Jan. 20, 2021
CD5: Encryption, Mining, and No KYC Bitcoin with @diverter_nokyc and @maxtannahill
Join Matt Odell as he sits down with @diverter_nokyc & @maxtannahill
EPISODE: 0.0.5
BLOCK: 666809
PRICE: 2731 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Encryption, Mining, and No KYC Bitcoin
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00:00 - Bitcoin as a speculative asset
00:28 - Criminal investigations and regulations for Bitcoin
01:50 - Introduction to Citadel Dispatch podcast
02:30 - Privacy as a favorite topic
07:12 - Importance of privacy and open-source software
20:30 - Is Signal secure?
40:45 - Concerns about iMessage and privacy
47:40 - Data collection by messaging apps
49:08 - Signal's approach to privacy
52:01 - The potential impact of powerful governments on privacy-focused apps
01:32:49 - Living within your means and personal responsibility
01:34:47 - Bitcoin adoption by corporations
01:43:40 - The importance of Bisq and decentralized exchanges
02:17:39 - Secure messaging options
02:18:18 - Encrypted email clients
02:18:31 - Encrypted note apps
02:19:01 - Social media apps
02:19:23 - Bitcoin wallets
02:19:44 - Keyboard options
02:20:02 - Browsers
02:20:27 - VPN providers
02:20:52 - PGP encryption
02:21:27 - Final thoughts and advice
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:30 PM
Duration: 9272.816
Channels: 1
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It's it's a speculative asset,
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by any account. I mean, when you look at the at the most recent developments
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upward and now the most recent downward trend,
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It's for those who had assumed that it might turn into a currency,
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terribly sorry, but this is an asset and it's a highly speculative asset,
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which,
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which has conducted some funny business and some interesting and totally reprehensible
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money laundering activity.
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I think that there are criminal investigations that have taken place that I'm sure will continue to take place that demonstrate it, very clearly. And and there has to be regulations, and and this has to be, this has to be applied,
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and and agreed upon. It's a matter that needs to be agreed at a global level because, you know, if there is an escape,
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that escape will be used. So I think it needs to be to be
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if if if anything, it shows that
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global cooperation, multilateral action is absolutely needed, whether it's initiated by the g 7, moved into the g 20, and then enlarged, but it's something that needs to be,
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to be addressed. And and, FATAP is clearly an organization that has expanded in that respect.
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Cheers, freaks, and welcome to this week's Citadel Dispatch.
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I'm your host, Matt O'Dell,
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the show that's broadcast
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live weekly to you every Tuesday
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at 22100
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UTC.
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You can find us on Twitch, Twitter, and YouTube. All the links are at citadel dispatch.com.
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This week, I'm joined by my friends
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Diverter
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and Max Tannehill.
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These guys
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are have become close friends with me.
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We talk about all things privacy.
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It's our favorite topic, so I figured who better to join me than them.
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I at this point, I I I just wanna say cheers to all the freaks who are joining us in the chat,
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from all around the world.
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It's pretty cool to all come together every Bitcoin Tuesday.
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And I always like to start it out with a quick introduction from each of our guests. So, Diverter, why don't you start and just introduce yourself quickly to the freaks?
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Sure, man. Thanks for having me.
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Diverter,
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a k a diverter. No k y c. No k y c. Only however you wanna put that on the end.
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Just interested in
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in
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Bitcoin,
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censorship resistance,
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what I really interested in. So
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whatever tool
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use,
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be able to communicate
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people without having to ask permission,
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that's what gives my eye. So
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naturally, I'm, I'm big
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in
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the
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that without having to ask a whole lot of permission.
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I'd like to be able to talk about it without having to, ask a whole lot of permission and without having to let everybody else know what I'm talking about.
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So
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fit right in in this graph. Glad to be here.
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Cheers to that.
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What's up, Max?
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Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me.
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Yeah. So,
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I'm Max Sunhill.
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I've been,
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well, like, into Bitcoin, I suppose, for about kind of 5 years. I can't even remember when I first, started chatting with Matt,
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but certainly kind of in the early days. And I think,
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for me, anyway, the,
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certainly the chat apps and the encrypted chat apps have a lot of overlap with Bitcoin. It's all data at the end of the day and all free text.
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So I think the kind of way we use this information and these applications
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should be looked on as pretty similarly to the way we,
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we use BTC.
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And so just a bit of background about me,
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or I've been in Singapore, like, over 10 years now. As you can pretty tell from the accent, I'm from the UK.
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So, and Bitcoin is is is is and probably always will be for me, always on the Harvey side. But no interest in working in the industry or anything.
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But, like the kind of I'm sure a number of you here, I've got a little side gig, on the side that I do to
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to earn some bits and BTC,
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which is always kinda fun to do. And so, since doing that, it's,
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I've certainly had a lot more kind of questions from customers, etcetera, on using these type of apps.
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As everyone is, obviously increasingly more concerned about their privacy. And also, I think most of all, censorship resistance,
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being able to kinda say what they want, whenever they can.
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Cheers, guys. Appreciate,
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the in-depth intros over there.
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Particularly
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interested in talking about Singapore. I didn't know if we were gonna be able to bring that up this,
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this discussion, so we will definitely get back to that.
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To the freaks listening on the podcast feed,
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to the freaks listening
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on on all the different mediums, You can see the different ways that you can listen at citadel dispatch.com.
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The archives go up on Keybase and Telegram afterwards. They get syndicated out to our podcast feeds, both the TFTC tales from the crypt feed and the Citadel dispatch dedicated feed. So you can check it out on all those all those methods.
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If they try and deplatform us, they're gonna have to deplatform us from all of those.
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Okay. The current block height is 666
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809. The current price is 2,731
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sats,
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so slightly up from last week.
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For the freaks joining us by video on the livestream,
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I'm trying something new on the price display this time. On the top, we have the evil empire. We have Coinbase Pro,
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their live price sticker. And then underneath, we have the real price. We have the bisque price,
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and you can see just the volume differences between the compliance bro exchange on the top
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and, bisque underneath. I thought it was kind of a cool, discrepancy.
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Just a a couple of minutes ago, right before we started, Bisk was trading out about 38,000, a little bit above it,
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which is just a cool I just think that's a cool concept that people don't realize. Also, to the freaks tuning in through the podcast feed, the intro video was Christine Lagarde from the
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European Central Bank,
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the ECB.
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Just talking shit about Bitcoin.
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But while she did it, she mentioned something. She mentioned
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that we that they need a global response.
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They need a global response if they wanna stop Bitcoin because if there is an escape she said the words escape. If there's an escape, someone will use it. And I think that doesn't only apply to Bitcoin. I think that also implies to encryption and privacy software.
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So I thought that's, you know, as good a place as ever to start.
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You know, to you guys, like, why is privacy so important? Why is free open source software so important? And I I guess we'll start with Max this time.
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I suppose for me, it's always,
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I mean, well, it comes right back to the beginning. Like,
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even in my end my introduction with,
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with with Bitcoin even didn't start from
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an Austrian perspective.
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It didn't even really start from a technical perspective.
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It was actually,
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kinda hearing stuff about Edward Snowden
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and getting more involved there. And I think politically, I went from
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right of center to kinda far more libertarian
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and then started realizing
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quite what the state was doing, in terms of censorship,
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quite what it had in terms of relationships, the backdoors in popular software.
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And,
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you know, it doesn't take much to realize
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quite what that means
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for for, yeah, for tyranny and for for unchecked power.
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So I think it's a combination of that plus the fact that ultimately
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you can't stop the signal as they say. You know, really, it is just free text. It can't be stopped.
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I think, you know, ultimately, it's,
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it's something I wanna do.
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Really, I have
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I don't really wish upon anyone else to deal with my free speech so much. I just wanna be left alone to be able to say what I want. And that's always been fundamental to how I feel like you know? So
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really, you know,
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politically for me, it's just, well, I want to, and I I'm not gonna cause anyone any harm by saying anything. Yeah. The offense is taken. It's not given.
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And for me, it's just very, it's very core and it's something I won't settle on or deal with. I will say what I want when I want.
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And, that's that's just kind of fundamental,
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to me to do.
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As for the open source kind of aspect as well, I mean, yeah, it's just I think, obviously, it's critical from a,
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trust perspective.
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You know, we
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I think
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I suppose I don't know so much for you, Matt, but, you know,
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you've always been pretty transparent on, mistakes that you've made with Bitcoin and
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problems you've had, but I can honestly say this. In the last 5 years, I've been using Bitcoin. Anything that could go wrong did go wrong.
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And
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when you are looking at, you know, open source software particularly, it's,
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it's a space that's incredibly you know, it's a lot of threats. You pretty much we can't think of anywhere that there aren't as many threats.
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So
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you have to think
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in terms of that
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in that scenario.
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And, you know, if there is an exploit, it could be taken advantage of largely
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and you will suffer for it. So for me, you know, that that transparency
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is is always important where you possibly get it. And certainly for kind of the use with Bitcoin apps, it's often often a,
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a deal breaker for me. And for a lot of the software I use for such as messengers, I am sending specific use cases, it'd be a deal breaker for me as well.
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I,
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I was waiting to see if Diverter was gonna say something. But,
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before before I get to him,
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I 100%
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agree that in the world of Bitcoin is a is a world of personal responsibility,
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that that goes, I think, hand in hand with the world of privacy. If you're trying to be privacy focused,
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this world defaults to custodial relationships, whether that's privacy, whether that's Bitcoin, whether that's any kind of,
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aspect of our lives where you basically
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are trusting someone, relying on someone else,
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for that responsibility.
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And as such,
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we are we've gotten coddled, and we're not used to a personal responsibility situation. But in a situation where we have to practice personal responsibility,
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we are ultimately going to make mistakes. We're gonna make a lot of them. And the important thing is to stay humble and to learn from them,
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rather than letting them, you know, completely take us down. But,
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it it's it's definitely it's it's definitely a minefield out there for for Bitcoin users.
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I mean, I I That's just Yeah.
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That's just in general. You know? I mean, privacy
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in general is is is a minefield. Like you said, the the
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default is none.
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Deal and so often left with, the illusion of a choice. Well, we don't actually have a choice,
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but
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state and field down all.
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And here, you can either pick this or you can pick that, but both of them, you're
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screwed either way. They still leave you with this illusion of a choice,
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when it's it's 2 sides of the same coin.
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So privacy,
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you know, being able to selectively
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reveal yourself, and you get to choose
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who knows what about you and who can read what you said.
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You get to choose who you can transact with and who you can't transact with based off of your personal,
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moral standards.
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Since we've gotten in this area where so many people
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are so convinced that that
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they're right,
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I'm not smart enough
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to,
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to think that I am a 100% right on everything and that I know best for everyone.
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I happen to believe everybody.
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Okay. To choose for their self,
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what's best for them
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and the people that, you know, are in their lives. So
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I have no interest in forcing,
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my
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beliefs and and things on the work.
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So many times, we're in a situation now where that is exactly what's happening. It's all being forced upon us, and we download these apps and there are permissions and things that people are not understanding,
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just clicking through because they wanna use Facebook Messenger,
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that they're giving away all their private data and that, you know, it's gonna be mined and sold to these companies and they're gonna start getting ads because they said something
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offhand in their life.
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So, you know, privacy is is of the utmost importance, and and I I think we're just now starting to get an idea
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or people are just now getting started to get an idea of how important
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that is and how little we have of it.
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So I mean, I I think that's very insightful there, and it's it's a key point that I think is important for us to hit right in the beginning.
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It's very interesting, this world we find ourselves in, if you are focused on privacy and sovereignty,
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because we have a lot of options at our disposal,
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and each option has different trade offs. There's a ton of nuance here.
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And and, you know, the funny thing is, like like, right now in the comments, we have we have Partis,
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BTC pins is talking to such salad,
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and they're talking about tails
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versus,
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cubes.
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And they're they're deciding, like, which one's better, you know, in the comments. And everyone has an opinion on it, and there's no obvious answer in either direction because each one has different trade off balances. But at the same time, I'm sure we have freaks listening right now who have an Amazon listening device, you know, an Alexa,
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you know, assistant
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sitting in their in their apartment right across from them right now that they can go over and unplug and make tangible privacy benefit. Right? So there's this whole scale and and and to try and hit everyone at the same time,
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is is a is a hard task. But I think I think, ultimately,
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if the path we're going down here requires personal responsibility,
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we need to basically teach people how to fish. You can't just tell them, you know, eat this shit. They have to
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did they they have to know what they're doing. They have to know what their threat model is. Right?
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Yeah. So you have to look
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go to the Go ahead, Mac.
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I just gotta say, like, I think still this, and it's always worth reiterating this little bit of a confusion between privacy and anonymity.
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And,
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you know, people do still get confused why you'd need encryption in an app.
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And
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people still get surprised why, you know, you might be,
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against,
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giving a passport to a third party, especially if it's regulated,
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you know, because they should be able to be trusted, that kind of attitude.
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You know,
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because, you know, you know, what you have to hide and all that. I think,
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making that point more, I think, you know, we do need a bit of a cultural change.
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I think particularly in the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years,
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with kind of growth platforms like Facebook and all that,
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we have been kind of somewhat conned,
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culturally into
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being, you know, having a new normal defined,
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then as to what's acceptable in terms of, personal information that needs to be shared and all that. I mean, just the other day, I saw a video,
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someone coming off Facebook, and there's, like, a kinda comedy video when they go around and physically like people's pictures in the office and,
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hand over their, you know, their their passport to someone underneath a cubicle and, you know,
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you know, just kinda lurk over people's other comments and all that. And I think, you know, if you take a step back and look at kind of what Facebook is today
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and how that actually applies to real life, it is actually pretty weird.
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And, actually, even something like Twitter is quite weird as well. I mean, if you were to take Twitter into that and put it into real life,
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you're kinda like walking around
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looking for arguments to get yourself involved in and poke the bear with in a lot of cases
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or stand there in a public square and shouting. That's not what people are kinda comfortable doing. Just shouting the lowest common denominator.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Completely confidently
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just shouting it out, hoping people walk by and tap you on the face or something.
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Yeah. It's strange. Yeah. It's a nice aspect of it as well, but it's not it's not the same kind of behavior we'd be doing in
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in meet space necessarily, and it leads people to kind of, you know, slightly different behavior. And then they're unable to then necessarily separate what they do online with,
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you know, what they do in these space, but then maybe forget to associate their real ID with it, that kind of thing. So I think, you know,
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things have redefined in the last few years.
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I think the other thing I'd just say is kind of what I leave you the point with. I mean, you know, you, on that tweet, you put a large grid
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with all the different messengers and all the kind of, you know, information shared. And I think just to flash back on the screen earlier, there was a comparison, right, this one as well with all the, you know, different features.
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These things can be pretty intimidating for people and can look,
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you know, you know, some people won't necessarily know what all the meanings are behind everything as well.
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I would say that despite, you know, the need to be cryptographic expert in some cases to verify some of this, at the end of the day, I think a lot of you a lot of this can be done with just gut feeling.
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You know, asking me a question, you know, who am I actually messaging? Who's actually seeing this data? And you don't need to be it's gonna be proficient to necessarily ask those questions
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and have those answers. Well, I mean, I think it's not black and white. Right? I don't want people to be overwhelmed.
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And I say this a lot on on our other show, Robert Hole Recap, is I don't want people to be overwhelmed. You can make incremental improvements.
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Absolutely. Said, if you have if you have an Amazon Alexa, unplug the Amazon Alexa. If you're sending text messages,
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use an encrypted messenger. Now is it gonna be the best encrypted messenger?
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Maybe not, you know, but it's a step up in in the right direction, and then you can improve from there.
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One of the things I like about this show is I think not enough people focus on actionable discussion,
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things that that the freaks can actually,
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use and and tangibly hold.
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Yeah. There's a lot of philosophical filler out there, and and I just really want to dig right in.
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So, I mean, the 3 of us were chilling. I mean, you're you're in Singapore, Max, so it's it's your morning, but, you know, it's like happy hour. We're meeting up with the boys.
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We we mentioned,
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Signal had their best week ever in the history of Signal.
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They had they went from, like, 10,000,000 users to, like, 50,000,000 users because of WhatsApp's,
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privacy policy change. And it's pretty funny, like, these things, like, did anyone really think Facebook took privacy,
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you know, seriously? No. But, like, one day, like, you have a a a mass movement happened because
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of of some privacy policy change. And and I think as privacy advocates, it's important that we just,
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take advantage of of of of every mass movement we have.
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This is how people learn. They get burned, they wake up, and then they go seek out knowledge. They go seek out improvement.
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So with that said, Diverter,
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is signal secure? Should people be using it?
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Yes.
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Yes. Signal should be, used. Now is signal secure? I mean, look. We can we can break down all types of,
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what metadata leaks and and all that stuff. At the end of the day,
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is signal more secure messenger
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than SMS?
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Yes.
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Hands down. Objection just yes. Period.
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So a lot of this, which I'm learning
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a lot as I go along too is, you know, more regional than what I thought.
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So SMS, for example, you know, that's basically that's that's your standard communication in the United States. You know, everything
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all my text, I I text SMS SMS.
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So
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replace
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your default SMS messenger on your phone with a with a single click.
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I mean, that's that's leaps and bounds
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head of everything. As I've said before,
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it doesn't really how secure your messenger is if nobody else that you talk to uses it. Who cares?
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So, you know, like you said, you've got the WhatsApp policy change, and then you get a Elon Musk tweet,
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people to use signal,
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and boom, people sign up. You know? Meanwhile,
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people that have been over here screaming in the corner for to use signal for 3 years,
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you know, nobody's listening, and then one Eli tweet sends them. But
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exactly what
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said you gotta take times right now when people are starting to to look up and say, well, wait. Facebook is collecting way too much. Why am I giving them all this stuff?
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And they they see a celebrity tweeting out. They join on. They realize it's really easy. Now when I when I load in, I I pop in and it gives me a little pop up message. It says, do you wanna replace your default SMS? Yes. Yes. I do.
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Boom. Now you're using an encrypted messenger with your mom, your dad, your, you know, your daughter, your son, your cousin, whoever,
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not just your Bitcoin bros.
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That's the big difference to me, and why I I really like signal a lot.
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So let's unpack this a little bit. I mean, first of all, one thing you mentioned, which I think is is a massive improvement with signal, is if you're an Android user, you can set it as your default text message client. So non Americans
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might not be as aware of this as Americans, but as Diverter said in America,
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we have a problem. We use SMS still. I I don't in most places of the world, they don't.
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SMS is basically a postcard. When you send it, every third party in the middle of that transact of that message getting sent is seeing it. They they see it completely.
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On iPhone,
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American iPhone users,
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their Imessage defaults to encryption, and we can get into the nuances there.
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You know, it's it's there's plenty of trade offs with Imessage, and we will get into the nuances.
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But for Android users, they don't have something like that. And now signal comes along, they can use as their default messaging app. IPhone users still are using it as a separate messaging app, but together they they can they can, communicate.
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One one thing I wanna unpack there is is Elon's tweet kind of sent the ball rolling. Right? And we were talking about earlier,
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like explaining trade offs to users and and making them under trying to help them understand why they need this and where to where their perspective should be. What
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there's still a benefit there, right, from from Elon just saying use signal, just, like, eat this fish. You know? Like, I I think we need that too. Right? Am I am I wrong here?
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No. No. A 100%.
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You know, I I who expects Elon? Elon's not gonna get on Twitter and say, no. Here's the reason you should do this. He's gonna he's gonna pop in and say, hey. Like you said, eat this fish, man. It's good. And he's going on the back of this list. Now
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rest of us are Elon's a mess. What you know, hey. Everybody's got a role to play. My role to play is not I'm not Elon. I can't just hop on. I don't have that type of so I can't hop on and say, hey, man. It should be using Jamie or Briar or whatever
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obscure but what I can do is kinda hang around. I can hang around in the comments. I can hang around on
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Telegram, and I keep the cops in
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says, hey. I saw I saw that Elon Musk signal. Why? Boom. Now here's where you here's your end. So, yes, I I a 100% agree. Take take advantage of all those.
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Max,
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hit us with your opinion.
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So, you know, I completely agree with with Diverter.
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I've got, just 6 reservations with Singapore.
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So, yeah. So first off, though, I said, yes. It's secure. And, definitely, yes. It's an improvement over
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not only people using SMS, but also I think it's a huge improvement over people using WhatsApp,
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or Imessage just because the variety of issues there.
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But a few things to kinda just point out.
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And so one, when people talk about signal, they typically think of the phone app, and I think that that is very secure. And I think it's,
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it sits in a good place,
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on the at the OS level typically,
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and it makes it secure.
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I don't have the same kind of faith in the desktop app, and I think I believe well, there definitely been historical security issues,
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with the desktop app,
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you know, with kind of exploits with, extracting text,
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out of the out of the desktop app when it was paired to the mobile.
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So, I think you kind of increase your
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your risk somewhat,
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by taking the convenience there.
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My other kind of issue a bit with signal
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is the fact that it's SMS based.
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So I think that provide you know, gives you a couple of challenges there. One is the the identity aspect.
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Just the fact that you very much typically trust, just for, you know, the general user, you trust someone that you already have their number stored with, As we know, like, SIM hijacking, but also just the fact that, you know, maybe someone that you haven't spoken to for a while has let their their number expire. Certainly in Asia and Singapore, you know, the phone numbers get recycled pretty quickly.
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So it's not unusual for me to look through my my address, but the contact find out of the link
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and see some pretty, you know, startling,
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profile pic changes.
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But often for most people, they wouldn't necessarily notice,
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that a contact would change even with,
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you know,
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warnings over key pairs changing and all that. They wouldn't necessarily understand the cryptograph is behind that and just very fabulous based on SS SMS identity
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is an issue.
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So I think that's kind of one other issue, and that's not to say that it's it's a bad thing. It's just it's a trade off.
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The other thing is the fact that the 2 FA, I don't think many people know to set it. And I'm not talking about necessarily the PIN, that you agree to get in, but, you know, just the fact that someone does have your number, being able to,
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ensure that anyone does sim jack you, that they don't actually, you know,
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take the whole account away from you.
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And then, like, lastly, and this is particularly for Android users,
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yes, the
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the app the phone app is secure, but and I think I should saw this in the comments on Twitter as well.
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But I have huge concerns with, the keyboards on Android, and particularly Google Keyboard. And,
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I've had very kind of, you know, peep yeah. What we consider noise, people that are interested in privacy and security to the same level,
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complain to me directly.
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How come I get adverts on something I chatted with someone over a secure messenger?
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And how is someone able to get relevant ads? And the only thing I can possibly think of is is that one of the parties are using Android keyboard,
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information is going back to Google servers. So before you even get the information encrypted, before it actually travels through the app, you're already giving everything out clear text
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and assigned to probably an IP address and a MAC address,
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and, you know, baked into your digital profile.
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So that along with your general endpoint security means that, yes, signal is secure, but you need to think about
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what OS you're using on, what kind of device you're using on, and, obviously, who you're communicating with, both for verifying and for their own technically and technical hygiene practices.
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I just wanted to say, like, this is why I have friends on the show, because I love to fuck with you guys.
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Like, obviously,
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asking the question, is signal secure,
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was meant to be provocative,
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because that
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that that question,
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lacks 0 lacks all nuance whatsoever,
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and and can't actually have an absolute answer.
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All these things do have trade offs.
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The phone number question is is a very interesting one.
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The
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I mean, I think that comes from America,
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just the fact that
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we're so used to I mean, I guess I mean, you're Singapore. You're an expat from Britain. You're used to using phone numbers as identifier too.
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Yeah. It plugs into that that network effect, that network graph that already exists with WhatsApp and SMS and Imessage.
387
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But, obviously, it has major issues,
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in terms of privacy. I mean, you mentioned that your phone book never changes, that you keep that database.
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I mean, that means that not only are you trusting every single corporation that has interacted with your phone number,
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you're also trusting your friends
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that you've ever met ever and gave them your phone number that they haven't, you know, leaked it themselves.
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Yeah. I mean, just on that, just to dive in, like, a few years ago, I remember. And I didn't you know, I've never seen it talked about since. But there was an app that you could download
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and, it would essentially import your entire contact list.
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And, the idea was that it was a smart app for people that couldn't manage their contacts.
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So it would essentially
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grab all your contact list,
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cross reference to everyone else's contact list that they were grabbing,
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and then provide you, like, with a a suggested contact name. So the kind of the idea was is to provide, you know, people that were absolute disasters with personal, you know, management of contacts,
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an idea who was calling them. And people were signing up with these apps. I think they possibly did get banned from the from the from the various app stores or whatever, but they hoovered up all sorts of contact data. So, of course, like, when you give out your phone number to your friends, which is completely natural thing to do,
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you know, the metadata is a complete bitch. You're gonna get that you know, you're gonna get your mates,
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give away your phone number to all sorts of other apps and things. I mean, we know that with Telegram that it grabs all your app, all your contacts, and shares amongst everyone.
402
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So it's a real problem, the phone number identity, because we we don't have a, you know, decentralized
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identity,
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and nothing that's, aside from the email, I suppose,
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that pretty much everyone you can guarantee has.
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And so on top of that, you know, you see so so, basically, what we have is we have a convenience for security and privacy trade off.
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And and we're always gonna be up against that trade off. Right? And signal tries to
408
00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:55.735
deal with it in their own way. They try and make it as approachable as possible while not compromising on privacy, but, ultimately, they they do have to compromise on on privacy elements there. One element is,
409
00:31:56.769 --> 00:31:59.830
is that phone number, which by the way, they say they do not store.
410
00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:03.590
They only are sent a hash of your number,
411
00:32:04.465 --> 00:32:11.524
that we can verify that they only send a hash of the number because it's open source software. This is why open source is important when people say
412
00:32:12.029 --> 00:32:20.850
things are done locally. You need to be able to verify that they're done locally. When Apple says Imessage encrypts locally and they don't have a key, there's no way for us to verify that.
413
00:32:21.965 --> 00:32:24.625
There's some nuance here that if you download it through,
414
00:32:25.965 --> 00:32:39.475
one of the app stores, you know, there's no way to verify the signal that you downloaded is the same as the code that you can build yourself. But if you run Android, technically, you can. But see, there's all these different levels of nuance here. One thing you mentioned
415
00:32:40.095 --> 00:32:40.595
was,
416
00:32:42.335 --> 00:32:47.635
I I guess you called it 2 factor. I think they call it SIM lock where, like, you lock it to your phone number.
417
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:54.820
Yeah. If someone ports your phone number, which Bitcorners know very well, these SIM jackings where they they take your phone number,
418
00:32:55.255 --> 00:33:02.554
they can obviously then start communicating with your signal contacts without without you knowing and without the signal contact realizing.
419
00:33:02.970 --> 00:33:05.390
Now signal has 2 protections in place there.
420
00:33:06.170 --> 00:33:12.030
That attacker does not actually get your messages, which is a big win. They don't get historical messages.
421
00:33:13.185 --> 00:33:17.125
And everyone you communicated with gets a little message that says your key pair changed.
422
00:33:17.425 --> 00:33:18.245
That's interesting.
423
00:33:18.945 --> 00:33:22.590
That's where we get to the issue. Right? Where eat this fish doesn't work.
424
00:33:22.970 --> 00:33:25.070
Right? The the user needs to know
425
00:33:25.850 --> 00:33:35.635
what that means when they see the key pair change. Most users see that and they're the last thing they're thinking is, okay, my friend my friend just got hacked and now I'm talking to a hacker. Right?
426
00:33:37.215 --> 00:33:38.195
Right. Yeah.
427
00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:41.211
Yeah. Exactly. Oh, I I
428
00:33:42.184 --> 00:33:44.380
well, actually, I guess I sent
429
00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:45.659
out a toot
430
00:33:46.045 --> 00:33:47.665
the other day because I
431
00:33:48.605 --> 00:33:49.105
was
432
00:33:50.045 --> 00:33:51.405
on, Bitcoin, Anthony.
433
00:33:52.045 --> 00:33:58.360
But, you know, just a couple of things because, you know, we got a lot of new signal users coming in. So, you know, a couple of things that
434
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:05.785
that I think people should be aware of. Max brought up an excellent one, about the keyboard and, you know, the actual OS that you're running on.
435
00:34:06.885 --> 00:34:09.765
That's one of the go in and do in signal is you can,
436
00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:11.800
request an incognito
437
00:34:12.100 --> 00:34:12.600
keyboard.
438
00:34:13.140 --> 00:34:16.280
So you can request that, your keyboard not,
439
00:34:17.140 --> 00:34:23.935
log this stuff. Now does that mean that your keyboard is not gonna be logged in anymore? Not necessarily. No. Do not rely on that.
440
00:34:25.355 --> 00:34:28.600
I would much rather see people switch from using,
441
00:34:29.620 --> 00:34:35.160
like, a g board or a Google board or what just something like, you know, an open board or any soft,
442
00:34:36.015 --> 00:34:40.515
something I've I've gotten quite fond of. Max actually introduced me to, TesterCube,
443
00:34:41.375 --> 00:34:43.234
which has open PGP integrated.
444
00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:48.440
But, you know, things that that's a big deal. It shouldn't be overlooked.
445
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:54.119
The the registration lock for your number, it it definitely shouldn't be overlooked.
446
00:34:54.565 --> 00:34:55.705
My personal opinion,
447
00:34:56.165 --> 00:34:58.025
I think that should be on by default,
448
00:34:59.045 --> 00:35:00.505
which is where, you know,
449
00:35:01.340 --> 00:35:06.080
I kinda run through a few of these apps is what can you default away from the user,
450
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:08.000
and what
451
00:35:08.875 --> 00:35:12.335
can't you do, you know, based off security and convenience
452
00:35:12.635 --> 00:35:15.855
trade offs. It's such a So what do you want by default? I mean,
453
00:35:16.430 --> 00:35:27.775
this is this is where this is where most people get into arguments with signal. It's like where where they've decided on the default. So you're saying that they should default to that incognito keyboard mode at least. Right?
454
00:35:28.555 --> 00:35:30.494
The I I the incognito
455
00:35:31.780 --> 00:35:32.280
mode,
456
00:35:33.380 --> 00:35:36.760
the registration, I would love to see both of those default on.
457
00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:39.080
And
458
00:35:40.744 --> 00:35:41.724
I would love
459
00:35:42.265 --> 00:35:43.484
information fed
460
00:35:45.144 --> 00:35:46.285
to the user PIN,
461
00:35:47.144 --> 00:35:59.085
not just putting on, you know, a a a, a what is it? 6 to 8 digit, PIN number that you actually can a good strong alphanumeric pen right there, you know, 25, 30,
462
00:35:59.405 --> 00:36:00.385
random characters
463
00:36:01.165 --> 00:36:12.100
that you can use a really good strong PIN number. That way, if somebody does port your phone number and try to go over and you have registration lock on and they're asked for this PIN, that it's not just, you know,
464
00:36:13.964 --> 00:36:15.664
a a matter of the brute force.
465
00:36:16.285 --> 00:36:23.860
So, you know, yeah, I I I would like to see a little bit more of the defaults on, but I feel like they're pretty close right now to where they need to be.
466
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.340
So just just to be clear here,
467
00:36:29.395 --> 00:36:34.615
your your audio broke up a little bit. Were you saying TesterCube? I've used TesterCube before, which is mobile PGP.
468
00:36:35.875 --> 00:36:40.590
TesterCube has a keyboard as well that that has the, like, PGP built into the keyboard?
469
00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:42.270
Yeah. It does.
470
00:36:42.810 --> 00:36:44.010
Well, that's dope. Yeah.
471
00:36:45.050 --> 00:36:47.869
Yeah. And it makes it really easy to use PGP.
472
00:36:48.325 --> 00:36:51.145
It really does. Max has actually introduced me to it.
473
00:36:52.005 --> 00:36:52.325
Yeah.
474
00:36:52.805 --> 00:36:58.270
Coinsure has introduced me to TesterCube. TesterCube is one of the easiest way to use PGP. I didn't know about the keyboard.
475
00:36:58.890 --> 00:37:03.310
Just to be clear, all these all these freaks that are that are using Tim Apple's products,
476
00:37:04.494 --> 00:37:06.755
In Android land, we can change our keyboard.
477
00:37:07.295 --> 00:37:07.695
I see
478
00:37:08.335 --> 00:37:12.035
iOS as well. Oh, you can now? Yeah. You can. Yeah. So I have
479
00:37:12.430 --> 00:37:15.329
both iOS and Android and, it works very well.
480
00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:16.109
Volr.
481
00:37:16.589 --> 00:37:18.349
So just just keep in mind,
482
00:37:18.670 --> 00:37:19.490
though that
483
00:37:20.245 --> 00:37:25.465
that once again, it's the convenience for security and privacy trade off. These keyboards suck in comparison to,
484
00:37:26.965 --> 00:37:29.550
the the the corporate surveillance ones. Yeah.
485
00:37:31.470 --> 00:37:33.410
I mean Yeah. So just to build
486
00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:35.950
on just to build on diverse point,
487
00:37:36.430 --> 00:37:40.175
so I kinda got a couple of points to stay on the whole kind of privacy defaults.
488
00:37:41.035 --> 00:37:46.175
Number 1 is probably this is why the is not running a multinational company and making millions
489
00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:53.740
because he's not been thinking of stuff apart from the customer and customer service part of it. And I think the other thing is,
490
00:37:56.415 --> 00:38:01.715
you know, we can be a bit paranoid now, but I think there is reason to believe that the big tech companies,
491
00:38:02.299 --> 00:38:03.359
especially people behind,
492
00:38:03.740 --> 00:38:05.520
Tech Messengers, I, yeah,
493
00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:11.355
I think you'd be foolish to think that this doesn't happen is that they don't get friendly visits,
494
00:38:11.755 --> 00:38:13.674
from law enforcement. And I don't mean anything,
495
00:38:15.595 --> 00:38:16.734
aggressive or
496
00:38:17.529 --> 00:38:20.910
or horrendous threats or anything like that, but I think they're in nuggets.
497
00:38:21.450 --> 00:38:31.185
And I think that that certainly happened with Apple and their iCloud backups. I think there are obviously usability challenges as well. But I think that if you are a
498
00:38:31.805 --> 00:38:34.945
centralized entity and you, managing, like, a messenger
499
00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:37.490
application and you are in a certain jurisdiction,
500
00:38:38.109 --> 00:38:40.450
there's a good chance that you get suggestions
501
00:38:41.069 --> 00:38:43.089
and you get pushed in the same direction,
502
00:38:44.195 --> 00:38:49.255
by by those folk, to maybe not include certain features or not include certain defaults,
503
00:38:50.275 --> 00:38:52.135
to make our enforcement's job easier.
504
00:38:55.460 --> 00:39:02.515
03 January 09 asked if the Graphene default keyboard is is solid. Yeah. The Graphene default keyboard is any soft keyboard.
505
00:39:03.295 --> 00:39:04.255
Obviously, if if you
506
00:39:05.455 --> 00:39:11.620
What was that? I thought it was another one. I thought you had to install any soft separately. I thought Graphene came with its own keyboard.
507
00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:21.625
Oh, maybe. Whatever. The Graphene keyboard is a solid keyboard For sure. In terms in terms of private it's an open source keyboard. I've maybe I'm incorrect on the one you chose.
508
00:39:22.725 --> 00:39:25.865
But but, obviously, you know, this is where we get back into,
509
00:39:26.720 --> 00:39:29.940
we have the freaks that have Alexa, and then we have the freaks,
510
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:37.045
that are asking me questions like that. Yes. Your your best option is obviously to run a graphene or or copper headphone.
511
00:39:38.305 --> 00:39:45.125
Though those go insane with the defaults. All their defaults are, you know, privacy first, UX second.
512
00:39:45.750 --> 00:39:47.369
And they do a decent balance,
513
00:39:47.670 --> 00:39:54.490
with that trade off. I think it's a fairly reasonable trade off for the average person to make. You're you're not giving up that much.
514
00:39:55.184 --> 00:39:57.365
Obviously, you're giving up Google services,
515
00:39:57.744 --> 00:39:59.125
because that's the whole point.
516
00:39:59.905 --> 00:40:09.320
But short of that, it's not like you have an unusable phone. Most apps, that you get used to still work and obviously, you have a full fully functioning Chromium browser there,
517
00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:18.565
where you can use, like, pretty much any web app. And all these services have web apps. Like, if you're still attached to Twitter and you wanna use Twitter, for instance, just use the web app, it works.
518
00:40:18.945 --> 00:40:19.445
Absolutely.
519
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:28.140
And and the freaks probably know, but I have a guide for Graphene on on TFTC dot TV on our YouTube channel. I also have it on my Keybase page hosted on Keybase.
520
00:40:29.075 --> 00:40:32.214
So I I wanna let let's jump into Imessage
521
00:40:32.595 --> 00:40:34.214
since I think you brought it up,
522
00:40:34.755 --> 00:40:38.170
with them getting pressured on the cloud backups. I mean, I I think,
523
00:40:39.130 --> 00:40:41.069
an important thing people say to me
524
00:40:44.329 --> 00:40:45.470
shout out to Elmo.
525
00:40:45.849 --> 00:40:47.630
People people say to me,
526
00:40:48.185 --> 00:40:48.685
that,
527
00:40:51.545 --> 00:40:56.525
you know, why why are you so hard on these companies and Bitcoin about going against KYC?
528
00:40:57.350 --> 00:41:00.170
Why are you so hard on on on companies like Apple,
529
00:41:00.630 --> 00:41:01.770
eroding our privacy?
530
00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:04.010
Companies like Google eroding our privacy.
531
00:41:04.855 --> 00:41:09.355
And I'm realistic. Like, I know that regulations are forcing them to. I know that we have,
532
00:41:10.135 --> 00:41:12.795
you know, the Snowden the Snowden, releases
533
00:41:13.095 --> 00:41:15.530
showed us that that companies are being,
534
00:41:16.490 --> 00:41:21.230
forced to do things behind closed doors that we we're not even made aware of. Yeah.
535
00:41:22.194 --> 00:41:42.285
But, you know, that's fine, and they're gonna, you know, they're gonna do them, and and and it's important for us to do us and assume and assume the correct assumptions. And the assumption should be that all of these guys are getting pressured and that all of these guys are gonna bend the knee, and you have to work out from there. If they don't bend the knee, if they don't compromise you and they don't, you know,
536
00:41:42.665 --> 00:41:47.325
go behind your back, then consider that a win, but you have to assume that they're going to. So
537
00:41:47.640 --> 00:41:51.260
so what what what what is our concern here with Imessage?
538
00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:56.125
You know, Max, you mentioned it first. You know, why why don't you just dive right in here?
539
00:41:56.445 --> 00:41:59.345
So, so I think Imessage is probably alright,
540
00:41:59.965 --> 00:42:06.800
actually, compared to the rest of the Icloud ecosystem. So, I actually to be honest, I try to avoid it despite having used iOS,
541
00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:18.505
before going Android for about 10 years, and I had you know, I use macOS as my personal computer mostly. So I'm kinda quite well baked into the system, but I actually just avoid it mostly because I don't like the,
542
00:42:19.785 --> 00:42:21.550
I don't like the closed garden aspect.
543
00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:25.410
So there's only literally, like, one person I regularly contact,
544
00:42:25.950 --> 00:42:26.610
on Imessage.
545
00:42:28.110 --> 00:42:28.610
But
546
00:42:29.315 --> 00:42:31.734
but I think so from my understanding,
547
00:42:32.115 --> 00:42:35.494
again, I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that there's a private key,
548
00:42:36.115 --> 00:42:37.234
created and stored in the
549
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:39.480
on a device key chain.
550
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:40.460
So,
551
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:54.345
I actually can't remember now kind of quite what the issue is. But the reality is is, like, I've actually got so little interest in even looking at what security model is we have behind Imessage because, 1, everything's so baked into Icloud. 2, it's all closed source anyway.
552
00:42:54.940 --> 00:42:58.560
And 3, you know, you you're on a closed source operating system
553
00:42:58.940 --> 00:43:08.345
and have the account base. So even if there were a bunch of assurances is that the, you know, that the the messages could only be decrypted locally, I wouldn't trust it.
554
00:43:09.365 --> 00:43:11.365
And I think kind of we know for sure, like,
555
00:43:12.160 --> 00:43:18.740
there was a I think it's probably a couple years ago now, but there was a terrorist incident for the first time that that Apple really got into
556
00:43:19.175 --> 00:43:20.795
a bit of a showdown with the FBI.
557
00:43:21.335 --> 00:43:23.975
We we know now that almost immediately the,
558
00:43:24.375 --> 00:43:35.230
Apple was subpoenaed. And I think the feds pretty much had everything they wanted from the the last, iCloud backup. They went for the phone. They still went for the president. They still went for the it was the San Bernardino.
559
00:43:37.275 --> 00:43:46.350
Yeah. They still won America. Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, you could also I mean, again, you can be a bit paranoid, but were they using that to pretend they were going for the president
560
00:43:46.650 --> 00:43:49.630
and making you know, if you negotiate with someone, right,
561
00:43:50.970 --> 00:43:56.825
you would ask for more than you can get. And then you if you were to walk back, you could then look as reasonable.
562
00:43:57.285 --> 00:44:01.545
And maybe all that was a show to kind of hide quite how much they were going for,
563
00:44:02.165 --> 00:44:03.830
what they can get at the cloud
564
00:44:04.290 --> 00:44:04.850
level. And,
565
00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:08.950
you know, I think it's I think it's disappointing how much people,
566
00:44:09.410 --> 00:44:14.964
especially in the infosec and the cryptography space, have really heavily chilled messengers that are,
567
00:44:16.065 --> 00:44:20.484
and companies like Google and Apple because they're reputable and they've got decent
568
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:26.819
traffic security. But, you know, like, the default is really put your data there. The two main issues,
569
00:44:27.279 --> 00:44:29.299
with both WhatsApp and
570
00:44:30.625 --> 00:44:31.125
Imessage
571
00:44:31.905 --> 00:44:35.285
is that they're not they're that they're closed source, so we can't verify.
572
00:44:35.745 --> 00:44:36.245
Yeah.
573
00:44:37.265 --> 00:44:43.210
We can't verify what's happening there, and they both default to cloud backups that are unencrypted.
574
00:44:44.070 --> 00:44:47.050
And there's no reasonable reason to do that.
575
00:44:47.625 --> 00:44:58.470
Apple will say to you that the reason they do it is because they don't want people to lose their messages if they inevitably lose their password because people do lose their passwords. But, I mean, it's just their messages. Like, I don't think,
576
00:45:00.130 --> 00:45:17.770
like, I I I I you should at least, you know, give you I it's a bullshit reason. The real reason is they want a back door. They want an easily accessible back door. It's almost even easier than having the phone back door because it'll it's even the data is sitting on their servers, so you can destroy your phone and they still have all the data,
577
00:45:18.550 --> 00:45:20.730
ready for a subpoena to hand that over.
578
00:45:21.270 --> 00:45:22.970
And it's the same deal with WhatsApp.
579
00:45:23.725 --> 00:45:30.465
And then and then Imessage has one other issue is that the the the type of encryption they use is, like, bare minimum.
580
00:45:31.160 --> 00:45:35.500
And there's been some questions of of why they don't use a more hardened, algo there.
581
00:45:36.359 --> 00:45:49.790
But, I mean, I think that's probably neither here nor there. I I don't think they're trying to undermine the algo when they just have everything in plain text sitting on their cloud service by default. Agree. One thing I would say, though, on the on the it's just their messages.
582
00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:51.230
I think you
583
00:45:51.530 --> 00:45:55.790
I think you still need to factor in what what regular people do with their messages.
584
00:45:56.615 --> 00:45:57.115
And
585
00:45:57.495 --> 00:46:05.835
there are people like, there's a lot of users that get pretty sentimental about their messages. And when you're looking at something like Icloud or for that reason, any other
586
00:46:06.600 --> 00:46:09.180
cloud storage system like a kind of the Google Suite
587
00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:11.020
is is that
588
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:29.580
people are completely giving themselves over to those corporations. So they're storing you know, they'll have a, you know, a new baby and then they you know, that first couple of year where they're nonstop taking pictures will all be sitting on servers. And these people would be absolutely devastated if they lose their their single device and they can't get access to those messages.
589
00:46:30.414 --> 00:46:35.154
They'd rather a Chinese they'd rather a randomized Chinese company log their child's face
590
00:46:35.454 --> 00:46:38.914
into their face analysis software than potentially lose the photo.
591
00:46:39.310 --> 00:46:39.810
Correct.
592
00:46:40.350 --> 00:46:42.050
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
593
00:46:42.910 --> 00:46:46.290
Diverter, I feel you fuming over there. You got anything to add for us?
594
00:46:47.815 --> 00:46:52.555
No. The I especially on the on the I'm I I default to max to all,
595
00:46:53.734 --> 00:46:54.234
iOS
596
00:46:55.790 --> 00:46:57.090
questions and services,
597
00:46:57.630 --> 00:46:59.070
Android ads, my
598
00:47:00.830 --> 00:47:05.175
so yeah. No. I'll just sit back and listen. One thing I will say, I I wanted, on the,
599
00:47:05.875 --> 00:47:08.455
actual, like, subpoenas and stuff, that's one thing
600
00:47:08.915 --> 00:47:10.695
about signal, what we have
601
00:47:11.450 --> 00:47:17.390
seen on signal, you know, when they talk about what they keep, what they don't keep, what they're what they turn over and what they're not.
602
00:47:18.089 --> 00:47:22.465
One of the good things about signal is we we actually have evidence of that. I mean, it happened,
603
00:47:24.525 --> 00:47:30.250
granted it was a few years back. You can see this on their sites, couple other places, but they were subpoenaed,
604
00:47:30.869 --> 00:47:31.690
for information,
605
00:47:32.950 --> 00:47:34.490
for 2 phone numbers.
606
00:47:34.950 --> 00:47:36.170
One of the phone numbers
607
00:47:36.555 --> 00:47:38.735
was a signal phone number. The other one wasn't.
608
00:47:40.715 --> 00:47:41.215
Obviously,
609
00:47:41.515 --> 00:47:43.535
they couldn't really give a a signal number.
610
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:45.820
The one that was what they handed over,
611
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:46.780
was
612
00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:48.120
the date,
613
00:47:48.520 --> 00:47:50.140
that the account was created
614
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:56.045
and the the the last time that that account had hooked up to the signal servers.
615
00:47:56.505 --> 00:47:57.405
And that was it.
616
00:47:59.010 --> 00:48:03.330
So, you know, we we can see that when they're asked to turn over what they
617
00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:08.275
that's when your question comes, you know, what do they what do they,
618
00:48:08.655 --> 00:48:10.275
harvest from you by default?
619
00:48:11.455 --> 00:48:13.315
And I know you shared the screenshot,
620
00:48:13.775 --> 00:48:15.700
I think earlier or in the tweet about,
621
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:21.540
Apple where they are now giving you all the data that's linked to you on
622
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.420
the different messengers and the different app, and it basically
623
00:48:24.965 --> 00:48:30.745
shows enough for Signum. Obviously, there's a tie to it, so, you know, we can talk about misleading that maybe.
624
00:48:31.445 --> 00:48:32.585
But the main
625
00:48:33.620 --> 00:48:36.440
if they're not storing any information about you,
626
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:41.080
they everything they've got, they just don't have it.
627
00:48:42.575 --> 00:48:48.195
Well, let's so I I have the I have the the doc, shown about what's linked to you,
628
00:48:48.655 --> 00:48:53.140
on the screen right now. I don't know if if you can see because you're you're coming in through mobile.
629
00:48:53.680 --> 00:48:57.540
Just just for the freaks out there, that's how dedicated diverter is. He's coming in through mobile.
630
00:48:59.599 --> 00:48:59.760
The
631
00:49:00.545 --> 00:49:03.605
Just I I think a key thing to to what was that?
632
00:49:05.425 --> 00:49:16.955
No. I just said, yeah. Busy week. Been a busy week. Busy week. Always hustling. I love it. You know, so I I think a key thing to keep in mind here, let's unpack it, and we'll double double unpack it,
633
00:49:17.515 --> 00:49:18.975
is first of all, signal
634
00:49:19.435 --> 00:49:25.375
technically isn't storing your phone number. There's they're storing a one way hash of your phone number. And what what a hash function does
635
00:49:25.809 --> 00:49:31.510
is basically if you provide a piece of data, in this case, your phone number, the hash will always be the same.
636
00:49:32.609 --> 00:49:51.599
But if you have the hash, you can't reverse engineer it to find the phone number. Now with phone numbers, it's a little bit different because phone numbers are like publicly accessible information. So if you have someone's phone number, you could put it in, find the hash, and know if it's a signal user. And that's, you know, that information they knew that it was a registered signal user. But, technically, on their servers, there's no,
637
00:49:52.655 --> 00:49:57.555
you know, your phone number there and your name, which is why they're saying data not linked to you. Once again, everything,
638
00:49:58.255 --> 00:49:59.075
tons of nuance.
639
00:49:59.935 --> 00:50:04.510
Yes. This is the the situation we wanna be in though is we want,
640
00:50:05.290 --> 00:50:09.230
all these companies defaults to be not collecting personal data.
641
00:50:10.105 --> 00:50:16.045
Are we trusting them? Sure. If it's open source, we can verify, but most people aren't gonna be going through verifiable
642
00:50:16.905 --> 00:50:18.525
means even if it's open source.
643
00:50:19.160 --> 00:50:30.675
So we do have to trust the companies, but at least the company should be outwardly saying their default is to collect as little information as possible and don't have that information to pass on. Now we're fortunately in a situation
644
00:50:31.775 --> 00:50:32.275
where
645
00:50:32.575 --> 00:50:36.035
the most powerful country on Earth, at least to to right now still,
646
00:50:36.335 --> 00:50:36.835
America
647
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:39.220
is fine with that.
648
00:50:40.240 --> 00:50:46.735
They are not making that illegal. They're not making that illegal. They're not saying that signal has to collect, you know, some kind of identifiable
649
00:50:47.035 --> 00:50:48.015
KYC information.
650
00:50:48.555 --> 00:50:52.975
They could. Right? And this is this interesting balance we find ourselves in
651
00:50:53.355 --> 00:50:53.855
where
652
00:50:55.150 --> 00:51:01.490
maybe signal's good enough. Right? But if the powers that be wanna squash it, they could squash it very, very easily.
653
00:51:05.035 --> 00:51:06.335
Oh, yeah. 100 100%.
654
00:51:06.635 --> 00:51:09.295
Sure. And, you know, it's it
655
00:51:09.990 --> 00:51:12.230
Ragnar made a comment the other day, you know, about
656
00:51:13.110 --> 00:51:15.290
basically, if you're not your own ISP,
657
00:51:16.390 --> 00:51:22.615
and, you know, all the infrastructure top to bottom is not your own without, anybody else that can lean on you,
658
00:51:22.994 --> 00:51:24.135
then, you know, it's
659
00:51:25.474 --> 00:51:30.050
they have the ability to come in and and apply so much pressure that even if
660
00:51:30.670 --> 00:51:39.424
you don't, want to bend the knee, it's either, you know, fold it all in or, you know, do what they ask. So, yes, signal is you know, it's a centralized,
661
00:51:40.775 --> 00:51:41.275
company.
662
00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:44.840
US
663
00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:47.560
could come in, lean heavily on,
664
00:51:48.580 --> 00:51:49.960
and, you know, there would be
665
00:51:50.580 --> 00:51:53.240
as of right. Can we rely on that forever? No.
666
00:51:54.755 --> 00:51:59.175
There are some p two p, you know, type apps. Well, we might be able to. That's my point.
667
00:52:01.220 --> 00:52:10.775
Right? Yeah. Sure. Like, we may be able to if if we have powerful governments, allow us allow us. Give us you know, don't don't actively fight centralized
668
00:52:11.155 --> 00:52:16.055
privacy focused organ like, it signals an interesting one. Right? Because it's not even a corporation.
669
00:52:16.600 --> 00:52:18.060
It's backed by a 501c3
670
00:52:18.600 --> 00:52:22.700
that their biggest competitor, WhatsApp, the founder donated a bunch of money,
671
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:26.055
to seed them. He I think he donate it was, like, over a $100,000,000
672
00:52:26.595 --> 00:52:27.815
he donated to them.
673
00:52:28.595 --> 00:52:40.920
So I think it's a very interesting model for a centralized privacy focused initiative in a world that's not completely adversarial. Right? Like, a lot of the things we talk about in Bitcoin land is completely adversarial. Like, we have to worry about
674
00:52:41.425 --> 00:52:48.085
all the way to the nth degree because if they compromise the money at any point, all money is compromised. You know, it's a massive incentive.
675
00:52:48.385 --> 00:52:50.484
But with with with private messaging,
676
00:52:52.750 --> 00:52:57.970
there's there's a middle ground. Right? Like, you you don't necessarily need to go, like, you know, full cypherpunk,
677
00:53:02.515 --> 00:53:03.015
hopefully.
678
00:53:04.835 --> 00:53:08.750
Yeah. I think it depends on kind of what happens over the next few years.
679
00:53:09.710 --> 00:53:11.010
You know, I suppose
680
00:53:11.950 --> 00:53:14.130
I don't see any difference yet with,
681
00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:16.130
the US government's
682
00:53:16.745 --> 00:53:20.285
wish to do mass surveillance. I don't think that's changed from the days of Snowden.
683
00:53:20.825 --> 00:53:22.685
If anything, I think since his,
684
00:53:25.200 --> 00:53:25.940
his revelations,
685
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:30.339
I think he's actually pushed probably that more into the shadows,
686
00:53:33.095 --> 00:53:35.035
you know, at at that level. So
687
00:53:35.415 --> 00:53:37.515
I think there's still a wish for that to do.
688
00:53:38.190 --> 00:53:43.089
I'd actually be I it's hard to say, but I think we haven't yet reached the point where
689
00:53:43.470 --> 00:53:45.810
there's enough in the playback from that power,
690
00:53:46.375 --> 00:53:51.355
to cause the pendulum swing the other way. Yeah. So I think we're probably looking at an increasing,
691
00:53:52.135 --> 00:53:52.635
encroachment
692
00:53:53.015 --> 00:53:53.515
of
693
00:53:54.310 --> 00:53:56.330
the free speech probably over the next few years,
694
00:53:57.109 --> 00:54:03.369
in multiple jurisdictions in the west, not just the US, but, you know, in the EU, UK. And then we're obviously seeing Australia,
695
00:54:04.505 --> 00:54:09.485
put put some pretty tough encryption laws in place. And then, and the UK has got key disclosure laws.
696
00:54:10.185 --> 00:54:21.130
And I think even if they're not constitutionally in the US, I think there's enough to believe yeah. There's already enough that you can see where people are working around the, the law enforcement are working around the
697
00:54:22.105 --> 00:54:34.480
letter of the law and going for other ways to to manage that such as, you know, civil forfeiture, that kind of stuff to, to to to apply pressure in other ways. So I still think, you know, I think for the time being, you you've gotta think adversarially,
698
00:54:35.100 --> 00:54:42.305
in a way because, yeah, the the the the the general direction is is is worse, if if you're looking for more privacy and sovereignty.
699
00:54:42.684 --> 00:54:44.704
Well, I mean, I think you always think adversarially.
700
00:54:45.164 --> 00:54:51.690
Like, you you expect the worst, but but you hope for the best. You know? And I I I think there's something to be said about
701
00:54:52.470 --> 00:54:56.010
us using all the tools at our disposal when they're at our disposal.
702
00:54:56.484 --> 00:55:00.505
You know? So we don't have to go, like, all the way extreme down the,
703
00:55:00.805 --> 00:55:03.945
you know, the censorship resistant trade off scale
704
00:55:04.549 --> 00:55:08.089
until it's absolutely necessary. Like, we can be prepared for it,
705
00:55:09.829 --> 00:55:13.130
but, you know you know, maybe it's not needed. I mean, to compare
706
00:55:13.475 --> 00:55:14.455
your home country,
707
00:55:15.555 --> 00:55:16.855
Great Britain versus
708
00:55:17.235 --> 00:55:20.355
my home country, the US, I mean, we're still
709
00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:27.119
you know, I talk shit about the constitution all the time because I just don't think it offers the kind of protections people think it offers.
710
00:55:27.740 --> 00:55:33.185
Yeah. But but still to this day, like, we don't have to disclose our passwords for encrypted drives. We're protected. Mhmm.
711
00:55:34.365 --> 00:55:40.580
We we still have base free speech, you know, solid free speech protections compared to the rest of the world.
712
00:55:41.220 --> 00:55:48.440
And and organizations like signal can take advantage of that to say all this data is encrypted. We don't know what our users are doing,
713
00:55:49.085 --> 00:55:50.785
and that's constitutionally protected.
714
00:55:51.085 --> 00:55:55.505
And if that's the case, if those tools are available to us, we'd be idiots not to use them.
715
00:55:56.285 --> 00:55:57.025
Hey, Edward.
716
00:55:57.950 --> 00:55:58.450
Yeah.
717
00:55:59.390 --> 00:55:59.890
Absolutely.
718
00:56:00.350 --> 00:56:00.850
That's
719
00:56:01.870 --> 00:56:04.430
the tool is kind of a a a bit of a
720
00:56:05.230 --> 00:56:06.655
it's kinda what I do.
721
00:56:07.195 --> 00:56:08.175
I'm far from,
722
00:56:08.875 --> 00:56:11.455
a security expert, a privacy expert,
723
00:56:11.835 --> 00:56:12.335
cryptographic
724
00:56:12.635 --> 00:56:13.920
expert, any of that. I
725
00:56:14.720 --> 00:56:17.140
myself with people that I feel like are me.
726
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:20.579
I soak up their knowledge, and then I pass it off as my own.
727
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:22.660
Pro tip there.
728
00:56:23.464 --> 00:56:23.964
So
729
00:56:24.585 --> 00:56:25.085
but
730
00:56:26.185 --> 00:56:28.125
do is I get my hands dirty.
731
00:56:29.065 --> 00:56:30.444
I try stuff. Like,
732
00:56:31.625 --> 00:56:34.440
the other day, you've been using it for a while, Matt.
733
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:36.700
I hopped on to 3 month.
734
00:56:37.080 --> 00:56:38.860
Now the 3 month came out as,
735
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:45.244
released everything open source app plans to where the code can be reviewed. They've had a good couple,
736
00:56:45.565 --> 00:56:47.184
security audits recent.
737
00:56:47.885 --> 00:56:51.825
So I wanted to hop on there and see what see what that's like. Is this something that,
738
00:56:52.670 --> 00:56:55.650
you know, has strikes that right balance between privacy
739
00:56:58.120 --> 00:56:58.620
convenience?
740
00:57:00.135 --> 00:57:00.635
Sometimes
741
00:57:01.175 --> 00:57:07.915
something warrants you going ahead and encrypting locally, using your own local PGP encryption before you send it regard
742
00:57:08.829 --> 00:57:09.329
So
743
00:57:10.670 --> 00:57:12.450
like you said, there's so much
744
00:57:12.750 --> 00:57:18.210
nuance and balance and trade off to this whole thing. I mean, bingo boards are lighting up everywhere right now.
745
00:57:18.984 --> 00:57:19.484
Mhmm.
746
00:57:20.744 --> 00:57:27.085
Unpack and and wait or in a single blog post or any of that. I really highly,
747
00:57:28.690 --> 00:57:30.309
advise everyone to
748
00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:33.589
use these things. Get your hands on them. Use them.
749
00:57:34.130 --> 00:57:36.710
See see what, you know, they feel like.
750
00:57:38.355 --> 00:57:39.335
See the difference,
751
00:57:39.795 --> 00:57:48.500
and understand what the different trade offs means so that you can then explain that to the people that you communicate with. That's the way we spread this stuff.
752
00:57:49.040 --> 00:57:52.260
So let let's I agree. Let's let's dive into this then.
753
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:53.780
So so,
754
00:57:54.565 --> 00:57:59.384
I mean, we were in a group chat on Keybase. So twofold. First of all,
755
00:57:59.765 --> 00:58:01.920
he mentioned Prima. We've been talking about signal.
756
00:58:02.620 --> 00:58:05.360
Both allow them to view your key in app,
757
00:58:05.900 --> 00:58:09.120
with a scannable QR code. And the idea there is
758
00:58:09.865 --> 00:58:14.525
the app has already told you that you have a secure connection, whether that's signal or 3 month.
759
00:58:14.905 --> 00:58:21.329
If you scan the QR code through another means, it's important that it's through another means, not through the same app.
760
00:58:22.190 --> 00:58:23.410
Then you have a second,
761
00:58:24.965 --> 00:58:28.905
confirmation. A second confirmation that the key wasn't changed in between,
762
00:58:29.845 --> 00:58:34.025
your your transfer. Right? That transfer of the original key is is super important.
763
00:58:34.950 --> 00:58:38.329
So you're supposed to verify that. Almost in practice, nobody does,
764
00:58:38.630 --> 00:58:38.869
but,
765
00:58:39.750 --> 00:58:44.010
you know, if you're breaking your your lockdown or you live in the same place that doesn't have a lockdown,
766
00:58:44.455 --> 00:58:55.930
verify with your friends that the key is the same. If the key changes, verify again. If you don't have the liberty of seeing them in person, you know, I don't even know what you guys look like. I only know you through online. Confirm through a second messenger at least.
767
00:58:56.309 --> 00:59:02.650
Yeah. Obviously, like, we we can go in-depth on PGP here and we probably will, but that's another nuance thing.
768
00:59:03.295 --> 00:59:06.115
These are little things you can verify, important to do.
769
00:59:06.895 --> 00:59:07.855
Now to go back,
770
00:59:08.175 --> 00:59:10.595
you mentioned, like, we were talking about Treema.
771
00:59:11.270 --> 00:59:15.130
I think this is like a funny little story because I think it's, like, perfectly encapsulates,
772
00:59:18.230 --> 00:59:22.414
what what your how you have to look at privacy. Unfortunately, it's just the reality.
773
00:59:23.275 --> 00:59:25.515
And and, you know, we met
774
00:59:26.315 --> 00:59:27.855
the 3 of us met on Twitter.
775
00:59:28.420 --> 00:59:30.839
We had started conversations on Telegram,
776
00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:45.625
and then we moved to Keybase to be more, you know, more secure. We thought it was a more secure trade off balance. Keybase recently changed their terms of service, and then we had a whole group discussion in Keybase about moving to 3 month. Right? And it's just a constant,
777
00:59:46.270 --> 00:59:47.650
process of just
778
00:59:48.030 --> 00:59:57.825
figuring out the trade offs and assessing the trade offs, assessing the current situation that that we find ourselves in and proceeding forward based on that analysis. Right?
779
01:00:00.045 --> 01:00:03.905
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think, it's a couple of things. It's like,
780
01:00:04.540 --> 01:00:08.880
it's worth playing around, obviously, and trying it. But I think if you're gonna be jumping around messengers,
781
01:00:09.500 --> 01:00:15.335
start doing that with your friends that are more willing to jump around messengers so you don't piss up all your other mates
782
01:00:16.435 --> 01:00:17.335
when you do that.
783
01:00:17.635 --> 01:00:28.570
A few things I've noticed coming in. I mean, I'm yet to see kind of what's like in a large group chat, how it works there. One of the things I've actually noticed already is using signal for large group chats
784
01:00:28.870 --> 01:00:30.490
really sucks. It's not good.
785
01:00:31.435 --> 01:00:32.734
It's just small things,
786
01:00:33.115 --> 01:00:35.855
like not being able to delete media on mass.
787
01:00:36.155 --> 01:00:41.215
So if your phone's kind of running out of space because you're in a large group with people chucking video and pictures in,
788
01:00:42.210 --> 01:00:59.965
you actually you actually can't clean through the, through the app easily unless I've missed a setting, but anything. So, you know, whereas WhatsApp, it has kind of better storage management options and obviously Telegram keeps stuff in the cache. So I think, you know, a big part of it is actually choosing the right messenger for the job, before you kind of, you know, you jump and
789
01:01:01.160 --> 01:01:04.380
and and and make the kind of the attempt to shift your network with it.
790
01:01:09.065 --> 01:01:13.964
You you fucking mentioned it. I have a love hate relationship with them. Let's unpack Telegram.
791
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:16.980
Yeah.
792
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:19.460
Yeah.
793
01:01:20.560 --> 01:01:21.619
Who wants to start?
794
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:23.460
Well,
795
01:01:23.855 --> 01:01:34.720
I'll just say I think Iago had the, most succinct point, which is is that Telegram is social media. It's not video. And that's where you should start from there as I look there. And then Feeds with Twitter
796
01:01:35.020 --> 01:01:36.240
then more than signal?
797
01:01:36.859 --> 01:01:37.760
I think so.
798
01:01:38.220 --> 01:01:44.545
Although having said that, I have had people that are pretty comfortable doing certain things on a on secret message request,
799
01:01:45.165 --> 01:01:47.185
and it works pretty well for that.
800
01:01:48.445 --> 01:01:53.750
Yeah. I think I think the cool thing though is is that what I like about Tay Ramos, what I like is is that
801
01:01:54.370 --> 01:01:56.390
I still think there's a place for
802
01:01:56.930 --> 01:01:59.350
publicly endorsing companies that
803
01:01:59.650 --> 01:02:00.870
at least outwardly,
804
01:02:02.305 --> 01:02:02.945
show us,
805
01:02:04.385 --> 01:02:05.285
show us strength,
806
01:02:05.745 --> 01:02:06.245
against,
807
01:02:06.785 --> 01:02:07.285
coercion,
808
01:02:07.665 --> 01:02:17.329
whether it be from corporations or governments or anything like that. And I think that, yeah, sure. We all know that Durov could really disappoint us. And,
809
01:02:18.935 --> 01:02:23.195
you know, you know, we could find that the empty proto algo has been broken.
810
01:02:23.575 --> 01:02:24.875
The encryption is compromised.
811
01:02:25.390 --> 01:02:33.325
We all like to be done, but at the same time, I think, you know, I think it's a positive move anyway to move away from platforms like Twitter where there's
812
01:02:33.964 --> 01:02:34.464
uneven.
813
01:02:35.165 --> 01:02:39.505
I don't like using the term censorship, but uneven moderation that you disagree with, for example.
814
01:02:39.805 --> 01:02:45.039
Whereas Twitter, I think, is far more liberal in that, and, I think it's far more fair in what they allow platform.
815
01:02:45.339 --> 01:02:53.085
And, actually, you know, like kind of, you know, like you would in the market, you know, avoiding one chunk and takes the other. I don't think we should ask you,
816
01:02:53.485 --> 01:02:54.945
centralized solutions entirely,
817
01:02:55.245 --> 01:02:56.385
and they're great for
818
01:02:56.765 --> 01:02:58.705
putting people into the funnel and getting
819
01:02:59.005 --> 01:03:05.130
used to it. I mean, just bringing friends into a Telegram group from WhatsApp and then being able to search for GIFs,
820
01:03:05.830 --> 01:03:19.400
that were previously banned on WhatsApp and you couldn't find is actually enough of a red pill for some people to get started. That's actually important to know that it's actually still an Internet out there, but they can search something that might not be, you know, endorsed by some,
821
01:03:20.200 --> 01:03:21.420
you know, woke,
822
01:03:22.200 --> 01:03:22.700
SJW
823
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:25.019
type or, or some other heavily
824
01:03:25.665 --> 01:03:28.805
conservative person that doesn't wanna see pornography or anything else.
825
01:03:29.585 --> 01:03:35.500
Oh, yeah. So, you know, I I think, you know, if you if you approach it like social media, you're aware
826
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:40.940
of the concept. I think Telegram's a great messenger, and I think it's fantastic from a user
827
01:03:41.565 --> 01:03:46.445
privacy perspective in terms of policies they have. Obviously, it's not as locked down as,
828
01:03:47.244 --> 01:03:49.265
secure private messages like and
829
01:03:49.565 --> 01:03:53.180
signal, But there's certainly a big improvement over the kind of the
830
01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:55.579
the Google app or Facebook,
831
01:03:56.359 --> 01:03:57.099
you know,
832
01:03:58.385 --> 01:04:02.705
aspect of companies where, you know, so much that information is being shared and,
833
01:04:03.425 --> 01:04:05.025
I don't think has the same degree of,
834
01:04:05.585 --> 01:04:06.565
lockdown there.
835
01:04:07.569 --> 01:04:10.950
Diverter. Why do you loves why do you love Telegram, why do you hate Telegram?
836
01:04:14.464 --> 01:04:14.964
FA
837
01:04:15.505 --> 01:04:17.285
stickers, no end to end encryption.
838
01:04:19.105 --> 01:04:20.565
I I with Max, a 100%
839
01:04:20.865 --> 01:04:25.000
on on the looking at at Telegram as more of a social media
840
01:04:25.460 --> 01:04:27.000
than, a secure messenger.
841
01:04:27.700 --> 01:04:28.200
But
842
01:04:28.580 --> 01:04:30.840
having said that, you know, I I'm a US
843
01:04:31.194 --> 01:04:36.335
based customer. So, you know, again, this is where the SMS stuff comes in. So if I wasn't,
844
01:04:36.954 --> 01:04:42.470
used to communicating with SMS, maybe that would be different. Maybe I would view it different. As it stands right now,
845
01:04:43.089 --> 01:04:46.470
signal to me is basically like having a Telegram
846
01:04:46.849 --> 01:04:49.030
secret chat on all the time.
847
01:04:50.464 --> 01:04:52.565
Telegram, I could go in. I can,
848
01:04:52.944 --> 01:04:57.285
you know, relax and hang out in groups with my friends. We can chat. We can do whatever,
849
01:04:57.600 --> 01:04:59.940
and it's it works great. It's seamless.
850
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:07.425
Great stickers, like I said. That's one of the bonuses I love about signal, was being able to move my Telegram stickers to Cigna.
851
01:05:08.205 --> 01:05:11.505
So that's a big deal for me, you know, when you're dealing with social media apps.
852
01:05:13.965 --> 01:05:15.025
Biggest difference.
853
01:05:15.485 --> 01:05:15.985
But
854
01:05:18.319 --> 01:05:19.619
what's that? Look.
855
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:21.700
Telegram is fucking awesome.
856
01:05:22.240 --> 01:05:26.260
The toolset that they provide you, the features they provide you for free
857
01:05:26.805 --> 01:05:28.025
are fucking fantastic.
858
01:05:29.045 --> 01:05:31.704
Yep. They have no business model whatsoever.
859
01:05:32.325 --> 01:05:41.559
They don't serve you ads. They're sup they Durov, you know, Pavel Durov, the the founder says he doesn't he doesn't scrape all of our information for ads and stuff,
860
01:05:42.019 --> 01:05:48.105
and they provide you up to 2 gigs of files you can send. People host whole movies on Telegram.
861
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:49.820
The
862
01:05:50.165 --> 01:05:55.230
but but some things are too good to be true, and I question myself every day. I wonder,
863
01:05:55.690 --> 01:06:03.525
you know, this guy is either a based fucking billionaire, the Zuckerberg of of of Russia who created Russian Facebook and then
864
01:06:03.825 --> 01:06:06.405
got kicked out of Russia, how to sell and left Russia.
865
01:06:07.010 --> 01:06:08.470
So he's either a base billionaire
866
01:06:08.850 --> 01:06:16.005
or he's in the pocket of one of the intelligence operations because it's like, how is he just spending all this money hosting all my shit for me,
867
01:06:16.964 --> 01:06:23.305
with with no business model whatsoever? And I know now he's got he's launching a business model, but it's just a really interesting
868
01:06:23.980 --> 01:06:31.680
thing and really interesting concept. And at the same time, he's got, you know, his apps. He has a free open source version of Telegram, the client.
869
01:06:33.095 --> 01:06:38.955
There are some questions with their encryption algorithm they chose, but they could have been just cocky about it, you know,
870
01:06:39.930 --> 01:06:42.910
Why why break the encryption? Why give weak encryption
871
01:06:43.530 --> 01:06:50.565
when the overwhelming majority of chats that are happening are just sitting, you know, not intend encrypted on your on your own service.
872
01:06:51.025 --> 01:06:56.245
And then the last thing is, I mean, we saw them recently start censoring channels, and and the issue is
873
01:06:56.830 --> 01:06:57.970
is the same issue,
874
01:06:58.910 --> 01:07:02.050
that we keep seeing is if if these corporations
875
01:07:02.670 --> 01:07:04.370
know what their users are doing,
876
01:07:04.734 --> 01:07:10.994
they they're they have the data to censor. They're gonna be compelled to censor based off of that data.
877
01:07:11.295 --> 01:07:17.130
And and they're gonna be rejected from app stores. And and maybe Telegram's a little bit more resistant than other
878
01:07:17.830 --> 01:07:25.815
apps because they do have, you know, open source versions of their apps. You can get a direct download APK. You can get it from F droid. You they have a web app version.
879
01:07:26.755 --> 01:07:27.494
But ultimately,
880
01:07:28.115 --> 01:07:33.330
he needs to comply with anything Apple or Google tells him do. Otherwise, he's gonna get removed from the app stores.
881
01:07:34.110 --> 01:07:37.250
So so we're starting to see this censorship roll in, and
882
01:07:37.710 --> 01:07:41.025
that brings me to our our other killed darling,
883
01:07:41.805 --> 01:07:43.984
with our love hate relationship, which is Keybase.
884
01:07:45.405 --> 01:07:50.730
And and Keybase has historically been very good about not censoring user content.
885
01:07:51.430 --> 01:07:53.530
They have more sane defaults than Telegram.
886
01:07:54.230 --> 01:07:56.250
It is end to end encrypted by default.
887
01:07:57.155 --> 01:08:03.415
I think it's important for users to realize that these large group chats, it doesn't really matter if it's end to end encrypted because At all. Any
888
01:08:03.795 --> 01:08:08.460
any person in that chat could be a mole. You have 200 people in the chat. One of them is a fucking mole.
889
01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:09.420
Right.
890
01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:11.420
He he needs to log in all the information.
891
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.780
So but so so let's jump into Keybase.
892
01:08:15.295 --> 01:08:20.915
Max, Keybase. Well, let's start with Diverter this time. Diverter, Keybase. Why do you love it? Why do you hate it?
893
01:08:21.775 --> 01:08:23.215
I love Keybase for the,
894
01:08:23.855 --> 01:08:24.515
the Keybase
895
01:08:25.250 --> 01:08:27.910
Spot system, the, the public folders.
896
01:08:29.570 --> 01:08:31.030
Really good feature, underutilized,
897
01:08:31.490 --> 01:08:34.070
I feel like. Used that for a long time.
898
01:08:34.905 --> 01:08:36.125
What I don't like,
899
01:08:36.505 --> 01:08:37.005
is
900
01:08:37.785 --> 01:08:40.605
the recent change to their terms of service where
901
01:08:42.510 --> 01:08:44.770
are very, open to hosting, like
902
01:08:45.230 --> 01:08:45.730
suspense
903
01:08:46.909 --> 01:08:48.530
the 3 d gun printing crowd,
904
01:08:49.469 --> 01:08:50.929
quite a large group there.
905
01:08:52.155 --> 01:08:55.615
And now those terms of service have changed, to explicitly
906
01:08:55.995 --> 01:08:57.295
ban that, which
907
01:08:58.395 --> 01:09:00.895
that's really I I really have a problem,
908
01:09:01.270 --> 01:09:07.530
when we get into stuff like that. I I don't necessarily mind so much if it's illegal in your country. What
909
01:09:07.989 --> 01:09:10.265
I'm gonna say, you know, we have,
910
01:09:10.745 --> 01:09:12.365
advocating for criminals,
911
01:09:12.745 --> 01:09:21.670
to be able to break the law without getting caught. That's not what privacy is about. So if it's illegal in your country, I mean, what, you know, what are you gonna do? But for something that's not illegal,
912
01:09:22.289 --> 01:09:28.905
that's more of, of bending the knee to this, you know, the this this woke movement or whatever you wanna call it,
913
01:09:29.605 --> 01:09:32.425
I I start to have a problem with it. What really
914
01:09:32.804 --> 01:09:37.770
put it over the edge for me is some of the very vague wording that they they began using
915
01:09:38.150 --> 01:09:41.270
on that terms of service, which is similar to the way Twitter goes,
916
01:09:42.470 --> 01:09:43.370
which is basically
917
01:09:44.055 --> 01:09:47.195
blah blah blah and anything otherwise objectionable.
918
01:09:48.055 --> 01:09:56.790
Sure. Now you you find the thing that can't fit in there, and then we'll talk. You know? I I can't be censored then. That's where I really went into a problem.
919
01:10:04.645 --> 01:10:05.625
Just to just
920
01:10:06.085 --> 01:10:08.905
just to add, add fuel to the fire here,
921
01:10:09.739 --> 01:10:14.320
Diverter is one of the admins with me of the largest Bitcoin, Keybase group.
922
01:10:15.660 --> 01:10:20.034
So his his his anger towards Keybase And it was the Keybase account.
923
01:10:22.175 --> 01:10:25.715
Yeah. It is it's coming from a user that has used it significantly.
924
01:10:26.060 --> 01:10:30.320
I mean, I I think I think there's 2 elements here that people should keep in mind with Keybase
925
01:10:30.860 --> 01:10:33.075
is it's a both a messaging app.
926
01:10:33.715 --> 01:10:38.215
I guess it's 3 fold. It's a messaging app. It's an identity layer that ties into PGP,
927
01:10:39.235 --> 01:10:41.015
and your and your social accounts.
928
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:43.820
And it's also a file storage,
929
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:51.545
service, where they provide free file storage. And they were recently bought by Zoom, which is does not have a very privacy track record.
930
01:10:52.725 --> 01:10:55.225
So so I could a 100%, you know,
931
01:10:55.605 --> 01:10:59.625
like, let's be honest here. When you're hosting other people's files, you have massive liability,
932
01:11:00.450 --> 01:11:01.350
public files.
933
01:11:01.890 --> 01:11:03.910
If those are 3 d printed gun files,
934
01:11:05.010 --> 01:11:07.670
you know, I I a 100% support the movement,
935
01:11:08.085 --> 01:11:12.585
but they have massive liability there. That is different than them going after,
936
01:11:12.965 --> 01:11:15.545
encrypted chats so they might not know the actual
937
01:11:16.005 --> 01:11:17.660
what's being discussed in the chat.
938
01:11:18.460 --> 01:11:29.235
And and and this goes back to our previous conversation of when when these companies know what's going on that they can be compelled to censor based on the information they know that's going on. So there's a portion of Keybase's,
939
01:11:31.770 --> 01:11:32.270
Keybase's
940
01:11:32.650 --> 01:11:39.935
offering where they know what's going on, which is those publicly hosted files, which are are known publicly. Anyone downloading them knows what those files are.
941
01:11:40.495 --> 01:11:47.555
And then they have these private chats and their their software is supposed to be end to end encrypted. It's free open source software so you can technically verify
942
01:11:49.080 --> 01:11:50.540
that it is encrypted locally.
943
01:11:51.160 --> 01:11:55.820
Both with with Signal and Keybase, their server is not open source. But because
944
01:11:56.715 --> 01:11:59.855
their client is open source and you know that it's encrypted locally,
945
01:12:00.555 --> 01:12:07.580
it doesn't mat you don't have to technically, you don't have to trust the server with with the actual with the actual privacy of the contents of the information.
946
01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:11.980
So, I mean, it should be interesting to see how that plays out. They have not,
947
01:12:12.725 --> 01:12:22.025
act I don't believe they've actually censored people based off of it. I think with the Biden administration, we're about to see a massive deplatforming of the 3 d gun printing crowd,
948
01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:26.220
and it'll probably be the biggest free speech fight since,
949
01:12:27.080 --> 01:12:27.580
porn,
950
01:12:28.200 --> 01:12:32.125
in the United States, and it should be really interesting to watch how that unfolds.
951
01:12:32.745 --> 01:12:40.205
I was kinda I kinda wanted to unpack here. I just wanted to sit here for a moment and dive in. On the terms of service thing, like, are we,
952
01:12:42.810 --> 01:12:47.070
and this has come up before, specifically in Bitcoin and Wasabi's terms of service.
953
01:12:49.895 --> 01:12:50.395
I
954
01:12:51.815 --> 01:13:02.710
there's an argument to be made that as as privacy focused users, we should look the other way if if someone's terms of service may be is not as ideal as we want it to be,
955
01:13:03.965 --> 01:13:18.350
but they haven't acted on it, and they're kinda just legally covering their ass. Is there is there any nuance there with you guys? Is there any wiggle room that's, like, you know, Keybase says, you know, you can't do anything illegal on our platform, but they don't actually come out swinging?
956
01:13:18.730 --> 01:13:22.655
Like, is is that acceptable or do you we just move no matter what?
957
01:13:26.715 --> 01:13:39.599
Alright. I'll I'll answer this, a couple of points. So I don't wanna dive into it too much, but just on the key based stuff as well. To be honest, I'd already stopped really using it to the same extent just because I felt that since the Zoom takeover, the product hadn't really been developed.
958
01:13:40.065 --> 01:13:56.140
Quite honestly, I'm actually surprised that both, you know, you, Matt, and Deborah are actually still continuing on that Bitcoin group on eBay speakers for me, like, I know just the chat features. I intend to encrypt in group chats just kind of suck a bit. Like, it's I find the client slow, you know, they're a bit bloaty.
959
01:13:56.655 --> 01:13:59.235
Doesn't work to be one of my Android with my end notifications,
960
01:14:00.095 --> 01:14:01.395
because I'm using a USB.
961
01:14:02.575 --> 01:14:08.040
And even on, like, iPhone and, Mac OS, it's it's not great. So to be honest, you know,
962
01:14:08.340 --> 01:14:15.240
the UX for me is sort of big thing. So If I just wanna if I can just jump in there real quick, the 2 big UX things I like about Keybase,
963
01:14:15.565 --> 01:14:22.945
3 big UX things I like about our Keybase Group or Bitcoin Keybase Group is it's it's very difficult for impersonators to impersonate you,
964
01:14:23.409 --> 01:14:29.030
because of their their follow mechanism and the way they link into other social media handles. And that's a major issue,
965
01:14:29.650 --> 01:14:30.949
for more public Bitcoiners,
966
01:14:31.975 --> 01:14:41.650
on Telegram and Twitter where I just have people impersonating me all the time, so it's more difficult for them to do that on Keybase as a platform. I like that I can in the in our supergroup, we can have channels.
967
01:14:42.429 --> 01:14:47.170
I know Diverter was, like, training people on PGP in one of the channels. It's really hard to do that,
968
01:14:47.735 --> 01:14:52.235
in in these in these Telegram groups when they get larger, they get they get kind of unruly.
969
01:14:53.415 --> 01:14:56.690
And then the third thing is I I I like the auto delete. Like,
970
01:14:57.330 --> 01:15:14.855
I I I know it's, like, kind of just a a comfort blanket. It's just it's it's something that if the actual platform is compromised, they're logging all the information anyway. If there's a mole on the group chat, he's logging all the information anyway. But it's just nice to know that every message is just getting deleted from everyone's phones, every 90 days.
971
01:15:15.230 --> 01:15:29.865
Yeah. I mean, I I started getting really excited. Like, when they first came out and then the, you know, there being a lot of talk on the decentralized identity, and I love the fact that kind of, you know, the whole signing mechanism works really well. But at the same time, I never thought they communicate particularly well in that,
972
01:15:30.485 --> 01:15:47.764
how you should follow people. So what I was finding is it's almost like Twitter where people are, like just random people are following you, and people didn't really know to check stuff. And I have people kind of setting up failed proofs and then messaging me. So, you know, even like Keybase, I think, had probably done it the best.
973
01:15:48.065 --> 01:15:49.364
I still found the whole
974
01:15:49.665 --> 01:15:56.710
impersonation thing. Okay. There wasn't as widespread impersonation going on, but I still found it pretty awkward,
975
01:15:57.329 --> 01:16:04.724
to get kind of, you know, the the trust working and to know how to do the signing, as well. And I think it's partly because,
976
01:16:05.025 --> 01:16:10.510
ultimately, like, since they've been bought out, especially now, I don't think they were developing it much further. You know? Doing nothing.
977
01:16:10.890 --> 01:16:39.554
No. And I think for me, I already thought, well, if they're not gonna develop the platform, not really gonna spend more time on it. And I'd rather, you know, work on communities and a platform where you can yeah. There's actually a bit of product right back and stuff's gonna come out. That's when you know you've hit the sad portion of the lifespan of a product. When when people were asking me about the Zoom takeover? I'm just like, hopefully, they just don't touch at at all and just don't improve anything. It just they don't get involved whatsoever. They just let it die over a course of couple years while we wait for a better alternative.
978
01:16:40.094 --> 01:16:43.875
Yeah. It did that. And from the second kind of thing on the whole,
979
01:16:45.220 --> 01:16:45.720
the
980
01:16:46.180 --> 01:16:46.680
the
981
01:16:47.220 --> 01:16:49.400
the terms and services and all that?
982
01:16:50.580 --> 01:17:03.760
So I kind of agree with you in some ways. Like, there's a big part of me and certainly, you know, a few years ago, I didn't read any terms and conditions. I didn't care about them. And if the act did what I needed to do, I was quite happy with it. But I think it's a pretty useful
983
01:17:05.100 --> 01:17:05.600
indicator
984
01:17:06.060 --> 01:17:07.680
as to how people think,
985
01:17:08.140 --> 01:17:09.440
and the devs think
986
01:17:12.364 --> 01:17:25.850
when those terms and conditions and things like that are written. And I think it's a hard thing to get across to someone, but especially if they're resistant to hearing stuff they don't wanna hear and they like a particular app and they're wet into it or they've even, you know, they put
987
01:17:26.350 --> 01:17:36.065
if you're looking at something like WASAPI, they may have mixed all their coins with it. And therefore, they don't wanna hear anything about it. They just paid some stats for it. And then they don't wanna hear that, you know, that maybe those kind of,
988
01:17:37.590 --> 01:17:42.570
but, you know, they they don't wanna hear kind of the unwelcome truth about it. But I think for me, I think it's
989
01:17:43.030 --> 01:17:47.135
it's in it's quite indicative of of how someone's gonna build their product
990
01:17:47.534 --> 01:17:54.994
and how it's gonna be tailored and as it gets built. If someone is, like, on on the on the product side or the development side
991
01:17:55.380 --> 01:17:59.880
already basically saying you can't do certain things with it and not actually,
992
01:18:00.820 --> 01:18:05.665
you know, not actually going right from the get go that this is a, you know, an open source tool.
993
01:18:06.145 --> 01:18:07.685
It is only dealing with text.
994
01:18:07.985 --> 01:18:13.699
You know, they're already kind of trying to comply with something that already exists. It's a pretty good,
995
01:18:14.719 --> 01:18:16.660
good good good indicator that
996
01:18:17.905 --> 01:18:22.804
that that things are gonna go wrong later and that that, you know, that their approach is gonna be flawed anyway.
997
01:18:23.344 --> 01:18:28.469
And I don't wanna make this something obviously about kind of coin joint specific, but I think it's kind of interesting that
998
01:18:29.170 --> 01:18:38.765
after what we saw in something like the terms and conditions with, not being able to use it, I think for kind of, you know, maybe illegal gambling might have even been one of those things. I can't actually remember.
999
01:18:39.145 --> 01:18:42.025
There are quite a few things. I certainly think for,
1000
01:18:45.020 --> 01:19:15.845
sex work and things like that. I'm pretty sure that wasn't allowed on it as well. You know? So, but, again, I can't remember the exact detail. But I think then that was interesting in the way that they designed their product later and that we saw with the founders talking about things like, you know, you KYC on an exchange, and then you get privacy afterwards. So I think that when someone's got that attitude from the get go, then they design the product in a certain way. And I think that's also a very good kind of smoke signal for kind of knowing that that that, you know, you're probably using something that's gonna be built the wrong way.
1001
01:19:24.180 --> 01:19:28.295
I'm just pulling up the wasabi terms and conditions that I'm gonna throw up there.
1002
01:19:28.915 --> 01:19:31.175
I I didn't really wanna talk about,
1003
01:19:32.115 --> 01:19:36.375
CoinJoint specifically. Okay. But I I did wanna talk about terms of service,
1004
01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:38.660
because I I I think there
1005
01:19:39.920 --> 01:19:42.180
you know, we live we live in this
1006
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:44.100
intensely
1007
01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:45.620
litigious society,
1008
01:19:46.934 --> 01:19:49.275
A heavily regulated litigious society.
1009
01:19:51.175 --> 01:19:52.954
And I know I find myself,
1010
01:19:54.030 --> 01:19:56.929
covering my ass more than realistically I'm
1011
01:19:57.550 --> 01:19:59.650
going to act on that, you know?
1012
01:20:01.150 --> 01:20:01.650
And
1013
01:20:03.435 --> 01:20:04.735
to the point where,
1014
01:20:05.435 --> 01:20:15.080
you know, I I I get DMs. I'm open DMs. Right? I to the freaks that that if I haven't responded to your DMs, my DMs are completely overwhelmed, and you should message me on Keybase,
1015
01:20:15.860 --> 01:20:21.195
because I prefer the interface and at least it's, like, kind of encrypted and we should probably be better off there.
1016
01:20:22.534 --> 01:20:27.840
But, like, I get, like, open DMs about privacy focused things. Right? And there's certain things, like, I don't feel comfortable answering because who the fuck knows who's on the other side of that. Right?
1017
01:20:34.320 --> 01:20:43.355
And if they're trying to pigeonhole me and trying trying to catch me in in in something that might be illegal when that's not my intention, where my intention is is perfectly legal,
1018
01:20:44.780 --> 01:20:47.680
you know, people who who who care about privacy.
1019
01:20:48.380 --> 01:20:56.474
Yeah. And and so privacy tools, like, I completely like, if I and and to the point where I would not release a commercial privacy tool
1020
01:20:56.935 --> 01:21:06.360
because I care about my privacy and I care about my my potential users, and I just wouldn't fucking put myself in that situation. I don't wanna be in that situation where I could get pinched.
1021
01:21:07.780 --> 01:21:15.735
But I I I kinda feel for someone who's releasing a privacy product and it's just like on their terms and conditions, they're like, you can't use this for illegal things.
1022
01:21:16.290 --> 01:21:17.830
But that doesn't mean they're necessarily
1023
01:21:18.450 --> 01:21:23.510
like, obviously, they know, you know, that's a blurred line and that they don't know
1024
01:21:23.970 --> 01:21:25.350
what that means. Right?
1025
01:21:25.725 --> 01:21:31.425
I mean, it irritates me, though, the whole the I I've never seen a reason. I mean, okay. I'm in a different jurisdiction,
1026
01:21:31.805 --> 01:21:37.320
but, I mean, I don't put on my terms and conditions on my side that you can't use a phone for illegal purposes.
1027
01:21:38.260 --> 01:21:50.905
And I think if I did do it and someone did use it for legal purposes, I think me putting it in the terms and conditions wouldn't help me in the slightest. It wouldn't make any difference. And I think that, you know, I I think we owe it to ourselves to
1028
01:21:51.930 --> 01:21:54.910
to just not cock ourselves from the outset and
1029
01:21:55.690 --> 01:22:04.844
just, you know, you know, this is a bit like kinda doing tweets with, this isn't investment advice. I mean, stop doing that. You're not achieving anything. Mhmm.
1030
01:22:05.224 --> 01:22:07.724
Protecting yourself. If you go out and, you know,
1031
01:22:08.105 --> 01:22:17.760
she'll shit clients and then go, oh, yeah, but not investment advice. That doesn't mean that you're not, you know, you're not giving people potentially bad advice or whatever. Just, you know, own it. Own some responsibility.
1032
01:22:18.620 --> 01:22:19.840
I I find it
1033
01:22:20.175 --> 01:22:22.995
I I've got less and less patience for these days.
1034
01:22:24.175 --> 01:22:25.855
Yeah. I mean, like, look at your head. Like
1035
01:22:26.575 --> 01:22:29.635
So do you see that I pulled up with Sabi's terms and conditions?
1036
01:22:29.990 --> 01:22:30.730
Sorry. Yeah.
1037
01:22:31.510 --> 01:22:34.010
Yeah. Can you read it on your end? Sales of narcotics,
1038
01:22:34.390 --> 01:22:52.199
items that infringe or violate any intellectual property rights, ammunition, firearms, explosives, transactions that show the personal information, third parties, and violations of applicable law, transactions that support pyramid, Ponzi, or other get rich quick schemes, provide credit card, repair or debt settlement services, explicit sexual content,
1039
01:22:52.500 --> 01:22:54.600
money laundering, or any support thereof.
1040
01:22:55.835 --> 01:22:59.935
Like, they can't they can't tell this. No. They said, why why
1041
01:23:00.875 --> 01:23:25.150
Right. You know, this actually makes things worse in my opinion. It makes sense that a regulator then or law enforcement say, well, you said that someone shouldn't, so how are you making sure that someone can't do it? If you just release the software as is and say that's what it is. And apparently, as you know, it annoys me to see money laundered aspect there. I mean, like, money laundering has nothing to do with Bitcoin in any sense of the word. You know, it's it's a completely different thing entirely.
1042
01:23:26.485 --> 01:23:29.945
There's a process and there's a specific definition for what is.
1043
01:23:30.405 --> 01:23:35.440
It doesn't tie up here at all. So I think it's I think it's widespread ignorance,
1044
01:23:36.719 --> 01:23:41.219
and it's it's people that are nervous, and they think that kind of
1045
01:23:41.645 --> 01:23:44.864
showing a kind of nodding, you know, nodding acknowledgement
1046
01:23:45.485 --> 01:23:48.764
powers that they somehow absolve them and mean that they won't get,
1047
01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:52.980
a pressure applied to them and of their business. It's just weak.
1048
01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:56.420
Right.
1049
01:23:57.280 --> 01:23:58.340
Wonder about that.
1050
01:23:58.835 --> 01:24:04.215
Well, I mean, I agree. It it's definitely weak. It's weak, but it's, you know, inherently weak.
1051
01:24:05.930 --> 01:24:08.750
My my defense of it is that it's it's a weak defense.
1052
01:24:12.250 --> 01:24:12.750
Yeah.
1053
01:24:14.275 --> 01:24:16.755
But one of the one of the point that Max,
1054
01:24:17.155 --> 01:24:26.100
brings up is is it it is it's almost one of those things where you're just kinda hoping that I stay just enough to keep them off of me. Like,
1055
01:24:26.739 --> 01:24:35.655
you know, maybe if I if I just tell them that I'm not gonna allow this stuff, it'll it'll keep regulators from looking at me so closely. I think that's a mistake. I think that's commonly
1056
01:24:36.035 --> 01:24:37.575
a a common mistake, actually.
1057
01:24:38.810 --> 01:24:39.550
It's kind
1058
01:24:41.290 --> 01:24:45.390
of the reason we're, in in in Bitcoin and even talking about this stuff is,
1059
01:24:45.930 --> 01:24:46.590
you know,
1060
01:24:46.970 --> 01:24:48.270
we're routing around.
1061
01:24:49.375 --> 01:24:50.675
All this time spent
1062
01:24:51.135 --> 01:24:55.610
and, look, I get it. You wanna write a letter to, you know, the fat foot people and and,
1063
01:24:56.090 --> 01:25:00.409
what's smart to call them, a munching butts or whoever. You wanna write a letter to the people
1064
01:25:01.770 --> 01:25:06.105
tell them that they're printing on our freedoms and all this stuff. Fine. Okay. Write your
1065
01:25:06.405 --> 01:25:07.225
letter. Spend
1066
01:25:07.565 --> 01:25:08.065
4
1067
01:25:08.645 --> 01:25:10.985
times in that letter. Spend 4
1068
01:25:12.245 --> 01:25:14.585
that time learning around that enforcement.
1069
01:25:15.210 --> 01:25:16.350
That's what's important.
1070
01:25:17.610 --> 01:25:30.455
We're just gonna route around it anyway. So any any appearance that, hey. You know, we're one of the good guys too. You know, we we don't like child porn either. Well, of course, you don't. You know, and and and if you see it, yeah, get it off there. You know, we're not,
1071
01:25:31.980 --> 01:25:37.040
I guess, what you call free speech absolutist. You know, I don't wanna see child porn. I don't wanna see child porn.
1072
01:25:37.980 --> 01:25:39.120
You know, messenger.
1073
01:25:39.420 --> 01:25:41.265
Sure. Take it off. Fine.
1074
01:25:43.085 --> 01:25:46.065
But don't don't tell me that I shouldn't be looking at 3
1075
01:25:47.005 --> 01:25:51.500
d printed guns area to be looking at downloading and making 3 d printed gun.
1076
01:25:52.920 --> 01:25:56.205
It we get into a real murky area where it's almost like they're
1077
01:25:56.685 --> 01:25:59.745
trying to be moral, and that's where I run into problem.
1078
01:26:00.765 --> 01:26:02.465
Well, I mean, I think you would argue
1079
01:26:02.765 --> 01:26:04.465
I think you would argue that,
1080
01:26:06.449 --> 01:26:08.469
fuck legality of a pers particular
1081
01:26:09.170 --> 01:26:11.590
particular jurisdiction. I mean, the
1082
01:26:11.969 --> 01:26:13.670
the operator shouldn't know,
1083
01:26:14.784 --> 01:26:17.045
what's being discussed in the 1st place. So
1084
01:26:18.145 --> 01:26:21.764
Sure. But, you know, as you said, in any large groups,
1085
01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:26.020
you know, public open groups, you know, what are you gonna do?
1086
01:26:26.560 --> 01:26:33.165
Of course, there's feds in there. You know, you think there's 20,000 some people in the in the key base, deterrents dispense.
1087
01:26:34.665 --> 01:26:39.965
Half of them. Of those are they gonna pay? Honestly. You know, come on. Look, we did the bear arms and big one conference,
1088
01:26:40.620 --> 01:26:44.640
last year. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Love to.
1089
01:26:46.060 --> 01:26:46.880
Last year,
1090
01:26:48.875 --> 01:26:53.855
we're trying to make it an annual thing. Ragnar put it on last year, the Guns and Bitcoin crew.
1091
01:26:55.490 --> 01:27:01.830
It's in Austin, Texas. Originally, it was gonna be Portland. A lot of things happened. Switched to Austin last year last minute.
1092
01:27:03.035 --> 01:27:06.255
I was invited to come down and talk on,
1093
01:27:06.875 --> 01:27:07.775
using Bitcoin.
1094
01:27:08.555 --> 01:27:14.000
Now when I say guns and bit and this crew here, what you've gotta understand is that these are people that
1095
01:27:14.380 --> 01:27:18.595
are not at all interested in the, you know, number go up tech,
1096
01:27:19.555 --> 01:27:26.455
inflation resistance, or what if they they don't care. I'm not about this. Yeah. These are people that are using Bitcoin
1097
01:27:27.010 --> 01:27:31.110
because they have to. They don't care that it's cool tech. They don't care
1098
01:27:31.730 --> 01:27:33.350
care that it prevent wealth.
1099
01:27:35.650 --> 01:27:36.135
They have
1100
01:27:40.934 --> 01:27:46.020
She's being censored. They present it. Yeah. In in addition to that, they also need privacy.
1101
01:27:47.840 --> 01:27:48.820
They have not You
1102
01:27:49.360 --> 01:27:54.395
cut out you cut out for a little bit. So I I was just doing the pop up and said you were being censored.
1103
01:27:55.255 --> 01:27:56.315
Okay. I'm
1104
01:27:56.695 --> 01:27:57.735
sorry. Let me,
1105
01:27:58.280 --> 01:28:08.185
go back a little bit. But these are guys that are using it to avoid censorship. It's not because they think the tech is cool or anything. Wait. So so this is one of the reasons why I consider you a close friend.
1106
01:28:09.065 --> 01:28:15.225
Okay. So let's unpack this, for a second. First of all, Guns and Bitcoin, I have, the link under in the
1107
01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:20.340
not in the show notes. I have the link on the fucking display if you're watching this live. It's guns
1108
01:28:21.120 --> 01:28:21.860
and bitcoin.com.
1109
01:28:23.335 --> 01:28:26.715
Ian. And and you can see the event there. It's gonna be in Austin,
1110
01:28:27.574 --> 01:28:28.315
in April.
1111
01:28:29.094 --> 01:28:33.040
Hopefully, I will be able to make it. I am trying to, but it's a weird
1112
01:28:33.500 --> 01:28:34.719
year. But, anyway,
1113
01:28:35.260 --> 01:28:42.375
what Diverter mentioned was censorship resistance versus number go up. And one of the reasons why I like Diverter,
1114
01:28:43.635 --> 01:28:50.480
and why I consider him a close friend is is because I think we both agree that you can't remove the other from
1115
01:28:51.420 --> 01:28:55.040
from you're gonna have both. And there's we have compliance bros
1116
01:28:55.555 --> 01:28:59.335
that don't want the censorship resistance, and they're gonna have to fucking deal with it.
1117
01:28:59.635 --> 01:29:00.615
And we have,
1118
01:29:01.475 --> 01:29:03.095
censorship resistant bros
1119
01:29:03.620 --> 01:29:10.120
who think, you know, number should go sideways, and Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, and they're just gonna have to fucking deal with it.
1120
01:29:14.905 --> 01:29:18.925
Yeah. So so diverter I mean, you agree with me here. Do you not?
1121
01:29:20.140 --> 01:29:21.180
I I I do. I do.
1122
01:29:22.140 --> 01:29:26.400
And, yes, there's something to be said, of course, just that, you know,
1123
01:29:26.860 --> 01:29:28.160
number go up is
1124
01:29:28.625 --> 01:29:32.724
what attracts the most eyes. I mean, you've got you've got what, you know, rappers,
1125
01:29:33.025 --> 01:29:37.900
Soulja Boy, and people on Twitter right now talking about buying Bitcoin on Robinhood, you know.
1126
01:29:38.280 --> 01:29:39.020
So, of
1127
01:29:39.400 --> 01:29:41.420
course, number go up, puts the eye on.
1128
01:29:42.200 --> 01:29:43.100
And, yes,
1129
01:29:43.755 --> 01:29:51.454
of course, you're gonna have some of those people that come in. They come in for number go up. They stay for number go up until it goes down,
1130
01:29:51.790 --> 01:29:55.570
and then they're gone in Bitcoin's a Ponzi and, you know, the rest is history.
1131
01:29:56.350 --> 01:29:57.570
Some of those people
1132
01:29:57.870 --> 01:30:01.250
will likely stay around. They'll fall down the rabbit hole.
1133
01:30:01.955 --> 01:30:04.135
They'll start learning about censorship resistance.
1134
01:30:05.075 --> 01:30:05.655
I think
1135
01:30:05.955 --> 01:30:10.455
so much of it is in how Bitcoin is initially presented to people,
1136
01:30:11.270 --> 01:30:13.530
how they perceive it from that point on.
1137
01:30:15.270 --> 01:30:19.130
But I would agree a 100% with you that you don't
1138
01:30:21.275 --> 01:30:22.015
get no
1139
01:30:22.555 --> 01:30:23.055
and
1140
01:30:23.515 --> 01:30:30.190
as much as I sometimes may hate to admit it, I think a lot of the resistance goes away if you don't get number go up.
1141
01:30:35.804 --> 01:30:38.945
Yo, Max, do you disagree with us? You wanna fight with us on this point?
1142
01:30:40.445 --> 01:30:44.680
So I I always think I'm a bit misunderstood with my attitude on the
1143
01:30:46.100 --> 01:30:49.960
I mean, like, I'm actually quite bullish on Bitcoin, and I always have been.
1144
01:30:50.825 --> 01:30:53.885
But I'm just bullish on it because I think that, you know,
1145
01:30:54.905 --> 01:30:55.805
we're still early.
1146
01:30:56.745 --> 01:31:06.715
There's still plenty of people that could use this and still don't know how to or not aware why they're aware enough of it. So I think that there's plenty of reason to be optimistic on price. And
1147
01:31:07.094 --> 01:31:09.355
I find price fundamentally boring, though.
1148
01:31:10.375 --> 01:31:13.994
I don't wanna talk about it with anyone, and I don't find anyone
1149
01:31:14.430 --> 01:31:23.810
that on Twitter that has anything useful to say about it at all. And I think they're they're runs a shower tent and they can't put their class. And whether it's a stop to flow thing or whether
1150
01:31:24.755 --> 01:31:26.775
handle. I think it's all nonsense. And,
1151
01:31:28.195 --> 01:31:35.140
I am so interested. Yeah. But but I mean have an asset that's designed to pump forever. Of course, it gets boring after it keeps pumping forever.
1152
01:31:36.560 --> 01:31:37.700
Yeah. Yeah. I think
1153
01:31:38.480 --> 01:31:40.005
I I think, though, that,
1154
01:31:40.965 --> 01:31:41.925
I think that that's
1155
01:31:43.605 --> 01:32:01.535
so I think people get bothered about potentially transaction cost. I mean, we're we're kind of, this there's a whole number of other kind of subjects that come in here. But I mean, put it put it this way is is that I don't think Bitcoin needs to be a reserve asset of companies or banks. I don't think it, you know, it needs to have the number of,
1156
01:32:02.735 --> 01:32:05.795
the US dollar value increase for it to retain its properties.
1157
01:32:06.430 --> 01:32:11.010
And I I think that it's quite fine for it to exist amongst a portion of the population
1158
01:32:11.710 --> 01:32:25.550
and the and for a portion of the population at a certain portion of time. You know, not everyone will need Bitcoin's properties on a daily basis. Some people will need it for a few years in their life. Some will use it as a small part of their life all their life. Others will use it
1159
01:32:26.030 --> 01:32:32.530
all the time in all their life. You know, it's, it very much you know, you take it as you need it. I think it will always be there for that purpose.
1160
01:32:33.915 --> 01:32:35.034
And I and I think,
1161
01:32:35.514 --> 01:32:40.494
you know, anyone that wants that mass adoption, you know, falls into kind of, in fact, fallacy,
1162
01:32:41.034 --> 01:32:44.880
of of thinking that a tool or something like that needs to be used all the time
1163
01:32:45.580 --> 01:32:51.440
there. And I don't think, you know, it not getting mass adoption affects the the price either. So I'm quite you know,
1164
01:32:52.045 --> 01:32:53.344
you know, my my you
1165
01:32:53.724 --> 01:33:11.375
know, my general feeling is to to not pay attention to your actual price and just come generalize a life perspective. You know, you should ideally be living within your means. So, you know, if, if you're saving more than you're spending, then, you know, whether price increase or decrease, your your stack should be going up higher. It's just personal responsibility.
1166
01:33:12.554 --> 01:33:13.695
Shout out to SM,
1167
01:33:14.554 --> 01:33:16.155
the freak who wanted to let you know,
1168
01:33:16.940 --> 01:33:21.280
that you're talking about not caring about price while I have the price up on the live stream.
1169
01:33:22.700 --> 01:33:27.455
I just wanted to say to the freaks, that are watching, look at this fucking bisque bread.
1170
01:33:28.074 --> 01:33:31.330
This popped up, you know, the real price popped up,
1171
01:33:31.890 --> 01:33:38.950
while we were recording. I think it's pretty cool. We you can see I don't know if you noticed, but on the left side is the actual orders coming in,
1172
01:33:40.284 --> 01:33:42.705
and red is down and green is up.
1173
01:33:43.965 --> 01:33:45.505
So that that's pretty cool.
1174
01:33:46.125 --> 01:33:52.750
But I mean, even what I would say, though, I mean, when I say I don't care about price, I mean, that's not to say I'm not gonna kind of buy in,
1175
01:33:53.690 --> 01:34:07.440
you know, if I see what I think is now the top drop there, and I'm not gonna you know, I mean, I mean, literally my, you know, my my day job is involved working in all the books. So, you know, I find this kind of stuff interesting from that perspective and this construction and,
1176
01:34:08.699 --> 01:34:09.360
you know,
1177
01:34:09.739 --> 01:34:23.480
I think it's more to the point is I'm not interested in the predictions. I'm not interested in the they get excited or the or the people that think it's their one last you know, their one big shot again about getting rich. For me, that weeks of desperation,
1178
01:34:23.860 --> 01:34:25.800
and it's it's a bit pathetic.
1179
01:34:26.260 --> 01:34:37.345
And so, you know, what it should be is is you've got a tool. If it goes up, then that's great. But ultimately, like, you know, it makes sense to be saving in this money because it's hard to, you know, sense that.
1180
01:34:37.725 --> 01:34:46.885
You know, what portion of your your wealth you're doing now. Obviously, it's up to you, but, you know, that that's kind of you know, I'm quite black and white on it in that state too.
1181
01:34:47.364 --> 01:34:51.864
Well, Max, I mean, there's something you said here that, like, that that people need,
1182
01:34:54.219 --> 01:35:00.800
you know, need corporate treasuries or need the compliance pro stuff. And and there's definitely Bitcoiners that are, like, actively
1183
01:35:01.100 --> 01:35:03.199
searching for it. Right? And they're petitioning,
1184
01:35:04.825 --> 01:35:07.165
corporations to store their treasury in Bitcoin.
1185
01:35:08.265 --> 01:35:09.245
From my perspective,
1186
01:35:10.505 --> 01:35:12.925
it has nothing to do with me needing that.
1187
01:35:13.320 --> 01:35:23.665
It has everything to do with them discovering Bitcoin just like I discovered Bitcoin, and they're gonna buy Bitcoin. Like, they're gonna buy Bitcoin, and and the beauty of Bitcoin is I can't stop them from buying Bitcoin.
1188
01:35:24.125 --> 01:35:25.905
Mhmm. I cannot sell them my Bitcoin,
1189
01:35:26.605 --> 01:35:30.145
and I have no intention of selling them my Bitcoin. They will never get my Bitcoin.
1190
01:35:31.380 --> 01:35:40.815
But, if if they wanna buy it, like, I don't blame them because who wouldn't want to buy this shit? Who wouldn't want to move over to a Bitcoin standard? Right? So
1191
01:35:41.275 --> 01:35:44.094
I so I don't look at it from, we don't need them,
1192
01:35:44.474 --> 01:35:48.520
but they're coming. They will come, and there's nothing we can do about it.
1193
01:35:48.820 --> 01:35:59.955
Yeah. The the only thing I'd caution with that, and, look, I I a 100% agree with you, and that's the beauty of the money and money for enemies, anyone can use it. This is that I think that the innate properties
1194
01:36:00.335 --> 01:36:00.915
of Bitcoin
1195
01:36:01.980 --> 01:36:13.335
make it more suitable for the individual. Again, I I yeah. That's that's that's definitely from a personal opinion that I have, and I completely appreciate that someone managing a trade agreement may have an entirely different opinion.
1196
01:36:13.875 --> 01:36:16.295
But I would I would suggest that
1197
01:36:16.675 --> 01:36:21.500
that those looking at it, first as a treasury asset could find themselves,
1198
01:36:22.360 --> 01:36:27.720
in a bit of a difficult situation in the future. So, I mean, obviously, like, someone like kind of Michael Taylor type,
1199
01:36:28.985 --> 01:36:37.245
would be laughing at me right now for saying that because on a US dollar basis, I mean, his trades would have gone up hugely, enormously. It's done very well.
1200
01:36:38.690 --> 01:36:45.190
And I think it remains to be seen still what kind of trade that will be for MicroStrategy and how well that work because
1201
01:36:45.575 --> 01:36:47.195
that's a public asset.
1202
01:36:47.655 --> 01:36:49.095
What does that look like if,
1203
01:36:50.055 --> 01:36:53.115
Nasdaq or whoever else my strategy is listed,
1204
01:36:53.495 --> 01:36:54.715
release rules on
1205
01:36:55.090 --> 01:36:55.830
holdings limitations
1206
01:36:56.290 --> 01:37:01.430
in virtual currencies, that type of thing. What happens if corporations under Biden administration
1207
01:37:02.205 --> 01:37:06.045
get additional taxes and then companies like those are forced to,
1208
01:37:06.445 --> 01:37:06.765
essentially,
1209
01:37:09.530 --> 01:37:10.970
get rid of assets like that.
1210
01:37:11.690 --> 01:37:17.230
How, you know, how much is that number go up tech at that point, for those companies when it's held publicly
1211
01:37:17.610 --> 01:37:20.014
and and in the face of
1212
01:37:20.875 --> 01:37:22.415
of of of regulators
1213
01:37:22.795 --> 01:37:23.295
and,
1214
01:37:24.155 --> 01:37:31.050
and and, you know, politicians who actually see it as now right rejection of their money and are insulted by that.
1215
01:37:31.750 --> 01:37:39.585
You know, I think those rule that's played whereas I think just the innate properties of Bitcoin mean that you holding that privately and or dish form of digital cash
1216
01:37:40.125 --> 01:37:42.700
means it would probably suit your use case better,
1217
01:37:43.100 --> 01:37:45.120
overall, but this is super early days.
1218
01:37:46.860 --> 01:37:47.360
Yeah.
1219
01:37:52.005 --> 01:37:53.704
You got something to add there, Diverter?
1220
01:37:54.804 --> 01:37:55.465
I mean,
1221
01:37:56.244 --> 01:37:56.744
like,
1222
01:37:57.680 --> 01:38:02.820
Max is right on the he he's right on the nose here. There's no there's no question about it.
1223
01:38:03.280 --> 01:38:04.020
You're also
1224
01:38:04.375 --> 01:38:08.795
a 100% correct in saying that, you know, this is the whole beauty of it is the permissionlessness.
1225
01:38:10.855 --> 01:38:14.090
If you wanna buy Bitcoin, you can buy Bitcoin. I can't stop you. I don't want
1226
01:38:14.650 --> 01:38:15.389
to stop
1227
01:38:15.849 --> 01:38:19.710
you. But, you know, we do have to kinda stay on our toes about,
1228
01:38:20.969 --> 01:38:25.025
the people that come in with these large swaths of Bitcoin like the micro strategies,
1229
01:38:25.805 --> 01:38:28.145
and then begin trying to steer
1230
01:38:28.605 --> 01:38:29.425
this narrative
1231
01:38:30.620 --> 01:38:31.680
towards their direction,
1232
01:38:32.620 --> 01:38:36.719
the privacy and the censorship resistance because I think a lot of them view that
1233
01:38:37.020 --> 01:38:37.920
as a hurdle,
1234
01:38:39.335 --> 01:38:40.695
to never go up.
1235
01:38:41.415 --> 01:38:46.475
I think they're afraid that if there is too much privacy or too much censorship resistance,
1236
01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:47.900
that the government,
1237
01:38:48.760 --> 01:38:52.940
will be more compelled to come in and try to shut this thing down and and hinder,
1238
01:38:53.719 --> 01:38:55.980
the increase in US dollar value.
1239
01:38:57.205 --> 01:38:58.505
So it's you know,
1240
01:38:58.805 --> 01:39:00.985
what are you gonna do? You're not gonna stop them.
1241
01:39:03.445 --> 01:39:05.070
Which is, you know,
1242
01:39:05.450 --> 01:39:10.750
speak our minds about what's important, teach people about the things that are important, but at the same time,
1243
01:39:11.130 --> 01:39:13.150
you know, it it's gonna be what it is.
1244
01:39:17.265 --> 01:39:20.245
And you like, I I I agree with both of you guys.
1245
01:39:22.429 --> 01:39:23.090
I think,
1246
01:39:23.789 --> 01:39:25.650
to, like, clean the dirty a little bit,
1247
01:39:26.909 --> 01:39:30.449
all the all the freaks who are listening, you should consider using Bisq.
1248
01:39:31.375 --> 01:39:33.555
Bisq is a a peer to peer marketplace,
1249
01:39:36.094 --> 01:39:40.275
where you connect directly with other Bitcoiners to buy and sell Bitcoin.
1250
01:39:40.890 --> 01:39:43.470
Here's a quick little video of what Bisk is.
1251
01:39:45.450 --> 01:39:47.790
There are many places to buy Bitcoin.
1252
01:39:48.475 --> 01:39:50.574
They collect your personal information
1253
01:39:51.435 --> 01:39:53.215
and jeopardize your privacy.
1254
01:39:54.635 --> 01:39:55.135
KYC
1255
01:39:55.594 --> 01:39:57.295
is the illicit activity.
1256
01:39:58.040 --> 01:39:58.540
This
1257
01:39:59.560 --> 01:40:00.620
is open source.
1258
01:40:01.080 --> 01:40:03.020
It does not collect user data.
1259
01:40:03.640 --> 01:40:05.580
You keep your private keys,
1260
01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:11.405
create or take to trade peer to peer, and keep your Bitcoin private and secure.
1261
01:40:19.330 --> 01:40:21.970
Love that. So, I mean, I I don't think,
1262
01:40:23.745 --> 01:40:30.805
I don't know if this has to be said, but, you know, we're very deep in here. I mean, it's not a coincidence that Cielo Dispatch does not have any sponsors.
1263
01:40:31.610 --> 01:40:33.550
Okay. Bisc is
1264
01:40:34.889 --> 01:40:37.869
a a personal love of mine. I think it's a very important project.
1265
01:40:38.329 --> 01:40:40.190
I think it's important that we discuss,
1266
01:40:41.075 --> 01:40:44.935
you know, why BISK is important. And someone mentioned in the comments,
1267
01:40:47.075 --> 01:40:56.260
issues if you're using Zelle or using a bank as your payment processor for Bisc. So, let let's dive into this a little bit. Who wants to start?
1268
01:40:57.525 --> 01:40:58.665
To go Yeah. To start.
1269
01:40:59.205 --> 01:41:02.585
Yeah. I'll take off here. I'm been a Bisc user for a little while.
1270
01:41:04.260 --> 01:41:05.800
The comment I saw earlier,
1271
01:41:06.180 --> 01:41:08.600
I believe, that we're referring to talking about
1272
01:41:09.380 --> 01:41:13.320
a possible honeypot if, you know, law enforcement is, your counterparty.
1273
01:41:14.565 --> 01:41:16.505
And and, you know, sure. Yes.
1274
01:41:17.845 --> 01:41:22.665
Which is, you know, basically, the same risk you run on any anonymous or anonymized network.
1275
01:41:23.650 --> 01:41:29.110
Yeah. The other person you're talking to could be logging everything you said, logging on your all of your data.
1276
01:41:29.969 --> 01:41:32.389
So the best that you can do is limit that,
1277
01:41:32.795 --> 01:41:36.335
as much as possible and determine based on your threat model
1278
01:41:36.795 --> 01:41:38.415
whether or not you should use,
1279
01:41:38.875 --> 01:41:39.935
a different source.
1280
01:41:40.910 --> 01:41:42.290
When you're talking about this,
1281
01:41:43.950 --> 01:41:49.090
it's totally different than using one of these other centralized exchanges like a Kraken, for example.
1282
01:41:51.395 --> 01:41:57.175
Just there is no I I press a button. I make a trade. I've got the other you know, when you're dealing in cash.
1283
01:41:58.210 --> 01:42:00.310
You may have to wait days on a regular.
1284
01:42:01.970 --> 01:42:03.030
Or, you know, wait
1285
01:42:03.410 --> 01:42:08.435
you may have to wait hours on even one of the quick transactions. I mean, you know, one of those Zelle transactions.
1286
01:42:08.895 --> 01:42:10.995
So all this stuff is,
1287
01:42:11.375 --> 01:42:14.595
as it always comes down to, convenience trade offs.
1288
01:42:15.600 --> 01:42:18.900
The actual exchange itself of BISC
1289
01:42:19.440 --> 01:42:22.900
is is not gonna log your personal identifiable
1290
01:42:23.200 --> 01:42:23.700
information.
1291
01:42:24.265 --> 01:42:32.125
That's a huge win. Alright? Does that mean is it perfect? Of course, it's not perfect. But this is one of those things where, especially in privacy,
1292
01:42:32.550 --> 01:42:46.755
you cannot let, you know, perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because it's not a 100% anonymous and perfect and you can't be sure that the person you're trading with is not law enforcement. That doesn't mean it's not a huge step forward over handing over
1293
01:42:48.030 --> 01:42:53.730
all of your to be able to buy a little Bitcoin to taking a chance on your counterparty, your direct counterparty,
1294
01:42:54.485 --> 01:42:59.945
having some of that information, and then you actually storing everything locally on your computer. So
1295
01:43:00.485 --> 01:43:02.265
I'm a huge proponent of disk.
1296
01:43:03.860 --> 01:43:07.400
It still has kinks. It still has problems. It's gonna need work.
1297
01:43:08.420 --> 01:43:08.920
But
1298
01:43:10.165 --> 01:43:10.665
when,
1299
01:43:11.045 --> 01:43:12.665
the time comes that
1300
01:43:13.125 --> 01:43:19.330
everyone gets pushed, because that's what's gonna have to happen as as is always, just like with WhatsApp here.
1301
01:43:20.350 --> 01:43:23.970
When when we get pushed and we get that big censorship overreach,
1302
01:43:24.670 --> 01:43:26.370
people are gonna start to realize,
1303
01:43:26.895 --> 01:43:33.635
how important projects like that really are. So I I really, hope that people start playing around with it now,
1304
01:43:34.094 --> 01:43:36.275
as opposed to trying to run catch up.
1305
01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:42.020
You know, Max, you got a strong opinion here?
1306
01:43:43.280 --> 01:43:45.540
Kind of. Yeah. Well, yes and no. So,
1307
01:43:46.155 --> 01:43:50.495
I don't know. I'll go risk getting chucked off your show here, but, I actually don't like this.
1308
01:43:50.875 --> 01:43:53.215
Oh, kick them off. As a as a tool. Yeah.
1309
01:43:53.995 --> 01:43:56.190
But, yeah, I it's hugely important,
1310
01:43:56.730 --> 01:44:03.695
and absolutely, it's, like, probably one of the most important projects going in the Bitcoin space at the moment. I just don't personally like it myself.
1311
01:44:04.635 --> 01:44:07.295
And although it's my own fault, but it's also partly
1312
01:44:07.675 --> 01:44:09.695
due to where I'm based at the moment.
1313
01:44:10.330 --> 01:44:10.830
And
1314
01:44:11.210 --> 01:44:29.395
so my kind of issues, like, I've actually had this on my laptop for years, like, back when it was Bitsquare or something like that. And I can honestly tell you every time I have to find Bitsquare Bitsquare was a better name. Yeah. I think so as well. Yeah. I've got a logo as well. I seem to remember. But, like, every time I fix it up, I can't be bothered to use it because,
1315
01:44:29.870 --> 01:44:37.090
I hate the architecture of the SPV. I hate how it I mean, maybe I'm being too cheap and my laptop's rubbish, but, like, it takes
1316
01:44:38.495 --> 01:44:40.755
ages to sing so they can use it off.
1317
01:44:41.695 --> 01:44:43.315
I find it awkward,
1318
01:44:44.175 --> 01:44:46.995
to use, and so I I just don't bother.
1319
01:44:47.310 --> 01:44:50.929
That being said, like, that's not to say I don't think it's a good tool.
1320
01:44:51.469 --> 01:44:53.090
It's just not really what I like.
1321
01:44:54.595 --> 01:45:02.455
Personally speaking, and I think this should be a consideration for anyone that's in a similar position to me. So I think in, like, a big city where you're well connected
1322
01:45:02.915 --> 01:45:03.415
is
1323
01:45:04.320 --> 01:45:06.740
actually try and do trades more in person.
1324
01:45:07.280 --> 01:45:09.700
And they're not as hard as the you need as
1325
01:45:10.160 --> 01:45:11.060
as they sound.
1326
01:45:12.355 --> 01:45:16.054
You know, I I've got guys I know through our local Bitcoin meetup,
1327
01:45:16.594 --> 01:45:17.574
that do OTC.
1328
01:45:18.275 --> 01:45:21.635
We there's actually not the one I'm I'm not actually part of it.
1329
01:45:22.120 --> 01:45:31.784
I'm not comfortable, you know, having my personal details on it, but there's actually a, like, a large Telegram group for OTC in Singapore, and people just do massive trades on that.
1330
01:45:32.344 --> 01:45:35.244
And there's a it's moderated. It's carefully done.
1331
01:45:35.545 --> 01:45:42.710
And when you're living in a city specifically like this, which is pretty safe from a physical perspective, you don't have to worry about getting mugged or anything like that.
1332
01:45:43.330 --> 01:45:46.070
People do do just cash trades of, like, a $100,
1333
01:45:46.475 --> 01:45:47.295
200 grand.
1334
01:45:47.755 --> 01:45:51.614
Right? Yeah. If you're meeting up in the street and doing that with Bitcoin,
1335
01:45:51.995 --> 01:45:55.375
and it's pretty common here to do that. And there's far more liquidity
1336
01:45:56.550 --> 01:46:03.610
on there than something like this. And that's even with kind of popular pairs. You know, even if you were to get out of an SGP pair and use, like, EuroGP,
1337
01:46:04.215 --> 01:46:06.074
I think you'd get a better spread,
1338
01:46:06.534 --> 01:46:21.675
going for an OTC trader here. And, again, like, that stuff scales pretty well. Like, if you wanna do small trades and you're not willing to do, like, a trade, like, 20 grand, then use someone that's also connected to an agency trade and do that. So I I actually, you know, we're pretty good with options in Singapore
1339
01:46:22.295 --> 01:46:25.595
on a kind of, you know, face to face basis. And I think culturally,
1340
01:46:27.230 --> 01:46:32.770
whilst it's pretty advanced as a country in terms of a lot of, like, Fintech type apps and digital payments,
1341
01:46:33.165 --> 01:46:39.985
There's certain aspects of it. There's certain industries here that are heavily cash based, and people are used to using cash in certain,
1342
01:46:40.525 --> 01:46:41.825
for certain types of payments.
1343
01:46:43.010 --> 01:46:57.225
And therefore, it's still part of the big part of culture here. We've been comfortable with that. So, for that reason, there's never really been a reason for me to be kind of forced into using this. There's a Biz trader that hates you out there. He just sent Biz Moonbound. It's showing a 4545
1344
01:46:58.245 --> 01:46:59.465
k ticker right now.
1345
01:47:00.470 --> 01:47:05.610
But also, like, that's also kind of like He's giving you he's giving you the incentive to use Bisq, bro.
1346
01:47:05.910 --> 01:47:08.135
Well, as a seller, yeah. But, I mean, like,
1347
01:47:08.775 --> 01:47:12.155
this is the other thing as well. I mean, we can actually see here already, like,
1348
01:47:12.775 --> 01:47:23.460
I mean, actually, how difficult is it for my biscuits to use when you've got, a mid price like that being so skewed. Like, in in Singapore, it's actually not unusual for people to be buying Tethers directly.
1349
01:47:24.385 --> 01:47:26.804
So they'll do SGD to USD Tether,
1350
01:47:27.585 --> 01:47:30.164
and then then they can take that to some exchange,
1351
01:47:30.784 --> 01:47:36.740
and then, you know, get the price they want to, later, and that can be done with absolutely minimal KYC.
1352
01:47:37.360 --> 01:47:37.860
So
1353
01:47:38.480 --> 01:47:40.980
yeah. So you kind of you know, like, on paper,
1354
01:47:41.435 --> 01:47:47.855
it's very easy and you see it on Twitter. People will say, oh, you know, you gotta use Bisc or, you know, use Huddle Huddle. But actually, like,
1355
01:47:48.690 --> 01:48:03.825
when you actually get on the street and see how things are done, like, especially in Asia, like, it's it you know, again, this is very geographically dependent, but it can kinda No. It's not geographically dependent. Well, first of all, I I wanna do a shout out to SM again. He gets a second shout out for this episode.
1356
01:48:04.285 --> 01:48:04.785
Freaks,
1357
01:48:05.520 --> 01:48:08.020
learn from him, and you will get a shout out.
1358
01:48:08.960 --> 01:48:21.155
I like this idea that people watching Citadel Dispatch are buying on bisque, and they just are getting bullish and they're buying. And I I I kinda like this concept. Like, I hope that for future Citadel Dispatches, you know, this is only episode 5.
1359
01:48:21.520 --> 01:48:25.540
For future episodes, like, it'd be funny if if every Tuesday,
1360
01:48:26.080 --> 01:48:27.780
big Bisc pumped because,
1361
01:48:28.640 --> 01:48:37.445
people were just market buying on Bisc and and they're watching sort of the dispatch at the same time. And now they're not listening to us. They're focusing on the price, you know, all the all the Okay.
1362
01:48:37.985 --> 01:48:41.910
Max Max, we're just having some fun. Okay? We're just having some fun.
1363
01:48:42.610 --> 01:48:43.750
I agree with you
1364
01:48:44.130 --> 01:48:48.630
from Zen. 1 Bitcoin is 1 Bitcoin. 1 sat is 1 sat. It doesn't matter.
1365
01:48:49.795 --> 01:48:56.855
But at the same time, it is the ultimate adoption stat, and I don't think anyone can deny we're trying to build a free market here,
1366
01:48:57.510 --> 01:49:05.675
and a free market is gonna price a lot of things and a lot of things, you know. And one day, this will turn to sats per dollar because everything will be priced in sats. But until
1367
01:49:06.055 --> 01:49:14.395
then, you know, it's priced in dollars because that is the global standard. To people saying to Max that this idea that a black market type of,
1368
01:49:15.630 --> 01:49:18.929
gray market type of of cash deals cannot happen,
1369
01:49:19.789 --> 01:49:22.530
you're all full of shit. If you've gone out and bought weed,
1370
01:49:22.954 --> 01:49:28.815
you participated in the same exact type of environment, and I expect this to happen with Bitcoin as well.
1371
01:49:30.300 --> 01:49:32.480
I don't expect you to go out and buy $200,000
1372
01:49:33.020 --> 01:49:37.520
worth of weed though, which is kind of what Max insinuated. I want people to realize
1373
01:49:37.975 --> 01:49:43.515
that we had we had a Hong Kong trader recently who got fucked because she was trying to buy
1374
01:49:44.055 --> 01:49:44.555
$400,000
1375
01:49:45.095 --> 01:49:45.915
worth of Bitcoin.
1376
01:49:46.350 --> 01:49:52.690
Yeah. Which, by the way, people were like, that's ridiculous. Why would you try and buy a half $1,000,000 worth of Bitcoin? That's that's
1377
01:49:53.469 --> 01:49:54.210
10 Bitcoin.
1378
01:49:54.909 --> 01:49:59.244
Yep. It's like that's crazy. Like, she was just trying to buy 10 Bitcoin.
1379
01:49:59.545 --> 01:50:02.900
She got into trouble. So try and keep your amounts lower than that.
1380
01:50:04.179 --> 01:50:04.679
Yeah.
1381
01:50:06.500 --> 01:50:11.320
Well, you know, it's one of those things with this. It's it's one of those, you know, love hate things.
1382
01:50:12.155 --> 01:50:15.695
As Max, you know, points out, you know, on paper, of course, you know, everyone,
1383
01:50:16.075 --> 01:50:20.290
yes, use this. Then when you go to actually using it, you know, maybe
1384
01:50:20.590 --> 01:50:23.570
the area that you live in, you might not find an offer
1385
01:50:23.950 --> 01:50:26.130
ever. You know, you you may hit,
1386
01:50:26.804 --> 01:50:29.385
we may hit a dip in the price and the liquidity
1387
01:50:29.764 --> 01:50:35.545
just is gone. It drives all the way up, and the only offer that is on there is for a 40% markup.
1388
01:50:36.960 --> 01:50:41.860
So, you know, these these are the the things that don't get talked about too much.
1389
01:50:42.639 --> 01:50:46.905
You know, everybody we we'd like to paint a nice rosy picture of this.
1390
01:50:47.205 --> 01:50:54.469
Censorship resistant. You know, there's no KYC. All that good stuff. Yes. It's great. But, you know, there's some obvious trade offs. There's some obvious downside
1391
01:50:55.250 --> 01:50:56.310
to for me,
1392
01:50:57.330 --> 01:50:59.830
you know, living in in the US especially
1393
01:51:00.235 --> 01:51:03.615
and dealing in some of the communities that I like to run-in,
1394
01:51:06.235 --> 01:51:11.660
this trade off is an acceptable one for me because what's unacceptable for me
1395
01:51:13.720 --> 01:51:14.620
is identity
1396
01:51:15.265 --> 01:51:17.365
to be able to obtain some Bitcoin,
1397
01:51:18.065 --> 01:51:20.645
especially when we've been into situations like COVID,
1398
01:51:21.105 --> 01:51:26.909
where we can't necessarily go out and mingle and meet other people and establish connections
1399
01:51:27.530 --> 01:51:31.949
and things of that nature. It's very important for us to have some sort of online,
1400
01:51:32.730 --> 01:51:33.230
avenue
1401
01:51:33.585 --> 01:51:37.925
for people to be able to attain Bitcoin without doing KYC. Now
1402
01:51:38.385 --> 01:51:39.685
I, myself, also,
1403
01:51:40.065 --> 01:51:42.565
like to do some mining. I mine personally.
1404
01:51:43.830 --> 01:51:45.530
That's not an option for everyone.
1405
01:51:45.910 --> 01:51:46.410
So
1406
01:51:46.790 --> 01:52:01.345
it's one of those things where, yes, I'm gonna say, you know, use this. Use this. Everybody use this. Everybody's not gonna use this. Everybody probably can't use this. But the idea of this is is what's the most important to me.
1407
01:52:01.720 --> 01:52:05.980
You're telling people to eat the fish again. We're back at the eat the fish. Eat the fucking fish.
1408
01:52:06.840 --> 01:52:13.145
Just mine. Just mine. I wanna I wanna talk about this. I wanna talk about this because this is something that that Bitcoiners
1409
01:52:13.525 --> 01:52:14.905
do not talk about enough.
1410
01:52:15.845 --> 01:52:21.449
When I first got into Bitcoin, people said to me, don't mind. Not worth it. You're not a professional miner.
1411
01:52:22.469 --> 01:52:26.409
I told them to go fuck themselves. I like learning from my mistakes.
1412
01:52:27.105 --> 01:52:32.245
So I attempted to mine. The first attempt was cloud mining. Do not cloud mine.
1413
01:52:33.105 --> 01:52:48.975
That is a horrible idea. You will lose your money. I promise you if they could mine and make a profit, they would do it. They sold you that risk instead, and they will scam you out of your money. But then I decided to buy a couple ASICs and mine for myself.
1414
01:52:50.475 --> 01:52:53.375
That is really where Bitcoin is a game changer,
1415
01:52:55.270 --> 01:52:55.770
tangibly.
1416
01:52:56.790 --> 01:53:01.370
Let's talk about this for a second. This idea that you can connect to power and Internet,
1417
01:53:01.725 --> 01:53:06.545
and you can receive money through the Internet with 0 k y c.
1418
01:53:07.405 --> 01:53:10.465
I think people don't realize and respect this enough.
1419
01:53:10.929 --> 01:53:11.510
I think
1420
01:53:11.889 --> 01:53:16.289
what we will see in the next 5, 10 years is as ASIC lifestyle
1421
01:53:16.610 --> 01:53:17.590
life cycles
1422
01:53:18.215 --> 01:53:23.355
level out, and and you buy an ASIC, and they just it just becomes it stays profitable for years.
1423
01:53:24.295 --> 01:53:25.435
Doesn't get outdated.
1424
01:53:26.135 --> 01:53:27.515
We will see it distribute
1425
01:53:28.010 --> 01:53:28.510
because
1426
01:53:28.890 --> 01:53:32.510
people will be willing to mine for loss. Would you agree, diverter? And
1427
01:53:32.890 --> 01:53:46.440
show us your guides, you know, just fucking hit us with, why why should we mine to achieve no KYC Bitcoin? Hit us with it. First of all, just mine, man. I mean, it's so simple. I don't understand why we have to explain it.
1428
01:53:48.179 --> 01:53:48.679
Look,
1429
01:53:49.940 --> 01:53:52.119
first of all, once you said cloud mining,
1430
01:53:53.835 --> 01:54:01.534
Yes. Don't do great great advice. Great advice. Everyone does it. Everyone needs to do it. They just need to do it to burn themselves and get it over with.
1431
01:54:02.200 --> 01:54:04.040
Maybe. Maybe. You may be right.
1432
01:54:04.840 --> 01:54:10.300
But you're a 100% right that that there's this narrative, and and it's so funny to me because
1433
01:54:10.765 --> 01:54:13.585
there in all the other areas of Bitcoin,
1434
01:54:14.045 --> 01:54:16.864
the the main thing pushed is don't trust, verify.
1435
01:54:17.165 --> 01:54:20.820
You can do all this yourself. You can host your own wallet, you know, unhosted
1436
01:54:21.280 --> 01:54:26.500
hosted wallets, whatever. You can do all this stuff yourself. You can run your own node and all that, and then
1437
01:54:27.415 --> 01:54:30.875
when we get to no. No. No. Leave that to the big guy.
1438
01:54:31.975 --> 01:54:32.475
Alright?
1439
01:54:33.094 --> 01:54:35.550
That's not profitable. Don't even try it.
1440
01:54:36.250 --> 01:54:38.670
And so so many people are turned off on it.
1441
01:54:39.210 --> 01:54:41.465
That's not necessarily the case. It's a very personalized
1442
01:54:48.930 --> 01:54:51.030
at a loss at a, you know,
1443
01:54:52.690 --> 01:54:58.885
a loss they can handle. Let me let me put it like that. You're not gonna mind, at a, you know, losing a 100%. I wouldn't
1444
01:54:59.345 --> 01:55:00.965
expect thank you. But
1445
01:55:01.985 --> 01:55:05.125
the newer generation miners that are coming out right now,
1446
01:55:05.985 --> 01:55:06.805
they they
1447
01:55:08.640 --> 01:55:10.480
they really changed nines anymore.
1448
01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:13.460
So it's one of the things that the 3 gun community
1449
01:55:13.840 --> 01:55:18.545
runs into as well. Everybody still feels like we're in 2013 3 d gun tech,
1450
01:55:20.365 --> 01:55:27.400
and we're not. They don't. An s nine doesn't get you 13 and a half terahash at, you know, 1400 watts used anymore.
1451
01:55:28.260 --> 01:55:29.639
We're beyond that. So
1452
01:55:29.940 --> 01:55:31.400
that's why I wrote,
1453
01:55:31.815 --> 01:55:32.955
mining for the street.
1454
01:55:34.055 --> 01:55:39.435
The link has been shared a few times. It's still on my, key base public folder at
1455
01:55:41.730 --> 01:55:49.270
whatever the the word of vtc slash mining for the streets, whatever that is on my public folder. It's escaping me right now.
1456
01:55:49.825 --> 01:55:52.005
But the point of that was look for it?
1457
01:55:52.705 --> 01:55:53.425
I'm sorry.
1458
01:55:53.745 --> 01:55:54.245
Keybase.pub.
1459
01:55:54.785 --> 01:55:55.925
Is that it? Keybase.pub/diverter.
1460
01:55:57.505 --> 01:55:58.005
Base.pub
1461
01:55:58.670 --> 01:56:03.090
/ diverter what's your name? Diverter what? B t c. B t c.
1462
01:56:03.790 --> 01:56:07.625
I got you. Yeah. I found it. I found it. Okay.
1463
01:56:08.485 --> 01:56:09.144
So I wrote
1464
01:56:09.764 --> 01:56:10.565
that through
1465
01:56:10.965 --> 01:56:18.490
the point of that is just getting across that that this may be something that you should look into, and I know a couple of people have actually done it.
1466
01:56:19.430 --> 01:56:19.930
There
1467
01:56:20.310 --> 01:56:21.450
is a thriving,
1468
01:56:22.630 --> 01:56:23.130
aftermarket
1469
01:56:24.505 --> 01:56:25.005
for,
1470
01:56:25.625 --> 01:56:31.005
for ASICs, especially on Telegram, the one we talked about earlier. Telegram has some terrific groups
1471
01:56:31.510 --> 01:56:33.370
who are verified ASIC resellers,
1472
01:56:33.910 --> 01:56:36.650
where they basically do KYC on themselves
1473
01:56:37.190 --> 01:56:42.165
so that they are listed as a verified seller to try to, you know, keep you from getting scammed
1474
01:56:42.625 --> 01:56:46.485
so they help you out that way. That way, you're not handing over all of your information
1475
01:56:47.000 --> 01:56:51.019
to, to a bit main or a Chinese company who wants to do that.
1476
01:56:51.800 --> 01:56:57.245
So you can get an ASIC without going through you know, handing over too much of your identity.
1477
01:56:58.185 --> 01:56:58.685
And
1478
01:56:59.065 --> 01:56:59.804
when you
1479
01:57:00.425 --> 01:57:02.045
plug these things to your house,
1480
01:57:02.585 --> 01:57:05.680
first the first thing you're gonna wanna do is get rid of any
1481
01:57:06.080 --> 01:57:08.020
girlfriend or wife or child,
1482
01:57:09.760 --> 01:57:12.500
that you may have. That's gonna be the first thing to go
1483
01:57:13.925 --> 01:57:16.105
because these things are loud and they're hot.
1484
01:57:16.485 --> 01:57:21.510
Alright? But those are both so loud. They're so loud. And they're so hot.
1485
01:57:21.989 --> 01:57:25.929
But And they're, like, annoyingly loud. It's like that annoying fucking
1486
01:57:26.789 --> 01:57:29.449
It's so bad. It's so bad. But it's
1487
01:57:30.625 --> 01:57:31.125
manageable.
1488
01:57:33.025 --> 01:57:37.845
Once you do that, there's some screenshot I put on there. You know, I I I've been running,
1489
01:57:38.830 --> 01:57:39.730
the s 17,
1490
01:57:40.670 --> 01:57:43.330
model, s 17 pro model, 50 terahertz.
1491
01:57:44.430 --> 01:57:46.050
I run them in Coleman coolers.
1492
01:57:46.445 --> 01:57:51.585
Alright? I I took a day. I took a drill. I made some terrible looking,
1493
01:57:53.005 --> 01:57:54.065
coolers for
1494
01:57:54.700 --> 01:57:57.840
sound you know, to to keep my sound from being so bad.
1495
01:57:58.220 --> 01:58:07.255
I threw them in these Coleman coolers, cut a couple holes in the side, threw some ducting in there where I can get some cool air in and some hot air out, and suddenly, it's not so bad.
1496
01:58:08.520 --> 01:58:10.059
So it's a little bit of work,
1497
01:58:10.520 --> 01:58:12.460
to to get this done if
1498
01:58:13.239 --> 01:58:14.539
you don't have special
1499
01:58:15.545 --> 01:58:16.045
areas.
1500
01:58:17.144 --> 01:58:19.005
But if you're in the US, your average,
1501
01:58:20.105 --> 01:58:23.565
your average rate for electricity is somewhere around 12 to 13¢
1502
01:58:24.460 --> 01:58:26.320
on the kilowatt hour. Mine's higher.
1503
01:58:27.020 --> 01:58:30.560
Yeah. Depending on your state. So, you know, some states
1504
01:58:31.420 --> 01:58:33.040
are quiet. They actually may have,
1505
01:58:33.555 --> 01:58:35.415
you know, 8¢, 9¢,
1506
01:58:36.355 --> 01:58:40.535
which is definitely manageable. When you're looking at one of these newer generation miners,
1507
01:58:41.489 --> 01:58:46.310
it's early in this in their life cycle. They're just not coming out. So you're probably
1508
01:58:46.690 --> 01:58:47.830
hopefully, we don't
1509
01:58:48.325 --> 01:58:51.065
know yet on what we're looking at with older models.
1510
01:58:51.445 --> 01:58:53.945
Probably gonna be able to get 4 to 5 years,
1511
01:58:54.645 --> 01:58:55.145
work
1512
01:58:55.579 --> 01:58:58.079
of running. If you Well, let's talk about this.
1513
01:58:59.500 --> 01:59:05.795
Let's talk about this for a second. Right? Like, I'd be willing to fucking take I would I would eat a fucking 25%
1514
01:59:06.175 --> 01:59:08.275
premium for KYC free Bitcoin.
1515
01:59:09.135 --> 01:59:11.510
Sure. And, you know, people do it all the time,
1516
01:59:12.469 --> 01:59:14.809
on on disk or ATMs or whatever.
1517
01:59:16.070 --> 01:59:18.250
But, you know, the problem you run into
1518
01:59:18.710 --> 01:59:21.289
with mining at a total loss
1519
01:59:22.055 --> 01:59:22.555
is,
1520
01:59:23.335 --> 01:59:25.275
your return on your initial investment.
1521
01:59:25.735 --> 01:59:31.420
Now, you know, whenever you're gonna go buy one of these newer generation miners, you're gonna put out a couple
1522
01:59:31.720 --> 01:59:32.220
$1,000.
1523
01:59:33.240 --> 01:59:39.740
So now if you're okay with never getting that back, then sure, you can mine at a perpetual loss.
1524
01:59:41.695 --> 01:59:42.195
But
1525
01:59:42.655 --> 01:59:50.280
if you are, you know, in a situation where you do kinda wanna look to get that money back, there's still options open to you,
1526
01:59:51.140 --> 01:59:53.960
outside of even if you can't run it in your house.
1527
01:59:54.420 --> 02:00:00.945
1 of the guys that we deal with a lot in the the samurai groups, you know, he's got some miners that are at a hosting facility,
1528
02:00:02.205 --> 02:00:04.510
just a little ways down from me, And
1529
02:00:05.130 --> 02:00:06.429
he's doing great there.
1530
02:00:07.210 --> 02:00:07.710
Now
1531
02:00:08.650 --> 02:00:10.269
of not not your
1532
02:00:11.465 --> 02:00:19.540
6 and 9, or I guess, you know, if he he's they're in somebody else's warehouse. So, yes, he has to Yeah. That sounds kinda shit cornery to me. Yeah.
1533
02:00:20.000 --> 02:00:21.940
They they won't unplug it and run off.
1534
02:00:24.400 --> 02:00:29.095
The point that I'm getting at is is this stuff tends to get immediately discounted
1535
02:00:29.715 --> 02:00:32.215
as not profitable. Whereas, as you said,
1536
02:00:32.595 --> 02:00:38.179
if you're able to have an electricity rate somewhere in the area and you don't have to pay
1537
02:00:40.159 --> 02:00:42.099
you know, s nines or s
1538
02:00:42.475 --> 02:00:42.975
17
1539
02:00:44.235 --> 02:00:46.815
or you can run them at, you know, 10
1540
02:00:48.475 --> 02:00:49.455
15, 20
1541
02:00:49.869 --> 02:00:53.650
percent loss for all of your information to these centralized images.
1542
02:00:54.829 --> 02:00:55.329
And
1543
02:00:56.590 --> 02:00:57.405
you've got,
1544
02:00:57.724 --> 02:00:59.105
them come to your wallet.
1545
02:01:00.204 --> 02:01:06.340
Every couple weeks, you'll get a a a little download a bit more. The ultimate it's the ultimate stacking sets.
1546
02:01:06.900 --> 02:01:19.275
Right? Because it you're you're it's it's built in dollar cost averaging, basically. You're you're buying the device Absolutely. Ahead of time. You're putting the the capital upfront, but you're getting the Bitcoin on a on an average basis.
1547
02:01:20.695 --> 02:01:25.195
Exactly. That's exactly what what what you're doing. And, you know, we all know,
1548
02:01:26.210 --> 02:01:26.710
DCA
1549
02:01:27.330 --> 02:01:34.630
stacking set is all the rage right now. Stacked set. This is the this is the highest level of that. You know? This is the highest level,
1550
02:01:35.375 --> 02:01:42.355
Until this comes out with some sort of API or something where you can just do auto trades, and still, that's not gonna work out great, by the way.
1551
02:01:43.135 --> 02:01:44.650
But with a miner,
1552
02:01:45.110 --> 02:01:46.170
you really can
1553
02:01:46.630 --> 02:01:51.290
set it up. It doesn't take any technical ability. I promise you it takes none.
1554
02:01:52.025 --> 02:01:56.284
You put it on your same IP address that that wherever you live, whatever
1555
02:01:57.625 --> 02:01:58.125
network
1556
02:02:01.040 --> 02:02:08.705
to the URL and go there, click a button, copy paste, and it's running. I mean, it takes no technical skill.
1557
02:02:09.425 --> 02:02:15.525
It's way easier than people think it is. We're just plugging things in and putting the Ethernet cable in. That's it.
1558
02:02:15.880 --> 02:02:20.220
That's all you gotta do. You plug the power in, plug the Ethernet in, copy paste,
1559
02:02:20.600 --> 02:02:24.085
you know, the the pool that you're gonna mine on, and you're mining.
1560
02:02:24.705 --> 02:02:25.345
What about,
1561
02:02:25.825 --> 02:02:33.045
what about mining shitcoins and auto dumping for Bitcoin? Have you done that through GPU mining at all or no? Just ASICs only?
1562
02:02:33.730 --> 02:02:41.429
Personally, I haven't. No. No. I don't know plenty of people that have. Now I've I've mined a little bit of of, Monero, but never, like,
1563
02:02:41.885 --> 02:02:43.824
actually trying to Yeah.
1564
02:02:44.125 --> 02:02:50.950
Just for shifting giggles. But Yeah. I tried it just to see what they were full of shit about, and they were full of shit correctly.
1565
02:02:51.810 --> 02:02:52.310
I'm
1566
02:02:52.930 --> 02:02:55.830
glad I made my my 5¢ worth of Monero.
1567
02:02:56.210 --> 02:02:56.870
You know?
1568
02:02:57.650 --> 02:02:58.390
Yeah. Exactly.
1569
02:02:59.835 --> 02:03:05.375
Do. Of course, you do. Usually, for Bitcoin, you know, and you're like, damn. I'm getting, you know, I'm getting
1570
02:03:05.755 --> 02:03:06.655
point 000.
1571
02:03:07.195 --> 02:03:10.080
I'm getting, like, a 1000 stats every so but
1572
02:03:11.180 --> 02:03:15.280
that's one of those things where you turn let it run. You come back a week later,
1573
02:03:16.324 --> 02:03:21.224
you know, you in your life and doing whatever you're doing, really buying Bitcoin the whole time, essentially.
1574
02:03:22.724 --> 02:03:24.744
Just a little piece at a time. So
1575
02:03:25.090 --> 02:03:27.349
I just wanna make sure that it it
1576
02:03:27.889 --> 02:03:33.670
doesn't get discounted because so many people that are instantly told the first time they bring up mining,
1577
02:03:33.975 --> 02:03:35.675
you can't do it. It's not profitable.
1578
02:03:35.975 --> 02:03:38.875
It's not even worth, you know, talking about and looking at.
1579
02:03:39.574 --> 02:03:43.110
Check that right up out. There's a couple other guys that have done it,
1580
02:03:43.510 --> 02:03:48.575
since then that you know, I know Econo Alchemist, he's about he's gonna do another write up on it,
1581
02:03:49.695 --> 02:03:53.715
which he does epic Twitter threads if you've ever ridden any of his other threads.
1582
02:03:55.295 --> 02:04:00.470
So, you know, don't just don't discount it. Leave all your options open. Use the tool.
1583
02:04:04.530 --> 02:04:06.390
Thank you. Appreciate that insight.
1584
02:04:08.385 --> 02:04:10.805
I just wanna do a quick shout out to,
1585
02:04:12.065 --> 02:04:12.565
silent.link,
1586
02:04:14.065 --> 02:04:15.205
free grown business.
1587
02:04:16.790 --> 02:04:17.290
Fantastic.
1588
02:04:18.869 --> 02:04:20.010
You get an eSIM,
1589
02:04:20.630 --> 02:04:21.690
and that eSIM,
1590
02:04:23.045 --> 02:04:29.385
is is your phone number, and it's a British phone number. So, you know, deal with it. It it that's what it's gonna be.
1591
02:04:30.730 --> 02:04:34.670
Unfortunately, Graphene and and and and Copperhead do not allow,
1592
02:04:35.770 --> 02:04:42.855
eSIMs, but Kallix OS does allow eSIMs, and it's, like, a pretty easy way to to get a burner phone number,
1593
02:04:43.315 --> 02:04:46.135
with Bitcoin without tying it to your identity.
1594
02:04:47.475 --> 02:04:48.540
So consider it.
1595
02:04:49.420 --> 02:04:50.800
Our our boy, Catan,
1596
02:04:51.820 --> 02:04:52.960
friend of the podcast,
1597
02:04:53.820 --> 02:04:58.525
used it and literally could not shut up about it. So go check that out.
1598
02:05:00.685 --> 02:05:04.205
I I I appreciate you, Diverter. Thank you for,
1599
02:05:04.685 --> 02:05:06.304
giving us that insight there,
1600
02:05:07.000 --> 02:05:07.820
on mining.
1601
02:05:08.600 --> 02:05:13.100
I I think people just don't appreciate the mining aspect. I think it's it's,
1602
02:05:14.475 --> 02:05:21.535
like I said, I would a 100% my I'd mine for, like, 50 to 40% loss. Like, I would just take the fucking huge hit,
1603
02:05:22.330 --> 02:05:38.815
just to have no k y c Bitcoin, and then at the same time, like, you're supporting Bitcoin. And even if you're even if you're mining shit coins and auto dumping to Bitcoin, you're supporting Bitcoin because you're auto dumping shit coins for Bitcoin. So you're increasing the price of Bitcoin and you're decreasing the price of shit coin.
1604
02:05:39.199 --> 02:05:40.659
It's like the best pack ever.
1605
02:05:41.040 --> 02:05:47.139
So regardless of how you decide to mine, whether that's publicly available GPUs or that's ASICs,
1606
02:05:47.765 --> 02:05:56.105
fucking think about doing it. Just try it. Just do it on a small scale. Enjoy it. I should have done it more. I did it, but I I didn't do it hard enough,
1607
02:05:56.960 --> 02:05:59.060
and and just fucking think about doing it.
1608
02:05:59.680 --> 02:06:00.180
Max,
1609
02:06:00.720 --> 02:06:05.300
you've been pretty quiet over there. I want I wanna talk about a little bit before we get going here,
1610
02:06:05.835 --> 02:06:06.735
about this idea
1611
02:06:07.275 --> 02:06:09.295
of of you going from Britain to Singapore.
1612
02:06:10.955 --> 02:06:22.145
To the Bitcoiners out there who are thinking about changing jurisdiction because Bitcoin is pumping and they feel baller as fuck, and they just don't like their jurisdiction, what do you have to say to them?
1613
02:06:23.345 --> 02:06:23.845
Oh,
1614
02:06:25.825 --> 02:06:34.190
it's easier when you're younger. I mean, I'm 37 now. So, I mean, I I first came out, I think, kind of 25 or something.
1615
02:06:35.050 --> 02:06:35.550
So
1616
02:06:36.090 --> 02:06:41.805
the reality is is for most people, you can talk about changing jurisdictions, but it's just not an option
1617
02:06:42.665 --> 02:06:43.325
for a lot.
1618
02:06:43.785 --> 02:06:45.325
You know, you have to deal with
1619
02:06:45.945 --> 02:06:48.765
family being stuck behind and and, you know,
1620
02:06:49.410 --> 02:06:53.670
obviously, it's more difficult now to make these these moves, with the COVID situation.
1621
02:06:54.130 --> 02:07:03.534
And, also, it's more difficult to be abroad, with the COVID situation because you've now got family maybe back home, that you can't visit at certain times. So I think that makes it harder.
1622
02:07:04.780 --> 02:07:08.159
What I would say, I mean, just as a general thing is I think it
1623
02:07:08.699 --> 02:07:17.825
the great thing about moving abroad and changing jurisdictions if you are fortunate enough to be able to do it is I think it gives you a better perspective on things back home.
1624
02:07:19.005 --> 02:07:28.620
It's very easy to be arrogant and proud of your political system, to culture and all that. And then to look at it back in a different light, I think,
1625
02:07:29.179 --> 02:07:30.159
is pretty important.
1626
02:07:31.335 --> 02:07:35.114
And certainly, when I came to Singapore, you know, 12 years ago or whatever,
1627
02:07:36.215 --> 02:07:37.435
I couldn't understand
1628
02:07:38.215 --> 02:07:39.995
how somewhere that
1629
02:07:40.600 --> 02:07:41.740
had no real
1630
02:07:42.200 --> 02:07:52.445
semblance of democracy in the meaningful sense of the word because it's a one it's effectively a one party government here, and it has been for the same party for years. How it could be so kind of economically
1631
02:07:52.985 --> 02:07:56.844
free and free in other ways. Obviously, there there are some quite substantial
1632
02:07:57.630 --> 02:07:59.250
freedom restrictions here as well.
1633
02:07:59.870 --> 02:08:03.890
But, you know, but by not having what we in, say, UK or US,
1634
02:08:04.350 --> 02:08:06.850
would view as a kind of free system.
1635
02:08:07.375 --> 02:08:15.074
And then for me, it's again, it kinda comes into trade offs, but you when you actually start realizing it, you see that the kind of the
1636
02:08:16.090 --> 02:08:23.550
the political system is only one part of it. The economic liberalism is a huge aspect. You know? I have no capital gains taxes out here.
1637
02:08:24.135 --> 02:08:25.835
The income tax is a lot lower.
1638
02:08:26.695 --> 02:08:28.555
You know, the the ability to travel,
1639
02:08:28.935 --> 02:08:29.835
until recently,
1640
02:08:30.135 --> 02:08:38.139
unlike the rest of the world, yeah, unlike the rest of the world, it was also substantially freer. I think he's a great thing to do. I think he's worth doing. I just think that, ultimately,
1641
02:08:38.440 --> 02:08:40.619
you know, there is a cost to moving. You
1642
02:08:41.585 --> 02:08:49.605
just sitting on a business. It's obviously harder if you're going with a job and is taking you over. That's that's substantially easier, and you kinda get softened kind of impact
1643
02:08:50.770 --> 02:08:52.710
to to to the kind of the adjustment.
1644
02:08:53.330 --> 02:08:58.290
But, you know, you have to you do have to kind of put up with a new culture and learn how to,
1645
02:08:59.515 --> 02:09:01.195
to to adapt somewhat. And,
1646
02:09:02.155 --> 02:09:04.815
so, yeah, I'll tell you now, I'm not I'm not the best at adapting.
1647
02:09:05.355 --> 02:09:10.699
Everywhere I walk is like little patch of England, and I'm not, yeah, I'm not the most kind of culturally aware.
1648
02:09:12.440 --> 02:09:17.455
But, you know, somewhere like Singapore, for example, I can't think of many better places to be at the moment.
1649
02:09:17.935 --> 02:09:22.915
We haven't got kind of the political problems like in Hong Kong. And it's nothing like that here.
1650
02:09:23.935 --> 02:09:26.845
It's, you know, it's very easy to start a business.
1651
02:09:28.000 --> 02:09:30.900
It's, you know, it's it's a good place to work and live.
1652
02:09:32.000 --> 02:09:34.340
And, by and large, you know,
1653
02:09:34.880 --> 02:09:35.380
it's
1654
02:09:36.125 --> 02:09:37.505
it's a pretty free society,
1655
02:09:38.125 --> 02:09:42.065
with a lot there, but it does depend on kind of what's important to you.
1656
02:09:42.445 --> 02:09:43.345
If you're into
1657
02:09:44.320 --> 02:09:45.540
recreational pharmaceuticals
1658
02:09:46.000 --> 02:09:46.500
or,
1659
02:09:47.840 --> 02:09:51.380
or or guns, you know, you're you're not gonna have such a good time. And
1660
02:09:51.745 --> 02:09:52.405
If you
1661
02:09:52.785 --> 02:09:59.525
if, you know, if you like to be able to to drink outside and not be, like, in the US forced to drink your alcohol in a in a brown paper
1662
02:10:02.770 --> 02:10:06.390
And, yeah, it's it's it's awesome. Like, it's substantially better than the US in that perspective.
1663
02:10:06.690 --> 02:10:07.190
And,
1664
02:10:08.210 --> 02:10:08.710
but,
1665
02:10:09.315 --> 02:10:17.815
but, yes, so so I I think it's, it's always worth considering these things. And if you do get the opportunity, it's worth taking. But it is a it's a big it's a big move to make.
1666
02:10:25.210 --> 02:10:26.590
I appreciate it, Max.
1667
02:10:27.735 --> 02:10:29.835
I look forward to visiting you in Singapore,
1668
02:10:30.455 --> 02:10:31.675
when all this bullshit,
1669
02:10:32.614 --> 02:10:40.150
Yeah. It'd be great. That's a good group here, and it's a good, like, me and Tina, like, the Singapore big time group. It's, like, very, very I mean,
1670
02:10:40.710 --> 02:11:24.110
it's not just for the next batch or anything. That's the fact that it's probably mostly locals. We've got people that work What about the chewing gum thing? Has that hit you hard? Did you were you a gum chewer before you went to Singapore, and then you were like, I don't I'm not gonna do it. I don't wanna risk a felony. Like, what what how how did that how did that end up? Actually, like, nothing is really just like I think it really affected. I'm chewing gum, and I I I'd like this is the fact I never did drugs when I was younger at all or even now. So, like, I mean, this is the only thing that makes me the difference to some of the Bitcoiners who kind of got familiar with it through darknet markets. Like, I just never had any interest. I mean, all I wanna do is drink. And when I came here, I could drink and there's no problem with that. So it was like same as London, really. It's like that easy.
1671
02:11:24.570 --> 02:11:26.010
So I took to it pretty easily.
1672
02:11:26.570 --> 02:11:35.205
So now, like, it's I think the only thing really, like, that you would potentially notice here is, like, the press freedom is is massively limited.
1673
02:11:35.905 --> 02:11:48.465
But then, you know, I haven't I haven't read the local newspaper. I haven't paid any attention to anything much to my girlfriend's concern because she gets worried I'm gonna, like, break the local kind of COVID regulations by walking around without a mask and all that.
1674
02:11:49.325 --> 02:11:51.105
And, yeah, I mean, I just you know?
1675
02:11:51.485 --> 02:11:51.985
And
1676
02:11:52.845 --> 02:12:09.015
these are the things we're right is is, like, you we like, the country rates terribly on, like, the free press index, I believe. But, you know, when you got the Internet, does that really matter? Like, it doesn't make any difference to your your day to day stuff. And I think the other thing is the government is,
1677
02:12:09.715 --> 02:12:18.870
you know, quite overboard in in in in with freedoms. At the same time, they actually didn't step in too much. Wait. That's interesting. That's interesting. Just,
1678
02:12:19.945 --> 02:12:28.204
so so your your freedom to press is, like, kinda shitty over there, but but they're not going after Internet. So you can view every press.
1679
02:12:28.630 --> 02:12:34.330
So Right. Yes. You can well, we have a restricted sites that you can I mean, obviously, changing What's restricted?
1680
02:12:35.750 --> 02:12:43.205
Like, tons of porn sites restricted. I'm pretty sure Pirate Bay is, but they're like What about the VPNs? Do they block, like, the big VPNs?
1681
02:12:43.505 --> 02:12:44.725
VPNs, no problem.
1682
02:12:45.105 --> 02:12:45.680
You can
1683
02:12:56.065 --> 02:13:00.485
Correct. But then you just pay Mullvad Bitcoin, and you just go Yeah. And and make a point.
1684
02:13:00.785 --> 02:13:09.550
Yeah. And it's like it's it's it's a, although it's like, it's it's a heavily Chinese ethnically Chinese country, like, the the main political parties
1685
02:13:09.929 --> 02:13:11.550
quite got quite kind of Christian
1686
02:13:12.905 --> 02:13:20.525
origins, I'd say, and there's still kind of quite heavy Christian aspects to that where the kind of the rank yeah. The the rank most of the Chinese here are kind of Buddhist.
1687
02:13:21.810 --> 02:13:24.630
So you've actually got kind of slightly more conservative policy,
1688
02:13:25.330 --> 02:13:25.830
amongst
1689
02:13:26.930 --> 02:13:29.995
politicians with how things reacted versus, you know,
1690
02:13:30.555 --> 02:13:31.935
the rest of the country.
1691
02:13:32.235 --> 02:13:36.015
So, yeah, things are actually incredibly free sexually, for example,
1692
02:13:36.715 --> 02:13:37.215
here,
1693
02:13:37.900 --> 02:13:40.320
in ways that would open a lot of Americans' eyes.
1694
02:13:40.860 --> 02:13:42.400
But yet online is conservative,
1695
02:13:42.860 --> 02:13:44.060
so it's kinda quite,
1696
02:13:44.460 --> 02:13:46.800
quite quite different from from that perspective.
1697
02:13:47.475 --> 02:13:52.775
But that being said, like, I mean, you know, this is not to kind of paper over some utopia. I mean,
1698
02:13:53.795 --> 02:13:54.615
there's an
1699
02:13:54.995 --> 02:14:05.805
if you've like, there's a couple of, like, high profile cases of someone even, like, holding up, like, a smiley face in front of the government and protect and doing a small form of protest. So there's absolutely no protests.
1700
02:14:06.425 --> 02:14:08.605
They get cracked down on incredibly quickly.
1701
02:14:09.145 --> 02:14:09.645
And,
1702
02:14:11.440 --> 02:14:14.340
you know, you you you don't poke the bear in that respect,
1703
02:14:14.880 --> 02:14:15.380
here.
1704
02:14:15.760 --> 02:14:22.155
And, you know, the the actions are kind of very swift. And if and again, we're in a country that's got a lot of foreign workers.
1705
02:14:22.614 --> 02:14:34.980
People will tow the line more because the punishments are very easy for them to do because if, you know, they've obviously confined or imprisoned you, but they could just take away work permits and, you know, business passes. You'd just be out on your ass pretty quickly.
1706
02:14:35.975 --> 02:14:36.635
So that's,
1707
02:14:37.335 --> 02:14:46.119
you know, so that, you know, it's not all kind of, you know, freedom at all. It's just that I think for a lot of people, it's an acceptable trade off.
1708
02:14:51.615 --> 02:14:52.995
I appreciate that insight.
1709
02:14:53.535 --> 02:14:54.515
As an American,
1710
02:14:55.135 --> 02:14:59.235
it is very foreign to me. It is not something that I
1711
02:15:00.570 --> 02:15:02.270
would inherently understand.
1712
02:15:03.130 --> 02:15:04.670
So I appreciate you
1713
02:15:06.490 --> 02:15:09.150
kind of showing that that light to us. And
1714
02:15:09.895 --> 02:15:15.195
and like I said, I I I I I am excited to visit. I I think, to me, Singapore
1715
02:15:16.054 --> 02:15:16.554
is
1716
02:15:18.190 --> 02:15:28.255
really fucking cool because to me, like, that's the whole idea of Citadel theory. Right? Is that this idea that we could have, like, city states. Like, we could have these smaller jurisdictions
1717
02:15:28.835 --> 02:15:29.335
that
1718
02:15:29.915 --> 02:15:30.415
have,
1719
02:15:32.074 --> 02:15:41.890
unilateral control over over how they they decide their jurisdiction is run. And then all of a sudden you have competition, and we have really cool things happening.
1720
02:15:43.310 --> 02:15:46.895
And, obviously, like everyone knows Singapore is a massive global port
1721
02:15:48.655 --> 02:15:49.155
that,
1722
02:15:49.855 --> 02:15:50.595
you know,
1723
02:15:51.215 --> 02:15:55.075
like, makes makes New York show respect, which is impressive.
1724
02:15:55.730 --> 02:15:59.590
As a New Yorker, that's impressive, and I I embrace that, and I respect that.
1725
02:16:01.170 --> 02:16:05.185
So, I mean, I we've gone we've gone for over 2 hours here. I appreciate all
1726
02:16:05.485 --> 02:16:12.145
the freaks who have tuned in. I appreciate all the freaks who are going to listen to this through the podcast feeds.
1727
02:16:13.220 --> 02:16:14.840
I appreciate both you guys.
1728
02:16:16.020 --> 02:16:17.000
So, I mean,
1729
02:16:17.860 --> 02:16:20.440
let's just let's just wrap this up with,
1730
02:16:22.335 --> 02:16:27.715
I I I will I have not given this to other guests, but, you know, we're episode 5, and we have no formula.
1731
02:16:28.175 --> 02:16:28.495
So,
1732
02:16:29.375 --> 02:16:31.235
we're figuring out as we go.
1733
02:16:31.760 --> 02:16:39.755
Diverter, you know, last comments to the freaks, until I have you back, which will be soon. I promise you, and I appreciate you for coming on.
1734
02:16:40.235 --> 02:16:42.575
Yeah. Hit them hit them with your last comments.
1735
02:16:43.035 --> 02:16:47.055
Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been a blast, man. I can't hope to do it
1736
02:16:47.520 --> 02:16:48.020
Yeah.
1737
02:16:49.680 --> 02:16:57.935
Can leave people with when we're looking about secure messengers and what is and what isn't. The the best thing I could do is is I could tell you what I run.
1738
02:16:58.795 --> 02:17:03.615
If you've got questions about them, be free to hit me up about it, and we can talk
1739
02:17:04.075 --> 02:17:04.975
and we can talk.
1740
02:17:06.120 --> 02:17:09.341
I can just hit you with that. And, otherwise, if you wanna catch me,
1741
02:17:10.280 --> 02:17:11.341
check out coin.com.
1742
02:17:12.761 --> 02:17:13.820
Matt linked earlier.
1743
02:17:14.625 --> 02:17:18.404
The Bear Arms at Bitcoin conference, I believe it's April 10th 11th,
1744
02:17:19.265 --> 02:17:21.765
in Austin, Texas. So if you can come,
1745
02:17:22.200 --> 02:17:23.420
hope to see you there.
1746
02:17:25.320 --> 02:17:26.380
Besides that,
1747
02:17:29.055 --> 02:17:30.914
so so I'm an Android maximalist.
1748
02:17:32.734 --> 02:17:36.515
I'm currently on a Pixel 4 a. It's running Copperhead OS.
1749
02:17:39.030 --> 02:17:41.931
Secure messaging, I I do I go to signal
1750
02:17:44.815 --> 02:17:46.275
and, and 3 your messages.
1751
02:17:47.055 --> 02:17:48.255
I built the 3 map,
1752
02:17:48.735 --> 02:17:53.395
APK from the source code, installed it on my phone. It was dead easy. Works
1753
02:17:53.931 --> 02:17:54.431
great.
1754
02:17:55.130 --> 02:17:57.710
I haven't done that with signal. It will one day.
1755
02:17:58.250 --> 02:18:00.090
But those are my what I go to when I wanna
1756
02:18:00.985 --> 02:18:02.285
actually have a messenger.
1757
02:18:03.226 --> 02:18:07.806
Hell, I use right now for my daily driver email is, c templar.
1758
02:18:09.739 --> 02:18:10.239
Dtemplar.com,
1759
02:18:10.859 --> 02:18:13.760
or they have the nonunion address as well, which I do not remember.
1760
02:18:14.699 --> 02:18:16.319
But it's a great encrypted
1761
02:18:17.585 --> 02:18:20.325
email client. I like it. They're being built out.
1762
02:18:20.705 --> 02:18:21.445
It's not
1763
02:18:21.985 --> 02:18:27.270
quite so, intuitive maybe or easy to use yet as, like, a proton or 2 genoda,
1764
02:18:27.650 --> 02:18:29.270
but it's one to keep your eye on.
1765
02:18:31.570 --> 02:18:32.551
For my notes,
1766
02:18:33.011 --> 02:18:35.591
my encrypted note apps, I use standard notes.
1767
02:18:35.926 --> 02:18:36.586
Fuck yes.
1768
02:18:37.445 --> 02:18:43.145
Love standard notes. They just recently had a really good audit, and they changed some of their cryptography. I made it a lot
1769
02:18:43.511 --> 02:18:46.891
stronger. Assume it's looks really good. Assume it's fucked.
1770
02:18:47.351 --> 02:18:50.410
Assume it's fucked, but good. It's good. Sure. Yeah.
1771
02:18:52.435 --> 02:18:56.455
Of course. Love it. Like, that's my life. Just assume it's fucked, but it's good.
1772
02:18:57.314 --> 02:18:57.814
Absolutely.
1773
02:18:58.354 --> 02:18:58.854
Absolutely.
1774
02:18:59.480 --> 02:18:59.980
Sorry.
1775
02:19:01.000 --> 02:19:05.500
Social social media my social media app, like I said, as Max mentioned earlier,
1776
02:19:06.200 --> 02:19:09.305
Telegram is is honestly my social media feed.
1777
02:19:10.104 --> 02:19:17.005
I also spend some time on, you know, not so much Twitter anymore, a little bit on Mastodon, Matrix, blah blah blah. But
1778
02:19:17.689 --> 02:19:21.310
my main go to for for that is is Telegram. I love it.
1779
02:19:23.210 --> 02:19:28.235
Bitcoin wallet. This is a bit of a surprise. It may shock some people to know this,
1780
02:19:28.695 --> 02:19:33.080
but my Bitcoin wallet, I prefer is actually samurai wallet. Believe that or not. You.
1781
02:19:34.760 --> 02:19:41.270
So all I use, I run my dojo. I keep local spinning, and and we get it done. Alright. You know what it is. Surprise.
1782
02:19:42.495 --> 02:19:43.555
Shocking. I know.
1783
02:19:44.255 --> 02:19:47.555
My keyboard I'm using is tesser cube. I mentioned that earlier. Tesserpt.com.
1784
02:19:48.175 --> 02:19:49.955
You can find that somewhere in the market.
1785
02:19:51.300 --> 02:19:53.859
Supposedly, there's a version 2 coming out,
1786
02:19:54.420 --> 02:19:54.920
soon.
1787
02:19:55.380 --> 02:19:57.399
T m soon. Not gonna happen.
1788
02:19:59.614 --> 02:20:00.914
But it works. It
1789
02:20:02.095 --> 02:20:02.994
works. Browsers,
1790
02:20:03.295 --> 02:20:04.034
I I
1791
02:20:04.414 --> 02:20:06.435
Tor Browser. Obviously, I love Tor.
1792
02:20:07.279 --> 02:20:09.140
I've been using a lot more lately,
1793
02:20:09.520 --> 02:20:10.580
Bromite, which,
1794
02:20:11.279 --> 02:20:15.460
as we all saw earlier when I was trying to hook up to this chat, sometimes it may
1795
02:20:16.245 --> 02:20:24.425
cause a little so, you know, it's all trade offs on what it may it may be good for you. But I also like, like, an ungoogled Chromium,
1796
02:20:25.449 --> 02:20:25.949
browser.
1797
02:20:27.529 --> 02:20:28.029
VPN,
1798
02:20:29.050 --> 02:20:42.875
of course, small bed right now. They had they gave me a scare the other day when they took Bitcoin off as a payment option and left BCAD. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. That was some bullshit. That was just fine. They just had a bug or something. Like, people just fucking freaked out for no reason.
1799
02:20:44.220 --> 02:20:46.239
Movad's good. Everyone use Movad.
1800
02:20:47.340 --> 02:20:48.800
Everything's fine there.
1801
02:20:49.819 --> 02:20:55.275
So yeah. I mean oh, mobile mobile PGP. Open. Open keychain. That's it. That's all I got.
1802
02:20:55.814 --> 02:20:56.715
Open keychain.
1803
02:20:57.655 --> 02:21:00.395
We didn't talk about PGP at all. I'll bring you guys back.
1804
02:21:00.780 --> 02:21:02.400
Like, if you care about PGP,
1805
02:21:03.101 --> 02:21:03.761
use it.
1806
02:21:04.380 --> 02:21:09.395
If you care about privacy, use PGP. PGP is the best thing to do. I have,
1807
02:21:09.775 --> 02:21:11.875
a good guide linked at usepgp.com,
1808
02:21:13.295 --> 02:21:14.355
which is a very
1809
02:21:15.830 --> 02:21:21.770
easy domain to remember. Some other random dude made the guide. I just linked to it.
1810
02:21:23.245 --> 02:21:24.945
So go go check that out.
1811
02:21:25.645 --> 02:21:27.025
You should use PGP.
1812
02:21:27.805 --> 02:21:28.305
Diverter,
1813
02:21:28.765 --> 02:21:30.465
before we we leave you,
1814
02:21:31.700 --> 02:21:32.760
January 192022,
1815
02:21:34.180 --> 02:21:35.640
what is the price of Bitcoin?
1816
02:21:36.979 --> 02:21:38.200
What is it right now?
1817
02:21:38.716 --> 02:21:47.296
No. No. No. No. No. 2020 2. I like this idea. This was S&M, by the way, who, by the way, is a freak who just keeps performing.
1818
02:21:47.600 --> 02:21:48.819
I I like freaks.
1819
02:21:49.279 --> 02:21:59.955
Like, the whole point of the show is that I want the freaks to be the host. I want you guys to take my responsibility away from me and handle for me, and I will just spotlight
1820
02:22:00.415 --> 02:22:07.551
you. S and m has done that. I like this idea that at the end of every show, I should ask the price prediction a year from now.
1821
02:22:08.330 --> 02:22:10.990
What what what will the Bitcoin price be?
1822
02:22:11.931 --> 02:22:14.595
Diverter hit us. This just hit $50,000.
1823
02:22:15.535 --> 02:22:16.755
Let's fucking go.
1824
02:22:17.215 --> 02:22:18.195
I see that.
1825
02:22:19.295 --> 02:22:20.515
I I tell you what.
1826
02:22:20.940 --> 02:22:24.320
Since Biscuit's sitting on 50, I mean, it's hard not to go high here.
1827
02:22:25.101 --> 02:22:26.940
Honestly, though, we got a new,
1828
02:22:27.580 --> 02:22:33.075
United States administration coming in with Biden and, I mean, some of the plans they've already got.
1829
02:22:33.455 --> 02:22:36.435
Money printer is most definitely getting ready to go BRRRR.
1830
02:22:37.455 --> 02:22:39.051
So with that in
1831
02:22:40.431 --> 02:22:40.931
mind,
1832
02:22:42.471 --> 02:22:43.530
I'm gonna go ahead.
1833
02:22:44.950 --> 02:22:45.450
125,
1834
02:22:45.830 --> 02:22:49.435
man. 125. There we go. Thank you, my dude.
1835
02:22:50.535 --> 02:22:53.035
You're a little low, but it was a good it was a good guess.
1836
02:22:54.930 --> 02:22:57.190
Someone asked someone asked in the comments,
1837
02:22:57.730 --> 02:22:58.230
ProtonVPN
1838
02:22:58.850 --> 02:23:10.846
versus MoleVAD. I mean, they're both good. Proton's got good reputation. I just like Movad better. I think Movad's better. I think you pay with Bitcoin. Max Keiser's jumping in at, like, the end of 2 hours. It's like classic
1839
02:23:11.226 --> 02:23:14.680
Max. Shout out shout out Max Kaiser for joining us.
1840
02:23:15.061 --> 02:23:17.080
I just think MOLVAD is I I
1841
02:23:17.620 --> 02:23:20.040
I don't know what it is. It's just a gut thing.
1842
02:23:20.375 --> 02:23:23.515
It just feels more real. It just feels like they care,
1843
02:23:23.895 --> 02:23:29.230
and and you're just trusting them. At the end of the day, a hosted VPN provider, you're trusting them. Sure.
1844
02:23:29.690 --> 02:23:30.670
Yeah. Agree.
1845
02:23:31.930 --> 02:23:32.430
Max,
1846
02:23:33.050 --> 02:23:33.790
hit us.
1847
02:23:35.984 --> 02:23:41.444
I could oh, is it just, like, final thoughts, wasn't it? Yeah. Final thoughts. Hit us with with what what you wanna hit us.
1848
02:23:41.905 --> 02:23:44.484
I you know, we're 5 5 weeks into
1849
02:23:44.851 --> 02:23:48.870
dispatch. I'll probably have you guys back on in another 6 weeks or something like that.
1850
02:23:49.330 --> 02:23:50.230
Look. I mean,
1851
02:23:50.610 --> 02:23:56.035
first off, look, thanks for having me on and everything. It's It's really good to chat to kinda Thanks for joining, bro. Fantastic.
1852
02:23:56.815 --> 02:24:00.355
I think just 2 things I'd kinda leave everyone with is,
1853
02:24:02.540 --> 02:24:04.560
one, just pay it forward.
1854
02:24:05.100 --> 02:24:05.840
I mean,
1855
02:24:06.540 --> 02:24:19.635
since the earliest days that I got involved, I cannot kind of thank enough for generosity of people that walked me through things and went through and explained. And I think it's everyone's beauty that when you get that from the others that welcome you in,
1856
02:24:20.210 --> 02:24:21.750
to continue to do that.
1857
02:24:22.210 --> 02:24:23.110
Yeah. You
1858
02:24:24.851 --> 02:24:26.950
you really should do that, and it pays dividends.
1859
02:24:28.205 --> 02:24:36.785
I'm honestly overwhelmed with the info I get from people. There's, and, you know, in a in a particularly difficult year, such as 2020, which in for us changed a lot of people in different ways,
1860
02:24:37.181 --> 02:24:48.615
having a bunch of people online, that I can argue with, that can make me laugh and all that, it also can help me, has been absolutely critical. So, like, that will be as important for this year as it was for last.
1861
02:24:49.315 --> 02:24:49.815
Secondly,
1862
02:24:51.235 --> 02:24:52.695
just learn to manage your keys
1863
02:24:53.141 --> 02:24:53.960
whether it's Bitcoin,
1864
02:24:54.341 --> 02:25:00.440
whether it's encrypting messaging. There I see no way around that. And anyone that says, you know, that
1865
02:25:01.215 --> 02:25:22.295
you don't need to do that and you're gonna be you know, that there's gonna be kind of mass adoption ways to get around that, I I don't see it. Like, for the moment, for anytime soon, this is what we've got to deal with. So back up, make sure you've got, you know, redundancy and all that, and, make sure also your loved ones have got access to it. Don't be so over the top with your paranoia that only you can access that.
1866
02:25:22.854 --> 02:25:28.715
If you're the only one that can access your coins, then you need to make some life choices about getting some more important people in your life to
1867
02:25:29.050 --> 02:25:32.510
to hand those over to if you go. Like, that's what it's all about.
1868
02:25:33.130 --> 02:25:34.189
So definitely that.
1869
02:25:35.370 --> 02:25:37.050
You know, I I won't go in kind of,
1870
02:25:38.255 --> 02:25:53.040
a recount of kind of that's amazing at the moment. I think Diverter's got plenty on there and overlaps with me. But what I would say is something that we probably didn't cover as much in today's podcast, but it's also something that would be good for a net future one is probably more kind of plans for self hosting.
1871
02:25:53.845 --> 02:25:59.045
It's something I've discussed with people like Katan and the other guys as well. But,
1872
02:25:59.525 --> 02:26:06.610
you know, shout out to MoSaaS as well. He's done a lot of the work on the Bitcoin enemies front. I think it will all be important for us this year to look for user,
1873
02:26:06.990 --> 02:26:08.590
friendly ways of doing stuff like,
1874
02:26:09.615 --> 02:26:11.155
sign up service for matrix
1875
02:26:11.535 --> 02:26:14.675
and hosting your own Mastodon, Pluroma, that kind of thing,
1876
02:26:15.055 --> 02:26:19.520
and getting ahead, like, yeah, we've always gotta be one step ahead. And I think looking at those,
1877
02:26:20.300 --> 02:26:23.200
and looking at the best solutions there is the natural next step,
1878
02:26:23.660 --> 02:26:25.520
for moving the kind of the
1879
02:26:26.415 --> 02:26:26.994
the concentrated
1880
02:26:27.375 --> 02:26:35.920
kind of community that we have on a few centralized places at the moment to something a bit more distributed. So look out for the companies that provide the best solutions to do that
1881
02:26:36.479 --> 02:26:37.700
and pay for those services.
1882
02:26:39.200 --> 02:26:39.600
And,
1883
02:26:40.080 --> 02:26:54.650
you know, like, I think, you know, hit me up as well if you wanna know how to do PGP or whatever. I've done that with plenty of people. Always happy to help there. And, yeah, best place probably to find me is Telegram or on the email at the moment, and you can also find me on Twitter.
1884
02:26:56.070 --> 02:26:58.570
Oh, that's freaking awesome. I just wanted to say that,
1885
02:27:00.710 --> 02:27:01.210
I
1886
02:27:02.855 --> 02:27:04.315
I feel bad because
1887
02:27:05.495 --> 02:27:13.811
to this day I've been in Bitcoin for a long time to this day. Like, if I died right now, like, oh, my family would just be fucked. Like, you you get no Bitcoin.
1888
02:27:14.430 --> 02:27:19.250
All that Bitcoin's gone. I'm just so paranoid that my errors are at risk. So,
1889
02:27:20.375 --> 02:27:23.835
and this is coming from someone who has a dead man switch as a product.
1890
02:27:24.215 --> 02:27:28.235
I'll put it out at final message dot io if you wanna check it out.
1891
02:27:29.560 --> 02:27:42.375
But I just don't even trust my own service with that. So I just fucking I just live in a life where if I die tomorrow, it's just a contribution to all you Bitcoiners. I mean, they'll get some of it, but they just won't get the majority of it.
1892
02:27:43.955 --> 02:27:47.570
And, I just appreciate you guys. I mean, the whole point of this show
1893
02:27:48.030 --> 02:27:50.690
is to embrace the freaks that join us live,
1894
02:27:51.870 --> 02:27:58.535
and I love the freaks that don't join us live as well. I'm not I'm not saying I don't I don't love you guys. Thank you for coming for the archive.
1895
02:27:59.795 --> 02:28:10.910
And and and and the whole point the whole point is just to have a good time and just have people who are my friends on, and I appreciate you guys for joining us. I I think you guys are gonna be on in the future as well.
1896
02:28:12.375 --> 02:28:16.075
I hope if you if you will if you'll join us again. Great.
1897
02:28:17.015 --> 02:28:23.630
And and I said last week, pump the NIMS, and so here we are. You know, let's pump the fucking NIMs, and that's what it's all about.
1898
02:28:25.610 --> 02:28:28.270
Yeah. Yep. We'll have our HR on Thursday
1899
02:28:28.615 --> 02:28:37.195
at 2 PM. What, Deborah? Do you have something to say? Yeah. I mean, I I I you know, I love you and Max, but I can't let did Max give his price prediction?
1900
02:28:38.400 --> 02:28:41.620
Oh, no. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
1901
02:28:42.160 --> 02:28:43.540
you. Thank you. Max.
1902
02:28:43.920 --> 02:28:45.700
Max, this time next year,
1903
02:28:46.186 --> 02:28:46.686
price
1904
02:28:47.065 --> 02:28:47.565
prediction.
1905
02:28:47.945 --> 02:28:49.806
ACK? I'm always bearish.
1906
02:28:53.945 --> 02:29:00.740
I love I just want him I just want him on the record. That's all. I just want him on the record. Yeah. I'll go for 80 k next year.
1907
02:29:02.400 --> 02:29:03.700
Wait. So what'd you say?
1908
02:29:04.125 --> 02:29:08.545
80,000. Yeah. Right? 80,000? You fucking bear, you little piece of shit.
1909
02:29:08.925 --> 02:29:11.350
Okay. So, he's gonna get wrecked.
1910
02:29:11.830 --> 02:29:15.210
What is shit corner coming in with that shitty ass prediction?
1911
02:29:15.909 --> 02:29:20.330
And I look forward to having you back here while we destroy you on that prediction.
1912
02:29:22.176 --> 02:29:24.275
And I just to all the other freaks,
1913
02:29:24.976 --> 02:29:34.860
stay humble, stack stats, and join us on Thursday for rabbit hole recap, probably around 2 PM. We don't have a set time because it's just me and Marty just chilling.
1914
02:29:35.240 --> 02:29:37.101
So we love you all, and,
1915
02:29:38.280 --> 02:29:39.660
stay humble, stack sets.
1916
02:29:39.985 --> 02:29:40.485
Thanks,
1917
02:29:47.141 --> 02:29:49.080
my bags last night. Free
1918
02:29:49.540 --> 02:29:50.040
flight.
1919
02:29:53.700 --> 02:29:54.520
0 out.
1920
02:29:55.324 --> 02:29:56.225
9 AM.
1921
02:29:59.885 --> 02:30:01.505
And I'm gonna be
1922
02:30:03.245 --> 02:30:03.745
high
1923
02:30:05.180 --> 02:30:07.040
as a kite by then.
1924
02:30:22.061 --> 02:30:22.800
It's lonely
1925
02:30:23.180 --> 02:30:24.160
out of space.
1926
02:30:27.900 --> 02:30:29.280
On such a time,
1927
02:30:31.180 --> 02:30:32.145
I'm as
1928
02:30:36.127 --> 02:30:36.627
white.
1929
02:31:41.055 --> 02:31:42.515
To raise your kids.
1930
02:31:46.175 --> 02:31:48.595
In fact, it's cold as hell.
1931
02:31:52.320 --> 02:31:56.101
And there's no one there to raise them.
1932
02:31:57.405 --> 02:31:57.905
If
1933
02:31:58.365 --> 02:31:59.104
you did.
1934
02:33:28.145 --> 02:33:31.525
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time.
1935
02:33:35.221 --> 02:33:38.601
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time.
1936
02:33:42.175 --> 02:33:45.475
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time.
1937
02:34:27.490 --> 02:34:30.070
Love you, freaks. Stay humble. Stack stats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:30 PM
Duration: 9272.816
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.399 --> 00:00:02.260
2
00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:06.740
by any account. I mean, when you look at the at the most recent developments
3
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:09.860
upward and now the most recent downward trend,
4
00:00:10.224 --> 00:00:14.164
It's for those who had assumed that it might turn into a currency,
5
00:00:14.625 --> 00:00:18.164
terribly sorry, but this is an asset and it's a highly speculative asset,
6
00:00:19.100 --> 00:00:19.600
which,
7
00:00:20.940 --> 00:00:26.240
which has conducted some funny business and some interesting and totally reprehensible
8
00:00:26.620 --> 00:00:27.840
money laundering activity.
9
00:00:28.375 --> 00:00:41.250
I think that there are criminal investigations that have taken place that I'm sure will continue to take place that demonstrate it, very clearly. And and there has to be regulations, and and this has to be, this has to be applied,
10
00:00:42.110 --> 00:00:48.695
and and agreed upon. It's a matter that needs to be agreed at a global level because, you know, if there is an escape,
11
00:00:49.315 --> 00:00:52.775
that escape will be used. So I think it needs to be to be
12
00:00:53.310 --> 00:00:55.410
if if if anything, it shows that
13
00:00:55.950 --> 00:01:04.915
global cooperation, multilateral action is absolutely needed, whether it's initiated by the g 7, moved into the g 20, and then enlarged, but it's something that needs to be,
14
00:01:05.375 --> 00:01:10.595
to be addressed. And and, FATAP is clearly an organization that has expanded in that respect.
15
00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:53.899
16
00:01:54.465 --> 00:01:56.244
I'm your host, Matt O'Dell,
17
00:01:56.784 --> 00:01:58.164
the show that's broadcast
18
00:01:58.465 --> 00:02:00.564
live weekly to you every Tuesday
19
00:02:00.945 --> 00:02:01.765
at 22100
20
00:02:02.704 --> 00:02:03.204
UTC.
21
00:02:04.460 --> 00:02:09.440
You can find us on Twitch, Twitter, and YouTube. All the links are at citadel dispatch.com.
22
00:02:11.175 --> 00:02:13.515
This week, I'm joined by my friends
23
00:02:13.815 --> 00:02:14.315
Diverter
24
00:02:14.694 --> 00:02:15.834
and Max Tannehill.
25
00:02:17.815 --> 00:02:18.635
These guys
26
00:02:19.099 --> 00:02:21.120
are have become close friends with me.
27
00:02:21.660 --> 00:02:23.360
We talk about all things privacy.
28
00:02:25.580 --> 00:02:29.275
It's our favorite topic, so I figured who better to join me than them.
29
00:02:30.535 --> 00:02:36.635
I at this point, I I I just wanna say cheers to all the freaks who are joining us in the chat,
30
00:02:38.100 --> 00:02:39.480
from all around the world.
31
00:02:39.860 --> 00:02:43.000
It's pretty cool to all come together every Bitcoin Tuesday.
32
00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:51.785
And I always like to start it out with a quick introduction from each of our guests. So, Diverter, why don't you start and just introduce yourself quickly to the freaks?
33
00:02:54.325 --> 00:02:56.025
34
00:02:56.770 --> 00:02:57.270
Diverter,
35
00:02:58.210 --> 00:03:03.750
a k a diverter. No k y c. No k y c. Only however you wanna put that on the end.
36
00:03:05.215 --> 00:03:06.595
Just interested in
37
00:03:06.974 --> 00:03:07.474
in
38
00:03:09.135 --> 00:03:09.635
Bitcoin,
39
00:03:10.174 --> 00:03:11.315
censorship resistance,
40
00:03:12.330 --> 00:03:14.030
what I really interested in. So
41
00:03:15.610 --> 00:03:16.670
whatever tool
42
00:03:18.090 --> 00:03:18.590
use,
43
00:03:19.855 --> 00:03:20.754
be able to communicate
44
00:03:21.055 --> 00:03:22.915
people without having to ask permission,
45
00:03:24.015 --> 00:03:25.715
that's what gives my eye. So
46
00:03:26.015 --> 00:03:27.795
naturally, I'm, I'm big
47
00:03:28.260 --> 00:03:28.760
in
48
00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:29.780
the
49
00:03:30.500 --> 00:03:32.920
that without having to ask a whole lot of permission.
50
00:03:33.220 --> 00:03:40.465
I'd like to be able to talk about it without having to, ask a whole lot of permission and without having to let everybody else know what I'm talking about.
51
00:03:40.765 --> 00:03:41.265
So
52
00:03:41.805 --> 00:03:43.970
fit right in in this graph. Glad to be here.
53
00:03:47.890 --> 00:03:48.870
54
00:03:49.170 --> 00:03:50.230
What's up, Max?
55
00:03:50.690 --> 00:03:52.390
56
00:03:53.265 --> 00:03:53.825
Yeah. So,
57
00:03:54.225 --> 00:03:55.205
I'm Max Sunhill.
58
00:03:55.985 --> 00:03:56.725
I've been,
59
00:03:57.505 --> 00:04:03.870
well, like, into Bitcoin, I suppose, for about kind of 5 years. I can't even remember when I first, started chatting with Matt,
60
00:04:04.330 --> 00:04:07.050
but certainly kind of in the early days. And I think,
61
00:04:07.530 --> 00:04:08.569
for me, anyway, the,
62
00:04:09.265 --> 00:04:15.364
certainly the chat apps and the encrypted chat apps have a lot of overlap with Bitcoin. It's all data at the end of the day and all free text.
63
00:04:15.745 --> 00:04:18.900
So I think the kind of way we use this information and these applications
64
00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.180
should be looked on as pretty similarly to the way we,
65
00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:23.700
we use BTC.
66
00:04:24.884 --> 00:04:26.824
And so just a bit of background about me,
67
00:04:27.444 --> 00:04:32.985
or I've been in Singapore, like, over 10 years now. As you can pretty tell from the accent, I'm from the UK.
68
00:04:35.150 --> 00:04:42.530
So, and Bitcoin is is is is and probably always will be for me, always on the Harvey side. But no interest in working in the industry or anything.
69
00:04:43.315 --> 00:04:49.175
But, like the kind of I'm sure a number of you here, I've got a little side gig, on the side that I do to
70
00:04:49.555 --> 00:04:51.014
to earn some bits and BTC,
71
00:04:51.315 --> 00:04:54.990
which is always kinda fun to do. And so, since doing that, it's,
72
00:04:55.789 --> 00:05:00.690
I've certainly had a lot more kind of questions from customers, etcetera, on using these type of apps.
73
00:05:01.175 --> 00:05:07.435
As everyone is, obviously increasingly more concerned about their privacy. And also, I think most of all, censorship resistance,
74
00:05:08.780 --> 00:05:11.680
being able to kinda say what they want, whenever they can.
75
00:05:12.940 --> 00:05:14.080
76
00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:17.599
the in-depth intros over there.
77
00:05:18.685 --> 00:05:19.185
Particularly
78
00:05:19.645 --> 00:05:23.485
interested in talking about Singapore. I didn't know if we were gonna be able to bring that up this,
79
00:05:24.525 --> 00:05:26.945
this discussion, so we will definitely get back to that.
80
00:05:27.289 --> 00:05:29.789
To the freaks listening on the podcast feed,
81
00:05:30.889 --> 00:05:32.030
to the freaks listening
82
00:05:32.490 --> 00:05:37.475
on on all the different mediums, You can see the different ways that you can listen at citadel dispatch.com.
83
00:05:38.175 --> 00:05:51.055
The archives go up on Keybase and Telegram afterwards. They get syndicated out to our podcast feeds, both the TFTC tales from the crypt feed and the Citadel dispatch dedicated feed. So you can check it out on all those all those methods.
84
00:05:51.915 --> 00:05:55.535
If they try and deplatform us, they're gonna have to deplatform us from all of those.
85
00:05:55.835 --> 00:05:58.335
Okay. The current block height is 666
86
00:05:59.030 --> 00:06:01.770
809. The current price is 2,731
87
00:06:02.949 --> 00:06:03.449
sats,
88
00:06:04.389 --> 00:06:06.250
so slightly up from last week.
89
00:06:07.415 --> 00:06:10.475
For the freaks joining us by video on the livestream,
90
00:06:11.415 --> 00:06:17.920
I'm trying something new on the price display this time. On the top, we have the evil empire. We have Coinbase Pro,
91
00:06:18.620 --> 00:06:23.520
their live price sticker. And then underneath, we have the real price. We have the bisque price,
92
00:06:24.525 --> 00:06:29.265
and you can see just the volume differences between the compliance bro exchange on the top
93
00:06:29.645 --> 00:06:33.185
and, bisque underneath. I thought it was kind of a cool, discrepancy.
94
00:06:33.710 --> 00:06:39.569
Just a a couple of minutes ago, right before we started, Bisk was trading out about 38,000, a little bit above it,
95
00:06:40.349 --> 00:06:50.535
which is just a cool I just think that's a cool concept that people don't realize. Also, to the freaks tuning in through the podcast feed, the intro video was Christine Lagarde from the
96
00:06:50.849 --> 00:06:52.150
European Central Bank,
97
00:06:52.610 --> 00:06:53.349
the ECB.
98
00:06:54.689 --> 00:06:56.150
Just talking shit about Bitcoin.
99
00:06:56.689 --> 00:06:59.754
But while she did it, she mentioned something. She mentioned
100
00:07:00.055 --> 00:07:03.035
that we that they need a global response.
101
00:07:04.375 --> 00:07:17.955
They need a global response if they wanna stop Bitcoin because if there is an escape she said the words escape. If there's an escape, someone will use it. And I think that doesn't only apply to Bitcoin. I think that also implies to encryption and privacy software.
102
00:07:18.815 --> 00:07:22.355
So I thought that's, you know, as good a place as ever to start.
103
00:07:23.630 --> 00:07:31.570
You know, to you guys, like, why is privacy so important? Why is free open source software so important? And I I guess we'll start with Max this time.
104
00:07:34.535 --> 00:07:36.155
105
00:07:36.935 --> 00:07:39.335
I mean, well, it comes right back to the beginning. Like,
106
00:07:39.975 --> 00:07:42.395
even in my end my introduction with,
107
00:07:43.460 --> 00:07:46.040
with with Bitcoin even didn't start from
108
00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:47.800
an Austrian perspective.
109
00:07:49.060 --> 00:07:51.479
It didn't even really start from a technical perspective.
110
00:07:51.805 --> 00:07:52.705
It was actually,
111
00:07:53.164 --> 00:07:55.185
kinda hearing stuff about Edward Snowden
112
00:07:55.725 --> 00:07:59.745
and getting more involved there. And I think politically, I went from
113
00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:02.920
right of center to kinda far more libertarian
114
00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:04.840
and then started realizing
115
00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:08.280
quite what the state was doing, in terms of censorship,
116
00:08:08.755 --> 00:08:13.015
quite what it had in terms of relationships, the backdoors in popular software.
117
00:08:13.635 --> 00:08:14.115
And,
118
00:08:15.075 --> 00:08:17.175
you know, it doesn't take much to realize
119
00:08:17.590 --> 00:08:18.810
quite what that means
120
00:08:19.350 --> 00:08:22.490
for for, yeah, for tyranny and for for unchecked power.
121
00:08:23.110 --> 00:08:27.255
So I think it's a combination of that plus the fact that ultimately
122
00:08:27.875 --> 00:08:33.255
you can't stop the signal as they say. You know, really, it is just free text. It can't be stopped.
123
00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.940
I think, you know, ultimately, it's,
124
00:08:36.800 --> 00:08:38.100
it's something I wanna do.
125
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Really, I have
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I don't really wish upon anyone else to deal with my free speech so much. I just wanna be left alone to be able to say what I want. And that's always been fundamental to how I feel like you know? So
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really, you know,
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politically for me, it's just, well, I want to, and I I'm not gonna cause anyone any harm by saying anything. Yeah. The offense is taken. It's not given.
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And for me, it's just very, it's very core and it's something I won't settle on or deal with. I will say what I want when I want.
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And, that's that's just kind of fundamental,
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to me to do.
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As for the open source kind of aspect as well, I mean, yeah, it's just I think, obviously, it's critical from a,
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trust perspective.
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You know, we
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I think
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I suppose I don't know so much for you, Matt, but, you know,
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you've always been pretty transparent on, mistakes that you've made with Bitcoin and
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problems you've had, but I can honestly say this. In the last 5 years, I've been using Bitcoin. Anything that could go wrong did go wrong.
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And
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when you are looking at, you know, open source software particularly, it's,
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it's a space that's incredibly you know, it's a lot of threats. You pretty much we can't think of anywhere that there aren't as many threats.
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So
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you have to think
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in terms of that
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in that scenario.
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And, you know, if there is an exploit, it could be taken advantage of largely
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and you will suffer for it. So for me, you know, that that transparency
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is is always important where you possibly get it. And certainly for kind of the use with Bitcoin apps, it's often often a,
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a deal breaker for me. And for a lot of the software I use for such as messengers, I am sending specific use cases, it'd be a deal breaker for me as well.
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I was waiting to see if Diverter was gonna say something. But,
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before before I get to him,
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I 100%
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agree that in the world of Bitcoin is a is a world of personal responsibility,
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that that goes, I think, hand in hand with the world of privacy. If you're trying to be privacy focused,
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this world defaults to custodial relationships, whether that's privacy, whether that's Bitcoin, whether that's any kind of,
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aspect of our lives where you basically
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are trusting someone, relying on someone else,
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for that responsibility.
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And as such,
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we are we've gotten coddled, and we're not used to a personal responsibility situation. But in a situation where we have to practice personal responsibility,
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we are ultimately going to make mistakes. We're gonna make a lot of them. And the important thing is to stay humble and to learn from them,
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rather than letting them, you know, completely take us down. But,
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it it's it's definitely it's it's definitely a minefield out there for for Bitcoin users.
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That's just in general. You know? I mean, privacy
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in general is is is a minefield. Like you said, the the
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default is none.
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Deal and so often left with, the illusion of a choice. Well, we don't actually have a choice,
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but
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state and field down all.
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And here, you can either pick this or you can pick that, but both of them, you're
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screwed either way. They still leave you with this illusion of a choice,
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when it's it's 2 sides of the same coin.
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So privacy,
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you know, being able to selectively
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reveal yourself, and you get to choose
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who knows what about you and who can read what you said.
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You get to choose who you can transact with and who you can't transact with based off of your personal,
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moral standards.
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Since we've gotten in this area where so many people
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are so convinced that that
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they're right,
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I'm not smart enough
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to,
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to think that I am a 100% right on everything and that I know best for everyone.
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I happen to believe everybody.
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Okay. To choose for their self,
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what's best for them
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and the people that, you know, are in their lives. So
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I have no interest in forcing,
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my
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beliefs and and things on the work.
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So many times, we're in a situation now where that is exactly what's happening. It's all being forced upon us, and we download these apps and there are permissions and things that people are not understanding,
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just clicking through because they wanna use Facebook Messenger,
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that they're giving away all their private data and that, you know, it's gonna be mined and sold to these companies and they're gonna start getting ads because they said something
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offhand in their life.
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So, you know, privacy is is of the utmost importance, and and I I think we're just now starting to get an idea
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or people are just now getting started to get an idea of how important
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that is and how little we have of it.
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It's very interesting, this world we find ourselves in, if you are focused on privacy and sovereignty,
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because we have a lot of options at our disposal,
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and each option has different trade offs. There's a ton of nuance here.
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And and, you know, the funny thing is, like like, right now in the comments, we have we have Partis,
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BTC pins is talking to such salad,
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and they're talking about tails
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versus,
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cubes.
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And they're they're deciding, like, which one's better, you know, in the comments. And everyone has an opinion on it, and there's no obvious answer in either direction because each one has different trade off balances. But at the same time, I'm sure we have freaks listening right now who have an Amazon listening device, you know, an Alexa,
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you know, assistant
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sitting in their in their apartment right across from them right now that they can go over and unplug and make tangible privacy benefit. Right? So there's this whole scale and and and to try and hit everyone at the same time,
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is is a is a hard task. But I think I think, ultimately,
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if the path we're going down here requires personal responsibility,
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we need to basically teach people how to fish. You can't just tell them, you know, eat this shit. They have to
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did they they have to know what they're doing. They have to know what their threat model is. Right?
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go to the Go ahead, Mac.
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I just gotta say, like, I think still this, and it's always worth reiterating this little bit of a confusion between privacy and anonymity.
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And,
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you know, people do still get confused why you'd need encryption in an app.
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And
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people still get surprised why, you know, you might be,
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against,
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giving a passport to a third party, especially if it's regulated,
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you know, because they should be able to be trusted, that kind of attitude.
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You know,
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because, you know, you know, what you have to hide and all that. I think,
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making that point more, I think, you know, we do need a bit of a cultural change.
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I think particularly in the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years,
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with kind of growth platforms like Facebook and all that,
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we have been kind of somewhat conned,
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culturally into
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being, you know, having a new normal defined,
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then as to what's acceptable in terms of, personal information that needs to be shared and all that. I mean, just the other day, I saw a video,
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someone coming off Facebook, and there's, like, a kinda comedy video when they go around and physically like people's pictures in the office and,
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hand over their, you know, their their passport to someone underneath a cubicle and, you know,
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you know, just kinda lurk over people's other comments and all that. And I think, you know, if you take a step back and look at kind of what Facebook is today
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and how that actually applies to real life, it is actually pretty weird.
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And, actually, even something like Twitter is quite weird as well. I mean, if you were to take Twitter into that and put it into real life,
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you're kinda like walking around
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looking for arguments to get yourself involved in and poke the bear with in a lot of cases
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or stand there in a public square and shouting. That's not what people are kinda comfortable doing. Just shouting the lowest common denominator.
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Yes.
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Completely confidently
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just shouting it out, hoping people walk by and tap you on the face or something.
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in meet space necessarily, and it leads people to kind of, you know, slightly different behavior. And then they're unable to then necessarily separate what they do online with,
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you know, what they do in these space, but then maybe forget to associate their real ID with it, that kind of thing. So I think, you know,
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things have redefined in the last few years.
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I think the other thing I'd just say is kind of what I leave you the point with. I mean, you know, you, on that tweet, you put a large grid
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with all the different messengers and all the kind of, you know, information shared. And I think just to flash back on the screen earlier, there was a comparison, right, this one as well with all the, you know, different features.
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These things can be pretty intimidating for people and can look,
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you know, you know, some people won't necessarily know what all the meanings are behind everything as well.
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I would say that despite, you know, the need to be cryptographic expert in some cases to verify some of this, at the end of the day, I think a lot of you a lot of this can be done with just gut feeling.
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You know, asking me a question, you know, who am I actually messaging? Who's actually seeing this data? And you don't need to be it's gonna be proficient to necessarily ask those questions
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And I say this a lot on on our other show, Robert Hole Recap, is I don't want people to be overwhelmed. You can make incremental improvements.
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Absolutely. Said, if you have if you have an Amazon Alexa, unplug the Amazon Alexa. If you're sending text messages,
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use an encrypted messenger. Now is it gonna be the best encrypted messenger?
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Maybe not, you know, but it's a step up in in the right direction, and then you can improve from there.
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One of the things I like about this show is I think not enough people focus on actionable discussion,
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things that that the freaks can actually,
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use and and tangibly hold.
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Yeah. There's a lot of philosophical filler out there, and and I just really want to dig right in.
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So, I mean, the 3 of us were chilling. I mean, you're you're in Singapore, Max, so it's it's your morning, but, you know, it's like happy hour. We're meeting up with the boys.
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We we mentioned,
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Signal had their best week ever in the history of Signal.
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They had they went from, like, 10,000,000 users to, like, 50,000,000 users because of WhatsApp's,
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privacy policy change. And it's pretty funny, like, these things, like, did anyone really think Facebook took privacy,
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you know, seriously? No. But, like, one day, like, you have a a a mass movement happened because
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of of some privacy policy change. And and I think as privacy advocates, it's important that we just,
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take advantage of of of of every mass movement we have.
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This is how people learn. They get burned, they wake up, and then they go seek out knowledge. They go seek out improvement.
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So with that said, Diverter,
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is signal secure? Should people be using it?
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Yes. Signal should be, used. Now is signal secure? I mean, look. We can we can break down all types of,
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what metadata leaks and and all that stuff. At the end of the day,
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is signal more secure messenger
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than SMS?
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Yes.
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Hands down. Objection just yes. Period.
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So a lot of this, which I'm learning
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a lot as I go along too is, you know, more regional than what I thought.
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So SMS, for example, you know, that's basically that's that's your standard communication in the United States. You know, everything
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all my text, I I text SMS SMS.
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So
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replace
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your default SMS messenger on your phone with a with a single click.
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I mean, that's that's leaps and bounds
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head of everything. As I've said before,
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it doesn't really how secure your messenger is if nobody else that you talk to uses it. Who cares?
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So, you know, like you said, you've got the WhatsApp policy change, and then you get a Elon Musk tweet,
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people to use signal,
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and boom, people sign up. You know? Meanwhile,
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people that have been over here screaming in the corner for to use signal for 3 years,
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you know, nobody's listening, and then one Eli tweet sends them. But
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exactly what
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said you gotta take times right now when people are starting to to look up and say, well, wait. Facebook is collecting way too much. Why am I giving them all this stuff?
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And they they see a celebrity tweeting out. They join on. They realize it's really easy. Now when I when I load in, I I pop in and it gives me a little pop up message. It says, do you wanna replace your default SMS? Yes. Yes. I do.
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Boom. Now you're using an encrypted messenger with your mom, your dad, your, you know, your daughter, your son, your cousin, whoever,
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not just your Bitcoin bros.
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That's the big difference to me, and why I I really like signal a lot.
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might not be as aware of this as Americans, but as Diverter said in America,
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we have a problem. We use SMS still. I I don't in most places of the world, they don't.
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SMS is basically a postcard. When you send it, every third party in the middle of that transact of that message getting sent is seeing it. They they see it completely.
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On iPhone,
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American iPhone users,
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their Imessage defaults to encryption, and we can get into the nuances there.
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You know, it's it's there's plenty of trade offs with Imessage, and we will get into the nuances.
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But for Android users, they don't have something like that. And now signal comes along, they can use as their default messaging app. IPhone users still are using it as a separate messaging app, but together they they can they can, communicate.
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One one thing I wanna unpack there is is Elon's tweet kind of sent the ball rolling. Right? And we were talking about earlier,
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like explaining trade offs to users and and making them under trying to help them understand why they need this and where to where their perspective should be. What
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there's still a benefit there, right, from from Elon just saying use signal, just, like, eat this fish. You know? Like, I I think we need that too. Right? Am I am I wrong here?
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You know, I I who expects Elon? Elon's not gonna get on Twitter and say, no. Here's the reason you should do this. He's gonna he's gonna pop in and say, hey. Like you said, eat this fish, man. It's good. And he's going on the back of this list. Now
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rest of us are Elon's a mess. What you know, hey. Everybody's got a role to play. My role to play is not I'm not Elon. I can't just hop on. I don't have that type of so I can't hop on and say, hey, man. It should be using Jamie or Briar or whatever
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obscure but what I can do is kinda hang around. I can hang around in the comments. I can hang around on
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Telegram, and I keep the cops in
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says, hey. I saw I saw that Elon Musk signal. Why? Boom. Now here's where you here's your end. So, yes, I I a 100% agree. Take take advantage of all those.
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hit us with your opinion.
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I've got, just 6 reservations with Singapore.
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So, yeah. So first off, though, I said, yes. It's secure. And, definitely, yes. It's an improvement over
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not only people using SMS, but also I think it's a huge improvement over people using WhatsApp,
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or Imessage just because the variety of issues there.
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But a few things to kinda just point out.
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And so one, when people talk about signal, they typically think of the phone app, and I think that that is very secure. And I think it's,
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it sits in a good place,
334
00:25:41.304 --> 00:25:43.245
on the at the OS level typically,
335
00:25:43.625 --> 00:25:45.005
and it makes it secure.
336
00:25:45.865 --> 00:25:52.360
I don't have the same kind of faith in the desktop app, and I think I believe well, there definitely been historical security issues,
337
00:25:52.900 --> 00:25:54.260
with the desktop app,
338
00:25:54.580 --> 00:25:58.040
you know, with kind of exploits with, extracting text,
339
00:25:58.725 --> 00:26:02.345
out of the out of the desktop app when it was paired to the mobile.
340
00:26:02.965 --> 00:26:05.545
So, I think you kind of increase your
341
00:26:05.910 --> 00:26:07.130
your risk somewhat,
342
00:26:07.590 --> 00:26:09.530
by taking the convenience there.
343
00:26:10.310 --> 00:26:12.890
My other kind of issue a bit with signal
344
00:26:13.534 --> 00:26:15.534
is the fact that it's SMS based.
345
00:26:16.095 --> 00:26:21.635
So I think that provide you know, gives you a couple of challenges there. One is the the identity aspect.
346
00:26:22.990 --> 00:26:44.650
Just the fact that you very much typically trust, just for, you know, the general user, you trust someone that you already have their number stored with, As we know, like, SIM hijacking, but also just the fact that, you know, maybe someone that you haven't spoken to for a while has let their their number expire. Certainly in Asia and Singapore, you know, the phone numbers get recycled pretty quickly.
347
00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:49.554
So it's not unusual for me to look through my my address, but the contact find out of the link
348
00:26:49.934 --> 00:26:51.955
and see some pretty, you know, startling,
349
00:26:52.575 --> 00:26:53.715
profile pic changes.
350
00:26:54.414 --> 00:26:57.290
But often for most people, they wouldn't necessarily notice,
351
00:26:57.830 --> 00:26:59.750
that a contact would change even with,
352
00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:01.850
you know,
353
00:27:02.310 --> 00:27:10.255
warnings over key pairs changing and all that. They wouldn't necessarily understand the cryptograph is behind that and just very fabulous based on SS SMS identity
354
00:27:10.715 --> 00:27:11.535
is an issue.
355
00:27:12.270 --> 00:27:17.250
So I think that's kind of one other issue, and that's not to say that it's it's a bad thing. It's just it's a trade off.
356
00:27:18.110 --> 00:27:29.980
The other thing is the fact that the 2 FA, I don't think many people know to set it. And I'm not talking about necessarily the PIN, that you agree to get in, but, you know, just the fact that someone does have your number, being able to,
357
00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:34.480
ensure that anyone does sim jack you, that they don't actually, you know,
358
00:27:34.815 --> 00:27:36.595
take the whole account away from you.
359
00:27:37.054 --> 00:27:40.835
And then, like, lastly, and this is particularly for Android users,
360
00:27:42.174 --> 00:27:43.235
yes, the
361
00:27:43.590 --> 00:27:48.170
the app the phone app is secure, but and I think I should saw this in the comments on Twitter as well.
362
00:27:48.550 --> 00:27:54.195
But I have huge concerns with, the keyboards on Android, and particularly Google Keyboard. And,
363
00:27:55.455 --> 00:28:02.690
I've had very kind of, you know, peep yeah. What we consider noise, people that are interested in privacy and security to the same level,
364
00:28:03.310 --> 00:28:04.690
complain to me directly.
365
00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:09.650
How come I get adverts on something I chatted with someone over a secure messenger?
366
00:28:11.115 --> 00:28:18.255
And how is someone able to get relevant ads? And the only thing I can possibly think of is is that one of the parties are using Android keyboard,
367
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:27.220
information is going back to Google servers. So before you even get the information encrypted, before it actually travels through the app, you're already giving everything out clear text
368
00:28:27.825 --> 00:28:30.565
and assigned to probably an IP address and a MAC address,
369
00:28:31.345 --> 00:28:33.845
and, you know, baked into your digital profile.
370
00:28:34.465 --> 00:28:40.400
So that along with your general endpoint security means that, yes, signal is secure, but you need to think about
371
00:28:40.860 --> 00:28:50.755
what OS you're using on, what kind of device you're using on, and, obviously, who you're communicating with, both for verifying and for their own technically and technical hygiene practices.
372
00:28:53.810 --> 00:28:59.350
373
00:28:59.995 --> 00:29:00.895
Like, obviously,
374
00:29:01.355 --> 00:29:03.775
asking the question, is signal secure,
375
00:29:04.555 --> 00:29:06.015
was meant to be provocative,
376
00:29:06.795 --> 00:29:07.855
because that
377
00:29:08.395 --> 00:29:09.910
that that question,
378
00:29:10.289 --> 00:29:13.350
lacks 0 lacks all nuance whatsoever,
379
00:29:14.450 --> 00:29:17.215
and and can't actually have an absolute answer.
380
00:29:17.695 --> 00:29:19.554
All these things do have trade offs.
381
00:29:20.335 --> 00:29:23.794
The phone number question is is a very interesting one.
382
00:29:25.350 --> 00:29:25.850
The
383
00:29:26.230 --> 00:29:28.490
I mean, I think that comes from America,
384
00:29:29.029 --> 00:29:30.570
just the fact that
385
00:29:30.870 --> 00:29:37.424
we're so used to I mean, I guess I mean, you're Singapore. You're an expat from Britain. You're used to using phone numbers as identifier too.
386
00:29:37.725 --> 00:29:44.309
Yeah. It plugs into that that network effect, that network graph that already exists with WhatsApp and SMS and Imessage.
387
00:29:45.809 --> 00:29:47.830
But, obviously, it has major issues,
388
00:29:48.245 --> 00:29:52.505
in terms of privacy. I mean, you mentioned that your phone book never changes, that you keep that database.
389
00:29:52.805 --> 00:29:58.090
I mean, that means that not only are you trusting every single corporation that has interacted with your phone number,
390
00:29:58.550 --> 00:30:00.010
you're also trusting your friends
391
00:30:00.310 --> 00:30:05.530
that you've ever met ever and gave them your phone number that they haven't, you know, leaked it themselves.
392
00:30:06.005 --> 00:30:16.179
393
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.100
and, it would essentially import your entire contact list.
394
00:30:20.639 --> 00:30:25.625
And, the idea was that it was a smart app for people that couldn't manage their contacts.
395
00:30:26.085 --> 00:30:27.304
So it would essentially
396
00:30:27.764 --> 00:30:29.544
grab all your contact list,
397
00:30:29.845 --> 00:30:32.904
cross reference to everyone else's contact list that they were grabbing,
398
00:30:33.309 --> 00:30:44.885
and then provide you, like, with a a suggested contact name. So the kind of the idea was is to provide, you know, people that were absolute disasters with personal, you know, management of contacts,
399
00:30:45.345 --> 00:31:01.004
an idea who was calling them. And people were signing up with these apps. I think they possibly did get banned from the from the from the various app stores or whatever, but they hoovered up all sorts of contact data. So, of course, like, when you give out your phone number to your friends, which is completely natural thing to do,
400
00:31:01.625 --> 00:31:06.044
you know, the metadata is a complete bitch. You're gonna get that you know, you're gonna get your mates,
401
00:31:06.760 --> 00:31:14.779
give away your phone number to all sorts of other apps and things. I mean, we know that with Telegram that it grabs all your app, all your contacts, and shares amongst everyone.
402
00:31:15.085 --> 00:31:20.385
So it's a real problem, the phone number identity, because we we don't have a, you know, decentralized
403
00:31:20.685 --> 00:31:21.185
identity,
404
00:31:21.805 --> 00:31:24.865
and nothing that's, aside from the email, I suppose,
405
00:31:25.230 --> 00:31:28.050
that pretty much everyone you can guarantee has.
406
00:31:30.190 --> 00:31:37.355
407
00:31:39.095 --> 00:31:43.600
And and we're always gonna be up against that trade off. Right? And signal tries to
408
00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:55.735
deal with it in their own way. They try and make it as approachable as possible while not compromising on privacy, but, ultimately, they they do have to compromise on on privacy elements there. One element is,
409
00:31:56.769 --> 00:31:59.830
is that phone number, which by the way, they say they do not store.
410
00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:03.590
They only are sent a hash of your number,
411
00:32:04.465 --> 00:32:11.524
that we can verify that they only send a hash of the number because it's open source software. This is why open source is important when people say
412
00:32:12.029 --> 00:32:20.850
things are done locally. You need to be able to verify that they're done locally. When Apple says Imessage encrypts locally and they don't have a key, there's no way for us to verify that.
413
00:32:21.965 --> 00:32:24.625
There's some nuance here that if you download it through,
414
00:32:25.965 --> 00:32:39.475
one of the app stores, you know, there's no way to verify the signal that you downloaded is the same as the code that you can build yourself. But if you run Android, technically, you can. But see, there's all these different levels of nuance here. One thing you mentioned
415
00:32:40.095 --> 00:32:40.595
was,
416
00:32:42.335 --> 00:32:47.635
I I guess you called it 2 factor. I think they call it SIM lock where, like, you lock it to your phone number.
417
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:54.820
Yeah. If someone ports your phone number, which Bitcorners know very well, these SIM jackings where they they take your phone number,
418
00:32:55.255 --> 00:33:02.554
they can obviously then start communicating with your signal contacts without without you knowing and without the signal contact realizing.
419
00:33:02.970 --> 00:33:05.390
Now signal has 2 protections in place there.
420
00:33:06.170 --> 00:33:12.030
That attacker does not actually get your messages, which is a big win. They don't get historical messages.
421
00:33:13.185 --> 00:33:17.125
And everyone you communicated with gets a little message that says your key pair changed.
422
00:33:17.425 --> 00:33:18.245
423
00:33:18.945 --> 00:33:22.590
424
00:33:22.970 --> 00:33:25.070
Right? The the user needs to know
425
00:33:25.850 --> 00:33:35.635
what that means when they see the key pair change. Most users see that and they're the last thing they're thinking is, okay, my friend my friend just got hacked and now I'm talking to a hacker. Right?
426
00:33:37.215 --> 00:33:38.195
427
00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:41.211
Yeah. Exactly. Oh, I I
428
00:33:42.184 --> 00:33:44.380
well, actually, I guess I sent
429
00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:45.659
out a toot
430
00:33:46.045 --> 00:33:47.665
the other day because I
431
00:33:48.605 --> 00:33:49.105
was
432
00:33:50.045 --> 00:33:51.405
on, Bitcoin, Anthony.
433
00:33:52.045 --> 00:33:58.360
But, you know, just a couple of things because, you know, we got a lot of new signal users coming in. So, you know, a couple of things that
434
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:05.785
that I think people should be aware of. Max brought up an excellent one, about the keyboard and, you know, the actual OS that you're running on.
435
00:34:06.885 --> 00:34:09.765
That's one of the go in and do in signal is you can,
436
00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:11.800
request an incognito
437
00:34:12.100 --> 00:34:12.600
keyboard.
438
00:34:13.140 --> 00:34:16.280
So you can request that, your keyboard not,
439
00:34:17.140 --> 00:34:23.935
log this stuff. Now does that mean that your keyboard is not gonna be logged in anymore? Not necessarily. No. Do not rely on that.
440
00:34:25.355 --> 00:34:28.600
I would much rather see people switch from using,
441
00:34:29.620 --> 00:34:35.160
like, a g board or a Google board or what just something like, you know, an open board or any soft,
442
00:34:36.015 --> 00:34:40.515
something I've I've gotten quite fond of. Max actually introduced me to, TesterCube,
443
00:34:41.375 --> 00:34:43.234
which has open PGP integrated.
444
00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:48.440
But, you know, things that that's a big deal. It shouldn't be overlooked.
445
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:54.119
The the registration lock for your number, it it definitely shouldn't be overlooked.
446
00:34:54.565 --> 00:34:55.705
My personal opinion,
447
00:34:56.165 --> 00:34:58.025
I think that should be on by default,
448
00:34:59.045 --> 00:35:00.505
which is where, you know,
449
00:35:01.340 --> 00:35:06.080
I kinda run through a few of these apps is what can you default away from the user,
450
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:08.000
and what
451
00:35:08.875 --> 00:35:12.335
can't you do, you know, based off security and convenience
452
00:35:12.635 --> 00:35:15.855
trade offs. It's such a So what do you want by default? I mean,
453
00:35:16.430 --> 00:35:27.775
454
00:35:28.555 --> 00:35:30.494
455
00:35:31.780 --> 00:35:32.280
mode,
456
00:35:33.380 --> 00:35:36.760
the registration, I would love to see both of those default on.
457
00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:39.080
And
458
00:35:40.744 --> 00:35:41.724
I would love
459
00:35:42.265 --> 00:35:43.484
information fed
460
00:35:45.144 --> 00:35:46.285
to the user PIN,
461
00:35:47.144 --> 00:35:59.085
not just putting on, you know, a a a, a what is it? 6 to 8 digit, PIN number that you actually can a good strong alphanumeric pen right there, you know, 25, 30,
462
00:35:59.405 --> 00:36:00.385
random characters
463
00:36:01.165 --> 00:36:12.100
that you can use a really good strong PIN number. That way, if somebody does port your phone number and try to go over and you have registration lock on and they're asked for this PIN, that it's not just, you know,
464
00:36:13.964 --> 00:36:15.664
a a matter of the brute force.
465
00:36:16.285 --> 00:36:23.860
So, you know, yeah, I I I would like to see a little bit more of the defaults on, but I feel like they're pretty close right now to where they need to be.
466
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.340
467
00:36:29.395 --> 00:36:34.615
your your audio broke up a little bit. Were you saying TesterCube? I've used TesterCube before, which is mobile PGP.
468
00:36:35.875 --> 00:36:40.590
TesterCube has a keyboard as well that that has the, like, PGP built into the keyboard?
469
00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:42.270
470
00:36:42.810 --> 00:36:44.010
471
00:36:45.050 --> 00:36:47.869
472
00:36:48.325 --> 00:36:51.145
It really does. Max has actually introduced me to it.
473
00:36:52.005 --> 00:36:52.325
474
00:36:52.805 --> 00:36:58.270
Coinsure has introduced me to TesterCube. TesterCube is one of the easiest way to use PGP. I didn't know about the keyboard.
475
00:36:58.890 --> 00:37:03.310
Just to be clear, all these all these freaks that are that are using Tim Apple's products,
476
00:37:04.494 --> 00:37:06.755
In Android land, we can change our keyboard.
477
00:37:07.295 --> 00:37:07.695
478
00:37:08.335 --> 00:37:12.035
iOS as well. Oh, you can now? Yeah. You can. Yeah. So I have
479
00:37:12.430 --> 00:37:15.329
both iOS and Android and, it works very well.
480
00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:16.109
481
00:37:16.589 --> 00:37:18.349
So just just keep in mind,
482
00:37:18.670 --> 00:37:19.490
though that
483
00:37:20.245 --> 00:37:25.465
that once again, it's the convenience for security and privacy trade off. These keyboards suck in comparison to,
484
00:37:26.965 --> 00:37:29.550
the the the corporate surveillance ones. Yeah.
485
00:37:31.470 --> 00:37:33.410
486
00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:35.950
on just to build on diverse point,
487
00:37:36.430 --> 00:37:40.175
so I kinda got a couple of points to stay on the whole kind of privacy defaults.
488
00:37:41.035 --> 00:37:46.175
Number 1 is probably this is why the is not running a multinational company and making millions
489
00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:53.740
because he's not been thinking of stuff apart from the customer and customer service part of it. And I think the other thing is,
490
00:37:56.415 --> 00:38:01.715
you know, we can be a bit paranoid now, but I think there is reason to believe that the big tech companies,
491
00:38:02.299 --> 00:38:03.359
especially people behind,
492
00:38:03.740 --> 00:38:05.520
Tech Messengers, I, yeah,
493
00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:11.355
I think you'd be foolish to think that this doesn't happen is that they don't get friendly visits,
494
00:38:11.755 --> 00:38:13.674
from law enforcement. And I don't mean anything,
495
00:38:15.595 --> 00:38:16.734
aggressive or
496
00:38:17.529 --> 00:38:20.910
or horrendous threats or anything like that, but I think they're in nuggets.
497
00:38:21.450 --> 00:38:31.185
And I think that that certainly happened with Apple and their iCloud backups. I think there are obviously usability challenges as well. But I think that if you are a
498
00:38:31.805 --> 00:38:34.945
centralized entity and you, managing, like, a messenger
499
00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:37.490
application and you are in a certain jurisdiction,
500
00:38:38.109 --> 00:38:40.450
there's a good chance that you get suggestions
501
00:38:41.069 --> 00:38:43.089
and you get pushed in the same direction,
502
00:38:44.195 --> 00:38:49.255
by by those folk, to maybe not include certain features or not include certain defaults,
503
00:38:50.275 --> 00:38:52.135
to make our enforcement's job easier.
504
00:38:55.460 --> 00:39:02.515
505
00:39:03.295 --> 00:39:04.255
Obviously, if if you
506
00:39:05.455 --> 00:39:11.620
507
00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:21.625
508
00:39:22.725 --> 00:39:25.865
But but, obviously, you know, this is where we get back into,
509
00:39:26.720 --> 00:39:29.940
we have the freaks that have Alexa, and then we have the freaks,
510
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:37.045
that are asking me questions like that. Yes. Your your best option is obviously to run a graphene or or copper headphone.
511
00:39:38.305 --> 00:39:45.125
Though those go insane with the defaults. All their defaults are, you know, privacy first, UX second.
512
00:39:45.750 --> 00:39:47.369
And they do a decent balance,
513
00:39:47.670 --> 00:39:54.490
with that trade off. I think it's a fairly reasonable trade off for the average person to make. You're you're not giving up that much.
514
00:39:55.184 --> 00:39:57.365
Obviously, you're giving up Google services,
515
00:39:57.744 --> 00:39:59.125
because that's the whole point.
516
00:39:59.905 --> 00:40:09.320
But short of that, it's not like you have an unusable phone. Most apps, that you get used to still work and obviously, you have a full fully functioning Chromium browser there,
517
00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:18.565
where you can use, like, pretty much any web app. And all these services have web apps. Like, if you're still attached to Twitter and you wanna use Twitter, for instance, just use the web app, it works.
518
00:40:18.945 --> 00:40:19.445
Absolutely.
519
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:28.140
And and the freaks probably know, but I have a guide for Graphene on on TFTC dot TV on our YouTube channel. I also have it on my Keybase page hosted on Keybase.
520
00:40:29.075 --> 00:40:32.214
So I I wanna let let's jump into Imessage
521
00:40:32.595 --> 00:40:34.214
since I think you brought it up,
522
00:40:34.755 --> 00:40:38.170
with them getting pressured on the cloud backups. I mean, I I think,
523
00:40:39.130 --> 00:40:41.069
an important thing people say to me
524
00:40:44.329 --> 00:40:45.470
shout out to Elmo.
525
00:40:45.849 --> 00:40:47.630
People people say to me,
526
00:40:48.185 --> 00:40:48.685
that,
527
00:40:51.545 --> 00:40:56.525
you know, why why are you so hard on these companies and Bitcoin about going against KYC?
528
00:40:57.350 --> 00:41:00.170
Why are you so hard on on on companies like Apple,
529
00:41:00.630 --> 00:41:01.770
eroding our privacy?
530
00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:04.010
Companies like Google eroding our privacy.
531
00:41:04.855 --> 00:41:09.355
And I'm realistic. Like, I know that regulations are forcing them to. I know that we have,
532
00:41:10.135 --> 00:41:12.795
you know, the Snowden the Snowden, releases
533
00:41:13.095 --> 00:41:15.530
showed us that that companies are being,
534
00:41:16.490 --> 00:41:21.230
forced to do things behind closed doors that we we're not even made aware of. Yeah.
535
00:41:22.194 --> 00:41:42.285
But, you know, that's fine, and they're gonna, you know, they're gonna do them, and and and it's important for us to do us and assume and assume the correct assumptions. And the assumption should be that all of these guys are getting pressured and that all of these guys are gonna bend the knee, and you have to work out from there. If they don't bend the knee, if they don't compromise you and they don't, you know,
536
00:41:42.665 --> 00:41:47.325
go behind your back, then consider that a win, but you have to assume that they're going to. So
537
00:41:47.640 --> 00:41:51.260
so what what what what is our concern here with Imessage?
538
00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:56.125
You know, Max, you mentioned it first. You know, why why don't you just dive right in here?
539
00:41:56.445 --> 00:41:59.345
540
00:41:59.965 --> 00:42:06.800
actually, compared to the rest of the Icloud ecosystem. So, I actually to be honest, I try to avoid it despite having used iOS,
541
00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:18.505
before going Android for about 10 years, and I had you know, I use macOS as my personal computer mostly. So I'm kinda quite well baked into the system, but I actually just avoid it mostly because I don't like the,
542
00:42:19.785 --> 00:42:21.550
I don't like the closed garden aspect.
543
00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:25.410
So there's only literally, like, one person I regularly contact,
544
00:42:25.950 --> 00:42:26.610
on Imessage.
545
00:42:28.110 --> 00:42:28.610
But
546
00:42:29.315 --> 00:42:31.734
but I think so from my understanding,
547
00:42:32.115 --> 00:42:35.494
again, I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that there's a private key,
548
00:42:36.115 --> 00:42:37.234
created and stored in the
549
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:39.480
on a device key chain.
550
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:40.460
So,
551
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:54.345
I actually can't remember now kind of quite what the issue is. But the reality is is, like, I've actually got so little interest in even looking at what security model is we have behind Imessage because, 1, everything's so baked into Icloud. 2, it's all closed source anyway.
552
00:42:54.940 --> 00:42:58.560
And 3, you know, you you're on a closed source operating system
553
00:42:58.940 --> 00:43:08.345
and have the account base. So even if there were a bunch of assurances is that the, you know, that the the messages could only be decrypted locally, I wouldn't trust it.
554
00:43:09.365 --> 00:43:11.365
And I think kind of we know for sure, like,
555
00:43:12.160 --> 00:43:18.740
there was a I think it's probably a couple years ago now, but there was a terrorist incident for the first time that that Apple really got into
556
00:43:19.175 --> 00:43:20.795
a bit of a showdown with the FBI.
557
00:43:21.335 --> 00:43:23.975
We we know now that almost immediately the,
558
00:43:24.375 --> 00:43:35.230
Apple was subpoenaed. And I think the feds pretty much had everything they wanted from the the last, iCloud backup. They went for the phone. They still went for the president. They still went for the it was the San Bernardino.
559
00:43:37.275 --> 00:43:46.350
Yeah. They still won America. Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, you could also I mean, again, you can be a bit paranoid, but were they using that to pretend they were going for the president
560
00:43:46.650 --> 00:43:49.630
and making you know, if you negotiate with someone, right,
561
00:43:50.970 --> 00:43:56.825
you would ask for more than you can get. And then you if you were to walk back, you could then look as reasonable.
562
00:43:57.285 --> 00:44:01.545
And maybe all that was a show to kind of hide quite how much they were going for,
563
00:44:02.165 --> 00:44:03.830
what they can get at the cloud
564
00:44:04.290 --> 00:44:04.850
level. And,
565
00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:08.950
you know, I think it's I think it's disappointing how much people,
566
00:44:09.410 --> 00:44:14.964
especially in the infosec and the cryptography space, have really heavily chilled messengers that are,
567
00:44:16.065 --> 00:44:20.484
and companies like Google and Apple because they're reputable and they've got decent
568
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:26.819
traffic security. But, you know, like, the default is really put your data there. The two main issues,
569
00:44:27.279 --> 00:44:29.299
570
00:44:30.625 --> 00:44:31.125
Imessage
571
00:44:31.905 --> 00:44:35.285
is that they're not they're that they're closed source, so we can't verify.
572
00:44:35.745 --> 00:44:36.245
Yeah.
573
00:44:37.265 --> 00:44:43.210
We can't verify what's happening there, and they both default to cloud backups that are unencrypted.
574
00:44:44.070 --> 00:44:47.050
And there's no reasonable reason to do that.
575
00:44:47.625 --> 00:44:58.470
Apple will say to you that the reason they do it is because they don't want people to lose their messages if they inevitably lose their password because people do lose their passwords. But, I mean, it's just their messages. Like, I don't think,
576
00:45:00.130 --> 00:45:17.770
like, I I I I you should at least, you know, give you I it's a bullshit reason. The real reason is they want a back door. They want an easily accessible back door. It's almost even easier than having the phone back door because it'll it's even the data is sitting on their servers, so you can destroy your phone and they still have all the data,
577
00:45:18.550 --> 00:45:20.730
ready for a subpoena to hand that over.
578
00:45:21.270 --> 00:45:22.970
And it's the same deal with WhatsApp.
579
00:45:23.725 --> 00:45:30.465
And then and then Imessage has one other issue is that the the the type of encryption they use is, like, bare minimum.
580
00:45:31.160 --> 00:45:35.500
And there's been some questions of of why they don't use a more hardened, algo there.
581
00:45:36.359 --> 00:45:49.790
But, I mean, I think that's probably neither here nor there. I I don't think they're trying to undermine the algo when they just have everything in plain text sitting on their cloud service by default. Agree. One thing I would say, though, on the on the it's just their messages.
582
00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:51.230
583
00:45:51.530 --> 00:45:55.790
I think you still need to factor in what what regular people do with their messages.
584
00:45:56.615 --> 00:45:57.115
And
585
00:45:57.495 --> 00:46:05.835
there are people like, there's a lot of users that get pretty sentimental about their messages. And when you're looking at something like Icloud or for that reason, any other
586
00:46:06.600 --> 00:46:09.180
cloud storage system like a kind of the Google Suite
587
00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:11.020
is is that
588
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:29.580
people are completely giving themselves over to those corporations. So they're storing you know, they'll have a, you know, a new baby and then they you know, that first couple of year where they're nonstop taking pictures will all be sitting on servers. And these people would be absolutely devastated if they lose their their single device and they can't get access to those messages.
589
00:46:30.414 --> 00:46:35.154
590
00:46:35.454 --> 00:46:38.914
into their face analysis software than potentially lose the photo.
591
00:46:39.310 --> 00:46:39.810
Correct.
592
00:46:40.350 --> 00:46:42.050
593
00:46:42.910 --> 00:46:46.290
594
00:46:47.815 --> 00:46:52.555
595
00:46:53.734 --> 00:46:54.234
iOS
596
00:46:55.790 --> 00:46:57.090
questions and services,
597
00:46:57.630 --> 00:46:59.070
Android ads, my
598
00:47:00.830 --> 00:47:05.175
so yeah. No. I'll just sit back and listen. One thing I will say, I I wanted, on the,
599
00:47:05.875 --> 00:47:08.455
actual, like, subpoenas and stuff, that's one thing
600
00:47:08.915 --> 00:47:10.695
about signal, what we have
601
00:47:11.450 --> 00:47:17.390
seen on signal, you know, when they talk about what they keep, what they don't keep, what they're what they turn over and what they're not.
602
00:47:18.089 --> 00:47:22.465
One of the good things about signal is we we actually have evidence of that. I mean, it happened,
603
00:47:24.525 --> 00:47:30.250
granted it was a few years back. You can see this on their sites, couple other places, but they were subpoenaed,
604
00:47:30.869 --> 00:47:31.690
for information,
605
00:47:32.950 --> 00:47:34.490
for 2 phone numbers.
606
00:47:34.950 --> 00:47:36.170
One of the phone numbers
607
00:47:36.555 --> 00:47:38.735
was a signal phone number. The other one wasn't.
608
00:47:40.715 --> 00:47:41.215
Obviously,
609
00:47:41.515 --> 00:47:43.535
they couldn't really give a a signal number.
610
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:45.820
The one that was what they handed over,
611
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:46.780
was
612
00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:48.120
the date,
613
00:47:48.520 --> 00:47:50.140
that the account was created
614
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:56.045
and the the the last time that that account had hooked up to the signal servers.
615
00:47:56.505 --> 00:47:57.405
And that was it.
616
00:47:59.010 --> 00:48:03.330
So, you know, we we can see that when they're asked to turn over what they
617
00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:08.275
that's when your question comes, you know, what do they what do they,
618
00:48:08.655 --> 00:48:10.275
harvest from you by default?
619
00:48:11.455 --> 00:48:13.315
And I know you shared the screenshot,
620
00:48:13.775 --> 00:48:15.700
I think earlier or in the tweet about,
621
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:21.540
Apple where they are now giving you all the data that's linked to you on
622
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.420
the different messengers and the different app, and it basically
623
00:48:24.965 --> 00:48:30.745
shows enough for Signum. Obviously, there's a tie to it, so, you know, we can talk about misleading that maybe.
624
00:48:31.445 --> 00:48:32.585
But the main
625
00:48:33.620 --> 00:48:36.440
if they're not storing any information about you,
626
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:41.080
they everything they've got, they just don't have it.
627
00:48:42.575 --> 00:48:48.195
628
00:48:48.655 --> 00:48:53.140
on the screen right now. I don't know if if you can see because you're you're coming in through mobile.
629
00:48:53.680 --> 00:48:57.540
Just just for the freaks out there, that's how dedicated diverter is. He's coming in through mobile.
630
00:48:59.599 --> 00:48:59.760
The
631
00:49:00.545 --> 00:49:03.605
Just I I think a key thing to to what was that?
632
00:49:05.425 --> 00:49:16.955
No. I just said, yeah. Busy week. Been a busy week. Busy week. Always hustling. I love it. You know, so I I think a key thing to keep in mind here, let's unpack it, and we'll double double unpack it,
633
00:49:17.515 --> 00:49:18.975
is first of all, signal
634
00:49:19.435 --> 00:49:25.375
technically isn't storing your phone number. There's they're storing a one way hash of your phone number. And what what a hash function does
635
00:49:25.809 --> 00:49:31.510
is basically if you provide a piece of data, in this case, your phone number, the hash will always be the same.
636
00:49:32.609 --> 00:49:51.599
But if you have the hash, you can't reverse engineer it to find the phone number. Now with phone numbers, it's a little bit different because phone numbers are like publicly accessible information. So if you have someone's phone number, you could put it in, find the hash, and know if it's a signal user. And that's, you know, that information they knew that it was a registered signal user. But, technically, on their servers, there's no,
637
00:49:52.655 --> 00:49:57.555
you know, your phone number there and your name, which is why they're saying data not linked to you. Once again, everything,
638
00:49:58.255 --> 00:49:59.075
tons of nuance.
639
00:49:59.935 --> 00:50:04.510
Yes. This is the the situation we wanna be in though is we want,
640
00:50:05.290 --> 00:50:09.230
all these companies defaults to be not collecting personal data.
641
00:50:10.105 --> 00:50:16.045
Are we trusting them? Sure. If it's open source, we can verify, but most people aren't gonna be going through verifiable
642
00:50:16.905 --> 00:50:18.525
means even if it's open source.
643
00:50:19.160 --> 00:50:30.675
So we do have to trust the companies, but at least the company should be outwardly saying their default is to collect as little information as possible and don't have that information to pass on. Now we're fortunately in a situation
644
00:50:31.775 --> 00:50:32.275
where
645
00:50:32.575 --> 00:50:36.035
the most powerful country on Earth, at least to to right now still,
646
00:50:36.335 --> 00:50:36.835
America
647
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:39.220
is fine with that.
648
00:50:40.240 --> 00:50:46.735
They are not making that illegal. They're not making that illegal. They're not saying that signal has to collect, you know, some kind of identifiable
649
00:50:47.035 --> 00:50:48.015
KYC information.
650
00:50:48.555 --> 00:50:52.975
They could. Right? And this is this interesting balance we find ourselves in
651
00:50:53.355 --> 00:50:53.855
where
652
00:50:55.150 --> 00:51:01.490
maybe signal's good enough. Right? But if the powers that be wanna squash it, they could squash it very, very easily.
653
00:51:05.035 --> 00:51:06.335
654
00:51:06.635 --> 00:51:09.295
Sure. And, you know, it's it
655
00:51:09.990 --> 00:51:12.230
Ragnar made a comment the other day, you know, about
656
00:51:13.110 --> 00:51:15.290
basically, if you're not your own ISP,
657
00:51:16.390 --> 00:51:22.615
and, you know, all the infrastructure top to bottom is not your own without, anybody else that can lean on you,
658
00:51:22.994 --> 00:51:24.135
then, you know, it's
659
00:51:25.474 --> 00:51:30.050
they have the ability to come in and and apply so much pressure that even if
660
00:51:30.670 --> 00:51:39.424
you don't, want to bend the knee, it's either, you know, fold it all in or, you know, do what they ask. So, yes, signal is you know, it's a centralized,
661
00:51:40.775 --> 00:51:41.275
company.
662
00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:44.840
US
663
00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:47.560
could come in, lean heavily on,
664
00:51:48.580 --> 00:51:49.960
and, you know, there would be
665
00:51:50.580 --> 00:51:53.240
as of right. Can we rely on that forever? No.
666
00:51:54.755 --> 00:51:59.175
There are some p two p, you know, type apps. Well, we might be able to. That's my point.
667
00:52:01.220 --> 00:52:10.775
668
00:52:11.155 --> 00:52:16.055
privacy focused organ like, it signals an interesting one. Right? Because it's not even a corporation.
669
00:52:16.600 --> 00:52:18.060
It's backed by a 501c3
670
00:52:18.600 --> 00:52:22.700
that their biggest competitor, WhatsApp, the founder donated a bunch of money,
671
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:26.055
to seed them. He I think he donate it was, like, over a $100,000,000
672
00:52:26.595 --> 00:52:27.815
he donated to them.
673
00:52:28.595 --> 00:52:40.920
So I think it's a very interesting model for a centralized privacy focused initiative in a world that's not completely adversarial. Right? Like, a lot of the things we talk about in Bitcoin land is completely adversarial. Like, we have to worry about
674
00:52:41.425 --> 00:52:48.085
all the way to the nth degree because if they compromise the money at any point, all money is compromised. You know, it's a massive incentive.
675
00:52:48.385 --> 00:52:50.484
But with with with private messaging,
676
00:52:52.750 --> 00:52:57.970
there's there's a middle ground. Right? Like, you you don't necessarily need to go, like, you know, full cypherpunk,
677
00:53:02.515 --> 00:53:03.015
hopefully.
678
00:53:04.835 --> 00:53:08.750
679
00:53:09.710 --> 00:53:11.010
You know, I suppose
680
00:53:11.950 --> 00:53:14.130
I don't see any difference yet with,
681
00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:16.130
the US government's
682
00:53:16.745 --> 00:53:20.285
wish to do mass surveillance. I don't think that's changed from the days of Snowden.
683
00:53:20.825 --> 00:53:22.685
If anything, I think since his,
684
00:53:25.200 --> 00:53:25.940
his revelations,
685
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:30.339
I think he's actually pushed probably that more into the shadows,
686
00:53:33.095 --> 00:53:35.035
you know, at at that level. So
687
00:53:35.415 --> 00:53:37.515
I think there's still a wish for that to do.
688
00:53:38.190 --> 00:53:43.089
I'd actually be I it's hard to say, but I think we haven't yet reached the point where
689
00:53:43.470 --> 00:53:45.810
there's enough in the playback from that power,
690
00:53:46.375 --> 00:53:51.355
to cause the pendulum swing the other way. Yeah. So I think we're probably looking at an increasing,
691
00:53:52.135 --> 00:53:52.635
encroachment
692
00:53:53.015 --> 00:53:53.515
of
693
00:53:54.310 --> 00:53:56.330
the free speech probably over the next few years,
694
00:53:57.109 --> 00:54:03.369
in multiple jurisdictions in the west, not just the US, but, you know, in the EU, UK. And then we're obviously seeing Australia,
695
00:54:04.505 --> 00:54:09.485
put put some pretty tough encryption laws in place. And then, and the UK has got key disclosure laws.
696
00:54:10.185 --> 00:54:21.130
And I think even if they're not constitutionally in the US, I think there's enough to believe yeah. There's already enough that you can see where people are working around the, the law enforcement are working around the
697
00:54:22.105 --> 00:54:34.480
letter of the law and going for other ways to to manage that such as, you know, civil forfeiture, that kind of stuff to, to to to apply pressure in other ways. So I still think, you know, I think for the time being, you you've gotta think adversarially,
698
00:54:35.100 --> 00:54:42.305
in a way because, yeah, the the the the the general direction is is is worse, if if you're looking for more privacy and sovereignty.
699
00:54:42.684 --> 00:54:44.704
700
00:54:45.164 --> 00:54:51.690
Like, you you expect the worst, but but you hope for the best. You know? And I I I think there's something to be said about
701
00:54:52.470 --> 00:54:56.010
us using all the tools at our disposal when they're at our disposal.
702
00:54:56.484 --> 00:55:00.505
You know? So we don't have to go, like, all the way extreme down the,
703
00:55:00.805 --> 00:55:03.945
you know, the censorship resistant trade off scale
704
00:55:04.549 --> 00:55:08.089
until it's absolutely necessary. Like, we can be prepared for it,
705
00:55:09.829 --> 00:55:13.130
but, you know you know, maybe it's not needed. I mean, to compare
706
00:55:13.475 --> 00:55:14.455
your home country,
707
00:55:15.555 --> 00:55:16.855
Great Britain versus
708
00:55:17.235 --> 00:55:20.355
my home country, the US, I mean, we're still
709
00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:27.119
you know, I talk shit about the constitution all the time because I just don't think it offers the kind of protections people think it offers.
710
00:55:27.740 --> 00:55:33.185
Yeah. But but still to this day, like, we don't have to disclose our passwords for encrypted drives. We're protected. Mhmm.
711
00:55:34.365 --> 00:55:40.580
We we still have base free speech, you know, solid free speech protections compared to the rest of the world.
712
00:55:41.220 --> 00:55:48.440
And and organizations like signal can take advantage of that to say all this data is encrypted. We don't know what our users are doing,
713
00:55:49.085 --> 00:55:50.785
and that's constitutionally protected.
714
00:55:51.085 --> 00:55:55.505
And if that's the case, if those tools are available to us, we'd be idiots not to use them.
715
00:55:56.285 --> 00:55:57.025
716
00:55:57.950 --> 00:55:58.450
717
00:55:59.390 --> 00:55:59.890
Absolutely.
718
00:56:00.350 --> 00:56:00.850
That's
719
00:56:01.870 --> 00:56:04.430
the tool is kind of a a a bit of a
720
00:56:05.230 --> 00:56:06.655
it's kinda what I do.
721
00:56:07.195 --> 00:56:08.175
I'm far from,
722
00:56:08.875 --> 00:56:11.455
a security expert, a privacy expert,
723
00:56:11.835 --> 00:56:12.335
cryptographic
724
00:56:12.635 --> 00:56:13.920
expert, any of that. I
725
00:56:14.720 --> 00:56:17.140
myself with people that I feel like are me.
726
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:20.579
I soak up their knowledge, and then I pass it off as my own.
727
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:22.660
Pro tip there.
728
00:56:23.464 --> 00:56:23.964
So
729
00:56:24.585 --> 00:56:25.085
but
730
00:56:26.185 --> 00:56:28.125
do is I get my hands dirty.
731
00:56:29.065 --> 00:56:30.444
I try stuff. Like,
732
00:56:31.625 --> 00:56:34.440
the other day, you've been using it for a while, Matt.
733
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:36.700
I hopped on to 3 month.
734
00:56:37.080 --> 00:56:38.860
Now the 3 month came out as,
735
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:45.244
released everything open source app plans to where the code can be reviewed. They've had a good couple,
736
00:56:45.565 --> 00:56:47.184
security audits recent.
737
00:56:47.885 --> 00:56:51.825
So I wanted to hop on there and see what see what that's like. Is this something that,
738
00:56:52.670 --> 00:56:55.650
you know, has strikes that right balance between privacy
739
00:56:58.120 --> 00:56:58.620
convenience?
740
00:57:00.135 --> 00:57:00.635
Sometimes
741
00:57:01.175 --> 00:57:07.915
something warrants you going ahead and encrypting locally, using your own local PGP encryption before you send it regard
742
00:57:08.829 --> 00:57:09.329
So
743
00:57:10.670 --> 00:57:12.450
like you said, there's so much
744
00:57:12.750 --> 00:57:18.210
nuance and balance and trade off to this whole thing. I mean, bingo boards are lighting up everywhere right now.
745
00:57:18.984 --> 00:57:19.484
746
00:57:20.744 --> 00:57:27.085
747
00:57:28.690 --> 00:57:30.309
advise everyone to
748
00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:33.589
use these things. Get your hands on them. Use them.
749
00:57:34.130 --> 00:57:36.710
See see what, you know, they feel like.
750
00:57:38.355 --> 00:57:39.335
See the difference,
751
00:57:39.795 --> 00:57:48.500
and understand what the different trade offs means so that you can then explain that to the people that you communicate with. That's the way we spread this stuff.
752
00:57:49.040 --> 00:57:52.260
753
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:53.780
So so,
754
00:57:54.565 --> 00:57:59.384
I mean, we were in a group chat on Keybase. So twofold. First of all,
755
00:57:59.765 --> 00:58:01.920
he mentioned Prima. We've been talking about signal.
756
00:58:02.620 --> 00:58:05.360
Both allow them to view your key in app,
757
00:58:05.900 --> 00:58:09.120
with a scannable QR code. And the idea there is
758
00:58:09.865 --> 00:58:14.525
the app has already told you that you have a secure connection, whether that's signal or 3 month.
759
00:58:14.905 --> 00:58:21.329
If you scan the QR code through another means, it's important that it's through another means, not through the same app.
760
00:58:22.190 --> 00:58:23.410
Then you have a second,
761
00:58:24.965 --> 00:58:28.905
confirmation. A second confirmation that the key wasn't changed in between,
762
00:58:29.845 --> 00:58:34.025
your your transfer. Right? That transfer of the original key is is super important.
763
00:58:34.950 --> 00:58:38.329
So you're supposed to verify that. Almost in practice, nobody does,
764
00:58:38.630 --> 00:58:38.869
but,
765
00:58:39.750 --> 00:58:44.010
you know, if you're breaking your your lockdown or you live in the same place that doesn't have a lockdown,
766
00:58:44.455 --> 00:58:55.930
verify with your friends that the key is the same. If the key changes, verify again. If you don't have the liberty of seeing them in person, you know, I don't even know what you guys look like. I only know you through online. Confirm through a second messenger at least.
767
00:58:56.309 --> 00:59:02.650
Yeah. Obviously, like, we we can go in-depth on PGP here and we probably will, but that's another nuance thing.
768
00:59:03.295 --> 00:59:06.115
These are little things you can verify, important to do.
769
00:59:06.895 --> 00:59:07.855
Now to go back,
770
00:59:08.175 --> 00:59:10.595
you mentioned, like, we were talking about Treema.
771
00:59:11.270 --> 00:59:15.130
I think this is like a funny little story because I think it's, like, perfectly encapsulates,
772
00:59:18.230 --> 00:59:22.414
what what your how you have to look at privacy. Unfortunately, it's just the reality.
773
00:59:23.275 --> 00:59:25.515
And and, you know, we met
774
00:59:26.315 --> 00:59:27.855
the 3 of us met on Twitter.
775
00:59:28.420 --> 00:59:30.839
We had started conversations on Telegram,
776
00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:45.625
and then we moved to Keybase to be more, you know, more secure. We thought it was a more secure trade off balance. Keybase recently changed their terms of service, and then we had a whole group discussion in Keybase about moving to 3 month. Right? And it's just a constant,
777
00:59:46.270 --> 00:59:47.650
process of just
778
00:59:48.030 --> 00:59:57.825
figuring out the trade offs and assessing the trade offs, assessing the current situation that that we find ourselves in and proceeding forward based on that analysis. Right?
779
01:00:00.045 --> 01:00:03.905
780
01:00:04.540 --> 01:00:08.880
it's worth playing around, obviously, and trying it. But I think if you're gonna be jumping around messengers,
781
01:00:09.500 --> 01:00:15.335
start doing that with your friends that are more willing to jump around messengers so you don't piss up all your other mates
782
01:00:16.435 --> 01:00:17.335
when you do that.
783
01:00:17.635 --> 01:00:28.570
A few things I've noticed coming in. I mean, I'm yet to see kind of what's like in a large group chat, how it works there. One of the things I've actually noticed already is using signal for large group chats
784
01:00:28.870 --> 01:00:30.490
really sucks. It's not good.
785
01:00:31.435 --> 01:00:32.734
It's just small things,
786
01:00:33.115 --> 01:00:35.855
like not being able to delete media on mass.
787
01:00:36.155 --> 01:00:41.215
So if your phone's kind of running out of space because you're in a large group with people chucking video and pictures in,
788
01:00:42.210 --> 01:00:59.965
you actually you actually can't clean through the, through the app easily unless I've missed a setting, but anything. So, you know, whereas WhatsApp, it has kind of better storage management options and obviously Telegram keeps stuff in the cache. So I think, you know, a big part of it is actually choosing the right messenger for the job, before you kind of, you know, you jump and
789
01:01:01.160 --> 01:01:04.380
and and and make the kind of the attempt to shift your network with it.
790
01:01:09.065 --> 01:01:13.964
791
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:16.980
792
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:19.460
793
01:01:20.560 --> 01:01:21.619
Who wants to start?
794
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:23.460
Well,
795
01:01:23.855 --> 01:01:34.720
I'll just say I think Iago had the, most succinct point, which is is that Telegram is social media. It's not video. And that's where you should start from there as I look there. And then Feeds with Twitter
796
01:01:35.020 --> 01:01:36.240
797
01:01:36.859 --> 01:01:37.760
798
01:01:38.220 --> 01:01:44.545
Although having said that, I have had people that are pretty comfortable doing certain things on a on secret message request,
799
01:01:45.165 --> 01:01:47.185
and it works pretty well for that.
800
01:01:48.445 --> 01:01:53.750
Yeah. I think I think the cool thing though is is that what I like about Tay Ramos, what I like is is that
801
01:01:54.370 --> 01:01:56.390
I still think there's a place for
802
01:01:56.930 --> 01:01:59.350
publicly endorsing companies that
803
01:01:59.650 --> 01:02:00.870
at least outwardly,
804
01:02:02.305 --> 01:02:02.945
show us,
805
01:02:04.385 --> 01:02:05.285
show us strength,
806
01:02:05.745 --> 01:02:06.245
against,
807
01:02:06.785 --> 01:02:07.285
coercion,
808
01:02:07.665 --> 01:02:17.329
whether it be from corporations or governments or anything like that. And I think that, yeah, sure. We all know that Durov could really disappoint us. And,
809
01:02:18.935 --> 01:02:23.195
you know, you know, we could find that the empty proto algo has been broken.
810
01:02:23.575 --> 01:02:24.875
The encryption is compromised.
811
01:02:25.390 --> 01:02:33.325
We all like to be done, but at the same time, I think, you know, I think it's a positive move anyway to move away from platforms like Twitter where there's
812
01:02:33.964 --> 01:02:34.464
uneven.
813
01:02:35.165 --> 01:02:39.505
I don't like using the term censorship, but uneven moderation that you disagree with, for example.
814
01:02:39.805 --> 01:02:45.039
Whereas Twitter, I think, is far more liberal in that, and, I think it's far more fair in what they allow platform.
815
01:02:45.339 --> 01:02:53.085
And, actually, you know, like kind of, you know, like you would in the market, you know, avoiding one chunk and takes the other. I don't think we should ask you,
816
01:02:53.485 --> 01:02:54.945
centralized solutions entirely,
817
01:02:55.245 --> 01:02:56.385
and they're great for
818
01:02:56.765 --> 01:02:58.705
putting people into the funnel and getting
819
01:02:59.005 --> 01:03:05.130
used to it. I mean, just bringing friends into a Telegram group from WhatsApp and then being able to search for GIFs,
820
01:03:05.830 --> 01:03:19.400
that were previously banned on WhatsApp and you couldn't find is actually enough of a red pill for some people to get started. That's actually important to know that it's actually still an Internet out there, but they can search something that might not be, you know, endorsed by some,
821
01:03:20.200 --> 01:03:21.420
you know, woke,
822
01:03:22.200 --> 01:03:22.700
SJW
823
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:25.019
type or, or some other heavily
824
01:03:25.665 --> 01:03:28.805
conservative person that doesn't wanna see pornography or anything else.
825
01:03:29.585 --> 01:03:35.500
Oh, yeah. So, you know, I I think, you know, if you if you approach it like social media, you're aware
826
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:40.940
of the concept. I think Telegram's a great messenger, and I think it's fantastic from a user
827
01:03:41.565 --> 01:03:46.445
privacy perspective in terms of policies they have. Obviously, it's not as locked down as,
828
01:03:47.244 --> 01:03:49.265
secure private messages like and
829
01:03:49.565 --> 01:03:53.180
signal, But there's certainly a big improvement over the kind of the
830
01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:55.579
the Google app or Facebook,
831
01:03:56.359 --> 01:03:57.099
you know,
832
01:03:58.385 --> 01:04:02.705
aspect of companies where, you know, so much that information is being shared and,
833
01:04:03.425 --> 01:04:05.025
I don't think has the same degree of,
834
01:04:05.585 --> 01:04:06.565
lockdown there.
835
01:04:07.569 --> 01:04:10.950
836
01:04:14.464 --> 01:04:14.964
837
01:04:15.505 --> 01:04:17.285
stickers, no end to end encryption.
838
01:04:19.105 --> 01:04:20.565
I I with Max, a 100%
839
01:04:20.865 --> 01:04:25.000
on on the looking at at Telegram as more of a social media
840
01:04:25.460 --> 01:04:27.000
than, a secure messenger.
841
01:04:27.700 --> 01:04:28.200
But
842
01:04:28.580 --> 01:04:30.840
having said that, you know, I I'm a US
843
01:04:31.194 --> 01:04:36.335
based customer. So, you know, again, this is where the SMS stuff comes in. So if I wasn't,
844
01:04:36.954 --> 01:04:42.470
used to communicating with SMS, maybe that would be different. Maybe I would view it different. As it stands right now,
845
01:04:43.089 --> 01:04:46.470
signal to me is basically like having a Telegram
846
01:04:46.849 --> 01:04:49.030
secret chat on all the time.
847
01:04:50.464 --> 01:04:52.565
Telegram, I could go in. I can,
848
01:04:52.944 --> 01:04:57.285
you know, relax and hang out in groups with my friends. We can chat. We can do whatever,
849
01:04:57.600 --> 01:04:59.940
and it's it works great. It's seamless.
850
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:07.425
Great stickers, like I said. That's one of the bonuses I love about signal, was being able to move my Telegram stickers to Cigna.
851
01:05:08.205 --> 01:05:11.505
So that's a big deal for me, you know, when you're dealing with social media apps.
852
01:05:13.965 --> 01:05:15.025
Biggest difference.
853
01:05:15.485 --> 01:05:15.985
But
854
01:05:18.319 --> 01:05:19.619
what's that? Look.
855
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:21.700
856
01:05:22.240 --> 01:05:26.260
The toolset that they provide you, the features they provide you for free
857
01:05:26.805 --> 01:05:28.025
are fucking fantastic.
858
01:05:29.045 --> 01:05:31.704
Yep. They have no business model whatsoever.
859
01:05:32.325 --> 01:05:41.559
They don't serve you ads. They're sup they Durov, you know, Pavel Durov, the the founder says he doesn't he doesn't scrape all of our information for ads and stuff,
860
01:05:42.019 --> 01:05:48.105
and they provide you up to 2 gigs of files you can send. People host whole movies on Telegram.
861
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:49.820
The
862
01:05:50.165 --> 01:05:55.230
but but some things are too good to be true, and I question myself every day. I wonder,
863
01:05:55.690 --> 01:06:03.525
you know, this guy is either a based fucking billionaire, the Zuckerberg of of of Russia who created Russian Facebook and then
864
01:06:03.825 --> 01:06:06.405
got kicked out of Russia, how to sell and left Russia.
865
01:06:07.010 --> 01:06:08.470
So he's either a base billionaire
866
01:06:08.850 --> 01:06:16.005
or he's in the pocket of one of the intelligence operations because it's like, how is he just spending all this money hosting all my shit for me,
867
01:06:16.964 --> 01:06:23.305
with with no business model whatsoever? And I know now he's got he's launching a business model, but it's just a really interesting
868
01:06:23.980 --> 01:06:31.680
thing and really interesting concept. And at the same time, he's got, you know, his apps. He has a free open source version of Telegram, the client.
869
01:06:33.095 --> 01:06:38.955
There are some questions with their encryption algorithm they chose, but they could have been just cocky about it, you know,
870
01:06:39.930 --> 01:06:42.910
Why why break the encryption? Why give weak encryption
871
01:06:43.530 --> 01:06:50.565
when the overwhelming majority of chats that are happening are just sitting, you know, not intend encrypted on your on your own service.
872
01:06:51.025 --> 01:06:56.245
And then the last thing is, I mean, we saw them recently start censoring channels, and and the issue is
873
01:06:56.830 --> 01:06:57.970
is the same issue,
874
01:06:58.910 --> 01:07:02.050
that we keep seeing is if if these corporations
875
01:07:02.670 --> 01:07:04.370
know what their users are doing,
876
01:07:04.734 --> 01:07:10.994
they they're they have the data to censor. They're gonna be compelled to censor based off of that data.
877
01:07:11.295 --> 01:07:17.130
And and they're gonna be rejected from app stores. And and maybe Telegram's a little bit more resistant than other
878
01:07:17.830 --> 01:07:25.815
apps because they do have, you know, open source versions of their apps. You can get a direct download APK. You can get it from F droid. You they have a web app version.
879
01:07:26.755 --> 01:07:27.494
But ultimately,
880
01:07:28.115 --> 01:07:33.330
he needs to comply with anything Apple or Google tells him do. Otherwise, he's gonna get removed from the app stores.
881
01:07:34.110 --> 01:07:37.250
So so we're starting to see this censorship roll in, and
882
01:07:37.710 --> 01:07:41.025
that brings me to our our other killed darling,
883
01:07:41.805 --> 01:07:43.984
with our love hate relationship, which is Keybase.
884
01:07:45.405 --> 01:07:50.730
And and Keybase has historically been very good about not censoring user content.
885
01:07:51.430 --> 01:07:53.530
They have more sane defaults than Telegram.
886
01:07:54.230 --> 01:07:56.250
It is end to end encrypted by default.
887
01:07:57.155 --> 01:08:03.415
I think it's important for users to realize that these large group chats, it doesn't really matter if it's end to end encrypted because At all. Any
888
01:08:03.795 --> 01:08:08.460
any person in that chat could be a mole. You have 200 people in the chat. One of them is a fucking mole.
889
01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:09.420
Right.
890
01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:11.420
He he needs to log in all the information.
891
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.780
So but so so let's jump into Keybase.
892
01:08:15.295 --> 01:08:20.915
Max, Keybase. Well, let's start with Diverter this time. Diverter, Keybase. Why do you love it? Why do you hate it?
893
01:08:21.775 --> 01:08:23.215
894
01:08:23.855 --> 01:08:24.515
the Keybase
895
01:08:25.250 --> 01:08:27.910
Spot system, the, the public folders.
896
01:08:29.570 --> 01:08:31.030
Really good feature, underutilized,
897
01:08:31.490 --> 01:08:34.070
I feel like. Used that for a long time.
898
01:08:34.905 --> 01:08:36.125
What I don't like,
899
01:08:36.505 --> 01:08:37.005
is
900
01:08:37.785 --> 01:08:40.605
the recent change to their terms of service where
901
01:08:42.510 --> 01:08:44.770
are very, open to hosting, like
902
01:08:45.230 --> 01:08:45.730
suspense
903
01:08:46.909 --> 01:08:48.530
the 3 d gun printing crowd,
904
01:08:49.469 --> 01:08:50.929
quite a large group there.
905
01:08:52.155 --> 01:08:55.615
And now those terms of service have changed, to explicitly
906
01:08:55.995 --> 01:08:57.295
ban that, which
907
01:08:58.395 --> 01:09:00.895
that's really I I really have a problem,
908
01:09:01.270 --> 01:09:07.530
when we get into stuff like that. I I don't necessarily mind so much if it's illegal in your country. What
909
01:09:07.989 --> 01:09:10.265
I'm gonna say, you know, we have,
910
01:09:10.745 --> 01:09:12.365
advocating for criminals,
911
01:09:12.745 --> 01:09:21.670
to be able to break the law without getting caught. That's not what privacy is about. So if it's illegal in your country, I mean, what, you know, what are you gonna do? But for something that's not illegal,
912
01:09:22.289 --> 01:09:28.905
that's more of, of bending the knee to this, you know, the this this woke movement or whatever you wanna call it,
913
01:09:29.605 --> 01:09:32.425
I I start to have a problem with it. What really
914
01:09:32.804 --> 01:09:37.770
put it over the edge for me is some of the very vague wording that they they began using
915
01:09:38.150 --> 01:09:41.270
on that terms of service, which is similar to the way Twitter goes,
916
01:09:42.470 --> 01:09:43.370
which is basically
917
01:09:44.055 --> 01:09:47.195
blah blah blah and anything otherwise objectionable.
918
01:09:48.055 --> 01:09:56.790
Sure. Now you you find the thing that can't fit in there, and then we'll talk. You know? I I can't be censored then. That's where I really went into a problem.
919
01:10:04.645 --> 01:10:05.625
920
01:10:06.085 --> 01:10:08.905
just to add, add fuel to the fire here,
921
01:10:09.739 --> 01:10:14.320
Diverter is one of the admins with me of the largest Bitcoin, Keybase group.
922
01:10:15.660 --> 01:10:20.034
So his his his anger towards Keybase And it was the Keybase account.
923
01:10:22.175 --> 01:10:25.715
Yeah. It is it's coming from a user that has used it significantly.
924
01:10:26.060 --> 01:10:30.320
I mean, I I think I think there's 2 elements here that people should keep in mind with Keybase
925
01:10:30.860 --> 01:10:33.075
is it's a both a messaging app.
926
01:10:33.715 --> 01:10:38.215
I guess it's 3 fold. It's a messaging app. It's an identity layer that ties into PGP,
927
01:10:39.235 --> 01:10:41.015
and your and your social accounts.
928
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:43.820
And it's also a file storage,
929
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:51.545
service, where they provide free file storage. And they were recently bought by Zoom, which is does not have a very privacy track record.
930
01:10:52.725 --> 01:10:55.225
So so I could a 100%, you know,
931
01:10:55.605 --> 01:10:59.625
like, let's be honest here. When you're hosting other people's files, you have massive liability,
932
01:11:00.450 --> 01:11:01.350
public files.
933
01:11:01.890 --> 01:11:03.910
If those are 3 d printed gun files,
934
01:11:05.010 --> 01:11:07.670
you know, I I a 100% support the movement,
935
01:11:08.085 --> 01:11:12.585
but they have massive liability there. That is different than them going after,
936
01:11:12.965 --> 01:11:15.545
encrypted chats so they might not know the actual
937
01:11:16.005 --> 01:11:17.660
what's being discussed in the chat.
938
01:11:18.460 --> 01:11:29.235
And and and this goes back to our previous conversation of when when these companies know what's going on that they can be compelled to censor based on the information they know that's going on. So there's a portion of Keybase's,
939
01:11:31.770 --> 01:11:32.270
Keybase's
940
01:11:32.650 --> 01:11:39.935
offering where they know what's going on, which is those publicly hosted files, which are are known publicly. Anyone downloading them knows what those files are.
941
01:11:40.495 --> 01:11:47.555
And then they have these private chats and their their software is supposed to be end to end encrypted. It's free open source software so you can technically verify
942
01:11:49.080 --> 01:11:50.540
that it is encrypted locally.
943
01:11:51.160 --> 01:11:55.820
Both with with Signal and Keybase, their server is not open source. But because
944
01:11:56.715 --> 01:11:59.855
their client is open source and you know that it's encrypted locally,
945
01:12:00.555 --> 01:12:07.580
it doesn't mat you don't have to technically, you don't have to trust the server with with the actual with the actual privacy of the contents of the information.
946
01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:11.980
So, I mean, it should be interesting to see how that plays out. They have not,
947
01:12:12.725 --> 01:12:22.025
act I don't believe they've actually censored people based off of it. I think with the Biden administration, we're about to see a massive deplatforming of the 3 d gun printing crowd,
948
01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:26.220
and it'll probably be the biggest free speech fight since,
949
01:12:27.080 --> 01:12:27.580
porn,
950
01:12:28.200 --> 01:12:32.125
in the United States, and it should be really interesting to watch how that unfolds.
951
01:12:32.745 --> 01:12:40.205
I was kinda I kinda wanted to unpack here. I just wanted to sit here for a moment and dive in. On the terms of service thing, like, are we,
952
01:12:42.810 --> 01:12:47.070
and this has come up before, specifically in Bitcoin and Wasabi's terms of service.
953
01:12:49.895 --> 01:12:50.395
954
01:12:51.815 --> 01:13:02.710
955
01:13:03.965 --> 01:13:18.350
but they haven't acted on it, and they're kinda just legally covering their ass. Is there is there any nuance there with you guys? Is there any wiggle room that's, like, you know, Keybase says, you know, you can't do anything illegal on our platform, but they don't actually come out swinging?
956
01:13:18.730 --> 01:13:22.655
Like, is is that acceptable or do you we just move no matter what?
957
01:13:26.715 --> 01:13:39.599
958
01:13:40.065 --> 01:13:56.140
Quite honestly, I'm actually surprised that both, you know, you, Matt, and Deborah are actually still continuing on that Bitcoin group on eBay speakers for me, like, I know just the chat features. I intend to encrypt in group chats just kind of suck a bit. Like, it's I find the client slow, you know, they're a bit bloaty.
959
01:13:56.655 --> 01:13:59.235
Doesn't work to be one of my Android with my end notifications,
960
01:14:00.095 --> 01:14:01.395
because I'm using a USB.
961
01:14:02.575 --> 01:14:08.040
And even on, like, iPhone and, Mac OS, it's it's not great. So to be honest, you know,
962
01:14:08.340 --> 01:14:15.240
963
01:14:15.565 --> 01:14:22.945
3 big UX things I like about our Keybase Group or Bitcoin Keybase Group is it's it's very difficult for impersonators to impersonate you,
964
01:14:23.409 --> 01:14:29.030
because of their their follow mechanism and the way they link into other social media handles. And that's a major issue,
965
01:14:29.650 --> 01:14:30.949
for more public Bitcoiners,
966
01:14:31.975 --> 01:14:41.650
on Telegram and Twitter where I just have people impersonating me all the time, so it's more difficult for them to do that on Keybase as a platform. I like that I can in the in our supergroup, we can have channels.
967
01:14:42.429 --> 01:14:47.170
I know Diverter was, like, training people on PGP in one of the channels. It's really hard to do that,
968
01:14:47.735 --> 01:14:52.235
in in these in these Telegram groups when they get larger, they get they get kind of unruly.
969
01:14:53.415 --> 01:14:56.690
And then the third thing is I I I like the auto delete. Like,
970
01:14:57.330 --> 01:15:14.855
I I I know it's, like, kind of just a a comfort blanket. It's just it's it's something that if the actual platform is compromised, they're logging all the information anyway. If there's a mole on the group chat, he's logging all the information anyway. But it's just nice to know that every message is just getting deleted from everyone's phones, every 90 days.
971
01:15:15.230 --> 01:15:29.865
972
01:15:30.485 --> 01:15:47.764
how you should follow people. So what I was finding is it's almost like Twitter where people are, like just random people are following you, and people didn't really know to check stuff. And I have people kind of setting up failed proofs and then messaging me. So, you know, even like Keybase, I think, had probably done it the best.
973
01:15:48.065 --> 01:15:49.364
I still found the whole
974
01:15:49.665 --> 01:15:56.710
impersonation thing. Okay. There wasn't as widespread impersonation going on, but I still found it pretty awkward,
975
01:15:57.329 --> 01:16:04.724
to get kind of, you know, the the trust working and to know how to do the signing, as well. And I think it's partly because,
976
01:16:05.025 --> 01:16:10.510
ultimately, like, since they've been bought out, especially now, I don't think they were developing it much further. You know? Doing nothing.
977
01:16:10.890 --> 01:16:39.554
978
01:16:40.094 --> 01:16:43.875
979
01:16:45.220 --> 01:16:45.720
the
980
01:16:46.180 --> 01:16:46.680
the
981
01:16:47.220 --> 01:16:49.400
the terms and services and all that?
982
01:16:50.580 --> 01:17:03.760
So I kind of agree with you in some ways. Like, there's a big part of me and certainly, you know, a few years ago, I didn't read any terms and conditions. I didn't care about them. And if the act did what I needed to do, I was quite happy with it. But I think it's a pretty useful
983
01:17:05.100 --> 01:17:05.600
indicator
984
01:17:06.060 --> 01:17:07.680
as to how people think,
985
01:17:08.140 --> 01:17:09.440
and the devs think
986
01:17:12.364 --> 01:17:25.850
when those terms and conditions and things like that are written. And I think it's a hard thing to get across to someone, but especially if they're resistant to hearing stuff they don't wanna hear and they like a particular app and they're wet into it or they've even, you know, they put
987
01:17:26.350 --> 01:17:36.065
if you're looking at something like WASAPI, they may have mixed all their coins with it. And therefore, they don't wanna hear anything about it. They just paid some stats for it. And then they don't wanna hear that, you know, that maybe those kind of,
988
01:17:37.590 --> 01:17:42.570
but, you know, they they don't wanna hear kind of the unwelcome truth about it. But I think for me, I think it's
989
01:17:43.030 --> 01:17:47.135
it's in it's quite indicative of of how someone's gonna build their product
990
01:17:47.534 --> 01:17:54.994
and how it's gonna be tailored and as it gets built. If someone is, like, on on the on the product side or the development side
991
01:17:55.380 --> 01:17:59.880
already basically saying you can't do certain things with it and not actually,
992
01:18:00.820 --> 01:18:05.665
you know, not actually going right from the get go that this is a, you know, an open source tool.
993
01:18:06.145 --> 01:18:07.685
It is only dealing with text.
994
01:18:07.985 --> 01:18:13.699
You know, they're already kind of trying to comply with something that already exists. It's a pretty good,
995
01:18:14.719 --> 01:18:16.660
good good good indicator that
996
01:18:17.905 --> 01:18:22.804
that that things are gonna go wrong later and that that, you know, that their approach is gonna be flawed anyway.
997
01:18:23.344 --> 01:18:28.469
And I don't wanna make this something obviously about kind of coin joint specific, but I think it's kind of interesting that
998
01:18:29.170 --> 01:18:38.765
after what we saw in something like the terms and conditions with, not being able to use it, I think for kind of, you know, maybe illegal gambling might have even been one of those things. I can't actually remember.
999
01:18:39.145 --> 01:18:42.025
There are quite a few things. I certainly think for,
1000
01:18:45.020 --> 01:19:15.845
sex work and things like that. I'm pretty sure that wasn't allowed on it as well. You know? So, but, again, I can't remember the exact detail. But I think then that was interesting in the way that they designed their product later and that we saw with the founders talking about things like, you know, you KYC on an exchange, and then you get privacy afterwards. So I think that when someone's got that attitude from the get go, then they design the product in a certain way. And I think that's also a very good kind of smoke signal for kind of knowing that that that, you know, you're probably using something that's gonna be built the wrong way.
1001
01:19:24.180 --> 01:19:28.295
1002
01:19:28.915 --> 01:19:31.175
I I didn't really wanna talk about,
1003
01:19:32.115 --> 01:19:36.375
CoinJoint specifically. Okay. But I I did wanna talk about terms of service,
1004
01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:38.660
because I I I think there
1005
01:19:39.920 --> 01:19:42.180
you know, we live we live in this
1006
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:44.100
intensely
1007
01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:45.620
litigious society,
1008
01:19:46.934 --> 01:19:49.275
A heavily regulated litigious society.
1009
01:19:51.175 --> 01:19:52.954
And I know I find myself,
1010
01:19:54.030 --> 01:19:56.929
covering my ass more than realistically I'm
1011
01:19:57.550 --> 01:19:59.650
going to act on that, you know?
1012
01:20:01.150 --> 01:20:01.650
And
1013
01:20:03.435 --> 01:20:04.735
to the point where,
1014
01:20:05.435 --> 01:20:15.080
you know, I I I get DMs. I'm open DMs. Right? I to the freaks that that if I haven't responded to your DMs, my DMs are completely overwhelmed, and you should message me on Keybase,
1015
01:20:15.860 --> 01:20:21.195
because I prefer the interface and at least it's, like, kind of encrypted and we should probably be better off there.
1016
01:20:22.534 --> 01:20:27.840
But, like, I get, like, open DMs about privacy focused things. Right? And there's certain things, like, I don't feel comfortable answering because who the fuck knows who's on the other side of that. Right?
1017
01:20:34.320 --> 01:20:43.355
And if they're trying to pigeonhole me and trying trying to catch me in in in something that might be illegal when that's not my intention, where my intention is is perfectly legal,
1018
01:20:44.780 --> 01:20:47.680
you know, people who who who care about privacy.
1019
01:20:48.380 --> 01:20:56.474
Yeah. And and so privacy tools, like, I completely like, if I and and to the point where I would not release a commercial privacy tool
1020
01:20:56.935 --> 01:21:06.360
because I care about my privacy and I care about my my potential users, and I just wouldn't fucking put myself in that situation. I don't wanna be in that situation where I could get pinched.
1021
01:21:07.780 --> 01:21:15.735
But I I I kinda feel for someone who's releasing a privacy product and it's just like on their terms and conditions, they're like, you can't use this for illegal things.
1022
01:21:16.290 --> 01:21:17.830
But that doesn't mean they're necessarily
1023
01:21:18.450 --> 01:21:23.510
like, obviously, they know, you know, that's a blurred line and that they don't know
1024
01:21:23.970 --> 01:21:25.350
what that means. Right?
1025
01:21:25.725 --> 01:21:31.425
1026
01:21:31.805 --> 01:21:37.320
but, I mean, I don't put on my terms and conditions on my side that you can't use a phone for illegal purposes.
1027
01:21:38.260 --> 01:21:50.905
And I think if I did do it and someone did use it for legal purposes, I think me putting it in the terms and conditions wouldn't help me in the slightest. It wouldn't make any difference. And I think that, you know, I I think we owe it to ourselves to
1028
01:21:51.930 --> 01:21:54.910
to just not cock ourselves from the outset and
1029
01:21:55.690 --> 01:22:04.844
just, you know, you know, this is a bit like kinda doing tweets with, this isn't investment advice. I mean, stop doing that. You're not achieving anything. Mhmm.
1030
01:22:05.224 --> 01:22:07.724
Protecting yourself. If you go out and, you know,
1031
01:22:08.105 --> 01:22:17.760
she'll shit clients and then go, oh, yeah, but not investment advice. That doesn't mean that you're not, you know, you're not giving people potentially bad advice or whatever. Just, you know, own it. Own some responsibility.
1032
01:22:18.620 --> 01:22:19.840
I I find it
1033
01:22:20.175 --> 01:22:22.995
I I've got less and less patience for these days.
1034
01:22:24.175 --> 01:22:25.855
1035
01:22:26.575 --> 01:22:29.635
1036
01:22:29.990 --> 01:22:30.730
1037
01:22:31.510 --> 01:22:34.010
1038
01:22:34.390 --> 01:22:52.199
items that infringe or violate any intellectual property rights, ammunition, firearms, explosives, transactions that show the personal information, third parties, and violations of applicable law, transactions that support pyramid, Ponzi, or other get rich quick schemes, provide credit card, repair or debt settlement services, explicit sexual content,
1039
01:22:52.500 --> 01:22:54.600
money laundering, or any support thereof.
1040
01:22:55.835 --> 01:22:59.935
Like, they can't they can't tell this. No. They said, why why
1041
01:23:00.875 --> 01:23:25.150
1042
01:23:26.485 --> 01:23:29.945
There's a process and there's a specific definition for what is.
1043
01:23:30.405 --> 01:23:35.440
It doesn't tie up here at all. So I think it's I think it's widespread ignorance,
1044
01:23:36.719 --> 01:23:41.219
and it's it's people that are nervous, and they think that kind of
1045
01:23:41.645 --> 01:23:44.864
showing a kind of nodding, you know, nodding acknowledgement
1046
01:23:45.485 --> 01:23:48.764
powers that they somehow absolve them and mean that they won't get,
1047
01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:52.980
a pressure applied to them and of their business. It's just weak.
1048
01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:56.420
Right.
1049
01:23:57.280 --> 01:23:58.340
Wonder about that.
1050
01:23:58.835 --> 01:24:04.215
1051
01:24:05.930 --> 01:24:08.750
My my defense of it is that it's it's a weak defense.
1052
01:24:12.250 --> 01:24:12.750
1053
01:24:14.275 --> 01:24:16.755
But one of the one of the point that Max,
1054
01:24:17.155 --> 01:24:26.100
brings up is is it it is it's almost one of those things where you're just kinda hoping that I stay just enough to keep them off of me. Like,
1055
01:24:26.739 --> 01:24:35.655
you know, maybe if I if I just tell them that I'm not gonna allow this stuff, it'll it'll keep regulators from looking at me so closely. I think that's a mistake. I think that's commonly
1056
01:24:36.035 --> 01:24:37.575
a a common mistake, actually.
1057
01:24:38.810 --> 01:24:39.550
It's kind
1058
01:24:41.290 --> 01:24:45.390
of the reason we're, in in in Bitcoin and even talking about this stuff is,
1059
01:24:45.930 --> 01:24:46.590
you know,
1060
01:24:46.970 --> 01:24:48.270
we're routing around.
1061
01:24:49.375 --> 01:24:50.675
All this time spent
1062
01:24:51.135 --> 01:24:55.610
and, look, I get it. You wanna write a letter to, you know, the fat foot people and and,
1063
01:24:56.090 --> 01:25:00.409
what's smart to call them, a munching butts or whoever. You wanna write a letter to the people
1064
01:25:01.770 --> 01:25:06.105
tell them that they're printing on our freedoms and all this stuff. Fine. Okay. Write your
1065
01:25:06.405 --> 01:25:07.225
letter. Spend
1066
01:25:07.565 --> 01:25:08.065
4
1067
01:25:08.645 --> 01:25:10.985
times in that letter. Spend 4
1068
01:25:12.245 --> 01:25:14.585
that time learning around that enforcement.
1069
01:25:15.210 --> 01:25:16.350
That's what's important.
1070
01:25:17.610 --> 01:25:30.455
We're just gonna route around it anyway. So any any appearance that, hey. You know, we're one of the good guys too. You know, we we don't like child porn either. Well, of course, you don't. You know, and and and if you see it, yeah, get it off there. You know, we're not,
1071
01:25:31.980 --> 01:25:37.040
I guess, what you call free speech absolutist. You know, I don't wanna see child porn. I don't wanna see child porn.
1072
01:25:37.980 --> 01:25:39.120
You know, messenger.
1073
01:25:39.420 --> 01:25:41.265
Sure. Take it off. Fine.
1074
01:25:43.085 --> 01:25:46.065
But don't don't tell me that I shouldn't be looking at 3
1075
01:25:47.005 --> 01:25:51.500
d printed guns area to be looking at downloading and making 3 d printed gun.
1076
01:25:52.920 --> 01:25:56.205
It we get into a real murky area where it's almost like they're
1077
01:25:56.685 --> 01:25:59.745
trying to be moral, and that's where I run into problem.
1078
01:26:00.765 --> 01:26:02.465
1079
01:26:02.765 --> 01:26:04.465
I think you would argue that,
1080
01:26:06.449 --> 01:26:08.469
fuck legality of a pers particular
1081
01:26:09.170 --> 01:26:11.590
particular jurisdiction. I mean, the
1082
01:26:11.969 --> 01:26:13.670
the operator shouldn't know,
1083
01:26:14.784 --> 01:26:17.045
what's being discussed in the 1st place. So
1084
01:26:18.145 --> 01:26:21.764
1085
01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:26.020
you know, public open groups, you know, what are you gonna do?
1086
01:26:26.560 --> 01:26:33.165
Of course, there's feds in there. You know, you think there's 20,000 some people in the in the key base, deterrents dispense.
1087
01:26:34.665 --> 01:26:39.965
Half of them. Of those are they gonna pay? Honestly. You know, come on. Look, we did the bear arms and big one conference,
1088
01:26:40.620 --> 01:26:44.640
last year. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Love to.
1089
01:26:46.060 --> 01:26:46.880
Last year,
1090
01:26:48.875 --> 01:26:53.855
we're trying to make it an annual thing. Ragnar put it on last year, the Guns and Bitcoin crew.
1091
01:26:55.490 --> 01:27:01.830
It's in Austin, Texas. Originally, it was gonna be Portland. A lot of things happened. Switched to Austin last year last minute.
1092
01:27:03.035 --> 01:27:06.255
I was invited to come down and talk on,
1093
01:27:06.875 --> 01:27:07.775
using Bitcoin.
1094
01:27:08.555 --> 01:27:14.000
Now when I say guns and bit and this crew here, what you've gotta understand is that these are people that
1095
01:27:14.380 --> 01:27:18.595
are not at all interested in the, you know, number go up tech,
1096
01:27:19.555 --> 01:27:26.455
inflation resistance, or what if they they don't care. I'm not about this. Yeah. These are people that are using Bitcoin
1097
01:27:27.010 --> 01:27:31.110
because they have to. They don't care that it's cool tech. They don't care
1098
01:27:31.730 --> 01:27:33.350
care that it prevent wealth.
1099
01:27:35.650 --> 01:27:36.135
They have
1100
01:27:40.934 --> 01:27:46.020
She's being censored. They present it. Yeah. In in addition to that, they also need privacy.
1101
01:27:47.840 --> 01:27:48.820
They have not You
1102
01:27:49.360 --> 01:27:54.395
1103
01:27:55.255 --> 01:27:56.315
1104
01:27:56.695 --> 01:27:57.735
sorry. Let me,
1105
01:27:58.280 --> 01:28:08.185
go back a little bit. But these are guys that are using it to avoid censorship. It's not because they think the tech is cool or anything. Wait. So so this is one of the reasons why I consider you a close friend.
1106
01:28:09.065 --> 01:28:15.225
1107
01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:20.340
not in the show notes. I have the link on the fucking display if you're watching this live. It's guns
1108
01:28:21.120 --> 01:28:21.860
and bitcoin.com.
1109
01:28:23.335 --> 01:28:26.715
Ian. And and you can see the event there. It's gonna be in Austin,
1110
01:28:27.574 --> 01:28:28.315
in April.
1111
01:28:29.094 --> 01:28:33.040
Hopefully, I will be able to make it. I am trying to, but it's a weird
1112
01:28:33.500 --> 01:28:34.719
year. But, anyway,
1113
01:28:35.260 --> 01:28:42.375
what Diverter mentioned was censorship resistance versus number go up. And one of the reasons why I like Diverter,
1114
01:28:43.635 --> 01:28:50.480
and why I consider him a close friend is is because I think we both agree that you can't remove the other from
1115
01:28:51.420 --> 01:28:55.040
from you're gonna have both. And there's we have compliance bros
1116
01:28:55.555 --> 01:28:59.335
that don't want the censorship resistance, and they're gonna have to fucking deal with it.
1117
01:28:59.635 --> 01:29:00.615
And we have,
1118
01:29:01.475 --> 01:29:03.095
censorship resistant bros
1119
01:29:03.620 --> 01:29:10.120
who think, you know, number should go sideways, and Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, and they're just gonna have to fucking deal with it.
1120
01:29:14.905 --> 01:29:18.925
Yeah. So so diverter I mean, you agree with me here. Do you not?
1121
01:29:20.140 --> 01:29:21.180
1122
01:29:22.140 --> 01:29:26.400
And, yes, there's something to be said, of course, just that, you know,
1123
01:29:26.860 --> 01:29:28.160
number go up is
1124
01:29:28.625 --> 01:29:32.724
what attracts the most eyes. I mean, you've got you've got what, you know, rappers,
1125
01:29:33.025 --> 01:29:37.900
Soulja Boy, and people on Twitter right now talking about buying Bitcoin on Robinhood, you know.
1126
01:29:38.280 --> 01:29:39.020
So, of
1127
01:29:39.400 --> 01:29:41.420
course, number go up, puts the eye on.
1128
01:29:42.200 --> 01:29:43.100
And, yes,
1129
01:29:43.755 --> 01:29:51.454
of course, you're gonna have some of those people that come in. They come in for number go up. They stay for number go up until it goes down,
1130
01:29:51.790 --> 01:29:55.570
and then they're gone in Bitcoin's a Ponzi and, you know, the rest is history.
1131
01:29:56.350 --> 01:29:57.570
Some of those people
1132
01:29:57.870 --> 01:30:01.250
will likely stay around. They'll fall down the rabbit hole.
1133
01:30:01.955 --> 01:30:04.135
They'll start learning about censorship resistance.
1134
01:30:05.075 --> 01:30:05.655
I think
1135
01:30:05.955 --> 01:30:10.455
so much of it is in how Bitcoin is initially presented to people,
1136
01:30:11.270 --> 01:30:13.530
how they perceive it from that point on.
1137
01:30:15.270 --> 01:30:19.130
But I would agree a 100% with you that you don't
1138
01:30:21.275 --> 01:30:22.015
get no
1139
01:30:22.555 --> 01:30:23.055
and
1140
01:30:23.515 --> 01:30:30.190
as much as I sometimes may hate to admit it, I think a lot of the resistance goes away if you don't get number go up.
1141
01:30:35.804 --> 01:30:38.945
1142
01:30:40.445 --> 01:30:44.680
1143
01:30:46.100 --> 01:30:49.960
I mean, like, I'm actually quite bullish on Bitcoin, and I always have been.
1144
01:30:50.825 --> 01:30:53.885
But I'm just bullish on it because I think that, you know,
1145
01:30:54.905 --> 01:30:55.805
we're still early.
1146
01:30:56.745 --> 01:31:06.715
There's still plenty of people that could use this and still don't know how to or not aware why they're aware enough of it. So I think that there's plenty of reason to be optimistic on price. And
1147
01:31:07.094 --> 01:31:09.355
I find price fundamentally boring, though.
1148
01:31:10.375 --> 01:31:13.994
I don't wanna talk about it with anyone, and I don't find anyone
1149
01:31:14.430 --> 01:31:23.810
that on Twitter that has anything useful to say about it at all. And I think they're they're runs a shower tent and they can't put their class. And whether it's a stop to flow thing or whether
1150
01:31:24.755 --> 01:31:26.775
handle. I think it's all nonsense. And,
1151
01:31:28.195 --> 01:31:35.140
1152
01:31:36.560 --> 01:31:37.700
1153
01:31:38.480 --> 01:31:40.005
I I think, though, that,
1154
01:31:40.965 --> 01:31:41.925
I think that that's
1155
01:31:43.605 --> 01:32:01.535
so I think people get bothered about potentially transaction cost. I mean, we're we're kind of, this there's a whole number of other kind of subjects that come in here. But I mean, put it put it this way is is that I don't think Bitcoin needs to be a reserve asset of companies or banks. I don't think it, you know, it needs to have the number of,
1156
01:32:02.735 --> 01:32:05.795
the US dollar value increase for it to retain its properties.
1157
01:32:06.430 --> 01:32:11.010
And I I think that it's quite fine for it to exist amongst a portion of the population
1158
01:32:11.710 --> 01:32:25.550
and the and for a portion of the population at a certain portion of time. You know, not everyone will need Bitcoin's properties on a daily basis. Some people will need it for a few years in their life. Some will use it as a small part of their life all their life. Others will use it
1159
01:32:26.030 --> 01:32:32.530
all the time in all their life. You know, it's, it very much you know, you take it as you need it. I think it will always be there for that purpose.
1160
01:32:33.915 --> 01:32:35.034
And I and I think,
1161
01:32:35.514 --> 01:32:40.494
you know, anyone that wants that mass adoption, you know, falls into kind of, in fact, fallacy,
1162
01:32:41.034 --> 01:32:44.880
of of thinking that a tool or something like that needs to be used all the time
1163
01:32:45.580 --> 01:32:51.440
there. And I don't think, you know, it not getting mass adoption affects the the price either. So I'm quite you know,
1164
01:32:52.045 --> 01:32:53.344
you know, my my you
1165
01:32:53.724 --> 01:33:11.375
know, my general feeling is to to not pay attention to your actual price and just come generalize a life perspective. You know, you should ideally be living within your means. So, you know, if, if you're saving more than you're spending, then, you know, whether price increase or decrease, your your stack should be going up higher. It's just personal responsibility.
1166
01:33:12.554 --> 01:33:13.695
1167
01:33:14.554 --> 01:33:16.155
the freak who wanted to let you know,
1168
01:33:16.940 --> 01:33:21.280
that you're talking about not caring about price while I have the price up on the live stream.
1169
01:33:22.700 --> 01:33:27.455
I just wanted to say to the freaks, that are watching, look at this fucking bisque bread.
1170
01:33:28.074 --> 01:33:31.330
This popped up, you know, the real price popped up,
1171
01:33:31.890 --> 01:33:38.950
while we were recording. I think it's pretty cool. We you can see I don't know if you noticed, but on the left side is the actual orders coming in,
1172
01:33:40.284 --> 01:33:42.705
and red is down and green is up.
1173
01:33:43.965 --> 01:33:45.505
So that that's pretty cool.
1174
01:33:46.125 --> 01:33:52.750
1175
01:33:53.690 --> 01:34:07.440
you know, if I see what I think is now the top drop there, and I'm not gonna you know, I mean, I mean, literally my, you know, my my day job is involved working in all the books. So, you know, I find this kind of stuff interesting from that perspective and this construction and,
1176
01:34:08.699 --> 01:34:09.360
you know,
1177
01:34:09.739 --> 01:34:23.480
I think it's more to the point is I'm not interested in the predictions. I'm not interested in the they get excited or the or the people that think it's their one last you know, their one big shot again about getting rich. For me, that weeks of desperation,
1178
01:34:23.860 --> 01:34:25.800
and it's it's a bit pathetic.
1179
01:34:26.260 --> 01:34:37.345
And so, you know, what it should be is is you've got a tool. If it goes up, then that's great. But ultimately, like, you know, it makes sense to be saving in this money because it's hard to, you know, sense that.
1180
01:34:37.725 --> 01:34:46.885
You know, what portion of your your wealth you're doing now. Obviously, it's up to you, but, you know, that that's kind of you know, I'm quite black and white on it in that state too.
1181
01:34:47.364 --> 01:34:51.864
1182
01:34:54.219 --> 01:35:00.800
you know, need corporate treasuries or need the compliance pro stuff. And and there's definitely Bitcoiners that are, like, actively
1183
01:35:01.100 --> 01:35:03.199
searching for it. Right? And they're petitioning,
1184
01:35:04.825 --> 01:35:07.165
corporations to store their treasury in Bitcoin.
1185
01:35:08.265 --> 01:35:09.245
From my perspective,
1186
01:35:10.505 --> 01:35:12.925
it has nothing to do with me needing that.
1187
01:35:13.320 --> 01:35:23.665
It has everything to do with them discovering Bitcoin just like I discovered Bitcoin, and they're gonna buy Bitcoin. Like, they're gonna buy Bitcoin, and and the beauty of Bitcoin is I can't stop them from buying Bitcoin.
1188
01:35:24.125 --> 01:35:25.905
Mhmm. I cannot sell them my Bitcoin,
1189
01:35:26.605 --> 01:35:30.145
and I have no intention of selling them my Bitcoin. They will never get my Bitcoin.
1190
01:35:31.380 --> 01:35:40.815
But, if if they wanna buy it, like, I don't blame them because who wouldn't want to buy this shit? Who wouldn't want to move over to a Bitcoin standard? Right? So
1191
01:35:41.275 --> 01:35:44.094
I so I don't look at it from, we don't need them,
1192
01:35:44.474 --> 01:35:48.520
but they're coming. They will come, and there's nothing we can do about it.
1193
01:35:48.820 --> 01:35:59.955
1194
01:36:00.335 --> 01:36:00.915
of Bitcoin
1195
01:36:01.980 --> 01:36:13.335
make it more suitable for the individual. Again, I I yeah. That's that's that's definitely from a personal opinion that I have, and I completely appreciate that someone managing a trade agreement may have an entirely different opinion.
1196
01:36:13.875 --> 01:36:16.295
But I would I would suggest that
1197
01:36:16.675 --> 01:36:21.500
that those looking at it, first as a treasury asset could find themselves,
1198
01:36:22.360 --> 01:36:27.720
in a bit of a difficult situation in the future. So, I mean, obviously, like, someone like kind of Michael Taylor type,
1199
01:36:28.985 --> 01:36:37.245
would be laughing at me right now for saying that because on a US dollar basis, I mean, his trades would have gone up hugely, enormously. It's done very well.
1200
01:36:38.690 --> 01:36:45.190
And I think it remains to be seen still what kind of trade that will be for MicroStrategy and how well that work because
1201
01:36:45.575 --> 01:36:47.195
that's a public asset.
1202
01:36:47.655 --> 01:36:49.095
What does that look like if,
1203
01:36:50.055 --> 01:36:53.115
Nasdaq or whoever else my strategy is listed,
1204
01:36:53.495 --> 01:36:54.715
release rules on
1205
01:36:55.090 --> 01:36:55.830
holdings limitations
1206
01:36:56.290 --> 01:37:01.430
in virtual currencies, that type of thing. What happens if corporations under Biden administration
1207
01:37:02.205 --> 01:37:06.045
get additional taxes and then companies like those are forced to,
1208
01:37:06.445 --> 01:37:06.765
essentially,
1209
01:37:09.530 --> 01:37:10.970
get rid of assets like that.
1210
01:37:11.690 --> 01:37:17.230
How, you know, how much is that number go up tech at that point, for those companies when it's held publicly
1211
01:37:17.610 --> 01:37:20.014
and and in the face of
1212
01:37:20.875 --> 01:37:22.415
of of of regulators
1213
01:37:22.795 --> 01:37:23.295
and,
1214
01:37:24.155 --> 01:37:31.050
and and, you know, politicians who actually see it as now right rejection of their money and are insulted by that.
1215
01:37:31.750 --> 01:37:39.585
You know, I think those rule that's played whereas I think just the innate properties of Bitcoin mean that you holding that privately and or dish form of digital cash
1216
01:37:40.125 --> 01:37:42.700
means it would probably suit your use case better,
1217
01:37:43.100 --> 01:37:45.120
overall, but this is super early days.
1218
01:37:46.860 --> 01:37:47.360
1219
01:37:52.005 --> 01:37:53.704
1220
01:37:54.804 --> 01:37:55.465
1221
01:37:56.244 --> 01:37:56.744
like,
1222
01:37:57.680 --> 01:38:02.820
Max is right on the he he's right on the nose here. There's no there's no question about it.
1223
01:38:03.280 --> 01:38:04.020
You're also
1224
01:38:04.375 --> 01:38:08.795
a 100% correct in saying that, you know, this is the whole beauty of it is the permissionlessness.
1225
01:38:10.855 --> 01:38:14.090
If you wanna buy Bitcoin, you can buy Bitcoin. I can't stop you. I don't want
1226
01:38:14.650 --> 01:38:15.389
to stop
1227
01:38:15.849 --> 01:38:19.710
you. But, you know, we do have to kinda stay on our toes about,
1228
01:38:20.969 --> 01:38:25.025
the people that come in with these large swaths of Bitcoin like the micro strategies,
1229
01:38:25.805 --> 01:38:28.145
and then begin trying to steer
1230
01:38:28.605 --> 01:38:29.425
this narrative
1231
01:38:30.620 --> 01:38:31.680
towards their direction,
1232
01:38:32.620 --> 01:38:36.719
the privacy and the censorship resistance because I think a lot of them view that
1233
01:38:37.020 --> 01:38:37.920
as a hurdle,
1234
01:38:39.335 --> 01:38:40.695
to never go up.
1235
01:38:41.415 --> 01:38:46.475
I think they're afraid that if there is too much privacy or too much censorship resistance,
1236
01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:47.900
that the government,
1237
01:38:48.760 --> 01:38:52.940
will be more compelled to come in and try to shut this thing down and and hinder,
1238
01:38:53.719 --> 01:38:55.980
the increase in US dollar value.
1239
01:38:57.205 --> 01:38:58.505
So it's you know,
1240
01:38:58.805 --> 01:39:00.985
what are you gonna do? You're not gonna stop them.
1241
01:39:03.445 --> 01:39:05.070
Which is, you know,
1242
01:39:05.450 --> 01:39:10.750
speak our minds about what's important, teach people about the things that are important, but at the same time,
1243
01:39:11.130 --> 01:39:13.150
you know, it it's gonna be what it is.
1244
01:39:17.265 --> 01:39:20.245
1245
01:39:22.429 --> 01:39:23.090
I think,
1246
01:39:23.789 --> 01:39:25.650
to, like, clean the dirty a little bit,
1247
01:39:26.909 --> 01:39:30.449
all the all the freaks who are listening, you should consider using Bisq.
1248
01:39:31.375 --> 01:39:33.555
Bisq is a a peer to peer marketplace,
1249
01:39:36.094 --> 01:39:40.275
where you connect directly with other Bitcoiners to buy and sell Bitcoin.
1250
01:39:40.890 --> 01:39:43.470
Here's a quick little video of what Bisk is.
1251
01:39:45.450 --> 01:39:47.790
1252
01:39:48.475 --> 01:39:50.574
They collect your personal information
1253
01:39:51.435 --> 01:39:53.215
and jeopardize your privacy.
1254
01:39:54.635 --> 01:39:55.135
KYC
1255
01:39:55.594 --> 01:39:57.295
is the illicit activity.
1256
01:39:58.040 --> 01:39:58.540
This
1257
01:39:59.560 --> 01:40:00.620
is open source.
1258
01:40:01.080 --> 01:40:03.020
It does not collect user data.
1259
01:40:03.640 --> 01:40:05.580
You keep your private keys,
1260
01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:11.405
create or take to trade peer to peer, and keep your Bitcoin private and secure.
1261
01:40:19.330 --> 01:40:21.970
1262
01:40:23.745 --> 01:40:30.805
I don't know if this has to be said, but, you know, we're very deep in here. I mean, it's not a coincidence that Cielo Dispatch does not have any sponsors.
1263
01:40:31.610 --> 01:40:33.550
Okay. Bisc is
1264
01:40:34.889 --> 01:40:37.869
a a personal love of mine. I think it's a very important project.
1265
01:40:38.329 --> 01:40:40.190
I think it's important that we discuss,
1266
01:40:41.075 --> 01:40:44.935
you know, why BISK is important. And someone mentioned in the comments,
1267
01:40:47.075 --> 01:40:56.260
issues if you're using Zelle or using a bank as your payment processor for Bisc. So, let let's dive into this a little bit. Who wants to start?
1268
01:40:57.525 --> 01:40:58.665
1269
01:40:59.205 --> 01:41:02.585
1270
01:41:04.260 --> 01:41:05.800
The comment I saw earlier,
1271
01:41:06.180 --> 01:41:08.600
I believe, that we're referring to talking about
1272
01:41:09.380 --> 01:41:13.320
a possible honeypot if, you know, law enforcement is, your counterparty.
1273
01:41:14.565 --> 01:41:16.505
And and, you know, sure. Yes.
1274
01:41:17.845 --> 01:41:22.665
Which is, you know, basically, the same risk you run on any anonymous or anonymized network.
1275
01:41:23.650 --> 01:41:29.110
Yeah. The other person you're talking to could be logging everything you said, logging on your all of your data.
1276
01:41:29.969 --> 01:41:32.389
So the best that you can do is limit that,
1277
01:41:32.795 --> 01:41:36.335
as much as possible and determine based on your threat model
1278
01:41:36.795 --> 01:41:38.415
whether or not you should use,
1279
01:41:38.875 --> 01:41:39.935
a different source.
1280
01:41:40.910 --> 01:41:42.290
When you're talking about this,
1281
01:41:43.950 --> 01:41:49.090
it's totally different than using one of these other centralized exchanges like a Kraken, for example.
1282
01:41:51.395 --> 01:41:57.175
Just there is no I I press a button. I make a trade. I've got the other you know, when you're dealing in cash.
1283
01:41:58.210 --> 01:42:00.310
You may have to wait days on a regular.
1284
01:42:01.970 --> 01:42:03.030
Or, you know, wait
1285
01:42:03.410 --> 01:42:08.435
you may have to wait hours on even one of the quick transactions. I mean, you know, one of those Zelle transactions.
1286
01:42:08.895 --> 01:42:10.995
So all this stuff is,
1287
01:42:11.375 --> 01:42:14.595
as it always comes down to, convenience trade offs.
1288
01:42:15.600 --> 01:42:18.900
The actual exchange itself of BISC
1289
01:42:19.440 --> 01:42:22.900
is is not gonna log your personal identifiable
1290
01:42:23.200 --> 01:42:23.700
information.
1291
01:42:24.265 --> 01:42:32.125
That's a huge win. Alright? Does that mean is it perfect? Of course, it's not perfect. But this is one of those things where, especially in privacy,
1292
01:42:32.550 --> 01:42:46.755
you cannot let, you know, perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because it's not a 100% anonymous and perfect and you can't be sure that the person you're trading with is not law enforcement. That doesn't mean it's not a huge step forward over handing over
1293
01:42:48.030 --> 01:42:53.730
all of your to be able to buy a little Bitcoin to taking a chance on your counterparty, your direct counterparty,
1294
01:42:54.485 --> 01:42:59.945
having some of that information, and then you actually storing everything locally on your computer. So
1295
01:43:00.485 --> 01:43:02.265
I'm a huge proponent of disk.
1296
01:43:03.860 --> 01:43:07.400
It still has kinks. It still has problems. It's gonna need work.
1297
01:43:08.420 --> 01:43:08.920
But
1298
01:43:10.165 --> 01:43:10.665
when,
1299
01:43:11.045 --> 01:43:12.665
the time comes that
1300
01:43:13.125 --> 01:43:19.330
everyone gets pushed, because that's what's gonna have to happen as as is always, just like with WhatsApp here.
1301
01:43:20.350 --> 01:43:23.970
When when we get pushed and we get that big censorship overreach,
1302
01:43:24.670 --> 01:43:26.370
people are gonna start to realize,
1303
01:43:26.895 --> 01:43:33.635
how important projects like that really are. So I I really, hope that people start playing around with it now,
1304
01:43:34.094 --> 01:43:36.275
as opposed to trying to run catch up.
1305
01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:42.020
1306
01:43:43.280 --> 01:43:45.540
1307
01:43:46.155 --> 01:43:50.495
I don't know. I'll go risk getting chucked off your show here, but, I actually don't like this.
1308
01:43:50.875 --> 01:43:53.215
Oh, kick them off. As a as a tool. Yeah.
1309
01:43:53.995 --> 01:43:56.190
But, yeah, I it's hugely important,
1310
01:43:56.730 --> 01:44:03.695
and absolutely, it's, like, probably one of the most important projects going in the Bitcoin space at the moment. I just don't personally like it myself.
1311
01:44:04.635 --> 01:44:07.295
And although it's my own fault, but it's also partly
1312
01:44:07.675 --> 01:44:09.695
due to where I'm based at the moment.
1313
01:44:10.330 --> 01:44:10.830
And
1314
01:44:11.210 --> 01:44:29.395
so my kind of issues, like, I've actually had this on my laptop for years, like, back when it was Bitsquare or something like that. And I can honestly tell you every time I have to find Bitsquare Bitsquare was a better name. Yeah. I think so as well. Yeah. I've got a logo as well. I seem to remember. But, like, every time I fix it up, I can't be bothered to use it because,
1315
01:44:29.870 --> 01:44:37.090
I hate the architecture of the SPV. I hate how it I mean, maybe I'm being too cheap and my laptop's rubbish, but, like, it takes
1316
01:44:38.495 --> 01:44:40.755
ages to sing so they can use it off.
1317
01:44:41.695 --> 01:44:43.315
I find it awkward,
1318
01:44:44.175 --> 01:44:46.995
to use, and so I I just don't bother.
1319
01:44:47.310 --> 01:44:50.929
That being said, like, that's not to say I don't think it's a good tool.
1320
01:44:51.469 --> 01:44:53.090
It's just not really what I like.
1321
01:44:54.595 --> 01:45:02.455
Personally speaking, and I think this should be a consideration for anyone that's in a similar position to me. So I think in, like, a big city where you're well connected
1322
01:45:02.915 --> 01:45:03.415
is
1323
01:45:04.320 --> 01:45:06.740
actually try and do trades more in person.
1324
01:45:07.280 --> 01:45:09.700
And they're not as hard as the you need as
1325
01:45:10.160 --> 01:45:11.060
as they sound.
1326
01:45:12.355 --> 01:45:16.054
You know, I I've got guys I know through our local Bitcoin meetup,
1327
01:45:16.594 --> 01:45:17.574
that do OTC.
1328
01:45:18.275 --> 01:45:21.635
We there's actually not the one I'm I'm not actually part of it.
1329
01:45:22.120 --> 01:45:31.784
I'm not comfortable, you know, having my personal details on it, but there's actually a, like, a large Telegram group for OTC in Singapore, and people just do massive trades on that.
1330
01:45:32.344 --> 01:45:35.244
And there's a it's moderated. It's carefully done.
1331
01:45:35.545 --> 01:45:42.710
And when you're living in a city specifically like this, which is pretty safe from a physical perspective, you don't have to worry about getting mugged or anything like that.
1332
01:45:43.330 --> 01:45:46.070
People do do just cash trades of, like, a $100,
1333
01:45:46.475 --> 01:45:47.295
200 grand.
1334
01:45:47.755 --> 01:45:51.614
Right? Yeah. If you're meeting up in the street and doing that with Bitcoin,
1335
01:45:51.995 --> 01:45:55.375
and it's pretty common here to do that. And there's far more liquidity
1336
01:45:56.550 --> 01:46:03.610
on there than something like this. And that's even with kind of popular pairs. You know, even if you were to get out of an SGP pair and use, like, EuroGP,
1337
01:46:04.215 --> 01:46:06.074
I think you'd get a better spread,
1338
01:46:06.534 --> 01:46:21.675
going for an OTC trader here. And, again, like, that stuff scales pretty well. Like, if you wanna do small trades and you're not willing to do, like, a trade, like, 20 grand, then use someone that's also connected to an agency trade and do that. So I I actually, you know, we're pretty good with options in Singapore
1339
01:46:22.295 --> 01:46:25.595
on a kind of, you know, face to face basis. And I think culturally,
1340
01:46:27.230 --> 01:46:32.770
whilst it's pretty advanced as a country in terms of a lot of, like, Fintech type apps and digital payments,
1341
01:46:33.165 --> 01:46:39.985
There's certain aspects of it. There's certain industries here that are heavily cash based, and people are used to using cash in certain,
1342
01:46:40.525 --> 01:46:41.825
for certain types of payments.
1343
01:46:43.010 --> 01:46:57.225
And therefore, it's still part of the big part of culture here. We've been comfortable with that. So, for that reason, there's never really been a reason for me to be kind of forced into using this. There's a Biz trader that hates you out there. He just sent Biz Moonbound. It's showing a 4545
1344
01:46:58.245 --> 01:46:59.465
1345
01:47:00.470 --> 01:47:05.610
But also, like, that's also kind of like He's giving you he's giving you the incentive to use Bisq, bro.
1346
01:47:05.910 --> 01:47:08.135
1347
01:47:08.775 --> 01:47:12.155
this is the other thing as well. I mean, we can actually see here already, like,
1348
01:47:12.775 --> 01:47:23.460
I mean, actually, how difficult is it for my biscuits to use when you've got, a mid price like that being so skewed. Like, in in Singapore, it's actually not unusual for people to be buying Tethers directly.
1349
01:47:24.385 --> 01:47:26.804
So they'll do SGD to USD Tether,
1350
01:47:27.585 --> 01:47:30.164
and then then they can take that to some exchange,
1351
01:47:30.784 --> 01:47:36.740
and then, you know, get the price they want to, later, and that can be done with absolutely minimal KYC.
1352
01:47:37.360 --> 01:47:37.860
So
1353
01:47:38.480 --> 01:47:40.980
yeah. So you kind of you know, like, on paper,
1354
01:47:41.435 --> 01:47:47.855
it's very easy and you see it on Twitter. People will say, oh, you know, you gotta use Bisc or, you know, use Huddle Huddle. But actually, like,
1355
01:47:48.690 --> 01:48:03.825
when you actually get on the street and see how things are done, like, especially in Asia, like, it's it you know, again, this is very geographically dependent, but it can kinda No. It's not geographically dependent. Well, first of all, I I wanna do a shout out to SM again. He gets a second shout out for this episode.
1356
01:48:04.285 --> 01:48:04.785
1357
01:48:05.520 --> 01:48:08.020
learn from him, and you will get a shout out.
1358
01:48:08.960 --> 01:48:21.155
I like this idea that people watching Citadel Dispatch are buying on bisque, and they just are getting bullish and they're buying. And I I I kinda like this concept. Like, I hope that for future Citadel Dispatches, you know, this is only episode 5.
1359
01:48:21.520 --> 01:48:25.540
For future episodes, like, it'd be funny if if every Tuesday,
1360
01:48:26.080 --> 01:48:27.780
big Bisc pumped because,
1361
01:48:28.640 --> 01:48:37.445
people were just market buying on Bisc and and they're watching sort of the dispatch at the same time. And now they're not listening to us. They're focusing on the price, you know, all the all the Okay.
1362
01:48:37.985 --> 01:48:41.910
Max Max, we're just having some fun. Okay? We're just having some fun.
1363
01:48:42.610 --> 01:48:43.750
I agree with you
1364
01:48:44.130 --> 01:48:48.630
from Zen. 1 Bitcoin is 1 Bitcoin. 1 sat is 1 sat. It doesn't matter.
1365
01:48:49.795 --> 01:48:56.855
But at the same time, it is the ultimate adoption stat, and I don't think anyone can deny we're trying to build a free market here,
1366
01:48:57.510 --> 01:49:05.675
and a free market is gonna price a lot of things and a lot of things, you know. And one day, this will turn to sats per dollar because everything will be priced in sats. But until
1367
01:49:06.055 --> 01:49:14.395
then, you know, it's priced in dollars because that is the global standard. To people saying to Max that this idea that a black market type of,
1368
01:49:15.630 --> 01:49:18.929
gray market type of of cash deals cannot happen,
1369
01:49:19.789 --> 01:49:22.530
you're all full of shit. If you've gone out and bought weed,
1370
01:49:22.954 --> 01:49:28.815
you participated in the same exact type of environment, and I expect this to happen with Bitcoin as well.
1371
01:49:30.300 --> 01:49:32.480
I don't expect you to go out and buy $200,000
1372
01:49:33.020 --> 01:49:37.520
worth of weed though, which is kind of what Max insinuated. I want people to realize
1373
01:49:37.975 --> 01:49:43.515
that we had we had a Hong Kong trader recently who got fucked because she was trying to buy
1374
01:49:44.055 --> 01:49:44.555
$400,000
1375
01:49:45.095 --> 01:49:45.915
worth of Bitcoin.
1376
01:49:46.350 --> 01:49:52.690
Yeah. Which, by the way, people were like, that's ridiculous. Why would you try and buy a half $1,000,000 worth of Bitcoin? That's that's
1377
01:49:53.469 --> 01:49:54.210
10 Bitcoin.
1378
01:49:54.909 --> 01:49:59.244
Yep. It's like that's crazy. Like, she was just trying to buy 10 Bitcoin.
1379
01:49:59.545 --> 01:50:02.900
She got into trouble. So try and keep your amounts lower than that.
1380
01:50:04.179 --> 01:50:04.679
1381
01:50:06.500 --> 01:50:11.320
Well, you know, it's one of those things with this. It's it's one of those, you know, love hate things.
1382
01:50:12.155 --> 01:50:15.695
As Max, you know, points out, you know, on paper, of course, you know, everyone,
1383
01:50:16.075 --> 01:50:20.290
yes, use this. Then when you go to actually using it, you know, maybe
1384
01:50:20.590 --> 01:50:23.570
the area that you live in, you might not find an offer
1385
01:50:23.950 --> 01:50:26.130
ever. You know, you you may hit,
1386
01:50:26.804 --> 01:50:29.385
we may hit a dip in the price and the liquidity
1387
01:50:29.764 --> 01:50:35.545
just is gone. It drives all the way up, and the only offer that is on there is for a 40% markup.
1388
01:50:36.960 --> 01:50:41.860
So, you know, these these are the the things that don't get talked about too much.
1389
01:50:42.639 --> 01:50:46.905
You know, everybody we we'd like to paint a nice rosy picture of this.
1390
01:50:47.205 --> 01:50:54.469
Censorship resistant. You know, there's no KYC. All that good stuff. Yes. It's great. But, you know, there's some obvious trade offs. There's some obvious downside
1391
01:50:55.250 --> 01:50:56.310
to for me,
1392
01:50:57.330 --> 01:50:59.830
you know, living in in the US especially
1393
01:51:00.235 --> 01:51:03.615
and dealing in some of the communities that I like to run-in,
1394
01:51:06.235 --> 01:51:11.660
this trade off is an acceptable one for me because what's unacceptable for me
1395
01:51:13.720 --> 01:51:14.620
is identity
1396
01:51:15.265 --> 01:51:17.365
to be able to obtain some Bitcoin,
1397
01:51:18.065 --> 01:51:20.645
especially when we've been into situations like COVID,
1398
01:51:21.105 --> 01:51:26.909
where we can't necessarily go out and mingle and meet other people and establish connections
1399
01:51:27.530 --> 01:51:31.949
and things of that nature. It's very important for us to have some sort of online,
1400
01:51:32.730 --> 01:51:33.230
avenue
1401
01:51:33.585 --> 01:51:37.925
for people to be able to attain Bitcoin without doing KYC. Now
1402
01:51:38.385 --> 01:51:39.685
I, myself, also,
1403
01:51:40.065 --> 01:51:42.565
like to do some mining. I mine personally.
1404
01:51:43.830 --> 01:51:45.530
That's not an option for everyone.
1405
01:51:45.910 --> 01:51:46.410
So
1406
01:51:46.790 --> 01:52:01.345
it's one of those things where, yes, I'm gonna say, you know, use this. Use this. Everybody use this. Everybody's not gonna use this. Everybody probably can't use this. But the idea of this is is what's the most important to me.
1407
01:52:01.720 --> 01:52:05.980
1408
01:52:06.840 --> 01:52:13.145
Just mine. Just mine. I wanna I wanna talk about this. I wanna talk about this because this is something that that Bitcoiners
1409
01:52:13.525 --> 01:52:14.905
do not talk about enough.
1410
01:52:15.845 --> 01:52:21.449
When I first got into Bitcoin, people said to me, don't mind. Not worth it. You're not a professional miner.
1411
01:52:22.469 --> 01:52:26.409
I told them to go fuck themselves. I like learning from my mistakes.
1412
01:52:27.105 --> 01:52:32.245
So I attempted to mine. The first attempt was cloud mining. Do not cloud mine.
1413
01:52:33.105 --> 01:52:48.975
That is a horrible idea. You will lose your money. I promise you if they could mine and make a profit, they would do it. They sold you that risk instead, and they will scam you out of your money. But then I decided to buy a couple ASICs and mine for myself.
1414
01:52:50.475 --> 01:52:53.375
That is really where Bitcoin is a game changer,
1415
01:52:55.270 --> 01:52:55.770
tangibly.
1416
01:52:56.790 --> 01:53:01.370
Let's talk about this for a second. This idea that you can connect to power and Internet,
1417
01:53:01.725 --> 01:53:06.545
and you can receive money through the Internet with 0 k y c.
1418
01:53:07.405 --> 01:53:10.465
I think people don't realize and respect this enough.
1419
01:53:10.929 --> 01:53:11.510
I think
1420
01:53:11.889 --> 01:53:16.289
what we will see in the next 5, 10 years is as ASIC lifestyle
1421
01:53:16.610 --> 01:53:17.590
life cycles
1422
01:53:18.215 --> 01:53:23.355
level out, and and you buy an ASIC, and they just it just becomes it stays profitable for years.
1423
01:53:24.295 --> 01:53:25.435
Doesn't get outdated.
1424
01:53:26.135 --> 01:53:27.515
We will see it distribute
1425
01:53:28.010 --> 01:53:28.510
because
1426
01:53:28.890 --> 01:53:32.510
people will be willing to mine for loss. Would you agree, diverter? And
1427
01:53:32.890 --> 01:53:46.440
show us your guides, you know, just fucking hit us with, why why should we mine to achieve no KYC Bitcoin? Hit us with it. First of all, just mine, man. I mean, it's so simple. I don't understand why we have to explain it.
1428
01:53:48.179 --> 01:53:48.679
1429
01:53:49.940 --> 01:53:52.119
first of all, once you said cloud mining,
1430
01:53:53.835 --> 01:54:01.534
1431
01:54:02.200 --> 01:54:04.040
1432
01:54:04.840 --> 01:54:10.300
But you're a 100% right that that there's this narrative, and and it's so funny to me because
1433
01:54:10.765 --> 01:54:13.585
there in all the other areas of Bitcoin,
1434
01:54:14.045 --> 01:54:16.864
the the main thing pushed is don't trust, verify.
1435
01:54:17.165 --> 01:54:20.820
You can do all this yourself. You can host your own wallet, you know, unhosted
1436
01:54:21.280 --> 01:54:26.500
hosted wallets, whatever. You can do all this stuff yourself. You can run your own node and all that, and then
1437
01:54:27.415 --> 01:54:30.875
when we get to no. No. No. Leave that to the big guy.
1438
01:54:31.975 --> 01:54:32.475
Alright?
1439
01:54:33.094 --> 01:54:35.550
That's not profitable. Don't even try it.
1440
01:54:36.250 --> 01:54:38.670
And so so many people are turned off on it.
1441
01:54:39.210 --> 01:54:41.465
That's not necessarily the case. It's a very personalized
1442
01:54:48.930 --> 01:54:51.030
at a loss at a, you know,
1443
01:54:52.690 --> 01:54:58.885
a loss they can handle. Let me let me put it like that. You're not gonna mind, at a, you know, losing a 100%. I wouldn't
1444
01:54:59.345 --> 01:55:00.965
1445
01:55:01.985 --> 01:55:05.125
1446
01:55:05.985 --> 01:55:06.805
they they
1447
01:55:08.640 --> 01:55:10.480
they really changed nines anymore.
1448
01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:13.460
So it's one of the things that the 3 gun community
1449
01:55:13.840 --> 01:55:18.545
runs into as well. Everybody still feels like we're in 2013 3 d gun tech,
1450
01:55:20.365 --> 01:55:27.400
and we're not. They don't. An s nine doesn't get you 13 and a half terahash at, you know, 1400 watts used anymore.
1451
01:55:28.260 --> 01:55:29.639
We're beyond that. So
1452
01:55:29.940 --> 01:55:31.400
that's why I wrote,
1453
01:55:31.815 --> 01:55:32.955
mining for the street.
1454
01:55:34.055 --> 01:55:39.435
The link has been shared a few times. It's still on my, key base public folder at
1455
01:55:41.730 --> 01:55:49.270
whatever the the word of vtc slash mining for the streets, whatever that is on my public folder. It's escaping me right now.
1456
01:55:49.825 --> 01:55:52.005
But the point of that was look for it?
1457
01:55:52.705 --> 01:55:53.425
I'm sorry.
1458
01:55:53.745 --> 01:55:54.245
Keybase.pub.
1459
01:55:54.785 --> 01:55:55.925
Is that it? Keybase.pub/diverter.
1460
01:55:57.505 --> 01:55:58.005
1461
01:55:58.670 --> 01:56:03.090
/ diverter what's your name? Diverter what? B t c. B t c.
1462
01:56:03.790 --> 01:56:07.625
I got you. Yeah. I found it. I found it. Okay.
1463
01:56:08.485 --> 01:56:09.144
1464
01:56:09.764 --> 01:56:10.565
that through
1465
01:56:10.965 --> 01:56:18.490
the point of that is just getting across that that this may be something that you should look into, and I know a couple of people have actually done it.
1466
01:56:19.430 --> 01:56:19.930
There
1467
01:56:20.310 --> 01:56:21.450
is a thriving,
1468
01:56:22.630 --> 01:56:23.130
aftermarket
1469
01:56:24.505 --> 01:56:25.005
for,
1470
01:56:25.625 --> 01:56:31.005
for ASICs, especially on Telegram, the one we talked about earlier. Telegram has some terrific groups
1471
01:56:31.510 --> 01:56:33.370
who are verified ASIC resellers,
1472
01:56:33.910 --> 01:56:36.650
where they basically do KYC on themselves
1473
01:56:37.190 --> 01:56:42.165
so that they are listed as a verified seller to try to, you know, keep you from getting scammed
1474
01:56:42.625 --> 01:56:46.485
so they help you out that way. That way, you're not handing over all of your information
1475
01:56:47.000 --> 01:56:51.019
to, to a bit main or a Chinese company who wants to do that.
1476
01:56:51.800 --> 01:56:57.245
So you can get an ASIC without going through you know, handing over too much of your identity.
1477
01:56:58.185 --> 01:56:58.685
And
1478
01:56:59.065 --> 01:56:59.804
when you
1479
01:57:00.425 --> 01:57:02.045
plug these things to your house,
1480
01:57:02.585 --> 01:57:05.680
first the first thing you're gonna wanna do is get rid of any
1481
01:57:06.080 --> 01:57:08.020
girlfriend or wife or child,
1482
01:57:09.760 --> 01:57:12.500
that you may have. That's gonna be the first thing to go
1483
01:57:13.925 --> 01:57:16.105
because these things are loud and they're hot.
1484
01:57:16.485 --> 01:57:21.510
Alright? But those are both so loud. They're so loud. And they're so hot.
1485
01:57:21.989 --> 01:57:25.929
1486
01:57:26.789 --> 01:57:29.449
1487
01:57:30.625 --> 01:57:31.125
manageable.
1488
01:57:33.025 --> 01:57:37.845
Once you do that, there's some screenshot I put on there. You know, I I I've been running,
1489
01:57:38.830 --> 01:57:39.730
the s 17,
1490
01:57:40.670 --> 01:57:43.330
model, s 17 pro model, 50 terahertz.
1491
01:57:44.430 --> 01:57:46.050
I run them in Coleman coolers.
1492
01:57:46.445 --> 01:57:51.585
Alright? I I took a day. I took a drill. I made some terrible looking,
1493
01:57:53.005 --> 01:57:54.065
coolers for
1494
01:57:54.700 --> 01:57:57.840
sound you know, to to keep my sound from being so bad.
1495
01:57:58.220 --> 01:58:07.255
I threw them in these Coleman coolers, cut a couple holes in the side, threw some ducting in there where I can get some cool air in and some hot air out, and suddenly, it's not so bad.
1496
01:58:08.520 --> 01:58:10.059
So it's a little bit of work,
1497
01:58:10.520 --> 01:58:12.460
to to get this done if
1498
01:58:13.239 --> 01:58:14.539
you don't have special
1499
01:58:15.545 --> 01:58:16.045
areas.
1500
01:58:17.144 --> 01:58:19.005
But if you're in the US, your average,
1501
01:58:20.105 --> 01:58:23.565
your average rate for electricity is somewhere around 12 to 13¢
1502
01:58:24.460 --> 01:58:26.320
on the kilowatt hour. Mine's higher.
1503
01:58:27.020 --> 01:58:30.560
Yeah. Depending on your state. So, you know, some states
1504
01:58:31.420 --> 01:58:33.040
are quiet. They actually may have,
1505
01:58:33.555 --> 01:58:35.415
you know, 8¢, 9¢,
1506
01:58:36.355 --> 01:58:40.535
which is definitely manageable. When you're looking at one of these newer generation miners,
1507
01:58:41.489 --> 01:58:46.310
it's early in this in their life cycle. They're just not coming out. So you're probably
1508
01:58:46.690 --> 01:58:47.830
hopefully, we don't
1509
01:58:48.325 --> 01:58:51.065
know yet on what we're looking at with older models.
1510
01:58:51.445 --> 01:58:53.945
Probably gonna be able to get 4 to 5 years,
1511
01:58:54.645 --> 01:58:55.145
work
1512
01:58:55.579 --> 01:58:58.079
1513
01:58:59.500 --> 01:59:05.795
Let's talk about this for a second. Right? Like, I'd be willing to fucking take I would I would eat a fucking 25%
1514
01:59:06.175 --> 01:59:08.275
premium for KYC free Bitcoin.
1515
01:59:09.135 --> 01:59:11.510
1516
01:59:12.469 --> 01:59:14.809
on on disk or ATMs or whatever.
1517
01:59:16.070 --> 01:59:18.250
But, you know, the problem you run into
1518
01:59:18.710 --> 01:59:21.289
with mining at a total loss
1519
01:59:22.055 --> 01:59:22.555
is,
1520
01:59:23.335 --> 01:59:25.275
your return on your initial investment.
1521
01:59:25.735 --> 01:59:31.420
Now, you know, whenever you're gonna go buy one of these newer generation miners, you're gonna put out a couple
1522
01:59:31.720 --> 01:59:32.220
$1,000.
1523
01:59:33.240 --> 01:59:39.740
So now if you're okay with never getting that back, then sure, you can mine at a perpetual loss.
1524
01:59:41.695 --> 01:59:42.195
But
1525
01:59:42.655 --> 01:59:50.280
if you are, you know, in a situation where you do kinda wanna look to get that money back, there's still options open to you,
1526
01:59:51.140 --> 01:59:53.960
outside of even if you can't run it in your house.
1527
01:59:54.420 --> 02:00:00.945
1 of the guys that we deal with a lot in the the samurai groups, you know, he's got some miners that are at a hosting facility,
1528
02:00:02.205 --> 02:00:04.510
just a little ways down from me, And
1529
02:00:05.130 --> 02:00:06.429
he's doing great there.
1530
02:00:07.210 --> 02:00:07.710
Now
1531
02:00:08.650 --> 02:00:10.269
of not not your
1532
02:00:11.465 --> 02:00:19.540
6 and 9, or I guess, you know, if he he's they're in somebody else's warehouse. So, yes, he has to Yeah. That sounds kinda shit cornery to me. Yeah.
1533
02:00:20.000 --> 02:00:21.940
They they won't unplug it and run off.
1534
02:00:24.400 --> 02:00:29.095
The point that I'm getting at is is this stuff tends to get immediately discounted
1535
02:00:29.715 --> 02:00:32.215
as not profitable. Whereas, as you said,
1536
02:00:32.595 --> 02:00:38.179
if you're able to have an electricity rate somewhere in the area and you don't have to pay
1537
02:00:40.159 --> 02:00:42.099
you know, s nines or s
1538
02:00:42.475 --> 02:00:42.975
17
1539
02:00:44.235 --> 02:00:46.815
or you can run them at, you know, 10
1540
02:00:48.475 --> 02:00:49.455
15, 20
1541
02:00:49.869 --> 02:00:53.650
percent loss for all of your information to these centralized images.
1542
02:00:54.829 --> 02:00:55.329
And
1543
02:00:56.590 --> 02:00:57.405
you've got,
1544
02:00:57.724 --> 02:00:59.105
them come to your wallet.
1545
02:01:00.204 --> 02:01:06.340
Every couple weeks, you'll get a a a little download a bit more. The ultimate it's the ultimate stacking sets.
1546
02:01:06.900 --> 02:01:19.275
1547
02:01:20.695 --> 02:01:25.195
1548
02:01:26.210 --> 02:01:26.710
DCA
1549
02:01:27.330 --> 02:01:34.630
stacking set is all the rage right now. Stacked set. This is the this is the highest level of that. You know? This is the highest level,
1550
02:01:35.375 --> 02:01:42.355
Until this comes out with some sort of API or something where you can just do auto trades, and still, that's not gonna work out great, by the way.
1551
02:01:43.135 --> 02:01:44.650
But with a miner,
1552
02:01:45.110 --> 02:01:46.170
you really can
1553
02:01:46.630 --> 02:01:51.290
set it up. It doesn't take any technical ability. I promise you it takes none.
1554
02:01:52.025 --> 02:01:56.284
You put it on your same IP address that that wherever you live, whatever
1555
02:01:57.625 --> 02:01:58.125
network
1556
02:02:01.040 --> 02:02:08.705
to the URL and go there, click a button, copy paste, and it's running. I mean, it takes no technical skill.
1557
02:02:09.425 --> 02:02:15.525
1558
02:02:15.880 --> 02:02:20.220
1559
02:02:20.600 --> 02:02:24.085
you know, the the pool that you're gonna mine on, and you're mining.
1560
02:02:24.705 --> 02:02:25.345
1561
02:02:25.825 --> 02:02:33.045
what about mining shitcoins and auto dumping for Bitcoin? Have you done that through GPU mining at all or no? Just ASICs only?
1562
02:02:33.730 --> 02:02:41.429
1563
02:02:41.885 --> 02:02:43.824
actually trying to Yeah.
1564
02:02:44.125 --> 02:02:50.950
1565
02:02:51.810 --> 02:02:52.310
I'm
1566
02:02:52.930 --> 02:02:55.830
glad I made my my 5¢ worth of Monero.
1567
02:02:56.210 --> 02:02:56.870
You know?
1568
02:02:57.650 --> 02:02:58.390
Yeah. Exactly.
1569
02:02:59.835 --> 02:03:05.375
1570
02:03:05.755 --> 02:03:06.655
point 000.
1571
02:03:07.195 --> 02:03:10.080
I'm getting, like, a 1000 stats every so but
1572
02:03:11.180 --> 02:03:15.280
that's one of those things where you turn let it run. You come back a week later,
1573
02:03:16.324 --> 02:03:21.224
you know, you in your life and doing whatever you're doing, really buying Bitcoin the whole time, essentially.
1574
02:03:22.724 --> 02:03:24.744
Just a little piece at a time. So
1575
02:03:25.090 --> 02:03:27.349
I just wanna make sure that it it
1576
02:03:27.889 --> 02:03:33.670
doesn't get discounted because so many people that are instantly told the first time they bring up mining,
1577
02:03:33.975 --> 02:03:35.675
you can't do it. It's not profitable.
1578
02:03:35.975 --> 02:03:38.875
It's not even worth, you know, talking about and looking at.
1579
02:03:39.574 --> 02:03:43.110
Check that right up out. There's a couple other guys that have done it,
1580
02:03:43.510 --> 02:03:48.575
since then that you know, I know Econo Alchemist, he's about he's gonna do another write up on it,
1581
02:03:49.695 --> 02:03:53.715
which he does epic Twitter threads if you've ever ridden any of his other threads.
1582
02:03:55.295 --> 02:04:00.470
So, you know, don't just don't discount it. Leave all your options open. Use the tool.
1583
02:04:04.530 --> 02:04:06.390
1584
02:04:08.385 --> 02:04:10.805
I just wanna do a quick shout out to,
1585
02:04:12.065 --> 02:04:12.565
silent.link,
1586
02:04:14.065 --> 02:04:15.205
free grown business.
1587
02:04:16.790 --> 02:04:17.290
Fantastic.
1588
02:04:18.869 --> 02:04:20.010
You get an eSIM,
1589
02:04:20.630 --> 02:04:21.690
and that eSIM,
1590
02:04:23.045 --> 02:04:29.385
is is your phone number, and it's a British phone number. So, you know, deal with it. It it that's what it's gonna be.
1591
02:04:30.730 --> 02:04:34.670
Unfortunately, Graphene and and and and Copperhead do not allow,
1592
02:04:35.770 --> 02:04:42.855
eSIMs, but Kallix OS does allow eSIMs, and it's, like, a pretty easy way to to get a burner phone number,
1593
02:04:43.315 --> 02:04:46.135
with Bitcoin without tying it to your identity.
1594
02:04:47.475 --> 02:04:48.540
So consider it.
1595
02:04:49.420 --> 02:04:50.800
Our our boy, Catan,
1596
02:04:51.820 --> 02:04:52.960
friend of the podcast,
1597
02:04:53.820 --> 02:04:58.525
used it and literally could not shut up about it. So go check that out.
1598
02:05:00.685 --> 02:05:04.205
I I I appreciate you, Diverter. Thank you for,
1599
02:05:04.685 --> 02:05:06.304
giving us that insight there,
1600
02:05:07.000 --> 02:05:07.820
on mining.
1601
02:05:08.600 --> 02:05:13.100
I I think people just don't appreciate the mining aspect. I think it's it's,
1602
02:05:14.475 --> 02:05:21.535
like I said, I would a 100% my I'd mine for, like, 50 to 40% loss. Like, I would just take the fucking huge hit,
1603
02:05:22.330 --> 02:05:38.815
just to have no k y c Bitcoin, and then at the same time, like, you're supporting Bitcoin. And even if you're even if you're mining shit coins and auto dumping to Bitcoin, you're supporting Bitcoin because you're auto dumping shit coins for Bitcoin. So you're increasing the price of Bitcoin and you're decreasing the price of shit coin.
1604
02:05:39.199 --> 02:05:40.659
It's like the best pack ever.
1605
02:05:41.040 --> 02:05:47.139
So regardless of how you decide to mine, whether that's publicly available GPUs or that's ASICs,
1606
02:05:47.765 --> 02:05:56.105
fucking think about doing it. Just try it. Just do it on a small scale. Enjoy it. I should have done it more. I did it, but I I didn't do it hard enough,
1607
02:05:56.960 --> 02:05:59.060
and and just fucking think about doing it.
1608
02:05:59.680 --> 02:06:00.180
Max,
1609
02:06:00.720 --> 02:06:05.300
you've been pretty quiet over there. I want I wanna talk about a little bit before we get going here,
1610
02:06:05.835 --> 02:06:06.735
about this idea
1611
02:06:07.275 --> 02:06:09.295
of of you going from Britain to Singapore.
1612
02:06:10.955 --> 02:06:22.145
To the Bitcoiners out there who are thinking about changing jurisdiction because Bitcoin is pumping and they feel baller as fuck, and they just don't like their jurisdiction, what do you have to say to them?
1613
02:06:23.345 --> 02:06:23.845
1614
02:06:25.825 --> 02:06:34.190
it's easier when you're younger. I mean, I'm 37 now. So, I mean, I I first came out, I think, kind of 25 or something.
1615
02:06:35.050 --> 02:06:35.550
So
1616
02:06:36.090 --> 02:06:41.805
the reality is is for most people, you can talk about changing jurisdictions, but it's just not an option
1617
02:06:42.665 --> 02:06:43.325
for a lot.
1618
02:06:43.785 --> 02:06:45.325
You know, you have to deal with
1619
02:06:45.945 --> 02:06:48.765
family being stuck behind and and, you know,
1620
02:06:49.410 --> 02:06:53.670
obviously, it's more difficult now to make these these moves, with the COVID situation.
1621
02:06:54.130 --> 02:07:03.534
And, also, it's more difficult to be abroad, with the COVID situation because you've now got family maybe back home, that you can't visit at certain times. So I think that makes it harder.
1622
02:07:04.780 --> 02:07:08.159
What I would say, I mean, just as a general thing is I think it
1623
02:07:08.699 --> 02:07:17.825
the great thing about moving abroad and changing jurisdictions if you are fortunate enough to be able to do it is I think it gives you a better perspective on things back home.
1624
02:07:19.005 --> 02:07:28.620
It's very easy to be arrogant and proud of your political system, to culture and all that. And then to look at it back in a different light, I think,
1625
02:07:29.179 --> 02:07:30.159
is pretty important.
1626
02:07:31.335 --> 02:07:35.114
And certainly, when I came to Singapore, you know, 12 years ago or whatever,
1627
02:07:36.215 --> 02:07:37.435
I couldn't understand
1628
02:07:38.215 --> 02:07:39.995
how somewhere that
1629
02:07:40.600 --> 02:07:41.740
had no real
1630
02:07:42.200 --> 02:07:52.445
semblance of democracy in the meaningful sense of the word because it's a one it's effectively a one party government here, and it has been for the same party for years. How it could be so kind of economically
1631
02:07:52.985 --> 02:07:56.844
free and free in other ways. Obviously, there there are some quite substantial
1632
02:07:57.630 --> 02:07:59.250
freedom restrictions here as well.
1633
02:07:59.870 --> 02:08:03.890
But, you know, but by not having what we in, say, UK or US,
1634
02:08:04.350 --> 02:08:06.850
would view as a kind of free system.
1635
02:08:07.375 --> 02:08:15.074
And then for me, it's again, it kinda comes into trade offs, but you when you actually start realizing it, you see that the kind of the
1636
02:08:16.090 --> 02:08:23.550
the political system is only one part of it. The economic liberalism is a huge aspect. You know? I have no capital gains taxes out here.
1637
02:08:24.135 --> 02:08:25.835
The income tax is a lot lower.
1638
02:08:26.695 --> 02:08:28.555
You know, the the ability to travel,
1639
02:08:28.935 --> 02:08:29.835
until recently,
1640
02:08:30.135 --> 02:08:38.139
unlike the rest of the world, yeah, unlike the rest of the world, it was also substantially freer. I think he's a great thing to do. I think he's worth doing. I just think that, ultimately,
1641
02:08:38.440 --> 02:08:40.619
you know, there is a cost to moving. You
1642
02:08:41.585 --> 02:08:49.605
just sitting on a business. It's obviously harder if you're going with a job and is taking you over. That's that's substantially easier, and you kinda get softened kind of impact
1643
02:08:50.770 --> 02:08:52.710
to to to the kind of the adjustment.
1644
02:08:53.330 --> 02:08:58.290
But, you know, you have to you do have to kind of put up with a new culture and learn how to,
1645
02:08:59.515 --> 02:09:01.195
to to adapt somewhat. And,
1646
02:09:02.155 --> 02:09:04.815
so, yeah, I'll tell you now, I'm not I'm not the best at adapting.
1647
02:09:05.355 --> 02:09:10.699
Everywhere I walk is like little patch of England, and I'm not, yeah, I'm not the most kind of culturally aware.
1648
02:09:12.440 --> 02:09:17.455
But, you know, somewhere like Singapore, for example, I can't think of many better places to be at the moment.
1649
02:09:17.935 --> 02:09:22.915
We haven't got kind of the political problems like in Hong Kong. And it's nothing like that here.
1650
02:09:23.935 --> 02:09:26.845
It's, you know, it's very easy to start a business.
1651
02:09:28.000 --> 02:09:30.900
It's, you know, it's it's a good place to work and live.
1652
02:09:32.000 --> 02:09:34.340
And, by and large, you know,
1653
02:09:34.880 --> 02:09:35.380
it's
1654
02:09:36.125 --> 02:09:37.505
it's a pretty free society,
1655
02:09:38.125 --> 02:09:42.065
with a lot there, but it does depend on kind of what's important to you.
1656
02:09:42.445 --> 02:09:43.345
If you're into
1657
02:09:44.320 --> 02:09:45.540
recreational pharmaceuticals
1658
02:09:46.000 --> 02:09:46.500
or,
1659
02:09:47.840 --> 02:09:51.380
or or guns, you know, you're you're not gonna have such a good time. And
1660
02:09:51.745 --> 02:09:52.405
If you
1661
02:09:52.785 --> 02:09:59.525
if, you know, if you like to be able to to drink outside and not be, like, in the US forced to drink your alcohol in a in a brown paper
1662
02:10:02.770 --> 02:10:06.390
And, yeah, it's it's it's awesome. Like, it's substantially better than the US in that perspective.
1663
02:10:06.690 --> 02:10:07.190
And,
1664
02:10:08.210 --> 02:10:08.710
but,
1665
02:10:09.315 --> 02:10:17.815
but, yes, so so I I think it's, it's always worth considering these things. And if you do get the opportunity, it's worth taking. But it is a it's a big it's a big move to make.
1666
02:10:25.210 --> 02:10:26.590
1667
02:10:27.735 --> 02:10:29.835
I look forward to visiting you in Singapore,
1668
02:10:30.455 --> 02:10:31.675
when all this bullshit,
1669
02:10:32.614 --> 02:10:40.150
1670
02:10:40.710 --> 02:11:24.110
it's not just for the next batch or anything. That's the fact that it's probably mostly locals. We've got people that work What about the chewing gum thing? Has that hit you hard? Did you were you a gum chewer before you went to Singapore, and then you were like, I don't I'm not gonna do it. I don't wanna risk a felony. Like, what what how how did that how did that end up? Actually, like, nothing is really just like I think it really affected. I'm chewing gum, and I I I'd like this is the fact I never did drugs when I was younger at all or even now. So, like, I mean, this is the only thing that makes me the difference to some of the Bitcoiners who kind of got familiar with it through darknet markets. Like, I just never had any interest. I mean, all I wanna do is drink. And when I came here, I could drink and there's no problem with that. So it was like same as London, really. It's like that easy.
1671
02:11:24.570 --> 02:11:26.010
So I took to it pretty easily.
1672
02:11:26.570 --> 02:11:35.205
So now, like, it's I think the only thing really, like, that you would potentially notice here is, like, the press freedom is is massively limited.
1673
02:11:35.905 --> 02:11:48.465
But then, you know, I haven't I haven't read the local newspaper. I haven't paid any attention to anything much to my girlfriend's concern because she gets worried I'm gonna, like, break the local kind of COVID regulations by walking around without a mask and all that.
1674
02:11:49.325 --> 02:11:51.105
And, yeah, I mean, I just you know?
1675
02:11:51.485 --> 02:11:51.985
And
1676
02:11:52.845 --> 02:12:09.015
these are the things we're right is is, like, you we like, the country rates terribly on, like, the free press index, I believe. But, you know, when you got the Internet, does that really matter? Like, it doesn't make any difference to your your day to day stuff. And I think the other thing is the government is,
1677
02:12:09.715 --> 02:12:18.870
you know, quite overboard in in in in with freedoms. At the same time, they actually didn't step in too much. Wait. That's interesting. That's interesting. Just,
1678
02:12:19.945 --> 02:12:28.204
1679
02:12:28.630 --> 02:12:34.330
1680
02:12:35.750 --> 02:12:43.205
Like, tons of porn sites restricted. I'm pretty sure Pirate Bay is, but they're like What about the VPNs? Do they block, like, the big VPNs?
1681
02:12:43.505 --> 02:12:44.725
VPNs, no problem.
1682
02:12:45.105 --> 02:12:45.680
You can
1683
02:12:56.065 --> 02:13:00.485
1684
02:13:00.785 --> 02:13:09.550
1685
02:13:09.929 --> 02:13:11.550
quite got quite kind of Christian
1686
02:13:12.905 --> 02:13:20.525
origins, I'd say, and there's still kind of quite heavy Christian aspects to that where the kind of the rank yeah. The the rank most of the Chinese here are kind of Buddhist.
1687
02:13:21.810 --> 02:13:24.630
So you've actually got kind of slightly more conservative policy,
1688
02:13:25.330 --> 02:13:25.830
amongst
1689
02:13:26.930 --> 02:13:29.995
politicians with how things reacted versus, you know,
1690
02:13:30.555 --> 02:13:31.935
the rest of the country.
1691
02:13:32.235 --> 02:13:36.015
So, yeah, things are actually incredibly free sexually, for example,
1692
02:13:36.715 --> 02:13:37.215
here,
1693
02:13:37.900 --> 02:13:40.320
in ways that would open a lot of Americans' eyes.
1694
02:13:40.860 --> 02:13:42.400
But yet online is conservative,
1695
02:13:42.860 --> 02:13:44.060
so it's kinda quite,
1696
02:13:44.460 --> 02:13:46.800
quite quite different from from that perspective.
1697
02:13:47.475 --> 02:13:52.775
But that being said, like, I mean, you know, this is not to kind of paper over some utopia. I mean,
1698
02:13:53.795 --> 02:13:54.615
there's an
1699
02:13:54.995 --> 02:14:05.805
if you've like, there's a couple of, like, high profile cases of someone even, like, holding up, like, a smiley face in front of the government and protect and doing a small form of protest. So there's absolutely no protests.
1700
02:14:06.425 --> 02:14:08.605
They get cracked down on incredibly quickly.
1701
02:14:09.145 --> 02:14:09.645
And,
1702
02:14:11.440 --> 02:14:14.340
you know, you you you don't poke the bear in that respect,
1703
02:14:14.880 --> 02:14:15.380
here.
1704
02:14:15.760 --> 02:14:22.155
And, you know, the the actions are kind of very swift. And if and again, we're in a country that's got a lot of foreign workers.
1705
02:14:22.614 --> 02:14:34.980
People will tow the line more because the punishments are very easy for them to do because if, you know, they've obviously confined or imprisoned you, but they could just take away work permits and, you know, business passes. You'd just be out on your ass pretty quickly.
1706
02:14:35.975 --> 02:14:36.635
So that's,
1707
02:14:37.335 --> 02:14:46.119
you know, so that, you know, it's not all kind of, you know, freedom at all. It's just that I think for a lot of people, it's an acceptable trade off.
1708
02:14:51.615 --> 02:14:52.995
1709
02:14:53.535 --> 02:14:54.515
As an American,
1710
02:14:55.135 --> 02:14:59.235
it is very foreign to me. It is not something that I
1711
02:15:00.570 --> 02:15:02.270
would inherently understand.
1712
02:15:03.130 --> 02:15:04.670
So I appreciate you
1713
02:15:06.490 --> 02:15:09.150
kind of showing that that light to us. And
1714
02:15:09.895 --> 02:15:15.195
and like I said, I I I I I am excited to visit. I I think, to me, Singapore
1715
02:15:16.054 --> 02:15:16.554
is
1716
02:15:18.190 --> 02:15:28.255
really fucking cool because to me, like, that's the whole idea of Citadel theory. Right? Is that this idea that we could have, like, city states. Like, we could have these smaller jurisdictions
1717
02:15:28.835 --> 02:15:29.335
that
1718
02:15:29.915 --> 02:15:30.415
have,
1719
02:15:32.074 --> 02:15:41.890
unilateral control over over how they they decide their jurisdiction is run. And then all of a sudden you have competition, and we have really cool things happening.
1720
02:15:43.310 --> 02:15:46.895
And, obviously, like everyone knows Singapore is a massive global port
1721
02:15:48.655 --> 02:15:49.155
that,
1722
02:15:49.855 --> 02:15:50.595
you know,
1723
02:15:51.215 --> 02:15:55.075
like, makes makes New York show respect, which is impressive.
1724
02:15:55.730 --> 02:15:59.590
As a New Yorker, that's impressive, and I I embrace that, and I respect that.
1725
02:16:01.170 --> 02:16:05.185
So, I mean, I we've gone we've gone for over 2 hours here. I appreciate all
1726
02:16:05.485 --> 02:16:12.145
the freaks who have tuned in. I appreciate all the freaks who are going to listen to this through the podcast feeds.
1727
02:16:13.220 --> 02:16:14.840
I appreciate both you guys.
1728
02:16:16.020 --> 02:16:17.000
So, I mean,
1729
02:16:17.860 --> 02:16:20.440
let's just let's just wrap this up with,
1730
02:16:22.335 --> 02:16:27.715
I I I will I have not given this to other guests, but, you know, we're episode 5, and we have no formula.
1731
02:16:28.175 --> 02:16:28.495
So,
1732
02:16:29.375 --> 02:16:31.235
we're figuring out as we go.
1733
02:16:31.760 --> 02:16:39.755
Diverter, you know, last comments to the freaks, until I have you back, which will be soon. I promise you, and I appreciate you for coming on.
1734
02:16:40.235 --> 02:16:42.575
Yeah. Hit them hit them with your last comments.
1735
02:16:43.035 --> 02:16:47.055
1736
02:16:47.520 --> 02:16:48.020
Yeah.
1737
02:16:49.680 --> 02:16:57.935
Can leave people with when we're looking about secure messengers and what is and what isn't. The the best thing I could do is is I could tell you what I run.
1738
02:16:58.795 --> 02:17:03.615
If you've got questions about them, be free to hit me up about it, and we can talk
1739
02:17:04.075 --> 02:17:04.975
and we can talk.
1740
02:17:06.120 --> 02:17:09.341
I can just hit you with that. And, otherwise, if you wanna catch me,
1741
02:17:10.280 --> 02:17:11.341
check out coin.com.
1742
02:17:12.761 --> 02:17:13.820
Matt linked earlier.
1743
02:17:14.625 --> 02:17:18.404
The Bear Arms at Bitcoin conference, I believe it's April 10th 11th,
1744
02:17:19.265 --> 02:17:21.765
in Austin, Texas. So if you can come,
1745
02:17:22.200 --> 02:17:23.420
hope to see you there.
1746
02:17:25.320 --> 02:17:26.380
Besides that,
1747
02:17:29.055 --> 02:17:30.914
so so I'm an Android maximalist.
1748
02:17:32.734 --> 02:17:36.515
I'm currently on a Pixel 4 a. It's running Copperhead OS.
1749
02:17:39.030 --> 02:17:41.931
Secure messaging, I I do I go to signal
1750
02:17:44.815 --> 02:17:46.275
and, and 3 your messages.
1751
02:17:47.055 --> 02:17:48.255
I built the 3 map,
1752
02:17:48.735 --> 02:17:53.395
APK from the source code, installed it on my phone. It was dead easy. Works
1753
02:17:53.931 --> 02:17:54.431
great.
1754
02:17:55.130 --> 02:17:57.710
I haven't done that with signal. It will one day.
1755
02:17:58.250 --> 02:18:00.090
But those are my what I go to when I wanna
1756
02:18:00.985 --> 02:18:02.285
actually have a messenger.
1757
02:18:03.226 --> 02:18:07.806
Hell, I use right now for my daily driver email is, c templar.
1758
02:18:09.739 --> 02:18:10.239
Dtemplar.com,
1759
02:18:10.859 --> 02:18:13.760
or they have the nonunion address as well, which I do not remember.
1760
02:18:14.699 --> 02:18:16.319
But it's a great encrypted
1761
02:18:17.585 --> 02:18:20.325
email client. I like it. They're being built out.
1762
02:18:20.705 --> 02:18:21.445
It's not
1763
02:18:21.985 --> 02:18:27.270
quite so, intuitive maybe or easy to use yet as, like, a proton or 2 genoda,
1764
02:18:27.650 --> 02:18:29.270
but it's one to keep your eye on.
1765
02:18:31.570 --> 02:18:32.551
For my notes,
1766
02:18:33.011 --> 02:18:35.591
my encrypted note apps, I use standard notes.
1767
02:18:35.926 --> 02:18:36.586
1768
02:18:37.445 --> 02:18:43.145
1769
02:18:43.511 --> 02:18:46.891
1770
02:18:47.351 --> 02:18:50.410
Assume it's fucked, but good. It's good. Sure. Yeah.
1771
02:18:52.435 --> 02:18:56.455
Of course. Love it. Like, that's my life. Just assume it's fucked, but it's good.
1772
02:18:57.314 --> 02:18:57.814
1773
02:18:58.354 --> 02:18:58.854
Absolutely.
1774
02:18:59.480 --> 02:18:59.980
Sorry.
1775
02:19:01.000 --> 02:19:05.500
Social social media my social media app, like I said, as Max mentioned earlier,
1776
02:19:06.200 --> 02:19:09.305
Telegram is is honestly my social media feed.
1777
02:19:10.104 --> 02:19:17.005
I also spend some time on, you know, not so much Twitter anymore, a little bit on Mastodon, Matrix, blah blah blah. But
1778
02:19:17.689 --> 02:19:21.310
my main go to for for that is is Telegram. I love it.
1779
02:19:23.210 --> 02:19:28.235
Bitcoin wallet. This is a bit of a surprise. It may shock some people to know this,
1780
02:19:28.695 --> 02:19:33.080
but my Bitcoin wallet, I prefer is actually samurai wallet. Believe that or not. You.
1781
02:19:34.760 --> 02:19:41.270
So all I use, I run my dojo. I keep local spinning, and and we get it done. Alright. You know what it is. Surprise.
1782
02:19:42.495 --> 02:19:43.555
Shocking. I know.
1783
02:19:44.255 --> 02:19:47.555
My keyboard I'm using is tesser cube. I mentioned that earlier. Tesserpt.com.
1784
02:19:48.175 --> 02:19:49.955
You can find that somewhere in the market.
1785
02:19:51.300 --> 02:19:53.859
Supposedly, there's a version 2 coming out,
1786
02:19:54.420 --> 02:19:54.920
soon.
1787
02:19:55.380 --> 02:19:57.399
T m soon. Not gonna happen.
1788
02:19:59.614 --> 02:20:00.914
But it works. It
1789
02:20:02.095 --> 02:20:02.994
works. Browsers,
1790
02:20:03.295 --> 02:20:04.034
I I
1791
02:20:04.414 --> 02:20:06.435
Tor Browser. Obviously, I love Tor.
1792
02:20:07.279 --> 02:20:09.140
I've been using a lot more lately,
1793
02:20:09.520 --> 02:20:10.580
Bromite, which,
1794
02:20:11.279 --> 02:20:15.460
as we all saw earlier when I was trying to hook up to this chat, sometimes it may
1795
02:20:16.245 --> 02:20:24.425
cause a little so, you know, it's all trade offs on what it may it may be good for you. But I also like, like, an ungoogled Chromium,
1796
02:20:25.449 --> 02:20:25.949
browser.
1797
02:20:27.529 --> 02:20:28.029
VPN,
1798
02:20:29.050 --> 02:20:42.875
of course, small bed right now. They had they gave me a scare the other day when they took Bitcoin off as a payment option and left BCAD. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. That was some bullshit. That was just fine. They just had a bug or something. Like, people just fucking freaked out for no reason.
1799
02:20:44.220 --> 02:20:46.239
1800
02:20:47.340 --> 02:20:48.800
1801
02:20:49.819 --> 02:20:55.275
So yeah. I mean oh, mobile mobile PGP. Open. Open keychain. That's it. That's all I got.
1802
02:20:55.814 --> 02:20:56.715
1803
02:20:57.655 --> 02:21:00.395
We didn't talk about PGP at all. I'll bring you guys back.
1804
02:21:00.780 --> 02:21:02.400
Like, if you care about PGP,
1805
02:21:03.101 --> 02:21:03.761
use it.
1806
02:21:04.380 --> 02:21:09.395
If you care about privacy, use PGP. PGP is the best thing to do. I have,
1807
02:21:09.775 --> 02:21:11.875
a good guide linked at usepgp.com,
1808
02:21:13.295 --> 02:21:14.355
which is a very
1809
02:21:15.830 --> 02:21:21.770
easy domain to remember. Some other random dude made the guide. I just linked to it.
1810
02:21:23.245 --> 02:21:24.945
So go go check that out.
1811
02:21:25.645 --> 02:21:27.025
You should use PGP.
1812
02:21:27.805 --> 02:21:28.305
Diverter,
1813
02:21:28.765 --> 02:21:30.465
before we we leave you,
1814
02:21:31.700 --> 02:21:32.760
January 192022,
1815
02:21:34.180 --> 02:21:35.640
what is the price of Bitcoin?
1816
02:21:36.979 --> 02:21:38.200
1817
02:21:38.716 --> 02:21:47.296
1818
02:21:47.600 --> 02:21:48.819
I I like freaks.
1819
02:21:49.279 --> 02:21:59.955
Like, the whole point of the show is that I want the freaks to be the host. I want you guys to take my responsibility away from me and handle for me, and I will just spotlight
1820
02:22:00.415 --> 02:22:07.551
you. S and m has done that. I like this idea that at the end of every show, I should ask the price prediction a year from now.
1821
02:22:08.330 --> 02:22:10.990
What what what will the Bitcoin price be?
1822
02:22:11.931 --> 02:22:14.595
Diverter hit us. This just hit $50,000.
1823
02:22:15.535 --> 02:22:16.755
Let's fucking go.
1824
02:22:17.215 --> 02:22:18.195
1825
02:22:19.295 --> 02:22:20.515
I I tell you what.
1826
02:22:20.940 --> 02:22:24.320
Since Biscuit's sitting on 50, I mean, it's hard not to go high here.
1827
02:22:25.101 --> 02:22:26.940
Honestly, though, we got a new,
1828
02:22:27.580 --> 02:22:33.075
United States administration coming in with Biden and, I mean, some of the plans they've already got.
1829
02:22:33.455 --> 02:22:36.435
Money printer is most definitely getting ready to go BRRRR.
1830
02:22:37.455 --> 02:22:39.051
So with that in
1831
02:22:40.431 --> 02:22:40.931
mind,
1832
02:22:42.471 --> 02:22:43.530
I'm gonna go ahead.
1833
02:22:44.950 --> 02:22:45.450
125,
1834
02:22:45.830 --> 02:22:49.435
man. 125. There we go. Thank you, my dude.
1835
02:22:50.535 --> 02:22:53.035
1836
02:22:54.930 --> 02:22:57.190
Someone asked someone asked in the comments,
1837
02:22:57.730 --> 02:22:58.230
ProtonVPN
1838
02:22:58.850 --> 02:23:10.846
versus MoleVAD. I mean, they're both good. Proton's got good reputation. I just like Movad better. I think Movad's better. I think you pay with Bitcoin. Max Keiser's jumping in at, like, the end of 2 hours. It's like classic
1839
02:23:11.226 --> 02:23:14.680
Max. Shout out shout out Max Kaiser for joining us.
1840
02:23:15.061 --> 02:23:17.080
I just think MOLVAD is I I
1841
02:23:17.620 --> 02:23:20.040
I don't know what it is. It's just a gut thing.
1842
02:23:20.375 --> 02:23:23.515
It just feels more real. It just feels like they care,
1843
02:23:23.895 --> 02:23:29.230
and and you're just trusting them. At the end of the day, a hosted VPN provider, you're trusting them. Sure.
1844
02:23:29.690 --> 02:23:30.670
1845
02:23:31.930 --> 02:23:32.430
1846
02:23:33.050 --> 02:23:33.790
hit us.
1847
02:23:35.984 --> 02:23:41.444
I could oh, is it just, like, final thoughts, wasn't it? Yeah. Final thoughts. Hit us with with what what you wanna hit us.
1848
02:23:41.905 --> 02:23:44.484
I you know, we're 5 5 weeks into
1849
02:23:44.851 --> 02:23:48.870
dispatch. I'll probably have you guys back on in another 6 weeks or something like that.
1850
02:23:49.330 --> 02:23:50.230
1851
02:23:50.610 --> 02:23:56.035
1852
02:23:56.815 --> 02:24:00.355
I think just 2 things I'd kinda leave everyone with is,
1853
02:24:02.540 --> 02:24:04.560
one, just pay it forward.
1854
02:24:05.100 --> 02:24:05.840
I mean,
1855
02:24:06.540 --> 02:24:19.635
since the earliest days that I got involved, I cannot kind of thank enough for generosity of people that walked me through things and went through and explained. And I think it's everyone's beauty that when you get that from the others that welcome you in,
1856
02:24:20.210 --> 02:24:21.750
to continue to do that.
1857
02:24:22.210 --> 02:24:23.110
1858
02:24:24.851 --> 02:24:26.950
1859
02:24:28.205 --> 02:24:36.785
I'm honestly overwhelmed with the info I get from people. There's, and, you know, in a in a particularly difficult year, such as 2020, which in for us changed a lot of people in different ways,
1860
02:24:37.181 --> 02:24:48.615
having a bunch of people online, that I can argue with, that can make me laugh and all that, it also can help me, has been absolutely critical. So, like, that will be as important for this year as it was for last.
1861
02:24:49.315 --> 02:24:49.815
Secondly,
1862
02:24:51.235 --> 02:24:52.695
just learn to manage your keys
1863
02:24:53.141 --> 02:24:53.960
whether it's Bitcoin,
1864
02:24:54.341 --> 02:25:00.440
whether it's encrypting messaging. There I see no way around that. And anyone that says, you know, that
1865
02:25:01.215 --> 02:25:22.295
you don't need to do that and you're gonna be you know, that there's gonna be kind of mass adoption ways to get around that, I I don't see it. Like, for the moment, for anytime soon, this is what we've got to deal with. So back up, make sure you've got, you know, redundancy and all that, and, make sure also your loved ones have got access to it. Don't be so over the top with your paranoia that only you can access that.
1866
02:25:22.854 --> 02:25:28.715
If you're the only one that can access your coins, then you need to make some life choices about getting some more important people in your life to
1867
02:25:29.050 --> 02:25:32.510
to hand those over to if you go. Like, that's what it's all about.
1868
02:25:33.130 --> 02:25:34.189
So definitely that.
1869
02:25:35.370 --> 02:25:37.050
You know, I I won't go in kind of,
1870
02:25:38.255 --> 02:25:53.040
a recount of kind of that's amazing at the moment. I think Diverter's got plenty on there and overlaps with me. But what I would say is something that we probably didn't cover as much in today's podcast, but it's also something that would be good for a net future one is probably more kind of plans for self hosting.
1871
02:25:53.845 --> 02:25:59.045
It's something I've discussed with people like Katan and the other guys as well. But,
1872
02:25:59.525 --> 02:26:06.610
you know, shout out to MoSaaS as well. He's done a lot of the work on the Bitcoin enemies front. I think it will all be important for us this year to look for user,
1873
02:26:06.990 --> 02:26:08.590
friendly ways of doing stuff like,
1874
02:26:09.615 --> 02:26:11.155
sign up service for matrix
1875
02:26:11.535 --> 02:26:14.675
and hosting your own Mastodon, Pluroma, that kind of thing,
1876
02:26:15.055 --> 02:26:19.520
and getting ahead, like, yeah, we've always gotta be one step ahead. And I think looking at those,
1877
02:26:20.300 --> 02:26:23.200
and looking at the best solutions there is the natural next step,
1878
02:26:23.660 --> 02:26:25.520
for moving the kind of the
1879
02:26:26.415 --> 02:26:26.994
the concentrated
1880
02:26:27.375 --> 02:26:35.920
kind of community that we have on a few centralized places at the moment to something a bit more distributed. So look out for the companies that provide the best solutions to do that
1881
02:26:36.479 --> 02:26:37.700
and pay for those services.
1882
02:26:39.200 --> 02:26:39.600
And,
1883
02:26:40.080 --> 02:26:54.650
you know, like, I think, you know, hit me up as well if you wanna know how to do PGP or whatever. I've done that with plenty of people. Always happy to help there. And, yeah, best place probably to find me is Telegram or on the email at the moment, and you can also find me on Twitter.
1884
02:26:56.070 --> 02:26:58.570
1885
02:27:00.710 --> 02:27:01.210
I
1886
02:27:02.855 --> 02:27:04.315
I feel bad because
1887
02:27:05.495 --> 02:27:13.811
to this day I've been in Bitcoin for a long time to this day. Like, if I died right now, like, oh, my family would just be fucked. Like, you you get no Bitcoin.
1888
02:27:14.430 --> 02:27:19.250
All that Bitcoin's gone. I'm just so paranoid that my errors are at risk. So,
1889
02:27:20.375 --> 02:27:23.835
and this is coming from someone who has a dead man switch as a product.
1890
02:27:24.215 --> 02:27:28.235
I'll put it out at final message dot io if you wanna check it out.
1891
02:27:29.560 --> 02:27:42.375
But I just don't even trust my own service with that. So I just fucking I just live in a life where if I die tomorrow, it's just a contribution to all you Bitcoiners. I mean, they'll get some of it, but they just won't get the majority of it.
1892
02:27:43.955 --> 02:27:47.570
And, I just appreciate you guys. I mean, the whole point of this show
1893
02:27:48.030 --> 02:27:50.690
is to embrace the freaks that join us live,
1894
02:27:51.870 --> 02:27:58.535
and I love the freaks that don't join us live as well. I'm not I'm not saying I don't I don't love you guys. Thank you for coming for the archive.
1895
02:27:59.795 --> 02:28:10.910
And and and and the whole point the whole point is just to have a good time and just have people who are my friends on, and I appreciate you guys for joining us. I I think you guys are gonna be on in the future as well.
1896
02:28:12.375 --> 02:28:16.075
I hope if you if you will if you'll join us again. Great.
1897
02:28:17.015 --> 02:28:23.630
And and I said last week, pump the NIMS, and so here we are. You know, let's pump the fucking NIMs, and that's what it's all about.
1898
02:28:25.610 --> 02:28:28.270
Yeah. Yep. We'll have our HR on Thursday
1899
02:28:28.615 --> 02:28:37.195
1900
02:28:38.400 --> 02:28:41.620
1901
02:28:42.160 --> 02:28:43.540
you. Thank you. Max.
1902
02:28:43.920 --> 02:28:45.700
Max, this time next year,
1903
02:28:46.186 --> 02:28:46.686
price
1904
02:28:47.065 --> 02:28:47.565
prediction.
1905
02:28:47.945 --> 02:28:49.806
1906
02:28:53.945 --> 02:29:00.740
1907
02:29:02.400 --> 02:29:03.700
1908
02:29:04.125 --> 02:29:08.545
80,000. Yeah. Right? 80,000? You fucking bear, you little piece of shit.
1909
02:29:08.925 --> 02:29:11.350
Okay. So, he's gonna get wrecked.
1910
02:29:11.830 --> 02:29:15.210
What is shit corner coming in with that shitty ass prediction?
1911
02:29:15.909 --> 02:29:20.330
And I look forward to having you back here while we destroy you on that prediction.
1912
02:29:22.176 --> 02:29:24.275
And I just to all the other freaks,
1913
02:29:24.976 --> 02:29:34.860
stay humble, stack stats, and join us on Thursday for rabbit hole recap, probably around 2 PM. We don't have a set time because it's just me and Marty just chilling.
1914
02:29:35.240 --> 02:29:37.101
So we love you all, and,
1915
02:29:38.280 --> 02:29:39.660
stay humble, stack sets.
1916
02:29:39.985 --> 02:29:40.485
Thanks,
1917
02:29:47.141 --> 02:29:49.080
1918
02:29:49.540 --> 02:29:50.040
flight.
1919
02:29:53.700 --> 02:29:54.520
0 out.
1920
02:29:55.324 --> 02:29:56.225
9 AM.
1921
02:29:59.885 --> 02:30:01.505
And I'm gonna be
1922
02:30:03.245 --> 02:30:03.745
high
1923
02:30:05.180 --> 02:30:07.040
as a kite by then.
1924
02:30:22.061 --> 02:30:22.800
It's lonely
1925
02:30:23.180 --> 02:30:24.160
out of space.
1926
02:30:27.900 --> 02:30:29.280
On such a time,
1927
02:30:31.180 --> 02:30:32.145
I'm as
1928
02:30:36.127 --> 02:30:36.627
white.
1929
02:31:41.055 --> 02:31:42.515
To raise your kids.
1930
02:31:46.175 --> 02:31:48.595
In fact, it's cold as hell.
1931
02:31:52.320 --> 02:31:56.101
And there's no one there to raise them.
1932
02:31:57.405 --> 02:31:57.905
If
1933
02:31:58.365 --> 02:31:59.104
you did.
1934
02:33:28.145 --> 02:33:31.525
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time.
1935
02:33:35.221 --> 02:33:38.601
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time.
1936
02:33:42.175 --> 02:33:45.475
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time.
1937
02:34:27.490 --> 02:34:30.070
