March 3, 2021
CD11: Trading vs Stacking, Open Source Dev, and Taproot Activation with @jamesob and @evankaloudis
EPISODE: 0.1.1
BLOCK: 672886
PRICE: 2107 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Trading vs Stacking, Open Source Dev, and Taproot Activation
streamed live every tuesday:
https://citadeldispatch.com
twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch
bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos
podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch
telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch
support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: http://citadel.chat/
00:00 - Paying municipal workers in Bitcoin
00:13 - Investing in different commodities
01:18 - Studying Bitcoin as an investment
46:27 - KYC and no KYC options
47:26 - Bitcoin as a utility token for cross-border transfers
48:33 - The importance of financial privacy
01:30:24 - Discussion about RINA cold card and other hardware wallets
01:32:12 - Question about running Bitcoin Core locally with Coldcore
01:39:32 - Discussion about the importance of open source software and funding models
02:12:15 - Legal arbitrage and the effectiveness of n image
02:13:11 - Rebuilding identity and track record when moving to NIM
02:20:14 - The most important thing to work on in Bitcoin
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:06 PM
Duration: 9901.062
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.399 --> 00:00:02.659
Generate a lot of headlines because you suggested
2
00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:09.975
let, you know, paying municipal workers in Bitcoin, putting some of the city's reserves in Bitcoin, letting people pay taxes in Bitcoin.
3
00:00:10.835 --> 00:00:23.289
Isn't that risky? And tell me how would that work. Obviously, anytime you invest in anything, of course, it's risky. Absolutely no obligation whatsoever for any of our employees to do that. In terms of the investment part, we invest in a variety of different commodities,
4
00:00:23.965 --> 00:00:53.740
whether they be, you know, sugar, pork bellies, whatever the commodity may be. Well, sure. But none of those other commodities fluctuate 10, 20% in a day the way Bitcoin does. That's why it's something that we're studying, necessarily something we're jumping right into. I wanna read something that treasury secretary Janet Yellen said. Bitcoin is an extremely inefficient way of conducting transactions and is a highly speculative asset. I mean, so when you hear that from the treasury secretary, doesn't it make you think twice? It doesn't surprise me at all that a treasury secretary would find a decentralized,
5
00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:55.500
potential currency,
6
00:00:55.800 --> 00:01:02.965
to be hostile to to a currency that they control. For people who invest in Bitcoin, the allure is precisely that it's not backed by a central,
7
00:01:04.244 --> 00:01:09.790
government. So it's not manipulatable by a central You were talking about investing government resources
8
00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:11.630
in this completely decentralized
9
00:01:11.930 --> 00:01:13.870
resource, which I scares people a bit.
10
00:01:14.605 --> 00:01:19.825
Does it scare you? I guess it scares you. I don't I don't live here. I don't know. I guess it scares you. It doesn't scare you.
11
00:01:20.205 --> 00:01:24.600
It you know, I think it's something worth studying. I think it's something worth studying and worth looking at.
12
00:02:01.020 --> 00:02:02.960
Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
13
00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:12.395
And we're here for another week of Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
14
00:02:12.855 --> 00:02:17.520
I'm your host, Matt O'Dell. Big welcome to all the freaks joining us here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.
15
00:02:18.620 --> 00:02:21.360
That clip was mayor Francis Suarez
16
00:02:21.820 --> 00:02:22.560
of Miami
17
00:02:23.075 --> 00:02:26.055
calling out treasury sec secretary Janet Yellen,
18
00:02:26.755 --> 00:02:31.495
for frankly being scared of better money. It appears that the Bitcoin deniers
19
00:02:32.010 --> 00:02:33.390
are transitioning to
20
00:02:33.690 --> 00:02:34.590
a new narrative
21
00:02:34.970 --> 00:02:38.190
where the only way they can protect their shitty money
22
00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:39.710
is to prevent
23
00:02:40.974 --> 00:02:41.474
Americans
24
00:02:41.775 --> 00:02:45.474
from having the choice and the freedom to choose which money they want to do,
25
00:02:45.855 --> 00:02:48.830
which is just really telling if if I'm gonna be frank about it.
26
00:02:49.470 --> 00:02:51.810
I'm excited that this week, we are joined
27
00:02:52.190 --> 00:02:54.690
by James O'Byrne at jamesob
28
00:02:55.390 --> 00:03:00.735
and our good friend Evan Kaludes who this is the first 3 Pete on the podcast joining us for the 3rd time.
29
00:03:01.114 --> 00:03:04.334
James is the lead maintainer of Coldcore.
30
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.180
He's also a Bitcoin core developer
31
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:11.300
and has experience in open source dev across the board.
32
00:03:12.765 --> 00:03:16.144
Evan, you guys know Evan well. He is the lead maintainer of Zeus,
33
00:03:16.845 --> 00:03:17.665
Lightning Wallet.
34
00:03:18.444 --> 00:03:21.584
They're both former New York BitCorners alongside me.
35
00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:26.900
This time last year or maybe a little bit earlier than this time last year, we were partying,
36
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:31.755
in New York City, and today, we are separated across the world.
37
00:03:32.455 --> 00:03:35.915
So it is very exciting to have them both back here,
38
00:03:36.215 --> 00:03:41.670
for today's show. Since Evan has been here before, let's start off with James. James, how's it going?
39
00:03:42.450 --> 00:03:45.990
Matt, great to be here, man. Thanks for having me on. And,
40
00:03:46.755 --> 00:03:47.575
Evan, congratulations
41
00:03:47.875 --> 00:03:48.935
on the hat trick.
42
00:03:49.315 --> 00:03:50.694
It's a big deal.
43
00:03:51.155 --> 00:03:52.215
Thanks a lot, James.
44
00:03:52.675 --> 00:03:57.200
Just glad to be sitting down with you. It's gonna be a fun one, Yeah, man. Absolutely. So let me,
45
00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:59.140
let me kick things off with
46
00:03:59.600 --> 00:04:00.340
the ceremonial
47
00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:03.860
opening of the India pale hard seltzer here.
48
00:04:04.795 --> 00:04:05.455
Get started.
49
00:04:07.275 --> 00:04:09.834
Man, I am I am just amazed that the,
50
00:04:10.635 --> 00:04:14.700
the interviewer there in that clip cites Janet Yellen as being,
51
00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:16.880
any sort of authority because
52
00:04:17.419 --> 00:04:19.919
if you look at her previous comments on,
53
00:04:20.825 --> 00:04:22.845
like, the housing crisis of 2007
54
00:04:23.865 --> 00:04:24.685
or the
55
00:04:25.225 --> 00:04:26.045
fact that
56
00:04:26.905 --> 00:04:37.980
the Fed's balance sheet roll off is gonna be like watching paint dry or, I think maybe a year or 2 ago, she said something along the lines of there'll never be another financial crisis again.
57
00:04:39.125 --> 00:04:42.905
It seems like Janet is her own contra indicator. So,
58
00:04:44.085 --> 00:04:49.620
if she's saying that that that Bitcoin's dangerous, then, I think it's safe to go the other direction.
59
00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:59.275
Yeah. So, I mean, that was the host who was speaking was, I guess, that's HBO's new, new show, in partnership with Axios.
60
00:04:59.775 --> 00:05:02.375
I guess, they got into a fight with Vice, so now,
61
00:05:03.175 --> 00:05:05.035
they they have an Axios series.
62
00:05:05.650 --> 00:05:09.470
I mean, I thought it was interesting, the whole, like, little discourse back and forth
63
00:05:09.770 --> 00:05:19.745
about being scared. Like, he asked, Francis if he was scared, and then he he kinda, you know, he kinda made it seem like he was scared, and then Francis was like, are you scared? And then he was like, well, I don't live here.
64
00:05:20.525 --> 00:05:21.185
But, like,
65
00:05:21.645 --> 00:05:25.060
we've seen time and time again, and we will see with these Bitcoin deniers
66
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:35.145
that, they don't care if they'd live in the area where they want you to deny Bitcoin. You know? Right. They they didn't care if if if US users are actually using something for them to try and,
67
00:05:35.865 --> 00:05:38.764
stop people's freedom to choose or freedom of privacy. Right?
68
00:05:39.225 --> 00:05:40.925
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely.
69
00:05:42.870 --> 00:05:45.289
Evan, thank you for joining us for a 3rd time.
70
00:05:45.830 --> 00:05:56.795
Yep. I can know what they say, Matt. 3rd time's a charm. Yeah. I'm I'm just really glad to be a part of the show and have the opportunity to just chat with, you know, great people in the space like James.
71
00:05:57.175 --> 00:06:00.475
Fuck. Yes. A great topic today. I'm looking forward to
72
00:06:00.889 --> 00:06:01.850
diving into. But,
73
00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:07.310
it was a really pretty clip up front with the Miami mayor. I just love this attitude.
74
00:06:08.255 --> 00:06:17.670
You know, growth starts at the edge of your comfort zones, and, you know, a lot of people getting into Bitcoin right now are gonna learn that. So more the merrier.
75
00:06:18.210 --> 00:06:21.910
Just bring them on. There's nothing to fear, freaks. I mean, talking about citadels,
76
00:06:23.205 --> 00:06:26.185
I mean, what was it? Was it, like, a year and a half ago,
77
00:06:27.525 --> 00:06:31.305
that we were doing the citadel workshops together with James there,
78
00:06:32.190 --> 00:06:33.250
in New York City
79
00:06:33.710 --> 00:06:35.330
in person, no masks.
80
00:06:36.270 --> 00:06:38.610
It's pretty crazy how time flies.
81
00:06:39.245 --> 00:06:43.425
That was a riot, and, we never saw any of this coming. I would have,
82
00:06:44.125 --> 00:06:52.560
yeah. Yeah. I would have, cherished those events that much more if I had known it was gonna be, you know, a delay of at least a year before I got to hang with you guys again.
83
00:06:54.645 --> 00:06:55.145
Well,
84
00:06:55.764 --> 00:06:57.525
fear not. It won't be the last, so,
85
00:06:58.805 --> 00:07:02.505
we'll get back to in person chilling soon enough. I'm sure.
86
00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:03.800
Yeah. For
87
00:07:04.340 --> 00:07:04.840
sure.
88
00:07:05.380 --> 00:07:06.600
Before we get started,
89
00:07:06.979 --> 00:07:11.884
I just did want to do a quick shout out to the Bitcoin 2021
90
00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:14.444
conference in Miami in June.
91
00:07:14.985 --> 00:07:19.164
The freaks that have been here in the past and are joining us through the podcast feed,
92
00:07:20.009 --> 00:07:24.110
are aware that I am trying to my best to help them throw a good party,
93
00:07:24.729 --> 00:07:27.630
in June. I, you know, I think Bitcoin will be pumping in price.
94
00:07:28.195 --> 00:07:39.300
They gave me my own unique code where I negotiated a better rate because I didn't want any kind I don't believe in, like, rufflings or anything. So I I just wanted all of it to go to the discount code. So they gave me 21%,
95
00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:39.919
and I
96
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.580
you freaks have just been demolishing this code. The code is humble, all caps.
97
00:07:45.225 --> 00:07:48.205
They are going to cut me off. They told me on Friday,
98
00:07:48.585 --> 00:08:03.550
they're cutting off my 21% discount. So if you are gonna do it, you should probably do it, before that. You know, or you can wait for number to go up because then the price will go down that way. And then one other thing I just wanted to add is this is broadcast via Twitch,
99
00:08:04.715 --> 00:08:06.095
YouTube, and Twitter.
100
00:08:06.555 --> 00:08:15.310
We have freeks joining us from all three of those things. It is important to realize that YouTube automatically cuts out the end of my show every week,
101
00:08:15.770 --> 00:08:22.345
because of copyright, and I kinda deserve that. It isn't cut off from Twitch. It isn't cut off from Twitter. If you go to sitaldispatch.com,
102
00:08:23.685 --> 00:08:32.960
I also have archives on Keybase and Telegram where you can download the full video file or the full audio file. There's also 2 podcast feeds. You can either listen to it,
103
00:08:33.580 --> 00:08:39.055
on the TFTC podcast feed or the the dedicated Citadel dispatch feed if you just search, Tales
104
00:08:41.055 --> 00:08:42.195
from the Crypt or Citadel dispatch on your podcast app of choice.
105
00:08:43.455 --> 00:08:47.475
Do you want yes. Go on. Would you would you recommend taking out a
106
00:08:47.910 --> 00:08:48.730
Bitcoin collateralized
107
00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:52.250
loan to pay for your, Bitcoin 2021 ticket?
108
00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:54.170
No. I would not. Okay.
109
00:08:55.190 --> 00:08:57.975
I I think As as my registered financial adviser.
110
00:08:59.235 --> 00:09:00.535
This is this is,
111
00:09:01.154 --> 00:09:03.175
I mean, not financial advice.
112
00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:10.480
I mean, I think that, you know, you should just spend Bitcoin within your means. I think people shouldn't be taking out leverage on Bitcoin. And on that topic,
113
00:09:11.195 --> 00:09:18.870
we do like to get technical in here, but let's be honest, a lot of the freaks, a lot of the listeners like talking about price. They like talking about number go up.
114
00:09:19.430 --> 00:09:26.810
If you're watching this live, you have our usual chart is being live streamed out to you. On the top is the evil empire coinbase.
115
00:09:27.190 --> 00:09:28.570
On the bottom is
116
00:09:30.625 --> 00:09:31.525
is is bisque,
117
00:09:32.145 --> 00:09:34.245
the proper no k y c,
118
00:09:34.865 --> 00:09:36.005
p to p exchange.
119
00:09:36.810 --> 00:09:44.750
So keep an eye on that as we go. But on that topic, James, in March, when everything was going crazy, you decided that you wanted to be a trader.
120
00:09:45.455 --> 00:09:51.395
Do you want to reflect on this for the freaks, and, you know, have you reformed in your ways? Do you think stacking is the way to go?
121
00:09:51.775 --> 00:10:00.060
Did should people try and time markets? You know? What what's your thoughts here? Yeah. I guess it's time for a, formalized public atonement
122
00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.100
and, and or lashing for
123
00:10:03.795 --> 00:10:04.855
for my transgressions
124
00:10:05.235 --> 00:10:06.615
earlier in 2020.
125
00:10:08.435 --> 00:10:08.935
Basically
126
00:10:09.475 --> 00:10:09.975
I
127
00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:13.830
saw what was going on, I saw the pandemic coming,
128
00:10:14.290 --> 00:10:21.665
and, you know, I guess called it in the grand scheme of things relatively early. Like like pretty much anybody else who was kind of paying attention to the
129
00:10:21.965 --> 00:10:24.305
usual alternative sources on Twitter, I guess.
130
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.100
And, you know, had some early success
131
00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:30.340
like shorting corporate debt,
132
00:10:32.640 --> 00:10:34.075
had some success,
133
00:10:34.775 --> 00:10:38.714
going long Eurodollar futures, which is basically just a way of betting
134
00:10:39.015 --> 00:10:40.055
that interest rates,
135
00:10:40.455 --> 00:10:43.035
short term are gonna drop, you know, towards 0,
136
00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:50.330
which they did. So I was kind of emboldened by that stuff to, I don't know, trade,
137
00:10:50.935 --> 00:10:53.115
trade more. And I thought that basically,
138
00:10:54.375 --> 00:10:57.755
at that stage in the game, that Bitcoin was essentially just
139
00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.580
beta on the stock market, and
140
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.100
the stock market was seemingly obviously going down.
141
00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.015
And so I thought, oh, well, you know, I'll sell some Bitcoin and then
142
00:11:09.395 --> 00:11:10.455
scoop it when it,
143
00:11:10.915 --> 00:11:15.255
you know, hits some lower level and, you know, up up my Bitcoin holdings.
144
00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:18.750
And in the meantime, I was I was kind of, like,
145
00:11:19.130 --> 00:11:21.390
diversifying into gold, which everybody
146
00:11:21.850 --> 00:11:23.775
will laugh me for and rightfully so,
147
00:11:24.895 --> 00:11:25.955
because I basically
148
00:11:27.295 --> 00:11:30.275
it was, again, you know, it's one of these, like, disgusting
149
00:11:32.150 --> 00:11:38.650
decisions where you're, like, banking on the way that other people perceive the world. And I kinda thought, okay,
150
00:11:39.705 --> 00:11:43.325
You know, the markets are entering this calamitous state, and
151
00:11:44.905 --> 00:11:47.085
people are going to be rushing towards,
152
00:11:47.560 --> 00:11:49.420
you know, a Bitcoin equivalent,
153
00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:57.515
whether they know it or not. Some people are gonna, you know, ultimately risk towards Bitcoin. But but, basically, anybody over the age of, like, 55
154
00:11:57.895 --> 00:11:59.435
just doesn't seem to understand
155
00:11:59.975 --> 00:12:00.475
Bitcoin.
156
00:12:00.775 --> 00:12:04.795
I'm sure there are people out there, but but in any case, my my gut was basically that
157
00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:13.200
older people were gonna look at gold as a kind of safe haven asset. And so I was like, okay. Well, maybe I should own some of this, and
158
00:12:14.435 --> 00:12:19.255
that that in nominal terms wasn't a mistake. I did make a return on that, but
159
00:12:19.635 --> 00:12:21.015
definitely not nearly,
160
00:12:21.395 --> 00:12:23.450
what I would have made if I just left my,
161
00:12:24.810 --> 00:12:29.870
my money in Bitcoin. Did did I just hear you price your return in US dollars?
162
00:12:32.115 --> 00:12:35.815
Yeah. That's another transgression. I guess I haven't worked all the kinks out yet, but,
163
00:12:36.355 --> 00:12:41.015
yeah. As as as as Sam was saying there, I used to write or I wrote a few issues of this
164
00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.660
this newsletter, Bearhouse, which is me just kinda talking about the markets and, like,
165
00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:50.060
you know, openly talking about how much money I was either losing or making.
166
00:12:51.505 --> 00:12:52.005
And,
167
00:12:52.465 --> 00:12:55.445
the final kind of installment of that was me
168
00:12:55.825 --> 00:13:04.220
having this come to Jesus moment where I was like, I don't believe in any of this bullshit aside from Bitcoin, so why am I screwing around?
169
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.585
And the price, I think, at that point was, like, $9,000.
170
00:13:09.125 --> 00:13:11.545
And so I had made some stupid sales
171
00:13:12.085 --> 00:13:13.225
early around $6,000.
172
00:13:13.685 --> 00:13:17.060
And so I basically just kinda like mark and called myself back into Bitcoin
173
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:22.500
both, you know, literally and spiritually because it was like, woah. What are you doing here, man?
174
00:13:23.905 --> 00:13:28.165
And I I chalk all that up honestly, and I here's here's, okay, here's, like, the big
175
00:13:28.545 --> 00:13:30.565
danger for for for Bitcoiners.
176
00:13:31.025 --> 00:13:32.405
I think a lot of us
177
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:35.360
are driven by novelty to a certain extent,
178
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:36.320
and,
179
00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:42.795
we get contrarian and we get bored. And I think that's kinda what happened to me is that I was like,
180
00:13:43.575 --> 00:13:50.279
you know, I basically, I've I've been absorbed in Bitcoin for the last, you know, 3 or 4 years professionally, personally,
181
00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:54.600
and, I think I just kinda started to fidget. And subsequently,
182
00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:56.680
you know, made some bad decisions,
183
00:13:58.005 --> 00:13:58.404
But,
184
00:13:58.964 --> 00:14:01.704
but, yeah, that was that was an experience for sure.
185
00:14:04.084 --> 00:14:04.985
Yeah. I mean,
186
00:14:05.990 --> 00:14:09.290
I remember when it was happening clear as day, I was like, oh, James.
187
00:14:10.230 --> 00:14:14.855
The the one thing I would add is You should be by the collars and sort of shake.
188
00:14:15.255 --> 00:14:28.560
I know. We were telling you, last year, but, yeah. We we honestly should've shook you. I was trolling you on Twitter, which is more effective, to be honest. Yeah. And, it was before Have Fun Staying Poor. I remember I posted a video
189
00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:29.600
of,
190
00:14:31.154 --> 00:14:34.615
a video of cooking bear fat and eating bear meat and bear fat,
191
00:14:35.154 --> 00:14:36.935
and I alluded that it was you.
192
00:14:37.394 --> 00:14:49.095
I I think a key thing that you did, which I will commend you for, is that you you took the loss and you admitted your mistake and you fucking just bought back in. And at the time, it was like the difference between 6 $1,000 and $9,000
193
00:14:49.555 --> 00:14:56.375
Bitcoin. Mhmm. And I think a lot of people would be like, oh, I missed it on the 30% swing and wouldn't have the humility to come back in.
194
00:14:57.610 --> 00:15:14.710
But but you had the humility to come back in and you look now, like, what's the difference between 6 k and 9 k is fucking negligible. Right. Right. Right. Well, I mean, I'm not a moron, and I'm a Bitcoiner for life. So, I mean, this you know, we're we're kinda it's not like I sold out my whole stash or anything. This is a sort of, like,
195
00:15:15.170 --> 00:15:20.390
marginal amount. But I think, yeah, my rhetoric was maybe stronger at the time than it than it Very provocative.
196
00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:21.205
Certainly.
197
00:15:22.645 --> 00:15:24.265
And, again, that's kind of the contrarianism
198
00:15:24.645 --> 00:15:28.025
and the, you know, and the the boredom kicking in.
199
00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:34.300
But what you really missed, right, what you missed is you didn't expect them to print as hard and as fast as they fucking did.
200
00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.820
Well, that's kind of the irony of it is that, like, in in my,
201
00:15:38.485 --> 00:15:45.385
you know, the the single piece of writing I've churned out that's that's probably gonna stand the test of time, which is Bitcoin for safety.
202
00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:53.300
I basically outlined exactly what was gonna happen and what did happen, and I didn't heed my own advice. So,
203
00:15:53.615 --> 00:15:55.555
like, the joke is on me because,
204
00:15:56.335 --> 00:15:59.375
it's it it was all in there and they printed hard. And,
205
00:16:00.175 --> 00:16:02.190
I basically just thought that the
206
00:16:02.510 --> 00:16:06.830
the transmission dynamics in the monetary system weren't going to sort of translate,
207
00:16:08.590 --> 00:16:10.345
you know, the Fed purchasing
208
00:16:11.045 --> 00:16:11.785
or purchasing
209
00:16:12.245 --> 00:16:12.905
bonds into
210
00:16:13.525 --> 00:16:30.585
a saving of the corporate debt market. But instead, what happened in actuality is the Fed opened a special purpose vehicle and they went out and started buying corporate debt hand over fist. And that's I think that's the thing that nobody really counted on, and is is almost certainly a violation of the Federal Reserve Act, but, you know, as if that whole thing.
211
00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:37.899
James, I wanted you to get into, your experience with the gold. I think,
212
00:16:38.300 --> 00:16:46.185
the parts of that you detailed I mean, first of all, hats off to, you know, detailing pretty much, you know, all your moves like this online and on your blog.
213
00:16:46.645 --> 00:16:47.945
That was really cool of you.
214
00:16:48.485 --> 00:16:51.625
But I I was almost most interested by your tweet thread
215
00:16:52.520 --> 00:16:56.540
detailing your headaches with offloading your gold when you decide to sell it.
216
00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:02.545
Yeah. Yeah. That was a really interesting experience, and it was kind of coincidental because,
217
00:17:04.445 --> 00:17:10.730
as as Bitcoin's price movement started and it was kinda it became clear to me that this year was gonna be an absolutely insane year.
218
00:17:11.269 --> 00:17:17.535
You know, I just had to dump the gold. And in the process of dumping the gold, the difficulty inherent in that
219
00:17:17.835 --> 00:17:22.895
was, like, the ultimate verification that that that is the right move because,
220
00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:27.440
so basically the way that it worked is it was, like, maybe a Wednesday,
221
00:17:27.820 --> 00:17:28.320
and
222
00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:31.679
I wanted to sell the gold. So I called up AppMex,
223
00:17:32.625 --> 00:17:33.605
spoke to some woman,
224
00:17:34.785 --> 00:17:38.625
and we, like, had to hold them. What was that? App AppMex is,
225
00:17:40.010 --> 00:17:42.110
it's it's it's they're a gold dealer.
226
00:17:42.570 --> 00:17:44.029
They're one of the bigger ones, appmex.com.
227
00:17:44.889 --> 00:17:47.470
I don't I I don't have any affiliation with them, but
228
00:17:48.535 --> 00:17:51.915
I just happen to know that they they buy gold. And so,
229
00:17:53.175 --> 00:17:57.740
I'm sure, you know, you can do that locally, but I didn't really wanna futz around with that. So,
230
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:00.780
so I called them up and,
231
00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:05.100
talked to some saleswoman, you know, we spend like 30 minutes kinda
232
00:18:05.524 --> 00:18:13.365
doing this dance over, like, well, how much gold do I have, and, like, what kind of bars are they, and, you know, like, doing some price haggling. And,
233
00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:15.630
so then we finally,
234
00:18:16.090 --> 00:18:17.230
finalize on price.
235
00:18:17.690 --> 00:18:21.305
She has me sign some paperwork, I think, with my social on it.
236
00:18:22.425 --> 00:18:24.285
Then the next day, she sends me
237
00:18:24.825 --> 00:18:30.025
okay. So this is already over, like, 16 hours. Right? If if you were selling Bitcoin, you would be
238
00:18:31.090 --> 00:18:36.950
you'd have your your wire transfer, like, processing at this point. I'm just now signing paperwork.
239
00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:38.950
So,
240
00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:39.990
basically,
241
00:18:40.725 --> 00:18:45.145
if you sell a certain amount of gold, you have to split it into separate packages,
242
00:18:45.605 --> 00:18:53.059
and you have to double box it with double labeling, and so this woman sends me 2 shipping labels, which I print out into a total of 4 labels,
243
00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:55.559
double box everything, pack it up.
244
00:18:56.179 --> 00:19:00.695
You know, I have to, like, go out and get get packaging materials and stuff, and,
245
00:19:01.075 --> 00:19:08.260
all the while, I'm kinda sketched out by, like, the prospect of, you know, physically bringing this stuff into the UPS store and
246
00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:12.440
potentially handing it over. So I get it all packaged up. I go to the UPS store.
247
00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:23.815
I hand it over to the to the to the woman there and, walk out. And at that point, it's like, okay, the gold is has just sort of entered the ether, you know. It's
248
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.840
it it's in UPS's custody, and,
249
00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:29.320
I sure hope nothing happens to it because,
250
00:19:29.780 --> 00:19:31.435
ultimately, I'm gonna be the one
251
00:19:33.435 --> 00:19:38.255
with the loss, and, it'll be on me to go appeal to UPS or whatever insurance company to actually get reimbursed for that.
252
00:19:38.750 --> 00:19:39.250
So,
253
00:19:40.190 --> 00:19:44.370
finally, the the gold winds up at AppMex. They receive the delivery,
254
00:19:45.070 --> 00:19:52.434
the next the next week. I think it takes, like, 2 days for that to happen. But then they go, like, unpack the gold and inspect it and verify it.
255
00:19:53.934 --> 00:20:06.420
And then there was some other little miscellaneous, like, hiccup where, you know, I was told there's a problem with the order, but there wasn't actually problems. So long story short, like, then and then they, you know, dispatched the wire, like, a day later. So long story short, it was, like, 7 days.
256
00:20:06.855 --> 00:20:09.274
It took me 7 days to get paid for this gold
257
00:20:09.654 --> 00:20:10.475
that I unloaded.
258
00:20:11.414 --> 00:20:15.355
And the whole time, I'm just you know, my my jaw's on the floor, but I'm like, who the hell
259
00:20:15.730 --> 00:20:19.429
is exposing themselves to an asset where, like, this is what counts for liquidity?
260
00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:23.350
Yeah. The markets there are, like,
261
00:20:24.125 --> 00:20:24.625
completely
262
00:20:25.725 --> 00:20:27.985
bonkers, really. Like Yeah.
263
00:20:28.605 --> 00:20:33.265
And then as as soon as you want gold, right, we saw this during the during the crisis,
264
00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:35.539
during the corona crisis.
265
00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:49.235
As soon as you wanted gold, every single physical dealer locked up. It was, like, impossible to buy it even if you wanted to buy it. Well, yeah. And that's I mean, that speaks to a much more fundamental problem in the gold market. And I I did write an article about this following,
266
00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:57.050
Bitcoin for safety, which is just about basically the the counterparty risk inherent in in in gold just because the settlement
267
00:20:57.429 --> 00:20:58.490
process is so
268
00:20:58.790 --> 00:20:59.610
sort of infeasible.
269
00:21:00.054 --> 00:21:09.755
And because settlement is so difficult, you have, like, this big paper gold market where there's theoretically a lot of allocated gold sitting around in some vault, but that's pretty theoretical at this point. And,
270
00:21:10.120 --> 00:21:13.020
you know, it's hard for people to actually take delivery.
271
00:21:13.399 --> 00:21:16.779
You know, in certain cases, it's sort of impossible if you're in one of these ETFs,
272
00:21:17.934 --> 00:21:21.715
And and that just I mean, that allows people to play games with the price. And so
273
00:21:22.335 --> 00:21:25.235
you you don't really know how rehypothecated
274
00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:30.230
the physical gold market is. And that I mean, you know, how can you own something where
275
00:21:30.610 --> 00:21:31.909
the whole value is predicated
276
00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:36.125
on a scarce supply when you don't really know what the supply
277
00:21:38.025 --> 00:21:43.085
is. Yeah. It's bonkers. No way to do a easy proof of reserves on a gold system.
278
00:21:43.490 --> 00:21:47.970
And, and just the paper alone makes it right for manipulation and,
279
00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:49.269
you know,
280
00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:52.929
not just, the derivatives that could easily be,
281
00:21:53.525 --> 00:21:59.625
made from it, but, you know, even just knowing if the gold is actually where they say it is. There there's,
282
00:22:00.165 --> 00:22:07.770
you know, no accountability in that regard. No. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, one thing I wanna talk about a little bit is that, like, aside
283
00:22:08.390 --> 00:22:11.850
from aside from the profitability or whatever or the quality of the trade,
284
00:22:12.475 --> 00:22:18.575
of Bitcoin, I I got to this point after a few months of focusing on on markets and focusing on trading
285
00:22:19.090 --> 00:22:20.370
to realizing that there's,
286
00:22:20.930 --> 00:22:24.390
a kind of spiritual simplicity or fidelity to
287
00:22:24.770 --> 00:22:26.390
just holding Bitcoin because
288
00:22:27.135 --> 00:22:38.770
there are there are more interesting things to do than play casino or to to trade. I mean, you know, I guess it's one thing if you're, like, an applied mathematician and you're modeling some option strategy and you're actually being sort of creative.
289
00:22:40.350 --> 00:22:50.395
But I I just got to this point where I was kind of disgusted with how I was spending my time, and I was, like, I felt it was very consumptive to sit there and just watch markets all day.
290
00:22:51.335 --> 00:22:52.650
And I found that
291
00:22:53.050 --> 00:22:56.910
when your strategy is just buy Bitcoin and hold it until
292
00:22:57.450 --> 00:22:57.950
indefinitely,
293
00:22:58.650 --> 00:22:59.150
that
294
00:22:59.610 --> 00:23:03.784
that frees you up to to do much more interesting things, like
295
00:23:04.164 --> 00:23:07.910
like write code or or go out and make art, you know, or like,
296
00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:11.450
you know, put together a back to back boiler room on on,
297
00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:12.730
Citadel dispatch,
298
00:23:13.110 --> 00:23:14.650
which I think is coming.
299
00:23:16.095 --> 00:23:26.299
Yeah. I mean, we we gotta make that happen. I mean, James, we really need to come down to Miami for the conference, and, you know, we'll just play an after party there. Give it to the people in, in person.
300
00:23:26.840 --> 00:23:27.340
Yes.
301
00:23:28.919 --> 00:23:36.605
Amen. But, yeah, we'll organize that for sure. But, yeah, I agree with your sentiments on trading. It's like it's I don't knock
302
00:23:37.145 --> 00:23:41.220
anyone who is actively doing it and making a living
303
00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:42.340
doing that,
304
00:23:42.800 --> 00:23:43.300
but
305
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.140
it's just that
306
00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:46.580
I have Bitcoin
307
00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:47.920
and my
308
00:23:49.055 --> 00:23:53.075
you know, I've been inundated enough to go with the dollar cost average strategy.
309
00:23:53.775 --> 00:23:55.235
Just I don't have to waste
310
00:23:55.779 --> 00:24:04.340
my time anymore looking at charts, looking at what's gonna go and and make a run next. Mhmm. So my strategy now is is proven, and,
311
00:24:05.455 --> 00:24:18.970
I also get to benefit by, you know, not having to put any thought into it anymore. It's just set, and now I get to forget it and and focus on, you know, my main means of, like, you know, making a living, and then that's programming. So
312
00:24:19.370 --> 00:24:19.870
Totally.
313
00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:24.835
And, you know, at the end of the day, that's that's the goal of Bitcoin. Right? Right? The goal of Bitcoin is partially
314
00:24:25.295 --> 00:24:28.195
so that, like, the plumber doesn't have to go out and become
315
00:24:28.895 --> 00:24:29.395
macroeconomist
316
00:24:29.855 --> 00:24:31.555
by night just to preserve
317
00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:36.550
his value. You know? You can just work and save and focus on
318
00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:43.995
the, you know, the interesting things in life and not, like, financial engineering in a in a half hearted way.
319
00:24:44.775 --> 00:24:58.350
Yeah. Absolutely. And and this is like, you know, people may say, whatever. You're 9 to 5. That's the rat race. It's like, no. It's like trying to hold on to the money you earn. That's the rat race in in our society right now. And I I think,
320
00:24:59.275 --> 00:25:03.215
just wanting to escape that rat race is why a lot of people,
321
00:25:03.595 --> 00:25:12.370
come to the come to our space. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna just hold on to this thread and unpack the fuck out of it because I think it's extra important, and
322
00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.415
people just it's it's weird to me, and and it's a thread that I've been
323
00:25:18.495 --> 00:25:19.555
going at recently because so yesterday, I had,
324
00:25:20.735 --> 00:25:28.930
you know, I said on the Peter McCormick podcast, which is something I've said many times that I expect Monero to trend to 0 in terms of Bitcoin long term.
325
00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:32.575
And so I had the Monero stand come at me and they told me,
326
00:25:33.294 --> 00:25:46.080
that I don't care about privacy because I said that. But if you look at a chart, it literally is trending to 0 long term in Bitcoin. And what they don't realize is I believe this for every single fucking asset on this planet.
327
00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:49.919
And and it's amazing to me that for some people,
328
00:25:50.524 --> 00:26:00.150
they so I posted the e chart last night, then I went and I posted Apple, then I posted Facebook, then I posted b n y melon because I just added Bitcoin. I just thought it was
329
00:26:00.530 --> 00:26:00.770
funny.
330
00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:05.750
And who's the other? I posted Amazon, all trending to 0. Literally, if you go to strategy.com,
331
00:26:06.210 --> 00:26:08.550
which is, Michael Sailor's website,
332
00:26:09.024 --> 00:26:10.725
ridiculous domain holder,
333
00:26:12.065 --> 00:26:15.284
literally every single s and p company in the s and p 500
334
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:20.140
has worse returns than Bitcoin. If you price the returns in Bitcoin, they're getting clobbered.
335
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:24.460
It's interesting to me how some people
336
00:26:25.655 --> 00:26:32.315
understand that concept, can can get along on that concept, but then when I tell them it's designed Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, I lose them.
337
00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:42.404
But and then other people, they're like, trend to 0 makes no sense because they can't understand the concept that something that trends to 0 doesn't mean it's gonna actually hit 0.
338
00:26:43.024 --> 00:26:52.270
But I say Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. They're like, oh, yeah. I agree. Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Well, if Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, then everything that it's priced in is gonna fucking trend to 0 long term.
339
00:26:52.650 --> 00:26:53.710
Mhmm. Mhmm.
340
00:26:54.090 --> 00:27:01.985
Does anyone in this does anyone in this room disagree with me? I already have Evan on the on the James, do you disagree with me here? Like, long term, no matter what,
341
00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:08.919
no matter what. Long term, it's designed to pump forever. It's designed to pump forever because look. Okay. So so
342
00:27:09.635 --> 00:27:16.934
Bitcoin is the perfect substrate for price. Right? Because Bitcoin is the perfect monetary asset because it's portable, it's censorship resistant,
343
00:27:17.350 --> 00:27:18.170
it's divisible,
344
00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:19.290
it's fungible.
345
00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:21.130
It has all the properties
346
00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:24.090
of sort of the perfect monetary
347
00:27:24.470 --> 00:27:24.970
good.
348
00:27:25.315 --> 00:27:31.575
And so, you know, I think it's just a natural consequence that eventually everything's gonna be priced in Bitcoin, basically.
349
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:40.180
You know, the question is how long that takes and whether there are fits and starts and delays and stuff like that. But no. Yeah. Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.
350
00:27:41.535 --> 00:27:45.395
I think, you know, sometimes it's it's it's funny because, like, I have grown
351
00:27:46.015 --> 00:27:48.755
a huge respect for some of the more, like, trolly,
352
00:27:49.850 --> 00:27:52.430
outrageous rhetoric, like, have fun staying poor
353
00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:53.390
because,
354
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:57.950
for a while, I fought it, you know, as as being sort of unsophisticated
355
00:27:58.570 --> 00:27:59.065
or
356
00:27:59.544 --> 00:28:00.044
unnuanced.
357
00:28:00.985 --> 00:28:05.245
But after a while, you know, you just realize, like, these things are our truths, and
358
00:28:06.184 --> 00:28:06.684
they
359
00:28:06.985 --> 00:28:07.725
they sometimes
360
00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:19.955
repel people who are, like, skeptical, but it's just the damn truth. I mean, yeah, Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, like, that's, you know if you sit there and think about it for a little while, that that is
361
00:28:20.335 --> 00:28:25.715
one phrasing of the conclusion that you get out. I mean, I use the word pump to be
362
00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:31.940
provocative. Right? Right. Like, really, it's it's, you know, a truly finite scarce
363
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:33.059
deflationary
364
00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:33.845
currency
365
00:28:34.245 --> 00:28:37.225
is going to increase in purchasing power indefinitely,
366
00:28:38.325 --> 00:28:44.240
but that just does not have the kind of ring to it. Right. Right. Right. No. Yeah. You're absolutely right.
367
00:28:46.380 --> 00:29:01.670
So that's awesome. Like, a like, a a second priority of the show is just getting prominent Bitcoiners to all be on the record that they think Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. So we can Check off. No. We have James now. He's the first first Bitcoin core developer on the record to agree with that that that
368
00:29:02.230 --> 00:29:07.670
statement. Yeah. I I just do what little I can to hang on to any shreds of technical credibility because I feel like,
369
00:29:08.550 --> 00:29:13.294
I feel like I I have, like, mid tier shit posting on Twitter, and so I try and,
370
00:29:14.015 --> 00:29:14.755
you know,
371
00:29:15.375 --> 00:29:18.195
maintain a semblance of credibility at least in the GitHub repos.
372
00:29:20.419 --> 00:29:22.919
So before we go on to more topics,
373
00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:24.279
that are
374
00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:26.200
James specific,
375
00:29:27.585 --> 00:29:29.365
or that are are, you know,
376
00:29:29.825 --> 00:29:37.610
things that I would really love to discuss with James. There's something that I have to discuss personally, which is Bottlepay, a company that I am advising.
377
00:29:38.630 --> 00:29:40.410
It came out today that
378
00:29:40.710 --> 00:29:42.490
they are allegedly
379
00:29:44.625 --> 00:29:46.164
flagging coin joined deposits
380
00:29:46.945 --> 00:29:49.105
and sending back the user funds,
381
00:29:49.505 --> 00:29:50.005
if,
382
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:55.100
you know, those deposits when those deposits get flagged, they send back the user's Bitcoin.
383
00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:58.245
I've, you know,
384
00:29:58.725 --> 00:30:03.305
I've I pride myself in my transparency, so, obviously, I'm here talking about it.
385
00:30:03.765 --> 00:30:11.200
I should have advised harder is what BGT team says. Yes. That is my goal. If you think I'm not continuing to hard advise,
386
00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:12.960
you'd be mistaken.
387
00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.240
There's been a lot of discussion today.
388
00:30:16.625 --> 00:30:24.225
They are supposedly going to release a public statement. You know, I was pressured them to get it out quicker. I don't even know what's going on right now because I'm streaming.
389
00:30:24.545 --> 00:30:26.325
Hopefully, they will have it out soon.
390
00:30:28.210 --> 00:30:35.670
Really, I'm curious, but I'd like to start off with both of your comments since you are unbiased here, and, we'll take it from there.
391
00:30:36.615 --> 00:30:38.794
Yeah. Sure thing. Let me kick into it.
392
00:30:40.294 --> 00:30:42.075
Yeah. I mean, it's it's
393
00:30:42.855 --> 00:30:44.235
disappointing for sure.
394
00:30:45.110 --> 00:30:55.185
You know, you never wanna see someone be denied from using a Bitcoin service just because they wanted the privacy in doing a coin join or, you know, whatever other method.
395
00:30:56.365 --> 00:31:01.585
But, you know, it's it's a tricky territory because, obviously, if bottle pay themselves,
396
00:31:02.180 --> 00:31:04.360
you know, had a say in the manner that
397
00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:06.200
they wouldn't, you know,
398
00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:11.640
the back they'll stop CoinJoin users from depositing onto their service.
399
00:31:12.085 --> 00:31:13.365
They sort of have to play the
400
00:31:14.805 --> 00:31:16.665
they gotta play the game,
401
00:31:17.765 --> 00:31:22.490
you know, in in the arena that that they're working. It's a fully KYC service. Right?
402
00:31:22.870 --> 00:31:30.684
And, you know, it's all UK only, but from what I experienced with the original product and what I've heard about the new one, it seems to be a phenomenal,
403
00:31:31.384 --> 00:31:31.884
experience.
404
00:31:33.065 --> 00:31:38.044
But, you know, there's some realities in the world that we live in if you wanna operate in a certain manner.
405
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:40.780
You just gotta play the rules of the game, unfortunately.
406
00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:48.925
Is it always gonna be like that? No. And we have a lot of work to do in ensuring that gets changed.
407
00:31:50.505 --> 00:31:52.445
But, you know, that's just not
408
00:31:52.985 --> 00:31:56.765
the rules of the game, the the laws that they're in right now.
409
00:31:58.080 --> 00:31:59.540
It's it's not how they're in.
410
00:32:01.360 --> 00:32:02.980
Yeah. I I agree with Evan.
411
00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:06.885
That's a real shame, and I'm sure that the people who started that company,
412
00:32:07.745 --> 00:32:08.885
do not like this.
413
00:32:09.345 --> 00:32:11.125
I mean, I can't speak for them, obviously.
414
00:32:11.985 --> 00:32:15.830
But I can imagine that if you start a company like Bottlepay that you'd be very happy about
415
00:32:16.610 --> 00:32:18.549
locking out CoinJoin users.
416
00:32:20.049 --> 00:32:23.190
So, you know, I guess, right, they have 2 options. They can
417
00:32:23.885 --> 00:32:26.705
presumably either stop operating, which
418
00:32:27.885 --> 00:32:29.105
hurts, you know,
419
00:32:29.645 --> 00:32:30.865
their their their customers
420
00:32:32.290 --> 00:32:33.490
in a real way,
421
00:32:34.370 --> 00:32:36.790
or they can operate with this this constraint.
422
00:32:37.490 --> 00:32:44.985
And that's a little scary because it kinda sets, you know I don't know about setting a precedent, but it certainly is a testament to this idea that,
423
00:32:45.845 --> 00:32:46.825
now, you know,
424
00:32:47.125 --> 00:32:47.945
coin joint
425
00:32:49.080 --> 00:32:51.100
coins are not as fungible
426
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:52.380
as Bitcoins.
427
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:54.460
So
428
00:32:55.080 --> 00:32:56.700
Well, I would disagree with that.
429
00:32:57.595 --> 00:32:59.135
Yeah. I yeah. I mean,
430
00:32:59.515 --> 00:33:10.110
well, like, in a literal sense, in the immediate term, if you're a bottle pay user, you know, and you've coin joined, then then it does make a difference. I think there's a lot of prospects long term for kind of,
431
00:33:11.370 --> 00:33:20.115
doing en masse obfuscation that that, you know, would result in the sort of redemption of the purchasing power of those coins on bottle pay.
432
00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:24.730
So I I don't know. It's a it's a real shame to hear about stuff like that,
433
00:33:25.030 --> 00:33:29.690
and you hope that there are some pretty obvious workarounds that people can use.
434
00:33:31.034 --> 00:33:33.755
So, I mean, a couple of things that I wanna say here.
435
00:33:34.315 --> 00:33:36.894
Appreciate both of your comments. I I cosigned
436
00:33:37.355 --> 00:33:39.294
what both of you said. Actually, I probably,
437
00:33:40.360 --> 00:33:47.260
I think you guys pussy footed a little bit too much, which is ironic because I was hoping you guys would go harder since I am, you know, actually,
438
00:33:48.265 --> 00:33:50.505
you know, advising them. But,
439
00:33:51.785 --> 00:33:58.440
I I I think first of all, number one thing I wanna state here is that every single sat I hold,
440
00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:00.120
has a coin joint history.
441
00:34:01.140 --> 00:34:02.679
I believe that,
442
00:34:03.645 --> 00:34:04.145
Bitcoin
443
00:34:04.924 --> 00:34:10.065
I I I believe that that taint does exist, but it exists for non coin joined,
444
00:34:10.770 --> 00:34:14.470
Bitcoin. So I think that the only Bitcoin that doesn't have any taint,
445
00:34:16.210 --> 00:34:21.505
it is, you know, the the only truly fungible Bitcoin is Bitcoin that has been coin joined.
446
00:34:21.805 --> 00:34:26.225
And I hold only coin joined Bitcoin. So I do stand with anyone who,
447
00:34:27.005 --> 00:34:28.625
might have concerns about,
448
00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:35.040
being able to deposit it where they wanna deposit it, send it to where they wanna send it. I'm in the same boat as you.
449
00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:41.765
Second of all, I have no intention of ever depositing those coins into a KYC service to begin with.
450
00:34:42.625 --> 00:34:49.350
I think KYC is the illicit activity. I understand that companies need to comply with regulations, owners' regulations.
451
00:34:49.970 --> 00:34:56.455
I like to see them push back on it. I think bottle pay is the type of company that will push back on it, but you have to realize they are a start up.
452
00:34:57.235 --> 00:35:04.910
They are just, you know, a very new company who just recently gotten their licenses and whatnot, and licenses in the in in the UK are a lot worse.
453
00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:08.270
So it's important to keep that in mind.
454
00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:13.935
I think that the only carve out I have for KYC services are an on ramp.
455
00:35:14.395 --> 00:35:18.815
And in that situation or or an off ramp if you're talking about exiting shitty money,
456
00:35:19.279 --> 00:35:30.695
and and and and that concern, the way I look at it is is if you have your Fiat paycheck that has, you know, your KYC Fiat paycheck and your KYC Fiat bank account, then you can use the KYC service
457
00:35:31.075 --> 00:35:31.734
to go,
458
00:35:32.355 --> 00:35:34.295
into Bitcoin and then go into
459
00:35:34.595 --> 00:35:37.895
CoinJoin after that, to try and reclaim some forward privacy.
460
00:35:38.930 --> 00:35:39.750
So I think
461
00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:44.390
in this case, it was a deposit, not a withdrawal. I think there should be a distinction there.
462
00:35:45.170 --> 00:35:53.095
I think, it's more malicious if if if flagging is happening on withdrawals, if accounts get closed based on withdrawal history.
463
00:35:54.994 --> 00:35:59.450
You know, and it's interesting enough, you know, one of the newest services, Swan,
464
00:36:00.390 --> 00:36:03.770
doesn't even allow deposits. They're withdrawal only.
465
00:36:04.434 --> 00:36:07.174
And maybe that is a cleaner way for people to handle it.
466
00:36:07.714 --> 00:36:11.335
Another thing I'd say is I do appreciate that they just returned it right away
467
00:36:11.990 --> 00:36:15.450
really promptly. They didn't close the account, which I think is a nice,
468
00:36:15.910 --> 00:36:25.365
you know, if for what it is, that that is, like, the best case scenario that you could ask for. And then last but not least, it is kind of interesting. They do accept lightning deposits.
469
00:36:25.745 --> 00:36:30.619
So it's interesting how that is gonna start factoring into these kind of things, like, whether they're, you know,
470
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:31.579
they're allegedly
471
00:36:32.680 --> 00:36:37.579
and I'm really operating on mostly public information, to be honest, is is is their their
472
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:39.259
chain analysis tool,
473
00:36:39.785 --> 00:36:41.245
their chain surveillance tool
474
00:36:41.705 --> 00:36:49.165
says something's risky and they just return the funds. But it can't do that for lightning, so it's gonna be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out. Mhmm.
475
00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:51.310
Yeah. I gotta go Sure. Guys.
476
00:36:51.690 --> 00:36:52.590
Do you think
477
00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:55.390
do you think there's any possibility
478
00:36:55.850 --> 00:36:56.670
of KYC
479
00:36:57.130 --> 00:36:59.150
as we know it right now being abolished
480
00:36:59.835 --> 00:37:00.975
before hyper Bitcoinization?
481
00:37:03.195 --> 00:37:03.695
No.
482
00:37:05.115 --> 00:37:07.615
So we have a bit of a paradox in that,
483
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.860
you know, we're not gonna hit Hyper Bitcoinization
484
00:37:13.120 --> 00:37:16.180
without services that can onboard, you know,
485
00:37:16.515 --> 00:37:18.535
100 of 1,000, millions of users
486
00:37:19.234 --> 00:37:21.095
in the form of, like, a bottle pay.
487
00:37:21.795 --> 00:37:24.535
And, in the meantime, the users that
488
00:37:24.950 --> 00:37:30.490
do use these centralized services, they're more than likely gonna be having to deal with these KYC regulations.
489
00:37:31.805 --> 00:37:32.305
So,
490
00:37:32.605 --> 00:37:37.105
you know, it's it's really, like, a tough scenario. Like, you obviously
491
00:37:37.405 --> 00:37:39.185
don't want a bottle pay,
492
00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:49.100
to be having to deal with all this stuff. Like, this news isn't good news. Right? But at the same time, you gotta understand that it's gonna be services like this
493
00:37:49.464 --> 00:37:52.765
that are gonna help us get across the finish line and bring Bitcoin
494
00:37:53.385 --> 00:37:54.925
to, you know, the masks.
495
00:37:55.545 --> 00:38:00.070
So, you know, there's some big dilemmas in in that that we're gonna have
496
00:38:00.610 --> 00:38:01.910
to come to terms with
497
00:38:02.370 --> 00:38:06.795
as this thing grows and becomes more popular and we get more pushback from
498
00:38:07.415 --> 00:38:08.635
regulators in the state.
499
00:38:09.295 --> 00:38:09.795
Mhmm.
500
00:38:10.455 --> 00:38:10.955
Mhmm.
501
00:38:11.415 --> 00:38:14.375
Yeah. Do you guys think do you guys think that, like
502
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:17.940
so I've been talking about this on on RHR a lot.
503
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.495
You know, Randy McMillan said 2 k markup on bisque right now.
504
00:38:22.895 --> 00:38:23.795
Few few
505
00:38:24.255 --> 00:38:27.475
know, but on Citadel dispatch, like, 3 weeks before
506
00:38:27.775 --> 00:38:34.010
before we hit 50k, it hit 50k on Citadel dispatch live on bisque, just because of the lack of liquidity.
507
00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:49.474
I know. That's that's the thing, man, is their order books are super, super thin. I love Bisc. I wanna support it, but goddamn, there is not a lot of volume on there. Well, dude, you gotta start somewhere. Right? You gotta start somewhere. Yeah. This is why we show it so heavily on this on this show. But,
508
00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:54.940
what was I gonna say? Oh, so one of the things I've been talking a lot about on on Tales from the Crypt
509
00:38:55.240 --> 00:38:55.740
is
510
00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:57.020
is that
511
00:38:59.345 --> 00:39:02.245
I think that there's gonna be an intermediate period
512
00:39:02.945 --> 00:39:03.445
where
513
00:39:04.385 --> 00:39:10.030
the KYC gets so bad that it essentially results in a situation where you can't withdraw, period.
514
00:39:11.450 --> 00:39:15.630
You know, like, maybe, like, a few people can withdraw, but they'll make it so fucking difficult,
515
00:39:16.555 --> 00:39:21.855
that in practice, it's like if you go through a regulated service, you just can't even really take self custody.
516
00:39:23.515 --> 00:39:36.234
Gotcha. Are you guys worried about like, do you guys see that as well? Do you see, like, a, like, a 3 year period, 5 year period, like, the growing pains period where where the yellings of the world, like, extra freak out, and they just,
517
00:39:37.255 --> 00:39:42.470
you know, they they just they just pull the plug and and basically make it so that that self custody,
518
00:39:43.170 --> 00:39:44.710
you know, is is is
519
00:39:45.089 --> 00:39:49.829
is impossible to do through a regulated service or impractical to do through a regulated service.
520
00:39:50.245 --> 00:39:53.465
I'm of a split mind on that because I think you
521
00:39:53.765 --> 00:39:57.545
absolutely have to account for that or some other, you know, 6102
522
00:39:57.925 --> 00:39:58.425
adjacent
523
00:39:59.010 --> 00:39:59.510
event.
524
00:40:00.050 --> 00:40:04.390
But the thing that kinda eases my mind a little bit there is that
525
00:40:04.850 --> 00:40:05.910
it just seems like
526
00:40:07.225 --> 00:40:10.205
for the government to kinda unilaterally do something like that,
527
00:40:10.905 --> 00:40:16.445
the mechanisms are just, I think, too complicated and the bureaucracies are are too slow.
528
00:40:17.339 --> 00:40:20.320
And, you know, Bitcoin has a lot of friends at this point in government,
529
00:40:20.859 --> 00:40:22.640
in organizations like the SEC.
530
00:40:23.420 --> 00:40:23.920
So
531
00:40:24.220 --> 00:40:25.599
I think even if
532
00:40:26.244 --> 00:40:32.185
if Yellen Treasuries are wanted to do something like that, I think there is a far cry between
533
00:40:32.645 --> 00:40:36.210
that desire and the actualization of that through
534
00:40:36.670 --> 00:40:37.810
the means of the government,
535
00:40:38.590 --> 00:40:43.635
because it is a bureaucracy and because there are parts of it that are pro Bitcoin. So,
536
00:40:44.335 --> 00:40:46.675
and because it's just such a blatant infringement
537
00:40:46.975 --> 00:40:49.075
of American freedom. So,
538
00:40:50.390 --> 00:40:57.450
on the one hand, like, I I I wanna account for the possibility there and and be ready to weather it, but on the other hand, you know
539
00:40:57.910 --> 00:40:58.410
Alternatively,
540
00:40:58.870 --> 00:40:59.370
James
541
00:40:59.775 --> 00:41:02.355
alternatively, James, last week, the SEC
542
00:41:02.895 --> 00:41:08.595
just unilaterally decided that Americans couldn't trade 15 stocks. So how do you circle that square?
543
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:13.940
Woah. Maybe this is a piece of news I haven't heard about. You mean are you talking about the GameStop?
544
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.540
It wasn't the GameStop though. There was a whole list of them.
545
00:41:17.885 --> 00:41:23.184
Well, okay. So that but but that's the more you wanna say. That wasn't the SEC as far as I understand. That was the DTCC,
546
00:41:23.565 --> 00:41:32.130
which is a a clearing firm. No. Last week. Last week was the SEC. The SEC suspended trading on 15 different stocks. Oh, really?
547
00:41:32.485 --> 00:41:39.225
I missed that. I've been completely out of the They said they have the right to do that for up to 10 days without any kind of explanation. They said
548
00:41:39.685 --> 00:41:40.985
irrational social media
549
00:41:43.170 --> 00:41:49.110
activity was happening. That's funny. Well, I mean, I guess, is there the the question in terms of my, like,
550
00:41:49.954 --> 00:41:51.895
you know, mechanical reassurance
551
00:41:52.275 --> 00:42:01.070
point, the question there is that were the was there a law on the books that the that that gave the SEC that permission explicitly, or was that just something that they sort of decided
552
00:42:01.370 --> 00:42:03.530
was gonna go? I don't know the answer to that. But,
553
00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:05.230
you know,
554
00:42:05.555 --> 00:42:09.495
if if there were some contingency in the law that allowed them to do that for, you know,
555
00:42:10.035 --> 00:42:10.535
securities,
556
00:42:11.315 --> 00:42:18.380
maybe that's one thing versus if they just kinda decided to do it, because I I think I think, you know, anything with Bitcoin,
557
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:20.700
which I guess is regulated by the CFTC
558
00:42:21.275 --> 00:42:25.535
more or less and is a commodity by the way, the the CFTC is a a much cooler
559
00:42:25.914 --> 00:42:28.815
territory by in my mind than than the SEC. But,
560
00:42:30.140 --> 00:42:35.120
but, yeah, I I it's I don't know the specifics of that, so it's hard for me to map that onto Bitcoin.
561
00:42:37.984 --> 00:42:39.525
Yeah. Evan, I know you have an opinion.
562
00:42:41.025 --> 00:42:49.559
Listen. Everything that I'm seeing coming down the pipe, it's you know, they're they're trying to put more and more limitations on this thing and and try to stifle it,
563
00:42:50.260 --> 00:42:58.425
wherever they can really. And, you know, the the politicians that are beholden to the special interest that really would,
564
00:42:59.445 --> 00:43:02.025
stand to lose a lot with the proliferation of Bitcoin,
565
00:43:02.830 --> 00:43:04.130
They're looking at,
566
00:43:04.430 --> 00:43:05.810
you know, not
567
00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:13.335
seeing that a ban outright is probably not practical. They're definitely looking at trying to throw as many regulations
568
00:43:13.795 --> 00:43:14.775
on this thing
569
00:43:15.714 --> 00:43:18.454
as possible to help stifle its growth.
570
00:43:19.635 --> 00:43:21.015
But at the same time,
571
00:43:22.340 --> 00:43:24.120
you know, these are battles
572
00:43:24.980 --> 00:43:27.000
that, you know, are in front of us.
573
00:43:27.620 --> 00:43:29.480
Their outcomes are not settled,
574
00:43:30.095 --> 00:43:39.930
and, you know, it's gonna be up to each and every one of us to try to push things in the direction we want things to go to. Listen. It's it's not gonna be easy,
575
00:43:40.470 --> 00:43:45.369
but every passing day that we hear a new senator or house of representatives
576
00:43:45.670 --> 00:43:46.170
member,
577
00:43:46.895 --> 00:43:49.714
say they like Bitcoin or even cryptocurrency
578
00:43:50.095 --> 00:43:56.850
or or hold it, every time one of these publicly traded companies say that they're adding Bitcoin to the reserves,
579
00:43:57.710 --> 00:44:02.690
things, you know, had a little more in our direction, and and we have a little bit more hope.
580
00:44:03.265 --> 00:44:04.085
So after,
581
00:44:04.465 --> 00:44:15.109
you know, seeing what's transpired this year with all the treasuries and the support we've gotten, I'm definitely much more optimistic than last year. But we all still need to be,
582
00:44:15.890 --> 00:44:17.589
you know, just prepared for
583
00:44:18.210 --> 00:44:19.589
a huge, huge fight.
584
00:44:20.050 --> 00:44:24.985
So to be so to be clear here, this is something I've been worried about for since I got into Bitcoin.
585
00:44:25.525 --> 00:44:29.145
It's one of the reasons why I always stack Sats is because
586
00:44:29.450 --> 00:44:53.920
I thought to myself, I go, if I try and time the market and I sell, maybe I can time I actually, you know, wasn't that humble. I was, like, I could totally time the market. I'm gonna sell the top and buy the bottom, but what happens if when the bottom comes, I can't get back in. Right? And this was a fear that I always had, and and and what I look at is I think it doesn't have to be an explicit law, and you see this with bottle pay. Right? Is is these companies
587
00:44:54.460 --> 00:45:07.060
are trying to limit their liability and their risk, and and and we live in this litigious society. And this is what we saw with the lockdowns. Right? Is that even before you had laws in place that said that people had to close their businesses,
588
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:30.925
those businesses couldn't get insurance coverage, and they were afraid they were gonna get sued to fucking kingdom come if their employees got sick. Yep. So you end up in this heavily litigious society, and if if there's overtures being made that people need to clamp down on self custody, a lot of exchanges and services and on ramps or exit ramps, whatever you wanna call them, are going to just cut off. They're just gonna cut off access just to protect themselves.
589
00:45:31.625 --> 00:45:33.565
But, besides that point,
590
00:45:34.185 --> 00:45:42.109
James, I got the I got the screenshot for you here. The SEC suspends trading multiple issuers based on social media and trading activity.
591
00:45:42.410 --> 00:45:56.850
Yeah. That's wild, man. I hadn't seen that. That's fucking crazy. Like, it's it's the writing's on the wall for people that these so called free markets aren't really free markets, and the only free market that's available is Bitcoin. And if you think that they they can't do this on Coinbase Pro,
592
00:45:57.550 --> 00:46:00.530
I mean, you're smoking the good shit, and I'd like to have some of that.
593
00:46:02.045 --> 00:46:04.065
Yeah. Yeah. I know. Absolutely. Absolutely.
594
00:46:04.445 --> 00:46:06.625
There's another company worth shouting out,
595
00:46:07.645 --> 00:46:08.145
CardPoints,
596
00:46:09.005 --> 00:46:09.665
which is
597
00:46:10.460 --> 00:46:12.640
basically another kind of on ramp.
598
00:46:13.180 --> 00:46:16.240
It's it's like a gift card exchange that's kinda booting up.
599
00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:20.000
The guys who run that are are really, really, really solid Bitcoiners.
600
00:46:20.525 --> 00:46:28.625
So maybe, you know, this this is great for bidirectional liquidity, but if you're looking just to buy some Bitcoin, that's another good option. But they have KYC. Right?
601
00:46:29.630 --> 00:46:32.130
Oh, I don't know about that. I didn't think so.
602
00:46:32.750 --> 00:46:38.930
So, anyway, no KYC only is just a really great resource if you're looking for a no KYC option,
603
00:46:40.925 --> 00:46:43.425
locally. I mean, at the end of the day, like, unfortunately,
604
00:46:43.805 --> 00:46:44.785
let's be honest,
605
00:46:45.725 --> 00:46:47.345
a lot of this is gonna be,
606
00:46:47.650 --> 00:46:54.150
especially in this is, like, dark in between period, a lot of it's gonna be, like, kind of, you know, like a relationship with the weed dealer.
607
00:46:54.930 --> 00:46:57.110
You know, it's gonna be something that just
608
00:46:58.275 --> 00:47:06.615
you're you're gonna have to, like, go out and seek, and it might not necessarily be that difficult, but it is definitely gonna be more difficult than downloading,
609
00:47:07.170 --> 00:47:11.270
you know, a sexy UX app on the App Store. Right? Yeah. Yep.
610
00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:14.150
Yeah. I mean,
611
00:47:14.585 --> 00:47:16.845
it's gonna be different in different jurisdictions,
612
00:47:17.865 --> 00:47:23.644
but, you know, it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility of it happen in the places we live. So,
613
00:47:24.049 --> 00:47:25.990
you know, you gotta be prepared out there.
614
00:47:26.369 --> 00:47:31.029
The I remember, like, when I first found Bitcoin, like, the first thing that I thought was,
615
00:47:32.365 --> 00:47:33.105
you know,
616
00:47:33.405 --> 00:47:34.625
was was kind of like,
617
00:47:37.005 --> 00:47:38.945
I I I don't I don't know. Like,
618
00:47:39.490 --> 00:47:47.030
the like, almost like a B cash or logic. I I saw it as, like, a utility token, and I saw this idea that you could you could send Bitcoin to,
619
00:47:47.725 --> 00:47:58.299
someone in, like, Hungary or something or someone in Turkey, and then they can just immediately go to the Bitcoin ATM and get, like, Turkish lira out or euros or whatever. Mhmm.
620
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.380
And and and it was a way to basically transfer cash across borders.
621
00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:05.099
And then, of course, what happened was all the ATMs,
622
00:48:06.745 --> 00:48:17.309
had to they they started getting all these KYC requirements if they were doing if they were gonna feed out cash. Like, sometimes they don't have hard KYC if you're buying Bitcoin, but they do on the opposite side.
623
00:48:17.690 --> 00:48:29.135
And it was funny because it was basically the education experience of why Bitcoin exists in the first place is because all of these ATMs are are run by centralized third parties. And if you have a centralized third party, they're gonna get squeezed. They're gonna be scared,
624
00:48:29.915 --> 00:48:35.630
and and get sent to jail, so so they're gonna have to comply. And the whole reason that didn't happen
625
00:48:36.170 --> 00:48:38.349
and it hasn't happened yet to this day
626
00:48:38.890 --> 00:48:44.735
is why Bitcoin has value in the first place. And it might happen the future, but the important thing is that the actual network,
627
00:48:45.515 --> 00:48:46.015
token,
628
00:48:46.955 --> 00:48:52.560
the bearer asset that we have, this digital bearer asset, doesn't have a centralized third party that can that can be squeezed,
629
00:48:53.100 --> 00:48:54.720
is is super fucking important.
630
00:48:55.420 --> 00:48:57.820
Before we move to the next topic, I just you know, I
631
00:48:59.385 --> 00:49:04.125
sometimes I have been in this space, you know, been publicly talking about Bitcoin,
632
00:49:05.465 --> 00:49:06.925
for probably too long,
633
00:49:07.510 --> 00:49:13.050
and I just assume that all the freaks are aware of CoinJoin and and my usual CoinJoin shill.
634
00:49:13.590 --> 00:49:16.570
I I I think it's important for people to realize that CoinJoin
635
00:49:17.915 --> 00:49:18.415
is
636
00:49:18.875 --> 00:49:24.895
is a Bitcoin it's just a Bitcoin send. It's just a it's a it's a Bitcoin transaction where you're sending Bitcoin
637
00:49:25.590 --> 00:49:33.290
in a in a self custody way, in a non custodial way. You're you're you're sending Bitcoin with with best practices, privacy best practices,
638
00:49:34.174 --> 00:49:42.035
being implemented at the same exact time. This is wholly different than this idea of mixing or where where you're you're sending into a custodial
639
00:49:42.710 --> 00:49:44.890
wallet and they're sending you someone else's Bitcoin.
640
00:49:45.590 --> 00:49:49.690
With with with CoinJoin, it it it the equivalent would be something like
641
00:49:50.230 --> 00:50:02.315
5 people have gold coins and you all take your gold coins, you melt down the gold coins, and you create 5 new gold coins would be like what a what a coin joint transaction would look like if if gold wasn't a shit coin.
642
00:50:03.710 --> 00:50:10.130
The I I think it's important for people to realize this distinction, this idea that that that we would inherently
643
00:50:11.105 --> 00:50:12.565
assume criminal activity
644
00:50:13.025 --> 00:50:16.085
based on using Bitcoin in a in a way that
645
00:50:16.945 --> 00:50:18.805
that uses privacy best practices,
646
00:50:20.170 --> 00:50:24.350
is is kind of crazy to me, and I think it needs to be pushed back on hard.
647
00:50:24.970 --> 00:50:29.045
This idea, like, don't use, like, terms like washing and laundering
648
00:50:29.345 --> 00:50:33.045
and Right. These are terms used by the the oppressor to to
649
00:50:33.585 --> 00:50:35.285
insinuate criminal activity.
650
00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:44.390
Privacy itself is not a crime. There's nothing illegal about privacy in America. This idea that that that we're just going to
651
00:50:45.905 --> 00:50:55.510
insinuate that people that are seeking privacy or criminal elements is a ridiculous concept. It's a concept that needs to be pushed back against. It's a concept that's against freedom. And this idea
652
00:50:56.130 --> 00:51:00.150
that just basic financial privacy, wanting to have basic financial privacy,
653
00:51:01.250 --> 00:51:05.825
should not be something that the average person wants that, like, you need to be like James Bond
654
00:51:06.204 --> 00:51:14.050
or fucking Jason Bourne, and and you have to, like, delete your life and be like a crazy, like, secret agent man to have any kind of basic privacy
655
00:51:14.510 --> 00:51:17.490
is, like, an absolute cuck mentality. It's a state mentality,
656
00:51:18.085 --> 00:51:29.930
and it's absolutely ridiculous. Like, we shouldn't have to you shouldn't have to explain to someone why you don't want your employer to know what you bought at the bodega, and you don't want the bodega owner to know how much your employer paid you.
657
00:51:31.829 --> 00:51:32.970
Yep. Yeah. Absolutely.
658
00:51:35.065 --> 00:51:39.085
And what's a bodega? Do people outside of New York even know what a bodega is?
659
00:51:40.345 --> 00:51:43.645
Well, we know they have cats. That's that's all we really know about bodegas.
660
00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:51.695
But, no, that's a really that's a really fundamental point, Matt. I mean, I think few people, you know, maybe understand this idea that
661
00:51:52.015 --> 00:52:01.475
if let's say that you make some Bitcoin transaction with, like, a dinky little convenience store. Well, if that Bitcoin you gave them isn't properly anonymized,
662
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:08.819
then they can walk back and basic and potentially see your net worth, your whole stash. And
663
00:52:09.225 --> 00:52:14.445
if they figure that information out, then what's to say that they won't track you down and rock you later on? So,
664
00:52:15.625 --> 00:52:17.090
there are many, many, many,
665
00:52:17.570 --> 00:52:19.270
very legitimate use cases
666
00:52:19.730 --> 00:52:22.390
for frequently anonymizing your Bitcoin. So,
667
00:52:23.490 --> 00:52:24.790
yeah, thanks for the helpful
668
00:52:25.135 --> 00:52:27.475
subtitle there. Bodegas are small convenience stores.
669
00:52:29.215 --> 00:52:30.355
Love to see it.
670
00:52:30.815 --> 00:52:35.210
I wanted to say, like, so we're all former New Yorkers. Before we get to the next topic,
671
00:52:36.630 --> 00:52:37.610
like, bodegas,
672
00:52:38.150 --> 00:52:39.210
man, I
673
00:52:39.535 --> 00:52:44.115
I am so bullish on bodegas. Like, the whole economy got completely destroyed.
674
00:52:45.055 --> 00:52:45.795
The bodega
675
00:52:46.335 --> 00:52:46.835
economy
676
00:52:47.295 --> 00:52:48.275
fucking flourished.
677
00:52:48.620 --> 00:52:58.160
They had the best business they ever had. They had their their their like, their you couldn't find toilet paper in the big grocery stores. All the bodegas had toilet paper. They all had the essentials.
678
00:52:58.465 --> 00:53:04.645
They had their cat was standing by, ready to make sure that the mice didn't have corona. Like, they were ready to fucking go.
679
00:53:05.105 --> 00:53:08.405
The bodegas are the most resilient thing about New York City.
680
00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:13.990
Yeah. I mean, that's well, it it goes into, like, you know, how they got there. I mean,
681
00:53:14.849 --> 00:53:17.750
the people who usually work at the bodegas
682
00:53:18.075 --> 00:53:19.055
are, you
683
00:53:19.355 --> 00:53:22.734
know, usually the owners, typically, and, you know, they're typically,
684
00:53:23.275 --> 00:53:24.415
immigrants and
685
00:53:24.954 --> 00:53:27.615
probably some of the hardest working people in the city.
686
00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:31.819
So, you know, a lot of that goes hand in hand.
687
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:34.539
You know, bodegas are kind of decentralization
688
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:38.484
incarnate in that, you know, they're all obviously shittier than
689
00:53:38.785 --> 00:53:40.005
Whole Foods, but
690
00:53:40.545 --> 00:53:42.325
they're a hell of a lot more resilient
691
00:53:42.625 --> 00:53:43.765
and, you know,
692
00:53:44.430 --> 00:53:46.369
so that's a big thing. Jane Jacobs,
693
00:53:46.829 --> 00:53:50.690
was this woman, famous urban planner, wrote a book called The Death and Life of
694
00:53:51.230 --> 00:53:58.974
Great American Cities, and she's got like a whole chapter in there about the the importance of a bodega and how it serves as kind of the backbone
695
00:53:59.275 --> 00:54:02.560
to many neighborhoods because it's sort of, it's almost like,
696
00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:08.960
you know, back in the days of old in New York, you would have the guy who ran the bodega, you know, potentially
697
00:54:09.820 --> 00:54:20.480
take delivery of your packages if you were out or hold keys for people. And so it was kind of this little opt in source of trust that that could kinda tie together,
698
00:54:22.540 --> 00:54:23.040
neighborhoods.
699
00:54:23.500 --> 00:54:25.680
By the way, shout out to Raynard, the fox,
700
00:54:26.140 --> 00:54:27.599
their, missy buddy.
701
00:54:29.055 --> 00:54:32.275
And, yeah, New York is dead long with New York for sure.
702
00:54:34.255 --> 00:54:36.300
Raynard calling you out because you said,
703
00:54:36.700 --> 00:54:37.660
bodegas are,
704
00:54:39.020 --> 00:54:46.160
are worse than Whole Foods. Yeah. I would debate that. I'm a bougie sellout. I like I like my Whole Foods. I'll defend them to the death.
705
00:54:46.894 --> 00:54:48.035
I'll pay the premium.
706
00:54:48.894 --> 00:54:51.954
Indentured servitude to Jeff Mackey for
707
00:54:52.335 --> 00:54:53.394
good produce selection.
708
00:54:53.840 --> 00:55:00.980
Well, he's getting fucking killed if you price his stock in Bitcoin, so he should try and figure out how to turn that company around. I'm I'm kind of worried for him.
709
00:55:01.295 --> 00:55:05.875
He would be the guy to do it too. He's kind of a classic libertarian, if I remember correctly. So,
710
00:55:06.495 --> 00:55:08.275
he should definitely consider that.
711
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:12.740
Someone said today, I think it was Justin Moon, don't you dare call me a fucking libertarian.
712
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:18.305
Yeah. I think that's bullshit. I mean, I think you need, and I love Justin.
713
00:55:19.025 --> 00:55:20.005
I think you need
714
00:55:20.305 --> 00:55:27.079
look, like labels exist for a reason, they're a convenience. If I say libertarian to someone, they at least have like a half
715
00:55:27.460 --> 00:55:28.920
hope of knowing directionally
716
00:55:29.299 --> 00:55:30.520
kinda where I stand.
717
00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:36.565
You know, I I don't I don't beef on that term at all. I think it's directionally accurate.
718
00:55:37.984 --> 00:55:40.884
Yeah. I mean, relatively. I I bet, like, Justin's
719
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:45.060
definitions of it I mean, things are always shifting. Right? But
720
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:50.180
it seems to me, like, more of, like, a capital l versus lowercase l libertarian situation
721
00:55:50.715 --> 00:55:51.915
where he's from
722
00:55:52.875 --> 00:55:55.855
used the lowercase. He used the lowercase, though.
723
00:55:57.890 --> 00:56:02.150
Okay. That's that may be true, but I think it's more so like a response to
724
00:56:02.690 --> 00:56:05.510
the direction the party was trying to pander
725
00:56:06.494 --> 00:56:13.475
towards a lot of, people on the left as far as, you know, certain issues go and trying to distance themselves
726
00:56:14.270 --> 00:56:26.955
from a lot of the Republican ideology. Well, yeah. I mean, they're just they're just sort of blue pill, and I think a lot of them in good faith try these tactics to kinda lure in people who are more moderate, maybe even more left.
727
00:56:27.255 --> 00:56:32.380
And I don't fault them for that. I mean, you know, hey, like, my confidence is still kind of low,
728
00:56:33.319 --> 00:56:38.770
in general, and so if that's the tax somebody wants to take, you know, if they're if they're pro freedom, then,
729
00:56:39.625 --> 00:57:02.835
go for it. I mean, do do I think it's more effective to kind of participate in Bitcoin and evangelize that? Yeah. Do I think that there are mutually exclusive things? Like, not, know, so we can have a little bit of that. I mean, I think it's important to be provocative on Twitter. Like, if you're not being provocative on Twitter Yeah. That's true. Should probably do Matt, Matt, aren't aren't you afraid that people are just, like, you know, in certain cases, gonna write you off if you're too brash?
730
00:57:03.375 --> 00:57:11.700
I think I think that's the point of fuck you money, you know. Like, lowercase Odell was a little bit worried about people writing me off, and I'm past that point, and I'm just provocative.
731
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:17.265
Look, like, I am 105,000, a 1000000 percent with you for
732
00:57:17.724 --> 00:57:25.184
a lot of the people who are like, a lot of the financial punditry on Twitter. Yes. These people deserve to be relentlessly mocked,
733
00:57:25.589 --> 00:57:29.930
for dismissing Bitcoin at this point if they don't have, like, a shred of uncertainty
734
00:57:30.230 --> 00:57:31.210
in their understanding.
735
00:57:31.750 --> 00:57:33.210
But I think, you know, like,
736
00:57:33.589 --> 00:57:34.650
the general public,
737
00:57:35.035 --> 00:57:37.135
maybe I still have a little bit sympathy
738
00:57:37.595 --> 00:57:38.095
for.
739
00:57:39.035 --> 00:57:44.015
Yeah. I mean, there's a compromise. Like, people are calling me mix caps Odell now. Like, I I like, I respond
740
00:57:44.410 --> 00:57:46.349
I I respond non provocatively
741
00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:53.069
in lowercase to people that I think are actually asking questions, and I provide them resources to go and and learn more.
742
00:57:53.665 --> 00:57:58.325
Like, there's no one size fits all approach, but, I mean, the blue check should be dealt with accordingly.
743
00:57:58.785 --> 00:58:15.085
Absolutely. And and nobody can debate that you are extremely caring. You take care of the the nascent pre pointers. You know? I mean, like, no nobody can debate that. And I yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think I think shitposting is great at this point. But Shitposting is is fucking awesome. It's it's it's underappreciated,
744
00:58:15.385 --> 00:58:19.964
and and let's be clear here. The richest man in the world figured it out. He's he's enjoying himself.
745
00:58:20.420 --> 00:58:22.920
And I I think it's kind of cool that we live in the timeline
746
00:58:23.220 --> 00:58:23.720
where,
747
00:58:24.099 --> 00:58:33.075
where, like, he just doesn't even have a PR guy anymore. Like, Vanity Fair is, like, reaching out to Musk, and he's just like he's like, fuck you. Say hi to your puppet masters. And it's just like
748
00:58:33.615 --> 00:58:35.315
But, you know, it it it all
749
00:58:35.615 --> 00:58:50.755
it is a little bit it's it's a total reflection of our times in that it's a little bit cynical and a little bit destructive that, like, you know, sort of the the person who should be by the numbers, the most productive person in the world is basically, like, representing themselves with shitposts
750
00:58:51.455 --> 00:59:00.170
and it's like the sad it's like this is what money has become, this is what society has become. This is this is fiat discourse, you know. I mean, like,
751
00:59:01.030 --> 00:59:13.934
I miss you know, I'm a message board maximalist. I think, like, that was that was the superior form of communication. I think there's there's there's 2 types. There the like, you should be 2 types of people. Okay? You should either be the gentleman
752
00:59:14.830 --> 00:59:16.690
who never is in the newspaper,
753
00:59:17.150 --> 00:59:32.950
you know, and is is is is super successful and just and your your name is never in the newspaper. No one knows who you are, no one knows your opinions, no one knows anything, alternatively, if you are a public figure, you should just embrace the shitpost and have a fucking good time.
754
00:59:34.869 --> 00:59:36.630
Yeah. Maybe there's something to that.
755
00:59:36.950 --> 00:59:45.555
I I just wish there were more people out there who were firm in their beliefs and took actual stands, but, you know, I mean, had had a little bit more
756
00:59:45.855 --> 00:59:47.474
of a genuine, articulate,
757
00:59:47.775 --> 00:59:51.875
kinda fleshed out approach. But we we certainly can't expect that from,
758
00:59:52.490 --> 00:59:58.490
the leaders of today's markets. Okay. I agree with that. Okay. Let's take you back to Bitcoin. People the freaks are getting a little bit,
759
00:59:59.289 --> 01:00:00.430
Yeah. Sorry, freaks.
760
01:00:00.745 --> 01:00:03.305
No. It's my fault. They're getting a little impatient with us.
761
01:00:04.265 --> 01:00:11.780
First off, Matthew Miller, yes, feel free to put any questions in the chat you want. We will always we will try our best to get to every question that we see here.
762
01:00:12.080 --> 01:00:18.339
Don't be shy. Just keep throwing questions in there. If we don't bring it up, it it's I probably noticed it, and we will get to it in the future.
763
01:00:19.335 --> 01:00:22.795
Big thing, Taproot activation. Everyone wants to talk about it this week.
764
01:00:23.255 --> 01:00:25.995
I think we have plenty of time to talk about it, to be quite honest,
765
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:30.820
but, I think it's very important to just keep on discussing it.
766
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:35.540
We have this argument between lot equals false and lot equals true.
767
01:00:36.175 --> 01:00:37.955
This idea is lot equals true,
768
01:00:38.735 --> 01:00:39.795
basically signifies
769
01:00:40.494 --> 01:00:45.155
that that that node that is that has this lot lot equals true flag,
770
01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:48.780
will activate Taproot at a given date in the future.
771
01:00:49.160 --> 01:00:50.300
Lottie equals false,
772
01:00:50.600 --> 01:01:02.760
says that, you know, that I'm running the Tap with client. I would like to activate it, but I am not going to could, you know, forcibly do it in the future. I will go with whichever way the network goes. There's 2 arguments
773
01:01:03.380 --> 01:01:05.240
being had similar simultaneously.
774
01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:09.560
What does core ship with as the default? What will you run individually?
775
01:01:12.585 --> 01:01:15.325
So, you know, James, you're a core dev.
776
01:01:16.425 --> 01:01:18.765
Let's start with you. Well, how do you feel here?
777
01:01:19.670 --> 01:01:26.970
Alright. Let me just preface this by saying that I don't have much to say. I'm I am not the guy that you want thinking about consensus parameters.
778
01:01:27.325 --> 01:01:31.265
I'm maybe barely the guy that you want doing, like, the plumbing on,
779
01:01:31.645 --> 01:01:33.585
you know, the coins cache that has,
780
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:44.924
that that maintains consensus. So I'm a look. I'm a carpenter. I'm not, there there are big brain people who think about this stuff, like Anthony Towns and Suhas Stathour.
781
01:01:45.625 --> 01:01:46.765
It is not me.
782
01:01:48.025 --> 01:01:50.204
That said, my perspective is, look,
783
01:01:50.810 --> 01:01:51.950
lie equals false
784
01:01:53.930 --> 01:01:58.670
is a less presumptive approach because it allows for this idea that
785
01:01:59.205 --> 01:02:01.385
if we start the activation process
786
01:02:01.685 --> 01:02:03.945
and for whatever reason at some point,
787
01:02:04.805 --> 01:02:10.040
during the year, we discover that there is a problem with Taproot, you know, whether that's like a technical implementation
788
01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:11.000
issue
789
01:02:11.380 --> 01:02:12.680
or something in the cryptography.
790
01:02:13.380 --> 01:02:15.560
It it provides us a way of deescalating,
791
01:02:16.355 --> 01:02:16.855
whereas,
792
01:02:17.155 --> 01:02:18.775
lot equals true is
793
01:02:19.155 --> 01:02:20.615
a much kinda
794
01:02:21.395 --> 01:02:27.460
stronger assumption that, like, yeah, this is absolutely the perfect thing. We know it's right. And I would challenge anybody
795
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:31.380
who is, like, really strongly advocating for lot equals true.
796
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:39.065
You know, have you audited Taproot? Like, do you understand that code? Do you do you have do you really have confidence that it's the right thing? Because
797
01:02:39.525 --> 01:02:41.145
I think a lot of core devs
798
01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:45.640
have looked at the code and think we understand it, but,
799
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:47.579
it's, you know,
800
01:02:48.520 --> 01:02:51.660
why why do you wanna put yourself in a position where
801
01:02:52.015 --> 01:02:52.835
you could potentially
802
01:02:53.615 --> 01:02:54.835
discover some new information
803
01:02:55.615 --> 01:02:58.515
down the line and then not be able to act on it? So
804
01:03:00.540 --> 01:03:06.780
I I don't I'm not that qualified to talk about it, but I guess I'm a lot equals false guy because I just think
805
01:03:08.025 --> 01:03:09.805
Wait. Are you lot equals false
806
01:03:10.345 --> 01:03:13.005
for yourself or for core or for both?
807
01:03:14.185 --> 01:03:14.925
For both.
808
01:03:16.030 --> 01:03:16.930
For both because
809
01:03:17.470 --> 01:03:21.650
I think look. If it if we get if we get into a situation like with SegWit
810
01:03:22.190 --> 01:03:23.570
where, you know,
811
01:03:24.424 --> 01:03:27.085
we have to start getting adversarial, then
812
01:03:27.464 --> 01:03:29.484
we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
813
01:03:30.664 --> 01:03:35.640
But, otherwise, I think leaving the door open for the consensus process to just work, leaving the door open
814
01:03:36.100 --> 01:03:39.000
for the possibility of some unforeseen
815
01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:39.960
circumstance,
816
01:03:41.380 --> 01:03:48.215
you know, I I think that sounds pretty wise to me. And, frankly, I mean, I think everybody should go out and read the medium post that Suhas
817
01:03:48.675 --> 01:03:55.369
Dattoor put out. He was Suhas is one of the the founders of Chaincode. He was my coworker for a long time. He's
818
01:03:55.910 --> 01:03:56.410
absolutely
819
01:03:56.950 --> 01:03:59.210
possibly the smartest person that I've ever met,
820
01:04:00.335 --> 01:04:00.835
and
821
01:04:02.015 --> 01:04:07.155
he makes some makes some good points. He's he played a huge role in in Segwit and Segwit's activation. So,
822
01:04:07.850 --> 01:04:10.910
go ahead and read his Medium post, which, you know,
823
01:04:11.530 --> 01:04:13.870
I I I think Where can we find that?
824
01:04:16.005 --> 01:04:22.345
Should I shoot you a link a link or something? Yeah. Shoot me a link in the private chat. I'll put it up for everyone else. In the meantime, Evan, respond.
825
01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:27.140
Yeah. I mean, this is a crazy topic with a whole bunch of nuance.
826
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:33.065
It has been, you know, excellent to see the discourse going on on
827
01:04:34.325 --> 01:04:39.305
IRC, especially on Twitter, on people's blog posts, on the Bitcoin dev mailing list.
828
01:04:40.244 --> 01:04:42.750
I really like Luke Dash his
829
01:04:43.210 --> 01:04:46.110
post on the mailing list this week. I thought that was,
830
01:04:46.650 --> 01:04:48.350
very interesting to get his
831
01:04:48.890 --> 01:04:49.390
perspective
832
01:04:49.690 --> 01:04:51.310
fully fleshed out like that.
833
01:04:51.895 --> 01:04:54.395
As I stand right now, I'm still leaning,
834
01:04:55.095 --> 01:04:55.994
Watt Vault.
835
01:04:56.454 --> 01:04:57.515
I probably
836
01:04:57.815 --> 01:05:00.714
would say that I would like to see Corship that way.
837
01:05:01.859 --> 01:05:05.799
Whether I want it to be a configurable option in your bitcoin.com
838
01:05:07.539 --> 01:05:10.520
file, I'm still sort of up in the air about that.
839
01:05:12.155 --> 01:05:14.734
But, yeah, I just like hearing everyone's arguments.
840
01:05:15.355 --> 01:05:16.335
I haven't definitively,
841
01:05:16.875 --> 01:05:17.535
you know,
842
01:05:19.180 --> 01:05:21.440
decide how I'm gonna signal, but I'm definitely
843
01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:29.615
leaning for sure in the left the the false camp. I sort of understand the true argument in that, you know, the minors have,
844
01:05:31.194 --> 01:05:38.000
already indicated that they're gonna activate it themselves, that they don't have to really. So it's going to have.
845
01:05:39.580 --> 01:05:41.120
But at the same time, you know,
846
01:05:42.185 --> 01:05:46.605
the information we have in front of us could change, and, you know, it's probably best to stay flexible.
847
01:05:47.305 --> 01:05:48.045
So I
848
01:05:48.585 --> 01:05:56.330
but, yeah, the there's these ideas of, like, being sort of, let's say, for lack of a better word, like, equitable and allowing everyone to get their stay in,
849
01:05:56.950 --> 01:05:58.170
sort of goes at
850
01:05:58.705 --> 01:06:00.005
sort of sort of at odds
851
01:06:00.305 --> 01:06:05.525
with the idea of, like, going down a script path and having, like, a clean activation in some way.
852
01:06:06.180 --> 01:06:06.680
So
853
01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:09.400
I I have since discovered,
854
01:06:10.020 --> 01:06:12.360
I I mean, I just discovered that Medium,
855
01:06:13.194 --> 01:06:15.775
breaks links if you do it all caps. So
856
01:06:16.075 --> 01:06:25.010
I had to I had to repost it as a non all caps version, and also I've discovered that YouTube I discovered this the other day with my Mooch interview that YouTube also,
857
01:06:25.710 --> 01:06:30.530
the link breaks if you go all caps. So shame on both of you as services, Medium, and YouTube.
858
01:06:31.525 --> 01:06:39.465
That's gonna make it look. Your your conversation with the mood. I love that guy, man. He is, he's just It's pretty unreal. Right? Yeah.
859
01:06:39.970 --> 01:06:51.205
Okay. Well, I will go back to that. We should have a conversation about that. I would love to have a conversation about that while we have you. But in the meantime, I we knew we we need to talk about Taproot first. You guys are both being little bitches. Okay?
860
01:06:53.585 --> 01:07:02.220
I I I think first off, I think it's important that core ships with lot equals false. I I don't think that we should expect core developers
861
01:07:03.855 --> 01:07:10.835
to, you know, ship software with any kind of meaningful change. Mhmm. This is like a key tenant to Bitcoin.
862
01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:22.635
As as a key tenant to Bitcoin, this idea that you you if if we have auto updates, then the person who issues the auto update is a central point of failure. That person can submit
863
01:07:22.935 --> 01:07:31.329
a malicious update. Right? They can submit an update that adds k y c. I'm being provocative. Or they they could submit an update that increases the 21,000,000 cap. Oh, god forbid.
864
01:07:32.589 --> 01:07:33.089
So
865
01:07:33.470 --> 01:07:37.375
so we we don't want auto updates, and we don't want updates that
866
01:07:38.175 --> 01:07:48.250
that auto add a change. Even if it's in the future, I I I that I guess that's better than an auto update, you know, like, an update that's, like, says over 6 months, the update will change, but still,
867
01:07:48.630 --> 01:07:50.650
the default should always be no change.
868
01:07:51.030 --> 01:07:54.090
No significant change. No, you know, major change.
869
01:07:54.815 --> 01:07:57.634
So I agree that lot equals false, but I think
870
01:07:58.095 --> 01:08:06.880
what we need is we need basically the threat of Bitcoiners that are potentially going lot equal true. Right? Mhmm. So I I think I think for myself,
871
01:08:07.500 --> 01:08:11.600
like, I will probably you know, my node will probably be lot equals true.
872
01:08:12.805 --> 01:08:16.025
Why is it clear here? How how certain are you in the change set?
873
01:08:16.804 --> 01:08:24.010
Well, see, here's the thing, James. Like, I haven't I I can't I can't verify for myself that the Taproot code is good.
874
01:08:24.870 --> 01:08:30.330
But I, like, I can I can check that you guys like, I there there's been
875
01:08:31.804 --> 01:08:35.425
an amazing amount of due diligence on this fucking,
876
01:08:36.525 --> 01:08:37.105
you know,
877
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:41.060
addition to Bitcoin? Agree. There's been an insane amount,
878
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:47.380
and at at some point, you know, and it, like, kinda comes down with the corona stuff. Like, at some point,
879
01:08:47.945 --> 01:08:55.244
like, there will always be risk. Like, there'll always be risk, and it's important to the miners know that there's, like, this transinate transgenic
880
01:08:56.105 --> 01:09:03.070
minority that might be activating the shit regardless, and you need to be timely about it. But I still think that,
881
01:09:03.930 --> 01:09:04.430
officially,
882
01:09:05.355 --> 01:09:10.255
we should let the miners, like, approve the change. But in the back of their mind, they should always be thinking,
883
01:09:10.954 --> 01:09:20.630
you know, like, oh, these dick wads are fucking gonna go lot equal true, and we gotta be concerned about that. Right? Like, it's it's important for that. And as a public Bitcoiner, as someone
884
01:09:21.094 --> 01:09:22.875
who honest like, I I broadcast
885
01:09:23.494 --> 01:09:24.875
7 hours a week.
886
01:09:25.255 --> 01:09:36.110
Like, it's important that that they realize that this guy is is is one of those one of those people. Right. Right. But I think it's and I hey. Look. 100% agree with that sentiment.
887
01:09:36.965 --> 01:09:37.945
I think it's important
888
01:09:38.405 --> 01:09:42.184
there's there's a bigger point that's important to emphasize, which is
889
01:09:42.485 --> 01:09:45.465
just because I'm signaling lot equals false today
890
01:09:45.860 --> 01:09:48.600
does not mean I will not signal lot equals true tomorrow.
891
01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:54.440
And I think that's because I just because I signal lot equals true doesn't even mean I'm running Taproot.
892
01:09:54.915 --> 01:09:55.415
Right.
893
01:09:55.795 --> 01:10:08.880
Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. So there's that messy aspect of it as well. You know? But I I think, look, the reality is, I mean, this whole the whole lot equals whatever discussion tires me out, because I think in reality,
894
01:10:09.580 --> 01:10:11.040
we've basically purged,
895
01:10:11.500 --> 01:10:12.400
you know, like,
896
01:10:12.965 --> 01:10:14.745
everybody who bounced
897
01:10:15.364 --> 01:10:19.785
who is gonna bounce, bounced back, you know, in in segwit times. And so
898
01:10:20.485 --> 01:10:21.625
this time around,
899
01:10:22.140 --> 01:10:25.120
I really I will really be surprised if we have,
900
01:10:26.060 --> 01:10:30.239
any contention over the I I think I think this is a non contentious
901
01:10:30.605 --> 01:10:34.765
change, but I think it's important that we set up we have to we have to set
902
01:10:35.645 --> 01:10:41.210
I don't want to argue about activation method every time we have to activate something. What I want to do is
903
01:10:41.510 --> 01:10:43.930
I wanna have a clear activation path,
904
01:10:44.310 --> 01:10:46.730
and I like this idea that we have a single
905
01:10:47.430 --> 01:10:49.210
we have we have a single variable.
906
01:10:49.815 --> 01:10:59.110
You're either you're either pushing it or you're you're going along with the the the group or you're doing neither. So you have you have 3 choices. You don't upgrade,
907
01:10:59.570 --> 01:11:03.429
your lot equals false, or your lot equals true. I like this as a concept
908
01:11:03.730 --> 01:11:05.590
for all future soft forks.
909
01:11:06.035 --> 01:11:09.095
And I think it's important that we set up this this
910
01:11:09.555 --> 01:11:10.055
process
911
01:11:10.595 --> 01:11:18.420
so that in any future soft fork, we don't have to fucking go through how is the activation method gonna happen. We could just go through,
912
01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:25.165
are you not updating? Are you lot false? Are you lot true? And we can just proceed from that point of view.
913
01:11:25.705 --> 01:11:26.205
Mhmm.
914
01:11:26.744 --> 01:11:31.485
Does that make sense? Does it does it like, does is that is that a valid
915
01:11:32.390 --> 01:11:33.050
thought process?
916
01:11:33.510 --> 01:11:38.250
Well, and to be clear for everybody listening, like, lot equals false does not mean you don't want Taproot.
917
01:11:38.550 --> 01:11:41.915
It just means you don't want a mandatory lock
918
01:11:42.535 --> 01:11:51.300
in after a certain time threshold if the the required threshold of miners isn't signaling. Live false means you're ready for tap root, but you're not gonna force shit.
919
01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:54.179
Right? Right. Yeah. It's like difference really between,
920
01:11:54.800 --> 01:12:01.685
miner activated software and a user activated software. Whereas l o t true is the flag day event that
921
01:12:02.385 --> 01:12:03.365
does UASF
922
01:12:03.745 --> 01:12:04.485
part 2.
923
01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:08.300
And, really, it comes down to whether you thought that
924
01:12:08.840 --> 01:12:11.179
the user activated soft fork in 2017
925
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:14.699
should be treated as a gold standard for upgrades.
926
01:12:15.625 --> 01:12:17.565
And, you know, as someone who
927
01:12:17.865 --> 01:12:23.165
is leaning towards LOT equals false and probably gonna signal that way, like, I I don't think it was. I I think,
928
01:12:23.610 --> 01:12:29.370
there were a lot of things that were done in a rush manner because of the circumstances. I think a lot of things can
929
01:12:30.090 --> 01:12:31.070
could have been done,
930
01:12:31.370 --> 01:12:32.350
much more cleanly.
931
01:12:32.775 --> 01:12:39.995
And, you know, we also need to consider that that was a contentious upgrade that led us to, you know, a plethora of forks.
932
01:12:40.535 --> 01:12:41.035
So,
933
01:12:42.150 --> 01:12:47.130
you know, it it it's it's crazy in that, you know, a lot of people still have the PTSD
934
01:12:47.430 --> 01:12:47.930
from
935
01:12:48.685 --> 01:12:50.385
the last upgrade in in 2017,
936
01:12:51.325 --> 01:12:56.145
and, you know, that's why people are a little bit on edge. But, you know, generally speaking,
937
01:12:56.590 --> 01:12:58.769
we should be a bit more relaxed. And,
938
01:12:59.150 --> 01:12:59.809
you know,
939
01:13:00.590 --> 01:13:05.725
let let them let the miners take the first step. And if they don't, we're not really,
940
01:13:06.825 --> 01:13:10.765
putting ourselves into a corner. We always have the option of turning LOD,
941
01:13:11.940 --> 01:13:15.800
a trip. No. Okay. So so this is where where I, like
942
01:13:16.580 --> 01:13:17.960
so I fall in the middle
943
01:13:18.395 --> 01:13:23.695
because I I don't think, like, off the bat we go, you know, I don't think this idea that we should just
944
01:13:24.554 --> 01:13:28.880
I I I think it's important that Bitcoin development is always conservative.
945
01:13:29.500 --> 01:13:30.000
Right?
946
01:13:30.460 --> 01:13:31.920
And I think that
947
01:13:32.460 --> 01:13:33.200
we need
948
01:13:33.955 --> 01:13:34.455
to
949
01:13:35.155 --> 01:13:35.655
prioritize
950
01:13:36.035 --> 01:13:42.535
no change over change in every fucking situation. This is a feature, not a bug. It's hard to change
951
01:13:42.950 --> 01:13:43.690
by default.
952
01:13:45.430 --> 01:13:47.770
I I I think it's important to realize
953
01:13:48.870 --> 01:13:50.330
at the same time though,
954
01:13:51.935 --> 01:13:59.715
so so so so with that being said, I'm not I don't think we should railroad any kind of change. And and and and, you know,
955
01:14:00.250 --> 01:14:05.550
Marty's a brother to me. The freaks have heard me week after week for the last 2 years,
956
01:14:06.250 --> 01:14:12.474
or more than 2 years with Marty. And Marty has this tendency sometimes. He's like, let's just fucking railroad this thing.
957
01:14:13.494 --> 01:14:20.600
Let's just fucking make it happen. And you have to be careful about that because, you know, we could railroad something that's bad. Like, how do we know if it's, you know,
958
01:14:21.620 --> 01:14:24.565
you know, what is a good change versus what is a bad change?
959
01:14:25.285 --> 01:14:26.985
At the same time, like,
960
01:14:28.005 --> 01:14:35.239
we have to we have to be careful not to be fucking cucks about it. Right? Like, we have to like like, peep like, there needs to be
961
01:14:35.699 --> 01:14:37.699
a bit of a backbone here. And I
962
01:14:38.500 --> 01:14:48.205
so so I think off the bat, like, we let the miners signal. And I think I think the miners are just gonna fucking activate this thing, and then we won't even have to it won't even mind. And I
963
01:14:48.905 --> 01:14:57.110
I actually think that there's a good chance that the freaks know I do have a bet where either me or Marty has to pay a million sats to, the Human Rights Foundation,
964
01:14:57.570 --> 01:14:58.550
a great cause,
965
01:14:59.165 --> 01:14:59.665
to,
966
01:15:00.605 --> 01:15:06.945
if if it gets if if Tab Root gets activated January 1st, Marty says it's gonna activate before January 1st. I say after.
967
01:15:08.710 --> 01:15:11.210
Yeah, James. You're good to go. Just fucking go for it.
968
01:15:11.670 --> 01:15:12.150
And,
969
01:15:12.870 --> 01:15:14.970
I I say I say afterwards.
970
01:15:15.990 --> 01:15:17.290
But at the same time,
971
01:15:18.655 --> 01:15:30.360
like, there's there's a very good chance that miners just activate this, and we just, like, fucking get it done with, and we don't even have to fucking you know, we don't even have to do this dick contest. I just think it's important that the minors realize my point is, I guess,
972
01:15:30.660 --> 01:15:35.460
I guess my point is of this long rambling is that I think it's important that the minors know that that we'll fucking
973
01:15:36.585 --> 01:15:43.885
you will fucking play ball if you have to play a ball. Right? Yeah. So on TFTC this week, Matt, I think you had an analogy where l o d true
974
01:15:44.505 --> 01:15:45.005
is,
975
01:15:46.730 --> 01:15:50.350
is the user pointing a gun to the miner's head and saying,
976
01:15:50.890 --> 01:15:57.905
hey. You need to happen. Right? And and in this analogy, what you want is that everyone to be packing,
977
01:15:59.164 --> 01:15:59.664
if
978
01:16:00.045 --> 01:16:06.349
need be, if push come to show, but not to do it out the gate. Right. I I I I think there's people that are, like,
979
01:16:06.650 --> 01:16:14.815
guns are bad, and then there's people, like, we should point the gun just at the minors. And I'm, like, we should have the guns loaded, and we'll point them at the minors if necessary. Right?
980
01:16:15.435 --> 01:16:19.695
Exactly. James just came back to our discussions, like, why why are we talking about guns?
981
01:16:20.140 --> 01:16:25.680
So, James, James, my metaphor state is talking about guns. Yeah. So, James That is true.
982
01:16:26.060 --> 01:16:50.415
James, my metaphor was I mean, you you have you have a situation where you have people that are, like, guns are bad, then you have people that are, like, we should just point a gun at the miners' heads and say, like, you have to activate this shit, and then I think I stand in the point of view where, like, we should have the gun loaded, we should be ready to aim it at the miners if we have to. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my thing is, to to overextend the metaphor is, like, I I conceal carry, and so
983
01:16:51.035 --> 01:17:09.440
conceal carry. Like, we you know, you you I hate quoting politicians, but, like, speak softly, carry a big stick. Don't, you know, try and Oh, yeah. You quoted a politician who's been dead for, like, a 100 years. Yeah. Good, you know. Yeah. I I I was gonna say something that probably wasn't good to say on the radio, but,
984
01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:11.460
but yeah.
985
01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:16.100
So I, you know, I I guess, yeah, Conceal Carry, your your lie equals true.
986
01:17:17.085 --> 01:17:21.345
So we had a question in the comments about why Luke thought that l o t,
987
01:17:22.364 --> 01:17:23.985
false was a bug.
988
01:17:25.300 --> 01:17:28.440
James, did you get to read Luke's post this week from,
989
01:17:28.740 --> 01:17:29.560
like, Sunday?
990
01:17:30.100 --> 01:17:30.600
I
991
01:17:32.515 --> 01:17:37.975
I read, like, a few responses. I I kinda skimmed the thread as I do most mailing list posts.
992
01:17:39.075 --> 01:17:40.455
Luke's a little bit delusional.
993
01:17:41.395 --> 01:17:41.895
He
994
01:17:42.660 --> 01:17:45.960
makes some pretty insane claims in there.
995
01:17:47.140 --> 01:17:51.960
And in general, he like like, with assuming UTXO, he, like, multiple times
996
01:17:52.534 --> 01:17:53.034
misconstrued
997
01:17:53.335 --> 01:17:53.994
the proposal
998
01:17:54.695 --> 01:17:57.914
as being, like, hard coding checkpoints or something.
999
01:17:58.614 --> 01:18:01.514
And I I've had to explain to him numerous times,
1000
01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:04.099
like, the actual nature of the proposal,
1001
01:18:04.639 --> 01:18:07.619
and each time he's gone, oh, okay. Yeah. That sounds fine.
1002
01:18:08.400 --> 01:18:10.995
So Luke's a little bit delusional, to be honest.
1003
01:18:12.915 --> 01:18:16.455
I I don't think I don't think what he wrote holds much weight in my book.
1004
01:18:17.475 --> 01:18:19.575
Yeah. I think he had some concerns about
1005
01:18:20.410 --> 01:18:25.469
if we have users with both LOT true and LOT false activated, there's possibilities
1006
01:18:25.850 --> 01:18:26.350
of,
1007
01:18:27.835 --> 01:18:30.975
the false chain being overtaken by the true chain
1008
01:18:32.315 --> 01:18:35.534
as far as work goes. And, he was also concerned,
1009
01:18:36.180 --> 01:18:38.040
in a nutshell about, like, the incentives
1010
01:18:38.420 --> 01:18:40.760
or sort of trying to second guess,
1011
01:18:41.620 --> 01:18:42.360
the activation
1012
01:18:42.820 --> 01:18:43.320
and,
1013
01:18:43.780 --> 01:18:44.440
you know,
1014
01:18:44.785 --> 01:18:54.170
just open up the avenue for users to act in, like, an unruly way and, you know, try to hold great hostage. That that's what it pretty much was in a nutshell.
1015
01:18:54.470 --> 01:18:59.210
I think, you know and I'm I'm glad people are raising that point. I I he made some claim.
1016
01:19:00.195 --> 01:19:04.295
I'll have to dig up the email. That was just, like, really, like, kind of ridiculous.
1017
01:19:05.395 --> 01:19:08.775
But, but, no, you look and and I think it's good.
1018
01:19:09.130 --> 01:19:13.790
Luke is, like, a good fixture to have in the community because he is a complete hardliner
1019
01:19:14.330 --> 01:19:24.815
whether whether it sort of makes sense or not. And, I mean, he's kind of a hardliner for his own stuff, like, for a while. I don't know how much you guys have looked in the loop, but, like, for a while, he was all on the tonal number system,
1020
01:19:25.250 --> 01:19:37.895
and I think, which which is, like, basically some alternate scheme. He's still on Tonal. Okay. He's still on Tonal. Yeah. And I think they Tonal is the only number system that that is a real number system. Every other number system is a shitcoin.
1021
01:19:38.595 --> 01:19:41.415
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Is it 16 or something?
1022
01:19:43.190 --> 01:19:45.770
It might be 16, and then and then there are weird
1023
01:19:46.150 --> 01:19:46.650
names
1024
01:19:47.030 --> 01:19:52.495
for each number in the in the columns. I don't get it at all. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
1025
01:19:53.355 --> 01:20:03.080
Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's how I would characterize some of what loop believes. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. I'm glad I'm glad he participates in Bitcoin. I'm I am a pro Easier to to
1026
01:20:03.700 --> 01:20:12.595
to do in a computer system because, you know, it's it's a multiple of of 2. I don't know. Like I mean, shout out to him. He he I mean
1027
01:20:13.610 --> 01:20:24.335
Oh, yeah. We could break. It's a lot slower. It's a little bit it's a little bit offensive because he's been complaining about not getting developer funding and, you know, I've been sending him money every month for the last 8 months to 9 months. Oh, yeah.
1028
01:20:24.795 --> 01:20:26.575
Through my my GitHub Sponsors,
1029
01:20:26.955 --> 01:20:30.635
Bill, which is uses dirty fiat to be to be honest. But,
1030
01:20:31.220 --> 01:20:33.640
I think I actually both I fund both of you guys.
1031
01:20:35.300 --> 01:20:39.480
Do you both have GitHub Sponsors? I definitely fund them. Yeah. You do. Thank you, man.
1032
01:20:40.355 --> 01:20:40.855
And,
1033
01:20:41.395 --> 01:20:46.135
I mean, number goes down on that if you price them sats, like, the amount of money I've been giving you guys.
1034
01:20:46.835 --> 01:20:47.335
But,
1035
01:20:48.710 --> 01:20:54.810
Appreciate it, Matt. Yeah. But but but Luke is, like, one of the most successful Bitcoin developers on GitHub Sponsors,
1036
01:20:55.190 --> 01:21:04.105
and he always complains about not getting funding. But cheers to him. He just got a big a big funding around from Wasabi Wallet and Bull Bitcoin,
1037
01:21:04.950 --> 01:21:07.690
So that's good to see, and that's where his work on Bitcoin Knots,
1038
01:21:08.470 --> 01:21:10.970
which is basically a fork of Bitcoin Core,
1039
01:21:11.670 --> 01:21:12.890
that he maintains
1040
01:21:13.190 --> 01:21:14.455
that also has
1041
01:21:15.015 --> 01:21:16.475
a blacklist implemented,
1042
01:21:16.935 --> 01:21:17.435
and,
1043
01:21:19.655 --> 01:21:28.260
he it serves it serves Neutrino filters when the I think Bitcoin Core now serves neutrino filters, but that was a big thing for a while that that NOS was the only one that did.
1044
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:29.219
Hell, yeah.
1045
01:21:29.735 --> 01:21:32.535
So, yeah, congrats to Luke. It's awesome to see. Glad to have
1046
01:21:34.695 --> 01:21:38.875
Just to just to it's important for the freaks to realize that American HODL is not supporting
1047
01:21:39.260 --> 01:21:47.840
Bitcoin developers the way he should be. So every time he flexes, it's important to let him know that he should support developers more. Oh, that's funny. I, yeah. I hadn't realized.
1048
01:21:49.235 --> 01:21:55.255
That's a new flex. The new flex shouldn't be, like, posting your stack. It should be posting how much you're contributing to Bitcoin developer.
1049
01:21:59.340 --> 01:21:59.840
What?
1050
01:22:02.060 --> 01:22:03.659
Hey. Just trying to give back,
1051
01:22:04.300 --> 01:22:06.800
you know, into the community however you can.
1052
01:22:07.155 --> 01:22:07.655
Yeah.
1053
01:22:08.435 --> 01:22:12.455
I mean, the the only reason I contribute to you guys is so that you have to come on the podcast.
1054
01:22:13.315 --> 01:22:13.715
So,
1055
01:22:15.630 --> 01:22:16.130
James,
1056
01:22:17.150 --> 01:22:21.010
cold core. We had we had Craig Raw, the fucking
1057
01:22:21.310 --> 01:22:27.175
notorious Craig Raw on the podcast last week. This guy is a fucking boss. Big assort dependencies.
1058
01:22:27.955 --> 01:22:31.895
Yeah. He's talking about adversarial environment. He's talking about what is cold storage.
1059
01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:37.380
Do you even you your cold storage is fucking hot storage. You think it's cold, but it's not cold.
1060
01:22:38.800 --> 01:22:39.940
Why cold core?
1061
01:22:40.480 --> 01:22:41.140
You know,
1062
01:22:41.594 --> 01:22:45.835
show us cold core. Why are you working on it? Why should people even consider it a, you know
1063
01:22:46.715 --> 01:22:48.735
why is what you're doing over there important?
1064
01:22:49.730 --> 01:22:55.989
Yeah. So the fact of the matter is I really don't give a shit whether anybody actually uses cold core because I built it for myself.
1065
01:22:57.665 --> 01:22:58.165
I,
1066
01:22:58.705 --> 01:23:02.405
you know, used to I I I love Coldcard, which is NDK's,
1067
01:23:03.425 --> 01:23:05.045
offline Bitcoin hardware wallet,
1068
01:23:05.870 --> 01:23:07.330
and I use that personally.
1069
01:23:09.070 --> 01:23:10.770
And I really hated
1070
01:23:11.630 --> 01:23:13.889
having to set up a bunch of infrastructure,
1071
01:23:15.935 --> 01:23:17.795
like Electrum personal server,
1072
01:23:19.215 --> 01:23:20.995
using an Electrum client itself,
1073
01:23:23.400 --> 01:23:30.219
Because Electrum I mean, Electrum's like a nice piece of software in in some sense and that it has a lot of features, it's pretty well written,
1074
01:23:31.245 --> 01:23:37.344
but it's a massive project. There's there's a lot of lines of code and a lot of dependencies, and it pulls a bunch of stuff in.
1075
01:23:38.605 --> 01:23:39.105
And,
1076
01:23:40.100 --> 01:23:44.280
increasingly, these software supply chain attacks have gotten more popular where,
1077
01:23:44.660 --> 01:23:45.320
you know,
1078
01:23:46.100 --> 01:23:52.215
if you run a major software project, you have what are called dependencies, and and basically, that's just pulling in other people's code,
1079
01:23:53.235 --> 01:24:06.765
so that you don't have to write it yourself. So for example, if I write any Bitcoin code, I'm probably gonna have to run the shot 256 function. Well, you know, I don't really wanna rewrite the shot 256 function, so I'm gonna pull in some dependency where that's already written for me.
1080
01:24:07.645 --> 01:24:11.745
And over the past few years, we've just seen an increasing number of of attacks,
1081
01:24:12.445 --> 01:24:13.425
related to
1082
01:24:14.820 --> 01:24:15.320
somebody,
1083
01:24:15.699 --> 01:24:19.400
you know, finding so so you can go out, download the source code for some wallet,
1084
01:24:20.179 --> 01:24:26.094
analyze the dependency graph of what they're using, and then find, you know, some tiny project
1085
01:24:26.554 --> 01:24:29.295
which is like a dependency of a dependency of a dependency,
1086
01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:44.855
take over that project, you know, go to the maintainer who's probably, like, overworked and, you know, last updated the code 6 months from now or 6 months previous, and say, hey. I wanna take over your project. I'm gonna be a good maintainer. And many people are totally willing to do this.
1087
01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:50.100
And then you just embed some malicious code that says, hey. If I'm running under these circumstances,
1088
01:24:50.400 --> 01:24:50.900
exfiltrate,
1089
01:24:51.360 --> 01:24:55.300
you know, the encrypted proof keep file to this to this endpoint.
1090
01:24:56.055 --> 01:25:04.155
And then all of a sudden, bam, you know, you're you're you're compromised without even having realized it. And this is an academic because it actually happened to
1091
01:25:05.610 --> 01:25:07.070
BitPay's copay wallet,
1092
01:25:07.849 --> 01:25:11.630
a few years ago. Yeah. So they got fucking wrecked.
1093
01:25:12.250 --> 01:25:17.235
Yeah. I mean, it's it it it was not good, and so anytime I was running Electrum,
1094
01:25:18.175 --> 01:25:22.515
you know, I would do so in a container, I would, like, take all these these really
1095
01:25:23.270 --> 01:25:30.010
sophisticated measures that I couldn't expect, and that that I I myself could barely do consistently because they were so complicated,
1096
01:25:30.525 --> 01:25:34.945
And I'm a fucking software engineer, so it's like, how could I expect
1097
01:25:35.804 --> 01:25:39.025
regular Bitcoin users to to do this kind of stuff
1098
01:25:39.429 --> 01:25:40.969
just to have some,
1099
01:25:41.270 --> 01:25:41.929
you know,
1100
01:25:42.949 --> 01:25:47.505
vague feeling of of relative security. And so I said, okay. There's gotta be there's gotta be a better way.
1101
01:25:48.784 --> 01:25:53.284
And so I I looked into it, and if you want to send and receive Bitcoin,
1102
01:25:53.905 --> 01:25:58.630
you really don't need that much. So Electrum personal server is doing a lot of heavy lifting
1103
01:25:59.010 --> 01:26:12.025
that's basically amounts to indexing the entire blockchain and, you know, having having an address index on hand for kind of any conceivable address you might want, when the reality is that you really probably only care about your own wallet. And so
1104
01:26:12.469 --> 01:26:13.809
given that fact,
1105
01:26:14.310 --> 01:26:18.570
Bitcoin Core's modern RPC interface now since version 0.19
1106
01:26:19.975 --> 01:26:24.955
lets you do pretty much everything you need to maintain your own coins without having to
1107
01:26:25.415 --> 01:26:28.475
have this separate index and and all this extra software.
1108
01:26:28.870 --> 01:26:29.370
So,
1109
01:26:29.830 --> 01:26:30.330
basically,
1110
01:26:31.030 --> 01:26:39.965
I wanted to write something that I could use myself and feel pretty good about and and not feel like I had spend half a day, like, resurrecting the setup whenever I wanted to do anything.
1111
01:26:40.985 --> 01:26:45.960
And then I wanted to make something that would be sort of an entry point for
1112
01:26:46.500 --> 01:26:47.000
people
1113
01:26:47.780 --> 01:26:52.199
who are technical, but but don't have experience maybe per se on the command line.
1114
01:26:52.820 --> 01:26:53.765
Because I think
1115
01:26:54.245 --> 01:27:01.145
as things go forward, there's just in the same way that everybody needs to become acquainted with public key cryptography and key management,
1116
01:27:01.480 --> 01:27:07.900
I think people are gonna need to become acquainted with the command line because in many ways, it's really just the only way to be
1117
01:27:08.360 --> 01:27:10.699
more sure of what software you're actually running.
1118
01:27:11.465 --> 01:27:14.845
And the way that I learned the command line in Linux more generally is,
1119
01:27:15.865 --> 01:27:20.285
in high school, you know, I was setting up media servers and trying to run Linux, and I was just, like, basically
1120
01:27:20.820 --> 01:27:25.960
copy pasting commands that, you know, I'd read in tutorials and and kinda like learning the command line. So,
1121
01:27:27.460 --> 01:27:33.285
I wanted to kind of provide an avenue for people who are technical but maybe don't know Linux,
1122
01:27:33.825 --> 01:27:36.645
to start working in the command line. And I figured that
1123
01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:40.300
cold core would be a cool way to do that, while simultaneously
1124
01:27:40.679 --> 01:27:41.179
minimizing,
1125
01:27:41.559 --> 01:27:45.179
the dependencies there. And so there is, you can either use
1126
01:27:45.955 --> 01:27:54.375
a command line interface, or there's a little graphical interface, but within the terminal. So there's yeah. So you're flashing a screenshot of that up right there.
1127
01:27:55.120 --> 01:28:05.125
And and it feels kinda graphical the graphical interfaces in the terminal are, like, super happy. Yeah. Exactly. You know, you you just you feel it feels cool using that stuff.
1128
01:28:06.145 --> 01:28:06.545
And,
1129
01:28:06.945 --> 01:28:13.340
yeah. I I I'm a big fan of that kind of thing. I mean, even being a jaded software engineer, so it gives me a little glimmer of, like,
1130
01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:14.380
of,
1131
01:28:14.760 --> 01:28:18.780
joy when I crack open a terminal interface like that. So
1132
01:28:19.445 --> 01:28:23.625
I wanted to write something that that was cool, that was fun to use, but very, very simple,
1133
01:28:24.005 --> 01:28:24.824
very readable,
1134
01:28:25.125 --> 01:28:25.864
0 dependencies.
1135
01:28:26.910 --> 01:28:28.610
Just Is there 0 dependencies?
1136
01:28:29.470 --> 01:28:31.330
All here here are the dependencies.
1137
01:28:31.950 --> 01:28:37.954
A Python interpreter, which which every modern operating system ships with, and Bitcoin Core.
1138
01:28:38.494 --> 01:28:43.560
Those are literally the only only dependencies. There's no package manager. There's no install process.
1139
01:28:43.940 --> 01:28:46.520
You literally just clone this single script,
1140
01:28:46.900 --> 01:28:52.135
have Bitcoin Core running, and then run this thing in a terminal, and and you're off to the races.
1141
01:28:53.075 --> 01:28:53.575
Indeed.
1142
01:28:54.755 --> 01:28:56.340
Yeah, James. I've used it it for,
1143
01:28:56.980 --> 01:28:58.340
for Test Wallet, and,
1144
01:28:58.980 --> 01:29:01.239
yeah, it's a pretty smooth experience.
1145
01:29:02.100 --> 01:29:05.239
I was really impressed with it. I I really love how,
1146
01:29:05.814 --> 01:29:15.780
you know, light it is and, you know, not having any dependencies is like a huge win there. So right now, it's single sig. Right?
1147
01:29:16.320 --> 01:29:16.820
Yep.
1148
01:29:17.280 --> 01:29:22.020
You you have plans to to do multisig too? I do have plans to do multisig.
1149
01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:26.515
I've gotta think about that and how to make that flow,
1150
01:29:26.895 --> 01:29:29.555
you know, kind of tractable and easy for people.
1151
01:29:30.015 --> 01:29:32.035
And that's gonna require a little bit more code.
1152
01:29:32.520 --> 01:29:46.045
So I'm trying to think of if I can do it in a way that it's like sort of a an opt in plug in because, obviously, that's gonna add some complexity and some code, and so I'm trying to figure out a way where you could just kind of layer that on top of the basic cold core.
1153
01:29:47.465 --> 01:29:57.250
But, yeah, that's that is something I'm thinking about. But, I mean, you're integrating directly into h w I. Right? No. I'm not even using h w I. That h h w I requires
1154
01:29:57.630 --> 01:29:58.130
dependencies.
1155
01:29:58.750 --> 01:29:59.650
Oh, is it?
1156
01:30:00.355 --> 01:30:08.455
I there yeah. There are no dependencies in this map. So so it's only is it only it's not only is it single sync, but it's only cold card?
1157
01:30:08.830 --> 01:30:39.515
Only cold card right now. I my claim is that if there is That's fine that's fine by me. Yep. If there's another open source air gap wallet, I will support it. I will build in the support. Well, I mean someone sends a wallet. You can it already probably supports foundation devices if they ever ship because it's a clone. Right? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. So yeah. But the RINA cold cold card's the only hardware that's that that meets those criteria, and so that's the only one I'm gonna supporting. You should you should ship a separate package and just call it clone core, and it's the exact thing.
1158
01:30:39.895 --> 01:30:43.340
And just, like, as a troll, that like, that's the foundation devices one.
1159
01:30:44.219 --> 01:30:49.280
James, how about the Spectre device that they've got over? What's it called?
1160
01:30:50.699 --> 01:30:52.320
They call it Spectre, don't they?
1161
01:30:53.085 --> 01:30:56.785
I think so. What I think Spectre hardware wallet or whatever.
1162
01:30:57.245 --> 01:31:09.665
Yeah. Have you taken a look at that one yet? Crypto advance. Right? I think I skimmed the read me, and it is it's a DIY assembly process. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But they also sell it. They sell it prebuilt. Okay. I should I should give that a shot.
1163
01:31:10.225 --> 01:31:21.920
Absolutely. It probably it probably I mean, it just uses PSPTs. It probably just works. I'm I'm sure. This is Yeah. I'm sure it probably does. As far as cold core is concerned, it's just taking the, it's taking a non signed PSVT,
1164
01:31:22.540 --> 01:31:37.910
and then and then oh, no. It's constructing a non signed PSVT, and then it's taking a signed PSVT and broadcasting it. Right? Like, that's it. Ex that that is literally it. The only way to parse specific thing is that we we parse your XPUB descriptor
1165
01:31:38.530 --> 01:31:55.750
from a file that the cold card will output, but, like, that is so trivial to to add for other ones. If they use the same standard as cold card, which is a very easy standard to follow, and they just provide you with an unsigned PSVT, I mean, they they have you construct an unsigned PSVT and then provide you with a signed PSVT,
1166
01:31:57.010 --> 01:31:57.910
then they're compatible.
1167
01:31:58.210 --> 01:32:02.605
Yep. Exactly. Which is really what we should expect from all hardware wallets. We shouldn't expect
1168
01:32:02.905 --> 01:32:05.005
fucking James to change this software.
1169
01:32:05.705 --> 01:32:08.685
We should expect them to just comply with an existing standard.
1170
01:32:09.050 --> 01:32:11.710
James, there's a question from Ed in the audience.
1171
01:32:12.730 --> 01:32:16.030
Does do we need Bitcoin Core to be running locally to use Coldcore?
1172
01:32:16.825 --> 01:32:17.725
Mister Ed,
1173
01:32:18.344 --> 01:32:22.765
no. You don't. Well, so let me put it this way. You need Bitcoin Core running
1174
01:32:23.225 --> 01:32:28.270
somewhere where the RPC interface is accessible, and that can be via the network. So what I do personally
1175
01:32:28.730 --> 01:32:32.010
local. It needs to be on you know, it could be,
1176
01:32:33.035 --> 01:32:37.695
you know, what I do is, I have a a Bitcoin core instance running in a certain location,
1177
01:32:38.075 --> 01:32:40.095
and I'm on my own WireGuard VPN.
1178
01:32:40.750 --> 01:33:01.980
And so when I'm remote, I can access that Bitcoin core instance and that's going To the plebs to the plebs, it can work on my node if you're in the same Wi Fi. Like, you're in the same Wi Fi, you're in the same network. That means as as far as we're concerned, that's what local means. It doesn't mean that's on the same computer. Right? Yep. Yeah. So you need an instance of Bitcoin Core that you can access.
1179
01:33:02.440 --> 01:33:06.699
That's on your network. It's it's somewhere on your network. Network, on your Wi Fi. Yeah. Exactly.
1180
01:33:09.344 --> 01:33:09.844
Evan.
1181
01:33:11.585 --> 01:33:12.405
Yeah. I mean,
1182
01:33:12.825 --> 01:33:13.325
it's
1183
01:33:13.745 --> 01:33:16.460
a dope project. We're really liking so far, James.
1184
01:33:17.020 --> 01:33:22.780
Thanks, guys. Yeah. I I like it too. I use it personally for my main net funds. Maybe, you know, I
1185
01:33:23.739 --> 01:33:26.195
it's it's honestly, there's I mean, I'm
1186
01:33:26.994 --> 01:33:33.735
there's no formal release yet, so caveat emptor all that stuff. But, like, there's honestly not that much I can fuck up because
1187
01:33:34.409 --> 01:33:36.510
core is really doing all the heavy lifting,
1188
01:33:37.530 --> 01:33:38.190
you know,
1189
01:33:38.650 --> 01:33:44.495
I so there's there's not a lot that can go wrong there, but, you know, check it out, give it a read. If you know Python
1190
01:33:44.875 --> 01:33:51.535
Look. I agree. If if you're if everything you're saying is true, then it'd be suspicious if you weren't using it yourself.
1191
01:33:52.270 --> 01:33:58.850
So You gotta stand under your own bridge for sure. Yeah. That's what I appreciate about you. At least when you got rack trading, you did it yourself.
1192
01:34:00.385 --> 01:34:01.764
There is a shabby nobility.
1193
01:34:02.145 --> 01:34:03.204
Yeah. By yourself.
1194
01:34:03.505 --> 01:34:16.440
James, it's it's important that after you did that that I I proceed to give you shit about this for years. Like, it's gonna be a long time. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure your kid your kid is gonna rib you about this. Like, I'll I'll make sure that he under win.
1195
01:34:16.775 --> 01:34:18.395
I'd be disappointed, man.
1196
01:34:22.775 --> 01:34:30.760
So, I mean, I Evan, do you have anything else to discuss here about cold card cold core, or should we move to the next? Oh, it's a great product. I just wanna see people,
1197
01:34:31.239 --> 01:34:40.985
Project. Iterate on it more and, you know, get a couple more contributors and down the road, get some multisig. I mean, someone asked lower in the comments whether,
1198
01:34:42.010 --> 01:34:43.310
we prefer Wasabi
1199
01:34:43.770 --> 01:34:55.335
or Electron. And I think for a single sig wallet, this blows the hell out of both of them. It's it's amazing. It's a great solution. I like I like the idea of cold core. I mean, I like the idea of core plus
1200
01:34:55.955 --> 01:34:59.895
whatever you're using to interact with your cold card because this idea
1201
01:35:00.520 --> 01:35:01.020
that
1202
01:35:01.560 --> 01:35:05.260
I mean, you can use cold core in a prune node mode. Right, James?
1203
01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:19.840
Yeah. So, like, so, like, max, you're holding 10 gigs of space. And, and, like, honestly, like, if you're gonna be your own bank, like, I think you can find a computer that has 10 gigs of capacity. Mhmm. Like, that's fucking ridiculous. And I think you should find a computer that has 10 gigs of SSD capacity,
1204
01:35:20.460 --> 01:35:29.095
so fucking just fucking do it. And you just have core just straight up there, and you you have whatever you're doing to interact with your fucking keys directly in between,
1205
01:35:29.635 --> 01:35:35.415
and you make it happen. It's worth it. Yep. So Ed's asking here, does it use the same WAL format as core?
1206
01:35:36.190 --> 01:35:36.690
Ed,
1207
01:35:37.230 --> 01:35:43.015
the answer there is that your obviously, your keys still live on the cold card and they don't, you know,
1208
01:35:43.415 --> 01:35:49.035
the cold core doesn't know anything about your private keys, which is why I feel comfortable kinda recommending it.
1209
01:35:49.895 --> 01:35:55.670
What it does know about is your XPUB, which, obviously, if that leaks out, then there's some privacy implications. But,
1210
01:35:56.290 --> 01:36:04.045
but and it does use it with an air gap. It should be an air it should be a not not air gap, but it should be a dedicated computer just for that. Right?
1211
01:36:04.505 --> 01:36:10.150
Yeah. I mean, you know, to be honest, I use it on my personal workstation because cold core will keep your XPUB encrypted,
1212
01:36:11.250 --> 01:36:12.070
by way of,
1213
01:36:12.530 --> 01:36:14.230
the pass utility or GPG.
1214
01:36:14.825 --> 01:36:19.005
So Oh, so you provide a password and that's encrypted by the password? Yeah. Exactly.
1215
01:36:19.945 --> 01:36:24.810
So I I do that. I feel I feel fine with that. So someone u t s 9 asked,
1216
01:36:25.450 --> 01:36:26.410
does cold card
1217
01:36:27.370 --> 01:36:30.270
why can't I just use Bitcoin core qt anyway?
1218
01:36:30.890 --> 01:36:36.275
Because you can't use Bitcoin core with the cold card unless you use HWI, which has a bunch of dependencies. Right?
1219
01:36:36.575 --> 01:36:50.660
Yeah. There's, like, a long sequence of RPC commands that you can run if you know your XPOD descriptor to to do the right thing in core and get equivalent behavior. But, you know, frankly, it's just not as good as good an experience.
1220
01:36:52.395 --> 01:37:13.195
So I I prefer to use something that at least has a little bit of an interface and, you know, I I think the reality is, like, asking people to run these really complicated RPC commands probably It's never gonna happen. Yeah. It's, like, 7 people. It's, like, 15 people are gonna fucking do that shit. Yep. Yep. Ed, that was Literally. The question because in a sense, I didn't get around to this, but in a sense, you're sort of right because
1221
01:37:13.574 --> 01:37:18.315
what cold core does is it creates a watch only wallet in core
1222
01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:24.580
that corresponds to your XPub descriptor. So the keys the keys still live in in the cold card, obviously,
1223
01:37:25.040 --> 01:37:26.340
but you do have,
1224
01:37:27.040 --> 01:37:33.074
a Bitcoin Core watch only wallet that's watching your funds. And then and then CoolCore just, like, backs up to that.
1225
01:37:33.375 --> 01:37:40.210
I mean, that was a fantastic question. If you wanna add if you wanna know stupid questions, like, go on to Clubhouse. You can see some stupid questions over there.
1226
01:37:40.510 --> 01:37:42.850
Very good question. They're not dumb questions.
1227
01:37:43.715 --> 01:37:45.095
And then no question
1228
01:37:45.555 --> 01:37:55.790
it freaks. If you ask a dumb question, we just won't answer it. But I I I really do I I've fallen the camp of there's very few dumb questions. I I will not say there are no dumb questions.
1229
01:37:56.450 --> 01:38:12.380
There are no dumb questions. I've had enough of this this India pale hard seltzer that I'll entertain pretty much anything. So There we go. That's what I'm talking about. James, I don't know if you're aware, but we kind of go hard on this on this show. So I I hope you're ready. I I assume nothing else,
1230
01:38:12.760 --> 01:38:13.980
you know, if you're involved.
1231
01:38:16.520 --> 01:38:18.345
Okay. I mean, I
1232
01:38:18.725 --> 01:38:22.165
look. I'm I'm pretty excited about your project here. I think it's,
1233
01:38:22.885 --> 01:38:25.385
it's an important one. I'm glad you're working on it.
1234
01:38:26.190 --> 01:38:29.550
Thanks, man. It was like I said, it was very self serving. And,
1235
01:38:30.030 --> 01:38:39.395
at this point, I'm my own satisfied customer, so there's a little bit of work to be done on the sending interface, but, realistically, you shouldn't ever be sending anyway. So
1236
01:38:40.355 --> 01:38:45.730
Yeah, man. Just really cool to see. It seems like the best projects in the space for people scratching their own engine.
1237
01:38:46.110 --> 01:38:47.330
It's great that they use
1238
01:38:47.790 --> 01:38:52.290
and now treat us to the product as well. So awesome tool to add to the article.
1239
01:38:52.735 --> 01:39:01.370
So, I mean, I that's, like, a question that, like, the majority of of of the people who join us here on dispatch are open source,
1240
01:39:01.830 --> 01:39:02.330
contributors,
1241
01:39:02.790 --> 01:39:03.290
maintainers,
1242
01:39:03.910 --> 01:39:05.449
just in general developers
1243
01:39:05.910 --> 01:39:08.090
that are contributing to open source software.
1244
01:39:10.015 --> 01:39:11.555
I'm trying to be more
1245
01:39:13.535 --> 01:39:18.969
you know, I've I've been trying to scratch that edge. It's been hard for me, to be quite honest, in terms of,
1246
01:39:19.590 --> 01:39:21.210
my understanding of code.
1247
01:39:21.670 --> 01:39:26.975
But on one side, like, that I've been very focused on is is is trying to facilitate,
1248
01:39:28.795 --> 01:39:30.095
funding of
1249
01:39:30.590 --> 01:39:34.449
just open source development in general. And then this idea that free open source
1250
01:39:35.070 --> 01:39:39.410
software doesn't have an easy monetization model, this idea that
1251
01:39:40.045 --> 01:39:43.825
that that that that people should go for closed source
1252
01:39:44.205 --> 01:39:47.505
because they can profit easier than if they go open source
1253
01:39:49.190 --> 01:39:55.290
is is a very dangerous mindset. It's a mindset that I wholeheartedly disagree with, which is interesting.
1254
01:39:55.895 --> 01:39:59.675
You know, we had the whole libertarian conversation earlier. It's interesting because,
1255
01:40:00.695 --> 01:40:08.180
some people might call it socialist, but I don't think it's socialist. I think this I I think it's viral. It's like this idea that you have open source,
1256
01:40:09.040 --> 01:40:09.540
code
1257
01:40:10.160 --> 01:40:18.275
that can do all these fucking different things, and you can mold it into all the all these other different things is super powerful. Like, it can't be stopped. It's like this this
1258
01:40:18.655 --> 01:40:21.235
this amazing viral fucking loop.
1259
01:40:22.710 --> 01:40:31.265
So now that I have both of you guys here, and, I mean, you've dedicated yourselves I mean, you both have separate jobs that, you know, pay your fiat paycheck and and pay your fiat rent.
1260
01:40:32.065 --> 01:40:35.125
But but you both have dedicated yourselves to open source development.
1261
01:40:36.545 --> 01:40:38.725
I'm really curious and and and
1262
01:40:39.330 --> 01:40:42.150
full disclosure, this is something that I'm working on with
1263
01:40:42.850 --> 01:40:44.070
with James himself,
1264
01:40:45.010 --> 01:40:47.350
to to create a foundation to support,
1265
01:40:47.755 --> 01:40:50.895
free open source software going forward. So it's a it's a very
1266
01:40:51.195 --> 01:40:58.580
it's a very important topic to me. It's a topic that I I plan to focus on even heavy heavier going on in the future.
1267
01:40:59.200 --> 01:41:01.380
But but as 2 open source developers,
1268
01:41:02.240 --> 01:41:04.180
I'm curious where you stand here. Like,
1269
01:41:04.725 --> 01:41:06.264
should should people be concerned
1270
01:41:06.645 --> 01:41:16.100
that there's no real straightforward business model for open stores? Should people be like like, she'll like, should we care about open sort like, why should we care about open source?
1271
01:41:17.120 --> 01:41:18.179
Go for it, Adam.
1272
01:41:18.800 --> 01:41:21.140
Well, you know, when you're dealing with
1273
01:41:21.505 --> 01:41:22.725
something that could be
1274
01:41:23.105 --> 01:41:26.485
as profound and important to you as your life savings,
1275
01:41:27.345 --> 01:41:29.045
you wanna have some assurances
1276
01:41:29.425 --> 01:41:30.325
as as to
1277
01:41:30.960 --> 01:41:33.940
what code that those keys are passing through.
1278
01:41:34.480 --> 01:41:34.980
So,
1279
01:41:35.360 --> 01:41:36.340
in our space,
1280
01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:40.100
I think being open source is imperative, and I would
1281
01:41:40.685 --> 01:41:41.985
never ever consider,
1282
01:41:42.845 --> 01:41:43.985
running a
1283
01:41:44.445 --> 01:41:44.945
proprietary
1284
01:41:45.405 --> 01:41:46.145
closed source
1285
01:41:46.445 --> 01:41:50.909
wallet with any serious amount of funds. And there's simply no need to.
1286
01:41:51.929 --> 01:41:53.150
As far as,
1287
01:41:54.330 --> 01:41:54.909
you know,
1288
01:41:55.905 --> 01:42:00.005
monetary models and and funding models for open source projects,
1289
01:42:01.585 --> 01:42:07.260
there's no denying that, you know, just going off donations alone is not really feasible
1290
01:42:07.560 --> 01:42:10.940
for a project that can be done that needs full time
1291
01:42:11.455 --> 01:42:15.315
support and attention. I mean, it's just not gonna work that way.
1292
01:42:15.695 --> 01:42:16.175
But,
1293
01:42:16.495 --> 01:42:19.020
I think a lot of people are messing with,
1294
01:42:20.220 --> 01:42:30.335
you know, new ways of thinking of it, you know, not just charging for the software, but let letting that stuff all be open and open stores and have contributors contribute to it.
1295
01:42:30.875 --> 01:42:34.895
But I I think the important thing is gonna be the other service you could potentially,
1296
01:42:35.915 --> 01:42:36.975
support if it's
1297
01:42:37.590 --> 01:42:45.610
a or provide if it's, like, a big service. And I think samurai is really paving the way for that and, you know, have doing a good job
1298
01:42:46.095 --> 01:42:50.114
as far as, you know, making money off the Whirlpool fees while
1299
01:42:50.575 --> 01:42:53.635
continuing to iterate on all these great tools. But,
1300
01:42:54.080 --> 01:42:55.860
you know, it's not an easy,
1301
01:42:56.560 --> 01:42:57.060
answer,
1302
01:42:57.679 --> 01:43:09.055
as to, like, you know, keeping these things running. And, you know, while developers are trying to figure out what they could provide, how they could bring in money to keep the project going, I I really do think that,
1303
01:43:09.675 --> 01:43:10.335
you know,
1304
01:43:11.090 --> 01:43:12.789
user donations are very important.
1305
01:43:15.889 --> 01:43:18.895
So, I mean, to just be clear here for the caption,
1306
01:43:19.355 --> 01:43:22.095
I people on Twitter see the caption
1307
01:43:22.635 --> 01:43:27.980
automatically without hearing the sound, so they're gonna they're more likely to click in if they they see that caption.
1308
01:43:28.860 --> 01:43:31.600
So it's a little bit of a clickbait. It's a little bit of a clickbait.
1309
01:43:32.220 --> 01:43:37.965
And for the for the listeners of the podcast, my caption is open source devs will have fun staying poor.
1310
01:43:39.005 --> 01:43:42.224
James, do you disagree with the statement on the subtitles?
1311
01:43:42.764 --> 01:43:47.025
Alright. Well, I got a few things to knock out before I I get around to that. Number 1,
1312
01:43:47.670 --> 01:43:49.610
big thanks to Cantion John
1313
01:43:50.070 --> 01:43:56.010
for the funny comment about cold core reminding him of old computer RPGs. That's totally what I was going for.
1314
01:43:56.395 --> 01:44:01.275
Oh, yeah. Nice. And and a quick note about, Matt, what you said, you know, don't
1315
01:44:02.075 --> 01:44:04.495
nobody should feel self conscious for not
1316
01:44:04.969 --> 01:44:06.750
being an open source dev,
1317
01:44:07.850 --> 01:44:10.429
because, Matt, I I think in many ways you do
1318
01:44:11.050 --> 01:44:15.385
analogous work, but with wet code instead of dry code, which ultimately
1319
01:44:15.765 --> 01:44:17.705
you can make the argument pretty credibly
1320
01:44:18.245 --> 01:44:21.865
that that's socializing these ideas and making sure there's a
1321
01:44:22.550 --> 01:44:24.730
community and distribution of information
1322
01:44:25.429 --> 01:44:30.170
is as important as the sort of raw innovation itself in the code.
1323
01:44:30.755 --> 01:44:39.975
So you're doing God's work, man, and, I don't I it doesn't matter if you never write a a live code for Bitcoin, you know, that that goes open
1324
01:44:40.580 --> 01:44:43.480
at all. If you keep doing the work you're doing, that's you know?
1325
01:44:43.780 --> 01:44:48.200
And is there more of a contribution than a lot of the the code that's written? So
1326
01:44:49.445 --> 01:44:56.185
so I I think, you know, there are lots of ways to be a sort of quote unquote open source participant in Bitcoin.
1327
01:44:57.630 --> 01:45:08.394
You know? Yeah. If you have a day job and and you're busy and you are sympathetic to Bitcoin and you wanna contribute somehow, hey, funding funding projects that you believe in, that's a great way to go.
1328
01:45:08.775 --> 01:45:09.914
And I think, thankfully,
1329
01:45:10.454 --> 01:45:15.340
we're gonna have some really great mechanisms for doing that. You know, I I do use GitHub Sponsors,
1330
01:45:16.440 --> 01:45:17.100
and that's,
1331
01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:20.620
honestly, the when I opened that up and
1332
01:45:20.965 --> 01:45:25.545
threw my page up, I was I was overwhelmed with the response. And, you know, within
1333
01:45:26.325 --> 01:45:34.280
something like 3 days, I had kind of met the the goal that I had set out to raise just to to do nights and weekends work on core. So,
1334
01:45:35.219 --> 01:45:38.040
that's a really cool avenue, and I I have found that
1335
01:45:39.435 --> 01:45:40.175
the corporations
1336
01:45:40.635 --> 01:45:44.095
here are at least give a lot of lip service to supporting,
1337
01:45:44.635 --> 01:45:47.295
development and in many cases, follow through on that.
1338
01:45:48.370 --> 01:45:48.870
Coinbase
1339
01:45:49.170 --> 01:45:53.750
is still lagging a little bit in my estimation despite making a lot of noise about it.
1340
01:45:54.370 --> 01:45:59.895
But didn't they did they did they fund somebody recently, or are they still just kind of saying, we'll we'll fund somebody?
1341
01:46:00.355 --> 01:46:01.335
Do you guys know?
1342
01:46:03.475 --> 01:46:05.335
I don't like they supported someone,
1343
01:46:06.035 --> 01:46:07.940
or no. They haven't funded shit.
1344
01:46:08.820 --> 01:46:17.835
I think oh, maybe they supported ProMag, but then ProMag withdrew. But any any the point is that, like, look, I mean The point is is that they're going public at a higher,
1345
01:46:18.375 --> 01:46:19.835
like, probably, like, a $150,000,000,000
1346
01:46:20.534 --> 01:46:23.675
valuation, and they've done shit a whole for a Bitcoin result.
1347
01:46:24.054 --> 01:46:26.210
And they've only accumulated a $130,000,000
1348
01:46:26.750 --> 01:46:27.489
worth of Bitcoin,
1349
01:46:27.790 --> 01:46:30.930
which is honestly, like, poor man's status compared to MicroStrategy.
1350
01:46:31.390 --> 01:46:32.375
Some random ads
1351
01:46:32.855 --> 01:46:34.235
some random as dotcomcomputercompany
1352
01:46:35.255 --> 01:46:45.250
has more Bitcoin than Coinbase, so they they can have fun staying for it. Oh, man. It was Yeah. I'll sign off on that. I mean, as you guys know, as as Matt knows, I have a very, like,
1353
01:46:46.270 --> 01:46:51.025
split brain take on Coinbase because in many ways, you know, I have, like, Coinbase nostalgia
1354
01:46:51.485 --> 01:46:54.785
for being one of the first exchanges. I was wrong. I apologize.
1355
01:46:56.285 --> 01:46:57.425
For what?
1356
01:46:57.880 --> 01:46:58.620
I googled,
1357
01:46:59.080 --> 01:47:02.540
one of my favorite Bitcoin developers got funded by Coinbase.
1358
01:47:03.240 --> 01:47:06.825
Who? You were right about ProMag, but the other guy, I feel bad about.
1359
01:47:07.625 --> 01:47:08.125
0xb10c?
1360
01:47:10.905 --> 01:47:11.865
Oh, yeah. That was
1361
01:47:13.065 --> 01:47:15.820
Dude's a fucking boss. Like, I met him once
1362
01:47:16.219 --> 01:47:27.145
at, New York City BitDevs. He's like, I love that guy. Like, he's fucking awesome. Alright. Well, they're on Coinbase then for for starting to step up. No. No. No. No. Fuck Coinbase, but I like that guy.
1363
01:47:27.525 --> 01:47:38.989
And I I also apologize for being wrong about them develop like, we we the only reason they did it was because Brian Armstrong got called out for being a racist prick and and supporting,
1364
01:47:40.455 --> 01:47:40.955
selling
1365
01:47:41.415 --> 01:47:44.555
surveillance software to US government agencies
1366
01:47:45.335 --> 01:47:46.315
way below market,
1367
01:47:47.050 --> 01:47:47.550
pretending
1368
01:47:48.090 --> 01:47:52.830
that he needed to recoup costs even though they made over a $1,000,000,000
1369
01:47:53.210 --> 01:47:57.364
worth of revenue last year. But, like, oh, they have to recoup the cost of, like, $150,000
1370
01:47:58.304 --> 01:48:03.364
deal with the US government. That's that's pretty scary. So then he went on Peter McCormick's podcast,
1371
01:48:03.820 --> 01:48:08.400
and, like, when Peter asked me, he goes, Matt, like, how can I pressure this guy?
1372
01:48:08.780 --> 01:48:22.349
Like, the only really tangible thing you can do is, like, oh, well, like, have him support Bitcoin core development. So, like, like, he did, like, the least minimum, you know, amount that he can fucking do. Mhmm. But, you know, Super Serial is raising a good point there
1373
01:48:22.650 --> 01:48:26.270
that, you know, fundamentally, look, in the early days, in the early years, Coinbase
1374
01:48:26.885 --> 01:48:37.720
made it easy for people to buy Bitcoin, certainly easier than going to Mt. Gox, which, you know, didn't look out for the people who did that. So I I do have Coinbase nostalgia. I hope they
1375
01:48:38.100 --> 01:48:44.360
reclaim their greatness and delisk all the shit coins and you know? But, but I'm not holding my breath.
1376
01:48:45.485 --> 01:48:48.145
Yeah. You'd be holding your breath for a long fucking time.
1377
01:48:48.925 --> 01:48:49.425
Yeah.
1378
01:48:51.085 --> 01:48:56.550
Yeah. I mean, I agree. Look. I bought, you know, I bought a lot of Bitcoin off of Coinbase, and,
1379
01:48:58.150 --> 01:48:59.850
they sent it all to the US government
1380
01:49:00.310 --> 01:49:02.330
and then proceeded to
1381
01:49:03.065 --> 01:49:07.405
focus on on Chickcoins. I I I just wish Coinbase focused more on
1382
01:49:08.185 --> 01:49:13.630
I just wish I just wish Coinbase focused as much on privacy as they did on registering
1383
01:49:14.090 --> 01:49:22.865
illegal securities. Like, I just wish, like, that was, like Yeah. There was, like, a balancing act there, but instead. But, anyway, I'm I'm glad they that they finally,
1384
01:49:23.485 --> 01:49:24.685
after all these years,
1385
01:49:25.325 --> 01:49:26.865
contribute to Bitcoin development.
1386
01:49:27.550 --> 01:49:33.890
And and I will applaud anyone who does that. I've said this on the podcast. We've applauded Okcoin and
1387
01:49:34.270 --> 01:49:35.970
bunch of other shitcoin exchanges,
1388
01:49:36.765 --> 01:49:41.665
for their their funding. And I think it's it's extra important that we do applaud that because,
1389
01:49:42.365 --> 01:49:44.730
otherwise, we'll never have it. Right? Mhmm.
1390
01:49:47.030 --> 01:49:53.050
Yeah. Social pressure works, freaks. Social pressure works. They tell us, you know, Matt, you're just being antisocial.
1391
01:49:53.995 --> 01:50:08.619
Like, why can't you just tow the party line? Why are you being a dickhead about things? And then they fucking do things because I'm a dickhead. You know? Like, if I didn't have the meme that was, like, open finance and, like, defy and, like, you just have, like, fucking
1392
01:50:09.175 --> 01:50:24.190
the DEA rating you with assault rifles, like, open like, they probably would not have funded core development. Like, you have to you have to pressure them. They feel it. They absolutely feel the pressure. If you think that these human beings that run these corporations do not feel pressure
1393
01:50:24.570 --> 01:50:31.905
based on social media, Like, you're living in a whole different world. Like, it doesn't matter how rich you are. That notification ring comes in.
1394
01:50:32.685 --> 01:50:40.170
Yep. Yep. Yep. No. I agree. I mean, you look. I think there are individuals in these companies, maybe even in certain cases, the founders who do feel personal
1395
01:50:41.525 --> 01:50:45.785
desire to fund development. But fundamentally, at the end of the day, it's a marketing exercise.
1396
01:50:46.165 --> 01:50:48.265
It's a marketing expenditure for the company.
1397
01:50:48.570 --> 01:50:51.390
And so that social pressure is really important.
1398
01:50:52.570 --> 01:50:53.070
Absolutely.
1399
01:50:53.770 --> 01:50:56.890
End of the day, it all comes down to your incentives, and,
1400
01:50:57.290 --> 01:51:04.665
you know, we gotta do our part to, like, you guys have incentives to do the right things that push the space and direction that you wanna see.
1401
01:51:05.204 --> 01:51:06.905
So keep being toxic, Matt.
1402
01:51:08.120 --> 01:51:10.940
I'm not toxic at all. I'm I'm welcoming.
1403
01:51:12.440 --> 01:51:14.460
I'm just welcoming in a
1404
01:51:15.475 --> 01:51:17.015
a unquestionable way.
1405
01:51:17.395 --> 01:51:21.655
Toxic used to be the have fun staying poor. That was, like, the have fun staying poor of 2018.
1406
01:51:22.300 --> 01:51:29.760
I never liked toxic, to be honest. And I have fun staying poor, I'm, like, a little bit questionable about. I love have fun staying poor.
1407
01:51:30.515 --> 01:51:37.255
I I and as long as you don't abuse it and tell someone who's actually poor and you use it and responsibly,
1408
01:51:37.795 --> 01:51:43.320
it's best. Well, I I mean, I think it's pretty hilarious when you tell, like, a rich person to have fun staying. Abs absolutely.
1409
01:51:43.700 --> 01:51:45.570
Yes. Yeah. That's understand.
1410
01:51:49.405 --> 01:51:50.224
But but but
1411
01:51:50.764 --> 01:51:52.284
on that note, like, I just
1412
01:51:55.680 --> 01:52:01.220
yeah. I I mean, I I think the most powerful thing about Have Fun Staying Poor is this idea that
1413
01:52:02.560 --> 01:52:08.885
we will never have enough Bitcoin, so we have to have fun staying poor. Like, people think it's an outward meme,
1414
01:52:09.264 --> 01:52:13.764
but really, I think it's an inward meme. It's something that I have to just accept as a person
1415
01:52:14.070 --> 01:52:18.170
that I will have to have fun staying poor because I will never have enough Bitcoin.
1416
01:52:22.615 --> 01:52:24.075
I I don't know, man. I think
1417
01:52:25.015 --> 01:52:29.115
I think anybody involved at this stage of the game is is is probably gonna have enough Bitcoin.
1418
01:52:29.480 --> 01:52:36.780
Yo, dude. I'm just trying to have fun staying poor. Can you just fucking close all that? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to get in the way of you having fun staying poor.
1419
01:52:39.272 --> 01:52:42.284
Throw throw out the big h. Sean Stack, and thank you.
1420
01:52:42.985 --> 01:52:45.164
What did Sean say? Sean's the boy.
1421
01:52:45.864 --> 01:52:48.264
This is h. Freaking their h. Wait. Oh, he's gonna
1422
01:52:49.090 --> 01:52:55.430
there's no way you you freaks can't make it happen. Like, you're just not organized enough. There's not enough of you in here, and and you just can't
1423
01:52:55.970 --> 01:53:04.364
like, I wish you could. It's a shame you can't. I hope that at 75 k, you'll have the resolve to do it. Unfortunately, the freaks have gotten weaker,
1424
01:53:05.380 --> 01:53:08.840
because the price dipped a little bit. Here we go. We got an a.
1425
01:53:10.820 --> 01:53:16.664
Oh, the a's are easy. The a's always come. It's right around the, like, s's that you start to peer out. Mhmm.
1426
01:53:18.164 --> 01:53:21.125
Mhmm. Yeah. Evan, you got something to talk about? I'm trying to
1427
01:53:22.720 --> 01:53:27.220
Yeah. What do you guys wanna talk about? We got some questions in the chat. We could talk,
1428
01:53:27.600 --> 01:53:28.420
Zeus dependencies.
1429
01:53:28.720 --> 01:53:31.620
We could talk about l 2. I saw there was,
1430
01:53:31.945 --> 01:53:34.764
a I found it. I found what I was looking for, Freaks.
1431
01:53:36.025 --> 01:53:36.764
This is,
1432
01:53:40.510 --> 01:53:41.550
this is what,
1433
01:53:42.989 --> 01:53:46.290
this is what fucking did it for, Brian Armstrong.
1434
01:53:47.775 --> 01:53:50.275
He had he had no choice. I mean, really, ultimately,
1435
01:53:52.575 --> 01:53:57.559
what what was he gonna do? He says, just let me flex. He was just gonna let me flex on him this way.
1436
01:54:00.020 --> 01:54:01.239
Apologies. Apologies.
1437
01:54:01.780 --> 01:54:04.119
To the freaks who are listening in the chat,
1438
01:54:04.635 --> 01:54:05.935
the freaks that are listening,
1439
01:54:07.034 --> 01:54:08.014
via podcast,
1440
01:54:09.514 --> 01:54:12.735
I am right now, I am flexing on Brian Armstrong
1441
01:54:13.650 --> 01:54:14.150
with
1442
01:54:14.770 --> 01:54:18.150
my open oh, that was horrible. What what was horrible?
1443
01:54:19.170 --> 01:54:22.150
I'm not Benz has just been trolling us this whole
1444
01:54:22.745 --> 01:54:23.245
episode.
1445
01:54:23.865 --> 01:54:37.380
Yeah. He didn't like your, choice of drink. I saw him comment. No. Yeah. No. He didn't Yeah. I mean, your choice of drink is horrible. I agree with him on that. It's it's it's better than the science. Can can this is open finance powered by Coinbase.
1446
01:54:37.760 --> 01:54:43.164
Like, how can how can Brian Armstrong not How can he avoid this? Like, this is just
1447
01:54:44.105 --> 01:54:48.284
I destroyed him. I absolutely destroyed him meme wise on this.
1448
01:54:50.610 --> 01:54:55.895
You know, I I would say he has no backbone, but I do think that the way he handled all the
1449
01:54:56.375 --> 01:54:57.275
SJW uproar
1450
01:54:57.655 --> 01:55:04.715
was pretty good. And I I do handled it he handled it better than I expected. I was hoping I could weaponize it against him.
1451
01:55:05.270 --> 01:55:12.370
Do you know that American Idol right now on Clubhouse, he just he just immediately just says, like, don't use Coinbase. They're racist. He just, like, says it non favorable,
1452
01:55:13.735 --> 01:55:15.195
which is fucking hilarious.
1453
01:55:15.495 --> 01:55:29.110
Well, I never I never I I recommend people away from Coinbase because they so aggressively push. But how powerful is this meme? This is like like, I get credit for a lot of memes that, like, honestly, guys, like, I'm not trying to own memes. Real memes aren't owned.
1454
01:55:29.815 --> 01:55:34.875
The reason stacking stats is powerful is because no one fucking owns it, and I would never attempt to own it.
1455
01:55:35.574 --> 01:55:41.130
This meme is so fucking powerful. Like, this just, like this sent shock waves
1456
01:55:41.430 --> 01:55:43.210
through the Coinbase organization.
1457
01:55:47.005 --> 01:55:48.465
That's really see it.
1458
01:55:48.925 --> 01:55:57.180
It's the trademark. The trademark on the bottom powered by Coinbase trademark fucking killed them. It just destroyed them. Like, there there was nothing they could do about that.
1459
01:55:58.655 --> 01:56:00.835
They felt it. They felt it hard.
1460
01:56:01.135 --> 01:56:02.435
And then all of a sudden
1461
01:56:03.695 --> 01:56:06.835
all of a sudden, they started doing community outreach.
1462
01:56:08.240 --> 01:56:13.460
So can we talk about price, or do you guys not wanna talk about price? No. We could talk we have the price livestream
1463
01:56:14.080 --> 01:56:20.985
on this, show. People love I I I wanna know from you. Start before you start, James Yeah. Yeah.
1464
01:56:21.525 --> 01:56:23.465
Kobe and Ledger Status
1465
01:56:24.119 --> 01:56:32.219
literally have a podcast called Up Only. They have a Twitch stream called Up Only. They get 8 x what we get as viewers because
1466
01:56:32.695 --> 01:56:59.690
the overwhelming majority of people just the all they wanna hear about is price. That's all they wanna hear about price. And I just wanna say to all the listeners here, we're gonna make way more money than anyone who's watching their stream. Okay? And and and and the majority of people don't realize, we're in the in group We're in the in group. We're just gonna stack stats. They're gonna try and trade, like, NFTs and all this garbage, and we're gonna make more money than them. And that's fine. We don't need the engagement because we have the stats. Okay, James. Continue.
1467
01:57:00.150 --> 01:57:03.270
Well, yeah. I I totally agree with that. And what you gotta realize is, like, that,
1468
01:57:05.110 --> 01:57:05.849
the moments
1469
01:57:06.215 --> 01:57:23.260
that you make a lot of money, you know, in Bitcoin and maybe in general in the world are not predictable. And so you just gotta stack and sit tight because you just don't know when it's gonna happen. And if you try and trade around it, as I mentioned earlier, you're just not gonna make money. But what I wanna know from you 2
1470
01:57:25.465 --> 01:57:27.645
is, a, do you have any firm
1471
01:57:28.105 --> 01:57:31.645
sort of price targets for this cycle, or do you think that's silly?
1472
01:57:31.960 --> 01:57:37.579
And b, do you think that there is this chance of this cycle being the last cycle
1473
01:57:37.880 --> 01:57:39.980
given that the marginal buyer now
1474
01:57:40.405 --> 01:57:55.969
seems to be institutional and, you know, by nature has stronger hands than in, say, 2017 when it was a bunch of retail, when when you're the guy on your sales team, you know, had coin market cap up on his phone at lunch. Do you think this is a different thing?
1475
01:57:56.429 --> 01:57:57.889
Oh, that's a really good question.
1476
01:57:59.595 --> 01:58:00.095
Price
1477
01:58:00.555 --> 01:58:01.055
targets.
1478
01:58:01.835 --> 01:58:03.055
Well, let's start there.
1479
01:58:04.155 --> 01:58:05.215
You know, obviously,
1480
01:58:06.600 --> 01:58:12.940
I don't have a crystal ball. I'm really just going based on my gut. I do think we're gonna have a mom's per year.
1481
01:58:13.615 --> 01:58:20.580
I really do think we're gonna have a similar situation to the last cycle where we have a crazy blow off top.
1482
01:58:21.060 --> 01:58:22.760
I think it's probably gonna happen
1483
01:58:23.540 --> 01:58:24.040
in,
1484
01:58:24.820 --> 01:58:28.920
you know, late December or or January as the tails get a little longer.
1485
01:58:30.385 --> 01:58:31.525
I'm expecting
1486
01:58:32.225 --> 01:58:35.525
I I don't think it's unreasonable to think that's gonna be at least a $200,000
1487
01:58:36.145 --> 01:58:40.800
Bitcoin, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to hit half a $1,000,000 this cycle.
1488
01:58:41.420 --> 01:58:45.600
But I do not think this is the final cycle at all.
1489
01:58:45.945 --> 01:58:46.605
I think,
1490
01:58:47.065 --> 01:58:53.885
the drawdown may be a little less severe than the previous cycles, but I still think it's gonna be quite violent.
1491
01:58:54.500 --> 01:59:08.095
Definitely see us, like, going to 500 k or something and then coming back all the way down to a 100 or us hitting, like, 350 and us coming down to, like, you know, 65 k or something. I think the cycle is still gonna
1492
01:59:09.035 --> 01:59:10.175
continue. I mean,
1493
01:59:10.849 --> 01:59:18.230
you know, people are gonna get greedy on the way up, and we're gonna go up way too hot, and it's gonna have to come back down to earth again.
1494
01:59:19.090 --> 01:59:19.909
I will,
1495
01:59:20.645 --> 01:59:21.945
Evan. First of all,
1496
01:59:23.205 --> 01:59:24.825
I love your because, see,
1497
01:59:26.005 --> 01:59:30.260
this is what pre pandemic people don't realize. Like like, Evan's just
1498
01:59:30.880 --> 01:59:31.380
nonchalant,
1499
01:59:35.040 --> 01:59:45.975
just, like, constant tone. Like, that's the tone we heard in the bars. That was, like, a very private tone. It was, like, it was just, like, Evan has been drinking. He's talking about Bitcoin. He's just been throwing a constant
1500
01:59:46.310 --> 01:59:51.210
tone, and then nothing will change. This was, like, a very intimate thing that we we got to feel,
1501
01:59:51.989 --> 01:59:52.890
New York City,
1502
01:59:53.510 --> 01:59:54.730
2020. But,
1503
01:59:56.415 --> 02:00:05.320
look, this idea, the final cycle, like, fuck you, all all you people, like, fuck you. Like like like, you'll know the top is in line when
1504
02:00:05.700 --> 02:00:12.615
the general consensus is that this is the final cycle. Like, I promise you last cycle, I thought it was the final cycle.
1505
02:00:13.315 --> 02:00:17.815
Did I think it was the final cycle up until 10 k? No. I was very conservative.
1506
02:00:18.540 --> 02:00:21.040
I was like, oh, we could just dump all the way down.
1507
02:00:21.580 --> 02:00:24.159
It's pretty funny that Vinnie called the top at 1100,
1508
02:00:24.699 --> 02:00:27.840
but, like, we might drop down below that, like, no one knows.
1509
02:00:28.365 --> 02:00:30.305
I'm, like, thinking all these things through.
1510
02:00:30.685 --> 02:00:38.350
And then once we pass 15 k, I was, like, hyper Bitcoinization is upon us. This is the final cycle. I do not have enough Bitcoin. We're all
1511
02:00:39.150 --> 02:00:40.770
fucked. When we hit that point,
1512
02:00:41.150 --> 02:00:43.970
you're gonna hit that point, freaks. When you hit that point,
1513
02:00:44.350 --> 02:00:57.250
that's the top. Yeah. That that that that's when we hit the top. We're gonna fall 70%, and Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. We're just gonna continue to pump after that. You know? And and and people who are humble as SaaS attackers will be completely unaffected.
1514
02:00:57.870 --> 02:01:01.810
Mhmm. But if you let your emotions get a hold of yourself,
1515
02:01:03.245 --> 02:01:04.785
it's gonna get fucking crazy.
1516
02:01:06.365 --> 02:01:07.105
Yeah. Absolutely.
1517
02:01:08.285 --> 02:01:12.390
You're your own worst enemy when trading this stuff. So, you know, and
1518
02:01:13.330 --> 02:01:18.630
you think that is the end and you don't have enough and you're feeling really greedy. You're trying to
1519
02:01:19.145 --> 02:01:21.005
think that, you know, you should be liquidating
1520
02:01:21.465 --> 02:01:25.725
other assets you have in your life and then be doing it, like, now now now, like, that's probably
1521
02:01:26.470 --> 02:01:30.570
when things are gonna The best is when you're, like, your boys are, like,
1522
02:01:32.230 --> 02:01:44.510
I'm too late. It's too risky for me or whatever. And, like, you're just putting in way more than your boys at a day a day. Like, as it stands, like, what are they doing? Like, what's going on, guys? Yep. Yep. Yep. I know that feel.
1523
02:01:45.530 --> 02:01:49.710
And I tell them. I try and like, I try and tell, like, the people I'm really close with
1524
02:01:50.090 --> 02:01:53.275
because, like, honestly, for opposite reasons, you shouldn't tell the public.
1525
02:01:53.755 --> 02:01:57.455
But I try and tell them exactly how much I'm putting into Bitcoin because
1526
02:01:57.835 --> 02:02:00.015
it hits them hard. They're like, oh, fuck.
1527
02:02:00.450 --> 02:02:07.350
I thought this guy was early, and he's still putting in blank amount into Bitcoin, and I'm just being a little bitch about it. It really does hit them.
1528
02:02:09.405 --> 02:02:21.900
Yeah. It's nuts. I mean but listen. You you can't kill yourself over it. You can, guide a horse to the water, but can't make Well, I I I think it's a greedy it's a greedy incentive. Like, I'm going to take care of all my friends and family.
1529
02:02:22.280 --> 02:02:24.380
Like, I will because I love them.
1530
02:02:24.725 --> 02:03:03.155
So I would like if they could pick up some of the slack and just, you know, like, buy some Bitcoin so I don't have to fucking spend as much on them. You know? Like, it it's it's it's it's not it's not a completely selfless thing. Like, Twitter is more of a selfless thing, I would say. The podcast is more of a selfless thing. When I show Bitcoin to friends and family, like, I'm hoping that I have another dude, another 2 or 3 dudes to to fucking pick up the slack with me when we need to, like, you know, handle Citadel Medical expenses. You know? Like, why, like, why should I handle that all myself? Like, it'd be nice if someone else could buy in at some fucking point. Well, then you want people to feel like they succeeded and they they made the decision
1531
02:03:03.535 --> 02:03:07.635
and, you know, they came along for the ride themselves and not like,
1532
02:03:08.030 --> 02:03:16.770
oh, you know, luckily, my rich buddy, Matt, was ringing about Bitcoin. Like, you you you want people who have made the choice to to buy into this themselves.
1533
02:03:20.085 --> 02:03:20.905
Yeah. Absolutely.
1534
02:03:22.565 --> 02:03:26.025
Evan, I wanna talk about how long have you been at Kraken for?
1535
02:03:29.860 --> 02:03:30.440
It's been,
1536
02:03:31.940 --> 02:03:33.480
what, since October?
1537
02:03:33.995 --> 02:03:38.015
But I really 3rd time on dispatch, we've never actually discussed
1538
02:03:38.555 --> 02:03:43.820
it. Yeah. I mean, we really it's really not been, a 100% approved yet, but you just
1539
02:03:44.780 --> 02:03:46.159
let that cat out the
1540
02:03:47.980 --> 02:03:49.679
bag. But, yeah. No worries.
1541
02:03:50.139 --> 02:03:52.395
It's been, it's been good. And, you know, hopefully,
1542
02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:01.620
Still can't.
1543
02:04:02.720 --> 02:04:03.040
It's,
1544
02:04:04.000 --> 02:04:09.220
I'll tell you about the the process when when I can, but, yeah, it's in a little bit of a funny state.
1545
02:04:11.105 --> 02:04:16.325
I fucking love that shit. Buddy. I thought that was a little bit I mean, yo, James, in your defense, like,
1546
02:04:16.785 --> 02:04:20.565
the majority of the public Bitcoin industry is employed by Kraken.
1547
02:04:21.010 --> 02:04:26.630
So, that's true. I had, like, maybe a 5050 shot. I might be working for Kraken and nobody knows.
1548
02:04:27.745 --> 02:04:28.245
Oh,
1549
02:04:28.945 --> 02:04:29.445
man.
1550
02:04:31.985 --> 02:04:33.285
That's fucking hilarious.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:06 PM
Duration: 9901.062
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.399 --> 00:00:02.659
2
00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:09.975
let, you know, paying municipal workers in Bitcoin, putting some of the city's reserves in Bitcoin, letting people pay taxes in Bitcoin.
3
00:00:10.835 --> 00:00:23.289
4
00:00:23.965 --> 00:00:53.740
5
00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:55.500
6
00:00:55.800 --> 00:01:02.965
to be hostile to to a currency that they control. For people who invest in Bitcoin, the allure is precisely that it's not backed by a central,
7
00:01:04.244 --> 00:01:09.790
government. So it's not manipulatable by a central You were talking about investing government resources
8
00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:11.630
9
00:01:11.930 --> 00:01:13.870
resource, which I scares people a bit.
10
00:01:14.605 --> 00:01:19.825
11
00:01:20.205 --> 00:01:24.600
It you know, I think it's something worth studying. I think it's something worth studying and worth looking at.
12
00:02:01.020 --> 00:02:02.960
13
00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:12.395
And we're here for another week of Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
14
00:02:12.855 --> 00:02:17.520
I'm your host, Matt O'Dell. Big welcome to all the freaks joining us here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.
15
00:02:18.620 --> 00:02:21.360
That clip was mayor Francis Suarez
16
00:02:21.820 --> 00:02:22.560
of Miami
17
00:02:23.075 --> 00:02:26.055
calling out treasury sec secretary Janet Yellen,
18
00:02:26.755 --> 00:02:31.495
for frankly being scared of better money. It appears that the Bitcoin deniers
19
00:02:32.010 --> 00:02:33.390
are transitioning to
20
00:02:33.690 --> 00:02:34.590
a new narrative
21
00:02:34.970 --> 00:02:38.190
where the only way they can protect their shitty money
22
00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:39.710
is to prevent
23
00:02:40.974 --> 00:02:41.474
Americans
24
00:02:41.775 --> 00:02:45.474
from having the choice and the freedom to choose which money they want to do,
25
00:02:45.855 --> 00:02:48.830
which is just really telling if if I'm gonna be frank about it.
26
00:02:49.470 --> 00:02:51.810
I'm excited that this week, we are joined
27
00:02:52.190 --> 00:02:54.690
by James O'Byrne at jamesob
28
00:02:55.390 --> 00:03:00.735
and our good friend Evan Kaludes who this is the first 3 Pete on the podcast joining us for the 3rd time.
29
00:03:01.114 --> 00:03:04.334
James is the lead maintainer of Coldcore.
30
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.180
He's also a Bitcoin core developer
31
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:11.300
and has experience in open source dev across the board.
32
00:03:12.765 --> 00:03:16.144
Evan, you guys know Evan well. He is the lead maintainer of Zeus,
33
00:03:16.845 --> 00:03:17.665
Lightning Wallet.
34
00:03:18.444 --> 00:03:21.584
They're both former New York BitCorners alongside me.
35
00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:26.900
This time last year or maybe a little bit earlier than this time last year, we were partying,
36
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:31.755
in New York City, and today, we are separated across the world.
37
00:03:32.455 --> 00:03:35.915
So it is very exciting to have them both back here,
38
00:03:36.215 --> 00:03:41.670
for today's show. Since Evan has been here before, let's start off with James. James, how's it going?
39
00:03:42.450 --> 00:03:45.990
40
00:03:46.755 --> 00:03:47.575
Evan, congratulations
41
00:03:47.875 --> 00:03:48.935
on the hat trick.
42
00:03:49.315 --> 00:03:50.694
It's a big deal.
43
00:03:51.155 --> 00:03:52.215
44
00:03:52.675 --> 00:03:57.200
Just glad to be sitting down with you. It's gonna be a fun one, Yeah, man. Absolutely. So let me,
45
00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:59.140
46
00:03:59.600 --> 00:04:00.340
the ceremonial
47
00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:03.860
opening of the India pale hard seltzer here.
48
00:04:04.795 --> 00:04:05.455
Get started.
49
00:04:07.275 --> 00:04:09.834
Man, I am I am just amazed that the,
50
00:04:10.635 --> 00:04:14.700
the interviewer there in that clip cites Janet Yellen as being,
51
00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:16.880
any sort of authority because
52
00:04:17.419 --> 00:04:19.919
if you look at her previous comments on,
53
00:04:20.825 --> 00:04:22.845
like, the housing crisis of 2007
54
00:04:23.865 --> 00:04:24.685
or the
55
00:04:25.225 --> 00:04:26.045
fact that
56
00:04:26.905 --> 00:04:37.980
the Fed's balance sheet roll off is gonna be like watching paint dry or, I think maybe a year or 2 ago, she said something along the lines of there'll never be another financial crisis again.
57
00:04:39.125 --> 00:04:42.905
It seems like Janet is her own contra indicator. So,
58
00:04:44.085 --> 00:04:49.620
if she's saying that that that Bitcoin's dangerous, then, I think it's safe to go the other direction.
59
00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:59.275
60
00:04:59.775 --> 00:05:02.375
I guess, they got into a fight with Vice, so now,
61
00:05:03.175 --> 00:05:05.035
they they have an Axios series.
62
00:05:05.650 --> 00:05:09.470
I mean, I thought it was interesting, the whole, like, little discourse back and forth
63
00:05:09.770 --> 00:05:19.745
about being scared. Like, he asked, Francis if he was scared, and then he he kinda, you know, he kinda made it seem like he was scared, and then Francis was like, are you scared? And then he was like, well, I don't live here.
64
00:05:20.525 --> 00:05:21.185
But, like,
65
00:05:21.645 --> 00:05:25.060
we've seen time and time again, and we will see with these Bitcoin deniers
66
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:35.145
that, they don't care if they'd live in the area where they want you to deny Bitcoin. You know? Right. They they didn't care if if if US users are actually using something for them to try and,
67
00:05:35.865 --> 00:05:38.764
stop people's freedom to choose or freedom of privacy. Right?
68
00:05:39.225 --> 00:05:40.925
69
00:05:42.870 --> 00:05:45.289
70
00:05:45.830 --> 00:05:56.795
71
00:05:57.175 --> 00:06:00.475
Fuck. Yes. A great topic today. I'm looking forward to
72
00:06:00.889 --> 00:06:01.850
diving into. But,
73
00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:07.310
it was a really pretty clip up front with the Miami mayor. I just love this attitude.
74
00:06:08.255 --> 00:06:17.670
You know, growth starts at the edge of your comfort zones, and, you know, a lot of people getting into Bitcoin right now are gonna learn that. So more the merrier.
75
00:06:18.210 --> 00:06:21.910
Just bring them on. There's nothing to fear, freaks. I mean, talking about citadels,
76
00:06:23.205 --> 00:06:26.185
77
00:06:27.525 --> 00:06:31.305
that we were doing the citadel workshops together with James there,
78
00:06:32.190 --> 00:06:33.250
in New York City
79
00:06:33.710 --> 00:06:35.330
in person, no masks.
80
00:06:36.270 --> 00:06:38.610
It's pretty crazy how time flies.
81
00:06:39.245 --> 00:06:43.425
82
00:06:44.125 --> 00:06:52.560
yeah. Yeah. I would have, cherished those events that much more if I had known it was gonna be, you know, a delay of at least a year before I got to hang with you guys again.
83
00:06:54.645 --> 00:06:55.145
84
00:06:55.764 --> 00:06:57.525
fear not. It won't be the last, so,
85
00:06:58.805 --> 00:07:02.505
we'll get back to in person chilling soon enough. I'm sure.
86
00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:03.800
87
00:07:04.340 --> 00:07:04.840
88
00:07:05.380 --> 00:07:06.600
Before we get started,
89
00:07:06.979 --> 00:07:11.884
I just did want to do a quick shout out to the Bitcoin 2021
90
00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:14.444
conference in Miami in June.
91
00:07:14.985 --> 00:07:19.164
The freaks that have been here in the past and are joining us through the podcast feed,
92
00:07:20.009 --> 00:07:24.110
are aware that I am trying to my best to help them throw a good party,
93
00:07:24.729 --> 00:07:27.630
in June. I, you know, I think Bitcoin will be pumping in price.
94
00:07:28.195 --> 00:07:39.300
They gave me my own unique code where I negotiated a better rate because I didn't want any kind I don't believe in, like, rufflings or anything. So I I just wanted all of it to go to the discount code. So they gave me 21%,
95
00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:39.919
and I
96
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.580
you freaks have just been demolishing this code. The code is humble, all caps.
97
00:07:45.225 --> 00:07:48.205
They are going to cut me off. They told me on Friday,
98
00:07:48.585 --> 00:08:03.550
they're cutting off my 21% discount. So if you are gonna do it, you should probably do it, before that. You know, or you can wait for number to go up because then the price will go down that way. And then one other thing I just wanted to add is this is broadcast via Twitch,
99
00:08:04.715 --> 00:08:06.095
YouTube, and Twitter.
100
00:08:06.555 --> 00:08:15.310
We have freeks joining us from all three of those things. It is important to realize that YouTube automatically cuts out the end of my show every week,
101
00:08:15.770 --> 00:08:22.345
because of copyright, and I kinda deserve that. It isn't cut off from Twitch. It isn't cut off from Twitter. If you go to sitaldispatch.com,
102
00:08:23.685 --> 00:08:32.960
I also have archives on Keybase and Telegram where you can download the full video file or the full audio file. There's also 2 podcast feeds. You can either listen to it,
103
00:08:33.580 --> 00:08:39.055
on the TFTC podcast feed or the the dedicated Citadel dispatch feed if you just search, Tales
104
00:08:41.055 --> 00:08:42.195
from the Crypt or Citadel dispatch on your podcast app of choice.
105
00:08:43.455 --> 00:08:47.475
106
00:08:47.910 --> 00:08:48.730
Bitcoin collateralized
107
00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:52.250
loan to pay for your, Bitcoin 2021 ticket?
108
00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:54.170
109
00:08:55.190 --> 00:08:57.975
110
00:08:59.235 --> 00:09:00.535
111
00:09:01.154 --> 00:09:03.175
I mean, not financial advice.
112
00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:10.480
I mean, I think that, you know, you should just spend Bitcoin within your means. I think people shouldn't be taking out leverage on Bitcoin. And on that topic,
113
00:09:11.195 --> 00:09:18.870
we do like to get technical in here, but let's be honest, a lot of the freaks, a lot of the listeners like talking about price. They like talking about number go up.
114
00:09:19.430 --> 00:09:26.810
If you're watching this live, you have our usual chart is being live streamed out to you. On the top is the evil empire coinbase.
115
00:09:27.190 --> 00:09:28.570
On the bottom is
116
00:09:30.625 --> 00:09:31.525
is is bisque,
117
00:09:32.145 --> 00:09:34.245
the proper no k y c,
118
00:09:34.865 --> 00:09:36.005
p to p exchange.
119
00:09:36.810 --> 00:09:44.750
So keep an eye on that as we go. But on that topic, James, in March, when everything was going crazy, you decided that you wanted to be a trader.
120
00:09:45.455 --> 00:09:51.395
Do you want to reflect on this for the freaks, and, you know, have you reformed in your ways? Do you think stacking is the way to go?
121
00:09:51.775 --> 00:10:00.060
Did should people try and time markets? You know? What what's your thoughts here? Yeah. I guess it's time for a, formalized public atonement
122
00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.100
123
00:10:03.795 --> 00:10:04.855
for my transgressions
124
00:10:05.235 --> 00:10:06.615
earlier in 2020.
125
00:10:08.435 --> 00:10:08.935
Basically
126
00:10:09.475 --> 00:10:09.975
I
127
00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:13.830
saw what was going on, I saw the pandemic coming,
128
00:10:14.290 --> 00:10:21.665
and, you know, I guess called it in the grand scheme of things relatively early. Like like pretty much anybody else who was kind of paying attention to the
129
00:10:21.965 --> 00:10:24.305
usual alternative sources on Twitter, I guess.
130
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.100
And, you know, had some early success
131
00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:30.340
like shorting corporate debt,
132
00:10:32.640 --> 00:10:34.075
had some success,
133
00:10:34.775 --> 00:10:38.714
going long Eurodollar futures, which is basically just a way of betting
134
00:10:39.015 --> 00:10:40.055
that interest rates,
135
00:10:40.455 --> 00:10:43.035
short term are gonna drop, you know, towards 0,
136
00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:50.330
which they did. So I was kind of emboldened by that stuff to, I don't know, trade,
137
00:10:50.935 --> 00:10:53.115
trade more. And I thought that basically,
138
00:10:54.375 --> 00:10:57.755
at that stage in the game, that Bitcoin was essentially just
139
00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.580
beta on the stock market, and
140
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.100
the stock market was seemingly obviously going down.
141
00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.015
And so I thought, oh, well, you know, I'll sell some Bitcoin and then
142
00:11:09.395 --> 00:11:10.455
scoop it when it,
143
00:11:10.915 --> 00:11:15.255
you know, hits some lower level and, you know, up up my Bitcoin holdings.
144
00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:18.750
And in the meantime, I was I was kind of, like,
145
00:11:19.130 --> 00:11:21.390
diversifying into gold, which everybody
146
00:11:21.850 --> 00:11:23.775
will laugh me for and rightfully so,
147
00:11:24.895 --> 00:11:25.955
because I basically
148
00:11:27.295 --> 00:11:30.275
it was, again, you know, it's one of these, like, disgusting
149
00:11:32.150 --> 00:11:38.650
decisions where you're, like, banking on the way that other people perceive the world. And I kinda thought, okay,
150
00:11:39.705 --> 00:11:43.325
You know, the markets are entering this calamitous state, and
151
00:11:44.905 --> 00:11:47.085
people are going to be rushing towards,
152
00:11:47.560 --> 00:11:49.420
you know, a Bitcoin equivalent,
153
00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:57.515
whether they know it or not. Some people are gonna, you know, ultimately risk towards Bitcoin. But but, basically, anybody over the age of, like, 55
154
00:11:57.895 --> 00:11:59.435
just doesn't seem to understand
155
00:11:59.975 --> 00:12:00.475
Bitcoin.
156
00:12:00.775 --> 00:12:04.795
I'm sure there are people out there, but but in any case, my my gut was basically that
157
00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:13.200
older people were gonna look at gold as a kind of safe haven asset. And so I was like, okay. Well, maybe I should own some of this, and
158
00:12:14.435 --> 00:12:19.255
that that in nominal terms wasn't a mistake. I did make a return on that, but
159
00:12:19.635 --> 00:12:21.015
definitely not nearly,
160
00:12:21.395 --> 00:12:23.450
what I would have made if I just left my,
161
00:12:24.810 --> 00:12:29.870
162
00:12:32.115 --> 00:12:35.815
163
00:12:36.355 --> 00:12:41.015
yeah. As as as as Sam was saying there, I used to write or I wrote a few issues of this
164
00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.660
this newsletter, Bearhouse, which is me just kinda talking about the markets and, like,
165
00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:50.060
you know, openly talking about how much money I was either losing or making.
166
00:12:51.505 --> 00:12:52.005
And,
167
00:12:52.465 --> 00:12:55.445
the final kind of installment of that was me
168
00:12:55.825 --> 00:13:04.220
having this come to Jesus moment where I was like, I don't believe in any of this bullshit aside from Bitcoin, so why am I screwing around?
169
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.585
And the price, I think, at that point was, like, $9,000.
170
00:13:09.125 --> 00:13:11.545
And so I had made some stupid sales
171
00:13:12.085 --> 00:13:13.225
early around $6,000.
172
00:13:13.685 --> 00:13:17.060
And so I basically just kinda like mark and called myself back into Bitcoin
173
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:22.500
both, you know, literally and spiritually because it was like, woah. What are you doing here, man?
174
00:13:23.905 --> 00:13:28.165
And I I chalk all that up honestly, and I here's here's, okay, here's, like, the big
175
00:13:28.545 --> 00:13:30.565
danger for for for Bitcoiners.
176
00:13:31.025 --> 00:13:32.405
I think a lot of us
177
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:35.360
are driven by novelty to a certain extent,
178
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:36.320
and,
179
00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:42.795
we get contrarian and we get bored. And I think that's kinda what happened to me is that I was like,
180
00:13:43.575 --> 00:13:50.279
you know, I basically, I've I've been absorbed in Bitcoin for the last, you know, 3 or 4 years professionally, personally,
181
00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:54.600
and, I think I just kinda started to fidget. And subsequently,
182
00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:56.680
you know, made some bad decisions,
183
00:13:58.005 --> 00:13:58.404
But,
184
00:13:58.964 --> 00:14:01.704
but, yeah, that was that was an experience for sure.
185
00:14:04.084 --> 00:14:04.985
186
00:14:05.990 --> 00:14:09.290
I remember when it was happening clear as day, I was like, oh, James.
187
00:14:10.230 --> 00:14:14.855
188
00:14:15.255 --> 00:14:28.560
189
00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:29.600
of,
190
00:14:31.154 --> 00:14:34.615
a video of cooking bear fat and eating bear meat and bear fat,
191
00:14:35.154 --> 00:14:36.935
and I alluded that it was you.
192
00:14:37.394 --> 00:14:49.095
I I think a key thing that you did, which I will commend you for, is that you you took the loss and you admitted your mistake and you fucking just bought back in. And at the time, it was like the difference between 6 $1,000 and $9,000
193
00:14:49.555 --> 00:14:56.375
Bitcoin. Mhmm. And I think a lot of people would be like, oh, I missed it on the 30% swing and wouldn't have the humility to come back in.
194
00:14:57.610 --> 00:15:14.710
195
00:15:15.170 --> 00:15:20.390
marginal amount. But I think, yeah, my rhetoric was maybe stronger at the time than it than it Very provocative.
196
00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:21.205
Certainly.
197
00:15:22.645 --> 00:15:24.265
And, again, that's kind of the contrarianism
198
00:15:24.645 --> 00:15:28.025
and the, you know, and the the boredom kicking in.
199
00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:34.300
200
00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.820
201
00:15:38.485 --> 00:15:45.385
you know, the the single piece of writing I've churned out that's that's probably gonna stand the test of time, which is Bitcoin for safety.
202
00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:53.300
I basically outlined exactly what was gonna happen and what did happen, and I didn't heed my own advice. So,
203
00:15:53.615 --> 00:15:55.555
like, the joke is on me because,
204
00:15:56.335 --> 00:15:59.375
it's it it was all in there and they printed hard. And,
205
00:16:00.175 --> 00:16:02.190
I basically just thought that the
206
00:16:02.510 --> 00:16:06.830
the transmission dynamics in the monetary system weren't going to sort of translate,
207
00:16:08.590 --> 00:16:10.345
you know, the Fed purchasing
208
00:16:11.045 --> 00:16:11.785
or purchasing
209
00:16:12.245 --> 00:16:12.905
bonds into
210
00:16:13.525 --> 00:16:30.585
a saving of the corporate debt market. But instead, what happened in actuality is the Fed opened a special purpose vehicle and they went out and started buying corporate debt hand over fist. And that's I think that's the thing that nobody really counted on, and is is almost certainly a violation of the Federal Reserve Act, but, you know, as if that whole thing.
211
00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:37.899
212
00:16:38.300 --> 00:16:46.185
the parts of that you detailed I mean, first of all, hats off to, you know, detailing pretty much, you know, all your moves like this online and on your blog.
213
00:16:46.645 --> 00:16:47.945
That was really cool of you.
214
00:16:48.485 --> 00:16:51.625
But I I was almost most interested by your tweet thread
215
00:16:52.520 --> 00:16:56.540
detailing your headaches with offloading your gold when you decide to sell it.
216
00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:02.545
217
00:17:04.445 --> 00:17:10.730
as as Bitcoin's price movement started and it was kinda it became clear to me that this year was gonna be an absolutely insane year.
218
00:17:11.269 --> 00:17:17.535
You know, I just had to dump the gold. And in the process of dumping the gold, the difficulty inherent in that
219
00:17:17.835 --> 00:17:22.895
was, like, the ultimate verification that that that is the right move because,
220
00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:27.440
so basically the way that it worked is it was, like, maybe a Wednesday,
221
00:17:27.820 --> 00:17:28.320
and
222
00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:31.679
I wanted to sell the gold. So I called up AppMex,
223
00:17:32.625 --> 00:17:33.605
spoke to some woman,
224
00:17:34.785 --> 00:17:38.625
225
00:17:40.010 --> 00:17:42.110
226
00:17:42.570 --> 00:17:44.029
They're one of the bigger ones, appmex.com.
227
00:17:44.889 --> 00:17:47.470
I don't I I don't have any affiliation with them, but
228
00:17:48.535 --> 00:17:51.915
I just happen to know that they they buy gold. And so,
229
00:17:53.175 --> 00:17:57.740
I'm sure, you know, you can do that locally, but I didn't really wanna futz around with that. So,
230
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:00.780
so I called them up and,
231
00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:05.100
talked to some saleswoman, you know, we spend like 30 minutes kinda
232
00:18:05.524 --> 00:18:13.365
doing this dance over, like, well, how much gold do I have, and, like, what kind of bars are they, and, you know, like, doing some price haggling. And,
233
00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:15.630
so then we finally,
234
00:18:16.090 --> 00:18:17.230
finalize on price.
235
00:18:17.690 --> 00:18:21.305
She has me sign some paperwork, I think, with my social on it.
236
00:18:22.425 --> 00:18:24.285
Then the next day, she sends me
237
00:18:24.825 --> 00:18:30.025
okay. So this is already over, like, 16 hours. Right? If if you were selling Bitcoin, you would be
238
00:18:31.090 --> 00:18:36.950
you'd have your your wire transfer, like, processing at this point. I'm just now signing paperwork.
239
00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:38.950
So,
240
00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:39.990
basically,
241
00:18:40.725 --> 00:18:45.145
if you sell a certain amount of gold, you have to split it into separate packages,
242
00:18:45.605 --> 00:18:53.059
and you have to double box it with double labeling, and so this woman sends me 2 shipping labels, which I print out into a total of 4 labels,
243
00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:55.559
double box everything, pack it up.
244
00:18:56.179 --> 00:19:00.695
You know, I have to, like, go out and get get packaging materials and stuff, and,
245
00:19:01.075 --> 00:19:08.260
all the while, I'm kinda sketched out by, like, the prospect of, you know, physically bringing this stuff into the UPS store and
246
00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:12.440
potentially handing it over. So I get it all packaged up. I go to the UPS store.
247
00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:23.815
I hand it over to the to the to the woman there and, walk out. And at that point, it's like, okay, the gold is has just sort of entered the ether, you know. It's
248
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.840
it it's in UPS's custody, and,
249
00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:29.320
I sure hope nothing happens to it because,
250
00:19:29.780 --> 00:19:31.435
ultimately, I'm gonna be the one
251
00:19:33.435 --> 00:19:38.255
with the loss, and, it'll be on me to go appeal to UPS or whatever insurance company to actually get reimbursed for that.
252
00:19:38.750 --> 00:19:39.250
So,
253
00:19:40.190 --> 00:19:44.370
finally, the the gold winds up at AppMex. They receive the delivery,
254
00:19:45.070 --> 00:19:52.434
the next the next week. I think it takes, like, 2 days for that to happen. But then they go, like, unpack the gold and inspect it and verify it.
255
00:19:53.934 --> 00:20:06.420
And then there was some other little miscellaneous, like, hiccup where, you know, I was told there's a problem with the order, but there wasn't actually problems. So long story short, like, then and then they, you know, dispatched the wire, like, a day later. So long story short, it was, like, 7 days.
256
00:20:06.855 --> 00:20:09.274
It took me 7 days to get paid for this gold
257
00:20:09.654 --> 00:20:10.475
that I unloaded.
258
00:20:11.414 --> 00:20:15.355
And the whole time, I'm just you know, my my jaw's on the floor, but I'm like, who the hell
259
00:20:15.730 --> 00:20:19.429
is exposing themselves to an asset where, like, this is what counts for liquidity?
260
00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:23.350
261
00:20:24.125 --> 00:20:24.625
completely
262
00:20:25.725 --> 00:20:27.985
bonkers, really. Like Yeah.
263
00:20:28.605 --> 00:20:33.265
264
00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:35.539
during the corona crisis.
265
00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:49.235
266
00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:57.050
Bitcoin for safety, which is just about basically the the counterparty risk inherent in in in gold just because the settlement
267
00:20:57.429 --> 00:20:58.490
process is so
268
00:20:58.790 --> 00:20:59.610
sort of infeasible.
269
00:21:00.054 --> 00:21:09.755
And because settlement is so difficult, you have, like, this big paper gold market where there's theoretically a lot of allocated gold sitting around in some vault, but that's pretty theoretical at this point. And,
270
00:21:10.120 --> 00:21:13.020
you know, it's hard for people to actually take delivery.
271
00:21:13.399 --> 00:21:16.779
You know, in certain cases, it's sort of impossible if you're in one of these ETFs,
272
00:21:17.934 --> 00:21:21.715
And and that just I mean, that allows people to play games with the price. And so
273
00:21:22.335 --> 00:21:25.235
you you don't really know how rehypothecated
274
00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:30.230
the physical gold market is. And that I mean, you know, how can you own something where
275
00:21:30.610 --> 00:21:31.909
the whole value is predicated
276
00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:36.125
on a scarce supply when you don't really know what the supply
277
00:21:38.025 --> 00:21:43.085
278
00:21:43.490 --> 00:21:47.970
And, and just the paper alone makes it right for manipulation and,
279
00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:49.269
you know,
280
00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:52.929
not just, the derivatives that could easily be,
281
00:21:53.525 --> 00:21:59.625
made from it, but, you know, even just knowing if the gold is actually where they say it is. There there's,
282
00:22:00.165 --> 00:22:07.770
283
00:22:08.390 --> 00:22:11.850
from aside from the profitability or whatever or the quality of the trade,
284
00:22:12.475 --> 00:22:18.575
of Bitcoin, I I got to this point after a few months of focusing on on markets and focusing on trading
285
00:22:19.090 --> 00:22:20.370
to realizing that there's,
286
00:22:20.930 --> 00:22:24.390
a kind of spiritual simplicity or fidelity to
287
00:22:24.770 --> 00:22:26.390
just holding Bitcoin because
288
00:22:27.135 --> 00:22:38.770
there are there are more interesting things to do than play casino or to to trade. I mean, you know, I guess it's one thing if you're, like, an applied mathematician and you're modeling some option strategy and you're actually being sort of creative.
289
00:22:40.350 --> 00:22:50.395
But I I just got to this point where I was kind of disgusted with how I was spending my time, and I was, like, I felt it was very consumptive to sit there and just watch markets all day.
290
00:22:51.335 --> 00:22:52.650
And I found that
291
00:22:53.050 --> 00:22:56.910
when your strategy is just buy Bitcoin and hold it until
292
00:22:57.450 --> 00:22:57.950
indefinitely,
293
00:22:58.650 --> 00:22:59.150
that
294
00:22:59.610 --> 00:23:03.784
that frees you up to to do much more interesting things, like
295
00:23:04.164 --> 00:23:07.910
like write code or or go out and make art, you know, or like,
296
00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:11.450
you know, put together a back to back boiler room on on,
297
00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:12.730
Citadel dispatch,
298
00:23:13.110 --> 00:23:14.650
which I think is coming.
299
00:23:16.095 --> 00:23:26.299
300
00:23:26.840 --> 00:23:27.340
Yes.
301
00:23:28.919 --> 00:23:36.605
Amen. But, yeah, we'll organize that for sure. But, yeah, I agree with your sentiments on trading. It's like it's I don't knock
302
00:23:37.145 --> 00:23:41.220
anyone who is actively doing it and making a living
303
00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:42.340
doing that,
304
00:23:42.800 --> 00:23:43.300
but
305
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.140
it's just that
306
00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:46.580
I have Bitcoin
307
00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:47.920
and my
308
00:23:49.055 --> 00:23:53.075
you know, I've been inundated enough to go with the dollar cost average strategy.
309
00:23:53.775 --> 00:23:55.235
Just I don't have to waste
310
00:23:55.779 --> 00:24:04.340
my time anymore looking at charts, looking at what's gonna go and and make a run next. Mhmm. So my strategy now is is proven, and,
311
00:24:05.455 --> 00:24:18.970
I also get to benefit by, you know, not having to put any thought into it anymore. It's just set, and now I get to forget it and and focus on, you know, my main means of, like, you know, making a living, and then that's programming. So
312
00:24:19.370 --> 00:24:19.870
Totally.
313
00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:24.835
314
00:24:25.295 --> 00:24:28.195
so that, like, the plumber doesn't have to go out and become
315
00:24:28.895 --> 00:24:29.395
macroeconomist
316
00:24:29.855 --> 00:24:31.555
by night just to preserve
317
00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:36.550
his value. You know? You can just work and save and focus on
318
00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:43.995
the, you know, the interesting things in life and not, like, financial engineering in a in a half hearted way.
319
00:24:44.775 --> 00:24:58.350
320
00:24:59.275 --> 00:25:03.215
just wanting to escape that rat race is why a lot of people,
321
00:25:03.595 --> 00:25:12.370
322
00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.415
people just it's it's weird to me, and and it's a thread that I've been
323
00:25:18.495 --> 00:25:19.555
going at recently because so yesterday, I had,
324
00:25:20.735 --> 00:25:28.930
you know, I said on the Peter McCormick podcast, which is something I've said many times that I expect Monero to trend to 0 in terms of Bitcoin long term.
325
00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:32.575
And so I had the Monero stand come at me and they told me,
326
00:25:33.294 --> 00:25:46.080
that I don't care about privacy because I said that. But if you look at a chart, it literally is trending to 0 long term in Bitcoin. And what they don't realize is I believe this for every single fucking asset on this planet.
327
00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:49.919
And and it's amazing to me that for some people,
328
00:25:50.524 --> 00:26:00.150
they so I posted the e chart last night, then I went and I posted Apple, then I posted Facebook, then I posted b n y melon because I just added Bitcoin. I just thought it was
329
00:26:00.530 --> 00:26:00.770
funny.
330
00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:05.750
And who's the other? I posted Amazon, all trending to 0. Literally, if you go to strategy.com,
331
00:26:06.210 --> 00:26:08.550
which is, Michael Sailor's website,
332
00:26:09.024 --> 00:26:10.725
ridiculous domain holder,
333
00:26:12.065 --> 00:26:15.284
literally every single s and p company in the s and p 500
334
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:20.140
has worse returns than Bitcoin. If you price the returns in Bitcoin, they're getting clobbered.
335
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:24.460
It's interesting to me how some people
336
00:26:25.655 --> 00:26:32.315
understand that concept, can can get along on that concept, but then when I tell them it's designed Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, I lose them.
337
00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:42.404
But and then other people, they're like, trend to 0 makes no sense because they can't understand the concept that something that trends to 0 doesn't mean it's gonna actually hit 0.
338
00:26:43.024 --> 00:26:52.270
But I say Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. They're like, oh, yeah. I agree. Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Well, if Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, then everything that it's priced in is gonna fucking trend to 0 long term.
339
00:26:52.650 --> 00:26:53.710
340
00:26:54.090 --> 00:27:01.985
341
00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:08.919
no matter what. Long term, it's designed to pump forever. It's designed to pump forever because look. Okay. So so
342
00:27:09.635 --> 00:27:16.934
343
00:27:17.350 --> 00:27:18.170
it's divisible,
344
00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:19.290
it's fungible.
345
00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:21.130
It has all the properties
346
00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:24.090
of sort of the perfect monetary
347
00:27:24.470 --> 00:27:24.970
good.
348
00:27:25.315 --> 00:27:31.575
And so, you know, I think it's just a natural consequence that eventually everything's gonna be priced in Bitcoin, basically.
349
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:40.180
You know, the question is how long that takes and whether there are fits and starts and delays and stuff like that. But no. Yeah. Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.
350
00:27:41.535 --> 00:27:45.395
I think, you know, sometimes it's it's it's funny because, like, I have grown
351
00:27:46.015 --> 00:27:48.755
a huge respect for some of the more, like, trolly,
352
00:27:49.850 --> 00:27:52.430
outrageous rhetoric, like, have fun staying poor
353
00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:53.390
because,
354
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:57.950
for a while, I fought it, you know, as as being sort of unsophisticated
355
00:27:58.570 --> 00:27:59.065
or
356
00:27:59.544 --> 00:28:00.044
unnuanced.
357
00:28:00.985 --> 00:28:05.245
But after a while, you know, you just realize, like, these things are our truths, and
358
00:28:06.184 --> 00:28:06.684
they
359
00:28:06.985 --> 00:28:07.725
they sometimes
360
00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:19.955
repel people who are, like, skeptical, but it's just the damn truth. I mean, yeah, Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, like, that's, you know if you sit there and think about it for a little while, that that is
361
00:28:20.335 --> 00:28:25.715
one phrasing of the conclusion that you get out. I mean, I use the word pump to be
362
00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:31.940
363
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:33.059
deflationary
364
00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:33.845
currency
365
00:28:34.245 --> 00:28:37.225
is going to increase in purchasing power indefinitely,
366
00:28:38.325 --> 00:28:44.240
but that just does not have the kind of ring to it. Right. Right. Right. No. Yeah. You're absolutely right.
367
00:28:46.380 --> 00:29:01.670
So that's awesome. Like, a like, a a second priority of the show is just getting prominent Bitcoiners to all be on the record that they think Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. So we can Check off. No. We have James now. He's the first first Bitcoin core developer on the record to agree with that that that
368
00:29:02.230 --> 00:29:07.670
369
00:29:08.550 --> 00:29:13.294
I feel like I I have, like, mid tier shit posting on Twitter, and so I try and,
370
00:29:14.015 --> 00:29:14.755
you know,
371
00:29:15.375 --> 00:29:18.195
maintain a semblance of credibility at least in the GitHub repos.
372
00:29:20.419 --> 00:29:22.919
373
00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:24.279
that are
374
00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:26.200
James specific,
375
00:29:27.585 --> 00:29:29.365
or that are are, you know,
376
00:29:29.825 --> 00:29:37.610
things that I would really love to discuss with James. There's something that I have to discuss personally, which is Bottlepay, a company that I am advising.
377
00:29:38.630 --> 00:29:40.410
It came out today that
378
00:29:40.710 --> 00:29:42.490
they are allegedly
379
00:29:44.625 --> 00:29:46.164
flagging coin joined deposits
380
00:29:46.945 --> 00:29:49.105
and sending back the user funds,
381
00:29:49.505 --> 00:29:50.005
if,
382
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:55.100
you know, those deposits when those deposits get flagged, they send back the user's Bitcoin.
383
00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:58.245
I've, you know,
384
00:29:58.725 --> 00:30:03.305
I've I pride myself in my transparency, so, obviously, I'm here talking about it.
385
00:30:03.765 --> 00:30:11.200
I should have advised harder is what BGT team says. Yes. That is my goal. If you think I'm not continuing to hard advise,
386
00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:12.960
you'd be mistaken.
387
00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.240
There's been a lot of discussion today.
388
00:30:16.625 --> 00:30:24.225
They are supposedly going to release a public statement. You know, I was pressured them to get it out quicker. I don't even know what's going on right now because I'm streaming.
389
00:30:24.545 --> 00:30:26.325
Hopefully, they will have it out soon.
390
00:30:28.210 --> 00:30:35.670
Really, I'm curious, but I'd like to start off with both of your comments since you are unbiased here, and, we'll take it from there.
391
00:30:36.615 --> 00:30:38.794
392
00:30:40.294 --> 00:30:42.075
Yeah. I mean, it's it's
393
00:30:42.855 --> 00:30:44.235
disappointing for sure.
394
00:30:45.110 --> 00:30:55.185
You know, you never wanna see someone be denied from using a Bitcoin service just because they wanted the privacy in doing a coin join or, you know, whatever other method.
395
00:30:56.365 --> 00:31:01.585
But, you know, it's it's a tricky territory because, obviously, if bottle pay themselves,
396
00:31:02.180 --> 00:31:04.360
you know, had a say in the manner that
397
00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:06.200
they wouldn't, you know,
398
00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:11.640
the back they'll stop CoinJoin users from depositing onto their service.
399
00:31:12.085 --> 00:31:13.365
They sort of have to play the
400
00:31:14.805 --> 00:31:16.665
they gotta play the game,
401
00:31:17.765 --> 00:31:22.490
you know, in in the arena that that they're working. It's a fully KYC service. Right?
402
00:31:22.870 --> 00:31:30.684
And, you know, it's all UK only, but from what I experienced with the original product and what I've heard about the new one, it seems to be a phenomenal,
403
00:31:31.384 --> 00:31:31.884
experience.
404
00:31:33.065 --> 00:31:38.044
But, you know, there's some realities in the world that we live in if you wanna operate in a certain manner.
405
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:40.780
You just gotta play the rules of the game, unfortunately.
406
00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:48.925
Is it always gonna be like that? No. And we have a lot of work to do in ensuring that gets changed.
407
00:31:50.505 --> 00:31:52.445
But, you know, that's just not
408
00:31:52.985 --> 00:31:56.765
the rules of the game, the the laws that they're in right now.
409
00:31:58.080 --> 00:31:59.540
It's it's not how they're in.
410
00:32:01.360 --> 00:32:02.980
411
00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:06.885
That's a real shame, and I'm sure that the people who started that company,
412
00:32:07.745 --> 00:32:08.885
do not like this.
413
00:32:09.345 --> 00:32:11.125
I mean, I can't speak for them, obviously.
414
00:32:11.985 --> 00:32:15.830
But I can imagine that if you start a company like Bottlepay that you'd be very happy about
415
00:32:16.610 --> 00:32:18.549
locking out CoinJoin users.
416
00:32:20.049 --> 00:32:23.190
So, you know, I guess, right, they have 2 options. They can
417
00:32:23.885 --> 00:32:26.705
presumably either stop operating, which
418
00:32:27.885 --> 00:32:29.105
hurts, you know,
419
00:32:29.645 --> 00:32:30.865
their their their customers
420
00:32:32.290 --> 00:32:33.490
in a real way,
421
00:32:34.370 --> 00:32:36.790
or they can operate with this this constraint.
422
00:32:37.490 --> 00:32:44.985
And that's a little scary because it kinda sets, you know I don't know about setting a precedent, but it certainly is a testament to this idea that,
423
00:32:45.845 --> 00:32:46.825
now, you know,
424
00:32:47.125 --> 00:32:47.945
coin joint
425
00:32:49.080 --> 00:32:51.100
coins are not as fungible
426
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:52.380
as Bitcoins.
427
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:54.460
So
428
00:32:55.080 --> 00:32:56.700
429
00:32:57.595 --> 00:32:59.135
430
00:32:59.515 --> 00:33:10.110
well, like, in a literal sense, in the immediate term, if you're a bottle pay user, you know, and you've coin joined, then then it does make a difference. I think there's a lot of prospects long term for kind of,
431
00:33:11.370 --> 00:33:20.115
doing en masse obfuscation that that, you know, would result in the sort of redemption of the purchasing power of those coins on bottle pay.
432
00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:24.730
So I I don't know. It's a it's a real shame to hear about stuff like that,
433
00:33:25.030 --> 00:33:29.690
and you hope that there are some pretty obvious workarounds that people can use.
434
00:33:31.034 --> 00:33:33.755
435
00:33:34.315 --> 00:33:36.894
Appreciate both of your comments. I I cosigned
436
00:33:37.355 --> 00:33:39.294
what both of you said. Actually, I probably,
437
00:33:40.360 --> 00:33:47.260
I think you guys pussy footed a little bit too much, which is ironic because I was hoping you guys would go harder since I am, you know, actually,
438
00:33:48.265 --> 00:33:50.505
you know, advising them. But,
439
00:33:51.785 --> 00:33:58.440
I I I think first of all, number one thing I wanna state here is that every single sat I hold,
440
00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:00.120
has a coin joint history.
441
00:34:01.140 --> 00:34:02.679
I believe that,
442
00:34:03.645 --> 00:34:04.145
Bitcoin
443
00:34:04.924 --> 00:34:10.065
I I I believe that that taint does exist, but it exists for non coin joined,
444
00:34:10.770 --> 00:34:14.470
Bitcoin. So I think that the only Bitcoin that doesn't have any taint,
445
00:34:16.210 --> 00:34:21.505
it is, you know, the the only truly fungible Bitcoin is Bitcoin that has been coin joined.
446
00:34:21.805 --> 00:34:26.225
And I hold only coin joined Bitcoin. So I do stand with anyone who,
447
00:34:27.005 --> 00:34:28.625
might have concerns about,
448
00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:35.040
being able to deposit it where they wanna deposit it, send it to where they wanna send it. I'm in the same boat as you.
449
00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:41.765
Second of all, I have no intention of ever depositing those coins into a KYC service to begin with.
450
00:34:42.625 --> 00:34:49.350
I think KYC is the illicit activity. I understand that companies need to comply with regulations, owners' regulations.
451
00:34:49.970 --> 00:34:56.455
I like to see them push back on it. I think bottle pay is the type of company that will push back on it, but you have to realize they are a start up.
452
00:34:57.235 --> 00:35:04.910
They are just, you know, a very new company who just recently gotten their licenses and whatnot, and licenses in the in in the UK are a lot worse.
453
00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:08.270
So it's important to keep that in mind.
454
00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:13.935
I think that the only carve out I have for KYC services are an on ramp.
455
00:35:14.395 --> 00:35:18.815
And in that situation or or an off ramp if you're talking about exiting shitty money,
456
00:35:19.279 --> 00:35:30.695
and and and and that concern, the way I look at it is is if you have your Fiat paycheck that has, you know, your KYC Fiat paycheck and your KYC Fiat bank account, then you can use the KYC service
457
00:35:31.075 --> 00:35:31.734
to go,
458
00:35:32.355 --> 00:35:34.295
into Bitcoin and then go into
459
00:35:34.595 --> 00:35:37.895
CoinJoin after that, to try and reclaim some forward privacy.
460
00:35:38.930 --> 00:35:39.750
So I think
461
00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:44.390
in this case, it was a deposit, not a withdrawal. I think there should be a distinction there.
462
00:35:45.170 --> 00:35:53.095
I think, it's more malicious if if if flagging is happening on withdrawals, if accounts get closed based on withdrawal history.
463
00:35:54.994 --> 00:35:59.450
You know, and it's interesting enough, you know, one of the newest services, Swan,
464
00:36:00.390 --> 00:36:03.770
doesn't even allow deposits. They're withdrawal only.
465
00:36:04.434 --> 00:36:07.174
And maybe that is a cleaner way for people to handle it.
466
00:36:07.714 --> 00:36:11.335
Another thing I'd say is I do appreciate that they just returned it right away
467
00:36:11.990 --> 00:36:15.450
really promptly. They didn't close the account, which I think is a nice,
468
00:36:15.910 --> 00:36:25.365
you know, if for what it is, that that is, like, the best case scenario that you could ask for. And then last but not least, it is kind of interesting. They do accept lightning deposits.
469
00:36:25.745 --> 00:36:30.619
So it's interesting how that is gonna start factoring into these kind of things, like, whether they're, you know,
470
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:31.579
they're allegedly
471
00:36:32.680 --> 00:36:37.579
and I'm really operating on mostly public information, to be honest, is is is their their
472
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:39.259
chain analysis tool,
473
00:36:39.785 --> 00:36:41.245
their chain surveillance tool
474
00:36:41.705 --> 00:36:49.165
says something's risky and they just return the funds. But it can't do that for lightning, so it's gonna be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out. Mhmm.
475
00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:51.310
476
00:36:51.690 --> 00:36:52.590
Do you think
477
00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:55.390
do you think there's any possibility
478
00:36:55.850 --> 00:36:56.670
of KYC
479
00:36:57.130 --> 00:36:59.150
as we know it right now being abolished
480
00:36:59.835 --> 00:37:00.975
before hyper Bitcoinization?
481
00:37:03.195 --> 00:37:03.695
482
00:37:05.115 --> 00:37:07.615
483
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.860
you know, we're not gonna hit Hyper Bitcoinization
484
00:37:13.120 --> 00:37:16.180
without services that can onboard, you know,
485
00:37:16.515 --> 00:37:18.535
100 of 1,000, millions of users
486
00:37:19.234 --> 00:37:21.095
in the form of, like, a bottle pay.
487
00:37:21.795 --> 00:37:24.535
And, in the meantime, the users that
488
00:37:24.950 --> 00:37:30.490
do use these centralized services, they're more than likely gonna be having to deal with these KYC regulations.
489
00:37:31.805 --> 00:37:32.305
So,
490
00:37:32.605 --> 00:37:37.105
you know, it's it's really, like, a tough scenario. Like, you obviously
491
00:37:37.405 --> 00:37:39.185
don't want a bottle pay,
492
00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:49.100
to be having to deal with all this stuff. Like, this news isn't good news. Right? But at the same time, you gotta understand that it's gonna be services like this
493
00:37:49.464 --> 00:37:52.765
that are gonna help us get across the finish line and bring Bitcoin
494
00:37:53.385 --> 00:37:54.925
to, you know, the masks.
495
00:37:55.545 --> 00:38:00.070
So, you know, there's some big dilemmas in in that that we're gonna have
496
00:38:00.610 --> 00:38:01.910
to come to terms with
497
00:38:02.370 --> 00:38:06.795
as this thing grows and becomes more popular and we get more pushback from
498
00:38:07.415 --> 00:38:08.635
regulators in the state.
499
00:38:09.295 --> 00:38:09.795
Mhmm.
500
00:38:10.455 --> 00:38:10.955
Mhmm.
501
00:38:11.415 --> 00:38:14.375
502
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:17.940
so I've been talking about this on on RHR a lot.
503
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.495
You know, Randy McMillan said 2 k markup on bisque right now.
504
00:38:22.895 --> 00:38:23.795
Few few
505
00:38:24.255 --> 00:38:27.475
know, but on Citadel dispatch, like, 3 weeks before
506
00:38:27.775 --> 00:38:34.010
before we hit 50k, it hit 50k on Citadel dispatch live on bisque, just because of the lack of liquidity.
507
00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:49.474
508
00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:54.940
509
00:38:55.240 --> 00:38:55.740
is
510
00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:57.020
is that
511
00:38:59.345 --> 00:39:02.245
I think that there's gonna be an intermediate period
512
00:39:02.945 --> 00:39:03.445
where
513
00:39:04.385 --> 00:39:10.030
the KYC gets so bad that it essentially results in a situation where you can't withdraw, period.
514
00:39:11.450 --> 00:39:15.630
You know, like, maybe, like, a few people can withdraw, but they'll make it so fucking difficult,
515
00:39:16.555 --> 00:39:21.855
that in practice, it's like if you go through a regulated service, you just can't even really take self custody.
516
00:39:23.515 --> 00:39:36.234
Gotcha. Are you guys worried about like, do you guys see that as well? Do you see, like, a, like, a 3 year period, 5 year period, like, the growing pains period where where the yellings of the world, like, extra freak out, and they just,
517
00:39:37.255 --> 00:39:42.470
you know, they they just they just pull the plug and and basically make it so that that self custody,
518
00:39:43.170 --> 00:39:44.710
you know, is is is
519
00:39:45.089 --> 00:39:49.829
is impossible to do through a regulated service or impractical to do through a regulated service.
520
00:39:50.245 --> 00:39:53.465
521
00:39:53.765 --> 00:39:57.545
absolutely have to account for that or some other, you know, 6102
522
00:39:57.925 --> 00:39:58.425
adjacent
523
00:39:59.010 --> 00:39:59.510
event.
524
00:40:00.050 --> 00:40:04.390
But the thing that kinda eases my mind a little bit there is that
525
00:40:04.850 --> 00:40:05.910
it just seems like
526
00:40:07.225 --> 00:40:10.205
for the government to kinda unilaterally do something like that,
527
00:40:10.905 --> 00:40:16.445
the mechanisms are just, I think, too complicated and the bureaucracies are are too slow.
528
00:40:17.339 --> 00:40:20.320
And, you know, Bitcoin has a lot of friends at this point in government,
529
00:40:20.859 --> 00:40:22.640
in organizations like the SEC.
530
00:40:23.420 --> 00:40:23.920
So
531
00:40:24.220 --> 00:40:25.599
I think even if
532
00:40:26.244 --> 00:40:32.185
if Yellen Treasuries are wanted to do something like that, I think there is a far cry between
533
00:40:32.645 --> 00:40:36.210
that desire and the actualization of that through
534
00:40:36.670 --> 00:40:37.810
the means of the government,
535
00:40:38.590 --> 00:40:43.635
because it is a bureaucracy and because there are parts of it that are pro Bitcoin. So,
536
00:40:44.335 --> 00:40:46.675
and because it's just such a blatant infringement
537
00:40:46.975 --> 00:40:49.075
of American freedom. So,
538
00:40:50.390 --> 00:40:57.450
on the one hand, like, I I I wanna account for the possibility there and and be ready to weather it, but on the other hand, you know
539
00:40:57.910 --> 00:40:58.410
540
00:40:58.870 --> 00:40:59.370
James
541
00:40:59.775 --> 00:41:02.355
alternatively, James, last week, the SEC
542
00:41:02.895 --> 00:41:08.595
just unilaterally decided that Americans couldn't trade 15 stocks. So how do you circle that square?
543
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:13.940
544
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.540
545
00:41:17.885 --> 00:41:23.184
546
00:41:23.565 --> 00:41:32.130
547
00:41:32.485 --> 00:41:39.225
I missed that. I've been completely out of the They said they have the right to do that for up to 10 days without any kind of explanation. They said
548
00:41:39.685 --> 00:41:40.985
irrational social media
549
00:41:43.170 --> 00:41:49.110
550
00:41:49.954 --> 00:41:51.895
you know, mechanical reassurance
551
00:41:52.275 --> 00:42:01.070
point, the question there is that were the was there a law on the books that the that that gave the SEC that permission explicitly, or was that just something that they sort of decided
552
00:42:01.370 --> 00:42:03.530
was gonna go? I don't know the answer to that. But,
553
00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:05.230
you know,
554
00:42:05.555 --> 00:42:09.495
if if there were some contingency in the law that allowed them to do that for, you know,
555
00:42:10.035 --> 00:42:10.535
securities,
556
00:42:11.315 --> 00:42:18.380
maybe that's one thing versus if they just kinda decided to do it, because I I think I think, you know, anything with Bitcoin,
557
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:20.700
which I guess is regulated by the CFTC
558
00:42:21.275 --> 00:42:25.535
more or less and is a commodity by the way, the the CFTC is a a much cooler
559
00:42:25.914 --> 00:42:28.815
territory by in my mind than than the SEC. But,
560
00:42:30.140 --> 00:42:35.120
but, yeah, I I it's I don't know the specifics of that, so it's hard for me to map that onto Bitcoin.
561
00:42:37.984 --> 00:42:39.525
562
00:42:41.025 --> 00:42:49.559
563
00:42:50.260 --> 00:42:58.425
wherever they can really. And, you know, the the politicians that are beholden to the special interest that really would,
564
00:42:59.445 --> 00:43:02.025
stand to lose a lot with the proliferation of Bitcoin,
565
00:43:02.830 --> 00:43:04.130
They're looking at,
566
00:43:04.430 --> 00:43:05.810
you know, not
567
00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:13.335
seeing that a ban outright is probably not practical. They're definitely looking at trying to throw as many regulations
568
00:43:13.795 --> 00:43:14.775
on this thing
569
00:43:15.714 --> 00:43:18.454
as possible to help stifle its growth.
570
00:43:19.635 --> 00:43:21.015
But at the same time,
571
00:43:22.340 --> 00:43:24.120
you know, these are battles
572
00:43:24.980 --> 00:43:27.000
that, you know, are in front of us.
573
00:43:27.620 --> 00:43:29.480
Their outcomes are not settled,
574
00:43:30.095 --> 00:43:39.930
and, you know, it's gonna be up to each and every one of us to try to push things in the direction we want things to go to. Listen. It's it's not gonna be easy,
575
00:43:40.470 --> 00:43:45.369
but every passing day that we hear a new senator or house of representatives
576
00:43:45.670 --> 00:43:46.170
member,
577
00:43:46.895 --> 00:43:49.714
say they like Bitcoin or even cryptocurrency
578
00:43:50.095 --> 00:43:56.850
or or hold it, every time one of these publicly traded companies say that they're adding Bitcoin to the reserves,
579
00:43:57.710 --> 00:44:02.690
things, you know, had a little more in our direction, and and we have a little bit more hope.
580
00:44:03.265 --> 00:44:04.085
So after,
581
00:44:04.465 --> 00:44:15.109
you know, seeing what's transpired this year with all the treasuries and the support we've gotten, I'm definitely much more optimistic than last year. But we all still need to be,
582
00:44:15.890 --> 00:44:17.589
you know, just prepared for
583
00:44:18.210 --> 00:44:19.589
a huge, huge fight.
584
00:44:20.050 --> 00:44:24.985
585
00:44:25.525 --> 00:44:29.145
It's one of the reasons why I always stack Sats is because
586
00:44:29.450 --> 00:44:53.920
I thought to myself, I go, if I try and time the market and I sell, maybe I can time I actually, you know, wasn't that humble. I was, like, I could totally time the market. I'm gonna sell the top and buy the bottom, but what happens if when the bottom comes, I can't get back in. Right? And this was a fear that I always had, and and and what I look at is I think it doesn't have to be an explicit law, and you see this with bottle pay. Right? Is is these companies
587
00:44:54.460 --> 00:45:07.060
are trying to limit their liability and their risk, and and and we live in this litigious society. And this is what we saw with the lockdowns. Right? Is that even before you had laws in place that said that people had to close their businesses,
588
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:30.925
those businesses couldn't get insurance coverage, and they were afraid they were gonna get sued to fucking kingdom come if their employees got sick. Yep. So you end up in this heavily litigious society, and if if there's overtures being made that people need to clamp down on self custody, a lot of exchanges and services and on ramps or exit ramps, whatever you wanna call them, are going to just cut off. They're just gonna cut off access just to protect themselves.
589
00:45:31.625 --> 00:45:33.565
But, besides that point,
590
00:45:34.185 --> 00:45:42.109
James, I got the I got the screenshot for you here. The SEC suspends trading multiple issuers based on social media and trading activity.
591
00:45:42.410 --> 00:45:56.850
Yeah. That's wild, man. I hadn't seen that. That's fucking crazy. Like, it's it's the writing's on the wall for people that these so called free markets aren't really free markets, and the only free market that's available is Bitcoin. And if you think that they they can't do this on Coinbase Pro,
592
00:45:57.550 --> 00:46:00.530
I mean, you're smoking the good shit, and I'd like to have some of that.
593
00:46:02.045 --> 00:46:04.065
594
00:46:04.445 --> 00:46:06.625
There's another company worth shouting out,
595
00:46:07.645 --> 00:46:08.145
CardPoints,
596
00:46:09.005 --> 00:46:09.665
which is
597
00:46:10.460 --> 00:46:12.640
basically another kind of on ramp.
598
00:46:13.180 --> 00:46:16.240
It's it's like a gift card exchange that's kinda booting up.
599
00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:20.000
The guys who run that are are really, really, really solid Bitcoiners.
600
00:46:20.525 --> 00:46:28.625
So maybe, you know, this this is great for bidirectional liquidity, but if you're looking just to buy some Bitcoin, that's another good option. But they have KYC. Right?
601
00:46:29.630 --> 00:46:32.130
Oh, I don't know about that. I didn't think so.
602
00:46:32.750 --> 00:46:38.930
603
00:46:40.925 --> 00:46:43.425
locally. I mean, at the end of the day, like, unfortunately,
604
00:46:43.805 --> 00:46:44.785
let's be honest,
605
00:46:45.725 --> 00:46:47.345
a lot of this is gonna be,
606
00:46:47.650 --> 00:46:54.150
especially in this is, like, dark in between period, a lot of it's gonna be, like, kind of, you know, like a relationship with the weed dealer.
607
00:46:54.930 --> 00:46:57.110
You know, it's gonna be something that just
608
00:46:58.275 --> 00:47:06.615
you're you're gonna have to, like, go out and seek, and it might not necessarily be that difficult, but it is definitely gonna be more difficult than downloading,
609
00:47:07.170 --> 00:47:11.270
you know, a sexy UX app on the App Store. Right? Yeah. Yep.
610
00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:14.150
611
00:47:14.585 --> 00:47:16.845
it's gonna be different in different jurisdictions,
612
00:47:17.865 --> 00:47:23.644
but, you know, it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility of it happen in the places we live. So,
613
00:47:24.049 --> 00:47:25.990
you know, you gotta be prepared out there.
614
00:47:26.369 --> 00:47:31.029
615
00:47:32.365 --> 00:47:33.105
you know,
616
00:47:33.405 --> 00:47:34.625
was was kind of like,
617
00:47:37.005 --> 00:47:38.945
I I I don't I don't know. Like,
618
00:47:39.490 --> 00:47:47.030
the like, almost like a B cash or logic. I I saw it as, like, a utility token, and I saw this idea that you could you could send Bitcoin to,
619
00:47:47.725 --> 00:47:58.299
someone in, like, Hungary or something or someone in Turkey, and then they can just immediately go to the Bitcoin ATM and get, like, Turkish lira out or euros or whatever. Mhmm.
620
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.380
And and and it was a way to basically transfer cash across borders.
621
00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:05.099
And then, of course, what happened was all the ATMs,
622
00:48:06.745 --> 00:48:17.309
had to they they started getting all these KYC requirements if they were doing if they were gonna feed out cash. Like, sometimes they don't have hard KYC if you're buying Bitcoin, but they do on the opposite side.
623
00:48:17.690 --> 00:48:29.135
And it was funny because it was basically the education experience of why Bitcoin exists in the first place is because all of these ATMs are are run by centralized third parties. And if you have a centralized third party, they're gonna get squeezed. They're gonna be scared,
624
00:48:29.915 --> 00:48:35.630
and and get sent to jail, so so they're gonna have to comply. And the whole reason that didn't happen
625
00:48:36.170 --> 00:48:38.349
and it hasn't happened yet to this day
626
00:48:38.890 --> 00:48:44.735
is why Bitcoin has value in the first place. And it might happen the future, but the important thing is that the actual network,
627
00:48:45.515 --> 00:48:46.015
token,
628
00:48:46.955 --> 00:48:52.560
the bearer asset that we have, this digital bearer asset, doesn't have a centralized third party that can that can be squeezed,
629
00:48:53.100 --> 00:48:54.720
is is super fucking important.
630
00:48:55.420 --> 00:48:57.820
Before we move to the next topic, I just you know, I
631
00:48:59.385 --> 00:49:04.125
sometimes I have been in this space, you know, been publicly talking about Bitcoin,
632
00:49:05.465 --> 00:49:06.925
for probably too long,
633
00:49:07.510 --> 00:49:13.050
and I just assume that all the freaks are aware of CoinJoin and and my usual CoinJoin shill.
634
00:49:13.590 --> 00:49:16.570
I I I think it's important for people to realize that CoinJoin
635
00:49:17.915 --> 00:49:18.415
is
636
00:49:18.875 --> 00:49:24.895
is a Bitcoin it's just a Bitcoin send. It's just a it's a it's a Bitcoin transaction where you're sending Bitcoin
637
00:49:25.590 --> 00:49:33.290
in a in a self custody way, in a non custodial way. You're you're you're sending Bitcoin with with best practices, privacy best practices,
638
00:49:34.174 --> 00:49:42.035
being implemented at the same exact time. This is wholly different than this idea of mixing or where where you're you're sending into a custodial
639
00:49:42.710 --> 00:49:44.890
wallet and they're sending you someone else's Bitcoin.
640
00:49:45.590 --> 00:49:49.690
With with with CoinJoin, it it it the equivalent would be something like
641
00:49:50.230 --> 00:50:02.315
5 people have gold coins and you all take your gold coins, you melt down the gold coins, and you create 5 new gold coins would be like what a what a coin joint transaction would look like if if gold wasn't a shit coin.
642
00:50:03.710 --> 00:50:10.130
The I I think it's important for people to realize this distinction, this idea that that that we would inherently
643
00:50:11.105 --> 00:50:12.565
assume criminal activity
644
00:50:13.025 --> 00:50:16.085
based on using Bitcoin in a in a way that
645
00:50:16.945 --> 00:50:18.805
that uses privacy best practices,
646
00:50:20.170 --> 00:50:24.350
is is kind of crazy to me, and I think it needs to be pushed back on hard.
647
00:50:24.970 --> 00:50:29.045
This idea, like, don't use, like, terms like washing and laundering
648
00:50:29.345 --> 00:50:33.045
and Right. These are terms used by the the oppressor to to
649
00:50:33.585 --> 00:50:35.285
insinuate criminal activity.
650
00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:44.390
Privacy itself is not a crime. There's nothing illegal about privacy in America. This idea that that that we're just going to
651
00:50:45.905 --> 00:50:55.510
insinuate that people that are seeking privacy or criminal elements is a ridiculous concept. It's a concept that needs to be pushed back against. It's a concept that's against freedom. And this idea
652
00:50:56.130 --> 00:51:00.150
that just basic financial privacy, wanting to have basic financial privacy,
653
00:51:01.250 --> 00:51:05.825
should not be something that the average person wants that, like, you need to be like James Bond
654
00:51:06.204 --> 00:51:14.050
or fucking Jason Bourne, and and you have to, like, delete your life and be like a crazy, like, secret agent man to have any kind of basic privacy
655
00:51:14.510 --> 00:51:17.490
is, like, an absolute cuck mentality. It's a state mentality,
656
00:51:18.085 --> 00:51:29.930
and it's absolutely ridiculous. Like, we shouldn't have to you shouldn't have to explain to someone why you don't want your employer to know what you bought at the bodega, and you don't want the bodega owner to know how much your employer paid you.
657
00:51:31.829 --> 00:51:32.970
658
00:51:35.065 --> 00:51:39.085
659
00:51:40.345 --> 00:51:43.645
660
00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:51.695
But, no, that's a really that's a really fundamental point, Matt. I mean, I think few people, you know, maybe understand this idea that
661
00:51:52.015 --> 00:52:01.475
if let's say that you make some Bitcoin transaction with, like, a dinky little convenience store. Well, if that Bitcoin you gave them isn't properly anonymized,
662
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:08.819
then they can walk back and basic and potentially see your net worth, your whole stash. And
663
00:52:09.225 --> 00:52:14.445
if they figure that information out, then what's to say that they won't track you down and rock you later on? So,
664
00:52:15.625 --> 00:52:17.090
there are many, many, many,
665
00:52:17.570 --> 00:52:19.270
very legitimate use cases
666
00:52:19.730 --> 00:52:22.390
for frequently anonymizing your Bitcoin. So,
667
00:52:23.490 --> 00:52:24.790
yeah, thanks for the helpful
668
00:52:25.135 --> 00:52:27.475
subtitle there. Bodegas are small convenience stores.
669
00:52:29.215 --> 00:52:30.355
670
00:52:30.815 --> 00:52:35.210
671
00:52:36.630 --> 00:52:37.610
like, bodegas,
672
00:52:38.150 --> 00:52:39.210
man, I
673
00:52:39.535 --> 00:52:44.115
I am so bullish on bodegas. Like, the whole economy got completely destroyed.
674
00:52:45.055 --> 00:52:45.795
The bodega
675
00:52:46.335 --> 00:52:46.835
economy
676
00:52:47.295 --> 00:52:48.275
fucking flourished.
677
00:52:48.620 --> 00:52:58.160
They had the best business they ever had. They had their their their like, their you couldn't find toilet paper in the big grocery stores. All the bodegas had toilet paper. They all had the essentials.
678
00:52:58.465 --> 00:53:04.645
They had their cat was standing by, ready to make sure that the mice didn't have corona. Like, they were ready to fucking go.
679
00:53:05.105 --> 00:53:08.405
The bodegas are the most resilient thing about New York City.
680
00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:13.990
681
00:53:14.849 --> 00:53:17.750
the people who usually work at the bodegas
682
00:53:18.075 --> 00:53:19.055
are, you
683
00:53:19.355 --> 00:53:22.734
know, usually the owners, typically, and, you know, they're typically,
684
00:53:23.275 --> 00:53:24.415
immigrants and
685
00:53:24.954 --> 00:53:27.615
probably some of the hardest working people in the city.
686
00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:31.819
So, you know, a lot of that goes hand in hand.
687
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:34.539
688
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:38.484
incarnate in that, you know, they're all obviously shittier than
689
00:53:38.785 --> 00:53:40.005
Whole Foods, but
690
00:53:40.545 --> 00:53:42.325
they're a hell of a lot more resilient
691
00:53:42.625 --> 00:53:43.765
and, you know,
692
00:53:44.430 --> 00:53:46.369
so that's a big thing. Jane Jacobs,
693
00:53:46.829 --> 00:53:50.690
was this woman, famous urban planner, wrote a book called The Death and Life of
694
00:53:51.230 --> 00:53:58.974
Great American Cities, and she's got like a whole chapter in there about the the importance of a bodega and how it serves as kind of the backbone
695
00:53:59.275 --> 00:54:02.560
to many neighborhoods because it's sort of, it's almost like,
696
00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:08.960
you know, back in the days of old in New York, you would have the guy who ran the bodega, you know, potentially
697
00:54:09.820 --> 00:54:20.480
take delivery of your packages if you were out or hold keys for people. And so it was kind of this little opt in source of trust that that could kinda tie together,
698
00:54:22.540 --> 00:54:23.040
neighborhoods.
699
00:54:23.500 --> 00:54:25.680
By the way, shout out to Raynard, the fox,
700
00:54:26.140 --> 00:54:27.599
their, missy buddy.
701
00:54:29.055 --> 00:54:32.275
And, yeah, New York is dead long with New York for sure.
702
00:54:34.255 --> 00:54:36.300
703
00:54:36.700 --> 00:54:37.660
bodegas are,
704
00:54:39.020 --> 00:54:46.160
705
00:54:46.894 --> 00:54:48.035
I'll pay the premium.
706
00:54:48.894 --> 00:54:51.954
Indentured servitude to Jeff Mackey for
707
00:54:52.335 --> 00:54:53.394
good produce selection.
708
00:54:53.840 --> 00:55:00.980
709
00:55:01.295 --> 00:55:05.875
710
00:55:06.495 --> 00:55:08.275
he should definitely consider that.
711
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:12.740
712
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:18.305
713
00:55:19.025 --> 00:55:20.005
I think you need
714
00:55:20.305 --> 00:55:27.079
look, like labels exist for a reason, they're a convenience. If I say libertarian to someone, they at least have like a half
715
00:55:27.460 --> 00:55:28.920
hope of knowing directionally
716
00:55:29.299 --> 00:55:30.520
kinda where I stand.
717
00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:36.565
You know, I I don't I don't beef on that term at all. I think it's directionally accurate.
718
00:55:37.984 --> 00:55:40.884
719
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:45.060
definitions of it I mean, things are always shifting. Right? But
720
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:50.180
it seems to me, like, more of, like, a capital l versus lowercase l libertarian situation
721
00:55:50.715 --> 00:55:51.915
722
00:55:52.875 --> 00:55:55.855
used the lowercase. He used the lowercase, though.
723
00:55:57.890 --> 00:56:02.150
724
00:56:02.690 --> 00:56:05.510
the direction the party was trying to pander
725
00:56:06.494 --> 00:56:13.475
towards a lot of, people on the left as far as, you know, certain issues go and trying to distance themselves
726
00:56:14.270 --> 00:56:26.955
727
00:56:27.255 --> 00:56:32.380
And I don't fault them for that. I mean, you know, hey, like, my confidence is still kind of low,
728
00:56:33.319 --> 00:56:38.770
in general, and so if that's the tax somebody wants to take, you know, if they're if they're pro freedom, then,
729
00:56:39.625 --> 00:57:02.835
go for it. I mean, do do I think it's more effective to kind of participate in Bitcoin and evangelize that? Yeah. Do I think that there are mutually exclusive things? Like, not, know, so we can have a little bit of that. I mean, I think it's important to be provocative on Twitter. Like, if you're not being provocative on Twitter Yeah. That's true. Should probably do Matt, Matt, aren't aren't you afraid that people are just, like, you know, in certain cases, gonna write you off if you're too brash?
730
00:57:03.375 --> 00:57:11.700
731
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:17.265
732
00:57:17.724 --> 00:57:25.184
a lot of the people who are like, a lot of the financial punditry on Twitter. Yes. These people deserve to be relentlessly mocked,
733
00:57:25.589 --> 00:57:29.930
for dismissing Bitcoin at this point if they don't have, like, a shred of uncertainty
734
00:57:30.230 --> 00:57:31.210
in their understanding.
735
00:57:31.750 --> 00:57:33.210
But I think, you know, like,
736
00:57:33.589 --> 00:57:34.650
the general public,
737
00:57:35.035 --> 00:57:37.135
maybe I still have a little bit sympathy
738
00:57:37.595 --> 00:57:38.095
for.
739
00:57:39.035 --> 00:57:44.015
740
00:57:44.410 --> 00:57:46.349
I I respond non provocatively
741
00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:53.069
in lowercase to people that I think are actually asking questions, and I provide them resources to go and and learn more.
742
00:57:53.665 --> 00:57:58.325
Like, there's no one size fits all approach, but, I mean, the blue check should be dealt with accordingly.
743
00:57:58.785 --> 00:58:15.085
744
00:58:15.385 --> 00:58:19.964
745
00:58:20.420 --> 00:58:22.920
And I I think it's kind of cool that we live in the timeline
746
00:58:23.220 --> 00:58:23.720
where,
747
00:58:24.099 --> 00:58:33.075
where, like, he just doesn't even have a PR guy anymore. Like, Vanity Fair is, like, reaching out to Musk, and he's just like he's like, fuck you. Say hi to your puppet masters. And it's just like
748
00:58:33.615 --> 00:58:35.315
749
00:58:35.615 --> 00:58:50.755
it is a little bit it's it's a total reflection of our times in that it's a little bit cynical and a little bit destructive that, like, you know, sort of the the person who should be by the numbers, the most productive person in the world is basically, like, representing themselves with shitposts
750
00:58:51.455 --> 00:59:00.170
and it's like the sad it's like this is what money has become, this is what society has become. This is this is fiat discourse, you know. I mean, like,
751
00:59:01.030 --> 00:59:13.934
752
00:59:14.830 --> 00:59:16.690
who never is in the newspaper,
753
00:59:17.150 --> 00:59:32.950
you know, and is is is is super successful and just and your your name is never in the newspaper. No one knows who you are, no one knows your opinions, no one knows anything, alternatively, if you are a public figure, you should just embrace the shitpost and have a fucking good time.
754
00:59:34.869 --> 00:59:36.630
755
00:59:36.950 --> 00:59:45.555
I I just wish there were more people out there who were firm in their beliefs and took actual stands, but, you know, I mean, had had a little bit more
756
00:59:45.855 --> 00:59:47.474
of a genuine, articulate,
757
00:59:47.775 --> 00:59:51.875
kinda fleshed out approach. But we we certainly can't expect that from,
758
00:59:52.490 --> 00:59:58.490
759
00:59:59.289 --> 01:00:00.430
760
01:00:00.745 --> 01:00:03.305
761
01:00:04.265 --> 01:00:11.780
First off, Matthew Miller, yes, feel free to put any questions in the chat you want. We will always we will try our best to get to every question that we see here.
762
01:00:12.080 --> 01:00:18.339
Don't be shy. Just keep throwing questions in there. If we don't bring it up, it it's I probably noticed it, and we will get to it in the future.
763
01:00:19.335 --> 01:00:22.795
Big thing, Taproot activation. Everyone wants to talk about it this week.
764
01:00:23.255 --> 01:00:25.995
I think we have plenty of time to talk about it, to be quite honest,
765
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:30.820
but, I think it's very important to just keep on discussing it.
766
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:35.540
We have this argument between lot equals false and lot equals true.
767
01:00:36.175 --> 01:00:37.955
This idea is lot equals true,
768
01:00:38.735 --> 01:00:39.795
basically signifies
769
01:00:40.494 --> 01:00:45.155
that that that node that is that has this lot lot equals true flag,
770
01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:48.780
will activate Taproot at a given date in the future.
771
01:00:49.160 --> 01:00:50.300
Lottie equals false,
772
01:00:50.600 --> 01:01:02.760
says that, you know, that I'm running the Tap with client. I would like to activate it, but I am not going to could, you know, forcibly do it in the future. I will go with whichever way the network goes. There's 2 arguments
773
01:01:03.380 --> 01:01:05.240
being had similar simultaneously.
774
01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:09.560
What does core ship with as the default? What will you run individually?
775
01:01:12.585 --> 01:01:15.325
So, you know, James, you're a core dev.
776
01:01:16.425 --> 01:01:18.765
Let's start with you. Well, how do you feel here?
777
01:01:19.670 --> 01:01:26.970
778
01:01:27.325 --> 01:01:31.265
I'm maybe barely the guy that you want doing, like, the plumbing on,
779
01:01:31.645 --> 01:01:33.585
you know, the coins cache that has,
780
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:44.924
that that maintains consensus. So I'm a look. I'm a carpenter. I'm not, there there are big brain people who think about this stuff, like Anthony Towns and Suhas Stathour.
781
01:01:45.625 --> 01:01:46.765
It is not me.
782
01:01:48.025 --> 01:01:50.204
That said, my perspective is, look,
783
01:01:50.810 --> 01:01:51.950
lie equals false
784
01:01:53.930 --> 01:01:58.670
is a less presumptive approach because it allows for this idea that
785
01:01:59.205 --> 01:02:01.385
if we start the activation process
786
01:02:01.685 --> 01:02:03.945
and for whatever reason at some point,
787
01:02:04.805 --> 01:02:10.040
during the year, we discover that there is a problem with Taproot, you know, whether that's like a technical implementation
788
01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:11.000
issue
789
01:02:11.380 --> 01:02:12.680
or something in the cryptography.
790
01:02:13.380 --> 01:02:15.560
It it provides us a way of deescalating,
791
01:02:16.355 --> 01:02:16.855
whereas,
792
01:02:17.155 --> 01:02:18.775
lot equals true is
793
01:02:19.155 --> 01:02:20.615
a much kinda
794
01:02:21.395 --> 01:02:27.460
stronger assumption that, like, yeah, this is absolutely the perfect thing. We know it's right. And I would challenge anybody
795
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:31.380
who is, like, really strongly advocating for lot equals true.
796
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:39.065
You know, have you audited Taproot? Like, do you understand that code? Do you do you have do you really have confidence that it's the right thing? Because
797
01:02:39.525 --> 01:02:41.145
I think a lot of core devs
798
01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:45.640
have looked at the code and think we understand it, but,
799
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:47.579
it's, you know,
800
01:02:48.520 --> 01:02:51.660
why why do you wanna put yourself in a position where
801
01:02:52.015 --> 01:02:52.835
you could potentially
802
01:02:53.615 --> 01:02:54.835
discover some new information
803
01:02:55.615 --> 01:02:58.515
down the line and then not be able to act on it? So
804
01:03:00.540 --> 01:03:06.780
I I don't I'm not that qualified to talk about it, but I guess I'm a lot equals false guy because I just think
805
01:03:08.025 --> 01:03:09.805
806
01:03:10.345 --> 01:03:13.005
for yourself or for core or for both?
807
01:03:14.185 --> 01:03:14.925
808
01:03:16.030 --> 01:03:16.930
For both because
809
01:03:17.470 --> 01:03:21.650
I think look. If it if we get if we get into a situation like with SegWit
810
01:03:22.190 --> 01:03:23.570
where, you know,
811
01:03:24.424 --> 01:03:27.085
we have to start getting adversarial, then
812
01:03:27.464 --> 01:03:29.484
we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
813
01:03:30.664 --> 01:03:35.640
But, otherwise, I think leaving the door open for the consensus process to just work, leaving the door open
814
01:03:36.100 --> 01:03:39.000
for the possibility of some unforeseen
815
01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:39.960
circumstance,
816
01:03:41.380 --> 01:03:48.215
you know, I I think that sounds pretty wise to me. And, frankly, I mean, I think everybody should go out and read the medium post that Suhas
817
01:03:48.675 --> 01:03:55.369
Dattoor put out. He was Suhas is one of the the founders of Chaincode. He was my coworker for a long time. He's
818
01:03:55.910 --> 01:03:56.410
absolutely
819
01:03:56.950 --> 01:03:59.210
possibly the smartest person that I've ever met,
820
01:04:00.335 --> 01:04:00.835
and
821
01:04:02.015 --> 01:04:07.155
he makes some makes some good points. He's he played a huge role in in Segwit and Segwit's activation. So,
822
01:04:07.850 --> 01:04:10.910
go ahead and read his Medium post, which, you know,
823
01:04:11.530 --> 01:04:13.870
824
01:04:16.005 --> 01:04:22.345
Should I shoot you a link a link or something? Yeah. Shoot me a link in the private chat. I'll put it up for everyone else. In the meantime, Evan, respond.
825
01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:27.140
826
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:33.065
It has been, you know, excellent to see the discourse going on on
827
01:04:34.325 --> 01:04:39.305
IRC, especially on Twitter, on people's blog posts, on the Bitcoin dev mailing list.
828
01:04:40.244 --> 01:04:42.750
I really like Luke Dash his
829
01:04:43.210 --> 01:04:46.110
post on the mailing list this week. I thought that was,
830
01:04:46.650 --> 01:04:48.350
very interesting to get his
831
01:04:48.890 --> 01:04:49.390
perspective
832
01:04:49.690 --> 01:04:51.310
fully fleshed out like that.
833
01:04:51.895 --> 01:04:54.395
As I stand right now, I'm still leaning,
834
01:04:55.095 --> 01:04:55.994
Watt Vault.
835
01:04:56.454 --> 01:04:57.515
I probably
836
01:04:57.815 --> 01:05:00.714
would say that I would like to see Corship that way.
837
01:05:01.859 --> 01:05:05.799
Whether I want it to be a configurable option in your bitcoin.com
838
01:05:07.539 --> 01:05:10.520
file, I'm still sort of up in the air about that.
839
01:05:12.155 --> 01:05:14.734
But, yeah, I just like hearing everyone's arguments.
840
01:05:15.355 --> 01:05:16.335
I haven't definitively,
841
01:05:16.875 --> 01:05:17.535
you know,
842
01:05:19.180 --> 01:05:21.440
decide how I'm gonna signal, but I'm definitely
843
01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:29.615
leaning for sure in the left the the false camp. I sort of understand the true argument in that, you know, the minors have,
844
01:05:31.194 --> 01:05:38.000
already indicated that they're gonna activate it themselves, that they don't have to really. So it's going to have.
845
01:05:39.580 --> 01:05:41.120
But at the same time, you know,
846
01:05:42.185 --> 01:05:46.605
the information we have in front of us could change, and, you know, it's probably best to stay flexible.
847
01:05:47.305 --> 01:05:48.045
So I
848
01:05:48.585 --> 01:05:56.330
but, yeah, the there's these ideas of, like, being sort of, let's say, for lack of a better word, like, equitable and allowing everyone to get their stay in,
849
01:05:56.950 --> 01:05:58.170
sort of goes at
850
01:05:58.705 --> 01:06:00.005
sort of sort of at odds
851
01:06:00.305 --> 01:06:05.525
with the idea of, like, going down a script path and having, like, a clean activation in some way.
852
01:06:06.180 --> 01:06:06.680
853
01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:09.400
I I have since discovered,
854
01:06:10.020 --> 01:06:12.360
I I mean, I just discovered that Medium,
855
01:06:13.194 --> 01:06:15.775
breaks links if you do it all caps. So
856
01:06:16.075 --> 01:06:25.010
I had to I had to repost it as a non all caps version, and also I've discovered that YouTube I discovered this the other day with my Mooch interview that YouTube also,
857
01:06:25.710 --> 01:06:30.530
the link breaks if you go all caps. So shame on both of you as services, Medium, and YouTube.
858
01:06:31.525 --> 01:06:39.465
859
01:06:39.970 --> 01:06:51.205
860
01:06:53.585 --> 01:07:02.220
I I I think first off, I think it's important that core ships with lot equals false. I I don't think that we should expect core developers
861
01:07:03.855 --> 01:07:10.835
to, you know, ship software with any kind of meaningful change. Mhmm. This is like a key tenant to Bitcoin.
862
01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:22.635
As as a key tenant to Bitcoin, this idea that you you if if we have auto updates, then the person who issues the auto update is a central point of failure. That person can submit
863
01:07:22.935 --> 01:07:31.329
a malicious update. Right? They can submit an update that adds k y c. I'm being provocative. Or they they could submit an update that increases the 21,000,000 cap. Oh, god forbid.
864
01:07:32.589 --> 01:07:33.089
So
865
01:07:33.470 --> 01:07:37.375
so we we don't want auto updates, and we don't want updates that
866
01:07:38.175 --> 01:07:48.250
that auto add a change. Even if it's in the future, I I I that I guess that's better than an auto update, you know, like, an update that's, like, says over 6 months, the update will change, but still,
867
01:07:48.630 --> 01:07:50.650
the default should always be no change.
868
01:07:51.030 --> 01:07:54.090
No significant change. No, you know, major change.
869
01:07:54.815 --> 01:07:57.634
So I agree that lot equals false, but I think
870
01:07:58.095 --> 01:08:06.880
what we need is we need basically the threat of Bitcoiners that are potentially going lot equal true. Right? Mhmm. So I I think I think for myself,
871
01:08:07.500 --> 01:08:11.600
like, I will probably you know, my node will probably be lot equals true.
872
01:08:12.805 --> 01:08:16.025
873
01:08:16.804 --> 01:08:24.010
874
01:08:24.870 --> 01:08:30.330
But I, like, I can I can check that you guys like, I there there's been
875
01:08:31.804 --> 01:08:35.425
an amazing amount of due diligence on this fucking,
876
01:08:36.525 --> 01:08:37.105
you know,
877
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:41.060
addition to Bitcoin? Agree. There's been an insane amount,
878
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:47.380
and at at some point, you know, and it, like, kinda comes down with the corona stuff. Like, at some point,
879
01:08:47.945 --> 01:08:55.244
like, there will always be risk. Like, there'll always be risk, and it's important to the miners know that there's, like, this transinate transgenic
880
01:08:56.105 --> 01:09:03.070
minority that might be activating the shit regardless, and you need to be timely about it. But I still think that,
881
01:09:03.930 --> 01:09:04.430
officially,
882
01:09:05.355 --> 01:09:10.255
we should let the miners, like, approve the change. But in the back of their mind, they should always be thinking,
883
01:09:10.954 --> 01:09:20.630
you know, like, oh, these dick wads are fucking gonna go lot equal true, and we gotta be concerned about that. Right? Like, it's it's important for that. And as a public Bitcoiner, as someone
884
01:09:21.094 --> 01:09:22.875
who honest like, I I broadcast
885
01:09:23.494 --> 01:09:24.875
7 hours a week.
886
01:09:25.255 --> 01:09:36.110
Like, it's important that that they realize that this guy is is is one of those one of those people. Right. Right. But I think it's and I hey. Look. 100% agree with that sentiment.
887
01:09:36.965 --> 01:09:37.945
888
01:09:38.405 --> 01:09:42.184
there's there's a bigger point that's important to emphasize, which is
889
01:09:42.485 --> 01:09:45.465
just because I'm signaling lot equals false today
890
01:09:45.860 --> 01:09:48.600
does not mean I will not signal lot equals true tomorrow.
891
01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:54.440
892
01:09:54.915 --> 01:09:55.415
893
01:09:55.795 --> 01:10:08.880
Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. So there's that messy aspect of it as well. You know? But I I think, look, the reality is, I mean, this whole the whole lot equals whatever discussion tires me out, because I think in reality,
894
01:10:09.580 --> 01:10:11.040
we've basically purged,
895
01:10:11.500 --> 01:10:12.400
you know, like,
896
01:10:12.965 --> 01:10:14.745
everybody who bounced
897
01:10:15.364 --> 01:10:19.785
who is gonna bounce, bounced back, you know, in in segwit times. And so
898
01:10:20.485 --> 01:10:21.625
this time around,
899
01:10:22.140 --> 01:10:25.120
I really I will really be surprised if we have,
900
01:10:26.060 --> 01:10:30.239
901
01:10:30.605 --> 01:10:34.765
change, but I think it's important that we set up we have to we have to set
902
01:10:35.645 --> 01:10:41.210
I don't want to argue about activation method every time we have to activate something. What I want to do is
903
01:10:41.510 --> 01:10:43.930
I wanna have a clear activation path,
904
01:10:44.310 --> 01:10:46.730
and I like this idea that we have a single
905
01:10:47.430 --> 01:10:49.210
we have we have a single variable.
906
01:10:49.815 --> 01:10:59.110
You're either you're either pushing it or you're you're going along with the the the group or you're doing neither. So you have you have 3 choices. You don't upgrade,
907
01:10:59.570 --> 01:11:03.429
your lot equals false, or your lot equals true. I like this as a concept
908
01:11:03.730 --> 01:11:05.590
for all future soft forks.
909
01:11:06.035 --> 01:11:09.095
And I think it's important that we set up this this
910
01:11:09.555 --> 01:11:10.055
process
911
01:11:10.595 --> 01:11:18.420
so that in any future soft fork, we don't have to fucking go through how is the activation method gonna happen. We could just go through,
912
01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:25.165
are you not updating? Are you lot false? Are you lot true? And we can just proceed from that point of view.
913
01:11:25.705 --> 01:11:26.205
Mhmm.
914
01:11:26.744 --> 01:11:31.485
Does that make sense? Does it does it like, does is that is that a valid
915
01:11:32.390 --> 01:11:33.050
thought process?
916
01:11:33.510 --> 01:11:38.250
917
01:11:38.550 --> 01:11:41.915
It just means you don't want a mandatory lock
918
01:11:42.535 --> 01:11:51.300
in after a certain time threshold if the the required threshold of miners isn't signaling. Live false means you're ready for tap root, but you're not gonna force shit.
919
01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:54.179
920
01:11:54.800 --> 01:12:01.685
miner activated software and a user activated software. Whereas l o t true is the flag day event that
921
01:12:02.385 --> 01:12:03.365
does UASF
922
01:12:03.745 --> 01:12:04.485
part 2.
923
01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:08.300
And, really, it comes down to whether you thought that
924
01:12:08.840 --> 01:12:11.179
the user activated soft fork in 2017
925
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:14.699
should be treated as a gold standard for upgrades.
926
01:12:15.625 --> 01:12:17.565
And, you know, as someone who
927
01:12:17.865 --> 01:12:23.165
is leaning towards LOT equals false and probably gonna signal that way, like, I I don't think it was. I I think,
928
01:12:23.610 --> 01:12:29.370
there were a lot of things that were done in a rush manner because of the circumstances. I think a lot of things can
929
01:12:30.090 --> 01:12:31.070
could have been done,
930
01:12:31.370 --> 01:12:32.350
much more cleanly.
931
01:12:32.775 --> 01:12:39.995
And, you know, we also need to consider that that was a contentious upgrade that led us to, you know, a plethora of forks.
932
01:12:40.535 --> 01:12:41.035
So,
933
01:12:42.150 --> 01:12:47.130
you know, it it it's it's crazy in that, you know, a lot of people still have the PTSD
934
01:12:47.430 --> 01:12:47.930
from
935
01:12:48.685 --> 01:12:50.385
the last upgrade in in 2017,
936
01:12:51.325 --> 01:12:56.145
and, you know, that's why people are a little bit on edge. But, you know, generally speaking,
937
01:12:56.590 --> 01:12:58.769
we should be a bit more relaxed. And,
938
01:12:59.150 --> 01:12:59.809
you know,
939
01:13:00.590 --> 01:13:05.725
let let them let the miners take the first step. And if they don't, we're not really,
940
01:13:06.825 --> 01:13:10.765
putting ourselves into a corner. We always have the option of turning LOD,
941
01:13:11.940 --> 01:13:15.800
942
01:13:16.580 --> 01:13:17.960
so I fall in the middle
943
01:13:18.395 --> 01:13:23.695
because I I don't think, like, off the bat we go, you know, I don't think this idea that we should just
944
01:13:24.554 --> 01:13:28.880
I I I think it's important that Bitcoin development is always conservative.
945
01:13:29.500 --> 01:13:30.000
Right?
946
01:13:30.460 --> 01:13:31.920
And I think that
947
01:13:32.460 --> 01:13:33.200
we need
948
01:13:33.955 --> 01:13:34.455
to
949
01:13:35.155 --> 01:13:35.655
prioritize
950
01:13:36.035 --> 01:13:42.535
no change over change in every fucking situation. This is a feature, not a bug. It's hard to change
951
01:13:42.950 --> 01:13:43.690
by default.
952
01:13:45.430 --> 01:13:47.770
I I I think it's important to realize
953
01:13:48.870 --> 01:13:50.330
at the same time though,
954
01:13:51.935 --> 01:13:59.715
so so so so with that being said, I'm not I don't think we should railroad any kind of change. And and and and, you know,
955
01:14:00.250 --> 01:14:05.550
Marty's a brother to me. The freaks have heard me week after week for the last 2 years,
956
01:14:06.250 --> 01:14:12.474
or more than 2 years with Marty. And Marty has this tendency sometimes. He's like, let's just fucking railroad this thing.
957
01:14:13.494 --> 01:14:20.600
Let's just fucking make it happen. And you have to be careful about that because, you know, we could railroad something that's bad. Like, how do we know if it's, you know,
958
01:14:21.620 --> 01:14:24.565
you know, what is a good change versus what is a bad change?
959
01:14:25.285 --> 01:14:26.985
At the same time, like,
960
01:14:28.005 --> 01:14:35.239
we have to we have to be careful not to be fucking cucks about it. Right? Like, we have to like like, peep like, there needs to be
961
01:14:35.699 --> 01:14:37.699
a bit of a backbone here. And I
962
01:14:38.500 --> 01:14:48.205
so so I think off the bat, like, we let the miners signal. And I think I think the miners are just gonna fucking activate this thing, and then we won't even have to it won't even mind. And I
963
01:14:48.905 --> 01:14:57.110
I actually think that there's a good chance that the freaks know I do have a bet where either me or Marty has to pay a million sats to, the Human Rights Foundation,
964
01:14:57.570 --> 01:14:58.550
a great cause,
965
01:14:59.165 --> 01:14:59.665
to,
966
01:15:00.605 --> 01:15:06.945
if if it gets if if Tab Root gets activated January 1st, Marty says it's gonna activate before January 1st. I say after.
967
01:15:08.710 --> 01:15:11.210
Yeah, James. You're good to go. Just fucking go for it.
968
01:15:11.670 --> 01:15:12.150
And,
969
01:15:12.870 --> 01:15:14.970
I I say I say afterwards.
970
01:15:15.990 --> 01:15:17.290
But at the same time,
971
01:15:18.655 --> 01:15:30.360
like, there's there's a very good chance that miners just activate this, and we just, like, fucking get it done with, and we don't even have to fucking you know, we don't even have to do this dick contest. I just think it's important that the minors realize my point is, I guess,
972
01:15:30.660 --> 01:15:35.460
I guess my point is of this long rambling is that I think it's important that the minors know that that we'll fucking
973
01:15:36.585 --> 01:15:43.885
974
01:15:44.505 --> 01:15:45.005
is,
975
01:15:46.730 --> 01:15:50.350
is the user pointing a gun to the miner's head and saying,
976
01:15:50.890 --> 01:15:57.905
hey. You need to happen. Right? And and in this analogy, what you want is that everyone to be packing,
977
01:15:59.164 --> 01:15:59.664
if
978
01:16:00.045 --> 01:16:06.349
need be, if push come to show, but not to do it out the gate. Right. I I I I think there's people that are, like,
979
01:16:06.650 --> 01:16:14.815
980
01:16:15.435 --> 01:16:19.695
981
01:16:20.140 --> 01:16:25.680
982
01:16:26.060 --> 01:16:50.415
983
01:16:51.035 --> 01:17:09.440
984
01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:11.460
but yeah.
985
01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:16.100
So I, you know, I I guess, yeah, Conceal Carry, your your lie equals true.
986
01:17:17.085 --> 01:17:21.345
987
01:17:22.364 --> 01:17:23.985
false was a bug.
988
01:17:25.300 --> 01:17:28.440
James, did you get to read Luke's post this week from,
989
01:17:28.740 --> 01:17:29.560
like, Sunday?
990
01:17:30.100 --> 01:17:30.600
991
01:17:32.515 --> 01:17:37.975
I read, like, a few responses. I I kinda skimmed the thread as I do most mailing list posts.
992
01:17:39.075 --> 01:17:40.455
Luke's a little bit delusional.
993
01:17:41.395 --> 01:17:41.895
He
994
01:17:42.660 --> 01:17:45.960
makes some pretty insane claims in there.
995
01:17:47.140 --> 01:17:51.960
And in general, he like like, with assuming UTXO, he, like, multiple times
996
01:17:52.534 --> 01:17:53.034
misconstrued
997
01:17:53.335 --> 01:17:53.994
the proposal
998
01:17:54.695 --> 01:17:57.914
as being, like, hard coding checkpoints or something.
999
01:17:58.614 --> 01:18:01.514
And I I've had to explain to him numerous times,
1000
01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:04.099
like, the actual nature of the proposal,
1001
01:18:04.639 --> 01:18:07.619
and each time he's gone, oh, okay. Yeah. That sounds fine.
1002
01:18:08.400 --> 01:18:10.995
So Luke's a little bit delusional, to be honest.
1003
01:18:12.915 --> 01:18:16.455
I I don't think I don't think what he wrote holds much weight in my book.
1004
01:18:17.475 --> 01:18:19.575
1005
01:18:20.410 --> 01:18:25.469
if we have users with both LOT true and LOT false activated, there's possibilities
1006
01:18:25.850 --> 01:18:26.350
of,
1007
01:18:27.835 --> 01:18:30.975
the false chain being overtaken by the true chain
1008
01:18:32.315 --> 01:18:35.534
as far as work goes. And, he was also concerned,
1009
01:18:36.180 --> 01:18:38.040
in a nutshell about, like, the incentives
1010
01:18:38.420 --> 01:18:40.760
or sort of trying to second guess,
1011
01:18:41.620 --> 01:18:42.360
the activation
1012
01:18:42.820 --> 01:18:43.320
and,
1013
01:18:43.780 --> 01:18:44.440
you know,
1014
01:18:44.785 --> 01:18:54.170
just open up the avenue for users to act in, like, an unruly way and, you know, try to hold great hostage. That that's what it pretty much was in a nutshell.
1015
01:18:54.470 --> 01:18:59.210
1016
01:19:00.195 --> 01:19:04.295
I'll have to dig up the email. That was just, like, really, like, kind of ridiculous.
1017
01:19:05.395 --> 01:19:08.775
But, but, no, you look and and I think it's good.
1018
01:19:09.130 --> 01:19:13.790
Luke is, like, a good fixture to have in the community because he is a complete hardliner
1019
01:19:14.330 --> 01:19:24.815
whether whether it sort of makes sense or not. And, I mean, he's kind of a hardliner for his own stuff, like, for a while. I don't know how much you guys have looked in the loop, but, like, for a while, he was all on the tonal number system,
1020
01:19:25.250 --> 01:19:37.895
1021
01:19:38.595 --> 01:19:41.415
1022
01:19:43.190 --> 01:19:45.770
1023
01:19:46.150 --> 01:19:46.650
names
1024
01:19:47.030 --> 01:19:52.495
1025
01:19:53.355 --> 01:20:03.080
1026
01:20:03.700 --> 01:20:12.595
1027
01:20:13.610 --> 01:20:24.335
1028
01:20:24.795 --> 01:20:26.575
Through my my GitHub Sponsors,
1029
01:20:26.955 --> 01:20:30.635
Bill, which is uses dirty fiat to be to be honest. But,
1030
01:20:31.220 --> 01:20:33.640
I think I actually both I fund both of you guys.
1031
01:20:35.300 --> 01:20:39.480
Do you both have GitHub Sponsors? I definitely fund them. Yeah. You do. Thank you, man.
1032
01:20:40.355 --> 01:20:40.855
And,
1033
01:20:41.395 --> 01:20:46.135
I mean, number goes down on that if you price them sats, like, the amount of money I've been giving you guys.
1034
01:20:46.835 --> 01:20:47.335
But,
1035
01:20:48.710 --> 01:20:54.810
Appreciate it, Matt. Yeah. But but but Luke is, like, one of the most successful Bitcoin developers on GitHub Sponsors,
1036
01:20:55.190 --> 01:21:04.105
and he always complains about not getting funding. But cheers to him. He just got a big a big funding around from Wasabi Wallet and Bull Bitcoin,
1037
01:21:04.950 --> 01:21:07.690
So that's good to see, and that's where his work on Bitcoin Knots,
1038
01:21:08.470 --> 01:21:10.970
which is basically a fork of Bitcoin Core,
1039
01:21:11.670 --> 01:21:12.890
that he maintains
1040
01:21:13.190 --> 01:21:14.455
that also has
1041
01:21:15.015 --> 01:21:16.475
a blacklist implemented,
1042
01:21:16.935 --> 01:21:17.435
and,
1043
01:21:19.655 --> 01:21:28.260
he it serves it serves Neutrino filters when the I think Bitcoin Core now serves neutrino filters, but that was a big thing for a while that that NOS was the only one that did.
1044
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:29.219
1045
01:21:29.735 --> 01:21:32.535
So, yeah, congrats to Luke. It's awesome to see. Glad to have
1046
01:21:34.695 --> 01:21:38.875
1047
01:21:39.260 --> 01:21:47.840
Bitcoin developers the way he should be. So every time he flexes, it's important to let him know that he should support developers more. Oh, that's funny. I, yeah. I hadn't realized.
1048
01:21:49.235 --> 01:21:55.255
That's a new flex. The new flex shouldn't be, like, posting your stack. It should be posting how much you're contributing to Bitcoin developer.
1049
01:21:59.340 --> 01:21:59.840
1050
01:22:02.060 --> 01:22:03.659
Hey. Just trying to give back,
1051
01:22:04.300 --> 01:22:06.800
you know, into the community however you can.
1052
01:22:07.155 --> 01:22:07.655
1053
01:22:08.435 --> 01:22:12.455
I mean, the the only reason I contribute to you guys is so that you have to come on the podcast.
1054
01:22:13.315 --> 01:22:13.715
1055
01:22:15.630 --> 01:22:16.130
1056
01:22:17.150 --> 01:22:21.010
cold core. We had we had Craig Raw, the fucking
1057
01:22:21.310 --> 01:22:27.175
notorious Craig Raw on the podcast last week. This guy is a fucking boss. Big assort dependencies.
1058
01:22:27.955 --> 01:22:31.895
Yeah. He's talking about adversarial environment. He's talking about what is cold storage.
1059
01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:37.380
Do you even you your cold storage is fucking hot storage. You think it's cold, but it's not cold.
1060
01:22:38.800 --> 01:22:39.940
Why cold core?
1061
01:22:40.480 --> 01:22:41.140
You know,
1062
01:22:41.594 --> 01:22:45.835
show us cold core. Why are you working on it? Why should people even consider it a, you know
1063
01:22:46.715 --> 01:22:48.735
why is what you're doing over there important?
1064
01:22:49.730 --> 01:22:55.989
1065
01:22:57.665 --> 01:22:58.165
I,
1066
01:22:58.705 --> 01:23:02.405
you know, used to I I I love Coldcard, which is NDK's,
1067
01:23:03.425 --> 01:23:05.045
offline Bitcoin hardware wallet,
1068
01:23:05.870 --> 01:23:07.330
and I use that personally.
1069
01:23:09.070 --> 01:23:10.770
And I really hated
1070
01:23:11.630 --> 01:23:13.889
having to set up a bunch of infrastructure,
1071
01:23:15.935 --> 01:23:17.795
like Electrum personal server,
1072
01:23:19.215 --> 01:23:20.995
using an Electrum client itself,
1073
01:23:23.400 --> 01:23:30.219
Because Electrum I mean, Electrum's like a nice piece of software in in some sense and that it has a lot of features, it's pretty well written,
1074
01:23:31.245 --> 01:23:37.344
but it's a massive project. There's there's a lot of lines of code and a lot of dependencies, and it pulls a bunch of stuff in.
1075
01:23:38.605 --> 01:23:39.105
And,
1076
01:23:40.100 --> 01:23:44.280
increasingly, these software supply chain attacks have gotten more popular where,
1077
01:23:44.660 --> 01:23:45.320
you know,
1078
01:23:46.100 --> 01:23:52.215
if you run a major software project, you have what are called dependencies, and and basically, that's just pulling in other people's code,
1079
01:23:53.235 --> 01:24:06.765
so that you don't have to write it yourself. So for example, if I write any Bitcoin code, I'm probably gonna have to run the shot 256 function. Well, you know, I don't really wanna rewrite the shot 256 function, so I'm gonna pull in some dependency where that's already written for me.
1080
01:24:07.645 --> 01:24:11.745
And over the past few years, we've just seen an increasing number of of attacks,
1081
01:24:12.445 --> 01:24:13.425
related to
1082
01:24:14.820 --> 01:24:15.320
somebody,
1083
01:24:15.699 --> 01:24:19.400
you know, finding so so you can go out, download the source code for some wallet,
1084
01:24:20.179 --> 01:24:26.094
analyze the dependency graph of what they're using, and then find, you know, some tiny project
1085
01:24:26.554 --> 01:24:29.295
which is like a dependency of a dependency of a dependency,
1086
01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:44.855
take over that project, you know, go to the maintainer who's probably, like, overworked and, you know, last updated the code 6 months from now or 6 months previous, and say, hey. I wanna take over your project. I'm gonna be a good maintainer. And many people are totally willing to do this.
1087
01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:50.100
And then you just embed some malicious code that says, hey. If I'm running under these circumstances,
1088
01:24:50.400 --> 01:24:50.900
exfiltrate,
1089
01:24:51.360 --> 01:24:55.300
you know, the encrypted proof keep file to this to this endpoint.
1090
01:24:56.055 --> 01:25:04.155
And then all of a sudden, bam, you know, you're you're you're compromised without even having realized it. And this is an academic because it actually happened to
1091
01:25:05.610 --> 01:25:07.070
BitPay's copay wallet,
1092
01:25:07.849 --> 01:25:11.630
1093
01:25:12.250 --> 01:25:17.235
1094
01:25:18.175 --> 01:25:22.515
you know, I would do so in a container, I would, like, take all these these really
1095
01:25:23.270 --> 01:25:30.010
sophisticated measures that I couldn't expect, and that that I I myself could barely do consistently because they were so complicated,
1096
01:25:30.525 --> 01:25:34.945
And I'm a fucking software engineer, so it's like, how could I expect
1097
01:25:35.804 --> 01:25:39.025
regular Bitcoin users to to do this kind of stuff
1098
01:25:39.429 --> 01:25:40.969
just to have some,
1099
01:25:41.270 --> 01:25:41.929
you know,
1100
01:25:42.949 --> 01:25:47.505
vague feeling of of relative security. And so I said, okay. There's gotta be there's gotta be a better way.
1101
01:25:48.784 --> 01:25:53.284
And so I I looked into it, and if you want to send and receive Bitcoin,
1102
01:25:53.905 --> 01:25:58.630
you really don't need that much. So Electrum personal server is doing a lot of heavy lifting
1103
01:25:59.010 --> 01:26:12.025
that's basically amounts to indexing the entire blockchain and, you know, having having an address index on hand for kind of any conceivable address you might want, when the reality is that you really probably only care about your own wallet. And so
1104
01:26:12.469 --> 01:26:13.809
given that fact,
1105
01:26:14.310 --> 01:26:18.570
Bitcoin Core's modern RPC interface now since version 0.19
1106
01:26:19.975 --> 01:26:24.955
lets you do pretty much everything you need to maintain your own coins without having to
1107
01:26:25.415 --> 01:26:28.475
have this separate index and and all this extra software.
1108
01:26:28.870 --> 01:26:29.370
So,
1109
01:26:29.830 --> 01:26:30.330
basically,
1110
01:26:31.030 --> 01:26:39.965
I wanted to write something that I could use myself and feel pretty good about and and not feel like I had spend half a day, like, resurrecting the setup whenever I wanted to do anything.
1111
01:26:40.985 --> 01:26:45.960
And then I wanted to make something that would be sort of an entry point for
1112
01:26:46.500 --> 01:26:47.000
people
1113
01:26:47.780 --> 01:26:52.199
who are technical, but but don't have experience maybe per se on the command line.
1114
01:26:52.820 --> 01:26:53.765
Because I think
1115
01:26:54.245 --> 01:27:01.145
as things go forward, there's just in the same way that everybody needs to become acquainted with public key cryptography and key management,
1116
01:27:01.480 --> 01:27:07.900
I think people are gonna need to become acquainted with the command line because in many ways, it's really just the only way to be
1117
01:27:08.360 --> 01:27:10.699
more sure of what software you're actually running.
1118
01:27:11.465 --> 01:27:14.845
And the way that I learned the command line in Linux more generally is,
1119
01:27:15.865 --> 01:27:20.285
in high school, you know, I was setting up media servers and trying to run Linux, and I was just, like, basically
1120
01:27:20.820 --> 01:27:25.960
copy pasting commands that, you know, I'd read in tutorials and and kinda like learning the command line. So,
1121
01:27:27.460 --> 01:27:33.285
I wanted to kind of provide an avenue for people who are technical but maybe don't know Linux,
1122
01:27:33.825 --> 01:27:36.645
to start working in the command line. And I figured that
1123
01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:40.300
cold core would be a cool way to do that, while simultaneously
1124
01:27:40.679 --> 01:27:41.179
minimizing,
1125
01:27:41.559 --> 01:27:45.179
the dependencies there. And so there is, you can either use
1126
01:27:45.955 --> 01:27:54.375
a command line interface, or there's a little graphical interface, but within the terminal. So there's yeah. So you're flashing a screenshot of that up right there.
1127
01:27:55.120 --> 01:28:05.125
And and it feels kinda graphical the graphical interfaces in the terminal are, like, super happy. Yeah. Exactly. You know, you you just you feel it feels cool using that stuff.
1128
01:28:06.145 --> 01:28:06.545
And,
1129
01:28:06.945 --> 01:28:13.340
yeah. I I I'm a big fan of that kind of thing. I mean, even being a jaded software engineer, so it gives me a little glimmer of, like,
1130
01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:14.380
of,
1131
01:28:14.760 --> 01:28:18.780
joy when I crack open a terminal interface like that. So
1132
01:28:19.445 --> 01:28:23.625
I wanted to write something that that was cool, that was fun to use, but very, very simple,
1133
01:28:24.005 --> 01:28:24.824
very readable,
1134
01:28:25.125 --> 01:28:25.864
0 dependencies.
1135
01:28:26.910 --> 01:28:28.610
1136
01:28:29.470 --> 01:28:31.330
1137
01:28:31.950 --> 01:28:37.954
A Python interpreter, which which every modern operating system ships with, and Bitcoin Core.
1138
01:28:38.494 --> 01:28:43.560
Those are literally the only only dependencies. There's no package manager. There's no install process.
1139
01:28:43.940 --> 01:28:46.520
You literally just clone this single script,
1140
01:28:46.900 --> 01:28:52.135
have Bitcoin Core running, and then run this thing in a terminal, and and you're off to the races.
1141
01:28:53.075 --> 01:28:53.575
1142
01:28:54.755 --> 01:28:56.340
Yeah, James. I've used it it for,
1143
01:28:56.980 --> 01:28:58.340
for Test Wallet, and,
1144
01:28:58.980 --> 01:29:01.239
yeah, it's a pretty smooth experience.
1145
01:29:02.100 --> 01:29:05.239
I was really impressed with it. I I really love how,
1146
01:29:05.814 --> 01:29:15.780
you know, light it is and, you know, not having any dependencies is like a huge win there. So right now, it's single sig. Right?
1147
01:29:16.320 --> 01:29:16.820
1148
01:29:17.280 --> 01:29:22.020
1149
01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:26.515
1150
01:29:26.895 --> 01:29:29.555
you know, kind of tractable and easy for people.
1151
01:29:30.015 --> 01:29:32.035
And that's gonna require a little bit more code.
1152
01:29:32.520 --> 01:29:46.045
So I'm trying to think of if I can do it in a way that it's like sort of a an opt in plug in because, obviously, that's gonna add some complexity and some code, and so I'm trying to figure out a way where you could just kind of layer that on top of the basic cold core.
1153
01:29:47.465 --> 01:29:57.250
But, yeah, that's that is something I'm thinking about. But, I mean, you're integrating directly into h w I. Right? No. I'm not even using h w I. That h h w I requires
1154
01:29:57.630 --> 01:29:58.130
dependencies.
1155
01:29:58.750 --> 01:29:59.650
1156
01:30:00.355 --> 01:30:08.455
I there yeah. There are no dependencies in this map. So so it's only is it only it's not only is it single sync, but it's only cold card?
1157
01:30:08.830 --> 01:30:39.515
1158
01:30:39.895 --> 01:30:43.340
1159
01:30:44.219 --> 01:30:49.280
1160
01:30:50.699 --> 01:30:52.320
1161
01:30:53.085 --> 01:30:56.785
1162
01:30:57.245 --> 01:31:09.665
1163
01:31:10.225 --> 01:31:21.920
1164
01:31:22.540 --> 01:31:37.910
and then and then oh, no. It's constructing a non signed PSVT, and then it's taking a signed PSVT and broadcasting it. Right? Like, that's it. Ex that that is literally it. The only way to parse specific thing is that we we parse your XPUB descriptor
1165
01:31:38.530 --> 01:31:55.750
from a file that the cold card will output, but, like, that is so trivial to to add for other ones. If they use the same standard as cold card, which is a very easy standard to follow, and they just provide you with an unsigned PSVT, I mean, they they have you construct an unsigned PSVT and then provide you with a signed PSVT,
1166
01:31:57.010 --> 01:31:57.910
then they're compatible.
1167
01:31:58.210 --> 01:32:02.605
Yep. Exactly. Which is really what we should expect from all hardware wallets. We shouldn't expect
1168
01:32:02.905 --> 01:32:05.005
fucking James to change this software.
1169
01:32:05.705 --> 01:32:08.685
We should expect them to just comply with an existing standard.
1170
01:32:09.050 --> 01:32:11.710
James, there's a question from Ed in the audience.
1171
01:32:12.730 --> 01:32:16.030
Does do we need Bitcoin Core to be running locally to use Coldcore?
1172
01:32:16.825 --> 01:32:17.725
1173
01:32:18.344 --> 01:32:22.765
no. You don't. Well, so let me put it this way. You need Bitcoin Core running
1174
01:32:23.225 --> 01:32:28.270
somewhere where the RPC interface is accessible, and that can be via the network. So what I do personally
1175
01:32:28.730 --> 01:32:32.010
local. It needs to be on you know, it could be,
1176
01:32:33.035 --> 01:32:37.695
you know, what I do is, I have a a Bitcoin core instance running in a certain location,
1177
01:32:38.075 --> 01:32:40.095
and I'm on my own WireGuard VPN.
1178
01:32:40.750 --> 01:33:01.980
1179
01:33:02.440 --> 01:33:06.699
That's on your network. It's it's somewhere on your network. Network, on your Wi Fi. Yeah. Exactly.
1180
01:33:09.344 --> 01:33:09.844
Evan.
1181
01:33:11.585 --> 01:33:12.405
1182
01:33:12.825 --> 01:33:13.325
it's
1183
01:33:13.745 --> 01:33:16.460
a dope project. We're really liking so far, James.
1184
01:33:17.020 --> 01:33:22.780
1185
01:33:23.739 --> 01:33:26.195
it's it's honestly, there's I mean, I'm
1186
01:33:26.994 --> 01:33:33.735
there's no formal release yet, so caveat emptor all that stuff. But, like, there's honestly not that much I can fuck up because
1187
01:33:34.409 --> 01:33:36.510
core is really doing all the heavy lifting,
1188
01:33:37.530 --> 01:33:38.190
you know,
1189
01:33:38.650 --> 01:33:44.495
I so there's there's not a lot that can go wrong there, but, you know, check it out, give it a read. If you know Python
1190
01:33:44.875 --> 01:33:51.535
1191
01:33:52.270 --> 01:33:58.850
So You gotta stand under your own bridge for sure. Yeah. That's what I appreciate about you. At least when you got rack trading, you did it yourself.
1192
01:34:00.385 --> 01:34:01.764
1193
01:34:02.145 --> 01:34:03.204
Yeah. By yourself.
1194
01:34:03.505 --> 01:34:16.440
1195
01:34:16.775 --> 01:34:18.395
1196
01:34:22.775 --> 01:34:30.760
1197
01:34:31.239 --> 01:34:40.985
1198
01:34:42.010 --> 01:34:43.310
we prefer Wasabi
1199
01:34:43.770 --> 01:34:55.335
or Electron. And I think for a single sig wallet, this blows the hell out of both of them. It's it's amazing. It's a great solution. I like I like the idea of cold core. I mean, I like the idea of core plus
1200
01:34:55.955 --> 01:34:59.895
1201
01:35:00.520 --> 01:35:01.020
that
1202
01:35:01.560 --> 01:35:05.260
I mean, you can use cold core in a prune node mode. Right, James?
1203
01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:19.840
Yeah. So, like, so, like, max, you're holding 10 gigs of space. And, and, like, honestly, like, if you're gonna be your own bank, like, I think you can find a computer that has 10 gigs of capacity. Mhmm. Like, that's fucking ridiculous. And I think you should find a computer that has 10 gigs of SSD capacity,
1204
01:35:20.460 --> 01:35:29.095
so fucking just fucking do it. And you just have core just straight up there, and you you have whatever you're doing to interact with your fucking keys directly in between,
1205
01:35:29.635 --> 01:35:35.415
1206
01:35:36.190 --> 01:35:36.690
Ed,
1207
01:35:37.230 --> 01:35:43.015
the answer there is that your obviously, your keys still live on the cold card and they don't, you know,
1208
01:35:43.415 --> 01:35:49.035
the cold core doesn't know anything about your private keys, which is why I feel comfortable kinda recommending it.
1209
01:35:49.895 --> 01:35:55.670
What it does know about is your XPUB, which, obviously, if that leaks out, then there's some privacy implications. But,
1210
01:35:56.290 --> 01:36:04.045
1211
01:36:04.505 --> 01:36:10.150
1212
01:36:11.250 --> 01:36:12.070
by way of,
1213
01:36:12.530 --> 01:36:14.230
the pass utility or GPG.
1214
01:36:14.825 --> 01:36:19.005
1215
01:36:19.945 --> 01:36:24.810
1216
01:36:25.450 --> 01:36:26.410
1217
01:36:27.370 --> 01:36:30.270
why can't I just use Bitcoin core qt anyway?
1218
01:36:30.890 --> 01:36:36.275
Because you can't use Bitcoin core with the cold card unless you use HWI, which has a bunch of dependencies. Right?
1219
01:36:36.575 --> 01:36:50.660
1220
01:36:52.395 --> 01:37:13.195
So I I prefer to use something that at least has a little bit of an interface and, you know, I I think the reality is, like, asking people to run these really complicated RPC commands probably It's never gonna happen. Yeah. It's, like, 7 people. It's, like, 15 people are gonna fucking do that shit. Yep. Yep. Ed, that was Literally. The question because in a sense, I didn't get around to this, but in a sense, you're sort of right because
1221
01:37:13.574 --> 01:37:18.315
what cold core does is it creates a watch only wallet in core
1222
01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:24.580
that corresponds to your XPub descriptor. So the keys the keys still live in in the cold card, obviously,
1223
01:37:25.040 --> 01:37:26.340
but you do have,
1224
01:37:27.040 --> 01:37:33.074
a Bitcoin Core watch only wallet that's watching your funds. And then and then CoolCore just, like, backs up to that.
1225
01:37:33.375 --> 01:37:40.210
1226
01:37:40.510 --> 01:37:42.850
1227
01:37:43.715 --> 01:37:45.095
1228
01:37:45.555 --> 01:37:55.790
it freaks. If you ask a dumb question, we just won't answer it. But I I I really do I I've fallen the camp of there's very few dumb questions. I I will not say there are no dumb questions.
1229
01:37:56.450 --> 01:38:12.380
There are no dumb questions. I've had enough of this this India pale hard seltzer that I'll entertain pretty much anything. So There we go. That's what I'm talking about. James, I don't know if you're aware, but we kind of go hard on this on this show. So I I hope you're ready. I I assume nothing else,
1230
01:38:12.760 --> 01:38:13.980
1231
01:38:16.520 --> 01:38:18.345
1232
01:38:18.725 --> 01:38:22.165
look. I'm I'm pretty excited about your project here. I think it's,
1233
01:38:22.885 --> 01:38:25.385
it's an important one. I'm glad you're working on it.
1234
01:38:26.190 --> 01:38:29.550
1235
01:38:30.030 --> 01:38:39.395
at this point, I'm my own satisfied customer, so there's a little bit of work to be done on the sending interface, but, realistically, you shouldn't ever be sending anyway. So
1236
01:38:40.355 --> 01:38:45.730
1237
01:38:46.110 --> 01:38:47.330
It's great that they use
1238
01:38:47.790 --> 01:38:52.290
and now treat us to the product as well. So awesome tool to add to the article.
1239
01:38:52.735 --> 01:39:01.370
1240
01:39:01.830 --> 01:39:02.330
contributors,
1241
01:39:02.790 --> 01:39:03.290
maintainers,
1242
01:39:03.910 --> 01:39:05.449
just in general developers
1243
01:39:05.910 --> 01:39:08.090
that are contributing to open source software.
1244
01:39:10.015 --> 01:39:11.555
I'm trying to be more
1245
01:39:13.535 --> 01:39:18.969
you know, I've I've been trying to scratch that edge. It's been hard for me, to be quite honest, in terms of,
1246
01:39:19.590 --> 01:39:21.210
my understanding of code.
1247
01:39:21.670 --> 01:39:26.975
But on one side, like, that I've been very focused on is is is trying to facilitate,
1248
01:39:28.795 --> 01:39:30.095
funding of
1249
01:39:30.590 --> 01:39:34.449
just open source development in general. And then this idea that free open source
1250
01:39:35.070 --> 01:39:39.410
software doesn't have an easy monetization model, this idea that
1251
01:39:40.045 --> 01:39:43.825
that that that that people should go for closed source
1252
01:39:44.205 --> 01:39:47.505
because they can profit easier than if they go open source
1253
01:39:49.190 --> 01:39:55.290
is is a very dangerous mindset. It's a mindset that I wholeheartedly disagree with, which is interesting.
1254
01:39:55.895 --> 01:39:59.675
You know, we had the whole libertarian conversation earlier. It's interesting because,
1255
01:40:00.695 --> 01:40:08.180
some people might call it socialist, but I don't think it's socialist. I think this I I think it's viral. It's like this idea that you have open source,
1256
01:40:09.040 --> 01:40:09.540
code
1257
01:40:10.160 --> 01:40:18.275
that can do all these fucking different things, and you can mold it into all the all these other different things is super powerful. Like, it can't be stopped. It's like this this
1258
01:40:18.655 --> 01:40:21.235
this amazing viral fucking loop.
1259
01:40:22.710 --> 01:40:31.265
So now that I have both of you guys here, and, I mean, you've dedicated yourselves I mean, you both have separate jobs that, you know, pay your fiat paycheck and and pay your fiat rent.
1260
01:40:32.065 --> 01:40:35.125
But but you both have dedicated yourselves to open source development.
1261
01:40:36.545 --> 01:40:38.725
I'm really curious and and and
1262
01:40:39.330 --> 01:40:42.150
full disclosure, this is something that I'm working on with
1263
01:40:42.850 --> 01:40:44.070
with James himself,
1264
01:40:45.010 --> 01:40:47.350
to to create a foundation to support,
1265
01:40:47.755 --> 01:40:50.895
free open source software going forward. So it's a it's a very
1266
01:40:51.195 --> 01:40:58.580
it's a very important topic to me. It's a topic that I I plan to focus on even heavy heavier going on in the future.
1267
01:40:59.200 --> 01:41:01.380
But but as 2 open source developers,
1268
01:41:02.240 --> 01:41:04.180
I'm curious where you stand here. Like,
1269
01:41:04.725 --> 01:41:06.264
should should people be concerned
1270
01:41:06.645 --> 01:41:16.100
that there's no real straightforward business model for open stores? Should people be like like, she'll like, should we care about open sort like, why should we care about open source?
1271
01:41:17.120 --> 01:41:18.179
1272
01:41:18.800 --> 01:41:21.140
1273
01:41:21.505 --> 01:41:22.725
something that could be
1274
01:41:23.105 --> 01:41:26.485
as profound and important to you as your life savings,
1275
01:41:27.345 --> 01:41:29.045
you wanna have some assurances
1276
01:41:29.425 --> 01:41:30.325
as as to
1277
01:41:30.960 --> 01:41:33.940
what code that those keys are passing through.
1278
01:41:34.480 --> 01:41:34.980
So,
1279
01:41:35.360 --> 01:41:36.340
in our space,
1280
01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:40.100
I think being open source is imperative, and I would
1281
01:41:40.685 --> 01:41:41.985
never ever consider,
1282
01:41:42.845 --> 01:41:43.985
running a
1283
01:41:44.445 --> 01:41:44.945
proprietary
1284
01:41:45.405 --> 01:41:46.145
closed source
1285
01:41:46.445 --> 01:41:50.909
wallet with any serious amount of funds. And there's simply no need to.
1286
01:41:51.929 --> 01:41:53.150
As far as,
1287
01:41:54.330 --> 01:41:54.909
you know,
1288
01:41:55.905 --> 01:42:00.005
monetary models and and funding models for open source projects,
1289
01:42:01.585 --> 01:42:07.260
there's no denying that, you know, just going off donations alone is not really feasible
1290
01:42:07.560 --> 01:42:10.940
for a project that can be done that needs full time
1291
01:42:11.455 --> 01:42:15.315
support and attention. I mean, it's just not gonna work that way.
1292
01:42:15.695 --> 01:42:16.175
But,
1293
01:42:16.495 --> 01:42:19.020
I think a lot of people are messing with,
1294
01:42:20.220 --> 01:42:30.335
you know, new ways of thinking of it, you know, not just charging for the software, but let letting that stuff all be open and open stores and have contributors contribute to it.
1295
01:42:30.875 --> 01:42:34.895
But I I think the important thing is gonna be the other service you could potentially,
1296
01:42:35.915 --> 01:42:36.975
support if it's
1297
01:42:37.590 --> 01:42:45.610
a or provide if it's, like, a big service. And I think samurai is really paving the way for that and, you know, have doing a good job
1298
01:42:46.095 --> 01:42:50.114
as far as, you know, making money off the Whirlpool fees while
1299
01:42:50.575 --> 01:42:53.635
continuing to iterate on all these great tools. But,
1300
01:42:54.080 --> 01:42:55.860
you know, it's not an easy,
1301
01:42:56.560 --> 01:42:57.060
answer,
1302
01:42:57.679 --> 01:43:09.055
as to, like, you know, keeping these things running. And, you know, while developers are trying to figure out what they could provide, how they could bring in money to keep the project going, I I really do think that,
1303
01:43:09.675 --> 01:43:10.335
you know,
1304
01:43:11.090 --> 01:43:12.789
user donations are very important.
1305
01:43:15.889 --> 01:43:18.895
1306
01:43:19.355 --> 01:43:22.095
I people on Twitter see the caption
1307
01:43:22.635 --> 01:43:27.980
automatically without hearing the sound, so they're gonna they're more likely to click in if they they see that caption.
1308
01:43:28.860 --> 01:43:31.600
So it's a little bit of a clickbait. It's a little bit of a clickbait.
1309
01:43:32.220 --> 01:43:37.965
And for the for the listeners of the podcast, my caption is open source devs will have fun staying poor.
1310
01:43:39.005 --> 01:43:42.224
James, do you disagree with the statement on the subtitles?
1311
01:43:42.764 --> 01:43:47.025
1312
01:43:47.670 --> 01:43:49.610
big thanks to Cantion John
1313
01:43:50.070 --> 01:43:56.010
for the funny comment about cold core reminding him of old computer RPGs. That's totally what I was going for.
1314
01:43:56.395 --> 01:44:01.275
Oh, yeah. Nice. And and a quick note about, Matt, what you said, you know, don't
1315
01:44:02.075 --> 01:44:04.495
nobody should feel self conscious for not
1316
01:44:04.969 --> 01:44:06.750
being an open source dev,
1317
01:44:07.850 --> 01:44:10.429
because, Matt, I I think in many ways you do
1318
01:44:11.050 --> 01:44:15.385
analogous work, but with wet code instead of dry code, which ultimately
1319
01:44:15.765 --> 01:44:17.705
you can make the argument pretty credibly
1320
01:44:18.245 --> 01:44:21.865
that that's socializing these ideas and making sure there's a
1321
01:44:22.550 --> 01:44:24.730
community and distribution of information
1322
01:44:25.429 --> 01:44:30.170
is as important as the sort of raw innovation itself in the code.
1323
01:44:30.755 --> 01:44:39.975
So you're doing God's work, man, and, I don't I it doesn't matter if you never write a a live code for Bitcoin, you know, that that goes open
1324
01:44:40.580 --> 01:44:43.480
at all. If you keep doing the work you're doing, that's you know?
1325
01:44:43.780 --> 01:44:48.200
And is there more of a contribution than a lot of the the code that's written? So
1326
01:44:49.445 --> 01:44:56.185
so I I think, you know, there are lots of ways to be a sort of quote unquote open source participant in Bitcoin.
1327
01:44:57.630 --> 01:45:08.394
You know? Yeah. If you have a day job and and you're busy and you are sympathetic to Bitcoin and you wanna contribute somehow, hey, funding funding projects that you believe in, that's a great way to go.
1328
01:45:08.775 --> 01:45:09.914
And I think, thankfully,
1329
01:45:10.454 --> 01:45:15.340
we're gonna have some really great mechanisms for doing that. You know, I I do use GitHub Sponsors,
1330
01:45:16.440 --> 01:45:17.100
and that's,
1331
01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:20.620
honestly, the when I opened that up and
1332
01:45:20.965 --> 01:45:25.545
threw my page up, I was I was overwhelmed with the response. And, you know, within
1333
01:45:26.325 --> 01:45:34.280
something like 3 days, I had kind of met the the goal that I had set out to raise just to to do nights and weekends work on core. So,
1334
01:45:35.219 --> 01:45:38.040
that's a really cool avenue, and I I have found that
1335
01:45:39.435 --> 01:45:40.175
the corporations
1336
01:45:40.635 --> 01:45:44.095
here are at least give a lot of lip service to supporting,
1337
01:45:44.635 --> 01:45:47.295
development and in many cases, follow through on that.
1338
01:45:48.370 --> 01:45:48.870
Coinbase
1339
01:45:49.170 --> 01:45:53.750
is still lagging a little bit in my estimation despite making a lot of noise about it.
1340
01:45:54.370 --> 01:45:59.895
But didn't they did they did they fund somebody recently, or are they still just kind of saying, we'll we'll fund somebody?
1341
01:46:00.355 --> 01:46:01.335
Do you guys know?
1342
01:46:03.475 --> 01:46:05.335
1343
01:46:06.035 --> 01:46:07.940
1344
01:46:08.820 --> 01:46:17.835
1345
01:46:18.375 --> 01:46:19.835
1346
01:46:20.534 --> 01:46:23.675
valuation, and they've done shit a whole for a Bitcoin result.
1347
01:46:24.054 --> 01:46:26.210
And they've only accumulated a $130,000,000
1348
01:46:26.750 --> 01:46:27.489
worth of Bitcoin,
1349
01:46:27.790 --> 01:46:30.930
which is honestly, like, poor man's status compared to MicroStrategy.
1350
01:46:31.390 --> 01:46:32.375
Some random ads
1351
01:46:32.855 --> 01:46:34.235
some random as dotcomcomputercompany
1352
01:46:35.255 --> 01:46:45.250
1353
01:46:46.270 --> 01:46:51.025
split brain take on Coinbase because in many ways, you know, I have, like, Coinbase nostalgia
1354
01:46:51.485 --> 01:46:54.785
for being one of the first exchanges. I was wrong. I apologize.
1355
01:46:56.285 --> 01:46:57.425
1356
01:46:57.880 --> 01:46:58.620
1357
01:46:59.080 --> 01:47:02.540
one of my favorite Bitcoin developers got funded by Coinbase.
1358
01:47:03.240 --> 01:47:06.825
Who? You were right about ProMag, but the other guy, I feel bad about.
1359
01:47:07.625 --> 01:47:08.125
0xb10c?
1360
01:47:10.905 --> 01:47:11.865
Oh, yeah. That was
1361
01:47:13.065 --> 01:47:15.820
Dude's a fucking boss. Like, I met him once
1362
01:47:16.219 --> 01:47:27.145
at, New York City BitDevs. He's like, I love that guy. Like, he's fucking awesome. Alright. Well, they're on Coinbase then for for starting to step up. No. No. No. No. Fuck Coinbase, but I like that guy.
1363
01:47:27.525 --> 01:47:38.989
And I I also apologize for being wrong about them develop like, we we the only reason they did it was because Brian Armstrong got called out for being a racist prick and and supporting,
1364
01:47:40.455 --> 01:47:40.955
selling
1365
01:47:41.415 --> 01:47:44.555
surveillance software to US government agencies
1366
01:47:45.335 --> 01:47:46.315
way below market,
1367
01:47:47.050 --> 01:47:47.550
pretending
1368
01:47:48.090 --> 01:47:52.830
that he needed to recoup costs even though they made over a $1,000,000,000
1369
01:47:53.210 --> 01:47:57.364
worth of revenue last year. But, like, oh, they have to recoup the cost of, like, $150,000
1370
01:47:58.304 --> 01:48:03.364
deal with the US government. That's that's pretty scary. So then he went on Peter McCormick's podcast,
1371
01:48:03.820 --> 01:48:08.400
and, like, when Peter asked me, he goes, Matt, like, how can I pressure this guy?
1372
01:48:08.780 --> 01:48:22.349
Like, the only really tangible thing you can do is, like, oh, well, like, have him support Bitcoin core development. So, like, like, he did, like, the least minimum, you know, amount that he can fucking do. Mhmm. But, you know, Super Serial is raising a good point there
1373
01:48:22.650 --> 01:48:26.270
1374
01:48:26.885 --> 01:48:37.720
made it easy for people to buy Bitcoin, certainly easier than going to Mt. Gox, which, you know, didn't look out for the people who did that. So I I do have Coinbase nostalgia. I hope they
1375
01:48:38.100 --> 01:48:44.360
reclaim their greatness and delisk all the shit coins and you know? But, but I'm not holding my breath.
1376
01:48:45.485 --> 01:48:48.145
1377
01:48:48.925 --> 01:48:49.425
1378
01:48:51.085 --> 01:48:56.550
1379
01:48:58.150 --> 01:48:59.850
they sent it all to the US government
1380
01:49:00.310 --> 01:49:02.330
and then proceeded to
1381
01:49:03.065 --> 01:49:07.405
focus on on Chickcoins. I I I just wish Coinbase focused more on
1382
01:49:08.185 --> 01:49:13.630
I just wish I just wish Coinbase focused as much on privacy as they did on registering
1383
01:49:14.090 --> 01:49:22.865
illegal securities. Like, I just wish, like, that was, like Yeah. There was, like, a balancing act there, but instead. But, anyway, I'm I'm glad they that they finally,
1384
01:49:23.485 --> 01:49:24.685
after all these years,
1385
01:49:25.325 --> 01:49:26.865
contribute to Bitcoin development.
1386
01:49:27.550 --> 01:49:33.890
And and I will applaud anyone who does that. I've said this on the podcast. We've applauded Okcoin and
1387
01:49:34.270 --> 01:49:35.970
bunch of other shitcoin exchanges,
1388
01:49:36.765 --> 01:49:41.665
for their their funding. And I think it's it's extra important that we do applaud that because,
1389
01:49:42.365 --> 01:49:44.730
otherwise, we'll never have it. Right? Mhmm.
1390
01:49:47.030 --> 01:49:53.050
Yeah. Social pressure works, freaks. Social pressure works. They tell us, you know, Matt, you're just being antisocial.
1391
01:49:53.995 --> 01:50:08.619
Like, why can't you just tow the party line? Why are you being a dickhead about things? And then they fucking do things because I'm a dickhead. You know? Like, if I didn't have the meme that was, like, open finance and, like, defy and, like, you just have, like, fucking
1392
01:50:09.175 --> 01:50:24.190
the DEA rating you with assault rifles, like, open like, they probably would not have funded core development. Like, you have to you have to pressure them. They feel it. They absolutely feel the pressure. If you think that these human beings that run these corporations do not feel pressure
1393
01:50:24.570 --> 01:50:31.905
based on social media, Like, you're living in a whole different world. Like, it doesn't matter how rich you are. That notification ring comes in.
1394
01:50:32.685 --> 01:50:40.170
1395
01:50:41.525 --> 01:50:45.785
desire to fund development. But fundamentally, at the end of the day, it's a marketing exercise.
1396
01:50:46.165 --> 01:50:48.265
It's a marketing expenditure for the company.
1397
01:50:48.570 --> 01:50:51.390
And so that social pressure is really important.
1398
01:50:52.570 --> 01:50:53.070
1399
01:50:53.770 --> 01:50:56.890
End of the day, it all comes down to your incentives, and,
1400
01:50:57.290 --> 01:51:04.665
you know, we gotta do our part to, like, you guys have incentives to do the right things that push the space and direction that you wanna see.
1401
01:51:05.204 --> 01:51:06.905
So keep being toxic, Matt.
1402
01:51:08.120 --> 01:51:10.940
1403
01:51:12.440 --> 01:51:14.460
I'm just welcoming in a
1404
01:51:15.475 --> 01:51:17.015
a unquestionable way.
1405
01:51:17.395 --> 01:51:21.655
1406
01:51:22.300 --> 01:51:29.760
1407
01:51:30.515 --> 01:51:37.255
1408
01:51:37.795 --> 01:51:43.320
1409
01:51:43.700 --> 01:51:45.570
1410
01:51:49.405 --> 01:51:50.224
1411
01:51:50.764 --> 01:51:52.284
on that note, like, I just
1412
01:51:55.680 --> 01:52:01.220
yeah. I I mean, I I think the most powerful thing about Have Fun Staying Poor is this idea that
1413
01:52:02.560 --> 01:52:08.885
we will never have enough Bitcoin, so we have to have fun staying poor. Like, people think it's an outward meme,
1414
01:52:09.264 --> 01:52:13.764
but really, I think it's an inward meme. It's something that I have to just accept as a person
1415
01:52:14.070 --> 01:52:18.170
that I will have to have fun staying poor because I will never have enough Bitcoin.
1416
01:52:22.615 --> 01:52:24.075
1417
01:52:25.015 --> 01:52:29.115
I think anybody involved at this stage of the game is is is probably gonna have enough Bitcoin.
1418
01:52:29.480 --> 01:52:36.780
Yo, dude. I'm just trying to have fun staying poor. Can you just fucking close all that? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to get in the way of you having fun staying poor.
1419
01:52:39.272 --> 01:52:42.284
Throw throw out the big h. Sean Stack, and thank you.
1420
01:52:42.985 --> 01:52:45.164
1421
01:52:45.864 --> 01:52:48.264
This is h. Freaking their h. Wait. Oh, he's gonna
1422
01:52:49.090 --> 01:52:55.430
there's no way you you freaks can't make it happen. Like, you're just not organized enough. There's not enough of you in here, and and you just can't
1423
01:52:55.970 --> 01:53:04.364
like, I wish you could. It's a shame you can't. I hope that at 75 k, you'll have the resolve to do it. Unfortunately, the freaks have gotten weaker,
1424
01:53:05.380 --> 01:53:08.840
because the price dipped a little bit. Here we go. We got an a.
1425
01:53:10.820 --> 01:53:16.664
1426
01:53:18.164 --> 01:53:21.125
1427
01:53:22.720 --> 01:53:27.220
1428
01:53:27.600 --> 01:53:28.420
Zeus dependencies.
1429
01:53:28.720 --> 01:53:31.620
We could talk about l 2. I saw there was,
1430
01:53:31.945 --> 01:53:34.764
1431
01:53:36.025 --> 01:53:36.764
This is,
1432
01:53:40.510 --> 01:53:41.550
this is what,
1433
01:53:42.989 --> 01:53:46.290
this is what fucking did it for, Brian Armstrong.
1434
01:53:47.775 --> 01:53:50.275
He had he had no choice. I mean, really, ultimately,
1435
01:53:52.575 --> 01:53:57.559
what what was he gonna do? He says, just let me flex. He was just gonna let me flex on him this way.
1436
01:54:00.020 --> 01:54:01.239
Apologies. Apologies.
1437
01:54:01.780 --> 01:54:04.119
To the freaks who are listening in the chat,
1438
01:54:04.635 --> 01:54:05.935
the freaks that are listening,
1439
01:54:07.034 --> 01:54:08.014
via podcast,
1440
01:54:09.514 --> 01:54:12.735
I am right now, I am flexing on Brian Armstrong
1441
01:54:13.650 --> 01:54:14.150
with
1442
01:54:14.770 --> 01:54:18.150
my open oh, that was horrible. What what was horrible?
1443
01:54:19.170 --> 01:54:22.150
1444
01:54:22.745 --> 01:54:23.245
episode.
1445
01:54:23.865 --> 01:54:37.380
1446
01:54:37.760 --> 01:54:43.164
Like, how can how can Brian Armstrong not How can he avoid this? Like, this is just
1447
01:54:44.105 --> 01:54:48.284
I destroyed him. I absolutely destroyed him meme wise on this.
1448
01:54:50.610 --> 01:54:55.895
1449
01:54:56.375 --> 01:54:57.275
SJW uproar
1450
01:54:57.655 --> 01:55:04.715
1451
01:55:05.270 --> 01:55:12.370
Do you know that American Idol right now on Clubhouse, he just he just immediately just says, like, don't use Coinbase. They're racist. He just, like, says it non favorable,
1452
01:55:13.735 --> 01:55:15.195
which is fucking hilarious.
1453
01:55:15.495 --> 01:55:29.110
Well, I never I never I I recommend people away from Coinbase because they so aggressively push. But how powerful is this meme? This is like like, I get credit for a lot of memes that, like, honestly, guys, like, I'm not trying to own memes. Real memes aren't owned.
1454
01:55:29.815 --> 01:55:34.875
The reason stacking stats is powerful is because no one fucking owns it, and I would never attempt to own it.
1455
01:55:35.574 --> 01:55:41.130
This meme is so fucking powerful. Like, this just, like this sent shock waves
1456
01:55:41.430 --> 01:55:43.210
through the Coinbase organization.
1457
01:55:47.005 --> 01:55:48.465
1458
01:55:48.925 --> 01:55:57.180
1459
01:55:58.655 --> 01:56:00.835
They felt it. They felt it hard.
1460
01:56:01.135 --> 01:56:02.435
And then all of a sudden
1461
01:56:03.695 --> 01:56:06.835
all of a sudden, they started doing community outreach.
1462
01:56:08.240 --> 01:56:13.460
1463
01:56:14.080 --> 01:56:20.985
1464
01:56:21.525 --> 01:56:23.465
Kobe and Ledger Status
1465
01:56:24.119 --> 01:56:32.219
literally have a podcast called Up Only. They have a Twitch stream called Up Only. They get 8 x what we get as viewers because
1466
01:56:32.695 --> 01:56:59.690
the overwhelming majority of people just the all they wanna hear about is price. That's all they wanna hear about price. And I just wanna say to all the listeners here, we're gonna make way more money than anyone who's watching their stream. Okay? And and and and the majority of people don't realize, we're in the in group We're in the in group. We're just gonna stack stats. They're gonna try and trade, like, NFTs and all this garbage, and we're gonna make more money than them. And that's fine. We don't need the engagement because we have the stats. Okay, James. Continue.
1467
01:57:00.150 --> 01:57:03.270
1468
01:57:05.110 --> 01:57:05.849
the moments
1469
01:57:06.215 --> 01:57:23.260
that you make a lot of money, you know, in Bitcoin and maybe in general in the world are not predictable. And so you just gotta stack and sit tight because you just don't know when it's gonna happen. And if you try and trade around it, as I mentioned earlier, you're just not gonna make money. But what I wanna know from you 2
1470
01:57:25.465 --> 01:57:27.645
is, a, do you have any firm
1471
01:57:28.105 --> 01:57:31.645
sort of price targets for this cycle, or do you think that's silly?
1472
01:57:31.960 --> 01:57:37.579
And b, do you think that there is this chance of this cycle being the last cycle
1473
01:57:37.880 --> 01:57:39.980
given that the marginal buyer now
1474
01:57:40.405 --> 01:57:55.969
seems to be institutional and, you know, by nature has stronger hands than in, say, 2017 when it was a bunch of retail, when when you're the guy on your sales team, you know, had coin market cap up on his phone at lunch. Do you think this is a different thing?
1475
01:57:56.429 --> 01:57:57.889
1476
01:57:59.595 --> 01:58:00.095
Price
1477
01:58:00.555 --> 01:58:01.055
targets.
1478
01:58:01.835 --> 01:58:03.055
Well, let's start there.
1479
01:58:04.155 --> 01:58:05.215
You know, obviously,
1480
01:58:06.600 --> 01:58:12.940
I don't have a crystal ball. I'm really just going based on my gut. I do think we're gonna have a mom's per year.
1481
01:58:13.615 --> 01:58:20.580
I really do think we're gonna have a similar situation to the last cycle where we have a crazy blow off top.
1482
01:58:21.060 --> 01:58:22.760
I think it's probably gonna happen
1483
01:58:23.540 --> 01:58:24.040
in,
1484
01:58:24.820 --> 01:58:28.920
you know, late December or or January as the tails get a little longer.
1485
01:58:30.385 --> 01:58:31.525
I'm expecting
1486
01:58:32.225 --> 01:58:35.525
I I don't think it's unreasonable to think that's gonna be at least a $200,000
1487
01:58:36.145 --> 01:58:40.800
Bitcoin, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to hit half a $1,000,000 this cycle.
1488
01:58:41.420 --> 01:58:45.600
But I do not think this is the final cycle at all.
1489
01:58:45.945 --> 01:58:46.605
I think,
1490
01:58:47.065 --> 01:58:53.885
the drawdown may be a little less severe than the previous cycles, but I still think it's gonna be quite violent.
1491
01:58:54.500 --> 01:59:08.095
Definitely see us, like, going to 500 k or something and then coming back all the way down to a 100 or us hitting, like, 350 and us coming down to, like, you know, 65 k or something. I think the cycle is still gonna
1492
01:59:09.035 --> 01:59:10.175
continue. I mean,
1493
01:59:10.849 --> 01:59:18.230
you know, people are gonna get greedy on the way up, and we're gonna go up way too hot, and it's gonna have to come back down to earth again.
1494
01:59:19.090 --> 01:59:19.909
1495
01:59:20.645 --> 01:59:21.945
Evan. First of all,
1496
01:59:23.205 --> 01:59:24.825
I love your because, see,
1497
01:59:26.005 --> 01:59:30.260
this is what pre pandemic people don't realize. Like like, Evan's just
1498
01:59:30.880 --> 01:59:31.380
nonchalant,
1499
01:59:35.040 --> 01:59:45.975
just, like, constant tone. Like, that's the tone we heard in the bars. That was, like, a very private tone. It was, like, it was just, like, Evan has been drinking. He's talking about Bitcoin. He's just been throwing a constant
1500
01:59:46.310 --> 01:59:51.210
tone, and then nothing will change. This was, like, a very intimate thing that we we got to feel,
1501
01:59:51.989 --> 01:59:52.890
New York City,
1502
01:59:53.510 --> 01:59:54.730
2020. But,
1503
01:59:56.415 --> 02:00:05.320
look, this idea, the final cycle, like, fuck you, all all you people, like, fuck you. Like like like, you'll know the top is in line when
1504
02:00:05.700 --> 02:00:12.615
the general consensus is that this is the final cycle. Like, I promise you last cycle, I thought it was the final cycle.
1505
02:00:13.315 --> 02:00:17.815
Did I think it was the final cycle up until 10 k? No. I was very conservative.
1506
02:00:18.540 --> 02:00:21.040
I was like, oh, we could just dump all the way down.
1507
02:00:21.580 --> 02:00:24.159
It's pretty funny that Vinnie called the top at 1100,
1508
02:00:24.699 --> 02:00:27.840
but, like, we might drop down below that, like, no one knows.
1509
02:00:28.365 --> 02:00:30.305
I'm, like, thinking all these things through.
1510
02:00:30.685 --> 02:00:38.350
And then once we pass 15 k, I was, like, hyper Bitcoinization is upon us. This is the final cycle. I do not have enough Bitcoin. We're all
1511
02:00:39.150 --> 02:00:40.770
fucked. When we hit that point,
1512
02:00:41.150 --> 02:00:43.970
you're gonna hit that point, freaks. When you hit that point,
1513
02:00:44.350 --> 02:00:57.250
that's the top. Yeah. That that that that's when we hit the top. We're gonna fall 70%, and Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. We're just gonna continue to pump after that. You know? And and and people who are humble as SaaS attackers will be completely unaffected.
1514
02:00:57.870 --> 02:01:01.810
Mhmm. But if you let your emotions get a hold of yourself,
1515
02:01:03.245 --> 02:01:04.785
it's gonna get fucking crazy.
1516
02:01:06.365 --> 02:01:07.105
1517
02:01:08.285 --> 02:01:12.390
You're your own worst enemy when trading this stuff. So, you know, and
1518
02:01:13.330 --> 02:01:18.630
you think that is the end and you don't have enough and you're feeling really greedy. You're trying to
1519
02:01:19.145 --> 02:01:21.005
think that, you know, you should be liquidating
1520
02:01:21.465 --> 02:01:25.725
other assets you have in your life and then be doing it, like, now now now, like, that's probably
1521
02:01:26.470 --> 02:01:30.570
1522
02:01:32.230 --> 02:01:44.510
I'm too late. It's too risky for me or whatever. And, like, you're just putting in way more than your boys at a day a day. Like, as it stands, like, what are they doing? Like, what's going on, guys? Yep. Yep. Yep. I know that feel.
1523
02:01:45.530 --> 02:01:49.710
And I tell them. I try and like, I try and tell, like, the people I'm really close with
1524
02:01:50.090 --> 02:01:53.275
because, like, honestly, for opposite reasons, you shouldn't tell the public.
1525
02:01:53.755 --> 02:01:57.455
But I try and tell them exactly how much I'm putting into Bitcoin because
1526
02:01:57.835 --> 02:02:00.015
it hits them hard. They're like, oh, fuck.
1527
02:02:00.450 --> 02:02:07.350
I thought this guy was early, and he's still putting in blank amount into Bitcoin, and I'm just being a little bitch about it. It really does hit them.
1528
02:02:09.405 --> 02:02:21.900
1529
02:02:22.280 --> 02:02:24.380
1530
02:02:24.725 --> 02:03:03.155
So I would like if they could pick up some of the slack and just, you know, like, buy some Bitcoin so I don't have to fucking spend as much on them. You know? Like, it it's it's it's it's not it's not a completely selfless thing. Like, Twitter is more of a selfless thing, I would say. The podcast is more of a selfless thing. When I show Bitcoin to friends and family, like, I'm hoping that I have another dude, another 2 or 3 dudes to to fucking pick up the slack with me when we need to, like, you know, handle Citadel Medical expenses. You know? Like, why, like, why should I handle that all myself? Like, it'd be nice if someone else could buy in at some fucking point. Well, then you want people to feel like they succeeded and they they made the decision
1531
02:03:03.535 --> 02:03:07.635
1532
02:03:08.030 --> 02:03:16.770
oh, you know, luckily, my rich buddy, Matt, was ringing about Bitcoin. Like, you you you want people who have made the choice to to buy into this themselves.
1533
02:03:20.085 --> 02:03:20.905
1534
02:03:22.565 --> 02:03:26.025
1535
02:03:29.860 --> 02:03:30.440
1536
02:03:31.940 --> 02:03:33.480
what, since October?
1537
02:03:33.995 --> 02:03:38.015
1538
02:03:38.555 --> 02:03:43.820
1539
02:03:44.780 --> 02:03:46.159
let that cat out the
1540
02:03:47.980 --> 02:03:49.679
bag. But, yeah. No worries.
1541
02:03:50.139 --> 02:03:52.395
It's been, it's been good. And, you know, hopefully,
1542
02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:01.620
Still can't.
1543
02:04:02.720 --> 02:04:03.040
It's,
1544
02:04:04.000 --> 02:04:09.220
I'll tell you about the the process when when I can, but, yeah, it's in a little bit of a funny state.
1545
02:04:11.105 --> 02:04:16.325
1546
02:04:16.785 --> 02:04:20.565
the majority of the public Bitcoin industry is employed by Kraken.
1547
02:04:21.010 --> 02:04:26.630
1548
02:04:27.745 --> 02:04:28.245
1549
02:04:28.945 --> 02:04:29.445
man.
1550
02:04:31.985 --> 02:04:33.285