Feb. 24, 2021
CD10: Bitcoin Self Custody, Security, and Privacy with @craigraw and @econoalchemist
EPISODE: 0.1.0
BLOCK: 671870
PRICE: 2085 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Bitcoin Self Custody, Security, and Privacy
streamed live every tuesday:
https://citadeldispatch.com
twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch
bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos
podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch
telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch
support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: http://citadel.chat/
00:00 - The global nature of Bitcoin holders
01:18 - Bitcoin's rapid growth compared to other tech companies
02:29 - Introduction of Citadel Dispatch podcast
02:58 - Importance of self custody and security
06:29 - Inspiration behind Sparrow Wallet
09:46 - Advantages of self custody and holding your own keys
12:52 - Different types of wallets and their security levels
18:29 - The importance of multisig for security
40:06 - The ideal path for securing Bitcoin
45:16 - The benefits of multi vendor, multi sig
01:19:12 - The challenge of storing wallet data in an unencrypted format in Bitcoin Core
01:32:58 - The importance of separating the Bitcoin Core Wallet from the node
01:35:30 - The risk of storing wallet data in an unencrypted format in Bitcoin Core
01:35:58 - Command for bitcoin.com file
01:36:14 - Looking up transactions on your node
01:41:47 - Choosing the right software architecture for a wallet
02:22:24 - Deplatforming from donation platforms
02:23:26 - Pay NIMs and Soroban integration
02:24:24 - Bitcoin's design to pump forever
02:26:52 - How to stop Bitcoin
02:32:23 - Greta's Fury and non-KYC onramps
02:36:09 - Home mining and reducing noise
02:45:01 - The future of mining and hash rate
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:18 PM
Duration: 10678.831
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:01.220
Still found things,
2
00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:05.779
that that the points that you made that I went, wow.
3
00:00:06.319 --> 00:00:09.985
I went wow when I read it because I I hadn't really considered it. So
4
00:00:10.464 --> 00:00:11.445
there's a 100,000,000
5
00:00:11.985 --> 00:00:12.485
holders
6
00:00:13.264 --> 00:00:15.445
now. You figure it won't be long
7
00:00:15.824 --> 00:00:18.645
theoretically until there's a 1000000000 holders, and
8
00:00:19.779 --> 00:00:30.744
the global nature of who they would be is what hit me because everybody's gonna have a phone, eventually. It doesn't matter where you are. You're gonna have a phone, probably. You can afford that in every country of the world, most people.
9
00:00:31.205 --> 00:00:32.985
So you could have people saving
10
00:00:33.364 --> 00:00:39.330
where they had no other way to save. You could have people in countries where the inflation rate is a 1000%
11
00:00:39.870 --> 00:00:40.850
on their currencies,
12
00:00:41.470 --> 00:00:42.850
and they could be saving
13
00:00:43.355 --> 00:00:47.455
on their phone using Bitcoin, and there could be a 1000000000 holders hodlers,
14
00:00:47.995 --> 00:00:53.660
at some point. I I I hadn't even considered how powerful that is for people that don't have access to that now.
15
00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:58.940
Look, the story here that's not being told is that Bitcoin is egalitarian
16
00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:00.620
progressive technology.
17
00:01:01.275 --> 00:01:11.055
We're gonna see a a day when 7 to 8000000000 people have a bar of digital gold on their phone and they're using it to store their life savings with it.
18
00:01:11.390 --> 00:01:13.810
Google took 22 years to become a $1,000,000,000,000
19
00:01:14.190 --> 00:01:20.210
network. Now Amazon took 24 years. Apple took 42 years. Microsoft took 44 years.
20
00:01:20.625 --> 00:01:21.925
Bitcoin became a $1,000,000,000,000
21
00:01:22.785 --> 00:01:23.845
digital monetary
22
00:01:24.145 --> 00:01:25.685
network in 12 years.
23
00:01:26.305 --> 00:01:28.330
And so the world needs this
24
00:01:28.810 --> 00:01:32.590
thing and and, I think you can expect that we'll have a 1000000000 people
25
00:01:33.050 --> 00:01:34.350
storing their value,
26
00:01:34.650 --> 00:01:44.085
in essence, a savings account on a mobile device within 5 years, and they're gonna wanna use something like Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the dominant digital monetary network.
27
00:02:29.485 --> 00:02:30.705
Well, hey there, freaks.
28
00:02:31.325 --> 00:02:36.305
It's Matt O'Dell here for another episode of Citadel Dispatch. This is episode 10,
29
00:02:37.830 --> 00:02:39.450
on the backs of a
30
00:02:40.070 --> 00:02:41.690
bloody day in the markets,
31
00:02:42.150 --> 00:02:44.490
with Bitcoin price down double digits.
32
00:02:46.005 --> 00:02:50.185
Well, we're here to talk about more than just price on Citadel dispatch.
33
00:02:50.565 --> 00:02:53.305
I'm here with Craig Raw and econoalchemist,
34
00:02:54.390 --> 00:02:57.930
and we're gonna be talking about Bitcoin self custody, security, and privacy.
35
00:02:58.709 --> 00:03:02.650
It's come to my attention that a lot of people in the new class of Bitcoiners
36
00:03:04.715 --> 00:03:07.855
do not realize the gravity of of
37
00:03:09.435 --> 00:03:12.975
of of the custodial risk that they face when they use these custodial products.
38
00:03:13.810 --> 00:03:17.030
I don't think that established Bitcoiners realize,
39
00:03:17.970 --> 00:03:21.269
how much occasion needs to be placed, in terms of
40
00:03:21.925 --> 00:03:26.665
talking about why self custody is important and making it easier for people to use self custody
41
00:03:26.965 --> 00:03:29.785
and helping with that education effort as well.
42
00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:34.660
Tomorrow, I will be doing a livestream with Pete Rizzo,
43
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.540
with with Bitcoin Magazine,
44
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.240
to
45
00:03:39.105 --> 00:03:48.645
for the anniversary of Mt. Gox. 7 years ago, Mt. Gox went down, and a lot of people lost a lot of Bitcoin that is worth a lot more today than it was back then,
46
00:03:49.010 --> 00:03:50.630
that probably wished that they,
47
00:03:50.930 --> 00:03:54.310
you know, practice self custody at the time. So definitely go and check that out.
48
00:03:55.730 --> 00:03:58.364
As for our guests here today, by the way,
49
00:03:58.825 --> 00:04:01.724
shout out to all the freaks that are joining us here live in the chat.
50
00:04:02.825 --> 00:04:08.019
I love our Bitcoin Tuesdays together, so cheers to you. Our guests here today are Craig Rauh.
51
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.260
Craig Rauh is the lead maintainer of Sparrow Wallet,
52
00:04:13.645 --> 00:04:16.145
a wallet that frankly came out of nowhere,
53
00:04:16.605 --> 00:04:19.185
and blew me away and others away. I I
54
00:04:19.645 --> 00:04:23.990
I we haven't really heard him much on any of the podcast. I don't think he's ever been on the podcast.
55
00:04:24.849 --> 00:04:26.949
So I'm pretty excited to have this conversation.
56
00:04:28.210 --> 00:04:30.389
And we're also joined by Econo Alchemist,
57
00:04:30.770 --> 00:04:31.669
who is
58
00:04:33.475 --> 00:04:36.055
more focused on content and guides
59
00:04:36.595 --> 00:04:40.135
and blowing things up and lighting things on fire. And
60
00:04:40.690 --> 00:04:44.550
his videos are just really exciting. And he focuses a lot on no KYC,
61
00:04:46.050 --> 00:04:47.510
running at home for no KYC.
62
00:04:48.705 --> 00:04:53.285
And I just think we're gonna have a really great conversation here. So with that said,
63
00:04:55.265 --> 00:04:57.605
let's start with you, Craig. Did I miss anything?
64
00:04:59.230 --> 00:05:01.410
No. Thanks, Matt. Honored to be on the show.
65
00:05:01.870 --> 00:05:03.410
As you say, this is,
66
00:05:03.710 --> 00:05:05.170
my first part. So,
67
00:05:05.710 --> 00:05:06.210
yeah,
68
00:05:07.014 --> 00:05:09.115
really keen to get into it and
69
00:05:09.655 --> 00:05:10.474
talk Bitcoin.
70
00:05:14.389 --> 00:05:15.849
Awesome. What's up, Hugo?
71
00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:18.409
Good afternoon.
72
00:05:18.710 --> 00:05:22.169
It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on.
73
00:05:22.765 --> 00:05:23.265
And
74
00:05:23.805 --> 00:05:27.185
like you, I was also blown away the first time I used Spare Wallet.
75
00:05:28.285 --> 00:05:31.185
So I'm very excited to be having this discussion.
76
00:05:32.050 --> 00:05:32.550
And,
77
00:05:33.970 --> 00:05:34.470
yeah,
78
00:05:34.930 --> 00:05:36.069
let's dive in.
79
00:05:37.330 --> 00:05:38.150
Fuck. Yes.
80
00:05:40.005 --> 00:05:41.285
So, I mean, I like to just
81
00:05:42.085 --> 00:05:44.185
let's just go right off the bat. You know?
82
00:05:44.485 --> 00:05:51.120
First of all, all the freaks in the comments, you know the deal. We got the evil empire price on top. That's a Coinbase pro price.
83
00:05:52.139 --> 00:05:54.000
Underneath, we have the bisque price.
84
00:05:54.435 --> 00:05:58.855
I forgot to mention for the for the listeners who are coming into the podcast feed,
85
00:05:59.555 --> 00:06:04.700
that was in the beginning, that was CNBC. That was our boy Joe Kern talking to Michael Saylor of MicroStrategy,
86
00:06:06.200 --> 00:06:07.100
about Bitcoin,
87
00:06:08.280 --> 00:06:11.815
as as the price was dumping. So you you see the price dump there.
88
00:06:12.135 --> 00:06:14.475
He has as much conviction as he always has,
89
00:06:14.935 --> 00:06:16.875
which is way more than most people.
90
00:06:18.375 --> 00:06:18.875
And,
91
00:06:19.575 --> 00:06:24.410
so yeah. So let's just let's just jump in let's just jump into this. Sparrow Wallet,
92
00:06:25.910 --> 00:06:28.410
well, you know, what was the inspiration for Sparrow?
93
00:06:29.425 --> 00:06:32.565
I feel like you kinda just came out of nowhere, Craig, and,
94
00:06:33.985 --> 00:06:35.605
you know, give us give
95
00:06:36.050 --> 00:06:37.110
a why Sparrow,
96
00:06:37.570 --> 00:06:39.830
and why should people consider using it?
97
00:06:41.170 --> 00:06:42.390
Yeah. So,
98
00:06:43.194 --> 00:06:45.275
you know, I think that there have been a lot of,
99
00:06:45.595 --> 00:06:46.815
sort of iterations
100
00:06:47.354 --> 00:06:47.854
in
101
00:06:48.235 --> 00:06:50.655
the the Bitcoin world in terms of
102
00:06:51.220 --> 00:07:01.745
securing and storing your Bitcoin, your stash. And, you know, I think if if we go back, we sort of it goes back a long way, but I'm just gonna start with, you know, the first hardware wallets
103
00:07:02.525 --> 00:07:05.025
Trezor coming out. I mean, clearly, that was
104
00:07:05.805 --> 00:07:14.930
something that has changed, you know, the way that we see see things, and, you know, we've had many great hardware wallets since. Then after that, I think, you know, we've got
105
00:07:15.790 --> 00:07:25.995
multisig, which, again, just, you know, really makes things so much more secure, and you can really just do you know, you you have to worry about a lot lot less.
106
00:07:26.375 --> 00:07:27.595
And then sort of towards
107
00:07:28.130 --> 00:07:28.950
the end of,
108
00:07:30.450 --> 00:07:35.430
you know, I'm not sure if it was about a year a year ago, I was just listening to Michael Flaxman
109
00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:39.725
on the Stefan Levera part, and he was talking about multi vendor,
110
00:07:40.665 --> 00:07:41.165
multi
111
00:07:41.545 --> 00:07:46.365
seg, and for me, that really just seemed like almost the next step step up. So
112
00:07:47.060 --> 00:07:49.480
I was quite inspired to give it a go,
113
00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:54.280
and the only real tool we had at the time was to use Electrum,
114
00:07:54.985 --> 00:07:58.604
and it wasn't easy. It was, you know, it was a real
115
00:07:58.985 --> 00:08:02.365
difficult journey, and I had to write some code to do it, and it was just,
116
00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.940
the whole thing just left me feeling pretty uncertain about,
117
00:08:08.280 --> 00:08:14.285
being able to reproduce this or explain this to other people, and I just felt that there was a gap in the market for that.
118
00:08:15.465 --> 00:08:20.045
So, you know, it it was it was really just driven by the idea of, you know, having
119
00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:27.780
done this for myself, and kind of wanting to make it easier for others, and frankly, making it wanting to make it easier for myself to do
120
00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:30.005
in future, and less kind of
121
00:08:30.965 --> 00:08:36.505
prone to, you know, making mistakes because I've typed some something wrong on the command line or whatever.
122
00:08:37.285 --> 00:08:38.905
So that's kind of where I began.
123
00:08:39.285 --> 00:08:43.290
It was around a year a year ago that I began to write,
124
00:08:43.670 --> 00:08:44.170
and,
125
00:08:44.870 --> 00:08:46.890
yeah, it's just been a a great
126
00:08:47.455 --> 00:08:51.075
journey. You know, I've been wanting to get into the Bitcoin world for,
127
00:08:52.255 --> 00:08:54.320
you know, 7, 8 years years now.
128
00:08:54.800 --> 00:09:02.100
Just being, you know, like most of the freaks, just, you know, consuming Bitcoin content every day, just living in that world,
129
00:09:02.745 --> 00:09:11.240
you know, with a day day job that, you know, takes up my time, but just really just wanting to spend more time on it. And I finally got the chance to do that,
130
00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:19.080
and it was just a, yeah, just a great journey to kind of go into it and fully get into all of the concepts and
131
00:09:19.595 --> 00:09:21.615
and and kind of make make it happen.
132
00:09:21.995 --> 00:09:22.495
So,
133
00:09:23.355 --> 00:09:24.415
yeah, it's it's
134
00:09:24.875 --> 00:09:26.495
largely about trying to
135
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:27.460
provide,
136
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:30.980
freaks with the ability to
137
00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:31.860
really
138
00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:32.740
self
139
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:43.885
store their stash, you know, to really be sovereign over it. That's what Spiro's mission is, and that's what I'm keen to keep going down the road road on. So
140
00:09:44.839 --> 00:09:45.740
that's yeah.
141
00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:48.620
So you made an interesting point there. I mean,
142
00:09:49.079 --> 00:09:52.940
as a Bitcoiner, as a public Bitcoiner focused on education,
143
00:09:53.774 --> 00:09:59.074
We've talked a lot about multisig. We I talk a lot about self custody, trying to improve your custody. And
144
00:09:59.375 --> 00:10:01.134
a lot of us, I feel like, hit the same
145
00:10:01.770 --> 00:10:09.230
we a lot of us hit the same wall about and I wouldn't be surprised if Econo Alchemist is the same with him. We hit the same wall, like, 2 years ago.
146
00:10:09.895 --> 00:10:12.235
I was like, Electrum's the best thing there is
147
00:10:12.695 --> 00:10:13.195
available.
148
00:10:14.215 --> 00:10:15.915
It's too complicated to use.
149
00:10:16.455 --> 00:10:20.480
It requires you to, you know, set up an Electrum personal server,
150
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:23.939
and and if you wanna use your own node with it,
151
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:33.825
and that is too complicated for people to use. And not and I don't wanna say too complicated in, like, the no corner, like or, like, the Peter McCormick sense or something like that, but just in in the sense that
152
00:10:34.170 --> 00:10:39.310
you wanna reduce you wanna reduce the friction of best practices as much as possible. Like, you you can
153
00:10:39.690 --> 00:10:48.204
personal responsibility will always be the more difficult option. You know, people that want no responsibility whatsoever, like, yeah, that'll always be more convenient, that'll always be easier,
154
00:10:48.904 --> 00:10:52.285
but we can make it so that best practices with personal responsibility
155
00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:54.740
is as frictionless
156
00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:56.340
as possible,
157
00:10:57.040 --> 00:10:58.340
as easy as possible.
158
00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:02.260
And so I feel like we a bunch of us all hit the same point.
159
00:11:03.515 --> 00:11:11.695
Since then, there's been a couple big ones that have have released. I I would say the 3 big ones, at least in the desktop world,
160
00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:13.140
were,
161
00:11:14.660 --> 00:11:15.160
Caravan
162
00:11:15.860 --> 00:11:16.920
and then Spectre,
163
00:11:17.620 --> 00:11:20.600
Sparrow with you. And then on the in the mobile world, BlueWallet,
164
00:11:22.135 --> 00:11:24.154
you know, has come, like, a really far away.
165
00:11:24.615 --> 00:11:29.675
And I feel like they all try to address the same issue where you have this super powerful Electrum,
166
00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:34.080
but it's just really complicated for individuals to use. Now Spectre
167
00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:41.464
has gotten a lot of love, and I've especially for me as well, very you know, I I use Spectre. I recommend Spectre.
168
00:11:42.245 --> 00:11:45.385
Spectre decided, you know, we're gonna completely take away
169
00:11:46.325 --> 00:11:46.825
the
170
00:11:47.589 --> 00:11:58.475
the need for an Electrum personal server. So we we we completely remove Electrum for the equation. You run Bitcoin Core either locally or on a remote machine, and then you connect directly to Bitcoin Core,
171
00:11:58.935 --> 00:12:03.035
through the Spectre interface. And Spectre kinda, like, hides a lot of things from you. It's almost,
172
00:12:04.140 --> 00:12:06.800
you know, to make it user friendly. This is, like, clean,
173
00:12:08.140 --> 00:12:09.839
like, new age type of interface.
174
00:12:10.885 --> 00:12:11.625
With Sparrow,
175
00:12:13.445 --> 00:12:19.865
you kinda did 2 things. First of all, you can still use it as just an Electrum front end with the typical Electrum back ends.
176
00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:24.170
You recently added the support for core, but it's almost like a different
177
00:12:25.430 --> 00:12:32.235
it it's it's it's super performant. It has all of these, you know, power user features,
178
00:12:32.935 --> 00:12:39.959
but it it kinda and it has a beautiful interface. Like, it looks gorgeous. I put it up on the screen. Like, look at this thing. It it looks gorgeous,
179
00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:41.080
but
180
00:12:41.540 --> 00:12:42.520
you can't say
181
00:12:43.060 --> 00:12:47.560
it's it's not it expects a lot of its user. It expect more of its user than the Spectre.
182
00:12:48.185 --> 00:12:51.325
Would you what do you think of that of of that breakdown?
183
00:12:52.825 --> 00:12:55.645
Yeah. I I I kind of agree. You know, when
184
00:12:56.345 --> 00:12:57.405
when you had
185
00:12:59.000 --> 00:12:59.500
MBK,
186
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:08.145
Rodolfo on, 2 weeks back, he said something which I really agree with. He said, you know, you don't get to avoid
187
00:13:08.765 --> 00:13:12.705
the need to understand things. You know, you you you don't, as a Bitcoiner,
188
00:13:13.085 --> 00:13:15.540
take self custody and self responsibility
189
00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:18.100
over your wealth, and then just
190
00:13:18.640 --> 00:13:19.620
kind of somehow
191
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:20.580
expect
192
00:13:21.185 --> 00:13:27.285
to have it all work out fine if you don't put any effort in. And I think that that's something that I really believe believe in.
193
00:13:28.650 --> 00:13:36.030
You know, I I understand that that might not be a use that's held by everyone, but I kind of want Sparrow to
194
00:13:36.705 --> 00:13:40.085
be the the application for those people who really
195
00:13:40.545 --> 00:13:48.080
who really want and need to know what is going on under the hood. So, you know, let's let's go all the way to the the fact that I show by default
196
00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:53.040
the the actual hex code of the transaction that you're about to send out.
197
00:13:53.365 --> 00:13:55.845
You know, why did I do that? Well, it's because
198
00:13:56.725 --> 00:13:59.365
let's imagine, for example, that you are,
199
00:14:00.850 --> 00:14:05.590
looking after your family's wealth, and you've got it sitting in 1 or 2 or 3 UTXOs,
200
00:14:06.050 --> 00:14:07.270
and you need to,
201
00:14:08.290 --> 00:14:09.270
let's say that
202
00:14:10.175 --> 00:14:19.360
Taproot is activated, and you want to sweep those UTXOs into your brand new Taproot wallet to take advantage of all the great new features that's coming.
203
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.180
Now when you have to send that
204
00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:25.060
transaction with your family's wealth in it,
205
00:14:26.160 --> 00:15:02.840
that's a high stress moment for any Bitcoin coin coin. And and for me, that was really what I was kind of being driven by was was how do I reduce that high stress? How do I take the stress out of that? And you can, if you want to, just put your trust in the wallet and say, you know what? I think this wallet has done me well thus far, and I'm just gonna click the button. But for me, that wasn't enough. And, I kind of wanted to build a wallet that allows people who who are paranoid, who are just like, I have to make sure that this goes goes right because there is no backup if I make a mistake. And that's that's the kind of user that
206
00:15:03.395 --> 00:15:05.095
Sparrow is really designed for.
207
00:15:09.395 --> 00:15:11.175
Yeah. I mean I agree a 100%.
208
00:15:12.035 --> 00:15:15.230
Oh, awesome. Yeah. I wanna hear, Iko, what do you think here?
209
00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:19.709
Well, yeah. I mean, first, just to go back a little bit, Electrum,
210
00:15:20.185 --> 00:15:25.644
I had a lot of trouble with that. I've used it a little bit for doing some PSBT signing
211
00:15:26.264 --> 00:15:30.090
or generating the PSBT and then signing with my cold card, but,
212
00:15:30.650 --> 00:15:33.070
I've never implemented it successfully.
213
00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:38.990
So when I had the chance to set Sparrow up with my
214
00:15:40.145 --> 00:15:40.645
Raspberry
215
00:15:41.105 --> 00:15:42.725
Pi running Bitcoin Core,
216
00:15:43.345 --> 00:15:47.045
yeah, dude, it it just worked, and it and it was really beautifully
217
00:15:47.585 --> 00:15:48.085
done.
218
00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:49.029
And,
219
00:15:51.089 --> 00:15:54.870
to what Craig was just saying about that high stress moment, like,
220
00:15:55.715 --> 00:16:02.855
yeah. Like, if if I'm sending a lot of value with Bitcoin, like, I pour over every detail
221
00:16:03.510 --> 00:16:08.170
multiple times, and it takes me, like, an hour and a half to do a single transaction
222
00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:10.835
just because I know if I fuck it up,
223
00:16:11.395 --> 00:16:17.895
that's it. And that and that's part of that radical responsibility you gotta take when you're responsible for
224
00:16:18.490 --> 00:16:19.710
your wealth like that.
225
00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:22.990
And, so I I really appreciate developers
226
00:16:23.850 --> 00:16:24.970
like Craig, who,
227
00:16:25.690 --> 00:16:27.790
who who think about that and
228
00:16:28.185 --> 00:16:29.885
and implement those
229
00:16:30.584 --> 00:16:32.205
improvements for the end user.
230
00:16:35.520 --> 00:16:41.540
And and one other thing I wanted to say too is that, I I think a lot of great projects come up because
231
00:16:42.135 --> 00:16:45.115
the developers are trying to build the tools that they wanna use.
232
00:16:45.655 --> 00:16:55.480
Samura Wallet's a good example. And, you know, like you were saying, Craig, with Sparrow Wallet, I just I think some of the best tools we've seen have come from people who are just making something that they wanted.
233
00:17:03.435 --> 00:17:05.455
So freaks, I am currently
234
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:10.440
staying in a cabin in the woods, and my Internet connection has a lot of latency.
235
00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:11.800
So I apologize
236
00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:15.720
ahead of time if I talk over anyone or if they talk over me.
237
00:17:16.945 --> 00:17:19.765
We needed to get the they must go on, so here we are.
238
00:17:20.625 --> 00:17:23.845
So, yeah, I mean, I I a 100% agree, Iko. Like, I think,
239
00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:34.409
you know, especially with open source software, what you do see is you see, you know, the best software is the one that's being built by people who wanna use it themselves.
240
00:17:34.795 --> 00:17:36.335
It's the ultimate incentive.
241
00:17:36.635 --> 00:17:38.975
I wanna make something really clear to the freaks.
242
00:17:39.595 --> 00:17:42.015
It's really important that we have multiple
243
00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:45.559
projects that are there's that are good projects,
244
00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:49.640
that are well run projects that that are good
245
00:17:51.015 --> 00:17:51.755
be because
246
00:17:52.615 --> 00:17:57.515
be if if we have multiple, it allows you to verify against each other.
247
00:17:58.055 --> 00:17:59.195
If you do not,
248
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.260
have the wherewithal to actually
249
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.180
verify the code base.
250
00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:07.540
So a perfect example is if you're running a Spectre stack
251
00:18:09.285 --> 00:18:13.785
or an Electrum stack, and then you also verify on a separate computer that is,
252
00:18:14.725 --> 00:18:15.705
running Sparrow.
253
00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:22.000
And, also, just in general, it's just good to peep for people to have options. I want I want people to have as many options as possible.
254
00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:24.720
So I just wanna go back a little bit.
255
00:18:25.945 --> 00:18:29.325
We can get, like, deeper into the Sparrow conversation. I think we should.
256
00:18:29.945 --> 00:18:32.445
I also wanna talk a lot about Samurai because,
257
00:18:33.710 --> 00:18:35.970
Iko just released a bunch of guides about
258
00:18:36.350 --> 00:18:38.130
Samurai's collaborative spends.
259
00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:40.289
But before we do that,
260
00:18:42.465 --> 00:18:50.725
I you know? So, Craig, like, you really you really impressed me. Like, I feel like you're a very underappreciated Bitcoiner. I just wanted to say I appreciate you.
261
00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:53.980
Thank you for Sparrow Wallet. It caught me off guard,
262
00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:58.620
and I pay a fucking ton ton of attention in the space,
263
00:18:59.135 --> 00:19:00.674
and it just literally just
264
00:19:01.375 --> 00:19:04.995
it just completely blindsided me in, like, the best way possible.
265
00:19:05.695 --> 00:19:06.995
So cheers to that.
266
00:19:07.695 --> 00:19:08.434
I want,
267
00:19:09.169 --> 00:19:12.950
and I think you have very interesting takes. So I I I wanna hear
268
00:19:13.409 --> 00:19:18.070
for the freaks, especially the new freaks that might be joining us, you know, the relatively new Bitcoiners,
269
00:19:21.045 --> 00:19:25.305
Explain to them why it is so fucking important that they don't leave their Bitcoin
270
00:19:25.900 --> 00:19:29.360
on the exchange they bought it on or put it into, like, a BlockFi
271
00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:30.240
custodial,
272
00:19:31.260 --> 00:19:36.265
like, KYC product? Like, why should they care enough to hold their own keys?
273
00:19:37.605 --> 00:19:38.985
Well, I mean, you know,
274
00:19:39.925 --> 00:19:40.665
if you
275
00:19:41.090 --> 00:19:50.065
if you don't hold your own keys, you just have an IOU. Right? Which is all that you really have in the Fiat world anyway. Right? You just have this IOU from from the bank.
276
00:19:50.544 --> 00:19:51.044
And,
277
00:19:51.745 --> 00:20:03.320
frankly, if you're looking at an exchange, they're not even governed by the same regulations that banks are. So you have even less guarantees around that particular IOU. And, you know, you have the capability
278
00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:08.625
with Bitcoin to bypass that. And in the field world, you don't, unless you take it out in cash.
279
00:20:09.105 --> 00:20:16.625
And in India, that even that didn't really work. So, you know, it's it's you you have this incredible tool. And, you know, to not
280
00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.960
it's not to hold it in your own keys, to not take self custody
281
00:20:21.340 --> 00:20:28.044
of it and take advantage of all of the advantages that that gives gives you of being able to travel with it anywhere in the world,
282
00:20:28.345 --> 00:20:33.325
of being able to hold on to it through whatever so long as you don't make any mistakes.
283
00:20:33.705 --> 00:20:35.485
You know, I I think that it's
284
00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:39.470
it's a trade off, but I think it's one that's really worth taking. And,
285
00:20:39.929 --> 00:20:46.184
to to not take it or not even start going down that road and trying to learn more, I think, is a huge mistake.
286
00:20:46.485 --> 00:20:49.544
So that's kind of how I see it is, you know, it's
287
00:20:49.924 --> 00:20:55.225
a journey, and and I I know that it scares a lot of people off, and they, you know, really are
288
00:20:55.750 --> 00:20:57.930
looking at it and they're thinking there's so much
289
00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:06.225
to understand here. It's just beyond me. But it's it's honestly not. You know, these tools are getting easier all the time, and you don't need
290
00:21:06.764 --> 00:21:15.060
to go all the way to, you know, the sort of golden class of multi vendor, multi sig. You can get there. You can take take your time. And
291
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:27.515
and, you know, just start that journey. That's that's my kind of message is is to at least make an attempt and begin and learn. And then when you're ready, start getting your coins off the exchange.
292
00:21:27.870 --> 00:21:28.370
I
293
00:21:28.750 --> 00:21:32.450
mean, but I that's very well said, but I mean, I'm I'm so
294
00:21:33.309 --> 00:21:36.130
extremely on the opposite side of of
295
00:21:37.165 --> 00:21:40.865
custodial risk, like, it's so against everything that Bitcoin is.
296
00:21:41.565 --> 00:21:42.705
I kind of,
297
00:21:44.580 --> 00:21:50.279
you know, I I feel like sometimes, especially our conversations that we have here on dispatch and we have on RHR
298
00:21:50.580 --> 00:22:04.650
and and we have on TFTC and Stefan has on his podcast, and we have on Twitter and shit. Like, we we overwhelm people. They think they have to be too complicated, you know, as you and Niko were saying earlier that you wanna double check every single thing before you send it.
299
00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:09.130
I almost, like, even if I was, like, an uneducated
300
00:22:10.110 --> 00:22:10.890
a a uneducated,
301
00:22:11.215 --> 00:22:13.155
like, a fresh but motivated user,
302
00:22:14.095 --> 00:22:19.640
just, like, immediately pull it out to a mobile wallet. Or is that would you, like like, I almost, like, I'd rather
303
00:22:20.340 --> 00:22:26.360
hot wallet risk than custodial risk. Am I at you know, I'm is my priorities misplaced here?
304
00:22:27.065 --> 00:22:30.205
No. Completely agree with you. Yeah. 100%.
305
00:22:31.705 --> 00:22:33.165
Get it off the exchange.
306
00:22:36.650 --> 00:22:40.830
Exactly. So, like like so that that's this is a pretty example to jump into it,
307
00:22:41.635 --> 00:22:51.450
Iko, because of of your work, with Samura Wallet and and making guides for Samura Wallet. Like, Samura Wallet is designed to be a very user friendly wallet.
308
00:22:51.830 --> 00:22:53.770
And, you know, is it,
309
00:22:55.350 --> 00:23:03.005
as secure for you know, if you wanna do, like, long term high value cold storage with, you know, multi sim, multi vendor,
310
00:23:04.825 --> 00:23:07.565
you know, using an an air gapped computer as well.
311
00:23:07.909 --> 00:23:14.390
You know, these are all additional things you could take. But if if just the average user is using something like Samura Wallet Hot Wallet on their phone,
312
00:23:16.005 --> 00:23:18.425
it's very accessible. Wouldn't wouldn't you agree?
313
00:23:18.885 --> 00:23:19.945
Dude, 100%.
314
00:23:20.485 --> 00:23:23.950
Yeah. I use Samura Wallet all the time on my Android.
315
00:23:24.330 --> 00:23:26.350
I use BlueWallet on my iPhone.
316
00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:29.950
Dude, and, yeah, I've got substantial
317
00:23:30.409 --> 00:23:32.270
amounts of value
318
00:23:33.034 --> 00:23:34.335
on both of those wallets.
319
00:23:35.755 --> 00:23:39.455
You know, I I'd like to use cold storage just as much as the next person.
320
00:23:39.835 --> 00:23:42.095
But, you know, I I think people
321
00:23:43.390 --> 00:23:43.890
discredit
322
00:23:44.190 --> 00:23:45.090
how secure
323
00:23:45.470 --> 00:23:47.410
that really is. I mean, with
324
00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:48.690
with SHA 256
325
00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:52.855
encryption, you're you're you're getting, like, military grade
326
00:23:53.475 --> 00:23:55.495
security by default. And
327
00:23:56.675 --> 00:24:12.075
I think I think people kinda freak themselves out because they're like, oh, I need to I need to run my own node before I before I self custody. I need to I need to, like, get a multisig set up, and they they just kinda freak themselves out and end up not doing anything,
328
00:24:12.455 --> 00:24:15.835
which is probably the worst decision they can make. You know, like,
329
00:24:17.110 --> 00:24:18.810
get the coins off an exchange,
330
00:24:19.350 --> 00:24:20.730
set up a mobile wallet,
331
00:24:21.030 --> 00:24:26.570
start with small amounts until you get more and more comfortable with it, and just start building from there.
332
00:24:27.825 --> 00:24:30.005
It doesn't have to be overly complicated.
333
00:24:30.785 --> 00:24:33.285
And, you know, one of my arguments,
334
00:24:34.490 --> 00:24:37.789
and I'm sure some holes can be poked in this, but, like,
335
00:24:38.409 --> 00:24:40.590
everyone knows where Satoshi Nakamoto's
336
00:24:41.450 --> 00:24:43.950
mining rewards were deposited to.
337
00:24:44.255 --> 00:24:46.195
Those aren't in a multisig wallet,
338
00:24:46.815 --> 00:24:47.315
and
339
00:24:48.095 --> 00:24:53.235
no one has cracked that code. Like, it it's it's totally secure there. You don't have to
340
00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:54.950
go
341
00:24:55.570 --> 00:24:57.190
so far as to
342
00:24:58.210 --> 00:25:02.790
get all these different hardware wallets and set up multisig to have really great security.
343
00:25:05.185 --> 00:25:06.085
But it's possible.
344
00:25:08.785 --> 00:25:12.165
If I can just add to that, you know, there there's one, I think, advantage
345
00:25:12.750 --> 00:25:23.075
of advising people to go and buy a hard hard hardware wallet, and it's got nothing to do with security that a hardware wallet offers. It has to do with the sort of human psychology
346
00:25:23.775 --> 00:25:25.395
of going out there and spending,
347
00:25:25.775 --> 00:25:30.659
you know, some money, and it's, you know, not not cheap for most people in this world,
348
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:45.995
you just take the whole thing a little bit more seriously. You know? I think that the the the by far the highest chance that any Bitcoiner has of losing their but Bitcoin is just, you know, their own their own sort of ability to lose keys or lose phones or
349
00:25:46.630 --> 00:25:52.890
whatever it is. And I I just kinda like the idea that if you've spent the money on the hard hardware wallets,
350
00:25:53.485 --> 00:26:01.025
you, you know, you've kind of made an investments in your mind, and now you're you're sort of taking the whole self custody thing a little bit more
351
00:26:02.490 --> 00:26:09.470
seriously. You know, you've got something you need to look after that's kind of unique in your world. So, anyway, just just a just a thought.
352
00:26:13.055 --> 00:26:15.875
Yeah. I I like that. And I I think that,
353
00:26:17.615 --> 00:26:18.195
you know,
354
00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:24.330
for myself, personally, I I definitely did find some security in the idea of having an air gapped device.
355
00:26:25.510 --> 00:26:26.410
But I think
356
00:26:27.595 --> 00:26:29.135
over time, as I understood
357
00:26:30.235 --> 00:26:34.655
how things worked a little bit better, I was more and more comfortable with the idea of having
358
00:26:35.149 --> 00:26:36.769
larger amounts of funds
359
00:26:37.470 --> 00:26:38.929
on a mobile phone.
360
00:26:40.830 --> 00:26:44.815
And and I I feel totally fine with it now. I'm I'm confident with that setup.
361
00:26:48.575 --> 00:26:51.154
So so there's a couple of things to unpack here.
362
00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:52.929
First of all,
363
00:26:53.549 --> 00:26:54.289
you misspoke,
364
00:26:55.470 --> 00:26:56.929
briefly there. You said sha256,
365
00:26:58.029 --> 00:26:59.250
it's a s 256
366
00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:00.690
encryption usually,
367
00:27:01.595 --> 00:27:02.895
but that doesn't really matter.
368
00:27:03.355 --> 00:27:04.015
The ink
369
00:27:04.315 --> 00:27:08.095
ink it's important that every every all important data should be encrypted.
370
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:17.299
You know, it makes it it makes it more secure. But but when we talk about hot wallet risk, what we're really talking about is the the risk is that it's on an online device,
371
00:27:18.005 --> 00:27:19.385
and that device either
372
00:27:19.845 --> 00:27:20.585
the app
373
00:27:20.965 --> 00:27:24.105
itself that you're using could receive a malicious update,
374
00:27:24.965 --> 00:27:30.870
or the software that it's running on top of could receive some kind of malicious update. Right? And you you come in,
375
00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:34.230
you know, an attacker comes in and
376
00:27:34.784 --> 00:27:47.410
compromise that underlying system, and then they they trick you into either, you know, sending a a transaction or they just, you know, pull out your funds, or they, like, key log you and and wait till you put in your pass raise or something like that to take your funds.
377
00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:49.090
So that's risk.
378
00:27:50.255 --> 00:27:56.355
You know, the risk is probably often overstated. I mean, if you talk about compared to custodial,
379
00:27:57.450 --> 00:28:05.470
if you could talk about compared to custodial risk, you already the hacker already has your funds. Right? They're the exchange. Like, there there's no you don't have the funds yet.
380
00:28:06.215 --> 00:28:09.115
So when you compare it to custodial risk, I think
381
00:28:09.655 --> 00:28:10.475
it's substantially
382
00:28:10.855 --> 00:28:13.915
less risk. It's it's one of those things that, like, we have,
383
00:28:15.100 --> 00:28:16.799
yes, if you have a compromised,
384
00:28:17.580 --> 00:28:26.865
you know, mobile wallet, then then you could have funds stolen. We have not never seen a major a major one, a major hack to happen on any of these, you know,
385
00:28:27.885 --> 00:28:28.385
respected
386
00:28:28.845 --> 00:28:29.745
mobile wallets,
387
00:28:30.445 --> 00:28:31.745
in the history of Bitcoin.
388
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:40.100
That doesn't mean it won't happen, but we haven't. We've seen tons of exchange closers, hacks. We've seen people get their accounts closed and stuff.
389
00:28:40.635 --> 00:28:42.895
So I think it's a significant step improvement.
390
00:28:44.155 --> 00:28:44.895
In practice,
391
00:28:45.355 --> 00:28:48.815
what does a hardware wallet help with and Airgap help with?
392
00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:51.540
Airgap specifically helps with,
393
00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:53.460
the fact that
394
00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:57.060
the attacker needs to get access to the device
395
00:28:57.365 --> 00:29:03.705
usually or the air gapped computer. It's not connected to the Internet. So you know even if you're the dumbest computer user ever,
396
00:29:04.005 --> 00:29:05.945
you know if it's not connected to the Internet,
397
00:29:06.289 --> 00:29:10.149
they probably have to come into your home or your office or whatever to
398
00:29:10.610 --> 00:29:11.909
to to to compromise.
399
00:29:12.929 --> 00:29:16.765
The exception to that rule is twofold. The software that you used
400
00:29:18.825 --> 00:29:27.330
and if you update the hardware wallet, which is why it's important that people learn how to verify things, but they don't. You know, people don't. So it is what it is, but that that that is
401
00:29:27.790 --> 00:29:30.690
there you still have that attack vector there. Now
402
00:29:31.405 --> 00:29:40.305
what how does a hardware wallet help there? What really helps, I've noticed, is with Coldcard and I've just decided I I used to say, you know, use a treasure or ledger,
403
00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:51.215
if you're if you're a new user and then move up to Coldcard. I've decided that people should just go straight to Coldcard. Fuck it. If you're gonna use a hardware wallet, use Coldcard. The idea is instead of
404
00:29:51.755 --> 00:29:53.615
setting up a clean computer,
405
00:29:55.115 --> 00:30:06.885
that is air gapped and you don't think it's compromised, which is a very difficult thing for people to do, the cold card acts as your air gapped device as your air gapped computer. It's a purpose built small little computer. Now
406
00:30:07.665 --> 00:30:11.125
if you use that they don't make their own software. So if you use that with Sparrow
407
00:30:12.465 --> 00:30:13.525
and you're verifying
408
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:20.340
all everything that's happening on the cold card screen and you're verifying everything that's happening on on Sparrow on your computer,
409
00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:22.305
then you're
410
00:30:22.705 --> 00:30:31.845
essentially creating a situation, right, where you you need you need an attack an attacker has to compromise both. They have to compromise both the cold cards update mechanism,
411
00:30:32.420 --> 00:30:37.000
and they have to comp compromise Sparrow Wallet to to display it incorrectly.
412
00:30:37.620 --> 00:30:40.760
So you you add that that by adding that second,
413
00:30:41.995 --> 00:30:57.520
you know, that that combination attack, attackers will just go for the lowest hanging fruit, and that's what we see. Right? We see in practice. We can talk all day about all this shit, and in practice, what happens? In practice, the attackers just, you know, get people they trick people into just putting their seed into, a web page.
414
00:31:05.809 --> 00:31:06.309
Yeah.
415
00:31:07.809 --> 00:31:10.070
Sorry for misspeaking about that encryption,
416
00:31:11.010 --> 00:31:13.110
but I, you know, I do see your point,
417
00:31:13.565 --> 00:31:14.065
and,
418
00:31:15.485 --> 00:31:19.025
and I agree. I I think they do go after low hanging fruit and
419
00:31:20.510 --> 00:31:23.890
and get people to make critical mistakes like that.
420
00:31:26.350 --> 00:31:29.890
I guess maybe I did downplay the risk a little bit with the hot device.
421
00:31:33.645 --> 00:31:36.145
I do feel comfortable with it, though. And
422
00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:46.425
Yeah. I think that one of the Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, Matt. No. No. Go. Go. I wanna hear I wanna hear your take, Craig. Hit us.
423
00:31:46.965 --> 00:31:48.745
I think one of the difficulties,
424
00:31:49.205 --> 00:32:01.720
you know, that we have is is that when we talk about these these things, there's such a wide audience. You know, we've got people who are literally coming in having never considered holding Bitcoin, and, you know, last week, they bought their first stats.
425
00:32:02.419 --> 00:32:05.945
And then you've got people in the audience who have been doing this for, like, you
426
00:32:06.245 --> 00:32:10.985
know, 5, 6, 7 years and just kinda know everything. I mean, that's a huge range,
427
00:32:12.005 --> 00:32:17.550
of people that, you know, to talk talk to. So it's it's really hard to kind of say, well,
428
00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:18.590
you know,
429
00:32:19.130 --> 00:32:36.480
there's this von von vulnerability or there's this approach or that that that approach. I mean, my my sort of view is, you know, if you've just bought and you've managed to get your coins off the exchange, you're doing great. Like, well done. You know, pat yourself self on the back. All of the people, you know, all of the the talk around,
430
00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:45.425
the things that can go wrong, that's all very valid. You shouldn't completely ignore it, but don't let it put you off. Don't let it sort of throw you off the trail
431
00:32:45.725 --> 00:32:46.945
of figuring out
432
00:32:47.300 --> 00:32:49.000
how to make yourself more
433
00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:49.880
secure.
434
00:32:50.180 --> 00:33:07.090
The second thing is, you know, you kind of know in your own guts when you need to upgrade your your you know, how secure your setup is. You know, if you're lying awake thinking to yourself, well, that hot wallet, it's kind of the price has gone up. I'm not too sure whether
435
00:33:07.870 --> 00:33:20.235
that's a safe place for me anymore. You kind of have that feel yourself, and you should you should listen to that, and you should let that drive you to do more education, and then finally choose on something which is better. But, you know, don't rush into anything.
436
00:33:20.659 --> 00:33:22.039
Take your time, you know.
437
00:33:22.340 --> 00:33:44.240
Educate yourself. It's very unlikely that whatever you have today is going to fall over tomorrow. You know? So just it's almost sort of a peace of mind thing. You know? If you're if you're battling to sleep sleep at night or whatever because you're you're holding too much value in a setup that you don't feel is all that secure anymore, that's the time to kind of start working on it, I think.
438
00:33:48.095 --> 00:33:49.634
I think that's solid advice.
439
00:33:51.855 --> 00:33:57.700
And and yeah. That that is fantastic advice, and that's why I wanted you wanted you on the show so badly.
440
00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:58.960
I,
441
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.659
I I I think,
442
00:34:01.679 --> 00:34:09.605
you know, the other, like, the other thing people like, I I don't want you, Eko, to I didn't mean to like, you shouldn't.
443
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:12.380
Hot wallets have a place,
444
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:13.579
and they're
445
00:34:14.359 --> 00:34:33.030
in practice, especially if you verify your software releases, and you check on, you know, to make sure that that it's actually the release that the developer has has released. And in that case, you're still trusting the developer, but you you're checking that, a malicious entity hasn't stepped in between you and the developer and given you a a bad copy of the software,
446
00:34:34.815 --> 00:34:41.555
are significantly more secure than people lead them to believe. And especially if you're gonna use something like Lightning or CoinJoin,
447
00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:46.440
you have no choice. You're going to be using a a Hot Wallet for that.
448
00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:49.800
And people get very very scared about that,
449
00:34:50.740 --> 00:34:51.240
but
450
00:34:51.745 --> 00:34:53.605
I personally have had significant
451
00:34:53.905 --> 00:34:55.285
funds in Hot Wallet
452
00:34:55.985 --> 00:34:59.685
and, you know, in Whirlpool's liquidity pool, in Whirlpool's privacy pool.
453
00:35:00.410 --> 00:35:02.030
And right now, if you
454
00:35:02.330 --> 00:35:04.750
if you look at, Clark Moody's dashboard,
455
00:35:05.930 --> 00:35:06.430
the,
456
00:35:07.425 --> 00:35:11.525
well, what is it? It's like a 2,000 Bitcoin right now or something like that.
457
00:35:11.825 --> 00:35:21.730
And then if you talk about on the Lightning side, it's like at, like, the public capacity is like at a 1,000 Bitcoin or something like that. So those are those are Bitcoins that we know for sure are in hot wallets,
458
00:35:23.405 --> 00:35:26.705
and they haven't been compromised yet. So there's something to be said there. Right?
459
00:35:28.925 --> 00:35:30.945
Yeah. I I think so. And,
460
00:35:31.290 --> 00:35:34.430
you know, you know, I think the the bigger point is that you're
461
00:35:34.810 --> 00:35:37.630
you're taking more risk by keeping your coins
462
00:35:38.089 --> 00:35:39.710
in someone else's possession.
463
00:35:40.385 --> 00:35:42.725
You're now subject to their permission,
464
00:35:44.225 --> 00:35:47.125
and you're at a much greater risk of being censored.
465
00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:52.890
That's just a way more precarious situation to be in
466
00:35:53.430 --> 00:35:55.050
than to have your funds
467
00:35:55.845 --> 00:35:58.025
in a hot wallet, I I think.
468
00:35:58.404 --> 00:36:00.424
At least with the hot wallet, it's like
469
00:36:01.684 --> 00:36:02.744
you're responsible
470
00:36:03.125 --> 00:36:08.950
for that. And if anything goes wrong, it's it's most likely your fault. And
471
00:36:09.650 --> 00:36:16.775
and and I think that's what a lot of people need to come to terms with is is taking that radical responsibility and just understanding,
472
00:36:17.875 --> 00:36:19.335
like, if if you get
473
00:36:20.035 --> 00:36:21.975
tricked, like, yeah, that sucks.
474
00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:24.359
But, really, it's your fault for
475
00:36:25.059 --> 00:36:27.720
typing that mnemonic phrase into the computer.
476
00:36:28.740 --> 00:36:29.240
And,
477
00:36:30.734 --> 00:36:32.835
like, you just gotta take responsibility
478
00:36:33.295 --> 00:36:35.155
and understand what you're doing. And
479
00:36:36.015 --> 00:36:42.710
I highly recommend just starting with small amounts and working your way up until you're more comfortable with this stuff and understand it better.
480
00:36:46.105 --> 00:36:48.125
Yep. That's very good advice,
481
00:36:48.585 --> 00:36:59.880
for sure. And you should always if you have a new setup of of any kind, you know, just test it with a few small amounts. Send some transactions in, send some transactions out, check everything, you know.
482
00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:03.000
I think the best advice is just really just to
483
00:37:03.875 --> 00:37:05.175
take some time to,
484
00:37:06.435 --> 00:37:07.095
you know,
485
00:37:07.795 --> 00:37:08.295
move
486
00:37:08.595 --> 00:37:09.095
any
487
00:37:09.474 --> 00:37:09.974
significant
488
00:37:10.915 --> 00:37:13.960
value to it. You know, don't rush into it, because
489
00:37:14.420 --> 00:37:16.840
the more you can learn, the safer you'll be.
490
00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:20.280
Yeah. Absolutely.
491
00:37:22.035 --> 00:37:24.695
I like what, so this is also 6102
492
00:37:25.075 --> 00:37:25.875
show because,
493
00:37:26.275 --> 00:37:27.015
he refuses.
494
00:37:27.395 --> 00:37:29.730
So we can talk about that, Craig. 6102
495
00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:33.230
thinks that you're a failure in in NIM Land,
496
00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:34.050
because,
497
00:37:34.510 --> 00:37:40.115
we're we're hearing your voice right now, and he refuses to dox his voice. So this is also 60 one zero two's show,
498
00:37:40.494 --> 00:37:46.355
because he joins us live in the chat to hit us with, questions and comments. And one thing he mentioned here,
499
00:37:47.230 --> 00:37:49.410
is is a simple thing you can do
500
00:37:49.710 --> 00:37:56.705
is just use multiple different types of wallets. Right? And even if they're not multisig, if they're single sig, multi you know, different types of wallets,
501
00:37:57.885 --> 00:38:04.785
you the the chances that you lose everything are are greatly diminished because you you would need multiple wallets to get screwed.
502
00:38:07.390 --> 00:38:08.849
Yeah. Sure. Sure.
503
00:38:10.430 --> 00:38:11.250
But, you know,
504
00:38:11.950 --> 00:38:13.970
you know, we can cert certainly,
505
00:38:14.285 --> 00:38:27.070
you know, talk about, you know, what it is to you know, what what the right choices are for those getting into it. But I think if we were to zoom out a bit and we see where Bitcoin what we all believe Bitcoin is likely to go in terms
506
00:38:27.609 --> 00:38:31.975
of value, I I I do think there's value in having discussion now
507
00:38:32.435 --> 00:38:39.300
about more advanced stuff. And I you know, it's it's not intended to put people off, but I I I do think we need to get into
508
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:42.740
what does ideal cold storage look like,
509
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:43.860
and,
510
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.500
you know, how how do we move
511
00:38:46.994 --> 00:38:48.775
forward on that goal? Because,
512
00:38:49.474 --> 00:38:52.214
you know, it could end up being that we're all holding
513
00:38:52.515 --> 00:38:53.654
significant value,
514
00:38:54.470 --> 00:38:57.370
you know, on on a level that we can't even really
515
00:38:57.670 --> 00:39:05.405
sort of imagine today. And and how are we gonna do that? You know? At that stage, a hot hot wallet is not gonna be the right right thing.
516
00:39:06.105 --> 00:39:08.045
How are we gonna protect ourselves against
517
00:39:08.585 --> 00:39:13.970
physical attacks? You know, those are those are the kind of things that I spend a lot of time thinking about.
518
00:39:14.590 --> 00:39:15.090
So,
519
00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:16.210
you know,
520
00:39:16.910 --> 00:39:19.650
again, we're talking to a very broad audience here,
521
00:39:20.605 --> 00:39:25.585
but, you know, I'd like to spend some time on that because I do think we need to
522
00:39:25.885 --> 00:39:32.200
at least talk about it so we can end up in the right right place at some point further down down down the path.
523
00:39:33.540 --> 00:39:34.660
A 100%, Craig.
524
00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:37.400
This is why I brought you on. I think I
525
00:39:37.745 --> 00:39:41.685
I I think in in Bitcoin land, it's important to be an adversarial thinker.
526
00:39:42.225 --> 00:39:45.365
In general, I think, a lot of shit corners miss that.
527
00:39:45.985 --> 00:39:46.565
You know,
528
00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:49.680
naivety is a liability in this industry,
529
00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:52.640
and I appreciated when you reached out to me,
530
00:39:53.180 --> 00:39:56.800
saying I wasn't being adversarial enough, which is always a good sign.
531
00:39:57.415 --> 00:40:03.595
So I I mean, what I wanted to do there was I I really wanted to unpack it for the freaks and go back, and then we come back.
532
00:40:04.055 --> 00:40:05.115
So now we're here.
533
00:40:06.630 --> 00:40:12.490
I have a feeling what we're about to talk about is is multi, you know, multi vendor, multi sig.
534
00:40:13.430 --> 00:40:18.434
And and I want you to just let's let's go. What do you what do you think is is
535
00:40:18.734 --> 00:40:23.155
the ideal path here? What what are Freaks looking at? I I think one thing people don't realize
536
00:40:23.855 --> 00:40:24.355
is,
537
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.060
they, like, kinda realize it, but they don't they don't put 2 and 2 together.
538
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:36.315
Most of us, I know myself, self, I know I'm gonna get both of you on the record whether or not you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.
539
00:40:36.775 --> 00:40:45.820
I mean, I I think we think Bitcoin is gonna go up significantly in value, and I think if you've been here for even a tiny bit, you realize that happens way
540
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.380
at a at a large you know, quicker pace and at a larger scale than you could ever fathom.
541
00:40:51.125 --> 00:40:59.785
So one thing that MBK often says is, you know, treat it like 10 x of of what it's currently, and I I think even more than that. You know, we we talked about Gox earlier,
542
00:41:01.330 --> 00:41:04.630
and I'm gonna have that live stream tomorrow about Gox. Like,
543
00:41:05.010 --> 00:41:08.070
those people, they lost their coins at $800 a coin.
544
00:41:08.815 --> 00:41:14.355
Even the most bullish people couldn't fathom that it was gonna be 50,000 that was gonna be $48,000
545
00:41:14.655 --> 00:41:17.090
and people are gonna be scared that it was dumping. Right?
546
00:41:17.810 --> 00:41:19.670
So like they couldn't fathom that shit.
547
00:41:20.050 --> 00:41:27.075
And and that's that's how we have to think about security going forward. So so let's jump in here, Craig. This is why I wanted you on the show.
548
00:41:28.035 --> 00:41:28.535
Cool.
549
00:41:28.994 --> 00:41:34.935
Yeah. So I mean, look, as I was saying earlier, I do think that multi vendor, multi sig is
550
00:41:35.329 --> 00:41:37.990
is currently the best you can can do,
551
00:41:38.369 --> 00:41:51.325
in a sort of general sense. I mean, there's always, you know, other ways to to kind of look look at look at things, but I think that that's gonna be the most common path, for people to kind of achieve the best cold storage that they can.
552
00:41:52.109 --> 00:41:58.930
Very briefly, why multi vendor? It's really because if there is a vulnerability in any specific vendor's product,
553
00:41:59.345 --> 00:42:01.525
you know, there's gonna have to be
554
00:42:01.865 --> 00:42:02.365
a,
555
00:42:02.705 --> 00:42:04.725
you know, something that can be,
556
00:42:05.185 --> 00:42:05.685
exploited
557
00:42:06.465 --> 00:42:06.965
in
558
00:42:07.265 --> 00:42:08.405
the other vendor's
559
00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:12.839
product at the same time. And the chances of this sort of multiplicative,
560
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:20.095
experience or kind of event happening is really so so low that you can
561
00:42:20.395 --> 00:42:24.095
you can almost rule that that sort of out. So, you know,
562
00:42:24.635 --> 00:42:41.255
it it sort of allows you to to worry so much less about which vendor I'm using and, you know, is Trezor you know, can you put it into a little box and get the sick sick secrets out, or is Ledger closed saucer? All of these things suddenly
563
00:42:42.035 --> 00:42:43.815
fade into the background because
564
00:42:44.210 --> 00:42:45.589
all of a sudden you're now
565
00:42:46.369 --> 00:42:58.625
just looking at you know, that have to find a way to exploit your treasure and your gold card at the same same time. And and there's just almost zero chance that that's ever gonna happen. It's already very hard to do 1. To do 2
566
00:42:59.325 --> 00:43:12.755
is, you know, you just multiply those two chances together, and you end up with an extremely small numb number. So that's really the basis of why that is, I think, the best way to get to, you know, really good cold store storage.
567
00:43:14.815 --> 00:43:15.395
You know,
568
00:43:15.775 --> 00:43:16.994
in terms of of
569
00:43:19.135 --> 00:43:27.450
the physical attack side of side of side of things, you know, I'm gonna dox myself even more more here and say that I live in South Africa,
570
00:43:27.965 --> 00:43:32.705
which is one of the, you know, the highest crime rates in the in the world. So
571
00:43:33.245 --> 00:43:43.240
the that's obviously not a good thing, but the one good thing that it it it is is that it's just that everyone lives here with this really sort of adversarial thinking in terms of physical attack.
572
00:43:44.435 --> 00:43:52.935
And, you know, one of the the best ways you can do you can avoid that as a bit Bitcoin corner, and I saw someone say it say it say it in the comments now,
573
00:43:53.270 --> 00:43:59.690
is really just making sure that your devices are spread over a large area so that you have to travel to those
574
00:44:00.285 --> 00:44:13.400
areas that it takes time to get there and that, hopefully, you can pass through some security checkpoints on on the way. And I think that that's a really important thing. It certainly makes my life feel better that I'm not sitting there
575
00:44:13.780 --> 00:44:17.484
wondering if someone's gonna on my door with a gun and say, you know,
576
00:44:17.865 --> 00:44:18.845
I'm going to,
577
00:44:19.145 --> 00:44:21.724
you know, do something really bad to you or your wife
578
00:44:22.105 --> 00:44:35.684
if you don't hand over your keys. So for me, that's pretty important, and I think it's a little bit under recognized in the Bitcoin world today. You know, I think that maybe it's just a point of view that I sort of have,
579
00:44:36.704 --> 00:44:38.484
because of where I live, but
580
00:44:39.025 --> 00:44:40.484
I can't see how
581
00:44:40.865 --> 00:44:44.140
it doesn't become a bigger threat as Bitcoin grows.
582
00:44:44.520 --> 00:44:48.940
And, you know, you might say, well, I'm, you know, making sure that I'm
583
00:44:49.480 --> 00:45:00.395
never doxing myself, and my address is always, and that's that's great. That's you should do do do that do that. But at some point, there's gonna be so many holders of bit Bitcoin, and it's gonna be such an easy
584
00:45:00.890 --> 00:45:12.245
or or sort of the easiest way to walk out of your home with the most value that I think that, you know, there will come a point in the future where these these kind of thoughts become fairly important. So that's kind of,
585
00:45:13.025 --> 00:45:21.099
my brief why multi vendor, multi seg. Look. The single let's forget multi vendor for a second. The single biggest
586
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.819
benefit of multi sig is physical attacks. Right?
587
00:45:28.095 --> 00:45:28.595
Agreed.
588
00:45:30.575 --> 00:45:31.075
Okay.
589
00:45:31.935 --> 00:45:32.435
2%
590
00:45:32.815 --> 00:45:42.980
massive improvement there that doesn't exist for anything non Bitcoin Bitcoin related. I mean, if if we talk about what people don't realize is when when self custody was big back in the Wild West days, like stagecoast
591
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:45.780
stagecoaches were getting robbed all the fucking time.
592
00:45:46.685 --> 00:45:49.745
You know, banks were getting robbed until just relatively recently.
593
00:45:50.125 --> 00:45:52.990
So now if you're your own bank, you have to do with that. Now, Craig,
594
00:45:53.470 --> 00:46:01.010
just one thing I would mention is I think one of the reasons we don't hear more about it is because we have a lot of big corners in America.
595
00:46:01.585 --> 00:46:05.684
In America, we have, you know, relatively low crime rates and high gun ownership.
596
00:46:06.545 --> 00:46:15.039
So that kind of mitigates it a tiny bit, but I I mean, multisig takes it to a whole another fucking level, and and it's actually even bigger than just multisig.
597
00:46:15.500 --> 00:46:16.000
Really,
598
00:46:17.155 --> 00:46:20.855
as a as a as a community, we need to make multisig
599
00:46:21.395 --> 00:46:23.815
the expected standard. It's almost like,
600
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:27.980
because because the attacker if the attacker's already in your home
601
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:33.645
and they're, like, you know, torturing you or, like, fuck you up, and they have a gun to your head,
602
00:46:33.965 --> 00:46:46.230
they might not they're that crazy person or that motivated person might not, you know, believe you at the time. Right? It's like, the the alarm systems when when you have something outside that says, you know, I own a dog or I have this alarm system.
603
00:46:47.810 --> 00:46:51.990
There's there's a there's I'm gonna trigger a lot of people. There's a herd immunity,
604
00:46:52.805 --> 00:46:58.185
in in Multisig. If if if the industry standard becomes Multisig,
605
00:46:59.204 --> 00:47:05.400
people won't even think about trying because they'll just assume that any average BitCorner is gonna be using multisig. Would you agree?
606
00:47:06.020 --> 00:47:18.135
Completely. Yeah. So that that's kind of where I want things to go. I know that they're not there today, and I certainly don't try and get anybody new into the space to do that. But I do think we need to talk talk about it because, you know,
607
00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:20.700
it's it's something that's brought immense
608
00:47:21.240 --> 00:47:31.965
peace of mind to my own own life. So, you know, I just want others to kind of share in that. And, you know, it's something you should work towards, I think. It's not that hard to do.
609
00:47:32.665 --> 00:47:37.870
It's not that expense expense expense to to do. And, you know, you should really just make sure that
610
00:47:38.270 --> 00:47:39.650
your home is not
611
00:47:40.430 --> 00:47:44.930
is not, like, the the complete answer to your your kind of
612
00:47:45.625 --> 00:47:48.285
personal wealth. There's not where you store everything, because
613
00:47:48.665 --> 00:47:52.204
it just makes you way too big a target target target. And,
614
00:47:52.670 --> 00:47:57.470
you know, there are some unpleasant people out there in the world who will take a bond bondage of it. There's
615
00:47:58.190 --> 00:48:01.090
it it really, I think, is just a matter of time before it becomes
616
00:48:01.390 --> 00:48:02.370
a bigger thing.
617
00:48:03.295 --> 00:48:05.395
Okay. So let's so we've,
618
00:48:06.815 --> 00:48:08.035
I would so,
619
00:48:08.815 --> 00:48:12.320
one thing we talk about on the show a lot, if you've listened in the past
620
00:48:13.200 --> 00:48:20.580
is this idea that I say self sovereign multisig, I've it was about 4 months ago, I said it's about 6 months away, like easy self sovereign multisig.
621
00:48:21.115 --> 00:48:22.175
And I I think
622
00:48:22.475 --> 00:48:26.015
there's a couple different concerns that people have here. So so unquestionably,
623
00:48:26.955 --> 00:48:32.930
if it's if all you care about is physical attacks, it's a significant improvement. No doubt about it. A 100% do it.
624
00:48:34.750 --> 00:48:35.250
The
625
00:48:36.244 --> 00:48:48.410
when I say self sovereign multisig, I'm differentiating from Unchained Capital or Casa where they have a they host a key for you and your pub keys for you, because in that case, you're giving up your privacy. And in that case,
626
00:48:49.670 --> 00:48:52.810
not only are there's a level of trust that you're giving to them,
627
00:48:53.255 --> 00:48:58.475
you're a 100% trusting them with your privacy. And because you're trusting them with your privacy, your balances, your transactions,
628
00:48:59.095 --> 00:49:11.175
it can make you more prone to physical attack in the future if if they get hacked or, if they get compelled to release it to governments or and then the government gets hacked. There's all different, you know, your your private information is out there.
629
00:49:11.714 --> 00:49:13.734
So I I think it doesn't reduce
630
00:49:14.195 --> 00:49:22.840
I I think it does help in in certain threat models, and everyone has different threat models, but doesn't have help as much. Now the 2 main concerns about multisig and we're seeing some of them in the comments.
631
00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:26.920
The first one is backing up is is a little bit more complex.
632
00:49:27.415 --> 00:49:31.355
I I would push back against that. I mean, basically, what it means in practice
633
00:49:31.734 --> 00:49:32.234
is
634
00:49:32.935 --> 00:49:39.360
you need to have, this additional backup file, and and that backup up file is obviously risk. You might as well keep that with each key.
635
00:49:39.820 --> 00:49:42.320
And if you keep that extra file with each key,
636
00:49:43.420 --> 00:49:46.160
then then you're good to go, that that extra backup information.
637
00:49:46.765 --> 00:49:54.385
So I you're already backing up one piece of information. You back up an additional piece of information. You put that with each with each seed. That's not a,
638
00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:57.980
or each each hardware wallet. That that's not a,
639
00:49:59.740 --> 00:50:16.030
really as complicated as people might make it seem. Now I think the real concern about Multisig right now is the lack of standards between hardware wallets. And because of the lack of standards between hardware wallets, they're not able to communicate effectively the the information they need to communicate
640
00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:21.935
to to verify against each other. So if you're using, like, a single sig cold card,
641
00:50:23.435 --> 00:50:30.150
you it's it's it's a it's a easy standard process to verify your receive addresses, your change addresses, and stuff on screen.
642
00:50:30.930 --> 00:50:33.910
If if you're using multi vendor, multi sig,
643
00:50:35.244 --> 00:50:41.744
you I I think right now, in practice, you can't verify any any kind of information on the individual hardware wallet screens.
644
00:50:42.359 --> 00:50:47.980
Like, am I right that this is the big this is basically the biggest pain point we're sitting at right now in in this ideal setup?
645
00:50:49.464 --> 00:50:52.444
Yeah. I mean, I think that that's absolutely right.
646
00:50:53.145 --> 00:50:57.005
We we definitely need to make some ground ground there. And, you know, it's it's
647
00:50:57.630 --> 00:51:07.055
frustrating to me, and I'm sure, you know, all of the freaks that, you know, these these guys you know, it's it's not that hard to do. It's really not. Like, we have standards
648
00:51:07.915 --> 00:51:10.235
like the the Bitcoin core,
649
00:51:10.795 --> 00:51:13.455
output descriptors now, which, you know,
650
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:15.700
really make this sort of stuff easy.
651
00:51:16.720 --> 00:51:18.480
And, you know, it's
652
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:20.500
I I just think we need,
653
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:22.125
as customers
654
00:51:22.425 --> 00:51:25.805
of these companies, we need to put pressure on them to
655
00:51:26.425 --> 00:51:30.045
kind of add, you know, these key features that we need because,
656
00:51:30.839 --> 00:51:35.740
you're absolutely right, Matt. These are these are things that are currently very hard to do. For instance,
657
00:51:36.040 --> 00:51:40.185
in h w I, which is the line library behind the scenes that talks
658
00:51:40.985 --> 00:51:44.365
via USB to your sort of trezle or whatever,
659
00:51:44.825 --> 00:51:45.645
the multisig
660
00:51:45.945 --> 00:51:47.405
display address command,
661
00:51:47.730 --> 00:51:58.185
it just doesn't really work. And the lead maintainer of that, Andrew Chow, you know, he's just said, you know, it's just super hard to get get this to work. So, you know, it's
662
00:51:58.565 --> 00:51:58.645
it's,
663
00:51:59.605 --> 00:52:04.905
it's it's stuff that is not hard for them to do. I I I really just feel that,
664
00:52:05.605 --> 00:52:07.200
more people need to ask for it.
665
00:52:10.707 --> 00:52:11.207
I
666
00:52:14.295 --> 00:52:17.035
mean, I would just add there that, like, even stuff like PSBTs,
667
00:52:17.335 --> 00:52:18.955
partially signed Bitcoin transactions,
668
00:52:19.415 --> 00:52:23.495
which have now basically become a standard, that's, like, relatively new, and it's because,
669
00:52:24.030 --> 00:52:26.770
NVK, like, at Coldcard started pushing for it.
670
00:52:27.230 --> 00:52:32.370
So just with everything else, like, we've made a lot of progress. I also saw in the comments, I did forget to mention Nunchuk.
671
00:52:32.885 --> 00:52:35.145
I mean, between these open source,
672
00:52:36.005 --> 00:52:36.505
wallets,
673
00:52:37.204 --> 00:52:38.105
you know, Sparrow,
674
00:52:38.724 --> 00:52:40.505
Specter, Nunchuk, BlueWallet,
675
00:52:41.790 --> 00:52:42.290
Caravan,
676
00:52:42.910 --> 00:53:01.299
and, like, the and these new standards that are, like, coming around. Like, I I it feels really bullish. I I feel like I feel like the industry is coming together. I wish they came together a little bit quicker, but they are coming together on this idea that, you know, instead of being a hardware wallet manufacturer, you're just a you're just manufacturing
677
00:53:01.839 --> 00:53:02.500
a key,
678
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:07.535
like a signer device of of of a broader of a broader wallet. Right?
679
00:53:08.875 --> 00:53:10.175
Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.
680
00:53:11.355 --> 00:53:16.180
You know It's it's almost like like, you as an open source dev,
681
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:24.845
like, you have no there's no business model for Sparo. Right? Like, you've come to the you you you know that you're you're never gonna make money from this thing. Right?
682
00:53:25.625 --> 00:53:31.550
I do. I do. I'm actually fine with that, Matt. I've I've kind of been in the commercial game my whole life, and,
683
00:53:32.250 --> 00:53:33.470
you know, it's really
684
00:53:33.770 --> 00:53:37.985
refreshing to just do something with a a pure sort of mission to it.
685
00:53:38.625 --> 00:53:48.869
And that gets me up every day. You know, I can't argue just to go on a tangent for that. I I can't, you know, tell anyone else what their mission is, but I I know that this is mine.
686
00:53:49.250 --> 00:53:55.990
So, I'm keen to keep on going on this path and and try and make the best tools for those who wanna be as
687
00:53:57.505 --> 00:53:59.924
secure as they can can be. So yeah.
688
00:54:02.305 --> 00:54:07.045
I mean, because the reason I bring it up is is because, like, you know, I feel like these hardware wallet fenders,
689
00:54:07.580 --> 00:54:08.320
and and
690
00:54:08.780 --> 00:54:14.240
Coldcard's always been good about this, is, like, they should just be, like, a little bit less greedy. Like, they don't need to control the whole pie.
691
00:54:14.955 --> 00:54:22.095
They're making some profit off of their devices, and they don't need to, you know, have a lockdown system. We need open interoperable systems.
692
00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.660
And I think, ultimately,
693
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:26.900
especially in a world of personal responsibility,
694
00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:30.500
open, you know,
695
00:54:30.815 --> 00:54:34.115
verifiable options are gonna be the ones that are chosen.
696
00:54:34.494 --> 00:54:41.300
They're the ones that are gonna win out in the market anyway. So if if you're gonna argue against that and you're gonna just try and create a closed system,
697
00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:44.260
I mean, it's just short term thinking.
698
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:59.620
Yeah. I mean, I I think, you know, in in in re re response to that particular threat, you know, I I think what you should do is at least try and create your multisig wallet in different wallet soft soft software. So, you know, if you created
699
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.380
in Sparrow, you can easily export to Electrospectrum,
700
00:55:04.365 --> 00:55:11.425
Spectre, or what have you, you know. And at least you can check the addresses in those. Right? The chances that all of those are gonna be compromised
701
00:55:11.805 --> 00:55:17.309
on your machine are pretty low. So that's one way you can get around this sort of hardware wallets,
702
00:55:18.490 --> 00:55:26.805
issue of not being able to actually check the addresses on the device, which is obviously the best. Right? We we would all want that, and hopefully, we'll get it get it soon.
703
00:55:28.065 --> 00:55:29.445
I mean, just to bring,
704
00:55:29.905 --> 00:55:31.605
Eco back into this. I mean,
705
00:55:32.020 --> 00:55:35.400
Eco, like, would you ever use a closed source wallet
706
00:55:35.700 --> 00:55:36.600
with your Bitcoin?
707
00:55:41.375 --> 00:55:42.015
You know, I
708
00:55:43.295 --> 00:55:44.435
no. I
709
00:55:44.815 --> 00:55:49.690
I I'm I think I'm guilty of it, though, because I've used I used key keys before
710
00:55:50.230 --> 00:55:51.369
I used Coldcard.
711
00:55:52.630 --> 00:55:53.130
And
712
00:55:53.910 --> 00:55:57.130
to be honest, you know, I'm not a developer. I'm not a coder.
713
00:55:57.485 --> 00:55:59.185
I really appreciate the fact
714
00:55:59.645 --> 00:56:04.625
that cold card is open source, or I don't really wanna spark the license debate.
715
00:56:05.485 --> 00:56:05.985
But,
716
00:56:07.230 --> 00:56:11.730
I appreciate the fact that it's open sourced. But to be perfectly honest, like,
717
00:56:12.109 --> 00:56:24.035
I wouldn't know what to do with that information if I went online and looked at it. Like, I I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's malicious or not. So I like the idea that other people can look at it and determine
718
00:56:24.710 --> 00:56:28.089
if it's malicious. But, personally, myself, like,
719
00:56:28.950 --> 00:56:32.789
I I wouldn't be able to tell for myself if it is or not. If
720
00:56:33.685 --> 00:56:40.345
but to specifically answer your question, if if a hardware wallet's like, yeah, this is closed source. Like, no one can look at it.
721
00:56:41.890 --> 00:56:44.070
Like, take it or leave it. I'm gonna leave it.
722
00:56:45.330 --> 00:56:48.470
Well, with hardware wallets, it's a little bit different. Because with hardware wallets,
723
00:56:49.155 --> 00:56:51.015
you have the secure element concept.
724
00:56:51.715 --> 00:56:55.815
The secure elements are usually closed source, and it adds additional physical protection.
725
00:56:56.130 --> 00:57:03.110
So what people don't realize is, like, if you're just storing, you know, your Bitcoin on Bitcoin Core on an air gapped laptop, for instance,
726
00:57:03.585 --> 00:57:06.085
and someone, like, comes into your house and takes your laptop,
727
00:57:07.025 --> 00:57:10.085
if you'd haven't encrypted that laptop with a strong passphrase,
728
00:57:10.945 --> 00:57:22.605
they could probably break it. Now a a secure element on these devices makes it so those kind of brute force attacks where they're just, like, hitting you with a ton and ton and ton of of of, you know, attempted guest passphrases,
729
00:57:23.545 --> 00:57:26.285
doesn't work. Like, the the cold card secure element
730
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:33.940
makes it so that if there's 13 mistakes, it's supposed to fucking wipe the thing, and the secure element enforces that.
731
00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:43.990
So with Harbor Wallet, it's a little bit different, and when you use multisig, you reduce the trust in between them. For software, I I I'm a I'm a hardliner here.
732
00:57:44.630 --> 00:57:46.970
I mean, I agree with you that, you know,
733
00:57:47.510 --> 00:57:53.765
it's you know, we've only had 10 episodes of serial dispatch, and we're only gonna get into the licensing argument. For 3 of the 10 so far would be nice.
734
00:57:54.724 --> 00:57:55.444
I I,
735
00:57:56.164 --> 00:58:01.785
the important thing to me is source viewable. The word you were looking for is source viewable. So you're able to view the source.
736
00:58:02.130 --> 00:58:04.390
What that means is and and specifically,
737
00:58:05.809 --> 00:58:13.115
if you can use it for purse if the license says you can use it for personal uses, but you can use it for commercial use. But but the real thing is is source viewable.
738
00:58:13.575 --> 00:58:15.915
And and the reason isn't so that you,
739
00:58:16.375 --> 00:58:20.234
as a talented developer, can actually audit you yourself. It's it's
740
00:58:20.570 --> 00:58:21.790
it's twofold. It's
741
00:58:22.330 --> 00:58:26.910
the first thing is that other people can audit it, and if it's a useful piece of software,
742
00:58:27.744 --> 00:58:32.405
presumably, you know, there'll be more eyes on it because there'll be more people using it.
743
00:58:33.025 --> 00:58:35.125
And then the second thing is survivability.
744
00:58:35.984 --> 00:58:36.965
There's this,
745
00:58:38.930 --> 00:58:40.150
it's just really underappreciated,
746
00:58:40.610 --> 00:58:47.555
this idea that, you know, if if you're using and, like, a a a good example is, like, Samura Wallet. Right? So you're using Samura Wallet,
747
00:58:48.175 --> 00:58:55.910
you're storing your Bitcoin in Samura Wallet, and, you know, fortunately, we have we have some standards in BIP 39. I mean, you're supposed to know your
748
00:58:56.290 --> 00:59:00.390
derivation path, but for the big wallets, that information will probably never disappear.
749
00:59:00.770 --> 00:59:03.714
So, like, you have some protection there. But the concern
750
00:59:04.095 --> 00:59:08.115
that I see from a lot of normies when they don't realize is is you come into the space,
751
00:59:08.974 --> 00:59:18.810
oh, that's a perfect example. I forget the name of it. They, like, turned into shit corners. You come into the space and you're like, if if I have this wall, how do I know it's still gonna work in 5 years?
752
00:59:19.425 --> 00:59:23.285
Right? And if you have something, like, obscure backup method and you're closed source,
753
00:59:24.465 --> 00:59:26.565
there that that company could just disappear.
754
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:30.420
That company can disappear, and you just never have access to your funds.
755
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:33.060
Open source, there there's
756
00:59:33.440 --> 00:59:36.045
it's it's like a fucking virus, you know. It's like
757
00:59:36.685 --> 00:59:42.205
it's just like you can't kill it. Like, the code is out there. It's like Barbara Streisand. You you post you post,
758
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:50.740
you know, you you you you post a picture on the Internet. You have to assume that picture is never coming off the Internet. You pour sort put source code on the Internet,
759
00:59:51.385 --> 00:59:51.705
and,
760
00:59:52.265 --> 01:00:01.460
like, that source code is always gonna be out there. It's gonna be if it's good if it's it's good code, like, it's gonna be flowed and it's gonna get forked. It's gonna get changed and stuff, and you you can always find it
761
01:00:02.260 --> 01:00:02.760
in
762
01:00:03.560 --> 01:00:04.060
5
763
01:00:04.860 --> 01:00:05.360
years.
764
01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:07.540
Yeah. I I think that's
765
01:00:07.840 --> 01:00:09.300
that's totally critical,
766
01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:10.580
and
767
01:00:11.265 --> 01:00:11.765
I
768
01:00:12.385 --> 01:00:13.845
I feel better when
769
01:00:14.704 --> 01:00:16.085
I know that I can just
770
01:00:17.105 --> 01:00:17.605
secure
771
01:00:17.905 --> 01:00:19.660
a small amount of information
772
01:00:20.040 --> 01:00:23.980
and regenerate that wallet on multiple different platforms,
773
01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:28.700
whether that's a cold card or a samurai wallet or blue wallet.
774
01:00:29.945 --> 01:00:34.365
And, honestly, it wasn't until very recently that I learned about the BIP 39,
775
01:00:35.225 --> 01:00:38.365
derivation path and how important it was to notate that.
776
01:00:40.109 --> 01:00:40.609
So
777
01:00:41.790 --> 01:00:43.650
yeah. I understand. That's overblown,
778
01:00:46.109 --> 01:00:47.410
the derivation path.
779
01:00:48.165 --> 01:00:50.265
I don't fully understand it, but,
780
01:00:52.724 --> 01:00:54.744
what could you explain what
781
01:00:55.045 --> 01:00:56.984
what the what the issue is?
782
01:00:57.890 --> 01:00:59.750
So with with with with derivation
783
01:01:00.369 --> 01:01:06.869
with derivation paths is is people think the seed's the private key, but really the seed you derive the private keys from the seed.
784
01:01:07.395 --> 01:01:10.615
So the paths allow you to, you know, have different variations
785
01:01:10.915 --> 01:01:11.415
of
786
01:01:12.115 --> 01:01:13.495
the same source material
787
01:01:14.355 --> 01:01:18.500
generates different addresses for you. Now there's, like, semi standards around them,
788
01:01:19.040 --> 01:01:26.615
and really what we want is, like, complete standards about which derivation path is used by but for for each different situation.
789
01:01:28.115 --> 01:01:28.515
But,
790
01:01:29.315 --> 01:01:47.214
I I think for the major wallets, like, that information never disappears, you know. Like, in a in a real world situation in 5 years, you only have the seed. The thing you really need to know is which wallet was it generated in. You know, like, you don't have to go and think about, like, exactly the derivation pass. Like, you know, it was created in Samari Wallet, you know, in 2019.
791
01:01:47.674 --> 01:01:59.265
Like, that information isn't gonna disappear, out of the Internet. It's a very used it's a heavily used wallet. Now if you're using some random ass fucking wallet and you don't know what the debit path is, like, yeah, then you might lose your funds forever.
792
01:01:59.904 --> 01:02:08.085
Like, Craig, you wanna add on to this? Like, what what are your thoughts here in terms of, like, the the idea that people should be keeping the seed and the derivation path and whatnot?
793
01:02:09.200 --> 01:02:13.220
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that that sort of sort of thing is is is definitely
794
01:02:13.520 --> 01:02:20.405
becoming less of a risk. I kind of agree with you. I think it's a little bit over overblown. You know? Yes. We do lack some, like, documented
795
01:02:20.945 --> 01:02:21.845
stamp standards
796
01:02:22.145 --> 01:02:42.135
on a few of these these things. I think BIP 80 4 is the main main one. But, you know, to be honest, all of the wallets that I've used, and I've used quite a few, they all follow, you know, the guidelines. They're all doing the same same same thing. You know, I I think any wallet that, you know, is talked about in the community
797
01:02:42.835 --> 01:02:46.010
that doesn't do that will be brought to task so so fast.
798
01:02:46.890 --> 01:02:50.590
It's not really a major cons concern. You know?
799
01:02:51.370 --> 01:02:54.030
You know, make your backups for sure.
800
01:02:54.330 --> 01:02:54.830
But
801
01:02:55.215 --> 01:02:57.715
to be honest, to go and test the, I don't
802
01:02:58.095 --> 01:03:00.355
know, you know, 6 or so pods
803
01:03:00.655 --> 01:03:01.155
that
804
01:03:01.535 --> 01:03:11.530
it could be is gonna take you almost no time at all. Right? It's it's gonna take you, like, a half hour at at most, even if you had no idea. Then we got sites like wallets recovery.org.
805
01:03:13.655 --> 01:03:15.915
There's just so much resource out there.
806
01:03:16.535 --> 01:03:21.350
I I just can't see how the derivation part thing is a major issue anymore.
807
01:03:21.670 --> 01:03:28.250
We should certainly make it make it better, for sure, and we're working on that. But, I don't think it's something that should
808
01:03:29.110 --> 01:03:30.055
worry you too much.
809
01:03:30.934 --> 01:03:33.515
Yeah. We even had, like, our boy, Luke Childs.
810
01:03:33.895 --> 01:03:39.035
He, like I think he created a plugin for Electrum that just, like, automatically checks all the top derivation paths.
811
01:03:40.630 --> 01:03:42.970
Yeah. For sure. It's easy.
812
01:03:45.910 --> 01:03:51.545
I guess I'm wondering Craig. I guess as an I guess I'm wondering as a as an end user,
813
01:03:52.165 --> 01:03:59.380
Craig, your perspective as a developer, like, why are developing why are developer teams using different derivation paths?
814
01:04:00.640 --> 01:04:11.595
Well, they they actually, you know, not. But but, you know, they as I as I say, for the most part, they're all kind of using the same ones. The reason why we use different derivation parts is because we've got different,
815
01:04:12.140 --> 01:04:17.840
you know, Bitcoin has evolved, and we've got different script types. Right? So we've got, you know,
816
01:04:18.140 --> 01:04:19.200
we've got the original,
817
01:04:19.605 --> 01:04:29.120
which is generally called legacy. We've got the nested Segwit, and then we've got the native Segwit Segwit, which is the addresses that start with b c one.
818
01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:30.020
And
819
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:31.300
what
820
01:04:31.680 --> 01:04:50.920
the the devs have tried to do is make sure that we use a different derivation part for the keys for each one of these different script types. And that's just good kind of practice to keep things apart. You know, you don't wanna kind of reuse the same the same keys over and over. So that's kind of the the the sort of thinking. The thinking is sound behind it. And as I say,
821
01:04:51.460 --> 01:05:00.735
you know, we've we've come far enough down the road now that everyone's using the same pause for the same script script types. I I I really haven't seen a word that deviates
822
01:05:01.195 --> 01:05:02.975
from from that because it's it's
823
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:09.900
perceived as a very poor kind of thing thing thing thing to do for the obvious reason that it puts user funds at risk.
824
01:05:10.665 --> 01:05:19.325
See, that that makes way more sense to me because the the way the issue was presented to me was that, like, developers are just going willy nilly using whatever
825
01:05:19.710 --> 01:05:22.850
derivation path they want for their specific wallet.
826
01:05:23.390 --> 01:05:26.290
And unless you specifically write that down,
827
01:05:26.805 --> 01:05:32.984
then you may not be able to restore your funds. So, I'm really, I really appreciate you clearing that up because
828
01:05:33.285 --> 01:05:36.265
it seems much more like a non issue to me now,
829
01:05:36.740 --> 01:05:38.760
than it did at the beginning of this conversation.
830
01:05:40.580 --> 01:05:45.160
Great. Great. In fact, one of the things that Sparo does is it actually prevents you
831
01:05:45.835 --> 01:05:49.454
from from using a derivation or or using, yeah,
832
01:05:49.994 --> 01:06:09.875
a derivation part that matches the derivation part for another script script type. In other words, not the one that you're using. So it's really hard to mess that stuff stuff up. Most most wallets, you know, just say this is what it is based on the script type that you've chosen. Most some of them don't even allow you to choose the script type.
833
01:06:10.255 --> 01:06:12.080
You know, it's it's just not,
834
01:06:13.040 --> 01:06:18.420
it's not sort of this user configurable thing that it might have been 2, 3 years years back.
835
01:06:19.200 --> 01:06:19.700
Gotcha.
836
01:06:25.224 --> 01:06:29.805
This conversation is great, by the way, guys. I I like I said, I have latency over here. So,
837
01:06:30.210 --> 01:06:31.650
Iko, feel free to,
838
01:06:32.609 --> 01:06:42.005
this is the first time we got our boy, Craig, on on on air, so feel free to hit him with questions. That's why I brought you on is because I think you could ask them some good questions.
839
01:06:43.025 --> 01:06:45.685
Awesome. And just just keep up keep up with that.
840
01:06:46.305 --> 01:06:46.805
Okay.
841
01:06:49.550 --> 01:06:50.450
So I mean,
842
01:06:52.990 --> 01:07:01.955
wait, like, where do we where do we wanna go from here? I've, Freaks, first of all, remember, you just throw things into the into the live chat, and we will try and hit them,
843
01:07:02.415 --> 01:07:03.555
as much as possible.
844
01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:05.100
6102
845
01:07:05.560 --> 01:07:13.580
mentioned that that thing I was mentioning by Luke Childs has been merged directly into Electronet plug in, so I think it's just in there now. And you can just,
846
01:07:14.515 --> 01:07:17.735
it'll just automatically scan the known derivation paths.
847
01:07:18.595 --> 01:07:26.660
I mean, just to recap, I I think the main issue is just with, like, random ass small wallets. Like, people don't realize, like, if you open iPhone or Android,
848
01:07:27.280 --> 01:07:30.500
and type in Bitcoin Wallet into their their app stores,
849
01:07:32.015 --> 01:07:34.275
there's a lot of shit. It's mostly shit.
850
01:07:36.575 --> 01:07:38.194
Yeah. I agree with that 100%,
851
01:07:38.575 --> 01:07:40.355
dude. It is mostly shit.
852
01:07:42.670 --> 01:07:45.410
And I and I learned I learned that through experience.
853
01:07:46.750 --> 01:07:47.250
Yeah?
854
01:07:47.550 --> 01:07:48.290
Hit us.
855
01:07:49.055 --> 01:07:52.195
Well So, Matt, do sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead, Igor.
856
01:07:52.575 --> 01:08:09.135
I was just like, when I was first getting into this stuff, I I was trying to download as many different wallets as I could because I wanted to try everything and see what worked best. And there's just a lot of junk out there. You know? I I'm I'm not using Samura Wallet and BlueWallet because
857
01:08:09.595 --> 01:08:12.370
those are the first ones I tried out. I'm using them because
858
01:08:13.010 --> 01:08:18.870
I went through a lot of trial and error, and they're the best wallets out there for for what I'm trying to do.
859
01:08:20.855 --> 01:08:30.989
And and same thing with Sparrow. Like, I, you know, I haven't done a lot with desktop wallets. I've got Bitcoin Core, but I've never, like, funded the wallet on Bitcoin Core. I just use it with my node.
860
01:08:32.090 --> 01:08:33.950
But I'm working on this guide
861
01:08:35.185 --> 01:08:35.685
for
862
01:08:36.065 --> 01:08:37.045
Kevan Devani,
863
01:08:37.745 --> 01:08:38.245
and
864
01:08:38.705 --> 01:08:42.245
and I'm gonna go through, like, for total beginners, how to
865
01:08:43.120 --> 01:08:45.220
download, install, and secure,
866
01:08:46.080 --> 01:08:53.115
Samura wallet on an Android, a blue wallet on an iPhone, and I needed a desktop wallet. And I checked out Sparrow,
867
01:08:53.655 --> 01:08:56.055
and I'm really glad that I did because it's an amazing
868
01:08:57.095 --> 01:08:58.555
you you built a beautiful
869
01:08:58.900 --> 01:09:02.199
wallet there, Craig, and, and I'm really excited to
870
01:09:02.500 --> 01:09:04.199
go through the details for everybody
871
01:09:04.980 --> 01:09:07.320
and and show them how to do it step by step.
872
01:09:07.925 --> 01:09:10.345
Thank you. Thank you. That'd be be great.
873
01:09:10.965 --> 01:09:11.465
Yeah.
874
01:09:15.080 --> 01:09:16.940
Were you gonna say something here, Craig?
875
01:09:17.480 --> 01:09:23.420
Yeah. I mean, one way we could take this if if you're keen is to kind of go into some more,
876
01:09:24.120 --> 01:09:27.505
more of more thoughts around cold storage storage.
877
01:09:29.005 --> 01:09:31.665
I've got a few there that might might be a bit
878
01:09:34.700 --> 01:09:36.160
controversial, but Yeah.
879
01:09:37.100 --> 01:09:41.200
If if you're keen to head down that that that path.
880
01:09:42.205 --> 01:09:42.945
If if
881
01:09:43.645 --> 01:09:50.465
Craig, I the reason I created Citadel dispatch is because there's not enough actionable Bitcoin discussion. I wanna talk about things
882
01:09:50.790 --> 01:09:54.330
that Bitcoiners can be, you know, listening to every Tuesday
883
01:09:54.790 --> 01:09:55.770
from their citadels,
884
01:09:56.310 --> 01:09:59.690
and they're like, okay. This is things I can do. These are things I can consider.
885
01:10:00.585 --> 01:10:02.045
Actionable. Not philosophy,
886
01:10:02.905 --> 01:10:03.885
all this bullshit.
887
01:10:04.665 --> 01:10:06.605
We all think the number's gonna go up.
888
01:10:07.465 --> 01:10:17.395
I I do it it's am I hypocritical for putting the price there? No. It's kinda cool that in hindsight, when I when I spool all these together, it's gonna have the price just constantly showing there,
889
01:10:17.875 --> 01:10:20.215
and I need to have something there, so fuck you.
890
01:10:21.635 --> 01:10:31.230
One thing I wanna start with before we dive into here, and I think this is a great idea. So what I wanna do is I like this as a model. We're gonna have Craig. We're gonna go down this hole with Craig.
891
01:10:32.090 --> 01:10:35.710
We're gonna have me asking him questions as someone who's, like, slightly,
892
01:10:36.105 --> 01:10:36.765
you know, slightly,
893
01:10:38.745 --> 01:10:43.725
less technical than Craig asking questions, and we're gonna have Iko asking questions as as more of a,
894
01:10:44.940 --> 01:10:47.679
you know, someone someone who's who's more sophisticated,
895
01:10:47.980 --> 01:10:54.275
but but but not you know, we have 3 different levels here. I don't need to break it down further than that. Privacy,
896
01:10:54.735 --> 01:11:03.235
so so, Iko, I need you to just jump in here, like, I got lag, so just jump in here whenever whenever you feel a pressing question. I want you to just hit him with the question. Your perspective matters.
897
01:11:03.920 --> 01:11:05.139
I wanna start with
898
01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:07.219
someone in the chat said,
899
01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:08.739
I am KYC'd.
900
01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:15.315
I am doxxed. I people know I own Bitcoin. My government knows I own Bitcoin. All these different people know I own Bitcoin.
901
01:11:15.775 --> 01:11:23.440
Is what there is no there he said there's no, you know, negative privacy reason for me to trust a company like Unchained or Casa
902
01:11:23.740 --> 01:11:27.520
in a host and multisig setup. Craig, what do you say to that person?
903
01:11:30.665 --> 01:11:31.325
Good question.
904
01:11:39.400 --> 01:11:47.685
Yeah. I mean, I I guess, you know, I haven't done the research on Unchained, but I have no reason to believe that they're not using the best in class.
905
01:11:48.864 --> 01:11:56.160
You know, if if you are fully doxed, then and and you think that that's a way for you to secure things,
906
01:11:57.740 --> 01:12:03.365
and and you really appreciate the kind of assistance that they can provide, which I'm sure is excellent,
907
01:12:03.905 --> 01:12:06.645
then I think it's a very valid path to go.
908
01:12:07.025 --> 01:12:17.505
You know, it's it's pretty unfortunate that you're in the position that, you know, people know your balance and all of those sort of sort of things. It definitely puts you at higher higher risk.
909
01:12:19.105 --> 01:12:24.145
But if you are there, then I can't see a strong reason not to go down that path.
910
01:12:24.545 --> 01:12:28.710
You know, yes. Sure. You'll further dox yourself self to them, but
911
01:12:29.090 --> 01:12:32.310
it doesn't really matter at this point, if that is the case.
912
01:12:34.210 --> 01:12:35.090
So, I mean, I
913
01:12:45.150 --> 01:12:49.890
I like I think the product is a it's a good product. They have an open source, fully open source caravan,
914
01:12:51.230 --> 01:12:55.010
and then they hold one key. So they created an open source stack so you can,
915
01:12:55.585 --> 01:13:01.765
easily remove it without trusting them. I do think they are best in class. You are trusting them with your privacy.
916
01:13:02.600 --> 01:13:05.020
Just just to explain, best in class, I mean, Casa's
917
01:13:05.480 --> 01:13:10.060
app is closed source. So you're looking at your receiving addresses on a closed source app.
918
01:13:11.525 --> 01:13:21.880
With with the the easiest way to verify a Casa multisig is with Caravan, which is Unchained's open source stack. I mean, I you could also use Sparo to do it. But, anyway, I digress.
919
01:13:22.180 --> 01:13:24.360
The main concern is, to me,
920
01:13:24.900 --> 01:13:25.400
is
921
01:13:26.739 --> 01:13:27.480
if if
922
01:13:27.860 --> 01:13:30.040
if the goal is ultimately security,
923
01:13:30.455 --> 01:13:33.034
specifically physical security, I completely understand
924
01:13:33.655 --> 01:13:34.474
you're using
925
01:13:35.094 --> 01:13:36.315
a hosted multisync.
926
01:13:37.640 --> 01:13:45.020
Like Craig said earlier, geographical separation of keys is is super important when you're talking about, like, home invasion type threat models.
927
01:13:45.735 --> 01:13:49.594
And they will hold your hand the whole fucking process. If you're a corporation
928
01:13:50.375 --> 01:13:56.030
and, you know, you're you're like a Michael Sailor and you're keeping it one of these these massive regulated custodians,
929
01:13:56.650 --> 01:13:58.430
Unchained will do that for you instead.
930
01:13:59.130 --> 01:14:13.810
And then that way, you have a you have the the full quorum of keys yourself. You don't have to trust them with custody, but they hold one key. They can correspond with the audits and all these different things you want them to do. So there's there's definitely a value there if someone who wants to trust them with their privacy.
931
01:14:14.770 --> 01:14:15.270
Now
932
01:14:15.890 --> 01:14:22.630
if you are if your attempt is to be like a sovereign Bitcoin user and you're KYC'd and docs, I I don't want people to think,
933
01:14:23.545 --> 01:14:27.005
like, the the enemy of of of good is perfect,
934
01:14:27.625 --> 01:14:31.485
and that goes with privacy as well. And this idea that, like,
935
01:14:31.850 --> 01:14:34.030
there's a 1000000 different reasons in this
936
01:14:34.330 --> 01:14:52.159
today's age where you can say, like, my privacy is fucked. It doesn't matter anymore. I have a Facebook. I have an Alexa in my kitchen. Get rid of Alexa. Like, you shouldn't have one there. But I have an Alexa in my kitchen. I have a passport. Like, there's cameras every day when I go to work and they see me. And I walk out of my condo, and there's cameras in my face. And there's all different reasons
937
01:14:52.699 --> 01:14:54.000
that you can come up with,
938
01:14:54.540 --> 01:14:56.719
to say, like, my privacy is already fucked.
939
01:14:57.075 --> 01:14:59.735
Like, it doesn't matter. But that's not the case. Privacy
940
01:15:00.035 --> 01:15:07.000
is on a scale. There it's it's not black and white, and and you can improve different things. And if you're already fully doxed and whatnot,
941
01:15:08.740 --> 01:15:12.520
and and and your all your keys are KYC, you can still go through Whirlpool.
942
01:15:12.895 --> 01:15:23.840
You can still hold your keys going forward and have, you know, forward privacy and and try and improve your forward privacy. Like, is is it is it a 100% perfect? No. But but you can improve your situation,
943
01:15:25.340 --> 01:15:32.000
and and it's important to realize that I do think that all these hosts and multisig providers are gonna be compelled to hand over all this information,
944
01:15:33.005 --> 01:15:36.785
to the major governments. So you you should operate under the assumption
945
01:15:37.165 --> 01:15:41.985
that at some time in the future, all this information is gonna end up in a central database somewhere.
946
01:15:42.590 --> 01:15:45.570
And I'm not saying they're not gonna fight it. They're gonna try and fight it,
947
01:15:45.949 --> 01:15:51.010
but it's gonna end up there eventually at some point. And you have to at least operate under that assumption.
948
01:15:51.585 --> 01:16:06.960
And, the information I have to back that up is that Coinbase was compelled to hand over this information as well. They weren't compelled to hand over coins. They they didn't the government didn't say to them, you know, you have to hand over your customers' coins. They said, we want we want complete transaction history of these users.
949
01:16:07.285 --> 01:16:13.385
And Coinbase thought it back and they said, okay, we just need the users that were over $20 worth, but they still got all the users.
950
01:16:15.180 --> 01:16:16.320
Great answer, Matt.
951
01:16:18.940 --> 01:16:25.415
Yeah. I would Okay. I would ask that I would ask that person, like, why why not start defensively
952
01:16:26.594 --> 01:16:29.255
reclaiming some of your privacy ground? Like,
953
01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:31.580
yeah, you might be doxxed, but,
954
01:16:32.360 --> 01:16:36.700
like, you you can take steps to start undoing that and start improving
955
01:16:37.315 --> 01:16:43.014
your privacy. You can start building a non KYC stack and keeping it completely segregated.
956
01:16:43.795 --> 01:16:44.295
And
957
01:16:46.250 --> 01:16:46.990
I just
958
01:16:47.610 --> 01:16:52.110
you're just taking on so much more risk when when you have your identity associated
959
01:16:52.765 --> 01:16:56.225
with your Bitcoin. And it it's not just physical attacks, but,
960
01:16:56.925 --> 01:17:09.929
you know, if if the US government thinks that their sovereignty is threatened, they are not going to stop at anything to isolate that threat. And if they perceive Bitcoin to be that threat or people who are self custodying Bitcoin,
961
01:17:10.265 --> 01:17:18.525
there's no length at which they will not go to try and get that from you. And so long as your identity is a is tied to that Bitcoin,
962
01:17:20.030 --> 01:17:21.890
you're you're a potential target.
963
01:17:22.510 --> 01:17:28.975
And I I think the world is crazy enough today that that's that's a a reasonable threat to be thinking about.
964
01:17:35.020 --> 01:17:37.920
Yeah. I mean, I it you know, as an American,
965
01:17:38.220 --> 01:17:49.945
maybe you think that's a foreign threat, but but there's plenty of governments around the world where I think even, I think Americans would a 100% say that, of course, they should be worried about their government finding out.
966
01:17:51.295 --> 01:17:51.795
And
967
01:17:52.350 --> 01:18:14.770
and that could easily happen here, and there's other there's people that live in other countries that, you know and we don't want other governments to know either. Like, I don't want China to know my my transaction history. And, like, people say to me, they're, like, oh, but, like, America is, like, they do drone strikes and stuff. Like, I know. Like, when I say I don't want China to know, I'm trying to hit a different demographic that maybe a 100% trust America even though they shouldn't.
968
01:18:15.470 --> 01:18:23.025
China I don't want China to know my fucking transaction history. In a world where American citizens aren't allowed to practice privacy best practices
969
01:18:23.405 --> 01:18:30.530
and use CoinJoin and use encryption is a world where China has your full message history and has your full financial transaction history.
970
01:18:31.070 --> 01:18:45.574
If you wanna go even less than that, I mean, your boss shouldn't know what you're spending your salary on, and your bodega owner or the the person owning the store that you bought the sandwich at shouldn't know how much you made as your salary. Like, these are basic financial privacy,
971
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:47.180
necessities,
972
01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:50.540
that I think most people agree to when when when
973
01:18:51.000 --> 01:18:52.620
you start to explain the implications.
974
01:18:53.800 --> 01:18:54.300
Craig,
975
01:18:54.935 --> 01:19:01.995
let's go down this fucking rabbit hole, man. This is why I had you on the podcast. This is let's fucking go. I I I've been looking forward to this for a while.
976
01:19:03.200 --> 01:19:04.500
Okay. Great. So
977
01:19:05.280 --> 01:19:08.160
I wanna cover, like, 3 main points here,
978
01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:11.300
which yeah. Let's just dive in.
979
01:19:12.045 --> 01:19:13.745
All of the previous things
980
01:19:14.205 --> 01:19:25.530
that were said before about, you know, if you're a beginner and you've got your coins off the exchange, you're doing doing great. Those all still apply. So this is more the sort of advanced level stuff. So let's get into it.
981
01:19:26.550 --> 01:19:30.325
The the the first one I wanna cover, which I have discussed,
982
01:19:31.265 --> 01:19:32.165
somewhat on
983
01:19:32.945 --> 01:19:38.005
Twitter, is the idea well, not not the idea, but rather the fact that when you
984
01:19:38.830 --> 01:19:48.545
use Bitcoin Core as your wallet. So in other words, you're connecting directly to Bitcoin Core with whatever wallet software you use, whether it's Specter or Sparrow,
985
01:19:48.925 --> 01:19:54.945
you are using the Bitcoin Core Wallet on an in case, a sort of sort of internal level.
986
01:19:55.920 --> 01:20:00.020
And one of the the the kind of unavoidable facts about that wallet
987
01:20:00.400 --> 01:20:06.055
is that it stores all of your addresses, your balance, and everything in an unencrypted format.
988
01:20:07.155 --> 01:20:11.495
Now that's really that's not a sort of a design oversight. That's more
989
01:20:11.940 --> 01:20:13.240
a software architecture
990
01:20:13.620 --> 01:20:16.120
decision that they've kind of had to make. Because
991
01:20:16.580 --> 01:20:23.595
if you think about what Bitcoin Core mainly is is it's this piece of software that connects to other other nodes,
992
01:20:24.055 --> 01:20:24.555
downloads,
993
01:20:25.015 --> 01:20:28.315
you know, new blocks, and tries to determine,
994
01:20:29.020 --> 01:20:34.320
you know, the the consensus between between these these blocks. That's its main purpose.
995
01:20:34.699 --> 01:20:37.525
The wallet is a required feature,
996
01:20:38.945 --> 01:20:41.685
at least it was when the first version came out.
997
01:20:42.625 --> 01:20:58.285
And how it sort of works is every time a new block comes in, what the wallet's part of the soft software does is it goes and has a look at that block and says, are there any transactions in in this that apply to me? And if they are, then it stores those in your wallet dot dap file.
998
01:20:58.825 --> 01:21:04.525
So just the sort of nature of the way that it works means that it has to operate in this un
999
01:21:11.770 --> 01:21:14.855
net. And and that's that's almost like these 2
1000
01:21:15.395 --> 01:21:26.909
these 2 opposing forces. Right? On the one hand, you need to keep your Bitcoin code, your Bitcoin core node synced, and on the other hand, you need to try and keep your wallet, or at least your cold storage wallet offline
1001
01:21:27.395 --> 01:21:30.135
as much as you can. Right? And and those are 2
1002
01:21:30.435 --> 01:21:33.574
opposing forces, and it's the the only way to really,
1003
01:21:34.114 --> 01:21:36.375
in my view, solve solve this well
1004
01:21:37.070 --> 01:21:44.530
is to break them apart. Right? To kind of not try and make it one thing that you run that tries to do these 2 things at once.
1005
01:21:45.175 --> 01:21:48.875
And and that's the sort of advantage of being able to use
1006
01:21:50.135 --> 01:21:51.515
a Electrum server,
1007
01:21:51.975 --> 01:22:00.610
which allows you to pay basically send a request in, get the results back, and then the server just forgets about it. It doesn't have to try
1008
01:22:00.910 --> 01:22:02.530
and say, you know,
1009
01:22:04.594 --> 01:22:15.830
what's going on? Can I store this information? Do I need to store a store a store it? The reason that an Electrum server can do it that way is because all of the transactions that are coming in, it just indexes.
1010
01:22:16.210 --> 01:22:23.545
So it can do a lookup really fast, whereas the Bitcoin core node doesn't have that. Right? And the Bitcoin core devs are not keen to add this.
1011
01:22:23.925 --> 01:22:40.485
So what you have is 2 different ways of working. 1 is this way of working where every new block that comes in, we need to analyze it, and we need to pull the information out of it if it applies to us. And the other way of working is every new block that comes in, we just index everything.
1012
01:22:41.425 --> 01:22:42.405
And as a result,
1013
01:22:43.425 --> 01:22:49.719
your transactions from your wallet just look the same as everyone else's. So those are 2 very different ways of doing things.
1014
01:22:50.340 --> 01:22:55.000
And as a result, you know, if we zoom out again, if you're using Bitcoin Core,
1015
01:22:55.525 --> 01:22:56.025
your
1016
01:22:56.485 --> 01:22:58.985
your whole wallet is sitting in an unencrypted
1017
01:22:59.365 --> 01:23:01.065
form on that node.
1018
01:23:01.365 --> 01:23:19.054
And I think most people are not really aware of this. And I think that if we're looking at the physical attack mod mod model, people coming into your your home, getting access to your PC, they can see whatever balance you have. So even, you know, that gives them a huge tool to be able to say, I want all of that. Right?
1019
01:23:19.740 --> 01:23:31.195
And it's it's really an easy thing to avoid. Right? You just have to find a different way of being able to address this, or at least I see it. That's that's sort of me as a as a dev kind of looking at it.
1020
01:23:32.295 --> 01:23:39.760
You know, being able to separate these two these two needs, one of the wallets and one of the node that needs to keep synced,
1021
01:23:40.539 --> 01:23:47.505
is for me a really important part of the reason why I wanted to build Sparrow in the first first place, was just be able to say,
1022
01:23:47.805 --> 01:23:49.905
you know what? I can keep my wallet,
1023
01:23:50.365 --> 01:24:11.885
my cold store storage wallet offline most of the time. I can only access that that thing when I absolutely want to, which might only be a few times times a year. But at the same time, I can keep my Bitcoin core node synced all the time. So I don't have to kind of get off my laptop, sync this thing for several days, and then eventually know what my balance
1024
01:24:12.310 --> 01:24:12.810
balance
1025
01:24:13.110 --> 01:24:16.650
is. So I don't not sure if I've described that well, Matt.
1026
01:24:17.350 --> 01:24:18.330
Does that sound
1027
01:24:19.785 --> 01:24:21.485
something that makes sense?
1028
01:24:22.425 --> 01:24:23.325
I mean, I
1029
01:24:23.865 --> 01:24:27.280
yes. I mean, first of all, I mean, you've described it already to me,
1030
01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:29.460
twice now. So,
1031
01:24:30.639 --> 01:24:36.420
so so I think I think it was explained well to the freaks. If the freaks disagree in the comments, you can let us know.
1032
01:24:37.205 --> 01:24:38.824
If if if Eco,
1033
01:24:39.685 --> 01:24:45.225
thinks you didn't describe it well, then we'll know through through him as well. But I just wanted to say here, I mean,
1034
01:24:46.330 --> 01:24:50.190
one of the cool things about Sparrow is that it gives you so many different fucking options,
1035
01:24:50.890 --> 01:24:58.235
and it tries to explain the options to you as you go through them, which is pretty cool that it can do it in, like, a UX friendly way,
1036
01:24:59.575 --> 01:25:05.870
that it, like, kind of it it, like, explains, like, okay, you're doing this, you're doing that. Like, do you wanna generate a Hot Wallet? Do you wanna do this?
1037
01:25:06.490 --> 01:25:09.550
You're able to back it up. Do you wanna add a passphrase? It's just, like, very
1038
01:25:09.955 --> 01:25:11.255
verbose, very clear.
1039
01:25:12.675 --> 01:25:14.855
But it has this watch only feature.
1040
01:25:15.555 --> 01:25:16.615
So, I mean, it
1041
01:25:17.370 --> 01:25:20.430
it that's exact what you just said is is
1042
01:25:20.890 --> 01:25:22.670
that if you use a watch only,
1043
01:25:22.970 --> 01:25:25.585
you know, the watch only feature in Sparrow,
1044
01:25:25.965 --> 01:25:29.745
you're susceptible to that as well, even if you use a separate Electrum server. Right?
1045
01:25:30.605 --> 01:25:36.659
No. No. I mean, if you use so so the way I sort of see it is and and, you know, the
1046
01:25:38.159 --> 01:25:43.380
new Spiro release that's coming out just this week, I think, will make it clearer. I was just redoing the whole sort of
1047
01:25:43.705 --> 01:26:03.255
welcome screen today. So, basically, I see it, you know, in terms of the Sparrow world, you can connect in 1 of 3 different ways. You can connect to a public server, right, which obviously means you docks all of your transaction data to that serve serve server. Now what I've I've done is I've picked a few servers that are run by by people
1048
01:26:03.715 --> 01:26:06.455
like Luke Childs who, you know, I think
1049
01:26:07.075 --> 01:26:17.510
you can, to some degree, trust. I'm not saying you should, but, you know, they're not just some random server that, you know, some chain out of Alice's comp company has
1050
01:26:17.985 --> 01:26:20.485
spun up and has joined the peer to peer to
1051
01:26:20.945 --> 01:26:25.445
peer network. Right? So that's the one way. Connect to a I didn't realize you did that.
1052
01:26:26.170 --> 01:26:31.070
It it it's not a lot of 5 years. Yeah. So that that's what's kind of that idea.
1053
01:26:31.690 --> 01:26:34.885
Cool. Cool. So Sorry. Continue. That's the kind of
1054
01:26:45.030 --> 01:26:46.250
just just sort of mentioned.
1055
01:26:46.710 --> 01:26:55.395
But let's let's be honest, you know, just getting to the state of running a Bitcoin core node isn't the easiest thing for many people. So just having done that, you're doing well.
1056
01:26:55.695 --> 01:27:08.800
You know, it's a big step up step up. Now none of your transactions are leaving anywhere. Right? It's all staying there. Your own node is validating everything. That's a really good place to be. It's just got the one downside
1057
01:27:09.500 --> 01:27:30.845
of having your wallet stored in this unencrypted format on the node. Right? So that's that's the second way of doing doing things. And then the the the third way, which is the most private way, is to run your own private Electron server. And that's what Matt was saying wasn't the easiest thing. And it's true. It's not the easiest thing. But with these modern node packages like Umbrel,
1058
01:27:31.225 --> 01:27:42.570
it's really not that hard anymore. And I I I kinda wanna push back a little bit on on that. I think it was hard, but, I mean, the number of people I'm seeing on Twitter every day with sort of Umbrel, you know,
1059
01:27:43.030 --> 01:27:46.810
and and various things, you know, it's it's getting it's getting a lot easier.
1060
01:27:47.565 --> 01:27:54.305
Well, if you remember, when I said what I said was 2 years ago, I feel like we all hit this hole where we were like,
1061
01:27:54.940 --> 01:27:56.880
okay. Electrum is the best thing,
1062
01:27:57.260 --> 01:28:05.355
but it's just not there. It's just too complicated, and and Electrum personal server is too complicated. And 2 things happened that we had
1063
01:28:05.895 --> 01:28:09.435
we had, you know, you created Sparrow, we had Caravan, Nunchuk,
1064
01:28:10.215 --> 01:28:34.600
Specter created. And then on the opposite side, we had this blossoming of of node packages that made it easy to run your own Electrum server. Right? We had to comment it, like, both happened because of the same it was like this there was this group realization 2 years ago, and we were like, fuck. Like, this needs to improve. And over the last 2 years, it's just crazy. Like, you look at it. I mean, you mentioned Get Umbral. I mean, we have Keto we have Keto in,
1065
01:28:35.895 --> 01:28:41.835
we have Keto in the chat right now. He has Nodl, which is which is a prebuilt, you know, a prebuilt,
1066
01:28:42.375 --> 01:28:43.355
your own node,
1067
01:28:44.030 --> 01:28:45.010
highly performant.
1068
01:28:45.630 --> 01:28:48.930
We have our own in Dojo. We have MyNode. We have RaspiBlitz.
1069
01:28:49.630 --> 01:28:56.704
Like, there's just all these packages that make it easy to to run your own node and run your own Electrum personal server, and it all kinda happened
1070
01:28:57.405 --> 01:29:20.210
over the same this bear markets are when things get done. People, like, oh, all caps Odell, like, do you not care about are you not in for the tech? You only care about the price and stuff. It's like, no. I'm trying to get through the bull market noise, and I'm, like, gonna attract people with some price, you know. Some people are gonna stumble on this little dispatch because they see the price ticker going on. They might stumble in because I'd say, you know, Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, which it is,
1071
01:29:20.610 --> 01:29:27.989
and, I'm gonna make them listen to the custodial talk. I'm gonna make them listen to the privacy talk. I'm gonna make them listen to the KYC talk,
1072
01:29:28.785 --> 01:29:42.560
and and this is how you get through in bull markets, but let's let's not pretend that bull markets are gonna be as productive as bear markets. Bear markets are when shit gets done. The bull cycles are, like, kinda when we watch this shit happen that we that we kinda expected, but it just, like, blew,
1073
01:29:42.940 --> 01:29:44.945
you know, blew up farther than we could think.
1074
01:29:45.505 --> 01:29:46.704
But I I just want to
1075
01:29:47.824 --> 01:29:49.685
I mean, at the end of the day,
1076
01:29:50.145 --> 01:29:54.565
I I do agree that this is a threat, and this is what you initially mentioned to me.
1077
01:29:55.620 --> 01:29:57.560
But at the end of the day, like in practice,
1078
01:29:57.940 --> 01:30:03.640
like the average person, whether they're using Electrum personal server or not Electrum server or not,
1079
01:30:04.175 --> 01:30:06.995
Like, they're gonna have a computer that they have dedicated
1080
01:30:07.535 --> 01:30:12.260
if if for convenience sake, they're probably gonna have a computer that's dedicated to holding their public keys,
1081
01:30:12.659 --> 01:30:19.480
Whether that's core holding transaction like, actual transaction data along with it, or whether that's Sparrow holding an XPUB.
1082
01:30:20.985 --> 01:30:23.725
They're gonna have a computer that's hopefully air gapped
1083
01:30:24.025 --> 01:30:29.280
that is gonna, you know, that is gonna be holding their public keys for them. And
1084
01:30:32.059 --> 01:30:36.400
I I I get I guess Electrum makes that interface easier. Is that what you're saying?
1085
01:30:37.284 --> 01:30:44.344
No. I mean, look, I I think the whole thing I I I actually really doubt a lot of people are going out there and setting up air gap computers.
1086
01:30:45.040 --> 01:30:47.700
You know, I've certainly done it before, but,
1087
01:30:48.240 --> 01:30:52.020
it's it's expensive. It's not the easiest thing.
1088
01:30:52.945 --> 01:30:58.165
I think that the most common way that people are gonna go is the sort of hot hot hardware
1089
01:30:58.625 --> 01:30:59.510
wallet route.
1090
01:31:00.389 --> 01:31:04.170
And I think, you know, if you can use, as I say, a different piece of software
1091
01:31:04.789 --> 01:31:08.809
apart from Bitcoin Core and apart you know, and and sort of just connect
1092
01:31:09.385 --> 01:31:11.405
to your your
1093
01:31:12.345 --> 01:31:13.165
your Electrom's
1094
01:31:13.465 --> 01:31:50.304
serve server server. Now as as I was saying, the one real big advantage of that is that thing just indexes everything. So it doesn't need to store details of your wallet. So every you know, however often you wanna check your cold store storage, which shouldn't be often. Right? It should be, like, a few times a year, maybe once a month. Who knows? But, no, it's it's not something that you're gonna be doing every day. You wanna try and keep that cold storage wallet offline as much as you can. So then you can fire up Sparrow. You can load the wallet for the time that you require it. You can get your balance down. The server forgets that you asked for it. That's the way it's designed.
1095
01:31:50.740 --> 01:31:54.440
And you're not storing anything in anywhere. So it's really only present,
1096
01:31:55.060 --> 01:32:13.730
you know, on the encrypted file, the Sparrow wallet file, and in the RAM of your computer for the time that you have that wallet open. And that's really the time that you're trying to minimize, right, the the the time that that wallet is open for. You don't want that wallet to be sort of sitting around in an unencrypted form,
1097
01:32:14.915 --> 01:32:18.855
for a long period of time. That that's at least what I'm trying to do.
1098
01:32:19.475 --> 01:32:25.880
So the advantage is the advantage is if you use it on a hot computer and you have, like, your XPUB on the hot computer with Sparrow,
1099
01:32:26.420 --> 01:32:33.755
then it's encrypted. But if you have if you have your XPUB in core, it's all the transaction data is unencrypted sitting there.
1100
01:32:34.375 --> 01:32:40.715
Yeah. That's right. That's right. So, I mean, what you can do, a a different way, of doing it is to set up the
1101
01:32:41.160 --> 01:32:44.540
dedicated air gap computer with an encrypted hard drive.
1102
01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:46.860
And then you open that thing up,
1103
01:32:47.320 --> 01:32:57.220
like, a few times a year, and you're gonna have to sync it, which will take a while. So that increases your risk because you're now sitting waiting for the thing to sync. It's not gonna take that long, though. Right?
1104
01:32:58.420 --> 01:33:01.880
I don't know. It depends. Like, my old Mac MacBook Pro,
1105
01:33:02.260 --> 01:33:05.855
I I was trying to sync 12 days today, and it took 6 hours.
1106
01:33:06.235 --> 01:33:13.920
So, it, it takes a little while. You know, to check your balance shouldn't take you more than, you know, 10 minutes to send send a transact transaction.
1107
01:33:15.360 --> 01:33:16.260
Timed out.
1108
01:33:18.880 --> 01:33:20.580
Hey, can I just So I agree?
1109
01:33:21.175 --> 01:33:22.155
Yes, please.
1110
01:33:22.935 --> 01:33:23.435
So,
1111
01:33:24.055 --> 01:33:26.715
Craig, I really like the idea of separating
1112
01:33:27.815 --> 01:33:30.075
the Bitcoin Core Wallet from
1113
01:33:30.890 --> 01:33:34.030
the node that's, like, checking transactions on the network.
1114
01:33:34.490 --> 01:33:36.830
And the and the reason I say that is because
1115
01:33:37.290 --> 01:33:38.510
when I built my
1116
01:33:39.025 --> 01:33:42.005
Bitcoin Core node on a Raspberry Pi,
1117
01:33:43.265 --> 01:33:44.965
I I was just arbitrarily,
1118
01:33:45.585 --> 01:33:49.770
like, entering code that I was finding in multiple places on the Internet.
1119
01:33:50.150 --> 01:33:54.810
I had no idea what I was doing. Finding good instructions to build a node was
1120
01:33:55.245 --> 01:33:56.225
was pretty difficult.
1121
01:33:56.685 --> 01:33:58.465
I'm not a coder. I'm not a developer.
1122
01:33:58.765 --> 01:34:07.570
So I felt once I got it up and running, I felt really uncomfortable with the idea of putting any funds in that wallet. I like the idea of having a node
1123
01:34:07.949 --> 01:34:11.090
that was operating and keeping my own copy of the blockchain
1124
01:34:11.550 --> 01:34:20.195
to check transactions against. But I really didn't like the idea of having funds on it because I didn't know what I had just typed into the computer to make this thing work.
1125
01:34:22.070 --> 01:34:22.630
And it
1126
01:34:23.190 --> 01:34:24.090
if I understand
1127
01:34:24.470 --> 01:34:25.290
you correctly,
1128
01:34:26.150 --> 01:34:30.565
you're saying, like, if I use my Bitcoin core node to back up Sparrow,
1129
01:34:31.185 --> 01:34:31.685
then
1130
01:34:32.545 --> 01:34:35.445
the transactions done in my Sparrow wallet are
1131
01:34:35.905 --> 01:34:38.885
being stored on the Bitcoin core
1132
01:34:39.530 --> 01:34:41.230
wallet dot dot file unencrypted.
1133
01:34:41.929 --> 01:34:49.025
Is that correct? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's yeah. It it is an unfortunate thing. I don't think it's often talked talked about.
1134
01:34:49.505 --> 01:35:10.284
But, actually, like, what all the freaks should do is just open that wallet dot dap file in a text text editor. Like, prove it for yourself. Don't trust what I'm saying. Go and have a look. And you'll see there's a whole lot of binary in there. So it's not the easiest thing thing to read. But I guarantee you, you'll see your sort of addresses mixed in with all all of that. And and that's just the way that it's built. Right?
1135
01:35:11.244 --> 01:35:11.565
There's
1136
01:35:12.045 --> 01:35:20.969
as I say, because of the fact that it needs to be online, it needs to check for every new new block, it doesn't really make sense for them to encrypt encrypt things because
1137
01:35:21.485 --> 01:35:25.664
they have to have it unencrypted all the time anyway, if that makes any sense.
1138
01:35:26.445 --> 01:35:32.630
Yeah. No. It does. And you're you're saying the the Electrum one is indexing constantly. Right?
1139
01:35:33.250 --> 01:35:38.985
Yeah. So that basically just indexes every transaction that comes comes in. Right? So so the reason
1140
01:35:39.445 --> 01:35:47.900
that the Bitcoin core one needs to work the way it does is because it doesn't index everything. It tries for very good reasons to keep your disk space space down.
1141
01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:55.980
It doesn't index everything that comes in. Right? And the Bitcoin board devs are just not keen to build that feature in. So
1142
01:35:56.345 --> 01:35:57.645
that's the way that it is.
1143
01:35:58.105 --> 01:36:00.125
I I I came across this
1144
01:36:00.585 --> 01:36:02.605
command you can put in the bitcoin.com
1145
01:36:03.385 --> 01:36:03.885
file.
1146
01:36:05.280 --> 01:36:13.220
I I if I recall correctly, it was, like, tx index equals true. And I I thought it was so that your node would be indexing everything.
1147
01:36:14.075 --> 01:36:20.335
Yeah. So that's a really good good point. So what that actually does is it makes it so you can look up
1148
01:36:20.770 --> 01:36:33.425
any transaction on your node if you have the transaction ID. What it does not do okay. Well, what it does not do is allow you to look up the balance of your address. And that's what you actually need. So it's it's unfortunately
1149
01:36:33.805 --> 01:36:34.785
of no use
1150
01:36:35.325 --> 01:36:46.300
for a wallet. Like, a wallet can't really use use that in in the sense of saying, can I check my balance? Because you need to be able to look up the balance of an address, not the transaction
1151
01:36:46.760 --> 01:36:47.260
ID.
1152
01:36:47.685 --> 01:36:50.185
Right. Okay. That makes sense. Thank you.
1153
01:36:50.725 --> 01:36:51.225
Sure.
1154
01:36:56.820 --> 01:36:57.480
So, I mean,
1155
01:36:58.500 --> 01:37:01.080
first of all, thank you both. That was awesome.
1156
01:37:02.875 --> 01:37:04.735
Let's get more of that. I I
1157
01:37:05.035 --> 01:37:10.175
I I I think, Craig, I mean, to answer your question, the reason there's not much concern placed to that is because
1158
01:37:11.369 --> 01:37:14.590
Bitcoin privacy is a fucking mess right now,
1159
01:37:15.050 --> 01:37:18.909
and, that's like the least of people's concerns in terms of privacy.
1160
01:37:21.574 --> 01:37:28.869
Well, yeah. I mean, I I I guess as as I was saying, Matt, I I think that the the kind of physical threat is a bit underappreciated.
1161
01:37:29.969 --> 01:37:34.550
And that for me, you know, I guess this is being driven by my own fears.
1162
01:37:34.929 --> 01:37:47.280
I'm sort of thinking about this in my own own way, and and I was just thinking there's there's no way that I'm putting my pub keys uncript crypted on a machine which is constantly connected to the to the the
1163
01:37:47.739 --> 01:37:53.920
net. I mean, it's just it it doesn't make any sense to me as a dev. I've seen servers being hacked
1164
01:37:54.614 --> 01:37:56.394
many, many, many times. And,
1165
01:37:56.775 --> 01:38:11.370
you know, at at the very least, I want those to be, you know, offline for as as much of the time as I can have. Right? That's that for me is a key key goal goal here. So I hear what you're saying, and there's lots of areas to improve on,
1166
01:38:12.425 --> 01:38:15.085
but this for me is one that just seemed
1167
01:38:15.545 --> 01:38:16.364
kind of important.
1168
01:38:17.705 --> 01:38:19.485
No. Look, I 100% agree.
1169
01:38:21.510 --> 01:38:27.610
A 100% agree. I think it's a a very good point. This is one of the reasons I wanted you on. I I've tried to
1170
01:38:28.614 --> 01:38:30.534
RHR, but you do it in a way
1171
01:38:31.735 --> 01:38:36.135
you you just you know, obviously, you're you're very passionate about this topic. I just
1172
01:38:36.860 --> 01:38:38.880
I I think that to me,
1173
01:38:39.740 --> 01:38:40.640
what, 95%
1174
01:38:41.020 --> 01:38:43.040
of users aren't using their own node,
1175
01:38:44.135 --> 01:38:47.995
whosever node they're using, they're doxing their transactions to. Right?
1176
01:38:48.855 --> 01:38:49.355
Correct.
1177
01:38:51.095 --> 01:38:52.930
And then, well, like, 90%
1178
01:38:53.390 --> 01:38:57.170
of or, like, 95% of people who come into the space are using KYC
1179
01:38:57.470 --> 01:38:57.970
services,
1180
01:38:59.230 --> 01:39:02.525
and then they're giving them their passport and their, like,
1181
01:39:03.465 --> 01:39:03.965
everything,
1182
01:39:04.585 --> 01:39:12.989
and then and their address that they're sent to, and they're they don't know how to use CoinJoin, and they they're getting scared out of it, and certain influencers might tell them it's likely illegal,
1183
01:39:14.330 --> 01:39:16.030
and that that they should use BlockFi.
1184
01:39:17.185 --> 01:39:20.085
And and so we end up in a situation where, like,
1185
01:39:20.784 --> 01:39:23.125
you know, I'm just I'm I I
1186
01:39:23.880 --> 01:39:25.660
I I I realized
1187
01:39:26.120 --> 01:39:26.620
that
1188
01:39:27.080 --> 01:39:28.620
the most effective way
1189
01:39:29.080 --> 01:39:29.580
to
1190
01:39:31.295 --> 01:39:32.915
motivate people is to
1191
01:39:33.455 --> 01:39:38.035
to stick to, like, a clear trajectory. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, it's almost like
1192
01:39:38.460 --> 01:39:39.360
like I get
1193
01:39:40.060 --> 01:39:50.045
I I I I but I I respect it. I understand it, and I I I agree that it that it it is it's a true concern. But I I would I would say I would also argue that,
1194
01:39:51.545 --> 01:39:57.005
until, like, 6 months ago, you couldn't even really use a hardware wallet with Bitcoin Core, let alone multisig,
1195
01:39:57.930 --> 01:39:59.550
for for the average user.
1196
01:40:00.330 --> 01:40:01.150
So maybe,
1197
01:40:01.770 --> 01:40:04.830
you know, maybe we're maybe there'll be improvements.
1198
01:40:06.815 --> 01:40:18.949
Yeah. I I you know, again, Matt, this is all sort of advanced stuff, and, again, I I really don't wanna scare people and stop them using whatever that they're on now. That that I think it's important to keep saying saying saying that
1199
01:40:19.250 --> 01:40:27.705
whatever setup you have now, if you've got your coins off the ex exchange, you're doing well. Like like, please do not take what I'm saying as
1200
01:40:28.085 --> 01:40:50.730
advice to go and make a dramatic change. Like, that's the last thing that I want. I I think it's just good that we talk about these these things because where else are we gonna gonna do it? Right? This is this is a good place to have a chat, but I I I don't wanna freak people out. It's just one of those things to be aware of and to think about. And if it worries you, do something about it. And if you're not too sort of concerned,
1201
01:40:51.030 --> 01:40:56.275
that's also fine. You know? It's all up to the individual user and how comfortable
1202
01:40:56.895 --> 01:40:57.875
they sort of are.
1203
01:40:58.655 --> 01:41:07.309
I think that the solutions we have out there are great, and they're getting better, but that doesn't mean that we can't talk about, you know, the sort of next next sort
1204
01:41:07.849 --> 01:41:08.909
of levels and steps.
1205
01:41:10.635 --> 01:41:15.375
Fuck, yes. This is why we dispatch. I hope to have you on many times in the future.
1206
01:41:15.755 --> 01:41:23.559
This is the show that is not embarrassed to have people on multiple times, but just notice that we have people on for the first time they've ever been on a podcast,
1207
01:41:24.659 --> 01:41:27.480
and it's, you know, a fucking fantastic conversation.
1208
01:41:28.179 --> 01:41:38.695
Craig, you have us further down this rabbit hole? You wanna you have you we we hit your main point that you've you've hit me in the past with, and I I need to be a little bit more clear about it. I agree.
1209
01:41:39.270 --> 01:41:41.030
It it is it is a risk.
1210
01:41:41.430 --> 01:41:44.570
What let's go down. You you wanna keep going down this rabbit hole?
1211
01:41:44.950 --> 01:41:47.130
Yeah. Sure. So That's number 2.
1212
01:41:47.875 --> 01:41:48.375
Number
1213
01:41:49.475 --> 01:41:50.215
number 2.
1214
01:41:50.675 --> 01:41:54.035
So I'm gonna speak from a personal kind of,
1215
01:41:54.755 --> 01:41:56.455
experience here. When I
1216
01:41:56.870 --> 01:42:01.850
started building Sparrow back in the day, you know, my whole career has basically been building
1217
01:42:02.389 --> 01:42:03.610
web apps. Right?
1218
01:42:04.070 --> 01:42:07.515
That's the sort of default, and for very good reason. You know, they're an extremely
1219
01:42:08.055 --> 01:42:09.675
powerful way to get,
1220
01:42:11.095 --> 01:42:12.395
applications to people.
1221
01:42:12.935 --> 01:42:13.435
But
1222
01:42:14.350 --> 01:42:17.810
I just thought immediately, like, that's not the right software
1223
01:42:18.510 --> 01:42:19.010
architecture
1224
01:42:19.310 --> 01:42:21.730
for a wallet that I want to use,
1225
01:42:22.625 --> 01:42:25.605
at least part of the time as my cold storage wallet.
1226
01:42:26.545 --> 01:42:28.565
And why is that? Well, you know,
1227
01:42:29.550 --> 01:42:30.850
browsers are just these
1228
01:42:32.190 --> 01:42:38.370
amazing, but also incredibly complex things, you know, and let's be honest, their main purpose is to
1229
01:42:38.695 --> 01:42:40.315
gather all kinds of different
1230
01:42:40.855 --> 01:42:41.355
resources,
1231
01:42:42.135 --> 01:42:43.755
from around the net and
1232
01:42:44.055 --> 01:42:47.995
display them, you know. That's kind of almost about as far away from
1233
01:42:48.320 --> 01:42:50.340
what you want a cold wallet
1234
01:42:50.960 --> 01:42:52.420
to be, you know. It's,
1235
01:42:54.240 --> 01:42:55.140
it just seems
1236
01:42:55.565 --> 01:43:05.250
like a web browser is not the ideal thing, and and, you know, there's plenty of people that have written about, but but but this. It's it's
1237
01:43:05.950 --> 01:43:08.930
it's just strange to me that we are using,
1238
01:43:10.030 --> 01:43:11.730
wallets that are essentially
1239
01:43:12.350 --> 01:43:14.755
sitting in web browsers. And
1240
01:43:16.175 --> 01:43:18.514
I guess I'm just putting it out there because
1241
01:43:19.534 --> 01:43:21.875
maybe I'm completely nuts, but
1242
01:43:23.190 --> 01:43:24.730
I've talked to a few devs.
1243
01:43:25.270 --> 01:43:26.890
I was having a chat to
1244
01:43:27.830 --> 01:43:28.330
Nadav,
1245
01:43:28.790 --> 01:43:29.290
at
1246
01:43:29.765 --> 01:43:30.745
Cishek earlier
1247
01:43:31.205 --> 01:43:43.579
this this sort of week, and he kind of agrees. You know? He he's like, you know, if he he actually made the good point that if you look at how most web applications are made, they're made with JavaScript
1248
01:43:44.440 --> 01:43:48.380
that uses internally this kind of dev tool called NPM.
1249
01:43:49.075 --> 01:43:49.575
And
1250
01:43:50.115 --> 01:43:56.535
what NPM does is it just kind of the the sort of ecosystem uses up a whole lot of really small
1251
01:43:57.100 --> 01:43:57.600
little
1252
01:43:57.980 --> 01:44:00.320
projects or packages. And
1253
01:44:00.940 --> 01:44:09.435
the trouble with that approach is that it's just it becomes hard to sort of audit it. And we have seen, if you cast your mind back to 2018, we had that,
1254
01:44:10.535 --> 01:44:12.875
that dev who actually introduced
1255
01:44:13.335 --> 01:44:13.835
a,
1256
01:44:14.980 --> 01:44:16.360
basically, a Bitcoin
1257
01:44:17.380 --> 01:44:17.880
stealing
1258
01:44:18.980 --> 01:44:21.000
mechanism into one of the,
1259
01:44:21.699 --> 01:44:23.719
packages used by the co pay wallets.
1260
01:44:24.685 --> 01:44:31.825
So, you know, that's a little sort of dev aside side there, but I I just I just wonder about the browser thing,
1261
01:44:32.205 --> 01:44:33.425
and I like to
1262
01:44:33.790 --> 01:44:37.570
get your views. Matt, do do you do you think we should worry worry about it?
1263
01:44:38.270 --> 01:44:41.969
So first of all, Craig, I love you. This is Civil Dispatch.
1264
01:44:42.345 --> 01:44:44.985
We don't mince words here, and we talk frank.
1265
01:44:45.305 --> 01:44:50.445
So so when when he talks about browser based, he means, Spectre is electron based.
1266
01:44:51.520 --> 01:44:53.940
Spectre basically runs in a web browser,
1267
01:44:54.800 --> 01:44:55.760
like a a
1268
01:44:56.160 --> 01:44:58.580
it it runs on the same engine of the browser.
1269
01:44:58.975 --> 01:45:01.395
It's its own little web browser instance.
1270
01:45:02.335 --> 01:45:07.155
And what is the main advantage of that? The main advantage of that is, is cross compatibility.
1271
01:45:08.300 --> 01:45:11.840
They can just easily make it so it it runs on many platforms.
1272
01:45:14.380 --> 01:45:17.120
First of all, Shisek is fucking a boss.
1273
01:45:19.895 --> 01:45:23.195
You know, I I love that dude. I I appreciate him,
1274
01:45:24.215 --> 01:45:30.520
and, I respect his opinion. But, yeah, obviously, it's it's a it's an issue. Right? And and I I think
1275
01:45:31.940 --> 01:45:43.665
I but I think we're in a situation but this is the thing. Right? And I said this to you, Craig. It's like Spyro caught me completely off guard. Like, you came out of nowhere. I don't even know who the fuck you are, and that's the coolest part,
1276
01:45:44.120 --> 01:45:47.340
because I love NIMS. This whole show was designed to pump NIMS.
1277
01:45:48.680 --> 01:45:52.700
But, like, you came out of nowhere with this beautifully designed native application
1278
01:45:53.375 --> 01:45:55.394
that is on multiple platforms,
1279
01:45:56.414 --> 01:46:00.835
that is both user friendly and and beautiful, but also super power
1280
01:46:01.200 --> 01:46:07.540
power user focused, and shows you everything you need to just to see, like, where the fuck did you come from?
1281
01:46:08.160 --> 01:46:12.725
But but but we didn't really have an easy way to interact with Bitcoin Core
1282
01:46:13.265 --> 01:46:15.605
and and multisig hardware wallets,
1283
01:46:16.390 --> 01:46:20.010
and and bring your own signers, and they made it super user friendly.
1284
01:46:21.430 --> 01:46:24.330
And and and I would say from a security point of view,
1285
01:46:24.955 --> 01:46:30.955
if we have these standards on the hardware wallets and you're verifying it, and and to be clear, my guide,
1286
01:46:31.355 --> 01:46:32.735
that I've that I've
1287
01:46:33.590 --> 01:46:36.090
the the main guide that I talk to people about
1288
01:46:36.630 --> 01:46:41.850
is single is we run bitcoin.com. It's single sig cold card with Spectre and core.
1289
01:46:43.065 --> 01:46:45.805
You're verifying everything on the cold card.
1290
01:46:46.265 --> 01:46:51.645
Right? So the trust in the actual software is a privacy trust.
1291
01:46:52.350 --> 01:46:54.530
It's not a security trust because
1292
01:46:55.150 --> 01:46:58.450
because the cold card is acting as a second factor there. Right?
1293
01:47:00.494 --> 01:47:13.880
Yeah. I mean, look, I I think yeah. That's right. It's, it's it's largely about trying to be as private as you can be, you know. I'm not, I I think we are you know, if you're using hot hot hotter wall wallets, you've largely,
1294
01:47:14.500 --> 01:47:20.525
you know, dismissed the chance of losing your funds unless you screw it screw it screw it up. Right? I think that's
1295
01:47:21.245 --> 01:47:24.225
but, you know, from a privacy point of point of view,
1296
01:47:25.540 --> 01:47:28.599
we do need to try and reduce the attacks surface
1297
01:47:28.980 --> 01:47:31.719
surface as much as we can. You know, one can never do
1298
01:47:32.364 --> 01:47:38.145
enough there, but you can you can think about things, and you can try and and kind of approach it from,
1299
01:47:38.925 --> 01:47:40.145
a method that
1300
01:47:40.860 --> 01:47:43.920
doesn't make it too hard to use, but at the same same time,
1301
01:47:44.300 --> 01:47:45.600
kind of, uses
1302
01:47:45.980 --> 01:47:52.315
the kind of tech that leads to the lowest attack surface. That's the way that I like to think about pilot pilot.
1303
01:47:53.014 --> 01:47:58.155
I see there's a comment there, web browser engine is not equal to a web web browser. That is true.
1304
01:47:59.190 --> 01:48:05.690
So the Electron platform is built off Chromium, which is the same thing that powers Google Chrome and Edge and other browsers.
1305
01:48:06.070 --> 01:48:07.850
If you go and have a look at
1306
01:48:08.235 --> 01:48:09.775
at the sort of commit log,
1307
01:48:10.075 --> 01:48:16.415
on that, there's a commit about every 10 to 15 minutes. I mean, it is an amazing open source project,
1308
01:48:16.715 --> 01:48:17.470
it really is,
1309
01:48:18.350 --> 01:48:20.450
and it drives so much of the world. But
1310
01:48:20.830 --> 01:48:27.365
it's just incredibly busy, and if you just think about all the things that it can do, that Chromium,
1311
01:48:28.145 --> 01:48:29.445
sort of engine,
1312
01:48:29.985 --> 01:48:32.085
I think it is a very complex
1313
01:48:33.105 --> 01:48:33.605
thing.
1314
01:48:36.079 --> 01:48:38.260
I'm I'm not comfortable myself
1315
01:48:38.880 --> 01:48:41.039
with the complex plexity there.
1316
01:48:41.840 --> 01:48:51.685
So I I kind of wanted to raise it because it feels to me like we need to talk about it at least a bit. Certainly, the devs that I've spoke spoke spoken to
1317
01:48:52.705 --> 01:48:54.085
tend to to agree.
1318
01:48:55.380 --> 01:48:56.200
So yeah.
1319
01:48:57.940 --> 01:48:59.000
I like your obsession.
1320
01:49:01.300 --> 01:49:04.055
So that Go ahead. Before you get started, Iko,
1321
01:49:04.455 --> 01:49:10.475
just that question was from our boy, Keto. Keto, I just sent you a Telegram message. If you wanna join us in this chat,
1322
01:49:11.190 --> 01:49:13.369
just click that link that I sent you on Telegram.
1323
01:49:13.909 --> 01:49:14.810
Iko, go.
1324
01:49:16.230 --> 01:49:21.995
All I wanted to say was that I I like your approach, and, you know, I think your main point is that
1325
01:49:22.455 --> 01:49:22.955
that's
1326
01:49:23.815 --> 01:49:29.810
widening the attack surface. And if it if it's not necessary, then then why not keep it simple?
1327
01:49:30.190 --> 01:49:32.610
And and I think you've done a really good job with that.
1328
01:49:37.125 --> 01:49:37.864
Yeah. Thanks.
1329
01:49:39.525 --> 01:49:41.305
Kito just asked how many dependencies
1330
01:49:42.005 --> 01:49:42.585
is Spero
1331
01:49:43.260 --> 01:49:48.400
using. That's a really hard question, obviously, to sort of answer because it depends how deep you go to write.
1332
01:49:49.020 --> 01:49:49.420
But,
1333
01:49:49.820 --> 01:49:55.575
if you just look at the sort of build file, there's probably around 15 to 20 or so.
1334
01:49:56.835 --> 01:49:58.615
I don't have an exact figure.
1335
01:50:01.880 --> 01:50:07.580
It's something that I tried really hard to keep as low as I could. Unfortunately, when you've gotta do things like support
1336
01:50:08.195 --> 01:50:10.215
cameras for QR codes and stuff,
1337
01:50:10.835 --> 01:50:11.495
it does
1338
01:50:12.195 --> 01:50:13.655
it is hard to
1339
01:50:14.115 --> 01:50:17.800
keep them down, but there are many times when I sort of just avoided
1340
01:50:18.740 --> 01:50:22.200
doing something a certain way because it would add one more
1341
01:50:22.820 --> 01:50:23.320
dependency.
1342
01:50:24.525 --> 01:50:25.025
So
1343
01:50:25.804 --> 01:50:27.425
it is something that I think
1344
01:50:28.045 --> 01:50:30.065
devs are aware of in the
1345
01:50:30.445 --> 01:50:31.585
space, but
1346
01:50:32.940 --> 01:50:34.400
it's kind of if
1347
01:50:34.700 --> 01:50:36.480
you're going from a browser from
1348
01:50:37.100 --> 01:50:38.960
the start, then there's just a
1349
01:50:39.580 --> 01:50:42.015
whole layer there that you have to be aware of.
1350
01:50:45.295 --> 01:50:45.795
Did,
1351
01:50:46.735 --> 01:50:49.955
we appreciate the discretion. Just to be clear here, Kito is
1352
01:50:50.489 --> 01:50:52.250
Kito is currently in bed. He cannot,
1353
01:50:52.650 --> 01:50:56.429
join us. He he's only participating through via text.
1354
01:50:56.810 --> 01:50:58.590
Hopefully, we will have that in the future.
1355
01:51:00.995 --> 01:51:05.095
Yeah. I mean, I I think this is this is a good this is a good point that you made.
1356
01:51:06.035 --> 01:51:07.015
I think that,
1357
01:51:07.850 --> 01:51:10.590
in general, we wanna have, like, the lightest native
1358
01:51:10.890 --> 01:51:14.785
software possible with the least amount of dependencies. Do we all agree on this?
1359
01:51:15.985 --> 01:51:16.485
Yeah.
1360
01:51:18.625 --> 01:51:19.605
I think so.
1361
01:51:22.260 --> 01:51:28.680
Yeah. I mean, for sure, from my side, you know, and I would certainly like to keep, you know, getting Sparrow's dependencies
1362
01:51:29.060 --> 01:51:32.585
as low as I can. You know, that's always the sort of aim, I think. So,
1363
01:51:33.925 --> 01:51:44.139
yeah, I I mean, I I I I really don't wanna, you know, point fingers, and I think SpecSpectre guys are doing a great job. You know, just the fact that they are helping people get their coins
1364
01:51:44.440 --> 01:51:44.940
offline,
1365
01:51:46.360 --> 01:51:48.219
is is awesome. You know,
1366
01:51:48.885 --> 01:51:52.265
These are just thoughts that I have, and I think it's worth, you know, having
1367
01:51:52.725 --> 01:51:54.265
a chat about about about it.
1368
01:51:55.820 --> 01:51:59.200
Yo. Bitcoiners love Rust, Craig. Do you have an opinion on this?
1369
01:51:59.820 --> 01:52:01.120
I think Rust is great.
1370
01:52:01.500 --> 01:52:03.100
She's a rotten rust.
1371
01:52:03.580 --> 01:52:04.320
He's awesome.
1372
01:52:07.795 --> 01:52:08.775
Kito says,
1373
01:52:10.034 --> 01:52:11.574
thanks for clarifying this.
1374
01:52:12.275 --> 01:52:13.910
Low dependency count is great. Be
1375
01:52:15.350 --> 01:52:16.170
Libs though.
1376
01:52:16.870 --> 01:52:18.490
Completely agree. And
1377
01:52:18.870 --> 01:52:22.570
web view Libs as well, which I've luckily managed to avoid.
1378
01:52:25.505 --> 01:52:30.645
Honestly, Craig, you're killing it. I appreciate you, man. Thank you for joining joining us on dispatch.
1379
01:52:32.010 --> 01:52:36.750
This is just this is just great. This is fan this is why we dispatch. This is the whole point.
1380
01:52:37.290 --> 01:52:44.594
U t s 9 wants to know, and and I'm throwing this question at Craig. For single sig, why would I use cold card with Specter or Sparrow
1381
01:52:44.974 --> 01:52:57.179
and Bitcoin Core or Electrum? Right? You should be using Electrum according to Craig. And not just use Bitcoin Core, just straight up. Like, why like, I I this is the the hot wallet question all over again.
1382
01:52:59.614 --> 01:53:09.059
Well, not really. I mean, you know, if you assume when you say use Bitcoin Core, you mean use the Bitcoin Core GUI or the sort of QT front end. And and there's no
1383
01:53:09.920 --> 01:53:21.315
there's no, you know, technical reason. I think it's just ease of use. You know, the reality is the Bitcoin core wallet must move at the same speed as Bitcoin core. Bitcoin core must, for
1384
01:53:21.775 --> 01:53:24.115
very good reasons, move at a very slow speed.
1385
01:53:24.735 --> 01:53:25.235
So,
1386
01:53:25.680 --> 01:53:26.500
you know, that's,
1387
01:53:26.960 --> 01:53:32.100
I guess, also a case of where you have these 2 kind of things. 1, you have this consensus
1388
01:53:40.780 --> 01:53:45.600
which needs to move a lot faster, and they're currently all tied into 1.
1389
01:53:45.980 --> 01:53:52.425
And as a result, Bitcoin Core's wallet is not that easy to use. So the main reason to use
1390
01:53:52.725 --> 01:54:03.690
Spector or Sparrow rather than Bitcoin Core is just really ease of use. It's it's, it's just quite difficult. It's not an you can do it, but it's it's not so easy.
1391
01:54:04.070 --> 01:54:10.614
And I guess there's more chance of you screwing up if you're using the Bitcoin Core Wallet just because,
1392
01:54:11.554 --> 01:54:16.900
for all the best intentions in the world, it just can't move as quickly and and gets,
1393
01:54:17.840 --> 01:54:19.460
the same kind of UI love.
1394
01:54:20.400 --> 01:54:28.495
I love I love Bitcoin Core as a hot wallet. Like, I think it's just fucking fantastic. I, you know, I I don't know. Like, when I would I when I withdraw
1395
01:54:29.119 --> 01:54:41.975
from so I have my, like, KYC stack that's just like my my fiat job with my fiat check, and my fiat salary just gets sent through Cash App and just comes out the other side of Bitcoin, and it it arrives in a in a core hot wallet.
1396
01:54:42.675 --> 01:54:51.230
And I just like it. It just has very easily coin control and will sync when it syncs, and I don't fucking care. And I just press receive address, and then just fucking do it.
1397
01:54:51.655 --> 01:54:53.195
Just, like, gets the job done.
1398
01:54:53.575 --> 01:54:55.035
Someone asked me,
1399
01:54:55.415 --> 01:54:59.115
do I push back on companies I advise if they use non native? Yeah. I mean,
1400
01:54:59.735 --> 01:55:01.035
there's only one company.
1401
01:55:01.640 --> 01:55:07.260
I advise 3 comp I advise 4 companies right now. Full disclosure, you can view them on mattodell.com,
1402
01:55:08.120 --> 01:55:09.980
all the all the companies I advise.
1403
01:55:11.625 --> 01:55:15.405
I advise 4 companies officially. I advise a shit ton of companies and
1404
01:55:15.945 --> 01:55:18.284
and and founders in the space.
1405
01:55:18.880 --> 01:55:23.380
I do most of it for fucking free, because I want the space to be better, and because,
1406
01:55:24.239 --> 01:55:31.895
there's just so many bad actors out there that that if if people don't do it, then then no one else will. Like, if I don't do it, who else will fucking do it?
1407
01:55:32.275 --> 01:55:39.449
Of the 3 companies that have given me equity, you have Hexa Wallet, which is an actual wallet, and they they're a react native wallet.
1408
01:55:41.989 --> 01:55:43.429
And then then I have 2,
1409
01:55:44.469 --> 01:55:49.585
basically, KYC on ramps to be quite quite frank. I have Swan Bitcoin, and I have Bottlepay.
1410
01:55:50.684 --> 01:55:59.560
And then the 4th company is Bitcoin Magazine. I build them out hourly. They don't give me equity. And if you wanna go and look at the equity, I have it lined up on on mattodell.com,
1411
01:56:01.380 --> 01:56:04.715
which no one else fucking does, and they should all fucking do it.
1412
01:56:05.435 --> 01:56:06.554
And if any of them
1413
01:56:07.355 --> 01:56:10.735
Bitcoin or do anything unethical, I can drop them and publicly,
1414
01:56:11.835 --> 01:56:16.329
call them out, which it says that also on my site. So there's your answer.
1415
01:56:18.309 --> 01:56:19.690
What else do we have here?
1416
01:56:20.070 --> 01:56:24.010
17 dependencies on Sparrow is what 6102 said. Do you have
1417
01:56:24.505 --> 01:56:25.005
a
1418
01:56:26.665 --> 01:56:28.125
does that sound right to you?
1419
01:56:28.505 --> 01:56:31.165
It does. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good
1420
01:56:32.270 --> 01:56:34.690
count, I think. I think he went into the build file.
1421
01:56:35.550 --> 01:56:37.810
Yeah. Welcome to the 6102 show.
1422
01:56:38.750 --> 01:56:39.250
Awesome.
1423
01:56:40.215 --> 01:56:42.635
Just for those of us who don't really understand,
1424
01:56:43.015 --> 01:56:45.435
like, how does that number of dependencies
1425
01:56:45.815 --> 01:56:47.755
compare to other wallets?
1426
01:56:49.349 --> 01:56:50.809
Yeah. So I don't wanna
1427
01:56:51.110 --> 01:57:11.460
I I like, this whole dependency thing is is it's it's easy to just give a figure and and make it sound good or bad. You know? It's it's really about just trying to audit the libraries that a wallet uses. Right? If you've got a 1,000, that's really hard to go in there and sort of order them with them all. It's you know, how often do do do they change?
1428
01:57:11.840 --> 01:57:21.364
That's the kind of kind of thing. I think it's it's, you know, it's it's one of those areas which I I think needs a lot more work. But, you know, the reality is,
1429
01:57:21.745 --> 01:57:23.765
that I was trying to sort of make is,
1430
01:57:24.720 --> 01:57:25.220
the
1431
01:57:25.840 --> 01:57:27.300
sort of JavaScript ecosystem,
1432
01:57:27.680 --> 01:57:30.180
just just the way in which it's evolved
1433
01:57:30.880 --> 01:57:33.824
tends to have like, hundreds of dependencies.
1434
01:57:34.445 --> 01:57:42.130
You know, it's it's just it's a development mindset that they've had, and and there's plenty of good reasons for doing it that way. It just doesn't
1435
01:57:42.750 --> 01:57:47.730
fit the cold storage kind of approach that well, because it makes auditing the soft software
1436
01:57:48.110 --> 01:57:48.610
harder.
1437
01:57:49.535 --> 01:57:53.635
That's that's the the kind of main message that I was trying to make there.
1438
01:57:56.175 --> 01:57:56.675
Cool.
1439
01:57:58.429 --> 01:58:00.050
Yeah. So, I mean, Doug Nebuchadnezzar
1440
01:58:00.429 --> 01:58:05.630
asked like he said, Big Magazine is not listed. I'm trying to figure out I'm I think I need to list them separately because it's
1441
01:58:06.975 --> 01:58:07.475
I
1442
01:58:07.855 --> 01:58:13.715
I don't know if am I supposed to list out everyone I bill out hourly or not. Like, that's, like, their question.
1443
01:58:15.110 --> 01:58:18.570
But to be clear, freaks, like, as number goes up, like, all this is negligible.
1444
01:58:18.950 --> 01:58:25.094
Like, like, Bitcoin Magazine is not paying me enough to to to hold my fucking tongue. Like, I will fucking talk.
1445
01:58:25.475 --> 01:58:33.820
If I if I if I have something to say, I'll fucking say it. No one no one no one can pay me enough to to fucking hold my tongue, and that that's the beauty of Bitcoin.
1446
01:58:36.920 --> 01:58:40.395
Yeah. I mean, so this is this is fucking awesome. Craig, do you have,
1447
01:58:40.875 --> 01:58:46.650
are are we down the rabbit hole? Are we go do we go farther? Is there a farther rabbit hole, or or do have we hit the bottom?
1448
01:58:47.210 --> 01:58:48.989
One more, Matt. One more.
1449
01:58:49.610 --> 01:58:50.730
Okay. Let's go. So
1450
01:58:51.290 --> 01:58:52.190
yeah. So,
1451
01:58:53.449 --> 01:58:56.864
this is something that I I sort of discovered as I was building
1452
01:58:57.804 --> 01:59:04.465
Spyro Spyro Spyro is, you know, you have this idea of you have your cold storage wallet, and you wanna keep it offline
1453
01:59:04.920 --> 01:59:06.539
as much as you can. And
1454
01:59:06.840 --> 01:59:17.784
what's it doing when it's offline? Well, it's obviously sitting in an encrypted format. And as Eco mentioned earlier, we are using the best kind of military grade
1455
01:59:18.485 --> 01:59:22.025
encryption that we we we can, which is AES 255
1456
01:59:22.600 --> 01:59:23.820
6, and that's awesome.
1457
01:59:24.280 --> 01:59:30.860
But one of the things you have to do before you run the encryption algorithm is you have to derive
1458
01:59:31.494 --> 01:59:36.235
a cryptographic key from the password that you enter to open your wallet.
1459
01:59:36.775 --> 01:59:41.159
And there are various algorithms that derive this key. Now
1460
01:59:41.539 --> 01:59:47.880
the one that Electrum uses is incidentally the same one that is used to derive
1461
01:59:48.435 --> 01:59:52.375
your private key from your seat, and it's an algorithm called pbkdf2.
1462
01:59:53.795 --> 01:59:54.935
So great name.
1463
01:59:56.675 --> 01:59:57.495
The unfortunate
1464
01:59:58.580 --> 02:00:00.200
problem with using pbkdf2
1465
02:00:00.820 --> 02:00:05.880
for passwords is that it's really old. It's it's, like, decades old, and
1466
02:00:06.500 --> 02:00:07.560
it's now
1467
02:00:08.295 --> 02:00:09.195
easily attackable,
1468
02:00:09.815 --> 02:00:10.315
by,
1469
02:00:11.335 --> 02:00:13.915
you know, sort of modern hard hardware.
1470
02:00:14.375 --> 02:00:17.495
So you you sort of open yourself up if you
1471
02:00:18.250 --> 02:00:21.789
if somebody has an access to your cold storage wallet file
1472
02:00:22.090 --> 02:00:33.775
to being able to do what they call a rainbow table attack, where they basically feed a whole lot of common phrases in, and they essentially brute force your pass password just by running it through this
1473
02:00:34.075 --> 02:00:35.295
relatively insecure
1474
02:00:35.595 --> 02:00:37.055
key derivation algorithm.
1475
02:00:37.739 --> 02:00:41.840
So, you know, it's a technical deep detail, but I do think it matters.
1476
02:00:43.179 --> 02:00:48.455
And, you know, that's I think there's an interesting aside to that as well.
1477
02:00:48.995 --> 02:00:54.215
If you are writing a piece of software for a mobile wallet, you are greatly limited,
1478
02:00:54.650 --> 02:00:55.870
because you need to support
1479
02:00:56.250 --> 02:01:01.630
a large range, particularly of Android devices, which, as we know, some of some of them can be pretty underpowered.
1480
02:01:02.195 --> 02:01:04.455
You can't choose a particularly hardcore
1481
02:01:05.155 --> 02:01:10.870
key derivation algorithm. You you know? Because you'll sit there waiting for, like, a minute for your wallet wallet to
1482
02:01:11.830 --> 02:01:15.770
open and your phone will be getting hot and your battery will be going down.
1483
02:01:16.070 --> 02:01:18.410
It just doesn't make a lot of sense. So,
1484
02:01:18.745 --> 02:01:23.725
you know, the power of the phone actually limits the algorithm that you can you can choose.
1485
02:01:24.425 --> 02:01:32.380
Now you can always get around this by using a super long pass password of, like, random numbers and letters and punctuation marks.
1486
02:01:32.840 --> 02:01:36.940
But, you know, that, obviously, then increases the risk that you might
1487
02:01:38.185 --> 02:01:39.485
forget that thing or
1488
02:01:40.105 --> 02:01:44.925
write it down or, you know, have it in a place where it can can can be found.
1489
02:01:45.385 --> 02:01:45.885
So
1490
02:01:47.930 --> 02:02:02.455
two points here. 1, using desktop soft soft software means you can leverage the power of your desktop to use a more hardcore key derivation algorithm, which is good. The second is that you need to make sure that that algorithm
1491
02:02:03.190 --> 02:02:11.370
should take around half a second or more to derive the key. If it doesn't, then you're opening yourself up to,
1492
02:02:11.865 --> 02:02:12.685
you know, sort
1493
02:02:14.025 --> 02:02:14.925
of hardware
1494
02:02:15.385 --> 02:02:29.875
GPU type attacks on that particular file. Now, I mean, this this might sound a bit sort of esoteric, you know, what's the chances that someone's gonna get a hold of your wallet file and start doing this? But, you know, I'm trying to look ahead to the point where,
1495
02:02:31.054 --> 02:02:31.715
you know,
1496
02:02:32.255 --> 02:02:32.755
you
1497
02:02:33.695 --> 02:02:37.520
you really just don't wanna have to worry about that, because
1498
02:02:37.820 --> 02:02:40.960
it exists. Right? The tech exists to make that stuff
1499
02:02:41.340 --> 02:02:47.815
really hard to do, and we may as may as well use it. One of the surprising factors is that
1500
02:02:48.115 --> 02:02:49.655
despite being a cryptocurrency,
1501
02:02:50.515 --> 02:02:51.335
the cryptography
1502
02:02:51.875 --> 02:03:05.605
is actually often pretty old school that we are using. And there's no there's not I'm not saying we should be using the thing that was invented last last year, but, you know, using something that was invented in the last decade seems like a good idea.
1503
02:03:06.625 --> 02:03:07.845
So that's kind of
1504
02:03:08.465 --> 02:03:11.605
the the the last point that I wanted to make was, you know,
1505
02:03:13.200 --> 02:03:14.580
really, I think it
1506
02:03:15.120 --> 02:03:15.780
it references
1507
02:03:16.320 --> 02:03:22.425
what you can do on a mobile wallet in terms of securing your wallet file, particularly for cold store storage.
1508
02:03:22.965 --> 02:03:24.344
And I think, you know,
1509
02:03:24.645 --> 02:03:27.065
as I say, I was just really surprised that
1510
02:03:27.605 --> 02:03:28.105
Electrum
1511
02:03:28.724 --> 02:03:30.665
used this relatively insecure,
1512
02:03:32.070 --> 02:03:32.570
key
1513
02:03:33.110 --> 02:03:43.515
derivation algorithm. And and to be honest, I think that that's because they have been around for such an impressively long period of time, and they've targeted such a wide range of
1514
02:03:44.295 --> 02:03:45.835
of of sort of platforms.
1515
02:03:46.935 --> 02:03:55.610
So it's not a slight on them so much as it is just what they have done, you know, and and the the sort of space that they have come from.
1516
02:03:57.405 --> 02:04:00.065
Yeah. That's point number number 3.
1517
02:04:01.965 --> 02:04:08.449
And is that what people are doing when they buy a wallet dot dat file online? Is that how they're trying to brute force it?
1518
02:04:09.070 --> 02:04:13.489
It could be. Yeah. Yeah. So you can encrypt the private keys. If you're using
1519
02:04:13.790 --> 02:04:19.014
a hot wallet with your Bitcoin core wallet, then the private keys you can in encrypt.
1520
02:04:19.715 --> 02:04:29.930
I don't actually know exactly what the key derivation algorithm is that they use. So I don't know how hard that is is to do, but it sounds like that's what they would be doing.
1521
02:04:31.375 --> 02:04:31.875
Interesting.
1522
02:04:34.655 --> 02:04:35.955
I mean, so yeah. I
1523
02:04:37.110 --> 02:04:44.489
this goes hand in hand with the fact that I think, like, Sparrow, it like, there's no reason to use the Electrum front end anymore.
1524
02:04:45.105 --> 02:04:45.925
It's like
1525
02:04:46.304 --> 02:04:49.284
if if if you want super user friendly, use Spectre.
1526
02:04:49.824 --> 02:04:51.185
And then if you want
1527
02:04:51.744 --> 02:04:56.700
if you're an advanced user, then you use Sparrow, and there's just no reason to use Electrum.
1528
02:04:59.240 --> 02:05:08.614
Yeah. I mean, sure. But I I I think, you know, we shouldn't knock it out. I I like to him too much. You know, the the the fact that they've just been they've been around for so long, Matt,
1529
02:05:09.554 --> 02:05:14.000
that code has had so many eyeballs on it. So many transactions have gone through it.
1530
02:05:14.960 --> 02:05:16.420
There's value in that.
1531
02:05:17.680 --> 02:05:18.180
So
1532
02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:20.260
I still have a bit of love there.
1533
02:05:23.074 --> 02:05:23.574
Fair.
1534
02:05:25.875 --> 02:05:27.335
Just to be clear, that's
1535
02:05:27.795 --> 02:05:29.175
that's different than
1536
02:05:29.590 --> 02:05:34.150
saying using Electrum personal server. Right? You guys are talking about 2 different
1537
02:05:34.950 --> 02:05:38.330
Yeah. I'm talking about the front end. Using. Okay. Okay. Alright.
1538
02:05:39.965 --> 02:05:46.705
Right, Craig? We're talking we're talking about the front end here. We're talking about deriving keys. Correct. And and and and and for a practical point of view
1539
02:05:47.130 --> 02:05:49.070
practical point of view, the big
1540
02:05:49.530 --> 02:05:50.990
the big no no
1541
02:05:52.250 --> 02:05:55.950
the the big no no that that we all learned as Bitcoiners
1542
02:05:56.515 --> 02:05:57.975
was Blockchain dot info,
1543
02:05:59.155 --> 02:06:00.455
when they did the
1544
02:06:01.155 --> 02:06:04.775
they were using random dot org or whatever for their key generation.
1545
02:06:07.740 --> 02:06:09.520
Yeah. Do you wanna talk about this, Craig?
1546
02:06:10.380 --> 02:06:14.955
Well, yeah. I mean, you know, that's, I think that was more to derive the nonce.
1547
02:06:15.515 --> 02:06:17.855
I don't know too much about that, to be honest.
1548
02:06:18.635 --> 02:06:22.255
But, you know, it's yeah. So I can't really talk too much of that, I'm afraid.
1549
02:06:22.720 --> 02:06:24.980
Was so what happened was they were using random.org
1550
02:06:25.440 --> 02:06:27.220
as their source of of entropy.
1551
02:06:28.400 --> 02:06:34.005
And when you when you if you wanna do key generation in a safe way, you need a source of entropy, so
1552
02:06:35.265 --> 02:06:36.485
forget about the algorithm.
1553
02:06:37.825 --> 02:06:42.120
The entropy is more important. The algorithm is important, but the entropy is more important.
1554
02:06:42.580 --> 02:06:43.880
And they were using random.orgorrandom.com.
1555
02:06:45.620 --> 02:06:47.160
I don't know which one it was.
1556
02:06:47.965 --> 02:06:49.425
And and there was, like,
1557
02:06:50.365 --> 02:06:58.440
a, you know, like, a 4 or 4 error or something. Like, they couldn't connect to it. So, like, there was a bunch of keys generated in that middle time where it was just
1558
02:06:59.060 --> 02:07:02.040
there was they were using no entropy. It was just the same
1559
02:07:02.420 --> 02:07:03.480
it was the same
1560
02:07:05.405 --> 02:07:21.210
entropy. So, like, so so that's this is why when I say say to people use cold card, like, roll your dice. Right? Add entropy. You're not you don't wanna trust when we say entropy, we mean randomness. Like, you don't you don't wanna trust the randomness of whatever your device is generating.
1561
02:07:24.215 --> 02:07:25.655
Would you agree, Craig? Like
1562
02:07:26.055 --> 02:07:29.034
Yeah. For sure. Like, the entry is the most important part. Right?
1563
02:07:29.415 --> 02:07:39.985
Always roll the dice. Always roll roll roll the dice. But, also, like, don't you know, there are there are so many things to think think about but but here, you know. I think, to be honest, I think that that risk,
1564
02:07:40.365 --> 02:07:41.905
has been a little bit overblown.
1565
02:07:42.365 --> 02:07:46.945
It's super important, but, you know, it's it's almost like it has become the
1566
02:07:47.740 --> 02:07:49.440
the, I don't know, the the sort of,
1567
02:07:50.300 --> 02:07:51.920
dominant factor at times.
1568
02:07:53.180 --> 02:07:54.940
You know, I I really
1569
02:07:56.135 --> 02:08:06.040
sorry, Matt. If you have, like, a closed source wall if you have, like, a closed source wallet that allows you to roll dice, like, it doesn't matter. Like, it's still closed source. Like, no fucking idea if they're using the dice or not.
1570
02:08:06.840 --> 02:08:07.740
Alright. Yeah.
1571
02:08:08.120 --> 02:08:08.840
For sure.
1572
02:08:09.320 --> 02:08:12.460
You know, I mean, honestly, the chances of your cold card,
1573
02:08:13.240 --> 02:08:14.700
you know, giving you
1574
02:08:15.175 --> 02:08:22.315
bad random numb numbers are are really, really small, but it's easy to roll the dice, so do it. You know, that's that's my sort of advice.
1575
02:08:22.690 --> 02:08:28.309
Well, I think I would I would say the argument is it's if if we can get it into standard practice
1576
02:08:28.610 --> 02:08:29.110
that
1577
02:08:29.705 --> 02:08:32.045
if you're a cold card user, you're gonna use your
1578
02:08:32.505 --> 02:08:33.405
own dice entropy,
1579
02:08:33.945 --> 02:08:38.665
then suddenly it takes an attack vector away from, Rodolfo. Right? It's like,
1580
02:08:39.550 --> 02:08:41.410
it and and it's not just Rodolfo
1581
02:08:41.710 --> 02:08:47.410
possibly attacking you, it's anyone attacking Rodolfo to attack the entropy, and they won't because
1582
02:08:47.765 --> 02:08:50.185
they just know that all the users are gonna roll dice.
1583
02:08:51.605 --> 02:08:52.105
Yeah.
1584
02:08:52.485 --> 02:08:54.025
I think that that's a great argument.
1585
02:08:56.220 --> 02:09:00.960
So I mean, I I'm curious, Craig, like, you've been kinda quiet about, like, CoinJoin and shit.
1586
02:09:01.500 --> 02:09:07.265
Like, how do you feel about on chain privacy with Like, I know Iko is, like, super pro.
1587
02:09:08.045 --> 02:09:09.345
He's been pushing this,
1588
02:09:10.605 --> 02:09:20.070
samurai is is the leader in pay join adoption. They call it stowaway by them. They added this whole new tour layer called Soroban, where you can communicate between the users.
1589
02:09:20.770 --> 02:09:24.765
They're doing this thing that I wanted to talk about this episode called Greta's Fury,
1590
02:09:25.705 --> 02:09:29.085
which is I guess, it's important to trigger the blue checks by
1591
02:09:29.865 --> 02:09:31.640
by by bringing Greta into it.
1592
02:09:32.280 --> 02:09:33.820
But the idea is to, like,
1593
02:09:34.600 --> 02:09:39.660
kind of destroy the transaction graph by just doing all these pay joins in a row.
1594
02:09:40.375 --> 02:09:44.235
They call them stowaways. It requires these PayNMs, BIP 47.
1595
02:09:44.775 --> 02:09:50.870
So, like, I'm just really curious, like, on your opinion, and and this opinion is not stated yet. I'm curious of opinion on,
1596
02:09:51.730 --> 02:09:53.110
Chaumian coin joints.
1597
02:09:53.410 --> 02:09:55.510
I'm curious on your opinion on join market.
1598
02:09:55.890 --> 02:09:57.990
I'm curious on your opinion on
1599
02:09:58.375 --> 02:10:00.795
on on, like, this this samurai
1600
02:10:01.175 --> 02:10:14.560
this samurai post mix tool not post mix tools, just just spending tools, stowaway, stonewall. Stonewall is is basically a I don't know how familiar you are with the samurai stack, but I'm just curious on all of these on chain,
1601
02:10:15.665 --> 02:10:19.445
privacy things and and how where you stand here, how
1602
02:10:20.304 --> 02:10:25.570
into them you are. Like, are you paying attention to them, or did you not care about them? Where where do you stand?
1603
02:10:26.430 --> 02:10:27.330
Sure. So,
1604
02:10:28.990 --> 02:10:30.530
let's go through through them.
1605
02:10:30.990 --> 02:10:31.490
So
1606
02:10:32.295 --> 02:10:38.695
CoinJoin, I think, is great. I I don't like the fact that it's not a stand standardized thing.
1607
02:10:39.415 --> 02:10:40.075
You know,
1608
02:10:40.730 --> 02:10:47.450
at least from a Aspero development point of view, I've really tried to go down a standards based route.
1609
02:10:48.890 --> 02:10:49.390
And
1610
02:10:50.175 --> 02:10:56.415
that's the one thing that worries me. The other thing is fees. So, you know, the mem mempool is,
1611
02:10:56.815 --> 02:11:01.570
or I don't know. It's really high. Like, I'm not sure what it is right now, but,
1612
02:11:03.389 --> 02:11:04.690
it's going to
1613
02:11:05.230 --> 02:11:21.620
only get more. And I think that that is that is you know, that that that just worries me as a long term plan. Like, it's great today. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, if the fee market continues to develop as it's doing, I I do worry a little bit about whether
1614
02:11:22.720 --> 02:11:27.300
most people are gonna be prepared to pay the fees that will be required to be paid.
1615
02:11:28.225 --> 02:11:39.000
So that's the sort of CoinJoin side. I have done Coin Joins. I think they're great. I think it's a great tool. I'm very happy we have access to it. Am I gonna build it into Sparrow? I'm not yet sure because of those
1616
02:11:39.300 --> 02:11:39.800
reasons.
1617
02:11:41.700 --> 02:11:44.360
Pay join is built into Spiro Spiro.
1618
02:11:44.820 --> 02:11:46.435
I think it's excellent.
1619
02:11:46.974 --> 02:11:50.195
I think the one flaw in Pay join that we have
1620
02:11:50.655 --> 02:11:52.915
is that it currently requires this
1621
02:11:53.300 --> 02:12:00.680
server kind of into it. So that's the way that it's usually implemented. So you But it's interact life. What are you gonna do?
1622
02:12:01.865 --> 02:12:15.260
Well, that's that's okay. But the the issue is that you have to have, like, a BDC pay server, which has an HTTP end endpoint, right, that that you can then talk talk to. Right? And I I would really like to see
1623
02:12:15.765 --> 02:12:21.784
individual wallets being able to talk to each other. Now that's obviously what samurai have built with Soroban,
1624
02:12:22.324 --> 02:12:33.165
and that's awesome. And that's something that's really, really interesting, and I'm hoping that that becomes some kind of a spec so we can all build it and all of the wallets can then take part. Right? Because,
1625
02:12:33.705 --> 02:12:34.365
I mean,
1626
02:12:34.905 --> 02:12:41.989
just think think think think about it. If every Bitcoin transaction you send, you just paid a little bit more and made it a pay join,
1627
02:12:42.449 --> 02:12:45.670
it's just so much easier to break the heuristics
1628
02:12:46.449 --> 02:12:52.865
than everyone doing coin joins. I mean, it's just, for me, as a dev back, just makes a huge amount of sense. So,
1629
02:12:53.805 --> 02:12:55.565
that's something I'm super keen on,
1630
02:12:56.205 --> 02:12:59.105
and it uses BIP 49 now. So
1631
02:12:59.550 --> 02:13:03.010
that's definitely something that I need to look into and and sort of,
1632
02:13:03.870 --> 02:13:07.810
figure out whether I need to add that as the first step to getting
1633
02:13:08.190 --> 02:13:08.690
a
1634
02:13:09.375 --> 02:13:13.474
Soroban or Soroban like layer so we can start doing
1635
02:13:13.775 --> 02:13:16.675
pay joins between wallets rather than between
1636
02:13:17.429 --> 02:13:18.570
wallets and,
1637
02:13:19.350 --> 02:13:29.994
some merchant wallets, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean, so there's like a fight here. There's a fight. There's a fight between, like, the b d c pay wasabi crowd, and
1638
02:13:31.530 --> 02:13:36.190
it's like every good thing I get stuck in the middle. Like, the important thing as a BitCorner is,
1639
02:13:36.570 --> 02:13:47.205
like, if you're a public BitCorner doing content like this every week, like, if you're not getting stuck in the middle of multiple fights, like, you're just doing things wrong. Like, that's just what I've come to conclusion of.
1640
02:13:47.745 --> 02:13:52.700
But, like, the was Bobby BTC pay decided they they're gonna have their own fucking pay join implementation.
1641
02:13:53.880 --> 02:13:55.180
Their pay join implementation,
1642
02:13:55.560 --> 02:13:57.020
it revolves around
1643
02:13:57.385 --> 02:13:59.165
the merchant customer experience.
1644
02:13:59.865 --> 02:14:03.805
Samura is like, fuck you. We think p to p is the way.
1645
02:14:04.345 --> 02:14:09.260
Okay? And p to p, we don't have to have an online server. All we have to do is
1646
02:14:09.960 --> 02:14:15.740
the receiver needs to be ready to accept his payment. That's it. Right? And that's what Stowaway is.
1647
02:14:16.425 --> 02:14:18.925
Basically, he just needs to be online ready to go,
1648
02:14:19.225 --> 02:14:26.790
but there's no, like, server or whatever. Right? It's just he's he just, like, goes into his app, and he's, like, I'm gonna go connect to Tor and make this shit happen.
1649
02:14:28.610 --> 02:14:42.460
Yeah. Yeah. And I I, you know, I I think that that that for me is the way that it needs to work. And and there's no technical reason why that can't can't happen. Like, you know, some some some some arrive, obviously, built it. It works.
1650
02:14:43.000 --> 02:14:48.540
Why can't we all do it? It just makes so much sense. So so I really hope that we see
1651
02:14:49.235 --> 02:14:53.655
a spec because we're not gonna get broad global adopt adopt
1652
02:14:54.675 --> 02:14:59.980
option across wallets until we have some kind of kind of a BIP. And that's, you know, one thing that
1653
02:15:01.719 --> 02:15:10.535
the BDC pay guys did is they wrote BIP 78, right, which is the pay join BIP. And as a result, that is the sort of implementation.
1654
02:15:11.155 --> 02:15:15.495
Now I know that the sum of SunRail guys, if you suggest that they do a BIP, they will,
1655
02:15:15.980 --> 02:15:16.860
well, they won't,
1656
02:15:17.900 --> 02:15:21.120
ignore that. They're never gonna do that. They're never gonna do that. They don't agree with the bid process.
1657
02:15:21.900 --> 02:15:23.520
They disagree with the bid process,
1658
02:15:23.900 --> 02:15:27.825
from a principle point of view. But but so so so my question
1659
02:15:28.285 --> 02:15:30.625
my I I get my question to you is,
1660
02:15:33.220 --> 02:15:37.720
I mean I mean, so these paid joins are cool. Like, I I think this is, like, a cool concept.
1661
02:15:38.340 --> 02:15:41.000
I like the idea of of Sarban.
1662
02:15:42.825 --> 02:15:47.805
You mentioned fees. I mean, like, fees are just gonna go up. Right? Like, no matter what, fees go up.
1663
02:15:48.425 --> 02:15:58.210
I think I think people need to like, people are get we're we need people to be educated to realize that privacy is worth the additional payment. It'll always be more expensive.
1664
02:16:00.515 --> 02:16:09.560
Yeah. But I I think that we need to try and, you know, as best as we can be be sort of clever about the way that we do it. I mean, think about a pay join in
1665
02:16:10.420 --> 02:16:20.845
every wallet. Right? Everyone's being encouraged to pay join. I mean, it it would break every Chainalysis company. It's game over, you know, if you can get to that that sort of point.
1666
02:16:22.265 --> 02:16:23.325
I think it's a goal.
1667
02:16:24.825 --> 02:16:30.670
The the the thing that that really so like I said, I'm stuck in the middle of all these guys.
1668
02:16:34.410 --> 02:16:41.615
And I I really do I and and and the Samura guys will hate me for it. I really do believe the Wasabi guys are trying their best,
1669
02:16:42.235 --> 02:16:49.240
that that they have best intentions in mind, and the Wasabi guys will hate me when I say that I think the Samura guys have best intentions in mind.
1670
02:16:50.500 --> 02:16:55.226
A lot of this argument resulted it came from BIP 47, which is PayNibs.
1671
02:16:56.485 --> 02:16:59.305
BIP 47, these these payment codes.
1672
02:17:00.485 --> 02:17:03.625
This idea that you can accept a donation with text,
1673
02:17:04.489 --> 02:17:06.270
almost stealth address, like,
1674
02:17:07.290 --> 02:17:10.830
with just with just like a plain text. You have, like, a plain text
1675
02:17:11.676 --> 02:17:15.535
characters, and you can accept a payment in a semi private way,
1676
02:17:16.075 --> 02:17:19.056
where on chain privacy doesn't completely destroy you.
1677
02:17:20.120 --> 02:17:24.300
And they just got wrecked. They got wrecked on the BIP 47 thing. Like,
1678
02:17:24.920 --> 02:17:29.645
Luke was against it. Everyone was against it. They've discouraged it for for usage.
1679
02:17:30.825 --> 02:17:32.605
And they built they built their whole wallet
1680
02:17:33.145 --> 02:17:33.965
around bit 47.
1681
02:17:36.239 --> 02:17:44.420
And and and in in their defense, it makes sense to me. It it seems it seems the right path to go. It's like almost a distributed,
1682
02:17:46.115 --> 02:17:49.255
identifier for wallets so that you can create a new,
1683
02:17:50.516 --> 02:17:51.016
addresses.
1684
02:17:51.955 --> 02:17:54.695
62102 wants to mention that he's blocked by Wasabi,
1685
02:17:55.130 --> 02:17:56.030
and he thinks it's hilarious.
1686
02:17:58.250 --> 02:18:14.075
What do you Craig, do you have a feeling on bit 47? Like, do you have any opinion here? Like, I I like, I it amazes me that the thinkers of Bitcoin, like, the smart guys in Bitcoin don't talk about bit 47 ever, and I just I always am just constantly trying to figure out why.
1687
02:18:15.640 --> 02:18:16.780
Yeah. I mean, look,
1688
02:18:17.320 --> 02:18:30.935
direct answer, Matt, is is is no. I actually really need to get into the spec spec spec and see whether it it sort of makes sense. I understand that there's been a recent change. I haven't got into that change change yet. I was concerned
1689
02:18:31.700 --> 02:18:32.680
about the additional
1690
02:18:33.220 --> 02:18:37.320
transaction that was required, but I I Yeah. But whatever, bro.
1691
02:18:38.965 --> 02:18:50.600
Yeah. Now they they've removed the requirement, and and in Sariban, it goes just just through a Tor layer. But but regardless of the requirement, like, this idea like, do you agree with me, like, this idea that, like,
1692
02:18:51.380 --> 02:18:56.625
with Bitcoin, like, you should be able to just, like, post text. I should be able to just, like, post
1693
02:18:57.564 --> 02:19:05.200
a fucking sentence that allows you to donate to me in a semi private way without, like, me doxing my whole on chain balance.
1694
02:19:05.740 --> 02:19:16.505
Like, that should just be that I that should be a capability of Bitcoin. Right? Like, I easy donations without BTC pay server. I don't want BTC pay server. I just wanna fucking post something on Twitter
1695
02:19:16.885 --> 02:19:23.851
and just be, like, if you wanna donate to me, this is the how you donate to me and, like, every wallet supports it. Do we agree that that should be a fucking thing?
1696
02:19:24.551 --> 02:19:25.051
Absolutely.
1697
02:19:26.150 --> 02:19:26.971
Fuck. Yeah.
1698
02:19:28.365 --> 02:19:33.985
Fuck. Yeah. Exactly. And that's what PayNim attempts to solve. Like, it's not perfect. I don't pretend it's perfect,
1699
02:19:34.365 --> 02:19:48.165
but that's that's what they attempt to solve. And the major negative is that it's just only Bitcoin. Only only only the samurai allows you to to spend it, which is the is the major negative. Like, if if you need them to be on Android
1700
02:19:48.865 --> 02:19:52.325
and you need them to be using Samura, otherwise, they can't donate to you.
1701
02:19:53.185 --> 02:19:55.665
But we need to get past that. I just I just need
1702
02:19:56.690 --> 02:19:59.510
I think people need a way to just easily accept
1703
02:20:01.090 --> 02:20:01.590
Bitcoin
1704
02:20:02.210 --> 02:20:09.545
in a private way, in a at least in a more private way than just fixed address. Like, fixed address is not private at all,
1705
02:20:10.886 --> 02:20:11.205
and,
1706
02:20:12.085 --> 02:20:18.471
and it just needs to be done. Like, it's a major pain point. It's it's one of those things that's, like, everyone's getting censored. No one can
1707
02:20:19.170 --> 02:20:23.375
everyone's having trouble receiving donations, like, we should have an easy way for them to do it.
1708
02:20:24.495 --> 02:20:30.595
Well, Matt, you'll be happy to know that it is literally the next thing on my list, so I am keen to get involved.
1709
02:20:31.215 --> 02:20:36.280
Yeah. I'm Yeah. It's it's it's I I completely agree agree with you.
1710
02:20:37.300 --> 02:20:49.325
The I I guess the the the one thing that was making me a bit uncomfortable, and it's probably just a result of me not understanding the spec spec well, is how much of this is tied into paynems.com.
1711
02:20:50.780 --> 02:20:54.319
I don't think it is, but I just need to go and kind of really
1712
02:20:54.780 --> 02:20:59.200
make sure that it's a standards based approach. Because if it is, then we should use it.
1713
02:20:59.965 --> 02:21:05.425
Oh, no. So the the the part that's PayNIMs is instead of, like, a payment code, it's just the NIM.
1714
02:21:06.780 --> 02:21:09.520
Is is that that part's tied into paynips.is.
1715
02:21:11.100 --> 02:21:20.465
So, like, the idea that you could be, like but you the way you use SloppyBot 52 or or whatever, and then you look up SloppyBot 52 and it's, like, the payment code,
1716
02:21:21.005 --> 02:21:21.905
that is centralized.
1717
02:21:23.860 --> 02:21:37.455
Okay. Which I think is, like, a decent enough trade trade off. Like, the idea that, like, you just have to look up the payment code somewhere because, like, you don't want to type in, like, 55 letters and numbers instead of, sloppy bot 52.
1718
02:21:38.555 --> 02:21:44.851
Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. I wonder if other wallets can integrate into that or whether it's
1719
02:21:46.351 --> 02:21:50.290
a it's just just, you know, sort of a We're not samurai wallet thing.
1720
02:21:51.095 --> 02:22:02.229
Well, look look, if if you if you wanna implement a new standard, like, we can make that happen. If you want to integrate with Pay Name, you let me know. I I can make that happen, You know? Like, we we whatever it is.
1721
02:22:02.609 --> 02:22:07.109
Like, let's make this fucking thing happen. Like, this is, like, a thing that I think is super important.
1722
02:22:07.745 --> 02:22:19.720
I've I talked about earlier that I'm advising Hexa Wallet. It's not a coincidence that Hexa Wallet has a donation mode that gives you, like, a borderline BTC pay type custodial. It's like a it's custodial privacy relationship,
1723
02:22:20.420 --> 02:22:22.280
but you hold your own keys.
1724
02:22:23.335 --> 02:22:26.075
Luke was against that too. Of course, he was.
1725
02:22:27.255 --> 02:22:34.770
But, like, I I think that's super important, like, people we're gonna have more and more people, especially in the Western world, that get deplatformed
1726
02:22:35.070 --> 02:22:42.165
from all these donation platforms, you know, like the GoFundMe's and the Kickstarters and shit. And they're gonna want an easy way to do it,
1727
02:22:42.625 --> 02:22:44.645
and that easy way can't be
1728
02:22:45.345 --> 02:22:51.200
either paste a fucking fixed address or go b t c pay server. Like, we need to have a middle ground.
1729
02:22:53.181 --> 02:22:54.880
Agreed, Matt. Agreed.
1730
02:22:55.355 --> 02:22:57.455
Agreed. I'm gonna I'm gonna dive
1731
02:22:58.315 --> 02:22:58.815
in.
1732
02:22:59.755 --> 02:23:03.295
Yeah. I can't wait to see a second while it integrate the payments
1733
02:23:03.596 --> 02:23:04.495
for bit 47.
1734
02:23:06.300 --> 02:23:10.159
Basically, just need we get one iPhone wallet to do it, and then we're good.
1735
02:23:10.540 --> 02:23:11.279
That's it.
1736
02:23:11.580 --> 02:23:14.000
And then chain analysis is totally fine.
1737
02:23:17.135 --> 02:23:19.774
I love it. Well so so the cool part about
1738
02:23:21.055 --> 02:23:23.720
well, no. The reason he says that is because once you have
1739
02:23:26.920 --> 02:23:29.000
the Pay NIMs with Soroban now, if they integrate Soroban as well, then you can do,
1740
02:23:29.720 --> 02:23:43.141
then you can do a stowaway for pay join or you can do a stonewall times 2 where 2 people do a coin join, and then it pays out to a third person who doesn't even accept. They just give you a regular Bitcoin address.
1741
02:23:44.000 --> 02:23:47.061
And that like, that's kind of the situation we wanna be in, I think.
1742
02:23:47.840 --> 02:23:49.141
Yeah. It's pretty cool.
1743
02:23:53.285 --> 02:23:56.585
So, I mean, we're, like, 2 and a half hours in here. This has been fantastic.
1744
02:23:58.850 --> 02:24:02.470
How do you get a fixed address? I don't even know what he's talking about.
1745
02:24:04.050 --> 02:24:09.175
So, I mean, a big thing in this podcast, which is hilarious because I'm in it for the tech,
1746
02:24:10.275 --> 02:24:10.775
is
1747
02:24:11.395 --> 02:24:17.015
I make sure that every single person that comes on the show, and I expect you guys to come on as a return guest,
1748
02:24:19.160 --> 02:24:22.620
Answers the question, do you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
1749
02:24:24.280 --> 02:24:26.540
I'm gonna start with Eco. Eco,
1750
02:24:29.495 --> 02:24:32.715
does does the the purchasing power of Bitcoin ever stop?
1751
02:24:36.030 --> 02:24:37.891
No. I don't think it does.
1752
02:24:39.230 --> 02:24:44.535
You know, I'm not I I I wanna be clear. I am not a NGU fan,
1753
02:24:45.715 --> 02:24:46.215
but
1754
02:24:46.675 --> 02:24:47.495
I don't think
1755
02:24:48.436 --> 02:24:49.655
Bitcoin is ever
1756
02:24:50.850 --> 02:24:53.989
going back to 0 or even close to it.
1757
02:24:56.290 --> 02:24:58.630
More or less, it is a one way street.
1758
02:25:02.895 --> 02:25:03.395
Craig?
1759
02:25:06.095 --> 02:25:07.475
It's gonna keep going
1760
02:25:07.830 --> 02:25:09.770
until something better comes along,
1761
02:25:11.189 --> 02:25:13.930
and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
1762
02:25:15.215 --> 02:25:18.435
So look, I mean, guys, nothing lasts forever. Right?
1763
02:25:18.895 --> 02:25:21.075
Things always stay. Bitcoin does.
1764
02:25:21.615 --> 02:25:21.854
Maybe
1765
02:25:23.311 --> 02:25:29.650
I I think this is too much to outlive all of us that are listening to this today. I agree. I completely agree.
1766
02:25:30.965 --> 02:25:38.024
So, I mean, I talked about this with the mooch, and I was like, I I don't wanna argue about things that my grandkids can argue with your grandkids about.
1767
02:25:38.645 --> 02:25:39.145
But,
1768
02:25:40.190 --> 02:25:45.010
I mean, I think I I see a world where Bitcoin when Bitcoin ultimately gets replaced,
1769
02:25:45.470 --> 02:25:47.970
but they there's, like, some hypothetical new technology,
1770
02:25:49.785 --> 02:25:56.125
The inertia the social inertia will be to take the Bitcoin ledger and transplant it onto the new technology.
1771
02:25:57.000 --> 02:26:05.899
So I think Bitcoin never dies if you care about the ledger. If the if if the ownership ledger is what you're talking about, it it literally would never die.
1772
02:26:07.085 --> 02:26:08.945
Yeah. Sure. Sure. Agreed.
1773
02:26:09.645 --> 02:26:11.266
What I'm talking about is,
1774
02:26:12.605 --> 02:26:15.825
really more time to be technically correct than useful.
1775
02:26:16.859 --> 02:26:18.079
I agree with you guys.
1776
02:26:18.859 --> 02:26:24.935
Yeah. I'm glad that I have both of you on the record saying that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, so I appreciate that.
1777
02:26:25.494 --> 02:26:30.234
So another reoccurring segment we have on this show is how would you kill Bitcoin.
1778
02:26:30.774 --> 02:26:31.255
And,
1779
02:26:31.895 --> 02:26:36.410
I had Wiz on the show last week, and he asked me to define kill and Bitcoin.
1780
02:26:36.870 --> 02:26:38.410
So I'm gonna change it,
1781
02:26:38.790 --> 02:26:42.090
the the the the wording, and I'm gonna ask you,
1782
02:26:43.465 --> 02:26:44.604
if you are
1783
02:26:44.984 --> 02:26:49.564
the most powerful governments in the world, so let's say you're US or China,
1784
02:26:50.330 --> 02:26:53.149
or let's we'll just throw Russia in there, whatever. Fuck it.
1785
02:26:53.609 --> 02:26:55.149
You're one of those 3 governments.
1786
02:26:55.689 --> 02:27:00.574
You want to stop Bitcoin. How do you stop Bitcoin? We will start with Eco. Go.
1787
02:27:02.954 --> 02:27:04.335
Yeah, Dan. Good question.
1788
02:27:07.140 --> 02:27:07.800
I would
1789
02:27:08.580 --> 02:27:09.080
initiate
1790
02:27:09.460 --> 02:27:12.600
a very elaborate media campaign of
1791
02:27:13.685 --> 02:27:18.744
very rich and in the spotlight CEOs to start acquiring Bitcoin
1792
02:27:19.524 --> 02:27:22.640
and to get as many people rallied around it as possible.
1793
02:27:23.340 --> 02:27:24.080
And then,
1794
02:27:25.500 --> 02:27:31.885
once everyone is is brainwashed by what these CEOs are saying to them and talking about the NGU,
1795
02:27:32.505 --> 02:27:37.885
then I would tell the CEOs that they need to hand over their bitcoin in a 6102
1796
02:27:38.265 --> 02:27:39.165
style order
1797
02:27:39.620 --> 02:27:41.320
and get those CEOs to
1798
02:27:41.700 --> 02:27:44.660
tell all the people that have been following them that,
1799
02:27:45.540 --> 02:27:47.960
that that giving the government custody
1800
02:27:48.415 --> 02:27:54.115
is a good thing for Bitcoin and and that this is how we, quote, unquote, achieve world reserve status,
1801
02:27:54.495 --> 02:27:57.635
and the crowds cheer themselves on into a cage.
1802
02:27:58.360 --> 02:28:01.420
And then, and then, I don't know, maybe start requiring,
1803
02:28:04.280 --> 02:28:06.780
social security numbers and op return
1804
02:28:07.115 --> 02:28:10.655
and get someone to infiltrate the Bitcoin core devs to
1805
02:28:11.195 --> 02:28:12.735
have that rolled into it.
1806
02:28:14.475 --> 02:28:15.215
And then
1807
02:28:16.479 --> 02:28:27.346
who knows where it goes from there? But, yeah, I and I and I'm kind of alluding to the fact that I think some of this might be in play already with Michael Saylor and and Elon Elon Musk. And,
1808
02:28:28.365 --> 02:28:35.200
I I think there's some dangerous memes out there. I think number go up is a very dangerous meme. I think this Trojan horse
1809
02:28:35.820 --> 02:28:37.920
idea is a is a dangerous meme.
1810
02:28:38.300 --> 02:28:43.725
And I think people really need to to proceed with caution, and they need to understand their trade offs,
1811
02:28:44.284 --> 02:28:47.024
and they need to weigh their options, and they need to
1812
02:28:48.284 --> 02:28:56.439
to be very careful how they move forward, and they need to keep their identities out of it And go non KYC and make every Spend a Coin join.
1813
02:29:03.445 --> 02:29:05.065
That was a really good answer.
1814
02:29:05.686 --> 02:29:13.420
I'm I'm not sure I can top that, to be honest, or actually add much to it. I I would be much more brief and say,
1815
02:29:15.240 --> 02:29:20.195
the the the best way to do it is to adopt, infiltrate, and subvert,
1816
02:29:21.295 --> 02:29:25.395
which is basically what Iko just just said in a much better way.
1817
02:29:26.880 --> 02:29:33.779
I do think it can be done. There are not that many individuals. In fact, I was really surprised at how small
1818
02:29:34.285 --> 02:29:43.870
the community actually is. You know, it it appears from the outside, maybe not to everyone, but it appears to be quite large, and maybe it's growing at a pace. But it's,
1819
02:29:45.390 --> 02:29:50.450
if you if you get into it and and, you you know, the the people who are building and,
1820
02:29:51.470 --> 02:29:52.750
you know, adding and
1821
02:29:53.230 --> 02:29:56.275
I mean, by that, I certainly include the content, you
1822
02:29:56.735 --> 02:29:57.235
know,
1823
02:29:58.256 --> 02:29:59.556
producers as well.
1824
02:30:00.176 --> 02:30:02.596
It's it's not that many people
1825
02:30:03.199 --> 02:30:04.659
on a global level.
1826
02:30:05.359 --> 02:30:05.859
And,
1827
02:30:06.720 --> 02:30:07.220
yeah,
1828
02:30:07.920 --> 02:30:09.939
it does worry me a little bit, but
1829
02:30:11.345 --> 02:30:12.725
so long as
1830
02:30:13.345 --> 02:30:14.165
we all
1831
02:30:14.545 --> 02:30:16.165
do our work, I think,
1832
02:30:16.625 --> 02:30:18.165
you know, we are winning.
1833
02:30:19.185 --> 02:30:29.119
But I don't think we should be unaware of the risks of that kind of model that Eco just put forward. I I think it is a very possible,
1834
02:30:30.265 --> 02:30:32.445
outcome if we don't keep on pushing
1835
02:30:32.825 --> 02:30:33.645
self custody,
1836
02:30:34.425 --> 02:30:35.725
non k y c,
1837
02:30:36.185 --> 02:30:36.685
and,
1838
02:30:37.945 --> 02:30:41.600
basically, just trying to make it as difficult to,
1839
02:30:42.860 --> 02:30:44.080
analyze the Bitcoin
1840
02:30:44.620 --> 02:30:48.720
blockchain as we can. So that's, yeah, that's my my thoughts.
1841
02:30:50.185 --> 02:30:53.885
The whole value prop of Bitcoin is censorship resistance.
1842
02:30:54.265 --> 02:31:00.400
So if you have significant stake in Bitcoin and you hold large amount of Bitcoin,
1843
02:31:00.860 --> 02:31:07.505
you better fucking be for that censorship resistance. Like, if you're not fighting for that censorship resistance, you are short yourself.
1844
02:31:08.125 --> 02:31:13.585
And why would you ever live a life where you're short yourself? That is just dumb. That is just stupid,
1845
02:31:13.940 --> 02:31:14.841
and you should fucking
1846
02:31:15.460 --> 02:31:16.440
rectify that.
1847
02:31:17.221 --> 02:31:19.240
You just start fucking fighting for yourself.
1848
02:31:20.181 --> 02:31:25.215
And and and and and we need to all fight together. Like, we need to just practice personal responsibility.
1849
02:31:25.595 --> 02:31:35.630
The more people that are practicing personal responsibility and taking action to their own hand, the more centrist and persistent the whole system is, and the farther we go. This is hilarious. A bunch of people just decided
1850
02:31:36.170 --> 02:31:38.029
that that Craig Raw is Craig Wright.
1851
02:31:38.410 --> 02:31:48.345
So we have a bunch of people in here going with the CSW meme. He can go fuck himself. CSW would never be on this podcast, so you can just let that let that be known,
1852
02:31:48.740 --> 02:31:49.960
you fucking freaks.
1853
02:31:50.420 --> 02:31:52.840
I just wanna be on the record saying,
1854
02:31:53.220 --> 02:31:54.360
fuck Craig Wright.
1855
02:31:57.185 --> 02:32:05.285
A a 100%. You're on the record now. I agree with you. Craig, do you wanna be on the record as well to tell tell them to to fuck CSW?
1856
02:32:06.359 --> 02:32:07.660
Absolutely. Absolutely. I
1857
02:32:08.279 --> 02:32:10.700
distanced myself from the other Craig.
1858
02:32:14.524 --> 02:32:19.505
Before we end, like, I just I I wanna talk, Iko, I wanna talk about Greta's fury a little bit.
1859
02:32:20.444 --> 02:32:22.145
You wanna shield that to us?
1860
02:32:23.110 --> 02:32:25.530
Dude. Yeah. So Bitcoin Enemies,
1861
02:32:26.471 --> 02:32:30.330
check him out on Twitter, or I I believe his URL is bitcoinenemies.com.
1862
02:32:32.725 --> 02:32:36.425
He hosted Greco's Fury, or he organized it.
1863
02:32:36.885 --> 02:32:40.665
And it was this idea to use the stowaway transactions
1864
02:32:41.530 --> 02:32:43.550
and your pay NIMs to pass,
1865
02:32:44.010 --> 02:32:45.311
1 sat torch.
1866
02:32:46.170 --> 02:32:48.910
So there there's a couple of cool things here. 1 is
1867
02:32:49.226 --> 02:32:52.125
it's demonstrating that you can send micropayments
1868
02:32:54.105 --> 02:32:55.565
without using Lightning.
1869
02:32:56.625 --> 02:32:57.966
You know, the one
1870
02:32:58.530 --> 02:33:02.550
downside to this is that you're spending way more miner's fees than you're actually transacting.
1871
02:33:03.490 --> 02:33:13.735
But it's just a cool concept that you could send one SAP to somebody if you'd like to. And you can also do that in a way that is breaking those common,
1872
02:33:15.431 --> 02:33:17.051
what is it, common input ownership
1873
02:33:17.511 --> 02:33:19.370
common ownership input heuristics.
1874
02:33:20.870 --> 02:33:24.864
And that was kind of the whole point of Greta's Fury, is to get
1875
02:33:25.885 --> 02:33:27.104
people off the sidelines,
1876
02:33:27.484 --> 02:33:31.824
get them curious about these tools, get them to use these tools.
1877
02:33:32.641 --> 02:33:33.380
There was
1878
02:33:33.920 --> 02:33:40.101
multiple channels set up on Matrix and on Telegram for anyone who is curious about the event
1879
02:33:41.265 --> 02:33:46.725
to find a place where they could get some guidance if they had never done a stowaway transaction before.
1880
02:33:47.904 --> 02:33:48.404
So,
1881
02:33:49.030 --> 02:33:58.570
it was great to see a lot of new people trying this stuff out for the first time in a fun way that really polluted the transaction draft.
1882
02:34:05.096 --> 02:34:08.320
I mean, that that's fucking awesome. Right? Like, that that's what we want.
1883
02:34:09.120 --> 02:34:15.301
I I would just I would just advocate for people who participate to just be careful about what they're polluting it with.
1884
02:34:15.815 --> 02:34:18.475
Just do not dox yourself. Just make sure those are
1885
02:34:18.775 --> 02:34:21.035
they they ideally should be post mix
1886
02:34:21.415 --> 02:34:22.795
transactions. I mean,
1887
02:34:23.200 --> 02:34:24.420
I'd ideally ideally,
1888
02:34:24.960 --> 02:34:27.700
non KYC, but if they are KYC, at least
1889
02:34:28.560 --> 02:34:29.700
post mix KYC,
1890
02:34:31.205 --> 02:34:40.240
before you participate in any of those types of situations, but I I I 100% support it. I think it's kind of funny that you're calling it Greta's Fury,
1891
02:34:42.620 --> 02:34:47.120
and I I I can't take credit for that name. That that's all Bitcoin enemies.
1892
02:34:47.726 --> 02:34:49.085
I love Yeah. I don't know who the
1893
02:34:49.965 --> 02:34:55.425
I don't know who that guy is, but he's been fucking killing it. He's been on a fucking roll. He self hosts everything,
1894
02:34:56.120 --> 02:34:57.880
mister Bitcoin enemies, and,
1895
02:34:58.359 --> 02:35:03.899
and he's gonna be on this podcast sometime soon because anyone who self hosts is a friend of mine.
1896
02:35:05.235 --> 02:35:05.635
But,
1897
02:35:06.516 --> 02:35:16.130
he's just he's just been fucking killing it. He's been fucking killing it, and, I know he has a plural, but let's be honest, like, when names plurals, it just means there's a single dude behind it.
1898
02:35:17.229 --> 02:35:17.729
But,
1899
02:35:18.830 --> 02:35:21.410
yeah. Yeah. I it's a really cool concept.
1900
02:35:21.726 --> 02:35:28.670
I I mean, I think everyone should use Samura Wallet. I think it's a very a very useful spending wallet if you're spending on chain.
1901
02:35:29.630 --> 02:35:40.515
I think if you're not spending on chain, then you should spend lightning. So, like, you do one or the other, but if you do spend on chain, you should use you should use Semry Wallet. And if you'd wanna do CoinJoin, you should use,
1902
02:35:41.455 --> 02:35:43.074
Whirlpool is my favorite.
1903
02:35:43.854 --> 02:35:51.109
Or you can use Joan Market, but let's be honest. Like, you probably won't. And if you don't, you you you should use Samurai.
1904
02:35:53.729 --> 02:35:57.965
So, I mean, we're 2 and a half hours in. I wanna have both of you back on in the future.
1905
02:35:58.985 --> 02:36:02.766
I'm trying to talk about let let's see. Where do I wanna hit?
1906
02:36:03.520 --> 02:36:07.140
I still have you? Why I still have you? What do I wanna hit?
1907
02:36:09.040 --> 02:36:14.215
Mining. I wanna talk eco. I wanna talk about mining. I don't know if Craig has an opinion on this or not.
1908
02:36:15.155 --> 02:36:20.855
Eco is decided to take over from Diverter, who is also on civil dispatch,
1909
02:36:22.100 --> 02:36:23.560
high signal, low noise,
1910
02:36:26.500 --> 02:36:27.560
KYC free
1911
02:36:27.939 --> 02:36:29.239
Bitcoin accumulation
1912
02:36:29.779 --> 02:36:30.520
via mining.
1913
02:36:31.655 --> 02:36:35.195
Eco tried to do this and then realized it's loud as fuck,
1914
02:36:36.215 --> 02:36:39.115
and then tried to build an enclosure to make it quieter.
1915
02:36:40.680 --> 02:36:45.020
You wanna talk about that experience, like, to the freaks who are thinking about,
1916
02:36:45.479 --> 02:36:47.340
basically stacking stats via
1917
02:36:47.800 --> 02:36:49.180
KYC free mining?
1918
02:36:50.005 --> 02:36:50.726
Yeah, dude.
1919
02:36:52.806 --> 02:36:55.065
I really believe the narratives around,
1920
02:36:55.766 --> 02:36:58.825
mining is for big players. It's not profitable.
1921
02:36:59.510 --> 02:37:04.410
It's only gonna work if you can get electricity for 1 cent a kilowatt hour.
1922
02:37:05.350 --> 02:37:08.729
And it wasn't until November of last year that I read Diverter's
1923
02:37:09.155 --> 02:37:10.695
Mining for the Streets Guide.
1924
02:37:11.155 --> 02:37:16.135
And after reading that, it really turned a light bulb on, and
1925
02:37:17.470 --> 02:37:21.010
I saw potential for how that might actually work. So
1926
02:37:21.470 --> 02:37:23.410
I crunched some numbers, and
1927
02:37:23.790 --> 02:37:26.210
and I decided to give it a shot. And,
1928
02:37:27.846 --> 02:37:29.865
you know, I I documented everything
1929
02:37:30.485 --> 02:37:40.439
that my entire experience from start to finish, I documented that all in my guide. I'll be presenting that at, Bear Arms and Bitcoin in Austin, Texas in April.
1930
02:37:41.380 --> 02:37:41.880
And,
1931
02:37:43.775 --> 02:37:47.395
so, yeah, I decided to dive in and go for it, and I
1932
02:37:48.335 --> 02:37:50.035
got a, Whatsminer
1933
02:37:51.160 --> 02:37:51.660
M31s
1934
02:37:53.880 --> 02:37:58.375
Plus, fired it up, and this thing is a fucking powerhouse. It puts out
1935
02:37:59.255 --> 02:38:00.795
like 148 degrees Fahrenheit
1936
02:38:01.175 --> 02:38:01.915
in heat,
1937
02:38:02.375 --> 02:38:05.035
and it was like 85 decibels
1938
02:38:05.891 --> 02:38:07.670
when you're standing next to the thing.
1939
02:38:08.051 --> 02:38:08.551
Now,
1940
02:38:09.250 --> 02:38:09.811
I've got,
1941
02:38:11.090 --> 02:38:16.505
I'm married. I have kids. My minor was being installed in the room directly below my kids' room.
1942
02:38:16.885 --> 02:38:18.265
So I had to find
1943
02:38:19.045 --> 02:38:20.265
some way to
1944
02:38:20.830 --> 02:38:25.090
contain this powerhouse that I just introduced into our living space. And,
1945
02:38:26.910 --> 02:38:27.729
so I
1946
02:38:28.035 --> 02:38:28.775
I designed
1947
02:38:29.475 --> 02:38:31.015
an enclosure out of
1948
02:38:32.115 --> 02:38:35.735
easy materials to procure. I I got everything at Home Depot,
1949
02:38:36.529 --> 02:38:38.149
made an enclosure for it,
1950
02:38:39.250 --> 02:38:41.750
put in some infrastructure for the ventilation.
1951
02:38:42.770 --> 02:38:49.965
And, yeah, that that miner has been running nonstop for, like, the last 30 days now. I just got it fired up about a month ago.
1952
02:38:50.345 --> 02:38:50.845
And
1953
02:38:51.465 --> 02:38:52.205
we are
1954
02:38:53.030 --> 02:39:00.250
generating a constant stream of non KYC SAPS. And because the price is getting so
1955
02:39:01.875 --> 02:39:04.694
because the price is outpacing the hash rate,
1956
02:39:05.154 --> 02:39:05.814
this is
1957
02:39:06.595 --> 02:39:08.694
looking like I may have my
1958
02:39:09.400 --> 02:39:12.700
initial return on investment for procuring the hardware
1959
02:39:13.400 --> 02:39:14.300
paid off with
1960
02:39:14.601 --> 02:39:16.141
in less than 90 days.
1961
02:39:17.880 --> 02:39:18.700
So I think
1962
02:39:19.465 --> 02:39:24.364
my timing was really good because I started this when Bitcoin was trading around $18,000.
1963
02:39:26.425 --> 02:39:28.850
And since then, the price of hardware
1964
02:39:29.390 --> 02:39:31.810
has has gone up with the price of Bitcoin.
1965
02:39:33.470 --> 02:39:36.689
But even that being said, I think anyone who's interested
1966
02:39:37.165 --> 02:39:39.505
should still take a serious look at it.
1967
02:39:40.045 --> 02:39:46.385
Check out my home mining guide. I I put every detail I could possibly think of in there. There's a ton of resources.
1968
02:39:46.910 --> 02:39:56.375
There's a lot of great groups on Telegram you can look at. There's a lot of great mining calculators you can use to figure out if your unique situation's gonna pay off.
1969
02:39:56.995 --> 02:40:00.535
Blockware Solutions does hosted mining. If you can't bring
1970
02:40:00.995 --> 02:40:03.655
that kind of equipment into your living space,
1971
02:40:04.070 --> 02:40:06.250
you can still buy a piece of equipment
1972
02:40:06.710 --> 02:40:08.811
and have it hosted somewhere else
1973
02:40:11.165 --> 02:40:13.585
and get that steady stream
1974
02:40:14.205 --> 02:40:14.865
of Bitcoin.
1975
02:40:15.965 --> 02:40:16.465
So
1976
02:40:17.005 --> 02:40:19.825
I'm very happy that I decided to go down that path.
1977
02:40:20.940 --> 02:40:25.440
I know a few people have read my guide and read Diverter's guide. And
1978
02:40:26.140 --> 02:40:31.275
they've messaged me to let me know that they've started down the path as well. So, it's great to see that happening.
1979
02:40:31.975 --> 02:40:32.295
And,
1980
02:40:33.575 --> 02:40:35.755
I think it's gonna be important for
1981
02:40:36.295 --> 02:40:37.675
more people to mine
1982
02:40:38.061 --> 02:40:40.160
at home for their own safety
1983
02:40:40.700 --> 02:40:42.080
and for the decentralization
1984
02:40:42.460 --> 02:40:43.920
of the network. So
1985
02:40:45.020 --> 02:40:45.681
I mean,
1986
02:40:46.061 --> 02:40:46.880
to be clear
1987
02:40:47.975 --> 02:40:49.354
to be clear here, like,
1988
02:40:50.694 --> 02:40:53.995
I mean, if if I'm, I'm gonna start talking numbers.
1989
02:40:54.431 --> 02:40:56.851
Right? Like, I would be happy to,
1990
02:41:00.030 --> 02:41:00.530
lose,
1991
02:41:01.230 --> 02:41:02.290
you know, 20%
1992
02:41:02.671 --> 02:41:03.171
under
1993
02:41:03.865 --> 02:41:13.245
what I would buy from a KYC exchange, right, to to have non KYC Bitcoin or 40%. I would probably I mean, I'm I'm high. I would go 50%. Fuck it.
1994
02:41:13.850 --> 02:41:15.949
You know, if if if if I could
1995
02:41:16.409 --> 02:41:21.390
if I could if I could get KYC free Bitcoin for a 50% premium,
1996
02:41:22.085 --> 02:41:24.825
Hub can do that shit. That's fucking valuable as fuck.
1997
02:41:25.444 --> 02:41:27.305
Well, dude, here's the thing. Like,
1998
02:41:28.484 --> 02:41:31.705
I've been for the last month, in these current market conditions,
1999
02:41:32.070 --> 02:41:36.010
I'm generating non KYC Bitcoin at nearly 60%
2000
02:41:36.470 --> 02:41:41.450
below market price, not for a premium, but, like, 60% below market price.
2001
02:41:42.375 --> 02:41:43.354
Like, I'm generating,
2002
02:41:44.454 --> 02:41:48.635
like, $30 worth of Bitcoin a day for $10 worth of electricity.
2003
02:41:53.360 --> 02:41:54.420
I really?
2004
02:41:55.040 --> 02:41:58.261
Yeah. Yeah. I don't believe you. But if you say so, I
2005
02:41:59.205 --> 02:42:03.045
you're on you're on you're on stage. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna counter you. But
2006
02:42:03.766 --> 02:42:09.190
When I get my electric bill, I'm gonna I'm gonna post the results for my 1st month online.
2007
02:42:09.730 --> 02:42:11.671
And, yeah, I I was generating
2008
02:42:12.610 --> 02:42:13.511
non KYC
2009
02:42:14.625 --> 02:42:17.525
for nearly 60% below market price.
2010
02:42:17.905 --> 02:42:21.445
Do you know what your kilowatt per hours are by you? 12.12¢.
2011
02:42:23.540 --> 02:42:26.680
Okay. I mean I mean, that's half of New York City.
2012
02:42:27.460 --> 02:42:30.600
Yeah. New York City. Sorry. Sorry to say that.
2013
02:42:32.235 --> 02:42:33.136
Yeah. I mean,
2014
02:42:33.756 --> 02:42:35.855
that's our that's the least of our problems.
2015
02:42:36.315 --> 02:42:47.430
But even at 24¢ a kilowatt hour, you can use that brains mining calculator. You may still be profitable. It'll just take you a lot longer to get your return on your The short hardware investment.
2016
02:42:48.256 --> 02:42:48.756
Profitability
2017
02:42:49.455 --> 02:42:50.355
is a mindset.
2018
02:42:50.735 --> 02:42:52.355
People are fucking ridiculous.
2019
02:42:52.815 --> 02:43:01.040
Like, k non KYC Bitcoin is worth it. It doesn't matter what price you pay. Like, you can pay you can pay if you pay a 100% premium,
2020
02:43:02.300 --> 02:43:06.375
Bitcoin will pump past that. Like, if people think, like, a $100,000
2021
02:43:06.915 --> 02:43:08.215
Bitcoin is the top,
2022
02:43:08.675 --> 02:43:11.415
fuck you. You're short Bitcoin. You're wrong. Like
2023
02:43:12.020 --> 02:43:16.120
like like, we can argue about that now, and I'm not gonna argue about it because
2024
02:43:16.500 --> 02:43:22.274
in the future we will pass it, and then I will be right. Like, I don't need to argue with you about that.
2025
02:43:23.295 --> 02:43:28.755
But but that that's the case. Historically, it's been the case, and I think in the future, it will be the case.
2026
02:43:29.560 --> 02:43:31.420
So I I think people should just
2027
02:43:32.040 --> 02:43:38.060
not worry about that aspect, and they should just get hardware and just fucking make it happen. But the biggest issue is sound,
2028
02:43:39.605 --> 02:43:43.945
and and you've done a good you've done a bunch of good posts about
2029
02:43:44.726 --> 02:43:47.865
the enclosures to try and, like, keep that sound away. Right?
2030
02:43:48.280 --> 02:43:51.660
Yeah. Yeah. It's all in my in my guide on my blog.
2031
02:43:53.480 --> 02:43:55.101
I was gonna post that.
2032
02:43:55.575 --> 02:44:04.555
I was gonna post videos of you showing the enclosure in this directly in this episode, but I figured the people that were just listening via the podcast
2033
02:44:04.920 --> 02:44:21.675
would just, like, not appreciate that at all. And, like, I'm actually just gonna put basic sounds into you while while you can't see him hold. He he literally he made an enclosure, and then he put, like, a decibel counter in front of the enclosure and held it there for the video so people could see,
2034
02:44:23.160 --> 02:44:34.685
that he decreased the the sound. It's still annoying. Let's be honest. It's still annoying. Like, really, best case scenario is you have, like, a garage you can put it in where, like, no one ever goes into that garage that's detached
2035
02:44:35.145 --> 02:44:38.125
from your house. Like, like, it's annoying fucking sound.
2036
02:44:39.069 --> 02:44:41.170
It is. Yeah. It is annoying.
2037
02:44:42.109 --> 02:44:45.090
But it's managed, like, can be managed. Yeah.
2038
02:44:45.630 --> 02:44:51.555
And and and you're you're you're you're mining the most scarce asset that has ever existed is fucking Bitcoin.
2039
02:44:52.335 --> 02:44:52.835
Craig,
2040
02:44:54.335 --> 02:44:59.770
do you have any opinions here on mining? Do you you have any have have you been exposed to mining at all?
2041
02:45:01.750 --> 02:45:03.210
I haven't. I actually read,
2042
02:45:03.864 --> 02:45:08.265
Because article, and I I thought it was great. I really just enjoyed the build and and,
2043
02:45:08.665 --> 02:45:11.244
yeah, appreciated the work that went into it.
2044
02:45:12.220 --> 02:45:14.160
I guess I have a question. You know?
2045
02:45:14.700 --> 02:45:19.120
Do you guys think that we are in the sort of almost the golden age of mining
2046
02:45:19.465 --> 02:45:23.484
before the rewards drop, or do you think that the fee market is going to
2047
02:45:24.104 --> 02:45:25.005
fully supplant
2048
02:45:25.545 --> 02:45:26.205
the current
2049
02:45:26.745 --> 02:45:27.245
rewards?
2050
02:45:29.610 --> 02:45:34.750
I I mean I mean, I'll let Eco respond after me. I actually think the opposite. I think,
2051
02:45:37.035 --> 02:45:43.215
we're kind of in the world where warehouse mining makes the most sense, and I think we're gonna enter the world where
2052
02:45:43.675 --> 02:45:44.175
ASICs
2053
02:45:44.801 --> 02:45:52.740
last way longer than they do right now. And you will have a world where, like, people will just use their water heater. Their water heater will be,
2054
02:45:54.135 --> 02:46:03.540
a Bitcoin miner will be heating that, and they'll be getting extra Bitcoin from it. Where their electric heater will be getting extra Bitcoin from it, and they'll have all these different mechanisms
2055
02:46:04.240 --> 02:46:06.420
where they're like, it'll it'll redistribute,
2056
02:46:07.200 --> 02:46:12.395
where you'll have discounts of scale, where where this idea that if the ASIC lasts long enough,
2057
02:46:13.655 --> 02:46:18.875
really the the the argument is can you secure that waste energy,
2058
02:46:19.380 --> 02:46:27.399
and that waste energy is the heat that gets released. Can that heat be reused? And if that heat can be reused, then all of a sudden you're talking
2059
02:46:28.115 --> 02:46:30.295
major diseconomies of scale. You're talking
2060
02:46:30.675 --> 02:46:31.175
houses,
2061
02:46:31.955 --> 02:46:33.015
buildings, apartments,
2062
02:46:34.205 --> 02:46:34.705
offices.
2063
02:46:35.131 --> 02:46:38.830
They're all gonna have Bitcoin miners that are also heating shit,
2064
02:46:39.370 --> 02:46:43.070
and and no one can compete with that, and it'll distribute out.
2065
02:46:45.734 --> 02:46:47.755
Yeah. You know, if we look at
2066
02:46:48.215 --> 02:46:48.875
at previous
2067
02:46:49.335 --> 02:46:51.035
epochs in in Bitcoin,
2068
02:46:51.790 --> 02:47:02.355
you know, it went from 50 to 25, and it keeps getting cut in half. But mining continues to make sense in every epoch. And I think that's not going to change going forward. I think it'll
2069
02:47:02.735 --> 02:47:04.035
continue to make sense.
2070
02:47:06.870 --> 02:47:14.570
I don't know if that's because the fees go up or if it's just because the value of Bitcoin is so much that it offsets the electrical costs,
2071
02:47:15.005 --> 02:47:16.785
and and it's still worth it. But
2072
02:47:17.725 --> 02:47:18.705
I think, somehow,
2073
02:47:20.324 --> 02:47:22.625
it it it'll find a way, and and
2074
02:47:23.150 --> 02:47:25.891
mining will continue to make sense far into the future.
2075
02:47:28.351 --> 02:47:35.835
Do you think hash rate just keeps going up, or do you think we we level off, or do we drop at some point? I'm curious.
2076
02:47:36.455 --> 02:47:40.234
Yeah. You know, like Matt was saying, if if you got
2077
02:47:40.601 --> 02:47:42.301
every apartment building out there
2078
02:47:42.841 --> 02:47:45.420
using ASICs to run the hot water,
2079
02:47:46.120 --> 02:47:47.101
and, yeah, I think
2080
02:47:47.480 --> 02:47:49.020
hash rate is going to continue
2081
02:47:49.705 --> 02:47:51.085
to go up, as well.
2082
02:47:52.825 --> 02:47:55.965
The major problem we're having right now, I think, is that
2083
02:47:57.080 --> 02:47:58.700
you don't have that many great
2084
02:47:59.080 --> 02:47:59.580
ASIC
2085
02:48:00.040 --> 02:48:00.540
manufacturers.
2086
02:48:01.880 --> 02:48:04.780
And I think that's kind of creating a bottleneck.
2087
02:48:06.495 --> 02:48:08.335
So you've got What's Minor or,
2088
02:48:08.814 --> 02:48:09.314
BTC.
2089
02:48:11.055 --> 02:48:12.435
What's the company's name?
2090
02:48:14.010 --> 02:48:14.510
MicroBT
2091
02:48:15.130 --> 02:48:17.150
is the company behind the What's Minor.
2092
02:48:17.690 --> 02:48:19.150
And then you've got Bitmain.
2093
02:48:21.145 --> 02:48:25.405
And there's not a whole there's not a whole lot of other big fish out there. So,
2094
02:48:27.226 --> 02:48:28.930
yeah, I think the hatchery will
2095
02:48:39.596 --> 02:48:45.495
I think the price will continue to outpace it, and the next few years are gonna be very good years for mining Bitcoin.
2096
02:48:49.620 --> 02:48:54.740
Yeah. I mean, I I mean, it doesn't matter. You mine the Bitcoin, you buy the Bitcoin. Like, we're gonna fucking
2097
02:48:55.375 --> 02:48:58.435
all of us are gonna be winners. It's gonna be very good.
2098
02:49:00.095 --> 02:49:04.115
Don't let these short price movements fucking dictate any kind of attitude
2099
02:49:07.550 --> 02:49:11.490
here. We're we continue to win, guys. We continue to win.
2100
02:49:12.189 --> 02:49:14.370
All The Citadel's are receiving this.
2101
02:49:15.555 --> 02:49:20.375
They think they have us. They think they have us with this bullshit price decrease,
2102
02:49:21.690 --> 02:49:23.070
but we sit at $48,000
2103
02:49:24.091 --> 02:49:25.790
Bitcoin. Like, fuck you.
2104
02:49:26.570 --> 02:49:28.190
Like, we we will win.
2105
02:49:29.585 --> 02:49:33.285
To all the freaks here on live chat, thank you for joining us.
2106
02:49:33.665 --> 02:49:35.045
This is why we Bitcoin.
2107
02:49:35.745 --> 02:49:36.645
Bitcoin Tuesdays
2108
02:49:37.025 --> 02:49:38.165
are what it's about.
2109
02:49:39.011 --> 02:49:41.750
To Craig Raw and Econa Alchemist,
2110
02:49:42.130 --> 02:49:49.825
thank you for joining us. I mean, you guys are gonna come back in future. I I would love to have you guys in the future. We're gonna have so many good conversations.
2111
02:49:50.845 --> 02:49:51.345
Craig,
2112
02:49:51.885 --> 02:49:55.745
we we got to we got to take your podcast, virginity. I appreciate that.
2113
02:49:56.380 --> 02:49:57.280
That's at
2114
02:49:57.740 --> 02:49:58.240
a@craigraw,
2115
02:50:01.740 --> 02:50:02.240
craigraw,
2116
02:50:04.315 --> 02:50:05.136
and Econalchemist
2117
02:50:05.675 --> 02:50:06.175
is
2118
02:50:06.715 --> 02:50:07.215
ec0nolchemist.
2119
02:50:13.355 --> 02:50:13.855
Go
2120
02:50:14.380 --> 02:50:15.120
follow them.
2121
02:50:16.060 --> 02:50:22.800
Make that fucking happen. Go follow us through the dispatch. Like and subscribe, all that, all the bullshit. I don't fucking do that shit.
2122
02:50:24.175 --> 02:50:26.034
And let's stay humble in Stack Sats.
2123
02:50:26.814 --> 02:50:28.914
Craig, do you have any last comments?
2124
02:50:30.810 --> 02:50:32.430
Yeah. I just wanna give a
2125
02:50:32.890 --> 02:50:33.950
shout out to,
2126
02:50:34.890 --> 02:50:38.670
Elle Matan, who's doing her first PR review club,
2127
02:50:39.386 --> 02:50:41.806
in, about 12 hours or so.
2128
02:50:42.745 --> 02:50:43.945
Really great to see,
2129
02:50:44.425 --> 02:50:45.965
young new people coming into
2130
02:50:46.665 --> 02:50:47.165
the
2131
02:50:47.990 --> 02:50:48.730
space. And,
2132
02:50:49.350 --> 02:50:50.950
yeah, I'm just I'm keen,
2133
02:50:51.750 --> 02:50:53.530
to see how that one goes.
2134
02:50:55.350 --> 02:50:55.850
Iko,
2135
02:50:56.150 --> 02:50:56.890
hit us.
2136
02:51:01.346 --> 02:51:10.420
If you're if you're out there and you're trying to get involved with the Bitcoin space and you're not sure what kind of project to work on, maybe you're not a developer,
2137
02:51:11.200 --> 02:51:12.500
maybe you're not a coder,
2138
02:51:14.675 --> 02:51:18.854
We need people focusing on more non KYC onramps.
2139
02:51:19.555 --> 02:51:23.490
And if you wanna do something that's worthwhile in Bitcoin,
2140
02:51:24.591 --> 02:51:27.971
I think that area needs a lot of work, and it needs a lot of support.
2141
02:51:28.774 --> 02:51:29.254
And,
2142
02:51:29.734 --> 02:51:31.435
and I think it would be very
2143
02:51:31.814 --> 02:51:32.314
fruitful
2144
02:51:33.415 --> 02:51:37.515
of anyone out there who wants to get involved in this space to start thinking about
2145
02:51:38.390 --> 02:51:41.050
how they can provide non KYC on ramps.
2146
02:51:42.870 --> 02:51:43.530
A 100%,
2147
02:51:44.150 --> 02:51:47.370
total freaks out there. I have a mount but mount Gox
2148
02:51:47.726 --> 02:51:50.466
stream tomorrow about the anniversary of mount Gox.
2149
02:51:50.926 --> 02:51:55.506
It's gonna be all about self custody. I'd appreciate your support over there for that.
2150
02:51:56.200 --> 02:51:58.859
Retweets, likes, all that shit is super valuable.
2151
02:51:59.800 --> 02:52:05.336
And just, like, participation, like, just come into the comments. Let's have a fucking fun time with it. We're gonna
2152
02:52:06.035 --> 02:52:12.136
like, let let's let's show the noobs why self custody is important. I'm trying to fucking do a show over there. That's the whole point
2153
02:52:12.700 --> 02:52:21.040
of of being an adviser at Bitcoin Magazine. The second whole point of being an adviser at Bitcoin Magazine is I'm gonna throw a fucking insane 200 k party
2154
02:52:21.476 --> 02:52:23.096
for all those involved
2155
02:52:23.636 --> 02:52:26.535
in Miami in June, June 4th through 5th.
2156
02:52:27.315 --> 02:52:28.056
The only
2157
02:52:28.516 --> 02:52:29.335
the only,
2158
02:52:30.600 --> 02:52:43.885
fucking discount code that will give you a 21% discount is humble, all caps, and that's my discount code. I've fucking negotiated that for you mother fuckers. I'm not making any money off of that. That's the only reason I'm fine with the ref link.
2159
02:52:44.265 --> 02:52:49.690
I I disagree with all ref links, but as long as all the money goes to you guys, I'm fucking fine with it.
2160
02:52:50.891 --> 02:52:52.830
Catan and Ministry of Nodes,
2161
02:52:53.610 --> 02:52:56.750
if if you need support, you should go to ministry of nodes.com.
2162
02:52:58.615 --> 02:52:59.915
They will give you support.
2163
02:53:00.375 --> 02:53:13.670
I I I they are not sponsoring it. They're my boys. Okay? In RHR last week, I said 60 to $70. I fucking sold them short. It's a value to value model. If you guys do not pay them more than a $150,
2164
02:53:14.715 --> 02:53:21.455
they will they're fucking gonna stop the service. Like, you gotta make that happen. Like, show them some love. Honestly, 1,000,000 sats,
2165
02:53:22.051 --> 02:53:28.950
bare minimum. That's how it should be. A 1,000,000 sats, you give them less than a 1,000,000 sats, you don't love them. Make that happen. Give them some love.
2166
02:53:29.675 --> 02:53:34.016
I do really feel bad about short selling them last week on that. So,
2167
02:53:34.476 --> 02:53:38.096
like, please make sure that happens. Like, be be good about that.
2168
02:53:38.500 --> 02:53:42.439
And I will see you tomorrow for the Mt. Gox stream. I will see you Thursday
2169
02:53:43.060 --> 02:53:47.560
for RHR. It's gonna be fucking lit as fuck. I love all of you freaks.
2170
02:53:47.915 --> 02:53:49.535
Stay humble, and stack sides.
2171
02:53:51.115 --> 02:53:52.095
Thank you, Matt.
2172
02:53:53.035 --> 02:53:53.854
Cheers, Matt.
2173
02:54:30.320 --> 02:54:31.220
Except for
2174
02:54:31.720 --> 02:54:32.220
you.
2175
02:54:32.720 --> 02:54:36.420
Don't ever let anyone step all over you.
2176
02:54:37.601 --> 02:54:39.380
Just open your heart
2177
02:56:36.975 --> 02:56:38.915
Break free from the chains.
2178
02:56:41.055 --> 02:56:48.739
Yeah. I know that there is pain, but just hold on for one more day and you break, break, break from the chain.
2179
02:56:50.960 --> 02:56:52.515
Someday, some fight is gonna
2180
02:57:47.225 --> 02:57:50.444
Love you freaks. Stay humble. Stack stats.
2181
02:57:50.760 --> 02:57:51.580
I'll see you
2182
02:57:52.040 --> 02:57:53.899
tomorrow and Thursday for our HR.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:18 PM
Duration: 10678.831
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:01.220
2
00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:05.779
that that the points that you made that I went, wow.
3
00:00:06.319 --> 00:00:09.985
I went wow when I read it because I I hadn't really considered it. So
4
00:00:10.464 --> 00:00:11.445
there's a 100,000,000
5
00:00:11.985 --> 00:00:12.485
holders
6
00:00:13.264 --> 00:00:15.445
now. You figure it won't be long
7
00:00:15.824 --> 00:00:18.645
theoretically until there's a 1000000000 holders, and
8
00:00:19.779 --> 00:00:30.744
the global nature of who they would be is what hit me because everybody's gonna have a phone, eventually. It doesn't matter where you are. You're gonna have a phone, probably. You can afford that in every country of the world, most people.
9
00:00:31.205 --> 00:00:32.985
So you could have people saving
10
00:00:33.364 --> 00:00:39.330
where they had no other way to save. You could have people in countries where the inflation rate is a 1000%
11
00:00:39.870 --> 00:00:40.850
on their currencies,
12
00:00:41.470 --> 00:00:42.850
and they could be saving
13
00:00:43.355 --> 00:00:47.455
on their phone using Bitcoin, and there could be a 1000000000 holders hodlers,
14
00:00:47.995 --> 00:00:53.660
at some point. I I I hadn't even considered how powerful that is for people that don't have access to that now.
15
00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:58.940
16
00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:00.620
progressive technology.
17
00:01:01.275 --> 00:01:11.055
We're gonna see a a day when 7 to 8000000000 people have a bar of digital gold on their phone and they're using it to store their life savings with it.
18
00:01:11.390 --> 00:01:13.810
Google took 22 years to become a $1,000,000,000,000
19
00:01:14.190 --> 00:01:20.210
network. Now Amazon took 24 years. Apple took 42 years. Microsoft took 44 years.
20
00:01:20.625 --> 00:01:21.925
Bitcoin became a $1,000,000,000,000
21
00:01:22.785 --> 00:01:23.845
digital monetary
22
00:01:24.145 --> 00:01:25.685
network in 12 years.
23
00:01:26.305 --> 00:01:28.330
And so the world needs this
24
00:01:28.810 --> 00:01:32.590
thing and and, I think you can expect that we'll have a 1000000000 people
25
00:01:33.050 --> 00:01:34.350
storing their value,
26
00:01:34.650 --> 00:01:44.085
in essence, a savings account on a mobile device within 5 years, and they're gonna wanna use something like Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the dominant digital monetary network.
27
00:02:29.485 --> 00:02:30.705
28
00:02:31.325 --> 00:02:36.305
It's Matt O'Dell here for another episode of Citadel Dispatch. This is episode 10,
29
00:02:37.830 --> 00:02:39.450
on the backs of a
30
00:02:40.070 --> 00:02:41.690
bloody day in the markets,
31
00:02:42.150 --> 00:02:44.490
with Bitcoin price down double digits.
32
00:02:46.005 --> 00:02:50.185
Well, we're here to talk about more than just price on Citadel dispatch.
33
00:02:50.565 --> 00:02:53.305
I'm here with Craig Raw and econoalchemist,
34
00:02:54.390 --> 00:02:57.930
and we're gonna be talking about Bitcoin self custody, security, and privacy.
35
00:02:58.709 --> 00:03:02.650
It's come to my attention that a lot of people in the new class of Bitcoiners
36
00:03:04.715 --> 00:03:07.855
do not realize the gravity of of
37
00:03:09.435 --> 00:03:12.975
of of the custodial risk that they face when they use these custodial products.
38
00:03:13.810 --> 00:03:17.030
I don't think that established Bitcoiners realize,
39
00:03:17.970 --> 00:03:21.269
how much occasion needs to be placed, in terms of
40
00:03:21.925 --> 00:03:26.665
talking about why self custody is important and making it easier for people to use self custody
41
00:03:26.965 --> 00:03:29.785
and helping with that education effort as well.
42
00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:34.660
Tomorrow, I will be doing a livestream with Pete Rizzo,
43
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.540
with with Bitcoin Magazine,
44
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.240
to
45
00:03:39.105 --> 00:03:48.645
for the anniversary of Mt. Gox. 7 years ago, Mt. Gox went down, and a lot of people lost a lot of Bitcoin that is worth a lot more today than it was back then,
46
00:03:49.010 --> 00:03:50.630
that probably wished that they,
47
00:03:50.930 --> 00:03:54.310
you know, practice self custody at the time. So definitely go and check that out.
48
00:03:55.730 --> 00:03:58.364
As for our guests here today, by the way,
49
00:03:58.825 --> 00:04:01.724
shout out to all the freaks that are joining us here live in the chat.
50
00:04:02.825 --> 00:04:08.019
I love our Bitcoin Tuesdays together, so cheers to you. Our guests here today are Craig Rauh.
51
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.260
Craig Rauh is the lead maintainer of Sparrow Wallet,
52
00:04:13.645 --> 00:04:16.145
a wallet that frankly came out of nowhere,
53
00:04:16.605 --> 00:04:19.185
and blew me away and others away. I I
54
00:04:19.645 --> 00:04:23.990
I we haven't really heard him much on any of the podcast. I don't think he's ever been on the podcast.
55
00:04:24.849 --> 00:04:26.949
So I'm pretty excited to have this conversation.
56
00:04:28.210 --> 00:04:30.389
And we're also joined by Econo Alchemist,
57
00:04:30.770 --> 00:04:31.669
who is
58
00:04:33.475 --> 00:04:36.055
more focused on content and guides
59
00:04:36.595 --> 00:04:40.135
and blowing things up and lighting things on fire. And
60
00:04:40.690 --> 00:04:44.550
his videos are just really exciting. And he focuses a lot on no KYC,
61
00:04:46.050 --> 00:04:47.510
running at home for no KYC.
62
00:04:48.705 --> 00:04:53.285
And I just think we're gonna have a really great conversation here. So with that said,
63
00:04:55.265 --> 00:04:57.605
let's start with you, Craig. Did I miss anything?
64
00:04:59.230 --> 00:05:01.410
65
00:05:01.870 --> 00:05:03.410
As you say, this is,
66
00:05:03.710 --> 00:05:05.170
my first part. So,
67
00:05:05.710 --> 00:05:06.210
yeah,
68
00:05:07.014 --> 00:05:09.115
really keen to get into it and
69
00:05:09.655 --> 00:05:10.474
talk Bitcoin.
70
00:05:14.389 --> 00:05:15.849
71
00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:18.409
72
00:05:18.710 --> 00:05:22.169
It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on.
73
00:05:22.765 --> 00:05:23.265
And
74
00:05:23.805 --> 00:05:27.185
like you, I was also blown away the first time I used Spare Wallet.
75
00:05:28.285 --> 00:05:31.185
So I'm very excited to be having this discussion.
76
00:05:32.050 --> 00:05:32.550
And,
77
00:05:33.970 --> 00:05:34.470
yeah,
78
00:05:34.930 --> 00:05:36.069
let's dive in.
79
00:05:37.330 --> 00:05:38.150
80
00:05:40.005 --> 00:05:41.285
So, I mean, I like to just
81
00:05:42.085 --> 00:05:44.185
let's just go right off the bat. You know?
82
00:05:44.485 --> 00:05:51.120
First of all, all the freaks in the comments, you know the deal. We got the evil empire price on top. That's a Coinbase pro price.
83
00:05:52.139 --> 00:05:54.000
Underneath, we have the bisque price.
84
00:05:54.435 --> 00:05:58.855
I forgot to mention for the for the listeners who are coming into the podcast feed,
85
00:05:59.555 --> 00:06:04.700
that was in the beginning, that was CNBC. That was our boy Joe Kern talking to Michael Saylor of MicroStrategy,
86
00:06:06.200 --> 00:06:07.100
about Bitcoin,
87
00:06:08.280 --> 00:06:11.815
as as the price was dumping. So you you see the price dump there.
88
00:06:12.135 --> 00:06:14.475
He has as much conviction as he always has,
89
00:06:14.935 --> 00:06:16.875
which is way more than most people.
90
00:06:18.375 --> 00:06:18.875
And,
91
00:06:19.575 --> 00:06:24.410
so yeah. So let's just let's just jump in let's just jump into this. Sparrow Wallet,
92
00:06:25.910 --> 00:06:28.410
well, you know, what was the inspiration for Sparrow?
93
00:06:29.425 --> 00:06:32.565
I feel like you kinda just came out of nowhere, Craig, and,
94
00:06:33.985 --> 00:06:35.605
you know, give us give
95
00:06:36.050 --> 00:06:37.110
a why Sparrow,
96
00:06:37.570 --> 00:06:39.830
and why should people consider using it?
97
00:06:41.170 --> 00:06:42.390
98
00:06:43.194 --> 00:06:45.275
you know, I think that there have been a lot of,
99
00:06:45.595 --> 00:06:46.815
sort of iterations
100
00:06:47.354 --> 00:06:47.854
in
101
00:06:48.235 --> 00:06:50.655
the the Bitcoin world in terms of
102
00:06:51.220 --> 00:07:01.745
securing and storing your Bitcoin, your stash. And, you know, I think if if we go back, we sort of it goes back a long way, but I'm just gonna start with, you know, the first hardware wallets
103
00:07:02.525 --> 00:07:05.025
Trezor coming out. I mean, clearly, that was
104
00:07:05.805 --> 00:07:14.930
something that has changed, you know, the way that we see see things, and, you know, we've had many great hardware wallets since. Then after that, I think, you know, we've got
105
00:07:15.790 --> 00:07:25.995
multisig, which, again, just, you know, really makes things so much more secure, and you can really just do you know, you you have to worry about a lot lot less.
106
00:07:26.375 --> 00:07:27.595
And then sort of towards
107
00:07:28.130 --> 00:07:28.950
the end of,
108
00:07:30.450 --> 00:07:35.430
you know, I'm not sure if it was about a year a year ago, I was just listening to Michael Flaxman
109
00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:39.725
on the Stefan Levera part, and he was talking about multi vendor,
110
00:07:40.665 --> 00:07:41.165
multi
111
00:07:41.545 --> 00:07:46.365
seg, and for me, that really just seemed like almost the next step step up. So
112
00:07:47.060 --> 00:07:49.480
I was quite inspired to give it a go,
113
00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:54.280
and the only real tool we had at the time was to use Electrum,
114
00:07:54.985 --> 00:07:58.604
and it wasn't easy. It was, you know, it was a real
115
00:07:58.985 --> 00:08:02.365
difficult journey, and I had to write some code to do it, and it was just,
116
00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.940
the whole thing just left me feeling pretty uncertain about,
117
00:08:08.280 --> 00:08:14.285
being able to reproduce this or explain this to other people, and I just felt that there was a gap in the market for that.
118
00:08:15.465 --> 00:08:20.045
So, you know, it it was it was really just driven by the idea of, you know, having
119
00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:27.780
done this for myself, and kind of wanting to make it easier for others, and frankly, making it wanting to make it easier for myself to do
120
00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:30.005
in future, and less kind of
121
00:08:30.965 --> 00:08:36.505
prone to, you know, making mistakes because I've typed some something wrong on the command line or whatever.
122
00:08:37.285 --> 00:08:38.905
So that's kind of where I began.
123
00:08:39.285 --> 00:08:43.290
It was around a year a year ago that I began to write,
124
00:08:43.670 --> 00:08:44.170
and,
125
00:08:44.870 --> 00:08:46.890
yeah, it's just been a a great
126
00:08:47.455 --> 00:08:51.075
journey. You know, I've been wanting to get into the Bitcoin world for,
127
00:08:52.255 --> 00:08:54.320
you know, 7, 8 years years now.
128
00:08:54.800 --> 00:09:02.100
Just being, you know, like most of the freaks, just, you know, consuming Bitcoin content every day, just living in that world,
129
00:09:02.745 --> 00:09:11.240
you know, with a day day job that, you know, takes up my time, but just really just wanting to spend more time on it. And I finally got the chance to do that,
130
00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:19.080
and it was just a, yeah, just a great journey to kind of go into it and fully get into all of the concepts and
131
00:09:19.595 --> 00:09:21.615
and and kind of make make it happen.
132
00:09:21.995 --> 00:09:22.495
So,
133
00:09:23.355 --> 00:09:24.415
yeah, it's it's
134
00:09:24.875 --> 00:09:26.495
largely about trying to
135
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:27.460
provide,
136
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:30.980
freaks with the ability to
137
00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:31.860
really
138
00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:32.740
self
139
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:43.885
store their stash, you know, to really be sovereign over it. That's what Spiro's mission is, and that's what I'm keen to keep going down the road road on. So
140
00:09:44.839 --> 00:09:45.740
that's yeah.
141
00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:48.620
142
00:09:49.079 --> 00:09:52.940
as a Bitcoiner, as a public Bitcoiner focused on education,
143
00:09:53.774 --> 00:09:59.074
We've talked a lot about multisig. We I talk a lot about self custody, trying to improve your custody. And
144
00:09:59.375 --> 00:10:01.134
a lot of us, I feel like, hit the same
145
00:10:01.770 --> 00:10:09.230
we a lot of us hit the same wall about and I wouldn't be surprised if Econo Alchemist is the same with him. We hit the same wall, like, 2 years ago.
146
00:10:09.895 --> 00:10:12.235
I was like, Electrum's the best thing there is
147
00:10:12.695 --> 00:10:13.195
available.
148
00:10:14.215 --> 00:10:15.915
It's too complicated to use.
149
00:10:16.455 --> 00:10:20.480
It requires you to, you know, set up an Electrum personal server,
150
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:23.939
and and if you wanna use your own node with it,
151
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:33.825
and that is too complicated for people to use. And not and I don't wanna say too complicated in, like, the no corner, like or, like, the Peter McCormick sense or something like that, but just in in the sense that
152
00:10:34.170 --> 00:10:39.310
you wanna reduce you wanna reduce the friction of best practices as much as possible. Like, you you can
153
00:10:39.690 --> 00:10:48.204
personal responsibility will always be the more difficult option. You know, people that want no responsibility whatsoever, like, yeah, that'll always be more convenient, that'll always be easier,
154
00:10:48.904 --> 00:10:52.285
but we can make it so that best practices with personal responsibility
155
00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:54.740
is as frictionless
156
00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:56.340
as possible,
157
00:10:57.040 --> 00:10:58.340
as easy as possible.
158
00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:02.260
And so I feel like we a bunch of us all hit the same point.
159
00:11:03.515 --> 00:11:11.695
Since then, there's been a couple big ones that have have released. I I would say the 3 big ones, at least in the desktop world,
160
00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:13.140
were,
161
00:11:14.660 --> 00:11:15.160
Caravan
162
00:11:15.860 --> 00:11:16.920
and then Spectre,
163
00:11:17.620 --> 00:11:20.600
Sparrow with you. And then on the in the mobile world, BlueWallet,
164
00:11:22.135 --> 00:11:24.154
you know, has come, like, a really far away.
165
00:11:24.615 --> 00:11:29.675
And I feel like they all try to address the same issue where you have this super powerful Electrum,
166
00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:34.080
but it's just really complicated for individuals to use. Now Spectre
167
00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:41.464
has gotten a lot of love, and I've especially for me as well, very you know, I I use Spectre. I recommend Spectre.
168
00:11:42.245 --> 00:11:45.385
Spectre decided, you know, we're gonna completely take away
169
00:11:46.325 --> 00:11:46.825
the
170
00:11:47.589 --> 00:11:58.475
the need for an Electrum personal server. So we we we completely remove Electrum for the equation. You run Bitcoin Core either locally or on a remote machine, and then you connect directly to Bitcoin Core,
171
00:11:58.935 --> 00:12:03.035
through the Spectre interface. And Spectre kinda, like, hides a lot of things from you. It's almost,
172
00:12:04.140 --> 00:12:06.800
you know, to make it user friendly. This is, like, clean,
173
00:12:08.140 --> 00:12:09.839
like, new age type of interface.
174
00:12:10.885 --> 00:12:11.625
With Sparrow,
175
00:12:13.445 --> 00:12:19.865
you kinda did 2 things. First of all, you can still use it as just an Electrum front end with the typical Electrum back ends.
176
00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:24.170
You recently added the support for core, but it's almost like a different
177
00:12:25.430 --> 00:12:32.235
it it's it's it's super performant. It has all of these, you know, power user features,
178
00:12:32.935 --> 00:12:39.959
but it it kinda and it has a beautiful interface. Like, it looks gorgeous. I put it up on the screen. Like, look at this thing. It it looks gorgeous,
179
00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:41.080
but
180
00:12:41.540 --> 00:12:42.520
you can't say
181
00:12:43.060 --> 00:12:47.560
it's it's not it expects a lot of its user. It expect more of its user than the Spectre.
182
00:12:48.185 --> 00:12:51.325
Would you what do you think of that of of that breakdown?
183
00:12:52.825 --> 00:12:55.645
184
00:12:56.345 --> 00:12:57.405
when you had
185
00:12:59.000 --> 00:12:59.500
MBK,
186
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:08.145
Rodolfo on, 2 weeks back, he said something which I really agree with. He said, you know, you don't get to avoid
187
00:13:08.765 --> 00:13:12.705
the need to understand things. You know, you you you don't, as a Bitcoiner,
188
00:13:13.085 --> 00:13:15.540
take self custody and self responsibility
189
00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:18.100
over your wealth, and then just
190
00:13:18.640 --> 00:13:19.620
kind of somehow
191
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:20.580
expect
192
00:13:21.185 --> 00:13:27.285
to have it all work out fine if you don't put any effort in. And I think that that's something that I really believe believe in.
193
00:13:28.650 --> 00:13:36.030
You know, I I understand that that might not be a use that's held by everyone, but I kind of want Sparrow to
194
00:13:36.705 --> 00:13:40.085
be the the application for those people who really
195
00:13:40.545 --> 00:13:48.080
who really want and need to know what is going on under the hood. So, you know, let's let's go all the way to the the fact that I show by default
196
00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:53.040
the the actual hex code of the transaction that you're about to send out.
197
00:13:53.365 --> 00:13:55.845
You know, why did I do that? Well, it's because
198
00:13:56.725 --> 00:13:59.365
let's imagine, for example, that you are,
199
00:14:00.850 --> 00:14:05.590
looking after your family's wealth, and you've got it sitting in 1 or 2 or 3 UTXOs,
200
00:14:06.050 --> 00:14:07.270
and you need to,
201
00:14:08.290 --> 00:14:09.270
let's say that
202
00:14:10.175 --> 00:14:19.360
Taproot is activated, and you want to sweep those UTXOs into your brand new Taproot wallet to take advantage of all the great new features that's coming.
203
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.180
Now when you have to send that
204
00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:25.060
transaction with your family's wealth in it,
205
00:14:26.160 --> 00:15:02.840
that's a high stress moment for any Bitcoin coin coin. And and for me, that was really what I was kind of being driven by was was how do I reduce that high stress? How do I take the stress out of that? And you can, if you want to, just put your trust in the wallet and say, you know what? I think this wallet has done me well thus far, and I'm just gonna click the button. But for me, that wasn't enough. And, I kind of wanted to build a wallet that allows people who who are paranoid, who are just like, I have to make sure that this goes goes right because there is no backup if I make a mistake. And that's that's the kind of user that
206
00:15:03.395 --> 00:15:05.095
Sparrow is really designed for.
207
00:15:09.395 --> 00:15:11.175
208
00:15:12.035 --> 00:15:15.230
209
00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:19.709
210
00:15:20.185 --> 00:15:25.644
I had a lot of trouble with that. I've used it a little bit for doing some PSBT signing
211
00:15:26.264 --> 00:15:30.090
or generating the PSBT and then signing with my cold card, but,
212
00:15:30.650 --> 00:15:33.070
I've never implemented it successfully.
213
00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:38.990
So when I had the chance to set Sparrow up with my
214
00:15:40.145 --> 00:15:40.645
Raspberry
215
00:15:41.105 --> 00:15:42.725
Pi running Bitcoin Core,
216
00:15:43.345 --> 00:15:47.045
yeah, dude, it it just worked, and it and it was really beautifully
217
00:15:47.585 --> 00:15:48.085
done.
218
00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:49.029
And,
219
00:15:51.089 --> 00:15:54.870
to what Craig was just saying about that high stress moment, like,
220
00:15:55.715 --> 00:16:02.855
yeah. Like, if if I'm sending a lot of value with Bitcoin, like, I pour over every detail
221
00:16:03.510 --> 00:16:08.170
multiple times, and it takes me, like, an hour and a half to do a single transaction
222
00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:10.835
just because I know if I fuck it up,
223
00:16:11.395 --> 00:16:17.895
that's it. And that and that's part of that radical responsibility you gotta take when you're responsible for
224
00:16:18.490 --> 00:16:19.710
your wealth like that.
225
00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:22.990
And, so I I really appreciate developers
226
00:16:23.850 --> 00:16:24.970
like Craig, who,
227
00:16:25.690 --> 00:16:27.790
who who think about that and
228
00:16:28.185 --> 00:16:29.885
and implement those
229
00:16:30.584 --> 00:16:32.205
improvements for the end user.
230
00:16:35.520 --> 00:16:41.540
And and one other thing I wanted to say too is that, I I think a lot of great projects come up because
231
00:16:42.135 --> 00:16:45.115
the developers are trying to build the tools that they wanna use.
232
00:16:45.655 --> 00:16:55.480
Samura Wallet's a good example. And, you know, like you were saying, Craig, with Sparrow Wallet, I just I think some of the best tools we've seen have come from people who are just making something that they wanted.
233
00:17:03.435 --> 00:17:05.455
234
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:10.440
staying in a cabin in the woods, and my Internet connection has a lot of latency.
235
00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:11.800
So I apologize
236
00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:15.720
ahead of time if I talk over anyone or if they talk over me.
237
00:17:16.945 --> 00:17:19.765
We needed to get the they must go on, so here we are.
238
00:17:20.625 --> 00:17:23.845
So, yeah, I mean, I I a 100% agree, Iko. Like, I think,
239
00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:34.409
you know, especially with open source software, what you do see is you see, you know, the best software is the one that's being built by people who wanna use it themselves.
240
00:17:34.795 --> 00:17:36.335
It's the ultimate incentive.
241
00:17:36.635 --> 00:17:38.975
I wanna make something really clear to the freaks.
242
00:17:39.595 --> 00:17:42.015
It's really important that we have multiple
243
00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:45.559
projects that are there's that are good projects,
244
00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:49.640
that are well run projects that that are good
245
00:17:51.015 --> 00:17:51.755
be because
246
00:17:52.615 --> 00:17:57.515
be if if we have multiple, it allows you to verify against each other.
247
00:17:58.055 --> 00:17:59.195
If you do not,
248
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.260
have the wherewithal to actually
249
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.180
verify the code base.
250
00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:07.540
So a perfect example is if you're running a Spectre stack
251
00:18:09.285 --> 00:18:13.785
or an Electrum stack, and then you also verify on a separate computer that is,
252
00:18:14.725 --> 00:18:15.705
running Sparrow.
253
00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:22.000
And, also, just in general, it's just good to peep for people to have options. I want I want people to have as many options as possible.
254
00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:24.720
So I just wanna go back a little bit.
255
00:18:25.945 --> 00:18:29.325
We can get, like, deeper into the Sparrow conversation. I think we should.
256
00:18:29.945 --> 00:18:32.445
I also wanna talk a lot about Samurai because,
257
00:18:33.710 --> 00:18:35.970
Iko just released a bunch of guides about
258
00:18:36.350 --> 00:18:38.130
Samurai's collaborative spends.
259
00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:40.289
But before we do that,
260
00:18:42.465 --> 00:18:50.725
I you know? So, Craig, like, you really you really impressed me. Like, I feel like you're a very underappreciated Bitcoiner. I just wanted to say I appreciate you.
261
00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:53.980
Thank you for Sparrow Wallet. It caught me off guard,
262
00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:58.620
and I pay a fucking ton ton of attention in the space,
263
00:18:59.135 --> 00:19:00.674
and it just literally just
264
00:19:01.375 --> 00:19:04.995
it just completely blindsided me in, like, the best way possible.
265
00:19:05.695 --> 00:19:06.995
So cheers to that.
266
00:19:07.695 --> 00:19:08.434
I want,
267
00:19:09.169 --> 00:19:12.950
and I think you have very interesting takes. So I I I wanna hear
268
00:19:13.409 --> 00:19:18.070
for the freaks, especially the new freaks that might be joining us, you know, the relatively new Bitcoiners,
269
00:19:21.045 --> 00:19:25.305
Explain to them why it is so fucking important that they don't leave their Bitcoin
270
00:19:25.900 --> 00:19:29.360
on the exchange they bought it on or put it into, like, a BlockFi
271
00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:30.240
custodial,
272
00:19:31.260 --> 00:19:36.265
like, KYC product? Like, why should they care enough to hold their own keys?
273
00:19:37.605 --> 00:19:38.985
274
00:19:39.925 --> 00:19:40.665
if you
275
00:19:41.090 --> 00:19:50.065
if you don't hold your own keys, you just have an IOU. Right? Which is all that you really have in the Fiat world anyway. Right? You just have this IOU from from the bank.
276
00:19:50.544 --> 00:19:51.044
And,
277
00:19:51.745 --> 00:20:03.320
frankly, if you're looking at an exchange, they're not even governed by the same regulations that banks are. So you have even less guarantees around that particular IOU. And, you know, you have the capability
278
00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:08.625
with Bitcoin to bypass that. And in the field world, you don't, unless you take it out in cash.
279
00:20:09.105 --> 00:20:16.625
And in India, that even that didn't really work. So, you know, it's it's you you have this incredible tool. And, you know, to not
280
00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.960
it's not to hold it in your own keys, to not take self custody
281
00:20:21.340 --> 00:20:28.044
of it and take advantage of all of the advantages that that gives gives you of being able to travel with it anywhere in the world,
282
00:20:28.345 --> 00:20:33.325
of being able to hold on to it through whatever so long as you don't make any mistakes.
283
00:20:33.705 --> 00:20:35.485
You know, I I think that it's
284
00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:39.470
it's a trade off, but I think it's one that's really worth taking. And,
285
00:20:39.929 --> 00:20:46.184
to to not take it or not even start going down that road and trying to learn more, I think, is a huge mistake.
286
00:20:46.485 --> 00:20:49.544
So that's kind of how I see it is, you know, it's
287
00:20:49.924 --> 00:20:55.225
a journey, and and I I know that it scares a lot of people off, and they, you know, really are
288
00:20:55.750 --> 00:20:57.930
looking at it and they're thinking there's so much
289
00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:06.225
to understand here. It's just beyond me. But it's it's honestly not. You know, these tools are getting easier all the time, and you don't need
290
00:21:06.764 --> 00:21:15.060
to go all the way to, you know, the sort of golden class of multi vendor, multi sig. You can get there. You can take take your time. And
291
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:27.515
and, you know, just start that journey. That's that's my kind of message is is to at least make an attempt and begin and learn. And then when you're ready, start getting your coins off the exchange.
292
00:21:27.870 --> 00:21:28.370
293
00:21:28.750 --> 00:21:32.450
mean, but I that's very well said, but I mean, I'm I'm so
294
00:21:33.309 --> 00:21:36.130
extremely on the opposite side of of
295
00:21:37.165 --> 00:21:40.865
custodial risk, like, it's so against everything that Bitcoin is.
296
00:21:41.565 --> 00:21:42.705
I kind of,
297
00:21:44.580 --> 00:21:50.279
you know, I I feel like sometimes, especially our conversations that we have here on dispatch and we have on RHR
298
00:21:50.580 --> 00:22:04.650
and and we have on TFTC and Stefan has on his podcast, and we have on Twitter and shit. Like, we we overwhelm people. They think they have to be too complicated, you know, as you and Niko were saying earlier that you wanna double check every single thing before you send it.
299
00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:09.130
I almost, like, even if I was, like, an uneducated
300
00:22:10.110 --> 00:22:10.890
a a uneducated,
301
00:22:11.215 --> 00:22:13.155
like, a fresh but motivated user,
302
00:22:14.095 --> 00:22:19.640
just, like, immediately pull it out to a mobile wallet. Or is that would you, like like, I almost, like, I'd rather
303
00:22:20.340 --> 00:22:26.360
hot wallet risk than custodial risk. Am I at you know, I'm is my priorities misplaced here?
304
00:22:27.065 --> 00:22:30.205
305
00:22:31.705 --> 00:22:33.165
306
00:22:36.650 --> 00:22:40.830
307
00:22:41.635 --> 00:22:51.450
Iko, because of of your work, with Samura Wallet and and making guides for Samura Wallet. Like, Samura Wallet is designed to be a very user friendly wallet.
308
00:22:51.830 --> 00:22:53.770
And, you know, is it,
309
00:22:55.350 --> 00:23:03.005
as secure for you know, if you wanna do, like, long term high value cold storage with, you know, multi sim, multi vendor,
310
00:23:04.825 --> 00:23:07.565
you know, using an an air gapped computer as well.
311
00:23:07.909 --> 00:23:14.390
You know, these are all additional things you could take. But if if just the average user is using something like Samura Wallet Hot Wallet on their phone,
312
00:23:16.005 --> 00:23:18.425
it's very accessible. Wouldn't wouldn't you agree?
313
00:23:18.885 --> 00:23:19.945
314
00:23:20.485 --> 00:23:23.950
Yeah. I use Samura Wallet all the time on my Android.
315
00:23:24.330 --> 00:23:26.350
I use BlueWallet on my iPhone.
316
00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:29.950
Dude, and, yeah, I've got substantial
317
00:23:30.409 --> 00:23:32.270
amounts of value
318
00:23:33.034 --> 00:23:34.335
on both of those wallets.
319
00:23:35.755 --> 00:23:39.455
You know, I I'd like to use cold storage just as much as the next person.
320
00:23:39.835 --> 00:23:42.095
But, you know, I I think people
321
00:23:43.390 --> 00:23:43.890
discredit
322
00:23:44.190 --> 00:23:45.090
how secure
323
00:23:45.470 --> 00:23:47.410
that really is. I mean, with
324
00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:48.690
with SHA 256
325
00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:52.855
encryption, you're you're you're getting, like, military grade
326
00:23:53.475 --> 00:23:55.495
security by default. And
327
00:23:56.675 --> 00:24:12.075
I think I think people kinda freak themselves out because they're like, oh, I need to I need to run my own node before I before I self custody. I need to I need to, like, get a multisig set up, and they they just kinda freak themselves out and end up not doing anything,
328
00:24:12.455 --> 00:24:15.835
which is probably the worst decision they can make. You know, like,
329
00:24:17.110 --> 00:24:18.810
get the coins off an exchange,
330
00:24:19.350 --> 00:24:20.730
set up a mobile wallet,
331
00:24:21.030 --> 00:24:26.570
start with small amounts until you get more and more comfortable with it, and just start building from there.
332
00:24:27.825 --> 00:24:30.005
It doesn't have to be overly complicated.
333
00:24:30.785 --> 00:24:33.285
And, you know, one of my arguments,
334
00:24:34.490 --> 00:24:37.789
and I'm sure some holes can be poked in this, but, like,
335
00:24:38.409 --> 00:24:40.590
everyone knows where Satoshi Nakamoto's
336
00:24:41.450 --> 00:24:43.950
mining rewards were deposited to.
337
00:24:44.255 --> 00:24:46.195
Those aren't in a multisig wallet,
338
00:24:46.815 --> 00:24:47.315
and
339
00:24:48.095 --> 00:24:53.235
no one has cracked that code. Like, it it's it's totally secure there. You don't have to
340
00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:54.950
go
341
00:24:55.570 --> 00:24:57.190
so far as to
342
00:24:58.210 --> 00:25:02.790
get all these different hardware wallets and set up multisig to have really great security.
343
00:25:05.185 --> 00:25:06.085
But it's possible.
344
00:25:08.785 --> 00:25:12.165
345
00:25:12.750 --> 00:25:23.075
of advising people to go and buy a hard hard hardware wallet, and it's got nothing to do with security that a hardware wallet offers. It has to do with the sort of human psychology
346
00:25:23.775 --> 00:25:25.395
of going out there and spending,
347
00:25:25.775 --> 00:25:30.659
you know, some money, and it's, you know, not not cheap for most people in this world,
348
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:45.995
you just take the whole thing a little bit more seriously. You know? I think that the the the by far the highest chance that any Bitcoiner has of losing their but Bitcoin is just, you know, their own their own sort of ability to lose keys or lose phones or
349
00:25:46.630 --> 00:25:52.890
whatever it is. And I I just kinda like the idea that if you've spent the money on the hard hardware wallets,
350
00:25:53.485 --> 00:26:01.025
you, you know, you've kind of made an investments in your mind, and now you're you're sort of taking the whole self custody thing a little bit more
351
00:26:02.490 --> 00:26:09.470
seriously. You know, you've got something you need to look after that's kind of unique in your world. So, anyway, just just a just a thought.
352
00:26:13.055 --> 00:26:15.875
353
00:26:17.615 --> 00:26:18.195
you know,
354
00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:24.330
for myself, personally, I I definitely did find some security in the idea of having an air gapped device.
355
00:26:25.510 --> 00:26:26.410
But I think
356
00:26:27.595 --> 00:26:29.135
over time, as I understood
357
00:26:30.235 --> 00:26:34.655
how things worked a little bit better, I was more and more comfortable with the idea of having
358
00:26:35.149 --> 00:26:36.769
larger amounts of funds
359
00:26:37.470 --> 00:26:38.929
on a mobile phone.
360
00:26:40.830 --> 00:26:44.815
And and I I feel totally fine with it now. I'm I'm confident with that setup.
361
00:26:48.575 --> 00:26:51.154
362
00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:52.929
First of all,
363
00:26:53.549 --> 00:26:54.289
you misspoke,
364
00:26:55.470 --> 00:26:56.929
briefly there. You said sha256,
365
00:26:58.029 --> 00:26:59.250
it's a s 256
366
00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:00.690
encryption usually,
367
00:27:01.595 --> 00:27:02.895
but that doesn't really matter.
368
00:27:03.355 --> 00:27:04.015
The ink
369
00:27:04.315 --> 00:27:08.095
ink it's important that every every all important data should be encrypted.
370
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:17.299
You know, it makes it it makes it more secure. But but when we talk about hot wallet risk, what we're really talking about is the the risk is that it's on an online device,
371
00:27:18.005 --> 00:27:19.385
and that device either
372
00:27:19.845 --> 00:27:20.585
the app
373
00:27:20.965 --> 00:27:24.105
itself that you're using could receive a malicious update,
374
00:27:24.965 --> 00:27:30.870
or the software that it's running on top of could receive some kind of malicious update. Right? And you you come in,
375
00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:34.230
you know, an attacker comes in and
376
00:27:34.784 --> 00:27:47.410
compromise that underlying system, and then they they trick you into either, you know, sending a a transaction or they just, you know, pull out your funds, or they, like, key log you and and wait till you put in your pass raise or something like that to take your funds.
377
00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:49.090
So that's risk.
378
00:27:50.255 --> 00:27:56.355
You know, the risk is probably often overstated. I mean, if you talk about compared to custodial,
379
00:27:57.450 --> 00:28:05.470
if you could talk about compared to custodial risk, you already the hacker already has your funds. Right? They're the exchange. Like, there there's no you don't have the funds yet.
380
00:28:06.215 --> 00:28:09.115
So when you compare it to custodial risk, I think
381
00:28:09.655 --> 00:28:10.475
it's substantially
382
00:28:10.855 --> 00:28:13.915
less risk. It's it's one of those things that, like, we have,
383
00:28:15.100 --> 00:28:16.799
yes, if you have a compromised,
384
00:28:17.580 --> 00:28:26.865
you know, mobile wallet, then then you could have funds stolen. We have not never seen a major a major one, a major hack to happen on any of these, you know,
385
00:28:27.885 --> 00:28:28.385
respected
386
00:28:28.845 --> 00:28:29.745
mobile wallets,
387
00:28:30.445 --> 00:28:31.745
in the history of Bitcoin.
388
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:40.100
That doesn't mean it won't happen, but we haven't. We've seen tons of exchange closers, hacks. We've seen people get their accounts closed and stuff.
389
00:28:40.635 --> 00:28:42.895
So I think it's a significant step improvement.
390
00:28:44.155 --> 00:28:44.895
In practice,
391
00:28:45.355 --> 00:28:48.815
what does a hardware wallet help with and Airgap help with?
392
00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:51.540
Airgap specifically helps with,
393
00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:53.460
the fact that
394
00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:57.060
the attacker needs to get access to the device
395
00:28:57.365 --> 00:29:03.705
usually or the air gapped computer. It's not connected to the Internet. So you know even if you're the dumbest computer user ever,
396
00:29:04.005 --> 00:29:05.945
you know if it's not connected to the Internet,
397
00:29:06.289 --> 00:29:10.149
they probably have to come into your home or your office or whatever to
398
00:29:10.610 --> 00:29:11.909
to to to compromise.
399
00:29:12.929 --> 00:29:16.765
The exception to that rule is twofold. The software that you used
400
00:29:18.825 --> 00:29:27.330
and if you update the hardware wallet, which is why it's important that people learn how to verify things, but they don't. You know, people don't. So it is what it is, but that that that is
401
00:29:27.790 --> 00:29:30.690
there you still have that attack vector there. Now
402
00:29:31.405 --> 00:29:40.305
what how does a hardware wallet help there? What really helps, I've noticed, is with Coldcard and I've just decided I I used to say, you know, use a treasure or ledger,
403
00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:51.215
if you're if you're a new user and then move up to Coldcard. I've decided that people should just go straight to Coldcard. Fuck it. If you're gonna use a hardware wallet, use Coldcard. The idea is instead of
404
00:29:51.755 --> 00:29:53.615
setting up a clean computer,
405
00:29:55.115 --> 00:30:06.885
that is air gapped and you don't think it's compromised, which is a very difficult thing for people to do, the cold card acts as your air gapped device as your air gapped computer. It's a purpose built small little computer. Now
406
00:30:07.665 --> 00:30:11.125
if you use that they don't make their own software. So if you use that with Sparrow
407
00:30:12.465 --> 00:30:13.525
and you're verifying
408
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:20.340
all everything that's happening on the cold card screen and you're verifying everything that's happening on on Sparrow on your computer,
409
00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:22.305
then you're
410
00:30:22.705 --> 00:30:31.845
essentially creating a situation, right, where you you need you need an attack an attacker has to compromise both. They have to compromise both the cold cards update mechanism,
411
00:30:32.420 --> 00:30:37.000
and they have to comp compromise Sparrow Wallet to to display it incorrectly.
412
00:30:37.620 --> 00:30:40.760
So you you add that that by adding that second,
413
00:30:41.995 --> 00:30:57.520
you know, that that combination attack, attackers will just go for the lowest hanging fruit, and that's what we see. Right? We see in practice. We can talk all day about all this shit, and in practice, what happens? In practice, the attackers just, you know, get people they trick people into just putting their seed into, a web page.
414
00:31:05.809 --> 00:31:06.309
415
00:31:07.809 --> 00:31:10.070
Sorry for misspeaking about that encryption,
416
00:31:11.010 --> 00:31:13.110
but I, you know, I do see your point,
417
00:31:13.565 --> 00:31:14.065
and,
418
00:31:15.485 --> 00:31:19.025
and I agree. I I think they do go after low hanging fruit and
419
00:31:20.510 --> 00:31:23.890
and get people to make critical mistakes like that.
420
00:31:26.350 --> 00:31:29.890
I guess maybe I did downplay the risk a little bit with the hot device.
421
00:31:33.645 --> 00:31:36.145
I do feel comfortable with it, though. And
422
00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:46.425
423
00:31:46.965 --> 00:31:48.745
424
00:31:49.205 --> 00:32:01.720
you know, that we have is is that when we talk about these these things, there's such a wide audience. You know, we've got people who are literally coming in having never considered holding Bitcoin, and, you know, last week, they bought their first stats.
425
00:32:02.419 --> 00:32:05.945
And then you've got people in the audience who have been doing this for, like, you
426
00:32:06.245 --> 00:32:10.985
know, 5, 6, 7 years and just kinda know everything. I mean, that's a huge range,
427
00:32:12.005 --> 00:32:17.550
of people that, you know, to talk talk to. So it's it's really hard to kind of say, well,
428
00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:18.590
you know,
429
00:32:19.130 --> 00:32:36.480
there's this von von vulnerability or there's this approach or that that that approach. I mean, my my sort of view is, you know, if you've just bought and you've managed to get your coins off the exchange, you're doing great. Like, well done. You know, pat yourself self on the back. All of the people, you know, all of the the talk around,
430
00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:45.425
the things that can go wrong, that's all very valid. You shouldn't completely ignore it, but don't let it put you off. Don't let it sort of throw you off the trail
431
00:32:45.725 --> 00:32:46.945
of figuring out
432
00:32:47.300 --> 00:32:49.000
how to make yourself more
433
00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:49.880
secure.
434
00:32:50.180 --> 00:33:07.090
The second thing is, you know, you kind of know in your own guts when you need to upgrade your your you know, how secure your setup is. You know, if you're lying awake thinking to yourself, well, that hot wallet, it's kind of the price has gone up. I'm not too sure whether
435
00:33:07.870 --> 00:33:20.235
that's a safe place for me anymore. You kind of have that feel yourself, and you should you should listen to that, and you should let that drive you to do more education, and then finally choose on something which is better. But, you know, don't rush into anything.
436
00:33:20.659 --> 00:33:22.039
Take your time, you know.
437
00:33:22.340 --> 00:33:44.240
Educate yourself. It's very unlikely that whatever you have today is going to fall over tomorrow. You know? So just it's almost sort of a peace of mind thing. You know? If you're if you're battling to sleep sleep at night or whatever because you're you're holding too much value in a setup that you don't feel is all that secure anymore, that's the time to kind of start working on it, I think.
438
00:33:48.095 --> 00:33:49.634
439
00:33:51.855 --> 00:33:57.700
440
00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:58.960
I,
441
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.659
I I I think,
442
00:34:01.679 --> 00:34:09.605
you know, the other, like, the other thing people like, I I don't want you, Eko, to I didn't mean to like, you shouldn't.
443
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:12.380
Hot wallets have a place,
444
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:13.579
and they're
445
00:34:14.359 --> 00:34:33.030
in practice, especially if you verify your software releases, and you check on, you know, to make sure that that it's actually the release that the developer has has released. And in that case, you're still trusting the developer, but you you're checking that, a malicious entity hasn't stepped in between you and the developer and given you a a bad copy of the software,
446
00:34:34.815 --> 00:34:41.555
are significantly more secure than people lead them to believe. And especially if you're gonna use something like Lightning or CoinJoin,
447
00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:46.440
you have no choice. You're going to be using a a Hot Wallet for that.
448
00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:49.800
And people get very very scared about that,
449
00:34:50.740 --> 00:34:51.240
but
450
00:34:51.745 --> 00:34:53.605
I personally have had significant
451
00:34:53.905 --> 00:34:55.285
funds in Hot Wallet
452
00:34:55.985 --> 00:34:59.685
and, you know, in Whirlpool's liquidity pool, in Whirlpool's privacy pool.
453
00:35:00.410 --> 00:35:02.030
And right now, if you
454
00:35:02.330 --> 00:35:04.750
if you look at, Clark Moody's dashboard,
455
00:35:05.930 --> 00:35:06.430
the,
456
00:35:07.425 --> 00:35:11.525
well, what is it? It's like a 2,000 Bitcoin right now or something like that.
457
00:35:11.825 --> 00:35:21.730
And then if you talk about on the Lightning side, it's like at, like, the public capacity is like at a 1,000 Bitcoin or something like that. So those are those are Bitcoins that we know for sure are in hot wallets,
458
00:35:23.405 --> 00:35:26.705
and they haven't been compromised yet. So there's something to be said there. Right?
459
00:35:28.925 --> 00:35:30.945
460
00:35:31.290 --> 00:35:34.430
you know, you know, I think the the bigger point is that you're
461
00:35:34.810 --> 00:35:37.630
you're taking more risk by keeping your coins
462
00:35:38.089 --> 00:35:39.710
in someone else's possession.
463
00:35:40.385 --> 00:35:42.725
You're now subject to their permission,
464
00:35:44.225 --> 00:35:47.125
and you're at a much greater risk of being censored.
465
00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:52.890
That's just a way more precarious situation to be in
466
00:35:53.430 --> 00:35:55.050
than to have your funds
467
00:35:55.845 --> 00:35:58.025
in a hot wallet, I I think.
468
00:35:58.404 --> 00:36:00.424
At least with the hot wallet, it's like
469
00:36:01.684 --> 00:36:02.744
you're responsible
470
00:36:03.125 --> 00:36:08.950
for that. And if anything goes wrong, it's it's most likely your fault. And
471
00:36:09.650 --> 00:36:16.775
and and I think that's what a lot of people need to come to terms with is is taking that radical responsibility and just understanding,
472
00:36:17.875 --> 00:36:19.335
like, if if you get
473
00:36:20.035 --> 00:36:21.975
tricked, like, yeah, that sucks.
474
00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:24.359
But, really, it's your fault for
475
00:36:25.059 --> 00:36:27.720
typing that mnemonic phrase into the computer.
476
00:36:28.740 --> 00:36:29.240
And,
477
00:36:30.734 --> 00:36:32.835
like, you just gotta take responsibility
478
00:36:33.295 --> 00:36:35.155
and understand what you're doing. And
479
00:36:36.015 --> 00:36:42.710
I highly recommend just starting with small amounts and working your way up until you're more comfortable with this stuff and understand it better.
480
00:36:46.105 --> 00:36:48.125
481
00:36:48.585 --> 00:36:59.880
for sure. And you should always if you have a new setup of of any kind, you know, just test it with a few small amounts. Send some transactions in, send some transactions out, check everything, you know.
482
00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:03.000
I think the best advice is just really just to
483
00:37:03.875 --> 00:37:05.175
take some time to,
484
00:37:06.435 --> 00:37:07.095
you know,
485
00:37:07.795 --> 00:37:08.295
move
486
00:37:08.595 --> 00:37:09.095
any
487
00:37:09.474 --> 00:37:09.974
significant
488
00:37:10.915 --> 00:37:13.960
value to it. You know, don't rush into it, because
489
00:37:14.420 --> 00:37:16.840
the more you can learn, the safer you'll be.
490
00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:20.280
491
00:37:22.035 --> 00:37:24.695
492
00:37:25.075 --> 00:37:25.875
show because,
493
00:37:26.275 --> 00:37:27.015
he refuses.
494
00:37:27.395 --> 00:37:29.730
So we can talk about that, Craig. 6102
495
00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:33.230
thinks that you're a failure in in NIM Land,
496
00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:34.050
because,
497
00:37:34.510 --> 00:37:40.115
we're we're hearing your voice right now, and he refuses to dox his voice. So this is also 60 one zero two's show,
498
00:37:40.494 --> 00:37:46.355
because he joins us live in the chat to hit us with, questions and comments. And one thing he mentioned here,
499
00:37:47.230 --> 00:37:49.410
is is a simple thing you can do
500
00:37:49.710 --> 00:37:56.705
is just use multiple different types of wallets. Right? And even if they're not multisig, if they're single sig, multi you know, different types of wallets,
501
00:37:57.885 --> 00:38:04.785
you the the chances that you lose everything are are greatly diminished because you you would need multiple wallets to get screwed.
502
00:38:07.390 --> 00:38:08.849
503
00:38:10.430 --> 00:38:11.250
But, you know,
504
00:38:11.950 --> 00:38:13.970
you know, we can cert certainly,
505
00:38:14.285 --> 00:38:27.070
you know, talk about, you know, what it is to you know, what what the right choices are for those getting into it. But I think if we were to zoom out a bit and we see where Bitcoin what we all believe Bitcoin is likely to go in terms
506
00:38:27.609 --> 00:38:31.975
of value, I I I do think there's value in having discussion now
507
00:38:32.435 --> 00:38:39.300
about more advanced stuff. And I you know, it's it's not intended to put people off, but I I I do think we need to get into
508
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:42.740
what does ideal cold storage look like,
509
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:43.860
and,
510
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.500
you know, how how do we move
511
00:38:46.994 --> 00:38:48.775
forward on that goal? Because,
512
00:38:49.474 --> 00:38:52.214
you know, it could end up being that we're all holding
513
00:38:52.515 --> 00:38:53.654
significant value,
514
00:38:54.470 --> 00:38:57.370
you know, on on a level that we can't even really
515
00:38:57.670 --> 00:39:05.405
sort of imagine today. And and how are we gonna do that? You know? At that stage, a hot hot wallet is not gonna be the right right thing.
516
00:39:06.105 --> 00:39:08.045
How are we gonna protect ourselves against
517
00:39:08.585 --> 00:39:13.970
physical attacks? You know, those are those are the kind of things that I spend a lot of time thinking about.
518
00:39:14.590 --> 00:39:15.090
So,
519
00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:16.210
you know,
520
00:39:16.910 --> 00:39:19.650
again, we're talking to a very broad audience here,
521
00:39:20.605 --> 00:39:25.585
but, you know, I'd like to spend some time on that because I do think we need to
522
00:39:25.885 --> 00:39:32.200
at least talk about it so we can end up in the right right place at some point further down down down the path.
523
00:39:33.540 --> 00:39:34.660
524
00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:37.400
This is why I brought you on. I think I
525
00:39:37.745 --> 00:39:41.685
I I think in in Bitcoin land, it's important to be an adversarial thinker.
526
00:39:42.225 --> 00:39:45.365
In general, I think, a lot of shit corners miss that.
527
00:39:45.985 --> 00:39:46.565
You know,
528
00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:49.680
naivety is a liability in this industry,
529
00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:52.640
and I appreciated when you reached out to me,
530
00:39:53.180 --> 00:39:56.800
saying I wasn't being adversarial enough, which is always a good sign.
531
00:39:57.415 --> 00:40:03.595
So I I mean, what I wanted to do there was I I really wanted to unpack it for the freaks and go back, and then we come back.
532
00:40:04.055 --> 00:40:05.115
So now we're here.
533
00:40:06.630 --> 00:40:12.490
I have a feeling what we're about to talk about is is multi, you know, multi vendor, multi sig.
534
00:40:13.430 --> 00:40:18.434
And and I want you to just let's let's go. What do you what do you think is is
535
00:40:18.734 --> 00:40:23.155
the ideal path here? What what are Freaks looking at? I I think one thing people don't realize
536
00:40:23.855 --> 00:40:24.355
is,
537
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.060
they, like, kinda realize it, but they don't they don't put 2 and 2 together.
538
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:36.315
Most of us, I know myself, self, I know I'm gonna get both of you on the record whether or not you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.
539
00:40:36.775 --> 00:40:45.820
I mean, I I think we think Bitcoin is gonna go up significantly in value, and I think if you've been here for even a tiny bit, you realize that happens way
540
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.380
at a at a large you know, quicker pace and at a larger scale than you could ever fathom.
541
00:40:51.125 --> 00:40:59.785
So one thing that MBK often says is, you know, treat it like 10 x of of what it's currently, and I I think even more than that. You know, we we talked about Gox earlier,
542
00:41:01.330 --> 00:41:04.630
and I'm gonna have that live stream tomorrow about Gox. Like,
543
00:41:05.010 --> 00:41:08.070
those people, they lost their coins at $800 a coin.
544
00:41:08.815 --> 00:41:14.355
Even the most bullish people couldn't fathom that it was gonna be 50,000 that was gonna be $48,000
545
00:41:14.655 --> 00:41:17.090
and people are gonna be scared that it was dumping. Right?
546
00:41:17.810 --> 00:41:19.670
So like they couldn't fathom that shit.
547
00:41:20.050 --> 00:41:27.075
And and that's that's how we have to think about security going forward. So so let's jump in here, Craig. This is why I wanted you on the show.
548
00:41:28.035 --> 00:41:28.535
549
00:41:28.994 --> 00:41:34.935
Yeah. So I mean, look, as I was saying earlier, I do think that multi vendor, multi sig is
550
00:41:35.329 --> 00:41:37.990
is currently the best you can can do,
551
00:41:38.369 --> 00:41:51.325
in a sort of general sense. I mean, there's always, you know, other ways to to kind of look look at look at things, but I think that that's gonna be the most common path, for people to kind of achieve the best cold storage that they can.
552
00:41:52.109 --> 00:41:58.930
Very briefly, why multi vendor? It's really because if there is a vulnerability in any specific vendor's product,
553
00:41:59.345 --> 00:42:01.525
you know, there's gonna have to be
554
00:42:01.865 --> 00:42:02.365
a,
555
00:42:02.705 --> 00:42:04.725
you know, something that can be,
556
00:42:05.185 --> 00:42:05.685
exploited
557
00:42:06.465 --> 00:42:06.965
in
558
00:42:07.265 --> 00:42:08.405
the other vendor's
559
00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:12.839
product at the same time. And the chances of this sort of multiplicative,
560
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:20.095
experience or kind of event happening is really so so low that you can
561
00:42:20.395 --> 00:42:24.095
you can almost rule that that sort of out. So, you know,
562
00:42:24.635 --> 00:42:41.255
it it sort of allows you to to worry so much less about which vendor I'm using and, you know, is Trezor you know, can you put it into a little box and get the sick sick secrets out, or is Ledger closed saucer? All of these things suddenly
563
00:42:42.035 --> 00:42:43.815
fade into the background because
564
00:42:44.210 --> 00:42:45.589
all of a sudden you're now
565
00:42:46.369 --> 00:42:58.625
just looking at you know, that have to find a way to exploit your treasure and your gold card at the same same time. And and there's just almost zero chance that that's ever gonna happen. It's already very hard to do 1. To do 2
566
00:42:59.325 --> 00:43:12.755
is, you know, you just multiply those two chances together, and you end up with an extremely small numb number. So that's really the basis of why that is, I think, the best way to get to, you know, really good cold store storage.
567
00:43:14.815 --> 00:43:15.395
You know,
568
00:43:15.775 --> 00:43:16.994
in terms of of
569
00:43:19.135 --> 00:43:27.450
the physical attack side of side of side of things, you know, I'm gonna dox myself even more more here and say that I live in South Africa,
570
00:43:27.965 --> 00:43:32.705
which is one of the, you know, the highest crime rates in the in the world. So
571
00:43:33.245 --> 00:43:43.240
the that's obviously not a good thing, but the one good thing that it it it is is that it's just that everyone lives here with this really sort of adversarial thinking in terms of physical attack.
572
00:43:44.435 --> 00:43:52.935
And, you know, one of the the best ways you can do you can avoid that as a bit Bitcoin corner, and I saw someone say it say it say it in the comments now,
573
00:43:53.270 --> 00:43:59.690
is really just making sure that your devices are spread over a large area so that you have to travel to those
574
00:44:00.285 --> 00:44:13.400
areas that it takes time to get there and that, hopefully, you can pass through some security checkpoints on on the way. And I think that that's a really important thing. It certainly makes my life feel better that I'm not sitting there
575
00:44:13.780 --> 00:44:17.484
wondering if someone's gonna on my door with a gun and say, you know,
576
00:44:17.865 --> 00:44:18.845
I'm going to,
577
00:44:19.145 --> 00:44:21.724
you know, do something really bad to you or your wife
578
00:44:22.105 --> 00:44:35.684
if you don't hand over your keys. So for me, that's pretty important, and I think it's a little bit under recognized in the Bitcoin world today. You know, I think that maybe it's just a point of view that I sort of have,
579
00:44:36.704 --> 00:44:38.484
because of where I live, but
580
00:44:39.025 --> 00:44:40.484
I can't see how
581
00:44:40.865 --> 00:44:44.140
it doesn't become a bigger threat as Bitcoin grows.
582
00:44:44.520 --> 00:44:48.940
And, you know, you might say, well, I'm, you know, making sure that I'm
583
00:44:49.480 --> 00:45:00.395
never doxing myself, and my address is always, and that's that's great. That's you should do do do that do that. But at some point, there's gonna be so many holders of bit Bitcoin, and it's gonna be such an easy
584
00:45:00.890 --> 00:45:12.245
or or sort of the easiest way to walk out of your home with the most value that I think that, you know, there will come a point in the future where these these kind of thoughts become fairly important. So that's kind of,
585
00:45:13.025 --> 00:45:21.099
586
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.819
benefit of multi sig is physical attacks. Right?
587
00:45:28.095 --> 00:45:28.595
588
00:45:30.575 --> 00:45:31.075
589
00:45:31.935 --> 00:45:32.435
2%
590
00:45:32.815 --> 00:45:42.980
massive improvement there that doesn't exist for anything non Bitcoin Bitcoin related. I mean, if if we talk about what people don't realize is when when self custody was big back in the Wild West days, like stagecoast
591
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:45.780
stagecoaches were getting robbed all the fucking time.
592
00:45:46.685 --> 00:45:49.745
You know, banks were getting robbed until just relatively recently.
593
00:45:50.125 --> 00:45:52.990
So now if you're your own bank, you have to do with that. Now, Craig,
594
00:45:53.470 --> 00:46:01.010
just one thing I would mention is I think one of the reasons we don't hear more about it is because we have a lot of big corners in America.
595
00:46:01.585 --> 00:46:05.684
In America, we have, you know, relatively low crime rates and high gun ownership.
596
00:46:06.545 --> 00:46:15.039
So that kind of mitigates it a tiny bit, but I I mean, multisig takes it to a whole another fucking level, and and it's actually even bigger than just multisig.
597
00:46:15.500 --> 00:46:16.000
Really,
598
00:46:17.155 --> 00:46:20.855
as a as a as a community, we need to make multisig
599
00:46:21.395 --> 00:46:23.815
the expected standard. It's almost like,
600
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:27.980
because because the attacker if the attacker's already in your home
601
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:33.645
and they're, like, you know, torturing you or, like, fuck you up, and they have a gun to your head,
602
00:46:33.965 --> 00:46:46.230
they might not they're that crazy person or that motivated person might not, you know, believe you at the time. Right? It's like, the the alarm systems when when you have something outside that says, you know, I own a dog or I have this alarm system.
603
00:46:47.810 --> 00:46:51.990
There's there's a there's I'm gonna trigger a lot of people. There's a herd immunity,
604
00:46:52.805 --> 00:46:58.185
in in Multisig. If if if the industry standard becomes Multisig,
605
00:46:59.204 --> 00:47:05.400
people won't even think about trying because they'll just assume that any average BitCorner is gonna be using multisig. Would you agree?
606
00:47:06.020 --> 00:47:18.135
607
00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:20.700
it's it's something that's brought immense
608
00:47:21.240 --> 00:47:31.965
peace of mind to my own own life. So, you know, I just want others to kind of share in that. And, you know, it's something you should work towards, I think. It's not that hard to do.
609
00:47:32.665 --> 00:47:37.870
It's not that expense expense expense to to do. And, you know, you should really just make sure that
610
00:47:38.270 --> 00:47:39.650
your home is not
611
00:47:40.430 --> 00:47:44.930
is not, like, the the complete answer to your your kind of
612
00:47:45.625 --> 00:47:48.285
personal wealth. There's not where you store everything, because
613
00:47:48.665 --> 00:47:52.204
it just makes you way too big a target target target. And,
614
00:47:52.670 --> 00:47:57.470
you know, there are some unpleasant people out there in the world who will take a bond bondage of it. There's
615
00:47:58.190 --> 00:48:01.090
it it really, I think, is just a matter of time before it becomes
616
00:48:01.390 --> 00:48:02.370
a bigger thing.
617
00:48:03.295 --> 00:48:05.395
618
00:48:06.815 --> 00:48:08.035
I would so,
619
00:48:08.815 --> 00:48:12.320
one thing we talk about on the show a lot, if you've listened in the past
620
00:48:13.200 --> 00:48:20.580
is this idea that I say self sovereign multisig, I've it was about 4 months ago, I said it's about 6 months away, like easy self sovereign multisig.
621
00:48:21.115 --> 00:48:22.175
And I I think
622
00:48:22.475 --> 00:48:26.015
there's a couple different concerns that people have here. So so unquestionably,
623
00:48:26.955 --> 00:48:32.930
if it's if all you care about is physical attacks, it's a significant improvement. No doubt about it. A 100% do it.
624
00:48:34.750 --> 00:48:35.250
The
625
00:48:36.244 --> 00:48:48.410
when I say self sovereign multisig, I'm differentiating from Unchained Capital or Casa where they have a they host a key for you and your pub keys for you, because in that case, you're giving up your privacy. And in that case,
626
00:48:49.670 --> 00:48:52.810
not only are there's a level of trust that you're giving to them,
627
00:48:53.255 --> 00:48:58.475
you're a 100% trusting them with your privacy. And because you're trusting them with your privacy, your balances, your transactions,
628
00:48:59.095 --> 00:49:11.175
it can make you more prone to physical attack in the future if if they get hacked or, if they get compelled to release it to governments or and then the government gets hacked. There's all different, you know, your your private information is out there.
629
00:49:11.714 --> 00:49:13.734
So I I think it doesn't reduce
630
00:49:14.195 --> 00:49:22.840
I I think it does help in in certain threat models, and everyone has different threat models, but doesn't have help as much. Now the 2 main concerns about multisig and we're seeing some of them in the comments.
631
00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:26.920
The first one is backing up is is a little bit more complex.
632
00:49:27.415 --> 00:49:31.355
I I would push back against that. I mean, basically, what it means in practice
633
00:49:31.734 --> 00:49:32.234
is
634
00:49:32.935 --> 00:49:39.360
you need to have, this additional backup file, and and that backup up file is obviously risk. You might as well keep that with each key.
635
00:49:39.820 --> 00:49:42.320
And if you keep that extra file with each key,
636
00:49:43.420 --> 00:49:46.160
then then you're good to go, that that extra backup information.
637
00:49:46.765 --> 00:49:54.385
So I you're already backing up one piece of information. You back up an additional piece of information. You put that with each with each seed. That's not a,
638
00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:57.980
or each each hardware wallet. That that's not a,
639
00:49:59.740 --> 00:50:16.030
really as complicated as people might make it seem. Now I think the real concern about Multisig right now is the lack of standards between hardware wallets. And because of the lack of standards between hardware wallets, they're not able to communicate effectively the the information they need to communicate
640
00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:21.935
to to verify against each other. So if you're using, like, a single sig cold card,
641
00:50:23.435 --> 00:50:30.150
you it's it's it's a it's a easy standard process to verify your receive addresses, your change addresses, and stuff on screen.
642
00:50:30.930 --> 00:50:33.910
If if you're using multi vendor, multi sig,
643
00:50:35.244 --> 00:50:41.744
you I I think right now, in practice, you can't verify any any kind of information on the individual hardware wallet screens.
644
00:50:42.359 --> 00:50:47.980
Like, am I right that this is the big this is basically the biggest pain point we're sitting at right now in in this ideal setup?
645
00:50:49.464 --> 00:50:52.444
646
00:50:53.145 --> 00:50:57.005
We we definitely need to make some ground ground there. And, you know, it's it's
647
00:50:57.630 --> 00:51:07.055
frustrating to me, and I'm sure, you know, all of the freaks that, you know, these these guys you know, it's it's not that hard to do. It's really not. Like, we have standards
648
00:51:07.915 --> 00:51:10.235
like the the Bitcoin core,
649
00:51:10.795 --> 00:51:13.455
output descriptors now, which, you know,
650
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:15.700
really make this sort of stuff easy.
651
00:51:16.720 --> 00:51:18.480
And, you know, it's
652
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:20.500
I I just think we need,
653
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:22.125
as customers
654
00:51:22.425 --> 00:51:25.805
of these companies, we need to put pressure on them to
655
00:51:26.425 --> 00:51:30.045
kind of add, you know, these key features that we need because,
656
00:51:30.839 --> 00:51:35.740
you're absolutely right, Matt. These are these are things that are currently very hard to do. For instance,
657
00:51:36.040 --> 00:51:40.185
in h w I, which is the line library behind the scenes that talks
658
00:51:40.985 --> 00:51:44.365
via USB to your sort of trezle or whatever,
659
00:51:44.825 --> 00:51:45.645
the multisig
660
00:51:45.945 --> 00:51:47.405
display address command,
661
00:51:47.730 --> 00:51:58.185
it just doesn't really work. And the lead maintainer of that, Andrew Chow, you know, he's just said, you know, it's just super hard to get get this to work. So, you know, it's
662
00:51:58.565 --> 00:51:58.645
it's,
663
00:51:59.605 --> 00:52:04.905
it's it's stuff that is not hard for them to do. I I I really just feel that,
664
00:52:05.605 --> 00:52:07.200
more people need to ask for it.
665
00:52:10.707 --> 00:52:11.207
666
00:52:14.295 --> 00:52:17.035
667
00:52:17.335 --> 00:52:18.955
partially signed Bitcoin transactions,
668
00:52:19.415 --> 00:52:23.495
which have now basically become a standard, that's, like, relatively new, and it's because,
669
00:52:24.030 --> 00:52:26.770
NVK, like, at Coldcard started pushing for it.
670
00:52:27.230 --> 00:52:32.370
So just with everything else, like, we've made a lot of progress. I also saw in the comments, I did forget to mention Nunchuk.
671
00:52:32.885 --> 00:52:35.145
I mean, between these open source,
672
00:52:36.005 --> 00:52:36.505
wallets,
673
00:52:37.204 --> 00:52:38.105
you know, Sparrow,
674
00:52:38.724 --> 00:52:40.505
Specter, Nunchuk, BlueWallet,
675
00:52:41.790 --> 00:52:42.290
Caravan,
676
00:52:42.910 --> 00:53:01.299
and, like, the and these new standards that are, like, coming around. Like, I I it feels really bullish. I I feel like I feel like the industry is coming together. I wish they came together a little bit quicker, but they are coming together on this idea that, you know, instead of being a hardware wallet manufacturer, you're just a you're just manufacturing
677
00:53:01.839 --> 00:53:02.500
a key,
678
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:07.535
like a signer device of of of a broader of a broader wallet. Right?
679
00:53:08.875 --> 00:53:10.175
680
00:53:11.355 --> 00:53:16.180
681
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:24.845
like, you have no there's no business model for Sparo. Right? Like, you've come to the you you you know that you're you're never gonna make money from this thing. Right?
682
00:53:25.625 --> 00:53:31.550
683
00:53:32.250 --> 00:53:33.470
you know, it's really
684
00:53:33.770 --> 00:53:37.985
refreshing to just do something with a a pure sort of mission to it.
685
00:53:38.625 --> 00:53:48.869
And that gets me up every day. You know, I can't argue just to go on a tangent for that. I I can't, you know, tell anyone else what their mission is, but I I know that this is mine.
686
00:53:49.250 --> 00:53:55.990
So, I'm keen to keep on going on this path and and try and make the best tools for those who wanna be as
687
00:53:57.505 --> 00:53:59.924
secure as they can can be. So yeah.
688
00:54:02.305 --> 00:54:07.045
689
00:54:07.580 --> 00:54:08.320
and and
690
00:54:08.780 --> 00:54:14.240
Coldcard's always been good about this, is, like, they should just be, like, a little bit less greedy. Like, they don't need to control the whole pie.
691
00:54:14.955 --> 00:54:22.095
They're making some profit off of their devices, and they don't need to, you know, have a lockdown system. We need open interoperable systems.
692
00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.660
And I think, ultimately,
693
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:26.900
especially in a world of personal responsibility,
694
00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:30.500
open, you know,
695
00:54:30.815 --> 00:54:34.115
verifiable options are gonna be the ones that are chosen.
696
00:54:34.494 --> 00:54:41.300
They're the ones that are gonna win out in the market anyway. So if if you're gonna argue against that and you're gonna just try and create a closed system,
697
00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:44.260
I mean, it's just short term thinking.
698
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:59.620
699
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.380
in Sparrow, you can easily export to Electrospectrum,
700
00:55:04.365 --> 00:55:11.425
Spectre, or what have you, you know. And at least you can check the addresses in those. Right? The chances that all of those are gonna be compromised
701
00:55:11.805 --> 00:55:17.309
on your machine are pretty low. So that's one way you can get around this sort of hardware wallets,
702
00:55:18.490 --> 00:55:26.805
issue of not being able to actually check the addresses on the device, which is obviously the best. Right? We we would all want that, and hopefully, we'll get it get it soon.
703
00:55:28.065 --> 00:55:29.445
704
00:55:29.905 --> 00:55:31.605
Eco back into this. I mean,
705
00:55:32.020 --> 00:55:35.400
Eco, like, would you ever use a closed source wallet
706
00:55:35.700 --> 00:55:36.600
with your Bitcoin?
707
00:55:41.375 --> 00:55:42.015
708
00:55:43.295 --> 00:55:44.435
no. I
709
00:55:44.815 --> 00:55:49.690
I I'm I think I'm guilty of it, though, because I've used I used key keys before
710
00:55:50.230 --> 00:55:51.369
I used Coldcard.
711
00:55:52.630 --> 00:55:53.130
And
712
00:55:53.910 --> 00:55:57.130
to be honest, you know, I'm not a developer. I'm not a coder.
713
00:55:57.485 --> 00:55:59.185
I really appreciate the fact
714
00:55:59.645 --> 00:56:04.625
that cold card is open source, or I don't really wanna spark the license debate.
715
00:56:05.485 --> 00:56:05.985
But,
716
00:56:07.230 --> 00:56:11.730
I appreciate the fact that it's open sourced. But to be perfectly honest, like,
717
00:56:12.109 --> 00:56:24.035
I wouldn't know what to do with that information if I went online and looked at it. Like, I I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's malicious or not. So I like the idea that other people can look at it and determine
718
00:56:24.710 --> 00:56:28.089
if it's malicious. But, personally, myself, like,
719
00:56:28.950 --> 00:56:32.789
I I wouldn't be able to tell for myself if it is or not. If
720
00:56:33.685 --> 00:56:40.345
but to specifically answer your question, if if a hardware wallet's like, yeah, this is closed source. Like, no one can look at it.
721
00:56:41.890 --> 00:56:44.070
Like, take it or leave it. I'm gonna leave it.
722
00:56:45.330 --> 00:56:48.470
723
00:56:49.155 --> 00:56:51.015
you have the secure element concept.
724
00:56:51.715 --> 00:56:55.815
The secure elements are usually closed source, and it adds additional physical protection.
725
00:56:56.130 --> 00:57:03.110
So what people don't realize is, like, if you're just storing, you know, your Bitcoin on Bitcoin Core on an air gapped laptop, for instance,
726
00:57:03.585 --> 00:57:06.085
and someone, like, comes into your house and takes your laptop,
727
00:57:07.025 --> 00:57:10.085
if you'd haven't encrypted that laptop with a strong passphrase,
728
00:57:10.945 --> 00:57:22.605
they could probably break it. Now a a secure element on these devices makes it so those kind of brute force attacks where they're just, like, hitting you with a ton and ton and ton of of of, you know, attempted guest passphrases,
729
00:57:23.545 --> 00:57:26.285
doesn't work. Like, the the cold card secure element
730
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:33.940
makes it so that if there's 13 mistakes, it's supposed to fucking wipe the thing, and the secure element enforces that.
731
00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:43.990
So with Harbor Wallet, it's a little bit different, and when you use multisig, you reduce the trust in between them. For software, I I I'm a I'm a hardliner here.
732
00:57:44.630 --> 00:57:46.970
I mean, I agree with you that, you know,
733
00:57:47.510 --> 00:57:53.765
it's you know, we've only had 10 episodes of serial dispatch, and we're only gonna get into the licensing argument. For 3 of the 10 so far would be nice.
734
00:57:54.724 --> 00:57:55.444
I I,
735
00:57:56.164 --> 00:58:01.785
the important thing to me is source viewable. The word you were looking for is source viewable. So you're able to view the source.
736
00:58:02.130 --> 00:58:04.390
What that means is and and specifically,
737
00:58:05.809 --> 00:58:13.115
if you can use it for purse if the license says you can use it for personal uses, but you can use it for commercial use. But but the real thing is is source viewable.
738
00:58:13.575 --> 00:58:15.915
And and the reason isn't so that you,
739
00:58:16.375 --> 00:58:20.234
as a talented developer, can actually audit you yourself. It's it's
740
00:58:20.570 --> 00:58:21.790
it's twofold. It's
741
00:58:22.330 --> 00:58:26.910
the first thing is that other people can audit it, and if it's a useful piece of software,
742
00:58:27.744 --> 00:58:32.405
presumably, you know, there'll be more eyes on it because there'll be more people using it.
743
00:58:33.025 --> 00:58:35.125
And then the second thing is survivability.
744
00:58:35.984 --> 00:58:36.965
There's this,
745
00:58:38.930 --> 00:58:40.150
it's just really underappreciated,
746
00:58:40.610 --> 00:58:47.555
this idea that, you know, if if you're using and, like, a a a good example is, like, Samura Wallet. Right? So you're using Samura Wallet,
747
00:58:48.175 --> 00:58:55.910
you're storing your Bitcoin in Samura Wallet, and, you know, fortunately, we have we have some standards in BIP 39. I mean, you're supposed to know your
748
00:58:56.290 --> 00:59:00.390
derivation path, but for the big wallets, that information will probably never disappear.
749
00:59:00.770 --> 00:59:03.714
So, like, you have some protection there. But the concern
750
00:59:04.095 --> 00:59:08.115
that I see from a lot of normies when they don't realize is is you come into the space,
751
00:59:08.974 --> 00:59:18.810
oh, that's a perfect example. I forget the name of it. They, like, turned into shit corners. You come into the space and you're like, if if I have this wall, how do I know it's still gonna work in 5 years?
752
00:59:19.425 --> 00:59:23.285
Right? And if you have something, like, obscure backup method and you're closed source,
753
00:59:24.465 --> 00:59:26.565
there that that company could just disappear.
754
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:30.420
That company can disappear, and you just never have access to your funds.
755
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:33.060
Open source, there there's
756
00:59:33.440 --> 00:59:36.045
it's it's like a fucking virus, you know. It's like
757
00:59:36.685 --> 00:59:42.205
it's just like you can't kill it. Like, the code is out there. It's like Barbara Streisand. You you post you post,
758
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:50.740
you know, you you you you post a picture on the Internet. You have to assume that picture is never coming off the Internet. You pour sort put source code on the Internet,
759
00:59:51.385 --> 00:59:51.705
and,
760
00:59:52.265 --> 01:00:01.460
like, that source code is always gonna be out there. It's gonna be if it's good if it's it's good code, like, it's gonna be flowed and it's gonna get forked. It's gonna get changed and stuff, and you you can always find it
761
01:00:02.260 --> 01:00:02.760
in
762
01:00:03.560 --> 01:00:04.060
5
763
01:00:04.860 --> 01:00:05.360
years.
764
01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:07.540
765
01:00:07.840 --> 01:00:09.300
that's totally critical,
766
01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:10.580
and
767
01:00:11.265 --> 01:00:11.765
I
768
01:00:12.385 --> 01:00:13.845
I feel better when
769
01:00:14.704 --> 01:00:16.085
I know that I can just
770
01:00:17.105 --> 01:00:17.605
secure
771
01:00:17.905 --> 01:00:19.660
a small amount of information
772
01:00:20.040 --> 01:00:23.980
and regenerate that wallet on multiple different platforms,
773
01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:28.700
whether that's a cold card or a samurai wallet or blue wallet.
774
01:00:29.945 --> 01:00:34.365
And, honestly, it wasn't until very recently that I learned about the BIP 39,
775
01:00:35.225 --> 01:00:38.365
derivation path and how important it was to notate that.
776
01:00:40.109 --> 01:00:40.609
So
777
01:00:41.790 --> 01:00:43.650
778
01:00:46.109 --> 01:00:47.410
the derivation path.
779
01:00:48.165 --> 01:00:50.265
780
01:00:52.724 --> 01:00:54.744
what could you explain what
781
01:00:55.045 --> 01:00:56.984
what the what the issue is?
782
01:00:57.890 --> 01:00:59.750
783
01:01:00.369 --> 01:01:06.869
with derivation paths is is people think the seed's the private key, but really the seed you derive the private keys from the seed.
784
01:01:07.395 --> 01:01:10.615
So the paths allow you to, you know, have different variations
785
01:01:10.915 --> 01:01:11.415
of
786
01:01:12.115 --> 01:01:13.495
the same source material
787
01:01:14.355 --> 01:01:18.500
generates different addresses for you. Now there's, like, semi standards around them,
788
01:01:19.040 --> 01:01:26.615
and really what we want is, like, complete standards about which derivation path is used by but for for each different situation.
789
01:01:28.115 --> 01:01:28.515
But,
790
01:01:29.315 --> 01:01:47.214
I I think for the major wallets, like, that information never disappears, you know. Like, in a in a real world situation in 5 years, you only have the seed. The thing you really need to know is which wallet was it generated in. You know, like, you don't have to go and think about, like, exactly the derivation pass. Like, you know, it was created in Samari Wallet, you know, in 2019.
791
01:01:47.674 --> 01:01:59.265
Like, that information isn't gonna disappear, out of the Internet. It's a very used it's a heavily used wallet. Now if you're using some random ass fucking wallet and you don't know what the debit path is, like, yeah, then you might lose your funds forever.
792
01:01:59.904 --> 01:02:08.085
Like, Craig, you wanna add on to this? Like, what what are your thoughts here in terms of, like, the the idea that people should be keeping the seed and the derivation path and whatnot?
793
01:02:09.200 --> 01:02:13.220
794
01:02:13.520 --> 01:02:20.405
becoming less of a risk. I kind of agree with you. I think it's a little bit over overblown. You know? Yes. We do lack some, like, documented
795
01:02:20.945 --> 01:02:21.845
stamp standards
796
01:02:22.145 --> 01:02:42.135
on a few of these these things. I think BIP 80 4 is the main main one. But, you know, to be honest, all of the wallets that I've used, and I've used quite a few, they all follow, you know, the guidelines. They're all doing the same same same thing. You know, I I think any wallet that, you know, is talked about in the community
797
01:02:42.835 --> 01:02:46.010
that doesn't do that will be brought to task so so fast.
798
01:02:46.890 --> 01:02:50.590
It's not really a major cons concern. You know?
799
01:02:51.370 --> 01:02:54.030
You know, make your backups for sure.
800
01:02:54.330 --> 01:02:54.830
But
801
01:02:55.215 --> 01:02:57.715
to be honest, to go and test the, I don't
802
01:02:58.095 --> 01:03:00.355
know, you know, 6 or so pods
803
01:03:00.655 --> 01:03:01.155
that
804
01:03:01.535 --> 01:03:11.530
it could be is gonna take you almost no time at all. Right? It's it's gonna take you, like, a half hour at at most, even if you had no idea. Then we got sites like wallets recovery.org.
805
01:03:13.655 --> 01:03:15.915
There's just so much resource out there.
806
01:03:16.535 --> 01:03:21.350
I I just can't see how the derivation part thing is a major issue anymore.
807
01:03:21.670 --> 01:03:28.250
We should certainly make it make it better, for sure, and we're working on that. But, I don't think it's something that should
808
01:03:29.110 --> 01:03:30.055
worry you too much.
809
01:03:30.934 --> 01:03:33.515
810
01:03:33.895 --> 01:03:39.035
He, like I think he created a plugin for Electrum that just, like, automatically checks all the top derivation paths.
811
01:03:40.630 --> 01:03:42.970
812
01:03:45.910 --> 01:03:51.545
813
01:03:52.165 --> 01:03:59.380
Craig, your perspective as a developer, like, why are developing why are developer teams using different derivation paths?
814
01:04:00.640 --> 01:04:11.595
815
01:04:12.140 --> 01:04:17.840
you know, Bitcoin has evolved, and we've got different script types. Right? So we've got, you know,
816
01:04:18.140 --> 01:04:19.200
we've got the original,
817
01:04:19.605 --> 01:04:29.120
which is generally called legacy. We've got the nested Segwit, and then we've got the native Segwit Segwit, which is the addresses that start with b c one.
818
01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:30.020
And
819
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:31.300
what
820
01:04:31.680 --> 01:04:50.920
the the devs have tried to do is make sure that we use a different derivation part for the keys for each one of these different script types. And that's just good kind of practice to keep things apart. You know, you don't wanna kind of reuse the same the same keys over and over. So that's kind of the the the sort of thinking. The thinking is sound behind it. And as I say,
821
01:04:51.460 --> 01:05:00.735
you know, we've we've come far enough down the road now that everyone's using the same pause for the same script script types. I I I really haven't seen a word that deviates
822
01:05:01.195 --> 01:05:02.975
from from that because it's it's
823
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:09.900
perceived as a very poor kind of thing thing thing thing to do for the obvious reason that it puts user funds at risk.
824
01:05:10.665 --> 01:05:19.325
825
01:05:19.710 --> 01:05:22.850
derivation path they want for their specific wallet.
826
01:05:23.390 --> 01:05:26.290
And unless you specifically write that down,
827
01:05:26.805 --> 01:05:32.984
then you may not be able to restore your funds. So, I'm really, I really appreciate you clearing that up because
828
01:05:33.285 --> 01:05:36.265
it seems much more like a non issue to me now,
829
01:05:36.740 --> 01:05:38.760
than it did at the beginning of this conversation.
830
01:05:40.580 --> 01:05:45.160
831
01:05:45.835 --> 01:05:49.454
from from using a derivation or or using, yeah,
832
01:05:49.994 --> 01:06:09.875
a derivation part that matches the derivation part for another script script type. In other words, not the one that you're using. So it's really hard to mess that stuff stuff up. Most most wallets, you know, just say this is what it is based on the script type that you've chosen. Most some of them don't even allow you to choose the script type.
833
01:06:10.255 --> 01:06:12.080
You know, it's it's just not,
834
01:06:13.040 --> 01:06:18.420
it's not sort of this user configurable thing that it might have been 2, 3 years years back.
835
01:06:19.200 --> 01:06:19.700
836
01:06:25.224 --> 01:06:29.805
837
01:06:30.210 --> 01:06:31.650
Iko, feel free to,
838
01:06:32.609 --> 01:06:42.005
this is the first time we got our boy, Craig, on on on air, so feel free to hit him with questions. That's why I brought you on is because I think you could ask them some good questions.
839
01:06:43.025 --> 01:06:45.685
Awesome. And just just keep up keep up with that.
840
01:06:46.305 --> 01:06:46.805
841
01:06:49.550 --> 01:06:50.450
842
01:06:52.990 --> 01:07:01.955
wait, like, where do we where do we wanna go from here? I've, Freaks, first of all, remember, you just throw things into the into the live chat, and we will try and hit them,
843
01:07:02.415 --> 01:07:03.555
as much as possible.
844
01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:05.100
6102
845
01:07:05.560 --> 01:07:13.580
mentioned that that thing I was mentioning by Luke Childs has been merged directly into Electronet plug in, so I think it's just in there now. And you can just,
846
01:07:14.515 --> 01:07:17.735
it'll just automatically scan the known derivation paths.
847
01:07:18.595 --> 01:07:26.660
I mean, just to recap, I I think the main issue is just with, like, random ass small wallets. Like, people don't realize, like, if you open iPhone or Android,
848
01:07:27.280 --> 01:07:30.500
and type in Bitcoin Wallet into their their app stores,
849
01:07:32.015 --> 01:07:34.275
there's a lot of shit. It's mostly shit.
850
01:07:36.575 --> 01:07:38.194
851
01:07:38.575 --> 01:07:40.355
dude. It is mostly shit.
852
01:07:42.670 --> 01:07:45.410
853
01:07:46.750 --> 01:07:47.250
Yeah?
854
01:07:47.550 --> 01:07:48.290
Hit us.
855
01:07:49.055 --> 01:07:52.195
856
01:07:52.575 --> 01:08:09.135
857
01:08:09.595 --> 01:08:12.370
those are the first ones I tried out. I'm using them because
858
01:08:13.010 --> 01:08:18.870
I went through a lot of trial and error, and they're the best wallets out there for for what I'm trying to do.
859
01:08:20.855 --> 01:08:30.989
And and same thing with Sparrow. Like, I, you know, I haven't done a lot with desktop wallets. I've got Bitcoin Core, but I've never, like, funded the wallet on Bitcoin Core. I just use it with my node.
860
01:08:32.090 --> 01:08:33.950
But I'm working on this guide
861
01:08:35.185 --> 01:08:35.685
for
862
01:08:36.065 --> 01:08:37.045
Kevan Devani,
863
01:08:37.745 --> 01:08:38.245
and
864
01:08:38.705 --> 01:08:42.245
and I'm gonna go through, like, for total beginners, how to
865
01:08:43.120 --> 01:08:45.220
download, install, and secure,
866
01:08:46.080 --> 01:08:53.115
Samura wallet on an Android, a blue wallet on an iPhone, and I needed a desktop wallet. And I checked out Sparrow,
867
01:08:53.655 --> 01:08:56.055
and I'm really glad that I did because it's an amazing
868
01:08:57.095 --> 01:08:58.555
you you built a beautiful
869
01:08:58.900 --> 01:09:02.199
wallet there, Craig, and, and I'm really excited to
870
01:09:02.500 --> 01:09:04.199
go through the details for everybody
871
01:09:04.980 --> 01:09:07.320
and and show them how to do it step by step.
872
01:09:07.925 --> 01:09:10.345
873
01:09:10.965 --> 01:09:11.465
874
01:09:15.080 --> 01:09:16.940
875
01:09:17.480 --> 01:09:23.420
Yeah. I mean, one way we could take this if if you're keen is to kind of go into some more,
876
01:09:24.120 --> 01:09:27.505
more of more thoughts around cold storage storage.
877
01:09:29.005 --> 01:09:31.665
I've got a few there that might might be a bit
878
01:09:34.700 --> 01:09:36.160
controversial, but Yeah.
879
01:09:37.100 --> 01:09:41.200
If if you're keen to head down that that that path.
880
01:09:42.205 --> 01:09:42.945
881
01:09:43.645 --> 01:09:50.465
Craig, I the reason I created Citadel dispatch is because there's not enough actionable Bitcoin discussion. I wanna talk about things
882
01:09:50.790 --> 01:09:54.330
that Bitcoiners can be, you know, listening to every Tuesday
883
01:09:54.790 --> 01:09:55.770
from their citadels,
884
01:09:56.310 --> 01:09:59.690
and they're like, okay. This is things I can do. These are things I can consider.
885
01:10:00.585 --> 01:10:02.045
Actionable. Not philosophy,
886
01:10:02.905 --> 01:10:03.885
all this bullshit.
887
01:10:04.665 --> 01:10:06.605
We all think the number's gonna go up.
888
01:10:07.465 --> 01:10:17.395
I I do it it's am I hypocritical for putting the price there? No. It's kinda cool that in hindsight, when I when I spool all these together, it's gonna have the price just constantly showing there,
889
01:10:17.875 --> 01:10:20.215
and I need to have something there, so fuck you.
890
01:10:21.635 --> 01:10:31.230
One thing I wanna start with before we dive into here, and I think this is a great idea. So what I wanna do is I like this as a model. We're gonna have Craig. We're gonna go down this hole with Craig.
891
01:10:32.090 --> 01:10:35.710
We're gonna have me asking him questions as someone who's, like, slightly,
892
01:10:36.105 --> 01:10:36.765
you know, slightly,
893
01:10:38.745 --> 01:10:43.725
less technical than Craig asking questions, and we're gonna have Iko asking questions as as more of a,
894
01:10:44.940 --> 01:10:47.679
you know, someone someone who's who's more sophisticated,
895
01:10:47.980 --> 01:10:54.275
but but but not you know, we have 3 different levels here. I don't need to break it down further than that. Privacy,
896
01:10:54.735 --> 01:11:03.235
so so, Iko, I need you to just jump in here, like, I got lag, so just jump in here whenever whenever you feel a pressing question. I want you to just hit him with the question. Your perspective matters.
897
01:11:03.920 --> 01:11:05.139
I wanna start with
898
01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:07.219
someone in the chat said,
899
01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:08.739
I am KYC'd.
900
01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:15.315
I am doxxed. I people know I own Bitcoin. My government knows I own Bitcoin. All these different people know I own Bitcoin.
901
01:11:15.775 --> 01:11:23.440
Is what there is no there he said there's no, you know, negative privacy reason for me to trust a company like Unchained or Casa
902
01:11:23.740 --> 01:11:27.520
in a host and multisig setup. Craig, what do you say to that person?
903
01:11:30.665 --> 01:11:31.325
904
01:11:39.400 --> 01:11:47.685
Yeah. I mean, I I guess, you know, I haven't done the research on Unchained, but I have no reason to believe that they're not using the best in class.
905
01:11:48.864 --> 01:11:56.160
You know, if if you are fully doxed, then and and you think that that's a way for you to secure things,
906
01:11:57.740 --> 01:12:03.365
and and you really appreciate the kind of assistance that they can provide, which I'm sure is excellent,
907
01:12:03.905 --> 01:12:06.645
then I think it's a very valid path to go.
908
01:12:07.025 --> 01:12:17.505
You know, it's it's pretty unfortunate that you're in the position that, you know, people know your balance and all of those sort of sort of things. It definitely puts you at higher higher risk.
909
01:12:19.105 --> 01:12:24.145
But if you are there, then I can't see a strong reason not to go down that path.
910
01:12:24.545 --> 01:12:28.710
You know, yes. Sure. You'll further dox yourself self to them, but
911
01:12:29.090 --> 01:12:32.310
it doesn't really matter at this point, if that is the case.
912
01:12:34.210 --> 01:12:35.090
913
01:12:45.150 --> 01:12:49.890
I like I think the product is a it's a good product. They have an open source, fully open source caravan,
914
01:12:51.230 --> 01:12:55.010
and then they hold one key. So they created an open source stack so you can,
915
01:12:55.585 --> 01:13:01.765
easily remove it without trusting them. I do think they are best in class. You are trusting them with your privacy.
916
01:13:02.600 --> 01:13:05.020
Just just to explain, best in class, I mean, Casa's
917
01:13:05.480 --> 01:13:10.060
app is closed source. So you're looking at your receiving addresses on a closed source app.
918
01:13:11.525 --> 01:13:21.880
With with the the easiest way to verify a Casa multisig is with Caravan, which is Unchained's open source stack. I mean, I you could also use Sparo to do it. But, anyway, I digress.
919
01:13:22.180 --> 01:13:24.360
The main concern is, to me,
920
01:13:24.900 --> 01:13:25.400
is
921
01:13:26.739 --> 01:13:27.480
if if
922
01:13:27.860 --> 01:13:30.040
if the goal is ultimately security,
923
01:13:30.455 --> 01:13:33.034
specifically physical security, I completely understand
924
01:13:33.655 --> 01:13:34.474
you're using
925
01:13:35.094 --> 01:13:36.315
a hosted multisync.
926
01:13:37.640 --> 01:13:45.020
Like Craig said earlier, geographical separation of keys is is super important when you're talking about, like, home invasion type threat models.
927
01:13:45.735 --> 01:13:49.594
And they will hold your hand the whole fucking process. If you're a corporation
928
01:13:50.375 --> 01:13:56.030
and, you know, you're you're like a Michael Sailor and you're keeping it one of these these massive regulated custodians,
929
01:13:56.650 --> 01:13:58.430
Unchained will do that for you instead.
930
01:13:59.130 --> 01:14:13.810
And then that way, you have a you have the the full quorum of keys yourself. You don't have to trust them with custody, but they hold one key. They can correspond with the audits and all these different things you want them to do. So there's there's definitely a value there if someone who wants to trust them with their privacy.
931
01:14:14.770 --> 01:14:15.270
Now
932
01:14:15.890 --> 01:14:22.630
if you are if your attempt is to be like a sovereign Bitcoin user and you're KYC'd and docs, I I don't want people to think,
933
01:14:23.545 --> 01:14:27.005
like, the the enemy of of of good is perfect,
934
01:14:27.625 --> 01:14:31.485
and that goes with privacy as well. And this idea that, like,
935
01:14:31.850 --> 01:14:34.030
there's a 1000000 different reasons in this
936
01:14:34.330 --> 01:14:52.159
today's age where you can say, like, my privacy is fucked. It doesn't matter anymore. I have a Facebook. I have an Alexa in my kitchen. Get rid of Alexa. Like, you shouldn't have one there. But I have an Alexa in my kitchen. I have a passport. Like, there's cameras every day when I go to work and they see me. And I walk out of my condo, and there's cameras in my face. And there's all different reasons
937
01:14:52.699 --> 01:14:54.000
that you can come up with,
938
01:14:54.540 --> 01:14:56.719
to say, like, my privacy is already fucked.
939
01:14:57.075 --> 01:14:59.735
Like, it doesn't matter. But that's not the case. Privacy
940
01:15:00.035 --> 01:15:07.000
is on a scale. There it's it's not black and white, and and you can improve different things. And if you're already fully doxed and whatnot,
941
01:15:08.740 --> 01:15:12.520
and and and your all your keys are KYC, you can still go through Whirlpool.
942
01:15:12.895 --> 01:15:23.840
You can still hold your keys going forward and have, you know, forward privacy and and try and improve your forward privacy. Like, is is it is it a 100% perfect? No. But but you can improve your situation,
943
01:15:25.340 --> 01:15:32.000
and and it's important to realize that I do think that all these hosts and multisig providers are gonna be compelled to hand over all this information,
944
01:15:33.005 --> 01:15:36.785
to the major governments. So you you should operate under the assumption
945
01:15:37.165 --> 01:15:41.985
that at some time in the future, all this information is gonna end up in a central database somewhere.
946
01:15:42.590 --> 01:15:45.570
And I'm not saying they're not gonna fight it. They're gonna try and fight it,
947
01:15:45.949 --> 01:15:51.010
but it's gonna end up there eventually at some point. And you have to at least operate under that assumption.
948
01:15:51.585 --> 01:16:06.960
And, the information I have to back that up is that Coinbase was compelled to hand over this information as well. They weren't compelled to hand over coins. They they didn't the government didn't say to them, you know, you have to hand over your customers' coins. They said, we want we want complete transaction history of these users.
949
01:16:07.285 --> 01:16:13.385
And Coinbase thought it back and they said, okay, we just need the users that were over $20 worth, but they still got all the users.
950
01:16:15.180 --> 01:16:16.320
951
01:16:18.940 --> 01:16:25.415
952
01:16:26.594 --> 01:16:29.255
reclaiming some of your privacy ground? Like,
953
01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:31.580
yeah, you might be doxxed, but,
954
01:16:32.360 --> 01:16:36.700
like, you you can take steps to start undoing that and start improving
955
01:16:37.315 --> 01:16:43.014
your privacy. You can start building a non KYC stack and keeping it completely segregated.
956
01:16:43.795 --> 01:16:44.295
And
957
01:16:46.250 --> 01:16:46.990
I just
958
01:16:47.610 --> 01:16:52.110
you're just taking on so much more risk when when you have your identity associated
959
01:16:52.765 --> 01:16:56.225
with your Bitcoin. And it it's not just physical attacks, but,
960
01:16:56.925 --> 01:17:09.929
you know, if if the US government thinks that their sovereignty is threatened, they are not going to stop at anything to isolate that threat. And if they perceive Bitcoin to be that threat or people who are self custodying Bitcoin,
961
01:17:10.265 --> 01:17:18.525
there's no length at which they will not go to try and get that from you. And so long as your identity is a is tied to that Bitcoin,
962
01:17:20.030 --> 01:17:21.890
you're you're a potential target.
963
01:17:22.510 --> 01:17:28.975
And I I think the world is crazy enough today that that's that's a a reasonable threat to be thinking about.
964
01:17:35.020 --> 01:17:37.920
965
01:17:38.220 --> 01:17:49.945
maybe you think that's a foreign threat, but but there's plenty of governments around the world where I think even, I think Americans would a 100% say that, of course, they should be worried about their government finding out.
966
01:17:51.295 --> 01:17:51.795
And
967
01:17:52.350 --> 01:18:14.770
and that could easily happen here, and there's other there's people that live in other countries that, you know and we don't want other governments to know either. Like, I don't want China to know my my transaction history. And, like, people say to me, they're, like, oh, but, like, America is, like, they do drone strikes and stuff. Like, I know. Like, when I say I don't want China to know, I'm trying to hit a different demographic that maybe a 100% trust America even though they shouldn't.
968
01:18:15.470 --> 01:18:23.025
China I don't want China to know my fucking transaction history. In a world where American citizens aren't allowed to practice privacy best practices
969
01:18:23.405 --> 01:18:30.530
and use CoinJoin and use encryption is a world where China has your full message history and has your full financial transaction history.
970
01:18:31.070 --> 01:18:45.574
If you wanna go even less than that, I mean, your boss shouldn't know what you're spending your salary on, and your bodega owner or the the person owning the store that you bought the sandwich at shouldn't know how much you made as your salary. Like, these are basic financial privacy,
971
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:47.180
necessities,
972
01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:50.540
that I think most people agree to when when when
973
01:18:51.000 --> 01:18:52.620
you start to explain the implications.
974
01:18:53.800 --> 01:18:54.300
Craig,
975
01:18:54.935 --> 01:19:01.995
let's go down this fucking rabbit hole, man. This is why I had you on the podcast. This is let's fucking go. I I I've been looking forward to this for a while.
976
01:19:03.200 --> 01:19:04.500
977
01:19:05.280 --> 01:19:08.160
I wanna cover, like, 3 main points here,
978
01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:11.300
which yeah. Let's just dive in.
979
01:19:12.045 --> 01:19:13.745
All of the previous things
980
01:19:14.205 --> 01:19:25.530
that were said before about, you know, if you're a beginner and you've got your coins off the exchange, you're doing doing great. Those all still apply. So this is more the sort of advanced level stuff. So let's get into it.
981
01:19:26.550 --> 01:19:30.325
The the the first one I wanna cover, which I have discussed,
982
01:19:31.265 --> 01:19:32.165
somewhat on
983
01:19:32.945 --> 01:19:38.005
Twitter, is the idea well, not not the idea, but rather the fact that when you
984
01:19:38.830 --> 01:19:48.545
use Bitcoin Core as your wallet. So in other words, you're connecting directly to Bitcoin Core with whatever wallet software you use, whether it's Specter or Sparrow,
985
01:19:48.925 --> 01:19:54.945
you are using the Bitcoin Core Wallet on an in case, a sort of sort of internal level.
986
01:19:55.920 --> 01:20:00.020
And one of the the the kind of unavoidable facts about that wallet
987
01:20:00.400 --> 01:20:06.055
is that it stores all of your addresses, your balance, and everything in an unencrypted format.
988
01:20:07.155 --> 01:20:11.495
Now that's really that's not a sort of a design oversight. That's more
989
01:20:11.940 --> 01:20:13.240
a software architecture
990
01:20:13.620 --> 01:20:16.120
decision that they've kind of had to make. Because
991
01:20:16.580 --> 01:20:23.595
if you think about what Bitcoin Core mainly is is it's this piece of software that connects to other other nodes,
992
01:20:24.055 --> 01:20:24.555
downloads,
993
01:20:25.015 --> 01:20:28.315
you know, new blocks, and tries to determine,
994
01:20:29.020 --> 01:20:34.320
you know, the the consensus between between these these blocks. That's its main purpose.
995
01:20:34.699 --> 01:20:37.525
The wallet is a required feature,
996
01:20:38.945 --> 01:20:41.685
at least it was when the first version came out.
997
01:20:42.625 --> 01:20:58.285
And how it sort of works is every time a new block comes in, what the wallet's part of the soft software does is it goes and has a look at that block and says, are there any transactions in in this that apply to me? And if they are, then it stores those in your wallet dot dap file.
998
01:20:58.825 --> 01:21:04.525
So just the sort of nature of the way that it works means that it has to operate in this un
999
01:21:11.770 --> 01:21:14.855
net. And and that's that's almost like these 2
1000
01:21:15.395 --> 01:21:26.909
these 2 opposing forces. Right? On the one hand, you need to keep your Bitcoin code, your Bitcoin core node synced, and on the other hand, you need to try and keep your wallet, or at least your cold storage wallet offline
1001
01:21:27.395 --> 01:21:30.135
as much as you can. Right? And and those are 2
1002
01:21:30.435 --> 01:21:33.574
opposing forces, and it's the the only way to really,
1003
01:21:34.114 --> 01:21:36.375
in my view, solve solve this well
1004
01:21:37.070 --> 01:21:44.530
is to break them apart. Right? To kind of not try and make it one thing that you run that tries to do these 2 things at once.
1005
01:21:45.175 --> 01:21:48.875
And and that's the sort of advantage of being able to use
1006
01:21:50.135 --> 01:21:51.515
a Electrum server,
1007
01:21:51.975 --> 01:22:00.610
which allows you to pay basically send a request in, get the results back, and then the server just forgets about it. It doesn't have to try
1008
01:22:00.910 --> 01:22:02.530
and say, you know,
1009
01:22:04.594 --> 01:22:15.830
what's going on? Can I store this information? Do I need to store a store a store it? The reason that an Electrum server can do it that way is because all of the transactions that are coming in, it just indexes.
1010
01:22:16.210 --> 01:22:23.545
So it can do a lookup really fast, whereas the Bitcoin core node doesn't have that. Right? And the Bitcoin core devs are not keen to add this.
1011
01:22:23.925 --> 01:22:40.485
So what you have is 2 different ways of working. 1 is this way of working where every new block that comes in, we need to analyze it, and we need to pull the information out of it if it applies to us. And the other way of working is every new block that comes in, we just index everything.
1012
01:22:41.425 --> 01:22:42.405
And as a result,
1013
01:22:43.425 --> 01:22:49.719
your transactions from your wallet just look the same as everyone else's. So those are 2 very different ways of doing things.
1014
01:22:50.340 --> 01:22:55.000
And as a result, you know, if we zoom out again, if you're using Bitcoin Core,
1015
01:22:55.525 --> 01:22:56.025
your
1016
01:22:56.485 --> 01:22:58.985
your whole wallet is sitting in an unencrypted
1017
01:22:59.365 --> 01:23:01.065
form on that node.
1018
01:23:01.365 --> 01:23:19.054
And I think most people are not really aware of this. And I think that if we're looking at the physical attack mod mod model, people coming into your your home, getting access to your PC, they can see whatever balance you have. So even, you know, that gives them a huge tool to be able to say, I want all of that. Right?
1019
01:23:19.740 --> 01:23:31.195
And it's it's really an easy thing to avoid. Right? You just have to find a different way of being able to address this, or at least I see it. That's that's sort of me as a as a dev kind of looking at it.
1020
01:23:32.295 --> 01:23:39.760
You know, being able to separate these two these two needs, one of the wallets and one of the node that needs to keep synced,
1021
01:23:40.539 --> 01:23:47.505
is for me a really important part of the reason why I wanted to build Sparrow in the first first place, was just be able to say,
1022
01:23:47.805 --> 01:23:49.905
you know what? I can keep my wallet,
1023
01:23:50.365 --> 01:24:11.885
my cold store storage wallet offline most of the time. I can only access that that thing when I absolutely want to, which might only be a few times times a year. But at the same time, I can keep my Bitcoin core node synced all the time. So I don't have to kind of get off my laptop, sync this thing for several days, and then eventually know what my balance
1024
01:24:12.310 --> 01:24:12.810
balance
1025
01:24:13.110 --> 01:24:16.650
is. So I don't not sure if I've described that well, Matt.
1026
01:24:17.350 --> 01:24:18.330
Does that sound
1027
01:24:19.785 --> 01:24:21.485
something that makes sense?
1028
01:24:22.425 --> 01:24:23.325
1029
01:24:23.865 --> 01:24:27.280
yes. I mean, first of all, I mean, you've described it already to me,
1030
01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:29.460
twice now. So,
1031
01:24:30.639 --> 01:24:36.420
so so I think I think it was explained well to the freaks. If the freaks disagree in the comments, you can let us know.
1032
01:24:37.205 --> 01:24:38.824
If if if Eco,
1033
01:24:39.685 --> 01:24:45.225
thinks you didn't describe it well, then we'll know through through him as well. But I just wanted to say here, I mean,
1034
01:24:46.330 --> 01:24:50.190
one of the cool things about Sparrow is that it gives you so many different fucking options,
1035
01:24:50.890 --> 01:24:58.235
and it tries to explain the options to you as you go through them, which is pretty cool that it can do it in, like, a UX friendly way,
1036
01:24:59.575 --> 01:25:05.870
that it, like, kind of it it, like, explains, like, okay, you're doing this, you're doing that. Like, do you wanna generate a Hot Wallet? Do you wanna do this?
1037
01:25:06.490 --> 01:25:09.550
You're able to back it up. Do you wanna add a passphrase? It's just, like, very
1038
01:25:09.955 --> 01:25:11.255
verbose, very clear.
1039
01:25:12.675 --> 01:25:14.855
But it has this watch only feature.
1040
01:25:15.555 --> 01:25:16.615
So, I mean, it
1041
01:25:17.370 --> 01:25:20.430
it that's exact what you just said is is
1042
01:25:20.890 --> 01:25:22.670
that if you use a watch only,
1043
01:25:22.970 --> 01:25:25.585
you know, the watch only feature in Sparrow,
1044
01:25:25.965 --> 01:25:29.745
you're susceptible to that as well, even if you use a separate Electrum server. Right?
1045
01:25:30.605 --> 01:25:36.659
1046
01:25:38.159 --> 01:25:43.380
new Spiro release that's coming out just this week, I think, will make it clearer. I was just redoing the whole sort of
1047
01:25:43.705 --> 01:26:03.255
welcome screen today. So, basically, I see it, you know, in terms of the Sparrow world, you can connect in 1 of 3 different ways. You can connect to a public server, right, which obviously means you docks all of your transaction data to that serve serve server. Now what I've I've done is I've picked a few servers that are run by by people
1048
01:26:03.715 --> 01:26:06.455
like Luke Childs who, you know, I think
1049
01:26:07.075 --> 01:26:17.510
you can, to some degree, trust. I'm not saying you should, but, you know, they're not just some random server that, you know, some chain out of Alice's comp company has
1050
01:26:17.985 --> 01:26:20.485
spun up and has joined the peer to peer to
1051
01:26:20.945 --> 01:26:25.445
peer network. Right? So that's the one way. Connect to a I didn't realize you did that.
1052
01:26:26.170 --> 01:26:31.070
It it it's not a lot of 5 years. Yeah. So that that's what's kind of that idea.
1053
01:26:31.690 --> 01:26:34.885
Cool. Cool. So Sorry. Continue. That's the kind of
1054
01:26:45.030 --> 01:26:46.250
just just sort of mentioned.
1055
01:26:46.710 --> 01:26:55.395
But let's let's be honest, you know, just getting to the state of running a Bitcoin core node isn't the easiest thing for many people. So just having done that, you're doing well.
1056
01:26:55.695 --> 01:27:08.800
You know, it's a big step up step up. Now none of your transactions are leaving anywhere. Right? It's all staying there. Your own node is validating everything. That's a really good place to be. It's just got the one downside
1057
01:27:09.500 --> 01:27:30.845
of having your wallet stored in this unencrypted format on the node. Right? So that's that's the second way of doing doing things. And then the the the third way, which is the most private way, is to run your own private Electron server. And that's what Matt was saying wasn't the easiest thing. And it's true. It's not the easiest thing. But with these modern node packages like Umbrel,
1058
01:27:31.225 --> 01:27:42.570
it's really not that hard anymore. And I I I kinda wanna push back a little bit on on that. I think it was hard, but, I mean, the number of people I'm seeing on Twitter every day with sort of Umbrel, you know,
1059
01:27:43.030 --> 01:27:46.810
and and various things, you know, it's it's getting it's getting a lot easier.
1060
01:27:47.565 --> 01:27:54.305
1061
01:27:54.940 --> 01:27:56.880
okay. Electrum is the best thing,
1062
01:27:57.260 --> 01:28:05.355
but it's just not there. It's just too complicated, and and Electrum personal server is too complicated. And 2 things happened that we had
1063
01:28:05.895 --> 01:28:09.435
we had, you know, you created Sparrow, we had Caravan, Nunchuk,
1064
01:28:10.215 --> 01:28:34.600
Specter created. And then on the opposite side, we had this blossoming of of node packages that made it easy to run your own Electrum server. Right? We had to comment it, like, both happened because of the same it was like this there was this group realization 2 years ago, and we were like, fuck. Like, this needs to improve. And over the last 2 years, it's just crazy. Like, you look at it. I mean, you mentioned Get Umbral. I mean, we have Keto we have Keto in,
1065
01:28:35.895 --> 01:28:41.835
we have Keto in the chat right now. He has Nodl, which is which is a prebuilt, you know, a prebuilt,
1066
01:28:42.375 --> 01:28:43.355
your own node,
1067
01:28:44.030 --> 01:28:45.010
highly performant.
1068
01:28:45.630 --> 01:28:48.930
We have our own in Dojo. We have MyNode. We have RaspiBlitz.
1069
01:28:49.630 --> 01:28:56.704
Like, there's just all these packages that make it easy to to run your own node and run your own Electrum personal server, and it all kinda happened
1070
01:28:57.405 --> 01:29:20.210
over the same this bear markets are when things get done. People, like, oh, all caps Odell, like, do you not care about are you not in for the tech? You only care about the price and stuff. It's like, no. I'm trying to get through the bull market noise, and I'm, like, gonna attract people with some price, you know. Some people are gonna stumble on this little dispatch because they see the price ticker going on. They might stumble in because I'd say, you know, Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, which it is,
1071
01:29:20.610 --> 01:29:27.989
and, I'm gonna make them listen to the custodial talk. I'm gonna make them listen to the privacy talk. I'm gonna make them listen to the KYC talk,
1072
01:29:28.785 --> 01:29:42.560
and and this is how you get through in bull markets, but let's let's not pretend that bull markets are gonna be as productive as bear markets. Bear markets are when shit gets done. The bull cycles are, like, kinda when we watch this shit happen that we that we kinda expected, but it just, like, blew,
1073
01:29:42.940 --> 01:29:44.945
you know, blew up farther than we could think.
1074
01:29:45.505 --> 01:29:46.704
But I I just want to
1075
01:29:47.824 --> 01:29:49.685
I mean, at the end of the day,
1076
01:29:50.145 --> 01:29:54.565
I I do agree that this is a threat, and this is what you initially mentioned to me.
1077
01:29:55.620 --> 01:29:57.560
But at the end of the day, like in practice,
1078
01:29:57.940 --> 01:30:03.640
like the average person, whether they're using Electrum personal server or not Electrum server or not,
1079
01:30:04.175 --> 01:30:06.995
Like, they're gonna have a computer that they have dedicated
1080
01:30:07.535 --> 01:30:12.260
if if for convenience sake, they're probably gonna have a computer that's dedicated to holding their public keys,
1081
01:30:12.659 --> 01:30:19.480
Whether that's core holding transaction like, actual transaction data along with it, or whether that's Sparrow holding an XPUB.
1082
01:30:20.985 --> 01:30:23.725
They're gonna have a computer that's hopefully air gapped
1083
01:30:24.025 --> 01:30:29.280
that is gonna, you know, that is gonna be holding their public keys for them. And
1084
01:30:32.059 --> 01:30:36.400
I I I get I guess Electrum makes that interface easier. Is that what you're saying?
1085
01:30:37.284 --> 01:30:44.344
1086
01:30:45.040 --> 01:30:47.700
You know, I've certainly done it before, but,
1087
01:30:48.240 --> 01:30:52.020
it's it's expensive. It's not the easiest thing.
1088
01:30:52.945 --> 01:30:58.165
I think that the most common way that people are gonna go is the sort of hot hot hardware
1089
01:30:58.625 --> 01:30:59.510
wallet route.
1090
01:31:00.389 --> 01:31:04.170
And I think, you know, if you can use, as I say, a different piece of software
1091
01:31:04.789 --> 01:31:08.809
apart from Bitcoin Core and apart you know, and and sort of just connect
1092
01:31:09.385 --> 01:31:11.405
to your your
1093
01:31:12.345 --> 01:31:13.165
your Electrom's
1094
01:31:13.465 --> 01:31:50.304
serve server server. Now as as I was saying, the one real big advantage of that is that thing just indexes everything. So it doesn't need to store details of your wallet. So every you know, however often you wanna check your cold store storage, which shouldn't be often. Right? It should be, like, a few times a year, maybe once a month. Who knows? But, no, it's it's not something that you're gonna be doing every day. You wanna try and keep that cold storage wallet offline as much as you can. So then you can fire up Sparrow. You can load the wallet for the time that you require it. You can get your balance down. The server forgets that you asked for it. That's the way it's designed.
1095
01:31:50.740 --> 01:31:54.440
And you're not storing anything in anywhere. So it's really only present,
1096
01:31:55.060 --> 01:32:13.730
you know, on the encrypted file, the Sparrow wallet file, and in the RAM of your computer for the time that you have that wallet open. And that's really the time that you're trying to minimize, right, the the the time that that wallet is open for. You don't want that wallet to be sort of sitting around in an unencrypted form,
1097
01:32:14.915 --> 01:32:18.855
for a long period of time. That that's at least what I'm trying to do.
1098
01:32:19.475 --> 01:32:25.880
1099
01:32:26.420 --> 01:32:33.755
then it's encrypted. But if you have if you have your XPUB in core, it's all the transaction data is unencrypted sitting there.
1100
01:32:34.375 --> 01:32:40.715
1101
01:32:41.160 --> 01:32:44.540
dedicated air gap computer with an encrypted hard drive.
1102
01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:46.860
And then you open that thing up,
1103
01:32:47.320 --> 01:32:57.220
like, a few times a year, and you're gonna have to sync it, which will take a while. So that increases your risk because you're now sitting waiting for the thing to sync. It's not gonna take that long, though. Right?
1104
01:32:58.420 --> 01:33:01.880
I don't know. It depends. Like, my old Mac MacBook Pro,
1105
01:33:02.260 --> 01:33:05.855
I I was trying to sync 12 days today, and it took 6 hours.
1106
01:33:06.235 --> 01:33:13.920
So, it, it takes a little while. You know, to check your balance shouldn't take you more than, you know, 10 minutes to send send a transact transaction.
1107
01:33:15.360 --> 01:33:16.260
Timed out.
1108
01:33:18.880 --> 01:33:20.580
1109
01:33:21.175 --> 01:33:22.155
Yes, please.
1110
01:33:22.935 --> 01:33:23.435
1111
01:33:24.055 --> 01:33:26.715
Craig, I really like the idea of separating
1112
01:33:27.815 --> 01:33:30.075
the Bitcoin Core Wallet from
1113
01:33:30.890 --> 01:33:34.030
the node that's, like, checking transactions on the network.
1114
01:33:34.490 --> 01:33:36.830
And the and the reason I say that is because
1115
01:33:37.290 --> 01:33:38.510
when I built my
1116
01:33:39.025 --> 01:33:42.005
Bitcoin Core node on a Raspberry Pi,
1117
01:33:43.265 --> 01:33:44.965
I I was just arbitrarily,
1118
01:33:45.585 --> 01:33:49.770
like, entering code that I was finding in multiple places on the Internet.
1119
01:33:50.150 --> 01:33:54.810
I had no idea what I was doing. Finding good instructions to build a node was
1120
01:33:55.245 --> 01:33:56.225
was pretty difficult.
1121
01:33:56.685 --> 01:33:58.465
I'm not a coder. I'm not a developer.
1122
01:33:58.765 --> 01:34:07.570
So I felt once I got it up and running, I felt really uncomfortable with the idea of putting any funds in that wallet. I like the idea of having a node
1123
01:34:07.949 --> 01:34:11.090
that was operating and keeping my own copy of the blockchain
1124
01:34:11.550 --> 01:34:20.195
to check transactions against. But I really didn't like the idea of having funds on it because I didn't know what I had just typed into the computer to make this thing work.
1125
01:34:22.070 --> 01:34:22.630
And it
1126
01:34:23.190 --> 01:34:24.090
if I understand
1127
01:34:24.470 --> 01:34:25.290
you correctly,
1128
01:34:26.150 --> 01:34:30.565
you're saying, like, if I use my Bitcoin core node to back up Sparrow,
1129
01:34:31.185 --> 01:34:31.685
then
1130
01:34:32.545 --> 01:34:35.445
the transactions done in my Sparrow wallet are
1131
01:34:35.905 --> 01:34:38.885
being stored on the Bitcoin core
1132
01:34:39.530 --> 01:34:41.230
wallet dot dot file unencrypted.
1133
01:34:41.929 --> 01:34:49.025
1134
01:34:49.505 --> 01:35:10.284
But, actually, like, what all the freaks should do is just open that wallet dot dap file in a text text editor. Like, prove it for yourself. Don't trust what I'm saying. Go and have a look. And you'll see there's a whole lot of binary in there. So it's not the easiest thing thing to read. But I guarantee you, you'll see your sort of addresses mixed in with all all of that. And and that's just the way that it's built. Right?
1135
01:35:11.244 --> 01:35:11.565
There's
1136
01:35:12.045 --> 01:35:20.969
as I say, because of the fact that it needs to be online, it needs to check for every new new block, it doesn't really make sense for them to encrypt encrypt things because
1137
01:35:21.485 --> 01:35:25.664
they have to have it unencrypted all the time anyway, if that makes any sense.
1138
01:35:26.445 --> 01:35:32.630
1139
01:35:33.250 --> 01:35:38.985
1140
01:35:39.445 --> 01:35:47.900
that the Bitcoin core one needs to work the way it does is because it doesn't index everything. It tries for very good reasons to keep your disk space space down.
1141
01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:55.980
It doesn't index everything that comes in. Right? And the Bitcoin board devs are just not keen to build that feature in. So
1142
01:35:56.345 --> 01:35:57.645
that's the way that it is.
1143
01:35:58.105 --> 01:36:00.125
1144
01:36:00.585 --> 01:36:02.605
command you can put in the bitcoin.com
1145
01:36:03.385 --> 01:36:03.885
file.
1146
01:36:05.280 --> 01:36:13.220
I I if I recall correctly, it was, like, tx index equals true. And I I thought it was so that your node would be indexing everything.
1147
01:36:14.075 --> 01:36:20.335
1148
01:36:20.770 --> 01:36:33.425
any transaction on your node if you have the transaction ID. What it does not do okay. Well, what it does not do is allow you to look up the balance of your address. And that's what you actually need. So it's it's unfortunately
1149
01:36:33.805 --> 01:36:34.785
of no use
1150
01:36:35.325 --> 01:36:46.300
for a wallet. Like, a wallet can't really use use that in in the sense of saying, can I check my balance? Because you need to be able to look up the balance of an address, not the transaction
1151
01:36:46.760 --> 01:36:47.260
ID.
1152
01:36:47.685 --> 01:36:50.185
1153
01:36:50.725 --> 01:36:51.225
1154
01:36:56.820 --> 01:36:57.480
1155
01:36:58.500 --> 01:37:01.080
first of all, thank you both. That was awesome.
1156
01:37:02.875 --> 01:37:04.735
Let's get more of that. I I
1157
01:37:05.035 --> 01:37:10.175
I I I think, Craig, I mean, to answer your question, the reason there's not much concern placed to that is because
1158
01:37:11.369 --> 01:37:14.590
Bitcoin privacy is a fucking mess right now,
1159
01:37:15.050 --> 01:37:18.909
and, that's like the least of people's concerns in terms of privacy.
1160
01:37:21.574 --> 01:37:28.869
1161
01:37:29.969 --> 01:37:34.550
And that for me, you know, I guess this is being driven by my own fears.
1162
01:37:34.929 --> 01:37:47.280
I'm sort of thinking about this in my own own way, and and I was just thinking there's there's no way that I'm putting my pub keys uncript crypted on a machine which is constantly connected to the to the the
1163
01:37:47.739 --> 01:37:53.920
net. I mean, it's just it it doesn't make any sense to me as a dev. I've seen servers being hacked
1164
01:37:54.614 --> 01:37:56.394
many, many, many times. And,
1165
01:37:56.775 --> 01:38:11.370
you know, at at the very least, I want those to be, you know, offline for as as much of the time as I can have. Right? That's that for me is a key key goal goal here. So I hear what you're saying, and there's lots of areas to improve on,
1166
01:38:12.425 --> 01:38:15.085
but this for me is one that just seemed
1167
01:38:15.545 --> 01:38:16.364
kind of important.
1168
01:38:17.705 --> 01:38:19.485
1169
01:38:21.510 --> 01:38:27.610
A 100% agree. I think it's a a very good point. This is one of the reasons I wanted you on. I I've tried to
1170
01:38:28.614 --> 01:38:30.534
RHR, but you do it in a way
1171
01:38:31.735 --> 01:38:36.135
you you just you know, obviously, you're you're very passionate about this topic. I just
1172
01:38:36.860 --> 01:38:38.880
I I think that to me,
1173
01:38:39.740 --> 01:38:40.640
what, 95%
1174
01:38:41.020 --> 01:38:43.040
of users aren't using their own node,
1175
01:38:44.135 --> 01:38:47.995
whosever node they're using, they're doxing their transactions to. Right?
1176
01:38:48.855 --> 01:38:49.355
1177
01:38:51.095 --> 01:38:52.930
1178
01:38:53.390 --> 01:38:57.170
of or, like, 95% of people who come into the space are using KYC
1179
01:38:57.470 --> 01:38:57.970
services,
1180
01:38:59.230 --> 01:39:02.525
and then they're giving them their passport and their, like,
1181
01:39:03.465 --> 01:39:03.965
everything,
1182
01:39:04.585 --> 01:39:12.989
and then and their address that they're sent to, and they're they don't know how to use CoinJoin, and they they're getting scared out of it, and certain influencers might tell them it's likely illegal,
1183
01:39:14.330 --> 01:39:16.030
and that that they should use BlockFi.
1184
01:39:17.185 --> 01:39:20.085
And and so we end up in a situation where, like,
1185
01:39:20.784 --> 01:39:23.125
you know, I'm just I'm I I
1186
01:39:23.880 --> 01:39:25.660
I I I realized
1187
01:39:26.120 --> 01:39:26.620
that
1188
01:39:27.080 --> 01:39:28.620
the most effective way
1189
01:39:29.080 --> 01:39:29.580
to
1190
01:39:31.295 --> 01:39:32.915
motivate people is to
1191
01:39:33.455 --> 01:39:38.035
to stick to, like, a clear trajectory. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, it's almost like
1192
01:39:38.460 --> 01:39:39.360
like I get
1193
01:39:40.060 --> 01:39:50.045
I I I I but I I respect it. I understand it, and I I I agree that it that it it is it's a true concern. But I I would I would say I would also argue that,
1194
01:39:51.545 --> 01:39:57.005
until, like, 6 months ago, you couldn't even really use a hardware wallet with Bitcoin Core, let alone multisig,
1195
01:39:57.930 --> 01:39:59.550
for for the average user.
1196
01:40:00.330 --> 01:40:01.150
So maybe,
1197
01:40:01.770 --> 01:40:04.830
you know, maybe we're maybe there'll be improvements.
1198
01:40:06.815 --> 01:40:18.949
1199
01:40:19.250 --> 01:40:27.705
whatever setup you have now, if you've got your coins off the ex exchange, you're doing well. Like like, please do not take what I'm saying as
1200
01:40:28.085 --> 01:40:50.730
advice to go and make a dramatic change. Like, that's the last thing that I want. I I think it's just good that we talk about these these things because where else are we gonna gonna do it? Right? This is this is a good place to have a chat, but I I I don't wanna freak people out. It's just one of those things to be aware of and to think about. And if it worries you, do something about it. And if you're not too sort of concerned,
1201
01:40:51.030 --> 01:40:56.275
that's also fine. You know? It's all up to the individual user and how comfortable
1202
01:40:56.895 --> 01:40:57.875
they sort of are.
1203
01:40:58.655 --> 01:41:07.309
I think that the solutions we have out there are great, and they're getting better, but that doesn't mean that we can't talk about, you know, the sort of next next sort
1204
01:41:07.849 --> 01:41:08.909
of levels and steps.
1205
01:41:10.635 --> 01:41:15.375
1206
01:41:15.755 --> 01:41:23.559
This is the show that is not embarrassed to have people on multiple times, but just notice that we have people on for the first time they've ever been on a podcast,
1207
01:41:24.659 --> 01:41:27.480
and it's, you know, a fucking fantastic conversation.
1208
01:41:28.179 --> 01:41:38.695
Craig, you have us further down this rabbit hole? You wanna you have you we we hit your main point that you've you've hit me in the past with, and I I need to be a little bit more clear about it. I agree.
1209
01:41:39.270 --> 01:41:41.030
It it is it is a risk.
1210
01:41:41.430 --> 01:41:44.570
What let's go down. You you wanna keep going down this rabbit hole?
1211
01:41:44.950 --> 01:41:47.130
1212
01:41:47.875 --> 01:41:48.375
1213
01:41:49.475 --> 01:41:50.215
number 2.
1214
01:41:50.675 --> 01:41:54.035
So I'm gonna speak from a personal kind of,
1215
01:41:54.755 --> 01:41:56.455
experience here. When I
1216
01:41:56.870 --> 01:42:01.850
started building Sparrow back in the day, you know, my whole career has basically been building
1217
01:42:02.389 --> 01:42:03.610
web apps. Right?
1218
01:42:04.070 --> 01:42:07.515
That's the sort of default, and for very good reason. You know, they're an extremely
1219
01:42:08.055 --> 01:42:09.675
powerful way to get,
1220
01:42:11.095 --> 01:42:12.395
applications to people.
1221
01:42:12.935 --> 01:42:13.435
But
1222
01:42:14.350 --> 01:42:17.810
I just thought immediately, like, that's not the right software
1223
01:42:18.510 --> 01:42:19.010
architecture
1224
01:42:19.310 --> 01:42:21.730
for a wallet that I want to use,
1225
01:42:22.625 --> 01:42:25.605
at least part of the time as my cold storage wallet.
1226
01:42:26.545 --> 01:42:28.565
And why is that? Well, you know,
1227
01:42:29.550 --> 01:42:30.850
browsers are just these
1228
01:42:32.190 --> 01:42:38.370
amazing, but also incredibly complex things, you know, and let's be honest, their main purpose is to
1229
01:42:38.695 --> 01:42:40.315
gather all kinds of different
1230
01:42:40.855 --> 01:42:41.355
resources,
1231
01:42:42.135 --> 01:42:43.755
from around the net and
1232
01:42:44.055 --> 01:42:47.995
display them, you know. That's kind of almost about as far away from
1233
01:42:48.320 --> 01:42:50.340
what you want a cold wallet
1234
01:42:50.960 --> 01:42:52.420
to be, you know. It's,
1235
01:42:54.240 --> 01:42:55.140
it just seems
1236
01:42:55.565 --> 01:43:05.250
like a web browser is not the ideal thing, and and, you know, there's plenty of people that have written about, but but but this. It's it's
1237
01:43:05.950 --> 01:43:08.930
it's just strange to me that we are using,
1238
01:43:10.030 --> 01:43:11.730
wallets that are essentially
1239
01:43:12.350 --> 01:43:14.755
sitting in web browsers. And
1240
01:43:16.175 --> 01:43:18.514
I guess I'm just putting it out there because
1241
01:43:19.534 --> 01:43:21.875
maybe I'm completely nuts, but
1242
01:43:23.190 --> 01:43:24.730
I've talked to a few devs.
1243
01:43:25.270 --> 01:43:26.890
I was having a chat to
1244
01:43:27.830 --> 01:43:28.330
Nadav,
1245
01:43:28.790 --> 01:43:29.290
at
1246
01:43:29.765 --> 01:43:30.745
Cishek earlier
1247
01:43:31.205 --> 01:43:43.579
this this sort of week, and he kind of agrees. You know? He he's like, you know, if he he actually made the good point that if you look at how most web applications are made, they're made with JavaScript
1248
01:43:44.440 --> 01:43:48.380
that uses internally this kind of dev tool called NPM.
1249
01:43:49.075 --> 01:43:49.575
And
1250
01:43:50.115 --> 01:43:56.535
what NPM does is it just kind of the the sort of ecosystem uses up a whole lot of really small
1251
01:43:57.100 --> 01:43:57.600
little
1252
01:43:57.980 --> 01:44:00.320
projects or packages. And
1253
01:44:00.940 --> 01:44:09.435
the trouble with that approach is that it's just it becomes hard to sort of audit it. And we have seen, if you cast your mind back to 2018, we had that,
1254
01:44:10.535 --> 01:44:12.875
that dev who actually introduced
1255
01:44:13.335 --> 01:44:13.835
a,
1256
01:44:14.980 --> 01:44:16.360
basically, a Bitcoin
1257
01:44:17.380 --> 01:44:17.880
stealing
1258
01:44:18.980 --> 01:44:21.000
mechanism into one of the,
1259
01:44:21.699 --> 01:44:23.719
packages used by the co pay wallets.
1260
01:44:24.685 --> 01:44:31.825
So, you know, that's a little sort of dev aside side there, but I I just I just wonder about the browser thing,
1261
01:44:32.205 --> 01:44:33.425
and I like to
1262
01:44:33.790 --> 01:44:37.570
get your views. Matt, do do you do you think we should worry worry about it?
1263
01:44:38.270 --> 01:44:41.969
1264
01:44:42.345 --> 01:44:44.985
We don't mince words here, and we talk frank.
1265
01:44:45.305 --> 01:44:50.445
So so when when he talks about browser based, he means, Spectre is electron based.
1266
01:44:51.520 --> 01:44:53.940
Spectre basically runs in a web browser,
1267
01:44:54.800 --> 01:44:55.760
like a a
1268
01:44:56.160 --> 01:44:58.580
it it runs on the same engine of the browser.
1269
01:44:58.975 --> 01:45:01.395
It's its own little web browser instance.
1270
01:45:02.335 --> 01:45:07.155
And what is the main advantage of that? The main advantage of that is, is cross compatibility.
1271
01:45:08.300 --> 01:45:11.840
They can just easily make it so it it runs on many platforms.
1272
01:45:14.380 --> 01:45:17.120
First of all, Shisek is fucking a boss.
1273
01:45:19.895 --> 01:45:23.195
You know, I I love that dude. I I appreciate him,
1274
01:45:24.215 --> 01:45:30.520
and, I respect his opinion. But, yeah, obviously, it's it's a it's an issue. Right? And and I I think
1275
01:45:31.940 --> 01:45:43.665
I but I think we're in a situation but this is the thing. Right? And I said this to you, Craig. It's like Spyro caught me completely off guard. Like, you came out of nowhere. I don't even know who the fuck you are, and that's the coolest part,
1276
01:45:44.120 --> 01:45:47.340
because I love NIMS. This whole show was designed to pump NIMS.
1277
01:45:48.680 --> 01:45:52.700
But, like, you came out of nowhere with this beautifully designed native application
1278
01:45:53.375 --> 01:45:55.394
that is on multiple platforms,
1279
01:45:56.414 --> 01:46:00.835
that is both user friendly and and beautiful, but also super power
1280
01:46:01.200 --> 01:46:07.540
power user focused, and shows you everything you need to just to see, like, where the fuck did you come from?
1281
01:46:08.160 --> 01:46:12.725
But but but we didn't really have an easy way to interact with Bitcoin Core
1282
01:46:13.265 --> 01:46:15.605
and and multisig hardware wallets,
1283
01:46:16.390 --> 01:46:20.010
and and bring your own signers, and they made it super user friendly.
1284
01:46:21.430 --> 01:46:24.330
And and and I would say from a security point of view,
1285
01:46:24.955 --> 01:46:30.955
if we have these standards on the hardware wallets and you're verifying it, and and to be clear, my guide,
1286
01:46:31.355 --> 01:46:32.735
that I've that I've
1287
01:46:33.590 --> 01:46:36.090
the the main guide that I talk to people about
1288
01:46:36.630 --> 01:46:41.850
is single is we run bitcoin.com. It's single sig cold card with Spectre and core.
1289
01:46:43.065 --> 01:46:45.805
You're verifying everything on the cold card.
1290
01:46:46.265 --> 01:46:51.645
Right? So the trust in the actual software is a privacy trust.
1291
01:46:52.350 --> 01:46:54.530
It's not a security trust because
1292
01:46:55.150 --> 01:46:58.450
because the cold card is acting as a second factor there. Right?
1293
01:47:00.494 --> 01:47:13.880
1294
01:47:14.500 --> 01:47:20.525
you know, dismissed the chance of losing your funds unless you screw it screw it screw it up. Right? I think that's
1295
01:47:21.245 --> 01:47:24.225
but, you know, from a privacy point of point of view,
1296
01:47:25.540 --> 01:47:28.599
we do need to try and reduce the attacks surface
1297
01:47:28.980 --> 01:47:31.719
surface as much as we can. You know, one can never do
1298
01:47:32.364 --> 01:47:38.145
enough there, but you can you can think about things, and you can try and and kind of approach it from,
1299
01:47:38.925 --> 01:47:40.145
a method that
1300
01:47:40.860 --> 01:47:43.920
doesn't make it too hard to use, but at the same same time,
1301
01:47:44.300 --> 01:47:45.600
kind of, uses
1302
01:47:45.980 --> 01:47:52.315
the kind of tech that leads to the lowest attack surface. That's the way that I like to think about pilot pilot.
1303
01:47:53.014 --> 01:47:58.155
I see there's a comment there, web browser engine is not equal to a web web browser. That is true.
1304
01:47:59.190 --> 01:48:05.690
So the Electron platform is built off Chromium, which is the same thing that powers Google Chrome and Edge and other browsers.
1305
01:48:06.070 --> 01:48:07.850
If you go and have a look at
1306
01:48:08.235 --> 01:48:09.775
at the sort of commit log,
1307
01:48:10.075 --> 01:48:16.415
on that, there's a commit about every 10 to 15 minutes. I mean, it is an amazing open source project,
1308
01:48:16.715 --> 01:48:17.470
it really is,
1309
01:48:18.350 --> 01:48:20.450
and it drives so much of the world. But
1310
01:48:20.830 --> 01:48:27.365
it's just incredibly busy, and if you just think about all the things that it can do, that Chromium,
1311
01:48:28.145 --> 01:48:29.445
sort of engine,
1312
01:48:29.985 --> 01:48:32.085
I think it is a very complex
1313
01:48:33.105 --> 01:48:33.605
thing.
1314
01:48:36.079 --> 01:48:38.260
I'm I'm not comfortable myself
1315
01:48:38.880 --> 01:48:41.039
with the complex plexity there.
1316
01:48:41.840 --> 01:48:51.685
So I I kind of wanted to raise it because it feels to me like we need to talk about it at least a bit. Certainly, the devs that I've spoke spoke spoken to
1317
01:48:52.705 --> 01:48:54.085
tend to to agree.
1318
01:48:55.380 --> 01:48:56.200
So yeah.
1319
01:48:57.940 --> 01:48:59.000
1320
01:49:01.300 --> 01:49:04.055
So that Go ahead. Before you get started, Iko,
1321
01:49:04.455 --> 01:49:10.475
just that question was from our boy, Keto. Keto, I just sent you a Telegram message. If you wanna join us in this chat,
1322
01:49:11.190 --> 01:49:13.369
just click that link that I sent you on Telegram.
1323
01:49:13.909 --> 01:49:14.810
Iko, go.
1324
01:49:16.230 --> 01:49:21.995
1325
01:49:22.455 --> 01:49:22.955
that's
1326
01:49:23.815 --> 01:49:29.810
widening the attack surface. And if it if it's not necessary, then then why not keep it simple?
1327
01:49:30.190 --> 01:49:32.610
And and I think you've done a really good job with that.
1328
01:49:37.125 --> 01:49:37.864
1329
01:49:39.525 --> 01:49:41.305
Kito just asked how many dependencies
1330
01:49:42.005 --> 01:49:42.585
is Spero
1331
01:49:43.260 --> 01:49:48.400
using. That's a really hard question, obviously, to sort of answer because it depends how deep you go to write.
1332
01:49:49.020 --> 01:49:49.420
But,
1333
01:49:49.820 --> 01:49:55.575
if you just look at the sort of build file, there's probably around 15 to 20 or so.
1334
01:49:56.835 --> 01:49:58.615
I don't have an exact figure.
1335
01:50:01.880 --> 01:50:07.580
It's something that I tried really hard to keep as low as I could. Unfortunately, when you've gotta do things like support
1336
01:50:08.195 --> 01:50:10.215
cameras for QR codes and stuff,
1337
01:50:10.835 --> 01:50:11.495
it does
1338
01:50:12.195 --> 01:50:13.655
it is hard to
1339
01:50:14.115 --> 01:50:17.800
keep them down, but there are many times when I sort of just avoided
1340
01:50:18.740 --> 01:50:22.200
doing something a certain way because it would add one more
1341
01:50:22.820 --> 01:50:23.320
dependency.
1342
01:50:24.525 --> 01:50:25.025
So
1343
01:50:25.804 --> 01:50:27.425
it is something that I think
1344
01:50:28.045 --> 01:50:30.065
devs are aware of in the
1345
01:50:30.445 --> 01:50:31.585
space, but
1346
01:50:32.940 --> 01:50:34.400
it's kind of if
1347
01:50:34.700 --> 01:50:36.480
you're going from a browser from
1348
01:50:37.100 --> 01:50:38.960
the start, then there's just a
1349
01:50:39.580 --> 01:50:42.015
whole layer there that you have to be aware of.
1350
01:50:45.295 --> 01:50:45.795
1351
01:50:46.735 --> 01:50:49.955
we appreciate the discretion. Just to be clear here, Kito is
1352
01:50:50.489 --> 01:50:52.250
Kito is currently in bed. He cannot,
1353
01:50:52.650 --> 01:50:56.429
join us. He he's only participating through via text.
1354
01:50:56.810 --> 01:50:58.590
Hopefully, we will have that in the future.
1355
01:51:00.995 --> 01:51:05.095
Yeah. I mean, I I think this is this is a good this is a good point that you made.
1356
01:51:06.035 --> 01:51:07.015
I think that,
1357
01:51:07.850 --> 01:51:10.590
in general, we wanna have, like, the lightest native
1358
01:51:10.890 --> 01:51:14.785
software possible with the least amount of dependencies. Do we all agree on this?
1359
01:51:15.985 --> 01:51:16.485
1360
01:51:18.625 --> 01:51:19.605
1361
01:51:22.260 --> 01:51:28.680
1362
01:51:29.060 --> 01:51:32.585
as low as I can. You know, that's always the sort of aim, I think. So,
1363
01:51:33.925 --> 01:51:44.139
yeah, I I mean, I I I I really don't wanna, you know, point fingers, and I think SpecSpectre guys are doing a great job. You know, just the fact that they are helping people get their coins
1364
01:51:44.440 --> 01:51:44.940
offline,
1365
01:51:46.360 --> 01:51:48.219
is is awesome. You know,
1366
01:51:48.885 --> 01:51:52.265
These are just thoughts that I have, and I think it's worth, you know, having
1367
01:51:52.725 --> 01:51:54.265
a chat about about about it.
1368
01:51:55.820 --> 01:51:59.200
1369
01:51:59.820 --> 01:52:01.120
1370
01:52:01.500 --> 01:52:03.100
She's a rotten rust.
1371
01:52:03.580 --> 01:52:04.320
He's awesome.
1372
01:52:07.795 --> 01:52:08.775
1373
01:52:10.034 --> 01:52:11.574
thanks for clarifying this.
1374
01:52:12.275 --> 01:52:13.910
Low dependency count is great. Be
1375
01:52:15.350 --> 01:52:16.170
Libs though.
1376
01:52:16.870 --> 01:52:18.490
1377
01:52:18.870 --> 01:52:22.570
web view Libs as well, which I've luckily managed to avoid.
1378
01:52:25.505 --> 01:52:30.645
1379
01:52:32.010 --> 01:52:36.750
This is just this is just great. This is fan this is why we dispatch. This is the whole point.
1380
01:52:37.290 --> 01:52:44.594
U t s 9 wants to know, and and I'm throwing this question at Craig. For single sig, why would I use cold card with Specter or Sparrow
1381
01:52:44.974 --> 01:52:57.179
and Bitcoin Core or Electrum? Right? You should be using Electrum according to Craig. And not just use Bitcoin Core, just straight up. Like, why like, I I this is the the hot wallet question all over again.
1382
01:52:59.614 --> 01:53:09.059
1383
01:53:09.920 --> 01:53:21.315
there's no, you know, technical reason. I think it's just ease of use. You know, the reality is the Bitcoin core wallet must move at the same speed as Bitcoin core. Bitcoin core must, for
1384
01:53:21.775 --> 01:53:24.115
very good reasons, move at a very slow speed.
1385
01:53:24.735 --> 01:53:25.235
So,
1386
01:53:25.680 --> 01:53:26.500
you know, that's,
1387
01:53:26.960 --> 01:53:32.100
I guess, also a case of where you have these 2 kind of things. 1, you have this consensus
1388
01:53:40.780 --> 01:53:45.600
which needs to move a lot faster, and they're currently all tied into 1.
1389
01:53:45.980 --> 01:53:52.425
And as a result, Bitcoin Core's wallet is not that easy to use. So the main reason to use
1390
01:53:52.725 --> 01:54:03.690
Spector or Sparrow rather than Bitcoin Core is just really ease of use. It's it's, it's just quite difficult. It's not an you can do it, but it's it's not so easy.
1391
01:54:04.070 --> 01:54:10.614
And I guess there's more chance of you screwing up if you're using the Bitcoin Core Wallet just because,
1392
01:54:11.554 --> 01:54:16.900
for all the best intentions in the world, it just can't move as quickly and and gets,
1393
01:54:17.840 --> 01:54:19.460
the same kind of UI love.
1394
01:54:20.400 --> 01:54:28.495
1395
01:54:29.119 --> 01:54:41.975
from so I have my, like, KYC stack that's just like my my fiat job with my fiat check, and my fiat salary just gets sent through Cash App and just comes out the other side of Bitcoin, and it it arrives in a in a core hot wallet.
1396
01:54:42.675 --> 01:54:51.230
And I just like it. It just has very easily coin control and will sync when it syncs, and I don't fucking care. And I just press receive address, and then just fucking do it.
1397
01:54:51.655 --> 01:54:53.195
Just, like, gets the job done.
1398
01:54:53.575 --> 01:54:55.035
Someone asked me,
1399
01:54:55.415 --> 01:54:59.115
do I push back on companies I advise if they use non native? Yeah. I mean,
1400
01:54:59.735 --> 01:55:01.035
there's only one company.
1401
01:55:01.640 --> 01:55:07.260
I advise 3 comp I advise 4 companies right now. Full disclosure, you can view them on mattodell.com,
1402
01:55:08.120 --> 01:55:09.980
all the all the companies I advise.
1403
01:55:11.625 --> 01:55:15.405
I advise 4 companies officially. I advise a shit ton of companies and
1404
01:55:15.945 --> 01:55:18.284
and and founders in the space.
1405
01:55:18.880 --> 01:55:23.380
I do most of it for fucking free, because I want the space to be better, and because,
1406
01:55:24.239 --> 01:55:31.895
there's just so many bad actors out there that that if if people don't do it, then then no one else will. Like, if I don't do it, who else will fucking do it?
1407
01:55:32.275 --> 01:55:39.449
Of the 3 companies that have given me equity, you have Hexa Wallet, which is an actual wallet, and they they're a react native wallet.
1408
01:55:41.989 --> 01:55:43.429
And then then I have 2,
1409
01:55:44.469 --> 01:55:49.585
basically, KYC on ramps to be quite quite frank. I have Swan Bitcoin, and I have Bottlepay.
1410
01:55:50.684 --> 01:55:59.560
And then the 4th company is Bitcoin Magazine. I build them out hourly. They don't give me equity. And if you wanna go and look at the equity, I have it lined up on on mattodell.com,
1411
01:56:01.380 --> 01:56:04.715
which no one else fucking does, and they should all fucking do it.
1412
01:56:05.435 --> 01:56:06.554
And if any of them
1413
01:56:07.355 --> 01:56:10.735
Bitcoin or do anything unethical, I can drop them and publicly,
1414
01:56:11.835 --> 01:56:16.329
call them out, which it says that also on my site. So there's your answer.
1415
01:56:18.309 --> 01:56:19.690
What else do we have here?
1416
01:56:20.070 --> 01:56:24.010
17 dependencies on Sparrow is what 6102 said. Do you have
1417
01:56:24.505 --> 01:56:25.005
a
1418
01:56:26.665 --> 01:56:28.125
does that sound right to you?
1419
01:56:28.505 --> 01:56:31.165
1420
01:56:32.270 --> 01:56:34.690
count, I think. I think he went into the build file.
1421
01:56:35.550 --> 01:56:37.810
1422
01:56:38.750 --> 01:56:39.250
1423
01:56:40.215 --> 01:56:42.635
Just for those of us who don't really understand,
1424
01:56:43.015 --> 01:56:45.435
like, how does that number of dependencies
1425
01:56:45.815 --> 01:56:47.755
compare to other wallets?
1426
01:56:49.349 --> 01:56:50.809
1427
01:56:51.110 --> 01:57:11.460
I I like, this whole dependency thing is is it's it's easy to just give a figure and and make it sound good or bad. You know? It's it's really about just trying to audit the libraries that a wallet uses. Right? If you've got a 1,000, that's really hard to go in there and sort of order them with them all. It's you know, how often do do do they change?
1428
01:57:11.840 --> 01:57:21.364
That's the kind of kind of thing. I think it's it's, you know, it's it's one of those areas which I I think needs a lot more work. But, you know, the reality is,
1429
01:57:21.745 --> 01:57:23.765
that I was trying to sort of make is,
1430
01:57:24.720 --> 01:57:25.220
the
1431
01:57:25.840 --> 01:57:27.300
sort of JavaScript ecosystem,
1432
01:57:27.680 --> 01:57:30.180
just just the way in which it's evolved
1433
01:57:30.880 --> 01:57:33.824
tends to have like, hundreds of dependencies.
1434
01:57:34.445 --> 01:57:42.130
You know, it's it's just it's a development mindset that they've had, and and there's plenty of good reasons for doing it that way. It just doesn't
1435
01:57:42.750 --> 01:57:47.730
fit the cold storage kind of approach that well, because it makes auditing the soft software
1436
01:57:48.110 --> 01:57:48.610
harder.
1437
01:57:49.535 --> 01:57:53.635
That's that's the the kind of main message that I was trying to make there.
1438
01:57:56.175 --> 01:57:56.675
1439
01:57:58.429 --> 01:58:00.050
1440
01:58:00.429 --> 01:58:05.630
asked like he said, Big Magazine is not listed. I'm trying to figure out I'm I think I need to list them separately because it's
1441
01:58:06.975 --> 01:58:07.475
I
1442
01:58:07.855 --> 01:58:13.715
I don't know if am I supposed to list out everyone I bill out hourly or not. Like, that's, like, their question.
1443
01:58:15.110 --> 01:58:18.570
But to be clear, freaks, like, as number goes up, like, all this is negligible.
1444
01:58:18.950 --> 01:58:25.094
Like, like, Bitcoin Magazine is not paying me enough to to to hold my fucking tongue. Like, I will fucking talk.
1445
01:58:25.475 --> 01:58:33.820
If I if I if I have something to say, I'll fucking say it. No one no one no one can pay me enough to to fucking hold my tongue, and that that's the beauty of Bitcoin.
1446
01:58:36.920 --> 01:58:40.395
Yeah. I mean, so this is this is fucking awesome. Craig, do you have,
1447
01:58:40.875 --> 01:58:46.650
are are we down the rabbit hole? Are we go do we go farther? Is there a farther rabbit hole, or or do have we hit the bottom?
1448
01:58:47.210 --> 01:58:48.989
1449
01:58:49.610 --> 01:58:50.730
1450
01:58:51.290 --> 01:58:52.190
1451
01:58:53.449 --> 01:58:56.864
this is something that I I sort of discovered as I was building
1452
01:58:57.804 --> 01:59:04.465
Spyro Spyro Spyro is, you know, you have this idea of you have your cold storage wallet, and you wanna keep it offline
1453
01:59:04.920 --> 01:59:06.539
as much as you can. And
1454
01:59:06.840 --> 01:59:17.784
what's it doing when it's offline? Well, it's obviously sitting in an encrypted format. And as Eco mentioned earlier, we are using the best kind of military grade
1455
01:59:18.485 --> 01:59:22.025
encryption that we we we can, which is AES 255
1456
01:59:22.600 --> 01:59:23.820
6, and that's awesome.
1457
01:59:24.280 --> 01:59:30.860
But one of the things you have to do before you run the encryption algorithm is you have to derive
1458
01:59:31.494 --> 01:59:36.235
a cryptographic key from the password that you enter to open your wallet.
1459
01:59:36.775 --> 01:59:41.159
And there are various algorithms that derive this key. Now
1460
01:59:41.539 --> 01:59:47.880
the one that Electrum uses is incidentally the same one that is used to derive
1461
01:59:48.435 --> 01:59:52.375
your private key from your seat, and it's an algorithm called pbkdf2.
1462
01:59:53.795 --> 01:59:54.935
So great name.
1463
01:59:56.675 --> 01:59:57.495
The unfortunate
1464
01:59:58.580 --> 02:00:00.200
problem with using pbkdf2
1465
02:00:00.820 --> 02:00:05.880
for passwords is that it's really old. It's it's, like, decades old, and
1466
02:00:06.500 --> 02:00:07.560
it's now
1467
02:00:08.295 --> 02:00:09.195
easily attackable,
1468
02:00:09.815 --> 02:00:10.315
by,
1469
02:00:11.335 --> 02:00:13.915
you know, sort of modern hard hardware.
1470
02:00:14.375 --> 02:00:17.495
So you you sort of open yourself up if you
1471
02:00:18.250 --> 02:00:21.789
if somebody has an access to your cold storage wallet file
1472
02:00:22.090 --> 02:00:33.775
to being able to do what they call a rainbow table attack, where they basically feed a whole lot of common phrases in, and they essentially brute force your pass password just by running it through this
1473
02:00:34.075 --> 02:00:35.295
relatively insecure
1474
02:00:35.595 --> 02:00:37.055
key derivation algorithm.
1475
02:00:37.739 --> 02:00:41.840
So, you know, it's a technical deep detail, but I do think it matters.
1476
02:00:43.179 --> 02:00:48.455
And, you know, that's I think there's an interesting aside to that as well.
1477
02:00:48.995 --> 02:00:54.215
If you are writing a piece of software for a mobile wallet, you are greatly limited,
1478
02:00:54.650 --> 02:00:55.870
because you need to support
1479
02:00:56.250 --> 02:01:01.630
a large range, particularly of Android devices, which, as we know, some of some of them can be pretty underpowered.
1480
02:01:02.195 --> 02:01:04.455
You can't choose a particularly hardcore
1481
02:01:05.155 --> 02:01:10.870
key derivation algorithm. You you know? Because you'll sit there waiting for, like, a minute for your wallet wallet to
1482
02:01:11.830 --> 02:01:15.770
open and your phone will be getting hot and your battery will be going down.
1483
02:01:16.070 --> 02:01:18.410
It just doesn't make a lot of sense. So,
1484
02:01:18.745 --> 02:01:23.725
you know, the power of the phone actually limits the algorithm that you can you can choose.
1485
02:01:24.425 --> 02:01:32.380
Now you can always get around this by using a super long pass password of, like, random numbers and letters and punctuation marks.
1486
02:01:32.840 --> 02:01:36.940
But, you know, that, obviously, then increases the risk that you might
1487
02:01:38.185 --> 02:01:39.485
forget that thing or
1488
02:01:40.105 --> 02:01:44.925
write it down or, you know, have it in a place where it can can can be found.
1489
02:01:45.385 --> 02:01:45.885
So
1490
02:01:47.930 --> 02:02:02.455
two points here. 1, using desktop soft soft software means you can leverage the power of your desktop to use a more hardcore key derivation algorithm, which is good. The second is that you need to make sure that that algorithm
1491
02:02:03.190 --> 02:02:11.370
should take around half a second or more to derive the key. If it doesn't, then you're opening yourself up to,
1492
02:02:11.865 --> 02:02:12.685
you know, sort
1493
02:02:14.025 --> 02:02:14.925
of hardware
1494
02:02:15.385 --> 02:02:29.875
GPU type attacks on that particular file. Now, I mean, this this might sound a bit sort of esoteric, you know, what's the chances that someone's gonna get a hold of your wallet file and start doing this? But, you know, I'm trying to look ahead to the point where,
1495
02:02:31.054 --> 02:02:31.715
you know,
1496
02:02:32.255 --> 02:02:32.755
you
1497
02:02:33.695 --> 02:02:37.520
you really just don't wanna have to worry about that, because
1498
02:02:37.820 --> 02:02:40.960
it exists. Right? The tech exists to make that stuff
1499
02:02:41.340 --> 02:02:47.815
really hard to do, and we may as may as well use it. One of the surprising factors is that
1500
02:02:48.115 --> 02:02:49.655
despite being a cryptocurrency,
1501
02:02:50.515 --> 02:02:51.335
the cryptography
1502
02:02:51.875 --> 02:03:05.605
is actually often pretty old school that we are using. And there's no there's not I'm not saying we should be using the thing that was invented last last year, but, you know, using something that was invented in the last decade seems like a good idea.
1503
02:03:06.625 --> 02:03:07.845
So that's kind of
1504
02:03:08.465 --> 02:03:11.605
the the the last point that I wanted to make was, you know,
1505
02:03:13.200 --> 02:03:14.580
really, I think it
1506
02:03:15.120 --> 02:03:15.780
it references
1507
02:03:16.320 --> 02:03:22.425
what you can do on a mobile wallet in terms of securing your wallet file, particularly for cold store storage.
1508
02:03:22.965 --> 02:03:24.344
And I think, you know,
1509
02:03:24.645 --> 02:03:27.065
as I say, I was just really surprised that
1510
02:03:27.605 --> 02:03:28.105
Electrum
1511
02:03:28.724 --> 02:03:30.665
used this relatively insecure,
1512
02:03:32.070 --> 02:03:32.570
key
1513
02:03:33.110 --> 02:03:43.515
derivation algorithm. And and to be honest, I think that that's because they have been around for such an impressively long period of time, and they've targeted such a wide range of
1514
02:03:44.295 --> 02:03:45.835
of of sort of platforms.
1515
02:03:46.935 --> 02:03:55.610
So it's not a slight on them so much as it is just what they have done, you know, and and the the sort of space that they have come from.
1516
02:03:57.405 --> 02:04:00.065
Yeah. That's point number number 3.
1517
02:04:01.965 --> 02:04:08.449
1518
02:04:09.070 --> 02:04:13.489
1519
02:04:13.790 --> 02:04:19.014
a hot wallet with your Bitcoin core wallet, then the private keys you can in encrypt.
1520
02:04:19.715 --> 02:04:29.930
I don't actually know exactly what the key derivation algorithm is that they use. So I don't know how hard that is is to do, but it sounds like that's what they would be doing.
1521
02:04:31.375 --> 02:04:31.875
1522
02:04:34.655 --> 02:04:35.955
1523
02:04:37.110 --> 02:04:44.489
this goes hand in hand with the fact that I think, like, Sparrow, it like, there's no reason to use the Electrum front end anymore.
1524
02:04:45.105 --> 02:04:45.925
It's like
1525
02:04:46.304 --> 02:04:49.284
if if if you want super user friendly, use Spectre.
1526
02:04:49.824 --> 02:04:51.185
And then if you want
1527
02:04:51.744 --> 02:04:56.700
if you're an advanced user, then you use Sparrow, and there's just no reason to use Electrum.
1528
02:04:59.240 --> 02:05:08.614
1529
02:05:09.554 --> 02:05:14.000
that code has had so many eyeballs on it. So many transactions have gone through it.
1530
02:05:14.960 --> 02:05:16.420
There's value in that.
1531
02:05:17.680 --> 02:05:18.180
So
1532
02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:20.260
I still have a bit of love there.
1533
02:05:23.074 --> 02:05:23.574
1534
02:05:25.875 --> 02:05:27.335
1535
02:05:27.795 --> 02:05:29.175
that's different than
1536
02:05:29.590 --> 02:05:34.150
saying using Electrum personal server. Right? You guys are talking about 2 different
1537
02:05:34.950 --> 02:05:38.330
1538
02:05:39.965 --> 02:05:46.705
Right, Craig? We're talking we're talking about the front end here. We're talking about deriving keys. Correct. And and and and and for a practical point of view
1539
02:05:47.130 --> 02:05:49.070
practical point of view, the big
1540
02:05:49.530 --> 02:05:50.990
the big no no
1541
02:05:52.250 --> 02:05:55.950
the the big no no that that we all learned as Bitcoiners
1542
02:05:56.515 --> 02:05:57.975
was Blockchain dot info,
1543
02:05:59.155 --> 02:06:00.455
when they did the
1544
02:06:01.155 --> 02:06:04.775
they were using random dot org or whatever for their key generation.
1545
02:06:07.740 --> 02:06:09.520
Yeah. Do you wanna talk about this, Craig?
1546
02:06:10.380 --> 02:06:14.955
1547
02:06:15.515 --> 02:06:17.855
I don't know too much about that, to be honest.
1548
02:06:18.635 --> 02:06:22.255
But, you know, it's yeah. So I can't really talk too much of that, I'm afraid.
1549
02:06:22.720 --> 02:06:24.980
1550
02:06:25.440 --> 02:06:27.220
as their source of of entropy.
1551
02:06:28.400 --> 02:06:34.005
And when you when you if you wanna do key generation in a safe way, you need a source of entropy, so
1552
02:06:35.265 --> 02:06:36.485
forget about the algorithm.
1553
02:06:37.825 --> 02:06:42.120
The entropy is more important. The algorithm is important, but the entropy is more important.
1554
02:06:42.580 --> 02:06:43.880
And they were using random.orgorrandom.com.
1555
02:06:45.620 --> 02:06:47.160
I don't know which one it was.
1556
02:06:47.965 --> 02:06:49.425
And and there was, like,
1557
02:06:50.365 --> 02:06:58.440
a, you know, like, a 4 or 4 error or something. Like, they couldn't connect to it. So, like, there was a bunch of keys generated in that middle time where it was just
1558
02:06:59.060 --> 02:07:02.040
there was they were using no entropy. It was just the same
1559
02:07:02.420 --> 02:07:03.480
it was the same
1560
02:07:05.405 --> 02:07:21.210
entropy. So, like, so so that's this is why when I say say to people use cold card, like, roll your dice. Right? Add entropy. You're not you don't wanna trust when we say entropy, we mean randomness. Like, you don't you don't wanna trust the randomness of whatever your device is generating.
1561
02:07:24.215 --> 02:07:25.655
Would you agree, Craig? Like
1562
02:07:26.055 --> 02:07:29.034
Yeah. For sure. Like, the entry is the most important part. Right?
1563
02:07:29.415 --> 02:07:39.985
1564
02:07:40.365 --> 02:07:41.905
has been a little bit overblown.
1565
02:07:42.365 --> 02:07:46.945
It's super important, but, you know, it's it's almost like it has become the
1566
02:07:47.740 --> 02:07:49.440
the, I don't know, the the sort of,
1567
02:07:50.300 --> 02:07:51.920
dominant factor at times.
1568
02:07:53.180 --> 02:07:54.940
You know, I I really
1569
02:07:56.135 --> 02:08:06.040
1570
02:08:06.840 --> 02:08:07.740
Alright. Yeah.
1571
02:08:08.120 --> 02:08:08.840
1572
02:08:09.320 --> 02:08:12.460
You know, I mean, honestly, the chances of your cold card,
1573
02:08:13.240 --> 02:08:14.700
you know, giving you
1574
02:08:15.175 --> 02:08:22.315
bad random numb numbers are are really, really small, but it's easy to roll the dice, so do it. You know, that's that's my sort of advice.
1575
02:08:22.690 --> 02:08:28.309
1576
02:08:28.610 --> 02:08:29.110
that
1577
02:08:29.705 --> 02:08:32.045
if you're a cold card user, you're gonna use your
1578
02:08:32.505 --> 02:08:33.405
own dice entropy,
1579
02:08:33.945 --> 02:08:38.665
then suddenly it takes an attack vector away from, Rodolfo. Right? It's like,
1580
02:08:39.550 --> 02:08:41.410
it and and it's not just Rodolfo
1581
02:08:41.710 --> 02:08:47.410
possibly attacking you, it's anyone attacking Rodolfo to attack the entropy, and they won't because
1582
02:08:47.765 --> 02:08:50.185
they just know that all the users are gonna roll dice.
1583
02:08:51.605 --> 02:08:52.105
1584
02:08:52.485 --> 02:08:54.025
I think that that's a great argument.
1585
02:08:56.220 --> 02:09:00.960
1586
02:09:01.500 --> 02:09:07.265
Like, how do you feel about on chain privacy with Like, I know Iko is, like, super pro.
1587
02:09:08.045 --> 02:09:09.345
He's been pushing this,
1588
02:09:10.605 --> 02:09:20.070
samurai is is the leader in pay join adoption. They call it stowaway by them. They added this whole new tour layer called Soroban, where you can communicate between the users.
1589
02:09:20.770 --> 02:09:24.765
They're doing this thing that I wanted to talk about this episode called Greta's Fury,
1590
02:09:25.705 --> 02:09:29.085
which is I guess, it's important to trigger the blue checks by
1591
02:09:29.865 --> 02:09:31.640
by by bringing Greta into it.
1592
02:09:32.280 --> 02:09:33.820
But the idea is to, like,
1593
02:09:34.600 --> 02:09:39.660
kind of destroy the transaction graph by just doing all these pay joins in a row.
1594
02:09:40.375 --> 02:09:44.235
They call them stowaways. It requires these PayNMs, BIP 47.
1595
02:09:44.775 --> 02:09:50.870
So, like, I'm just really curious, like, on your opinion, and and this opinion is not stated yet. I'm curious of opinion on,
1596
02:09:51.730 --> 02:09:53.110
Chaumian coin joints.
1597
02:09:53.410 --> 02:09:55.510
I'm curious on your opinion on join market.
1598
02:09:55.890 --> 02:09:57.990
I'm curious on your opinion on
1599
02:09:58.375 --> 02:10:00.795
on on, like, this this samurai
1600
02:10:01.175 --> 02:10:14.560
this samurai post mix tool not post mix tools, just just spending tools, stowaway, stonewall. Stonewall is is basically a I don't know how familiar you are with the samurai stack, but I'm just curious on all of these on chain,
1601
02:10:15.665 --> 02:10:19.445
privacy things and and how where you stand here, how
1602
02:10:20.304 --> 02:10:25.570
into them you are. Like, are you paying attention to them, or did you not care about them? Where where do you stand?
1603
02:10:26.430 --> 02:10:27.330
1604
02:10:28.990 --> 02:10:30.530
let's go through through them.
1605
02:10:30.990 --> 02:10:31.490
So
1606
02:10:32.295 --> 02:10:38.695
CoinJoin, I think, is great. I I don't like the fact that it's not a stand standardized thing.
1607
02:10:39.415 --> 02:10:40.075
You know,
1608
02:10:40.730 --> 02:10:47.450
at least from a Aspero development point of view, I've really tried to go down a standards based route.
1609
02:10:48.890 --> 02:10:49.390
And
1610
02:10:50.175 --> 02:10:56.415
that's the one thing that worries me. The other thing is fees. So, you know, the mem mempool is,
1611
02:10:56.815 --> 02:11:01.570
or I don't know. It's really high. Like, I'm not sure what it is right now, but,
1612
02:11:03.389 --> 02:11:04.690
it's going to
1613
02:11:05.230 --> 02:11:21.620
only get more. And I think that that is that is you know, that that that just worries me as a long term plan. Like, it's great today. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, if the fee market continues to develop as it's doing, I I do worry a little bit about whether
1614
02:11:22.720 --> 02:11:27.300
most people are gonna be prepared to pay the fees that will be required to be paid.
1615
02:11:28.225 --> 02:11:39.000
So that's the sort of CoinJoin side. I have done Coin Joins. I think they're great. I think it's a great tool. I'm very happy we have access to it. Am I gonna build it into Sparrow? I'm not yet sure because of those
1616
02:11:39.300 --> 02:11:39.800
reasons.
1617
02:11:41.700 --> 02:11:44.360
Pay join is built into Spiro Spiro.
1618
02:11:44.820 --> 02:11:46.435
I think it's excellent.
1619
02:11:46.974 --> 02:11:50.195
I think the one flaw in Pay join that we have
1620
02:11:50.655 --> 02:11:52.915
is that it currently requires this
1621
02:11:53.300 --> 02:12:00.680
server kind of into it. So that's the way that it's usually implemented. So you But it's interact life. What are you gonna do?
1622
02:12:01.865 --> 02:12:15.260
Well, that's that's okay. But the the issue is that you have to have, like, a BDC pay server, which has an HTTP end endpoint, right, that that you can then talk talk to. Right? And I I would really like to see
1623
02:12:15.765 --> 02:12:21.784
individual wallets being able to talk to each other. Now that's obviously what samurai have built with Soroban,
1624
02:12:22.324 --> 02:12:33.165
and that's awesome. And that's something that's really, really interesting, and I'm hoping that that becomes some kind of a spec so we can all build it and all of the wallets can then take part. Right? Because,
1625
02:12:33.705 --> 02:12:34.365
I mean,
1626
02:12:34.905 --> 02:12:41.989
just think think think think about it. If every Bitcoin transaction you send, you just paid a little bit more and made it a pay join,
1627
02:12:42.449 --> 02:12:45.670
it's just so much easier to break the heuristics
1628
02:12:46.449 --> 02:12:52.865
than everyone doing coin joins. I mean, it's just, for me, as a dev back, just makes a huge amount of sense. So,
1629
02:12:53.805 --> 02:12:55.565
that's something I'm super keen on,
1630
02:12:56.205 --> 02:12:59.105
and it uses BIP 49 now. So
1631
02:12:59.550 --> 02:13:03.010
that's definitely something that I need to look into and and sort of,
1632
02:13:03.870 --> 02:13:07.810
figure out whether I need to add that as the first step to getting
1633
02:13:08.190 --> 02:13:08.690
a
1634
02:13:09.375 --> 02:13:13.474
Soroban or Soroban like layer so we can start doing
1635
02:13:13.775 --> 02:13:16.675
pay joins between wallets rather than between
1636
02:13:17.429 --> 02:13:18.570
wallets and,
1637
02:13:19.350 --> 02:13:29.994
1638
02:13:31.530 --> 02:13:36.190
it's like every good thing I get stuck in the middle. Like, the important thing as a BitCorner is,
1639
02:13:36.570 --> 02:13:47.205
like, if you're a public BitCorner doing content like this every week, like, if you're not getting stuck in the middle of multiple fights, like, you're just doing things wrong. Like, that's just what I've come to conclusion of.
1640
02:13:47.745 --> 02:13:52.700
But, like, the was Bobby BTC pay decided they they're gonna have their own fucking pay join implementation.
1641
02:13:53.880 --> 02:13:55.180
Their pay join implementation,
1642
02:13:55.560 --> 02:13:57.020
it revolves around
1643
02:13:57.385 --> 02:13:59.165
the merchant customer experience.
1644
02:13:59.865 --> 02:14:03.805
Samura is like, fuck you. We think p to p is the way.
1645
02:14:04.345 --> 02:14:09.260
Okay? And p to p, we don't have to have an online server. All we have to do is
1646
02:14:09.960 --> 02:14:15.740
the receiver needs to be ready to accept his payment. That's it. Right? And that's what Stowaway is.
1647
02:14:16.425 --> 02:14:18.925
Basically, he just needs to be online ready to go,
1648
02:14:19.225 --> 02:14:26.790
but there's no, like, server or whatever. Right? It's just he's he just, like, goes into his app, and he's, like, I'm gonna go connect to Tor and make this shit happen.
1649
02:14:28.610 --> 02:14:42.460
1650
02:14:43.000 --> 02:14:48.540
Why can't we all do it? It just makes so much sense. So so I really hope that we see
1651
02:14:49.235 --> 02:14:53.655
a spec because we're not gonna get broad global adopt adopt
1652
02:14:54.675 --> 02:14:59.980
option across wallets until we have some kind of kind of a BIP. And that's, you know, one thing that
1653
02:15:01.719 --> 02:15:10.535
the BDC pay guys did is they wrote BIP 78, right, which is the pay join BIP. And as a result, that is the sort of implementation.
1654
02:15:11.155 --> 02:15:15.495
Now I know that the sum of SunRail guys, if you suggest that they do a BIP, they will,
1655
02:15:15.980 --> 02:15:16.860
well, they won't,
1656
02:15:17.900 --> 02:15:21.120
ignore that. They're never gonna do that. They're never gonna do that. They don't agree with the bid process.
1657
02:15:21.900 --> 02:15:23.520
1658
02:15:23.900 --> 02:15:27.825
from a principle point of view. But but so so so my question
1659
02:15:28.285 --> 02:15:30.625
my I I get my question to you is,
1660
02:15:33.220 --> 02:15:37.720
I mean I mean, so these paid joins are cool. Like, I I think this is, like, a cool concept.
1661
02:15:38.340 --> 02:15:41.000
I like the idea of of Sarban.
1662
02:15:42.825 --> 02:15:47.805
You mentioned fees. I mean, like, fees are just gonna go up. Right? Like, no matter what, fees go up.
1663
02:15:48.425 --> 02:15:58.210
I think I think people need to like, people are get we're we need people to be educated to realize that privacy is worth the additional payment. It'll always be more expensive.
1664
02:16:00.515 --> 02:16:09.560
1665
02:16:10.420 --> 02:16:20.845
every wallet. Right? Everyone's being encouraged to pay join. I mean, it it would break every Chainalysis company. It's game over, you know, if you can get to that that sort of point.
1666
02:16:22.265 --> 02:16:23.325
I think it's a goal.
1667
02:16:24.825 --> 02:16:30.670
1668
02:16:34.410 --> 02:16:41.615
And I I really do I and and and the Samura guys will hate me for it. I really do believe the Wasabi guys are trying their best,
1669
02:16:42.235 --> 02:16:49.240
that that they have best intentions in mind, and the Wasabi guys will hate me when I say that I think the Samura guys have best intentions in mind.
1670
02:16:50.500 --> 02:16:55.226
A lot of this argument resulted it came from BIP 47, which is PayNibs.
1671
02:16:56.485 --> 02:16:59.305
BIP 47, these these payment codes.
1672
02:17:00.485 --> 02:17:03.625
This idea that you can accept a donation with text,
1673
02:17:04.489 --> 02:17:06.270
almost stealth address, like,
1674
02:17:07.290 --> 02:17:10.830
with just with just like a plain text. You have, like, a plain text
1675
02:17:11.676 --> 02:17:15.535
characters, and you can accept a payment in a semi private way,
1676
02:17:16.075 --> 02:17:19.056
where on chain privacy doesn't completely destroy you.
1677
02:17:20.120 --> 02:17:24.300
And they just got wrecked. They got wrecked on the BIP 47 thing. Like,
1678
02:17:24.920 --> 02:17:29.645
Luke was against it. Everyone was against it. They've discouraged it for for usage.
1679
02:17:30.825 --> 02:17:32.605
And they built they built their whole wallet
1680
02:17:33.145 --> 02:17:33.965
around bit 47.
1681
02:17:36.239 --> 02:17:44.420
And and and in in their defense, it makes sense to me. It it seems it seems the right path to go. It's like almost a distributed,
1682
02:17:46.115 --> 02:17:49.255
identifier for wallets so that you can create a new,
1683
02:17:50.516 --> 02:17:51.016
addresses.
1684
02:17:51.955 --> 02:17:54.695
62102 wants to mention that he's blocked by Wasabi,
1685
02:17:55.130 --> 02:17:56.030
and he thinks it's hilarious.
1686
02:17:58.250 --> 02:18:14.075
What do you Craig, do you have a feeling on bit 47? Like, do you have any opinion here? Like, I I like, I it amazes me that the thinkers of Bitcoin, like, the smart guys in Bitcoin don't talk about bit 47 ever, and I just I always am just constantly trying to figure out why.
1687
02:18:15.640 --> 02:18:16.780
1688
02:18:17.320 --> 02:18:30.935
direct answer, Matt, is is is no. I actually really need to get into the spec spec spec and see whether it it sort of makes sense. I understand that there's been a recent change. I haven't got into that change change yet. I was concerned
1689
02:18:31.700 --> 02:18:32.680
about the additional
1690
02:18:33.220 --> 02:18:37.320
transaction that was required, but I I Yeah. But whatever, bro.
1691
02:18:38.965 --> 02:18:50.600
1692
02:18:51.380 --> 02:18:56.625
with Bitcoin, like, you should be able to just, like, post text. I should be able to just, like, post
1693
02:18:57.564 --> 02:19:05.200
a fucking sentence that allows you to donate to me in a semi private way without, like, me doxing my whole on chain balance.
1694
02:19:05.740 --> 02:19:16.505
Like, that should just be that I that should be a capability of Bitcoin. Right? Like, I easy donations without BTC pay server. I don't want BTC pay server. I just wanna fucking post something on Twitter
1695
02:19:16.885 --> 02:19:23.851
and just be, like, if you wanna donate to me, this is the how you donate to me and, like, every wallet supports it. Do we agree that that should be a fucking thing?
1696
02:19:24.551 --> 02:19:25.051
1697
02:19:26.150 --> 02:19:26.971
Fuck. Yeah.
1698
02:19:28.365 --> 02:19:33.985
1699
02:19:34.365 --> 02:19:48.165
but that's that's what they attempt to solve. And the major negative is that it's just only Bitcoin. Only only only the samurai allows you to to spend it, which is the is the major negative. Like, if if you need them to be on Android
1700
02:19:48.865 --> 02:19:52.325
and you need them to be using Samura, otherwise, they can't donate to you.
1701
02:19:53.185 --> 02:19:55.665
But we need to get past that. I just I just need
1702
02:19:56.690 --> 02:19:59.510
I think people need a way to just easily accept
1703
02:20:01.090 --> 02:20:01.590
Bitcoin
1704
02:20:02.210 --> 02:20:09.545
in a private way, in a at least in a more private way than just fixed address. Like, fixed address is not private at all,
1705
02:20:10.886 --> 02:20:11.205
and,
1706
02:20:12.085 --> 02:20:18.471
and it just needs to be done. Like, it's a major pain point. It's it's one of those things that's, like, everyone's getting censored. No one can
1707
02:20:19.170 --> 02:20:23.375
everyone's having trouble receiving donations, like, we should have an easy way for them to do it.
1708
02:20:24.495 --> 02:20:30.595
1709
02:20:31.215 --> 02:20:36.280
Yeah. I'm Yeah. It's it's it's I I completely agree agree with you.
1710
02:20:37.300 --> 02:20:49.325
The I I guess the the the one thing that was making me a bit uncomfortable, and it's probably just a result of me not understanding the spec spec well, is how much of this is tied into paynems.com.
1711
02:20:50.780 --> 02:20:54.319
I don't think it is, but I just need to go and kind of really
1712
02:20:54.780 --> 02:20:59.200
make sure that it's a standards based approach. Because if it is, then we should use it.
1713
02:20:59.965 --> 02:21:05.425
1714
02:21:06.780 --> 02:21:09.520
Is is that that part's tied into paynips.is.
1715
02:21:11.100 --> 02:21:20.465
So, like, the idea that you could be, like but you the way you use SloppyBot 52 or or whatever, and then you look up SloppyBot 52 and it's, like, the payment code,
1716
02:21:21.005 --> 02:21:21.905
that is centralized.
1717
02:21:23.860 --> 02:21:37.455
Okay. Which I think is, like, a decent enough trade trade off. Like, the idea that, like, you just have to look up the payment code somewhere because, like, you don't want to type in, like, 55 letters and numbers instead of, sloppy bot 52.
1718
02:21:38.555 --> 02:21:44.851
1719
02:21:46.351 --> 02:21:50.290
a it's just just, you know, sort of a We're not samurai wallet thing.
1720
02:21:51.095 --> 02:22:02.229
1721
02:22:02.609 --> 02:22:07.109
Like, let's make this fucking thing happen. Like, this is, like, a thing that I think is super important.
1722
02:22:07.745 --> 02:22:19.720
I've I talked about earlier that I'm advising Hexa Wallet. It's not a coincidence that Hexa Wallet has a donation mode that gives you, like, a borderline BTC pay type custodial. It's like a it's custodial privacy relationship,
1723
02:22:20.420 --> 02:22:22.280
but you hold your own keys.
1724
02:22:23.335 --> 02:22:26.075
Luke was against that too. Of course, he was.
1725
02:22:27.255 --> 02:22:34.770
But, like, I I think that's super important, like, people we're gonna have more and more people, especially in the Western world, that get deplatformed
1726
02:22:35.070 --> 02:22:42.165
from all these donation platforms, you know, like the GoFundMe's and the Kickstarters and shit. And they're gonna want an easy way to do it,
1727
02:22:42.625 --> 02:22:44.645
and that easy way can't be
1728
02:22:45.345 --> 02:22:51.200
either paste a fucking fixed address or go b t c pay server. Like, we need to have a middle ground.
1729
02:22:53.181 --> 02:22:54.880
1730
02:22:55.355 --> 02:22:57.455
Agreed. I'm gonna I'm gonna dive
1731
02:22:58.315 --> 02:22:58.815
in.
1732
02:22:59.755 --> 02:23:03.295
1733
02:23:03.596 --> 02:23:04.495
for bit 47.
1734
02:23:06.300 --> 02:23:10.159
1735
02:23:10.540 --> 02:23:11.279
That's it.
1736
02:23:11.580 --> 02:23:14.000
1737
02:23:17.135 --> 02:23:19.774
1738
02:23:21.055 --> 02:23:23.720
well, no. The reason he says that is because once you have
1739
02:23:26.920 --> 02:23:29.000
the Pay NIMs with Soroban now, if they integrate Soroban as well, then you can do,
1740
02:23:29.720 --> 02:23:43.141
then you can do a stowaway for pay join or you can do a stonewall times 2 where 2 people do a coin join, and then it pays out to a third person who doesn't even accept. They just give you a regular Bitcoin address.
1741
02:23:44.000 --> 02:23:47.061
And that like, that's kind of the situation we wanna be in, I think.
1742
02:23:47.840 --> 02:23:49.141
1743
02:23:53.285 --> 02:23:56.585
1744
02:23:58.850 --> 02:24:02.470
How do you get a fixed address? I don't even know what he's talking about.
1745
02:24:04.050 --> 02:24:09.175
So, I mean, a big thing in this podcast, which is hilarious because I'm in it for the tech,
1746
02:24:10.275 --> 02:24:10.775
is
1747
02:24:11.395 --> 02:24:17.015
I make sure that every single person that comes on the show, and I expect you guys to come on as a return guest,
1748
02:24:19.160 --> 02:24:22.620
Answers the question, do you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
1749
02:24:24.280 --> 02:24:26.540
I'm gonna start with Eco. Eco,
1750
02:24:29.495 --> 02:24:32.715
does does the the purchasing power of Bitcoin ever stop?
1751
02:24:36.030 --> 02:24:37.891
1752
02:24:39.230 --> 02:24:44.535
You know, I'm not I I I wanna be clear. I am not a NGU fan,
1753
02:24:45.715 --> 02:24:46.215
but
1754
02:24:46.675 --> 02:24:47.495
I don't think
1755
02:24:48.436 --> 02:24:49.655
Bitcoin is ever
1756
02:24:50.850 --> 02:24:53.989
going back to 0 or even close to it.
1757
02:24:56.290 --> 02:24:58.630
More or less, it is a one way street.
1758
02:25:02.895 --> 02:25:03.395
1759
02:25:06.095 --> 02:25:07.475
It's gonna keep going
1760
02:25:07.830 --> 02:25:09.770
until something better comes along,
1761
02:25:11.189 --> 02:25:13.930
and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
1762
02:25:15.215 --> 02:25:18.435
So look, I mean, guys, nothing lasts forever. Right?
1763
02:25:18.895 --> 02:25:21.075
Things always stay. Bitcoin does.
1764
02:25:21.615 --> 02:25:21.854
1765
02:25:23.311 --> 02:25:29.650
1766
02:25:30.965 --> 02:25:38.024
1767
02:25:38.645 --> 02:25:39.145
But,
1768
02:25:40.190 --> 02:25:45.010
I mean, I think I I see a world where Bitcoin when Bitcoin ultimately gets replaced,
1769
02:25:45.470 --> 02:25:47.970
but they there's, like, some hypothetical new technology,
1770
02:25:49.785 --> 02:25:56.125
The inertia the social inertia will be to take the Bitcoin ledger and transplant it onto the new technology.
1771
02:25:57.000 --> 02:26:05.899
So I think Bitcoin never dies if you care about the ledger. If the if if the ownership ledger is what you're talking about, it it literally would never die.
1772
02:26:07.085 --> 02:26:08.945
1773
02:26:09.645 --> 02:26:11.266
What I'm talking about is,
1774
02:26:12.605 --> 02:26:15.825
really more time to be technically correct than useful.
1775
02:26:16.859 --> 02:26:18.079
I agree with you guys.
1776
02:26:18.859 --> 02:26:24.935
1777
02:26:25.494 --> 02:26:30.234
So another reoccurring segment we have on this show is how would you kill Bitcoin.
1778
02:26:30.774 --> 02:26:31.255
And,
1779
02:26:31.895 --> 02:26:36.410
I had Wiz on the show last week, and he asked me to define kill and Bitcoin.
1780
02:26:36.870 --> 02:26:38.410
So I'm gonna change it,
1781
02:26:38.790 --> 02:26:42.090
the the the the wording, and I'm gonna ask you,
1782
02:26:43.465 --> 02:26:44.604
if you are
1783
02:26:44.984 --> 02:26:49.564
the most powerful governments in the world, so let's say you're US or China,
1784
02:26:50.330 --> 02:26:53.149
or let's we'll just throw Russia in there, whatever. Fuck it.
1785
02:26:53.609 --> 02:26:55.149
You're one of those 3 governments.
1786
02:26:55.689 --> 02:27:00.574
You want to stop Bitcoin. How do you stop Bitcoin? We will start with Eco. Go.
1787
02:27:02.954 --> 02:27:04.335
1788
02:27:07.140 --> 02:27:07.800
I would
1789
02:27:08.580 --> 02:27:09.080
initiate
1790
02:27:09.460 --> 02:27:12.600
a very elaborate media campaign of
1791
02:27:13.685 --> 02:27:18.744
very rich and in the spotlight CEOs to start acquiring Bitcoin
1792
02:27:19.524 --> 02:27:22.640
and to get as many people rallied around it as possible.
1793
02:27:23.340 --> 02:27:24.080
And then,
1794
02:27:25.500 --> 02:27:31.885
once everyone is is brainwashed by what these CEOs are saying to them and talking about the NGU,
1795
02:27:32.505 --> 02:27:37.885
then I would tell the CEOs that they need to hand over their bitcoin in a 6102
1796
02:27:38.265 --> 02:27:39.165
style order
1797
02:27:39.620 --> 02:27:41.320
and get those CEOs to
1798
02:27:41.700 --> 02:27:44.660
tell all the people that have been following them that,
1799
02:27:45.540 --> 02:27:47.960
that that giving the government custody
1800
02:27:48.415 --> 02:27:54.115
is a good thing for Bitcoin and and that this is how we, quote, unquote, achieve world reserve status,
1801
02:27:54.495 --> 02:27:57.635
and the crowds cheer themselves on into a cage.
1802
02:27:58.360 --> 02:28:01.420
And then, and then, I don't know, maybe start requiring,
1803
02:28:04.280 --> 02:28:06.780
social security numbers and op return
1804
02:28:07.115 --> 02:28:10.655
and get someone to infiltrate the Bitcoin core devs to
1805
02:28:11.195 --> 02:28:12.735
have that rolled into it.
1806
02:28:14.475 --> 02:28:15.215
And then
1807
02:28:16.479 --> 02:28:27.346
who knows where it goes from there? But, yeah, I and I and I'm kind of alluding to the fact that I think some of this might be in play already with Michael Saylor and and Elon Elon Musk. And,
1808
02:28:28.365 --> 02:28:35.200
I I think there's some dangerous memes out there. I think number go up is a very dangerous meme. I think this Trojan horse
1809
02:28:35.820 --> 02:28:37.920
idea is a is a dangerous meme.
1810
02:28:38.300 --> 02:28:43.725
And I think people really need to to proceed with caution, and they need to understand their trade offs,
1811
02:28:44.284 --> 02:28:47.024
and they need to weigh their options, and they need to
1812
02:28:48.284 --> 02:28:56.439
to be very careful how they move forward, and they need to keep their identities out of it And go non KYC and make every Spend a Coin join.
1813
02:29:03.445 --> 02:29:05.065
1814
02:29:05.686 --> 02:29:13.420
I'm I'm not sure I can top that, to be honest, or actually add much to it. I I would be much more brief and say,
1815
02:29:15.240 --> 02:29:20.195
the the the best way to do it is to adopt, infiltrate, and subvert,
1816
02:29:21.295 --> 02:29:25.395
which is basically what Iko just just said in a much better way.
1817
02:29:26.880 --> 02:29:33.779
I do think it can be done. There are not that many individuals. In fact, I was really surprised at how small
1818
02:29:34.285 --> 02:29:43.870
the community actually is. You know, it it appears from the outside, maybe not to everyone, but it appears to be quite large, and maybe it's growing at a pace. But it's,
1819
02:29:45.390 --> 02:29:50.450
if you if you get into it and and, you you know, the the people who are building and,
1820
02:29:51.470 --> 02:29:52.750
you know, adding and
1821
02:29:53.230 --> 02:29:56.275
I mean, by that, I certainly include the content, you
1822
02:29:56.735 --> 02:29:57.235
know,
1823
02:29:58.256 --> 02:29:59.556
producers as well.
1824
02:30:00.176 --> 02:30:02.596
It's it's not that many people
1825
02:30:03.199 --> 02:30:04.659
on a global level.
1826
02:30:05.359 --> 02:30:05.859
And,
1827
02:30:06.720 --> 02:30:07.220
yeah,
1828
02:30:07.920 --> 02:30:09.939
it does worry me a little bit, but
1829
02:30:11.345 --> 02:30:12.725
so long as
1830
02:30:13.345 --> 02:30:14.165
we all
1831
02:30:14.545 --> 02:30:16.165
do our work, I think,
1832
02:30:16.625 --> 02:30:18.165
you know, we are winning.
1833
02:30:19.185 --> 02:30:29.119
But I don't think we should be unaware of the risks of that kind of model that Eco just put forward. I I think it is a very possible,
1834
02:30:30.265 --> 02:30:32.445
outcome if we don't keep on pushing
1835
02:30:32.825 --> 02:30:33.645
self custody,
1836
02:30:34.425 --> 02:30:35.725
non k y c,
1837
02:30:36.185 --> 02:30:36.685
and,
1838
02:30:37.945 --> 02:30:41.600
basically, just trying to make it as difficult to,
1839
02:30:42.860 --> 02:30:44.080
analyze the Bitcoin
1840
02:30:44.620 --> 02:30:48.720
blockchain as we can. So that's, yeah, that's my my thoughts.
1841
02:30:50.185 --> 02:30:53.885
1842
02:30:54.265 --> 02:31:00.400
So if you have significant stake in Bitcoin and you hold large amount of Bitcoin,
1843
02:31:00.860 --> 02:31:07.505
you better fucking be for that censorship resistance. Like, if you're not fighting for that censorship resistance, you are short yourself.
1844
02:31:08.125 --> 02:31:13.585
And why would you ever live a life where you're short yourself? That is just dumb. That is just stupid,
1845
02:31:13.940 --> 02:31:14.841
and you should fucking
1846
02:31:15.460 --> 02:31:16.440
rectify that.
1847
02:31:17.221 --> 02:31:19.240
You just start fucking fighting for yourself.
1848
02:31:20.181 --> 02:31:25.215
And and and and and we need to all fight together. Like, we need to just practice personal responsibility.
1849
02:31:25.595 --> 02:31:35.630
The more people that are practicing personal responsibility and taking action to their own hand, the more centrist and persistent the whole system is, and the farther we go. This is hilarious. A bunch of people just decided
1850
02:31:36.170 --> 02:31:38.029
that that Craig Raw is Craig Wright.
1851
02:31:38.410 --> 02:31:48.345
So we have a bunch of people in here going with the CSW meme. He can go fuck himself. CSW would never be on this podcast, so you can just let that let that be known,
1852
02:31:48.740 --> 02:31:49.960
you fucking freaks.
1853
02:31:50.420 --> 02:31:52.840
1854
02:31:53.220 --> 02:31:54.360
fuck Craig Wright.
1855
02:31:57.185 --> 02:32:05.285
1856
02:32:06.359 --> 02:32:07.660
1857
02:32:08.279 --> 02:32:10.700
distanced myself from the other Craig.
1858
02:32:14.524 --> 02:32:19.505
1859
02:32:20.444 --> 02:32:22.145
You wanna shield that to us?
1860
02:32:23.110 --> 02:32:25.530
1861
02:32:26.471 --> 02:32:30.330
check him out on Twitter, or I I believe his URL is bitcoinenemies.com.
1862
02:32:32.725 --> 02:32:36.425
He hosted Greco's Fury, or he organized it.
1863
02:32:36.885 --> 02:32:40.665
And it was this idea to use the stowaway transactions
1864
02:32:41.530 --> 02:32:43.550
and your pay NIMs to pass,
1865
02:32:44.010 --> 02:32:45.311
1 sat torch.
1866
02:32:46.170 --> 02:32:48.910
So there there's a couple of cool things here. 1 is
1867
02:32:49.226 --> 02:32:52.125
it's demonstrating that you can send micropayments
1868
02:32:54.105 --> 02:32:55.565
without using Lightning.
1869
02:32:56.625 --> 02:32:57.966
You know, the one
1870
02:32:58.530 --> 02:33:02.550
downside to this is that you're spending way more miner's fees than you're actually transacting.
1871
02:33:03.490 --> 02:33:13.735
But it's just a cool concept that you could send one SAP to somebody if you'd like to. And you can also do that in a way that is breaking those common,
1872
02:33:15.431 --> 02:33:17.051
what is it, common input ownership
1873
02:33:17.511 --> 02:33:19.370
common ownership input heuristics.
1874
02:33:20.870 --> 02:33:24.864
And that was kind of the whole point of Greta's Fury, is to get
1875
02:33:25.885 --> 02:33:27.104
people off the sidelines,
1876
02:33:27.484 --> 02:33:31.824
get them curious about these tools, get them to use these tools.
1877
02:33:32.641 --> 02:33:33.380
There was
1878
02:33:33.920 --> 02:33:40.101
multiple channels set up on Matrix and on Telegram for anyone who is curious about the event
1879
02:33:41.265 --> 02:33:46.725
to find a place where they could get some guidance if they had never done a stowaway transaction before.
1880
02:33:47.904 --> 02:33:48.404
So,
1881
02:33:49.030 --> 02:33:58.570
it was great to see a lot of new people trying this stuff out for the first time in a fun way that really polluted the transaction draft.
1882
02:34:05.096 --> 02:34:08.320
1883
02:34:09.120 --> 02:34:15.301
I I would just I would just advocate for people who participate to just be careful about what they're polluting it with.
1884
02:34:15.815 --> 02:34:18.475
Just do not dox yourself. Just make sure those are
1885
02:34:18.775 --> 02:34:21.035
they they ideally should be post mix
1886
02:34:21.415 --> 02:34:22.795
transactions. I mean,
1887
02:34:23.200 --> 02:34:24.420
I'd ideally ideally,
1888
02:34:24.960 --> 02:34:27.700
non KYC, but if they are KYC, at least
1889
02:34:28.560 --> 02:34:29.700
post mix KYC,
1890
02:34:31.205 --> 02:34:40.240
before you participate in any of those types of situations, but I I I 100% support it. I think it's kind of funny that you're calling it Greta's Fury,
1891
02:34:42.620 --> 02:34:47.120
1892
02:34:47.726 --> 02:34:49.085
1893
02:34:49.965 --> 02:34:55.425
I don't know who that guy is, but he's been fucking killing it. He's been on a fucking roll. He self hosts everything,
1894
02:34:56.120 --> 02:34:57.880
mister Bitcoin enemies, and,
1895
02:34:58.359 --> 02:35:03.899
and he's gonna be on this podcast sometime soon because anyone who self hosts is a friend of mine.
1896
02:35:05.235 --> 02:35:05.635
But,
1897
02:35:06.516 --> 02:35:16.130
he's just he's just been fucking killing it. He's been fucking killing it, and, I know he has a plural, but let's be honest, like, when names plurals, it just means there's a single dude behind it.
1898
02:35:17.229 --> 02:35:17.729
But,
1899
02:35:18.830 --> 02:35:21.410
yeah. Yeah. I it's a really cool concept.
1900
02:35:21.726 --> 02:35:28.670
I I mean, I think everyone should use Samura Wallet. I think it's a very a very useful spending wallet if you're spending on chain.
1901
02:35:29.630 --> 02:35:40.515
I think if you're not spending on chain, then you should spend lightning. So, like, you do one or the other, but if you do spend on chain, you should use you should use Semry Wallet. And if you'd wanna do CoinJoin, you should use,
1902
02:35:41.455 --> 02:35:43.074
Whirlpool is my favorite.
1903
02:35:43.854 --> 02:35:51.109
Or you can use Joan Market, but let's be honest. Like, you probably won't. And if you don't, you you you should use Samurai.
1904
02:35:53.729 --> 02:35:57.965
So, I mean, we're 2 and a half hours in. I wanna have both of you back on in the future.
1905
02:35:58.985 --> 02:36:02.766
I'm trying to talk about let let's see. Where do I wanna hit?
1906
02:36:03.520 --> 02:36:07.140
I still have you? Why I still have you? What do I wanna hit?
1907
02:36:09.040 --> 02:36:14.215
Mining. I wanna talk eco. I wanna talk about mining. I don't know if Craig has an opinion on this or not.
1908
02:36:15.155 --> 02:36:20.855
Eco is decided to take over from Diverter, who is also on civil dispatch,
1909
02:36:22.100 --> 02:36:23.560
high signal, low noise,
1910
02:36:26.500 --> 02:36:27.560
KYC free
1911
02:36:27.939 --> 02:36:29.239
Bitcoin accumulation
1912
02:36:29.779 --> 02:36:30.520
via mining.
1913
02:36:31.655 --> 02:36:35.195
Eco tried to do this and then realized it's loud as fuck,
1914
02:36:36.215 --> 02:36:39.115
and then tried to build an enclosure to make it quieter.
1915
02:36:40.680 --> 02:36:45.020
You wanna talk about that experience, like, to the freaks who are thinking about,
1916
02:36:45.479 --> 02:36:47.340
basically stacking stats via
1917
02:36:47.800 --> 02:36:49.180
KYC free mining?
1918
02:36:50.005 --> 02:36:50.726
1919
02:36:52.806 --> 02:36:55.065
I really believe the narratives around,
1920
02:36:55.766 --> 02:36:58.825
mining is for big players. It's not profitable.
1921
02:36:59.510 --> 02:37:04.410
It's only gonna work if you can get electricity for 1 cent a kilowatt hour.
1922
02:37:05.350 --> 02:37:08.729
And it wasn't until November of last year that I read Diverter's
1923
02:37:09.155 --> 02:37:10.695
Mining for the Streets Guide.
1924
02:37:11.155 --> 02:37:16.135
And after reading that, it really turned a light bulb on, and
1925
02:37:17.470 --> 02:37:21.010
I saw potential for how that might actually work. So
1926
02:37:21.470 --> 02:37:23.410
I crunched some numbers, and
1927
02:37:23.790 --> 02:37:26.210
and I decided to give it a shot. And,
1928
02:37:27.846 --> 02:37:29.865
you know, I I documented everything
1929
02:37:30.485 --> 02:37:40.439
that my entire experience from start to finish, I documented that all in my guide. I'll be presenting that at, Bear Arms and Bitcoin in Austin, Texas in April.
1930
02:37:41.380 --> 02:37:41.880
And,
1931
02:37:43.775 --> 02:37:47.395
so, yeah, I decided to dive in and go for it, and I
1932
02:37:48.335 --> 02:37:50.035
got a, Whatsminer
1933
02:37:51.160 --> 02:37:51.660
M31s
1934
02:37:53.880 --> 02:37:58.375
Plus, fired it up, and this thing is a fucking powerhouse. It puts out
1935
02:37:59.255 --> 02:38:00.795
like 148 degrees Fahrenheit
1936
02:38:01.175 --> 02:38:01.915
in heat,
1937
02:38:02.375 --> 02:38:05.035
and it was like 85 decibels
1938
02:38:05.891 --> 02:38:07.670
when you're standing next to the thing.
1939
02:38:08.051 --> 02:38:08.551
Now,
1940
02:38:09.250 --> 02:38:09.811
I've got,
1941
02:38:11.090 --> 02:38:16.505
I'm married. I have kids. My minor was being installed in the room directly below my kids' room.
1942
02:38:16.885 --> 02:38:18.265
So I had to find
1943
02:38:19.045 --> 02:38:20.265
some way to
1944
02:38:20.830 --> 02:38:25.090
contain this powerhouse that I just introduced into our living space. And,
1945
02:38:26.910 --> 02:38:27.729
so I
1946
02:38:28.035 --> 02:38:28.775
I designed
1947
02:38:29.475 --> 02:38:31.015
an enclosure out of
1948
02:38:32.115 --> 02:38:35.735
easy materials to procure. I I got everything at Home Depot,
1949
02:38:36.529 --> 02:38:38.149
made an enclosure for it,
1950
02:38:39.250 --> 02:38:41.750
put in some infrastructure for the ventilation.
1951
02:38:42.770 --> 02:38:49.965
And, yeah, that that miner has been running nonstop for, like, the last 30 days now. I just got it fired up about a month ago.
1952
02:38:50.345 --> 02:38:50.845
And
1953
02:38:51.465 --> 02:38:52.205
we are
1954
02:38:53.030 --> 02:39:00.250
generating a constant stream of non KYC SAPS. And because the price is getting so
1955
02:39:01.875 --> 02:39:04.694
because the price is outpacing the hash rate,
1956
02:39:05.154 --> 02:39:05.814
this is
1957
02:39:06.595 --> 02:39:08.694
looking like I may have my
1958
02:39:09.400 --> 02:39:12.700
initial return on investment for procuring the hardware
1959
02:39:13.400 --> 02:39:14.300
paid off with
1960
02:39:14.601 --> 02:39:16.141
in less than 90 days.
1961
02:39:17.880 --> 02:39:18.700
So I think
1962
02:39:19.465 --> 02:39:24.364
my timing was really good because I started this when Bitcoin was trading around $18,000.
1963
02:39:26.425 --> 02:39:28.850
And since then, the price of hardware
1964
02:39:29.390 --> 02:39:31.810
has has gone up with the price of Bitcoin.
1965
02:39:33.470 --> 02:39:36.689
But even that being said, I think anyone who's interested
1966
02:39:37.165 --> 02:39:39.505
should still take a serious look at it.
1967
02:39:40.045 --> 02:39:46.385
Check out my home mining guide. I I put every detail I could possibly think of in there. There's a ton of resources.
1968
02:39:46.910 --> 02:39:56.375
There's a lot of great groups on Telegram you can look at. There's a lot of great mining calculators you can use to figure out if your unique situation's gonna pay off.
1969
02:39:56.995 --> 02:40:00.535
Blockware Solutions does hosted mining. If you can't bring
1970
02:40:00.995 --> 02:40:03.655
that kind of equipment into your living space,
1971
02:40:04.070 --> 02:40:06.250
you can still buy a piece of equipment
1972
02:40:06.710 --> 02:40:08.811
and have it hosted somewhere else
1973
02:40:11.165 --> 02:40:13.585
and get that steady stream
1974
02:40:14.205 --> 02:40:14.865
of Bitcoin.
1975
02:40:15.965 --> 02:40:16.465
So
1976
02:40:17.005 --> 02:40:19.825
I'm very happy that I decided to go down that path.
1977
02:40:20.940 --> 02:40:25.440
I know a few people have read my guide and read Diverter's guide. And
1978
02:40:26.140 --> 02:40:31.275
they've messaged me to let me know that they've started down the path as well. So, it's great to see that happening.
1979
02:40:31.975 --> 02:40:32.295
And,
1980
02:40:33.575 --> 02:40:35.755
I think it's gonna be important for
1981
02:40:36.295 --> 02:40:37.675
more people to mine
1982
02:40:38.061 --> 02:40:40.160
at home for their own safety
1983
02:40:40.700 --> 02:40:42.080
and for the decentralization
1984
02:40:42.460 --> 02:40:43.920
of the network. So
1985
02:40:45.020 --> 02:40:45.681
I mean,
1986
02:40:46.061 --> 02:40:46.880
to be clear
1987
02:40:47.975 --> 02:40:49.354
1988
02:40:50.694 --> 02:40:53.995
I mean, if if I'm, I'm gonna start talking numbers.
1989
02:40:54.431 --> 02:40:56.851
Right? Like, I would be happy to,
1990
02:41:00.030 --> 02:41:00.530
lose,
1991
02:41:01.230 --> 02:41:02.290
you know, 20%
1992
02:41:02.671 --> 02:41:03.171
under
1993
02:41:03.865 --> 02:41:13.245
what I would buy from a KYC exchange, right, to to have non KYC Bitcoin or 40%. I would probably I mean, I'm I'm high. I would go 50%. Fuck it.
1994
02:41:13.850 --> 02:41:15.949
You know, if if if if I could
1995
02:41:16.409 --> 02:41:21.390
if I could if I could get KYC free Bitcoin for a 50% premium,
1996
02:41:22.085 --> 02:41:24.825
Hub can do that shit. That's fucking valuable as fuck.
1997
02:41:25.444 --> 02:41:27.305
1998
02:41:28.484 --> 02:41:31.705
I've been for the last month, in these current market conditions,
1999
02:41:32.070 --> 02:41:36.010
I'm generating non KYC Bitcoin at nearly 60%
2000
02:41:36.470 --> 02:41:41.450
below market price, not for a premium, but, like, 60% below market price.
2001
02:41:42.375 --> 02:41:43.354
Like, I'm generating,
2002
02:41:44.454 --> 02:41:48.635
like, $30 worth of Bitcoin a day for $10 worth of electricity.
2003
02:41:53.360 --> 02:41:54.420
2004
02:41:55.040 --> 02:41:58.261
Yeah. Yeah. I don't believe you. But if you say so, I
2005
02:41:59.205 --> 02:42:03.045
you're on you're on you're on stage. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna counter you. But
2006
02:42:03.766 --> 02:42:09.190
2007
02:42:09.730 --> 02:42:11.671
And, yeah, I I was generating
2008
02:42:12.610 --> 02:42:13.511
non KYC
2009
02:42:14.625 --> 02:42:17.525
for nearly 60% below market price.
2010
02:42:17.905 --> 02:42:21.445
2011
02:42:23.540 --> 02:42:26.680
Okay. I mean I mean, that's half of New York City.
2012
02:42:27.460 --> 02:42:30.600
2013
02:42:32.235 --> 02:42:33.136
2014
02:42:33.756 --> 02:42:35.855
that's our that's the least of our problems.
2015
02:42:36.315 --> 02:42:47.430
2016
02:42:48.256 --> 02:42:48.756
2017
02:42:49.455 --> 02:42:50.355
is a mindset.
2018
02:42:50.735 --> 02:42:52.355
People are fucking ridiculous.
2019
02:42:52.815 --> 02:43:01.040
Like, k non KYC Bitcoin is worth it. It doesn't matter what price you pay. Like, you can pay you can pay if you pay a 100% premium,
2020
02:43:02.300 --> 02:43:06.375
Bitcoin will pump past that. Like, if people think, like, a $100,000
2021
02:43:06.915 --> 02:43:08.215
Bitcoin is the top,
2022
02:43:08.675 --> 02:43:11.415
fuck you. You're short Bitcoin. You're wrong. Like
2023
02:43:12.020 --> 02:43:16.120
like like, we can argue about that now, and I'm not gonna argue about it because
2024
02:43:16.500 --> 02:43:22.274
in the future we will pass it, and then I will be right. Like, I don't need to argue with you about that.
2025
02:43:23.295 --> 02:43:28.755
But but that that's the case. Historically, it's been the case, and I think in the future, it will be the case.
2026
02:43:29.560 --> 02:43:31.420
So I I think people should just
2027
02:43:32.040 --> 02:43:38.060
not worry about that aspect, and they should just get hardware and just fucking make it happen. But the biggest issue is sound,
2028
02:43:39.605 --> 02:43:43.945
and and you've done a good you've done a bunch of good posts about
2029
02:43:44.726 --> 02:43:47.865
the enclosures to try and, like, keep that sound away. Right?
2030
02:43:48.280 --> 02:43:51.660
2031
02:43:53.480 --> 02:43:55.101
2032
02:43:55.575 --> 02:44:04.555
I was gonna post videos of you showing the enclosure in this directly in this episode, but I figured the people that were just listening via the podcast
2033
02:44:04.920 --> 02:44:21.675
would just, like, not appreciate that at all. And, like, I'm actually just gonna put basic sounds into you while while you can't see him hold. He he literally he made an enclosure, and then he put, like, a decibel counter in front of the enclosure and held it there for the video so people could see,
2034
02:44:23.160 --> 02:44:34.685
that he decreased the the sound. It's still annoying. Let's be honest. It's still annoying. Like, really, best case scenario is you have, like, a garage you can put it in where, like, no one ever goes into that garage that's detached
2035
02:44:35.145 --> 02:44:38.125
from your house. Like, like, it's annoying fucking sound.
2036
02:44:39.069 --> 02:44:41.170
2037
02:44:42.109 --> 02:44:45.090
But it's managed, like, can be managed. Yeah.
2038
02:44:45.630 --> 02:44:51.555
2039
02:44:52.335 --> 02:44:52.835
Craig,
2040
02:44:54.335 --> 02:44:59.770
do you have any opinions here on mining? Do you you have any have have you been exposed to mining at all?
2041
02:45:01.750 --> 02:45:03.210
2042
02:45:03.864 --> 02:45:08.265
Because article, and I I thought it was great. I really just enjoyed the build and and,
2043
02:45:08.665 --> 02:45:11.244
yeah, appreciated the work that went into it.
2044
02:45:12.220 --> 02:45:14.160
I guess I have a question. You know?
2045
02:45:14.700 --> 02:45:19.120
Do you guys think that we are in the sort of almost the golden age of mining
2046
02:45:19.465 --> 02:45:23.484
before the rewards drop, or do you think that the fee market is going to
2047
02:45:24.104 --> 02:45:25.005
fully supplant
2048
02:45:25.545 --> 02:45:26.205
the current
2049
02:45:26.745 --> 02:45:27.245
rewards?
2050
02:45:29.610 --> 02:45:34.750
2051
02:45:37.035 --> 02:45:43.215
we're kind of in the world where warehouse mining makes the most sense, and I think we're gonna enter the world where
2052
02:45:43.675 --> 02:45:44.175
ASICs
2053
02:45:44.801 --> 02:45:52.740
last way longer than they do right now. And you will have a world where, like, people will just use their water heater. Their water heater will be,
2054
02:45:54.135 --> 02:46:03.540
a Bitcoin miner will be heating that, and they'll be getting extra Bitcoin from it. Where their electric heater will be getting extra Bitcoin from it, and they'll have all these different mechanisms
2055
02:46:04.240 --> 02:46:06.420
where they're like, it'll it'll redistribute,
2056
02:46:07.200 --> 02:46:12.395
where you'll have discounts of scale, where where this idea that if the ASIC lasts long enough,
2057
02:46:13.655 --> 02:46:18.875
really the the the argument is can you secure that waste energy,
2058
02:46:19.380 --> 02:46:27.399
and that waste energy is the heat that gets released. Can that heat be reused? And if that heat can be reused, then all of a sudden you're talking
2059
02:46:28.115 --> 02:46:30.295
major diseconomies of scale. You're talking
2060
02:46:30.675 --> 02:46:31.175
houses,
2061
02:46:31.955 --> 02:46:33.015
buildings, apartments,
2062
02:46:34.205 --> 02:46:34.705
offices.
2063
02:46:35.131 --> 02:46:38.830
They're all gonna have Bitcoin miners that are also heating shit,
2064
02:46:39.370 --> 02:46:43.070
and and no one can compete with that, and it'll distribute out.
2065
02:46:45.734 --> 02:46:47.755
2066
02:46:48.215 --> 02:46:48.875
at previous
2067
02:46:49.335 --> 02:46:51.035
epochs in in Bitcoin,
2068
02:46:51.790 --> 02:47:02.355
you know, it went from 50 to 25, and it keeps getting cut in half. But mining continues to make sense in every epoch. And I think that's not going to change going forward. I think it'll
2069
02:47:02.735 --> 02:47:04.035
continue to make sense.
2070
02:47:06.870 --> 02:47:14.570
I don't know if that's because the fees go up or if it's just because the value of Bitcoin is so much that it offsets the electrical costs,
2071
02:47:15.005 --> 02:47:16.785
and and it's still worth it. But
2072
02:47:17.725 --> 02:47:18.705
I think, somehow,
2073
02:47:20.324 --> 02:47:22.625
it it it'll find a way, and and
2074
02:47:23.150 --> 02:47:25.891
mining will continue to make sense far into the future.
2075
02:47:28.351 --> 02:47:35.835
2076
02:47:36.455 --> 02:47:40.234
2077
02:47:40.601 --> 02:47:42.301
every apartment building out there
2078
02:47:42.841 --> 02:47:45.420
using ASICs to run the hot water,
2079
02:47:46.120 --> 02:47:47.101
and, yeah, I think
2080
02:47:47.480 --> 02:47:49.020
hash rate is going to continue
2081
02:47:49.705 --> 02:47:51.085
to go up, as well.
2082
02:47:52.825 --> 02:47:55.965
The major problem we're having right now, I think, is that
2083
02:47:57.080 --> 02:47:58.700
you don't have that many great
2084
02:47:59.080 --> 02:47:59.580
ASIC
2085
02:48:00.040 --> 02:48:00.540
manufacturers.
2086
02:48:01.880 --> 02:48:04.780
And I think that's kind of creating a bottleneck.
2087
02:48:06.495 --> 02:48:08.335
So you've got What's Minor or,
2088
02:48:08.814 --> 02:48:09.314
BTC.
2089
02:48:11.055 --> 02:48:12.435
What's the company's name?
2090
02:48:14.010 --> 02:48:14.510
MicroBT
2091
02:48:15.130 --> 02:48:17.150
is the company behind the What's Minor.
2092
02:48:17.690 --> 02:48:19.150
And then you've got Bitmain.
2093
02:48:21.145 --> 02:48:25.405
And there's not a whole there's not a whole lot of other big fish out there. So,
2094
02:48:27.226 --> 02:48:28.930
yeah, I think the hatchery will
2095
02:48:39.596 --> 02:48:45.495
I think the price will continue to outpace it, and the next few years are gonna be very good years for mining Bitcoin.
2096
02:48:49.620 --> 02:48:54.740
2097
02:48:55.375 --> 02:48:58.435
all of us are gonna be winners. It's gonna be very good.
2098
02:49:00.095 --> 02:49:04.115
Don't let these short price movements fucking dictate any kind of attitude
2099
02:49:07.550 --> 02:49:11.490
here. We're we continue to win, guys. We continue to win.
2100
02:49:12.189 --> 02:49:14.370
All The Citadel's are receiving this.
2101
02:49:15.555 --> 02:49:20.375
They think they have us. They think they have us with this bullshit price decrease,
2102
02:49:21.690 --> 02:49:23.070
but we sit at $48,000
2103
02:49:24.091 --> 02:49:25.790
Bitcoin. Like, fuck you.
2104
02:49:26.570 --> 02:49:28.190
Like, we we will win.
2105
02:49:29.585 --> 02:49:33.285
To all the freaks here on live chat, thank you for joining us.
2106
02:49:33.665 --> 02:49:35.045
This is why we Bitcoin.
2107
02:49:35.745 --> 02:49:36.645
Bitcoin Tuesdays
2108
02:49:37.025 --> 02:49:38.165
are what it's about.
2109
02:49:39.011 --> 02:49:41.750
To Craig Raw and Econa Alchemist,
2110
02:49:42.130 --> 02:49:49.825
thank you for joining us. I mean, you guys are gonna come back in future. I I would love to have you guys in the future. We're gonna have so many good conversations.
2111
02:49:50.845 --> 02:49:51.345
Craig,
2112
02:49:51.885 --> 02:49:55.745
we we got to we got to take your podcast, virginity. I appreciate that.
2113
02:49:56.380 --> 02:49:57.280
That's at
2114
02:49:57.740 --> 02:49:58.240
a@craigraw,
2115
02:50:01.740 --> 02:50:02.240
craigraw,
2116
02:50:04.315 --> 02:50:05.136
and Econalchemist
2117
02:50:05.675 --> 02:50:06.175
is
2118
02:50:06.715 --> 02:50:07.215
ec0nolchemist.
2119
02:50:13.355 --> 02:50:13.855
Go
2120
02:50:14.380 --> 02:50:15.120
follow them.
2121
02:50:16.060 --> 02:50:22.800
Make that fucking happen. Go follow us through the dispatch. Like and subscribe, all that, all the bullshit. I don't fucking do that shit.
2122
02:50:24.175 --> 02:50:26.034
And let's stay humble in Stack Sats.
2123
02:50:26.814 --> 02:50:28.914
Craig, do you have any last comments?
2124
02:50:30.810 --> 02:50:32.430
2125
02:50:32.890 --> 02:50:33.950
shout out to,
2126
02:50:34.890 --> 02:50:38.670
Elle Matan, who's doing her first PR review club,
2127
02:50:39.386 --> 02:50:41.806
in, about 12 hours or so.
2128
02:50:42.745 --> 02:50:43.945
Really great to see,
2129
02:50:44.425 --> 02:50:45.965
young new people coming into
2130
02:50:46.665 --> 02:50:47.165
the
2131
02:50:47.990 --> 02:50:48.730
space. And,
2132
02:50:49.350 --> 02:50:50.950
yeah, I'm just I'm keen,
2133
02:50:51.750 --> 02:50:53.530
to see how that one goes.
2134
02:50:55.350 --> 02:50:55.850
2135
02:50:56.150 --> 02:50:56.890
hit us.
2136
02:51:01.346 --> 02:51:10.420
2137
02:51:11.200 --> 02:51:12.500
maybe you're not a coder,
2138
02:51:14.675 --> 02:51:18.854
We need people focusing on more non KYC onramps.
2139
02:51:19.555 --> 02:51:23.490
And if you wanna do something that's worthwhile in Bitcoin,
2140
02:51:24.591 --> 02:51:27.971
I think that area needs a lot of work, and it needs a lot of support.
2141
02:51:28.774 --> 02:51:29.254
And,
2142
02:51:29.734 --> 02:51:31.435
and I think it would be very
2143
02:51:31.814 --> 02:51:32.314
fruitful
2144
02:51:33.415 --> 02:51:37.515
of anyone out there who wants to get involved in this space to start thinking about
2145
02:51:38.390 --> 02:51:41.050
how they can provide non KYC on ramps.
2146
02:51:42.870 --> 02:51:43.530
2147
02:51:44.150 --> 02:51:47.370
total freaks out there. I have a mount but mount Gox
2148
02:51:47.726 --> 02:51:50.466
stream tomorrow about the anniversary of mount Gox.
2149
02:51:50.926 --> 02:51:55.506
It's gonna be all about self custody. I'd appreciate your support over there for that.
2150
02:51:56.200 --> 02:51:58.859
Retweets, likes, all that shit is super valuable.
2151
02:51:59.800 --> 02:52:05.336
And just, like, participation, like, just come into the comments. Let's have a fucking fun time with it. We're gonna
2152
02:52:06.035 --> 02:52:12.136
like, let let's let's show the noobs why self custody is important. I'm trying to fucking do a show over there. That's the whole point
2153
02:52:12.700 --> 02:52:21.040
of of being an adviser at Bitcoin Magazine. The second whole point of being an adviser at Bitcoin Magazine is I'm gonna throw a fucking insane 200 k party
2154
02:52:21.476 --> 02:52:23.096
for all those involved
2155
02:52:23.636 --> 02:52:26.535
in Miami in June, June 4th through 5th.
2156
02:52:27.315 --> 02:52:28.056
The only
2157
02:52:28.516 --> 02:52:29.335
the only,
2158
02:52:30.600 --> 02:52:43.885
fucking discount code that will give you a 21% discount is humble, all caps, and that's my discount code. I've fucking negotiated that for you mother fuckers. I'm not making any money off of that. That's the only reason I'm fine with the ref link.
2159
02:52:44.265 --> 02:52:49.690
I I disagree with all ref links, but as long as all the money goes to you guys, I'm fucking fine with it.
2160
02:52:50.891 --> 02:52:52.830
Catan and Ministry of Nodes,
2161
02:52:53.610 --> 02:52:56.750
if if you need support, you should go to ministry of nodes.com.
2162
02:52:58.615 --> 02:52:59.915
They will give you support.
2163
02:53:00.375 --> 02:53:13.670
I I I they are not sponsoring it. They're my boys. Okay? In RHR last week, I said 60 to $70. I fucking sold them short. It's a value to value model. If you guys do not pay them more than a $150,
2164
02:53:14.715 --> 02:53:21.455
they will they're fucking gonna stop the service. Like, you gotta make that happen. Like, show them some love. Honestly, 1,000,000 sats,
2165
02:53:22.051 --> 02:53:28.950
bare minimum. That's how it should be. A 1,000,000 sats, you give them less than a 1,000,000 sats, you don't love them. Make that happen. Give them some love.
2166
02:53:29.675 --> 02:53:34.016
I do really feel bad about short selling them last week on that. So,
2167
02:53:34.476 --> 02:53:38.096
like, please make sure that happens. Like, be be good about that.
2168
02:53:38.500 --> 02:53:42.439
And I will see you tomorrow for the Mt. Gox stream. I will see you Thursday
2169
02:53:43.060 --> 02:53:47.560
for RHR. It's gonna be fucking lit as fuck. I love all of you freaks.
2170
02:53:47.915 --> 02:53:49.535
Stay humble, and stack sides.
2171
02:53:51.115 --> 02:53:52.095
2172
02:53:53.035 --> 02:53:53.854
Cheers, Matt.
2173
02:54:30.320 --> 02:54:31.220
2174
02:54:31.720 --> 02:54:32.220
you.
2175
02:54:32.720 --> 02:54:36.420
Don't ever let anyone step all over you.
2176
02:54:37.601 --> 02:54:39.380
Just open your heart
2177
02:56:36.975 --> 02:56:38.915
Break free from the chains.
2178
02:56:41.055 --> 02:56:48.739
Yeah. I know that there is pain, but just hold on for one more day and you break, break, break from the chain.
2179
02:56:50.960 --> 02:56:52.515
Someday, some fight is gonna
2180
02:57:47.225 --> 02:57:50.444
2181
02:57:50.760 --> 02:57:51.580
I'll see you
2182
02:57:52.040 --> 02:57:53.899
tomorrow and Thursday for our HR.
