March 30, 2021
CD15: bitcoin privacy and coinjoin with @nopara73 and @openoms
EPISODE: 0.1.5
BLOCK: 677022
PRICE: 1701 sats per dollar
TOPICS: bitcoin privacy, coinjoin
nopara73: https://twitter.com/nopara73
openoms: https://twitter.com/openoms
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00:00 - Bitcoin as a store of value
01:51 - The future of finance and cryptocurrency networks
05:23 - The importance of Bitcoin privacy
59:39 - Importance of Lightning Network and reducing on-chain errors
01:02:27 - Bitcoin as a tool for activists in repressive regimes
01:18:38 - Concerns about flagging CoinJoin usage and the need for privacy
01:54:39 - Incentives for coordinator participation
02:08:07 - Importance of remixing in CoinJoin
02:39:37 - Discussion on the feasibility of a Sybil attack
02:52:45 - Address reuse in Bitcoin Core
02:53:50 - Advantages of a centralized coordinator in Wasabi Wallet
02:56:25 - Should a coordinator allow reused addresses in a mix?
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:45 PM
Duration: 11734.596
Channels: 1
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And and I'll tell you why. Okay? I I I will give him the first statement that it's highly volatile. And at this point,
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it's tough as a to use for transactions.
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But then he says it's not really a store of value
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and then says it's essentially a substitute for gold.
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So the the 4000,
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5000
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year store of value that we know
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historically is gold.
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And he just said it's like gold, but it's not a store value. So does he not think gold is a store of value? And with what the Fed's doing right now is a dollar, is he really making the case that that's a store of value?
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Well,
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hey, Joe. You you're thinking about it exactly the right way. I mean, there's a lot to unpack
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there. So so, you know, first of all, it was a store of value. I would just say there's a reason people have flocked Bitcoin in the last year, right, which is something else happened in the last year. And that is that we increase the money supply
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by 40%.
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So when you do that in a world of supply and demand, it means that the dollar is at least a 40% less good store of value than it was a year ago, and and that is one of the reasons people look to Bitcoin. But, Joe, the point I really wanna make is the dollar may not actually be backed by anything. Obviously, we went off the gold standard in the Nixon administration,
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But cryptocurrencies
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actually are backed by something.
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They're backed by underlying networks. And what you're buying when you buy a crypto token, whether it's Bitcoin or anything else, is you're buying a piece of a financial network that's being built to transact all kinds of stuff. And the number of things that have gone on chain in the last 2 years
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is enormously high. That's why the cryptocurrency market today is almost a $2,000,000,000,000
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market. I believe in the wisdom of crowds, personally, and I think that there's kind of, like, forces of the future at work here and then forces of the status quo. I think the crowds are telling you that these networks are where finance is going in the future. I wanna be part of that.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt O'Dell, here for another episode of Citadel dispatch. This is Citadel Dispatch
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15,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, open source software, and privacy.
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I'm joined by
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a return guest and good friend, Open Arms,
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well known for his work towards making join market,
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more user friendly with his join inbox project,
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and
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No Para, who is the founder of Wasabi Wallet,
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one of the easiest to use CoinJoin implementations
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available.
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We look forward to discussing
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a very important topic today,
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in that
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Bitcoin privacy and using Bitcoin privately, why it's important,
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the current tools at our disposal, future tools at our disposal,
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and tangential discussions with that.
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I am aware that we usually come to you at 21 100 UTC.
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It is earlier today because
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of time zones and because this discussion is an important one, and we want to make it happen.
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So thank you to all the freaks who were able to make it,
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at this earlier time.
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If you're joining us through the audio feed,
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the Citadel dispatch can be
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viewed live on Twitch, Twitter, YouTube.
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Then after the fact, it goes to our podcast feeds, both the Ciel dispatch dedicated feed and the tales from the crib feed.
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So you might be listening to us there. Also, full archives without ads are posted,
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on citadel dispatch.com,
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both video and audio, hosted on Keybase and on Telegram.
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So with all that said, if you're joining us via audio, that clip out in the beginning,
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was Brian Brooks,
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who is, like, the former lead lawyer for Coinbase,
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and he was also the former controller of the currency talking to our boy Joe Kernan on CNBC,
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candidly about,
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Powell's our current Fed chair's statements regarding Bitcoin and and whether or not it's a store of value
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or, or or a money,
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and it's just I don't know. It's kinda funny that it's just it's just hit the mainstream news in that way, and and they just talk about it so candidly. They talk about 40% money supply printing,
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which used to be, like, things that people would talk about in, like, dark dark corners of the Internet, and now it's just on CNBC.
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Anyway, with all that said, I wanna thank the Freak's again for joining us live,
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and I wanna thank both Nopar and Open Arms for joining us for the discussion.
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I'd like to, you know I I figured we should start,
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with the discussion with why
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the Bitcoin privacy discussion is so important to Bitcoiners and why it should be important to Bitcoiners and why Freak should care about it.
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And with that said, let's start with you, Noepara. What do you think here? How's it going?
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Hey, guys. I'm happy to be part of this potentially
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historic conversation.
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So
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I would like to talk a bit about
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Bitcoin privacy
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and and and and its importance.
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And I thought maybe the best way
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to to communicate it is that I just present my my thesis on it that,
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basically operating
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based on that maybe during the last one
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past year.
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And
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and it all starts with the properties of good money,
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which I assume
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many people have heard about before.
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The divisibility,
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portability, fungibility,
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and so on,
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where Bitcoin brings
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scarcity
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to the table so no one can print more.
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And
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and
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the
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only
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remaining problems left in Bitcoin is
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acceptability,
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portability,
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and fungibility.
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Acceptability
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is an easy one because it's it's taking care of itself. If we improve the other properties of money,
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then then acceptability is going to take care of itself.
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Portability
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is something that Bitcoin is
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or or any other cryptocurrency,
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to my knowledge,
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lacks
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a lot, and that's a very important topic to work on. However, there is a there is an army of open source developer
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working on portability.
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And that leaves us with with fungibility,
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which is,
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I suppose, for the sake of this conversation, we can say fungibility, privacy, and anonymity are the same things in in this
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in this context, but we might elaborate on that later.
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And, you know, fungibility
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is not
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something that many people
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dare to to work on,
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especially on the implementation
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side
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because
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because there
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are
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large
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forces and interests
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trying to
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to control
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the citizens
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of
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every word, and one of the tools of control is must surveillance.
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And
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so it would not be a good
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idea to
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to let
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a private,
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anonymous,
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fungible
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currency
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had to be released to the world,
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but,
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you know, this is going to happen.
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It may happen with Bitcoin. It may happen with Monero. It may may happen with other
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alternative cryptocurrencies.
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But my guess is and I suppose
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everyone else's guess here is the same that Bitcoin is
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going to take over the world because
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people don't
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care that much about fungibility.
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You know, fungibility, privacy is something
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that matters until
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until it stop mattering.
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And
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and so
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so if Bitcoin takes over the world, then
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40 years from now, we will tell a very
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different story to our grandchildren.
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The if we
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we
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have Bitcoin
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privacy
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ready,
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then then without,
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without
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privacy in Bitcoin.
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So I I believe that's
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that's why fungibility
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may be the most important thing to to work on right now at this moment.
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I mean, I think you make some very good points there. I think what a lot of people,
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don't appreciate
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in the Bitcoin circles is that this is larger than just Bitcoin.
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We're seeing,
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transgressions made by large governments and corporations around the world on people's privacy,
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regardless if they're a Bitcoiner.
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Bitcoin is a subset within that.
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If we expect it to be the money
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that
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that the world will run on, the the the future money of the world, then obviously, it's gonna become a bigger and bigger aspect of the private equation.
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And it's important that
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especially with something like Bitcoin where you have this open ledger that's we expect to exist forever,
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if if if we don't work on this soon,
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mistakes that are made today could come back to haunt people in the future. Those things are never you know, the the ledger will never change.
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So so if you make a mistake today, in 5 years, 10 years, it can come back to haunt you.
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Open Arms,
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you've dedicated a large portion of your time. I know you don't do this full time, and I have tons and tons of respect for the work you've done, towards trying to make Bitcoin more private in your work with joining Box.
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Where do you what is your perspective here? Why show the show the freaks why they should care about,
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using Bitcoin more privately and improving Bitcoin privacy guarantees, at least on the app level.
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Yes. Exactly. I mean, I I agree with, you know, the things said previously.
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And also,
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I mean, CoinJoin
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is is one thing. It's a very important and
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very efficient
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tool, but, I mean, limited in scale, but we'll talk about that probably.
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Also,
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I mean, I do approach privacy in from all the different angles,
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as as we do all from, you know, from the net network level to
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the
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base, Bitcoin level
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and the base layer level and also, you know, going on second layers like lightning and, you know, other,
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kind of solutions are
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are as important as well. So I'd like to use all the tools available
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and
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why it is so important because
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this is just
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so much different from what we had before. We we had a have a system for
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registering
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and surveilling
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transactions,
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which is made for
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a private banking system.
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And having
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a decentralized
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open public ledger,
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which everyone can read and use, it's just so completely different
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that
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it needs to be used differently. We need to be
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need to put emphasis on
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caring for our privacy because otherwise everything is just out in the open and you will be
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having a surveillance tool which has been never never seen before.
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And,
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obviously, you need to avoid exposing all your financial activity for your personal safety,
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but it's also important for your business or any other business for the
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essential for the operation of a free market.
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So you need to be able to
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only expose things which you choose to, which is which is the main
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kind of aim here that, you can prove everything, but you don't want to
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expose more than necessary.
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So, yeah, I mean, this is just my kind of
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I would like to work towards the future which I'd like to see
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rather than
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a dystopian
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Orwell 18
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1984 1, which could be as well as a reality if,
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you know, privacy would would be nonexistent.
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I mean, you mentioned 1984. Do you guys think
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do you do you guys think there's a lot of comparisons here with Bitcoin privacy spending money privately to
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speaking privately, private speech, encryption?
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Absolutely.
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And this is transaction
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either it's a form of communication,
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financial transactions as well. So
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being able to communicate freely is
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essential for,
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you know, for a healthy life and for,
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the kind of function of the society or civilization.
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So with all that said, I mean, I I agree with,
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I agree with the premise,
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Open Arms. I I think that I I want to,
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I want to cover
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all sorts of tools we have available to us, not just CoinJoin on this conversation,
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and I we will. We will get to that.
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But before we do,
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I think,
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well, first of all, to any any new freaks that are here, if if you're watching live,
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the top price is the evil empire's Coinbase's price, and then the bottom is Bisq,
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which is why Bisq is
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is is not moving as frequently. It has way less volume than Coinbase.
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So, I mean, I I think a great place to start here is
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Nopara spent
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a good amount of time releasing Wasabi Wallet to the world,
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and
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I'm curious
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your perspective, Nopara.
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We know now you're working on Wasabi Wallet 2.0, and we will get to that. But before we do,
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with all these users using Wasabi,
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what what have you learned from that experience? What have you learned? What are the lessons that were learned from Wasabi that are that are hopefully being used going forward in terms of,
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Wasabi 2 point o development?
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Okay.
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So
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it it doesn't really connect that much to privacy,
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but it
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I I think this is the largest
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lesson I learned, or I'm
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still trying to learn or figure out how to think about that because,
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you know, I I started Wasabi alone in 2015, and then for 2 years, I pretty much worked alone with 1 or 2 people
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joined
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to the adventure for
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a shorter period of time.
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But then when when
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started to work
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with more
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and more people together,
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And I never worked in a big company
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before,
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and I don't know how things are
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are are taken care of in in the company. So,
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you know, I I came from this Bitcoin open source at all where everyone is
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is doing
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his or her best
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to the best of his or her ability.
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And
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and and and so
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so our hiring process was
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the it it was very simple. You know, we we give you
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money
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every month, and you do whatever
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you would like to do.
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And
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this led to us going to
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many, many different
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directions
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and
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not
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not going to
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a to
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a to a common
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goal,
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to not not targeting the same thing
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together.
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And
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I did not
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change it in a way that,
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that that's how how you would you would work in a normal company that
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management has the objectives, and that's how it it must happen.
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But what I figured
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maybe
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the best way to
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to to run a company
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you know, I have no idea, but the best way to run a company is to try to convince everyone to
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go towards the same
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goal
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and see what happens.
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And that's when,
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yeah, that's happened one and a half year, year ago, and and we'll see.
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So so so, yeah,
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basically, my my my largest learning
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experience is that when you let people do whatever they
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want without any inputs,
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they
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will do
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very good things,
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which microcosmically
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makes a lot of sense, but macrocosmically,
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it doesn't really.
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Can you remind us when was the pivot was released
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on on mainnet? When
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did you do the first,
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coinjoin with it?
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It's
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2018.
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Yeah. Wow.
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00:18:59.105 --> 00:19:05.125
Yeah. It's Real ways ways more recent than that, doesn't it, Open Arms? Yeah. Yes. I mean, especially
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that was
335
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basically the time I was
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starting to look into more deeply into,
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I mean, Bitcoin Bitcoin and Bitcoin privacy
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itself
339
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and started to contribute to project and and things and kind of was
340
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one of the one of the first advanced
341
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interface which I've which I started which I've started to use,
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you know, providing a very good coin control and just generally
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being able to
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just open it without
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and using it fairly privately from the network level
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without having a full node running yet at that time.
347
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So it it was certainly a change of,
348
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change of the way people were interacting with
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with Bitcoin. I mean, the space was massively different back then. I mean, if you look at some of the top projects, things like Specter,
350
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all the node packages,
351
00:20:01.100 --> 00:20:08.320
you know, the Raspberry Blitz, Umbrel. I don't I wonder if Raspberry Blitz start. Like, I I don't think that was even a thing yet, right, in 2018.
352
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I think it started in in the
353
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spring of 2018, and I started contributing towards the end.
354
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It is pretty much as Lightning
355
00:20:19.889 --> 00:20:21.269
came to Mainnet,
356
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shortly after.
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Because before Raspberry Pi Blitz was
358
00:20:28.395 --> 00:20:30.735
Raspberry Pi what's the other one?
359
00:20:31.195 --> 00:20:39.270
Raspberry Pi Raspberry Pi was the Right. Yeah. The project is static because, I mean, it was basically the same kind of thing to get
360
00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:41.190
Bitcoin and lightning,
361
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you know, running because,
362
00:20:43.035 --> 00:20:51.840
now there was an added incentive to run a node, not just, you know, spinning up Bitcoin Core on your desktop, but you wanted to have an online one for
363
00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:53.200
a dedicated
364
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hardware on Raspberry Pi to start with,
365
00:20:56.940 --> 00:20:59.485
to use to use a node to run a node,
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a lightning node,
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more specifically.
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So, I mean, to circle back here, Nopar,
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I mean, I appreciate the insight. I think a lot of what you answered my previous question about lessons learned come from
370
00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:20.995
the organization side, running such a a large, free open source project and a a for profit company that's, like, one and the same,
371
00:21:21.695 --> 00:21:23.155
which is actually really novel,
372
00:21:31.725 --> 00:21:34.625
coordinator and collect coin join fees and actually be quite profitable,
373
00:21:35.725 --> 00:21:36.625
is is,
374
00:21:37.404 --> 00:21:43.899
extremely novel. Historically, wallets have had very a lot of difficulty monetizing in an ethical way.
375
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:49.100
Usually, they end up adding fiat, KYC, on ramps, and stuff to try and get fees, which is obviously
376
00:21:49.605 --> 00:21:54.265
really poor incentive, if if you want a free open source project to be focused on privacy.
377
00:21:54.965 --> 00:21:58.505
But I guess the point of my question was more and maybe this is just because
378
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of my perspective.
379
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I mean,
380
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I was
381
00:22:05.370 --> 00:22:08.804
I'd already understood the importance of Bitcoin privacy,
382
00:22:10.385 --> 00:22:16.990
tools mostly because when I was an early Bitcoiner, I made a lot of fucking mistakes, and those mistakes exist on the Ledger.
383
00:22:17.450 --> 00:22:20.510
Like, I made those mistakes. I had no idea what the fuck I was doing,
384
00:22:21.290 --> 00:22:24.590
and they're there. They exist, and all these mistakes are
385
00:22:24.934 --> 00:22:26.235
are expanded even
386
00:22:27.335 --> 00:22:32.554
they're made much worse because of this creeping KYC that that we the KYC, know your customer,
387
00:22:32.950 --> 00:22:33.690
anti money laundering
388
00:22:34.310 --> 00:22:40.410
regulation where they require this really intimate exchanges require this really intimate private information
389
00:22:41.030 --> 00:22:42.330
that they store on you,
390
00:22:43.345 --> 00:22:48.005
that oftentimes gets leaked, hacked. We just had the largest KYC hack ever,
391
00:22:48.705 --> 00:22:53.580
happened, I think, yesterday or it came out yesterday or 2 days ago in India. It was like a 140,000,000
392
00:22:54.120 --> 00:22:54.620
people,
393
00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:57.320
had their intimate personal information leaked,
394
00:22:58.885 --> 00:23:04.025
and that's just gonna get worse and worse and worse. I I as we have more of our personal information online,
395
00:23:04.405 --> 00:23:05.385
it'll undoubtedly
396
00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:08.380
get hacked, sold, leaked
397
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.580
at some point in the future, aggregated and stored insecurely.
398
00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:13.420
So that exacerbates
399
00:23:13.885 --> 00:23:15.745
the Bitcoin privacy concerns,
400
00:23:16.205 --> 00:23:20.065
to me. But I guess I guess that's kinda long winded. My my perspective
401
00:23:20.445 --> 00:23:24.070
has been when Wasabi came out, you know, I was, like, very,
402
00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:29.670
outspoken. Anyone who's around at the time remembers I was a very outspoken Wasabi
403
00:23:30.884 --> 00:23:32.264
user and promoter.
404
00:23:33.284 --> 00:23:33.784
And
405
00:23:34.164 --> 00:23:35.705
I want I I realized,
406
00:23:36.404 --> 00:23:37.465
you know, these tools
407
00:23:38.510 --> 00:23:41.970
allow you the goal of these tools is to hide amongst the crowd.
408
00:23:42.830 --> 00:23:45.090
The the goal of these tools is
409
00:23:45.855 --> 00:23:53.715
is is is you need you need usage for them. You could have the best tool ever, but if there's only 10 people using it,
410
00:23:54.620 --> 00:24:01.120
it doesn't matter what kind of privacy gains you get because you the an attacker still knows you're one of 10 people.
411
00:24:01.765 --> 00:24:04.745
And so so usage is extremely important.
412
00:24:05.125 --> 00:24:08.265
Normalization is extremely important. Getting it up
413
00:24:08.620 --> 00:24:10.320
that getting those numbers up
414
00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:13.360
sooner rather than later is extremely important.
415
00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:16.159
And we exist in a space
416
00:24:16.700 --> 00:24:17.200
where
417
00:24:18.585 --> 00:24:20.765
the people we're up against it's an asymmetrical
418
00:24:21.625 --> 00:24:23.405
asymmetrical fight. The people we're up against
419
00:24:23.705 --> 00:24:28.240
are hiding in the shadows. They don't tell us what they know. They don't tell us what they're doing. They don't tell us,
420
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:38.905
the data they're aggregating on us, but everything we do is in the open. All free open source software development's in the open. The ledger's in the open. All of our activities are in the open.
421
00:24:39.605 --> 00:24:40.745
Education, promotion,
422
00:24:41.365 --> 00:24:49.690
usage, all this is in the open on our side, and the the attackers are are are secretive, and and we don't really know what they're doing. So I guess
423
00:24:50.309 --> 00:24:52.730
where I'm going with this is from my perspective,
424
00:24:55.635 --> 00:24:58.455
myself using Wasabi and other people using Wasabi,
425
00:24:59.075 --> 00:25:00.375
there's there was
426
00:25:00.995 --> 00:25:03.175
and the questions they would ask me,
427
00:25:03.529 --> 00:25:05.630
there was a lot that I learned about
428
00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:07.630
designing
429
00:25:08.090 --> 00:25:09.630
privacy focused software
430
00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:11.870
for an end user in mind.
431
00:25:12.555 --> 00:25:13.615
And I was wondering
432
00:25:14.315 --> 00:25:20.175
what takeaways you had because I know, like and and I guess we could get get into it more, but, like, the I think
433
00:25:20.660 --> 00:25:23.560
am I wrong in saying that the the point of Wasabi Wallet
434
00:25:24.020 --> 00:25:24.520
2.0
435
00:25:24.820 --> 00:25:31.065
is to try and mitigate a lot of the concerns that were learned from a user perspective with Wasabi Wallet 1?
436
00:25:34.245 --> 00:25:34.745
So
437
00:25:36.575 --> 00:25:37.075
yes.
438
00:25:37.970 --> 00:25:40.149
But that's not the
439
00:25:40.690 --> 00:25:43.830
the main point why we started researching it.
440
00:25:44.210 --> 00:25:44.529
The
441
00:25:48.835 --> 00:25:51.895
But but the main point was is that, you know,
442
00:25:52.540 --> 00:25:55.360
But but the main point was is that, you
443
00:25:56.620 --> 00:25:58.240
know, ZeroLink was
444
00:25:59.100 --> 00:26:00.000
figured out,
445
00:26:00.300 --> 00:26:00.800
so
446
00:26:02.155 --> 00:26:02.395
it
447
00:26:03.435 --> 00:26:11.535
no. Actually, Wasabi was figured out, so it breaks the links between the coins that arrives to your wallet
448
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:18.100
through the coins, those are anonymized and private in your wallet.
449
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.340
Like, it it doesn't
450
00:26:21.184 --> 00:26:23.525
it doesn't do do more. Like
451
00:26:25.105 --> 00:26:26.965
anyway, so so the main reason
452
00:26:27.585 --> 00:26:28.645
was is that
453
00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:30.680
we could already
454
00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:32.200
see
455
00:26:32.980 --> 00:26:40.684
and even in in the times of 0ing because I kept opening issues regarding that. But we could already see the huge limitations
456
00:26:41.065 --> 00:26:41.565
what
457
00:26:42.105 --> 00:26:43.885
what Xiaomi and Coin joins
458
00:26:44.424 --> 00:26:45.885
with 0 link applies.
459
00:26:46.290 --> 00:26:46.790
How
460
00:26:48.530 --> 00:26:50.950
what is the potential of them? And
461
00:26:52.290 --> 00:26:55.510
it's it's not great. It doesn't go
462
00:26:56.665 --> 00:26:57.165
much
463
00:26:57.545 --> 00:27:00.445
further than that. It can go further.
464
00:27:01.305 --> 00:27:02.445
What kind of limitations?
465
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.660
Oh, you know, the the minimum denomination,
466
00:27:08.360 --> 00:27:15.554
the this this this this point, what what I just said that it breaks the link between from the wallet, from
467
00:27:16.014 --> 00:27:18.195
the coins receiving to the wallet,
468
00:27:18.495 --> 00:27:20.514
to the coins spending to the wallet,
469
00:27:20.975 --> 00:27:21.475
that
470
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:23.220
there is
471
00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:32.144
there are coins in between. Right? Like, if if you mix a coin, you spend it, and that generates a change, then
472
00:27:32.524 --> 00:27:33.345
that change
473
00:27:34.445 --> 00:27:41.024
shouldn't really go into the mix. I mean, sometimes it's a good idea, but but it's it's not
474
00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:44.690
it's it's not clear. Right? Like, this kind of limitations.
475
00:27:45.310 --> 00:27:46.850
But the the main limitation
476
00:27:47.310 --> 00:27:49.170
is the workspace efficiency.
477
00:27:50.125 --> 00:27:52.145
If we keep creating these
478
00:27:52.845 --> 00:27:53.345
these
479
00:27:54.125 --> 00:27:56.065
simple equal outputs
480
00:27:56.445 --> 00:28:02.100
coin joints, what we are doing right now, then we're going to be priced out very fast.
481
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:03.059
And
482
00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:04.980
and, you know,
483
00:28:05.360 --> 00:28:12.295
I I I think we we don't have a we we are not arguing about that. Right? Like, if more people come to Bitcoin, then
484
00:28:12.595 --> 00:28:14.855
block space goes up. So proportionately,
485
00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:16.850
CoinJoin fees are gonna
486
00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:19.570
be more painful to people than
487
00:28:19.950 --> 00:28:24.610
than it could be. Already priced out. Right? Like, it's it's significantly more expensive
488
00:28:25.265 --> 00:28:26.165
to to use
489
00:28:26.945 --> 00:28:35.540
to to use CoinJoin than to not use CoinJoin. I mean, the the the cheapest way for someone to use Bitcoin is just the worst privacy possible. Right? It's just, like, consolidate all of your
490
00:28:36.320 --> 00:28:40.645
UTXO sent to a single fucking UTXO, and then just spend from that.
491
00:28:42.405 --> 00:28:46.105
Exactly. And, actually, this is this is something what I I
492
00:28:46.405 --> 00:28:47.225
I've learned
493
00:28:47.685 --> 00:28:48.185
that
494
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.860
it never really gets priced out because
495
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:52.900
it will
496
00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:57.140
always be Economica to mix with more Bitcoins.
497
00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:58.020
Right?
498
00:28:58.435 --> 00:29:00.535
And that's that's a problem because
499
00:29:02.035 --> 00:29:04.935
because because it doesn't matter how much money you are
500
00:29:05.290 --> 00:29:09.550
you are transacting with the Bitcoin. What matters is how many
501
00:29:09.930 --> 00:29:18.775
bytes your transactions are using up, how much block space you are using up, and that does not correlate with the amount. So there will always be
502
00:29:20.090 --> 00:29:20.590
economical
503
00:29:21.050 --> 00:29:21.550
to
504
00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:24.030
to mix with with larger amounts.
505
00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:28.350
But, yeah, this this is going up and up and up, the equilibrium.
506
00:29:28.730 --> 00:29:29.230
Right?
507
00:29:29.995 --> 00:29:32.095
Yeah. So, I mean, like, I've come to the conclusion,
508
00:29:35.115 --> 00:29:39.055
that, you know, using Bitcoin privately will always be more expensive, I think.
509
00:29:39.760 --> 00:29:40.760
I I I don't, you know
510
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:46.299
even in, like, a world where we have signature aggregation and we have Lightning and stuff, maybe Lightning
511
00:29:46.755 --> 00:29:59.560
provides some kind of incentive to, you know, use Bitcoin more privately that's cheaper for you and we can get into that later. But I've kinda come to the conclusion that it'll always be more expensive. The goal should be maybe to make it only slightly more expensive.
512
00:30:00.820 --> 00:30:02.600
But when it comes to to
513
00:30:04.405 --> 00:30:06.905
when it comes to to increasing adoption,
514
00:30:08.565 --> 00:30:22.059
obviously, the single most important thing you can do is is lower costs. But I think the the the other two big things that people don't really talk about is, first of all, UX is is super fucking important. And I wanna dive into this with Open Arms because of,
515
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:23.019
you know,
516
00:30:23.384 --> 00:30:27.164
Join Market was around. I think it it launched in 2015 as a project.
517
00:30:27.625 --> 00:30:32.125
Correct. And and it never really got that much adoption, I think, primarily because
518
00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:40.640
of UX. And we can jump in that in a second. But the other thing that I've noticed that I've learned from an education point of view on the front lines with users,
519
00:30:42.325 --> 00:30:45.785
who I've provided workshops for and handheld them and stuff,
520
00:30:46.165 --> 00:30:48.905
is, like, the defaults are super fucking important.
521
00:30:49.529 --> 00:30:50.029
99%
522
00:30:50.409 --> 00:30:53.309
of people will never fucking change the defaults.
523
00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:58.669
And if if if if an educator or a promoter is trying to increase adoption of something,
524
00:30:59.775 --> 00:31:00.675
telling them,
525
00:31:01.455 --> 00:31:02.115
you know,
526
00:31:03.215 --> 00:31:18.565
if you have a bunch of gotchas that you have to tell them every time you try and onboard someone new, you know, change this, change that, make sure you don't do this, make sure you don't do that, make sure you don't do this. They're especially in a world where all you have to do is make one mistake in privacy and it's on the ledger forever and you're fucked.
527
00:31:20.245 --> 00:31:27.705
It's just a it's a losing strategy. It's a strategy where you just, you know, I it it's it's you're you're trying to run uphill.
528
00:31:28.850 --> 00:31:37.190
And and we've seen this with with Open Arms is he's he's packaged join market into this into this, like, raspi image
529
00:31:37.615 --> 00:31:38.355
and join
530
00:31:38.735 --> 00:31:43.235
inbox to try and make the default experience of join market better.
531
00:31:44.335 --> 00:31:54.340
Nopar, would you agree with me there that, like, that that most users aren't changing defaults and, like, you know, having sane reasonable defaults is is, like, really the only way to go forward with this?
532
00:31:54.905 --> 00:31:56.045
Oh, abs absolutely.
533
00:31:57.225 --> 00:31:57.625
In fact,
534
00:31:58.265 --> 00:32:08.650
you can go even further and, you know, I I I'm pretty sure you encounter this situation many times when you're talking with someone who who is into Monero, and
535
00:32:09.270 --> 00:32:11.050
and they they are talking about
536
00:32:12.565 --> 00:32:15.544
when Monero have privacy by default, and,
537
00:32:16.164 --> 00:32:26.570
you know, they they bring this up as an argument. Like, that's not what you would want, but that's exactly our goal with Bitcoin. Right? Privacy by default.
538
00:32:27.110 --> 00:32:32.855
Now will we ever get there? That's a that's a good question, but that's definitely the
539
00:32:34.435 --> 00:32:36.455
I always think it's work. Yeah. Yeah.
540
00:32:37.475 --> 00:32:40.695
Sorry for cutting you off. I mean, I just always think it's so interesting that,
541
00:32:42.020 --> 00:32:43.880
you know, there's all these insecure Bitcoiners
542
00:32:44.340 --> 00:32:49.080
that when people like us talk about, you know, improving Bitcoin privacy guarantees,
543
00:32:50.815 --> 00:32:54.035
They think it's, like, some kind of underhanded promotion of Monero.
544
00:32:54.575 --> 00:32:55.315
But, really,
545
00:32:55.775 --> 00:32:56.275
like,
546
00:32:57.135 --> 00:33:00.115
the the biggest existential threat to Monero
547
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:08.020
is that Bitcoin is easier to use privately. Like, if we're successful here, like, there's absolutely no reason to use Monero. So it's absolutely hilarious to me,
548
00:33:09.040 --> 00:33:09.860
how often
549
00:33:10.394 --> 00:33:16.894
I have people, like, chirping at me that, you know, like, I'm, like, secretly promoting Monero. It makes no fucking sense logically.
550
00:33:19.700 --> 00:33:20.919
So, I mean, the
551
00:33:21.860 --> 00:33:28.840
the this work that they are doing is very important. Right? Like, if Bitcoin would really stay at it is today,
552
00:33:29.764 --> 00:33:33.144
in terms of privacy, then the only thing that would
553
00:33:33.684 --> 00:33:34.985
save a totalitarian,
554
00:33:36.565 --> 00:33:37.465
smart surveillance,
555
00:33:38.210 --> 00:33:39.350
Fortica system
556
00:33:40.050 --> 00:33:47.590
would be like a private Altcoin. So so I think it's very important that they are doing it. It's just my calculation is that,
557
00:33:48.595 --> 00:33:51.735
probably people don't care that much and gonna use Bitcoin
558
00:33:52.435 --> 00:33:54.695
anyway even if it's not private.
559
00:33:56.429 --> 00:33:58.929
Yeah. I mean, my perspective is I think Bitcoin,
560
00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:01.650
you know, is gonna be successful. So,
561
00:34:02.110 --> 00:34:05.745
if if we expect wide spread Bitcoin usage, then the focus,
562
00:34:06.205 --> 00:34:14.790
as a as someone who cares about privacy should be, you know, making it easier to use privately as much as possible because I I I think it's gonna be super successful regardless.
563
00:34:15.730 --> 00:34:24.664
Open Arms. So you wanna give some insight here in your your opinion on on your work on joining joining Box and and why defaults are important, why UX is important,
564
00:34:24.964 --> 00:34:37.430
why accessibility is important, why we have to increase these numbers. Like, I I really do feel like, like, how many CoinJoin users do we think there are, guys? Like, do we think are are there more than 10,000 people in the world using CoinJoin right now?
565
00:34:40.195 --> 00:34:42.135
That would've make sense if you could tell.
566
00:34:43.315 --> 00:34:49.039
But gut. Just saying gut. I think that's a very conservative overestimate. I think we're not even near 10,000.
567
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:56.895
Yes. I mean, what I can see in the joint market order book, we have usually have between
568
00:34:57.675 --> 00:34:58.735
102 100 offers,
569
00:34:59.835 --> 00:35:00.575
which means
570
00:35:01.275 --> 00:35:02.655
those are separate wallets,
571
00:35:03.515 --> 00:35:06.650
not necessarily separate people, but, you know.
572
00:35:07.430 --> 00:35:08.650
It's an upper bound.
573
00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:14.250
It is. The the the max it probably is is the max it is is, like, 200 people.
574
00:35:15.355 --> 00:35:16.415
Yeah. Of makers.
575
00:35:16.715 --> 00:35:17.615
Yes. Right.
576
00:35:18.315 --> 00:35:20.255
Of makers who are running at the time.
577
00:35:21.035 --> 00:35:21.535
Right?
578
00:35:21.915 --> 00:35:22.415
But
579
00:35:23.380 --> 00:35:25.539
so so yes. So coming to join market it's it's,
580
00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:30.099
it's a great rabbit hole, you know. I was I was very very,
581
00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:33.815
happy to fall down into. But to be honest, it
582
00:35:34.195 --> 00:35:36.615
needed some, you know, previous training with
583
00:35:37.475 --> 00:35:38.615
being familiar with
584
00:35:41.640 --> 00:35:42.539
Bitcoin transactions
585
00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:49.020
and, like, derivation parts, you know, things like gap limit and, you know, things that you would not
586
00:35:49.995 --> 00:35:50.495
just
587
00:35:52.235 --> 00:36:06.380
have when you that the only thing which you have used is a mobile wallet before. But if you if you have run a node and you have seen the command line before, then I think it it is a very good thing to look into what this
588
00:36:06.680 --> 00:36:07.180
OG
589
00:36:07.720 --> 00:36:08.220
and
590
00:36:08.755 --> 00:36:09.255
continuously
591
00:36:09.875 --> 00:36:12.535
improved wallet is able to offer.
592
00:36:13.075 --> 00:36:22.670
So if you've used, like, Bitcoin Core in the in the command line, but then it's nothing stopping you to use join market as well. Join market also has
593
00:36:23.530 --> 00:36:24.280
a QT
594
00:36:24.785 --> 00:36:28.005
interface similar to what Bitcoin Core offers,
595
00:36:28.464 --> 00:36:34.700
which is, like, you where you can do coin control with a click of a button and you can like send
596
00:36:35.160 --> 00:36:39.180
coin joins and send and receive page joins as well. So
597
00:36:40.845 --> 00:36:43.825
so so it is it is very very usable, but it has
598
00:36:44.525 --> 00:36:45.025
this,
599
00:36:46.045 --> 00:36:46.545
requirement
600
00:36:46.925 --> 00:36:47.724
that you need to
601
00:36:48.730 --> 00:36:55.150
you must run a full node because that's what this connecting to. It needs it needs a Bitcoin RPC interface
602
00:36:55.609 --> 00:36:57.069
provided by Bitcoin Core
603
00:36:58.010 --> 00:36:58.510
to
604
00:36:59.035 --> 00:36:59.535
interact
605
00:37:00.235 --> 00:37:02.975
with the network and get the information out of your balances
606
00:37:03.355 --> 00:37:04.335
and your transactions.
607
00:37:04.955 --> 00:37:05.455
So
608
00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:08.630
that's kind of the first thing which
609
00:37:10.770 --> 00:37:13.829
could have been I mean, which could have, improved
610
00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:14.710
a lot
611
00:37:15.355 --> 00:37:17.615
with just packaging it into into
612
00:37:18.075 --> 00:37:21.454
basically. And then also it it works as a as a standalone
613
00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:25.030
in in joining box. So you just
614
00:37:25.810 --> 00:37:38.915
spared that kind of setup process that now you need to set up a full node and install a Python package. All of this works best in Linux. So if you're not running Linux that you are in a bit of a difficulty, although you have, like,
615
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:43.300
a windows dot x as well, which you can try. But
616
00:37:44.160 --> 00:37:44.660
yeah.
617
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:46.425
And and you can use
618
00:37:46.825 --> 00:37:50.685
something like Wasabi as well in in Windows, but, you know, I wouldn't trust,
619
00:37:51.625 --> 00:37:59.070
any significant amounts on a computer running closed source this fiber. Does the Bitcoin privacy discussion start with Linux?
620
00:38:00.970 --> 00:38:02.270
Yes. I think so.
621
00:38:03.505 --> 00:38:05.525
As as as I've said in the in the beginning,
622
00:38:06.145 --> 00:38:09.445
you know, there are different levels to this in in in your life.
623
00:38:09.985 --> 00:38:10.485
And
624
00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:12.480
starting with not leaking
625
00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:13.840
everything
626
00:38:14.140 --> 00:38:17.200
or a lot of things without your knowledge out of your computer
627
00:38:17.955 --> 00:38:20.215
is the first step to have better privacy.
628
00:38:21.075 --> 00:38:24.695
And then you you can move on to your phone and then,
629
00:38:24.995 --> 00:38:26.055
you know, you can
630
00:38:27.550 --> 00:38:28.770
transition try to,
631
00:38:29.390 --> 00:38:30.130
work towards
632
00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:35.650
running software only which you trust or which is auditable and which is
633
00:38:37.025 --> 00:38:44.645
based on freedom, basically. But And and this yes? There's 2 things here, Open Arms. Right? There's there's on chain footprint
634
00:38:45.160 --> 00:38:54.299
and and how your transactions look on chain, on on a chain that we expect to exist forever. We I like, I expect Yes. The Bitcoin Blockchain to outlive me. Right?
635
00:38:54.825 --> 00:38:59.885
Outlive my grandkids, outlive their grandkids. Like, this fucking thing is gonna be there forever. So you have the on chain footprint,
636
00:39:00.505 --> 00:39:05.230
that is on this ledger forever that everyone can view and inspect forever.
637
00:39:06.170 --> 00:39:07.310
And then you have
638
00:39:07.849 --> 00:39:09.470
this, like, network level,
639
00:39:11.985 --> 00:39:14.085
advanced attacker type of
640
00:39:15.105 --> 00:39:19.205
threat. Right? Where, like, Windows is closed source. Right? So maybe
641
00:39:19.700 --> 00:39:36.734
maybe information is leaking through your Windows computer to Microsoft or some kind of closed source vendor that's operating on on a Microsoft product or Apple or something like that Oh, yeah. Or your phone or something like that. But do we agree to Alexa and Google Home and etcetera. Yeah. Right. Like people have yeah. People have fucking
642
00:39:37.530 --> 00:39:44.670
they buy wiretaps, and they install them in their house that are run by global corporations that coordinate with governments. Exactly. That's the first step.
643
00:39:44.970 --> 00:39:47.150
But but would you agree though that
644
00:39:47.775 --> 00:39:48.275
from
645
00:39:50.175 --> 00:39:55.235
a overarching basis, if we're looking at trying to help the most amount of users,
646
00:39:57.700 --> 00:39:59.480
have some kind of decent privacy
647
00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:01.240
improvements with Bitcoin,
648
00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:02.280
the
649
00:40:03.140 --> 00:40:11.825
the on chain footprint is first place to start. It's almost the it's the it's the thing that's gonna be there forever. It's it's the lowest hanging fruit.
650
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:20.960
Yeah. No. Absolutely agree. I mean, so and and sorry for kind of, you know, did I link the conversation to to No. I love this. This is great. Continue. What software you are using?
651
00:40:21.645 --> 00:40:23.985
But I just tried to kind of explain why
652
00:40:24.285 --> 00:40:26.145
why it is difficult to get joint markets
653
00:40:26.845 --> 00:40:36.260
to get started with joint markets first of all because it's based in these principles that you already through these steps before. Right? That you are your kind of software practice
654
00:40:37.015 --> 00:40:40.955
or, like, informatic technology practice is already
655
00:40:41.575 --> 00:40:49.080
kind of at level where you can deal with the command line. Right? But it's obvious this is not true for most people and, you know, you shouldn't be,
656
00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:51.400
spending that much time,
657
00:40:51.940 --> 00:40:57.835
I mean, for for an average or if you are not a software developer or like a Bitcoin fanatic like us. Right? So
658
00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:07.720
that's why we have these note packages and that's why I've I've tried to put it as easy as possible to just install
659
00:41:08.835 --> 00:41:16.215
from a menu, you know press a button basically, and then you are provided with an interface which is an interactive guide which which
660
00:41:16.930 --> 00:41:22.310
where you see the options what you can do, and you don't need to look up any unfamiliar syntax in the,
661
00:41:23.250 --> 00:41:27.535
in the command line, which is but it shows you what it does,
662
00:41:27.835 --> 00:41:31.295
but you can just choose what you want to do. You don't need to look it up. So
663
00:41:31.595 --> 00:41:32.095
this
664
00:41:32.555 --> 00:41:38.150
kind of approach is just an interactive guide, so you don't need to follow a tutorial, but the tutorial is inside there.
665
00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:47.555
And I mean so I've seen that people do enjoy and and I I know a lot of people who have started to use your own market because of this.
666
00:41:47.935 --> 00:41:50.355
And then once you get used to it,
667
00:41:50.895 --> 00:41:51.635
it is
668
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:53.180
it has such,
669
00:41:54.200 --> 00:41:55.580
a wealth of functions
670
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:57.020
that you can do
671
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.100
the most most things which other wallets do as well.
672
00:42:02.295 --> 00:42:03.515
And there are advantages
673
00:42:04.135 --> 00:42:05.515
of the architecture,
674
00:42:05.815 --> 00:42:08.234
how it is how it is built up. Because
675
00:42:08.775 --> 00:42:10.450
I the most important thing,
676
00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:13.510
I see with coin joints
677
00:42:13.890 --> 00:42:17.270
and as we've discussed before as well and which is somewhat
678
00:42:17.570 --> 00:42:18.310
kind of
679
00:42:19.235 --> 00:42:19.975
makes it
680
00:42:20.355 --> 00:42:20.855
complicated
681
00:42:21.395 --> 00:42:23.575
and what it is not present in in Waselby
682
00:42:24.115 --> 00:42:27.815
that you have this mixed debts or different accounts idea
683
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:29.660
that you're separating the
684
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.619
those coins which have not been mixed,
685
00:42:33.240 --> 00:42:34.619
those which have been
686
00:42:35.455 --> 00:42:39.155
through a coin join, and the change from those transactions.
687
00:42:41.135 --> 00:42:44.755
And, this happens in join markets in a way that it has
688
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:46.900
kind of a circular build
689
00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:49.940
of circular architecture of 5 accounts,
690
00:42:50.720 --> 00:42:52.180
also called mixed debts,
691
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:55.265
where the coins are just tumbling through
692
00:42:55.645 --> 00:42:58.705
only only able to progress between an account
693
00:42:59.244 --> 00:43:06.900
from an account to another if they are going through a coin join. And the unmixed change from that transaction is left behind in the previous account
694
00:43:07.200 --> 00:43:09.140
and the coin join output
695
00:43:09.745 --> 00:43:14.565
is progressing to the next account. And, also, how the wallet is written,
696
00:43:15.185 --> 00:43:19.670
I mean, obviously, you have all freedom to do whatever you like, but the default is
697
00:43:20.130 --> 00:43:22.230
that you are not allowed to spend
698
00:43:22.770 --> 00:43:23.830
not allowed to merge
699
00:43:24.450 --> 00:43:26.470
coins between different accounts.
700
00:43:26.770 --> 00:43:30.975
Meaning, you are not merging the coin joint outputs with the omnix transactions.
701
00:43:32.555 --> 00:43:34.015
And and this
702
00:43:34.475 --> 00:43:44.150
this is something which is, you know, the the basic principle of of dealing with joint market. And, also, it just needs a bit of understanding because you deposit some money, deposit some Bitcoin,
703
00:43:44.530 --> 00:43:52.744
and then it goes through a couple of coin joints and, oh, where where did it go? Where it didn't go, it's still in the wallet, but it's in a different account separated.
704
00:43:55.080 --> 00:43:58.300
So let's pull those back for a second for the freaks in the back who
705
00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:00.620
are completely fucking lost right now.
706
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:01.500
Definitely.
707
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:02.680
The the
708
00:44:03.464 --> 00:44:07.565
I I I think the the place where we should start here is coin control.
709
00:44:08.665 --> 00:44:11.005
Coin control is this idea that
710
00:44:11.700 --> 00:44:14.599
for a lot of the freaks, your wallet that you're used to using,
711
00:44:15.859 --> 00:44:20.785
on mobile or even, like, one of the mainstream hardware wallets, like a treasure wallet
712
00:44:21.345 --> 00:44:22.805
dottreasure.io or ledger,
713
00:44:24.625 --> 00:44:25.125
it
714
00:44:25.505 --> 00:44:33.359
they they hide they hide the the gory details from you because they want to make it easier for you. But what they do
715
00:44:33.740 --> 00:44:36.320
is is is really when you have a wallet and it says,
716
00:44:36.765 --> 00:44:39.825
let's say, it's it says you have 40,000,000 sats in your wallet.
717
00:44:40.365 --> 00:44:40.865
Really,
718
00:44:41.244 --> 00:44:42.065
it's not
719
00:44:42.684 --> 00:44:47.369
just 40,000,000 sats in your wallet. There's all these different transactions in your wallet.
720
00:44:47.750 --> 00:45:22.440
UTXO's unspent transaction outputs is what we call them that add up to 40,000,000 sats. So you have, like, one that's 10,000,000 sat, one that's 5,000,000 sat, one that's 15,000,000 sat, and they're all coming from presumably different sources. If I if I pay if I pay Open Arms 5,000,000 sats and his mom for Christmas pays him 3,000,000 sats, his wallet says 8,000,000 sats, but, really, there's one transaction for me and one transaction from his mom. So if he chooses the transaction for me to spend it, if he spends it if he combines those together, then me and his mom both know he owns that other transaction.
721
00:45:23.380 --> 00:45:25.079
So there's this there's this,
722
00:45:27.245 --> 00:45:27.805
there was this I'm gonna
723
00:45:28.685 --> 00:45:35.505
Unfortunately, you should pay heuristic. Correct? Right. But unfortunately, in Bitcoin land, there was this push by all these software wallet makers
724
00:45:36.030 --> 00:45:40.450
to kinda hide that from the user, and it it was a major negative to privacy.
725
00:45:41.150 --> 00:45:45.330
So now we have wallets like Wasabi, you know, Joy Market already had coin control.
726
00:45:45.845 --> 00:45:47.785
Bitcoin Core has always had coin control.
727
00:45:48.484 --> 00:45:50.585
But Wasabi was, like, one of the first
728
00:45:53.319 --> 00:46:12.590
consumer grade wallets for, like, the average consumer that just fucking put it right in front of you. You you had to use coin control, they forced it on you, and you had to label everything. And labeling is important because in 5 years when it comes time to spend, you're not gonna remember which transaction came from me and which transaction came from Open Arms' mom, so you need to fucking label it. But the problem exists
729
00:46:13.370 --> 00:46:16.110
that if we're trying to increase adoption here,
730
00:46:16.650 --> 00:46:18.170
expecting a user to
731
00:46:19.085 --> 00:46:19.984
it's like the unfortunate
732
00:46:20.285 --> 00:46:23.664
like, expecting a user to, like, use critical thinking and logic
733
00:46:24.365 --> 00:46:28.384
for every transaction they make and selecting their their inputs
734
00:46:29.230 --> 00:46:33.970
seems like a lost fucking cause. Like, how many users can we expect to do that?
735
00:46:35.150 --> 00:46:39.445
Is that is that am I wrong here? Like, is it is it am I just jaded?
736
00:46:41.185 --> 00:46:42.325
Oh, you're absolutely
737
00:46:43.025 --> 00:46:44.485
correct. I mean,
738
00:46:45.665 --> 00:46:46.485
the last
739
00:46:46.950 --> 00:46:47.770
last many,
740
00:46:48.630 --> 00:46:53.050
one and a half year, I was thinking about how to remove coin control.
741
00:46:53.510 --> 00:46:54.010
And
742
00:46:54.310 --> 00:46:55.290
what does
743
00:46:55.725 --> 00:46:56.385
coin control
744
00:46:56.845 --> 00:46:57.325
really
745
00:46:57.725 --> 00:47:03.985
what what's the purpose behind it? Like, what what what does this one to to actually do? And
746
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:05.380
and,
747
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:07.219
you
748
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:11.220
know, yeah, I I I go into this. So,
749
00:47:13.235 --> 00:47:14.135
I think
750
00:47:14.595 --> 00:47:16.935
there are 22 very important
751
00:47:17.235 --> 00:47:18.135
things here
752
00:47:18.755 --> 00:47:19.255
is
753
00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:20.680
coin control.
754
00:47:21.700 --> 00:47:22.840
You want to somehow
755
00:47:23.140 --> 00:47:24.520
this is somehow
756
00:47:25.700 --> 00:47:31.385
avoid change. This is change avoidance. You want to avoid changes in transactions, and
757
00:47:32.485 --> 00:47:36.870
and and we will have a solution for that. But the other other thing is which
758
00:47:37.350 --> 00:47:40.810
which is which is the labels or or more
759
00:47:41.910 --> 00:47:42.810
more precisely,
760
00:47:43.910 --> 00:47:51.585
what you're really interested in is about not the individual coins in terms of privacy, but what you're interested in is the
761
00:47:52.365 --> 00:47:53.025
the wallet,
762
00:47:53.405 --> 00:47:54.224
the clusters
763
00:47:54.525 --> 00:47:55.025
that
764
00:47:55.420 --> 00:47:58.480
an outside blockchain analysis might establish
765
00:47:59.180 --> 00:48:01.040
from your wallet content. And
766
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:03.520
that makes it much
767
00:48:04.404 --> 00:48:04.904
simpler
768
00:48:05.444 --> 00:48:09.765
if if you think about it. Because instead of having a 100 coin in your wallet
769
00:48:10.964 --> 00:48:15.809
seeing a 100 coin in your wallet now, you would only see a couple of
770
00:48:16.109 --> 00:48:16.609
clusters
771
00:48:17.069 --> 00:48:18.369
belonging to multi,
772
00:48:20.190 --> 00:48:24.355
connected to multiple entities who might know about those clusters.
773
00:48:25.295 --> 00:48:28.755
And and I think we can do that. But even further,
774
00:48:29.695 --> 00:48:30.195
but,
775
00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:35.980
well, a long time ago, we realized is that, you know, there isn't
776
00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:38.860
money much difference between
777
00:48:39.655 --> 00:48:41.195
mixed coins. Like,
778
00:48:43.095 --> 00:48:44.235
there is no reason
779
00:48:44.855 --> 00:48:47.835
to have coin control for mixed coins
780
00:48:48.375 --> 00:48:48.875
except
781
00:48:49.850 --> 00:48:52.030
chain ex except for change avoidance.
782
00:48:53.130 --> 00:48:53.630
And
783
00:48:53.930 --> 00:48:54.990
and yeah. So
784
00:48:55.530 --> 00:48:58.350
I think we should be able to remove it.
785
00:48:59.785 --> 00:49:08.685
Yeah. But so two things there. Let's unpack that a little bit. First of all, that last point is one of the reasons why I've been so outspoken about equal output coin joints,
786
00:49:09.450 --> 00:49:12.430
or just some kind like, this idea that
787
00:49:13.130 --> 00:49:16.510
it allows you to almost press a reset button on a coin's history.
788
00:49:17.444 --> 00:49:24.345
You know, you have a wallet that has a bunch of UTXO's and you didn't fucking do any labeling at the time. You have no idea,
789
00:49:25.160 --> 00:49:26.780
where any of those came from.
790
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:28.540
If you had a
791
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:30.940
a effective coin join
792
00:49:32.355 --> 00:49:32.855
implementation
793
00:49:33.234 --> 00:49:37.415
that you could use, you could almost, in effect, reset all of those UTXO's
794
00:49:37.795 --> 00:49:38.934
back to a base
795
00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:41.960
where where it doesn't matter which one you spend.
796
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:44.359
So there's a way to kind of
797
00:49:47.465 --> 00:49:49.645
reduce the need necessarily for
798
00:49:50.425 --> 00:49:54.445
for stringent recording and coin and coin control usage by an individual.
799
00:49:55.789 --> 00:49:56.609
I I
800
00:49:56.910 --> 00:49:59.809
it it's it seems like it's mostly a dream still,
801
00:50:00.269 --> 00:50:09.845
but there's something to be said there, especially if you use it in terms of and we'll get into this later, but something like lightning. Right? Where you if a while, like, automatically
802
00:50:10.625 --> 00:50:21.970
turns turns an output that you don't know what the history of it is into a coin join output, resets it, and then opens a channel with it, and then you spend on lightning going forward to have, like, some kind of level of forward privacy.
803
00:50:22.984 --> 00:50:25.725
The first thing you mentioned, are you, like, implying that
804
00:50:26.105 --> 00:50:29.805
to have, like, a wallet that that almost runs, like, on the fly chain analysis
805
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:33.240
on your on your UTXO's to group them together?
806
00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:38.920
Yes. Exactly. It's much easier to do if you know exactly the wallet content.
807
00:50:41.125 --> 00:50:44.585
But, I mean, that's that'd be very computationally intensive. Right?
808
00:50:45.845 --> 00:50:56.875
Oh, no. Because you know the wallet content. You know exactly what came came from where, and then you can apply some basic heuristic, like, common ownership heuristics and, you know, use labeling,
809
00:50:57.255 --> 00:50:57.755
though?
810
00:50:58.695 --> 00:51:05.400
Is that what you're insinuating? Like, you use the labels to group them together, or is is the user is the user providing any information here?
811
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.619
Yes. You use the labels to to create the clusters.
812
00:51:12.415 --> 00:51:22.195
I mean, this this is quite quite simple thing if you see the transaction graph and you have the you have the history of the coins and you have, obviously, the wallets already
813
00:51:22.580 --> 00:51:23.080
together.
814
00:51:23.380 --> 00:51:23.880
Like,
815
00:51:24.420 --> 00:51:26.600
joint market has automatic labeling
816
00:51:27.060 --> 00:51:28.920
as well, and this exactly,
817
00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:33.235
by these principles with a very simple kind of
818
00:51:33.695 --> 00:51:38.355
couple of lines of Python script. It does label the UTXOs to to
819
00:51:40.140 --> 00:51:40.640
deposit,
820
00:51:41.020 --> 00:51:42.720
change outputs, a non
821
00:51:43.900 --> 00:51:49.385
coin joint output, a coin joint output, and like address reused and things like that.
822
00:51:50.985 --> 00:51:52.125
So so, I mean,
823
00:51:52.905 --> 00:51:59.085
it is a transaction analysis rather than chain analysis, I would say, because the it doesn't really go back in the history.
824
00:52:02.110 --> 00:52:03.490
Yes. That's a good point.
825
00:52:04.590 --> 00:52:05.490
I mean, it's
826
00:52:06.270 --> 00:52:07.570
it's kind of,
827
00:52:09.735 --> 00:52:10.775
I mean, would do we
828
00:52:11.735 --> 00:52:13.835
are we expecting, like are
829
00:52:14.215 --> 00:52:19.035
are are these, like, you know, so called compliance bros? Are we gonna have, like
830
00:52:20.990 --> 00:52:27.330
I guess I'm kind of just getting really tangential here, but I'm gonna come back, but do we do we expect that they're gonna have, like, merchant wallets
831
00:52:27.945 --> 00:52:34.045
that are designed to actually, like, integrate some of these chain surveillance companies to do, like, on the fly fucking
832
00:52:36.019 --> 00:52:39.960
transaction analysis as as you're paying them? Like, are are is this a concern?
833
00:52:40.339 --> 00:52:53.660
That's already happening with the exchanges. Right? I mean, you know, all the all all the ones which are flagging coin joints, you know, they But, I mean, are is, like, a are we gonna have, like, a pop popular mobile wallets implemented and shit? Like obviously the custodial platforms are already doing this behind closed doors.
834
00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.835
I mean, there is Perogales, for example, which does show you this kind of transaction analysis
835
00:53:04.255 --> 00:53:08.275
write up, you know, of the bet on the on the GUI of the wallet.
836
00:53:08.789 --> 00:53:18.010
Obviously, it doesn't go back into the history, but it's good. There is no reason to to not do that. But that's the point that it should make no
837
00:53:18.405 --> 00:53:22.825
sense to do it because it should be just a mess. That's what we are trying to,
838
00:53:23.525 --> 00:53:27.250
achieve to improve the entropy of these transactions and, you know, just
839
00:53:27.810 --> 00:53:28.610
then you are just,
840
00:53:29.250 --> 00:53:31.030
kind of, fishing in the
841
00:53:31.330 --> 00:53:32.870
in the modern waters
842
00:53:33.250 --> 00:53:36.290
for some kind of information that but there would be no
843
00:53:36.785 --> 00:53:38.405
nothing which you can find out.
844
00:53:40.545 --> 00:53:42.325
So so yeah. Yeah. Go.
845
00:53:43.984 --> 00:53:47.380
Yeah. That that's a good point that, you know, when you're mixing, then
846
00:53:47.680 --> 00:53:52.020
it doesn't have to do any chain analysis because on your mixed coins,
847
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:58.964
the only thing that coin control does at that point is that you can avoid changes. And if you can
848
00:53:59.345 --> 00:54:01.045
implement something that
849
00:54:01.505 --> 00:54:03.365
helps the user avoid changes,
850
00:54:03.665 --> 00:54:07.280
then you don't need coin control for mixed coins.
851
00:54:07.820 --> 00:54:09.760
Now for not mixed coins,
852
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:12.960
which are the labeled coins,
853
00:54:13.985 --> 00:54:14.885
that's where
854
00:54:15.265 --> 00:54:16.985
Chainalysis must be
855
00:54:17.425 --> 00:54:20.405
well, okay. So I I think we don't have
856
00:54:20.865 --> 00:54:22.485
a a choice here. Right? Like,
857
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:28.780
one choice is that we don't do any coin control and any blockchain on any wallet
858
00:54:30.600 --> 00:54:31.580
inter wallets
859
00:54:32.395 --> 00:54:36.415
analysis. I'm I'm not sure how how to to call it, but
860
00:54:36.955 --> 00:54:38.895
that's that's a bad thing. Right? Because
861
00:54:39.460 --> 00:54:43.960
then everything is connected together like like in in normal valets. You eventually
862
00:54:44.260 --> 00:54:45.080
end up
863
00:54:45.700 --> 00:54:48.200
end up connecting together with common ownership
864
00:54:48.795 --> 00:54:54.495
heuristics or your UTXs. So that's not good. So you you have to have coin control then,
865
00:54:54.875 --> 00:55:01.020
or this kind of chain are easy too, which makes it somewhat easier than a coin control.
866
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:04.060
I mean, the the one solution
867
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:06.620
or or, like, help here is,
868
00:55:07.404 --> 00:55:08.464
obviously we are
869
00:55:08.845 --> 00:55:10.065
thinking along alongside
870
00:55:10.525 --> 00:55:16.000
that, you have a mixed coin and it doesn't matter which one you spend you spend and but unfortunately
871
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:17.440
it's very rarely
872
00:55:18.140 --> 00:55:30.775
possible that you won't have a change. And then, okay, you have one change and you labeled that that you have you have paid for groceries or whatever, and then you make another donation for like HRF or anything, and then maybe
873
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:35.460
you do send another one to tool project, which might have be seen,
874
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:40.500
kind of it could be even illegal in your country. And then
875
00:55:41.185 --> 00:55:44.245
you have 3 changes like this. And then when you
876
00:55:45.185 --> 00:55:45.685
send
877
00:55:46.065 --> 00:55:47.365
these changes together,
878
00:55:48.145 --> 00:55:48.645
then
879
00:55:48.990 --> 00:55:55.970
it will be obvious to the one who you're who you're paying with this merge transaction that you've been paying to a project
880
00:55:57.015 --> 00:55:57.994
and the grocery
881
00:55:58.295 --> 00:56:03.915
shop and the, and HRF as well. And, also, we'll see that's how much it was.
882
00:56:04.660 --> 00:56:05.880
But Uh-huh. Unless
883
00:56:07.460 --> 00:56:13.079
Yes. I mean, that's where this kind of so called post mix tools or kind of the spending
884
00:56:13.395 --> 00:56:14.215
can be different
885
00:56:14.515 --> 00:56:29.010
like you can do with some implementations. For example, in join market, you can pay with inside a coin join. Also, you can use page join where the transaction amount is not obvious and also the common ownership
886
00:56:29.535 --> 00:56:32.755
common input ownership is broken as well. So,
887
00:56:34.655 --> 00:56:36.195
you know, there are ways to
888
00:56:36.590 --> 00:56:39.570
make that change coming from the spending of that,
889
00:56:40.350 --> 00:56:42.530
mixed UTX, so not be
890
00:56:43.070 --> 00:56:44.235
toxic so called.
891
00:56:45.515 --> 00:56:54.670
Yeah. Yes. So that that's a good point. So for example, page join is a is a somewhat of a solution to that. Mixing the change is somewhat of a solution.
892
00:56:55.770 --> 00:56:59.555
The question is, how would you avoid change without coin control?
893
00:57:07.795 --> 00:57:08.295
A
894
00:57:08.900 --> 00:57:10.980
then you click continue. And there is a
895
00:57:11.700 --> 00:57:17.080
you you don't send a transaction just yet, but there is a there is a there is a screen
896
00:57:17.540 --> 00:57:18.040
that
897
00:57:18.845 --> 00:57:20.465
that gives you 3 options.
898
00:57:21.085 --> 00:57:22.465
One of the option is
899
00:57:23.245 --> 00:57:28.670
you you you continue normally. Like, you send the exact amount that you typed
900
00:57:29.150 --> 00:57:34.770
in. The other two option is that you send a little bit less or a little bit more.
901
00:57:35.309 --> 00:57:35.809
And,
902
00:57:36.414 --> 00:57:40.515
you know, that little bit less and little bit more is not going
903
00:57:41.055 --> 00:57:42.434
to generate changes.
904
00:57:43.740 --> 00:57:46.700
So I think that's an elegant way of of,
905
00:57:47.260 --> 00:57:52.160
trying to tackle this issue, and then we'll see what happens in practice. But we'll yeah.
906
00:57:52.715 --> 00:57:54.175
I I I'm hopeful.
907
00:57:55.675 --> 00:57:56.815
Yeah. And then also,
908
00:57:57.275 --> 00:57:59.535
another very obvious solution, which I do
909
00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:01.160
like to use now
910
00:58:01.540 --> 00:58:11.875
is to go to layers too. So you have a coin, which is a coin joint output, and especially in in June market, it can be any amount. Right? There are no mixed pools,
911
00:58:13.215 --> 00:58:19.300
but but no fixed amount pools, but you can coin join any amount you like. It will be an equal amount
912
00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:21.940
coin join, equal amount output,
913
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.380
but only within that coin join. So you will have various
914
00:58:25.955 --> 00:58:26.455
various,
915
00:58:26.915 --> 00:58:35.495
sizes of coins in in your wallet, especially if you're running as a maker and you will allow other people to use your liquidity to coin join with. And you can take
916
00:58:36.550 --> 00:58:39.190
size UTXO you like. For example, I'm
917
00:58:39.670 --> 00:58:40.570
I don't know, will,
918
00:58:41.110 --> 00:58:43.275
want to spend, you know, £300
919
00:58:43.655 --> 00:58:44.315
on groceries
920
00:58:44.695 --> 00:58:45.435
this month
921
00:58:45.975 --> 00:58:47.995
or let's see whatever, a £1,000.
922
00:58:48.695 --> 00:58:51.195
So I take a UTXO which is slight slightly,
923
00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:55.960
which is similar to that amount which I want to spend in
924
00:58:56.260 --> 00:58:57.560
during a time for
925
00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:04.605
a similar purpose, and I open a lightning channel with it without creating a change. So there will be no toxic
926
00:59:05.005 --> 00:59:08.125
so called toxic change there at all. And then I don't
927
00:59:08.620 --> 00:59:10.240
I I keep this lightning wallet
928
00:59:11.180 --> 00:59:19.255
completely separate so it will be one pop key to that one UTXO, and I just spend it and I don't close the channel until I've spent all.
929
00:59:20.115 --> 00:59:21.015
And that would
930
00:59:21.474 --> 00:59:25.575
not create change again. And, also, if I didn't spend all the things
931
00:59:26.140 --> 00:59:33.725
for my groceries, it's something that I've been left behind that I can just use a soft service where it's, where I can get
932
00:59:34.445 --> 00:59:37.825
someone else's UTXO back for my lightning payment.
933
00:59:39.245 --> 00:59:40.860
But that that's a very good point.
934
00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:44.560
Rolling onto Lightning Network, the user doesn't
935
00:59:45.180 --> 00:59:51.825
care that much about how much money goes to the Lightning Network, and you can just get close to his intent and,
936
00:59:52.365 --> 01:00:03.350
hopefully, that's enough. Well, I mean, the goal I think for a lot of people in the space that a lot of developers I've talked to is is this idea that make every lightning, you know, channel open a coin joint,
937
01:00:03.810 --> 01:00:05.270
which could increase usage
938
01:00:05.650 --> 01:00:09.670
numbers. I mean, people have to open a coin, have to open a channel anyway.
939
01:00:10.194 --> 01:00:19.335
There's actually an incentive there, a nice incentive where it could be cheaper for them to open a channel into Lightning if they coin join at the same time and group with other people.
940
01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:23.340
And I I I think that kinda goes back to what I said previously,
941
01:00:24.600 --> 01:00:28.795
where I think the the first low hanging fruit goal should be reducing
942
01:00:29.095 --> 01:00:30.474
on chain fucking errors,
943
01:00:30.934 --> 01:00:34.635
because those are forever. So, I mean, we can go back and forth on the theoretical
944
01:00:35.335 --> 01:00:35.835
concerns
945
01:00:36.135 --> 01:00:39.769
of of Lightning privacy, which I think there are a lot of them. You know,
946
01:00:40.309 --> 01:00:42.009
New York City Bitcoiner and
947
01:00:42.390 --> 01:00:43.529
and friend Gleb,
948
01:00:44.925 --> 01:00:47.485
released, like, a paper a couple days ago on,
949
01:00:48.685 --> 01:00:50.705
I didn't wanna butcher his last name. It's like Numenko,
950
01:00:51.420 --> 01:01:05.954
released a paper on, like, lightning probing and all all these, you know, jamming channels and and trying to figure out channel balances and tracking lightning transactions, and pub keys are fixed right now. So there's a lot of there's there's a lot of concerns to me. Yeah.
951
01:01:06.255 --> 01:01:10.970
With the like are easy easy to prove. But you can use private channels and you can use parallel
952
01:01:11.270 --> 01:01:15.849
private channels as well, which, you know, makes it much more difficult. Right. But
953
01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:16.890
but but obviously,
954
01:01:17.430 --> 01:01:21.115
it's an important point. There. My my point is is my point is
955
01:01:22.135 --> 01:01:29.240
at least you remove that on chain issue. Right? You at least you remove that concern of that on chain footprint that's that's forever.
956
01:01:31.220 --> 01:01:38.494
Right? Like, that that that is that that is a major benefit there. But but I I just I just wanna pull this conversation back for a second, and I I posted
957
01:01:38.795 --> 01:01:39.295
a
958
01:01:39.914 --> 01:01:43.214
a but some people might think it was a,
959
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:51.380
a theoretical question, but I don't consider it a theoretical question. It is something that I have to discuss a lot,
960
01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:53.140
behind closed doors,
961
01:01:53.785 --> 01:01:55.405
and I think it really brings
962
01:01:55.785 --> 01:01:56.525
the concerns
963
01:01:57.385 --> 01:01:59.485
to light about, like, what we're up against.
964
01:02:00.940 --> 01:02:02.880
A lot of a lot of what people say
965
01:02:03.180 --> 01:02:07.520
is don't use KYC services, and and and we've talked on this on this show,
966
01:02:08.265 --> 01:02:10.245
a lot about the dangers of KYC
967
01:02:10.785 --> 01:02:12.245
and this information collection.
968
01:02:13.585 --> 01:02:17.810
And, I mean, I personally think, like, especially if you're not using, you know,
969
01:02:18.350 --> 01:02:19.890
you're not you're not using CoinJoin
970
01:02:20.190 --> 01:02:23.410
after you use a KYC service, you're, like, extra vulnerable.
971
01:02:24.670 --> 01:02:25.170
But
972
01:02:25.705 --> 01:02:27.485
let's forget about all that for a second.
973
01:02:27.865 --> 01:02:33.405
Let's pretend you're an activist or you're you're you're you're speaking to an activist in Malaysia,
974
01:02:34.190 --> 01:02:34.349
And
975
01:02:34.990 --> 01:02:36.930
oh, no. Fuck. I apologize.
976
01:02:38.190 --> 01:02:40.450
Myanmar. You're talking to an activist in Myanmar,
977
01:02:40.910 --> 01:02:44.224
Burma, and you have you have this military
978
01:02:44.525 --> 01:02:46.865
coup that happened. Right? They're cutting the Internet
979
01:02:47.325 --> 01:02:47.825
fucking
980
01:02:48.525 --> 01:02:52.305
they're cutting the Internet every night at curfew to make sure that
981
01:02:52.690 --> 01:02:56.950
their transgressions aren't getting released. They're doing active Internet surveillance on dissidents,
982
01:02:58.690 --> 01:03:00.710
and you're cut off from the banking system.
983
01:03:01.405 --> 01:03:08.145
This is happening today. This exists today. We have we have protesters and activists on the on the ground there
984
01:03:10.020 --> 01:03:12.200
that that aren't able to get money in.
985
01:03:14.900 --> 01:03:16.760
If Bitcoin seems like a natural
986
01:03:17.140 --> 01:03:18.920
ally in that type of fight.
987
01:03:19.345 --> 01:03:24.725
But if they open the most common thing to say would be have them run a BTC pay server.
988
01:03:25.345 --> 01:03:30.270
Right? And they're running a BTC pay server, and they're accepting donations to that BTC pay server,
989
01:03:30.650 --> 01:03:31.790
they're gonna have
990
01:03:32.890 --> 01:03:34.430
so many little
991
01:03:34.970 --> 01:03:35.470
UTXOs
992
01:03:36.505 --> 01:03:38.765
that they have no idea where they came from.
993
01:03:39.305 --> 01:03:43.645
And to, like, this like, to expect, like, an activist on the ground
994
01:03:44.350 --> 01:03:47.650
to be able to run use prudent coin control,
995
01:03:47.950 --> 01:03:49.170
that kind of situation,
996
01:03:50.350 --> 01:03:50.850
seems
997
01:03:51.955 --> 01:03:52.855
completely impossible.
998
01:03:53.955 --> 01:03:56.615
Like, am I am I wrong there? Like, is there is
999
01:03:57.155 --> 01:04:00.135
what is there a disconnect there? Like, what how what's
1000
01:04:00.890 --> 01:04:02.510
what's your perspective on that?
1001
01:04:06.010 --> 01:04:07.790
I do like that question on Twitter,
1002
01:04:08.090 --> 01:04:12.025
which you posted about, you have you have the situation and what you recommend.
1003
01:04:13.285 --> 01:04:14.265
And, I mean, the
1004
01:04:14.965 --> 01:04:15.705
the consensus
1005
01:04:16.005 --> 01:04:16.505
seems
1006
01:04:17.045 --> 01:04:22.340
seem to be, which I do agree as well, that I mean, if you can do use Lightning,
1007
01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:27.380
I mean, it could be even custodial, right, if you are not exposing if if it's not.
1008
01:04:28.434 --> 01:04:28.934
But,
1009
01:04:30.035 --> 01:04:31.895
I mean, it has an online require
1010
01:04:32.275 --> 01:04:32.775
requirement.
1011
01:04:34.434 --> 01:04:36.990
But you might as well do it since, like,
1012
01:04:37.530 --> 01:04:40.110
proposing a new address every time would
1013
01:04:40.730 --> 01:04:43.310
need that kind of online requirement anyway.
1014
01:04:44.675 --> 01:04:45.175
And
1015
01:04:45.475 --> 01:04:51.095
I I know where this goes. And also there's a question in the chat about pay names, which do,
1016
01:04:51.955 --> 01:04:57.780
kind of deal with this that you are providing a new address automatically on the communicating
1017
01:04:58.480 --> 01:04:59.460
on chain, basically.
1018
01:05:01.785 --> 01:05:02.685
The thing is
1019
01:05:03.785 --> 01:05:05.085
you have these outputs
1020
01:05:05.625 --> 01:05:07.725
which now are in your wallet.
1021
01:05:08.025 --> 01:05:16.370
And, I mean, putting aside the concerns with PayNim that, you know, how you recover recover the wallet and, you know, how much it is compatible with the implementations,
1022
01:05:16.830 --> 01:05:20.575
etcetera. I mean, this is this is, you know, getting getting very technical.
1023
01:05:20.875 --> 01:05:23.375
But when you when you're merging these transactions,
1024
01:05:23.835 --> 01:05:26.015
you are in the same place. Right?
1025
01:05:26.590 --> 01:05:29.570
If you if you receive transactions through a pay name and you
1026
01:05:30.270 --> 01:05:30.770
just
1027
01:05:31.150 --> 01:05:32.370
take and merge them,
1028
01:05:32.910 --> 01:05:34.210
how does it not connect
1029
01:05:35.425 --> 01:05:35.925
the
1030
01:05:36.305 --> 01:05:36.805
sources?
1031
01:05:37.905 --> 01:05:40.965
Right. Pay NIMs have the same issue. Pay NIM solves
1032
01:05:41.425 --> 01:05:43.045
Pay NIMs attempt to solve
1033
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:44.260
the
1034
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:46.160
PayNIM's alternatively
1035
01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:57.625
it's it's it's Bitcoin's version of stealth address, which Monero has implemented. I kinda wanna see Liquid implement stealth addresses. I it's weird that they haven't yet. I think that could be, like, a killer feature, but I digress.
1036
01:05:59.080 --> 01:06:00.620
The the the key aspect
1037
01:06:01.240 --> 01:06:01.740
is
1038
01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:05.980
you should and and this is something that that I hold
1039
01:06:06.335 --> 01:06:09.714
very dear as a as a as a goal that I think
1040
01:06:10.174 --> 01:06:12.115
I would love to see software developers
1041
01:06:12.894 --> 01:06:13.795
focus on,
1042
01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:15.580
besides Samurais,
1043
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:19.500
is this idea that you should be able to post a text string,
1044
01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:22.220
without any hosting requirements
1045
01:06:22.744 --> 01:06:26.365
that allows people to pay you in a relatively private way on Bitcoin.
1046
01:06:26.904 --> 01:06:40.025
And that's what PayNim's attempts to solve is is is this idea that, like, an activist who is who has, you know, a authoritarian government that's actively trying to destroy their way of life is gonna be able to run a 247
1047
01:06:40.484 --> 01:06:40.984
BTC
1048
01:06:41.285 --> 01:06:41.944
pay server
1049
01:06:42.244 --> 01:06:45.545
and manage, you know, liquidity constraints on lightning
1050
01:06:46.240 --> 01:06:47.920
is fucking out of out of
1051
01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:52.420
you know, never gonna happen. Like, that is just not a realistic expectation.
1052
01:06:52.799 --> 01:07:00.985
Can they post on their social media? Can they post a single texturing? In this case, you know, the a a Paynam name or a payment code,
1053
01:07:01.300 --> 01:07:04.200
which is really the PayNIM name links to a payment code.
1054
01:07:04.820 --> 01:07:06.680
Yes. Like, that seems very reasonable
1055
01:07:07.060 --> 01:07:07.720
to me.
1056
01:07:08.500 --> 01:07:10.915
The main negative of of PayNim
1057
01:07:11.535 --> 01:07:19.650
is that they have this on chain it's on chain. And and so right now, you have this notification transaction with current fees. I mean, you're talking $25,
1058
01:07:20.190 --> 01:07:20.690
$30,
1059
01:07:21.950 --> 01:07:26.130
just to activate that process. Right? We just saw HRF just added Pay NIMs.
1060
01:07:27.175 --> 01:07:39.339
If you wanna donate to HRF, you have to pay this this first you have to pay this notification transaction, which is is gonna get more and more expensive as Bitcoin pumps and as fees pump. And at the top of that, what you mentioned, Open Arms,
1061
01:07:39.880 --> 01:07:42.940
you don't solve the after issue.
1062
01:07:43.455 --> 01:07:48.195
Right? You don't solve the issue that the that the activist is sitting on a ton of a ton of UTXOs
1063
01:07:51.410 --> 01:07:57.990
that that, you know, they have to practice prudent coin control or go into CoinJoin at that point. Right? Right. 1 by 1.
1064
01:07:58.375 --> 01:08:02.075
1 by 1. And and anything that's underneath the lowest CoinJoin,
1065
01:08:03.335 --> 01:08:09.490
amount, they wouldn't be able to unless at at join market, they could. Right? Exactly. No such thing to join market. Right. Yep.
1066
01:08:10.270 --> 01:08:12.050
I mean, as 16102
1067
01:08:12.350 --> 01:08:18.625
mentions, and also as I wanted to tell the next thing is that you would need to have some kind of way to,
1068
01:08:19.165 --> 01:08:26.930
communicate your donation place. Let it be a website or an email or somewhere where people can ping you. I mean, you can just
1069
01:08:27.870 --> 01:08:28.370
publish
1070
01:08:29.655 --> 01:08:32.875
Bitcoin addresses, you know. It is what Belcher does.
1071
01:08:33.255 --> 01:08:42.130
Yeah. Exactly. It's so simple. You just need to have a website which on on a click maybe with some, you know, spam protection or like, you know,
1072
01:08:43.810 --> 01:08:48.415
you need to solve a capture or something to to acquire it. You just dump
1073
01:08:49.035 --> 01:08:51.695
thousands of addresses from your wallet, and
1074
01:08:52.475 --> 01:08:54.575
you put it in a in a rolling basis.
1075
01:08:55.490 --> 01:08:57.110
But then you're still running a 247
1076
01:08:57.490 --> 01:08:58.950
server to serve them up.
1077
01:08:59.570 --> 01:09:02.870
Yeah. But the the the service requirement is what is, like,
1078
01:09:03.345 --> 01:09:08.245
you know, serving a text based web page. That's I mean, you must be able to do that.
1079
01:09:09.105 --> 01:09:18.880
Or that could be a Telegram bot, you know, or it could be I mean, it depends what kind of communication you are using. Right? But you see that you see see the significant advantage of something like a stealth address. Right?
1080
01:09:19.955 --> 01:09:35.600
Yeah. That this is fixed. Yes. Yes. You can post you can send out a single tweet. It just has your stealth address on it, and every person who pays you automatically gets a new derived address. It's certainly much better than using just a just a fixed address because that's the other alternative.
1081
01:09:38.105 --> 01:09:44.365
You know, there is there is not even a question. You cannot stop merging everything which comes to the same address,
1082
01:09:44.850 --> 01:09:46.389
obviously. But then,
1083
01:09:49.969 --> 01:09:54.070
yeah, I mean, that's that that is not a good solution, but that is that was
1084
01:09:54.525 --> 01:09:55.345
so far the
1085
01:09:56.045 --> 01:10:01.425
the way people did it. Right? I mean, custodial lightning, you mentioned that, is fucking great,
1086
01:10:01.890 --> 01:10:10.870
in terms of privacy. I mean, it's not great for trust. It's custodial privacy is what it is. I mean, you're you're you're trusting whatever the custodian is with your privacy instead,
1087
01:10:11.545 --> 01:10:14.285
and also regulators are just gonna crush that shit.
1088
01:10:14.745 --> 01:10:17.805
But it is an it is an interesting point that you made because
1089
01:10:18.350 --> 01:10:22.530
I think Bitcoin's privacy shortcomings were kinda hidden in the early days
1090
01:10:22.830 --> 01:10:28.275
because we had so many custodial services. And then we made this push to self custody, which is great,
1091
01:10:28.655 --> 01:10:32.755
but it comes with this privacy trade off. Right? Like, if you use the custodial service,
1092
01:10:33.935 --> 01:10:37.480
there's no the on chain footprint issue is solved ish ish.
1093
01:10:40.820 --> 01:10:41.320
Yeah.
1094
01:10:42.020 --> 01:10:44.679
No Power, what's your opinion here? Donations, activists,
1095
01:10:45.219 --> 01:10:45.780
you know, with
1096
01:10:47.114 --> 01:10:51.855
Did you agree with me that this should be, like, this should be, like, the most obvious Bitcoin use case?
1097
01:10:55.130 --> 01:10:59.710
I agree that there is a problem that stat addresses
1098
01:11:01.290 --> 01:11:01.790
address,
1099
01:11:03.345 --> 01:11:10.870
and actually 2 problems. Right? One is how do you accept donations privately? And as OpenOM said, there
1100
01:11:11.190 --> 01:11:14.890
might be other ways like how Chris Butcher does it.
1101
01:11:15.590 --> 01:11:17.450
But the other other big
1102
01:11:19.965 --> 01:11:25.425
big big benefit of of stat addresses is is the user experience. Right? Like,
1103
01:11:25.750 --> 01:11:26.250
you
1104
01:11:26.790 --> 01:11:32.489
you basically save 1 round trip from with with another person,
1105
01:11:33.025 --> 01:11:37.285
because they don't have to give you your address because you already know
1106
01:11:38.545 --> 01:11:39.285
how to
1107
01:11:39.905 --> 01:11:41.525
communicate value to them.
1108
01:11:42.020 --> 01:11:42.520
So,
1109
01:11:44.100 --> 01:11:44.600
yes,
1110
01:11:46.500 --> 01:11:47.720
I'm not sure
1111
01:11:48.180 --> 01:11:48.680
what
1112
01:11:49.485 --> 01:11:51.505
what way it it will
1113
01:11:52.685 --> 01:11:54.045
it will end up being
1114
01:11:55.885 --> 01:12:02.570
I mean, I I hope this will be a standard at one point in the future. I'm just not sure what
1115
01:12:03.110 --> 01:12:03.930
what standard
1116
01:12:04.390 --> 01:12:12.715
we'll hear be. And and, actually, I would like to even go further and bring pay to endpoint in in into the conversation because,
1117
01:12:13.255 --> 01:12:14.555
you know, pay join,
1118
01:12:15.095 --> 01:12:18.860
in my mind at least is just one application of pay to endpoint.
1119
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:23.340
Because what pay to endpoint really means is that you have
1120
01:12:24.545 --> 01:12:25.844
a a peer to peer
1121
01:12:26.385 --> 01:12:26.625
channel
1122
01:12:27.824 --> 01:12:28.324
communication
1123
01:12:28.625 --> 01:12:31.445
channel with another person. So
1124
01:12:32.380 --> 01:12:33.119
I would
1125
01:12:33.500 --> 01:12:34.139
I mean, just
1126
01:12:35.260 --> 01:12:37.280
if if I would have to write
1127
01:12:37.739 --> 01:12:38.239
something
1128
01:12:38.540 --> 01:12:41.760
today regarding this, then what I would do is
1129
01:12:42.205 --> 01:12:43.645
I would I would create
1130
01:12:45.245 --> 01:12:49.425
I I would just just let users to pass around Tor addresses
1131
01:12:49.805 --> 01:12:50.305
and
1132
01:12:51.140 --> 01:12:53.080
and and then communicate there. And
1133
01:12:53.940 --> 01:12:57.960
and the problem with that, of course, that what if the other person is not online?
1134
01:12:59.345 --> 01:12:59.845
And
1135
01:13:01.105 --> 01:13:01.605
my
1136
01:13:02.305 --> 01:13:11.120
answer to that solution is that answer to that problem is that I don't think we have to address that problem because
1137
01:13:11.660 --> 01:13:13.280
everyone's gonna be online.
1138
01:13:14.540 --> 01:13:19.685
I I'm not sure. Maybe it takes 5 years, maybe 10 years, maybe 50 years. But
1139
01:13:20.145 --> 01:13:23.125
at one point in the future, in our lifetime,
1140
01:13:23.960 --> 01:13:32.540
everyone's going to be always online. So that should not be a a problem, I think. Do do you not see, like, in a hostile environment?
1141
01:13:33.125 --> 01:13:35.864
Page 1 has the same issue? Like, in a hostile environment,
1142
01:13:37.285 --> 01:13:40.824
to to expect to expect someone to run a server 247
1143
01:13:41.205 --> 01:13:42.425
in a private way,
1144
01:13:43.929 --> 01:13:47.230
it's like so it's a way it's a way greater ask
1145
01:13:47.850 --> 01:13:52.590
to expect them to be able to do that without completely doxing themselves. And we already see it happening
1146
01:13:53.034 --> 01:13:56.974
where if you try and use any kind of professional server unless you're using, like,
1147
01:13:57.755 --> 01:14:00.735
not all, like, fucking keto miners, dope ass, fucking,
1148
01:14:01.660 --> 01:14:07.200
you know, pay Bitcoin with no KYC whatsoever. We see creeping KYC happening on all of these server providers.
1149
01:14:08.655 --> 01:14:09.555
Oh, oh, sorry.
1150
01:14:09.935 --> 01:14:21.380
Sorry. I wasn't clear. So what what I wanted to say is that I I think we are gonna be online not with servers, but with our our laptops and our mobile phones, they gonna
1151
01:14:22.160 --> 01:14:27.860
they gonna be online all the time, and and we won't have this problem of having to set up a server.
1152
01:14:29.595 --> 01:14:33.775
Right. I mean, Tor helps in that regard. Right? Because Tor, you can actually,
1153
01:14:34.155 --> 01:14:38.015
in a relatively private way, host some kind of page or something
1154
01:14:41.490 --> 01:14:45.910
directly from your device without a server. I just wanted to show real quick on the screen,
1155
01:14:46.505 --> 01:14:47.645
this is from NetBlocks,
1156
01:14:48.425 --> 01:14:50.685
which tracks Internet freedom around the world.
1157
01:14:51.304 --> 01:14:53.804
And this is this is the Myanmar government
1158
01:14:54.500 --> 01:14:56.600
turning off Internet every night.
1159
01:14:56.980 --> 01:15:00.120
They turn off the Internet every fucking night for the last
1160
01:15:01.460 --> 01:15:03.055
18 days they've been doing it.
1161
01:15:04.335 --> 01:15:08.195
Like, this is this is not a this is not a theoretical thing,
1162
01:15:09.375 --> 01:15:11.635
and it's gonna become more and more common
1163
01:15:11.960 --> 01:15:16.620
that that when there's protest movements, the Internet's gonna get cut. Do we agree on this?
1164
01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:19.420
Of course.
1165
01:15:21.405 --> 01:15:22.625
Yes. I mean, in,
1166
01:15:23.005 --> 01:15:25.025
you know, the more or less connected
1167
01:15:25.325 --> 01:15:25.825
society
1168
01:15:26.365 --> 01:15:36.000
to start it, the bigger problem it is, of course. I mean, you will have, like, satellite, machinist works, ray ham radios, etcetera. But, yeah, of course, it is a problem.
1169
01:15:36.860 --> 01:15:38.720
You need to be able to to
1170
01:15:39.565 --> 01:15:40.065
publish,
1171
01:15:41.485 --> 01:15:44.145
like, you know, again, this is now
1172
01:15:44.525 --> 01:15:45.985
getting into a difficult
1173
01:15:46.330 --> 01:15:52.350
UX question, but again PGP signatures come come into mind here that if you can verify
1174
01:15:53.130 --> 01:15:54.030
if you publish,
1175
01:15:54.330 --> 01:15:54.989
you know,
1176
01:15:55.925 --> 01:15:57.465
across many different,
1177
01:15:58.725 --> 01:16:02.105
media or, like, social networks or anything, signed
1178
01:16:02.725 --> 01:16:09.610
messages with Bitcoin addresses that, you know, this is the donation address of my of of that, kind of
1179
01:16:12.469 --> 01:16:14.329
organization leading donations.
1180
01:16:14.715 --> 01:16:21.855
And then you can you can verify it, and you can see also if it was used or not. I mean, it's not ideal because, you know, you would,
1181
01:16:22.540 --> 01:16:34.395
yes, in adversity, you would just be able to collect all of these addresses and obviously It doesn't give you any real privacy benefit over just posting a static fixed address. I mean, it's not obvious on chain at least. The attacker would have to actively
1182
01:16:34.775 --> 01:16:35.755
pull them. Right?
1183
01:16:36.215 --> 01:16:49.020
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the only benefit. Yeah. I mean, you know, it to be honest, I mean, a single address does come into play here as well. But, yeah, a status would be advantageous, but also what what what is the
1184
01:16:50.305 --> 01:16:56.165
so how many times if when you donate someone, do you are you intending to donate monthly or like weekly?
1185
01:16:56.550 --> 01:16:59.610
You you usually just send a one off transaction. Right? So,
1186
01:17:00.390 --> 01:17:06.250
I mean, I know that there is a proposal now improving b 47 that there which would require no
1187
01:17:07.495 --> 01:17:08.635
notification transaction,
1188
01:17:08.935 --> 01:17:10.475
but then it would need
1189
01:17:11.095 --> 01:17:12.795
this tour channel, which tour
1190
01:17:13.655 --> 01:17:21.619
Nupurra was mentioning, which would need to communicate with the with the senders. So either online or you need to communicate on chain only. Well, you could have, like, a coordinator
1191
01:17:22.135 --> 01:17:28.075
just like we do for the chamion coin joints. You could have, like, a blinded coordinator that's that's serving up,
1192
01:17:28.935 --> 01:17:31.195
instead of the notification transaction. Right?
1193
01:17:35.580 --> 01:17:41.040
But let's Do you see what I'm saying? Like, the activist doesn't necessarily need to be online in that scenario.
1194
01:17:42.125 --> 01:17:46.225
They could just be as long as regulators are fine, and it seems like
1195
01:17:46.845 --> 01:17:48.385
they they're they it's
1196
01:17:49.540 --> 01:17:50.040
everyone's
1197
01:17:50.580 --> 01:17:52.520
walking a very tight rope here,
1198
01:17:53.219 --> 01:17:56.200
but it seems like regulators are fine with these blinded coordinators.
1199
01:17:57.525 --> 01:17:59.625
As long as they're fine with blinded coordinators,
1200
01:18:00.005 --> 01:18:02.344
then presumably we could have a blinded
1201
01:18:02.645 --> 01:18:03.945
bip 47 coordinator.
1202
01:18:05.690 --> 01:18:15.305
Well, I mean, you know, I'm no expert on this, but it's probably things which, like, PLCs come into to mind as well that, you know, you might just use use an Oracle
1203
01:18:15.765 --> 01:18:19.545
tweaking or sorting your address without it knowing it at all.
1204
01:18:20.405 --> 01:18:25.139
But, you know, this is not available at the moment, or I wouldn't know how to set it up for sure.
1205
01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:28.420
Okay.
1206
01:18:29.235 --> 01:18:35.175
This has been great so far. I wanna keep the conversation moving. I have a bunch of topics I wanna hit on the scratch pad.
1207
01:18:36.594 --> 01:18:37.655
CoinJoin flagging.
1208
01:18:38.360 --> 01:18:40.300
We're seeing this happen more and more.
1209
01:18:41.960 --> 01:18:43.179
Block BlockFind
1210
01:18:43.480 --> 01:18:45.980
now is, like, leading the way in, like, the most draconian,
1211
01:18:46.679 --> 01:18:47.179
screenshots.
1212
01:18:49.145 --> 01:18:49.885
I mean,
1213
01:18:51.225 --> 01:18:58.110
what is it? The Block 5 prohibited transaction screenshot that is circulating? I'll put it on the I'll put it on the screen in a second.
1214
01:18:59.290 --> 01:19:02.430
This idea that that we have these regulated companies,
1215
01:19:04.085 --> 01:19:06.265
that are flagging CoinJoin usage
1216
01:19:06.885 --> 01:19:08.665
both on deposits and withdrawals.
1217
01:19:09.685 --> 01:19:12.825
Some are doing it only in deposits, some are only doing it on withdrawals.
1218
01:19:14.890 --> 01:19:18.270
CoinJoin is obvious on chain. It's very obvious on chain,
1219
01:19:18.810 --> 01:19:19.630
by design.
1220
01:19:20.650 --> 01:19:21.150
What
1221
01:19:22.075 --> 01:19:30.415
where what is your guys' perspective here? Should we expect like, I pretty much now I'm operating under the expectation that I just expect every single regulated entity
1222
01:19:31.900 --> 01:19:32.639
to just
1223
01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:34.159
not accept them.
1224
01:19:35.179 --> 01:19:39.679
And and and that's coming from a person who's every stat I hold has CoinJoin history. So
1225
01:19:41.695 --> 01:19:42.675
it's not FUD.
1226
01:19:44.015 --> 01:19:49.075
Yeah. So, I mean, it's same here. I think, you know, at currently, just to be clear, this is
1227
01:19:49.455 --> 01:19:49.955
always,
1228
01:19:50.800 --> 01:19:55.540
to my knowledge, an overreach from the from the side of the provider. There is no
1229
01:19:56.400 --> 01:19:57.300
legal requirement
1230
01:19:57.760 --> 01:19:59.860
to flag coin joints because
1231
01:20:00.215 --> 01:20:04.475
they are only missing the history. They're not I mean, at most
1232
01:20:04.855 --> 01:20:06.235
most of the cases,
1233
01:20:08.970 --> 01:20:13.230
they don't have it's, like, not taint in the classical
1234
01:20:14.810 --> 01:20:17.470
sense that, you know, you have been paying
1235
01:20:17.915 --> 01:20:26.469
a darknet market before and the transactions are connected. But it's just the fact that you wanted to be private, And there is no requirement
1236
01:20:26.929 --> 01:20:33.909
to not accept these kind of transactions. Because as I've said in the beginning, you know, if we wouldn't do this, then we are coming to
1237
01:20:34.545 --> 01:20:48.389
such a state of surveillance which have ever been seen before, and we have certainly wouldn't want to be the part of that. So these services, I think, you know, just avoid them. There is no reason to use any of these.
1238
01:20:50.530 --> 01:20:52.230
No, Paul. What's your opinion here?
1239
01:20:54.614 --> 01:20:58.315
I have many. Not even sure which ones to start with.
1240
01:20:59.255 --> 01:21:00.395
Oh, we have time.
1241
01:21:01.309 --> 01:21:03.650
If if if we want to boil down
1242
01:21:04.670 --> 01:21:08.130
the the whole issue to to one question, then
1243
01:21:08.510 --> 01:21:10.050
this is the question is,
1244
01:21:10.735 --> 01:21:13.155
should pry seeking privacy
1245
01:21:13.534 --> 01:21:14.275
be considered
1246
01:21:14.975 --> 01:21:15.475
suspicious?
1247
01:21:16.735 --> 01:21:17.235
And,
1248
01:21:18.020 --> 01:21:18.679
well, unfortunately,
1249
01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:20.119
the answer
1250
01:21:20.739 --> 01:21:24.280
for many of these services is that yes.
1251
01:21:27.295 --> 01:21:27.795
However
1252
01:21:30.094 --> 01:21:32.755
or or maybe not not however, but
1253
01:21:34.710 --> 01:21:38.170
as far as I can see, it there is
1254
01:21:38.790 --> 01:21:39.690
no solution
1255
01:21:41.085 --> 01:21:44.385
to this no technical solution to this,
1256
01:21:44.925 --> 01:21:45.425
but
1257
01:21:46.285 --> 01:21:47.905
only social solutions.
1258
01:21:49.005 --> 01:21:49.505
Because
1259
01:21:50.230 --> 01:21:51.050
if you
1260
01:21:52.469 --> 01:21:54.010
if you think about it,
1261
01:21:55.590 --> 01:21:59.130
let's use Monero. Right? That's that's the first answer.
1262
01:21:59.825 --> 01:22:00.325
Well,
1263
01:22:01.505 --> 01:22:06.245
if you are using Monero, then you are privacy seeking, so you should not
1264
01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:10.620
be in that service. So they decide to not even implement it.
1265
01:22:12.200 --> 01:22:16.140
That's a problem. So maybe I'll advertise Monero in a way that
1266
01:22:16.585 --> 01:22:17.405
it's for
1267
01:22:20.264 --> 01:22:24.125
never mind. Okay. So so what test do we have here? We we have
1268
01:22:24.585 --> 01:22:26.045
coin joints, which
1269
01:22:26.550 --> 01:22:29.770
which is which which are obvious on chain and
1270
01:22:30.230 --> 01:22:32.010
that nothing's gonna fix that.
1271
01:22:32.470 --> 01:22:33.210
We have
1272
01:22:34.195 --> 01:22:42.295
pay join and coin swap. Those are different things. Actually, pay join is a kind of coin join, but but in the sense,
1273
01:22:42.820 --> 01:22:45.400
they are the same things because
1274
01:22:46.580 --> 01:22:49.160
what page join does is it
1275
01:22:49.620 --> 01:22:51.080
joins your history
1276
01:22:52.085 --> 01:22:54.105
in the eyes of blockchain analysis
1277
01:22:55.284 --> 01:22:57.625
with another person. And what
1278
01:22:58.485 --> 01:22:59.864
coin swaps do
1279
01:23:00.324 --> 01:23:00.824
is
1280
01:23:01.400 --> 01:23:04.219
it swaps your history with another person.
1281
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:05.500
So,
1282
01:23:07.159 --> 01:23:09.260
well, it's not obvious
1283
01:23:10.395 --> 01:23:13.534
that that coin swap or page only happened.
1284
01:23:15.275 --> 01:23:18.974
But the problem is that if you are swapping with the wrong person, that's
1285
01:23:19.530 --> 01:23:20.830
that's again a problem.
1286
01:23:22.330 --> 01:23:23.550
So so I don't
1287
01:23:24.010 --> 01:23:27.630
oh, and there is lightning network. Actually, the the electrum
1288
01:23:28.315 --> 01:23:30.015
Electrum tool developer,
1289
01:23:31.195 --> 01:23:34.415
said in a conference a couple of years ago that,
1290
01:23:34.795 --> 01:23:41.420
you know, lightning network shouldn't even be called lightning network. It should be called the dark network because
1291
01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:42.360
it's just,
1292
01:23:44.185 --> 01:23:47.645
it just it's basically a social solution to
1293
01:23:48.265 --> 01:23:49.885
to the is privacy
1294
01:23:50.345 --> 01:23:51.165
should be
1295
01:23:51.570 --> 01:23:52.630
should be suspicious
1296
01:23:53.090 --> 01:23:57.430
that you can say, well, I'm transacting with Lightning because I want to
1297
01:23:57.810 --> 01:24:00.790
I want want it cheap, and I want it fast.
1298
01:24:01.365 --> 01:24:03.625
But on the other hand, I mean, there
1299
01:24:04.165 --> 01:24:08.665
were lightning network know your customer and and and and and similar,
1300
01:24:09.800 --> 01:24:11.500
things are already going up.
1301
01:24:11.960 --> 01:24:14.460
I mean, I think I think we're gonna see
1302
01:24:15.800 --> 01:24:19.855
I'm not trying to, like, it's it's so it's super frustrating. I,
1303
01:24:20.475 --> 01:24:24.575
you know, I do it to myself. I'm a little bit of masochist. I like talking about the hard topics,
1304
01:24:25.480 --> 01:24:27.260
so I tend to have, you know,
1305
01:24:27.639 --> 01:24:30.940
I I tend to dive right into every single drama topic,
1306
01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:37.415
and, you know, so I get chirped out all the time. But I do expect, you know, I think we're gonna watch lightning.
1307
01:24:37.875 --> 01:24:56.045
We're gonna watch regulated companies try and capture the fuck out of lightning, and the governments that they report to try and capture the fuck out of lightning. Like, I'm talking about, you know, pub keys that are white listed versus pub keys that are black listed, like big documents, you know, databases of of who's using what, channel capacities, all this different stuff.
1308
01:24:57.225 --> 01:25:00.605
But I but I do agree that, you know, Lightning has
1309
01:25:02.160 --> 01:25:04.500
significant significant privacy improvements,
1310
01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:12.355
that that could be taken advantage of there. I do think 2 things here that I think I'm kind of curious on your opinion of
1311
01:25:12.735 --> 01:25:14.115
from from both of you is,
1312
01:25:16.550 --> 01:25:19.610
the the the first thing is I think, ultimately,
1313
01:25:20.070 --> 01:25:20.809
my expectation
1314
01:25:21.190 --> 01:25:24.250
is that regulated entities are gonna basically
1315
01:25:26.735 --> 01:25:28.755
at at least discourage self custody,
1316
01:25:30.255 --> 01:25:32.195
across the board, if not completely
1317
01:25:32.655 --> 01:25:37.410
not allow it. Right? And we already see that happening with services like Robinhood or PayPal
1318
01:25:37.790 --> 01:25:38.929
where you can't withdraw.
1319
01:25:39.790 --> 01:25:44.370
They might allow you deposit, but they won't let you withdraw Bitcoin and hold it yourself.
1320
01:25:44.945 --> 01:25:48.645
I think that's the natural end goal if we have any kind of Bitcoin,
1321
01:25:49.585 --> 01:25:52.325
as as as it becomes easier to use Bitcoin privately,
1322
01:25:53.190 --> 01:26:07.724
the natural end goal is gonna be that they're just gonna try and cut it off, and they're just gonna try and make it so regulated entities only let you have numbers on the screen and pay approved people or pay approved merchants, yada yada yada. The second I almost I feel like we should reframe this whole discussion.
1323
01:26:08.700 --> 01:26:12.000
I don't think the fact that CoinJoin is obvious on chain is
1324
01:26:12.460 --> 01:26:14.000
this massive negative.
1325
01:26:15.585 --> 01:26:19.284
I mean, the standard for protecting speech is encryption.
1326
01:26:20.385 --> 01:26:25.520
If you if if you use encryption, if I send Open Arms an encrypted message,
1327
01:26:25.900 --> 01:26:26.560
it is
1328
01:26:27.020 --> 01:26:37.905
absolutely obvious to anyone watching that that message that we're using encryption. They don't know what the contents of of of the message are, but they absolutely know that we're using encryption.
1329
01:26:38.365 --> 01:26:42.545
How is that any different than them absolutely knowing we're using CoinJoin,
1330
01:26:43.090 --> 01:26:49.750
but, you know, if the implementation works well, they they they can't tell this, you know, the history of the funds? How is that any fucking different?
1331
01:26:52.385 --> 01:26:57.364
That that's exactly the same. Right? It's the question of should seeking privacy be
1332
01:26:57.665 --> 01:26:59.445
considered suspicious, and
1333
01:27:00.260 --> 01:27:05.800
and and the best way would be that if seeking privacy would be the default, then
1334
01:27:06.420 --> 01:27:07.480
no one could be
1335
01:27:07.905 --> 01:27:10.005
able to make this argument. Right?
1336
01:27:12.465 --> 01:27:14.805
Open arms. What's your perspective here?
1337
01:27:15.270 --> 01:27:17.030
Well, I I I agree that,
1338
01:27:17.670 --> 01:27:19.449
you know, lightning paying with lightning
1339
01:27:19.830 --> 01:27:20.489
does have
1340
01:27:21.830 --> 01:27:22.570
much better
1341
01:27:24.665 --> 01:27:25.965
values here because
1342
01:27:26.585 --> 01:27:29.165
you just don't see there is no way to see
1343
01:27:29.625 --> 01:27:33.840
where the sets are coming from. So the sets on lightning are much more fungible.
1344
01:27:34.940 --> 01:27:37.760
And this is because you would need active
1345
01:27:38.885 --> 01:27:40.025
real time surveillance
1346
01:27:42.085 --> 01:27:49.710
to to prove all the public channels and even then you wouldn't be able to see maybe you would you could estimate where,
1347
01:27:50.490 --> 01:27:53.870
you know, which was the first public channel where the
1348
01:27:55.195 --> 01:28:00.255
payment is coming from, but this adoption increases as the number of payments increases as we introduce,
1349
01:28:00.635 --> 01:28:01.775
you know, some kind of,
1350
01:28:02.555 --> 01:28:03.775
things which do
1351
01:28:04.700 --> 01:28:07.500
fail payments randomly, for example, or, like, you know, rebel
1352
01:28:08.060 --> 01:28:10.400
ultimate rebalances and things. They do
1353
01:28:11.195 --> 01:28:13.535
change the picture so often and,
1354
01:28:15.515 --> 01:28:16.015
unpredictably
1355
01:28:16.475 --> 01:28:21.800
that this is, you know, this is not really realistic. It's just very good to, know, have these articles,
1356
01:28:25.860 --> 01:28:26.360
researching
1357
01:28:26.740 --> 01:28:29.264
it and, you know, I love to read them but also
1358
01:28:29.565 --> 01:28:30.784
it it is to
1359
01:28:31.165 --> 01:28:39.880
see the pain points and, you know, be able to to work more on it. So and lightning is is is I see it as a solution at least to spend.
1360
01:28:41.060 --> 01:28:41.800
But then
1361
01:28:42.980 --> 01:28:47.865
the same thing applies that if you don't apply if you don't allow coin joint payments
1362
01:28:48.245 --> 01:28:50.345
or coin joint funds to be deposited,
1363
01:28:50.965 --> 01:28:51.465
then
1364
01:28:53.060 --> 01:28:53.800
you wouldn't
1365
01:28:55.060 --> 01:29:00.280
allow lightning deposits either. And if you can see it, this, for example, with the
1366
01:29:00.825 --> 01:29:05.325
with bottle pay is like, you know, came to the UK market straight on,
1367
01:29:06.185 --> 01:29:09.070
and in a couple of days they started to block coin joints
1368
01:29:09.389 --> 01:29:12.050
because they probably, you know, did it
1369
01:29:12.429 --> 01:29:15.010
from I mean, yeah, I I I didn't go into that why,
1370
01:29:15.389 --> 01:29:16.849
but it's a bad thing.
1371
01:29:17.345 --> 01:29:25.960
And they allow lightning trans lightning deposits, but it's very limited. Like, you can like, a couple of pounds you can deposit only. Right? So
1372
01:29:26.260 --> 01:29:34.520
obviously it's it's it's the same thing. If there is even there there is a thing which could be private, or let's see that you know why would anyone
1373
01:29:35.495 --> 01:29:37.195
allow Monero deposits
1374
01:29:37.495 --> 01:29:42.155
if they don't allow coin joint payments and lightning deposits either.
1375
01:29:42.550 --> 01:29:48.490
So it's the same problem. We need to step step up and Can I just iron, steel man that for a second?
1376
01:29:49.030 --> 01:29:49.530
Okay.
1377
01:29:50.985 --> 01:29:57.565
Well, first of all, disclosure, I am a Pfizer of, bottle pay and have a small equity position as a result in that.
1378
01:29:58.025 --> 01:30:02.829
Okay. That is not a there's the that agreement has no endorsement,
1379
01:30:03.849 --> 01:30:09.645
or paid promotion involved in it. My goal is to try and make that product as possible, so just I want that to be aware.
1380
01:30:11.625 --> 01:30:15.945
You know, obviously, I disagree with with their idea to to to Blockcoin join,
1381
01:30:16.665 --> 01:30:17.165
deposits.
1382
01:30:17.730 --> 01:30:22.450
I I literally cannot use the service besides the fact that it's UK only, but I could not use the service,
1383
01:30:23.090 --> 01:30:24.630
to deposit funds into,
1384
01:30:25.090 --> 01:30:26.950
because of of my CoinJoin history.
1385
01:30:27.735 --> 01:30:33.355
So I wanna steal, man, your your thing about so I say this all the time too. I agree. The the
1386
01:30:34.295 --> 01:30:38.120
the ultimate the ultimate end goal is, like, if if,
1387
01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:42.700
if a service is gonna discriminate against something that is privacy
1388
01:30:43.755 --> 01:30:44.895
preserving deposit,
1389
01:30:45.675 --> 01:30:47.375
they're gonna do it across the board.
1390
01:30:48.635 --> 01:30:49.375
A Monero
1391
01:30:49.915 --> 01:30:52.895
promoter would tell you though, and they've told me many times,
1392
01:30:54.460 --> 01:31:00.960
and it's actually a very valid point, I think, and I'm curious on your opinion, is Kraken's a perfect example. Kraken
1393
01:31:01.885 --> 01:31:04.625
has accepted Monero deposits for years now.
1394
01:31:05.965 --> 01:31:10.545
Also, at the same time, they have active contracts with chain surveillance firms,
1395
01:31:11.830 --> 01:31:13.610
where they are discriminating
1396
01:31:13.910 --> 01:31:14.410
against,
1397
01:31:15.590 --> 01:31:20.695
user deposits. Right? They're, like, checking Bitcoin history, but at the same time accepting Monero deposits.
1398
01:31:21.415 --> 01:31:29.600
So is there is that true? Are we correct in that regard? Or is it just, like, a a low time preference thing, like, it'll happen eventually, it just hasn't happened yet?
1399
01:31:31.040 --> 01:31:32.720
Well, look. Bitfinex does,
1400
01:31:33.840 --> 01:31:34.340
allow,
1401
01:31:35.120 --> 01:31:37.220
KYC free lightning deposits
1402
01:31:37.600 --> 01:31:38.820
to no limit,
1403
01:31:39.145 --> 01:31:48.925
and you can withdraw Bitcoin as well if you pay the fee. You can even withdraw liquid or you can do the other ways around to deposit liquid or lightning and withdraw a light
1404
01:31:50.090 --> 01:31:54.750
or liquid. Yeah. So any combination. Right? You don't even need to KYC for it.
1405
01:31:55.690 --> 01:31:58.750
But that doesn't prove the point that if you want to
1406
01:32:00.635 --> 01:32:04.655
if you are allowed and we don't step up to stop
1407
01:32:05.195 --> 01:32:07.935
you know, if we allow people or governments
1408
01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:10.860
to strip
1409
01:32:12.119 --> 01:32:16.780
us from our rights to be private, then we are in the Orwell 1984.
1410
01:32:17.515 --> 01:32:19.135
And, you know, that is
1411
01:32:19.755 --> 01:32:23.455
not acceptable, and that's not because of the if the technology is flawed,
1412
01:32:24.830 --> 01:32:27.730
but because that's what the regulators
1413
01:32:28.270 --> 01:32:29.250
put to us.
1414
01:32:32.815 --> 01:32:34.755
You know, ultimately, there is
1415
01:32:35.135 --> 01:32:36.675
maybe only one
1416
01:32:37.055 --> 01:32:37.875
one solution
1417
01:32:38.655 --> 01:32:40.835
that I can see is that
1418
01:32:41.410 --> 01:32:46.630
we build better sheet, we build build better software, and we outcompete them. And
1419
01:32:47.250 --> 01:32:47.750
if
1420
01:32:48.130 --> 01:32:52.845
if we are right if we are right about that, users are going to
1421
01:32:53.705 --> 01:32:59.005
choose our solutions because we are better than they are going to choose our solutions. And
1422
01:32:59.610 --> 01:33:00.350
and, well,
1423
01:33:01.369 --> 01:33:03.469
privacy becomes the norm and
1424
01:33:04.250 --> 01:33:06.030
not a not a crime.
1425
01:33:07.735 --> 01:33:09.995
Yeah. I mean, need to continue to
1426
01:33:10.455 --> 01:33:14.155
maximize the ability to do peers to peers transactions freely,
1427
01:33:15.070 --> 01:33:16.210
Freely as in freedom.
1428
01:33:17.870 --> 01:33:25.285
And then, you know, we can oppose the regulators because we don't need to use services. We don't need to participate in k y KYC.
1429
01:33:25.745 --> 01:33:32.485
I don't even need to consider sending coin coin join UTXOs to to the exchange because I don't use exchanges.
1430
01:33:33.599 --> 01:33:35.219
And Right. Not going to be either.
1431
01:33:35.520 --> 01:33:39.699
A lot of new coiners find it hard to believe, but I have literally never deposited
1432
01:33:40.245 --> 01:33:43.945
any Bitcoin into any regulated service ever, period.
1433
01:33:45.364 --> 01:33:49.864
And I have no intention to ever do that in the future. It's an exit. You have to exit the system.
1434
01:33:50.550 --> 01:34:01.785
But do you agree here well, I guess, do you agree that there's, like, a sense of urgency here? Like, I feel like there's a sense of urgency. Like, we need Bitcoiners to be aware of this shit. They need to be aware of it yesterday, and they we need to increase adoption.
1435
01:34:02.725 --> 01:34:11.940
I'm about to pull up a this is Kraken, you know, they have shitcoin issues, but, Jesse Powell, the Kraken founder, has been very outspoken
1436
01:34:15.235 --> 01:34:20.855
about information collection and being against that and and pushing back against government overreach.
1437
01:34:21.620 --> 01:34:28.520
And in that regard, they're they lead the way with their information disclosures in terms of of how much information is asked,
1438
01:34:29.745 --> 01:34:31.125
from them from governments.
1439
01:34:31.665 --> 01:34:36.165
So I'm putting on the screen for the people who are watching live or watching the video version,
1440
01:34:37.950 --> 01:34:39.010
This is their
1441
01:34:39.390 --> 01:34:40.850
law enforcement request.
1442
01:34:42.830 --> 01:34:45.490
It's a fucking issue, man. Like, this is crazy.
1443
01:34:49.225 --> 01:34:49.725
Well,
1444
01:34:52.665 --> 01:35:06.515
yeah, you shouldn't expose yourself to this. And, you know, raising awareness of it and explaining why it is important, I think, you know, I I I try to do, for example, like, regular tweets about what's the value in coin joints. You know? And I do believe that
1445
01:35:07.375 --> 01:35:07.875
fungible
1446
01:35:08.255 --> 01:35:12.515
coins are more valuable, the ones which are trace traceable and tied to an identity.
1447
01:35:14.120 --> 01:35:15.500
And not because,
1448
01:35:15.800 --> 01:35:26.775
you know, one you can sell and exchange another one not, but because the fungible ones you can spend as you like without exposing your history and exposing your your position and privacy.
1449
01:35:29.690 --> 01:35:31.310
I I think I think
1450
01:35:31.770 --> 01:35:35.310
Matt is is is coming back to to the same
1451
01:35:36.010 --> 01:35:40.495
same similar topic all all the time, which is I think there is
1452
01:35:41.275 --> 01:35:42.095
a there is
1453
01:35:42.475 --> 01:35:44.415
a there is a conflict between
1454
01:35:47.010 --> 01:35:47.830
some developers
1455
01:35:49.889 --> 01:35:51.750
who who acknowledge that
1456
01:35:52.130 --> 01:35:55.270
trusted third parties are security risk,
1457
01:35:55.815 --> 01:36:00.395
and so we should stay as far away from them as possible
1458
01:36:00.935 --> 01:36:01.995
and not do anything.
1459
01:36:02.615 --> 01:36:04.235
But on the other hand,
1460
01:36:04.730 --> 01:36:05.469
you know, celebrities
1461
01:36:06.090 --> 01:36:09.070
are posting about Bitcoin. Elon Musk is
1462
01:36:09.530 --> 01:36:10.829
is bringing up,
1463
01:36:12.545 --> 01:36:15.685
bringing in a flood of new users. And
1464
01:36:16.385 --> 01:36:17.365
and, you know,
1465
01:36:17.745 --> 01:36:21.125
if you think about in it it that way then,
1466
01:36:22.770 --> 01:36:25.670
sure, trusted third parties are security risk.
1467
01:36:26.930 --> 01:36:27.430
But
1468
01:36:28.210 --> 01:36:29.670
how can you maximize
1469
01:36:30.130 --> 01:36:31.864
the good that you can
1470
01:36:32.165 --> 01:36:35.065
can do? And that would be like
1471
01:36:36.405 --> 01:36:38.824
like trying to be a user friendly applications
1472
01:36:39.205 --> 01:36:39.445
that
1473
01:36:40.440 --> 01:36:41.820
well, at at first,
1474
01:36:42.679 --> 01:36:44.440
make sure it's non custody.
1475
01:36:46.199 --> 01:36:49.820
Hopefully, I I think that's that's a good line there.
1476
01:36:50.735 --> 01:36:51.875
The other thing is
1477
01:36:52.574 --> 01:36:56.034
try to improve your the privacy of your users.
1478
01:36:58.450 --> 01:37:06.150
What else do we have? Oh, yeah. The people at the Lightning Network, they want to fix the scaling issue. And and the last
1479
01:37:06.685 --> 01:37:07.185
last
1480
01:37:07.485 --> 01:37:11.265
front here, which no one really talks about anymore, is that
1481
01:37:11.565 --> 01:37:12.065
decentralized
1482
01:37:12.445 --> 01:37:12.925
the miners,
1483
01:37:14.240 --> 01:37:14.740
because
1484
01:37:15.200 --> 01:37:18.340
we kinda lost that far at at this point.
1485
01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:22.100
So so so, yeah, there is a sense of urgency. Right? And
1486
01:37:22.825 --> 01:37:26.045
and if we we consider that we don't
1487
01:37:26.505 --> 01:37:28.445
don't touch any
1488
01:37:28.905 --> 01:37:33.070
any any trusted third party, we don't consider them at all,
1489
01:37:33.610 --> 01:37:34.110
then,
1490
01:37:34.410 --> 01:37:37.710
you don't maximize the good that you can do in the world.
1491
01:37:38.810 --> 01:37:39.310
However,
1492
01:37:40.864 --> 01:37:47.445
just just just solely on the blacklisting list issue, I I I believe if we build
1493
01:37:48.119 --> 01:37:49.739
stuff into our software
1494
01:37:50.040 --> 01:37:50.860
that is
1495
01:37:52.119 --> 01:37:53.659
that is considering
1496
01:37:54.040 --> 01:37:55.579
the blacklisting, then
1497
01:37:57.215 --> 01:38:03.475
that's the lowest level where we can be at staffing to and acknowledge the blacklisting issue, and and that's
1498
01:38:04.050 --> 01:38:06.070
that's that's how you lose it.
1499
01:38:08.850 --> 01:38:15.305
I mean, look, I a 100% agree. We've said this on the show a 1000000 times. Trust your parties are security holes.
1500
01:38:15.845 --> 01:38:18.825
You wanna use trust minimized services as much as possible.
1501
01:38:19.685 --> 01:38:22.185
Anyone who uses the word trustless is probably
1502
01:38:22.650 --> 01:38:27.550
acting in bad faith because there's very few things in our life that actually have zero trust whatsoever.
1503
01:38:29.130 --> 01:38:30.750
But there there is an interesting
1504
01:38:31.210 --> 01:38:31.710
disconnect
1505
01:38:32.175 --> 01:38:32.675
between,
1506
01:38:36.655 --> 01:38:37.635
Bitcoin Twitter
1507
01:38:38.415 --> 01:38:40.115
and the real world
1508
01:38:40.540 --> 01:38:41.280
where we
1509
01:38:42.380 --> 01:38:50.079
see the overwhelming majority of of privacy seeking Bitcoin users, especially before Wasabi existed, but even now,
1510
01:38:52.525 --> 01:38:54.705
choose to go with custodial mixers,
1511
01:38:56.205 --> 01:38:57.745
which have, you know,
1512
01:38:58.400 --> 01:39:03.860
obviously, like, they've they've been accused of being honey pots in the past. You have to have complete trust in them,
1513
01:39:05.120 --> 01:39:12.805
but they they a 100% break the the transaction graph. So I I would there there is there's a nuanced argument here,
1514
01:39:14.710 --> 01:39:21.850
and and and Open Arms kinda said it on, on his own. Right? And someone said in the comments, I think it was I think it was Kiteminer said in the comments,
1515
01:39:22.435 --> 01:39:24.455
Wallet of Satoshi, like, could custodial
1516
01:39:24.755 --> 01:39:25.415
a custodial
1517
01:39:25.715 --> 01:39:26.215
wallet,
1518
01:39:27.795 --> 01:39:35.040
provides a a level of privacy that that that breaks that transaction graph, but then you have to trust that entity. Right?
1519
01:39:36.620 --> 01:39:40.240
Yeah. You know, that's that's a huge mystery for me because
1520
01:39:41.364 --> 01:39:43.304
you asked me what I learned. And
1521
01:39:43.605 --> 01:39:52.800
one of the assumption that I had when launching wasabi is that, you know, it's it's it's just like custody on mixers. It's just
1522
01:39:53.820 --> 01:39:54.639
does not
1523
01:39:55.179 --> 01:39:57.440
need a third party trust, and
1524
01:39:58.465 --> 01:40:07.605
it it and it's it's non custody. Yeah. And, you know, I thought that, well, I'm gonna launch for savvy, and everyone's gonna come
1525
01:40:08.270 --> 01:40:09.010
right away
1526
01:40:09.949 --> 01:40:11.409
and start using it.
1527
01:40:11.710 --> 01:40:15.809
But that didn't happen. It took, like, a year to get a decent volume
1528
01:40:16.510 --> 01:40:17.730
at wasabi, and
1529
01:40:18.415 --> 01:40:21.155
and and the castor diar mixers are still the
1530
01:40:22.415 --> 01:40:24.175
the the majority of the
1531
01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:30.900
Like, it's not even close. Right? Users. They're they're having they have way, way, way more volume.
1532
01:40:33.054 --> 01:40:35.635
Exact exactly. Actually, I I I did calculations.
1533
01:40:35.935 --> 01:40:40.355
I I don't know if they are correct, but back then my calculations were that
1534
01:40:41.280 --> 01:40:44.179
if we have 100 people in the coin join, then
1535
01:40:45.199 --> 01:40:47.540
taking the cast of the almixer volume,
1536
01:40:48.175 --> 01:40:52.035
we would be able to do a 100 people coin join in every
1537
01:40:52.495 --> 01:40:53.715
3 to 5 minutes.
1538
01:40:55.215 --> 01:40:56.755
Well, we are not there.
1539
01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:06.100
Open Arms, do you have an opinion on this disconnect? Like, I feel like there's, like, a massive disconnect between, like, the users and the
1540
01:41:06.465 --> 01:41:09.925
the, you know, the so called Bitcoin fanatics like you call them.
1541
01:41:12.705 --> 01:41:15.765
Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure how we can prove the
1542
01:41:16.120 --> 01:41:17.580
the volume on
1543
01:41:18.440 --> 01:41:21.080
on costidore mixers. I mean, wouldn't that be just,
1544
01:41:21.719 --> 01:41:24.600
so called, like, wash wash mixing, so called? You know, you just,
1545
01:41:25.195 --> 01:41:29.375
Yeah. I mean, there's the it's it's I mean, look, to if we're gonna be frank,
1546
01:41:30.555 --> 01:41:35.930
we we can't we can't really definitively prove the the volume of any of these tools.
1547
01:41:36.790 --> 01:41:42.330
We do. Because there there is an incentive that is is is built into these centralized,
1548
01:41:43.895 --> 01:41:46.875
coordinated coin joints to inflate volumes, and
1549
01:41:47.415 --> 01:41:49.034
and you you can absolutely,
1550
01:41:51.520 --> 01:41:52.960
you you can you can absolutely,
1551
01:41:53.280 --> 01:41:55.280
inflate volumes on join market as well. Right?
1552
01:41:57.200 --> 01:41:58.660
But if you look at, like,
1553
01:41:59.455 --> 01:42:01.614
Bitcoin talk signatures and stuff,
1554
01:42:01.935 --> 01:42:03.235
Bitcoin talk conversations,
1555
01:42:03.535 --> 01:42:04.035
dread,
1556
01:42:04.415 --> 01:42:08.114
like you look at the forums, you look at, like, the dark net market forums and stuff,
1557
01:42:08.870 --> 01:42:15.770
people don't realize like the 1st custodial mixer, the 1st really widespread used custodial mixer was Silk Road. Right?
1558
01:42:16.855 --> 01:42:20.555
You see the users talking about it. They're use they're people are using it.
1559
01:42:21.574 --> 01:42:22.795
Yeah. Because it's easy.
1560
01:42:23.320 --> 01:42:25.739
I mean, the other other thing is to
1561
01:42:26.360 --> 01:42:29.660
is just how small, but incentive to participate.
1562
01:42:30.040 --> 01:42:32.219
I mean, you know, I I I feel that
1563
01:42:32.645 --> 01:42:41.360
with the Lightning Network as well as with joint markets that you can without giving up up custody of your funds, you can participate in something which
1564
01:42:41.920 --> 01:42:42.659
you can
1565
01:42:43.360 --> 01:42:45.860
think I think it is beneficial either
1566
01:42:46.320 --> 01:42:50.100
like providing liquidity on the light network for routing and people to pastry
1567
01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:54.764
or for coin join liquidity in in join market, and you can actually
1568
01:42:55.065 --> 01:42:59.005
earn make some set of shoes out of it. It is a good feeling. And it also,
1569
01:42:59.340 --> 01:43:23.395
you know, happens because you have these people who have this mindset that you your money should do something. Right? This comes from a fiat mindset of basically from an inflationary currency. But there are these things which you can do without giving up the custody and your security of your funds and even you can I mean, for both things, you get you get some usefulness out of it? If you have your funds on lightning, you have basically the most liquid
1570
01:43:23.875 --> 01:43:28.935
way of having Bitcoin around in your custody. And in coin join,
1571
01:43:29.715 --> 01:43:35.930
as even as a maker, as a liquidity provider, you are increasing the privacy of your of your funds.
1572
01:43:36.710 --> 01:43:49.000
Well, so just to be clear here, so 61 2 asked me or asked all of us in the live chat, what is the incentive to inflate joint market volume? I didn't mean to really so the incentive for coordinated coin joins,
1573
01:43:49.480 --> 01:43:51.340
like Wasabi and Samurai
1574
01:43:51.960 --> 01:44:02.915
is to make it seem like there's more people using it, and then they those coordinators make more in fees. And in Wasabi, there's actually because the fees scale up with the the more
1575
01:44:03.454 --> 01:44:06.114
the more inputs in a in a coin join,
1576
01:44:06.610 --> 01:44:08.950
there's actually a reverse incentive where if
1577
01:44:09.890 --> 01:44:11.350
if they were to increase
1578
01:44:11.730 --> 01:44:17.155
the volume, they would make more in fees in addition to just making it perceived more common.
1579
01:44:17.695 --> 01:44:23.315
With join market, that's not the case because you don't have a centralized coordinator, you have this maker taker structure.
1580
01:44:24.490 --> 01:44:26.750
What I meant to what what I meant is
1581
01:44:27.050 --> 01:44:29.950
I didn't mean to imply that there's an incentive to
1582
01:44:32.435 --> 01:44:39.495
to to in inflate joint market numbers. What I meant to say is is that the volume numbers should be treated as an upper bound,
1583
01:44:40.275 --> 01:44:41.335
because you can
1584
01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.820
a let's let's run through a hypothetical. A hypothetical
1585
01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:46.020
being
1586
01:44:46.640 --> 01:44:50.020
a major chain surveillance firm that is valued at $3,000,000,000
1587
01:44:52.895 --> 01:44:55.075
is is is providing maker
1588
01:44:55.535 --> 01:44:56.035
maker
1589
01:44:56.895 --> 01:45:01.780
liquidity on on join market to have a better insight on what's happening over there.
1590
01:45:02.720 --> 01:45:22.580
And they're also running a taker bot that runs through the maker to make it seem like more people are using join markets, so people feel more comfortable and come over there and end up using them as a maker. So there there it should it should always be treated as the upper bound. It should not be treated as a hard number. It should be treated as, okay, we know there's not more than this volume.
1591
01:45:23.755 --> 01:45:28.975
There's there's there could be as much as this volume, but it's probably somewhere below that.
1592
01:45:29.755 --> 01:45:30.575
Would you agree,
1593
01:45:31.190 --> 01:45:32.010
both of you?
1594
01:45:33.190 --> 01:45:38.010
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. It's just, you know, obviously, this entity would end up paying random makers,
1595
01:45:38.755 --> 01:45:41.574
you know, money which is, I mean, you know, they
1596
01:45:41.875 --> 01:45:43.815
they got the service because they paid for it.
1597
01:45:44.275 --> 01:45:47.255
Obviously, this is not good. But then you would
1598
01:45:49.270 --> 01:45:50.730
yeah. Also you don't
1599
01:45:51.350 --> 01:45:52.650
need to be closed
1600
01:45:53.110 --> 01:45:53.610
into
1601
01:45:54.310 --> 01:45:55.290
one of the,
1602
01:45:57.155 --> 01:46:02.935
you know, gardens of one solution to this. Not speaking of, like, one coin joint implementation
1603
01:46:03.475 --> 01:46:07.500
and also not speak about one privacy technique. Right? You can combine nowadays.
1604
01:46:07.880 --> 01:46:23.820
I think I do think there's a best is to coin join and go to lightning. And then when you go off go from go out from lightning because you close the channel with the balance, you go back to coinjoin. And then again, you only have to only open another channel when you have CoinJoin those funds.
1605
01:46:24.840 --> 01:46:27.340
And, you know, it's just, you need to
1606
01:46:28.120 --> 01:46:29.420
jump between these things.
1607
01:46:32.565 --> 01:46:33.385
No problem.
1608
01:46:33.764 --> 01:46:37.864
Yeah. No one really talks about this. Do you agree with me that there's a broken incentive?
1609
01:46:38.210 --> 01:46:45.429
Like, I I I I believe you guys are I I love your team. I don't think you're I would never call you a spook. I I I don't,
1610
01:46:46.405 --> 01:46:50.025
I don't like that that these things always devolve into personal attacks.
1611
01:46:50.485 --> 01:46:57.520
But do you agree with me that, like, that as as a coordinator in the Wasabi implementation, the coordinator is able to
1612
01:46:58.400 --> 01:47:03.940
they they have a broken incentive where if they inflate the volume numbers, if they run their own funds through
1613
01:47:04.405 --> 01:47:04.905
Wasabi,
1614
01:47:07.205 --> 01:47:08.825
the the fees are increased?
1615
01:47:10.725 --> 01:47:12.425
So I I actually
1616
01:47:12.930 --> 01:47:14.630
would like to go even
1617
01:47:15.090 --> 01:47:18.630
deeper into this this topic with you because
1618
01:47:20.345 --> 01:47:20.845
because
1619
01:47:21.305 --> 01:47:21.705
if
1620
01:47:22.665 --> 01:47:27.485
so so so I was research I was trying to familiarize myself with your views. And
1621
01:47:27.940 --> 01:47:30.520
and if I'm not mistaken, then
1622
01:47:33.139 --> 01:47:34.280
this topic
1623
01:47:34.739 --> 01:47:35.239
is
1624
01:47:35.804 --> 01:47:37.185
your main criticism
1625
01:47:37.565 --> 01:47:39.585
of Wasabi. Is is that correct?
1626
01:47:40.045 --> 01:47:43.905
My main criticism is is that mixed with the fact
1627
01:47:44.410 --> 01:47:46.030
that I think the user defaults,
1628
01:47:46.490 --> 01:47:49.950
which we we touched on earlier, I think the user defaults are
1629
01:47:52.855 --> 01:48:01.835
are are are not adequate. Like, I feel like when I onboard someone onto Wasabi, I have to tell them, like, a bunch of a bunch of best practices that they have to change after they get onboarded.
1630
01:48:04.310 --> 01:48:08.730
Oh, alright. So let let let's let's stick with maybe this topic
1631
01:48:09.365 --> 01:48:12.985
at first, and then we'll see where we are going from here. So,
1632
01:48:15.765 --> 01:48:17.065
let let me see.
1633
01:48:17.970 --> 01:48:25.670
Maybe I just I just bring up a few statistics that may be may be relevant later. No. I mean, before we get there, just, like, really quick, like
1634
01:48:26.145 --> 01:48:42.300
like, Wasabi fees are based on the number of inputs in a in a round. Right? They scale up. If if I if it's a 100 person if it's a 100 UTXO round, it's more expensive for the user than if it's a a a a 25 person a 25 UTXO round. Right?
1635
01:48:43.245 --> 01:48:52.780
Uh-huh. Exactly. And And the fees are paid to the Wasabi coordinator, which is the the coordinator itself. So, obviously, it's not providing civil resistance
1636
01:48:53.160 --> 01:49:00.155
to the coordinator itself unless unless on chain fees are high. I'll give you that. But on chain fees have not been high in the past.
1637
01:49:00.715 --> 01:49:03.054
Oh, okay. So that's that's where we are diverging.
1638
01:49:04.635 --> 01:49:05.375
Okay. Because
1639
01:49:06.155 --> 01:49:08.735
I agree with you that there is an economical
1640
01:49:09.080 --> 01:49:10.940
incentive for the coordinator to do
1641
01:49:11.240 --> 01:49:12.140
to to participate,
1642
01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:14.780
but I do not agree with the implications
1643
01:49:15.320 --> 01:49:15.820
there.
1644
01:49:17.895 --> 01:49:18.635
But anyhow,
1645
01:49:19.054 --> 01:49:20.535
be because because it's
1646
01:49:22.055 --> 01:49:24.155
would you like to say something else?
1647
01:49:24.909 --> 01:49:30.530
No. I'm not I'm I'm letting you speak. I I I just it's it's not that I'm not trying to accuse you of doing it.
1648
01:49:30.909 --> 01:49:37.325
I'm just saying that, you know, that's what makes it trust minimized service rather than something that's trustless. I mean, you have to
1649
01:49:37.945 --> 01:49:40.925
like, we're trusting that you're not sibling your own rounds.
1650
01:49:41.740 --> 01:49:42.640
Uh-huh. Okay.
1651
01:49:43.580 --> 01:49:44.080
So
1652
01:49:45.980 --> 01:49:47.040
would you mind
1653
01:49:48.140 --> 01:49:51.280
explaining what do you mean by CPL attack?
1654
01:49:53.245 --> 01:49:56.545
I I mean, filling the rounds with your own UTXOs
1655
01:49:57.885 --> 01:49:59.265
to increase the fees
1656
01:50:00.310 --> 01:50:01.850
of of your own rounds.
1657
01:50:02.150 --> 01:50:04.650
Right? Because because the the the historically,
1658
01:50:05.510 --> 01:50:07.690
as a user of of Wasabi,
1659
01:50:09.135 --> 01:50:12.035
I paid you a large amount in coinjoin fees,
1660
01:50:13.375 --> 01:50:14.995
and those coinjoin fees
1661
01:50:15.590 --> 01:50:18.650
are significantly higher than on chain fees I paid.
1662
01:50:19.590 --> 01:50:23.290
It's it's not even close. Like, the like like, when the on chain fees
1663
01:50:23.704 --> 01:50:30.925
flip the CoinJoin fees, then that's a a proper incentive, and I think that will happen in the future. It just has not happened yet.
1664
01:50:32.960 --> 01:50:35.700
Alright. So the the intuition there is,
1665
01:50:36.400 --> 01:50:38.980
if you think about it, let's say, 99
1666
01:50:39.845 --> 01:50:41.785
honest users and one coordinator
1667
01:50:42.245 --> 01:50:44.025
peer. And and the question is,
1668
01:50:44.565 --> 01:50:46.745
does it make sense to add the coordinator
1669
01:50:47.205 --> 01:50:47.705
peer
1670
01:50:48.469 --> 01:50:56.170
there? Do we do we get would we get more money out of the the coin joints than what we put in?
1671
01:50:56.655 --> 01:50:58.275
Right? That's that's the question.
1672
01:51:00.094 --> 01:51:00.594
Right.
1673
01:51:00.895 --> 01:51:02.675
Yes. And and the answer is yes.
1674
01:51:03.900 --> 01:51:05.920
We would get more money,
1675
01:51:06.540 --> 01:51:08.720
out of the coin join if we would participate.
1676
01:51:09.660 --> 01:51:10.640
Okay. So
1677
01:51:11.100 --> 01:51:17.014
let's let's look at the lower end here, which is there is only one honest user.
1678
01:51:17.795 --> 01:51:21.094
So would it make sense for us to
1679
01:51:21.400 --> 01:51:22.540
to add the coordinator
1680
01:51:23.080 --> 01:51:23.580
peer?
1681
01:51:25.800 --> 01:51:26.780
What do you mean?
1682
01:51:28.280 --> 01:51:30.620
I mean, if there is one honest user,
1683
01:51:32.135 --> 01:51:36.235
does it make sense the coordinator to coin join with that honest user?
1684
01:51:37.415 --> 01:51:42.850
Well, I mean I mean, that that that is User pays for it. Yeah. What was that, Openoms?
1685
01:51:43.310 --> 01:51:47.969
The user pays for it. Of course, it would. Yeah. It would still it'd still be worth it. You'd still make money.
1686
01:51:49.145 --> 01:51:49.885
The coordinator
1687
01:51:50.344 --> 01:51:52.445
also pays network fees.
1688
01:51:53.145 --> 01:51:55.565
Right. If if if network fees go up
1689
01:51:55.950 --> 01:51:58.610
if network fees go up, which they have been recently,
1690
01:51:59.550 --> 01:52:00.050
then
1691
01:52:00.510 --> 01:52:09.804
then all of a sudden the incentive starts working itself out. But historically and also the other thing is if rounds are routinely full, if they're hitting the 100100
1692
01:52:10.505 --> 01:52:16.900
UTXO cap, you're leaving fees on the table if you try and come in, but both of those things haven't been the case.
1693
01:52:18.640 --> 01:52:21.285
The other thing is this is not just Wasabi
1694
01:52:21.665 --> 01:52:24.725
this is not just your coordinator. There there are other coordinators
1695
01:52:26.065 --> 01:52:28.005
that you can use with Wasabi.
1696
01:52:28.460 --> 01:52:32.159
All those coordinators have the broken incentive to inflate their own volume.
1697
01:52:36.035 --> 01:52:37.815
Oh, okay. I I just want to
1698
01:52:38.195 --> 01:52:40.615
to go exactly precisely into
1699
01:52:41.075 --> 01:52:41.575
what
1700
01:52:42.035 --> 01:52:42.855
the incentive
1701
01:52:43.530 --> 01:52:44.750
what is it incentivizing
1702
01:52:45.290 --> 01:52:48.030
for because, you know, it's it's not that hard.
1703
01:52:48.570 --> 01:52:50.430
And and if you think about it,
1704
01:52:51.205 --> 01:52:52.505
not think about it,
1705
01:52:53.045 --> 01:52:54.585
average network fees
1706
01:52:54.885 --> 01:52:59.625
per user in Vasavi coin joins in the last month was $2,
1707
01:53:00.410 --> 01:53:00.910
and
1708
01:53:01.370 --> 01:53:01.950
the coordinator
1709
01:53:02.410 --> 01:53:02.910
fee,
1710
01:53:03.610 --> 01:53:04.270
per participant,
1711
01:53:04.810 --> 01:53:06.750
per anonymity set is $0.16.
1712
01:53:08.155 --> 01:53:11.775
So what we can get out of this is that
1713
01:53:12.955 --> 01:53:13.455
99
1714
01:53:13.835 --> 01:53:14.895
honest peers
1715
01:53:15.630 --> 01:53:16.850
all pay $0.16
1716
01:53:18.430 --> 01:53:20.050
for 1 more coordinator
1717
01:53:21.310 --> 01:53:21.810
peer.
1718
01:53:22.190 --> 01:53:22.690
Right?
1719
01:53:25.225 --> 01:53:29.325
You're implying that the network fee is more expensive than the coin joint fee.
1720
01:53:30.960 --> 01:53:36.980
Oh, I'm I'm no. No. No. I'm I'm implying exactly what are the network fees here and what are the coin join fees.
1721
01:53:38.055 --> 01:53:40.635
The when when if the user uses Wasabi,
1722
01:53:41.255 --> 01:53:43.435
the coin joint fee is the significant
1723
01:53:44.135 --> 01:53:50.409
expense. Is that the the the fee I pay you is significantly more expensive than the fee I pay the Bitcoin miners. Right?
1724
01:53:52.070 --> 01:53:55.449
I'm not sure that's the case, but I don't think that's relevant.
1725
01:53:56.715 --> 01:54:03.295
That is the crux of the that's the crux of the incentive issue. Look. I I and I I wanna be absolutely clear here.
1726
01:54:04.440 --> 01:54:05.580
Any centralized
1727
01:54:06.360 --> 01:54:13.505
coordinated coin joint in my mind does not provide civil resistance against the coordinator. If the coordinator wants to attack you, the coordinator
1728
01:54:14.765 --> 01:54:18.945
can do so at minimal cost because they don't have to pay the CoinJoin fee regardless.
1729
01:54:19.670 --> 01:54:23.530
My issue is that in the way Wasabi is implemented currently,
1730
01:54:25.350 --> 01:54:28.650
the there is actually even worse than that because
1731
01:54:29.015 --> 01:54:29.915
there's a direct
1732
01:54:30.455 --> 01:54:33.675
financial incentive for the coordinator to increase
1733
01:54:34.135 --> 01:54:37.835
the for the coordinator to push their own volume through the system.
1734
01:54:39.610 --> 01:54:41.870
Yeah. Yes. Exactly. It's just
1735
01:54:44.250 --> 01:54:45.390
it's just not
1736
01:54:46.170 --> 01:54:48.430
not not a silly incentive, but,
1737
01:54:48.915 --> 01:54:49.895
you know, because
1738
01:54:52.034 --> 01:54:53.415
do you do you understand
1739
01:54:53.795 --> 01:54:56.455
why it doesn't make sense for the coordinator
1740
01:54:57.074 --> 01:54:57.574
to
1741
01:54:58.110 --> 01:54:58.610
participate
1742
01:54:59.870 --> 01:55:00.370
if
1743
01:55:01.070 --> 01:55:07.875
only 1 user there one honest user there is because the coordinator piece pays more network fees
1744
01:55:08.255 --> 01:55:08.735
than the
1745
01:55:09.375 --> 01:55:13.074
than how much the user would pay for coordinator fees.
1746
01:55:13.410 --> 01:55:21.990
I don't think that's the case. I think I think the coordinator fees outpace the network fees currently. No. No. I I I see what you mean, but, you know, this is an extreme extreme
1747
01:55:23.085 --> 01:55:29.905
example of having just one honest user but let's say we have 50 honest users and you have 50 from the coordinator
1748
01:55:30.285 --> 01:55:31.660
then, you know, you would
1749
01:55:32.300 --> 01:55:35.840
increase the reward with 50 times. Right? Significantly.
1750
01:55:37.020 --> 01:55:41.120
Even if you weren't trying to deanonymize them, you're just trying to make money. You're just trying to print money.
1751
01:55:42.445 --> 01:55:47.105
Exactly. That's where I'm going with it. Right? Like, first, we guide some in
1752
01:55:47.485 --> 01:55:49.425
the 99 honest peers
1753
01:55:50.370 --> 01:55:51.590
plus one coordinator
1754
01:55:51.969 --> 01:55:52.469
peer,
1755
01:55:52.850 --> 01:55:53.350
and
1756
01:55:54.130 --> 01:55:57.270
one more coordinator peer would add
1757
01:55:58.155 --> 01:55:58.655
$0.16
1758
01:56:01.115 --> 01:56:02.095
gets $0.16
1759
01:56:03.115 --> 01:56:05.535
from every Anna's peer. So that's
1760
01:56:05.889 --> 01:56:07.030
99 times
1761
01:56:07.409 --> 01:56:07.909
0.16.
1762
01:56:11.170 --> 01:56:14.949
Okay. And and on the other end, when there is only 1 honest user,
1763
01:56:15.495 --> 01:56:21.514
then we also established it doesn't make sense, the coordinator, to join in. So somewhere
1764
01:56:22.135 --> 01:56:22.875
in between,
1765
01:56:23.574 --> 01:56:24.795
it makes sense.
1766
01:56:27.050 --> 01:56:28.350
Can can you guys follow?
1767
01:56:29.130 --> 01:56:29.630
Yeah.
1768
01:56:30.730 --> 01:56:35.425
Look. My my point is is I I think I think as on chain fees increase,
1769
01:56:35.965 --> 01:56:38.065
that provides a natural civil
1770
01:56:39.245 --> 01:56:41.344
defense to the centralized coordinators.
1771
01:56:42.739 --> 01:56:45.000
It just has not been the case so far.
1772
01:56:45.460 --> 01:56:49.239
I think a fixed fee to enter a CoinJoin liquidity pool
1773
01:56:49.555 --> 01:56:50.055
is
1774
01:56:50.435 --> 01:56:53.175
as a a way better incentive in this scenario,
1775
01:56:53.955 --> 01:56:54.455
because
1776
01:56:54.915 --> 01:56:57.230
increasing volume doesn't get you more in fees,
1777
01:56:57.710 --> 01:56:58.210
period.
1778
01:57:00.030 --> 01:57:00.530
I
1779
01:57:04.430 --> 01:57:05.650
I I I think
1780
01:57:06.165 --> 01:57:07.545
as a Wasabi user
1781
01:57:08.005 --> 01:57:17.539
who paid significant amount of Sats to you guys, like, I I I don't even want to go back and count how much Bitcoin I paid you guys. Like, I paid you guys a lot of fucking Bitcoin
1782
01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:19.139
to provide me privacy
1783
01:57:19.440 --> 01:57:19.940
improvement.
1784
01:57:21.039 --> 01:57:23.940
That was based on a perceived an onset.
1785
01:57:24.585 --> 01:57:27.805
Okay? It was based on how many people were in my round.
1786
01:57:28.425 --> 01:57:28.925
And
1787
01:57:29.545 --> 01:57:31.485
all of a sudden, there's this incentive
1788
01:57:31.945 --> 01:57:33.565
that's been there from the beginning
1789
01:57:34.560 --> 01:57:44.595
that the coordinator can be adding to that perceived onset when it's really not I'm not actually getting any privacy gain from that, but I'm paying for it. And then on top of that,
1790
01:57:45.295 --> 01:57:46.355
the average user,
1791
01:57:46.895 --> 01:57:49.395
because of the way the defaults are set up,
1792
01:57:49.890 --> 01:57:51.590
are going, and they're they're
1793
01:57:52.050 --> 01:57:56.070
they're ruining their forward privacy, which ruins my Anans set
1794
01:57:56.690 --> 01:58:00.485
going forward. Right? So if I if, let's say, I have 30 Honest Peers,
1795
01:58:01.105 --> 01:58:05.365
and those 30 Honest Peers, you know, 15 of them send their funds into BlockFi,
1796
01:58:06.305 --> 01:58:07.205
and, you know,
1797
01:58:07.740 --> 01:58:19.545
5 of them send it to OpenOM's mom and then, like, 2 send it to someone else. Like, all of a sudden, my Ananset is, like, 3, and I don't even fucking know. I have no fucking idea. It degrades rapidly,
1798
01:58:20.005 --> 01:58:22.184
and I'm paying a premium for it.
1799
01:58:24.950 --> 01:58:27.370
Do you does does that issue not make sense?
1800
01:58:33.304 --> 01:58:35.405
I'm I'm I'm not sure I'm following.
1801
01:58:38.425 --> 01:58:41.804
So so to be a little bit more productive, Wasabi 2.0,
1802
01:58:43.290 --> 01:58:46.750
is coming out hopefully in the next, like, 6 months, right,
1803
01:58:47.690 --> 01:58:48.670
or 8 months?
1804
01:58:49.450 --> 01:58:54.505
When do when do we expect Wasabi 2 point o? It doesn't matter. Wasabi 2 point o is coming as soon as possible.
1805
01:58:55.205 --> 01:58:56.905
With Wasabi 2 point o,
1806
01:58:57.430 --> 01:59:00.810
I'm gonna try and do a a high level description. Tell me if I'm wrong.
1807
01:59:02.950 --> 01:59:05.930
Users come in. They go and they
1808
01:59:06.335 --> 01:59:09.315
they they basically exchange their Bitcoin for, like,
1809
01:59:10.095 --> 01:59:11.635
a a momentary token
1810
01:59:12.095 --> 01:59:15.075
that is managed by the coordinator blind blindly,
1811
01:59:15.590 --> 01:59:18.489
and then they can apply that token to future transactions.
1812
01:59:19.670 --> 01:59:20.170
Right?
1813
01:59:23.085 --> 01:59:26.225
Is that a good high level description of a Savvy 2 point o? What?
1814
01:59:26.925 --> 01:59:28.625
So so this happens
1815
01:59:29.324 --> 01:59:32.290
I I'm I'm sorry. There are just a lot of topics
1816
01:59:32.750 --> 01:59:33.710
glossing over and
1817
01:59:35.309 --> 01:59:42.665
but but but, it happens within a coin join. I'm I'm not sure that's what you meant. Not future transactions, but
1818
01:59:43.045 --> 01:59:45.864
this happens within 1 coin join.
1819
01:59:47.790 --> 02:00:01.815
Was so so so what I'm trying to ask is is how's what is the fee structure in Wasabi 2 point o? Is is it is it will the Wasabi is the Wasabi fee structure the same as Wasabi 1 point o, or is it is it is it
1820
02:00:02.360 --> 02:00:05.579
is it a fixed fee? What what is is it changed at all?
1821
02:00:07.159 --> 02:00:10.619
So it has to be changed because the system is completely
1822
02:00:10.920 --> 02:00:11.420
different.
1823
02:00:12.585 --> 02:00:18.925
Also, because of the fee incentive we did not succeed to to go too much into.
1824
02:00:19.785 --> 02:00:21.405
And, also, because
1825
02:00:22.230 --> 02:00:23.690
we would like to
1826
02:00:25.190 --> 02:00:26.010
to create
1827
02:00:27.190 --> 02:00:32.885
to to to enable sharing the revenue with other services who are building on top of the WhatsApp,
1828
02:00:34.465 --> 02:00:35.445
daemon. And,
1829
02:00:36.625 --> 02:00:38.804
unfortunately, I can't say
1830
02:00:39.310 --> 02:00:42.929
how exactly these fees will be because I'm not
1831
02:00:43.550 --> 02:00:44.849
100% convinced
1832
02:00:45.230 --> 02:00:48.770
that there is a anonymous way to share revenue. And
1833
02:00:49.135 --> 02:00:49.635
if
1834
02:00:50.175 --> 02:00:51.475
if so so that
1835
02:00:52.015 --> 02:00:56.435
that that's very important in terms of how how the fees would be
1836
02:00:56.735 --> 02:00:57.475
would be
1837
02:00:59.060 --> 02:01:05.640
would be there. Right? So so it's not figured out at this point, but definitely has to change for multiple reasons.
1838
02:01:13.114 --> 02:01:13.614
Okay.
1839
02:01:14.320 --> 02:01:21.139
Do you can you give us, like, a high level, you know, high level kind of description of of the goal of Wasabi 2 point o?
1840
02:01:21.525 --> 02:01:24.265
Like, how like, how it works. So high level kind of,
1841
02:01:24.805 --> 02:01:31.780
explain it like we're a Bitcoin fanatic. You know, not I don't I don't have to be 5 years old. I just need
1842
02:01:32.800 --> 02:01:35.460
to have, like, a high level kind of discussion here.
1843
02:01:36.320 --> 02:01:39.860
Sure. So it's going to work like a normal Bitcoin wallet,
1844
02:01:40.625 --> 02:01:41.125
except
1845
02:01:42.784 --> 02:01:44.804
that when you are sending transactions,
1846
02:01:45.744 --> 02:01:46.485
you are
1847
02:01:47.105 --> 02:01:49.045
always sending mixed coins,
1848
02:01:50.560 --> 02:01:54.420
except when you did not have the time to mix them. And
1849
02:01:55.120 --> 02:02:00.465
it should it does not ask you to manually mix, but
1850
02:02:00.925 --> 02:02:01.425
the
1851
02:02:02.365 --> 02:02:12.550
the privacy things are happening all in the background. So so, basically, a normal Bitcoin wallet with with a couple of tweaks regarding the
1852
02:02:13.010 --> 02:02:20.135
how we we were able to replace coin control, but not exactly the same way as other wallets are doing
1853
02:02:21.155 --> 02:02:21.975
it. But,
1854
02:02:22.835 --> 02:02:25.255
but, yeah, for example, the cluster selection
1855
02:02:25.635 --> 02:02:26.375
or the
1856
02:02:27.450 --> 02:02:28.910
the the change avoidance,
1857
02:02:29.930 --> 02:02:34.350
but but, like, a normal Bitcoin wallet, it's privacy by default. Right?
1858
02:02:38.665 --> 02:02:39.565
Yeah. I mean,
1859
02:02:40.025 --> 02:02:44.490
so, like, my my, like, kind of understanding of it is, like, almost like
1860
02:02:47.050 --> 02:02:48.190
you you you, like,
1861
02:02:49.050 --> 02:02:58.985
you you get a share of whatever the round is, and then you can apply that share outside. You you can you can apply that share however you want. So you can come out with different
1862
02:02:59.285 --> 02:03:00.985
you can come in with different amounts,
1863
02:03:01.640 --> 02:03:05.980
and you can come out with different amounts than having, like, equal output coin joints.
1864
02:03:06.600 --> 02:03:07.420
Is that correct?
1865
02:03:08.895 --> 02:03:15.795
Alright. So so the amount organization is also something we did not fully fleshed out, but we
1866
02:03:16.190 --> 02:03:19.150
fleshed out in a way that I'm comfortable with
1867
02:03:19.949 --> 02:03:24.449
to a point that I'm comfortable with it even if it would be
1868
02:03:24.855 --> 02:03:28.554
it would be rolled out as it is as far as we figured
1869
02:03:29.014 --> 02:03:35.860
out, but others want to do some other stuff. Never mind. But how this works is that you come in with
1870
02:03:36.880 --> 02:03:37.380
arbitrary
1871
02:03:38.240 --> 02:03:39.140
input amounts,
1872
02:03:40.315 --> 02:03:40.815
And
1873
02:03:41.995 --> 02:03:50.960
you can come with multiple input inputs or only one input, doesn't matter, and and you can break them in any way, shape, or form except
1874
02:03:53.260 --> 02:03:54.240
for privacy.
1875
02:03:55.100 --> 02:03:58.320
You don't break them in any way, shape, or form.
1876
02:03:58.815 --> 02:04:00.595
But what we found
1877
02:04:00.975 --> 02:04:03.715
is the most blockchain efficient solution
1878
02:04:04.415 --> 02:04:06.915
that we we came up with is
1879
02:04:07.430 --> 02:04:08.170
is that
1880
02:04:08.710 --> 02:04:09.210
every
1881
02:04:09.670 --> 02:04:12.810
user looks at every other user's inputs.
1882
02:04:13.990 --> 02:04:14.490
And
1883
02:04:14.950 --> 02:04:15.850
based on
1884
02:04:16.315 --> 02:04:17.135
those inputs,
1885
02:04:17.515 --> 02:04:18.415
they randomly
1886
02:04:18.715 --> 02:04:20.495
generate a bunch of solutions
1887
02:04:21.115 --> 02:04:22.075
with a bunch of,
1888
02:04:22.875 --> 02:04:23.375
denomination
1889
02:04:23.675 --> 02:04:24.175
systems,
1890
02:04:25.380 --> 02:04:27.560
like powers of 2, powers of 3,
1891
02:04:27.940 --> 02:04:29.239
preferred value series.
1892
02:04:31.699 --> 02:04:37.085
But they are generating randomly a bunch of solution, and one of the solution will be submitted,
1893
02:04:38.425 --> 02:04:42.685
to to have their outputs. And this resulted in
1894
02:04:44.570 --> 02:04:45.310
pretty good
1895
02:04:46.330 --> 02:04:47.550
anonymity sets,
1896
02:04:48.810 --> 02:04:49.310
like,
1897
02:04:49.770 --> 02:04:50.090
around
1898
02:04:51.885 --> 02:04:55.905
it's variable. So so so sometimes it's 2, sometimes it's
1899
02:04:56.285 --> 02:04:56.785
20.
1900
02:04:57.245 --> 02:04:57.985
It depends.
1901
02:04:58.605 --> 02:04:59.105
But
1902
02:05:00.150 --> 02:05:04.250
we don't really have changes anymore, and we are able
1903
02:05:04.630 --> 02:05:06.330
to mix all the
1904
02:05:07.335 --> 02:05:10.075
all the inputs in in one go,
1905
02:05:10.935 --> 02:05:11.435
and
1906
02:05:12.055 --> 02:05:13.915
and there is no minimum denomination.
1907
02:05:14.935 --> 02:05:16.075
So it's
1908
02:05:16.660 --> 02:05:22.120
it's it's actually pretty cool, and we worked very hard on that for one and a half year.
1909
02:05:22.660 --> 02:05:23.160
So
1910
02:05:23.780 --> 02:05:24.900
so, yeah, it's like
1911
02:05:26.065 --> 02:05:29.365
I think this is how far coin joins can
1912
02:05:30.385 --> 02:05:31.205
can potentially
1913
02:05:32.225 --> 02:05:34.245
go if you don't consider
1914
02:05:35.040 --> 02:05:38.020
all these kind of crazy things like coin joins,
1915
02:05:38.400 --> 02:05:43.139
coin swaps and coin joins, or lightning channel openings and coin joins because those obviously
1916
02:05:44.395 --> 02:05:48.495
complexify many things. But as as far as on chain mixing,
1917
02:05:49.355 --> 02:05:50.895
with a couple of outputs,
1918
02:05:53.290 --> 02:05:54.750
No changes generated
1919
02:05:55.449 --> 02:05:55.949
arbitrary
1920
02:05:56.250 --> 02:05:56.750
inputs.
1921
02:05:57.530 --> 02:06:07.395
That's that's what what some of the tool can do right now. What what do we have to what kind of and, Obenom, just feel free to jump in here. What what kind of what kind of,
1922
02:06:08.435 --> 02:06:16.200
trust model is this? Like, do do we what do we what are we trusting the coordinator with? Is it is it almost like a little bit custodial while you're in that process
1923
02:06:16.745 --> 02:06:17.485
where the
1924
02:06:17.785 --> 02:06:22.605
the those the Wasabi core Wasabi 2 point o coordinator can can take money?
1925
02:06:23.785 --> 02:06:25.805
No. No. You're you're not testing
1926
02:06:26.440 --> 02:06:27.980
at all, the coordinator.
1927
02:06:29.639 --> 02:06:34.540
We're just matching all the all the UTXs in the wallets and trying to find
1928
02:06:34.865 --> 02:06:40.005
with an algorithm which would be the best kind of denominations to put in in the coin joints. Right?
1929
02:06:40.705 --> 02:06:43.365
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Based on other users' inputs,
1930
02:06:43.700 --> 02:06:44.440
you're guessing.
1931
02:06:45.060 --> 02:06:51.560
So you don't know exactly how much anonymity you will get out, but chances are you will
1932
02:06:51.875 --> 02:06:59.574
get out. You there will be other users guessing similar ways than you based on your inputs and other user inputs. So
1933
02:07:00.195 --> 02:07:00.934
so yeah.
1934
02:07:01.350 --> 02:07:02.570
Do you do you
1935
02:07:03.110 --> 02:07:07.929
do you think that is there any trust required in the coordinator in Wasabi 1 point o?
1936
02:07:11.875 --> 02:07:13.175
There are some
1937
02:07:14.355 --> 02:07:15.094
some minima
1938
02:07:15.715 --> 02:07:18.215
trust issues when we are adding, like,
1939
02:07:18.570 --> 02:07:19.390
2 inputs
1940
02:07:19.930 --> 02:07:22.590
to to a mix from the same user, then
1941
02:07:23.370 --> 02:07:29.375
then there is trust required. It obviously doesn't happen normally, but in edge cases,
1942
02:07:29.835 --> 02:07:30.575
it it does.
1943
02:07:33.115 --> 02:07:40.270
No. Not not really anything else I can I can come up with? Well, I would say the big one is exactly what I said earlier. Right? Is that
1944
02:07:40.910 --> 02:07:44.610
and you have no Sybil resistance from the coordinator. Do we not agree on this?
1945
02:07:45.804 --> 02:07:48.864
I I mean, yeah. Sure. We can we can go to the
1946
02:07:49.645 --> 02:07:51.105
go deep with this because
1947
02:07:51.565 --> 02:07:53.824
I I did some calculations. And
1948
02:07:54.610 --> 02:07:58.710
if if if you would like, then I I can tell you exactly that
1949
02:07:59.090 --> 02:08:00.630
what it is incentivizing
1950
02:08:01.170 --> 02:08:01.670
at.
1951
02:08:04.135 --> 02:08:06.715
Sure. Let's let's dive in.
1952
02:08:07.974 --> 02:08:15.620
My my previous example was was okay. By the way, that 99 peers, it makes sense to add 1 coordinator peer.
1953
02:08:16.160 --> 02:08:23.475
One peer, it it doesn't make sense to add 1 coordinator peer because coordinator piece more network fees.
1954
02:08:23.955 --> 02:08:32.440
It it makes sense. Right. But in practice, that's not the case. Right? In practice, you'll have, like, 40 honest maybe. Maybe you'll have, like, 10 or 15 coming from,
1955
02:08:33.095 --> 02:08:36.795
you know, a single entity, and then you also have so
1956
02:08:37.575 --> 02:08:42.235
do what what about what about remixing? Do we think that that that users should remix?
1957
02:08:43.950 --> 02:08:46.290
Should they do one round? Is one round alright?
1958
02:08:51.205 --> 02:08:52.265
Is this connected
1959
02:08:52.645 --> 02:08:54.425
to the previous conversations?
1960
02:08:55.125 --> 02:08:58.040
No. Not real I mean, it's connected in that, I think,
1961
02:08:58.440 --> 02:09:01.340
Wasabi anonymity sets are overstated.
1962
02:09:01.880 --> 02:09:06.300
You overpay for them based on the anonymity set, and then they degrade rapidly.
1963
02:09:07.605 --> 02:09:09.784
So I think that all users should remix.
1964
02:09:10.164 --> 02:09:13.465
Do we are we all on on the same page on this? Or
1965
02:09:14.620 --> 02:09:15.120
I'm
1966
02:09:16.060 --> 02:09:19.440
I'm I'm not sure. I mean, depends on the users. Right?
1967
02:09:20.380 --> 02:09:32.665
My I guess the issue that I'm coming from is that I feel like the default of 51 for the Anans set has always been way under state, like, it's just dangerous default, like, people should default
1968
02:09:33.980 --> 02:09:36.240
to at least at least 2 mixes.
1969
02:09:37.740 --> 02:09:44.665
At least at least at least a couple people should be remix and, like, at least some people in the the fucking round should be remixing, if not everybody.
1970
02:09:45.685 --> 02:09:46.185
Right?
1971
02:09:47.765 --> 02:09:48.665
Yeah. I mean,
1972
02:09:49.205 --> 02:09:49.705
25%
1973
02:09:50.405 --> 02:09:51.785
is remixing. Right?
1974
02:09:52.230 --> 02:09:54.090
But then why is the default 51
1975
02:09:55.030 --> 02:09:59.210
if that's just one round? And most most times, it's just a single round, 51.
1976
02:10:03.385 --> 02:10:05.405
Oh, because it's expensive. Right?
1977
02:10:07.305 --> 02:10:16.010
So we should have so does Wasabi 2.0 incentivize remixing? Does it make it so that a user doesn't have to pay more money to to have remixes?
1978
02:10:20.405 --> 02:10:24.105
I mean, you're paying the network fees which are not insignificant.
1979
02:10:24.885 --> 02:10:25.385
Right.
1980
02:10:26.000 --> 02:10:26.820
That's unavoidable,
1981
02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:30.260
but I'm talking about on the coin joint fee structure.
1982
02:10:36.735 --> 02:10:38.195
Should we change
1983
02:10:39.135 --> 02:10:40.835
okay. Are we not incentivizing
1984
02:10:41.375 --> 02:10:43.300
remixing right now? I
1985
02:10:43.760 --> 02:10:48.179
I don't think so because the default is 51, which is usually just a single round,
1986
02:10:48.719 --> 02:10:52.260
and you have to pay significantly more to continue to
1987
02:10:52.755 --> 02:10:53.415
to continue
1988
02:10:54.275 --> 02:10:55.335
to remix. Right?
1989
02:10:56.355 --> 02:10:59.175
You just said it yourself. You said it's more expensive to remix.
1990
02:11:01.510 --> 02:11:03.210
If you put in
1991
02:11:03.590 --> 02:11:05.929
let let's say let's let's keep it simple.
1992
02:11:06.309 --> 02:11:06.809
0.1
1993
02:11:07.110 --> 02:11:07.610
Bitcoin.
1994
02:11:08.985 --> 02:11:11.485
And when you're remixing that 0.1
1995
02:11:11.785 --> 02:11:12.285
Bitcoin,
1996
02:11:13.385 --> 02:11:13.885
then
1997
02:11:14.185 --> 02:11:20.500
then you don't pay the whole coordinator fees. You only pay as much as you have, which is a few Satoshis
1998
02:11:21.120 --> 02:11:24.420
left. In this case, you get the perfect mix.
1999
02:11:26.305 --> 02:11:36.730
But then if that's the case, then why are we why why is the default in Wasabi 51 instead of, you know, a couple mixes? Like, at least 1 o so, like, we're we're
2000
02:11:37.110 --> 02:11:40.969
if if I go back to what I said earlier, it's like when I'm trying to onboard people,
2001
02:11:41.385 --> 02:11:49.804
and I'm talking about Wasabi, I'm, like, okay. So then after you install it, like, go into settings, switch it to at least 101 so that that you know you're guaranteed at least one remix.
2002
02:11:50.250 --> 02:11:51.870
Do you agree that that's best practice?
2003
02:11:53.929 --> 02:11:55.870
I mean, it depends on who. Right?
2004
02:11:56.650 --> 02:11:57.710
I would not
2005
02:11:58.245 --> 02:11:58.985
keep remixing
2006
02:11:59.525 --> 02:12:03.465
forever. That's for sure. I'm not saying forever. I'm saying at least once.
2007
02:12:06.670 --> 02:12:12.450
I I think I would be okay with the single mix, for example. But, you know, like, you're you're remixing,
2008
02:12:12.910 --> 02:12:20.595
right, like, the the 50 unlimited set is not reached for all your coins. It's only reached for 0.1 Bitcoin, and
2009
02:12:20.975 --> 02:12:23.840
the rest you are you are still remixing. And
2010
02:12:24.719 --> 02:12:26.500
if you start with 0.8,
2011
02:12:27.040 --> 02:12:31.219
then you will have a couple of anonymity set on 0 point on a 0.2
2012
02:12:31.760 --> 02:12:34.715
coin and on a 0 point 4 coin.
2013
02:12:35.094 --> 02:12:36.155
Right? So
2014
02:12:36.695 --> 02:12:38.235
when you are putting that
2015
02:12:38.775 --> 02:12:39.815
into the mix
2016
02:12:40.910 --> 02:12:44.930
because that does not reach the 50 anonymity set
2017
02:12:45.390 --> 02:12:46.610
in the first round,
2018
02:12:47.230 --> 02:12:47.730
then,
2019
02:12:48.270 --> 02:12:49.410
you are remixing.
2020
02:12:52.255 --> 02:12:53.715
But yeah. I
2021
02:12:55.775 --> 02:12:58.500
do you think can I have a question? Do do do you,
2022
02:13:00.020 --> 02:13:01.240
from my understanding,
2023
02:13:03.860 --> 02:13:05.480
multiple mixes on
2024
02:13:06.585 --> 02:13:11.165
the same output, not talking about the other bigger remaining output,
2025
02:13:12.105 --> 02:13:12.605
is
2026
02:13:13.280 --> 02:13:15.860
more efficient in terms of gaining anonymity
2027
02:13:16.800 --> 02:13:19.380
than adding peers to one mix.
2028
02:13:21.120 --> 02:13:22.980
So what I'm trying to say is
2029
02:13:24.705 --> 02:13:25.445
that mixing
2030
02:13:25.824 --> 02:13:27.284
twice with 50
2031
02:13:27.824 --> 02:13:28.324
peers
2032
02:13:29.025 --> 02:13:29.525
is
2033
02:13:29.985 --> 02:13:30.965
reaching more
2034
02:13:32.449 --> 02:13:34.710
than once with a 100 peers.
2035
02:13:39.945 --> 02:13:42.285
I agree with that. And, Upar, do you agree with that?
2036
02:13:44.665 --> 02:13:45.165
So
2037
02:13:45.545 --> 02:13:47.324
that's a that's a good question.
2038
02:13:48.690 --> 02:13:49.190
I
2039
02:13:50.210 --> 02:13:55.590
I I actually, I had some calculation. Let me see if I can remember that.
2040
02:13:56.050 --> 02:13:56.550
So
2041
02:13:58.645 --> 02:14:00.425
so so the question is basically
2042
02:14:02.005 --> 02:14:03.145
similar to
2043
02:14:06.420 --> 02:14:06.920
1010
2044
02:14:07.540 --> 02:14:08.840
people coin join
2045
02:14:09.540 --> 02:14:10.040
versus
2046
02:14:10.500 --> 02:14:12.520
100 people coin join. Right?
2047
02:14:13.065 --> 02:14:22.920
That's Yeah. That that's a mathematical example. Exactly. Yes. Yes. I I don't I don't think it's simply additive. I mean, it's not completely exponential either, but it's somewhere in between.
2048
02:14:23.620 --> 02:14:24.120
So
2049
02:14:25.140 --> 02:14:30.040
Yeah. Multiple rounds are better than one big one, my in my opinion.
2050
02:14:30.845 --> 02:14:34.785
Yeah. Yeah. So so so my my point is that you can mathematically
2051
02:14:35.325 --> 02:14:37.105
tell which is better,
2052
02:14:37.810 --> 02:14:39.750
which is you're calculating
2053
02:14:40.210 --> 02:14:40.710
the
2054
02:14:42.290 --> 02:14:43.010
the equal
2055
02:14:44.130 --> 02:14:45.590
I'm I'm not sure.
2056
02:14:46.025 --> 02:14:48.925
Right? But, well, I definitely had the calculations,
2057
02:14:49.865 --> 02:14:54.685
a few half a month ago or something like that for that. Yeah. Sorry.
2058
02:14:55.409 --> 02:14:58.389
And and you also presume then if you are remixing,
2059
02:14:59.329 --> 02:15:04.935
then others too who you have been your peers. So, you know, the onset does kind
2060
02:15:05.395 --> 02:15:07.415
of branch out like that as well.
2061
02:15:09.850 --> 02:15:12.750
I I mean, you're presuming with the
2062
02:15:13.370 --> 02:15:14.190
it it
2063
02:15:14.970 --> 02:15:17.470
doesn't it it doesn't matter for
2064
02:15:18.235 --> 02:15:24.815
for 10:10 people coinjoin versus 100 people coinjoin. Others are branching out from that
2065
02:15:25.115 --> 02:15:25.615
anyway.
2066
02:15:31.070 --> 02:15:34.930
I mean, it's it's not the case if everyone is just doing 1.
2067
02:15:36.825 --> 02:15:39.885
Oh, yeah. But not everyone is doing 1. Right?
2068
02:15:40.425 --> 02:15:40.925
That's
2069
02:15:41.865 --> 02:15:42.365
25%
2070
02:15:42.905 --> 02:15:45.165
of the mixes are remixes.
2071
02:15:45.980 --> 02:15:46.720
So 25%
2072
02:15:47.340 --> 02:15:48.000
is not
2073
02:15:48.380 --> 02:15:49.360
doing that.
2074
02:15:50.380 --> 02:15:54.460
They are remixing. These are not remixes of the changes of the non mixed,
2075
02:15:55.875 --> 02:15:58.375
coins. These are remixes of the mixed coins.
2076
02:16:02.114 --> 02:16:10.790
Yeah. I mean, I I yeah. I I understand that, but, you know, they are paying for it, and they are not, you know, the system is not set up a way that
2077
02:16:11.170 --> 02:16:16.364
which would make them to do this. I mean, they have the personal choices or they have, like, a higher target
2078
02:16:16.824 --> 02:16:19.645
because they listen to Matt to put it to 101
2079
02:16:20.264 --> 02:16:20.764
or,
2080
02:16:21.250 --> 02:16:27.670
you know, or they just feel more comfortable with more mixes. That's what it happens. It's it's not doesn't happen automatically. Right?
2081
02:16:28.005 --> 02:16:36.745
If I for example, if I if I put my coins in in in join market, right, if I'm a taker, I'm having a low time preference and I do
2082
02:16:37.630 --> 02:16:44.210
the mix days or or or running a tumbler with multiple multiple mix days in including transactions which are not creating state change.
2083
02:16:44.590 --> 02:16:45.090
And
2084
02:16:45.965 --> 02:16:46.465
then
2085
02:16:46.845 --> 02:16:50.944
either because I've I'm in rush, I need to spend somewhere
2086
02:16:51.885 --> 02:16:53.585
or I leave
2087
02:16:54.141 --> 02:17:01.440
my coins in there and continue as a maker and alternate these rules. And as a maker, I'm not paying anything, but still improving
2088
02:17:02.176 --> 02:17:04.995
the anonymity set of my coins. Right?
2089
02:17:06.096 --> 02:17:06.995
So how is
2090
02:17:07.775 --> 02:17:11.315
that that is just so much better to me that I wouldn't even think of
2091
02:17:11.971 --> 02:17:13.030
not using
2092
02:17:14.370 --> 02:17:16.070
the chance of free remixing.
2093
02:17:16.530 --> 02:17:19.110
And to be honest, this is the same with if you are entered
2094
02:17:19.846 --> 02:17:20.346
and
2095
02:17:20.886 --> 02:17:29.145
do pay pay the fees to enter. You will just leave it as long as your, you know, time allows or you are comfortable with having your funds in.
2096
02:17:30.390 --> 02:17:32.490
So when you say it's not incentivized,
2097
02:17:32.950 --> 02:17:33.850
do you mean
2098
02:17:35.029 --> 02:17:39.130
the default is different or there is no financial incentive?
2099
02:17:40.535 --> 02:17:46.395
There is a counter incentive incentive. Right? Because you need to pay for it to continue.
2100
02:17:47.310 --> 02:17:50.130
So, you know, it's cheaper for you to not continue.
2101
02:17:51.390 --> 02:17:53.890
It's cheaper than mixing
2102
02:17:54.670 --> 02:17:55.970
non mixed coins.
2103
02:17:58.815 --> 02:18:01.555
Do do you see how? I see that. Yeah.
2104
02:18:02.095 --> 02:18:02.815
But that doesn't
2105
02:18:03.510 --> 02:18:07.370
I mean, yeah. Yeah. That's that I understand that it's true, but also,
2106
02:18:08.630 --> 02:18:16.755
I want to mix my non mixed coins more than the mixed ones. So, I mean, you know, that doesn't matter really. This is about
2107
02:18:17.534 --> 02:18:18.835
if I want to increase
2108
02:18:19.375 --> 02:18:20.994
the anonymity set or the,
2109
02:18:21.534 --> 02:18:22.274
kind of
2110
02:18:23.780 --> 02:18:27.080
darkness or, like, modeled around my coins more.
2111
02:18:29.301 --> 02:18:31.185
And I do You you want to
2112
02:18:31.904 --> 02:18:36.645
what do you want to incentivize? Mixing non mixed coins or mixing mixed coins?
2113
02:18:37.665 --> 02:18:41.120
No. It's clear that mixing non mixed coins, it does
2114
02:18:41.580 --> 02:18:43.359
cost a fee. But then
2115
02:18:45.580 --> 02:18:49.359
you you see that's how the other implementations are set up in a way that
2116
02:18:50.256 --> 02:18:51.235
you can continue
2117
02:18:51.615 --> 02:18:53.235
mixing without paying.
2118
02:18:54.735 --> 02:18:56.035
So you would do it.
2119
02:18:58.761 --> 02:18:59.261
Okay.
2120
02:19:01.320 --> 02:19:01.820
Yes.
2121
02:19:04.895 --> 02:19:07.395
Yeah. I I I I I see that. Definitely.
2122
02:19:07.855 --> 02:19:09.476
So you can continue
2123
02:19:09.855 --> 02:19:10.915
mixing without
2124
02:19:11.910 --> 02:19:12.410
paying
2125
02:19:13.029 --> 02:19:15.770
while other people are paying for it. Right?
2126
02:19:17.350 --> 02:19:17.850
Yeah.
2127
02:19:19.305 --> 02:19:23.405
So I I think it's it's not a good idea to to not
2128
02:19:25.065 --> 02:19:26.765
let to to not
2129
02:19:27.311 --> 02:19:28.290
do the people
2130
02:19:30.190 --> 02:19:33.170
to to not make the people pay the network fees
2131
02:19:33.950 --> 02:19:35.730
for various reasons.
2132
02:19:36.476 --> 02:19:39.215
On the other hand so if the suggestion
2133
02:19:39.516 --> 02:19:40.016
is,
2134
02:19:41.275 --> 02:19:42.895
should the coordinator
2135
02:19:45.091 --> 02:19:45.591
somehow
2136
02:19:46.770 --> 02:19:47.270
prefer
2137
02:19:47.891 --> 02:19:50.790
or not ask anything from
2138
02:19:52.025 --> 02:19:52.525
remixers,
2139
02:19:53.465 --> 02:19:56.125
then I think that's a that's a good suggestion.
2140
02:19:56.745 --> 02:19:57.245
Sure.
2141
02:19:57.625 --> 02:19:59.965
If if that's what you guys mean.
2142
02:20:00.580 --> 02:20:04.200
Yeah. That would be because that's that that is a benefit from both
2143
02:20:05.220 --> 02:20:10.120
to it's it's beneficial to participate, to remix for both the ones who are remixing
2144
02:20:11.185 --> 02:20:14.564
and and also the new entrants. Right? Because they have a higher
2145
02:20:14.944 --> 02:20:16.005
anonymity set.
2146
02:20:16.944 --> 02:20:20.400
So it would make sense to pay for it as a new
2147
02:20:23.580 --> 02:20:25.680
entrant. And that payment can
2148
02:20:26.060 --> 02:20:27.280
incentivize the
2149
02:20:28.226 --> 02:20:35.205
people who are just there for the privacy. And now the question is if they take their coins out or stop the the wallet
2150
02:20:35.665 --> 02:20:36.165
or,
2151
02:20:36.865 --> 02:20:39.189
just hang hang around a bit longer
2152
02:20:39.649 --> 02:20:40.949
to gain more privacy.
2153
02:20:44.290 --> 02:20:49.495
Sure. But, you know, someone has to pay the network fees, and I don't think it should be
2154
02:20:50.676 --> 02:20:51.415
I think
2155
02:20:51.716 --> 02:20:55.470
whoever uses the block space should pay the network fees,
2156
02:21:00.170 --> 02:21:02.270
which is the long term bottleneck.
2157
02:21:02.865 --> 02:21:11.525
Right? I I think what Open Arms is trying to get to and is is is what I'm trying to get to is that do we not agree that these tools
2158
02:21:12.110 --> 02:21:12.770
should encourage
2159
02:21:13.150 --> 02:21:13.650
remixing
2160
02:21:14.190 --> 02:21:15.970
based on their structure
2161
02:21:16.350 --> 02:21:17.330
and their defaults?
2162
02:21:22.255 --> 02:21:26.676
I'm not sure about it. I I think it's very
2163
02:21:27.375 --> 02:21:27.875
expensive
2164
02:21:28.255 --> 02:21:29.075
to remix.
2165
02:21:29.770 --> 02:21:32.190
I think the people who would like to
2166
02:21:32.570 --> 02:21:34.190
remix a lot have
2167
02:21:34.971 --> 02:21:38.190
a very specific reason to do that. So
2168
02:21:39.476 --> 02:21:42.136
what should be the default? This should be
2169
02:21:42.755 --> 02:21:43.575
the default
2170
02:21:44.355 --> 02:21:46.695
to to normal users. Right?
2171
02:21:48.640 --> 02:21:52.420
If if I used, which I did, if I used Wasabi in 2019
2172
02:21:53.600 --> 02:21:56.420
and I used the default and I got a 51 in onset,
2173
02:21:57.195 --> 02:22:02.734
Right? And it stopped automatically based on the default because I didn't change anything. I just trusted the default.
2174
02:22:03.115 --> 02:22:07.410
Got my nice 51. I got my badge. Got the green check on it,
2175
02:22:08.109 --> 02:22:12.529
and it just sit there. It just it's it's sat in my Wasabi Wallet. I haven't moved it.
2176
02:22:13.346 --> 02:22:18.405
What do we think the Anand set is today? Significantly less than 51. Do we agree?
2177
02:22:20.226 --> 02:22:21.365
No. Yes.
2178
02:22:21.745 --> 02:22:22.245
No.
2179
02:22:24.650 --> 02:22:25.710
Okay. So
2180
02:22:26.490 --> 02:22:27.150
it is
2181
02:22:28.091 --> 02:22:30.830
less because other people are doing
2182
02:22:31.135 --> 02:22:33.074
things that makes your UTX
2183
02:22:34.814 --> 02:22:37.635
more likely to coming from the source where
2184
02:22:38.360 --> 02:22:40.780
you put it in from. Right?
2185
02:22:44.520 --> 02:22:45.500
Yeah. Yeah. It's
2186
02:22:45.880 --> 02:22:47.101
an elimination process.
2187
02:22:47.415 --> 02:22:48.155
So as people
2188
02:22:49.015 --> 02:22:52.395
are coming out as or a doxing, going to KVIC services,
2189
02:22:52.935 --> 02:22:53.595
they do
2190
02:22:54.215 --> 02:22:54.715
identify
2191
02:22:55.110 --> 02:23:00.650
themselves. So so if there are 50 people and 49 have identified themselves, then, you know, you know who is the 5th thesis.
2192
02:23:01.590 --> 02:23:02.150
Okay. So
2193
02:23:02.766 --> 02:23:09.506
but on the other hand, and I think you guys talk about this a or you met talk about this a lot,
2194
02:23:10.939 --> 02:23:13.280
Other people are remixing
2195
02:23:13.820 --> 02:23:14.320
the
2196
02:23:15.100 --> 02:23:17.439
coins. Those are exactly
2197
02:23:18.506 --> 02:23:20.525
equal outputs to your coin.
2198
02:23:20.905 --> 02:23:29.710
And those can go to many different places too. Right? And those can be remixed too, and those can go to many different places. Now
2199
02:23:30.011 --> 02:23:31.950
I don't think this is
2200
02:23:32.650 --> 02:23:36.351
a good argument there. But if you look at
2201
02:23:37.645 --> 02:23:38.306
the the
2202
02:23:39.085 --> 02:23:39.745
the academic
2203
02:23:40.525 --> 02:23:42.625
terminology for anonymity set,
2204
02:23:42.926 --> 02:23:50.011
then the anonymity set is would be huge, like 1,000 or I don't know how much, but huge because
2205
02:23:51.511 --> 02:23:54.891
exact same coins that could be yours go to
2206
02:23:55.415 --> 02:23:57.515
other places in the coin join.
2207
02:23:58.375 --> 02:23:59.435
Now this
2208
02:24:00.135 --> 02:24:03.354
this is where where where we should bring in probabilities,
2209
02:24:03.655 --> 02:24:04.470
right, that it's
2210
02:24:04.950 --> 02:24:05.450
unlikely.
2211
02:24:06.390 --> 02:24:09.370
But, if if you take the anonymity set
2212
02:24:10.149 --> 02:24:14.556
from an academic point of view, then it can be a lot more
2213
02:24:14.936 --> 02:24:16.556
because of future mixes.
2214
02:24:23.790 --> 02:24:26.690
I mean, I I I agree that remixing helps.
2215
02:24:27.125 --> 02:24:30.185
We just lost Open Arms. Hopefully, he'll join back in.
2216
02:24:30.564 --> 02:24:32.904
I I agree that remixing helps. I just
2217
02:24:33.364 --> 02:24:35.145
I just I wish it was incentivized,
2218
02:24:36.520 --> 02:24:37.899
rather than discouraged,
2219
02:24:39.080 --> 02:24:39.899
so that
2220
02:24:40.680 --> 02:24:43.819
that that would be more likely to be the case rather than
2221
02:24:44.485 --> 02:24:45.625
having to just
2222
02:24:47.365 --> 02:24:49.225
hope hope that people do it.
2223
02:24:51.260 --> 02:24:53.520
I I just wanna be absolutely clear here,
2224
02:24:55.180 --> 02:24:57.359
that I appreciate all the work you put in
2225
02:24:58.935 --> 02:25:07.515
to this very important topic as, as as the one of the I mean, it's a topic that I've dedicated a a significant portion of my life to.
2226
02:25:08.061 --> 02:25:09.920
So I I do absolutely appreciate,
2227
02:25:10.780 --> 02:25:13.600
all the work you and the rest of the Wasabi devs have done.
2228
02:25:14.700 --> 02:25:18.154
My goal ultimately is I just want these tools to be better.
2229
02:25:18.534 --> 02:25:19.835
I I think they're
2230
02:25:20.534 --> 02:25:21.515
they're not perfect.
2231
02:25:21.975 --> 02:25:24.190
I don't think this should be a controversial thing,
2232
02:25:25.230 --> 02:25:26.370
that they're not perfect.
2233
02:25:29.230 --> 02:25:30.290
Yeah. That's definitely
2234
02:25:30.671 --> 02:25:35.125
you know, like, when I when I wanted to go into the details of the coordinator,
2235
02:25:36.785 --> 02:25:37.285
fee,
2236
02:25:39.079 --> 02:25:40.140
economic incentives
2237
02:25:40.600 --> 02:25:42.060
to part of participation.
2238
02:25:42.680 --> 02:25:47.579
I I didn't try to trap you. Right? Like, it's a nuance topic, and and,
2239
02:25:47.895 --> 02:25:48.716
you know, I
2240
02:25:49.256 --> 02:25:52.075
I didn't think that much of it
2241
02:25:53.016 --> 02:25:53.516
previously.
2242
02:25:54.615 --> 02:25:55.115
But
2243
02:25:55.790 --> 02:25:57.470
now that that that,
2244
02:25:57.950 --> 02:25:58.450
this
2245
02:25:58.990 --> 02:26:04.370
this debate was coming up, I actually sit down and did the calculations, and I got results.
2246
02:26:04.875 --> 02:26:05.375
And
2247
02:26:06.635 --> 02:26:08.975
and I I I don't know. I mean
2248
02:26:10.235 --> 02:26:13.375
yeah. So I I wasn't trying to trap you there.
2249
02:26:19.540 --> 02:26:21.160
Oh, we lost Open Arms again.
2250
02:26:22.325 --> 02:26:24.425
He's back. I I so I
2251
02:26:25.285 --> 02:26:27.465
Open Arms, you everything alright over there?
2252
02:26:29.520 --> 02:26:32.160
No. I I needed to switch to mobile. That's my,
2253
02:26:33.200 --> 02:26:33.700
ISP
2254
02:26:34.641 --> 02:26:38.900
has got me off, it seems. There we go. They're trying to stop this very important conversation.
2255
02:26:39.636 --> 02:26:40.136
Awesome.
2256
02:26:41.075 --> 02:26:43.895
You know, pump pump pump would do something like a
2257
02:26:44.516 --> 02:26:50.440
ridiculous tweet. Oh, they're trying to they're trying to censor Citadel Dispatch. Please like and subscribe.
2258
02:26:53.061 --> 02:26:54.020
Yeah. I I I
2259
02:26:56.075 --> 02:27:02.175
look, I look forward to Wasabi 2 point o. I I I hope that there's there's an incentive to remix there.
2260
02:27:03.340 --> 02:27:06.960
I hope that users are encouraged to do it based on the the
2261
02:27:09.580 --> 02:27:11.280
the implementation and the defaults.
2262
02:27:12.936 --> 02:27:13.436
But,
2263
02:27:15.015 --> 02:27:19.830
yeah, I I I don't know. I I don't I'm trying to keep this conversation as actionable
2264
02:27:20.950 --> 02:27:21.450
possible,
2265
02:27:22.230 --> 02:27:23.370
and I feel like
2266
02:27:23.750 --> 02:27:26.650
maybe we've hit, like, kind of a wall here.
2267
02:27:27.830 --> 02:27:29.370
I do appreciate the insight.
2268
02:27:30.255 --> 02:27:31.315
I I guess
2269
02:27:33.455 --> 02:27:35.795
I don't know. Should we should we move on to
2270
02:27:37.510 --> 02:27:40.570
to another topic, or what are you guys thinking here?
2271
02:27:42.550 --> 02:27:47.625
So so I I think I just I just don't guide you through
2272
02:27:48.006 --> 02:27:53.285
of my calculations, but maybe I I it's it's important that to say
2273
02:27:54.150 --> 02:27:56.891
to just just to say my conclusions because
2274
02:27:57.670 --> 02:27:58.170
is
2275
02:27:58.630 --> 02:28:00.650
it is there a fee incentive
2276
02:28:01.110 --> 02:28:03.450
for the Wasabi coordinator to participate?
2277
02:28:05.415 --> 02:28:05.915
Yes.
2278
02:28:06.694 --> 02:28:07.194
And
2279
02:28:07.734 --> 02:28:09.755
it is definitely a problem.
2280
02:28:10.215 --> 02:28:10.715
However,
2281
02:28:11.095 --> 02:28:13.995
I don't think this leads to severe risk.
2282
02:28:14.680 --> 02:28:15.180
And
2283
02:28:15.880 --> 02:28:20.940
yeah. Never mind. And I think I could even prove that there is no
2284
02:28:21.676 --> 02:28:24.176
such civil attack on on Wasabi.
2285
02:28:24.955 --> 02:28:32.860
And, you know, maybe maybe maybe the most important thing is that why so if there is this fee incentive, why aren't we changing it?
2286
02:28:33.560 --> 02:28:37.260
Maybe that's that's what you are more most curious about.
2287
02:28:37.785 --> 02:28:38.285
It's
2288
02:28:38.745 --> 02:28:39.965
that, you know,
2289
02:28:40.505 --> 02:28:41.485
how the fees
2290
02:28:41.865 --> 02:28:42.765
are being,
2291
02:28:43.945 --> 02:28:46.285
collected and paid out is the
2292
02:28:46.931 --> 02:28:48.391
most most fundamental
2293
02:28:48.931 --> 02:28:53.671
business agreement that we have with our users and, you know, unilaterally
2294
02:28:54.051 --> 02:28:55.431
changing it without
2295
02:28:56.346 --> 02:28:56.846
without
2296
02:28:58.346 --> 02:29:01.886
very, very good reason, like like for Sabi 2.2.
2297
02:29:02.665 --> 02:29:03.945
I I think it's
2298
02:29:04.426 --> 02:29:05.565
it it would not
2299
02:29:06.030 --> 02:29:07.810
be a good idea because,
2300
02:29:08.990 --> 02:29:13.960
like, that's what that's that's our most fundamental agreement with our users. And,
2301
02:29:14.695 --> 02:29:17.354
and that's opens up a lot of problems.
2302
02:29:17.655 --> 02:29:18.314
You know?
2303
02:29:19.095 --> 02:29:23.435
Has the Wasabi team ever participated in their own Wasabi rounds?
2304
02:29:24.940 --> 02:29:26.480
We are mixing every
2305
02:29:27.101 --> 02:29:27.601
every
2306
02:29:28.220 --> 02:29:30.800
well, Evan, we are we are mixing the incomes. Yes.
2307
02:29:32.495 --> 02:29:34.835
So you're you're mixing the fee revenue?
2308
02:29:35.615 --> 02:29:36.515
Yes. Yes.
2309
02:29:40.300 --> 02:29:43.520
And that increases the user's fees every time you do that. Right?
2310
02:29:46.939 --> 02:29:48.560
Well, not significantly.
2311
02:29:49.100 --> 02:29:49.600
Right?
2312
02:29:53.725 --> 02:29:54.225
$0.16
2313
02:29:55.245 --> 02:29:58.545
per peer, and we are able to participate in,
2314
02:29:58.860 --> 02:30:01.200
I don't know, 5% of the mixes.
2315
02:30:02.860 --> 02:30:04.240
We we are not.
2316
02:30:05.020 --> 02:30:05.511
This is
2317
02:30:06.455 --> 02:30:08.955
you know, we are a participant in the mix.
2318
02:30:09.735 --> 02:30:11.435
It's it's not a coordinator
2319
02:30:11.895 --> 02:30:12.795
civil attack,
2320
02:30:13.575 --> 02:30:14.075
one
2321
02:30:16.400 --> 02:30:19.061
jumping in with a single user
2322
02:30:19.681 --> 02:30:20.580
for 5%
2323
02:30:20.881 --> 02:30:21.780
of the mixes.
2324
02:30:22.575 --> 02:30:24.275
Right? Do do you do you
2325
02:30:24.815 --> 02:30:26.195
do you agree with that,
2326
02:30:26.575 --> 02:30:29.475
or or do you think we should not use the
2327
02:30:30.461 --> 02:30:34.221
the Wasabi service at all? I'm just trying to make a point,
2328
02:30:34.620 --> 02:30:39.425
specifically. But, I mean, I I don't think the word Sybil implies a motive. Like, I don't think,
2329
02:30:39.745 --> 02:30:41.604
I I think you could be a good actor
2330
02:30:42.145 --> 02:30:43.365
and still be sibling.
2331
02:30:43.905 --> 02:30:47.604
Do we agree on that? Like, a civil attack a a a a civil is a very
2332
02:30:48.010 --> 02:30:50.830
is a is a very objective term. Right? It's just,
2333
02:30:51.689 --> 02:30:52.430
you're participating
2334
02:30:53.130 --> 02:30:59.185
in in something, and you're reducing the an onset because you know your own participation. Right?
2335
02:31:00.685 --> 02:31:03.744
It implies that it's an auto co nonlinearity set
2336
02:31:04.120 --> 02:31:06.620
in in in the context of coin joins. Right?
2337
02:31:09.479 --> 02:31:15.335
It implies that it's an attack on privacy. Sorry. Not anonymity set. I don't know why I said that. It's not a concurrency.
2338
02:31:15.795 --> 02:31:17.335
That that would be severe.
2339
02:31:18.596 --> 02:31:21.511
But you could be you could be a good actor and you could be inadvertently
2340
02:31:22.450 --> 02:31:22.950
sibling.
2341
02:31:24.370 --> 02:31:30.150
Do we not like, like, is this not a thing? Like, if if if I'm running 5 clients,
2342
02:31:30.515 --> 02:31:37.975
but I have no intention of deanonymizing people, I'm still, like, 5 concurrent clients, and I'm joining a a a round
2343
02:31:38.380 --> 02:31:42.080
under the auspices that is 5 separate people, but it's really just me.
2344
02:31:42.540 --> 02:31:43.600
That's a civil
2345
02:31:43.979 --> 02:31:46.880
regardless of the fact that I'm trying to deanonymize people. Right?
2346
02:31:48.755 --> 02:31:52.215
You could say that it's a civil, but the
2347
02:31:53.475 --> 02:31:54.375
the consequences
2348
02:31:55.074 --> 02:31:58.310
are not that anyone's privacy would meaningfully
2349
02:31:59.489 --> 02:32:00.950
be hurt by that.
2350
02:32:04.245 --> 02:32:08.425
So so if you want to do a real civil attack, right, that's 10,000
2351
02:32:08.805 --> 02:32:13.680
fresh Bitcoin monthly. You would have to have that much money for Ria Sibilata.
2352
02:32:14.380 --> 02:32:14.880
Assuming
2353
02:32:15.260 --> 02:32:17.200
Ria Sibilata already happening,
2354
02:32:17.740 --> 02:32:18.240
then
2355
02:32:18.860 --> 02:32:21.520
you are you have you are bringing in 9,000
2356
02:32:22.215 --> 02:32:23.515
Fresh Bitcoins monthly,
2357
02:32:24.535 --> 02:32:28.154
assuming that it's already happening and de anonymizing users,
2358
02:32:30.030 --> 02:32:30.530
unless
2359
02:32:31.630 --> 02:32:32.290
you are
2360
02:32:33.150 --> 02:32:33.650
remixing
2361
02:32:34.431 --> 02:32:35.891
all the time. Right?
2362
02:32:38.545 --> 02:32:46.720
Because if you're remixing all the time, then you don't have to bring 10,000 Fresh Bitcoins monthly. It's okay to look at them the daily volume,
2363
02:32:47.819 --> 02:32:48.479
which is
2364
02:32:49.340 --> 02:32:51.680
which is 300 Bitcoins. So
2365
02:32:52.125 --> 02:32:52.865
from 300
2366
02:32:53.404 --> 02:32:53.904
Bitcoin,
2367
02:32:54.925 --> 02:32:55.745
you can
2368
02:32:57.005 --> 02:32:57.505
civil
2369
02:32:58.365 --> 02:32:58.865
Wasabi
2370
02:33:00.210 --> 02:33:02.930
if you are the kind of the only one who is
2371
02:33:05.330 --> 02:33:06.470
so but
2372
02:33:07.145 --> 02:33:11.886
the problem there is that then you should see very high remixed numbers, like
2373
02:33:12.665 --> 02:33:13.165
95%
2374
02:33:14.346 --> 02:33:17.631
or something crazy like that, but you do not.
2375
02:33:19.051 --> 02:33:23.150
So the the thing here is that the civil attack is actually noticeable
2376
02:33:24.155 --> 02:33:32.360
unless the user quoting you keep quoting this 25% number. That 25% remix number is what a a a civil attack would look like.
2377
02:33:34.200 --> 02:33:34.700
Right?
2378
02:33:35.160 --> 02:33:36.061
So if
2379
02:33:37.721 --> 02:33:40.141
if less people are remixing, then,
2380
02:33:41.125 --> 02:33:41.625
sorry,
2381
02:33:42.085 --> 02:33:43.064
if the
2382
02:33:43.604 --> 02:33:47.145
the remix number is not very close to a 100%,
2383
02:33:47.604 --> 02:33:49.385
then you must match
2384
02:33:51.220 --> 02:33:56.119
the the fresh Bitcoins coming to the mix in order to make it look like,
2385
02:33:56.659 --> 02:33:57.960
you know, no one is
2386
02:33:58.855 --> 02:34:01.275
no one is is is is doing anything.
2387
02:34:05.096 --> 02:34:07.756
So unless unless someone has,
2388
02:34:08.840 --> 02:34:09.739
well, 10,000
2389
02:34:10.359 --> 02:34:10.859
Bitcoin
2390
02:34:11.319 --> 02:34:14.859
new Bitcoins monthly, so that's a 100,000 yearly,
2391
02:34:15.640 --> 02:34:16.939
then there is
2392
02:34:17.335 --> 02:34:19.975
no remix except if the remix numbers are
2393
02:34:20.455 --> 02:34:24.875
sorry. Then there is no c b l, except if the remix numbers are high.
2394
02:34:25.311 --> 02:34:31.971
Because in that case, the daily volume would be enough because the confirmation target is about a day.
2395
02:34:32.596 --> 02:34:34.936
So that's you can't use the coins.
2396
02:34:35.395 --> 02:34:36.455
The main reason
2397
02:34:37.075 --> 02:34:43.449
the main reason the coin join fee exists, not the network fee, the coin joint fee exists, is for Sybil resistance. Correct?
2398
02:34:45.910 --> 02:34:50.295
No. No. No. No. That that's that's for business purposes. Right?
2399
02:34:50.755 --> 02:34:52.375
The CB resistance is,
2400
02:34:53.075 --> 02:34:57.109
hopefully coming from the network fees and the the initial requirements.
2401
02:34:57.970 --> 02:35:02.390
So you think a coordinated coin joint implementation that has no coin joint fee, period,
2402
02:35:03.409 --> 02:35:03.909
is
2403
02:35:04.370 --> 02:35:05.270
sybil resistant?
2404
02:35:07.205 --> 02:35:08.346
I think
2405
02:35:08.966 --> 02:35:09.466
the
2406
02:35:10.886 --> 02:35:11.945
doing civils
2407
02:35:12.565 --> 02:35:13.065
on
2408
02:35:13.470 --> 02:35:17.729
on coin joints without coordinator fees are still very expensive.
2409
02:35:22.805 --> 02:35:24.985
I mean, I think it will be in the future,
2410
02:35:25.605 --> 02:35:28.425
but they they haven't really been historically. But
2411
02:35:30.630 --> 02:35:32.569
I I I I think I think
2412
02:35:33.109 --> 02:35:36.010
I think developers of CoinJoin implementations
2413
02:35:36.630 --> 02:35:38.490
should try and make it so
2414
02:35:39.125 --> 02:35:49.610
a a bad actor has to pay a a bad actor who's attempting to sybil has to pay more money than a good actor, an honest actor that is just attempting to gain privacy. Do we agree on
2415
02:35:50.830 --> 02:35:51.330
this?
2416
02:35:52.870 --> 02:35:56.410
How do you know who is bad actor and who is honest actor?
2417
02:35:56.715 --> 02:35:58.895
I I think you can set up an implementation
2418
02:35:59.274 --> 02:36:01.215
so that if if,
2419
02:36:02.795 --> 02:36:06.130
if you're attempting to sybil, it costs you more money. If
2420
02:36:10.350 --> 02:36:15.615
if let let's say, hypothetically, it was possible. Would you agree that that is a better situation to be in?
2421
02:36:17.056 --> 02:36:17.556
So,
2422
02:36:18.415 --> 02:36:23.875
I'm I'm sorry, but the point of Sibyl Attack is that make yourself look alike than other
2423
02:36:24.730 --> 02:36:25.710
honest peers.
2424
02:36:26.410 --> 02:36:27.310
So that's
2425
02:36:27.850 --> 02:36:28.750
that's like
2426
02:36:29.530 --> 02:36:33.056
there is a cognitive dissonance there. Right? Because if you can differentiate
2427
02:36:33.516 --> 02:36:35.695
between civil and non civil, then
2428
02:36:36.395 --> 02:36:36.895
then
2429
02:36:37.516 --> 02:36:40.550
then then you know that there is a single attack.
2430
02:36:40.930 --> 02:36:47.189
You know what I mean? Or am I Well, what what if you what if you made it what if you made it so if a user who
2431
02:36:47.806 --> 02:36:49.346
joined a coin join round,
2432
02:36:50.525 --> 02:36:51.985
with multiple UTXOs,
2433
02:36:53.245 --> 02:36:55.505
that were randomly selected to join
2434
02:36:56.011 --> 02:37:06.195
fall a subsequent route paid a smaller fee than someone who joined with concurrent implement you know, instances. They're running a bunch of instances at the same time,
2435
02:37:07.375 --> 02:37:12.596
and and they're they're practicing Sybil type behavior rather than a user who's
2436
02:37:12.971 --> 02:37:14.990
who's, you know, adding their
2437
02:37:15.770 --> 02:37:18.270
a a majority of their UTXOs at the same time.
2438
02:37:19.530 --> 02:37:21.335
Is that a better situation to be in?
2439
02:37:21.815 --> 02:37:24.715
So sorry. Let me repeat that. So a user
2440
02:37:26.215 --> 02:37:26.375
who
2441
02:37:27.495 --> 02:37:29.255
so so you could look at the
2442
02:37:30.790 --> 02:37:31.850
what kind of UTXOs
2443
02:37:32.229 --> 02:37:38.090
are coming in in in the mixes and you know that a user who is joining with multiple UTXOs.
2444
02:37:42.805 --> 02:37:51.800
Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm I'm lost. So a civil attack a civil attack is when an attacker comes in and tries to be the majority of the participants.
2445
02:37:52.340 --> 02:37:55.080
Right? And then tries to use tries to use,
2446
02:37:56.064 --> 02:37:57.045
process of elimination
2447
02:37:57.505 --> 02:38:03.444
to hurt the hurt the privacy of the other participants. Right? So if, let's say, at an extreme level,
2448
02:38:04.450 --> 02:38:08.229
a Sybil attacker comes in and they're 95 of the 100 inputs,
2449
02:38:09.250 --> 02:38:15.574
they can use that private knowledge that they're the 95 inputs to try and ruin the privacy of the remaining 5.
2450
02:38:16.835 --> 02:38:20.135
It would be hooved to me, it makes sense that
2451
02:38:20.540 --> 02:38:24.880
someone that that if you're working on trying to create a a coin joint tool,
2452
02:38:25.260 --> 02:38:26.720
you should try and make
2453
02:38:27.100 --> 02:38:27.600
that
2454
02:38:28.585 --> 02:38:29.885
that scenario
2455
02:38:30.425 --> 02:38:31.325
more expensive
2456
02:38:31.864 --> 02:38:37.165
than a scenario where the average user is coming in and they just want privacy and they just wanna be one input.
2457
02:38:37.810 --> 02:38:41.510
Right? Like like, that should be the way these systems are set up.
2458
02:38:42.690 --> 02:38:45.110
It's the number one attack that's used. Right?
2459
02:38:45.865 --> 02:38:48.045
Okay. So if I have a 100 Bitcoin,
2460
02:38:48.825 --> 02:38:49.325
then
2461
02:38:49.865 --> 02:38:53.484
what prevents me from breaking it down to
2462
02:38:54.024 --> 02:38:55.085
to small amounts?
2463
02:38:58.620 --> 02:39:00.640
That's the point though. My point is
2464
02:39:01.100 --> 02:39:01.600
is
2465
02:39:02.140 --> 02:39:02.640
in
2466
02:39:03.100 --> 02:39:03.600
Wasabi,
2467
02:39:03.979 --> 02:39:04.479
nothing.
2468
02:39:05.256 --> 02:39:07.355
With with Wasabi, if I'm running
2469
02:39:07.735 --> 02:39:09.756
if I'm running a 100 instances
2470
02:39:10.375 --> 02:39:11.995
that are mixing with each other,
2471
02:39:13.330 --> 02:39:18.070
I pay the same fee as if I'm running one instance and just running my coins through it.
2472
02:39:19.570 --> 02:39:21.110
It's the same exact fee
2473
02:39:22.145 --> 02:39:29.120
except for network fees, which I do agree add extra Sybil resistance when fees go up, but fees have barely gone up.
2474
02:39:30.080 --> 02:39:38.580
Well, you are paying coordinator fees after yourself too, like, after your peers. So but but yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. But Stowe is the honest user.
2475
02:39:38.995 --> 02:39:39.815
The same. Yeah.
2476
02:39:41.795 --> 02:39:43.495
Open arms. What's up over there?
2477
02:39:46.560 --> 02:39:50.500
Yeah. I I I don't feel that comfortable paying by
2478
02:39:50.880 --> 02:39:51.380
participants
2479
02:39:52.560 --> 02:39:54.740
in in this setup, but, you know,
2480
02:39:55.386 --> 02:39:58.445
I don't know if we can solve the, you know
2481
02:40:00.905 --> 02:40:03.325
yeah. You cannot guarantee the new entrants. Right?
2482
02:40:03.811 --> 02:40:07.030
I mean that that is that is the the question because
2483
02:40:07.570 --> 02:40:08.390
as 6102
2484
02:40:08.690 --> 02:40:12.950
have, pointed it out, if we let people remix free
2485
02:40:13.255 --> 02:40:13.755
then
2486
02:40:15.255 --> 02:40:21.750
and that's what Nupa is saying as well, then the possible simple attack will become much more cheap. Right?
2487
02:40:22.290 --> 02:40:23.430
So unless
2488
02:40:24.290 --> 02:40:24.950
you would
2489
02:40:26.050 --> 02:40:26.550
have
2490
02:40:27.250 --> 02:40:29.830
a guarantee in every round that
2491
02:40:30.535 --> 02:40:32.555
the new participants need to be
2492
02:40:33.255 --> 02:40:34.635
a set percentage,
2493
02:40:35.015 --> 02:40:37.115
and then the remix
2494
02:40:37.814 --> 02:40:39.035
participants are
2495
02:40:40.010 --> 02:40:40.990
chosen randomly.
2496
02:40:41.450 --> 02:40:44.510
But, you know, that's would be pretty much applying
2497
02:40:45.689 --> 02:40:50.005
another implementation to a service. So that's not the solution, I guess.
2498
02:40:52.065 --> 02:40:55.205
So what you may be able to do is to
2499
02:40:55.905 --> 02:40:56.405
to
2500
02:40:57.290 --> 02:41:00.989
the if the coordinator has the whole blockchain and can work
2501
02:41:01.529 --> 02:41:06.510
on that properly, then you should be able to make sure that
2502
02:41:08.284 --> 02:41:13.984
the thing the inputs that you accept into the coin joints are as disjointed
2503
02:41:14.524 --> 02:41:16.145
on chain as possible.
2504
02:41:17.710 --> 02:41:21.650
But, yeah, I mean, you do some some centralized mixing, and
2505
02:41:22.110 --> 02:41:23.810
that will break it. I I
2506
02:41:24.189 --> 02:41:25.170
maybe not.
2507
02:41:25.955 --> 02:41:29.655
I I I I don't I I don't know. Maybe I'm just going off tangent here.
2508
02:41:36.010 --> 02:41:37.869
But but but, I mean,
2509
02:41:38.329 --> 02:41:39.630
it it doesn't
2510
02:41:40.729 --> 02:41:43.069
really matter that much because
2511
02:41:44.955 --> 02:41:46.255
sibling is expensive
2512
02:41:46.875 --> 02:41:47.615
even in
2513
02:41:48.075 --> 02:41:48.735
in non
2514
02:41:50.635 --> 02:41:51.855
even in in scenarios
2515
02:41:52.235 --> 02:41:58.330
when when no one is trying to to prevent them, the volume is the
2516
02:41:59.109 --> 02:41:59.609
main
2517
02:42:00.149 --> 02:42:01.290
obstacle there
2518
02:42:01.846 --> 02:42:09.466
that you have to match the the honest users' bitcoins with yours, and that's how you can can get the,
2519
02:42:09.790 --> 02:42:10.770
you know, the anonymize
2520
02:42:11.150 --> 02:42:15.170
them. If you can't match the honest users' Bitcoins, then
2521
02:42:15.790 --> 02:42:17.490
I don't know. It's
2522
02:42:18.785 --> 02:42:19.686
it's got messy.
2523
02:42:24.306 --> 02:42:26.165
I mean, except for the coordinator.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:45 PM
Duration: 11734.596
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.540
2
00:00:08.394 --> 00:00:10.975
it's tough as a to use for transactions.
3
00:00:11.675 --> 00:00:14.815
But then he says it's not really a store of value
4
00:00:15.330 --> 00:00:18.869
and then says it's essentially a substitute for gold.
5
00:00:20.290 --> 00:00:21.990
So the the 4000,
6
00:00:22.450 --> 00:00:22.950
5000
7
00:00:23.330 --> 00:00:25.895
year store of value that we know
8
00:00:26.275 --> 00:00:27.735
historically is gold.
9
00:00:28.115 --> 00:00:38.760
And he just said it's like gold, but it's not a store value. So does he not think gold is a store of value? And with what the Fed's doing right now is a dollar, is he really making the case that that's a store of value?
10
00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:40.280
11
00:00:40.685 --> 00:00:44.225
hey, Joe. You you're thinking about it exactly the right way. I mean, there's a lot to unpack
12
00:00:44.525 --> 00:00:55.490
there. So so, you know, first of all, it was a store of value. I would just say there's a reason people have flocked Bitcoin in the last year, right, which is something else happened in the last year. And that is that we increase the money supply
13
00:00:56.110 --> 00:00:56.930
by 40%.
14
00:00:57.765 --> 00:01:15.290
So when you do that in a world of supply and demand, it means that the dollar is at least a 40% less good store of value than it was a year ago, and and that is one of the reasons people look to Bitcoin. But, Joe, the point I really wanna make is the dollar may not actually be backed by anything. Obviously, we went off the gold standard in the Nixon administration,
15
00:01:16.015 --> 00:01:16.755
But cryptocurrencies
16
00:01:17.134 --> 00:01:18.835
actually are backed by something.
17
00:01:19.215 --> 00:01:34.500
They're backed by underlying networks. And what you're buying when you buy a crypto token, whether it's Bitcoin or anything else, is you're buying a piece of a financial network that's being built to transact all kinds of stuff. And the number of things that have gone on chain in the last 2 years
18
00:01:34.924 --> 00:01:38.545
is enormously high. That's why the cryptocurrency market today is almost a $2,000,000,000,000
19
00:01:39.085 --> 00:01:52.590
market. I believe in the wisdom of crowds, personally, and I think that there's kind of, like, forces of the future at work here and then forces of the status quo. I think the crowds are telling you that these networks are where finance is going in the future. I wanna be part of that.
20
00:02:31.735 --> 00:02:39.270
21
00:02:39.810 --> 00:02:40.310
15,
22
00:02:40.850 --> 00:02:45.590
the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, open source software, and privacy.
23
00:02:46.395 --> 00:02:47.694
I'm joined by
24
00:02:48.155 --> 00:02:50.974
a return guest and good friend, Open Arms,
25
00:02:53.420 --> 00:02:56.799
well known for his work towards making join market,
26
00:02:57.980 --> 00:03:00.879
more user friendly with his join inbox project,
27
00:03:01.980 --> 00:03:02.480
and
28
00:03:03.325 --> 00:03:06.704
No Para, who is the founder of Wasabi Wallet,
29
00:03:07.165 --> 00:03:09.665
one of the easiest to use CoinJoin implementations
30
00:03:09.965 --> 00:03:10.465
available.
31
00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:12.959
We look forward to discussing
32
00:03:13.260 --> 00:03:14.880
a very important topic today,
33
00:03:15.420 --> 00:03:16.080
in that
34
00:03:16.380 --> 00:03:19.840
Bitcoin privacy and using Bitcoin privately, why it's important,
35
00:03:20.405 --> 00:03:23.385
the current tools at our disposal, future tools at our disposal,
36
00:03:23.844 --> 00:03:26.424
and tangential discussions with that.
37
00:03:27.910 --> 00:03:31.770
I am aware that we usually come to you at 21 100 UTC.
38
00:03:32.150 --> 00:03:33.930
It is earlier today because
39
00:03:34.390 --> 00:03:38.635
of time zones and because this discussion is an important one, and we want to make it happen.
40
00:03:38.935 --> 00:03:41.515
So thank you to all the freaks who were able to make it,
41
00:03:42.055 --> 00:03:43.515
at this earlier time.
42
00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.340
If you're joining us through the audio feed,
43
00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.660
the Citadel dispatch can be
44
00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.100
viewed live on Twitch, Twitter, YouTube.
45
00:03:55.025 --> 00:04:01.045
Then after the fact, it goes to our podcast feeds, both the Ciel dispatch dedicated feed and the tales from the crib feed.
46
00:04:01.425 --> 00:04:06.370
So you might be listening to us there. Also, full archives without ads are posted,
47
00:04:07.150 --> 00:04:08.290
on citadel dispatch.com,
48
00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:13.010
both video and audio, hosted on Keybase and on Telegram.
49
00:04:14.015 --> 00:04:18.275
So with all that said, if you're joining us via audio, that clip out in the beginning,
50
00:04:19.215 --> 00:04:20.435
was Brian Brooks,
51
00:04:21.430 --> 00:04:24.570
who is, like, the former lead lawyer for Coinbase,
52
00:04:25.590 --> 00:04:30.410
and he was also the former controller of the currency talking to our boy Joe Kernan on CNBC,
53
00:04:32.535 --> 00:04:33.595
candidly about,
54
00:04:34.215 --> 00:04:39.675
Powell's our current Fed chair's statements regarding Bitcoin and and whether or not it's a store of value
55
00:04:40.190 --> 00:04:42.050
or, or or a money,
56
00:04:42.430 --> 00:04:50.915
and it's just I don't know. It's kinda funny that it's just it's just hit the mainstream news in that way, and and they just talk about it so candidly. They talk about 40% money supply printing,
57
00:04:51.535 --> 00:04:56.995
which used to be, like, things that people would talk about in, like, dark dark corners of the Internet, and now it's just on CNBC.
58
00:04:58.430 --> 00:05:02.770
Anyway, with all that said, I wanna thank the Freak's again for joining us live,
59
00:05:03.150 --> 00:05:06.849
and I wanna thank both Nopar and Open Arms for joining us for the discussion.
60
00:05:09.095 --> 00:05:13.034
I'd like to, you know I I figured we should start,
61
00:05:14.055 --> 00:05:15.675
with the discussion with why
62
00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:22.960
the Bitcoin privacy discussion is so important to Bitcoiners and why it should be important to Bitcoiners and why Freak should care about it.
63
00:05:23.535 --> 00:05:28.115
And with that said, let's start with you, Noepara. What do you think here? How's it going?
64
00:05:29.295 --> 00:05:33.760
65
00:05:34.220 --> 00:05:35.440
historic conversation.
66
00:05:37.580 --> 00:05:38.080
So
67
00:05:39.345 --> 00:05:41.125
I would like to talk a bit about
68
00:05:41.745 --> 00:05:42.805
Bitcoin privacy
69
00:05:43.105 --> 00:05:45.605
and and and and its importance.
70
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:49.940
And I thought maybe the best way
71
00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.620
to to communicate it is that I just present my my thesis on it that,
72
00:05:56.975 --> 00:05:57.955
basically operating
73
00:05:58.655 --> 00:06:01.555
based on that maybe during the last one
74
00:06:01.935 --> 00:06:02.835
past year.
75
00:06:03.695 --> 00:06:04.195
And
76
00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:08.970
and it all starts with the properties of good money,
77
00:06:09.350 --> 00:06:10.889
which I assume
78
00:06:11.270 --> 00:06:13.690
many people have heard about before.
79
00:06:14.845 --> 00:06:15.905
The divisibility,
80
00:06:16.365 --> 00:06:17.505
portability, fungibility,
81
00:06:17.965 --> 00:06:18.945
and so on,
82
00:06:19.725 --> 00:06:21.345
where Bitcoin brings
83
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scarcity
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to the table so no one can print more.
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And
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and
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the
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only
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remaining problems left in Bitcoin is
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acceptability,
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portability,
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and fungibility.
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Acceptability
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is an easy one because it's it's taking care of itself. If we improve the other properties of money,
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then then acceptability is going to take care of itself.
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Portability
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is something that Bitcoin is
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or or any other cryptocurrency,
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to my knowledge,
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lacks
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a lot, and that's a very important topic to work on. However, there is a there is an army of open source developer
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working on portability.
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And that leaves us with with fungibility,
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which is,
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I suppose, for the sake of this conversation, we can say fungibility, privacy, and anonymity are the same things in in this
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in this context, but we might elaborate on that later.
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And, you know, fungibility
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is not
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something that many people
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dare to to work on,
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especially on the implementation
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side
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because
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because there
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are
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large
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forces and interests
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trying to
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to control
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the citizens
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of
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every word, and one of the tools of control is must surveillance.
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And
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so it would not be a good
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idea to
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to let
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a private,
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anonymous,
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fungible
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currency
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had to be released to the world,
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but,
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you know, this is going to happen.
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It may happen with Bitcoin. It may happen with Monero. It may may happen with other
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alternative cryptocurrencies.
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But my guess is and I suppose
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everyone else's guess here is the same that Bitcoin is
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going to take over the world because
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people don't
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care that much about fungibility.
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You know, fungibility, privacy is something
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that matters until
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until it stop mattering.
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And
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and so
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so if Bitcoin takes over the world, then
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40 years from now, we will tell a very
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different story to our grandchildren.
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The if we
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we
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have Bitcoin
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privacy
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ready,
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then then without,
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without
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privacy in Bitcoin.
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So I I believe that's
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that's why fungibility
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may be the most important thing to to work on right now at this moment.
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don't appreciate
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in the Bitcoin circles is that this is larger than just Bitcoin.
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We're seeing,
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transgressions made by large governments and corporations around the world on people's privacy,
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regardless if they're a Bitcoiner.
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Bitcoin is a subset within that.
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If we expect it to be the money
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that
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that the world will run on, the the the future money of the world, then obviously, it's gonna become a bigger and bigger aspect of the private equation.
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And it's important that
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especially with something like Bitcoin where you have this open ledger that's we expect to exist forever,
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if if if we don't work on this soon,
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mistakes that are made today could come back to haunt people in the future. Those things are never you know, the the ledger will never change.
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So so if you make a mistake today, in 5 years, 10 years, it can come back to haunt you.
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Open Arms,
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you've dedicated a large portion of your time. I know you don't do this full time, and I have tons and tons of respect for the work you've done, towards trying to make Bitcoin more private in your work with joining Box.
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Where do you what is your perspective here? Why show the show the freaks why they should care about,
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using Bitcoin more privately and improving Bitcoin privacy guarantees, at least on the app level.
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And also,
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I mean, CoinJoin
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is is one thing. It's a very important and
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very efficient
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tool, but, I mean, limited in scale, but we'll talk about that probably.
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Also,
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I mean, I do approach privacy in from all the different angles,
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as as we do all from, you know, from the net network level to
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the
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base, Bitcoin level
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and the base layer level and also, you know, going on second layers like lightning and, you know, other,
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kind of solutions are
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are as important as well. So I'd like to use all the tools available
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and
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why it is so important because
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this is just
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so much different from what we had before. We we had a have a system for
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registering
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and surveilling
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transactions,
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which is made for
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a private banking system.
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And having
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a decentralized
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open public ledger,
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which everyone can read and use, it's just so completely different
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that
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it needs to be used differently. We need to be
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need to put emphasis on
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caring for our privacy because otherwise everything is just out in the open and you will be
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having a surveillance tool which has been never never seen before.
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And,
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obviously, you need to avoid exposing all your financial activity for your personal safety,
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but it's also important for your business or any other business for the
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essential for the operation of a free market.
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So you need to be able to
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only expose things which you choose to, which is which is the main
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kind of aim here that, you can prove everything, but you don't want to
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expose more than necessary.
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So, yeah, I mean, this is just my kind of
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I would like to work towards the future which I'd like to see
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rather than
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a dystopian
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Orwell 18
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1984 1, which could be as well as a reality if,
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you know, privacy would would be nonexistent.
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do you do you guys think there's a lot of comparisons here with Bitcoin privacy spending money privately to
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speaking privately, private speech, encryption?
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And this is transaction
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either it's a form of communication,
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financial transactions as well. So
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being able to communicate freely is
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essential for,
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you know, for a healthy life and for,
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the kind of function of the society or civilization.
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I agree with the premise,
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Open Arms. I I think that I I want to,
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I want to cover
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all sorts of tools we have available to us, not just CoinJoin on this conversation,
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and I we will. We will get to that.
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But before we do,
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I think,
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well, first of all, to any any new freaks that are here, if if you're watching live,
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the top price is the evil empire's Coinbase's price, and then the bottom is Bisq,
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which is why Bisq is
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is is not moving as frequently. It has way less volume than Coinbase.
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So, I mean, I I think a great place to start here is
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Nopara spent
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a good amount of time releasing Wasabi Wallet to the world,
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and
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I'm curious
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your perspective, Nopara.
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We know now you're working on Wasabi Wallet 2.0, and we will get to that. But before we do,
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with all these users using Wasabi,
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what what have you learned from that experience? What have you learned? What are the lessons that were learned from Wasabi that are that are hopefully being used going forward in terms of,
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Wasabi 2 point o development?
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So
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it it doesn't really connect that much to privacy,
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but it
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I I think this is the largest
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lesson I learned, or I'm
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still trying to learn or figure out how to think about that because,
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you know, I I started Wasabi alone in 2015, and then for 2 years, I pretty much worked alone with 1 or 2 people
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joined
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to the adventure for
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a shorter period of time.
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But then when when
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started to work
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with more
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and more people together,
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And I never worked in a big company
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before,
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and I don't know how things are
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are are taken care of in in the company. So,
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you know, I I came from this Bitcoin open source at all where everyone is
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is doing
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his or her best
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to the best of his or her ability.
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And
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and and and so
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so our hiring process was
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the it it was very simple. You know, we we give you
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money
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every month, and you do whatever
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you would like to do.
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And
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this led to us going to
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many, many different
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directions
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and
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not
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not going to
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a to
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a to a common
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goal,
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to not not targeting the same thing
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together.
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And
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I did not
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change it in a way that,
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that that's how how you would you would work in a normal company that
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management has the objectives, and that's how it it must happen.
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But what I figured
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maybe
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the best way to
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to to run a company
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you know, I have no idea, but the best way to run a company is to try to convince everyone to
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go towards the same
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goal
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and see what happens.
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And that's when,
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yeah, that's happened one and a half year, year ago, and and we'll see.
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So so so, yeah,
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basically, my my my largest learning
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experience is that when you let people do whatever they
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want without any inputs,
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they
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will do
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very good things,
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which microcosmically
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makes a lot of sense, but macrocosmically,
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it doesn't really.
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327
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on on mainnet? When
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did you do the first,
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coinjoin with it?
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331
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2018.
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333
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Yeah. It's Real ways ways more recent than that, doesn't it, Open Arms? Yeah. Yes. I mean, especially
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335
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basically the time I was
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starting to look into more deeply into,
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I mean, Bitcoin Bitcoin and Bitcoin privacy
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itself
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and started to contribute to project and and things and kind of was
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one of the one of the first advanced
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interface which I've which I started which I've started to use,
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you know, providing a very good coin control and just generally
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being able to
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just open it without
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and using it fairly privately from the network level
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without having a full node running yet at that time.
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So it it was certainly a change of,
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change of the way people were interacting with
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350
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all the node packages,
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you know, the Raspberry Blitz, Umbrel. I don't I wonder if Raspberry Blitz start. Like, I I don't think that was even a thing yet, right, in 2018.
352
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353
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spring of 2018, and I started contributing towards the end.
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It is pretty much as Lightning
355
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came to Mainnet,
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shortly after.
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358
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Raspberry Pi what's the other one?
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360
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Bitcoin and lightning,
361
00:20:41.515 --> 00:20:42.635
you know, running because,
362
00:20:43.035 --> 00:20:51.840
now there was an added incentive to run a node, not just, you know, spinning up Bitcoin Core on your desktop, but you wanted to have an online one for
363
00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:53.200
a dedicated
364
00:20:53.500 --> 00:20:56.000
hardware on Raspberry Pi to start with,
365
00:20:56.940 --> 00:20:59.485
to use to use a node to run a node,
366
00:20:59.945 --> 00:21:00.925
a lightning node,
367
00:21:01.705 --> 00:21:02.445
more specifically.
368
00:21:02.985 --> 00:21:04.925
369
00:21:06.190 --> 00:21:12.450
I mean, I appreciate the insight. I think a lot of what you answered my previous question about lessons learned come from
370
00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:20.995
the organization side, running such a a large, free open source project and a a for profit company that's, like, one and the same,
371
00:21:21.695 --> 00:21:23.155
which is actually really novel,
372
00:21:31.725 --> 00:21:34.625
coordinator and collect coin join fees and actually be quite profitable,
373
00:21:35.725 --> 00:21:36.625
is is,
374
00:21:37.404 --> 00:21:43.899
extremely novel. Historically, wallets have had very a lot of difficulty monetizing in an ethical way.
375
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:49.100
Usually, they end up adding fiat, KYC, on ramps, and stuff to try and get fees, which is obviously
376
00:21:49.605 --> 00:21:54.265
really poor incentive, if if you want a free open source project to be focused on privacy.
377
00:21:54.965 --> 00:21:58.505
But I guess the point of my question was more and maybe this is just because
378
00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:00.190
of my perspective.
379
00:22:02.010 --> 00:22:02.669
I mean,
380
00:22:03.289 --> 00:22:03.850
I was
381
00:22:05.370 --> 00:22:08.804
I'd already understood the importance of Bitcoin privacy,
382
00:22:10.385 --> 00:22:16.990
tools mostly because when I was an early Bitcoiner, I made a lot of fucking mistakes, and those mistakes exist on the Ledger.
383
00:22:17.450 --> 00:22:20.510
Like, I made those mistakes. I had no idea what the fuck I was doing,
384
00:22:21.290 --> 00:22:24.590
and they're there. They exist, and all these mistakes are
385
00:22:24.934 --> 00:22:26.235
are expanded even
386
00:22:27.335 --> 00:22:32.554
they're made much worse because of this creeping KYC that that we the KYC, know your customer,
387
00:22:32.950 --> 00:22:33.690
anti money laundering
388
00:22:34.310 --> 00:22:40.410
regulation where they require this really intimate exchanges require this really intimate private information
389
00:22:41.030 --> 00:22:42.330
that they store on you,
390
00:22:43.345 --> 00:22:48.005
that oftentimes gets leaked, hacked. We just had the largest KYC hack ever,
391
00:22:48.705 --> 00:22:53.580
happened, I think, yesterday or it came out yesterday or 2 days ago in India. It was like a 140,000,000
392
00:22:54.120 --> 00:22:54.620
people,
393
00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:57.320
had their intimate personal information leaked,
394
00:22:58.885 --> 00:23:04.025
and that's just gonna get worse and worse and worse. I I as we have more of our personal information online,
395
00:23:04.405 --> 00:23:05.385
it'll undoubtedly
396
00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:08.380
get hacked, sold, leaked
397
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.580
at some point in the future, aggregated and stored insecurely.
398
00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:13.420
So that exacerbates
399
00:23:13.885 --> 00:23:15.745
the Bitcoin privacy concerns,
400
00:23:16.205 --> 00:23:20.065
to me. But I guess I guess that's kinda long winded. My my perspective
401
00:23:20.445 --> 00:23:24.070
has been when Wasabi came out, you know, I was, like, very,
402
00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:29.670
outspoken. Anyone who's around at the time remembers I was a very outspoken Wasabi
403
00:23:30.884 --> 00:23:32.264
user and promoter.
404
00:23:33.284 --> 00:23:33.784
And
405
00:23:34.164 --> 00:23:35.705
I want I I realized,
406
00:23:36.404 --> 00:23:37.465
you know, these tools
407
00:23:38.510 --> 00:23:41.970
allow you the goal of these tools is to hide amongst the crowd.
408
00:23:42.830 --> 00:23:45.090
The the goal of these tools is
409
00:23:45.855 --> 00:23:53.715
is is is you need you need usage for them. You could have the best tool ever, but if there's only 10 people using it,
410
00:23:54.620 --> 00:24:01.120
it doesn't matter what kind of privacy gains you get because you the an attacker still knows you're one of 10 people.
411
00:24:01.765 --> 00:24:04.745
And so so usage is extremely important.
412
00:24:05.125 --> 00:24:08.265
Normalization is extremely important. Getting it up
413
00:24:08.620 --> 00:24:10.320
that getting those numbers up
414
00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:13.360
sooner rather than later is extremely important.
415
00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:16.159
And we exist in a space
416
00:24:16.700 --> 00:24:17.200
where
417
00:24:18.585 --> 00:24:20.765
the people we're up against it's an asymmetrical
418
00:24:21.625 --> 00:24:23.405
asymmetrical fight. The people we're up against
419
00:24:23.705 --> 00:24:28.240
are hiding in the shadows. They don't tell us what they know. They don't tell us what they're doing. They don't tell us,
420
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:38.905
the data they're aggregating on us, but everything we do is in the open. All free open source software development's in the open. The ledger's in the open. All of our activities are in the open.
421
00:24:39.605 --> 00:24:40.745
Education, promotion,
422
00:24:41.365 --> 00:24:49.690
usage, all this is in the open on our side, and the the attackers are are are secretive, and and we don't really know what they're doing. So I guess
423
00:24:50.309 --> 00:24:52.730
where I'm going with this is from my perspective,
424
00:24:55.635 --> 00:24:58.455
myself using Wasabi and other people using Wasabi,
425
00:24:59.075 --> 00:25:00.375
there's there was
426
00:25:00.995 --> 00:25:03.175
and the questions they would ask me,
427
00:25:03.529 --> 00:25:05.630
there was a lot that I learned about
428
00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:07.630
designing
429
00:25:08.090 --> 00:25:09.630
privacy focused software
430
00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:11.870
for an end user in mind.
431
00:25:12.555 --> 00:25:13.615
And I was wondering
432
00:25:14.315 --> 00:25:20.175
what takeaways you had because I know, like and and I guess we could get get into it more, but, like, the I think
433
00:25:20.660 --> 00:25:23.560
am I wrong in saying that the the point of Wasabi Wallet
434
00:25:24.020 --> 00:25:24.520
2.0
435
00:25:24.820 --> 00:25:31.065
is to try and mitigate a lot of the concerns that were learned from a user perspective with Wasabi Wallet 1?
436
00:25:34.245 --> 00:25:34.745
437
00:25:36.575 --> 00:25:37.075
yes.
438
00:25:37.970 --> 00:25:40.149
But that's not the
439
00:25:40.690 --> 00:25:43.830
the main point why we started researching it.
440
00:25:44.210 --> 00:25:44.529
The
441
00:25:48.835 --> 00:25:51.895
But but the main point was is that, you know,
442
00:25:52.540 --> 00:25:55.360
But but the main point was is that, you
443
00:25:56.620 --> 00:25:58.240
know, ZeroLink was
444
00:25:59.100 --> 00:26:00.000
figured out,
445
00:26:00.300 --> 00:26:00.800
so
446
00:26:02.155 --> 00:26:02.395
it
447
00:26:03.435 --> 00:26:11.535
no. Actually, Wasabi was figured out, so it breaks the links between the coins that arrives to your wallet
448
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:18.100
through the coins, those are anonymized and private in your wallet.
449
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.340
Like, it it doesn't
450
00:26:21.184 --> 00:26:23.525
it doesn't do do more. Like
451
00:26:25.105 --> 00:26:26.965
anyway, so so the main reason
452
00:26:27.585 --> 00:26:28.645
was is that
453
00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:30.680
we could already
454
00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:32.200
see
455
00:26:32.980 --> 00:26:40.684
and even in in the times of 0ing because I kept opening issues regarding that. But we could already see the huge limitations
456
00:26:41.065 --> 00:26:41.565
what
457
00:26:42.105 --> 00:26:43.885
what Xiaomi and Coin joins
458
00:26:44.424 --> 00:26:45.885
with 0 link applies.
459
00:26:46.290 --> 00:26:46.790
How
460
00:26:48.530 --> 00:26:50.950
what is the potential of them? And
461
00:26:52.290 --> 00:26:55.510
it's it's not great. It doesn't go
462
00:26:56.665 --> 00:26:57.165
much
463
00:26:57.545 --> 00:27:00.445
further than that. It can go further.
464
00:27:01.305 --> 00:27:02.445
465
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.660
466
00:27:08.360 --> 00:27:15.554
the this this this this point, what what I just said that it breaks the link between from the wallet, from
467
00:27:16.014 --> 00:27:18.195
the coins receiving to the wallet,
468
00:27:18.495 --> 00:27:20.514
to the coins spending to the wallet,
469
00:27:20.975 --> 00:27:21.475
that
470
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:23.220
there is
471
00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:32.144
there are coins in between. Right? Like, if if you mix a coin, you spend it, and that generates a change, then
472
00:27:32.524 --> 00:27:33.345
that change
473
00:27:34.445 --> 00:27:41.024
shouldn't really go into the mix. I mean, sometimes it's a good idea, but but it's it's not
474
00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:44.690
it's it's not clear. Right? Like, this kind of limitations.
475
00:27:45.310 --> 00:27:46.850
But the the main limitation
476
00:27:47.310 --> 00:27:49.170
is the workspace efficiency.
477
00:27:50.125 --> 00:27:52.145
If we keep creating these
478
00:27:52.845 --> 00:27:53.345
these
479
00:27:54.125 --> 00:27:56.065
simple equal outputs
480
00:27:56.445 --> 00:28:02.100
coin joints, what we are doing right now, then we're going to be priced out very fast.
481
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:03.059
And
482
00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:04.980
and, you know,
483
00:28:05.360 --> 00:28:12.295
I I I think we we don't have a we we are not arguing about that. Right? Like, if more people come to Bitcoin, then
484
00:28:12.595 --> 00:28:14.855
block space goes up. So proportionately,
485
00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:16.850
CoinJoin fees are gonna
486
00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:19.570
be more painful to people than
487
00:28:19.950 --> 00:28:24.610
488
00:28:25.265 --> 00:28:26.165
to to use
489
00:28:26.945 --> 00:28:35.540
to to use CoinJoin than to not use CoinJoin. I mean, the the the cheapest way for someone to use Bitcoin is just the worst privacy possible. Right? It's just, like, consolidate all of your
490
00:28:36.320 --> 00:28:40.645
UTXO sent to a single fucking UTXO, and then just spend from that.
491
00:28:42.405 --> 00:28:46.105
492
00:28:46.405 --> 00:28:47.225
I've learned
493
00:28:47.685 --> 00:28:48.185
that
494
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.860
it never really gets priced out because
495
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:52.900
it will
496
00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:57.140
always be Economica to mix with more Bitcoins.
497
00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:58.020
Right?
498
00:28:58.435 --> 00:29:00.535
And that's that's a problem because
499
00:29:02.035 --> 00:29:04.935
because because it doesn't matter how much money you are
500
00:29:05.290 --> 00:29:09.550
you are transacting with the Bitcoin. What matters is how many
501
00:29:09.930 --> 00:29:18.775
bytes your transactions are using up, how much block space you are using up, and that does not correlate with the amount. So there will always be
502
00:29:20.090 --> 00:29:20.590
economical
503
00:29:21.050 --> 00:29:21.550
to
504
00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:24.030
to mix with with larger amounts.
505
00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:28.350
But, yeah, this this is going up and up and up, the equilibrium.
506
00:29:28.730 --> 00:29:29.230
Right?
507
00:29:29.995 --> 00:29:32.095
508
00:29:35.115 --> 00:29:39.055
that, you know, using Bitcoin privately will always be more expensive, I think.
509
00:29:39.760 --> 00:29:40.760
I I I don't, you know
510
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:46.299
even in, like, a world where we have signature aggregation and we have Lightning and stuff, maybe Lightning
511
00:29:46.755 --> 00:29:59.560
provides some kind of incentive to, you know, use Bitcoin more privately that's cheaper for you and we can get into that later. But I've kinda come to the conclusion that it'll always be more expensive. The goal should be maybe to make it only slightly more expensive.
512
00:30:00.820 --> 00:30:02.600
But when it comes to to
513
00:30:04.405 --> 00:30:06.905
when it comes to to increasing adoption,
514
00:30:08.565 --> 00:30:22.059
obviously, the single most important thing you can do is is lower costs. But I think the the the other two big things that people don't really talk about is, first of all, UX is is super fucking important. And I wanna dive into this with Open Arms because of,
515
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:23.019
you know,
516
00:30:23.384 --> 00:30:27.164
Join Market was around. I think it it launched in 2015 as a project.
517
00:30:27.625 --> 00:30:32.125
Correct. And and it never really got that much adoption, I think, primarily because
518
00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:40.640
of UX. And we can jump in that in a second. But the other thing that I've noticed that I've learned from an education point of view on the front lines with users,
519
00:30:42.325 --> 00:30:45.785
who I've provided workshops for and handheld them and stuff,
520
00:30:46.165 --> 00:30:48.905
is, like, the defaults are super fucking important.
521
00:30:49.529 --> 00:30:50.029
99%
522
00:30:50.409 --> 00:30:53.309
of people will never fucking change the defaults.
523
00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:58.669
And if if if if an educator or a promoter is trying to increase adoption of something,
524
00:30:59.775 --> 00:31:00.675
telling them,
525
00:31:01.455 --> 00:31:02.115
you know,
526
00:31:03.215 --> 00:31:18.565
if you have a bunch of gotchas that you have to tell them every time you try and onboard someone new, you know, change this, change that, make sure you don't do this, make sure you don't do that, make sure you don't do this. They're especially in a world where all you have to do is make one mistake in privacy and it's on the ledger forever and you're fucked.
527
00:31:20.245 --> 00:31:27.705
It's just a it's a losing strategy. It's a strategy where you just, you know, I it it's it's you're you're trying to run uphill.
528
00:31:28.850 --> 00:31:37.190
And and we've seen this with with Open Arms is he's he's packaged join market into this into this, like, raspi image
529
00:31:37.615 --> 00:31:38.355
and join
530
00:31:38.735 --> 00:31:43.235
inbox to try and make the default experience of join market better.
531
00:31:44.335 --> 00:31:54.340
Nopar, would you agree with me there that, like, that that most users aren't changing defaults and, like, you know, having sane reasonable defaults is is, like, really the only way to go forward with this?
532
00:31:54.905 --> 00:31:56.045
533
00:31:57.225 --> 00:31:57.625
In fact,
534
00:31:58.265 --> 00:32:08.650
you can go even further and, you know, I I I'm pretty sure you encounter this situation many times when you're talking with someone who who is into Monero, and
535
00:32:09.270 --> 00:32:11.050
and they they are talking about
536
00:32:12.565 --> 00:32:15.544
when Monero have privacy by default, and,
537
00:32:16.164 --> 00:32:26.570
you know, they they bring this up as an argument. Like, that's not what you would want, but that's exactly our goal with Bitcoin. Right? Privacy by default.
538
00:32:27.110 --> 00:32:32.855
Now will we ever get there? That's a that's a good question, but that's definitely the
539
00:32:34.435 --> 00:32:36.455
540
00:32:37.475 --> 00:32:40.695
Sorry for cutting you off. I mean, I just always think it's so interesting that,
541
00:32:42.020 --> 00:32:43.880
you know, there's all these insecure Bitcoiners
542
00:32:44.340 --> 00:32:49.080
that when people like us talk about, you know, improving Bitcoin privacy guarantees,
543
00:32:50.815 --> 00:32:54.035
They think it's, like, some kind of underhanded promotion of Monero.
544
00:32:54.575 --> 00:32:55.315
But, really,
545
00:32:55.775 --> 00:32:56.275
like,
546
00:32:57.135 --> 00:33:00.115
the the biggest existential threat to Monero
547
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:08.020
is that Bitcoin is easier to use privately. Like, if we're successful here, like, there's absolutely no reason to use Monero. So it's absolutely hilarious to me,
548
00:33:09.040 --> 00:33:09.860
how often
549
00:33:10.394 --> 00:33:16.894
I have people, like, chirping at me that, you know, like, I'm, like, secretly promoting Monero. It makes no fucking sense logically.
550
00:33:19.700 --> 00:33:20.919
551
00:33:21.860 --> 00:33:28.840
the this work that they are doing is very important. Right? Like, if Bitcoin would really stay at it is today,
552
00:33:29.764 --> 00:33:33.144
in terms of privacy, then the only thing that would
553
00:33:33.684 --> 00:33:34.985
save a totalitarian,
554
00:33:36.565 --> 00:33:37.465
smart surveillance,
555
00:33:38.210 --> 00:33:39.350
Fortica system
556
00:33:40.050 --> 00:33:47.590
would be like a private Altcoin. So so I think it's very important that they are doing it. It's just my calculation is that,
557
00:33:48.595 --> 00:33:51.735
probably people don't care that much and gonna use Bitcoin
558
00:33:52.435 --> 00:33:54.695
anyway even if it's not private.
559
00:33:56.429 --> 00:33:58.929
560
00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:01.650
you know, is gonna be successful. So,
561
00:34:02.110 --> 00:34:05.745
if if we expect wide spread Bitcoin usage, then the focus,
562
00:34:06.205 --> 00:34:14.790
as a as someone who cares about privacy should be, you know, making it easier to use privately as much as possible because I I I think it's gonna be super successful regardless.
563
00:34:15.730 --> 00:34:24.664
Open Arms. So you wanna give some insight here in your your opinion on on your work on joining joining Box and and why defaults are important, why UX is important,
564
00:34:24.964 --> 00:34:37.430
why accessibility is important, why we have to increase these numbers. Like, I I really do feel like, like, how many CoinJoin users do we think there are, guys? Like, do we think are are there more than 10,000 people in the world using CoinJoin right now?
565
00:34:40.195 --> 00:34:42.135
566
00:34:43.315 --> 00:34:49.039
567
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:56.895
568
00:34:57.675 --> 00:34:58.735
102 100 offers,
569
00:34:59.835 --> 00:35:00.575
which means
570
00:35:01.275 --> 00:35:02.655
those are separate wallets,
571
00:35:03.515 --> 00:35:06.650
not necessarily separate people, but, you know.
572
00:35:07.430 --> 00:35:08.650
573
00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:14.250
It is. The the the max it probably is is the max it is is, like, 200 people.
574
00:35:15.355 --> 00:35:16.415
575
00:35:16.715 --> 00:35:17.615
Yes. Right.
576
00:35:18.315 --> 00:35:20.255
Of makers who are running at the time.
577
00:35:21.035 --> 00:35:21.535
Right?
578
00:35:21.915 --> 00:35:22.415
But
579
00:35:23.380 --> 00:35:25.539
so so yes. So coming to join market it's it's,
580
00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:30.099
it's a great rabbit hole, you know. I was I was very very,
581
00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:33.815
happy to fall down into. But to be honest, it
582
00:35:34.195 --> 00:35:36.615
needed some, you know, previous training with
583
00:35:37.475 --> 00:35:38.615
being familiar with
584
00:35:41.640 --> 00:35:42.539
Bitcoin transactions
585
00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:49.020
and, like, derivation parts, you know, things like gap limit and, you know, things that you would not
586
00:35:49.995 --> 00:35:50.495
just
587
00:35:52.235 --> 00:36:06.380
have when you that the only thing which you have used is a mobile wallet before. But if you if you have run a node and you have seen the command line before, then I think it it is a very good thing to look into what this
588
00:36:06.680 --> 00:36:07.180
OG
589
00:36:07.720 --> 00:36:08.220
and
590
00:36:08.755 --> 00:36:09.255
continuously
591
00:36:09.875 --> 00:36:12.535
improved wallet is able to offer.
592
00:36:13.075 --> 00:36:22.670
So if you've used, like, Bitcoin Core in the in the command line, but then it's nothing stopping you to use join market as well. Join market also has
593
00:36:23.530 --> 00:36:24.280
a QT
594
00:36:24.785 --> 00:36:28.005
interface similar to what Bitcoin Core offers,
595
00:36:28.464 --> 00:36:34.700
which is, like, you where you can do coin control with a click of a button and you can like send
596
00:36:35.160 --> 00:36:39.180
coin joins and send and receive page joins as well. So
597
00:36:40.845 --> 00:36:43.825
so so it is it is very very usable, but it has
598
00:36:44.525 --> 00:36:45.025
this,
599
00:36:46.045 --> 00:36:46.545
requirement
600
00:36:46.925 --> 00:36:47.724
that you need to
601
00:36:48.730 --> 00:36:55.150
you must run a full node because that's what this connecting to. It needs it needs a Bitcoin RPC interface
602
00:36:55.609 --> 00:36:57.069
provided by Bitcoin Core
603
00:36:58.010 --> 00:36:58.510
to
604
00:36:59.035 --> 00:36:59.535
interact
605
00:37:00.235 --> 00:37:02.975
with the network and get the information out of your balances
606
00:37:03.355 --> 00:37:04.335
and your transactions.
607
00:37:04.955 --> 00:37:05.455
So
608
00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:08.630
that's kind of the first thing which
609
00:37:10.770 --> 00:37:13.829
could have been I mean, which could have, improved
610
00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:14.710
a lot
611
00:37:15.355 --> 00:37:17.615
with just packaging it into into
612
00:37:18.075 --> 00:37:21.454
basically. And then also it it works as a as a standalone
613
00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:25.030
in in joining box. So you just
614
00:37:25.810 --> 00:37:38.915
spared that kind of setup process that now you need to set up a full node and install a Python package. All of this works best in Linux. So if you're not running Linux that you are in a bit of a difficulty, although you have, like,
615
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:43.300
a windows dot x as well, which you can try. But
616
00:37:44.160 --> 00:37:44.660
yeah.
617
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:46.425
And and you can use
618
00:37:46.825 --> 00:37:50.685
something like Wasabi as well in in Windows, but, you know, I wouldn't trust,
619
00:37:51.625 --> 00:37:59.070
any significant amounts on a computer running closed source this fiber. Does the Bitcoin privacy discussion start with Linux?
620
00:38:00.970 --> 00:38:02.270
Yes. I think so.
621
00:38:03.505 --> 00:38:05.525
As as as I've said in the in the beginning,
622
00:38:06.145 --> 00:38:09.445
you know, there are different levels to this in in in your life.
623
00:38:09.985 --> 00:38:10.485
And
624
00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:12.480
starting with not leaking
625
00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:13.840
everything
626
00:38:14.140 --> 00:38:17.200
or a lot of things without your knowledge out of your computer
627
00:38:17.955 --> 00:38:20.215
is the first step to have better privacy.
628
00:38:21.075 --> 00:38:24.695
And then you you can move on to your phone and then,
629
00:38:24.995 --> 00:38:26.055
you know, you can
630
00:38:27.550 --> 00:38:28.770
transition try to,
631
00:38:29.390 --> 00:38:30.130
work towards
632
00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:35.650
running software only which you trust or which is auditable and which is
633
00:38:37.025 --> 00:38:44.645
634
00:38:45.160 --> 00:38:54.299
and and how your transactions look on chain, on on a chain that we expect to exist forever. We I like, I expect Yes. The Bitcoin Blockchain to outlive me. Right?
635
00:38:54.825 --> 00:38:59.885
Outlive my grandkids, outlive their grandkids. Like, this fucking thing is gonna be there forever. So you have the on chain footprint,
636
00:39:00.505 --> 00:39:05.230
that is on this ledger forever that everyone can view and inspect forever.
637
00:39:06.170 --> 00:39:07.310
And then you have
638
00:39:07.849 --> 00:39:09.470
this, like, network level,
639
00:39:11.985 --> 00:39:14.085
advanced attacker type of
640
00:39:15.105 --> 00:39:19.205
threat. Right? Where, like, Windows is closed source. Right? So maybe
641
00:39:19.700 --> 00:39:36.734
maybe information is leaking through your Windows computer to Microsoft or some kind of closed source vendor that's operating on on a Microsoft product or Apple or something like that Oh, yeah. Or your phone or something like that. But do we agree to Alexa and Google Home and etcetera. Yeah. Right. Like people have yeah. People have fucking
642
00:39:37.530 --> 00:39:44.670
they buy wiretaps, and they install them in their house that are run by global corporations that coordinate with governments. Exactly. That's the first step.
643
00:39:44.970 --> 00:39:47.150
But but would you agree though that
644
00:39:47.775 --> 00:39:48.275
from
645
00:39:50.175 --> 00:39:55.235
a overarching basis, if we're looking at trying to help the most amount of users,
646
00:39:57.700 --> 00:39:59.480
have some kind of decent privacy
647
00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:01.240
improvements with Bitcoin,
648
00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:02.280
the
649
00:40:03.140 --> 00:40:11.825
the on chain footprint is first place to start. It's almost the it's the it's the thing that's gonna be there forever. It's it's the lowest hanging fruit.
650
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:20.960
651
00:40:21.645 --> 00:40:23.985
But I just tried to kind of explain why
652
00:40:24.285 --> 00:40:26.145
why it is difficult to get joint markets
653
00:40:26.845 --> 00:40:36.260
to get started with joint markets first of all because it's based in these principles that you already through these steps before. Right? That you are your kind of software practice
654
00:40:37.015 --> 00:40:40.955
or, like, informatic technology practice is already
655
00:40:41.575 --> 00:40:49.080
kind of at level where you can deal with the command line. Right? But it's obvious this is not true for most people and, you know, you shouldn't be,
656
00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:51.400
spending that much time,
657
00:40:51.940 --> 00:40:57.835
I mean, for for an average or if you are not a software developer or like a Bitcoin fanatic like us. Right? So
658
00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:07.720
that's why we have these note packages and that's why I've I've tried to put it as easy as possible to just install
659
00:41:08.835 --> 00:41:16.215
from a menu, you know press a button basically, and then you are provided with an interface which is an interactive guide which which
660
00:41:16.930 --> 00:41:22.310
where you see the options what you can do, and you don't need to look up any unfamiliar syntax in the,
661
00:41:23.250 --> 00:41:27.535
in the command line, which is but it shows you what it does,
662
00:41:27.835 --> 00:41:31.295
but you can just choose what you want to do. You don't need to look it up. So
663
00:41:31.595 --> 00:41:32.095
this
664
00:41:32.555 --> 00:41:38.150
kind of approach is just an interactive guide, so you don't need to follow a tutorial, but the tutorial is inside there.
665
00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:47.555
And I mean so I've seen that people do enjoy and and I I know a lot of people who have started to use your own market because of this.
666
00:41:47.935 --> 00:41:50.355
And then once you get used to it,
667
00:41:50.895 --> 00:41:51.635
it is
668
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:53.180
it has such,
669
00:41:54.200 --> 00:41:55.580
a wealth of functions
670
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:57.020
that you can do
671
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.100
the most most things which other wallets do as well.
672
00:42:02.295 --> 00:42:03.515
And there are advantages
673
00:42:04.135 --> 00:42:05.515
of the architecture,
674
00:42:05.815 --> 00:42:08.234
how it is how it is built up. Because
675
00:42:08.775 --> 00:42:10.450
I the most important thing,
676
00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:13.510
I see with coin joints
677
00:42:13.890 --> 00:42:17.270
and as we've discussed before as well and which is somewhat
678
00:42:17.570 --> 00:42:18.310
kind of
679
00:42:19.235 --> 00:42:19.975
makes it
680
00:42:20.355 --> 00:42:20.855
complicated
681
00:42:21.395 --> 00:42:23.575
and what it is not present in in Waselby
682
00:42:24.115 --> 00:42:27.815
that you have this mixed debts or different accounts idea
683
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:29.660
that you're separating the
684
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.619
those coins which have not been mixed,
685
00:42:33.240 --> 00:42:34.619
those which have been
686
00:42:35.455 --> 00:42:39.155
through a coin join, and the change from those transactions.
687
00:42:41.135 --> 00:42:44.755
And, this happens in join markets in a way that it has
688
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:46.900
kind of a circular build
689
00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:49.940
of circular architecture of 5 accounts,
690
00:42:50.720 --> 00:42:52.180
also called mixed debts,
691
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:55.265
where the coins are just tumbling through
692
00:42:55.645 --> 00:42:58.705
only only able to progress between an account
693
00:42:59.244 --> 00:43:06.900
from an account to another if they are going through a coin join. And the unmixed change from that transaction is left behind in the previous account
694
00:43:07.200 --> 00:43:09.140
and the coin join output
695
00:43:09.745 --> 00:43:14.565
is progressing to the next account. And, also, how the wallet is written,
696
00:43:15.185 --> 00:43:19.670
I mean, obviously, you have all freedom to do whatever you like, but the default is
697
00:43:20.130 --> 00:43:22.230
that you are not allowed to spend
698
00:43:22.770 --> 00:43:23.830
not allowed to merge
699
00:43:24.450 --> 00:43:26.470
coins between different accounts.
700
00:43:26.770 --> 00:43:30.975
Meaning, you are not merging the coin joint outputs with the omnix transactions.
701
00:43:32.555 --> 00:43:34.015
And and this
702
00:43:34.475 --> 00:43:44.150
this is something which is, you know, the the basic principle of of dealing with joint market. And, also, it just needs a bit of understanding because you deposit some money, deposit some Bitcoin,
703
00:43:44.530 --> 00:43:52.744
and then it goes through a couple of coin joints and, oh, where where did it go? Where it didn't go, it's still in the wallet, but it's in a different account separated.
704
00:43:55.080 --> 00:43:58.300
705
00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:00.620
are completely fucking lost right now.
706
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:01.500
707
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:02.680
708
00:44:03.464 --> 00:44:07.565
I I I think the the place where we should start here is coin control.
709
00:44:08.665 --> 00:44:11.005
Coin control is this idea that
710
00:44:11.700 --> 00:44:14.599
for a lot of the freaks, your wallet that you're used to using,
711
00:44:15.859 --> 00:44:20.785
on mobile or even, like, one of the mainstream hardware wallets, like a treasure wallet
712
00:44:21.345 --> 00:44:22.805
dottreasure.io or ledger,
713
00:44:24.625 --> 00:44:25.125
it
714
00:44:25.505 --> 00:44:33.359
they they hide they hide the the gory details from you because they want to make it easier for you. But what they do
715
00:44:33.740 --> 00:44:36.320
is is is really when you have a wallet and it says,
716
00:44:36.765 --> 00:44:39.825
let's say, it's it says you have 40,000,000 sats in your wallet.
717
00:44:40.365 --> 00:44:40.865
Really,
718
00:44:41.244 --> 00:44:42.065
it's not
719
00:44:42.684 --> 00:44:47.369
just 40,000,000 sats in your wallet. There's all these different transactions in your wallet.
720
00:44:47.750 --> 00:45:22.440
UTXO's unspent transaction outputs is what we call them that add up to 40,000,000 sats. So you have, like, one that's 10,000,000 sat, one that's 5,000,000 sat, one that's 15,000,000 sat, and they're all coming from presumably different sources. If I if I pay if I pay Open Arms 5,000,000 sats and his mom for Christmas pays him 3,000,000 sats, his wallet says 8,000,000 sats, but, really, there's one transaction for me and one transaction from his mom. So if he chooses the transaction for me to spend it, if he spends it if he combines those together, then me and his mom both know he owns that other transaction.
721
00:45:23.380 --> 00:45:25.079
So there's this there's this,
722
00:45:27.245 --> 00:45:27.805
723
00:45:28.685 --> 00:45:35.505
724
00:45:36.030 --> 00:45:40.450
to kinda hide that from the user, and it it was a major negative to privacy.
725
00:45:41.150 --> 00:45:45.330
So now we have wallets like Wasabi, you know, Joy Market already had coin control.
726
00:45:45.845 --> 00:45:47.785
Bitcoin Core has always had coin control.
727
00:45:48.484 --> 00:45:50.585
But Wasabi was, like, one of the first
728
00:45:53.319 --> 00:46:12.590
consumer grade wallets for, like, the average consumer that just fucking put it right in front of you. You you had to use coin control, they forced it on you, and you had to label everything. And labeling is important because in 5 years when it comes time to spend, you're not gonna remember which transaction came from me and which transaction came from Open Arms' mom, so you need to fucking label it. But the problem exists
729
00:46:13.370 --> 00:46:16.110
that if we're trying to increase adoption here,
730
00:46:16.650 --> 00:46:18.170
expecting a user to
731
00:46:19.085 --> 00:46:19.984
it's like the unfortunate
732
00:46:20.285 --> 00:46:23.664
like, expecting a user to, like, use critical thinking and logic
733
00:46:24.365 --> 00:46:28.384
for every transaction they make and selecting their their inputs
734
00:46:29.230 --> 00:46:33.970
seems like a lost fucking cause. Like, how many users can we expect to do that?
735
00:46:35.150 --> 00:46:39.445
Is that is that am I wrong here? Like, is it is it am I just jaded?
736
00:46:41.185 --> 00:46:42.325
737
00:46:43.025 --> 00:46:44.485
correct. I mean,
738
00:46:45.665 --> 00:46:46.485
the last
739
00:46:46.950 --> 00:46:47.770
last many,
740
00:46:48.630 --> 00:46:53.050
one and a half year, I was thinking about how to remove coin control.
741
00:46:53.510 --> 00:46:54.010
And
742
00:46:54.310 --> 00:46:55.290
what does
743
00:46:55.725 --> 00:46:56.385
coin control
744
00:46:56.845 --> 00:46:57.325
really
745
00:46:57.725 --> 00:47:03.985
what what's the purpose behind it? Like, what what what does this one to to actually do? And
746
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:05.380
and,
747
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:07.219
you
748
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:11.220
know, yeah, I I I go into this. So,
749
00:47:13.235 --> 00:47:14.135
I think
750
00:47:14.595 --> 00:47:16.935
there are 22 very important
751
00:47:17.235 --> 00:47:18.135
things here
752
00:47:18.755 --> 00:47:19.255
is
753
00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:20.680
coin control.
754
00:47:21.700 --> 00:47:22.840
You want to somehow
755
00:47:23.140 --> 00:47:24.520
this is somehow
756
00:47:25.700 --> 00:47:31.385
avoid change. This is change avoidance. You want to avoid changes in transactions, and
757
00:47:32.485 --> 00:47:36.870
and and we will have a solution for that. But the other other thing is which
758
00:47:37.350 --> 00:47:40.810
which is which is the labels or or more
759
00:47:41.910 --> 00:47:42.810
more precisely,
760
00:47:43.910 --> 00:47:51.585
what you're really interested in is about not the individual coins in terms of privacy, but what you're interested in is the
761
00:47:52.365 --> 00:47:53.025
the wallet,
762
00:47:53.405 --> 00:47:54.224
the clusters
763
00:47:54.525 --> 00:47:55.025
that
764
00:47:55.420 --> 00:47:58.480
an outside blockchain analysis might establish
765
00:47:59.180 --> 00:48:01.040
from your wallet content. And
766
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:03.520
that makes it much
767
00:48:04.404 --> 00:48:04.904
simpler
768
00:48:05.444 --> 00:48:09.765
if if you think about it. Because instead of having a 100 coin in your wallet
769
00:48:10.964 --> 00:48:15.809
seeing a 100 coin in your wallet now, you would only see a couple of
770
00:48:16.109 --> 00:48:16.609
clusters
771
00:48:17.069 --> 00:48:18.369
belonging to multi,
772
00:48:20.190 --> 00:48:24.355
connected to multiple entities who might know about those clusters.
773
00:48:25.295 --> 00:48:28.755
And and I think we can do that. But even further,
774
00:48:29.695 --> 00:48:30.195
but,
775
00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:35.980
well, a long time ago, we realized is that, you know, there isn't
776
00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:38.860
money much difference between
777
00:48:39.655 --> 00:48:41.195
mixed coins. Like,
778
00:48:43.095 --> 00:48:44.235
there is no reason
779
00:48:44.855 --> 00:48:47.835
to have coin control for mixed coins
780
00:48:48.375 --> 00:48:48.875
except
781
00:48:49.850 --> 00:48:52.030
chain ex except for change avoidance.
782
00:48:53.130 --> 00:48:53.630
And
783
00:48:53.930 --> 00:48:54.990
and yeah. So
784
00:48:55.530 --> 00:48:58.350
I think we should be able to remove it.
785
00:48:59.785 --> 00:49:08.685
786
00:49:09.450 --> 00:49:12.430
or just some kind like, this idea that
787
00:49:13.130 --> 00:49:16.510
it allows you to almost press a reset button on a coin's history.
788
00:49:17.444 --> 00:49:24.345
You know, you have a wallet that has a bunch of UTXO's and you didn't fucking do any labeling at the time. You have no idea,
789
00:49:25.160 --> 00:49:26.780
where any of those came from.
790
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:28.540
If you had a
791
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:30.940
a effective coin join
792
00:49:32.355 --> 00:49:32.855
implementation
793
00:49:33.234 --> 00:49:37.415
that you could use, you could almost, in effect, reset all of those UTXO's
794
00:49:37.795 --> 00:49:38.934
back to a base
795
00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:41.960
where where it doesn't matter which one you spend.
796
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:44.359
So there's a way to kind of
797
00:49:47.465 --> 00:49:49.645
reduce the need necessarily for
798
00:49:50.425 --> 00:49:54.445
for stringent recording and coin and coin control usage by an individual.
799
00:49:55.789 --> 00:49:56.609
I I
800
00:49:56.910 --> 00:49:59.809
it it's it seems like it's mostly a dream still,
801
00:50:00.269 --> 00:50:09.845
but there's something to be said there, especially if you use it in terms of and we'll get into this later, but something like lightning. Right? Where you if a while, like, automatically
802
00:50:10.625 --> 00:50:21.970
turns turns an output that you don't know what the history of it is into a coin join output, resets it, and then opens a channel with it, and then you spend on lightning going forward to have, like, some kind of level of forward privacy.
803
00:50:22.984 --> 00:50:25.725
The first thing you mentioned, are you, like, implying that
804
00:50:26.105 --> 00:50:29.805
to have, like, a wallet that that almost runs, like, on the fly chain analysis
805
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:33.240
on your on your UTXO's to group them together?
806
00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:38.920
807
00:50:41.125 --> 00:50:44.585
808
00:50:45.845 --> 00:50:56.875
809
00:50:57.255 --> 00:50:57.755
810
00:50:58.695 --> 00:51:05.400
Is that what you're insinuating? Like, you use the labels to group them together, or is is the user is the user providing any information here?
811
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.619
812
00:51:12.415 --> 00:51:22.195
813
00:51:22.580 --> 00:51:23.080
together.
814
00:51:23.380 --> 00:51:23.880
Like,
815
00:51:24.420 --> 00:51:26.600
joint market has automatic labeling
816
00:51:27.060 --> 00:51:28.920
as well, and this exactly,
817
00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:33.235
by these principles with a very simple kind of
818
00:51:33.695 --> 00:51:38.355
couple of lines of Python script. It does label the UTXOs to to
819
00:51:40.140 --> 00:51:40.640
deposit,
820
00:51:41.020 --> 00:51:42.720
change outputs, a non
821
00:51:43.900 --> 00:51:49.385
coin joint output, a coin joint output, and like address reused and things like that.
822
00:51:50.985 --> 00:51:52.125
So so, I mean,
823
00:51:52.905 --> 00:51:59.085
it is a transaction analysis rather than chain analysis, I would say, because the it doesn't really go back in the history.
824
00:52:02.110 --> 00:52:03.490
825
00:52:04.590 --> 00:52:05.490
826
00:52:06.270 --> 00:52:07.570
it's kind of,
827
00:52:09.735 --> 00:52:10.775
I mean, would do we
828
00:52:11.735 --> 00:52:13.835
are we expecting, like are
829
00:52:14.215 --> 00:52:19.035
are are these, like, you know, so called compliance bros? Are we gonna have, like
830
00:52:20.990 --> 00:52:27.330
I guess I'm kind of just getting really tangential here, but I'm gonna come back, but do we do we expect that they're gonna have, like, merchant wallets
831
00:52:27.945 --> 00:52:34.045
that are designed to actually, like, integrate some of these chain surveillance companies to do, like, on the fly fucking
832
00:52:36.019 --> 00:52:39.960
transaction analysis as as you're paying them? Like, are are is this a concern?
833
00:52:40.339 --> 00:52:53.660
That's already happening with the exchanges. Right? I mean, you know, all the all all the ones which are flagging coin joints, you know, they But, I mean, are is, like, a are we gonna have, like, a pop popular mobile wallets implemented and shit? Like obviously the custodial platforms are already doing this behind closed doors.
834
00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.835
835
00:53:04.255 --> 00:53:08.275
write up, you know, of the bet on the on the GUI of the wallet.
836
00:53:08.789 --> 00:53:18.010
Obviously, it doesn't go back into the history, but it's good. There is no reason to to not do that. But that's the point that it should make no
837
00:53:18.405 --> 00:53:22.825
sense to do it because it should be just a mess. That's what we are trying to,
838
00:53:23.525 --> 00:53:27.250
achieve to improve the entropy of these transactions and, you know, just
839
00:53:27.810 --> 00:53:28.610
then you are just,
840
00:53:29.250 --> 00:53:31.030
kind of, fishing in the
841
00:53:31.330 --> 00:53:32.870
in the modern waters
842
00:53:33.250 --> 00:53:36.290
for some kind of information that but there would be no
843
00:53:36.785 --> 00:53:38.405
nothing which you can find out.
844
00:53:40.545 --> 00:53:42.325
845
00:53:43.984 --> 00:53:47.380
Yeah. That that's a good point that, you know, when you're mixing, then
846
00:53:47.680 --> 00:53:52.020
it doesn't have to do any chain analysis because on your mixed coins,
847
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:58.964
the only thing that coin control does at that point is that you can avoid changes. And if you can
848
00:53:59.345 --> 00:54:01.045
implement something that
849
00:54:01.505 --> 00:54:03.365
helps the user avoid changes,
850
00:54:03.665 --> 00:54:07.280
then you don't need coin control for mixed coins.
851
00:54:07.820 --> 00:54:09.760
Now for not mixed coins,
852
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:12.960
which are the labeled coins,
853
00:54:13.985 --> 00:54:14.885
that's where
854
00:54:15.265 --> 00:54:16.985
Chainalysis must be
855
00:54:17.425 --> 00:54:20.405
well, okay. So I I think we don't have
856
00:54:20.865 --> 00:54:22.485
a a choice here. Right? Like,
857
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:28.780
one choice is that we don't do any coin control and any blockchain on any wallet
858
00:54:30.600 --> 00:54:31.580
inter wallets
859
00:54:32.395 --> 00:54:36.415
analysis. I'm I'm not sure how how to to call it, but
860
00:54:36.955 --> 00:54:38.895
that's that's a bad thing. Right? Because
861
00:54:39.460 --> 00:54:43.960
then everything is connected together like like in in normal valets. You eventually
862
00:54:44.260 --> 00:54:45.080
end up
863
00:54:45.700 --> 00:54:48.200
end up connecting together with common ownership
864
00:54:48.795 --> 00:54:54.495
heuristics or your UTXs. So that's not good. So you you have to have coin control then,
865
00:54:54.875 --> 00:55:01.020
or this kind of chain are easy too, which makes it somewhat easier than a coin control.
866
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:04.060
867
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:06.620
or or, like, help here is,
868
00:55:07.404 --> 00:55:08.464
obviously we are
869
00:55:08.845 --> 00:55:10.065
thinking along alongside
870
00:55:10.525 --> 00:55:16.000
that, you have a mixed coin and it doesn't matter which one you spend you spend and but unfortunately
871
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:17.440
it's very rarely
872
00:55:18.140 --> 00:55:30.775
possible that you won't have a change. And then, okay, you have one change and you labeled that that you have you have paid for groceries or whatever, and then you make another donation for like HRF or anything, and then maybe
873
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:35.460
you do send another one to tool project, which might have be seen,
874
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:40.500
kind of it could be even illegal in your country. And then
875
00:55:41.185 --> 00:55:44.245
you have 3 changes like this. And then when you
876
00:55:45.185 --> 00:55:45.685
send
877
00:55:46.065 --> 00:55:47.365
these changes together,
878
00:55:48.145 --> 00:55:48.645
then
879
00:55:48.990 --> 00:55:55.970
it will be obvious to the one who you're who you're paying with this merge transaction that you've been paying to a project
880
00:55:57.015 --> 00:55:57.994
and the grocery
881
00:55:58.295 --> 00:56:03.915
shop and the, and HRF as well. And, also, we'll see that's how much it was.
882
00:56:04.660 --> 00:56:05.880
883
00:56:07.460 --> 00:56:13.079
884
00:56:13.395 --> 00:56:14.215
can be different
885
00:56:14.515 --> 00:56:29.010
like you can do with some implementations. For example, in join market, you can pay with inside a coin join. Also, you can use page join where the transaction amount is not obvious and also the common ownership
886
00:56:29.535 --> 00:56:32.755
common input ownership is broken as well. So,
887
00:56:34.655 --> 00:56:36.195
you know, there are ways to
888
00:56:36.590 --> 00:56:39.570
make that change coming from the spending of that,
889
00:56:40.350 --> 00:56:42.530
mixed UTX, so not be
890
00:56:43.070 --> 00:56:44.235
toxic so called.
891
00:56:45.515 --> 00:56:54.670
892
00:56:55.770 --> 00:56:59.555
The question is, how would you avoid change without coin control?
893
00:57:07.795 --> 00:57:08.295
A
894
00:57:08.900 --> 00:57:10.980
then you click continue. And there is a
895
00:57:11.700 --> 00:57:17.080
you you don't send a transaction just yet, but there is a there is a there is a screen
896
00:57:17.540 --> 00:57:18.040
that
897
00:57:18.845 --> 00:57:20.465
that gives you 3 options.
898
00:57:21.085 --> 00:57:22.465
One of the option is
899
00:57:23.245 --> 00:57:28.670
you you you continue normally. Like, you send the exact amount that you typed
900
00:57:29.150 --> 00:57:34.770
in. The other two option is that you send a little bit less or a little bit more.
901
00:57:35.309 --> 00:57:35.809
And,
902
00:57:36.414 --> 00:57:40.515
you know, that little bit less and little bit more is not going
903
00:57:41.055 --> 00:57:42.434
to generate changes.
904
00:57:43.740 --> 00:57:46.700
So I think that's an elegant way of of,
905
00:57:47.260 --> 00:57:52.160
trying to tackle this issue, and then we'll see what happens in practice. But we'll yeah.
906
00:57:52.715 --> 00:57:54.175
I I I'm hopeful.
907
00:57:55.675 --> 00:57:56.815
908
00:57:57.275 --> 00:57:59.535
another very obvious solution, which I do
909
00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:01.160
like to use now
910
00:58:01.540 --> 00:58:11.875
is to go to layers too. So you have a coin, which is a coin joint output, and especially in in June market, it can be any amount. Right? There are no mixed pools,
911
00:58:13.215 --> 00:58:19.300
but but no fixed amount pools, but you can coin join any amount you like. It will be an equal amount
912
00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:21.940
coin join, equal amount output,
913
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.380
but only within that coin join. So you will have various
914
00:58:25.955 --> 00:58:26.455
various,
915
00:58:26.915 --> 00:58:35.495
sizes of coins in in your wallet, especially if you're running as a maker and you will allow other people to use your liquidity to coin join with. And you can take
916
00:58:36.550 --> 00:58:39.190
size UTXO you like. For example, I'm
917
00:58:39.670 --> 00:58:40.570
I don't know, will,
918
00:58:41.110 --> 00:58:43.275
want to spend, you know, £300
919
00:58:43.655 --> 00:58:44.315
on groceries
920
00:58:44.695 --> 00:58:45.435
this month
921
00:58:45.975 --> 00:58:47.995
or let's see whatever, a £1,000.
922
00:58:48.695 --> 00:58:51.195
So I take a UTXO which is slight slightly,
923
00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:55.960
which is similar to that amount which I want to spend in
924
00:58:56.260 --> 00:58:57.560
during a time for
925
00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:04.605
a similar purpose, and I open a lightning channel with it without creating a change. So there will be no toxic
926
00:59:05.005 --> 00:59:08.125
so called toxic change there at all. And then I don't
927
00:59:08.620 --> 00:59:10.240
I I keep this lightning wallet
928
00:59:11.180 --> 00:59:19.255
completely separate so it will be one pop key to that one UTXO, and I just spend it and I don't close the channel until I've spent all.
929
00:59:20.115 --> 00:59:21.015
And that would
930
00:59:21.474 --> 00:59:25.575
not create change again. And, also, if I didn't spend all the things
931
00:59:26.140 --> 00:59:33.725
for my groceries, it's something that I've been left behind that I can just use a soft service where it's, where I can get
932
00:59:34.445 --> 00:59:37.825
someone else's UTXO back for my lightning payment.
933
00:59:39.245 --> 00:59:40.860
934
00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:44.560
Rolling onto Lightning Network, the user doesn't
935
00:59:45.180 --> 00:59:51.825
care that much about how much money goes to the Lightning Network, and you can just get close to his intent and,
936
00:59:52.365 --> 01:00:03.350
937
01:00:03.810 --> 01:00:05.270
which could increase usage
938
01:00:05.650 --> 01:00:09.670
numbers. I mean, people have to open a coin, have to open a channel anyway.
939
01:00:10.194 --> 01:00:19.335
There's actually an incentive there, a nice incentive where it could be cheaper for them to open a channel into Lightning if they coin join at the same time and group with other people.
940
01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:23.340
And I I I think that kinda goes back to what I said previously,
941
01:00:24.600 --> 01:00:28.795
where I think the the first low hanging fruit goal should be reducing
942
01:00:29.095 --> 01:00:30.474
on chain fucking errors,
943
01:00:30.934 --> 01:00:34.635
because those are forever. So, I mean, we can go back and forth on the theoretical
944
01:00:35.335 --> 01:00:35.835
concerns
945
01:00:36.135 --> 01:00:39.769
of of Lightning privacy, which I think there are a lot of them. You know,
946
01:00:40.309 --> 01:00:42.009
New York City Bitcoiner and
947
01:00:42.390 --> 01:00:43.529
and friend Gleb,
948
01:00:44.925 --> 01:00:47.485
released, like, a paper a couple days ago on,
949
01:00:48.685 --> 01:00:50.705
I didn't wanna butcher his last name. It's like Numenko,
950
01:00:51.420 --> 01:01:05.954
released a paper on, like, lightning probing and all all these, you know, jamming channels and and trying to figure out channel balances and tracking lightning transactions, and pub keys are fixed right now. So there's a lot of there's there's a lot of concerns to me. Yeah.
951
01:01:06.255 --> 01:01:10.970
952
01:01:11.270 --> 01:01:15.849
private channels as well, which, you know, makes it much more difficult. Right. But
953
01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:16.890
954
01:01:17.430 --> 01:01:21.115
955
01:01:22.135 --> 01:01:29.240
at least you remove that on chain issue. Right? You at least you remove that concern of that on chain footprint that's that's forever.
956
01:01:31.220 --> 01:01:38.494
Right? Like, that that that is that that is a major benefit there. But but I I just I just wanna pull this conversation back for a second, and I I posted
957
01:01:38.795 --> 01:01:39.295
a
958
01:01:39.914 --> 01:01:43.214
a but some people might think it was a,
959
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:51.380
a theoretical question, but I don't consider it a theoretical question. It is something that I have to discuss a lot,
960
01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:53.140
behind closed doors,
961
01:01:53.785 --> 01:01:55.405
and I think it really brings
962
01:01:55.785 --> 01:01:56.525
the concerns
963
01:01:57.385 --> 01:01:59.485
to light about, like, what we're up against.
964
01:02:00.940 --> 01:02:02.880
A lot of a lot of what people say
965
01:02:03.180 --> 01:02:07.520
is don't use KYC services, and and and we've talked on this on this show,
966
01:02:08.265 --> 01:02:10.245
a lot about the dangers of KYC
967
01:02:10.785 --> 01:02:12.245
and this information collection.
968
01:02:13.585 --> 01:02:17.810
And, I mean, I personally think, like, especially if you're not using, you know,
969
01:02:18.350 --> 01:02:19.890
you're not you're not using CoinJoin
970
01:02:20.190 --> 01:02:23.410
after you use a KYC service, you're, like, extra vulnerable.
971
01:02:24.670 --> 01:02:25.170
But
972
01:02:25.705 --> 01:02:27.485
let's forget about all that for a second.
973
01:02:27.865 --> 01:02:33.405
Let's pretend you're an activist or you're you're you're you're speaking to an activist in Malaysia,
974
01:02:34.190 --> 01:02:34.349
And
975
01:02:34.990 --> 01:02:36.930
oh, no. Fuck. I apologize.
976
01:02:38.190 --> 01:02:40.450
Myanmar. You're talking to an activist in Myanmar,
977
01:02:40.910 --> 01:02:44.224
Burma, and you have you have this military
978
01:02:44.525 --> 01:02:46.865
coup that happened. Right? They're cutting the Internet
979
01:02:47.325 --> 01:02:47.825
fucking
980
01:02:48.525 --> 01:02:52.305
they're cutting the Internet every night at curfew to make sure that
981
01:02:52.690 --> 01:02:56.950
their transgressions aren't getting released. They're doing active Internet surveillance on dissidents,
982
01:02:58.690 --> 01:03:00.710
and you're cut off from the banking system.
983
01:03:01.405 --> 01:03:08.145
This is happening today. This exists today. We have we have protesters and activists on the on the ground there
984
01:03:10.020 --> 01:03:12.200
that that aren't able to get money in.
985
01:03:14.900 --> 01:03:16.760
If Bitcoin seems like a natural
986
01:03:17.140 --> 01:03:18.920
ally in that type of fight.
987
01:03:19.345 --> 01:03:24.725
But if they open the most common thing to say would be have them run a BTC pay server.
988
01:03:25.345 --> 01:03:30.270
Right? And they're running a BTC pay server, and they're accepting donations to that BTC pay server,
989
01:03:30.650 --> 01:03:31.790
they're gonna have
990
01:03:32.890 --> 01:03:34.430
so many little
991
01:03:34.970 --> 01:03:35.470
UTXOs
992
01:03:36.505 --> 01:03:38.765
that they have no idea where they came from.
993
01:03:39.305 --> 01:03:43.645
And to, like, this like, to expect, like, an activist on the ground
994
01:03:44.350 --> 01:03:47.650
to be able to run use prudent coin control,
995
01:03:47.950 --> 01:03:49.170
that kind of situation,
996
01:03:50.350 --> 01:03:50.850
seems
997
01:03:51.955 --> 01:03:52.855
completely impossible.
998
01:03:53.955 --> 01:03:56.615
Like, am I am I wrong there? Like, is there is
999
01:03:57.155 --> 01:04:00.135
what is there a disconnect there? Like, what how what's
1000
01:04:00.890 --> 01:04:02.510
what's your perspective on that?
1001
01:04:06.010 --> 01:04:07.790
1002
01:04:08.090 --> 01:04:12.025
which you posted about, you have you have the situation and what you recommend.
1003
01:04:13.285 --> 01:04:14.265
And, I mean, the
1004
01:04:14.965 --> 01:04:15.705
the consensus
1005
01:04:16.005 --> 01:04:16.505
seems
1006
01:04:17.045 --> 01:04:22.340
seem to be, which I do agree as well, that I mean, if you can do use Lightning,
1007
01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:27.380
I mean, it could be even custodial, right, if you are not exposing if if it's not.
1008
01:04:28.434 --> 01:04:28.934
But,
1009
01:04:30.035 --> 01:04:31.895
I mean, it has an online require
1010
01:04:32.275 --> 01:04:32.775
requirement.
1011
01:04:34.434 --> 01:04:36.990
But you might as well do it since, like,
1012
01:04:37.530 --> 01:04:40.110
proposing a new address every time would
1013
01:04:40.730 --> 01:04:43.310
need that kind of online requirement anyway.
1014
01:04:44.675 --> 01:04:45.175
And
1015
01:04:45.475 --> 01:04:51.095
I I know where this goes. And also there's a question in the chat about pay names, which do,
1016
01:04:51.955 --> 01:04:57.780
kind of deal with this that you are providing a new address automatically on the communicating
1017
01:04:58.480 --> 01:04:59.460
on chain, basically.
1018
01:05:01.785 --> 01:05:02.685
The thing is
1019
01:05:03.785 --> 01:05:05.085
you have these outputs
1020
01:05:05.625 --> 01:05:07.725
which now are in your wallet.
1021
01:05:08.025 --> 01:05:16.370
And, I mean, putting aside the concerns with PayNim that, you know, how you recover recover the wallet and, you know, how much it is compatible with the implementations,
1022
01:05:16.830 --> 01:05:20.575
etcetera. I mean, this is this is, you know, getting getting very technical.
1023
01:05:20.875 --> 01:05:23.375
But when you when you're merging these transactions,
1024
01:05:23.835 --> 01:05:26.015
you are in the same place. Right?
1025
01:05:26.590 --> 01:05:29.570
If you if you receive transactions through a pay name and you
1026
01:05:30.270 --> 01:05:30.770
just
1027
01:05:31.150 --> 01:05:32.370
take and merge them,
1028
01:05:32.910 --> 01:05:34.210
how does it not connect
1029
01:05:35.425 --> 01:05:35.925
the
1030
01:05:36.305 --> 01:05:36.805
sources?
1031
01:05:37.905 --> 01:05:40.965
1032
01:05:41.425 --> 01:05:43.045
Pay NIMs attempt to solve
1033
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:44.260
the
1034
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:46.160
PayNIM's alternatively
1035
01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:57.625
it's it's it's Bitcoin's version of stealth address, which Monero has implemented. I kinda wanna see Liquid implement stealth addresses. I it's weird that they haven't yet. I think that could be, like, a killer feature, but I digress.
1036
01:05:59.080 --> 01:06:00.620
The the the key aspect
1037
01:06:01.240 --> 01:06:01.740
is
1038
01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:05.980
you should and and this is something that that I hold
1039
01:06:06.335 --> 01:06:09.714
very dear as a as a as a goal that I think
1040
01:06:10.174 --> 01:06:12.115
I would love to see software developers
1041
01:06:12.894 --> 01:06:13.795
focus on,
1042
01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:15.580
besides Samurais,
1043
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:19.500
is this idea that you should be able to post a text string,
1044
01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:22.220
without any hosting requirements
1045
01:06:22.744 --> 01:06:26.365
that allows people to pay you in a relatively private way on Bitcoin.
1046
01:06:26.904 --> 01:06:40.025
And that's what PayNim's attempts to solve is is is this idea that, like, an activist who is who has, you know, a authoritarian government that's actively trying to destroy their way of life is gonna be able to run a 247
1047
01:06:40.484 --> 01:06:40.984
BTC
1048
01:06:41.285 --> 01:06:41.944
pay server
1049
01:06:42.244 --> 01:06:45.545
and manage, you know, liquidity constraints on lightning
1050
01:06:46.240 --> 01:06:47.920
is fucking out of out of
1051
01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:52.420
you know, never gonna happen. Like, that is just not a realistic expectation.
1052
01:06:52.799 --> 01:07:00.985
Can they post on their social media? Can they post a single texturing? In this case, you know, the a a Paynam name or a payment code,
1053
01:07:01.300 --> 01:07:04.200
which is really the PayNIM name links to a payment code.
1054
01:07:04.820 --> 01:07:06.680
Yes. Like, that seems very reasonable
1055
01:07:07.060 --> 01:07:07.720
to me.
1056
01:07:08.500 --> 01:07:10.915
The main negative of of PayNim
1057
01:07:11.535 --> 01:07:19.650
is that they have this on chain it's on chain. And and so right now, you have this notification transaction with current fees. I mean, you're talking $25,
1058
01:07:20.190 --> 01:07:20.690
$30,
1059
01:07:21.950 --> 01:07:26.130
just to activate that process. Right? We just saw HRF just added Pay NIMs.
1060
01:07:27.175 --> 01:07:39.339
If you wanna donate to HRF, you have to pay this this first you have to pay this notification transaction, which is is gonna get more and more expensive as Bitcoin pumps and as fees pump. And at the top of that, what you mentioned, Open Arms,
1061
01:07:39.880 --> 01:07:42.940
you don't solve the after issue.
1062
01:07:43.455 --> 01:07:48.195
Right? You don't solve the issue that the that the activist is sitting on a ton of a ton of UTXOs
1063
01:07:51.410 --> 01:07:57.990
that that, you know, they have to practice prudent coin control or go into CoinJoin at that point. Right? Right. 1 by 1.
1064
01:07:58.375 --> 01:08:02.075
1 by 1. And and anything that's underneath the lowest CoinJoin,
1065
01:08:03.335 --> 01:08:09.490
amount, they wouldn't be able to unless at at join market, they could. Right? Exactly. No such thing to join market. Right. Yep.
1066
01:08:10.270 --> 01:08:12.050
1067
01:08:12.350 --> 01:08:18.625
mentions, and also as I wanted to tell the next thing is that you would need to have some kind of way to,
1068
01:08:19.165 --> 01:08:26.930
communicate your donation place. Let it be a website or an email or somewhere where people can ping you. I mean, you can just
1069
01:08:27.870 --> 01:08:28.370
publish
1070
01:08:29.655 --> 01:08:32.875
1071
01:08:33.255 --> 01:08:42.130
1072
01:08:43.810 --> 01:08:48.415
you need to solve a capture or something to to acquire it. You just dump
1073
01:08:49.035 --> 01:08:51.695
thousands of addresses from your wallet, and
1074
01:08:52.475 --> 01:08:54.575
you put it in a in a rolling basis.
1075
01:08:55.490 --> 01:08:57.110
1076
01:08:57.490 --> 01:08:58.950
server to serve them up.
1077
01:08:59.570 --> 01:09:02.870
1078
01:09:03.345 --> 01:09:08.245
you know, serving a text based web page. That's I mean, you must be able to do that.
1079
01:09:09.105 --> 01:09:18.880
Or that could be a Telegram bot, you know, or it could be I mean, it depends what kind of communication you are using. Right? But you see that you see see the significant advantage of something like a stealth address. Right?
1080
01:09:19.955 --> 01:09:35.600
1081
01:09:38.105 --> 01:09:44.365
1082
01:09:44.850 --> 01:09:46.389
obviously. But then,
1083
01:09:49.969 --> 01:09:54.070
yeah, I mean, that's that that is not a good solution, but that is that was
1084
01:09:54.525 --> 01:09:55.345
so far the
1085
01:09:56.045 --> 01:10:01.425
1086
01:10:01.890 --> 01:10:10.870
in terms of privacy. I mean, it's not great for trust. It's custodial privacy is what it is. I mean, you're you're you're trusting whatever the custodian is with your privacy instead,
1087
01:10:11.545 --> 01:10:14.285
and also regulators are just gonna crush that shit.
1088
01:10:14.745 --> 01:10:17.805
But it is an it is an interesting point that you made because
1089
01:10:18.350 --> 01:10:22.530
I think Bitcoin's privacy shortcomings were kinda hidden in the early days
1090
01:10:22.830 --> 01:10:28.275
because we had so many custodial services. And then we made this push to self custody, which is great,
1091
01:10:28.655 --> 01:10:32.755
but it comes with this privacy trade off. Right? Like, if you use the custodial service,
1092
01:10:33.935 --> 01:10:37.480
there's no the on chain footprint issue is solved ish ish.
1093
01:10:40.820 --> 01:10:41.320
1094
01:10:42.020 --> 01:10:44.679
1095
01:10:45.219 --> 01:10:45.780
you know, with
1096
01:10:47.114 --> 01:10:51.855
Did you agree with me that this should be, like, this should be, like, the most obvious Bitcoin use case?
1097
01:10:55.130 --> 01:10:59.710
1098
01:11:01.290 --> 01:11:01.790
address,
1099
01:11:03.345 --> 01:11:10.870
and actually 2 problems. Right? One is how do you accept donations privately? And as OpenOM said, there
1100
01:11:11.190 --> 01:11:14.890
might be other ways like how Chris Butcher does it.
1101
01:11:15.590 --> 01:11:17.450
But the other other big
1102
01:11:19.965 --> 01:11:25.425
big big benefit of of stat addresses is is the user experience. Right? Like,
1103
01:11:25.750 --> 01:11:26.250
you
1104
01:11:26.790 --> 01:11:32.489
you basically save 1 round trip from with with another person,
1105
01:11:33.025 --> 01:11:37.285
because they don't have to give you your address because you already know
1106
01:11:38.545 --> 01:11:39.285
how to
1107
01:11:39.905 --> 01:11:41.525
communicate value to them.
1108
01:11:42.020 --> 01:11:42.520
So,
1109
01:11:44.100 --> 01:11:44.600
yes,
1110
01:11:46.500 --> 01:11:47.720
I'm not sure
1111
01:11:48.180 --> 01:11:48.680
what
1112
01:11:49.485 --> 01:11:51.505
what way it it will
1113
01:11:52.685 --> 01:11:54.045
it will end up being
1114
01:11:55.885 --> 01:12:02.570
I mean, I I hope this will be a standard at one point in the future. I'm just not sure what
1115
01:12:03.110 --> 01:12:03.930
what standard
1116
01:12:04.390 --> 01:12:12.715
we'll hear be. And and, actually, I would like to even go further and bring pay to endpoint in in into the conversation because,
1117
01:12:13.255 --> 01:12:14.555
you know, pay join,
1118
01:12:15.095 --> 01:12:18.860
in my mind at least is just one application of pay to endpoint.
1119
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:23.340
Because what pay to endpoint really means is that you have
1120
01:12:24.545 --> 01:12:25.844
a a peer to peer
1121
01:12:26.385 --> 01:12:26.625
channel
1122
01:12:27.824 --> 01:12:28.324
communication
1123
01:12:28.625 --> 01:12:31.445
channel with another person. So
1124
01:12:32.380 --> 01:12:33.119
I would
1125
01:12:33.500 --> 01:12:34.139
I mean, just
1126
01:12:35.260 --> 01:12:37.280
if if I would have to write
1127
01:12:37.739 --> 01:12:38.239
something
1128
01:12:38.540 --> 01:12:41.760
today regarding this, then what I would do is
1129
01:12:42.205 --> 01:12:43.645
I would I would create
1130
01:12:45.245 --> 01:12:49.425
I I would just just let users to pass around Tor addresses
1131
01:12:49.805 --> 01:12:50.305
and
1132
01:12:51.140 --> 01:12:53.080
and and then communicate there. And
1133
01:12:53.940 --> 01:12:57.960
and the problem with that, of course, that what if the other person is not online?
1134
01:12:59.345 --> 01:12:59.845
And
1135
01:13:01.105 --> 01:13:01.605
my
1136
01:13:02.305 --> 01:13:11.120
answer to that solution is that answer to that problem is that I don't think we have to address that problem because
1137
01:13:11.660 --> 01:13:13.280
everyone's gonna be online.
1138
01:13:14.540 --> 01:13:19.685
I I'm not sure. Maybe it takes 5 years, maybe 10 years, maybe 50 years. But
1139
01:13:20.145 --> 01:13:23.125
at one point in the future, in our lifetime,
1140
01:13:23.960 --> 01:13:32.540
everyone's going to be always online. So that should not be a a problem, I think. Do do you not see, like, in a hostile environment?
1141
01:13:33.125 --> 01:13:35.864
1142
01:13:37.285 --> 01:13:40.824
to to expect to expect someone to run a server 247
1143
01:13:41.205 --> 01:13:42.425
in a private way,
1144
01:13:43.929 --> 01:13:47.230
it's like so it's a way it's a way greater ask
1145
01:13:47.850 --> 01:13:52.590
to expect them to be able to do that without completely doxing themselves. And we already see it happening
1146
01:13:53.034 --> 01:13:56.974
where if you try and use any kind of professional server unless you're using, like,
1147
01:13:57.755 --> 01:14:00.735
not all, like, fucking keto miners, dope ass, fucking,
1148
01:14:01.660 --> 01:14:07.200
you know, pay Bitcoin with no KYC whatsoever. We see creeping KYC happening on all of these server providers.
1149
01:14:08.655 --> 01:14:09.555
1150
01:14:09.935 --> 01:14:21.380
Sorry. I wasn't clear. So what what I wanted to say is that I I think we are gonna be online not with servers, but with our our laptops and our mobile phones, they gonna
1151
01:14:22.160 --> 01:14:27.860
they gonna be online all the time, and and we won't have this problem of having to set up a server.
1152
01:14:29.595 --> 01:14:33.775
1153
01:14:34.155 --> 01:14:38.015
in a relatively private way, host some kind of page or something
1154
01:14:41.490 --> 01:14:45.910
directly from your device without a server. I just wanted to show real quick on the screen,
1155
01:14:46.505 --> 01:14:47.645
this is from NetBlocks,
1156
01:14:48.425 --> 01:14:50.685
which tracks Internet freedom around the world.
1157
01:14:51.304 --> 01:14:53.804
And this is this is the Myanmar government
1158
01:14:54.500 --> 01:14:56.600
turning off Internet every night.
1159
01:14:56.980 --> 01:15:00.120
They turn off the Internet every fucking night for the last
1160
01:15:01.460 --> 01:15:03.055
18 days they've been doing it.
1161
01:15:04.335 --> 01:15:08.195
Like, this is this is not a this is not a theoretical thing,
1162
01:15:09.375 --> 01:15:11.635
and it's gonna become more and more common
1163
01:15:11.960 --> 01:15:16.620
that that when there's protest movements, the Internet's gonna get cut. Do we agree on this?
1164
01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:19.420
1165
01:15:21.405 --> 01:15:22.625
1166
01:15:23.005 --> 01:15:25.025
you know, the more or less connected
1167
01:15:25.325 --> 01:15:25.825
society
1168
01:15:26.365 --> 01:15:36.000
to start it, the bigger problem it is, of course. I mean, you will have, like, satellite, machinist works, ray ham radios, etcetera. But, yeah, of course, it is a problem.
1169
01:15:36.860 --> 01:15:38.720
You need to be able to to
1170
01:15:39.565 --> 01:15:40.065
publish,
1171
01:15:41.485 --> 01:15:44.145
like, you know, again, this is now
1172
01:15:44.525 --> 01:15:45.985
getting into a difficult
1173
01:15:46.330 --> 01:15:52.350
UX question, but again PGP signatures come come into mind here that if you can verify
1174
01:15:53.130 --> 01:15:54.030
if you publish,
1175
01:15:54.330 --> 01:15:54.989
you know,
1176
01:15:55.925 --> 01:15:57.465
across many different,
1177
01:15:58.725 --> 01:16:02.105
media or, like, social networks or anything, signed
1178
01:16:02.725 --> 01:16:09.610
messages with Bitcoin addresses that, you know, this is the donation address of my of of that, kind of
1179
01:16:12.469 --> 01:16:14.329
organization leading donations.
1180
01:16:14.715 --> 01:16:21.855
And then you can you can verify it, and you can see also if it was used or not. I mean, it's not ideal because, you know, you would,
1181
01:16:22.540 --> 01:16:34.395
1182
01:16:34.775 --> 01:16:35.755
pull them. Right?
1183
01:16:36.215 --> 01:16:49.020
1184
01:16:50.305 --> 01:16:56.165
so how many times if when you donate someone, do you are you intending to donate monthly or like weekly?
1185
01:16:56.550 --> 01:16:59.610
You you usually just send a one off transaction. Right? So,
1186
01:17:00.390 --> 01:17:06.250
I mean, I know that there is a proposal now improving b 47 that there which would require no
1187
01:17:07.495 --> 01:17:08.635
notification transaction,
1188
01:17:08.935 --> 01:17:10.475
but then it would need
1189
01:17:11.095 --> 01:17:12.795
this tour channel, which tour
1190
01:17:13.655 --> 01:17:21.619
Nupurra was mentioning, which would need to communicate with the with the senders. So either online or you need to communicate on chain only. Well, you could have, like, a coordinator
1191
01:17:22.135 --> 01:17:28.075
1192
01:17:28.935 --> 01:17:31.195
instead of the notification transaction. Right?
1193
01:17:35.580 --> 01:17:41.040
But let's Do you see what I'm saying? Like, the activist doesn't necessarily need to be online in that scenario.
1194
01:17:42.125 --> 01:17:46.225
They could just be as long as regulators are fine, and it seems like
1195
01:17:46.845 --> 01:17:48.385
they they're they it's
1196
01:17:49.540 --> 01:17:50.040
everyone's
1197
01:17:50.580 --> 01:17:52.520
walking a very tight rope here,
1198
01:17:53.219 --> 01:17:56.200
but it seems like regulators are fine with these blinded coordinators.
1199
01:17:57.525 --> 01:17:59.625
As long as they're fine with blinded coordinators,
1200
01:18:00.005 --> 01:18:02.344
then presumably we could have a blinded
1201
01:18:02.645 --> 01:18:03.945
bip 47 coordinator.
1202
01:18:05.690 --> 01:18:15.305
1203
01:18:15.765 --> 01:18:19.545
tweaking or sorting your address without it knowing it at all.
1204
01:18:20.405 --> 01:18:25.139
But, you know, this is not available at the moment, or I wouldn't know how to set it up for sure.
1205
01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:28.420
1206
01:18:29.235 --> 01:18:35.175
This has been great so far. I wanna keep the conversation moving. I have a bunch of topics I wanna hit on the scratch pad.
1207
01:18:36.594 --> 01:18:37.655
CoinJoin flagging.
1208
01:18:38.360 --> 01:18:40.300
We're seeing this happen more and more.
1209
01:18:41.960 --> 01:18:43.179
Block BlockFind
1210
01:18:43.480 --> 01:18:45.980
now is, like, leading the way in, like, the most draconian,
1211
01:18:46.679 --> 01:18:47.179
screenshots.
1212
01:18:49.145 --> 01:18:49.885
I mean,
1213
01:18:51.225 --> 01:18:58.110
what is it? The Block 5 prohibited transaction screenshot that is circulating? I'll put it on the I'll put it on the screen in a second.
1214
01:18:59.290 --> 01:19:02.430
This idea that that we have these regulated companies,
1215
01:19:04.085 --> 01:19:06.265
that are flagging CoinJoin usage
1216
01:19:06.885 --> 01:19:08.665
both on deposits and withdrawals.
1217
01:19:09.685 --> 01:19:12.825
Some are doing it only in deposits, some are only doing it on withdrawals.
1218
01:19:14.890 --> 01:19:18.270
CoinJoin is obvious on chain. It's very obvious on chain,
1219
01:19:18.810 --> 01:19:19.630
by design.
1220
01:19:20.650 --> 01:19:21.150
What
1221
01:19:22.075 --> 01:19:30.415
where what is your guys' perspective here? Should we expect like, I pretty much now I'm operating under the expectation that I just expect every single regulated entity
1222
01:19:31.900 --> 01:19:32.639
to just
1223
01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:34.159
not accept them.
1224
01:19:35.179 --> 01:19:39.679
And and and that's coming from a person who's every stat I hold has CoinJoin history. So
1225
01:19:41.695 --> 01:19:42.675
it's not FUD.
1226
01:19:44.015 --> 01:19:49.075
1227
01:19:49.455 --> 01:19:49.955
always,
1228
01:19:50.800 --> 01:19:55.540
to my knowledge, an overreach from the from the side of the provider. There is no
1229
01:19:56.400 --> 01:19:57.300
legal requirement
1230
01:19:57.760 --> 01:19:59.860
to flag coin joints because
1231
01:20:00.215 --> 01:20:04.475
they are only missing the history. They're not I mean, at most
1232
01:20:04.855 --> 01:20:06.235
most of the cases,
1233
01:20:08.970 --> 01:20:13.230
they don't have it's, like, not taint in the classical
1234
01:20:14.810 --> 01:20:17.470
sense that, you know, you have been paying
1235
01:20:17.915 --> 01:20:26.469
a darknet market before and the transactions are connected. But it's just the fact that you wanted to be private, And there is no requirement
1236
01:20:26.929 --> 01:20:33.909
to not accept these kind of transactions. Because as I've said in the beginning, you know, if we wouldn't do this, then we are coming to
1237
01:20:34.545 --> 01:20:48.389
such a state of surveillance which have ever been seen before, and we have certainly wouldn't want to be the part of that. So these services, I think, you know, just avoid them. There is no reason to use any of these.
1238
01:20:50.530 --> 01:20:52.230
1239
01:20:54.614 --> 01:20:58.315
1240
01:20:59.255 --> 01:21:00.395
1241
01:21:01.309 --> 01:21:03.650
1242
01:21:04.670 --> 01:21:08.130
the the whole issue to to one question, then
1243
01:21:08.510 --> 01:21:10.050
this is the question is,
1244
01:21:10.735 --> 01:21:13.155
should pry seeking privacy
1245
01:21:13.534 --> 01:21:14.275
be considered
1246
01:21:14.975 --> 01:21:15.475
suspicious?
1247
01:21:16.735 --> 01:21:17.235
And,
1248
01:21:18.020 --> 01:21:18.679
well, unfortunately,
1249
01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:20.119
the answer
1250
01:21:20.739 --> 01:21:24.280
for many of these services is that yes.
1251
01:21:27.295 --> 01:21:27.795
1252
01:21:30.094 --> 01:21:32.755
1253
01:21:34.710 --> 01:21:38.170
as far as I can see, it there is
1254
01:21:38.790 --> 01:21:39.690
no solution
1255
01:21:41.085 --> 01:21:44.385
to this no technical solution to this,
1256
01:21:44.925 --> 01:21:45.425
but
1257
01:21:46.285 --> 01:21:47.905
only social solutions.
1258
01:21:49.005 --> 01:21:49.505
Because
1259
01:21:50.230 --> 01:21:51.050
if you
1260
01:21:52.469 --> 01:21:54.010
if you think about it,
1261
01:21:55.590 --> 01:21:59.130
let's use Monero. Right? That's that's the first answer.
1262
01:21:59.825 --> 01:22:00.325
Well,
1263
01:22:01.505 --> 01:22:06.245
if you are using Monero, then you are privacy seeking, so you should not
1264
01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:10.620
be in that service. So they decide to not even implement it.
1265
01:22:12.200 --> 01:22:16.140
That's a problem. So maybe I'll advertise Monero in a way that
1266
01:22:16.585 --> 01:22:17.405
it's for
1267
01:22:20.264 --> 01:22:24.125
never mind. Okay. So so what test do we have here? We we have
1268
01:22:24.585 --> 01:22:26.045
coin joints, which
1269
01:22:26.550 --> 01:22:29.770
which is which which are obvious on chain and
1270
01:22:30.230 --> 01:22:32.010
that nothing's gonna fix that.
1271
01:22:32.470 --> 01:22:33.210
We have
1272
01:22:34.195 --> 01:22:42.295
pay join and coin swap. Those are different things. Actually, pay join is a kind of coin join, but but in the sense,
1273
01:22:42.820 --> 01:22:45.400
they are the same things because
1274
01:22:46.580 --> 01:22:49.160
what page join does is it
1275
01:22:49.620 --> 01:22:51.080
joins your history
1276
01:22:52.085 --> 01:22:54.105
in the eyes of blockchain analysis
1277
01:22:55.284 --> 01:22:57.625
with another person. And what
1278
01:22:58.485 --> 01:22:59.864
coin swaps do
1279
01:23:00.324 --> 01:23:00.824
is
1280
01:23:01.400 --> 01:23:04.219
it swaps your history with another person.
1281
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:05.500
So,
1282
01:23:07.159 --> 01:23:09.260
well, it's not obvious
1283
01:23:10.395 --> 01:23:13.534
that that coin swap or page only happened.
1284
01:23:15.275 --> 01:23:18.974
But the problem is that if you are swapping with the wrong person, that's
1285
01:23:19.530 --> 01:23:20.830
that's again a problem.
1286
01:23:22.330 --> 01:23:23.550
So so I don't
1287
01:23:24.010 --> 01:23:27.630
oh, and there is lightning network. Actually, the the electrum
1288
01:23:28.315 --> 01:23:30.015
Electrum tool developer,
1289
01:23:31.195 --> 01:23:34.415
said in a conference a couple of years ago that,
1290
01:23:34.795 --> 01:23:41.420
you know, lightning network shouldn't even be called lightning network. It should be called the dark network because
1291
01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:42.360
it's just,
1292
01:23:44.185 --> 01:23:47.645
it just it's basically a social solution to
1293
01:23:48.265 --> 01:23:49.885
to the is privacy
1294
01:23:50.345 --> 01:23:51.165
should be
1295
01:23:51.570 --> 01:23:52.630
should be suspicious
1296
01:23:53.090 --> 01:23:57.430
that you can say, well, I'm transacting with Lightning because I want to
1297
01:23:57.810 --> 01:24:00.790
I want want it cheap, and I want it fast.
1298
01:24:01.365 --> 01:24:03.625
But on the other hand, I mean, there
1299
01:24:04.165 --> 01:24:08.665
were lightning network know your customer and and and and and similar,
1300
01:24:09.800 --> 01:24:11.500
1301
01:24:11.960 --> 01:24:14.460
I mean, I think I think we're gonna see
1302
01:24:15.800 --> 01:24:19.855
I'm not trying to, like, it's it's so it's super frustrating. I,
1303
01:24:20.475 --> 01:24:24.575
you know, I do it to myself. I'm a little bit of masochist. I like talking about the hard topics,
1304
01:24:25.480 --> 01:24:27.260
so I tend to have, you know,
1305
01:24:27.639 --> 01:24:30.940
I I tend to dive right into every single drama topic,
1306
01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:37.415
and, you know, so I get chirped out all the time. But I do expect, you know, I think we're gonna watch lightning.
1307
01:24:37.875 --> 01:24:56.045
We're gonna watch regulated companies try and capture the fuck out of lightning, and the governments that they report to try and capture the fuck out of lightning. Like, I'm talking about, you know, pub keys that are white listed versus pub keys that are black listed, like big documents, you know, databases of of who's using what, channel capacities, all this different stuff.
1308
01:24:57.225 --> 01:25:00.605
But I but I do agree that, you know, Lightning has
1309
01:25:02.160 --> 01:25:04.500
significant significant privacy improvements,
1310
01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:12.355
that that could be taken advantage of there. I do think 2 things here that I think I'm kind of curious on your opinion of
1311
01:25:12.735 --> 01:25:14.115
from from both of you is,
1312
01:25:16.550 --> 01:25:19.610
the the the first thing is I think, ultimately,
1313
01:25:20.070 --> 01:25:20.809
my expectation
1314
01:25:21.190 --> 01:25:24.250
is that regulated entities are gonna basically
1315
01:25:26.735 --> 01:25:28.755
at at least discourage self custody,
1316
01:25:30.255 --> 01:25:32.195
across the board, if not completely
1317
01:25:32.655 --> 01:25:37.410
not allow it. Right? And we already see that happening with services like Robinhood or PayPal
1318
01:25:37.790 --> 01:25:38.929
where you can't withdraw.
1319
01:25:39.790 --> 01:25:44.370
They might allow you deposit, but they won't let you withdraw Bitcoin and hold it yourself.
1320
01:25:44.945 --> 01:25:48.645
I think that's the natural end goal if we have any kind of Bitcoin,
1321
01:25:49.585 --> 01:25:52.325
as as as it becomes easier to use Bitcoin privately,
1322
01:25:53.190 --> 01:26:07.724
the natural end goal is gonna be that they're just gonna try and cut it off, and they're just gonna try and make it so regulated entities only let you have numbers on the screen and pay approved people or pay approved merchants, yada yada yada. The second I almost I feel like we should reframe this whole discussion.
1323
01:26:08.700 --> 01:26:12.000
I don't think the fact that CoinJoin is obvious on chain is
1324
01:26:12.460 --> 01:26:14.000
this massive negative.
1325
01:26:15.585 --> 01:26:19.284
I mean, the standard for protecting speech is encryption.
1326
01:26:20.385 --> 01:26:25.520
If you if if you use encryption, if I send Open Arms an encrypted message,
1327
01:26:25.900 --> 01:26:26.560
it is
1328
01:26:27.020 --> 01:26:37.905
absolutely obvious to anyone watching that that message that we're using encryption. They don't know what the contents of of of the message are, but they absolutely know that we're using encryption.
1329
01:26:38.365 --> 01:26:42.545
How is that any different than them absolutely knowing we're using CoinJoin,
1330
01:26:43.090 --> 01:26:49.750
but, you know, if the implementation works well, they they they can't tell this, you know, the history of the funds? How is that any fucking different?
1331
01:26:52.385 --> 01:26:57.364
1332
01:26:57.665 --> 01:26:59.445
considered suspicious, and
1333
01:27:00.260 --> 01:27:05.800
and and the best way would be that if seeking privacy would be the default, then
1334
01:27:06.420 --> 01:27:07.480
no one could be
1335
01:27:07.905 --> 01:27:10.005
able to make this argument. Right?
1336
01:27:12.465 --> 01:27:14.805
1337
01:27:15.270 --> 01:27:17.030
1338
01:27:17.670 --> 01:27:19.449
you know, lightning paying with lightning
1339
01:27:19.830 --> 01:27:20.489
does have
1340
01:27:21.830 --> 01:27:22.570
much better
1341
01:27:24.665 --> 01:27:25.965
values here because
1342
01:27:26.585 --> 01:27:29.165
you just don't see there is no way to see
1343
01:27:29.625 --> 01:27:33.840
where the sets are coming from. So the sets on lightning are much more fungible.
1344
01:27:34.940 --> 01:27:37.760
And this is because you would need active
1345
01:27:38.885 --> 01:27:40.025
real time surveillance
1346
01:27:42.085 --> 01:27:49.710
to to prove all the public channels and even then you wouldn't be able to see maybe you would you could estimate where,
1347
01:27:50.490 --> 01:27:53.870
you know, which was the first public channel where the
1348
01:27:55.195 --> 01:28:00.255
payment is coming from, but this adoption increases as the number of payments increases as we introduce,
1349
01:28:00.635 --> 01:28:01.775
you know, some kind of,
1350
01:28:02.555 --> 01:28:03.775
things which do
1351
01:28:04.700 --> 01:28:07.500
fail payments randomly, for example, or, like, you know, rebel
1352
01:28:08.060 --> 01:28:10.400
ultimate rebalances and things. They do
1353
01:28:11.195 --> 01:28:13.535
change the picture so often and,
1354
01:28:15.515 --> 01:28:16.015
unpredictably
1355
01:28:16.475 --> 01:28:21.800
that this is, you know, this is not really realistic. It's just very good to, know, have these articles,
1356
01:28:25.860 --> 01:28:26.360
researching
1357
01:28:26.740 --> 01:28:29.264
it and, you know, I love to read them but also
1358
01:28:29.565 --> 01:28:30.784
it it is to
1359
01:28:31.165 --> 01:28:39.880
see the pain points and, you know, be able to to work more on it. So and lightning is is is I see it as a solution at least to spend.
1360
01:28:41.060 --> 01:28:41.800
But then
1361
01:28:42.980 --> 01:28:47.865
the same thing applies that if you don't apply if you don't allow coin joint payments
1362
01:28:48.245 --> 01:28:50.345
or coin joint funds to be deposited,
1363
01:28:50.965 --> 01:28:51.465
then
1364
01:28:53.060 --> 01:28:53.800
you wouldn't
1365
01:28:55.060 --> 01:29:00.280
allow lightning deposits either. And if you can see it, this, for example, with the
1366
01:29:00.825 --> 01:29:05.325
with bottle pay is like, you know, came to the UK market straight on,
1367
01:29:06.185 --> 01:29:09.070
and in a couple of days they started to block coin joints
1368
01:29:09.389 --> 01:29:12.050
because they probably, you know, did it
1369
01:29:12.429 --> 01:29:15.010
from I mean, yeah, I I I didn't go into that why,
1370
01:29:15.389 --> 01:29:16.849
but it's a bad thing.
1371
01:29:17.345 --> 01:29:25.960
And they allow lightning trans lightning deposits, but it's very limited. Like, you can like, a couple of pounds you can deposit only. Right? So
1372
01:29:26.260 --> 01:29:34.520
obviously it's it's it's the same thing. If there is even there there is a thing which could be private, or let's see that you know why would anyone
1373
01:29:35.495 --> 01:29:37.195
allow Monero deposits
1374
01:29:37.495 --> 01:29:42.155
if they don't allow coin joint payments and lightning deposits either.
1375
01:29:42.550 --> 01:29:48.490
So it's the same problem. We need to step step up and Can I just iron, steel man that for a second?
1376
01:29:49.030 --> 01:29:49.530
Okay.
1377
01:29:50.985 --> 01:29:57.565
1378
01:29:58.025 --> 01:30:02.829
Okay. That is not a there's the that agreement has no endorsement,
1379
01:30:03.849 --> 01:30:09.645
or paid promotion involved in it. My goal is to try and make that product as possible, so just I want that to be aware.
1380
01:30:11.625 --> 01:30:15.945
You know, obviously, I disagree with with their idea to to to Blockcoin join,
1381
01:30:16.665 --> 01:30:17.165
deposits.
1382
01:30:17.730 --> 01:30:22.450
I I literally cannot use the service besides the fact that it's UK only, but I could not use the service,
1383
01:30:23.090 --> 01:30:24.630
to deposit funds into,
1384
01:30:25.090 --> 01:30:26.950
because of of my CoinJoin history.
1385
01:30:27.735 --> 01:30:33.355
So I wanna steal, man, your your thing about so I say this all the time too. I agree. The the
1386
01:30:34.295 --> 01:30:38.120
the ultimate the ultimate end goal is, like, if if,
1387
01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:42.700
if a service is gonna discriminate against something that is privacy
1388
01:30:43.755 --> 01:30:44.895
preserving deposit,
1389
01:30:45.675 --> 01:30:47.375
they're gonna do it across the board.
1390
01:30:48.635 --> 01:30:49.375
A Monero
1391
01:30:49.915 --> 01:30:52.895
promoter would tell you though, and they've told me many times,
1392
01:30:54.460 --> 01:31:00.960
and it's actually a very valid point, I think, and I'm curious on your opinion, is Kraken's a perfect example. Kraken
1393
01:31:01.885 --> 01:31:04.625
has accepted Monero deposits for years now.
1394
01:31:05.965 --> 01:31:10.545
Also, at the same time, they have active contracts with chain surveillance firms,
1395
01:31:11.830 --> 01:31:13.610
where they are discriminating
1396
01:31:13.910 --> 01:31:14.410
against,
1397
01:31:15.590 --> 01:31:20.695
user deposits. Right? They're, like, checking Bitcoin history, but at the same time accepting Monero deposits.
1398
01:31:21.415 --> 01:31:29.600
So is there is that true? Are we correct in that regard? Or is it just, like, a a low time preference thing, like, it'll happen eventually, it just hasn't happened yet?
1399
01:31:31.040 --> 01:31:32.720
1400
01:31:33.840 --> 01:31:34.340
allow,
1401
01:31:35.120 --> 01:31:37.220
KYC free lightning deposits
1402
01:31:37.600 --> 01:31:38.820
to no limit,
1403
01:31:39.145 --> 01:31:48.925
and you can withdraw Bitcoin as well if you pay the fee. You can even withdraw liquid or you can do the other ways around to deposit liquid or lightning and withdraw a light
1404
01:31:50.090 --> 01:31:54.750
or liquid. Yeah. So any combination. Right? You don't even need to KYC for it.
1405
01:31:55.690 --> 01:31:58.750
But that doesn't prove the point that if you want to
1406
01:32:00.635 --> 01:32:04.655
if you are allowed and we don't step up to stop
1407
01:32:05.195 --> 01:32:07.935
you know, if we allow people or governments
1408
01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:10.860
to strip
1409
01:32:12.119 --> 01:32:16.780
us from our rights to be private, then we are in the Orwell 1984.
1410
01:32:17.515 --> 01:32:19.135
And, you know, that is
1411
01:32:19.755 --> 01:32:23.455
not acceptable, and that's not because of the if the technology is flawed,
1412
01:32:24.830 --> 01:32:27.730
but because that's what the regulators
1413
01:32:28.270 --> 01:32:29.250
put to us.
1414
01:32:32.815 --> 01:32:34.755
1415
01:32:35.135 --> 01:32:36.675
maybe only one
1416
01:32:37.055 --> 01:32:37.875
one solution
1417
01:32:38.655 --> 01:32:40.835
that I can see is that
1418
01:32:41.410 --> 01:32:46.630
we build better sheet, we build build better software, and we outcompete them. And
1419
01:32:47.250 --> 01:32:47.750
if
1420
01:32:48.130 --> 01:32:52.845
if we are right if we are right about that, users are going to
1421
01:32:53.705 --> 01:32:59.005
choose our solutions because we are better than they are going to choose our solutions. And
1422
01:32:59.610 --> 01:33:00.350
and, well,
1423
01:33:01.369 --> 01:33:03.469
privacy becomes the norm and
1424
01:33:04.250 --> 01:33:06.030
not a not a crime.
1425
01:33:07.735 --> 01:33:09.995
1426
01:33:10.455 --> 01:33:14.155
maximize the ability to do peers to peers transactions freely,
1427
01:33:15.070 --> 01:33:16.210
Freely as in freedom.
1428
01:33:17.870 --> 01:33:25.285
And then, you know, we can oppose the regulators because we don't need to use services. We don't need to participate in k y KYC.
1429
01:33:25.745 --> 01:33:32.485
I don't even need to consider sending coin coin join UTXOs to to the exchange because I don't use exchanges.
1430
01:33:33.599 --> 01:33:35.219
And Right. Not going to be either.
1431
01:33:35.520 --> 01:33:39.699
1432
01:33:40.245 --> 01:33:43.945
any Bitcoin into any regulated service ever, period.
1433
01:33:45.364 --> 01:33:49.864
And I have no intention to ever do that in the future. It's an exit. You have to exit the system.
1434
01:33:50.550 --> 01:34:01.785
But do you agree here well, I guess, do you agree that there's, like, a sense of urgency here? Like, I feel like there's a sense of urgency. Like, we need Bitcoiners to be aware of this shit. They need to be aware of it yesterday, and they we need to increase adoption.
1435
01:34:02.725 --> 01:34:11.940
I'm about to pull up a this is Kraken, you know, they have shitcoin issues, but, Jesse Powell, the Kraken founder, has been very outspoken
1436
01:34:15.235 --> 01:34:20.855
about information collection and being against that and and pushing back against government overreach.
1437
01:34:21.620 --> 01:34:28.520
And in that regard, they're they lead the way with their information disclosures in terms of of how much information is asked,
1438
01:34:29.745 --> 01:34:31.125
from them from governments.
1439
01:34:31.665 --> 01:34:36.165
So I'm putting on the screen for the people who are watching live or watching the video version,
1440
01:34:37.950 --> 01:34:39.010
This is their
1441
01:34:39.390 --> 01:34:40.850
law enforcement request.
1442
01:34:42.830 --> 01:34:45.490
It's a fucking issue, man. Like, this is crazy.
1443
01:34:49.225 --> 01:34:49.725
1444
01:34:52.665 --> 01:35:06.515
1445
01:35:07.375 --> 01:35:07.875
fungible
1446
01:35:08.255 --> 01:35:12.515
coins are more valuable, the ones which are trace traceable and tied to an identity.
1447
01:35:14.120 --> 01:35:15.500
And not because,
1448
01:35:15.800 --> 01:35:26.775
you know, one you can sell and exchange another one not, but because the fungible ones you can spend as you like without exposing your history and exposing your your position and privacy.
1449
01:35:29.690 --> 01:35:31.310
1450
01:35:31.770 --> 01:35:35.310
Matt is is is coming back to to the same
1451
01:35:36.010 --> 01:35:40.495
same similar topic all all the time, which is I think there is
1452
01:35:41.275 --> 01:35:42.095
a there is
1453
01:35:42.475 --> 01:35:44.415
a there is a conflict between
1454
01:35:47.010 --> 01:35:47.830
some developers
1455
01:35:49.889 --> 01:35:51.750
who who acknowledge that
1456
01:35:52.130 --> 01:35:55.270
trusted third parties are security risk,
1457
01:35:55.815 --> 01:36:00.395
and so we should stay as far away from them as possible
1458
01:36:00.935 --> 01:36:01.995
and not do anything.
1459
01:36:02.615 --> 01:36:04.235
But on the other hand,
1460
01:36:04.730 --> 01:36:05.469
you know, celebrities
1461
01:36:06.090 --> 01:36:09.070
are posting about Bitcoin. Elon Musk is
1462
01:36:09.530 --> 01:36:10.829
is bringing up,
1463
01:36:12.545 --> 01:36:15.685
bringing in a flood of new users. And
1464
01:36:16.385 --> 01:36:17.365
and, you know,
1465
01:36:17.745 --> 01:36:21.125
if you think about in it it that way then,
1466
01:36:22.770 --> 01:36:25.670
sure, trusted third parties are security risk.
1467
01:36:26.930 --> 01:36:27.430
But
1468
01:36:28.210 --> 01:36:29.670
how can you maximize
1469
01:36:30.130 --> 01:36:31.864
the good that you can
1470
01:36:32.165 --> 01:36:35.065
can do? And that would be like
1471
01:36:36.405 --> 01:36:38.824
like trying to be a user friendly applications
1472
01:36:39.205 --> 01:36:39.445
that
1473
01:36:40.440 --> 01:36:41.820
well, at at first,
1474
01:36:42.679 --> 01:36:44.440
make sure it's non custody.
1475
01:36:46.199 --> 01:36:49.820
Hopefully, I I think that's that's a good line there.
1476
01:36:50.735 --> 01:36:51.875
The other thing is
1477
01:36:52.574 --> 01:36:56.034
try to improve your the privacy of your users.
1478
01:36:58.450 --> 01:37:06.150
What else do we have? Oh, yeah. The people at the Lightning Network, they want to fix the scaling issue. And and the last
1479
01:37:06.685 --> 01:37:07.185
last
1480
01:37:07.485 --> 01:37:11.265
front here, which no one really talks about anymore, is that
1481
01:37:11.565 --> 01:37:12.065
decentralized
1482
01:37:12.445 --> 01:37:12.925
the miners,
1483
01:37:14.240 --> 01:37:14.740
because
1484
01:37:15.200 --> 01:37:18.340
we kinda lost that far at at this point.
1485
01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:22.100
So so so, yeah, there is a sense of urgency. Right? And
1486
01:37:22.825 --> 01:37:26.045
and if we we consider that we don't
1487
01:37:26.505 --> 01:37:28.445
don't touch any
1488
01:37:28.905 --> 01:37:33.070
any any trusted third party, we don't consider them at all,
1489
01:37:33.610 --> 01:37:34.110
then,
1490
01:37:34.410 --> 01:37:37.710
you don't maximize the good that you can do in the world.
1491
01:37:38.810 --> 01:37:39.310
However,
1492
01:37:40.864 --> 01:37:47.445
just just just solely on the blacklisting list issue, I I I believe if we build
1493
01:37:48.119 --> 01:37:49.739
stuff into our software
1494
01:37:50.040 --> 01:37:50.860
that is
1495
01:37:52.119 --> 01:37:53.659
that is considering
1496
01:37:54.040 --> 01:37:55.579
the blacklisting, then
1497
01:37:57.215 --> 01:38:03.475
that's the lowest level where we can be at staffing to and acknowledge the blacklisting issue, and and that's
1498
01:38:04.050 --> 01:38:06.070
that's that's how you lose it.
1499
01:38:08.850 --> 01:38:15.305
1500
01:38:15.845 --> 01:38:18.825
You wanna use trust minimized services as much as possible.
1501
01:38:19.685 --> 01:38:22.185
Anyone who uses the word trustless is probably
1502
01:38:22.650 --> 01:38:27.550
acting in bad faith because there's very few things in our life that actually have zero trust whatsoever.
1503
01:38:29.130 --> 01:38:30.750
But there there is an interesting
1504
01:38:31.210 --> 01:38:31.710
disconnect
1505
01:38:32.175 --> 01:38:32.675
between,
1506
01:38:36.655 --> 01:38:37.635
Bitcoin Twitter
1507
01:38:38.415 --> 01:38:40.115
and the real world
1508
01:38:40.540 --> 01:38:41.280
where we
1509
01:38:42.380 --> 01:38:50.079
see the overwhelming majority of of privacy seeking Bitcoin users, especially before Wasabi existed, but even now,
1510
01:38:52.525 --> 01:38:54.705
choose to go with custodial mixers,
1511
01:38:56.205 --> 01:38:57.745
which have, you know,
1512
01:38:58.400 --> 01:39:03.860
obviously, like, they've they've been accused of being honey pots in the past. You have to have complete trust in them,
1513
01:39:05.120 --> 01:39:12.805
but they they a 100% break the the transaction graph. So I I would there there is there's a nuanced argument here,
1514
01:39:14.710 --> 01:39:21.850
and and and Open Arms kinda said it on, on his own. Right? And someone said in the comments, I think it was I think it was Kiteminer said in the comments,
1515
01:39:22.435 --> 01:39:24.455
Wallet of Satoshi, like, could custodial
1516
01:39:24.755 --> 01:39:25.415
a custodial
1517
01:39:25.715 --> 01:39:26.215
wallet,
1518
01:39:27.795 --> 01:39:35.040
provides a a level of privacy that that that breaks that transaction graph, but then you have to trust that entity. Right?
1519
01:39:36.620 --> 01:39:40.240
1520
01:39:41.364 --> 01:39:43.304
you asked me what I learned. And
1521
01:39:43.605 --> 01:39:52.800
one of the assumption that I had when launching wasabi is that, you know, it's it's it's just like custody on mixers. It's just
1522
01:39:53.820 --> 01:39:54.639
does not
1523
01:39:55.179 --> 01:39:57.440
need a third party trust, and
1524
01:39:58.465 --> 01:40:07.605
it it and it's it's non custody. Yeah. And, you know, I thought that, well, I'm gonna launch for savvy, and everyone's gonna come
1525
01:40:08.270 --> 01:40:09.010
right away
1526
01:40:09.949 --> 01:40:11.409
and start using it.
1527
01:40:11.710 --> 01:40:15.809
But that didn't happen. It took, like, a year to get a decent volume
1528
01:40:16.510 --> 01:40:17.730
at wasabi, and
1529
01:40:18.415 --> 01:40:21.155
and and the castor diar mixers are still the
1530
01:40:22.415 --> 01:40:24.175
the the majority of the
1531
01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:30.900
1532
01:40:33.054 --> 01:40:35.635
1533
01:40:35.935 --> 01:40:40.355
I I don't know if they are correct, but back then my calculations were that
1534
01:40:41.280 --> 01:40:44.179
if we have 100 people in the coin join, then
1535
01:40:45.199 --> 01:40:47.540
taking the cast of the almixer volume,
1536
01:40:48.175 --> 01:40:52.035
we would be able to do a 100 people coin join in every
1537
01:40:52.495 --> 01:40:53.715
3 to 5 minutes.
1538
01:40:55.215 --> 01:40:56.755
Well, we are not there.
1539
01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:06.100
1540
01:41:06.465 --> 01:41:09.925
the, you know, the so called Bitcoin fanatics like you call them.
1541
01:41:12.705 --> 01:41:15.765
1542
01:41:16.120 --> 01:41:17.580
the volume on
1543
01:41:18.440 --> 01:41:21.080
on costidore mixers. I mean, wouldn't that be just,
1544
01:41:21.719 --> 01:41:24.600
so called, like, wash wash mixing, so called? You know, you just,
1545
01:41:25.195 --> 01:41:29.375
1546
01:41:30.555 --> 01:41:35.930
we we can't we can't really definitively prove the the volume of any of these tools.
1547
01:41:36.790 --> 01:41:42.330
We do. Because there there is an incentive that is is is built into these centralized,
1548
01:41:43.895 --> 01:41:46.875
coordinated coin joints to inflate volumes, and
1549
01:41:47.415 --> 01:41:49.034
and you you can absolutely,
1550
01:41:51.520 --> 01:41:52.960
you you can you can absolutely,
1551
01:41:53.280 --> 01:41:55.280
inflate volumes on join market as well. Right?
1552
01:41:57.200 --> 01:41:58.660
But if you look at, like,
1553
01:41:59.455 --> 01:42:01.614
Bitcoin talk signatures and stuff,
1554
01:42:01.935 --> 01:42:03.235
Bitcoin talk conversations,
1555
01:42:03.535 --> 01:42:04.035
dread,
1556
01:42:04.415 --> 01:42:08.114
like you look at the forums, you look at, like, the dark net market forums and stuff,
1557
01:42:08.870 --> 01:42:15.770
people don't realize like the 1st custodial mixer, the 1st really widespread used custodial mixer was Silk Road. Right?
1558
01:42:16.855 --> 01:42:20.555
You see the users talking about it. They're use they're people are using it.
1559
01:42:21.574 --> 01:42:22.795
1560
01:42:23.320 --> 01:42:25.739
I mean, the other other thing is to
1561
01:42:26.360 --> 01:42:29.660
is just how small, but incentive to participate.
1562
01:42:30.040 --> 01:42:32.219
I mean, you know, I I I feel that
1563
01:42:32.645 --> 01:42:41.360
with the Lightning Network as well as with joint markets that you can without giving up up custody of your funds, you can participate in something which
1564
01:42:41.920 --> 01:42:42.659
you can
1565
01:42:43.360 --> 01:42:45.860
think I think it is beneficial either
1566
01:42:46.320 --> 01:42:50.100
like providing liquidity on the light network for routing and people to pastry
1567
01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:54.764
or for coin join liquidity in in join market, and you can actually
1568
01:42:55.065 --> 01:42:59.005
earn make some set of shoes out of it. It is a good feeling. And it also,
1569
01:42:59.340 --> 01:43:23.395
you know, happens because you have these people who have this mindset that you your money should do something. Right? This comes from a fiat mindset of basically from an inflationary currency. But there are these things which you can do without giving up the custody and your security of your funds and even you can I mean, for both things, you get you get some usefulness out of it? If you have your funds on lightning, you have basically the most liquid
1570
01:43:23.875 --> 01:43:28.935
way of having Bitcoin around in your custody. And in coin join,
1571
01:43:29.715 --> 01:43:35.930
as even as a maker, as a liquidity provider, you are increasing the privacy of your of your funds.
1572
01:43:36.710 --> 01:43:49.000
1573
01:43:49.480 --> 01:43:51.340
like Wasabi and Samurai
1574
01:43:51.960 --> 01:44:02.915
is to make it seem like there's more people using it, and then they those coordinators make more in fees. And in Wasabi, there's actually because the fees scale up with the the more
1575
01:44:03.454 --> 01:44:06.114
the more inputs in a in a coin join,
1576
01:44:06.610 --> 01:44:08.950
there's actually a reverse incentive where if
1577
01:44:09.890 --> 01:44:11.350
if they were to increase
1578
01:44:11.730 --> 01:44:17.155
the volume, they would make more in fees in addition to just making it perceived more common.
1579
01:44:17.695 --> 01:44:23.315
With join market, that's not the case because you don't have a centralized coordinator, you have this maker taker structure.
1580
01:44:24.490 --> 01:44:26.750
What I meant to what what I meant is
1581
01:44:27.050 --> 01:44:29.950
I didn't mean to imply that there's an incentive to
1582
01:44:32.435 --> 01:44:39.495
to to in inflate joint market numbers. What I meant to say is is that the volume numbers should be treated as an upper bound,
1583
01:44:40.275 --> 01:44:41.335
because you can
1584
01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.820
a let's let's run through a hypothetical. A hypothetical
1585
01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:46.020
being
1586
01:44:46.640 --> 01:44:50.020
a major chain surveillance firm that is valued at $3,000,000,000
1587
01:44:52.895 --> 01:44:55.075
is is is providing maker
1588
01:44:55.535 --> 01:44:56.035
maker
1589
01:44:56.895 --> 01:45:01.780
liquidity on on join market to have a better insight on what's happening over there.
1590
01:45:02.720 --> 01:45:22.580
And they're also running a taker bot that runs through the maker to make it seem like more people are using join markets, so people feel more comfortable and come over there and end up using them as a maker. So there there it should it should always be treated as the upper bound. It should not be treated as a hard number. It should be treated as, okay, we know there's not more than this volume.
1591
01:45:23.755 --> 01:45:28.975
There's there's there could be as much as this volume, but it's probably somewhere below that.
1592
01:45:29.755 --> 01:45:30.575
Would you agree,
1593
01:45:31.190 --> 01:45:32.010
both of you?
1594
01:45:33.190 --> 01:45:38.010
1595
01:45:38.755 --> 01:45:41.574
you know, money which is, I mean, you know, they
1596
01:45:41.875 --> 01:45:43.815
they got the service because they paid for it.
1597
01:45:44.275 --> 01:45:47.255
Obviously, this is not good. But then you would
1598
01:45:49.270 --> 01:45:50.730
yeah. Also you don't
1599
01:45:51.350 --> 01:45:52.650
need to be closed
1600
01:45:53.110 --> 01:45:53.610
into
1601
01:45:54.310 --> 01:45:55.290
one of the,
1602
01:45:57.155 --> 01:46:02.935
you know, gardens of one solution to this. Not speaking of, like, one coin joint implementation
1603
01:46:03.475 --> 01:46:07.500
and also not speak about one privacy technique. Right? You can combine nowadays.
1604
01:46:07.880 --> 01:46:23.820
I think I do think there's a best is to coin join and go to lightning. And then when you go off go from go out from lightning because you close the channel with the balance, you go back to coinjoin. And then again, you only have to only open another channel when you have CoinJoin those funds.
1605
01:46:24.840 --> 01:46:27.340
And, you know, it's just, you need to
1606
01:46:28.120 --> 01:46:29.420
jump between these things.
1607
01:46:32.565 --> 01:46:33.385
No problem.
1608
01:46:33.764 --> 01:46:37.864
1609
01:46:38.210 --> 01:46:45.429
Like, I I I I believe you guys are I I love your team. I don't think you're I would never call you a spook. I I I don't,
1610
01:46:46.405 --> 01:46:50.025
I don't like that that these things always devolve into personal attacks.
1611
01:46:50.485 --> 01:46:57.520
But do you agree with me that, like, that as as a coordinator in the Wasabi implementation, the coordinator is able to
1612
01:46:58.400 --> 01:47:03.940
they they have a broken incentive where if they inflate the volume numbers, if they run their own funds through
1613
01:47:04.405 --> 01:47:04.905
Wasabi,
1614
01:47:07.205 --> 01:47:08.825
the the fees are increased?
1615
01:47:10.725 --> 01:47:12.425
1616
01:47:12.930 --> 01:47:14.630
would like to go even
1617
01:47:15.090 --> 01:47:18.630
deeper into this this topic with you because
1618
01:47:20.345 --> 01:47:20.845
because
1619
01:47:21.305 --> 01:47:21.705
if
1620
01:47:22.665 --> 01:47:27.485
so so so I was research I was trying to familiarize myself with your views. And
1621
01:47:27.940 --> 01:47:30.520
and if I'm not mistaken, then
1622
01:47:33.139 --> 01:47:34.280
this topic
1623
01:47:34.739 --> 01:47:35.239
is
1624
01:47:35.804 --> 01:47:37.185
your main criticism
1625
01:47:37.565 --> 01:47:39.585
of Wasabi. Is is that correct?
1626
01:47:40.045 --> 01:47:43.905
1627
01:47:44.410 --> 01:47:46.030
that I think the user defaults,
1628
01:47:46.490 --> 01:47:49.950
which we we touched on earlier, I think the user defaults are
1629
01:47:52.855 --> 01:48:01.835
are are are not adequate. Like, I feel like when I onboard someone onto Wasabi, I have to tell them, like, a bunch of a bunch of best practices that they have to change after they get onboarded.
1630
01:48:04.310 --> 01:48:08.730
1631
01:48:09.365 --> 01:48:12.985
at first, and then we'll see where we are going from here. So,
1632
01:48:15.765 --> 01:48:17.065
let let me see.
1633
01:48:17.970 --> 01:48:25.670
Maybe I just I just bring up a few statistics that may be may be relevant later. No. I mean, before we get there, just, like, really quick, like
1634
01:48:26.145 --> 01:48:42.300
1635
01:48:43.245 --> 01:48:52.780
Uh-huh. Exactly. And And the fees are paid to the Wasabi coordinator, which is the the coordinator itself. So, obviously, it's not providing civil resistance
1636
01:48:53.160 --> 01:49:00.155
to the coordinator itself unless unless on chain fees are high. I'll give you that. But on chain fees have not been high in the past.
1637
01:49:00.715 --> 01:49:03.054
1638
01:49:04.635 --> 01:49:05.375
Okay. Because
1639
01:49:06.155 --> 01:49:08.735
I agree with you that there is an economical
1640
01:49:09.080 --> 01:49:10.940
incentive for the coordinator to do
1641
01:49:11.240 --> 01:49:12.140
to to participate,
1642
01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:14.780
but I do not agree with the implications
1643
01:49:15.320 --> 01:49:15.820
there.
1644
01:49:17.895 --> 01:49:18.635
But anyhow,
1645
01:49:19.054 --> 01:49:20.535
be because because it's
1646
01:49:22.055 --> 01:49:24.155
would you like to say something else?
1647
01:49:24.909 --> 01:49:30.530
1648
01:49:30.909 --> 01:49:37.325
I'm just saying that, you know, that's what makes it trust minimized service rather than something that's trustless. I mean, you have to
1649
01:49:37.945 --> 01:49:40.925
like, we're trusting that you're not sibling your own rounds.
1650
01:49:41.740 --> 01:49:42.640
1651
01:49:43.580 --> 01:49:44.080
So
1652
01:49:45.980 --> 01:49:47.040
would you mind
1653
01:49:48.140 --> 01:49:51.280
explaining what do you mean by CPL attack?
1654
01:49:53.245 --> 01:49:56.545
1655
01:49:57.885 --> 01:49:59.265
to increase the fees
1656
01:50:00.310 --> 01:50:01.850
of of your own rounds.
1657
01:50:02.150 --> 01:50:04.650
Right? Because because the the the historically,
1658
01:50:05.510 --> 01:50:07.690
as a user of of Wasabi,
1659
01:50:09.135 --> 01:50:12.035
I paid you a large amount in coinjoin fees,
1660
01:50:13.375 --> 01:50:14.995
and those coinjoin fees
1661
01:50:15.590 --> 01:50:18.650
are significantly higher than on chain fees I paid.
1662
01:50:19.590 --> 01:50:23.290
It's it's not even close. Like, the like like, when the on chain fees
1663
01:50:23.704 --> 01:50:30.925
flip the CoinJoin fees, then that's a a proper incentive, and I think that will happen in the future. It just has not happened yet.
1664
01:50:32.960 --> 01:50:35.700
1665
01:50:36.400 --> 01:50:38.980
if you think about it, let's say, 99
1666
01:50:39.845 --> 01:50:41.785
honest users and one coordinator
1667
01:50:42.245 --> 01:50:44.025
peer. And and the question is,
1668
01:50:44.565 --> 01:50:46.745
does it make sense to add the coordinator
1669
01:50:47.205 --> 01:50:47.705
peer
1670
01:50:48.469 --> 01:50:56.170
there? Do we do we get would we get more money out of the the coin joints than what we put in?
1671
01:50:56.655 --> 01:50:58.275
Right? That's that's the question.
1672
01:51:00.094 --> 01:51:00.594
1673
01:51:00.895 --> 01:51:02.675
1674
01:51:03.900 --> 01:51:05.920
We would get more money,
1675
01:51:06.540 --> 01:51:08.720
out of the coin join if we would participate.
1676
01:51:09.660 --> 01:51:10.640
Okay. So
1677
01:51:11.100 --> 01:51:17.014
let's let's look at the lower end here, which is there is only one honest user.
1678
01:51:17.795 --> 01:51:21.094
So would it make sense for us to
1679
01:51:21.400 --> 01:51:22.540
to add the coordinator
1680
01:51:23.080 --> 01:51:23.580
peer?
1681
01:51:25.800 --> 01:51:26.780
1682
01:51:28.280 --> 01:51:30.620
1683
01:51:32.135 --> 01:51:36.235
does it make sense the coordinator to coin join with that honest user?
1684
01:51:37.415 --> 01:51:42.850
1685
01:51:43.310 --> 01:51:47.969
The user pays for it. Of course, it would. Yeah. It would still it'd still be worth it. You'd still make money.
1686
01:51:49.145 --> 01:51:49.885
1687
01:51:50.344 --> 01:51:52.445
also pays network fees.
1688
01:51:53.145 --> 01:51:55.565
1689
01:51:55.950 --> 01:51:58.610
if network fees go up, which they have been recently,
1690
01:51:59.550 --> 01:52:00.050
then
1691
01:52:00.510 --> 01:52:09.804
then all of a sudden the incentive starts working itself out. But historically and also the other thing is if rounds are routinely full, if they're hitting the 100100
1692
01:52:10.505 --> 01:52:16.900
UTXO cap, you're leaving fees on the table if you try and come in, but both of those things haven't been the case.
1693
01:52:18.640 --> 01:52:21.285
The other thing is this is not just Wasabi
1694
01:52:21.665 --> 01:52:24.725
this is not just your coordinator. There there are other coordinators
1695
01:52:26.065 --> 01:52:28.005
that you can use with Wasabi.
1696
01:52:28.460 --> 01:52:32.159
All those coordinators have the broken incentive to inflate their own volume.
1697
01:52:36.035 --> 01:52:37.815
1698
01:52:38.195 --> 01:52:40.615
to go exactly precisely into
1699
01:52:41.075 --> 01:52:41.575
what
1700
01:52:42.035 --> 01:52:42.855
the incentive
1701
01:52:43.530 --> 01:52:44.750
what is it incentivizing
1702
01:52:45.290 --> 01:52:48.030
for because, you know, it's it's not that hard.
1703
01:52:48.570 --> 01:52:50.430
And and if you think about it,
1704
01:52:51.205 --> 01:52:52.505
not think about it,
1705
01:52:53.045 --> 01:52:54.585
average network fees
1706
01:52:54.885 --> 01:52:59.625
per user in Vasavi coin joins in the last month was $2,
1707
01:53:00.410 --> 01:53:00.910
and
1708
01:53:01.370 --> 01:53:01.950
the coordinator
1709
01:53:02.410 --> 01:53:02.910
fee,
1710
01:53:03.610 --> 01:53:04.270
per participant,
1711
01:53:04.810 --> 01:53:06.750
per anonymity set is $0.16.
1712
01:53:08.155 --> 01:53:11.775
So what we can get out of this is that
1713
01:53:12.955 --> 01:53:13.455
99
1714
01:53:13.835 --> 01:53:14.895
honest peers
1715
01:53:15.630 --> 01:53:16.850
all pay $0.16
1716
01:53:18.430 --> 01:53:20.050
for 1 more coordinator
1717
01:53:21.310 --> 01:53:21.810
peer.
1718
01:53:22.190 --> 01:53:22.690
Right?
1719
01:53:25.225 --> 01:53:29.325
1720
01:53:30.960 --> 01:53:36.980
1721
01:53:38.055 --> 01:53:40.635
1722
01:53:41.255 --> 01:53:43.435
the coin joint fee is the significant
1723
01:53:44.135 --> 01:53:50.409
expense. Is that the the the fee I pay you is significantly more expensive than the fee I pay the Bitcoin miners. Right?
1724
01:53:52.070 --> 01:53:55.449
1725
01:53:56.715 --> 01:54:03.295
1726
01:54:04.440 --> 01:54:05.580
Any centralized
1727
01:54:06.360 --> 01:54:13.505
coordinated coin joint in my mind does not provide civil resistance against the coordinator. If the coordinator wants to attack you, the coordinator
1728
01:54:14.765 --> 01:54:18.945
can do so at minimal cost because they don't have to pay the CoinJoin fee regardless.
1729
01:54:19.670 --> 01:54:23.530
My issue is that in the way Wasabi is implemented currently,
1730
01:54:25.350 --> 01:54:28.650
the there is actually even worse than that because
1731
01:54:29.015 --> 01:54:29.915
there's a direct
1732
01:54:30.455 --> 01:54:33.675
financial incentive for the coordinator to increase
1733
01:54:34.135 --> 01:54:37.835
the for the coordinator to push their own volume through the system.
1734
01:54:39.610 --> 01:54:41.870
1735
01:54:44.250 --> 01:54:45.390
it's just not
1736
01:54:46.170 --> 01:54:48.430
not not a silly incentive, but,
1737
01:54:48.915 --> 01:54:49.895
you know, because
1738
01:54:52.034 --> 01:54:53.415
do you do you understand
1739
01:54:53.795 --> 01:54:56.455
why it doesn't make sense for the coordinator
1740
01:54:57.074 --> 01:54:57.574
to
1741
01:54:58.110 --> 01:54:58.610
participate
1742
01:54:59.870 --> 01:55:00.370
if
1743
01:55:01.070 --> 01:55:07.875
only 1 user there one honest user there is because the coordinator piece pays more network fees
1744
01:55:08.255 --> 01:55:08.735
than the
1745
01:55:09.375 --> 01:55:13.074
than how much the user would pay for coordinator fees.
1746
01:55:13.410 --> 01:55:21.990
1747
01:55:23.085 --> 01:55:29.905
1748
01:55:30.285 --> 01:55:31.660
then, you know, you would
1749
01:55:32.300 --> 01:55:35.840
increase the reward with 50 times. Right? Significantly.
1750
01:55:37.020 --> 01:55:41.120
1751
01:55:42.445 --> 01:55:47.105
1752
01:55:47.485 --> 01:55:49.425
the 99 honest peers
1753
01:55:50.370 --> 01:55:51.590
plus one coordinator
1754
01:55:51.969 --> 01:55:52.469
peer,
1755
01:55:52.850 --> 01:55:53.350
and
1756
01:55:54.130 --> 01:55:57.270
one more coordinator peer would add
1757
01:55:58.155 --> 01:55:58.655
$0.16
1758
01:56:01.115 --> 01:56:02.095
gets $0.16
1759
01:56:03.115 --> 01:56:05.535
from every Anna's peer. So that's
1760
01:56:05.889 --> 01:56:07.030
99 times
1761
01:56:07.409 --> 01:56:07.909
0.16.
1762
01:56:11.170 --> 01:56:14.949
Okay. And and on the other end, when there is only 1 honest user,
1763
01:56:15.495 --> 01:56:21.514
then we also established it doesn't make sense, the coordinator, to join in. So somewhere
1764
01:56:22.135 --> 01:56:22.875
in between,
1765
01:56:23.574 --> 01:56:24.795
it makes sense.
1766
01:56:27.050 --> 01:56:28.350
Can can you guys follow?
1767
01:56:29.130 --> 01:56:29.630
Yeah.
1768
01:56:30.730 --> 01:56:35.425
1769
01:56:35.965 --> 01:56:38.065
that provides a natural civil
1770
01:56:39.245 --> 01:56:41.344
defense to the centralized coordinators.
1771
01:56:42.739 --> 01:56:45.000
It just has not been the case so far.
1772
01:56:45.460 --> 01:56:49.239
I think a fixed fee to enter a CoinJoin liquidity pool
1773
01:56:49.555 --> 01:56:50.055
is
1774
01:56:50.435 --> 01:56:53.175
as a a way better incentive in this scenario,
1775
01:56:53.955 --> 01:56:54.455
because
1776
01:56:54.915 --> 01:56:57.230
increasing volume doesn't get you more in fees,
1777
01:56:57.710 --> 01:56:58.210
period.
1778
01:57:00.030 --> 01:57:00.530
I
1779
01:57:04.430 --> 01:57:05.650
I I I think
1780
01:57:06.165 --> 01:57:07.545
as a Wasabi user
1781
01:57:08.005 --> 01:57:17.539
who paid significant amount of Sats to you guys, like, I I I don't even want to go back and count how much Bitcoin I paid you guys. Like, I paid you guys a lot of fucking Bitcoin
1782
01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:19.139
to provide me privacy
1783
01:57:19.440 --> 01:57:19.940
improvement.
1784
01:57:21.039 --> 01:57:23.940
That was based on a perceived an onset.
1785
01:57:24.585 --> 01:57:27.805
Okay? It was based on how many people were in my round.
1786
01:57:28.425 --> 01:57:28.925
And
1787
01:57:29.545 --> 01:57:31.485
all of a sudden, there's this incentive
1788
01:57:31.945 --> 01:57:33.565
that's been there from the beginning
1789
01:57:34.560 --> 01:57:44.595
that the coordinator can be adding to that perceived onset when it's really not I'm not actually getting any privacy gain from that, but I'm paying for it. And then on top of that,
1790
01:57:45.295 --> 01:57:46.355
the average user,
1791
01:57:46.895 --> 01:57:49.395
because of the way the defaults are set up,
1792
01:57:49.890 --> 01:57:51.590
are going, and they're they're
1793
01:57:52.050 --> 01:57:56.070
they're ruining their forward privacy, which ruins my Anans set
1794
01:57:56.690 --> 01:58:00.485
going forward. Right? So if I if, let's say, I have 30 Honest Peers,
1795
01:58:01.105 --> 01:58:05.365
and those 30 Honest Peers, you know, 15 of them send their funds into BlockFi,
1796
01:58:06.305 --> 01:58:07.205
and, you know,
1797
01:58:07.740 --> 01:58:19.545
5 of them send it to OpenOM's mom and then, like, 2 send it to someone else. Like, all of a sudden, my Ananset is, like, 3, and I don't even fucking know. I have no fucking idea. It degrades rapidly,
1798
01:58:20.005 --> 01:58:22.184
and I'm paying a premium for it.
1799
01:58:24.950 --> 01:58:27.370
Do you does does that issue not make sense?
1800
01:58:33.304 --> 01:58:35.405
1801
01:58:38.425 --> 01:58:41.804
1802
01:58:43.290 --> 01:58:46.750
is coming out hopefully in the next, like, 6 months, right,
1803
01:58:47.690 --> 01:58:48.670
or 8 months?
1804
01:58:49.450 --> 01:58:54.505
When do when do we expect Wasabi 2 point o? It doesn't matter. Wasabi 2 point o is coming as soon as possible.
1805
01:58:55.205 --> 01:58:56.905
With Wasabi 2 point o,
1806
01:58:57.430 --> 01:59:00.810
I'm gonna try and do a a high level description. Tell me if I'm wrong.
1807
01:59:02.950 --> 01:59:05.930
Users come in. They go and they
1808
01:59:06.335 --> 01:59:09.315
they they basically exchange their Bitcoin for, like,
1809
01:59:10.095 --> 01:59:11.635
a a momentary token
1810
01:59:12.095 --> 01:59:15.075
that is managed by the coordinator blind blindly,
1811
01:59:15.590 --> 01:59:18.489
and then they can apply that token to future transactions.
1812
01:59:19.670 --> 01:59:20.170
Right?
1813
01:59:23.085 --> 01:59:26.225
Is that a good high level description of a Savvy 2 point o? What?
1814
01:59:26.925 --> 01:59:28.625
1815
01:59:29.324 --> 01:59:32.290
I I'm I'm sorry. There are just a lot of topics
1816
01:59:32.750 --> 01:59:33.710
glossing over and
1817
01:59:35.309 --> 01:59:42.665
but but but, it happens within a coin join. I'm I'm not sure that's what you meant. Not future transactions, but
1818
01:59:43.045 --> 01:59:45.864
this happens within 1 coin join.
1819
01:59:47.790 --> 02:00:01.815
1820
02:00:02.360 --> 02:00:05.579
is it a fixed fee? What what is is it changed at all?
1821
02:00:07.159 --> 02:00:10.619
1822
02:00:10.920 --> 02:00:11.420
different.
1823
02:00:12.585 --> 02:00:18.925
Also, because of the fee incentive we did not succeed to to go too much into.
1824
02:00:19.785 --> 02:00:21.405
And, also, because
1825
02:00:22.230 --> 02:00:23.690
we would like to
1826
02:00:25.190 --> 02:00:26.010
to create
1827
02:00:27.190 --> 02:00:32.885
to to to enable sharing the revenue with other services who are building on top of the WhatsApp,
1828
02:00:34.465 --> 02:00:35.445
daemon. And,
1829
02:00:36.625 --> 02:00:38.804
unfortunately, I can't say
1830
02:00:39.310 --> 02:00:42.929
how exactly these fees will be because I'm not
1831
02:00:43.550 --> 02:00:44.849
100% convinced
1832
02:00:45.230 --> 02:00:48.770
that there is a anonymous way to share revenue. And
1833
02:00:49.135 --> 02:00:49.635
if
1834
02:00:50.175 --> 02:00:51.475
if so so that
1835
02:00:52.015 --> 02:00:56.435
that that's very important in terms of how how the fees would be
1836
02:00:56.735 --> 02:00:57.475
would be
1837
02:00:59.060 --> 02:01:05.640
would be there. Right? So so it's not figured out at this point, but definitely has to change for multiple reasons.
1838
02:01:13.114 --> 02:01:13.614
1839
02:01:14.320 --> 02:01:21.139
Do you can you give us, like, a high level, you know, high level kind of description of of the goal of Wasabi 2 point o?
1840
02:01:21.525 --> 02:01:24.265
Like, how like, how it works. So high level kind of,
1841
02:01:24.805 --> 02:01:31.780
explain it like we're a Bitcoin fanatic. You know, not I don't I don't have to be 5 years old. I just need
1842
02:01:32.800 --> 02:01:35.460
to have, like, a high level kind of discussion here.
1843
02:01:36.320 --> 02:01:39.860
1844
02:01:40.625 --> 02:01:41.125
except
1845
02:01:42.784 --> 02:01:44.804
that when you are sending transactions,
1846
02:01:45.744 --> 02:01:46.485
you are
1847
02:01:47.105 --> 02:01:49.045
always sending mixed coins,
1848
02:01:50.560 --> 02:01:54.420
except when you did not have the time to mix them. And
1849
02:01:55.120 --> 02:02:00.465
it should it does not ask you to manually mix, but
1850
02:02:00.925 --> 02:02:01.425
the
1851
02:02:02.365 --> 02:02:12.550
the privacy things are happening all in the background. So so, basically, a normal Bitcoin wallet with with a couple of tweaks regarding the
1852
02:02:13.010 --> 02:02:20.135
how we we were able to replace coin control, but not exactly the same way as other wallets are doing
1853
02:02:21.155 --> 02:02:21.975
it. But,
1854
02:02:22.835 --> 02:02:25.255
but, yeah, for example, the cluster selection
1855
02:02:25.635 --> 02:02:26.375
or the
1856
02:02:27.450 --> 02:02:28.910
the the change avoidance,
1857
02:02:29.930 --> 02:02:34.350
but but, like, a normal Bitcoin wallet, it's privacy by default. Right?
1858
02:02:38.665 --> 02:02:39.565
1859
02:02:40.025 --> 02:02:44.490
so, like, my my, like, kind of understanding of it is, like, almost like
1860
02:02:47.050 --> 02:02:48.190
you you you, like,
1861
02:02:49.050 --> 02:02:58.985
you you get a share of whatever the round is, and then you can apply that share outside. You you can you can apply that share however you want. So you can come out with different
1862
02:02:59.285 --> 02:03:00.985
you can come in with different amounts,
1863
02:03:01.640 --> 02:03:05.980
and you can come out with different amounts than having, like, equal output coin joints.
1864
02:03:06.600 --> 02:03:07.420
Is that correct?
1865
02:03:08.895 --> 02:03:15.795
1866
02:03:16.190 --> 02:03:19.150
fleshed out in a way that I'm comfortable with
1867
02:03:19.949 --> 02:03:24.449
to a point that I'm comfortable with it even if it would be
1868
02:03:24.855 --> 02:03:28.554
it would be rolled out as it is as far as we figured
1869
02:03:29.014 --> 02:03:35.860
out, but others want to do some other stuff. Never mind. But how this works is that you come in with
1870
02:03:36.880 --> 02:03:37.380
arbitrary
1871
02:03:38.240 --> 02:03:39.140
input amounts,
1872
02:03:40.315 --> 02:03:40.815
And
1873
02:03:41.995 --> 02:03:50.960
you can come with multiple input inputs or only one input, doesn't matter, and and you can break them in any way, shape, or form except
1874
02:03:53.260 --> 02:03:54.240
for privacy.
1875
02:03:55.100 --> 02:03:58.320
You don't break them in any way, shape, or form.
1876
02:03:58.815 --> 02:04:00.595
But what we found
1877
02:04:00.975 --> 02:04:03.715
is the most blockchain efficient solution
1878
02:04:04.415 --> 02:04:06.915
that we we came up with is
1879
02:04:07.430 --> 02:04:08.170
is that
1880
02:04:08.710 --> 02:04:09.210
every
1881
02:04:09.670 --> 02:04:12.810
user looks at every other user's inputs.
1882
02:04:13.990 --> 02:04:14.490
And
1883
02:04:14.950 --> 02:04:15.850
based on
1884
02:04:16.315 --> 02:04:17.135
those inputs,
1885
02:04:17.515 --> 02:04:18.415
they randomly
1886
02:04:18.715 --> 02:04:20.495
generate a bunch of solutions
1887
02:04:21.115 --> 02:04:22.075
with a bunch of,
1888
02:04:22.875 --> 02:04:23.375
denomination
1889
02:04:23.675 --> 02:04:24.175
systems,
1890
02:04:25.380 --> 02:04:27.560
like powers of 2, powers of 3,
1891
02:04:27.940 --> 02:04:29.239
preferred value series.
1892
02:04:31.699 --> 02:04:37.085
But they are generating randomly a bunch of solution, and one of the solution will be submitted,
1893
02:04:38.425 --> 02:04:42.685
to to have their outputs. And this resulted in
1894
02:04:44.570 --> 02:04:45.310
pretty good
1895
02:04:46.330 --> 02:04:47.550
anonymity sets,
1896
02:04:48.810 --> 02:04:49.310
like,
1897
02:04:49.770 --> 02:04:50.090
around
1898
02:04:51.885 --> 02:04:55.905
it's variable. So so so sometimes it's 2, sometimes it's
1899
02:04:56.285 --> 02:04:56.785
20.
1900
02:04:57.245 --> 02:04:57.985
It depends.
1901
02:04:58.605 --> 02:04:59.105
But
1902
02:05:00.150 --> 02:05:04.250
we don't really have changes anymore, and we are able
1903
02:05:04.630 --> 02:05:06.330
to mix all the
1904
02:05:07.335 --> 02:05:10.075
all the inputs in in one go,
1905
02:05:10.935 --> 02:05:11.435
and
1906
02:05:12.055 --> 02:05:13.915
and there is no minimum denomination.
1907
02:05:14.935 --> 02:05:16.075
So it's
1908
02:05:16.660 --> 02:05:22.120
it's it's actually pretty cool, and we worked very hard on that for one and a half year.
1909
02:05:22.660 --> 02:05:23.160
So
1910
02:05:23.780 --> 02:05:24.900
so, yeah, it's like
1911
02:05:26.065 --> 02:05:29.365
I think this is how far coin joins can
1912
02:05:30.385 --> 02:05:31.205
can potentially
1913
02:05:32.225 --> 02:05:34.245
go if you don't consider
1914
02:05:35.040 --> 02:05:38.020
all these kind of crazy things like coin joins,
1915
02:05:38.400 --> 02:05:43.139
coin swaps and coin joins, or lightning channel openings and coin joins because those obviously
1916
02:05:44.395 --> 02:05:48.495
complexify many things. But as as far as on chain mixing,
1917
02:05:49.355 --> 02:05:50.895
with a couple of outputs,
1918
02:05:53.290 --> 02:05:54.750
No changes generated
1919
02:05:55.449 --> 02:05:55.949
arbitrary
1920
02:05:56.250 --> 02:05:56.750
inputs.
1921
02:05:57.530 --> 02:06:07.395
1922
02:06:08.435 --> 02:06:16.200
trust model is this? Like, do do we what do we what are we trusting the coordinator with? Is it is it almost like a little bit custodial while you're in that process
1923
02:06:16.745 --> 02:06:17.485
where the
1924
02:06:17.785 --> 02:06:22.605
the those the Wasabi core Wasabi 2 point o coordinator can can take money?
1925
02:06:23.785 --> 02:06:25.805
1926
02:06:26.440 --> 02:06:27.980
at all, the coordinator.
1927
02:06:29.639 --> 02:06:34.540
1928
02:06:34.865 --> 02:06:40.005
with an algorithm which would be the best kind of denominations to put in in the coin joints. Right?
1929
02:06:40.705 --> 02:06:43.365
1930
02:06:43.700 --> 02:06:44.440
you're guessing.
1931
02:06:45.060 --> 02:06:51.560
So you don't know exactly how much anonymity you will get out, but chances are you will
1932
02:06:51.875 --> 02:06:59.574
get out. You there will be other users guessing similar ways than you based on your inputs and other user inputs. So
1933
02:07:00.195 --> 02:07:00.934
so yeah.
1934
02:07:01.350 --> 02:07:02.570
1935
02:07:03.110 --> 02:07:07.929
do you think that is there any trust required in the coordinator in Wasabi 1 point o?
1936
02:07:11.875 --> 02:07:13.175
1937
02:07:14.355 --> 02:07:15.094
some minima
1938
02:07:15.715 --> 02:07:18.215
trust issues when we are adding, like,
1939
02:07:18.570 --> 02:07:19.390
2 inputs
1940
02:07:19.930 --> 02:07:22.590
to to a mix from the same user, then
1941
02:07:23.370 --> 02:07:29.375
then there is trust required. It obviously doesn't happen normally, but in edge cases,
1942
02:07:29.835 --> 02:07:30.575
it it does.
1943
02:07:33.115 --> 02:07:40.270
1944
02:07:40.910 --> 02:07:44.610
and you have no Sybil resistance from the coordinator. Do we not agree on this?
1945
02:07:45.804 --> 02:07:48.864
1946
02:07:49.645 --> 02:07:51.105
go deep with this because
1947
02:07:51.565 --> 02:07:53.824
I I did some calculations. And
1948
02:07:54.610 --> 02:07:58.710
if if if you would like, then I I can tell you exactly that
1949
02:07:59.090 --> 02:08:00.630
what it is incentivizing
1950
02:08:01.170 --> 02:08:01.670
at.
1951
02:08:04.135 --> 02:08:06.715
1952
02:08:07.974 --> 02:08:15.620
1953
02:08:16.160 --> 02:08:23.475
One peer, it it doesn't make sense to add 1 coordinator peer because coordinator piece more network fees.
1954
02:08:23.955 --> 02:08:32.440
1955
02:08:33.095 --> 02:08:36.795
you know, a single entity, and then you also have so
1956
02:08:37.575 --> 02:08:42.235
do what what about what about remixing? Do we think that that that users should remix?
1957
02:08:43.950 --> 02:08:46.290
Should they do one round? Is one round alright?
1958
02:08:51.205 --> 02:08:52.265
1959
02:08:52.645 --> 02:08:54.425
to the previous conversations?
1960
02:08:55.125 --> 02:08:58.040
1961
02:08:58.440 --> 02:09:01.340
Wasabi anonymity sets are overstated.
1962
02:09:01.880 --> 02:09:06.300
You overpay for them based on the anonymity set, and then they degrade rapidly.
1963
02:09:07.605 --> 02:09:09.784
So I think that all users should remix.
1964
02:09:10.164 --> 02:09:13.465
Do we are we all on on the same page on this? Or
1965
02:09:14.620 --> 02:09:15.120
1966
02:09:16.060 --> 02:09:19.440
I'm I'm not sure. I mean, depends on the users. Right?
1967
02:09:20.380 --> 02:09:32.665
1968
02:09:33.980 --> 02:09:36.240
to at least at least 2 mixes.
1969
02:09:37.740 --> 02:09:44.665
At least at least at least a couple people should be remix and, like, at least some people in the the fucking round should be remixing, if not everybody.
1970
02:09:45.685 --> 02:09:46.185
Right?
1971
02:09:47.765 --> 02:09:48.665
1972
02:09:49.205 --> 02:09:49.705
25%
1973
02:09:50.405 --> 02:09:51.785
is remixing. Right?
1974
02:09:52.230 --> 02:09:54.090
1975
02:09:55.030 --> 02:09:59.210
if that's just one round? And most most times, it's just a single round, 51.
1976
02:10:03.385 --> 02:10:05.405
1977
02:10:07.305 --> 02:10:16.010
1978
02:10:20.405 --> 02:10:24.105
1979
02:10:24.885 --> 02:10:25.385
1980
02:10:26.000 --> 02:10:26.820
That's unavoidable,
1981
02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:30.260
but I'm talking about on the coin joint fee structure.
1982
02:10:36.735 --> 02:10:38.195
1983
02:10:39.135 --> 02:10:40.835
okay. Are we not incentivizing
1984
02:10:41.375 --> 02:10:43.300
remixing right now? I
1985
02:10:43.760 --> 02:10:48.179
1986
02:10:48.719 --> 02:10:52.260
and you have to pay significantly more to continue to
1987
02:10:52.755 --> 02:10:53.415
to continue
1988
02:10:54.275 --> 02:10:55.335
to remix. Right?
1989
02:10:56.355 --> 02:10:59.175
You just said it yourself. You said it's more expensive to remix.
1990
02:11:01.510 --> 02:11:03.210
1991
02:11:03.590 --> 02:11:05.929
let let's say let's let's keep it simple.
1992
02:11:06.309 --> 02:11:06.809
0.1
1993
02:11:07.110 --> 02:11:07.610
Bitcoin.
1994
02:11:08.985 --> 02:11:11.485
And when you're remixing that 0.1
1995
02:11:11.785 --> 02:11:12.285
Bitcoin,
1996
02:11:13.385 --> 02:11:13.885
then
1997
02:11:14.185 --> 02:11:20.500
then you don't pay the whole coordinator fees. You only pay as much as you have, which is a few Satoshis
1998
02:11:21.120 --> 02:11:24.420
left. In this case, you get the perfect mix.
1999
02:11:26.305 --> 02:11:36.730
2000
02:11:37.110 --> 02:11:40.969
if if I go back to what I said earlier, it's like when I'm trying to onboard people,
2001
02:11:41.385 --> 02:11:49.804
and I'm talking about Wasabi, I'm, like, okay. So then after you install it, like, go into settings, switch it to at least 101 so that that you know you're guaranteed at least one remix.
2002
02:11:50.250 --> 02:11:51.870
Do you agree that that's best practice?
2003
02:11:53.929 --> 02:11:55.870
2004
02:11:56.650 --> 02:11:57.710
I would not
2005
02:11:58.245 --> 02:11:58.985
keep remixing
2006
02:11:59.525 --> 02:12:03.465
2007
02:12:06.670 --> 02:12:12.450
2008
02:12:12.910 --> 02:12:20.595
right, like, the the 50 unlimited set is not reached for all your coins. It's only reached for 0.1 Bitcoin, and
2009
02:12:20.975 --> 02:12:23.840
the rest you are you are still remixing. And
2010
02:12:24.719 --> 02:12:26.500
if you start with 0.8,
2011
02:12:27.040 --> 02:12:31.219
then you will have a couple of anonymity set on 0 point on a 0.2
2012
02:12:31.760 --> 02:12:34.715
coin and on a 0 point 4 coin.
2013
02:12:35.094 --> 02:12:36.155
Right? So
2014
02:12:36.695 --> 02:12:38.235
when you are putting that
2015
02:12:38.775 --> 02:12:39.815
into the mix
2016
02:12:40.910 --> 02:12:44.930
because that does not reach the 50 anonymity set
2017
02:12:45.390 --> 02:12:46.610
in the first round,
2018
02:12:47.230 --> 02:12:47.730
then,
2019
02:12:48.270 --> 02:12:49.410
you are remixing.
2020
02:12:52.255 --> 02:12:53.715
2021
02:12:55.775 --> 02:12:58.500
do you think can I have a question? Do do do you,
2022
02:13:00.020 --> 02:13:01.240
from my understanding,
2023
02:13:03.860 --> 02:13:05.480
multiple mixes on
2024
02:13:06.585 --> 02:13:11.165
the same output, not talking about the other bigger remaining output,
2025
02:13:12.105 --> 02:13:12.605
is
2026
02:13:13.280 --> 02:13:15.860
more efficient in terms of gaining anonymity
2027
02:13:16.800 --> 02:13:19.380
than adding peers to one mix.
2028
02:13:21.120 --> 02:13:22.980
So what I'm trying to say is
2029
02:13:24.705 --> 02:13:25.445
that mixing
2030
02:13:25.824 --> 02:13:27.284
twice with 50
2031
02:13:27.824 --> 02:13:28.324
peers
2032
02:13:29.025 --> 02:13:29.525
is
2033
02:13:29.985 --> 02:13:30.965
reaching more
2034
02:13:32.449 --> 02:13:34.710
than once with a 100 peers.
2035
02:13:39.945 --> 02:13:42.285
2036
02:13:44.665 --> 02:13:45.165
2037
02:13:45.545 --> 02:13:47.324
that's a that's a good question.
2038
02:13:48.690 --> 02:13:49.190
I
2039
02:13:50.210 --> 02:13:55.590
I I actually, I had some calculation. Let me see if I can remember that.
2040
02:13:56.050 --> 02:13:56.550
So
2041
02:13:58.645 --> 02:14:00.425
so so the question is basically
2042
02:14:02.005 --> 02:14:03.145
similar to
2043
02:14:06.420 --> 02:14:06.920
1010
2044
02:14:07.540 --> 02:14:08.840
people coin join
2045
02:14:09.540 --> 02:14:10.040
versus
2046
02:14:10.500 --> 02:14:12.520
100 people coin join. Right?
2047
02:14:13.065 --> 02:14:22.920
2048
02:14:23.620 --> 02:14:24.120
So
2049
02:14:25.140 --> 02:14:30.040
Yeah. Multiple rounds are better than one big one, my in my opinion.
2050
02:14:30.845 --> 02:14:34.785
2051
02:14:35.325 --> 02:14:37.105
tell which is better,
2052
02:14:37.810 --> 02:14:39.750
which is you're calculating
2053
02:14:40.210 --> 02:14:40.710
the
2054
02:14:42.290 --> 02:14:43.010
the equal
2055
02:14:44.130 --> 02:14:45.590
I'm I'm not sure.
2056
02:14:46.025 --> 02:14:48.925
Right? But, well, I definitely had the calculations,
2057
02:14:49.865 --> 02:14:54.685
a few half a month ago or something like that for that. Yeah. Sorry.
2058
02:14:55.409 --> 02:14:58.389
2059
02:14:59.329 --> 02:15:04.935
then others too who you have been your peers. So, you know, the onset does kind
2060
02:15:05.395 --> 02:15:07.415
of branch out like that as well.
2061
02:15:09.850 --> 02:15:12.750
2062
02:15:13.370 --> 02:15:14.190
it it
2063
02:15:14.970 --> 02:15:17.470
doesn't it it doesn't matter for
2064
02:15:18.235 --> 02:15:24.815
for 10:10 people coinjoin versus 100 people coinjoin. Others are branching out from that
2065
02:15:25.115 --> 02:15:25.615
anyway.
2066
02:15:31.070 --> 02:15:34.930
2067
02:15:36.825 --> 02:15:39.885
2068
02:15:40.425 --> 02:15:40.925
That's
2069
02:15:41.865 --> 02:15:42.365
25%
2070
02:15:42.905 --> 02:15:45.165
of the mixes are remixes.
2071
02:15:45.980 --> 02:15:46.720
So 25%
2072
02:15:47.340 --> 02:15:48.000
is not
2073
02:15:48.380 --> 02:15:49.360
doing that.
2074
02:15:50.380 --> 02:15:54.460
They are remixing. These are not remixes of the changes of the non mixed,
2075
02:15:55.875 --> 02:15:58.375
coins. These are remixes of the mixed coins.
2076
02:16:02.114 --> 02:16:10.790
2077
02:16:11.170 --> 02:16:16.364
which would make them to do this. I mean, they have the personal choices or they have, like, a higher target
2078
02:16:16.824 --> 02:16:19.645
because they listen to Matt to put it to 101
2079
02:16:20.264 --> 02:16:20.764
or,
2080
02:16:21.250 --> 02:16:27.670
you know, or they just feel more comfortable with more mixes. That's what it happens. It's it's not doesn't happen automatically. Right?
2081
02:16:28.005 --> 02:16:36.745
If I for example, if I if I put my coins in in in join market, right, if I'm a taker, I'm having a low time preference and I do
2082
02:16:37.630 --> 02:16:44.210
the mix days or or or running a tumbler with multiple multiple mix days in including transactions which are not creating state change.
2083
02:16:44.590 --> 02:16:45.090
And
2084
02:16:45.965 --> 02:16:46.465
then
2085
02:16:46.845 --> 02:16:50.944
either because I've I'm in rush, I need to spend somewhere
2086
02:16:51.885 --> 02:16:53.585
or I leave
2087
02:16:54.141 --> 02:17:01.440
my coins in there and continue as a maker and alternate these rules. And as a maker, I'm not paying anything, but still improving
2088
02:17:02.176 --> 02:17:04.995
the anonymity set of my coins. Right?
2089
02:17:06.096 --> 02:17:06.995
So how is
2090
02:17:07.775 --> 02:17:11.315
that that is just so much better to me that I wouldn't even think of
2091
02:17:11.971 --> 02:17:13.030
not using
2092
02:17:14.370 --> 02:17:16.070
the chance of free remixing.
2093
02:17:16.530 --> 02:17:19.110
And to be honest, this is the same with if you are entered
2094
02:17:19.846 --> 02:17:20.346
and
2095
02:17:20.886 --> 02:17:29.145
do pay pay the fees to enter. You will just leave it as long as your, you know, time allows or you are comfortable with having your funds in.
2096
02:17:30.390 --> 02:17:32.490
2097
02:17:32.950 --> 02:17:33.850
do you mean
2098
02:17:35.029 --> 02:17:39.130
the default is different or there is no financial incentive?
2099
02:17:40.535 --> 02:17:46.395
2100
02:17:47.310 --> 02:17:50.130
So, you know, it's cheaper for you to not continue.
2101
02:17:51.390 --> 02:17:53.890
2102
02:17:54.670 --> 02:17:55.970
non mixed coins.
2103
02:17:58.815 --> 02:18:01.555
Do do you see how? I see that. Yeah.
2104
02:18:02.095 --> 02:18:02.815
2105
02:18:03.510 --> 02:18:07.370
I mean, yeah. Yeah. That's that I understand that it's true, but also,
2106
02:18:08.630 --> 02:18:16.755
I want to mix my non mixed coins more than the mixed ones. So, I mean, you know, that doesn't matter really. This is about
2107
02:18:17.534 --> 02:18:18.835
if I want to increase
2108
02:18:19.375 --> 02:18:20.994
the anonymity set or the,
2109
02:18:21.534 --> 02:18:22.274
kind of
2110
02:18:23.780 --> 02:18:27.080
darkness or, like, modeled around my coins more.
2111
02:18:29.301 --> 02:18:31.185
2112
02:18:31.904 --> 02:18:36.645
what do you want to incentivize? Mixing non mixed coins or mixing mixed coins?
2113
02:18:37.665 --> 02:18:41.120
2114
02:18:41.580 --> 02:18:43.359
cost a fee. But then
2115
02:18:45.580 --> 02:18:49.359
you you see that's how the other implementations are set up in a way that
2116
02:18:50.256 --> 02:18:51.235
you can continue
2117
02:18:51.615 --> 02:18:53.235
mixing without paying.
2118
02:18:54.735 --> 02:18:56.035
So you would do it.
2119
02:18:58.761 --> 02:18:59.261
2120
02:19:01.320 --> 02:19:01.820
Yes.
2121
02:19:04.895 --> 02:19:07.395
Yeah. I I I I I see that. Definitely.
2122
02:19:07.855 --> 02:19:09.476
So you can continue
2123
02:19:09.855 --> 02:19:10.915
mixing without
2124
02:19:11.910 --> 02:19:12.410
paying
2125
02:19:13.029 --> 02:19:15.770
while other people are paying for it. Right?
2126
02:19:17.350 --> 02:19:17.850
Yeah.
2127
02:19:19.305 --> 02:19:23.405
So I I think it's it's not a good idea to to not
2128
02:19:25.065 --> 02:19:26.765
let to to not
2129
02:19:27.311 --> 02:19:28.290
do the people
2130
02:19:30.190 --> 02:19:33.170
to to not make the people pay the network fees
2131
02:19:33.950 --> 02:19:35.730
for various reasons.
2132
02:19:36.476 --> 02:19:39.215
On the other hand so if the suggestion
2133
02:19:39.516 --> 02:19:40.016
is,
2134
02:19:41.275 --> 02:19:42.895
should the coordinator
2135
02:19:45.091 --> 02:19:45.591
somehow
2136
02:19:46.770 --> 02:19:47.270
prefer
2137
02:19:47.891 --> 02:19:50.790
or not ask anything from
2138
02:19:52.025 --> 02:19:52.525
remixers,
2139
02:19:53.465 --> 02:19:56.125
then I think that's a that's a good suggestion.
2140
02:19:56.745 --> 02:19:57.245
Sure.
2141
02:19:57.625 --> 02:19:59.965
If if that's what you guys mean.
2142
02:20:00.580 --> 02:20:04.200
2143
02:20:05.220 --> 02:20:10.120
to it's it's beneficial to participate, to remix for both the ones who are remixing
2144
02:20:11.185 --> 02:20:14.564
and and also the new entrants. Right? Because they have a higher
2145
02:20:14.944 --> 02:20:16.005
anonymity set.
2146
02:20:16.944 --> 02:20:20.400
So it would make sense to pay for it as a new
2147
02:20:23.580 --> 02:20:25.680
entrant. And that payment can
2148
02:20:26.060 --> 02:20:27.280
incentivize the
2149
02:20:28.226 --> 02:20:35.205
people who are just there for the privacy. And now the question is if they take their coins out or stop the the wallet
2150
02:20:35.665 --> 02:20:36.165
or,
2151
02:20:36.865 --> 02:20:39.189
just hang hang around a bit longer
2152
02:20:39.649 --> 02:20:40.949
to gain more privacy.
2153
02:20:44.290 --> 02:20:49.495
2154
02:20:50.676 --> 02:20:51.415
I think
2155
02:20:51.716 --> 02:20:55.470
whoever uses the block space should pay the network fees,
2156
02:21:00.170 --> 02:21:02.270
which is the long term bottleneck.
2157
02:21:02.865 --> 02:21:11.525
2158
02:21:12.110 --> 02:21:12.770
should encourage
2159
02:21:13.150 --> 02:21:13.650
remixing
2160
02:21:14.190 --> 02:21:15.970
based on their structure
2161
02:21:16.350 --> 02:21:17.330
and their defaults?
2162
02:21:22.255 --> 02:21:26.676
2163
02:21:27.375 --> 02:21:27.875
expensive
2164
02:21:28.255 --> 02:21:29.075
to remix.
2165
02:21:29.770 --> 02:21:32.190
I think the people who would like to
2166
02:21:32.570 --> 02:21:34.190
remix a lot have
2167
02:21:34.971 --> 02:21:38.190
a very specific reason to do that. So
2168
02:21:39.476 --> 02:21:42.136
what should be the default? This should be
2169
02:21:42.755 --> 02:21:43.575
the default
2170
02:21:44.355 --> 02:21:46.695
to to normal users. Right?
2171
02:21:48.640 --> 02:21:52.420
2172
02:21:53.600 --> 02:21:56.420
and I used the default and I got a 51 in onset,
2173
02:21:57.195 --> 02:22:02.734
Right? And it stopped automatically based on the default because I didn't change anything. I just trusted the default.
2174
02:22:03.115 --> 02:22:07.410
Got my nice 51. I got my badge. Got the green check on it,
2175
02:22:08.109 --> 02:22:12.529
and it just sit there. It just it's it's sat in my Wasabi Wallet. I haven't moved it.
2176
02:22:13.346 --> 02:22:18.405
What do we think the Anand set is today? Significantly less than 51. Do we agree?
2177
02:22:20.226 --> 02:22:21.365
2178
02:22:21.745 --> 02:22:22.245
No.
2179
02:22:24.650 --> 02:22:25.710
Okay. So
2180
02:22:26.490 --> 02:22:27.150
it is
2181
02:22:28.091 --> 02:22:30.830
less because other people are doing
2182
02:22:31.135 --> 02:22:33.074
things that makes your UTX
2183
02:22:34.814 --> 02:22:37.635
more likely to coming from the source where
2184
02:22:38.360 --> 02:22:40.780
you put it in from. Right?
2185
02:22:44.520 --> 02:22:45.500
2186
02:22:45.880 --> 02:22:47.101
an elimination process.
2187
02:22:47.415 --> 02:22:48.155
So as people
2188
02:22:49.015 --> 02:22:52.395
are coming out as or a doxing, going to KVIC services,
2189
02:22:52.935 --> 02:22:53.595
they do
2190
02:22:54.215 --> 02:22:54.715
identify
2191
02:22:55.110 --> 02:23:00.650
themselves. So so if there are 50 people and 49 have identified themselves, then, you know, you know who is the 5th thesis.
2192
02:23:01.590 --> 02:23:02.150
2193
02:23:02.766 --> 02:23:09.506
but on the other hand, and I think you guys talk about this a or you met talk about this a lot,
2194
02:23:10.939 --> 02:23:13.280
Other people are remixing
2195
02:23:13.820 --> 02:23:14.320
the
2196
02:23:15.100 --> 02:23:17.439
coins. Those are exactly
2197
02:23:18.506 --> 02:23:20.525
equal outputs to your coin.
2198
02:23:20.905 --> 02:23:29.710
And those can go to many different places too. Right? And those can be remixed too, and those can go to many different places. Now
2199
02:23:30.011 --> 02:23:31.950
I don't think this is
2200
02:23:32.650 --> 02:23:36.351
a good argument there. But if you look at
2201
02:23:37.645 --> 02:23:38.306
the the
2202
02:23:39.085 --> 02:23:39.745
the academic
2203
02:23:40.525 --> 02:23:42.625
terminology for anonymity set,
2204
02:23:42.926 --> 02:23:50.011
then the anonymity set is would be huge, like 1,000 or I don't know how much, but huge because
2205
02:23:51.511 --> 02:23:54.891
exact same coins that could be yours go to
2206
02:23:55.415 --> 02:23:57.515
other places in the coin join.
2207
02:23:58.375 --> 02:23:59.435
Now this
2208
02:24:00.135 --> 02:24:03.354
this is where where where we should bring in probabilities,
2209
02:24:03.655 --> 02:24:04.470
right, that it's
2210
02:24:04.950 --> 02:24:05.450
unlikely.
2211
02:24:06.390 --> 02:24:09.370
But, if if you take the anonymity set
2212
02:24:10.149 --> 02:24:14.556
from an academic point of view, then it can be a lot more
2213
02:24:14.936 --> 02:24:16.556
because of future mixes.
2214
02:24:23.790 --> 02:24:26.690
2215
02:24:27.125 --> 02:24:30.185
We just lost Open Arms. Hopefully, he'll join back in.
2216
02:24:30.564 --> 02:24:32.904
I I agree that remixing helps. I just
2217
02:24:33.364 --> 02:24:35.145
I just I wish it was incentivized,
2218
02:24:36.520 --> 02:24:37.899
rather than discouraged,
2219
02:24:39.080 --> 02:24:39.899
so that
2220
02:24:40.680 --> 02:24:43.819
that that would be more likely to be the case rather than
2221
02:24:44.485 --> 02:24:45.625
having to just
2222
02:24:47.365 --> 02:24:49.225
hope hope that people do it.
2223
02:24:51.260 --> 02:24:53.520
I I just wanna be absolutely clear here,
2224
02:24:55.180 --> 02:24:57.359
that I appreciate all the work you put in
2225
02:24:58.935 --> 02:25:07.515
to this very important topic as, as as the one of the I mean, it's a topic that I've dedicated a a significant portion of my life to.
2226
02:25:08.061 --> 02:25:09.920
So I I do absolutely appreciate,
2227
02:25:10.780 --> 02:25:13.600
all the work you and the rest of the Wasabi devs have done.
2228
02:25:14.700 --> 02:25:18.154
My goal ultimately is I just want these tools to be better.
2229
02:25:18.534 --> 02:25:19.835
I I think they're
2230
02:25:20.534 --> 02:25:21.515
they're not perfect.
2231
02:25:21.975 --> 02:25:24.190
I don't think this should be a controversial thing,
2232
02:25:25.230 --> 02:25:26.370
that they're not perfect.
2233
02:25:29.230 --> 02:25:30.290
2234
02:25:30.671 --> 02:25:35.125
you know, like, when I when I wanted to go into the details of the coordinator,
2235
02:25:36.785 --> 02:25:37.285
fee,
2236
02:25:39.079 --> 02:25:40.140
economic incentives
2237
02:25:40.600 --> 02:25:42.060
to part of participation.
2238
02:25:42.680 --> 02:25:47.579
I I didn't try to trap you. Right? Like, it's a nuance topic, and and,
2239
02:25:47.895 --> 02:25:48.716
you know, I
2240
02:25:49.256 --> 02:25:52.075
I didn't think that much of it
2241
02:25:53.016 --> 02:25:53.516
previously.
2242
02:25:54.615 --> 02:25:55.115
But
2243
02:25:55.790 --> 02:25:57.470
now that that that,
2244
02:25:57.950 --> 02:25:58.450
this
2245
02:25:58.990 --> 02:26:04.370
this debate was coming up, I actually sit down and did the calculations, and I got results.
2246
02:26:04.875 --> 02:26:05.375
And
2247
02:26:06.635 --> 02:26:08.975
and I I I don't know. I mean
2248
02:26:10.235 --> 02:26:13.375
yeah. So I I wasn't trying to trap you there.
2249
02:26:19.540 --> 02:26:21.160
2250
02:26:22.325 --> 02:26:24.425
He's back. I I so I
2251
02:26:25.285 --> 02:26:27.465
Open Arms, you everything alright over there?
2252
02:26:29.520 --> 02:26:32.160
2253
02:26:33.200 --> 02:26:33.700
ISP
2254
02:26:34.641 --> 02:26:38.900
2255
02:26:39.636 --> 02:26:40.136
Awesome.
2256
02:26:41.075 --> 02:26:43.895
You know, pump pump pump would do something like a
2257
02:26:44.516 --> 02:26:50.440
ridiculous tweet. Oh, they're trying to they're trying to censor Citadel Dispatch. Please like and subscribe.
2258
02:26:53.061 --> 02:26:54.020
Yeah. I I I
2259
02:26:56.075 --> 02:27:02.175
look, I look forward to Wasabi 2 point o. I I I hope that there's there's an incentive to remix there.
2260
02:27:03.340 --> 02:27:06.960
I hope that users are encouraged to do it based on the the
2261
02:27:09.580 --> 02:27:11.280
the implementation and the defaults.
2262
02:27:12.936 --> 02:27:13.436
But,
2263
02:27:15.015 --> 02:27:19.830
yeah, I I I don't know. I I don't I'm trying to keep this conversation as actionable
2264
02:27:20.950 --> 02:27:21.450
possible,
2265
02:27:22.230 --> 02:27:23.370
and I feel like
2266
02:27:23.750 --> 02:27:26.650
maybe we've hit, like, kind of a wall here.
2267
02:27:27.830 --> 02:27:29.370
I do appreciate the insight.
2268
02:27:30.255 --> 02:27:31.315
I I guess
2269
02:27:33.455 --> 02:27:35.795
I don't know. Should we should we move on to
2270
02:27:37.510 --> 02:27:40.570
to another topic, or what are you guys thinking here?
2271
02:27:42.550 --> 02:27:47.625
2272
02:27:48.006 --> 02:27:53.285
of my calculations, but maybe I I it's it's important that to say
2273
02:27:54.150 --> 02:27:56.891
to just just to say my conclusions because
2274
02:27:57.670 --> 02:27:58.170
is
2275
02:27:58.630 --> 02:28:00.650
it is there a fee incentive
2276
02:28:01.110 --> 02:28:03.450
for the Wasabi coordinator to participate?
2277
02:28:05.415 --> 02:28:05.915
Yes.
2278
02:28:06.694 --> 02:28:07.194
And
2279
02:28:07.734 --> 02:28:09.755
it is definitely a problem.
2280
02:28:10.215 --> 02:28:10.715
However,
2281
02:28:11.095 --> 02:28:13.995
I don't think this leads to severe risk.
2282
02:28:14.680 --> 02:28:15.180
And
2283
02:28:15.880 --> 02:28:20.940
yeah. Never mind. And I think I could even prove that there is no
2284
02:28:21.676 --> 02:28:24.176
such civil attack on on Wasabi.
2285
02:28:24.955 --> 02:28:32.860
And, you know, maybe maybe maybe the most important thing is that why so if there is this fee incentive, why aren't we changing it?
2286
02:28:33.560 --> 02:28:37.260
Maybe that's that's what you are more most curious about.
2287
02:28:37.785 --> 02:28:38.285
It's
2288
02:28:38.745 --> 02:28:39.965
that, you know,
2289
02:28:40.505 --> 02:28:41.485
how the fees
2290
02:28:41.865 --> 02:28:42.765
are being,
2291
02:28:43.945 --> 02:28:46.285
collected and paid out is the
2292
02:28:46.931 --> 02:28:48.391
most most fundamental
2293
02:28:48.931 --> 02:28:53.671
business agreement that we have with our users and, you know, unilaterally
2294
02:28:54.051 --> 02:28:55.431
changing it without
2295
02:28:56.346 --> 02:28:56.846
without
2296
02:28:58.346 --> 02:29:01.886
very, very good reason, like like for Sabi 2.2.
2297
02:29:02.665 --> 02:29:03.945
I I think it's
2298
02:29:04.426 --> 02:29:05.565
it it would not
2299
02:29:06.030 --> 02:29:07.810
be a good idea because,
2300
02:29:08.990 --> 02:29:13.960
like, that's what that's that's our most fundamental agreement with our users. And,
2301
02:29:14.695 --> 02:29:17.354
and that's opens up a lot of problems.
2302
02:29:17.655 --> 02:29:18.314
You know?
2303
02:29:19.095 --> 02:29:23.435
2304
02:29:24.940 --> 02:29:26.480
2305
02:29:27.101 --> 02:29:27.601
every
2306
02:29:28.220 --> 02:29:30.800
well, Evan, we are we are mixing the incomes. Yes.
2307
02:29:32.495 --> 02:29:34.835
2308
02:29:35.615 --> 02:29:36.515
2309
02:29:40.300 --> 02:29:43.520
2310
02:29:46.939 --> 02:29:48.560
2311
02:29:49.100 --> 02:29:49.600
Right?
2312
02:29:53.725 --> 02:29:54.225
$0.16
2313
02:29:55.245 --> 02:29:58.545
per peer, and we are able to participate in,
2314
02:29:58.860 --> 02:30:01.200
I don't know, 5% of the mixes.
2315
02:30:02.860 --> 02:30:04.240
We we are not.
2316
02:30:05.020 --> 02:30:05.511
This is
2317
02:30:06.455 --> 02:30:08.955
you know, we are a participant in the mix.
2318
02:30:09.735 --> 02:30:11.435
It's it's not a coordinator
2319
02:30:11.895 --> 02:30:12.795
civil attack,
2320
02:30:13.575 --> 02:30:14.075
one
2321
02:30:16.400 --> 02:30:19.061
jumping in with a single user
2322
02:30:19.681 --> 02:30:20.580
for 5%
2323
02:30:20.881 --> 02:30:21.780
of the mixes.
2324
02:30:22.575 --> 02:30:24.275
Right? Do do you do you
2325
02:30:24.815 --> 02:30:26.195
do you agree with that,
2326
02:30:26.575 --> 02:30:29.475
or or do you think we should not use the
2327
02:30:30.461 --> 02:30:34.221
2328
02:30:34.620 --> 02:30:39.425
specifically. But, I mean, I I don't think the word Sybil implies a motive. Like, I don't think,
2329
02:30:39.745 --> 02:30:41.604
I I think you could be a good actor
2330
02:30:42.145 --> 02:30:43.365
and still be sibling.
2331
02:30:43.905 --> 02:30:47.604
Do we agree on that? Like, a civil attack a a a a civil is a very
2332
02:30:48.010 --> 02:30:50.830
is a is a very objective term. Right? It's just,
2333
02:30:51.689 --> 02:30:52.430
you're participating
2334
02:30:53.130 --> 02:30:59.185
in in something, and you're reducing the an onset because you know your own participation. Right?
2335
02:31:00.685 --> 02:31:03.744
2336
02:31:04.120 --> 02:31:06.620
in in in the context of coin joins. Right?
2337
02:31:09.479 --> 02:31:15.335
It implies that it's an attack on privacy. Sorry. Not anonymity set. I don't know why I said that. It's not a concurrency.
2338
02:31:15.795 --> 02:31:17.335
That that would be severe.
2339
02:31:18.596 --> 02:31:21.511
2340
02:31:22.450 --> 02:31:22.950
sibling.
2341
02:31:24.370 --> 02:31:30.150
Do we not like, like, is this not a thing? Like, if if if I'm running 5 clients,
2342
02:31:30.515 --> 02:31:37.975
but I have no intention of deanonymizing people, I'm still, like, 5 concurrent clients, and I'm joining a a a round
2343
02:31:38.380 --> 02:31:42.080
under the auspices that is 5 separate people, but it's really just me.
2344
02:31:42.540 --> 02:31:43.600
That's a civil
2345
02:31:43.979 --> 02:31:46.880
regardless of the fact that I'm trying to deanonymize people. Right?
2346
02:31:48.755 --> 02:31:52.215
2347
02:31:53.475 --> 02:31:54.375
the consequences
2348
02:31:55.074 --> 02:31:58.310
are not that anyone's privacy would meaningfully
2349
02:31:59.489 --> 02:32:00.950
be hurt by that.
2350
02:32:04.245 --> 02:32:08.425
So so if you want to do a real civil attack, right, that's 10,000
2351
02:32:08.805 --> 02:32:13.680
fresh Bitcoin monthly. You would have to have that much money for Ria Sibilata.
2352
02:32:14.380 --> 02:32:14.880
Assuming
2353
02:32:15.260 --> 02:32:17.200
Ria Sibilata already happening,
2354
02:32:17.740 --> 02:32:18.240
then
2355
02:32:18.860 --> 02:32:21.520
you are you have you are bringing in 9,000
2356
02:32:22.215 --> 02:32:23.515
Fresh Bitcoins monthly,
2357
02:32:24.535 --> 02:32:28.154
assuming that it's already happening and de anonymizing users,
2358
02:32:30.030 --> 02:32:30.530
unless
2359
02:32:31.630 --> 02:32:32.290
you are
2360
02:32:33.150 --> 02:32:33.650
remixing
2361
02:32:34.431 --> 02:32:35.891
all the time. Right?
2362
02:32:38.545 --> 02:32:46.720
Because if you're remixing all the time, then you don't have to bring 10,000 Fresh Bitcoins monthly. It's okay to look at them the daily volume,
2363
02:32:47.819 --> 02:32:48.479
which is
2364
02:32:49.340 --> 02:32:51.680
which is 300 Bitcoins. So
2365
02:32:52.125 --> 02:32:52.865
from 300
2366
02:32:53.404 --> 02:32:53.904
Bitcoin,
2367
02:32:54.925 --> 02:32:55.745
you can
2368
02:32:57.005 --> 02:32:57.505
civil
2369
02:32:58.365 --> 02:32:58.865
Wasabi
2370
02:33:00.210 --> 02:33:02.930
if you are the kind of the only one who is
2371
02:33:05.330 --> 02:33:06.470
so but
2372
02:33:07.145 --> 02:33:11.886
the problem there is that then you should see very high remixed numbers, like
2373
02:33:12.665 --> 02:33:13.165
95%
2374
02:33:14.346 --> 02:33:17.631
or something crazy like that, but you do not.
2375
02:33:19.051 --> 02:33:23.150
So the the thing here is that the civil attack is actually noticeable
2376
02:33:24.155 --> 02:33:32.360
2377
02:33:34.200 --> 02:33:34.700
Right?
2378
02:33:35.160 --> 02:33:36.061
2379
02:33:37.721 --> 02:33:40.141
if less people are remixing, then,
2380
02:33:41.125 --> 02:33:41.625
sorry,
2381
02:33:42.085 --> 02:33:43.064
if the
2382
02:33:43.604 --> 02:33:47.145
the remix number is not very close to a 100%,
2383
02:33:47.604 --> 02:33:49.385
then you must match
2384
02:33:51.220 --> 02:33:56.119
the the fresh Bitcoins coming to the mix in order to make it look like,
2385
02:33:56.659 --> 02:33:57.960
you know, no one is
2386
02:33:58.855 --> 02:34:01.275
no one is is is is doing anything.
2387
02:34:05.096 --> 02:34:07.756
So unless unless someone has,
2388
02:34:08.840 --> 02:34:09.739
well, 10,000
2389
02:34:10.359 --> 02:34:10.859
Bitcoin
2390
02:34:11.319 --> 02:34:14.859
new Bitcoins monthly, so that's a 100,000 yearly,
2391
02:34:15.640 --> 02:34:16.939
then there is
2392
02:34:17.335 --> 02:34:19.975
no remix except if the remix numbers are
2393
02:34:20.455 --> 02:34:24.875
sorry. Then there is no c b l, except if the remix numbers are high.
2394
02:34:25.311 --> 02:34:31.971
Because in that case, the daily volume would be enough because the confirmation target is about a day.
2395
02:34:32.596 --> 02:34:34.936
So that's you can't use the coins.
2396
02:34:35.395 --> 02:34:36.455
2397
02:34:37.075 --> 02:34:43.449
the main reason the coin join fee exists, not the network fee, the coin joint fee exists, is for Sybil resistance. Correct?
2398
02:34:45.910 --> 02:34:50.295
2399
02:34:50.755 --> 02:34:52.375
The CB resistance is,
2400
02:34:53.075 --> 02:34:57.109
hopefully coming from the network fees and the the initial requirements.
2401
02:34:57.970 --> 02:35:02.390
2402
02:35:03.409 --> 02:35:03.909
is
2403
02:35:04.370 --> 02:35:05.270
sybil resistant?
2404
02:35:07.205 --> 02:35:08.346
2405
02:35:08.966 --> 02:35:09.466
the
2406
02:35:10.886 --> 02:35:11.945
doing civils
2407
02:35:12.565 --> 02:35:13.065
on
2408
02:35:13.470 --> 02:35:17.729
on coin joints without coordinator fees are still very expensive.
2409
02:35:22.805 --> 02:35:24.985
2410
02:35:25.605 --> 02:35:28.425
but they they haven't really been historically. But
2411
02:35:30.630 --> 02:35:32.569
I I I I think I think
2412
02:35:33.109 --> 02:35:36.010
I think developers of CoinJoin implementations
2413
02:35:36.630 --> 02:35:38.490
should try and make it so
2414
02:35:39.125 --> 02:35:49.610
a a bad actor has to pay a a bad actor who's attempting to sybil has to pay more money than a good actor, an honest actor that is just attempting to gain privacy. Do we agree on
2415
02:35:50.830 --> 02:35:51.330
this?
2416
02:35:52.870 --> 02:35:56.410
2417
02:35:56.715 --> 02:35:58.895
2418
02:35:59.274 --> 02:36:01.215
so that if if,
2419
02:36:02.795 --> 02:36:06.130
if you're attempting to sybil, it costs you more money. If
2420
02:36:10.350 --> 02:36:15.615
if let let's say, hypothetically, it was possible. Would you agree that that is a better situation to be in?
2421
02:36:17.056 --> 02:36:17.556
2422
02:36:18.415 --> 02:36:23.875
I'm I'm sorry, but the point of Sibyl Attack is that make yourself look alike than other
2423
02:36:24.730 --> 02:36:25.710
honest peers.
2424
02:36:26.410 --> 02:36:27.310
So that's
2425
02:36:27.850 --> 02:36:28.750
that's like
2426
02:36:29.530 --> 02:36:33.056
there is a cognitive dissonance there. Right? Because if you can differentiate
2427
02:36:33.516 --> 02:36:35.695
between civil and non civil, then
2428
02:36:36.395 --> 02:36:36.895
then
2429
02:36:37.516 --> 02:36:40.550
then then you know that there is a single attack.
2430
02:36:40.930 --> 02:36:47.189
2431
02:36:47.806 --> 02:36:49.346
joined a coin join round,
2432
02:36:50.525 --> 02:36:51.985
with multiple UTXOs,
2433
02:36:53.245 --> 02:36:55.505
that were randomly selected to join
2434
02:36:56.011 --> 02:37:06.195
fall a subsequent route paid a smaller fee than someone who joined with concurrent implement you know, instances. They're running a bunch of instances at the same time,
2435
02:37:07.375 --> 02:37:12.596
and and they're they're practicing Sybil type behavior rather than a user who's
2436
02:37:12.971 --> 02:37:14.990
who's, you know, adding their
2437
02:37:15.770 --> 02:37:18.270
a a majority of their UTXOs at the same time.
2438
02:37:19.530 --> 02:37:21.335
Is that a better situation to be in?
2439
02:37:21.815 --> 02:37:24.715
2440
02:37:26.215 --> 02:37:26.375
who
2441
02:37:27.495 --> 02:37:29.255
so so you could look at the
2442
02:37:30.790 --> 02:37:31.850
what kind of UTXOs
2443
02:37:32.229 --> 02:37:38.090
are coming in in in the mixes and you know that a user who is joining with multiple UTXOs.
2444
02:37:42.805 --> 02:37:51.800
2445
02:37:52.340 --> 02:37:55.080
Right? And then tries to use tries to use,
2446
02:37:56.064 --> 02:37:57.045
process of elimination
2447
02:37:57.505 --> 02:38:03.444
to hurt the hurt the privacy of the other participants. Right? So if, let's say, at an extreme level,
2448
02:38:04.450 --> 02:38:08.229
a Sybil attacker comes in and they're 95 of the 100 inputs,
2449
02:38:09.250 --> 02:38:15.574
they can use that private knowledge that they're the 95 inputs to try and ruin the privacy of the remaining 5.
2450
02:38:16.835 --> 02:38:20.135
It would be hooved to me, it makes sense that
2451
02:38:20.540 --> 02:38:24.880
someone that that if you're working on trying to create a a coin joint tool,
2452
02:38:25.260 --> 02:38:26.720
you should try and make
2453
02:38:27.100 --> 02:38:27.600
that
2454
02:38:28.585 --> 02:38:29.885
that scenario
2455
02:38:30.425 --> 02:38:31.325
more expensive
2456
02:38:31.864 --> 02:38:37.165
than a scenario where the average user is coming in and they just want privacy and they just wanna be one input.
2457
02:38:37.810 --> 02:38:41.510
Right? Like like, that should be the way these systems are set up.
2458
02:38:42.690 --> 02:38:45.110
It's the number one attack that's used. Right?
2459
02:38:45.865 --> 02:38:48.045
2460
02:38:48.825 --> 02:38:49.325
then
2461
02:38:49.865 --> 02:38:53.484
what prevents me from breaking it down to
2462
02:38:54.024 --> 02:38:55.085
to small amounts?
2463
02:38:58.620 --> 02:39:00.640
2464
02:39:01.100 --> 02:39:01.600
is
2465
02:39:02.140 --> 02:39:02.640
in
2466
02:39:03.100 --> 02:39:03.600
Wasabi,
2467
02:39:03.979 --> 02:39:04.479
nothing.
2468
02:39:05.256 --> 02:39:07.355
With with Wasabi, if I'm running
2469
02:39:07.735 --> 02:39:09.756
if I'm running a 100 instances
2470
02:39:10.375 --> 02:39:11.995
that are mixing with each other,
2471
02:39:13.330 --> 02:39:18.070
I pay the same fee as if I'm running one instance and just running my coins through it.
2472
02:39:19.570 --> 02:39:21.110
It's the same exact fee
2473
02:39:22.145 --> 02:39:29.120
except for network fees, which I do agree add extra Sybil resistance when fees go up, but fees have barely gone up.
2474
02:39:30.080 --> 02:39:38.580
2475
02:39:38.995 --> 02:39:39.815
The same. Yeah.
2476
02:39:41.795 --> 02:39:43.495
2477
02:39:46.560 --> 02:39:50.500
2478
02:39:50.880 --> 02:39:51.380
participants
2479
02:39:52.560 --> 02:39:54.740
in in this setup, but, you know,
2480
02:39:55.386 --> 02:39:58.445
I don't know if we can solve the, you know
2481
02:40:00.905 --> 02:40:03.325
yeah. You cannot guarantee the new entrants. Right?
2482
02:40:03.811 --> 02:40:07.030
I mean that that is that is the the question because
2483
02:40:07.570 --> 02:40:08.390
as 6102
2484
02:40:08.690 --> 02:40:12.950
have, pointed it out, if we let people remix free
2485
02:40:13.255 --> 02:40:13.755
then
2486
02:40:15.255 --> 02:40:21.750
and that's what Nupa is saying as well, then the possible simple attack will become much more cheap. Right?
2487
02:40:22.290 --> 02:40:23.430
So unless
2488
02:40:24.290 --> 02:40:24.950
you would
2489
02:40:26.050 --> 02:40:26.550
have
2490
02:40:27.250 --> 02:40:29.830
a guarantee in every round that
2491
02:40:30.535 --> 02:40:32.555
the new participants need to be
2492
02:40:33.255 --> 02:40:34.635
a set percentage,
2493
02:40:35.015 --> 02:40:37.115
and then the remix
2494
02:40:37.814 --> 02:40:39.035
participants are
2495
02:40:40.010 --> 02:40:40.990
chosen randomly.
2496
02:40:41.450 --> 02:40:44.510
But, you know, that's would be pretty much applying
2497
02:40:45.689 --> 02:40:50.005
another implementation to a service. So that's not the solution, I guess.
2498
02:40:52.065 --> 02:40:55.205
2499
02:40:55.905 --> 02:40:56.405
to
2500
02:40:57.290 --> 02:41:00.989
the if the coordinator has the whole blockchain and can work
2501
02:41:01.529 --> 02:41:06.510
on that properly, then you should be able to make sure that
2502
02:41:08.284 --> 02:41:13.984
the thing the inputs that you accept into the coin joints are as disjointed
2503
02:41:14.524 --> 02:41:16.145
on chain as possible.
2504
02:41:17.710 --> 02:41:21.650
But, yeah, I mean, you do some some centralized mixing, and
2505
02:41:22.110 --> 02:41:23.810
that will break it. I I
2506
02:41:24.189 --> 02:41:25.170
maybe not.
2507
02:41:25.955 --> 02:41:29.655
I I I I don't I I don't know. Maybe I'm just going off tangent here.
2508
02:41:36.010 --> 02:41:37.869
But but but, I mean,
2509
02:41:38.329 --> 02:41:39.630
it it doesn't
2510
02:41:40.729 --> 02:41:43.069
really matter that much because
2511
02:41:44.955 --> 02:41:46.255
sibling is expensive
2512
02:41:46.875 --> 02:41:47.615
even in
2513
02:41:48.075 --> 02:41:48.735
in non
2514
02:41:50.635 --> 02:41:51.855
even in in scenarios
2515
02:41:52.235 --> 02:41:58.330
when when no one is trying to to prevent them, the volume is the
2516
02:41:59.109 --> 02:41:59.609
main
2517
02:42:00.149 --> 02:42:01.290
obstacle there
2518
02:42:01.846 --> 02:42:09.466
that you have to match the the honest users' bitcoins with yours, and that's how you can can get the,
2519
02:42:09.790 --> 02:42:10.770
you know, the anonymize
2520
02:42:11.150 --> 02:42:15.170
them. If you can't match the honest users' Bitcoins, then
2521
02:42:15.790 --> 02:42:17.490
I don't know. It's
2522
02:42:18.785 --> 02:42:19.686
it's got messy.
2523
02:42:24.306 --> 02:42:26.165