May 12, 2021
CD21: the lightning network and bitcoin privacy with @openoms and @cycryptr
EPISODE: 0.2.1
BLOCK: 683157
PRICE: 1759 sats per dollar
TOPICS: bitcoin and lightning privacy
@openoms: https://twitter.com/openoms
@cycryptr: https://twitter.com/cycryptr
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00:00 - The impact of the Fed on fiscal transfers
02:57 - The future of the dollar as a reserve currency
08:12 - Privacy considerations in the Lightning Network
48:48 - The process of exchanging funds in Lightning
49:28 - Complexity and risks of the process
50:09 - Custodial risk and the future of custodial wallets
51:06 - Managing on-chain funds separately from Lightning implementation
52:46 - The Rings of Fire initiative
54:47 - Building a more distributed and resilient Lightning network
01:13:31 - The importance of sovereignty and personal responsibility in Bitcoin
01:35:45 - Discussion about the possibility of spinning the situation the other way and the role of Bitcoin in ransomware attacks
01:38:25 - The importance of improving Bitcoin in response to the rise of other currencies in private digital transactions
01:49:31 - Discussion about Taproot activation and the possibility of manipulation by mining pools
02:23:34 - Issues with Lightning Network force closing channels
02:24:41 - Recommendations for managing Lightning Network channels
02:25:34 - Challenges with routing peers in Lightning Network
02:27:48 - Static channel backups and disaster recovery
02:33:23 - Discussion on the risks and benefits of Liquid Network
03:11:36 - Supporting alternative projects
03:12:26 - Job opportunity at Noddle
03:13:32 - Appreciation for live audience
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:11 PM
Duration: 12090.331
Channels: 1
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And 85% of the transactions are still done in in in the dollar.
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You pointed out in in a recent speech that you think we've crossed the Rubicon.
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Are are you comfortable saying what what you said there that that that for the first time in your career, you think we lose
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reserve status
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at some point?
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I'm comfortable with it. That's my central case. As you know, Joe, I can change my mind.
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But yeah.
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You said
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that to some extent,
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the Fed is enabling the fiscal transfers.
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It's not to some extent. They couldn't be doing this without the Fed. The Fed is monetizing their activity.
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I mentioned all the QE after vaccine confirmation and retail sales.
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We've had 850,000,000,000
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of direct transfers.
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575,000,000,000
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of them came after retail sales
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were above trend. 575
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of the 850,000,000,000.
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I'm old enough to remember the the bond market vigilantes.
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I used to be one of them. Without the Fed buying, I don't know what the exact number is. I think it's 60% of all the debt issued
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that the bond markets would be totally rejecting this.
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So they are enabling
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this massive expansion in fiscal policy. And the problem is
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if you end up getting inflation,
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and frankly,
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even if you don't,
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the debt is gonna be so big.
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You remember I did my entitlement talks 8 or 9 years ago. That's all happened except for one thing, the interest rate level.
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So we're right now in the crux of when the demographic
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when the baby boomers accelerate
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in terms of of getting Medicare, Medicaid, social security, that stuff.
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Right as we're doing that, we just put 6,000,000,000,000
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of new debt on. Again, all enabled by the fed. These guys cannot be doing it. Bond rates would go to a prohibitive level. So my my issue here is
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in the future,
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as we go forward,
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if you look at do you have chart 5 up there?
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Let's get it. I think we can do it. Which one?
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It's federal spending. Social Security and major health care programs.
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Federal spending is percent of GDP.
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This is the CBO. This is not me.
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Okay? And they're saying
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if 10 years go to 4.9%,
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which is their normalized projection,
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the interest expense alone
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will be close to 30% of GDP
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every year. That's basically what we just spent on the COVID emergency
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in the last year.
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There is no way
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we can afford to have 30% of all government outlays be be toward interest expense. So what will happen is the Fed will have to monetize that. When they monetize it,
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I believe
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it'll have horrible implications for the dollar. And that's why I said in that speech,
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yes, that I think it's more likely than not within 15 years we lose reserve currency status.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another
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Citadel dispatch.
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It's been oh, I heard another pop. Love to hear that. There's a vehicle pop.
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Let's fucking go. It's been 21 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row with all y'all.
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How is that? That is that is insane to me. That is crazy. I fucking love it.
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21 straight. This is Citadel Dispatch episode 21,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
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To all of the freaks coming in through our audio streams, That was legendary investor Stanley Drunkenmiller with our boy Joe Kernan on CNBC,
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calling for the end of
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the reserve status for the US dollar,
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and not sounding like a crazy person on mainstream financial television.
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That's pretty fucking ridiculous to me, and I feel like that is not quite priced in. But,
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there's plenty of people on Bitcoin Twitter that would probably disagree with me on that one.
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I want to do a quick shout out to all the ride or dive freaks who come in every week for this live chat.
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You guys make the show what it is.
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Without you, it, you know, it it just it wouldn't happen. So I I appreciate all y'all, and I want you to, be active as always in the live chat,
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so we can work off of you. And then, of course, I just wanna do another quick shout out to all the freaks
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that have been supporting the show,
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through the various methods, whether that's podcasting 2.0, streaming stats,
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or Sphinx tribe, Citadel dispatch,
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going to citadel dispatch.com,
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or the handy little lnurl
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that we have at the bottom left hand corner of the video streams.
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As always, this video stream is being going is going out to Twitch, Twitter, and YouTube.
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Now we also have it going out to bitcoin tv.com.
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If you use it over there, you can participate in the chat, but you do get the benefit of going through sovereign servers rather than corporate servers.
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With all that said,
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I wanna do I wanna thank our 2 guests here today for joining us. We have Open Arms, return guest. You guys all know him,
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Good friend,
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who just you know, he one of my favorite parts about Open Arms is after almost every episode,
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he sends me a breakdown of,
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things that either I got wrong or the guest got wrong. So I appreciate that Open Arms.
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Well, my man hi, everyone.
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Not every not every episode of this.
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Not every episode, but you're pretty you're pretty good about it, and I do appreciate it. You do make the show better. Yeah. That's true.
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Thank you very much. And and we have Anthony Ronning,
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who
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is a ride or die freak himself. I'm pretty sure he's been in this live chat almost all of the 21 episodes,
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and he's an independent software engineer. And this week, he released
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a great rundown of
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Lightning Privacy
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and
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the nuances of it and the shortcomings
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and the future, and we're gonna be going all into that. How's it going, Anthony?
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Hey, everyone.
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No. It's an honor, to be on. Thanks for having me. Long time listener, first time guest.
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Yeah. I didn't even realize it was the 21st episode. That's crazy.
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Yeah. No. I'm excited to dive into the topic. It's,
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it's been a very interesting month, researching it myself.
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And it's one of me and Open Arms' favorite topics. I think it's one of the favorite topics of the show in general.
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We started off the show with varied topics, but I think if you broke down the 21 episodes,
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most of them are about lightning and privacy.
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So I feel like this is kind of a culmination episode in a lot of ways.
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So let's start off with this post. I mean, I don't know how we wanna go about it.
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The link, if to the freaks that are not aware,
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is on the bottom of the screen. A bytesjourney.com/lightningdash
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privacy.
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It's a great post. If you haven't read it yet, consider going and reading it after the show.
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So where do you where do you guys wanna start on this? Do you guys have, you know
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Yeah. I I think,
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maybe as as part of a inspiration of of why I wanted to write it. I'm
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I've been playing around with lightning for quite a while and kinda got serious,
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with my own lightning note about, you know, 6 or 7 months ago with, my raspi plits.
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Love the thing. Shout out to OpenNoms
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and the team there.
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And, you know, one of the things I I
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I never felt comfortable with was, like, sharing my node identity with people, because it, you know, has my all my UTXOs and,
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you know, invoice and stuff. So I think, like, a large part of the inspiration was just trying to figure out myself, like, okay, how would if I were to restart and get get a brand new node, how should I go about,
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you know, trying to achieve privacy on the Lightning Network? And everyone's kinda default has been, yeah. Yeah. Lightning is private.
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And it's kind of funny. Edward Snowden even, this weekend, you know, called out and and called lightning shenanigans, which I think that was maybe a misspoke,
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for the most part, an overreaction maybe. But, yeah, I think, you know, it's not
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just hand wavy private. And I think that's one of the main, you know, things I wanted to get out of the article is that there's, you know, there's always nuance, but there's tons of nuance here.
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And, you know, I'm I'm happy to dive into it anyway, but, one of the main things is just there's there's a lot of ways to go about it.
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To try to achieve privacy,
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you know, from setting up your node to funding it, opening channels,
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even closing channels, and what you do with the outputs from there, and,
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even sending payments and and the types of things that, you know, can be revealed as you send payments across the network.
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Yeah. Now it's it's a big topic, so I'm happy to, you know, start the computation off anyway.
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For starters, I think you make a very good point there. I I think when it comes to privacy in general,
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if you hear anyone ever hand waving things
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and telling you that you have absolute perfect privacy
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and not explaining any kind of trade offs or nuances,
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They're probably acting in bad faith, or they don't know better. But either way, you shouldn't be
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you should be extra skeptical of anything that comes out in that direction.
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So, I mean, yeah, let's so let's jump in here. I mean, one of my concerns about lightning
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or
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I I guess, let's start with the positive. The positive is
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pure the pure positive of Lightning is that with Bitcoin,
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we have all of our transactions
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on a public ledger
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that we expect to last forever. And when I mean forever, I mean forever, ever. Right? Like, this thing is gonna last for a long fucking time.
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It's designed to be extremely robust,
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and that record of all your transactions will always be there.
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So from a a a pure
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over like, a a big picture kind of point of view,
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Lightning is a strict improvement over that
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because your transactions aren't stored on this thing.
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For a lot of the things that we're gonna talk about here for this post,
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it involves an active attacker, an attacker who is, you know, constantly surveilling the lightning network
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and recording that data for themselves forever. Right? They're they're they're actually doing active surveillance.
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With
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with the Bitcoin main chain,
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what we what we see happen a lot is an attacker can come in after the fact. They can come in 4 years later, 5 years later, and they can look at all that historical data and use it against you.
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Would you say that's a fair,
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like, entry overview here?
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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That and that's a really good distinction too.
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Pretty much 90, 95% of the article is,
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you know, what an active attacker could do. So yeah.
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Yeah. This is this is like what can be done with active
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real time surveillance
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versus
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what information is out in the open forever on the blockchain. So it is a huge difference.
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And, I mean, the article does go into a lot of detail and and and it's it's beautiful work,
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but also it shouldn't discourage people
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of using lightning. Right? But the only thing is it doesn't replace
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the on chain privacy. It
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can be built on top of that.
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But, yeah, there's lots of details. That's good. So,
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I mean,
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I don't even know where to start. So I I
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I,
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we could go we could just scroll through the article, but I feel like that's boring way of doing it.
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Why don't we why don't we start
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from the basis of this this show this show this this
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whatever this thing is, this show has
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a mainstay of it has been actionable Bitcoin discussion, like, things that Bitcoiners today can use. Not
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you know, we'll definitely go into the part of the post where you talk about the things that are happening in the future,
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that we can look forward to, and that and that would be massive improvements here for privacy.
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But what can Bitcoiners do today? I feel like a good way to start is, okay.
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I'm Anthony, or I'm Open Arms, or,
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and and I want to use Lightning in a private way in a in the in a the most private way,
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or a more private way or good enough private way? How do I go about that? What what should I be doing? What should my process be?
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Yeah. Absolutely. I I think, and for maybe the the listeners,
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at home, you know, if you wanna open
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very bottom, I kinda lay out the bullet points of, like, okay, if you skip the whole entire, like, 20 minute, 25 minute read, go to the very bottom. There's, you know, a bunch of different bullet points. I I like to separate it out from, like, senders versus receivers,
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because senders, you know, have
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tremendous privacy,
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gains over receivers on the Lightning Network. Right. With with receivers, you have to create the invoice.
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You have to basically let the sender know how to pay you. Right?
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And and by doing that, you send the invoice. You if you have private channels, you reveal your private channels to them.
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And, you know, one of the unfortunate things about,
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the Lightning Network that I learned is that the channel IDs
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that make up channels, whether if it's public or private,
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is actually derived from the UTXO information. So,
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it's it's, you know, the first number is the block number. The second number is the transaction height where the transaction sits in the block. And then the last number is the actual output, the UTXO of that transaction. So every single channel has a UTXO that you lock up.
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So whether if it's a private channel or public channel, if if you're if you're trying to hide your private channel UTXOs,
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and then you create an invoice and give that to, you know, anyone or a sender or whatever. You're trusting them basically with the knowledge that you own or you could own that UTXO.
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The Lightning Network's interesting because you you can't actually
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tell just by looking at a channel, you know, which peer in that channel owned it. If I have a channel with you, Matt,
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and, you know, me and you, we know who funded it. You know, maybe it was me that initiated the channel, maybe it was you.
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But to outsiders, they have no idea
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which one actually opened the channel, except if they actually start going through chain analysis and start analyzing,
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you know, change output addresses and and things like that to try to,
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try to reveal that. So, like, if I open a private channel with you
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and then I we close out that channel and I used to change or even if we didn't close out the channel, I used to change to open up a new public channel then, you know,
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that's kind of, you know, revealing information.
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But anyways, I I think, to Right from process of elimination. Right? Because there's there's only one party there that was a part of both channels.
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Yeah. Exactly. We're we're just now starting to get, dual funded channels, so that changes the dynamic a little bit. You're you're you're never outsiders are never really sure.
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Maybe both people funded the channel.
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You know, you can have multiple inputs
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into a channel and and you don't even know unless, you know, of course, again, you do chain analysis or with dual funded channels, an active attacker could try to initiate
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a, you know, dual funded channel request with you and then back out midway, and they could learn your UTXO
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through that process. So if
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you opened a new channel yeah. Exactly. You you're basically snooping,
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and trying to reveal get them to reveal their UTXO.
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But Yeah. He But yeah.
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Oh, go ahead, open ups. Yes. I just like to comment on this that,
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it's already
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like people getting focused of
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just funding a channel with or like a nerd with 1 UTXO,
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and it is
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absolutely correct as you said that if you use
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lightning for privacy and you use
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you just have have one private channel,
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and for that it makes sense to use only one UTXO.
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But if you are using a public one,
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a public channel and you are planning to
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open other public channels, that it doesn't really matter if you
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do reuse the change because it's public and tied to the node ID anyway.
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So it's it's kind of a thing which you need to decide how would you how would you want to go about this.
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Do you only want to have like a pay paying node which you will only use
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to pay invoices and, you know, close the channel when once emptied and just, you know, use one UTXO to fund that and throw it away afterwards. I mean, throw throw away the,
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node ID afterwards and don't use it.
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Or or you would just start out building up a lightning node and have one public channel and then have another one at at etcetera.
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So
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so so there's there's something interesting here, sort of breakdown.
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So we're, like, diving into the weeds really quickly. Yeah. Alright.
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The the there was a good point about the difference between sender and receiver.
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So with receiver,
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what people don't realize is how much information is in that in that invoice that you post.
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And a perfect example was when the lightning torch is going around.
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It was a very exciting time.
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I got called out because I used
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a BlueWallet, a custodial wallet, which is supposed to be against my ethos,
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to receive
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my
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lightning torch.
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And then I sent it out through my sovereign node, because I thought it was an important
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task to send it out through a sovereign node, especially since I sent it to Jack Dorsey who also received on his sovereign node. And people called me out, and they said, Matt, we, you know, we caught you doing this, yada yada yada. And the reason I did it was because I didn't wanna docks
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my my pub key
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out to the whole world. And at that point, we didn't even have,
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you know, Tor as the default or whatnot.
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So people were doxing their IP addresses, and they're just posting these invoices on Twitter. And, you know, Twitter is not gonna last as long as the Bitcoin ledger, but people should assume that anything they post on these public forums
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is couvered up and stored by, you know, corporate surveillance companies and state surveillance companies and ad companies and all this different shit.
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So they should kind of operate under that same assumption.
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So so a a a key thing that I'd like to teach people is if you wanna learn what's in your invoice, go to lightningdecoder.com.
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If you go to lightningdecoder
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dotcom and, obviously, you know, you're kind of doxing your invoice to them if you put it in, but it could be an invoice that someone's paying you. It'll show you everything
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that is in that invoice. It'll break it down for you.
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And, you know, a a big thing there is the
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if if you have private channels, it'll show private channel routing hints in there,
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because that's the only way a payer knows about the private channels. But more importantly,
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it shows your public key. And if and you have that public key, you can go on these lightning explorers like 1ml.com
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or Obaso,
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and it'll it'll show
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their public capacity, all their public channels,
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and it'll show their IP address if they're not running through Tor. And if if you have that IP address, you're able to
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determine
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an imprecise location,
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like, down to the town level, but a more sophisticated attacker might be able to figure out exactly who you are because most people's IP addresses are KYC'd.
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So
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with all that said, the actionable information there is the the the number one thing you should do is run your node through Tor. Unfortunately, all these major node packages now basically just default to it.
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So if you're running like a Raspberry Blitz,
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or a Nodl, or a Ronin Dojo oh, this one has doesn't have Lending, or Umbrel,
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or MyNode, it all runs through Tor automatically,
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which I think is a big deal to say.
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What else? Yeah. I I often use the analogy, or I used it before, that to have a clear net lightning node public
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with public channels,
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like a routing node running in your home
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with your home public IP, it's like,
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gluing your money out in the window.
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And you can be surprised if people are, you know,
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breaking it.
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But then the problem there lies in the fact that we're kind of I I think we're gonna see like, we're seeing a bit of a bifurcation of the network
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because you have these large public companies,
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that are running these large routing nodes through Clearnet because they're completely fine,
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you know, with running it on a VPS and and, you know,
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you know, dot they they're they're completely KYC regulated companies anyway.
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And they obviously have better uptime and connections than if you're running, like, a sovereign node through Tor. We saw when the Tor DDOS attacks were happening,
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that, like, Tor nodes were going down left and right. Right?
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So there's a So, actually,
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on that topic, it was interesting. My my Tor only lightning node was still,
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routing payments through
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through that downtime, that tore downtime. I think it only really affected,
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a new connection. So, like, if I had restarted my node
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exactly.
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I would have had an issue there. But,
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so starting a new connection, starting a new channel, that wasn't possible during the tour down times. But,
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well, since I already had my, you know, raspy blitz just always running, it actually stayed up during that downtime. I was kinda surprised. When we also have to rely on exit nodes though to connect to the clear the greater Clearnet network.
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So
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Yeah. So there's, like, there's there was 2 attacks that were happening at the same time. Right? There's the exit nodes attack, and then there's there's actually a DDOS within the Onion network.
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Yeah. And another thing with,
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Tor nodes is is
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IP nodes can't unless they're running both IP and Tor, which which you can do, IP nodes can't start a connection with you.
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You have to be the initiator. So
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even if you wanted,
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one thing you could do, like if have a friend that's running their IP node, first of all, slap your friend and tell them to get a Tor only node.
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But second of all, if they wanted to open channel with you, you can at least start a connection with them, a peer to peer connection with them, and then they can open the channel with you,
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if if you're Tor only. But, yeah, another option
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That's a feature, not a bug, Anthony. Because, like, when we when I switched the stacking sats node,
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our our public TFTC node,
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to Tor only, it, like, it just forced all the freaks because they weren't able I wouldn't let them connect unless they set up Tor on their node.
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Nice.
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Yeah. The there is a, like, a hack there if you are if you can run Tor even if you're not putting your LND behind it. Even if you have, like,
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a a a Tor browser open, you can use that proxy to connect
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to
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the Tor network. So you could actually connect if you, you know, put a couple of minutes in it.
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But, there is no point of that should go behind Tor anyway and should be but what is your Tor address
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So the the peers who are behind Tor can connect directly without leaving the Tor network.
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Let me ask you, Matt. When you switched over your your IP,
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did you, like, start a new node, or did you just kinda just switch the IPs?
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Well, so so I I did not start a new node because so this is the balancing act. Right? So you have a routing node.
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Well, first, I made a joke that the route node was stolen,
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which I but hilariously, like, you'd you'd think it was really obvious, but all the, like,
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b cashers and all the haters, like, all, like, just believed it point blank and just, like, used it as FUD,
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when I tweeted out that the node was stolen. But I said the node was stolen, and the the thief put it behind Tor.
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So I still had the IP address attached to it. And still to this day, if you look up the public key, you can see that old IP address.
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Then I had to trick my ISP into giving me a new IP address, so I had a non doxed IP address afterwards.
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And then I moved.
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Yeah. But I I
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I kept the I kept the same
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I kept the same node because we had all of our channels open already. So when, like, you're when when you're talking about,
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the potential of us going into a high fee environment,
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you know, you're talking about a situation where
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where you don't wanna hit the chain that often.
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Right?
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So, you know, it's really important
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that that node I still have that node up, but it's really important that we have the freaks, that we have Sovereign Bitcoiners
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setting up Sovereign routing nodes, small Sovereign routing nodes that they're running in hardware at at their own, you know, that they control, whether that's a home or office or something like that,
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for the long term because you don't wanna you don't wanna have to hit the chain in the future.
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And, of course, we wanna build our reputation, you know, on the the BOS scores or whatever,
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and we'll get into that. But
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so so when you're doing that, you have to be thinking into you have to be thinking to the future. A mistake you make,
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today
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and you you end up revealing some if you send 1 so
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so so let's jump into it. So so one of the the the main conclusions of the piece
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that I think is really important is that the most of the freaks understand
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why
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why you don't wanna combine UTXOs. When you combine UTXOs, you're linking them on chain, common ownership.
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When when you fund when you fund a node,
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especially a long term routing node that's gonna have many channels, and that's gonna have many UTXOs funding it, you should assume that all those UTXOs are linked together. You should assume that they're consolidated
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together.
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They're not actually consolidated together as much as a regular consolidation
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transaction is, but you should just assume that's the case as far as an attacker goes. So if you fund your lightning node with 1 non coin join UTXO, that's k y c'd or something,
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you basically have linked that node to your KYC information. Whoever has that KYC information could
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presumably link that node to you.
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So one of the most important things,
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takeaways, I think, is if you're running one of these long term sovereign nodes is that every UTXO that you do fund it with should be
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a post mix UTXO. They should be a CoinJoin UTXO, and I like to say that Lightning is a post mix tool.
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There's some people on
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Twitter who think that Lightning replaces CoinJoin.
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I think CoinJoin is, you know, is complimentary
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to Lightning.
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Yeah. And and one of the things that I've I've struggled with,
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is exactly that point.
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Saying, you know, it's it's a good, like, post mix tool,
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that all your channel should be funded with mixed, UTXO's.
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I kinda struggle with that because I, you know, like you
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said,
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consolidating
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post mix UTXOs, I mean, there's a certain point where that's not that's not a good thing to do. Right? And, like, if you maybe if we're talking about a couple, you have enough of it and on set to get away with it.
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But if you had
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a bunch of channels,
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funded with a bunch of different
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post mix UTXOs, I mean, that
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surely that degrades your end on set, like,
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a lot. Right? You're
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even if you're just opening private channels, one of the things in the article that I found out,
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in the last few weeks was that
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private channels are actually probable
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probe able.
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Someone could probe your
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they could send a bunch of spam payments through your node and attempt to find
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private channels.
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They just guess what a possible UTXO
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could have been that funded a private channel, and they send that through your node. And if it, like, goes on to the next node, and that next node passes back an error because, you know, maybe it was,
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you know, it was the wrong public key or something,
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You've essentially
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that attacker has essentially figured out, a private channel of yours and the UTXO going behind that private channel. So I so I guess, like, what I'm trying to make is, you know, I think there's a certain point, right, where if you're consolidating too many post UTXOs, it's not it's not a good thing. Right? But but, I mean, the takeaway is is
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look. If if if the goal is to spend privately on lightning,
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you really should just have 1 or 2 coinjoin UTXOs,
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and then you open 1 or 2 large channels to 1 or 2 routing nodes.
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And then you spend for a little bit, and then you get rid of it, and you start fresh again,
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with a new node.
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That is different though than if you're trying to run a long term routing node. And if you're trying to run a long term routing node,
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you know, the
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I I I
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never I it it's it's very easy to make mistakes with the coin join.
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There's, you know, it's there there
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I am not saying it's perfect privacy, and it's, you know,
405
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perfect privacy is something that,
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mostly scammers will say,
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but it is it is strictly an improvement over funding your node with anything else.
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The if you if you have if you have
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post mix that's consolidating, you're hurting your own in onset, and you're hurting the in onset
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of the other participants in your CoinJoin rounds,
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but that can be alleviated if we have more CoinJoin usage
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and if we have implementations
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that attempt to mitigate post mix consolidation.
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00:31:18.445 --> 00:31:18.945
Because
415
00:31:19.325 --> 00:31:20.785
we can't have implementations
416
00:31:21.405 --> 00:31:31.960
that assume that every actor and participant in a mix is going to be great after the mix. Right? That like, that's a that's a bad assumption. The assumption should be the opposite,
417
00:31:33.575 --> 00:31:34.955
and those implementations
418
00:31:35.255 --> 00:31:38.235
need to take that into account and improve in that regard.
419
00:31:40.050 --> 00:31:48.950
I would like to add here is that it probably helps if it's not from the same kind of coin joint round. So not not so you have some funds. You you
420
00:31:49.475 --> 00:31:55.015
throw it through very poor use, the joy market tumbler, you know, even if you use savvy
421
00:31:55.795 --> 00:31:59.670
and you found a node. I mean, first of all, it's best to decide
422
00:32:00.370 --> 00:32:02.150
what do you want to do with it. So
423
00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:07.110
1 or 2 channels, if it's just a spending node, or say you want to build a routing node well.
424
00:32:07.565 --> 00:32:12.625
Okay. I might need, like, half a Bitcoin for that, right, in in the long term. Okay?
425
00:32:13.644 --> 00:32:15.825
So you might just want to send,
426
00:32:17.190 --> 00:32:20.490
you know, a a 50,000,000 sets post mix,
427
00:32:21.110 --> 00:32:33.055
UTX on there. And and I'm not saying to open a a channel for half a Bitcoin straight, but you can keep using that because it's anyway, it will be tied together with the pop key. Basically, all the channels are UTXers,
428
00:32:33.915 --> 00:32:34.415
and
429
00:32:34.795 --> 00:32:44.490
they are advertised to belong to that same pop key. So it doesn't matter. Once you have put it in, it you can reuse it as many times as you like. And also,
430
00:32:44.855 --> 00:32:45.755
when you have
431
00:32:46.935 --> 00:32:52.799
sent so you have opened the channel, opened a couple of channels, and then you you can swap
432
00:32:53.100 --> 00:32:57.039
them from lightning back to on chain, and then from those swapped,
433
00:32:58.620 --> 00:33:08.625
UTX servers, which are now detached from the history again because they're belonging to, you know, the loop server of Lightning Labs, to the bot's exchange, to Bitfinex, whichever.
434
00:33:09.350 --> 00:33:09.850
Obviously,
435
00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:11.530
no key account
436
00:33:11.830 --> 00:33:12.570
on Bitfinex,
437
00:33:13.510 --> 00:33:14.010
then
438
00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:16.570
you can use them to
439
00:33:16.875 --> 00:33:18.415
to open further channels
440
00:33:18.715 --> 00:33:20.015
a bit. So
441
00:33:20.635 --> 00:33:21.135
yeah.
442
00:33:21.675 --> 00:33:27.330
I have I have to disagree just a little bit, on one one point. I think most of what you said was was great.
443
00:33:28.190 --> 00:33:36.115
One aspect of it, where you have, you know, maybe you have one, you know, half of Bitcoin UTXO, and and you say, okay. We'll use that
444
00:33:36.415 --> 00:33:45.940
in your public channel because you wanna be a routing node. You open a channel with that, and you use the change to open other channels. And I would have to say that wouldn't wouldn't be the best privacy because,
445
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:47.860
like I said earlier,
446
00:33:48.505 --> 00:33:51.385
you nobody from the outside really knows which,
447
00:33:52.025 --> 00:33:52.525
node
448
00:33:53.065 --> 00:33:54.205
owned that UTXO.
449
00:33:54.665 --> 00:34:00.190
If I'm opening up a channel with Matt, it could have been either of us that that open up that channel with that UTXO.
450
00:34:01.530 --> 00:34:06.325
The thing that gets you is if I open up a channel with Matt,
451
00:34:06.725 --> 00:34:08.825
I have a point, like, half of Bitcoin UTXO,
452
00:34:09.525 --> 00:34:13.340
open up a channel with him for with point 1, a 100 10,000,000 sats.
453
00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:16.880
You should be using SATs or not Bitcoin. Thank you.
454
00:34:18.140 --> 00:34:21.875
10,000,000 SATs, and and then I turn around with the 40,000,000,
455
00:34:22.495 --> 00:34:26.115
sets and and change that I get back, and I open up channel with you, OpenNoms.
456
00:34:26.655 --> 00:34:30.570
At that point, it's pretty clear that I owned both of those UTXOs.
457
00:34:30.950 --> 00:34:32.650
The original 50,000,000 SATs.
458
00:34:33.350 --> 00:34:37.415
True. Because the change address goes back to my note. So I would say, like, if if
459
00:34:38.215 --> 00:34:45.115
it it would suck, but, if you're if you're any change address after you open the channel, I I would say it would be best
460
00:34:45.660 --> 00:34:47.520
if you were to throw it back in a mixer.
461
00:34:48.220 --> 00:34:49.040
That's expensive.
462
00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:50.480
No. It's expensive.
463
00:34:50.859 --> 00:34:53.359
Yeah. I absolutely agree. I mean, I just
464
00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:55.484
yeah. I can't
465
00:34:55.865 --> 00:34:56.365
imagine
466
00:34:56.904 --> 00:34:59.805
someone, even myself, you know, following the practice perfectly.
467
00:35:00.505 --> 00:35:01.005
So,
468
00:35:01.384 --> 00:35:02.684
you know, I would just
469
00:35:02.990 --> 00:35:08.770
presume that whatever I found my note with it will be tied to, not me, but to the note.
470
00:35:09.070 --> 00:35:16.244
Right? And and you're absolutely right if you if you follow this perfect practice that you only you don't create change or or you
471
00:35:18.220 --> 00:35:23.840
deal with the change accordingly like like toxic change and you mix that as well every time,
472
00:35:24.355 --> 00:35:27.654
so don't use it to open another channel. And also when you close the
473
00:35:28.115 --> 00:35:29.335
channel then
474
00:35:29.635 --> 00:35:31.734
that will be not used for anything either.
475
00:35:32.270 --> 00:35:33.410
You know, that's a challenge,
476
00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:41.089
especially if there are no, you know, new features coming like dual funded channels, which are will be automatically manage your UTXOs.
477
00:35:41.605 --> 00:35:50.345
Also, the anchor commitments on on l and d, which do need the UTXO to to kind of, bump the fee of of channel closers.
478
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:59.820
And they would need some UTX funds reserved there or some funds reserved there. It's it's, yeah, it's it's close to impossible in in, like, in a,
479
00:36:00.185 --> 00:36:18.845
you know, with, like, imagine, like, 30, 40, 50, a 100 channels. It's it's close to impossible to to manage it perfectly. But, no, but that's the thing. We're talking about 2 different things. We're talking about 2 different things. Right? Because we have to separate it. If you're trying to be a spender Yep. Right, then you only should have, like, 2 or 3 channels max.
480
00:36:19.305 --> 00:36:24.925
And you're trying to spend privately. Right? You you you pick a couple large routing nodes, ideally ones that are Tor only,
481
00:36:26.369 --> 00:36:29.589
and you just you spend through those channels, and then you
482
00:36:29.890 --> 00:36:33.190
you you create a new node. So in that in that kind of,
483
00:36:33.515 --> 00:36:34.335
you know, educational
484
00:36:34.635 --> 00:36:35.994
kind of, notes
485
00:36:36.475 --> 00:36:43.135
report, like, node management report of mine, I've already, like, puts the 3 kind of major use cases of being of of
486
00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:52.810
what to help people decide why they are starting a node. So is it to be just a spending node, basically a privacy tool and to be able to use Bitcoin more cheaply and
487
00:36:53.415 --> 00:36:53.915
faster,
488
00:36:54.775 --> 00:37:04.819
or you you they would want to do to make it out, you know, then then exactly those are very different use cases. And if you have only 2 channels and one with the UTX's funding, you can,
489
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:12.295
follow this perfect practice which has been described to to always keep your on chain of the on chain balance basically
490
00:37:12.835 --> 00:37:14.535
just off in a mixer.
491
00:37:16.035 --> 00:37:33.525
Yeah. But I I do think your other point that you made that was a 100 percent correct. Like, once you do have that channel open, and you do want on chain funds, or whether to send to a specific address on chain whether or or to open up more channels from that. Yeah. Absolutely use something like loop out, lightning laps loop out,
492
00:37:34.545 --> 00:37:36.244
to spend from your channel,
493
00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:39.960
and to get basically someone else's UTXO.
494
00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:44.680
I I I would kinda lean on if you can, because you can,
495
00:37:45.605 --> 00:37:48.425
try to actually get other people's UTXOs,
496
00:37:49.045 --> 00:37:50.984
and not and not try to use
497
00:37:51.365 --> 00:37:55.350
your your your own mixed UTXOs, if you can. Like, I under, you know,
498
00:37:55.970 --> 00:37:59.350
while there's tools out there to acquire other people's UTXO's
499
00:37:59.730 --> 00:38:01.350
that are not linked to your identity,
500
00:38:01.895 --> 00:38:03.275
I kinda prefer that
501
00:38:03.655 --> 00:38:05.755
to using your your own mixed,
502
00:38:07.735 --> 00:38:16.619
UTXO's if you're going to be, like, a public routing node and and have all that associated. What you said about senders, you know, open 1 or 2 private channels, absolutely.
503
00:38:16.975 --> 00:38:19.715
Know, go ahead and do that with a few mixed UTXO's.
504
00:38:20.655 --> 00:38:27.120
But but yeah. Try to take advantage of the fact that people are basically giving away UTXOs for
505
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:30.880
Lightning Sats, which, you know, do a pretty good job.
506
00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:34.994
Lightning does a pretty good job of of hiding the sender for the most part.
507
00:38:35.395 --> 00:38:40.775
So take advantage of of the people selling UTXOs for for Sats on on the Lightning Network.
508
00:38:43.450 --> 00:38:48.190
Yep. Very good. I mean, but how would you go about that? So let's say so I fund my
509
00:38:49.045 --> 00:38:52.505
I fund my node. I'm trying to create a long term routing node.
510
00:38:54.885 --> 00:38:57.650
I fund it with, you know, a 50,000,000
511
00:38:57.950 --> 00:39:02.609
sat transaction because I'm a polar. What like, okay. So I do the 50,000,000
512
00:39:03.069 --> 00:39:12.195
sat transaction, which is a Yeah. I used them because that's the biggest pool at the Google. Right? I know. But, like, that that okay. So I fund it with $27,000.
513
00:39:14.690 --> 00:39:21.110
And then you, like, make a couple large channel. Oh, I'm I'm only supposed to make one large channel with that, I guess.
514
00:39:21.654 --> 00:39:22.154
Ideally.
515
00:39:22.615 --> 00:39:24.954
And then, if I wanna add more channels,
516
00:39:25.335 --> 00:39:26.474
what do I do next?
517
00:39:27.414 --> 00:39:28.154
From there,
518
00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:30.049
you could use,
519
00:39:30.369 --> 00:39:34.470
Lightning Labs loop out service, which basically, at this point, comes integrated
520
00:39:35.089 --> 00:39:39.155
into an application called Terminal that they make, which comes integrated with,
521
00:39:39.635 --> 00:39:40.135
RaspiBlitz
522
00:39:40.675 --> 00:39:45.415
and Umbrel and and probably some others as well. So you can use Lightning Labs loop out.
523
00:39:46.035 --> 00:39:53.030
What you end up doing is you end up paying what happens behind the scenes is is you end up paying 1 of Lightning Labs' invoices.
524
00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:58.484
That they charge a fee, of course, but you pay an invoice of theirs and then you receive,
525
00:40:00.145 --> 00:40:00.724
a UTXO
526
00:40:01.025 --> 00:40:13.869
to your Lightning Nodes address, or you can send it to a different address if you want. But for the purpose of what Matt's trying to describe here where you get back you want more UTXOs to create more channels, use something like Lightning Labs, Loop Out,
527
00:40:14.385 --> 00:40:17.525
spend some of your channel, you know, with your big 50,
528
00:40:18.065 --> 00:40:18.545
million,
529
00:40:18.865 --> 00:40:19.365
channel,
530
00:40:20.305 --> 00:40:27.300
you know, loop loop after that. Yeah. And get some on chain funds open more channels with There's capacity limits on loop out. Correct?
531
00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:29.119
So it's funny.
532
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:31.220
You know, I had actually
533
00:40:31.835 --> 00:40:34.095
just on sat on on Sunday,
534
00:40:34.474 --> 00:40:39.775
I had done a loop out probably the largest loop out I've ever done. I didn't expect it to actually go through,
535
00:40:40.890 --> 00:40:47.790
15,000,000 sets of loop out. Oh, wow. And it just it and and I got that for a few sets per, virtual bite,
536
00:40:48.175 --> 00:40:51.155
because And then you used that UTXO to open a new channel.
537
00:40:51.935 --> 00:40:52.435
Exactly.
538
00:40:53.215 --> 00:40:55.875
And then at that point, I so
539
00:40:56.309 --> 00:40:57.349
it's kinda funny.
540
00:40:57.750 --> 00:41:02.329
Like I said, the the the the note I started getting serious with about 6 months ago,
541
00:41:03.585 --> 00:41:08.885
it's it's I'm not following any of the things That's what I'm saying. To do in the article.
542
00:41:09.265 --> 00:41:25.234
I'm learning though. I'm learning what I'm supposed to do, and now since going through this article, I know what to do on, like, a new note. But it's it's one of those things where, like, I I don't feel comfortable, like, the way I've been behaving with my lightning node over the last 6 months to to really share that out with people just because it has
543
00:41:25.535 --> 00:41:28.260
a bunch of consolidated mixed UTXOs on there, which,
544
00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:30.420
full disclaimer, I use,
545
00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:40.025
Wasabi and then and to be honest, I don't even know how comfortable I am with that shitty one. So so I know. So it's important for people to realize that,
546
00:41:42.165 --> 00:41:44.984
that, like, the an onset degradation from CoinJoin,
547
00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:48.130
and and and so so so
548
00:41:48.510 --> 00:41:50.530
on chain privacy is directly linked
549
00:41:50.990 --> 00:41:53.410
to Lightning because you're funding with these UTXOs.
550
00:41:53.710 --> 00:41:57.035
And the Anand set of coin join, especially in
551
00:41:58.215 --> 00:42:01.595
Wasabi, because I just the implementation just isn't built
552
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:04.359
in a way that the Anand set is is
553
00:42:05.240 --> 00:42:12.275
so the Anand set degrades very quickly if people do things with their UTXOs afterwards that are bad for privacy.
554
00:42:13.135 --> 00:42:18.835
And the big thing, you know, the number one biggest thing is then they interact with KYC Services afterwards.
555
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:24.660
So the overwhelming majority of the non set is probably degraded through a combination of combining
556
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:25.780
UTXOs,
557
00:42:26.240 --> 00:42:28.020
people combining after the fact.
558
00:42:28.924 --> 00:42:30.545
They're clicking the select all button,
559
00:42:31.484 --> 00:42:35.905
or they're actually going, and they're they're sending it to a KYC service,
560
00:42:36.370 --> 00:42:37.030
or they're,
561
00:42:37.890 --> 00:42:38.710
buying something
562
00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:40.790
through a third party processor,
563
00:42:41.650 --> 00:42:43.830
someone like an OpenNode or a Bitrefill,
564
00:42:45.885 --> 00:42:49.505
or even worse, a BitPay or a Coinbase merchant service.
565
00:42:50.765 --> 00:42:51.245
If you
566
00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:56.099
when you do that, obviously, you're linking that UTXO
567
00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:00.900
to yourself, and as a result, you're degrading the onset of everyone else.
568
00:43:01.555 --> 00:43:03.335
And it degrades over time,
569
00:43:03.795 --> 00:43:07.335
and that ledgers forever. So if you have a UTXO sitting in there,
570
00:43:08.115 --> 00:43:09.735
sitting in your lightning node,
571
00:43:10.100 --> 00:43:15.720
your onset is degrading after the fact because of every other participant and what they're doing.
572
00:43:16.660 --> 00:43:21.404
And I know that's, like, a really headful of people to to to deal with.
573
00:43:21.865 --> 00:43:22.845
It's not ideal,
574
00:43:23.305 --> 00:43:32.420
but, it I think it's important that people shouldn't be discouraged necessarily from using these tools. I think some tools are better than others. I think I've been pretty clear on the show about it.
575
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:33.359
But,
576
00:43:34.640 --> 00:43:36.099
they should it's it's
577
00:43:36.425 --> 00:43:39.165
it's strictly better than not using those tools.
578
00:43:39.785 --> 00:43:44.740
If you just take, like, a Cash App UTXO and you fund your fucking lightning node with it,
579
00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:47.560
you're in a insanely worse position
580
00:43:47.860 --> 00:43:55.885
than if, you know, your nonsense degrading because a bunch of different databases scattered around the world all have different information on your participants,
581
00:43:56.985 --> 00:44:00.205
in that round. Right? This is like a this is a nuance
582
00:44:00.505 --> 00:44:05.520
that is hard to grasp, but it's it's important I I think it's important that people don't get discouraged,
583
00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:08.240
in that regard.
584
00:44:08.974 --> 00:44:09.635
Yeah. Exactly. And
585
00:44:10.015 --> 00:44:10.815
and that's why,
586
00:44:11.855 --> 00:44:12.355
when
587
00:44:12.815 --> 00:44:30.145
because the Lightning Network, especially if you wanna be, you know, reputational based node, and you wanna route, and you wanna keep channels open for as long as you can. It kinda goes against the fact that on, you know, some implementations, maybe it's all of them. I you know, this is where it kinda get fuzzy, but over time, your an onset is just gonna degrade.
588
00:44:30.525 --> 00:44:36.625
And over time, if you keep that channel open and you just keep it open forever, your an onset is just degrading. Right?
589
00:44:37.590 --> 00:44:43.450
So trying to trying to achieve that the best end on set you can, which, you know, maybe, you know, some people have
590
00:44:44.444 --> 00:44:47.585
preferences on different implementations. Won't get into that.
591
00:44:48.525 --> 00:44:53.750
But, yeah, I I think and and that's why I say to try to, if you can, try to use
592
00:44:54.370 --> 00:44:57.670
non mixed UTXOs because of this. Just So why?
593
00:44:58.450 --> 00:45:06.305
Swapped, you mean? Yeah. Oh, yeah. After you use a mix UTXO. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Mix UTXO. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Try to use other people's UTXOs,
594
00:45:07.655 --> 00:45:08.155
but
595
00:45:09.270 --> 00:45:10.810
not not don't use
596
00:45:11.110 --> 00:45:20.484
your original. Yeah. You're exactly right. If you get a UTXO from from Coinbase or whatever, definitely mix that. If but it's way better, but try to use other people's UTXOs.
597
00:45:21.025 --> 00:45:31.420
So I think we're once again, we're getting into the weeds really hard. We're losing people a little bit. I think so on sender side, we we agree they're using a Tor only node. You're funding it with as few
598
00:45:32.015 --> 00:45:32.755
transact UTXOs
599
00:45:33.055 --> 00:45:35.075
as possible, all post mix UTXOs,
600
00:45:36.494 --> 00:45:39.635
and you're cycling through the node. On the receiving side,
601
00:45:40.970 --> 00:45:45.390
I mean, I think best practice is to use, like, Moon Wallet on your phone with the VPN
602
00:45:45.769 --> 00:45:47.390
that cycles public keys,
603
00:45:47.690 --> 00:45:55.595
you know, doesn't doesn't doesn't tie them all to the same pub key, and then you could pay out to your solver node, and then you're just kind of custodial privacy trusting
604
00:45:56.135 --> 00:45:56.954
Moon Wallet.
605
00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:01.100
Would you would you agree on that premise, like, as just a simple actionable
606
00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:02.780
thing people can do?
607
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:04.940
Yeah. Absolutely. Moonwallet,
608
00:46:06.035 --> 00:46:06.935
m u u n.com.
609
00:46:07.555 --> 00:46:12.455
Oh, yeah. Thank you. It's probably one of the best for receiving just because of the fact that they do rotate.
610
00:46:13.710 --> 00:46:20.609
I I'm not sure if they rotate both public and channel ID, or or just one or the other. It's at least up key, I believe.
611
00:46:21.525 --> 00:46:25.785
But they do a good job rotating and having these sort of fake or virtual
612
00:46:26.325 --> 00:46:33.680
channel IDs or or or or private nodes behind them. So, yes, I 100% agree. It's unfortunate that that's the only
613
00:46:34.140 --> 00:46:37.839
implementation I know of where it it it goes through this healthy practice
614
00:46:38.525 --> 00:46:43.345
of rot rotating and and shielding the the actual the real destination.
615
00:46:44.685 --> 00:46:48.819
But I believe that that will change with time. I believe there'll be more implementations,
616
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:53.599
c lightning plug ins or or l and d interceptors that that try to,
617
00:46:54.570 --> 00:47:04.770
you know, rotate these public keys and channel IDs. Well, the other one I know is actually a good example of and and sitting on the screen on the lower left corner, the lnurlqr4,
618
00:47:07.310 --> 00:47:11.410
by ln the lntx bot, which does the exact same thing.
619
00:47:13.155 --> 00:47:13.555
But,
620
00:47:14.115 --> 00:47:17.575
it doesn't rotate on every invoice. It only rotates
621
00:47:17.954 --> 00:47:19.575
for every user. So, basically,
622
00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:24.079
it's a custody of node, but you have your own pop key,
623
00:47:24.619 --> 00:47:30.105
which is a virtual pop key with a virtual private channel connected to the n and t x bot node node.
624
00:47:31.685 --> 00:47:36.025
Right. And you have, like, a custodial privacy relationship as well on both regardless.
625
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:45.520
Yes. Where you're, like, trusting the operator to protect your privacy? The the Yeah. I'm looking forward to do to be able to do this,
626
00:47:45.965 --> 00:47:49.985
I mean, you know, not from the command line on on on my own node.
627
00:47:50.685 --> 00:47:51.185
But
628
00:47:51.485 --> 00:47:53.345
mind you, even in that case,
629
00:47:53.885 --> 00:47:59.960
the last hope will be always my note. Right? So Right. That that gives it away.
630
00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:01.880
Because you have a private channel,
631
00:48:02.500 --> 00:48:12.665
which obviously can be anywhere, but then the last hop will be always the node which is creating that virtual pub key. The the other thing that's just nice about mobile wallets in general
632
00:48:13.350 --> 00:48:13.850
is,
633
00:48:14.790 --> 00:48:19.130
if you use even if you use if you use a custodial wallet, you use, like, a wallet of Satoshi
634
00:48:19.590 --> 00:48:20.490
or a BlueWallet
635
00:48:21.435 --> 00:48:25.135
or or you don't use a custodial wallet, you use, like, a Breeze or a Phoenix.
636
00:48:25.675 --> 00:48:26.575
You can and
637
00:48:26.875 --> 00:48:29.295
you can use them to receive a couple transactions,
638
00:48:30.740 --> 00:48:40.984
then you empty it out to your own node, and then you wipe the app, and you start fresh again. And, you know, I I guess you use a VPN so that the service doesn't have your IP address.
639
00:48:42.165 --> 00:48:46.505
I don't think any of them I I Phoenix has Tor built in now, I think.
640
00:48:46.900 --> 00:48:47.400
Yes.
641
00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:52.440
Yeah. The the cool thing about the process you described is, say for instance,
642
00:48:52.819 --> 00:48:55.960
you're going from now that exchanges are implementing Lightning,
643
00:48:57.015 --> 00:49:01.035
if if you're going from an exchange into your custodial Wallet of Satoshi,
644
00:49:01.895 --> 00:49:03.755
Wallet of Satoshi doesn't know
645
00:49:04.590 --> 00:49:08.770
where those funds came from. Now your your exchange knows it's going to Wallet of Satoshi.
646
00:49:09.390 --> 00:49:17.735
Wallet of the Satoshi doesn't know where it came from. And now you go from Wald of Satoshi to your real node or or or, you know, your moon mod or whatever,
647
00:49:18.275 --> 00:49:21.500
that at least does a good pretty good job of wiping
648
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:27.579
that history of okay. You're you're no longer associated with that exchange that you're withdrawing from.
649
00:49:28.355 --> 00:49:33.174
And but now the problem here is that you just have so much complexity that you're just adding into your processes
650
00:49:33.635 --> 00:49:36.934
that, like, most people are just gonna fuck something up along the way.
651
00:49:37.290 --> 00:49:52.805
Right? And which is why, like, our goal should not be this even though this is, like, our practical advice today. Right? Yes. It's a code of hack. Yeah. It is a hack. It's, but but at least the Exchange doesn't know what your real note is, and they don't know
652
00:49:53.210 --> 00:49:54.109
any of the UTXO's
653
00:49:54.410 --> 00:49:55.390
funding your channels
654
00:49:56.009 --> 00:49:58.589
or any of the you know, if you're an IP node.
655
00:49:58.970 --> 00:50:00.589
They don't know what your IP address
656
00:50:01.075 --> 00:50:09.150
or any of those things. So I think it it sucks, but, I mean, that's what I do. I always send a wall to the Toshiba and then send them real node.
657
00:50:09.870 --> 00:50:14.930
I I don't think those steps are too complicated to think about, but you do have custodial risk,
658
00:50:15.230 --> 00:50:16.450
not only on exchange.
659
00:50:19.235 --> 00:50:31.620
If you're going from an exchange, but also you're trusting Wallace Satoshi to not run away, which has done a good job of not running away. But more importantly, I think the custodial nodes are all gonna get the custodial wallets are all gonna get whacked by the the regulators.
660
00:50:32.160 --> 00:50:34.500
Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Yep. This is why we don't have custodial's
661
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:35.345
wallets
662
00:50:37.265 --> 00:50:38.325
in the first place.
663
00:50:40.385 --> 00:50:40.885
Yep.
664
00:50:41.905 --> 00:50:47.750
So, yes, the the other thing I was, like, you're gonna speak about on on c. Especially I think to
665
00:50:48.130 --> 00:50:55.095
to try to well, this will be like an advanced use case, but if you are running like a large node and you're trying to do this do it professionally,
666
00:50:55.475 --> 00:51:01.895
you might you probably want to manage the on chain funds in a separate wallet, not in the wallet of the lightning
667
00:51:02.390 --> 00:51:06.329
implementation, let it be l and d or c lightning or or whichever you are using.
668
00:51:06.789 --> 00:51:07.289
And,
669
00:51:08.309 --> 00:51:09.289
I mean, I found,
670
00:51:10.475 --> 00:51:11.535
like joint markets,
671
00:51:12.235 --> 00:51:15.135
you know, be as complicated to use as it is,
672
00:51:15.755 --> 00:51:17.535
although we try to make it easier,
673
00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:20.800
But it is a very good fit to kind
674
00:51:21.100 --> 00:51:21.760
of fund
675
00:51:22.140 --> 00:51:26.400
lightning channels because you have a set of different UTXOs, not only,
676
00:51:26.744 --> 00:51:28.045
you know, 15,500,000,
677
00:51:28.665 --> 00:51:40.820
but you have you have all kinds of UTXOs if you are if you are running as a maker. And then you can when you close a channel, especially if you do it from the command line, there might be like RTLs on the hub, you know, these
678
00:51:41.345 --> 00:51:44.245
graphical interfaces implementing that as well that when you
679
00:51:45.025 --> 00:51:49.365
are closing the channel, you can give an external address where the
680
00:51:51.140 --> 00:51:52.839
funds are going to directly
681
00:51:53.460 --> 00:52:00.005
without you needing to wait for it to be confirmed in your on chain wallet and then sending in another step. So you could just,
682
00:52:00.785 --> 00:52:01.444
you know,
683
00:52:02.545 --> 00:52:03.845
close it into,
684
00:52:05.025 --> 00:52:08.005
your drone market but even even your samurai wallet
685
00:52:09.010 --> 00:52:09.510
address,
686
00:52:10.050 --> 00:52:11.270
and then, you know,
687
00:52:11.890 --> 00:52:13.030
go through the mix again.
688
00:52:13.970 --> 00:52:17.350
Right. And then when you're funding again, you you you can come from outside.
689
00:52:17.915 --> 00:52:18.815
They are easier
690
00:52:20.555 --> 00:52:23.775
the tools get are getting easier to be used. I mean, all,
691
00:52:24.795 --> 00:52:26.255
implementations now now
692
00:52:26.790 --> 00:52:27.530
support PSBT.
693
00:52:28.150 --> 00:52:31.610
I think Zeus, even Caludis, you know, is working on
694
00:52:32.950 --> 00:52:35.130
building external funding with PSBTs
695
00:52:35.965 --> 00:52:36.465
into
696
00:52:36.925 --> 00:52:38.065
the Zeus wallet.
697
00:52:38.605 --> 00:53:00.635
So, you know, I look forward to that one. And, hopefully, it will be coming to some, you know, more graphical interface as well. Notorious guest of the of the podcast Absolutely. Evan Kaludis. No lightning, discussion should go without, you know, giving a shout out to him. You either have with all the lightning discussions on this on this show have either had open arms in it or or.
698
00:53:01.255 --> 00:53:01.755
The
699
00:53:05.080 --> 00:53:05.580
yeah.
700
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.300
Those are those are those are all very good points.
701
00:53:11.160 --> 00:53:12.060
I I
702
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:13.100
I I
703
00:53:14.035 --> 00:53:18.055
I it's important for people to realize that this stuff is all very early.
704
00:53:18.915 --> 00:53:19.735
And really,
705
00:53:20.275 --> 00:53:20.775
ultimately,
706
00:53:21.075 --> 00:53:27.530
if you really care about privacy and you wanna be the most private user, like, you just should not be running a routing node yet.
707
00:53:27.830 --> 00:53:28.570
But, unfortunately,
708
00:53:30.295 --> 00:53:36.075
you know, I think it's a balancing act. And, I mean, if you're a real private user, you shouldn't be,
709
00:53:36.510 --> 00:53:42.610
you know, having twice weekly live shows, but I'm doing that as well. And I I it's important, I think, that we have
710
00:53:44.435 --> 00:53:47.415
sovereign Bitcoiners out there that are that are, you
711
00:53:47.755 --> 00:53:48.255
know,
712
00:53:48.595 --> 00:53:53.230
basically on the front lines because because we we need it and we need it if if
713
00:53:54.109 --> 00:53:56.130
if if if when fees rise,
714
00:53:56.510 --> 00:54:00.690
you know, we're gonna need these sovereign nodes. We can't have all the nodes be,
715
00:54:02.125 --> 00:54:03.665
completely docs corporations
716
00:54:04.045 --> 00:54:05.585
that are that are regulated.
717
00:54:05.885 --> 00:54:08.065
Yeah. We need to need to build the roads.
718
00:54:09.099 --> 00:54:11.280
Yeah. Exactly. Someone has to build the roads.
719
00:54:12.220 --> 00:54:16.960
Luckily, the good thing is that we can always every node can, you know, spin up a new,
720
00:54:17.455 --> 00:54:31.730
you know, if there's a popular path that's, you know, being really shitty, if there's a popular hub that's being really shitty, we can always go around them. We don't have to route through them anymore. We can close off our channels with them, etcetera. So it's almost it's it's a distributed it's not, like, completely decentralized
721
00:54:32.110 --> 00:54:41.905
in the way that, like, it it there there are kinda hubs, but at any point in time, it's more distributed. At any point in time, anyone can build their own roads and have their own little payment network,
722
00:54:42.380 --> 00:54:47.520
and things like that. So And we we we're not relying on them so much. It's a good decision. Note,
723
00:54:48.300 --> 00:54:54.605
I think we should talk about this rings of fire initiative. Are you guys familiar with this? It's the the Telegram group?
724
00:54:55.385 --> 00:54:58.125
The Telegram it's bigger than a group. I think it's a lifestyle.
725
00:55:00.609 --> 00:55:04.950
I've heard of it. I'm a part of a telecom group where people do open channels
726
00:55:05.330 --> 00:55:06.869
to each other. Talk about this?
727
00:55:09.065 --> 00:55:11.885
Well, I mean, you started. Please go on.
728
00:55:12.425 --> 00:55:14.125
So the ring of fire is,
729
00:55:14.905 --> 00:55:15.725
this idea
730
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:18.579
that we have this Telegram group of
731
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.700
sovereign Bitcoiners and a couple spooks, most likely,
732
00:55:22.720 --> 00:55:24.339
who are we're collaborating
733
00:55:25.545 --> 00:55:26.444
via Telegram,
734
00:55:26.744 --> 00:55:28.444
and we're creating these rings.
735
00:55:29.145 --> 00:55:30.444
So, like, it's it's,
736
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:39.780
let's say, you wanna do a 5000000 sat ring. Everyone in the ring, you have 10 people, they each open a 5000000 sat channel,
737
00:55:40.295 --> 00:55:45.194
to the next person in the ring. So it's it creates a liquidity ring between the 10 people,
738
00:55:45.815 --> 00:55:46.474
and then,
739
00:55:47.095 --> 00:56:01.424
you do a circular rebalance. So all of a sudden, everyone has if it's 5,000,000 ring, 5,000,000 sat ring, all of a sudden, everyone has 2 and a half 1000000 SATs inbound from both their partners and 2 and 2 2 and a half 1000000 SaaS outbound from both their partners.
740
00:56:02.204 --> 00:56:04.785
And and you basically create this very robust,
741
00:56:05.484 --> 00:56:09.819
liquidity network. And by having channel having rings of all different sizes
742
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:11.180
and having participants
743
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:16.615
being in multiple rings, then you have links between the rings themselves,
744
00:56:17.235 --> 00:56:18.295
and you create,
745
00:56:20.115 --> 00:56:24.360
basically, the opposite of the FUD narrative of lightning that a hub and spoke.
746
00:56:24.660 --> 00:56:27.320
Right? You're, like, creating a a more dynamic
747
00:56:27.620 --> 00:56:28.360
kind of,
748
00:56:29.140 --> 00:56:31.400
web of sovereign lightning nodes.
749
00:56:33.025 --> 00:56:36.805
Yeah. That's that's very good. Very good very good thing to do. It's always,
750
00:56:37.825 --> 00:56:39.365
it's a recommendation. I mean,
751
00:56:40.385 --> 00:56:40.885
probably,
752
00:56:42.210 --> 00:56:48.850
especially in the beginning, you know, the it was a practice that people were kind of advertising that you can, if you open an
753
00:56:49.455 --> 00:56:52.435
to open a channel to me and I open back one to you. Right?
754
00:56:52.975 --> 00:56:53.475
And,
755
00:56:54.255 --> 00:57:00.700
actually, it is much more beneficial if I open a channel to you than you open a channel to someone else
756
00:57:01.080 --> 00:57:05.295
so the funds can flow and they are not just in a loop. And exactly what
757
00:57:06.255 --> 00:57:10.434
happens in the string of fire on the edit kind of,
758
00:57:10.734 --> 00:57:13.635
you know, fantastic thing that they can just do, build
759
00:57:14.220 --> 00:57:15.279
build a route
760
00:57:15.579 --> 00:57:16.380
with these,
761
00:57:17.019 --> 00:57:21.760
bash scripts, basically. There are a couple of tools available where you just need to
762
00:57:22.184 --> 00:57:24.525
basically put the private keys after each the
763
00:57:25.385 --> 00:57:25.885
the
764
00:57:26.424 --> 00:57:27.164
pop keys
765
00:57:28.505 --> 00:57:32.630
after each other, and it does construct a route which you can put into
766
00:57:33.010 --> 00:57:34.150
the lightning
767
00:57:34.609 --> 00:57:37.830
command line, and then it will do the circular circular
768
00:57:38.369 --> 00:57:39.589
rebalancing. So
769
00:57:40.035 --> 00:57:46.695
it just, pays forward back to the originator node through this ring, and that's how it's it's getting balanced.
770
00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:51.020
Obviously, everyone needs to cooperate, needs to be online.
771
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:54.220
And then it also suggested order is, like,
772
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.145
kind of an ethical limit to have your fees reduced to a level
773
00:57:58.685 --> 00:58:02.545
so you're not, taxing too much the one who is Yeah. I don't believe in the fees part.
774
00:58:03.245 --> 00:58:06.385
That's just bullshit. That's never gonna last. That that
775
00:58:06.990 --> 00:58:20.025
that that's not the adversarial environment that I'm that I've that I've been to be going. Yeah. It's it's a it needs coordination. Right? So, I mean, yeah, people should be online, so that's kind of a a you know, you you shouldn't open public channels if you're not
776
00:58:20.405 --> 00:58:22.585
not planning to be online. But,
777
00:58:23.090 --> 00:58:27.510
yeah, in terms of fees, yes. I mean, you know, you shouldn't come in and kind of trying to,
778
00:58:28.770 --> 00:58:29.670
you know, text
779
00:58:30.525 --> 00:58:33.585
or or people who are trying to kind of balance the channels through
780
00:58:33.885 --> 00:58:38.545
when the agreement was that you're coming in for this. But otherwise Yeah. But I mean
781
00:58:38.890 --> 00:58:43.550
but I mean, Lightning has it built in. Right? Like, if if if you raise your fees obnoxiously,
782
00:58:45.530 --> 00:58:57.625
I mean, if if it's publicly connected to you, they'll shame you on Twitter. But if if it's not publicly connected to you, it's built into lightning, people just won't route through you. Right? They'll go other places. And the the the whole cool part of rings of fire to me
783
00:58:58.180 --> 00:59:05.240
is that it means that any given channel that you have, you're not, you know, completely attached to. And this was an issue I had,
784
00:59:05.735 --> 00:59:08.555
with the stacking stats node was because I saw
785
00:59:09.335 --> 00:59:10.395
I had good intentions,
786
00:59:11.255 --> 00:59:17.560
and very much like Anthony, like, I like to learn just and, like, open arms and, like, a lot of the freaks to be quite honest.
787
00:59:18.180 --> 00:59:19.560
I like to learn by doing,
788
00:59:20.180 --> 00:59:28.815
and I did that reciprocal approach. If you open to me, I'll open to you. And what that did was, first of all, if you have multiple channels open with a part partner,
789
00:59:29.675 --> 00:59:35.240
it hurts the routing. It it creates routing errors very easily. So it's better to just have one channel that's balanced.
790
00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:40.599
And then second of all, it made us a sing it made my note a single point of failure.
791
00:59:41.825 --> 00:59:44.645
And also my note was this little not a low
792
00:59:45.025 --> 00:59:45.905
g, and it,
793
00:59:46.545 --> 00:59:48.085
you know, this little rock 64,
794
00:59:48.600 --> 00:59:55.100
and it just kept dying. Like, it it was just it was cutting out all the time because it was running through Tor only, and it had way too many channels.
795
00:59:56.815 --> 01:00:00.995
And then just we just I just ended up in a situation where I had to clean it all up,
796
01:00:01.455 --> 01:00:07.220
and it caused a huge fee burden for everyone involved, but especially me, and I lost a bunch of money on it.
797
01:00:07.600 --> 01:00:10.020
But the cool thing about Rings of Fire, I think,
798
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.700
is, like, you do it you do a couple of them. You do a couple rings,
799
01:00:14.515 --> 01:00:24.819
and then all of a sudden, you're just you're, you know, you're connected to so many different liquidity routes. You're you're not you're not necessarily reliant on a single person who can raise their fees.
800
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:28.900
Well, I mean, that's another issue. Right? I could have just raised my fees at will,
801
01:00:30.125 --> 01:00:32.145
which I didn't do, but I could have,
802
01:00:33.244 --> 01:00:36.625
and and and rings of fire kind of reduces that
803
01:00:37.640 --> 01:00:45.900
dependency. I but I do push back on this idea. Like, every time I join a rings of fire group, they're like, don't raise your fees. I'm like, guys, like, no one's gonna remember your
804
01:00:46.205 --> 01:00:55.745
Telegram message saying not to raise your fees in, like, 4 years when this channel is still open. You just have to assume that people are gonna raise and lower their fees, and and routing will work as designed.
805
01:00:56.910 --> 01:01:08.765
Yeah. I think it's cool in terms of, like, keeping people accountable or at least trying to keep people accountable in the early days of of the Ring of Fire. Like you said, in 4 years, you know, who who knows? But I think another aspect that's really cool is
806
01:01:09.145 --> 01:01:10.204
the idea of,
807
01:01:11.944 --> 01:01:16.630
cooperating with the peers to to to build a more resilient network.
808
01:01:17.250 --> 01:01:19.510
Because right now, you know, how does
809
01:01:20.290 --> 01:01:22.630
a new node coming online right now,
810
01:01:24.035 --> 01:01:24.835
Where does it
811
01:01:26.035 --> 01:01:35.119
who does it connect to? I mean, like, okay. Well, I'll look on 1 ML and I'll go to I'll well, everyone's connected to the async. It's number 1 node. Let me connect there.
812
01:01:35.819 --> 01:01:41.105
And we self I think it's something that human nature does anyways, but we self centralized in a way,
813
01:01:41.825 --> 01:02:03.045
and we create these single points of failure naturally. But if we have a sort of coordinator to help build it, I almost look at the ring of fire like like a like a, I don't know, like a carbon fiber net that is just super strong and we're all building on each other and we're all self organizing to have the best routes. Not everyone is connecting to Fold just because they like Fold and they're doing really cool stuff.
814
01:02:03.569 --> 01:02:08.790
You have some people connect to the phone and maybe you coordinate and say, okay. Cool. We'll have some connections out to,
815
01:02:09.490 --> 01:02:18.935
you know, async or or other places. So I I'd love the idea of of the Lightning Network kinda trying to self organize in a way and not just trend towards,
816
01:02:19.475 --> 01:02:19.975
centralization
817
01:02:20.355 --> 01:02:22.930
and and hub and spokes. I mean, I
818
01:02:23.470 --> 01:02:25.170
think look. Like, there's
819
01:02:25.630 --> 01:02:27.330
one of the cool things about Bitcoin
820
01:02:27.790 --> 01:02:29.150
is to me, it's it's
821
01:02:30.335 --> 01:02:34.515
so so with Lightning, there's a bit of a tragedy of a of the commons
822
01:02:34.975 --> 01:02:35.475
concern.
823
01:02:36.975 --> 01:02:37.475
And
824
01:02:38.349 --> 01:02:42.210
and that's a trade off that was made to basically get us faster,
825
01:02:43.790 --> 01:02:44.849
cheaper transactions.
826
01:02:46.855 --> 01:02:48.795
And that's fine. It's more centralized
827
01:02:49.255 --> 01:02:51.515
than you know, unless censorship resistant
828
01:02:52.055 --> 01:03:02.080
than on chain because it makes those different trade offs because it sits on top of the Bitcoin main chain. But the Bitcoin main chain is super cool to me because it's almost reverse tragedy to the commons.
829
01:03:02.780 --> 01:03:03.600
It's like,
830
01:03:04.140 --> 01:03:04.540
you've,
831
01:03:05.625 --> 01:03:14.365
like, optimist of the the commons. Like, it's good for the it's like every if you're greedy, it's good for everyone because transaction fees are just designed in a way,
832
01:03:15.349 --> 01:03:17.930
that that means that you you can't, you know,
833
01:03:20.390 --> 01:03:22.170
like like, by acting greedy,
834
01:03:22.895 --> 01:03:26.675
you're you're a good participant in the network. But with Lightning,
835
01:03:26.975 --> 01:03:33.540
the natural progression is the cheapest thing an individual can do, the most private thing an individual can do
836
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:34.740
is simply
837
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:43.755
open you know, I have a Tor only lightning node and open 1 or 2 channels to the most connected nodes, period, with the lowest fees, period.
838
01:03:44.410 --> 01:03:46.330
And, you know, that that could be,
839
01:03:48.010 --> 01:03:52.670
that that could be like an async or a regulated company, or that could be
840
01:03:54.845 --> 01:03:59.585
who's that guy who has, I got I just got a loss who has, like, 40% of the network.
841
01:04:00.420 --> 01:04:08.600
And a l n big? L n big. L n big. It could be like an l n big, and that is the cheapest and most private way that you can interact with lightning.
842
01:04:08.924 --> 01:04:10.305
So we kind of need
843
01:04:11.005 --> 01:04:17.990
this push. We need these these these sovereign Bitcoiners that are willing to go out of their way, risk a little bit more of their privacy,
844
01:04:18.370 --> 01:04:19.590
risk a little bit,
845
01:04:20.690 --> 01:04:21.350
more money
846
01:04:21.730 --> 01:04:22.470
at stake
847
01:04:22.770 --> 01:04:29.815
to try and build this network because they understand that, you know, low time preference long term, it's better for all of us
848
01:04:30.355 --> 01:04:33.335
if if we have a more robust lightning network. Right?
849
01:04:34.310 --> 01:04:34.810
Exactly.
850
01:04:35.430 --> 01:04:41.725
It is so there've been a couple of questions about, like, how many people are in a ring. It's up up to 10 as I as I,
851
01:04:42.445 --> 01:04:43.905
gathered so far. And also
852
01:04:44.845 --> 01:04:46.785
about a fee thing. So it it
853
01:04:47.085 --> 01:04:52.640
is just supposed to be reused for the time of that circular labyrinth, that that one time circular rebalance.
854
01:04:53.020 --> 01:04:55.580
I mean, after that, you know, obviously, no one could
855
01:04:56.435 --> 01:05:00.295
Oh, okay. That makes sense. To ask you. Right? Because just just to shift the liquidity
856
01:05:00.675 --> 01:05:07.630
because in that case, you know, if there are t 10 people, there is there are 10 channels to pay through. And if, you know, everyone takes their, you know, 0.1%
857
01:05:08.089 --> 01:05:11.309
or whatever, then it can get to a significant level.
858
01:05:11.769 --> 01:05:15.935
And so the other thing is that again, there is a trade off of like
859
01:05:16.315 --> 01:05:25.540
I think the these this exists certainly in the Telegram and then also net Reddit. I mean, both are like in in a kind of KYC light chat apps. Right? So,
860
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:30.905
the best thing is I mean, we spoke about how bad it is to kind of tie your
861
01:05:33.045 --> 01:05:34.025
node to
862
01:05:34.645 --> 01:05:36.185
your phone number basically.
863
01:05:37.845 --> 01:05:39.545
So you might want to set up
864
01:05:40.110 --> 01:05:41.970
just a an kind of inon
865
01:05:43.070 --> 01:05:43.570
identity,
866
01:05:44.270 --> 01:05:48.290
or like pseudonym to be exact and just, you know, open up like
867
01:05:51.615 --> 01:05:59.400
you know, tails and register a a burner number and go on Telegram and and have these channels and then leave that as a point of contact for the note.
868
01:05:59.780 --> 01:06:00.680
And just,
869
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:01.780
maybe
870
01:06:02.740 --> 01:06:08.025
if you register 1 ml, put a put an email address on there. So if people have trouble
871
01:06:08.405 --> 01:06:10.265
and you want to be a good player
872
01:06:10.565 --> 01:06:11.944
and you might need it yourself,
873
01:06:12.724 --> 01:06:14.265
they can contact you. Right?
874
01:06:16.099 --> 01:06:18.440
Because there could be technical issues still
875
01:06:18.819 --> 01:06:24.760
or people are doing, you know, making mistakes or losing their general states completely and and stuff like that.
876
01:06:26.085 --> 01:06:29.145
When, you know, they would it would be it is really good to have
877
01:06:29.525 --> 01:06:31.545
a point of contact like that. And
878
01:06:31.980 --> 01:06:39.279
on the other hand, from your point of view, it is really good to know or to be able to contact your peers. So,
879
01:06:39.685 --> 01:06:44.744
I mean, you know, it's okay for example with Async, you probably could contact them, but if you go to
880
01:06:46.950 --> 01:06:48.170
like a a large
881
01:06:48.550 --> 01:06:50.410
node who is completely,
882
01:06:50.950 --> 01:06:53.210
you know, nameless and there is no
883
01:06:54.154 --> 01:06:59.615
way to to go to them if you have a problem or funds locked up most importantly,
884
01:07:00.075 --> 01:07:00.555
then,
885
01:07:01.035 --> 01:07:03.055
you know, it it it's it's not the best.
886
01:07:04.950 --> 01:07:09.530
One of the things that I think is pretty cool though on on that specific topic is that I,
887
01:07:09.990 --> 01:07:13.895
I've tried this before. I haven't I haven't gotten a response yet, but I've used,
888
01:07:15.655 --> 01:07:17.435
Thunderhub to try to message,
889
01:07:18.215 --> 01:07:21.675
other nodes. We have keysend. Other nodes on the network. Yeah. Through keysend,
890
01:07:22.560 --> 01:07:25.780
because that's all you really need. You you just need their node identity.
891
01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:29.525
You don't need an email address or anything to technically talk to them
892
01:07:29.845 --> 01:07:36.184
through Keysight, but I never gotten a response back from them. But that's what the the the more mainstream,
893
01:07:37.230 --> 01:07:39.470
even though it's an incredibly niche product, but,
894
01:07:40.110 --> 01:07:45.810
we already have over 200 freaks in the tribe, is Sphinx, which uses Keysend to communicate.
895
01:07:46.905 --> 01:07:58.220
Well, but I I have I have a note set up just for that. It has, like, one channel and it's, like, following the best practices I I was describing here. But that's the problem again. Right? It's an exact social media account. Right? So I cannot,
896
01:07:58.900 --> 01:08:03.760
I cannot Right. So do I tie right into it. I have a dedicated sphinx node.
897
01:08:04.905 --> 01:08:05.405
OpenNoms.
898
01:08:05.705 --> 01:08:15.340
I saw I mentioned in the article, but I saw there is a ticket to possibly add a second node to RaspiBlitz. Is is that something that you're actively working on? Where where is that at?
899
01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:22.220
Well, I mean, at the moment, I'm working on adding c lightning. Right? So and that would that would be that would
900
01:08:22.875 --> 01:08:24.494
so it would be possible to
901
01:08:24.955 --> 01:08:25.855
run alongside.
902
01:08:26.315 --> 01:08:27.855
And also, I just
903
01:08:28.315 --> 01:08:31.455
didn't make it worse today that you can even parallel
904
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:36.340
on my Raspberry Pi on with 4 gigabytes of RAM, I was able to run
905
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:45.105
Bitcoin mainnet, test that, and sign that at the same time and then have, like, LND and and c lightning on those. So so, you know, it's, technically, it's it's
906
01:08:45.645 --> 01:08:46.385
time impossible.
907
01:08:47.245 --> 01:08:51.090
I mean, the UX part is tricky because then how do you,
908
01:08:51.550 --> 01:08:54.449
you know, how do you know which node you are interacting with?
909
01:08:55.230 --> 01:09:00.155
It works for me in the command line, and it does work now, you know, fairly
910
01:09:00.615 --> 01:09:04.715
well. I've done a, like, a little menu in with that script, which is, in that
911
01:09:06.380 --> 01:09:07.920
issue, in addressable issue.
912
01:09:09.420 --> 01:09:09.920
So
913
01:09:10.860 --> 01:09:11.600
you can
914
01:09:12.460 --> 01:09:13.120
do it
915
01:09:13.455 --> 01:09:16.035
but then obviously you need to look after it. Right? So
916
01:09:16.574 --> 01:09:20.195
because there will be the channel backups you need to save, there will be
917
01:09:21.550 --> 01:09:28.690
the passwords, which would be different. So there's a couple of things you you would need to look after. So it's kind of I left this
918
01:09:28.990 --> 01:09:30.210
as a working
919
01:09:31.175 --> 01:09:32.315
advanced option.
920
01:09:33.735 --> 01:09:38.235
So it's basically it's there. If you want to use it, you can try it. But,
921
01:09:40.130 --> 01:09:42.050
yeah, I I I don't see it I mean
922
01:09:42.610 --> 01:09:53.385
having a menu. Right? And, and, or having, like, a further implementation to the menu system and, like, having a graphical interface and things like that. The clean UX way to handle it, right, is is to just
923
01:09:54.005 --> 01:09:55.545
run multiple separate nodes.
924
01:09:56.340 --> 01:09:58.520
Yeah. Well, I have the 2 rabbit plates.
925
01:09:59.700 --> 01:10:00.200
Exactly.
926
01:10:02.100 --> 01:10:05.880
And, also, yeah, they're a question of torque circuits and stuff like that, but, also,
927
01:10:06.645 --> 01:10:09.065
that's another thing. If you have, like, a separate
928
01:10:09.525 --> 01:10:12.585
nodes but in the same physical place, you know, the
929
01:10:13.330 --> 01:10:25.325
Internet cuts out, and they are done at the same time. And they're Or if, like, Texas loses power, and and all the Texas nodes all go offline at the same time. Yeah. Speaking about, like, your house. Right? Not Texas.
930
01:10:25.785 --> 01:10:30.925
Yeah. So it's very obvious then. But But I was thinking about this the other day, like, if a hurricane hits,
931
01:10:31.320 --> 01:10:33.980
you know, like, a hurricane hits Florida or something,
932
01:10:34.680 --> 01:10:35.980
It should be able to migrate.
933
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:46.365
Right. But all the Florida nodes are gonna go down around the same time, or, like, if a if a region loses power, like, all those nodes are gonna go down at the same time even if you're going through Tor and you're protecting your IP address.
934
01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:50.540
Yeah. The the yeah. They will be dogs, but they would have a, you know,
935
01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:54.140
still a good anonymity set with a large area like that.
936
01:10:55.515 --> 01:11:00.575
That's a good point. Never consider that. Yeah. And my my note definitely went down during those Texas,
937
01:11:01.355 --> 01:11:02.975
Texas things. I had a UPS,
938
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:05.260
power supply, but it it
939
01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:11.100
it didn't last long enough through all the rolling blackouts. So, eventually, my Raspi Blitch just
940
01:11:11.925 --> 01:11:19.365
turned off, and and it shut off terribly, and I actually had to restore it, which is another thing I love about Raspi Blitts is that,
941
01:11:20.020 --> 01:11:23.560
every time you upgrade, you basically wipe the device. Right? So it kind of,
942
01:11:24.260 --> 01:11:39.370
you know, teaches you, or at least it it has this, like, built in process where you can feel comfortable knowing you can wipe the device. And as long as you still have that hard drive, you're you're good to go. And as long as you have those even if something happened to that, those static backup channels
943
01:11:39.910 --> 01:11:44.490
are are key. So, I had like, those Texas storms built a lot of confidence
944
01:11:44.805 --> 01:11:47.785
in me for, harassment because of that.
945
01:11:48.245 --> 01:11:50.665
Shout out shout out to, tjp3
946
01:11:51.285 --> 01:11:52.105
in the comments.
947
01:11:52.950 --> 01:11:59.770
He encapsulated what I was going for for on chain Bitcoin is the prosperity of the commons. It feels like a reverse tragedy of the commons.
948
01:12:01.135 --> 01:12:04.095
But, yeah, I was thinking about the power outages. Like, that's,
949
01:12:05.135 --> 01:12:13.429
I mean, this is the thing about, like, privacy and adversarial thinking and stuff. Like, if you go down far enough down the rabbit hole, you end up in, like, a really depressed
950
01:12:15.585 --> 01:12:19.445
area where you just you you just you just think we're fucked.
951
01:12:19.905 --> 01:12:25.980
And I think it's important for people to, you know, have good vibes on Bitcoin Tuesday. Like, we have to be optimistic here.
952
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:28.780
It'll be a fight, and
953
01:12:29.295 --> 01:12:42.670
and sovereignty is never gonna be easy, and personal responsibility is never gonna be easy. But someone has to do it, and I want that to be us. I don't want that to be someone else. I I think we're the ones who have to do it. So here we are. We need to build the roads, man.
954
01:12:43.050 --> 01:12:44.349
We need to build the roads.
955
01:12:45.715 --> 01:12:55.370
Dude, I just wanna say to both of you guys, just it's it's it's really fucking awesome that episode 21, Cielo Dispatch 21 is with 2 ride or die freaks,
956
01:12:55.850 --> 01:12:59.550
who you guys have both been here from the beginning, for civil dispatch.
957
01:13:01.210 --> 01:13:06.324
And it it it really I I know it started it started last year. It's it's been
958
01:13:06.625 --> 01:13:08.565
it's it's been 2 years now. No.
959
01:13:09.025 --> 01:13:11.685
It's just it's it it started as just
960
01:13:12.460 --> 01:13:14.320
something that, you know, like,
961
01:13:14.780 --> 01:13:19.520
I I I I was either gonna disappear or I was gonna start something new,
962
01:13:20.495 --> 01:13:26.675
and I decided to lean in. And you guys have been there the whole way, so it's just it's just great that you guys are both
963
01:13:27.889 --> 01:13:34.310
on here for for episode 21. So cheers to that. Well, props to you, man. You know, it's a fantastic initiative.
964
01:13:35.385 --> 01:13:41.485
Yeah. No. I love it. The best part of the week, honestly. So, it's an honor to be be on here and and talking about privacy.
965
01:13:41.864 --> 01:13:44.830
Fuck. Yeah. Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. Hell yeah.
966
01:13:45.770 --> 01:13:47.230
So I have a question.
967
01:13:47.690 --> 01:13:49.310
Key send versus l n URL.
968
01:13:50.650 --> 01:13:52.910
So the dispatch is a perfect example.
969
01:13:53.535 --> 01:13:59.315
It's a show that has no sponsors except for the audience. The audience is the sponsor of the show.
970
01:14:00.740 --> 01:14:03.560
It could work with either key send or lnurl.
971
01:14:04.820 --> 01:14:09.960
Why do I have lnurl in my bottom left hand corner instead of a key send URL?
972
01:14:11.765 --> 01:14:13.305
A key send QR code.
973
01:14:14.085 --> 01:14:16.025
But it would be just your pop key then.
974
01:14:16.885 --> 01:14:17.385
Yeah.
975
01:14:17.685 --> 01:14:20.550
Should we talk about let's talk about the trade offs, Open Arms.
976
01:14:23.429 --> 01:14:25.050
The trade offs for lnurl?
977
01:14:26.070 --> 01:14:27.925
Well Yep. It has Why?
978
01:14:28.485 --> 01:14:41.320
Is there any reason to use key send when ln URL exists is my question. So ln URL needs a server side. Right? So it does what what what it does, it's it's it is as in in the name, it is a URL, which is like an Internet address.
979
01:14:41.860 --> 01:14:45.239
So it pings a server when you connect to it to
980
01:14:45.955 --> 01:14:51.735
ask for the invoice which you then pay. It's that's like all in Europe pay in a very very simplified way.
981
01:14:53.315 --> 01:14:53.815
So
982
01:14:54.870 --> 01:14:58.330
it's and that needs to be a publicly accessible endpoint.
983
01:14:58.870 --> 01:15:02.330
So, you know, not everyone has that and you it cannot be just store only.
984
01:15:05.065 --> 01:15:11.405
And it's a trade off for usability because, yeah, it's just very easy to kind of, you know, click and click and pay,
985
01:15:12.185 --> 01:15:12.685
versus
986
01:15:13.540 --> 01:15:15.480
with key sent. I mean,
987
01:15:16.420 --> 01:15:17.320
that is something
988
01:15:19.060 --> 01:15:20.200
again, then you are
989
01:15:20.594 --> 01:15:23.175
sharing your pop key. So that's that is,
990
01:15:24.114 --> 01:15:27.735
I mean, you're sharing the pop key in the invoice which allows you to provide anyway
991
01:15:28.210 --> 01:15:29.750
if you are using your own node,
992
01:15:30.850 --> 01:15:31.350
but
993
01:15:32.370 --> 01:15:46.940
so the information is quite similar with with with a with a pop key as well. I mean, you could put it up and see, you know, how many people would key send to it. I think it's just the the support is not that not that out of the box. So Alenura has better better support because,
994
01:15:47.639 --> 01:15:51.579
you know, people work on it more, and it's it's a quite fun protocol,
995
01:15:52.195 --> 01:15:55.735
especially things like Eleanor of Oath, then you can, you know, verify
996
01:15:56.275 --> 01:16:00.055
your verify an identity without exposing the pub key in that case.
997
01:16:01.140 --> 01:16:02.360
So there are a couple of
998
01:16:04.100 --> 01:16:05.239
other parts of this
999
01:16:05.540 --> 01:16:10.525
Ellen Europe protocol which are which are quite interesting. But I think in the long term, they will probably be,
1000
01:16:12.665 --> 01:16:14.284
replaced by things
1001
01:16:14.824 --> 01:16:16.364
within the lightning protocol.
1002
01:16:18.320 --> 01:16:22.020
Yeah. The the cool thing about Allen URL, I think you described it earlier, openNoms,
1003
01:16:22.400 --> 01:16:22.900
with,
1004
01:16:24.080 --> 01:16:26.260
Allen TX bot, they actually
1005
01:16:26.795 --> 01:16:28.415
do try to shield
1006
01:16:29.115 --> 01:16:35.695
your the destination pub key a little bit by by doing that kind of fake fake private channel, fake public key, at least per user.
1007
01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:38.920
The the thing with that is,
1008
01:16:40.440 --> 01:16:42.700
I I kinda talked about it a little bit, eventually
1009
01:16:43.080 --> 01:16:48.105
repeating that process, you know. If if if there's always this one
1010
01:16:48.965 --> 01:16:54.740
actually, I won't dive into the details there because it it just gets way too nuanced. I I I think it's a it's a good thing that,
1011
01:16:55.220 --> 01:16:55.720
lnurlpro
1012
01:16:57.140 --> 01:16:58.840
that can try to shield,
1013
01:17:00.020 --> 01:17:00.520
your,
1014
01:17:01.855 --> 01:17:03.235
your actual destination,
1015
01:17:03.615 --> 01:17:04.595
your actual node,
1016
01:17:04.975 --> 01:17:12.070
by using the fake private routes, basically. So with keysend, you can't do that because it, like you said, does have that public key
1017
01:17:12.370 --> 01:17:17.030
requirement. That's a yes. That's yeah. There you'd expose the destination, whereas in the
1018
01:17:18.295 --> 01:17:27.994
LN Europe pay protocol, you can just ask for a route to pay. So like a blinded route even, you know, which is a thing from the future, but then you would just get, like, onion
1019
01:17:28.440 --> 01:17:35.580
packages, which you wouldn't see where they are going. You just, you know, put it put them into a node, and it gets paid.
1020
01:17:36.455 --> 01:17:38.215
My my I guess my point is, like
1021
01:17:39.255 --> 01:17:45.435
right? Like, the dream is for civil dispatch to be able to receive fully sovereign donations. Right? Like, I'm,
1022
01:17:46.429 --> 01:17:50.690
Fiat Jaffe, who is the maintainer of l n transaction bot,
1023
01:17:51.230 --> 01:17:53.650
is a fucking legend. Shut up. Yeah.
1024
01:17:54.275 --> 01:17:57.815
And I I hope to have him on on dispatch soon.
1025
01:17:58.755 --> 01:18:00.615
I feel like he doesn't get enough credit,
1026
01:18:01.155 --> 01:18:04.520
but here I am. Right? I'm choosing to use
1027
01:18:05.540 --> 01:18:12.280
I'm choosing to use a custodial wallet because I think it's better I think it's better for the privacy of myself and the privacy of the audience.
1028
01:18:13.065 --> 01:18:14.845
But ideally, right, like,
1029
01:18:15.705 --> 01:18:19.485
it it'd be nice if if there was an easy way for me to accept
1030
01:18:21.190 --> 01:18:24.250
support for this show in a more sovereign way.
1031
01:18:24.870 --> 01:18:34.165
So so you can do it. As as I said, it just needs to have that public server endpoint, which is, you know, would be a problem for you to set it up so it's much easier to set it up. On that?
1032
01:18:34.864 --> 01:18:39.290
Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a trade off. So you even you can be a bit
1033
01:18:39.990 --> 01:18:43.050
you know, you have the place to ask for
1034
01:18:43.510 --> 01:18:44.490
a more private
1035
01:18:45.125 --> 01:18:51.385
way of paying paying, but you need to have that place. Whereas if you just expose
1036
01:18:54.480 --> 01:19:00.100
a node with a private, a public key, which has, like, a public channel, which is already, you know,
1037
01:19:01.204 --> 01:19:07.945
spread in the gossip in the network graph so people know about it or the wallets know about it, then, you know, it could be paid
1038
01:19:08.400 --> 01:19:11.219
the same way. There is no technical difficulty
1039
01:19:12.400 --> 01:19:19.655
technical limitation to that. But it obviously couldn't have, like, route hints, so it couldn't have, like, private channels and things like that because it would be only just a destination exposed.
1040
01:19:20.195 --> 01:19:23.175
So I I think this is, like, a good point to jump into
1041
01:19:23.635 --> 01:19:24.135
fiatjaf's
1042
01:19:24.514 --> 01:19:25.014
newest,
1043
01:19:25.570 --> 01:19:26.070
project.
1044
01:19:26.610 --> 01:19:28.390
I don't know if either of you are
1045
01:19:28.770 --> 01:19:31.910
very familiar with it. Immorden, I think, is the pronunciation.
1046
01:19:33.125 --> 01:19:33.625
Yes.
1047
01:19:34.405 --> 01:19:36.185
And and the Funded by Ellen Big.
1048
01:19:37.045 --> 01:19:39.705
Funded by Ellen Big. Funded by our favorite spook.
1049
01:19:41.210 --> 01:19:41.710
The
1050
01:19:42.330 --> 01:19:44.910
I tease, but don't at the same time. What?
1051
01:19:45.370 --> 01:19:46.430
It's a good initiative.
1052
01:19:46.810 --> 01:19:50.355
You know, I think it's it's a it's a good thing he does fund it.
1053
01:19:50.974 --> 01:19:54.915
I had I'm not gonna I'm not gonna call him out by name, but
1054
01:19:55.295 --> 01:19:57.395
I had a good friend reach out and goes,
1055
01:19:57.719 --> 01:19:59.719
Alan Big can't be a spooked because,
1056
01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:06.060
he funded a more than and I said, yeah. Well, the NSA funds tours, so here we are.
1057
01:20:07.655 --> 01:20:09.815
Yeah. The NSA guarantees that that,
1058
01:20:10.215 --> 01:20:14.775
tour is there. So, you know, they need the anonymity set of us ours as well. So
1059
01:20:16.080 --> 01:20:22.260
so Immortan is this idea, he's creating a lightning implementation that's designed for private light nodes.
1060
01:20:23.120 --> 01:20:24.340
Is that a good summary?
1061
01:20:25.865 --> 01:20:27.065
Yeah. I think so.
1062
01:20:27.465 --> 01:20:32.125
I I don't know enough about, like, the the fine grain details of
1063
01:20:33.305 --> 01:20:43.020
it. But one of the I I I think I I've heard about a few initiatives kinda like this. I forgot what the other one, was called. But this idea of being able to sort of have, like,
1064
01:20:44.355 --> 01:20:49.255
of nodes where inside the cluster, you kind of get this anemic anonymity,
1065
01:20:49.715 --> 01:20:53.820
kind of so when I, you know, I I could be describing this specific project,
1066
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:55.100
incorrectly.
1067
01:20:56.360 --> 01:21:08.094
But I think I'd love the idea of of, like, you know, me as a sender, know, I'm sending into this cluster of nodes, and then I don't know what happens afterwards. It it goes in here. I don't know what node actually receives the funds in the end.
1068
01:21:08.690 --> 01:21:15.670
I I believe that maybe one of the the goals of a Mortem. I could be wrong, but I I think more concepts like that will come out.
1069
01:21:16.815 --> 01:21:28.330
I think Electrum is can be interesting as well. I mean, obviously, they have, like, a smaller team and they started a bit later than the the other implementations, but, you know, their focus is is very much,
1070
01:21:29.110 --> 01:21:32.489
related to privacy as well, and they have, I mean, they have swaps
1071
01:21:32.790 --> 01:21:33.290
done,
1072
01:21:34.255 --> 01:21:35.235
So noncustal
1073
01:21:35.615 --> 01:21:36.115
noncustorial,
1074
01:21:37.295 --> 01:21:44.460
submarine swaps implemented as well as, like, you know, they use the software what's Exchange is using because it's open source,
1075
01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:46.700
with a different, backend.
1076
01:21:47.080 --> 01:21:47.739
And also
1077
01:21:48.280 --> 01:21:49.340
they have, like, rendezvous
1078
01:21:50.840 --> 01:21:52.060
and trampoline routing.
1079
01:21:54.364 --> 01:21:55.905
Trampoline is working already,
1080
01:21:56.284 --> 01:22:00.304
which is again can be a a trade off but also an improvement.
1081
01:22:01.940 --> 01:22:06.520
So, yeah, the you know, there are a lot of people working on this, and I expect,
1082
01:22:07.700 --> 01:22:08.600
you know, large
1083
01:22:09.025 --> 01:22:14.405
improvements in terms of privacy as well in the in the even next couple of months, but certainly within the years.
1084
01:22:15.265 --> 01:22:17.445
I didn't even realize that Morden isn't,
1085
01:22:18.790 --> 01:22:20.490
it's not VHF. Right?
1086
01:22:22.550 --> 01:22:23.210
I think,
1087
01:22:23.670 --> 01:22:24.630
you know, he he was
1088
01:22:26.145 --> 01:22:28.165
he might be involved, but he is certainly,
1089
01:22:28.785 --> 01:22:29.925
advertising it.
1090
01:22:30.385 --> 01:22:31.445
But it's the BLW
1091
01:22:32.145 --> 01:22:32.645
people.
1092
01:22:33.330 --> 01:22:37.990
So there is this Bitcoin lightning wallet which has been one of the first and is based on the on
1093
01:22:38.450 --> 01:22:38.950
the
1094
01:22:39.570 --> 01:22:40.070
eclar
1095
01:22:42.065 --> 01:22:42.885
code base.
1096
01:22:45.185 --> 01:22:45.685
And,
1097
01:22:46.465 --> 01:22:47.845
yes, this yes.
1098
01:22:48.225 --> 01:22:52.150
I think. Yeah. The guy who do who is doing it is probably,
1099
01:22:53.570 --> 01:22:55.510
yeah. Anton Kumar Gorodetsky.
1100
01:22:55.969 --> 01:22:59.995
Yeah. Yeah. Is that just a is that a fiat Jafnim, or is that a different person?
1101
01:23:00.455 --> 01:23:09.869
No. I mean, on Twitter, he has his own. I think on on online dreaming, I think that's his that's his such a boss. I just assume he has, like, 4 very productive NIMs.
1102
01:23:10.570 --> 01:23:13.869
Anything possible, but I All my NIMs are way less productive.
1103
01:23:15.345 --> 01:23:18.165
Yeah. Online dreaming is a is a Twitter handle.
1104
01:23:18.545 --> 01:23:20.085
It's a it's a funny account,
1105
01:23:20.864 --> 01:23:23.950
and I think, you know, they are from different kind of
1106
01:23:24.510 --> 01:23:30.530
at least if this fear, Jeff, you know, is pretending to be in from different parts of the world, so doing very well.
1107
01:23:31.364 --> 01:23:31.864
So,
1108
01:23:32.724 --> 01:23:38.264
we're an hour and a half in here. I think this conversation has been fantastic so far. Freaks,
1109
01:23:38.599 --> 01:23:46.380
I feel like I don't need to remind you since you are the ride or die. Feel free to just post questions into the live chat, whether that's on Twitch,
1110
01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:47.980
Twitter, or YouTube.
1111
01:23:49.625 --> 01:23:55.085
I guess, 6102 has just given up on the KYC, so he just messaged me on Keybase while we're going.
1112
01:23:55.465 --> 01:23:56.765
He wants us to know
1113
01:23:58.220 --> 01:23:58.720
that,
1114
01:23:59.820 --> 01:24:01.680
Moon requires Google Play services,
1115
01:24:02.140 --> 01:24:11.894
which I just take for granted because I've been using Calix OS now, so Micro g also works with it. Yes. But, obviously, we prefer for apps don't require Google Play services,
1116
01:24:12.434 --> 01:24:15.094
even if we can use a open source alternative.
1117
01:24:15.770 --> 01:24:17.630
It's better just not to have that
1118
01:24:18.010 --> 01:24:19.230
dependency period.
1119
01:24:20.890 --> 01:24:22.350
So, I mean, I
1120
01:24:22.735 --> 01:24:25.954
I wanna jump back into privacy, but before we do, I think
1121
01:24:26.255 --> 01:24:27.395
a really cool,
1122
01:24:28.014 --> 01:24:29.474
really cool I mean, it's,
1123
01:24:31.860 --> 01:24:36.040
cool might be the wrong word. A really interesting case study that's happening
1124
01:24:36.900 --> 01:24:39.240
live right now in terms of
1125
01:24:39.860 --> 01:24:40.360
private,
1126
01:24:40.955 --> 01:24:41.695
quote, unquote,
1127
01:24:42.475 --> 01:24:43.775
cryptocurrency transactions
1128
01:24:44.475 --> 01:24:47.455
is we have the largest ransomware attack ever,
1129
01:24:50.600 --> 01:24:51.100
happening
1130
01:24:51.880 --> 01:24:57.020
live. As it as this show is airing, it it has been happening for 2 days now,
1131
01:24:57.555 --> 01:24:59.175
and that's the capital pipeline.
1132
01:25:00.435 --> 01:25:02.375
The largest pipeline in America,
1133
01:25:03.155 --> 01:25:03.975
for gas
1134
01:25:05.450 --> 01:25:11.390
and other petroleum products is is currently being ransomware by the Dark Side Ransomware Group.
1135
01:25:12.490 --> 01:25:12.990
And
1136
01:25:13.435 --> 01:25:16.655
we are seeing gas shortages across the East Coast
1137
01:25:16.955 --> 01:25:18.655
as far down as Louisiana
1138
01:25:18.955 --> 01:25:20.655
and as far up as
1139
01:25:22.440 --> 01:25:23.180
the northeast.
1140
01:25:24.920 --> 01:25:32.965
And what what's really interesting here let let me show you just to the to the people watching the stream. This is this is the capital pipeline. So,
1141
01:25:33.505 --> 01:25:36.645
it is literally just going through all the most,
1142
01:25:39.040 --> 01:25:46.900
I mean, the East Coast is the most dense area of the United States. So as you can see, it just goes down from goes from Texas all the way up to New York,
1143
01:25:47.505 --> 01:25:49.844
and the whole pipeline is shut down right now
1144
01:25:50.385 --> 01:25:50.885
because
1145
01:25:51.585 --> 01:25:52.804
these fucking idiots,
1146
01:25:54.065 --> 01:25:57.580
attach critical infrastructure to the Internet, and they got ransomware.
1147
01:25:59.320 --> 01:26:03.660
What's interesting here is that there's been many articles written on it.
1148
01:26:05.125 --> 01:26:07.065
None of them mentioned Bitcoin specifically,
1149
01:26:09.445 --> 01:26:15.750
and they they if you control f, then none of them say Bitcoin in them. All the reputable articles out of Bloomberg and whatnot,
1150
01:26:17.410 --> 01:26:21.030
Capital Pipeline's own releases, no one mentions Bitcoin specifically.
1151
01:26:21.475 --> 01:26:24.855
And if you if you look at previous DarkSide ransomware,
1152
01:26:26.035 --> 01:26:26.775
they actually,
1153
01:26:27.955 --> 01:26:31.095
usually request both Monero and Bitcoin.
1154
01:26:32.470 --> 01:26:34.330
In the past, they've offered
1155
01:26:35.030 --> 01:26:38.970
a discount of 10% if you pay Monero, but the most recent one,
1156
01:26:39.405 --> 01:26:42.385
they offered a 20% discount if you pay Monero.
1157
01:26:44.285 --> 01:26:47.160
There's a possibility here that this ransomware
1158
01:26:47.700 --> 01:26:51.720
is not asking for Bitcoin at all. They might just be asking for Monero. But regardless,
1159
01:26:52.340 --> 01:26:57.715
let's say that it's like the this past one that I have up on the screen right now, and they're asking for a 20%,
1160
01:26:58.975 --> 01:27:00.675
premium if you pay with Bitcoin.
1161
01:27:02.430 --> 01:27:06.989
What like, does that tell us anything? Is there something we should take from this? Is this, you know
1162
01:27:09.625 --> 01:27:17.005
I mean, these ransomware guys are basically saying that it's gonna cost you 20% more to have private transactions on Bitcoin. Right?
1163
01:27:17.670 --> 01:27:19.930
Well well, why don't they just accept lightning?
1164
01:27:22.150 --> 01:27:26.645
Good luck. Yeah. With only one mixed output, and they're gonna have to loop out.
1165
01:27:30.225 --> 01:27:35.700
No. I I think I I assume just because that 20% is just gonna go into a shit ton of mixing.
1166
01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:39.780
Yeah. And then probably into Monero.
1167
01:27:41.360 --> 01:27:43.935
Yeah. That yeah. They could yeah.
1168
01:27:45.675 --> 01:27:49.935
No. That's that's crazy, this this whole situation. I mean, at a certain point, like,
1169
01:27:50.490 --> 01:28:00.825
30,000,000, maybe it's more, maybe it's less for this scenario. Dude, it's gotta be way more. Right? Like, the the last one was 30,000,000. This is the largest pipeline in in the fucking country.
1170
01:28:01.525 --> 01:28:06.265
Like, it's the what do you think the ransomware request is? It's probably fucking a shit ton.
1171
01:28:07.500 --> 01:28:09.040
I I think in some scenarios,
1172
01:28:11.340 --> 01:28:12.220
the the attackers
1173
01:28:14.175 --> 01:28:19.074
their virus may not even know who they're, like, targeting. It could just be some
1174
01:28:19.855 --> 01:28:23.590
some guy was watching a YouTube stream and ended up downloading it
1175
01:28:24.070 --> 01:28:25.849
and infecting the whole entire pipeline.
1176
01:28:26.150 --> 01:28:33.764
So I it it it could be a situation where the attackers don't even know that it was this big group that I mean, but the counterargument
1177
01:28:34.304 --> 01:28:36.485
to me is if it was cheap,
1178
01:28:37.025 --> 01:28:39.824
I think, like, the largest pipeline in America would be back
1179
01:28:40.490 --> 01:28:44.030
would be turned back on. They would just fucking pay the fucking thing. Right?
1180
01:28:45.770 --> 01:28:46.270
Yeah.
1181
01:28:47.744 --> 01:28:49.284
And and, you know, arguably,
1182
01:28:52.145 --> 01:28:57.410
chain analytics companies could offer support and be, like, just just pay the Bitcoin, and we'll try to track them.
1183
01:28:59.250 --> 01:29:01.750
You know, but I I do agree, like, they they,
1184
01:29:02.050 --> 01:29:07.270
at a certain point, just just pay the damn thing. They probably don't wanna set a terrible precedent though.
1185
01:29:07.715 --> 01:29:14.055
So we have we have some person in the comments asking what was the 30,000,000 for. This was from Krebs on security,
1186
01:29:14.970 --> 01:29:17.470
and it's it's based on the
1187
01:29:18.490 --> 01:29:21.870
the the the other largest ransomware attack that they're aware of.
1188
01:29:22.675 --> 01:29:23.895
They requested $30,000,000
1189
01:29:24.595 --> 01:29:31.815
whether that was through Monero or Bitcoin, and it actually got negotiated down to 11,000,000. So there's a really good article by Krebs,
1190
01:29:33.940 --> 01:29:35.719
which I will post in the chat.
1191
01:29:36.340 --> 01:29:37.960
But if you go to Krebs on security.com,
1192
01:29:39.060 --> 01:29:41.080
it'll be the most recent blog post.
1193
01:29:41.895 --> 01:29:47.594
And and he he basically analyzes what we know from that previous ransomware. One thing that's interesting is
1194
01:29:49.640 --> 01:29:51.740
I'm pretty sure Darkseid is
1195
01:29:52.680 --> 01:29:55.820
on the sanctions list, so I wonder if
1196
01:29:57.325 --> 01:30:01.745
they're not legally allowed to pay the ransom regardless of what the price is.
1197
01:30:03.005 --> 01:30:03.985
That's a good point.
1198
01:30:06.489 --> 01:30:10.190
It's very interesting watching this all play out. I mean, I I,
1199
01:30:11.755 --> 01:30:15.215
my cohost on rabbit hole recap, and we're gonna talk about this on Thursday,
1200
01:30:17.034 --> 01:30:22.280
had a bent where he said he said maybe it's a false flag, but I I, you know, I think our infrastructure
1201
01:30:22.739 --> 01:30:23.719
is so fucking
1202
01:30:24.739 --> 01:30:25.239
vulnerable
1203
01:30:25.699 --> 01:30:26.199
that
1204
01:30:27.219 --> 01:30:32.265
it doesn't really surprise me that we have a whole pipeline down because of this shit. Like, it it
1205
01:30:34.965 --> 01:30:40.585
doesn't my my my my immediate thought is incompetence, not not false flag here.
1206
01:30:41.250 --> 01:30:46.630
Yeah. What was the big one from last year? Was wasn't there another huge one that it was, like, core infrastructure
1207
01:30:47.410 --> 01:30:48.310
that got hacked
1208
01:30:51.045 --> 01:30:59.590
in the US at least. We had, like, that water plant that they just caught it at, like, the last second. It wasn't even ransomware. They were just gonna, like, poison the water or something.
1209
01:31:00.130 --> 01:31:03.670
Wasn't that what it was? Better. At least it wasn't ransomware.
1210
01:31:06.445 --> 01:31:09.905
I I don't know. This whole thing is, like, pretty crazy just watching it unfold,
1211
01:31:11.805 --> 01:31:18.000
and it's just interesting how you don't hear any we don't know any of the specifics. They want they they refuse to tell us any of the specifics.
1212
01:31:18.699 --> 01:31:20.560
Yeah. The other question is that
1213
01:31:21.260 --> 01:31:21.760
how
1214
01:31:23.465 --> 01:31:26.605
reasonable it is to kind of be able to change the infrastructure.
1215
01:31:27.785 --> 01:31:29.245
So what do they need?
1216
01:31:30.185 --> 01:31:32.285
Is the data that valuable? That's the question.
1217
01:31:33.260 --> 01:31:34.559
I mean, the time is probably.
1218
01:31:35.500 --> 01:31:41.020
But, you know, the longer they go on, the worse it gets. There's gas stations without any gas right now,
1219
01:31:41.615 --> 01:31:44.575
like, across the East Coast, and it's just gonna get worse. And,
1220
01:31:46.575 --> 01:31:55.289
like, how how high could the ransom be? Like, just fucking I guess, you just you should just pay it. Like, this this is one of the interesting things about these ransomware groups is that they're actually
1221
01:31:55.590 --> 01:32:01.435
they, like, work on, like, a web of trust system. Like, they they almost always will give you the decryption key
1222
01:32:01.895 --> 01:32:06.315
Yeah. If you pay because if they don't, they know they're not gonna get from the next person.
1223
01:32:08.490 --> 01:32:20.505
I don't know. It's just a really interesting topic. Yeah? Do you think it's a I mean, you mentioned that no articles are mentioned in Bitcoin. I mean, do you do you think it's even if Bitcoin is Bitcoin or Monero or whatever is the
1224
01:32:21.125 --> 01:32:28.570
the means of, payment that they want, do you do you think it's maybe a good thing in this scenario that that that part isn't getting coverage,
1225
01:32:29.110 --> 01:32:31.849
not just on from the price perspective, but,
1226
01:32:32.305 --> 01:32:36.725
I mean, that's just more FUD that we have to try to tackle or or, you know, maybe it's not.
1227
01:32:37.905 --> 01:32:42.929
So I I don't know. What's your opinion on the fact that if it is Bitcoin that they're trying to accept,
1228
01:32:44.190 --> 01:32:49.730
that it's not being publicized? Well, so that's what's weird to me. Right? Is because usually mainstream media,
1229
01:32:52.155 --> 01:32:56.735
like, will take any chance any chance they get to throw some FUD our way.
1230
01:32:57.755 --> 01:33:01.360
So I feel like if they could FUD Bitcoin, they would FUD Bitcoin on it.
1231
01:33:02.380 --> 01:33:02.880
And
1232
01:33:03.580 --> 01:33:05.440
one interesting aspect of Monero
1233
01:33:06.425 --> 01:33:07.245
is and
1234
01:33:07.784 --> 01:33:12.765
and and this is just, like, the current state of Bitcoin Twitter and probably also just because I have
1235
01:33:13.290 --> 01:33:16.350
such a large platform on Bitcoin Twitter, is that
1236
01:33:16.810 --> 01:33:28.965
I wanted to talk about this on Twitter yesterday, but I just didn't really feel comfortable about it because I just knew I was gonna get attacked from, like, every fucking side if I just even fucking mentioned it. So that's why I waited for an hour and a half into this show because
1237
01:33:29.585 --> 01:33:31.870
most of those people will not make it to this point.
1238
01:33:34.430 --> 01:33:34.930
The
1239
01:33:35.710 --> 01:33:39.410
my thought is that this ransom is just completely in Monero,
1240
01:33:40.190 --> 01:33:40.690
and
1241
01:33:42.395 --> 01:33:47.454
one of the interesting things is the US Marshals Service who has been auctioning off Bitcoin this whole time,
1242
01:33:47.915 --> 01:33:50.574
they refused they will not auction off Monero.
1243
01:33:51.650 --> 01:33:54.310
And the reason is because is is because
1244
01:33:54.690 --> 01:33:56.790
basically, it's because they think, basically,
1245
01:33:57.330 --> 01:34:01.575
Monero usage is is inherently criminal. It's only for privacy focused users.
1246
01:34:02.595 --> 01:34:06.375
So allowing Monero back into the system is like,
1247
01:34:07.715 --> 01:34:09.495
seizing cocaine and then
1248
01:34:10.060 --> 01:34:11.200
auctioning it off.
1249
01:34:11.820 --> 01:34:18.560
So they won't auction off Monero, and I could see them being extra strict about paying ransoms in Monero versus Bitcoin,
1250
01:34:19.284 --> 01:34:25.144
for the exact reason you said. Because if they pay Bitcoin, then they can have a whole team there trying to trace it. Even though I don't think
1251
01:34:25.525 --> 01:34:29.110
I think if you're a sophisticated actor, you can use Bitcoin privately relatively
1252
01:34:29.570 --> 01:34:33.590
not relatively easily, but easy enough. You know, it'll cost them
1253
01:34:34.050 --> 01:34:40.045
less than 20%, but it'll cost them a little bit extra money, but they can use it in a in a relatively private way,
1254
01:34:40.505 --> 01:34:42.525
if they're sophisticated and they're patient.
1255
01:34:43.305 --> 01:34:44.445
I think maybe
1256
01:34:45.040 --> 01:34:51.060
these large corporations would be more susceptible to paying it in Bitcoin rather than Monero, and maybe that's why
1257
01:34:53.195 --> 01:35:01.855
maybe that's why we haven't heard anything. That that, like, seems reasonable to me. Or maybe the premium that they're asking is, like, 30 or 40% this time, and they still offer the option.
1258
01:35:03.980 --> 01:35:06.480
I I did not know that about the Marshalls not,
1259
01:35:07.260 --> 01:35:09.360
not selling not auctioning off
1260
01:35:09.745 --> 01:35:18.965
Monero. Do do they just do they do they actually burn it then? Or They're hobble. I guess we wouldn't know. And if, yeah, they're if they're hobblers, then then They keep keep it for customs.
1261
01:35:19.480 --> 01:35:24.780
I assume they use it for all their, like, illegal activities.
1262
01:35:25.400 --> 01:35:29.020
Yeah. Well, let's dip into that supply and save the East Coast.
1263
01:35:32.005 --> 01:35:38.185
Yeah. I I don't know. I this is gonna be an interesting thing to watch play out. I'm I'm curious when we see more information.
1264
01:35:39.390 --> 01:35:44.210
We will be talking about it on rabbit hole recap. We will continue to talk about it on sale and dispatch as well.
1265
01:35:45.765 --> 01:35:50.805
I'm curious if if can you spin this just for the sake of, you know, argument? Is,
1266
01:35:51.605 --> 01:35:54.185
can you spin this the other way? Like, that obviously,
1267
01:35:56.260 --> 01:35:57.239
it is not Bitcoin
1268
01:35:57.540 --> 01:36:01.160
making this possible. It's the digital infrastructure and their bad
1269
01:36:01.620 --> 01:36:04.440
OPSEC is which is making the attack possible.
1270
01:36:04.820 --> 01:36:05.320
So
1271
01:36:05.685 --> 01:36:06.185
actually
1272
01:36:06.645 --> 01:36:08.425
having a private way to pay it
1273
01:36:08.885 --> 01:36:11.945
or I mean, I'm talk talk about just having Bitcoin
1274
01:36:12.324 --> 01:36:14.744
available, but even, you know, speaking
1275
01:36:15.240 --> 01:36:17.980
for Monero in that sense as well, that is small private
1276
01:36:18.360 --> 01:36:18.860
that,
1277
01:36:19.880 --> 01:36:21.660
it makes it possible to pay it.
1278
01:36:22.120 --> 01:36:31.625
Yeah. I mean, I think Is it is it not a good thing then? I I It's available as a tool. Right? Yeah. I mean, I think the law the adversity attack itself is terrible. You know what I'm saying?
1279
01:36:31.925 --> 01:36:32.585
The logical
1280
01:36:33.180 --> 01:36:33.920
the logical,
1281
01:36:34.780 --> 01:36:39.360
understanding is that good money is is useful for criminals as well.
1282
01:36:39.820 --> 01:36:41.500
Right? No one no one says
1283
01:36:42.475 --> 01:36:46.494
if if if you get kidnapped and you have to pay the the ransom in
1284
01:36:46.955 --> 01:36:51.935
in US dollars and a duffle bag, no one's like US dollars caused this kidnapping. Right?
1285
01:36:53.280 --> 01:36:54.820
These are if anything,
1286
01:36:55.520 --> 01:36:57.220
you know, the ransomware
1287
01:36:58.240 --> 01:37:04.015
attacks that we've seen because because because you actually have a money that you can you can pay them off in, historically, it's been Bitcoin,
1288
01:37:06.395 --> 01:37:13.180
make our systems more secure. Right? Because they're exposing vulnerabilities that were already there. They just couldn't be monetized in the past, so they were secretly,
1289
01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:20.815
being used. Right? Like, they were they were secretly being used by enemy governments and enemy corporations
1290
01:37:21.195 --> 01:37:23.295
and and malicious individuals altogether.
1291
01:37:23.994 --> 01:37:27.855
And because there's there's an incentive to monetize those attacks,
1292
01:37:28.220 --> 01:37:31.760
we're being made aware of how vulnerable our infrastructure really is.
1293
01:37:32.940 --> 01:37:34.480
All that said, Open Arms,
1294
01:37:35.180 --> 01:37:37.200
I don't really see the boomers in government,
1295
01:37:38.035 --> 01:37:41.895
going that logical route. I I do see this being used as
1296
01:37:42.355 --> 01:37:43.335
a FUD fuel.
1297
01:37:44.115 --> 01:37:47.869
Yeah. I would push back though if we do find out
1298
01:37:48.489 --> 01:37:51.310
if we do find out that this ransomware was Monero only,
1299
01:37:52.145 --> 01:38:01.730
there's gonna be a shit ton of compliance bros that come out, and they're like, Bitcoin is is better because we it doesn't support these ransomware things or whatever.
1300
01:38:02.510 --> 01:38:05.650
And I I I think it's a canary in the coal mine type of situation.
1301
01:38:06.065 --> 01:38:08.005
I think we should be worried if
1302
01:38:08.305 --> 01:38:09.285
the most sophisticated,
1303
01:38:10.545 --> 01:38:11.045
wealthiest,
1304
01:38:12.465 --> 01:38:13.605
actors in
1305
01:38:14.320 --> 01:38:16.260
in private digital transactions
1306
01:38:16.560 --> 01:38:18.420
are moving to a different currency
1307
01:38:18.800 --> 01:38:23.219
is something that we should all be aware of, and we should be actively trying to improve
1308
01:38:23.575 --> 01:38:24.955
Bitcoin in that respect.
1309
01:38:25.335 --> 01:38:26.075
Yeah. Absolutely.
1310
01:38:26.614 --> 01:38:32.155
I 100% agree with that. The the I almost kinda take that approach with my own home network,
1311
01:38:32.820 --> 01:38:35.640
Because I have my raspy blitz on my own network.
1312
01:38:36.180 --> 01:38:40.360
If if funds go missing on there, I know I've been owned.
1313
01:38:41.255 --> 01:38:46.155
So it kinda puts a price on it puts the price on data. I would I would rather
1314
01:38:46.695 --> 01:38:54.340
know that someone was on my network and took my funds than than know that someone's on my network listening, and I don't even know
1315
01:38:54.800 --> 01:39:10.540
they exist, and they just watch. And and exactly, like, what if, you know, today, we're putting a price on we're putting a price on that virus. And and if they are trying to accept Bitcoin, Monero, whatever, it's ransomware, so they're trying to accept something. We're putting a price on that and trying to incentivize
1316
01:39:11.800 --> 01:39:13.420
Well, they're doubling out of the way.
1317
01:39:14.085 --> 01:39:17.465
Yeah. We're trying to incentivize that instead of the alternative,
1318
01:39:17.765 --> 01:39:22.105
which is another government, like, what, blowing up a pipeline if they could.
1319
01:39:22.660 --> 01:39:25.960
You know. So I I think it's better that it's monetized instead of
1320
01:39:26.420 --> 01:39:28.680
for extremely malicious purposes.
1321
01:39:29.460 --> 01:39:35.225
One of the coolest things I read about when I was first becoming a Bitcoiner was there's this one guy on Reddit,
1322
01:39:36.485 --> 01:39:43.230
Reddit. Never used Reddit anymore, but there's this one nim on Reddit who just insisted that every time you spin up a new cloud server,
1323
01:39:43.610 --> 01:39:46.830
you should just put a hot wallet on it of, like, at least $10,000
1324
01:39:47.450 --> 01:39:53.225
because you're just, like, you're just putting a nice low floor there that if if just the casual
1325
01:39:53.765 --> 01:39:58.825
attacker just comes through, they'll probably just take your take your money. And and since then,
1326
01:39:59.290 --> 01:40:04.590
on all my computers, you know, I I I keep a I keep a little bit of a hot wallet there,
1327
01:40:04.969 --> 01:40:15.340
just to be like a nice little canary in the coal mine. Like, if if you come in, you're gonna have to have a low time preference if you wanna actively surveil me because you're just gonna have this thing sitting here. Is it is it the wallet dot dot?
1328
01:40:16.440 --> 01:40:26.245
Is the wall well, yeah. Just you just got, like, a nice little wallet dot dot. If you wanna keylog me or whatever, just the money is sitting there. And I was like, you're just gonna have to fucking either not take it or,
1329
01:40:26.785 --> 01:40:31.205
take it and let me know that you that you've compromised the system. I think it's kind of a cool little,
1330
01:40:32.179 --> 01:40:32.679
aspect.
1331
01:40:33.540 --> 01:40:38.210
Oh, okay. Sure, Indesh. Okay. Hopefully, no one goes after your laptop now. You know?
1332
01:40:38.775 --> 01:40:44.395
Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm already a target, so I don't think they really added much. I if anything, the bounty is not enough,
1333
01:40:45.255 --> 01:40:46.875
once once they hit the machine.
1334
01:40:47.255 --> 01:40:47.415
The
1335
01:40:48.390 --> 01:40:55.210
I mean, all my all my real funds are not connected to this machine, so just keep that in mind, attackers that are listening right now.
1336
01:40:55.590 --> 01:40:57.130
Yes. They they are a multi jurisdictional
1337
01:40:57.590 --> 01:40:58.090
multisig,
1338
01:40:58.455 --> 01:41:00.475
which, you know, you lost the keys for.
1339
01:41:02.375 --> 01:41:02.875
So
1340
01:41:04.615 --> 01:41:05.835
should we talk about,
1341
01:41:06.455 --> 01:41:08.315
we we in the Sphinx tribe,
1342
01:41:08.920 --> 01:41:10.860
there was a lot of talk about seed XOR
1343
01:41:11.480 --> 01:41:13.100
Oh. Versus multisig.
1344
01:41:15.615 --> 01:41:18.675
Some person in the chat wants to borrow my laptop real quick.
1345
01:41:20.175 --> 01:41:20.675
The,
1346
01:41:22.735 --> 01:41:24.035
seed XOR versus,
1347
01:41:25.310 --> 01:41:25.810
multisig.
1348
01:41:26.750 --> 01:41:29.970
Open Arms, you wanna go through the different trade offs between the 2 of them?
1349
01:41:30.830 --> 01:41:40.105
First, could you describe XOR? Because this is a relatively new thing. Right? I I haven't had a chance to to catch up on it. So seed XOR is this idea
1350
01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:42.580
that, you use a relatively
1351
01:41:45.360 --> 01:41:45.860
straightforward
1352
01:41:47.600 --> 01:41:53.645
algorithm to to separate a seed into 2 seeds that are both BIP 39 compliant,
1353
01:41:54.025 --> 01:42:00.510
or you could do multiple. You can even do more than that. So you could do 10 seeds, and you need all the pieces. So it's almost like,
1354
01:42:01.230 --> 01:42:01.730
Shamir's
1355
01:42:02.270 --> 01:42:04.050
it's like Shamir's secret sharding,
1356
01:42:06.405 --> 01:42:06.905
but
1357
01:42:07.925 --> 01:42:08.425
each
1358
01:42:08.804 --> 01:42:11.385
each secret is also BIP 39 compliant.
1359
01:42:13.100 --> 01:42:18.560
How how did I do and and I guess it's it's it's easier to do. You can just do it, like, on on paper by yourself,
1360
01:42:19.340 --> 01:42:27.824
to prove that that it worked rather than with Shamir's is, like, a little bit more complicated to verify. What do you what do you think about that explanation, Open Arms?
1361
01:42:28.900 --> 01:42:33.720
I mean, I I didn't look into it very deeply, but I think that's that should be
1362
01:42:34.340 --> 01:42:35.240
correct. Yes.
1363
01:42:37.605 --> 01:42:54.965
So with all that said I'm not sure. Can can you do that on paper? Yeah. It's it's You release like a lookup table. Yeah. Yeah. I I should get the get the You released the lookup table, which is really fucking cool, and you I mean, you it's it's a little bit harder to verify the actual seed. Right? You would have to do, like, verifiable dice rolls, whatnot
1364
01:42:55.665 --> 01:42:58.245
to begin with, but if you have a seed that you trust,
1365
01:42:58.545 --> 01:43:00.725
actually turning it into seed XOR,
1366
01:43:01.850 --> 01:43:04.750
is a relatively easy process that you can do on your own.
1367
01:43:05.130 --> 01:43:08.510
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. See, that's it's it's yeah. It's very elegant.
1368
01:43:09.685 --> 01:43:11.545
So it's almost almost additive?
1369
01:43:11.845 --> 01:43:25.270
Like, it almost can be additive to what your current setup is, basically? Yeah. It has it has the same negative as single sig or Shamir's that you have to have combine all your secrets onto the same device. In this case, it would be a cold card,
1370
01:43:25.755 --> 01:43:26.415
to sign,
1371
01:43:28.315 --> 01:43:28.815
but
1372
01:43:29.515 --> 01:43:30.015
the,
1373
01:43:32.315 --> 01:43:36.880
the benefit over single sig is, like, instead of having just a straight clear text,
1374
01:43:37.900 --> 01:43:54.880
you know, seed plate or something like that, a metal plate that has your seed, you'd have multiple of them. But but there's no redundancy, so you have to you have to have all the secrets. Otherwise, you're you're shit out of luck, like shmear. Yeah. What what what is nice is that it can be done retroactively. So you already have a seed
1375
01:43:55.760 --> 01:43:58.739
because otherwise there is no, like, practical
1376
01:44:00.239 --> 01:44:02.285
difference with, like, using a big
1377
01:44:02.765 --> 01:44:15.079
a good pass phrase. Right? I mean in that case you have 2 parts. You have the pass phrase and you have the seed, and you combine them you have the wallet. But with this one, I mean first of all you can use as many parts as you like and also
1378
01:44:15.540 --> 01:44:18.760
you can break down your seed which is already existing.
1379
01:44:19.875 --> 01:44:20.855
So you
1380
01:44:21.635 --> 01:44:23.335
you can destroy that one backup
1381
01:44:24.115 --> 01:44:25.175
after you have
1382
01:44:25.795 --> 01:44:27.335
obviously breaking down
1383
01:44:28.280 --> 01:44:32.059
have, distributed into these source seeds and
1384
01:44:32.360 --> 01:44:33.260
seed source
1385
01:44:34.119 --> 01:44:34.619
and,
1386
01:44:36.345 --> 01:44:39.085
you know, verify that you can recover, you can just
1387
01:44:39.545 --> 01:44:44.685
destroy that original seed and you can have only have this kind of seed source
1388
01:44:46.060 --> 01:44:49.440
stored in, you know, different places or in in multiplies.
1389
01:44:49.980 --> 01:44:55.775
It's, yeah, it's it's very nice thing to have if you if you ever worry about that you have only 1
1390
01:44:56.155 --> 01:45:00.094
seed which you didn't break up, you shouldn't, like, cut into 3 pieces.
1391
01:45:00.395 --> 01:45:02.014
Rather, you should do this.
1392
01:45:06.469 --> 01:45:08.489
What I like about it is that
1393
01:45:09.429 --> 01:45:11.130
it creates plausible deniability
1394
01:45:11.755 --> 01:45:14.975
everyone who uses a cold card or anything else that supports it,
1395
01:45:16.635 --> 01:45:17.775
and I like that
1396
01:45:18.235 --> 01:45:19.695
it's a relatively easy
1397
01:45:20.300 --> 01:45:20.800
improvement
1398
01:45:21.180 --> 01:45:25.520
that a single sig user can do. So so multisig is still the,
1399
01:45:26.380 --> 01:45:27.360
gold standard,
1400
01:45:29.125 --> 01:45:34.105
but, we've acknowledged on the show many times that there's still a lot of complexities with multisig.
1401
01:45:35.125 --> 01:45:39.630
I think it's just significantly easier than it's ever been, and it will continue to get easier.
1402
01:45:40.410 --> 01:45:45.275
And I think a lot of those concerns are overblown, but but it it definitely is more complex. I mean,
1403
01:45:46.155 --> 01:45:49.215
I don't know how many newcomers you guys have onboarded recently,
1404
01:45:50.475 --> 01:45:54.495
but, we definitely live in a little fucking bubble. Like, it is.
1405
01:45:56.190 --> 01:45:58.210
But I think what this thing is for, like,
1406
01:45:58.990 --> 01:46:03.715
governance purposes, like when you actually need to have 3 people controlling funds
1407
01:46:04.514 --> 01:46:08.135
and only, you know, 2 hours of the street can make a transaction.
1408
01:46:08.514 --> 01:46:09.175
That is
1409
01:46:09.715 --> 01:46:29.145
a a very good way to kind of, you know, govern, like, family funds or, like, a small company or and and and obviously you can, you can extend this to higher numbers, not infinite, but, you know, reasonably high. And and You can also use it in combination. You can you can seed XOR 1 of the multisig seeds. This is a backup improvement,
1410
01:46:30.760 --> 01:46:32.300
where you don't need to put
1411
01:46:32.760 --> 01:46:34.060
all your seed
1412
01:46:34.520 --> 01:46:35.020
into
1413
01:46:37.195 --> 01:46:40.315
a wallet. I'm I'm I'm into into one place, but I'm not,
1414
01:46:40.955 --> 01:46:41.775
yeah, I mean,
1415
01:46:42.475 --> 01:46:45.055
it sounds to me because it's
1416
01:46:46.300 --> 01:46:52.480
it's not derived information but it's actually combining it that you know it's cryptographically safe as well so it's it's
1417
01:46:53.425 --> 01:46:55.605
I cannot compare it to, like, you know, how,
1418
01:46:57.505 --> 01:47:01.125
compare it to, like, you know, Shamir Shamir Sikorshearing, but
1419
01:47:02.950 --> 01:47:11.290
I would think that it is, you know, comparable to that in kind of in in terms of security. So if you have one plate, you have no chance of recovering
1420
01:47:13.245 --> 01:47:16.304
the whole seed without the other one. So
1421
01:47:16.685 --> 01:47:19.344
that that that is good. And in terms of redundancy,
1422
01:47:19.645 --> 01:47:21.265
I mean, you can do
1423
01:47:21.990 --> 01:47:22.890
you can use
1424
01:47:23.990 --> 01:47:25.930
methods of backups and combine them
1425
01:47:26.390 --> 01:47:28.010
to have redundant packages
1426
01:47:29.595 --> 01:47:35.455
without using mode sig, still with your single sig. But, I mean, at least the the scheme I've been
1427
01:47:37.980 --> 01:47:38.480
studying
1428
01:47:39.099 --> 01:47:44.845
and, like, kind of writing down that at least it's it's using pass phrase as well. So,
1429
01:47:45.405 --> 01:47:48.065
you know, if you don't haven't used the pass phrase,
1430
01:47:48.685 --> 01:47:50.625
you you cannot use that kind of thing.
1431
01:47:53.230 --> 01:48:02.765
So the yeah. So the best thing is that, you know, you just have a seed which you haven't circulated passphrase and you feel uneasy. Well, you can you can use it in combination with passphrase
1432
01:48:03.304 --> 01:48:10.284
too. Yes. You can do. You can do. But what I'm saying is that you don't need to move the funds to to secure them more with this method.
1433
01:48:10.700 --> 01:48:20.320
I think it's important yeah. Yeah. I agree. I it's but it's also important for the freaks to realize, like like, guys, the majority of the time, especially if you're not a public figure,
1434
01:48:20.765 --> 01:48:23.585
your complexity is going to be what kills you
1435
01:48:24.045 --> 01:48:24.945
Yeah. More
1436
01:48:25.485 --> 01:48:27.745
than, you know, an adversarial attacker.
1437
01:48:28.360 --> 01:48:30.700
You need to document it very carefully and put it into,
1438
01:48:31.640 --> 01:48:33.260
the dead man's switch.
1439
01:48:33.960 --> 01:48:36.940
Yeah. Which adds a privacy risk to that as well.
1440
01:48:37.625 --> 01:48:39.565
Well, you can have your own, but yes.
1441
01:48:40.185 --> 01:48:40.685
Yeah.
1442
01:48:41.545 --> 01:48:45.245
Well, just documenting things, backing up things is a privacy risk,
1443
01:48:47.770 --> 01:48:50.910
but that you have to balance because you should back up things. The
1444
01:48:52.650 --> 01:48:53.150
yeah.
1445
01:48:53.690 --> 01:48:59.775
I I so I had I had someone message me individually. I just want the freaks to know, per the previous conversation,
1446
01:49:00.315 --> 01:49:06.239
that I operate under the assumption that my device is already owned. Okay, guys? So there there is no,
1447
01:49:08.880 --> 01:49:19.365
if if if you wanna attack my fucking computer, have at it, but just know that I'm already assuming that there's, like, 4 different attackers already on the device. So just operate under that assumption.
1448
01:49:19.825 --> 01:49:21.505
Yep. VIP it regularly. That's,
1449
01:49:21.985 --> 01:49:22.885
best advice.
1450
01:49:25.460 --> 01:49:27.320
So what should we talk about next, guys?
1451
01:49:31.140 --> 01:49:31.880
Good question.
1452
01:49:34.455 --> 01:49:39.115
Yeah. I I I kinda wanted to highlight, at least in in this scenario, I've I've watched
1453
01:49:40.295 --> 01:49:40.970
the the
1454
01:49:49.715 --> 01:49:55.815
what's the other issue? Coinbase? Yeah. We have the evil empire on top. To those watching the video stream, that's Coinbase,
1455
01:49:56.434 --> 01:49:59.574
which is the most volume exchange still to date. Most volume
1456
01:50:00.260 --> 01:50:03.640
spot exchange, and then we have the good guys underneath, which is BISK.
1457
01:50:04.740 --> 01:50:09.864
Is but it's USD BISK. Right? So I I I would think it's probably
1458
01:50:10.165 --> 01:50:11.704
have more liquidity in euro.
1459
01:50:12.724 --> 01:50:20.310
Maybe. But then then it would be 2 different currencies displayed, so it's just not clean. They were just pointing it out that, you know, there's a lot of,
1460
01:50:21.030 --> 01:50:25.155
there are multiple currencies happening, and they have completely different kind of order books.
1461
01:50:26.094 --> 01:50:30.195
Yeah. I mean, the real volume's happening on the Monero Bitcoin order book on risk,
1462
01:50:30.895 --> 01:50:37.130
but that would be really surprising if I displayed that. Yeah. It's, like, 80% of their volume is the Monero Bitcoin order book.
1463
01:50:37.750 --> 01:50:38.250
Wow.
1464
01:50:38.949 --> 01:50:42.170
Okay. Which is why they have a fork happening right now,
1465
01:50:42.545 --> 01:50:43.825
and it's like a
1466
01:50:44.305 --> 01:50:47.285
Is it It's a real Yeah. They have their own v cache happening.
1467
01:50:47.985 --> 01:50:54.080
It's just a principle fork, isn't it? It's like it's they are not forking the code. They need to build up completely new from,
1468
01:50:55.900 --> 01:50:56.720
to be based
1469
01:50:57.315 --> 01:51:00.534
on Monero. Right? This have a new project, is that it?
1470
01:51:00.914 --> 01:51:01.414
Yeah.
1471
01:51:02.034 --> 01:51:08.030
Yeah. I don't know I don't know exactly. It is it is definitely a principle for it, because if if the goal is to just,
1472
01:51:08.409 --> 01:51:09.869
create a platform for
1473
01:51:10.250 --> 01:51:10.750
Bitcoin,
1474
01:51:11.210 --> 01:51:12.489
Monero swaps, then,
1475
01:51:13.210 --> 01:51:20.495
I don't know why you would just I don't know why you'd use the Biscope base. Like, the Biscope base is designed in a way to handle fiat trades.
1476
01:51:21.995 --> 01:51:25.935
I feel like you can do it more streamlined if you didn't wanna handle fiat trades, but
1477
01:51:27.130 --> 01:51:29.710
not my fight, and I will not be fighting that.
1478
01:51:31.690 --> 01:51:39.855
You wanna talk about Taproot? Are you guys optimistic on Taproot? We have a new difficulty adjustment about to happen. Is it gonna get activated in the next difficulty adjustment?
1479
01:51:40.715 --> 01:51:41.215
No.
1480
01:51:42.489 --> 01:51:43.869
Where were you at? 55%
1481
01:51:44.329 --> 01:51:44.829
now?
1482
01:51:45.769 --> 01:51:46.670
Less than that.
1483
01:51:47.130 --> 01:51:47.789
It's like,
1484
01:51:48.650 --> 01:51:49.550
seriously something.
1485
01:51:51.135 --> 01:51:52.195
Was it taproot.watch.com?
1486
01:51:53.775 --> 01:51:56.515
35. Yes. Well, I mean taproot.watch.
1487
01:51:57.910 --> 01:52:01.290
Okay. The the the whole block, the whole 2 week period
1488
01:52:01.830 --> 01:52:03.210
is at 35, but
1489
01:52:03.885 --> 01:52:05.505
we had some recent adjustments,
1490
01:52:05.885 --> 01:52:09.665
recent people signaling. I think pull in wasn't fully signaling at first.
1491
01:52:10.045 --> 01:52:12.950
Now they are. So the current total is 54.35%.
1492
01:52:15.570 --> 01:52:16.070
Right.
1493
01:52:16.530 --> 01:52:22.855
So going into the next block, we'll we'll have that or or maybe a little bit better if if people are sorry. Not next block. The next
1494
01:52:23.475 --> 01:52:26.535
next Unless unless the pools decide to fuck with us.
1495
01:52:28.115 --> 01:52:30.135
Yeah. Which people did last time.
1496
01:52:30.630 --> 01:52:32.490
Yeah. Didn't b t c yeah. Btc.com
1497
01:52:33.110 --> 01:52:36.170
is at one signal block out of a 142.
1498
01:52:36.870 --> 01:52:38.010
What's up with that?
1499
01:52:39.015 --> 01:52:43.575
They're gonna fuck with us. They always fuck with us in the signaling periods, because they can they can fuck with the
1500
01:52:44.855 --> 01:52:48.555
when we get really close, if if they switch what they signal,
1501
01:52:49.480 --> 01:52:51.260
they're gonna actually affect the price.
1502
01:52:51.560 --> 01:52:56.940
Last time it was extra bad because Segway was also being activated on Litecoin, and f two pool had
1503
01:52:57.284 --> 01:52:59.784
majority over on Litecoin as well.
1504
01:53:00.485 --> 01:53:04.940
So they were changing their signaling on both and affecting the prices of both
1505
01:53:05.420 --> 01:53:07.120
as they got closer to activation.
1506
01:53:08.460 --> 01:53:10.800
So I would be who have everyone to expect,
1507
01:53:12.140 --> 01:53:18.055
that we're gonna see, you know, them fucking around with us. As as we get closer, the incentive becomes more and more.
1508
01:53:20.755 --> 01:53:21.255
Francis,
1509
01:53:22.510 --> 01:53:23.810
Francis of Bull Bitcoin,
1510
01:53:24.590 --> 01:53:25.090
he,
1511
01:53:26.430 --> 01:53:28.750
made a very interesting point that, you know, there's
1512
01:53:29.310 --> 01:53:30.210
no one remembers
1513
01:53:30.815 --> 01:53:34.435
the the guys who signaled in between. Like, everyone remembers
1514
01:53:34.975 --> 01:53:42.050
the first guys to signal and the last guys to signal when the activation is, like, really fucking tight. So the the incentive in the middle is kind of,
1515
01:53:44.370 --> 01:53:48.230
just not as strong. So I I do expect fuck arounds to happen.
1516
01:53:48.735 --> 01:53:49.395
Do you think,
1517
01:53:49.775 --> 01:53:51.235
like, especially with Binance,
1518
01:53:51.535 --> 01:54:01.690
you know, going on Twitter and saying, hey, guys, should we signal and and that kind of bullshit. Do you think they're trying to save the day at the end and say, yes, guys. We're we're the reason,
1519
01:54:02.070 --> 01:54:04.250
you know, kind of a publicity stunt?
1520
01:54:04.685 --> 01:54:09.265
I think I think if you use Binance as your pool, you're not a real Bitcoin miner. But,
1521
01:54:11.085 --> 01:54:14.510
all I can say is we have all these proof of stake currencies coming out,
1522
01:54:15.710 --> 01:54:22.370
that are gonna have KYC regulated fucking cut exchanges as their main security providers of the network, so
1523
01:54:22.835 --> 01:54:28.115
they can have fun staying poor with that. Like, that's not gonna be a a pleasant thing. At least Binance is,
1524
01:54:28.835 --> 01:54:32.510
what is Binance percentage right now? They're, like, fucking nothing. 0%.
1525
01:54:33.929 --> 01:54:34.429
Percent?
1526
01:54:34.889 --> 01:54:35.389
10.34%
1527
01:54:36.250 --> 01:54:37.630
Oh, yeah. Binance pool,
1528
01:54:38.489 --> 01:54:51.120
which is, you know, if if it was if it was proof of stake, Binance would be significantly higher than that. Yeah. Imagine price. I I didn't even know they were they were a Bitcoin pull until
1529
01:54:51.420 --> 01:54:52.960
until Taproot, honestly.
1530
01:54:54.700 --> 01:54:56.320
I think it's relatively recent.
1531
01:54:57.955 --> 01:54:59.575
So, Anthony, me and you,
1532
01:55:00.275 --> 01:55:04.695
we kind of, like, flirted on Twitter about it. I called you out on the show a bunch of times.
1533
01:55:06.180 --> 01:55:13.480
You wanna talk about lightning pool and and the rates that they're offering and how that affects with, you know, fee market and whatnot?
1534
01:55:14.465 --> 01:55:15.105
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
1535
01:55:17.185 --> 01:55:20.465
I've been playing around for a little bit. I'm not, like, a super pro at it,
1536
01:55:21.105 --> 01:55:21.605
but
1537
01:55:22.145 --> 01:55:23.125
one of the things,
1538
01:55:26.220 --> 01:55:32.480
when when pull originally launched, and I've been watching the charts, there's a Twitter handle, I think it's just lightning pull,
1539
01:55:32.785 --> 01:55:33.525
an unofficial,
1540
01:55:34.705 --> 01:55:35.205
Twitter.
1541
01:55:35.745 --> 01:55:39.285
You know, we we we're seeing rates anywhere between, you know,
1542
01:55:39.985 --> 01:55:40.485
3%,
1543
01:55:41.265 --> 01:55:43.130
to all the way to, like, 20.
1544
01:55:43.510 --> 01:55:46.570
I think some extreme cases even even above that.
1545
01:55:47.910 --> 01:55:48.410
And,
1546
01:55:48.950 --> 01:55:50.570
you know, as of as of recently,
1547
01:55:51.635 --> 01:55:55.094
you know, I joined in and and I've got, like, a,
1548
01:55:57.555 --> 01:55:58.375
like, a
1549
01:55:58.980 --> 01:56:01.000
a few, like, 10 to 15%
1550
01:56:01.380 --> 01:56:06.200
rates, which, were pretty good. I I were I was able to lease channels for about that much.
1551
01:56:08.025 --> 01:56:09.805
What ended up happening to me,
1552
01:56:10.985 --> 01:56:13.245
was that we got into that situation
1553
01:56:13.705 --> 01:56:16.685
where, you know, we we were losing Hash rate in China,
1554
01:56:17.370 --> 01:56:18.989
and, you know, the difficulty
1555
01:56:19.290 --> 01:56:24.030
was just way too high to be able to support a transaction, so we got high fee rates.
1556
01:56:24.465 --> 01:56:27.445
And I ended up doing the math, and the
1557
01:56:27.905 --> 01:56:30.005
channels that I leased,
1558
01:56:30.865 --> 01:56:32.165
if I were to close,
1559
01:56:33.050 --> 01:56:42.965
because right now in the median pool, you you lease channels for 2 weeks total, which is kind of funny that it lines up with the difficulty adjustment. Right? So you could end up,
1560
01:56:43.665 --> 01:56:47.765
doing your, you know, cost basis and saying, okay. Cool. The transaction fees are just
1561
01:56:48.130 --> 01:56:49.830
are just, you know, you know, a
1562
01:56:50.450 --> 01:56:52.790
few sets per byte right now.
1563
01:56:53.730 --> 01:57:02.715
It's not gonna cost me that much to do an on chain transaction. So let me do my calculations to come out to okay. You know, a 6%
1564
01:57:03.415 --> 01:57:07.310
lease sounds good to me. And so you you you open up your lease, you sell them,
1565
01:57:07.869 --> 01:57:14.325
someone buys them, and then now the new difficult your 2 weeks are up, a new difficulty has has sprung,
1566
01:57:14.785 --> 01:57:18.405
and all of a sudden, now cost you a whole lot more to do,
1567
01:57:18.865 --> 01:57:22.990
to close your channel. Because right? So you've leased the channel, now it's time to close it. Otherwise,
1568
01:57:24.010 --> 01:57:29.470
that peer if you keep that channel open, that peer is essentially getting, you know, every day past 14,
1569
01:57:29.915 --> 01:57:31.614
they're essentially getting a free channel,
1570
01:57:31.995 --> 01:57:32.495
that
1571
01:57:32.875 --> 01:57:45.120
you, as the leaser, pay the transaction fee for. You are locking up the the funds with them. And to close out the channel, you are the 1 the leaser is the one to pay the closing transaction fee costs.
1572
01:57:48.155 --> 01:57:48.975
So in total,
1573
01:57:49.675 --> 01:57:54.255
there there are about 3 on chain transactions you have to do as a leaser. You you Brutal.
1574
01:57:54.969 --> 01:57:59.290
It sucks. It's terrible. They they say that they're gonna try to fix it so you can,
1575
01:58:01.210 --> 01:58:04.405
try to close into a Lightning Pool. So essentially,
1576
01:58:04.945 --> 01:58:06.645
you to to be a leaser,
1577
01:58:07.105 --> 01:58:14.699
you have to make an on chain transaction to a Lightning Pool account, which is basically a multi sig a 2 zero two multi sig with Lightning Labs,
1578
01:58:15.079 --> 01:58:16.619
that expires after
1579
01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:24.645
whatever you can set your own expiration date when you want it to expire. So if if Lightning Labs were to go away after a few weeks, you could recover your funds.
1580
01:58:25.744 --> 01:58:31.970
So it's a, 22 fall back to your own private key. So you you move funds into the pool account,
1581
01:58:32.670 --> 01:58:37.090
then when you sell a lease, and you can you can sell multiple leases with with
1582
01:58:37.825 --> 01:58:39.765
with your funds, you end up,
1583
01:58:40.305 --> 01:58:41.365
opening the channel,
1584
01:58:41.745 --> 01:58:48.620
and you pay the fees for that. And then you close the channel, and you pay the fees for that. And then you have to go back into pool,
1585
01:58:49.640 --> 01:58:51.980
and you pay the fees for that as well. So
1586
01:58:53.005 --> 01:58:58.145
each round of of selling a channel that you're going through, you're paying off 3 on chain transactions,
1587
01:58:58.605 --> 01:59:01.745
and it got to the situation where I couldn't close my channels,
1588
01:59:02.710 --> 01:59:11.690
that had expired that, you know, I I fulfilled my end of the bargain. I fulfilled my 2 week period, and I couldn't close my channels, or I would be I would be so negative.
1589
01:59:12.335 --> 01:59:14.995
You know, we were we were seeing what, like, 10 or $15,
1590
01:59:17.135 --> 01:59:23.500
on chain fees. I've got how many expense that was. Yeah. There is no way I was I was I was gonna do that. And
1591
01:59:24.520 --> 01:59:25.739
then when when I say
1592
01:59:26.040 --> 01:59:31.425
6 to 10% or whatever for a lease, what I mean is if that were annualized.
1593
01:59:32.445 --> 01:59:35.744
If I had that channel open What you mean is it's bullshit?
1594
01:59:37.250 --> 01:59:40.070
What I mean is yes. You're not actually
1595
01:59:41.570 --> 01:59:42.390
you're getting
1596
01:59:42.770 --> 01:59:43.270
6%
1597
01:59:44.130 --> 01:59:44.630
APR
1598
01:59:45.565 --> 01:59:46.945
for a 2 week period.
1599
01:59:47.725 --> 01:59:50.305
So whatever that comes down to, what, like, 0.12%
1600
01:59:51.805 --> 01:59:56.070
Why is it 2 weeks? 2 weeks seems way too short, like, aren't we supposed to lower our time preference?
1601
01:59:56.850 --> 01:59:57.350
Yeah.
1602
01:59:58.210 --> 02:00:00.310
Lightning pole, it's it's technically
1603
02:00:02.295 --> 02:00:05.594
Lightning Pool supports being able to do a variety of different,
1604
02:00:08.135 --> 02:00:08.955
lease times.
1605
02:00:09.335 --> 02:00:11.114
But in order to have
1606
02:00:12.550 --> 02:00:13.230
a more
1607
02:00:13.670 --> 02:00:14.810
a better auctioning,
1608
02:00:16.869 --> 02:00:18.489
I guess, what am I trying to say?
1609
02:00:20.315 --> 02:00:21.355
Have more people
1610
02:00:21.915 --> 02:00:23.215
a bigger order book
1611
02:00:23.755 --> 02:00:24.975
or more offers. Right?
1612
02:00:25.355 --> 02:00:27.614
Yeah. To to have more offers that match,
1613
02:00:28.270 --> 02:00:31.810
they make everyone do just 2 weeks. But as we start getting more offers,
1614
02:00:32.350 --> 02:00:35.170
as more people start using pull, buying and selling,
1615
02:00:35.525 --> 02:00:38.025
they're gonna open it up to to have more
1616
02:00:38.405 --> 02:00:39.605
variety of of different,
1617
02:00:40.965 --> 02:00:43.145
lease periods. So which would be good?
1618
02:00:43.520 --> 02:00:47.460
So this goes into a thing that I've been talking about a lot on the podcast,
1619
02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:48.500
is
1620
02:00:49.280 --> 02:00:50.179
this idea
1621
02:00:50.800 --> 02:00:52.980
of reputation. Right? So so
1622
02:00:54.065 --> 02:00:57.825
not only do you have these other aspects of lightning pool, but they're also,
1623
02:00:59.665 --> 02:01:07.400
right now, I guess, you can only lease channels if you have a certain boss score, which they're calling the balance of Satoshi score, but it was
1624
02:01:08.179 --> 02:01:12.295
Oh, you can me not to mention that it was made by Alex Bosworth, and it's his
1625
02:01:12.995 --> 02:01:19.975
it's his name. So by default, who whoever puts the bids or which is so when you're buying channels,
1626
02:01:20.770 --> 02:01:22.150
by default you are accepting
1627
02:01:23.570 --> 02:01:29.045
channels from or buying channels from the nodes in the tier 1, which is an obscure
1628
02:01:29.505 --> 02:01:32.804
ranking system. Part of it is like the BOS score probably,
1629
02:01:33.185 --> 02:01:33.685
but
1630
02:01:34.225 --> 02:01:35.605
I mean it's kind of
1631
02:01:35.985 --> 02:01:36.565
a quality
1632
02:01:37.670 --> 02:01:39.530
control of the liquidity
1633
02:01:39.830 --> 02:01:41.930
being sold. So I guess,
1634
02:01:43.510 --> 02:01:46.275
it it got released today to try and make it less
1635
02:01:55.679 --> 02:01:58.580
If you're watching this live, it's in the chat. If you click that,
1636
02:01:59.520 --> 02:02:01.540
this is our stacking sats node,
1637
02:02:02.695 --> 02:02:08.155
which I've tried my best to run Oh. A NICE Sovereign Tor routing node. It has $270,000
1638
02:02:08.935 --> 02:02:15.570
worth of capacity, and I just wanna let the attackers know that also includes remote capacity. That's not all the capacity that I have on my node,
1639
02:02:16.350 --> 02:02:18.610
and they're just destroying me. I'm unstable.
1640
02:02:19.185 --> 02:02:45.045
I have 0 hunt 0 I have a 158 peers, and 0 of them are good according to them. Well, that is just because it doesn't doesn't go through after it so once your uptime is is solved, which will be, like, within a week or or or 1, 2 weeks, you know, it depends. If you had, like, a downtime for a while, then it will get resolved after after the time. No. But I moved this node 3 weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, I moved this node to Nautle Cloud.
1641
02:02:45.500 --> 02:02:52.960
Yeah. So shout out to the Nautle team. Yeah. The Nautle team are sponsoring this node. They're hosting it on their own high uptime cloud servers.
1642
02:02:53.785 --> 02:03:06.540
I have 0 of a 158 of my peers are are considered good peers by them, and I'm an unstable node even though it's been around for 2 years. Like, that that seems bugged. That seems bugged. Yeah. But it it's it's probably
1643
02:03:07.000 --> 02:03:20.110
if it will be like, we can't know what their time limits, but if it's if it will be stable so, obviously, you had a downtime when you were moving. But if you were stable for, like, a month, you need to be kind of, you know, waiting for this. And then,
1644
02:03:20.730 --> 02:03:21.230
the
1645
02:03:21.530 --> 02:03:25.470
last option I noticed because I was after testing this thing as well. I mean,
1646
02:03:25.815 --> 02:03:29.275
I don't know anything about the background code because it's not,
1647
02:03:29.895 --> 02:03:32.074
published as far as I know. But
1648
02:03:33.255 --> 02:03:34.395
my It's not open?
1649
02:03:35.360 --> 02:03:36.980
I don't think so. Yeah.
1650
02:03:38.640 --> 02:03:49.844
But my, my notes have been, you know, up and down, and I could see that, you know, if I do an an update or I do a bit of a crash management, stuff like that, you know, then the uptime
1651
02:03:50.224 --> 02:03:51.205
does suffer,
1652
02:03:51.665 --> 02:03:53.205
obviously. And then
1653
02:03:53.920 --> 02:04:00.099
after a couple of weeks, it comes back up. And then if you if you have, like, a couple of well capitalized
1654
02:04:00.965 --> 02:04:03.705
peers who are actually all green in this
1655
02:04:04.165 --> 02:04:06.745
kind of list, then you will have
1656
02:04:07.285 --> 02:04:16.860
some good peers as well. If So, like, what do they want me to do? They they like, do I have to updates. Do I have to bend my knee to the Lightning Labs, or do I do I get rid of all a 158
1657
02:04:17.160 --> 02:04:30.370
peers I have and just, you know, close all my channels and start fresh? Like, what the fuck do they want me to do? For the uptime, you just need to wait, you know. It will be probably resolved, but you can always I mean, there is, like, a submit feedback here. Right? Please, sir. Click the link?
1658
02:04:31.150 --> 02:04:35.330
Yes. I mean, how how bad is that? They're, like, fucking doing us, man.
1659
02:04:37.215 --> 02:04:38.355
So this is
1660
02:04:38.895 --> 02:04:43.440
an interactive guide. Right? So it just makes these suggestions how you can how you can improve.
1661
02:04:43.920 --> 02:04:47.219
Well, it it's an it's an interactive guide, but it's also
1662
02:04:47.680 --> 02:04:50.100
it's also segregating him from a market.
1663
02:04:51.415 --> 02:04:52.235
Yeah. Like,
1664
02:04:53.735 --> 02:04:57.515
I I think something's fucked. To to have so I'm, like,
1665
02:04:58.055 --> 02:05:01.110
I'm not gonna submit too much information, but I have
1666
02:05:01.410 --> 02:05:04.550
between a dozen or 2 dozen channels. That's it.
1667
02:05:04.930 --> 02:05:07.110
All self funded. And I
1668
02:05:07.650 --> 02:05:09.910
and even during the Texas outages
1669
02:05:10.405 --> 02:05:16.105
where my node was down for for basically a week and a half, I didn't lose my spot in
1670
02:05:17.620 --> 02:05:25.880
in the BOS score. And and I'll just just to be clear, this is not the BOS score. This is a that's a separate thing. There might be a one that I think the ordering
1671
02:05:26.665 --> 02:05:27.885
is based on the Boscore.
1672
02:05:28.505 --> 02:05:29.405
Is it not?
1673
02:05:30.905 --> 02:05:36.400
I mean, we can we can check that. I have a link for the Boscore now. They have to be ranked at 424, so
1674
02:05:36.700 --> 02:05:41.440
as Paul pointed out, we only need 4 more rank spots to get the the nice 420 here.
1675
02:05:41.865 --> 02:05:48.125
So it's not the same rank as as in the BOS score. It is completely different. This node actually has a decent BOS score.
1676
02:05:48.665 --> 02:05:53.030
Yeah. My other node, which is a way better node than this node that's not public,
1677
02:05:53.570 --> 02:05:58.365
it does not have a good BOS score, and it's also tour only, and it has a very good job of mine.
1678
02:05:58.925 --> 02:06:03.265
So I'm I'm looking stacking stacking stats isn't on the BOS score right now.
1679
02:06:03.725 --> 02:06:16.990
It was before. It they they knocked me off. It's because I keep telling people that it's his last name, and so they removed me from the it's because I it's because we proposed the Odell score on the on the on the show. Now I'm now I'm blackballed.
1680
02:06:17.804 --> 02:06:28.710
See, there was a few days where I wasn't on the score, and and I thought I was, and I I tweeted at them, and and then within a few days, I was back on. I'm not saying that what happened, but that's what happened.
1681
02:06:29.090 --> 02:06:32.230
But, again, if you know, until that until the downtime
1682
02:06:32.610 --> 02:06:41.204
marker is or, like, uptime marker is red, you will be down from the BOS score as well. And once it gets trained, you know, whatever whatever is not finished the BOS list.
1683
02:06:41.585 --> 02:06:43.605
God. It hurts, doesn't it?
1684
02:06:44.930 --> 02:06:46.070
I feel censored.
1685
02:06:46.530 --> 02:06:52.630
This is like PayPal all over again. So as a, OpenHabs hinted at it earlier, but as just,
1686
02:06:53.330 --> 02:06:53.715
just
1687
02:06:54.275 --> 02:06:55.014
a disclaimer,
1688
02:06:56.435 --> 02:07:01.415
you can still be on Lightning Pool, but as a tier 0 node,
1689
02:07:02.310 --> 02:07:02.810
And
1690
02:07:03.510 --> 02:07:04.010
buyers,
1691
02:07:05.030 --> 02:07:07.530
have to opt in to accepting,
1692
02:07:09.030 --> 02:07:11.210
leases from tier 0 notes.
1693
02:07:12.025 --> 02:07:15.245
And I don't know if that happens very often or not.
1694
02:07:15.865 --> 02:07:25.050
Theoretically, I I don't know why it hasn't been done yet, but the lightning poll Twitter, you know, it'll tell you who buys or not who buys. It'll tell you when a lease was bought
1695
02:07:25.830 --> 02:07:27.290
and for what percentage.
1696
02:07:28.685 --> 02:07:30.705
But what it doesn't tell you is who bought
1697
02:07:31.645 --> 02:07:32.625
and who sold.
1698
02:07:33.565 --> 02:07:36.125
And I I think I don't know if you can tell
1699
02:07:36.640 --> 02:07:41.940
I don't think you can tell who bought and who sold, but you can tell the 2 peers that were in that.
1700
02:07:42.960 --> 02:07:48.395
Yeah. You just look it up. But I Yeah. Once the channel is confirmed, you just take that
1701
02:07:48.935 --> 02:07:53.195
txid, put it into one ml.com, and it will spit it out to peers.
1702
02:07:53.890 --> 02:07:57.909
Yeah. What what I don't know is if you could figure this out
1703
02:07:58.290 --> 02:07:58.870
very easily,
1704
02:07:59.250 --> 02:08:02.870
like you said, but I wanna know how many tier 0
1705
02:08:03.365 --> 02:08:24.025
leases are being bought, if if at all. It's possible that it's not really. I mean, there are not many matches at all. Yeah. There are not that many matches at all. Right? So And, occasionally, I see leases being bought and where it's like like, oh, cool. This channel was sold for for 300 satoshis. And I'm like, are you fucking serious? Unchained fees are $15
1706
02:08:24.325 --> 02:08:26.665
or whatever right now. Like, they paid $15,
1707
02:08:27.490 --> 02:08:29.430
and they got 300 sats,
1708
02:08:29.970 --> 02:08:32.150
out out of that, which will go away,
1709
02:08:32.530 --> 02:08:34.790
which is already gone before they even
1710
02:08:35.250 --> 02:08:36.470
as they open that channel
1711
02:08:37.575 --> 02:08:41.275
and spend that on chain transaction, that 300 sats is is in the negative.
1712
02:08:42.935 --> 02:08:46.955
Yeah. I mean, it it's it's only good to kind of put if you have
1713
02:08:47.920 --> 02:08:48.420
chance,
1714
02:08:49.120 --> 02:08:55.700
funds to deploy to the lightning network, then it's probably a good idea to kind of put in
1715
02:08:56.045 --> 02:09:00.305
put it where it is asked for or where it is needed. So
1716
02:09:00.685 --> 02:09:07.040
in the hope that it will generate some routing fees. And for this reason, I wouldn't even close it because,
1717
02:09:07.580 --> 02:09:08.380
you know, to
1718
02:09:09.020 --> 02:09:14.095
I mean, I never opened a lightning channel which I would only want to keep open for, like, 2 weeks.
1719
02:09:14.555 --> 02:09:18.255
I mean, unless it's like, you know, goes offline or or there is
1720
02:09:18.555 --> 02:09:19.855
some shenanigans,
1721
02:09:20.555 --> 02:09:21.055
but,
1722
02:09:22.780 --> 02:09:24.400
yes. So it's it's it's just
1723
02:09:25.180 --> 02:09:26.720
kind of a pointer where
1724
02:09:27.100 --> 02:09:28.320
channels could be opened.
1725
02:09:28.860 --> 02:09:31.280
That's how I look at it. It's not generating.
1726
02:09:32.385 --> 02:09:35.445
I mean, it did generate some income for me, but
1727
02:09:37.264 --> 02:09:40.405
I never never closed this channel. So again, that is
1728
02:09:42.690 --> 02:09:43.510
still coming,
1729
02:09:44.130 --> 02:09:44.870
that cost.
1730
02:09:45.410 --> 02:09:54.615
Yeah. Because when you when you close those channels, it will the fee will be taken from from you. Right? So at that point, you have to do a cost analysis. Do I think
1731
02:09:55.395 --> 02:09:59.415
keeping this channel open with this peer will get me routing funds,
1732
02:09:59.960 --> 02:10:04.260
or should I just close it? Plus, on top of that,
1733
02:10:04.600 --> 02:10:08.940
closing a 2 week channel, am I gonna get a negative score on the BOS score? You know?
1734
02:10:09.715 --> 02:10:15.255
Is that is that one of the metrics used? I know they said that one of the metrics used is if you close
1735
02:10:15.875 --> 02:10:18.055
during a high fee rate environment,
1736
02:10:19.040 --> 02:10:19.940
that's a negative,
1737
02:10:21.199 --> 02:10:25.460
score. Not a negative score. It hurts your score a little at least a little bit. So
1738
02:10:25.945 --> 02:10:28.445
at that point, why would I you're almost
1739
02:10:29.385 --> 02:10:33.005
joining a pool and then closing 2 weeks. I would think that just hurts your score.
1740
02:10:34.250 --> 02:10:38.410
Or this Which is another thing that just suck. Why are we why are we worried about scores?
1741
02:10:38.890 --> 02:10:40.030
It it's it
1742
02:10:41.265 --> 02:10:44.885
it sucks that to be part of the market, you're we're worried about these scores.
1743
02:10:45.825 --> 02:10:48.630
Yeah. I I do feel that the very different approach of,
1744
02:10:49.110 --> 02:10:52.889
the Sea Lightning team and this kind of dual funding channel
1745
02:10:53.550 --> 02:10:54.050
in
1746
02:10:54.710 --> 02:10:56.010
in initiative does
1747
02:10:56.455 --> 02:11:02.155
eat into this model a lot. And, I mean, I I I will be very curious to see that who
1748
02:11:03.574 --> 02:11:04.635
probably if
1749
02:11:04.935 --> 02:11:09.250
they are, you you know, if it's easy or, like, feasible for them to technically,
1750
02:11:10.030 --> 02:11:18.485
implement it, then they would be probably much quicker to do do a funding channel do a funding channels than than L and T will be.
1751
02:11:19.264 --> 02:11:20.965
We'll see how it goes. I'm very curious
1752
02:11:22.929 --> 02:11:25.349
about this. Because obviously they are, you know,
1753
02:11:26.929 --> 02:11:27.670
for the
1754
02:11:28.705 --> 02:11:31.045
profit making services, profit generating services.
1755
02:11:31.905 --> 02:11:34.005
And also pool does take, like,
1756
02:11:35.025 --> 02:11:36.570
what is it, a 10 bip or
1757
02:11:37.770 --> 02:11:38.429
a 1,000
1758
02:11:39.210 --> 02:11:40.670
In fairness. Cents per 1,000?
1759
02:11:41.449 --> 02:11:43.150
It it can go up to 25%
1760
02:11:45.210 --> 02:11:49.045
of what you're selling. So, like, if I'm if I'm doing a 10 lease channel
1761
02:11:49.585 --> 02:11:52.405
and it's currently set at lightning pole takes 25%
1762
02:11:53.185 --> 02:11:55.925
off of that, then I'm essentially just getting 8%,
1763
02:11:56.450 --> 02:11:57.670
or or sorry, 7.5%.
1764
02:11:58.930 --> 02:12:00.710
And and Lightning Labs takes
1765
02:12:01.090 --> 02:12:01.750
the other
1766
02:12:02.690 --> 02:12:11.155
25%. Isn't isn't they have the fixed fee of of a 1,000 1,000 per million? Like, a 1,000 sets per million? So, basically, a 1,000 PPM. Varies, I think.
1767
02:12:11.615 --> 02:12:16.500
Is it? Okay. I mean Mhmm. When I last looked at it, it wasn't, but then it might could have changed.
1768
02:12:18.080 --> 02:12:18.580
Anyway,
1769
02:12:18.960 --> 02:12:20.020
they do a significant
1770
02:12:21.735 --> 02:12:27.835
cut on this for sure. Yeah. What what I do like about pull, though, is that at least it
1771
02:12:28.710 --> 02:12:32.170
it keeps some accountability to the people that are selling channels
1772
02:12:32.710 --> 02:12:39.445
through, like, other means. So, like, Bitrefill store, they sell channels. Alan Big sells channels on their own. They have for a while.
1773
02:12:39.985 --> 02:12:42.165
Even Alex Bosworth, he sells channels
1774
02:12:42.705 --> 02:12:43.445
on y'alls.
1775
02:12:44.440 --> 02:12:51.900
It at least holds some kind of accountability metric and some sort it's not a completely free market because not everyone can participate
1776
02:12:52.280 --> 02:12:53.115
or at least
1777
02:12:54.155 --> 02:12:57.055
participate to the fullest, at least at a default level,
1778
02:12:57.835 --> 02:12:59.295
but at least has some
1779
02:13:00.370 --> 02:13:01.830
accountability, some marketplace.
1780
02:13:02.610 --> 02:13:04.469
And what we've seen is that,
1781
02:13:05.489 --> 02:13:09.670
over the last few weeks, it has sort of trended to 6%.
1782
02:13:11.005 --> 02:13:11.905
So we're seeing
1783
02:13:12.525 --> 02:13:13.824
those kind of rates currently.
1784
02:13:14.605 --> 02:13:26.159
I always look at lightning the lightning polls Twitter account every every now and then to kinda see what it's at. And right now, it's about 6%. And honestly, I have some orders, and I'm like, I'm not sorry, I'm not going down to 6%
1785
02:13:26.539 --> 02:13:34.625
and having to pay all these on chain fees or or whatever. So I have some really high fee and some really high rate and someone's gonna pay for it. Great. Otherwise,
1786
02:13:35.565 --> 02:13:38.145
you know, the the shitty thing is my account
1787
02:13:38.540 --> 02:13:43.679
with with with Lightning Labs expires in in 3 weeks. So at at the end of 3 weeks, I have
1788
02:13:44.059 --> 02:13:46.719
to do more on chain transactions if I don't sell
1789
02:13:47.285 --> 02:13:48.985
sell these sell these leases.
1790
02:13:49.445 --> 02:13:52.265
It's just on chain transaction after on chain transaction.
1791
02:13:53.605 --> 02:13:54.345
It sucks.
1792
02:13:54.725 --> 02:13:55.865
I I do agree.
1793
02:13:56.620 --> 02:13:57.280
See Lightning's,
1794
02:13:58.060 --> 02:14:00.640
implementation of doing dual funding will be great,
1795
02:14:02.620 --> 02:14:05.200
and and hopefully alleviate some of that.
1796
02:14:05.895 --> 02:14:09.435
Yeah. And and and you were right, Edward. Just checking on the Lighting Labs,
1797
02:14:09.975 --> 02:14:18.770
documentation, loop doc poor documentation that the basic the fees will range from 5 to 25 basis points per user. So it's 500 to 2,500
1798
02:14:19.550 --> 02:14:20.210
per 1,000,000
1799
02:14:21.085 --> 02:14:22.305
depending on the liquidity
1800
02:14:22.685 --> 02:14:23.185
purchased.
1801
02:14:25.165 --> 02:14:30.225
I wonder if it's lower if it is it higher if it's the the it's a low liquidity or is it,
1802
02:14:31.470 --> 02:14:35.170
yeah, it's a Pretty good question. And and is it higher if you go
1803
02:14:36.350 --> 02:14:37.950
for a high rate yourself? Or
1804
02:14:39.085 --> 02:14:42.224
Yeah. Or is it lower if you're if you're only selling for 3%,
1805
02:14:42.844 --> 02:14:44.465
does does do they still take
1806
02:14:45.244 --> 02:14:51.929
the same basis points? So it's a good question. From both. It it is from both sides. Right? So also the seller and the,
1807
02:14:52.310 --> 02:14:53.530
buyer pays as well.
1808
02:14:54.389 --> 02:14:55.449
Oh, wow. Okay.
1809
02:14:56.994 --> 02:14:58.215
Well, good for them.
1810
02:14:59.315 --> 02:15:01.895
Well So I mean It's it's a good it's a product.
1811
02:15:02.275 --> 02:15:03.574
It yeah. Definitely.
1812
02:15:04.520 --> 02:15:09.739
I have a couple of things to add here. I mean, first of all, I mean, obviously, lightning pool is very new, so,
1813
02:15:10.199 --> 02:15:11.580
we should cut them some credit.
1814
02:15:12.120 --> 02:15:13.500
Of course. Cut them some slack.
1815
02:15:13.925 --> 02:15:19.784
It's it's it's an awesome service. You know? Yes. I do really like it, but it's it's in a experimental phase, it feels.
1816
02:15:21.820 --> 02:15:24.000
First off around definitely. Which is awful.
1817
02:15:24.380 --> 02:15:24.860
So
1818
02:15:25.260 --> 02:15:27.840
First off, I just became aware that,
1819
02:15:29.735 --> 02:15:33.835
to us, when we see the overlay chat is working as designed,
1820
02:15:34.695 --> 02:15:38.474
but going out to the different streaming services, if you were watching this live,
1821
02:15:39.140 --> 02:15:42.200
for whatever reason, Restream is fucking up. So,
1822
02:15:42.820 --> 02:15:45.160
you guys don't see the chat from the other,
1823
02:15:45.860 --> 02:15:47.960
streaming services on your screen.
1824
02:15:48.775 --> 02:15:56.155
I'm gonna leave it as it is because I'm pretty sure once I download this video after the fact, it will still keep the overlay chat.
1825
02:15:57.510 --> 02:16:09.035
So that's why it looks like on the on the right side of your screen just, like, empty. It's really filled with chat for us, and I it's just you know, we're we're we're beholden to the centralized service that provides
1826
02:16:11.415 --> 02:16:15.275
this streaming capability to us, so that's why it is empty on your screen.
1827
02:16:16.880 --> 02:16:24.020
As far as as far as lightning pool goes, I mean, I think it goes further than that. I think it's really hard
1828
02:16:24.555 --> 02:16:27.375
for a Lightning node operator to
1829
02:16:31.195 --> 02:16:36.620
comprehend what their future on chain fee burden is. It's like it's a very difficult thing to,
1830
02:16:38.040 --> 02:16:38.540
calculate
1831
02:16:39.240 --> 02:16:42.755
or or even just account for in your head. Like, you don't have to calculate it perfectly,
1832
02:16:44.835 --> 02:16:45.895
count in my head
1833
02:16:46.354 --> 02:16:50.854
what my future on chain fee burden is gonna be or what my on chain fee burden is in general,
1834
02:16:52.819 --> 02:16:54.920
when I don't know what the fees are gonna be in the future.
1835
02:16:55.380 --> 02:17:03.255
And it's it's something that I think we're just gonna constantly be up against. It's it's just there's, there's no real easy way to,
1836
02:17:04.835 --> 02:17:06.694
conceptualize that. Would you guys agree?
1837
02:17:07.240 --> 02:17:10.380
Yeah. It could be almost like a prediction market as well.
1838
02:17:12.440 --> 02:17:14.300
Yeah. I I kinda got burned.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:11 PM
Duration: 12090.331
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.660
2
00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.785
You pointed out in in a recent speech that you think we've crossed the Rubicon.
3
00:00:10.485 --> 00:00:15.865
Are are you comfortable saying what what you said there that that that for the first time in your career, you think we lose
4
00:00:16.244 --> 00:00:17.225
reserve status
5
00:00:17.910 --> 00:00:18.730
at some point?
6
00:00:19.990 --> 00:00:24.650
7
00:00:25.029 --> 00:00:26.020
But yeah.
8
00:00:26.815 --> 00:00:27.475
You said
9
00:00:28.015 --> 00:00:29.475
that to some extent,
10
00:00:30.095 --> 00:00:32.515
the Fed is enabling the fiscal transfers.
11
00:00:33.295 --> 00:00:38.450
It's not to some extent. They couldn't be doing this without the Fed. The Fed is monetizing their activity.
12
00:00:38.829 --> 00:00:42.930
I mentioned all the QE after vaccine confirmation and retail sales.
13
00:00:43.485 --> 00:00:44.225
We've had 850,000,000,000
14
00:00:45.485 --> 00:00:46.465
of direct transfers.
15
00:00:47.725 --> 00:00:48.225
575,000,000,000
16
00:00:49.645 --> 00:00:51.905
of them came after retail sales
17
00:00:52.400 --> 00:00:54.020
were above trend. 575
18
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:55.300
of the 850,000,000,000.
19
00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.540
I'm old enough to remember the the bond market vigilantes.
20
00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:07.065
I used to be one of them. Without the Fed buying, I don't know what the exact number is. I think it's 60% of all the debt issued
21
00:01:07.765 --> 00:01:11.065
that the bond markets would be totally rejecting this.
22
00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:13.360
So they are enabling
23
00:01:14.220 --> 00:01:18.320
this massive expansion in fiscal policy. And the problem is
24
00:01:18.865 --> 00:01:20.804
if you end up getting inflation,
25
00:01:21.104 --> 00:01:21.844
and frankly,
26
00:01:22.625 --> 00:01:23.765
even if you don't,
27
00:01:24.145 --> 00:01:26.405
the debt is gonna be so big.
28
00:01:26.950 --> 00:01:34.170
You remember I did my entitlement talks 8 or 9 years ago. That's all happened except for one thing, the interest rate level.
29
00:01:34.585 --> 00:01:37.645
So we're right now in the crux of when the demographic
30
00:01:38.345 --> 00:01:40.205
when the baby boomers accelerate
31
00:01:41.065 --> 00:01:45.310
in terms of of getting Medicare, Medicaid, social security, that stuff.
32
00:01:45.689 --> 00:01:48.429
Right as we're doing that, we just put 6,000,000,000,000
33
00:01:48.729 --> 00:01:58.075
of new debt on. Again, all enabled by the fed. These guys cannot be doing it. Bond rates would go to a prohibitive level. So my my issue here is
34
00:01:58.440 --> 00:01:59.260
in the future,
35
00:02:00.360 --> 00:02:01.659
as we go forward,
36
00:02:03.240 --> 00:02:06.140
if you look at do you have chart 5 up there?
37
00:02:06.585 --> 00:02:09.565
38
00:02:11.465 --> 00:02:15.005
39
00:02:15.320 --> 00:02:17.020
Federal spending is percent of GDP.
40
00:02:17.880 --> 00:02:20.780
This is the CBO. This is not me.
41
00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:22.780
Okay? And they're saying
42
00:02:23.445 --> 00:02:25.065
if 10 years go to 4.9%,
43
00:02:25.765 --> 00:02:27.705
which is their normalized projection,
44
00:02:28.805 --> 00:02:30.585
the interest expense alone
45
00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:33.650
will be close to 30% of GDP
46
00:02:34.350 --> 00:02:37.970
every year. That's basically what we just spent on the COVID emergency
47
00:02:38.510 --> 00:02:39.650
in the last year.
48
00:02:40.445 --> 00:02:41.745
There is no way
49
00:02:42.205 --> 00:02:52.670
we can afford to have 30% of all government outlays be be toward interest expense. So what will happen is the Fed will have to monetize that. When they monetize it,
50
00:02:53.530 --> 00:02:54.190
I believe
51
00:02:54.605 --> 00:02:59.905
it'll have horrible implications for the dollar. And that's why I said in that speech,
52
00:03:00.284 --> 00:03:06.550
yes, that I think it's more likely than not within 15 years we lose reserve currency status.
53
00:03:45.690 --> 00:03:47.630
54
00:03:47.975 --> 00:03:50.555
It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another
55
00:03:50.855 --> 00:03:52.075
Citadel dispatch.
56
00:03:52.775 --> 00:03:57.280
It's been oh, I heard another pop. Love to hear that. There's a vehicle pop.
57
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:02.660
Let's fucking go. It's been 21 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row with all y'all.
58
00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:07.565
How is that? That is that is insane to me. That is crazy. I fucking love it.
59
00:04:07.865 --> 00:04:11.165
21 straight. This is Citadel Dispatch episode 21,
60
00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:16.400
the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
61
00:04:17.340 --> 00:04:24.794
To all of the freaks coming in through our audio streams, That was legendary investor Stanley Drunkenmiller with our boy Joe Kernan on CNBC,
62
00:04:26.215 --> 00:04:27.995
calling for the end of
63
00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:30.820
the reserve status for the US dollar,
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and not sounding like a crazy person on mainstream financial television.
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That's pretty fucking ridiculous to me, and I feel like that is not quite priced in. But,
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there's plenty of people on Bitcoin Twitter that would probably disagree with me on that one.
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I want to do a quick shout out to all the ride or dive freaks who come in every week for this live chat.
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You guys make the show what it is.
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Without you, it, you know, it it just it wouldn't happen. So I I appreciate all y'all, and I want you to, be active as always in the live chat,
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so we can work off of you. And then, of course, I just wanna do another quick shout out to all the freaks
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that have been supporting the show,
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through the various methods, whether that's podcasting 2.0, streaming stats,
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or Sphinx tribe, Citadel dispatch,
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going to citadel dispatch.com,
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or the handy little lnurl
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that we have at the bottom left hand corner of the video streams.
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As always, this video stream is being going is going out to Twitch, Twitter, and YouTube.
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Now we also have it going out to bitcoin tv.com.
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If you use it over there, you can participate in the chat, but you do get the benefit of going through sovereign servers rather than corporate servers.
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With all that said,
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I wanna do I wanna thank our 2 guests here today for joining us. We have Open Arms, return guest. You guys all know him,
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Good friend,
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who just you know, he one of my favorite parts about Open Arms is after almost every episode,
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he sends me a breakdown of,
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things that either I got wrong or the guest got wrong. So I appreciate that Open Arms.
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Not every not every episode of this.
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Thank you very much. And and we have Anthony Ronning,
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who
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is a ride or die freak himself. I'm pretty sure he's been in this live chat almost all of the 21 episodes,
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and he's an independent software engineer. And this week, he released
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a great rundown of
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Lightning Privacy
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and
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the nuances of it and the shortcomings
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and the future, and we're gonna be going all into that. How's it going, Anthony?
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No. It's an honor, to be on. Thanks for having me. Long time listener, first time guest.
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Yeah. I didn't even realize it was the 21st episode. That's crazy.
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Yeah. No. I'm excited to dive into the topic. It's,
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it's been a very interesting month, researching it myself.
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We started off the show with varied topics, but I think if you broke down the 21 episodes,
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most of them are about lightning and privacy.
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So I feel like this is kind of a culmination episode in a lot of ways.
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So let's start off with this post. I mean, I don't know how we wanna go about it.
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The link, if to the freaks that are not aware,
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is on the bottom of the screen. A bytesjourney.com/lightningdash
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privacy.
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It's a great post. If you haven't read it yet, consider going and reading it after the show.
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So where do you where do you guys wanna start on this? Do you guys have, you know
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maybe as as part of a inspiration of of why I wanted to write it. I'm
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I've been playing around with lightning for quite a while and kinda got serious,
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with my own lightning note about, you know, 6 or 7 months ago with, my raspi plits.
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Love the thing. Shout out to OpenNoms
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and the team there.
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And, you know, one of the things I I
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I never felt comfortable with was, like, sharing my node identity with people, because it, you know, has my all my UTXOs and,
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you know, invoice and stuff. So I think, like, a large part of the inspiration was just trying to figure out myself, like, okay, how would if I were to restart and get get a brand new node, how should I go about,
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you know, trying to achieve privacy on the Lightning Network? And everyone's kinda default has been, yeah. Yeah. Lightning is private.
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And it's kind of funny. Edward Snowden even, this weekend, you know, called out and and called lightning shenanigans, which I think that was maybe a misspoke,
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for the most part, an overreaction maybe. But, yeah, I think, you know, it's not
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just hand wavy private. And I think that's one of the main, you know, things I wanted to get out of the article is that there's, you know, there's always nuance, but there's tons of nuance here.
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And, you know, I'm I'm happy to dive into it anyway, but, one of the main things is just there's there's a lot of ways to go about it.
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To try to achieve privacy,
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you know, from setting up your node to funding it, opening channels,
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even closing channels, and what you do with the outputs from there, and,
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even sending payments and and the types of things that, you know, can be revealed as you send payments across the network.
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Yeah. Now it's it's a big topic, so I'm happy to, you know, start the computation off anyway.
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if you hear anyone ever hand waving things
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and telling you that you have absolute perfect privacy
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and not explaining any kind of trade offs or nuances,
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They're probably acting in bad faith, or they don't know better. But either way, you shouldn't be
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you should be extra skeptical of anything that comes out in that direction.
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So, I mean, yeah, let's so let's jump in here. I mean, one of my concerns about lightning
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or
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I I guess, let's start with the positive. The positive is
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pure the pure positive of Lightning is that with Bitcoin,
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we have all of our transactions
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on a public ledger
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that we expect to last forever. And when I mean forever, I mean forever, ever. Right? Like, this thing is gonna last for a long fucking time.
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It's designed to be extremely robust,
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and that record of all your transactions will always be there.
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So from a a a pure
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over like, a a big picture kind of point of view,
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Lightning is a strict improvement over that
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because your transactions aren't stored on this thing.
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For a lot of the things that we're gonna talk about here for this post,
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it involves an active attacker, an attacker who is, you know, constantly surveilling the lightning network
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and recording that data for themselves forever. Right? They're they're they're actually doing active surveillance.
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With
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with the Bitcoin main chain,
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what we what we see happen a lot is an attacker can come in after the fact. They can come in 4 years later, 5 years later, and they can look at all that historical data and use it against you.
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Would you say that's a fair,
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like, entry overview here?
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That and that's a really good distinction too.
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Pretty much 90, 95% of the article is,
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you know, what an active attacker could do. So yeah.
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real time surveillance
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versus
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what information is out in the open forever on the blockchain. So it is a huge difference.
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And, I mean, the article does go into a lot of detail and and and it's it's beautiful work,
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but also it shouldn't discourage people
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of using lightning. Right? But the only thing is it doesn't replace
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the on chain privacy. It
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can be built on top of that.
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But, yeah, there's lots of details. That's good. So,
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I don't even know where to start. So I I
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I,
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we could go we could just scroll through the article, but I feel like that's boring way of doing it.
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Why don't we why don't we start
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from the basis of this this show this show this this
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whatever this thing is, this show has
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a mainstay of it has been actionable Bitcoin discussion, like, things that Bitcoiners today can use. Not
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you know, we'll definitely go into the part of the post where you talk about the things that are happening in the future,
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that we can look forward to, and that and that would be massive improvements here for privacy.
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But what can Bitcoiners do today? I feel like a good way to start is, okay.
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I'm Anthony, or I'm Open Arms, or,
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and and I want to use Lightning in a private way in a in the in a the most private way,
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or a more private way or good enough private way? How do I go about that? What what should I be doing? What should my process be?
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at home, you know, if you wanna open
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very bottom, I kinda lay out the bullet points of, like, okay, if you skip the whole entire, like, 20 minute, 25 minute read, go to the very bottom. There's, you know, a bunch of different bullet points. I I like to separate it out from, like, senders versus receivers,
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because senders, you know, have
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tremendous privacy,
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gains over receivers on the Lightning Network. Right. With with receivers, you have to create the invoice.
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You have to basically let the sender know how to pay you. Right?
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And and by doing that, you send the invoice. You if you have private channels, you reveal your private channels to them.
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And, you know, one of the unfortunate things about,
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the Lightning Network that I learned is that the channel IDs
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that make up channels, whether if it's public or private,
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is actually derived from the UTXO information. So,
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it's it's, you know, the first number is the block number. The second number is the transaction height where the transaction sits in the block. And then the last number is the actual output, the UTXO of that transaction. So every single channel has a UTXO that you lock up.
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So whether if it's a private channel or public channel, if if you're if you're trying to hide your private channel UTXOs,
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and then you create an invoice and give that to, you know, anyone or a sender or whatever. You're trusting them basically with the knowledge that you own or you could own that UTXO.
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The Lightning Network's interesting because you you can't actually
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tell just by looking at a channel, you know, which peer in that channel owned it. If I have a channel with you, Matt,
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and, you know, me and you, we know who funded it. You know, maybe it was me that initiated the channel, maybe it was you.
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But to outsiders, they have no idea
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which one actually opened the channel, except if they actually start going through chain analysis and start analyzing,
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you know, change output addresses and and things like that to try to,
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try to reveal that. So, like, if I open a private channel with you
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and then I we close out that channel and I used to change or even if we didn't close out the channel, I used to change to open up a new public channel then, you know,
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that's kind of, you know, revealing information.
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Maybe both people funded the channel.
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You know, you can have multiple inputs
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into a channel and and you don't even know unless, you know, of course, again, you do chain analysis or with dual funded channels, an active attacker could try to initiate
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a, you know, dual funded channel request with you and then back out midway, and they could learn your UTXO
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through that process. So if
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you opened a new channel yeah. Exactly. You you're basically snooping,
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and trying to reveal get them to reveal their UTXO.
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Oh, go ahead, open ups. Yes. I just like to comment on this that,
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it's already
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like people getting focused of
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just funding a channel with or like a nerd with 1 UTXO,
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and it is
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absolutely correct as you said that if you use
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lightning for privacy and you use
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you just have have one private channel,
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and for that it makes sense to use only one UTXO.
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But if you are using a public one,
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a public channel and you are planning to
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open other public channels, that it doesn't really matter if you
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do reuse the change because it's public and tied to the node ID anyway.
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So it's it's kind of a thing which you need to decide how would you how would you want to go about this.
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Do you only want to have like a pay paying node which you will only use
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to pay invoices and, you know, close the channel when once emptied and just, you know, use one UTXO to fund that and throw it away afterwards. I mean, throw throw away the,
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node ID afterwards and don't use it.
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Or or you would just start out building up a lightning node and have one public channel and then have another one at at etcetera.
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so so there's there's something interesting here, sort of breakdown.
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So with receiver,
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what people don't realize is how much information is in that in that invoice that you post.
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And a perfect example was when the lightning torch is going around.
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It was a very exciting time.
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I got called out because I used
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a BlueWallet, a custodial wallet, which is supposed to be against my ethos,
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to receive
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my
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lightning torch.
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And then I sent it out through my sovereign node, because I thought it was an important
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task to send it out through a sovereign node, especially since I sent it to Jack Dorsey who also received on his sovereign node. And people called me out, and they said, Matt, we, you know, we caught you doing this, yada yada yada. And the reason I did it was because I didn't wanna docks
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my my pub key
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out to the whole world. And at that point, we didn't even have,
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you know, Tor as the default or whatnot.
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So people were doxing their IP addresses, and they're just posting these invoices on Twitter. And, you know, Twitter is not gonna last as long as the Bitcoin ledger, but people should assume that anything they post on these public forums
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is couvered up and stored by, you know, corporate surveillance companies and state surveillance companies and ad companies and all this different shit.
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So they should kind of operate under that same assumption.
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So so a a a key thing that I'd like to teach people is if you wanna learn what's in your invoice, go to lightningdecoder.com.
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If you go to lightningdecoder
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dotcom and, obviously, you know, you're kind of doxing your invoice to them if you put it in, but it could be an invoice that someone's paying you. It'll show you everything
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that is in that invoice. It'll break it down for you.
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And, you know, a a big thing there is the
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if if you have private channels, it'll show private channel routing hints in there,
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because that's the only way a payer knows about the private channels. But more importantly,
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it shows your public key. And if and you have that public key, you can go on these lightning explorers like 1ml.com
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or Obaso,
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and it'll it'll show
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their public capacity, all their public channels,
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and it'll show their IP address if they're not running through Tor. And if if you have that IP address, you're able to
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determine
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an imprecise location,
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like, down to the town level, but a more sophisticated attacker might be able to figure out exactly who you are because most people's IP addresses are KYC'd.
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So
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with all that said, the actionable information there is the the the number one thing you should do is run your node through Tor. Unfortunately, all these major node packages now basically just default to it.
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So if you're running like a Raspberry Blitz,
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or a Nodl, or a Ronin Dojo oh, this one has doesn't have Lending, or Umbrel,
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or MyNode, it all runs through Tor automatically,
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which I think is a big deal to say.
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with public channels,
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00:21:36.765 --> 00:21:38.865
like a routing node running in your home
284
00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:42.519
with your home public IP, it's like,
285
00:21:43.080 --> 00:21:45.260
gluing your money out in the window.
286
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.460
And you can be surprised if people are, you know,
287
00:21:48.985 --> 00:21:49.804
breaking it.
288
00:21:50.585 --> 00:21:58.524
289
00:21:58.889 --> 00:22:01.149
because you have these large public companies,
290
00:22:02.649 --> 00:22:07.070
that are running these large routing nodes through Clearnet because they're completely fine,
291
00:22:07.455 --> 00:22:10.755
you know, with running it on a VPS and and, you know,
292
00:22:11.615 --> 00:22:15.395
you know, dot they they're they're completely KYC regulated companies anyway.
293
00:22:16.070 --> 00:22:23.850
And they obviously have better uptime and connections than if you're running, like, a sovereign node through Tor. We saw when the Tor DDOS attacks were happening,
294
00:22:24.475 --> 00:22:27.455
that, like, Tor nodes were going down left and right. Right?
295
00:22:27.915 --> 00:22:29.775
So there's a So, actually,
296
00:22:30.235 --> 00:22:34.950
297
00:22:35.570 --> 00:22:37.110
routing payments through
298
00:22:38.105 --> 00:22:41.645
through that downtime, that tore downtime. I think it only really affected,
299
00:22:42.585 --> 00:22:45.065
a new connection. So, like, if I had restarted my node
300
00:22:45.785 --> 00:22:46.285
exactly.
301
00:22:46.889 --> 00:22:48.750
I would have had an issue there. But,
302
00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:54.429
so starting a new connection, starting a new channel, that wasn't possible during the tour down times. But,
303
00:22:55.245 --> 00:23:06.640
well, since I already had my, you know, raspy blitz just always running, it actually stayed up during that downtime. I was kinda surprised. When we also have to rely on exit nodes though to connect to the clear the greater Clearnet network.
304
00:23:07.260 --> 00:23:07.760
305
00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:17.495
Yeah. So there's, like, there's there was 2 attacks that were happening at the same time. Right? There's the exit nodes attack, and then there's there's actually a DDOS within the Onion network.
306
00:23:18.470 --> 00:23:20.150
307
00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:21.929
Tor nodes is is
308
00:23:22.550 --> 00:23:29.434
IP nodes can't unless they're running both IP and Tor, which which you can do, IP nodes can't start a connection with you.
309
00:23:29.895 --> 00:23:31.835
You have to be the initiator. So
310
00:23:32.375 --> 00:23:33.434
even if you wanted,
311
00:23:33.735 --> 00:23:39.490
one thing you could do, like if have a friend that's running their IP node, first of all, slap your friend and tell them to get a Tor only node.
312
00:23:39.950 --> 00:23:47.285
But second of all, if they wanted to open channel with you, you can at least start a connection with them, a peer to peer connection with them, and then they can open the channel with you,
313
00:23:47.665 --> 00:23:50.545
if if you're Tor only. But, yeah, another option
314
00:23:51.110 --> 00:23:56.330
315
00:23:56.950 --> 00:23:59.130
our our public TFTC node,
316
00:23:59.485 --> 00:24:05.425
to Tor only, it, like, it just forced all the freaks because they weren't able I wouldn't let them connect unless they set up Tor on their node.
317
00:24:06.525 --> 00:24:07.025
318
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:15.180
Yeah. The there is a, like, a hack there if you are if you can run Tor even if you're not putting your LND behind it. Even if you have, like,
319
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.985
a a a Tor browser open, you can use that proxy to connect
320
00:24:20.924 --> 00:24:21.424
to
321
00:24:21.885 --> 00:24:26.520
the Tor network. So you could actually connect if you, you know, put a couple of minutes in it.
322
00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:33.480
But, there is no point of that should go behind Tor anyway and should be but what is your Tor address
323
00:24:33.785 --> 00:24:38.045
So the the peers who are behind Tor can connect directly without leaving the Tor network.
324
00:24:38.985 --> 00:24:42.685
325
00:24:44.090 --> 00:24:48.030
did you, like, start a new node, or did you just kinda just switch the IPs?
326
00:24:48.410 --> 00:24:55.635
327
00:24:56.815 --> 00:25:00.035
Well, first, I made a joke that the route node was stolen,
328
00:25:01.429 --> 00:25:07.130
which I but hilariously, like, you'd you'd think it was really obvious, but all the, like,
329
00:25:07.515 --> 00:25:12.415
b cashers and all the haters, like, all, like, just believed it point blank and just, like, used it as FUD,
330
00:25:12.795 --> 00:25:18.269
when I tweeted out that the node was stolen. But I said the node was stolen, and the the thief put it behind Tor.
331
00:25:18.889 --> 00:25:26.190
So I still had the IP address attached to it. And still to this day, if you look up the public key, you can see that old IP address.
332
00:25:27.535 --> 00:25:33.795
Then I had to trick my ISP into giving me a new IP address, so I had a non doxed IP address afterwards.
333
00:25:34.890 --> 00:25:35.870
And then I moved.
334
00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:37.790
Yeah. But I I
335
00:25:38.090 --> 00:25:40.110
I kept the I kept the same
336
00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:46.554
I kept the same node because we had all of our channels open already. So when, like, you're when when you're talking about,
337
00:25:47.815 --> 00:25:50.475
the potential of us going into a high fee environment,
338
00:25:52.110 --> 00:25:54.610
you know, you're talking about a situation where
339
00:25:55.550 --> 00:25:58.130
where you don't wanna hit the chain that often.
340
00:25:58.435 --> 00:25:58.935
Right?
341
00:25:59.555 --> 00:26:01.095
So, you know, it's really important
342
00:26:02.035 --> 00:26:07.735
that that node I still have that node up, but it's really important that we have the freaks, that we have Sovereign Bitcoiners
343
00:26:08.950 --> 00:26:18.945
setting up Sovereign routing nodes, small Sovereign routing nodes that they're running in hardware at at their own, you know, that they control, whether that's a home or office or something like that,
344
00:26:19.725 --> 00:26:23.585
for the long term because you don't wanna you don't wanna have to hit the chain in the future.
345
00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:28.240
And, of course, we wanna build our reputation, you know, on the the BOS scores or whatever,
346
00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:30.880
and we'll get into that. But
347
00:26:31.825 --> 00:26:37.525
so so when you're doing that, you have to be thinking into you have to be thinking to the future. A mistake you make,
348
00:26:38.304 --> 00:26:38.804
today
349
00:26:39.250 --> 00:26:42.790
and you you end up revealing some if you send 1 so
350
00:26:43.890 --> 00:26:48.045
so so let's jump into it. So so one of the the the main conclusions of the piece
351
00:26:49.885 --> 00:26:52.545
that I think is really important is that the most of the freaks understand
352
00:26:53.565 --> 00:26:54.065
why
353
00:26:57.890 --> 00:27:03.270
why you don't wanna combine UTXOs. When you combine UTXOs, you're linking them on chain, common ownership.
354
00:27:04.955 --> 00:27:07.534
When when you fund when you fund a node,
355
00:27:08.154 --> 00:27:17.760
especially a long term routing node that's gonna have many channels, and that's gonna have many UTXOs funding it, you should assume that all those UTXOs are linked together. You should assume that they're consolidated
356
00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:18.640
together.
357
00:27:19.100 --> 00:27:22.400
They're not actually consolidated together as much as a regular consolidation
358
00:27:22.945 --> 00:27:33.990
transaction is, but you should just assume that's the case as far as an attacker goes. So if you fund your lightning node with 1 non coin join UTXO, that's k y c'd or something,
359
00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:40.870
you basically have linked that node to your KYC information. Whoever has that KYC information could
360
00:27:41.175 --> 00:27:43.275
presumably link that node to you.
361
00:27:43.895 --> 00:27:45.675
So one of the most important things,
362
00:27:48.429 --> 00:27:56.049
takeaways, I think, is if you're running one of these long term sovereign nodes is that every UTXO that you do fund it with should be
363
00:27:56.845 --> 00:28:02.305
a post mix UTXO. They should be a CoinJoin UTXO, and I like to say that Lightning is a post mix tool.
364
00:28:02.765 --> 00:28:04.225
There's some people on
365
00:28:04.870 --> 00:28:07.530
Twitter who think that Lightning replaces CoinJoin.
366
00:28:07.909 --> 00:28:10.570
I think CoinJoin is, you know, is complimentary
367
00:28:10.870 --> 00:28:11.610
to Lightning.
368
00:28:12.775 --> 00:28:16.315
369
00:28:17.655 --> 00:28:19.015
is exactly that point.
370
00:28:19.495 --> 00:28:22.389
Saying, you know, it's it's a good, like, post mix tool,
371
00:28:22.850 --> 00:28:26.549
that all your channel should be funded with mixed, UTXO's.
372
00:28:27.330 --> 00:28:30.515
I kinda struggle with that because I, you know, like you
373
00:28:31.055 --> 00:28:31.555
said,
374
00:28:32.095 --> 00:28:32.595
consolidating
375
00:28:33.055 --> 00:28:44.669
post mix UTXOs, I mean, there's a certain point where that's not that's not a good thing to do. Right? And, like, if you maybe if we're talking about a couple, you have enough of it and on set to get away with it.
376
00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:46.590
But if you had
377
00:28:47.325 --> 00:28:48.625
a bunch of channels,
378
00:28:49.005 --> 00:28:50.705
funded with a bunch of different
379
00:28:51.085 --> 00:28:53.505
post mix UTXOs, I mean, that
380
00:28:54.220 --> 00:28:56.639
surely that degrades your end on set, like,
381
00:28:57.419 --> 00:28:58.299
a lot. Right? You're
382
00:28:58.860 --> 00:29:03.175
even if you're just opening private channels, one of the things in the article that I found out,
383
00:29:03.655 --> 00:29:05.515
in the last few weeks was that
384
00:29:05.895 --> 00:29:07.595
private channels are actually probable
385
00:29:08.055 --> 00:29:08.875
probe able.
386
00:29:09.335 --> 00:29:11.015
Someone could probe your
387
00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:15.620
they could send a bunch of spam payments through your node and attempt to find
388
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:16.820
private channels.
389
00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:21.205
They just guess what a possible UTXO
390
00:29:21.825 --> 00:29:31.530
could have been that funded a private channel, and they send that through your node. And if it, like, goes on to the next node, and that next node passes back an error because, you know, maybe it was,
391
00:29:32.010 --> 00:29:34.270
you know, it was the wrong public key or something,
392
00:29:36.065 --> 00:29:36.885
You've essentially
393
00:29:37.585 --> 00:29:55.055
that attacker has essentially figured out, a private channel of yours and the UTXO going behind that private channel. So I so I guess, like, what I'm trying to make is, you know, I think there's a certain point, right, where if you're consolidating too many post UTXOs, it's not it's not a good thing. Right? But but, I mean, the takeaway is is
394
00:29:55.595 --> 00:29:59.855
395
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.779
you really should just have 1 or 2 coinjoin UTXOs,
396
00:30:04.320 --> 00:30:09.059
and then you open 1 or 2 large channels to 1 or 2 routing nodes.
397
00:30:09.475 --> 00:30:14.774
And then you spend for a little bit, and then you get rid of it, and you start fresh again,
398
00:30:15.794 --> 00:30:16.930
with a new node.
399
00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:23.990
That is different though than if you're trying to run a long term routing node. And if you're trying to run a long term routing node,
400
00:30:27.205 --> 00:30:28.345
you know, the
401
00:30:28.965 --> 00:30:30.265
I I I
402
00:30:30.885 --> 00:30:35.240
never I it it's it's very easy to make mistakes with the coin join.
403
00:30:36.580 --> 00:30:38.520
There's, you know, it's there there
404
00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:41.765
I am not saying it's perfect privacy, and it's, you know,
405
00:30:43.125 --> 00:30:45.045
perfect privacy is something that,
406
00:30:45.685 --> 00:30:47.420
mostly scammers will say,
407
00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:54.000
but it is it is strictly an improvement over funding your node with anything else.
408
00:30:54.860 --> 00:30:57.120
The if you if you have if you have
409
00:30:57.725 --> 00:31:02.705
post mix that's consolidating, you're hurting your own in onset, and you're hurting the in onset
410
00:31:03.325 --> 00:31:06.065
of the other participants in your CoinJoin rounds,
411
00:31:07.550 --> 00:31:11.250
but that can be alleviated if we have more CoinJoin usage
412
00:31:11.950 --> 00:31:13.170
and if we have implementations
413
00:31:14.510 --> 00:31:17.745
that attempt to mitigate post mix consolidation.
414
00:31:18.445 --> 00:31:18.945
Because
415
00:31:19.325 --> 00:31:20.785
we can't have implementations
416
00:31:21.405 --> 00:31:31.960
that assume that every actor and participant in a mix is going to be great after the mix. Right? That like, that's a that's a bad assumption. The assumption should be the opposite,
417
00:31:33.575 --> 00:31:34.955
and those implementations
418
00:31:35.255 --> 00:31:38.235
need to take that into account and improve in that regard.
419
00:31:40.050 --> 00:31:48.950
420
00:31:49.475 --> 00:31:55.015
throw it through very poor use, the joy market tumbler, you know, even if you use savvy
421
00:31:55.795 --> 00:31:59.670
and you found a node. I mean, first of all, it's best to decide
422
00:32:00.370 --> 00:32:02.150
what do you want to do with it. So
423
00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:07.110
1 or 2 channels, if it's just a spending node, or say you want to build a routing node well.
424
00:32:07.565 --> 00:32:12.625
Okay. I might need, like, half a Bitcoin for that, right, in in the long term. Okay?
425
00:32:13.644 --> 00:32:15.825
So you might just want to send,
426
00:32:17.190 --> 00:32:20.490
you know, a a 50,000,000 sets post mix,
427
00:32:21.110 --> 00:32:33.055
UTX on there. And and I'm not saying to open a a channel for half a Bitcoin straight, but you can keep using that because it's anyway, it will be tied together with the pop key. Basically, all the channels are UTXers,
428
00:32:33.915 --> 00:32:34.415
and
429
00:32:34.795 --> 00:32:44.490
they are advertised to belong to that same pop key. So it doesn't matter. Once you have put it in, it you can reuse it as many times as you like. And also,
430
00:32:44.855 --> 00:32:45.755
when you have
431
00:32:46.935 --> 00:32:52.799
sent so you have opened the channel, opened a couple of channels, and then you you can swap
432
00:32:53.100 --> 00:32:57.039
them from lightning back to on chain, and then from those swapped,
433
00:32:58.620 --> 00:33:08.625
UTX servers, which are now detached from the history again because they're belonging to, you know, the loop server of Lightning Labs, to the bot's exchange, to Bitfinex, whichever.
434
00:33:09.350 --> 00:33:09.850
Obviously,
435
00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:11.530
no key account
436
00:33:11.830 --> 00:33:12.570
on Bitfinex,
437
00:33:13.510 --> 00:33:14.010
then
438
00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:16.570
you can use them to
439
00:33:16.875 --> 00:33:18.415
to open further channels
440
00:33:18.715 --> 00:33:20.015
a bit. So
441
00:33:20.635 --> 00:33:21.135
yeah.
442
00:33:21.675 --> 00:33:27.330
443
00:33:28.190 --> 00:33:36.115
One aspect of it, where you have, you know, maybe you have one, you know, half of Bitcoin UTXO, and and you say, okay. We'll use that
444
00:33:36.415 --> 00:33:45.940
in your public channel because you wanna be a routing node. You open a channel with that, and you use the change to open other channels. And I would have to say that wouldn't wouldn't be the best privacy because,
445
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:47.860
like I said earlier,
446
00:33:48.505 --> 00:33:51.385
you nobody from the outside really knows which,
447
00:33:52.025 --> 00:33:52.525
node
448
00:33:53.065 --> 00:33:54.205
owned that UTXO.
449
00:33:54.665 --> 00:34:00.190
If I'm opening up a channel with Matt, it could have been either of us that that open up that channel with that UTXO.
450
00:34:01.530 --> 00:34:06.325
The thing that gets you is if I open up a channel with Matt,
451
00:34:06.725 --> 00:34:08.825
I have a point, like, half of Bitcoin UTXO,
452
00:34:09.525 --> 00:34:13.340
open up a channel with him for with point 1, a 100 10,000,000 sats.
453
00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:16.880
You should be using SATs or not Bitcoin. Thank you.
454
00:34:18.140 --> 00:34:21.875
10,000,000 SATs, and and then I turn around with the 40,000,000,
455
00:34:22.495 --> 00:34:26.115
sets and and change that I get back, and I open up channel with you, OpenNoms.
456
00:34:26.655 --> 00:34:30.570
At that point, it's pretty clear that I owned both of those UTXOs.
457
00:34:30.950 --> 00:34:32.650
The original 50,000,000 SATs.
458
00:34:33.350 --> 00:34:37.415
True. Because the change address goes back to my note. So I would say, like, if if
459
00:34:38.215 --> 00:34:45.115
it it would suck, but, if you're if you're any change address after you open the channel, I I would say it would be best
460
00:34:45.660 --> 00:34:47.520
if you were to throw it back in a mixer.
461
00:34:48.220 --> 00:34:49.040
That's expensive.
462
00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:50.480
463
00:34:50.859 --> 00:34:53.359
Yeah. I absolutely agree. I mean, I just
464
00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:55.484
yeah. I can't
465
00:34:55.865 --> 00:34:56.365
imagine
466
00:34:56.904 --> 00:34:59.805
someone, even myself, you know, following the practice perfectly.
467
00:35:00.505 --> 00:35:01.005
So,
468
00:35:01.384 --> 00:35:02.684
you know, I would just
469
00:35:02.990 --> 00:35:08.770
presume that whatever I found my note with it will be tied to, not me, but to the note.
470
00:35:09.070 --> 00:35:16.244
Right? And and you're absolutely right if you if you follow this perfect practice that you only you don't create change or or you
471
00:35:18.220 --> 00:35:23.840
deal with the change accordingly like like toxic change and you mix that as well every time,
472
00:35:24.355 --> 00:35:27.654
so don't use it to open another channel. And also when you close the
473
00:35:28.115 --> 00:35:29.335
channel then
474
00:35:29.635 --> 00:35:31.734
that will be not used for anything either.
475
00:35:32.270 --> 00:35:33.410
You know, that's a challenge,
476
00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:41.089
especially if there are no, you know, new features coming like dual funded channels, which are will be automatically manage your UTXOs.
477
00:35:41.605 --> 00:35:50.345
Also, the anchor commitments on on l and d, which do need the UTXO to to kind of, bump the fee of of channel closers.
478
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:59.820
And they would need some UTX funds reserved there or some funds reserved there. It's it's, yeah, it's it's close to impossible in in, like, in a,
479
00:36:00.185 --> 00:36:18.845
480
00:36:19.305 --> 00:36:24.925
And you're trying to spend privately. Right? You you you pick a couple large routing nodes, ideally ones that are Tor only,
481
00:36:26.369 --> 00:36:29.589
and you just you spend through those channels, and then you
482
00:36:29.890 --> 00:36:33.190
483
00:36:33.515 --> 00:36:34.335
you know, educational
484
00:36:34.635 --> 00:36:35.994
kind of, notes
485
00:36:36.475 --> 00:36:43.135
report, like, node management report of mine, I've already, like, puts the 3 kind of major use cases of being of of
486
00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:52.810
what to help people decide why they are starting a node. So is it to be just a spending node, basically a privacy tool and to be able to use Bitcoin more cheaply and
487
00:36:53.415 --> 00:36:53.915
faster,
488
00:36:54.775 --> 00:37:04.819
or you you they would want to do to make it out, you know, then then exactly those are very different use cases. And if you have only 2 channels and one with the UTX's funding, you can,
489
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:12.295
follow this perfect practice which has been described to to always keep your on chain of the on chain balance basically
490
00:37:12.835 --> 00:37:14.535
just off in a mixer.
491
00:37:16.035 --> 00:37:33.525
492
00:37:34.545 --> 00:37:36.244
to spend from your channel,
493
00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:39.960
and to get basically someone else's UTXO.
494
00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:44.680
I I I would kinda lean on if you can, because you can,
495
00:37:45.605 --> 00:37:48.425
try to actually get other people's UTXOs,
496
00:37:49.045 --> 00:37:50.984
and not and not try to use
497
00:37:51.365 --> 00:37:55.350
your your your own mixed UTXOs, if you can. Like, I under, you know,
498
00:37:55.970 --> 00:37:59.350
while there's tools out there to acquire other people's UTXO's
499
00:37:59.730 --> 00:38:01.350
that are not linked to your identity,
500
00:38:01.895 --> 00:38:03.275
I kinda prefer that
501
00:38:03.655 --> 00:38:05.755
to using your your own mixed,
502
00:38:07.735 --> 00:38:16.619
UTXO's if you're going to be, like, a public routing node and and have all that associated. What you said about senders, you know, open 1 or 2 private channels, absolutely.
503
00:38:16.975 --> 00:38:19.715
Know, go ahead and do that with a few mixed UTXO's.
504
00:38:20.655 --> 00:38:27.120
But but yeah. Try to take advantage of the fact that people are basically giving away UTXOs for
505
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:30.880
Lightning Sats, which, you know, do a pretty good job.
506
00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:34.994
Lightning does a pretty good job of of hiding the sender for the most part.
507
00:38:35.395 --> 00:38:40.775
So take advantage of of the people selling UTXOs for for Sats on on the Lightning Network.
508
00:38:43.450 --> 00:38:48.190
509
00:38:49.045 --> 00:38:52.505
I fund my node. I'm trying to create a long term routing node.
510
00:38:54.885 --> 00:38:57.650
I fund it with, you know, a 50,000,000
511
00:38:57.950 --> 00:39:02.609
sat transaction because I'm a polar. What like, okay. So I do the 50,000,000
512
00:39:03.069 --> 00:39:12.195
sat transaction, which is a Yeah. I used them because that's the biggest pool at the Google. Right? I know. But, like, that that okay. So I fund it with $27,000.
513
00:39:14.690 --> 00:39:21.110
And then you, like, make a couple large channel. Oh, I'm I'm only supposed to make one large channel with that, I guess.
514
00:39:21.654 --> 00:39:22.154
Ideally.
515
00:39:22.615 --> 00:39:24.954
And then, if I wanna add more channels,
516
00:39:25.335 --> 00:39:26.474
what do I do next?
517
00:39:27.414 --> 00:39:28.154
From there,
518
00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:30.049
519
00:39:30.369 --> 00:39:34.470
Lightning Labs loop out service, which basically, at this point, comes integrated
520
00:39:35.089 --> 00:39:39.155
into an application called Terminal that they make, which comes integrated with,
521
00:39:39.635 --> 00:39:40.135
RaspiBlitz
522
00:39:40.675 --> 00:39:45.415
and Umbrel and and probably some others as well. So you can use Lightning Labs loop out.
523
00:39:46.035 --> 00:39:53.030
What you end up doing is you end up paying what happens behind the scenes is is you end up paying 1 of Lightning Labs' invoices.
524
00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:58.484
That they charge a fee, of course, but you pay an invoice of theirs and then you receive,
525
00:40:00.145 --> 00:40:00.724
a UTXO
526
00:40:01.025 --> 00:40:13.869
to your Lightning Nodes address, or you can send it to a different address if you want. But for the purpose of what Matt's trying to describe here where you get back you want more UTXOs to create more channels, use something like Lightning Labs, Loop Out,
527
00:40:14.385 --> 00:40:17.525
spend some of your channel, you know, with your big 50,
528
00:40:18.065 --> 00:40:18.545
million,
529
00:40:18.865 --> 00:40:19.365
channel,
530
00:40:20.305 --> 00:40:27.300
you know, loop loop after that. Yeah. And get some on chain funds open more channels with There's capacity limits on loop out. Correct?
531
00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:29.119
So it's funny.
532
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:31.220
You know, I had actually
533
00:40:31.835 --> 00:40:34.095
just on sat on on Sunday,
534
00:40:34.474 --> 00:40:39.775
I had done a loop out probably the largest loop out I've ever done. I didn't expect it to actually go through,
535
00:40:40.890 --> 00:40:47.790
15,000,000 sets of loop out. Oh, wow. And it just it and and I got that for a few sets per, virtual bite,
536
00:40:48.175 --> 00:40:51.155
537
00:40:51.935 --> 00:40:52.435
538
00:40:53.215 --> 00:40:55.875
And then at that point, I so
539
00:40:56.309 --> 00:40:57.349
it's kinda funny.
540
00:40:57.750 --> 00:41:02.329
Like I said, the the the the note I started getting serious with about 6 months ago,
541
00:41:03.585 --> 00:41:08.885
it's it's I'm not following any of the things That's what I'm saying. To do in the article.
542
00:41:09.265 --> 00:41:25.234
I'm learning though. I'm learning what I'm supposed to do, and now since going through this article, I know what to do on, like, a new note. But it's it's one of those things where, like, I I don't feel comfortable, like, the way I've been behaving with my lightning node over the last 6 months to to really share that out with people just because it has
543
00:41:25.535 --> 00:41:28.260
a bunch of consolidated mixed UTXOs on there, which,
544
00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:30.420
full disclaimer, I use,
545
00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:40.025
Wasabi and then and to be honest, I don't even know how comfortable I am with that shitty one. So so I know. So it's important for people to realize that,
546
00:41:42.165 --> 00:41:44.984
547
00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:48.130
and and and so so so
548
00:41:48.510 --> 00:41:50.530
on chain privacy is directly linked
549
00:41:50.990 --> 00:41:53.410
to Lightning because you're funding with these UTXOs.
550
00:41:53.710 --> 00:41:57.035
And the Anand set of coin join, especially in
551
00:41:58.215 --> 00:42:01.595
Wasabi, because I just the implementation just isn't built
552
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:04.359
in a way that the Anand set is is
553
00:42:05.240 --> 00:42:12.275
so the Anand set degrades very quickly if people do things with their UTXOs afterwards that are bad for privacy.
554
00:42:13.135 --> 00:42:18.835
And the big thing, you know, the number one biggest thing is then they interact with KYC Services afterwards.
555
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:24.660
So the overwhelming majority of the non set is probably degraded through a combination of combining
556
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:25.780
UTXOs,
557
00:42:26.240 --> 00:42:28.020
people combining after the fact.
558
00:42:28.924 --> 00:42:30.545
They're clicking the select all button,
559
00:42:31.484 --> 00:42:35.905
or they're actually going, and they're they're sending it to a KYC service,
560
00:42:36.370 --> 00:42:37.030
or they're,
561
00:42:37.890 --> 00:42:38.710
buying something
562
00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:40.790
through a third party processor,
563
00:42:41.650 --> 00:42:43.830
someone like an OpenNode or a Bitrefill,
564
00:42:45.885 --> 00:42:49.505
or even worse, a BitPay or a Coinbase merchant service.
565
00:42:50.765 --> 00:42:51.245
If you
566
00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:56.099
when you do that, obviously, you're linking that UTXO
567
00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:00.900
to yourself, and as a result, you're degrading the onset of everyone else.
568
00:43:01.555 --> 00:43:03.335
And it degrades over time,
569
00:43:03.795 --> 00:43:07.335
and that ledgers forever. So if you have a UTXO sitting in there,
570
00:43:08.115 --> 00:43:09.735
sitting in your lightning node,
571
00:43:10.100 --> 00:43:15.720
your onset is degrading after the fact because of every other participant and what they're doing.
572
00:43:16.660 --> 00:43:21.404
And I know that's, like, a really headful of people to to to deal with.
573
00:43:21.865 --> 00:43:22.845
It's not ideal,
574
00:43:23.305 --> 00:43:32.420
but, it I think it's important that people shouldn't be discouraged necessarily from using these tools. I think some tools are better than others. I think I've been pretty clear on the show about it.
575
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:33.359
But,
576
00:43:34.640 --> 00:43:36.099
they should it's it's
577
00:43:36.425 --> 00:43:39.165
it's strictly better than not using those tools.
578
00:43:39.785 --> 00:43:44.740
If you just take, like, a Cash App UTXO and you fund your fucking lightning node with it,
579
00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:47.560
you're in a insanely worse position
580
00:43:47.860 --> 00:43:55.885
than if, you know, your nonsense degrading because a bunch of different databases scattered around the world all have different information on your participants,
581
00:43:56.985 --> 00:44:00.205
in that round. Right? This is like a this is a nuance
582
00:44:00.505 --> 00:44:05.520
that is hard to grasp, but it's it's important I I think it's important that people don't get discouraged,
583
00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:08.240
in that regard.
584
00:44:08.974 --> 00:44:09.635
585
00:44:10.015 --> 00:44:10.815
and that's why,
586
00:44:11.855 --> 00:44:12.355
when
587
00:44:12.815 --> 00:44:30.145
because the Lightning Network, especially if you wanna be, you know, reputational based node, and you wanna route, and you wanna keep channels open for as long as you can. It kinda goes against the fact that on, you know, some implementations, maybe it's all of them. I you know, this is where it kinda get fuzzy, but over time, your an onset is just gonna degrade.
588
00:44:30.525 --> 00:44:36.625
And over time, if you keep that channel open and you just keep it open forever, your an onset is just degrading. Right?
589
00:44:37.590 --> 00:44:43.450
So trying to trying to achieve that the best end on set you can, which, you know, maybe, you know, some people have
590
00:44:44.444 --> 00:44:47.585
preferences on different implementations. Won't get into that.
591
00:44:48.525 --> 00:44:53.750
But, yeah, I I think and and that's why I say to try to, if you can, try to use
592
00:44:54.370 --> 00:44:57.670
non mixed UTXOs because of this. Just So why?
593
00:44:58.450 --> 00:45:06.305
594
00:45:07.655 --> 00:45:08.155
595
00:45:09.270 --> 00:45:10.810
not not don't use
596
00:45:11.110 --> 00:45:20.484
your original. Yeah. You're exactly right. If you get a UTXO from from Coinbase or whatever, definitely mix that. If but it's way better, but try to use other people's UTXOs.
597
00:45:21.025 --> 00:45:31.420
598
00:45:32.015 --> 00:45:32.755
transact UTXOs
599
00:45:33.055 --> 00:45:35.075
as possible, all post mix UTXOs,
600
00:45:36.494 --> 00:45:39.635
and you're cycling through the node. On the receiving side,
601
00:45:40.970 --> 00:45:45.390
I mean, I think best practice is to use, like, Moon Wallet on your phone with the VPN
602
00:45:45.769 --> 00:45:47.390
that cycles public keys,
603
00:45:47.690 --> 00:45:55.595
you know, doesn't doesn't doesn't tie them all to the same pub key, and then you could pay out to your solver node, and then you're just kind of custodial privacy trusting
604
00:45:56.135 --> 00:45:56.954
Moon Wallet.
605
00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:01.100
Would you would you agree on that premise, like, as just a simple actionable
606
00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:02.780
thing people can do?
607
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:04.940
608
00:46:06.035 --> 00:46:06.935
m u u n.com.
609
00:46:07.555 --> 00:46:12.455
Oh, yeah. Thank you. It's probably one of the best for receiving just because of the fact that they do rotate.
610
00:46:13.710 --> 00:46:20.609
I I'm not sure if they rotate both public and channel ID, or or just one or the other. It's at least up key, I believe.
611
00:46:21.525 --> 00:46:25.785
But they do a good job rotating and having these sort of fake or virtual
612
00:46:26.325 --> 00:46:33.680
channel IDs or or or or private nodes behind them. So, yes, I 100% agree. It's unfortunate that that's the only
613
00:46:34.140 --> 00:46:37.839
implementation I know of where it it it goes through this healthy practice
614
00:46:38.525 --> 00:46:43.345
of rot rotating and and shielding the the actual the real destination.
615
00:46:44.685 --> 00:46:48.819
But I believe that that will change with time. I believe there'll be more implementations,
616
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:53.599
c lightning plug ins or or l and d interceptors that that try to,
617
00:46:54.570 --> 00:47:04.770
618
00:47:07.310 --> 00:47:11.410
by ln the lntx bot, which does the exact same thing.
619
00:47:13.155 --> 00:47:13.555
But,
620
00:47:14.115 --> 00:47:17.575
it doesn't rotate on every invoice. It only rotates
621
00:47:17.954 --> 00:47:19.575
for every user. So, basically,
622
00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:24.079
it's a custody of node, but you have your own pop key,
623
00:47:24.619 --> 00:47:30.105
which is a virtual pop key with a virtual private channel connected to the n and t x bot node node.
624
00:47:31.685 --> 00:47:36.025
625
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:45.520
626
00:47:45.965 --> 00:47:49.985
I mean, you know, not from the command line on on on my own node.
627
00:47:50.685 --> 00:47:51.185
But
628
00:47:51.485 --> 00:47:53.345
mind you, even in that case,
629
00:47:53.885 --> 00:47:59.960
the last hope will be always my note. Right? So Right. That that gives it away.
630
00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:01.880
Because you have a private channel,
631
00:48:02.500 --> 00:48:12.665
which obviously can be anywhere, but then the last hop will be always the node which is creating that virtual pub key. The the other thing that's just nice about mobile wallets in general
632
00:48:13.350 --> 00:48:13.850
633
00:48:14.790 --> 00:48:19.130
if you use even if you use if you use a custodial wallet, you use, like, a wallet of Satoshi
634
00:48:19.590 --> 00:48:20.490
or a BlueWallet
635
00:48:21.435 --> 00:48:25.135
or or you don't use a custodial wallet, you use, like, a Breeze or a Phoenix.
636
00:48:25.675 --> 00:48:26.575
You can and
637
00:48:26.875 --> 00:48:29.295
you can use them to receive a couple transactions,
638
00:48:30.740 --> 00:48:40.984
then you empty it out to your own node, and then you wipe the app, and you start fresh again. And, you know, I I guess you use a VPN so that the service doesn't have your IP address.
639
00:48:42.165 --> 00:48:46.505
I don't think any of them I I Phoenix has Tor built in now, I think.
640
00:48:46.900 --> 00:48:47.400
Yes.
641
00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:52.440
642
00:48:52.819 --> 00:48:55.960
you're going from now that exchanges are implementing Lightning,
643
00:48:57.015 --> 00:49:01.035
if if you're going from an exchange into your custodial Wallet of Satoshi,
644
00:49:01.895 --> 00:49:03.755
Wallet of Satoshi doesn't know
645
00:49:04.590 --> 00:49:08.770
where those funds came from. Now your your exchange knows it's going to Wallet of Satoshi.
646
00:49:09.390 --> 00:49:17.735
Wallet of the Satoshi doesn't know where it came from. And now you go from Wald of Satoshi to your real node or or or, you know, your moon mod or whatever,
647
00:49:18.275 --> 00:49:21.500
that at least does a good pretty good job of wiping
648
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:27.579
that history of okay. You're you're no longer associated with that exchange that you're withdrawing from.
649
00:49:28.355 --> 00:49:33.174
650
00:49:33.635 --> 00:49:36.934
that, like, most people are just gonna fuck something up along the way.
651
00:49:37.290 --> 00:49:52.805
Right? And which is why, like, our goal should not be this even though this is, like, our practical advice today. Right? Yes. It's a code of hack. Yeah. It is a hack. It's, but but at least the Exchange doesn't know what your real note is, and they don't know
652
00:49:53.210 --> 00:49:54.109
653
00:49:54.410 --> 00:49:55.390
funding your channels
654
00:49:56.009 --> 00:49:58.589
or any of the you know, if you're an IP node.
655
00:49:58.970 --> 00:50:00.589
They don't know what your IP address
656
00:50:01.075 --> 00:50:09.150
or any of those things. So I think it it sucks, but, I mean, that's what I do. I always send a wall to the Toshiba and then send them real node.
657
00:50:09.870 --> 00:50:14.930
I I don't think those steps are too complicated to think about, but you do have custodial risk,
658
00:50:15.230 --> 00:50:16.450
not only on exchange.
659
00:50:19.235 --> 00:50:31.620
If you're going from an exchange, but also you're trusting Wallace Satoshi to not run away, which has done a good job of not running away. But more importantly, I think the custodial nodes are all gonna get the custodial wallets are all gonna get whacked by the the regulators.
660
00:50:32.160 --> 00:50:34.500
661
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:35.345
662
00:50:37.265 --> 00:50:38.325
in the first place.
663
00:50:40.385 --> 00:50:40.885
664
00:50:41.905 --> 00:50:47.750
So, yes, the the other thing I was, like, you're gonna speak about on on c. Especially I think to
665
00:50:48.130 --> 00:50:55.095
to try to well, this will be like an advanced use case, but if you are running like a large node and you're trying to do this do it professionally,
666
00:50:55.475 --> 00:51:01.895
you might you probably want to manage the on chain funds in a separate wallet, not in the wallet of the lightning
667
00:51:02.390 --> 00:51:06.329
implementation, let it be l and d or c lightning or or whichever you are using.
668
00:51:06.789 --> 00:51:07.289
And,
669
00:51:08.309 --> 00:51:09.289
I mean, I found,
670
00:51:10.475 --> 00:51:11.535
like joint markets,
671
00:51:12.235 --> 00:51:15.135
you know, be as complicated to use as it is,
672
00:51:15.755 --> 00:51:17.535
although we try to make it easier,
673
00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:20.800
But it is a very good fit to kind
674
00:51:21.100 --> 00:51:21.760
of fund
675
00:51:22.140 --> 00:51:26.400
lightning channels because you have a set of different UTXOs, not only,
676
00:51:26.744 --> 00:51:28.045
you know, 15,500,000,
677
00:51:28.665 --> 00:51:40.820
but you have you have all kinds of UTXOs if you are if you are running as a maker. And then you can when you close a channel, especially if you do it from the command line, there might be like RTLs on the hub, you know, these
678
00:51:41.345 --> 00:51:44.245
graphical interfaces implementing that as well that when you
679
00:51:45.025 --> 00:51:49.365
are closing the channel, you can give an external address where the
680
00:51:51.140 --> 00:51:52.839
funds are going to directly
681
00:51:53.460 --> 00:52:00.005
without you needing to wait for it to be confirmed in your on chain wallet and then sending in another step. So you could just,
682
00:52:00.785 --> 00:52:01.444
you know,
683
00:52:02.545 --> 00:52:03.845
close it into,
684
00:52:05.025 --> 00:52:08.005
your drone market but even even your samurai wallet
685
00:52:09.010 --> 00:52:09.510
address,
686
00:52:10.050 --> 00:52:11.270
and then, you know,
687
00:52:11.890 --> 00:52:13.030
go through the mix again.
688
00:52:13.970 --> 00:52:17.350
Right. And then when you're funding again, you you you can come from outside.
689
00:52:17.915 --> 00:52:18.815
They are easier
690
00:52:20.555 --> 00:52:23.775
the tools get are getting easier to be used. I mean, all,
691
00:52:24.795 --> 00:52:26.255
implementations now now
692
00:52:26.790 --> 00:52:27.530
support PSBT.
693
00:52:28.150 --> 00:52:31.610
I think Zeus, even Caludis, you know, is working on
694
00:52:32.950 --> 00:52:35.130
building external funding with PSBTs
695
00:52:35.965 --> 00:52:36.465
into
696
00:52:36.925 --> 00:52:38.065
the Zeus wallet.
697
00:52:38.605 --> 00:53:00.635
So, you know, I look forward to that one. And, hopefully, it will be coming to some, you know, more graphical interface as well. Notorious guest of the of the podcast Absolutely. Evan Kaludis. No lightning, discussion should go without, you know, giving a shout out to him. You either have with all the lightning discussions on this on this show have either had open arms in it or or.
698
00:53:01.255 --> 00:53:01.755
699
00:53:05.080 --> 00:53:05.580
yeah.
700
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.300
Those are those are those are all very good points.
701
00:53:11.160 --> 00:53:12.060
I I
702
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:13.100
I I
703
00:53:14.035 --> 00:53:18.055
I it's important for people to realize that this stuff is all very early.
704
00:53:18.915 --> 00:53:19.735
And really,
705
00:53:20.275 --> 00:53:20.775
ultimately,
706
00:53:21.075 --> 00:53:27.530
if you really care about privacy and you wanna be the most private user, like, you just should not be running a routing node yet.
707
00:53:27.830 --> 00:53:28.570
But, unfortunately,
708
00:53:30.295 --> 00:53:36.075
you know, I think it's a balancing act. And, I mean, if you're a real private user, you shouldn't be,
709
00:53:36.510 --> 00:53:42.610
you know, having twice weekly live shows, but I'm doing that as well. And I I it's important, I think, that we have
710
00:53:44.435 --> 00:53:47.415
sovereign Bitcoiners out there that are that are, you
711
00:53:47.755 --> 00:53:48.255
know,
712
00:53:48.595 --> 00:53:53.230
basically on the front lines because because we we need it and we need it if if
713
00:53:54.109 --> 00:53:56.130
if if if when fees rise,
714
00:53:56.510 --> 00:54:00.690
you know, we're gonna need these sovereign nodes. We can't have all the nodes be,
715
00:54:02.125 --> 00:54:03.665
completely docs corporations
716
00:54:04.045 --> 00:54:05.585
that are that are regulated.
717
00:54:05.885 --> 00:54:08.065
718
00:54:09.099 --> 00:54:11.280
719
00:54:12.220 --> 00:54:16.960
720
00:54:17.455 --> 00:54:31.730
you know, if there's a popular path that's, you know, being really shitty, if there's a popular hub that's being really shitty, we can always go around them. We don't have to route through them anymore. We can close off our channels with them, etcetera. So it's almost it's it's a distributed it's not, like, completely decentralized
721
00:54:32.110 --> 00:54:41.905
in the way that, like, it it there there are kinda hubs, but at any point in time, it's more distributed. At any point in time, anyone can build their own roads and have their own little payment network,
722
00:54:42.380 --> 00:54:47.520
and things like that. So And we we we're not relying on them so much. It's a good decision. Note,
723
00:54:48.300 --> 00:54:54.605
724
00:54:55.385 --> 00:54:58.125
The Telegram it's bigger than a group. I think it's a lifestyle.
725
00:55:00.609 --> 00:55:04.950
726
00:55:05.330 --> 00:55:06.869
727
00:55:09.065 --> 00:55:11.885
728
00:55:12.425 --> 00:55:14.125
729
00:55:14.905 --> 00:55:15.725
this idea
730
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:18.579
that we have this Telegram group of
731
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.700
sovereign Bitcoiners and a couple spooks, most likely,
732
00:55:22.720 --> 00:55:24.339
who are we're collaborating
733
00:55:25.545 --> 00:55:26.444
via Telegram,
734
00:55:26.744 --> 00:55:28.444
and we're creating these rings.
735
00:55:29.145 --> 00:55:30.444
So, like, it's it's,
736
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:39.780
let's say, you wanna do a 5000000 sat ring. Everyone in the ring, you have 10 people, they each open a 5000000 sat channel,
737
00:55:40.295 --> 00:55:45.194
to the next person in the ring. So it's it creates a liquidity ring between the 10 people,
738
00:55:45.815 --> 00:55:46.474
and then,
739
00:55:47.095 --> 00:56:01.424
you do a circular rebalance. So all of a sudden, everyone has if it's 5,000,000 ring, 5,000,000 sat ring, all of a sudden, everyone has 2 and a half 1000000 SATs inbound from both their partners and 2 and 2 2 and a half 1000000 SaaS outbound from both their partners.
740
00:56:02.204 --> 00:56:04.785
And and you basically create this very robust,
741
00:56:05.484 --> 00:56:09.819
liquidity network. And by having channel having rings of all different sizes
742
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:11.180
and having participants
743
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:16.615
being in multiple rings, then you have links between the rings themselves,
744
00:56:17.235 --> 00:56:18.295
and you create,
745
00:56:20.115 --> 00:56:24.360
basically, the opposite of the FUD narrative of lightning that a hub and spoke.
746
00:56:24.660 --> 00:56:27.320
Right? You're, like, creating a a more dynamic
747
00:56:27.620 --> 00:56:28.360
kind of,
748
00:56:29.140 --> 00:56:31.400
web of sovereign lightning nodes.
749
00:56:33.025 --> 00:56:36.805
750
00:56:37.825 --> 00:56:39.365
it's a recommendation. I mean,
751
00:56:40.385 --> 00:56:40.885
probably,
752
00:56:42.210 --> 00:56:48.850
especially in the beginning, you know, the it was a practice that people were kind of advertising that you can, if you open an
753
00:56:49.455 --> 00:56:52.435
to open a channel to me and I open back one to you. Right?
754
00:56:52.975 --> 00:56:53.475
And,
755
00:56:54.255 --> 00:57:00.700
actually, it is much more beneficial if I open a channel to you than you open a channel to someone else
756
00:57:01.080 --> 00:57:05.295
so the funds can flow and they are not just in a loop. And exactly what
757
00:57:06.255 --> 00:57:10.434
happens in the string of fire on the edit kind of,
758
00:57:10.734 --> 00:57:13.635
you know, fantastic thing that they can just do, build
759
00:57:14.220 --> 00:57:15.279
build a route
760
00:57:15.579 --> 00:57:16.380
with these,
761
00:57:17.019 --> 00:57:21.760
bash scripts, basically. There are a couple of tools available where you just need to
762
00:57:22.184 --> 00:57:24.525
basically put the private keys after each the
763
00:57:25.385 --> 00:57:25.885
the
764
00:57:26.424 --> 00:57:27.164
pop keys
765
00:57:28.505 --> 00:57:32.630
after each other, and it does construct a route which you can put into
766
00:57:33.010 --> 00:57:34.150
the lightning
767
00:57:34.609 --> 00:57:37.830
command line, and then it will do the circular circular
768
00:57:38.369 --> 00:57:39.589
rebalancing. So
769
00:57:40.035 --> 00:57:46.695
it just, pays forward back to the originator node through this ring, and that's how it's it's getting balanced.
770
00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:51.020
Obviously, everyone needs to cooperate, needs to be online.
771
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:54.220
And then it also suggested order is, like,
772
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.145
kind of an ethical limit to have your fees reduced to a level
773
00:57:58.685 --> 00:58:02.545
so you're not, taxing too much the one who is Yeah. I don't believe in the fees part.
774
00:58:03.245 --> 00:58:06.385
775
00:58:06.990 --> 00:58:20.025
776
00:58:20.405 --> 00:58:22.585
not planning to be online. But,
777
00:58:23.090 --> 00:58:27.510
yeah, in terms of fees, yes. I mean, you know, you shouldn't come in and kind of trying to,
778
00:58:28.770 --> 00:58:29.670
you know, text
779
00:58:30.525 --> 00:58:33.585
or or people who are trying to kind of balance the channels through
780
00:58:33.885 --> 00:58:38.545
when the agreement was that you're coming in for this. But otherwise Yeah. But I mean
781
00:58:38.890 --> 00:58:43.550
782
00:58:45.530 --> 00:58:57.625
I mean, if if it's publicly connected to you, they'll shame you on Twitter. But if if it's not publicly connected to you, it's built into lightning, people just won't route through you. Right? They'll go other places. And the the the whole cool part of rings of fire to me
783
00:58:58.180 --> 00:59:05.240
is that it means that any given channel that you have, you're not, you know, completely attached to. And this was an issue I had,
784
00:59:05.735 --> 00:59:08.555
with the stacking stats node was because I saw
785
00:59:09.335 --> 00:59:10.395
I had good intentions,
786
00:59:11.255 --> 00:59:17.560
and very much like Anthony, like, I like to learn just and, like, open arms and, like, a lot of the freaks to be quite honest.
787
00:59:18.180 --> 00:59:19.560
I like to learn by doing,
788
00:59:20.180 --> 00:59:28.815
and I did that reciprocal approach. If you open to me, I'll open to you. And what that did was, first of all, if you have multiple channels open with a part partner,
789
00:59:29.675 --> 00:59:35.240
it hurts the routing. It it creates routing errors very easily. So it's better to just have one channel that's balanced.
790
00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:40.599
And then second of all, it made us a sing it made my note a single point of failure.
791
00:59:41.825 --> 00:59:44.645
And also my note was this little not a low
792
00:59:45.025 --> 00:59:45.905
g, and it,
793
00:59:46.545 --> 00:59:48.085
you know, this little rock 64,
794
00:59:48.600 --> 00:59:55.100
and it just kept dying. Like, it it was just it was cutting out all the time because it was running through Tor only, and it had way too many channels.
795
00:59:56.815 --> 01:00:00.995
And then just we just I just ended up in a situation where I had to clean it all up,
796
01:00:01.455 --> 01:00:07.220
and it caused a huge fee burden for everyone involved, but especially me, and I lost a bunch of money on it.
797
01:00:07.600 --> 01:00:10.020
But the cool thing about Rings of Fire, I think,
798
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.700
is, like, you do it you do a couple of them. You do a couple rings,
799
01:00:14.515 --> 01:00:24.819
and then all of a sudden, you're just you're, you know, you're connected to so many different liquidity routes. You're you're not you're not necessarily reliant on a single person who can raise their fees.
800
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:28.900
Well, I mean, that's another issue. Right? I could have just raised my fees at will,
801
01:00:30.125 --> 01:00:32.145
which I didn't do, but I could have,
802
01:00:33.244 --> 01:00:36.625
and and and rings of fire kind of reduces that
803
01:00:37.640 --> 01:00:45.900
dependency. I but I do push back on this idea. Like, every time I join a rings of fire group, they're like, don't raise your fees. I'm like, guys, like, no one's gonna remember your
804
01:00:46.205 --> 01:00:55.745
Telegram message saying not to raise your fees in, like, 4 years when this channel is still open. You just have to assume that people are gonna raise and lower their fees, and and routing will work as designed.
805
01:00:56.910 --> 01:01:08.765
806
01:01:09.145 --> 01:01:10.204
the idea of,
807
01:01:11.944 --> 01:01:16.630
cooperating with the peers to to to build a more resilient network.
808
01:01:17.250 --> 01:01:19.510
Because right now, you know, how does
809
01:01:20.290 --> 01:01:22.630
a new node coming online right now,
810
01:01:24.035 --> 01:01:24.835
Where does it
811
01:01:26.035 --> 01:01:35.119
who does it connect to? I mean, like, okay. Well, I'll look on 1 ML and I'll go to I'll well, everyone's connected to the async. It's number 1 node. Let me connect there.
812
01:01:35.819 --> 01:01:41.105
And we self I think it's something that human nature does anyways, but we self centralized in a way,
813
01:01:41.825 --> 01:02:03.045
and we create these single points of failure naturally. But if we have a sort of coordinator to help build it, I almost look at the ring of fire like like a like a, I don't know, like a carbon fiber net that is just super strong and we're all building on each other and we're all self organizing to have the best routes. Not everyone is connecting to Fold just because they like Fold and they're doing really cool stuff.
814
01:02:03.569 --> 01:02:08.790
You have some people connect to the phone and maybe you coordinate and say, okay. Cool. We'll have some connections out to,
815
01:02:09.490 --> 01:02:18.935
you know, async or or other places. So I I'd love the idea of of the Lightning Network kinda trying to self organize in a way and not just trend towards,
816
01:02:19.475 --> 01:02:19.975
centralization
817
01:02:20.355 --> 01:02:22.930
and and hub and spokes. I mean, I
818
01:02:23.470 --> 01:02:25.170
819
01:02:25.630 --> 01:02:27.330
one of the cool things about Bitcoin
820
01:02:27.790 --> 01:02:29.150
is to me, it's it's
821
01:02:30.335 --> 01:02:34.515
so so with Lightning, there's a bit of a tragedy of a of the commons
822
01:02:34.975 --> 01:02:35.475
concern.
823
01:02:36.975 --> 01:02:37.475
And
824
01:02:38.349 --> 01:02:42.210
and that's a trade off that was made to basically get us faster,
825
01:02:43.790 --> 01:02:44.849
cheaper transactions.
826
01:02:46.855 --> 01:02:48.795
And that's fine. It's more centralized
827
01:02:49.255 --> 01:02:51.515
than you know, unless censorship resistant
828
01:02:52.055 --> 01:03:02.080
than on chain because it makes those different trade offs because it sits on top of the Bitcoin main chain. But the Bitcoin main chain is super cool to me because it's almost reverse tragedy to the commons.
829
01:03:02.780 --> 01:03:03.600
It's like,
830
01:03:04.140 --> 01:03:04.540
you've,
831
01:03:05.625 --> 01:03:14.365
like, optimist of the the commons. Like, it's good for the it's like every if you're greedy, it's good for everyone because transaction fees are just designed in a way,
832
01:03:15.349 --> 01:03:17.930
that that means that you you can't, you know,
833
01:03:20.390 --> 01:03:22.170
like like, by acting greedy,
834
01:03:22.895 --> 01:03:26.675
you're you're a good participant in the network. But with Lightning,
835
01:03:26.975 --> 01:03:33.540
the natural progression is the cheapest thing an individual can do, the most private thing an individual can do
836
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:34.740
is simply
837
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:43.755
open you know, I have a Tor only lightning node and open 1 or 2 channels to the most connected nodes, period, with the lowest fees, period.
838
01:03:44.410 --> 01:03:46.330
And, you know, that that could be,
839
01:03:48.010 --> 01:03:52.670
that that could be like an async or a regulated company, or that could be
840
01:03:54.845 --> 01:03:59.585
who's that guy who has, I got I just got a loss who has, like, 40% of the network.
841
01:04:00.420 --> 01:04:08.600
And a l n big? L n big. L n big. It could be like an l n big, and that is the cheapest and most private way that you can interact with lightning.
842
01:04:08.924 --> 01:04:10.305
So we kind of need
843
01:04:11.005 --> 01:04:17.990
this push. We need these these these sovereign Bitcoiners that are willing to go out of their way, risk a little bit more of their privacy,
844
01:04:18.370 --> 01:04:19.590
risk a little bit,
845
01:04:20.690 --> 01:04:21.350
more money
846
01:04:21.730 --> 01:04:22.470
at stake
847
01:04:22.770 --> 01:04:29.815
to try and build this network because they understand that, you know, low time preference long term, it's better for all of us
848
01:04:30.355 --> 01:04:33.335
if if we have a more robust lightning network. Right?
849
01:04:34.310 --> 01:04:34.810
850
01:04:35.430 --> 01:04:41.725
It is so there've been a couple of questions about, like, how many people are in a ring. It's up up to 10 as I as I,
851
01:04:42.445 --> 01:04:43.905
gathered so far. And also
852
01:04:44.845 --> 01:04:46.785
about a fee thing. So it it
853
01:04:47.085 --> 01:04:52.640
is just supposed to be reused for the time of that circular labyrinth, that that one time circular rebalance.
854
01:04:53.020 --> 01:04:55.580
I mean, after that, you know, obviously, no one could
855
01:04:56.435 --> 01:05:00.295
Oh, okay. That makes sense. To ask you. Right? Because just just to shift the liquidity
856
01:05:00.675 --> 01:05:07.630
because in that case, you know, if there are t 10 people, there is there are 10 channels to pay through. And if, you know, everyone takes their, you know, 0.1%
857
01:05:08.089 --> 01:05:11.309
or whatever, then it can get to a significant level.
858
01:05:11.769 --> 01:05:15.935
And so the other thing is that again, there is a trade off of like
859
01:05:16.315 --> 01:05:25.540
I think the these this exists certainly in the Telegram and then also net Reddit. I mean, both are like in in a kind of KYC light chat apps. Right? So,
860
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:30.905
the best thing is I mean, we spoke about how bad it is to kind of tie your
861
01:05:33.045 --> 01:05:34.025
node to
862
01:05:34.645 --> 01:05:36.185
your phone number basically.
863
01:05:37.845 --> 01:05:39.545
So you might want to set up
864
01:05:40.110 --> 01:05:41.970
just a an kind of inon
865
01:05:43.070 --> 01:05:43.570
identity,
866
01:05:44.270 --> 01:05:48.290
or like pseudonym to be exact and just, you know, open up like
867
01:05:51.615 --> 01:05:59.400
you know, tails and register a a burner number and go on Telegram and and have these channels and then leave that as a point of contact for the note.
868
01:05:59.780 --> 01:06:00.680
And just,
869
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:01.780
maybe
870
01:06:02.740 --> 01:06:08.025
if you register 1 ml, put a put an email address on there. So if people have trouble
871
01:06:08.405 --> 01:06:10.265
and you want to be a good player
872
01:06:10.565 --> 01:06:11.944
and you might need it yourself,
873
01:06:12.724 --> 01:06:14.265
they can contact you. Right?
874
01:06:16.099 --> 01:06:18.440
Because there could be technical issues still
875
01:06:18.819 --> 01:06:24.760
or people are doing, you know, making mistakes or losing their general states completely and and stuff like that.
876
01:06:26.085 --> 01:06:29.145
When, you know, they would it would be it is really good to have
877
01:06:29.525 --> 01:06:31.545
a point of contact like that. And
878
01:06:31.980 --> 01:06:39.279
on the other hand, from your point of view, it is really good to know or to be able to contact your peers. So,
879
01:06:39.685 --> 01:06:44.744
I mean, you know, it's okay for example with Async, you probably could contact them, but if you go to
880
01:06:46.950 --> 01:06:48.170
like a a large
881
01:06:48.550 --> 01:06:50.410
node who is completely,
882
01:06:50.950 --> 01:06:53.210
you know, nameless and there is no
883
01:06:54.154 --> 01:06:59.615
way to to go to them if you have a problem or funds locked up most importantly,
884
01:07:00.075 --> 01:07:00.555
then,
885
01:07:01.035 --> 01:07:03.055
you know, it it it's it's not the best.
886
01:07:04.950 --> 01:07:09.530
887
01:07:09.990 --> 01:07:13.895
I've tried this before. I haven't I haven't gotten a response yet, but I've used,
888
01:07:15.655 --> 01:07:17.435
Thunderhub to try to message,
889
01:07:18.215 --> 01:07:21.675
other nodes. We have keysend. Other nodes on the network. Yeah. Through keysend,
890
01:07:22.560 --> 01:07:25.780
because that's all you really need. You you just need their node identity.
891
01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:29.525
You don't need an email address or anything to technically talk to them
892
01:07:29.845 --> 01:07:36.184
through Keysight, but I never gotten a response back from them. But that's what the the the more mainstream,
893
01:07:37.230 --> 01:07:39.470
894
01:07:40.110 --> 01:07:45.810
we already have over 200 freaks in the tribe, is Sphinx, which uses Keysend to communicate.
895
01:07:46.905 --> 01:07:58.220
896
01:07:58.900 --> 01:08:03.760
897
01:08:04.905 --> 01:08:05.405
898
01:08:05.705 --> 01:08:15.340
I saw I mentioned in the article, but I saw there is a ticket to possibly add a second node to RaspiBlitz. Is is that something that you're actively working on? Where where is that at?
899
01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:22.220
900
01:08:22.875 --> 01:08:24.494
so it would be possible to
901
01:08:24.955 --> 01:08:25.855
run alongside.
902
01:08:26.315 --> 01:08:27.855
And also, I just
903
01:08:28.315 --> 01:08:31.455
didn't make it worse today that you can even parallel
904
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:36.340
on my Raspberry Pi on with 4 gigabytes of RAM, I was able to run
905
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:45.105
Bitcoin mainnet, test that, and sign that at the same time and then have, like, LND and and c lightning on those. So so, you know, it's, technically, it's it's
906
01:08:45.645 --> 01:08:46.385
time impossible.
907
01:08:47.245 --> 01:08:51.090
I mean, the UX part is tricky because then how do you,
908
01:08:51.550 --> 01:08:54.449
you know, how do you know which node you are interacting with?
909
01:08:55.230 --> 01:09:00.155
It works for me in the command line, and it does work now, you know, fairly
910
01:09:00.615 --> 01:09:04.715
well. I've done a, like, a little menu in with that script, which is, in that
911
01:09:06.380 --> 01:09:07.920
issue, in addressable issue.
912
01:09:09.420 --> 01:09:09.920
So
913
01:09:10.860 --> 01:09:11.600
you can
914
01:09:12.460 --> 01:09:13.120
do it
915
01:09:13.455 --> 01:09:16.035
but then obviously you need to look after it. Right? So
916
01:09:16.574 --> 01:09:20.195
because there will be the channel backups you need to save, there will be
917
01:09:21.550 --> 01:09:28.690
the passwords, which would be different. So there's a couple of things you you would need to look after. So it's kind of I left this
918
01:09:28.990 --> 01:09:30.210
as a working
919
01:09:31.175 --> 01:09:32.315
advanced option.
920
01:09:33.735 --> 01:09:38.235
So it's basically it's there. If you want to use it, you can try it. But,
921
01:09:40.130 --> 01:09:42.050
yeah, I I I don't see it I mean
922
01:09:42.610 --> 01:09:53.385
having a menu. Right? And, and, or having, like, a further implementation to the menu system and, like, having a graphical interface and things like that. The clean UX way to handle it, right, is is to just
923
01:09:54.005 --> 01:09:55.545
924
01:09:56.340 --> 01:09:58.520
925
01:09:59.700 --> 01:10:00.200
Exactly.
926
01:10:02.100 --> 01:10:05.880
And, also, yeah, they're a question of torque circuits and stuff like that, but, also,
927
01:10:06.645 --> 01:10:09.065
that's another thing. If you have, like, a separate
928
01:10:09.525 --> 01:10:12.585
nodes but in the same physical place, you know, the
929
01:10:13.330 --> 01:10:25.325
Internet cuts out, and they are done at the same time. And they're Or if, like, Texas loses power, and and all the Texas nodes all go offline at the same time. Yeah. Speaking about, like, your house. Right? Not Texas.
930
01:10:25.785 --> 01:10:30.925
931
01:10:31.320 --> 01:10:33.980
you know, like, a hurricane hits Florida or something,
932
01:10:34.680 --> 01:10:35.980
933
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:46.365
934
01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:50.540
935
01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:54.140
still a good anonymity set with a large area like that.
936
01:10:55.515 --> 01:11:00.575
937
01:11:01.355 --> 01:11:02.975
Texas things. I had a UPS,
938
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:05.260
power supply, but it it
939
01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:11.100
it didn't last long enough through all the rolling blackouts. So, eventually, my Raspi Blitch just
940
01:11:11.925 --> 01:11:19.365
turned off, and and it shut off terribly, and I actually had to restore it, which is another thing I love about Raspi Blitts is that,
941
01:11:20.020 --> 01:11:23.560
every time you upgrade, you basically wipe the device. Right? So it kind of,
942
01:11:24.260 --> 01:11:39.370
you know, teaches you, or at least it it has this, like, built in process where you can feel comfortable knowing you can wipe the device. And as long as you still have that hard drive, you're you're good to go. And as long as you have those even if something happened to that, those static backup channels
943
01:11:39.910 --> 01:11:44.490
are are key. So, I had like, those Texas storms built a lot of confidence
944
01:11:44.805 --> 01:11:47.785
in me for, harassment because of that.
945
01:11:48.245 --> 01:11:50.665
946
01:11:51.285 --> 01:11:52.105
in the comments.
947
01:11:52.950 --> 01:11:59.770
He encapsulated what I was going for for on chain Bitcoin is the prosperity of the commons. It feels like a reverse tragedy of the commons.
948
01:12:01.135 --> 01:12:04.095
But, yeah, I was thinking about the power outages. Like, that's,
949
01:12:05.135 --> 01:12:13.429
I mean, this is the thing about, like, privacy and adversarial thinking and stuff. Like, if you go down far enough down the rabbit hole, you end up in, like, a really depressed
950
01:12:15.585 --> 01:12:19.445
area where you just you you just you just think we're fucked.
951
01:12:19.905 --> 01:12:25.980
And I think it's important for people to, you know, have good vibes on Bitcoin Tuesday. Like, we have to be optimistic here.
952
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:28.780
It'll be a fight, and
953
01:12:29.295 --> 01:12:42.670
and sovereignty is never gonna be easy, and personal responsibility is never gonna be easy. But someone has to do it, and I want that to be us. I don't want that to be someone else. I I think we're the ones who have to do it. So here we are. We need to build the roads, man.
954
01:12:43.050 --> 01:12:44.349
We need to build the roads.
955
01:12:45.715 --> 01:12:55.370
Dude, I just wanna say to both of you guys, just it's it's it's really fucking awesome that episode 21, Cielo Dispatch 21 is with 2 ride or die freaks,
956
01:12:55.850 --> 01:12:59.550
who you guys have both been here from the beginning, for civil dispatch.
957
01:13:01.210 --> 01:13:06.324
And it it it really I I know it started it started last year. It's it's been
958
01:13:06.625 --> 01:13:08.565
it's it's been 2 years now. No.
959
01:13:09.025 --> 01:13:11.685
It's just it's it it started as just
960
01:13:12.460 --> 01:13:14.320
something that, you know, like,
961
01:13:14.780 --> 01:13:19.520
I I I I was either gonna disappear or I was gonna start something new,
962
01:13:20.495 --> 01:13:26.675
and I decided to lean in. And you guys have been there the whole way, so it's just it's just great that you guys are both
963
01:13:27.889 --> 01:13:34.310
964
01:13:35.385 --> 01:13:41.485
965
01:13:41.864 --> 01:13:44.830
966
01:13:45.770 --> 01:13:47.230
So I have a question.
967
01:13:47.690 --> 01:13:49.310
Key send versus l n URL.
968
01:13:50.650 --> 01:13:52.910
So the dispatch is a perfect example.
969
01:13:53.535 --> 01:13:59.315
It's a show that has no sponsors except for the audience. The audience is the sponsor of the show.
970
01:14:00.740 --> 01:14:03.560
It could work with either key send or lnurl.
971
01:14:04.820 --> 01:14:09.960
Why do I have lnurl in my bottom left hand corner instead of a key send URL?
972
01:14:11.765 --> 01:14:13.305
A key send QR code.
973
01:14:14.085 --> 01:14:16.025
974
01:14:16.885 --> 01:14:17.385
975
01:14:17.685 --> 01:14:20.550
Should we talk about let's talk about the trade offs, Open Arms.
976
01:14:23.429 --> 01:14:25.050
977
01:14:26.070 --> 01:14:27.925
978
01:14:28.485 --> 01:14:41.320
979
01:14:41.860 --> 01:14:45.239
So it pings a server when you connect to it to
980
01:14:45.955 --> 01:14:51.735
ask for the invoice which you then pay. It's that's like all in Europe pay in a very very simplified way.
981
01:14:53.315 --> 01:14:53.815
So
982
01:14:54.870 --> 01:14:58.330
it's and that needs to be a publicly accessible endpoint.
983
01:14:58.870 --> 01:15:02.330
So, you know, not everyone has that and you it cannot be just store only.
984
01:15:05.065 --> 01:15:11.405
And it's a trade off for usability because, yeah, it's just very easy to kind of, you know, click and click and pay,
985
01:15:12.185 --> 01:15:12.685
versus
986
01:15:13.540 --> 01:15:15.480
with key sent. I mean,
987
01:15:16.420 --> 01:15:17.320
that is something
988
01:15:19.060 --> 01:15:20.200
again, then you are
989
01:15:20.594 --> 01:15:23.175
sharing your pop key. So that's that is,
990
01:15:24.114 --> 01:15:27.735
I mean, you're sharing the pop key in the invoice which allows you to provide anyway
991
01:15:28.210 --> 01:15:29.750
if you are using your own node,
992
01:15:30.850 --> 01:15:31.350
but
993
01:15:32.370 --> 01:15:46.940
so the information is quite similar with with with a with a pop key as well. I mean, you could put it up and see, you know, how many people would key send to it. I think it's just the the support is not that not that out of the box. So Alenura has better better support because,
994
01:15:47.639 --> 01:15:51.579
you know, people work on it more, and it's it's a quite fun protocol,
995
01:15:52.195 --> 01:15:55.735
especially things like Eleanor of Oath, then you can, you know, verify
996
01:15:56.275 --> 01:16:00.055
your verify an identity without exposing the pub key in that case.
997
01:16:01.140 --> 01:16:02.360
So there are a couple of
998
01:16:04.100 --> 01:16:05.239
other parts of this
999
01:16:05.540 --> 01:16:10.525
Ellen Europe protocol which are which are quite interesting. But I think in the long term, they will probably be,
1000
01:16:12.665 --> 01:16:14.284
replaced by things
1001
01:16:14.824 --> 01:16:16.364
within the lightning protocol.
1002
01:16:18.320 --> 01:16:22.020
1003
01:16:22.400 --> 01:16:22.900
with,
1004
01:16:24.080 --> 01:16:26.260
Allen TX bot, they actually
1005
01:16:26.795 --> 01:16:28.415
do try to shield
1006
01:16:29.115 --> 01:16:35.695
your the destination pub key a little bit by by doing that kind of fake fake private channel, fake public key, at least per user.
1007
01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:38.920
The the thing with that is,
1008
01:16:40.440 --> 01:16:42.700
I I kinda talked about it a little bit, eventually
1009
01:16:43.080 --> 01:16:48.105
repeating that process, you know. If if if there's always this one
1010
01:16:48.965 --> 01:16:54.740
actually, I won't dive into the details there because it it just gets way too nuanced. I I I think it's a it's a good thing that,
1011
01:16:55.220 --> 01:16:55.720
lnurlpro
1012
01:16:57.140 --> 01:16:58.840
that can try to shield,
1013
01:17:00.020 --> 01:17:00.520
your,
1014
01:17:01.855 --> 01:17:03.235
your actual destination,
1015
01:17:03.615 --> 01:17:04.595
your actual node,
1016
01:17:04.975 --> 01:17:12.070
by using the fake private routes, basically. So with keysend, you can't do that because it, like you said, does have that public key
1017
01:17:12.370 --> 01:17:17.030
1018
01:17:18.295 --> 01:17:27.994
LN Europe pay protocol, you can just ask for a route to pay. So like a blinded route even, you know, which is a thing from the future, but then you would just get, like, onion
1019
01:17:28.440 --> 01:17:35.580
packages, which you wouldn't see where they are going. You just, you know, put it put them into a node, and it gets paid.
1020
01:17:36.455 --> 01:17:38.215
1021
01:17:39.255 --> 01:17:45.435
right? Like, the dream is for civil dispatch to be able to receive fully sovereign donations. Right? Like, I'm,
1022
01:17:46.429 --> 01:17:50.690
Fiat Jaffe, who is the maintainer of l n transaction bot,
1023
01:17:51.230 --> 01:17:53.650
is a fucking legend. Shut up. Yeah.
1024
01:17:54.275 --> 01:17:57.815
And I I hope to have him on on dispatch soon.
1025
01:17:58.755 --> 01:18:00.615
I feel like he doesn't get enough credit,
1026
01:18:01.155 --> 01:18:04.520
but here I am. Right? I'm choosing to use
1027
01:18:05.540 --> 01:18:12.280
I'm choosing to use a custodial wallet because I think it's better I think it's better for the privacy of myself and the privacy of the audience.
1028
01:18:13.065 --> 01:18:14.845
But ideally, right, like,
1029
01:18:15.705 --> 01:18:19.485
it it'd be nice if if there was an easy way for me to accept
1030
01:18:21.190 --> 01:18:24.250
support for this show in a more sovereign way.
1031
01:18:24.870 --> 01:18:34.165
1032
01:18:34.864 --> 01:18:39.290
Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a trade off. So you even you can be a bit
1033
01:18:39.990 --> 01:18:43.050
you know, you have the place to ask for
1034
01:18:43.510 --> 01:18:44.490
a more private
1035
01:18:45.125 --> 01:18:51.385
way of paying paying, but you need to have that place. Whereas if you just expose
1036
01:18:54.480 --> 01:19:00.100
a node with a private, a public key, which has, like, a public channel, which is already, you know,
1037
01:19:01.204 --> 01:19:07.945
spread in the gossip in the network graph so people know about it or the wallets know about it, then, you know, it could be paid
1038
01:19:08.400 --> 01:19:11.219
the same way. There is no technical difficulty
1039
01:19:12.400 --> 01:19:19.655
technical limitation to that. But it obviously couldn't have, like, route hints, so it couldn't have, like, private channels and things like that because it would be only just a destination exposed.
1040
01:19:20.195 --> 01:19:23.175
1041
01:19:23.635 --> 01:19:24.135
fiatjaf's
1042
01:19:24.514 --> 01:19:25.014
newest,
1043
01:19:25.570 --> 01:19:26.070
project.
1044
01:19:26.610 --> 01:19:28.390
I don't know if either of you are
1045
01:19:28.770 --> 01:19:31.910
very familiar with it. Immorden, I think, is the pronunciation.
1046
01:19:33.125 --> 01:19:33.625
Yes.
1047
01:19:34.405 --> 01:19:36.185
1048
01:19:37.045 --> 01:19:39.705
1049
01:19:41.210 --> 01:19:41.710
The
1050
01:19:42.330 --> 01:19:44.910
I tease, but don't at the same time. What?
1051
01:19:45.370 --> 01:19:46.430
1052
01:19:46.810 --> 01:19:50.355
You know, I think it's it's a it's a good thing he does fund it.
1053
01:19:50.974 --> 01:19:54.915
1054
01:19:55.295 --> 01:19:57.395
I had a good friend reach out and goes,
1055
01:19:57.719 --> 01:19:59.719
Alan Big can't be a spooked because,
1056
01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:06.060
he funded a more than and I said, yeah. Well, the NSA funds tours, so here we are.
1057
01:20:07.655 --> 01:20:09.815
1058
01:20:10.215 --> 01:20:14.775
tour is there. So, you know, they need the anonymity set of us ours as well. So
1059
01:20:16.080 --> 01:20:22.260
1060
01:20:23.120 --> 01:20:24.340
Is that a good summary?
1061
01:20:25.865 --> 01:20:27.065
1062
01:20:27.465 --> 01:20:32.125
I I don't know enough about, like, the the fine grain details of
1063
01:20:33.305 --> 01:20:43.020
it. But one of the I I I think I I've heard about a few initiatives kinda like this. I forgot what the other one, was called. But this idea of being able to sort of have, like,
1064
01:20:44.355 --> 01:20:49.255
of nodes where inside the cluster, you kind of get this anemic anonymity,
1065
01:20:49.715 --> 01:20:53.820
kind of so when I, you know, I I could be describing this specific project,
1066
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:55.100
incorrectly.
1067
01:20:56.360 --> 01:21:08.094
But I think I'd love the idea of of, like, you know, me as a sender, know, I'm sending into this cluster of nodes, and then I don't know what happens afterwards. It it goes in here. I don't know what node actually receives the funds in the end.
1068
01:21:08.690 --> 01:21:15.670
I I believe that maybe one of the the goals of a Mortem. I could be wrong, but I I think more concepts like that will come out.
1069
01:21:16.815 --> 01:21:28.330
1070
01:21:29.110 --> 01:21:32.489
related to privacy as well, and they have, I mean, they have swaps
1071
01:21:32.790 --> 01:21:33.290
done,
1072
01:21:34.255 --> 01:21:35.235
So noncustal
1073
01:21:35.615 --> 01:21:36.115
noncustorial,
1074
01:21:37.295 --> 01:21:44.460
submarine swaps implemented as well as, like, you know, they use the software what's Exchange is using because it's open source,
1075
01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:46.700
with a different, backend.
1076
01:21:47.080 --> 01:21:47.739
And also
1077
01:21:48.280 --> 01:21:49.340
they have, like, rendezvous
1078
01:21:50.840 --> 01:21:52.060
and trampoline routing.
1079
01:21:54.364 --> 01:21:55.905
Trampoline is working already,
1080
01:21:56.284 --> 01:22:00.304
which is again can be a a trade off but also an improvement.
1081
01:22:01.940 --> 01:22:06.520
So, yeah, the you know, there are a lot of people working on this, and I expect,
1082
01:22:07.700 --> 01:22:08.600
you know, large
1083
01:22:09.025 --> 01:22:14.405
improvements in terms of privacy as well in the in the even next couple of months, but certainly within the years.
1084
01:22:15.265 --> 01:22:17.445
1085
01:22:18.790 --> 01:22:20.490
it's not VHF. Right?
1086
01:22:22.550 --> 01:22:23.210
1087
01:22:23.670 --> 01:22:24.630
you know, he he was
1088
01:22:26.145 --> 01:22:28.165
he might be involved, but he is certainly,
1089
01:22:28.785 --> 01:22:29.925
advertising it.
1090
01:22:30.385 --> 01:22:31.445
But it's the BLW
1091
01:22:32.145 --> 01:22:32.645
people.
1092
01:22:33.330 --> 01:22:37.990
So there is this Bitcoin lightning wallet which has been one of the first and is based on the on
1093
01:22:38.450 --> 01:22:38.950
the
1094
01:22:39.570 --> 01:22:40.070
eclar
1095
01:22:42.065 --> 01:22:42.885
code base.
1096
01:22:45.185 --> 01:22:45.685
And,
1097
01:22:46.465 --> 01:22:47.845
yes, this yes.
1098
01:22:48.225 --> 01:22:52.150
I think. Yeah. The guy who do who is doing it is probably,
1099
01:22:53.570 --> 01:22:55.510
yeah. Anton Kumar Gorodetsky.
1100
01:22:55.969 --> 01:22:59.995
1101
01:23:00.455 --> 01:23:09.869
1102
01:23:10.570 --> 01:23:13.869
1103
01:23:15.345 --> 01:23:18.165
1104
01:23:18.545 --> 01:23:20.085
It's a it's a funny account,
1105
01:23:20.864 --> 01:23:23.950
and I think, you know, they are from different kind of
1106
01:23:24.510 --> 01:23:30.530
at least if this fear, Jeff, you know, is pretending to be in from different parts of the world, so doing very well.
1107
01:23:31.364 --> 01:23:31.864
1108
01:23:32.724 --> 01:23:38.264
we're an hour and a half in here. I think this conversation has been fantastic so far. Freaks,
1109
01:23:38.599 --> 01:23:46.380
I feel like I don't need to remind you since you are the ride or die. Feel free to just post questions into the live chat, whether that's on Twitch,
1110
01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:47.980
Twitter, or YouTube.
1111
01:23:49.625 --> 01:23:55.085
I guess, 6102 has just given up on the KYC, so he just messaged me on Keybase while we're going.
1112
01:23:55.465 --> 01:23:56.765
He wants us to know
1113
01:23:58.220 --> 01:23:58.720
that,
1114
01:23:59.820 --> 01:24:01.680
Moon requires Google Play services,
1115
01:24:02.140 --> 01:24:11.894
which I just take for granted because I've been using Calix OS now, so Micro g also works with it. Yes. But, obviously, we prefer for apps don't require Google Play services,
1116
01:24:12.434 --> 01:24:15.094
even if we can use a open source alternative.
1117
01:24:15.770 --> 01:24:17.630
It's better just not to have that
1118
01:24:18.010 --> 01:24:19.230
dependency period.
1119
01:24:20.890 --> 01:24:22.350
So, I mean, I
1120
01:24:22.735 --> 01:24:25.954
I wanna jump back into privacy, but before we do, I think
1121
01:24:26.255 --> 01:24:27.395
a really cool,
1122
01:24:28.014 --> 01:24:29.474
really cool I mean, it's,
1123
01:24:31.860 --> 01:24:36.040
cool might be the wrong word. A really interesting case study that's happening
1124
01:24:36.900 --> 01:24:39.240
live right now in terms of
1125
01:24:39.860 --> 01:24:40.360
private,
1126
01:24:40.955 --> 01:24:41.695
quote, unquote,
1127
01:24:42.475 --> 01:24:43.775
cryptocurrency transactions
1128
01:24:44.475 --> 01:24:47.455
is we have the largest ransomware attack ever,
1129
01:24:50.600 --> 01:24:51.100
happening
1130
01:24:51.880 --> 01:24:57.020
live. As it as this show is airing, it it has been happening for 2 days now,
1131
01:24:57.555 --> 01:24:59.175
and that's the capital pipeline.
1132
01:25:00.435 --> 01:25:02.375
The largest pipeline in America,
1133
01:25:03.155 --> 01:25:03.975
for gas
1134
01:25:05.450 --> 01:25:11.390
and other petroleum products is is currently being ransomware by the Dark Side Ransomware Group.
1135
01:25:12.490 --> 01:25:12.990
And
1136
01:25:13.435 --> 01:25:16.655
we are seeing gas shortages across the East Coast
1137
01:25:16.955 --> 01:25:18.655
as far down as Louisiana
1138
01:25:18.955 --> 01:25:20.655
and as far up as
1139
01:25:22.440 --> 01:25:23.180
the northeast.
1140
01:25:24.920 --> 01:25:32.965
And what what's really interesting here let let me show you just to the to the people watching the stream. This is this is the capital pipeline. So,
1141
01:25:33.505 --> 01:25:36.645
it is literally just going through all the most,
1142
01:25:39.040 --> 01:25:46.900
I mean, the East Coast is the most dense area of the United States. So as you can see, it just goes down from goes from Texas all the way up to New York,
1143
01:25:47.505 --> 01:25:49.844
and the whole pipeline is shut down right now
1144
01:25:50.385 --> 01:25:50.885
because
1145
01:25:51.585 --> 01:25:52.804
these fucking idiots,
1146
01:25:54.065 --> 01:25:57.580
attach critical infrastructure to the Internet, and they got ransomware.
1147
01:25:59.320 --> 01:26:03.660
What's interesting here is that there's been many articles written on it.
1148
01:26:05.125 --> 01:26:07.065
None of them mentioned Bitcoin specifically,
1149
01:26:09.445 --> 01:26:15.750
and they they if you control f, then none of them say Bitcoin in them. All the reputable articles out of Bloomberg and whatnot,
1150
01:26:17.410 --> 01:26:21.030
Capital Pipeline's own releases, no one mentions Bitcoin specifically.
1151
01:26:21.475 --> 01:26:24.855
And if you if you look at previous DarkSide ransomware,
1152
01:26:26.035 --> 01:26:26.775
they actually,
1153
01:26:27.955 --> 01:26:31.095
usually request both Monero and Bitcoin.
1154
01:26:32.470 --> 01:26:34.330
In the past, they've offered
1155
01:26:35.030 --> 01:26:38.970
a discount of 10% if you pay Monero, but the most recent one,
1156
01:26:39.405 --> 01:26:42.385
they offered a 20% discount if you pay Monero.
1157
01:26:44.285 --> 01:26:47.160
There's a possibility here that this ransomware
1158
01:26:47.700 --> 01:26:51.720
is not asking for Bitcoin at all. They might just be asking for Monero. But regardless,
1159
01:26:52.340 --> 01:26:57.715
let's say that it's like the this past one that I have up on the screen right now, and they're asking for a 20%,
1160
01:26:58.975 --> 01:27:00.675
premium if you pay with Bitcoin.
1161
01:27:02.430 --> 01:27:06.989
What like, does that tell us anything? Is there something we should take from this? Is this, you know
1162
01:27:09.625 --> 01:27:17.005
I mean, these ransomware guys are basically saying that it's gonna cost you 20% more to have private transactions on Bitcoin. Right?
1163
01:27:17.670 --> 01:27:19.930
1164
01:27:22.150 --> 01:27:26.645
1165
01:27:30.225 --> 01:27:35.700
1166
01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:39.780
1167
01:27:41.360 --> 01:27:43.935
1168
01:27:45.675 --> 01:27:49.935
No. That's that's crazy, this this whole situation. I mean, at a certain point, like,
1169
01:27:50.490 --> 01:28:00.825
1170
01:28:01.525 --> 01:28:06.265
Like, it's the what do you think the ransomware request is? It's probably fucking a shit ton.
1171
01:28:07.500 --> 01:28:09.040
1172
01:28:11.340 --> 01:28:12.220
the the attackers
1173
01:28:14.175 --> 01:28:19.074
their virus may not even know who they're, like, targeting. It could just be some
1174
01:28:19.855 --> 01:28:23.590
some guy was watching a YouTube stream and ended up downloading it
1175
01:28:24.070 --> 01:28:25.849
and infecting the whole entire pipeline.
1176
01:28:26.150 --> 01:28:33.764
So I it it it could be a situation where the attackers don't even know that it was this big group that I mean, but the counterargument
1177
01:28:34.304 --> 01:28:36.485
1178
01:28:37.025 --> 01:28:39.824
I think, like, the largest pipeline in America would be back
1179
01:28:40.490 --> 01:28:44.030
would be turned back on. They would just fucking pay the fucking thing. Right?
1180
01:28:45.770 --> 01:28:46.270
1181
01:28:47.744 --> 01:28:49.284
And and, you know, arguably,
1182
01:28:52.145 --> 01:28:57.410
chain analytics companies could offer support and be, like, just just pay the Bitcoin, and we'll try to track them.
1183
01:28:59.250 --> 01:29:01.750
You know, but I I do agree, like, they they,
1184
01:29:02.050 --> 01:29:07.270
at a certain point, just just pay the damn thing. They probably don't wanna set a terrible precedent though.
1185
01:29:07.715 --> 01:29:14.055
1186
01:29:14.970 --> 01:29:17.470
and it's it's based on the
1187
01:29:18.490 --> 01:29:21.870
the the the other largest ransomware attack that they're aware of.
1188
01:29:22.675 --> 01:29:23.895
They requested $30,000,000
1189
01:29:24.595 --> 01:29:31.815
whether that was through Monero or Bitcoin, and it actually got negotiated down to 11,000,000. So there's a really good article by Krebs,
1190
01:29:33.940 --> 01:29:35.719
which I will post in the chat.
1191
01:29:36.340 --> 01:29:37.960
But if you go to Krebs on security.com,
1192
01:29:39.060 --> 01:29:41.080
it'll be the most recent blog post.
1193
01:29:41.895 --> 01:29:47.594
And and he he basically analyzes what we know from that previous ransomware. One thing that's interesting is
1194
01:29:49.640 --> 01:29:51.740
I'm pretty sure Darkseid is
1195
01:29:52.680 --> 01:29:55.820
on the sanctions list, so I wonder if
1196
01:29:57.325 --> 01:30:01.745
they're not legally allowed to pay the ransom regardless of what the price is.
1197
01:30:03.005 --> 01:30:03.985
1198
01:30:06.489 --> 01:30:10.190
1199
01:30:11.755 --> 01:30:15.215
my cohost on rabbit hole recap, and we're gonna talk about this on Thursday,
1200
01:30:17.034 --> 01:30:22.280
had a bent where he said he said maybe it's a false flag, but I I, you know, I think our infrastructure
1201
01:30:22.739 --> 01:30:23.719
is so fucking
1202
01:30:24.739 --> 01:30:25.239
vulnerable
1203
01:30:25.699 --> 01:30:26.199
that
1204
01:30:27.219 --> 01:30:32.265
it doesn't really surprise me that we have a whole pipeline down because of this shit. Like, it it
1205
01:30:34.965 --> 01:30:40.585
doesn't my my my my immediate thought is incompetence, not not false flag here.
1206
01:30:41.250 --> 01:30:46.630
1207
01:30:47.410 --> 01:30:48.310
that got hacked
1208
01:30:51.045 --> 01:30:59.590
1209
01:31:00.130 --> 01:31:03.670
Wasn't that what it was? Better. At least it wasn't ransomware.
1210
01:31:06.445 --> 01:31:09.905
I I don't know. This whole thing is, like, pretty crazy just watching it unfold,
1211
01:31:11.805 --> 01:31:18.000
and it's just interesting how you don't hear any we don't know any of the specifics. They want they they refuse to tell us any of the specifics.
1212
01:31:18.699 --> 01:31:20.560
1213
01:31:21.260 --> 01:31:21.760
how
1214
01:31:23.465 --> 01:31:26.605
reasonable it is to kind of be able to change the infrastructure.
1215
01:31:27.785 --> 01:31:29.245
So what do they need?
1216
01:31:30.185 --> 01:31:32.285
Is the data that valuable? That's the question.
1217
01:31:33.260 --> 01:31:34.559
I mean, the time is probably.
1218
01:31:35.500 --> 01:31:41.020
But, you know, the longer they go on, the worse it gets. There's gas stations without any gas right now,
1219
01:31:41.615 --> 01:31:44.575
1220
01:31:46.575 --> 01:31:55.289
like, how how high could the ransom be? Like, just fucking I guess, you just you should just pay it. Like, this this is one of the interesting things about these ransomware groups is that they're actually
1221
01:31:55.590 --> 01:32:01.435
they, like, work on, like, a web of trust system. Like, they they almost always will give you the decryption key
1222
01:32:01.895 --> 01:32:06.315
Yeah. If you pay because if they don't, they know they're not gonna get from the next person.
1223
01:32:08.490 --> 01:32:20.505
1224
01:32:21.125 --> 01:32:28.570
the means of, payment that they want, do you do you think it's maybe a good thing in this scenario that that that part isn't getting coverage,
1225
01:32:29.110 --> 01:32:31.849
not just on from the price perspective, but,
1226
01:32:32.305 --> 01:32:36.725
I mean, that's just more FUD that we have to try to tackle or or, you know, maybe it's not.
1227
01:32:37.905 --> 01:32:42.929
So I I don't know. What's your opinion on the fact that if it is Bitcoin that they're trying to accept,
1228
01:32:44.190 --> 01:32:49.730
1229
01:32:52.155 --> 01:32:56.735
like, will take any chance any chance they get to throw some FUD our way.
1230
01:32:57.755 --> 01:33:01.360
So I feel like if they could FUD Bitcoin, they would FUD Bitcoin on it.
1231
01:33:02.380 --> 01:33:02.880
And
1232
01:33:03.580 --> 01:33:05.440
one interesting aspect of Monero
1233
01:33:06.425 --> 01:33:07.245
is and
1234
01:33:07.784 --> 01:33:12.765
and and this is just, like, the current state of Bitcoin Twitter and probably also just because I have
1235
01:33:13.290 --> 01:33:16.350
such a large platform on Bitcoin Twitter, is that
1236
01:33:16.810 --> 01:33:28.965
I wanted to talk about this on Twitter yesterday, but I just didn't really feel comfortable about it because I just knew I was gonna get attacked from, like, every fucking side if I just even fucking mentioned it. So that's why I waited for an hour and a half into this show because
1237
01:33:29.585 --> 01:33:31.870
most of those people will not make it to this point.
1238
01:33:34.430 --> 01:33:34.930
The
1239
01:33:35.710 --> 01:33:39.410
my thought is that this ransom is just completely in Monero,
1240
01:33:40.190 --> 01:33:40.690
and
1241
01:33:42.395 --> 01:33:47.454
one of the interesting things is the US Marshals Service who has been auctioning off Bitcoin this whole time,
1242
01:33:47.915 --> 01:33:50.574
they refused they will not auction off Monero.
1243
01:33:51.650 --> 01:33:54.310
And the reason is because is is because
1244
01:33:54.690 --> 01:33:56.790
basically, it's because they think, basically,
1245
01:33:57.330 --> 01:34:01.575
Monero usage is is inherently criminal. It's only for privacy focused users.
1246
01:34:02.595 --> 01:34:06.375
So allowing Monero back into the system is like,
1247
01:34:07.715 --> 01:34:09.495
seizing cocaine and then
1248
01:34:10.060 --> 01:34:11.200
auctioning it off.
1249
01:34:11.820 --> 01:34:18.560
So they won't auction off Monero, and I could see them being extra strict about paying ransoms in Monero versus Bitcoin,
1250
01:34:19.284 --> 01:34:25.144
for the exact reason you said. Because if they pay Bitcoin, then they can have a whole team there trying to trace it. Even though I don't think
1251
01:34:25.525 --> 01:34:29.110
I think if you're a sophisticated actor, you can use Bitcoin privately relatively
1252
01:34:29.570 --> 01:34:33.590
not relatively easily, but easy enough. You know, it'll cost them
1253
01:34:34.050 --> 01:34:40.045
less than 20%, but it'll cost them a little bit extra money, but they can use it in a in a relatively private way,
1254
01:34:40.505 --> 01:34:42.525
if they're sophisticated and they're patient.
1255
01:34:43.305 --> 01:34:44.445
I think maybe
1256
01:34:45.040 --> 01:34:51.060
these large corporations would be more susceptible to paying it in Bitcoin rather than Monero, and maybe that's why
1257
01:34:53.195 --> 01:35:01.855
maybe that's why we haven't heard anything. That that, like, seems reasonable to me. Or maybe the premium that they're asking is, like, 30 or 40% this time, and they still offer the option.
1258
01:35:03.980 --> 01:35:06.480
1259
01:35:07.260 --> 01:35:09.360
not selling not auctioning off
1260
01:35:09.745 --> 01:35:18.965
Monero. Do do they just do they do they actually burn it then? Or They're hobble. I guess we wouldn't know. And if, yeah, they're if they're hobblers, then then They keep keep it for customs.
1261
01:35:19.480 --> 01:35:24.780
1262
01:35:25.400 --> 01:35:29.020
1263
01:35:32.005 --> 01:35:38.185
1264
01:35:39.390 --> 01:35:44.210
We will be talking about it on rabbit hole recap. We will continue to talk about it on sale and dispatch as well.
1265
01:35:45.765 --> 01:35:50.805
1266
01:35:51.605 --> 01:35:54.185
can you spin this the other way? Like, that obviously,
1267
01:35:56.260 --> 01:35:57.239
it is not Bitcoin
1268
01:35:57.540 --> 01:36:01.160
making this possible. It's the digital infrastructure and their bad
1269
01:36:01.620 --> 01:36:04.440
OPSEC is which is making the attack possible.
1270
01:36:04.820 --> 01:36:05.320
So
1271
01:36:05.685 --> 01:36:06.185
actually
1272
01:36:06.645 --> 01:36:08.425
having a private way to pay it
1273
01:36:08.885 --> 01:36:11.945
or I mean, I'm talk talk about just having Bitcoin
1274
01:36:12.324 --> 01:36:14.744
available, but even, you know, speaking
1275
01:36:15.240 --> 01:36:17.980
for Monero in that sense as well, that is small private
1276
01:36:18.360 --> 01:36:18.860
that,
1277
01:36:19.880 --> 01:36:21.660
it makes it possible to pay it.
1278
01:36:22.120 --> 01:36:31.625
Yeah. I mean, I think Is it is it not a good thing then? I I It's available as a tool. Right? Yeah. I mean, I think the law the adversity attack itself is terrible. You know what I'm saying?
1279
01:36:31.925 --> 01:36:32.585
1280
01:36:33.180 --> 01:36:33.920
the logical,
1281
01:36:34.780 --> 01:36:39.360
understanding is that good money is is useful for criminals as well.
1282
01:36:39.820 --> 01:36:41.500
Right? No one no one says
1283
01:36:42.475 --> 01:36:46.494
if if if you get kidnapped and you have to pay the the ransom in
1284
01:36:46.955 --> 01:36:51.935
in US dollars and a duffle bag, no one's like US dollars caused this kidnapping. Right?
1285
01:36:53.280 --> 01:36:54.820
These are if anything,
1286
01:36:55.520 --> 01:36:57.220
you know, the ransomware
1287
01:36:58.240 --> 01:37:04.015
attacks that we've seen because because because you actually have a money that you can you can pay them off in, historically, it's been Bitcoin,
1288
01:37:06.395 --> 01:37:13.180
make our systems more secure. Right? Because they're exposing vulnerabilities that were already there. They just couldn't be monetized in the past, so they were secretly,
1289
01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:20.815
being used. Right? Like, they were they were secretly being used by enemy governments and enemy corporations
1290
01:37:21.195 --> 01:37:23.295
and and malicious individuals altogether.
1291
01:37:23.994 --> 01:37:27.855
And because there's there's an incentive to monetize those attacks,
1292
01:37:28.220 --> 01:37:31.760
we're being made aware of how vulnerable our infrastructure really is.
1293
01:37:32.940 --> 01:37:34.480
All that said, Open Arms,
1294
01:37:35.180 --> 01:37:37.200
I don't really see the boomers in government,
1295
01:37:38.035 --> 01:37:41.895
going that logical route. I I do see this being used as
1296
01:37:42.355 --> 01:37:43.335
a FUD fuel.
1297
01:37:44.115 --> 01:37:47.869
Yeah. I would push back though if we do find out
1298
01:37:48.489 --> 01:37:51.310
if we do find out that this ransomware was Monero only,
1299
01:37:52.145 --> 01:38:01.730
there's gonna be a shit ton of compliance bros that come out, and they're like, Bitcoin is is better because we it doesn't support these ransomware things or whatever.
1300
01:38:02.510 --> 01:38:05.650
And I I I think it's a canary in the coal mine type of situation.
1301
01:38:06.065 --> 01:38:08.005
I think we should be worried if
1302
01:38:08.305 --> 01:38:09.285
the most sophisticated,
1303
01:38:10.545 --> 01:38:11.045
wealthiest,
1304
01:38:12.465 --> 01:38:13.605
actors in
1305
01:38:14.320 --> 01:38:16.260
in private digital transactions
1306
01:38:16.560 --> 01:38:18.420
are moving to a different currency
1307
01:38:18.800 --> 01:38:23.219
is something that we should all be aware of, and we should be actively trying to improve
1308
01:38:23.575 --> 01:38:24.955
Bitcoin in that respect.
1309
01:38:25.335 --> 01:38:26.075
1310
01:38:26.614 --> 01:38:32.155
1311
01:38:32.820 --> 01:38:35.640
Because I have my raspy blitz on my own network.
1312
01:38:36.180 --> 01:38:40.360
If if funds go missing on there, I know I've been owned.
1313
01:38:41.255 --> 01:38:46.155
So it kinda puts a price on it puts the price on data. I would I would rather
1314
01:38:46.695 --> 01:38:54.340
know that someone was on my network and took my funds than than know that someone's on my network listening, and I don't even know
1315
01:38:54.800 --> 01:39:10.540
they exist, and they just watch. And and exactly, like, what if, you know, today, we're putting a price on we're putting a price on that virus. And and if they are trying to accept Bitcoin, Monero, whatever, it's ransomware, so they're trying to accept something. We're putting a price on that and trying to incentivize
1316
01:39:11.800 --> 01:39:13.420
1317
01:39:14.085 --> 01:39:17.465
1318
01:39:17.765 --> 01:39:22.105
which is another government, like, what, blowing up a pipeline if they could.
1319
01:39:22.660 --> 01:39:25.960
You know. So I I think it's better that it's monetized instead of
1320
01:39:26.420 --> 01:39:28.680
for extremely malicious purposes.
1321
01:39:29.460 --> 01:39:35.225
1322
01:39:36.485 --> 01:39:43.230
Reddit. Never used Reddit anymore, but there's this one nim on Reddit who just insisted that every time you spin up a new cloud server,
1323
01:39:43.610 --> 01:39:46.830
you should just put a hot wallet on it of, like, at least $10,000
1324
01:39:47.450 --> 01:39:53.225
because you're just, like, you're just putting a nice low floor there that if if just the casual
1325
01:39:53.765 --> 01:39:58.825
attacker just comes through, they'll probably just take your take your money. And and since then,
1326
01:39:59.290 --> 01:40:04.590
on all my computers, you know, I I I keep a I keep a little bit of a hot wallet there,
1327
01:40:04.969 --> 01:40:15.340
just to be like a nice little canary in the coal mine. Like, if if you come in, you're gonna have to have a low time preference if you wanna actively surveil me because you're just gonna have this thing sitting here. Is it is it the wallet dot dot?
1328
01:40:16.440 --> 01:40:26.245
Is the wall well, yeah. Just you just got, like, a nice little wallet dot dot. If you wanna keylog me or whatever, just the money is sitting there. And I was like, you're just gonna have to fucking either not take it or,
1329
01:40:26.785 --> 01:40:31.205
take it and let me know that you that you've compromised the system. I think it's kind of a cool little,
1330
01:40:32.179 --> 01:40:32.679
aspect.
1331
01:40:33.540 --> 01:40:38.210
1332
01:40:38.775 --> 01:40:44.395
1333
01:40:45.255 --> 01:40:46.875
once once they hit the machine.
1334
01:40:47.255 --> 01:40:47.415
The
1335
01:40:48.390 --> 01:40:55.210
I mean, all my all my real funds are not connected to this machine, so just keep that in mind, attackers that are listening right now.
1336
01:40:55.590 --> 01:40:57.130
1337
01:40:57.590 --> 01:40:58.090
multisig,
1338
01:40:58.455 --> 01:41:00.475
which, you know, you lost the keys for.
1339
01:41:02.375 --> 01:41:02.875
1340
01:41:04.615 --> 01:41:05.835
should we talk about,
1341
01:41:06.455 --> 01:41:08.315
we we in the Sphinx tribe,
1342
01:41:08.920 --> 01:41:10.860
there was a lot of talk about seed XOR
1343
01:41:11.480 --> 01:41:13.100
Oh. Versus multisig.
1344
01:41:15.615 --> 01:41:18.675
Some person in the chat wants to borrow my laptop real quick.
1345
01:41:20.175 --> 01:41:20.675
The,
1346
01:41:22.735 --> 01:41:24.035
seed XOR versus,
1347
01:41:25.310 --> 01:41:25.810
multisig.
1348
01:41:26.750 --> 01:41:29.970
Open Arms, you wanna go through the different trade offs between the 2 of them?
1349
01:41:30.830 --> 01:41:40.105
1350
01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:42.580
1351
01:41:45.360 --> 01:41:45.860
1352
01:41:47.600 --> 01:41:53.645
1353
01:41:54.025 --> 01:42:00.510
or you could do multiple. You can even do more than that. So you could do 10 seeds, and you need all the pieces. So it's almost like,
1354
01:42:01.230 --> 01:42:01.730
Shamir's
1355
01:42:02.270 --> 01:42:04.050
it's like Shamir's secret sharding,
1356
01:42:06.405 --> 01:42:06.905
but
1357
01:42:07.925 --> 01:42:08.425
each
1358
01:42:08.804 --> 01:42:11.385
each secret is also BIP 39 compliant.
1359
01:42:13.100 --> 01:42:18.560
How how did I do and and I guess it's it's it's easier to do. You can just do it, like, on on paper by yourself,
1360
01:42:19.340 --> 01:42:27.824
to prove that that it worked rather than with Shamir's is, like, a little bit more complicated to verify. What do you what do you think about that explanation, Open Arms?
1361
01:42:28.900 --> 01:42:33.720
1362
01:42:34.340 --> 01:42:35.240
correct. Yes.
1363
01:42:37.605 --> 01:42:54.965
1364
01:42:55.665 --> 01:42:58.245
to begin with, but if you have a seed that you trust,
1365
01:42:58.545 --> 01:43:00.725
actually turning it into seed XOR,
1366
01:43:01.850 --> 01:43:04.750
is a relatively easy process that you can do on your own.
1367
01:43:05.130 --> 01:43:08.510
1368
01:43:09.685 --> 01:43:11.545
1369
01:43:11.845 --> 01:43:25.270
1370
01:43:25.755 --> 01:43:26.415
to sign,
1371
01:43:28.315 --> 01:43:28.815
but
1372
01:43:29.515 --> 01:43:30.015
the,
1373
01:43:32.315 --> 01:43:36.880
the benefit over single sig is, like, instead of having just a straight clear text,
1374
01:43:37.900 --> 01:43:54.880
you know, seed plate or something like that, a metal plate that has your seed, you'd have multiple of them. But but there's no redundancy, so you have to you have to have all the secrets. Otherwise, you're you're shit out of luck, like shmear. Yeah. What what what is nice is that it can be done retroactively. So you already have a seed
1375
01:43:55.760 --> 01:43:58.739
1376
01:44:00.239 --> 01:44:02.285
difference with, like, using a big
1377
01:44:02.765 --> 01:44:15.079
a good pass phrase. Right? I mean in that case you have 2 parts. You have the pass phrase and you have the seed, and you combine them you have the wallet. But with this one, I mean first of all you can use as many parts as you like and also
1378
01:44:15.540 --> 01:44:18.760
you can break down your seed which is already existing.
1379
01:44:19.875 --> 01:44:20.855
So you
1380
01:44:21.635 --> 01:44:23.335
you can destroy that one backup
1381
01:44:24.115 --> 01:44:25.175
after you have
1382
01:44:25.795 --> 01:44:27.335
obviously breaking down
1383
01:44:28.280 --> 01:44:32.059
have, distributed into these source seeds and
1384
01:44:32.360 --> 01:44:33.260
seed source
1385
01:44:34.119 --> 01:44:34.619
and,
1386
01:44:36.345 --> 01:44:39.085
you know, verify that you can recover, you can just
1387
01:44:39.545 --> 01:44:44.685
destroy that original seed and you can have only have this kind of seed source
1388
01:44:46.060 --> 01:44:49.440
stored in, you know, different places or in in multiplies.
1389
01:44:49.980 --> 01:44:55.775
It's, yeah, it's it's very nice thing to have if you if you ever worry about that you have only 1
1390
01:44:56.155 --> 01:45:00.094
seed which you didn't break up, you shouldn't, like, cut into 3 pieces.
1391
01:45:00.395 --> 01:45:02.014
Rather, you should do this.
1392
01:45:06.469 --> 01:45:08.489
1393
01:45:09.429 --> 01:45:11.130
it creates plausible deniability
1394
01:45:11.755 --> 01:45:14.975
everyone who uses a cold card or anything else that supports it,
1395
01:45:16.635 --> 01:45:17.775
and I like that
1396
01:45:18.235 --> 01:45:19.695
it's a relatively easy
1397
01:45:20.300 --> 01:45:20.800
improvement
1398
01:45:21.180 --> 01:45:25.520
that a single sig user can do. So so multisig is still the,
1399
01:45:26.380 --> 01:45:27.360
gold standard,
1400
01:45:29.125 --> 01:45:34.105
but, we've acknowledged on the show many times that there's still a lot of complexities with multisig.
1401
01:45:35.125 --> 01:45:39.630
I think it's just significantly easier than it's ever been, and it will continue to get easier.
1402
01:45:40.410 --> 01:45:45.275
And I think a lot of those concerns are overblown, but but it it definitely is more complex. I mean,
1403
01:45:46.155 --> 01:45:49.215
I don't know how many newcomers you guys have onboarded recently,
1404
01:45:50.475 --> 01:45:54.495
but, we definitely live in a little fucking bubble. Like, it is.
1405
01:45:56.190 --> 01:45:58.210
1406
01:45:58.990 --> 01:46:03.715
governance purposes, like when you actually need to have 3 people controlling funds
1407
01:46:04.514 --> 01:46:08.135
and only, you know, 2 hours of the street can make a transaction.
1408
01:46:08.514 --> 01:46:09.175
That is
1409
01:46:09.715 --> 01:46:29.145
a a very good way to kind of, you know, govern, like, family funds or, like, a small company or and and and obviously you can, you can extend this to higher numbers, not infinite, but, you know, reasonably high. And and You can also use it in combination. You can you can seed XOR 1 of the multisig seeds. This is a backup improvement,
1410
01:46:30.760 --> 01:46:32.300
where you don't need to put
1411
01:46:32.760 --> 01:46:34.060
all your seed
1412
01:46:34.520 --> 01:46:35.020
into
1413
01:46:37.195 --> 01:46:40.315
a wallet. I'm I'm I'm into into one place, but I'm not,
1414
01:46:40.955 --> 01:46:41.775
yeah, I mean,
1415
01:46:42.475 --> 01:46:45.055
it sounds to me because it's
1416
01:46:46.300 --> 01:46:52.480
it's not derived information but it's actually combining it that you know it's cryptographically safe as well so it's it's
1417
01:46:53.425 --> 01:46:55.605
I cannot compare it to, like, you know, how,
1418
01:46:57.505 --> 01:47:01.125
compare it to, like, you know, Shamir Shamir Sikorshearing, but
1419
01:47:02.950 --> 01:47:11.290
I would think that it is, you know, comparable to that in kind of in in terms of security. So if you have one plate, you have no chance of recovering
1420
01:47:13.245 --> 01:47:16.304
the whole seed without the other one. So
1421
01:47:16.685 --> 01:47:19.344
that that that is good. And in terms of redundancy,
1422
01:47:19.645 --> 01:47:21.265
I mean, you can do
1423
01:47:21.990 --> 01:47:22.890
you can use
1424
01:47:23.990 --> 01:47:25.930
methods of backups and combine them
1425
01:47:26.390 --> 01:47:28.010
to have redundant packages
1426
01:47:29.595 --> 01:47:35.455
without using mode sig, still with your single sig. But, I mean, at least the the scheme I've been
1427
01:47:37.980 --> 01:47:38.480
studying
1428
01:47:39.099 --> 01:47:44.845
and, like, kind of writing down that at least it's it's using pass phrase as well. So,
1429
01:47:45.405 --> 01:47:48.065
you know, if you don't haven't used the pass phrase,
1430
01:47:48.685 --> 01:47:50.625
you you cannot use that kind of thing.
1431
01:47:53.230 --> 01:48:02.765
So the yeah. So the best thing is that, you know, you just have a seed which you haven't circulated passphrase and you feel uneasy. Well, you can you can use it in combination with passphrase
1432
01:48:03.304 --> 01:48:10.284
too. Yes. You can do. You can do. But what I'm saying is that you don't need to move the funds to to secure them more with this method.
1433
01:48:10.700 --> 01:48:20.320
1434
01:48:20.765 --> 01:48:23.585
your complexity is going to be what kills you
1435
01:48:24.045 --> 01:48:24.945
Yeah. More
1436
01:48:25.485 --> 01:48:27.745
than, you know, an adversarial attacker.
1437
01:48:28.360 --> 01:48:30.700
1438
01:48:31.640 --> 01:48:33.260
the dead man's switch.
1439
01:48:33.960 --> 01:48:36.940
1440
01:48:37.625 --> 01:48:39.565
1441
01:48:40.185 --> 01:48:40.685
1442
01:48:41.545 --> 01:48:45.245
Well, just documenting things, backing up things is a privacy risk,
1443
01:48:47.770 --> 01:48:50.910
but that you have to balance because you should back up things. The
1444
01:48:52.650 --> 01:48:53.150
yeah.
1445
01:48:53.690 --> 01:48:59.775
I I so I had I had someone message me individually. I just want the freaks to know, per the previous conversation,
1446
01:49:00.315 --> 01:49:06.239
that I operate under the assumption that my device is already owned. Okay, guys? So there there is no,
1447
01:49:08.880 --> 01:49:19.365
if if if you wanna attack my fucking computer, have at it, but just know that I'm already assuming that there's, like, 4 different attackers already on the device. So just operate under that assumption.
1448
01:49:19.825 --> 01:49:21.505
1449
01:49:21.985 --> 01:49:22.885
best advice.
1450
01:49:25.460 --> 01:49:27.320
1451
01:49:31.140 --> 01:49:31.880
1452
01:49:34.455 --> 01:49:39.115
Yeah. I I I kinda wanted to highlight, at least in in this scenario, I've I've watched
1453
01:49:40.295 --> 01:49:40.970
the the
1454
01:49:49.715 --> 01:49:55.815
1455
01:49:56.434 --> 01:49:59.574
which is the most volume exchange still to date. Most volume
1456
01:50:00.260 --> 01:50:03.640
spot exchange, and then we have the good guys underneath, which is BISK.
1457
01:50:04.740 --> 01:50:09.864
1458
01:50:10.165 --> 01:50:11.704
have more liquidity in euro.
1459
01:50:12.724 --> 01:50:20.310
Maybe. But then then it would be 2 different currencies displayed, so it's just not clean. They were just pointing it out that, you know, there's a lot of,
1460
01:50:21.030 --> 01:50:25.155
there are multiple currencies happening, and they have completely different kind of order books.
1461
01:50:26.094 --> 01:50:30.195
1462
01:50:30.895 --> 01:50:37.130
but that would be really surprising if I displayed that. Yeah. It's, like, 80% of their volume is the Monero Bitcoin order book.
1463
01:50:37.750 --> 01:50:38.250
Wow.
1464
01:50:38.949 --> 01:50:42.170
Okay. Which is why they have a fork happening right now,
1465
01:50:42.545 --> 01:50:43.825
and it's like a
1466
01:50:44.305 --> 01:50:47.285
Is it It's a real Yeah. They have their own v cache happening.
1467
01:50:47.985 --> 01:50:54.080
1468
01:50:55.900 --> 01:50:56.720
to be based
1469
01:50:57.315 --> 01:51:00.534
on Monero. Right? This have a new project, is that it?
1470
01:51:00.914 --> 01:51:01.414
1471
01:51:02.034 --> 01:51:08.030
Yeah. I don't know I don't know exactly. It is it is definitely a principle for it, because if if the goal is to just,
1472
01:51:08.409 --> 01:51:09.869
create a platform for
1473
01:51:10.250 --> 01:51:10.750
Bitcoin,
1474
01:51:11.210 --> 01:51:12.489
Monero swaps, then,
1475
01:51:13.210 --> 01:51:20.495
I don't know why you would just I don't know why you'd use the Biscope base. Like, the Biscope base is designed in a way to handle fiat trades.
1476
01:51:21.995 --> 01:51:25.935
I feel like you can do it more streamlined if you didn't wanna handle fiat trades, but
1477
01:51:27.130 --> 01:51:29.710
not my fight, and I will not be fighting that.
1478
01:51:31.690 --> 01:51:39.855
You wanna talk about Taproot? Are you guys optimistic on Taproot? We have a new difficulty adjustment about to happen. Is it gonna get activated in the next difficulty adjustment?
1479
01:51:40.715 --> 01:51:41.215
No.
1480
01:51:42.489 --> 01:51:43.869
1481
01:51:44.329 --> 01:51:44.829
now?
1482
01:51:45.769 --> 01:51:46.670
1483
01:51:47.130 --> 01:51:47.789
It's like,
1484
01:51:48.650 --> 01:51:49.550
seriously something.
1485
01:51:51.135 --> 01:51:52.195
1486
01:51:53.775 --> 01:51:56.515
1487
01:51:57.910 --> 01:52:01.290
1488
01:52:01.830 --> 01:52:03.210
is at 35, but
1489
01:52:03.885 --> 01:52:05.505
we had some recent adjustments,
1490
01:52:05.885 --> 01:52:09.665
recent people signaling. I think pull in wasn't fully signaling at first.
1491
01:52:10.045 --> 01:52:12.950
Now they are. So the current total is 54.35%.
1492
01:52:15.570 --> 01:52:16.070
1493
01:52:16.530 --> 01:52:22.855
1494
01:52:23.475 --> 01:52:26.535
1495
01:52:28.115 --> 01:52:30.135
Yeah. Which people did last time.
1496
01:52:30.630 --> 01:52:32.490
1497
01:52:33.110 --> 01:52:36.170
is at one signal block out of a 142.
1498
01:52:36.870 --> 01:52:38.010
What's up with that?
1499
01:52:39.015 --> 01:52:43.575
1500
01:52:44.855 --> 01:52:48.555
when we get really close, if if they switch what they signal,
1501
01:52:49.480 --> 01:52:51.260
they're gonna actually affect the price.
1502
01:52:51.560 --> 01:52:56.940
Last time it was extra bad because Segway was also being activated on Litecoin, and f two pool had
1503
01:52:57.284 --> 01:52:59.784
majority over on Litecoin as well.
1504
01:53:00.485 --> 01:53:04.940
So they were changing their signaling on both and affecting the prices of both
1505
01:53:05.420 --> 01:53:07.120
as they got closer to activation.
1506
01:53:08.460 --> 01:53:10.800
So I would be who have everyone to expect,
1507
01:53:12.140 --> 01:53:18.055
that we're gonna see, you know, them fucking around with us. As as we get closer, the incentive becomes more and more.
1508
01:53:20.755 --> 01:53:21.255
Francis,
1509
01:53:22.510 --> 01:53:23.810
Francis of Bull Bitcoin,
1510
01:53:24.590 --> 01:53:25.090
he,
1511
01:53:26.430 --> 01:53:28.750
made a very interesting point that, you know, there's
1512
01:53:29.310 --> 01:53:30.210
no one remembers
1513
01:53:30.815 --> 01:53:34.435
the the guys who signaled in between. Like, everyone remembers
1514
01:53:34.975 --> 01:53:42.050
the first guys to signal and the last guys to signal when the activation is, like, really fucking tight. So the the incentive in the middle is kind of,
1515
01:53:44.370 --> 01:53:48.230
just not as strong. So I I do expect fuck arounds to happen.
1516
01:53:48.735 --> 01:53:49.395
1517
01:53:49.775 --> 01:53:51.235
1518
01:53:51.535 --> 01:54:01.690
you know, going on Twitter and saying, hey, guys, should we signal and and that kind of bullshit. Do you think they're trying to save the day at the end and say, yes, guys. We're we're the reason,
1519
01:54:02.070 --> 01:54:04.250
you know, kind of a publicity stunt?
1520
01:54:04.685 --> 01:54:09.265
1521
01:54:11.085 --> 01:54:14.510
all I can say is we have all these proof of stake currencies coming out,
1522
01:54:15.710 --> 01:54:22.370
that are gonna have KYC regulated fucking cut exchanges as their main security providers of the network, so
1523
01:54:22.835 --> 01:54:28.115
they can have fun staying poor with that. Like, that's not gonna be a a pleasant thing. At least Binance is,
1524
01:54:28.835 --> 01:54:32.510
what is Binance percentage right now? They're, like, fucking nothing. 0%.
1525
01:54:33.929 --> 01:54:34.429
1526
01:54:34.889 --> 01:54:35.389
1527
01:54:36.250 --> 01:54:37.630
Oh, yeah. Binance pool,
1528
01:54:38.489 --> 01:54:51.120
which is, you know, if if it was if it was proof of stake, Binance would be significantly higher than that. Yeah. Imagine price. I I didn't even know they were they were a Bitcoin pull until
1529
01:54:51.420 --> 01:54:52.960
1530
01:54:54.700 --> 01:54:56.320
1531
01:54:57.955 --> 01:54:59.575
So, Anthony, me and you,
1532
01:55:00.275 --> 01:55:04.695
we kind of, like, flirted on Twitter about it. I called you out on the show a bunch of times.
1533
01:55:06.180 --> 01:55:13.480
You wanna talk about lightning pool and and the rates that they're offering and how that affects with, you know, fee market and whatnot?
1534
01:55:14.465 --> 01:55:15.105
1535
01:55:17.185 --> 01:55:20.465
I've been playing around for a little bit. I'm not, like, a super pro at it,
1536
01:55:21.105 --> 01:55:21.605
but
1537
01:55:22.145 --> 01:55:23.125
one of the things,
1538
01:55:26.220 --> 01:55:32.480
when when pull originally launched, and I've been watching the charts, there's a Twitter handle, I think it's just lightning pull,
1539
01:55:32.785 --> 01:55:33.525
an unofficial,
1540
01:55:34.705 --> 01:55:35.205
Twitter.
1541
01:55:35.745 --> 01:55:39.285
You know, we we we're seeing rates anywhere between, you know,
1542
01:55:39.985 --> 01:55:40.485
3%,
1543
01:55:41.265 --> 01:55:43.130
to all the way to, like, 20.
1544
01:55:43.510 --> 01:55:46.570
I think some extreme cases even even above that.
1545
01:55:47.910 --> 01:55:48.410
And,
1546
01:55:48.950 --> 01:55:50.570
you know, as of as of recently,
1547
01:55:51.635 --> 01:55:55.094
you know, I joined in and and I've got, like, a,
1548
01:55:57.555 --> 01:55:58.375
like, a
1549
01:55:58.980 --> 01:56:01.000
a few, like, 10 to 15%
1550
01:56:01.380 --> 01:56:06.200
rates, which, were pretty good. I I were I was able to lease channels for about that much.
1551
01:56:08.025 --> 01:56:09.805
What ended up happening to me,
1552
01:56:10.985 --> 01:56:13.245
was that we got into that situation
1553
01:56:13.705 --> 01:56:16.685
where, you know, we we were losing Hash rate in China,
1554
01:56:17.370 --> 01:56:18.989
and, you know, the difficulty
1555
01:56:19.290 --> 01:56:24.030
was just way too high to be able to support a transaction, so we got high fee rates.
1556
01:56:24.465 --> 01:56:27.445
And I ended up doing the math, and the
1557
01:56:27.905 --> 01:56:30.005
channels that I leased,
1558
01:56:30.865 --> 01:56:32.165
if I were to close,
1559
01:56:33.050 --> 01:56:42.965
because right now in the median pool, you you lease channels for 2 weeks total, which is kind of funny that it lines up with the difficulty adjustment. Right? So you could end up,
1560
01:56:43.665 --> 01:56:47.765
doing your, you know, cost basis and saying, okay. Cool. The transaction fees are just
1561
01:56:48.130 --> 01:56:49.830
are just, you know, you know, a
1562
01:56:50.450 --> 01:56:52.790
few sets per byte right now.
1563
01:56:53.730 --> 01:57:02.715
It's not gonna cost me that much to do an on chain transaction. So let me do my calculations to come out to okay. You know, a 6%
1564
01:57:03.415 --> 01:57:07.310
lease sounds good to me. And so you you you open up your lease, you sell them,
1565
01:57:07.869 --> 01:57:14.325
someone buys them, and then now the new difficult your 2 weeks are up, a new difficulty has has sprung,
1566
01:57:14.785 --> 01:57:18.405
and all of a sudden, now cost you a whole lot more to do,
1567
01:57:18.865 --> 01:57:22.990
to close your channel. Because right? So you've leased the channel, now it's time to close it. Otherwise,
1568
01:57:24.010 --> 01:57:29.470
that peer if you keep that channel open, that peer is essentially getting, you know, every day past 14,
1569
01:57:29.915 --> 01:57:31.614
they're essentially getting a free channel,
1570
01:57:31.995 --> 01:57:32.495
that
1571
01:57:32.875 --> 01:57:45.120
you, as the leaser, pay the transaction fee for. You are locking up the the funds with them. And to close out the channel, you are the 1 the leaser is the one to pay the closing transaction fee costs.
1572
01:57:48.155 --> 01:57:48.975
So in total,
1573
01:57:49.675 --> 01:57:54.255
there there are about 3 on chain transactions you have to do as a leaser. You you Brutal.
1574
01:57:54.969 --> 01:57:59.290
It sucks. It's terrible. They they say that they're gonna try to fix it so you can,
1575
01:58:01.210 --> 01:58:04.405
try to close into a Lightning Pool. So essentially,
1576
01:58:04.945 --> 01:58:06.645
you to to be a leaser,
1577
01:58:07.105 --> 01:58:14.699
you have to make an on chain transaction to a Lightning Pool account, which is basically a multi sig a 2 zero two multi sig with Lightning Labs,
1578
01:58:15.079 --> 01:58:16.619
that expires after
1579
01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:24.645
whatever you can set your own expiration date when you want it to expire. So if if Lightning Labs were to go away after a few weeks, you could recover your funds.
1580
01:58:25.744 --> 01:58:31.970
So it's a, 22 fall back to your own private key. So you you move funds into the pool account,
1581
01:58:32.670 --> 01:58:37.090
then when you sell a lease, and you can you can sell multiple leases with with
1582
01:58:37.825 --> 01:58:39.765
with your funds, you end up,
1583
01:58:40.305 --> 01:58:41.365
opening the channel,
1584
01:58:41.745 --> 01:58:48.620
and you pay the fees for that. And then you close the channel, and you pay the fees for that. And then you have to go back into pool,
1585
01:58:49.640 --> 01:58:51.980
and you pay the fees for that as well. So
1586
01:58:53.005 --> 01:58:58.145
each round of of selling a channel that you're going through, you're paying off 3 on chain transactions,
1587
01:58:58.605 --> 01:59:01.745
and it got to the situation where I couldn't close my channels,
1588
01:59:02.710 --> 01:59:11.690
that had expired that, you know, I I fulfilled my end of the bargain. I fulfilled my 2 week period, and I couldn't close my channels, or I would be I would be so negative.
1589
01:59:12.335 --> 01:59:14.995
You know, we were we were seeing what, like, 10 or $15,
1590
01:59:17.135 --> 01:59:23.500
on chain fees. I've got how many expense that was. Yeah. There is no way I was I was I was gonna do that. And
1591
01:59:24.520 --> 01:59:25.739
then when when I say
1592
01:59:26.040 --> 01:59:31.425
6 to 10% or whatever for a lease, what I mean is if that were annualized.
1593
01:59:32.445 --> 01:59:35.744
If I had that channel open What you mean is it's bullshit?
1594
01:59:37.250 --> 01:59:40.070
What I mean is yes. You're not actually
1595
01:59:41.570 --> 01:59:42.390
you're getting
1596
01:59:42.770 --> 01:59:43.270
6%
1597
01:59:44.130 --> 01:59:44.630
APR
1598
01:59:45.565 --> 01:59:46.945
for a 2 week period.
1599
01:59:47.725 --> 01:59:50.305
So whatever that comes down to, what, like, 0.12%
1600
01:59:51.805 --> 01:59:56.070
1601
01:59:56.850 --> 01:59:57.350
1602
01:59:58.210 --> 02:00:00.310
Lightning pole, it's it's technically
1603
02:00:02.295 --> 02:00:05.594
Lightning Pool supports being able to do a variety of different,
1604
02:00:08.135 --> 02:00:08.955
lease times.
1605
02:00:09.335 --> 02:00:11.114
But in order to have
1606
02:00:12.550 --> 02:00:13.230
a more
1607
02:00:13.670 --> 02:00:14.810
a better auctioning,
1608
02:00:16.869 --> 02:00:18.489
I guess, what am I trying to say?
1609
02:00:20.315 --> 02:00:21.355
Have more people
1610
02:00:21.915 --> 02:00:23.215
1611
02:00:23.755 --> 02:00:24.975
or more offers. Right?
1612
02:00:25.355 --> 02:00:27.614
1613
02:00:28.270 --> 02:00:31.810
they make everyone do just 2 weeks. But as we start getting more offers,
1614
02:00:32.350 --> 02:00:35.170
as more people start using pull, buying and selling,
1615
02:00:35.525 --> 02:00:38.025
they're gonna open it up to to have more
1616
02:00:38.405 --> 02:00:39.605
variety of of different,
1617
02:00:40.965 --> 02:00:43.145
lease periods. So which would be good?
1618
02:00:43.520 --> 02:00:47.460
1619
02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:48.500
is
1620
02:00:49.280 --> 02:00:50.179
this idea
1621
02:00:50.800 --> 02:00:52.980
of reputation. Right? So so
1622
02:00:54.065 --> 02:00:57.825
not only do you have these other aspects of lightning pool, but they're also,
1623
02:00:59.665 --> 02:01:07.400
right now, I guess, you can only lease channels if you have a certain boss score, which they're calling the balance of Satoshi score, but it was
1624
02:01:08.179 --> 02:01:12.295
Oh, you can me not to mention that it was made by Alex Bosworth, and it's his
1625
02:01:12.995 --> 02:01:19.975
1626
02:01:20.770 --> 02:01:22.150
by default you are accepting
1627
02:01:23.570 --> 02:01:29.045
channels from or buying channels from the nodes in the tier 1, which is an obscure
1628
02:01:29.505 --> 02:01:32.804
ranking system. Part of it is like the BOS score probably,
1629
02:01:33.185 --> 02:01:33.685
but
1630
02:01:34.225 --> 02:01:35.605
I mean it's kind of
1631
02:01:35.985 --> 02:01:36.565
a quality
1632
02:01:37.670 --> 02:01:39.530
control of the liquidity
1633
02:01:39.830 --> 02:01:41.930
1634
02:01:43.510 --> 02:01:46.275
it it got released today to try and make it less
1635
02:01:55.679 --> 02:01:58.580
If you're watching this live, it's in the chat. If you click that,
1636
02:01:59.520 --> 02:02:01.540
this is our stacking sats node,
1637
02:02:02.695 --> 02:02:08.155
which I've tried my best to run Oh. A NICE Sovereign Tor routing node. It has $270,000
1638
02:02:08.935 --> 02:02:15.570
worth of capacity, and I just wanna let the attackers know that also includes remote capacity. That's not all the capacity that I have on my node,
1639
02:02:16.350 --> 02:02:18.610
and they're just destroying me. I'm unstable.
1640
02:02:19.185 --> 02:02:45.045
1641
02:02:45.500 --> 02:02:52.960
1642
02:02:53.785 --> 02:03:06.540
I have 0 of a 158 of my peers are are considered good peers by them, and I'm an unstable node even though it's been around for 2 years. Like, that that seems bugged. That seems bugged. Yeah. But it it's it's probably
1643
02:03:07.000 --> 02:03:20.110
1644
02:03:20.730 --> 02:03:21.230
the
1645
02:03:21.530 --> 02:03:25.470
last option I noticed because I was after testing this thing as well. I mean,
1646
02:03:25.815 --> 02:03:29.275
I don't know anything about the background code because it's not,
1647
02:03:29.895 --> 02:03:32.074
published as far as I know. But
1648
02:03:33.255 --> 02:03:34.395
my It's not open?
1649
02:03:35.360 --> 02:03:36.980
I don't think so. Yeah.
1650
02:03:38.640 --> 02:03:49.844
But my, my notes have been, you know, up and down, and I could see that, you know, if I do an an update or I do a bit of a crash management, stuff like that, you know, then the uptime
1651
02:03:50.224 --> 02:03:51.205
does suffer,
1652
02:03:51.665 --> 02:03:53.205
obviously. And then
1653
02:03:53.920 --> 02:04:00.099
after a couple of weeks, it comes back up. And then if you if you have, like, a couple of well capitalized
1654
02:04:00.965 --> 02:04:03.705
peers who are actually all green in this
1655
02:04:04.165 --> 02:04:06.745
kind of list, then you will have
1656
02:04:07.285 --> 02:04:16.860
1657
02:04:17.160 --> 02:04:30.370
1658
02:04:31.150 --> 02:04:35.330
1659
02:04:37.215 --> 02:04:38.355
1660
02:04:38.895 --> 02:04:43.440
1661
02:04:43.920 --> 02:04:47.219
1662
02:04:47.680 --> 02:04:50.100
it's also segregating him from a market.
1663
02:04:51.415 --> 02:04:52.235
Yeah. Like,
1664
02:04:53.735 --> 02:04:57.515
I I think something's fucked. To to have so I'm, like,
1665
02:04:58.055 --> 02:05:01.110
I'm not gonna submit too much information, but I have
1666
02:05:01.410 --> 02:05:04.550
between a dozen or 2 dozen channels. That's it.
1667
02:05:04.930 --> 02:05:07.110
All self funded. And I
1668
02:05:07.650 --> 02:05:09.910
and even during the Texas outages
1669
02:05:10.405 --> 02:05:16.105
where my node was down for for basically a week and a half, I didn't lose my spot in
1670
02:05:17.620 --> 02:05:25.880
1671
02:05:26.665 --> 02:05:27.885
1672
02:05:28.505 --> 02:05:29.405
Is it not?
1673
02:05:30.905 --> 02:05:36.400
1674
02:05:36.700 --> 02:05:41.440
1675
02:05:41.865 --> 02:05:48.125
1676
02:05:48.665 --> 02:05:53.030
1677
02:05:53.570 --> 02:05:58.365
it does not have a good BOS score, and it's also tour only, and it has a very good job of mine.
1678
02:05:58.925 --> 02:06:03.265
1679
02:06:03.725 --> 02:06:16.990
1680
02:06:17.804 --> 02:06:28.710
1681
02:06:29.090 --> 02:06:32.230
1682
02:06:32.610 --> 02:06:41.204
marker is or, like, uptime marker is red, you will be down from the BOS score as well. And once it gets trained, you know, whatever whatever is not finished the BOS list.
1683
02:06:41.585 --> 02:06:43.605
1684
02:06:44.930 --> 02:06:46.070
1685
02:06:46.530 --> 02:06:52.630
1686
02:06:53.330 --> 02:06:53.715
just
1687
02:06:54.275 --> 02:06:55.014
a disclaimer,
1688
02:06:56.435 --> 02:07:01.415
you can still be on Lightning Pool, but as a tier 0 node,
1689
02:07:02.310 --> 02:07:02.810
And
1690
02:07:03.510 --> 02:07:04.010
buyers,
1691
02:07:05.030 --> 02:07:07.530
have to opt in to accepting,
1692
02:07:09.030 --> 02:07:11.210
leases from tier 0 notes.
1693
02:07:12.025 --> 02:07:15.245
And I don't know if that happens very often or not.
1694
02:07:15.865 --> 02:07:25.050
Theoretically, I I don't know why it hasn't been done yet, but the lightning poll Twitter, you know, it'll tell you who buys or not who buys. It'll tell you when a lease was bought
1695
02:07:25.830 --> 02:07:27.290
and for what percentage.
1696
02:07:28.685 --> 02:07:30.705
But what it doesn't tell you is who bought
1697
02:07:31.645 --> 02:07:32.625
and who sold.
1698
02:07:33.565 --> 02:07:36.125
And I I think I don't know if you can tell
1699
02:07:36.640 --> 02:07:41.940
I don't think you can tell who bought and who sold, but you can tell the 2 peers that were in that.
1700
02:07:42.960 --> 02:07:48.395
1701
02:07:48.935 --> 02:07:53.195
txid, put it into one ml.com, and it will spit it out to peers.
1702
02:07:53.890 --> 02:07:57.909
1703
02:07:58.290 --> 02:07:58.870
very easily,
1704
02:07:59.250 --> 02:08:02.870
like you said, but I wanna know how many tier 0
1705
02:08:03.365 --> 02:08:24.025
leases are being bought, if if at all. It's possible that it's not really. I mean, there are not many matches at all. Yeah. There are not that many matches at all. Right? So And, occasionally, I see leases being bought and where it's like like, oh, cool. This channel was sold for for 300 satoshis. And I'm like, are you fucking serious? Unchained fees are $15
1706
02:08:24.325 --> 02:08:26.665
or whatever right now. Like, they paid $15,
1707
02:08:27.490 --> 02:08:29.430
and they got 300 sats,
1708
02:08:29.970 --> 02:08:32.150
out out of that, which will go away,
1709
02:08:32.530 --> 02:08:34.790
which is already gone before they even
1710
02:08:35.250 --> 02:08:36.470
as they open that channel
1711
02:08:37.575 --> 02:08:41.275
and spend that on chain transaction, that 300 sats is is in the negative.
1712
02:08:42.935 --> 02:08:46.955
1713
02:08:47.920 --> 02:08:48.420
chance,
1714
02:08:49.120 --> 02:08:55.700
funds to deploy to the lightning network, then it's probably a good idea to kind of put in
1715
02:08:56.045 --> 02:09:00.305
put it where it is asked for or where it is needed. So
1716
02:09:00.685 --> 02:09:07.040
in the hope that it will generate some routing fees. And for this reason, I wouldn't even close it because,
1717
02:09:07.580 --> 02:09:08.380
you know, to
1718
02:09:09.020 --> 02:09:14.095
I mean, I never opened a lightning channel which I would only want to keep open for, like, 2 weeks.
1719
02:09:14.555 --> 02:09:18.255
I mean, unless it's like, you know, goes offline or or there is
1720
02:09:18.555 --> 02:09:19.855
some shenanigans,
1721
02:09:20.555 --> 02:09:21.055
but,
1722
02:09:22.780 --> 02:09:24.400
yes. So it's it's it's just
1723
02:09:25.180 --> 02:09:26.720
kind of a pointer where
1724
02:09:27.100 --> 02:09:28.320
channels could be opened.
1725
02:09:28.860 --> 02:09:31.280
That's how I look at it. It's not generating.
1726
02:09:32.385 --> 02:09:35.445
I mean, it did generate some income for me, but
1727
02:09:37.264 --> 02:09:40.405
I never never closed this channel. So again, that is
1728
02:09:42.690 --> 02:09:43.510
still coming,
1729
02:09:44.130 --> 02:09:44.870
that cost.
1730
02:09:45.410 --> 02:09:54.615
1731
02:09:55.395 --> 02:09:59.415
keeping this channel open with this peer will get me routing funds,
1732
02:09:59.960 --> 02:10:04.260
or should I just close it? Plus, on top of that,
1733
02:10:04.600 --> 02:10:08.940
closing a 2 week channel, am I gonna get a negative score on the BOS score? You know?
1734
02:10:09.715 --> 02:10:15.255
Is that is that one of the metrics used? I know they said that one of the metrics used is if you close
1735
02:10:15.875 --> 02:10:18.055
during a high fee rate environment,
1736
02:10:19.040 --> 02:10:19.940
that's a negative,
1737
02:10:21.199 --> 02:10:25.460
score. Not a negative score. It hurts your score a little at least a little bit. So
1738
02:10:25.945 --> 02:10:28.445
at that point, why would I you're almost
1739
02:10:29.385 --> 02:10:33.005
joining a pool and then closing 2 weeks. I would think that just hurts your score.
1740
02:10:34.250 --> 02:10:38.410
Or this Which is another thing that just suck. Why are we why are we worried about scores?
1741
02:10:38.890 --> 02:10:40.030
It it's it
1742
02:10:41.265 --> 02:10:44.885
it sucks that to be part of the market, you're we're worried about these scores.
1743
02:10:45.825 --> 02:10:48.630
1744
02:10:49.110 --> 02:10:52.889
the Sea Lightning team and this kind of dual funding channel
1745
02:10:53.550 --> 02:10:54.050
in
1746
02:10:54.710 --> 02:10:56.010
in initiative does
1747
02:10:56.455 --> 02:11:02.155
eat into this model a lot. And, I mean, I I I will be very curious to see that who
1748
02:11:03.574 --> 02:11:04.635
probably if
1749
02:11:04.935 --> 02:11:09.250
they are, you you know, if it's easy or, like, feasible for them to technically,
1750
02:11:10.030 --> 02:11:18.485
implement it, then they would be probably much quicker to do do a funding channel do a funding channels than than L and T will be.
1751
02:11:19.264 --> 02:11:20.965
We'll see how it goes. I'm very curious
1752
02:11:22.929 --> 02:11:25.349
about this. Because obviously they are, you know,
1753
02:11:26.929 --> 02:11:27.670
for the
1754
02:11:28.705 --> 02:11:31.045
profit making services, profit generating services.
1755
02:11:31.905 --> 02:11:34.005
And also pool does take, like,
1756
02:11:35.025 --> 02:11:36.570
what is it, a 10 bip or
1757
02:11:37.770 --> 02:11:38.429
a 1,000
1758
02:11:39.210 --> 02:11:40.670
In fairness. Cents per 1,000?
1759
02:11:41.449 --> 02:11:43.150
1760
02:11:45.210 --> 02:11:49.045
of what you're selling. So, like, if I'm if I'm doing a 10 lease channel
1761
02:11:49.585 --> 02:11:52.405
and it's currently set at lightning pole takes 25%
1762
02:11:53.185 --> 02:11:55.925
off of that, then I'm essentially just getting 8%,
1763
02:11:56.450 --> 02:11:57.670
or or sorry, 7.5%.
1764
02:11:58.930 --> 02:12:00.710
And and Lightning Labs takes
1765
02:12:01.090 --> 02:12:01.750
the other
1766
02:12:02.690 --> 02:12:11.155
1767
02:12:11.615 --> 02:12:16.500
Is it? Okay. I mean Mhmm. When I last looked at it, it wasn't, but then it might could have changed.
1768
02:12:18.080 --> 02:12:18.580
Anyway,
1769
02:12:18.960 --> 02:12:20.020
they do a significant
1770
02:12:21.735 --> 02:12:27.835
1771
02:12:28.710 --> 02:12:32.170
it keeps some accountability to the people that are selling channels
1772
02:12:32.710 --> 02:12:39.445
through, like, other means. So, like, Bitrefill store, they sell channels. Alan Big sells channels on their own. They have for a while.
1773
02:12:39.985 --> 02:12:42.165
Even Alex Bosworth, he sells channels
1774
02:12:42.705 --> 02:12:43.445
on y'alls.
1775
02:12:44.440 --> 02:12:51.900
It at least holds some kind of accountability metric and some sort it's not a completely free market because not everyone can participate
1776
02:12:52.280 --> 02:12:53.115
or at least
1777
02:12:54.155 --> 02:12:57.055
participate to the fullest, at least at a default level,
1778
02:12:57.835 --> 02:12:59.295
but at least has some
1779
02:13:00.370 --> 02:13:01.830
accountability, some marketplace.
1780
02:13:02.610 --> 02:13:04.469
And what we've seen is that,
1781
02:13:05.489 --> 02:13:09.670
over the last few weeks, it has sort of trended to 6%.
1782
02:13:11.005 --> 02:13:11.905
So we're seeing
1783
02:13:12.525 --> 02:13:13.824
those kind of rates currently.
1784
02:13:14.605 --> 02:13:26.159
I always look at lightning the lightning polls Twitter account every every now and then to kinda see what it's at. And right now, it's about 6%. And honestly, I have some orders, and I'm like, I'm not sorry, I'm not going down to 6%
1785
02:13:26.539 --> 02:13:34.625
and having to pay all these on chain fees or or whatever. So I have some really high fee and some really high rate and someone's gonna pay for it. Great. Otherwise,
1786
02:13:35.565 --> 02:13:38.145
you know, the the shitty thing is my account
1787
02:13:38.540 --> 02:13:43.679
with with with Lightning Labs expires in in 3 weeks. So at at the end of 3 weeks, I have
1788
02:13:44.059 --> 02:13:46.719
to do more on chain transactions if I don't sell
1789
02:13:47.285 --> 02:13:48.985
sell these sell these leases.
1790
02:13:49.445 --> 02:13:52.265
It's just on chain transaction after on chain transaction.
1791
02:13:53.605 --> 02:13:54.345
It sucks.
1792
02:13:54.725 --> 02:13:55.865
I I do agree.
1793
02:13:56.620 --> 02:13:57.280
See Lightning's,
1794
02:13:58.060 --> 02:14:00.640
implementation of doing dual funding will be great,
1795
02:14:02.620 --> 02:14:05.200
and and hopefully alleviate some of that.
1796
02:14:05.895 --> 02:14:09.435
1797
02:14:09.975 --> 02:14:18.770
documentation, loop doc poor documentation that the basic the fees will range from 5 to 25 basis points per user. So it's 500 to 2,500
1798
02:14:19.550 --> 02:14:20.210
per 1,000,000
1799
02:14:21.085 --> 02:14:22.305
depending on the liquidity
1800
02:14:22.685 --> 02:14:23.185
purchased.
1801
02:14:25.165 --> 02:14:30.225
I wonder if it's lower if it is it higher if it's the the it's a low liquidity or is it,
1802
02:14:31.470 --> 02:14:35.170
1803
02:14:36.350 --> 02:14:37.950
for a high rate yourself? Or
1804
02:14:39.085 --> 02:14:42.224
Yeah. Or is it lower if you're if you're only selling for 3%,
1805
02:14:42.844 --> 02:14:44.465
does does do they still take
1806
02:14:45.244 --> 02:14:51.929
1807
02:14:52.310 --> 02:14:53.530
buyer pays as well.
1808
02:14:54.389 --> 02:14:55.449
1809
02:14:56.994 --> 02:14:58.215
Well, good for them.
1810
02:14:59.315 --> 02:15:01.895
1811
02:15:02.275 --> 02:15:03.574
1812
02:15:04.520 --> 02:15:09.739
1813
02:15:10.199 --> 02:15:11.580
we should cut them some credit.
1814
02:15:12.120 --> 02:15:13.500
Of course. Cut them some slack.
1815
02:15:13.925 --> 02:15:19.784
1816
02:15:21.820 --> 02:15:24.000
1817
02:15:24.380 --> 02:15:24.860
1818
02:15:25.260 --> 02:15:27.840
1819
02:15:29.735 --> 02:15:33.835
to us, when we see the overlay chat is working as designed,
1820
02:15:34.695 --> 02:15:38.474
but going out to the different streaming services, if you were watching this live,
1821
02:15:39.140 --> 02:15:42.200
for whatever reason, Restream is fucking up. So,
1822
02:15:42.820 --> 02:15:45.160
you guys don't see the chat from the other,
1823
02:15:45.860 --> 02:15:47.960
streaming services on your screen.
1824
02:15:48.775 --> 02:15:56.155
I'm gonna leave it as it is because I'm pretty sure once I download this video after the fact, it will still keep the overlay chat.
1825
02:15:57.510 --> 02:16:09.035
So that's why it looks like on the on the right side of your screen just, like, empty. It's really filled with chat for us, and I it's just you know, we're we're we're beholden to the centralized service that provides
1826
02:16:11.415 --> 02:16:15.275
this streaming capability to us, so that's why it is empty on your screen.
1827
02:16:16.880 --> 02:16:24.020
As far as as far as lightning pool goes, I mean, I think it goes further than that. I think it's really hard
1828
02:16:24.555 --> 02:16:27.375
for a Lightning node operator to
1829
02:16:31.195 --> 02:16:36.620
comprehend what their future on chain fee burden is. It's like it's a very difficult thing to,
1830
02:16:38.040 --> 02:16:38.540
calculate
1831
02:16:39.240 --> 02:16:42.755
or or even just account for in your head. Like, you don't have to calculate it perfectly,
1832
02:16:44.835 --> 02:16:45.895
count in my head
1833
02:16:46.354 --> 02:16:50.854
what my future on chain fee burden is gonna be or what my on chain fee burden is in general,
1834
02:16:52.819 --> 02:16:54.920
when I don't know what the fees are gonna be in the future.
1835
02:16:55.380 --> 02:17:03.255
And it's it's something that I think we're just gonna constantly be up against. It's it's just there's, there's no real easy way to,
1836
02:17:04.835 --> 02:17:06.694
conceptualize that. Would you guys agree?
1837
02:17:07.240 --> 02:17:10.380
1838
02:17:12.440 --> 02:17:14.300