's a it's, a donation,
1399
01:49:14.435 --> 01:49:18.760
which are fine. Oh, and by the way, I just wanted to say this because it's kinda a neat little thing that we're doing.
1400
01:49:19.400 --> 01:49:21.180
In the next version of Embassy OS,
1401
01:49:21.640 --> 01:49:29.645
there will be a donation section of each service that we offer, such that whoever developed it can add a link, using BDC Pay or Lightning.
1402
01:49:30.105 --> 01:49:37.610
And so users of Embassy will be able to donate directly to the the projects that they like. Nothing to do with what we're doing here. We're just really excited about
1403
01:49:38.550 --> 01:49:42.890
helping to finance the projects that are, you know, populating our platform.
1404
01:49:44.955 --> 01:49:47.135
So just to to clear up, Kito,
1405
01:49:47.515 --> 01:49:49.455
we're we're in agreement then
1406
01:49:49.755 --> 01:49:55.570
that if you don't have a business model, you're you're kinda screwed either way. Correct? I mean, that was, like,
1407
01:49:56.030 --> 01:50:05.635
the whole point was that you need to The Silicon Valley definition of a start up is a company who doesn't have business model. So most VCs finance companies without a business model.
1408
01:50:06.095 --> 01:50:10.990
Right. And VCs I mean, yeah, you need to, obviously, you need to have a business model. But,
1409
01:50:11.930 --> 01:50:12.570
I see this
1410
01:50:13.690 --> 01:50:16.670
may maybe it's just what I see. Right? Like, I see more
1411
01:50:17.130 --> 01:50:19.790
big VC like, big seed money,
1412
01:50:20.285 --> 01:50:21.905
and then following it
1413
01:50:22.605 --> 01:50:23.105
is
1414
01:50:24.045 --> 01:50:28.305
a different license. That's just maybe a trend that I'm seeing. Maybe it's just totally
1415
01:50:28.930 --> 01:50:31.510
not a trend, and I'm just saying what I wanna see. But,
1416
01:50:33.570 --> 01:50:41.094
you know, I don't know. It could just be in a hole. I don't know. Well, I I I could cite a very close example to me. The guys from HAProxy are mostly
1417
01:50:41.395 --> 01:50:44.760
Paris based, and I know them very well. The GPOV
1418
01:50:45.219 --> 01:50:48.119
2, and they are heavily VC VC,
1419
01:50:48.739 --> 01:50:49.800
founded. So
1420
01:50:50.429 --> 01:50:50.929
yeah.
1421
01:50:52.275 --> 01:50:54.775
Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that's not possible. But,
1422
01:50:56.275 --> 01:50:58.215
if you have a good product, I mean,
1423
01:50:58.675 --> 01:51:00.534
VCs will will come to you.
1424
01:51:02.230 --> 01:51:04.250
Yes. I mean, for sure.
1425
01:51:04.870 --> 01:51:22.620
I'm I'm loving this conversation. I know I know Taylor has has something he wants to say here. Let Taylor jump in. Oh, yes. So I just wanted to make 2 quick points. Sorry, Matt. I I didn't even hear you say the word lazy. I don't know. I was responding to something in the chat if you saw what I had said there. But, like, I I mean, I think it's a
1426
01:51:23.080 --> 01:51:26.460
really good perspective. I've seen so many people email me and
1427
01:51:26.825 --> 01:51:29.965
say, like, I really want to be running
1428
01:51:30.344 --> 01:51:40.039
a my new device in my case. I'm sure other people have seen this too, but it's people that come and say, like, thank you so much for creating something that has given me the ability to feel like I'm participating
1429
01:51:40.659 --> 01:51:41.960
in all of this amazing
1430
01:51:42.505 --> 01:51:45.645
development that's going on in the Bitcoin world, and they
1431
01:51:46.025 --> 01:51:50.845
they it's not about time, it's that, like, they they don't have the skills, they have expertise in other areas,
1432
01:51:51.830 --> 01:51:58.090
but they still want to be involved and feel like they're, you know, opening channels and participating in the Lightning Network or using
1433
01:51:58.695 --> 01:52:02.554
the Bitcoin privacy tools and things like that, and it's just really awesome to see and,
1434
01:52:03.735 --> 01:52:08.130
that's exactly why I started my note. It wasn't necessarily to make money, I
1435
01:52:08.430 --> 01:52:14.370
wanted it to be sustainable so that it could make enough to, you know, fund my time and mostly, you know, keep me accountable
1436
01:52:14.865 --> 01:52:17.445
to the people that have purchased the project. Right? Like,
1437
01:52:18.065 --> 01:52:35.125
when someone purchases something, it's, like, it's not about the money, it's about, like, I feel like I owe them something now, and I have to deliver the best experience possible to that person because they've now trusted me with their hard earned money to go buy this product, and I want to continue,
1438
01:52:35.505 --> 01:52:42.980
like, supporting it and making them, like, as happy as possible and giving them as much, flexibility and power as possible to sort of,
1439
01:52:43.620 --> 01:52:48.440
self host apps, although my focus has been only on the Bitcoin related apps in the past.
1440
01:52:48.900 --> 01:52:52.585
But then, Zelco, to a point that you said, I thought it was interesting.
1441
01:52:54.025 --> 01:52:55.165
You said you wanted
1442
01:52:55.705 --> 01:52:58.605
to get Ronin Dojo out there to as many people as possible,
1443
01:52:59.010 --> 01:53:04.310
And I agree with that. I think we all want that. That's our goal. But I also don't necessarily know if,
1444
01:53:04.690 --> 01:53:11.145
like, that is the most optimal way. And I this is based on my experience over the past couple years. Like, being open source only,
1445
01:53:11.925 --> 01:53:29.205
and not that I'm fully FOSS according to, like, the the definition of it, but by being a project, especially a small one, I think there are challenges, like Matt was saying, with with marketing. Right? Like, I'm terrible at marketing. I'll admit that now. Like, I wish I was better at it. I wish I was way better at it. But,
1446
01:53:29.844 --> 01:53:34.905
I I and that's why I think, like, sometimes getting VC funding is actually gonna get you
1447
01:53:35.210 --> 01:53:43.310
much more exposure because you're now gonna have a marketing budget and be able to hire people that are good at that kind of thing and get vastly more exposure
1448
01:53:43.685 --> 01:53:50.905
than just relying on sort of word-of-mouth community type engagement. So while I agree with you that I want my note in front of as many people as possible,
1449
01:53:51.280 --> 01:54:07.804
I also don't think I've looking back, I don't think I've taken an optimal approach to that. I think I mean, probably what Umbrell did was the optimal approach to getting it in front of as many people as possible. Don't focus on, like, flexibility exactly. Focus on UI and marketing budgets and, you know, it
1450
01:54:08.120 --> 01:54:14.300
it seems like I'll just I'll just disagree. I mean, like, I I see what your point is, but I'm gonna I would just disagree with that whole,
1451
01:54:14.920 --> 01:54:17.500
take away all the user choice and make everything
1452
01:54:18.265 --> 01:54:20.045
as simple stupid as possible.
1453
01:54:20.665 --> 01:54:27.165
I mean, there's, like, to an extent that should be a thing. But, I mean, if you're running your own node, doing quotations,
1454
01:54:27.640 --> 01:54:29.740
but you can't control anything,
1455
01:54:30.280 --> 01:54:41.095
what like, what's the point? You know, like, if I can't configure things because they took away all those options because they wanted to streamline and make it easier. If I can't add Tor Bridges,
1456
01:54:41.555 --> 01:54:44.375
right, without, you know, some sort of security
1457
01:54:46.150 --> 01:54:47.449
security measure,
1458
01:54:47.750 --> 01:54:48.250
right,
1459
01:54:48.870 --> 01:55:02.574
then what like, what's the point? Like, if I can't actually utilize my node the way that it want the way that I wanna run it, I'm not running a node. Like Oh, 3%. Sorry. I'm fine. I'm fine. I know that you agree with me. I know. I'm I'm just, like, more speaking out on it. Like,
1460
01:55:04.130 --> 01:55:08.770
I I 100% disagree with the fact that, like, how that their approach is, like,
1461
01:55:10.125 --> 01:55:13.185
they're trying to appeal to these no coiners.
1462
01:55:13.645 --> 01:55:15.824
And, like, okay. Cool.
1463
01:55:16.125 --> 01:55:22.820
But you're not your approach isn't going to to last. Like, I'm sure that my notice have plenty of people,
1464
01:55:23.140 --> 01:55:32.275
you know, refugee over. I know we're getting a lot of refugees over, and it's because that that simple approach doesn't work. It's not it's it's not effective.
1465
01:55:32.735 --> 01:55:34.034
Right? And
1466
01:55:34.335 --> 01:55:40.280
people people want to be able to do what they want to do with their node. So I I like their whole approach,
1467
01:55:40.820 --> 01:55:46.355
like, yeah, you can have all the good marketing, but if your tech sucks, then, you know, you're just gonna be right back in the beginning.
1468
01:55:46.755 --> 01:55:53.575
And from the reverse side, right, like, if we have good tech, whether that's, like, anyone here, I think everyone has really good software.
1469
01:55:53.990 --> 01:55:54.890
At the end of the
1470
01:55:55.270 --> 01:55:57.450
day, right, if you don't run good tech,
1471
01:55:57.830 --> 01:56:06.795
it you could have the best marketing in the world. And what's the point? Right? Like, you're not going to get the people that you need. You just have something that looks good. But at the end of the day, you have a really
1472
01:56:07.175 --> 01:56:10.475
nice smelling piece of shit. You know? So
1473
01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:23.565
I just not to cut you off, Selka. I mean, first of all, guys, I appreciate it, all of you, for being here. I think this is the best dispatch discussion we've had so far. I mean, the freaks might have noticed that I'm just sitting back and enjoying my beverage.
1474
01:56:24.505 --> 01:56:27.965
This is what dispatch is about, so I appreciate you guys and appreciate this discussion.
1475
01:56:28.540 --> 01:56:32.960
I think this is a great push off point, on Zelko's last comment.
1476
01:56:33.900 --> 01:56:35.679
You know, dispatch is
1477
01:56:36.474 --> 01:56:37.695
was kind of reactionary.
1478
01:56:38.315 --> 01:56:41.695
The creation of dispatch was reactionary against, like, these, like,
1479
01:56:42.074 --> 01:56:43.695
Bitcoin philosopher podcasts,
1480
01:56:44.710 --> 01:56:47.930
where there was, like, no actionable discussion at all whatsoever.
1481
01:56:49.510 --> 01:56:53.770
And an actionable aspect of what Zelco just discussed there
1482
01:56:54.375 --> 01:56:59.195
is a scenario where there's a Bitcoin fork, specifically a contentious fork.
1483
01:56:59.895 --> 01:57:05.190
And I would like some discussion here in terms of I mean, we can use Taproot an example. I think it's less contentious.
1484
01:57:05.730 --> 01:57:08.150
But how these node projects, how your implementations
1485
01:57:08.610 --> 01:57:10.310
are going to handle a situation,
1486
01:57:12.345 --> 01:57:13.965
where the user, you know
1487
01:57:14.345 --> 01:57:23.370
like, how how do you handle a situation where the user needs to decide what they're gonna run? Do you decide for them? Is your license permissive enough that they get to decide for themselves?
1488
01:57:24.150 --> 01:57:29.370
Is that a security issue for Bitcoin going forward, if if the user does not have a choice?
1489
01:57:34.054 --> 01:57:38.474
I just would like to to say that, as we had, you know, custom scripts
1490
01:57:38.970 --> 01:57:41.390
done by people and also distributed,
1491
01:57:41.930 --> 01:57:46.090
and, and, obviously, everyone should re read those. But,
1492
01:57:48.025 --> 01:57:49.965
similar to as an alternative,
1493
01:57:51.865 --> 01:57:52.365
parallel,
1494
01:57:53.465 --> 01:57:59.380
Bitcoin core implementation has appeared when there was a question about if how to activate,
1495
01:58:00.160 --> 01:58:00.660
Taproot.
1496
01:58:01.600 --> 01:58:04.180
The same way with a free open source,
1497
01:58:04.855 --> 01:58:06.395
obviously, similarly licensed
1498
01:58:06.695 --> 01:58:07.995
to Bitcoin project.
1499
01:58:09.335 --> 01:58:09.835
Anytime
1500
01:58:10.375 --> 01:58:16.360
a 4 can appear, which can just does whatever those group of users wants to have.
1501
01:58:17.620 --> 01:58:20.280
And that's that's a solution because it will,
1502
01:58:20.765 --> 01:58:27.344
you know, leap forward, which is more wanted, and then, obviously, everyone can just move towards this.
1503
01:58:33.650 --> 01:58:36.310
Yes. So I'm curious to hear, like,
1504
01:58:36.850 --> 01:58:39.485
like, keto. Like, what's your thoughts on,
1505
01:58:40.344 --> 01:58:41.405
how you would
1506
01:58:41.945 --> 01:58:43.165
how you'd handle that,
1507
01:58:44.560 --> 01:58:49.360
that scenario. Say it well, I I don't think Taproot's a good example like Matt was saying.
1508
01:58:50.000 --> 01:58:52.180
Maybe there there's a potential hard fork.
1509
01:58:54.105 --> 01:58:55.085
Maybe b cash
1510
01:58:55.385 --> 01:59:00.025
v 3 or something or v 8. I don't know what number we're on, but say something, and,
1511
01:59:00.505 --> 01:59:02.125
there's a contentious split.
1512
01:59:04.010 --> 01:59:04.750
You know,
1513
01:59:05.290 --> 01:59:06.190
moving forward.
1514
01:59:07.050 --> 01:59:10.030
What's your what's your thoughts? What's your actions look like?
1515
01:59:10.895 --> 01:59:14.115
Yeah. Well well, I guess if if there is
1516
01:59:14.495 --> 01:59:17.155
a fork of Bitcoin Core tomorrow,
1517
01:59:18.110 --> 01:59:19.170
we will definitely
1518
01:59:19.630 --> 01:59:23.329
let our users choose which one they want to go with.
1519
01:59:25.365 --> 01:59:30.985
That being said, it didn't happen yet, so it's hard to know what what what we're actually doing in such a situation.
1520
01:59:32.580 --> 01:59:33.320
For the
1521
01:59:33.620 --> 01:59:35.800
in in case if the
1522
01:59:36.100 --> 01:59:38.199
if the tap root activation,
1523
01:59:39.380 --> 01:59:40.679
lock in didn't happen
1524
01:59:42.345 --> 01:59:43.965
last week. We'll probably
1525
01:59:44.265 --> 01:59:45.085
offer the
1526
01:59:45.785 --> 01:59:49.155
the option to run the fork of Bitcoin call that,
1527
01:59:50.620 --> 01:59:52.960
allows for the user soft fork.
1528
01:59:54.460 --> 01:59:55.280
But, yeah,
1529
01:59:55.660 --> 01:59:58.415
it's it's really hard to to know, like,
1530
01:59:58.975 --> 02:00:00.515
what we would do if,
1531
02:00:01.295 --> 02:00:03.395
since this situation didn't happen before.
1532
02:00:08.349 --> 02:00:13.525
Yeah. From from my side, I can say, of course, the Respiblitz being the MIT license,
1533
02:00:14.165 --> 02:00:18.585
everybody if if we don't offer her a solution or the alternative,
1534
02:00:19.364 --> 02:00:37.655
anybody can just fork it, put it out there, and people can just up their speed update their USB blitzes to those fork kind of, release there. So that's that's the fall fallback, and that's the freedom for everybody to do. And I think at the moment, we are at a point where every project out there will say we will provide every option to the user.
1535
02:00:38.020 --> 02:00:43.400
And that's why we are I think we we are still early, and and and nobody wants to to scare off the community.
1536
02:00:44.420 --> 02:00:47.000
But we have to play through the scenario when,
1537
02:00:48.165 --> 02:00:52.345
what what what can happen so that the node project doesn't offer you something,
1538
02:00:53.205 --> 02:00:56.105
and and then you're in a locked locked in situation.
1539
02:00:56.565 --> 02:00:59.050
Is How feasible is this situation?
1540
02:00:59.590 --> 02:01:01.050
And we were talking about
1541
02:01:01.430 --> 02:01:01.930
startups,
1542
02:01:02.390 --> 02:01:05.530
node projects being startups. What is fair in the beginning?
1543
02:01:06.625 --> 02:01:14.965
But but I have to say, I'm ahead of US start up, and and I made the I made the experience, like, having programs on a on a on a software
1544
02:01:15.350 --> 02:01:22.630
that really owned and I cofounded the company and and stuff. And in the end, I was not that clever to be kicked out of the company.
1545
02:01:23.110 --> 02:01:27.885
Now every founder say, oh, we have 51%, whatever. But there are tricks or whatever.
1546
02:01:28.345 --> 02:01:33.005
Investors play this game longer than you, and they know exactly how to get control in a company.
1547
02:01:33.310 --> 02:01:33.630
So,
1548
02:01:34.429 --> 02:01:49.065
yeah. And in the end, you sit there, and you lost your code. And now this code is owned by somebody else. It's not longer your thing. It's no longer your baby. That's a hard feeling. So that's some for some people to consider if they, as an attack vector on on a full node project,
1549
02:01:49.605 --> 02:02:11.530
just because when you have a prop proprietary license that is not free and open source and and you have an investor, this is a scenario you have to think of. And there's a lot of banks out there that have a lot of money to invest into start ups, and in the end, they will love you and say, yeah. Sure. You have all the freedoms. But, yeah, there is a control creeping in vector there, so you have to keep that in mind. And then you have have a have a situation
1550
02:02:11.990 --> 02:02:21.055
where you have a node that is targeted to newbies that are not very technically keen. You give them an easy system to use. That's why they're all there and using and a lot of people are using your system.
1551
02:02:21.675 --> 02:02:30.140
And then this come then a critical 4 comes that it's important to the direction where Bitcoin goes. Privacy or or something else. And and then this
1552
02:02:30.840 --> 02:02:36.125
your start up with this bank control creep in creep in maybe says, no. We will not do this.
1553
02:02:36.445 --> 02:02:39.985
And what choice do we have? So what choice do users have?
1554
02:02:40.285 --> 02:02:50.050
And, so so you have to keep those kind of, scenarios in mind. I know they are theoretical a little bit because we're in a very early phase where this thing is not not a not imminent threat.
1555
02:02:50.350 --> 02:03:00.135
But we want to set the roads here into the right direction. So, this is definitely something I just wanna let everybody know that having a start up with some restrictive license
1556
02:03:01.315 --> 02:03:04.695
just maybe not your maybe not be your start up in the future.
1557
02:03:05.240 --> 02:03:11.500
You never know. So so keep that in mind, and and the freedom to fork is really something that's very, very important,
1558
02:03:12.040 --> 02:03:18.535
for for a project. So if there's a free and open source license, somebody else can always come in and say, I I I give you an alternative.
1559
02:03:18.995 --> 02:03:23.840
And I just wanna quickly address because Taylor was was talking about this business source license,
1560
02:03:24.140 --> 02:03:31.115
which is this idea of, oh, it will become open source after a certain time. I think this is a good idea for some projects out there,
1561
02:03:31.515 --> 02:03:33.215
that not that time critical,
1562
02:03:34.235 --> 02:03:40.975
but especially for Bitcoin. So imagine you have a business source license that says, oh, here's our full node project. And after 2 years,
1563
02:03:41.660 --> 02:03:48.640
this it will be it will be, open source. So no problem. So, but here comes the point. There comes a fork now, and you have
1564
02:03:59.310 --> 02:04:01.230
We we lost little bit in a lock
1565
02:04:01.630 --> 02:04:08.265
you lost me? I'm back. Yeah. You're broken up. Okay. Sorry for that. I tried my Internet connection here.
1566
02:04:08.905 --> 02:04:17.309
And now you have this this, this fork situation, and now users have just a choice to use a 2 years old fork, and this might not become
1567
02:04:17.949 --> 02:04:26.335
you cannot update to this fork anymore because so so many things change. And I think even Umbrel did not exist, I think, maybe 2 years ago. So So this is really,
1568
02:04:27.035 --> 02:04:28.815
in 2 years or something, a lot of stuff
1569
02:04:29.195 --> 02:04:29.855
can change.
1570
02:04:30.315 --> 02:04:30.815
And
1571
02:04:31.275 --> 02:04:58.540
if you make it very short, like, oh, it's just 2 months or something, then why do it at all? So this is a little bit of questions I would like to inspire discussion now. How do you find the right balance there, and what are maybe really the dangers of running a full node that is not complete? I'd like to I'd like to jump in and comment on the Bitcoin, you know, soft and hard fork scenarios and cause we've we've put a lot of thought into that. And then, sure, we could, I think, turn up the conversation a little if you'd like, Matt. But,
1572
02:04:59.560 --> 02:05:00.940
so we designed,
1573
02:05:01.614 --> 02:05:02.675
Embassy OS
1574
02:05:03.054 --> 02:05:32.380
with the principle of, you know, your computer, your software. Right? Like, that's the whole problem with the computing paradigm today is that you're not using your own software. Right? Your phone and your laptop are just remote controls for somebody else's server and software. So, we, you know, have basic principles in the Embassy operating system of no forced updates. Right? So first of all, you install Embassy OS and it comes with nothing. It's a blank operating system, and you choose from the get go what you want to install.
1575
02:05:33.320 --> 02:05:34.380
And because of that
1576
02:05:35.225 --> 02:05:35.725
architecture,
1577
02:05:36.905 --> 02:05:43.725
and because of the openness of our marketplace, which is about to become more apparent in the next release, but it is essentially open,
1578
02:05:44.619 --> 02:05:45.119
Anyone
1579
02:05:45.739 --> 02:05:47.440
in the world can package,
1580
02:05:49.260 --> 02:05:52.719
a service for Embassy OS and make it available
1581
02:05:53.325 --> 02:05:54.225
on a marketplace.
1582
02:05:54.605 --> 02:06:10.110
Now we have our marketplace. Right? And we want it to be super clean, and we're not gonna allow malware on there. We're only gonna put things on our marketplace that we think people in the world want to use and that are safe to use. And, obviously, we can't read every line of every code,
1583
02:06:10.975 --> 02:06:14.195
written by every project that become that enters our marketplace,
1584
02:06:14.655 --> 02:06:23.990
but we can rely on the openness of those projects on the on the fact that they've been around for a while, you know, on the trustedness, and then provide the proper warnings to our users
1585
02:06:24.450 --> 02:06:36.815
when they go to install a given project. Like, hey. Make sure that you, yourself, trust this project. Like, you know, you can validate the signature that it is what you think it is, but you're still sort of installing the software at your own risk.
1586
02:06:37.340 --> 02:06:46.400
And because of the openness of the marketplace, there is absolutely nothing that prohibits multiple Bitcoin implementations from existing side by side on the marketplace.
1587
02:06:47.285 --> 02:06:50.745
Now this almost came about in reality a few weeks ago,
1588
02:06:51.205 --> 02:06:52.745
with the alternative Taproot,
1589
02:06:53.135 --> 02:06:53.635
implementation.
1590
02:06:54.599 --> 02:06:58.940
And, you know, we had some people coming into our channel being like, hey. I wanna run this thing. Can I?
1591
02:06:59.400 --> 02:07:06.605
And we were like, look. If there is demand for this, we ourselves will package it up, put it onto our marketplace,
1592
02:07:07.305 --> 02:07:08.365
apply the appropriate
1593
02:07:08.825 --> 02:07:14.410
warnings and caveats, and, like, hey. If you download this, here's what you're doing. Here's the potential pitfalls,
1594
02:07:14.790 --> 02:07:15.850
etcetera, etcetera.
1595
02:07:16.710 --> 02:07:19.415
But say, like, we didn't do that. Say, like, there was
1596
02:07:20.115 --> 02:07:41.385
a client that somebody really wanted to use, and we as a team decided that it was BS and we don't wanna do it. Anyone on earth could go package that client up as, s nine p k, which is the format that the embassy requires it to be in, and submit it and say, hey. Start 9, will you put this on your marketplace? And we could then say, no. We don't want that crap in our marketplace. We already said that.
1597
02:07:41.925 --> 02:07:46.400
They could then spin up their own marketplace since that is an open, protocol,
1598
02:07:46.940 --> 02:07:51.120
and we have published the protocol spec for that, and users could actually
1599
02:07:51.635 --> 02:07:59.880
switch to their marketplace. So in Embassy, you can choose the marketplace that you want to shop at. So for whatever reason, we're not offering the service that you want,
1600
02:08:00.440 --> 02:08:01.420
one of our competitors
1601
02:08:01.880 --> 02:08:05.420
can. And so we in no way control the future of
1602
02:08:05.880 --> 02:08:13.284
the software that can be run, on Embassy. So, alternative Bitcoin clients are totally up to the users
1603
02:08:13.824 --> 02:08:15.284
and the, packagers,
1604
02:08:15.985 --> 02:08:17.685
and the producers of those services.
1605
02:08:18.860 --> 02:08:20.720
We just hope to provide the most
1606
02:08:21.340 --> 02:08:21.840
clear
1607
02:08:22.460 --> 02:08:25.040
and safe experience that we can
1608
02:08:25.525 --> 02:08:29.545
to our users, which eventually, you know, if they're gonna go to an alternative marketplace,
1609
02:08:30.405 --> 02:08:36.950
we're basically gonna say, you know, good luck. You know, you're you're on your own, but it's your computer. Do whatever the hell you want with it.
1610
02:08:38.530 --> 02:08:39.830
Likewise. Back.
1611
02:08:42.105 --> 02:08:49.245
So, yeah, I think that's a a great goal. How so one problem I've had with that on the technical side, like, philosophically, that's fantastic.
1612
02:08:49.670 --> 02:08:57.770
But, like, on the technical side, it it just has seemed from my perspective trying to, you know, maintain things that if I wanted to easily
1613
02:08:58.155 --> 02:09:14.480
support a different Lightning or Bitcoin implementation or whatever, like, they often have different well, more on the Lightning side, I guess, but they have different, like, RPCs, and so it's not like a user could continue running all of the apps that they've been running if they just said, okay. I wanna swap out my light lightning implementation.
1614
02:09:15.255 --> 02:09:16.535
Right. It won't work and just, like,
1615
02:09:17.175 --> 02:09:25.060
totally plug and play kinda thing. But but it will. Right? Embassy OS is designed to accommodate that. So we have a completely generalized,
1616
02:09:25.520 --> 02:09:30.980
highly sophisticated dependency management system built into the operating system. So, for example,
1617
02:09:31.285 --> 02:09:37.785
I could come in today, a and a user of an Embassy today could download Embassy or, you know, plug in their Embassy
1618
02:09:38.245 --> 02:09:39.785
and install Sphinx chat
1619
02:09:40.400 --> 02:09:47.780
by itself. They have nothing else on the machine except Sphinx. Embassy would immediately go into a dependency, you know, error situation
1620
02:09:48.400 --> 02:09:49.219
and provide
1621
02:09:49.885 --> 02:09:52.545
one you know, put a blindfold on button clicks
1622
02:09:52.925 --> 02:09:56.704
to solve the dependency issue, which would be obviously to install LND
1623
02:09:57.005 --> 02:10:15.405
and then obviously to install Bitcoin. But then it's like, oh, Bitcoin's not synced. So there will be a different issue that displays that says, well, Sphinx isn't happy because LND isn't happy because Bitcoin isn't synced yet. So you need to wait until Bitcoin is synced. And all of this is presented to the user in graphical format, and it extends even to configurations.
1624
02:10:16.265 --> 02:10:18.780
For example, let's say you wanted to install
1625
02:10:19.160 --> 02:10:19.900
a service
1626
02:10:20.360 --> 02:10:22.860
that required that a specific RPC
1627
02:10:23.560 --> 02:10:32.625
call be enabled in Bitcoin Core, as in it requires a certain version of Bitcoin Core or even a particular configuration of Bitcoin Core. So bitcoins.com
1628
02:10:33.085 --> 02:10:34.545
file is massive. Right?
1629
02:10:35.040 --> 02:10:38.420
And lnd is only gonna be happy if certain,
1630
02:10:38.800 --> 02:10:39.780
you know, configurations
1631
02:10:40.239 --> 02:10:42.980
are, you know, an expected way.
1632
02:10:43.295 --> 02:10:52.514
In the world today, that is a dotcom file, that is a, you know, looking online, that is reading readme's, and then getting it to work. With the OS that we've built,
1633
02:10:53.610 --> 02:11:11.900
lnd will actually tell you. It's like, hey. Bitcoin is not configured in the way that I need it to be configured. Would you like me to configure it for you? And then you click yes and then it configures it and then it restarts everything and it all just works. So what I'm saying is that even if somebody were to put some crazy piece of software on the marketplace,
1634
02:11:13.960 --> 02:11:18.095
it would still have to abide by this system. Now could they could they
1635
02:11:18.475 --> 02:11:19.135
be malicious?
1636
02:11:19.595 --> 02:11:25.120
Could they put something on the marketplace that says, hey. I need c lightning when it actually needs lnd?
1637
02:11:25.580 --> 02:11:33.405
Sure. But it won't be on our marketplace because we will be vetting the things that get onto our marketplace in order to provide this seamless experience.
1638
02:11:33.945 --> 02:11:35.645
So back to the fork issue,
1639
02:11:36.025 --> 02:11:38.364
if there's a fork of Bitcoin Core
1640
02:11:38.905 --> 02:11:40.605
that everyone wants to run
1641
02:11:40.920 --> 02:11:51.725
and we, as a team, for whatever reason, have decided that we're not gonna put it on our marketplace because we think it's fucking malware or something like that. But But somebody else in the world goes, you know what? I'll do it. Hey, Embassy users worldwide,
1642
02:11:52.105 --> 02:11:54.445
visit my marketplace and you can get the thing.
1643
02:11:55.145 --> 02:11:56.685
They are trusting that person,
1644
02:11:57.239 --> 02:12:00.380
right, not only to deliver the client
1645
02:12:00.840 --> 02:12:03.739
that they're claiming to deliver with signature validation,
1646
02:12:04.365 --> 02:12:06.705
but also that it has been packaged
1647
02:12:07.085 --> 02:12:07.585
properly
1648
02:12:08.045 --> 02:12:15.469
such that Embassy OS can do its job. Right? It's like packaging an app for the App Store, Play Store. It's like So you basically reinvented
1649
02:12:16.570 --> 02:12:17.389
the packages
1650
02:12:18.010 --> 02:12:19.789
which exist for 30 years.
1651
02:12:20.730 --> 02:12:22.110
Reinvented the packages?
1652
02:12:23.675 --> 02:12:38.410
Yeah. Like any Linux distribution handles dependencies and packages and all of what you just said. Yes. Such that they can be presented to a totally nontechnical user through a graphical operating system. That's literally what we do as a company. So we Okay. That's called Ubuntu.
1653
02:12:39.485 --> 02:12:40.545
No. No. No.
1654
02:12:42.525 --> 02:12:45.025
No. It's it's all command line all over the place.
1655
02:12:45.565 --> 02:12:49.890
Maybe maybe last last ask me a question that comes back a little bit to this forecast situation.
1656
02:12:50.750 --> 02:12:59.574
You you say that, the it's a marketplace and somebody you can just switch to another marketplace, but, again, you always told on your marketplace, you maybe,
1657
02:13:00.675 --> 02:13:03.895
shoe stuff. How do we make sure that the software
1658
02:13:04.410 --> 02:13:13.469
never there's a hostile takeover of your company, and you don't have a say anymore in in what's what's really getting into production. And somebody says, no. We will block certain marketplaces,
1659
02:13:14.525 --> 02:13:22.670
because we don't think that we want to protect the user or something. Yeah. Something like that. Normally, it comes some under some marketing pretense or so.
1660
02:13:23.230 --> 02:13:27.730
So how will I make sure, as a Embassy user, that you, as a company,
1661
02:13:28.190 --> 02:13:29.250
never censor,
1662
02:13:29.630 --> 02:13:30.370
a marketplace?
1663
02:13:31.355 --> 02:13:46.079
Well, we're openly admitting that we're gonna censor our marketplace. Right? I Your marketplace. But, again, how to how to make sensor that I can change to certain marketplaces that you maybe block certain Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying that okay. So somebody spins up an alternative marketplace,
1664
02:13:46.539 --> 02:14:05.165
and we, in our source code, say, you're not gonna be able to visit this marketplace. We prevent it from happening. And because our source code is not FOSS, there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. I agree with your assessment. And if that day ever comes and we find ourselves in that position, then we will reassess our licensing approach. Right? I
1665
02:14:05.945 --> 02:14:15.670
I I do not see in a position to to make this call then. So sorry. I just give you a hard time to to to to pound on this because I heard little bit similar ideas from the Umbrel team,
1666
02:14:16.050 --> 02:14:19.830
or at least some people surrounding Umbrel since every it's a little bit hard to say.
1667
02:14:22.065 --> 02:14:23.925
Yep. Wait. Did you just cut out?
1668
02:14:24.945 --> 02:14:29.845
He definitely cut out. There. Yeah. So, there's always the the question is,
1669
02:14:30.385 --> 02:14:31.605
yeah. Sure. You make
1670
02:14:31.970 --> 02:14:44.565
make a everybody can install free pages or we have a marketplace where people could can put stuff on there, and you can change maybe even a marketplace. But again, if if the users are not in control of the software, the company could change this in the future.
1671
02:14:44.945 --> 02:15:00.145
And and it's very hard then and this is the still the the licensing or the censoring issue. A little bit like Apple. Apple has control over their marketplace because they're closed source. Google instead the Google Play Store is also not very it's not putting everything on there,
1672
02:15:00.545 --> 02:15:02.085
and they allow you to install,
1673
02:15:02.465 --> 02:15:02.965
APKs.
1674
02:15:03.425 --> 02:15:05.445
That would what's nice, at least.
1675
02:15:05.745 --> 02:15:17.300
And they they do this because Google, the Android system is you can find an open source versions of that. So if they would completely close it down, they know they will lose their their people. Apple, again, because they are completely
1676
02:15:17.840 --> 02:15:19.380
proprietary, they have to disclose
1677
02:15:19.985 --> 02:15:26.485
App Store in the end, and you see a little bit what's what's what's how how we speak with this gets when these big companies at at play there.
1678
02:15:27.025 --> 02:15:35.540
We couldn't agree more. Right? Like, the we the the team at Start 9 has the exact same thoughts that you do. It's just not a problem right now. Right? So we
1679
02:15:36.005 --> 02:15:44.265
have so many problems to solve from a technological perspective, from a marketing perspective, from a business perspective, from an hiring perspective.
1680
02:15:44.570 --> 02:15:45.630
Like, we are building
1681
02:15:46.170 --> 02:15:59.915
we're trying to build a business here, and I don't mean to diminish what we're trying to do by calling it a business. And I'm sorry I'm sorry to cut you off, buddy, but you're trying to build a business. Right? But you don't need to build a business that you're going to be restricting your users
1682
02:16:00.535 --> 02:16:02.715
and re distributing your software
1683
02:16:03.880 --> 02:16:15.475
to make it their own. I mean, what's the problem with finished. Let me let me finish. That's okay. What's the problem with having an open source, you know, license that allows people to fork your software without any liability?
1684
02:16:16.095 --> 02:16:24.900
Okay. So listen. You missed the licensing discussion. Okay? So please relisten to it because I answered that question an hour ago. So,
1685
02:16:25.440 --> 02:16:29.545
however, I will sort of somewhat readdress here. But what you're saying,
1686
02:16:29.925 --> 02:16:31.545
we agree with, recognize,
1687
02:16:32.245 --> 02:16:33.145
and are,
1688
02:16:34.325 --> 02:16:52.895
addressing in real time. Okay? This is a war. What's happening right now on planet Earth is a war, and the battles are happening on so many different fronts. And we have chosen a particular place to position ourselves in this war. And our license is one piece of many
1689
02:16:53.274 --> 02:16:55.774
as our overall strategy towards producing,
1690
02:16:56.260 --> 02:17:05.319
towards winning. Okay? And I think everyone here would define winning the same. That's why we're on this call. I don't think there's any disagreement here in the world that we are trying to produce.
1691
02:17:06.135 --> 02:17:06.635
We
1692
02:17:07.095 --> 02:17:10.314
are trying to produce that world through the mechanism
1693
02:17:10.854 --> 02:17:14.830
of a business. Right? And, again, like I was about to say,
1694
02:17:15.550 --> 02:17:30.505
I don't mean to Okay. Okay. You're saying we're you're fighting we're fighting a war. Right? But you're holding the you're holding the weapons, and you're not sharing those weapons with your user. I mean, how are you gonna win the war if you're the only ones holding the power? If you're not letting your users
1695
02:17:30.960 --> 02:17:41.805
innovate on your software if they wanted to Again, hold on. And and distribute it. I mean, that's my only problem is we need to allow everyone in the community because the community is what makes us strong.
1696
02:17:42.265 --> 02:17:46.685
Community is strong together. All of us are together strong, and we allow everyone
1697
02:17:47.020 --> 02:17:58.556
to freely distribute, modify, and share any software that we make. We can make money, guys. We can make money. We can make money by support service. If you can make money selling products, you know, Raspberry PIs,
1698
02:17:58.936 --> 02:18:04.715
you know, branded products. But we you know, I don't believe that we should be holding any software
1699
02:18:05.819 --> 02:18:13.520
that people cannot contribute to, then they cannot redistribute on their own. Imagine if the Linux kernel was like that where you couldn't
1700
02:18:13.865 --> 02:18:23.165
redistribute it on your own. That's why you can't get any closed source software inside the Linux mainstream kernel because they will not allow it. The license does not allow that.
1701
02:18:24.091 --> 02:18:29.710
Sorry. I'm full of states right now, and I'm a little drunk. So keep going. And, you know, if I hurt your feelings, I am sorry. Not sorry.
1702
02:18:30.570 --> 02:18:36.395
Dude, I got thick, thick skin. But listen, I have now twice tried to make a point and got inter interrupt
1703
02:18:37.016 --> 02:18:40.155
interrupted at exactly the same moment. Okay? So
1704
02:18:40.790 --> 02:18:50.170
both times when I've said we are building a business had is when you have jumped in. Because, clearly, building a business is something that you are have associated with
1705
02:18:50.615 --> 02:18:51.115
antithetical
1706
02:18:51.735 --> 02:18:55.035
to accomplishing the ends that we are all trying to achieve.
1707
02:18:55.495 --> 02:18:56.635
We do not believe
1708
02:18:57.095 --> 02:19:02.780
that business as such, building a business, is antithetical to freedom. Okay? We are essentially
1709
02:19:03.160 --> 02:19:12.105
I'm not gonna say we. I'm a capitalist. Okay? But I believe I I I use that word in the full meaning of free enterprise.
1710
02:19:12.485 --> 02:19:18.530
Okay? So we are doing something totally free. We are not free as in fosse, but we are building
1711
02:19:18.910 --> 02:19:39.940
what we want to build, what we, as a group, have decided we're passionate about building, and we are building it for all the right reasons. Right? What we are building, what we have built, and what we will build are going to help in this fight in a massive way. Right? We've already demonstrated this. Many people who are using the embassy today have already come in and said, this is unbelievable.
1712
02:19:40.400 --> 02:19:41.460
Right? Just like,
1713
02:19:42.515 --> 02:20:16.285
I'm sorry, Taylor was talking about earlier. The feedback from the from the community, from our customers has been the this the fire that has kept us going. We're not making a lot of money. Are you kidding? We sell a Raspberry Pi in a box around the world. Like, this is we're not talking about, you know, Apple here. We're talking about paying the bills. We're talking about being able to keep the wheels turning while we fight for the future we're trying to build. And there are multiple ways to do that. You can do that by building a business, or you can do that by accepting donations. And if you're building a business, there's a 100 different ways that you can monetize.
1714
02:20:16.665 --> 02:20:19.085
And so we have approached this holistically,
1715
02:20:19.785 --> 02:20:22.045
rationally, and with great intent,
1716
02:20:23.065 --> 02:20:24.045
to accomplish
1717
02:20:24.910 --> 02:20:50.830
our goals of upending, destroying the centralized, trusted, custodial, surveillance, bullshit computing model that dominates Earth today. The fact that we have chosen to fight that fight as a business, and you or others may have chosen to fight that fight as a a foundation that accepts donations, We're all fighting for the same future here. And I understand that your opinion is that some of our strategic choices,
1718
02:20:51.210 --> 02:20:52.590
especially around licensing,
1719
02:20:53.455 --> 02:21:09.840
are going to come back and bite us. But what I'm saying is that we are very aware of the choices that we have made and that we are open minded, not as in if you convince us, we will do it, but we are extremely agile. If the day ever comes
1720
02:21:10.205 --> 02:21:14.064
when it is to our and the world's as we see it benefit
1721
02:21:14.445 --> 02:21:19.345
for us to change our license, we will change our license. But as it exists today,
1722
02:21:19.740 --> 02:21:20.240
today,
1723
02:21:20.940 --> 02:21:22.640
we believe that our license
1724
02:21:22.940 --> 02:21:24.800
affords us the best opportunity
1725
02:21:25.580 --> 02:21:27.280
to contribute to the fight.
1726
02:21:27.705 --> 02:21:34.825
We really believe that. And if if any of you want to sidebar this afterwards and say, hey, Matt. Here's
1727
02:21:35.270 --> 02:21:37.610
if you change your license to GPL,
1728
02:21:38.150 --> 02:21:40.091
here's why it's gonna make you better
1729
02:21:40.471 --> 02:21:40.971
today,
1730
02:21:41.830 --> 02:21:52.891
then we'll do it. But we haven't heard that argument. Every argument that we've heard is always about the future. It's always about the distant future. It's like, look. If you don't change your license right now, here's what's gonna eventually
1731
02:21:53.431 --> 02:21:57.050
happen to you. And I'm saying there's a lot of time between now and eventually.
1732
02:21:58.230 --> 02:21:59.370
Yeah. I mean,
1733
02:22:00.865 --> 02:22:04.165
first of all, I I like again, I feel kinda bad.
1734
02:22:04.944 --> 02:22:08.085
Not not because, like, we're we're shitting on you, but,
1735
02:22:08.649 --> 02:22:13.149
just because, like, I think you're you're standing up there kind of alone afraid,
1736
02:22:14.810 --> 02:22:15.550
on this
1737
02:22:17.345 --> 02:22:18.885
on this, you know,
1738
02:22:19.345 --> 02:22:25.445
not false license, and that's a I'll say this. I at least applaud your your ability to, like,
1739
02:22:26.040 --> 02:22:31.420
back your you've, like, obviously thought about this a lot to the point where you can back it up. So that's what I'll say to that.
1740
02:22:32.840 --> 02:22:33.640
I think that,
1741
02:22:34.885 --> 02:22:41.785
I think as a whole like, as long as you I just don't wanna be able to get, like, super butthurt while we're in the conversation,
1742
02:22:42.551 --> 02:22:45.610
because I I think as people get heated, I don't think it's a good,
1743
02:22:47.110 --> 02:22:49.690
a good way to articulate your feelings. But,
1744
02:22:50.710 --> 02:22:51.690
I I do
1745
02:22:52.135 --> 02:22:54.795
I do want thoughts on a couple things.
1746
02:22:56.375 --> 02:22:57.194
He said,
1747
02:22:58.215 --> 02:23:03.290
I don't know. He said code is code equals free speech. Kito, you wanna take it from there?
1748
02:23:04.710 --> 02:23:12.615
Yeah. Just a quick reminder. If if code was not considered as free speech, we wouldn't have PGP in Europe 30 years ago.
1749
02:23:15.155 --> 02:23:24.489
Basically, what what they did, Paul Zimmerman did is print out the code of PGP and send it with a physical person on an airplane
1750
02:23:24.869 --> 02:23:32.274
to Europe because it was illegal to export cryptography from United States as code, so he spotted it as free speech.
1751
02:23:33.055 --> 02:23:36.675
And I think this is basically where
1752
02:23:39.681 --> 02:23:40.181
cryptography
1753
02:23:40.800 --> 02:23:43.860
and and open source cryptography comes from.
1754
02:23:46.375 --> 02:23:46.875
In
1755
02:23:47.575 --> 02:23:50.555
98, 99, I was wearing a DCSS
1756
02:23:50.855 --> 02:23:55.035
T shirt with DVD encryption keys in the street just because
1757
02:23:55.851 --> 02:23:57.311
it meant fuck you,
1758
02:23:58.490 --> 02:24:00.170
proprietary code, and,
1759
02:24:01.770 --> 02:24:05.556
open source is the way to go, and I I still believe in that.
1760
02:24:06.176 --> 02:24:08.035
And, yeah, I I mean,
1761
02:24:08.415 --> 02:24:08.915
if
1762
02:24:09.375 --> 02:24:15.960
closing your source code is the only business model you have, you should really reconsider the way you do your business.
1763
02:24:17.620 --> 02:24:18.280
I mean,
1764
02:24:19.354 --> 02:24:22.654
yeah, I I would say, I've I've seen some good comments in here,
1765
02:24:24.314 --> 02:24:25.774
that, you know,
1766
02:24:26.540 --> 02:24:31.520
I think it's really easy. I think I think this is where people's, like, fear, right, and paranoia come in, Matt.
1767
02:24:32.540 --> 02:24:33.040
When,
1768
02:24:33.676 --> 02:24:35.216
I mean, Bitcoin and
1769
02:24:35.995 --> 02:24:36.495
cryptography
1770
02:24:37.115 --> 02:24:47.391
and privacy and all those things, right, I mean, most of those things, like, are not about the here and now. I mean, even running the sovereign apps. Right? Like, if I run Bitwarden
1771
02:24:47.851 --> 02:24:48.830
on their server,
1772
02:24:49.135 --> 02:25:04.650
like, nothing has happened. They've had haven't had any leaks yet today. Right? But what do we wanna preach to people? Right? Run that software yourself. Right? Because what if it does get leaked? Right? Like, all of our models I mean, like, particularly anything with where you're running something sovereign. Right?
1773
02:25:05.404 --> 02:25:09.585
I wouldn't say every model that's here because I think just running a core node is different. But,
1774
02:25:10.204 --> 02:25:17.160
when you're talking about, like, hey. Like, do this because one day, if this happens, you're screwed. Right? So,
1775
02:25:18.500 --> 02:25:20.601
when that paranoia sets in,
1776
02:25:20.995 --> 02:25:27.415
right, that's, like, where that I mean, it's a good mindset to have. It's a good thing to be in that mindset. Right? But
1777
02:25:28.340 --> 02:25:31.319
you gotta understand where all these people are sitting here going,
1778
02:25:31.779 --> 02:25:43.305
well, you said that your license works now, but in the future, we're gonna change it. And, like, I'm sure that if we had Umbrella appear, they would probably be saying the same thing. Right? Because it's a lot easier to,
1779
02:25:44.400 --> 02:25:53.700
to appeal to, like, everybody. I mean, like, yeah. No. We'll totally change it one day. And, like, it's like, unless there's, like, some sort of, like, part new license, like, I think,
1780
02:25:55.694 --> 02:25:56.755
was talking about with,
1781
02:25:57.215 --> 02:26:02.631
where hey. And for, like, the and the ops like, the business model. Right? Like, 4 years,
1782
02:26:03.570 --> 02:26:07.511
and the business license. In 4 years, like, we're gonna be open source. Right?
1783
02:26:08.745 --> 02:26:13.325
That's that's basically what you're trying to say that you would do if it worked in your favor.
1784
02:26:13.945 --> 02:26:17.645
But a lot of people have been saying, and, I mean, it's a good point, is that,
1785
02:26:18.240 --> 02:26:34.265
yeah, it's it's totally easy. Like, once if you got if if Embassy and Star 9 blows up and becomes the next Apple, like, are you really going to, like, be like, oh, yeah. No. We'll totally now that we're really big, we'll totally change our our license. And be like, no. We're like proprietary. We need to protect our stuff now because
1786
02:26:34.801 --> 02:26:43.860
we don't want some other, like, competitor to just come in and just take what we have. That would be the mindset. Right? That would be capitalist mindset. And I and I'm a capitalist. I think,
1787
02:26:44.545 --> 02:26:54.770
like, just to touch on that really fast, I don't think that anyone here should just be like, hey. I'm just gonna, like, donate my time. And, like, you need something to be able to pay for the time that you put into a project.
1788
02:26:55.471 --> 02:26:58.131
Having some sort of, like, revenue and business model.
1789
02:26:59.895 --> 02:27:10.869
Maybe whether it's, like, to take on VCs or whether it's to just support yourself, you need to have some sort of business model because that's otherwise, like, relying on donations is is not sustainable
1790
02:27:11.250 --> 02:27:11.750
whatsoever.
1791
02:27:13.090 --> 02:27:23.555
But, yeah, I think that's, like, the big question that I've seen probably 7 or 8 times in the chat just kinda sitting here about, like, oh, yeah. Well, in the future, you're gonna change it. But when you have all that power in the future,
1792
02:27:24.061 --> 02:27:37.445
are you really gonna change it? You know? And I think that's kind of the fear of anything that's closed source. Right. So since that was in large part directing me, I'd like to respond. Yep. I appreciate I appreciate all the comments, and they're valid concerns. Right? So, you know, we
1793
02:27:37.825 --> 02:27:38.725
very much
1794
02:27:39.265 --> 02:27:40.165
believe in trustlessness.
1795
02:27:40.740 --> 02:27:44.040
And so long as we have any control over our code whatsoever,
1796
02:27:44.660 --> 02:27:47.720
there is a degree of trust in us. If not today,
1797
02:27:48.100 --> 02:27:48.600
then,
1798
02:27:49.145 --> 02:27:53.405
you know, tomorrow as in you're not insured against us necessarily.
1799
02:27:53.785 --> 02:27:57.779
Right? Like, we could we could choose to become evil, for instance,
1800
02:27:58.399 --> 02:27:59.779
as as Google did.
1801
02:28:00.960 --> 02:28:01.779
But, like,
1802
02:28:03.226 --> 02:28:27.955
we are one participant in the marketplace too. Right? Like, this is not me. I'm not about to make an argument for why it's okay that we become evil. But what I'm saying is that the arguments being made towards me right now are that if we end up building something amazing and if everyone is using it and if we become evil, then we'll cause damage to the world. So one, there's a few ifs in that in that chain there. But 2,
1803
02:28:28.631 --> 02:28:29.610
it it ignores,
1804
02:28:30.230 --> 02:28:32.570
the rest of the world. Right? Like,
1805
02:28:33.190 --> 02:28:33.690
you
1806
02:28:34.311 --> 02:28:36.250
know, we talked earlier about competition
1807
02:28:36.825 --> 02:28:42.685
being an essential ingredient to building better software and more open systems and and everything, and I and I agree.
1808
02:28:43.305 --> 02:28:44.845
While we are doing something
1809
02:28:45.305 --> 02:28:45.805
complex,
1810
02:28:47.390 --> 02:28:54.689
we are not doing something impossible, clearly. Right? Like, I I would bet that many people who are on this call, if so determined to,
1811
02:28:55.550 --> 02:29:07.710
could, you know, build a more of a kinda embassy style operating system than a Bitcoin full node. Like, if you wanted to broaden your computing platforms, anyone can do it. And we would look forward to that competition.
1812
02:29:08.090 --> 02:29:13.950
We support all the products now, and we will continue to do so even if you come directly at us,
1813
02:29:14.365 --> 02:29:17.104
which, you know, maybe maybe will happen, maybe it won't.
1814
02:29:18.125 --> 02:29:28.190
But that's what keeps us honest. And, you know, I don't want to trust ourselves either. Right? That's where the licensing comes in. It's like once you release something with an MIT license,
1815
02:29:28.570 --> 02:29:34.955
you can't sort of go back and undo it. Right? At the code at that point in time is then free to use by anyone,
1816
02:29:35.815 --> 02:29:36.555
on earth.
1817
02:29:36.880 --> 02:29:45.939
And I want that insurance policy for myself. Like, there will come a day when I say, look, there's too much temptation. There's too much
1818
02:29:47.375 --> 02:29:49.795
too much attack vectors, whatever.
1819
02:29:50.255 --> 02:29:54.675
We need to protect the code. We need to protect the future. We need to think beyond
1820
02:29:55.135 --> 02:29:55.795
the business.
1821
02:29:56.550 --> 02:30:04.570
Excuse me. But this is not true. The whole point of the MIT and BSD licenses is that you can change the license at any time you want.
1822
02:30:06.035 --> 02:30:07.716
No. What I mean is once once
1823
02:30:08.516 --> 02:30:11.176
oh, well no. No. No. What I mean is that
1824
02:30:11.556 --> 02:30:14.455
if we release code with an MIT license,
1825
02:30:14.920 --> 02:30:22.380
right, then we could fork it and put a proprietary license on it. What I'm saying is that the code that has the MIT license on it can never
1826
02:30:23.345 --> 02:30:26.005
be, closed up again. Right?
1827
02:30:27.345 --> 02:30:27.585
Like
1828
02:30:28.545 --> 02:30:34.040
No. It can. It can. It can. It can. That's the whole point. It's a GPL license which is,
1829
02:30:34.520 --> 02:30:41.580
not allowing the to click on the Not not the MIT license. Like, what has already been released under the MIT? That's what I mean. That's what we're talking about.
1830
02:30:42.105 --> 02:30:54.600
What was with these? Yes. But you can kind of take the code and develop it further, and your your developments that you from that end on do can be closed. I agree. I agree. That's what I'm saying though is that the code at that snap that snapshot in time
1831
02:30:54.900 --> 02:30:57.640
can never be closed up again. So, like, if we ever release,
1832
02:30:58.485 --> 02:31:02.745
a snapshot of Embassy OS, and this has come up multiple times internally,
1833
02:31:03.125 --> 02:31:06.505
where we were like, alright. Well, why don't we just release like,
1834
02:31:06.880 --> 02:31:12.100
we go back, like, you know, 4 versions of Embassy OS and just let this sort of trailing,
1835
02:31:13.120 --> 02:31:13.620
opens,
1836
02:31:14.000 --> 02:31:17.096
faucing of our previous releases. That way,
1837
02:31:17.955 --> 02:31:20.755
at no point in time is there not a sort of,
1838
02:31:22.275 --> 02:31:31.500
a a a fauc instance of the technology. It's just not the cutting edge. It's just not the tip of the of the spear. That has come up multiple times, and is something that we have considered.
1839
02:31:33.515 --> 02:31:44.690
So I I it Zelko, it made well, you had a comment earlier that made it sound like everybody was against Matt, but I I don't know. I'll kinda defend him. I I agree with a lot of what he said. I think, you know,
1840
02:31:46.670 --> 02:31:53.075
the ability to take the things that you've created and and choose to put your own license on them is definitely a good thing. I don't think,
1841
02:31:53.635 --> 02:31:54.695
non false licenses
1842
02:31:55.875 --> 02:32:00.260
are inherently bad. I think a lot of net good can come from them. I don't,
1843
02:32:01.039 --> 02:32:03.619
necessarily believe that, you know, by
1844
02:32:04.159 --> 02:32:09.226
choosing something else, it's necessarily a net negative. And and like Matt said, you know, in a sense,
1845
02:32:09.686 --> 02:32:10.186
this
1846
02:32:11.045 --> 02:32:11.545
is
1847
02:32:12.405 --> 02:32:17.145
kind of a warring interest out there and and that from a number of different perspectives
1848
02:32:17.641 --> 02:32:24.540
is almost decentralized in and of itself, like, by creating companies and by creating, you know, FOSS, fully open source projects,
1849
02:32:25.256 --> 02:32:27.596
there's a whole lot of different, like,
1850
02:32:28.056 --> 02:32:30.075
vectors we can take to sort of
1851
02:32:30.936 --> 02:32:34.075
expand the Bitcoin group of people in the community.
1852
02:32:34.700 --> 02:32:39.120
I think a lot of people are comfortable with companies and that could be an avenue for,
1853
02:32:39.660 --> 02:32:56.550
you know, getting Bitcoin and obviously it's been happening getting Bitcoin into sort of the VC funded world and a whole lot of other worlds that are within like legacy financial institutions and just sort of continue creeping forward and taking over from that angle, as well as the free open source angle, as well as just the community people
1854
02:32:56.936 --> 02:33:05.115
running and installing wallets on their phone that might not even, you know, be running their own note. There are so many angles that you can take to expand,
1855
02:33:06.159 --> 02:33:06.659
you
1856
02:33:07.359 --> 02:33:15.380
know, individual and, like, taking control of your own finances that I don't necessarily think it's limited to just sort of the FOSS software projects.
1857
02:33:16.024 --> 02:33:17.965
Yeah. No. I mean, there's definitely
1858
02:33:18.425 --> 02:33:24.205
reasons why people would have it. I mean, and I keep saying it, like, sounds like Start9, like, had this, like, super long,
1859
02:33:24.580 --> 02:33:31.720
you know, conversation about it. And, I mean, I'm gonna I'm going to appeal to authority and just say that was true, but, like,
1860
02:33:32.340 --> 02:33:34.120
because I'm sure it was. But,
1861
02:33:35.225 --> 02:33:44.619
like, my my whole thing is why. Like, what like, what's the intent? Why did you decide to, you know, go closed source? And it's or not closed source, but restrictive.
1862
02:33:44.920 --> 02:33:49.979
Right? And the majority of time from what I've heard and what I would assume and I've seen from
1863
02:33:50.439 --> 02:34:21.200
Umbrell as well is that, oh, well, like, we don't want our competition to get a leg up to, like, come and just be able to take what we got and then just get this jump start. Or, like, we don't want people who took a derivative from my source code and then made it better. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It's just competition. Right? Like, at the end of the day, it's competition. Because if someone just forked it and then had the exact same release and then they just kept to you, say that I forked my node and I called it your node. Right? And then every release that you had, I just,
1864
02:34:21.740 --> 02:34:47.354
like, I just, took from upstream, and then I pushed the the same release, and I didn't change anything unique. No one is going to go to me. No one is going to go to the exact same product, and then they can go as soon as it gets exposed. Right? Like, maybe I'll get a few suckers that would buy it. Right? But I'm really just scamming people because I've provided nothing new. Right? Nothing whatsoever new. Now the moment that I started developing and providing new things or doing things different and I've had a now I have
1865
02:34:48.215 --> 02:34:50.314
a a more unique product, right,
1866
02:34:50.774 --> 02:35:01.979
at that point, like, we're different. Right? Like, so the derivatives and the work that, like, I've put in would get paid. And if, like, if that's not something that we can handle, right, something that,
1867
02:35:04.025 --> 02:35:10.270
as a as a software developer, if we're like, oh, well, like, I I don't want anybody to ever touch what I'm doing. Right?
1868
02:35:11.210 --> 02:35:19.595
Then, like, you like, you're just not you're too scared about I'm a like, I'm not using you, Taylor, as an example. Just like you're not too you're you're too scared to, like, get,
1869
02:35:20.555 --> 02:35:26.975
you know, to have competition. And who cares? Like, who cares? No one's gonna do your code better than you.
1870
02:35:27.330 --> 02:35:41.705
No one's going to steal your user base out of nowhere. Like, if you're that worried about a user base, like, that means that you don't you don't you know that you don't give a good enough product, whether it's support, whether it's software, whether it's whatever. If you're worried that someone is just gonna up and leave tomorrow
1871
02:35:42.085 --> 02:35:46.880
because, and, like, go to a forked version of you, then you are, like,
1872
02:35:47.260 --> 02:35:48.239
sorely mistaken.
1873
02:35:48.619 --> 02:35:52.000
Like, it has nothing to do with that. You, like, your
1874
02:35:52.715 --> 02:35:54.414
your customers and your users,
1875
02:35:54.795 --> 02:35:56.095
right, are directly
1876
02:35:56.635 --> 02:36:05.630
reflective of how good your your code is. So they're gonna And I think if you're talking about, like, a fairness level of things, the most fair thing to do in that case would be to respect
1877
02:36:05.931 --> 02:36:11.534
intellectual property rights and go into some sort of revenue sharing agreement where the foundation that it was based on
1878
02:36:11.835 --> 02:36:14.814
would be would have benefited. And I think my my my
1879
02:36:15.435 --> 02:36:17.854
situation in small software situations,
1880
02:36:18.170 --> 02:36:24.090
it's in, like, global, like, economies. Right? Right. Right. You're talking about, like, Apple, like, for
1881
02:36:24.810 --> 02:36:42.640
The total, like, removal of intellectual property rights for software development for, you know, designs of buildings, cars, airplanes, you know, architects would be totally on the job. Chemistry Those are, like, totally different things, though. Like, those are, like, not software versus software. So, like, right now, like still, like, it it it is it is ideas
1882
02:36:43.260 --> 02:36:44.080
and designs.
1883
02:36:44.465 --> 02:36:48.165
I get what you're saying. I know. Like, I get the personal like,
1884
02:36:48.545 --> 02:36:53.845
your, intellectual property. Like, I I get it. But here here's, like, the difference. Right? Let's say,
1885
02:36:54.850 --> 02:36:55.909
like, say that,
1886
02:36:56.850 --> 02:37:01.430
Apple or Google decides to take Ronin Dojo and fork it.
1887
02:37:02.034 --> 02:37:05.095
Like, I have AGPL, so you know what they need to do. It needs to be AGPL.
1888
02:37:05.555 --> 02:37:17.490
So now, yes, is it gonna get bigger? Are people gonna take it? Are they gonna work on it? Are they gonna do all this stuff? Yeah. And that's cool. But guess what? It's still open source, which is something that it would not have been. Yes. Google Dojo. Thank you, moms.
1889
02:37:19.064 --> 02:37:21.485
It would have not have been, right, had,
1890
02:37:21.865 --> 02:37:37.410
you know, pretend even, like, MIT, they could've closed it up or whether whether or not someone could just take it. Like, think just think about it from that perspective too. And who like, honestly, like, I don't care if someone makes some money off of, like, the base code that I wrote. Right? Like, that's
1891
02:37:37.905 --> 02:37:46.085
that's not about it. Like, if you're not able to, like, sustain because like, sustain your work, it's not about fairness. Right? It's about
1892
02:37:46.480 --> 02:37:50.980
the the openness and fairness of the and the freedom that your code provides.
1893
02:37:51.760 --> 02:37:52.960
Yeah. And and so
1894
02:37:54.485 --> 02:37:56.265
Sorry. No. You're good.
1895
02:37:57.125 --> 02:38:04.540
So I was gonna say, yeah. And then I think that's fantastic. I think it's great. Everything about that is is awesome, and I but I think it comes back to a person's
1896
02:38:04.920 --> 02:38:09.820
choice to how they wanted to implement it and do that in the first place. And that's why me, personally,
1897
02:38:10.306 --> 02:38:16.245
I I like I I don't like the license I chose. It was I misunderstood distribution versus, like, production use, but,
1898
02:38:16.945 --> 02:38:18.085
I think that
1899
02:38:18.891 --> 02:38:43.551
what I was looking for is more of a middle ground where, you know, maybe I have access to do what I want for a year or 2 or something, and then, you know, it goes fully open because I want it be. Like, at some point, if the project ended for whatever reason, not saying it is, I'm absolutely planning on continuing it for as long as possible. But, yeah, or or, I mean, Matt's, like, bus example. Right? Like, if something happens, I don't want the project to totally die. But at the same time, I think, there there's
1900
02:38:43.915 --> 02:38:45.774
reasons companies don't want to
1901
02:38:46.154 --> 02:39:04.535
cut off certain revenue models. And I think by keeping those revenue models open, you can still do very good things because that allows you to start it it allows you to generate revenue. It allows you to employ people and grow the, like, overall economy and then start getting things like marketing budgets that let you more broadly share
1902
02:39:04.915 --> 02:39:22.545
the the products that your company is creating in a way that, you know, some FOSS projects are a little bit more limited in. And all I'm saying is that I think there's different perspectives and it's not necessarily 100% good or 100% bad. And in my case, what I'm looking for most, I think, is sort of some middle ground, which isn't very well defined.
1903
02:39:23.005 --> 02:39:34.040
There's only a handful of licenses out there that even allow it, and that's why I kinda wanna start looking into that more and and see what options are out there to sort of find that middle ground where you don't have to be fully closed source,
1904
02:39:34.740 --> 02:39:35.641
but you can
1905
02:39:36.020 --> 02:39:38.645
don't have to, like, close off some of the revenue models that,
1906
02:39:39.604 --> 02:39:40.505
you might have
1907
02:39:41.685 --> 02:39:46.024
some attack vectors sort of against base if you want the fully open source model.
1908
02:39:47.890 --> 02:39:52.210
But I'm but, again, again and maybe circling all the way back to,
1909
02:39:52.690 --> 02:40:00.694
what what Matt was saying about Taproot and stuff. You know? Things like Bitcoin must be false. Absolutely. 100%. They have to be because,
1910
02:40:01.795 --> 02:40:02.774
it it is
1911
02:40:03.311 --> 02:40:20.050
part of that project. Like, it to become the decentralized foundation, like, layer for money, it's got to be open. It has to be open. It wouldn't work if it wasn't because then then you would have people that were sort of in control of it, and I I think it's a great reason Satoshi left and a lot of other things have happened,
1912
02:40:20.530 --> 02:40:27.510
over the history of Bitcoin that have allowed it to be sort of as decentralized as possible, which gives it a very unique advantage
1913
02:40:28.045 --> 02:40:38.780
over, like, every other shitcoin out there that, you know, people it's centralized. They're pre mined. They, like, you know, are dishonest in their marketing. Like, we don't want that, and we don't wanna be part of that.
1914
02:40:41.000 --> 02:40:45.895
Yeah. No. I mean, I I agree. And I think everybody has, like I said, I think everyone has,
1915
02:40:47.495 --> 02:40:48.715
their their reasons.
1916
02:40:49.415 --> 02:40:53.354
And that's why, like, I pointed it out. And I said, like, it depends on what your reason is,
1917
02:40:54.400 --> 02:41:03.285
and whether you can stand on 2 legs. And, like, that that was the other reason why I wanted to have all of this, knowing that not everybody has an open source license. Because,
1918
02:41:03.825 --> 02:41:15.580
you know, I think there there's something to say about having that, like, 1 on 1 or, like, me or, like, you know, Matt Hill sitting there dying on the hill of closed source not closed source, but, you know, restrictive,
1919
02:41:16.040 --> 02:41:19.205
license and, you know, being able to stand up and defend it.
1920
02:41:19.686 --> 02:41:32.200
But it's, like, one thing to be on Twitter or, like, what Telegram or wherever you're at, and you're just like, oh, yeah. Well, that's the choice that I made. And then it kinda ends there. Like, having a long form discussion is, like, the only way that people can really understand.
1921
02:41:32.580 --> 02:41:35.480
And, you know, for me, like, as far as, like,
1922
02:41:36.314 --> 02:41:39.614
you know, I I want the code to live on, and I think, everyone's
1923
02:41:40.234 --> 02:41:43.935
everyone's thought process and it says something too about
1924
02:41:45.270 --> 02:41:55.175
that if everyone if, like, both both of you, right, who are who've been defending it, defending, the restrictive license have said, well, one day I wanna make it open source.
1925
02:41:55.555 --> 02:42:10.680
Right? One day I would love to have it be, like, truly open source and whatever. One day that's gonna come. Right? But, like, that really just it it says that you should do it, but you have these hesitations for whatever reason. And and you've laid out different reasons, and that's fine.
1926
02:42:11.274 --> 02:42:15.535
And I know Matt laid out reasons, and that's fine. But, like, you gotta ask yourself, like,
1927
02:42:16.075 --> 02:42:16.575
okay.
1928
02:42:17.195 --> 02:42:27.750
Like, can I do this the way that I one day I want to? Right? Because you're gonna be in that same spot in 5 years. You're gonna be right back to where you were with probably
1929
02:42:28.226 --> 02:42:32.165
more problems because your business is bigger. And then you're gonna go, well,
1930
02:42:32.785 --> 02:42:50.806
I don't know. I don't know if I should go open source. I know I said I would one day, but not today. It's gonna be tomorrow. Like, you know that you want to because you've said it multiple times right now. Whether that's true or not, if you're lying to yourself, that's okay. But, like, hey. You you've you know that, like, the code needs to live on. You know that it it appeals to
1931
02:42:51.266 --> 02:42:51.766
the,
1932
02:42:52.705 --> 02:42:54.485
the core ethos of Bitcoin
1933
02:42:55.186 --> 02:42:57.880
and, like, the decentralized nature of everything.
1934
02:42:58.181 --> 02:42:58.681
Right?
1935
02:42:59.061 --> 02:43:00.601
But you have to,
1936
02:43:01.141 --> 02:43:04.425
you have to really, like, accept that. Accept that, like, you're,
1937
02:43:05.045 --> 02:43:06.984
like, continuing to push it to the future
1938
02:43:07.364 --> 02:43:09.625
isn't isn't necessarily going to change anything.
1939
02:43:10.005 --> 02:43:10.505
And,
1940
02:43:11.351 --> 02:43:15.851
you know, that it's just something to think on. I'm not sitting here saying, like, you know, you're wrong or whatever.
1941
02:43:17.030 --> 02:43:18.650
I think everyone has their reasons.
1942
02:43:19.351 --> 02:43:20.650
I personally just disagree.
1943
02:43:22.375 --> 02:43:33.200
I disagree with the idea of of closing my stuff down because I I don't really care. Like, if my code got forked and more people use it, then that's that's fucking cool, then I can retire happy.
1944
02:43:34.301 --> 02:43:34.801
But
1945
02:43:35.655 --> 02:43:38.314
Just to address some person's questions,
1946
02:43:38.694 --> 02:43:39.194
do
1947
02:43:39.655 --> 02:43:41.515
any of the speakers believe
1948
02:43:42.511 --> 02:43:54.436
any IP should exist at all? I don't believe any IP should exist at all. I I think it's a construct like like said in the chart. Good. Good. Good. And and it should should not exist.
1949
02:43:55.136 --> 02:43:56.755
It's just totally stupid.
1950
02:43:59.569 --> 02:44:03.989
Communist. Yep. May maybe to to add that. I think something like trademarks is okay.
1951
02:44:04.369 --> 02:44:07.510
At least it's a compromise that I can see value in. For example,
1952
02:44:07.855 --> 02:44:14.596
Linux, as far as I tried to read up on the history. In the beginning, Linux was saying, yeah. It's just okay. But then were people trying to
1953
02:44:15.220 --> 02:44:20.520
give false attention under that name to to so so there was even then the Linux Foundation taking this trademark,
1954
02:44:20.899 --> 02:44:22.760
and this is Linux is a trademark.
1955
02:44:25.824 --> 02:44:28.484
They make even money to some certain degree,
1956
02:44:28.944 --> 02:44:32.050
at least to have some trademarking. But the code itself to have
1957
02:44:32.530 --> 02:44:33.030
property,
1958
02:44:33.410 --> 02:44:33.910
IP,
1959
02:44:34.290 --> 02:44:38.550
intellectual property on code and stuff, yeah, that's also a very sketchy thing.
1960
02:44:42.935 --> 02:44:54.190
So, guys, I mean, this has been a great conversation so far. Before we wrap up, I mean, do we wanna talk about hardware trade offs at all? I think that's a pretty important aspect of,
1961
02:44:55.610 --> 02:44:58.830
how users decide, you know, which nodes they wanna run as well.
1962
02:44:59.846 --> 02:45:15.149
Yeah. But I have one topic maybe because we have everybody in the room that's Hit us. To, the the question about migration between nodes. So I think it's perfectly fine if somebody starts off with, with those easy to use node and what's maybe best tailored to get into the space.
1963
02:45:15.636 --> 02:45:30.725
But, of course, people, the freedom to choose, and it's also then let the market decide a little bit. So make it easy for people to to switch projects, maybe take their blockchain with take their channels with them, all those those kind of things, and additional apps maybe that have data. There's also the other app on the other
1964
02:45:31.125 --> 02:45:33.604
project that can can support or something. So,
1965
02:45:34.165 --> 02:45:37.944
just as an example, Raspi bullets introduced with the latest version 1.7,
1966
02:45:38.641 --> 02:45:41.141
the migration features so that you can turn,
1967
02:45:41.520 --> 02:45:42.900
a my node or an Umbrel
1968
02:45:43.280 --> 02:45:47.095
into a So not everything, the additional app apps not,
1969
02:45:47.654 --> 02:45:48.455
but the,
1970
02:45:48.935 --> 02:45:53.274
block you can reuse the blockchain, and you can take your channels, your LND channel
1971
02:45:54.135 --> 02:46:04.635
to your, Respiblitz LND then. This was for me after having this discussion with Umbrel on Twitter and stuff, and and, it was was for me at least the the the very important to
1972
02:46:05.035 --> 02:46:13.801
offer the option to people if they wanna change to make it easier to change and to reduce even this lock in situation. And I even think it's a service to to other projects
1973
02:46:14.261 --> 02:46:29.404
to so so so they can say, look. We're not completely locked in. You can't migrate here. We we have this option for you available at at at at this recent version and stuff. So I just wanted to ask. We have MyNode in in the room. How do you feel about the rest of it's offering a migration?
1974
02:46:29.784 --> 02:46:35.580
Would you would you build it even the other way around so that people can migrate from Respirates to my note? How do you feel about it?
1975
02:46:37.800 --> 02:47:20.984
Yeah. I mean, I'm totally fine with that. Like, offering projects that help, you know, migrate and let users switch between the various platforms, I think that's fantastic. We've got we don't have a a tool, but we have, like, the the instructions on how to migrate blockchain data. Not necessarily the L and D channels yet, but the blockchain data from any node or, you know, whether it's a different node or it's just running Bitcoin Core on your computer, it's it's very easy to enable that migration. And like you said, yeah, the the app data would be a lot more difficult to get across the board. But I think what I've seen in users talking with me, the the biggest thing they care about is actually the blockchain data because, you know, most people wanna avoid redownloading the blockchain and not taking 3, 4, 5 days or whatever and, potentially using up data caps.
1976
02:47:21.364 --> 02:47:33.035
So they kinda want that problem so that they can switch and try things out easier. That might be the case right now that the blockchain data is people's biggest concern, but if if we have a high fee environment, a sustained high fee environment,
1977
02:47:33.495 --> 02:47:34.476
which I still
1978
02:47:34.855 --> 02:47:38.075
expect us to have even though the mempools keep clearing,
1979
02:47:39.220 --> 02:47:48.120
It could get very expensive for people to have to close lightning channels in migration. So it to be able to to to be able to pull your channels through a different project,
1980
02:47:48.755 --> 02:47:55.415
to a different implementation is extremely important because that could be a major lock in cost. Right? That could end up costing people,
1981
02:47:56.030 --> 02:47:59.729
you know, 100 of dollars, if not 1,000 of dollars to, transition.
1982
02:48:00.990 --> 02:48:04.130
Yeah. We definitely need to be able to migrate the same,
1983
02:48:05.595 --> 02:48:08.175
between the same kind of lightning notes.
1984
02:48:08.715 --> 02:48:09.215
The
1985
02:48:09.915 --> 02:48:13.215
people even do want to migrate between different
1986
02:48:13.630 --> 02:48:19.569
lightning implementations, which is not currently possible, but even that should be something which is available for people.
1987
02:48:21.470 --> 02:48:22.930
Definitely, blockchain is,
1988
02:48:23.355 --> 02:48:27.055
you know, you can download it anytime, but you cannot open channels for free.
1989
02:48:28.875 --> 02:48:57.310
Yeah. So, I I mean, I think that's a really good point about migrating the channels, but even more what I've seen more often regarding that is, you know, like, data corruption on a drive. Like, somebody's power goes out and then, well, you know, there's some corruption and they've gotta restore. Like, I think Lightning has that that's sort of the biggest negative that I've seen lately. It's it's when something goes wrong and, you know, that database gets created, you can get your funds back, but it means closing all your channels and reopening funds. So I think,
1990
02:48:58.405 --> 02:48:59.145
I don't know.
1991
02:48:59.525 --> 02:49:06.425
This is a totally different top topic, but it would be awesome if there were, like, better ways in the future to recover lightning channels.
1992
02:49:07.160 --> 02:49:12.460
Because, yeah, my it's a migration problem, but, the exact same problem is also just a, you know,
1993
02:49:13.000 --> 02:49:15.100
data corruption problem and having to restore
1994
02:49:15.545 --> 02:49:32.155
your Lightning node somewhere else incurs the exact same set of costs, which, like, in the future, I think will be far higher than it is today. I mean, even, you know, a couple months ago, it would have been pretty extreme to reopen, you know, at 10 channels, 15 channels, whatever people have that can definitely be, an expensive
1995
02:49:32.936 --> 02:49:34.315
thing to have happen to them.
1996
02:49:34.936 --> 02:49:37.035
Oh, yeah. No. No. We what Brute was
1997
02:49:37.490 --> 02:49:45.350
building, like, for Umbrel, it's working already and with, like, minor experimental as well. I mean, it's just a script, you know, that
1998
02:49:46.225 --> 02:49:49.524
you can take the data, the lnd channel database,
1999
02:49:49.904 --> 02:49:53.400
and the actual wallet file and just, you know, copy it over
2000
02:49:53.960 --> 02:50:08.535
because we're running the same architecture even you know, it's it's quite the same software l and d, so it it's portable like that. So this is not about, like, backup and restore kind of thing. This is about, changing the software all around l and d.
2001
02:50:09.715 --> 02:50:19.510
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm just saying the alternative to the the automated script backup is the same as the recovery, which incurs high costs. But, yeah, I'm I'm totally on board with scripts that can help migrate,
2002
02:50:20.850 --> 02:50:27.386
because it it between nodes. Yeah. It obviously could be 2 ways. Like, you know, you could you could offer to migrate from other,
2003
02:50:27.846 --> 02:50:41.335
node implementations as well if people want to want to change. I mean, I think that'd be fantastic. I'd love to I I've heard about it, but I haven't taken a look. I'd like to go take a look and help out and see if there's anything I can do to help make it more robust between the various node implementations.
2004
02:50:42.675 --> 02:50:45.175
Excellent. Taylor, we would help you, but
2005
02:50:46.035 --> 02:50:46.775
we can't.
2006
02:50:47.890 --> 02:50:53.270
I'm just kidding. What? Absence joke. Never mind. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
2007
02:50:53.890 --> 02:50:56.229
You're alive. You can. I swear to god.
2008
02:50:56.645 --> 02:50:58.265
My bad. I'm just I'm just
2009
02:50:58.565 --> 02:50:59.465
messing you today.
2010
02:51:00.885 --> 02:51:03.465
I I think as the only non lightning,
2011
02:51:05.080 --> 02:51:06.540
non lightning node in the channel,
2012
02:51:06.920 --> 02:51:07.819
yeah. I just
2013
02:51:08.120 --> 02:51:09.180
I I also,
2014
02:51:10.359 --> 02:51:13.020
we've been working on migration as well,
2015
02:51:13.495 --> 02:51:14.935
from Umbro and,
2016
02:51:15.415 --> 02:51:17.114
and myNode for our users.
2017
02:51:18.215 --> 02:51:23.320
Particularly, I mean, we have a obviously, we support Dojo. We have a ton of people that want to,
2018
02:51:24.100 --> 02:51:25.240
they want a dedicated
2019
02:51:25.700 --> 02:51:33.296
device for their Dojo. So we get that is something that, like, has been working on, and, he's actually finished. He just we just need testers.
2020
02:51:33.835 --> 02:51:34.075
So,
2021
02:51:35.195 --> 02:51:38.016
I did spin up a a last pilot, so
2022
02:51:38.395 --> 02:51:39.775
so shout out to you guys.
2023
02:51:40.560 --> 02:51:42.580
I'll be testing that when I come back, but
2024
02:51:44.640 --> 02:51:51.096
I think we should be having that. I think that it should be something easy. I mean, like, the users have already already,
2025
02:51:51.476 --> 02:51:53.495
you know, downloaded and verified the blockchain.
2026
02:51:53.796 --> 02:51:54.296
So,
2027
02:51:55.075 --> 02:51:58.775
having it easy to transport that IBD is, is
2028
02:51:59.090 --> 02:52:01.430
definitely a nice thing to have for all the users.
2029
02:52:01.890 --> 02:52:04.949
But something tells me that Umbro probably won't do that,
2030
02:52:06.125 --> 02:52:07.905
but that's okay. It's cool.
2031
02:52:09.485 --> 02:52:12.785
I do wanna talk about the hardware differences though since, many
2032
02:52:13.300 --> 02:52:22.439
what everybody is r pi 4 except for me and I mean, we support r pi 4, but me and, Keter Miner, we're the only ones that our main
2033
02:52:22.886 --> 02:52:25.306
flagship is not a Raspberry Pi.
2034
02:52:25.766 --> 02:52:26.266
So
2035
02:52:26.886 --> 02:52:28.186
hardware trade offs.
2036
02:52:31.399 --> 02:52:32.300
Should I start?
2037
02:52:33.319 --> 02:52:36.220
Yeah. Sure. Hardware guy. Go for it.
2038
02:52:37.000 --> 02:52:38.060
So two things.
2039
02:52:38.505 --> 02:52:39.484
The the
2040
02:52:39.944 --> 02:52:46.364
Raspberry Pi doesn't have an open source firmware, and it runs everything on top of a Microsoft owned hypervisor.
2041
02:52:47.510 --> 02:52:50.970
That's one reason we don't use Raspberry Pi.
2042
02:52:51.270 --> 02:52:54.010
The other one is, historically, when we started,
2043
02:52:54.676 --> 02:52:57.815
the Raspberry Pi was underpowered, and the
2044
02:52:58.275 --> 02:52:59.895
the rock 64 board
2045
02:53:00.436 --> 02:53:06.760
we have chosen to build our devices was much more powerful than the Raspberry Pi had more memory and more CPU.
2046
02:53:10.315 --> 02:53:14.495
Yeah. I mean, the CPU is massive. Like, I don't think people realize how, like
2047
02:53:15.195 --> 02:53:19.980
like, everyone talks about the RAM. You know, like, oh, there's a 8 gig RAM on Raspberry Pi now.
2048
02:53:20.540 --> 02:53:25.921
It's like, that's not the, like I don't know. That's that's my I've noticed better speed, better,
2049
02:53:26.940 --> 02:53:27.440
performance
2050
02:53:28.245 --> 02:53:28.905
with the,
2051
02:53:29.524 --> 02:53:30.265
6 CPU.
2052
02:53:30.885 --> 02:53:31.385
Right?
2053
02:53:31.925 --> 02:53:33.465
Then then what,
2054
02:53:34.405 --> 02:53:36.330
I think it's 6. Well, then what,
2055
02:53:36.811 --> 02:53:44.590
what's called then what the Raspberry Pi 4 has. I mean, it works. It's just definitely not Yeah. I I I mean, if you want any fully open source
2056
02:53:46.435 --> 02:53:46.935
ARM
2057
02:53:47.795 --> 02:53:51.175
based processor today, you go with the r k 4399,
2058
02:53:51.955 --> 02:53:53.255
which we both use.
2059
02:53:53.710 --> 02:53:54.210
The
2060
02:53:56.990 --> 02:53:58.930
oh, the the rock chip?
2061
02:53:59.710 --> 02:54:00.210
Yeah.
2062
02:54:01.235 --> 02:54:04.935
Yeah. I'm, I'm pretty happy with it. What about
2063
02:54:05.314 --> 02:54:10.215
what about physical security? I think, the model currently is the only one offering
2064
02:54:11.270 --> 02:54:12.170
out of the box,
2065
02:54:12.710 --> 02:54:13.450
kill switch,
2066
02:54:14.229 --> 02:54:15.290
full disk encryption.
2067
02:54:16.070 --> 02:54:20.570
Yeah. Well, well, to be honest, it's more of a gimmick than anything else because,
2068
02:54:22.025 --> 02:54:24.045
the the memory
2069
02:54:24.425 --> 02:54:25.965
attack that we are
2070
02:54:26.905 --> 02:54:29.645
trying to protect against is based on
2071
02:54:30.561 --> 02:54:34.101
memory that can be physically removed from a machine. So,
2072
02:54:36.240 --> 02:54:46.354
what what what happened is if you take a memory module from a PC, if you freeze it, you can put it in another PC and reread the keys from that memory.
2073
02:54:46.975 --> 02:54:48.700
But in our devices,
2074
02:54:49.561 --> 02:54:51.740
and I am speaking for all of us here,
2075
02:54:52.601 --> 02:55:03.145
the memory is soldered to the to the board. So, anyway, if you want to freeze the memory and unsolder it to transfer it to an another board, you will unfreeze it anyway.
2076
02:55:03.680 --> 02:55:04.500
So, yeah, it's
2077
02:55:04.960 --> 02:55:10.340
a nice to have, but it's not something really mandatory. It's free. It's it's really,
2078
02:55:11.359 --> 02:55:13.585
hardware gaming. But, yeah, we we have that.
2079
02:55:14.065 --> 02:55:14.645
It it
2080
02:55:15.185 --> 02:55:19.025
it applies more if you plug in a cold car in,
2081
02:55:19.505 --> 02:55:21.045
HSM mode, for example,
2082
02:55:22.170 --> 02:55:30.590
because it will also kill the power to the HSM. So the the keys from your cold card will be disabled when someone opens the physical case.
2083
02:55:33.835 --> 02:55:36.495
Hey, Kito. I just wanna let you know that you're a nerd.
2084
02:55:37.195 --> 02:55:38.175
Just that's all.
2085
02:55:38.795 --> 02:55:39.695
And, I mean,
2086
02:55:40.471 --> 02:55:45.931
it would be who of me to mention, I believe, RaspiBlitz has a separate strategy where all the individual
2087
02:55:46.710 --> 02:55:52.125
portions are encrypted rather than full disk encryption, and I believe the case that they offer
2088
02:55:52.766 --> 02:55:58.306
one of the cases they offer requires you to unplug the power to open the case,
2089
02:55:59.610 --> 02:56:00.830
which is a,
2090
02:56:03.530 --> 02:56:11.325
kind of like a brute force, a mechanism way to to do a kill switch without a kill switch. What about the idea of redundant drives
2091
02:56:11.705 --> 02:56:21.540
for running a lightning routing node? How important is that? I I feel like it it is really under discussed. I know the Nautle dojo comes with that out of the box.
2092
02:56:25.615 --> 02:56:28.595
Sorry, guys. This is, this is your guys' conversation. There,
2093
02:56:29.695 --> 02:56:31.795
Minot or s 9.
2094
02:56:34.490 --> 02:56:38.270
We're you're talking about what did you say? Redundant drives for LD?
2095
02:56:38.730 --> 02:56:39.851
Yeah. It's not about the
2096
02:56:49.950 --> 02:56:56.690
we are targeting that for later this year, but, no, we don't we don't offer it right now. So, you know, our initial hardware approach
2097
02:56:57.535 --> 02:56:59.774
was fast, furious, and a little bit reckless.
2098
02:57:00.175 --> 02:57:02.995
Admittedly, it was a mistake the way that we launched the embassy.
2099
02:57:03.854 --> 02:57:07.851
We put a lot more effort into the software than thought into the hardware.
2100
02:57:08.230 --> 02:57:11.290
We launched with a micro SD, which is basically running everything,
2101
02:57:11.830 --> 02:57:17.125
and you create manual backups by inserting a thumb drive. So almost all of our hardware WOs,
2102
02:57:17.745 --> 02:57:21.846
are being rectified in 0 three o, which is coming, next month. So
2103
02:57:23.439 --> 02:57:26.100
RAID is coming in October is the latest,
2104
02:57:26.960 --> 02:57:30.899
feedback that we've gotten from the McClellan brothers who are really the force behind everything
2105
02:57:31.495 --> 02:57:33.115
at the c OS and Bitcoin.
2106
02:57:36.055 --> 02:57:41.420
So what what I would really like to point out is that the another one which has only one drive
2107
02:57:41.800 --> 02:57:44.779
actually allows you to build the RAID,
2108
02:57:45.319 --> 02:57:45.819
mirroring.
2109
02:57:46.315 --> 02:57:47.775
If you plug in an external,
2110
02:57:48.476 --> 02:57:48.976
SSD,
2111
02:57:49.755 --> 02:57:50.255
it's,
2112
02:57:51.035 --> 02:57:57.020
configured to be so like, the the internal SSD is actually a one drive mirror
2113
02:57:57.480 --> 02:58:02.061
composed of only one drive. And if you plug an external hard drive, you can
2114
02:58:02.915 --> 02:58:03.975
set up the mirroring
2115
02:58:04.354 --> 02:58:06.295
to any of our device.
2116
02:58:08.835 --> 02:58:11.495
Yeah. Quickly from the recipe blitz, there is
2117
02:58:12.270 --> 02:58:15.971
body refs support experimental in there for some versions now,
2118
02:58:16.431 --> 02:58:20.931
that allows you to set up a rate. The only thing is really it's, it's it's hard to advise,
2119
02:58:21.391 --> 02:58:25.016
that you put directly to SSDs, to a Raspberry
2120
02:58:25.476 --> 02:58:27.655
Pi because of the power situation.
2121
02:58:28.275 --> 02:58:33.460
So you end up maybe having more problems because maybe power cuts out or something. So you can do it experimentally
2122
02:58:33.840 --> 02:58:47.806
at the moment if you adjust a second drive with a with a add additional power supply. This is why because it's a little bit more complicated setup that's not easy to use. It's not what we recommend at the moment by default. It's more for the people that know what they're doing.
2123
02:58:48.170 --> 02:58:58.444
And, and Open Arms is experimenting a little bit with, set of us on Juno setup. So so there are some at least we are on the topic, but we haven't found the sweet spot yet to really commend it to everybody.
2124
02:58:59.145 --> 02:58:59.645
Awesome.
2125
02:59:00.345 --> 02:59:04.561
Yeah. Yeah. I'm ready for my service. Yeah. Hold on. I Who does that work?
2126
02:59:05.020 --> 02:59:07.681
Oh, damn. No. Yes. So we're also,
2127
02:59:08.301 --> 02:59:12.635
for Ronin Dojo, we'll be working we'll be implementing the, RAID
2128
02:59:14.314 --> 02:59:18.495
and and Luke's encryption as well. I mean, I know we don't have the,
2129
02:59:19.045 --> 02:59:35.385
what's called the lightning to have to worry about the channels and whatnot. But, as far as ensuring that your data doesn't get corrupted and then having to redo everything else that you're doing resyncing all of your dojo and everything else, and and to include, obviously, your Whirlpool instance running in the event that a drive goes down.
2130
02:59:36.005 --> 02:59:36.950
We have that,
2131
02:59:37.910 --> 02:59:38.970
that should be in
2132
02:59:39.270 --> 02:59:44.891
by October as well. So, we're pretty excited to have that full stack support. But
2133
02:59:45.360 --> 02:59:46.605
okay. Awesome.
2134
02:59:47.545 --> 02:59:49.726
So so, yeah, I mean, you definitely,
2135
02:59:50.105 --> 02:59:51.325
cut out a lot of
2136
02:59:52.025 --> 02:59:55.405
the concerns if you just don't have lightning, because lightning backups
2137
02:59:55.770 --> 02:59:56.990
are a major issue.
2138
02:59:57.610 --> 03:00:02.030
I just wanna thank you guys. I mean, we're hitting the 3 hour point. This is a very important conversation,
2139
03:00:02.490 --> 03:00:02.990
and
2140
03:00:03.405 --> 03:00:05.825
I appreciate you all coming on here. I mean, we know
2141
03:00:06.445 --> 03:00:11.265
one of the major node projects did not come on here, so I appreciate you guys coming on here for this
2142
03:00:11.600 --> 03:00:13.060
no holds barred discussion.
2143
03:00:13.840 --> 03:00:15.060
Very important discussion.
2144
03:00:15.680 --> 03:00:17.060
I wanna thank you guys
2145
03:00:17.840 --> 03:00:19.300
a ton for coming on.
2146
03:00:19.994 --> 03:00:23.055
Before we wrap up, I guess, just final thoughts. We'll just go,
2147
03:00:23.675 --> 03:00:25.614
from left to right starting with Rudolf.
2148
03:00:27.990 --> 03:00:28.810
Yeah. So,
2149
03:00:29.590 --> 03:00:42.024
well, maybe to wrap up, at the moment, the recipe blitz, because we're talking about what, you know, to choose, the recipe blitz at the moment still likes you to use the terminal terminal a bit. So if you're not completely feel comfortable with that,
2150
03:00:42.610 --> 03:00:46.790
maybe some other node projects are still maybe a choice for you. But in the end,
2151
03:00:47.490 --> 03:00:58.846
it gives you a lot of, options on the terminal, a lot of early stuff to try out. So it's for the tinkerers a bit, for the people that like to concentrate on on run running a routing node at home.
2152
03:00:59.653 --> 03:01:21.160
And but but there will be and this is what we're working on, with the 1.8 release. There will be a web UI also on top. So this should be then more easily for people to use that are not that familiar with terminal. The terminal will always be available, and we'd also like to people encourage on their journey later on to jump in there and, and kind of gain their skills, level up a bit on their skills.
2153
03:01:21.700 --> 03:01:23.540
But we may we will make it more,
2154
03:01:24.186 --> 03:01:31.405
more easy to use. So if you're thinking about having an Umbrel or a minor, for example, there's already the migration features.
2155
03:01:32.410 --> 03:01:36.591
And, if you really like to have a web UI, maybe wait for the 1.8,
2156
03:01:37.370 --> 03:01:38.110
or 1.81
2157
03:01:38.570 --> 03:01:40.830
when you really want to have all the kinks worked out.
2158
03:01:41.525 --> 03:01:46.585
Then maybe this could be an option for you to continue your journey and maybe migrate to a Respiblitz.
2159
03:01:47.445 --> 03:01:49.545
Thank you, Rudolf. Taylor, final comments?
2160
03:01:50.230 --> 03:01:56.250
Yeah. I just wanna say thanks for having me on. This was a fantastic discussion. I was really glad to be a part of it.
2161
03:01:56.630 --> 03:02:11.100
I'm looking forward to, you know, expanding my node users and continuing to provide, you know, great services for them and expanding the number of apps. So if anybody has ideas for features they want implemented, you know, just hop on our GitHub or send me an email or follow us on Twitter,
2162
03:02:11.960 --> 03:02:16.220
and I look forward to continuing, you know, onboarding as many Bitcoiners as possible.
2163
03:02:16.805 --> 03:02:18.186
Thank you, Taylor. Zelco?
2164
03:02:19.285 --> 03:02:25.785
Yeah. I, I had a great time. I honestly was, I'm really happy that we got everybody in here. I I do
2165
03:02:27.530 --> 03:02:29.470
really wish that Umbrella was here,
2166
03:02:30.250 --> 03:02:31.550
not not just because,
2167
03:02:32.410 --> 03:02:38.115
you know, of everything that happened on Twitter. I I personally would have wanted it because I think that, like, just
2168
03:02:38.575 --> 03:02:40.435
like, everyone here owes it to their users.
2169
03:02:41.060 --> 03:02:45.080
We owe it to our users to explain our our positions and why we do what we do.
2170
03:02:45.780 --> 03:02:46.280
So,
2171
03:02:47.140 --> 03:02:52.435
I am glad. Thank you all for for actually, like, participating in this. It was a lot of fun. I learned a lot of different stuff, and,
2172
03:02:52.915 --> 03:02:57.815
and I definitely I respect everybody's project. I'm glad that we're all building tools towards the future,
2173
03:02:58.890 --> 03:03:01.470
We're all trying to make something good, which is awesome.
2174
03:03:01.850 --> 03:03:09.225
The only shout out that I got for my team is, we do have a brand new web design that's coming out, WebUI 2 point o.
2175
03:03:10.005 --> 03:03:11.064
Hopefully, by,
2176
03:03:12.965 --> 03:03:15.765
by October as well. We're gonna have it's
2177
03:03:16.530 --> 03:03:18.931
I wanna say it's like a cypherpunk version of,
2178
03:03:19.490 --> 03:03:20.311
of Umbrell's
2179
03:03:20.690 --> 03:03:22.790
nice pretty UI, so they better watch themselves.
2180
03:03:24.854 --> 03:03:32.135
So excited about that. And, and, yeah, if you're looking to run Whirlpool, you're looking to run your dojo and, you know, the most stable one you got, go ahead and,
2181
03:03:33.510 --> 03:03:36.570
head us up in Telegram or, just download our code.
2182
03:03:37.030 --> 03:03:39.530
Awesome. Thanks, Zelco. Kito, final thoughts.
2183
03:03:40.835 --> 03:03:44.615
So first of all, I'm very happy to have talked with all of you guys.
2184
03:03:45.075 --> 03:03:45.975
Some of them,
2185
03:03:46.435 --> 03:03:51.561
it was the first one. So I I hope we have some more talks after that.
2186
03:03:52.820 --> 03:03:58.680
Second thing, we just onboarded our first another employee, which is our support person.
2187
03:04:00.125 --> 03:04:04.945
And I hope our support level will improve from now on a lot.
2188
03:04:05.726 --> 03:04:06.125
And,
2189
03:04:06.605 --> 03:04:07.825
last thing is,
2190
03:04:08.760 --> 03:04:11.260
after Jack's announcement about El Salvador,
2191
03:04:11.800 --> 03:04:17.260
we started working about a very new product, which will be our first free,
2192
03:04:18.354 --> 03:04:19.575
as in free beer,
2193
03:04:20.995 --> 03:04:26.854
product. And I'm really hoping it will help emerging countries to move to Bitcoin.
2194
03:04:27.470 --> 03:04:32.290
And it's a really personal thing, and I hope it will it will work.
2195
03:04:33.069 --> 03:04:36.689
Well, that's awesome. Thank you, Kito. Open Arms, final thoughts.
2196
03:04:38.476 --> 03:04:52.650
Yes. So, I I just would like to mention the project join inbox, which is I I didn't speak about because it's not really a full node project because it runs with a pruned chain if, just running standalone. It's more like part of the raspiblitz,
2197
03:04:53.110 --> 03:04:58.015
but it's made made to it's made it's basically a wrap around drone market to to
2198
03:04:58.795 --> 03:05:03.615
be able to start it quick. And if it's running alone, then it helps you to
2199
03:05:04.940 --> 03:05:08.721
download the blockchain and insta join market and just, you know, get going
2200
03:05:09.340 --> 03:05:10.320
terminal terminal
2201
03:05:10.700 --> 03:05:11.840
usage, SSH
2202
03:05:12.141 --> 03:05:13.120
at least necessary.
2203
03:05:13.854 --> 03:05:14.354
So,
2204
03:05:14.975 --> 03:05:15.875
yeah, that's something
2205
03:05:17.695 --> 03:05:20.195
I I I will, you know, continue to develop
2206
03:05:20.655 --> 03:05:22.115
alongside and inside
2207
03:05:22.610 --> 03:05:24.550
of just the as well.
2208
03:05:24.931 --> 03:05:25.431
Otherwise
2209
03:05:25.971 --> 03:05:37.365
yeah. Thank you. It was a fantastic occasion. Respect to all the work you do, and, you know, it's a pleasure to speak to you also. Thanks thanks very much. Thank you, Open Arms. Matt, final thoughts?
2210
03:05:38.421 --> 03:05:41.240
Yep. Thanks, everyone. I had a great time.
2211
03:05:42.341 --> 03:05:48.806
You know, I didn't know what to expect coming in here. I definitely did not feel attacked in any way. I think that everybody's,
2212
03:05:50.226 --> 03:05:52.226
we'll call them arguments that were made against,
2213
03:05:52.785 --> 03:05:55.870
one or more of the decisions that we have made as a company are valid,
2214
03:05:56.270 --> 03:05:57.570
will be taken seriously.
2215
03:05:58.351 --> 03:06:03.970
And, there's an open line of communication for everyone here, to me and to the rest of the team.
2216
03:06:04.426 --> 03:06:05.886
There are 8 of us here now,
2217
03:06:06.506 --> 03:06:07.806
and we are all,
2218
03:06:08.585 --> 03:06:12.766
very, very passionate about what we are doing, and we are serious when we say,
2219
03:06:13.500 --> 03:06:14.640
that we're out to
2220
03:06:15.260 --> 03:06:17.680
to create the same future that you all are. So,
2221
03:06:18.300 --> 03:06:23.585
hopefully, we make good decisions along the way, and we will always try to make better ones as we go. And,
2222
03:06:24.445 --> 03:06:27.905
yeah, thank you all. I look forward to continuing the conversation.
2223
03:06:28.604 --> 03:06:31.185
Awesome. I wanna thank, all the Node projects,
2224
03:06:31.490 --> 03:06:34.070
the contributors who have joined us today for their time.
2225
03:06:34.770 --> 03:06:38.550
Open discussion in this space is extremely important. This is why we dispatch.
2226
03:06:39.315 --> 03:06:42.455
This is why this project was started in the first place.
2227
03:06:43.555 --> 03:06:48.840
I wanna encourage the freaks to run their own nodes and use their own nodes and play with these projects.
2228
03:06:51.220 --> 03:06:53.479
It's it's it's absolutely important,
2229
03:06:54.820 --> 03:06:59.475
to to just get your get your get your hands dirty. It's not as difficult as you think it is.
2230
03:07:00.255 --> 03:07:03.154
I wanna thank all the ride or dive freaks in the chat,
2231
03:07:03.510 --> 03:07:06.729
for joining us for another dispatch and joining us for all the other dispatches.
2232
03:07:07.109 --> 03:07:10.329
I wanna thank everyone for supporting the show and keeping it ad free.
2233
03:07:10.976 --> 03:07:11.715
Just a reminder,
2234
03:07:12.575 --> 03:07:15.155
all the archives are available at citadel dispatch.com.
2235
03:07:15.535 --> 03:07:19.395
You can support the show there. We have a sphinx tribe, a very active discussion,
2236
03:07:20.370 --> 03:07:22.391
surrounding Bitcoin over on Sphinx,
2237
03:07:22.931 --> 03:07:24.711
where you can also support the show.
2238
03:07:26.450 --> 03:07:28.935
If you if you just wanna go on your favorite podcast app,
2239
03:07:29.494 --> 03:07:40.210
you can search Ciddle dispatch in any of the popular podcast apps as well to subscribe. I wanna remind everyone that we have gone 26 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row. I appreciate you all for joining me
2240
03:07:40.670 --> 03:07:41.330
on this.
2241
03:07:42.110 --> 03:07:47.091
But next week, I will be off grid, so we will be skipping a week, and we will be joining back
2242
03:07:47.586 --> 03:07:49.926
for another Bitcoin Tuesday the week after that.
2243
03:07:50.306 --> 03:07:52.006
I need a little bit of r and r,
2244
03:07:52.625 --> 03:07:56.485
and I appreciate you all. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Mark. You have been incredible.
2245
03:07:57.450 --> 03:07:58.910
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, brother.
2246
03:07:59.370 --> 03:08:00.110
Thank you.
2247
03:08:01.690 --> 03:08:02.990
The parallel paradox.
2248
03:08:05.275 --> 03:08:06.335
Call it the Doxolil.
2249
03:08:10.955 --> 03:08:13.375
Waking up, I checked the price of Bitcoin.
2250
03:10:03.150 --> 03:10:04.370
Mister Swan and
2251
03:10:04.750 --> 03:10:05.730
Max. Every fellow
2252
03:10:06.190 --> 03:10:07.010
OG, RCT,
2253
03:10:07.870 --> 03:10:08.370
loomedart,
2254
03:10:08.750 --> 03:10:10.690
R and R, Dopes and Kobe.
2255
03:10:11.150 --> 03:10:12.045
If you don't know
2256
03:10:36.320 --> 03:10:45.805
there's no lie. See, I lost all my money in the exchange hack and the boating accident that happened after that. Plus, I'm down a couple racks
2257
03:11:46.561 --> 03:11:52.181
For those of you keeping track at home, that was our first time we've done a repeat track to end out dispatch.
2258
03:11:52.801 --> 03:11:55.301
That guy is a real freak. Captain Youth
2259
03:11:55.635 --> 03:11:59.175
Track is called Bitcoin. You can follow him on Twitter, l captain youth.
2260
03:12:00.114 --> 03:12:06.939
We have to support our Bitcoin artists. The dream of dispatch is to tend every dispatch with a a proper Bitcoin track.
2261
03:12:07.240 --> 03:12:09.740
I love you all. I'll see you on RHR on Thursday.
2262
03:12:10.840 --> 03:12:20.730
Even though I'll be off grid, we will still make RHR happen next week. Just no dispatch because it's harder for me to do a livestream than it is for me to just make RHR work.
2263
03:12:21.051 --> 03:12:23.070
Love you all. Stay humble. Stack stats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:04:09 PM
Duration: 11546.097
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:05.060
2
00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:10.505
3
00:00:11.365 --> 00:00:12.985
listen. I like Bitcoin.
4
00:00:13.445 --> 00:00:13.945
Right?
5
00:00:14.405 --> 00:00:14.905
Bitcoin
6
00:00:15.889 --> 00:00:16.630
is math,
7
00:00:17.170 --> 00:00:19.750
and math has been around for 1000 of years.
8
00:00:20.130 --> 00:00:29.585
And it 2 +2 is gonna equal 4, and it will for the next 2000 years. So I like the idea of investing in something that's reliable,
9
00:00:30.365 --> 00:00:30.865
consistent,
10
00:00:31.564 --> 00:00:33.985
honest, and a 100% certain.
11
00:00:34.690 --> 00:00:37.030
So Bitcoin has appealed to me
12
00:00:37.410 --> 00:00:39.750
because it's a way for me to invest
13
00:00:40.210 --> 00:00:43.269
in certainty. Where, again, I look at the difference between
14
00:00:44.005 --> 00:00:44.985
the Fed of 2013,
15
00:00:45.765 --> 00:00:46.825
the Fed of 2021.
16
00:00:47.925 --> 00:00:50.024
I I'm going how how can this
17
00:00:50.725 --> 00:00:53.065
do I wanna have faith necessarily?
18
00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.699
I look at the difference between Trump and Biden. Do I wanna have faith
19
00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:01.059
in that same reliability and consistency of human nature?
20
00:01:01.405 --> 00:01:06.225
And the linear nature of human nature, which we know is anything but that. You like Bitcoin at these prices?
21
00:01:07.085 --> 00:01:10.065
22
00:01:11.240 --> 00:01:12.460
23
00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:20.675
as a portfolio diversifier. Everyone always ask me, what should I do with my portfolio? My employees say I say, okay. Listen. The only thing that I know for certain
24
00:01:21.055 --> 00:01:23.395
is I wanna have 5% in gold,
25
00:01:24.015 --> 00:01:25.235
5% in Bitcoin,
26
00:01:26.335 --> 00:01:27.635
5% in cash,
27
00:01:28.330 --> 00:01:31.869
5% in commodities at this point in time. I don't know
28
00:01:32.570 --> 00:01:33.790
what I wanna do
29
00:01:34.170 --> 00:01:35.470
with the other 80%.
30
00:01:36.035 --> 00:01:40.375
I wanna wait and see what the Fed's gonna do because what they do will have a big impact.
31
00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:21.280
32
00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:25.520
It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.
33
00:02:26.275 --> 00:02:29.335
This is Citadel dispatch 26 for you
34
00:02:29.635 --> 00:02:35.495
freaks keeping track at home. That's over 6 months straight of Bitcoin Tuesdays that we've shared together,
35
00:02:36.150 --> 00:02:37.370
and we have a
36
00:02:37.750 --> 00:02:39.050
extra special one
37
00:02:39.430 --> 00:02:40.170
this week
38
00:02:40.470 --> 00:02:45.655
focused on running your own node and using your own node and the trade offs involved with that
39
00:02:46.935 --> 00:02:52.795
decision. Citadel Dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
40
00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:59.620
Before we get started, I just wanted to do a big shout out to all the freaks who support the show and help keep it ad free.
41
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:04.944
That's the way I wanna keep it. I want this show to be a show by the audience for the audience
42
00:03:05.325 --> 00:03:06.864
by Bitcoiners, for Bitcoiners,
43
00:03:09.090 --> 00:03:12.150
and just in the spirit of open source in general, just have it
44
00:03:12.689 --> 00:03:20.205
available for all. So thank you for that. I couldn't do without you. To the freaks who are joining us after the fact via the audio streams,
45
00:03:21.625 --> 00:03:23.245
that was Paul Tudor Jones,
46
00:03:23.950 --> 00:03:26.210
billionaire money guy, on CNBC
47
00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:28.130
talking about how he likes the coin,
48
00:03:29.070 --> 00:03:34.305
with Andrew Ross Sorkin, who hates the coin and has to constantly talk about it because
49
00:03:34.685 --> 00:03:37.345
his showrunners demand it because that's how they get engagement.
50
00:03:38.364 --> 00:03:41.905
Today, we will be focused on using and running a node.
51
00:03:43.500 --> 00:03:48.240
I've done a couple polls on Twitter in the lead up to this. One was in April.
52
00:03:49.020 --> 00:03:53.245
Do you use your own Bitcoin node? There was 55 100 votes,
53
00:03:53.625 --> 00:03:54.125
35
54
00:03:54.505 --> 00:04:05.290
percent 36% said yes, 36% no said no, almost 10% asked what is a node, and 20% had zero conviction whatsoever and asked to see the answers.
55
00:04:06.150 --> 00:04:07.530
I did another poll,
56
00:04:08.135 --> 00:04:08.635
yesterday.
57
00:04:09.495 --> 00:04:15.120
Similar question. 41% said yes. 35% said no. This time, I put not sure as an option.
58
00:04:24.515 --> 00:04:27.095
I think this conversation is more important than ever.
59
00:04:28.595 --> 00:04:36.919
What is a Bitcoin node? Before we get started, a Bitcoin node to interact with the network with the Bitcoin network, you need to use a Bitcoin node to do it.
60
00:04:37.220 --> 00:04:45.165
If you're not using your own node, you're using someone else's node, that means you have to trust them with both verifying the rules of the network and your privacy,
61
00:04:45.625 --> 00:04:49.805
so it's absolutely imperative if you wanna be a sovereign Bitcoin Bitcoiner
62
00:04:50.185 --> 00:04:50.685
to
63
00:04:51.440 --> 00:04:57.700
use your own node. It is the way it is the way to ultimately use the Bitcoin network in the most trust minimized fashion possible.
64
00:04:58.735 --> 00:05:00.914
We are fortunate enough to have,
65
00:05:01.775 --> 00:05:02.275
contributors
66
00:05:02.974 --> 00:05:03.474
from
67
00:05:04.095 --> 00:05:06.595
most of the leading Bitcoin node projects.
68
00:05:07.460 --> 00:05:09.800
That includes Ketominer from Noddle,
69
00:05:10.820 --> 00:05:11.320
Zelco,
70
00:05:11.940 --> 00:05:14.360
and Laikuo from Ronin Dojo.
71
00:05:14.945 --> 00:05:22.245
We have rootsol and openoms from raspi blitz. We have Matt Hill from start 9, and we have Taylor from myNode.
72
00:05:24.310 --> 00:05:24.970
This is
73
00:05:26.150 --> 00:05:30.569
a packed panel. We've never had this many people on a dispatch before,
74
00:05:31.190 --> 00:05:32.009
so please
75
00:05:33.815 --> 00:05:38.795
work with us here as we we go through this discussion. It is going to be a loaded discussion
76
00:05:39.335 --> 00:05:45.480
with a lot of opinions and a lot of moving pieces. So I just wanna do a big thanks for the guests for joining us.
77
00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:47.180
This is pretty exciting.
78
00:05:47.960 --> 00:05:49.580
For our audio freaks,
79
00:05:50.055 --> 00:05:51.835
they're gonna have a little bit trouble
80
00:05:52.215 --> 00:05:54.634
following the voices. So what I wanna do is,
81
00:05:55.495 --> 00:06:01.990
on the screen here, I wanna I wanna do introductions from each person so that they can kind of figure out your voice,
82
00:06:02.690 --> 00:06:06.230
and we'll start with Matt Hill. Matt, say hi to the freaks.
83
00:06:07.255 --> 00:06:07.995
84
00:06:09.015 --> 00:06:10.375
Want a little bit more voice,
85
00:06:10.695 --> 00:06:11.195
example?
86
00:06:12.375 --> 00:06:16.930
87
00:06:18.430 --> 00:06:21.250
88
00:06:21.735 --> 00:06:22.955
is Embassy OS.
89
00:06:23.975 --> 00:06:25.195
We sell it standalone.
90
00:06:25.895 --> 00:06:27.435
You can also build from source.
91
00:06:27.815 --> 00:06:32.650
We'd also sell it as part of an embassy, which is basically Raspberry Pi in a box,
92
00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:34.969
with a little bit of branding on it,
93
00:06:35.430 --> 00:06:36.569
plug and play experience,
94
00:06:37.075 --> 00:06:40.455
and it is designed to be a graphical operating system
95
00:06:40.915 --> 00:06:48.360
for self hosted software, generally speaking. So the fact that you are able to seamlessly run a Bitcoin node
96
00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:49.400
on Embassy,
97
00:06:50.820 --> 00:06:56.755
is not unintentional, obviously. It's the first service we offered, but our goals are a bit more broad than that.
98
00:06:57.295 --> 00:07:02.330
99
00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:04.990
but just do a quick introduction for the freaks.
100
00:07:05.930 --> 00:07:07.949
101
00:07:08.810 --> 00:07:14.335
In the function of a contributor to the rest of this project headed by Rudso.
102
00:07:15.115 --> 00:07:17.615
And, you know, looking forward to the discussion.
103
00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:24.830
104
00:07:26.225 --> 00:07:28.865
105
00:07:29.505 --> 00:07:35.604
and hosting this after, Miami. I know we talked about it, and it's cool to back be actually doing it.
106
00:07:36.690 --> 00:07:38.870
I'm glad that all these node projects are here.
107
00:07:39.570 --> 00:07:44.405
Me and, like, well, we, we're here from Ronin Dojo, so the samurai focused,
108
00:07:44.785 --> 00:07:45.925
full node project,
109
00:07:46.625 --> 00:07:51.205
to give you all your privacy needs. And, and, yeah, this this will be fun.
110
00:07:51.760 --> 00:07:55.540
111
00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:57.700
112
00:07:58.400 --> 00:07:59.825
Yeah. It's Ruthsol.
113
00:08:00.605 --> 00:08:03.585
I'm working with Open Arms here, on the Respiblitz.
114
00:08:04.205 --> 00:08:08.625
Kinda most of we call them maintainer or kind of a lead dev there.
115
00:08:08.990 --> 00:08:11.090
Kind of started a project back with
116
00:08:11.470 --> 00:08:18.155
the full more hectic days. It was always a platform to have a Bitcoin and Lightning node running on a Raspberry Pi,
117
00:08:18.535 --> 00:08:26.790
and to set it up yourself. You can get all the parts from Amazon and and build it yourself. So it's a whole GitHub. It's a tutorial to follow.
118
00:08:27.169 --> 00:08:28.550
And more and more developed,
119
00:08:28.850 --> 00:08:30.389
into a little bit bigger platform.
120
00:08:30.930 --> 00:08:35.535
And, yeah, it's, it's I think it's very community driven, so we have a lot of contributors
121
00:08:36.475 --> 00:08:47.530
kind of from those kind of events. The idea is coming a little bit more from an educational background and also kind of running and, optimizing to be a lightning routing node, from your home.
122
00:08:48.390 --> 00:08:52.435
123
00:08:56.015 --> 00:08:59.860
And he is at a barbecue right now, so he might not be listening to us.
124
00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:03.720
We'll move on to Taylor from Minode. How's it going, Taylor?
125
00:09:04.899 --> 00:09:10.705
126
00:09:11.085 --> 00:09:19.740
2019, early 2019, and, I mean, like most of the other guests here, the goal is to kinda be a a Bitcoin node and run, you know, self hosted software
127
00:09:20.520 --> 00:09:21.740
so that you can run it
128
00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:24.940
in sort of like a well, you can run it trustlessly,
129
00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:25.820
and,
130
00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.985
you can just build it yourself from scratch, but you can also
131
00:09:29.365 --> 00:09:35.625
buy one of our prebuilt nodes and kinda take that route. But one of the goals when I originally started was basically enabling
132
00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:45.660
or creating an easier way for people to run all the awesome, like, open source software that's out there. Right? Like, there's a whole lot of awesome stuff that starts with Bitcoin as a foundation,
133
00:09:46.025 --> 00:09:48.445
builds on top of it with the Lightning Network, with,
134
00:09:49.225 --> 00:09:50.925
mixing with privacy tools.
135
00:09:51.385 --> 00:09:54.665
And a lot of people sort of are interested in that, but maybe,
136
00:09:55.300 --> 00:10:06.755
don't have the technical skills to do it and wanna take an easier path to do that. So I really wanted to enable people to easily sort of run all this awesome open source software out there and, do it themselves and run it at their own home.
137
00:10:08.335 --> 00:10:10.595
138
00:10:11.055 --> 00:10:12.595
Laikuo is back. Laikuo.
139
00:10:13.550 --> 00:10:19.410
140
00:10:20.325 --> 00:10:29.065
talk to everybody on the no projects. I'm very glad everybody's here together, and we can discuss, you know, what we're working on and why running a full node is important to everybody's privacy.
141
00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:33.760
And I'd like to talk about, you know, open source, licenses
142
00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:35.839
and what that mean to everybody.
143
00:10:36.300 --> 00:10:39.555
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I I just wanted to before we get to I guess and we have Key2Miner here. Key2Miner return guest. Say hi to the freaks.
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most most younger siblings.
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So I'm the founder and creator of the Nodal Full Node. And as I remember, we are the oldest one here probably right now.
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And we have a few first in our history, like, 1st, BTCP in a box, 1st full tone out for 1st full disc encryption, and full 1st red setup in a note.
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To the new freaks, I mean, we have episodes
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already with, Zelco,
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with Open Arms, with Laquo, with Kidah Miner,
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with Matt Hill's partner, Keegan.
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So, I mean, we have episodes already on all these node projects except for my node.
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So feel free to go back to the back catalog on that. That's at citadel dispatch.com,
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or if you just type in citadel dispatch into your favorite podcast feed,
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all of those episodes will be there.
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That includes some of the other conversations that we'll be having surrounding these node projects, including licenses. I mean, licenses is a conversation that we've had many times on dispatch, which is why I think,
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it's a particularly well suited platform for this discussion we're about to have.
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Before we get started, since it's kind of early in the episode, it has been 26 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row. That's over 6 months.
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Next week, I am going to be off grid, so there will not be a Bitcoin 2 well, Bitcoin Tuesday always happens no matter what, but there will not be a dispatch. I will not be joining you guys for Bitcoin Tuesday next week, but I will be returning the week after that.
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So, a little bit bittersweet, but,
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if it makes you guys feel any better, I'm gonna be having a very good time off grid. So,
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a little r and r is needed.
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So let's just jump right into this.
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You know, I have,
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some key things I want to cover. You know, we already mentioned licenses. That is definitely gonna be discussed. But I think
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before we jump into that, I would like to start with
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trade offs in general. I think just high level trade offs. I also have about
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20 bullet points provided by 6102 Bitcoin.
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So we're gonna try and nail as many of those as we can nail and just kinda see where this discussion goes.
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So, I mean, the way I look at it is I think the overwhelming majority of the world is not using a Bitcoin node currently.
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I think the overwhelming majority of Bitcoiners aren't using a node currently,
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and I think a lot of them are intimidated.
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And I I I think,
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you know, one of the things you hear a lot of is just run Bitcoin Core on a computer that you have lying around. Maybe,
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use Spectre or Sparrow with it on the same computer, so then you can interact with the hardware wallet, and that's definitely something you can do.
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But if you wanna level up your game and you wanna use Lightning or you wanna use CoinJoin and you wanna have a dedicated 247 node,
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then then all of a sudden, these projects that you guys are maintaining and improving really come into play, and and a lot of freaks
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are kinda hit with
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a question, you know, which which which project do I use and what is what are the differences between those projects.
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1st and foremost, I like to say that the fact that that Bitcorders have so many options today is absolutely,
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amazing.
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So so cheers to all of you guys. I mean, if even if you just go back a year, 2 years ago,
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there really weren't many options at all.
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So it's really fantastic to see.
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So so with all that said,
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my first thought is,
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you know, you're a Bitcoiner, you're coming in, you're coming in, you're trying to decide
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which project you should use, which which nodes you should run. I mean, in some cases, you might be running multiple
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different,
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nodes.
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I guess we can jump into that too, but I think the main thing people are are asking themselves are what are the trade offs, and I'm I'm kinda curious how you guys approach,
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those trade offs.
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I I guess
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who who do we start off with here? You wanna start, Zelco? Yeah. Sure.
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But I'm actually gonna read from what Evan
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Cloud has said because he actually summed it up pretty well, and I agree with it.
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So he wrote that the best prebuilt is, nodal.
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For the best coin join coin joins, use Ronin.
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Best,
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for more technical users in LN,
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Lightning is RAS by Blitz.
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Best complete nontechnical
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people best for completely nontechnical people is Umbrell.
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Start 9 if you wanna self host,
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different,
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privacy apps, and then MyNode is the best selection of
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full scale Bitcoin apps.
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I mean, I think that hit it pretty on point. I mean, there's always nuances, but I think that was pretty pretty solid.
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Maybe open oh, yeah. Hit us.
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Okay.
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Umbrel is not joining us today,
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and we've never had them on dispatch. So
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take that with as you will. Hopefully, we will have them on the show at some time in the future.
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I'm kinda curious on, Matt's opinion on on Zelco's,
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framing there.
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mistakes in that. And I was this, did Evan sale this at the Fostome in Miami? Is that what you're referring to?
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response. So, like, we can definitely dive into more. I mean, there's obviously
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a lot of different
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a lot of differences between the projects. So,
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February
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2019, this was at Unconfiscatable.
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We were immediately
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pegged as a plug and play Bitcoin node, which was fine with us. Right? We were at a, you know, Bitcoin Maximalist conference, and we were there for a reason. It's because we offered a plug and play Bitcoin note. Now our approach to that,
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was a bit different,
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than I think all of the other implementations
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here, and that we were offering a full Bitcoin node
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on top of,
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our primary objective, which is a sort of generalized computing platform for running cell phones with software.
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Bitcoin just happens to be a piece of software that can be self hosted that should be self hosted.
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And so, you know, we sort of targeted the Bitcoin
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community as our initial target market.
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And so didn't mind being pegged as, you know, a Bitcoin
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node.
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And since then, we've done a lot of, you know, kind of grassroots
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marketing, just talking on podcasts and whatnot to try to explain,
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that we are not
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that. Right? We are very much trying to build a, like I said, DevOps in a box for grandma,
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you know, with principles of 0 command line ever
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and graphical configuration
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always,
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and have now been somewhat pegged as the
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use the embassy
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if you want to do other things besides Bitcoin, which, again, we're not upset about because we've actually pushed for this. But the reality is is that most of our users,
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who have either purchased or built an embassy,
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their feedback has been
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that it was
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the easiest
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setup process that they've had. And let me rephrase that. It's not I would not claim that the Embassy is necessarily the easiest setup process. I think that all of these implementations
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are quite easy.
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Where Embassy,
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kind of shines through
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is in the
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maintenance
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process
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when it comes time to configure things and manage dependencies.
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Because we've actually built a sort of computing platform,
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you, as a nontechnical user, can get in there. And rather than SSH ing in and adding a dotcom file
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or,
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updating your OS and getting a bunch of bundled new apps, you can sort of, you know, a la carte modularly
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install, uninstall, and configure various services
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without,
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fucking it up. Right? So it really is more of a,
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I don't know, agile
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experience
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rather than a plug it in and everything works. It's like plug it in and there's nothing.
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You actually go in
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and install the things you want to install, configure them the way you want to configure them, fire them up, and the operating system facilitates that entire process. So I think the experience is just different. I don't think it's valid to say which is easier.
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I think they're all very easy.
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It's just a different approach.
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process of, you know, setting up a Raspberry Pi. Like, if you know how to flash an SD card and plug in an external drive, I think most of the, you know, node implementations are about as easy.
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But I I
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you're probably correct, Matt.
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With my note as of several months ago, you know, we were very
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it had a set of apps. It wasn't configurable,
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but we've been migrating over the past, you know, 2 or 3 months to a a much more modular approach as well because I agree with that. I think it's a lot better. And
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probably has it too. I mean, they have all, like, the bonus scripts to go sort of install extra apps. There is a core set, but,
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you know, you can kind of add on and build on top of that. And I I think that's gonna be important because, you know, statically having one set of software isn't gonna be as flexible for the users, and there's gonna be a huge variety of,
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different types of users, I think, coming on board. And, Matt, to your point early on about, like, why run a node? I I think it's gonna get better and better over time as there's more software that relies on that, like, base Bitcoin foundation
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with, you know, the different chat apps and things that don't well, first, you have Bitcoin, and then on top of that, you can have Lightning That gives you sort of, like, a wallet plus, you know, a set of private keys that can, like, authenticate and do things. And then on top of that, you start having
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various services. Like, you could use LND Hub and start sharing that functionality with other people, or you can have, like, Sphinx and start having, like, secure decentralized chat applications. And so I think that's gonna be a big marketing drive to get people to start running their own node as you can have more and more functionality that people want to use because, honestly, it's not, like, the best selling point in the world to the average Bitcoin user, I don't think, like, hey, just run a note and validate your transactions. We all know that's important. A lot of people know that's important,
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but,
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I I don't think that's as good of a selling point for the average Bitcoin user. I think you're gonna have to, like, sell them with other apps and and
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show them cool use cases of things to get more and more people
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that the easier sell is the privacy side.
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I mean, that is a side that I've been more focused on, but I think it's something that's more tangible for people.
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Unfortunately, a lot of people don't really care about privacy, but I think most people understand why privacy
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is at least desired or important.
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So if you tell them rightfully so that, you know,
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it's really hard to use Bitcoin privately if you're not using your own node,
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then they realize that's an actionable
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step that they that they have to take at some point in their Bitcoin upgrade journey.
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This idea of verifying your transactions, while
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absolutely imperative
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for Bitcoiners to understand
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in the long tail is is definitely a harder thing for people to grasp.
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I I just
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a a key aspect here that I want it to be clear to the freaks is, like, no matter what you use, everything in life has trade offs. Right?
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And one of the nice things,
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you know, trade offs by trade offs, I mean pros and cons. Right? And one of the nice things about options,
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is that you're able to have all these different trade off balances that these different projects take,
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to find things that fit
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your current situation the best or your current prep model the best.
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Open Arms, do you have some insight here in terms of, like, how freaks should should think about trade offs when when they're thinking about, you know, which projects they wanna run?
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already if you're running Bitcoin Core on your on your Windows laptop, it is running a running a node. But it is
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much more difficult to do it privately and even more difficult or equally difficult to do it securely.
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So what
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is the single
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easiest and kind of most efficient thing
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to do is to take the things you are worried about
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from these two aspects and put it in a separate box with physical isolation.
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And and on there,
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you would want to run a software which you can
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which you are able to audit or at least people who you trust or know
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or birth can,
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you you need to,
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rely on their work, which is the software running on it. So you need to be able to verify this,
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you know, completely or as much as possible
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to be
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secure and also to trust that it's not leaking data you would you would want to avoid to be to be leaked.
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And
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so that's why these,
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projects are all in a in a separate box, and that's why we we all say that, you know, you should grab a Raspberry Pi. A wired Raspberry Pi, we can even we can go into that. Well, that's the most widely available and kind of free live
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single board computer available.
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But, like, Nodal doesn't use an Raspberry Pi, and most of the most
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of these softwares
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can run on other
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single board computers as well.
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So that's not a given either.
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So
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why so why why I'm working on respoblitz?
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I I think it's just because
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I've I've started to learn on it, and it is a kind of a platform which just makes you tinker.
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So
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it might be you might need to learn how to how to use SSH, which is which is just, opening another door to kind of another world of computer
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science, which which makes you able to do anything. And then you will be able to do things which you weren't thinking that there is much more to a computer than clicking a button. So, I mean,
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that is
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an an aspect, and, you know, we do have
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we also because of this kind of approach, we are on the cutting edge of of the of the
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especially the lightning related apps. So if you want to experiment, want to try things out
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quick
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and also
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learn more, then, you know, that's the best way to go. But, I mean, you know, I absolutely see
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the the things,
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which the this are strong in other projects as well. I run myself,
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around Endojo because, you know, I think that is good to have
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the,
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kind of what a Whirlpool,
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Semlerite wallet ecosystem
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just dedicated always on. You know? I don't I very rarely touch it whereas I think of it my respiratory everyday. Right? So it's kind of kind of,
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has its place,
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and I I love that it's it is like that. And,
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well, I I would also for new year new users
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who might not be that technical, not interested, you know, I would
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probably
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00:27:33.415 --> 00:27:36.715
tell to kind of buy buy a model or, you know,
368
00:27:37.255 --> 00:27:39.895
give a go of the of the other new projects which are
369
00:27:40.919 --> 00:27:43.980
which doesn't need to kind of get go into the command line at all.
370
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:47.980
Alright.
371
00:27:52.345 --> 00:27:55.065
372
00:27:55.545 --> 00:28:00.190
one one thing that our users probably noticed a lot of time is that we are slow,
373
00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:02.510
we in providing some upgrades.
374
00:28:04.010 --> 00:28:06.490
And, I would like to explain maybe why,
375
00:28:07.045 --> 00:28:09.385
we do that. We we want to provide
376
00:28:10.565 --> 00:28:13.065
the user experience with just works.
377
00:28:13.925 --> 00:28:16.505
And, we had too many cases of
378
00:28:17.270 --> 00:28:18.410
between, like,
379
00:28:18.950 --> 00:28:23.450
that particular version of Bitcoin d not running with that particular version of BTCPay
380
00:28:24.765 --> 00:28:28.385
or LND not playing nice in some version with some other services.
381
00:28:29.085 --> 00:28:31.025
So we we are extensively
382
00:28:31.485 --> 00:28:31.985
testing
383
00:28:32.410 --> 00:28:33.450
everything we do.
384
00:28:34.010 --> 00:28:37.930
I'm running, like, 10 different models at home just to,
385
00:28:38.490 --> 00:28:40.590
test various combinations of the software.
386
00:28:42.355 --> 00:28:48.855
Some also some internal choices like running MariaDB instead of Postgres for, BTP because,
387
00:28:50.760 --> 00:28:53.580
just because we run it for other services already.
388
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:55.320
And,
389
00:28:55.800 --> 00:28:57.180
Mario DB and MySQL,
390
00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:59.340
support in BTCPay is
391
00:28:59.934 --> 00:29:04.195
regularly broken. And, actually, I'm making PRs to fix it every time.
392
00:29:05.615 --> 00:29:06.755
So, yeah, we
393
00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:09.559
we are probably slow, but I'm
394
00:29:09.860 --> 00:29:10.760
hope that,
395
00:29:11.780 --> 00:29:16.280
people notice that usually when we put out an upgrade, everything works.
396
00:29:17.684 --> 00:29:20.265
It probably does 90% of the time because,
397
00:29:20.965 --> 00:29:23.225
I'm only me and, I make mistakes.
398
00:29:24.245 --> 00:29:29.050
But, yeah, that that's one trade off that you definitely have with the the model.
399
00:29:30.550 --> 00:29:33.050
400
00:29:34.684 --> 00:29:47.200
power users shouldn't be using multiple nodes? Like, because I my my feeling is that, you know, what OpenOM said is this idea that you run multiple nodes for different purposes and you kinda segregate them. So by design,
401
00:29:48.059 --> 00:29:51.280
you have some isolation there between the different things you're running.
402
00:29:52.015 --> 00:29:55.635
403
00:29:56.495 --> 00:30:02.170
you know, all these node projects offer different applications. You know, they, they offer a lot of lightning different applications,
404
00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:09.285
Bitcoin, you know, Spector, all these different wallets that you can implement on a Raspberry PI or a RockPro PI. But the problem is
405
00:30:09.745 --> 00:30:11.925
is users, you know, especially new users,
406
00:30:12.465 --> 00:30:13.925
want to run everything
407
00:30:14.305 --> 00:30:21.190
that's on there. And that's gonna cause a lot of issues with these devices who are limited in, you know, processing and limited in RAM.
408
00:30:21.570 --> 00:30:22.070
So,
409
00:30:22.530 --> 00:30:27.985
I always suggest that you don't run try to run everything that's on there. You you should have a dedicated lightning network,
410
00:30:28.685 --> 00:30:46.054
node that runs, you know, maybe at my note or whatever other offering there is that offers lightning network just to run that and run that. And you wanna run, you know, dodo, run it dedicated. Don't run everything together because you're gonna you're gonna have instability issues in the end. And these are problems that you see on other products where, you know,
411
00:30:46.434 --> 00:31:08.455
the the the systems, you know, runs out of RAM. It you know, people have to reboot ever so often. So, you know, it's it's it's not a problem to run all these different devices. They're small enough. They don't make sounds. You know, they're you can you can stack them up and then keep them in a closet somewhere and just, you know, keep them dedicated. Don't don't try to run everything because, you know, it's not it's gonna run into issues. That's my that's my suggestion.
412
00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:14.300
413
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.020
I believe that self hosting
414
00:31:17.320 --> 00:31:18.360
services like,
415
00:31:19.385 --> 00:31:22.365
files or mails or chat or anything else,
416
00:31:23.385 --> 00:31:30.200
shouldn't be mixed with your money. Like, would you use your bank to store anything else that your money?
417
00:31:30.820 --> 00:31:37.640
Probably not. So do the same with your Bitcoin. Have one device only for your Bitcoin and another device for everything else.
418
00:31:41.205 --> 00:31:51.159
419
00:31:51.620 --> 00:32:03.144
I I wouldn't run an online store on my main my note device. Right? I I would sort of, you know, probably go get a you know, run a server somewhere or rent a VPS or something.
420
00:32:03.445 --> 00:32:05.980
So I think it depends on the type of application, and
421
00:32:06.380 --> 00:32:07.679
I agree that, you
422
00:32:08.059 --> 00:32:12.799
know, run what you care about. Don't immediately go flip on every on switch, as cool as it might seem,
423
00:32:13.179 --> 00:32:19.035
because you're just gonna end up having it go slow and run into trouble, and especially when it comes to publicly accessible services.
424
00:32:20.135 --> 00:32:23.995
Now if it's based on your lightning node, I think that's probably okay.
425
00:32:24.330 --> 00:32:30.750
But, I I wouldn't wanna start running other servers on my device that, you know, is also my my Bitcoin node because,
426
00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:39.105
I think you're just opening up the door for potential security vulnerabilities and keeping it limited to to just the apps that you use is probably a good idea.
427
00:32:40.205 --> 00:32:50.130
428
00:32:53.135 --> 00:32:57.395
429
00:32:58.095 --> 00:33:00.115
violators of this of this
430
00:33:02.049 --> 00:33:06.309
principle of not sort of mixing your money with your data with your passwords. So
431
00:33:06.610 --> 00:33:07.350
in principle,
432
00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:09.029
we agree.
433
00:33:09.409 --> 00:33:11.455
I think it is better to,
434
00:33:11.835 --> 00:33:12.335
bifurcate
435
00:33:12.635 --> 00:33:16.815
your money, especially when it comes to lightning since the money is living
436
00:33:17.275 --> 00:33:18.095
on the node,
437
00:33:18.910 --> 00:33:24.290
from, you know, some more maybe benign things, maybe some less secure things that you might be self hosting.
438
00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:28.755
So just a little bit of an overview of where we're at currently.
439
00:33:29.774 --> 00:33:33.554
I believe we have 15 services on our marketplace.
440
00:33:34.510 --> 00:33:38.450
About half of them are not in any way, shape, or form related to Bitcoin.
441
00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:44.525
I'm running all 15 of them. Now this includes Bitcoin Core and includes Bitcoin Proxy,
442
00:33:44.985 --> 00:33:56.230
which is a wrapper for Bitcoin Core that we wrote that sort of supercharges a pruned node, which is how we're able to run all of the various lightning services that we offer against a pruned node.
443
00:33:57.815 --> 00:33:58.315
So,
444
00:33:58.615 --> 00:34:01.674
Lightning, Bitcoin, somewhat hungry applications.
445
00:34:01.975 --> 00:34:06.154
We just launched Matrix, which can also be quite hungry. Mastodon can be quite hungry.
446
00:34:06.620 --> 00:34:09.360
I am running all of those as are most of our
447
00:34:09.660 --> 00:34:10.160
customers,
448
00:34:10.940 --> 00:34:14.400
in parallel at the same time on a 4 gigabyte
449
00:34:15.154 --> 00:34:16.295
high with a
450
00:34:16.835 --> 00:34:20.134
128 gigabyte micro SD card as the primary
451
00:34:20.515 --> 00:34:26.200
storage, which was a mistake, and we are now fixing that in those 3 o where we have external drives.
452
00:34:27.140 --> 00:34:29.880
And we're operating at about 50% capacity
453
00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:44.420
over Tor always. Right? There is no port forwarding. There is no static IP required. Absolutely everything on the embassy right out of the box works over Tor v 3. You can also connect to your embassy and all your services over,
454
00:34:44.819 --> 00:34:50.200
LAN, over dot local with SSL enabled because your embassy spins up its own root certificate
455
00:34:50.505 --> 00:34:51.005
authority.
456
00:34:52.585 --> 00:35:00.530
And so all of this is you know, I I mentioned that to to speaks to, your point about not insecurely accessing your embassy.
457
00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:09.045
But, basically, today, in short, with 15 services running in parallel on a 5 forward, a 128 gigabyte micro SD, it is smooth as butter.
458
00:35:09.665 --> 00:35:12.805
We know that that is not going to scale, and we acknowledge
459
00:35:13.505 --> 00:35:14.244
the potential,
460
00:35:15.299 --> 00:35:16.440
sort of security
461
00:35:16.740 --> 00:35:23.960
vulnerability that could come about from, you know, poor management of keeping your money and your passwords on the same device. But,
462
00:35:24.305 --> 00:35:25.525
our solution to that,
463
00:35:26.305 --> 00:35:30.565
is to run multiple. Right? We encourage our customers to get another embassy,
464
00:35:31.025 --> 00:35:36.460
or to get one of the other implementations that are on the show, which we promote, by the way, all the time,
465
00:35:37.080 --> 00:35:43.955
and say that they're not mutually exclusive. It's perfectly fine for you to get a a note or a minor or a Rhapsody blitz
466
00:35:44.335 --> 00:35:51.410
and or a number, I hate to say on this show right now. But we do recommend these things and then say, hey. Use your Embassy for
467
00:35:51.790 --> 00:35:52.830
for other stuff.
468
00:35:53.150 --> 00:35:55.650
And lastly, I'll just add one more thing, which is that
469
00:35:56.315 --> 00:35:57.375
Embassy's modular
470
00:35:57.675 --> 00:35:58.175
architecture
471
00:35:59.035 --> 00:36:01.215
allows you to, for instance, run,
472
00:36:01.835 --> 00:36:05.890
an LND note or a c lightning node on your Embassy
473
00:36:06.270 --> 00:36:10.450
that's actually pointing to a full Bitcoin node running on your nodal.
474
00:36:11.625 --> 00:36:17.005
So you they don't need to be on the same box. Right? You can go into the settings of your LMD
475
00:36:17.545 --> 00:36:22.390
and tell it to point to a Bitcoin node that's running on the LAN of your home.
476
00:36:22.770 --> 00:36:26.870
And so you could you could actually bifurcate Bitcoin and LMD if you want.
477
00:36:32.775 --> 00:36:37.435
478
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.980
the main additional burden or cost, besides, you know, the actual,
479
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:43.260
device,
480
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:47.260
which will run you you know, the hardware will run you about 200 to $300,
481
00:36:48.505 --> 00:36:55.244
is is really bandwidth. Right? Because if if you're actually running multiple nodes and you're not having them point at each other,
482
00:36:56.410 --> 00:37:01.950
you're basically just doubling up your bandwidth cost or tripling up your bandwidth cost. I would add that
483
00:37:04.825 --> 00:37:10.525
while you get additional benefits from running, you know, multiple implementations in terms of minimizing trust
484
00:37:11.040 --> 00:37:12.980
or or using different implementations
485
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:14.099
based on
486
00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:16.420
the trade off balances you seek,
487
00:37:17.359 --> 00:37:20.420
you know, there's an argument to be made to even running,
488
00:37:20.865 --> 00:37:24.405
you know, 2 start nines. Right? If, you know, 1 is for
489
00:37:24.785 --> 00:37:29.445
non Bitcoin data and one is for Bitcoin data. So I I don't I don't know necessarily,
490
00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:34.020
or, like, 2 Raspberry blitzes. Right? 1 for lightning and one for join market.
491
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.100
I I I don't
492
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.525
I I don't think it's mutually exclusive that they'd have to necessarily
493
00:37:40.905 --> 00:37:43.965
be different implementations even if you're running multiple nodes.
494
00:37:45.225 --> 00:37:50.019
495
00:37:54.485 --> 00:37:59.545
496
00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:04.880
You know, I've had a lot of hot dinners, so we'll see about that.
497
00:38:06.060 --> 00:38:11.964
So does anyone else have any more comments on trade offs before we move on to the next layer of this discussion?
498
00:38:13.944 --> 00:38:15.244
499
00:38:16.105 --> 00:38:18.045
500
00:38:19.050 --> 00:38:19.530
So,
501
00:38:19.930 --> 00:38:22.750
the next topic that we wanna hit here is,
502
00:38:23.290 --> 00:38:24.510
licenses specifically
503
00:38:24.810 --> 00:38:26.910
in terms of open source licenses
504
00:38:27.755 --> 00:38:29.375
versus source viewable licenses
505
00:38:31.275 --> 00:38:32.815
versus closed source licenses.
506
00:38:34.395 --> 00:38:36.015
507
00:38:38.080 --> 00:38:39.300
508
00:38:40.080 --> 00:38:46.545
Zelco is, itching for this discussion to start. So, Zelco, why don't you start us off, and then we'll take it from there?
509
00:38:47.585 --> 00:38:48.085
510
00:38:49.025 --> 00:38:50.645
I'll give, like, a an overlay.
511
00:38:51.105 --> 00:38:54.244
I think it's important to for us, for the community,
512
00:38:54.785 --> 00:38:55.285
and,
513
00:38:56.850 --> 00:39:04.550
just I mean, obviously, like, for nodes, but, I mean, all software, especially when we're talking about Bitcoin. Like, what was Bitcoin about? What's the ethos about?
514
00:39:05.665 --> 00:39:07.765
That free open source software
515
00:39:08.305 --> 00:39:08.805
is
516
00:39:09.265 --> 00:39:11.605
where all this came from. Right? The cypherpunk movement.
517
00:39:13.585 --> 00:39:14.405
If that
518
00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:17.560
isn't what we're going for and that isn't what's happening,
519
00:39:18.100 --> 00:39:22.200
right, things don't get better. I mean, we had a great great discussion today
520
00:39:23.464 --> 00:39:29.005
from, from Ruth Zoll and some of the guys from his team literally contributing to Umbro
521
00:39:29.545 --> 00:39:33.580
despite or, like, trying to contribute, trying to help fix a security
522
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:34.460
flaw.
523
00:39:36.200 --> 00:39:41.260
And that doesn't that that's, like, a a unique thing, right, to the false community.
524
00:39:41.664 --> 00:39:46.565
Right? I mean, you don't see contributors outside from Google trying to, like, contribute to Google
525
00:39:47.345 --> 00:39:50.644
and get their patches put in. Like, that's not something that happens.
526
00:39:51.025 --> 00:39:54.710
But on the reverse end, when we're talking about free open source software,
527
00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:55.590
you know,
528
00:39:55.970 --> 00:39:58.850
I can contribute to my node, or I could contribute to,
529
00:39:59.490 --> 00:39:59.650
to,
530
00:40:00.825 --> 00:40:01.325
RaspiBlitz
531
00:40:01.705 --> 00:40:05.805
or anybody can come and contribute. Like I said, I've had OpenNoms come and help.
532
00:40:06.425 --> 00:40:08.605
Evan tried to help, and I denied him.
533
00:40:09.545 --> 00:40:10.045
But,
534
00:40:10.730 --> 00:40:16.190
yeah, I, I also already told Open Arms that I'm going to, deny his, joint market,
535
00:40:17.665 --> 00:40:18.705
his joint market,
536
00:40:19.105 --> 00:40:20.485
PR, but, you know,
537
00:40:21.025 --> 00:40:27.800
the end of the day Yeah. It's still a guy who have to collect. Yeah. You're not getting it in. I'm letting you know. It's it's already denied.
538
00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:40.964
But but, yeah, like, that I mean, I I think we skate around this idea of open source. Oh, that just means that the source is open and viewable. Like, that's not that's not what open source means.
539
00:40:42.319 --> 00:40:45.539
So I'm what I'm kinda curious about, right, is,
540
00:40:47.359 --> 00:40:53.895
what, like, what license or how does everyone in this in this group right now? What do you view as,
541
00:40:55.155 --> 00:40:55.975
open source?
542
00:40:56.355 --> 00:40:57.095
And then
543
00:40:57.475 --> 00:40:58.775
what do you view as
544
00:40:59.369 --> 00:41:04.029
not open source? Or, you know, like, what what's your definitions? Because I think that,
545
00:41:04.569 --> 00:41:08.109
I think that that definition is clearly really important. I mean,
546
00:41:08.425 --> 00:41:13.945
I know Umbrel's not here. They had the opportunity to defend themselves. But one thing that irritates me with that is,
547
00:41:14.745 --> 00:41:16.685
is on their site, it says
548
00:41:17.225 --> 00:41:17.725
free,
549
00:41:18.700 --> 00:41:20.559
free and open source software.
550
00:41:21.339 --> 00:41:29.035
And they claim it like that because the software is doesn't cost anything, and their source is viewable. But they're not using a
551
00:41:29.575 --> 00:41:33.595
actual they're not even using a software license, but they're also not using
552
00:41:33.974 --> 00:41:35.914
anything that is remotely
553
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:37.059
false.
554
00:41:37.520 --> 00:41:39.940
So that that kind of misrepresentation
555
00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:42.660
is, is critical for me. But
556
00:41:44.735 --> 00:41:45.235
maybe,
557
00:41:45.935 --> 00:41:49.955
maybe, Rudzo, you wanna jump into what you what your take is on that?
558
00:41:50.415 --> 00:41:55.720
559
00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:57.000
they have.
560
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:01.320
561
00:42:03.225 --> 00:42:03.725
And
562
00:42:04.025 --> 00:42:06.045
what that basically does is
563
00:42:06.665 --> 00:42:09.325
it's open source, but it's a copy left.
564
00:42:09.785 --> 00:42:11.085
So the only
565
00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:12.460
aspect
566
00:42:13.560 --> 00:42:21.500
of of that is that it protects the open source nature of the code. So anybody can fork it and copy it, but they need to make sure that they still have that
567
00:42:23.465 --> 00:42:23.965
AGPL,
568
00:42:24.665 --> 00:42:25.165
license
569
00:42:25.705 --> 00:42:41.635
moving forward. So they can take the code, do whatever they want with it. They can sell. They can make, you know, they can sell the code. They could do whatever they want. But then it still needs to remain AGPL. They can't take it and then flip on to a copyright license and deny,
570
00:42:42.335 --> 00:42:43.555
people to view the code.
571
00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:52.000
572
00:42:52.700 --> 00:42:54.319
software on their page
573
00:42:54.619 --> 00:42:55.119
and
574
00:42:55.675 --> 00:43:27.359
wants to think that it's free. It's not free. Now it's it's, you know, open source when you're talking about free open source software, you're not talking about free as in price. You can have this pizza software for free. It means that you can have this pizza software, and you're able to modify it however you want. You can modify it to to to not have it control you, so you can control it. And you can modify it so you can give it to your neighbors, so you can pass it on to your friends and say, hey. Listen. I added, you know, I added Boost to this software. Here you go. Use it, buddy. Okay. It's all good. You don't have to worry about that. Projects shouldn't put free
575
00:43:27.740 --> 00:43:33.995
as open source software unless they mean real freedom. That's all I'm saying right now. I'm fucking pissed. Thank you.
576
00:43:36.955 --> 00:43:37.275
577
00:43:37.915 --> 00:43:50.170
Because I was asked about the, root zone here from Respirillitz. Because I was asked about the, what is open source, the basic from from the definition, there are kind of 3 basic freedoms that that are important that come from the open source definition
578
00:43:50.789 --> 00:43:52.170
that was kind of done
579
00:43:53.275 --> 00:43:54.015
years ago.
580
00:43:54.474 --> 00:44:15.015
First of all, it's it's it's the source code source code available, of course, that you can have the source code. It's it's open there for everybody to to see and verify. So that that's very, very important. It's not just some binary block or something or it's some source code is really when it's on GitHub, that's first good thing. But there's also the, the freedom of
581
00:44:15.395 --> 00:44:18.900
modifying the code. So you you should have the freedom
582
00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:21.859
to to take the code and and and really
583
00:44:22.160 --> 00:44:23.940
whatever you think it's it's appropriate
584
00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:26.444
is to to change on it. And,
585
00:44:26.845 --> 00:44:31.425
and very important with this com is is the combination of free re redistribution.
586
00:44:31.964 --> 00:44:32.464
So,
587
00:44:33.325 --> 00:44:38.020
for example, some projects just have the code on GitHub and they allow you to
588
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:46.865
to, download it to your computer and maybe modify it for yourself on your own computer. But it's very important. This is the freedom then of community
589
00:44:47.245 --> 00:44:51.105
is that you that everybody is free to redistribute these modifications
590
00:44:51.565 --> 00:44:54.670
to, to the public again and have this freedom.
591
00:44:55.050 --> 00:45:00.510
And those are the kind of 3 basic things: the open source, so the open code, the modification,
592
00:45:01.175 --> 00:45:02.555
and then the free redistribution
593
00:45:02.935 --> 00:45:28.650
of this modification. So base there's a lot of more little details there, but basically those those are the ones. The Respiblitz project decided to go with the MIT license, which is the open source license that also the Bitcoin Core Code, is using. It's a very, very permissive license. So, for example, compare it with the GPL kind of license, and it doesn't have this copy left. So it doesn't even if you do a modification, it even gives you the freedom
594
00:45:28.950 --> 00:45:31.130
not to do not to publish it again,
595
00:45:31.670 --> 00:45:48.280
under an, as open source. So there's, and then you can even change some things. So the M and T, M and T project could change, for example, you can just fork it and you could change it even to a GPL, for example. So it gives you a little bit more freedom. In the end, it says do what you want with the code,
596
00:45:48.820 --> 00:45:54.965
but it just puts a little paragraph in there that says, oh, use it as it is. We don't give any
597
00:45:55.505 --> 00:46:01.050
warranty about it because some most of the times there isn't even a company behind that that you could somebody do,
598
00:46:02.330 --> 00:46:08.670
make warranty claims or something. So it just gives you a little bit of legal protection there that you don't get, personally
599
00:46:08.970 --> 00:46:12.285
kind of, people don't legal don't go with a lawyer
600
00:46:12.984 --> 00:46:16.710
behind you or something. So that's, like, at least a good good legal shield there.
601
00:46:17.670 --> 00:46:21.530
And and one thing I want to add I want to add here because we're talking licenses,
602
00:46:22.070 --> 00:46:31.515
if you don't the good thing is with an MIT or real open source license, the ownership of code means that the community is owning the code. There is not a single entity
603
00:46:31.895 --> 00:46:42.910
that has more rights on the code. There so there is no no no single ownership. There is not a single person or a single company that has ownership on this code. This is very important when we talk about self sovereignty
604
00:46:43.335 --> 00:46:49.515
because self sovereignty really means you you have the freedom. You really own your shit. It's really your stuff.
605
00:46:49.895 --> 00:46:56.140
And and this is really something when you really want to why we are doing all this journey, run a node, be self sovereign,
606
00:46:56.520 --> 00:47:09.210
I think it's very important to consider maybe you just start your journey with something else, but every Node project that's out there is cool to start. Running a Node is is important. But if you really want to go down the road for the self sovereignty,
607
00:47:09.670 --> 00:47:10.810
the thing really,
608
00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:14.010
really looking out for real open source,
609
00:47:14.310 --> 00:47:16.170
code is very, very, very important.
610
00:47:16.785 --> 00:47:19.525
And just because this ownership of code is important,
611
00:47:20.065 --> 00:47:24.165
those projects that not have these three freedoms, it would be interesting to know
612
00:47:24.610 --> 00:47:30.790
what kind of company you are or what kind of project you are because if there's not if the code is not belonging to the community,
613
00:47:31.090 --> 00:47:38.395
there is some entity that has some ownership on this code and would be interesting in the in the, and because of transparency
614
00:47:38.855 --> 00:47:48.860
if people use those node projects to know who is behind that, who has still a little bit more control here on the software that are running for transparency reasons, and to understand
615
00:47:49.184 --> 00:47:51.845
what kind of product you are using. They would be also be interested,
616
00:47:52.224 --> 00:47:54.805
for you to hear from the to hear from the other projects.
617
00:47:55.505 --> 00:47:56.545
618
00:47:57.200 --> 00:48:00.740
Rutsal, there. I I just wanna jump in real quick before handing it off to Kito.
619
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:03.220
The the 2 main
620
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:06.420
considered, you know, free open source licenses
621
00:48:07.185 --> 00:48:10.405
are MIT and GPL, as, Russel mentioned.
622
00:48:11.265 --> 00:48:13.765
MIT is way more permissive. With MIT,
623
00:48:14.930 --> 00:48:17.910
you could even theoretically take the code and then
624
00:48:18.369 --> 00:48:20.950
fork it and put it into your closed source project.
625
00:48:21.785 --> 00:48:22.685
With GPL,
626
00:48:23.225 --> 00:48:24.445
the distinction is
627
00:48:24.825 --> 00:48:34.120
that you have to keep it GPL after the fact. You cannot take that GPL code and then and then put it into a closed source project without opening up, your code,
628
00:48:35.060 --> 00:48:37.400
just for the freaks, just to make that clear.
629
00:48:38.100 --> 00:48:38.600
630
00:48:39.224 --> 00:48:39.724
631
00:48:40.984 --> 00:48:41.625
632
00:48:42.265 --> 00:48:48.150
exactly what I I wanted to mention that issue about the GPO as well because we we basically started with the unlicensed,
633
00:48:48.930 --> 00:48:51.190
which I believe is the only Cypherpunk
634
00:48:51.490 --> 00:48:53.670
compatible license, which is basically,
635
00:48:54.050 --> 00:48:54.950
public domain.
636
00:48:56.215 --> 00:48:56.935
One thing,
637
00:48:57.655 --> 00:48:59.515
people are probably not aware of,
638
00:48:59.815 --> 00:49:01.275
I I spent some time
639
00:49:01.575 --> 00:49:07.869
reading the FSF website and, and the open source initiative website before before joining this call today.
640
00:49:08.329 --> 00:49:13.390
And, basically, if you don't have a license on your project, it's not free.
641
00:49:14.705 --> 00:49:19.445
You don't guarantee the 3 or 4, depending who you ask, freedoms to the users.
642
00:49:19.745 --> 00:49:20.725
So the unlicense
643
00:49:21.265 --> 00:49:22.805
was a very good way
644
00:49:23.105 --> 00:49:24.869
to say, fuck everyone.
645
00:49:25.569 --> 00:49:28.869
You just take our stuff and do whatever you want with it.
646
00:49:29.809 --> 00:49:31.625
Then we started talking with,
647
00:49:32.825 --> 00:49:38.445
potential investors and other people, and we wanted something a little more serious than the unlicensed.
648
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:47.860
So, basically, the choice was between the BSD 2 close, 3 close, or MIT licenses, and we ended up going with the MIT license.
649
00:49:48.945 --> 00:49:52.005
I have to admit it's heavily influenced by RaspiBlitz.
650
00:49:53.345 --> 00:50:00.840
I just looked around what the other did, who didn't go with GPL, and MIT looked like the the best option for us.
651
00:50:01.300 --> 00:50:03.960
So, yeah, currently, we we use the MIT license.
652
00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:05.700
But that being said,
653
00:50:07.025 --> 00:50:08.465
I don't totally share,
654
00:50:09.185 --> 00:50:13.685
and we had a a heated argument on Twitter in DMs with Zirko
655
00:50:14.145 --> 00:50:14.965
the other day,
656
00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:20.500
that FOSS is the only way to go. I think for what we are doing,
657
00:50:21.200 --> 00:50:25.275
if you can check what actual code is running on your device,
658
00:50:25.575 --> 00:50:26.075
it's
659
00:50:26.535 --> 00:50:29.835
good enough. It's not perfect, but it's good enough,
660
00:50:30.890 --> 00:50:36.110
especially since we are talking about a bunch of shell scripts and interpreted languages. There is no binaries.
661
00:50:37.215 --> 00:50:39.555
It's only some scripts which everybody
662
00:50:39.935 --> 00:50:40.095
with,
663
00:50:40.895 --> 00:50:44.515
6 months of, programming knowledge can read and understand,
664
00:50:46.210 --> 00:50:52.470
and verify what it's doing. So I I believe, of course, if you can go with FOSS,
665
00:50:54.174 --> 00:50:55.474
go for it. But,
666
00:50:56.415 --> 00:51:00.355
being able to read the actual code that runs on your device is
667
00:51:00.730 --> 00:51:01.950
probably good enough.
668
00:51:02.570 --> 00:51:03.310
And, also,
669
00:51:05.530 --> 00:51:08.350
having the source code on the GitHub repository
670
00:51:08.810 --> 00:51:12.815
doesn't guarantee at all that is the actual code running on your device.
671
00:51:15.035 --> 00:51:21.120
And the same applies to any Android or iPhone app. Publishing the the source code doesn't
672
00:51:21.580 --> 00:51:28.000
mean that the code that you actually will find on the Play Store, on the other App Store is the code that you've seen on the repository.
673
00:51:31.565 --> 00:51:38.600
674
00:51:39.460 --> 00:51:40.520
about the
675
00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:45.285
whether it needs to be source viewable or whatever for nodes that are just running a bunch of
676
00:51:45.765 --> 00:51:47.065
shell scripts. But,
677
00:51:48.885 --> 00:51:52.265
at the end of the day, right, we shouldn't be falsely advertising,
678
00:51:53.750 --> 00:51:55.530
what it is, right, that
679
00:51:55.830 --> 00:51:57.130
that our license
680
00:51:57.510 --> 00:51:59.690
is. So, like, I shouldn't be saying,
681
00:51:59.990 --> 00:52:09.235
like, if I'm if I'm using the same, license that Umbrella is, like, I'm not gonna go and say, oh, I'm free and open source and said, no. You're not free and open source. So
682
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:15.099
and the my only issue with it isn't necessarily what you're saying. My issue with
683
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:16.460
the whole idea
684
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:17.900
is 100%
685
00:52:18.359 --> 00:52:18.859
that,
686
00:52:19.974 --> 00:52:22.234
it changes the mindset of the community.
687
00:52:23.015 --> 00:52:30.540
And that's, I think, that's why AGPL has become more popular. Right? Because it's copy lefting. It's forcing people to remain open source,
688
00:52:31.240 --> 00:52:35.100
maybe not as permissive as MIT. But when you start to get
689
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:37.100
more and more people that
690
00:52:37.445 --> 00:52:47.120
close it down and shut it down, right, and it's becoming more and more accepted in the Bitcoin community, that's when it becomes a problem. So I think that,
691
00:52:48.140 --> 00:52:49.280
the false advertising,
692
00:52:49.740 --> 00:52:54.160
you know, not owning not owning up to what it is that your license is.
693
00:52:54.935 --> 00:53:01.595
Again, like, if that's someone's choice, like, that's someone's choice in, the market will decide whether people should be running it or not.
694
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.700
But at the end of the day, right, like,
695
00:53:05.160 --> 00:53:09.100
trying to falsely, like, claim that you're something that you're not is
696
00:53:09.560 --> 00:53:13.475
not ethical, not good to go. There's a lot of issues with
697
00:53:14.095 --> 00:53:19.875
doing pull request and everything else. I know we talked about in DMs, but, you know, a lot of that is
698
00:53:20.380 --> 00:53:23.760
unethical stuff that shouldn't be happening since it's already breaking the license.
699
00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:27.120
So, I mean, that's just part of of it, but,
700
00:53:27.565 --> 00:53:34.625
that's my take is that, you know, don't don't don't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I totally agree with that. I mean, don't call yourself
701
00:53:35.660 --> 00:53:39.920
702
00:53:40.300 --> 00:53:46.565
And just fucking go to the open source initiative website, see the list of licenses, and pick 1.
703
00:53:46.945 --> 00:53:48.005
It's that easy.
704
00:53:48.385 --> 00:53:48.885
705
00:53:49.505 --> 00:53:50.005
Okay.
706
00:53:51.585 --> 00:53:54.369
Taylor or Matt, who wants to go? I'll go.
707
00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:59.270
708
00:53:59.730 --> 00:54:16.829
Umbrel does that has bothered me a little bit. Their whole, like, become Bitcoin thing, I feel like they're just sort of like, it's probably good marketing on their end, but I feel like it's also just sort of disingenuous. Like, they're saying there is nobody else. Like, this is what you do to to, you know, be a Bitcoin user, but there's so much more variety than that and so many more
709
00:54:17.289 --> 00:54:17.789
options
710
00:54:18.089 --> 00:54:21.465
that I just have always felt like that's a little bit disingenuous. But,
711
00:54:22.025 --> 00:54:24.105
so go going back to the license I chose,
712
00:54:24.505 --> 00:54:24.905
it
713
00:54:25.305 --> 00:54:30.045
first of all, let me start off by saying the license I chose was a bad decision. I picked up one random morning because
714
00:54:30.510 --> 00:54:35.250
I needed something, and I was like, okay. I kinda wanna start a company around this. So
715
00:54:35.550 --> 00:54:39.245
what should I pick? And I I chose a license that,
716
00:54:39.725 --> 00:54:43.985
was the it's the Creative Commons ones, and it it didn't allow redistribution.
717
00:54:45.005 --> 00:54:51.500
And at the time, my interpretation of redistribution was what some other licenses call production use,
718
00:54:51.880 --> 00:55:00.535
and so I I don't know. I didn't think much about it. Somebody commented, like, way back at the beginning, like, hey. You shouldn't use this license, and I basically said, oh, yeah. Like, it's,
719
00:55:00.855 --> 00:55:05.089
it's this isn't my intent, but unfortunately, at the time, I didn't,
720
00:55:05.890 --> 00:55:09.349
I didn't change it. So I've since added some custom modifications,
721
00:55:10.175 --> 00:55:11.075
but, honestly
722
00:55:11.695 --> 00:55:16.595
so I'll probably come across maybe as the bad guy here, but I think there are reasons to use
723
00:55:17.055 --> 00:55:18.915
non fully open source licenses.
724
00:55:19.900 --> 00:55:24.880
I think some of it could be protection. I've we've seen some, like, examples in the past where,
725
00:55:25.180 --> 00:55:29.280
like, NDK with cold card, like, it gets forked, and, you know, the fork gets
726
00:55:29.725 --> 00:55:41.080
VC funding from what I've heard, and it's basically just a clone. And then none of that revenue goes back to the founders. The VC investments aren't going to the, like, creative individuals who launched that project
727
00:55:41.620 --> 00:55:46.280
initially. Right? And I think that is who should be benefiting the most. Like, I I don't want
728
00:55:46.744 --> 00:55:55.325
the VC funds or, you know, Google coming in or some huge tech company coming in, like, scooping up, like, open source code that Bitcoin has created,
729
00:55:55.650 --> 00:56:08.075
throwing only a marketing budget at it, and then starting to, like, trick Bitcoin users saying, like, just here's this one quick way to go run a Bitcoin note, but be malicious and, you know, run a BCash note or something instead. Right? I I think
730
00:56:09.335 --> 00:56:22.950
because we are much smaller than some of those large companies. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it's a concern. As Bitcoin starts growing, you're gonna see more and more, you know, projects that are fully open source get forked and potentially,
731
00:56:24.075 --> 00:56:30.015
large companies or entities throw marketing budgets at it and start tricking or confusing users to the point where
732
00:56:31.550 --> 00:56:33.010
people can be malicious.
733
00:56:33.310 --> 00:56:39.730
And I don't know the perfect way to protect from that, but I think it's a it's a risk going forward. I mean, we've seen it just with Bitcoin Forks. Like,
734
00:56:40.095 --> 00:56:40.974
Bitcoin Cash was
735
00:56:41.775 --> 00:56:46.194
I I feel like some of that is is problematic that people go and start saying
736
00:56:46.654 --> 00:56:50.580
dishonest things or they fork the code and say, well, we're really Bitcoin instead.
737
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:53.940
It causes confusion, especially among new users. I mean,
738
00:56:54.640 --> 00:56:59.525
experienced Bitcoin users understand what's going on. I think they get it. But, like, when you go to bitcoin.com
739
00:56:59.825 --> 00:57:02.165
and you click buy and you're not getting Bitcoin,
740
00:57:02.625 --> 00:57:03.445
that's a problem.
741
00:57:03.984 --> 00:57:09.770
And and I don't know if, like, open source licenses are the only way to, like or licensing is the only
742
00:57:10.230 --> 00:57:10.730
underneath,
743
00:57:11.670 --> 00:57:18.655
underlying cause there, but I think, it we could potentially sort of help out that way. And, again, going back to, like, the founders,
744
00:57:20.395 --> 00:57:21.215
I don't know.
745
00:57:21.650 --> 00:57:30.415
They're the creative people that are making the progress. They deserve the benefits and not other, you know, VC funds or large tech companies. So I I think there's,
746
00:57:30.975 --> 00:57:34.595
a huge opportunity for improvement in some, like, middle ground type licenses.
747
00:57:34.975 --> 00:57:41.380
The one that I've been looking at a lot and I really wanna switch to, I haven't done it yet, is the business source license. It basically says,
748
00:57:41.680 --> 00:57:44.980
like, it's it's open source after a point in time,
749
00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:46.260
and you can
750
00:57:47.225 --> 00:57:56.045
kind of it it's you're allowed to redistribute it. You're allowed to fork it. You're allowed to use it for personal use. The problem with the the Umbro license and the one that I had started with was,
751
00:57:56.770 --> 00:58:02.310
that it it it isn't a software license. Right? So it doesn't go into, like, what happens when you fork the project.
752
00:58:02.850 --> 00:58:18.130
Like, there is it just you're kinda not allowed to, but, like, also, you put it on GitHub. So, like, of course, you're expecting people to force fork the project and, like, submit pull requests and things like that. So I I think the business source license is is a good middle ground.
753
00:58:18.775 --> 00:58:19.674
I know some
754
00:58:20.135 --> 00:58:41.605
popular people within, like, the open source community have, you know, maybe they don't fully endorse it, but they do like it. And I think it it sort of helps provide that middle ground of being able to run a company around a project, which a lot of new users also, I think, enjoy and benefit from. They like knowing that there is a person that they're buying a a product from. They enter into, like, sort of a contract or a purchase
755
00:58:42.090 --> 00:58:45.310
with some entity knowing, look, there is,
756
00:58:46.410 --> 00:58:57.765
there's another person out there that can help support this. Like, I can go to a website and, you know, send an email and say, I've got a problem. I need some help. I think a lot of people are comfortable with that approach, and
757
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:05.300
I that's why I think sort of these middle ground licenses of, you know, it is it's open towards, but at the same time,
758
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:30.035
it it gives a company sort of a a heads up short term, like, advantage to be able to build on it and get that sustainability because if it's just open source, like, you always are sort of like, the founder can just kinda go away and, you know, not help out or not support you. So I don't know if other people wanna comment. Yeah. You you you you could also go with a dual license like most commercial open source project do.
759
00:59:33.300 --> 00:59:38.040
760
00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:41.240
next, which is monetization. But before we continue,
761
00:59:42.185 --> 00:59:48.205
we have Matt Hill here from Start 9. I mean, Start 9 and Minode have, the most restrictive licenses
762
00:59:48.825 --> 00:59:51.245
of the projects that are here with us today.
763
00:59:51.690 --> 01:00:00.109
I mean, Umbrel keeps getting brought up. I would say that Umbrel probably has the most disingenuous marketing around it. I don't think Start 9 or Minode
764
01:00:02.315 --> 01:00:05.135
really pretend to be, free open source projects.
765
01:00:05.755 --> 01:00:09.695
But I'm curious on Matt's opinion here before we move on from this discussion.
766
01:00:10.900 --> 01:00:11.720
767
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:16.600
So licensing for us, was not approached trivially.
768
01:00:17.300 --> 01:00:21.145
It was a serious topic of discussion in the early days of the company.
769
01:00:21.765 --> 01:00:24.905
We browsed many licenses. We had long discussions
770
01:00:25.609 --> 01:00:27.450
and ultimately wrote our own,
771
01:00:27.849 --> 01:00:31.470
license that borrowed from a few of the ones that were out there.
772
01:00:32.730 --> 01:00:33.710
We view licensing
773
01:00:34.375 --> 01:00:36.474
as a means to an end,
774
01:00:37.015 --> 01:00:38.714
not as an end in itself.
775
01:00:40.214 --> 01:00:40.954
Our goal
776
01:00:41.700 --> 01:00:44.680
is to create a new computing paradigm
777
01:00:45.540 --> 01:00:47.880
that will rival and eventually destroy
778
01:00:48.339 --> 01:00:49.160
the centralized,
779
01:00:49.460 --> 01:00:52.395
trusted, hosted model of the Internet today.
780
01:00:53.495 --> 01:00:54.555
That is our goal.
781
01:00:54.855 --> 01:00:57.915
And so we view licensing as one tool in the toolbox
782
01:00:58.615 --> 01:00:59.115
to,
783
01:00:59.815 --> 01:01:00.955
reach that goal.
784
01:01:02.329 --> 01:01:07.710
And at the time, we looked at what the various trade offs were for different licensing approaches
785
01:01:08.605 --> 01:01:10.065
and determined that
786
01:01:10.765 --> 01:01:11.825
the benefits
787
01:01:12.285 --> 01:01:18.460
of a fully FOS license and so first of all, before I continue, let me say that honesty here is critical,
788
01:01:19.240 --> 01:01:22.940
that we have in never way and will in never way misrepresent
789
01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:24.220
our product,
790
01:01:25.080 --> 01:01:25.820
our license,
791
01:01:26.315 --> 01:01:28.095
or our goals to our users,
792
01:01:28.474 --> 01:01:29.295
to our investors,
793
01:01:30.795 --> 01:01:31.935
or anybody else.
794
01:01:32.395 --> 01:01:32.895
So
795
01:01:34.520 --> 01:01:35.180
our goals,
796
01:01:35.640 --> 01:01:36.859
with our license
797
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:39.900
were to, I forget who it was earlier,
798
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:44.185
stated the the sort of 3 slash 4 freedoms of an open source,
799
01:01:44.745 --> 01:01:46.525
fully free and open source license.
800
01:01:47.065 --> 01:01:48.685
One is that the source is available.
801
01:01:49.625 --> 01:01:53.360
Obviously, we viewed this as critical. It was basically a nonstarter.
802
01:01:53.900 --> 01:01:57.520
In the 1st couple months, our source code was closed source,
803
01:01:57.820 --> 01:01:59.600
strictly for security reasons,
804
01:02:00.295 --> 01:02:16.050
and because nobody was using our software. So we wanted to make sure that it was good, and at least good enough. We know that the community can find bugs and that in the long run, having it open is actually more secure. But we started with a closed source, lice you know, no license. We're just closed.
805
01:02:16.575 --> 01:02:19.395
And then we opened it up once we had our licensing strategy,
806
01:02:20.975 --> 01:02:21.875
ironed out.
807
01:02:22.495 --> 01:02:25.395
We think that it's critical. However, I do want to mention
808
01:02:25.890 --> 01:02:29.029
that making the source code available
809
01:02:29.410 --> 01:02:31.349
for purposes of auditability
810
01:02:32.049 --> 01:02:34.470
was actually not the primary motivation
811
01:02:35.105 --> 01:02:36.145
for us open
812
01:02:36.945 --> 01:02:40.485
making our source code available. Yeah. I won't say open source.
813
01:02:40.865 --> 01:02:44.119
We need some definitions around these things so that we have a nuanced conversation
814
01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:48.840
and not argue semantics. But for we opened up our code base
815
01:02:49.380 --> 01:02:53.325
not primarily for the purpose so that people could audit it, Because realistically,
816
01:02:54.265 --> 01:03:07.230
you know, we probably could have gone after some of the most trusted people in the industry and said, hey. Come audit our code. People trust you. They know you'll never lie to them. Audit it, and then tell everyone that it's fine, and probably still build a big business. So we didn't necessarily
817
01:03:07.530 --> 01:03:08.030
view,
818
01:03:08.809 --> 01:03:13.975
the open source as a necessity to build great software and a big business,
819
01:03:15.155 --> 01:03:22.650
but we felt that it was better. So it's a nice benefit. The primary reason that we open sourced our code was to protect ourselves
820
01:03:23.270 --> 01:03:24.490
against coercion
821
01:03:25.030 --> 01:03:26.170
from potential
822
01:03:26.944 --> 01:03:38.870
antagonists. Right? So we did not want a 3 letter agency walking into our office and saying, great product you've got here. Build in a backdoor, and, oh, here's a gag order. By open sourcing the code, we were strategically
823
01:03:39.170 --> 01:03:41.830
protecting ourselves against that type of,
824
01:03:42.530 --> 01:03:43.030
attack.
825
01:03:43.545 --> 01:03:49.325
So that was the main reason. 2nd reason was for auditability and and because it's the right thing to do, and that's that.
826
01:03:50.105 --> 01:03:51.885
Now second one, modification.
827
01:03:53.490 --> 01:03:56.869
We you know, the primary purpose of having a
828
01:03:57.329 --> 01:03:59.349
license that enables modification
829
01:04:00.075 --> 01:04:02.255
is so that you can get community contributions.
830
01:04:03.435 --> 01:04:04.175
That is
831
01:04:04.475 --> 01:04:11.040
the the primary reason. Right? It's like you have limited capacity and you want help from others, so your license should allow others to help you.
832
01:04:11.420 --> 01:04:13.760
And our license does. Right? Our license,
833
01:04:14.460 --> 01:04:15.280
in short,
834
01:04:15.984 --> 01:04:24.244
grants grants the right to access, audit, copy, modify, compile, or distribute the source code or modifications to the source code.
835
01:04:24.619 --> 01:04:29.599
So we have created a license that allows people to fork our code,
836
01:04:30.380 --> 01:04:31.200
make it better,
837
01:04:31.885 --> 01:04:37.665
and open up a pull request and etcetera. And we have had multiple contributors from the open source community
838
01:04:37.965 --> 01:04:39.025
come in and
839
01:04:39.349 --> 01:04:39.849
contribute.
840
01:04:40.390 --> 01:04:42.089
So that has been valuable.
841
01:04:42.869 --> 01:04:44.410
The third one, distribution.
842
01:04:45.510 --> 01:04:51.095
This one gets a little bit of an asterisk, because it's what exactly are you distributing. Right? The purpose of
843
01:04:51.395 --> 01:04:53.415
allowing distribution in a license
844
01:04:53.954 --> 01:04:55.290
is that it acts as an
845
01:04:55.850 --> 01:04:57.390
as an insurance policy
846
01:04:57.850 --> 01:05:13.305
against the upstream project. So, for example, if you make modifications to this to the Embassy OS source code, and we're like, no. We're not merging that. We don't like that. But it's, like, super important and critical, and we've just gone evil.
847
01:05:13.765 --> 01:05:14.265
And
848
01:05:14.600 --> 01:05:19.820
your inability to distribute that code basically means that the project is dead or hijacked.
849
01:05:20.200 --> 01:05:25.925
And so the ability to distribute modifications of the code is an insurance policy against the original team
850
01:05:26.464 --> 01:05:27.445
that built it.
851
01:05:27.825 --> 01:05:31.365
If there's more to it, please let me know, but that's sort of how I see that.
852
01:05:32.540 --> 01:05:35.920
And so what we do is we found a interesting
853
01:05:36.220 --> 01:05:37.819
little middle ground there,
854
01:05:38.140 --> 01:05:41.095
to accomplish our goals, is that we allow the distribution,
855
01:05:41.395 --> 01:05:42.055
the redistribution
856
01:05:42.995 --> 01:05:50.430
of our source code. So you can fork our code, make modifications to it, and distribute it all your friends and family.
857
01:05:51.130 --> 01:05:52.590
The only thing that we prohibit
858
01:05:53.130 --> 01:05:54.030
is the distribution
859
01:05:54.570 --> 01:05:55.070
of
860
01:05:55.530 --> 01:05:56.350
the compiled
861
01:05:56.845 --> 01:06:05.665
code, of the object code, or of an another device running the modifications that you made, essentially preventing you from commercializing,
862
01:06:08.230 --> 01:06:08.890
our work.
863
01:06:09.510 --> 01:06:11.770
And that is the 4th thing, is the commercialization.
864
01:06:12.869 --> 01:06:13.849
And commercialization
865
01:06:15.115 --> 01:06:16.415
of open source software,
866
01:06:16.875 --> 01:06:24.815
I think, acts as an incentive for numbers 23. Right? It's like, if you give people the right to commercialize your code,
867
01:06:25.230 --> 01:06:26.450
then you are incentivizing
868
01:06:26.750 --> 01:06:32.289
them to contribute to your code and distribute your code. But
869
01:06:32.625 --> 01:06:34.085
if you don't need
870
01:06:34.625 --> 01:06:35.365
their contributions
871
01:06:35.825 --> 01:06:36.645
and you don't
872
01:06:37.025 --> 01:06:37.525
necessarily
873
01:06:37.825 --> 01:06:41.125
want their distributions because you're trying to build a business,
874
01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:42.180
then commercialization
875
01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:45.780
becomes the way that you, in a way, disincentivize
876
01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:47.060
those things.
877
01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:53.015
So that's a huge trade off. We were like, crap. Okay. If we prohibit people from commercializing
878
01:06:53.315 --> 01:06:54.055
our code,
879
01:06:54.755 --> 01:06:56.295
then we are going to
880
01:06:57.109 --> 01:06:57.609
definitely,
881
01:06:58.390 --> 01:07:00.890
prohibit or not prohibit, but disincentivize
882
01:07:01.190 --> 01:07:06.855
people from distributing our code because they can only distribute it as source code, which is not super valuable to grandma.
883
01:07:07.635 --> 01:07:08.375
And 2,
884
01:07:08.675 --> 01:07:09.975
we are partially,
885
01:07:10.355 --> 01:07:12.135
maybe, to some degree, disincentivizing
886
01:07:12.675 --> 01:07:13.175
modifications,
887
01:07:13.475 --> 01:07:13.975
because
888
01:07:14.390 --> 01:07:20.730
now the only reason someone would want to modify our code is to contribute to the upstream repo
889
01:07:21.109 --> 01:07:31.435
or to modify it for their own personal use. But they're definitely not gonna modify it so that they can make money off of it because we prohibited making money off of it. So we sort of said, okay.
890
01:07:32.230 --> 01:07:36.890
We get it. We're we're not gonna get as many community contributions as we otherwise would.
891
01:07:37.190 --> 01:07:38.730
However, we have
892
01:07:39.205 --> 01:07:39.945
an incredible
893
01:07:40.805 --> 01:07:43.625
large team of developers in house.
894
01:07:44.165 --> 01:07:50.240
And so we felt that at this point in our history, and this can change, by the way. Right? This is an evolving
895
01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:54.960
thing for us. But at this point in our history, we felt that we had
896
01:07:55.425 --> 01:07:55.925
the,
897
01:07:57.185 --> 01:07:59.605
skills and knowledge and muscle
898
01:07:59.985 --> 01:08:02.645
to build everything that we wanted to build,
899
01:08:02.950 --> 01:08:07.450
and that the diminishing returns of adding more community developers
900
01:08:07.830 --> 01:08:14.155
had basically already been reached. Right? Like, if 10 developers showed up today, and we're just like, how can we help?
901
01:08:14.455 --> 01:08:17.355
40 you know, full time, as much as you need, everything,
902
01:08:17.735 --> 01:08:25.270
I couldn't keep them busy because most of what we're building right now has to exist in just a couple of brains because it's
903
01:08:25.570 --> 01:08:27.270
still in the early architectural
904
01:08:27.570 --> 01:08:32.285
days. I don't we can't put that many open source developers to work.
905
01:08:32.665 --> 01:08:38.265
So we accepted the trade off, and we said, alright. In the early days, it's more important for us to protect,
906
01:08:39.380 --> 01:08:43.000
what we think is a awesome platform and a great business.
907
01:08:43.540 --> 01:08:58.030
And over time, if we start to go, oh my god, this thing's getting huge and it's becoming critical to to earth, right, cross your fingers, we can only hope, then, yes, we may reconsider our licensing and blow the top off and let anything go
908
01:08:58.330 --> 01:09:02.910
if the trade offs are there. So I just wanna make it clear to everybody that our decision
909
01:09:03.665 --> 01:09:09.685
to use a non FOST license was not taken lightly. It was taken extremely strategically,
910
01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:12.540
and is always open
911
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:13.740
to reconsideration
912
01:09:14.200 --> 01:09:24.845
depending on its the license's ability to contribute to our eventual goal of upending the bullshit centralized system that has come to dominate this planet. Thank you. That's all.
913
01:09:27.770 --> 01:09:28.270
914
01:09:28.809 --> 01:09:32.750
The the only thing I wanted to add is, I think one of the biggest
915
01:09:33.210 --> 01:09:34.510
differences between
916
01:09:35.425 --> 01:09:39.365
some of the projects that don't, like, start 9 or Umbrella's
917
01:09:39.905 --> 01:09:41.765
starting out a company with a
918
01:09:42.145 --> 01:09:42.965
clear intent
919
01:09:44.030 --> 01:09:49.650
of business. Right? I mean, like, obviously, it sounds like you guys are took your licensing very serious.
920
01:09:50.725 --> 01:09:52.505
And that a lot of that comes from
921
01:09:52.885 --> 01:09:53.785
people who,
922
01:09:54.965 --> 01:09:59.865
are trying to start a major business and a major future, and it sounds like you wanna protect it.
923
01:10:00.790 --> 01:10:01.290
My
924
01:10:01.830 --> 01:10:02.570
my counterargument
925
01:10:03.270 --> 01:10:08.650
to that and to some of what Taylor was saying about, you know, protecting your stuff and worrying about,
926
01:10:09.125 --> 01:10:12.585
you know, VC funding and whatever. Right? At the end of the day,
927
01:10:13.525 --> 01:10:14.824
all that is is competition.
928
01:10:15.445 --> 01:10:16.344
Right? It's
929
01:10:17.090 --> 01:10:20.470
it's, hey, someone took my code. They made
930
01:10:20.850 --> 01:10:31.605
it and did this other stuff. Some of it's better. Some of it's not. But it's it's competition. And no 2 people, no 2 companies or teams or whatever are going to have the same exact vision. So,
931
01:10:33.070 --> 01:10:33.869
you know, like,
932
01:10:34.510 --> 01:10:43.715
Evan always, like, makes a joke that or Open Arms makes a joke that he's going to fork Ronan and put join in box in there. And that right there is going to completely split the user base, or
933
01:10:44.175 --> 01:10:51.470
it's going to have very little people on his fork, and I'm gonna maintain all mine. Or maybe he had something, like, super cool and beneficial.
934
01:10:51.850 --> 01:10:56.990
And as long as it's open source, I can take it right back. So, like, to me, competition is
935
01:10:58.935 --> 01:11:02.795
it it comes from that false nature. And then the false nature also is what helps people
936
01:11:03.255 --> 01:11:06.395
come back and contribute and help each other and,
937
01:11:07.095 --> 01:11:07.595
make
938
01:11:07.940 --> 01:11:09.080
make things better.
939
01:11:10.100 --> 01:11:16.575
You know, and, obviously, it sounds like people are still doing that with starting on. I think that's probably because they see a good vision with your guys'
940
01:11:16.975 --> 01:11:20.435
business model and your company's whether you guys are moving forward,
941
01:11:20.815 --> 01:11:28.350
which I think there's something to say about the actual idea that you guys are putting forward of self hosting sovereign apps. I think that's pretty cool.
942
01:11:29.930 --> 01:11:35.845
But I think that when it comes down to it, right, like, I don't care so much if someone forks my code.
943
01:11:37.025 --> 01:11:39.685
Even if I was, you know, top dog and and
944
01:11:40.065 --> 01:11:41.205
running dojo is,
945
01:11:41.510 --> 01:11:50.595
you know, making 1,000,000 of dollars a year, if someone were to take the code, like, they're gonna that's only incentive for me to make it better. You know, it's I can cry about
946
01:11:51.135 --> 01:12:02.930
it, or I can say, alright. Cool. Like, you you forked it. Now you're selling it. That's cool. Alright. Well, what are you doing different? And no one's gonna know your code better than you. So they can try to fork it. They can try to do whatever they want.
947
01:12:03.630 --> 01:12:14.045
But, hey. Like, I'm gonna come back, and then I'm gonna find out what you're doing different. And if it's better, I'm gonna take it. And if it's not better, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna make something even better, cooler,
948
01:12:14.470 --> 01:12:18.730
faster, run better. I don't know. Whatever I'm gonna do is gonna be better because
949
01:12:19.110 --> 01:12:20.489
competition's in my nature.
950
01:12:20.790 --> 01:12:22.410
All I'm going to do is
951
01:12:22.965 --> 01:12:26.825
destroy you. So, like, if you are gonna fork the code, like, I'm going to end you.
952
01:12:28.645 --> 01:12:29.285
Yeah. That's,
953
01:12:30.120 --> 01:12:37.980
I mean, like, when I say end you, if you're gonna fork my code and try to compete against me, you know, like, if I was NVK, not not that we wanna use this, but it's a popular
954
01:12:38.925 --> 01:12:43.825
talking point. If I was NVK, I wouldn't have changed my license. I would have said,
955
01:12:44.525 --> 01:12:45.140
screw it.
956
01:12:45.620 --> 01:12:52.635
Let's let's battle. Like, let's fight. And then I would have made my shit so much better, and it would have been the end of that. You know?
957
01:12:53.114 --> 01:12:57.934
But that's just me. I'm not saying what he did. I mean, yeah, I am saying what it was a cop out. But,
958
01:12:58.875 --> 01:13:06.370
I think that I think that that's gotta be our mindset because that's what it is. You know? Like, we are most of us didn't start these node projects
959
01:13:06.989 --> 01:13:07.489
because
960
01:13:08.025 --> 01:13:09.325
we wanted to get rich.
961
01:13:10.345 --> 01:13:12.365
Most of us started with this, like,
962
01:13:12.825 --> 01:13:18.760
hey. I wanna give back to the community. I know that I know a 100% that's a fact for open arms and,
963
01:13:19.620 --> 01:13:27.605
and Ruzole for RAS by blitz. I know, Taylor, you started that way as well. I'm sure, Keto, you started that way over at Noble.
964
01:13:28.545 --> 01:13:38.595
And I think it's a new era of nodes that are gonna come in. I don't think start 9, you're gonna be the the last one. I don't think Umbrel's gonna be the last one. I think VCs are gonna see it as an
965
01:13:48.520 --> 01:13:51.659
And so, yeah, is that more work on the,
966
01:13:52.440 --> 01:14:01.775
the node the node software developers? Yeah. Absolutely. Like, that means that we're not going to get that funding because they don't want open source or at least in that open source nature.
967
01:14:03.035 --> 01:14:03.535
So,
968
01:14:03.995 --> 01:14:11.139
yeah, like, I I don't really care so much about VC funding because that's not why I did it. I did it to give back and give tools to the community.
969
01:14:12.445 --> 01:14:14.865
Is it sustainable? I mean, that's sustainability
970
01:14:15.245 --> 01:14:16.705
is completely up to
971
01:14:17.085 --> 01:14:25.090
to the developers. Right? Like, what business model are you going to run? What business model are you going to do that is going to be able to sustain yourself and your team
972
01:14:25.390 --> 01:14:26.290
while growing?
973
01:14:27.310 --> 01:14:30.770
And that is the trick, and that's how you guys end up doing it.
974
01:14:32.425 --> 01:14:36.045
But that's just my, like, final thoughts on all of it. Extremely
975
01:14:36.505 --> 01:14:40.525
976
01:14:42.430 --> 01:14:49.170
I I I just first of all, you know, NVK is a friend, and he's been on the pod many times. He's been on dispatch many times,
977
01:14:50.605 --> 01:14:54.705
and I've told him point blank on dispatch exactly what you just said.
978
01:14:55.645 --> 01:15:00.385
So so the the this is not something that is being, like, talked behind his back or whatnot,
979
01:15:01.550 --> 01:15:06.929
And I just wanna reiterate something that Zelko just said is is in this world of censorship resistance,
980
01:15:07.710 --> 01:15:09.250
specifically state resistance,
981
01:15:10.495 --> 01:15:10.995
You
982
01:15:11.375 --> 01:15:18.595
know, free open source software is extremely viral and censorship resistant because the code outlives any of the individual contributors.
983
01:15:19.630 --> 01:15:23.810
And I feel like it's a point that is is not really stated enough, and I just wanted to,
984
01:15:24.190 --> 01:15:29.804
make that clear to the freaks. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so bullish on Bitcoin as a project as a whole,
985
01:15:30.744 --> 01:15:31.965
because, you know,
986
01:15:32.505 --> 01:15:35.645
extremely grateful for all the contributors we have to to Bitcoin,
987
01:15:37.040 --> 01:15:40.500
but it's bigger than any of them individually, and the code continues on.
988
01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:46.575
989
01:15:46.955 --> 01:15:52.350
hit that point home. I mean, he used the running dojo team for whatever reason, but he said,
990
01:15:52.890 --> 01:16:07.545
yeah. If, like, the whole Roman Dojo team died, you know, tomorrow, right, someone could fork our project and it would live on. You know? And that, like, that goes right with your point. I think that's that's one of the most important things. You know? I mean, look at Bitcoin Core. Right?
991
01:16:08.200 --> 01:16:09.740
But yeah. Sorry. Go ahead, Matt.
992
01:16:11.160 --> 01:16:14.380
993
01:16:15.255 --> 01:16:16.935
994
01:16:17.335 --> 01:16:28.280
995
01:16:28.900 --> 01:16:30.785
Interesting thing. There's a sender in there.
996
01:16:31.585 --> 01:16:38.370
The sensor ring is kinda part. Okay. That should be just a bad joke. But, in the end, it's I don't wanna come across that
997
01:16:39.330 --> 01:16:39.810
that that,
998
01:16:40.930 --> 01:16:42.950
everything has to be free and there's
999
01:16:44.050 --> 01:16:58.300
no business to make or something. Maybe take a look. Open source is not young. And there was even this mentioning from from Umbral dev, like, oh, open source is 30 year old. We maybe need to do something different here to have sustainable projects.
1000
01:16:58.600 --> 01:16:59.960
But that's not really true.
1001
01:17:00.360 --> 01:17:07.385
We look at the examples that were named, like, like Redis switched to non open source or MongoDB or or MariaDB.
1002
01:17:07.925 --> 01:17:11.525
Redis is still in its in its core. It is still,
1003
01:17:11.925 --> 01:17:12.665
open source.
1004
01:17:13.270 --> 01:17:18.410
But they have a module that they put a little bit different license on, and this is kind of an extra service
1005
01:17:18.790 --> 01:17:26.855
they need for enterprise kind of things. So this is where then they maybe see their opportunity. So they do this on the side. Same thing is for MariaDB,
1006
01:17:27.315 --> 01:17:31.230
which are coming to business source license IDEA from. They still MariaDB,
1007
01:17:32.330 --> 01:17:40.815
the database is still open source. There's just some some extra programs on the side you need for enterprise use that they change the license a bit. So
1008
01:17:41.195 --> 01:17:50.860
those things can be discussed if you have a core product that's open source, and you maybe have something for special enterprises to use and you make make there a different license. It's discussable.
1009
01:17:51.720 --> 01:18:02.475
But but again, we're talking about full node projects here. And and we really have to to to think about when we bought especially about Bitcoin. And then, Bitcoin is so important to have this freedom to fork.
1010
01:18:03.095 --> 01:18:11.890
And and how you can make money again is is is, look at open source projects. For example, the MongoDB, it was was was an example that switched to,
1011
01:18:12.510 --> 01:18:13.730
to non open source
1012
01:18:14.065 --> 01:18:18.565
license to, to protect against being exploited by those big companies.
1013
01:18:18.865 --> 01:18:20.485
MongoDB made a $100,000,000
1014
01:18:22.145 --> 01:18:22.645
revenue
1015
01:18:23.220 --> 01:18:33.625
still being when they were open source, but they switched to non open source to make more money. So this was sustainable. It was just an idea from the CEO of this company,
1016
01:18:34.324 --> 01:18:43.770
to to make more money. And it's it's fair, but okay. Do it. But but again, it's not that that you have to have this idea. If I'm open source, I will starve.
1017
01:18:44.150 --> 01:18:49.290
You can build business models around your your your thing. Build for example, build a strong trademark.
1018
01:18:49.615 --> 01:18:50.975
This is, for example, what,
1019
01:18:52.015 --> 01:18:53.155
what Firefox
1020
01:18:53.695 --> 01:18:57.315
is for is is is Firefox is a trademark. This is owned
1021
01:18:57.719 --> 01:18:59.500
by, by by a foundation.
1022
01:19:00.280 --> 01:19:02.140
And what you can do is,
1023
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:21.179
is really do license deals still. So, for example, Umbrel was telling they don't wanna change to open source because they wanna do license deals. You can still make license deals if somebody wants to put on their project comes with Umbrel. This is a trademark. And to put this on your product, you can make a license deal while having the code completely open source.
1024
01:19:21.505 --> 01:19:24.165
Sure. Somebody can then take the code, call it something
1025
01:19:24.465 --> 01:19:37.755
else, and and and make money with this. This is a danger. But, again, especially a project that's so good at marketing like Umbrel, I don't personally get why they don't trust their marketing and to build up their brand while they give out their code for free,
1026
01:19:38.635 --> 01:19:43.534
and and we'll be open source and they spare them this complete mess that that that gets produced.
1027
01:19:43.835 --> 01:19:45.695
Because also something to remember,
1028
01:19:46.060 --> 01:20:01.560
if you have, if you're a small company, when a big company wants to use your code or copy your idea, they will do it in 2 weeks or something. They put their development department there and they will just see, oh, this works this way. Okay. We'll reprogram this again. And they will just outcompete you on that
1029
01:20:02.120 --> 01:20:03.420
way anyway. So
1030
01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:21.130
this idea of, oh, I have to protect my little code here I have against those big people that wanna exploit me. If they come for you, they first walk, they will out lawyer you. They will out develop you. That's not a problem. The thing what you do is really build up this good community brand, a good, really, real brand people,
1031
01:20:21.590 --> 01:20:30.554
put their trust in at least that's a that you have good good leadership on this open source project. And this is something then you can of course monetize in some ways still.
1032
01:20:31.015 --> 01:20:34.475
So I just wanna put those ideas out. It's not about open sources,
1033
01:20:34.840 --> 01:20:37.660
communism, and you cannot make money out of it or something.
1034
01:20:38.120 --> 01:20:38.620
Really,
1035
01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:42.700
see really where it's where it's reasonable. And if you do your own licenses,
1036
01:20:43.224 --> 01:20:45.885
really, here comes the point. You you
1037
01:20:46.264 --> 01:20:54.070
no. Don't roll your own license because in the end, when you really can't get into a conflict, the lawyers will earn more than the open source developers on this thing.
1038
01:20:54.530 --> 01:21:04.415
Because this is so costly if you get in those details. You have to pay big lawyers or whatever. If somebody comes for you on that, You will maybe have will not have the the the money to defend that.
1039
01:21:05.114 --> 01:21:11.020
So go with a standard license. It's really something to to to recommend. And especially if if you don't,
1040
01:21:11.640 --> 01:21:14.460
again, if you give up this this this ownership thinking,
1041
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:26.400
you spare a lot of problems because normally with the mister Piguet, if you now have contributors, you would need with everybody would normally need to sign some special agreement or something that this code is now gifted to the company.
1042
01:21:26.700 --> 01:21:30.640
And especially who is this company? Is this well defined? And all those problems.
1043
01:21:31.525 --> 01:21:35.705
Again, you will pay more on lawyers in the end than on open source developers.
1044
01:21:39.470 --> 01:21:42.610
1045
01:21:43.150 --> 01:21:43.550
But,
1046
01:21:44.190 --> 01:21:46.885
one thing yeah. I I fully agree that the
1047
01:21:47.364 --> 01:21:50.664
there is a history in the Bitcoin world, like, reinventing the wheel.
1048
01:21:51.844 --> 01:21:56.950
Don't invent your own license. It's like inventing your own cryptographic cipher. You probably
1049
01:21:57.650 --> 01:22:00.710
do a big mess and end up in a very bad situation.
1050
01:22:01.730 --> 01:22:09.345
And look at all the open source projects that monetize very well while having a GPO or BSD to close license.
1051
01:22:13.280 --> 01:22:15.699
1052
01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:22.264
it depends on the business models. And I I agree with a lot of what you just said, but I think depending on the type of company you are,
1053
01:22:22.565 --> 01:22:24.105
it may or may not work.
1054
01:22:24.965 --> 01:22:30.420
I think it's easier to have some of that work at a small scale. I think if you're a huge company, probably
1055
01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:32.179
not so much. I mean,
1056
01:22:32.880 --> 01:22:35.215
imagine if, like, in the early days,
1057
01:22:35.695 --> 01:22:55.074
people are gonna hate this example, but in the early days of Microsoft, like, I I don't think they would have grown if people just had access to all of their source code. I'm not saying that was necessarily the right or wrong wrong thing to do, but if you think about the economic impact of the people that were hired and the onboarding Matt did just for people running personal computers, there's a net benefit from it. And I think,
1058
01:22:56.094 --> 01:23:01.430
the fact that that company was able to grow and hire people and do the marketing and get people into,
1059
01:23:02.050 --> 01:23:02.550
like,
1060
01:23:03.010 --> 01:23:25.645
having the mindset of, it's okay for me to have, like, a computer in my house and it's not some, you know, crazy, nerdy thing that only a handful of people use. I think there's definitely been lots of benefits in in companies that existed that wouldn't have been able to exist as open source. I think, like but but on the flip side, if you look at Bitcoin, it has to be. Like, if you look at, you know, some of these other projects, they have to be. And that's why I
1061
01:23:26.025 --> 01:23:26.525
think
1062
01:23:26.905 --> 01:23:40.275
it's it's not a, you know, every software project must be FOS type world. I think, you know, there's definitely sort of a spectrum of types of projects that can use different licenses, and I think exploring a middle ground, it
1063
01:23:40.835 --> 01:23:42.455
could be a very valid thing.
1064
01:23:42.995 --> 01:23:58.045
And I think a lot of people would like to see more sort of middle ground type licenses where it's the the community is encouraged to, you know, fork the code, redistribute things, but there are some limitations on, like, a much larger company just taking it and benefiting it and, you know,
1065
01:23:58.745 --> 01:24:00.285
running with misleading marketing.
1066
01:24:00.665 --> 01:24:06.960
I think it would be okay to put some protections in, like, or update licenses to put in some protections for those type of situations.
1067
01:24:07.420 --> 01:24:09.520
Like, I guess the example that I I think about,
1068
01:24:09.900 --> 01:24:17.075
would be, like, if you went to a a world where everything was like, there there literally were no intellectual property rights.
1069
01:24:17.695 --> 01:24:22.275
Everything was sort of the FOSS model for all work that anyone had done. I don't think
1070
01:24:23.300 --> 01:24:32.040
economies would sort of survive that type of world if, like, everyone who invested in a design for a new airplane or car or
1071
01:24:32.795 --> 01:24:42.980
whatever. If it had to be open source and another manufacturer could just pick it up, the idea of only placing value on physical goods and not intellectual goods, I think, is sort of misleading.
1072
01:24:45.120 --> 01:24:54.635
1073
01:24:55.095 --> 01:24:58.869
That's why I price the fact of being source available
1074
01:24:59.170 --> 01:25:00.230
very much because
1075
01:25:00.929 --> 01:25:07.465
until the Microsoft era, everything came with the source code, and you would be you were able to audit it and modify
1076
01:25:18.890 --> 01:25:19.290
I mean
1077
01:25:20.570 --> 01:25:33.125
1078
01:25:33.505 --> 01:25:34.565
But I don't think
1079
01:25:35.989 --> 01:25:38.570
the industry would have progressed as fast
1080
01:25:38.949 --> 01:25:42.170
if companies like Microsoft or Apple hadn't existed.
1081
01:25:42.475 --> 01:25:52.460
And maybe you can argue that you think that's not good or good or whatever or it changed the perception of people's use of software and computers because it was a lot less open. But,
1082
01:25:53.000 --> 01:26:01.235
I I think there I don't know. I just feel like there have been net benefits in them, but not totally all good. I'm not saying all good or all bad. I'm saying there have been net benefits from,
1083
01:26:01.935 --> 01:26:03.235
some different business models.
1084
01:26:04.735 --> 01:26:12.710
And, yeah, like, one of the comments from ideas are like flames. The the this is what I I'm really sort of pretty much fundamentally against.
1085
01:26:13.490 --> 01:26:19.625
People will go say information wants to be free, And I fundamentally disagree with that. I think there are valid
1086
01:26:20.085 --> 01:26:28.400
arguments for intellectual property rights. And say, if you're like an architect and you design a house, the fact that you can't sell designs or you can't sell concepts
1087
01:26:28.940 --> 01:26:32.480
to other people to go implement or manufacture, I think, is just
1088
01:26:33.020 --> 01:26:33.600
a fundamentally,
1089
01:26:33.980 --> 01:26:35.120
like, wrong perspective.
1090
01:26:37.185 --> 01:26:39.364
1091
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:43.500
1092
01:26:44.480 --> 01:26:45.580
It's funny.
1093
01:26:46.280 --> 01:26:46.780
It's
1094
01:26:47.800 --> 01:26:51.020
funny you mentioned airplanes, actually, because I I
1095
01:26:51.465 --> 01:26:55.085
worked closely to Airbus in some time of my career. And,
1096
01:26:56.185 --> 01:27:03.580
as you might know, Airbus is selling airplanes to China, and the only way to sell to China is to give them all the plans to build things themselves.
1097
01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:10.140
And, actually, Chinese are totally unable to build even screws up to specs.
1098
01:27:10.665 --> 01:27:14.925
So the screws are shipped from Europe to China because we are not able to make them.
1099
01:27:15.705 --> 01:27:18.765
So I think really think there are other ways to monetize
1100
01:27:19.290 --> 01:27:19.870
than protect your
1101
01:27:20.250 --> 01:27:20.750
IP.
1102
01:27:23.370 --> 01:27:26.590
1103
01:27:29.115 --> 01:27:29.615
So
1104
01:27:30.395 --> 01:27:34.175
to reiterate something before and in light of the conversation that's happened since,
1105
01:27:35.755 --> 01:27:45.520
I think everyone here can probably agree that that licensing itself, right, this idea that if you have this license, you're sort of good and moral,
1106
01:27:46.115 --> 01:27:55.095
you're gonna win. And if you have that license, you're bad and evil, and you're not gonna win. I don't think that anyone would make that statement, that I think what we're arguing here is strategy. We're talking about
1107
01:27:55.570 --> 01:27:58.470
licensing as a strategy to achieve an end.
1108
01:27:58.930 --> 01:27:59.430
And
1109
01:27:59.890 --> 01:28:10.855
I think we all want the same ends here. There's a reason we're in Bitcoin. There's a reason we're building do it yourself self hosted software in Bitcoin notes. It's because we want to create this free world.
1110
01:28:12.114 --> 01:28:14.534
And so we are taking different strategies.
1111
01:28:14.920 --> 01:28:20.380
And I appreciate this discussion because, like I said, our internal conversation is ongoing,
1112
01:28:20.920 --> 01:28:23.180
and I can totally see a future
1113
01:28:23.625 --> 01:28:25.485
where a different licensing strategy,
1114
01:28:26.425 --> 01:28:28.605
becomes very important for us.
1115
01:28:29.625 --> 01:28:33.324
But when we decided on the license that we decided today, we took a look
1116
01:28:33.850 --> 01:28:37.710
at the actual landscape that we were dealing with, both internally
1117
01:28:38.090 --> 01:28:38.670
and externally.
1118
01:28:39.050 --> 01:28:44.155
We evaluated our strengths, our weaknesses. We evaluated the state of the marketplace,
1119
01:28:45.175 --> 01:28:48.395
and we decided that at this moment in time,
1120
01:28:49.200 --> 01:28:52.340
the protection against the, you know first of all,
1121
01:28:52.640 --> 01:28:53.860
makes wonderful points.
1122
01:28:54.240 --> 01:28:56.100
The protection against the big bad,
1123
01:28:56.425 --> 01:29:02.365
you know, companies that are great at marketing coming in and stealing all your stuff has largely been disproven by many projects.
1124
01:29:02.905 --> 01:29:06.250
It has also been proven by many projects that it can happen.
1125
01:29:07.210 --> 01:29:09.070
First, you know, I can point to,
1126
01:29:10.330 --> 01:29:13.070
everyone will acknowledge that there are many
1127
01:29:13.690 --> 01:29:14.830
false projects
1128
01:29:15.405 --> 01:29:17.185
out there that are scams,
1129
01:29:17.725 --> 01:29:22.225
that are shit, or that go completely, you know, underdeveloped
1130
01:29:22.925 --> 01:29:24.545
and just sort of die of obscurity.
1131
01:29:25.210 --> 01:29:28.510
There are also many closed source totally proprietary
1132
01:29:28.889 --> 01:29:34.750
pieces of technology that have been built over the years that have advanced humanity, that have been a net positive for everybody.
1133
01:29:35.435 --> 01:29:35.935
And
1134
01:29:36.235 --> 01:29:41.615
so that alone, the statement alone that the good or evil aspect of this conversation
1135
01:29:41.995 --> 01:29:42.655
is not
1136
01:29:43.300 --> 01:29:48.760
contained to which license you choose. It's about what you build, who you build it for, how you build it.
1137
01:29:49.860 --> 01:29:50.760
And that licensing
1138
01:29:51.895 --> 01:29:52.715
is a strategy
1139
01:29:53.175 --> 01:29:55.514
towards that. And I am you know,
1140
01:29:55.815 --> 01:29:57.915
I and the rest of the start 9 team,
1141
01:29:58.855 --> 01:30:05.900
are you know, we lean very far towards the, you know, software should be totally free
1142
01:30:06.280 --> 01:30:06.780
side.
1143
01:30:07.320 --> 01:30:10.060
But at this moment in time, to achieve our ends,
1144
01:30:10.395 --> 01:30:12.335
we feel that it is more important
1145
01:30:12.795 --> 01:30:14.094
to protect ourselves,
1146
01:30:15.355 --> 01:30:16.494
in certain ways
1147
01:30:16.795 --> 01:30:17.775
than to
1148
01:30:18.139 --> 01:30:19.360
garner the benefits
1149
01:30:19.739 --> 01:30:23.440
that would come along with blowing the roof off of our licensing.
1150
01:30:24.139 --> 01:30:24.540
And,
1151
01:30:25.020 --> 01:30:32.235
that could change. Right? So one point that you made, Rizal, was that if they're coming after you, like, if they identify that what you've done is valuable,
1152
01:30:32.935 --> 01:30:34.795
then they'll just come in and do it.
1153
01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:43.260
I don't know if that applies here. I I agree that in general, that could be a a that is usually a true statement,
1154
01:30:43.905 --> 01:30:49.845
But something unique is happening here. Right? So first of all, what we're doing is extremely complex.
1155
01:30:51.170 --> 01:30:54.710
I I don't mean to over speak this, but, like,
1156
01:30:55.090 --> 01:30:57.670
we are doing things that have never been done before.
1157
01:30:58.289 --> 01:31:04.625
Embassy OS is is not a shell script that installs things, and that statement is in no way meant to diminish anything else.
1158
01:31:05.085 --> 01:31:06.945
But it is extremely complex,
1159
01:31:07.405 --> 01:31:12.730
for and it is full stack. Right? It's all the way down to hardware and all the way up to application development.
1160
01:31:13.590 --> 01:31:14.730
And I would challenge,
1161
01:31:15.270 --> 01:31:21.125
some of those companies to catch up with us. I I very much would, and I think that they would have a very hard time of it.
1162
01:31:21.505 --> 01:31:23.844
And so I'm less concerned about
1163
01:31:24.340 --> 01:31:25.800
them stealing our tech
1164
01:31:26.180 --> 01:31:29.240
than I am about them using their marketing power
1165
01:31:29.620 --> 01:31:31.080
to steal our
1166
01:31:31.545 --> 01:31:40.870
code that's already built, as in we are terrible marketers. Okay? We're not humble. We do not have a good website. We do not have a super sexy, approachable,
1167
01:31:41.170 --> 01:31:42.390
modern UI.
1168
01:31:42.850 --> 01:31:44.950
Our stuff is dark. It is simple,
1169
01:31:45.330 --> 01:31:53.925
and it, you know, it works, but we're not good at marketing. We acknowledge that. So we felt that it was more important to protect ourselves on the marketing front than the tech front currently.
1170
01:31:56.145 --> 01:31:56.645
And,
1171
01:31:57.265 --> 01:31:59.125
you know, that could change.
1172
01:31:59.640 --> 01:32:01.660
Hopefully, that that will change someday,
1173
01:32:02.360 --> 01:32:05.020
and that the licensing strategy will adapt accordingly.
1174
01:32:07.055 --> 01:32:08.895
1175
01:32:09.535 --> 01:32:17.400
I mean, that's that's that that is great? And you you continue to mention that, you know, it it can change, and I hope it will change. So, basically,
1176
01:32:17.780 --> 01:32:21.400
I I've I've been knowing a lot of people been approaching
1177
01:32:21.885 --> 01:32:25.345
software development like this. So when it's ready, we will open source it.
1178
01:32:25.805 --> 01:32:26.305
And,
1179
01:32:26.685 --> 01:32:29.425
yeah, I understand that you have not not having
1180
01:32:31.670 --> 01:32:35.449
the confidence to make it to to focus on marketing for now.
1181
01:32:35.750 --> 01:32:37.289
And that is I mean,
1182
01:32:37.590 --> 01:32:38.809
yeah, I might I might
1183
01:32:39.565 --> 01:32:40.065
misinterpreting
1184
01:32:40.445 --> 01:32:41.245
your words, but,
1185
01:32:41.965 --> 01:32:45.585
the the point is not that. But what I'm trying trying to
1186
01:32:46.579 --> 01:32:50.360
say, and that's partially replying to Taylor as well, that
1187
01:32:51.780 --> 01:32:54.039
there is no it's practically impossible
1188
01:32:54.824 --> 01:32:55.965
to enforce ownership
1189
01:32:56.344 --> 01:32:56.844
on
1190
01:32:57.625 --> 01:32:59.804
code which is published.
1191
01:33:00.425 --> 01:33:01.485
And we know
1192
01:33:01.910 --> 01:33:04.010
that for this use case,
1193
01:33:04.310 --> 01:33:07.130
for Bitcoin, for people exercising their sovereignty,
1194
01:33:08.150 --> 01:33:09.370
it must be published.
1195
01:33:09.945 --> 01:33:11.885
So there is absolutely no point
1196
01:33:12.745 --> 01:33:13.245
putting
1197
01:33:14.105 --> 01:33:17.725
a license on it just for the show because it's despite
1198
01:33:18.250 --> 01:33:19.789
over, in in
1199
01:33:20.889 --> 01:33:23.630
very different from, like, an architect making
1200
01:33:25.845 --> 01:33:26.585
a plan
1201
01:33:26.885 --> 01:33:29.785
or like an artist, you know, unveiling their art.
1202
01:33:30.645 --> 01:33:34.105
It is a unique thing, and that is
1203
01:33:34.700 --> 01:33:38.400
that is the point of it, that it is unique and shouldn't be shown unless
1204
01:33:38.780 --> 01:33:41.360
someone is, you know, paying for it and that is,
1205
01:33:42.175 --> 01:33:48.515
will be hanging on the wall or, you know, will be building up up their house. But this is, you know, code is freely reproducible
1206
01:33:49.220 --> 01:33:53.160
and it just live lives by itself. You create it, and it does
1207
01:33:53.620 --> 01:33:59.145
its job. And for this reason and this is not Photoshop. This is not, you know,
1208
01:33:59.765 --> 01:34:04.665
a a a video editor where you can do unique effects and and there is this kind of creative
1209
01:34:04.965 --> 01:34:15.480
thing in it. It's a tool which needs to be working best. And for it to work, you need to be able to verify down to the letter, and, also, you need to be able to modify and distribute it
1210
01:34:15.804 --> 01:34:17.425
because that's the nature of
1211
01:34:17.725 --> 01:34:18.225
how,
1212
01:34:18.605 --> 01:34:23.985
you know, Bitcoin does work, and that's the reassurance of the of the whole network down to the base.
1213
01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:27.760
1214
01:34:28.160 --> 01:34:29.220
So, you know, Bitcoin
1215
01:34:29.600 --> 01:34:33.895
using Bitcoin as an example of FOSS and how it works, is is a bit
1216
01:34:34.295 --> 01:34:36.555
disingenuous, I think, because Bitcoin has
1217
01:34:37.015 --> 01:34:38.795
a totally unique, heretofore
1218
01:34:39.095 --> 01:34:39.595
unseen
1219
01:34:40.135 --> 01:34:41.030
means of
1220
01:34:41.349 --> 01:34:41.849
compensating
1221
01:34:42.150 --> 01:34:42.949
those who,
1222
01:34:43.429 --> 01:34:47.849
engage with it and participate in it. Right? It has a in it has a currency built in.
1223
01:34:48.150 --> 01:34:49.449
And so, you know,
1224
01:34:50.325 --> 01:34:58.730
contributing to Bitcoin is adding value to Bitcoin. And if you hold Bitcoin, then you're adding value to yourself. So it has this sort of built in incentive system
1225
01:34:59.030 --> 01:35:02.090
that many projects have tried to replicate.
1226
01:35:03.670 --> 01:35:12.855
I shouldn't say that. They haven't actually tried to replicate that. They've they've used that same mechanism to enrich themselves at the expense of those who don't understand what they're doing.
1227
01:35:14.250 --> 01:35:23.745
And so we don't wanna do that. Right? Like, so we we we can't be Bitcoin. Right? We could be VOS, but we can't be Bitcoin. We will never get the kind of engagement,
1228
01:35:24.525 --> 01:35:28.785
and growth that Bitcoin got because we don't have this built in, economic incentive.
1229
01:35:30.180 --> 01:35:31.720
You know, one way that
1230
01:35:32.500 --> 01:35:33.000
most,
1231
01:35:33.460 --> 01:35:35.240
I would argue open source,
1232
01:35:36.580 --> 01:35:37.080
software,
1233
01:35:37.860 --> 01:35:38.680
has monetized
1234
01:35:39.205 --> 01:35:40.265
has been through hosting.
1235
01:35:40.804 --> 01:35:46.425
Right? So, take something like Bitwarden, which we offer on the embassy, which is a password manager.
1236
01:35:47.220 --> 01:35:47.720
Bitwarden
1237
01:35:48.180 --> 01:35:51.880
built open source software, very good open source software,
1238
01:35:52.420 --> 01:35:55.985
knowing, in part, that nobody would self host it,
1239
01:35:56.545 --> 01:36:06.780
because nobody uses the command line to install self hosted software and host it, you know, and sets up port forwarding and static IPs and all of that. People don't do that. Right? By people, I mean 99.9%
1240
01:36:07.239 --> 01:36:08.060
of the population.
1241
01:36:08.520 --> 01:36:16.114
So they knew that they had a viable business even with the source code being open because they would charge people for hosting. And they've had a lot of success with that.
1242
01:36:16.655 --> 01:36:18.434
That's almost laughably,
1243
01:36:19.215 --> 01:36:21.954
oxymoronic profiles. Right? Like, we cannot
1244
01:36:23.280 --> 01:36:25.940
sell a product that is intended to
1245
01:36:26.480 --> 01:36:30.820
augment self hosting while offering hosting services. Like, it it's not only
1246
01:36:31.755 --> 01:36:36.175
hypocritical, it's impossible. Like, we couldn't do it. It it would just be a laughable thing.
1247
01:36:36.795 --> 01:36:38.735
So, like, our ability to monetize
1248
01:36:40.239 --> 01:36:44.739
is very limited. Right? And so currently, our business model is to
1249
01:36:45.280 --> 01:36:48.900
sell the hardware device at a very reasonable markup.
1250
01:36:49.475 --> 01:36:50.775
We have other ideas,
1251
01:36:51.235 --> 01:36:54.215
that we think are very viable of how to make money in the future,
1252
01:36:54.994 --> 01:36:55.494
but
1253
01:36:56.275 --> 01:36:57.094
none of them
1254
01:36:57.795 --> 01:36:58.260
are
1255
01:36:59.940 --> 01:37:05.880
imply a trust in us. Right? Like, we we as a principle, we are building everything such that,
1256
01:37:06.505 --> 01:37:13.165
it is decentralized and trustless. And so the only way that we will ever be able to monetize within that type of paradigm
1257
01:37:13.705 --> 01:37:15.565
is to, sell 2 things.
1258
01:37:17.460 --> 01:37:22.119
One is support, which has been a tried and true means of monetization,
1259
01:37:22.500 --> 01:37:28.835
though not super lucrative, I would argue, except with maybe the exception of Red Hat and a few others that are probably not aware of.
1260
01:37:29.695 --> 01:37:36.330
But, you know, we certainly don't intend to make a boatload of money off support or even fund a large team off of something like that.
1261
01:37:36.950 --> 01:37:42.410
But more and more, we have recognized that the only real way to make money in the decentralized
1262
01:37:43.095 --> 01:37:43.595
future
1263
01:37:44.135 --> 01:37:46.075
without building in your own,
1264
01:37:47.655 --> 01:37:51.835
gas shit coin, and therefore, destroying the project from the outset
1265
01:37:52.180 --> 01:37:55.800
is to sell convenience. Right? Ultimately, you are selling
1266
01:37:56.420 --> 01:37:56.920
convenience
1267
01:37:57.380 --> 01:37:59.400
and community. Right? You're making
1268
01:37:59.925 --> 01:38:00.585
the entire
1269
01:38:00.965 --> 01:38:01.465
experience
1270
01:38:02.005 --> 01:38:04.665
of using your software and using your product
1271
01:38:05.045 --> 01:38:06.905
as convenient as possible.
1272
01:38:07.340 --> 01:38:11.200
So for us, for example, selling a physical embassy
1273
01:38:11.820 --> 01:38:16.640
is not necessary. People can go buy the hardware at the hardware store and do it all themselves,
1274
01:38:17.185 --> 01:38:26.485
but we think most people are too lazy to do that, and so we'll buy the device from us. And we intend to sort of reapply that basic insight over and over and over again.
1275
01:38:27.830 --> 01:38:32.090
Maybe I'm getting a little bit off topic here, so just to bring it back to licensing, it's that,
1276
01:38:32.710 --> 01:38:36.090
you know, we viewed our unique situation
1277
01:38:37.145 --> 01:38:37.645
as
1278
01:38:38.905 --> 01:38:41.245
that we don't have a ton of ways to monetize,
1279
01:38:42.345 --> 01:38:43.885
and that we need
1280
01:38:44.460 --> 01:38:45.120
to protect
1281
01:38:45.740 --> 01:38:51.040
the essential value proposition that we are making to the world, which is our advanced
1282
01:38:51.655 --> 01:38:56.875
code and technology. So we are protecting that while also not breaking the principle
1283
01:38:57.415 --> 01:38:58.235
of decentralization
1284
01:38:58.535 --> 01:38:59.275
and trustlessness.
1285
01:38:59.655 --> 01:39:00.875
Okay? Like,
1286
01:39:01.450 --> 01:39:06.270
you know, if we all if we all get hit by a bus if we all get hit by a bus tomorrow,
1287
01:39:06.970 --> 01:39:08.910
then the project is dead,
1288
01:39:09.815 --> 01:39:15.435
because of our licensing in part. So that is a gamble that we are making currently
1289
01:39:15.815 --> 01:39:17.110
and that I don't feel comfortable
1290
01:39:27.215 --> 01:39:33.235
1291
01:39:33.695 --> 01:39:39.350
The support is one thing, but also the continuous development and the, you know, additional services you can,
1292
01:39:40.290 --> 01:39:44.150
find out on top, like, you know, Bitwarden. That's a very good example.
1293
01:39:45.835 --> 01:39:49.455
You can do a lot of things like, you know, you can you can openly
1294
01:39:49.915 --> 01:39:50.655
make people,
1295
01:39:52.235 --> 01:39:59.320
pay for backup a backup solution, for example, or, you know, to provide them a domain, an IP address,
1296
01:39:59.620 --> 01:40:05.385
or, you know, anything else which comes to your mind, and it's it's infinite possibilities in that.
1297
01:40:07.765 --> 01:40:09.225
1298
01:40:09.844 --> 01:40:26.744
Look. Your we we agree. We agree. Your your arguments are, not lost on us. We know. And like I said, this is a conversation. And, you know, there may come a day when there's enough convincing on one side that, hey, you know, we will have more success. And by success, I mean, like I said earlier,
1299
01:40:27.204 --> 01:40:27.704
reaching
1300
01:40:28.429 --> 01:40:31.250
our goal of building a better future.
1301
01:40:31.710 --> 01:40:32.210
Now
1302
01:40:32.830 --> 01:40:42.574
we recognize 2 things that are inherent in that statement. One, is that to get there, we're gonna need a lot of resources. Okay? You don't get to do what we're trying to do without
1303
01:40:43.350 --> 01:40:43.850
resources.
1304
01:40:44.550 --> 01:40:46.330
And 2, we are
1305
01:40:46.949 --> 01:40:49.850
just people, and we would like to live
1306
01:40:50.595 --> 01:40:58.455
good, happy lives. Like, I want to be rich. Right? That is not something I am in any way ashamed to say. I would never trade
1307
01:40:59.159 --> 01:41:07.659
that for my integrity or for, you know, adding value real value to the world. Like, I would never sell somebody a pile of shit and say it's gold.
1308
01:41:07.975 --> 01:41:11.835
But if I'm selling gold, I want to put that money in my
1309
01:41:12.215 --> 01:41:18.640
pocket and then reinvest it into the future I want to build. So we are here to make money
1310
01:41:19.180 --> 01:41:23.280
for the right reasons. At least, I can only say that for myself, I suppose. But
1311
01:41:24.555 --> 01:41:27.215
there's been a couple comments in the side that I should address.
1312
01:41:28.315 --> 01:41:31.615
I used the word lazy, and I think that has triggered a few people.
1313
01:41:32.930 --> 01:41:35.750
Let's back off of the word lazy and and just
1314
01:41:36.370 --> 01:41:37.910
observe the fact
1315
01:41:38.449 --> 01:41:39.270
that 99%
1316
01:41:39.650 --> 01:41:41.110
of people in this world
1317
01:41:41.415 --> 01:41:45.355
will not go assemble hardware from the hardware store,
1318
01:41:45.815 --> 01:41:47.755
flash software from the Internet,
1319
01:41:48.215 --> 01:41:49.195
and run it.
1320
01:41:49.574 --> 01:41:50.074
Our
1321
01:41:50.810 --> 01:41:51.310
hypothesis
1322
01:41:51.850 --> 01:41:53.550
is that people will,
1323
01:41:55.210 --> 01:41:58.910
buy a plug and play device that affords self hosting,
1324
01:41:59.465 --> 01:42:01.005
so long as the experience
1325
01:42:01.785 --> 01:42:03.085
is reminiscent
1326
01:42:03.545 --> 01:42:08.285
of their current computing experience. Right? Like, plugging in an embassy,
1327
01:42:09.010 --> 01:42:10.869
browsing the marketplace for services,
1328
01:42:11.250 --> 01:42:21.074
installing them, running them, visiting the websites that they are hosted on is extremely familiar even to highly untechnical people. So we don't think
1329
01:42:21.375 --> 01:42:24.594
that we are creating a barrier to entry in the
1330
01:42:25.850 --> 01:42:27.230
UX of our product.
1331
01:42:28.250 --> 01:42:31.150
But we recognize that it is a barrier to entry
1332
01:42:31.450 --> 01:42:34.270
if you are expecting people to, 1,
1333
01:42:34.665 --> 01:42:36.925
touch the command line at all,
1334
01:42:37.385 --> 01:42:40.045
you have lost a massive portion of the market.
1335
01:42:40.824 --> 01:42:47.699
And if you're expecting them to ever use Nano or BIM and not a graphical config system with validations,
1336
01:42:48.639 --> 01:42:51.219
you've also lost a massive portion of the market.
1337
01:42:51.805 --> 01:42:54.465
1338
01:42:55.245 --> 01:42:56.065
first off,
1339
01:42:56.845 --> 01:42:59.185
Matt, don't get don't let the troll box,
1340
01:42:59.565 --> 01:43:09.940
trigger you. They're gonna get triggered with something. Don't don't let them, don't let them trigger you just because you said lazy. I mean, the fact is, like, it's true. I think every group here
1341
01:43:10.345 --> 01:43:12.765
offers some sort of, like, prebuilt option.
1342
01:43:13.305 --> 01:43:20.080
Right? So, like, it's a reality. People a lot there are a lot of people who either don't have the time. Like, their time is more valuable
1343
01:43:20.700 --> 01:43:27.040
than buying the hardware separately and putting it on there and flashing and doing all their stuff. Even if they know command line,
1344
01:43:27.375 --> 01:43:33.954
they they might just like their time might be more valuable, and they want to just plug in a device and it be everything that they want,
1345
01:43:34.430 --> 01:43:35.730
and then they can go.
1346
01:43:36.110 --> 01:43:37.970
So that's really not even,
1347
01:43:38.350 --> 01:43:41.570
like that it's not like a a controversial statement.
1348
01:43:42.635 --> 01:43:43.135
Them
1349
01:43:43.514 --> 01:43:46.014
getting all butthurt about saying the word lazy
1350
01:43:46.554 --> 01:43:47.454
is absurd.
1351
01:43:47.915 --> 01:43:51.660
So as a person that gets trolled every time I do any of these things,
1352
01:43:52.140 --> 01:44:02.135
don't don't let it bother you. And, also, don't, like, feel like we're attacking you in particular. You guys took your time to, like, make the thing. I think the biggest issue that I have and why I,
1353
01:44:02.514 --> 01:44:04.695
you know, I reached out because I wanted this debate
1354
01:44:05.850 --> 01:44:07.550
I wanted this to not debate.
1355
01:44:07.930 --> 01:44:09.710
This conversation. Right? Because
1356
01:44:11.770 --> 01:44:14.350
I don't wanna see Bitcoin lose its core fundamentals.
1357
01:44:15.530 --> 01:44:22.494
The core fundamentals was get the tool like, the way that I see it, right, it's about get Bitcoin was about getting heart, like, good,
1358
01:44:23.675 --> 01:44:28.880
peer to peer digital cash to the world. Right? And you don't do that through,
1359
01:44:30.140 --> 01:44:31.760
through closed sourced anything.
1360
01:44:32.300 --> 01:44:37.204
And so ever there was never leading up until I mean, like, in the last couple years,
1361
01:44:38.224 --> 01:44:42.405
you were either false. Like, if you were developing in the Bitcoin space, it was false or nothing.
1362
01:44:42.990 --> 01:44:43.490
So,
1363
01:44:44.270 --> 01:44:49.490
and I'm starting to see a trend off of that. I'm not saying it's your fault. I'm not saying it's, you know, my node or
1364
01:44:49.870 --> 01:44:50.370
Umbrel.
1365
01:44:51.995 --> 01:45:03.710
It's it's a trend that I see. Right? And it and I don't wanna see that. I I personally don't wanna see that because, you know, this is I see it as a final stand. Right? Because what why do why does anybody
1366
01:45:04.170 --> 01:45:08.670
why like like, one of the things that I took away that was kinda skated around is
1367
01:45:09.175 --> 01:45:13.275
you close source yourself to protect your intellectual your intellectual property.
1368
01:45:13.655 --> 01:45:26.950
Right? Or you close it off or you make it more restrictive, whatever, however you wanna frame it. You make it work more restrictive because VCs and in in order for you to get a good team, to have a business model, and to go forth, and to do the great things that we wanna do, you need to have VCs
1369
01:45:28.205 --> 01:45:31.505
to get the funding, and VCs are not don't wanna invest in something
1370
01:45:31.965 --> 01:45:44.605
that isn't proprietary of some sort. Right? That that you don't have the intellectual property that someone can just fork it. You know what? Like, that's the battle that we've chosen as people who are trying to develop in the Bitcoin world. We made a choice.
1371
01:45:45.304 --> 01:45:49.804
And the choice that we made was to get in and to deliver tools
1372
01:45:50.185 --> 01:45:54.220
to make people more sovereign. Like, as node as node like,
1373
01:45:54.700 --> 01:45:55.360
you know,
1374
01:45:55.740 --> 01:45:58.000
installer group. I don't even know what we call ourselves.
1375
01:45:58.300 --> 01:45:58.800
But,
1376
01:45:59.185 --> 01:46:19.135
you know, like, that's that's, like, the realm that we went. You know? I even give less I I my mindset's changed on, like, your guys' license and what you guys have done a lot because of what you've said and that you guys your original thought wasn't like, we're Bitcoin node first and all these other things. It was like, we wanna host sovereign apps. And so that's a different perspective.
1377
01:46:19.515 --> 01:46:21.855
But, like, for me, it's,
1378
01:46:22.395 --> 01:46:24.655
you know, I I made the
1379
01:46:25.040 --> 01:46:36.385
I made the initial intent of I wanna help bring, you know, for Ronan in particular. Like, I wanted to bring Dojo to as many people as possible because I believe in the project. I believe in Bitcoin, and I wanted to see
1380
01:46:36.765 --> 01:46:55.885
these tools get to as many people as humanly possible. So my business model goes around that. I'll never have you know there will never be a time where people cannot find the free option. You know, if they wanna go and they wanna buy all the stuff themselves and they wanna do it themselves, great. If you wanna buy a plug and play node, a premium one, that's awesome. If you wanna buy
1381
01:46:56.505 --> 01:47:01.690
a, you know, a 3 d printed case or whatever, you wanna buy some other things, like, you wanna pay for,
1382
01:47:02.070 --> 01:47:11.925
premium support, awesome. Like, we'll like, we will survive. Like, our our goal is not rich is not to get rich, not to do anything, enough to sustain,
1383
01:47:12.625 --> 01:47:16.165
and let's keep moving. Let's keep delivering the tools moving forward.
1384
01:47:17.040 --> 01:47:24.900
And so I think it's what everyone's mindset is to to start. I'm not saying it's you, Matt, so don't take, like, what I'm saying is an attack on you personally,
1385
01:47:25.765 --> 01:47:35.080
because it's not. It's really like it's that that mindset of, like, why are why are we developing in the space? And if it's to to provide a better future,
1386
01:47:36.500 --> 01:47:42.679
like, find a business model that works because the minute that we start closing things off and start making things proprietary,
1387
01:47:43.705 --> 01:47:47.485
not to say that you can't protect yourself with particular license, but, like,
1388
01:47:47.785 --> 01:47:58.230
you the moment that we start to close everything off, right, is the moment that we start to get captured by VCs and we start to get captured by big corporations and everything else. And that is not
1389
01:47:58.885 --> 01:48:00.185
not in my perspective.
1390
01:48:00.565 --> 01:48:06.425
That's not the way that I I vision Bitcoin going. I don't I don't wanna see a future where Bitcoin
1391
01:48:06.890 --> 01:48:15.870
is captured by VCs and mega corporations and everything else because that's what we accepted just to to because the initial goal was to get something,
1392
01:48:16.325 --> 01:48:21.145
you know, better for the world. And then next thing you know, you're captured. You know? So
1393
01:48:22.005 --> 01:48:29.670
that's just my personal personal take, but I know that we wanted to talk about something next. Well, just just
1394
01:48:30.250 --> 01:48:30.750
1395
01:48:31.330 --> 01:48:32.470
one point. I
1396
01:48:33.090 --> 01:48:34.790
1397
01:48:35.555 --> 01:48:56.705
1398
01:49:00.780 --> 01:49:14.054
1399
01:49:14.435 --> 01:49:18.760
which are fine. Oh, and by the way, I just wanted to say this because it's kinda a neat little thing that we're doing.
1400
01:49:19.400 --> 01:49:21.180
In the next version of Embassy OS,
1401
01:49:21.640 --> 01:49:29.645
there will be a donation section of each service that we offer, such that whoever developed it can add a link, using BDC Pay or Lightning.
1402
01:49:30.105 --> 01:49:37.610
And so users of Embassy will be able to donate directly to the the projects that they like. Nothing to do with what we're doing here. We're just really excited about
1403
01:49:38.550 --> 01:49:42.890
helping to finance the projects that are, you know, populating our platform.
1404
01:49:44.955 --> 01:49:47.135
1405
01:49:47.515 --> 01:49:49.455
we're we're in agreement then
1406
01:49:49.755 --> 01:49:55.570
1407
01:49:56.030 --> 01:50:05.635
1408
01:50:06.095 --> 01:50:10.990
1409
01:50:11.930 --> 01:50:12.570
I see this
1410
01:50:13.690 --> 01:50:16.670
may maybe it's just what I see. Right? Like, I see more
1411
01:50:17.130 --> 01:50:19.790
big VC like, big seed money,
1412
01:50:20.285 --> 01:50:21.905
and then following it
1413
01:50:22.605 --> 01:50:23.105
is
1414
01:50:24.045 --> 01:50:28.305
a different license. That's just maybe a trend that I'm seeing. Maybe it's just totally
1415
01:50:28.930 --> 01:50:31.510
not a trend, and I'm just saying what I wanna see. But,
1416
01:50:33.570 --> 01:50:41.094
1417
01:50:41.395 --> 01:50:44.760
1418
01:50:45.219 --> 01:50:48.119
2, and they are heavily VC VC,
1419
01:50:48.739 --> 01:50:49.800
founded. So
1420
01:50:50.429 --> 01:50:50.929
yeah.
1421
01:50:52.275 --> 01:50:54.775
1422
01:50:56.275 --> 01:50:58.215
1423
01:50:58.675 --> 01:51:00.534
VCs will will come to you.
1424
01:51:02.230 --> 01:51:04.250
1425
01:51:04.870 --> 01:51:22.620
1426
01:51:23.080 --> 01:51:26.460
really good perspective. I've seen so many people email me and
1427
01:51:26.825 --> 01:51:29.965
say, like, I really want to be running
1428
01:51:30.344 --> 01:51:40.039
a my new device in my case. I'm sure other people have seen this too, but it's people that come and say, like, thank you so much for creating something that has given me the ability to feel like I'm participating
1429
01:51:40.659 --> 01:51:41.960
in all of this amazing
1430
01:51:42.505 --> 01:51:45.645
development that's going on in the Bitcoin world, and they
1431
01:51:46.025 --> 01:51:50.845
they it's not about time, it's that, like, they they don't have the skills, they have expertise in other areas,
1432
01:51:51.830 --> 01:51:58.090
but they still want to be involved and feel like they're, you know, opening channels and participating in the Lightning Network or using
1433
01:51:58.695 --> 01:52:02.554
the Bitcoin privacy tools and things like that, and it's just really awesome to see and,
1434
01:52:03.735 --> 01:52:08.130
that's exactly why I started my note. It wasn't necessarily to make money, I
1435
01:52:08.430 --> 01:52:14.370
wanted it to be sustainable so that it could make enough to, you know, fund my time and mostly, you know, keep me accountable
1436
01:52:14.865 --> 01:52:17.445
to the people that have purchased the project. Right? Like,
1437
01:52:18.065 --> 01:52:35.125
when someone purchases something, it's, like, it's not about the money, it's about, like, I feel like I owe them something now, and I have to deliver the best experience possible to that person because they've now trusted me with their hard earned money to go buy this product, and I want to continue,
1438
01:52:35.505 --> 01:52:42.980
like, supporting it and making them, like, as happy as possible and giving them as much, flexibility and power as possible to sort of,
1439
01:52:43.620 --> 01:52:48.440
self host apps, although my focus has been only on the Bitcoin related apps in the past.
1440
01:52:48.900 --> 01:52:52.585
But then, Zelco, to a point that you said, I thought it was interesting.
1441
01:52:54.025 --> 01:52:55.165
You said you wanted
1442
01:52:55.705 --> 01:52:58.605
to get Ronin Dojo out there to as many people as possible,
1443
01:52:59.010 --> 01:53:04.310
And I agree with that. I think we all want that. That's our goal. But I also don't necessarily know if,
1444
01:53:04.690 --> 01:53:11.145
like, that is the most optimal way. And I this is based on my experience over the past couple years. Like, being open source only,
1445
01:53:11.925 --> 01:53:29.205
and not that I'm fully FOSS according to, like, the the definition of it, but by being a project, especially a small one, I think there are challenges, like Matt was saying, with with marketing. Right? Like, I'm terrible at marketing. I'll admit that now. Like, I wish I was better at it. I wish I was way better at it. But,
1446
01:53:29.844 --> 01:53:34.905
I I and that's why I think, like, sometimes getting VC funding is actually gonna get you
1447
01:53:35.210 --> 01:53:43.310
much more exposure because you're now gonna have a marketing budget and be able to hire people that are good at that kind of thing and get vastly more exposure
1448
01:53:43.685 --> 01:53:50.905
than just relying on sort of word-of-mouth community type engagement. So while I agree with you that I want my note in front of as many people as possible,
1449
01:53:51.280 --> 01:54:07.804
I also don't think I've looking back, I don't think I've taken an optimal approach to that. I think I mean, probably what Umbrell did was the optimal approach to getting it in front of as many people as possible. Don't focus on, like, flexibility exactly. Focus on UI and marketing budgets and, you know, it
1450
01:54:08.120 --> 01:54:14.300
1451
01:54:14.920 --> 01:54:17.500
take away all the user choice and make everything
1452
01:54:18.265 --> 01:54:20.045
as simple stupid as possible.
1453
01:54:20.665 --> 01:54:27.165
I mean, there's, like, to an extent that should be a thing. But, I mean, if you're running your own node, doing quotations,
1454
01:54:27.640 --> 01:54:29.740
but you can't control anything,
1455
01:54:30.280 --> 01:54:41.095
what like, what's the point? You know, like, if I can't configure things because they took away all those options because they wanted to streamline and make it easier. If I can't add Tor Bridges,
1456
01:54:41.555 --> 01:54:44.375
right, without, you know, some sort of security
1457
01:54:46.150 --> 01:54:47.449
security measure,
1458
01:54:47.750 --> 01:54:48.250
right,
1459
01:54:48.870 --> 01:55:02.574
then what like, what's the point? Like, if I can't actually utilize my node the way that it want the way that I wanna run it, I'm not running a node. Like Oh, 3%. Sorry. I'm fine. I'm fine. I know that you agree with me. I know. I'm I'm just, like, more speaking out on it. Like,
1460
01:55:04.130 --> 01:55:08.770
I I 100% disagree with the fact that, like, how that their approach is, like,
1461
01:55:10.125 --> 01:55:13.185
they're trying to appeal to these no coiners.
1462
01:55:13.645 --> 01:55:15.824
And, like, okay. Cool.
1463
01:55:16.125 --> 01:55:22.820
But you're not your approach isn't going to to last. Like, I'm sure that my notice have plenty of people,
1464
01:55:23.140 --> 01:55:32.275
you know, refugee over. I know we're getting a lot of refugees over, and it's because that that simple approach doesn't work. It's not it's it's not effective.
1465
01:55:32.735 --> 01:55:34.034
Right? And
1466
01:55:34.335 --> 01:55:40.280
people people want to be able to do what they want to do with their node. So I I like their whole approach,
1467
01:55:40.820 --> 01:55:46.355
like, yeah, you can have all the good marketing, but if your tech sucks, then, you know, you're just gonna be right back in the beginning.
1468
01:55:46.755 --> 01:55:53.575
And from the reverse side, right, like, if we have good tech, whether that's, like, anyone here, I think everyone has really good software.
1469
01:55:53.990 --> 01:55:54.890
At the end of the
1470
01:55:55.270 --> 01:55:57.450
day, right, if you don't run good tech,
1471
01:55:57.830 --> 01:56:06.795
it you could have the best marketing in the world. And what's the point? Right? Like, you're not going to get the people that you need. You just have something that looks good. But at the end of the day, you have a really
1472
01:56:07.175 --> 01:56:10.475
nice smelling piece of shit. You know? So
1473
01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:23.565
1474
01:56:24.505 --> 01:56:27.965
This is what dispatch is about, so I appreciate you guys and appreciate this discussion.
1475
01:56:28.540 --> 01:56:32.960
I think this is a great push off point, on Zelko's last comment.
1476
01:56:33.900 --> 01:56:35.679
You know, dispatch is
1477
01:56:36.474 --> 01:56:37.695
was kind of reactionary.
1478
01:56:38.315 --> 01:56:41.695
The creation of dispatch was reactionary against, like, these, like,
1479
01:56:42.074 --> 01:56:43.695
Bitcoin philosopher podcasts,
1480
01:56:44.710 --> 01:56:47.930
where there was, like, no actionable discussion at all whatsoever.
1481
01:56:49.510 --> 01:56:53.770
And an actionable aspect of what Zelco just discussed there
1482
01:56:54.375 --> 01:56:59.195
is a scenario where there's a Bitcoin fork, specifically a contentious fork.
1483
01:56:59.895 --> 01:57:05.190
And I would like some discussion here in terms of I mean, we can use Taproot an example. I think it's less contentious.
1484
01:57:05.730 --> 01:57:08.150
But how these node projects, how your implementations
1485
01:57:08.610 --> 01:57:10.310
are going to handle a situation,
1486
01:57:12.345 --> 01:57:13.965
where the user, you know
1487
01:57:14.345 --> 01:57:23.370
like, how how do you handle a situation where the user needs to decide what they're gonna run? Do you decide for them? Is your license permissive enough that they get to decide for themselves?
1488
01:57:24.150 --> 01:57:29.370
Is that a security issue for Bitcoin going forward, if if the user does not have a choice?
1489
01:57:34.054 --> 01:57:38.474
1490
01:57:38.970 --> 01:57:41.390
done by people and also distributed,
1491
01:57:41.930 --> 01:57:46.090
and, and, obviously, everyone should re read those. But,
1492
01:57:48.025 --> 01:57:49.965
similar to as an alternative,
1493
01:57:51.865 --> 01:57:52.365
parallel,
1494
01:57:53.465 --> 01:57:59.380
Bitcoin core implementation has appeared when there was a question about if how to activate,
1495
01:58:00.160 --> 01:58:00.660
Taproot.
1496
01:58:01.600 --> 01:58:04.180
The same way with a free open source,
1497
01:58:04.855 --> 01:58:06.395
obviously, similarly licensed
1498
01:58:06.695 --> 01:58:07.995
to Bitcoin project.
1499
01:58:09.335 --> 01:58:09.835
Anytime
1500
01:58:10.375 --> 01:58:16.360
a 4 can appear, which can just does whatever those group of users wants to have.
1501
01:58:17.620 --> 01:58:20.280
And that's that's a solution because it will,
1502
01:58:20.765 --> 01:58:27.344
you know, leap forward, which is more wanted, and then, obviously, everyone can just move towards this.
1503
01:58:33.650 --> 01:58:36.310
1504
01:58:36.850 --> 01:58:39.485
like, keto. Like, what's your thoughts on,
1505
01:58:40.344 --> 01:58:41.405
how you would
1506
01:58:41.945 --> 01:58:43.165
how you'd handle that,
1507
01:58:44.560 --> 01:58:49.360
1508
01:58:50.000 --> 01:58:52.180
Maybe there there's a potential hard fork.
1509
01:58:54.105 --> 01:58:55.085
Maybe b cash
1510
01:58:55.385 --> 01:59:00.025
v 3 or something or v 8. I don't know what number we're on, but say something, and,
1511
01:59:00.505 --> 01:59:02.125
1512
01:59:04.010 --> 01:59:04.750
You know,
1513
01:59:05.290 --> 01:59:06.190
moving forward.
1514
01:59:07.050 --> 01:59:10.030
What's your what's your thoughts? What's your actions look like?
1515
01:59:10.895 --> 01:59:14.115
1516
01:59:14.495 --> 01:59:17.155
a fork of Bitcoin Core tomorrow,
1517
01:59:18.110 --> 01:59:19.170
we will definitely
1518
01:59:19.630 --> 01:59:23.329
let our users choose which one they want to go with.
1519
01:59:25.365 --> 01:59:30.985
That being said, it didn't happen yet, so it's hard to know what what what we're actually doing in such a situation.
1520
01:59:32.580 --> 01:59:33.320
For the
1521
01:59:33.620 --> 01:59:35.800
in in case if the
1522
01:59:36.100 --> 01:59:38.199
if the tap root activation,
1523
01:59:39.380 --> 01:59:40.679
lock in didn't happen
1524
01:59:42.345 --> 01:59:43.965
last week. We'll probably
1525
01:59:44.265 --> 01:59:45.085
offer the
1526
01:59:45.785 --> 01:59:49.155
the option to run the fork of Bitcoin call that,
1527
01:59:50.620 --> 01:59:52.960
allows for the user soft fork.
1528
01:59:54.460 --> 01:59:55.280
But, yeah,
1529
01:59:55.660 --> 01:59:58.415
it's it's really hard to to know, like,
1530
01:59:58.975 --> 02:00:00.515
what we would do if,
1531
02:00:01.295 --> 02:00:03.395
since this situation didn't happen before.
1532
02:00:08.349 --> 02:00:13.525
1533
02:00:14.165 --> 02:00:18.585
everybody if if we don't offer her a solution or the alternative,
1534
02:00:19.364 --> 02:00:37.655
anybody can just fork it, put it out there, and people can just up their speed update their USB blitzes to those fork kind of, release there. So that's that's the fall fallback, and that's the freedom for everybody to do. And I think at the moment, we are at a point where every project out there will say we will provide every option to the user.
1535
02:00:38.020 --> 02:00:43.400
And that's why we are I think we we are still early, and and and nobody wants to to scare off the community.
1536
02:00:44.420 --> 02:00:47.000
But we have to play through the scenario when,
1537
02:00:48.165 --> 02:00:52.345
what what what can happen so that the node project doesn't offer you something,
1538
02:00:53.205 --> 02:00:56.105
and and then you're in a locked locked in situation.
1539
02:00:56.565 --> 02:00:59.050
Is How feasible is this situation?
1540
02:00:59.590 --> 02:01:01.050
And we were talking about
1541
02:01:01.430 --> 02:01:01.930
startups,
1542
02:01:02.390 --> 02:01:05.530
node projects being startups. What is fair in the beginning?
1543
02:01:06.625 --> 02:01:14.965
But but I have to say, I'm ahead of US start up, and and I made the I made the experience, like, having programs on a on a on a software
1544
02:01:15.350 --> 02:01:22.630
that really owned and I cofounded the company and and stuff. And in the end, I was not that clever to be kicked out of the company.
1545
02:01:23.110 --> 02:01:27.885
Now every founder say, oh, we have 51%, whatever. But there are tricks or whatever.
1546
02:01:28.345 --> 02:01:33.005
Investors play this game longer than you, and they know exactly how to get control in a company.
1547
02:01:33.310 --> 02:01:33.630
So,
1548
02:01:34.429 --> 02:01:49.065
yeah. And in the end, you sit there, and you lost your code. And now this code is owned by somebody else. It's not longer your thing. It's no longer your baby. That's a hard feeling. So that's some for some people to consider if they, as an attack vector on on a full node project,
1549
02:01:49.605 --> 02:02:11.530
just because when you have a prop proprietary license that is not free and open source and and you have an investor, this is a scenario you have to think of. And there's a lot of banks out there that have a lot of money to invest into start ups, and in the end, they will love you and say, yeah. Sure. You have all the freedoms. But, yeah, there is a control creeping in vector there, so you have to keep that in mind. And then you have have a have a situation
1550
02:02:11.990 --> 02:02:21.055
where you have a node that is targeted to newbies that are not very technically keen. You give them an easy system to use. That's why they're all there and using and a lot of people are using your system.
1551
02:02:21.675 --> 02:02:30.140
And then this come then a critical 4 comes that it's important to the direction where Bitcoin goes. Privacy or or something else. And and then this
1552
02:02:30.840 --> 02:02:36.125
your start up with this bank control creep in creep in maybe says, no. We will not do this.
1553
02:02:36.445 --> 02:02:39.985
And what choice do we have? So what choice do users have?
1554
02:02:40.285 --> 02:02:50.050
And, so so you have to keep those kind of, scenarios in mind. I know they are theoretical a little bit because we're in a very early phase where this thing is not not a not imminent threat.
1555
02:02:50.350 --> 02:03:00.135
But we want to set the roads here into the right direction. So, this is definitely something I just wanna let everybody know that having a start up with some restrictive license
1556
02:03:01.315 --> 02:03:04.695
just maybe not your maybe not be your start up in the future.
1557
02:03:05.240 --> 02:03:11.500
You never know. So so keep that in mind, and and the freedom to fork is really something that's very, very important,
1558
02:03:12.040 --> 02:03:18.535
for for a project. So if there's a free and open source license, somebody else can always come in and say, I I I give you an alternative.
1559
02:03:18.995 --> 02:03:23.840
And I just wanna quickly address because Taylor was was talking about this business source license,
1560
02:03:24.140 --> 02:03:31.115
which is this idea of, oh, it will become open source after a certain time. I think this is a good idea for some projects out there,
1561
02:03:31.515 --> 02:03:33.215
that not that time critical,
1562
02:03:34.235 --> 02:03:40.975
but especially for Bitcoin. So imagine you have a business source license that says, oh, here's our full node project. And after 2 years,
1563
02:03:41.660 --> 02:03:48.640
this it will be it will be, open source. So no problem. So, but here comes the point. There comes a fork now, and you have
1564
02:03:59.310 --> 02:04:01.230
We we lost little bit in a lock
1565
02:04:01.630 --> 02:04:08.265
you lost me? I'm back. Yeah. You're broken up. Okay. Sorry for that. I tried my Internet connection here.
1566
02:04:08.905 --> 02:04:17.309
And now you have this this, this fork situation, and now users have just a choice to use a 2 years old fork, and this might not become
1567
02:04:17.949 --> 02:04:26.335
you cannot update to this fork anymore because so so many things change. And I think even Umbrel did not exist, I think, maybe 2 years ago. So So this is really,
1568
02:04:27.035 --> 02:04:28.815
in 2 years or something, a lot of stuff
1569
02:04:29.195 --> 02:04:29.855
can change.
1570
02:04:30.315 --> 02:04:30.815
And
1571
02:04:31.275 --> 02:04:58.540
if you make it very short, like, oh, it's just 2 months or something, then why do it at all? So this is a little bit of questions I would like to inspire discussion now. How do you find the right balance there, and what are maybe really the dangers of running a full node that is not complete? I'd like to I'd like to jump in and comment on the Bitcoin, you know, soft and hard fork scenarios and cause we've we've put a lot of thought into that. And then, sure, we could, I think, turn up the conversation a little if you'd like, Matt. But,
1572
02:04:59.560 --> 02:05:00.940
1573
02:05:01.614 --> 02:05:02.675
Embassy OS
1574
02:05:03.054 --> 02:05:32.380
with the principle of, you know, your computer, your software. Right? Like, that's the whole problem with the computing paradigm today is that you're not using your own software. Right? Your phone and your laptop are just remote controls for somebody else's server and software. So, we, you know, have basic principles in the Embassy operating system of no forced updates. Right? So first of all, you install Embassy OS and it comes with nothing. It's a blank operating system, and you choose from the get go what you want to install.
1575
02:05:33.320 --> 02:05:34.380
And because of that
1576
02:05:35.225 --> 02:05:35.725
architecture,
1577
02:05:36.905 --> 02:05:43.725
and because of the openness of our marketplace, which is about to become more apparent in the next release, but it is essentially open,
1578
02:05:44.619 --> 02:05:45.119
Anyone
1579
02:05:45.739 --> 02:05:47.440
in the world can package,
1580
02:05:49.260 --> 02:05:52.719
a service for Embassy OS and make it available
1581
02:05:53.325 --> 02:05:54.225
on a marketplace.
1582
02:05:54.605 --> 02:06:10.110
Now we have our marketplace. Right? And we want it to be super clean, and we're not gonna allow malware on there. We're only gonna put things on our marketplace that we think people in the world want to use and that are safe to use. And, obviously, we can't read every line of every code,
1583
02:06:10.975 --> 02:06:14.195
written by every project that become that enters our marketplace,
1584
02:06:14.655 --> 02:06:23.990
but we can rely on the openness of those projects on the on the fact that they've been around for a while, you know, on the trustedness, and then provide the proper warnings to our users
1585
02:06:24.450 --> 02:06:36.815
when they go to install a given project. Like, hey. Make sure that you, yourself, trust this project. Like, you know, you can validate the signature that it is what you think it is, but you're still sort of installing the software at your own risk.
1586
02:06:37.340 --> 02:06:46.400
And because of the openness of the marketplace, there is absolutely nothing that prohibits multiple Bitcoin implementations from existing side by side on the marketplace.
1587
02:06:47.285 --> 02:06:50.745
Now this almost came about in reality a few weeks ago,
1588
02:06:51.205 --> 02:06:52.745
with the alternative Taproot,
1589
02:06:53.135 --> 02:06:53.635
implementation.
1590
02:06:54.599 --> 02:06:58.940
And, you know, we had some people coming into our channel being like, hey. I wanna run this thing. Can I?
1591
02:06:59.400 --> 02:07:06.605
And we were like, look. If there is demand for this, we ourselves will package it up, put it onto our marketplace,
1592
02:07:07.305 --> 02:07:08.365
apply the appropriate
1593
02:07:08.825 --> 02:07:14.410
warnings and caveats, and, like, hey. If you download this, here's what you're doing. Here's the potential pitfalls,
1594
02:07:14.790 --> 02:07:15.850
etcetera, etcetera.
1595
02:07:16.710 --> 02:07:19.415
But say, like, we didn't do that. Say, like, there was
1596
02:07:20.115 --> 02:07:41.385
a client that somebody really wanted to use, and we as a team decided that it was BS and we don't wanna do it. Anyone on earth could go package that client up as, s nine p k, which is the format that the embassy requires it to be in, and submit it and say, hey. Start 9, will you put this on your marketplace? And we could then say, no. We don't want that crap in our marketplace. We already said that.
1597
02:07:41.925 --> 02:07:46.400
They could then spin up their own marketplace since that is an open, protocol,
1598
02:07:46.940 --> 02:07:51.120
and we have published the protocol spec for that, and users could actually
1599
02:07:51.635 --> 02:07:59.880
switch to their marketplace. So in Embassy, you can choose the marketplace that you want to shop at. So for whatever reason, we're not offering the service that you want,
1600
02:08:00.440 --> 02:08:01.420
one of our competitors
1601
02:08:01.880 --> 02:08:05.420
can. And so we in no way control the future of
1602
02:08:05.880 --> 02:08:13.284
the software that can be run, on Embassy. So, alternative Bitcoin clients are totally up to the users
1603
02:08:13.824 --> 02:08:15.284
and the, packagers,
1604
02:08:15.985 --> 02:08:17.685
and the producers of those services.
1605
02:08:18.860 --> 02:08:20.720
We just hope to provide the most
1606
02:08:21.340 --> 02:08:21.840
clear
1607
02:08:22.460 --> 02:08:25.040
and safe experience that we can
1608
02:08:25.525 --> 02:08:29.545
to our users, which eventually, you know, if they're gonna go to an alternative marketplace,
1609
02:08:30.405 --> 02:08:36.950
we're basically gonna say, you know, good luck. You know, you're you're on your own, but it's your computer. Do whatever the hell you want with it.
1610
02:08:38.530 --> 02:08:39.830
Likewise. Back.
1611
02:08:42.105 --> 02:08:49.245
1612
02:08:49.670 --> 02:08:57.770
But, like, on the technical side, it it just has seemed from my perspective trying to, you know, maintain things that if I wanted to easily
1613
02:08:58.155 --> 02:09:14.480
support a different Lightning or Bitcoin implementation or whatever, like, they often have different well, more on the Lightning side, I guess, but they have different, like, RPCs, and so it's not like a user could continue running all of the apps that they've been running if they just said, okay. I wanna swap out my light lightning implementation.
1614
02:09:15.255 --> 02:09:16.535
1615
02:09:17.175 --> 02:09:25.060
1616
02:09:25.520 --> 02:09:30.980
highly sophisticated dependency management system built into the operating system. So, for example,
1617
02:09:31.285 --> 02:09:37.785
I could come in today, a and a user of an Embassy today could download Embassy or, you know, plug in their Embassy
1618
02:09:38.245 --> 02:09:39.785
and install Sphinx chat
1619
02:09:40.400 --> 02:09:47.780
by itself. They have nothing else on the machine except Sphinx. Embassy would immediately go into a dependency, you know, error situation
1620
02:09:48.400 --> 02:09:49.219
and provide
1621
02:09:49.885 --> 02:09:52.545
one you know, put a blindfold on button clicks
1622
02:09:52.925 --> 02:09:56.704
to solve the dependency issue, which would be obviously to install LND
1623
02:09:57.005 --> 02:10:15.405
and then obviously to install Bitcoin. But then it's like, oh, Bitcoin's not synced. So there will be a different issue that displays that says, well, Sphinx isn't happy because LND isn't happy because Bitcoin isn't synced yet. So you need to wait until Bitcoin is synced. And all of this is presented to the user in graphical format, and it extends even to configurations.
1624
02:10:16.265 --> 02:10:18.780
For example, let's say you wanted to install
1625
02:10:19.160 --> 02:10:19.900
a service
1626
02:10:20.360 --> 02:10:22.860
that required that a specific RPC
1627
02:10:23.560 --> 02:10:32.625
call be enabled in Bitcoin Core, as in it requires a certain version of Bitcoin Core or even a particular configuration of Bitcoin Core. So bitcoins.com
1628
02:10:33.085 --> 02:10:34.545
file is massive. Right?
1629
02:10:35.040 --> 02:10:38.420
And lnd is only gonna be happy if certain,
1630
02:10:38.800 --> 02:10:39.780
you know, configurations
1631
02:10:40.239 --> 02:10:42.980
are, you know, an expected way.
1632
02:10:43.295 --> 02:10:52.514
In the world today, that is a dotcom file, that is a, you know, looking online, that is reading readme's, and then getting it to work. With the OS that we've built,
1633
02:10:53.610 --> 02:11:11.900
lnd will actually tell you. It's like, hey. Bitcoin is not configured in the way that I need it to be configured. Would you like me to configure it for you? And then you click yes and then it configures it and then it restarts everything and it all just works. So what I'm saying is that even if somebody were to put some crazy piece of software on the marketplace,
1634
02:11:13.960 --> 02:11:18.095
it would still have to abide by this system. Now could they could they
1635
02:11:18.475 --> 02:11:19.135
be malicious?
1636
02:11:19.595 --> 02:11:25.120
Could they put something on the marketplace that says, hey. I need c lightning when it actually needs lnd?
1637
02:11:25.580 --> 02:11:33.405
Sure. But it won't be on our marketplace because we will be vetting the things that get onto our marketplace in order to provide this seamless experience.
1638
02:11:33.945 --> 02:11:35.645
So back to the fork issue,
1639
02:11:36.025 --> 02:11:38.364
if there's a fork of Bitcoin Core
1640
02:11:38.905 --> 02:11:40.605
that everyone wants to run
1641
02:11:40.920 --> 02:11:51.725
and we, as a team, for whatever reason, have decided that we're not gonna put it on our marketplace because we think it's fucking malware or something like that. But But somebody else in the world goes, you know what? I'll do it. Hey, Embassy users worldwide,
1642
02:11:52.105 --> 02:11:54.445
visit my marketplace and you can get the thing.
1643
02:11:55.145 --> 02:11:56.685
They are trusting that person,
1644
02:11:57.239 --> 02:12:00.380
right, not only to deliver the client
1645
02:12:00.840 --> 02:12:03.739
that they're claiming to deliver with signature validation,
1646
02:12:04.365 --> 02:12:06.705
but also that it has been packaged
1647
02:12:07.085 --> 02:12:07.585
properly
1648
02:12:08.045 --> 02:12:15.469
such that Embassy OS can do its job. Right? It's like packaging an app for the App Store, Play Store. It's like So you basically reinvented
1649
02:12:16.570 --> 02:12:17.389
1650
02:12:18.010 --> 02:12:19.789
which exist for 30 years.
1651
02:12:20.730 --> 02:12:22.110
1652
02:12:23.675 --> 02:12:38.410
Yeah. Like any Linux distribution handles dependencies and packages and all of what you just said. Yes. Such that they can be presented to a totally nontechnical user through a graphical operating system. That's literally what we do as a company. So we Okay. That's called Ubuntu.
1653
02:12:39.485 --> 02:12:40.545
No. No. No.
1654
02:12:42.525 --> 02:12:45.025
No. It's it's all command line all over the place.
1655
02:12:45.565 --> 02:12:49.890
1656
02:12:50.750 --> 02:12:59.574
You you say that, the it's a marketplace and somebody you can just switch to another marketplace, but, again, you always told on your marketplace, you maybe,
1657
02:13:00.675 --> 02:13:03.895
shoe stuff. How do we make sure that the software
1658
02:13:04.410 --> 02:13:13.469
never there's a hostile takeover of your company, and you don't have a say anymore in in what's what's really getting into production. And somebody says, no. We will block certain marketplaces,
1659
02:13:14.525 --> 02:13:22.670
because we don't think that we want to protect the user or something. Yeah. Something like that. Normally, it comes some under some marketing pretense or so.
1660
02:13:23.230 --> 02:13:27.730
So how will I make sure, as a Embassy user, that you, as a company,
1661
02:13:28.190 --> 02:13:29.250
never censor,
1662
02:13:29.630 --> 02:13:30.370
a marketplace?
1663
02:13:31.355 --> 02:13:46.079
1664
02:13:46.539 --> 02:14:05.165
and we, in our source code, say, you're not gonna be able to visit this marketplace. We prevent it from happening. And because our source code is not FOSS, there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. I agree with your assessment. And if that day ever comes and we find ourselves in that position, then we will reassess our licensing approach. Right? I
1665
02:14:05.945 --> 02:14:15.670
1666
02:14:16.050 --> 02:14:19.830
or at least some people surrounding Umbrel since every it's a little bit hard to say.
1667
02:14:22.065 --> 02:14:23.925
1668
02:14:24.945 --> 02:14:29.845
1669
02:14:30.385 --> 02:14:31.605
yeah. Sure. You make
1670
02:14:31.970 --> 02:14:44.565
make a everybody can install free pages or we have a marketplace where people could can put stuff on there, and you can change maybe even a marketplace. But again, if if the users are not in control of the software, the company could change this in the future.
1671
02:14:44.945 --> 02:15:00.145
And and it's very hard then and this is the still the the licensing or the censoring issue. A little bit like Apple. Apple has control over their marketplace because they're closed source. Google instead the Google Play Store is also not very it's not putting everything on there,
1672
02:15:00.545 --> 02:15:02.085
and they allow you to install,
1673
02:15:02.465 --> 02:15:02.965
APKs.
1674
02:15:03.425 --> 02:15:05.445
That would what's nice, at least.
1675
02:15:05.745 --> 02:15:17.300
And they they do this because Google, the Android system is you can find an open source versions of that. So if they would completely close it down, they know they will lose their their people. Apple, again, because they are completely
1676
02:15:17.840 --> 02:15:19.380
proprietary, they have to disclose
1677
02:15:19.985 --> 02:15:26.485
App Store in the end, and you see a little bit what's what's what's how how we speak with this gets when these big companies at at play there.
1678
02:15:27.025 --> 02:15:35.540
1679
02:15:36.005 --> 02:15:44.265
have so many problems to solve from a technological perspective, from a marketing perspective, from a business perspective, from an hiring perspective.
1680
02:15:44.570 --> 02:15:45.630
Like, we are building
1681
02:15:46.170 --> 02:15:59.915
1682
02:16:00.535 --> 02:16:02.715
and re distributing your software
1683
02:16:03.880 --> 02:16:15.475
to make it their own. I mean, what's the problem with finished. Let me let me finish. That's okay. What's the problem with having an open source, you know, license that allows people to fork your software without any liability?
1684
02:16:16.095 --> 02:16:24.900
1685
02:16:25.440 --> 02:16:29.545
however, I will sort of somewhat readdress here. But what you're saying,
1686
02:16:29.925 --> 02:16:31.545
we agree with, recognize,
1687
02:16:32.245 --> 02:16:33.145
and are,
1688
02:16:34.325 --> 02:16:52.895
addressing in real time. Okay? This is a war. What's happening right now on planet Earth is a war, and the battles are happening on so many different fronts. And we have chosen a particular place to position ourselves in this war. And our license is one piece of many
1689
02:16:53.274 --> 02:16:55.774
as our overall strategy towards producing,
1690
02:16:56.260 --> 02:17:05.319
towards winning. Okay? And I think everyone here would define winning the same. That's why we're on this call. I don't think there's any disagreement here in the world that we are trying to produce.
1691
02:17:06.135 --> 02:17:06.635
We
1692
02:17:07.095 --> 02:17:10.314
are trying to produce that world through the mechanism
1693
02:17:10.854 --> 02:17:14.830
of a business. Right? And, again, like I was about to say,
1694
02:17:15.550 --> 02:17:30.505
1695
02:17:30.960 --> 02:17:41.805
innovate on your software if they wanted to Again, hold on. And and distribute it. I mean, that's my only problem is we need to allow everyone in the community because the community is what makes us strong.
1696
02:17:42.265 --> 02:17:46.685
Community is strong together. All of us are together strong, and we allow everyone
1697
02:17:47.020 --> 02:17:58.556
to freely distribute, modify, and share any software that we make. We can make money, guys. We can make money. We can make money by support service. If you can make money selling products, you know, Raspberry PIs,
1698
02:17:58.936 --> 02:18:04.715
you know, branded products. But we you know, I don't believe that we should be holding any software
1699
02:18:05.819 --> 02:18:13.520
that people cannot contribute to, then they cannot redistribute on their own. Imagine if the Linux kernel was like that where you couldn't
1700
02:18:13.865 --> 02:18:23.165
redistribute it on your own. That's why you can't get any closed source software inside the Linux mainstream kernel because they will not allow it. The license does not allow that.
1701
02:18:24.091 --> 02:18:29.710
Sorry. I'm full of states right now, and I'm a little drunk. So keep going. And, you know, if I hurt your feelings, I am sorry. Not sorry.
1702
02:18:30.570 --> 02:18:36.395
1703
02:18:37.016 --> 02:18:40.155
interrupted at exactly the same moment. Okay? So
1704
02:18:40.790 --> 02:18:50.170
both times when I've said we are building a business had is when you have jumped in. Because, clearly, building a business is something that you are have associated with
1705
02:18:50.615 --> 02:18:51.115
antithetical
1706
02:18:51.735 --> 02:18:55.035
to accomplishing the ends that we are all trying to achieve.
1707
02:18:55.495 --> 02:18:56.635
We do not believe
1708
02:18:57.095 --> 02:19:02.780
that business as such, building a business, is antithetical to freedom. Okay? We are essentially
1709
02:19:03.160 --> 02:19:12.105
I'm not gonna say we. I'm a capitalist. Okay? But I believe I I I use that word in the full meaning of free enterprise.
1710
02:19:12.485 --> 02:19:18.530
Okay? So we are doing something totally free. We are not free as in fosse, but we are building
1711
02:19:18.910 --> 02:19:39.940
what we want to build, what we, as a group, have decided we're passionate about building, and we are building it for all the right reasons. Right? What we are building, what we have built, and what we will build are going to help in this fight in a massive way. Right? We've already demonstrated this. Many people who are using the embassy today have already come in and said, this is unbelievable.
1712
02:19:40.400 --> 02:19:41.460
Right? Just like,
1713
02:19:42.515 --> 02:20:16.285
I'm sorry, Taylor was talking about earlier. The feedback from the from the community, from our customers has been the this the fire that has kept us going. We're not making a lot of money. Are you kidding? We sell a Raspberry Pi in a box around the world. Like, this is we're not talking about, you know, Apple here. We're talking about paying the bills. We're talking about being able to keep the wheels turning while we fight for the future we're trying to build. And there are multiple ways to do that. You can do that by building a business, or you can do that by accepting donations. And if you're building a business, there's a 100 different ways that you can monetize.
1714
02:20:16.665 --> 02:20:19.085
And so we have approached this holistically,
1715
02:20:19.785 --> 02:20:22.045
rationally, and with great intent,
1716
02:20:23.065 --> 02:20:24.045
to accomplish
1717
02:20:24.910 --> 02:20:50.830
our goals of upending, destroying the centralized, trusted, custodial, surveillance, bullshit computing model that dominates Earth today. The fact that we have chosen to fight that fight as a business, and you or others may have chosen to fight that fight as a a foundation that accepts donations, We're all fighting for the same future here. And I understand that your opinion is that some of our strategic choices,
1718
02:20:51.210 --> 02:20:52.590
especially around licensing,
1719
02:20:53.455 --> 02:21:09.840
are going to come back and bite us. But what I'm saying is that we are very aware of the choices that we have made and that we are open minded, not as in if you convince us, we will do it, but we are extremely agile. If the day ever comes
1720
02:21:10.205 --> 02:21:14.064
when it is to our and the world's as we see it benefit
1721
02:21:14.445 --> 02:21:19.345
for us to change our license, we will change our license. But as it exists today,
1722
02:21:19.740 --> 02:21:20.240
today,
1723
02:21:20.940 --> 02:21:22.640
we believe that our license
1724
02:21:22.940 --> 02:21:24.800
affords us the best opportunity
1725
02:21:25.580 --> 02:21:27.280
to contribute to the fight.
1726
02:21:27.705 --> 02:21:34.825
We really believe that. And if if any of you want to sidebar this afterwards and say, hey, Matt. Here's
1727
02:21:35.270 --> 02:21:37.610
if you change your license to GPL,
1728
02:21:38.150 --> 02:21:40.091
here's why it's gonna make you better
1729
02:21:40.471 --> 02:21:40.971
today,
1730
02:21:41.830 --> 02:21:52.891
then we'll do it. But we haven't heard that argument. Every argument that we've heard is always about the future. It's always about the distant future. It's like, look. If you don't change your license right now, here's what's gonna eventually
1731
02:21:53.431 --> 02:21:57.050
happen to you. And I'm saying there's a lot of time between now and eventually.
1732
02:21:58.230 --> 02:21:59.370
1733
02:22:00.865 --> 02:22:04.165
first of all, I I like again, I feel kinda bad.
1734
02:22:04.944 --> 02:22:08.085
Not not because, like, we're we're shitting on you, but,
1735
02:22:08.649 --> 02:22:13.149
just because, like, I think you're you're standing up there kind of alone afraid,
1736
02:22:14.810 --> 02:22:15.550
on this
1737
02:22:17.345 --> 02:22:18.885
on this, you know,
1738
02:22:19.345 --> 02:22:25.445
not false license, and that's a I'll say this. I at least applaud your your ability to, like,
1739
02:22:26.040 --> 02:22:31.420
back your you've, like, obviously thought about this a lot to the point where you can back it up. So that's what I'll say to that.
1740
02:22:32.840 --> 02:22:33.640
I think that,
1741
02:22:34.885 --> 02:22:41.785
I think as a whole like, as long as you I just don't wanna be able to get, like, super butthurt while we're in the conversation,
1742
02:22:42.551 --> 02:22:45.610
because I I think as people get heated, I don't think it's a good,
1743
02:22:47.110 --> 02:22:49.690
a good way to articulate your feelings. But,
1744
02:22:50.710 --> 02:22:51.690
I I do
1745
02:22:52.135 --> 02:22:54.795
I do want thoughts on a couple things.
1746
02:22:56.375 --> 02:22:57.194
He said,
1747
02:22:58.215 --> 02:23:03.290
I don't know. He said code is code equals free speech. Kito, you wanna take it from there?
1748
02:23:04.710 --> 02:23:12.615
1749
02:23:15.155 --> 02:23:24.489
Basically, what what they did, Paul Zimmerman did is print out the code of PGP and send it with a physical person on an airplane
1750
02:23:24.869 --> 02:23:32.274
to Europe because it was illegal to export cryptography from United States as code, so he spotted it as free speech.
1751
02:23:33.055 --> 02:23:36.675
And I think this is basically where
1752
02:23:39.681 --> 02:23:40.181
cryptography
1753
02:23:40.800 --> 02:23:43.860
and and open source cryptography comes from.
1754
02:23:46.375 --> 02:23:46.875
In
1755
02:23:47.575 --> 02:23:50.555
98, 99, I was wearing a DCSS
1756
02:23:50.855 --> 02:23:55.035
T shirt with DVD encryption keys in the street just because
1757
02:23:55.851 --> 02:23:57.311
it meant fuck you,
1758
02:23:58.490 --> 02:24:00.170
proprietary code, and,
1759
02:24:01.770 --> 02:24:05.556
open source is the way to go, and I I still believe in that.
1760
02:24:06.176 --> 02:24:08.035
And, yeah, I I mean,
1761
02:24:08.415 --> 02:24:08.915
if
1762
02:24:09.375 --> 02:24:15.960
closing your source code is the only business model you have, you should really reconsider the way you do your business.
1763
02:24:17.620 --> 02:24:18.280
1764
02:24:19.354 --> 02:24:22.654
yeah, I I would say, I've I've seen some good comments in here,
1765
02:24:24.314 --> 02:24:25.774
that, you know,
1766
02:24:26.540 --> 02:24:31.520
I think it's really easy. I think I think this is where people's, like, fear, right, and paranoia come in, Matt.
1767
02:24:32.540 --> 02:24:33.040
When,
1768
02:24:33.676 --> 02:24:35.216
I mean, Bitcoin and
1769
02:24:35.995 --> 02:24:36.495
cryptography
1770
02:24:37.115 --> 02:24:47.391
and privacy and all those things, right, I mean, most of those things, like, are not about the here and now. I mean, even running the sovereign apps. Right? Like, if I run Bitwarden
1771
02:24:47.851 --> 02:24:48.830
on their server,
1772
02:24:49.135 --> 02:25:04.650
like, nothing has happened. They've had haven't had any leaks yet today. Right? But what do we wanna preach to people? Right? Run that software yourself. Right? Because what if it does get leaked? Right? Like, all of our models I mean, like, particularly anything with where you're running something sovereign. Right?
1773
02:25:05.404 --> 02:25:09.585
I wouldn't say every model that's here because I think just running a core node is different. But,
1774
02:25:10.204 --> 02:25:17.160
when you're talking about, like, hey. Like, do this because one day, if this happens, you're screwed. Right? So,
1775
02:25:18.500 --> 02:25:20.601
when that paranoia sets in,
1776
02:25:20.995 --> 02:25:27.415
right, that's, like, where that I mean, it's a good mindset to have. It's a good thing to be in that mindset. Right? But
1777
02:25:28.340 --> 02:25:31.319
you gotta understand where all these people are sitting here going,
1778
02:25:31.779 --> 02:25:43.305
well, you said that your license works now, but in the future, we're gonna change it. And, like, I'm sure that if we had Umbrella appear, they would probably be saying the same thing. Right? Because it's a lot easier to,
1779
02:25:44.400 --> 02:25:53.700
to appeal to, like, everybody. I mean, like, yeah. No. We'll totally change it one day. And, like, it's like, unless there's, like, some sort of, like, part new license, like, I think,
1780
02:25:55.694 --> 02:25:56.755
was talking about with,
1781
02:25:57.215 --> 02:26:02.631
where hey. And for, like, the and the ops like, the business model. Right? Like, 4 years,
1782
02:26:03.570 --> 02:26:07.511
and the business license. In 4 years, like, we're gonna be open source. Right?
1783
02:26:08.745 --> 02:26:13.325
That's that's basically what you're trying to say that you would do if it worked in your favor.
1784
02:26:13.945 --> 02:26:17.645
But a lot of people have been saying, and, I mean, it's a good point, is that,
1785
02:26:18.240 --> 02:26:34.265
yeah, it's it's totally easy. Like, once if you got if if Embassy and Star 9 blows up and becomes the next Apple, like, are you really going to, like, be like, oh, yeah. No. We'll totally now that we're really big, we'll totally change our our license. And be like, no. We're like proprietary. We need to protect our stuff now because
1786
02:26:34.801 --> 02:26:43.860
we don't want some other, like, competitor to just come in and just take what we have. That would be the mindset. Right? That would be capitalist mindset. And I and I'm a capitalist. I think,
1787
02:26:44.545 --> 02:26:54.770
like, just to touch on that really fast, I don't think that anyone here should just be like, hey. I'm just gonna, like, donate my time. And, like, you need something to be able to pay for the time that you put into a project.
1788
02:26:55.471 --> 02:26:58.131
Having some sort of, like, revenue and business model.
1789
02:26:59.895 --> 02:27:10.869
Maybe whether it's, like, to take on VCs or whether it's to just support yourself, you need to have some sort of business model because that's otherwise, like, relying on donations is is not sustainable
1790
02:27:11.250 --> 02:27:11.750
whatsoever.
1791
02:27:13.090 --> 02:27:23.555
But, yeah, I think that's, like, the big question that I've seen probably 7 or 8 times in the chat just kinda sitting here about, like, oh, yeah. Well, in the future, you're gonna change it. But when you have all that power in the future,
1792
02:27:24.061 --> 02:27:37.445
1793
02:27:37.825 --> 02:27:38.725
very much
1794
02:27:39.265 --> 02:27:40.165
believe in trustlessness.
1795
02:27:40.740 --> 02:27:44.040
And so long as we have any control over our code whatsoever,
1796
02:27:44.660 --> 02:27:47.720
there is a degree of trust in us. If not today,
1797
02:27:48.100 --> 02:27:48.600
then,
1798
02:27:49.145 --> 02:27:53.405
you know, tomorrow as in you're not insured against us necessarily.
1799
02:27:53.785 --> 02:27:57.779
Right? Like, we could we could choose to become evil, for instance,
1800
02:27:58.399 --> 02:27:59.779
as as Google did.
1801
02:28:00.960 --> 02:28:01.779
But, like,
1802
02:28:03.226 --> 02:28:27.955
we are one participant in the marketplace too. Right? Like, this is not me. I'm not about to make an argument for why it's okay that we become evil. But what I'm saying is that the arguments being made towards me right now are that if we end up building something amazing and if everyone is using it and if we become evil, then we'll cause damage to the world. So one, there's a few ifs in that in that chain there. But 2,
1803
02:28:28.631 --> 02:28:29.610
it it ignores,
1804
02:28:30.230 --> 02:28:32.570
the rest of the world. Right? Like,
1805
02:28:33.190 --> 02:28:33.690
you
1806
02:28:34.311 --> 02:28:36.250
know, we talked earlier about competition
1807
02:28:36.825 --> 02:28:42.685
being an essential ingredient to building better software and more open systems and and everything, and I and I agree.
1808
02:28:43.305 --> 02:28:44.845
While we are doing something
1809
02:28:45.305 --> 02:28:45.805
complex,
1810
02:28:47.390 --> 02:28:54.689
we are not doing something impossible, clearly. Right? Like, I I would bet that many people who are on this call, if so determined to,
1811
02:28:55.550 --> 02:29:07.710
could, you know, build a more of a kinda embassy style operating system than a Bitcoin full node. Like, if you wanted to broaden your computing platforms, anyone can do it. And we would look forward to that competition.
1812
02:29:08.090 --> 02:29:13.950
We support all the products now, and we will continue to do so even if you come directly at us,
1813
02:29:14.365 --> 02:29:17.104
which, you know, maybe maybe will happen, maybe it won't.
1814
02:29:18.125 --> 02:29:28.190
But that's what keeps us honest. And, you know, I don't want to trust ourselves either. Right? That's where the licensing comes in. It's like once you release something with an MIT license,
1815
02:29:28.570 --> 02:29:34.955
you can't sort of go back and undo it. Right? At the code at that point in time is then free to use by anyone,
1816
02:29:35.815 --> 02:29:36.555
on earth.
1817
02:29:36.880 --> 02:29:45.939
And I want that insurance policy for myself. Like, there will come a day when I say, look, there's too much temptation. There's too much
1818
02:29:47.375 --> 02:29:49.795
too much attack vectors, whatever.
1819
02:29:50.255 --> 02:29:54.675
We need to protect the code. We need to protect the future. We need to think beyond
1820
02:29:55.135 --> 02:29:55.795
the business.
1821
02:29:56.550 --> 02:30:04.570
1822
02:30:06.035 --> 02:30:07.716
1823
02:30:08.516 --> 02:30:11.176
oh, well no. No. No. What I mean is that
1824
02:30:11.556 --> 02:30:14.455
if we release code with an MIT license,
1825
02:30:14.920 --> 02:30:22.380
right, then we could fork it and put a proprietary license on it. What I'm saying is that the code that has the MIT license on it can never
1826
02:30:23.345 --> 02:30:26.005
be, closed up again. Right?
1827
02:30:27.345 --> 02:30:27.585
Like
1828
02:30:28.545 --> 02:30:34.040
1829
02:30:34.520 --> 02:30:41.580
1830
02:30:42.105 --> 02:30:54.600
1831
02:30:54.900 --> 02:30:57.640
1832
02:30:58.485 --> 02:31:02.745
a snapshot of Embassy OS, and this has come up multiple times internally,
1833
02:31:03.125 --> 02:31:06.505
where we were like, alright. Well, why don't we just release like,
1834
02:31:06.880 --> 02:31:12.100
we go back, like, you know, 4 versions of Embassy OS and just let this sort of trailing,
1835
02:31:13.120 --> 02:31:13.620
opens,
1836
02:31:14.000 --> 02:31:17.096
faucing of our previous releases. That way,
1837
02:31:17.955 --> 02:31:20.755
at no point in time is there not a sort of,
1838
02:31:22.275 --> 02:31:31.500
a a a fauc instance of the technology. It's just not the cutting edge. It's just not the tip of the of the spear. That has come up multiple times, and is something that we have considered.
1839
02:31:33.515 --> 02:31:44.690
1840
02:31:46.670 --> 02:31:53.075
the ability to take the things that you've created and and choose to put your own license on them is definitely a good thing. I don't think,
1841
02:31:53.635 --> 02:31:54.695
non false licenses
1842
02:31:55.875 --> 02:32:00.260
are inherently bad. I think a lot of net good can come from them. I don't,
1843
02:32:01.039 --> 02:32:03.619
necessarily believe that, you know, by
1844
02:32:04.159 --> 02:32:09.226
choosing something else, it's necessarily a net negative. And and like Matt said, you know, in a sense,
1845
02:32:09.686 --> 02:32:10.186
1846
02:32:11.045 --> 02:32:11.545
is
1847
02:32:12.405 --> 02:32:17.145
1848
02:32:17.641 --> 02:32:24.540
is almost decentralized in and of itself, like, by creating companies and by creating, you know, FOSS, fully open source projects,
1849
02:32:25.256 --> 02:32:27.596
there's a whole lot of different, like,
1850
02:32:28.056 --> 02:32:30.075
vectors we can take to sort of
1851
02:32:30.936 --> 02:32:34.075
expand the Bitcoin group of people in the community.
1852
02:32:34.700 --> 02:32:39.120
I think a lot of people are comfortable with companies and that could be an avenue for,
1853
02:32:39.660 --> 02:32:56.550
you know, getting Bitcoin and obviously it's been happening getting Bitcoin into sort of the VC funded world and a whole lot of other worlds that are within like legacy financial institutions and just sort of continue creeping forward and taking over from that angle, as well as the free open source angle, as well as just the community people
1854
02:32:56.936 --> 02:33:05.115
running and installing wallets on their phone that might not even, you know, be running their own note. There are so many angles that you can take to expand,
1855
02:33:06.159 --> 02:33:06.659
you
1856
02:33:07.359 --> 02:33:15.380
know, individual and, like, taking control of your own finances that I don't necessarily think it's limited to just sort of the FOSS software projects.
1857
02:33:16.024 --> 02:33:17.965
1858
02:33:18.425 --> 02:33:24.205
reasons why people would have it. I mean, and I keep saying it, like, sounds like Start9, like, had this, like, super long,
1859
02:33:24.580 --> 02:33:31.720
you know, conversation about it. And, I mean, I'm gonna I'm going to appeal to authority and just say that was true, but, like,
1860
02:33:32.340 --> 02:33:34.120
because I'm sure it was. But,
1861
02:33:35.225 --> 02:33:44.619
like, my my whole thing is why. Like, what like, what's the intent? Why did you decide to, you know, go closed source? And it's or not closed source, but restrictive.
1862
02:33:44.920 --> 02:33:49.979
Right? And the majority of time from what I've heard and what I would assume and I've seen from
1863
02:33:50.439 --> 02:34:21.200
Umbrell as well is that, oh, well, like, we don't want our competition to get a leg up to, like, come and just be able to take what we got and then just get this jump start. Or, like, we don't want people who took a derivative from my source code and then made it better. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It's just competition. Right? Like, at the end of the day, it's competition. Because if someone just forked it and then had the exact same release and then they just kept to you, say that I forked my node and I called it your node. Right? And then every release that you had, I just,
1864
02:34:21.740 --> 02:34:47.354
like, I just, took from upstream, and then I pushed the the same release, and I didn't change anything unique. No one is going to go to me. No one is going to go to the exact same product, and then they can go as soon as it gets exposed. Right? Like, maybe I'll get a few suckers that would buy it. Right? But I'm really just scamming people because I've provided nothing new. Right? Nothing whatsoever new. Now the moment that I started developing and providing new things or doing things different and I've had a now I have
1865
02:34:48.215 --> 02:34:50.314
a a more unique product, right,
1866
02:34:50.774 --> 02:35:01.979
at that point, like, we're different. Right? Like, so the derivatives and the work that, like, I've put in would get paid. And if, like, if that's not something that we can handle, right, something that,
1867
02:35:04.025 --> 02:35:10.270
as a as a software developer, if we're like, oh, well, like, I I don't want anybody to ever touch what I'm doing. Right?
1868
02:35:11.210 --> 02:35:19.595
Then, like, you like, you're just not you're too scared about I'm a like, I'm not using you, Taylor, as an example. Just like you're not too you're you're too scared to, like, get,
1869
02:35:20.555 --> 02:35:26.975
you know, to have competition. And who cares? Like, who cares? No one's gonna do your code better than you.
1870
02:35:27.330 --> 02:35:41.705
No one's going to steal your user base out of nowhere. Like, if you're that worried about a user base, like, that means that you don't you don't you know that you don't give a good enough product, whether it's support, whether it's software, whether it's whatever. If you're worried that someone is just gonna up and leave tomorrow
1871
02:35:42.085 --> 02:35:46.880
because, and, like, go to a forked version of you, then you are, like,
1872
02:35:47.260 --> 02:35:48.239
sorely mistaken.
1873
02:35:48.619 --> 02:35:52.000
Like, it has nothing to do with that. You, like, your
1874
02:35:52.715 --> 02:35:54.414
your customers and your users,
1875
02:35:54.795 --> 02:35:56.095
right, are directly
1876
02:35:56.635 --> 02:36:05.630
1877
02:36:05.931 --> 02:36:11.534
intellectual property rights and go into some sort of revenue sharing agreement where the foundation that it was based on
1878
02:36:11.835 --> 02:36:14.814
would be would have benefited. And I think my my my
1879
02:36:15.435 --> 02:36:17.854
situation in small software situations,
1880
02:36:18.170 --> 02:36:24.090
1881
02:36:24.810 --> 02:36:42.640
1882
02:36:43.260 --> 02:36:44.080
and designs.
1883
02:36:44.465 --> 02:36:48.165
1884
02:36:48.545 --> 02:36:53.845
your, intellectual property. Like, I I get it. But here here's, like, the difference. Right? Let's say,
1885
02:36:54.850 --> 02:36:55.909
like, say that,
1886
02:36:56.850 --> 02:37:01.430
Apple or Google decides to take Ronin Dojo and fork it.
1887
02:37:02.034 --> 02:37:05.095
Like, I have AGPL, so you know what they need to do. It needs to be AGPL.
1888
02:37:05.555 --> 02:37:17.490
So now, yes, is it gonna get bigger? Are people gonna take it? Are they gonna work on it? Are they gonna do all this stuff? Yeah. And that's cool. But guess what? It's still open source, which is something that it would not have been. Yes. Google Dojo. Thank you, moms.
1889
02:37:19.064 --> 02:37:21.485
It would have not have been, right, had,
1890
02:37:21.865 --> 02:37:37.410
you know, pretend even, like, MIT, they could've closed it up or whether whether or not someone could just take it. Like, think just think about it from that perspective too. And who like, honestly, like, I don't care if someone makes some money off of, like, the base code that I wrote. Right? Like, that's
1891
02:37:37.905 --> 02:37:46.085
that's not about it. Like, if you're not able to, like, sustain because like, sustain your work, it's not about fairness. Right? It's about
1892
02:37:46.480 --> 02:37:50.980
the the openness and fairness of the and the freedom that your code provides.
1893
02:37:51.760 --> 02:37:52.960
1894
02:37:54.485 --> 02:37:56.265
1895
02:37:57.125 --> 02:38:04.540
1896
02:38:04.920 --> 02:38:09.820
choice to how they wanted to implement it and do that in the first place. And that's why me, personally,
1897
02:38:10.306 --> 02:38:16.245
I I like I I don't like the license I chose. It was I misunderstood distribution versus, like, production use, but,
1898
02:38:16.945 --> 02:38:18.085
I think that
1899
02:38:18.891 --> 02:38:43.551
what I was looking for is more of a middle ground where, you know, maybe I have access to do what I want for a year or 2 or something, and then, you know, it goes fully open because I want it be. Like, at some point, if the project ended for whatever reason, not saying it is, I'm absolutely planning on continuing it for as long as possible. But, yeah, or or, I mean, Matt's, like, bus example. Right? Like, if something happens, I don't want the project to totally die. But at the same time, I think, there there's
1900
02:38:43.915 --> 02:38:45.774
reasons companies don't want to
1901
02:38:46.154 --> 02:39:04.535
cut off certain revenue models. And I think by keeping those revenue models open, you can still do very good things because that allows you to start it it allows you to generate revenue. It allows you to employ people and grow the, like, overall economy and then start getting things like marketing budgets that let you more broadly share
1902
02:39:04.915 --> 02:39:22.545
the the products that your company is creating in a way that, you know, some FOSS projects are a little bit more limited in. And all I'm saying is that I think there's different perspectives and it's not necessarily 100% good or 100% bad. And in my case, what I'm looking for most, I think, is sort of some middle ground, which isn't very well defined.
1903
02:39:23.005 --> 02:39:34.040
There's only a handful of licenses out there that even allow it, and that's why I kinda wanna start looking into that more and and see what options are out there to sort of find that middle ground where you don't have to be fully closed source,
1904
02:39:34.740 --> 02:39:35.641
but you can
1905
02:39:36.020 --> 02:39:38.645
don't have to, like, close off some of the revenue models that,
1906
02:39:39.604 --> 02:39:40.505
you might have
1907
02:39:41.685 --> 02:39:46.024
some attack vectors sort of against base if you want the fully open source model.
1908
02:39:47.890 --> 02:39:52.210
But I'm but, again, again and maybe circling all the way back to,
1909
02:39:52.690 --> 02:40:00.694
what what Matt was saying about Taproot and stuff. You know? Things like Bitcoin must be false. Absolutely. 100%. They have to be because,
1910
02:40:01.795 --> 02:40:02.774
it it is
1911
02:40:03.311 --> 02:40:20.050
part of that project. Like, it to become the decentralized foundation, like, layer for money, it's got to be open. It has to be open. It wouldn't work if it wasn't because then then you would have people that were sort of in control of it, and I I think it's a great reason Satoshi left and a lot of other things have happened,
1912
02:40:20.530 --> 02:40:27.510
over the history of Bitcoin that have allowed it to be sort of as decentralized as possible, which gives it a very unique advantage
1913
02:40:28.045 --> 02:40:38.780
over, like, every other shitcoin out there that, you know, people it's centralized. They're pre mined. They, like, you know, are dishonest in their marketing. Like, we don't want that, and we don't wanna be part of that.
1914
02:40:41.000 --> 02:40:45.895
1915
02:40:47.495 --> 02:40:48.715
their their reasons.
1916
02:40:49.415 --> 02:40:53.354
And that's why, like, I pointed it out. And I said, like, it depends on what your reason is,
1917
02:40:54.400 --> 02:41:03.285
and whether you can stand on 2 legs. And, like, that that was the other reason why I wanted to have all of this, knowing that not everybody has an open source license. Because,
1918
02:41:03.825 --> 02:41:15.580
you know, I think there there's something to say about having that, like, 1 on 1 or, like, me or, like, you know, Matt Hill sitting there dying on the hill of closed source not closed source, but, you know, restrictive,
1919
02:41:16.040 --> 02:41:19.205
license and, you know, being able to stand up and defend it.
1920
02:41:19.686 --> 02:41:32.200
But it's, like, one thing to be on Twitter or, like, what Telegram or wherever you're at, and you're just like, oh, yeah. Well, that's the choice that I made. And then it kinda ends there. Like, having a long form discussion is, like, the only way that people can really understand.
1921
02:41:32.580 --> 02:41:35.480
And, you know, for me, like, as far as, like,
1922
02:41:36.314 --> 02:41:39.614
you know, I I want the code to live on, and I think, everyone's
1923
02:41:40.234 --> 02:41:43.935
everyone's thought process and it says something too about
1924
02:41:45.270 --> 02:41:55.175
that if everyone if, like, both both of you, right, who are who've been defending it, defending, the restrictive license have said, well, one day I wanna make it open source.
1925
02:41:55.555 --> 02:42:10.680
Right? One day I would love to have it be, like, truly open source and whatever. One day that's gonna come. Right? But, like, that really just it it says that you should do it, but you have these hesitations for whatever reason. And and you've laid out different reasons, and that's fine.
1926
02:42:11.274 --> 02:42:15.535
And I know Matt laid out reasons, and that's fine. But, like, you gotta ask yourself, like,
1927
02:42:16.075 --> 02:42:16.575
okay.
1928
02:42:17.195 --> 02:42:27.750
Like, can I do this the way that I one day I want to? Right? Because you're gonna be in that same spot in 5 years. You're gonna be right back to where you were with probably
1929
02:42:28.226 --> 02:42:32.165
more problems because your business is bigger. And then you're gonna go, well,
1930
02:42:32.785 --> 02:42:50.806
I don't know. I don't know if I should go open source. I know I said I would one day, but not today. It's gonna be tomorrow. Like, you know that you want to because you've said it multiple times right now. Whether that's true or not, if you're lying to yourself, that's okay. But, like, hey. You you've you know that, like, the code needs to live on. You know that it it appeals to
1931
02:42:51.266 --> 02:42:51.766
the,
1932
02:42:52.705 --> 02:42:54.485
the core ethos of Bitcoin
1933
02:42:55.186 --> 02:42:57.880
and, like, the decentralized nature of everything.
1934
02:42:58.181 --> 02:42:58.681
Right?
1935
02:42:59.061 --> 02:43:00.601
But you have to,
1936
02:43:01.141 --> 02:43:04.425
you have to really, like, accept that. Accept that, like, you're,
1937
02:43:05.045 --> 02:43:06.984
like, continuing to push it to the future
1938
02:43:07.364 --> 02:43:09.625
isn't isn't necessarily going to change anything.
1939
02:43:10.005 --> 02:43:10.505
And,
1940
02:43:11.351 --> 02:43:15.851
you know, that it's just something to think on. I'm not sitting here saying, like, you know, you're wrong or whatever.
1941
02:43:17.030 --> 02:43:18.650
I think everyone has their reasons.
1942
02:43:19.351 --> 02:43:20.650
I personally just disagree.
1943
02:43:22.375 --> 02:43:33.200
I disagree with the idea of of closing my stuff down because I I don't really care. Like, if my code got forked and more people use it, then that's that's fucking cool, then I can retire happy.
1944
02:43:34.301 --> 02:43:34.801
But
1945
02:43:35.655 --> 02:43:38.314
1946
02:43:38.694 --> 02:43:39.194
do
1947
02:43:39.655 --> 02:43:41.515
any of the speakers believe
1948
02:43:42.511 --> 02:43:54.436
any IP should exist at all? I don't believe any IP should exist at all. I I think it's a construct like like said in the chart. Good. Good. Good. And and it should should not exist.
1949
02:43:55.136 --> 02:43:56.755
It's just totally stupid.
1950
02:43:59.569 --> 02:44:03.989
1951
02:44:04.369 --> 02:44:07.510
At least it's a compromise that I can see value in. For example,
1952
02:44:07.855 --> 02:44:14.596
Linux, as far as I tried to read up on the history. In the beginning, Linux was saying, yeah. It's just okay. But then were people trying to
1953
02:44:15.220 --> 02:44:20.520
give false attention under that name to to so so there was even then the Linux Foundation taking this trademark,
1954
02:44:20.899 --> 02:44:22.760
and this is Linux is a trademark.
1955
02:44:25.824 --> 02:44:28.484
They make even money to some certain degree,
1956
02:44:28.944 --> 02:44:32.050
at least to have some trademarking. But the code itself to have
1957
02:44:32.530 --> 02:44:33.030
property,
1958
02:44:33.410 --> 02:44:33.910
IP,
1959
02:44:34.290 --> 02:44:38.550
intellectual property on code and stuff, yeah, that's also a very sketchy thing.
1960
02:44:42.935 --> 02:44:54.190
1961
02:44:55.610 --> 02:44:58.830
how users decide, you know, which nodes they wanna run as well.
1962
02:44:59.846 --> 02:45:15.149
1963
02:45:15.636 --> 02:45:30.725
But, of course, people, the freedom to choose, and it's also then let the market decide a little bit. So make it easy for people to to switch projects, maybe take their blockchain with take their channels with them, all those those kind of things, and additional apps maybe that have data. There's also the other app on the other
1964
02:45:31.125 --> 02:45:33.604
project that can can support or something. So,
1965
02:45:34.165 --> 02:45:37.944
just as an example, Raspi bullets introduced with the latest version 1.7,
1966
02:45:38.641 --> 02:45:41.141
the migration features so that you can turn,
1967
02:45:41.520 --> 02:45:42.900
a my node or an Umbrel
1968
02:45:43.280 --> 02:45:47.095
into a So not everything, the additional app apps not,
1969
02:45:47.654 --> 02:45:48.455
but the,
1970
02:45:48.935 --> 02:45:53.274
block you can reuse the blockchain, and you can take your channels, your LND channel
1971
02:45:54.135 --> 02:46:04.635
to your, Respiblitz LND then. This was for me after having this discussion with Umbrel on Twitter and stuff, and and, it was was for me at least the the the very important to
1972
02:46:05.035 --> 02:46:13.801
offer the option to people if they wanna change to make it easier to change and to reduce even this lock in situation. And I even think it's a service to to other projects
1973
02:46:14.261 --> 02:46:29.404
to so so so they can say, look. We're not completely locked in. You can't migrate here. We we have this option for you available at at at at this recent version and stuff. So I just wanted to ask. We have MyNode in in the room. How do you feel about the rest of it's offering a migration?
1974
02:46:29.784 --> 02:46:35.580
Would you would you build it even the other way around so that people can migrate from Respirates to my note? How do you feel about it?
1975
02:46:37.800 --> 02:47:20.984
1976
02:47:21.364 --> 02:47:33.035
1977
02:47:33.495 --> 02:47:34.476
which I still
1978
02:47:34.855 --> 02:47:38.075
expect us to have even though the mempools keep clearing,
1979
02:47:39.220 --> 02:47:48.120
It could get very expensive for people to have to close lightning channels in migration. So it to be able to to to be able to pull your channels through a different project,
1980
02:47:48.755 --> 02:47:55.415
to a different implementation is extremely important because that could be a major lock in cost. Right? That could end up costing people,
1981
02:47:56.030 --> 02:47:59.729
you know, 100 of dollars, if not 1,000 of dollars to, transition.
1982
02:48:00.990 --> 02:48:04.130
1983
02:48:05.595 --> 02:48:08.175
between the same kind of lightning notes.
1984
02:48:08.715 --> 02:48:09.215
The
1985
02:48:09.915 --> 02:48:13.215
people even do want to migrate between different
1986
02:48:13.630 --> 02:48:19.569
lightning implementations, which is not currently possible, but even that should be something which is available for people.
1987
02:48:21.470 --> 02:48:22.930
Definitely, blockchain is,
1988
02:48:23.355 --> 02:48:27.055
you know, you can download it anytime, but you cannot open channels for free.
1989
02:48:28.875 --> 02:48:57.310
1990
02:48:58.405 --> 02:48:59.145
I don't know.
1991
02:48:59.525 --> 02:49:06.425
This is a totally different top topic, but it would be awesome if there were, like, better ways in the future to recover lightning channels.
1992
02:49:07.160 --> 02:49:12.460
Because, yeah, my it's a migration problem, but, the exact same problem is also just a, you know,
1993
02:49:13.000 --> 02:49:15.100
data corruption problem and having to restore
1994
02:49:15.545 --> 02:49:32.155
your Lightning node somewhere else incurs the exact same set of costs, which, like, in the future, I think will be far higher than it is today. I mean, even, you know, a couple months ago, it would have been pretty extreme to reopen, you know, at 10 channels, 15 channels, whatever people have that can definitely be, an expensive
1995
02:49:32.936 --> 02:49:34.315
thing to have happen to them.
1996
02:49:34.936 --> 02:49:37.035
1997
02:49:37.490 --> 02:49:45.350
building, like, for Umbrel, it's working already and with, like, minor experimental as well. I mean, it's just a script, you know, that
1998
02:49:46.225 --> 02:49:49.524
you can take the data, the lnd channel database,
1999
02:49:49.904 --> 02:49:53.400
and the actual wallet file and just, you know, copy it over
2000
02:49:53.960 --> 02:50:08.535
because we're running the same architecture even you know, it's it's quite the same software l and d, so it it's portable like that. So this is not about, like, backup and restore kind of thing. This is about, changing the software all around l and d.
2001
02:50:09.715 --> 02:50:19.510
2002
02:50:20.850 --> 02:50:27.386
2003
02:50:27.846 --> 02:50:41.335
2004
02:50:42.675 --> 02:50:45.175
2005
02:50:46.035 --> 02:50:46.775
we can't.
2006
02:50:47.890 --> 02:50:53.270
I'm just kidding. What? Absence joke. Never mind. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
2007
02:50:53.890 --> 02:50:56.229
You're alive. You can. I swear to god.
2008
02:50:56.645 --> 02:50:58.265
My bad. I'm just I'm just
2009
02:50:58.565 --> 02:50:59.465
messing you today.
2010
02:51:00.885 --> 02:51:03.465
I I think as the only non lightning,
2011
02:51:05.080 --> 02:51:06.540
2012
02:51:06.920 --> 02:51:07.819
2013
02:51:08.120 --> 02:51:09.180
I I also,
2014
02:51:10.359 --> 02:51:13.020
we've been working on migration as well,
2015
02:51:13.495 --> 02:51:14.935
from Umbro and,
2016
02:51:15.415 --> 02:51:17.114
and myNode for our users.
2017
02:51:18.215 --> 02:51:23.320
Particularly, I mean, we have a obviously, we support Dojo. We have a ton of people that want to,
2018
02:51:24.100 --> 02:51:25.240
they want a dedicated
2019
02:51:25.700 --> 02:51:33.296
device for their Dojo. So we get that is something that, like, has been working on, and, he's actually finished. He just we just need testers.
2020
02:51:33.835 --> 02:51:34.075
So,
2021
02:51:35.195 --> 02:51:38.016
I did spin up a a last pilot, so
2022
02:51:38.395 --> 02:51:39.775
so shout out to you guys.
2023
02:51:40.560 --> 02:51:42.580
I'll be testing that when I come back, but
2024
02:51:44.640 --> 02:51:51.096
I think we should be having that. I think that it should be something easy. I mean, like, the users have already already,
2025
02:51:51.476 --> 02:51:53.495
you know, downloaded and verified the blockchain.
2026
02:51:53.796 --> 02:51:54.296
So,
2027
02:51:55.075 --> 02:51:58.775
having it easy to transport that IBD is, is
2028
02:51:59.090 --> 02:52:01.430
definitely a nice thing to have for all the users.
2029
02:52:01.890 --> 02:52:04.949
But something tells me that Umbro probably won't do that,
2030
02:52:06.125 --> 02:52:07.905
but that's okay. It's cool.
2031
02:52:09.485 --> 02:52:12.785
I do wanna talk about the hardware differences though since, many
2032
02:52:13.300 --> 02:52:22.439
what everybody is r pi 4 except for me and I mean, we support r pi 4, but me and, Keter Miner, we're the only ones that our main
2033
02:52:22.886 --> 02:52:25.306
flagship is not a Raspberry Pi.
2034
02:52:25.766 --> 02:52:26.266
So
2035
02:52:26.886 --> 02:52:28.186
hardware trade offs.
2036
02:52:31.399 --> 02:52:32.300
2037
02:52:33.319 --> 02:52:36.220
2038
02:52:37.000 --> 02:52:38.060
2039
02:52:38.505 --> 02:52:39.484
The the
2040
02:52:39.944 --> 02:52:46.364
Raspberry Pi doesn't have an open source firmware, and it runs everything on top of a Microsoft owned hypervisor.
2041
02:52:47.510 --> 02:52:50.970
That's one reason we don't use Raspberry Pi.
2042
02:52:51.270 --> 02:52:54.010
The other one is, historically, when we started,
2043
02:52:54.676 --> 02:52:57.815
the Raspberry Pi was underpowered, and the
2044
02:52:58.275 --> 02:52:59.895
the rock 64 board
2045
02:53:00.436 --> 02:53:06.760
we have chosen to build our devices was much more powerful than the Raspberry Pi had more memory and more CPU.
2046
02:53:10.315 --> 02:53:14.495
2047
02:53:15.195 --> 02:53:19.980
like, everyone talks about the RAM. You know, like, oh, there's a 8 gig RAM on Raspberry Pi now.
2048
02:53:20.540 --> 02:53:25.921
It's like, that's not the, like I don't know. That's that's my I've noticed better speed, better,
2049
02:53:26.940 --> 02:53:27.440
performance
2050
02:53:28.245 --> 02:53:28.905
with the,
2051
02:53:29.524 --> 02:53:30.265
6 CPU.
2052
02:53:30.885 --> 02:53:31.385
Right?
2053
02:53:31.925 --> 02:53:33.465
Then then what,
2054
02:53:34.405 --> 02:53:36.330
I think it's 6. Well, then what,
2055
02:53:36.811 --> 02:53:44.590
what's called then what the Raspberry Pi 4 has. I mean, it works. It's just definitely not Yeah. I I I mean, if you want any fully open source
2056
02:53:46.435 --> 02:53:46.935
2057
02:53:47.795 --> 02:53:51.175
based processor today, you go with the r k 4399,
2058
02:53:51.955 --> 02:53:53.255
which we both use.
2059
02:53:53.710 --> 02:53:54.210
The
2060
02:53:56.990 --> 02:53:58.930
2061
02:53:59.710 --> 02:54:00.210
Yeah.
2062
02:54:01.235 --> 02:54:04.935
Yeah. I'm, I'm pretty happy with it. What about
2063
02:54:05.314 --> 02:54:10.215
2064
02:54:11.270 --> 02:54:12.170
out of the box,
2065
02:54:12.710 --> 02:54:13.450
kill switch,
2066
02:54:14.229 --> 02:54:15.290
full disk encryption.
2067
02:54:16.070 --> 02:54:20.570
2068
02:54:22.025 --> 02:54:24.045
the the memory
2069
02:54:24.425 --> 02:54:25.965
attack that we are
2070
02:54:26.905 --> 02:54:29.645
trying to protect against is based on
2071
02:54:30.561 --> 02:54:34.101
memory that can be physically removed from a machine. So,
2072
02:54:36.240 --> 02:54:46.354
what what what happened is if you take a memory module from a PC, if you freeze it, you can put it in another PC and reread the keys from that memory.
2073
02:54:46.975 --> 02:54:48.700
But in our devices,
2074
02:54:49.561 --> 02:54:51.740
and I am speaking for all of us here,
2075
02:54:52.601 --> 02:55:03.145
the memory is soldered to the to the board. So, anyway, if you want to freeze the memory and unsolder it to transfer it to an another board, you will unfreeze it anyway.
2076
02:55:03.680 --> 02:55:04.500
So, yeah, it's
2077
02:55:04.960 --> 02:55:10.340
a nice to have, but it's not something really mandatory. It's free. It's it's really,
2078
02:55:11.359 --> 02:55:13.585
hardware gaming. But, yeah, we we have that.
2079
02:55:14.065 --> 02:55:14.645
It it
2080
02:55:15.185 --> 02:55:19.025
it applies more if you plug in a cold car in,
2081
02:55:19.505 --> 02:55:21.045
HSM mode, for example,
2082
02:55:22.170 --> 02:55:30.590
because it will also kill the power to the HSM. So the the keys from your cold card will be disabled when someone opens the physical case.
2083
02:55:33.835 --> 02:55:36.495
2084
02:55:37.195 --> 02:55:38.175
Just that's all.
2085
02:55:38.795 --> 02:55:39.695
2086
02:55:40.471 --> 02:55:45.931
it would be who of me to mention, I believe, RaspiBlitz has a separate strategy where all the individual
2087
02:55:46.710 --> 02:55:52.125
portions are encrypted rather than full disk encryption, and I believe the case that they offer
2088
02:55:52.766 --> 02:55:58.306
one of the cases they offer requires you to unplug the power to open the case,
2089
02:55:59.610 --> 02:56:00.830
which is a,
2090
02:56:03.530 --> 02:56:11.325
kind of like a brute force, a mechanism way to to do a kill switch without a kill switch. What about the idea of redundant drives
2091
02:56:11.705 --> 02:56:21.540
for running a lightning routing node? How important is that? I I feel like it it is really under discussed. I know the Nautle dojo comes with that out of the box.
2092
02:56:25.615 --> 02:56:28.595
2093
02:56:29.695 --> 02:56:31.795
Minot or s 9.
2094
02:56:34.490 --> 02:56:38.270
2095
02:56:38.730 --> 02:56:39.851
2096
02:56:49.950 --> 02:56:56.690
2097
02:56:57.535 --> 02:56:59.774
was fast, furious, and a little bit reckless.
2098
02:57:00.175 --> 02:57:02.995
Admittedly, it was a mistake the way that we launched the embassy.
2099
02:57:03.854 --> 02:57:07.851
We put a lot more effort into the software than thought into the hardware.
2100
02:57:08.230 --> 02:57:11.290
We launched with a micro SD, which is basically running everything,
2101
02:57:11.830 --> 02:57:17.125
and you create manual backups by inserting a thumb drive. So almost all of our hardware WOs,
2102
02:57:17.745 --> 02:57:21.846
are being rectified in 0 three o, which is coming, next month. So
2103
02:57:23.439 --> 02:57:26.100
RAID is coming in October is the latest,
2104
02:57:26.960 --> 02:57:30.899
feedback that we've gotten from the McClellan brothers who are really the force behind everything
2105
02:57:31.495 --> 02:57:33.115
at the c OS and Bitcoin.
2106
02:57:36.055 --> 02:57:41.420
2107
02:57:41.800 --> 02:57:44.779
actually allows you to build the RAID,
2108
02:57:45.319 --> 02:57:45.819
mirroring.
2109
02:57:46.315 --> 02:57:47.775
If you plug in an external,
2110
02:57:48.476 --> 02:57:48.976
SSD,
2111
02:57:49.755 --> 02:57:50.255
it's,
2112
02:57:51.035 --> 02:57:57.020
configured to be so like, the the internal SSD is actually a one drive mirror
2113
02:57:57.480 --> 02:58:02.061
composed of only one drive. And if you plug an external hard drive, you can
2114
02:58:02.915 --> 02:58:03.975
set up the mirroring
2115
02:58:04.354 --> 02:58:06.295
to any of our device.
2116
02:58:08.835 --> 02:58:11.495
2117
02:58:12.270 --> 02:58:15.971
body refs support experimental in there for some versions now,
2118
02:58:16.431 --> 02:58:20.931
that allows you to set up a rate. The only thing is really it's, it's it's hard to advise,
2119
02:58:21.391 --> 02:58:25.016
that you put directly to SSDs, to a Raspberry
2120
02:58:25.476 --> 02:58:27.655
Pi because of the power situation.
2121
02:58:28.275 --> 02:58:33.460
So you end up maybe having more problems because maybe power cuts out or something. So you can do it experimentally
2122
02:58:33.840 --> 02:58:47.806
at the moment if you adjust a second drive with a with a add additional power supply. This is why because it's a little bit more complicated setup that's not easy to use. It's not what we recommend at the moment by default. It's more for the people that know what they're doing.
2123
02:58:48.170 --> 02:58:58.444
And, and Open Arms is experimenting a little bit with, set of us on Juno setup. So so there are some at least we are on the topic, but we haven't found the sweet spot yet to really commend it to everybody.
2124
02:58:59.145 --> 02:58:59.645
2125
02:59:00.345 --> 02:59:04.561
2126
02:59:05.020 --> 02:59:07.681
Oh, damn. No. Yes. So we're also,
2127
02:59:08.301 --> 02:59:12.635
for Ronin Dojo, we'll be working we'll be implementing the, RAID
2128
02:59:14.314 --> 02:59:18.495
and and Luke's encryption as well. I mean, I know we don't have the,
2129
02:59:19.045 --> 02:59:35.385
what's called the lightning to have to worry about the channels and whatnot. But, as far as ensuring that your data doesn't get corrupted and then having to redo everything else that you're doing resyncing all of your dojo and everything else, and and to include, obviously, your Whirlpool instance running in the event that a drive goes down.
2130
02:59:36.005 --> 02:59:36.950
We have that,
2131
02:59:37.910 --> 02:59:38.970
that should be in
2132
02:59:39.270 --> 02:59:44.891
by October as well. So, we're pretty excited to have that full stack support. But
2133
02:59:45.360 --> 02:59:46.605
2134
02:59:47.545 --> 02:59:49.726
So so, yeah, I mean, you definitely,
2135
02:59:50.105 --> 02:59:51.325
cut out a lot of
2136
02:59:52.025 --> 02:59:55.405
the concerns if you just don't have lightning, because lightning backups
2137
02:59:55.770 --> 02:59:56.990
are a major issue.
2138
02:59:57.610 --> 03:00:02.030
I just wanna thank you guys. I mean, we're hitting the 3 hour point. This is a very important conversation,
2139
03:00:02.490 --> 03:00:02.990
and
2140
03:00:03.405 --> 03:00:05.825
I appreciate you all coming on here. I mean, we know
2141
03:00:06.445 --> 03:00:11.265
one of the major node projects did not come on here, so I appreciate you guys coming on here for this
2142
03:00:11.600 --> 03:00:13.060
no holds barred discussion.
2143
03:00:13.840 --> 03:00:15.060
Very important discussion.
2144
03:00:15.680 --> 03:00:17.060
I wanna thank you guys
2145
03:00:17.840 --> 03:00:19.300
a ton for coming on.
2146
03:00:19.994 --> 03:00:23.055
Before we wrap up, I guess, just final thoughts. We'll just go,
2147
03:00:23.675 --> 03:00:25.614
from left to right starting with Rudolf.
2148
03:00:27.990 --> 03:00:28.810
2149
03:00:29.590 --> 03:00:42.024
well, maybe to wrap up, at the moment, the recipe blitz, because we're talking about what, you know, to choose, the recipe blitz at the moment still likes you to use the terminal terminal a bit. So if you're not completely feel comfortable with that,
2150
03:00:42.610 --> 03:00:46.790
maybe some other node projects are still maybe a choice for you. But in the end,
2151
03:00:47.490 --> 03:00:58.846
it gives you a lot of, options on the terminal, a lot of early stuff to try out. So it's for the tinkerers a bit, for the people that like to concentrate on on run running a routing node at home.
2152
03:00:59.653 --> 03:01:21.160
And but but there will be and this is what we're working on, with the 1.8 release. There will be a web UI also on top. So this should be then more easily for people to use that are not that familiar with terminal. The terminal will always be available, and we'd also like to people encourage on their journey later on to jump in there and, and kind of gain their skills, level up a bit on their skills.
2153
03:01:21.700 --> 03:01:23.540
But we may we will make it more,
2154
03:01:24.186 --> 03:01:31.405
more easy to use. So if you're thinking about having an Umbrel or a minor, for example, there's already the migration features.
2155
03:01:32.410 --> 03:01:36.591
And, if you really like to have a web UI, maybe wait for the 1.8,
2156
03:01:37.370 --> 03:01:38.110
or 1.81
2157
03:01:38.570 --> 03:01:40.830
when you really want to have all the kinks worked out.
2158
03:01:41.525 --> 03:01:46.585
Then maybe this could be an option for you to continue your journey and maybe migrate to a Respiblitz.
2159
03:01:47.445 --> 03:01:49.545
2160
03:01:50.230 --> 03:01:56.250
2161
03:01:56.630 --> 03:02:11.100
I'm looking forward to, you know, expanding my node users and continuing to provide, you know, great services for them and expanding the number of apps. So if anybody has ideas for features they want implemented, you know, just hop on our GitHub or send me an email or follow us on Twitter,
2162
03:02:11.960 --> 03:02:16.220
and I look forward to continuing, you know, onboarding as many Bitcoiners as possible.
2163
03:02:16.805 --> 03:02:18.186
2164
03:02:19.285 --> 03:02:25.785
2165
03:02:27.530 --> 03:02:29.470
really wish that Umbrella was here,
2166
03:02:30.250 --> 03:02:31.550
not not just because,
2167
03:02:32.410 --> 03:02:38.115
you know, of everything that happened on Twitter. I I personally would have wanted it because I think that, like, just
2168
03:02:38.575 --> 03:02:40.435
like, everyone here owes it to their users.
2169
03:02:41.060 --> 03:02:45.080
We owe it to our users to explain our our positions and why we do what we do.
2170
03:02:45.780 --> 03:02:46.280
So,
2171
03:02:47.140 --> 03:02:52.435
I am glad. Thank you all for for actually, like, participating in this. It was a lot of fun. I learned a lot of different stuff, and,
2172
03:02:52.915 --> 03:02:57.815
and I definitely I respect everybody's project. I'm glad that we're all building tools towards the future,
2173
03:02:58.890 --> 03:03:01.470
We're all trying to make something good, which is awesome.
2174
03:03:01.850 --> 03:03:09.225
The only shout out that I got for my team is, we do have a brand new web design that's coming out, WebUI 2 point o.
2175
03:03:10.005 --> 03:03:11.064
Hopefully, by,
2176
03:03:12.965 --> 03:03:15.765
by October as well. We're gonna have it's
2177
03:03:16.530 --> 03:03:18.931
I wanna say it's like a cypherpunk version of,
2178
03:03:19.490 --> 03:03:20.311
of Umbrell's
2179
03:03:20.690 --> 03:03:22.790
nice pretty UI, so they better watch themselves.
2180
03:03:24.854 --> 03:03:32.135
So excited about that. And, and, yeah, if you're looking to run Whirlpool, you're looking to run your dojo and, you know, the most stable one you got, go ahead and,
2181
03:03:33.510 --> 03:03:36.570
head us up in Telegram or, just download our code.
2182
03:03:37.030 --> 03:03:39.530
2183
03:03:40.835 --> 03:03:44.615
2184
03:03:45.075 --> 03:03:45.975
Some of them,
2185
03:03:46.435 --> 03:03:51.561
it was the first one. So I I hope we have some more talks after that.
2186
03:03:52.820 --> 03:03:58.680
Second thing, we just onboarded our first another employee, which is our support person.
2187
03:04:00.125 --> 03:04:04.945
And I hope our support level will improve from now on a lot.
2188
03:04:05.726 --> 03:04:06.125
And,
2189
03:04:06.605 --> 03:04:07.825
last thing is,
2190
03:04:08.760 --> 03:04:11.260
after Jack's announcement about El Salvador,
2191
03:04:11.800 --> 03:04:17.260
we started working about a very new product, which will be our first free,
2192
03:04:18.354 --> 03:04:19.575
as in free beer,
2193
03:04:20.995 --> 03:04:26.854
product. And I'm really hoping it will help emerging countries to move to Bitcoin.
2194
03:04:27.470 --> 03:04:32.290
And it's a really personal thing, and I hope it will it will work.
2195
03:04:33.069 --> 03:04:36.689
2196
03:04:38.476 --> 03:04:52.650
2197
03:04:53.110 --> 03:04:58.015
but it's made made to it's made it's basically a wrap around drone market to to
2198
03:04:58.795 --> 03:05:03.615
be able to start it quick. And if it's running alone, then it helps you to
2199
03:05:04.940 --> 03:05:08.721
download the blockchain and insta join market and just, you know, get going
2200
03:05:09.340 --> 03:05:10.320
terminal terminal
2201
03:05:10.700 --> 03:05:11.840
usage, SSH
2202
03:05:12.141 --> 03:05:13.120
at least necessary.
2203
03:05:13.854 --> 03:05:14.354
So,
2204
03:05:14.975 --> 03:05:15.875
yeah, that's something
2205
03:05:17.695 --> 03:05:20.195
I I I will, you know, continue to develop
2206
03:05:20.655 --> 03:05:22.115
alongside and inside
2207
03:05:22.610 --> 03:05:24.550
of just the as well.
2208
03:05:24.931 --> 03:05:25.431
Otherwise
2209
03:05:25.971 --> 03:05:37.365
yeah. Thank you. It was a fantastic occasion. Respect to all the work you do, and, you know, it's a pleasure to speak to you also. Thanks thanks very much. Thank you, Open Arms. Matt, final thoughts?
2210
03:05:38.421 --> 03:05:41.240
2211
03:05:42.341 --> 03:05:48.806
You know, I didn't know what to expect coming in here. I definitely did not feel attacked in any way. I think that everybody's,
2212
03:05:50.226 --> 03:05:52.226
we'll call them arguments that were made against,
2213
03:05:52.785 --> 03:05:55.870
one or more of the decisions that we have made as a company are valid,
2214
03:05:56.270 --> 03:05:57.570
will be taken seriously.
2215
03:05:58.351 --> 03:06:03.970
And, there's an open line of communication for everyone here, to me and to the rest of the team.
2216
03:06:04.426 --> 03:06:05.886
There are 8 of us here now,
2217
03:06:06.506 --> 03:06:07.806
and we are all,
2218
03:06:08.585 --> 03:06:12.766
very, very passionate about what we are doing, and we are serious when we say,
2219
03:06:13.500 --> 03:06:14.640
that we're out to
2220
03:06:15.260 --> 03:06:17.680
to create the same future that you all are. So,
2221
03:06:18.300 --> 03:06:23.585
hopefully, we make good decisions along the way, and we will always try to make better ones as we go. And,
2222
03:06:24.445 --> 03:06:27.905
yeah, thank you all. I look forward to continuing the conversation.
2223
03:06:28.604 --> 03:06:31.185
2224
03:06:31.490 --> 03:06:34.070
the contributors who have joined us today for their time.
2225
03:06:34.770 --> 03:06:38.550
Open discussion in this space is extremely important. This is why we dispatch.
2226
03:06:39.315 --> 03:06:42.455
This is why this project was started in the first place.
2227
03:06:43.555 --> 03:06:48.840
I wanna encourage the freaks to run their own nodes and use their own nodes and play with these projects.
2228
03:06:51.220 --> 03:06:53.479
It's it's it's absolutely important,
2229
03:06:54.820 --> 03:06:59.475
to to just get your get your get your hands dirty. It's not as difficult as you think it is.
2230
03:07:00.255 --> 03:07:03.154
I wanna thank all the ride or dive freaks in the chat,
2231
03:07:03.510 --> 03:07:06.729
for joining us for another dispatch and joining us for all the other dispatches.
2232
03:07:07.109 --> 03:07:10.329
I wanna thank everyone for supporting the show and keeping it ad free.
2233
03:07:10.976 --> 03:07:11.715
Just a reminder,
2234
03:07:12.575 --> 03:07:15.155
all the archives are available at citadel dispatch.com.
2235
03:07:15.535 --> 03:07:19.395
You can support the show there. We have a sphinx tribe, a very active discussion,
2236
03:07:20.370 --> 03:07:22.391
surrounding Bitcoin over on Sphinx,
2237
03:07:22.931 --> 03:07:24.711
where you can also support the show.
2238
03:07:26.450 --> 03:07:28.935
If you if you just wanna go on your favorite podcast app,
2239
03:07:29.494 --> 03:07:40.210
you can search Ciddle dispatch in any of the popular podcast apps as well to subscribe. I wanna remind everyone that we have gone 26 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row. I appreciate you all for joining me
2240
03:07:40.670 --> 03:07:41.330
on this.
2241
03:07:42.110 --> 03:07:47.091
But next week, I will be off grid, so we will be skipping a week, and we will be joining back
2242
03:07:47.586 --> 03:07:49.926
for another Bitcoin Tuesday the week after that.
2243
03:07:50.306 --> 03:07:52.006
I need a little bit of r and r,
2244
03:07:52.625 --> 03:07:56.485
and I appreciate you all. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Mark. You have been incredible.
2245
03:07:57.450 --> 03:07:58.910
2246
03:07:59.370 --> 03:08:00.110
2247
03:08:01.690 --> 03:08:02.990
2248
03:08:05.275 --> 03:08:06.335
Call it the Doxolil.
2249
03:08:10.955 --> 03:08:13.375
Waking up, I checked the price of Bitcoin.
2250
03:10:03.150 --> 03:10:04.370
Mister Swan and
2251
03:10:04.750 --> 03:10:05.730
Max. Every fellow
2252
03:10:06.190 --> 03:10:07.010
OG, RCT,
2253
03:10:07.870 --> 03:10:08.370
loomedart,
2254
03:10:08.750 --> 03:10:10.690
R and R, Dopes and Kobe.
2255
03:10:11.150 --> 03:10:12.045
If you don't know
2256
03:10:36.320 --> 03:10:45.805
there's no lie. See, I lost all my money in the exchange hack and the boating accident that happened after that. Plus, I'm down a couple racks
2257
03:11:46.561 --> 03:11:52.181
2258
03:11:52.801 --> 03:11:55.301
That guy is a real freak. Captain Youth
2259
03:11:55.635 --> 03:11:59.175
Track is called Bitcoin. You can follow him on Twitter, l captain youth.
2260
03:12:00.114 --> 03:12:06.939
We have to support our Bitcoin artists. The dream of dispatch is to tend every dispatch with a a proper Bitcoin track.
2261
03:12:07.240 --> 03:12:09.740
I love you all. I'll see you on RHR on Thursday.
2262
03:12:10.840 --> 03:12:20.730
Even though I'll be off grid, we will still make RHR happen next week. Just no dispatch because it's harder for me to do a livestream than it is for me to just make RHR work.
2263
03:12:21.051 --> 03:12:23.070
Love you all. Stay humble. Stack stats.
