March 17, 2021
CD13: practical bitcoin privacy and "open source" licenses with @btcxzelko and @likewh0a
EPISODE: 0.1.3
BLOCK: 674925
PRICE: 1776 sats per dollar
TOPICS: practical bitcoin privacy, open source licenses
btcxzelko : https://twitter.com/btcxzelko
likewh0a : https://twitter.com/likewh0a
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00:00 - Bitcoin's growing popularity in Latin America
29:53 - Challenges and priorities for full node projects in Latin America
43:02 - Running your own node and wallet security
43:46 - Benefits of using Whirlpool for privacy
01:03:24 - The importance of open source licenses
01:25:29 - Discussion about the idea of open source software and the benefits of building on shared values and innovation
01:32:03 - Debate about the effectiveness of CoinJoin and the importance of user privacy
01:53:32 - Conversation about the pros and cons of Lightning Network as a post-mix tool
02:07:03 - Running Lightning Network and Ronin Dojo on separate nodes
02:08:20 - The problem of running too many applications on one machine
02:13:32 - The importance of splitting up value and resources
02:36:11 - The need for privacy improvements at the core level
02:44:19 - The lack of adoption of BIP 47 by other wallets
02:48:13 - Use code humble, all caps
02:48:38 - Guns and Bitcoin conference in Austin
02:50:28 - New features and designs for privacy
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:45 PM
Duration: 10732.826
Channels: 1
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To say what to say. Can you can you explain the move,
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over the weekend? Obviously, we've come back now a bit. I don't know if you we were described we did discussing whether we call that a correction. Is 10% a correction in Bitcoin land?
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You know, Bitcoin's trading like a 100 vol, instrument at this point. So, yeah, 10%,
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I guess, is within the one standard one standard deviation,
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up and down move these days.
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Listen. You know, the stimulus checks are coming. People are excited about that. A lot of the stimulus checks are going to young people who wanna buy Bitcoin.
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But more importantly from that,
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in the last 3 months, we've had this secular shift where Bitcoin has become an asset. It's not maybe, it's not, it might be. It's now an asset class.
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Cryptocurrency is an asset class. Every bank is moving in. Every tech company is moving in, and all portfolios are starting to move in. And so if you're not long, you're short, And that's just what you see on every dip. There are institutional buyers lined up to buy this thing.
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So you think this is it you think this weekend was institutions,
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not retail money? No. This was this weekend was retail. What happens on the weekend is retail gets excited. You can tell because the cost of leverage goes way up on the weekend. And so the base is trading different measures of how expensive it is to get leverage goes up.
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Then you maybe one bad story, one nervous,
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you know, moment, and everyone stops themselves back out. And so, you know, from Friday afternoon, we're roughly a percent from where we were.
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And so if you're a normal market, you come in Monday morning, you roll up your sleeves, and you're like, okay. Nothing's changed.
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Bitcoin goes 247.
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And so for the Bitcoiners, it was a big weekend.
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What is up, freaks? It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.
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This is Citadel Dispatch
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episode 13,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software
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streamed every Tuesday
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at 21 100 UTC.
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Yes. I said 21 100 UTC.
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Last week, that was 22100
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UTC, but because of this ridiculous daylight savings time, it has switched in the meantime. I do like that better.
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It is broadcast through Twitch, YouTube, and Twitter. Thank you for joining us.
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To to the freaks that are here live as always,
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you make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is,
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and then it will also be posted to our podcast feed,
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onto Telegram and onto Keybase, where you can download every episode in full
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without ads.
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So
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with that said,
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I'm Matt O'Dell. I'm here with Like Woah. I'm here with
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BTC Zelco.
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We're gonna be talking Bitcoin privacy. Before I get there, the clip in the beginning of you joining us on the podcast feed was our boy, Michael
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Novogratz,
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Novo of Galaxy,
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Galaxy Digital.
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Yes. He's a little bit of a shit corner, but he's joined with Andrew Ross Sorkin,
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of CNBC
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who is consistently deflated about the rising price of Bitcoin.
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Just kind of funny just seeing,
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this idea of of the stimulus checks of just sending money directly to people,
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being talked about on mainstream financial media
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in a way that it's just a foregone conclusion that they're gonna take the checks, and they're gonna put it right into Bitcoin. What a lot of people don't realize is,
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in countries in other countries, including Canada, they've been sending them stimulus checks this whole time,
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and those people are most likely just putting them right into Bitcoin.
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Anyway, guys,
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it's been a crazy week at Bitcoin, and I'm excited to be here
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with both BTC,
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Zelco, and LikeWoah.
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They are most well known
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for their work with the Ronin Dojo project.
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The Ronin Dojo project is a privacy focused project,
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that is focused on the
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full node stack of Samura1 Wallet.
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You can find them at ronendojo.io.
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With that said, I'd like to introduce both of our guests. Let's start with BTC Zelco. Zelco, how's it going over there?
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Yo. What's up, brother?
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It's, it's another good day. I mean, I can't complain. It's funny seeing, some mainstream people finally acknowledge
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that, you know, Bitcoin's a thing. So cheers to that as always.
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What's up, like, well, I saw you disconnect and reconnect a couple times during our intro. I hope everything's alright over there. Let's do it live.
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Everything's alright, but, you know, I got a paranoid,
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browser extension that disables all kinds of scripts, so I had to reload it. You know? But I'm glad to be here. Looking forward to having a chat with both of you guys, and let's do this.
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Fuck. Yes.
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So with all that said,
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I guess a great place to start
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is
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why should people care
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about
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Bitcoin privacy? And we will start with Selco.
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Alright. Well, I mean, 1st and foremost, right, like, what is Bitcoin? Right? I mean, it's a public distributed ledger, peer to peer digital cash, but, you know, the different the the
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thing that makes it different, right, is
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it's a
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ledger that's contained of all transactions. Right? So,
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versus cash, which is private, anonymous,
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no one can track what you do and what you know, like, how you spend it. Right?
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So,
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you know, if we're trying to get back to the to the main goal of what Bitcoin was supposed to be published in, you know, the white papers,
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you know, we need to find a way to operate
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in a more private way. And so, you know, if you're not thinking about that, like, you know, of course, there's people that you wanna hold until until the moon. Right? At some point, you're gonna wanna spend. Like, at some point, you're gonna wanna cash out and buy your Tesla or,
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you know, buy your your fucking house or your boat, whatever it is. Right? But
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if you can't do it privately, you're just gonna get screwed. So
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let let's figure that out, and let's figure it out so when people do wanna spend their money however they wanna spend their money, Right? Let's fucking figure that out now.
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So, I mean, I I think this is something that people don't realize,
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or or they they they do realize, but
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on places like Twitter where where Nuance is difficult,
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we tend to see people fall into these 2 camps,
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where you have,
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hardliners on both sides. I will never spend my Bitcoin. We have Ray Euro in the comments. I don't wanna spend
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And then you have the other side who's like, Bitcoin, the number will never go up,
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and it's not a good investment. It's a speculative investment. Bitcoin is meant to be spent, and they're on the exact opposite side.
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Really, the nuance is somewhere in the middle. Right? Like, good money should be able to be spent or saved at will with no permission required.
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And with that being said,
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you know, if you can't spend something without permission
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in the future,
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because it's
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easily tracked, and as a result, you can be punished for any kind of spending you do after the fact,
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then it's not truly censorship resistant in my opinion. So you need to have both.
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The value prop of Bitcoin relies on both. It relies on it on an increasing in value, in my opinion, and it relies on the fact that you can spend it at will,
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without anyone punishing you for your spending.
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Would you agree with that? Would you agree with that, Silco?
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Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Like, the whole point is, like, if you can get censored,
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then,
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you know, like, what make what makes Bitcoin different
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if other than just being, like, an expensive, like, PayPal or Venmo,
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if you go to try it or
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Cash App, I'll throw that one out there for you. But the if I can't if I can't send my money to whoever I want whenever I want,
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like, the then what's the point? Like, what what is it actually solving? You know, I I'm all forward number. I don't think anyone in the Bitcoin space is upset when the number goes up.
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Like, I can't meet like, and trust me. I'm with enough people
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that bash on, on number 12 memes. But,
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at the end of the day,
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everyone here is happy.
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You know.
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But, you know, at what point and it was kind of the one of the things that I like to talk about and think about is, like, you know, at what point are we willing to, like, trade,
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compliance,
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you know, with,
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you know, just for the number to go up. Like But is that a straw man?
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It is a straw man, but, like, I mean, it's something to think about though. Right? Like, what,
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you know, what's what's a line in the sand?
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You know, what what's and everyone's line in the sand is different. Right? But that's something that each Bitcoiner should think about. You know, you should be thinking about I mean,
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I so
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not to cut you off, Zelco, but first of all, I mean, but both, both Zelco and Laika become good friends of mine. Laika is part of the New York City Bitcoin community,
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so he's he's one of the Bitcoiners that I know in person very well,
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which continues a routine of this show where I bring on friends, and I feel comfortable interrupting them. So apologies, Elko, but I did wanna jump in here. Go ahead. Before I get to that, I just wanted to really quick shout out, quinsolo.com.
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We did, like, last week when we had Rockstar and Suheb on, we did a a random giveaway when when me and Rockstar were drunk, and I guess he just kind of opted in Quinn solo to give, like, a dope ass flask that was that was, engraved,
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or it's, like, labeled. He, like,
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he does, like, this really nice
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design on top of on top of leather.
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He actually had sent me a flask previously unrelated. So this is not the content or anything, but he actually did follow through on it, and Rad Vladdy won that giveaway of guessing the price. He won by 55¢
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with his guess of
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$55,000, 555.55¢.
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So just to put that all in perspective,
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you know, people think Bitcoin crashed. We're basically at the same exact price as we were last
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So just shout out to Quincello. I thought I might have had to buy that flash, so I appreciate,
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the guys over there stepping in and actually doing it.
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Yeah. Quincell is awesome. Can I just Yeah? So cut you off since we're friends. Fuck yes. Cut me off. Yeah. No. Quincell is fucking awesome. I've, I've bought stuff from him for a while now, and he's a he's a super,
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super dope dude. And,
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you guys should definitely check out his stuff. I mean, he's he's
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it's awesome. I don't know. I like when Bitcoin is actually, like, try to make things that they enjoy and that they wanna give back to the community. So,
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check it out. Support him if you can. Yeah. I have a bunch of, samurai, like magnets and stuff from him that are on my on my parents' fridge,
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because I I don't have a home, so I just put it on their fridge.
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And they prob they have no idea what it is. They just they're like these are cool little ninjas.
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So, anyway, sorry for derailing that. I just wanted to make sure I gave him a shout out because I did appreciate him honoring it after the fact even though I'm pretty sure Rockstar just, like, kind of threw him into there.
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So I so just to get back to what you said, I mean, I I think it's a false dichotomy. I think it doesn't matter. It's not a question of whether or not someone's going to throw away their principles or number go up.
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I think number go up relies on being able to spend privately.
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And I think
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whether someone is willing to give away their principles or not is a is a separate subject.
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If we if we end up in a situation where you can't spend Bitcoin privately, number will stop going up.
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Okay.
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Would you agree with that?
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I mean, I think that that makes sense,
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right, in theory.
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But,
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I mean, like, Bitcoin needs to be spent. If you don't spend Bitcoin, it, like, it doesn't the number can't go up. Right? The the liquidity buys. It's not censorship resistant anymore.
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Exactly. You know? But I think Bitcoins that have been around understand that concept of censorship resistance. You know? And and I meet more people now. Like, anytime you're in a bull run, right, you get all the people that if they know that you know about Bitcoin and they wanna find out about it, talk about it, and the only thing they care about is that initial investment. And and, like, that's cool.
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Part of me dies inside, you know, because I I give them the pitch on privacy and, you know, and,
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censorship resistance
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and decentralization,
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all the fun stuff. But at the end of the day, like
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and it kinda goes I've talked about this with a lot of people. It's like, how do you pitch Bitcoin? Right? If you're pitching it on, like, hey. Hold this, and then you're gonna have more money in the end. Right? That's what they're gonna do until that number doesn't until we hit the end of the bear the bull market, and then we get our big pull backwards,
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and then they get upset. Right? And then they sell because they have weak hands because they they're not bought in, you know, and that's, I mean, I guess that's our job, mostly your job, Matt.
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But our job is to get to get them to understand the why. Like, why Bitcoin? Like, it's not just a stock, you know, and trying to get people out of that mindset of like, oh, this is this is an investment tool, and this is this. It's like, no. Like, this is money. Like, this is, like,
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like, life changing shit that we can actually,
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you know, use in the future. You know, there are people in other countries, and that's why it's really cool. Like, the samurai community that's in,
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Spanish speaking countries is massive.
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And I think that's awesome because they need it. Right? Like, they need censorship resistance. They need privacy.
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Yeah. And so, like, in it, you know, maybe in, like, countries like America where, you know, it's not really people aren't thinking about it. They don't know. It's more subversive
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of how
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how we're getting, like, spied on and how censorship can happen. You know, it's a it might be a slow,
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you know, slow drip,
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but, you know, we're seeing it. And, you know, the same thing happens whether it's with guns or whether it's with,
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you know, with Bitcoin. But, like,
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we we need to be conscious of, like, that fact that Bitcoin is about being able to spend it. You know? And that's why, like, yeah, I'm not a big lightning guy, but, like, I I see the value of it. Right? Like, if it works
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if it works and everything's great, you know, like, it's meant as a tool so that you can spend,
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that's awesome. I wanna spend my Bitcoin. I wanna be able to put it back into the economy.
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Right? That circular economy is what Bitcoin needs to thrive.
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Holding on to your Bitcoin till the end of your life does no one any good.
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So, I mean,
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I cosign your message a 100%.
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Very excited.
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I'm very excited. I'm very proud of the fact that we have a large amount of Latin American freaks.
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I expect there to be a very strong Latin American presence on this show, specifically, so they'll dispatch.
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We are gonna unpack your lightning comment in the future. I do already have that on my scratch pad. I think it's kind of funny that the 2 biggest community,
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the big 2 biggest subcommunities
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of Bitcoin that are focused on spending in a relatively private matter,
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tend to not
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intermix well.
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And I I do think Lightning is underrated as a post mix tool,
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and I think both Lightning people and
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CoinJoin people,
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I don't know. There's just not that much overlap. We're gonna talk about that. And then one thing before I pull in, like, woah here, I just wanna make clear,
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you did mention
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you gave me a token,
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mention of Cash App when you mentioned all the evil centralized payment platforms.
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You're like you're like Venmo, PayPal, and I'll give it to you, Cash App.
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My my my Cash App is Sickoiner.
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Well, I know it is. I know it is like well, before I bring you into this, I just wanna make clear Cash App is a sponsor
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of Rapid Whole Recap, but they're not a sponsor still of dispatch.
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We have no sponsors on this show, and in fact, I do tend to,
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when I'm feeling a little bit buzzed in the middle of the episode, throw in a a quick free bisque chill.
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And and and to be clear, anyone who's watching the video as they know if they're they're a return freak,
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we have the Coinbase Pro price on top, the evil empire, and then on bottom, we actually have the BISK ticker,
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which right now is showing a massive
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24,000,000
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Sats worth of volume compared to the 76 100 Bitcoin worth of volume on Coinbase.
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But we do highlight it here. Like, woah.
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Do you believe that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever?
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I believe it will be. I mean, I'm I'm I'm holding Bitcoin
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mostly for my children.
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I I'm the kind of person that, you know, like, so I like to spend it too. Everybody needs spend it. We have, you know, we got the huddle game. You know, everybody wants to hold it forever. Right? They don't wanna spend it. Eventually, you're not gonna need to spend it because you can take out loans based on it. Right?
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But for me, it's I wanna hold it for, you know, generational wealth. I want my children's children to
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enjoy it later on when I'm gone. Because
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for me to realize it, they're gonna realize it, not me. I'm not gonna be around for you know, until it gets to that pump that everybody's gonna be like, holy shit. You know, Bitcoin is at 5,000,000.
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So to me, I'm gonna hold that bitch, and I'm just gonna keep holding it tight.
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So, I mean, Zelco, I haven't met you yet, but I I I don't think,
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you have
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children yet. I mean, I I think Like Woah is our our family man here.
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Like Woah, I'm I'm curious, you know, how do you
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did you view Bitcoin? Do you think you view Bitcoin differently from us from us,
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you know, not fathers yet?
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What's that perspective?
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No. I think that, you know, people who don't have kids right now,
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you know, you guys should think about having kids because, I mean, this is what we're meant to do. We're meant to procreate. Right?
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I know a lot of people say, oh, you know, it's too many children, too many people in the world, you know. No. Fuck that. You know? Just
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need to
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how are you gonna live forever? Right?
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You're gonna clone yourself. You're gonna pass on your DNA. That's that's how you're gonna become immortal.
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So to me, I think that children are not just only a blessing,
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they bring your purpose in life. And, you know,
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they're gonna be holding my seats in the end. So
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that's the way I see it.
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But, you know, it's very hard for a lot of people. Everybody's, you know, too worried about, you know, their careers. You know, they're thinking, you know, it's not enough time. It's not the right time. You know?
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You know, we're too young. We're too young. Just fucking have kids already. That's it.
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If you don't mind me asking, how many children do you have?
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I have 3. I have 2 boys and a girl.
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Wow.
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Impressive, dude.
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Thank you. Thank you.
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But in terms of, you know, the, the Spanish community, the Latin community,
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they're very, very much aware of, you know,
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the the censorship resistant of Bitcoin. And I've been seeing a lot a lot of activity in the Spanish community, especially in the samurai community. They're pretty big right now. And,
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once we release, Ronin Dojo 1.9, I'm going to actually be creating a fork
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that's going to have a full translation into Spanish for the Spanish community to enjoy.
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So that way, it's coming up shortly after the release.
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That's awesome. Out there that, you know, that speaks Spanish and doesn't really understand English, we're gonna have a Spanish version of Ronin Dojo.
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So let's let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, I I think the South South American community specifically, right, they they
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you you don't have to you don't have to explain the value prop of Bitcoin to them. They already know that they need a better money. Right? Yeah. Then think about Venezuela, how, you know, they their money turned to shit by inflation. Right? I mean, that's that's basically the way that we're going right now with the USD, you know, but it's it's it's gonna take a little bit longer. But, you know, Venezuela, they got screwed over and their money became worthless. And now they, you know, they discover Bitcoin and they have this, you know, this money that cannot be inflated. It's not controlled by their government.
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They can transact, you know, peer to peer. They don't have to go through a third party. You know, it's it's it cannot be, confiscated by their government. You know, they cannot be censored. So it's it's it's very much something that they want to start using. And I and I see see this, you know, happening in other countries where, you know, governments are, you know, just having control of people's capitals.
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And Bitcoin just gives people back control of their capital. And this is something
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that people in America don't understand so much because, you know, over here,
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it's not happening so much as it's happening in other countries.
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Right? Where people's, you know, capital gets confiscated or, you know, it gets their their money gets, you know, inflated and it becomes worthless.
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So I've seen I've seen a lot of this in in South America. A lot of people in Colombia. A lot of people in Venezuela.
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I see a lot of people in in Chile. It's just all over South America and Central America right now is is the Bitcoin, you know, word-of-mouth is going around.
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Yo. Congratulations to Zelco for figuring out how to get into the YouTube chat.
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I had to figure I had to do it. There's been a bunch of stuff that I looked at that was awesome that I wanted to I'm gonna comment on, and then we'll come back and talk too.
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Oh, and just just real quick before I'll you carry on with the
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the Spanish community idea, I just wanted to say that I also am a father, father of 2.
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So me and, like, Will actually both had daughters Gotcha. Within, like, 2 weeks of each other.
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We call them little Ronan babies,
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but, well, shout out to
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One sentence, I think not. Everything happens for a reason.
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Goddamn right. Yeah. But Cute. Yeah. Shout out to the wides as well because, like, honestly, like, without without them, like, I I don't know how either of us are doing what we do, but,
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yeah, I I also think about it as a future.
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So
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Dude, first of all, congratulations. I didn't know that.
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You,
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Yeah. I I I
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you you have you have good OPSEC in that regard. I didn't I did not realize you were a father.
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A lot of respect there. Let's unpack just really quickly. I mean, because I don't think there's enough discussion about this period in the Bitcoin space.
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You know, I don't have a wife yet. We are getting married this year. She's she's my fiance currently.
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But, I mean, I think the ladies of Bitcoin,
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or
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well, we have lots of ladies of Bitcoin, but but the ladies of of
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of of the Bitcoiners that we know,
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they're they're, like, they're leverage long Bitcoin. They're, like, I in some ways, they're more Bitcoin than I am, you know, because, like, I can imagine you decide that you're gonna have kids with someone like me or, like, like, someone like like Lowe or someone like you, Zelco. Like, how how does like, that that that concept, like, you're you're a 100% going you're you're going fucking a 100 x long on Bitcoin,
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marrying and having kids with the Bitcoiner.
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Yeah. I mean, I mean, I I think it depends on when you get into the Bitcoin game, like, or when you find your person. So, like, your fiancee number 1, congratulations.
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Your fiancee has to be all in. Right?
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It it depends on when they found you. Right? Like, me and my wife have been together pre Bitcoin. So pre Bitcoin oh, I mean,
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no. Not pre Bitcoin as a whole, you know, but pre Bitcoin
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me finding out about Bitcoin. So,
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and her dad was the one that turned me onto it. So
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I think it depends.
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And, my wife is I mean, she's, like, part of our team now. You know, she's helping us out with the Ronin side. Like, she's helping us out with, you know, building cases and, you know, putting nodes together, and
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I'm teaching her to do QA as we speak. So, like,
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yeah, she's
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she's awesome. She's all in now,
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but it wasn't always the case. It was always it it depended. You know?
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It's kinda hard. It's hard for any normal person to really
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grasp Bitcoin and understand
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and understand, like, the value and understand, like, that this isn't going to 0 tomorrow. You know what I mean? And I think My my lady survived 2 bear markets before I proposed to her.
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See, that's that's a win.
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Yeah. That's a she's a keeper. She's a keeper. She survived. Bear market?
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So many people, you know, their their girlfriends or fiances left them at the bear market, you know, but, you know, they're calling them now.
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Okay. I love both of you guys. So let let before we move on, let's let's I really like this this South American tangent.
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So so,
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like, what what's your plan here like? Well,
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you know, I I I there's there's been amazing,
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you know, you guys know and the freaks know that I've been talking about Bitcoin privacy for 2 years now, at least publicly very hard,
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longer than that really, to be honest.
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And and and the the main people that pick up what I'm putting down is the Latin American community.
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So it makes sense to me that we have large pickup, of samurai wallet down there. Does that change how you view the product going forward and and how you how you or the project going forward? Because Ronin Dojo, we're gonna get into this as a as a free open source project.
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It's not directly monetizable. Is is that how like, does how does that affect how you view the project going forward?
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I think that, right now,
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I did not I I wasn't
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aware that the samurai community has such a big Spanish
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community
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until I started to work with Ron and Dojo. And
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everybody's so eager in there to
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learn. It's incredible.
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And the the channels in Telegram are so active. There's, I mean, literally
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dozens of people talking at at the same time,
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and it's just
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huge. And I really want to get more involved and focus more
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towards them. So that's why I started out, you know, I I got about 3 guys who basically went and run-in doo doo, and I and I direct everybody to go ahead and just basically
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translate all the menus.
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So we got everything translated.
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It's just a matter of me just going in there and just merging all their changes into running Dojo.
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The future is that I'm going to add
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multilingual support on running Dojo. So, basically, it's gonna start out as Spanish,
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but later on, we're gonna be able to,
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translate into multiple languages. So it's not just, you know, Latin community.
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I want to
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reach out to whatever other communities out there who are interested in in using samurai,
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you know, using Dojo. Whatever it is that we have on there, they want to go ahead and, you know, do translations for us, go ahead and do it. We will upset any pull request.
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And the thing is, you know, we want to be able to keep it in the hands and let everybody be able to use it. You know? Whatever language you speak, we're gonna we're gonna be able to let you
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utilize it in your own language. So that's one of the plans down the road.
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You know, it's not a priority right now, but because there's other things that need to be done. But that's something that I I feel very passionate about is reaching out to, to multilingual,
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countries.
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I mean, it goes in with, like, the whole open source nature of everything. Right? Bitcoin isn't isolated to, you know, one one country
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or one,
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you know, one language. So
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as we as we move forward, that's obviously the goal. Oh, and, you know, PR is always accepted. I mean, this is,
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I know we're gonna get into the whole licensing,
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licensing topic, but,
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you know, we we really wanna provide these tools for everybody. That's why we started this,
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and that's why,
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that's why we do it. We wanted to make it easy for anybody and everybody,
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you know, at a reasonable whether it's plug and play style or whether it's actual just like, hey. You get your own hardware and you do it. We support multiple different,
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actual, like, single board computers, and soon, you know, we'll have the full computer,
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the x86 set up. You know, the the whole goal is to provide
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an easy
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easy experience, and it's just reliable.
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You know? Like,
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the the whole idea of running is to just give you the tools that you need.
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No more, no less. Give you what you need so you can just sit there and have that privacy and know that back of your mind whenever you're out and about and you're spending in the streets,
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hey, my node's running and it's good to go.
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So
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go ahead.
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Sorry.
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So, I mean, when when I'm when I'm thinking about,
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you know, we have all these different full node projects. Right? When I'm thinking about a full node project that has a large subset of users in Latin American country,
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I'm thinking of, 3 3 main priorities
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that I think you guys would cosign
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that that you wanna focus on because,
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you have such a large,
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buy in, and you have a large user base down there.
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The first thing is low cost.
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Low cost, just keep costs low and and keep accessibility low. It's hard to bring hardware into a lot of Latin American countries. So you want,
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general purpose hardware that is cheaply able to obtain and able to to access. Let me add that let me add to that, Matt, if you don't mind me.
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Yes. Add. So so once we ask x86 support,
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people, for instance, in Venezuela and places, you know, Iraq or, you know, anywhere where it's hard to get a Raspberry PI or, you know, get a single board computer
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into the hands of, you know, people.
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We they're gonna be able go ahead and run, run a dojo on a virtual machine on their own computer.
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So that would be something that they'll be able to do without having to, you know, try to figure out how how they're gonna get their, you know, their own dedicated, you know, computers gonna be running 247.
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But in that sense, you know, they're gonna be they're gonna have to, you know, use up a lot of electricity because if you run it on desktop computer, you gotta make sure that it's running 247.
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Otherwise, you're gonna have to wait for the for the blocks to, you know, to catch up and everything. But x86 support, like, so commission,
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that's going to get people that that option in in countries where they can't get a single
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So so you can just run it on, like, your old laptop or something? Yeah. You can run it on a laptop. You can run it on a desktop. You know, you can run it on, you know, on a virtual machine, you know, or whatnot. Just just, you know, just, the x86 architecture will be supported.
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Right. So let's
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so I I so so number 1 is low cost easy accessibility.
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I think that falls into that as well, but but just
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it it's it's 2 fold. Right? It's it's making it available for as many platforms as possible, so you have easier accessibility,
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and then also making it as as performant as possible so that you could have,
378
00:31:44.555 --> 00:31:48.210
you know, weaker hardware can can can support it.
379
00:31:48.669 --> 00:31:51.890
And then the other two things I would add is is reliability.
380
00:31:53.390 --> 00:31:56.610
You know, if you're if you live in a country with rolling blackouts,
381
00:31:58.825 --> 00:32:02.284
poor Internet connection, that that type of thing, you want,
382
00:32:02.664 --> 00:32:05.485
no funds to be at risk and you want it to still work.
383
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:07.700
And then
384
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:09.460
the the
385
00:32:09.760 --> 00:32:11.460
the last thing I would say is
386
00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:15.940
is privacy by default. So you want a situation where you don't want,
387
00:32:16.695 --> 00:32:19.595
your government to know that you're necessarily running Bitcoin.
388
00:32:21.815 --> 00:32:24.795
You don't you don't want them to realize that you're doing anything
389
00:32:25.100 --> 00:32:26.880
potentially viewed as nefarious,
390
00:32:28.299 --> 00:32:32.320
and it could be life or death for those users. Would you agree with those 3
391
00:32:33.260 --> 00:32:33.760
tenants?
392
00:32:35.305 --> 00:32:36.445
I definitely agree.
393
00:32:37.305 --> 00:32:39.725
Yeah. And definitely those are all good points.
394
00:32:40.105 --> 00:32:41.405
And, I mean,
395
00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:46.240
the the privacy by default, I mean, that really comes down to how we ship and spend.
396
00:32:47.260 --> 00:32:55.245
I mean, especially for, like, how it's marked, right, and what type of shipping it comes in. So, I mean, that's definitely all in our radar,
397
00:32:55.545 --> 00:33:08.290
if we're doing the plug and play style. But at the same time, if these users have access to any of those and when we have the the x86, I mean, like, there's nothing nefarious with a laptop. There's nothing nefarious with
398
00:33:08.625 --> 00:33:13.445
really a computer, you know, and you'll be able to do that. And then at the same time, you know, like,
399
00:33:14.545 --> 00:33:25.430
you know, you said funds at risk, and that's kinda one of the benefits of, like, you know, if there's a rolling blackout. Right? Like, of course, you know, if we if we had, like, a a even more premium version,
400
00:33:25.810 --> 00:33:35.715
we we can add a a UPS on there, right, so that there's extra power in case that there's a blackout. But it I mean, the beauty of of Dojo and versus
401
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:40.820
you know, I know we'll talk about lightning in a little bit, but Mhmm. The beauty of that versus,
402
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:48.295
you know, running a lightning node is I have no channels. I have no funds that are inherently at risk because I have no coins
403
00:33:48.755 --> 00:33:51.175
that are on my Dojo. Right? Like,
404
00:33:51.875 --> 00:33:54.695
I think that's, like, a underrated aspect of
405
00:33:55.270 --> 00:33:58.970
having a Dojo where it provides all the functionality that you need,
406
00:33:59.270 --> 00:34:01.929
you know, but there's nothing at risk, you know. And
407
00:34:02.565 --> 00:34:08.345
even despite that fact, right, we keep we keep our hardware, like, locked down, you know, to
408
00:34:08.805 --> 00:34:12.950
as minimal as possible. Right? It's like, you know, wherever we SSH into
409
00:34:13.490 --> 00:34:13.990
and
410
00:34:14.450 --> 00:34:15.510
the port for
411
00:34:15.970 --> 00:34:17.590
not not even the port for
412
00:34:18.405 --> 00:34:23.225
for the UI. We do that through Tor. Everything else is through Tor. So you have one open port,
413
00:34:23.525 --> 00:34:33.450
you know, and then you have failed to ban. You have everything else. So it's, you know, you're talking about very minimal chance of anything happening. And then if something did happen to your to your box,
414
00:34:34.055 --> 00:34:38.954
what you lose nothing. You lose if someone can dig through your database,
415
00:34:39.575 --> 00:34:46.620
right, something in someone could dig through your database, they can get your ex bulb. That that's, like, the most risk that you run.
416
00:34:47.720 --> 00:34:50.860
So, you know, I I find it
417
00:34:51.545 --> 00:34:52.605
very risk minimized
418
00:34:52.985 --> 00:34:58.045
and, you know, and it's different, you know. There's obviously pros and cons to running Lightning Nodes,
419
00:34:58.420 --> 00:35:03.240
and I know q and a asked, like, 30 minutes ago about when Lightning on Ronin.
420
00:35:03.540 --> 00:35:04.520
He knows better.
421
00:35:05.540 --> 00:35:06.920
You should've made him wait.
422
00:35:08.585 --> 00:35:16.285
No. I saw it, and it just made me think. So but, yeah, I, I I think we're definitely all in those steps. We wanna provide any availability.
423
00:35:16.744 --> 00:35:22.750
Like, for anyone to be able to run this stuff, we want it for everybody, whether that's do it yourself and you buy your own hardware,
424
00:35:23.050 --> 00:35:35.960
whether you wanna buy, like, a full, like, the full fucking node and ready for it to be just plugged in, we wanna provide that. We want it to be easy to access for you to just have that privacy oriented node that's just gonna work. And,
425
00:35:36.660 --> 00:35:38.280
I think I think we're we're
426
00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:42.200
almost there. You know? I'm not Southside, New York represent?
427
00:35:43.684 --> 00:35:49.704
Alright. So I wanna I wanna, answer a question. Some person said, Embassy is nice. It is all over tour.
428
00:35:50.085 --> 00:35:56.359
I just want I want everybody to be aware. If you're not aware, Samurai Dojo, which, we ship in Ronin Dojo.
429
00:35:56.900 --> 00:35:59.474
It uses Tor by default, so all communications
430
00:35:59.775 --> 00:36:01.955
in the network are go through Tor.
431
00:36:02.895 --> 00:36:07.214
And if and if you have problems with your ISP blocking you, you can set up,
432
00:36:07.930 --> 00:36:12.349
toll bridges. So you can get around all that. Great. I mean, you know,
433
00:36:12.650 --> 00:36:14.349
embassy has a very strong community.
434
00:36:14.810 --> 00:36:18.145
They they share that, quality with the samurai guys.
435
00:36:18.845 --> 00:36:23.025
We I am friends with the start 9 guys at over at Embassy.
436
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.940
They are gonna be on the show sometime soon.
437
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.580
So don't worry, freaks. That will happen.
438
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.500
To be perfectly clear though,
439
00:36:31.055 --> 00:36:35.395
tour only is not an Embassy only feature. Pretty much every single full node stack,
440
00:36:35.855 --> 00:36:38.915
every single popular full node stack, whether that's Ronin Dojo,
441
00:36:39.730 --> 00:36:40.869
whether that's Embassy,
442
00:36:41.410 --> 00:36:46.309
whether that's Raspberry Blitz, whether that's MyNode, whether that's Umbrel, whether that's Noddle,
443
00:36:47.115 --> 00:36:50.575
they all pretty much default to Tor now, which is great to see.
444
00:36:51.435 --> 00:36:54.175
It is kind of a bit of an issue if Tor reliability
445
00:36:54.715 --> 00:36:55.215
is
446
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.820
important, which it is when you're running a lightning node,
447
00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:02.500
and we've seen these Torv three reliability attacks.
448
00:37:03.434 --> 00:37:09.295
Zelco, I did kind of set you up there in terms of I don't think that lightning is ready for
449
00:37:09.595 --> 00:37:12.590
users in adversarial environments such as Latin America.
450
00:37:14.890 --> 00:37:15.390
I
451
00:37:16.490 --> 00:37:17.390
to be clear,
452
00:37:18.490 --> 00:37:24.205
Whirlpool, if you are using Whirlpool, which is Samura's CoinJoin implementation, which I think we're about to dive into,
453
00:37:25.625 --> 00:37:29.405
if you are using that, it is connected to the Internet at the time of usage.
454
00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:33.440
So you are exposing your keys to the Internet, so you do have some
455
00:37:34.539 --> 00:37:38.000
risk. Your funds are at some risk, but strictly speaking,
456
00:37:39.345 --> 00:37:40.165
in practice,
457
00:37:40.785 --> 00:37:44.725
it is significantly less risk than if you're running a lightning hot wallet,
458
00:37:46.065 --> 00:37:47.205
which which require,
459
00:37:47.710 --> 00:37:50.530
basically, to keep your funds secure requires either,
460
00:37:51.310 --> 00:37:52.849
your Internet to stay on
461
00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:56.369
in its entirety or you have a separate device
462
00:37:56.695 --> 00:38:01.915
called the watch tower that has its Internet on its entirety that's watching your channels for you,
463
00:38:02.215 --> 00:38:06.760
to protect you from any kind of malicious actors. So it's strictly superior in that regard.
464
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:09.720
Myself personally, Zelco personally,
465
00:38:10.020 --> 00:38:11.160
Likewell personally
466
00:38:11.595 --> 00:38:18.174
have put substantial funds into Whirlpool. I mean, I I know myself. I put substantial funds into Lightning because I'm just an idiot.
467
00:38:19.115 --> 00:38:19.615
And
468
00:38:20.740 --> 00:38:23.000
What do you mean? We we haven't had any loss.
469
00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:28.680
We haven't had any loss. Right? I haven't had any loss from Lightning, and I haven't had any loss from Whirlpool.
470
00:38:29.195 --> 00:38:30.975
So it is what it is in that regard.
471
00:38:31.835 --> 00:38:32.895
Yeah. I mean,
472
00:38:34.875 --> 00:38:41.230
yeah. I mean I mean, like, losing funds is something different. And I'm sure if we were to pull the entire
473
00:38:41.849 --> 00:38:44.270
Lightning community, I'm sure people have have
474
00:38:44.725 --> 00:38:49.705
lost something of some sort, whether they could recover or not. I mean, our channel's going down or whatever.
475
00:38:50.645 --> 00:38:56.570
It Well, the majority of we talk all about this. We talk all about funds lost. Right? And the majority of funds I've lost
476
00:38:57.110 --> 00:38:58.250
have been in fees,
477
00:38:59.110 --> 00:39:00.355
that I've had to pay.
478
00:39:00.994 --> 00:39:04.375
And so so the so with Lightning, I had to learn
479
00:39:05.875 --> 00:39:08.615
that really you wanna have few channels that are large.
480
00:39:09.660 --> 00:39:10.880
Few realize this.
481
00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.220
And,
482
00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:21.195
and and you don't wanna have a lot of small channels, especially when fees rise. Even though I expected fees to rise, it still caught me off guard because I need to learn the hard way to be quite honest.
483
00:39:21.975 --> 00:39:24.555
And I think it's important that people do learn by
484
00:39:27.100 --> 00:39:28.080
learn by doing.
485
00:39:28.940 --> 00:39:31.120
And then, I mean, on the CoinJoint side,
486
00:39:31.660 --> 00:39:32.160
like,
487
00:39:32.620 --> 00:39:37.445
me and the freaks together spent a lot of money on wasabi fees,
488
00:39:38.865 --> 00:39:45.819
and then we had to put them through Whirlpool afterwards. How dare you? So we had to I mean, look look, I
489
00:39:46.220 --> 00:39:49.119
You gotta work. I've repented to the Whirlpool guy.
490
00:39:50.380 --> 00:39:52.480
To be clear, Wasabi was,
491
00:39:54.065 --> 00:39:57.685
in the beginning, more stable even if it was a poor implementation
492
00:39:57.985 --> 00:40:00.405
of corn join. The freaks have heard,
493
00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:02.360
many explanations
494
00:40:04.420 --> 00:40:06.520
of the the the nuances
495
00:40:06.820 --> 00:40:10.119
of of the the the 2 different CoinJoin implementations.
496
00:40:10.505 --> 00:40:12.505
I don't really wanna dig into that. I think,
497
00:40:13.705 --> 00:40:15.965
I think the Wasabi guys have kind of admitted,
498
00:40:17.465 --> 00:40:17.965
that,
499
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:23.100
their implementation is subpar because they're working on a radically new different implementation,
500
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.965
that has, like, a 14 month expectation to come out.
501
00:40:28.525 --> 00:40:30.465
So I'd rather focus on
502
00:40:31.245 --> 00:40:33.265
what makes the Whirlpool implementation
503
00:40:34.365 --> 00:40:36.225
of of of ZeroLink,
504
00:40:37.290 --> 00:40:37.790
so
505
00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:40.670
effective
506
00:40:41.050 --> 00:40:45.950
effective and why you think like, let's be honest. Both of you guys have devoted significant
507
00:40:52.035 --> 00:40:52.535
stack.
508
00:40:53.980 --> 00:41:05.555
You know, if you use Samura Wallet, you should use it with your own node. The most performant way to use it with your own node is to use Ronin Dojo. That's what you guys are the lead maintainers of. You're basically wedded yourself to this stack.
509
00:41:06.095 --> 00:41:11.635
You've decided that it is worth your time and energy to focus on improving this stack.
510
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.940
Why is that the case? Why why why should why should people care? Why should people,
511
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:19.059
you know
512
00:41:20.319 --> 00:41:22.579
why why should people use what you're building?
513
00:41:23.105 --> 00:41:26.005
Okay. I'll start, and then, like, well, you can you can
514
00:41:26.305 --> 00:41:28.005
pick me up. So,
515
00:41:28.545 --> 00:41:30.405
I mean, 1st and foremost, right, like,
516
00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:33.240
I'm gonna go back go back in time because,
517
00:41:33.859 --> 00:41:35.400
you know, when this all started,
518
00:41:35.780 --> 00:41:39.079
when when we when I started, me and s 2, Uruguay,
519
00:41:39.495 --> 00:41:44.795
when we started, you know, running it, it was just a bunch of, like, guides and minor scripts.
520
00:41:45.335 --> 00:41:46.715
But we added
521
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:52.540
a block explorer ourselves. We added, you know, Whirlpool to our stack ourselves.
522
00:41:53.240 --> 00:41:56.460
We added in, you know, Electrum Rust Server ourselves.
523
00:41:57.045 --> 00:41:59.704
And then it it's just it was funny to see the development
524
00:42:00.085 --> 00:42:02.585
of Dojo. Right? Like, the vanilla upstream
525
00:42:03.204 --> 00:42:05.065
that we used. Right? Because now
526
00:42:05.550 --> 00:42:08.770
everybody who just uses Vanilla Dojo, right,
527
00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:12.450
they get the Explorer, they get Whirlpool, they get
528
00:42:13.505 --> 00:42:15.765
an indexer, right, the samurai indexer.
529
00:42:17.505 --> 00:42:20.805
You know, so it it was just kinda funny to see all that because, you know,
530
00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.150
we had a good thumb on the on the community.
531
00:42:23.609 --> 00:42:24.349
And so
532
00:42:25.130 --> 00:42:27.630
when it comes down to that, right, like, we we understand
533
00:42:28.490 --> 00:42:32.984
what normal users want. We're not just some developers up in the ivory tower that,
534
00:42:33.365 --> 00:42:42.210
you know, have no thumb on the community. Right? Like, we understand. Of course, we always get some people that say they want lightning, but I'll say that the majority I would say
535
00:42:42.750 --> 00:42:46.290
the the amount of people that have asked us to implement lightning is,
536
00:42:47.035 --> 00:42:51.215
like, near 0. Like, it's it's a non zero number, but it's it's definitely
537
00:42:51.835 --> 00:42:52.575
very low.
538
00:42:53.035 --> 00:42:53.535
And
539
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.099
and that's why we focus on what we focus on. You know, the stack is so strong, you know,
540
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:06.885
particularly Whirlpool. Right? If you're running obviously, like, running your own node. I was telling my wife about this earlier.
541
00:43:07.265 --> 00:43:10.725
If you're not running your own node and your wallet's not backed by your own node,
542
00:43:11.585 --> 00:43:12.325
excuse me,
543
00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:19.630
that means that your wallet is running off someone else's node. Obviously, we know in Samura's case, like, they dedicate one specific,
544
00:43:20.285 --> 00:43:21.105
you know, server
545
00:43:21.565 --> 00:43:23.505
to their to their users. Right?
546
00:43:23.805 --> 00:43:25.245
But, you know, whether it's,
547
00:43:25.645 --> 00:43:26.145
SPV
548
00:43:26.685 --> 00:43:34.000
or whether it's, you know, some other some other form of, like, someone's running a node, and you're trusting those people with your information.
549
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:35.119
So,
550
00:43:36.125 --> 00:43:43.665
the Dojo part is just is like the actual node part is, like, more common sense. Right? That's that's how you best control your information.
551
00:43:44.790 --> 00:43:47.770
The second thing is Whirlpool. Having that running consistently,
552
00:43:48.550 --> 00:43:52.250
and I love explaining this to new users. Not only does Whirlpool,
553
00:43:53.245 --> 00:43:55.105
you know, you can put in as many
554
00:43:55.725 --> 00:43:59.345
UTXOs as you want, right, and break that up as much as you want.
555
00:44:01.130 --> 00:44:03.230
So those fees, like, that fee per,
556
00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:06.830
TX 0. Right? You pay, the fee to samurai,
557
00:44:07.450 --> 00:44:12.455
the, the pool fee. You pay that one time on your TX 0. Right? It's not based on,
558
00:44:12.915 --> 00:44:31.725
you know, the amount going in or how many UTXOs. It's based on that one time pool fee. So your fees can get super low based on the amount that you're you're putting in. So if you're smart, you can calculate it out. You know, Shout out to q and a who has a whirlpool stat error whirlpool calculator website.
559
00:44:32.665 --> 00:44:40.090
But you can calculate it out, and based on the mining pools at the the mining fees at the time and how much, the mining the
560
00:44:40.390 --> 00:44:44.955
liquidity pool fee is. You know, you can you can substantially bring that down.
561
00:44:45.255 --> 00:44:57.859
And then it's it to me, it's worth it because we're doing 2 things. We're paying for privacy. We're paying for service, right, to break all those deterministic links. And I'm also helping support the developers to continue to do what they do
562
00:44:58.195 --> 00:45:00.935
and not ask for handouts, not get VC,
563
00:45:02.515 --> 00:45:09.380
you know, VC funding and then have somebody to answer to. You know, they they gotta do what they want because they have a business model.
564
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:10.420
So,
565
00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:17.845
you know, that whirlpool is is super important right there, but then having it running 247 in the background,
566
00:45:18.224 --> 00:45:22.484
you know, your anonymity set, even if you're not even if there's no
567
00:45:22.865 --> 00:45:25.605
UTXO spinning, but you leave them in post mix,
568
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:27.980
you're continuing to add
569
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:31.980
to that you're you're continuing to get forward looking anonymity.
570
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:33.099
So
571
00:45:33.595 --> 00:45:38.414
people looking back at it, they don't know who's UTXOs or whose, and it continues to grow,
572
00:45:38.795 --> 00:45:40.335
you know, as more and more people,
573
00:45:40.720 --> 00:45:48.565
you know, continue to be selected into the pool. So you don't need to get picked. You know, a lot of people misunderstand that fact. You don't need to actually get
574
00:45:48.885 --> 00:45:56.345
25 mixes, or you don't need to get 10 mixes. Like, you could get 3 and just leave it in there, and then you continue to get better anonymity.
575
00:45:56.849 --> 00:45:57.829
If I'm some schmuck
576
00:45:58.290 --> 00:46:00.770
if I'm some schmuck and I join join
577
00:46:01.650 --> 00:46:03.589
oh, I'm hearing a little bit echo echo.
578
00:46:03.970 --> 00:46:05.270
I hear you so echo.
579
00:46:07.455 --> 00:46:09.235
If I'm some schmuck and I join,
580
00:46:10.255 --> 00:46:10.735
samurai
581
00:46:11.055 --> 00:46:18.859
if I I join Whirlpool and I do a single I do a single mix, and then I just turn off my phone, and I just never do a mix again.
582
00:46:19.319 --> 00:46:22.859
Those people you do the mix with, those 4 other UTXOs,
583
00:46:23.240 --> 00:46:24.619
those 4 other participants,
584
00:46:25.625 --> 00:46:37.070
of your transaction, if they go and do a bunch of mixes, that's what people don't realize, if they go and do a bunch of mixes, all their coin join rounds are connected to your coin join round. So your potential,
585
00:46:38.090 --> 00:46:40.590
outputs of of which ones could be you
586
00:46:41.050 --> 00:46:43.630
go grows with the amount of times
587
00:46:43.930 --> 00:46:44.670
your participants
588
00:46:45.565 --> 00:46:55.105
end up reentering coinjoin rounds, and their participants reenter coinjoin rounds. So they join a new round, and that round has 4 new people, and those 4 new people go and join new rounds.
589
00:46:55.470 --> 00:46:58.290
You you go along that tree along with them.
590
00:46:58.830 --> 00:47:02.210
And that's why it's super important that the way ZeroLink is implemented
591
00:47:02.915 --> 00:47:08.695
in in Samurais is implemented in a wholly different way than it's implemented in Wasabi,
592
00:47:09.315 --> 00:47:10.215
where you have
593
00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:18.390
these remixers are re are are it's enforced by the protocol. The coordinator is enforcing it. So it doesn't it doesn't matter.
594
00:47:19.015 --> 00:47:23.035
Yes. Obviously, it it matters in that if we had no one remixing,
595
00:47:23.495 --> 00:47:24.635
we'd all be fucked.
596
00:47:25.015 --> 00:47:27.435
So, like, you should you you should go and remix.
597
00:47:27.740 --> 00:47:34.079
Like, you should do your part and remix all the time, which is what me and Zelco and Mike Lowe do. But
598
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:35.520
if you don't,
599
00:47:36.125 --> 00:47:38.705
you're getting passive privacy improvement
600
00:47:39.085 --> 00:47:41.105
because other people are. Right?
601
00:47:41.725 --> 00:47:44.705
Yep. I like the way you worded that, passive privacy improvement.
602
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:49.460
I mean, you don't need to and and I think that's probably the best way. I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that for the future.
603
00:47:49.920 --> 00:48:00.885
That's the best way to put it because you really are just, like, sitting there, and you don't need to be in an active mix. And it it goes into one of the ways that I kinda I worked with q and a on one of his guides on, like,
604
00:48:01.265 --> 00:48:12.545
hey. How do we move our our wallet to cold storage? Or I I wanna move my stuff. And so because we get that a lot. You know? I wanna mix 3 times, and then I wanna send my stuff to cold storage or my hardware wallet.
605
00:48:13.025 --> 00:48:13.525
You
606
00:48:13.825 --> 00:48:17.684
know? But one of the best things to do is just take your wallet offline.
607
00:48:18.385 --> 00:48:25.510
Right? Your seeds are as secure as you let them be, and, yeah, it's not cold storage. It was touched by the Internet.
608
00:48:25.890 --> 00:48:29.670
Yeah. It was touched by the Internet, and that's that's fine. Right? But,
609
00:48:30.035 --> 00:48:37.255
you know, it's you took it offline. You you have to you have to stop the Whirlpool CLI, you know, reset that.
610
00:48:37.580 --> 00:48:46.160
But once you do that, your wallet's, like, no longer on the Internet. Right? So you've minimized the risk, the exposure, but all of your coins
611
00:48:46.605 --> 00:48:49.265
are still in that that equal output.
612
00:48:49.565 --> 00:48:51.905
So I will always disagree with you on this sellco.
613
00:48:52.205 --> 00:48:53.744
Oh, man. Let's do it.
614
00:48:54.319 --> 00:49:01.140
I always so so I agree that if if if you if the issue is an active external attacker,
615
00:49:04.245 --> 00:49:05.385
then then,
616
00:49:05.765 --> 00:49:06.265
obviously,
617
00:49:07.045 --> 00:49:11.065
you don't have that risk once you pull it offline. So it was online previously,
618
00:49:11.990 --> 00:49:19.049
and and then you pull it offline. At least you know if an active attacker decides he wants to attack you, he has to come into wherever you're holding
619
00:49:19.355 --> 00:49:22.415
your private keys and and take it because there's they're not online.
620
00:49:24.075 --> 00:49:26.155
The the the issue is more of
621
00:49:26.875 --> 00:49:28.495
and I guess, like,
622
00:49:29.430 --> 00:49:31.270
the new fudders are calling it,
623
00:49:32.230 --> 00:49:33.690
a retirement attack.
624
00:49:34.150 --> 00:49:38.090
But it it's it's a concern that it's existed for a long fucking time.
625
00:49:38.664 --> 00:49:40.765
And and the concern really is
626
00:49:41.464 --> 00:49:44.684
is someone let's say someone figured out a way to compromise
627
00:49:44.984 --> 00:49:46.605
online samurai keys.
628
00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:52.760
They've already compromised you and they wait. They wait for those funds to increase.
629
00:49:53.220 --> 00:49:54.600
Right? And maybe individuals
630
00:49:55.675 --> 00:50:08.860
will remove and add and and they'll end up at worse, but but the the attacker in general is looking at a larger and larger base of of funds they can attack. And at some point in the future, they sweep them all even if you're offline.
631
00:50:10.040 --> 00:50:13.404
That attack, you're still susceptible to. So in general,
632
00:50:14.184 --> 00:50:15.724
you're talking basically
633
00:50:16.265 --> 00:50:17.325
between a privacy
634
00:50:17.944 --> 00:50:18.444
versus
635
00:50:19.144 --> 00:50:24.350
security trade off, which is fine, but it's it's a trade off that exists and people should be aware of,
636
00:50:25.850 --> 00:50:29.950
and it's mostly theoretical to be clear. We haven't had a single person,
637
00:50:31.434 --> 00:50:37.135
lose money on a reputable mobile wallet, period, let alone Samurais. But including Samurais,
638
00:50:37.570 --> 00:50:40.950
we have not had a single person lose money on a reputable wallet.
639
00:50:41.250 --> 00:50:47.955
And there's a lot of irreputable wallets to be fucking clear. Like, if you type in Bitcoin wallet into Google Play Store
640
00:50:48.335 --> 00:50:50.755
or Apple iPhone store or whatever,
641
00:50:51.135 --> 00:50:55.635
there's a lot of shitty fucking wallets that you've never heard of before, and they're mostly scams.
642
00:50:56.430 --> 00:50:59.089
But any reputable wallet, we have not had
643
00:50:59.470 --> 00:51:00.530
any kind of,
644
00:51:01.390 --> 00:51:03.089
you know, remote attack.
645
00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:05.410
But theoretically, you could.
646
00:51:05.725 --> 00:51:10.545
So best practice is to just send it off after you after you do CoinJoin.
647
00:51:11.005 --> 00:51:13.185
And if you and and and and
648
00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:21.880
in general, the practice should be, you leave it in Whirlpool for a while because the remixes are free, and you're adding a bunch of entropy because,
649
00:51:22.555 --> 00:51:25.455
you know, not only are other people adding to your
650
00:51:25.995 --> 00:51:35.510
anonymity set because they're coin joining again, but you're also adding to everyone's anonymity set because you're coin joining again. So you do that for a bit. And then the cool thing about
651
00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:37.670
Samurais is when you send out,
652
00:51:38.210 --> 00:51:43.205
you either send out as a fake 2 person coin joint or a real multi person coin joint.
653
00:51:43.505 --> 00:51:46.245
So you're either the fake one is called Stonewall,
654
00:51:46.640 --> 00:51:51.780
and the real one is called Stonewall times 2 because you have at least 2 people. Easy to remember.
655
00:51:53.655 --> 00:52:00.795
So it doesn't kill the anonymity set of everyone else. Right? Like, when you when you talk about Wasabi, if you send out from Wasabi in that situation,
656
00:52:01.670 --> 00:52:09.210
you're basically proving, okay, any UTXOs that send out from Wasabi at this point are controlled by the same person. But you send out from Samurai and
657
00:52:09.575 --> 00:52:12.475
you don't you don't know. It could be 2 people. It could be 3 people.
658
00:52:13.495 --> 00:52:13.995
Ideally,
659
00:52:14.455 --> 00:52:17.755
we could end up in a situation where you can use Soroban to do, like,
660
00:52:18.369 --> 00:52:21.589
a 5 person Stonewall times 5 or something,
661
00:52:22.529 --> 00:52:26.869
where, like, 5 people leave. Like, that that's the future they're moving towards. Right?
662
00:52:27.964 --> 00:52:36.865
And and and and we could have simulated fake 5 person coin joins as well. Like, you have real 5 person coin joins and you have fake 5 person coin. Like, you can do that shit.
663
00:52:38.910 --> 00:52:44.290
Yeah. So, I mean, that that's the package we want to be in. That's the situation we wanna be in. I don't think we should,
664
00:52:47.225 --> 00:52:59.090
yeah, I I I I just I think the majority of funds that people hold for long term should be on keys that have never touched the Internet, period. And I'm a hardliner on that, and that it is what it is.
665
00:52:59.550 --> 00:53:00.050
Okay.
666
00:53:00.350 --> 00:53:01.730
So, I mean, I'm
667
00:53:02.350 --> 00:53:06.405
I'm fine with that. Right? I'm fine with the idea of having
668
00:53:07.105 --> 00:53:07.605
a,
669
00:53:09.425 --> 00:53:10.085
a savings.
670
00:53:10.625 --> 00:53:11.125
Right?
671
00:53:11.610 --> 00:53:14.590
Savings versus a, you know, a spending.
672
00:53:15.930 --> 00:53:27.205
I don't my my only issue and, like, I'm not I don't disagree with pretty much anything that you said. There's obviously threat models to everything. And that and that was one of the one of the points that we bring up in his article
673
00:53:27.620 --> 00:53:34.360
is that it is a threat model. Right? It's a warm wallet, not a fucking cold storage. Once you take it off the end, it doesn't make it cold.
674
00:53:36.435 --> 00:53:38.775
You know? But at the same time,
675
00:53:39.795 --> 00:53:42.615
I don't think that a majority of people,
676
00:53:43.235 --> 00:53:48.520
and I I don't wanna go into your multisig rabbit hole, but I don't think that
677
00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:55.305
I don't think that the average user or even a mid like, I'll venture to stay the majority of the freaks,
678
00:53:55.765 --> 00:53:57.065
that are consistent listeners
679
00:53:58.165 --> 00:53:58.665
appropriately
680
00:53:59.285 --> 00:54:01.390
take those actions and, like, appropriately
681
00:54:01.930 --> 00:54:03.230
know how to use
682
00:54:03.770 --> 00:54:12.994
this isn't all of them. Just saying that they're I would say that not everyone knows how to do it the right way, and they might think that they have cold storage where they never touch the Internet,
683
00:54:13.615 --> 00:54:14.115
never,
684
00:54:14.654 --> 00:54:19.420
you know, didn't do any of the any of the things that would have risked their their security,
685
00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:26.140
you know, I don't think that majority of people know how to do that because it's not easy. It's not it's not like a
686
00:54:26.725 --> 00:54:27.465
super simple,
687
00:54:28.085 --> 00:54:36.690
you know, process. And one small thing can can screw it up, and then they end up being in the same boat of having the same, whether it's minimal risk or not,
688
00:54:37.950 --> 00:54:40.049
they're having the same risk. So,
689
00:54:41.230 --> 00:54:50.505
and then you go to the same the the idea, right, of what do you do with your coins when you're ready to spend. And it goes back to that same concept that I just said where
690
00:54:50.964 --> 00:54:55.920
I think that I've seen so many users that vary in experience and vary in technical skills,
691
00:54:56.220 --> 00:54:56.720
where
692
00:54:57.020 --> 00:54:59.040
some people are, like, super
693
00:54:59.500 --> 00:55:07.994
type a, and they label every single UTXO. They're like, hey. I have a whole process. When I send it to my holder hardware wallet, I label every single one.
694
00:55:08.295 --> 00:55:12.555
I know which one is is which, and I and I'll never screw this up and whatever.
695
00:55:12.980 --> 00:55:21.240
And then you go, hey, in 10 years, you plan on spending this. In 10 years, are you going to not screw this up? You know, because
696
00:55:21.915 --> 00:55:24.335
whether it's an attacker or whether it's the government,
697
00:55:25.355 --> 00:55:38.319
either way, right, you you need to be careful so that you don't do this the wrong way. You do it the wrong way, there's This is what I get angry at this is where I get angry at, like, the mister Havels of the world who are, like, coin controls all you need.
698
00:55:38.735 --> 00:55:43.475
Because because CoinJoin's a perfect example of you need the ability to reset.
699
00:55:43.775 --> 00:55:51.870
I forgot. I don't know what the label is for this UTXO. I have no idea where this is from. Let me put this into Whirlpool, and then I'll deal with it as a post mix.
700
00:55:53.050 --> 00:56:13.040
Yep. And I think that would be the that's obviously the best way. Right? Is it, like, if you're not sure or if there's coins that you need to put back together in order to spend an x amount, then yeah. So it should go back through Whirlpool. You really shouldn't be playing that game unless they're already in a post mix wallet. And, and to be clear to be clear,
701
00:56:13.340 --> 00:56:14.400
I have more
702
00:56:15.454 --> 00:56:17.234
fucking coin in Whirlpool
703
00:56:17.775 --> 00:56:19.474
than the majority of people
704
00:56:19.935 --> 00:56:20.595
who would
705
00:56:21.055 --> 00:56:25.300
that that would say, like, oh, Matt. Like, you're you're being you're overstating the
706
00:56:25.600 --> 00:56:26.480
risks. Like, are you
707
00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:52.125
I I I understand it's a calculated risk, and it is what it is. You need we if for Bitcoin privacy to use Bitcoin privately, you need an interactive wallet. You need a wallet that's connected to the Internet. We have no Hey, Matt. Matt, I'll never forget one time I'll never forget one time he was telling me when we one of the times when we first met, he was telling me about Whirlpool, and he was saying, miss now mix now and mix often.
708
00:56:52.745 --> 00:56:54.365
Exactly. Because it's very important.
709
00:56:54.745 --> 00:56:59.910
Wait. Like, woah. Did did I orange pill you on, Whirlpool? Am I the one who got you in?
710
00:57:00.289 --> 00:57:02.549
I think so. I think you did.
711
00:57:03.535 --> 00:57:04.515
There you go, Tello.
712
00:57:05.694 --> 00:57:07.315
Full circle. Thanks, Matt.
713
00:57:08.414 --> 00:57:15.930
That's so funny. You better think Matt because that's how I kinda went and told you. I wouldn't have fucking shut up in the New York Bitcoin community. That's for sure.
714
00:57:17.110 --> 00:57:23.535
That's a funny story. Like like was like was first post, I can't forget, but we'll we'll get to that in a second.
715
00:57:23.835 --> 00:57:31.140
Yeah. I I mean, I I think you're hitting it, man. Like, you have to you have to mix. And if you're really not sure, just mix it again. You know? And,
716
00:57:31.680 --> 00:57:35.539
like, yeah. Do you have to pay a fee? Sure. But is it worth it? A 100%.
717
00:57:35.839 --> 00:57:39.460
Like I mean, maybe it's not for you. If it's not for you, then,
718
00:57:40.225 --> 00:57:48.885
you know, I don't know, ruin your privacy. But, you know, if it's worth it for you, there's there's different options, you know, whether you take your wallet offline
719
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:55.460
and have it as a warm I'm doing quotations that you can't see, a warm wallet, whether you send it to a cold storage,
720
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:03.115
you know, whether you send it to cold storage, whether you send it to a hardware wallet that, you know, you're trusting even though, I don't know, you were
721
00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:05.580
silly and you plugged it into your computer.
722
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:12.915
I don't know. What whatever works for you. If you're not sure and you're not confident in your spend, put put it back to
723
00:58:14.115 --> 00:58:23.930
that's funny. Put it back to Well, summarize just go through Whirlpool. You know? Oh, that's why you're doing so much. Money. I get no just to be clear, I get your own money back
724
00:58:24.310 --> 00:58:33.355
for shit. Getting paid for any of this fucking shit. I wish. We're doing it wrong. We're doing it wrong, boys. We're doing it wrong. Why are we getting paid? Paid for every time I showed Whirlpool.
725
00:58:34.135 --> 00:58:34.955
Just a samurai.
726
00:58:35.750 --> 00:58:38.809
Write down your c. Make a nice password phrase
727
00:58:40.790 --> 00:58:41.849
instead of Sentinel.
728
00:58:42.230 --> 00:58:44.569
And that's all you have to do, and then just, you know,
729
00:58:45.015 --> 00:58:49.675
get rid of your wallet. Just let let Sentinel do its thing. That's all you have to do.
730
00:58:51.095 --> 00:58:53.355
Yeah. There there is gonna be different,
731
00:58:54.190 --> 00:59:03.010
tools coming out from what I understand. Again, this is all rumor. Don't fucking hold me to it because I'm not a samurai developer. But from what I hear, there's gonna be a lot more,
732
00:59:03.894 --> 00:59:05.674
cold storage slash different
733
00:59:06.135 --> 00:59:07.914
ways to send your coins out.
734
00:59:08.295 --> 00:59:08.795
And
735
00:59:09.654 --> 00:59:14.360
and then Sentinel is gonna have the ability to sign transactions offline,
736
00:59:14.900 --> 00:59:16.040
being able to send,
737
00:59:16.980 --> 00:59:17.640
you know,
738
00:59:17.940 --> 00:59:21.880
doing doing all the things that you need. So you can actually just set up a cold storage
739
00:59:22.705 --> 00:59:24.805
wallet that never touches the Internet
740
00:59:25.585 --> 00:59:38.930
and utilize that as your cold storage, but it has all the post mix tools and everything that you need, And Sentinel can just sign and broadcast it, which well, I guess it wouldn't sign it, but your device would sign it and Sentinel could broadcast it.
741
00:59:39.955 --> 00:59:43.735
They're they're coming up with that now, and that's to me, that's super awesome.
742
00:59:45.155 --> 00:59:51.110
So it's it's all on the radar. There's a lot of things that come out. Zilko, this is what's super frustrating. Right? It's because
743
00:59:51.650 --> 00:59:53.110
it's because I have
744
00:59:53.570 --> 00:59:55.910
the samurai guys are coming at me
745
00:59:57.734 --> 00:59:59.595
for being too low time preference,
746
00:59:59.895 --> 01:00:03.355
and then I have the low time preference guys are coming at me for samurai.
747
01:00:03.655 --> 01:00:04.555
And really,
748
01:00:05.680 --> 01:00:06.180
few,
749
01:00:07.680 --> 01:00:08.180
realize
750
01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:12.020
very low time preference samurai
751
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:14.855
goal that I have is that I think,
752
01:00:17.155 --> 01:00:18.535
they're building samurai
753
01:00:18.915 --> 01:00:22.455
the samurai team is building the foundation of Bitcoin privacy
754
01:00:22.790 --> 01:00:25.770
in an open source way, a free and open source way,
755
01:00:27.270 --> 01:00:31.770
and you need this base. You need the base. You need the okay. We have
756
01:00:32.155 --> 01:00:32.895
no deterministic
757
01:00:33.195 --> 01:00:33.695
links
758
01:00:33.995 --> 01:00:38.895
in a coordinated coin join round, and then it either goes out through a real multiparty
759
01:00:39.435 --> 01:00:48.470
coin join or it goes out through a fake multi party coin join, and we default to fake multi party coin join. Okay. And we got that. And then on the front side, you go, okay.
760
01:00:48.930 --> 01:00:58.865
Let's change the pool sizes. Let's let's scale the pool sizes as as the amount happens, and then let's let's change it so that we can have multiparty UTXOs
761
01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:00.900
so that we can have,
762
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.700
we can have individuals come in. We can have 5 or 6 people
763
01:01:08.935 --> 01:01:13.035
come in. They come in. Then on the way out okay. Then on the way out, we could pay join,
764
01:01:13.575 --> 01:01:38.220
you in in this case, in Sam Roth stowaway. We can do maybe we can do, like, 7 or 8 person coin joins, non coordinated coin joins on the way out. We can do fake 7 person coin joins. Like, you can do all these different things. Right? And it's about building this base. You have to build if you if you don't build from a solid foundation, then it's all a waste. If you if you don't build from a solid foundation, then what you have is a year and a half of us trying to increase Wasabi adoption,
765
01:01:38.600 --> 01:01:39.740
and then them deciding
766
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:49.335
that we're gonna have to wait another year and a half for Wasabi 2 point o, and it's gonna be a completely different an anonymity set. Right? So you wanna build from this strong base.
767
01:01:50.990 --> 01:01:51.490
Yes?
768
01:01:51.950 --> 01:01:58.025
Matt, let me add to that. Okay. So Samura is building a foundation for privacy. And then it's just one all you freaks know that
769
01:01:58.505 --> 01:02:07.005
Sunrise license is open source, fully open source. You guys Yeah. Let's talk about this. Okay. Do do whatever you want with it. Don't worry about it. No one's gonna bite you.
770
01:02:07.830 --> 01:02:08.890
Woah. Hold on.
771
01:02:09.190 --> 01:02:11.690
Let's talk about it. You should we switch Exactly.
772
01:02:12.870 --> 01:02:13.690
Yeah. So
773
01:02:14.755 --> 01:02:20.134
they're not exact Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. So let me let me preface this, Zelko. Let me preface this. So right right now,
774
01:02:21.634 --> 01:02:23.815
open source means a lot of different things,
775
01:02:24.270 --> 01:02:30.130
a lot of different p I. So this is the 2nd main topic we wanna talk about. We wanna talk about Bitcoin privacy. We wanna talk about open source licenses.
776
01:02:30.990 --> 01:02:38.515
There's many different licenses you can choose when you go open source, and they vary from being able to just view the source, source viewable,
777
01:02:38.815 --> 01:02:41.555
to being able to do whatever you want with the code.
778
01:02:42.810 --> 01:02:46.910
And people argue all the time about what is open source and what isn't.
779
01:02:49.105 --> 01:02:56.164
So so you have those 2 thing. And so so you have on one extreme end, you have closed source where you can't see the code at all.
780
01:02:56.700 --> 01:03:02.160
Then you have source viewable where you can see the code, but you can't do anything with it. And then you have
781
01:03:02.859 --> 01:03:05.599
proper open source. You have free open source software
782
01:03:05.925 --> 01:03:12.505
where you're able to do whatever you want with the code, and no one can stop you. And you have all those different gradients in between.
783
01:03:12.805 --> 01:03:20.430
You have different projects in between. Ronin Dojo is on the far the far side of the free open source, where you can just
784
01:03:20.970 --> 01:03:22.830
do whatever you want with the code.
785
01:03:23.525 --> 01:03:30.345
Where do we stand here, boys? I know there's a lot of controversy here about the other full note Saks. Let's just fucking go go go into it. Alright.
786
01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:34.300
So, well, first off, like so we have the same license as,
787
01:03:34.700 --> 01:03:35.440
as samurai
788
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:36.320
AGPL,
789
01:03:37.579 --> 01:03:38.079
AGPLv3,
790
01:03:38.700 --> 01:03:41.435
but it's it's basically saying that it's,
791
01:03:42.135 --> 01:03:53.300
copy left. Instead of copy right, it's copy left, meaning that anyone that wants to use their code, they can do whatever they someone can fork and just make their own run-in Dojo, whatever they wanna call it.
792
01:03:53.600 --> 01:04:00.975
And but it has to remain open source. It has to remain they can charge people. They can do whatever, but it has to have the same licensing
793
01:04:01.435 --> 01:04:03.295
as we do. Otherwise, they're liable.
794
01:04:03.755 --> 01:04:10.579
So if they don't change their licensing, then then that service has to be free. Right? We saw this with, with myNode.
795
01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:13.140
K? So myNode tried to implement Whirlpool,
796
01:04:14.105 --> 01:04:15.885
which I helped with, but
797
01:04:16.265 --> 01:04:24.030
they wanted it to be a premium feature, and it couldn't be because they didn't have the same license that we did or that Whirlpool did.
798
01:04:24.730 --> 01:04:25.230
So,
799
01:04:25.770 --> 01:04:27.470
you know, the idea that,
800
01:04:28.170 --> 01:04:34.125
like, free open source software is that it's supposed to have that freedom and supposed to protect
801
01:04:34.445 --> 01:04:37.505
I mean, I guess it's everyone's opinion, but it's supposed to be able to protect,
802
01:04:37.885 --> 01:04:41.680
you know, that code to be able to get to as many people as possible.
803
01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:46.560
That's at least my interpretation. Right? So when you look at people that see competition,
804
01:04:47.674 --> 01:04:56.815
and instead of saying, like, okay. Cool. Competition, bring it on. Right? You get people that get butt hurt. I'm I'm not gonna name any names. I just know that it's your favorite
805
01:04:57.200 --> 01:04:57.859
your favorite,
806
01:04:58.240 --> 01:04:59.859
you know, hardware wallet, but
807
01:05:00.160 --> 01:05:00.660
they,
808
01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:04.820
you know, they they wanna get upset even though they utilized
809
01:05:05.275 --> 01:05:14.975
the same open source nature of all their hardware wallets in order to, you know, push their agenda, and that's fine. Like, that's the name of the game. Like, that that's exactly what
810
01:05:15.340 --> 01:05:20.880
free open source software is about. Right? It's supposed to be able to anybody can come in, fork it, use it,
811
01:05:22.140 --> 01:05:24.720
implement what they want, change what they want,
812
01:05:25.405 --> 01:05:34.099
take it, charge people if that's what they wanna do. You know? But at the end of the day, keeping it free and open source protects you from, you know, the big corporations
813
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:41.859
that, you know, want to charge it, but wanna keep it proprietary and wanna keep it closed source or copyrighted even though it's not their code.
814
01:05:42.165 --> 01:05:42.665
So,
815
01:05:43.285 --> 01:05:43.865
you know,
816
01:05:44.405 --> 01:05:55.349
it and I was talking to some of the samurai guys, and it's like, man, like, what we're seeing now with some of these creative or the, the common clause and n c NCND,
817
01:05:56.130 --> 01:06:00.734
I wasn't even super spun up on it, and I was like, wait. What do you mean it's not just open source?
818
01:06:01.035 --> 01:06:05.295
Like, it's not just, like, the the regular GNU or, you know,
819
01:06:05.994 --> 01:06:06.494
why
820
01:06:07.090 --> 01:06:11.910
why are any why is anyone getting upset right now? Or why is anyone trying to, like, overly protect
821
01:06:12.450 --> 01:06:19.964
what what they do? Like, this is what Bitcoin's about. Bitcoin is about being open source so that anybody can do whatever they want.
822
01:06:20.424 --> 01:06:24.665
They wanna make a PR? Cool. Do it. Like, let's see what you got. You know? Let's,
823
01:06:25.830 --> 01:06:26.330
let's,
824
01:06:26.950 --> 01:06:33.450
I don't know, change the game. If you wanna take it and, you know, you like some of the things that I do, like, if I like some of the things that,
825
01:06:33.845 --> 01:06:40.345
you know, Minot or Umbrell does and I wanna take it, but now I can't because you changed your your licensing,
826
01:06:41.125 --> 01:06:48.130
like, does that really make you unique? I don't like, I don't know. Does that make you confident in your ability to to provide a good product?
827
01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:49.410
I don't know.
828
01:06:50.190 --> 01:06:50.690
But
829
01:06:52.164 --> 01:06:56.984
I don't know. I think that we're we're going down this weird rabbit hole of
830
01:06:57.845 --> 01:07:05.430
like, I'm seeing a big shift in the Bitcoin community of people being too scared to just make it fully open source
831
01:07:05.809 --> 01:07:12.464
and fully available to everybody to do what they want and keeping that copy left, right, so that everybody
832
01:07:13.085 --> 01:07:13.585
can,
833
01:07:14.525 --> 01:07:16.065
can do what they want. Right?
834
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:21.280
That that's what Bitcoin's supposed to be about, at least in my opinion. I don't know. Like, well, you guys you
835
01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:24.655
go ahead. But before we bring like, well, into here,
836
01:07:25.375 --> 01:07:28.035
and I still hear an echo echo. So go.
837
01:07:29.295 --> 01:07:31.395
Okay. Thank you. If if
838
01:07:33.390 --> 01:07:39.810
and I I don't know why that that goes happening. If if I wanna play devil's advocate just for the freak's sake,
839
01:07:41.115 --> 01:07:44.335
I I think a very clear cut argument
840
01:07:44.635 --> 01:07:45.035
would be
841
01:07:46.235 --> 01:07:51.720
and and something they have heard in the past because we've had, Rodolfo on twice now,
842
01:07:53.540 --> 01:07:55.320
lead maintainer of Coldcard,
843
01:07:56.260 --> 01:07:57.960
cofounder of Coldcard Wallet.
844
01:07:59.155 --> 01:08:04.775
The main argument would be you have someone like Foundation Devices, in this case of Coldcard,
845
01:08:05.075 --> 01:08:06.615
who takes a direct copy
846
01:08:07.310 --> 01:08:08.450
of Coldcard
847
01:08:09.310 --> 01:08:12.690
and go and raises VC money based off of it.
848
01:08:13.470 --> 01:08:15.730
They take preorders based off of it.
849
01:08:16.145 --> 01:08:28.119
They advertise based off of being as secure as cold card. So, like, people have a respect for cold card and already, and and they advertise, like, like, oh, if you buy this hardware wallet, you'll know you'll get just as good security as cold card.
850
01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:35.855
And they have not released anything yet, and they have not released anything upstream even though, technically,
851
01:08:36.795 --> 01:08:40.975
they say they're complying with the license because no one has received product yet.
852
01:08:43.390 --> 01:08:48.850
So no one has received product yet. So when they receive product, we will release our upstream improvements.
853
01:08:49.235 --> 01:08:52.775
And in the meantime, they refactored everything. So to pretend like
854
01:08:53.635 --> 01:08:55.735
they didn't really take what they took.
855
01:08:56.435 --> 01:08:59.360
And you ended up in that situation, and I could see
856
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:03.040
I see the argument from Rodolfo where he says,
857
01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:20.250
you know, you have source viewable, so you're able to view the code. You're able to verify the code. You're able to not trust me and verify. But at the same time, like, I'm not gonna let you just go and basically, like, dilute my VC investment potential because I've chosen not to invest go with VCs.
858
01:09:22.070 --> 01:09:29.575
And and you're just gonna go and do that and just and and be malicious in terms of of the ways you do to do preorders,
859
01:09:31.475 --> 01:09:39.160
I'm not gonna let you do that and and go for a more restrictive license that still allows you to view the source, but doesn't allow you to take it.
860
01:09:39.540 --> 01:09:43.320
I mean, I I think that would that would be the main argument against,
861
01:09:44.885 --> 01:09:46.825
a a fully open source license.
862
01:09:48.325 --> 01:09:50.105
Where do like, what's your counterargument
863
01:09:50.405 --> 01:09:51.145
against that?
864
01:09:54.270 --> 01:10:03.465
I'll I'll start in, like, the way you can finish because I know you've been in the in the in the false game probably longer than I know that you've been in the false game longer than I have. But,
865
01:10:05.125 --> 01:10:07.704
I mean, yeah, it's a it's a business model. Right?
866
01:10:08.270 --> 01:10:08.770
And
867
01:10:09.150 --> 01:10:12.290
when it threatens your business model because people are,
868
01:10:13.630 --> 01:10:14.910
not upholding the same
869
01:10:15.550 --> 01:10:16.690
so so, like,
870
01:10:17.435 --> 01:10:19.295
if they upheld the same license
871
01:10:19.595 --> 01:10:20.095
that,
872
01:10:21.435 --> 01:10:23.535
that Coldcard did, right, and Coldcard
873
01:10:24.235 --> 01:10:28.010
obviously took code from from Trezor. Right? We know this.
874
01:10:28.790 --> 01:10:30.170
But but to be clear,
875
01:10:31.030 --> 01:10:38.635
they took, like, they took a very little amount of code, and the new update removes that code from from the software. For whatever it's It doesn't
876
01:10:39.335 --> 01:10:40.955
really matter. Be clear. Right?
877
01:10:41.255 --> 01:10:49.860
Yeah. I mean, like Just to be clear, they didn't change of the code they they took from Trezor, which was minimal amount of code compared to the amount of code that Foundation took. It's it's
878
01:10:50.240 --> 01:10:56.195
I I I'm not trying to I don't want it to be perceived that I'm defending my buddy Rodolfo.
879
01:10:56.975 --> 01:11:08.970
Even though he is my buddy, he's a close friend for me, But I I I I want this conversation to be talked about because no one's talking about this shit, and this is where what Citadel dispatch is about. We this is why we dispatch. Okay. Continue.
880
01:11:09.685 --> 01:11:20.619
Yeah. You're good. I mean and it's it's not an act to, like, his product. Right? Like, I don't think Rodolfo is a bad person. I think he's trying to look at it from a business perspective. Right? Like, it's a
881
01:11:21.080 --> 01:11:39.850
you know, someone literally taking a copy of his code. I I don't know every single detail, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that I do. But if it was, right, I I can understand being frustrated and being pissed, and then, you know, you getting people that you're losing potential customers because of it. Like, that makes sense. Right? But
882
01:11:40.550 --> 01:11:51.080
that's that's part of the game. Right? Like, that that's part of what this is. Literally, like, if I wanted to today to start my own samurai wallet, I could do that with the same licensing.
883
01:11:51.780 --> 01:11:57.525
As long as I kept the same licensing, I can I can push my own product and say, hey? This is I provide
884
01:11:57.985 --> 01:12:01.125
Whirlpool and Stonewall and Kahoots and
885
01:12:01.505 --> 01:12:08.060
Pay NIMs and all this stuff, and anybody can do this. You you're like, my wallet is better than samurai wallet.
886
01:12:08.440 --> 01:12:20.845
Right? Like, I I can do that. And then samurai wallet's going to be, like, okay, fucking game on. You know what I mean? Like, they're gonna say, hey, good to go. Let's do this. And they're going to step up to the challenge and fight it.
887
01:12:21.699 --> 01:12:25.800
That's Yeah. That's what I expect. That's called that that that's just straight competition.
888
01:12:26.260 --> 01:12:27.639
You know? I mean, everyone
889
01:12:28.535 --> 01:12:33.195
I I don't know. Like, I I do understand. I do understand, like, him wanting to protect his
890
01:12:33.655 --> 01:12:34.155
his
891
01:12:35.175 --> 01:12:39.860
his code. Right? Everyone wants to protect their code to some sort. Mhmm. You know? But,
892
01:12:41.360 --> 01:12:47.265
you know, if you want to claim that you are false, if you're a free open source software,
893
01:12:47.965 --> 01:13:04.555
you need to be copy left, not copyright. You need to be copy left, and you need to keep that because that that's what Bitcoin has always been on. That is what the Bitcoin community's been about. That's what, like, this whole the whole movement of free open source software
894
01:13:04.935 --> 01:13:13.219
has been about, like, yeah. Okay. Cool. You wanna take your stuff? Cool. We have different ideas because ultimately, like, Foundation's gonna have different ideas than
895
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:16.980
than NVK is. Right? Like, Rudolfo's gonna have a different,
896
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:22.935
like, perspective than Foundation is. It's better for us users that foundation exists.
897
01:13:23.875 --> 01:13:28.135
No. Say it again? To to be to be clear here. Okay? So I was
898
01:13:29.630 --> 01:13:40.465
I was being a little bit, you know, I I do this twice a week now. Okay? So I was being a little bit, gratuitous. I was trying to create the situation, and I will admit to that. But
899
01:13:41.885 --> 01:13:43.985
I personally have told Rodolfo,
900
01:13:46.180 --> 01:13:46.680
privately
901
01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:51.560
that I disagree with how he's proceeded with the situation. And I would add
902
01:13:52.180 --> 01:13:52.680
that
903
01:13:54.315 --> 01:13:55.055
I think
904
01:13:55.755 --> 01:14:00.335
that as big corners, we should support strictly free open source projects.
905
01:14:01.489 --> 01:14:04.070
All else equal, a free open source project
906
01:14:04.929 --> 01:14:09.670
that has a license that has no restrictions whatsoever on what I can do with the code
907
01:14:09.995 --> 01:14:10.815
is superior,
908
01:14:11.195 --> 01:14:16.735
and and that fosters the open source movement. It creates a foundation that other people can build on.
909
01:14:17.355 --> 01:14:18.175
I think
910
01:14:18.989 --> 01:14:19.730
this move
911
01:14:20.830 --> 01:14:21.969
by otherwise
912
01:14:22.429 --> 01:14:22.929
respected
913
01:14:23.230 --> 01:14:24.690
individuals in our community
914
01:14:25.310 --> 01:14:27.570
Rodolva's not the only one. Recently,
915
01:14:28.205 --> 01:14:33.585
the argument has been about Umbrel, and the Raspberry Pi Blitz guys have rightfully so brought up Umbrel's
916
01:14:33.965 --> 01:14:34.465
licensing.
917
01:14:34.765 --> 01:14:40.580
I know the Ronin Dojo guys. I know you guys have talked about it as well, and and this is a main part of of this discussion.
918
01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:43.860
It stems from insecurity.
919
01:14:45.204 --> 01:14:47.065
It stems from a level of insecurity.
920
01:14:47.605 --> 01:14:48.105
And
921
01:14:48.724 --> 01:14:51.625
if if I'm a user and I trust Coldcard,
922
01:14:52.164 --> 01:14:53.784
it doesn't matter if Foundation
923
01:14:54.840 --> 01:15:06.545
copies my code. It doesn't matter if they release a piece of product that's exactly the same as Coldcard. I mean, they they they release a product that looks different, but imagine they release a product that looks exactly the same as Coldcard,
924
01:15:09.005 --> 01:15:10.945
and they use the identical code.
925
01:15:11.429 --> 01:15:16.409
Like, I'm not gonna just immediately trust that product. Like, there there is there is a reputation
926
01:15:17.110 --> 01:15:19.050
at line like, there's a reputation
927
01:15:19.590 --> 01:15:20.730
on the line here
928
01:15:21.135 --> 01:15:25.715
that that that is as much as we say don't trust verified, that is that is in the picture.
929
01:15:26.015 --> 01:15:30.960
And it's the same exact thing with Samurai, and and and anyone who wants to
930
01:15:31.820 --> 01:15:36.079
protect their code and same thing with Umbrel. And anyone who wants to protect their code
931
01:15:36.505 --> 01:15:38.125
through restrictive licensing
932
01:15:38.665 --> 01:15:40.045
is someone who's insecure
933
01:15:40.585 --> 01:15:41.645
that their reputation,
934
01:15:42.505 --> 01:15:47.100
that their company, that their that the trust that they built up with their users,
935
01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:53.420
is not sufficient enough to propel them. And I I think that's a loser's mentality. Like, I think
936
01:15:53.925 --> 01:15:58.105
that these that these guys who I respect the fuck out of, to be quite honest,
937
01:15:58.965 --> 01:16:00.425
and that I consider friends,
938
01:16:00.725 --> 01:16:02.745
they they should just not be as insecure.
939
01:16:05.470 --> 01:16:13.065
Yeah. I I got my hand raised, guys. I got my hand raised. Okay. Like, well, what what do you think here? Alright. So here's the thing.
940
01:16:13.925 --> 01:16:26.775
You're a software developer. You're either going to write software that you're going to share with the world, or you're going to write software that you're not going to share with the world. It's either you're gonna open source it or you're not gonna open source it. Right?
941
01:16:27.495 --> 01:16:33.675
Rodolfo created very good software. In my opinion, Coldcar is is very thunderous hardware and software.
942
01:16:34.170 --> 01:16:34.670
Right?
943
01:16:35.450 --> 01:16:37.870
I think that he didn't understand,
944
01:16:38.170 --> 01:16:41.630
basically, what he was doing with the license. He didn't know.
945
01:16:42.355 --> 01:16:44.855
I don't I'm not trying to rag on him or anything,
946
01:16:45.395 --> 01:16:50.350
but he should've known the license that he was releasing his software in. Understand
947
01:16:51.210 --> 01:16:52.750
Foundation might have just took his code
948
01:16:53.210 --> 01:16:54.830
and took a lot of his work,
949
01:16:55.449 --> 01:17:02.575
and they got they went ahead and got VCs, and they got funding, and they they this is not what he wanted. He wanted to grow organically. Right?
950
01:17:03.195 --> 01:17:17.105
And and I admire that from him. You know? But you have to understand, when you create code like that and somebody takes it, it's because of the license that you choose, and you have to respect that. And that's that's that's what innovation does. You allow people to take your code
951
01:17:17.405 --> 01:17:27.800
and work on it and improve upon it. And this is what, you know, Copyleft allows. It allows people to go ahead and take your code and do whatever they want, but they're gonna have to contribute back. Right?
952
01:17:28.875 --> 01:17:32.415
So he shouldn't have gotten so mad about what they did.
953
01:17:33.435 --> 01:17:36.735
He is a better developer than they are. They took his code,
954
01:17:37.060 --> 01:17:43.720
basically. In the in the first place, they took his code. If they didn't need his code, they could've done their own code. Right? They could've done their own implementation.
955
01:17:44.715 --> 01:17:48.094
But he's has he has to be confident in his abilities
956
01:17:48.475 --> 01:17:50.014
and what he's going to do.
957
01:17:50.315 --> 01:17:55.519
He already has a a reputation of creating a piece of hardware. Hard you know, one of the,
958
01:17:55.820 --> 01:17:57.360
I think, the most popular,
959
01:17:58.139 --> 01:18:00.719
you know, cold storage wallets out there.
960
01:18:01.340 --> 01:18:02.480
Hands down. Right?
961
01:18:03.474 --> 01:18:08.135
He should not worry about foundation. He should just keep going and just and just focus.
962
01:18:08.675 --> 01:18:15.130
The thing that got me a little bit upset is him changing his license, which is it just goes against what he started,
963
01:18:15.910 --> 01:18:30.585
which is, you know, creating a license that allows other people to fork it, to innovate from it, and for him to get, you know, get back innovation that's coming from other people. So either, you know, you're gonna be closed source or open source. And that's that's the thing with me.
964
01:18:31.050 --> 01:18:34.990
You know, you wanna share it. I mean, let's let's think about Red Hat and other Linux distributions.
965
01:18:35.690 --> 01:18:36.750
If Ubuntu
966
01:18:37.450 --> 01:18:41.445
was closed source, then you wouldn't have the Redis, you know, like GENTILINUX.
967
01:18:42.305 --> 01:18:49.830
If they if that had a license, then people couldn't be able to, create forks out of it. You wouldn't have you wouldn't have other things that came out of it.
968
01:18:50.369 --> 01:18:51.429
So, you know,
969
01:18:51.730 --> 01:18:55.270
Red Hat made a lot of money. They made their money from support.
970
01:18:55.735 --> 01:19:00.635
And there's a lot of money in open source software. People think, oh, no. You can't make money off it. There is.
971
01:19:01.175 --> 01:19:09.150
You know? You you can't sell the code because it's open source. Right? Anybody can copy it. But you're building products from it, and you're building you're making money from the support.
972
01:19:09.690 --> 01:19:12.145
And that's the way it is, and I I just feel that
973
01:19:12.705 --> 01:19:13.765
he shouldn't feel
974
01:19:14.225 --> 01:19:20.885
threatened by Foundation. I know they they they took a lot of his hard work and dedication, and they went ahead
975
01:19:21.510 --> 01:19:23.370
and they did whatever they did. Right?
976
01:19:24.150 --> 01:19:29.770
He should just stay focused on what he's building, and that's it. That's that's just the thing that I that I feel about.
977
01:19:30.155 --> 01:19:40.820
And he shouldn't not change his license. He should've just kept it the way it is because right now, his license is just a little bit like you, you know, you you can take it, but you can't do nothing with it.
978
01:19:41.840 --> 01:19:45.700
And that's kinda like, you know it's a little fucked up, in my opinion.
979
01:19:47.765 --> 01:19:52.745
I agree a 100% with what you're saying, Matt. It it shows a sign of weakness, in my opinion.
980
01:19:54.619 --> 01:19:56.960
If you're if you're worried about the competition,
981
01:19:57.579 --> 01:19:58.079
right,
982
01:19:58.380 --> 01:20:01.760
like, if you're worried about them just taking what you do and then
983
01:20:02.139 --> 01:20:03.360
doing their own thing,
984
01:20:03.715 --> 01:20:08.215
that means that you're you're really are worried about them surpassing you.
985
01:20:08.595 --> 01:20:09.655
You know, I
986
01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:12.340
I definitely
987
01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:16.340
and and like you said, right, I actually do really do respect the developers.
988
01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:19.940
I mean, especially when you're talking about the node game. Right? Like,
989
01:20:21.585 --> 01:20:22.805
my node and
990
01:20:23.185 --> 01:20:33.110
and Umbrella in particular come into mind. I don't necessarily agree with their how they implement everything. I mean, I've already had my scuffs with some of the guys, but, you know, I think that,
991
01:20:35.010 --> 01:20:40.630
I think that, you know, when you have a really good product, you know, you shouldn't worry about everything else.
992
01:20:40.974 --> 01:20:46.195
Like, screw it. Like, if they're worried about Minot or if they're worried about, I don't know,
993
01:20:46.815 --> 01:20:47.315
Embassy,
994
01:20:47.934 --> 01:20:48.594
you know,
995
01:20:49.054 --> 01:20:50.114
make a better product.
996
01:20:50.500 --> 01:20:55.880
You know, make make have your community be the ones that back you, you know, because
997
01:20:57.060 --> 01:21:03.955
I I don't see that with Samurai Wallet. Like, I don't see like, they're completely open source. All you have to do is use the same license.
998
01:21:04.415 --> 01:21:08.755
But they're not worried about anything, and no one's even like, there's been other,
999
01:21:09.280 --> 01:21:09.780
like,
1000
01:21:11.200 --> 01:21:18.100
other companies have taken their code and made their own samurai wallet, but it's been for, you know, different coins that aren't on Bitcoin.
1001
01:21:19.105 --> 01:21:22.324
Obviously, like, that's not, like, a threat to SamRite Wallet, but, like,
1002
01:21:22.945 --> 01:21:24.724
if someone did, who cares?
1003
01:21:25.185 --> 01:21:27.445
SamRite Wallet has has a strong community.
1004
01:21:27.810 --> 01:21:30.070
You know, Umbrell has a strong community.
1005
01:21:30.530 --> 01:21:31.170
You know,
1006
01:21:31.570 --> 01:21:33.830
you know, Minode has a strong community.
1007
01:21:34.450 --> 01:21:48.840
Why would you worry about someone taking your code? And on top of that, like, it blow it it kinda it it makes me feel, like, kinda weird when I go to think about it, especially when you're talking about nodes. Right? Like, you're talking about, like, you're adding other people's code
1008
01:21:49.540 --> 01:21:50.520
to your code,
1009
01:21:51.219 --> 01:21:54.655
and you wanna claim, you know, you wanna claim something.
1010
01:21:55.675 --> 01:21:58.815
I was talking to one of the developers of mempool,
1011
01:21:59.275 --> 01:22:00.335
and he was like,
1012
01:22:00.950 --> 01:22:06.330
what? I'm I'm not gonna get his name, and it, but he was like, I have to pay a premium
1013
01:22:06.790 --> 01:22:08.890
to use my own code on my node.
1014
01:22:09.364 --> 01:22:11.145
How how absurd is that? You
1015
01:22:11.525 --> 01:22:15.545
know what I mean? Like, how absurd is the fact that, like, you can't just
1016
01:22:15.925 --> 01:22:17.145
utilize the code
1017
01:22:17.765 --> 01:22:22.090
that's right there? I don't know how relevant it is. I mean, I I agree.
1018
01:22:23.349 --> 01:22:24.010
I agree.
1019
01:22:24.389 --> 01:22:25.289
You know, ultimately
1020
01:22:25.989 --> 01:22:36.530
look. Citadel dispatch is a show about free open source software. Like, it's a it's a power of free open source software. So I agree. And I'm just I want it to be clear that I'm playing devil's advocate. Right? But in practice,
1021
01:22:37.550 --> 01:22:42.690
really, it doesn't if if if your source viewable, it doesn't matter if your if your license says,
1022
01:22:44.315 --> 01:22:49.295
the what really matters with your license if it says you can commercially use it however the fuck you want,
1023
01:22:49.915 --> 01:22:50.415
because,
1024
01:22:50.840 --> 01:23:02.215
personally, I can just I'm gonna use your code, and there's nothing you can do. Like, in practice, like, no one's gonna be able to enforce that shit. Right? So so really what you're saying is you're saying, like, a law abiding individual
1025
01:23:02.595 --> 01:23:03.895
can't create
1026
01:23:04.195 --> 01:23:06.535
a a company based off of this thing.
1027
01:23:07.880 --> 01:23:14.380
Right? Well, you should you should if you're, like okay. So if if you are a open source company
1028
01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:19.005
and you actually are you have a business model based on your open source software,
1029
01:23:19.784 --> 01:23:22.844
you should have lawyers that are ready to
1030
01:23:23.360 --> 01:23:25.460
prosecute if you need to. Right? Like, say,
1031
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:40.165
say, someone forks Ronan. I mean, I don't have lawyers on, so you guys can fork it. I'm not gonna be able to do shit about it. It, but say, you know, say that I did and and I have a business model based on that, based on, let's say, a premium, right,
1032
01:23:41.380 --> 01:23:43.880
which is not our thing. But if we had a premium
1033
01:23:44.340 --> 01:23:44.840
and
1034
01:23:45.380 --> 01:23:49.080
someone just forked it and was like, oh, we're gonna do the same thing, but we're gonna charge,
1035
01:23:49.405 --> 01:23:55.105
you know, 50% less. And we're gonna undercut them, but we're gonna offer the exact same thing. Right?
1036
01:23:56.285 --> 01:24:05.945
Yeah. I I would have lawyers that that would be able to fight me for it, you know, but it it ultimately depends. Right? It depends on how they implement the license. It depends on how everything else works.
1037
01:24:06.985 --> 01:24:08.844
But, ultimately, like, there is,
1038
01:24:09.145 --> 01:24:12.045
you know, there's a lot of nuances in licensing,
1039
01:24:12.824 --> 01:24:16.100
and you can if you're a developer, you can use that to your,
1040
01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:18.100
you know, to your benefit
1041
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:19.300
without
1042
01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:21.620
degrading the fact that you are
1043
01:24:22.800 --> 01:24:28.535
the fact that you are open source. You know, you want it to be the whole purpose, like I said, to go back from the beginning,
1044
01:24:28.835 --> 01:24:30.135
the whole purpose
1045
01:24:30.515 --> 01:24:31.895
of open source software
1046
01:24:32.370 --> 01:24:40.070
is that everybody grows and everyone gets better because no matter the no matter what company it is. Right? So say that
1047
01:24:40.415 --> 01:24:48.675
say you, Matt Odell, decided to fork Ronin and, you know, you wanted to add Lightning and you wanna do all this other stuff because I refuse to do it. Right?
1048
01:24:49.210 --> 01:25:05.475
You're gonna have your own user base. You're gonna have your own people, and then I'm gonna have my own people that disagree with your outlook on it. And that's how that's how we end up. I mean, there are operating systems that are literally that. Right? Fedora versus Red Hat. You know, it's the same thing.
1049
01:25:05.850 --> 01:25:06.750
You know? So,
1050
01:25:07.530 --> 01:25:13.150
ultimately, like, yeah, do you lose customers? Sure. But does, like, the world get better because of it? Yes.
1051
01:25:13.595 --> 01:25:15.775
You know, like, competition drives,
1052
01:25:16.155 --> 01:25:16.815
you know,
1053
01:25:17.115 --> 01:25:17.935
you know, drives,
1054
01:25:18.555 --> 01:25:19.055
innovation.
1055
01:25:19.595 --> 01:25:36.935
So why are we not accepting that? You know? Yeah. Like, just accept the competition and and say, you know, screw it. Like, let let's go to battle. Competition is good. Is it yeah. Competition is what we're here about. Zelkovic, I mean, you put it exactly how I mean, I I agree with everything you said. Right? I I I I don't,
1056
01:25:39.860 --> 01:25:47.960
like, fuck all this idea of suing people and using IP and all this shit. Right? Like, it it is a ridiculous premise. It is something that I am
1057
01:25:48.745 --> 01:25:49.245
intentionally
1058
01:25:49.625 --> 01:25:54.125
moved my life away from. Right? Like, I don't wanna deal with bureaucracy. That's why I have Bitcoin.
1059
01:25:54.425 --> 01:25:57.165
Right? Like, the this whole idea of open source,
1060
01:25:58.320 --> 01:25:59.060
this movement
1061
01:25:59.679 --> 01:26:07.615
is is bigger than just Bitcoin. It's the idea that we can all build on shared values. Right? That we can build on shared innovation, and then you don't have,
1062
01:26:08.635 --> 01:26:10.575
the Googles and the Apples of the world,
1063
01:26:11.195 --> 01:26:16.720
dictating what you can work on and what you can't work on. And, yes, as you add restrictions to the software,
1064
01:26:17.100 --> 01:26:22.000
then we're getting that on on smaller scales in Bitcoin, and and and you don't wanna see it.
1065
01:26:23.475 --> 01:26:25.015
I would argue that
1066
01:26:25.555 --> 01:26:29.735
I think where my hard line is is source viewable. I think, you know,
1067
01:26:31.080 --> 01:26:35.260
it's fucked up, but but it's the truth. It's, like, especially in shit corner land,
1068
01:26:35.640 --> 01:26:38.540
we have lots of wallets that are not even source viewable.
1069
01:26:39.645 --> 01:26:42.145
So if it's sourced viewable, at least you can fucking
1070
01:26:43.005 --> 01:26:44.385
break any kind of
1071
01:26:44.845 --> 01:26:46.465
bullshit licensing they have,
1072
01:26:48.160 --> 01:26:55.460
and make them go enforce it on an individual basis. But I do agree that, ultimately, what we really wanna support is just straight Libre,
1073
01:26:56.240 --> 01:26:57.540
free open source software.
1074
01:27:00.165 --> 01:27:02.025
Yeah. I mean Like yeah. Go on.
1075
01:27:02.565 --> 01:27:11.700
No. I mean and it goes with, like, everything. Right? I mean, I recently made a switch, and it doesn't just have to be about Bitcoin. You know? Like, I recently made a switch over to,
1076
01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:15.220
Calix OS. You know what I mean? Like,
1077
01:27:17.164 --> 01:27:19.344
there it's the same thing. So
1078
01:27:19.804 --> 01:27:20.304
it's
1079
01:27:21.164 --> 01:27:24.304
you need to understand if you're if you're the user, right,
1080
01:27:24.690 --> 01:27:27.270
pick what you want, pick who you trust.
1081
01:27:27.890 --> 01:27:32.630
Ultimately, like, if like, cold cards cold card product is solid.
1082
01:27:32.965 --> 01:27:34.344
You know, if, like,
1083
01:27:34.885 --> 01:27:38.824
you wanna see a change in their license because you believe in the whole
1084
01:27:39.125 --> 01:27:40.905
free open source software idea,
1085
01:27:42.679 --> 01:27:50.219
You know, make that you vocalize that. But, otherwise, like, you know, use what you trust. That's really what it comes down to. Use who you trust,
1086
01:27:51.855 --> 01:27:58.995
because, you know, when you talk to, like, normal people about free open source software, I was I was talking to my wife about it, and she was just like, so
1087
01:27:59.760 --> 01:28:11.745
what makes it different? I was like, well, I mean, like, it's it's our product. Like, people trust us. And she's like, that's really is that it? Because anybody can just take your code and just do whatever they want with it. And I was like, yeah.
1088
01:28:12.365 --> 01:28:20.040
She's like, that's it? And I was like, yeah. Well, like, it is what it is. You know? As long as they're they have the same licensing, they can do the same thing.
1089
01:28:20.340 --> 01:28:23.160
And Is it You know? It's crazy to think about.
1090
01:28:24.035 --> 01:28:25.475
What what what about
1091
01:28:27.795 --> 01:28:35.650
so I'm I'm loving this conversation. Okay. So so so I do agree that I think I think ultimately, like, it just comes down to insecurity, and I've
1092
01:28:36.030 --> 01:28:52.430
I've specifically told Rodolfo this a bunch of times. It's like, you hit the nail on the head right there, man. You're you're best in class. Like, you're best in class. It doesn't matter. Like, you could have a 1000000 competitors that all copy your same exact code, and you're still cold card. Like, why are you gonna create an issue out of nothing?
1093
01:28:52.969 --> 01:29:00.205
Why are you gonna create a concern out of out of the hard cores that are free open source till till they die, rightfully so,
1094
01:29:01.145 --> 01:29:07.380
and and create an issue out of that when when you're the leader of the pack? And he shouldn't have done that. And I hope he's listening to this right now,
1095
01:29:08.160 --> 01:29:10.980
rather than Clubhouse, and and and he's considering it.
1096
01:29:12.160 --> 01:29:12.980
That said,
1097
01:29:13.595 --> 01:29:16.415
to the Rodolfas of the world You know You know
1098
01:29:16.955 --> 01:29:17.855
You know I hope it wasn't.
1099
01:29:18.235 --> 01:29:24.960
Wait. Wait. We're we're we're we're the type of people, in general, that are against this this idea of communism, of socialism.
1100
01:29:25.500 --> 01:29:27.440
What do you say to the people who say
1101
01:29:27.900 --> 01:29:30.000
that open source software is
1102
01:29:31.265 --> 01:29:33.285
is is socialism, is communism,
1103
01:29:33.905 --> 01:29:35.925
that free open source software is communism?
1104
01:29:39.745 --> 01:29:40.405
I mean.
1105
01:29:41.410 --> 01:29:45.350
Guys, let's think about Bitcoin. Bitcoin is open source money. Right?
1106
01:29:45.810 --> 01:29:52.135
It's open source, and we don't have to worry about someone controlling it. It has censorship resistant, you know, permissionless. Right?
1107
01:29:52.755 --> 01:29:57.494
Open source code is code that people can run however they want. Right?
1108
01:29:57.960 --> 01:30:01.340
People can study the code. They can study if they have vulnerabilities.
1109
01:30:01.880 --> 01:30:02.860
This is awesome.
1110
01:30:03.239 --> 01:30:09.975
You can't do that with closed source software. You're running Windows. You don't know what the hell is happening back there. Okay?
1111
01:30:10.355 --> 01:30:15.495
With free open source, you can go ahead and distribute it how you want. You can copy it.
1112
01:30:15.990 --> 01:30:19.610
You can modify it however the hell you want. You can, you know, you can modify,
1113
01:30:20.470 --> 01:30:21.290
Google Chrome
1114
01:30:21.990 --> 01:30:42.619
browser, however you want. You can take out the freaking menus however you want. And that's the freedom of open source software. You can is you can go ahead and modify. It's like taking a car and just putting a different engine in it. Taking a car and putting tinted windows, putting a different stereo in it. That's awesome that we can do that with software, you know, and and and that's an amazing thing.
1115
01:30:42.925 --> 01:30:46.145
And it helps with our privacy. It helps with our security.
1116
01:30:46.845 --> 01:30:48.065
And I think that,
1117
01:30:48.525 --> 01:30:51.745
you know, closed cell software is just the fucking devil.
1118
01:30:55.020 --> 01:31:01.360
I mean, so I was just I was curious what you guys are gonna say, but, I mean, my argument would be that I think it's pure capitalism, is what it is.
1119
01:31:02.015 --> 01:31:08.835
I think you take away any kind of inherent advantages that any individual has, and you just operate on pure capitalism.
1120
01:31:09.770 --> 01:31:16.270
And that that's what a free open source software is to me. So I I I don't think it is incompatible with my worldview,
1121
01:31:17.185 --> 01:31:18.645
and I hope that more projects
1122
01:31:19.105 --> 01:31:31.210
opt to use licenses like Ronin Dojo and Samura Wallet I've chosen to use that is just completely copy left, which honestly, I hate the term copy left, but just this idea that anyone can use the code,
1123
01:31:31.525 --> 01:31:42.170
anyone can respect the code, anyone can use the code. They can do whatever the fuck they wanna do with the code. We're not gonna get any lawyers involved. We're not gonna get any regulators involved. We don't care what nation you're in when you make the fucking
1124
01:31:42.710 --> 01:31:43.210
software.
1125
01:31:43.750 --> 01:32:01.800
Like, fuck this, all this shit. Like, code is code. We're gonna use this code. We're gonna prove the code. We're gonna make it better. We're gonna run this shit, and that's it. Right? Like, fuck all this other shit. It's all noise. So I just wanna be I wanna be clear here that, you know, where does Matt stand? Where does Sidhula Dispatch stand? That's where they stand.
1126
01:32:03.059 --> 01:32:05.079
We have our good friend of the show,
1127
01:32:05.380 --> 01:32:05.880
Shinobi,
1128
01:32:07.255 --> 01:32:11.515
is is is coming at me on Twitter right now about this idea
1129
01:32:12.614 --> 01:32:13.114
that
1130
01:32:13.495 --> 01:32:13.995
remixers
1131
01:32:14.455 --> 01:32:15.835
in in samurai
1132
01:32:17.079 --> 01:32:19.099
don't increase the anonymity set
1133
01:32:19.480 --> 01:32:20.460
if if
1134
01:32:21.239 --> 01:32:24.780
if you are one of the individuals that aren't coin joining.
1135
01:32:27.425 --> 01:32:31.585
Why is this wrong? Like, I I I think this is simple logic. Am I
1136
01:32:32.610 --> 01:32:43.015
what am I missing here? How do we explain this better to the freaks? This idea that if a participant in your coin join round then goes on to do another coin join round, the probability
1137
01:32:44.035 --> 01:32:46.775
percentage of which your output is
1138
01:32:47.315 --> 01:32:47.815
increases
1139
01:32:48.195 --> 01:32:50.455
should be a very simple concept.
1140
01:32:51.600 --> 01:33:03.675
Where am I what am I missing here? You're not missing anything. And if I could be speaking in all caps right right now, I would be. Oh, there we go. Embrace the cap. Let the caps flow through you.
1141
01:33:04.215 --> 01:33:08.980
This is you know, Shinobi did the all caps before you, so it's okay. Oh, is that true?
1142
01:33:09.519 --> 01:33:14.500
A 100%. Are you serious? You never saw this Twitter. I thought I'm I'm the caps.
1143
01:33:15.039 --> 01:33:22.005
As far as this show is concerned, I started caps. No one no one had ever decided that they were gonna use all caps before me.
1144
01:33:22.385 --> 01:33:25.445
Listen, you did all caps for things that didn't need all caps.
1145
01:33:25.825 --> 01:33:27.205
Shouldn't there's all caps.
1146
01:33:27.599 --> 01:33:37.305
Maybe there's all caps to yell at people on Twitter. So Matt, you forked the license for all caps. Look at look at the fake in the comments. Look at the freaking All caps. Shinobi has a copyright
1147
01:33:37.685 --> 01:33:39.545
on all caps speaking.
1148
01:33:40.005 --> 01:33:40.505
Anyways,
1149
01:33:41.285 --> 01:33:43.785
I okay. So here's my thing. Right?
1150
01:33:44.165 --> 01:33:50.630
He's saying it it equal outputs does and not does not give you what so if you don't remix, it does not give you
1151
01:33:50.930 --> 01:33:53.910
more anonymity sets. If other people are around,
1152
01:33:54.450 --> 01:33:54.950
remix.
1153
01:33:55.755 --> 01:33:57.295
Yeah. No. That that's illogical.
1154
01:33:57.755 --> 01:34:01.454
Right? Because if if I could, like, show on a board right now, right,
1155
01:34:01.755 --> 01:34:06.170
you are 1 of 5 that comes out. So if anyone in those 14
1156
01:34:06.550 --> 01:34:07.050
remixes,
1157
01:34:07.750 --> 01:34:12.650
no one can tell because those those deterministic lengths from your TX 0, your premix.
1158
01:34:13.095 --> 01:34:25.440
Right? No one could tell which one you are. So one of those 5 gets remixed, not one not being you. They get remixed. How does anyone outside observer looking at it can see, hey, that person is
1159
01:34:25.820 --> 01:34:26.320
Zelco.
1160
01:34:26.780 --> 01:34:38.920
Right? They can't. So now you went from 4 to 9. Right? Because that one, one of those other 4 people got remixed. So now you went to 9 possible outcomes.
1161
01:34:39.380 --> 01:34:43.080
K? So and then, say, another one from your initial
1162
01:34:43.380 --> 01:34:44.200
your initial,
1163
01:34:44.660 --> 01:34:48.905
mix gets remixed. Alright. Cool. So now you went from 9
1164
01:34:49.285 --> 01:34:49.785
to
1165
01:34:50.325 --> 01:34:50.825
14.
1166
01:34:51.285 --> 01:34:56.720
Right? And that's before. This is saying that you haven't remixed at all. You're just lucky that other people have remixed.
1167
01:34:57.100 --> 01:35:03.600
And then out of that, out of either of those 2, we'll say, Echelon 2 or tier 2 remixes
1168
01:35:04.845 --> 01:35:07.105
of people that were not necessarily you,
1169
01:35:07.965 --> 01:35:12.520
2 other people remixed. So now you're looking at another 20. Right? So that's 34.
1170
01:35:12.980 --> 01:35:18.600
And then from that second one that I went to, I really wish I had a diagram because this will make it look so much better. But
1171
01:35:19.205 --> 01:35:23.465
you we see that that extrapolates, and that's a a literally a a
1172
01:35:24.165 --> 01:35:27.305
perfect example of why that 0 that equal output
1173
01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:28.620
is so important.
1174
01:35:29.000 --> 01:35:36.860
Right? That equal output means that no one can see and no one can tell who is who and where who's getting remixed and who's not getting remixed.
1175
01:35:37.195 --> 01:35:39.054
The only time that you don't get
1176
01:35:39.435 --> 01:35:40.815
forward looking anonymity
1177
01:35:41.435 --> 01:35:55.585
is the moment that you move your coins out of the pool. So the moment that you spend, the moment that you send out to cold storage or whatever, which again is fine. Everyone has their own thing. I'm all for spending. I'm all for sending wherever you want. But the moment that you come out of there,
1178
01:35:55.885 --> 01:35:57.825
that's one less UTXO
1179
01:35:58.205 --> 01:35:59.825
that is possible on the pool,
1180
01:36:00.205 --> 01:36:02.225
and that's fine. But that's why it's encouraged,
1181
01:36:02.690 --> 01:36:06.389
right, to remix as long as you can. Someone in the chat asked earlier,
1182
01:36:06.770 --> 01:36:08.550
how long should I remix for,
1183
01:36:09.250 --> 01:36:13.115
and then when should I draw my coins out? And I'll just caveat into that answer,
1184
01:36:14.215 --> 01:36:22.640
which my answer in the chat was, hey. You know, remix for however long that you feel like you should. I know it's not, like, an actual answer.
1185
01:36:22.940 --> 01:36:34.434
Right? But determine what a good time is for you. Say you wanna wait, you know, 3 months or 2 months or, you know, 2 weeks, you know, and then say you mixed 1 whole Bitcoin. Right?
1186
01:36:34.735 --> 01:36:37.635
Send a little bit at a time at different varying,
1187
01:36:38.895 --> 01:36:39.395
different
1188
01:36:39.950 --> 01:36:42.050
times. Right? So say you send
1189
01:36:42.670 --> 01:36:43.570
point 04
1190
01:36:44.270 --> 01:36:49.175
in 3 weeks after that, and then you wait 2 weeks, and then you send 0.02,
1191
01:36:49.475 --> 01:36:53.655
and then so on and so forth. You send them out at different times. But,
1192
01:36:54.610 --> 01:37:03.679
yes. To be clear Yeah. To be clear here, we're talking about forward looking. We're not talking about backward looking. And and Shinobi is intentionally misrepresenting me to be backward
1193
01:37:06.675 --> 01:37:13.575
backward looking for the majority of people is coming straight from a KYC exchange, and they have no fucking privacy whatsoever backward looking.
1194
01:37:13.890 --> 01:37:17.909
So let's try and be practical here and look forward looking.
1195
01:37:18.210 --> 01:37:19.909
Shinobi is also claiming
1196
01:37:20.449 --> 01:37:26.025
that I am misrepresenting him even though I am explaining what he is commenting live
1197
01:37:26.645 --> 01:37:30.825
while we have a live comment section that is broadcast to everyone
1198
01:37:31.500 --> 01:37:34.239
in this fucking show that no other show has.
1199
01:37:34.940 --> 01:37:48.494
So fuck you on that regard, Shinobi. I've been very practical with you. I consider you a friend. I wish you just didn't treat me in a way that was, you know, I I I I just feel like you're you're you're treating me like a bad actor
1200
01:37:48.890 --> 01:37:53.470
when I've I've tried to to employ this here. I've I've I've I've tried to
1201
01:37:54.250 --> 01:37:56.510
talk about all these different nuances here,
1202
01:37:57.495 --> 01:38:05.835
and and and and the the fact of the matter is fucking clear on ZeroLink is is if someone else remixes in your round,
1203
01:38:06.199 --> 01:38:16.885
obviously, that increases your anonymity set. They the the it's a probability game. You have a probability game in Bitcoin. When you're tracking Bitcoin, it's a probability game. You're deciding
1204
01:38:17.265 --> 01:38:22.645
this person is 72% likely of going down this path. And if you're in that situation
1205
01:38:23.340 --> 01:38:24.800
and you have other people
1206
01:38:25.180 --> 01:38:27.360
that are in your probability graph
1207
01:38:27.980 --> 01:38:42.410
that are increasing their probability, then your probability increases. It's basic it's basic logic. It's a very simple concept. You if if I remix with you and then Zelko goes and remixes with, like, 15 different people, I benefit from Zelco.
1208
01:38:43.270 --> 01:38:43.770
Correct.
1209
01:38:44.230 --> 01:38:54.795
I mean, he's he doesn't understand the difference between and, I mean, he's already responded to me, but I I've learned long ago to not let Shinobi dictate how I feel,
1210
01:38:55.335 --> 01:38:56.795
because he's genuinely
1211
01:38:57.415 --> 01:38:57.915
biased,
1212
01:38:58.290 --> 01:38:58.790
and,
1213
01:38:59.409 --> 01:39:02.710
I don't wanna call him an idiot because I'm sure he's smart in other areas,
1214
01:39:03.250 --> 01:39:06.630
but he's, he lets his bias and he lets his
1215
01:39:07.035 --> 01:39:08.335
his emotions feel,
1216
01:39:09.035 --> 01:39:10.255
feel where it comes from.
1217
01:39:10.635 --> 01:39:11.215
I mean,
1218
01:39:11.595 --> 01:39:12.095
6102
1219
01:39:12.475 --> 01:39:19.760
already said it. Right? Like, he's talking about backwards anonymity, which is hard set. You You can't talk about He's he's he's he's
1220
01:39:21.580 --> 01:39:33.520
he's decided that he wants to nitpick every fucking thing I say, and he wants to be ridiculous about it. And now he's talking about how users do not have add onsets, only UTXOs do. So he's not acting in good faith,
1221
01:39:34.080 --> 01:39:56.530
and and it's unfortunate that this is where we had to end up. You know? But send them over to me. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna help him set up Bowman's calculator. Okay? I'll I'll I'll help him set it up. It's it's it's it's it's unfortunate that someone that I had respect for decides that they want to just act in bad faith over and over again just because I called them out once. And and it is what it is,
1222
01:39:57.630 --> 01:40:04.105
but but here we are. So, I mean, let let's let's just drop all of this. It's not fucking worth our time.
1223
01:40:04.485 --> 01:40:06.825
The point is, if you wanna look at the logic,
1224
01:40:07.700 --> 01:40:10.040
if you use actually proper ZERELINK,
1225
01:40:10.820 --> 01:40:13.000
other people mixing should improve
1226
01:40:13.300 --> 01:40:14.120
your privacy
1227
01:40:14.635 --> 01:40:19.055
because it increases the probability that you could be any of those other fucking UTXOs.
1228
01:40:20.315 --> 01:40:22.895
That is what it is. That is just basic math.
1229
01:40:24.010 --> 01:40:27.230
Yeah. I mean, but like like I said, don't don't let Shinobi,
1230
01:40:27.690 --> 01:40:29.309
you know, get under your skin.
1231
01:40:29.849 --> 01:40:36.585
I've gone to battle as well as many of the other samurai guys, gone to battle with him, and it's hopeless. And it's
1232
01:40:38.380 --> 01:40:41.680
and it's funny. And, you know, like, after a while, you know, you go through
1233
01:40:42.140 --> 01:40:46.720
a samurai users, dedicated samurai users, a lot of people think it's, like, cult like following.
1234
01:40:47.785 --> 01:40:50.925
It's more that family that you end up having. Right? Like,
1235
01:40:51.785 --> 01:40:53.245
you see people attack,
1236
01:40:54.185 --> 01:40:56.840
attack the code that you know is good. Right?
1237
01:40:57.400 --> 01:41:00.699
We've seen this with whether it's mister Hodel or whether it's Shinobi.
1238
01:41:01.239 --> 01:41:03.500
You see them attack stuff, and even, like
1239
01:41:03.960 --> 01:41:06.825
like, I've never been more frustrated as a person that works
1240
01:41:07.305 --> 01:41:08.365
like, has dedicated,
1241
01:41:08.905 --> 01:41:11.165
like, 3 years now to
1242
01:41:11.865 --> 01:41:12.365
bringing
1243
01:41:12.905 --> 01:41:15.965
Jojo to as many people as I can. Right?
1244
01:41:16.630 --> 01:41:23.050
Strictly because I believe in it. Right? Because I believe in the idea of running your own node. You know, an added effect is that,
1245
01:41:23.910 --> 01:41:29.995
an added effect is that no one is or the the whole, like, oh, Samura, I can see your your
1246
01:41:30.455 --> 01:41:37.350
x bulbs or whatever. Like, yeah. No shit. I mean, like, that's the same as any node like, any wallet that you use that you're not running your node.
1247
01:41:37.730 --> 01:41:42.790
But, you know, they make they make all these different claims, and I'm like, dude, there are so many nodes
1248
01:41:43.165 --> 01:41:47.744
that run Dojo. Like, even now, we have Umbrel that added it. Right? So you have Umbrel,
1249
01:41:48.125 --> 01:41:49.425
nodal, Ronin,
1250
01:41:49.804 --> 01:41:50.304
Mynoo,
1251
01:41:50.810 --> 01:41:57.230
Vanilla To be clear wait. Wait. To be clear here, for the the average user that might be confused and scared. Okay?
1252
01:41:58.575 --> 01:42:05.955
You're right to be confused and scared. Your privacy sucks. You're just failing in privacy in every respect in Bitcoin. Okay?
1253
01:42:07.159 --> 01:42:13.260
Don't don't let this argument scare you off, though. Like, you will figure it out. You'll make it happen,
1254
01:42:15.035 --> 01:42:21.195
slowly and surely. You just have to trust yourself, and you just have to, like, be diligent about it. But,
1255
01:42:21.675 --> 01:42:23.135
to be absolutely clear,
1256
01:42:23.840 --> 01:42:24.980
if and and
1257
01:42:25.600 --> 01:42:35.615
I know Zelco and, like, well, will disagree with me here. If you use CoinJoin of any sort, I think it's a net improvement. If you seek out any kind of privacy benefit, I think it's a net improvement.
1258
01:42:36.155 --> 01:42:40.175
Use your own node. Try and learn how to use the different CoinJoin implementations.
1259
01:42:40.690 --> 01:42:43.429
I think Whirlpool is strictly the best implementation.
1260
01:42:43.969 --> 01:42:49.750
I think you should use the Samura Stack. But if you're if you're a Bitcoiner and you're using any kind of
1261
01:42:50.465 --> 01:42:50.965
CoinJoin
1262
01:42:51.505 --> 01:42:52.005
implementation,
1263
01:42:52.385 --> 01:42:59.684
you're on the right track. You're using Lightning, you're on the right track. These these are these are more advanced user features, and these are things you need to learn now
1264
01:43:00.020 --> 01:43:02.040
before your government tries to
1265
01:43:02.580 --> 01:43:04.440
come down and and and
1266
01:43:04.900 --> 01:43:13.035
and and stop you from using these things in a in a more free way. Man, I can't agree with you more. I don't wanna discourage people. I don't want I don't want people to be discouraged
1267
01:43:13.495 --> 01:43:23.090
from privacy just because some assholes want to fucking pick fights with me while I'm live. Man, I can't agree with you more. You're absolutely right about that. But let me just be honest with everybody.
1268
01:43:23.870 --> 01:43:25.170
The best privacy
1269
01:43:25.745 --> 01:43:28.725
is to keep all your Bitcoin in Coinbase. Okay, guys?
1270
01:43:29.425 --> 01:43:30.405
No. In Coinbase,
1271
01:43:30.945 --> 01:43:31.925
you'll be safe.
1272
01:43:32.225 --> 01:43:33.205
Fuck you, dude.
1273
01:43:34.350 --> 01:43:38.690
You want me to disconnect you? On the top. Alright? You're losing money by having money in Coinbase.
1274
01:43:41.935 --> 01:43:42.415
Yeah. I,
1275
01:43:42.975 --> 01:43:47.395
You're trusting them with your privacy if you keep your money in any kind of custodial
1276
01:43:48.015 --> 01:43:48.515
institution.
1277
01:43:49.349 --> 01:43:57.849
That's for sure. Right? But with the external privacy, you get some external privacy. I do agree with that, but fuck you for even bringing them.
1278
01:43:59.095 --> 01:44:00.875
Matt, I I mean, I agree with you. Right?
1279
01:44:01.255 --> 01:44:08.475
Like, everyone should be using the tools to I mean, like, that's diverter's thing. Right? Use the tools. He's not gonna be the fucking tools, guys.
1280
01:44:08.910 --> 01:44:21.155
Use use everything that we talked about. But, ultimately, like, if you are a person that is super confused right now and you are, like, I don't understand the CoinJoin debate. I don't understand which one to use.
1281
01:44:21.535 --> 01:44:22.435
I don't understand
1282
01:44:23.695 --> 01:44:24.675
why I should use
1283
01:44:25.270 --> 01:44:29.130
why I should use them. Number 1, if you don't know why to use them, you haven't been listening to,
1284
01:44:29.989 --> 01:44:31.130
to SITO dispatch
1285
01:44:31.430 --> 01:44:33.735
or TFTC, so shame on you.
1286
01:44:34.295 --> 01:44:39.514
But second thing is if you're really not sure which one to do, like,
1287
01:44:39.895 --> 01:44:42.074
just play with them. Like, go on Testnet,
1288
01:44:42.500 --> 01:44:46.520
test each one, and then look at the transactions. Like, you have to
1289
01:44:47.060 --> 01:44:49.880
you know, privacy and security is,
1290
01:44:50.304 --> 01:44:57.205
like, I I think you say it best, Matt. Like, it's a small step forward. Every time that you go to do something, you have to take the small steps forward.
1291
01:44:57.660 --> 01:45:03.440
So if you are you actually care about your privacy and you care about the the outcomes of your transactions,
1292
01:45:03.820 --> 01:45:08.224
right, in Bitcoin, you need to you need to play around and see which one is best. And then
1293
01:45:08.605 --> 01:45:23.730
and then you need to be thinking and asking other people, like, the different threat models. Matt brings up Matt, you're, like, great at threat models. I'll give you that. Like, you're really good at thing outside the box as far as, like, why things would be a different threat model because I don't always think that way. But
1294
01:45:25.575 --> 01:45:34.075
what what people need to do is, like, if you're not sure and and this is generally what happens when I get tired of debating with someone about, like, why they should not use join market or
1295
01:45:34.510 --> 01:45:45.225
Wasabi. I'm like, dude, just go use it. Like, if you don't believe me, download it, go on Testnet, use it, and then look at your outcomes, and tell me why that that is better.
1296
01:45:45.525 --> 01:45:48.505
But no. So so so wait. Wait. Zelco. So so so
1297
01:45:48.930 --> 01:45:55.590
this is this is me versus BCash all over again. Okay? So it's like, I agree with the person 99%,
1298
01:45:56.610 --> 01:45:57.270
and then,
1299
01:45:57.855 --> 01:46:00.355
like, he was gonna be my brother. So so
1300
01:46:00.655 --> 01:46:03.875
here's the example. Okay? So I went to my lady's,
1301
01:46:04.335 --> 01:46:05.235
friend's wedding,
1302
01:46:06.490 --> 01:46:12.270
and there was a Bitcoiner there. Right? And I spent 3 hours to him, and we got along famously.
1303
01:46:12.705 --> 01:46:18.324
This guy was gonna be my future brother. It was amazing that I met him at my my lady's friend's wedding.
1304
01:46:18.625 --> 01:46:22.165
Didn't know anyone there. That's the coolest fucking thing ever. We agree on everything.
1305
01:46:23.550 --> 01:46:25.170
Turns out he was a b cacher.
1306
01:46:26.110 --> 01:46:29.410
Right? And we disagreed vehemently on that last 1%.
1307
01:46:31.295 --> 01:46:36.835
That's how I feel about people who use Wasabi or joint market. It's like, those people are my people.
1308
01:46:37.860 --> 01:46:41.880
Those people agree that Bitcoin privacy is of the utmost importance.
1309
01:46:43.380 --> 01:46:47.355
We just disagree on the final step. We disagree on that last
1310
01:46:48.375 --> 01:46:49.355
that last 1%.
1311
01:46:50.135 --> 01:46:57.540
Yeah. I mean, listen, refu refugees are always welcome, and I don't mean that as people crossing the border. I mean that, like, quite literally. Like,
1312
01:46:57.920 --> 01:47:02.285
once you realize that you've you that your privacy is kinda fucked,
1313
01:47:03.145 --> 01:47:07.405
you know, you it's okay. We still accept you. We're willing to forgive.
1314
01:47:08.880 --> 01:47:11.139
You know, it's not really the anger
1315
01:47:11.599 --> 01:47:12.900
and the frustration
1316
01:47:13.679 --> 01:47:14.179
towards,
1317
01:47:15.199 --> 01:47:16.659
towards those other implementations
1318
01:47:17.119 --> 01:47:28.320
isn't about it's it's honestly, like, 100%, it's not about the users. It's 0% about the users at all. So your people that are listening that, I know someone was talking about it,
1319
01:47:28.780 --> 01:47:29.600
in the chat,
1320
01:47:30.220 --> 01:47:33.920
and it's what he's saying, it it isn't relevant to what I'm saying, but
1321
01:47:34.425 --> 01:47:40.205
it's not bad. Like, we're not we're not mad at at users. We're mad at the developers who it's almost in
1322
01:47:42.185 --> 01:47:42.505
it's
1323
01:47:43.580 --> 01:47:49.599
they don't care. Like, what they're doing is reckless, in our opinion, at least in my opinion. What they do is reckless. Right?
1324
01:47:49.980 --> 01:47:54.405
And when you know that you have an our opinion. That it's hurting, it's hurting your users.
1325
01:47:55.345 --> 01:48:09.465
Yeah. Like, you're you're hurting your users. You know what I mean? Like, you are falsely and then you go out and you attack samurai wallet who's doing the right things. Right? Yeah. They they may be aggressive, and they might be willing to fight back. Right? But,
1326
01:48:10.965 --> 01:48:18.105
but they but they're not the other developers aren't looking out for their users. If you don't if you're a developer and you don't care about your users,
1327
01:48:18.630 --> 01:48:19.930
then you're not,
1328
01:48:20.310 --> 01:48:31.554
like, you're not doing the right thing. And it should really start with the fact that, like, you are your own user. Right? So if you're your own user, all these other things you notice, you see, and you fix.
1329
01:48:31.855 --> 01:48:35.855
I'm the perfect example. I'm the fucking perfect example. I fucking
1330
01:48:36.980 --> 01:48:40.760
I used and shield the fucking shit out of hubby.
1331
01:48:41.140 --> 01:48:46.705
I was the best shield that they ever could have asked for. They never paid a cent for it. I paid them.
1332
01:48:47.645 --> 01:48:48.145
Right?
1333
01:48:48.845 --> 01:48:56.030
And I realized that the implementation was broken. And I went to them and I was like, the implementation is broken, and they did not fucking fix it.
1334
01:48:57.610 --> 01:49:06.155
And here I am now telling people to use Whirlpool, you know. I'm not saying that Whirlpool is perfect. I'm saying if I think that Whirlpool is broken,
1335
01:49:06.614 --> 01:49:07.594
I will be outspoken
1336
01:49:08.054 --> 01:49:12.040
about Whirlpool being broken. And if they don't fix it, I will fucking
1337
01:49:12.660 --> 01:49:17.880
flip shits forever until they fucking fix it. And that's what I did with Wasabi,
1338
01:49:18.725 --> 01:49:23.945
And and that's that's as a user and a spokesperson because what happens with privacy technology,
1339
01:49:24.405 --> 01:49:26.665
if we don't have people using privacy technology,
1340
01:49:27.210 --> 01:49:34.909
privacy technology doesn't work. We need people to use it. Every single privacy technology, whether that's Tor or VPN or encryption
1341
01:49:35.210 --> 01:49:35.710
or
1342
01:49:36.035 --> 01:49:36.935
or CoinJoin,
1343
01:49:37.395 --> 01:49:38.535
is it requires
1344
01:49:38.915 --> 01:49:43.095
people to use it. We need a crowd to use it. If we don't have a crowd using it,
1345
01:49:44.330 --> 01:49:45.550
then it's just
1346
01:49:45.850 --> 01:49:47.390
me, Zelco, and Likewell
1347
01:49:48.090 --> 01:50:11.525
mixing amongst each other, and there's no privacy. Exactly. I mean, like, that I mean, that's how it was in the beginning of Whirlpool. Like, there really was not much liquidity, and we just saw it grow and grow. But, yeah, I mean, if people don't use the tools, then it just dies. Right? Or it makes it really easy to identify those people. We need people to coinjoin. We need people to to use whatever it is that they want. But,
1348
01:50:12.864 --> 01:50:14.405
you know, when we see people,
1349
01:50:15.824 --> 01:50:16.885
when we see developers,
1350
01:50:17.540 --> 01:50:23.559
right, that sit in there I I like to think of developers sometimes because I'm I wouldn't consider myself the average developer,
1351
01:50:24.875 --> 01:50:27.295
mostly because I come from a nontechnical background.
1352
01:50:28.635 --> 01:50:37.239
You know, you see developers sit in their ivory tower and their egos get so big. Right? They get so inflated, and people pat them on the back and tell them that they're great.
1353
01:50:37.700 --> 01:50:38.280
And then
1354
01:50:38.900 --> 01:50:48.114
they to to be able to admit when they're wrong. We had we had a long discussion about this in one of our one of our chats where we did, like, a live stream in Telegram, but, like,
1355
01:50:50.000 --> 01:50:54.820
it it blows my mind that, like, you know, when it comes to your users in your product
1356
01:50:55.360 --> 01:50:58.340
as a developer, you need to be able to be humble
1357
01:50:58.695 --> 01:51:06.795
when it comes down to it. I know I know being humble is not always a thing, but you need to be able to step back and say, like, hey. Like, what we did was wrong.
1358
01:51:07.100 --> 01:51:09.600
Samurai Wallet or or whoever was right,
1359
01:51:09.980 --> 01:51:13.280
let's implement it. You know? Like, bit 47.
1360
01:51:13.739 --> 01:51:18.185
Like, why is that, like, why is that not a thing across all Why is that not a thing?
1361
01:51:18.885 --> 01:51:20.425
Because people because
1362
01:51:20.725 --> 01:51:23.705
the only wallet that has it is samurai wallet.
1363
01:51:24.119 --> 01:51:30.940
What's samurai? Don't realize what people don't realize is this space is still so fucking small. It's still so fucking incestuous
1364
01:51:31.400 --> 01:51:32.699
that I am probably
1365
01:51:33.665 --> 01:51:34.565
one of
1366
01:51:35.265 --> 01:51:39.125
200, 300 people who have used both lightning and liquid.
1367
01:51:39.665 --> 01:51:45.260
Like, that's a I think that's a good example. And I I realized this recently because Grubles was asking questions
1368
01:51:45.720 --> 01:51:51.420
about Lightning, and we all know he uses Liquid. Like, he's our Blockstream boy. I we all know he uses Liquid.
1369
01:51:52.095 --> 01:51:53.475
He doesn't use Lightning.
1370
01:51:54.255 --> 01:52:05.520
He just used Lightning for the first time, and there's plenty of people on the opposite side that have never used Liquid. And there's plenty of people that are commenting about CoinJoin that have never used CoinJoin, have never used either implementation,
1371
01:52:06.140 --> 01:52:08.080
have never used any of the 3 implementations.
1372
01:52:08.795 --> 01:52:11.695
So here I am sitting with using all 3 implementations.
1373
01:52:12.315 --> 01:52:24.800
I've used Lightning. I've used Liquid. It's like I have a superpower. It's like all of a sudden I fucking use the things that we're talking about, so I'm able to fucking talk about them. Now I have a Shinobi in here saying that I was being misleading
1374
01:52:25.340 --> 01:52:27.760
about saying that users are UTXOs.
1375
01:52:28.625 --> 01:52:30.485
One of the cool things about Whirlpool,
1376
01:52:30.945 --> 01:52:32.885
to be absolutely fucking clear,
1377
01:52:33.264 --> 01:52:39.580
is that with Whirlpool, the way they they sanitize the transactions before they go into the CoinJoin
1378
01:52:40.120 --> 01:52:42.219
is they set it up in a way that the the
1379
01:52:42.679 --> 01:52:43.340
the more
1380
01:52:43.719 --> 01:52:51.594
funds you come in with, they'll lower your fee. And any funds they come in with at the same time can be considered the same user,
1381
01:52:51.895 --> 01:52:53.275
which creates this incentive
1382
01:52:53.990 --> 01:53:10.990
where where a good user is going to basically docks their transactions as all of their own, and they won't be included in the same round. So you get separated amongst other rounds because you're considered as the same user even though it's simply a UTXO. It's a UTXO coming in.
1383
01:53:12.030 --> 01:53:20.975
So that's a very important point. So I I I do applaud Shenobi for having us bring that up to the freaks. And if the freaks didn't realize that, it's important for them to realize that.
1384
01:53:23.455 --> 01:53:24.035
I mean,
1385
01:53:25.375 --> 01:53:29.395
do you guys have any other comments on this subject, or should we move on to the next subject?
1386
01:53:32.150 --> 01:53:37.690
I'm just trying to look at the chat because I see a bunch of questions that people are trying to to get to.
1387
01:53:39.305 --> 01:53:42.525
I see, is there a balance comparison? It's from James Viggie.
1388
01:53:42.905 --> 01:53:48.360
Is there a balance comparison of the 2 implementation that explains the trade offs or exposes the fatal flaw, etcetera?
1389
01:53:48.820 --> 01:53:52.280
Genuine question looking for resources to understand the debate.
1390
01:53:53.140 --> 01:53:53.640
So
1391
01:53:54.455 --> 01:53:57.835
I would say with, with that, the balanced comparison,
1392
01:53:58.935 --> 01:54:02.795
there's been a lot of there's been research papers done by OXD Research,
1393
01:54:03.230 --> 01:54:08.110
although you may seem it's biased, so it's fine. It is biased, to be honest. How many
1394
01:54:08.670 --> 01:54:11.230
it's owned by Sam or a wallet, but I would go towards
1395
01:54:12.715 --> 01:54:14.574
I would take a look at 6102's
1396
01:54:14.875 --> 01:54:16.014
work. So 6102,
1397
01:54:16.315 --> 01:54:17.695
big shout out. I mean,
1398
01:54:18.474 --> 01:54:18.974
I've
1399
01:54:20.155 --> 01:54:25.520
I've been I've been friends with a guy for a while and worked with him for a long time, but he he was
1400
01:54:26.060 --> 01:54:27.520
a Wasabi, like,
1401
01:54:28.140 --> 01:54:28.640
documentation
1402
01:54:29.260 --> 01:54:29.760
contributor.
1403
01:54:30.485 --> 01:54:32.585
And so he knows the ins and outs of Wasabi
1404
01:54:32.965 --> 01:54:39.785
and then was, you know, also working with Samurowel to also address issues or implement new things and
1405
01:54:40.770 --> 01:54:46.630
was a shill for that as well. So he he's seen both sides and joined market. So he's done the research,
1406
01:54:47.570 --> 01:54:49.270
from an unbiased perspective.
1407
01:54:50.195 --> 01:54:53.015
At least in my opinion, as unbiased as I can see it.
1408
01:54:53.475 --> 01:54:55.255
So he's got the research there.
1409
01:54:55.875 --> 01:55:02.730
James, if you wanna go take a look at his stuff, hopefully, he'll post he's listening, and he'll post his, his links.
1410
01:55:03.190 --> 01:55:03.690
But,
1411
01:55:04.150 --> 01:55:06.730
yeah, I mean, there's it's not a real comparison.
1412
01:55:07.055 --> 01:55:07.535
Like, there's no
1413
01:55:09.295 --> 01:55:15.635
It's weird that it's weird that him and 2. That him and Bitcoin p and a haven't released any kind of,
1414
01:55:17.320 --> 01:55:21.100
61 and 2 has coin join overview. He just posted it in the Twitch
1415
01:55:23.320 --> 01:55:25.420
chat. Let me see if I can copy this.
1416
01:55:26.074 --> 01:55:31.295
Yeah. I was about to do this. I'm gonna try and copy it over to the other chats if possible. Let me see here.
1417
01:55:31.755 --> 01:55:36.920
No. We're good. We got it. But yeah. May oh, yeah. Maybe you can post it on the over on the overlay.
1418
01:55:39.620 --> 01:55:40.500
But I I
1419
01:55:43.405 --> 01:55:50.465
I the the the thing is is, first of all, we do need a if if 60 I mean, I know 61 2 is listening or Bitcoin q and a. We need, like, we need an actual
1420
01:55:52.660 --> 01:55:53.720
it very clearly.
1421
01:55:54.580 --> 01:55:56.360
But I mean, I I would say
1422
01:55:57.620 --> 01:55:59.880
that the the main difference is,
1423
01:56:01.735 --> 01:56:02.474
the way
1424
01:56:03.735 --> 01:56:08.395
Whirlpool is set up is it's set up in a way to try and reduce user error.
1425
01:56:09.400 --> 01:56:18.060
And with the Wasabi way, you can use it in a relatively secure way, but you have to be a very advanced user to do that.
1426
01:56:19.355 --> 01:56:23.295
And and the cool part about Samurai is that they kind of just hold your hand,
1427
01:56:24.795 --> 01:56:28.830
why why you're going through that process. Would you would you agree on that, Telco?
1428
01:56:29.450 --> 01:56:31.390
Yeah. No. A 100%. I mean,
1429
01:56:32.810 --> 01:56:36.190
you know, the what they try to get away with in the beginning,
1430
01:56:36.795 --> 01:56:42.415
or what what was Sabi tried to do different was that they wanted mass outputs to confuse the
1431
01:56:43.035 --> 01:56:43.855
to confuse
1432
01:56:44.450 --> 01:56:46.470
the actual analysis of the
1433
01:56:46.850 --> 01:56:48.070
of the coin join.
1434
01:56:48.530 --> 01:56:53.270
But that doesn't work when it's just a banana peel, right, and it's just peeling.
1435
01:56:54.095 --> 01:56:57.155
I really do recommend everyone going through
1436
01:56:57.535 --> 01:56:58.515
and either reading
1437
01:56:59.215 --> 01:57:00.115
either reading
1438
01:57:01.400 --> 01:57:06.140
6 one zero two's write up Mhmm. Or, or take a look at Ergo's work.
1439
01:57:06.840 --> 01:57:25.080
I know Ergo is part of, like, the Samura team, but when you read it, you you see facts. You know, at at the end of the day, you wanna see facts. And if you don't believe them because you want a unbiased thing, I go back to my previous point of, like, you know, run it yourself and see. Like, run test net or if you wanna put your coins through there, sure.
1440
01:57:26.180 --> 01:57:27.075
You know, just
1441
01:57:27.395 --> 01:57:29.255
try it out and see the outputs,
1442
01:57:30.675 --> 01:57:31.495
and see
1443
01:57:32.195 --> 01:57:36.535
and start breaking it down and try to try to compare and contrast what
1444
01:57:37.190 --> 01:57:43.050
OXT research team is talking about and then understand what why they're wrong or they're right.
1445
01:57:43.945 --> 01:57:49.645
Because really, ultimately, I mean, Bitcoin used to be about don't trust, verify. Right? So, like, that's what we should get back to.
1446
01:57:50.825 --> 01:57:53.100
Other than that, I mean, like, I think we've
1447
01:57:53.720 --> 01:57:54.860
we've beat Whirlpool
1448
01:57:56.120 --> 01:57:56.940
to a pulp.
1449
01:57:57.320 --> 01:57:58.460
It's a
1450
01:57:59.000 --> 01:58:00.220
Okay. So so
1451
01:58:00.885 --> 01:58:04.585
so the freaks might know that I'm very good at Twitter search.
1452
01:58:06.165 --> 01:58:10.105
It's one of my strong suits. When when my grandkids ask me,
1453
01:58:11.210 --> 01:58:12.750
Matt, how did you
1454
01:58:13.210 --> 01:58:14.890
how are you so successful? I'll be like,
1455
01:58:15.770 --> 01:58:18.975
you know, Twitter search. Like, people just have to know what to type in.
1456
01:58:20.175 --> 01:58:22.435
So here, to anyone who's watching,
1457
01:58:23.135 --> 01:58:26.835
this was the Twitter hacker who we found out today got the the
1458
01:58:27.570 --> 01:58:30.790
he got the book thrown at him. He got charged with 3 years in prison,
1459
01:58:31.650 --> 01:58:33.030
which I would just say,
1460
01:58:33.730 --> 01:58:38.844
if if what the Twitter hacker in in the summer did was so bad for our society,
1461
01:58:39.864 --> 01:58:42.764
maybe Twitter should have faced some kind of punishment
1462
01:58:43.225 --> 01:58:44.045
for allowing
1463
01:58:44.900 --> 01:58:52.760
a fucking kid to access their their their closely guarded systems and have admin access to everything they fucking do
1464
01:58:53.235 --> 01:58:55.335
and and do what he did. Right?
1465
01:58:55.715 --> 01:58:59.415
But that being said, this is the Twitter act hackers flow.
1466
01:59:00.035 --> 01:59:02.770
And what happened was he put his Bitcoin through Wasabi.
1467
01:59:03.310 --> 01:59:04.290
He did everything
1468
01:59:05.150 --> 01:59:06.210
security wise,
1469
01:59:06.910 --> 01:59:08.610
and the Internet, he did correctly.
1470
01:59:09.070 --> 01:59:16.555
The Bitcoin scam is what fucked him. What fucked him was he decided that he was gonna try and scam people for Bitcoin on Twitter,
1471
01:59:17.335 --> 01:59:21.400
and he received that Bitcoin, and all of a sudden that Bitcoin became a tracking beacon for let's
1472
01:59:21.880 --> 01:59:26.540
fuck this kid. And he put it through Wasabi. And what did he do after he put it through Wasabi?
1473
01:59:27.080 --> 01:59:29.820
He pressed the select all button that is in Wasabi,
1474
01:59:30.405 --> 01:59:37.145
and he sent that all to the next address. And as you can see in the video, if if you're watching the live video,
1475
01:59:37.450 --> 01:59:44.830
you can see that he just strictly you just take the amount that went into Wasabi and you subtract that
1476
01:59:45.344 --> 01:59:47.605
by by the amount that went out,
1477
01:59:49.185 --> 01:59:56.800
and with with the change combined, and then you have you have his path. And it was very easy to track him through that mix.
1478
01:59:57.100 --> 02:00:01.685
That's what the FBI did, and they threw the book at him. So this is this is what happens Okay.
1479
02:00:05.344 --> 02:00:05.844
Well,
1480
02:00:09.505 --> 02:00:18.440
good software doesn't let you use it wrong, and I'm Okay. Well, good software doesn't let you use it wrong, and I'm not advocating for crime. I don't think he should be.
1481
02:00:19.285 --> 02:00:20.425
I don't think criminals,
1482
02:00:21.285 --> 02:00:36.615
should get away with their crimes, but I think that if people expect privacy from software, they should get privacy from software. And and this is a perfect example of why Wasabi is broken. The Wasabi people know it's broken, and that's why they're trying to create a whole new fucking algorithm instead yeah.
1483
02:00:42.755 --> 02:00:45.630
I I think you hate it. I don't really have yeah, I I think you hit that
1484
02:00:46.090 --> 02:00:48.270
on the hood. I don't really have much.
1485
02:00:48.969 --> 02:00:59.615
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I don't expect you guys to add much to that because that was, that was a little bit brutal. It's a good rant. Okay. I could be credit. So, I would like to go to lightning. So I think lightning is
1486
02:01:00.050 --> 02:01:03.430
probably the best post mix tool that we have available to us.
1487
02:01:04.290 --> 02:01:06.950
And you, samurai, people are against lightning, so
1488
02:01:08.934 --> 02:01:11.915
justify justify your lack of interest in lightning to me.
1489
02:01:12.775 --> 02:01:14.155
I'll add a little tidbit,
1490
02:01:14.730 --> 02:01:21.710
and then I'll let, like, Woah, comment some, and then maybe I'll comment back in because I feel like I talk a lot. But
1491
02:01:24.014 --> 02:01:26.034
I, personally, I think the principle
1492
02:01:26.335 --> 02:01:26.994
of lightning
1493
02:01:27.295 --> 02:01:30.594
is cool. Like, I think it's good. Right? Like, the the concept,
1494
02:01:31.295 --> 02:01:31.795
right,
1495
02:01:32.480 --> 02:01:36.320
is people wanna spend Bitcoin. That is fucking great. Like, that
1496
02:01:37.120 --> 02:01:38.980
I'm all for people spending Bitcoin.
1497
02:01:39.335 --> 02:01:40.395
I don't really care
1498
02:01:40.775 --> 02:01:43.835
whether it's with lightning or whether it's with on chain.
1499
02:01:45.655 --> 02:01:46.715
I think that
1500
02:01:47.735 --> 02:01:48.235
the
1501
02:01:49.020 --> 02:01:50.160
overall, like,
1502
02:01:50.860 --> 02:01:54.480
that lightning is this holy grail of a fix
1503
02:01:54.940 --> 02:01:56.320
is not quite accurate.
1504
02:01:56.905 --> 02:01:57.805
I think that,
1505
02:01:59.625 --> 02:02:11.770
you know, like, is this something we're gonna need in the future? Like, yeah. I mean, maybe. It depends on the there's a lot of factors that it depends on the future, but, you know, there's inherent risk. It's not easy,
1506
02:02:12.230 --> 02:02:13.370
and I think that
1507
02:02:17.095 --> 02:02:17.755
I just
1508
02:02:18.135 --> 02:02:20.475
I I think that we've been like, we've had development
1509
02:02:20.855 --> 02:02:22.155
in lightning for
1510
02:02:22.760 --> 02:02:23.260
what?
1511
02:02:23.719 --> 02:02:24.920
What year is it? 20 7
1512
02:02:25.880 --> 02:02:28.460
2021? 2016, I think. What? 2017
1513
02:02:29.400 --> 02:02:30.940
was the kickoff of Mainnet?
1514
02:02:31.265 --> 02:02:34.245
Am I am I wrong? 16 was the white paper. 16.
1515
02:02:34.705 --> 02:02:36.405
16 was white paper. Right?
1516
02:02:37.265 --> 02:02:40.485
2017 was, like, no shit Mainnet then. Right? Like, right at the new year?
1517
02:02:42.699 --> 02:02:43.199
So
1518
02:02:43.900 --> 02:02:49.599
I I mean, yeah, I I think that, like, we've been in this for a long time and we still see a lot of issues. Right?
1519
02:02:50.585 --> 02:02:53.645
And I don't see a ton of actual usage. Right? Like,
1520
02:02:53.945 --> 02:03:03.289
if it was the the savior that it was supposed to be. Right? Because we gotta think about what lightning actually man, I said this is gonna be short, but it's not.
1521
02:03:03.590 --> 02:03:09.015
Oh, we had to think about what lightning, why it came about. Right? Like, why it it, like,
1522
02:03:09.715 --> 02:03:20.170
kicked off into development and then why it got rushed. In my opinion, I felt like it got rushed into mainnet. It got rushed into, like, this whole, like, adoption, and everyone put it up on this giant pedestal
1523
02:03:20.710 --> 02:03:23.050
immediately. Right? Like, we didn't even see that with Taproot.
1524
02:03:23.585 --> 02:03:28.325
Like, we saw Lightning be put up like this god of software. And
1525
02:03:29.185 --> 02:03:41.705
even right now, right, like, if you look at coin cards or at, like, bit refill, like, you're looking at the bottom of the barrel for, like, of all of their different currencies that they accept, cryptocurrencies they accept,
1526
02:03:42.105 --> 02:03:43.325
it's, like, the least,
1527
02:03:44.665 --> 02:03:46.685
it's the least used, which
1528
02:03:47.145 --> 02:03:53.020
should be, like, worrisome for anybody that's, like, I'm not saying that you're not super bullish. Right?
1529
02:03:53.640 --> 02:03:56.860
Like, you could be super super bullish on, like, the outcome of it.
1530
02:03:57.160 --> 02:03:57.660
But
1531
02:03:58.195 --> 02:04:03.974
are you super bullish on it, like, currently right now? Because I don't see a ton of people using it. I see it as, like, a novelty.
1532
02:04:04.514 --> 02:04:06.295
You know, people like the idea,
1533
02:04:06.780 --> 02:04:07.280
and
1534
02:04:07.740 --> 02:04:08.640
maybe we can,
1535
02:04:09.820 --> 02:04:12.240
you know, maybe you can use some. I find it
1536
02:04:12.700 --> 02:04:14.960
difficult that you need to lock up funds
1537
02:04:15.420 --> 02:04:16.240
in a channel,
1538
02:04:16.625 --> 02:04:18.205
And that from there,
1539
02:04:19.265 --> 02:04:27.420
you know, maybe you can spend it. Maybe you don't you don't know how much, and you never know how much you're actually gonna need until the time that you need it. Right? So
1540
02:04:27.960 --> 02:04:33.635
then you end up having to lock up more than you need to, so on and so forth. I I don't know. I see different issues,
1541
02:04:34.255 --> 02:04:39.715
but it's been a while since I've been in the lightning game. But I don't know. Like, like, what do you have anything to add to lightning?
1542
02:04:42.550 --> 02:04:45.930
I can't say anything bad about lightning, to be honest, because
1543
02:04:46.310 --> 02:04:46.810
I
1544
02:04:47.635 --> 02:04:48.614
I have used it
1545
02:04:48.994 --> 02:04:50.934
myself. I know man likes it, and
1546
02:04:51.235 --> 02:04:52.215
it has a future
1547
02:04:52.755 --> 02:04:57.014
even though it doesn't have a lot of, you know, volume going into it
1548
02:04:57.450 --> 02:04:58.990
compared to other things. But,
1549
02:04:59.770 --> 02:05:11.545
long term, it it it should have some it it should have a future. And I know if I if I talk shit about it, Evan is not gonna buy me of your next new meeting in my secret. We're we're we're all gonna fucking
1550
02:05:12.070 --> 02:05:21.290
throw you to the wolves if you talk shit to the white man. No. No. Lightning Lightning Network is is good. It's I think, you know, it it it could improve, but I think
1551
02:05:22.055 --> 02:05:26.875
the movement in terms of community involvement, a lot of, you know, a lot of wallets out there
1552
02:05:27.495 --> 02:05:31.170
are very, very strong, and a lot of people are just putting a lot of work into it.
1553
02:05:31.810 --> 02:05:36.870
You're You know, I know I know some of them, you don't wanna you don't wanna add it into, you know, into Ronan.
1554
02:05:37.489 --> 02:05:42.125
And, you know, I I you know, I respect that. You know, we don't wanna the reason why maximalist.
1555
02:05:44.105 --> 02:05:46.445
No. I no. Don't worry. Maximalist.
1556
02:05:46.745 --> 02:05:52.480
You you refuse you refuse to understand that Lightning is one of the best
1557
02:05:52.860 --> 02:05:56.880
post mix tools that we have available to us. You go through coin join,
1558
02:05:57.364 --> 02:06:02.985
and you're able to spend off chain and it never goes on chain. Is it fucking massive?
1559
02:06:05.150 --> 02:06:10.530
No. The thing is, you know, it's It's it's it's it's not it doesn't replace CoinJoin. It is it is
1560
02:06:10.830 --> 02:06:18.145
a valuable addition to CoinJoin. This is what, like, the open noms of the world realize. My perspective is we're on a whole different level.
1561
02:06:18.445 --> 02:06:29.960
My perspective is, you know, if if if we were to add it to running Dojo or whatever, you know, I think that if you're going to be running, Lightning Network, that's all you should be running on a on a single board computer. Nothing else.
1562
02:06:30.325 --> 02:06:44.850
Because if you try to run, you know, Lightning Network with, Samurai Dojo, with Menpool, with Spector Yeah. I mean, I don't think you guys I don't think you guys should have lightning implemented. I think people if if if if you're running coinjoin 247,
1563
02:06:46.025 --> 02:06:46.525
then
1564
02:06:46.905 --> 02:06:47.965
that should be
1565
02:06:48.425 --> 02:06:53.245
isolated. And I think if you're running your own lightning node or your own routing node
1566
02:06:53.610 --> 02:06:54.750
247 online,
1567
02:06:55.210 --> 02:06:56.270
that should be isolated.
1568
02:06:56.650 --> 02:07:06.565
It should be isolated. This idea this idea that you're gonna have everything on a single online computer is fucking ridiculous. Well, Matt, that's a bad way. Situation, you should have
1569
02:07:06.945 --> 02:07:07.925
you should have
1570
02:07:08.310 --> 02:07:11.929
everything on a on a dedicated computer. But that being said,
1571
02:07:12.869 --> 02:07:25.955
if you're if you're a Lightning fan and you trust the Ronin devs, like, maybe you should be able to opt in for for Lightning in that respect, you know. You know, you have So if I I I should be able to have 2 Ronin Dojos running, one running
1572
02:07:26.720 --> 02:07:32.660
only CoinJoin and one running Lightning. Right? The only way that if we were to add Lightning Network, I would have to,
1573
02:07:33.360 --> 02:07:35.300
dose Selco with some LSD
1574
02:07:35.985 --> 02:07:38.165
and eventually tie him up in a basement
1575
02:07:38.625 --> 02:07:48.369
for him to agree on it. But if we were to eventually add it, it would be in a way where you couldn't run Samurai Dojo at the same time with Lightning Network.
1576
02:07:48.670 --> 02:07:49.889
That's the thing. Because
1577
02:07:50.270 --> 02:07:50.670
you can't
1578
02:07:51.469 --> 02:07:54.290
like like you said, you have a you gotta have a dedicated
1579
02:07:55.114 --> 02:07:56.974
node that runs Lightning Network,
1580
02:07:57.275 --> 02:08:00.014
a dedicated node that runs Ronin Dojo,
1581
02:08:00.315 --> 02:08:03.454
or my note, whatever, you know, about Samurai Dojo specifically.
1582
02:08:04.220 --> 02:08:28.440
Because if you try to run everything, like, most people just wanna click on everything. They wanna install every application that's available or whatever, you know, Umbro, My Note. And this is one of the problems that they have. You know? Everyone wants to install everything and, you know, they want to add everything in the kitchen sink. Right? I mean, that's a problem because some of these these machines, they can't handle all the all the resources that are being put into it. So it becomes very unstable.
1583
02:08:29.515 --> 02:08:32.895
So if you want to run Lightning Network, set up a node that's specifically
1584
02:08:33.195 --> 02:08:39.100
going to be dedicated for that. If you want to run run-in Dojo, set up a node that's that's gonna be specifically set up for that,
1585
02:08:39.660 --> 02:08:41.360
Not both at the same time.
1586
02:08:42.060 --> 02:08:46.720
But I'll let I'll let I'll let Telco, you know, chime in and, you know, give his opinion. I know he
1587
02:08:48.455 --> 02:08:53.915
he's cursing me out right now. Right? So the one thing I'll be honest. There was there was a moment of weakness
1588
02:08:54.260 --> 02:08:55.640
that I almost implemented,
1589
02:08:56.420 --> 02:08:57.320
implemented Lightning,
1590
02:08:58.900 --> 02:09:03.080
directly into the Dojo stack. Like, I mean, like, into Dojo,
1591
02:09:04.415 --> 02:09:11.795
because we have a fork. Like, if other people don't know that, we are very transparent about it. Like, we fork it based on, like, what we need.
1592
02:09:12.350 --> 02:09:13.570
We maintain with upstream.
1593
02:09:15.710 --> 02:09:32.840
But, Evan from Zeus, who I know you've has been on SIDO Dispatch, He's a New York guy. I know. Shout out to fucking you guys. But, yeah, he was he was trying to help me out. And the the whole principle of why I was, like, thinking about that idea
1594
02:09:33.540 --> 02:09:34.280
was for
1595
02:09:34.820 --> 02:09:35.800
toxic change,
1596
02:09:36.185 --> 02:09:38.045
not so much for Postmates tools.
1597
02:09:38.665 --> 02:09:40.764
I don't know if I necessarily like,
1598
02:09:41.224 --> 02:09:46.739
I get where you're coming from, Matt. Like, I get the idea of, like, you do a coin you you do,
1599
02:09:47.760 --> 02:09:48.260
Whirlpool,
1600
02:09:48.800 --> 02:09:54.784
and then, hey, you're in post mix. Now you do a Kahoots into a lightning channel. Right?
1601
02:09:55.565 --> 02:10:01.400
In theory, like, yeah. Sure. Like, that that could work. Like, I don't see why anyone should not do that. But,
1602
02:10:03.220 --> 02:10:09.545
I mean, other unless you don't trust Lightning. That's up to you. How much funds do you wanna put in the Lightning? But,
1603
02:10:10.165 --> 02:10:14.105
what I was looking at it specifically for is, like, if we could have a way to specifically
1604
02:10:14.725 --> 02:10:17.210
segregate out that toxic change
1605
02:10:19.030 --> 02:10:20.570
from that TX 0,
1606
02:10:20.870 --> 02:10:23.370
toxic change, and then that can go into Lightning.
1607
02:10:24.175 --> 02:10:28.114
My biggest thing that I see with Lightning right now, right, is that
1608
02:10:28.895 --> 02:10:32.435
so much of it are, like, the best wallets that we have.
1609
02:10:32.890 --> 02:10:38.830
They're I mean, they're custodial. Right? Like, custodial wallets are are so much easier, faster,
1610
02:10:40.170 --> 02:10:42.325
that you get preloaded with
1611
02:10:43.285 --> 02:10:44.105
with liquidity.
1612
02:10:45.445 --> 02:10:49.305
Like, if I if I'm, like, not if I'm, like, a brand new user,
1613
02:10:49.840 --> 02:10:58.580
right, brand new user, I'm a plead from, you know, wherever, no coiner, and then I become a big I'm like, hey. I wanna buy Bitcoin. It's almost like, dude, you gotta try lightning.
1614
02:10:59.045 --> 02:11:01.705
Right? You want them to have that instant satisfaction
1615
02:11:02.085 --> 02:11:03.945
of like, hey. This is how it works.
1616
02:11:04.485 --> 02:11:06.985
And then you're not waiting to pay a fee.
1617
02:11:07.420 --> 02:11:08.160
There's not
1618
02:11:10.380 --> 02:11:14.800
you're not, like, waiting for your your liquidity to get confirmed on chain.
1619
02:11:15.455 --> 02:11:19.474
You you just wanna show them, hey, you can pay low fees. Right?
1620
02:11:21.695 --> 02:11:22.195
So
1621
02:11:22.920 --> 02:11:27.820
that's where that's where I see I see a lot a bigger future in lightning with
1622
02:11:28.440 --> 02:11:28.940
custodial
1623
02:11:29.640 --> 02:11:30.140
wallets.
1624
02:11:30.575 --> 02:11:33.955
Well And, again, I I don't wanna I don't wanna ask for nothing.
1625
02:11:34.655 --> 02:11:41.239
We we have there there are wallets like Phoenix and Breeze that are, like, treading the middle ground where
1626
02:11:42.020 --> 02:11:43.640
it's it's easy to access,
1627
02:11:44.900 --> 02:11:46.120
and it's not custodial
1628
02:11:47.185 --> 02:11:48.485
exactly. It's like,
1629
02:11:49.665 --> 02:11:55.285
quasi it's like quasi custodial. It's it it's you're connecting to their their routing nodes, but,
1630
02:11:55.600 --> 02:11:57.380
technically, they don't hold the price.
1631
02:11:58.400 --> 02:12:00.420
So let me answer a question to Jesse.
1632
02:12:01.520 --> 02:12:13.680
He's asking, what if I have a note and I run multiple things on there, Mike. So is that okay? Yeah. This is Mary. Alright. So you gotta be careful. You you your my advice is look at the
1633
02:12:14.800 --> 02:12:18.100
you know, how the system is working. You know? Look at your free memory.
1634
02:12:18.480 --> 02:12:23.995
Look if you're swapping. Depending on how much software you have on there, you wanna make sure that you're not gonna take up too many resources
1635
02:12:24.535 --> 02:12:28.235
because you're going to have, a lot of instability if your CPU
1636
02:12:29.219 --> 02:12:30.199
is is going up,
1637
02:12:30.500 --> 02:12:39.905
especially if your system starts swapping. So you wanna be careful on that. So you want to try to only enable the things that you're actually going to use.
1638
02:12:40.445 --> 02:12:55.744
So for instance, if you're going to be, you know, using something very often, enable that. If you're just installing something just to install in it, don't install it. Make sure it's something you're going to be using, but do not do too much. Samurai Dojo is is is resource intensive.
1639
02:12:56.204 --> 02:13:06.170
You know, lightning network, whatever your shoes on there is is gonna use up a lot of resources. I mean, I I don't even think the issue is the resources. Right? The issue is just basic threat modeling. Like, if you have
1640
02:13:06.630 --> 02:13:09.130
if you have 2 things that are of value,
1641
02:13:09.510 --> 02:13:12.735
if you split them up, then they have to separately attack
1642
02:13:13.114 --> 02:13:26.739
both of those things. If you have them on the same fucking device, then they just have to attack one device, and they get Yeah. You have you have one layer of you you have one layer of entry right there. Right? A very it's a very simple concept. Like, you wanna split up
1643
02:13:28.035 --> 02:13:29.415
your your your
1644
02:13:30.594 --> 02:13:40.200
your your value. Your the the value you have, you wanna split up. You don't want all your value to be in one place. You don't want someone to walk into a home and just have
1645
02:13:40.580 --> 02:13:44.840
all the money just sitting in a single closet. You want it to be in multiple closets
1646
02:13:45.205 --> 02:13:50.425
in different houses. Right? And and that's very true, you know. And and and the thing is, you know, people,
1647
02:13:51.125 --> 02:14:07.335
they they they think setting up a Raspberry Pi, you know, a Rock Pro 60 4 is very, very hard. But it really isn't, you know? It's you have to just have keep an open mind. There's a lot of resources out there. I I eventually, I'm gonna be writing guides on how to set up, you know, these types of devices for yourself.
1648
02:14:07.875 --> 02:14:15.719
But, you have to just, you know, not not think of it as rocket science. You know? These are tiny computers. I know, but they're they're really not that hard to set up.
1649
02:14:16.099 --> 02:14:17.639
So I love you both.
1650
02:14:18.019 --> 02:14:20.760
I think now is a great time to talk about KYC.
1651
02:14:22.635 --> 02:14:28.415
Before we talk about KYC, I just wanna do a quick little video from DISC, and then we'll talk about it.
1652
02:14:30.400 --> 02:14:32.660
There are many places to buy Bitcoin.
1653
02:14:33.360 --> 02:14:35.300
They collect your personal information
1654
02:14:36.240 --> 02:14:38.020
and jeopardize your privacy.
1655
02:14:39.455 --> 02:14:42.275
K y c is the illicit activity.
1656
02:14:44.255 --> 02:14:45.475
This is open source.
1657
02:14:45.935 --> 02:14:48.080
It does not collect user data.
1658
02:14:48.540 --> 02:14:50.240
You keep your private keys.
1659
02:14:50.780 --> 02:14:56.295
Create or take offers to trade peer to peer. And keep your Bitcoin private and secure.
1660
02:15:01.610 --> 02:15:03.070
So why shouldn't users
1661
02:15:03.449 --> 02:15:07.469
that was bisque. Why shouldn't user why should users be concerned about KYC,
1662
02:15:08.090 --> 02:15:08.590
and
1663
02:15:09.815 --> 02:15:10.795
why should they care?
1664
02:15:12.455 --> 02:15:14.554
Is this is a good one. So,
1665
02:15:15.815 --> 02:15:19.630
you know, funny story. So, like, my I have family friends that
1666
02:15:22.410 --> 02:15:24.590
family and friends that are, like,
1667
02:15:24.890 --> 02:15:25.870
well off now.
1668
02:15:26.175 --> 02:15:36.420
A lot of them are older family members and stuff that that have a lot of money. And so, you know, they're now that they see the bull market again, they're getting super excited. Right?
1669
02:15:36.800 --> 02:15:42.535
And, you know, they they see me as someone that can, you know, guide them through the waters.
1670
02:15:42.935 --> 02:15:47.515
I tell them to just listen to TFTC, but they didn't listen. Here we go. Anyways
1671
02:15:48.935 --> 02:15:49.655
anyways, the
1672
02:15:50.480 --> 02:15:56.500
you know, so they always ask. Right? And they're on Coinbase or Pro and they're, you know or Swan or whatever.
1673
02:15:56.880 --> 02:15:59.860
And it's sound like, you know, when we get down to it,
1674
02:16:00.265 --> 02:16:05.165
I I started to talk to him about, hey, like because it kills me a little bit inside
1675
02:16:05.945 --> 02:16:08.525
every time that we talk about KYC because
1676
02:16:09.290 --> 02:16:14.190
it's inherently, like, against everything that I believe. You know? Like, as a person that had been there,
1677
02:16:14.730 --> 02:16:17.790
you know, I would rather someone that learned from my mistakes.
1678
02:16:18.275 --> 02:16:20.455
Right? I would rather someone that
1679
02:16:20.915 --> 02:16:26.615
doesn't just fold to the easiest thing available. And I get that that need that that's a
1680
02:16:27.190 --> 02:16:27.770
an inevitable,
1681
02:16:28.950 --> 02:16:36.490
route that is going to always be in Bitcoin. Like, the easiest path to get Bitcoin is always gonna be there, and that easiest path is always gonna involve compliance.
1682
02:16:37.185 --> 02:16:37.685
Right?
1683
02:16:38.785 --> 02:16:46.165
But as I started to talk to these people that that had all this money and that wanted to buy Bitcoin, and I started to explain some of the different,
1684
02:16:47.950 --> 02:16:50.051
you know, the different risks and the different,
1685
02:16:50.671 --> 02:16:54.795
advantages to buying no KYC. Right? Like, if you buy no KYC
1686
02:16:55.335 --> 02:16:58.075
and you buy it with cash, who knows that you have it?
1687
02:16:58.695 --> 02:16:59.755
And they were like,
1688
02:17:00.295 --> 02:17:01.915
no one? And I was like, exactly.
1689
02:17:02.561 --> 02:17:14.115
Right? So, like, if no one knows that you have it, and then one day you go to sell and you sell it to someone else for cash, who knows that you have it? Or who knows that you made that transaction? They go, no one. Like, exactly.
1690
02:17:14.976 --> 02:17:21.350
Right? Like, that that's the kind of stuff that forward thinking and and not to mention, right, you don't wanna be on the list.
1691
02:17:21.810 --> 02:17:23.430
No one no one in Bitcoin,
1692
02:17:23.970 --> 02:17:29.655
no one in general should wanna be on a list. Right? Like, in America, you could go back to 2,001.
1693
02:17:30.435 --> 02:17:30.935
Right?
1694
02:17:31.395 --> 02:17:36.535
And go back to, like, you don't wanna be on a no fly list. Right? So that's bad. That's a bad day.
1695
02:17:36.980 --> 02:17:46.360
Same thing. Right? Let's move forward. Right? Like, you don't wanna be on a you had to buy your guns and register them. We're gonna kinda small plug into guns and Bitcoin.
1696
02:17:47.016 --> 02:17:52.795
Like, you don't wanna you don't wanna own firearms that are gonna throw you on a list that the government owns.
1697
02:17:53.096 --> 02:17:58.390
Right? Because one day, maybe not right now, the US government's pretty shady when it comes
1698
02:17:58.770 --> 02:18:00.550
to the timing and the,
1699
02:18:01.970 --> 02:18:05.670
and the the longevity. Right? Like, they they take their time
1700
02:18:06.085 --> 02:18:11.225
to to take privacy and to take take things away from you. Right? It's never it's never immediate.
1701
02:18:11.925 --> 02:18:19.640
But So you don't you don't wanna be on a list. So, like, if you're on a KYC list, right, unless you sell this KYC
1702
02:18:20.180 --> 02:18:22.199
this KYC stats back,
1703
02:18:22.556 --> 02:18:32.899
right, you're always you're always there. You're always on the list. You're always gonna be someone that, say, 6102 happens, shut up, 6102 happens,
1704
02:18:33.279 --> 02:18:42.585
and they they should come they gotta come for your Bitcoin. Right? Like I love that. They're, like, they're, like, stealing your Bitcoin. They're stealing your Bitcoin, and as they're stealing your Bitcoin, you're, like, shout out 6102.
1705
02:18:43.524 --> 02:18:44.024
Yeah.
1706
02:18:44.564 --> 02:18:52.690
That's the first thing I'm a do. I'm I swear I'll do it. The reason I ask these questions is for the same it's like I so I asked the same question
1707
02:18:53.311 --> 02:18:55.010
of last week. We had
1708
02:18:55.865 --> 02:18:59.725
lightning we had lightning focused people, and I said, why lightning? Right?
1709
02:19:01.064 --> 02:19:04.524
And I the reason I asked these questions is because we need to
1710
02:19:05.320 --> 02:19:08.140
we we we need to fine tune our messaging.
1711
02:19:09.960 --> 02:19:15.615
This idea that just the compliance pros care about marketing is a ridiculous idea. We will never admit it,
1712
02:19:16.155 --> 02:19:18.415
but we need to have fine tuned,
1713
02:19:19.676 --> 02:19:20.176
messaging
1714
02:19:20.795 --> 02:19:22.096
for our audience.
1715
02:19:22.930 --> 02:19:23.430
And
1716
02:19:24.610 --> 02:19:29.270
with with with KYC, the key is is it's not a Bitcoin thing.
1717
02:19:29.705 --> 02:19:31.165
Our whole world is KYC'd.
1718
02:19:31.865 --> 02:19:32.845
They are literally
1719
02:19:33.865 --> 02:19:37.325
the powers that are be I said they. I know I said they.
1720
02:19:38.229 --> 02:19:39.370
The royal they.
1721
02:19:40.310 --> 02:19:41.529
It it it is
1722
02:19:42.229 --> 02:19:45.370
the the government and the powers that be
1723
02:19:46.605 --> 02:19:51.985
are making sure that everything we do in our lives are identified and cataloged.
1724
02:19:52.365 --> 02:19:53.505
This idea that
1725
02:19:54.160 --> 02:19:55.939
if you go to the mall,
1726
02:19:56.880 --> 02:20:01.345
that person is cataloged into a database somewhere, that person went to the mall.
1727
02:20:01.904 --> 02:20:08.805
This is this is a commonplace thing that is happening across every facet of our society, whether that's you're leaving the country,
1728
02:20:09.185 --> 02:20:11.045
whether that's you're entering a city,
1729
02:20:11.601 --> 02:20:12.340
whether that's,
1730
02:20:13.440 --> 02:20:20.420
you're showing up at a building and and and to go into some random office or some some shit like that,
1731
02:20:21.105 --> 02:20:22.965
or or you're leaving the country.
1732
02:20:23.505 --> 02:20:25.125
All these things are
1733
02:20:26.385 --> 02:20:29.445
cataloged and decided who does what.
1734
02:20:30.570 --> 02:20:33.710
And it creates the situation where we're gonna have databases
1735
02:20:34.490 --> 02:20:35.311
that basically,
1736
02:20:37.056 --> 02:20:41.796
catalog every single action that we do as a free individual, and that
1737
02:20:43.216 --> 02:20:45.716
basically takes away our our complete freedom.
1738
02:20:46.910 --> 02:20:53.811
And and with Bitcoin, it's to the extreme, because with Bitcoin, if we don't take any actions after after the fact,
1739
02:20:54.774 --> 02:20:59.995
our transactions can be counted indefinitely. So once once they have us in the system
1740
02:21:00.375 --> 02:21:02.074
and then we move into Bitcoin,
1741
02:21:02.761 --> 02:21:08.301
they can follow us through all of our Bitcoin transactions, and they can follow anyone we transact with,
1742
02:21:08.841 --> 02:21:10.141
by proxy. So,
1743
02:21:10.995 --> 02:21:12.615
if I pay if I decide
1744
02:21:13.075 --> 02:21:16.535
to go into Bitcoin Black Cab, I fly over to London,
1745
02:21:17.155 --> 02:21:18.775
they see I bought a ticket,
1746
02:21:19.341 --> 02:21:23.040
I'm flying to London. They know I'm going to Europe. I get to Europe.
1747
02:21:23.500 --> 02:21:32.665
I call a taxi. It's the only taxi that accepts Bitcoin, and then all of a sudden, Bitcoin black cab, they know he picked me up at that time, you know, and I paid him Bitcoin.
1748
02:21:34.645 --> 02:21:35.145
So
1749
02:21:35.641 --> 02:21:43.020
so all those things together, like, it becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly, in my opinion, that if you care about freedom,
1750
02:21:45.905 --> 02:21:48.485
you care about privacy. And you have to
1751
02:21:48.865 --> 02:21:51.205
push back against these these
1752
02:21:51.585 --> 02:21:59.550
requests for private information for every single fucking thing we do. If we don't if we that's the first step. If we don't push back against that,
1753
02:22:00.195 --> 02:22:04.295
it becomes very difficult for us to have privacy in any other aspect of our life.
1754
02:22:08.311 --> 02:22:11.290
I mean, I mean, absolutely. I mean, it goes back to,
1755
02:22:12.230 --> 02:22:12.730
the,
1756
02:22:13.671 --> 02:22:14.891
you know, using
1757
02:22:15.735 --> 02:22:22.075
non Googled phones. Right? Like, using those things and disabling all this up. Like, do everything that you can.
1758
02:22:22.510 --> 02:22:25.649
Right? Taking small steps, but do everything you can
1759
02:22:26.430 --> 02:22:29.890
to take back your freedom, right, to take back your privacy because
1760
02:22:31.024 --> 02:22:37.925
because that stuff is gonna slowly increase. Right? Like like I said, governments aren't stupid. Right? Especially in America,
1761
02:22:38.260 --> 02:22:40.600
right, where we're a bunch of hard headed assholes
1762
02:22:42.500 --> 02:22:45.000
that love our freedom. They know not to
1763
02:22:45.726 --> 02:22:52.065
just up and take everyone's guns. They know not to just up and, you know, restrict everyone's freedoms
1764
02:22:52.525 --> 02:22:53.025
overnight.
1765
02:22:53.561 --> 02:22:58.620
Right? I'm I'm gonna ignore the the lockdowns before I get, like, shit on for the lockdowns.
1766
02:22:59.880 --> 02:23:07.585
You know, they they know not to do that because they know that it's too inherent in the American values to to fight that kind of
1767
02:23:08.045 --> 02:23:08.545
oppression.
1768
02:23:09.005 --> 02:23:11.425
So what what do they do? Right? It's small
1769
02:23:11.880 --> 02:23:12.540
incremental attacks
1770
02:23:13.399 --> 02:23:14.779
over time. And
1771
02:23:15.080 --> 02:23:17.960
the the scariest part about all of that is that most of it
1772
02:23:18.840 --> 02:23:19.580
most of
1773
02:23:20.115 --> 02:23:24.854
those freedom attacks, most of that data that's getting pulled doesn't come from the government.
1774
02:23:25.395 --> 02:23:27.415
It's Twitter. It's Facebook.
1775
02:23:29.029 --> 02:23:29.529
It's
1776
02:23:30.149 --> 02:23:34.890
all of the and that's, like, I guess, kinda why some people, like, prefer Telegram. Right? Like, it's
1777
02:23:35.565 --> 02:23:44.306
it's based out of Russia. Right? So some people, like, I trust Russia more than I do trust the American government with my information or American companies with my information.
1778
02:23:44.860 --> 02:23:45.520
But, ultimately,
1779
02:23:46.460 --> 02:23:49.120
it goes back to that, like, you know, diverters
1780
02:23:50.220 --> 02:23:53.360
mentioned it, like, use the tools. Right? Like, use matrix, use
1781
02:23:54.335 --> 02:23:58.995
Mastodon or whatever it is. They're not gonna it's never gonna have the same
1782
02:23:59.695 --> 02:24:00.835
level of following.
1783
02:24:01.410 --> 02:24:01.910
Right?
1784
02:24:03.970 --> 02:24:08.470
But, you know, you have to understand the risk that you're taking. You have to understand
1785
02:24:08.930 --> 02:24:09.430
that
1786
02:24:10.465 --> 02:24:15.524
you're you're giving up something, and so that goes with KYC and it goes with Bitcoin.
1787
02:24:16.145 --> 02:24:17.845
Are you okay with
1788
02:24:18.305 --> 02:24:19.364
buying your Bitcoin
1789
02:24:20.240 --> 02:24:21.779
and giving up and associating
1790
02:24:22.240 --> 02:24:23.060
your identity
1791
02:24:23.439 --> 02:24:24.500
with that UTXO?
1792
02:24:25.359 --> 02:24:25.859
Right?
1793
02:24:26.319 --> 02:24:26.819
Now
1794
02:24:27.175 --> 02:24:34.795
that UTXO or that amount that you bought, say, on Coinbase or whatever, that is gonna stay in their logs for however long.
1795
02:24:35.175 --> 02:24:35.675
But
1796
02:24:36.101 --> 02:24:37.320
let's, like
1797
02:24:37.700 --> 02:24:53.770
you know, you could say, hey. I'm gonna coin join. I'm gonna move the coins. It's gonna break my, you know, break my deterministic lengths, and they're not gonna know how I spend afterwards. And you're like, yeah. That that is 100% true. They're not gonna know how you spend afterwards, but they're gonna know that you had x amount.
1798
02:24:54.149 --> 02:24:57.930
You know, they're gonna know that you bought x amount on on that exchange.
1799
02:24:58.310 --> 02:24:59.210
You know? So
1800
02:24:59.695 --> 02:25:02.355
when you buy no KYC from day 1
1801
02:25:03.535 --> 02:25:07.475
or whenever you buy no KYC, number 1, you should keep those funds separate.
1802
02:25:07.910 --> 02:25:12.570
You always keep your KYC versus no KYC separated. And when you do that,
1803
02:25:13.030 --> 02:25:13.850
you are now,
1804
02:25:14.790 --> 02:25:17.655
you're you're one step ahead in the privacy game.
1805
02:25:18.215 --> 02:25:24.075
Right? Like, should you sell coin join? Absolutely. Should you still do use your Postmates tools? Absolutely.
1806
02:25:24.615 --> 02:25:25.115
But
1807
02:25:25.801 --> 02:25:29.820
what like, you by you not associating an identity to
1808
02:25:30.280 --> 02:25:32.780
to the amount of coin that you have that UTXO,
1809
02:25:33.436 --> 02:25:38.415
you've now taken us a a greater step forward. You're in an even bigger battle,
1810
02:25:38.795 --> 02:25:43.610
and you just wanna even battle by not starting out giving up your identity.
1811
02:25:44.070 --> 02:25:48.011
So, like, that that to me, like, that should be the most paramount thing.
1812
02:25:48.391 --> 02:25:48.891
And,
1813
02:25:49.915 --> 02:25:50.575
you know,
1814
02:25:51.115 --> 02:25:51.615
shilling
1815
02:25:53.675 --> 02:25:54.335
you know,
1816
02:25:55.035 --> 02:25:58.490
it's a painful thing. Like, I I I feel like you're in a bad spot, Matt.
1817
02:25:58.971 --> 02:26:07.790
Like, haven't like, I think that, like, you and Lavera have a lot of respect for well, like, I think you and Lavera and there's a lot of people who are in this boat, right, that, like, understand
1818
02:26:08.295 --> 02:26:09.335
the benefits in that
1819
02:26:10.215 --> 02:26:13.114
in the advantage to having no KYC coin.
1820
02:26:13.495 --> 02:26:13.995
Right?
1821
02:26:14.375 --> 02:26:14.875
But
1822
02:26:15.630 --> 02:26:17.650
there's also the argument to say,
1823
02:26:18.590 --> 02:26:22.530
hey. Like, we need more people in Bitcoin in general. I would rather
1824
02:26:23.735 --> 02:26:25.675
sacrifice I mean their KYC.
1825
02:26:26.375 --> 02:26:34.800
I'm not I'm not saying you're saying you wanna sacrifice their KYC, but I would I would I would I would love I love Stefan, but I feel like throwing him in the same boat is a little bit,
1826
02:26:37.740 --> 02:26:45.984
Oh, do it. Do it. You won't. No. I know. I'm I won't. I won't. I I love Stefan. I I my my point is my point is
1827
02:26:47.399 --> 02:26:49.180
is is I I don't think
1828
02:26:49.640 --> 02:26:50.119
that I'm
1829
02:26:50.879 --> 02:26:51.379
I
1830
02:26:51.880 --> 02:26:55.325
if I if I thought that I was throwing people into the KYC
1831
02:26:55.785 --> 02:26:57.405
fucking juggernaut without
1832
02:26:57.865 --> 02:27:00.640
explaining the risk to them, then I wouldn't do what I do.
1833
02:27:01.359 --> 02:27:02.180
That's fair.
1834
02:27:02.560 --> 02:27:11.185
And and it's not and, like, I don't I wouldn't even knock you if you didn't. And here's why. I I I prefer I prefer if a user bought KYC Bitcoin over nothing.
1835
02:27:11.965 --> 02:27:21.650
Exactly. And that's that's exactly and that's that's my to pump my own back. That's for them. That's for the user. I actually think the user's better off owning Bitcoin than not owning Bitcoin.
1836
02:27:22.430 --> 02:27:27.970
Exactly. And and, like, I'm guilty of this too. Right? Like, going back to my story, like, these people that want,
1837
02:27:28.305 --> 02:27:29.984
like, advice and and and,
1838
02:27:31.265 --> 02:27:32.805
on Bitcoin. Right? Like,
1839
02:27:34.064 --> 02:27:36.005
ultimately, like, they wanna buy Bitcoin,
1840
02:27:36.311 --> 02:27:38.410
and they wanna buy Bitcoin the easiest way.
1841
02:27:39.351 --> 02:27:43.131
Most of them most normal people don't care about KYC. They don't think twice.
1842
02:27:43.671 --> 02:27:49.965
They'll but they do care, dude. They do because Some do. Like like, so so so so recently,
1843
02:27:50.345 --> 02:27:51.725
what I've been doing is
1844
02:27:54.280 --> 02:27:58.700
is is people ask me, okay. Like, I wanna like, I'm finally ready to buy. Right?
1845
02:28:01.365 --> 02:28:07.306
I don't even bought like, to be like, I'm just gonna admit like, to be quite honest, like, I'm not gonna tell
1846
02:28:08.005 --> 02:28:08.745
some rando
1847
02:28:09.760 --> 02:28:18.420
to use Bisq or use Huddl Huddl or use no KYC. Like, I just tell them I tell them to go to Swan. Right? So I say go to Swan Bitcoin.
1848
02:28:21.215 --> 02:28:26.275
And and and that way, you're just dollar cross averaging into Bitcoin. There's no shit coins, no whatever.
1849
02:28:26.601 --> 02:28:28.940
And they hit the KYC wall. Right?
1850
02:28:29.480 --> 02:28:30.940
And they go, Matt,
1851
02:28:32.360 --> 02:28:33.900
this KYC is horrible.
1852
02:28:34.445 --> 02:28:35.346
It is ridiculous,
1853
02:28:35.726 --> 02:28:37.825
like, what I need to what I require.
1854
02:28:38.285 --> 02:28:39.346
And I actually
1855
02:28:41.245 --> 02:28:43.585
think that's, like, a great educational experience.
1856
02:28:44.880 --> 02:28:50.340
Right? Because, like Yeah. The reason the KYC exists is because they wanna use their bank account.
1857
02:28:50.880 --> 02:28:56.725
Like, it has nothing to do with Bitcoin. It has everything to do with the the the traditional financial system.
1858
02:28:57.185 --> 02:28:59.685
Them them hitting that wall and going,
1859
02:28:59.985 --> 02:29:00.965
oh my god.
1860
02:29:01.721 --> 02:29:09.580
Like, the government's requiring me to give all this fucking information to this random ass dollar cost averaging company called Swan Bitcoin
1861
02:29:12.205 --> 02:29:13.745
is is is blasphemous.
1862
02:29:14.125 --> 02:29:15.745
That's a ridiculous concept.
1863
02:29:16.285 --> 02:29:17.425
Like, that realization
1864
02:29:18.180 --> 02:29:20.199
almost sells them on Bitcoin itself.
1865
02:29:22.659 --> 02:29:27.000
Yeah. No. I I I definitely agree. I think that everyone goes through a journey,
1866
02:29:28.925 --> 02:29:30.625
and, you know, I mean, that that's how,
1867
02:29:31.965 --> 02:29:34.226
you know, the majority of Bitcoiners
1868
02:29:34.686 --> 02:29:37.980
started. I mean, like, if you gotta think if you were, I guess,
1869
02:29:38.680 --> 02:29:39.980
in the class of 2015,
1870
02:29:40.760 --> 02:29:43.500
right, or 2014, 2015. Right? Like,
1871
02:29:44.725 --> 02:29:45.465
you were
1872
02:29:46.165 --> 02:29:53.630
alright. Or 2016, I guess, would be better. You know, you you were just like, yeah. Let me get Bitcoin. Right? And then you learn, and then you go through the pains.
1873
02:29:55.310 --> 02:29:57.970
And I and I've talked about this with a lot of people. It's like,
1874
02:29:58.510 --> 02:30:12.450
it's a people a lot of people need to learn through, like, getting burned. Right? Like, if you try to explain to people and and, like, ultimately, like, they kinda get it, but they don't truly understand when we say not your keys, not your Bitcoin.
1875
02:30:13.070 --> 02:30:15.250
Like, a lot of people don't really
1876
02:30:15.790 --> 02:30:16.290
understand
1877
02:30:16.910 --> 02:30:17.410
why,
1878
02:30:18.186 --> 02:30:22.525
like, had like, owning it makes sense. So you have to put it in a way it makes sense to them. But,
1879
02:30:23.226 --> 02:30:25.325
you know, the same thing. It it's a journey,
1880
02:30:26.266 --> 02:30:41.075
and that's why I don't fight it, you know, when people are like, I just wanna get Bitcoin right now. I want the easiest way to get it at this price before the price goes up. I wanna get it immediately and da da da. And and I get it. You know? Like, I don't normally fight them.
1881
02:30:42.335 --> 02:30:51.930
I have had some people that were like, holy shit. Like, I wanna buy, you know, 50 k of Bitcoin right now. And I'm like, I can't supply that. But,
1882
02:30:52.950 --> 02:30:54.170
It's only 1 Bitcoin.
1883
02:30:54.615 --> 02:30:59.675
It's less than 1. It's, like, 29. This was before it was 1 Bitcoin. 90,000,000 sats, bro.
1884
02:31:00.295 --> 02:31:03.020
Yeah. Before that was before. That was before it was,
1885
02:31:03.500 --> 02:31:04.060
you know,
1886
02:31:05.579 --> 02:31:07.760
But either way, you know, it's like
1887
02:31:08.859 --> 02:31:14.955
because they they understood understood the benefit. Right? And not everyone gets it, and it and it takes time,
1888
02:31:15.335 --> 02:31:20.475
and it takes time for people to to go down the rabbit hole. And that's part of our
1889
02:31:20.775 --> 02:31:22.155
I don't wanna say duty
1890
02:31:22.570 --> 02:31:31.311
because I got out of that. I I remember being all about, like, educating people and teaching all the normies that I work with or whoever I came in contact with.
1891
02:31:31.985 --> 02:31:38.725
It becomes a big hassle. You know, it becomes a big and I and I give respect to you, Matt, and, like, other people that do this where it's like,
1892
02:31:39.160 --> 02:31:47.580
man, like, especially, like, you when you go from a bull market to a bear market. And then all the people that you're, like, no shit friends with are like, you know, what the fuck?
1893
02:31:48.115 --> 02:31:55.104
And you just have to be, like, go back to the fundamentals of Bitcoin, and if they got into it assets.
1894
02:31:55.790 --> 02:32:00.770
Yeah. Like, and if they got into it for for, you know, the wrong reason,
1895
02:32:01.149 --> 02:32:03.465
then they're just sitting there disgruntled and pissed,
1896
02:32:03.865 --> 02:32:05.125
You know? But,
1897
02:32:05.705 --> 02:32:06.205
ultimately,
1898
02:32:07.225 --> 02:32:08.445
you know, the like, if
1899
02:32:09.385 --> 02:32:10.845
if they're gonna buy KYC,
1900
02:32:11.305 --> 02:32:14.220
like, they're gonna buy KYC, you know, and
1901
02:32:14.920 --> 02:32:17.580
our job is to make sure oh god. Hold on.
1902
02:32:19.775 --> 02:32:25.555
Guys, if you guys if you find can we just Hey. Jake, can you say hi? I can. Say hi, Spider Man.
1903
02:32:25.855 --> 02:32:26.675
Say hi.
1904
02:32:27.230 --> 02:32:30.770
No? You don't hit me? Hey, Spider Man. Okay. What's up, Spider Man?
1905
02:32:31.230 --> 02:32:34.050
Sorry. I'm gonna beat up. My bad. Hold on. I love it.
1906
02:32:34.426 --> 02:32:35.886
Listen. If you buy KYC,
1907
02:32:36.665 --> 02:32:42.285
be prepared to pay taxes. There's just no way out of it. Unless you're gonna freaking, you know, take a risk,
1908
02:32:43.229 --> 02:32:46.370
you're gonna have to pay taxes. And that's the way out of it.
1909
02:32:47.310 --> 02:32:50.609
That is. I mean, hey. You're gonna buy KYC.
1910
02:32:51.575 --> 02:32:56.955
You're gonna have to deal with the consequences. Right? Yeah. I mean, we had we had the former
1911
02:32:57.335 --> 02:32:59.915
the former Fed chair. It was almost
1912
02:33:01.341 --> 02:33:04.320
the clip that we started this episode with, but she wasn't.
1913
02:33:05.101 --> 02:33:06.080
And she said
1914
02:33:06.540 --> 02:33:09.280
the main thing that the US dollar has over cryptocurrencies
1915
02:33:09.900 --> 02:33:10.400
is
1916
02:33:10.955 --> 02:33:16.975
that the US dollar doesn't have capital gains taxes when you spend it. And I thought twofold, I thought, okay,
1917
02:33:17.435 --> 02:33:19.695
you created those taxes. And second fold,
1918
02:33:20.200 --> 02:33:24.220
we only pay capital gains taxes because our money increases in value.
1919
02:33:24.770 --> 02:33:25.270
So
1920
02:33:27.614 --> 02:33:34.354
that's great that you have a money that just loses money loses value every fucking year. Of course, you don't have to pay fucking taxes on it.
1921
02:33:35.910 --> 02:33:39.370
Time out. Time out. Time out. Can I just say how fucking stupid that is?
1922
02:33:39.750 --> 02:33:40.250
Like,
1923
02:33:40.870 --> 02:33:43.370
if you spend Bitcoin as a currency,
1924
02:33:43.976 --> 02:33:47.676
you get tax capital gains. Can we just say how how, like, absolutely
1925
02:33:48.375 --> 02:33:48.875
stupid?
1926
02:33:49.176 --> 02:33:53.590
Like, that is the dumbest thing to do with that. That it's stupid, but I also
1927
02:33:54.210 --> 02:33:58.069
I know I'm running a a live show here where anything can be said,
1928
02:33:58.609 --> 02:34:02.435
but these are not the type of discussions I want to have on the show.
1929
02:34:03.135 --> 02:34:03.455
So,
1930
02:34:04.735 --> 02:34:09.475
because this is all this is all this is all forever, and I do not want this to be
1931
02:34:09.950 --> 02:34:14.770
forever. So I will not we will not discuss we will not discuss this topic,
1932
02:34:15.229 --> 02:34:16.770
and we will continue on.
1933
02:34:17.614 --> 02:34:19.795
Do you guys have any opinion on Taproot?
1934
02:34:20.255 --> 02:34:21.074
Either view.
1935
02:34:24.130 --> 02:34:26.470
Like, well, you can take it if if you want.
1936
02:34:28.210 --> 02:34:29.350
I I'm more about,
1937
02:34:29.810 --> 02:34:31.490
a lot equals true. So
1938
02:34:32.365 --> 02:34:44.640
What does that mean? Law equals true. See what's Sensor or doubt. Fuck you, 6102. I would like, you come out you come out publicly and have a conversation about taxes. 6102. Why you leave Telegram? That's all I wanna know.
1939
02:34:46.700 --> 02:34:50.960
Let let's let's let's hear, let's what do you what do you think
1940
02:34:51.375 --> 02:34:54.915
about Taproot? Do you have you guys either either of you guys have opinions on Taproot?
1941
02:34:55.695 --> 02:34:58.274
I don't have that much of opinion on it. I think that
1942
02:34:58.730 --> 02:35:02.190
it shouldn't become it it shouldn't come to a big mess where
1943
02:35:03.370 --> 02:35:04.910
everyone has to basically
1944
02:35:06.115 --> 02:35:08.775
commit to something that might not come true.
1945
02:35:09.395 --> 02:35:10.375
That's my opinion.
1946
02:35:10.755 --> 02:35:16.851
It's just you know, it it seems that there is a a lot of dre sauce on it. People are, you know, trying to
1947
02:35:18.270 --> 02:35:22.210
basically commit to it and there there all these requirements, and
1948
02:35:24.365 --> 02:35:26.065
I think it should just go through.
1949
02:35:28.766 --> 02:35:30.306
What do you what do you think, Zelco?
1950
02:35:30.700 --> 02:35:32.160
You have an opinion on Taproot?
1951
02:35:33.580 --> 02:35:34.320
I mean,
1952
02:35:35.180 --> 02:35:38.225
I know that the the majority of the benefit comes
1953
02:35:39.265 --> 02:35:41.045
to MultiSig users. Right?
1954
02:35:42.784 --> 02:35:45.125
I I know it's not the only one, and
1955
02:35:46.740 --> 02:35:48.680
I would like to hear your opinion on it.
1956
02:35:49.940 --> 02:35:51.240
You know, I'm not,
1957
02:35:53.035 --> 02:35:54.495
you know, I'm not crazy,
1958
02:35:55.274 --> 02:35:57.295
you know, for or against anything.
1959
02:35:58.154 --> 02:35:59.215
If it's a benefit
1960
02:35:59.755 --> 02:36:00.255
to,
1961
02:36:00.880 --> 02:36:04.020
you know, to overall Bitcoin, then, yeah, like, let's do it. But,
1962
02:36:05.439 --> 02:36:13.895
because I I feel like in in Bitcoin in general, right, like, to try to get I guess it's a benefit in general. Right? Like We want Taproot. I think we want Taproot.
1963
02:36:14.195 --> 02:36:15.035
I think Yeah.
1964
02:36:15.475 --> 02:36:20.470
Our our boys over at Samurai want Taproot, but they're just so broken that they just don't wanna participate.
1965
02:36:21.250 --> 02:36:27.430
I think they I think, like, T Dev I think T Dev wants Taproot. Like, I think I think it benefits Samurai.
1966
02:36:28.285 --> 02:36:32.065
I'm not I won't speak for T Dev. I'm sure I'm sure, like
1967
02:36:33.165 --> 02:36:34.125
I'm sure that if,
1968
02:36:35.245 --> 02:36:35.745
if
1969
02:36:36.619 --> 02:36:37.119
Taproot,
1970
02:36:37.979 --> 02:36:48.104
if Taproot's beneficial to samurai, like, they're already testing. Like, there's no doubt. But but my point is they're still broken. My point is they're so broken that they're just, like, I just don't wanna
1971
02:36:48.405 --> 02:36:50.185
I won't believe it until I see it.
1972
02:36:50.564 --> 02:36:55.529
That's fair. I mean Which is, like, fine. Think but what was the last major in event
1973
02:36:55.909 --> 02:36:59.369
in, like, innovation in Bitcoin, right, with Segway?
1974
02:36:59.670 --> 02:37:03.255
Yo. If if I had to rely if if I had to rely on Bitcoin upgrades, I would be the most broken motherfucker ever. Like,
1975
02:37:04.854 --> 02:37:14.670
motherfucker ever. Like But what about the people that that think about, you know, Bitcoin by default is not private. Right? That rule is gonna ask some kind of, you know, a bit of privacy into it. Right?
1976
02:37:15.130 --> 02:37:36.010
Imagine imagine imagine being someone who cared about Bitcoin privacy and you just have, like, all the compliance bros just, like, constantly just fucking And they're gonna be they're gonna be, oh my god. Smacking you in the balls over and over again, and, like, that's what t dev and fucking samurai had to deal with. And and it is what it is. But my point is is that they both
1977
02:37:36.390 --> 02:37:42.415
whether or not they will admit it, they both want Taproot to happen, and we're gonna make Taproot happen. It's gonna happen.
1978
02:37:43.275 --> 02:37:52.000
It might be the last thing that happens, but it will happen, and, it'll be a massive improvement for Bitcoin. I agree with that. I think there's a big chance that it will happen.
1979
02:37:52.700 --> 02:38:01.305
It's gonna happen. There's there's there's pretty much no inertia against it. So I think it'll happen, and I think it'll be very good for Bitcoin privacy.
1980
02:38:02.005 --> 02:38:04.505
But but to be absolutely clear, like,
1981
02:38:05.640 --> 02:38:07.260
Bitcoin privacy sucks.
1982
02:38:07.640 --> 02:38:11.899
So it's it's it's easy to have a massive improvement for Bitcoin privacy.
1983
02:38:12.615 --> 02:38:13.115
Yeah.
1984
02:38:13.895 --> 02:38:14.555
I mean,
1985
02:38:17.495 --> 02:38:25.120
from from what I from what I understand and I'm I'm not gonna sit here and tell all your users that I'm, like, super in-depth on on Taproot, and that's mostly because
1986
02:38:25.900 --> 02:38:31.415
I I don't know. It it always seemed hyped that it'll happen, and we've been hearing about it for so long.
1987
02:38:32.355 --> 02:38:32.855
But,
1988
02:38:33.636 --> 02:38:43.920
I mean, it like I said, if it's a net like you said, if it's a net negative or a net positive rather so if it's a net positive for Bitcoin privacy, like, you you will see it, and we'll see it in Samurais.
1989
02:38:45.635 --> 02:38:49.175
And then, yeah, we'll we'll make all the changes. And,
1990
02:38:50.035 --> 02:38:53.875
ultimately, like, anything that's beneficial for our privacy, we need to start taking
1991
02:38:54.390 --> 02:38:56.329
It blows my mind that we've been
1992
02:38:56.630 --> 02:38:58.649
in this game for this long,
1993
02:38:59.590 --> 02:39:04.556
and we don't see things Like, we see massive changes in
1994
02:39:05.016 --> 02:39:05.516
in,
1995
02:39:07.096 --> 02:39:07.835
you know,
1996
02:39:08.295 --> 02:39:08.795
benefits
1997
02:39:09.260 --> 02:39:12.800
that happen from the wallet level. Like, why why in the world
1998
02:39:13.180 --> 02:39:14.239
are there things that
1999
02:39:14.540 --> 02:39:17.920
wallets are doing that are net benefit to Bitcoin
2000
02:39:18.255 --> 02:39:20.435
that are not implemented at the core level
2001
02:39:21.055 --> 02:39:23.155
is beyond me. You know, like
2002
02:39:23.615 --> 02:39:26.354
like, we talked about bit 47. What we're about, bro.
2003
02:39:26.655 --> 02:39:27.955
I mean, it's more difficult.
2004
02:39:29.760 --> 02:39:30.660
Right? Obviously.
2005
02:39:31.360 --> 02:39:35.700
If if Yeah. I mean, I and like I said, it's probably a a positive. Right?
2006
02:39:36.165 --> 02:39:41.944
Being harder to change the core code is probably better. Right? Like, it's, more stable.
2007
02:39:42.484 --> 02:39:42.885
It's,
2008
02:39:43.604 --> 02:39:44.745
less risk adverse.
2009
02:39:45.061 --> 02:39:47.080
That's a value prop. Stable
2010
02:39:47.381 --> 02:39:48.520
a stable core,
2011
02:39:49.620 --> 02:39:51.240
core repo, but, like,
2012
02:39:52.101 --> 02:39:52.601
like,
2013
02:39:53.141 --> 02:39:54.280
Bitcoin as a whole
2014
02:39:55.056 --> 02:39:58.976
I I don't know. I'm I'm kinda torn torn on it. I think,
2015
02:39:59.535 --> 02:40:04.230
you know, I think all the best changes happen, like, from what I've seen over the past,
2016
02:40:04.631 --> 02:40:09.450
you know, 4 years, the best changes happen at the wallet level. I mean, no one asked
2017
02:40:09.990 --> 02:40:12.891
no no one asked Core if they could do like, once,
2018
02:40:13.426 --> 02:40:18.086
I guess, I I was about to say lightning, but I guess I couldn't use that as an example. No. Lightning's a perfect example.
2019
02:40:18.785 --> 02:40:30.825
Once we have segue, we're able segue. We need a segue. We need segue. Yeah. I know. It's not not an example. We need a massive we need a massive war in order to to enable lightning. Yes. That's fair.
2020
02:40:33.685 --> 02:40:44.189
Yeah. But, like, here we are. We're at the same spot. Hey. This is a big change at core. It's a huge change. You know? I mean, it's pretty big. That route is a pretty big change at the core level.
2021
02:40:47.205 --> 02:40:51.945
Yeah. Well, we'll see. I'm excited for it. If it, if it happens, let's, let's,
2022
02:40:53.189 --> 02:40:54.970
you know, let's make it happen. But,
2023
02:40:57.430 --> 02:41:01.770
yeah, overall, I mean, I think the core devs like, core devs really need to
2024
02:41:03.495 --> 02:41:07.015
be be really thinking about the privacy side. Like, I I really
2025
02:41:07.975 --> 02:41:11.115
it blows my mind that, like, we've seen hardware wallet
2026
02:41:11.980 --> 02:41:14.800
improvements to Bitcoin core before we've seen
2027
02:41:15.180 --> 02:41:15.680
privacy
2028
02:41:16.300 --> 02:41:16.800
improvements.
2029
02:41:17.180 --> 02:41:17.680
Like,
2030
02:41:17.980 --> 02:41:23.664
that doesn't even make sense. Like, there are bips that are out there that would improve Bitcoin privacy
2031
02:41:24.604 --> 02:41:25.104
across
2032
02:41:25.484 --> 02:41:27.744
across all wallets from a core level
2033
02:41:28.204 --> 02:41:29.425
that we could implement,
2034
02:41:29.740 --> 02:41:35.280
but we choose to do other like, add other things that are not nearly as important.
2035
02:41:37.145 --> 02:41:43.885
Now I don't have to say hardware wallets aren't important, but, like, hardware wallet interface from the core wallet, like like,
2036
02:41:44.265 --> 02:41:53.840
it's good. I'm not I know you're a hardware wallet guy, but, like, honestly, I would rather I think privacy is more important in my personal opinion. Yeah. Well, we're not fucking competing.
2037
02:41:55.285 --> 02:41:56.105
We're competing.
2038
02:41:56.485 --> 02:42:00.025
We're not competing. We're not we're we're showing up, bro.
2039
02:42:02.006 --> 02:42:08.710
I'm I mean, I don't know. I'm 100% in the same boat as Ergo with, being a samurai Maxi, but,
2040
02:42:09.330 --> 02:42:12.949
I mean, don't don't get me wrong. I have a very, very, very small amount
2041
02:42:13.295 --> 02:42:14.994
on card cold card,
2042
02:42:15.534 --> 02:42:20.835
and I'm impressed. I have a very large amount both in samurai Right. Cold card. Okay?
2043
02:42:21.390 --> 02:42:26.689
So It's it's a very small amount, but it's there. It's mostly there so I can test Spectre.
2044
02:42:27.229 --> 02:42:28.529
So, you know, whatever.
2045
02:42:29.375 --> 02:42:32.415
The the point is is Matt's money is where his mouth is.
2046
02:42:33.295 --> 02:42:39.620
Yeah. No. I give you Matt. I give you credit, Matt. You're not we're not Yeah. We're not completely it is don't believe it. It is a partnership.
2047
02:42:40.000 --> 02:42:41.460
It it Matt, what is what is
2048
02:42:42.319 --> 02:42:43.620
your thoughts on bit 47,
2049
02:42:44.000 --> 02:42:50.825
reusable payment codes? It makes no sense. It makes and the problem with bit 47 is that only Samurais supports it.
2050
02:42:51.205 --> 02:43:03.670
That's that's that's the I I I mean, that that's that's the major issue. It's a major issue if you're trying to accept donations. If you're trying to accept donations and you need the person to not only have an Android phone, but they have to have this specific fucking app
2051
02:43:04.795 --> 02:43:08.814
to donate to you is an issue. That's a that's a fucking massive issue.
2052
02:43:09.274 --> 02:43:17.220
Yeah. I agree with that. Not Tamara's fault. That is it's ridiculous that no one else offers BIP 46. This is very ridiculous. To the
2053
02:43:17.760 --> 02:43:21.380
point where it's it's it's pretty fucking funny because,
2054
02:43:24.615 --> 02:43:27.355
I'm Matt Odell, so I have I have some
2055
02:43:27.815 --> 02:43:29.355
some ability to,
2056
02:43:30.141 --> 02:43:32.000
people ask me to be an adviser,
2057
02:43:32.700 --> 02:43:34.880
but, like, I just say all this shit publicly,
2058
02:43:35.900 --> 02:43:46.740
you know, publicly. Add BIP 47. Like, what do you what do you think I'm telling the people I have buy? I'm just like, add BIP 47. Like, can you add BIP 47? Can you add It's unbelievable, Odessa.
2059
02:43:47.440 --> 02:43:51.860
I literally everything I say on the podcast is what I tell people privately
2060
02:43:52.240 --> 02:43:52.740
when,
2061
02:43:54.245 --> 02:44:00.505
they they ask me to be an adviser. Like, I literally just I just repeat exactly what I say publicly.
2062
02:44:00.811 --> 02:44:01.551
But it's
2063
02:44:01.931 --> 02:44:07.391
amazing that none of these wallets it's amazing that none of these wallets offer this feature where,
2064
02:44:08.145 --> 02:44:13.605
you know, you can literally just have increase your privacy tenfold just by using bit 47.
2065
02:44:14.226 --> 02:44:16.565
Yeah. I mean, you know People are really amazing.
2066
02:44:18.500 --> 02:44:23.080
People are I mean, yeah, I just talked about this on a on a different podcast. Like, the
2067
02:44:23.940 --> 02:44:26.680
the fact that I mean, we we talked about licensing
2068
02:44:27.075 --> 02:44:27.895
and the fact
2069
02:44:28.275 --> 02:44:32.455
that Samura is open source and anybody can utilize the tools that they have,
2070
02:44:32.915 --> 02:44:36.055
but we don't see the adoption across any other wallets.
2071
02:44:36.470 --> 02:44:42.489
Like, we don't see Postmixed tools. We don't see added adding Whirlpool. Like, they can add Whirlpool.
2072
02:44:43.029 --> 02:44:44.729
Right? They can absolutely
2073
02:44:45.575 --> 02:44:46.455
add Whirlpool to
2074
02:44:47.814 --> 02:44:49.515
sorry. The banner was funny.
2075
02:44:49.895 --> 02:44:51.995
There's a very can add Whirlpool to
2076
02:44:53.420 --> 02:45:04.665
to any other wallet and just jump into the same liquidity pool. They can add the post mix tools. They can do all those things. And in fact, Samara wallet wants those people to do that because it's a net benefit to everyone.
2077
02:45:05.765 --> 02:45:08.265
And we don't see it because of
2078
02:45:08.670 --> 02:45:09.170
ego
2079
02:45:09.550 --> 02:45:10.770
and politics.
2080
02:45:11.390 --> 02:45:16.529
Like, that's not where we should be in Bitcoin. That's not where we should be at this time and space in Bitcoin,
2081
02:45:17.045 --> 02:45:18.425
and we should see people
2082
02:45:18.885 --> 02:45:20.745
trying to add the best tools
2083
02:45:21.205 --> 02:45:35.910
to the to the at the wallet level since core dev's going back to core dev. Since they don't wanna add these things, that's totally cool. But the wallets, the wallet developers should be adding those things. Like, why are we not there? Why are we not doing that? Why are why are exchanges not adding BIP 47
2084
02:45:36.435 --> 02:45:40.534
so that they can just send it to, you know, to that person's BIP,
2085
02:45:40.994 --> 02:45:41.895
to their fucking
2086
02:45:42.274 --> 02:45:43.814
BIP address. Right? Like,
2087
02:45:44.311 --> 02:45:51.370
you never need a a new address. You never need to send to the same address. You just send to the same bit thing. It it makes perfect sense.
2088
02:45:56.575 --> 02:45:57.314
It's ridiculous.
2089
02:45:58.415 --> 02:46:01.795
It makes it makes me fucking live it. I'm angry, freaks.
2090
02:46:02.410 --> 02:46:03.630
Angry angry Matt.
2091
02:46:07.050 --> 02:46:13.505
Okay. He's all kinds. All kinds. Yeah. We we got we gotta we gotta finish this up. But before we finish this up,
2092
02:46:14.285 --> 02:46:17.186
I just want are you guys celebrating Saint Patty's tomorrow?
2093
02:46:18.590 --> 02:46:19.970
It's, like, my favorite holiday.
2094
02:46:20.590 --> 02:46:22.450
I love it. Green beer. Green beer.
2095
02:46:24.430 --> 02:46:28.006
I'm not going to say if I'm Irish or not, but I definitely always celebrate
2096
02:46:28.785 --> 02:46:29.846
Saint Patty's Day.
2097
02:46:31.985 --> 02:46:33.365
I I I agree.
2098
02:46:34.226 --> 02:46:37.090
Everyone, regardless of nationality, should,
2099
02:46:37.890 --> 02:46:39.430
celebrate Saint Patty's Day,
2100
02:46:40.050 --> 02:46:42.470
as should everyone add BIV 47.
2101
02:46:44.450 --> 02:46:45.830
I don't really have,
2102
02:46:47.175 --> 02:46:52.555
anything to bring us together. I mean, I I'm glad that both of you guys agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever,
2103
02:46:53.175 --> 02:46:55.354
which is an important aspect of joining us.
2104
02:46:57.010 --> 02:46:58.150
So that's important.
2105
02:46:59.410 --> 02:47:00.550
I I I guess
2106
02:47:01.090 --> 02:47:07.484
one thing that I want everyone I mean, I assume neither of you guys have opinions on Liquid because you haven't used it. Right?
2107
02:47:10.061 --> 02:47:16.160
I mean, I have an like, I have a biased opinion on it based on not using it, but
2108
02:47:16.461 --> 02:47:17.681
I can give you my
2109
02:47:18.141 --> 02:47:23.575
my, you know, not using an opinion on the way. Haven't used it, you have no opinion.
2110
02:47:24.194 --> 02:47:36.900
Okay. Well, then that's fair. Yeah. You should use it. I think I think privacy focused big corners would love liquid, and I think No. That there we we need to have, like, a situation here. We have to have to make this happen. We're gonna make this happen.
2111
02:47:37.824 --> 02:47:41.364
Yeah. We'll we'll have to talk about that in the future because,
2112
02:47:42.864 --> 02:48:04.500
may maybe maybe in Miami or something, we can you can show. To Miami? Oh, so that's a good exam so so he's coming, but not he's not coming. We got him in the same way. Yo. But I'm like, well, like, well, you're gonna join us you're gonna join us in Miami for the open source workshop. I'm gonna have Ronin Dojo here. Gonna come. Me and Gareira from Ronin Doja team are gonna be there. Okay. So Guero Moneta,
2113
02:48:05.120 --> 02:48:10.660
I love that dude. I met him at Bitbuck Boom. He's gonna come with like, woah to Bitcoin Miami.
2114
02:48:11.335 --> 02:48:15.274
All the freaks should join us. Use code humble, all caps.
2115
02:48:15.734 --> 02:48:19.994
They did rug pull me, but we still have 15% off, which is more than their,
2116
02:48:20.819 --> 02:48:23.720
10% off, which they're offering to the general plebs.
2117
02:48:24.260 --> 02:48:27.720
So our plebs get an additional 5% off,
2118
02:48:28.085 --> 02:48:32.745
and I make 0 money off of this again. I, you know, I I just do it for you guys.
2119
02:48:34.404 --> 02:48:38.351
There's a good chance that maybe this conference just ends up in a complete clusterfuck.
2120
02:48:38.811 --> 02:48:44.155
In that regard, I will just take the fucking l, and I will just shove the sword right through my heart,
2121
02:48:44.875 --> 02:48:46.815
and I will regret that that happened.
2122
02:48:47.275 --> 02:48:52.895
But my goal is to make the biggest party ever, and then that's what I think is going to fucking happen.
2123
02:48:54.080 --> 02:48:57.300
That being said, so we have no Saint Patty's Day celebration.
2124
02:48:58.240 --> 02:48:59.940
Twitter is censoring us
2125
02:49:00.375 --> 02:49:09.435
probably because, like, Woah, post a bunch of titties, and they want to censor me based off of that. You guys both agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever.
2126
02:49:09.750 --> 02:49:11.530
You have no opinion on liquid.
2127
02:49:12.390 --> 02:49:14.330
All the freaks are gonna use code humble.
2128
02:49:15.030 --> 02:49:16.729
Win solo is great.
2129
02:49:17.255 --> 02:49:25.835
Guns and Bitcoin Guns and Bitcoin. That's something we had to cover before we leave. Guns and Bitcoin is a conference that's gonna be happening in Austin,
2130
02:49:26.511 --> 02:49:27.490
April what?
2131
02:49:28.591 --> 02:49:29.091
9th.
2132
02:49:29.710 --> 02:49:31.330
April 9th through what? 10th?
2133
02:49:31.950 --> 02:49:32.770
The 11th.
2134
02:49:33.365 --> 02:49:35.145
April 9th through 11th, gunsandbitcoin.com.
2135
02:49:36.165 --> 02:49:39.145
I have it for the people who are watching the video, gunsandbitcoin.com.
2136
02:49:41.140 --> 02:49:46.840
So it's not If you value Bitcoin privacy and your second amendment rights, go to Guns and Bitcoins.
2137
02:49:47.220 --> 02:49:58.060
Most of the samurai crew will be there. It's gonna be a fucking show. It'll be a good fucking time. If you stay there a little bit longer, you get to stay for a bit devs in Austin, which is gonna be fucking dope as fuck.
2138
02:49:58.939 --> 02:50:00.399
And they also have,
2139
02:50:02.220 --> 02:50:08.035
you University of Austin is also going to, have a conference esque thing for Bitcoin.
2140
02:50:08.734 --> 02:50:11.234
And Quinsolo is in the comments. Quinsolo.comquinsolo
2141
02:50:15.181 --> 02:50:17.681
dotcom. Great customized Bitcoin stuff.
2142
02:50:18.460 --> 02:50:28.175
I love both of you guys. Thank you for joining. We're gonna have you back on pretty soon. Do you have any last comments, before we we hit the freaks with a a beautiful sign off?
2143
02:50:28.875 --> 02:50:29.375
Yeah.
2144
02:50:29.915 --> 02:50:38.870
I just wanna say we're about to have a run-in to do a 1.9 out, that I'll give most of credit to, like, what has been crushing it.
2145
02:50:39.570 --> 02:50:42.775
We're gonna have a lot of new features, a lot of cool stuff, and then,
2146
02:50:43.555 --> 02:50:45.895
we'll be shipping out some
2147
02:50:46.675 --> 02:50:48.695
full nodes coming out, some
2148
02:50:49.270 --> 02:50:53.370
custom cases, something that most I mean, I we've been showing it on Twitter, but
2149
02:50:53.910 --> 02:50:57.931
something unlike anything that you guys have been seeing in the in the space.
2150
02:50:58.285 --> 02:51:01.585
So some new designs, some new stuff going on, and,
2151
02:51:02.205 --> 02:51:03.985
you know, the goal is to,
2152
02:51:04.445 --> 02:51:07.505
you know, bring bring privacy to everybody in an easy manner.
2153
02:51:08.239 --> 02:51:08.739
So
2154
02:51:09.279 --> 02:51:12.340
shout out to to Laquo and the rest of our team because they've been
2155
02:51:12.720 --> 02:51:15.220
carrying carrying the load for me.
2156
02:51:18.966 --> 02:51:24.485
Like, well, you can go. Yeah. I I just have some notes from from other people that we're talking about. So,
2157
02:51:25.370 --> 02:51:32.510
video for Lenox Raven said, are there ways to spend taxes change? I will say talk to Bitcoin in QA. He has a lot of resources on that.
2158
02:51:33.595 --> 02:51:38.175
A true Twitter said, I don't want to have a stupid Raspberry Pi on my desk to have a note running.
2159
02:51:38.555 --> 02:51:50.479
Why can't I have software that can spin up the software and and virtual private server? Samurai Dojo can run on x86 by default. So vanilla samurai Dojo, you can run it on x86. So you don't have to wait for Ronan Dojo.
2160
02:51:51.715 --> 02:51:55.495
Truth Twitter said, what are best practices of spinning out of postmates?
2161
02:51:57.875 --> 02:51:59.814
Make every spin a coin joint.
2162
02:52:00.900 --> 02:52:01.400
So,
2163
02:52:01.940 --> 02:52:05.160
you know, please ask See Lightning Network if you're gonna
2164
02:52:05.780 --> 02:52:11.025
add lightning. If we add lightning on Golden Dojo, you'll see lightning. Don't worry. And
2165
02:52:12.445 --> 02:52:16.145
and somebody asked, Jenna, are open tights washer dryer safe?
2166
02:52:16.605 --> 02:52:20.380
You have to use Clorox bleach, and it will heat safe.
2167
02:52:21.320 --> 02:52:25.900
And I love the last one the last one, 1031 s is like, while still drinking?
2168
02:52:26.335 --> 02:52:27.635
Yes. Yes.
2169
02:52:28.095 --> 02:52:31.154
I I love that you answered all those questions because he knows
2170
02:52:31.694 --> 02:52:36.930
he knows the truth of where I stand on on any of the lightning implementations.
2171
02:52:37.310 --> 02:52:40.930
But I love you both. I love you both. Thank you for joining us.
2172
02:52:41.710 --> 02:52:43.090
This was fucking fantastic.
2173
02:52:43.726 --> 02:52:46.385
Bitcoin is gonna rule the world. Thank you guys for,
2174
02:52:47.245 --> 02:52:50.306
stepping up and running families. Like, that's fucking awesome.
2175
02:52:51.561 --> 02:52:55.900
I look forward to seeing you both in Bitcoin Miami for for Bitcoin 2021,
2176
02:52:57.480 --> 02:53:01.421
June 4th 5th. Use code humble for 15% off.
2177
02:53:02.265 --> 02:53:04.604
Thank you, Freaks, for joining us live.
2178
02:53:05.305 --> 02:53:08.445
Thank you, Freaks, for joining us not live in the podcast.
2179
02:53:10.131 --> 02:53:13.910
This is what it's about. We're gonna fucking win. There's a 1000000 people.
2180
02:53:14.370 --> 02:53:17.830
There's billions of people who have no fucking idea
2181
02:53:18.205 --> 02:53:27.745
what the fuck is going on, but we realize what's going on. That is fucking ridiculous. Like, this it blows my mind every day, but here we are together. I love you all. I'll see
2182
02:53:28.190 --> 02:53:31.490
you on Thursday for a rabbit hole recap. I'll see you next Tuesday
2183
02:53:31.870 --> 02:53:50.399
for the next Citadel Dispatch. We have a fucking crazy lineup for Citadel Dispatch next week. I'm never set up ahead of time, but this time, I was set up with the Ronin Dojo guys because I love them, and we were prepared ahead of time. And next week, I'm set up with Lightning Gaming. We're gonna do, like, a bunch of lightning shit. It's gonna be all about gaming and and
2184
02:53:50.859 --> 02:53:52.239
and killing people and
2185
02:53:53.516 --> 02:54:00.440
and and making stats for it, and it's gonna be a it's gonna be a lot of fun. So join us next week, but also join us for our HR on Thursday. Love you all.
2186
02:54:34.915 --> 02:54:36.295
To level to happen.
2187
02:54:43.270 --> 02:54:44.330
Never feel happy.
2188
02:58:28.360 --> 02:58:32.460
Let's, let's make them feel happy, freaks. I love you all.
2189
02:58:33.025 --> 02:58:38.005
I'll see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap. Look forward to seeing you next Tuesday
2190
02:58:39.025 --> 02:58:40.565
for Bitcoin Tuesday
2191
02:58:41.360 --> 02:58:42.900
instead of that dispatch
2192
02:58:43.440 --> 02:58:44.420
episode 14.
2193
02:58:45.040 --> 02:58:46.979
I love you all. Have a great weekend.
2194
02:58:47.280 --> 02:58:49.140
Stay humble. Stack stats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:45 PM
Duration: 10732.826
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.060
2
00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:11.625
over the weekend? Obviously, we've come back now a bit. I don't know if you we were described we did discussing whether we call that a correction. Is 10% a correction in Bitcoin land?
3
00:00:12.084 --> 00:00:16.425
4
00:00:17.500 --> 00:00:20.160
I guess, is within the one standard one standard deviation,
5
00:00:20.780 --> 00:00:22.320
up and down move these days.
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Listen. You know, the stimulus checks are coming. People are excited about that. A lot of the stimulus checks are going to young people who wanna buy Bitcoin.
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But more importantly from that,
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in the last 3 months, we've had this secular shift where Bitcoin has become an asset. It's not maybe, it's not, it might be. It's now an asset class.
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Cryptocurrency is an asset class. Every bank is moving in. Every tech company is moving in, and all portfolios are starting to move in. And so if you're not long, you're short, And that's just what you see on every dip. There are institutional buyers lined up to buy this thing.
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Then you maybe one bad story, one nervous,
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you know, moment, and everyone stops themselves back out. And so, you know, from Friday afternoon, we're roughly a percent from where we were.
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And so if you're a normal market, you come in Monday morning, you roll up your sleeves, and you're like, okay. Nothing's changed.
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Bitcoin goes 247.
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And so for the Bitcoiners, it was a big weekend.
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This is Citadel Dispatch
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episode 13,
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the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software
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streamed every Tuesday
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at 21 100 UTC.
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Yes. I said 21 100 UTC.
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Last week, that was 22100
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UTC, but because of this ridiculous daylight savings time, it has switched in the meantime. I do like that better.
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It is broadcast through Twitch, YouTube, and Twitter. Thank you for joining us.
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To to the freaks that are here live as always,
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you make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is,
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and then it will also be posted to our podcast feed,
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onto Telegram and onto Keybase, where you can download every episode in full
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without ads.
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So
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with that said,
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I'm Matt O'Dell. I'm here with Like Woah. I'm here with
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BTC Zelco.
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We're gonna be talking Bitcoin privacy. Before I get there, the clip in the beginning of you joining us on the podcast feed was our boy, Michael
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Novogratz,
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Novo of Galaxy,
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Galaxy Digital.
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Yes. He's a little bit of a shit corner, but he's joined with Andrew Ross Sorkin,
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of CNBC
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who is consistently deflated about the rising price of Bitcoin.
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Just kind of funny just seeing,
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this idea of of the stimulus checks of just sending money directly to people,
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being talked about on mainstream financial media
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in a way that it's just a foregone conclusion that they're gonna take the checks, and they're gonna put it right into Bitcoin. What a lot of people don't realize is,
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in countries in other countries, including Canada, they've been sending them stimulus checks this whole time,
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and those people are most likely just putting them right into Bitcoin.
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Anyway, guys,
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it's been a crazy week at Bitcoin, and I'm excited to be here
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with both BTC,
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Zelco, and LikeWoah.
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They are most well known
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for their work with the Ronin Dojo project.
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The Ronin Dojo project is a privacy focused project,
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that is focused on the
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full node stack of Samura1 Wallet.
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You can find them at ronendojo.io.
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With that said, I'd like to introduce both of our guests. Let's start with BTC Zelco. Zelco, how's it going over there?
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It's, it's another good day. I mean, I can't complain. It's funny seeing, some mainstream people finally acknowledge
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that, you know, Bitcoin's a thing. So cheers to that as always.
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browser extension that disables all kinds of scripts, so I had to reload it. You know? But I'm glad to be here. Looking forward to having a chat with both of you guys, and let's do this.
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So with all that said,
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I guess a great place to start
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is
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why should people care
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about
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Bitcoin privacy? And we will start with Selco.
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thing that makes it different, right, is
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it's a
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ledger that's contained of all transactions. Right? So,
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versus cash, which is private, anonymous,
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no one can track what you do and what you know, like, how you spend it. Right?
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So,
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you know, if we're trying to get back to the to the main goal of what Bitcoin was supposed to be published in, you know, the white papers,
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you know, we need to find a way to operate
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in a more private way. And so, you know, if you're not thinking about that, like, you know, of course, there's people that you wanna hold until until the moon. Right? At some point, you're gonna wanna spend. Like, at some point, you're gonna wanna cash out and buy your Tesla or,
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you know, buy your your fucking house or your boat, whatever it is. Right? But
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if you can't do it privately, you're just gonna get screwed. So
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let let's figure that out, and let's figure it out so when people do wanna spend their money however they wanna spend their money, Right? Let's fucking figure that out now.
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or or they they they do realize, but
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on places like Twitter where where Nuance is difficult,
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we tend to see people fall into these 2 camps,
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where you have,
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hardliners on both sides. I will never spend my Bitcoin. We have Ray Euro in the comments. I don't wanna spend
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And then you have the other side who's like, Bitcoin, the number will never go up,
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and it's not a good investment. It's a speculative investment. Bitcoin is meant to be spent, and they're on the exact opposite side.
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Really, the nuance is somewhere in the middle. Right? Like, good money should be able to be spent or saved at will with no permission required.
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And with that being said,
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you know, if you can't spend something without permission
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in the future,
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because it's
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easily tracked, and as a result, you can be punished for any kind of spending you do after the fact,
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then it's not truly censorship resistant in my opinion. So you need to have both.
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The value prop of Bitcoin relies on both. It relies on it on an increasing in value, in my opinion, and it relies on the fact that you can spend it at will,
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without anyone punishing you for your spending.
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Would you agree with that? Would you agree with that, Silco?
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then,
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you know, like, what make what makes Bitcoin different
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if other than just being, like, an expensive, like, PayPal or Venmo,
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if you go to try it or
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Cash App, I'll throw that one out there for you. But the if I can't if I can't send my money to whoever I want whenever I want,
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like, the then what's the point? Like, what what is it actually solving? You know, I I'm all forward number. I don't think anyone in the Bitcoin space is upset when the number goes up.
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Like, I can't meet like, and trust me. I'm with enough people
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that bash on, on number 12 memes. But,
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at the end of the day,
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everyone here is happy.
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You know.
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But, you know, at what point and it was kind of the one of the things that I like to talk about and think about is, like, you know, at what point are we willing to, like, trade,
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compliance,
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you know, with,
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you know, just for the number to go up. Like But is that a straw man?
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It is a straw man, but, like, I mean, it's something to think about though. Right? Like, what,
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you know, what's what's a line in the sand?
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You know, what what's and everyone's line in the sand is different. Right? But that's something that each Bitcoiner should think about. You know, you should be thinking about I mean,
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not to cut you off, Zelco, but first of all, I mean, but both, both Zelco and Laika become good friends of mine. Laika is part of the New York City Bitcoin community,
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so he's he's one of the Bitcoiners that I know in person very well,
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which continues a routine of this show where I bring on friends, and I feel comfortable interrupting them. So apologies, Elko, but I did wanna jump in here. Go ahead. Before I get to that, I just wanted to really quick shout out, quinsolo.com.
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We did, like, last week when we had Rockstar and Suheb on, we did a a random giveaway when when me and Rockstar were drunk, and I guess he just kind of opted in Quinn solo to give, like, a dope ass flask that was that was, engraved,
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or it's, like, labeled. He, like,
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he does, like, this really nice
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design on top of on top of leather.
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He actually had sent me a flask previously unrelated. So this is not the content or anything, but he actually did follow through on it, and Rad Vladdy won that giveaway of guessing the price. He won by 55¢
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with his guess of
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$55,000, 555.55¢.
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So just to put that all in perspective,
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you know, people think Bitcoin crashed. We're basically at the same exact price as we were last
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So just shout out to Quincello. I thought I might have had to buy that flash, so I appreciate,
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the guys over there stepping in and actually doing it.
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super dope dude. And,
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you guys should definitely check out his stuff. I mean, he's he's
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it's awesome. I don't know. I like when Bitcoin is actually, like, try to make things that they enjoy and that they wanna give back to the community. So,
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because I I don't have a home, so I just put it on their fridge.
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And they prob they have no idea what it is. They just they're like these are cool little ninjas.
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So, anyway, sorry for derailing that. I just wanted to make sure I gave him a shout out because I did appreciate him honoring it after the fact even though I'm pretty sure Rockstar just, like, kind of threw him into there.
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So I so just to get back to what you said, I mean, I I think it's a false dichotomy. I think it doesn't matter. It's not a question of whether or not someone's going to throw away their principles or number go up.
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I think number go up relies on being able to spend privately.
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And I think
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whether someone is willing to give away their principles or not is a is a separate subject.
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If we if we end up in a situation where you can't spend Bitcoin privately, number will stop going up.
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Okay.
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Would you agree with that?
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right, in theory.
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But,
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I mean, like, Bitcoin needs to be spent. If you don't spend Bitcoin, it, like, it doesn't the number can't go up. Right? The the liquidity buys. It's not censorship resistant anymore.
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Exactly. You know? But I think Bitcoins that have been around understand that concept of censorship resistance. You know? And and I meet more people now. Like, anytime you're in a bull run, right, you get all the people that if they know that you know about Bitcoin and they wanna find out about it, talk about it, and the only thing they care about is that initial investment. And and, like, that's cool.
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Part of me dies inside, you know, because I I give them the pitch on privacy and, you know, and,
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censorship resistance
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and decentralization,
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all the fun stuff. But at the end of the day, like
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and it kinda goes I've talked about this with a lot of people. It's like, how do you pitch Bitcoin? Right? If you're pitching it on, like, hey. Hold this, and then you're gonna have more money in the end. Right? That's what they're gonna do until that number doesn't until we hit the end of the bear the bull market, and then we get our big pull backwards,
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and then they get upset. Right? And then they sell because they have weak hands because they they're not bought in, you know, and that's, I mean, I guess that's our job, mostly your job, Matt.
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But our job is to get to get them to understand the why. Like, why Bitcoin? Like, it's not just a stock, you know, and trying to get people out of that mindset of like, oh, this is this is an investment tool, and this is this. It's like, no. Like, this is money. Like, this is, like,
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like, life changing shit that we can actually,
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you know, use in the future. You know, there are people in other countries, and that's why it's really cool. Like, the samurai community that's in,
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Spanish speaking countries is massive.
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And I think that's awesome because they need it. Right? Like, they need censorship resistance. They need privacy.
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Yeah. And so, like, in it, you know, maybe in, like, countries like America where, you know, it's not really people aren't thinking about it. They don't know. It's more subversive
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of how
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how we're getting, like, spied on and how censorship can happen. You know, it's a it might be a slow,
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you know, slow drip,
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but, you know, we're seeing it. And, you know, the same thing happens whether it's with guns or whether it's with,
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you know, with Bitcoin. But, like,
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we we need to be conscious of, like, that fact that Bitcoin is about being able to spend it. You know? And that's why, like, yeah, I'm not a big lightning guy, but, like, I I see the value of it. Right? Like, if it works
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if it works and everything's great, you know, like, it's meant as a tool so that you can spend,
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that's awesome. I wanna spend my Bitcoin. I wanna be able to put it back into the economy.
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Right? That circular economy is what Bitcoin needs to thrive.
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Holding on to your Bitcoin till the end of your life does no one any good.
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I cosign your message a 100%.
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Very excited.
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I'm very excited. I'm very proud of the fact that we have a large amount of Latin American freaks.
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I expect there to be a very strong Latin American presence on this show, specifically, so they'll dispatch.
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We are gonna unpack your lightning comment in the future. I do already have that on my scratch pad. I think it's kind of funny that the 2 biggest community,
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the big 2 biggest subcommunities
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of Bitcoin that are focused on spending in a relatively private matter,
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tend to not
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intermix well.
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And I I do think Lightning is underrated as a post mix tool,
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and I think both Lightning people and
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CoinJoin people,
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I don't know. There's just not that much overlap. We're gonna talk about that. And then one thing before I pull in, like, woah here, I just wanna make clear,
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you did mention
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you gave me a token,
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mention of Cash App when you mentioned all the evil centralized payment platforms.
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You're like you're like Venmo, PayPal, and I'll give it to you, Cash App.
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of Rapid Whole Recap, but they're not a sponsor still of dispatch.
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We have no sponsors on this show, and in fact, I do tend to,
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when I'm feeling a little bit buzzed in the middle of the episode, throw in a a quick free bisque chill.
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And and and to be clear, anyone who's watching the video as they know if they're they're a return freak,
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we have the Coinbase Pro price on top, the evil empire, and then on bottom, we actually have the BISK ticker,
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which right now is showing a massive
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24,000,000
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Sats worth of volume compared to the 76 100 Bitcoin worth of volume on Coinbase.
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But we do highlight it here. Like, woah.
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Do you believe that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever?
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mostly for my children.
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I I'm the kind of person that, you know, like, so I like to spend it too. Everybody needs spend it. We have, you know, we got the huddle game. You know, everybody wants to hold it forever. Right? They don't wanna spend it. Eventually, you're not gonna need to spend it because you can take out loans based on it. Right?
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But for me, it's I wanna hold it for, you know, generational wealth. I want my children's children to
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enjoy it later on when I'm gone. Because
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for me to realize it, they're gonna realize it, not me. I'm not gonna be around for you know, until it gets to that pump that everybody's gonna be like, holy shit. You know, Bitcoin is at 5,000,000.
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So to me, I'm gonna hold that bitch, and I'm just gonna keep holding it tight.
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you have
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children yet. I mean, I I think Like Woah is our our family man here.
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Like Woah, I'm I'm curious, you know, how do you
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did you view Bitcoin? Do you think you view Bitcoin differently from us from us,
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you know, not fathers yet?
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What's that perspective?
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you know, you guys should think about having kids because, I mean, this is what we're meant to do. We're meant to procreate. Right?
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I know a lot of people say, oh, you know, it's too many children, too many people in the world, you know. No. Fuck that. You know? Just
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need to
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how are you gonna live forever? Right?
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You're gonna clone yourself. You're gonna pass on your DNA. That's that's how you're gonna become immortal.
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So to me, I think that children are not just only a blessing,
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they bring your purpose in life. And, you know,
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they're gonna be holding my seats in the end. So
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that's the way I see it.
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But, you know, it's very hard for a lot of people. Everybody's, you know, too worried about, you know, their careers. You know, they're thinking, you know, it's not enough time. It's not the right time. You know?
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You know, we're too young. We're too young. Just fucking have kids already. That's it.
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Impressive, dude.
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But in terms of, you know, the, the Spanish community, the Latin community,
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they're very, very much aware of, you know,
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the the censorship resistant of Bitcoin. And I've been seeing a lot a lot of activity in the Spanish community, especially in the samurai community. They're pretty big right now. And,
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once we release, Ronin Dojo 1.9, I'm going to actually be creating a fork
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that's going to have a full translation into Spanish for the Spanish community to enjoy.
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So that way, it's coming up shortly after the release.
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That's awesome. Out there that, you know, that speaks Spanish and doesn't really understand English, we're gonna have a Spanish version of Ronin Dojo.
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They can transact, you know, peer to peer. They don't have to go through a third party. You know, it's it's it cannot be, confiscated by their government. You know, they cannot be censored. So it's it's it's very much something that they want to start using. And I and I see see this, you know, happening in other countries where, you know, governments are, you know, just having control of people's capitals.
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And Bitcoin just gives people back control of their capital. And this is something
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that people in America don't understand so much because, you know, over here,
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it's not happening so much as it's happening in other countries.
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Right? Where people's, you know, capital gets confiscated or, you know, it gets their their money gets, you know, inflated and it becomes worthless.
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So I've seen I've seen a lot of this in in South America. A lot of people in Colombia. A lot of people in Venezuela.
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I see a lot of people in in Chile. It's just all over South America and Central America right now is is the Bitcoin, you know, word-of-mouth is going around.
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Oh, and just just real quick before I'll you carry on with the
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the Spanish community idea, I just wanted to say that I also am a father, father of 2.
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So me and, like, Will actually both had daughters Gotcha. Within, like, 2 weeks of each other.
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We call them little Ronan babies,
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but, well, shout out to
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yeah, I I also think about it as a future.
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So
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You,
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Yeah. I I I
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you you have you have good OPSEC in that regard. I didn't I did not realize you were a father.
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A lot of respect there. Let's unpack just really quickly. I mean, because I don't think there's enough discussion about this period in the Bitcoin space.
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You know, I don't have a wife yet. We are getting married this year. She's she's my fiance currently.
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But, I mean, I think the ladies of Bitcoin,
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or
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well, we have lots of ladies of Bitcoin, but but the ladies of of
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of of the Bitcoiners that we know,
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they're they're, like, they're leverage long Bitcoin. They're, like, I in some ways, they're more Bitcoin than I am, you know, because, like, I can imagine you decide that you're gonna have kids with someone like me or, like, like, someone like like Lowe or someone like you, Zelco. Like, how how does like, that that that concept, like, you're you're a 100% going you're you're going fucking a 100 x long on Bitcoin,
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marrying and having kids with the Bitcoiner.
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Your fiancee has to be all in. Right?
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It it depends on when they found you. Right? Like, me and my wife have been together pre Bitcoin. So pre Bitcoin oh, I mean,
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no. Not pre Bitcoin as a whole, you know, but pre Bitcoin
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me finding out about Bitcoin. So,
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and her dad was the one that turned me onto it. So
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I think it depends.
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And, my wife is I mean, she's, like, part of our team now. You know, she's helping us out with the Ronin side. Like, she's helping us out with, you know, building cases and, you know, putting nodes together, and
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I'm teaching her to do QA as we speak. So, like,
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yeah, she's
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she's awesome. She's all in now,
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but it wasn't always the case. It was always it it depended. You know?
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It's kinda hard. It's hard for any normal person to really
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grasp Bitcoin and understand
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and understand, like, the value and understand, like, that this isn't going to 0 tomorrow. You know what I mean? And I think My my lady survived 2 bear markets before I proposed to her.
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See, that's that's a win.
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So many people, you know, their their girlfriends or fiances left them at the bear market, you know, but, you know, they're calling them now.
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So so,
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like, what what's your plan here like? Well,
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you know, I I I there's there's been amazing,
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you know, you guys know and the freaks know that I've been talking about Bitcoin privacy for 2 years now, at least publicly very hard,
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longer than that really, to be honest.
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And and and the the main people that pick up what I'm putting down is the Latin American community.
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So it makes sense to me that we have large pickup, of samurai wallet down there. Does that change how you view the product going forward and and how you how you or the project going forward? Because Ronin Dojo, we're gonna get into this as a as a free open source project.
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It's not directly monetizable. Is is that how like, does how does that affect how you view the project going forward?
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I did not I I wasn't
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aware that the samurai community has such a big Spanish
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community
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until I started to work with Ron and Dojo. And
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everybody's so eager in there to
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learn. It's incredible.
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And the the channels in Telegram are so active. There's, I mean, literally
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dozens of people talking at at the same time,
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and it's just
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huge. And I really want to get more involved and focus more
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towards them. So that's why I started out, you know, I I got about 3 guys who basically went and run-in doo doo, and I and I direct everybody to go ahead and just basically
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translate all the menus.
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So we got everything translated.
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It's just a matter of me just going in there and just merging all their changes into running Dojo.
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The future is that I'm going to add
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multilingual support on running Dojo. So, basically, it's gonna start out as Spanish,
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but later on, we're gonna be able to,
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translate into multiple languages. So it's not just, you know, Latin community.
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I want to
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reach out to whatever other communities out there who are interested in in using samurai,
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you know, using Dojo. Whatever it is that we have on there, they want to go ahead and, you know, do translations for us, go ahead and do it. We will upset any pull request.
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And the thing is, you know, we want to be able to keep it in the hands and let everybody be able to use it. You know? Whatever language you speak, we're gonna we're gonna be able to let you
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utilize it in your own language. So that's one of the plans down the road.
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You know, it's not a priority right now, but because there's other things that need to be done. But that's something that I I feel very passionate about is reaching out to, to multilingual,
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countries.
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or one,
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you know, one language. So
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as we as we move forward, that's obviously the goal. Oh, and, you know, PR is always accepted. I mean, this is,
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I know we're gonna get into the whole licensing,
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licensing topic, but,
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you know, we we really wanna provide these tools for everybody. That's why we started this,
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and that's why,
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that's why we do it. We wanted to make it easy for anybody and everybody,
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you know, at a reasonable whether it's plug and play style or whether it's actual just like, hey. You get your own hardware and you do it. We support multiple different,
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actual, like, single board computers, and soon, you know, we'll have the full computer,
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the x86 set up. You know, the the whole goal is to provide
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an easy
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easy experience, and it's just reliable.
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You know? Like,
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the the whole idea of running is to just give you the tools that you need.
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No more, no less. Give you what you need so you can just sit there and have that privacy and know that back of your mind whenever you're out and about and you're spending in the streets,
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hey, my node's running and it's good to go.
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So
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go ahead.
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So, I mean, when when I'm when I'm thinking about,
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you know, we have all these different full node projects. Right? When I'm thinking about a full node project that has a large subset of users in Latin American country,
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I'm thinking of, 3 3 main priorities
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that I think you guys would cosign
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that that you wanna focus on because,
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you have such a large,
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buy in, and you have a large user base down there.
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The first thing is low cost.
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Low cost, just keep costs low and and keep accessibility low. It's hard to bring hardware into a lot of Latin American countries. So you want,
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364
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Yes. Add. So so once we ask x86 support,
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people, for instance, in Venezuela and places, you know, Iraq or, you know, anywhere where it's hard to get a Raspberry PI or, you know, get a single board computer
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into the hands of, you know, people.
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We they're gonna be able go ahead and run, run a dojo on a virtual machine on their own computer.
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So that would be something that they'll be able to do without having to, you know, try to figure out how how they're gonna get their, you know, their own dedicated, you know, computers gonna be running 247.
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But in that sense, you know, they're gonna be they're gonna have to, you know, use up a lot of electricity because if you run it on desktop computer, you gotta make sure that it's running 247.
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Otherwise, you're gonna have to wait for the for the blocks to, you know, to catch up and everything. But x86 support, like, so commission,
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that's going to get people that that option in in countries where they can't get a single
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So so you can just run it on, like, your old laptop or something? Yeah. You can run it on a laptop. You can run it on a desktop. You know, you can run it on, you know, on a virtual machine, you know, or whatnot. Just just, you know, just, the x86 architecture will be supported.
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374
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so I I so so number 1 is low cost easy accessibility.
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I think that falls into that as well, but but just
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it it's it's 2 fold. Right? It's it's making it available for as many platforms as possible, so you have easier accessibility,
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and then also making it as as performant as possible so that you could have,
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you know, weaker hardware can can can support it.
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And then the other two things I would add is is reliability.
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You know, if you're if you live in a country with rolling blackouts,
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poor Internet connection, that that type of thing, you want,
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no funds to be at risk and you want it to still work.
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And then
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the the
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the last thing I would say is
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is privacy by default. So you want a situation where you don't want,
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your government to know that you're necessarily running Bitcoin.
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You don't you don't want them to realize that you're doing anything
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potentially viewed as nefarious,
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and it could be life or death for those users. Would you agree with those 3
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tenants?
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393
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394
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And, I mean,
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the the privacy by default, I mean, that really comes down to how we ship and spend.
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I mean, especially for, like, how it's marked, right, and what type of shipping it comes in. So, I mean, that's definitely all in our radar,
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if we're doing the plug and play style. But at the same time, if these users have access to any of those and when we have the the x86, I mean, like, there's nothing nefarious with a laptop. There's nothing nefarious with
398
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really a computer, you know, and you'll be able to do that. And then at the same time, you know, like,
399
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you know, you said funds at risk, and that's kinda one of the benefits of, like, you know, if there's a rolling blackout. Right? Like, of course, you know, if we if we had, like, a a even more premium version,
400
00:33:25.810 --> 00:33:35.715
we we can add a a UPS on there, right, so that there's extra power in case that there's a blackout. But it I mean, the beauty of of Dojo and versus
401
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:40.820
you know, I know we'll talk about lightning in a little bit, but Mhmm. The beauty of that versus,
402
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you know, running a lightning node is I have no channels. I have no funds that are inherently at risk because I have no coins
403
00:33:48.755 --> 00:33:51.175
that are on my Dojo. Right? Like,
404
00:33:51.875 --> 00:33:54.695
I think that's, like, a underrated aspect of
405
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having a Dojo where it provides all the functionality that you need,
406
00:33:59.270 --> 00:34:01.929
you know, but there's nothing at risk, you know. And
407
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even despite that fact, right, we keep we keep our hardware, like, locked down, you know, to
408
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as minimal as possible. Right? It's like, you know, wherever we SSH into
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and
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the port for
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not not even the port for
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for the UI. We do that through Tor. Everything else is through Tor. So you have one open port,
413
00:34:23.525 --> 00:34:33.450
you know, and then you have failed to ban. You have everything else. So it's, you know, you're talking about very minimal chance of anything happening. And then if something did happen to your to your box,
414
00:34:34.055 --> 00:34:38.954
what you lose nothing. You lose if someone can dig through your database,
415
00:34:39.575 --> 00:34:46.620
right, something in someone could dig through your database, they can get your ex bulb. That that's, like, the most risk that you run.
416
00:34:47.720 --> 00:34:50.860
So, you know, I I find it
417
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very risk minimized
418
00:34:52.985 --> 00:34:58.045
and, you know, and it's different, you know. There's obviously pros and cons to running Lightning Nodes,
419
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and I know q and a asked, like, 30 minutes ago about when Lightning on Ronin.
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He knows better.
421
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422
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423
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Like, for anyone to be able to run this stuff, we want it for everybody, whether that's do it yourself and you buy your own hardware,
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whether you wanna buy, like, a full, like, the full fucking node and ready for it to be just plugged in, we wanna provide that. We want it to be easy to access for you to just have that privacy oriented node that's just gonna work. And,
425
00:35:36.660 --> 00:35:38.280
I think I think we're we're
426
00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:42.200
almost there. You know? I'm not Southside, New York represent?
427
00:35:43.684 --> 00:35:49.704
428
00:35:50.085 --> 00:35:56.359
I just want I want everybody to be aware. If you're not aware, Samurai Dojo, which, we ship in Ronin Dojo.
429
00:35:56.900 --> 00:35:59.474
It uses Tor by default, so all communications
430
00:35:59.775 --> 00:36:01.955
in the network are go through Tor.
431
00:36:02.895 --> 00:36:07.214
And if and if you have problems with your ISP blocking you, you can set up,
432
00:36:07.930 --> 00:36:12.349
toll bridges. So you can get around all that. Great. I mean, you know,
433
00:36:12.650 --> 00:36:14.349
434
00:36:14.810 --> 00:36:18.145
They they share that, quality with the samurai guys.
435
00:36:18.845 --> 00:36:23.025
We I am friends with the start 9 guys at over at Embassy.
436
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.940
They are gonna be on the show sometime soon.
437
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.580
So don't worry, freaks. That will happen.
438
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.500
To be perfectly clear though,
439
00:36:31.055 --> 00:36:35.395
tour only is not an Embassy only feature. Pretty much every single full node stack,
440
00:36:35.855 --> 00:36:38.915
every single popular full node stack, whether that's Ronin Dojo,
441
00:36:39.730 --> 00:36:40.869
whether that's Embassy,
442
00:36:41.410 --> 00:36:46.309
whether that's Raspberry Blitz, whether that's MyNode, whether that's Umbrel, whether that's Noddle,
443
00:36:47.115 --> 00:36:50.575
they all pretty much default to Tor now, which is great to see.
444
00:36:51.435 --> 00:36:54.175
It is kind of a bit of an issue if Tor reliability
445
00:36:54.715 --> 00:36:55.215
is
446
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.820
important, which it is when you're running a lightning node,
447
00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:02.500
and we've seen these Torv three reliability attacks.
448
00:37:03.434 --> 00:37:09.295
Zelco, I did kind of set you up there in terms of I don't think that lightning is ready for
449
00:37:09.595 --> 00:37:12.590
users in adversarial environments such as Latin America.
450
00:37:14.890 --> 00:37:15.390
I
451
00:37:16.490 --> 00:37:17.390
to be clear,
452
00:37:18.490 --> 00:37:24.205
Whirlpool, if you are using Whirlpool, which is Samura's CoinJoin implementation, which I think we're about to dive into,
453
00:37:25.625 --> 00:37:29.405
if you are using that, it is connected to the Internet at the time of usage.
454
00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:33.440
So you are exposing your keys to the Internet, so you do have some
455
00:37:34.539 --> 00:37:38.000
risk. Your funds are at some risk, but strictly speaking,
456
00:37:39.345 --> 00:37:40.165
in practice,
457
00:37:40.785 --> 00:37:44.725
it is significantly less risk than if you're running a lightning hot wallet,
458
00:37:46.065 --> 00:37:47.205
which which require,
459
00:37:47.710 --> 00:37:50.530
basically, to keep your funds secure requires either,
460
00:37:51.310 --> 00:37:52.849
your Internet to stay on
461
00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:56.369
in its entirety or you have a separate device
462
00:37:56.695 --> 00:38:01.915
called the watch tower that has its Internet on its entirety that's watching your channels for you,
463
00:38:02.215 --> 00:38:06.760
to protect you from any kind of malicious actors. So it's strictly superior in that regard.
464
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:09.720
Myself personally, Zelco personally,
465
00:38:10.020 --> 00:38:11.160
Likewell personally
466
00:38:11.595 --> 00:38:18.174
have put substantial funds into Whirlpool. I mean, I I know myself. I put substantial funds into Lightning because I'm just an idiot.
467
00:38:19.115 --> 00:38:19.615
And
468
00:38:20.740 --> 00:38:23.000
What do you mean? We we haven't had any loss.
469
00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:28.680
We haven't had any loss. Right? I haven't had any loss from Lightning, and I haven't had any loss from Whirlpool.
470
00:38:29.195 --> 00:38:30.975
So it is what it is in that regard.
471
00:38:31.835 --> 00:38:32.895
472
00:38:34.875 --> 00:38:41.230
yeah. I mean I mean, like, losing funds is something different. And I'm sure if we were to pull the entire
473
00:38:41.849 --> 00:38:44.270
Lightning community, I'm sure people have have
474
00:38:44.725 --> 00:38:49.705
lost something of some sort, whether they could recover or not. I mean, our channel's going down or whatever.
475
00:38:50.645 --> 00:38:56.570
476
00:38:57.110 --> 00:38:58.250
have been in fees,
477
00:38:59.110 --> 00:39:00.355
that I've had to pay.
478
00:39:00.994 --> 00:39:04.375
And so so the so with Lightning, I had to learn
479
00:39:05.875 --> 00:39:08.615
that really you wanna have few channels that are large.
480
00:39:09.660 --> 00:39:10.880
Few realize this.
481
00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.220
And,
482
00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:21.195
and and you don't wanna have a lot of small channels, especially when fees rise. Even though I expected fees to rise, it still caught me off guard because I need to learn the hard way to be quite honest.
483
00:39:21.975 --> 00:39:24.555
And I think it's important that people do learn by
484
00:39:27.100 --> 00:39:28.080
learn by doing.
485
00:39:28.940 --> 00:39:31.120
And then, I mean, on the CoinJoint side,
486
00:39:31.660 --> 00:39:32.160
like,
487
00:39:32.620 --> 00:39:37.445
me and the freaks together spent a lot of money on wasabi fees,
488
00:39:38.865 --> 00:39:45.819
and then we had to put them through Whirlpool afterwards. How dare you? So we had to I mean, look look, I
489
00:39:46.220 --> 00:39:49.119
You gotta work. I've repented to the Whirlpool guy.
490
00:39:50.380 --> 00:39:52.480
To be clear, Wasabi was,
491
00:39:54.065 --> 00:39:57.685
in the beginning, more stable even if it was a poor implementation
492
00:39:57.985 --> 00:40:00.405
of corn join. The freaks have heard,
493
00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:02.360
many explanations
494
00:40:04.420 --> 00:40:06.520
of the the the nuances
495
00:40:06.820 --> 00:40:10.119
of of the the the 2 different CoinJoin implementations.
496
00:40:10.505 --> 00:40:12.505
I don't really wanna dig into that. I think,
497
00:40:13.705 --> 00:40:15.965
I think the Wasabi guys have kind of admitted,
498
00:40:17.465 --> 00:40:17.965
that,
499
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:23.100
their implementation is subpar because they're working on a radically new different implementation,
500
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.965
that has, like, a 14 month expectation to come out.
501
00:40:28.525 --> 00:40:30.465
So I'd rather focus on
502
00:40:31.245 --> 00:40:33.265
what makes the Whirlpool implementation
503
00:40:34.365 --> 00:40:36.225
of of of ZeroLink,
504
00:40:37.290 --> 00:40:37.790
so
505
00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:40.670
effective
506
00:40:41.050 --> 00:40:45.950
effective and why you think like, let's be honest. Both of you guys have devoted significant
507
00:40:52.035 --> 00:40:52.535
stack.
508
00:40:53.980 --> 00:41:05.555
You know, if you use Samura Wallet, you should use it with your own node. The most performant way to use it with your own node is to use Ronin Dojo. That's what you guys are the lead maintainers of. You're basically wedded yourself to this stack.
509
00:41:06.095 --> 00:41:11.635
You've decided that it is worth your time and energy to focus on improving this stack.
510
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.940
Why is that the case? Why why why should why should people care? Why should people,
511
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:19.059
you know
512
00:41:20.319 --> 00:41:22.579
why why should people use what you're building?
513
00:41:23.105 --> 00:41:26.005
514
00:41:26.305 --> 00:41:28.005
pick me up. So,
515
00:41:28.545 --> 00:41:30.405
I mean, 1st and foremost, right, like,
516
00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:33.240
I'm gonna go back go back in time because,
517
00:41:33.859 --> 00:41:35.400
you know, when this all started,
518
00:41:35.780 --> 00:41:39.079
when when we when I started, me and s 2, Uruguay,
519
00:41:39.495 --> 00:41:44.795
when we started, you know, running it, it was just a bunch of, like, guides and minor scripts.
520
00:41:45.335 --> 00:41:46.715
But we added
521
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:52.540
a block explorer ourselves. We added, you know, Whirlpool to our stack ourselves.
522
00:41:53.240 --> 00:41:56.460
We added in, you know, Electrum Rust Server ourselves.
523
00:41:57.045 --> 00:41:59.704
And then it it's just it was funny to see the development
524
00:42:00.085 --> 00:42:02.585
of Dojo. Right? Like, the vanilla upstream
525
00:42:03.204 --> 00:42:05.065
that we used. Right? Because now
526
00:42:05.550 --> 00:42:08.770
everybody who just uses Vanilla Dojo, right,
527
00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:12.450
they get the Explorer, they get Whirlpool, they get
528
00:42:13.505 --> 00:42:15.765
an indexer, right, the samurai indexer.
529
00:42:17.505 --> 00:42:20.805
You know, so it it was just kinda funny to see all that because, you know,
530
00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.150
we had a good thumb on the on the community.
531
00:42:23.609 --> 00:42:24.349
And so
532
00:42:25.130 --> 00:42:27.630
when it comes down to that, right, like, we we understand
533
00:42:28.490 --> 00:42:32.984
what normal users want. We're not just some developers up in the ivory tower that,
534
00:42:33.365 --> 00:42:42.210
you know, have no thumb on the community. Right? Like, we understand. Of course, we always get some people that say they want lightning, but I'll say that the majority I would say
535
00:42:42.750 --> 00:42:46.290
the the amount of people that have asked us to implement lightning is,
536
00:42:47.035 --> 00:42:51.215
like, near 0. Like, it's it's a non zero number, but it's it's definitely
537
00:42:51.835 --> 00:42:52.575
very low.
538
00:42:53.035 --> 00:42:53.535
And
539
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.099
and that's why we focus on what we focus on. You know, the stack is so strong, you know,
540
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:06.885
particularly Whirlpool. Right? If you're running obviously, like, running your own node. I was telling my wife about this earlier.
541
00:43:07.265 --> 00:43:10.725
If you're not running your own node and your wallet's not backed by your own node,
542
00:43:11.585 --> 00:43:12.325
excuse me,
543
00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:19.630
that means that your wallet is running off someone else's node. Obviously, we know in Samura's case, like, they dedicate one specific,
544
00:43:20.285 --> 00:43:21.105
you know, server
545
00:43:21.565 --> 00:43:23.505
to their to their users. Right?
546
00:43:23.805 --> 00:43:25.245
But, you know, whether it's,
547
00:43:25.645 --> 00:43:26.145
SPV
548
00:43:26.685 --> 00:43:34.000
or whether it's, you know, some other some other form of, like, someone's running a node, and you're trusting those people with your information.
549
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:35.119
So,
550
00:43:36.125 --> 00:43:43.665
the Dojo part is just is like the actual node part is, like, more common sense. Right? That's that's how you best control your information.
551
00:43:44.790 --> 00:43:47.770
The second thing is Whirlpool. Having that running consistently,
552
00:43:48.550 --> 00:43:52.250
and I love explaining this to new users. Not only does Whirlpool,
553
00:43:53.245 --> 00:43:55.105
you know, you can put in as many
554
00:43:55.725 --> 00:43:59.345
UTXOs as you want, right, and break that up as much as you want.
555
00:44:01.130 --> 00:44:03.230
So those fees, like, that fee per,
556
00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:06.830
TX 0. Right? You pay, the fee to samurai,
557
00:44:07.450 --> 00:44:12.455
the, the pool fee. You pay that one time on your TX 0. Right? It's not based on,
558
00:44:12.915 --> 00:44:31.725
you know, the amount going in or how many UTXOs. It's based on that one time pool fee. So your fees can get super low based on the amount that you're you're putting in. So if you're smart, you can calculate it out. You know, Shout out to q and a who has a whirlpool stat error whirlpool calculator website.
559
00:44:32.665 --> 00:44:40.090
But you can calculate it out, and based on the mining pools at the the mining fees at the time and how much, the mining the
560
00:44:40.390 --> 00:44:44.955
liquidity pool fee is. You know, you can you can substantially bring that down.
561
00:44:45.255 --> 00:44:57.859
And then it's it to me, it's worth it because we're doing 2 things. We're paying for privacy. We're paying for service, right, to break all those deterministic links. And I'm also helping support the developers to continue to do what they do
562
00:44:58.195 --> 00:45:00.935
and not ask for handouts, not get VC,
563
00:45:02.515 --> 00:45:09.380
you know, VC funding and then have somebody to answer to. You know, they they gotta do what they want because they have a business model.
564
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:10.420
So,
565
00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:17.845
you know, that whirlpool is is super important right there, but then having it running 247 in the background,
566
00:45:18.224 --> 00:45:22.484
you know, your anonymity set, even if you're not even if there's no
567
00:45:22.865 --> 00:45:25.605
UTXO spinning, but you leave them in post mix,
568
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:27.980
you're continuing to add
569
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:31.980
to that you're you're continuing to get forward looking anonymity.
570
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:33.099
So
571
00:45:33.595 --> 00:45:38.414
people looking back at it, they don't know who's UTXOs or whose, and it continues to grow,
572
00:45:38.795 --> 00:45:40.335
you know, as more and more people,
573
00:45:40.720 --> 00:45:48.565
you know, continue to be selected into the pool. So you don't need to get picked. You know, a lot of people misunderstand that fact. You don't need to actually get
574
00:45:48.885 --> 00:45:56.345
25 mixes, or you don't need to get 10 mixes. Like, you could get 3 and just leave it in there, and then you continue to get better anonymity.
575
00:45:56.849 --> 00:45:57.829
576
00:45:58.290 --> 00:46:00.770
if I'm some schmuck and I join join
577
00:46:01.650 --> 00:46:03.589
oh, I'm hearing a little bit echo echo.
578
00:46:03.970 --> 00:46:05.270
I hear you so echo.
579
00:46:07.455 --> 00:46:09.235
If I'm some schmuck and I join,
580
00:46:10.255 --> 00:46:10.735
samurai
581
00:46:11.055 --> 00:46:18.859
if I I join Whirlpool and I do a single I do a single mix, and then I just turn off my phone, and I just never do a mix again.
582
00:46:19.319 --> 00:46:22.859
Those people you do the mix with, those 4 other UTXOs,
583
00:46:23.240 --> 00:46:24.619
those 4 other participants,
584
00:46:25.625 --> 00:46:37.070
of your transaction, if they go and do a bunch of mixes, that's what people don't realize, if they go and do a bunch of mixes, all their coin join rounds are connected to your coin join round. So your potential,
585
00:46:38.090 --> 00:46:40.590
outputs of of which ones could be you
586
00:46:41.050 --> 00:46:43.630
go grows with the amount of times
587
00:46:43.930 --> 00:46:44.670
your participants
588
00:46:45.565 --> 00:46:55.105
end up reentering coinjoin rounds, and their participants reenter coinjoin rounds. So they join a new round, and that round has 4 new people, and those 4 new people go and join new rounds.
589
00:46:55.470 --> 00:46:58.290
You you go along that tree along with them.
590
00:46:58.830 --> 00:47:02.210
And that's why it's super important that the way ZeroLink is implemented
591
00:47:02.915 --> 00:47:08.695
in in Samurais is implemented in a wholly different way than it's implemented in Wasabi,
592
00:47:09.315 --> 00:47:10.215
where you have
593
00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:18.390
these remixers are re are are it's enforced by the protocol. The coordinator is enforcing it. So it doesn't it doesn't matter.
594
00:47:19.015 --> 00:47:23.035
Yes. Obviously, it it matters in that if we had no one remixing,
595
00:47:23.495 --> 00:47:24.635
we'd all be fucked.
596
00:47:25.015 --> 00:47:27.435
So, like, you should you you should go and remix.
597
00:47:27.740 --> 00:47:34.079
Like, you should do your part and remix all the time, which is what me and Zelco and Mike Lowe do. But
598
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:35.520
if you don't,
599
00:47:36.125 --> 00:47:38.705
you're getting passive privacy improvement
600
00:47:39.085 --> 00:47:41.105
because other people are. Right?
601
00:47:41.725 --> 00:47:44.705
602
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:49.460
I mean, you don't need to and and I think that's probably the best way. I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that for the future.
603
00:47:49.920 --> 00:48:00.885
That's the best way to put it because you really are just, like, sitting there, and you don't need to be in an active mix. And it it goes into one of the ways that I kinda I worked with q and a on one of his guides on, like,
604
00:48:01.265 --> 00:48:12.545
hey. How do we move our our wallet to cold storage? Or I I wanna move my stuff. And so because we get that a lot. You know? I wanna mix 3 times, and then I wanna send my stuff to cold storage or my hardware wallet.
605
00:48:13.025 --> 00:48:13.525
You
606
00:48:13.825 --> 00:48:17.684
know? But one of the best things to do is just take your wallet offline.
607
00:48:18.385 --> 00:48:25.510
Right? Your seeds are as secure as you let them be, and, yeah, it's not cold storage. It was touched by the Internet.
608
00:48:25.890 --> 00:48:29.670
Yeah. It was touched by the Internet, and that's that's fine. Right? But,
609
00:48:30.035 --> 00:48:37.255
you know, it's you took it offline. You you have to you have to stop the Whirlpool CLI, you know, reset that.
610
00:48:37.580 --> 00:48:46.160
But once you do that, your wallet's, like, no longer on the Internet. Right? So you've minimized the risk, the exposure, but all of your coins
611
00:48:46.605 --> 00:48:49.265
are still in that that equal output.
612
00:48:49.565 --> 00:48:51.905
613
00:48:52.205 --> 00:48:53.744
614
00:48:54.319 --> 00:49:01.140
615
00:49:04.245 --> 00:49:05.385
then then,
616
00:49:05.765 --> 00:49:06.265
obviously,
617
00:49:07.045 --> 00:49:11.065
you don't have that risk once you pull it offline. So it was online previously,
618
00:49:11.990 --> 00:49:19.049
and and then you pull it offline. At least you know if an active attacker decides he wants to attack you, he has to come into wherever you're holding
619
00:49:19.355 --> 00:49:22.415
your private keys and and take it because there's they're not online.
620
00:49:24.075 --> 00:49:26.155
The the the issue is more of
621
00:49:26.875 --> 00:49:28.495
and I guess, like,
622
00:49:29.430 --> 00:49:31.270
the new fudders are calling it,
623
00:49:32.230 --> 00:49:33.690
a retirement attack.
624
00:49:34.150 --> 00:49:38.090
But it it's it's a concern that it's existed for a long fucking time.
625
00:49:38.664 --> 00:49:40.765
And and the concern really is
626
00:49:41.464 --> 00:49:44.684
is someone let's say someone figured out a way to compromise
627
00:49:44.984 --> 00:49:46.605
online samurai keys.
628
00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:52.760
They've already compromised you and they wait. They wait for those funds to increase.
629
00:49:53.220 --> 00:49:54.600
Right? And maybe individuals
630
00:49:55.675 --> 00:50:08.860
will remove and add and and they'll end up at worse, but but the the attacker in general is looking at a larger and larger base of of funds they can attack. And at some point in the future, they sweep them all even if you're offline.
631
00:50:10.040 --> 00:50:13.404
That attack, you're still susceptible to. So in general,
632
00:50:14.184 --> 00:50:15.724
you're talking basically
633
00:50:16.265 --> 00:50:17.325
between a privacy
634
00:50:17.944 --> 00:50:18.444
versus
635
00:50:19.144 --> 00:50:24.350
security trade off, which is fine, but it's it's a trade off that exists and people should be aware of,
636
00:50:25.850 --> 00:50:29.950
and it's mostly theoretical to be clear. We haven't had a single person,
637
00:50:31.434 --> 00:50:37.135
lose money on a reputable mobile wallet, period, let alone Samurais. But including Samurais,
638
00:50:37.570 --> 00:50:40.950
we have not had a single person lose money on a reputable wallet.
639
00:50:41.250 --> 00:50:47.955
And there's a lot of irreputable wallets to be fucking clear. Like, if you type in Bitcoin wallet into Google Play Store
640
00:50:48.335 --> 00:50:50.755
or Apple iPhone store or whatever,
641
00:50:51.135 --> 00:50:55.635
there's a lot of shitty fucking wallets that you've never heard of before, and they're mostly scams.
642
00:50:56.430 --> 00:50:59.089
But any reputable wallet, we have not had
643
00:50:59.470 --> 00:51:00.530
any kind of,
644
00:51:01.390 --> 00:51:03.089
you know, remote attack.
645
00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:05.410
But theoretically, you could.
646
00:51:05.725 --> 00:51:10.545
So best practice is to just send it off after you after you do CoinJoin.
647
00:51:11.005 --> 00:51:13.185
And if you and and and and
648
00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:21.880
in general, the practice should be, you leave it in Whirlpool for a while because the remixes are free, and you're adding a bunch of entropy because,
649
00:51:22.555 --> 00:51:25.455
you know, not only are other people adding to your
650
00:51:25.995 --> 00:51:35.510
anonymity set because they're coin joining again, but you're also adding to everyone's anonymity set because you're coin joining again. So you do that for a bit. And then the cool thing about
651
00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:37.670
Samurais is when you send out,
652
00:51:38.210 --> 00:51:43.205
you either send out as a fake 2 person coin joint or a real multi person coin joint.
653
00:51:43.505 --> 00:51:46.245
So you're either the fake one is called Stonewall,
654
00:51:46.640 --> 00:51:51.780
and the real one is called Stonewall times 2 because you have at least 2 people. Easy to remember.
655
00:51:53.655 --> 00:52:00.795
So it doesn't kill the anonymity set of everyone else. Right? Like, when you when you talk about Wasabi, if you send out from Wasabi in that situation,
656
00:52:01.670 --> 00:52:09.210
you're basically proving, okay, any UTXOs that send out from Wasabi at this point are controlled by the same person. But you send out from Samurai and
657
00:52:09.575 --> 00:52:12.475
you don't you don't know. It could be 2 people. It could be 3 people.
658
00:52:13.495 --> 00:52:13.995
Ideally,
659
00:52:14.455 --> 00:52:17.755
we could end up in a situation where you can use Soroban to do, like,
660
00:52:18.369 --> 00:52:21.589
a 5 person Stonewall times 5 or something,
661
00:52:22.529 --> 00:52:26.869
where, like, 5 people leave. Like, that that's the future they're moving towards. Right?
662
00:52:27.964 --> 00:52:36.865
And and and and we could have simulated fake 5 person coin joins as well. Like, you have real 5 person coin joins and you have fake 5 person coin. Like, you can do that shit.
663
00:52:38.910 --> 00:52:44.290
Yeah. So, I mean, that that's the package we want to be in. That's the situation we wanna be in. I don't think we should,
664
00:52:47.225 --> 00:52:59.090
yeah, I I I I just I think the majority of funds that people hold for long term should be on keys that have never touched the Internet, period. And I'm a hardliner on that, and that it is what it is.
665
00:52:59.550 --> 00:53:00.050
666
00:53:00.350 --> 00:53:01.730
So, I mean, I'm
667
00:53:02.350 --> 00:53:06.405
I'm fine with that. Right? I'm fine with the idea of having
668
00:53:07.105 --> 00:53:07.605
a,
669
00:53:09.425 --> 00:53:10.085
a savings.
670
00:53:10.625 --> 00:53:11.125
Right?
671
00:53:11.610 --> 00:53:14.590
Savings versus a, you know, a spending.
672
00:53:15.930 --> 00:53:27.205
I don't my my only issue and, like, I'm not I don't disagree with pretty much anything that you said. There's obviously threat models to everything. And that and that was one of the one of the points that we bring up in his article
673
00:53:27.620 --> 00:53:34.360
is that it is a threat model. Right? It's a warm wallet, not a fucking cold storage. Once you take it off the end, it doesn't make it cold.
674
00:53:36.435 --> 00:53:38.775
You know? But at the same time,
675
00:53:39.795 --> 00:53:42.615
I don't think that a majority of people,
676
00:53:43.235 --> 00:53:48.520
and I I don't wanna go into your multisig rabbit hole, but I don't think that
677
00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:55.305
I don't think that the average user or even a mid like, I'll venture to stay the majority of the freaks,
678
00:53:55.765 --> 00:53:57.065
that are consistent listeners
679
00:53:58.165 --> 00:53:58.665
appropriately
680
00:53:59.285 --> 00:54:01.390
take those actions and, like, appropriately
681
00:54:01.930 --> 00:54:03.230
know how to use
682
00:54:03.770 --> 00:54:12.994
this isn't all of them. Just saying that they're I would say that not everyone knows how to do it the right way, and they might think that they have cold storage where they never touch the Internet,
683
00:54:13.615 --> 00:54:14.115
never,
684
00:54:14.654 --> 00:54:19.420
you know, didn't do any of the any of the things that would have risked their their security,
685
00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:26.140
you know, I don't think that majority of people know how to do that because it's not easy. It's not it's not like a
686
00:54:26.725 --> 00:54:27.465
super simple,
687
00:54:28.085 --> 00:54:36.690
you know, process. And one small thing can can screw it up, and then they end up being in the same boat of having the same, whether it's minimal risk or not,
688
00:54:37.950 --> 00:54:40.049
they're having the same risk. So,
689
00:54:41.230 --> 00:54:50.505
and then you go to the same the the idea, right, of what do you do with your coins when you're ready to spend. And it goes back to that same concept that I just said where
690
00:54:50.964 --> 00:54:55.920
I think that I've seen so many users that vary in experience and vary in technical skills,
691
00:54:56.220 --> 00:54:56.720
where
692
00:54:57.020 --> 00:54:59.040
some people are, like, super
693
00:54:59.500 --> 00:55:07.994
type a, and they label every single UTXO. They're like, hey. I have a whole process. When I send it to my holder hardware wallet, I label every single one.
694
00:55:08.295 --> 00:55:12.555
I know which one is is which, and I and I'll never screw this up and whatever.
695
00:55:12.980 --> 00:55:21.240
And then you go, hey, in 10 years, you plan on spending this. In 10 years, are you going to not screw this up? You know, because
696
00:55:21.915 --> 00:55:24.335
whether it's an attacker or whether it's the government,
697
00:55:25.355 --> 00:55:38.319
698
00:55:38.735 --> 00:55:43.475
Because because CoinJoin's a perfect example of you need the ability to reset.
699
00:55:43.775 --> 00:55:51.870
I forgot. I don't know what the label is for this UTXO. I have no idea where this is from. Let me put this into Whirlpool, and then I'll deal with it as a post mix.
700
00:55:53.050 --> 00:56:13.040
701
00:56:13.340 --> 00:56:14.400
702
00:56:15.454 --> 00:56:17.234
fucking coin in Whirlpool
703
00:56:17.775 --> 00:56:19.474
than the majority of people
704
00:56:19.935 --> 00:56:20.595
who would
705
00:56:21.055 --> 00:56:25.300
that that would say, like, oh, Matt. Like, you're you're being you're overstating the
706
00:56:25.600 --> 00:56:26.480
risks. Like, are you
707
00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:52.125
708
00:56:52.745 --> 00:56:54.365
Exactly. Because it's very important.
709
00:56:54.745 --> 00:56:59.910
710
00:57:00.289 --> 00:57:02.549
711
00:57:03.535 --> 00:57:04.515
712
00:57:05.694 --> 00:57:07.315
713
00:57:08.414 --> 00:57:15.930
714
00:57:17.110 --> 00:57:23.535
715
00:57:23.835 --> 00:57:31.140
Yeah. I I mean, I I think you're hitting it, man. Like, you have to you have to mix. And if you're really not sure, just mix it again. You know? And,
716
00:57:31.680 --> 00:57:35.539
like, yeah. Do you have to pay a fee? Sure. But is it worth it? A 100%.
717
00:57:35.839 --> 00:57:39.460
Like I mean, maybe it's not for you. If it's not for you, then,
718
00:57:40.225 --> 00:57:48.885
you know, I don't know, ruin your privacy. But, you know, if it's worth it for you, there's there's different options, you know, whether you take your wallet offline
719
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:55.460
and have it as a warm I'm doing quotations that you can't see, a warm wallet, whether you send it to a cold storage,
720
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:03.115
you know, whether you send it to cold storage, whether you send it to a hardware wallet that, you know, you're trusting even though, I don't know, you were
721
00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:05.580
silly and you plugged it into your computer.
722
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:12.915
I don't know. What whatever works for you. If you're not sure and you're not confident in your spend, put put it back to
723
00:58:14.115 --> 00:58:23.930
that's funny. Put it back to Well, summarize just go through Whirlpool. You know? Oh, that's why you're doing so much. Money. I get no just to be clear, I get your own money back
724
00:58:24.310 --> 00:58:33.355
725
00:58:34.135 --> 00:58:34.955
726
00:58:35.750 --> 00:58:38.809
Write down your c. Make a nice password phrase
727
00:58:40.790 --> 00:58:41.849
instead of Sentinel.
728
00:58:42.230 --> 00:58:44.569
And that's all you have to do, and then just, you know,
729
00:58:45.015 --> 00:58:49.675
get rid of your wallet. Just let let Sentinel do its thing. That's all you have to do.
730
00:58:51.095 --> 00:58:53.355
731
00:58:54.190 --> 00:59:03.010
tools coming out from what I understand. Again, this is all rumor. Don't fucking hold me to it because I'm not a samurai developer. But from what I hear, there's gonna be a lot more,
732
00:59:03.894 --> 00:59:05.674
cold storage slash different
733
00:59:06.135 --> 00:59:07.914
ways to send your coins out.
734
00:59:08.295 --> 00:59:08.795
And
735
00:59:09.654 --> 00:59:14.360
and then Sentinel is gonna have the ability to sign transactions offline,
736
00:59:14.900 --> 00:59:16.040
being able to send,
737
00:59:16.980 --> 00:59:17.640
738
00:59:17.940 --> 00:59:21.880
739
00:59:22.705 --> 00:59:24.805
wallet that never touches the Internet
740
00:59:25.585 --> 00:59:38.930
and utilize that as your cold storage, but it has all the post mix tools and everything that you need, And Sentinel can just sign and broadcast it, which well, I guess it wouldn't sign it, but your device would sign it and Sentinel could broadcast it.
741
00:59:39.955 --> 00:59:43.735
They're they're coming up with that now, and that's to me, that's super awesome.
742
00:59:45.155 --> 00:59:51.110
743
00:59:51.650 --> 00:59:53.110
it's because I have
744
00:59:53.570 --> 00:59:55.910
the samurai guys are coming at me
745
00:59:57.734 --> 00:59:59.595
for being too low time preference,
746
00:59:59.895 --> 01:00:03.355
and then I have the low time preference guys are coming at me for samurai.
747
01:00:03.655 --> 01:00:04.555
And really,
748
01:00:05.680 --> 01:00:06.180
few,
749
01:00:07.680 --> 01:00:08.180
realize
750
01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:12.020
very low time preference samurai
751
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:14.855
goal that I have is that I think,
752
01:00:17.155 --> 01:00:18.535
they're building samurai
753
01:00:18.915 --> 01:00:22.455
the samurai team is building the foundation of Bitcoin privacy
754
01:00:22.790 --> 01:00:25.770
in an open source way, a free and open source way,
755
01:00:27.270 --> 01:00:31.770
and you need this base. You need the base. You need the okay. We have
756
01:00:32.155 --> 01:00:32.895
no deterministic
757
01:00:33.195 --> 01:00:33.695
links
758
01:00:33.995 --> 01:00:38.895
in a coordinated coin join round, and then it either goes out through a real multiparty
759
01:00:39.435 --> 01:00:48.470
coin join or it goes out through a fake multi party coin join, and we default to fake multi party coin join. Okay. And we got that. And then on the front side, you go, okay.
760
01:00:48.930 --> 01:00:58.865
Let's change the pool sizes. Let's let's scale the pool sizes as as the amount happens, and then let's let's change it so that we can have multiparty UTXOs
761
01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:00.900
so that we can have,
762
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.700
we can have individuals come in. We can have 5 or 6 people
763
01:01:08.935 --> 01:01:13.035
come in. They come in. Then on the way out okay. Then on the way out, we could pay join,
764
01:01:13.575 --> 01:01:38.220
you in in this case, in Sam Roth stowaway. We can do maybe we can do, like, 7 or 8 person coin joins, non coordinated coin joins on the way out. We can do fake 7 person coin joins. Like, you can do all these different things. Right? And it's about building this base. You have to build if you if you don't build from a solid foundation, then it's all a waste. If you if you don't build from a solid foundation, then what you have is a year and a half of us trying to increase Wasabi adoption,
765
01:01:38.600 --> 01:01:39.740
and then them deciding
766
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:49.335
that we're gonna have to wait another year and a half for Wasabi 2 point o, and it's gonna be a completely different an anonymity set. Right? So you wanna build from this strong base.
767
01:01:50.990 --> 01:01:51.490
Yes?
768
01:01:51.950 --> 01:01:58.025
769
01:01:58.505 --> 01:02:07.005
Sunrise license is open source, fully open source. You guys Yeah. Let's talk about this. Okay. Do do whatever you want with it. Don't worry about it. No one's gonna bite you.
770
01:02:07.830 --> 01:02:08.890
771
01:02:09.190 --> 01:02:11.690
772
01:02:12.870 --> 01:02:13.690
773
01:02:14.755 --> 01:02:20.134
774
01:02:21.634 --> 01:02:23.815
open source means a lot of different things,
775
01:02:24.270 --> 01:02:30.130
a lot of different p I. So this is the 2nd main topic we wanna talk about. We wanna talk about Bitcoin privacy. We wanna talk about open source licenses.
776
01:02:30.990 --> 01:02:38.515
There's many different licenses you can choose when you go open source, and they vary from being able to just view the source, source viewable,
777
01:02:38.815 --> 01:02:41.555
to being able to do whatever you want with the code.
778
01:02:42.810 --> 01:02:46.910
And people argue all the time about what is open source and what isn't.
779
01:02:49.105 --> 01:02:56.164
So so you have those 2 thing. And so so you have on one extreme end, you have closed source where you can't see the code at all.
780
01:02:56.700 --> 01:03:02.160
Then you have source viewable where you can see the code, but you can't do anything with it. And then you have
781
01:03:02.859 --> 01:03:05.599
proper open source. You have free open source software
782
01:03:05.925 --> 01:03:12.505
where you're able to do whatever you want with the code, and no one can stop you. And you have all those different gradients in between.
783
01:03:12.805 --> 01:03:20.430
You have different projects in between. Ronin Dojo is on the far the far side of the free open source, where you can just
784
01:03:20.970 --> 01:03:22.830
do whatever you want with the code.
785
01:03:23.525 --> 01:03:30.345
Where do we stand here, boys? I know there's a lot of controversy here about the other full note Saks. Let's just fucking go go go into it. Alright.
786
01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:34.300
787
01:03:34.700 --> 01:03:35.440
as samurai
788
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:36.320
AGPL,
789
01:03:37.579 --> 01:03:38.079
AGPLv3,
790
01:03:38.700 --> 01:03:41.435
but it's it's basically saying that it's,
791
01:03:42.135 --> 01:03:53.300
copy left. Instead of copy right, it's copy left, meaning that anyone that wants to use their code, they can do whatever they someone can fork and just make their own run-in Dojo, whatever they wanna call it.
792
01:03:53.600 --> 01:04:00.975
And but it has to remain open source. It has to remain they can charge people. They can do whatever, but it has to have the same licensing
793
01:04:01.435 --> 01:04:03.295
as we do. Otherwise, they're liable.
794
01:04:03.755 --> 01:04:10.579
So if they don't change their licensing, then then that service has to be free. Right? We saw this with, with myNode.
795
01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:13.140
K? So myNode tried to implement Whirlpool,
796
01:04:14.105 --> 01:04:15.885
which I helped with, but
797
01:04:16.265 --> 01:04:24.030
they wanted it to be a premium feature, and it couldn't be because they didn't have the same license that we did or that Whirlpool did.
798
01:04:24.730 --> 01:04:25.230
So,
799
01:04:25.770 --> 01:04:27.470
you know, the idea that,
800
01:04:28.170 --> 01:04:34.125
like, free open source software is that it's supposed to have that freedom and supposed to protect
801
01:04:34.445 --> 01:04:37.505
I mean, I guess it's everyone's opinion, but it's supposed to be able to protect,
802
01:04:37.885 --> 01:04:41.680
you know, that code to be able to get to as many people as possible.
803
01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:46.560
That's at least my interpretation. Right? So when you look at people that see competition,
804
01:04:47.674 --> 01:04:56.815
and instead of saying, like, okay. Cool. Competition, bring it on. Right? You get people that get butt hurt. I'm I'm not gonna name any names. I just know that it's your favorite
805
01:04:57.200 --> 01:04:57.859
your favorite,
806
01:04:58.240 --> 01:04:59.859
you know, hardware wallet, but
807
01:05:00.160 --> 01:05:00.660
they,
808
01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:04.820
you know, they they wanna get upset even though they utilized
809
01:05:05.275 --> 01:05:14.975
the same open source nature of all their hardware wallets in order to, you know, push their agenda, and that's fine. Like, that's the name of the game. Like, that that's exactly what
810
01:05:15.340 --> 01:05:20.880
free open source software is about. Right? It's supposed to be able to anybody can come in, fork it, use it,
811
01:05:22.140 --> 01:05:24.720
implement what they want, change what they want,
812
01:05:25.405 --> 01:05:34.099
take it, charge people if that's what they wanna do. You know? But at the end of the day, keeping it free and open source protects you from, you know, the big corporations
813
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:41.859
that, you know, want to charge it, but wanna keep it proprietary and wanna keep it closed source or copyrighted even though it's not their code.
814
01:05:42.165 --> 01:05:42.665
So,
815
01:05:43.285 --> 01:05:43.865
you know,
816
01:05:44.405 --> 01:05:55.349
it and I was talking to some of the samurai guys, and it's like, man, like, what we're seeing now with some of these creative or the, the common clause and n c NCND,
817
01:05:56.130 --> 01:06:00.734
I wasn't even super spun up on it, and I was like, wait. What do you mean it's not just open source?
818
01:06:01.035 --> 01:06:05.295
Like, it's not just, like, the the regular GNU or, you know,
819
01:06:05.994 --> 01:06:06.494
why
820
01:06:07.090 --> 01:06:11.910
why are any why is anyone getting upset right now? Or why is anyone trying to, like, overly protect
821
01:06:12.450 --> 01:06:19.964
what what they do? Like, this is what Bitcoin's about. Bitcoin is about being open source so that anybody can do whatever they want.
822
01:06:20.424 --> 01:06:24.665
They wanna make a PR? Cool. Do it. Like, let's see what you got. You know? Let's,
823
01:06:25.830 --> 01:06:26.330
let's,
824
01:06:26.950 --> 01:06:33.450
I don't know, change the game. If you wanna take it and, you know, you like some of the things that I do, like, if I like some of the things that,
825
01:06:33.845 --> 01:06:40.345
you know, Minot or Umbrell does and I wanna take it, but now I can't because you changed your your licensing,
826
01:06:41.125 --> 01:06:48.130
like, does that really make you unique? I don't like, I don't know. Does that make you confident in your ability to to provide a good product?
827
01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:49.410
I don't know.
828
01:06:50.190 --> 01:06:50.690
But
829
01:06:52.164 --> 01:06:56.984
I don't know. I think that we're we're going down this weird rabbit hole of
830
01:06:57.845 --> 01:07:05.430
like, I'm seeing a big shift in the Bitcoin community of people being too scared to just make it fully open source
831
01:07:05.809 --> 01:07:12.464
and fully available to everybody to do what they want and keeping that copy left, right, so that everybody
832
01:07:13.085 --> 01:07:13.585
can,
833
01:07:14.525 --> 01:07:16.065
can do what they want. Right?
834
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:21.280
That that's what Bitcoin's supposed to be about, at least in my opinion. I don't know. Like, well, you guys you
835
01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:24.655
836
01:07:25.375 --> 01:07:28.035
and I still hear an echo echo. So go.
837
01:07:29.295 --> 01:07:31.395
Okay. Thank you. If if
838
01:07:33.390 --> 01:07:39.810
and I I don't know why that that goes happening. If if I wanna play devil's advocate just for the freak's sake,
839
01:07:41.115 --> 01:07:44.335
I I think a very clear cut argument
840
01:07:44.635 --> 01:07:45.035
would be
841
01:07:46.235 --> 01:07:51.720
and and something they have heard in the past because we've had, Rodolfo on twice now,
842
01:07:53.540 --> 01:07:55.320
lead maintainer of Coldcard,
843
01:07:56.260 --> 01:07:57.960
cofounder of Coldcard Wallet.
844
01:07:59.155 --> 01:08:04.775
The main argument would be you have someone like Foundation Devices, in this case of Coldcard,
845
01:08:05.075 --> 01:08:06.615
who takes a direct copy
846
01:08:07.310 --> 01:08:08.450
of Coldcard
847
01:08:09.310 --> 01:08:12.690
and go and raises VC money based off of it.
848
01:08:13.470 --> 01:08:15.730
They take preorders based off of it.
849
01:08:16.145 --> 01:08:28.119
They advertise based off of being as secure as cold card. So, like, people have a respect for cold card and already, and and they advertise, like, like, oh, if you buy this hardware wallet, you'll know you'll get just as good security as cold card.
850
01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:35.855
And they have not released anything yet, and they have not released anything upstream even though, technically,
851
01:08:36.795 --> 01:08:40.975
they say they're complying with the license because no one has received product yet.
852
01:08:43.390 --> 01:08:48.850
So no one has received product yet. So when they receive product, we will release our upstream improvements.
853
01:08:49.235 --> 01:08:52.775
And in the meantime, they refactored everything. So to pretend like
854
01:08:53.635 --> 01:08:55.735
they didn't really take what they took.
855
01:08:56.435 --> 01:08:59.360
And you ended up in that situation, and I could see
856
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:03.040
I see the argument from Rodolfo where he says,
857
01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:20.250
you know, you have source viewable, so you're able to view the code. You're able to verify the code. You're able to not trust me and verify. But at the same time, like, I'm not gonna let you just go and basically, like, dilute my VC investment potential because I've chosen not to invest go with VCs.
858
01:09:22.070 --> 01:09:29.575
And and you're just gonna go and do that and just and and be malicious in terms of of the ways you do to do preorders,
859
01:09:31.475 --> 01:09:39.160
I'm not gonna let you do that and and go for a more restrictive license that still allows you to view the source, but doesn't allow you to take it.
860
01:09:39.540 --> 01:09:43.320
I mean, I I think that would that would be the main argument against,
861
01:09:44.885 --> 01:09:46.825
a a fully open source license.
862
01:09:48.325 --> 01:09:50.105
Where do like, what's your counterargument
863
01:09:50.405 --> 01:09:51.145
against that?
864
01:09:54.270 --> 01:10:03.465
865
01:10:05.125 --> 01:10:07.704
I mean, yeah, it's a it's a business model. Right?
866
01:10:08.270 --> 01:10:08.770
And
867
01:10:09.150 --> 01:10:12.290
when it threatens your business model because people are,
868
01:10:13.630 --> 01:10:14.910
not upholding the same
869
01:10:15.550 --> 01:10:16.690
so so, like,
870
01:10:17.435 --> 01:10:19.295
if they upheld the same license
871
01:10:19.595 --> 01:10:20.095
that,
872
01:10:21.435 --> 01:10:23.535
that Coldcard did, right, and Coldcard
873
01:10:24.235 --> 01:10:28.010
obviously took code from from Trezor. Right? We know this.
874
01:10:28.790 --> 01:10:30.170
875
01:10:31.030 --> 01:10:38.635
they took, like, they took a very little amount of code, and the new update removes that code from from the software. For whatever it's It doesn't
876
01:10:39.335 --> 01:10:40.955
really matter. Be clear. Right?
877
01:10:41.255 --> 01:10:49.860
Yeah. I mean, like Just to be clear, they didn't change of the code they they took from Trezor, which was minimal amount of code compared to the amount of code that Foundation took. It's it's
878
01:10:50.240 --> 01:10:56.195
I I I'm not trying to I don't want it to be perceived that I'm defending my buddy Rodolfo.
879
01:10:56.975 --> 01:11:08.970
Even though he is my buddy, he's a close friend for me, But I I I I want this conversation to be talked about because no one's talking about this shit, and this is where what Citadel dispatch is about. We this is why we dispatch. Okay. Continue.
880
01:11:09.685 --> 01:11:20.619
881
01:11:21.080 --> 01:11:39.850
you know, someone literally taking a copy of his code. I I don't know every single detail, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that I do. But if it was, right, I I can understand being frustrated and being pissed, and then, you know, you getting people that you're losing potential customers because of it. Like, that makes sense. Right? But
882
01:11:40.550 --> 01:11:51.080
that's that's part of the game. Right? Like, that that's part of what this is. Literally, like, if I wanted to today to start my own samurai wallet, I could do that with the same licensing.
883
01:11:51.780 --> 01:11:57.525
As long as I kept the same licensing, I can I can push my own product and say, hey? This is I provide
884
01:11:57.985 --> 01:12:01.125
Whirlpool and Stonewall and Kahoots and
885
01:12:01.505 --> 01:12:08.060
Pay NIMs and all this stuff, and anybody can do this. You you're like, my wallet is better than samurai wallet.
886
01:12:08.440 --> 01:12:20.845
Right? Like, I I can do that. And then samurai wallet's going to be, like, okay, fucking game on. You know what I mean? Like, they're gonna say, hey, good to go. Let's do this. And they're going to step up to the challenge and fight it.
887
01:12:21.699 --> 01:12:25.800
That's Yeah. That's what I expect. That's called that that that's just straight competition.
888
01:12:26.260 --> 01:12:27.639
You know? I mean, everyone
889
01:12:28.535 --> 01:12:33.195
I I don't know. Like, I I do understand. I do understand, like, him wanting to protect his
890
01:12:33.655 --> 01:12:34.155
his
891
01:12:35.175 --> 01:12:39.860
his code. Right? Everyone wants to protect their code to some sort. Mhmm. You know? But,
892
01:12:41.360 --> 01:12:47.265
you know, if you want to claim that you are false, if you're a free open source software,
893
01:12:47.965 --> 01:13:04.555
you need to be copy left, not copyright. You need to be copy left, and you need to keep that because that that's what Bitcoin has always been on. That is what the Bitcoin community's been about. That's what, like, this whole the whole movement of free open source software
894
01:13:04.935 --> 01:13:13.219
has been about, like, yeah. Okay. Cool. You wanna take your stuff? Cool. We have different ideas because ultimately, like, Foundation's gonna have different ideas than
895
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:16.980
than NVK is. Right? Like, Rudolfo's gonna have a different,
896
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:22.935
897
01:13:23.875 --> 01:13:28.135
No. Say it again? To to be to be clear here. Okay? So I was
898
01:13:29.630 --> 01:13:40.465
I was being a little bit, you know, I I do this twice a week now. Okay? So I was being a little bit, gratuitous. I was trying to create the situation, and I will admit to that. But
899
01:13:41.885 --> 01:13:43.985
I personally have told Rodolfo,
900
01:13:46.180 --> 01:13:46.680
privately
901
01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:51.560
that I disagree with how he's proceeded with the situation. And I would add
902
01:13:52.180 --> 01:13:52.680
that
903
01:13:54.315 --> 01:13:55.055
I think
904
01:13:55.755 --> 01:14:00.335
that as big corners, we should support strictly free open source projects.
905
01:14:01.489 --> 01:14:04.070
All else equal, a free open source project
906
01:14:04.929 --> 01:14:09.670
that has a license that has no restrictions whatsoever on what I can do with the code
907
01:14:09.995 --> 01:14:10.815
is superior,
908
01:14:11.195 --> 01:14:16.735
and and that fosters the open source movement. It creates a foundation that other people can build on.
909
01:14:17.355 --> 01:14:18.175
I think
910
01:14:18.989 --> 01:14:19.730
this move
911
01:14:20.830 --> 01:14:21.969
by otherwise
912
01:14:22.429 --> 01:14:22.929
respected
913
01:14:23.230 --> 01:14:24.690
individuals in our community
914
01:14:25.310 --> 01:14:27.570
Rodolva's not the only one. Recently,
915
01:14:28.205 --> 01:14:33.585
the argument has been about Umbrel, and the Raspberry Pi Blitz guys have rightfully so brought up Umbrel's
916
01:14:33.965 --> 01:14:34.465
licensing.
917
01:14:34.765 --> 01:14:40.580
I know the Ronin Dojo guys. I know you guys have talked about it as well, and and this is a main part of of this discussion.
918
01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:43.860
It stems from insecurity.
919
01:14:45.204 --> 01:14:47.065
It stems from a level of insecurity.
920
01:14:47.605 --> 01:14:48.105
And
921
01:14:48.724 --> 01:14:51.625
if if I'm a user and I trust Coldcard,
922
01:14:52.164 --> 01:14:53.784
it doesn't matter if Foundation
923
01:14:54.840 --> 01:15:06.545
copies my code. It doesn't matter if they release a piece of product that's exactly the same as Coldcard. I mean, they they they release a product that looks different, but imagine they release a product that looks exactly the same as Coldcard,
924
01:15:09.005 --> 01:15:10.945
and they use the identical code.
925
01:15:11.429 --> 01:15:16.409
Like, I'm not gonna just immediately trust that product. Like, there there is there is a reputation
926
01:15:17.110 --> 01:15:19.050
at line like, there's a reputation
927
01:15:19.590 --> 01:15:20.730
on the line here
928
01:15:21.135 --> 01:15:25.715
that that that is as much as we say don't trust verified, that is that is in the picture.
929
01:15:26.015 --> 01:15:30.960
And it's the same exact thing with Samurai, and and and anyone who wants to
930
01:15:31.820 --> 01:15:36.079
protect their code and same thing with Umbrel. And anyone who wants to protect their code
931
01:15:36.505 --> 01:15:38.125
through restrictive licensing
932
01:15:38.665 --> 01:15:40.045
is someone who's insecure
933
01:15:40.585 --> 01:15:41.645
that their reputation,
934
01:15:42.505 --> 01:15:47.100
that their company, that their that the trust that they built up with their users,
935
01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:53.420
is not sufficient enough to propel them. And I I think that's a loser's mentality. Like, I think
936
01:15:53.925 --> 01:15:58.105
that these that these guys who I respect the fuck out of, to be quite honest,
937
01:15:58.965 --> 01:16:00.425
and that I consider friends,
938
01:16:00.725 --> 01:16:02.745
they they should just not be as insecure.
939
01:16:05.470 --> 01:16:13.065
940
01:16:13.925 --> 01:16:26.775
You're a software developer. You're either going to write software that you're going to share with the world, or you're going to write software that you're not going to share with the world. It's either you're gonna open source it or you're not gonna open source it. Right?
941
01:16:27.495 --> 01:16:33.675
Rodolfo created very good software. In my opinion, Coldcar is is very thunderous hardware and software.
942
01:16:34.170 --> 01:16:34.670
Right?
943
01:16:35.450 --> 01:16:37.870
I think that he didn't understand,
944
01:16:38.170 --> 01:16:41.630
basically, what he was doing with the license. He didn't know.
945
01:16:42.355 --> 01:16:44.855
I don't I'm not trying to rag on him or anything,
946
01:16:45.395 --> 01:16:50.350
but he should've known the license that he was releasing his software in. Understand
947
01:16:51.210 --> 01:16:52.750
Foundation might have just took his code
948
01:16:53.210 --> 01:16:54.830
and took a lot of his work,
949
01:16:55.449 --> 01:17:02.575
and they got they went ahead and got VCs, and they got funding, and they they this is not what he wanted. He wanted to grow organically. Right?
950
01:17:03.195 --> 01:17:17.105
And and I admire that from him. You know? But you have to understand, when you create code like that and somebody takes it, it's because of the license that you choose, and you have to respect that. And that's that's that's what innovation does. You allow people to take your code
951
01:17:17.405 --> 01:17:27.800
and work on it and improve upon it. And this is what, you know, Copyleft allows. It allows people to go ahead and take your code and do whatever they want, but they're gonna have to contribute back. Right?
952
01:17:28.875 --> 01:17:32.415
So he shouldn't have gotten so mad about what they did.
953
01:17:33.435 --> 01:17:36.735
He is a better developer than they are. They took his code,
954
01:17:37.060 --> 01:17:43.720
basically. In the in the first place, they took his code. If they didn't need his code, they could've done their own code. Right? They could've done their own implementation.
955
01:17:44.715 --> 01:17:48.094
But he's has he has to be confident in his abilities
956
01:17:48.475 --> 01:17:50.014
and what he's going to do.
957
01:17:50.315 --> 01:17:55.519
He already has a a reputation of creating a piece of hardware. Hard you know, one of the,
958
01:17:55.820 --> 01:17:57.360
I think, the most popular,
959
01:17:58.139 --> 01:18:00.719
you know, cold storage wallets out there.
960
01:18:01.340 --> 01:18:02.480
Hands down. Right?
961
01:18:03.474 --> 01:18:08.135
He should not worry about foundation. He should just keep going and just and just focus.
962
01:18:08.675 --> 01:18:15.130
The thing that got me a little bit upset is him changing his license, which is it just goes against what he started,
963
01:18:15.910 --> 01:18:30.585
which is, you know, creating a license that allows other people to fork it, to innovate from it, and for him to get, you know, get back innovation that's coming from other people. So either, you know, you're gonna be closed source or open source. And that's that's the thing with me.
964
01:18:31.050 --> 01:18:34.990
You know, you wanna share it. I mean, let's let's think about Red Hat and other Linux distributions.
965
01:18:35.690 --> 01:18:36.750
If Ubuntu
966
01:18:37.450 --> 01:18:41.445
was closed source, then you wouldn't have the Redis, you know, like GENTILINUX.
967
01:18:42.305 --> 01:18:49.830
If they if that had a license, then people couldn't be able to, create forks out of it. You wouldn't have you wouldn't have other things that came out of it.
968
01:18:50.369 --> 01:18:51.429
So, you know,
969
01:18:51.730 --> 01:18:55.270
Red Hat made a lot of money. They made their money from support.
970
01:18:55.735 --> 01:19:00.635
And there's a lot of money in open source software. People think, oh, no. You can't make money off it. There is.
971
01:19:01.175 --> 01:19:09.150
You know? You you can't sell the code because it's open source. Right? Anybody can copy it. But you're building products from it, and you're building you're making money from the support.
972
01:19:09.690 --> 01:19:12.145
And that's the way it is, and I I just feel that
973
01:19:12.705 --> 01:19:13.765
he shouldn't feel
974
01:19:14.225 --> 01:19:20.885
threatened by Foundation. I know they they they took a lot of his hard work and dedication, and they went ahead
975
01:19:21.510 --> 01:19:23.370
and they did whatever they did. Right?
976
01:19:24.150 --> 01:19:29.770
He should just stay focused on what he's building, and that's it. That's that's just the thing that I that I feel about.
977
01:19:30.155 --> 01:19:40.820
And he shouldn't not change his license. He should've just kept it the way it is because right now, his license is just a little bit like you, you know, you you can take it, but you can't do nothing with it.
978
01:19:41.840 --> 01:19:45.700
And that's kinda like, you know it's a little fucked up, in my opinion.
979
01:19:47.765 --> 01:19:52.745
980
01:19:54.619 --> 01:19:56.960
If you're if you're worried about the competition,
981
01:19:57.579 --> 01:19:58.079
right,
982
01:19:58.380 --> 01:20:01.760
like, if you're worried about them just taking what you do and then
983
01:20:02.139 --> 01:20:03.360
doing their own thing,
984
01:20:03.715 --> 01:20:08.215
that means that you're you're really are worried about them surpassing you.
985
01:20:08.595 --> 01:20:09.655
You know, I
986
01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:12.340
I definitely
987
01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:16.340
and and like you said, right, I actually do really do respect the developers.
988
01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:19.940
I mean, especially when you're talking about the node game. Right? Like,
989
01:20:21.585 --> 01:20:22.805
my node and
990
01:20:23.185 --> 01:20:33.110
and Umbrella in particular come into mind. I don't necessarily agree with their how they implement everything. I mean, I've already had my scuffs with some of the guys, but, you know, I think that,
991
01:20:35.010 --> 01:20:40.630
I think that, you know, when you have a really good product, you know, you shouldn't worry about everything else.
992
01:20:40.974 --> 01:20:46.195
Like, screw it. Like, if they're worried about Minot or if they're worried about, I don't know,
993
01:20:46.815 --> 01:20:47.315
Embassy,
994
01:20:47.934 --> 01:20:48.594
you know,
995
01:20:49.054 --> 01:20:50.114
make a better product.
996
01:20:50.500 --> 01:20:55.880
You know, make make have your community be the ones that back you, you know, because
997
01:20:57.060 --> 01:21:03.955
I I don't see that with Samurai Wallet. Like, I don't see like, they're completely open source. All you have to do is use the same license.
998
01:21:04.415 --> 01:21:08.755
But they're not worried about anything, and no one's even like, there's been other,
999
01:21:09.280 --> 01:21:09.780
like,
1000
01:21:11.200 --> 01:21:18.100
other companies have taken their code and made their own samurai wallet, but it's been for, you know, different coins that aren't on Bitcoin.
1001
01:21:19.105 --> 01:21:22.324
Obviously, like, that's not, like, a threat to SamRite Wallet, but, like,
1002
01:21:22.945 --> 01:21:24.724
if someone did, who cares?
1003
01:21:25.185 --> 01:21:27.445
SamRite Wallet has has a strong community.
1004
01:21:27.810 --> 01:21:30.070
You know, Umbrell has a strong community.
1005
01:21:30.530 --> 01:21:31.170
You know,
1006
01:21:31.570 --> 01:21:33.830
you know, Minode has a strong community.
1007
01:21:34.450 --> 01:21:48.840
Why would you worry about someone taking your code? And on top of that, like, it blow it it kinda it it makes me feel, like, kinda weird when I go to think about it, especially when you're talking about nodes. Right? Like, you're talking about, like, you're adding other people's code
1008
01:21:49.540 --> 01:21:50.520
to your code,
1009
01:21:51.219 --> 01:21:54.655
and you wanna claim, you know, you wanna claim something.
1010
01:21:55.675 --> 01:21:58.815
I was talking to one of the developers of mempool,
1011
01:21:59.275 --> 01:22:00.335
and he was like,
1012
01:22:00.950 --> 01:22:06.330
what? I'm I'm not gonna get his name, and it, but he was like, I have to pay a premium
1013
01:22:06.790 --> 01:22:08.890
to use my own code on my node.
1014
01:22:09.364 --> 01:22:11.145
How how absurd is that? You
1015
01:22:11.525 --> 01:22:15.545
know what I mean? Like, how absurd is the fact that, like, you can't just
1016
01:22:15.925 --> 01:22:17.145
utilize the code
1017
01:22:17.765 --> 01:22:22.090
1018
01:22:23.349 --> 01:22:24.010
I agree.
1019
01:22:24.389 --> 01:22:25.289
You know, ultimately
1020
01:22:25.989 --> 01:22:36.530
look. Citadel dispatch is a show about free open source software. Like, it's a it's a power of free open source software. So I agree. And I'm just I want it to be clear that I'm playing devil's advocate. Right? But in practice,
1021
01:22:37.550 --> 01:22:42.690
really, it doesn't if if if your source viewable, it doesn't matter if your if your license says,
1022
01:22:44.315 --> 01:22:49.295
the what really matters with your license if it says you can commercially use it however the fuck you want,
1023
01:22:49.915 --> 01:22:50.415
because,
1024
01:22:50.840 --> 01:23:02.215
personally, I can just I'm gonna use your code, and there's nothing you can do. Like, in practice, like, no one's gonna be able to enforce that shit. Right? So so really what you're saying is you're saying, like, a law abiding individual
1025
01:23:02.595 --> 01:23:03.895
can't create
1026
01:23:04.195 --> 01:23:06.535
a a company based off of this thing.
1027
01:23:07.880 --> 01:23:14.380
1028
01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:19.005
and you actually are you have a business model based on your open source software,
1029
01:23:19.784 --> 01:23:22.844
you should have lawyers that are ready to
1030
01:23:23.360 --> 01:23:25.460
prosecute if you need to. Right? Like, say,
1031
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:40.165
say, someone forks Ronan. I mean, I don't have lawyers on, so you guys can fork it. I'm not gonna be able to do shit about it. It, but say, you know, say that I did and and I have a business model based on that, based on, let's say, a premium, right,
1032
01:23:41.380 --> 01:23:43.880
which is not our thing. But if we had a premium
1033
01:23:44.340 --> 01:23:44.840
and
1034
01:23:45.380 --> 01:23:49.080
someone just forked it and was like, oh, we're gonna do the same thing, but we're gonna charge,
1035
01:23:49.405 --> 01:23:55.105
you know, 50% less. And we're gonna undercut them, but we're gonna offer the exact same thing. Right?
1036
01:23:56.285 --> 01:24:05.945
Yeah. I I would have lawyers that that would be able to fight me for it, you know, but it it ultimately depends. Right? It depends on how they implement the license. It depends on how everything else works.
1037
01:24:06.985 --> 01:24:08.844
But, ultimately, like, there is,
1038
01:24:09.145 --> 01:24:12.045
you know, there's a lot of nuances in licensing,
1039
01:24:12.824 --> 01:24:16.100
and you can if you're a developer, you can use that to your,
1040
01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:18.100
you know, to your benefit
1041
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:19.300
without
1042
01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:21.620
degrading the fact that you are
1043
01:24:22.800 --> 01:24:28.535
the fact that you are open source. You know, you want it to be the whole purpose, like I said, to go back from the beginning,
1044
01:24:28.835 --> 01:24:30.135
the whole purpose
1045
01:24:30.515 --> 01:24:31.895
of open source software
1046
01:24:32.370 --> 01:24:40.070
is that everybody grows and everyone gets better because no matter the no matter what company it is. Right? So say that
1047
01:24:40.415 --> 01:24:48.675
say you, Matt Odell, decided to fork Ronin and, you know, you wanted to add Lightning and you wanna do all this other stuff because I refuse to do it. Right?
1048
01:24:49.210 --> 01:25:05.475
You're gonna have your own user base. You're gonna have your own people, and then I'm gonna have my own people that disagree with your outlook on it. And that's how that's how we end up. I mean, there are operating systems that are literally that. Right? Fedora versus Red Hat. You know, it's the same thing.
1049
01:25:05.850 --> 01:25:06.750
You know? So,
1050
01:25:07.530 --> 01:25:13.150
ultimately, like, yeah, do you lose customers? Sure. But does, like, the world get better because of it? Yes.
1051
01:25:13.595 --> 01:25:15.775
You know, like, competition drives,
1052
01:25:16.155 --> 01:25:16.815
you know,
1053
01:25:17.115 --> 01:25:17.935
you know, drives,
1054
01:25:18.555 --> 01:25:19.055
innovation.
1055
01:25:19.595 --> 01:25:36.935
So why are we not accepting that? You know? Yeah. Like, just accept the competition and and say, you know, screw it. Like, let let's go to battle. Competition is good. Is it yeah. Competition is what we're here about. Zelkovic, I mean, you put it exactly how I mean, I I agree with everything you said. Right? I I I I don't,
1056
01:25:39.860 --> 01:25:47.960
1057
01:25:48.745 --> 01:25:49.245
intentionally
1058
01:25:49.625 --> 01:25:54.125
moved my life away from. Right? Like, I don't wanna deal with bureaucracy. That's why I have Bitcoin.
1059
01:25:54.425 --> 01:25:57.165
Right? Like, the this whole idea of open source,
1060
01:25:58.320 --> 01:25:59.060
this movement
1061
01:25:59.679 --> 01:26:07.615
is is bigger than just Bitcoin. It's the idea that we can all build on shared values. Right? That we can build on shared innovation, and then you don't have,
1062
01:26:08.635 --> 01:26:10.575
the Googles and the Apples of the world,
1063
01:26:11.195 --> 01:26:16.720
dictating what you can work on and what you can't work on. And, yes, as you add restrictions to the software,
1064
01:26:17.100 --> 01:26:22.000
then we're getting that on on smaller scales in Bitcoin, and and and you don't wanna see it.
1065
01:26:23.475 --> 01:26:25.015
I would argue that
1066
01:26:25.555 --> 01:26:29.735
I think where my hard line is is source viewable. I think, you know,
1067
01:26:31.080 --> 01:26:35.260
it's fucked up, but but it's the truth. It's, like, especially in shit corner land,
1068
01:26:35.640 --> 01:26:38.540
we have lots of wallets that are not even source viewable.
1069
01:26:39.645 --> 01:26:42.145
So if it's sourced viewable, at least you can fucking
1070
01:26:43.005 --> 01:26:44.385
break any kind of
1071
01:26:44.845 --> 01:26:46.465
bullshit licensing they have,
1072
01:26:48.160 --> 01:26:55.460
and make them go enforce it on an individual basis. But I do agree that, ultimately, what we really wanna support is just straight Libre,
1073
01:26:56.240 --> 01:26:57.540
free open source software.
1074
01:27:00.165 --> 01:27:02.025
1075
01:27:02.565 --> 01:27:11.700
No. I mean and it goes with, like, everything. Right? I mean, I recently made a switch, and it doesn't just have to be about Bitcoin. You know? Like, I recently made a switch over to,
1076
01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:15.220
Calix OS. You know what I mean? Like,
1077
01:27:17.164 --> 01:27:19.344
there it's the same thing. So
1078
01:27:19.804 --> 01:27:20.304
it's
1079
01:27:21.164 --> 01:27:24.304
you need to understand if you're if you're the user, right,
1080
01:27:24.690 --> 01:27:27.270
pick what you want, pick who you trust.
1081
01:27:27.890 --> 01:27:32.630
Ultimately, like, if like, cold cards cold card product is solid.
1082
01:27:32.965 --> 01:27:34.344
You know, if, like,
1083
01:27:34.885 --> 01:27:38.824
you wanna see a change in their license because you believe in the whole
1084
01:27:39.125 --> 01:27:40.905
free open source software idea,
1085
01:27:42.679 --> 01:27:50.219
You know, make that you vocalize that. But, otherwise, like, you know, use what you trust. That's really what it comes down to. Use who you trust,
1086
01:27:51.855 --> 01:27:58.995
because, you know, when you talk to, like, normal people about free open source software, I was I was talking to my wife about it, and she was just like, so
1087
01:27:59.760 --> 01:28:11.745
what makes it different? I was like, well, I mean, like, it's it's our product. Like, people trust us. And she's like, that's really is that it? Because anybody can just take your code and just do whatever they want with it. And I was like, yeah.
1088
01:28:12.365 --> 01:28:20.040
She's like, that's it? And I was like, yeah. Well, like, it is what it is. You know? As long as they're they have the same licensing, they can do the same thing.
1089
01:28:20.340 --> 01:28:23.160
And Is it You know? It's crazy to think about.
1090
01:28:24.035 --> 01:28:25.475
1091
01:28:27.795 --> 01:28:35.650
so I'm I'm loving this conversation. Okay. So so so I do agree that I think I think ultimately, like, it just comes down to insecurity, and I've
1092
01:28:36.030 --> 01:28:52.430
I've specifically told Rodolfo this a bunch of times. It's like, you hit the nail on the head right there, man. You're you're best in class. Like, you're best in class. It doesn't matter. Like, you could have a 1000000 competitors that all copy your same exact code, and you're still cold card. Like, why are you gonna create an issue out of nothing?
1093
01:28:52.969 --> 01:29:00.205
Why are you gonna create a concern out of out of the hard cores that are free open source till till they die, rightfully so,
1094
01:29:01.145 --> 01:29:07.380
and and create an issue out of that when when you're the leader of the pack? And he shouldn't have done that. And I hope he's listening to this right now,
1095
01:29:08.160 --> 01:29:10.980
rather than Clubhouse, and and and he's considering it.
1096
01:29:12.160 --> 01:29:12.980
That said,
1097
01:29:13.595 --> 01:29:16.415
to the Rodolfas of the world You know You know
1098
01:29:16.955 --> 01:29:17.855
1099
01:29:18.235 --> 01:29:24.960
1100
01:29:25.500 --> 01:29:27.440
What do you say to the people who say
1101
01:29:27.900 --> 01:29:30.000
that open source software is
1102
01:29:31.265 --> 01:29:33.285
is is socialism, is communism,
1103
01:29:33.905 --> 01:29:35.925
that free open source software is communism?
1104
01:29:39.745 --> 01:29:40.405
1105
01:29:41.410 --> 01:29:45.350
1106
01:29:45.810 --> 01:29:52.135
It's open source, and we don't have to worry about someone controlling it. It has censorship resistant, you know, permissionless. Right?
1107
01:29:52.755 --> 01:29:57.494
Open source code is code that people can run however they want. Right?
1108
01:29:57.960 --> 01:30:01.340
People can study the code. They can study if they have vulnerabilities.
1109
01:30:01.880 --> 01:30:02.860
This is awesome.
1110
01:30:03.239 --> 01:30:09.975
You can't do that with closed source software. You're running Windows. You don't know what the hell is happening back there. Okay?
1111
01:30:10.355 --> 01:30:15.495
With free open source, you can go ahead and distribute it how you want. You can copy it.
1112
01:30:15.990 --> 01:30:19.610
You can modify it however the hell you want. You can, you know, you can modify,
1113
01:30:20.470 --> 01:30:21.290
Google Chrome
1114
01:30:21.990 --> 01:30:42.619
browser, however you want. You can take out the freaking menus however you want. And that's the freedom of open source software. You can is you can go ahead and modify. It's like taking a car and just putting a different engine in it. Taking a car and putting tinted windows, putting a different stereo in it. That's awesome that we can do that with software, you know, and and and that's an amazing thing.
1115
01:30:42.925 --> 01:30:46.145
And it helps with our privacy. It helps with our security.
1116
01:30:46.845 --> 01:30:48.065
And I think that,
1117
01:30:48.525 --> 01:30:51.745
you know, closed cell software is just the fucking devil.
1118
01:30:55.020 --> 01:31:01.360
1119
01:31:02.015 --> 01:31:08.835
I think you take away any kind of inherent advantages that any individual has, and you just operate on pure capitalism.
1120
01:31:09.770 --> 01:31:16.270
And that that's what a free open source software is to me. So I I I don't think it is incompatible with my worldview,
1121
01:31:17.185 --> 01:31:18.645
and I hope that more projects
1122
01:31:19.105 --> 01:31:31.210
opt to use licenses like Ronin Dojo and Samura Wallet I've chosen to use that is just completely copy left, which honestly, I hate the term copy left, but just this idea that anyone can use the code,
1123
01:31:31.525 --> 01:31:42.170
anyone can respect the code, anyone can use the code. They can do whatever the fuck they wanna do with the code. We're not gonna get any lawyers involved. We're not gonna get any regulators involved. We don't care what nation you're in when you make the fucking
1124
01:31:42.710 --> 01:31:43.210
software.
1125
01:31:43.750 --> 01:32:01.800
Like, fuck this, all this shit. Like, code is code. We're gonna use this code. We're gonna prove the code. We're gonna make it better. We're gonna run this shit, and that's it. Right? Like, fuck all this other shit. It's all noise. So I just wanna be I wanna be clear here that, you know, where does Matt stand? Where does Sidhula Dispatch stand? That's where they stand.
1126
01:32:03.059 --> 01:32:05.079
We have our good friend of the show,
1127
01:32:05.380 --> 01:32:05.880
Shinobi,
1128
01:32:07.255 --> 01:32:11.515
is is is coming at me on Twitter right now about this idea
1129
01:32:12.614 --> 01:32:13.114
that
1130
01:32:13.495 --> 01:32:13.995
remixers
1131
01:32:14.455 --> 01:32:15.835
in in samurai
1132
01:32:17.079 --> 01:32:19.099
don't increase the anonymity set
1133
01:32:19.480 --> 01:32:20.460
if if
1134
01:32:21.239 --> 01:32:24.780
if you are one of the individuals that aren't coin joining.
1135
01:32:27.425 --> 01:32:31.585
Why is this wrong? Like, I I I think this is simple logic. Am I
1136
01:32:32.610 --> 01:32:43.015
what am I missing here? How do we explain this better to the freaks? This idea that if a participant in your coin join round then goes on to do another coin join round, the probability
1137
01:32:44.035 --> 01:32:46.775
percentage of which your output is
1138
01:32:47.315 --> 01:32:47.815
increases
1139
01:32:48.195 --> 01:32:50.455
should be a very simple concept.
1140
01:32:51.600 --> 01:33:03.675
Where am I what am I missing here? You're not missing anything. And if I could be speaking in all caps right right now, I would be. Oh, there we go. Embrace the cap. Let the caps flow through you.
1141
01:33:04.215 --> 01:33:08.980
1142
01:33:09.519 --> 01:33:14.500
1143
01:33:15.039 --> 01:33:22.005
As far as this show is concerned, I started caps. No one no one had ever decided that they were gonna use all caps before me.
1144
01:33:22.385 --> 01:33:25.445
1145
01:33:25.825 --> 01:33:27.205
Shouldn't there's all caps.
1146
01:33:27.599 --> 01:33:37.305
Maybe there's all caps to yell at people on Twitter. So Matt, you forked the license for all caps. Look at look at the fake in the comments. Look at the freaking All caps. Shinobi has a copyright
1147
01:33:37.685 --> 01:33:39.545
on all caps speaking.
1148
01:33:40.005 --> 01:33:40.505
Anyways,
1149
01:33:41.285 --> 01:33:43.785
I okay. So here's my thing. Right?
1150
01:33:44.165 --> 01:33:50.630
He's saying it it equal outputs does and not does not give you what so if you don't remix, it does not give you
1151
01:33:50.930 --> 01:33:53.910
1152
01:33:54.450 --> 01:33:54.950
remix.
1153
01:33:55.755 --> 01:33:57.295
1154
01:33:57.755 --> 01:34:01.454
Right? Because if if I could, like, show on a board right now, right,
1155
01:34:01.755 --> 01:34:06.170
you are 1 of 5 that comes out. So if anyone in those 14
1156
01:34:06.550 --> 01:34:07.050
remixes,
1157
01:34:07.750 --> 01:34:12.650
no one can tell because those those deterministic lengths from your TX 0, your premix.
1158
01:34:13.095 --> 01:34:25.440
Right? No one could tell which one you are. So one of those 5 gets remixed, not one not being you. They get remixed. How does anyone outside observer looking at it can see, hey, that person is
1159
01:34:25.820 --> 01:34:26.320
Zelco.
1160
01:34:26.780 --> 01:34:38.920
Right? They can't. So now you went from 4 to 9. Right? Because that one, one of those other 4 people got remixed. So now you went to 9 possible outcomes.
1161
01:34:39.380 --> 01:34:43.080
K? So and then, say, another one from your initial
1162
01:34:43.380 --> 01:34:44.200
your initial,
1163
01:34:44.660 --> 01:34:48.905
mix gets remixed. Alright. Cool. So now you went from 9
1164
01:34:49.285 --> 01:34:49.785
to
1165
01:34:50.325 --> 01:34:50.825
14.
1166
01:34:51.285 --> 01:34:56.720
Right? And that's before. This is saying that you haven't remixed at all. You're just lucky that other people have remixed.
1167
01:34:57.100 --> 01:35:03.600
And then out of that, out of either of those 2, we'll say, Echelon 2 or tier 2 remixes
1168
01:35:04.845 --> 01:35:07.105
of people that were not necessarily you,
1169
01:35:07.965 --> 01:35:12.520
2 other people remixed. So now you're looking at another 20. Right? So that's 34.
1170
01:35:12.980 --> 01:35:18.600
And then from that second one that I went to, I really wish I had a diagram because this will make it look so much better. But
1171
01:35:19.205 --> 01:35:23.465
you we see that that extrapolates, and that's a a literally a a
1172
01:35:24.165 --> 01:35:27.305
perfect example of why that 0 that equal output
1173
01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:28.620
is so important.
1174
01:35:29.000 --> 01:35:36.860
Right? That equal output means that no one can see and no one can tell who is who and where who's getting remixed and who's not getting remixed.
1175
01:35:37.195 --> 01:35:39.054
The only time that you don't get
1176
01:35:39.435 --> 01:35:40.815
forward looking anonymity
1177
01:35:41.435 --> 01:35:55.585
is the moment that you move your coins out of the pool. So the moment that you spend, the moment that you send out to cold storage or whatever, which again is fine. Everyone has their own thing. I'm all for spending. I'm all for sending wherever you want. But the moment that you come out of there,
1178
01:35:55.885 --> 01:35:57.825
that's one less UTXO
1179
01:35:58.205 --> 01:35:59.825
that is possible on the pool,
1180
01:36:00.205 --> 01:36:02.225
and that's fine. But that's why it's encouraged,
1181
01:36:02.690 --> 01:36:06.389
right, to remix as long as you can. Someone in the chat asked earlier,
1182
01:36:06.770 --> 01:36:08.550
how long should I remix for,
1183
01:36:09.250 --> 01:36:13.115
and then when should I draw my coins out? And I'll just caveat into that answer,
1184
01:36:14.215 --> 01:36:22.640
which my answer in the chat was, hey. You know, remix for however long that you feel like you should. I know it's not, like, an actual answer.
1185
01:36:22.940 --> 01:36:34.434
Right? But determine what a good time is for you. Say you wanna wait, you know, 3 months or 2 months or, you know, 2 weeks, you know, and then say you mixed 1 whole Bitcoin. Right?
1186
01:36:34.735 --> 01:36:37.635
Send a little bit at a time at different varying,
1187
01:36:38.895 --> 01:36:39.395
different
1188
01:36:39.950 --> 01:36:42.050
times. Right? So say you send
1189
01:36:42.670 --> 01:36:43.570
point 04
1190
01:36:44.270 --> 01:36:49.175
in 3 weeks after that, and then you wait 2 weeks, and then you send 0.02,
1191
01:36:49.475 --> 01:36:53.655
and then so on and so forth. You send them out at different times. But,
1192
01:36:54.610 --> 01:37:03.679
1193
01:37:06.675 --> 01:37:13.575
backward looking for the majority of people is coming straight from a KYC exchange, and they have no fucking privacy whatsoever backward looking.
1194
01:37:13.890 --> 01:37:17.909
So let's try and be practical here and look forward looking.
1195
01:37:18.210 --> 01:37:19.909
Shinobi is also claiming
1196
01:37:20.449 --> 01:37:26.025
that I am misrepresenting him even though I am explaining what he is commenting live
1197
01:37:26.645 --> 01:37:30.825
while we have a live comment section that is broadcast to everyone
1198
01:37:31.500 --> 01:37:34.239
in this fucking show that no other show has.
1199
01:37:34.940 --> 01:37:48.494
So fuck you on that regard, Shinobi. I've been very practical with you. I consider you a friend. I wish you just didn't treat me in a way that was, you know, I I I I just feel like you're you're you're treating me like a bad actor
1200
01:37:48.890 --> 01:37:53.470
when I've I've tried to to employ this here. I've I've I've I've tried to
1201
01:37:54.250 --> 01:37:56.510
talk about all these different nuances here,
1202
01:37:57.495 --> 01:38:05.835
and and and and the the fact of the matter is fucking clear on ZeroLink is is if someone else remixes in your round,
1203
01:38:06.199 --> 01:38:16.885
obviously, that increases your anonymity set. They the the it's a probability game. You have a probability game in Bitcoin. When you're tracking Bitcoin, it's a probability game. You're deciding
1204
01:38:17.265 --> 01:38:22.645
this person is 72% likely of going down this path. And if you're in that situation
1205
01:38:23.340 --> 01:38:24.800
and you have other people
1206
01:38:25.180 --> 01:38:27.360
that are in your probability graph
1207
01:38:27.980 --> 01:38:42.410
that are increasing their probability, then your probability increases. It's basic it's basic logic. It's a very simple concept. You if if I remix with you and then Zelko goes and remixes with, like, 15 different people, I benefit from Zelco.
1208
01:38:43.270 --> 01:38:43.770
1209
01:38:44.230 --> 01:38:54.795
I mean, he's he doesn't understand the difference between and, I mean, he's already responded to me, but I I've learned long ago to not let Shinobi dictate how I feel,
1210
01:38:55.335 --> 01:38:56.795
because he's genuinely
1211
01:38:57.415 --> 01:38:57.915
biased,
1212
01:38:58.290 --> 01:38:58.790
and,
1213
01:38:59.409 --> 01:39:02.710
I don't wanna call him an idiot because I'm sure he's smart in other areas,
1214
01:39:03.250 --> 01:39:06.630
but he's, he lets his bias and he lets his
1215
01:39:07.035 --> 01:39:08.335
his emotions feel,
1216
01:39:09.035 --> 01:39:10.255
feel where it comes from.
1217
01:39:10.635 --> 01:39:11.215
I mean,
1218
01:39:11.595 --> 01:39:12.095
6102
1219
01:39:12.475 --> 01:39:19.760
already said it. Right? Like, he's talking about backwards anonymity, which is hard set. You You can't talk about He's he's he's he's
1220
01:39:21.580 --> 01:39:33.520
1221
01:39:34.080 --> 01:39:56.530
and and it's unfortunate that this is where we had to end up. You know? But send them over to me. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna help him set up Bowman's calculator. Okay? I'll I'll I'll help him set it up. It's it's it's it's it's unfortunate that someone that I had respect for decides that they want to just act in bad faith over and over again just because I called them out once. And and it is what it is,
1222
01:39:57.630 --> 01:40:04.105
but but here we are. So, I mean, let let's let's just drop all of this. It's not fucking worth our time.
1223
01:40:04.485 --> 01:40:06.825
The point is, if you wanna look at the logic,
1224
01:40:07.700 --> 01:40:10.040
if you use actually proper ZERELINK,
1225
01:40:10.820 --> 01:40:13.000
other people mixing should improve
1226
01:40:13.300 --> 01:40:14.120
your privacy
1227
01:40:14.635 --> 01:40:19.055
because it increases the probability that you could be any of those other fucking UTXOs.
1228
01:40:20.315 --> 01:40:22.895
That is what it is. That is just basic math.
1229
01:40:24.010 --> 01:40:27.230
1230
01:40:27.690 --> 01:40:29.309
you know, get under your skin.
1231
01:40:29.849 --> 01:40:36.585
I've gone to battle as well as many of the other samurai guys, gone to battle with him, and it's hopeless. And it's
1232
01:40:38.380 --> 01:40:41.680
and it's funny. And, you know, like, after a while, you know, you go through
1233
01:40:42.140 --> 01:40:46.720
a samurai users, dedicated samurai users, a lot of people think it's, like, cult like following.
1234
01:40:47.785 --> 01:40:50.925
It's more that family that you end up having. Right? Like,
1235
01:40:51.785 --> 01:40:53.245
you see people attack,
1236
01:40:54.185 --> 01:40:56.840
attack the code that you know is good. Right?
1237
01:40:57.400 --> 01:41:00.699
We've seen this with whether it's mister Hodel or whether it's Shinobi.
1238
01:41:01.239 --> 01:41:03.500
You see them attack stuff, and even, like
1239
01:41:03.960 --> 01:41:06.825
like, I've never been more frustrated as a person that works
1240
01:41:07.305 --> 01:41:08.365
like, has dedicated,
1241
01:41:08.905 --> 01:41:11.165
like, 3 years now to
1242
01:41:11.865 --> 01:41:12.365
bringing
1243
01:41:12.905 --> 01:41:15.965
Jojo to as many people as I can. Right?
1244
01:41:16.630 --> 01:41:23.050
Strictly because I believe in it. Right? Because I believe in the idea of running your own node. You know, an added effect is that,
1245
01:41:23.910 --> 01:41:29.995
an added effect is that no one is or the the whole, like, oh, Samura, I can see your your
1246
01:41:30.455 --> 01:41:37.350
x bulbs or whatever. Like, yeah. No shit. I mean, like, that's the same as any node like, any wallet that you use that you're not running your node.
1247
01:41:37.730 --> 01:41:42.790
But, you know, they make they make all these different claims, and I'm like, dude, there are so many nodes
1248
01:41:43.165 --> 01:41:47.744
that run Dojo. Like, even now, we have Umbrel that added it. Right? So you have Umbrel,
1249
01:41:48.125 --> 01:41:49.425
nodal, Ronin,
1250
01:41:49.804 --> 01:41:50.304
Mynoo,
1251
01:41:50.810 --> 01:41:57.230
1252
01:41:58.575 --> 01:42:05.955
You're right to be confused and scared. Your privacy sucks. You're just failing in privacy in every respect in Bitcoin. Okay?
1253
01:42:07.159 --> 01:42:13.260
Don't don't let this argument scare you off, though. Like, you will figure it out. You'll make it happen,
1254
01:42:15.035 --> 01:42:21.195
slowly and surely. You just have to trust yourself, and you just have to, like, be diligent about it. But,
1255
01:42:21.675 --> 01:42:23.135
to be absolutely clear,
1256
01:42:23.840 --> 01:42:24.980
if and and
1257
01:42:25.600 --> 01:42:35.615
I know Zelco and, like, well, will disagree with me here. If you use CoinJoin of any sort, I think it's a net improvement. If you seek out any kind of privacy benefit, I think it's a net improvement.
1258
01:42:36.155 --> 01:42:40.175
Use your own node. Try and learn how to use the different CoinJoin implementations.
1259
01:42:40.690 --> 01:42:43.429
I think Whirlpool is strictly the best implementation.
1260
01:42:43.969 --> 01:42:49.750
I think you should use the Samura Stack. But if you're if you're a Bitcoiner and you're using any kind of
1261
01:42:50.465 --> 01:42:50.965
CoinJoin
1262
01:42:51.505 --> 01:42:52.005
implementation,
1263
01:42:52.385 --> 01:42:59.684
you're on the right track. You're using Lightning, you're on the right track. These these are these are more advanced user features, and these are things you need to learn now
1264
01:43:00.020 --> 01:43:02.040
before your government tries to
1265
01:43:02.580 --> 01:43:04.440
come down and and and
1266
01:43:04.900 --> 01:43:13.035
and and stop you from using these things in a in a more free way. Man, I can't agree with you more. I don't wanna discourage people. I don't want I don't want people to be discouraged
1267
01:43:13.495 --> 01:43:23.090
1268
01:43:23.870 --> 01:43:25.170
The best privacy
1269
01:43:25.745 --> 01:43:28.725
is to keep all your Bitcoin in Coinbase. Okay, guys?
1270
01:43:29.425 --> 01:43:30.405
No. In Coinbase,
1271
01:43:30.945 --> 01:43:31.925
you'll be safe.
1272
01:43:32.225 --> 01:43:33.205
1273
01:43:34.350 --> 01:43:38.690
1274
01:43:41.935 --> 01:43:42.415
Yeah. I,
1275
01:43:42.975 --> 01:43:47.395
1276
01:43:48.015 --> 01:43:48.515
institution.
1277
01:43:49.349 --> 01:43:57.849
That's for sure. Right? But with the external privacy, you get some external privacy. I do agree with that, but fuck you for even bringing them.
1278
01:43:59.095 --> 01:44:00.875
1279
01:44:01.255 --> 01:44:08.475
Like, everyone should be using the tools to I mean, like, that's diverter's thing. Right? Use the tools. He's not gonna be the fucking tools, guys.
1280
01:44:08.910 --> 01:44:21.155
Use use everything that we talked about. But, ultimately, like, if you are a person that is super confused right now and you are, like, I don't understand the CoinJoin debate. I don't understand which one to use.
1281
01:44:21.535 --> 01:44:22.435
I don't understand
1282
01:44:23.695 --> 01:44:24.675
why I should use
1283
01:44:25.270 --> 01:44:29.130
why I should use them. Number 1, if you don't know why to use them, you haven't been listening to,
1284
01:44:29.989 --> 01:44:31.130
to SITO dispatch
1285
01:44:31.430 --> 01:44:33.735
or TFTC, so shame on you.
1286
01:44:34.295 --> 01:44:39.514
But second thing is if you're really not sure which one to do, like,
1287
01:44:39.895 --> 01:44:42.074
just play with them. Like, go on Testnet,
1288
01:44:42.500 --> 01:44:46.520
test each one, and then look at the transactions. Like, you have to
1289
01:44:47.060 --> 01:44:49.880
you know, privacy and security is,
1290
01:44:50.304 --> 01:44:57.205
like, I I think you say it best, Matt. Like, it's a small step forward. Every time that you go to do something, you have to take the small steps forward.
1291
01:44:57.660 --> 01:45:03.440
So if you are you actually care about your privacy and you care about the the outcomes of your transactions,
1292
01:45:03.820 --> 01:45:08.224
right, in Bitcoin, you need to you need to play around and see which one is best. And then
1293
01:45:08.605 --> 01:45:23.730
and then you need to be thinking and asking other people, like, the different threat models. Matt brings up Matt, you're, like, great at threat models. I'll give you that. Like, you're really good at thing outside the box as far as, like, why things would be a different threat model because I don't always think that way. But
1294
01:45:25.575 --> 01:45:34.075
what what people need to do is, like, if you're not sure and and this is generally what happens when I get tired of debating with someone about, like, why they should not use join market or
1295
01:45:34.510 --> 01:45:45.225
Wasabi. I'm like, dude, just go use it. Like, if you don't believe me, download it, go on Testnet, use it, and then look at your outcomes, and tell me why that that is better.
1296
01:45:45.525 --> 01:45:48.505
1297
01:45:48.930 --> 01:45:55.590
this is this is me versus BCash all over again. Okay? So it's like, I agree with the person 99%,
1298
01:45:56.610 --> 01:45:57.270
and then,
1299
01:45:57.855 --> 01:46:00.355
like, he was gonna be my brother. So so
1300
01:46:00.655 --> 01:46:03.875
here's the example. Okay? So I went to my lady's,
1301
01:46:04.335 --> 01:46:05.235
friend's wedding,
1302
01:46:06.490 --> 01:46:12.270
and there was a Bitcoiner there. Right? And I spent 3 hours to him, and we got along famously.
1303
01:46:12.705 --> 01:46:18.324
This guy was gonna be my future brother. It was amazing that I met him at my my lady's friend's wedding.
1304
01:46:18.625 --> 01:46:22.165
Didn't know anyone there. That's the coolest fucking thing ever. We agree on everything.
1305
01:46:23.550 --> 01:46:25.170
Turns out he was a b cacher.
1306
01:46:26.110 --> 01:46:29.410
Right? And we disagreed vehemently on that last 1%.
1307
01:46:31.295 --> 01:46:36.835
That's how I feel about people who use Wasabi or joint market. It's like, those people are my people.
1308
01:46:37.860 --> 01:46:41.880
Those people agree that Bitcoin privacy is of the utmost importance.
1309
01:46:43.380 --> 01:46:47.355
We just disagree on the final step. We disagree on that last
1310
01:46:48.375 --> 01:46:49.355
that last 1%.
1311
01:46:50.135 --> 01:46:57.540
1312
01:46:57.920 --> 01:47:02.285
once you realize that you've you that your privacy is kinda fucked,
1313
01:47:03.145 --> 01:47:07.405
you know, you it's okay. We still accept you. We're willing to forgive.
1314
01:47:08.880 --> 01:47:11.139
You know, it's not really the anger
1315
01:47:11.599 --> 01:47:12.900
and the frustration
1316
01:47:13.679 --> 01:47:14.179
towards,
1317
01:47:15.199 --> 01:47:16.659
towards those other implementations
1318
01:47:17.119 --> 01:47:28.320
isn't about it's it's honestly, like, 100%, it's not about the users. It's 0% about the users at all. So your people that are listening that, I know someone was talking about it,
1319
01:47:28.780 --> 01:47:29.600
in the chat,
1320
01:47:30.220 --> 01:47:33.920
and it's what he's saying, it it isn't relevant to what I'm saying, but
1321
01:47:34.425 --> 01:47:40.205
it's not bad. Like, we're not we're not mad at at users. We're mad at the developers who it's almost in
1322
01:47:42.185 --> 01:47:42.505
it's
1323
01:47:43.580 --> 01:47:49.599
they don't care. Like, what they're doing is reckless, in our opinion, at least in my opinion. What they do is reckless. Right?
1324
01:47:49.980 --> 01:47:54.405
And when you know that you have an our opinion. That it's hurting, it's hurting your users.
1325
01:47:55.345 --> 01:48:09.465
Yeah. Like, you're you're hurting your users. You know what I mean? Like, you are falsely and then you go out and you attack samurai wallet who's doing the right things. Right? Yeah. They they may be aggressive, and they might be willing to fight back. Right? But,
1326
01:48:10.965 --> 01:48:18.105
but they but they're not the other developers aren't looking out for their users. If you don't if you're a developer and you don't care about your users,
1327
01:48:18.630 --> 01:48:19.930
then you're not,
1328
01:48:20.310 --> 01:48:31.554
like, you're not doing the right thing. And it should really start with the fact that, like, you are your own user. Right? So if you're your own user, all these other things you notice, you see, and you fix.
1329
01:48:31.855 --> 01:48:35.855
1330
01:48:36.980 --> 01:48:40.760
I used and shield the fucking shit out of hubby.
1331
01:48:41.140 --> 01:48:46.705
I was the best shield that they ever could have asked for. They never paid a cent for it. I paid them.
1332
01:48:47.645 --> 01:48:48.145
Right?
1333
01:48:48.845 --> 01:48:56.030
And I realized that the implementation was broken. And I went to them and I was like, the implementation is broken, and they did not fucking fix it.
1334
01:48:57.610 --> 01:49:06.155
And here I am now telling people to use Whirlpool, you know. I'm not saying that Whirlpool is perfect. I'm saying if I think that Whirlpool is broken,
1335
01:49:06.614 --> 01:49:07.594
I will be outspoken
1336
01:49:08.054 --> 01:49:12.040
about Whirlpool being broken. And if they don't fix it, I will fucking
1337
01:49:12.660 --> 01:49:17.880
flip shits forever until they fucking fix it. And that's what I did with Wasabi,
1338
01:49:18.725 --> 01:49:23.945
And and that's that's as a user and a spokesperson because what happens with privacy technology,
1339
01:49:24.405 --> 01:49:26.665
if we don't have people using privacy technology,
1340
01:49:27.210 --> 01:49:34.909
privacy technology doesn't work. We need people to use it. Every single privacy technology, whether that's Tor or VPN or encryption
1341
01:49:35.210 --> 01:49:35.710
or
1342
01:49:36.035 --> 01:49:36.935
or CoinJoin,
1343
01:49:37.395 --> 01:49:38.535
is it requires
1344
01:49:38.915 --> 01:49:43.095
people to use it. We need a crowd to use it. If we don't have a crowd using it,
1345
01:49:44.330 --> 01:49:45.550
then it's just
1346
01:49:45.850 --> 01:49:47.390
me, Zelco, and Likewell
1347
01:49:48.090 --> 01:50:11.525
1348
01:50:12.864 --> 01:50:14.405
you know, when we see people,
1349
01:50:15.824 --> 01:50:16.885
when we see developers,
1350
01:50:17.540 --> 01:50:23.559
right, that sit in there I I like to think of developers sometimes because I'm I wouldn't consider myself the average developer,
1351
01:50:24.875 --> 01:50:27.295
mostly because I come from a nontechnical background.
1352
01:50:28.635 --> 01:50:37.239
You know, you see developers sit in their ivory tower and their egos get so big. Right? They get so inflated, and people pat them on the back and tell them that they're great.
1353
01:50:37.700 --> 01:50:38.280
And then
1354
01:50:38.900 --> 01:50:48.114
they to to be able to admit when they're wrong. We had we had a long discussion about this in one of our one of our chats where we did, like, a live stream in Telegram, but, like,
1355
01:50:50.000 --> 01:50:54.820
it it blows my mind that, like, you know, when it comes to your users in your product
1356
01:50:55.360 --> 01:50:58.340
as a developer, you need to be able to be humble
1357
01:50:58.695 --> 01:51:06.795
when it comes down to it. I know I know being humble is not always a thing, but you need to be able to step back and say, like, hey. Like, what we did was wrong.
1358
01:51:07.100 --> 01:51:09.600
Samurai Wallet or or whoever was right,
1359
01:51:09.980 --> 01:51:13.280
let's implement it. You know? Like, bit 47.
1360
01:51:13.739 --> 01:51:18.185
Like, why is that, like, why is that not a thing across all Why is that not a thing?
1361
01:51:18.885 --> 01:51:20.425
Because people because
1362
01:51:20.725 --> 01:51:23.705
the only wallet that has it is samurai wallet.
1363
01:51:24.119 --> 01:51:30.940
1364
01:51:31.400 --> 01:51:32.699
that I am probably
1365
01:51:33.665 --> 01:51:34.565
one of
1366
01:51:35.265 --> 01:51:39.125
200, 300 people who have used both lightning and liquid.
1367
01:51:39.665 --> 01:51:45.260
Like, that's a I think that's a good example. And I I realized this recently because Grubles was asking questions
1368
01:51:45.720 --> 01:51:51.420
about Lightning, and we all know he uses Liquid. Like, he's our Blockstream boy. I we all know he uses Liquid.
1369
01:51:52.095 --> 01:51:53.475
He doesn't use Lightning.
1370
01:51:54.255 --> 01:52:05.520
He just used Lightning for the first time, and there's plenty of people on the opposite side that have never used Liquid. And there's plenty of people that are commenting about CoinJoin that have never used CoinJoin, have never used either implementation,
1371
01:52:06.140 --> 01:52:08.080
have never used any of the 3 implementations.
1372
01:52:08.795 --> 01:52:11.695
So here I am sitting with using all 3 implementations.
1373
01:52:12.315 --> 01:52:24.800
I've used Lightning. I've used Liquid. It's like I have a superpower. It's like all of a sudden I fucking use the things that we're talking about, so I'm able to fucking talk about them. Now I have a Shinobi in here saying that I was being misleading
1374
01:52:25.340 --> 01:52:27.760
about saying that users are UTXOs.
1375
01:52:28.625 --> 01:52:30.485
One of the cool things about Whirlpool,
1376
01:52:30.945 --> 01:52:32.885
to be absolutely fucking clear,
1377
01:52:33.264 --> 01:52:39.580
is that with Whirlpool, the way they they sanitize the transactions before they go into the CoinJoin
1378
01:52:40.120 --> 01:52:42.219
is they set it up in a way that the the
1379
01:52:42.679 --> 01:52:43.340
the more
1380
01:52:43.719 --> 01:52:51.594
funds you come in with, they'll lower your fee. And any funds they come in with at the same time can be considered the same user,
1381
01:52:51.895 --> 01:52:53.275
which creates this incentive
1382
01:52:53.990 --> 01:53:10.990
where where a good user is going to basically docks their transactions as all of their own, and they won't be included in the same round. So you get separated amongst other rounds because you're considered as the same user even though it's simply a UTXO. It's a UTXO coming in.
1383
01:53:12.030 --> 01:53:20.975
So that's a very important point. So I I I do applaud Shenobi for having us bring that up to the freaks. And if the freaks didn't realize that, it's important for them to realize that.
1384
01:53:23.455 --> 01:53:24.035
I mean,
1385
01:53:25.375 --> 01:53:29.395
do you guys have any other comments on this subject, or should we move on to the next subject?
1386
01:53:32.150 --> 01:53:37.690
1387
01:53:39.305 --> 01:53:42.525
I see, is there a balance comparison? It's from James Viggie.
1388
01:53:42.905 --> 01:53:48.360
Is there a balance comparison of the 2 implementation that explains the trade offs or exposes the fatal flaw, etcetera?
1389
01:53:48.820 --> 01:53:52.280
Genuine question looking for resources to understand the debate.
1390
01:53:53.140 --> 01:53:53.640
So
1391
01:53:54.455 --> 01:53:57.835
I would say with, with that, the balanced comparison,
1392
01:53:58.935 --> 01:54:02.795
there's been a lot of there's been research papers done by OXD Research,
1393
01:54:03.230 --> 01:54:08.110
although you may seem it's biased, so it's fine. It is biased, to be honest. How many
1394
01:54:08.670 --> 01:54:11.230
it's owned by Sam or a wallet, but I would go towards
1395
01:54:12.715 --> 01:54:14.574
I would take a look at 6102's
1396
01:54:14.875 --> 01:54:16.014
work. So 6102,
1397
01:54:16.315 --> 01:54:17.695
big shout out. I mean,
1398
01:54:18.474 --> 01:54:18.974
I've
1399
01:54:20.155 --> 01:54:25.520
I've been I've been friends with a guy for a while and worked with him for a long time, but he he was
1400
01:54:26.060 --> 01:54:27.520
a Wasabi, like,
1401
01:54:28.140 --> 01:54:28.640
documentation
1402
01:54:29.260 --> 01:54:29.760
contributor.
1403
01:54:30.485 --> 01:54:32.585
And so he knows the ins and outs of Wasabi
1404
01:54:32.965 --> 01:54:39.785
and then was, you know, also working with Samurowel to also address issues or implement new things and
1405
01:54:40.770 --> 01:54:46.630
was a shill for that as well. So he he's seen both sides and joined market. So he's done the research,
1406
01:54:47.570 --> 01:54:49.270
from an unbiased perspective.
1407
01:54:50.195 --> 01:54:53.015
At least in my opinion, as unbiased as I can see it.
1408
01:54:53.475 --> 01:54:55.255
So he's got the research there.
1409
01:54:55.875 --> 01:55:02.730
James, if you wanna go take a look at his stuff, hopefully, he'll post he's listening, and he'll post his, his links.
1410
01:55:03.190 --> 01:55:03.690
But,
1411
01:55:04.150 --> 01:55:06.730
yeah, I mean, there's it's not a real comparison.
1412
01:55:07.055 --> 01:55:07.535
Like, there's no
1413
01:55:09.295 --> 01:55:15.635
1414
01:55:17.320 --> 01:55:21.100
61 and 2 has coin join overview. He just posted it in the Twitch
1415
01:55:23.320 --> 01:55:25.420
chat. Let me see if I can copy this.
1416
01:55:26.074 --> 01:55:31.295
Yeah. I was about to do this. I'm gonna try and copy it over to the other chats if possible. Let me see here.
1417
01:55:31.755 --> 01:55:36.920
1418
01:55:39.620 --> 01:55:40.500
1419
01:55:43.405 --> 01:55:50.465
I the the the thing is is, first of all, we do need a if if 60 I mean, I know 61 2 is listening or Bitcoin q and a. We need, like, we need an actual
1420
01:55:52.660 --> 01:55:53.720
it very clearly.
1421
01:55:54.580 --> 01:55:56.360
But I mean, I I would say
1422
01:55:57.620 --> 01:55:59.880
that the the main difference is,
1423
01:56:01.735 --> 01:56:02.474
the way
1424
01:56:03.735 --> 01:56:08.395
Whirlpool is set up is it's set up in a way to try and reduce user error.
1425
01:56:09.400 --> 01:56:18.060
And with the Wasabi way, you can use it in a relatively secure way, but you have to be a very advanced user to do that.
1426
01:56:19.355 --> 01:56:23.295
And and the cool part about Samurai is that they kind of just hold your hand,
1427
01:56:24.795 --> 01:56:28.830
why why you're going through that process. Would you would you agree on that, Telco?
1428
01:56:29.450 --> 01:56:31.390
1429
01:56:32.810 --> 01:56:36.190
you know, the what they try to get away with in the beginning,
1430
01:56:36.795 --> 01:56:42.415
or what what was Sabi tried to do different was that they wanted mass outputs to confuse the
1431
01:56:43.035 --> 01:56:43.855
to confuse
1432
01:56:44.450 --> 01:56:46.470
the actual analysis of the
1433
01:56:46.850 --> 01:56:48.070
of the coin join.
1434
01:56:48.530 --> 01:56:53.270
But that doesn't work when it's just a banana peel, right, and it's just peeling.
1435
01:56:54.095 --> 01:56:57.155
I really do recommend everyone going through
1436
01:56:57.535 --> 01:56:58.515
and either reading
1437
01:56:59.215 --> 01:57:00.115
either reading
1438
01:57:01.400 --> 01:57:06.140
6 one zero two's write up Mhmm. Or, or take a look at Ergo's work.
1439
01:57:06.840 --> 01:57:25.080
I know Ergo is part of, like, the Samura team, but when you read it, you you see facts. You know, at at the end of the day, you wanna see facts. And if you don't believe them because you want a unbiased thing, I go back to my previous point of, like, you know, run it yourself and see. Like, run test net or if you wanna put your coins through there, sure.
1440
01:57:26.180 --> 01:57:27.075
You know, just
1441
01:57:27.395 --> 01:57:29.255
try it out and see the outputs,
1442
01:57:30.675 --> 01:57:31.495
and see
1443
01:57:32.195 --> 01:57:36.535
and start breaking it down and try to try to compare and contrast what
1444
01:57:37.190 --> 01:57:43.050
OXT research team is talking about and then understand what why they're wrong or they're right.
1445
01:57:43.945 --> 01:57:49.645
Because really, ultimately, I mean, Bitcoin used to be about don't trust, verify. Right? So, like, that's what we should get back to.
1446
01:57:50.825 --> 01:57:53.100
Other than that, I mean, like, I think we've
1447
01:57:53.720 --> 01:57:54.860
we've beat Whirlpool
1448
01:57:56.120 --> 01:57:56.940
to a pulp.
1449
01:57:57.320 --> 01:57:58.460
It's a
1450
01:57:59.000 --> 01:58:00.220
1451
01:58:00.885 --> 01:58:04.585
so the freaks might know that I'm very good at Twitter search.
1452
01:58:06.165 --> 01:58:10.105
It's one of my strong suits. When when my grandkids ask me,
1453
01:58:11.210 --> 01:58:12.750
Matt, how did you
1454
01:58:13.210 --> 01:58:14.890
how are you so successful? I'll be like,
1455
01:58:15.770 --> 01:58:18.975
you know, Twitter search. Like, people just have to know what to type in.
1456
01:58:20.175 --> 01:58:22.435
So here, to anyone who's watching,
1457
01:58:23.135 --> 01:58:26.835
this was the Twitter hacker who we found out today got the the
1458
01:58:27.570 --> 01:58:30.790
he got the book thrown at him. He got charged with 3 years in prison,
1459
01:58:31.650 --> 01:58:33.030
which I would just say,
1460
01:58:33.730 --> 01:58:38.844
if if what the Twitter hacker in in the summer did was so bad for our society,
1461
01:58:39.864 --> 01:58:42.764
maybe Twitter should have faced some kind of punishment
1462
01:58:43.225 --> 01:58:44.045
for allowing
1463
01:58:44.900 --> 01:58:52.760
a fucking kid to access their their their closely guarded systems and have admin access to everything they fucking do
1464
01:58:53.235 --> 01:58:55.335
and and do what he did. Right?
1465
01:58:55.715 --> 01:58:59.415
But that being said, this is the Twitter act hackers flow.
1466
01:59:00.035 --> 01:59:02.770
And what happened was he put his Bitcoin through Wasabi.
1467
01:59:03.310 --> 01:59:04.290
He did everything
1468
01:59:05.150 --> 01:59:06.210
security wise,
1469
01:59:06.910 --> 01:59:08.610
and the Internet, he did correctly.
1470
01:59:09.070 --> 01:59:16.555
The Bitcoin scam is what fucked him. What fucked him was he decided that he was gonna try and scam people for Bitcoin on Twitter,
1471
01:59:17.335 --> 01:59:21.400
and he received that Bitcoin, and all of a sudden that Bitcoin became a tracking beacon for let's
1472
01:59:21.880 --> 01:59:26.540
fuck this kid. And he put it through Wasabi. And what did he do after he put it through Wasabi?
1473
01:59:27.080 --> 01:59:29.820
He pressed the select all button that is in Wasabi,
1474
01:59:30.405 --> 01:59:37.145
and he sent that all to the next address. And as you can see in the video, if if you're watching the live video,
1475
01:59:37.450 --> 01:59:44.830
you can see that he just strictly you just take the amount that went into Wasabi and you subtract that
1476
01:59:45.344 --> 01:59:47.605
by by the amount that went out,
1477
01:59:49.185 --> 01:59:56.800
and with with the change combined, and then you have you have his path. And it was very easy to track him through that mix.
1478
01:59:57.100 --> 02:00:01.685
That's what the FBI did, and they threw the book at him. So this is this is what happens Okay.
1479
02:00:05.344 --> 02:00:05.844
Well,
1480
02:00:09.505 --> 02:00:18.440
good software doesn't let you use it wrong, and I'm Okay. Well, good software doesn't let you use it wrong, and I'm not advocating for crime. I don't think he should be.
1481
02:00:19.285 --> 02:00:20.425
I don't think criminals,
1482
02:00:21.285 --> 02:00:36.615
should get away with their crimes, but I think that if people expect privacy from software, they should get privacy from software. And and this is a perfect example of why Wasabi is broken. The Wasabi people know it's broken, and that's why they're trying to create a whole new fucking algorithm instead yeah.
1483
02:00:42.755 --> 02:00:45.630
1484
02:00:46.090 --> 02:00:48.270
on the hood. I don't really have much.
1485
02:00:48.969 --> 02:00:59.615
1486
02:01:00.050 --> 02:01:03.430
probably the best post mix tool that we have available to us.
1487
02:01:04.290 --> 02:01:06.950
And you, samurai, people are against lightning, so
1488
02:01:08.934 --> 02:01:11.915
justify justify your lack of interest in lightning to me.
1489
02:01:12.775 --> 02:01:14.155
1490
02:01:14.730 --> 02:01:21.710
and then I'll let, like, Woah, comment some, and then maybe I'll comment back in because I feel like I talk a lot. But
1491
02:01:24.014 --> 02:01:26.034
I, personally, I think the principle
1492
02:01:26.335 --> 02:01:26.994
of lightning
1493
02:01:27.295 --> 02:01:30.594
is cool. Like, I think it's good. Right? Like, the the concept,
1494
02:01:31.295 --> 02:01:31.795
right,
1495
02:01:32.480 --> 02:01:36.320
is people wanna spend Bitcoin. That is fucking great. Like, that
1496
02:01:37.120 --> 02:01:38.980
I'm all for people spending Bitcoin.
1497
02:01:39.335 --> 02:01:40.395
I don't really care
1498
02:01:40.775 --> 02:01:43.835
whether it's with lightning or whether it's with on chain.
1499
02:01:45.655 --> 02:01:46.715
I think that
1500
02:01:47.735 --> 02:01:48.235
the
1501
02:01:49.020 --> 02:01:50.160
overall, like,
1502
02:01:50.860 --> 02:01:54.480
that lightning is this holy grail of a fix
1503
02:01:54.940 --> 02:01:56.320
is not quite accurate.
1504
02:01:56.905 --> 02:01:57.805
I think that,
1505
02:01:59.625 --> 02:02:11.770
you know, like, is this something we're gonna need in the future? Like, yeah. I mean, maybe. It depends on the there's a lot of factors that it depends on the future, but, you know, there's inherent risk. It's not easy,
1506
02:02:12.230 --> 02:02:13.370
and I think that
1507
02:02:17.095 --> 02:02:17.755
I just
1508
02:02:18.135 --> 02:02:20.475
I I think that we've been like, we've had development
1509
02:02:20.855 --> 02:02:22.155
in lightning for
1510
02:02:22.760 --> 02:02:23.260
what?
1511
02:02:23.719 --> 02:02:24.920
What year is it? 20 7
1512
02:02:25.880 --> 02:02:28.460
1513
02:02:29.400 --> 02:02:30.940
1514
02:02:31.265 --> 02:02:34.245
Am I am I wrong? 16 was the white paper. 16.
1515
02:02:34.705 --> 02:02:36.405
16 was white paper. Right?
1516
02:02:37.265 --> 02:02:40.485
2017 was, like, no shit Mainnet then. Right? Like, right at the new year?
1517
02:02:42.699 --> 02:02:43.199
So
1518
02:02:43.900 --> 02:02:49.599
I I mean, yeah, I I think that, like, we've been in this for a long time and we still see a lot of issues. Right?
1519
02:02:50.585 --> 02:02:53.645
And I don't see a ton of actual usage. Right? Like,
1520
02:02:53.945 --> 02:03:03.289
if it was the the savior that it was supposed to be. Right? Because we gotta think about what lightning actually man, I said this is gonna be short, but it's not.
1521
02:03:03.590 --> 02:03:09.015
Oh, we had to think about what lightning, why it came about. Right? Like, why it it, like,
1522
02:03:09.715 --> 02:03:20.170
kicked off into development and then why it got rushed. In my opinion, I felt like it got rushed into mainnet. It got rushed into, like, this whole, like, adoption, and everyone put it up on this giant pedestal
1523
02:03:20.710 --> 02:03:23.050
immediately. Right? Like, we didn't even see that with Taproot.
1524
02:03:23.585 --> 02:03:28.325
Like, we saw Lightning be put up like this god of software. And
1525
02:03:29.185 --> 02:03:41.705
even right now, right, like, if you look at coin cards or at, like, bit refill, like, you're looking at the bottom of the barrel for, like, of all of their different currencies that they accept, cryptocurrencies they accept,
1526
02:03:42.105 --> 02:03:43.325
it's, like, the least,
1527
02:03:44.665 --> 02:03:46.685
it's the least used, which
1528
02:03:47.145 --> 02:03:53.020
should be, like, worrisome for anybody that's, like, I'm not saying that you're not super bullish. Right?
1529
02:03:53.640 --> 02:03:56.860
Like, you could be super super bullish on, like, the outcome of it.
1530
02:03:57.160 --> 02:03:57.660
But
1531
02:03:58.195 --> 02:04:03.974
are you super bullish on it, like, currently right now? Because I don't see a ton of people using it. I see it as, like, a novelty.
1532
02:04:04.514 --> 02:04:06.295
You know, people like the idea,
1533
02:04:06.780 --> 02:04:07.280
and
1534
02:04:07.740 --> 02:04:08.640
maybe we can,
1535
02:04:09.820 --> 02:04:12.240
you know, maybe you can use some. I find it
1536
02:04:12.700 --> 02:04:14.960
difficult that you need to lock up funds
1537
02:04:15.420 --> 02:04:16.240
in a channel,
1538
02:04:16.625 --> 02:04:18.205
And that from there,
1539
02:04:19.265 --> 02:04:27.420
you know, maybe you can spend it. Maybe you don't you don't know how much, and you never know how much you're actually gonna need until the time that you need it. Right? So
1540
02:04:27.960 --> 02:04:33.635
then you end up having to lock up more than you need to, so on and so forth. I I don't know. I see different issues,
1541
02:04:34.255 --> 02:04:39.715
but it's been a while since I've been in the lightning game. But I don't know. Like, like, what do you have anything to add to lightning?
1542
02:04:42.550 --> 02:04:45.930
1543
02:04:46.310 --> 02:04:46.810
I
1544
02:04:47.635 --> 02:04:48.614
I have used it
1545
02:04:48.994 --> 02:04:50.934
myself. I know man likes it, and
1546
02:04:51.235 --> 02:04:52.215
it has a future
1547
02:04:52.755 --> 02:04:57.014
even though it doesn't have a lot of, you know, volume going into it
1548
02:04:57.450 --> 02:04:58.990
compared to other things. But,
1549
02:04:59.770 --> 02:05:11.545
long term, it it it should have some it it should have a future. And I know if I if I talk shit about it, Evan is not gonna buy me of your next new meeting in my secret. We're we're we're all gonna fucking
1550
02:05:12.070 --> 02:05:21.290
throw you to the wolves if you talk shit to the white man. No. No. Lightning Lightning Network is is good. It's I think, you know, it it it could improve, but I think
1551
02:05:22.055 --> 02:05:26.875
the movement in terms of community involvement, a lot of, you know, a lot of wallets out there
1552
02:05:27.495 --> 02:05:31.170
are very, very strong, and a lot of people are just putting a lot of work into it.
1553
02:05:31.810 --> 02:05:36.870
You're You know, I know I know some of them, you don't wanna you don't wanna add it into, you know, into Ronan.
1554
02:05:37.489 --> 02:05:42.125
And, you know, I I you know, I respect that. You know, we don't wanna the reason why maximalist.
1555
02:05:44.105 --> 02:05:46.445
No. I no. Don't worry. Maximalist.
1556
02:05:46.745 --> 02:05:52.480
1557
02:05:52.860 --> 02:05:56.880
post mix tools that we have available to us. You go through coin join,
1558
02:05:57.364 --> 02:06:02.985
and you're able to spend off chain and it never goes on chain. Is it fucking massive?
1559
02:06:05.150 --> 02:06:10.530
No. The thing is, you know, it's It's it's it's it's not it doesn't replace CoinJoin. It is it is
1560
02:06:10.830 --> 02:06:18.145
a valuable addition to CoinJoin. This is what, like, the open noms of the world realize. My perspective is we're on a whole different level.
1561
02:06:18.445 --> 02:06:29.960
1562
02:06:30.325 --> 02:06:44.850
1563
02:06:46.025 --> 02:06:46.525
then
1564
02:06:46.905 --> 02:06:47.965
that should be
1565
02:06:48.425 --> 02:06:53.245
isolated. And I think if you're running your own lightning node or your own routing node
1566
02:06:53.610 --> 02:06:54.750
247 online,
1567
02:06:55.210 --> 02:06:56.270
that should be isolated.
1568
02:06:56.650 --> 02:07:06.565
It should be isolated. This idea this idea that you're gonna have everything on a single online computer is fucking ridiculous. Well, Matt, that's a bad way. Situation, you should have
1569
02:07:06.945 --> 02:07:07.925
you should have
1570
02:07:08.310 --> 02:07:11.929
everything on a on a dedicated computer. But that being said,
1571
02:07:12.869 --> 02:07:25.955
if you're if you're a Lightning fan and you trust the Ronin devs, like, maybe you should be able to opt in for for Lightning in that respect, you know. You know, you have So if I I I should be able to have 2 Ronin Dojos running, one running
1572
02:07:26.720 --> 02:07:32.660
1573
02:07:33.360 --> 02:07:35.300
dose Selco with some LSD
1574
02:07:35.985 --> 02:07:38.165
and eventually tie him up in a basement
1575
02:07:38.625 --> 02:07:48.369
for him to agree on it. But if we were to eventually add it, it would be in a way where you couldn't run Samurai Dojo at the same time with Lightning Network.
1576
02:07:48.670 --> 02:07:49.889
That's the thing. Because
1577
02:07:50.270 --> 02:07:50.670
you can't
1578
02:07:51.469 --> 02:07:54.290
like like you said, you have a you gotta have a dedicated
1579
02:07:55.114 --> 02:07:56.974
node that runs Lightning Network,
1580
02:07:57.275 --> 02:08:00.014
a dedicated node that runs Ronin Dojo,
1581
02:08:00.315 --> 02:08:03.454
or my note, whatever, you know, about Samurai Dojo specifically.
1582
02:08:04.220 --> 02:08:28.440
Because if you try to run everything, like, most people just wanna click on everything. They wanna install every application that's available or whatever, you know, Umbro, My Note. And this is one of the problems that they have. You know? Everyone wants to install everything and, you know, they want to add everything in the kitchen sink. Right? I mean, that's a problem because some of these these machines, they can't handle all the all the resources that are being put into it. So it becomes very unstable.
1583
02:08:29.515 --> 02:08:32.895
So if you want to run Lightning Network, set up a node that's specifically
1584
02:08:33.195 --> 02:08:39.100
going to be dedicated for that. If you want to run run-in Dojo, set up a node that's that's gonna be specifically set up for that,
1585
02:08:39.660 --> 02:08:41.360
Not both at the same time.
1586
02:08:42.060 --> 02:08:46.720
But I'll let I'll let I'll let Telco, you know, chime in and, you know, give his opinion. I know he
1587
02:08:48.455 --> 02:08:53.915
1588
02:08:54.260 --> 02:08:55.640
that I almost implemented,
1589
02:08:56.420 --> 02:08:57.320
implemented Lightning,
1590
02:08:58.900 --> 02:09:03.080
directly into the Dojo stack. Like, I mean, like, into Dojo,
1591
02:09:04.415 --> 02:09:11.795
because we have a fork. Like, if other people don't know that, we are very transparent about it. Like, we fork it based on, like, what we need.
1592
02:09:12.350 --> 02:09:13.570
We maintain with upstream.
1593
02:09:15.710 --> 02:09:32.840
But, Evan from Zeus, who I know you've has been on SIDO Dispatch, He's a New York guy. I know. Shout out to fucking you guys. But, yeah, he was he was trying to help me out. And the the whole principle of why I was, like, thinking about that idea
1594
02:09:33.540 --> 02:09:34.280
was for
1595
02:09:34.820 --> 02:09:35.800
toxic change,
1596
02:09:36.185 --> 02:09:38.045
not so much for Postmates tools.
1597
02:09:38.665 --> 02:09:40.764
I don't know if I necessarily like,
1598
02:09:41.224 --> 02:09:46.739
I get where you're coming from, Matt. Like, I get the idea of, like, you do a coin you you do,
1599
02:09:47.760 --> 02:09:48.260
Whirlpool,
1600
02:09:48.800 --> 02:09:54.784
and then, hey, you're in post mix. Now you do a Kahoots into a lightning channel. Right?
1601
02:09:55.565 --> 02:10:01.400
In theory, like, yeah. Sure. Like, that that could work. Like, I don't see why anyone should not do that. But,
1602
02:10:03.220 --> 02:10:09.545
I mean, other unless you don't trust Lightning. That's up to you. How much funds do you wanna put in the Lightning? But,
1603
02:10:10.165 --> 02:10:14.105
what I was looking at it specifically for is, like, if we could have a way to specifically
1604
02:10:14.725 --> 02:10:17.210
segregate out that toxic change
1605
02:10:19.030 --> 02:10:20.570
from that TX 0,
1606
02:10:20.870 --> 02:10:23.370
toxic change, and then that can go into Lightning.
1607
02:10:24.175 --> 02:10:28.114
My biggest thing that I see with Lightning right now, right, is that
1608
02:10:28.895 --> 02:10:32.435
so much of it are, like, the best wallets that we have.
1609
02:10:32.890 --> 02:10:38.830
They're I mean, they're custodial. Right? Like, custodial wallets are are so much easier, faster,
1610
02:10:40.170 --> 02:10:42.325
that you get preloaded with
1611
02:10:43.285 --> 02:10:44.105
with liquidity.
1612
02:10:45.445 --> 02:10:49.305
Like, if I if I'm, like, not if I'm, like, a brand new user,
1613
02:10:49.840 --> 02:10:58.580
right, brand new user, I'm a plead from, you know, wherever, no coiner, and then I become a big I'm like, hey. I wanna buy Bitcoin. It's almost like, dude, you gotta try lightning.
1614
02:10:59.045 --> 02:11:01.705
Right? You want them to have that instant satisfaction
1615
02:11:02.085 --> 02:11:03.945
of like, hey. This is how it works.
1616
02:11:04.485 --> 02:11:06.985
And then you're not waiting to pay a fee.
1617
02:11:07.420 --> 02:11:08.160
There's not
1618
02:11:10.380 --> 02:11:14.800
you're not, like, waiting for your your liquidity to get confirmed on chain.
1619
02:11:15.455 --> 02:11:19.474
You you just wanna show them, hey, you can pay low fees. Right?
1620
02:11:21.695 --> 02:11:22.195
So
1621
02:11:22.920 --> 02:11:27.820
that's where that's where I see I see a lot a bigger future in lightning with
1622
02:11:28.440 --> 02:11:28.940
custodial
1623
02:11:29.640 --> 02:11:30.140
wallets.
1624
02:11:30.575 --> 02:11:33.955
Well And, again, I I don't wanna I don't wanna ask for nothing.
1625
02:11:34.655 --> 02:11:41.239
1626
02:11:42.020 --> 02:11:43.640
it's it's easy to access,
1627
02:11:44.900 --> 02:11:46.120
and it's not custodial
1628
02:11:47.185 --> 02:11:48.485
exactly. It's like,
1629
02:11:49.665 --> 02:11:55.285
quasi it's like quasi custodial. It's it it's you're connecting to their their routing nodes, but,
1630
02:11:55.600 --> 02:11:57.380
technically, they don't hold the price.
1631
02:11:58.400 --> 02:12:00.420
1632
02:12:01.520 --> 02:12:13.680
He's asking, what if I have a note and I run multiple things on there, Mike. So is that okay? Yeah. This is Mary. Alright. So you gotta be careful. You you your my advice is look at the
1633
02:12:14.800 --> 02:12:18.100
you know, how the system is working. You know? Look at your free memory.
1634
02:12:18.480 --> 02:12:23.995
Look if you're swapping. Depending on how much software you have on there, you wanna make sure that you're not gonna take up too many resources
1635
02:12:24.535 --> 02:12:28.235
because you're going to have, a lot of instability if your CPU
1636
02:12:29.219 --> 02:12:30.199
is is going up,
1637
02:12:30.500 --> 02:12:39.905
especially if your system starts swapping. So you wanna be careful on that. So you want to try to only enable the things that you're actually going to use.
1638
02:12:40.445 --> 02:12:55.744
So for instance, if you're going to be, you know, using something very often, enable that. If you're just installing something just to install in it, don't install it. Make sure it's something you're going to be using, but do not do too much. Samurai Dojo is is is resource intensive.
1639
02:12:56.204 --> 02:13:06.170
1640
02:13:06.630 --> 02:13:09.130
if you have 2 things that are of value,
1641
02:13:09.510 --> 02:13:12.735
if you split them up, then they have to separately attack
1642
02:13:13.114 --> 02:13:26.739
both of those things. If you have them on the same fucking device, then they just have to attack one device, and they get Yeah. You have you have one layer of you you have one layer of entry right there. Right? A very it's a very simple concept. Like, you wanna split up
1643
02:13:28.035 --> 02:13:29.415
your your your
1644
02:13:30.594 --> 02:13:40.200
your your value. Your the the value you have, you wanna split up. You don't want all your value to be in one place. You don't want someone to walk into a home and just have
1645
02:13:40.580 --> 02:13:44.840
all the money just sitting in a single closet. You want it to be in multiple closets
1646
02:13:45.205 --> 02:13:50.425
1647
02:13:51.125 --> 02:14:07.335
they they they think setting up a Raspberry Pi, you know, a Rock Pro 60 4 is very, very hard. But it really isn't, you know? It's you have to just have keep an open mind. There's a lot of resources out there. I I eventually, I'm gonna be writing guides on how to set up, you know, these types of devices for yourself.
1648
02:14:07.875 --> 02:14:15.719
But, you have to just, you know, not not think of it as rocket science. You know? These are tiny computers. I know, but they're they're really not that hard to set up.
1649
02:14:16.099 --> 02:14:17.639
1650
02:14:18.019 --> 02:14:20.760
I think now is a great time to talk about KYC.
1651
02:14:22.635 --> 02:14:28.415
Before we talk about KYC, I just wanna do a quick little video from DISC, and then we'll talk about it.
1652
02:14:30.400 --> 02:14:32.660
1653
02:14:33.360 --> 02:14:35.300
They collect your personal information
1654
02:14:36.240 --> 02:14:38.020
and jeopardize your privacy.
1655
02:14:39.455 --> 02:14:42.275
K y c is the illicit activity.
1656
02:14:44.255 --> 02:14:45.475
This is open source.
1657
02:14:45.935 --> 02:14:48.080
It does not collect user data.
1658
02:14:48.540 --> 02:14:50.240
You keep your private keys.
1659
02:14:50.780 --> 02:14:56.295
Create or take offers to trade peer to peer. And keep your Bitcoin private and secure.
1660
02:15:01.610 --> 02:15:03.070
1661
02:15:03.449 --> 02:15:07.469
that was bisque. Why shouldn't user why should users be concerned about KYC,
1662
02:15:08.090 --> 02:15:08.590
and
1663
02:15:09.815 --> 02:15:10.795
why should they care?
1664
02:15:12.455 --> 02:15:14.554
1665
02:15:15.815 --> 02:15:19.630
you know, funny story. So, like, my I have family friends that
1666
02:15:22.410 --> 02:15:24.590
family and friends that are, like,
1667
02:15:24.890 --> 02:15:25.870
well off now.
1668
02:15:26.175 --> 02:15:36.420
A lot of them are older family members and stuff that that have a lot of money. And so, you know, they're now that they see the bull market again, they're getting super excited. Right?
1669
02:15:36.800 --> 02:15:42.535
And, you know, they they see me as someone that can, you know, guide them through the waters.
1670
02:15:42.935 --> 02:15:47.515
I tell them to just listen to TFTC, but they didn't listen. Here we go. Anyways
1671
02:15:48.935 --> 02:15:49.655
anyways, the
1672
02:15:50.480 --> 02:15:56.500
you know, so they always ask. Right? And they're on Coinbase or Pro and they're, you know or Swan or whatever.
1673
02:15:56.880 --> 02:15:59.860
And it's sound like, you know, when we get down to it,
1674
02:16:00.265 --> 02:16:05.165
I I started to talk to him about, hey, like because it kills me a little bit inside
1675
02:16:05.945 --> 02:16:08.525
every time that we talk about KYC because
1676
02:16:09.290 --> 02:16:14.190
it's inherently, like, against everything that I believe. You know? Like, as a person that had been there,
1677
02:16:14.730 --> 02:16:17.790
you know, I would rather someone that learned from my mistakes.
1678
02:16:18.275 --> 02:16:20.455
Right? I would rather someone that
1679
02:16:20.915 --> 02:16:26.615
doesn't just fold to the easiest thing available. And I get that that need that that's a
1680
02:16:27.190 --> 02:16:27.770
an inevitable,
1681
02:16:28.950 --> 02:16:36.490
route that is going to always be in Bitcoin. Like, the easiest path to get Bitcoin is always gonna be there, and that easiest path is always gonna involve compliance.
1682
02:16:37.185 --> 02:16:37.685
Right?
1683
02:16:38.785 --> 02:16:46.165
But as I started to talk to these people that that had all this money and that wanted to buy Bitcoin, and I started to explain some of the different,
1684
02:16:47.950 --> 02:16:50.051
you know, the different risks and the different,
1685
02:16:50.671 --> 02:16:54.795
advantages to buying no KYC. Right? Like, if you buy no KYC
1686
02:16:55.335 --> 02:16:58.075
and you buy it with cash, who knows that you have it?
1687
02:16:58.695 --> 02:16:59.755
And they were like,
1688
02:17:00.295 --> 02:17:01.915
no one? And I was like, exactly.
1689
02:17:02.561 --> 02:17:14.115
Right? So, like, if no one knows that you have it, and then one day you go to sell and you sell it to someone else for cash, who knows that you have it? Or who knows that you made that transaction? They go, no one. Like, exactly.
1690
02:17:14.976 --> 02:17:21.350
Right? Like, that that's the kind of stuff that forward thinking and and not to mention, right, you don't wanna be on the list.
1691
02:17:21.810 --> 02:17:23.430
No one no one in Bitcoin,
1692
02:17:23.970 --> 02:17:29.655
no one in general should wanna be on a list. Right? Like, in America, you could go back to 2,001.
1693
02:17:30.435 --> 02:17:30.935
Right?
1694
02:17:31.395 --> 02:17:36.535
And go back to, like, you don't wanna be on a no fly list. Right? So that's bad. That's a bad day.
1695
02:17:36.980 --> 02:17:46.360
Same thing. Right? Let's move forward. Right? Like, you don't wanna be on a you had to buy your guns and register them. We're gonna kinda small plug into guns and Bitcoin.
1696
02:17:47.016 --> 02:17:52.795
Like, you don't wanna you don't wanna own firearms that are gonna throw you on a list that the government owns.
1697
02:17:53.096 --> 02:17:58.390
Right? Because one day, maybe not right now, the US government's pretty shady when it comes
1698
02:17:58.770 --> 02:18:00.550
to the timing and the,
1699
02:18:01.970 --> 02:18:05.670
and the the longevity. Right? Like, they they take their time
1700
02:18:06.085 --> 02:18:11.225
to to take privacy and to take take things away from you. Right? It's never it's never immediate.
1701
02:18:11.925 --> 02:18:19.640
But So you don't you don't wanna be on a list. So, like, if you're on a KYC list, right, unless you sell this KYC
1702
02:18:20.180 --> 02:18:22.199
this KYC stats back,
1703
02:18:22.556 --> 02:18:32.899
right, you're always you're always there. You're always on the list. You're always gonna be someone that, say, 6102 happens, shut up, 6102 happens,
1704
02:18:33.279 --> 02:18:42.585
1705
02:18:43.524 --> 02:18:44.024
Yeah.
1706
02:18:44.564 --> 02:18:52.690
That's the first thing I'm a do. I'm I swear I'll do it. The reason I ask these questions is for the same it's like I so I asked the same question
1707
02:18:53.311 --> 02:18:55.010
of last week. We had
1708
02:18:55.865 --> 02:18:59.725
lightning we had lightning focused people, and I said, why lightning? Right?
1709
02:19:01.064 --> 02:19:04.524
And I the reason I asked these questions is because we need to
1710
02:19:05.320 --> 02:19:08.140
we we we need to fine tune our messaging.
1711
02:19:09.960 --> 02:19:15.615
This idea that just the compliance pros care about marketing is a ridiculous idea. We will never admit it,
1712
02:19:16.155 --> 02:19:18.415
but we need to have fine tuned,
1713
02:19:19.676 --> 02:19:20.176
messaging
1714
02:19:20.795 --> 02:19:22.096
for our audience.
1715
02:19:22.930 --> 02:19:23.430
And
1716
02:19:24.610 --> 02:19:29.270
with with with KYC, the key is is it's not a Bitcoin thing.
1717
02:19:29.705 --> 02:19:31.165
Our whole world is KYC'd.
1718
02:19:31.865 --> 02:19:32.845
They are literally
1719
02:19:33.865 --> 02:19:37.325
the powers that are be I said they. I know I said they.
1720
02:19:38.229 --> 02:19:39.370
The royal they.
1721
02:19:40.310 --> 02:19:41.529
It it it is
1722
02:19:42.229 --> 02:19:45.370
the the government and the powers that be
1723
02:19:46.605 --> 02:19:51.985
are making sure that everything we do in our lives are identified and cataloged.
1724
02:19:52.365 --> 02:19:53.505
This idea that
1725
02:19:54.160 --> 02:19:55.939
if you go to the mall,
1726
02:19:56.880 --> 02:20:01.345
that person is cataloged into a database somewhere, that person went to the mall.
1727
02:20:01.904 --> 02:20:08.805
This is this is a commonplace thing that is happening across every facet of our society, whether that's you're leaving the country,
1728
02:20:09.185 --> 02:20:11.045
whether that's you're entering a city,
1729
02:20:11.601 --> 02:20:12.340
whether that's,
1730
02:20:13.440 --> 02:20:20.420
you're showing up at a building and and and to go into some random office or some some shit like that,
1731
02:20:21.105 --> 02:20:22.965
or or you're leaving the country.
1732
02:20:23.505 --> 02:20:25.125
All these things are
1733
02:20:26.385 --> 02:20:29.445
cataloged and decided who does what.
1734
02:20:30.570 --> 02:20:33.710
And it creates the situation where we're gonna have databases
1735
02:20:34.490 --> 02:20:35.311
that basically,
1736
02:20:37.056 --> 02:20:41.796
catalog every single action that we do as a free individual, and that
1737
02:20:43.216 --> 02:20:45.716
basically takes away our our complete freedom.
1738
02:20:46.910 --> 02:20:53.811
And and with Bitcoin, it's to the extreme, because with Bitcoin, if we don't take any actions after after the fact,
1739
02:20:54.774 --> 02:20:59.995
our transactions can be counted indefinitely. So once once they have us in the system
1740
02:21:00.375 --> 02:21:02.074
and then we move into Bitcoin,
1741
02:21:02.761 --> 02:21:08.301
they can follow us through all of our Bitcoin transactions, and they can follow anyone we transact with,
1742
02:21:08.841 --> 02:21:10.141
by proxy. So,
1743
02:21:10.995 --> 02:21:12.615
if I pay if I decide
1744
02:21:13.075 --> 02:21:16.535
to go into Bitcoin Black Cab, I fly over to London,
1745
02:21:17.155 --> 02:21:18.775
they see I bought a ticket,
1746
02:21:19.341 --> 02:21:23.040
I'm flying to London. They know I'm going to Europe. I get to Europe.
1747
02:21:23.500 --> 02:21:32.665
I call a taxi. It's the only taxi that accepts Bitcoin, and then all of a sudden, Bitcoin black cab, they know he picked me up at that time, you know, and I paid him Bitcoin.
1748
02:21:34.645 --> 02:21:35.145
So
1749
02:21:35.641 --> 02:21:43.020
so all those things together, like, it becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly, in my opinion, that if you care about freedom,
1750
02:21:45.905 --> 02:21:48.485
you care about privacy. And you have to
1751
02:21:48.865 --> 02:21:51.205
push back against these these
1752
02:21:51.585 --> 02:21:59.550
requests for private information for every single fucking thing we do. If we don't if we that's the first step. If we don't push back against that,
1753
02:22:00.195 --> 02:22:04.295
it becomes very difficult for us to have privacy in any other aspect of our life.
1754
02:22:08.311 --> 02:22:11.290
1755
02:22:12.230 --> 02:22:12.730
the,
1756
02:22:13.671 --> 02:22:14.891
you know, using
1757
02:22:15.735 --> 02:22:22.075
non Googled phones. Right? Like, using those things and disabling all this up. Like, do everything that you can.
1758
02:22:22.510 --> 02:22:25.649
Right? Taking small steps, but do everything you can
1759
02:22:26.430 --> 02:22:29.890
to take back your freedom, right, to take back your privacy because
1760
02:22:31.024 --> 02:22:37.925
because that stuff is gonna slowly increase. Right? Like like I said, governments aren't stupid. Right? Especially in America,
1761
02:22:38.260 --> 02:22:40.600
right, where we're a bunch of hard headed assholes
1762
02:22:42.500 --> 02:22:45.000
that love our freedom. They know not to
1763
02:22:45.726 --> 02:22:52.065
just up and take everyone's guns. They know not to just up and, you know, restrict everyone's freedoms
1764
02:22:52.525 --> 02:22:53.025
overnight.
1765
02:22:53.561 --> 02:22:58.620
Right? I'm I'm gonna ignore the the lockdowns before I get, like, shit on for the lockdowns.
1766
02:22:59.880 --> 02:23:07.585
You know, they they know not to do that because they know that it's too inherent in the American values to to fight that kind of
1767
02:23:08.045 --> 02:23:08.545
oppression.
1768
02:23:09.005 --> 02:23:11.425
So what what do they do? Right? It's small
1769
02:23:11.880 --> 02:23:12.540
incremental attacks
1770
02:23:13.399 --> 02:23:14.779
over time. And
1771
02:23:15.080 --> 02:23:17.960
the the scariest part about all of that is that most of it
1772
02:23:18.840 --> 02:23:19.580
most of
1773
02:23:20.115 --> 02:23:24.854
those freedom attacks, most of that data that's getting pulled doesn't come from the government.
1774
02:23:25.395 --> 02:23:27.415
It's Twitter. It's Facebook.
1775
02:23:29.029 --> 02:23:29.529
It's
1776
02:23:30.149 --> 02:23:34.890
all of the and that's, like, I guess, kinda why some people, like, prefer Telegram. Right? Like, it's
1777
02:23:35.565 --> 02:23:44.306
it's based out of Russia. Right? So some people, like, I trust Russia more than I do trust the American government with my information or American companies with my information.
1778
02:23:44.860 --> 02:23:45.520
But, ultimately,
1779
02:23:46.460 --> 02:23:49.120
it goes back to that, like, you know, diverters
1780
02:23:50.220 --> 02:23:53.360
mentioned it, like, use the tools. Right? Like, use matrix, use
1781
02:23:54.335 --> 02:23:58.995
Mastodon or whatever it is. They're not gonna it's never gonna have the same
1782
02:23:59.695 --> 02:24:00.835
level of following.
1783
02:24:01.410 --> 02:24:01.910
Right?
1784
02:24:03.970 --> 02:24:08.470
But, you know, you have to understand the risk that you're taking. You have to understand
1785
02:24:08.930 --> 02:24:09.430
that
1786
02:24:10.465 --> 02:24:15.524
you're you're giving up something, and so that goes with KYC and it goes with Bitcoin.
1787
02:24:16.145 --> 02:24:17.845
Are you okay with
1788
02:24:18.305 --> 02:24:19.364
buying your Bitcoin
1789
02:24:20.240 --> 02:24:21.779
and giving up and associating
1790
02:24:22.240 --> 02:24:23.060
your identity
1791
02:24:23.439 --> 02:24:24.500
with that UTXO?
1792
02:24:25.359 --> 02:24:25.859
Right?
1793
02:24:26.319 --> 02:24:26.819
Now
1794
02:24:27.175 --> 02:24:34.795
that UTXO or that amount that you bought, say, on Coinbase or whatever, that is gonna stay in their logs for however long.
1795
02:24:35.175 --> 02:24:35.675
But
1796
02:24:36.101 --> 02:24:37.320
let's, like
1797
02:24:37.700 --> 02:24:53.770
you know, you could say, hey. I'm gonna coin join. I'm gonna move the coins. It's gonna break my, you know, break my deterministic lengths, and they're not gonna know how I spend afterwards. And you're like, yeah. That that is 100% true. They're not gonna know how you spend afterwards, but they're gonna know that you had x amount.
1798
02:24:54.149 --> 02:24:57.930
You know, they're gonna know that you bought x amount on on that exchange.
1799
02:24:58.310 --> 02:24:59.210
You know? So
1800
02:24:59.695 --> 02:25:02.355
when you buy no KYC from day 1
1801
02:25:03.535 --> 02:25:07.475
or whenever you buy no KYC, number 1, you should keep those funds separate.
1802
02:25:07.910 --> 02:25:12.570
You always keep your KYC versus no KYC separated. And when you do that,
1803
02:25:13.030 --> 02:25:13.850
you are now,
1804
02:25:14.790 --> 02:25:17.655
you're you're one step ahead in the privacy game.
1805
02:25:18.215 --> 02:25:24.075
Right? Like, should you sell coin join? Absolutely. Should you still do use your Postmates tools? Absolutely.
1806
02:25:24.615 --> 02:25:25.115
But
1807
02:25:25.801 --> 02:25:29.820
what like, you by you not associating an identity to
1808
02:25:30.280 --> 02:25:32.780
to the amount of coin that you have that UTXO,
1809
02:25:33.436 --> 02:25:38.415
you've now taken us a a greater step forward. You're in an even bigger battle,
1810
02:25:38.795 --> 02:25:43.610
and you just wanna even battle by not starting out giving up your identity.
1811
02:25:44.070 --> 02:25:48.011
So, like, that that to me, like, that should be the most paramount thing.
1812
02:25:48.391 --> 02:25:48.891
And,
1813
02:25:49.915 --> 02:25:50.575
you know,
1814
02:25:51.115 --> 02:25:51.615
shilling
1815
02:25:53.675 --> 02:25:54.335
you know,
1816
02:25:55.035 --> 02:25:58.490
it's a painful thing. Like, I I I feel like you're in a bad spot, Matt.
1817
02:25:58.971 --> 02:26:07.790
Like, haven't like, I think that, like, you and Lavera have a lot of respect for well, like, I think you and Lavera and there's a lot of people who are in this boat, right, that, like, understand
1818
02:26:08.295 --> 02:26:09.335
the benefits in that
1819
02:26:10.215 --> 02:26:13.114
in the advantage to having no KYC coin.
1820
02:26:13.495 --> 02:26:13.995
Right?
1821
02:26:14.375 --> 02:26:14.875
But
1822
02:26:15.630 --> 02:26:17.650
there's also the argument to say,
1823
02:26:18.590 --> 02:26:22.530
hey. Like, we need more people in Bitcoin in general. I would rather
1824
02:26:23.735 --> 02:26:25.675
sacrifice I mean their KYC.
1825
02:26:26.375 --> 02:26:34.800
1826
02:26:37.740 --> 02:26:45.984
Oh, do it. Do it. You won't. No. I know. I'm I won't. I won't. I I love Stefan. I I my my point is my point is
1827
02:26:47.399 --> 02:26:49.180
is is I I don't think
1828
02:26:49.640 --> 02:26:50.119
that I'm
1829
02:26:50.879 --> 02:26:51.379
I
1830
02:26:51.880 --> 02:26:55.325
if I if I thought that I was throwing people into the KYC
1831
02:26:55.785 --> 02:26:57.405
fucking juggernaut without
1832
02:26:57.865 --> 02:27:00.640
explaining the risk to them, then I wouldn't do what I do.
1833
02:27:01.359 --> 02:27:02.180
1834
02:27:02.560 --> 02:27:11.185
1835
02:27:11.965 --> 02:27:21.650
Exactly. And that's that's exactly and that's that's my to pump my own back. That's for them. That's for the user. I actually think the user's better off owning Bitcoin than not owning Bitcoin.
1836
02:27:22.430 --> 02:27:27.970
1837
02:27:28.305 --> 02:27:29.984
like, advice and and and,
1838
02:27:31.265 --> 02:27:32.805
on Bitcoin. Right? Like,
1839
02:27:34.064 --> 02:27:36.005
ultimately, like, they wanna buy Bitcoin,
1840
02:27:36.311 --> 02:27:38.410
and they wanna buy Bitcoin the easiest way.
1841
02:27:39.351 --> 02:27:43.131
Most of them most normal people don't care about KYC. They don't think twice.
1842
02:27:43.671 --> 02:27:49.965
1843
02:27:50.345 --> 02:27:51.725
what I've been doing is
1844
02:27:54.280 --> 02:27:58.700
is is people ask me, okay. Like, I wanna like, I'm finally ready to buy. Right?
1845
02:28:01.365 --> 02:28:07.306
I don't even bought like, to be like, I'm just gonna admit like, to be quite honest, like, I'm not gonna tell
1846
02:28:08.005 --> 02:28:08.745
some rando
1847
02:28:09.760 --> 02:28:18.420
to use Bisq or use Huddl Huddl or use no KYC. Like, I just tell them I tell them to go to Swan. Right? So I say go to Swan Bitcoin.
1848
02:28:21.215 --> 02:28:26.275
And and and that way, you're just dollar cross averaging into Bitcoin. There's no shit coins, no whatever.
1849
02:28:26.601 --> 02:28:28.940
And they hit the KYC wall. Right?
1850
02:28:29.480 --> 02:28:30.940
And they go, Matt,
1851
02:28:32.360 --> 02:28:33.900
this KYC is horrible.
1852
02:28:34.445 --> 02:28:35.346
It is ridiculous,
1853
02:28:35.726 --> 02:28:37.825
like, what I need to what I require.
1854
02:28:38.285 --> 02:28:39.346
And I actually
1855
02:28:41.245 --> 02:28:43.585
think that's, like, a great educational experience.
1856
02:28:44.880 --> 02:28:50.340
Right? Because, like Yeah. The reason the KYC exists is because they wanna use their bank account.
1857
02:28:50.880 --> 02:28:56.725
Like, it has nothing to do with Bitcoin. It has everything to do with the the the traditional financial system.
1858
02:28:57.185 --> 02:28:59.685
Them them hitting that wall and going,
1859
02:28:59.985 --> 02:29:00.965
oh my god.
1860
02:29:01.721 --> 02:29:09.580
Like, the government's requiring me to give all this fucking information to this random ass dollar cost averaging company called Swan Bitcoin
1861
02:29:12.205 --> 02:29:13.745
is is is blasphemous.
1862
02:29:14.125 --> 02:29:15.745
That's a ridiculous concept.
1863
02:29:16.285 --> 02:29:17.425
Like, that realization
1864
02:29:18.180 --> 02:29:20.199
almost sells them on Bitcoin itself.
1865
02:29:22.659 --> 02:29:27.000
1866
02:29:28.925 --> 02:29:30.625
and, you know, I mean, that that's how,
1867
02:29:31.965 --> 02:29:34.226
you know, the majority of Bitcoiners
1868
02:29:34.686 --> 02:29:37.980
started. I mean, like, if you gotta think if you were, I guess,
1869
02:29:38.680 --> 02:29:39.980
in the class of 2015,
1870
02:29:40.760 --> 02:29:43.500
right, or 2014, 2015. Right? Like,
1871
02:29:44.725 --> 02:29:45.465
you were
1872
02:29:46.165 --> 02:29:53.630
alright. Or 2016, I guess, would be better. You know, you you were just like, yeah. Let me get Bitcoin. Right? And then you learn, and then you go through the pains.
1873
02:29:55.310 --> 02:29:57.970
And I and I've talked about this with a lot of people. It's like,
1874
02:29:58.510 --> 02:30:12.450
it's a people a lot of people need to learn through, like, getting burned. Right? Like, if you try to explain to people and and, like, ultimately, like, they kinda get it, but they don't truly understand when we say not your keys, not your Bitcoin.
1875
02:30:13.070 --> 02:30:15.250
Like, a lot of people don't really
1876
02:30:15.790 --> 02:30:16.290
understand
1877
02:30:16.910 --> 02:30:17.410
why,
1878
02:30:18.186 --> 02:30:22.525
like, had like, owning it makes sense. So you have to put it in a way it makes sense to them. But,
1879
02:30:23.226 --> 02:30:25.325
you know, the same thing. It it's a journey,
1880
02:30:26.266 --> 02:30:41.075
and that's why I don't fight it, you know, when people are like, I just wanna get Bitcoin right now. I want the easiest way to get it at this price before the price goes up. I wanna get it immediately and da da da. And and I get it. You know? Like, I don't normally fight them.
1881
02:30:42.335 --> 02:30:51.930
I have had some people that were like, holy shit. Like, I wanna buy, you know, 50 k of Bitcoin right now. And I'm like, I can't supply that. But,
1882
02:30:52.950 --> 02:30:54.170
1883
02:30:54.615 --> 02:30:59.675
1884
02:31:00.295 --> 02:31:03.020
Yeah. Before that was before. That was before it was,
1885
02:31:03.500 --> 02:31:04.060
you know,
1886
02:31:05.579 --> 02:31:07.760
But either way, you know, it's like
1887
02:31:08.859 --> 02:31:14.955
because they they understood understood the benefit. Right? And not everyone gets it, and it and it takes time,
1888
02:31:15.335 --> 02:31:20.475
and it takes time for people to to go down the rabbit hole. And that's part of our
1889
02:31:20.775 --> 02:31:22.155
I don't wanna say duty
1890
02:31:22.570 --> 02:31:31.311
because I got out of that. I I remember being all about, like, educating people and teaching all the normies that I work with or whoever I came in contact with.
1891
02:31:31.985 --> 02:31:38.725
It becomes a big hassle. You know, it becomes a big and I and I give respect to you, Matt, and, like, other people that do this where it's like,
1892
02:31:39.160 --> 02:31:47.580
man, like, especially, like, you when you go from a bull market to a bear market. And then all the people that you're, like, no shit friends with are like, you know, what the fuck?
1893
02:31:48.115 --> 02:31:55.104
And you just have to be, like, go back to the fundamentals of Bitcoin, and if they got into it assets.
1894
02:31:55.790 --> 02:32:00.770
Yeah. Like, and if they got into it for for, you know, the wrong reason,
1895
02:32:01.149 --> 02:32:03.465
then they're just sitting there disgruntled and pissed,
1896
02:32:03.865 --> 02:32:05.125
You know? But,
1897
02:32:05.705 --> 02:32:06.205
ultimately,
1898
02:32:07.225 --> 02:32:08.445
you know, the like, if
1899
02:32:09.385 --> 02:32:10.845
if they're gonna buy KYC,
1900
02:32:11.305 --> 02:32:14.220
like, they're gonna buy KYC, you know, and
1901
02:32:14.920 --> 02:32:17.580
our job is to make sure oh god. Hold on.
1902
02:32:19.775 --> 02:32:25.555
Guys, if you guys if you find can we just Hey. Jake, can you say hi? I can. Say hi, Spider Man.
1903
02:32:25.855 --> 02:32:26.675
Say hi.
1904
02:32:27.230 --> 02:32:30.770
1905
02:32:31.230 --> 02:32:34.050
1906
02:32:34.426 --> 02:32:35.886
1907
02:32:36.665 --> 02:32:42.285
be prepared to pay taxes. There's just no way out of it. Unless you're gonna freaking, you know, take a risk,
1908
02:32:43.229 --> 02:32:46.370
you're gonna have to pay taxes. And that's the way out of it.
1909
02:32:47.310 --> 02:32:50.609
That is. I mean, hey. You're gonna buy KYC.
1910
02:32:51.575 --> 02:32:56.955
You're gonna have to deal with the consequences. Right? Yeah. I mean, we had we had the former
1911
02:32:57.335 --> 02:32:59.915
1912
02:33:01.341 --> 02:33:04.320
the clip that we started this episode with, but she wasn't.
1913
02:33:05.101 --> 02:33:06.080
And she said
1914
02:33:06.540 --> 02:33:09.280
the main thing that the US dollar has over cryptocurrencies
1915
02:33:09.900 --> 02:33:10.400
is
1916
02:33:10.955 --> 02:33:16.975
that the US dollar doesn't have capital gains taxes when you spend it. And I thought twofold, I thought, okay,
1917
02:33:17.435 --> 02:33:19.695
you created those taxes. And second fold,
1918
02:33:20.200 --> 02:33:24.220
we only pay capital gains taxes because our money increases in value.
1919
02:33:24.770 --> 02:33:25.270
So
1920
02:33:27.614 --> 02:33:34.354
that's great that you have a money that just loses money loses value every fucking year. Of course, you don't have to pay fucking taxes on it.
1921
02:33:35.910 --> 02:33:39.370
1922
02:33:39.750 --> 02:33:40.250
Like,
1923
02:33:40.870 --> 02:33:43.370
if you spend Bitcoin as a currency,
1924
02:33:43.976 --> 02:33:47.676
you get tax capital gains. Can we just say how how, like, absolutely
1925
02:33:48.375 --> 02:33:48.875
stupid?
1926
02:33:49.176 --> 02:33:53.590
1927
02:33:54.210 --> 02:33:58.069
I know I'm running a a live show here where anything can be said,
1928
02:33:58.609 --> 02:34:02.435
but these are not the type of discussions I want to have on the show.
1929
02:34:03.135 --> 02:34:03.455
So,
1930
02:34:04.735 --> 02:34:09.475
because this is all this is all this is all forever, and I do not want this to be
1931
02:34:09.950 --> 02:34:14.770
forever. So I will not we will not discuss we will not discuss this topic,
1932
02:34:15.229 --> 02:34:16.770
and we will continue on.
1933
02:34:17.614 --> 02:34:19.795
Do you guys have any opinion on Taproot?
1934
02:34:20.255 --> 02:34:21.074
Either view.
1935
02:34:24.130 --> 02:34:26.470
1936
02:34:28.210 --> 02:34:29.350
1937
02:34:29.810 --> 02:34:31.490
a lot equals true. So
1938
02:34:32.365 --> 02:34:44.640
1939
02:34:46.700 --> 02:34:50.960
Let let's let's let's hear, let's what do you what do you think
1940
02:34:51.375 --> 02:34:54.915
about Taproot? Do you have you guys either either of you guys have opinions on Taproot?
1941
02:34:55.695 --> 02:34:58.274
1942
02:34:58.730 --> 02:35:02.190
it shouldn't become it it shouldn't come to a big mess where
1943
02:35:03.370 --> 02:35:04.910
everyone has to basically
1944
02:35:06.115 --> 02:35:08.775
commit to something that might not come true.
1945
02:35:09.395 --> 02:35:10.375
That's my opinion.
1946
02:35:10.755 --> 02:35:16.851
It's just you know, it it seems that there is a a lot of dre sauce on it. People are, you know, trying to
1947
02:35:18.270 --> 02:35:22.210
basically commit to it and there there all these requirements, and
1948
02:35:24.365 --> 02:35:26.065
I think it should just go through.
1949
02:35:28.766 --> 02:35:30.306
1950
02:35:30.700 --> 02:35:32.160
You have an opinion on Taproot?
1951
02:35:33.580 --> 02:35:34.320
1952
02:35:35.180 --> 02:35:38.225
I know that the the majority of the benefit comes
1953
02:35:39.265 --> 02:35:41.045
to MultiSig users. Right?
1954
02:35:42.784 --> 02:35:45.125
I I know it's not the only one, and
1955
02:35:46.740 --> 02:35:48.680
I would like to hear your opinion on it.
1956
02:35:49.940 --> 02:35:51.240
You know, I'm not,
1957
02:35:53.035 --> 02:35:54.495
you know, I'm not crazy,
1958
02:35:55.274 --> 02:35:57.295
you know, for or against anything.
1959
02:35:58.154 --> 02:35:59.215
If it's a benefit
1960
02:35:59.755 --> 02:36:00.255
to,
1961
02:36:00.880 --> 02:36:04.020
you know, to overall Bitcoin, then, yeah, like, let's do it. But,
1962
02:36:05.439 --> 02:36:13.895
because I I feel like in in Bitcoin in general, right, like, to try to get I guess it's a benefit in general. Right? Like We want Taproot. I think we want Taproot.
1963
02:36:14.195 --> 02:36:15.035
1964
02:36:15.475 --> 02:36:20.470
Our our boys over at Samurai want Taproot, but they're just so broken that they just don't wanna participate.
1965
02:36:21.250 --> 02:36:27.430
I think they I think, like, T Dev I think T Dev wants Taproot. Like, I think I think it benefits Samurai.
1966
02:36:28.285 --> 02:36:32.065
1967
02:36:33.165 --> 02:36:34.125
I'm sure that if,
1968
02:36:35.245 --> 02:36:35.745
if
1969
02:36:36.619 --> 02:36:37.119
Taproot,
1970
02:36:37.979 --> 02:36:48.104
1971
02:36:48.405 --> 02:36:50.185
I won't believe it until I see it.
1972
02:36:50.564 --> 02:36:55.529
1973
02:36:55.909 --> 02:36:59.369
in, like, innovation in Bitcoin, right, with Segway?
1974
02:36:59.670 --> 02:37:03.255
1975
02:37:04.854 --> 02:37:14.670
1976
02:37:15.130 --> 02:37:36.010
1977
02:37:36.390 --> 02:37:42.415
whether or not they will admit it, they both want Taproot to happen, and we're gonna make Taproot happen. It's gonna happen.
1978
02:37:43.275 --> 02:37:52.000
It might be the last thing that happens, but it will happen, and, it'll be a massive improvement for Bitcoin. I agree with that. I think there's a big chance that it will happen.
1979
02:37:52.700 --> 02:38:01.305
It's gonna happen. There's there's there's pretty much no inertia against it. So I think it'll happen, and I think it'll be very good for Bitcoin privacy.
1980
02:38:02.005 --> 02:38:04.505
But but to be absolutely clear, like,
1981
02:38:05.640 --> 02:38:07.260
Bitcoin privacy sucks.
1982
02:38:07.640 --> 02:38:11.899
So it's it's it's easy to have a massive improvement for Bitcoin privacy.
1983
02:38:12.615 --> 02:38:13.115
1984
02:38:13.895 --> 02:38:14.555
I mean,
1985
02:38:17.495 --> 02:38:25.120
from from what I from what I understand and I'm I'm not gonna sit here and tell all your users that I'm, like, super in-depth on on Taproot, and that's mostly because
1986
02:38:25.900 --> 02:38:31.415
I I don't know. It it always seemed hyped that it'll happen, and we've been hearing about it for so long.
1987
02:38:32.355 --> 02:38:32.855
But,
1988
02:38:33.636 --> 02:38:43.920
I mean, it like I said, if it's a net like you said, if it's a net negative or a net positive rather so if it's a net positive for Bitcoin privacy, like, you you will see it, and we'll see it in Samurais.
1989
02:38:45.635 --> 02:38:49.175
And then, yeah, we'll we'll make all the changes. And,
1990
02:38:50.035 --> 02:38:53.875
ultimately, like, anything that's beneficial for our privacy, we need to start taking
1991
02:38:54.390 --> 02:38:56.329
It blows my mind that we've been
1992
02:38:56.630 --> 02:38:58.649
in this game for this long,
1993
02:38:59.590 --> 02:39:04.556
and we don't see things Like, we see massive changes in
1994
02:39:05.016 --> 02:39:05.516
in,
1995
02:39:07.096 --> 02:39:07.835
you know,
1996
02:39:08.295 --> 02:39:08.795
benefits
1997
02:39:09.260 --> 02:39:12.800
that happen from the wallet level. Like, why why in the world
1998
02:39:13.180 --> 02:39:14.239
are there things that
1999
02:39:14.540 --> 02:39:17.920
wallets are doing that are net benefit to Bitcoin
2000
02:39:18.255 --> 02:39:20.435
that are not implemented at the core level
2001
02:39:21.055 --> 02:39:23.155
is beyond me. You know, like
2002
02:39:23.615 --> 02:39:26.354
like, we talked about bit 47. What we're about, bro.
2003
02:39:26.655 --> 02:39:27.955
2004
02:39:29.760 --> 02:39:30.660
Right? Obviously.
2005
02:39:31.360 --> 02:39:35.700
2006
02:39:36.165 --> 02:39:41.944
Being harder to change the core code is probably better. Right? Like, it's, more stable.
2007
02:39:42.484 --> 02:39:42.885
It's,
2008
02:39:43.604 --> 02:39:44.745
less risk adverse.
2009
02:39:45.061 --> 02:39:47.080
2010
02:39:47.381 --> 02:39:48.520
2011
02:39:49.620 --> 02:39:51.240
core repo, but, like,
2012
02:39:52.101 --> 02:39:52.601
like,
2013
02:39:53.141 --> 02:39:54.280
Bitcoin as a whole
2014
02:39:55.056 --> 02:39:58.976
I I don't know. I'm I'm kinda torn torn on it. I think,
2015
02:39:59.535 --> 02:40:04.230
you know, I think all the best changes happen, like, from what I've seen over the past,
2016
02:40:04.631 --> 02:40:09.450
you know, 4 years, the best changes happen at the wallet level. I mean, no one asked
2017
02:40:09.990 --> 02:40:12.891
no no one asked Core if they could do like, once,
2018
02:40:13.426 --> 02:40:18.086
I guess, I I was about to say lightning, but I guess I couldn't use that as an example. No. Lightning's a perfect example.
2019
02:40:18.785 --> 02:40:30.825
2020
02:40:33.685 --> 02:40:44.189
2021
02:40:47.205 --> 02:40:51.945
2022
02:40:53.189 --> 02:40:54.970
you know, let's make it happen. But,
2023
02:40:57.430 --> 02:41:01.770
yeah, overall, I mean, I think the core devs like, core devs really need to
2024
02:41:03.495 --> 02:41:07.015
be be really thinking about the privacy side. Like, I I really
2025
02:41:07.975 --> 02:41:11.115
it blows my mind that, like, we've seen hardware wallet
2026
02:41:11.980 --> 02:41:14.800
improvements to Bitcoin core before we've seen
2027
02:41:15.180 --> 02:41:15.680
privacy
2028
02:41:16.300 --> 02:41:16.800
improvements.
2029
02:41:17.180 --> 02:41:17.680
Like,
2030
02:41:17.980 --> 02:41:23.664
that doesn't even make sense. Like, there are bips that are out there that would improve Bitcoin privacy
2031
02:41:24.604 --> 02:41:25.104
across
2032
02:41:25.484 --> 02:41:27.744
across all wallets from a core level
2033
02:41:28.204 --> 02:41:29.425
that we could implement,
2034
02:41:29.740 --> 02:41:35.280
but we choose to do other like, add other things that are not nearly as important.
2035
02:41:37.145 --> 02:41:43.885
Now I don't have to say hardware wallets aren't important, but, like, hardware wallet interface from the core wallet, like like,
2036
02:41:44.265 --> 02:41:53.840
it's good. I'm not I know you're a hardware wallet guy, but, like, honestly, I would rather I think privacy is more important in my personal opinion. Yeah. Well, we're not fucking competing.
2037
02:41:55.285 --> 02:41:56.105
We're competing.
2038
02:41:56.485 --> 02:42:00.025
2039
02:42:02.006 --> 02:42:08.710
2040
02:42:09.330 --> 02:42:12.949
I mean, don't don't get me wrong. I have a very, very, very small amount
2041
02:42:13.295 --> 02:42:14.994
on card cold card,
2042
02:42:15.534 --> 02:42:20.835
2043
02:42:21.390 --> 02:42:26.689
2044
02:42:27.229 --> 02:42:28.529
So, you know, whatever.
2045
02:42:29.375 --> 02:42:32.415
2046
02:42:33.295 --> 02:42:39.620
2047
02:42:40.000 --> 02:42:41.460
2048
02:42:42.319 --> 02:42:43.620
your thoughts on bit 47,
2049
02:42:44.000 --> 02:42:50.825
2050
02:42:51.205 --> 02:43:03.670
That's that's that's the I I I mean, that that's that's the major issue. It's a major issue if you're trying to accept donations. If you're trying to accept donations and you need the person to not only have an Android phone, but they have to have this specific fucking app
2051
02:43:04.795 --> 02:43:08.814
to donate to you is an issue. That's a that's a fucking massive issue.
2052
02:43:09.274 --> 02:43:17.220
Yeah. I agree with that. Not Tamara's fault. That is it's ridiculous that no one else offers BIP 46. This is very ridiculous. To the
2053
02:43:17.760 --> 02:43:21.380
point where it's it's it's pretty fucking funny because,
2054
02:43:24.615 --> 02:43:27.355
I'm Matt Odell, so I have I have some
2055
02:43:27.815 --> 02:43:29.355
some ability to,
2056
02:43:30.141 --> 02:43:32.000
people ask me to be an adviser,
2057
02:43:32.700 --> 02:43:34.880
but, like, I just say all this shit publicly,
2058
02:43:35.900 --> 02:43:46.740
you know, publicly. Add BIP 47. Like, what do you what do you think I'm telling the people I have buy? I'm just like, add BIP 47. Like, can you add BIP 47? Can you add It's unbelievable, Odessa.
2059
02:43:47.440 --> 02:43:51.860
I literally everything I say on the podcast is what I tell people privately
2060
02:43:52.240 --> 02:43:52.740
when,
2061
02:43:54.245 --> 02:44:00.505
they they ask me to be an adviser. Like, I literally just I just repeat exactly what I say publicly.
2062
02:44:00.811 --> 02:44:01.551
2063
02:44:01.931 --> 02:44:07.391
amazing that none of these wallets it's amazing that none of these wallets offer this feature where,
2064
02:44:08.145 --> 02:44:13.605
you know, you can literally just have increase your privacy tenfold just by using bit 47.
2065
02:44:14.226 --> 02:44:16.565
Yeah. I mean, you know People are really amazing.
2066
02:44:18.500 --> 02:44:23.080
2067
02:44:23.940 --> 02:44:26.680
the fact that I mean, we we talked about licensing
2068
02:44:27.075 --> 02:44:27.895
and the fact
2069
02:44:28.275 --> 02:44:32.455
that Samura is open source and anybody can utilize the tools that they have,
2070
02:44:32.915 --> 02:44:36.055
but we don't see the adoption across any other wallets.
2071
02:44:36.470 --> 02:44:42.489
Like, we don't see Postmixed tools. We don't see added adding Whirlpool. Like, they can add Whirlpool.
2072
02:44:43.029 --> 02:44:44.729
Right? They can absolutely
2073
02:44:45.575 --> 02:44:46.455
add Whirlpool to
2074
02:44:47.814 --> 02:44:49.515
sorry. The banner was funny.
2075
02:44:49.895 --> 02:44:51.995
2076
02:44:53.420 --> 02:45:04.665
2077
02:45:05.765 --> 02:45:08.265
And we don't see it because of
2078
02:45:08.670 --> 02:45:09.170
ego
2079
02:45:09.550 --> 02:45:10.770
and politics.
2080
02:45:11.390 --> 02:45:16.529
Like, that's not where we should be in Bitcoin. That's not where we should be at this time and space in Bitcoin,
2081
02:45:17.045 --> 02:45:18.425
and we should see people
2082
02:45:18.885 --> 02:45:20.745
trying to add the best tools
2083
02:45:21.205 --> 02:45:35.910
to the to the at the wallet level since core dev's going back to core dev. Since they don't wanna add these things, that's totally cool. But the wallets, the wallet developers should be adding those things. Like, why are we not there? Why are we not doing that? Why are why are exchanges not adding BIP 47
2084
02:45:36.435 --> 02:45:40.534
so that they can just send it to, you know, to that person's BIP,
2085
02:45:40.994 --> 02:45:41.895
to their fucking
2086
02:45:42.274 --> 02:45:43.814
BIP address. Right? Like,
2087
02:45:44.311 --> 02:45:51.370
you never need a a new address. You never need to send to the same address. You just send to the same bit thing. It it makes perfect sense.
2088
02:45:56.575 --> 02:45:57.314
2089
02:45:58.415 --> 02:46:01.795
It makes it makes me fucking live it. I'm angry, freaks.
2090
02:46:02.410 --> 02:46:03.630
Angry angry Matt.
2091
02:46:07.050 --> 02:46:13.505
Okay. He's all kinds. All kinds. Yeah. We we got we gotta we gotta finish this up. But before we finish this up,
2092
02:46:14.285 --> 02:46:17.186
I just want are you guys celebrating Saint Patty's tomorrow?
2093
02:46:18.590 --> 02:46:19.970
It's, like, my favorite holiday.
2094
02:46:20.590 --> 02:46:22.450
2095
02:46:24.430 --> 02:46:28.006
2096
02:46:28.785 --> 02:46:29.846
Saint Patty's Day.
2097
02:46:31.985 --> 02:46:33.365
2098
02:46:34.226 --> 02:46:37.090
Everyone, regardless of nationality, should,
2099
02:46:37.890 --> 02:46:39.430
celebrate Saint Patty's Day,
2100
02:46:40.050 --> 02:46:42.470
as should everyone add BIV 47.
2101
02:46:44.450 --> 02:46:45.830
I don't really have,
2102
02:46:47.175 --> 02:46:52.555
anything to bring us together. I mean, I I'm glad that both of you guys agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever,
2103
02:46:53.175 --> 02:46:55.354
which is an important aspect of joining us.
2104
02:46:57.010 --> 02:46:58.150
So that's important.
2105
02:46:59.410 --> 02:47:00.550
I I I guess
2106
02:47:01.090 --> 02:47:07.484
one thing that I want everyone I mean, I assume neither of you guys have opinions on Liquid because you haven't used it. Right?
2107
02:47:10.061 --> 02:47:16.160
2108
02:47:16.461 --> 02:47:17.681
I can give you my
2109
02:47:18.141 --> 02:47:23.575
my, you know, not using an opinion on the way. Haven't used it, you have no opinion.
2110
02:47:24.194 --> 02:47:36.900
2111
02:47:37.824 --> 02:47:41.364
2112
02:47:42.864 --> 02:48:04.500
2113
02:48:05.120 --> 02:48:10.660
I love that dude. I met him at Bitbuck Boom. He's gonna come with like, woah to Bitcoin Miami.
2114
02:48:11.335 --> 02:48:15.274
All the freaks should join us. Use code humble, all caps.
2115
02:48:15.734 --> 02:48:19.994
They did rug pull me, but we still have 15% off, which is more than their,
2116
02:48:20.819 --> 02:48:23.720
10% off, which they're offering to the general plebs.
2117
02:48:24.260 --> 02:48:27.720
So our plebs get an additional 5% off,
2118
02:48:28.085 --> 02:48:32.745
and I make 0 money off of this again. I, you know, I I just do it for you guys.
2119
02:48:34.404 --> 02:48:38.351
There's a good chance that maybe this conference just ends up in a complete clusterfuck.
2120
02:48:38.811 --> 02:48:44.155
In that regard, I will just take the fucking l, and I will just shove the sword right through my heart,
2121
02:48:44.875 --> 02:48:46.815
and I will regret that that happened.
2122
02:48:47.275 --> 02:48:52.895
But my goal is to make the biggest party ever, and then that's what I think is going to fucking happen.
2123
02:48:54.080 --> 02:48:57.300
That being said, so we have no Saint Patty's Day celebration.
2124
02:48:58.240 --> 02:48:59.940
Twitter is censoring us
2125
02:49:00.375 --> 02:49:09.435
probably because, like, Woah, post a bunch of titties, and they want to censor me based off of that. You guys both agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever.
2126
02:49:09.750 --> 02:49:11.530
You have no opinion on liquid.
2127
02:49:12.390 --> 02:49:14.330
All the freaks are gonna use code humble.
2128
02:49:15.030 --> 02:49:16.729
Win solo is great.
2129
02:49:17.255 --> 02:49:25.835
Guns and Bitcoin Guns and Bitcoin. That's something we had to cover before we leave. Guns and Bitcoin is a conference that's gonna be happening in Austin,
2130
02:49:26.511 --> 02:49:27.490
April what?
2131
02:49:28.591 --> 02:49:29.091
2132
02:49:29.710 --> 02:49:31.330
2133
02:49:31.950 --> 02:49:32.770
2134
02:49:33.365 --> 02:49:35.145
2135
02:49:36.165 --> 02:49:39.145
I have it for the people who are watching the video, gunsandbitcoin.com.
2136
02:49:41.140 --> 02:49:46.840
2137
02:49:47.220 --> 02:49:58.060
2138
02:49:58.939 --> 02:50:00.399
And they also have,
2139
02:50:02.220 --> 02:50:08.035
you University of Austin is also going to, have a conference esque thing for Bitcoin.
2140
02:50:08.734 --> 02:50:11.234
And Quinsolo is in the comments. Quinsolo.comquinsolo
2141
02:50:15.181 --> 02:50:17.681
dotcom. Great customized Bitcoin stuff.
2142
02:50:18.460 --> 02:50:28.175
I love both of you guys. Thank you for joining. We're gonna have you back on pretty soon. Do you have any last comments, before we we hit the freaks with a a beautiful sign off?
2143
02:50:28.875 --> 02:50:29.375
2144
02:50:29.915 --> 02:50:38.870
I just wanna say we're about to have a run-in to do a 1.9 out, that I'll give most of credit to, like, what has been crushing it.
2145
02:50:39.570 --> 02:50:42.775
We're gonna have a lot of new features, a lot of cool stuff, and then,
2146
02:50:43.555 --> 02:50:45.895
we'll be shipping out some
2147
02:50:46.675 --> 02:50:48.695
full nodes coming out, some
2148
02:50:49.270 --> 02:50:53.370
custom cases, something that most I mean, I we've been showing it on Twitter, but
2149
02:50:53.910 --> 02:50:57.931
something unlike anything that you guys have been seeing in the in the space.
2150
02:50:58.285 --> 02:51:01.585
So some new designs, some new stuff going on, and,
2151
02:51:02.205 --> 02:51:03.985
you know, the goal is to,
2152
02:51:04.445 --> 02:51:07.505
you know, bring bring privacy to everybody in an easy manner.
2153
02:51:08.239 --> 02:51:08.739
So
2154
02:51:09.279 --> 02:51:12.340
shout out to to Laquo and the rest of our team because they've been
2155
02:51:12.720 --> 02:51:15.220
carrying carrying the load for me.
2156
02:51:18.966 --> 02:51:24.485
2157
02:51:25.370 --> 02:51:32.510
video for Lenox Raven said, are there ways to spend taxes change? I will say talk to Bitcoin in QA. He has a lot of resources on that.
2158
02:51:33.595 --> 02:51:38.175
A true Twitter said, I don't want to have a stupid Raspberry Pi on my desk to have a note running.
2159
02:51:38.555 --> 02:51:50.479
Why can't I have software that can spin up the software and and virtual private server? Samurai Dojo can run on x86 by default. So vanilla samurai Dojo, you can run it on x86. So you don't have to wait for Ronan Dojo.
2160
02:51:51.715 --> 02:51:55.495
Truth Twitter said, what are best practices of spinning out of postmates?
2161
02:51:57.875 --> 02:51:59.814
Make every spin a coin joint.
2162
02:52:00.900 --> 02:52:01.400
So,
2163
02:52:01.940 --> 02:52:05.160
you know, please ask See Lightning Network if you're gonna
2164
02:52:05.780 --> 02:52:11.025
add lightning. If we add lightning on Golden Dojo, you'll see lightning. Don't worry. And
2165
02:52:12.445 --> 02:52:16.145
and somebody asked, Jenna, are open tights washer dryer safe?
2166
02:52:16.605 --> 02:52:20.380
You have to use Clorox bleach, and it will heat safe.
2167
02:52:21.320 --> 02:52:25.900
And I love the last one the last one, 1031 s is like, while still drinking?
2168
02:52:26.335 --> 02:52:27.635
Yes. Yes.
2169
02:52:28.095 --> 02:52:31.154
2170
02:52:31.694 --> 02:52:36.930
he knows the truth of where I stand on on any of the lightning implementations.
2171
02:52:37.310 --> 02:52:40.930
2172
02:52:41.710 --> 02:52:43.090
This was fucking fantastic.
2173
02:52:43.726 --> 02:52:46.385
Bitcoin is gonna rule the world. Thank you guys for,
2174
02:52:47.245 --> 02:52:50.306
stepping up and running families. Like, that's fucking awesome.
2175
02:52:51.561 --> 02:52:55.900
I look forward to seeing you both in Bitcoin Miami for for Bitcoin 2021,
2176
02:52:57.480 --> 02:53:01.421
June 4th 5th. Use code humble for 15% off.
2177
02:53:02.265 --> 02:53:04.604
Thank you, Freaks, for joining us live.
2178
02:53:05.305 --> 02:53:08.445
Thank you, Freaks, for joining us not live in the podcast.
2179
02:53:10.131 --> 02:53:13.910
This is what it's about. We're gonna fucking win. There's a 1000000 people.
2180
02:53:14.370 --> 02:53:17.830
There's billions of people who have no fucking idea
2181
02:53:18.205 --> 02:53:27.745
what the fuck is going on, but we realize what's going on. That is fucking ridiculous. Like, this it blows my mind every day, but here we are together. I love you all. I'll see
2182
02:53:28.190 --> 02:53:31.490
you on Thursday for a rabbit hole recap. I'll see you next Tuesday
2183
02:53:31.870 --> 02:53:50.399
for the next Citadel Dispatch. We have a fucking crazy lineup for Citadel Dispatch next week. I'm never set up ahead of time, but this time, I was set up with the Ronin Dojo guys because I love them, and we were prepared ahead of time. And next week, I'm set up with Lightning Gaming. We're gonna do, like, a bunch of lightning shit. It's gonna be all about gaming and and
2184
02:53:50.859 --> 02:53:52.239
and killing people and
2185
02:53:53.516 --> 02:54:00.440
and and making stats for it, and it's gonna be a it's gonna be a lot of fun. So join us next week, but also join us for our HR on Thursday. Love you all.
2186
02:54:34.915 --> 02:54:36.295
2187
02:54:43.270 --> 02:54:44.330
Never feel happy.
2188
02:58:28.360 --> 02:58:32.460
2189
02:58:33.025 --> 02:58:38.005
I'll see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap. Look forward to seeing you next Tuesday
2190
02:58:39.025 --> 02:58:40.565
for Bitcoin Tuesday
2191
02:58:41.360 --> 02:58:42.900
instead of that dispatch
2192
02:58:43.440 --> 02:58:44.420
episode 14.
2193
02:58:45.040 --> 02:58:46.979
I love you all. Have a great weekend.
2194
02:58:47.280 --> 02:58:49.140
Stay humble. Stack stats.
