May 19, 2021
CD22: the lightning network with @fiatjaf and @evankaloudis
EPISODE: 0.2.2
BLOCK: 684116
PRICE: 2311 sats per dollar
TOPICS: lightning network
@fiatjaf: https://twitter.com/fiatjaf
@evankaloudis: https://twitter.com/evankaloudis
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00:00 - Bitcoin price volatility
00:26 - Predictions for Bitcoin price range
01:31 - Institutional adoption of Bitcoin
05:42 - Bitcoin race car initiative
12:25 - Bitcoin price drop and Elon Musk's influence
15:56 - Bullish outlook on Lightning Network
47:13 - Trade-offs in the Lightning Network
48:06 - Adoption of Liquid and Lightning
50:31 - Integration of Lightning Network in Games
01:31:09 - Issues with the current market maker system
01:32:08 - The need for a separate Oracle in gambling
01:33:24 - The demand for frictionless Bitcoin gambling
02:11:49 - Attacks on Ethereum Classic
02:12:14 - Cracking lower hash rate chains
02:13:28 - Nostra - a decentralized broadcasting cloud
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:02:33 PM
Duration: 9973.081
Channels: 1
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Back to just talking about,
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where Bitcoin is. Because when you remember when it ran up to 14,000
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and then pulled back to about 9,000? You said, yeah. No. That got a little bit out. I wish I'd sold some. At 14 Yeah. You copped to that. You got in trouble.
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The stackers all wrote in. Novogratz says, you know, paper hands or whatever the heck they're called. Alright. Now you're you've got the 62.
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Now we're at 45.
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What are your hands feeling like? Are they paper? Are they how come you're not doing the same thing? Why aren't you saying, you know what? I've made 10 times my money. Why don't I get out and then stack when it comes down back down to 20? So you must not think it's going back to 20. I I think 40 should hold. You know, I think we're gonna be at a 40 to 55 range for a while. We'll consolidate, and then we'll have another leg up. And I say that not just by guessing. We see institutions
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moving in, and it takes them a while. Right?
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UBS, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan,
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almost every bank is on their way into their wealth channels.
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They're not there yet. They're getting set up. They're getting their funds ready. And so you think about just Morgan Stanley for a second. Right?
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With 2013, 14, I think I was, like, the lone Wall Street guy screaming about Bitcoin.
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Morgan Stanley just trained 4,000
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financial advisors
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to sell Bitcoin. And so we're gonna have these armies of newly
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anointed
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prophesizers,
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salesmen, who have learned the the technology, have learned why it's important in your portfolio,
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all going out to the bulk of wealth in America, 50 to 80 year olds, and I think that's gonna have an impact.
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It doesn't have a overnight. You would you would stack at 40. You would start I would stack at 40.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.
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Last time we did one of these, last Bitcoin Tuesday,
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we were we were up a humble
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13 and a half $1,000 from where we are today.
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It's been a 24%
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decrease
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week over week since last Bitcoin Tuesday. Hope you guys are all huddling in there, and,
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you didn't get to let your ego get to you too much, and you you weren't leveraged, and and you didn't get blown the fuck out.
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Because if that's the case, then you're in Stackers Paradise right now, accumulating some cheap sets.
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Citadel dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software
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coming to you every Tuesday.
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This is our 22nd
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episode.
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Very excited about it.
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To those coming in through our audio streams,
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what there are 2 podcast feeds.
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That was our boy, Joe Kernan, on CNBC talking with Novogratz,
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about stacking the dip
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and about weekends.
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Novo is a bit of a shit corner, no doubt, but, it's always good to see that kind of talk on mainstream media. It's pretty funny how it is permeated everywhere.
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As always, I just wanna do a big shout out to the rider die freaks that are here in the live chat and that have supported the show.
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Couldn't do without you guys. You guys are what it's about.
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You really make, Bitcoin Tuesdays really special to me. So so thank you to all you guys, especially
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if you're coming in through the podcasting 2 point o.
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The streaming stats is really fucking cool. We're gonna talk about that a little bit on the show,
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but if you haven't checked that Breeze app, like, the the the Breeze app is
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is you really see the future there. You can really see the future of of being able to stream value directly to content creators,
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rather than this ad model that is just, like, proliferated everywhere.
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So, definitely check that out if you haven't.
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I also wanna do a big shout out to our boy, Jack Mahler's
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living legend.
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He set up the Indy race car. We're gonna have a Bitcoin race car, car number 21,
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at the Indy 500 this weekend.
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Oh, yeah. He,
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completely
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turned down any actual strike branding on the race car, So it's going to be completely Bitcoin branded,
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and they're accepting donations that will go to open source development.
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So it's a really fantastic initiative. We had, I think, Michael Sailor pledged $250,000
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the other day,
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today earlier today.
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So pressure all,
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your businesses
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in the Bitcoin community to to step up to the plate and support open source development in probably the most baller fucking way possible, which is with a really fast fucking race car,
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in front of a 144,000
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people in Indianapolis.
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And
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I've been supporting it as well. You can support it at strike dot me slash racing.
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Any any donations that come in through the lnurl,
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QR code on the bottom left hand of the screen, if you're watching the video stream throughout this stream,
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will be split 5050
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with the with the race car. So,
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just trying to do my part
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to help this initiative. It's a really fucking great initiative, and it really aligns well with the work we've been doing at opensats dotorgandalsobitcoindevilist.com.
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So I'm really excited about that.
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With all that said, this is Citadel dispatch 22.
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We have Evan Kaludis returning
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for his 5th show.
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Oh, man.
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What's up, Briggs? Glad to be back.
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One of our resident lightning junkies, so it was important that he was here for the show. Last last week, if if you missed it, you should go and check it out, but there was a very deep dive into lightning privacy,
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with our boy Anthony and Open Arms. So we're gonna do the same fucking thing again. It's gonna be another really deep fucking show,
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on lightning and and just continue that path, And and we're fortunate enough to have Fiat Jaffe here with us who,
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is someone I've admired a lot on the Internet,
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but I never heard his voice till today, so it's really exciting to have him on the show. What's up, Fiat, Jeff?
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Hey. What's up?
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Very for inviting me. Yeah. Very prolific lightning developer.
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So really excited. The other thing that I wanted to mention before we jump into this is that I've been updating Citadel dispatch.com,
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and now all of the episodes are up there with embedded videos and searchable transcripts. I
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have continued my trend of just losing money doing this show, so I put another 1,000,000 sats into automated
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AI transcripts, which to be quite honest, aren't that good, but it's pretty fucking cool that you can search through all of the episodes.
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And I'm going to be going through those and trying to edit them and refine them because they have, like, these tools that I could do that for. But in the meantime,
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all 22 episodes of dispatch are easily searchable on dispatch.com,
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so
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pretty fucking cool.
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So with all that said, I mean, I I guess, you know, let's let's you know, people pretend that they're in it for the tech, but we gotta talk about what's on everyone's mind.
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Is Bitcoin dead? Are we going to 0? Is it all over? And why did Elon fuck us?
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That's a loaded question. Well, Matt, right to it.
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Yeah, man. It's been a really crazy week.
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You know, I I know a lot of hodlers are having their net worth fluctuate.
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A lot of people without faith just selling and letting go of their whole bags.
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You know, it's a little overblown, to be honest. And, you know, of course, mister Musk isn't helping
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with his bullshit, but, at the same time,
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just kind of,
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drawbacks
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or,
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you know, sort of par for the course. Look to 2017
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even. What we we drew back, like,
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4 or 5 times like this, 30% plus.
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And, I think people also need to take into account that taxes were due past couple weeks. Right? So there's gonna always be a lot of people
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just offloading their bags just to pay the bills, especially if there's, you know, traders in,
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this field. What so you think, like, people are panic selling their Bitcoin, like, the day before tax day when they realize how much taxes they owe? I I think there's a lot of people that don't plan in advance.
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That's for sure.
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But, you know, it's also not,
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we also can't neglect, you know, all the rhetoric and and the post from Elon this week. Of course, that shook a lot of people out. You know?
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It's hard to deny,
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how much we pumped when Tesla said they were adding to their books.
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So that's obviously a factor too.
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But I think we are like, the the the the fall of the price is not that big. I don't know because I'm not following that much. So
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but but if if it if you were at 5,000 and you drop to 4,000,
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it wouldn't be a
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very large dip. Right? So
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this what happened now wasn't isn't that big.
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And Elon Elon put us on a new level,
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and we we didn't drop drop from that from that level yet. So
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Yeah. I mean, I I think, you know, people love to put,
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and I kind of set you guys up with the question. I just think it's funny that I just got all these people reaching out to me, like, texting me, like, like, what the fuck is Elon doing? Like, what a fucking asshole,
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what a douchebag. It was like I I said to a friend, it was almost like their best they found out their best friend, like, slept with their fiance.
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You know? Like, they were, like, so betrayed. I'm like, guys, like, what the fuck did you expect? Like, he's never been a stable person. Like like, who who who thought, like It's not even just that he's not a stable person. It's, like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, think about it. Like, Tesla
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doesn't make money off their cars. Right? He has one of the poorest run,
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alternative energy companies, right, in,
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whatever, his panel company.
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And SpaceX is is a darling for government subsidies as well. Right?
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These are the kind of people that are gonna suffer the most
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post hyperbitcoinization.
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So it it should leave,
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it should be a surprise that that an individual like this
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is working to forward Bitcoin
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and, you know, trying to hold on to that sweet, sweet subsidy for as long as he can.
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But I just wanted to just add here. I mean, if you look at
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in in in bull markets,
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and bear markets, people just like trying to find explanations for price drops.
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But this is a thing that is just natural. It is gonna happen. Bitcoin is a truly scarce asset,
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and as a result, as it's going through its adoption phase, you tend to have these, you know, rapid increases
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and then decreases,
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you know, where it's just trying to find its support level. It's like there's no way for it to really go up,
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in a smooth fashion because it's just, like, almost like pure chaos. And I so I have a chart on the on the screen for the people on the on the video streams,
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from Glassnode from Glassnode's weekly, report. And as you can see on this thing, like, we had massive draw downs last in 2017 too. Like, people after the fact will pretend, you know, staying humble and stacking stats was the easy mood mode, and that anyone could have huddled and that we were all fucking lucky.
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But there was a lot of shit your pants stumps that happened,
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in 2017.
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Mhmm. And there's gonna be a lot more that happened this time, and it's just that now we're at such a higher number. You know? A 23% drop is $14,000.
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Like, that's not nothing. Right? Like, that's absolute
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terms,
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I could see it scaring more people.
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So that was our our daily Bitcoin price talk, and now we can jump into the tech that everyone cares about. Yeah. Fuck Elon.
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Yeah. I mean, the the moral of the story is that Elon is wanted to make sure that the whole world knows that he's still short Bitcoin. So But but it it should be a lesson. Like, we shouldn't simp for
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any billionaires,
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you know, none the
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no. We shouldn't send for any billionaires, and definitely don't send for any cantillionaires
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that are, you know, just just drunk off of the government spigot.
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We have full time Bitcoin in, in the comments. He's our resident,
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Tesla freak. He's obsessed with Tesla, so
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he he wants everyone to know to fuck Elon, but not fuck SpaceX.
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I don't know why he's making that distinction. I mean, I'm I'm kinda excited for Starlink. I think Starlink could be very useful to us.
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I would never get a Tesla period though because it's, like, a horrible fucking car for privacy. And,
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don't get me started on that. And, like and you have, like you just automatic imagine automatic updates to a car car, like, the thing is, like, going, like, 80 miles an hour and just getting automatic updates.
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Scare the shit out of me.
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I hope one day
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bad on the oil pipeline. Like, what if you get ransomware on your car? What if you're not driving it? What if your wife and kids are driving it? The best excuse if you're late to a meeting, you know, my car got ransomware ed.
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The I hope that that some rich Bitcoin or at some point in the future creates, like, a luxury private car company,
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you know, that has no computer in it. It's just, like, got a, you know, regular combustion engine in it, and just put this a nice car that's privacy focused. That would be the ideal for me. Because, like, right now, I feel like I have to buy a 20 year old car,
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if I don't want a computer in it. Or at least a hardening service, you know, like,
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drop my Tesla off and, like, chop that up. Like, let me get a couple of, firewalls in there, you know, some ways of verifying what's going on there, and, you know, cut off the core function from the web.
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I'm told that updates aren't automatic.
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So live corrections are the best part of the show or one of the best parts of the show. Okay. So For now, they're not automatic. So they For now.
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Yeah. I mean, they're not automatic. Right? But it's closed source, and no one's verifying it before they click the update button. So who the fuck? It doesn't really matter. If you press the accelerator,
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it updates. It's it's your constant.
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Yeah. So,
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that was a very important Bitcoin discussion. I'm really glad we had it.
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And I think let's just, you know so this this
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dispatch is all about dispatch
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is all about actionable Bitcoin discussions. So the idea is,
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I want us to focus on things that Bitcoiners can actually,
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you know, use in their day to day basis more so than, big picture things. But,
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since I have you, I'd I,
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you know, I I
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I think we'll
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ignore that aspect just for the beginning here, and I'm kind of curious, big picture.
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You've been, you know, really focused on lightning development specifically.
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Are you
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you know, the 2 year, 3 year outlook for lightning, are you bullish on it? Are you bearish on it? You know, what is your what are your thoughts there? Should should Bitcoiners,
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Bitcoiners seem to be very hyped about lightning right now. Is that is that hype properly placed, or is it mis
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placed? I think it's it's properly placed, but I'm not sure for the the same reasons. I I I I bullish I'm bullish on lightning, but
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I'm I'm bullish on more like a a network and less like a trustless
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pure payments through channels thing. Like,
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I think I think Bitcoin will have other forms of transferring there there there will be more other forms of transferring Bitcoin,
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and I think Lightning is the
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is the the the base for should be the base for all these like, if someone comes up with another protocol,
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we should integrate integrate it into Lightning,
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and
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Lightning will be this this network that connects everything,
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including custodial services and
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other
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stuff.
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So I'm I'm bullish on it because of that.
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Yeah. I mean, I think,
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I I I think we tend to be on the same page there from what you just said.
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You know, one interesting aspect,
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is that a lot of light and you just mentioned it, the word custodial. I mean, a lot of developers,
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frown on anything custodial related.
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But I feel like you've kind of leaned into it.
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Do you want to, like, do in a lot of ways, I feel like lightning
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I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I, like, I feel like lightning
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really works well as, like, interoperable custodial wallets.
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This idea where you can have, like, a bunch of little custodial wallets with
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varied trust models, and they can all interact with each other in an open way.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. That that's what I think too, like, since a long time.
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When people I I people use it to say, like they still say, like, if you if you're going if you're going to use a custodial wallet, better use PayPal.
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But this this argument is stupid because PayPal is not using Bitcoin.
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And then they say, oh, so use Coinbase. But Coinbase is a closed thing. You're you're stuck inside there, and they they own you if you're there. But if you're using a a custodial
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service that's interactive lightning,
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then it's open. And then anyone can join other custodial service. Like, competition,
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makes things better. Like,
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we don't have to have trustless everything. We we need the trustless option,
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but the the market,
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the free market of of services
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still works very well for most things.
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So also for money transferring.
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So do
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you think,
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do you think the average user should be using their own Lightning node when they interact with Lightning?
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Well, I think they should for now if they are willing to
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to
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if they they want to understand it, they they must run a a node to to see it go it happening and so on. But I I don't think most people
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are up for this. Like, they they don't care.
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And and so I think
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the people that care and the people that understand should strive to create an an environment
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in which the people that don't care don't get trapped inside Coinbase.
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They can get trapped inside
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a a more open
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thing.
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Does that make sense?
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Well, I mean, let's talk about so so right now, I have this lnurl
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on the bottom left hand corner,
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and it uses your LNTX
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bot, which
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is a Telegram bot, but
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I feel like it does that doesn't go far enough. It it's it's a full fledged lightning wallet
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that runs inside of the Telegram app, which is already installed by, well, I don't know, like, a couple billion people probably.
250
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And it's got tons and tons of features in it, including this static donation
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QR code that allows anyone to just scan it whether it's during the show or later, and it goes it goes right to my wallet. Now that wallet is custodial though,
252
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and, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. The main reason it it's custodial is because it makes it way easier for you to implement those features. Right? In, like, a UX friendly way.
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Well, the the actual way it's custodial is because I didn't know how to do it, like, differently when I did it.
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But, yeah, if if it wasn't custodial, it would require people to run software
255
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and connect to the bot, and no one would do it. So
256
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But let's talk about the risk. Right? The risk is that you run away with my money,
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and or that
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there's there's some kind of pressure and you have to require KYC.
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So
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both of those get mitigated
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if you just use it with less amount of money. Right? I mean, that's basically the argument. Right? It's like if if you if you run away if you if you decide to do an exit scam on this wallet,
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you know, I'll lose 50 or $60 or whatever, and I'll just call it a day and call it even.
263
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I think I think
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yeah. I think that's
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exact.
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For this for this custodial wallets,
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you should put low money on it. It's all fine.
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It's it's just weird. People running nodes to to you you start a full lightning node and open channels just
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to transact
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$5 on it. It's not it's not good investment.
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And it's weird because, like, you know, we go deep into the weeds on this show. I mean, dispatch
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freaks are you know, I think they're
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they're very enthusiastic
275
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about Bitcoin. They're very focused on Bitcoin, on best practices.
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Most of them are probably using their own nodes.
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But then you have, like, wake up calls where, you know, I had Keydominer and MBK on the show. You know, they're both highly technical people,
278
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very educated Bitcoiners, and they both admitted you know, Keydomen who runs a lightning service, they both admitted that their favorite wallet to use was Wallet of Satoshi, which is a custodian mobile wallet.
279
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So I feel like there's this massive disconnect between, like, the geeks in the space
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and reality. Right? And no one really discusses it, so I kinda like that. I think dispatch should be able to bridge that gap.
281
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Yeah. I I just I I there there's definitely a role here for custodial wallets, and to say otherwise is just ignoring the reality. Right?
282
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think when if you're talking about,
283
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building bridges,
284
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I think 11
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the biggest problem with Custodial is the privacy,
286
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not that someone will steal,
287
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$10 for a new for new like, the the privacy is much worse because
288
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I can't see all transactions from everybody
289
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on LNTX, but and that's bad.
290
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But the the solution to this is that the,
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hosted hosted channels thing. Have you ever heard about that?
292
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Well, let's talk about that.
293
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Yeah. The hosted channels is
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is a protocol that
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uses the same lightning
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base, like, the the same communication channels,
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and
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you you you just do something similar to to Lightning.
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It's it's a channel with amounts and so on and balances, but you the the the client doesn't doesn't
300
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control the money. The money stays on the on the host side.
301
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So it's a it's a custodial service, but it's fully private because the the host doesn't know what where you're sending the payments to and
302
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basically
303
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Now this is currently implemented on BLW on Android. Is that right? Yeah. It's currently implemented on BLW. And the server side, there's a, it's it's running on a clear for for Intel, which is my pseudonym.
304
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Just kidding.
305
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And now and now Antl is making a new wallet
306
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that's much better, much cleaner, I think,
307
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and with the with the Immorton library.
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And releasing a plug in to
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for anyone to run it run the the the server side on their a clear note easily. So there there could be a a bunch of different custodians
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hosting these these channels.
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And also, I'm I'm planning on finishing, like,
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getting my work done and making a plug in for c lightning tool to support this. If I find that 15 that that that extra hour in the day, I will do it.
313
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Yes. I think that BLW is a pretty interesting model.
314
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So, you know, you have those hosted channels
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that are indeed custodial,
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but,
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for more pressing stuff or, you know, when you can't find a route, you're able to have your own channel opened up,
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you know, to make those connections that are you know, those payments that are more private and to the branch you wanna make. And you can have a wallet with different channels different hosted channels to different hosts. Like and
319
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you don't
320
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your money doesn't sit all in one place. And you'll then then you send NPP payments splitting over these different
321
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hosted
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channels. It's very private. It's very, very, like, very private.
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And
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I think it's I think it's a very good model,
325
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and no one's talking about it.
326
00:25:28.155 --> 00:25:37.880
Yeah. It's it's definitely underrated and has a lot of interesting qualities to it. And, yeah, I think it's only gonna get more interesting as we have more providers like this that offer hosted channels
327
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as,
328
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you know, more different wallet implementations,
329
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have support for it.
330
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And furthermore, down the line,
331
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as far as, like, protocol stuff goes, is routing is split up and sees a whole bunch of innovations,
332
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then things start getting really interesting.
333
00:25:55.985 --> 00:26:00.725
So the simple summary of the hosted the hosted channel's trade off is
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they can't
335
00:26:02.465 --> 00:26:07.900
they you you you you don't have custodial privacy, but they can still steal your funds. Right?
336
00:26:08.600 --> 00:26:09.100
Yeah.
337
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:09.980
Mhmm.
338
00:26:11.365 --> 00:26:15.385
Actually, I think you should call them credit channels. I I don't understand why
339
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custodial is bad, but credit is good on the on the mainstream,
340
00:26:19.685 --> 00:26:20.090
like
341
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a finance
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world.
343
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Credit is okay. You don't pay taxes for credit, but you
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the government goes against you. You should do custodian stuff.
345
00:26:32.395 --> 00:26:39.409
But, so so you we when we when we have you know, there's there there's it's an interesting nuance here. Right? Because
346
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you have
347
00:26:42.110 --> 00:26:44.450
a privacy concern with your custodian,
348
00:26:45.105 --> 00:26:47.205
I mean, if we're not talking hosted channels,
349
00:26:47.745 --> 00:26:48.245
but
350
00:26:48.945 --> 00:26:50.565
in a lot of ways, you get
351
00:26:50.865 --> 00:26:59.900
better external privacy if that custodian is a trusted source. If that that custodian is not working against you if the custodian is working against you, you have, obviously, you have worse privacy.
352
00:27:00.665 --> 00:27:03.485
But if the custodian is attempting to protect your privacy,
353
00:27:04.265 --> 00:27:11.410
then you have in in a lot of situations, you might have better privacy. Like, one of the things I think is interesting about Bitcoin On
354
00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:19.845
Chain is, historically, we've had a ton of custodial wallets, and they've all, like, failed. So people have moved, you know, to pretty much the default is noncustodial.
355
00:27:20.145 --> 00:27:22.485
Right? Like, it's a it's it's a very rare day
356
00:27:23.025 --> 00:27:32.960
where you have, like, a mobile wallet that has custodial on chain. We still have that in lightning, and, you know, we have 61 and 2 in the comments. I think one of the main concerns I have with something like Wallet or Satoshi
357
00:27:33.445 --> 00:27:36.985
or Blue Wallet is it's not very clear that it's a custodial wallet.
358
00:27:37.765 --> 00:27:44.840
Yeah. What the risks are and what the trade offs are. But we've seen on chain, like, people have moved to pretty much self custody by default.
359
00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:51.000
And as a result, all of a sudden on chain privacy techniques are more important. Right? Because if you're,
360
00:27:52.075 --> 00:28:00.175
and I already I I see people realizing this even if they don't admit it when they, like, try and pay me from strike or cash app because they don't want me to,
361
00:28:01.639 --> 00:28:06.779
you know, see what their balances are. So they they rely on the custodian to protect their privacy for them,
362
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.179
which I just think is just an interesting
363
00:28:11.345 --> 00:28:16.404
it's an interesting thing that happened that no one really talks about is that was this move from from custodial
364
00:28:17.080 --> 00:28:21.020
dominating to non custodial and and the impact it had on on chain privacy?
365
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.174
Yeah. Yeah. I I was not following the Bitcoin space
366
00:28:27.475 --> 00:28:27.875
at the
367
00:28:28.515 --> 00:28:29.495
at this period
368
00:28:30.035 --> 00:28:32.775
when people use it. We still do on chain wallets.
369
00:28:33.280 --> 00:28:35.440
So I don't really know it. This thing about,
370
00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:43.415
not show sharing your balances is, like, to the peep to the person you're paying, this is not talking about very much, like, in this
371
00:28:43.715 --> 00:28:45.495
every time someone talks about privacy,
372
00:28:46.915 --> 00:28:52.990
no one talks about this or maybe I'm missing it. The joint market has a good solution to it. You can pay someone
373
00:28:53.290 --> 00:28:57.310
while doing a coin join with the exact amount, so it fixes that.
374
00:28:59.125 --> 00:29:00.025
But yes.
375
00:29:00.565 --> 00:29:03.465
Yeah. But with LightningAid, it's it's much more
376
00:29:03.845 --> 00:29:06.585
it's much harder to to move to a no custodial
377
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:08.000
setup.
378
00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:12.240
So So what do you what do you think keep smaller amounts.
379
00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:23.605
I mean, the the big thing I think with non custodial Lightning is channel management. There's this concept of channel management. I think it kinda goes hand in hand with how hard it is to conceptualize UTXO management to begin with,
380
00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:26.940
in coin control. Like, this is something that we're always
381
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:31.500
harping on and very focused on in this space,
382
00:29:33.585 --> 00:29:34.085
but
383
00:29:35.024 --> 00:29:36.005
it it it's
384
00:29:36.385 --> 00:29:44.919
UTXO management is, like, a very hard thing for people to grasp, and as a result, I feel like lightning channel management is also has this this
385
00:29:45.220 --> 00:29:45.620
this,
386
00:29:46.179 --> 00:29:48.765
speed bump. It's a hurdle to try and understand it.
387
00:29:49.325 --> 00:29:56.625
And that's kind of where the custodial wallets come into play. Before I get there, 6102 is saying it was always dominated by non custodial wallets.
388
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:00.380
I mean, I would push back there. What I'm suggesting is, you know, stuff like
389
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.460
like Silk Road, for instance, was a completely custodial product,
390
00:30:05.185 --> 00:30:08.885
that had a built in mixer, and and the users of Silk Road,
391
00:30:09.425 --> 00:30:12.885
were relying on that custodial privacy to provide them privacy.
392
00:30:15.070 --> 00:30:15.570
But
393
00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:21.809
so so I'm talking about from that angle or or any of the exchanges that were non KYC, stuff like BTCE
394
00:30:22.535 --> 00:30:24.635
that existed for the longest fucking time,
395
00:30:25.415 --> 00:30:31.755
or MintPal or Cripsy or whatever. I don't know. All the fucking shit coin casinos that that had no KYC.
396
00:30:32.780 --> 00:30:35.360
Those are all custodial wallets. But, anyway, I'm getting derailed.
397
00:30:35.900 --> 00:30:40.160
Fiat, Jeff, I'm curious. So so we're talking about UTXO management, channel
398
00:30:40.460 --> 00:30:40.960
management.
399
00:30:43.155 --> 00:30:45.815
One thing we've talked about a lot in this show is
400
00:30:46.275 --> 00:30:48.215
the uncle Jim model. This idea
401
00:30:48.820 --> 00:30:53.080
where you have, like, a friend or family member, in this case, his his name's uncle Jim,
402
00:30:54.179 --> 00:30:56.519
and he runs the node for the family.
403
00:30:57.725 --> 00:31:03.025
And he has, like, you know, 25 or 30 people that he's custodial on top of,
404
00:31:03.405 --> 00:31:06.210
that he you know, he's their he's their Bitcoin friend or Bitcoin uncle.
405
00:31:10.130 --> 00:31:18.664
Samura implement this with their QR code pairing with the node, but that's obviously not lightning, and we've seen BlueWallet implement it recently,
406
00:31:20.485 --> 00:31:23.785
on the lightning side. So BlueWallet defaults to custodial,
407
00:31:24.790 --> 00:31:29.850
but it it runs on LND hub. So if you run LND hub on your Raspberry Blitz or your Umbrel,
408
00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:31.850
or I think my note as well,
409
00:31:33.175 --> 00:31:35.035
you can then be the uncle Jim,
410
00:31:35.415 --> 00:31:36.635
and you can have,
411
00:31:38.055 --> 00:31:40.795
you can have friends or family connect to you, and they don't have to deal with any channel management or anything. You deal
412
00:31:41.530 --> 00:31:43.710
you know, trade off wise, or
413
00:31:44.690 --> 00:31:45.190
is
414
00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:52.605
that something that you think is just a complete waste of time? You know, trade off wise, or is that something that you think is just a complete waste of time?
415
00:31:53.145 --> 00:32:00.310
Yeah. No. I think that's that's a good thing good thing for the future and for now. Yeah. I see it happening. I see people on the LNB's
416
00:32:00.610 --> 00:32:05.030
Telegram chat asking about how to set up the LND Hub plug in
417
00:32:05.335 --> 00:32:07.595
so they can host for friends and family.
418
00:32:08.054 --> 00:32:08.554
And,
419
00:32:09.095 --> 00:32:14.794
yeah, I I since a long time ago, I I I thought about this too, and I think it's a good model.
420
00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:16.520
I think the the
421
00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:24.040
the model for with with hosted channels, anyone being able to to run their own hosted channel server,
422
00:32:24.785 --> 00:32:28.725
that's good too for this this specific case to the oncogene
423
00:32:29.025 --> 00:32:30.280
stuff. So
424
00:32:30.785 --> 00:32:31.605
yeah. Yeah.
425
00:32:32.270 --> 00:32:34.450
I think this is the way the way future
426
00:32:34.910 --> 00:32:35.650
is this.
427
00:32:36.830 --> 00:32:43.035
This and other other scene other things that the the good thing about Lightning is this. You can have the Uncle g model. You can have the completely
428
00:32:44.215 --> 00:32:50.075
running your own stuff model. You can have the big exchange bank model, everything together.
429
00:32:50.650 --> 00:32:51.950
And also people running
430
00:32:52.250 --> 00:32:54.430
lightning on lightning on some liquid
431
00:32:55.050 --> 00:32:56.830
and other side chains.
432
00:33:00.535 --> 00:33:04.715
What are your thoughts here, Evan? I mean, you're the lead maintainer of a completely noncustodial,
433
00:33:05.175 --> 00:33:06.315
non uncle Jim.
434
00:33:08.020 --> 00:33:09.240
User own node wallet?
435
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:12.440
Yes. So
436
00:33:14.105 --> 00:33:15.645
I really do want to support
437
00:33:15.945 --> 00:33:19.885
uncle g model. Right? LND does have support for the uncle g
438
00:33:20.265 --> 00:33:20.765
model.
439
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:24.400
So we have support for LND hub.
440
00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:26.320
You can
441
00:33:26.620 --> 00:33:29.260
download Zeus and use that if you want.
442
00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:35.905
We auto generate the blue wall in lnd hub server, but we encourage everyone to,
443
00:33:37.245 --> 00:33:43.010
you know, if possible, find an uncle Jim to connect to and use their
444
00:33:43.310 --> 00:33:54.295
note. In fact, we're doing some work right now. We have some work in right now to fix the connection for LD Hubs that are behind Tor. So, like, let's say you use an Umbrel, and that's on Tor by default.
445
00:33:55.315 --> 00:33:58.935
The next release of Zeus is gonna make sure that that's all ironed out.
446
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.580
And, if you're an uncle Jim
447
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:05.820
and you've got a node that's running on Tor, you're running that LND Hub blue
448
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:07.980
wallet server service
449
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:09.340
behind Tor,
450
00:34:10.345 --> 00:34:13.485
Zeus is gonna be able to accommodate people using that. So,
451
00:34:14.185 --> 00:34:15.405
I I think that
452
00:34:15.865 --> 00:34:18.940
there's some limitations with what you can do with LND hub.
453
00:34:19.980 --> 00:34:22.000
Obviously, you're not gonna get the fully featured
454
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:26.319
set of features like key send or channel management
455
00:34:26.859 --> 00:34:27.680
or messaging
456
00:34:28.335 --> 00:34:32.835
of that stuff. But to onboard people onto the Lightning Network, it's a great solution.
457
00:34:33.215 --> 00:34:34.515
And if we want
458
00:34:35.890 --> 00:34:40.550
this to be viable and and for this to be more common and,
459
00:34:41.250 --> 00:34:42.710
you know, for for real
460
00:34:44.615 --> 00:34:48.235
commercial solutions, like, with big corporations running stuff,
461
00:34:49.255 --> 00:34:50.875
to not be the the default.
462
00:34:51.990 --> 00:34:54.250
You know? Freaks have to go out there
463
00:34:54.950 --> 00:34:58.570
and run it themselves and and try to onboard their friends and family.
464
00:34:59.225 --> 00:35:03.725
Let's make this the way that people experience Lightning Network for the first time.
465
00:35:05.225 --> 00:35:06.445
There's so much more,
466
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:21.145
you know, it's so much easier to go to your friend, your buddy, your uncle Jim than to, you know, file a support ticket at this big corporation that you hope is inevitably gonna be looked at
467
00:35:21.845 --> 00:35:23.145
and, you know,
468
00:35:23.685 --> 00:35:24.185
centralizing
469
00:35:24.645 --> 00:35:28.970
risk. You you you don't want these big honeypots of people's info
470
00:35:29.510 --> 00:35:33.530
to, you know, keep growing and collecting people's data and,
471
00:35:33.990 --> 00:35:34.570
you know,
472
00:35:35.325 --> 00:35:38.225
be there to be subpoenaed by federal government.
473
00:35:39.325 --> 00:35:39.885
But are we
474
00:35:40.845 --> 00:35:44.145
like, I I see I see why it's ideal.
475
00:35:44.930 --> 00:35:48.869
I mean, look. Bitcoin doesn't have a support department or marketing department.
476
00:35:50.210 --> 00:35:56.155
A show like this, you know, we can hit thousands of users, but thousands of people, but, like, it can't scale to,
477
00:35:56.695 --> 00:35:58.875
you know, educating 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000.
478
00:35:59.815 --> 00:36:01.660
The only way it really scales if
479
00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:05.359
was, like, each of each of the freaks, you know, goes and
480
00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:12.775
and, you know, helps 10 of their friends and family, and and they have tons of 10 of their friends and family. And then that's how I, like, see it scaling.
481
00:36:13.235 --> 00:36:15.095
But, like, are we biased? Like
482
00:36:15.715 --> 00:36:16.215
like,
483
00:36:16.590 --> 00:36:18.770
I wasn't around you know, I'm a youngin'.
484
00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:21.310
I wasn't around during, you know,
485
00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:25.490
when com computers and the Internet were starting to become a thing.
486
00:36:27.474 --> 00:36:34.214
But, like, some of the old timers that have been around, they told me, you know, like, this was the model that they were talking about back in the day.
487
00:36:34.550 --> 00:36:36.250
Like, the Internet was gonna be,
488
00:36:36.950 --> 00:36:41.610
you know, your your uncle Jim was gonna run the mainframe computer in, like, his garage,
489
00:36:42.150 --> 00:36:49.155
and everyone was gonna connect to it. And instead, what happened was economies of scale just centralized it all into,
490
00:36:49.535 --> 00:36:51.235
you know, Google, Apple, Microsoft,
491
00:36:51.535 --> 00:36:52.035
Amazon,
492
00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:59.720
Twitter, Twitch. Right? Like, it it centralized it all into these these giant clouds these cloud services.
493
00:37:00.365 --> 00:37:05.425
But that trend is just being bucked now. Like, home computing is becoming so
494
00:37:05.805 --> 00:37:08.065
practical and so much cheaper. And
495
00:37:08.445 --> 00:37:11.800
you know what it really is? It's like people realize the terrors of
496
00:37:12.180 --> 00:37:22.395
what can go wrong when you trust these centralized entities with your data. Like, the average person is starting to, you know, come to terms with the amount of control that Google and Apple
497
00:37:22.855 --> 00:37:25.035
and Microsoft, etcetera, all have.
498
00:37:25.655 --> 00:37:26.155
And,
499
00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:29.280
you know, now now that we have these solutions,
500
00:37:31.420 --> 00:37:32.480
in, you know,
501
00:37:32.860 --> 00:37:33.360
cheap
502
00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:36.240
hardware and and free open source software,
503
00:37:36.655 --> 00:37:42.515
Like, people are starting to explore. I mean, it's it's not gonna be your your grandma that sets one of these off.
504
00:37:43.690 --> 00:37:47.390
But, you know, for the people who are willing to do their own research and
505
00:37:48.010 --> 00:37:49.869
figure out how all these things work,
506
00:37:50.329 --> 00:37:52.510
it's it's more practical than ever.
507
00:37:53.295 --> 00:38:03.310
And, you know, it's it's it's not inherently by the default design of the Internet that that these things would happen and become centralized. It's like a hub and spoke model. You know? Like like, the Internet's
508
00:38:04.410 --> 00:38:09.310
built to route around these traffic jams. And to be sort of centralized entities are
509
00:38:10.165 --> 00:38:11.385
sort of anomalous.
510
00:38:12.485 --> 00:38:15.145
And, you know, hopefully, the the move
511
00:38:15.525 --> 00:38:17.225
the movement keeps running, and,
512
00:38:17.530 --> 00:38:20.190
you know, people take things into their own hands.
513
00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:24.190
And, you know, we we need to try to make sure in the Bitcoin community
514
00:38:24.650 --> 00:38:26.510
that we don't get to that centralized,
515
00:38:26.810 --> 00:38:27.310
really
516
00:38:29.035 --> 00:38:31.695
highly centralized model. Like, we wanna try to avoid that
517
00:38:32.155 --> 00:38:33.775
instead of having to undo it.
518
00:38:34.235 --> 00:38:36.790
I think, like, the Internet has survived
519
00:38:37.170 --> 00:38:39.430
in in the sense that you can still
520
00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:43.990
go to the Unfolding or run your own stuff model today.
521
00:38:44.345 --> 00:38:44.845
Uh-huh.
522
00:38:45.465 --> 00:38:51.085
And even if the the majority of people are are using the centralized service, and they they can they can migrate
523
00:38:51.385 --> 00:38:52.925
off now like they're doing.
524
00:38:55.100 --> 00:39:03.745
And so if if you can do that on Bitcoin and Lightning, I think we're safe. Like, as long as it's possible to to to jump
525
00:39:04.205 --> 00:39:11.799
off, we're fine. The the bad thing would be if the centralized big providers just made themselves incompatible with everything else, and
526
00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.039
then they trapped everybody.
527
00:39:14.660 --> 00:39:16.839
But if it if that doesn't happen,
528
00:39:17.535 --> 00:39:18.915
it's still okay.
529
00:39:20.494 --> 00:39:20.994
Yeah.
530
00:39:21.775 --> 00:39:24.994
I saw I saw a question on the chat, but it it vanished.
531
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:26.660
Someone asking
532
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:32.820
if if you're if you're not liable for hosting the the funds of your friends and family.
533
00:39:33.494 --> 00:39:38.635
I think I think I don't know if you are liable or not. I don't know the the laws, but I think this question is
534
00:39:39.015 --> 00:39:44.119
is I see it happening everywhere. Like, everybody's too afraid of being liable to to stuff.
535
00:39:44.900 --> 00:39:51.785
I'm not sure that's the correct mentality. I think we shouldn't like, if if everybody if if a ton of people are running nodes and
536
00:39:52.644 --> 00:39:56.744
for for their friends and family, the government won't be able to track everybody.
537
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:57.280
So
538
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:10.925
This is total cock mentality. I'm sorry to butt in, but, like, if you're gonna have the government have to dictate every private relationship you have, then you've already lost the plot. You know? Like, we're we're trying to build a world of voluntary interaction.
539
00:40:11.545 --> 00:40:19.650
If you can't make it up, you don't wanna take on that risk and help advance this technology and make life easier for your friends and family because of legal liability,
540
00:40:20.465 --> 00:40:22.325
yeah, you're already cooked. I'm sorry.
541
00:40:23.505 --> 00:40:27.045
Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted to say, but not in these words.
542
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:35.060
So that's it. We have to step up and and take some risk, I think, for the benefit of everybody.
543
00:40:36.435 --> 00:40:39.495
And if more the more people do do it, the best.
544
00:40:40.355 --> 00:40:44.455
There was also a question that finished about how Lightning or Liquid
545
00:40:45.490 --> 00:40:47.750
would work with Lightning or Main Bitcoin.
546
00:40:48.690 --> 00:40:52.150
And the the the answer is just that you just need bridges
547
00:40:52.575 --> 00:40:53.075
And,
548
00:40:54.175 --> 00:40:56.675
like like, the nodes that are on liquid,
549
00:40:57.214 --> 00:40:59.395
they must understand how to use the bridge.
550
00:40:59.775 --> 00:41:04.280
And the nodes that are on on the on the main chain side, they can
551
00:41:05.780 --> 00:41:10.280
the liquid node can use the route hints route hints on the invoice to
552
00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:11.320
to
553
00:41:12.025 --> 00:41:17.405
point them to the bridge, and then the bridge knows what to do to send the pass the the payment
554
00:41:18.025 --> 00:41:19.245
to the liquid node,
555
00:41:19.839 --> 00:41:21.540
if that that makes sense.
556
00:41:22.319 --> 00:41:23.380
I have a prototype
557
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:27.859
for that, but it needs a ton of improvement to be actually usable.
558
00:41:28.255 --> 00:41:28.994
But it works.
559
00:41:29.775 --> 00:41:30.835
I think it works.
560
00:41:33.375 --> 00:41:42.370
I feel like you have I feel like you have a bunch of, like, little projects you're not telling us, Jeff. I feel like Yeah. Your hands are everywhere. Like yeah. I feel like your engine is revving, like,
561
00:41:42.830 --> 00:41:44.210
all the way all day.
562
00:41:45.165 --> 00:41:47.665
Like, it feels like you're a workhorse, man.
563
00:41:47.965 --> 00:41:48.465
I'm
564
00:41:48.845 --> 00:41:53.905
impressed by, like, all the little pods you've got your hands in and all the contributions you've made.
565
00:41:56.190 --> 00:41:56.690
Yeah.
566
00:41:56.990 --> 00:41:57.490
Yeah.
567
00:41:57.869 --> 00:42:00.450
I wish they were finished and working and
568
00:42:01.365 --> 00:42:06.105
there were more people helping maybe or maybe making them better than me.
569
00:42:06.805 --> 00:42:10.500
But I I can't finish most of the things I have. I I I tried.
570
00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:13.320
I mean, I just wanna jump back real quick.
571
00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:19.160
I mean, I I think there is, you know, definitely real liability and and depending on your jurisdiction.
572
00:42:20.685 --> 00:42:26.785
And I think but mostly that works to our advantage. Right? And I I I guess I kind of asked a,
573
00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:37.904
you know, I asked kind of a leading question when I asked if it's gonna centralize, and I think what happens is, like, the one thing we have going to our advantage
574
00:42:38.285 --> 00:42:43.505
is these financial regulations mean that, you know, the centralized corporate services,
575
00:42:44.125 --> 00:42:47.440
because of liability, are gonna have oppressive KYC.
576
00:42:48.700 --> 00:42:51.440
They're gonna have, you know, information retention
577
00:42:52.060 --> 00:42:54.720
and and poor privacy. So because of that,
578
00:42:55.714 --> 00:43:02.214
there's actually a major friction point to using these centralized services over using either your own node or,
579
00:43:02.930 --> 00:43:06.230
I see in the comments, we they don't like uncle Jim. They want aunt Jam.
580
00:43:07.890 --> 00:43:11.510
If, you know, using your uncle Jim node, you don't have that that friction.
581
00:43:11.925 --> 00:43:20.505
So they're they're I unlike the Internet, you know, something like with with, like, Gmail, for instance. Right? It's, like, centralized email. Right? It's, like, completely.
582
00:43:21.310 --> 00:43:26.770
If you talk to, like, an original email nerd, like, Gmail completely lost the plot and isn't real email.
583
00:43:27.310 --> 00:43:46.799
But people love it. Right? And it's because that trade off isn't very clear that they're reading your email and they're providing you a service because they're just reading through every single thing you do and just collecting information on you. But if you sign up for a centralized service and they're, like, upload your passport, prick your finger and give us your blood, give us your Social Security number, like, the firstborn
584
00:43:47.180 --> 00:43:47.680
child,
585
00:43:48.365 --> 00:43:54.385
like, then, you know, you might look for a different option. You're gonna be like, that that's that's a heavy price to pay.
586
00:43:54.685 --> 00:43:57.345
So we kind of have that you know, while that's
587
00:44:07.255 --> 00:44:09.115
It'll also help to our advantage,
588
00:44:09.734 --> 00:44:11.035
the fact that,
589
00:44:12.295 --> 00:44:16.250
that that they you know, the big players will have to ball with those regulations. Right?
590
00:44:18.010 --> 00:44:20.350
Yeah. It's it's definitely something working in our favor.
591
00:44:21.089 --> 00:44:23.390
The Yeah. But the person was asking about
592
00:44:23.705 --> 00:44:29.565
the the Right. Uncle Jim lawyers, the the Uncle Jim liability. I think Uncle Jim shouldn't worry about that.
593
00:44:30.345 --> 00:44:41.140
Yeah. I mean, if I was a lawyer, I would say to worry about it. But in practice, you know, if you're doing it for, like, your 10 family members or something, like, except for the, you know, the most authoritative governments, you'll probably be fine.
594
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:46.715
So I kinda derailed the conversation a little bit. We were, like, dipping our toes into liquid.
595
00:44:48.375 --> 00:44:52.155
Do you think, like, liquid is a reasonable project, or do you think, like, it's
596
00:44:53.770 --> 00:44:54.829
it's it's unnecessary
597
00:44:56.089 --> 00:44:57.470
because of lightning existing?
598
00:44:58.569 --> 00:44:59.789
Oh, I think it's reasonable.
599
00:45:00.645 --> 00:45:03.464
I like I like I think custodial stuff is reasonable
600
00:45:03.765 --> 00:45:05.865
as I said before. And, like,
601
00:45:06.805 --> 00:45:09.704
we we should strive to get better custodian models,
602
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:13.859
and liquid is a good custodian model. It's a custodian that
603
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.180
it's very private and,
604
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.220
actually, not very private if you're trying to
605
00:45:19.655 --> 00:45:21.195
to back out. But
606
00:45:21.815 --> 00:45:30.200
and it's reasonably safe. Right? The the apparently, they have good good safety for the keys. So it's it's better than a bank,
607
00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:37.295
and it's open. You don't have to to KOC to use it. Only only if you want to peg out, but
608
00:45:37.775 --> 00:45:39.555
that's not not always necessary.
609
00:45:41.295 --> 00:45:51.599
Yeah. Because you can just do a swap, really. You don't need to do a formal peg out. Yeah. That's what I think. The the the obsession over the peg out is a little bit ridiculous because the only thing that you you really have,
610
00:45:53.464 --> 00:45:54.285
you know,
611
00:45:54.744 --> 00:45:54.905
trust minimized,
612
00:45:56.425 --> 00:45:59.244
in and out with is lightning. Before lightning existed,
613
00:46:01.289 --> 00:46:03.549
you know, this idea that we had a trust minimized
614
00:46:03.849 --> 00:46:09.950
way of pegging in is is is revolutionary on its side on itself. And then, you know, swaps,
615
00:46:10.585 --> 00:46:13.725
you know, especially if we get atomic swaps. But even if you get
616
00:46:14.105 --> 00:46:18.605
I mean, we already have them. We have the custodial swaps. Right? Like, the shape shift type of things.
617
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.020
And that's what people have been using with altcoins for however long.
618
00:46:24.040 --> 00:46:29.805
It's relatively trust minimized. I mean, obviously, they can run off with your money in the interim while the while the trade's happening.
619
00:46:30.505 --> 00:46:36.125
We had Adam back on the show the other day. He made an interesting point. Like, even if we have if we have centralized atomic swaps,
620
00:46:37.539 --> 00:46:45.400
that improves the trust model slightly further because, yes, it's a centralized point of failure, but they can't steal your money. The swap only happens if they're giving you the
621
00:46:45.940 --> 00:46:46.680
the equivalent.
622
00:46:49.525 --> 00:46:52.585
So, like, it's almost like a misnomer saying, like, we need permissionless
623
00:46:53.045 --> 00:46:56.985
peg outs on on liquid. We just need, like, a healthy swap market. Right?
624
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:01.580
Yeah. The yeah.
625
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:08.555
I mean, if if the peg outs are someone will have to to do the the bag outs on the normal way. Like,
626
00:47:09.415 --> 00:47:14.155
or at least that that guarantee has to be there that there will be a bag out. Adam
627
00:47:14.470 --> 00:47:21.050
Adam made a interesting point. Right? And there was a trade off made, and the trade off was if, you know, they get you get
628
00:47:22.585 --> 00:47:25.085
way better external security for the system
629
00:47:25.385 --> 00:47:28.525
if you make it so PEG outs only go to approved ex pubs,
630
00:47:28.825 --> 00:47:30.444
which is the federation members.
631
00:47:31.200 --> 00:47:33.619
So it's, like, it's a very clear trade off they made.
632
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:49.369
And I I'm not, you know, I'm not sure I'm I'm not gonna be the one who says that the better trade off is that they should be able to peg out to any fucking address, because who wants who wants the chance that you could have, you know, 10,000 Bitcoin just get drained from the whole system at once
633
00:47:49.750 --> 00:47:51.130
or whatever. I'm being alarmist.
634
00:47:52.070 --> 00:47:57.875
But Yeah. Yeah. I I didn't know that. I didn't know that the that was a decision based on on security.
635
00:47:58.175 --> 00:47:58.835
So yeah.
636
00:47:59.535 --> 00:48:03.955
Yeah. We did a 3 hour banger with Adam back on the show, which was a very special episode.
637
00:48:04.415 --> 00:48:05.075
Yeah. Great.
638
00:48:06.120 --> 00:48:20.585
Where we do no one talks about liquid. That's why I like to talk about it more. No one uses it. I mean, if you go to, like That's the main thing. More services have to adopt it, really. And, you know, if you take a look at their blockchain and see how many transact on. It's a ghost town. I mean,
639
00:48:20.885 --> 00:48:25.859
not to say that it doesn't have some real merits and could be really useful. It's just, definitely
640
00:48:26.560 --> 00:48:34.020
not where we need it right now. And, you know, you could say the same thing about lightning. Lightning needs a lot more adoption for Yeah. But not at not
641
00:48:35.244 --> 00:48:42.145
not the same level. Yeah. Not the same level. People are using Lightning more actively, but they could both use bump.
642
00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:46.190
Yeah.
643
00:48:47.130 --> 00:48:48.750
No one talks about RSK.
644
00:48:50.009 --> 00:48:51.789
Did you have an opinion on RSK?
645
00:48:53.395 --> 00:48:54.135
Yeah. No.
646
00:48:54.515 --> 00:48:56.695
I think the same about Liquid. Like,
647
00:48:56.995 --> 00:48:57.735
I think it's
648
00:48:58.035 --> 00:48:59.655
better than a bank, so
649
00:49:00.355 --> 00:49:02.695
that's good. I I'm not sure about the
650
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:11.400
Ethereum like smart contract. I'm not sure they're very useful. But It has a it it has a shitcoin. It has a shitcoin, though. Liquid doesn't have the shitcoin.
651
00:49:12.205 --> 00:49:13.585
Yeah. There's also that.
652
00:49:14.365 --> 00:49:16.685
You could generate your own shitcoins on,
653
00:49:17.645 --> 00:49:26.750
like, liquid, when when are we gonna do the Citadel dispatch coin? You know what I mean? This is this is liquid this is liquid on that pool space right now.
654
00:49:27.530 --> 00:49:31.585
Like, the blocks do happen quicker, so you have to give them that. Like, like 2 transactions
655
00:49:31.965 --> 00:49:32.705
per block.
656
00:49:33.005 --> 00:49:34.385
Fucking ghost tab.
657
00:49:34.845 --> 00:49:35.345
Man.
658
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:42.480
Well, that's pretty crazy. That is just said. Let's see what happens if,
659
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:48.205
you know, once this gets integrated with it all the way and and see how that pans out.
660
00:49:48.585 --> 00:49:56.460
That could go a long way. But I think it's also gonna take some of the other centralized exchanges to be running it for things to really take off.
661
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:03.195
Yeah. I mean, we had fee spike, and still pretty much no one used it. I don't know. We'll see. I I I think
662
00:50:03.815 --> 00:50:12.950
I think it's, it's a lot more user friendly for for a new user because they don't have the channel management. I think that's the main thing it does going for it. I don't get the whole trader thing,
663
00:50:14.610 --> 00:50:18.505
because I I think the trader thing can get solved with private lightning channels. But,
664
00:50:20.825 --> 00:50:23.164
Yeah. I digress. I'm just, so
665
00:50:24.505 --> 00:50:28.880
so, Fiat, Jeff, you started working with, our friends over at Zebedee,
666
00:50:29.660 --> 00:50:31.440
when from in December. Right?
667
00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:32.480
Yeah.
668
00:50:33.180 --> 00:50:37.984
So we had to the freaks that that remember, we had Andre Neves on the show,
669
00:50:39.325 --> 00:50:41.345
CEO and cofounder of Zebedee
670
00:50:42.445 --> 00:50:44.625
4 episodes ago or 5 episodes ago.
671
00:50:47.330 --> 00:50:51.910
So the the the focus over there is is putting stats and lightning into games.
672
00:50:53.954 --> 00:50:54.454
Yeah.
673
00:50:55.234 --> 00:50:58.595
Do you wanna dive into that experience at all? Like, what do do you think
674
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:14.955
is it as natural of a fit as we think it is? Like, are are is that is that do you think it's safe to say that most Zoomers are gonna start using Sats in video games before they use them anywhere else? Oh, I I don't know. I don't understand the Zoomers.
675
00:51:18.190 --> 00:51:20.369
I don't play with games very much also,
676
00:51:20.910 --> 00:51:23.810
but I think that's that that has potential, and
677
00:51:24.165 --> 00:51:24.665
I
678
00:51:25.205 --> 00:51:26.665
don't think it's as easy.
679
00:51:27.205 --> 00:51:32.025
I I I've heard you say before, like, that you just wanna lose sets to some
680
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:37.320
some Asian guy that kills you. But I'm not sure that the incentives
681
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:40.135
the incentives are that perfect.
682
00:51:40.595 --> 00:51:45.895
The the the the sets change the the incentives. So you have to you have to change the game a little, like, to
683
00:51:46.275 --> 00:51:46.775
accommodate.
684
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:51.300
Like poker is a a good game with that could be played with sets because
685
00:51:52.020 --> 00:51:53.560
with money of any kind
686
00:51:54.099 --> 00:51:57.675
because the the the money is inside the game. It's not just
687
00:51:58.055 --> 00:51:59.675
the the winner takes all.
688
00:52:01.975 --> 00:52:09.080
Like, the the bluffing and putting putting money on the table, that's a part of the game. And I think putting sets inside games
689
00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:16.875
has to be done in that way too. Like, the the the first version of the Infuze CS GO thing, it was just the winner takes more sets.
690
00:52:17.335 --> 00:52:25.730
But then we added that coin. I don't know if you saw it, but when you when you kill someone, they left the sets in the form of a coin in the map. So that changed the incentives
691
00:52:26.109 --> 00:52:37.355
because if you go rushing to to pick up the coins, you expose yourself. And so that kind of changes in the game. I think that that's what makes Yeah. I love that. It's like,
692
00:52:37.815 --> 00:52:43.035
if you play Call of Duty, it's like kill confirmed. Like, you gotta pick up the tags left behind.
693
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:45.220
Otherwise, it doesn't count.
694
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.140
So But, yeah,
695
00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:53.060
really awesome to see you guys think of new game modes and and rolling them out. I need to play that one personally.
696
00:52:55.165 --> 00:52:56.705
Yeah. But I'm I'm hopeful.
697
00:52:57.405 --> 00:52:59.665
I I don't see very much the
698
00:53:00.125 --> 00:53:01.670
customer side of it. But
699
00:53:02.549 --> 00:53:03.369
Well, the consumers
700
00:53:03.670 --> 00:53:13.215
I mean, look. You said you're not a gamer. The consumers right now, like, these guys these people spend so much money on gaming already. It's like you automatically are losing money in gaming.
701
00:53:13.835 --> 00:53:18.655
It's just if you add if you add stats rewards, then you might make money as well.
702
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.700
Like, there might be, like, a a way to make money.
703
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.380
And and, I mean, the example that I always say, I mean, you brought it up, poker,
704
00:53:27.914 --> 00:53:30.815
is, like, fucking poker without money sucks.
705
00:53:31.355 --> 00:53:37.819
Like, I will not sit down to play poker for 4 hours without money now. I'm an adult. Okay? That's something that we did you did as children.
706
00:53:38.359 --> 00:53:44.380
Now that you're an adult, you wanna play you wanna play with cash. Otherwise, it's not it's not fun. And I think
707
00:53:44.875 --> 00:53:46.575
once you start having good games
708
00:53:47.115 --> 00:53:49.135
that have this, like, built in natively,
709
00:53:50.555 --> 00:53:54.335
where, you know, if you spend 2 hours, you have real money on the line,
710
00:53:55.339 --> 00:53:59.180
it's just gonna kinda ruin all the games that don't have it. It's just like, why would you
711
00:54:00.460 --> 00:54:02.400
there'll still be, like, a place for
712
00:54:02.715 --> 00:54:04.575
the single player epic games,
713
00:54:05.435 --> 00:54:10.735
where, you know, you just wanna, like, lose yourself for 5 hours, 6 hours, and escape reality,
714
00:54:11.130 --> 00:54:15.390
and there'll be no money in those. But, when it comes to the competitive shit,
715
00:54:16.010 --> 00:54:21.755
you know, people are gonna wanna I'm gonna wanna play I wanna play the game that I have skin in the game or actually have
716
00:54:22.055 --> 00:54:23.355
have stats on the line.
717
00:54:25.895 --> 00:54:38.704
Yeah. No. The the pro the problem is that if you're not the best player in the world, then you're gonna face the best player because they wanna take your sets. And then the game won't be fun because you wanna play with your level. That issue. Your level.
718
00:54:39.404 --> 00:54:54.005
Do they So, like, so, like, Fortnite is a perfect example. So Fortnite in the beginning, you would just get, like look. I'm not you know, the best gamers in the world are 14 years old, and they, like, their fingers just twitch organically with whatever they're doing.
719
00:54:54.465 --> 00:54:56.065
They don't even think when they play.
720
00:54:56.785 --> 00:55:11.555
So, like, in the beginning of Fortnite, we just used to get our asses kicked. And then they they added a system, you know, where, like, there's, like, a ranking system, like, a reputation system. Right? And and you'd now I can actually win because they only put me with the shitty players. Mhmm. Mhmm.
721
00:55:11.855 --> 00:55:16.755
So, like, that's I don't think that's like, that's just good game mechanics. Right? Like, that's not,
722
00:55:17.570 --> 00:55:23.830
like, period. Even if there's no sats on the line, if you just play a game where you just die instantly all the time, like, that's not a fun game.
723
00:55:25.015 --> 00:55:29.914
Yeah. Yeah. But the the problem is that peep most people want to play with people that are on their level,
724
00:55:30.295 --> 00:55:31.515
so the game is interesting.
725
00:55:31.870 --> 00:55:36.610
The the best player doesn't don't want to play with the worst player because it won't be found.
726
00:55:37.230 --> 00:55:45.095
But if they they want they're playing to get the money, then they want play with the worst player possible, so they get the the sets from that that guy.
727
00:55:45.635 --> 00:55:47.655
So there's there's an, conflicting
728
00:55:48.115 --> 00:55:54.090
incentive there that must be solved. But once you solve that, the games do become more interesting, I think.
729
00:55:55.670 --> 00:56:01.665
And, I mean, the other thing that you guys are dealing with on the fly and something we talked about on the on the show with Andre,
730
00:56:04.525 --> 00:56:06.225
is this idea,
731
00:56:09.329 --> 00:56:14.790
you know, is the is the user friendly nature of the wallet. Right? You guys have opted for a custodial wallet over there.
732
00:56:16.965 --> 00:56:20.905
Is this something you battle with? Like, I assume you guys would prefer to move to a noncustodial
733
00:56:21.285 --> 00:56:22.425
if possible. Right?
734
00:56:24.325 --> 00:56:25.385
I'm not sure.
735
00:56:26.789 --> 00:56:30.010
Yeah. I would prefer to move to a hosted channel model,
736
00:56:31.510 --> 00:56:37.215
but but I I don't know. The the people that play, I have the I'm not sure, but I have the impression that
737
00:56:38.075 --> 00:56:46.880
they want to be, like, the guy who just cares about playing games or whatever, forever kind. It's hard for that same person to be interested in running
738
00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:47.920
channels
739
00:56:48.539 --> 00:56:49.680
and so on. So
740
00:56:50.859 --> 00:56:54.904
maybe Black Personal will move to another wallet that has that capability.
741
00:56:55.365 --> 00:57:02.025
But for all the for the Zoomers that don't don't care about anything, they they should use the the so the wallet.
742
00:57:04.540 --> 00:57:09.760
It it shouldn't matter, though, because, like, you can just use whatever wallet to pay the invoices again. Yeah. That Right?
743
00:57:10.335 --> 00:57:17.154
Yeah. That that's the that's the the thing. What what's the only requirement? Like, you gotta do, l and u or l pay to get paid out
744
00:57:17.660 --> 00:57:18.640
For withdraw.
745
00:57:19.339 --> 00:57:21.819
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because it still means
746
00:57:22.140 --> 00:57:25.265
you're still sitting on a custodial wall till you withdraw. Yeah.
747
00:57:26.684 --> 00:57:33.904
Yeah. The I mean, the main issue of a custodial wall is is KYC regs. You know? It's the same thing we were talking about, that friction.
748
00:57:34.204 --> 00:57:34.704
And,
749
00:57:35.150 --> 00:57:43.890
you know, Zebedee has, like they have different limits. They have different levels for what level of KYC you do. Mhmm. So lower amounts, it's not, like, horrible.
750
00:57:46.085 --> 00:57:49.705
But, I mean, I think, ultimately, the goal's gotta be to move to a noncustodial
751
00:57:50.085 --> 00:57:55.369
thing so that you can open it up to more users. I mean, we had Sputnik on the same show,
752
00:57:55.750 --> 00:57:58.250
and he has Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, and he was like,
753
00:57:59.190 --> 00:58:12.800
you you know, he made his game like a proper BitCorner originally. And, like, every if when you installed it, it installed a full lightning node on your computer. Jeez. And, like, he had bottleneck issues real quick. And and the other thing is
754
00:58:13.100 --> 00:58:18.545
is in a high fee environment. Right? Like, if you have to open a channel for someone, you're hitting the chain.
755
00:58:19.165 --> 00:58:20.045
Right? That could be,
756
00:58:20.845 --> 00:58:22.224
you know, if if
757
00:58:22.765 --> 00:58:29.310
if block space if but the block space is not gonna increase, I I'd be very surprised if, you know, we have block size increase.
758
00:58:30.089 --> 00:58:33.710
So if that's the case, you know, we could be looking at a $100, a $150
759
00:58:35.195 --> 00:58:39.355
main you know, on chain transaction fees to open a channel. Like, how could you ever have,
760
00:58:41.115 --> 00:58:44.460
anything under that amount has gotta be custodial. Otherwise, you're just
761
00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:46.320
burning money.
762
00:58:46.700 --> 00:58:47.520
Yeah. Absolutely.
763
00:58:48.140 --> 00:58:53.775
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be sovereign, to have your own channels, there's a cost to it. And,
764
00:58:54.335 --> 00:59:00.595
that's that's one of the bigger problems here. It's like that and and the convenience of, you know, not having to manage your channels.
765
00:59:03.220 --> 00:59:09.000
These channels are so fragile. They close for you should touch them, they close, and then you lose a ton of money.
766
00:59:10.704 --> 00:59:17.525
These things worry me. There's a lot of things that I feel like are just hidden because developers are just eating the cost right now to build
767
00:59:18.120 --> 00:59:20.220
to, like, build out the user base. Right?
768
00:59:20.680 --> 00:59:25.020
Like, Moon Wallet is a perfect example. Like, Moon Wallet's UX is fucking fantastic.
769
00:59:26.005 --> 00:59:34.025
But, like, I don't know how they're doing it without just burning a shit ton of money. They they are. I mean, they I think they're spending a lot of money for user acquisition costs,
770
00:59:34.510 --> 00:59:35.330
And I think
771
00:59:35.630 --> 00:59:40.050
that the mix of, you know, these user these companies figuring out, like,
772
00:59:41.070 --> 00:59:44.585
their flows and how much they want to spend for this user acquisition
773
00:59:45.365 --> 00:59:46.505
versus also,
774
00:59:47.045 --> 00:59:51.560
you know, dealing with the custodial wallets and, you know, dealing with potential
775
00:59:51.940 --> 00:59:52.440
impending,
776
00:59:53.780 --> 00:59:54.680
you know, regulations
777
00:59:54.980 --> 00:59:56.200
and risk there. Like,
778
00:59:57.695 --> 00:59:59.315
a whole bunch of the wallets
779
00:59:59.695 --> 01:00:04.515
that we know and use today might not look the same in even, say, a year's time.
780
01:00:06.730 --> 01:00:10.590
Well, when when the Bitcoin Hyperbit connection happen,
781
01:00:10.970 --> 01:00:12.510
all these issues will vanish.
782
01:00:12.905 --> 01:00:15.885
So we just have to survive until that point.
783
01:00:17.545 --> 01:00:26.120
Yeah. That's true. At least, we're seeing a lot of innovation and, you know, not even 3 months ago, I don't think people were using Mona's mantra. It it wasn't really talked about.
784
01:00:26.580 --> 01:00:30.520
So things are moving really rapidly as far as these custodial and
785
01:00:31.155 --> 01:00:33.255
semi, in quotes, semi custodial
786
01:00:33.555 --> 01:00:34.535
wallets are going.
787
01:00:35.155 --> 01:00:37.734
So, I think there's still a lot of room for experimentation,
788
01:00:38.035 --> 01:00:39.655
and that that's what's happening.
789
01:00:40.470 --> 01:00:45.910
But, you know, don't don't expect things to stay the same or even for your favorite wallet to stick around,
790
01:00:46.550 --> 01:00:57.484
in, say, 2 years. But just to be clear here, that's when we say Moon Wallet, we mean m u u n. Yep. Hopefully, they will change their name so I don't have to fucking say how to spell it every time. But,
791
01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:05.070
what is Moon Moon Wallet with an o? Is there the Yeah. There's a custodial.
792
01:01:05.610 --> 01:01:07.715
Yeah. Yeah. Custodial. Right?
793
01:01:09.235 --> 01:01:11.415
Yeah. I think so. I haven't used their product.
794
01:01:15.635 --> 01:01:16.375
Have you,
795
01:01:17.500 --> 01:01:21.120
yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I I agree. This this is, like, a heavy competitive
796
01:01:21.500 --> 01:01:25.440
market right now for lightning wallets, and and most of them will probably not survive.
797
01:01:27.805 --> 01:01:31.585
But it should be interesting to see how the whole high fee environment works,
798
01:01:32.445 --> 01:01:36.590
with lightning because I feel like it hasn't really been stress tested under that environment yet.
799
01:01:37.950 --> 01:01:38.030
The
800
01:01:39.550 --> 01:01:44.990
and, like, it barely did, like, 2 weeks ago or 3 weeks ago, but I feel like people just stopped doing things. They
801
01:01:54.740 --> 01:01:55.720
talking about
802
01:01:56.180 --> 01:02:01.240
how, ranking systems suck because we're talking about video game ranking systems, and it reminded me
803
01:02:02.875 --> 01:02:03.375
because,
804
01:02:04.715 --> 01:02:09.455
you know, Lightning Labs released this new tool that can let you explore your boss score
805
01:02:09.994 --> 01:02:10.815
last week,
806
01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:17.200
and it's still closed. I it's not open. Like, we don't know how they classify things.
807
01:02:17.740 --> 01:02:20.485
And I, like, tweeted at them in, like, all caps,
808
01:02:21.605 --> 01:02:23.145
because I have, like, 250
809
01:02:23.445 --> 01:02:27.650
peers on that note. And they were, like, 0 of 250 are good peers.
810
01:02:28.369 --> 01:02:33.510
And I was like, you never fuck it. You talk shit about my peers like this, and I'll never forget it.
811
01:02:34.130 --> 01:02:41.005
And and my boss score, like, moved up, like, a 100 points or 200 points after that, and I've got, like, 7 good peers now.
812
01:02:41.705 --> 01:02:43.405
So what you're telling us
813
01:02:43.865 --> 01:02:47.830
is that Oz is the wizard behind the green curtain, and he's just
814
01:02:48.370 --> 01:02:49.910
changing things as he wants.
815
01:02:51.090 --> 01:02:55.325
Yeah. We we need to get buzz on the show. We have too many questions.
816
01:02:55.704 --> 01:02:58.615
If this score if this score is the name of a person.
817
01:02:59.120 --> 01:03:01.940
We we need to try to get as many tips out of him as possible.
818
01:03:03.680 --> 01:03:09.165
If this score has the name of a person, you assume that person is manually requesting that ranking.
819
01:03:11.065 --> 01:03:16.285
But, technically, it stands for balance of satoshis. It has nothing to do with his name. That's just a coincidence.
820
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:20.660
I think it stands for his name too, but he made balance of Satoshis.
821
01:03:21.200 --> 01:03:27.515
No. I'm aware. It's it's a running joke in here. I think one of the reasons my boss score was bad was because we proposed an Odell score.
822
01:03:29.895 --> 01:03:32.155
Yeah. Competing score. That's minus 500.
823
01:03:34.740 --> 01:03:36.680
Yeah. I think you should do it.
824
01:03:38.500 --> 01:03:40.180
But, yeah, I mean, I think we need
825
01:03:41.455 --> 01:03:44.595
like, so what are you what are your thoughts on, like, reputation systems,
826
01:03:45.455 --> 01:03:49.395
for lightning notes? Like, this is this this is something that's essential. Right?
827
01:03:51.060 --> 01:03:51.560
Yeah.
828
01:03:52.100 --> 01:03:59.845
I I like reputation systems. I just don't know how to do them. It's always very hard. Like, a a global ranking is is not
829
01:04:00.805 --> 01:04:02.505
maybe for lightning nodes, it's good.
830
01:04:04.405 --> 01:04:05.325
But the
831
01:04:05.785 --> 01:04:07.145
generally, like, the the
832
01:04:07.650 --> 01:04:08.950
graph of reputation,
833
01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:14.070
I think it works better, but also much harder to build for the stuff.
834
01:04:14.735 --> 01:04:17.635
For Lightning nodes, I the thing I I like about
835
01:04:18.175 --> 01:04:22.355
the thing I wanted to see is, like, if a peer is closing channels
836
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:23.500
because
837
01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:24.700
I hate that.
838
01:04:25.160 --> 01:04:25.660
And
839
01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:27.000
also failing
840
01:04:27.640 --> 01:04:32.825
I don't know what they what they measure that, but they probably don't measure if the peer is closing channels because
841
01:04:34.585 --> 01:04:42.605
I don't know. You you can't know if why a a channel was closed in unless you're watching the logs and understanding all the internals.
842
01:04:43.310 --> 01:04:45.650
So I think that's information is not public.
843
01:04:46.830 --> 01:04:47.970
Yeah. I don't know.
844
01:04:48.350 --> 01:04:50.815
Yeah. It's tricky right now. There's just so many different metrics,
845
01:04:51.295 --> 01:04:53.954
out there, and it's hard to weigh them versus each other.
846
01:04:54.734 --> 01:04:55.555
I think it's,
847
01:04:56.255 --> 01:05:02.830
you know, that that's pretty much why the metrics for BOS aren't public. I think they're still getting ironed out.
848
01:05:04.090 --> 01:05:07.215
You know, even a heavy router like BOS is still trying to figure out
849
01:05:07.695 --> 01:05:08.435
which metrics
850
01:05:09.375 --> 01:05:18.599
together or on their own are most valuable and should be weighted the most. And, yes, it's gonna take a good amount of time more. We're we're gonna need more routing on the network.
851
01:05:19.460 --> 01:05:25.045
And, you know, what what may be a good peer for one person might not necessarily be a good peer for another.
852
01:05:25.505 --> 01:05:28.405
I think a lot of that really depends on
853
01:05:29.345 --> 01:05:33.525
what your flows and the flows of your users are are really looking like.
854
01:05:33.830 --> 01:05:38.490
You know? Like, you wanna make sure that your liquidity is accommodating to the flows that your users
855
01:05:39.110 --> 01:05:41.290
are going through on a regular basis
856
01:05:41.775 --> 01:05:43.155
more so than anything else.
857
01:05:47.055 --> 01:05:47.555
Yeah.
858
01:05:49.150 --> 01:05:52.130
So I have the tweet I pulled the tweet up just because it's fucking hilarious.
859
01:05:55.550 --> 01:05:55.870
The
860
01:05:56.415 --> 01:06:02.575
I mean, I you you mentioned something that was interesting there, Fiat, Jeff. I mean, like, right now, like, it's so
861
01:06:03.375 --> 01:06:04.675
we don't even know,
862
01:06:08.829 --> 01:06:12.609
like, it's so experimental. Like, you can't really like, I have
863
01:06:13.069 --> 01:06:16.235
I have, at least on l and d, like, I'll just have
864
01:06:16.615 --> 01:06:19.755
channels just get closed that I didn't close,
865
01:06:20.295 --> 01:06:21.275
that were just,
866
01:06:22.020 --> 01:06:22.760
you know,
867
01:06:23.460 --> 01:06:25.000
they they they just closed themselves.
868
01:06:25.860 --> 01:06:29.560
And I don't believe that they I at first, I didn't believe they closed themselves,
869
01:06:31.815 --> 01:06:32.315
except
870
01:06:32.855 --> 01:06:39.434
I saw, like, a couple channels closed that, like, were with people that, like, I really trusted, and they, like, swore to me that they didn't close the channel.
871
01:06:40.295 --> 01:06:43.440
Yep. So, like, there's, like, phantom closes happening.
872
01:06:44.859 --> 01:06:48.960
A tour, like, should be Especially when you have that tour only?
873
01:06:49.295 --> 01:06:53.555
Yeah. I I think a lot of people have a lot of issues with that, getting bad circuits.
874
01:06:54.095 --> 01:06:55.395
So this is a screenshot
875
01:06:55.695 --> 01:06:59.900
this is a screenshot from last week, May 11th. Right? And here's the screenshot from today.
876
01:07:02.680 --> 01:07:07.100
How do you jump up so much? Like, I'm green. I'm good. I'm not unstable anymore.
877
01:07:09.285 --> 01:07:12.905
Oh my god. The buzz slider, man. Pretty fucking funny, man.
878
01:07:13.285 --> 01:07:16.825
And they they have way I have way more peers than 176, but whatever.
879
01:07:17.690 --> 01:07:21.390
Yeah. The Tor thing is interesting. Right? Because, like, if you're talking about
880
01:07:24.375 --> 01:07:30.315
if you're talking about sovereign lightning nodes, right, like, they should be running Tor only. But if you're gonna talk about uptime,
881
01:07:33.410 --> 01:07:39.109
you know, obviously, you'd be better off if you're running in, like, Amazon's main server farm in Clearnet.
882
01:07:40.565 --> 01:07:44.345
Yeah. I I just see them as 2 different classes of nodes. It's like you're either,
883
01:07:44.964 --> 01:07:48.184
you know, really into the routing and you're willing to
884
01:07:48.740 --> 01:07:51.000
make yourself public facing on Clearnet
885
01:07:51.700 --> 01:07:56.040
or you're more so catering yourself towards personal use and privacy.
886
01:07:56.815 --> 01:07:57.295
And,
887
01:07:57.775 --> 01:08:03.555
Yeah. I I think they're very much different, and they come with their own unique set of challenges. And,
888
01:08:04.059 --> 01:08:06.319
you know, they're not gonna perform the same,
889
01:08:06.700 --> 01:08:09.280
under the same conditions just because of that network,
890
01:08:09.740 --> 01:08:10.240
alone.
891
01:08:14.744 --> 01:08:15.565
Fucking hilarious.
892
01:08:17.545 --> 01:08:18.045
So,
893
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:24.380
so last week, I accidentally or maybe 2 weeks ago, I accidentally said that you were,
894
01:08:25.480 --> 01:08:26.300
the maintainer
895
01:08:26.679 --> 01:08:29.865
of Fiat Jaffe. I said you were the maintainer of this Immortan,
896
01:08:30.765 --> 01:08:32.185
I guess, lightning implementation,
897
01:08:33.525 --> 01:08:34.505
which you aren't.
898
01:08:35.090 --> 01:08:44.285
But do you wanna talk about it? Like, you're one of the I I you're the one who brought it to my attention. So Do we know for sure, though? I mean, Fiat Jaff is a NIM. Okay?
899
01:08:44.685 --> 01:08:45.185
So,
900
01:08:45.485 --> 01:08:47.105
like, who's to say for sure?
901
01:08:48.525 --> 01:08:49.025
Well,
902
01:08:49.645 --> 01:08:52.625
I would I would love to be the author of this, but, I'm not.
903
01:08:56.110 --> 01:09:03.325
And, well, I can't I can't speak. You you should try to get Anton here on the show on the show, but he he won't give interviews to anyone, I think.
904
01:09:05.165 --> 01:09:06.385
So I'm I'm trying my best.
905
01:09:07.325 --> 01:09:08.865
The the idea is that,
906
01:09:09.485 --> 01:09:12.225
like, the POW was a was a
907
01:09:12.610 --> 01:09:15.910
custom implementation tool. People say it was based on a clear,
908
01:09:16.450 --> 01:09:17.670
like, open on Saturday
909
01:09:18.210 --> 01:09:19.110
last week, but,
910
01:09:19.570 --> 01:09:20.895
it it isn't really.
911
01:09:21.375 --> 01:09:29.955
It it he just took the the cryptographic functions and encoding functions from a clear, but all the the logic, the lightning logic is is custom.
912
01:09:30.330 --> 01:09:32.590
And he's doing it again on Immorton.
913
01:09:34.250 --> 01:09:35.390
Basically, he says,
914
01:09:36.250 --> 01:09:44.285
Immorton has 2 difference, 2 key differences from from the BOW. 1 is that it has hosted channels, like, in a more prominent
915
01:09:44.905 --> 01:09:45.405
space.
916
01:09:46.265 --> 01:09:46.765
And
917
01:09:47.400 --> 01:09:52.380
the hosted channels on on BLW, like, the v one hosted channels, they were just
918
01:09:53.080 --> 01:09:53.820
on the
919
01:09:54.255 --> 01:09:55.554
on the edges of
920
01:09:55.934 --> 01:09:59.875
you you you only have a hosted channel between your BOW and a nuclear server.
921
01:10:00.655 --> 01:10:08.500
And with Martin, he created a parallel network of hosted channels that can route payments. So you can have,
922
01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:09.780
2 Eclairs
923
01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:11.780
and a hosting channel between them,
924
01:10:12.365 --> 01:10:14.705
and they can sit in the middle of a route,
925
01:10:15.085 --> 01:10:17.265
and you can initiate a a payment
926
01:10:17.645 --> 01:10:19.665
from your Immorton based wallet
927
01:10:19.965 --> 01:10:25.480
that passes through that hosted channel. You can't advertise that channel on the on the global
928
01:10:25.780 --> 01:10:27.960
channel lightning channel graph because,
929
01:10:29.220 --> 01:10:29.960
it requires
930
01:10:30.340 --> 01:10:36.075
the the the the protocol requires you to have an on chain utic so for that. But he made a
931
01:10:37.015 --> 01:10:41.340
separate gossip mechanism for to announce these channels, and, the Immorta wallet
932
01:10:42.280 --> 01:10:49.180
understands that. And also the eclair hosted channels plug in understand that. So they they know about the channel. Once you know that
933
01:10:56.645 --> 01:11:00.300
thing, Like, he's very he loves trampoline routing now.
934
01:11:02.599 --> 01:11:04.139
And using trampoline routing,
935
01:11:05.304 --> 01:11:06.684
one one note can
936
01:11:07.385 --> 01:11:12.764
outsource. Like, they can they can route a payment through your immortal mobile wallet.
937
01:11:13.090 --> 01:11:15.349
So if your if your mobile wallet is online,
938
01:11:16.690 --> 01:11:18.150
you'll connect to a node,
939
01:11:19.090 --> 01:11:22.389
and the node if the node understands that trampoline thing,
940
01:11:23.125 --> 01:11:25.304
they can route the payment through through you
941
01:11:25.605 --> 01:11:26.665
to another place,
942
01:11:27.125 --> 01:11:32.105
like, using another channel you your mobile wallet has. So it's good for the beer
943
01:11:32.540 --> 01:11:33.040
that
944
01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:39.760
they if it it can be like a hosted channel or a normal channel between the the immortal node and the
945
01:11:40.105 --> 01:11:40.605
server.
946
01:11:41.705 --> 01:11:47.085
It's good for the peer that the sets don't get stuck in that channel because on a normal,
947
01:11:47.785 --> 01:11:49.325
on a normal mobile wallet,
948
01:11:50.090 --> 01:11:52.670
if someone opens a channel to that wallet or
949
01:11:53.210 --> 01:12:00.475
the the wallet opens a channel to to that to that note, the sets, they they're stuck there. Like, between your Breeze Wallet and the Breeze
950
01:12:02.295 --> 01:12:06.395
server, there's a channel, and the Breeze server has sets on that channel,
951
01:12:06.900 --> 01:12:13.560
but they can't get the sets out unless they close the channel. So they they're there. But if using this this technique,
952
01:12:14.020 --> 01:12:15.639
you can send a payment
953
01:12:16.525 --> 01:12:22.705
from the server to the wallet and then to elsewhere. So you can clean up your your sets from that channel.
954
01:12:23.244 --> 01:12:24.784
Anyway, I hope that's clear.
955
01:12:25.550 --> 01:12:27.570
So that these 2 big improvements.
956
01:12:27.950 --> 01:12:29.970
Also also the ability to
957
01:12:30.510 --> 01:12:32.690
I'm not sure this is doable right now.
958
01:12:33.150 --> 01:12:34.130
Actually, it is.
959
01:12:34.625 --> 01:12:36.965
Like, the ability to the ability to
960
01:12:38.625 --> 01:12:43.125
send a payment that passes through a private channel and then goes on,
961
01:12:43.650 --> 01:12:45.510
that breaks the the heuristic,
962
01:12:46.770 --> 01:12:53.025
that's like a private channel is always the end of the payment because you don't know maybe now that payment will still go on.
963
01:12:53.824 --> 01:13:00.405
So it's good for privacy, very good for privacy. Drake's one of the big problems of Lightning privacy that Anthony
964
01:13:01.470 --> 01:13:02.290
talked about.
965
01:13:02.830 --> 01:13:03.730
Well, I mean,
966
01:13:04.590 --> 01:13:05.470
to break it down
967
01:13:06.990 --> 01:13:08.290
so so,
968
01:13:08.675 --> 01:13:10.535
basically, all of our Lightning implementations
969
01:13:11.235 --> 01:13:13.495
so far have been focused on,
970
01:13:15.395 --> 01:13:19.250
full node users, This idea that you use your own node, and it's almost like
971
01:13:20.270 --> 01:13:33.275
after the fact, after like, a second tier of user is the user who's gonna be a light user, and, you know, we'll make these different trade offs to to make that possible for them to use it without their own node. While Immortan seems like
972
01:13:34.370 --> 01:13:39.030
just an acceptance that not every user is gonna use their own node, so there should be a
973
01:13:39.490 --> 01:13:47.405
implementation that's focused on on light users, users that aren't using their own node. Right? Like, from the ground up, it should be focused on that and those trade offs.
974
01:13:48.329 --> 01:13:52.590
I wouldn't say that users that use your own node, but, like, the lightning
975
01:13:53.369 --> 01:14:03.505
implementation are focused on servers, I think. Right. Those nodes are online all the time. And then they they they realized you could have Lightning note wallets on on phones.
976
01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:07.980
But I think, like, BOW lets you use your own Bitcoin node.
977
01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:14.875
By default, it doesn't, but you can point to your own Bitcoin node. Maybe Mortem will too.
978
01:14:15.735 --> 01:14:21.040
So, yeah, you can still use your your own node, but it's focused on the the lite mobile
979
01:14:22.060 --> 01:14:22.560
wallet.
980
01:14:25.905 --> 01:14:26.405
So,
981
01:14:29.744 --> 01:14:33.045
Evan, you you have any comments here before we move on from a modem?
982
01:14:34.730 --> 01:14:48.275
No. I'm just really looking forward to it coming out and people being able to mess around with it. So definitely something I would explore and then wanna play around with. I know a lot of people wanna get some white client wallet rolling.
983
01:14:49.700 --> 01:14:53.080
It's exciting. It might be a really good solution alongside,
984
01:14:53.700 --> 01:14:56.920
you know, rolling your own L and D or messing with rust lightning.
985
01:14:58.055 --> 01:15:02.875
Yeah. We we'd really love to play around with it. I mean, it's interesting. Right? Because, like,
986
01:15:05.610 --> 01:15:10.430
I mean, there's, like, roles to play for all these things. I mean, I run I I run 2 247
987
01:15:11.450 --> 01:15:13.950
Lightning nodes. I use Zeus to connect to them.
988
01:15:14.765 --> 01:15:23.680
But at the end of the day, like, if I'm gonna accept a quick payment or something, like, I I prefer to use Moon. Like, it's just it's just cleaner. I like that it's just all built in. You know?
989
01:15:24.480 --> 01:15:31.060
And I feel like there's something to be said there about something like a Morden if if you have something that's literally designed for,
990
01:15:34.065 --> 01:15:42.165
basically, mobile users. Right? And then then I don't have to deal with, you know, my tour circuit working or any of that shit, and I can I can leave the heavy lifting
991
01:15:42.530 --> 01:15:45.110
for those notes at a different time if I want?
992
01:15:46.370 --> 01:15:51.430
Yeah. I mean, it's perfectly normal to have different, you know, risk profiles for different kinds of payments.
993
01:15:51.915 --> 01:15:56.575
You know what I mean? If I'm just trying to accept a cool $10, $20 at the bar from a friend,
994
01:15:57.035 --> 01:16:03.680
you know, there's nothing wrong with throwing that on a custodial wall. Right. I'm not gonna use my fucking routing node to fucking accept that payment. Like, that's ridiculous.
995
01:16:04.060 --> 01:16:09.760
And I'm gonna dox my public key to him, you know, at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone that he shares it with by accident.
996
01:16:10.264 --> 01:16:13.724
Yeah. And, you know, things are constantly changing. It's gonna be easier
997
01:16:14.025 --> 01:16:22.889
with these new routing types to get receiver privacy, but, you know, things are are sort of hairy right now. So it's
998
01:16:23.190 --> 01:16:27.290
completely to normal to be using different wallets for different function.
999
01:16:28.185 --> 01:16:32.285
Do you think do you think lnbig is evil? And the fact that lnbig is sponsoring
1000
01:16:32.825 --> 01:16:34.605
Morten makes it evil too.
1001
01:16:36.610 --> 01:16:39.190
Oh, Ellen Bigg, not yeah. Ellen Bigg. Right?
1002
01:16:39.650 --> 01:16:40.150
Yeah.
1003
01:16:40.770 --> 01:16:46.230
I mean, I think it doesn't make him Morten evil, but it also doesn't make Ellen Bigg not evil.
1004
01:16:47.635 --> 01:16:49.095
Why do you think it's evil?
1005
01:16:49.795 --> 01:16:56.420
I mean, I'm not saying that Ellen Big is evil, but I'm saying that we should be skeptic like, I feel like there's a lot of Bitcoin promoters,
1006
01:16:57.040 --> 01:17:00.560
you know, on on Twitter and stuff. Like, look. I don't know if you guys can see,
1007
01:17:01.200 --> 01:17:06.344
on the top left hand corner, we can see, like, all the how many freaks are tuning in through the live,
1008
01:17:07.605 --> 01:17:08.344
live streams.
1009
01:17:08.804 --> 01:17:12.824
It shows the total number of freaks. I'm not sure if they show that to you. Do they show that to you?
1010
01:17:13.790 --> 01:17:16.130
I don't see it. Well, anyway,
1011
01:17:17.150 --> 01:17:20.450
when we were talking about Elon and the price and shit,
1012
01:17:20.805 --> 01:17:27.385
we were fucking 10 x where we are right now. Right? Like, when you get when you get, like, an hour and a half into, like, a technical conversation,
1013
01:17:28.805 --> 01:17:33.660
you only have the ride or dies left. And and and the hidden secret with Bitcoin
1014
01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:37.340
is, you know, if you if you care about engagement,
1015
01:17:38.025 --> 01:17:45.165
the two things that that work for you are either heavy fear or which doesn't even work as well, but the real thing that works
1016
01:17:45.545 --> 01:17:47.630
is just heavy bullishness. You just
1017
01:17:47.949 --> 01:17:55.969
you put bullishness on everything, which is why, like, this is a technical show, but I constantly reiterate in that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Right? Because you gotta tow the line.
1018
01:17:57.934 --> 01:18:01.715
But so so the issue is the the issue that you see is,
1019
01:18:03.215 --> 01:18:05.474
you see people ignore these things
1020
01:18:06.030 --> 01:18:08.050
that, you know, bingo, nuance
1021
01:18:08.590 --> 01:18:20.025
that that, you know, we should be critical of and we should be concerned about. And the big thing for me for a while and still is is that Ellen Big has, like, half the public capacity of the network.
1022
01:18:20.350 --> 01:18:21.810
It's a little bit less now,
1023
01:18:23.390 --> 01:18:33.255
and everyone just glosses that over when they're set talking about public capacity numbers. Right? And if you mix it with Ellen Big and then you do, like, the top 3 regulated KYC services
1024
01:18:33.875 --> 01:18:37.975
that are on lightning, right, then you're, like, 75% of the network's public capacity
1025
01:18:38.870 --> 01:18:45.910
are these, you know, the small group of of institutions, and we have no idea who LN Big is. So it could very well be
1026
01:18:46.615 --> 01:18:57.340
you know, I've heard people speculate and I really don't have any desire to speculate, but I've heard people speculate it's like a a rich Russian Bitcoiner who just wants to see the lightning network grow and is throwing a bunch of money in.
1027
01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:02.540
I respect that. That would be awesome. You know? I mean, I I'm not, you know,
1028
01:19:03.080 --> 01:19:13.244
I don't have his kind of money, and I'm not Russian, but I did similar with our stacking stats note. I just threw a shit ton of money into it, to just try and jump start the whole thing and encourage people to,
1029
01:19:13.600 --> 01:19:15.699
you know, experiment with these kind of things.
1030
01:19:16.239 --> 01:19:19.460
But at the end of the day, whoever this unknown entity is is running,
1031
01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:20.580
you know,
1032
01:19:21.034 --> 01:19:29.480
tens, like, 50 nodes all in from the same, like, server farm that's, like, in Langley, Virginia, like, right next to where the CIA's base is.
1033
01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:36.855
And and, like, there's only, like, 3 of us that call it out that's that ever fucking talk about it. No one talks about it.
1034
01:19:38.695 --> 01:19:40.715
So what you're saying is operate
1035
01:19:41.015 --> 01:19:42.875
as if Ellen Big is
1036
01:19:43.495 --> 01:19:43.995
CIA?
1037
01:19:44.810 --> 01:19:46.750
Or something, you know, something malicious.
1038
01:19:47.210 --> 01:19:55.265
I think I think you should I mean, not saying one way or the other for sure, but, yeah, why not make that presumption and stay on the the cautious
1039
01:19:55.805 --> 01:19:59.105
side? Like, when a morn comes out, we gotta review that code. Come on.
1040
01:20:01.325 --> 01:20:02.730
Yeah. And, like, the the
1041
01:20:03.030 --> 01:20:08.570
the analogy that I brought up in the the past is, like, tour is funded by 3 letter agencies. Right?
1042
01:20:09.555 --> 01:20:16.135
So it doesn't mean that, you know, Tor is inherently bad, but it doesn't make the 3 letter agencies any better for funding it.
1043
01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:20.220
I mean, they benefit off the anonymity
1044
01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:23.980
and the the anonymity set that it creates.
1045
01:20:24.360 --> 01:20:24.860
So
1046
01:20:26.485 --> 01:20:32.105
it makes sense. It doesn't really devalue it really if you could verify what it actually does, but,
1047
01:20:32.780 --> 01:20:36.560
you know Well, it does it does put into question it makes you think, like,
1048
01:20:37.020 --> 01:20:44.055
it makes a lot of sense that Tor is not, you know, designed for an environment where the US government is adversarial towards it.
1049
01:20:44.755 --> 01:20:48.215
Right? And, like, there there was never designed that way. And
1050
01:20:48.860 --> 01:20:53.599
I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, the money behind it happens to be the US government. Right?
1051
01:20:54.300 --> 01:20:59.265
I mean, listen, well, we know the flaws in Tor. You know, anyone could set up these these
1052
01:21:00.365 --> 01:21:01.905
these output nodes. Right?
1053
01:21:03.645 --> 01:21:06.465
You know, that they could be just pound overnight. Right?
1054
01:21:06.845 --> 01:21:11.350
But we go do mostly, it it serves our purposes really well.
1055
01:21:12.050 --> 01:21:14.630
Well, anyway, that's my little rant on Ellen Bigg.
1056
01:21:16.735 --> 01:21:19.395
And we had Anthony in the comments defending them.
1057
01:21:20.015 --> 01:21:23.535
We should be more concerned about all the random nodes than Ellen Bigg. I've
1058
01:21:24.495 --> 01:21:24.995
why?
1059
01:21:27.350 --> 01:21:36.330
Yeah. I don't know. I'm very naive of these things. Like, it it looks like a Russian guy with money that wants to help Lightning, and I believe that
1060
01:21:36.935 --> 01:21:41.275
because I'm very naive. I also believe Satoshi Nakamoto is a young Japanese boy.
1061
01:21:44.855 --> 01:21:45.675
So that's
1062
01:21:47.460 --> 01:21:50.039
my imagination is it. It's very
1063
01:21:51.940 --> 01:21:52.440
Yeah.
1064
01:21:53.875 --> 01:21:55.255
Young Japanese boy.
1065
01:21:56.434 --> 01:21:58.775
I'm, I'm on board with that theory.
1066
01:21:59.715 --> 01:22:00.215
At
1067
01:22:01.155 --> 01:22:03.380
least we know, Ellen, but it's hard to
1068
01:22:18.605 --> 01:22:19.745
They're talking about Alan.
1069
01:22:20.500 --> 01:22:24.600
Yeah. Langley is just fucking with us. Yeah. You're coming in and out a little bit.
1070
01:22:27.355 --> 01:22:30.255
Yeah. It's it's absolutely because of talking about Allan Vic.
1071
01:22:30.875 --> 01:22:31.375
But,
1072
01:22:32.395 --> 01:22:35.375
yeah, I mean, as far as, like, connecting to a random node,
1073
01:22:36.390 --> 01:22:39.370
you know, can you hear me now? No. There we go.
1074
01:22:40.150 --> 01:22:41.050
Yeah. You're back.
1075
01:22:41.429 --> 01:22:42.650
I think. Apologies.
1076
01:22:43.245 --> 01:22:48.465
Yeah. We were disconnected. I was disconnected for a little while there, so I apologize to the freaks if if it was disjointing.
1077
01:22:49.885 --> 01:22:52.225
You on the satellite Internet this week, Matt?
1078
01:22:53.010 --> 01:22:54.550
Actually, don't answer that too.
1079
01:22:56.370 --> 01:23:01.750
We started talking about it again, and we used the Langley keyword, and then all of a sudden, everything just starts going down.
1080
01:23:02.985 --> 01:23:03.485
Yeah.
1081
01:23:04.665 --> 01:23:05.725
Or for the course.
1082
01:23:06.905 --> 01:23:10.284
If you keep disconnecting you, we won't invite you next week.
1083
01:23:10.679 --> 01:23:14.300
Yeah. Next time we got it, we'll invite some guests on. Don't worry, Matt.
1084
01:23:15.239 --> 01:23:16.619
We'll appreciate that.
1085
01:23:18.925 --> 01:23:28.545
Yeah. So, I mean, I I just want more conversation about Ellen Big. I just the the, you know, whatever. I'm not I'm not trying to be conspiratorily here, but I I just think, you know, if
1086
01:23:29.119 --> 01:23:36.500
you gotta discount you gotta at least discount the public capacity that's provided by LNB because it's all provided by a single entity. Right? So
1087
01:23:40.405 --> 01:23:40.905
let's
1088
01:23:41.445 --> 01:23:50.150
stay on the note of random nodes, though. And Anthony makes a pretty good point in that you sorta have to trust all your counterparties
1089
01:23:50.450 --> 01:23:51.670
on lightning. Right?
1090
01:23:52.290 --> 01:23:55.990
You're trusting them to not close your channel at an inconvenient time.
1091
01:23:56.325 --> 01:24:00.105
But, also, if you're routing payments through them and they're your first hop out,
1092
01:24:01.285 --> 01:24:02.344
they're gonna know,
1093
01:24:02.805 --> 01:24:05.310
you know, that's coming from you and
1094
01:24:05.929 --> 01:24:20.955
where it's going next. Right? So you're trusting them in that regard. Yeah. But they don't they don't know if you're the one originating that payment. No. No. They know that you're just passing something along. Yeah. But still, it adds up. If you end up using a route multiple times,
1095
01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:25.139
they can start, you know, creating a profile on you of some sort.
1096
01:24:26.159 --> 01:24:26.980
So while,
1097
01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:29.139
you have some
1098
01:24:29.465 --> 01:24:37.325
guarantees and that, you know, it's not necessarily coming from you, you could be another hop in the net. They could start still start making some assumptions about you.
1099
01:24:39.980 --> 01:24:44.000
So for the most part, I'd say on land, it's better to have counterparties that you trust.
1100
01:24:49.425 --> 01:24:49.925
Yeah.
1101
01:24:50.784 --> 01:24:53.685
Yeah. From multiple reasons, I think.
1102
01:24:55.870 --> 01:24:57.890
I mean, it's a little bit weird. Right? Because,
1103
01:24:58.430 --> 01:25:05.785
I mean, we were so I I feel like we were sold that it was, you know, that wasn't the case. Right? It was just it was, like, poor
1104
01:25:06.805 --> 01:25:07.945
expectation management.
1105
01:25:08.645 --> 01:25:10.825
I I think, like, big words like,
1106
01:25:11.285 --> 01:25:13.545
like, trustless in nature got
1107
01:25:14.590 --> 01:25:15.250
and whatnot.
1108
01:25:15.950 --> 01:25:20.690
And, also, things getting learned on the fly as we have this new experimental network
1109
01:25:21.265 --> 01:25:23.525
that really only been around, what, 3 years now.
1110
01:25:24.304 --> 01:25:28.245
We're still learning things, you know, every day, really, like new
1111
01:25:28.625 --> 01:25:29.870
Yes. And it's like,
1112
01:25:30.350 --> 01:25:35.650
hell, even Anthony's deep dive on privacy. Like, no one's really done that till since, you know, last week.
1113
01:25:36.110 --> 01:25:38.610
You know, this is a really nascent network, and
1114
01:25:39.645 --> 01:25:42.465
I wouldn't blame that part really much as, like,
1115
01:25:42.844 --> 01:25:46.704
you know, bad marketing or, like, fraudulent marketing like other product
1116
01:25:47.099 --> 01:25:52.239
products in the space have, but more so not really knowing all the constraints of it out the gate.
1117
01:25:54.195 --> 01:25:58.775
Touch touch dryer tells a story. I I heard him saying this on some podcast
1118
01:25:59.315 --> 01:25:59.815
that
1119
01:26:00.515 --> 01:26:05.740
like, touch dryer and Joseph Phung, I think, the the guys that invented the Light Net Network.
1120
01:26:06.360 --> 01:26:06.860
Uh-huh.
1121
01:26:07.720 --> 01:26:16.125
Yep. Desiree, like, he he he tells something like that. Joseph was very excited in saying that. I think he even says that in the original presentation,
1122
01:26:16.745 --> 01:26:18.845
the from 2,000 and 15,
1123
01:26:19.305 --> 01:26:22.285
that lightning network will allow us to route,
1124
01:26:22.719 --> 01:26:27.060
like, dozens of millions of, I don't know, a very large number and
1125
01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:31.860
made all that hype about it while while Tej was very
1126
01:26:32.495 --> 01:26:39.875
cultures and didn't he says he didn't really believe it was going to be such a such a powerful thing.
1127
01:26:40.310 --> 01:26:42.570
And then Josephine went to material.
1128
01:26:43.510 --> 01:26:44.250
So that's
1129
01:26:44.790 --> 01:26:47.050
common, like, expected behavior.
1130
01:26:47.665 --> 01:26:50.805
Yeah. I mean, we have NVK on the show a lot, and he's you know,
1131
01:26:51.185 --> 01:26:53.585
he makes an interesting point. I mean, I I don't know if it's
1132
01:26:55.260 --> 01:26:55.920
it's just
1133
01:26:56.300 --> 01:26:58.719
a lot of aspects of of the lightning ecosystem
1134
01:26:59.020 --> 01:27:01.039
feel a little bit shit coiny, you know,
1135
01:27:02.135 --> 01:27:04.695
or, like, less adversarial. It's it doesn't,
1136
01:27:05.175 --> 01:27:06.955
and that's not to degrade the
1137
01:27:07.575 --> 01:27:10.875
the devs who work on it all the time. I mean, I have so much respect,
1138
01:27:11.970 --> 01:27:16.710
for all the devs that are are contributing to lightning projects and making it more robust.
1139
01:27:18.610 --> 01:27:22.845
But it does it it's like the portion of Bitcoin that's, like, less adversarial. Right?
1140
01:27:23.385 --> 01:27:25.405
It's like our it's like our fun
1141
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:37.035
sandbox where you can do all these different things and kinda you you know, hashtag reckless. Right? Like, imagine if, like, Bitcoin core devs were like, oh, run Bitcoin core, you know, hashtag reckless.
1142
01:27:37.575 --> 01:27:42.155
Like, that would be ridiculous. Like, leave all your funds in the hot wallet. You know what I mean?
1143
01:27:42.610 --> 01:27:51.910
But, no. I mean, listen. It's it's supposed to be your checking account. Right? This is their funds that you wanna be able to move at a moment's notice.
1144
01:27:52.515 --> 01:27:58.055
And, there's a trade off in the security model to accommodate for that. Yeah? Right. So
1145
01:27:58.915 --> 01:28:01.335
it's definitely not where you wanna have
1146
01:28:02.139 --> 01:28:08.835
the majority of your savings on. Right? You know, it's just like what you're trying to to move in your month or whatever
1147
01:28:10.114 --> 01:28:15.495
Until the next time you have to rebalance or or open new channel channels. You know?
1148
01:28:17.555 --> 01:28:18.055
Right.
1149
01:28:20.570 --> 01:28:26.110
Okay. So, I mean, on to the next topic. While we have you here, Fia, Jeff, you have this project
1150
01:28:26.765 --> 01:28:28.525
that I'm gonna butcher the name,
1151
01:28:30.525 --> 01:28:31.025
antetilineum?
1152
01:28:32.284 --> 01:28:32.784
Antilium?
1153
01:28:34.045 --> 01:28:34.545
Atlinium.
1154
01:28:35.380 --> 01:28:35.880
Atlinium.
1155
01:28:36.740 --> 01:28:42.805
Horrible name, dude. It's a really bad name. So you wanna talk to the freaks about what it is and why they should care?
1156
01:28:44.325 --> 01:28:46.345
I'm not sure they should care. I the
1157
01:28:48.725 --> 01:28:50.425
the the idea of smart contracts,
1158
01:28:51.845 --> 01:28:52.610
it it's
1159
01:28:53.090 --> 01:28:55.670
was on my mind for a long time, and
1160
01:28:56.530 --> 01:29:00.869
I I realized that they they could be useful, like, as a programmable
1161
01:29:02.305 --> 01:29:02.805
escrow,
1162
01:29:03.425 --> 01:29:03.925
like,
1163
01:29:04.305 --> 01:29:10.645
they could you put money in there and something happens, and people can trust that. They don't have to
1164
01:29:10.980 --> 01:29:13.080
trust absolutely, but they can trust
1165
01:29:13.620 --> 01:29:18.725
that the person there's not a person interested in, like, that can steal from that
1166
01:29:19.285 --> 01:29:21.225
from that contract, that escrow.
1167
01:29:22.565 --> 01:29:23.865
So I made this,
1168
01:29:24.565 --> 01:29:26.345
this explanation was terrible.
1169
01:29:27.489 --> 01:29:29.030
But the idea is that you can
1170
01:29:30.050 --> 01:29:39.905
it's like Ethereum, but on Ethereum, you have an escrow that is the the Ethereum network and the the nodes and the validation and the miners and so on. In this case, it's the same, but
1171
01:29:40.365 --> 01:29:41.825
this grow is a server
1172
01:29:42.205 --> 01:29:43.105
that I run.
1173
01:29:43.760 --> 01:29:48.020
And other people can post their their contracts there. Like, they write
1174
01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:52.260
some lines of code, and then they have a smart escrow
1175
01:29:52.895 --> 01:29:56.195
that they can use for other things. And someone
1176
01:29:56.575 --> 01:30:02.630
using that doesn't have to trust the person who wrote the code. They only have to trust me in this case,
1177
01:30:04.610 --> 01:30:13.215
and that's it. So it's like a it's it's I mean, it's a flex on Ethereum. You're saying we can do what what you do, and you as long as you add this trusted third party.
1178
01:30:13.915 --> 01:30:21.130
But but because this trusted third party it's like the uncle Jim model. Right? Like, the trusted third party can have competition. There's a bunch of different providers.
1179
01:30:21.670 --> 01:30:22.570
You know, ideally,
1180
01:30:23.430 --> 01:30:25.130
there aren't, but if there were,
1181
01:30:25.670 --> 01:30:29.755
then you could get away with that trust model more. Is that the that's the argument basically. Right?
1182
01:30:30.295 --> 01:30:31.595
The the the argument
1183
01:30:32.055 --> 01:30:33.275
is is like
1184
01:30:33.815 --> 01:30:36.075
separating the the person who that
1185
01:30:36.730 --> 01:30:37.949
ensures you that,
1186
01:30:38.489 --> 01:30:46.575
like, guarantees your money, like, holds your money and guarantees that some code will be run. Separating that from the person who wrote the code.
1187
01:30:47.515 --> 01:30:49.855
Right. And then and to me, I mean,
1188
01:30:50.555 --> 01:30:51.935
the simple use case
1189
01:30:53.120 --> 01:30:56.260
is is this prediction market betting use case.
1190
01:30:57.040 --> 01:31:00.980
Yeah. I've I've been trying to make a ton of small apps to showcase it.
1191
01:31:01.535 --> 01:31:02.035
Yeah.
1192
01:31:03.295 --> 01:31:03.795
Yeah.
1193
01:31:04.175 --> 01:31:09.155
That one makes the most sense to me. There's a lot of there should be a lot of demand there. Why is no one using it?
1194
01:31:09.940 --> 01:31:12.119
I don't think it's very good. Like, the incentives
1195
01:31:12.659 --> 01:31:18.199
are not very good. You you I had to make another one that uses a different calculation for the
1196
01:31:18.755 --> 01:31:20.135
for the market, like
1197
01:31:20.835 --> 01:31:21.335
because
1198
01:31:21.715 --> 01:31:25.095
otherwise, you you pay you you can't buy a lot of shares.
1199
01:31:25.875 --> 01:31:27.080
Otherwise, you pay up
1200
01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:29.980
the the the probability will go sky
1201
01:31:30.440 --> 01:31:40.455
high. So you have to buy 1, buy a few shares and tell someone else to buy the others, but it still works like that way. Like, it's it has a market is market,
1202
01:31:41.074 --> 01:31:42.935
automated market maker thing
1203
01:31:43.715 --> 01:31:44.215
that,
1204
01:31:44.860 --> 01:31:45.360
like,
1205
01:31:47.260 --> 01:31:47.760
just
1206
01:31:48.139 --> 01:31:50.239
you don't need another book for that.
1207
01:31:50.540 --> 01:31:54.755
So it's good in that way. But on the other hand, it's not very optimized for
1208
01:31:55.775 --> 01:32:00.195
large volumes. And also the idea that the person who created the the contract
1209
01:32:01.219 --> 01:32:03.320
resolves it is not ideal.
1210
01:32:04.340 --> 01:32:05.640
Like, the person who
1211
01:32:06.739 --> 01:32:12.375
there should definitely be another way. Yeah. The discrete log contract guys are trying to solve that, right,
1212
01:32:12.755 --> 01:32:16.070
where the Oracle is a separate person, doesn't know what the bets are.
1213
01:32:16.949 --> 01:32:18.570
But I I do feel like,
1214
01:32:19.909 --> 01:32:22.550
I mean, when I got into Bitcoin, my first use case
1215
01:32:23.110 --> 01:32:24.165
I mean, I think,
1216
01:32:24.565 --> 01:32:35.420
you know, the obvious use case was was gambling. Right? I mean, you had Satoshi Dice, but you also had we had Black Tuesday in America where they basically just, like, cut off all the online betting sites.
1217
01:32:37.400 --> 01:32:43.685
And, yeah, like, it's, you know, online betting now in the United States has become, you know, more legal, and you have the
1218
01:32:44.385 --> 01:32:48.325
you know, you have Portnoy playing in it with Penn Gaming, and you have DraftKings,
1219
01:32:49.130 --> 01:32:51.869
and, you know, you you have Yahoo, you have all these different
1220
01:32:52.329 --> 01:32:54.750
regulated services that offer online betting.
1221
01:32:55.290 --> 01:32:55.790
But,
1222
01:32:58.485 --> 01:33:02.665
to me, there's this massive demand for, you know, no k y c, frictionless
1223
01:33:03.525 --> 01:33:04.585
Bitcoin gambling,
1224
01:33:05.150 --> 01:33:09.810
whether that's, you know we can call it gambling or we can call it prediction markets. It's the same shit.
1225
01:33:11.710 --> 01:33:12.210
And
1226
01:33:13.345 --> 01:33:18.565
it's like everyone's just trying to reinvent the wheel almost. You know? It's like I've I've been in the space for
1227
01:33:19.105 --> 01:33:20.165
8 plus years,
1228
01:33:22.430 --> 01:33:25.970
and everyone's trying to overcomplicate it. Like, I just need, like,
1229
01:33:26.750 --> 01:33:29.090
a a relatively simple liquid site
1230
01:33:29.705 --> 01:33:37.965
that's not not like liquid Bitcoin, like, a site that has enough volume. Right? That that I don't care if it's centralized. You know? Let me just bet with lightning,
1231
01:33:38.490 --> 01:33:40.110
get in and out of my bets easily,
1232
01:33:40.810 --> 01:33:42.910
call it a day. Like, I don't you know?
1233
01:33:43.290 --> 01:33:47.710
What do you wanna bet on? Like sports or Well, the big one in America
1234
01:33:48.055 --> 01:33:49.835
the big one in America is Americans
1235
01:33:50.135 --> 01:33:53.595
aren't legally allowed to gamble on elections. So,
1236
01:33:54.935 --> 01:33:59.590
all those regulated services I just mentioned simply cannot have any election bets.
1237
01:34:00.050 --> 01:34:03.190
Right? So we had this major election come and go,
1238
01:34:03.570 --> 01:34:08.815
and there was, like, nobody was offering it. Like, the Ethereum guys have, like, this super complicated augur.
1239
01:34:09.195 --> 01:34:16.060
You know, the DLC guys are talking about DLCs left and right, discreet log contracts, but you couldn't there was no easy way to bet on it.
1240
01:34:17.420 --> 01:34:21.440
That was a failure in my mind. Right? Like, that's that's ridiculous that it's 2021.
1241
01:34:22.540 --> 01:34:29.865
So there there's 2 problems there. One is the the order book thing. The the liquidity is important, as you said, but it's very hard to get.
1242
01:34:30.325 --> 01:34:33.305
And and if you do the order book thing,
1243
01:34:34.190 --> 01:34:35.090
it's impossible
1244
01:34:35.550 --> 01:34:43.675
because no one's going to put orders on the site without liquidity. And when someone one joins the site, they don't find any orders, so so empty.
1245
01:34:43.975 --> 01:34:44.475
So
1246
01:34:44.935 --> 01:34:53.890
it's very hard to to get going. So the automated market makes a thing. It it solves that part, but I think no one has used it on the wild.
1247
01:34:54.510 --> 01:34:56.050
It's, I copied
1248
01:34:56.350 --> 01:34:58.050
the the code from the Hivemind
1249
01:34:58.670 --> 01:34:59.170
project.
1250
01:35:00.295 --> 01:35:02.235
And the other problem is that the law
1251
01:35:02.695 --> 01:35:04.075
rate. You you could have
1252
01:35:04.535 --> 01:35:05.035
yeah.
1253
01:35:05.735 --> 01:35:09.520
When when this this market start to getting to get interesting,
1254
01:35:10.619 --> 01:35:12.320
they always they always fail.
1255
01:35:12.699 --> 01:35:18.764
They always like, the government always shut them down. And you could do if you watch the the post tours,
1256
01:35:19.385 --> 01:35:20.525
presentation on Hivemind,
1257
01:35:22.344 --> 01:35:26.390
you can do a ton of interesting things with this with this betting market.
1258
01:35:27.090 --> 01:35:33.110
And you can do conditional betting, and you you can, like, extract a lot of knowledge from the society,
1259
01:35:34.415 --> 01:35:37.075
from from these markets using these markets.
1260
01:35:37.775 --> 01:35:42.990
But the problem is that the law will always be against it. So you need a system like Bitcoin,
1261
01:35:43.690 --> 01:35:44.910
I think, for this.
1262
01:35:45.450 --> 01:35:47.390
I think a system that is very
1263
01:35:48.810 --> 01:35:49.950
censorship resistant.
1264
01:35:51.495 --> 01:35:57.515
So, yeah, we don't predict on market. Predict on market is a toy, like, to showcase the the
1265
01:35:58.570 --> 01:36:00.730
the algorithm the the the the
1266
01:36:02.570 --> 01:36:05.310
sorry. The automated market maker algorithm
1267
01:36:06.655 --> 01:36:11.635
to show that it works even with, like, very few users, you can still buy shares.
1268
01:36:12.015 --> 01:36:15.720
You don't depend on someone else going on the site at the same time and
1269
01:36:16.360 --> 01:36:18.300
staying there, something like that.
1270
01:36:19.560 --> 01:36:25.180
But the other part, the censorship resistant part is very important. That's why I I wanted to see your hive mind working.
1271
01:36:25.864 --> 01:36:27.385
And, like, I mean, like, a Bitcoin
1272
01:36:28.264 --> 01:36:30.125
I it'd be who me to mention,
1273
01:36:31.784 --> 01:36:32.764
you know, economics
1274
01:36:33.145 --> 01:36:33.625
geek,
1275
01:36:34.344 --> 01:36:35.165
Nick Carter,
1276
01:36:35.530 --> 01:36:42.490
our boy Nick Carter, like, he thinks, like, prediction markets would be awesome for corn futures because corn futures, I guess, are illegal, and we we like
1277
01:36:43.610 --> 01:36:50.975
he he thinks that'd be a fun use for prediction markets. But prediction markets are really fucking cool, this idea that you can gamble on an outcome because
1278
01:36:51.515 --> 01:36:55.055
it goes back to the video games that we were talking about with the video games.
1279
01:36:55.700 --> 01:36:59.800
You have stats on the line. You actually have skin in the game. So those predictions,
1280
01:37:00.900 --> 01:37:02.680
the way those betting markets go
1281
01:37:03.235 --> 01:37:03.735
should
1282
01:37:04.195 --> 01:37:05.415
be way more likely,
1283
01:37:06.195 --> 01:37:07.415
outcome wise
1284
01:37:07.955 --> 01:37:15.260
than if you if you have, like, a centralized polling provider or something like that. And a perfect example in Bitcoin land right now
1285
01:37:15.800 --> 01:37:16.540
is, like,
1286
01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:21.980
where the fuck is our betting markets on on whether or not when Taproot's gonna get activated?
1287
01:37:22.775 --> 01:37:30.155
Right? Like, that should be when I start this show or when I do rabbit hole recap on Thursday and I'm talking about how likely it is for Taproot
1288
01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:47.680
to get activated. It shouldn't be based on some engagement account on Twitter that's saying, oh, 90% of mining pools are are saying it's activated. It should be on a very liquid betting site that says, you know, 10,000 Bitcoin are saying that, you know, Taprid is gonna be activated in the next month and a half,
1289
01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:53.700
and we don't have that. It's crazy that we don't have that. I am not saying
1290
01:37:54.560 --> 01:38:02.364
I deserve shit because I'm not gonna build that. I don't I don't want to have that liability on me, but some NIM some enterprising NIM somewhere
1291
01:38:03.065 --> 01:38:04.765
in the Seychelles or some shit
1292
01:38:05.160 --> 01:38:08.380
should have, like, the the this that service should be available.
1293
01:38:09.800 --> 01:38:15.225
It's it's gonna come. I mean, thing things are just so early as far as that stuff goes right now. Like like, DLCs
1294
01:38:15.925 --> 01:38:18.505
are really just rolling now, and I think
1295
01:38:18.885 --> 01:38:21.545
we're gonna see a lot more services using them,
1296
01:38:21.940 --> 01:38:22.600
you know,
1297
01:38:23.300 --> 01:38:24.920
in in the next year even.
1298
01:38:25.540 --> 01:38:26.280
And furthermore,
1299
01:38:26.659 --> 01:38:30.040
we don't even have DLCs on lightning yet. We we need to get Taproot activated,
1300
01:38:30.500 --> 01:38:31.000
and
1301
01:38:31.415 --> 01:38:35.035
that's gonna be a game changer in itself. So a lot of people,
1302
01:38:35.655 --> 01:38:41.850
you know, probably have an idea of of what they want their infrastructure to look like, and it's just not technically possible yet,
1303
01:38:42.550 --> 01:38:44.570
with the state of the blockchain right now.
1304
01:38:47.885 --> 01:38:56.380
We got, some guys in the comments mentioning Stacks, which is formerly Blockstack, which is formally something else, I think. This is terrible shitcoin.
1305
01:38:57.159 --> 01:39:00.060
This is terrible terrible. They lie. They're liars.
1306
01:39:01.400 --> 01:39:09.135
Let's hear this. Let's hear this. I wanna hear your opinion on it. Yeah. I wanna hear the rundown. Oh, I I don't know very much about Stack, but I know that Blockstack
1307
01:39:09.594 --> 01:39:13.855
has been lying since they were created. Like, they make a ton of marketing about
1308
01:39:14.290 --> 01:39:16.630
doing something something blockchain, something
1309
01:39:17.170 --> 01:39:21.110
decentralized, something like they don't explain what they're doing, and no one cares. No one looks.
1310
01:39:23.255 --> 01:39:27.515
When when you go look inside the the blocks, I think they have decentralized
1311
01:39:27.895 --> 01:39:35.870
apps. It was all fake because the apps were just running in a cloud server that you could host yourself. Like, is this a normal app?
1312
01:39:36.650 --> 01:39:40.715
You can't host apps normally. And then you store the data on a decentralized
1313
01:39:41.095 --> 01:39:46.635
network that's just a server that you can run, but everybody run their the server that they offered
1314
01:39:46.935 --> 01:39:47.595
by default.
1315
01:39:48.490 --> 01:39:52.590
And then they they buy a ton of Bitcoiners with this they they they give
1316
01:39:52.890 --> 01:39:55.710
money for Bitcoiners to build apps that integrated
1317
01:39:56.010 --> 01:39:56.830
block stack.
1318
01:39:57.435 --> 01:40:02.495
And oh, I don't know. It's it's so terrible. And then they made this tax thing that's a shitcoin.
1319
01:40:03.115 --> 01:40:07.300
And they say they say it's based on Bitcoin, but it's it's not
1320
01:40:07.840 --> 01:40:15.685
okay. I don't know. I don't know the details about Stack, but I know it's not based on Bitcoin. It's not a side chain. And they say it is, so
1321
01:40:16.545 --> 01:40:25.060
starts with a lie. And they have a they have a regulated shitcoin that's attached to it that they were they're they got legal permission to dump on retail.
1322
01:40:25.520 --> 01:40:39.235
I remember everyone was super proud of them. There was, like, all the congratulations were going out on Bitcoin Twitter. I was like, guys, like, can we not congratulate someone for getting regulatory approval to to dump a shit coin on retail? And then I got a lot of shit for that, and here we are.
1323
01:40:40.450 --> 01:40:45.350
I haven't looked at that chart lately, but I assume it's pretty just trending to 0 with everything else.
1324
01:40:46.985 --> 01:40:50.445
No. I mean, this is my same concern with RSK. Right? Like, RSK
1325
01:40:51.385 --> 01:40:59.490
has got, like, shitcoin vibes all over it. It's got the fucking token. You know? I don't know what to believe there. Would you agree, Fiat, Jeff? Like, how is that different than RSK?
1326
01:41:00.990 --> 01:41:02.050
RSK is a
1327
01:41:02.830 --> 01:41:07.755
a a real side chain if you if you consider the Federated peg side
1328
01:41:08.055 --> 01:41:11.275
chain. So you can really move Bitcoins there
1329
01:41:12.055 --> 01:41:13.355
and transact Bitcoins
1330
01:41:13.900 --> 01:41:16.880
and move them move them back, features their their model.
1331
01:41:17.500 --> 01:41:20.080
So if it's What's the token for?
1332
01:41:21.395 --> 01:41:28.855
I I don't know the the story about the token, but you can ignore the token. It's like another token inside. If you could ignore the token, it's almost worse.
1333
01:41:30.580 --> 01:41:32.100
I'm not sure. Like, the token
1334
01:41:32.900 --> 01:41:36.120
I I we need to Stacks token for?
1335
01:41:37.060 --> 01:41:39.960
You can't move Bitcoin to the Stacks blockchain,
1336
01:41:40.945 --> 01:41:42.885
and you can't move the Bitcoins back.
1337
01:41:44.225 --> 01:41:50.770
But you can do it on RSK. That's the purpose of RSK. The token was like a money grab thing to finance
1338
01:41:51.389 --> 01:41:53.730
the the stuff. I don't know. I don't like the token.
1339
01:41:54.429 --> 01:42:02.344
But I'm saying it's different it's different projects. Like, one is trying to be a side chain even if they have a shady token. The other is just a shitcoin
1340
01:42:03.045 --> 01:42:04.985
that markets itself will rely.
1341
01:42:05.640 --> 01:42:11.020
A governance token. They both they both sound like shitcoins to me. What did you have an opinion on Urbit?
1342
01:42:12.905 --> 01:42:14.125
Well, I'd have you.
1343
01:42:17.545 --> 01:42:20.204
I liked Urbit when I first read about it.
1344
01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:28.460
That's my opinion. But it also has a shitcoin. It's like my barometer is, like, if these things have shitcoins attached to them, it's just like it's probably garbage.
1345
01:42:28.855 --> 01:42:32.715
They didn't have a shitcoin in the beginning. It was just that weird talk about
1346
01:42:33.335 --> 01:42:35.835
planets and shit Those are the shitcoins.
1347
01:42:36.230 --> 01:42:41.050
They have their NFT shit coins, like planets, universes, stars. They're all trainable.
1348
01:42:41.670 --> 01:42:52.785
Yeah. I know I know they are now, but in the beginning, when I was reading it, there was no mention of shit coins. And then when they got traction, they said, oh, we decided to do these things that are properties
1349
01:42:53.165 --> 01:43:00.180
on the network, and we need a net a blockchain to do it, and they've decided to do it on Ethereum, and then we launch this token.
1350
01:43:01.255 --> 01:43:01.755
Yeah.
1351
01:43:02.135 --> 01:43:04.795
But they're switching to Bitcoin, but it still has the
1352
01:43:05.895 --> 01:43:18.140
Well Like, that's what people don't realize. Like, I like, my issue with shit tokens isn't that they're on Ethereum. It's like they're like, oh, if we put the shit token on liquid, then the Bitcoiners will like it. Like, I still don't like your shit token.
1353
01:43:18.585 --> 01:43:22.365
But don't don't you think there is some form of digital assets that
1354
01:43:22.825 --> 01:43:24.605
can exist besides Bitcoin?
1355
01:43:27.250 --> 01:43:33.030
I mean, that's a $1,000,000 question. The one that we tolerate on this show is the BISTDAO token. Like, is that a shitcoin?
1356
01:43:33.489 --> 01:43:33.989
Yes.
1357
01:43:34.345 --> 01:43:35.165
Yeah. Sort
1358
01:43:36.985 --> 01:43:42.925
of. I think it is a shitcoin. I mean, like, how how deep in the weeds do we wanna go defining shitcoins here?
1359
01:43:43.460 --> 01:43:47.480
Well, my my thing is that if the token represents something real.
1360
01:43:48.420 --> 01:43:56.655
Oh, total shitcoin. I mean, like, if it's like a tangible thing in the real world, like, oh, this asset's pegged to What about Tether? Is Tether a shitcoin?
1361
01:43:58.554 --> 01:44:00.415
Yeah. Tether, I think it's not a shitcoin.
1362
01:44:01.110 --> 01:44:02.650
Why is Tether not a shitcoin?
1363
01:44:04.710 --> 01:44:09.290
Because it's an IOU. Like, it's not not a shitcoin. It's a proper IOU.
1364
01:44:10.405 --> 01:44:10.905
Yeah.
1365
01:44:12.645 --> 01:44:15.145
I I think that there's some assets that
1366
01:44:15.605 --> 01:44:18.264
maybe you can own that aren't money
1367
01:44:18.680 --> 01:44:21.660
that you can transfer, but, I'm not sure about the
1368
01:44:22.120 --> 01:44:23.340
concrete examples.
1369
01:44:23.880 --> 01:44:25.180
Is gold a shitcoin? Governance
1370
01:44:25.880 --> 01:44:30.875
tokens are not are always shitcoin. Come on. Gold's totally a shitcoin. Is yeah. Is gold a shitcoin?
1371
01:44:32.695 --> 01:44:33.994
You put that on the screen.
1372
01:44:36.570 --> 01:44:43.835
This used to be a reoccurring segment on the show. The like, after, like, 10 episodes, everyone just agreed it was a shitcoin, so I stopped asking the question, but it
1373
01:44:44.395 --> 01:44:45.375
it did fit.
1374
01:44:47.114 --> 01:44:49.055
What do you think? Do you think gold's a shitcoin?
1375
01:44:53.679 --> 01:44:54.179
No.
1376
01:44:56.159 --> 01:44:57.060
I think no.
1377
01:44:57.520 --> 01:45:00.820
It depends on what your definition of a shitcoin is. Right? Yeah.
1378
01:45:02.095 --> 01:45:09.475
Yep. Yep. So if gold's not a shitcoin, then I I think I would agree that Tether is not a shitcoin, or, like, a Tether gold, right, wouldn't be a shitcoin.
1379
01:45:10.050 --> 01:45:13.270
If you don't think gold like, if if the asset that is backing
1380
01:45:13.810 --> 01:45:19.110
whatever, you know, you're, like, you're relying on a trusted third party. It's an IOU, but maybe it's not a shitcoin.
1381
01:45:19.925 --> 01:45:21.785
But I think gold's a shitcoin, so
1382
01:45:22.085 --> 01:45:23.625
the IOU is also shitcoin.
1383
01:45:24.805 --> 01:45:31.370
Yeah. But there are there's also some assets, digital assets. I think maybe their bit example is not that bad.
1384
01:45:32.070 --> 01:45:34.810
If you if the shitcoins are the ships and planets,
1385
01:45:35.864 --> 01:45:42.844
they are they are properties, like, they're digital properties in the on the they're closed network that you can join by buying a ship.
1386
01:45:44.470 --> 01:45:49.690
Digital real estate? Digital real estate. Yeah. Maybe these are these aren't shitcoin. But
1387
01:45:50.150 --> 01:45:51.805
That's what shitcoiners say.
1388
01:45:52.285 --> 01:45:58.065
Yeah. Yeah. Was it wasn't there a whole shitcoin just based on make believe land, digital space?
1389
01:45:58.525 --> 01:46:01.790
Oh, yeah. Barry Silberts neck deep in it. What was it called?
1390
01:46:02.270 --> 01:46:05.010
Man. There's just too many to keep track of at this point, honestly.
1391
01:46:06.270 --> 01:46:10.050
Yeah. But I think the thing has to resist before you sell them. Decentraland.
1392
01:46:11.074 --> 01:46:11.574
Decentraland.
1393
01:46:11.875 --> 01:46:14.215
That's it. I hate that I know that.
1394
01:46:15.795 --> 01:46:18.135
There's gonna be, like, a game show one day.
1395
01:46:18.490 --> 01:46:20.270
Who knows their shitcoin?
1396
01:46:21.130 --> 01:46:22.270
Name that shitcoin.
1397
01:46:22.730 --> 01:46:23.630
Yeah. Yeah.
1398
01:46:24.010 --> 01:46:32.905
Yeah. I did for a future segment. We'll see. Well, there was a there was a shitcoin that used multiple mining algorithms to supposedly make it more decentralized, but
1399
01:46:33.740 --> 01:46:37.120
a malicious individual figured out that all you had to do is compromise a single,
1400
01:46:37.580 --> 01:46:41.440
algorithm to compromise the whole system. What was the name of that Chickcoin?
1401
01:46:45.265 --> 01:46:46.165
I don't know.
1402
01:46:47.185 --> 01:46:50.245
And I I thought we were playing a game show, so I just went for it.
1403
01:46:51.510 --> 01:46:54.650
I think it was Verge. Right? Dogecoin dark or whatever.
1404
01:46:55.270 --> 01:46:55.770
Yeah.
1405
01:46:56.870 --> 01:47:00.810
Yeah. But, anyway, that that's another show that we won't do our Shitcoin
1406
01:47:02.695 --> 01:47:04.235
our Shitcoin trivia show.
1407
01:47:04.935 --> 01:47:07.355
So one one thing about Shitcoins is, like,
1408
01:47:08.760 --> 01:47:12.699
the Uniswap example on Ethereum. I don't know if you know about this.
1409
01:47:13.480 --> 01:47:18.235
Probably, you know. But there's the Uniswap thing that doesn't have a token,
1410
01:47:18.614 --> 01:47:22.155
and it's kinda useful thing in the context of Ethereum.
1411
01:47:23.094 --> 01:47:26.074
And then they launched another version that has a shitcoin.
1412
01:47:26.940 --> 01:47:36.475
I think that's the definition. Like, you don't need that. You had it working without the shitcoin, and then you launch itself that is a point, and you invented some some crap that shitcoin does.
1413
01:47:36.775 --> 01:47:41.355
I I love that. That issue. Yeah. But you realize what happened. Right? It was a competitor.
1414
01:47:41.655 --> 01:47:45.275
It was a competing product released it with a shitcoin that
1415
01:47:45.640 --> 01:47:47.580
that made you money if you used it.
1416
01:47:48.120 --> 01:48:00.575
The pancake swap or something? No. It was sushi swap. Sushi. I fuck I fucking hate that I know this. It was SushiSwap, and then they were taking all the volume from Uniswap, so then Uniswap added their own token because they didn't want the volume to get taken.
1417
01:48:01.035 --> 01:48:01.775
And then
1418
01:48:02.090 --> 01:48:02.590
c
1419
01:48:03.130 --> 01:48:08.430
z Binance c z fucking just completely cloned the whole Ethereum chain
1420
01:48:08.810 --> 01:48:13.355
and made it super centralized with 3 second blocks, and he called it Binance Smart Chain.
1421
01:48:13.975 --> 01:48:15.835
And on that, he created
1422
01:48:16.295 --> 01:48:16.795
PancakeSwap,
1423
01:48:17.175 --> 01:48:26.940
which is a direct copy of Uniswap and SushiSwap, but is on Binance Smart Chain. So that's that's what's going on in Bitcoin land right now. What what CZ did was he saw
1424
01:48:27.560 --> 01:48:29.260
Atlenium. He's like, wow.
1425
01:48:29.865 --> 01:48:43.630
How awesome could a project be if you centralize it? But And he pretty much copied it. But he had good branding instead of Atlaneum. Yeah. You know, I knew it was Chase sounds so much better. Atlenium is better because you can talk to the external
1426
01:48:44.090 --> 01:48:54.005
world. Like, on Ethereum, you can't. But on on a cleanium, you can you can make HTTP calls to other sites and fetch data. So the Oracle problem is solved.
1427
01:48:54.500 --> 01:48:56.600
You you just have to trust the server.
1428
01:48:58.100 --> 01:48:59.160
So it's not solved?
1429
01:49:00.660 --> 01:49:04.875
Yeah. It's not solved. I mean, that's the main issue of the Oracle problem. Right? It's like a trusted third party.
1430
01:49:05.655 --> 01:49:07.835
Yeah. But you're already trusting the entire
1431
01:49:08.790 --> 01:49:09.290
Atlenium
1432
01:49:09.670 --> 01:49:10.170
structure.
1433
01:49:10.710 --> 01:49:11.210
So
1434
01:49:12.790 --> 01:49:27.090
Okay. So Lightning Junkie is pretty upset with us for talking about shitcoins. I just wanted just one more thing. Just really just really quickly. Like, this BSC thing is hilarious. Like, this is something that a lot of us have theorized for a while, and Binance finally did it.
1435
01:49:27.870 --> 01:49:30.610
It's just that if if you start centralizing
1436
01:49:30.910 --> 01:49:32.690
to try and reduce fees and friction,
1437
01:49:33.205 --> 01:49:38.344
someone else is gonna come that centralizes further, and you're just gonna it's a race to the bottom. You're just gonna have to compete.
1438
01:49:38.804 --> 01:49:45.659
And, Bitcoiners don't talk about it a lot with the BSC thing, but it's like their b cash, but it's actually being done by a,
1439
01:49:46.280 --> 01:49:52.535
you know, a a player who's actually very sophisticated in the market, Binance, you know, one of the, probably the most,
1440
01:49:53.635 --> 01:49:55.495
popular exchange by volume.
1441
01:49:57.155 --> 01:50:05.000
I mean, who knows how much volume is real, but but he's, like, actually executing on this shit, and he uses the same fucking addresses. Right? Like, we we had,
1442
01:50:06.100 --> 01:50:20.090
it's literally the same exact address format. If you look at a BSC address, it looks exactly like an Ethereum address. You can't tell the difference. It's it's an it's exactly the same address. You can switch between even as a setting, you can switch MetaMask that just switches to his chain.
1443
01:50:20.969 --> 01:50:31.835
And, like, now we have Portnoy Portnoy. I'm not gonna say the name of the shitcoin, but Portnoy is still the bottom of the battle of shitcoin. Guess what chain it's on? It's on BSC. It's not on Ethereum. So they've played themselves,
1444
01:50:32.295 --> 01:50:34.395
and it's it's just pretty fucking hilarious,
1445
01:50:35.095 --> 01:50:36.555
case study to watch unfold.
1446
01:50:37.520 --> 01:50:38.580
Yeah. That's awesome.
1447
01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:44.900
So Lightning Junkies wants us to talk about any pre vout l 2 channel factories.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:02:33 PM
Duration: 9973.081
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.220
2
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:05.220
where Bitcoin is. Because when you remember when it ran up to 14,000
3
00:00:06.319 --> 00:00:14.125
and then pulled back to about 9,000? You said, yeah. No. That got a little bit out. I wish I'd sold some. At 14 Yeah. You copped to that. You got in trouble.
4
00:00:14.559 --> 00:00:21.779
The stackers all wrote in. Novogratz says, you know, paper hands or whatever the heck they're called. Alright. Now you're you've got the 62.
5
00:00:22.755 --> 00:00:23.974
Now we're at 45.
6
00:00:25.234 --> 00:00:48.950
What are your hands feeling like? Are they paper? Are they how come you're not doing the same thing? Why aren't you saying, you know what? I've made 10 times my money. Why don't I get out and then stack when it comes down back down to 20? So you must not think it's going back to 20. I I think 40 should hold. You know, I think we're gonna be at a 40 to 55 range for a while. We'll consolidate, and then we'll have another leg up. And I say that not just by guessing. We see institutions
7
00:00:49.410 --> 00:00:52.070
8
00:00:52.770 --> 00:00:54.790
UBS, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan,
9
00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:57.955
almost every bank is on their way into their wealth channels.
10
00:00:58.355 --> 00:01:05.550
They're not there yet. They're getting set up. They're getting their funds ready. And so you think about just Morgan Stanley for a second. Right?
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With 2013, 14, I think I was, like, the lone Wall Street guy screaming about Bitcoin.
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Morgan Stanley just trained 4,000
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financial advisors
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to sell Bitcoin. And so we're gonna have these armies of newly
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anointed
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prophesizers,
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salesmen, who have learned the the technology, have learned why it's important in your portfolio,
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all going out to the bulk of wealth in America, 50 to 80 year olds, and I think that's gonna have an impact.
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It doesn't have a overnight. You would you would stack at 40. You would start I would stack at 40.
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It's your boy, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.
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Last time we did one of these, last Bitcoin Tuesday,
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we were we were up a humble
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13 and a half $1,000 from where we are today.
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It's been a 24%
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decrease
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week over week since last Bitcoin Tuesday. Hope you guys are all huddling in there, and,
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you didn't get to let your ego get to you too much, and you you weren't leveraged, and and you didn't get blown the fuck out.
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Because if that's the case, then you're in Stackers Paradise right now, accumulating some cheap sets.
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Citadel dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software
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coming to you every Tuesday.
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This is our 22nd
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episode.
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Very excited about it.
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To those coming in through our audio streams,
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what there are 2 podcast feeds.
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That was our boy, Joe Kernan, on CNBC talking with Novogratz,
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about stacking the dip
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and about weekends.
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Novo is a bit of a shit corner, no doubt, but, it's always good to see that kind of talk on mainstream media. It's pretty funny how it is permeated everywhere.
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As always, I just wanna do a big shout out to the rider die freaks that are here in the live chat and that have supported the show.
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Couldn't do without you guys. You guys are what it's about.
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You really make, Bitcoin Tuesdays really special to me. So so thank you to all you guys, especially
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if you're coming in through the podcasting 2 point o.
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The streaming stats is really fucking cool. We're gonna talk about that a little bit on the show,
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but if you haven't checked that Breeze app, like, the the the Breeze app is
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is you really see the future there. You can really see the future of of being able to stream value directly to content creators,
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rather than this ad model that is just, like, proliferated everywhere.
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So, definitely check that out if you haven't.
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I also wanna do a big shout out to our boy, Jack Mahler's
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living legend.
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He set up the Indy race car. We're gonna have a Bitcoin race car, car number 21,
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at the Indy 500 this weekend.
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turned down any actual strike branding on the race car, So it's going to be completely Bitcoin branded,
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and they're accepting donations that will go to open source development.
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So it's a really fantastic initiative. We had, I think, Michael Sailor pledged $250,000
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the other day,
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today earlier today.
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So pressure all,
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your businesses
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in the Bitcoin community to to step up to the plate and support open source development in probably the most baller fucking way possible, which is with a really fast fucking race car,
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in front of a 144,000
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people in Indianapolis.
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And
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I've been supporting it as well. You can support it at strike dot me slash racing.
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Any any donations that come in through the lnurl,
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QR code on the bottom left hand of the screen, if you're watching the video stream throughout this stream,
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will be split 5050
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with the with the race car. So,
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just trying to do my part
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to help this initiative. It's a really fucking great initiative, and it really aligns well with the work we've been doing at opensats dotorgandalsobitcoindevilist.com.
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So I'm really excited about that.
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With all that said, this is Citadel dispatch 22.
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We have Evan Kaludis returning
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for his 5th show.
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What's up, Briggs? Glad to be back.
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with our boy Anthony and Open Arms. So we're gonna do the same fucking thing again. It's gonna be another really deep fucking show,
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on lightning and and just continue that path, And and we're fortunate enough to have Fiat Jaffe here with us who,
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is someone I've admired a lot on the Internet,
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but I never heard his voice till today, so it's really exciting to have him on the show. What's up, Fiat, Jeff?
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Very for inviting me. Yeah. Very prolific lightning developer.
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and now all of the episodes are up there with embedded videos and searchable transcripts. I
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have continued my trend of just losing money doing this show, so I put another 1,000,000 sats into automated
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AI transcripts, which to be quite honest, aren't that good, but it's pretty fucking cool that you can search through all of the episodes.
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And I'm going to be going through those and trying to edit them and refine them because they have, like, these tools that I could do that for. But in the meantime,
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all 22 episodes of dispatch are easily searchable on dispatch.com,
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so
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pretty fucking cool.
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So with all that said, I mean, I I guess, you know, let's let's you know, people pretend that they're in it for the tech, but we gotta talk about what's on everyone's mind.
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Is Bitcoin dead? Are we going to 0? Is it all over? And why did Elon fuck us?
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Yeah, man. It's been a really crazy week.
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You know, I I know a lot of hodlers are having their net worth fluctuate.
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A lot of people without faith just selling and letting go of their whole bags.
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You know, it's a little overblown, to be honest. And, you know, of course, mister Musk isn't helping
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with his bullshit, but, at the same time,
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just kind of,
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drawbacks
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or,
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you know, sort of par for the course. Look to 2017
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even. What we we drew back, like,
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4 or 5 times like this, 30% plus.
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And, I think people also need to take into account that taxes were due past couple weeks. Right? So there's gonna always be a lot of people
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just offloading their bags just to pay the bills, especially if there's, you know, traders in,
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But, you know, it's also not,
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we also can't neglect, you know, all the rhetoric and and the post from Elon this week. Of course, that shook a lot of people out. You know?
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It's hard to deny,
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how much we pumped when Tesla said they were adding to their books.
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So that's obviously a factor too.
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but but if if it if you were at 5,000 and you drop to 4,000,
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it wouldn't be a
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very large dip. Right? So
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this what happened now wasn't isn't that big.
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And Elon Elon put us on a new level,
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and we we didn't drop drop from that from that level yet. So
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and I kind of set you guys up with the question. I just think it's funny that I just got all these people reaching out to me, like, texting me, like, like, what the fuck is Elon doing? Like, what a fucking asshole,
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what a douchebag. It was like I I said to a friend, it was almost like their best they found out their best friend, like, slept with their fiance.
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You know? Like, they were, like, so betrayed. I'm like, guys, like, what the fuck did you expect? Like, he's never been a stable person. Like like, who who who thought, like It's not even just that he's not a stable person. It's, like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, think about it. Like, Tesla
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alternative energy companies, right, in,
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whatever, his panel company.
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And SpaceX is is a darling for government subsidies as well. Right?
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These are the kind of people that are gonna suffer the most
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post hyperbitcoinization.
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So it it should leave,
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it should be a surprise that that an individual like this
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is working to forward Bitcoin
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and, you know, trying to hold on to that sweet, sweet subsidy for as long as he can.
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in in in bull markets,
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and bear markets, people just like trying to find explanations for price drops.
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But this is a thing that is just natural. It is gonna happen. Bitcoin is a truly scarce asset,
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and as a result, as it's going through its adoption phase, you tend to have these, you know, rapid increases
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and then decreases,
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you know, where it's just trying to find its support level. It's like there's no way for it to really go up,
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in a smooth fashion because it's just, like, almost like pure chaos. And I so I have a chart on the on the screen for the people on the on the video streams,
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from Glassnode from Glassnode's weekly, report. And as you can see on this thing, like, we had massive draw downs last in 2017 too. Like, people after the fact will pretend, you know, staying humble and stacking stats was the easy mood mode, and that anyone could have huddled and that we were all fucking lucky.
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But there was a lot of shit your pants stumps that happened,
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in 2017.
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Mhmm. And there's gonna be a lot more that happened this time, and it's just that now we're at such a higher number. You know? A 23% drop is $14,000.
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Like, that's not nothing. Right? Like, that's absolute
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terms,
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I could see it scaring more people.
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So that was our our daily Bitcoin price talk, and now we can jump into the tech that everyone cares about. Yeah. Fuck Elon.
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Yeah. I mean, the the moral of the story is that Elon is wanted to make sure that the whole world knows that he's still short Bitcoin. So But but it it should be a lesson. Like, we shouldn't simp for
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you know, none the
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no. We shouldn't send for any billionaires, and definitely don't send for any cantillionaires
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that are, you know, just just drunk off of the government spigot.
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Tesla freak. He's obsessed with Tesla, so
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he he wants everyone to know to fuck Elon, but not fuck SpaceX.
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I don't know why he's making that distinction. I mean, I'm I'm kinda excited for Starlink. I think Starlink could be very useful to us.
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I would never get a Tesla period though because it's, like, a horrible fucking car for privacy. And,
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don't get me started on that. And, like and you have, like you just automatic imagine automatic updates to a car car, like, the thing is, like, going, like, 80 miles an hour and just getting automatic updates.
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Scare the shit out of me.
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I hope one day
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you know, that has no computer in it. It's just, like, got a, you know, regular combustion engine in it, and just put this a nice car that's privacy focused. That would be the ideal for me. Because, like, right now, I feel like I have to buy a 20 year old car,
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drop my Tesla off and, like, chop that up. Like, let me get a couple of, firewalls in there, you know, some ways of verifying what's going on there, and, you know, cut off the core function from the web.
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So live corrections are the best part of the show or one of the best parts of the show. Okay. So For now, they're not automatic. So they For now.
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Yeah. I mean, they're not automatic. Right? But it's closed source, and no one's verifying it before they click the update button. So who the fuck? It doesn't really matter. If you press the accelerator,
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that was a very important Bitcoin discussion. I'm really glad we had it.
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And I think let's just, you know so this this
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dispatch is all about dispatch
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is all about actionable Bitcoin discussions. So the idea is,
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I want us to focus on things that Bitcoiners can actually,
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you know, use in their day to day basis more so than, big picture things. But,
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since I have you, I'd I,
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you know, I I
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I think we'll
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ignore that aspect just for the beginning here, and I'm kind of curious, big picture.
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You've been, you know, really focused on lightning development specifically.
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Are you
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you know, the 2 year, 3 year outlook for lightning, are you bullish on it? Are you bearish on it? You know, what is your what are your thoughts there? Should should Bitcoiners,
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Bitcoiners seem to be very hyped about lightning right now. Is that is that hype properly placed, or is it mis
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I'm I'm bullish on more like a a network and less like a trustless
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pure payments through channels thing. Like,
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I think I think Bitcoin will have other forms of transferring there there there will be more other forms of transferring Bitcoin,
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and I think Lightning is the
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is the the the base for should be the base for all these like, if someone comes up with another protocol,
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we should integrate integrate it into Lightning,
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and
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Lightning will be this this network that connects everything,
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including custodial services and
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other
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stuff.
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So I'm I'm bullish on it because of that.
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I I I think we tend to be on the same page there from what you just said.
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You know, one interesting aspect,
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is that a lot of light and you just mentioned it, the word custodial. I mean, a lot of developers,
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frown on anything custodial related.
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But I feel like you've kind of leaned into it.
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Do you want to, like, do in a lot of ways, I feel like lightning
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I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I, like, I feel like lightning
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really works well as, like, interoperable custodial wallets.
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This idea where you can have, like, a bunch of little custodial wallets with
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varied trust models, and they can all interact with each other in an open way.
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When people I I people use it to say, like they still say, like, if you if you're going if you're going to use a custodial wallet, better use PayPal.
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But this this argument is stupid because PayPal is not using Bitcoin.
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And then they say, oh, so use Coinbase. But Coinbase is a closed thing. You're you're stuck inside there, and they they own you if you're there. But if you're using a a custodial
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service that's interactive lightning,
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then it's open. And then anyone can join other custodial service. Like, competition,
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makes things better. Like,
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we don't have to have trustless everything. We we need the trustless option,
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but the the market,
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the free market of of services
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still works very well for most things.
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So also for money transferring.
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So do
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you think,
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to
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if they they want to understand it, they they must run a a node to to see it go it happening and so on. But I I don't think most people
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are up for this. Like, they they don't care.
236
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And and so I think
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the people that care and the people that understand should strive to create an an environment
238
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in which the people that don't care don't get trapped inside Coinbase.
239
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They can get trapped inside
240
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a a more open
241
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thing.
242
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Does that make sense?
243
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244
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on the bottom left hand corner,
245
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and it uses your LNTX
246
00:19:26.260 --> 00:19:27.554
bot, which
247
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is a Telegram bot, but
248
00:19:30.414 --> 00:19:35.154
I feel like it does that doesn't go far enough. It it's it's a full fledged lightning wallet
249
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that runs inside of the Telegram app, which is already installed by, well, I don't know, like, a couple billion people probably.
250
00:19:44.054 --> 00:19:48.715
And it's got tons and tons of features in it, including this static donation
251
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QR code that allows anyone to just scan it whether it's during the show or later, and it goes it goes right to my wallet. Now that wallet is custodial though,
252
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:07.525
and, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. The main reason it it's custodial is because it makes it way easier for you to implement those features. Right? In, like, a UX friendly way.
253
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254
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But, yeah, if if it wasn't custodial, it would require people to run software
255
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and connect to the bot, and no one would do it. So
256
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257
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and or that
258
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there's there's some kind of pressure and you have to require KYC.
259
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So
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both of those get mitigated
261
00:20:42.100 --> 00:20:52.135
if you just use it with less amount of money. Right? I mean, that's basically the argument. Right? It's like if if you if you run away if you if you decide to do an exit scam on this wallet,
262
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you know, I'll lose 50 or $60 or whatever, and I'll just call it a day and call it even.
263
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264
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I think I think
265
00:21:01.690 --> 00:21:02.750
yeah. I think that's
266
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exact.
267
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For this for this custodial wallets,
268
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you should put low money on it. It's all fine.
269
00:21:12.115 --> 00:21:18.590
It's it's just weird. People running nodes to to you you start a full lightning node and open channels just
270
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to transact
271
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$5 on it. It's not it's not good investment.
272
00:21:24.225 --> 00:21:28.565
273
00:21:29.025 --> 00:21:31.845
freaks are you know, I think they're
274
00:21:32.300 --> 00:21:33.120
they're very enthusiastic
275
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about Bitcoin. They're very focused on Bitcoin, on best practices.
276
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Most of them are probably using their own nodes.
277
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But then you have, like, wake up calls where, you know, I had Keydominer and MBK on the show. You know, they're both highly technical people,
278
00:21:50.710 --> 00:22:01.475
very educated Bitcoiners, and they both admitted you know, Keydomen who runs a lightning service, they both admitted that their favorite wallet to use was Wallet of Satoshi, which is a custodian mobile wallet.
279
00:22:02.255 --> 00:22:06.435
So I feel like there's this massive disconnect between, like, the geeks in the space
280
00:22:07.070 --> 00:22:13.970
and reality. Right? And no one really discusses it, so I kinda like that. I think dispatch should be able to bridge that gap.
281
00:22:16.615 --> 00:22:23.530
Yeah. I I just I I there there's definitely a role here for custodial wallets, and to say otherwise is just ignoring the reality. Right?
282
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283
00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:29.390
building bridges,
284
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I think 11
285
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the biggest problem with Custodial is the privacy,
286
00:22:35.404 --> 00:22:37.424
not that someone will steal,
287
00:22:37.804 --> 00:22:41.550
$10 for a new for new like, the the privacy is much worse because
288
00:22:42.510 --> 00:22:45.010
I can't see all transactions from everybody
289
00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:47.810
on LNTX, but and that's bad.
290
00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:51.010
But the the solution to this is that the,
291
00:22:51.665 --> 00:22:54.965
hosted hosted channels thing. Have you ever heard about that?
292
00:22:55.425 --> 00:22:56.725
293
00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:00.270
294
00:23:01.450 --> 00:23:02.990
is a protocol that
295
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uses the same lightning
296
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base, like, the the same communication channels,
297
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and
298
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you you you just do something similar to to Lightning.
299
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It's it's a channel with amounts and so on and balances, but you the the the client doesn't doesn't
300
00:23:23.235 --> 00:23:26.294
control the money. The money stays on the on the host side.
301
00:23:26.755 --> 00:23:34.919
So it's a it's a custodial service, but it's fully private because the the host doesn't know what where you're sending the payments to and
302
00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:36.039
basically
303
00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:49.815
Now this is currently implemented on BLW on Android. Is that right? Yeah. It's currently implemented on BLW. And the server side, there's a, it's it's running on a clear for for Intel, which is my pseudonym.
304
00:23:50.195 --> 00:23:50.855
Just kidding.
305
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.360
And now and now Antl is making a new wallet
306
00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.240
that's much better, much cleaner, I think,
307
00:23:59.665 --> 00:24:02.405
and with the with the Immorton library.
308
00:24:03.025 --> 00:24:05.285
And releasing a plug in to
309
00:24:05.665 --> 00:24:14.310
for anyone to run it run the the the server side on their a clear note easily. So there there could be a a bunch of different custodians
310
00:24:15.410 --> 00:24:16.870
hosting these these channels.
311
00:24:18.274 --> 00:24:21.575
And also, I'm I'm planning on finishing, like,
312
00:24:21.875 --> 00:24:31.970
getting my work done and making a plug in for c lightning tool to support this. If I find that 15 that that that extra hour in the day, I will do it.
313
00:24:35.785 --> 00:24:39.005
314
00:24:39.865 --> 00:24:41.965
So, you know, you have those hosted channels
315
00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:44.769
that are indeed custodial,
316
00:24:45.710 --> 00:24:46.210
but,
317
00:24:46.669 --> 00:24:53.184
for more pressing stuff or, you know, when you can't find a route, you're able to have your own channel opened up,
318
00:24:54.605 --> 00:25:07.070
you know, to make those connections that are you know, those payments that are more private and to the branch you wanna make. And you can have a wallet with different channels different hosted channels to different hosts. Like and
319
00:25:07.485 --> 00:25:07.804
320
00:25:08.445 --> 00:25:15.904
your money doesn't sit all in one place. And you'll then then you send NPP payments splitting over these different
321
00:25:16.350 --> 00:25:16.850
hosted
322
00:25:17.309 --> 00:25:21.090
channels. It's very private. It's very, very, like, very private.
323
00:25:21.470 --> 00:25:21.970
And
324
00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:25.295
I think it's I think it's a very good model,
325
00:25:25.674 --> 00:25:27.455
and no one's talking about it.
326
00:25:28.155 --> 00:25:37.880
327
00:25:38.260 --> 00:25:38.659
as,
328
00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:41.794
you know, more different wallet implementations,
329
00:25:43.054 --> 00:25:44.274
have support for it.
330
00:25:44.654 --> 00:25:46.434
And furthermore, down the line,
331
00:25:46.815 --> 00:25:52.350
as far as, like, protocol stuff goes, is routing is split up and sees a whole bunch of innovations,
332
00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:55.630
then things start getting really interesting.
333
00:25:55.985 --> 00:26:00.725
334
00:26:01.184 --> 00:26:01.924
they can't
335
00:26:02.465 --> 00:26:07.900
they you you you you don't have custodial privacy, but they can still steal your funds. Right?
336
00:26:08.600 --> 00:26:09.100
337
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:09.980
Mhmm.
338
00:26:11.365 --> 00:26:15.385
Actually, I think you should call them credit channels. I I don't understand why
339
00:26:15.845 --> 00:26:19.385
custodial is bad, but credit is good on the on the mainstream,
340
00:26:19.685 --> 00:26:20.090
like
341
00:26:20.970 --> 00:26:21.549
a finance
342
00:26:21.850 --> 00:26:22.350
world.
343
00:26:23.690 --> 00:26:27.450
Credit is okay. You don't pay taxes for credit, but you
344
00:26:27.995 --> 00:26:30.815
the government goes against you. You should do custodian stuff.
345
00:26:32.395 --> 00:26:39.409
346
00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:40.929
you have
347
00:26:42.110 --> 00:26:44.450
a privacy concern with your custodian,
348
00:26:45.105 --> 00:26:47.205
I mean, if we're not talking hosted channels,
349
00:26:47.745 --> 00:26:48.245
but
350
00:26:48.945 --> 00:26:50.565
in a lot of ways, you get
351
00:26:50.865 --> 00:26:59.900
better external privacy if that custodian is a trusted source. If that that custodian is not working against you if the custodian is working against you, you have, obviously, you have worse privacy.
352
00:27:00.665 --> 00:27:03.485
But if the custodian is attempting to protect your privacy,
353
00:27:04.265 --> 00:27:11.410
then you have in in a lot of situations, you might have better privacy. Like, one of the things I think is interesting about Bitcoin On
354
00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:19.845
Chain is, historically, we've had a ton of custodial wallets, and they've all, like, failed. So people have moved, you know, to pretty much the default is noncustodial.
355
00:27:20.145 --> 00:27:22.485
Right? Like, it's a it's it's a very rare day
356
00:27:23.025 --> 00:27:32.960
where you have, like, a mobile wallet that has custodial on chain. We still have that in lightning, and, you know, we have 61 and 2 in the comments. I think one of the main concerns I have with something like Wallet or Satoshi
357
00:27:33.445 --> 00:27:36.985
or Blue Wallet is it's not very clear that it's a custodial wallet.
358
00:27:37.765 --> 00:27:44.840
Yeah. What the risks are and what the trade offs are. But we've seen on chain, like, people have moved to pretty much self custody by default.
359
00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:51.000
And as a result, all of a sudden on chain privacy techniques are more important. Right? Because if you're,
360
00:27:52.075 --> 00:28:00.175
and I already I I see people realizing this even if they don't admit it when they, like, try and pay me from strike or cash app because they don't want me to,
361
00:28:01.639 --> 00:28:06.779
you know, see what their balances are. So they they rely on the custodian to protect their privacy for them,
362
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.179
which I just think is just an interesting
363
00:28:11.345 --> 00:28:16.404
it's an interesting thing that happened that no one really talks about is that was this move from from custodial
364
00:28:17.080 --> 00:28:21.020
dominating to non custodial and and the impact it had on on chain privacy?
365
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.174
366
00:28:27.475 --> 00:28:27.875
at the
367
00:28:28.515 --> 00:28:29.495
at this period
368
00:28:30.035 --> 00:28:32.775
when people use it. We still do on chain wallets.
369
00:28:33.280 --> 00:28:35.440
So I don't really know it. This thing about,
370
00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:43.415
not show sharing your balances is, like, to the peep to the person you're paying, this is not talking about very much, like, in this
371
00:28:43.715 --> 00:28:45.495
every time someone talks about privacy,
372
00:28:46.915 --> 00:28:52.990
no one talks about this or maybe I'm missing it. The joint market has a good solution to it. You can pay someone
373
00:28:53.290 --> 00:28:57.310
while doing a coin join with the exact amount, so it fixes that.
374
00:28:59.125 --> 00:29:00.025
But yes.
375
00:29:00.565 --> 00:29:03.465
Yeah. But with LightningAid, it's it's much more
376
00:29:03.845 --> 00:29:06.585
it's much harder to to move to a no custodial
377
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:08.000
setup.
378
00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:12.240
379
00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:23.605
I mean, the the big thing I think with non custodial Lightning is channel management. There's this concept of channel management. I think it kinda goes hand in hand with how hard it is to conceptualize UTXO management to begin with,
380
00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:26.940
in coin control. Like, this is something that we're always
381
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:31.500
harping on and very focused on in this space,
382
00:29:33.585 --> 00:29:34.085
but
383
00:29:35.024 --> 00:29:36.005
it it it's
384
00:29:36.385 --> 00:29:44.919
UTXO management is, like, a very hard thing for people to grasp, and as a result, I feel like lightning channel management is also has this this
385
00:29:45.220 --> 00:29:45.620
this,
386
00:29:46.179 --> 00:29:48.765
speed bump. It's a hurdle to try and understand it.
387
00:29:49.325 --> 00:29:56.625
And that's kind of where the custodial wallets come into play. Before I get there, 6102 is saying it was always dominated by non custodial wallets.
388
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:00.380
I mean, I would push back there. What I'm suggesting is, you know, stuff like
389
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.460
like Silk Road, for instance, was a completely custodial product,
390
00:30:05.185 --> 00:30:08.885
that had a built in mixer, and and the users of Silk Road,
391
00:30:09.425 --> 00:30:12.885
were relying on that custodial privacy to provide them privacy.
392
00:30:15.070 --> 00:30:15.570
But
393
00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:21.809
so so I'm talking about from that angle or or any of the exchanges that were non KYC, stuff like BTCE
394
00:30:22.535 --> 00:30:24.635
that existed for the longest fucking time,
395
00:30:25.415 --> 00:30:31.755
or MintPal or Cripsy or whatever. I don't know. All the fucking shit coin casinos that that had no KYC.
396
00:30:32.780 --> 00:30:35.360
Those are all custodial wallets. But, anyway, I'm getting derailed.
397
00:30:35.900 --> 00:30:40.160
Fiat, Jeff, I'm curious. So so we're talking about UTXO management, channel
398
00:30:40.460 --> 00:30:40.960
management.
399
00:30:43.155 --> 00:30:45.815
One thing we've talked about a lot in this show is
400
00:30:46.275 --> 00:30:48.215
the uncle Jim model. This idea
401
00:30:48.820 --> 00:30:53.080
where you have, like, a friend or family member, in this case, his his name's uncle Jim,
402
00:30:54.179 --> 00:30:56.519
and he runs the node for the family.
403
00:30:57.725 --> 00:31:03.025
And he has, like, you know, 25 or 30 people that he's custodial on top of,
404
00:31:03.405 --> 00:31:06.210
that he you know, he's their he's their Bitcoin friend or Bitcoin uncle.
405
00:31:10.130 --> 00:31:18.664
Samura implement this with their QR code pairing with the node, but that's obviously not lightning, and we've seen BlueWallet implement it recently,
406
00:31:20.485 --> 00:31:23.785
on the lightning side. So BlueWallet defaults to custodial,
407
00:31:24.790 --> 00:31:29.850
but it it runs on LND hub. So if you run LND hub on your Raspberry Blitz or your Umbrel,
408
00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:31.850
or I think my note as well,
409
00:31:33.175 --> 00:31:35.035
you can then be the uncle Jim,
410
00:31:35.415 --> 00:31:36.635
and you can have,
411
00:31:38.055 --> 00:31:40.795
you can have friends or family connect to you, and they don't have to deal with any channel management or anything. You deal
412
00:31:41.530 --> 00:31:43.710
you know, trade off wise, or
413
00:31:44.690 --> 00:31:45.190
is
414
00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:52.605
that something that you think is just a complete waste of time? You know, trade off wise, or is that something that you think is just a complete waste of time?
415
00:31:53.145 --> 00:32:00.310
416
00:32:00.610 --> 00:32:05.030
Telegram chat asking about how to set up the LND Hub plug in
417
00:32:05.335 --> 00:32:07.595
so they can host for friends and family.
418
00:32:08.054 --> 00:32:08.554
And,
419
00:32:09.095 --> 00:32:14.794
yeah, I I since a long time ago, I I I thought about this too, and I think it's a good model.
420
00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:16.520
I think the the
421
00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:24.040
the model for with with hosted channels, anyone being able to to run their own hosted channel server,
422
00:32:24.785 --> 00:32:28.725
that's good too for this this specific case to the oncogene
423
00:32:29.025 --> 00:32:30.280
stuff. So
424
00:32:30.785 --> 00:32:31.605
yeah. Yeah.
425
00:32:32.270 --> 00:32:34.450
I think this is the way the way future
426
00:32:34.910 --> 00:32:35.650
is this.
427
00:32:36.830 --> 00:32:43.035
This and other other scene other things that the the good thing about Lightning is this. You can have the Uncle g model. You can have the completely
428
00:32:44.215 --> 00:32:50.075
running your own stuff model. You can have the big exchange bank model, everything together.
429
00:32:50.650 --> 00:32:51.950
And also people running
430
00:32:52.250 --> 00:32:54.430
lightning on lightning on some liquid
431
00:32:55.050 --> 00:32:56.830
and other side chains.
432
00:33:00.535 --> 00:33:04.715
433
00:33:05.175 --> 00:33:06.315
non uncle Jim.
434
00:33:08.020 --> 00:33:09.240
User own node wallet?
435
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:12.440
436
00:33:14.105 --> 00:33:15.645
I really do want to support
437
00:33:15.945 --> 00:33:19.885
uncle g model. Right? LND does have support for the uncle g
438
00:33:20.265 --> 00:33:20.765
model.
439
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:24.400
So we have support for LND hub.
440
00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:26.320
You can
441
00:33:26.620 --> 00:33:29.260
download Zeus and use that if you want.
442
00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:35.905
We auto generate the blue wall in lnd hub server, but we encourage everyone to,
443
00:33:37.245 --> 00:33:43.010
you know, if possible, find an uncle Jim to connect to and use their
444
00:33:43.310 --> 00:33:54.295
note. In fact, we're doing some work right now. We have some work in right now to fix the connection for LD Hubs that are behind Tor. So, like, let's say you use an Umbrel, and that's on Tor by default.
445
00:33:55.315 --> 00:33:58.935
The next release of Zeus is gonna make sure that that's all ironed out.
446
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.580
And, if you're an uncle Jim
447
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:05.820
and you've got a node that's running on Tor, you're running that LND Hub blue
448
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:07.980
wallet server service
449
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:09.340
behind Tor,
450
00:34:10.345 --> 00:34:13.485
Zeus is gonna be able to accommodate people using that. So,
451
00:34:14.185 --> 00:34:15.405
I I think that
452
00:34:15.865 --> 00:34:18.940
there's some limitations with what you can do with LND hub.
453
00:34:19.980 --> 00:34:22.000
Obviously, you're not gonna get the fully featured
454
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:26.319
set of features like key send or channel management
455
00:34:26.859 --> 00:34:27.680
or messaging
456
00:34:28.335 --> 00:34:32.835
of that stuff. But to onboard people onto the Lightning Network, it's a great solution.
457
00:34:33.215 --> 00:34:34.515
And if we want
458
00:34:35.890 --> 00:34:40.550
this to be viable and and for this to be more common and,
459
00:34:41.250 --> 00:34:42.710
you know, for for real
460
00:34:44.615 --> 00:34:48.235
commercial solutions, like, with big corporations running stuff,
461
00:34:49.255 --> 00:34:50.875
to not be the the default.
462
00:34:51.990 --> 00:34:54.250
You know? Freaks have to go out there
463
00:34:54.950 --> 00:34:58.570
and run it themselves and and try to onboard their friends and family.
464
00:34:59.225 --> 00:35:03.725
Let's make this the way that people experience Lightning Network for the first time.
465
00:35:05.225 --> 00:35:06.445
There's so much more,
466
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:21.145
you know, it's so much easier to go to your friend, your buddy, your uncle Jim than to, you know, file a support ticket at this big corporation that you hope is inevitably gonna be looked at
467
00:35:21.845 --> 00:35:23.145
and, you know,
468
00:35:23.685 --> 00:35:24.185
centralizing
469
00:35:24.645 --> 00:35:28.970
risk. You you you don't want these big honeypots of people's info
470
00:35:29.510 --> 00:35:33.530
to, you know, keep growing and collecting people's data and,
471
00:35:33.990 --> 00:35:34.570
you know,
472
00:35:35.325 --> 00:35:38.225
be there to be subpoenaed by federal government.
473
00:35:39.325 --> 00:35:39.885
474
00:35:40.845 --> 00:35:44.145
475
00:35:44.930 --> 00:35:48.869
I mean, look. Bitcoin doesn't have a support department or marketing department.
476
00:35:50.210 --> 00:35:56.155
A show like this, you know, we can hit thousands of users, but thousands of people, but, like, it can't scale to,
477
00:35:56.695 --> 00:35:58.875
you know, educating 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000.
478
00:35:59.815 --> 00:36:01.660
The only way it really scales if
479
00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:05.359
was, like, each of each of the freaks, you know, goes and
480
00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:12.775
and, you know, helps 10 of their friends and family, and and they have tons of 10 of their friends and family. And then that's how I, like, see it scaling.
481
00:36:13.235 --> 00:36:15.095
But, like, are we biased? Like
482
00:36:15.715 --> 00:36:16.215
like,
483
00:36:16.590 --> 00:36:18.770
I wasn't around you know, I'm a youngin'.
484
00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:21.310
I wasn't around during, you know,
485
00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:25.490
when com computers and the Internet were starting to become a thing.
486
00:36:27.474 --> 00:36:34.214
But, like, some of the old timers that have been around, they told me, you know, like, this was the model that they were talking about back in the day.
487
00:36:34.550 --> 00:36:36.250
Like, the Internet was gonna be,
488
00:36:36.950 --> 00:36:41.610
you know, your your uncle Jim was gonna run the mainframe computer in, like, his garage,
489
00:36:42.150 --> 00:36:49.155
and everyone was gonna connect to it. And instead, what happened was economies of scale just centralized it all into,
490
00:36:49.535 --> 00:36:51.235
you know, Google, Apple, Microsoft,
491
00:36:51.535 --> 00:36:52.035
Amazon,
492
00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:59.720
Twitter, Twitch. Right? Like, it it centralized it all into these these giant clouds these cloud services.
493
00:37:00.365 --> 00:37:05.425
494
00:37:05.805 --> 00:37:08.065
practical and so much cheaper. And
495
00:37:08.445 --> 00:37:11.800
you know what it really is? It's like people realize the terrors of
496
00:37:12.180 --> 00:37:22.395
what can go wrong when you trust these centralized entities with your data. Like, the average person is starting to, you know, come to terms with the amount of control that Google and Apple
497
00:37:22.855 --> 00:37:25.035
and Microsoft, etcetera, all have.
498
00:37:25.655 --> 00:37:26.155
And,
499
00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:29.280
you know, now now that we have these solutions,
500
00:37:31.420 --> 00:37:32.480
in, you know,
501
00:37:32.860 --> 00:37:33.360
cheap
502
00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:36.240
hardware and and free open source software,
503
00:37:36.655 --> 00:37:42.515
Like, people are starting to explore. I mean, it's it's not gonna be your your grandma that sets one of these off.
504
00:37:43.690 --> 00:37:47.390
But, you know, for the people who are willing to do their own research and
505
00:37:48.010 --> 00:37:49.869
figure out how all these things work,
506
00:37:50.329 --> 00:37:52.510
it's it's more practical than ever.
507
00:37:53.295 --> 00:38:03.310
And, you know, it's it's it's not inherently by the default design of the Internet that that these things would happen and become centralized. It's like a hub and spoke model. You know? Like like, the Internet's
508
00:38:04.410 --> 00:38:09.310
built to route around these traffic jams. And to be sort of centralized entities are
509
00:38:10.165 --> 00:38:11.385
sort of anomalous.
510
00:38:12.485 --> 00:38:15.145
And, you know, hopefully, the the move
511
00:38:15.525 --> 00:38:17.225
the movement keeps running, and,
512
00:38:17.530 --> 00:38:20.190
you know, people take things into their own hands.
513
00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:24.190
And, you know, we we need to try to make sure in the Bitcoin community
514
00:38:24.650 --> 00:38:26.510
that we don't get to that centralized,
515
00:38:26.810 --> 00:38:27.310
really
516
00:38:29.035 --> 00:38:31.695
highly centralized model. Like, we wanna try to avoid that
517
00:38:32.155 --> 00:38:33.775
instead of having to undo it.
518
00:38:34.235 --> 00:38:36.790
519
00:38:37.170 --> 00:38:39.430
in in the sense that you can still
520
00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:43.990
go to the Unfolding or run your own stuff model today.
521
00:38:44.345 --> 00:38:44.845
522
00:38:45.465 --> 00:38:51.085
523
00:38:51.385 --> 00:38:52.925
off now like they're doing.
524
00:38:55.100 --> 00:39:03.745
And so if if you can do that on Bitcoin and Lightning, I think we're safe. Like, as long as it's possible to to to jump
525
00:39:04.205 --> 00:39:11.799
off, we're fine. The the bad thing would be if the centralized big providers just made themselves incompatible with everything else, and
526
00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.039
then they trapped everybody.
527
00:39:14.660 --> 00:39:16.839
But if it if that doesn't happen,
528
00:39:17.535 --> 00:39:18.915
it's still okay.
529
00:39:20.494 --> 00:39:20.994
Yeah.
530
00:39:21.775 --> 00:39:24.994
I saw I saw a question on the chat, but it it vanished.
531
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:26.660
Someone asking
532
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:32.820
if if you're if you're not liable for hosting the the funds of your friends and family.
533
00:39:33.494 --> 00:39:38.635
I think I think I don't know if you are liable or not. I don't know the the laws, but I think this question is
534
00:39:39.015 --> 00:39:44.119
is I see it happening everywhere. Like, everybody's too afraid of being liable to to stuff.
535
00:39:44.900 --> 00:39:51.785
I'm not sure that's the correct mentality. I think we shouldn't like, if if everybody if if a ton of people are running nodes and
536
00:39:52.644 --> 00:39:56.744
for for their friends and family, the government won't be able to track everybody.
537
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:57.280
So
538
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:10.925
539
00:40:11.545 --> 00:40:19.650
If you can't make it up, you don't wanna take on that risk and help advance this technology and make life easier for your friends and family because of legal liability,
540
00:40:20.465 --> 00:40:22.325
yeah, you're already cooked. I'm sorry.
541
00:40:23.505 --> 00:40:27.045
542
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:35.060
So that's it. We have to step up and and take some risk, I think, for the benefit of everybody.
543
00:40:36.435 --> 00:40:39.495
And if more the more people do do it, the best.
544
00:40:40.355 --> 00:40:44.455
There was also a question that finished about how Lightning or Liquid
545
00:40:45.490 --> 00:40:47.750
would work with Lightning or Main Bitcoin.
546
00:40:48.690 --> 00:40:52.150
And the the the answer is just that you just need bridges
547
00:40:52.575 --> 00:40:53.075
And,
548
00:40:54.175 --> 00:40:56.675
like like, the nodes that are on liquid,
549
00:40:57.214 --> 00:40:59.395
they must understand how to use the bridge.
550
00:40:59.775 --> 00:41:04.280
And the nodes that are on on the on the main chain side, they can
551
00:41:05.780 --> 00:41:10.280
the liquid node can use the route hints route hints on the invoice to
552
00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:11.320
to
553
00:41:12.025 --> 00:41:17.405
point them to the bridge, and then the bridge knows what to do to send the pass the the payment
554
00:41:18.025 --> 00:41:19.245
to the liquid node,
555
00:41:19.839 --> 00:41:21.540
if that that makes sense.
556
00:41:22.319 --> 00:41:23.380
I have a prototype
557
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:27.859
for that, but it needs a ton of improvement to be actually usable.
558
00:41:28.255 --> 00:41:28.994
But it works.
559
00:41:29.775 --> 00:41:30.835
I think it works.
560
00:41:33.375 --> 00:41:42.370
561
00:41:42.830 --> 00:41:44.210
all the way all day.
562
00:41:45.165 --> 00:41:47.665
Like, it feels like you're a workhorse, man.
563
00:41:47.965 --> 00:41:48.465
I'm
564
00:41:48.845 --> 00:41:53.905
impressed by, like, all the little pods you've got your hands in and all the contributions you've made.
565
00:41:56.190 --> 00:41:56.690
566
00:41:56.990 --> 00:41:57.490
Yeah.
567
00:41:57.869 --> 00:42:00.450
I wish they were finished and working and
568
00:42:01.365 --> 00:42:06.105
there were more people helping maybe or maybe making them better than me.
569
00:42:06.805 --> 00:42:10.500
But I I can't finish most of the things I have. I I I tried.
570
00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:13.320
571
00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:19.160
I mean, I I think there is, you know, definitely real liability and and depending on your jurisdiction.
572
00:42:20.685 --> 00:42:26.785
And I think but mostly that works to our advantage. Right? And I I I guess I kind of asked a,
573
00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:37.904
you know, I asked kind of a leading question when I asked if it's gonna centralize, and I think what happens is, like, the one thing we have going to our advantage
574
00:42:38.285 --> 00:42:43.505
is these financial regulations mean that, you know, the centralized corporate services,
575
00:42:44.125 --> 00:42:47.440
because of liability, are gonna have oppressive KYC.
576
00:42:48.700 --> 00:42:51.440
They're gonna have, you know, information retention
577
00:42:52.060 --> 00:42:54.720
and and poor privacy. So because of that,
578
00:42:55.714 --> 00:43:02.214
there's actually a major friction point to using these centralized services over using either your own node or,
579
00:43:02.930 --> 00:43:06.230
I see in the comments, we they don't like uncle Jim. They want aunt Jam.
580
00:43:07.890 --> 00:43:11.510
If, you know, using your uncle Jim node, you don't have that that friction.
581
00:43:11.925 --> 00:43:20.505
So they're they're I unlike the Internet, you know, something like with with, like, Gmail, for instance. Right? It's, like, centralized email. Right? It's, like, completely.
582
00:43:21.310 --> 00:43:26.770
If you talk to, like, an original email nerd, like, Gmail completely lost the plot and isn't real email.
583
00:43:27.310 --> 00:43:46.799
But people love it. Right? And it's because that trade off isn't very clear that they're reading your email and they're providing you a service because they're just reading through every single thing you do and just collecting information on you. But if you sign up for a centralized service and they're, like, upload your passport, prick your finger and give us your blood, give us your Social Security number, like, the firstborn
584
00:43:47.180 --> 00:43:47.680
child,
585
00:43:48.365 --> 00:43:54.385
like, then, you know, you might look for a different option. You're gonna be like, that that's that's a heavy price to pay.
586
00:43:54.685 --> 00:43:57.345
So we kind of have that you know, while that's
587
00:44:07.255 --> 00:44:09.115
It'll also help to our advantage,
588
00:44:09.734 --> 00:44:11.035
the fact that,
589
00:44:12.295 --> 00:44:16.250
that that they you know, the big players will have to ball with those regulations. Right?
590
00:44:18.010 --> 00:44:20.350
591
00:44:21.089 --> 00:44:23.390
592
00:44:23.705 --> 00:44:29.565
the the Right. Uncle Jim lawyers, the the Uncle Jim liability. I think Uncle Jim shouldn't worry about that.
593
00:44:30.345 --> 00:44:41.140
594
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:46.715
So I kinda derailed the conversation a little bit. We were, like, dipping our toes into liquid.
595
00:44:48.375 --> 00:44:52.155
Do you think, like, liquid is a reasonable project, or do you think, like, it's
596
00:44:53.770 --> 00:44:54.829
it's it's unnecessary
597
00:44:56.089 --> 00:44:57.470
because of lightning existing?
598
00:44:58.569 --> 00:44:59.789
599
00:45:00.645 --> 00:45:03.464
I like I like I think custodial stuff is reasonable
600
00:45:03.765 --> 00:45:05.865
as I said before. And, like,
601
00:45:06.805 --> 00:45:09.704
we we should strive to get better custodian models,
602
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:13.859
and liquid is a good custodian model. It's a custodian that
603
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.180
it's very private and,
604
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.220
actually, not very private if you're trying to
605
00:45:19.655 --> 00:45:21.195
to back out. But
606
00:45:21.815 --> 00:45:30.200
and it's reasonably safe. Right? The the apparently, they have good good safety for the keys. So it's it's better than a bank,
607
00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:37.295
and it's open. You don't have to to KOC to use it. Only only if you want to peg out, but
608
00:45:37.775 --> 00:45:39.555
that's not not always necessary.
609
00:45:41.295 --> 00:45:51.599
610
00:45:53.464 --> 00:45:54.285
you know,
611
00:45:54.744 --> 00:45:54.905
trust minimized,
612
00:45:56.425 --> 00:45:59.244
in and out with is lightning. Before lightning existed,
613
00:46:01.289 --> 00:46:03.549
you know, this idea that we had a trust minimized
614
00:46:03.849 --> 00:46:09.950
way of pegging in is is is revolutionary on its side on itself. And then, you know, swaps,
615
00:46:10.585 --> 00:46:13.725
you know, especially if we get atomic swaps. But even if you get
616
00:46:14.105 --> 00:46:18.605
I mean, we already have them. We have the custodial swaps. Right? Like, the shape shift type of things.
617
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.020
And that's what people have been using with altcoins for however long.
618
00:46:24.040 --> 00:46:29.805
It's relatively trust minimized. I mean, obviously, they can run off with your money in the interim while the while the trade's happening.
619
00:46:30.505 --> 00:46:36.125
We had Adam back on the show the other day. He made an interesting point. Like, even if we have if we have centralized atomic swaps,
620
00:46:37.539 --> 00:46:45.400
that improves the trust model slightly further because, yes, it's a centralized point of failure, but they can't steal your money. The swap only happens if they're giving you the
621
00:46:45.940 --> 00:46:46.680
the equivalent.
622
00:46:49.525 --> 00:46:52.585
So, like, it's almost like a misnomer saying, like, we need permissionless
623
00:46:53.045 --> 00:46:56.985
peg outs on on liquid. We just need, like, a healthy swap market. Right?
624
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:01.580
625
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:08.555
I mean, if if the peg outs are someone will have to to do the the bag outs on the normal way. Like,
626
00:47:09.415 --> 00:47:14.155
or at least that that guarantee has to be there that there will be a bag out. Adam
627
00:47:14.470 --> 00:47:21.050
628
00:47:22.585 --> 00:47:25.085
way better external security for the system
629
00:47:25.385 --> 00:47:28.525
if you make it so PEG outs only go to approved ex pubs,
630
00:47:28.825 --> 00:47:30.444
which is the federation members.
631
00:47:31.200 --> 00:47:33.619
So it's, like, it's a very clear trade off they made.
632
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:49.369
And I I'm not, you know, I'm not sure I'm I'm not gonna be the one who says that the better trade off is that they should be able to peg out to any fucking address, because who wants who wants the chance that you could have, you know, 10,000 Bitcoin just get drained from the whole system at once
633
00:47:49.750 --> 00:47:51.130
or whatever. I'm being alarmist.
634
00:47:52.070 --> 00:47:57.875
635
00:47:58.175 --> 00:47:58.835
So yeah.
636
00:47:59.535 --> 00:48:03.955
637
00:48:04.415 --> 00:48:05.075
638
00:48:06.120 --> 00:48:20.585
Where we do no one talks about liquid. That's why I like to talk about it more. No one uses it. I mean, if you go to, like That's the main thing. More services have to adopt it, really. And, you know, if you take a look at their blockchain and see how many transact on. It's a ghost town. I mean,
639
00:48:20.885 --> 00:48:25.859
not to say that it doesn't have some real merits and could be really useful. It's just, definitely
640
00:48:26.560 --> 00:48:34.020
not where we need it right now. And, you know, you could say the same thing about lightning. Lightning needs a lot more adoption for Yeah. But not at not
641
00:48:35.244 --> 00:48:42.145
not the same level. Yeah. Not the same level. People are using Lightning more actively, but they could both use bump.
642
00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:46.190
643
00:48:47.130 --> 00:48:48.750
No one talks about RSK.
644
00:48:50.009 --> 00:48:51.789
645
00:48:53.395 --> 00:48:54.135
646
00:48:54.515 --> 00:48:56.695
I think the same about Liquid. Like,
647
00:48:56.995 --> 00:48:57.735
I think it's
648
00:48:58.035 --> 00:48:59.655
better than a bank, so
649
00:49:00.355 --> 00:49:02.695
that's good. I I'm not sure about the
650
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:11.400
Ethereum like smart contract. I'm not sure they're very useful. But It has a it it has a shitcoin. It has a shitcoin, though. Liquid doesn't have the shitcoin.
651
00:49:12.205 --> 00:49:13.585
Yeah. There's also that.
652
00:49:14.365 --> 00:49:16.685
653
00:49:17.645 --> 00:49:26.750
like, liquid, when when are we gonna do the Citadel dispatch coin? You know what I mean? This is this is liquid this is liquid on that pool space right now.
654
00:49:27.530 --> 00:49:31.585
655
00:49:31.965 --> 00:49:32.705
656
00:49:33.005 --> 00:49:34.385
657
00:49:34.845 --> 00:49:35.345
658
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:42.480
659
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:48.205
you know, once this gets integrated with it all the way and and see how that pans out.
660
00:49:48.585 --> 00:49:56.460
That could go a long way. But I think it's also gonna take some of the other centralized exchanges to be running it for things to really take off.
661
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:03.195
662
00:50:03.815 --> 00:50:12.950
I think it's, it's a lot more user friendly for for a new user because they don't have the channel management. I think that's the main thing it does going for it. I don't get the whole trader thing,
663
00:50:14.610 --> 00:50:18.505
because I I think the trader thing can get solved with private lightning channels. But,
664
00:50:20.825 --> 00:50:23.164
Yeah. I digress. I'm just, so
665
00:50:24.505 --> 00:50:28.880
so, Fiat, Jeff, you started working with, our friends over at Zebedee,
666
00:50:29.660 --> 00:50:31.440
when from in December. Right?
667
00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:32.480
668
00:50:33.180 --> 00:50:37.984
669
00:50:39.325 --> 00:50:41.345
CEO and cofounder of Zebedee
670
00:50:42.445 --> 00:50:44.625
4 episodes ago or 5 episodes ago.
671
00:50:47.330 --> 00:50:51.910
So the the the focus over there is is putting stats and lightning into games.
672
00:50:53.954 --> 00:50:54.454
673
00:50:55.234 --> 00:50:58.595
674
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:14.955
is it as natural of a fit as we think it is? Like, are are is that is that do you think it's safe to say that most Zoomers are gonna start using Sats in video games before they use them anywhere else? Oh, I I don't know. I don't understand the Zoomers.
675
00:51:18.190 --> 00:51:20.369
676
00:51:20.910 --> 00:51:23.810
but I think that's that that has potential, and
677
00:51:24.165 --> 00:51:24.665
I
678
00:51:25.205 --> 00:51:26.665
don't think it's as easy.
679
00:51:27.205 --> 00:51:32.025
I I I've heard you say before, like, that you just wanna lose sets to some
680
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:37.320
some Asian guy that kills you. But I'm not sure that the incentives
681
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:40.135
the incentives are that perfect.
682
00:51:40.595 --> 00:51:45.895
The the the the sets change the the incentives. So you have to you have to change the game a little, like, to
683
00:51:46.275 --> 00:51:46.775
accommodate.
684
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:51.300
Like poker is a a good game with that could be played with sets because
685
00:51:52.020 --> 00:51:53.560
with money of any kind
686
00:51:54.099 --> 00:51:57.675
because the the the money is inside the game. It's not just
687
00:51:58.055 --> 00:51:59.675
the the winner takes all.
688
00:52:01.975 --> 00:52:09.080
Like, the the bluffing and putting putting money on the table, that's a part of the game. And I think putting sets inside games
689
00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:16.875
has to be done in that way too. Like, the the the first version of the Infuze CS GO thing, it was just the winner takes more sets.
690
00:52:17.335 --> 00:52:25.730
But then we added that coin. I don't know if you saw it, but when you when you kill someone, they left the sets in the form of a coin in the map. So that changed the incentives
691
00:52:26.109 --> 00:52:37.355
because if you go rushing to to pick up the coins, you expose yourself. And so that kind of changes in the game. I think that that's what makes Yeah. I love that. It's like,
692
00:52:37.815 --> 00:52:43.035
693
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:45.220
Otherwise, it doesn't count.
694
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.140
695
00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:53.060
696
00:52:55.165 --> 00:52:56.705
697
00:52:57.405 --> 00:52:59.665
I I don't see very much the
698
00:53:00.125 --> 00:53:01.670
customer side of it. But
699
00:53:02.549 --> 00:53:03.369
Well, the consumers
700
00:53:03.670 --> 00:53:13.215
701
00:53:13.835 --> 00:53:18.655
It's just if you add if you add stats rewards, then you might make money as well.
702
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.700
Like, there might be, like, a a way to make money.
703
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.380
And and, I mean, the example that I always say, I mean, you brought it up, poker,
704
00:53:27.914 --> 00:53:30.815
is, like, fucking poker without money sucks.
705
00:53:31.355 --> 00:53:37.819
Like, I will not sit down to play poker for 4 hours without money now. I'm an adult. Okay? That's something that we did you did as children.
706
00:53:38.359 --> 00:53:44.380
Now that you're an adult, you wanna play you wanna play with cash. Otherwise, it's not it's not fun. And I think
707
00:53:44.875 --> 00:53:46.575
once you start having good games
708
00:53:47.115 --> 00:53:49.135
that have this, like, built in natively,
709
00:53:50.555 --> 00:53:54.335
where, you know, if you spend 2 hours, you have real money on the line,
710
00:53:55.339 --> 00:53:59.180
it's just gonna kinda ruin all the games that don't have it. It's just like, why would you
711
00:54:00.460 --> 00:54:02.400
there'll still be, like, a place for
712
00:54:02.715 --> 00:54:04.575
the single player epic games,
713
00:54:05.435 --> 00:54:10.735
where, you know, you just wanna, like, lose yourself for 5 hours, 6 hours, and escape reality,
714
00:54:11.130 --> 00:54:15.390
and there'll be no money in those. But, when it comes to the competitive shit,
715
00:54:16.010 --> 00:54:21.755
you know, people are gonna wanna I'm gonna wanna play I wanna play the game that I have skin in the game or actually have
716
00:54:22.055 --> 00:54:23.355
have stats on the line.
717
00:54:25.895 --> 00:54:38.704
718
00:54:39.404 --> 00:54:54.005
719
00:54:54.465 --> 00:54:56.065
They don't even think when they play.
720
00:54:56.785 --> 00:55:11.555
So, like, in the beginning of Fortnite, we just used to get our asses kicked. And then they they added a system, you know, where, like, there's, like, a ranking system, like, a reputation system. Right? And and you'd now I can actually win because they only put me with the shitty players. Mhmm. Mhmm.
721
00:55:11.855 --> 00:55:16.755
So, like, that's I don't think that's like, that's just good game mechanics. Right? Like, that's not,
722
00:55:17.570 --> 00:55:23.830
like, period. Even if there's no sats on the line, if you just play a game where you just die instantly all the time, like, that's not a fun game.
723
00:55:25.015 --> 00:55:29.914
724
00:55:30.295 --> 00:55:31.515
so the game is interesting.
725
00:55:31.870 --> 00:55:36.610
The the best player doesn't don't want to play with the worst player because it won't be found.
726
00:55:37.230 --> 00:55:45.095
But if they they want they're playing to get the money, then they want play with the worst player possible, so they get the the sets from that that guy.
727
00:55:45.635 --> 00:55:47.655
So there's there's an, conflicting
728
00:55:48.115 --> 00:55:54.090
incentive there that must be solved. But once you solve that, the games do become more interesting, I think.
729
00:55:55.670 --> 00:56:01.665
730
00:56:04.525 --> 00:56:06.225
is this idea,
731
00:56:09.329 --> 00:56:14.790
you know, is the is the user friendly nature of the wallet. Right? You guys have opted for a custodial wallet over there.
732
00:56:16.965 --> 00:56:20.905
Is this something you battle with? Like, I assume you guys would prefer to move to a noncustodial
733
00:56:21.285 --> 00:56:22.425
if possible. Right?
734
00:56:24.325 --> 00:56:25.385
735
00:56:26.789 --> 00:56:30.010
Yeah. I would prefer to move to a hosted channel model,
736
00:56:31.510 --> 00:56:37.215
but but I I don't know. The the people that play, I have the I'm not sure, but I have the impression that
737
00:56:38.075 --> 00:56:46.880
they want to be, like, the guy who just cares about playing games or whatever, forever kind. It's hard for that same person to be interested in running
738
00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:47.920
channels
739
00:56:48.539 --> 00:56:49.680
and so on. So
740
00:56:50.859 --> 00:56:54.904
maybe Black Personal will move to another wallet that has that capability.
741
00:56:55.365 --> 00:57:02.025
But for all the for the Zoomers that don't don't care about anything, they they should use the the so the wallet.
742
00:57:04.540 --> 00:57:09.760
743
00:57:10.335 --> 00:57:17.154
Yeah. That that's the that's the the thing. What what's the only requirement? Like, you gotta do, l and u or l pay to get paid out
744
00:57:17.660 --> 00:57:18.640
745
00:57:19.339 --> 00:57:21.819
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because it still means
746
00:57:22.140 --> 00:57:25.265
747
00:57:26.684 --> 00:57:33.904
Yeah. The I mean, the main issue of a custodial wall is is KYC regs. You know? It's the same thing we were talking about, that friction.
748
00:57:34.204 --> 00:57:34.704
And,
749
00:57:35.150 --> 00:57:43.890
you know, Zebedee has, like they have different limits. They have different levels for what level of KYC you do. Mhmm. So lower amounts, it's not, like, horrible.
750
00:57:46.085 --> 00:57:49.705
But, I mean, I think, ultimately, the goal's gotta be to move to a noncustodial
751
00:57:50.085 --> 00:57:55.369
thing so that you can open it up to more users. I mean, we had Sputnik on the same show,
752
00:57:55.750 --> 00:57:58.250
and he has Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, and he was like,
753
00:57:59.190 --> 00:58:12.800
you you know, he made his game like a proper BitCorner originally. And, like, every if when you installed it, it installed a full lightning node on your computer. Jeez. And, like, he had bottleneck issues real quick. And and the other thing is
754
00:58:13.100 --> 00:58:18.545
is in a high fee environment. Right? Like, if you have to open a channel for someone, you're hitting the chain.
755
00:58:19.165 --> 00:58:20.045
Right? That could be,
756
00:58:20.845 --> 00:58:22.224
you know, if if
757
00:58:22.765 --> 00:58:29.310
if block space if but the block space is not gonna increase, I I'd be very surprised if, you know, we have block size increase.
758
00:58:30.089 --> 00:58:33.710
So if that's the case, you know, we could be looking at a $100, a $150
759
00:58:35.195 --> 00:58:39.355
main you know, on chain transaction fees to open a channel. Like, how could you ever have,
760
00:58:41.115 --> 00:58:44.460
anything under that amount has gotta be custodial. Otherwise, you're just
761
00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:46.320
burning money.
762
00:58:46.700 --> 00:58:47.520
763
00:58:48.140 --> 00:58:53.775
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be sovereign, to have your own channels, there's a cost to it. And,
764
00:58:54.335 --> 00:59:00.595
that's that's one of the bigger problems here. It's like that and and the convenience of, you know, not having to manage your channels.
765
00:59:03.220 --> 00:59:09.000
766
00:59:10.704 --> 00:59:17.525
767
00:59:18.120 --> 00:59:20.220
to, like, build out the user base. Right?
768
00:59:20.680 --> 00:59:25.020
Like, Moon Wallet is a perfect example. Like, Moon Wallet's UX is fucking fantastic.
769
00:59:26.005 --> 00:59:34.025
770
00:59:34.510 --> 00:59:35.330
And I think
771
00:59:35.630 --> 00:59:40.050
that the mix of, you know, these user these companies figuring out, like,
772
00:59:41.070 --> 00:59:44.585
their flows and how much they want to spend for this user acquisition
773
00:59:45.365 --> 00:59:46.505
versus also,
774
00:59:47.045 --> 00:59:51.560
you know, dealing with the custodial wallets and, you know, dealing with potential
775
00:59:51.940 --> 00:59:52.440
impending,
776
00:59:53.780 --> 00:59:54.680
you know, regulations
777
00:59:54.980 --> 00:59:56.200
and risk there. Like,
778
00:59:57.695 --> 00:59:59.315
a whole bunch of the wallets
779
00:59:59.695 --> 01:00:04.515
that we know and use today might not look the same in even, say, a year's time.
780
01:00:06.730 --> 01:00:10.590
781
01:00:10.970 --> 01:00:12.510
all these issues will vanish.
782
01:00:12.905 --> 01:00:15.885
So we just have to survive until that point.
783
01:00:17.545 --> 01:00:26.120
784
01:00:26.580 --> 01:00:30.520
So things are moving really rapidly as far as these custodial and
785
01:00:31.155 --> 01:00:33.255
semi, in quotes, semi custodial
786
01:00:33.555 --> 01:00:34.535
wallets are going.
787
01:00:35.155 --> 01:00:37.734
So, I think there's still a lot of room for experimentation,
788
01:00:38.035 --> 01:00:39.655
and that that's what's happening.
789
01:00:40.470 --> 01:00:45.910
But, you know, don't don't expect things to stay the same or even for your favorite wallet to stick around,
790
01:00:46.550 --> 01:00:57.484
791
01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:05.070
792
01:01:05.610 --> 01:01:07.715
793
01:01:09.235 --> 01:01:11.415
794
01:01:15.635 --> 01:01:16.375
795
01:01:17.500 --> 01:01:21.120
yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I I agree. This this is, like, a heavy competitive
796
01:01:21.500 --> 01:01:25.440
market right now for lightning wallets, and and most of them will probably not survive.
797
01:01:27.805 --> 01:01:31.585
But it should be interesting to see how the whole high fee environment works,
798
01:01:32.445 --> 01:01:36.590
with lightning because I feel like it hasn't really been stress tested under that environment yet.
799
01:01:37.950 --> 01:01:38.030
The
800
01:01:39.550 --> 01:01:44.990
and, like, it barely did, like, 2 weeks ago or 3 weeks ago, but I feel like people just stopped doing things. They
801
01:01:54.740 --> 01:01:55.720
talking about
802
01:01:56.180 --> 01:02:01.240
how, ranking systems suck because we're talking about video game ranking systems, and it reminded me
803
01:02:02.875 --> 01:02:03.375
because,
804
01:02:04.715 --> 01:02:09.455
you know, Lightning Labs released this new tool that can let you explore your boss score
805
01:02:09.994 --> 01:02:10.815
last week,
806
01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:17.200
and it's still closed. I it's not open. Like, we don't know how they classify things.
807
01:02:17.740 --> 01:02:20.485
And I, like, tweeted at them in, like, all caps,
808
01:02:21.605 --> 01:02:23.145
because I have, like, 250
809
01:02:23.445 --> 01:02:27.650
peers on that note. And they were, like, 0 of 250 are good peers.
810
01:02:28.369 --> 01:02:33.510
And I was like, you never fuck it. You talk shit about my peers like this, and I'll never forget it.
811
01:02:34.130 --> 01:02:41.005
And and my boss score, like, moved up, like, a 100 points or 200 points after that, and I've got, like, 7 good peers now.
812
01:02:41.705 --> 01:02:43.405
813
01:02:43.865 --> 01:02:47.830
is that Oz is the wizard behind the green curtain, and he's just
814
01:02:48.370 --> 01:02:49.910
changing things as he wants.
815
01:02:51.090 --> 01:02:55.325
Yeah. We we need to get buzz on the show. We have too many questions.
816
01:02:55.704 --> 01:02:58.615
817
01:02:59.120 --> 01:03:01.940
818
01:03:03.680 --> 01:03:09.165
819
01:03:11.065 --> 01:03:16.285
820
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:20.660
821
01:03:21.200 --> 01:03:27.515
822
01:03:29.895 --> 01:03:32.155
823
01:03:34.740 --> 01:03:36.680
824
01:03:38.500 --> 01:03:40.180
825
01:03:41.455 --> 01:03:44.595
like, so what are you what are your thoughts on, like, reputation systems,
826
01:03:45.455 --> 01:03:49.395
for lightning notes? Like, this is this this is something that's essential. Right?
827
01:03:51.060 --> 01:03:51.560
828
01:03:52.100 --> 01:03:59.845
I I like reputation systems. I just don't know how to do them. It's always very hard. Like, a a global ranking is is not
829
01:04:00.805 --> 01:04:02.505
maybe for lightning nodes, it's good.
830
01:04:04.405 --> 01:04:05.325
But the
831
01:04:05.785 --> 01:04:07.145
generally, like, the the
832
01:04:07.650 --> 01:04:08.950
graph of reputation,
833
01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:14.070
I think it works better, but also much harder to build for the stuff.
834
01:04:14.735 --> 01:04:17.635
For Lightning nodes, I the thing I I like about
835
01:04:18.175 --> 01:04:22.355
the thing I wanted to see is, like, if a peer is closing channels
836
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:23.500
because
837
01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:24.700
I hate that.
838
01:04:25.160 --> 01:04:25.660
And
839
01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:27.000
also failing
840
01:04:27.640 --> 01:04:32.825
I don't know what they what they measure that, but they probably don't measure if the peer is closing channels because
841
01:04:34.585 --> 01:04:42.605
I don't know. You you can't know if why a a channel was closed in unless you're watching the logs and understanding all the internals.
842
01:04:43.310 --> 01:04:45.650
So I think that's information is not public.
843
01:04:46.830 --> 01:04:47.970
Yeah. I don't know.
844
01:04:48.350 --> 01:04:50.815
845
01:04:51.295 --> 01:04:53.954
out there, and it's hard to weigh them versus each other.
846
01:04:54.734 --> 01:04:55.555
I think it's,
847
01:04:56.255 --> 01:05:02.830
you know, that that's pretty much why the metrics for BOS aren't public. I think they're still getting ironed out.
848
01:05:04.090 --> 01:05:07.215
You know, even a heavy router like BOS is still trying to figure out
849
01:05:07.695 --> 01:05:08.435
which metrics
850
01:05:09.375 --> 01:05:18.599
together or on their own are most valuable and should be weighted the most. And, yes, it's gonna take a good amount of time more. We're we're gonna need more routing on the network.
851
01:05:19.460 --> 01:05:25.045
And, you know, what what may be a good peer for one person might not necessarily be a good peer for another.
852
01:05:25.505 --> 01:05:28.405
I think a lot of that really depends on
853
01:05:29.345 --> 01:05:33.525
what your flows and the flows of your users are are really looking like.
854
01:05:33.830 --> 01:05:38.490
You know? Like, you wanna make sure that your liquidity is accommodating to the flows that your users
855
01:05:39.110 --> 01:05:41.290
are going through on a regular basis
856
01:05:41.775 --> 01:05:43.155
more so than anything else.
857
01:05:47.055 --> 01:05:47.555
858
01:05:49.150 --> 01:05:52.130
859
01:05:55.550 --> 01:05:55.870
The
860
01:05:56.415 --> 01:06:02.575
I mean, I you you mentioned something that was interesting there, Fiat, Jeff. I mean, like, right now, like, it's so
861
01:06:03.375 --> 01:06:04.675
we don't even know,
862
01:06:08.829 --> 01:06:12.609
like, it's so experimental. Like, you can't really like, I have
863
01:06:13.069 --> 01:06:16.235
I have, at least on l and d, like, I'll just have
864
01:06:16.615 --> 01:06:19.755
channels just get closed that I didn't close,
865
01:06:20.295 --> 01:06:21.275
that were just,
866
01:06:22.020 --> 01:06:22.760
you know,
867
01:06:23.460 --> 01:06:25.000
they they they just closed themselves.
868
01:06:25.860 --> 01:06:29.560
And I don't believe that they I at first, I didn't believe they closed themselves,
869
01:06:31.815 --> 01:06:32.315
except
870
01:06:32.855 --> 01:06:39.434
I saw, like, a couple channels closed that, like, were with people that, like, I really trusted, and they, like, swore to me that they didn't close the channel.
871
01:06:40.295 --> 01:06:43.440
Yep. So, like, there's, like, phantom closes happening.
872
01:06:44.859 --> 01:06:48.960
873
01:06:49.295 --> 01:06:53.555
Yeah. I I think a lot of people have a lot of issues with that, getting bad circuits.
874
01:06:54.095 --> 01:06:55.395
875
01:06:55.695 --> 01:06:59.900
this is a screenshot from last week, May 11th. Right? And here's the screenshot from today.
876
01:07:02.680 --> 01:07:07.100
How do you jump up so much? Like, I'm green. I'm good. I'm not unstable anymore.
877
01:07:09.285 --> 01:07:12.905
878
01:07:13.285 --> 01:07:16.825
879
01:07:17.690 --> 01:07:21.390
Yeah. The Tor thing is interesting. Right? Because, like, if you're talking about
880
01:07:24.375 --> 01:07:30.315
if you're talking about sovereign lightning nodes, right, like, they should be running Tor only. But if you're gonna talk about uptime,
881
01:07:33.410 --> 01:07:39.109
you know, obviously, you'd be better off if you're running in, like, Amazon's main server farm in Clearnet.
882
01:07:40.565 --> 01:07:44.345
883
01:07:44.964 --> 01:07:48.184
you know, really into the routing and you're willing to
884
01:07:48.740 --> 01:07:51.000
make yourself public facing on Clearnet
885
01:07:51.700 --> 01:07:56.040
or you're more so catering yourself towards personal use and privacy.
886
01:07:56.815 --> 01:07:57.295
And,
887
01:07:57.775 --> 01:08:03.555
Yeah. I I think they're very much different, and they come with their own unique set of challenges. And,
888
01:08:04.059 --> 01:08:06.319
you know, they're not gonna perform the same,
889
01:08:06.700 --> 01:08:09.280
under the same conditions just because of that network,
890
01:08:09.740 --> 01:08:10.240
alone.
891
01:08:14.744 --> 01:08:15.565
892
01:08:17.545 --> 01:08:18.045
So,
893
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:24.380
so last week, I accidentally or maybe 2 weeks ago, I accidentally said that you were,
894
01:08:25.480 --> 01:08:26.300
the maintainer
895
01:08:26.679 --> 01:08:29.865
of Fiat Jaffe. I said you were the maintainer of this Immortan,
896
01:08:30.765 --> 01:08:32.185
I guess, lightning implementation,
897
01:08:33.525 --> 01:08:34.505
which you aren't.
898
01:08:35.090 --> 01:08:44.285
But do you wanna talk about it? Like, you're one of the I I you're the one who brought it to my attention. So Do we know for sure, though? I mean, Fiat Jaff is a NIM. Okay?
899
01:08:44.685 --> 01:08:45.185
900
01:08:45.485 --> 01:08:47.105
like, who's to say for sure?
901
01:08:48.525 --> 01:08:49.025
902
01:08:49.645 --> 01:08:52.625
I would I would love to be the author of this, but, I'm not.
903
01:08:56.110 --> 01:09:03.325
And, well, I can't I can't speak. You you should try to get Anton here on the show on the show, but he he won't give interviews to anyone, I think.
904
01:09:05.165 --> 01:09:06.385
So I'm I'm trying my best.
905
01:09:07.325 --> 01:09:08.865
The the idea is that,
906
01:09:09.485 --> 01:09:12.225
like, the POW was a was a
907
01:09:12.610 --> 01:09:15.910
custom implementation tool. People say it was based on a clear,
908
01:09:16.450 --> 01:09:17.670
like, open on Saturday
909
01:09:18.210 --> 01:09:19.110
last week, but,
910
01:09:19.570 --> 01:09:20.895
it it isn't really.
911
01:09:21.375 --> 01:09:29.955
It it he just took the the cryptographic functions and encoding functions from a clear, but all the the logic, the lightning logic is is custom.
912
01:09:30.330 --> 01:09:32.590
And he's doing it again on Immorton.
913
01:09:34.250 --> 01:09:35.390
Basically, he says,
914
01:09:36.250 --> 01:09:44.285
Immorton has 2 difference, 2 key differences from from the BOW. 1 is that it has hosted channels, like, in a more prominent
915
01:09:44.905 --> 01:09:45.405
space.
916
01:09:46.265 --> 01:09:46.765
And
917
01:09:47.400 --> 01:09:52.380
the hosted channels on on BLW, like, the v one hosted channels, they were just
918
01:09:53.080 --> 01:09:53.820
on the
919
01:09:54.255 --> 01:09:55.554
on the edges of
920
01:09:55.934 --> 01:09:59.875
you you you only have a hosted channel between your BOW and a nuclear server.
921
01:10:00.655 --> 01:10:08.500
And with Martin, he created a parallel network of hosted channels that can route payments. So you can have,
922
01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:09.780
2 Eclairs
923
01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:11.780
and a hosting channel between them,
924
01:10:12.365 --> 01:10:14.705
and they can sit in the middle of a route,
925
01:10:15.085 --> 01:10:17.265
and you can initiate a a payment
926
01:10:17.645 --> 01:10:19.665
from your Immorton based wallet
927
01:10:19.965 --> 01:10:25.480
that passes through that hosted channel. You can't advertise that channel on the on the global
928
01:10:25.780 --> 01:10:27.960
channel lightning channel graph because,
929
01:10:29.220 --> 01:10:29.960
it requires
930
01:10:30.340 --> 01:10:36.075
the the the the protocol requires you to have an on chain utic so for that. But he made a
931
01:10:37.015 --> 01:10:41.340
separate gossip mechanism for to announce these channels, and, the Immorta wallet
932
01:10:42.280 --> 01:10:49.180
understands that. And also the eclair hosted channels plug in understand that. So they they know about the channel. Once you know that
933
01:10:56.645 --> 01:11:00.300
thing, Like, he's very he loves trampoline routing now.
934
01:11:02.599 --> 01:11:04.139
And using trampoline routing,
935
01:11:05.304 --> 01:11:06.684
one one note can
936
01:11:07.385 --> 01:11:12.764
outsource. Like, they can they can route a payment through your immortal mobile wallet.
937
01:11:13.090 --> 01:11:15.349
So if your if your mobile wallet is online,
938
01:11:16.690 --> 01:11:18.150
you'll connect to a node,
939
01:11:19.090 --> 01:11:22.389
and the node if the node understands that trampoline thing,
940
01:11:23.125 --> 01:11:25.304
they can route the payment through through you
941
01:11:25.605 --> 01:11:26.665
to another place,
942
01:11:27.125 --> 01:11:32.105
like, using another channel you your mobile wallet has. So it's good for the beer
943
01:11:32.540 --> 01:11:33.040
that
944
01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:39.760
they if it it can be like a hosted channel or a normal channel between the the immortal node and the
945
01:11:40.105 --> 01:11:40.605
server.
946
01:11:41.705 --> 01:11:47.085
It's good for the peer that the sets don't get stuck in that channel because on a normal,
947
01:11:47.785 --> 01:11:49.325
on a normal mobile wallet,
948
01:11:50.090 --> 01:11:52.670
if someone opens a channel to that wallet or
949
01:11:53.210 --> 01:12:00.475
the the wallet opens a channel to to that to that note, the sets, they they're stuck there. Like, between your Breeze Wallet and the Breeze
950
01:12:02.295 --> 01:12:06.395
server, there's a channel, and the Breeze server has sets on that channel,
951
01:12:06.900 --> 01:12:13.560
but they can't get the sets out unless they close the channel. So they they're there. But if using this this technique,
952
01:12:14.020 --> 01:12:15.639
you can send a payment
953
01:12:16.525 --> 01:12:22.705
from the server to the wallet and then to elsewhere. So you can clean up your your sets from that channel.
954
01:12:23.244 --> 01:12:24.784
Anyway, I hope that's clear.
955
01:12:25.550 --> 01:12:27.570
So that these 2 big improvements.
956
01:12:27.950 --> 01:12:29.970
Also also the ability to
957
01:12:30.510 --> 01:12:32.690
I'm not sure this is doable right now.
958
01:12:33.150 --> 01:12:34.130
Actually, it is.
959
01:12:34.625 --> 01:12:36.965
Like, the ability to the ability to
960
01:12:38.625 --> 01:12:43.125
send a payment that passes through a private channel and then goes on,
961
01:12:43.650 --> 01:12:45.510
that breaks the the heuristic,
962
01:12:46.770 --> 01:12:53.025
that's like a private channel is always the end of the payment because you don't know maybe now that payment will still go on.
963
01:12:53.824 --> 01:13:00.405
So it's good for privacy, very good for privacy. Drake's one of the big problems of Lightning privacy that Anthony
964
01:13:01.470 --> 01:13:02.290
talked about.
965
01:13:02.830 --> 01:13:03.730
966
01:13:04.590 --> 01:13:05.470
to break it down
967
01:13:06.990 --> 01:13:08.290
so so,
968
01:13:08.675 --> 01:13:10.535
basically, all of our Lightning implementations
969
01:13:11.235 --> 01:13:13.495
so far have been focused on,
970
01:13:15.395 --> 01:13:19.250
full node users, This idea that you use your own node, and it's almost like
971
01:13:20.270 --> 01:13:33.275
after the fact, after like, a second tier of user is the user who's gonna be a light user, and, you know, we'll make these different trade offs to to make that possible for them to use it without their own node. While Immortan seems like
972
01:13:34.370 --> 01:13:39.030
just an acceptance that not every user is gonna use their own node, so there should be a
973
01:13:39.490 --> 01:13:47.405
implementation that's focused on on light users, users that aren't using their own node. Right? Like, from the ground up, it should be focused on that and those trade offs.
974
01:13:48.329 --> 01:13:52.590
975
01:13:53.369 --> 01:14:03.505
implementation are focused on servers, I think. Right. Those nodes are online all the time. And then they they they realized you could have Lightning note wallets on on phones.
976
01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:07.980
But I think, like, BOW lets you use your own Bitcoin node.
977
01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:14.875
By default, it doesn't, but you can point to your own Bitcoin node. Maybe Mortem will too.
978
01:14:15.735 --> 01:14:21.040
So, yeah, you can still use your your own node, but it's focused on the the lite mobile
979
01:14:22.060 --> 01:14:22.560
wallet.
980
01:14:25.905 --> 01:14:26.405
So,
981
01:14:29.744 --> 01:14:33.045
982
01:14:34.730 --> 01:14:48.275
983
01:14:49.700 --> 01:14:53.080
It's exciting. It might be a really good solution alongside,
984
01:14:53.700 --> 01:14:56.920
you know, rolling your own L and D or messing with rust lightning.
985
01:14:58.055 --> 01:15:02.875
Yeah. We we'd really love to play around with it. I mean, it's interesting. Right? Because, like,
986
01:15:05.610 --> 01:15:10.430
987
01:15:11.450 --> 01:15:13.950
Lightning nodes. I use Zeus to connect to them.
988
01:15:14.765 --> 01:15:23.680
But at the end of the day, like, if I'm gonna accept a quick payment or something, like, I I prefer to use Moon. Like, it's just it's just cleaner. I like that it's just all built in. You know?
989
01:15:24.480 --> 01:15:31.060
And I feel like there's something to be said there about something like a Morden if if you have something that's literally designed for,
990
01:15:34.065 --> 01:15:42.165
basically, mobile users. Right? And then then I don't have to deal with, you know, my tour circuit working or any of that shit, and I can I can leave the heavy lifting
991
01:15:42.530 --> 01:15:45.110
for those notes at a different time if I want?
992
01:15:46.370 --> 01:15:51.430
993
01:15:51.915 --> 01:15:56.575
You know what I mean? If I'm just trying to accept a cool $10, $20 at the bar from a friend,
994
01:15:57.035 --> 01:16:03.680
995
01:16:04.060 --> 01:16:09.760
And I'm gonna dox my public key to him, you know, at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone that he shares it with by accident.
996
01:16:10.264 --> 01:16:13.724
997
01:16:14.025 --> 01:16:22.889
with these new routing types to get receiver privacy, but, you know, things are are sort of hairy right now. So it's
998
01:16:23.190 --> 01:16:27.290
completely to normal to be using different wallets for different function.
999
01:16:28.185 --> 01:16:32.285
1000
01:16:32.825 --> 01:16:34.605
Morten makes it evil too.
1001
01:16:36.610 --> 01:16:39.190
1002
01:16:39.650 --> 01:16:40.150
1003
01:16:40.770 --> 01:16:46.230
1004
01:16:47.635 --> 01:16:49.095
1005
01:16:49.795 --> 01:16:56.420
1006
01:16:57.040 --> 01:17:00.560
you know, on on Twitter and stuff. Like, look. I don't know if you guys can see,
1007
01:17:01.200 --> 01:17:06.344
on the top left hand corner, we can see, like, all the how many freaks are tuning in through the live,
1008
01:17:07.605 --> 01:17:08.344
live streams.
1009
01:17:08.804 --> 01:17:12.824
It shows the total number of freaks. I'm not sure if they show that to you. Do they show that to you?
1010
01:17:13.790 --> 01:17:16.130
1011
01:17:17.150 --> 01:17:20.450
1012
01:17:20.805 --> 01:17:27.385
we were fucking 10 x where we are right now. Right? Like, when you get when you get, like, an hour and a half into, like, a technical conversation,
1013
01:17:28.805 --> 01:17:33.660
you only have the ride or dies left. And and and the hidden secret with Bitcoin
1014
01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:37.340
is, you know, if you if you care about engagement,
1015
01:17:38.025 --> 01:17:45.165
the two things that that work for you are either heavy fear or which doesn't even work as well, but the real thing that works
1016
01:17:45.545 --> 01:17:47.630
is just heavy bullishness. You just
1017
01:17:47.949 --> 01:17:55.969
you put bullishness on everything, which is why, like, this is a technical show, but I constantly reiterate in that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Right? Because you gotta tow the line.
1018
01:17:57.934 --> 01:18:01.715
But so so the issue is the the issue that you see is,
1019
01:18:03.215 --> 01:18:05.474
you see people ignore these things
1020
01:18:06.030 --> 01:18:08.050
that, you know, bingo, nuance
1021
01:18:08.590 --> 01:18:20.025
that that, you know, we should be critical of and we should be concerned about. And the big thing for me for a while and still is is that Ellen Big has, like, half the public capacity of the network.
1022
01:18:20.350 --> 01:18:21.810
It's a little bit less now,
1023
01:18:23.390 --> 01:18:33.255
and everyone just glosses that over when they're set talking about public capacity numbers. Right? And if you mix it with Ellen Big and then you do, like, the top 3 regulated KYC services
1024
01:18:33.875 --> 01:18:37.975
that are on lightning, right, then you're, like, 75% of the network's public capacity
1025
01:18:38.870 --> 01:18:45.910
are these, you know, the small group of of institutions, and we have no idea who LN Big is. So it could very well be
1026
01:18:46.615 --> 01:18:57.340
you know, I've heard people speculate and I really don't have any desire to speculate, but I've heard people speculate it's like a a rich Russian Bitcoiner who just wants to see the lightning network grow and is throwing a bunch of money in.
1027
01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:02.540
I respect that. That would be awesome. You know? I mean, I I'm not, you know,
1028
01:19:03.080 --> 01:19:13.244
I don't have his kind of money, and I'm not Russian, but I did similar with our stacking stats note. I just threw a shit ton of money into it, to just try and jump start the whole thing and encourage people to,
1029
01:19:13.600 --> 01:19:15.699
you know, experiment with these kind of things.
1030
01:19:16.239 --> 01:19:19.460
But at the end of the day, whoever this unknown entity is is running,
1031
01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:20.580
you know,
1032
01:19:21.034 --> 01:19:29.480
tens, like, 50 nodes all in from the same, like, server farm that's, like, in Langley, Virginia, like, right next to where the CIA's base is.
1033
01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:36.855
And and, like, there's only, like, 3 of us that call it out that's that ever fucking talk about it. No one talks about it.
1034
01:19:38.695 --> 01:19:40.715
1035
01:19:41.015 --> 01:19:42.875
as if Ellen Big is
1036
01:19:43.495 --> 01:19:43.995
CIA?
1037
01:19:44.810 --> 01:19:46.750
1038
01:19:47.210 --> 01:19:55.265
1039
01:19:55.805 --> 01:19:59.105
side? Like, when a morn comes out, we gotta review that code. Come on.
1040
01:20:01.325 --> 01:20:02.730
1041
01:20:03.030 --> 01:20:08.570
the analogy that I brought up in the the past is, like, tour is funded by 3 letter agencies. Right?
1042
01:20:09.555 --> 01:20:16.135
So it doesn't mean that, you know, Tor is inherently bad, but it doesn't make the 3 letter agencies any better for funding it.
1043
01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:20.220
1044
01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:23.980
and the the anonymity set that it creates.
1045
01:20:24.360 --> 01:20:24.860
So
1046
01:20:26.485 --> 01:20:32.105
it makes sense. It doesn't really devalue it really if you could verify what it actually does, but,
1047
01:20:32.780 --> 01:20:36.560
1048
01:20:37.020 --> 01:20:44.055
it makes a lot of sense that Tor is not, you know, designed for an environment where the US government is adversarial towards it.
1049
01:20:44.755 --> 01:20:48.215
Right? And, like, there there was never designed that way. And
1050
01:20:48.860 --> 01:20:53.599
I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, the money behind it happens to be the US government. Right?
1051
01:20:54.300 --> 01:20:59.265
1052
01:21:00.365 --> 01:21:01.905
these output nodes. Right?
1053
01:21:03.645 --> 01:21:06.465
You know, that they could be just pound overnight. Right?
1054
01:21:06.845 --> 01:21:11.350
But we go do mostly, it it serves our purposes really well.
1055
01:21:12.050 --> 01:21:14.630
1056
01:21:16.735 --> 01:21:19.395
And we had Anthony in the comments defending them.
1057
01:21:20.015 --> 01:21:23.535
We should be more concerned about all the random nodes than Ellen Bigg. I've
1058
01:21:24.495 --> 01:21:24.995
why?
1059
01:21:27.350 --> 01:21:36.330
1060
01:21:36.935 --> 01:21:41.275
because I'm very naive. I also believe Satoshi Nakamoto is a young Japanese boy.
1061
01:21:44.855 --> 01:21:45.675
So that's
1062
01:21:47.460 --> 01:21:50.039
my imagination is it. It's very
1063
01:21:51.940 --> 01:21:52.440
Yeah.
1064
01:21:53.875 --> 01:21:55.255
1065
01:21:56.434 --> 01:21:58.775
I'm, I'm on board with that theory.
1066
01:21:59.715 --> 01:22:00.215
At
1067
01:22:01.155 --> 01:22:03.380
least we know, Ellen, but it's hard to
1068
01:22:18.605 --> 01:22:19.745
They're talking about Alan.
1069
01:22:20.500 --> 01:22:24.600
1070
01:22:27.355 --> 01:22:30.255
Yeah. It's it's absolutely because of talking about Allan Vic.
1071
01:22:30.875 --> 01:22:31.375
But,
1072
01:22:32.395 --> 01:22:35.375
yeah, I mean, as far as, like, connecting to a random node,
1073
01:22:36.390 --> 01:22:39.370
you know, can you hear me now? No. There we go.
1074
01:22:40.150 --> 01:22:41.050
Yeah. You're back.
1075
01:22:41.429 --> 01:22:42.650
I think. Apologies.
1076
01:22:43.245 --> 01:22:48.465
1077
01:22:49.885 --> 01:22:52.225
1078
01:22:53.010 --> 01:22:54.550
Actually, don't answer that too.
1079
01:22:56.370 --> 01:23:01.750
1080
01:23:02.985 --> 01:23:03.485
1081
01:23:04.665 --> 01:23:05.725
Or for the course.
1082
01:23:06.905 --> 01:23:10.284
1083
01:23:10.679 --> 01:23:14.300
1084
01:23:15.239 --> 01:23:16.619
We'll appreciate that.
1085
01:23:18.925 --> 01:23:28.545
1086
01:23:29.119 --> 01:23:36.500
you gotta discount you gotta at least discount the public capacity that's provided by LNB because it's all provided by a single entity. Right? So
1087
01:23:40.405 --> 01:23:40.905
1088
01:23:41.445 --> 01:23:50.150
stay on the note of random nodes, though. And Anthony makes a pretty good point in that you sorta have to trust all your counterparties
1089
01:23:50.450 --> 01:23:51.670
on lightning. Right?
1090
01:23:52.290 --> 01:23:55.990
You're trusting them to not close your channel at an inconvenient time.
1091
01:23:56.325 --> 01:24:00.105
But, also, if you're routing payments through them and they're your first hop out,
1092
01:24:01.285 --> 01:24:02.344
they're gonna know,
1093
01:24:02.805 --> 01:24:05.310
you know, that's coming from you and
1094
01:24:05.929 --> 01:24:20.955
where it's going next. Right? So you're trusting them in that regard. Yeah. But they don't they don't know if you're the one originating that payment. No. No. They know that you're just passing something along. Yeah. But still, it adds up. If you end up using a route multiple times,
1095
01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:25.139
they can start, you know, creating a profile on you of some sort.
1096
01:24:26.159 --> 01:24:26.980
So while,
1097
01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:29.139
you have some
1098
01:24:29.465 --> 01:24:37.325
guarantees and that, you know, it's not necessarily coming from you, you could be another hop in the net. They could start still start making some assumptions about you.
1099
01:24:39.980 --> 01:24:44.000
So for the most part, I'd say on land, it's better to have counterparties that you trust.
1100
01:24:49.425 --> 01:24:49.925
Yeah.
1101
01:24:50.784 --> 01:24:53.685
1102
01:24:55.870 --> 01:24:57.890
1103
01:24:58.430 --> 01:25:05.785
I mean, we were so I I feel like we were sold that it was, you know, that wasn't the case. Right? It was just it was, like, poor
1104
01:25:06.805 --> 01:25:07.945
expectation management.
1105
01:25:08.645 --> 01:25:10.825
1106
01:25:11.285 --> 01:25:13.545
like, trustless in nature got
1107
01:25:14.590 --> 01:25:15.250
and whatnot.
1108
01:25:15.950 --> 01:25:20.690
And, also, things getting learned on the fly as we have this new experimental network
1109
01:25:21.265 --> 01:25:23.525
that really only been around, what, 3 years now.
1110
01:25:24.304 --> 01:25:28.245
We're still learning things, you know, every day, really, like new
1111
01:25:28.625 --> 01:25:29.870
1112
01:25:30.350 --> 01:25:35.650
1113
01:25:36.110 --> 01:25:38.610
You know, this is a really nascent network, and
1114
01:25:39.645 --> 01:25:42.465
I wouldn't blame that part really much as, like,
1115
01:25:42.844 --> 01:25:46.704
you know, bad marketing or, like, fraudulent marketing like other product
1116
01:25:47.099 --> 01:25:52.239
products in the space have, but more so not really knowing all the constraints of it out the gate.
1117
01:25:54.195 --> 01:25:58.775
1118
01:25:59.315 --> 01:25:59.815
that
1119
01:26:00.515 --> 01:26:05.740
like, touch dryer and Joseph Phung, I think, the the guys that invented the Light Net Network.
1120
01:26:06.360 --> 01:26:06.860
Uh-huh.
1121
01:26:07.720 --> 01:26:16.125
Yep. Desiree, like, he he he tells something like that. Joseph was very excited in saying that. I think he even says that in the original presentation,
1122
01:26:16.745 --> 01:26:18.845
the from 2,000 and 15,
1123
01:26:19.305 --> 01:26:22.285
that lightning network will allow us to route,
1124
01:26:22.719 --> 01:26:27.060
like, dozens of millions of, I don't know, a very large number and
1125
01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:31.860
made all that hype about it while while Tej was very
1126
01:26:32.495 --> 01:26:39.875
cultures and didn't he says he didn't really believe it was going to be such a such a powerful thing.
1127
01:26:40.310 --> 01:26:42.570
And then Josephine went to material.
1128
01:26:43.510 --> 01:26:44.250
So that's
1129
01:26:44.790 --> 01:26:47.050
common, like, expected behavior.
1130
01:26:47.665 --> 01:26:50.805
1131
01:26:51.185 --> 01:26:53.585
he makes an interesting point. I mean, I I don't know if it's
1132
01:26:55.260 --> 01:26:55.920
it's just
1133
01:26:56.300 --> 01:26:58.719
a lot of aspects of of the lightning ecosystem
1134
01:26:59.020 --> 01:27:01.039
feel a little bit shit coiny, you know,
1135
01:27:02.135 --> 01:27:04.695
or, like, less adversarial. It's it doesn't,
1136
01:27:05.175 --> 01:27:06.955
and that's not to degrade the
1137
01:27:07.575 --> 01:27:10.875
the devs who work on it all the time. I mean, I have so much respect,
1138
01:27:11.970 --> 01:27:16.710
for all the devs that are are contributing to lightning projects and making it more robust.
1139
01:27:18.610 --> 01:27:22.845
But it does it it's like the portion of Bitcoin that's, like, less adversarial. Right?
1140
01:27:23.385 --> 01:27:25.405
It's like our it's like our fun
1141
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:37.035
sandbox where you can do all these different things and kinda you you know, hashtag reckless. Right? Like, imagine if, like, Bitcoin core devs were like, oh, run Bitcoin core, you know, hashtag reckless.
1142
01:27:37.575 --> 01:27:42.155
1143
01:27:42.610 --> 01:27:51.910
But, no. I mean, listen. It's it's supposed to be your checking account. Right? This is their funds that you wanna be able to move at a moment's notice.
1144
01:27:52.515 --> 01:27:58.055
And, there's a trade off in the security model to accommodate for that. Yeah? Right. So
1145
01:27:58.915 --> 01:28:01.335
it's definitely not where you wanna have
1146
01:28:02.139 --> 01:28:08.835
the majority of your savings on. Right? You know, it's just like what you're trying to to move in your month or whatever
1147
01:28:10.114 --> 01:28:15.495
Until the next time you have to rebalance or or open new channel channels. You know?
1148
01:28:17.555 --> 01:28:18.055
1149
01:28:20.570 --> 01:28:26.110
Okay. So, I mean, on to the next topic. While we have you here, Fia, Jeff, you have this project
1150
01:28:26.765 --> 01:28:28.525
that I'm gonna butcher the name,
1151
01:28:30.525 --> 01:28:31.025
antetilineum?
1152
01:28:32.284 --> 01:28:32.784
Antilium?
1153
01:28:34.045 --> 01:28:34.545
Atlinium.
1154
01:28:35.380 --> 01:28:35.880
Atlinium.
1155
01:28:36.740 --> 01:28:42.805
Horrible name, dude. It's a really bad name. So you wanna talk to the freaks about what it is and why they should care?
1156
01:28:44.325 --> 01:28:46.345
1157
01:28:48.725 --> 01:28:50.425
the the idea of smart contracts,
1158
01:28:51.845 --> 01:28:52.610
it it's
1159
01:28:53.090 --> 01:28:55.670
was on my mind for a long time, and
1160
01:28:56.530 --> 01:29:00.869
I I realized that they they could be useful, like, as a programmable
1161
01:29:02.305 --> 01:29:02.805
escrow,
1162
01:29:03.425 --> 01:29:03.925
like,
1163
01:29:04.305 --> 01:29:10.645
they could you put money in there and something happens, and people can trust that. They don't have to
1164
01:29:10.980 --> 01:29:13.080
trust absolutely, but they can trust
1165
01:29:13.620 --> 01:29:18.725
that the person there's not a person interested in, like, that can steal from that
1166
01:29:19.285 --> 01:29:21.225
from that contract, that escrow.
1167
01:29:22.565 --> 01:29:23.865
So I made this,
1168
01:29:24.565 --> 01:29:26.345
this explanation was terrible.
1169
01:29:27.489 --> 01:29:29.030
But the idea is that you can
1170
01:29:30.050 --> 01:29:39.905
it's like Ethereum, but on Ethereum, you have an escrow that is the the Ethereum network and the the nodes and the validation and the miners and so on. In this case, it's the same, but
1171
01:29:40.365 --> 01:29:41.825
this grow is a server
1172
01:29:42.205 --> 01:29:43.105
that I run.
1173
01:29:43.760 --> 01:29:48.020
And other people can post their their contracts there. Like, they write
1174
01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:52.260
some lines of code, and then they have a smart escrow
1175
01:29:52.895 --> 01:29:56.195
that they can use for other things. And someone
1176
01:29:56.575 --> 01:30:02.630
using that doesn't have to trust the person who wrote the code. They only have to trust me in this case,
1177
01:30:04.610 --> 01:30:13.215
1178
01:30:13.915 --> 01:30:21.130
But but because this trusted third party it's like the uncle Jim model. Right? Like, the trusted third party can have competition. There's a bunch of different providers.
1179
01:30:21.670 --> 01:30:22.570
You know, ideally,
1180
01:30:23.430 --> 01:30:25.130
there aren't, but if there were,
1181
01:30:25.670 --> 01:30:29.755
then you could get away with that trust model more. Is that the that's the argument basically. Right?
1182
01:30:30.295 --> 01:30:31.595
1183
01:30:32.055 --> 01:30:33.275
is is like
1184
01:30:33.815 --> 01:30:36.075
separating the the person who that
1185
01:30:36.730 --> 01:30:37.949
ensures you that,
1186
01:30:38.489 --> 01:30:46.575
like, guarantees your money, like, holds your money and guarantees that some code will be run. Separating that from the person who wrote the code.
1187
01:30:47.515 --> 01:30:49.855
1188
01:30:50.555 --> 01:30:51.935
the simple use case
1189
01:30:53.120 --> 01:30:56.260
is is this prediction market betting use case.
1190
01:30:57.040 --> 01:31:00.980
1191
01:31:01.535 --> 01:31:02.035
1192
01:31:03.295 --> 01:31:03.795
Yeah.
1193
01:31:04.175 --> 01:31:09.155
1194
01:31:09.940 --> 01:31:12.119
1195
01:31:12.659 --> 01:31:18.199
are not very good. You you I had to make another one that uses a different calculation for the
1196
01:31:18.755 --> 01:31:20.135
for the market, like
1197
01:31:20.835 --> 01:31:21.335
because
1198
01:31:21.715 --> 01:31:25.095
otherwise, you you pay you you can't buy a lot of shares.
1199
01:31:25.875 --> 01:31:27.080
Otherwise, you pay up
1200
01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:29.980
the the the probability will go sky
1201
01:31:30.440 --> 01:31:40.455
high. So you have to buy 1, buy a few shares and tell someone else to buy the others, but it still works like that way. Like, it's it has a market is market,
1202
01:31:41.074 --> 01:31:42.935
automated market maker thing
1203
01:31:43.715 --> 01:31:44.215
that,
1204
01:31:44.860 --> 01:31:45.360
like,
1205
01:31:47.260 --> 01:31:47.760
just
1206
01:31:48.139 --> 01:31:50.239
you don't need another book for that.
1207
01:31:50.540 --> 01:31:54.755
So it's good in that way. But on the other hand, it's not very optimized for
1208
01:31:55.775 --> 01:32:00.195
large volumes. And also the idea that the person who created the the contract
1209
01:32:01.219 --> 01:32:03.320
resolves it is not ideal.
1210
01:32:04.340 --> 01:32:05.640
Like, the person who
1211
01:32:06.739 --> 01:32:12.375
1212
01:32:12.755 --> 01:32:16.070
where the Oracle is a separate person, doesn't know what the bets are.
1213
01:32:16.949 --> 01:32:18.570
But I I do feel like,
1214
01:32:19.909 --> 01:32:22.550
I mean, when I got into Bitcoin, my first use case
1215
01:32:23.110 --> 01:32:24.165
I mean, I think,
1216
01:32:24.565 --> 01:32:35.420
you know, the obvious use case was was gambling. Right? I mean, you had Satoshi Dice, but you also had we had Black Tuesday in America where they basically just, like, cut off all the online betting sites.
1217
01:32:37.400 --> 01:32:43.685
And, yeah, like, it's, you know, online betting now in the United States has become, you know, more legal, and you have the
1218
01:32:44.385 --> 01:32:48.325
you know, you have Portnoy playing in it with Penn Gaming, and you have DraftKings,
1219
01:32:49.130 --> 01:32:51.869
and, you know, you you have Yahoo, you have all these different
1220
01:32:52.329 --> 01:32:54.750
regulated services that offer online betting.
1221
01:32:55.290 --> 01:32:55.790
But,
1222
01:32:58.485 --> 01:33:02.665
to me, there's this massive demand for, you know, no k y c, frictionless
1223
01:33:03.525 --> 01:33:04.585
Bitcoin gambling,
1224
01:33:05.150 --> 01:33:09.810
whether that's, you know we can call it gambling or we can call it prediction markets. It's the same shit.
1225
01:33:11.710 --> 01:33:12.210
And
1226
01:33:13.345 --> 01:33:18.565
it's like everyone's just trying to reinvent the wheel almost. You know? It's like I've I've been in the space for
1227
01:33:19.105 --> 01:33:20.165
8 plus years,
1228
01:33:22.430 --> 01:33:25.970
and everyone's trying to overcomplicate it. Like, I just need, like,
1229
01:33:26.750 --> 01:33:29.090
a a relatively simple liquid site
1230
01:33:29.705 --> 01:33:37.965
that's not not like liquid Bitcoin, like, a site that has enough volume. Right? That that I don't care if it's centralized. You know? Let me just bet with lightning,
1231
01:33:38.490 --> 01:33:40.110
get in and out of my bets easily,
1232
01:33:40.810 --> 01:33:42.910
call it a day. Like, I don't you know?
1233
01:33:43.290 --> 01:33:47.710
1234
01:33:48.055 --> 01:33:49.835
1235
01:33:50.135 --> 01:33:53.595
aren't legally allowed to gamble on elections. So,
1236
01:33:54.935 --> 01:33:59.590
all those regulated services I just mentioned simply cannot have any election bets.
1237
01:34:00.050 --> 01:34:03.190
Right? So we had this major election come and go,
1238
01:34:03.570 --> 01:34:08.815
and there was, like, nobody was offering it. Like, the Ethereum guys have, like, this super complicated augur.
1239
01:34:09.195 --> 01:34:16.060
You know, the DLC guys are talking about DLCs left and right, discreet log contracts, but you couldn't there was no easy way to bet on it.
1240
01:34:17.420 --> 01:34:21.440
That was a failure in my mind. Right? Like, that's that's ridiculous that it's 2021.
1241
01:34:22.540 --> 01:34:29.865
1242
01:34:30.325 --> 01:34:33.305
And and if you do the order book thing,
1243
01:34:34.190 --> 01:34:35.090
it's impossible
1244
01:34:35.550 --> 01:34:43.675
because no one's going to put orders on the site without liquidity. And when someone one joins the site, they don't find any orders, so so empty.
1245
01:34:43.975 --> 01:34:44.475
So
1246
01:34:44.935 --> 01:34:53.890
it's very hard to to get going. So the automated market makes a thing. It it solves that part, but I think no one has used it on the wild.
1247
01:34:54.510 --> 01:34:56.050
It's, I copied
1248
01:34:56.350 --> 01:34:58.050
the the code from the Hivemind
1249
01:34:58.670 --> 01:34:59.170
project.
1250
01:35:00.295 --> 01:35:02.235
And the other problem is that the law
1251
01:35:02.695 --> 01:35:04.075
rate. You you could have
1252
01:35:04.535 --> 01:35:05.035
yeah.
1253
01:35:05.735 --> 01:35:09.520
When when this this market start to getting to get interesting,
1254
01:35:10.619 --> 01:35:12.320
they always they always fail.
1255
01:35:12.699 --> 01:35:18.764
They always like, the government always shut them down. And you could do if you watch the the post tours,
1256
01:35:19.385 --> 01:35:20.525
presentation on Hivemind,
1257
01:35:22.344 --> 01:35:26.390
you can do a ton of interesting things with this with this betting market.
1258
01:35:27.090 --> 01:35:33.110
And you can do conditional betting, and you you can, like, extract a lot of knowledge from the society,
1259
01:35:34.415 --> 01:35:37.075
from from these markets using these markets.
1260
01:35:37.775 --> 01:35:42.990
But the problem is that the law will always be against it. So you need a system like Bitcoin,
1261
01:35:43.690 --> 01:35:44.910
I think, for this.
1262
01:35:45.450 --> 01:35:47.390
I think a system that is very
1263
01:35:48.810 --> 01:35:49.950
censorship resistant.
1264
01:35:51.495 --> 01:35:57.515
So, yeah, we don't predict on market. Predict on market is a toy, like, to showcase the the
1265
01:35:58.570 --> 01:36:00.730
the algorithm the the the the
1266
01:36:02.570 --> 01:36:05.310
sorry. The automated market maker algorithm
1267
01:36:06.655 --> 01:36:11.635
to show that it works even with, like, very few users, you can still buy shares.
1268
01:36:12.015 --> 01:36:15.720
You don't depend on someone else going on the site at the same time and
1269
01:36:16.360 --> 01:36:18.300
staying there, something like that.
1270
01:36:19.560 --> 01:36:25.180
But the other part, the censorship resistant part is very important. That's why I I wanted to see your hive mind working.
1271
01:36:25.864 --> 01:36:27.385
1272
01:36:28.264 --> 01:36:30.125
I it'd be who me to mention,
1273
01:36:31.784 --> 01:36:32.764
you know, economics
1274
01:36:33.145 --> 01:36:33.625
geek,
1275
01:36:34.344 --> 01:36:35.165
Nick Carter,
1276
01:36:35.530 --> 01:36:42.490
our boy Nick Carter, like, he thinks, like, prediction markets would be awesome for corn futures because corn futures, I guess, are illegal, and we we like
1277
01:36:43.610 --> 01:36:50.975
he he thinks that'd be a fun use for prediction markets. But prediction markets are really fucking cool, this idea that you can gamble on an outcome because
1278
01:36:51.515 --> 01:36:55.055
it goes back to the video games that we were talking about with the video games.
1279
01:36:55.700 --> 01:36:59.800
You have stats on the line. You actually have skin in the game. So those predictions,
1280
01:37:00.900 --> 01:37:02.680
the way those betting markets go
1281
01:37:03.235 --> 01:37:03.735
should
1282
01:37:04.195 --> 01:37:05.415
be way more likely,
1283
01:37:06.195 --> 01:37:07.415
outcome wise
1284
01:37:07.955 --> 01:37:15.260
than if you if you have, like, a centralized polling provider or something like that. And a perfect example in Bitcoin land right now
1285
01:37:15.800 --> 01:37:16.540
is, like,
1286
01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:21.980
where the fuck is our betting markets on on whether or not when Taproot's gonna get activated?
1287
01:37:22.775 --> 01:37:30.155
Right? Like, that should be when I start this show or when I do rabbit hole recap on Thursday and I'm talking about how likely it is for Taproot
1288
01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:47.680
to get activated. It shouldn't be based on some engagement account on Twitter that's saying, oh, 90% of mining pools are are saying it's activated. It should be on a very liquid betting site that says, you know, 10,000 Bitcoin are saying that, you know, Taprid is gonna be activated in the next month and a half,
1289
01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:53.700
and we don't have that. It's crazy that we don't have that. I am not saying
1290
01:37:54.560 --> 01:38:02.364
I deserve shit because I'm not gonna build that. I don't I don't want to have that liability on me, but some NIM some enterprising NIM somewhere
1291
01:38:03.065 --> 01:38:04.765
in the Seychelles or some shit
1292
01:38:05.160 --> 01:38:08.380
should have, like, the the this that service should be available.
1293
01:38:09.800 --> 01:38:15.225
1294
01:38:15.925 --> 01:38:18.505
are really just rolling now, and I think
1295
01:38:18.885 --> 01:38:21.545
we're gonna see a lot more services using them,
1296
01:38:21.940 --> 01:38:22.600
you know,
1297
01:38:23.300 --> 01:38:24.920
in in the next year even.
1298
01:38:25.540 --> 01:38:26.280
And furthermore,
1299
01:38:26.659 --> 01:38:30.040
we don't even have DLCs on lightning yet. We we need to get Taproot activated,
1300
01:38:30.500 --> 01:38:31.000
and
1301
01:38:31.415 --> 01:38:35.035
that's gonna be a game changer in itself. So a lot of people,
1302
01:38:35.655 --> 01:38:41.850
you know, probably have an idea of of what they want their infrastructure to look like, and it's just not technically possible yet,
1303
01:38:42.550 --> 01:38:44.570
with the state of the blockchain right now.
1304
01:38:47.885 --> 01:38:56.380
1305
01:38:57.159 --> 01:39:00.060
1306
01:39:01.400 --> 01:39:09.135
Let's hear this. Let's hear this. I wanna hear your opinion on it. Yeah. I wanna hear the rundown. Oh, I I don't know very much about Stack, but I know that Blockstack
1307
01:39:09.594 --> 01:39:13.855
has been lying since they were created. Like, they make a ton of marketing about
1308
01:39:14.290 --> 01:39:16.630
doing something something blockchain, something
1309
01:39:17.170 --> 01:39:21.110
decentralized, something like they don't explain what they're doing, and no one cares. No one looks.
1310
01:39:23.255 --> 01:39:27.515
When when you go look inside the the blocks, I think they have decentralized
1311
01:39:27.895 --> 01:39:35.870
apps. It was all fake because the apps were just running in a cloud server that you could host yourself. Like, is this a normal app?
1312
01:39:36.650 --> 01:39:40.715
You can't host apps normally. And then you store the data on a decentralized
1313
01:39:41.095 --> 01:39:46.635
network that's just a server that you can run, but everybody run their the server that they offered
1314
01:39:46.935 --> 01:39:47.595
by default.
1315
01:39:48.490 --> 01:39:52.590
And then they they buy a ton of Bitcoiners with this they they they give
1316
01:39:52.890 --> 01:39:55.710
money for Bitcoiners to build apps that integrated
1317
01:39:56.010 --> 01:39:56.830
block stack.
1318
01:39:57.435 --> 01:40:02.495
And oh, I don't know. It's it's so terrible. And then they made this tax thing that's a shitcoin.
1319
01:40:03.115 --> 01:40:07.300
And they say they say it's based on Bitcoin, but it's it's not
1320
01:40:07.840 --> 01:40:15.685
okay. I don't know. I don't know the details about Stack, but I know it's not based on Bitcoin. It's not a side chain. And they say it is, so
1321
01:40:16.545 --> 01:40:25.060
1322
01:40:25.520 --> 01:40:39.235
I remember everyone was super proud of them. There was, like, all the congratulations were going out on Bitcoin Twitter. I was like, guys, like, can we not congratulate someone for getting regulatory approval to to dump a shit coin on retail? And then I got a lot of shit for that, and here we are.
1323
01:40:40.450 --> 01:40:45.350
I haven't looked at that chart lately, but I assume it's pretty just trending to 0 with everything else.
1324
01:40:46.985 --> 01:40:50.445
No. I mean, this is my same concern with RSK. Right? Like, RSK
1325
01:40:51.385 --> 01:40:59.490
has got, like, shitcoin vibes all over it. It's got the fucking token. You know? I don't know what to believe there. Would you agree, Fiat, Jeff? Like, how is that different than RSK?
1326
01:41:00.990 --> 01:41:02.050
1327
01:41:02.830 --> 01:41:07.755
a a real side chain if you if you consider the Federated peg side
1328
01:41:08.055 --> 01:41:11.275
chain. So you can really move Bitcoins there
1329
01:41:12.055 --> 01:41:13.355
and transact Bitcoins
1330
01:41:13.900 --> 01:41:16.880
and move them move them back, features their their model.
1331
01:41:17.500 --> 01:41:20.080
1332
01:41:21.395 --> 01:41:28.855
1333
01:41:30.580 --> 01:41:32.100
I'm not sure. Like, the token
1334
01:41:32.900 --> 01:41:36.120
I I we need to Stacks token for?
1335
01:41:37.060 --> 01:41:39.960
You can't move Bitcoin to the Stacks blockchain,
1336
01:41:40.945 --> 01:41:42.885
and you can't move the Bitcoins back.
1337
01:41:44.225 --> 01:41:50.770
But you can do it on RSK. That's the purpose of RSK. The token was like a money grab thing to finance
1338
01:41:51.389 --> 01:41:53.730
the the stuff. I don't know. I don't like the token.
1339
01:41:54.429 --> 01:42:02.344
But I'm saying it's different it's different projects. Like, one is trying to be a side chain even if they have a shady token. The other is just a shitcoin
1340
01:42:03.045 --> 01:42:04.985
that markets itself will rely.
1341
01:42:05.640 --> 01:42:11.020
1342
01:42:12.905 --> 01:42:14.125
Well, I'd have you.
1343
01:42:17.545 --> 01:42:20.204
1344
01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:28.460
1345
01:42:28.855 --> 01:42:32.715
1346
01:42:33.335 --> 01:42:35.835
1347
01:42:36.230 --> 01:42:41.050
They have their NFT shit coins, like planets, universes, stars. They're all trainable.
1348
01:42:41.670 --> 01:42:52.785
1349
01:42:53.165 --> 01:43:00.180
on the network, and we need a net a blockchain to do it, and they've decided to do it on Ethereum, and then we launch this token.
1350
01:43:01.255 --> 01:43:01.755
1351
01:43:02.135 --> 01:43:04.795
But they're switching to Bitcoin, but it still has the
1352
01:43:05.895 --> 01:43:18.140
Well Like, that's what people don't realize. Like, I like, my issue with shit tokens isn't that they're on Ethereum. It's like they're like, oh, if we put the shit token on liquid, then the Bitcoiners will like it. Like, I still don't like your shit token.
1353
01:43:18.585 --> 01:43:22.365
1354
01:43:22.825 --> 01:43:24.605
can exist besides Bitcoin?
1355
01:43:27.250 --> 01:43:33.030
1356
01:43:33.489 --> 01:43:33.989
1357
01:43:34.345 --> 01:43:35.165
Yeah. Sort
1358
01:43:36.985 --> 01:43:42.925
1359
01:43:43.460 --> 01:43:47.480
1360
01:43:48.420 --> 01:43:56.655
1361
01:43:58.554 --> 01:44:00.415
1362
01:44:01.110 --> 01:44:02.650
1363
01:44:04.710 --> 01:44:09.290
1364
01:44:10.405 --> 01:44:10.905
Yeah.
1365
01:44:12.645 --> 01:44:15.145
I I think that there's some assets that
1366
01:44:15.605 --> 01:44:18.264
maybe you can own that aren't money
1367
01:44:18.680 --> 01:44:21.660
that you can transfer, but, I'm not sure about the
1368
01:44:22.120 --> 01:44:23.340
concrete examples.
1369
01:44:23.880 --> 01:44:25.180
Is gold a shitcoin? Governance
1370
01:44:25.880 --> 01:44:30.875
1371
01:44:32.695 --> 01:44:33.994
1372
01:44:36.570 --> 01:44:43.835
1373
01:44:44.395 --> 01:44:45.375
it did fit.
1374
01:44:47.114 --> 01:44:49.055
What do you think? Do you think gold's a shitcoin?
1375
01:44:53.679 --> 01:44:54.179
1376
01:44:56.159 --> 01:44:57.060
I think no.
1377
01:44:57.520 --> 01:45:00.820
1378
01:45:02.095 --> 01:45:09.475
Yep. Yep. So if gold's not a shitcoin, then I I think I would agree that Tether is not a shitcoin, or, like, a Tether gold, right, wouldn't be a shitcoin.
1379
01:45:10.050 --> 01:45:13.270
If you don't think gold like, if if the asset that is backing
1380
01:45:13.810 --> 01:45:19.110
whatever, you know, you're, like, you're relying on a trusted third party. It's an IOU, but maybe it's not a shitcoin.
1381
01:45:19.925 --> 01:45:21.785
But I think gold's a shitcoin, so
1382
01:45:22.085 --> 01:45:23.625
the IOU is also shitcoin.
1383
01:45:24.805 --> 01:45:31.370
1384
01:45:32.070 --> 01:45:34.810
If you if the shitcoins are the ships and planets,
1385
01:45:35.864 --> 01:45:42.844
they are they are properties, like, they're digital properties in the on the they're closed network that you can join by buying a ship.
1386
01:45:44.470 --> 01:45:49.690
Digital real estate? Digital real estate. Yeah. Maybe these are these aren't shitcoin. But
1387
01:45:50.150 --> 01:45:51.805
1388
01:45:52.285 --> 01:45:58.065
1389
01:45:58.525 --> 01:46:01.790
1390
01:46:02.270 --> 01:46:05.010
1391
01:46:06.270 --> 01:46:10.050
1392
01:46:11.074 --> 01:46:11.574
1393
01:46:11.875 --> 01:46:14.215
1394
01:46:15.795 --> 01:46:18.135
1395
01:46:18.490 --> 01:46:20.270
Who knows their shitcoin?
1396
01:46:21.130 --> 01:46:22.270
1397
01:46:22.730 --> 01:46:23.630
1398
01:46:24.010 --> 01:46:32.905
1399
01:46:33.740 --> 01:46:37.120
a malicious individual figured out that all you had to do is compromise a single,
1400
01:46:37.580 --> 01:46:41.440
algorithm to compromise the whole system. What was the name of that Chickcoin?
1401
01:46:45.265 --> 01:46:46.165
1402
01:46:47.185 --> 01:46:50.245
1403
01:46:51.510 --> 01:46:54.650
I think it was Verge. Right? Dogecoin dark or whatever.
1404
01:46:55.270 --> 01:46:55.770
1405
01:46:56.870 --> 01:47:00.810
1406
01:47:02.695 --> 01:47:04.235
our Shitcoin trivia show.
1407
01:47:04.935 --> 01:47:07.355
1408
01:47:08.760 --> 01:47:12.699
the Uniswap example on Ethereum. I don't know if you know about this.
1409
01:47:13.480 --> 01:47:18.235
Probably, you know. But there's the Uniswap thing that doesn't have a token,
1410
01:47:18.614 --> 01:47:22.155
and it's kinda useful thing in the context of Ethereum.
1411
01:47:23.094 --> 01:47:26.074
And then they launched another version that has a shitcoin.
1412
01:47:26.940 --> 01:47:36.475
I think that's the definition. Like, you don't need that. You had it working without the shitcoin, and then you launch itself that is a point, and you invented some some crap that shitcoin does.
1413
01:47:36.775 --> 01:47:41.355
1414
01:47:41.655 --> 01:47:45.275
It was a competing product released it with a shitcoin that
1415
01:47:45.640 --> 01:47:47.580
that made you money if you used it.
1416
01:47:48.120 --> 01:48:00.575
The pancake swap or something? No. It was sushi swap. Sushi. I fuck I fucking hate that I know this. It was SushiSwap, and then they were taking all the volume from Uniswap, so then Uniswap added their own token because they didn't want the volume to get taken.
1417
01:48:01.035 --> 01:48:01.775
And then
1418
01:48:02.090 --> 01:48:02.590
c
1419
01:48:03.130 --> 01:48:08.430
z Binance c z fucking just completely cloned the whole Ethereum chain
1420
01:48:08.810 --> 01:48:13.355
and made it super centralized with 3 second blocks, and he called it Binance Smart Chain.
1421
01:48:13.975 --> 01:48:15.835
And on that, he created
1422
01:48:16.295 --> 01:48:16.795
PancakeSwap,
1423
01:48:17.175 --> 01:48:26.940
which is a direct copy of Uniswap and SushiSwap, but is on Binance Smart Chain. So that's that's what's going on in Bitcoin land right now. What what CZ did was he saw
1424
01:48:27.560 --> 01:48:29.260
1425
01:48:29.865 --> 01:48:43.630
1426
01:48:44.090 --> 01:48:54.005
1427
01:48:54.500 --> 01:48:56.600
You you just have to trust the server.
1428
01:48:58.100 --> 01:48:59.160
1429
01:49:00.660 --> 01:49:04.875
Yeah. It's not solved. I mean, that's the main issue of the Oracle problem. Right? It's like a trusted third party.
1430
01:49:05.655 --> 01:49:07.835
1431
01:49:08.790 --> 01:49:09.290
Atlenium
1432
01:49:09.670 --> 01:49:10.170
structure.
1433
01:49:10.710 --> 01:49:11.210
So
1434
01:49:12.790 --> 01:49:27.090
1435
01:49:27.870 --> 01:49:30.610
It's just that if if you start centralizing
1436
01:49:30.910 --> 01:49:32.690
to try and reduce fees and friction,
1437
01:49:33.205 --> 01:49:38.344
someone else is gonna come that centralizes further, and you're just gonna it's a race to the bottom. You're just gonna have to compete.
1438
01:49:38.804 --> 01:49:45.659
And, Bitcoiners don't talk about it a lot with the BSC thing, but it's like their b cash, but it's actually being done by a,
1439
01:49:46.280 --> 01:49:52.535
you know, a a player who's actually very sophisticated in the market, Binance, you know, one of the, probably the most,
1440
01:49:53.635 --> 01:49:55.495
popular exchange by volume.
1441
01:49:57.155 --> 01:50:05.000
I mean, who knows how much volume is real, but but he's, like, actually executing on this shit, and he uses the same fucking addresses. Right? Like, we we had,
1442
01:50:06.100 --> 01:50:20.090
it's literally the same exact address format. If you look at a BSC address, it looks exactly like an Ethereum address. You can't tell the difference. It's it's an it's exactly the same address. You can switch between even as a setting, you can switch MetaMask that just switches to his chain.
1443
01:50:20.969 --> 01:50:31.835
And, like, now we have Portnoy Portnoy. I'm not gonna say the name of the shitcoin, but Portnoy is still the bottom of the battle of shitcoin. Guess what chain it's on? It's on BSC. It's not on Ethereum. So they've played themselves,
1444
01:50:32.295 --> 01:50:34.395
and it's it's just pretty fucking hilarious,
1445
01:50:35.095 --> 01:50:36.555
case study to watch unfold.
1446
01:50:37.520 --> 01:50:38.580
1447
01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:44.900