Dec. 30, 2020
CD2: Privacy, Nodes, and No KYC with ErgoBTC & BitcoinQ_A
Join Matt Odell as he sits down with ErgoBTC & BitcoinQ_A
EPISODE: 0.0.2
BLOCK: 663569
PRICE: 3619 sats per dollar
TOPICS: privacy, nodes, no kyc
streamed live every tuesday:
https://citadeldispatch.com
twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch
bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos
podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch
telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch
support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: http://citadel.chat/
00:48 - Why Bitcoin matters for human rights
03:13 - Introduction of guests Ergo and Bitcoin q and a
08:43 - The importance of privacy in Bitcoin
09:13 - The power of using NIMs online
10:00 - The challenges of Bitcoin privacy and the need for wallet automation
36:46 - The impact of KYC on Bitcoin privacy
47:13 - Bitcoin privacy and the use of custodial tumblers
01:18:06 - The challenges of clustering and classifying transactions
01:28:05 - The benefits and risks of using custodial tumblers and CoinJoin
01:29:28 - Coin mixing process
01:30:09 - Bitcoin's impact on privacy
01:31:38 - Decreased usage of Bitcoin on darknet markets
02:11:51 - Discussion about the Nalandojo dojo and its features
02:12:18 - Comparison of different devices and their prices
02:13:30 - Benefits of using a Nodl Dojo for lightning node and samurai focus
02:14:08 - Discussion about using Ronin Dojo and the support provided
02:15:03 - Opinions on the simplicity of using Spectre plus Bitcoin Core
02:15:39 - Importance of having a samurai stack and using a friend's samurai or dojo
02:16:38 - Advantages of using QR code scan for connection instead of sharing onion address
02:17:32 - Importance of BIP 47 for privacy and the need for more wallet support
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:35:05 PM
Duration: 9227.311
Channels: 1
1
00:00:48.215 --> 00:00:50.955
Why Bitcoin matters for human rights in 2 minutes.
2
00:00:51.335 --> 00:01:03.405
Today, cash is disappearing, whether it's in the United Kingdom or the United States or Sweden or South Korea, a smaller and smaller amount of our daily transactions are done with cash. We have to think about the implications
3
00:01:03.864 --> 00:01:05.165
of a cashless society
4
00:01:05.625 --> 00:01:07.325
where all money is digitally
5
00:01:07.625 --> 00:01:08.125
centralized.
6
00:01:08.585 --> 00:01:12.500
We have to think about what happens when we lose the financial privacy
7
00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:18.820
afforded to us by paper money. We have to think about the new powers that states and corporations
8
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.075
gain as we trade our privacy and freedom for comfort and convenience
9
00:01:23.534 --> 00:01:28.115
because what you buy and sell says more about you than your words.
10
00:01:28.415 --> 00:01:28.915
Consider,
11
00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:37.430
when you make a transaction with a paper bill, the merchant doesn't know your name, your email address, your phone number, or really anything about you. By contrast,
12
00:01:37.765 --> 00:01:38.825
when you make a transaction
13
00:01:39.365 --> 00:01:40.825
with a phone or a wearable
14
00:01:41.125 --> 00:01:46.345
or a swipe or one day a chip, you reveal an enormous amount of information about yourself,
15
00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.260
which leads to control by corporations
16
00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:50.220
and governments
17
00:01:50.520 --> 00:01:51.260
and censorship
18
00:01:51.800 --> 00:01:52.460
and surveillance
19
00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.100
and gradually social engineering.
20
00:01:55.545 --> 00:02:02.604
This is why Bitcoin is so revolutionary because it lays the groundwork for a peer to peer electronic cash system, where unlike
21
00:02:02.905 --> 00:02:04.444
today's legacy arrangement
22
00:02:04.744 --> 00:02:11.310
where there's banks and software companies and payment processors in the middle of every single digital transaction that happens,
23
00:02:11.610 --> 00:02:12.110
instead,
24
00:02:12.410 --> 00:02:19.055
nobody's in the middle of you and the person you are paying. Their payment processing is done instead by a global competition.
25
00:02:19.675 --> 00:02:28.810
And this is why in a world and in a future where we will have state money, we will have corporate money, Bitcoin is more like the people's money. It is a way out. It is an alternative.
26
00:02:29.670 --> 00:02:38.465
Now less than 1% of us have used Bitcoin, perhaps 50 or 60,000,000 out of the 7 and a half 1000000000 on this earth. But if we keep growing this and if Bitcoin thrives,
27
00:02:38.845 --> 00:02:45.040
humans will have a money that can't be censored by authorities, that can't be devalued by governments, that can't be monopolized by corporations,
28
00:02:45.420 --> 00:02:53.585
that can't be easily mass surveilled, that can't be stopped by borders, and that can be accessed by anyone. And that's why Bitcoin matters for human rights.
29
00:02:55.645 --> 00:02:56.705
Yo freaks.
30
00:02:57.500 --> 00:03:00.640
This is Matt O'Dell, and you're listening to Citadel Dispatch.
31
00:03:01.260 --> 00:03:02.959
This is episode number 2.
32
00:03:04.459 --> 00:03:04.959
Welcome,
33
00:03:05.944 --> 00:03:13.004
my my my two good friends that I have joining us this week, Ergo and Bitcoin q and a. What's up, guys?
34
00:03:13.900 --> 00:03:16.400
Hey, Matt. Evening. Pleasure to be on.
35
00:03:17.019 --> 00:03:18.879
So I've noticed something,
36
00:03:19.739 --> 00:03:20.560
on audio.
37
00:03:21.435 --> 00:03:23.855
It it's it's hard to follow for people
38
00:03:24.155 --> 00:03:25.454
to know who is who.
39
00:03:25.834 --> 00:03:27.775
So, Ergo, you first,
40
00:03:28.155 --> 00:03:31.870
you know, give a little introduction to yourself so people can recognize your voice.
41
00:03:32.970 --> 00:03:33.470
Yeah.
42
00:03:33.849 --> 00:03:35.230
So I'm probably,
43
00:03:36.305 --> 00:03:39.045
you know, kinda like a lot of the plebs. I'm not a developer.
44
00:03:40.145 --> 00:03:41.685
I'm just kind of a guy
45
00:03:42.225 --> 00:03:44.725
that sort of started doing his own research,
46
00:03:45.105 --> 00:03:46.810
back when that was cool and acceptable.
47
00:03:48.630 --> 00:03:51.690
You know, and I was kinda comparing some of the CoinJoin protocols.
48
00:03:52.630 --> 00:03:54.090
I guess it would have been,
49
00:03:54.465 --> 00:03:55.905
you know, mid last year.
50
00:03:56.785 --> 00:04:00.325
And in the process, I stumbled on a multibillion dollar Ponzi scheme.
51
00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:03.980
And from there, things kinda just took off.
52
00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:09.695
Since then, I've this is basically finishing my 1st year with, the OXT research team,
53
00:04:10.415 --> 00:04:12.355
that's headed by Laurent MT,
54
00:04:13.135 --> 00:04:13.875
from oxt.me,
55
00:04:14.415 --> 00:04:15.775
which is, you know,
56
00:04:16.175 --> 00:04:17.235
basically a free,
57
00:04:19.630 --> 00:04:23.970
block explorer that has a lot of the tools that most of the chain surveillance companies have.
58
00:04:24.830 --> 00:04:30.035
And so, you know, we kinda just take a look at, basically anything interesting that's happening on chain,
59
00:04:30.815 --> 00:04:34.355
and and see if there's anything that we can't learn and and can't, you know, use to improve,
60
00:04:35.330 --> 00:04:39.110
you know, make things better for everybody else. So that's, that's kinda it.
61
00:04:39.970 --> 00:04:41.430
For those watching the livestream,
62
00:04:41.810 --> 00:04:47.995
we I'm showing OXT Research's most late their latest report on the on the screen right now.
63
00:04:48.855 --> 00:04:51.435
And then we have Bitcoin q and a.
64
00:04:51.735 --> 00:04:52.795
What's up, dude?
65
00:04:53.900 --> 00:04:56.400
Evening, Matt. Yeah. A little bit about me.
66
00:04:57.340 --> 00:04:58.640
Class of 2018,
67
00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:00.800
much like Ergo,
68
00:05:01.100 --> 00:05:03.485
not a a developer or anything of the sorts.
69
00:05:05.405 --> 00:05:08.145
Kinda just got bitten like most of us do.
70
00:05:09.564 --> 00:05:13.509
Quite badly fell head over heels with Bitcoin and and what it what promise
71
00:05:13.810 --> 00:05:15.350
it it sort of presents for the world.
72
00:05:16.370 --> 00:05:20.550
More so this year, really sort of fallen down the privacy rabbit hole.
73
00:05:21.205 --> 00:05:29.210
Been mixing with, a lot with a lot of the samurai guys who've who've shown me no end of love and and and taught me taught me their their wicked ways.
74
00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:30.990
So yeah,
75
00:05:31.690 --> 00:05:34.810
just trying to just got a passion for learning about Bitcoin really.
76
00:05:35.130 --> 00:05:38.535
And you know, the observant among us will see,
77
00:05:38.935 --> 00:05:40.074
that I've I try
78
00:05:40.455 --> 00:05:44.634
and pay that forward and and put out some resources that help people understand
79
00:05:45.175 --> 00:05:47.354
some of the topics a little bit better.
80
00:05:48.650 --> 00:05:54.190
Yeah. So, I mean, as the freaks know, this is my my my second go of this new show.
81
00:05:55.685 --> 00:06:00.745
I'm trying to get more comfortable with it, especially since it's live, and we have no edits.
82
00:06:01.605 --> 00:06:02.105
So,
83
00:06:03.130 --> 00:06:06.430
you know, the the cheat code here is Bitcoin q and a is the Brit,
84
00:06:06.890 --> 00:06:08.590
and Ergo is not the Brit.
85
00:06:09.370 --> 00:06:10.350
And I'm Matt.
86
00:06:11.055 --> 00:06:14.275
So the the really cool thing about Bitcoin q and a, I mean
87
00:06:14.655 --> 00:06:18.275
and and to both of you guys, like, because I feel like you kinda came out of nowhere.
88
00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:24.020
You, like, hit my radar because I'm so focused on on privacy in the Bitcoin world,
89
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:25.860
on Twitter
90
00:06:26.485 --> 00:06:32.264
and in Telegram. And you guy you guys kinda just, like, blasted onto the scene, and you just kept producing.
91
00:06:34.169 --> 00:06:36.510
You know, right now, if if you're watching the livestream,
92
00:06:37.449 --> 00:06:38.350
I have bitcoiner.guideup,
93
00:06:39.930 --> 00:06:45.645
which is is Bitcoin q and a. Like, he's, first of all, a domain hodler just like I am and just
94
00:06:46.025 --> 00:06:46.525
constantly
95
00:06:46.825 --> 00:06:47.725
buys domains.
96
00:06:49.520 --> 00:06:51.620
He he went ham on the dot guides.
97
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:56.740
So he has a he has a bunch of dot guides. Cheap, by the way, for anybody listening.
98
00:06:57.425 --> 00:07:03.365
And Ergo just kept producing too. Like, he he Ergo is our resident chain surveillance
99
00:07:04.065 --> 00:07:04.565
person.
100
00:07:05.270 --> 00:07:09.930
So all of these chain surveillance guys, they go and they spy on all of your Bitcoin transactions,
101
00:07:12.435 --> 00:07:14.534
but they don't talk to you about their techniques.
102
00:07:15.235 --> 00:07:19.095
And and what Ergo does is he does that same that same move,
103
00:07:19.794 --> 00:07:20.775
but he actually
104
00:07:22.450 --> 00:07:25.510
explains what he did and how you can you can
105
00:07:25.890 --> 00:07:27.190
stop that in the future.
106
00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:34.695
So cheers to both of you guys. Thank you for joining me. I'm very grateful to have you for the second ever episode,
107
00:07:35.075 --> 00:07:41.550
and big cheers to all the freaks who are joining us. I'd like to think that Citadel Dispatch is a show that's hosted by the freaks,
108
00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:43.150
and I'm just the moderator.
109
00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:48.750
So to all the freaks out there in the chat right now, I'd like to know what you're drinking.
110
00:07:49.935 --> 00:07:50.435
And,
111
00:07:50.815 --> 00:08:00.330
you know, ergo, Bitcoin q and a, are you drinking with us right now, or what's up there? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm on a Beavottown Neck Oil, which is a,
112
00:08:00.830 --> 00:08:01.330
IPA,
113
00:08:01.870 --> 00:08:15.520
unsure of its origin. I posted a picture on Twitter, and, just like to give 6102 a bit of a shout out because, after I posted that photo, he he he asked me to send him a a lightning invoice so that he could buy my next pack of beers. So cheers to you.
114
00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:25.345
I'm drinking just a little bit of Jameson tonight. Keeping it simple. Yeah. Garvit. I see Garvit in the chat. He's got some Jameson too. Shout out to Garvit. It's
115
00:08:25.725 --> 00:08:27.345
a school night, so nothing fancy.
116
00:08:28.925 --> 00:08:31.165
Yeah. And shout out to, T Dev,
117
00:08:31.485 --> 00:08:33.585
for the Jameson as well.
118
00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:37.950
I know he loves that shit.
119
00:08:38.490 --> 00:08:39.470
So classy.
120
00:08:40.810 --> 00:08:41.630
Yeah. So
121
00:08:42.075 --> 00:08:45.135
the focus today is privacy. It's it's mostly privacy,
122
00:08:46.075 --> 00:08:54.100
and then we have the the the way I wanna do these shows is is my idea is is we have a a a general topic. In this case, it's privacy,
123
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:56.420
and then we have 2 subset topics.
124
00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:58.580
In this case, it's nodes
125
00:09:00.415 --> 00:09:02.515
and our favorite k y c.
126
00:09:03.535 --> 00:09:10.880
So I I I I think the first thing I wanna start with is is is is that preview video that I posted in the beginning,
127
00:09:11.660 --> 00:09:12.800
to start this episode.
128
00:09:13.260 --> 00:09:16.240
If you were listening, obviously, it was just audio.
129
00:09:17.315 --> 00:09:20.454
That was our boy, Alex Gladstein, explaining why
130
00:09:20.834 --> 00:09:21.154
it's
131
00:09:21.795 --> 00:09:29.680
why we do this shit, why it's important that we have private money, that we have money that we can spend without people knowing what we're spending it on,
132
00:09:30.620 --> 00:09:32.240
where your boss doesn't know
133
00:09:32.644 --> 00:09:34.345
what you're spending your daily
134
00:09:35.125 --> 00:09:41.144
transactions on and and and and where the bodega owner doesn't know how much you're making from your boss.
135
00:09:42.649 --> 00:09:46.509
And as cash gets eliminated, this is gonna become more and more important.
136
00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:48.190
So,
137
00:09:48.569 --> 00:09:54.065
I mean, I kinda I I don't really know exactly where I wanna start here, but I I I I I think
138
00:09:54.445 --> 00:09:55.905
I wanna hear why
139
00:09:56.525 --> 00:09:57.505
why do we
140
00:09:58.445 --> 00:10:00.305
why is our focus on Bitcoin?
141
00:10:00.640 --> 00:10:13.135
Why is our focus on Bitcoin privacy? Like, why out of all the things in Bitcoin, why is privacy the thing that you guys have both kind of bidding on to and and decided, like, this is something that you you wanna dedicate yourselves to?
142
00:10:13.595 --> 00:10:16.015
And I I I think we'll start with Ergo here.
143
00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.220
You know, it's
144
00:10:21.880 --> 00:10:25.340
you you kinda hit the nail on the head with the the Gladstein video intro.
145
00:10:26.075 --> 00:10:28.575
You know, he kinda does just a great job
146
00:10:29.195 --> 00:10:31.935
of explaining the current state of affairs.
147
00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:35.980
I mean, I'm kinda like probably a lot of people. You sort of
148
00:10:36.680 --> 00:10:38.460
fall into kind of the libertarian,
149
00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:44.525
you know, kinda gold bug kind of stuff. You know, I mean, at least I have years ago. That's I went through that kinda phase.
150
00:10:45.225 --> 00:10:50.845
And you sort of come out, you know, the other side and you're like, man, shit is pretty fucked up.
151
00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.940
And then you kind of get into, well, you know, what do we do about it? What do I do about it? What can I personally
152
00:10:57.400 --> 00:11:02.395
kind of do to make, you know, my situation better and, you know, know, hopefully improve somebody else's?
153
00:11:03.415 --> 00:11:07.435
And that's sort of where kinda Bitcoin comes in, which, you know, for the
154
00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:12.230
the, the white paper purist, the peer to peer electronic cash.
155
00:11:13.650 --> 00:11:15.030
And, you know,
156
00:11:15.755 --> 00:11:17.295
Bitcoin is pseudonymous.
157
00:11:17.915 --> 00:11:23.135
It's not anonymous even though that was kind of a meme at the beginning of of kind of Bitcoin's history.
158
00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:26.490
And as sort of, you know, the industry
159
00:11:26.950 --> 00:11:30.970
and the, basically, the money involved has has grown up around Bitcoin,
160
00:11:32.065 --> 00:11:34.885
The anonymous meme basically went out the window.
161
00:11:35.505 --> 00:11:38.725
I mean, between the chain surveillance firms, the KYC exchanges,
162
00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.180
It's not, you know, it's not quite that easy
163
00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:45.180
to to to use Bitcoin
164
00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:48.300
relatively privately anymore. That doesn't mean it can't be done,
165
00:11:49.225 --> 00:11:57.500
but it's it's it's certainly getting better and at least better much better than it was when I first started paying attention, I don't know, several years ago.
166
00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.540
So that's sort of why I'm why I'm here.
167
00:12:02.920 --> 00:12:03.720
Yeah. I think,
168
00:12:04.805 --> 00:12:08.265
like Hugo said, you know, the the Gladstein video at the start nails it.
169
00:12:08.885 --> 00:12:11.065
Just so people understand where I'm coming from.
170
00:12:11.605 --> 00:12:13.385
Obviously, live in a western country.
171
00:12:14.420 --> 00:12:15.080
You know,
172
00:12:16.260 --> 00:12:20.200
the government isn't that, until perhaps 2020, isn't that overbearing,
173
00:12:21.195 --> 00:12:31.700
and a and a dying need for for private cash right here and now probably isn't the top of the, priority list for most of the people in the UK or or indeed in the Western
174
00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.660
civilization. But, you know, the there's there's been some examples this year
175
00:12:38.065 --> 00:12:39.205
where private cash,
176
00:12:40.145 --> 00:12:41.445
you know, namely Bitcoin,
177
00:12:42.625 --> 00:12:46.110
has been used in in countries like Belarus where the protests are.
178
00:12:46.670 --> 00:12:49.730
People have been using that to circumvent government restrictions.
179
00:12:50.910 --> 00:12:54.915
And and like I said, you know, it's not the easiest way thing to do privately,
180
00:12:55.455 --> 00:12:56.834
without fucking it up.
181
00:12:57.295 --> 00:12:57.774
But,
182
00:12:59.375 --> 00:13:01.075
I think, you know, the the purpose
183
00:13:01.455 --> 00:13:05.060
aside from it being probably the best money that we've ever had,
184
00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:08.680
is that our ability to to
185
00:13:09.540 --> 00:13:10.520
transact privately,
186
00:13:10.964 --> 00:13:13.785
and to circumvent government controls or restrictions,
187
00:13:15.524 --> 00:13:17.625
seems all too prevalent in 2020,
188
00:13:18.079 --> 00:13:20.160
particularly in in certain parts of the world.
189
00:13:20.800 --> 00:13:22.880
And I think we have to fight for that.
190
00:13:23.680 --> 00:13:27.905
And I I don't think well, I think 2020 is a is a perfect example of
191
00:13:28.545 --> 00:13:31.685
governments flexing their right to to oppress people,
192
00:13:32.065 --> 00:13:32.545
be it,
193
00:13:34.625 --> 00:13:36.110
be it COVID restrictions.
194
00:13:36.410 --> 00:13:41.230
You know, that that could be the tip of the iceberg. And I think, if people take their eye off the ball for too long,
195
00:13:41.690 --> 00:13:45.345
like you said, Mark, cash can quickly very quickly be eroded.
196
00:13:46.045 --> 00:13:48.625
And then what are we left with? You know, we're left with
197
00:13:49.404 --> 00:13:51.665
the thought of central bank. This is currency.
198
00:13:52.045 --> 00:13:52.545
Right?
199
00:13:53.110 --> 00:13:56.170
Yeah. Exactly. Because it's it's only about time before it disappears.
200
00:13:56.630 --> 00:14:12.449
Cash is fucked. Right? Yeah. It's just basically a matter of time. I mean, they broke cash. Right? Like, I I I don't know if that's gonna last. Right? I mean, it's basically been going on for years, the war on cash in quotes. Right? You know, restrictions on how much you can withdraw from the bank,
201
00:14:13.790 --> 00:14:18.449
you know, all kinds of new reporting stuff that you have to do if you wanna deposit to the bank, you know,
202
00:14:18.975 --> 00:14:23.475
structuring laws, all kinds of crazy stuff that that didn't exist, you know,
203
00:14:23.935 --> 00:14:28.675
I don't know, a decade ago, 2 decades ago. You know, nobody really paid attention to that because it didn't matter,
204
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:39.275
and it wasn't affecting people's day to day lives. Now you go to the bank and you tell them you wanna take your money out, and they look at you like you're crazy. What do you mean you want, you know, several $1,000 in cash? They think you're nuts. It sounds pretty suspicious.
205
00:14:39.655 --> 00:14:40.475
Yeah. Yeah.
206
00:14:41.335 --> 00:14:42.955
And, you know, it's a shame because,
207
00:14:43.370 --> 00:14:49.150
I mean, at the end of the day, you know, money is kind of, a form of free speech. You know, who you get to voluntarily
208
00:14:49.530 --> 00:14:50.430
interact with,
209
00:14:51.115 --> 00:14:54.175
says a lot about, you know, kinda who you are as a person and
210
00:14:54.555 --> 00:14:55.055
and,
211
00:14:55.995 --> 00:15:01.110
you know, the the the, you know, the financial independence that you can have for you and and, you know, your family.
212
00:15:05.385 --> 00:15:07.885
Yeah. I mean, I I think what people don't realize
213
00:15:10.105 --> 00:15:14.365
is I mean, I I don't wanna speak for you guys, but the way I view it
214
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.420
is we're being fucked on a 1000000 different
215
00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:26.345
angles. Like, a a million a 1000000 different directions, we're getting fucked privacy wise.
216
00:15:28.485 --> 00:15:38.140
And and Bitcoin is, like, a a reasonable way that we can start taking back taking it back in in, like, an actionable way. Right? Like, taking it back,
217
00:15:38.595 --> 00:15:41.255
taking back some control over our future
218
00:15:41.635 --> 00:15:43.334
without relying on asking
219
00:15:44.435 --> 00:15:46.774
for permission or forgiveness or,
220
00:15:47.089 --> 00:15:49.350
like, please, sir, will you give us some privacy?
221
00:15:51.490 --> 00:15:51.990
And
222
00:15:52.529 --> 00:15:58.475
and and one thing that I really love about you guys, and and and I've been called a hypocrite about it in the past,
223
00:15:59.335 --> 00:16:02.475
because I'm a public facing figure, is that you're both nims.
224
00:16:03.810 --> 00:16:06.710
And I I I think that's a it's a very important aspect
225
00:16:07.490 --> 00:16:10.230
about this revolution is that people are able to
226
00:16:11.145 --> 00:16:12.045
express themselves
227
00:16:12.905 --> 00:16:16.045
and and and provide value and show work,
228
00:16:17.065 --> 00:16:19.645
and insights and influence this movement,
229
00:16:21.550 --> 00:16:26.050
without actually giving up their real names. Like, I I both of you guys are my boys.
230
00:16:26.830 --> 00:16:31.125
I confide in both of you, but I have no idea who you actually are
231
00:16:31.665 --> 00:16:34.805
in the real world. And I I think that's super powerful.
232
00:16:36.190 --> 00:16:37.570
I I'd I'd be curious,
233
00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:41.970
like, no holes barred,
234
00:16:43.070 --> 00:16:48.445
like, hit us with your nim, you you know, your NIM show. Like, why why should people,
235
00:16:50.345 --> 00:16:51.805
why should people use NIMS
236
00:16:52.170 --> 00:16:55.950
online? Why should Twitter make sure that people can use NIMS,
237
00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:08.804
that that does that everyone doesn't have to do this light k y c bullshit? You know, we see this k y c coming into Twitter itself. We have to do phone numbers and stuff like that because they're basically trying to get you to dock yourself.
238
00:17:09.590 --> 00:17:13.370
Why is this important? Why is it important that people can, you know,
239
00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:20.405
talk online and discuss online and broadcast online without giving up their their their true identities?
240
00:17:21.745 --> 00:17:26.164
I I think, you know, ultimately, it's the ability to for for free speech,
241
00:17:27.309 --> 00:17:29.090
without fear of of repercussion.
242
00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:30.049
You know?
243
00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:41.255
You see videos coming out of places like Australia all the time where somebody spoken out against the government on Facebook, and then you can see people, you know, the police are knocking down doors
244
00:17:41.795 --> 00:17:48.230
and taking people away because they've they've spoken their mind against the government and, you know, it's just completely fucked.
245
00:17:48.610 --> 00:17:56.804
So having a NIM online allows you to to speak freely and to spread the message that you want to spread to the people that follow you,
246
00:17:58.645 --> 00:18:00.424
so that you can share information,
247
00:18:00.725 --> 00:18:01.544
share ideas
248
00:18:02.139 --> 00:18:06.320
that perhaps people don't like. But, you know, if you're behind the NIM,
249
00:18:07.580 --> 00:18:11.360
you know, you've you've got as long as you're careful, obviously, you've got pretty much
250
00:18:11.764 --> 00:18:13.705
no, recourse to that whatsoever.
251
00:18:15.284 --> 00:18:18.664
And I think that's that's obviously a powerful thing because
252
00:18:19.524 --> 00:18:21.220
without free speech, what have we got?
253
00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:23.159
Fuck all. We've got China.
254
00:18:25.700 --> 00:18:32.155
Yeah. Q and a kinda nailed it. I mean, it's it sounds like a broken record. Just go on and on and just say, well, free speech, free speech, free speech.
255
00:18:33.495 --> 00:18:36.395
But, you know, that really is kinda what it's about. Right?
256
00:18:37.909 --> 00:18:38.649
You know, I
257
00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:55.520
I I got suggested that I see 6102 is suggesting a book in the, in the comments. What is it? True True Name by Werner Werner Vinay, if if I can pronounce that correctly. He he intentionally picked a a a hard last name to pronounce because he got the pick of his name.
258
00:18:57.280 --> 00:18:59.120
And I I I've been reading,
259
00:18:59.760 --> 00:19:02.180
Conceived in Liberty, which is sort of Rothbard's
260
00:19:03.095 --> 00:19:05.355
historical take on the American Revolution.
261
00:19:06.615 --> 00:19:07.835
And, you know,
262
00:19:08.215 --> 00:19:12.610
when you when we kinda, like, had to read this stuff in high school or, you know, you're taking your mandatory,
263
00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:15.330
you know, history class,
264
00:19:16.110 --> 00:19:21.465
you kinda didn't get it. You know? And now that, you know, I've been, you know, around for
265
00:19:21.845 --> 00:19:22.905
a good bit longer,
266
00:19:23.205 --> 00:19:25.225
and the world is slowly going to shit,
267
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:26.860
you can kind of appreciate
268
00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:41.005
what the people were going through. And you kind of see sort of a back and forth where, like, okay, the British government pushes back against, the American people or the the the governors of the Virginia colony push back against the people. And there sort of is this, like, ratcheting effect where
269
00:19:41.385 --> 00:19:41.885
eventually
270
00:19:42.264 --> 00:19:43.725
there's, like, a breaking point.
271
00:19:46.010 --> 00:19:52.750
And, you know, it was probably, like, a good bit easier to sort of do that kind of stuff back then because you weren't just surveilled 247.
272
00:19:54.305 --> 00:20:00.885
You know? And now it's it's like as soon as you sort of take a misstep with with your identity online,
273
00:20:01.490 --> 00:20:09.185
you know, you can sort of get prosecuted by not even just sort of the government, but, you know, the, the social justice warrior lynch mob. It's it's just
274
00:20:09.585 --> 00:20:13.525
it's just like a total Orwellian dystopia, you know, that we've been seeing lately.
275
00:20:14.305 --> 00:20:21.830
So yeah. I mean, a NIM a NIM protects you. It protects the people that you care about. It allows you to sort of say what you want to say,
276
00:20:23.090 --> 00:20:27.655
you know, with with some level of privacy, at least against sort of like a majority of people. People.
277
00:20:28.195 --> 00:20:49.015
And that comes with some, you know, additional challenges. You have to kind of start from scratch. If you had a reputation, you don't have, like, a full name to sort of fall back on, you know, a name and a face to fall back on. You know? So, like, if you if you step out of line and you screw it up, then, you know, it's it's really hard to get that sort of trust back. So, you know, there's a little bit of, like, accountability for NIMs too,
278
00:20:49.875 --> 00:20:54.695
where, like, you know, if you fuck up, it's it's just hard to come back. You know? So,
279
00:20:55.550 --> 00:20:56.050
yeah.
280
00:20:57.550 --> 00:21:02.435
You know, well, first of all, I see we have team Monero's in the comments. I we hear you guys.
281
00:21:03.315 --> 00:21:07.175
We're not gonna consider him out, it's argue. It will it will be discussed,
282
00:21:08.115 --> 00:21:10.695
but I'm just trying to stay on topic right now.
283
00:21:11.850 --> 00:21:13.789
I we have this comment from Dreeman.
284
00:21:14.169 --> 00:21:22.045
I don't know if I pronounced your name right. That's the beauty of NIMS is is you can you can make a name that's hard to pronounce. My favorite task that we
285
00:21:22.425 --> 00:21:28.445
do of the Nodle team who just created a nim that's just, like, fucking impossible to pronounce just to fuck with people,
286
00:21:29.145 --> 00:21:30.205
especially podcasters.
287
00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:39.340
He's asking me the easier question is why self docs? No great answers if you're just a pleb participating in learning and not trying to monetize your presence.
288
00:21:40.664 --> 00:21:45.885
If my goal so I feel like this is directed at me. I'm the person in this conversation
289
00:21:46.265 --> 00:21:49.450
that has been just picking up on my comments.
290
00:21:51.350 --> 00:21:54.410
I'm I'm the person in this conversation that did a self docs.
291
00:21:57.055 --> 00:22:03.540
I mean, if if if if the expectation is that I did it to monetize my presence, I'm doing a very poor job at it.
292
00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:10.600
The Dan Helds of the world and the Poms of the world are monetizing themselves way better than I am. I've left a lot of stats on the table.
293
00:22:12.075 --> 00:22:13.455
I I think, unfortunately,
294
00:22:15.515 --> 00:22:17.135
the the the average person
295
00:22:18.395 --> 00:22:29.625
trusts and they shouldn't trust me, and I say don't trust me, but they trust a person that is is self doxed more than a NIM. And I think there's a place here in the in the in the Bitcoin world
296
00:22:30.165 --> 00:22:30.985
for people
297
00:22:31.445 --> 00:22:33.225
who are public individuals
298
00:22:34.085 --> 00:22:34.825
that help,
299
00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:46.605
you know, bring exposure to the NIMs. Right? And this is one of the reasons why I launched Citadel Dispatch. Right? And this is one of the reasons why we're having a conversation here with me and 2 NIMs that I respect,
300
00:22:47.305 --> 00:22:48.445
is because I think
301
00:22:49.225 --> 00:22:53.005
that, otherwise, we're just gonna end up in a world where we just have all the suits,
302
00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:55.950
and they're commanding the conversation because,
303
00:22:56.650 --> 00:22:58.350
they naturally get more
304
00:22:59.370 --> 00:23:14.060
influence, larger audience. You know, you end up you end up in the situation where and they don't talk about privacy. They just won't they will not discuss any of the important things because they're taboo topics. And I I I think it's really important that we have people that are publicly talking about these so called taboo topics.
305
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:21.245
And I I I respect the risk, and that's why I tell people that they shouldn't they shouldn't self dox themselves unless they
306
00:23:22.664 --> 00:23:32.310
think through it very carefully. And even then, you probably still shouldn't do it. Like, on some mornings, I wake up in the morning. I'm like, why the fuck should I be like, I shouldn't even talk to myself.
307
00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:36.870
And then other mornings, like, I'm I'm just telling people that they're pieces of shit,
308
00:23:37.385 --> 00:23:39.085
publicly on Twitter. So,
309
00:23:39.705 --> 00:23:43.085
I I I think that there is there there's room for both,
310
00:23:44.390 --> 00:23:52.010
but you should really question it. And people should realize that before I self doxed myself, I have had, like, a 1000000 nymphs, and I still have, like, 4 nymphs. So,
311
00:23:52.845 --> 00:23:56.945
it's it's it's important that you you cover yourself. And then the second thing is,
312
00:23:57.725 --> 00:24:03.780
I mean, what Ergo was saying about previous revolutions and stuff, I mean, the status quo used to be basically privacy.
313
00:24:04.800 --> 00:24:10.455
You know, you were hiding amongst the crowd, like, your non set was the colonial Americas or whatever the fuck.
314
00:24:11.495 --> 00:24:11.995
Nowadays,
315
00:24:12.375 --> 00:24:18.635
it's just the status quo is no privacy whatsoever. Everywhere you go, you just get fucking tracked. You get tracked everywhere.
316
00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:21.930
You're you're sharing too much information.
317
00:24:22.950 --> 00:24:28.890
You're connected to, like, 6 different social media platforms that are really surveillance, and you're just all over the fucking place.
318
00:24:29.645 --> 00:24:35.985
And I there's a middle ground here. There's a middle ground here where people respect privacy, and we don't have this
319
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:37.620
this oversharing
320
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.980
in in in a way that that that like, I think people just aren't aware of the trade offs, basically.
321
00:24:46.725 --> 00:24:52.105
I think there's also the security aspect of of everything as well. And one of the main reasons that I started out
322
00:24:52.539 --> 00:24:55.039
with a NIM on Twitter was far before,
323
00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.480
long before I went down the the privacy rabbit hole
324
00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:05.625
was just, you know, worrying about, you know, if if I do eventually end up with a significant stash of Bitcoin,
325
00:25:06.165 --> 00:25:09.880
and I'm I'm out there with my public name and and somebody's
326
00:25:10.419 --> 00:25:12.120
somehow tracked my name,
327
00:25:12.580 --> 00:25:14.360
finds out where I live, you know,
328
00:25:14.820 --> 00:25:34.350
that's paying a big fat target on my on my back. So that was the the main reason that I did it. The kind of the privacy thing afterwards was just a nice bonus after I'd realized that I played a bit of a blinder really. And and and so I was, you know, really glad that I'd sort of taken that step really. So for anybody listening out there, I think, you know, if you if you're thinking about,
329
00:25:34.730 --> 00:25:38.465
doing it and you wanna interact and stuff, a Nim is the way to go, 100%.
330
00:25:43.645 --> 00:25:51.080
I love that. I I think the listener should know that Truman wanted me to know that he wasn't trying to throw me under the bus there. So,
331
00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:58.515
okay. So, I mean, I so I I I think, you know, one of the things about Bitcoin privacy
332
00:25:58.815 --> 00:26:04.835
that makes it so difficult is is that it is very much inter you know, connected to
333
00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:10.130
to all of our other privacy elements. Right? Privacy on the Internet. Privacy on the Internet is difficult.
334
00:26:10.590 --> 00:26:16.465
There you know, any anyone who tells you that you're gonna have perfect privacy while on the Internet is full of shit.
335
00:26:17.165 --> 00:26:21.265
Someone who tells you that it's easy to use Twitter in a way that doesn't dox yourself,
336
00:26:22.340 --> 00:26:24.760
is full of shit. It's very difficult process,
337
00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:31.465
with caveats all the time. Like, I I mean, I know 6102 is listening right now or, boy,
338
00:26:32.265 --> 00:26:43.620
there was a moment, like, 4 weeks ago where, like, all of a sudden, he deleted his telegram, and, like, he made a fuck up. Like, we all know he made a fuck up, but we don't know what the fuck up was. But he, like, made the fuck up, and he just, like, tried to just, like, nuke everything.
339
00:26:44.560 --> 00:26:51.745
You know? Like, you're going you're going to, like, emergency mode. So so in in in Bitcoin land, to be private
340
00:26:52.684 --> 00:27:03.010
also interacts with all this metadata. Right? And you have, like, a a 1000000 different pieces of metadata that's all pulling together to to basically create the situation of this is
341
00:27:03.375 --> 00:27:07.475
this is your Bitcoin transaction history. This is your interaction with Bitcoin.
342
00:27:07.855 --> 00:27:09.475
The danger is with Bitcoin,
343
00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:13.210
our transactions are on a ledger forever.
344
00:27:13.830 --> 00:27:16.010
Like, if we're proper Bitcoin bulls,
345
00:27:16.950 --> 00:27:18.250
like, this this
346
00:27:19.015 --> 00:27:19.515
information,
347
00:27:19.975 --> 00:27:21.355
our transaction history,
348
00:27:21.655 --> 00:27:25.835
we sent Bitcoin to to this this address from this address
349
00:27:26.380 --> 00:27:28.720
is is there literally forever.
350
00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:36.705
And if you mix that with the all the metadata that we're leaving everywhere else, all of a sudden you end up in a situation,
351
00:27:38.044 --> 00:27:40.145
where you have where you have,
352
00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:49.080
like, a a a real issue. I mean, you you you have an issue where where Bitcoin could be something Bitcoin can go 2 ways.
353
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:50.600
Right? It could go
354
00:27:50.904 --> 00:27:56.684
it can go and and it could go 2 ways at the same time for 2 different people in the same existence,
355
00:27:57.144 --> 00:28:02.320
where one person, it is their private money, and with other person, it's their surveillance coin.
356
00:28:03.340 --> 00:28:14.045
And and I think people don't realize this. Like, the the the beauty of Bitcoin is that it's voluntary in nature, but the the the the negative of Bitcoin privacy is that it's also voluntary in nature.
357
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:24.700
Yeah. You know, I'd when I started looking at sort of on chain stuff
358
00:28:26.054 --> 00:28:27.274
a while back now,
359
00:28:28.054 --> 00:28:40.810
you know, I started from just really not understanding anything. You know? People would talk about how important privacy was and I didn't I didn't know what that really meant. Just, you know, privacy is good, you know, don't reuse addresses, and that was kinda like the end of it.
360
00:28:42.010 --> 00:28:47.705
You know, then I started diving into sort of the CoinJoin protocols and, you know, but in the process, I sort of picked up,
361
00:28:48.005 --> 00:28:48.585
you know,
362
00:28:49.045 --> 00:28:54.210
what it sort of means and what's really out there and what's really available kind of on chain.
363
00:28:54.990 --> 00:29:04.385
And I think, you know, people know, okay, you know, I I send Bitcoin to a pseudonymous address now. I think that that's that's pretty well sunk in.
364
00:29:05.725 --> 00:29:16.509
But what people, you know, sort of still struggle with is is, like, you know, if I wanted to send q and a, you know, a a $30 tip for making this very nice, you know, no KYC only guide,
365
00:29:17.635 --> 00:29:27.080
I would reveal, you know, some of my UTXOs to him you know, him. He might not know they're from me unless I sort of told him that, but he would know that somebody had sent him, you know,
366
00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:29.400
$30 worth of Bitcoin and,
367
00:29:29.860 --> 00:29:35.375
you know, he could sort of infer what their balance was if they were doing, you know, kind of these simple spends.
368
00:29:36.875 --> 00:29:37.775
You know, so
369
00:29:38.370 --> 00:29:54.265
so, you know, the the the on chain stuff is is really tough to kind of combat. That doesn't mean it can't be done. And I sort of started off about this a while ago, but it's gotten, you know, significantly better with some of the CoinJoin implementations that we have now. It's, you know, it's it's sort of usable for most people.
370
00:29:54.850 --> 00:30:03.670
But that doesn't mean that you still can't screw up, and there still aren't kind of a list, you know, a a handful of things that most people, you know, if you just don't do those things,
371
00:30:04.285 --> 00:30:08.945
you know, they're gonna be, like, way better off and you're not gonna have to, you know,
372
00:30:09.405 --> 00:30:23.350
stress the shit out of yourself about it. And, you know, I mean, Matt's got the no KYC up. And that's, you know, really kind of the, you know, the the start of it all is is, you know, don't let the state or someone really anyone know,
373
00:30:23.955 --> 00:30:25.255
you know, your purchase history.
374
00:30:25.795 --> 00:30:31.175
That's that's like it's not technically possible because somebody's always gonna know that they sent you coins, but, you know,
375
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:38.725
the the metadata that comes along with that, your driver's license, your passport photo, your whatever, you know, all of a sudden we wind up with a hack and now
376
00:30:39.205 --> 00:30:40.184
the ledger hack
377
00:30:40.565 --> 00:30:42.345
and and your your data's everywhere.
378
00:30:43.765 --> 00:30:44.664
You know, so
379
00:30:45.044 --> 00:30:49.310
I I think really, you know, no KYC is kinda where a lot of this stuff starts off.
380
00:30:51.290 --> 00:30:54.670
I think that needs to be step 1, doesn't it? You know, if you're gonna,
381
00:30:55.210 --> 00:31:04.735
try and do Bitcoin in a private way, like you just touched on this, there's there's quite a lot of pitfalls. Yes. There's absolutely, you know, a lot of tools out there that that can help,
382
00:31:06.590 --> 00:31:11.890
help you regain some privacy when you're on chain, you know, or some of the the CoinJoin implementation,
383
00:31:12.909 --> 00:31:13.409
Whirlpool.
384
00:31:14.394 --> 00:31:18.575
Well, I think step 1, you know, if nobody knows that you've got Bitcoin,
385
00:31:18.875 --> 00:31:20.414
you're you're literally starting
386
00:31:20.875 --> 00:31:24.780
10, 15 paces ahead of everybody else because you you are
387
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:25.640
almost
388
00:31:26.520 --> 00:31:31.500
well, there's only one other person, and that's your trade counterpart that knows that you own that amount of Bitcoin.
389
00:31:32.505 --> 00:31:34.985
If you sort of start stacking that with,
390
00:31:35.465 --> 00:31:37.404
you know, throwing those stats through Whirlpool,
391
00:31:38.424 --> 00:31:39.224
you know, with the
392
00:31:39.784 --> 00:31:40.924
party could be Ergo.
393
00:31:42.810 --> 00:31:44.990
And he could be chain analyzing you.
394
00:31:45.770 --> 00:31:47.550
That's where Whirlpool comes in.
395
00:31:48.410 --> 00:31:57.665
Like like I mean, one of the things I've been doing recently is is when someone sends me a tip, and I know it's the person who sends me the tip, I chain analysis them.
396
00:31:58.620 --> 00:32:04.380
And, which is, like, super fucked up. I'm like, I appreciate all you guys who send me like, buy me a drink or whatever. Well
397
00:32:05.365 --> 00:32:31.925
But but it's There's a lot of value in that. Realize, right, when they send you this payment that they're they're exposing this metadata to you. Yeah. And there's a lot of value in that. Like, I part of the problem when I try to discuss, you know, kinda chain analysis just sort of in general is that, yeah, people know, okay, privacy is important and the chain is transparent and all of this other stuff. But, you know, until you sort of really do it and so you sort of really look at, you know, what is really available on chain
398
00:32:32.529 --> 00:32:34.630
and you do it with, like, some context,
399
00:32:35.330 --> 00:32:45.735
you know, that is sort of like the the most important starting part, you know, some context. In this case, your context was the payment that you received. Like, I I got a donation from, you know, Pleb,
400
00:32:46.195 --> 00:32:49.174
and let's see if I can't figure out what exchange he's using.
401
00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:51.860
I mean, that's that's basically, you know,
402
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.965
pretty easy, you know, for the most part. You know, you're maybe a few hops away from an exchange, and that's
403
00:32:58.445 --> 00:33:02.225
it's it's not hard to find. What I've noticed is what most people do
404
00:33:02.765 --> 00:33:03.265
is
405
00:33:03.804 --> 00:33:08.430
and it's hard to blame them. It's it's like the cut mentality of of of privacy
406
00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:13.390
is that they pay me from their exchange account. So I get a lot of, like, Cash App donations,
407
00:33:14.625 --> 00:33:18.085
and it's because they know they know in their head. They're, like,
408
00:33:18.705 --> 00:33:22.884
I will leak private information to Matt or whoever I pay
409
00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:30.549
if if I send them a regular Bitcoin payment. But if I send it from this exchange account, then I'm it's it's like custodial privacy.
410
00:33:30.995 --> 00:33:38.410
Right? It's like they're they're trusting they're like, they know Cash App knows, but at least Matt doesn't know what all my other balances are. Right?
411
00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:48.555
And and this is what concerns me because I see this becoming the norm. I see this being, like, the oh, if you want a private payment, then you just pay with strike. You know, you just pay with Cash App.
412
00:33:49.655 --> 00:33:50.155
And
413
00:33:51.015 --> 00:33:52.315
and and then the regulator
414
00:33:52.695 --> 00:33:55.035
and the KYC entity knows,
415
00:33:55.429 --> 00:33:59.049
but the the average external observer has no idea.
416
00:33:59.510 --> 00:34:03.535
Right? So there's there's different nuances there to to Bitcoin privacy. Right?
417
00:34:04.975 --> 00:34:11.635
I think that's half of the problem is that and I count myself in this, you know, probably a little under 12 months ago is that people
418
00:34:12.089 --> 00:34:14.670
literally have no clue the amount of,
419
00:34:15.210 --> 00:34:18.510
breadcrumbs that they'll leave on chain by their different spending habits.
420
00:34:19.224 --> 00:34:23.484
You know, even if you got somebody who's you using HD wallet that doesn't reuse addresses,
421
00:34:24.665 --> 00:34:28.365
you but if but they might be using a wallet that doesn't have coin control.
422
00:34:29.690 --> 00:34:32.210
If they're sort of merging UTXOs from different,
423
00:34:32.650 --> 00:34:33.150
sources,
424
00:34:34.890 --> 00:34:38.535
you know, it might for somebody with ergo skills, it's it's takes,
425
00:34:39.095 --> 00:34:42.395
5 minutes, you know, to tear that transaction history apart.
426
00:34:42.695 --> 00:34:46.555
But most most people are using this stuff. They just have absolutely no idea
427
00:34:47.130 --> 00:34:47.369
the
428
00:34:48.010 --> 00:34:53.230
of the different sort of, trails that they can be leading behind them. And I think that's one of the
429
00:34:55.345 --> 00:34:56.725
hurdles that we've got,
430
00:34:57.745 --> 00:35:01.845
in Bitcoin privacy is to to how how do we raise that awareness
431
00:35:02.225 --> 00:35:05.560
of, you know, this everything that you do on chain
432
00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:24.010
is completely transparent. And and so you need to be so careful as to, you know, using coin control, using CoinJoin to obfuscate that transaction history. But, you know, it's not easy at the end of the day, and and and that's something that I'm trying to get across to people is that just just think before you hit send. What is that bullet doing in the background?
433
00:35:24.310 --> 00:35:26.330
You might be tripping yourself up.
434
00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:28.570
I mean, look. I I think, ultimately,
435
00:35:28.925 --> 00:35:32.305
I mean, this is one of the reasons why I think we've all gravitated to samurai,
436
00:35:33.725 --> 00:35:34.625
is is that
437
00:35:35.005 --> 00:35:37.345
is that there's a lot of nuance here, and if
438
00:35:37.740 --> 00:35:37.980
you're
439
00:35:38.540 --> 00:35:42.560
we understand we're never gonna be able to explain this nuance to the average user.
440
00:35:43.340 --> 00:35:50.615
So so, really, ultimately, what we need is we need our apps that we interact with Bitcoin to to kind of automate best practices,
441
00:35:51.155 --> 00:35:52.695
to try and make sure that
442
00:35:53.155 --> 00:35:54.775
on on an average situation,
443
00:35:55.300 --> 00:36:02.280
you're not leaking that much information, and that it's it's it's gonna work as good as it possibly can, or at least, like, you know, 90%
444
00:36:03.075 --> 00:36:06.535
apart from if if you did critical thinking and and had to do it yourself.
445
00:36:06.994 --> 00:36:08.775
Because to expect people to actually
446
00:36:09.315 --> 00:36:09.815
use,
447
00:36:11.109 --> 00:36:18.730
you know, actually think about every payment they make is, like, is a fucking it's a hard task. Like, that is not an easy task even for people like us, I think.
448
00:36:19.035 --> 00:36:24.495
And I think we know that more than other people because we try, and we try and think about it all the time. Like, I I
449
00:36:24.955 --> 00:36:31.329
end up with UTXOs where I'm, like, I know what the fuck I'm gonna do with this UTXO. Like, I don't know what the fuck to do with it.
450
00:36:31.950 --> 00:36:35.569
I'm just gonna leave that there, and I'll I'll I'll reassess it in 6 months.
451
00:36:36.349 --> 00:36:36.849
So
452
00:36:37.215 --> 00:36:42.595
so we need wallets to, like, actually do best practices. But before we get there, I just wanna go back to k y c because
453
00:36:43.135 --> 00:36:45.795
k y c is fucking insidious. Right? And and
454
00:36:46.150 --> 00:36:52.010
insidious. And and what we see is KYC is infecting our whole lives. Like,
455
00:36:52.630 --> 00:37:01.625
people don't realize. They think it's a Bitcoiners don't realize. They think it's a Bitcoin issue. It's not a Bitcoin issue. You've just come to accept it in every other aspect of your life
456
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.580
where Bitcoin is the one aspect there where maybe you questioned it. Maybe you think, like, is it wrong?
457
00:37:10.055 --> 00:37:14.155
So I understand the power power of memes. The power of memes dictates
458
00:37:14.535 --> 00:37:16.715
that there should be no nuance in a meme.
459
00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:21.560
It's not k y c is bad. It's no k y c only.
460
00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:22.840
Okay?
461
00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:28.815
But what if a person is is receiving money into their bank account? They're they're
462
00:37:29.115 --> 00:37:30.175
they're they're paid
463
00:37:30.715 --> 00:37:32.335
via KYC means.
464
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:39.460
They're not paid in cash. They're paid in KYC means. Their check is directly deposited into their bank account on a weekly basis.
465
00:37:42.174 --> 00:37:43.155
To that person,
466
00:37:44.415 --> 00:37:45.555
I think, personally,
467
00:37:46.575 --> 00:37:52.580
the the real the the the the the the scenario there is you reduce your KYC
468
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:53.460
exposure.
469
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.740
You only have 1 KYC onramp that you that you've signed up for,
470
00:37:59.365 --> 00:38:07.224
and you basically funnel your salary through that KYC onramp. Like, I do you guys disagree on that? Like, do you think that that I should basically,
471
00:38:07.690 --> 00:38:13.470
let's say let let's use me as an example. Let's say I'm getting my salaries as paid direct deposit into my
472
00:38:14.010 --> 00:38:15.150
my checking account.
473
00:38:16.075 --> 00:38:24.095
Am I better off withdrawing that to cash and then going and trying to buy, you know, buy Bitcoin with cash or just withdrawing it and then going into Whirlpool
474
00:38:24.450 --> 00:38:27.670
and basically withdrawing it as as CoinJoin UTXOs. Right?
475
00:38:30.370 --> 00:38:37.355
I guess it depends. Yeah. It depends on it depends on what you wanna I mean, like, the way I sort of look at it is
476
00:38:37.974 --> 00:38:40.875
it depends on if you're willing to be noncompliant
477
00:38:41.430 --> 00:38:42.170
or not.
478
00:38:42.870 --> 00:38:50.250
You know, if you're gonna, you know, stack stats and, you know, dollar cost average on your, you know, your exchange,
479
00:38:52.695 --> 00:38:53.195
And,
480
00:38:53.734 --> 00:39:02.660
you know, you're prepared. Like, you sort of know what the repercussions are. It's like, hey. I I sold my soul for the, you know, the the 2% markup instead of the 10% markup.
481
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.099
You know, you just just don't be, you know,
482
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:13.055
fooling yourself that, you know, coin joining is gonna sort of erase, you know, all that KYC history.
483
00:39:13.835 --> 00:39:20.500
You you can coin join and you probably should still coin join, You know, that gives you the optionality at least. You know,
484
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.780
at least it gives you an optionality to be kinda noncompliant.
485
00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:25.860
So so
486
00:39:26.465 --> 00:39:30.405
this is why I bring it up. Right? Because I respect the fuck out of you, and I I agree with you
487
00:39:30.785 --> 00:39:35.445
that that I think the freaks don't realize. I think Bitcoiners in general don't realize
488
00:39:36.450 --> 00:39:41.670
that, obviously, once you KYC, you're never gonna remove that record, you know. Ergo bought
489
00:39:42.690 --> 00:39:44.950
50,000,000 sats. He bought this much Bitcoin.
490
00:39:45.805 --> 00:39:47.825
You're never gonna remove that much record.
491
00:39:50.045 --> 00:39:51.745
But but you can mitigate,
492
00:39:52.809 --> 00:39:59.789
you know, forward privacy. And you can you can you can use CoinJoin, you can use Whirlpool, and you can you can make a situation
493
00:40:00.329 --> 00:40:01.549
for yourself where
494
00:40:02.475 --> 00:40:05.215
where your future transactions are in tracked. And
495
00:40:05.675 --> 00:40:08.575
and and we we spoke earlier about the death of cash.
496
00:40:09.115 --> 00:40:09.615
Right?
497
00:40:10.210 --> 00:40:12.630
If you were trying to remove 15, $10,000
498
00:40:13.170 --> 00:40:14.230
from your bank account,
499
00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:21.945
it is way more difficult to withdraw that as cash and then move into Bitcoin than it is to go into Bitcoin and go into CoinJoin.
500
00:40:23.445 --> 00:40:24.825
So in a lot of ways,
501
00:40:25.765 --> 00:40:27.785
the exit of the KYC system
502
00:40:28.510 --> 00:40:35.570
is easier through Bitcoin. It's probably one of the reasons why they're so fucking anal about KYC on on Bitcoin on ramps. Right?
503
00:40:36.105 --> 00:40:48.560
Well, is it one way? Is it one way out of KYC? Are you gonna Yeah. Yeah. So so so in. Right? Right. No. No. So my motto is so so what I think is is I think there's a place for a single exit ramp of fiat.
504
00:40:49.740 --> 00:40:54.240
Right? That is KYC. Like, you pick 1 you you you pick a single
505
00:40:54.755 --> 00:41:00.535
a single entity that you you're trusting with your KYC information. You you assume they're gonna give it to your government,
506
00:41:01.555 --> 00:41:02.840
and you hope they don't
507
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:04.140
get hacked.
508
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:10.460
And you pick that one entity, and it's just a single on ramp. It's it's just how you enter Bitcoin,
509
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:18.285
and then you go into coin join. I mean, hope is my favorite strategy. Hope is the best. Hope.com, you know, Michael Sailor. There you go.
510
00:41:19.385 --> 00:41:21.724
What do you what do you got what do you got to say q and a?
511
00:41:23.430 --> 00:41:30.970
Look. I think we've gotta be practical about this. There's nobody gonna gonna walk into Bitcoin and go, right. You know? I'm I'm gonna go straight to BISK.
512
00:41:31.744 --> 00:41:35.605
Oh, shit. I need some I need some SaaS already. Yeah. I can't buy on Bisc.
513
00:41:36.065 --> 00:41:41.580
Okay. I'm gonna go HODL HODL. Okay. They don't serve US customers. So, you know, as much I'm a big,
514
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:43.100
NoCo SEO advocate,
515
00:41:44.040 --> 00:41:47.295
it's it's definitely nowhere near as easy as as,
516
00:41:47.994 --> 00:41:54.015
downloading Cash App and throwing in some bank details. You know, I get that. And and that's the way that most people are gonna do it.
517
00:41:55.390 --> 00:41:56.770
As long as people understand
518
00:41:57.230 --> 00:42:04.695
the the the trade offs of, like you said, Matt, there there'll always be that record that, you know, Matt bought 10,000,000 SATS,
519
00:42:06.195 --> 00:42:07.015
at this date,
520
00:42:07.474 --> 00:42:12.670
and he withdrew to this address. You know, he might go and join afterwards and and get some great forward privacy,
521
00:42:13.850 --> 00:42:14.670
which is good.
522
00:42:14.970 --> 00:42:16.750
You've also got to look at the forward
523
00:42:19.205 --> 00:42:21.385
risks as well depending on your jurisdiction.
524
00:42:22.005 --> 00:42:22.905
There could be,
525
00:42:23.925 --> 00:42:24.905
issues around
526
00:42:27.220 --> 00:42:28.440
future wealth tax.
527
00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:31.320
There could be issues join itself
528
00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:35.400
is obviously visible. Right? So if the coin join becomes illegal,
529
00:42:36.785 --> 00:42:38.885
then you could have that issue as well.
530
00:42:39.425 --> 00:42:43.765
I mean, you said this yourself. I mean, if coin join becomes illegal, we're all fucked.
531
00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:49.609
Right. I think Bitcoin loses its value prop at that point, to be honest. Of course. If it becomes illegal in in the
532
00:42:49.910 --> 00:42:52.010
majority of the developed world, let's say.
533
00:42:53.744 --> 00:42:55.045
Yeah. For sure. Definitely.
534
00:42:55.585 --> 00:42:58.325
And then you've also got the the the sort of,
535
00:42:58.865 --> 00:43:00.250
I'd like to hope, less,
536
00:43:00.730 --> 00:43:02.590
likely outcomes like a 6102.
537
00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:07.050
The threat model of that as well.
538
00:43:07.370 --> 00:43:10.030
Again, you know, if we wind it right back to the purchase,
539
00:43:10.365 --> 00:43:15.485
if nobody knows you've got Bitcoin, you are so much more less at risk of these types of,
540
00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:17.220
taxes or,
541
00:43:18.180 --> 00:43:21.160
attacks on the network and and your personal wealth.
542
00:43:21.700 --> 00:43:22.200
So,
543
00:43:22.820 --> 00:43:26.275
you know, definitely not the easiest way to get on board.
544
00:43:26.835 --> 00:43:36.990
But I will say that once you've done it once, it's it's nowhere near as bad as some people on Twitter would make you believe. Well, I mean, look. I love I love Bisc. Bisc is fantastic.
545
00:43:39.850 --> 00:43:40.350
I
546
00:43:41.225 --> 00:43:45.805
I I I I think that Bisk shares a lot of the issues that Bitcoin has
547
00:43:46.185 --> 00:43:49.165
in that there's, like, a shit ton of nuance there. Right?
548
00:43:50.349 --> 00:43:53.890
With with, like, this, you're a lot of the users are still
549
00:43:54.910 --> 00:43:55.410
doing
550
00:43:56.825 --> 00:44:00.125
bank transfers. Right? So they're doing KYC to KYC transfers.
551
00:44:01.464 --> 00:44:06.445
They're exposing themselves to both their bank, the partner bank, and the partner that they're trading with.
552
00:44:07.290 --> 00:44:07.790
So
553
00:44:08.490 --> 00:44:11.790
really, like, the best economy is the cash in Bitcoin economy. Right?
554
00:44:12.410 --> 00:44:20.865
I just don't think the majority of people, at least in the developed world, I I don't think the majority of freaks that are listening are getting paid in cash. Like, I just don't think that's happening.
555
00:44:21.244 --> 00:44:25.390
So I think they're getting KYC regardless. I think they're already getting hit with the KYC.
556
00:44:26.410 --> 00:44:29.470
So then the question is if they're already getting hit with the KYC,
557
00:44:29.930 --> 00:44:31.470
if they want to be absolutely
558
00:44:32.275 --> 00:44:34.855
if if they're if they're good about it and they're not
559
00:44:35.875 --> 00:44:37.655
exposing themselves as a Bitcoiner
560
00:44:38.595 --> 00:44:45.160
publicly in any other way, then yes, by all means, like, figure out ways to convert that cash into Bitcoin,
561
00:44:46.180 --> 00:44:50.405
locally and and make it happen, you know. And then you don't have any paper record of
562
00:44:50.965 --> 00:44:55.145
it. But if if you're in any way kind of publicly a Bitcoiner,
563
00:44:57.285 --> 00:45:01.450
in this super connected world that we're in and you have KYC funds already,
564
00:45:01.910 --> 00:45:09.609
like, is there that much extra risk to come in via KYC if you if you then automatically throw it into to Whirlpool?
565
00:45:16.474 --> 00:45:17.615
Either of you guys.
566
00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:21.960
First off, I I think kinda q and a
567
00:45:22.260 --> 00:45:27.880
nailed it before. Right? You know, it's really hard to get people into Bitcoin kind of in the first place. Yeah. You know, they might
568
00:45:28.355 --> 00:45:29.734
hear about the news of,
569
00:45:30.434 --> 00:45:35.734
you know, the the price the recent price rally and and they might be you know, your friends might be hitting you up about,
570
00:45:36.090 --> 00:45:38.590
yo, you're the Bitcoiner guy, you know, teach me to Bitcoin.
571
00:45:39.850 --> 00:45:42.110
You know, and this sort of falls onto,
572
00:45:42.490 --> 00:45:45.070
you know, the plebs, you know, and
573
00:45:45.595 --> 00:45:58.109
some of you, you know yeah. I mean, it it is an asset to hold and it is going to appreciate in value. And and I don't think that there's, you know, there's there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I think that we all hope that Bitcoin will appreciate in value. But,
574
00:45:58.809 --> 00:46:09.365
you know, knowing what you know, right, or the people that are, like, you know, in the chat, you know, here's here's a good one. What part is BTC pins, he's saying selling shit has been my favorite way to get KYC free Bitcoin.
575
00:46:09.670 --> 00:46:13.370
You know? So that's that's like the attitude that I just love to see.
576
00:46:13.910 --> 00:46:16.890
So when you're like when you're teaching people about Bitcoin,
577
00:46:17.430 --> 00:46:30.150
you're explaining it to your friends, I mean, the best way to sort of explain it is is, you know, digital cash. You know? And I've explained it to people that way that I didn't think would really get it at first, and they've sort of it's clicked for them.
578
00:46:30.530 --> 00:46:37.910
You know, I've gone through the whole, you know, privacy shtick and why, you know, censorship resistance is so important. And and, you know,
579
00:46:38.825 --> 00:46:58.325
I when when newbies hit me up now, it's it's not yeah. I mean, you gotta get you gotta get in. You gotta get in. You gotta get in. It's it's, you know, when you're ready, you know, I'll be here, you know, to help you along the way. And that's sort of one of the things that, you know, everybody else can do is is guide their friends and family kind of, you know, away from KYC
580
00:46:58.625 --> 00:47:08.960
and actually act as a little bit of their you know, may possibly act as their Bitcoin dealer. You know? We're sort of getting to the phase where a lot of people have been around for a little while, and it might start to make sense to sell.
581
00:47:09.580 --> 00:47:10.960
You know, I'm gonna get chastised
582
00:47:13.025 --> 00:47:18.164
for that. But They keep asking me. They keep asking me. They're like, Matt, you're my boy. You've been showing me Bitcoin. You love privacy.
583
00:47:18.570 --> 00:47:22.430
Hit me with some KYC free sats, and I go, fuck you. You can't have me.
584
00:47:24.330 --> 00:47:25.230
Charge a premium.
585
00:47:29.825 --> 00:47:42.330
But, no, I do agree. I a 100% agree with pretty much everything you just said. And I I think, ultimately, what people don't realize is I think this is growing pains. Like, I think as more people have Bitcoin and as it develops farther,
586
00:47:43.045 --> 00:47:44.744
we are going to have a more,
587
00:47:45.285 --> 00:47:55.830
circular economy. Right? Like, we we will have, you know, Bitcoin rich people who are willing to spend Bitcoin and going out and and actively spending it and people earning it. Right? So you're not buying. You're not selling.
588
00:47:57.605 --> 00:48:03.785
You're you're you're trading. You're you're you're you're earning it or you're you're, like, buying goods and services with it.
589
00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:07.840
So I I think, ultimately, it kind of
590
00:48:08.380 --> 00:48:10.800
mitigates itself in that in that regard.
591
00:48:11.420 --> 00:48:15.360
But, clearly, what we've seen from governments is, like, basically, the attack here
592
00:48:15.965 --> 00:48:22.865
is they get as much information on as many addresses and many users as possible, and they they basically try and
593
00:48:24.980 --> 00:48:31.400
process of eliminated out. Right? So if Ergo isn't doing KYC, maybe someone pays Ergo with the KYC
594
00:48:32.020 --> 00:48:33.205
whatever that they know.
595
00:48:33.925 --> 00:48:42.620
And they and they they try and, like, process eliminate you out. It is the biggest attack vector, and it it's just something that people should be absolutely fucking aware of all the time.
596
00:48:48.540 --> 00:48:54.295
So Nick Ward right now is the commissioner of my Bitcoin Fantasy League,
597
00:48:54.595 --> 00:49:03.060
and he's saying run a Bitcoin Fantasy League and collect league fees as your KYC free stack. I promise you, Nick, that I was the only one who paid you with CoinJoin
598
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:14.704
SATS, and every single other person paid you directly from their exchange or broker. You probably got majority and and probably Jack Mahler's himself could probably know the majority of the people who paid you.
599
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:20.900
And and so, like so for you to say it's a KYC free stack, okay, I guess.
600
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:29.125
You know? But if you if you add that metadata of us all being in the same Telegram group, us all tweeting about being in the same fantasy league, us all paying
601
00:49:29.425 --> 00:49:32.885
the addresses at the same time that got paid out at the same time,
602
00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.100
you end up in a situation where it gets really dark really quickly.
603
00:49:40.485 --> 00:49:41.285
Ricardo just,
604
00:49:41.845 --> 00:49:46.505
made a comment about BISK in the chat. He said that BISK transactions are easily identifiable
605
00:49:47.445 --> 00:49:51.160
and trackable, and there's a there's a lot of work to do in the BISK wallet.
606
00:49:52.180 --> 00:49:57.880
Just one comment back from me on that one. I mean, you know, the whole point of BISK is that you're not tying
607
00:49:59.845 --> 00:50:00.345
your,
608
00:50:01.525 --> 00:50:05.625
real life identity to to whatever Bitcoin that you're buying.
609
00:50:07.830 --> 00:50:10.010
Most wallets have a fingerprint on chain.
610
00:50:10.310 --> 00:50:12.890
Most transactions have, you know, there's obviously,
611
00:50:13.350 --> 00:50:14.810
common transaction fingerprints.
612
00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:17.795
Coin joints have have have recently identify
613
00:50:18.175 --> 00:50:18.915
and identifiable
614
00:50:19.215 --> 00:50:19.875
on chain.
615
00:50:20.655 --> 00:50:32.140
I think you're kinda missing the point there a little bit and the fact that the whole the whole piece around BISK is that you're buying it and and not what okay. There's one person that knows your your real name, but,
616
00:50:33.165 --> 00:50:36.305
the the point isn't to obfuscate that transaction on chain.
617
00:50:36.685 --> 00:50:40.145
Well, on chain on chain, it's very visible. It's a Bisk transaction.
618
00:50:41.040 --> 00:50:41.700
Yeah. Exactly.
619
00:50:42.080 --> 00:50:50.825
And and and and your deposit is linked to it. Right? Your security deposit is linked to it. So if your security deposit is a docs transaction, it's a KYC transaction,
620
00:50:51.365 --> 00:50:53.225
that also gets linked to your best transaction.
621
00:50:55.685 --> 00:51:00.810
Yeah. For sure. But I I I just think I think people I think it's important for people to realize that,
622
00:51:01.990 --> 00:51:04.490
they think if you're a Bisc user, you don't need CoinJoin.
623
00:51:06.150 --> 00:51:07.930
I think that's completely false.
624
00:51:08.244 --> 00:51:16.505
I I I think as a Bisk user, you need CoinJoin for two reasons. I think you're protecting yourself from the counterparty. Like, your counterparty shouldn't know what you spend your fucking Bitcoin on,
625
00:51:17.230 --> 00:51:26.895
and also you're you're protecting yourself from that fingerprinting. Right? Like, if we think that governments are gonna push back on CoinJoin usage, they're definitely gonna push back on Bisc usage.
626
00:51:28.975 --> 00:51:34.915
For sure. I mean, 6102, you're just hitting the nail on the head there in the chat. I mean, the ultimate is is to use some NoCoIC
627
00:51:35.560 --> 00:51:36.700
Sats as your deposit.
628
00:51:37.080 --> 00:51:38.860
If you can't hold of any NoCoIC
629
00:51:39.160 --> 00:51:42.780
Sats, use a a post mix UTXO from Whirlpool,
630
00:51:43.664 --> 00:51:47.525
to fund that security deposit will be the 2nd best option there, really.
631
00:51:48.305 --> 00:51:53.010
Yeah, Brian. That's what you're you're remixing UTXOs are for. So maybe this is that.
632
00:51:54.770 --> 00:52:01.030
He's he's responding to our boy, Brian Harrington, who said, I almost thought about it, but I didn't wanna break my UTXOs that we're remixing.
633
00:52:01.410 --> 00:52:02.950
I think he's talking about Fantasy.
634
00:52:04.195 --> 00:52:09.815
I think he paid with strike. I think he's admitting he paid with strike for Fantasy. It's okay, Brian. I know you did.
635
00:52:11.730 --> 00:52:15.990
I mean, I don't know you did because you paid Nick, but I just assumed you did. It's okay.
636
00:52:18.345 --> 00:52:21.965
Once in future saying to bust for BPC. Yes. I agree. I
637
00:52:22.345 --> 00:52:25.485
this is what I'm saying. Like, I I I think that ultimately,
638
00:52:26.070 --> 00:52:34.250
a lot of these problems kinda solve themselves when we leave this situation where most people are are are entering on an on ramp or an off ramp,
639
00:52:35.984 --> 00:52:49.840
where it's a circular economy. But still, you're gonna need Heavy CoinJoin. You're gonna need Lightning usage. I mean, I know you guys. So I I think Bitcoin q and a is a little more bullish on on Lightning, but, ergo, you're you're very bearish on Lightning. Well,
640
00:52:50.220 --> 00:52:52.320
is Lightning a a privacy,
641
00:52:54.205 --> 00:52:59.025
a prospective privacy thing we should be be looking forward to, or is it just all bullshit?
642
00:52:59.325 --> 00:53:06.370
Well okay. First off, and I'm gonna lose everybody by saying this right off the bat, is that I have never used lightning.
643
00:53:06.990 --> 00:53:08.290
I just can't be bothered.
644
00:53:09.174 --> 00:53:12.234
Oh, freak. Should I kick him from the chat? Yeah. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get
645
00:53:12.535 --> 00:53:13.035
muted.
646
00:53:13.335 --> 00:53:16.875
It's just too much work, too much headache, you know, from what I can tell.
647
00:53:17.890 --> 00:53:22.710
And, you know, then we get into the just use lightning because that will fix everything,
648
00:53:24.049 --> 00:53:32.204
kind of mentality. And I know not everybody kind of thinks that really thinks that. Some people just sort of throw that around, but kind of argument around on Twitter.
649
00:53:32.505 --> 00:53:33.964
Damn. Yeah. He's the fan.
650
00:53:36.010 --> 00:53:44.030
This comic is great. A lot of people throw that around, like, you know, if we just bolt this layer too on top of the base layer that doesn't have the privacy, then we'll be fine.
651
00:53:44.375 --> 00:53:47.355
And there was a paper not too long ago about, you know,
652
00:53:48.215 --> 00:53:48.715
whatever,
653
00:53:49.575 --> 00:54:05.875
I actually don't know who wrote it. But anyway, you know, they they they boiled it down to something along the lines of, well, l m big still controls the majority of the channels. And because all we know we know which clusters are are spending into the channel openings, we can figure out a lot about what's going on.
654
00:54:06.495 --> 00:54:06.995
And,
655
00:54:07.295 --> 00:54:15.140
you know, that's not really encouraging. Right? It sort of still, you know, really kinda paints the picture that, you know, the on chain privacy is still
656
00:54:15.839 --> 00:54:19.780
still matters. It's still going to matter. It's not gonna just go away. You know?
657
00:54:20.945 --> 00:54:26.325
So, you know, that's that's kinda where I'm at for now, you know, and maybe at some point, I'll give it a shot,
658
00:54:27.060 --> 00:54:31.560
You know? But I'll let q and a maybe talk about his experience because he's actually used the thing.
659
00:54:32.740 --> 00:54:35.160
Yeah. This is where I come to your rescue a little bit.
660
00:54:37.125 --> 00:54:38.585
I've got 2 lightning nodes.
661
00:54:38.885 --> 00:54:42.265
I'll be open and honest. The only time I've ever used it for transactions
662
00:54:42.565 --> 00:54:43.065
is,
663
00:54:44.244 --> 00:54:44.744
donations
664
00:54:46.319 --> 00:54:47.859
or feeding chickens or,
665
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.359
just stuff like I I or I bought,
666
00:54:55.745 --> 00:54:56.645
what's the,
667
00:54:58.145 --> 00:55:01.125
the magazine, not Citadel 21, the other one? 21ism.
668
00:55:01.505 --> 00:55:03.285
I paid for 21ism on lightning.
669
00:55:03.665 --> 00:55:04.090
But,
670
00:55:04.570 --> 00:55:05.070
ultimately,
671
00:55:05.610 --> 00:55:10.510
I think, like Hugo said, on chains where it's at, I mean, I just don't have a need for
672
00:55:11.425 --> 00:55:12.625
regular lightning channel
673
00:55:13.025 --> 00:55:14.805
sorry. Regular lightning payments.
674
00:55:16.145 --> 00:55:19.605
I'm a bit more bullish, like you said, Matt, on on the promise of
675
00:55:21.750 --> 00:55:29.770
of the future of, you know, what Bitcoin can do for for sorry. What Lightning can do for for for layer 1 in terms of scaling.
676
00:55:30.925 --> 00:55:37.505
But, ultimately, it's tied back to layer 1. And so I think it's not gonna be a silver bullet for for privacy.
677
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:39.460
Yes, you can run,
678
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:47.235
lightning nodes over to all. You can have private channels. I think they're both good solutions, but I think it's far too early to tell really,
679
00:55:47.635 --> 00:55:48.215
in terms
680
00:55:49.235 --> 00:55:53.895
of how private it's gonna be and and whether there's any tools that can be built on top of that
681
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:57.080
to to further that sort of,
682
00:55:58.520 --> 00:56:00.940
that strain of privacy for for users, really.
683
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:02.540
I mean
684
00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:03.900
so,
685
00:56:06.425 --> 00:56:13.245
like, I wish the space I dedicated myself to didn't have some like, dedicated myself to education, didn't have so much fucking nuance with everything.
686
00:56:15.080 --> 00:56:15.980
Bingo, Paul.
687
00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:17.500
It's fucking annoying
688
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.820
that we have to deal like, especially now with the the the price pump,
689
00:56:22.695 --> 00:56:23.595
we've had
690
00:56:24.455 --> 00:56:25.195
an insane
691
00:56:25.815 --> 00:56:36.810
an insane amount of of newcomers have come in, and they're asking me, like, all these, like, little questions about, like, UTXO management and all these different things, and and it it makes it way more difficult. Like, ultimately,
692
00:56:37.295 --> 00:56:40.355
people should be able to download an app, and it should be easy for them.
693
00:56:42.175 --> 00:56:44.275
There's an interesting aspect with Lightning.
694
00:56:44.655 --> 00:56:45.475
With Lightning,
695
00:56:46.050 --> 00:56:48.550
the spender has more privacy than the receiver.
696
00:56:50.930 --> 00:56:52.470
The spender has significantly
697
00:56:52.770 --> 00:56:54.950
more privacy than the receiver. The receiver
698
00:56:55.835 --> 00:56:57.535
has a a static
699
00:56:57.994 --> 00:57:04.095
basically, a static pub key that that describes them. So if your static pub key gets leaked on the Internet somewhere,
700
00:57:04.555 --> 00:57:09.190
it gets connected to you. Any invoice that gets paid with that static pub key,
701
00:57:11.890 --> 00:57:13.435
is you. They know it's you.
702
00:57:14.075 --> 00:57:24.520
On the sending side, though, there's way more privacy, and it's kind of thrown on its head with custodial wallets for whatever reason. Like, we're supposed to be against custodial wallets, but for custodial wallets,
703
00:57:25.540 --> 00:57:29.240
you you have you you get, like, a little bit extra privacy there.
704
00:57:31.220 --> 00:57:31.720
But,
705
00:57:32.325 --> 00:57:36.025
yeah, I I I I I think, ultimately, when it comes time to spending,
706
00:57:36.964 --> 00:57:40.105
I'd oh, I almost always prefer to spend to a lightning invoice.
707
00:57:42.110 --> 00:57:45.970
I don't know how to receive privately. I don't even know if it's possible without custodial,
708
00:57:46.830 --> 00:57:47.765
Lightning right now.
709
00:57:49.605 --> 00:58:01.160
You know, in in terms of, like, being a content creator, like, tip me. Right? Like, right now, if you wanna tip me, you tip me through tip and not me. It's custodial wallet. I don't know how you do it in a in any kind of private fashion.
710
00:58:02.260 --> 00:58:06.745
I guess you could do Keysend, but you're there's no there's no privacy whatsoever there. Right?
711
00:58:07.465 --> 00:58:08.205
So I
712
00:58:09.545 --> 00:58:20.560
so I struggle with that aspect, but but another aspect on the sending side is that you don't have that toxic change. Right? There's no toxic change when you when you spend from a a lightning invoice.
713
00:58:21.340 --> 00:58:28.255
So you don't have to deal with that change on a future date, which is one of the things that I think a lot of us have to deal with all the time. Right?
714
00:58:30.155 --> 00:58:33.010
Yeah. For sure. One thing I've wanted to ask you, Mark, actually,
715
00:58:33.490 --> 00:58:37.030
obviously, with the recent price pump and and slightly more sustained
716
00:58:37.410 --> 00:58:38.230
higher fees,
717
00:58:39.490 --> 00:58:40.710
I I would have expected
718
00:58:41.010 --> 00:58:41.670
to see
719
00:58:42.755 --> 00:58:44.775
total capacity in the lightning network increase.
720
00:58:45.795 --> 00:58:51.430
I haven't seen it yet. Obviously, you know, I know what you're gonna say is it's all public it's all private channels.
721
00:58:52.130 --> 00:58:53.670
No. No. But you would have expect
722
00:58:53.970 --> 00:58:56.710
you would have expected to see a bit more of a jump,
723
00:58:57.424 --> 00:59:01.525
in in the public capacity, and and it's still over just over a 1000 BTC.
724
00:59:02.065 --> 00:59:04.164
Well, it pumped in in fiat value.
725
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:08.500
Fair. Fair.
726
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:11.460
It pumped it pumped significantly in fiat value.
727
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:17.835
Same with same with Whirlpool. Same with the unspent capacity in Whirlpool.
728
00:59:19.255 --> 00:59:23.194
Yeah. That's pumped in BTC value as well. Have you seen it today? It's pumped in both.
729
00:59:24.140 --> 00:59:24.640
Shit.
730
00:59:26.620 --> 00:59:29.680
Yeah. I mean, look. I I I don't think anyone's using fucking lightning.
731
00:59:30.620 --> 00:59:34.065
And I don't I don't pretend that's that's, you know,
732
00:59:34.365 --> 00:59:36.545
any any other case there, you know. I I,
733
00:59:39.405 --> 00:59:40.305
I'm I'm
734
00:59:41.160 --> 00:59:44.940
maybe more technical than most people, but I'm not a very technical person.
735
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:49.900
I mean, the freaks will laugh, but I'm not a very technical person if you compare me to, like, a Bitcoin people.
736
00:59:52.455 --> 00:59:52.955
But
737
00:59:53.415 --> 00:59:57.595
my way of learning is by getting my my feet dirty, you know, getting my hands dirty.
738
00:59:58.070 --> 01:00:00.490
And so I'm running one of the largest,
739
01:00:01.030 --> 01:00:02.650
onion only routing nodes,
740
01:00:03.110 --> 01:00:04.170
on the lightning network.
741
01:00:05.190 --> 01:00:06.705
I lose money every day.
742
01:00:07.185 --> 01:00:10.405
Like, I I don't make any money on there's no like, I see
743
01:00:10.945 --> 01:00:13.845
you when you route through a node on Lightning,
744
01:00:14.260 --> 01:00:18.680
you trust that node. They see payment came from this node sent to this node.
745
01:00:19.620 --> 01:00:21.080
So I see those payments.
746
01:00:21.445 --> 01:00:24.585
I'm one of the biggest lightning node, onion lightning nodes,
747
01:00:25.285 --> 01:00:28.265
and there's just not much activity. There's, like, there's
748
01:00:28.940 --> 01:00:41.525
there's activity. I'm I'm not saying there's no activity. There's definitely activity, but there's there's there's not that much activity, and I think that's fine. Like, I you know, it it it is what it is. Like, what right now, like, what the lightning public capacity is, like, $25,000,000.
749
01:00:43.425 --> 01:00:51.750
Like, that's fine. Like, what would how you know, how much you how many low value transactions are really going through in general that need to be served?
750
01:00:55.694 --> 01:00:58.015
Fair. Fair. What you what's your thoughts on
751
01:00:58.734 --> 01:01:08.760
I've got this feeling that a lot of lightning usage is gonna be custodial going forward just because, you know, the very nature of it is it's smaller value transactions and that people are just gonna be okay with that.
752
01:01:10.225 --> 01:01:13.925
I mean, look. I think the the real genius of Lightning
753
01:01:14.465 --> 01:01:15.525
is interoperable,
754
01:01:16.545 --> 01:01:17.525
custodial wallets.
755
01:01:18.869 --> 01:01:22.549
Custodial wallets that that can easily interact with each other and pay each other.
756
01:01:24.309 --> 01:01:31.395
I think the the main issue is, first of all, no one can talk about it because if you're running a custodial wallet, you're just constantly in government crosshairs.
757
01:01:31.775 --> 01:01:34.595
And then second of all, you're constantly in government crosshairs.
758
01:01:35.200 --> 01:01:41.539
So if if but but then again, if we were in a situation where you weren't in government crosshairs, you wouldn't need Bitcoin to begin with.
759
01:01:43.295 --> 01:01:50.275
So so, like, we're I I think what what the reality is gonna be is we're gonna be in a situation where you're in, like, quasi custodial situations,
760
01:01:51.240 --> 01:01:57.500
which is I know I mean, I know Ergo hasn't used it, but I think Bitcoin q and a has used it, like Breeze and Phoenix.
761
01:01:59.585 --> 01:02:04.885
Right? Have you used them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So I wouldn't say they're completely self custody.
762
01:02:05.665 --> 01:02:14.530
No. It's, I was talking to somebody about this the other day. It's a bit of a blurred line, really, isn't it? Because, you know, it's your seed. You're you're in control of the keys, but they're managing the channels for you.
763
01:02:15.565 --> 01:02:24.740
There's always been that thing in the back of my head of They could steal your money. If they wanted to steal your money, they could steal your money. Yeah. Yeah. So they're legally self they're legally self custody, though.
764
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:27.540
They they probably can't get hit by regulators
765
01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:28.740
for custodial
766
01:02:29.200 --> 01:02:30.500
wallet usage. Right?
767
01:02:31.974 --> 01:02:35.275
That's the key. That's what people don't realize. That's the key.
768
01:02:35.655 --> 01:02:37.355
They're getting around that issue.
769
01:02:39.690 --> 01:02:42.730
I think they they they provide a a good sort of,
770
01:02:44.010 --> 01:02:47.789
gray area where, obviously, they're the easiest way to onboard into lightning.
771
01:02:48.445 --> 01:02:51.345
But they, like you said, they they they are
772
01:02:51.805 --> 01:02:52.305
ultimately
773
01:02:52.925 --> 01:02:54.065
just about custodial
774
01:02:54.525 --> 01:02:56.190
non custodial, should they say.
775
01:02:56.750 --> 01:03:06.434
But I think it could be a good gateway drug into getting people to do lightning, what I would consider the prop the proper way. But, obviously, that then turned into an absolute clusterfuck
776
01:03:06.974 --> 01:03:10.994
of channel management and etcetera, etcetera. And that's why ultimately
777
01:03:11.295 --> 01:03:12.770
most people aren't doing it
778
01:03:13.970 --> 01:03:15.110
that way yet.
779
01:03:15.810 --> 01:03:19.670
Hopefully, that changes in the future, but I think we're a long way off from it yet.
780
01:03:24.194 --> 01:03:33.610
Yeah. I mean, so I'm responding to Huey Dane here who asked how come BlueWallet doesn't get attention from regulators for being a custodial wallet is we don't talk about it because we don't wanna blow up their spot.
781
01:03:34.710 --> 01:03:36.090
So thanks for asking.
782
01:03:38.310 --> 01:03:51.920
Phoenix is great. Look, I I think Phoenix is great. I just I I Phoenix is a fantastic wallet. They can just take your money if they wanna take your money. But also at the same time, like, if I had argue in front of a court of law, I could probably argue that they're not custodial.
783
01:03:52.540 --> 01:03:58.495
And I I think there's a there's a distinction there, and that's basically what the Lightning ecosystem is going for right now,
784
01:03:59.215 --> 01:04:00.835
because you have to balance UX,
785
01:04:01.615 --> 01:04:03.795
which is, like, this trust element versus,
786
01:04:05.295 --> 01:04:07.100
basically, regulators fucking you.
787
01:04:07.660 --> 01:04:13.120
If if if we didn't have to deal with regulators, I think really the Lindy thing that would happen
788
01:04:13.580 --> 01:04:16.960
is we'd end up in a situation where we had a bunch of trusted custodians
789
01:04:17.565 --> 01:04:19.425
that weren't taking KYC info.
790
01:04:19.964 --> 01:04:27.860
But we don't have that situation because regulators force the custodians to take KYC info. Otherwise, they get seized or shut down or whatnot or whatnot.
791
01:04:28.160 --> 01:04:34.340
And and that's one of the things that I think people don't realize with Bitcoin is the early days of Bitcoin was dominated by custodial services.
792
01:04:34.645 --> 01:04:39.385
And almost this this idea that we've switched over to to basically self custody,
793
01:04:40.405 --> 01:04:43.224
as a status quo if you leave a regulated platform,
794
01:04:43.660 --> 01:04:52.240
It's basically allowed people to get identified way easier. Right? Because it used to be, like, if you withdrew from, like, a Coinbase or a Mt. Gox or something,
795
01:04:53.194 --> 01:05:02.335
yeah, like, maybe you withdrew into Custodial Wallet. Like, maybe you didn't even control those UTXOs. Maybe they were just getting sent around by someone else. But now that they've stamped those guys out,
796
01:05:02.640 --> 01:05:05.380
it's almost like they just assume it's it's you.
797
01:05:10.775 --> 01:05:11.275
Yeah.
798
01:05:11.655 --> 01:05:13.515
I completely agree. I think I mean,
799
01:05:14.535 --> 01:05:15.755
curious to know,
800
01:05:16.455 --> 01:05:19.035
you mentioned that you you run one of the biggest,
801
01:05:19.495 --> 01:05:19.995
onion
802
01:05:20.569 --> 01:05:22.349
routed nodes on lightning.
803
01:05:22.650 --> 01:05:25.150
Is that on a Raspi blitz by any chance?
804
01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:27.210
No. It's,
805
01:05:27.770 --> 01:05:29.525
shout out to Askwo who's here,
806
01:05:30.724 --> 01:05:32.424
and Kito. It's on a nozzle,
807
01:05:33.285 --> 01:05:36.904
which I think is a Roc 64, the first generation nozzle.
808
01:05:37.830 --> 01:05:38.570
The OG?
809
01:05:39.590 --> 01:05:41.770
Yeah. The OG nodle too. It's a fucking
810
01:05:42.870 --> 01:05:43.370
$250,
811
01:05:43.830 --> 01:05:48.645
$300 box, fucking one of the largest routing nodes on lightning, so props to them.
812
01:05:50.305 --> 01:05:52.405
Were you gonna fud raspi blitzes?
813
01:05:53.210 --> 01:05:55.710
No. No. Not at all. I'd run 1. I love it.
814
01:05:57.930 --> 01:06:02.030
I mean, because there's the Luke there's the Luke junior concern, right, that they're just all backdoored?
815
01:06:05.825 --> 01:06:28.935
I'm not even gonna comment on Luke's risk. So that's not where you were going, just to be clear? No. No. No. I was just I was genuinely curious. Oh, okay. As to which one you what platform you were running on. No. Yeah. I mean, that was the Nava o g. I mean, look, I was a lightning bear. I was a lightning bear, and then I became super lightning bullish. I opened way too many channels, and then I became a lightning bear again. And now I'm, like, cautiously optimistic on lightning.
816
01:06:30.830 --> 01:06:36.050
I've gone through, like, all the phases. I've gone through a boom I've gone through a proper boom bust cycle of lightning.
817
01:06:37.845 --> 01:06:54.585
I know what you mean. I go through phases of, you know, I make a couple of transactions. I think, fuck. Yeah. This is pretty good UX. And then I remember what I had to go through to set up channels and get them balanced and etcetera, etcetera. And I'm thinking most people ain't gonna go through this. They really aren't. So I I kinda go up and down
818
01:06:55.065 --> 01:06:55.645
on lightning.
819
01:06:59.705 --> 01:07:04.920
I think we've lost Ergo, by the way, on on the lightning chat. Well, you guys were on a roll. I didn't wanna interrupt.
820
01:07:05.619 --> 01:07:10.440
At the risk of a clunking gear change, let me just 6102 asked a couple questions.
821
01:07:11.665 --> 01:07:20.244
The paper link that you sent, that PDF, that was not the paper I was referring to. I will find the one that I was referring to, and I'll get it to you.
822
01:07:20.930 --> 01:07:22.470
And he asked a question about
823
01:07:24.210 --> 01:07:25.990
volumes for custodial tumblers.
824
01:07:26.930 --> 01:07:32.665
Will they institute, you know, something along the lines of a a, you know, an hourly volume limit?
825
01:07:33.285 --> 01:07:35.785
And first off, thank you for reading
826
01:07:36.085 --> 01:07:37.385
our OXC report.
827
01:07:37.870 --> 01:07:39.650
I know it's it's quite a tome.
828
01:07:41.390 --> 01:07:50.585
But one thing that I don't think we really mentioned in the report is that the custodial tumblers, they they at a very high level, they sort of act as kind of a swap service where
829
01:07:51.684 --> 01:07:54.430
they basically take, you know, different UTXOs
830
01:07:54.730 --> 01:08:05.015
controlled by different users. They go into their sort of custodial spreadsheet. And on the way out, they they basically just say, okay. You know, user a's coins are now user b's coins.
831
01:08:05.875 --> 01:08:07.335
And so user a,
832
01:08:08.035 --> 01:08:10.295
gives his history to kinda user b.
833
01:08:10.910 --> 01:08:14.930
And people or custodial tumblers kind of run into problems when,
834
01:08:16.350 --> 01:08:17.970
they send in too much volume.
835
01:08:19.065 --> 01:08:22.445
A single user sends in too much volume. They drain the available liquidity,
836
01:08:22.905 --> 01:08:26.179
and they start getting their own coins in return. And so 6102
837
01:08:26.480 --> 01:08:34.260
is kind of getting at, hey. You know, shouldn't they just limit the hourly volume, you know, to to kinda keep people from getting their own coins back?
838
01:08:34.954 --> 01:08:50.380
And I guess they they kinda don't wanna do that. Right? It's a custodial service. Imagine telling someone that they can't get their coins back. They'd probably, you know, freak out. So what they do as kind of an alternative is they they have their own, and I'm using scare quotes here, reserves
839
01:08:51.215 --> 01:08:58.435
where when, you know, whatever available liquidity they have gets low, they'll inject their own liquidity so that a user doesn't get their own coins back.
840
01:08:58.740 --> 01:09:00.920
Except that chip mixer doesn't really
841
01:09:01.220 --> 01:09:05.800
appear to do that. So that's a really long rambling answer to 6102's question.
842
01:09:06.344 --> 01:09:11.485
So 6102, let me know you got that. And, otherwise, you know, both I'll see you in my DMs.
843
01:09:13.240 --> 01:09:17.080
Well, I mean, part of the reason why I did this was so that 6102 could be a host.
844
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:22.060
So that's fantastic. Yep. Yep. He was listening. Rate limit on the way in, he says.
845
01:09:23.425 --> 01:09:26.485
Yeah. But how are you gonna do that? I mean, you give somebody a static address,
846
01:09:26.865 --> 01:09:29.125
and how do you how do you rate limit lightning.
847
01:09:29.585 --> 01:09:40.170
Yeah. Oh, you could do it with lightning. You could I mean, no. I mean, this is the thing that regulated companies think about. Right? Like, lightning is beautiful in that respect, is that you can choose how much people deposit into their wallets.
848
01:09:44.305 --> 01:09:58.915
I know. That's a negative. I'm just saying. I'm just stating the fact. Like, people don't talk about this. Like, it it is one of the cool things about Lightning for, compliance, bro, is that you can choose how much gets deposited. With OnChain Bitcoin, you can't. You give an address, they just deposit.
849
01:10:00.175 --> 01:10:03.075
Or you don't give an address and you still get a deposit. You get dusted.
850
01:10:04.150 --> 01:10:16.895
Right. But you know what I mean? Like, you you you provide you provide the differences between an address versus an invoice. You can't overpay a lightning invoice. Well, I mean, I don't know if you know that. You can overpay a light you cannot overpay a lightning invoice. Today, I learned.
851
01:10:17.355 --> 01:10:21.870
Yeah. So so so for compliance pros, like, Lightning is really nice in that respect.
852
01:10:22.250 --> 01:10:25.470
You can you can both pay a a a pre whitelisted,
853
01:10:26.650 --> 01:10:27.710
pub key node.
854
01:10:28.105 --> 01:10:33.565
Right? So, like, you can you can choose who you pay, and you can also choose how much money comes onto your platform.
855
01:10:36.020 --> 01:10:59.390
You know, I I thought if only I knew enough about lightning to really comment, but I Yeah. Try to channel my energy a good critic unless you use the thing, man. I know. I know. I can't. But if I could just channel my inner tdev who would say something along the lines of, you know, lightning was built for kind of custodial solutions, and it would just be basically, and I told you so. Well, I wanna say that I had the 1st Citadel dispatch ever was with T Dev in a bar in Manhattan,
856
01:11:00.490 --> 01:11:01.870
but it just wasn't recorded.
857
01:11:03.485 --> 01:11:07.425
So Did you get did you get a good lecture? Did he did he the lost tapes.
858
01:11:08.685 --> 01:11:10.625
And you didn't that's a shame.
859
01:11:11.400 --> 01:11:14.940
I remembered enough to feel ashamed in the morning. Let me put it that way.
860
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.615
So, I mean, we brought up your OXG research,
861
01:11:21.015 --> 01:11:23.195
report, which I think is is fantastic.
862
01:11:24.055 --> 01:11:32.020
So I I think we should definitely talk about it. It is available for purchase right now, but it's also gonna be available for free in a couple days,
863
01:11:32.480 --> 01:11:34.579
which I think is a really cool business model.
864
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:36.099
I like that idea.
865
01:11:36.719 --> 01:11:38.420
I appreciate the work you do.
866
01:11:40.855 --> 01:11:47.575
I do have the actual report up on the thing. So there is a little spoiler there in terms of of what you can see if if you
867
01:11:48.200 --> 01:11:49.660
once you view this report.
868
01:11:50.600 --> 01:11:53.260
One of the things that's interesting to me, I think,
869
01:11:53.560 --> 01:11:58.665
is that is that the people on on Bitcoin Twitter that talk about privacy will talk about,
870
01:12:01.205 --> 01:12:03.225
you know, who knows what information,
871
01:12:03.765 --> 01:12:11.949
like, what is the trusted relationship there? Like, it needs to be perfectly trustless in order to be a a practical privacy solution for Bitcoiners.
872
01:12:13.235 --> 01:12:16.054
But if we look into it, like, the majority of
873
01:12:16.355 --> 01:12:20.215
of of private Bitcoin usage goes through straight up custodial tumblers.
874
01:12:21.330 --> 01:12:30.150
Where not only are you trusting them with your full privacy, you're trusting them with your fucking UTXOs. Like, you're trusting them with your Bitcoin. They can steal your fucking money
875
01:12:30.995 --> 01:12:32.615
and they can dox you.
876
01:12:33.795 --> 01:12:38.135
They get the majority of volume, like, joint market, Wasabi, Whirlpool
877
01:12:38.515 --> 01:12:43.300
get nothing. They get negligible amount of volume in comparison to these custodial
878
01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:44.180
mixers.
879
01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:46.665
Let's talk about that.
880
01:12:48.985 --> 01:12:53.085
So for the the people that, you know, haven't gotten the chance to read it yet,
881
01:12:53.790 --> 01:12:56.370
you know, most of these reports, they're they're fairly technical.
882
01:12:57.310 --> 01:13:04.195
But, you know, I'm I'm trying to get to the point where I can hopefully distill this down for for kinda most people.
883
01:13:06.815 --> 01:13:08.034
Did I lose you guys?
884
01:13:08.735 --> 01:13:13.554
Let me know. Here. I'm listening to everything. I go everything got quiet. I'm like, okay. It's all alive.
885
01:13:14.080 --> 01:13:14.580
So,
886
01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:23.540
you know, Matt brings up kind of an interesting point about kind of what, you know, Bitcoin privacy and quotes used to look like. And I I hinted on it a little while ago about,
887
01:13:24.065 --> 01:13:26.165
you know, kind of the custodial tumblers.
888
01:13:27.265 --> 01:13:30.005
And, you know, we kinda get guilty of of
889
01:13:30.910 --> 01:13:40.130
blurring the lines. We just say mix, and mix sort of starts to represent coinjoin and tumbler. And I hate that. Yeah. I know. And it and it's important to to keep them distinct.
890
01:13:41.265 --> 01:13:42.885
But, you know, I get lazy
891
01:13:43.265 --> 01:13:45.185
and people will hate that. But,
892
01:13:46.545 --> 01:13:47.045
so
893
01:13:47.425 --> 01:13:48.245
in the report,
894
01:13:48.625 --> 01:13:53.480
what we did was we tracked, you know, the 1,000 Bitcoin that were stolen from the KuCoin hack,
895
01:13:53.860 --> 01:13:54.360
KuCoin,
896
01:13:54.980 --> 01:13:56.920
Hong Kong Exchange in September.
897
01:13:58.335 --> 01:14:00.355
As they sort of made their way through,
898
01:14:01.614 --> 01:14:02.915
you know, basically,
899
01:14:03.375 --> 01:14:09.560
kind of a 3 sort of overall mixer process. You know, they use chip mixer, which is kind of one of the oldest,
900
01:14:11.620 --> 01:14:12.680
custodial tumblers.
901
01:14:13.415 --> 01:14:21.355
They used Wasabi. Well, they apparently used Wasabi, at least at first glance, and they also used, another custodial tumbler called Blender.
902
01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:30.540
And, you know, Matt brings up kind of an interesting point about sort of, you know, the meme of, you know, kind of custodial Tumblr volumes.
903
01:14:31.415 --> 01:14:40.950
And at least as a part of this report, we, you know, in order to kinda try to attempt to track the stolen coins across both mixers, We had to,
904
01:14:41.650 --> 01:14:48.550
spend a good amount of time and, you know, first identify them as best we could, identify the volumes that they were doing kinda daily.
905
01:14:49.250 --> 01:14:49.750
And,
906
01:14:50.115 --> 01:14:58.855
you know, the interesting thing is is to kinda see sort of the average amount of Bitcoin that these sort of custodial tumblers are are doing every day.
907
01:15:00.300 --> 01:15:04.880
My intuition was that it would have been higher than what kind of came out in this report.
908
01:15:05.420 --> 01:15:13.405
And what we sort of found was Chip Mixer, which is one of the oldest and most recognized, was around 85 bitcoin a day in average over the last several months.
909
01:15:13.705 --> 01:15:15.485
And Blender, which is
910
01:15:15.860 --> 01:15:21.720
another custodial Tumblr, was I I think it was an average around a 115 Bitcoin a day.
911
01:15:22.180 --> 01:15:27.375
And so I think Blender probably has some of the higher volumes just kind of in general.
912
01:15:28.074 --> 01:15:32.160
And if you look at that kinda compared to some of the the the noncustodial,
913
01:15:32.540 --> 01:15:35.679
the the the the coin joins, the traditional coin joins,
914
01:15:36.699 --> 01:15:40.595
the the the volumes, you know, aren't as different as I would have thought,
915
01:15:41.155 --> 01:15:42.695
which is kind of a good sign.
916
01:15:43.315 --> 01:15:47.815
I know a lot of these sort of older custodial tumblers, like this kind of
917
01:15:48.240 --> 01:15:59.505
network effect is just really die hard people. They you know, darknet market users are swapping their coins and thinking that they're getting, you know, some real privacy. And that kind of thing just sort of really dies hard, but,
918
01:16:00.765 --> 01:16:07.410
you know, it it was it was a a good experience to kind of, you know, spend the time and and identify some of these,
919
01:16:07.870 --> 01:16:13.970
these services because we talk about them, but, you know, nobody's really spent the time to to, you know, even look at them.
920
01:16:16.335 --> 01:16:22.115
Let me see. Oh, 6102 is asking, how did the chain surveillance companies miss the blender tumbler?
921
01:16:23.880 --> 01:16:27.579
And so in the report for, you know, one of the first times,
922
01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:29.900
I think we have identified
923
01:16:30.495 --> 01:16:30.995
Blender,
924
01:16:31.375 --> 01:16:34.755
which does more volume than chip mixer. Chip mixer is
925
01:16:35.135 --> 01:16:36.195
kind of really
926
01:16:36.735 --> 01:16:42.389
apparent on chain because of the the denomination outputs. Sort of has a coin joined fingerprint.
927
01:16:43.489 --> 01:16:56.865
So it's very easily recognized. It was recognized in the Twitter hack. It's been recognized in in other kind of chain surveillance company reports or blog posts or whatever. And so the, you know, 6102 is asking, well, how did they find Blender?
928
01:16:57.420 --> 01:16:59.199
Blender doesn't have that
929
01:17:00.619 --> 01:17:03.980
that coin joint fingerprint. It doesn't have the fixed denomination outputs,
930
01:17:04.985 --> 01:17:06.605
whereas Chipmixer has 0.001,
931
01:17:07.385 --> 01:17:07.885
0.002,
932
01:17:08.664 --> 01:17:09.164
0.004,
933
01:17:09.704 --> 01:17:14.980
and so on. It's very apparent on chain. And Blender is less so,
934
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:17.860
but it does have somewhat of a fingerprint.
935
01:17:18.560 --> 01:17:21.860
And I think the reason that many of the chain surveillance
936
01:17:22.864 --> 01:17:27.764
firms miss this is because of the transaction graph tools that they use.
937
01:17:28.704 --> 01:17:29.204
They,
938
01:17:30.390 --> 01:17:37.370
from what I can tell, from sort of the the public displays that they put out of their transaction graphs, it's unclear kind of
939
01:17:37.675 --> 01:17:42.575
the the true relationship that the transaction graph is trying to show, whereas OXT
940
01:17:43.435 --> 01:17:50.890
is very pure, and it shows the only the relationship of inputs and outputs in kind of a transaction. So we identified
941
01:17:51.350 --> 01:17:53.930
Blender because we saw multiple
942
01:17:54.495 --> 01:18:01.554
outputs from a previous transaction getting used in the following transaction, which if you're kind of using the pure transaction graph, stands out.
943
01:18:04.210 --> 01:18:05.590
So what does he say?
944
01:18:06.210 --> 01:18:11.590
Surprising they're not pushing funds through all of these tumbling. Isn't it great that we had we basically have 6102
945
01:18:11.970 --> 01:18:14.995
is on podcast format, by the way. Yeah. It is. It is great.
946
01:18:16.094 --> 01:18:21.315
6102 said it's surprising that they are not pushing funds through all these tumbling services, to be honest.
947
01:18:22.160 --> 01:18:29.335
By the way, I would I would like to say that 6102, it that is my NIM, so it's pretty impressive that I'm typing these questions while we're live.
948
01:18:29.735 --> 01:18:33.515
Okay. Continue. We have we have, been mixing now.
949
01:18:35.975 --> 01:18:38.875
So, you know, the the report we we
950
01:18:39.300 --> 01:18:50.005
do a pretty decent job of nailing down of the 1,000 Bitcoin that were stolen, you know, doing a good job of tracking kind of I think it was 750 or so. Let's just call it 75% on the way out.
951
01:18:51.025 --> 01:18:58.165
And so 6102 is kind of alluding to, you know, it's surprising that they're not, you know, pushing funds through all of the tumbling services. And,
952
01:18:59.060 --> 01:19:01.080
you know, it kinda seems like
953
01:19:02.340 --> 01:19:08.875
if I had if I had to guess what we were sort of looking at here is it's a single entity that's using Chip Mixer and Blender
954
01:19:09.335 --> 01:19:10.715
kind of at the same time.
955
01:19:11.655 --> 01:19:30.765
And I know there are other custodial tumblers, You know, we haven't looked into them sort of significantly, but, you know, we kinda can. But I really think that chip mixer, blender, and there's maybe one other one that does the majority of volume, And they they hit both of those, you know. And if there's really only one left, you know, the kind of question is, you know, where do they go next?
956
01:19:32.250 --> 01:19:36.989
You know, we did kinda get a little bit of a hint from the report that it looks like they were kinda monitoring their liquidity.
957
01:19:37.449 --> 01:19:43.485
I kinda mentioned a while ago, chip mixer, you know, the point of chip mixer or mixers in general is to swap, you know, users' UTXOs.
958
01:19:44.425 --> 01:19:48.764
And at one point, their in their chip mixer usage, they got their own
959
01:19:49.380 --> 01:19:51.159
original deposits back
960
01:19:51.699 --> 01:19:52.760
as their payout.
961
01:19:53.460 --> 01:19:59.695
And that was when they stopped. You know, that was when they stopped using Chip Mixer, and they moved on to Wasabi or, you know, Blender in this
962
01:20:00.235 --> 01:20:00.735
case.
963
01:20:01.275 --> 01:20:11.460
Yeah. I mean, so 6102, we completely read him wrong. He was asking why the chain surveillance companies are not testing out all the tumblers they can. Well, they probably are, 6102. They probably are. I mean, I've I
964
01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:22.705
I've sent coins through tumblers just, you know, to see what I could see. And, you know, without really any context or, you know, I guess in this case, kind of a significant amount of volume and context,
965
01:20:23.560 --> 01:20:31.020
it's hard to see what's going on. To be clear to be clear, a Tumblr gives you the best privacy possible if you trust the Tumblr.
966
01:20:31.745 --> 01:20:34.565
Mhmm. It gives you better privacy than a CoinJoin.
967
01:20:34.865 --> 01:20:42.570
It breaks the transaction graph, which is breaks the transaction graph. You get completely different Bitcoin back. Now exactly. And that can be a problem. Trust
968
01:20:43.110 --> 01:20:44.570
the the custodian.
969
01:20:44.949 --> 01:20:59.795
Right. So the problem the big problem is can do you trust the custodian? The follow-up problem is is I'm expecting to swap, you know, clean versus tainted coins, and I'm using that in scare quotes because I'm just thinking of sort of the kind of traditional darknet market user who thinks,
970
01:21:00.160 --> 01:21:15.574
okay. I'm about to send coins to a darknet market. I'm gonna deposit, you know, clean coins into the mixer, and then, you know, on the way out, I'll just send my coins to the darknet market. And then if you kind of think of a vendor who's withdrawing their coins from a a darknet market, they go to a tumbler.
971
01:21:16.835 --> 01:21:26.600
The the chances are are it's very possible that, you know, they're hoping to get clean quote unquote kind of exchange coins, let's call them, you know, k y c coins.
972
01:21:28.185 --> 01:21:32.284
And if they if the tumbler doesn't really swap kind of that
973
01:21:32.665 --> 01:21:36.445
that tainted versus clean coins with them, they might just wind up at darknetmarketcoins
974
01:21:36.905 --> 01:21:37.804
again anyway.
975
01:21:38.320 --> 01:21:38.820
So,
976
01:21:39.599 --> 01:21:46.340
you know, while it breaks the transaction graph, you know, it does have that sort of custodial risk. It sort of is like, what the point if they really can't,
977
01:21:46.725 --> 01:21:50.165
you know, enforce that in any way? And, you know, I don't think that they
978
01:21:51.205 --> 01:22:04.409
some of them don't know that. You know? It's just sort of an old peck. You know? Just sort of it worked. You know, I mean, there's a, you know, a decent amount of kind of, you know, quote unquote marketing material from some of them. But it's just
979
01:22:04.805 --> 01:22:06.485
kind of the wild west and it's like,
980
01:22:07.445 --> 01:22:10.265
just a a very old habit that just won't die.
981
01:22:17.570 --> 01:22:22.870
Let me see. I mean, this is your show, dude. How how do you invest classification and clustering for OXT?
982
01:22:23.685 --> 01:22:29.545
You need to make manual deposits withdrawals to these entities to get a foothold. What is precision recall for your classifier?
983
01:22:30.325 --> 01:22:31.065
Good questions.
984
01:22:32.085 --> 01:22:32.585
So
985
01:22:35.050 --> 01:22:41.630
for the people that don't know, when we use the term cluster, what we're specifically referring to is
986
01:22:43.245 --> 01:22:44.545
the method of
987
01:22:44.845 --> 01:22:46.545
attributing multiple inputs
988
01:22:46.925 --> 01:22:48.865
to a transaction to the same entity.
989
01:22:49.500 --> 01:22:54.560
It's often called the common input ownership heuristic or the merged input heuristic.
990
01:22:55.180 --> 01:22:59.655
And the assumption is that all of the inputs to a transaction are owned by the same entity.
991
01:23:01.155 --> 01:23:03.495
And this is true most of the time,
992
01:23:04.040 --> 01:23:06.780
except when you're looking at a CoinJoin transaction.
993
01:23:07.320 --> 01:23:07.820
So,
994
01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:15.315
I think is asking, you know, how do you address kinda that, Matt? Can you put that back up? I can't see that. I got you. I got you.
995
01:23:15.855 --> 01:23:23.510
Okay. Yeah. So how do you address He's like, why he's basically asking, how do you cluster the shit? Like, what what are you deciding that this is a cluster?
996
01:23:24.210 --> 01:23:30.230
My long rambling intro is that what OXT does is it takes a very conservative viewpoint.
997
01:23:31.355 --> 01:23:36.495
It first checks to make sure that a transaction doesn't have any, quote, unquote, entropy.
998
01:23:37.035 --> 01:23:38.815
It's not a CoinJoin transaction.
999
01:23:39.170 --> 01:23:41.510
If it knows it's not a CoinJoin transaction,
1000
01:23:42.130 --> 01:23:43.909
then it will assign a cluster,
1001
01:23:44.690 --> 01:23:48.469
if that makes sense, hopefully. So the problem is with CoinJoin, it's very obvious.
1002
01:23:48.835 --> 01:23:53.255
Yes. Like, you have with Whirlpool, you have a 5 person transaction is happening.
1003
01:23:54.595 --> 01:24:00.120
It it is it's very clear. It's a 5 person transactions happening. They all have a 1,000,000 Sats. They all have,
1004
01:24:01.219 --> 01:24:01.719
50,000,000
1005
01:24:02.020 --> 01:24:05.239
Sats. Whatever whatever the the the actual amount is,
1006
01:24:05.614 --> 01:24:12.915
it's it's 5 turn 5 users all coming together doing a collaborative transaction. It's very obvious on chain.
1007
01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:16.700
With a custodial Tumblr, you do not have that obviousness.
1008
01:24:17.320 --> 01:24:21.260
They they can do a bunch of different things to reduce that that
1009
01:24:22.005 --> 01:24:26.405
that obviousness. I mean, obviousness is, like, a horrible word. I need to think of a better word. But,
1010
01:24:27.205 --> 01:24:29.545
it it is they like, I remember
1011
01:24:29.845 --> 01:24:30.405
I mean, because
1012
01:24:31.310 --> 01:24:34.290
I mean, the big one in my early days was Bitmixer.
1013
01:24:35.230 --> 01:24:42.045
And they had, like, you would have time delays, and they would split it up in different amounts and all these different things. So you'd have, like,
1014
01:24:42.425 --> 01:24:43.965
over the next, like, 27
1015
01:24:44.344 --> 01:24:44.844
hours,
1016
01:24:45.465 --> 01:24:57.275
and and at, like, different random increments, you would get a payment of a small fraction of that that was a regular payment, you know, and you'd get paid. And you can do all these different heuristic breaker things,
1017
01:24:58.295 --> 01:25:01.835
if you have full faith and trust in the the custodian
1018
01:25:02.375 --> 01:25:03.835
who is under regulatory
1019
01:25:04.215 --> 01:25:04.715
crosshairs.
1020
01:25:06.440 --> 01:25:14.220
So we ended up in a situation where those people operating it were in so much risk that the majority of them would rather fuck us,
1021
01:25:15.165 --> 01:25:18.625
Because if they were gonna take that much risk, they might as well make bank,
1022
01:25:20.685 --> 01:25:28.639
and they couldn't charge, like, a reasonable price to to to to put up for that risk. So so so this is where we are today. This is why,
1023
01:25:29.579 --> 01:25:31.760
centrally coordinated coin joints,
1024
01:25:33.225 --> 01:25:35.565
as we see with Whirlpool, as we see with Wasabi,
1025
01:25:36.505 --> 01:25:38.525
are so, I think, vital.
1026
01:25:39.545 --> 01:25:45.429
It's it's a middle ground. It's a it's a it's a middle ground where we have better privacy guarantees
1027
01:25:46.130 --> 01:25:48.150
than something that isn't centrally coordinated,
1028
01:25:50.475 --> 01:25:54.335
But we don't have to we reduce the risk of of a honeypot
1029
01:25:54.635 --> 01:25:59.320
and of the the the person who's in charge getting either fucked or
1030
01:25:59.800 --> 01:26:00.280
or,
1031
01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:01.579
complicit.
1032
01:26:03.320 --> 01:26:07.739
Would you would you disagree there? Like, that that's basically how we ended up in this situation currently.
1033
01:26:08.695 --> 01:26:15.195
Yeah. I mean, exit scanning was totally a thing. Right? You know, and it still is a thing. You know, that's always the risk with sort of the custodial
1034
01:26:16.380 --> 01:26:17.120
kind of,
1035
01:26:17.900 --> 01:26:22.800
privacy or just basically any solution. Right? And that's a darknet market issue. Right? Escrow
1036
01:26:23.260 --> 01:26:24.080
exit scams.
1037
01:26:25.165 --> 01:26:30.945
So to avoid, you know, custodial kind of as much as possible is really, you know, really kind of important.
1038
01:26:31.965 --> 01:26:41.970
And so you sort of mentioned, you know, a very while back before I got off on my long tangent, which was something along the lines of, you know, given the choice between, you know, coin joining
1039
01:26:43.525 --> 01:26:49.224
or, you know, using a custodial tumbler, you know, kind of, you know, what are what are you better off doing?
1040
01:26:50.000 --> 01:27:03.605
You know, the custodial tumblers, they can do whatever they want with your coins. I mean and that's what I meant by Blender not really having a distinct kind of footprint or fingerprint on chain. You know, they it's sort of really pretty hard to see unless you kind of are looking at a lot of those transactions.
1041
01:27:04.225 --> 01:27:22.165
So, you know, in a coin join, you can see. But, you know, at least with kind of Whirlpool the good thing about Whirlpool is, you know, even though the transactions are obvious, they don't have any real reliable, you know, history. You don't have to worry about getting those kind of quote, unquote tainted coins back. Or let's say you deposit kind of a
1042
01:27:22.545 --> 01:27:24.725
a little bit of a a large amount. Well,
1043
01:27:25.105 --> 01:27:44.160
you know, you shouldn't do that, but, you know, the good thing about Whirlpool is you can sort of remix kind of forever and sort of trickle your way out and not have to sort of worry about kind of some of the things that even the custodial tumblers still have to worry about. So, you know, the good thing about Whirlpool is it's kinda turned a lot of that on its head because it's noncustodial.
1044
01:27:44.700 --> 01:27:48.160
You get kind of that benefit of how long you can keep your coins for remixing.
1045
01:27:48.860 --> 01:27:54.305
You know? And so I know a lot of people that don't really kind of maybe they don't quite get that. Remixing is free.
1046
01:27:54.845 --> 01:28:02.849
You just put your you pay to enter the pool. And after you've entered, you just can kind of remix until you're ready to spend. Well, I mean, it's not free. Well,
1047
01:28:03.389 --> 01:28:16.115
yeah. I mean, you have to pay the entry price. Yeah. You have to pay you have to pay the the entry price. And then after that, it's it's free. Right? And you have to pay in the time that you leave. Nothing in life is free or no? Right. So you have to pay in the time that you leave your coins mixing.
1048
01:28:17.010 --> 01:28:19.030
Let me see. Rome does Roman have a question?
1049
01:28:19.650 --> 01:28:23.429
Are there benefits to running coins through custodial template and through CoinJoin?
1050
01:28:25.105 --> 01:28:25.605
Yes.
1051
01:28:27.985 --> 01:28:32.324
I I I mean, I'm pretty vehemently against most things that are custodial.
1052
01:28:33.420 --> 01:28:35.119
Also, the problem with doing,
1053
01:28:35.659 --> 01:28:39.360
using multiple solutions is that you can kind of shoot yourself in the foot.
1054
01:28:39.739 --> 01:28:49.525
We kind of saw that with a Twitter hacker. If you don't really have a segregated wallet, even though you use a custodial Tumblr, if you then sort of combine and change Let's talk about the Twitter attacker. Yeah. The hacker.
1055
01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:54.540
Because you doxed him. You, like, you tracked him through Wasabi.
1056
01:28:55.160 --> 01:28:55.660
Well
1057
01:28:56.040 --> 01:28:58.140
So, like, you can put this guy in jail, basically.
1058
01:28:58.685 --> 01:29:00.225
No. He put himself in jail.
1059
01:29:02.525 --> 01:29:05.105
For those of you who don't remember, it was probably in June or July.
1060
01:29:07.430 --> 01:29:09.690
Twitter was hacked, and a guy stole,
1061
01:29:10.310 --> 01:29:18.795
I don't know, 15 Bitcoin or something along those lines. No. I mean, he didn't steal any Bitcoin. It was like It was donate it was donated. It was gifted to him. Right.
1062
01:29:19.335 --> 01:29:27.660
He scammed a bunch of people. He scammed right. He scanned he put, like, I'll send you double if you if you send it to this address from Elon Musk's Twitter account. Account.
1063
01:29:28.040 --> 01:29:34.380
Right. Right. And so what they proceeded to do with the coins was they basically split them up into using both chip mixer.
1064
01:29:35.215 --> 01:29:43.715
They sent some coins kinda straight to exchanges. They sent a little bit to Wasabi. But before they did any of that, they sent most of the coins to an address,
1065
01:29:44.140 --> 01:29:45.200
a single address,
1066
01:29:45.900 --> 01:29:47.920
that had a history of
1067
01:29:48.380 --> 01:29:49.680
interacting with Coinbase.
1068
01:29:50.300 --> 01:29:50.800
Done.
1069
01:29:51.315 --> 01:29:54.215
Right? Done. Right? And even if even if it's not
1070
01:29:54.595 --> 01:30:06.920
your Coinbase history, maybe it's somebody else's Coinbase history. You know, somebody else sent coins to you from guy you played fantasy football with. Exactly. The guy that you played fantasy. Your no k y c stats all of a sudden just landed you in fucking Gitmo.
1071
01:30:07.460 --> 01:30:08.680
And there you have it.
1072
01:30:09.335 --> 01:30:12.235
You know They said bread crumbs again. They said bread crumbs.
1073
01:30:14.455 --> 01:30:17.034
That's fucked up. Yeah. It's just so so so
1074
01:30:17.790 --> 01:30:20.770
this was actually I mean, if I'm gonna bring us back an hour
1075
01:30:21.150 --> 01:30:23.330
to a half an hour into this show,
1076
01:30:24.030 --> 01:30:32.155
we were talking about NIMS, and I was this was my tangent I was gonna go to, and I forgot, to be honest. And I remember just now is is
1077
01:30:32.615 --> 01:30:35.035
is my biggest disappointment with Bitcoin
1078
01:30:35.370 --> 01:30:39.230
is that improper usage of Bitcoin actually doxes you as a NIM.
1079
01:30:40.410 --> 01:30:48.815
So, like, if you're a NIM and you just never interact with Bitcoin, it's easier than if you have to interact with Bitcoin. Like, their Bitcoin is a a a reasonable
1080
01:30:49.675 --> 01:30:54.975
and this is what the Monero guys will will say all day and every day if they're still here.
1081
01:30:56.820 --> 01:31:03.480
That that that is the risk. Right? The risk is that you could be completely private online. Let's say, you you're amazing. You're a fucking wizard.
1082
01:31:04.275 --> 01:31:11.335
You're ergo BTC. No one knows who the fuck you are. Bitcoin can be the risk. Bitcoin is the biggest risk for a lot of people.
1083
01:31:13.780 --> 01:31:14.659
I think that's,
1084
01:31:14.980 --> 01:31:15.960
evident from
1085
01:31:16.340 --> 01:31:17.480
the dotnetmarket's
1086
01:31:18.020 --> 01:31:23.305
usage as well. I mean I mean, Ergo's the expert here compared to me myself. But,
1087
01:31:24.645 --> 01:31:28.505
there there's a massively decrease in amount of usage of Bitcoin on dotnetmarkets.
1088
01:31:29.285 --> 01:31:33.540
And and, you know, privacy is gonna be or lack of privacy is gonna be the number one,
1089
01:31:34.960 --> 01:31:37.300
instigator of that, I think. Don't you agree, Ergo?
1090
01:31:38.455 --> 01:31:38.955
Yeah.
1091
01:31:39.415 --> 01:31:42.955
I mean, we've been seeing increased adoption of Monero and
1092
01:31:43.574 --> 01:31:45.355
decreased usage of Bitcoin.
1093
01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:55.260
The last kind of holdout for, you know, Bitcoin only darknet market is Hydra, which is kind of the one of the if not the largest,
1094
01:31:55.965 --> 01:31:59.585
and probably one of the longest running darknet markets is still voice.
1095
01:32:00.205 --> 01:32:03.344
Yeah. But the but every but other than that, everybody's everybody's.
1096
01:32:04.840 --> 01:32:12.620
Everyone I I noticed on the no bullshit Bitcoin feed that everyone was saying that, White House Market who just went Monero only,
1097
01:32:13.085 --> 01:32:15.825
was the largest dark net market, and you commented,
1098
01:32:17.245 --> 01:32:20.465
you're like, Hydra is the is the largest market. Guys,
1099
01:32:20.840 --> 01:32:21.500
get it together.
1100
01:32:21.960 --> 01:32:35.005
Yeah. Well, I mean, there's there's a little bit of, the Monero guys have something here. They could say, well, you know, White House has been, you know, around for a very long time and they use Monero. And if you don't have a cluster for Monero, then tell me how much volume,
1101
01:32:35.950 --> 01:32:47.375
White House market's doing. Right. So that's, you know, that's a good counter to to that. So, you know, White House has been around for a long time. They're they're very kind of pro privacy. They're very strict. They're super strict with the PGP.
1102
01:32:47.755 --> 01:32:55.250
PGP. You know? And and, you know, and and a lot of vendors now are even starting to say where they'll, you know, they won't accept,
1103
01:32:57.150 --> 01:33:10.310
transactions without PGP, even if it's not enforced at the market level. But White House market kind of does that, you know, privacy, OPSEC. That's kind of their their shtick. That's their selling point. And if you ever make it to Dread, you could see,
1104
01:33:10.929 --> 01:33:14.869
you know, one of the admins on there. He's he's, a pretty entertaining character.
1105
01:33:17.485 --> 01:33:19.585
61 to 2. Who do you think is the honeypot?
1106
01:33:21.005 --> 01:33:23.345
I'm guessing he thinks Hydra's the honeypot.
1107
01:33:25.480 --> 01:33:31.100
It's like Putin run because Putin's a fucking boss, and he just he's just trying to accumulate Bitcoin.
1108
01:33:40.190 --> 01:33:42.050
I think Bitcoiners don't appreciate
1109
01:33:42.350 --> 01:33:43.730
a GPG, PGP
1110
01:33:44.030 --> 01:33:44.530
enough.
1111
01:33:46.350 --> 01:33:52.885
I think it's super important. I think the majority of freaks listening probably right now. If you use PGP or GPG,
1112
01:33:53.345 --> 01:33:55.285
if you've used it in the last
1113
01:33:56.625 --> 01:33:57.125
month,
1114
01:33:58.080 --> 01:34:00.179
put a message in the in the chat.
1115
01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:07.305
Yeah. 61 and 2 is talking about Hydra. Yeah. The ones that are using Bitcoin. So if I could just give my
1116
01:34:07.925 --> 01:34:09.225
take on it real quick.
1117
01:34:09.845 --> 01:34:13.525
Things are a little bit different in Eastern Europe and Russia. They don't have,
1118
01:34:14.260 --> 01:34:20.440
as many kind of centralized exchanges. I mean, yeah, some people are using Binance, but I think a lot of it's peer to peer.
1119
01:34:20.980 --> 01:34:22.920
And if you go to Hydra
1120
01:34:23.255 --> 01:34:35.840
and actually check out their website, they have a built in exchange. And 6102, you know, might raise a good point here and say, like, you know, it's gotta be a honeypot. But I think the way that things sort of work, and I could I could be wrong, is that they have,
1121
01:34:36.719 --> 01:34:37.219
basically,
1122
01:34:38.239 --> 01:34:45.125
it's sort of like a Venmo but tied to your phone number. Right? And so everybody has some sort of, like, throwaway phone number account,
1123
01:34:45.585 --> 01:34:56.050
and they can swap cash for Bitcoin pretty easily in more of a peer to peer way than really most of the west. And I think that's one of the last things that's that's sort of holding them together.
1124
01:34:56.425 --> 01:34:57.885
The coolest part about Hydra,
1125
01:34:59.065 --> 01:35:05.325
which no one fucking talks about, by the way, which is, like, the most cypherpunk fucking thing ever, is that they don't ship shit.
1126
01:35:06.500 --> 01:35:09.320
Everything gets left at a drop location.
1127
01:35:09.700 --> 01:35:32.850
Yes. They did. You go to this coordinate in Moscow and, like, your fucking drugs are there. Which removes a lot of the risk for most people. Yeah. That's fucking baller. Most people do that is receiving is receiving their package in the mail. That's that's for, you know, buyers, not not necessarily vendors. Vendors have a different threat model. Right. But yeah. That and that that addresses a lot of that problem, which is pretty neat. Yeah. I mean, people talk about, like,
1128
01:35:33.525 --> 01:35:40.745
hardware wallets, like, keeping keeping your address to hardware wallet vendors. Like, people are getting, like, fucking PCPs shipped to themselves.
1129
01:35:42.900 --> 01:35:50.680
And and they're exposing Bitcoin usage. Just like also, you're a drug user and you're a Bitcoin user. Do you do you expose both at the same time?
1130
01:35:52.505 --> 01:35:53.724
Yes. I got it.
1131
01:35:54.184 --> 01:35:57.885
Yeah. Good call. So Maybe set on dead drops. Right?
1132
01:35:58.230 --> 01:36:01.210
Dead drops is cool as fuck. Right? Like, that's a cool concept.
1133
01:36:03.510 --> 01:36:06.570
They don't get enough appreciation for that. That's a really cool idea.
1134
01:36:11.025 --> 01:36:18.660
I I I look, I I think, ultimately, like, people just don't use PGP and and GPG enough, and I I think that's also really important.
1135
01:36:20.240 --> 01:36:26.015
That's purely, like, fuck private messaging. Like, if I don't care if you care about private messaging.
1136
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:41.300
And I'm I I shield it. I put it on on the fucking thing. What are you doing?
1137
01:36:41.920 --> 01:36:43.380
I I I think I think
1138
01:36:44.074 --> 01:36:50.815
you need to be able to verify your software. Right? And so, like, people need to learn how to use PGP and GPG, and they're just not doing it.
1139
01:36:52.300 --> 01:36:59.920
I'm still waiting on the Bitcoin q and a PGP tutorial I haven't I haven't seen that guide yet I haven't seen it well I have a guide at usepgp.com
1140
01:37:01.420 --> 01:37:01.920
oh
1141
01:37:02.255 --> 01:37:13.599
okay. But I didn't write I did it as well. I don't I redirected Just did me drop 1 the other day, and, which is pretty good. It was geared towards core, but perhaps I'll I'll add one to the arsenal. It is on my list.
1142
01:37:14.060 --> 01:37:25.875
I'll be honest. It's one of the ones I keep pushing to the back because I'm I'm trying to come up with ways to do it without boring people to death. Well, my cold card guide actually shows it in line how to do it, but I also
1143
01:37:26.990 --> 01:37:28.930
this is my domain redirect,
1144
01:37:30.190 --> 01:37:31.810
to some other guy's guide,
1145
01:37:32.670 --> 01:37:35.570
on how to do it because use GPG was taken.
1146
01:37:37.185 --> 01:37:43.365
We got it 6102. You can stop showing this that's, you know, this guy's podcast. I like it. It's a good podcast.
1147
01:37:46.100 --> 01:37:50.200
Pass from last episode was a dope password manager. I've never heard of this.
1148
01:37:51.140 --> 01:37:54.120
I like KeePass. KeePass is solid. It's open source.
1149
01:37:54.755 --> 01:37:55.895
It's on many platforms.
1150
01:37:57.235 --> 01:38:00.695
Pardis used PaaS, and that's why he's shilling it.
1151
01:38:02.770 --> 01:38:04.289
Yeah. I mean, do you guys have,
1152
01:38:04.690 --> 01:38:13.235
so we're we're about an hour and 40 minutes in here. I lied to both myself and the freaks and said that I was gonna try and target an hour for the the second time in a row.
1153
01:38:14.175 --> 01:38:17.475
I don't know how many more times I can pass on this lie,
1154
01:38:18.095 --> 01:38:24.280
until it's gonna always be over an hour. Because I honestly this is a great conversation. I don't think we can shorten it.
1155
01:38:25.539 --> 01:38:27.719
Verify Electrum wallet with signature.
1156
01:38:28.340 --> 01:38:30.679
Yeah. You can do that. You should do that.
1157
01:38:32.125 --> 01:38:38.305
I have the guide for how to do that with with the Spectre and cold card, but I don't have it for Electrum.
1158
01:38:42.090 --> 01:38:50.355
Do you guys have things you wanna talk about? You have a you have a topic you wanted to to call me out on as a public Bitcoin figure who has
1159
01:38:50.895 --> 01:38:56.915
been a LARPer in different situations or whatnot? You could rest you know, speak now or I'm gonna hold your peace.
1160
01:38:57.250 --> 01:38:59.490
We're all lapped at the end of the day, aren't we? But,
1161
01:39:00.370 --> 01:39:01.990
you said that you wanted to talk about,
1162
01:39:02.770 --> 01:39:07.235
notes, so I'll open it up to the chat. Yeah. Let's see if I know that you want some question on notes.
1163
01:39:08.195 --> 01:39:12.534
Just while waiting for some questions to come through and bring up some problems. Running a node
1164
01:39:12.915 --> 01:39:19.710
and you're in this chat, hit us with a question. And if you are running a node, hit us with a question, but especially if you're not running a node.
1165
01:39:20.490 --> 01:39:24.555
I'm gonna put you on the spot while I wait for some questions. My Favorite node implementation?
1166
01:39:25.095 --> 01:39:28.235
My favorite I so I ran through all of the,
1167
01:39:30.055 --> 01:39:31.755
247 dedicated nodes.
1168
01:39:32.090 --> 01:39:35.310
You have lightning. You have you have Whirlpool.
1169
01:39:35.770 --> 01:39:36.510
You know?
1170
01:39:37.370 --> 01:39:38.510
Did you have a Casa?
1171
01:39:39.345 --> 01:39:43.285
No. I never had a Casa because that was just obviously garbage to begin with.
1172
01:39:45.025 --> 01:39:45.525
I,
1173
01:39:46.610 --> 01:39:55.590
I mean, they shouldn't have their their their their first generation node was just, like, miserable. The second one, by the time I got it, I just turned it into a Ronin when it came.
1174
01:39:56.985 --> 01:40:00.285
So so I have, like, 6 nodes sitting right in front of me.
1175
01:40:01.065 --> 01:40:06.210
I think, ultimately, at the end of the day, most people can just use a Bitcoin Core Prune node with Spectre
1176
01:40:06.750 --> 01:40:09.489
and a cold card. And then from there, they can
1177
01:40:09.790 --> 01:40:11.170
they can move to other,
1178
01:40:11.949 --> 01:40:15.915
you know, signers. They can add signers to the to the library.
1179
01:40:16.295 --> 01:40:26.050
And I think you have a separate run Ronin dojo or some kind of dojo node that powers your samurai stack, and then, like, that's your coin joint. So you come in
1180
01:40:26.430 --> 01:40:26.930
through
1181
01:40:27.710 --> 01:40:29.489
you're already KYC'd salary.
1182
01:40:29.935 --> 01:40:34.675
You're already getting paid KYC through salary. We went over this in 15 minutes in the beginning,
1183
01:40:36.015 --> 01:40:41.800
and you go through your KYC fucking bullshit stacking stats, whatever, you know, bullshit,
1184
01:40:42.340 --> 01:40:43.239
auto DCA,
1185
01:40:43.940 --> 01:40:48.565
and then it comes in and it goes right through Whirlpool, and then it goes into Spectre,
1186
01:40:50.625 --> 01:40:51.685
Spectre plus
1187
01:40:52.385 --> 01:40:59.800
core plus whatever signers you choose. In the beginning, I think Coldcard is the best one to choose. And my guide for that is that we run bitcoin.com.
1188
01:41:04.655 --> 01:41:06.595
One of the questions that came up before,
1189
01:41:07.055 --> 01:41:08.655
tied into what you just said was,
1190
01:41:09.775 --> 01:41:13.540
I forget who asked it, but they they they asked the question of, do do we,
1191
01:41:14.160 --> 01:41:15.860
leave a 100% of our sats,
1192
01:41:16.720 --> 01:41:17.860
running through Whirlpool?
1193
01:41:19.280 --> 01:41:20.500
Yeah. What do we do there?
1194
01:41:21.395 --> 01:41:24.455
For me personally, yes. Conjuring absolutely everything.
1195
01:41:26.515 --> 01:41:37.460
I'm gonna get some shit from the samurai guys, but I do say from our Yeah. Well, I was just about to say I'm gonna get some shit from the samurai guys, but I do siphon off some into cold storage. Oh. I've I've got Shamrock on the cover. But I'm curious.
1196
01:41:38.405 --> 01:41:38.905
But,
1197
01:41:40.005 --> 01:41:46.005
I do keep a a a a predetermined level in there that I used to spend in Yeah. We know. I think but but
1198
01:41:46.970 --> 01:42:05.010
Ergo, give them shit. No. No. I'm not gonna give them shit. That's a that's a very reasonable thing to do. And I That's what I do. I much prefer that to the, hey. I'm sending everything back with my hardware wallet. So No. No. No. That's what I do. What I do is I exactly what what what BQA just said. It is. I I do the same exact thing.
1199
01:42:06.190 --> 01:42:15.735
I mean, if you're talking about if let's be honest here. If we're talking about perfect privacy and perfect privacy, bullshit. We're talking about your you want your focus as privacy,
1200
01:42:16.355 --> 01:42:18.775
you keep it all in in in Whirlpool
1201
01:42:19.315 --> 01:42:21.015
forever until you spend it.
1202
01:42:21.360 --> 01:42:24.180
If we're talking about perfect security, you never go into Whirlpool.
1203
01:42:25.040 --> 01:42:31.445
Perfect security. We're talking about prior prioritizing security, you never go into Whirlpool. You just go straight into some kind
1204
01:42:31.905 --> 01:42:34.405
of air gapped, cold type of situation.
1205
01:42:35.265 --> 01:42:40.070
But, really, the ideal situation for most people is probably, like, a middle ish ground.
1206
01:42:41.410 --> 01:42:52.355
Yeah. And that's the whole other thing. You know? Like, 20% that you leave remixing just because you can't, you know, and, like, send the rest to your hardware wallet or whatever. You know, it doesn't have to be, you know, all or nothing.
1207
01:42:52.735 --> 01:43:05.935
Right. You know, especially if you've got a dedicated device that's got good hygiene, right, like a Raspberry Pi that's only ever, you know, had Ronin Dojo installed or whatever. All that Bitcoin q and a, he's the node guy. You know, talk about that a little bit more.
1208
01:43:06.315 --> 01:43:08.255
But, you know, that's that's definitely reasonable.
1209
01:43:11.275 --> 01:43:16.460
Yeah. I think I just wanna touch on one of the the issues around I get a lot of DMs about,
1210
01:43:17.739 --> 01:43:33.350
which is good. You know, people wanna increase their privacy. Like, right. I wanna I wanna, whirlpool all of my stats. I'm like, okay. Great. Then, like, right. I wanna go and send it all to my call card and it's all to my ledger. And I'm just like, woah. Hold on. Hold on. So this is what this is where a lot of people trip themselves up is that, you know, they'll they'll send the whole statue kit through,
1211
01:43:33.830 --> 01:43:44.865
through Whirlpool, get some great forward looking privacy. You know, they might have bought on Coinbase or something like that, but they've vanished through Whirlpool. They've they've got a good level. They've brought these deterministic links. You know, they they've kind of,
1212
01:43:46.530 --> 01:43:51.830
the UTXO has been baptized again. They've got a fresh start. And then they go and send it all to,
1213
01:43:52.210 --> 01:43:59.735
to a ledger that's got no coin control because they're using it with a a wallet software that doesn't allow them to to manage those ETF tools effectively.
1214
01:44:00.115 --> 01:44:04.480
So they might sit there for 5 years, you know, gain a load of value, great stuff.
1215
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:15.585
And then they come to spend it again, and they just merge all that together to send it back to an exchange somewhere. And and effectively, all they've done is just completely wasted a load of sats in Whirlpool.
1216
01:44:15.965 --> 01:44:19.505
Because by merging those GTXOs together again, you know, they're showing
1217
01:44:19.805 --> 01:44:20.705
common ownership,
1218
01:44:21.550 --> 01:44:22.830
which is something that,
1219
01:44:24.190 --> 01:44:26.290
chain spies like Ergo look for.
1220
01:44:26.830 --> 01:44:27.330
And
1221
01:44:27.870 --> 01:44:31.415
so I I just, urge people listening to this to be
1222
01:44:31.875 --> 01:44:34.695
less hasty when trying to throw everything through Whirlpool
1223
01:44:34.995 --> 01:44:41.000
and then get it off there because it's a hot wallet as fast as possible. You know? Well, let's jump into Nuance a little bit.
1224
01:44:43.219 --> 01:44:44.679
Of what? Go to town.
1225
01:44:45.595 --> 01:44:49.295
I I I I wanna so so when we come out when we come out of Whirlpool,
1226
01:44:50.395 --> 01:44:54.575
samurai intentionally tries to protect yours protect you from yourself.
1227
01:44:55.280 --> 01:44:59.460
So if if you spend less if you spend less than half
1228
01:45:00.080 --> 01:45:05.855
of your your post Whirlpool stash, so you've gone through coin join, you've gone through this coordinated coin join round.
1229
01:45:06.555 --> 01:45:11.215
Presumably, you've hopefully stayed in there for a little bit, so there's remix potential.
1230
01:45:11.700 --> 01:45:16.440
Even if you don't remix, the fact that other participants in your first mix remix
1231
01:45:16.980 --> 01:45:19.255
kind of counts for yourself as well.
1232
01:45:20.614 --> 01:45:22.074
So then you go to spend.
1233
01:45:22.534 --> 01:45:36.315
If you spend less than half, it simulates a fake coin join. So it it it it simulates it simulates a real coin join, not a fake coin join. It simulates a real coin join that you're with another person, and you guys are both contributing
1234
01:45:36.775 --> 01:45:44.395
outputs for it. And then you can also do a fucking real coin join with another person that doesn't have samurai involved at all,
1235
01:45:45.350 --> 01:45:51.290
that is, like, a real 2 person coin join or potentially a 3 person coin join if the 2 of you pay a 3rd person.
1236
01:45:54.445 --> 01:46:04.830
So that's awesome. Yeah. I I I don't know where I'm going with this. My my point is my point is is you really have to care about what happens after that coin joint. The the the
1237
01:46:05.605 --> 01:46:08.905
you know, like, Whirlpool doesn't just automatically protect you.
1238
01:46:09.925 --> 01:46:13.305
Wasabi doesn't automatically protect you on steroids.
1239
01:46:14.480 --> 01:46:16.099
You you you have to
1240
01:46:16.960 --> 01:46:20.260
once you do this process, you have to deal with
1241
01:46:20.639 --> 01:46:21.699
what are the repercussions
1242
01:46:22.079 --> 01:46:23.300
of my next step.
1243
01:46:24.705 --> 01:46:29.125
What am I giving up? What am I exposing about myself on the next step?
1244
01:46:29.985 --> 01:46:40.980
And and this goes back to what I said earlier, which is is is the the biggest issue I have as a as someone who's trying to educate people on Bitcoin using Bitcoin in a more self sovereign way is that,
1245
01:46:42.575 --> 01:46:44.594
there's so many ways you can just fuck yourself.
1246
01:46:46.815 --> 01:46:55.240
Yeah. I mean, it's not easy, and and this is where where samurai really shines. I mean, the the default is it doesn't let you fuck yourself
1247
01:46:55.860 --> 01:47:00.680
over. You know, if you try and spend your whole wallet balance after you've you've gone through a whirlpool,
1248
01:47:01.585 --> 01:47:06.565
you're gonna get a hefty warning to say, you know, this is this is a bad idea.
1249
01:47:07.265 --> 01:47:08.625
And like you touched on,
1250
01:47:09.745 --> 01:47:10.645
if you'd spend
1251
01:47:11.010 --> 01:47:14.210
just under half your balance, as a general rule of thumb, it'll trigger that,
1252
01:47:14.930 --> 01:47:16.310
simulated coin joint,
1253
01:47:16.770 --> 01:47:17.590
which is
1254
01:47:18.130 --> 01:47:19.990
the wallet will always try and,
1255
01:47:21.975 --> 01:47:23.595
trigger that type of spend
1256
01:47:24.695 --> 01:47:29.835
by default. You know, it's on by default as long as you meet those spending conditions of less than half
1257
01:47:30.889 --> 01:47:31.769
half of your,
1258
01:47:32.250 --> 01:47:33.070
wallet balance.
1259
01:47:33.449 --> 01:47:34.829
That is the default transaction.
1260
01:47:35.210 --> 01:47:39.869
So it's it's it's look at it as guide rails. You know, it's built to
1261
01:47:40.235 --> 01:47:40.735
to,
1262
01:47:41.275 --> 01:47:43.055
stop you from fucking yourself over.
1263
01:47:43.915 --> 01:47:46.015
So just just tying that back to
1264
01:47:47.170 --> 01:47:50.789
the the sending everything back to cold storage. You know, appreciate,
1265
01:47:53.090 --> 01:47:58.535
the the best option for for privacy is to leave it remixed in Whirlpool. Completely agree.
1266
01:47:59.075 --> 01:48:07.630
You know, the the nothing's gonna beat that because you your your sort of your privacy is only growing when you get remixes and when your peers get remixes, which is fantastic.
1267
01:48:08.329 --> 01:48:11.715
But there is absolutely gonna be people that haven't got that,
1268
01:48:12.655 --> 01:48:16.575
risk tolerance to say, I don't want any of my sats on a hot wallet.
1269
01:48:17.215 --> 01:48:22.850
I don't want any of my keys online. I just I just wanna get some privacy and then send it all to cold storage.
1270
01:48:23.389 --> 01:48:25.650
So stonewall by default, absolutely.
1271
01:48:27.925 --> 01:48:29.865
The samurai guys have now released,
1272
01:48:30.245 --> 01:48:30.745
Soroban,
1273
01:48:32.085 --> 01:48:33.625
massive, massive Soroban
1274
01:48:34.005 --> 01:48:34.505
maximalist,
1275
01:48:35.685 --> 01:48:37.545
which is a a an encrypted
1276
01:48:38.470 --> 01:48:40.250
tool based communication layer
1277
01:48:40.710 --> 01:48:43.130
that, allows you to coordinate these
1278
01:48:43.990 --> 01:48:46.970
2 person coin joints called Stonewall X Twos
1279
01:48:47.645 --> 01:48:49.185
with anybody on the planet,
1280
01:48:49.725 --> 01:48:51.025
in a matter of seconds.
1281
01:48:51.965 --> 01:48:57.550
The the guys who got a Telegram group where you can sort of coordinate these and find a a mixed partner.
1282
01:48:58.570 --> 01:49:01.070
And it's all coordinated within within the app.
1283
01:49:01.690 --> 01:49:12.130
And you can you can conduct these spends, which completely screw a chain analysis, which I'm sure Hugo can touch a bit more on. But these spends just completely skew that transaction graph.
1284
01:49:13.170 --> 01:49:17.350
So it's another great option to to sort of preserve your privacy when you're leaving the pool.
1285
01:49:17.810 --> 01:49:20.070
Whether you're whether it's a spend to a merchant,
1286
01:49:20.525 --> 01:49:22.465
or you spend to see your own cold storage,
1287
01:49:23.005 --> 01:49:25.745
always look to to do a Stonewall or Stonewall X2,
1288
01:49:26.285 --> 01:49:27.665
wherever possible, really.
1289
01:49:28.285 --> 01:49:29.185
So we have,
1290
01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:32.180
both Riccardo Masutti,
1291
01:49:33.360 --> 01:49:36.580
and Typerboli are they're basically asking the same thing,
1292
01:49:37.375 --> 01:49:40.914
and I think this is a pretty important question that gets asked all the time.
1293
01:49:43.295 --> 01:49:56.685
Besides usability, let's say you you you figure out how to use join market, and you you get it working, and you're working with your own node. What is the negative? What is the negative of of using join market versus something like Whirlpool?
1294
01:50:00.640 --> 01:50:06.695
I think well, the obvious one, I I can't talk from experience because joint market, if I'm being honest, scares me.
1295
01:50:07.255 --> 01:50:10.395
Keep it simple. Bitcoin did a a very thorough
1296
01:50:12.135 --> 01:50:15.514
guide for joint market the other day, which I've gone through a couple of times.
1297
01:50:16.620 --> 01:50:17.360
And I think
1298
01:50:17.740 --> 01:50:18.400
it it's,
1299
01:50:19.740 --> 01:50:23.275
obviously, there's no centralized coordinator. It's entirely peer to peer,
1300
01:50:24.074 --> 01:50:24.975
but it's,
1301
01:50:25.755 --> 01:50:28.415
very coordinator is the taker in joint market?
1302
01:50:29.275 --> 01:50:34.260
Yeah. But there's no centralized coordinator. It's like like you get within, Whirlpool or Wasabi.
1303
01:50:36.560 --> 01:50:37.940
Ergo. Hit us.
1304
01:50:39.815 --> 01:50:44.955
You're gonna make me do it, or you're gonna do it? No. No. It it's fine. I'm not muted. Right? Yeah. No.
1305
01:50:45.815 --> 01:50:52.450
I think Joy Market's pretty pretty neat. They they sort of blazed the trail for, you know, this noncustodial
1306
01:50:53.470 --> 01:50:54.290
coin join,
1307
01:50:54.750 --> 01:50:59.455
and they got a lot of things right. They did, you know, they did their mixed depth kinda scheme,
1308
01:51:00.075 --> 01:51:08.860
which, for the people that don't know, is sort of just how many, you know, mixes have your coins been through. And each of your separate kind of mix depths,
1309
01:51:09.480 --> 01:51:11.580
you know, are kept segregated,
1310
01:51:12.280 --> 01:51:16.140
kind of the segregated account model. So, like, you know, that foot gun thing where
1311
01:51:16.455 --> 01:51:18.795
the select all button, you know, people
1312
01:51:19.255 --> 01:51:28.110
select their unmixed change and spend it with their mixed coins. That happens with Wasabi. That doesn't happen with JoinMarket, you know, and they saw this first. They did it first in, whatever, 2015, 2016.
1313
01:51:28.570 --> 01:51:33.470
The other kind of thing that's neat about JoinMarket is it's sort of, like, dynamic in its kind of own way.
1314
01:51:34.545 --> 01:51:39.125
You know, the I think the joint market devs, they they call it, fixed denominations
1315
01:51:39.505 --> 01:51:54.385
are are bad, and they use that to refer to Wasabi and kind of Whirlpool. But what they mean is that there is no fixed up denomination for joint market and that the sort of the market theory is, you know, okay. The users come together. They they pick a denomination. They agree to do the mix,
1316
01:51:54.845 --> 01:51:59.345
whatever the denomination is. So it's not quite as static as that sort of, you know,
1317
01:51:59.869 --> 01:52:04.050
100% entropy coin join that kind of, you know, Whirlpool has.
1318
01:52:04.750 --> 01:52:09.855
But it also has the downside of having the unmixed change that sort of just follows users along
1319
01:52:10.235 --> 01:52:11.855
and can cause problems.
1320
01:52:12.875 --> 01:52:14.335
And we talked about this in
1321
01:52:14.875 --> 01:52:18.255
the toxic recall report that we did, you know, several months ago
1322
01:52:19.730 --> 01:52:23.110
about, you know, a user who allegedly had their coin stolen.
1323
01:52:23.410 --> 01:52:26.390
They were mixed through JoinMarket and, you know, well,
1324
01:52:27.125 --> 01:52:29.864
we were able to use the the unmixed change to basically
1325
01:52:30.245 --> 01:52:30.745
isolate
1326
01:52:31.125 --> 01:52:34.745
their their mixed outputs and follow them through the mixer.
1327
01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:40.460
So that's one of the things that I don't like about joint market is that it's it's less than,
1328
01:52:40.840 --> 01:52:44.780
100% entropy. It's not a true zero link kind of implementation,
1329
01:52:45.665 --> 01:52:52.405
because I think that sort of opens up a lot of things. So that's kind of my take on sort of the on chain side and, you know, Bitcoin Q and A talked about kind of the
1330
01:52:52.980 --> 01:52:57.800
usability issues. But I I do think that, you know, those guys did a lot of good work early on.
1331
01:53:00.715 --> 01:53:01.775
Yeah. I mean, I
1332
01:53:02.795 --> 01:53:32.260
I I I What else? 6102 is talking about post mix spending tools. He's talking about that. One of the things that I don't like about join market is that you can pay to someone in the mix, and I think that there's a misconception that, oh, this is great for efficiency, and you can just put in your, you know, output destination address, and you you basically make that that coin join your spend. Right. What I don't like is that you can do that to a reused address at Binance, for example. Right. It ruins the mix for other people.
1333
01:53:33.005 --> 01:53:37.665
It ruins everyone's mix. Ruins everyone's mix. So it it kinda cuts both ways.
1334
01:53:39.245 --> 01:53:40.705
But that's why makers,
1335
01:53:41.690 --> 01:53:42.750
should just never
1336
01:53:43.210 --> 01:53:47.790
get any they just assume they're getting no privacy, right, in a joint market model?
1337
01:53:48.705 --> 01:53:55.125
I wouldn't say no. I mean, it's not no privacy. Assume I'm I'm saying they should assume no privacy as as an extreme.
1338
01:53:55.610 --> 01:53:58.990
Right? Like, you should assume an extreme so that you're safe.
1339
01:53:59.370 --> 01:54:03.645
Yeah. I mean, it's it is always good to to be as conservative as you kinda can.
1340
01:54:04.525 --> 01:54:12.065
Right? And it's like it's comes back to that sort of thing that we sort of started off at the beginning when you say, like, perfect privacy or zero privacy, and it's
1341
01:54:12.685 --> 01:54:13.585
it's not
1342
01:54:14.510 --> 01:54:23.170
on or off. It's not yes or no. It's privacy against who or whom, privacy against whom, and and, you know, how much privacy against whom.
1343
01:54:23.605 --> 01:54:25.945
So, you know, it's it's a whole spectrum. So,
1344
01:54:27.205 --> 01:54:28.324
let me see what else.
1345
01:54:29.765 --> 01:54:30.425
6102 is asking,
1346
01:54:30.800 --> 01:54:33.620
might be worth talking about the differences between unmixed change,
1347
01:54:34.320 --> 01:54:35.540
dry market and Wasabi.
1348
01:54:36.880 --> 01:54:43.045
Well, I mean, the the change is it's a very similar process, but the difference is that Wasabi has the added
1349
01:54:43.985 --> 01:54:46.885
negative of the address reuse, which when
1350
01:54:47.505 --> 01:54:48.725
a mixed output
1351
01:54:49.200 --> 01:54:50.180
pays to an address
1352
01:54:50.880 --> 01:54:53.780
and then an unmixed output pays to that same address,
1353
01:54:54.240 --> 01:55:00.804
that at you know, that mixed output is now deanonymized and whatever potential, you know, follow-up spends are deanonymized along with it.
1354
01:55:01.824 --> 01:55:07.925
And that's something that just hasn't been fixed for whatever reason. Well, so so so let's unpack this,
1355
01:55:09.080 --> 01:55:11.900
because I think this is this is why I have this show,
1356
01:55:12.600 --> 01:55:14.460
because we talk about shit like this,
1357
01:55:14.840 --> 01:55:19.875
when other people, like, somehow, like, biggest story of 2020, no one talks about it.
1358
01:55:21.655 --> 01:55:22.155
The
1359
01:55:23.295 --> 01:55:24.114
they had
1360
01:55:24.574 --> 01:55:25.074
bad
1361
01:55:25.450 --> 01:55:26.990
address use first,
1362
01:55:28.170 --> 01:55:30.590
and that was the fixed fee address.
1363
01:55:31.290 --> 01:55:42.285
Like, literally, every single wasabi mix, wasabi coin join. We try not to talk I I don't I don't want to call it mix. I wanna call it coin join. Every single wasabi coin join was,
1364
01:55:43.620 --> 01:55:45.240
paying to the same fee address,
1365
01:55:45.780 --> 01:55:47.960
so they were all tainted by the same fee address.
1366
01:55:48.580 --> 01:55:50.120
And we saw a lot of exchanges
1367
01:55:50.725 --> 01:55:54.025
have issues with that because it was, like, very right in their face.
1368
01:55:55.605 --> 01:55:56.905
People say CoinJoin
1369
01:55:57.364 --> 01:55:58.745
has issues at exchanges.
1370
01:55:59.285 --> 01:56:02.170
No. We've only had issues with
1371
01:56:04.070 --> 01:56:04.730
with Wasabi,
1372
01:56:06.790 --> 01:56:07.290
fee
1373
01:56:08.585 --> 01:56:08.905
reuse.
1374
01:56:10.505 --> 01:56:14.925
Since then, they've also had just fee reuse, like,
1375
01:56:16.469 --> 01:56:22.809
address reuse within mixes constantly, not the fee. The fee so they've switched it. So now
1376
01:56:23.295 --> 01:56:29.235
the fee is an x pub, so we're we're good on that. So the fee is always paid to a different address.
1377
01:56:31.010 --> 01:56:35.750
But but but within the mix within the fucking mix within the coin join,
1378
01:56:36.210 --> 01:56:36.950
we have
1379
01:56:38.290 --> 01:56:40.470
address paying to the same address. Right?
1380
01:56:41.715 --> 01:56:52.890
Yeah. That's the issue we're talking about now. Yeah. Exactly. We're talking about a different kind of address for use. And there's a there's a couple sort of different kinds. One of them would be symmetric address for use. That would be
1381
01:56:53.850 --> 01:56:59.385
on the input side, we have one address, and on the output side, we also have that same address.
1382
01:56:59.685 --> 01:57:01.465
Okay? So that's, you know,
1383
01:57:01.844 --> 01:57:10.270
obviously, the input address is owned by the output address. That's the same person. And that could be a mixed output. That could be an unmixed output. That could be a change output.
1384
01:57:10.570 --> 01:57:12.110
That could be, you know, both.
1385
01:57:12.465 --> 01:57:21.844
And then the other address reuse that I mentioned a little while ago is the one that's not symmetric where it's reused on both sides, the input and the output side.
1386
01:57:22.580 --> 01:57:23.240
It's when
1387
01:57:23.940 --> 01:57:24.440
a
1388
01:57:25.220 --> 01:57:37.875
mixed output is paid to an address. It doesn't you know, just any address, and that a change output is paid to that same address or vice versa. Basically, you know, a mixed output and a change output go to the same address. And so
1389
01:57:38.310 --> 01:57:40.090
if that mixed output is spent,
1390
01:57:40.710 --> 01:57:42.410
it's technically deanonymized.
1391
01:57:43.030 --> 01:57:52.014
Right? Or any outputs that are also spent along with that that mixed output, You know, it's de anonymized. So they got we got rid of the the static fee address,
1392
01:57:52.715 --> 01:57:53.855
but the
1393
01:57:54.554 --> 01:57:56.940
systemic address for use was, you know
1394
01:57:57.240 --> 01:57:59.420
To be clear here to be clear here,
1395
01:58:01.800 --> 01:58:07.465
Ricardo is saying, Wasabi coin joins are easily identifiable in the blockchain without the fixed address. Yes.
1396
01:58:08.324 --> 01:58:08.824
But
1397
01:58:09.764 --> 01:58:10.824
when when
1398
01:58:11.204 --> 01:58:11.704
the
1399
01:58:12.200 --> 01:58:13.400
the coin
1400
01:58:13.880 --> 01:58:18.620
the the fucking chain analysis, the chain surveillance companies are identifying
1401
01:58:19.000 --> 01:58:20.700
transactions based on proximity,
1402
01:58:21.705 --> 01:58:33.389
It is it is very obvious to them that one scam transaction went into a wasabi mix, and then it connected to that fee address. So you're throwing it right in their face, and you're making them have to fucking deal with it.
1403
01:58:33.770 --> 01:58:37.070
The thing is is is the majority of companies,
1404
01:58:37.375 --> 01:58:42.594
if it's not right in their face, if they're not, like, completely it's not completely obvious to them,
1405
01:58:43.455 --> 01:58:45.635
if it's just a tiny little bit
1406
01:58:46.255 --> 01:58:46.755
hidden,
1407
01:58:47.220 --> 01:58:53.880
they just won't care about it. And that's the difference. The the the difference is that the Wasabi fixed fee address is basically,
1408
01:58:54.315 --> 01:58:59.455
let's just shove it into the face of every single compliance bro at every single fucking exchange
1409
01:59:00.074 --> 01:59:11.610
and, like, expect them not to fucking do something about it. Of course, they're gonna do something about it. If you, like, kinda hide it a little bit, they're less likely to fucking do something about it. That's that's the real result. That's the truth.
1410
01:59:13.725 --> 01:59:14.865
On that note,
1411
01:59:15.405 --> 01:59:15.905
separately,
1412
01:59:17.485 --> 01:59:20.469
the coordinator for Wasabi is is allowing
1413
01:59:20.929 --> 01:59:22.550
systemic address reuse,
1414
01:59:23.810 --> 01:59:32.155
which reduces the anonymity set, and you're paying on a per basis on the anonymity set. So if it's not the full anonymity set, it's still not
1415
01:59:32.534 --> 01:59:35.114
that huge of an issue, but it's it is an issue.
1416
01:59:37.000 --> 01:59:37.739
And then
1417
01:59:38.679 --> 01:59:41.880
on on top of I guess, on on on top of all of that
1418
01:59:47.065 --> 01:59:48.125
Yeah. I I
1419
01:59:48.905 --> 01:59:55.885
I I mean, on top of all of that, like, I think you should just really just not be depositing into KYC institutions. Like, you should not be considering that.
1420
01:59:56.190 --> 01:59:56.929
And then
1421
01:59:57.309 --> 02:00:02.190
last but not least, the as far as we're concerned, do we agree that joint market
1422
02:00:02.750 --> 02:00:06.135
if if if you're not expecting privacy as a maker
1423
02:00:06.695 --> 02:00:11.595
like, if you're a taker, you're getting decent privacy. Like, you're getting pretty good privacy as a taker.
1424
02:00:14.650 --> 02:00:23.595
Yeah. I I mean, the the the last thing I'll say, you know, is, yes, you can get your nonfixed denomination, and that might be the exact size that you need.
1425
02:00:25.295 --> 02:00:25.795
But,
1426
02:00:26.375 --> 02:00:30.600
you know, kind of the thing that I like about Whirlpool and I keep sort of coming back to is that,
1427
02:00:31.240 --> 02:00:35.500
you know, Whirlpool, I just sort of look at it as kind of like a wall.
1428
02:00:36.440 --> 02:00:38.940
And on one side, all your premixed coins,
1429
02:00:39.675 --> 02:00:44.015
wall could be as long as it needs to be as long as you remix. And then on the other side,
1430
02:00:44.315 --> 02:00:47.775
you kind of get to spend kind of freely. And
1431
02:00:48.770 --> 02:00:54.949
without these sort of new long deterministic kind of peel chains, which and you talked about stonewalls before,
1432
02:00:55.809 --> 02:01:01.295
which is, you know, either a simulated 2 person coin joiner, in this case, a 2 person coin joiner.
1433
02:01:01.595 --> 02:01:03.615
So you can then, you know,
1434
02:01:03.989 --> 02:01:08.489
transition through the mixing process and spend however much you need to spend without
1435
02:01:09.510 --> 02:01:10.010
any
1436
02:01:10.310 --> 02:01:18.954
of the other negatives that sort of affect kind of the mixing process. And that's sort of why I like you know, and why I've sort of gravitated sort of towards samurai is that it's
1437
02:01:19.255 --> 02:01:21.835
sort of meant to be spent and the other ones
1438
02:01:22.590 --> 02:01:24.290
not kind of so much.
1439
02:01:24.830 --> 02:01:36.815
You know, so and if you're looking to kind of come back to the sort of full circle, you know, I wanna be able to spend my Bitcoin and, you know, avoid censorship resistance and participate in kind of a, you know, a free speech,
1440
02:01:37.594 --> 02:01:40.094
you know, voluntary economy. I mean,
1441
02:01:41.610 --> 02:01:43.550
there's nothing better at this point.
1442
02:01:53.085 --> 02:01:58.864
Yeah. Bitcoin q and a, you're just gonna you're just cool. He's cool. Everything's fine over there.
1443
02:02:02.210 --> 02:02:03.750
He doesn't wanna be on the record.
1444
02:02:04.929 --> 02:02:05.179
I
1445
02:02:06.845 --> 02:02:08.865
I was muted. I was muted. Sorry.
1446
02:02:09.565 --> 02:02:12.225
Oh, yeah. I'm sure you had very vocal
1447
02:02:13.485 --> 02:02:14.625
vocal concerns.
1448
02:02:17.210 --> 02:02:21.390
On Musa by use or on I don't know. Do you have anything for us?
1449
02:02:22.010 --> 02:02:27.915
I mean, I'll I'll just sign off. I mean, I'm not one for Twitter drama. I'm not one for for,
1450
02:02:28.635 --> 02:02:32.335
No. I mean, not Twitter drama. Fuck Twitter drama. What about join market
1451
02:02:32.690 --> 02:02:33.830
join market versus,
1452
02:02:35.090 --> 02:02:39.430
Whirlpool. Right? Like, why are why are we using Whirlpool versus join market?
1453
02:02:40.245 --> 02:02:45.465
I mean, join market just looks too fucking difficult, I'll be honest. Have you tried it? Easy.
1454
02:02:45.925 --> 02:02:49.449
No. No. Okay. Well, I mean, you should be it's very difficult.
1455
02:02:50.469 --> 02:02:51.050
I mean,
1456
02:02:51.590 --> 02:03:03.065
well, the thing I like about Whirlpool, right, is you've got 3 tiers. You you can start dead easy. You could just get an Android phone, download Samura wallet, and start mixing in in a matter of minutes.
1457
02:03:03.400 --> 02:03:12.860
Simple as that. Right? You can then get some really good privacy just using your phone. No. I mean, I think my biggest complaint with Whirlpool is that it's not easy enough.
1458
02:03:14.485 --> 02:03:20.425
Like, it's difficult that I have to work people through it in terms especially if I want them to use their own Dojo,
1459
02:03:21.080 --> 02:03:25.900
which I think everyone should use their own Dojo. Like, that's difficult for me, but it's still,
1460
02:03:26.360 --> 02:03:38.454
like, a 1000000 times easier than working them through fucking join market. What's the pain point there? What's the hard part for people? Well, I mean, the hardest part is fucking Dojo. But then, also, just, like,
1461
02:03:39.050 --> 02:03:39.550
conceptualizing
1462
02:03:40.010 --> 02:03:40.510
shit.
1463
02:03:42.250 --> 02:03:43.870
Right? Like, you have to conceptualize
1464
02:03:47.034 --> 02:03:49.215
the whole the whole process involves,
1465
02:03:49.915 --> 02:03:50.735
like, logical
1466
02:03:51.114 --> 02:03:52.735
decision making. Right?
1467
02:03:54.040 --> 02:04:00.540
Like, using Bitcoin privately were like, it involves, like, personal responsibility and, like, actually
1468
02:04:01.080 --> 02:04:02.620
making decisions for yourself.
1469
02:04:05.125 --> 02:04:13.989
Yeah. No. I I I agree. You know, there's still a lot of work to be done, but what I will say is that is that right now, samurai is is the easiest way. It's got the biggest guardrails.
1470
02:04:14.290 --> 02:04:19.429
It's the easiest way to get started, and it's the hardest way to fuck yourself over. I don't think guys.
1471
02:04:20.130 --> 02:04:20.630
What?
1472
02:04:20.995 --> 02:04:22.375
Here come the Monero guys.
1473
02:04:23.395 --> 02:04:28.935
The Monero guys, we lost them. You see see, we're successful. It's been 2 hours, so they're gone now.
1474
02:04:29.555 --> 02:04:30.055
Okay?
1475
02:04:30.880 --> 02:04:34.340
So they're no longer bothering us. They only came in for the beginning part.
1476
02:04:35.520 --> 02:04:43.165
6102 is saying the fees are the hardest part. I don't think the fees are the hardest part. I think it's very difficult. I think you have to conceptualize. Like, you have to actually,
1477
02:04:44.185 --> 02:04:49.700
like, process privacy as as a goal and, like, try and make it happen. That's the difficult part.
1478
02:04:52.240 --> 02:04:56.324
I mean, 6 foot so q and a is done literally a
1479
02:04:56.784 --> 02:04:58.724
a Whirlpool fee, you know,
1480
02:04:59.344 --> 02:04:59.844
calculator,
1481
02:05:00.224 --> 02:05:05.190
proximator, estimator, however you wanna call it. And people should definitely check that out because,
1482
02:05:06.130 --> 02:05:06.630
it's
1483
02:05:07.090 --> 02:05:18.055
pretty simple. You put in the number of inputs that you you're gonna have, the number of outputs you're gonna have, and you get an estimate for what the fee is gonna be. I think that people have a hard time with the flat fee concept.
1484
02:05:19.315 --> 02:05:21.735
And and, you know, even some of the
1485
02:05:22.100 --> 02:05:22.600
everyone
1486
02:05:22.980 --> 02:05:24.120
misunderstands the fees,
1487
02:05:24.660 --> 02:05:27.320
if you mix 1 Bitcoin and the 0.001
1488
02:05:28.820 --> 02:05:29.320
pool,
1489
02:05:30.005 --> 02:05:31.625
you only pay 0.005
1490
02:05:34.485 --> 02:05:39.100
in coordinator fees. If you mix 10 Bitcoin and the 0.001
1491
02:05:39.880 --> 02:05:42.460
pool, you still pay the same amount, 0.005.
1492
02:05:43.240 --> 02:05:45.660
And that's the thing that I think a lot of people mix is that
1493
02:05:46.255 --> 02:05:52.835
each deposit, you pay the same amount no matter how much the deposit is and deposits the wrong term. But,
1494
02:05:53.695 --> 02:05:54.275
you know,
1495
02:05:54.969 --> 02:05:58.429
I I know some people have a hard time with that. I think people have
1496
02:05:58.890 --> 02:06:11.415
more of a hard time with, you know we've sort of swung in kind of the two directions. I think it's better the way that things have been going recently. People use what daddy Warbits just said. What? What did he say? This is the problem. Nailed it.
1497
02:06:12.280 --> 02:06:16.219
I have no idea how Whirlpool works, but I use it. I use it.
1498
02:06:18.895 --> 02:06:28.970
I mean, there there it is. That's the problem, Ergo. That that is literally the he summed up the problem in a single sentence. I push the button and it goes mix. It could be more difficult.
1499
02:06:34.305 --> 02:06:47.590
I think the bit where people trip themselves up, just riffing on what you just said over there about, you know, it's a fixed fee, is that using that example, if you're gonna throw a full Bitcoin through one of the smaller pools, which I've seen people do, unfortunately,
1500
02:06:48.210 --> 02:06:51.590
is that, you know, in high fee environments, they're gonna get massively stung
1501
02:06:52.155 --> 02:06:52.635
with,
1502
02:06:54.074 --> 02:07:04.930
with a hell of a lot of minor fees because they're they're dividing that one Bitcoin into a absolute shit ton of of smaller UTXOs, which is what they've done. You know, they've told the app to do it. It's not a fault with the protocol or anything like that.
1503
02:07:05.310 --> 02:07:10.865
But it it it's a fact of the matter is that people don't consider incentive is not fees on top.
1504
02:07:12.205 --> 02:07:12.705
Right.
1505
02:07:13.245 --> 02:07:25.200
I mean, I don't know if it's broken, but it the incentive is what the incentive is. I mean, it's it's it's way more expensive to to do the 50,000,000 sat pool than if you did the same exact amount over to the
1506
02:07:25.585 --> 02:07:30.325
1,000,000 sat pool. I mean, if everyone was perfectly rational and they totally understood,
1507
02:07:30.865 --> 02:07:51.114
you know, the fee model, they would do their own calculation, and they would say, oh, this one is obviously cheaper. You know? They just have to have that kind of knowledge. But at the same time, you can do your own sort of heuristic. And I just pick I'm just gonna pick a number. I'm gonna say, if you have more than 20 if you're gonna get more than 20 outputs, then you should go to the next pool up.
1508
02:07:51.735 --> 02:07:53.355
And if you're at the 0.5
1509
02:07:53.895 --> 02:07:56.610
pool and you're gonna get more than 20 outputs,
1510
02:07:56.990 --> 02:08:04.664
let us know. But I wish it just had, like it should have, like, a cascade mode or whatever. Yeah. And I think that I think that the guys have talked about that.
1511
02:08:05.445 --> 02:08:11.545
You know, some and and all my this guy, za yaa yaa za. He's like, I just probably overpaid.
1512
02:08:18.795 --> 02:08:25.775
I remember realize you could put in, like, a larger amount to get a lower fee percentage wise for, like, half until halfway through.
1513
02:08:26.395 --> 02:08:28.415
I will say one other thing is that,
1514
02:08:29.080 --> 02:08:33.020
I think the the development team is planning to introduce smaller pools.
1515
02:08:33.960 --> 02:08:36.940
Right now, it's the 0.5 BTC pool, 0.05
1516
02:08:37.825 --> 02:08:43.045
BTC pool. You gotta talk in Sats, bro. I know. I don't talk in Sats. I'm sorry. I'm broken. And the 0.01
1517
02:08:43.505 --> 02:08:46.005
pool, I think that there are some plans for a 0.001
1518
02:08:47.730 --> 02:08:51.270
or 0.001. Have the lowest pool be fucking $300.
1519
02:08:52.130 --> 02:09:04.695
That's fucking ridiculous. So so they're we're gonna we're gonna keep you know, we keep stepping down. And I That that's the main, like Yeah. We're we're talking with clubs here. The main negative of wasabi is, well, if you don't have fucking $3,000,
1520
02:09:05.155 --> 02:09:07.414
you can't use it. It's not a spec of wallet.
1521
02:09:07.780 --> 02:09:14.200
It's not a Like, that's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous that the lowest threshold is is fucking 26
1522
02:09:15.275 --> 02:09:17.454
$100. Like, that's fucking insane.
1523
02:09:19.914 --> 02:09:23.135
And they just, like, they're that's cool. We're fine with that.
1524
02:09:24.900 --> 02:09:27.159
Who's using fucking you're, like, $400
1525
02:09:27.539 --> 02:09:29.880
underneath the travel rule or whatever the fuck.
1526
02:09:30.820 --> 02:09:32.519
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
1527
02:09:34.595 --> 02:09:38.855
Q and a, do you see this question here about Dojo and single board computers from Sam?
1528
02:09:39.475 --> 02:09:46.500
Where is this? I do. Yeah. Yeah. And I I was gonna be I was gonna be flipping and and reply with Read it out loud.
1529
02:09:48.640 --> 02:09:49.920
Hugo knows what I'm gonna say, but,
1530
02:09:50.719 --> 02:09:51.845
Danny Walbit's asked,
1531
02:09:52.805 --> 02:09:56.825
I've lost it now. No. It wasn't. No. No. Sam asked, I'm behind now.
1532
02:09:57.285 --> 02:10:03.730
But is it's the docker and single board computer aspects of Dojo that makes it tricky for non techies. Is that what you're saying?
1533
02:10:04.430 --> 02:10:09.010
Yeah. Yeah. So so there's 2 ways you can attack this. I mean, first and foremost,
1534
02:10:10.135 --> 02:10:14.474
installing Ronin Dojo fixes this. Zalco would kill me if I didn't say that.
1535
02:10:15.255 --> 02:10:20.429
But, yeah, there's 2 ways you can do it. You can go with the DIY route, which is is is obviously more technical.
1536
02:10:21.210 --> 02:10:24.429
You can install Ronin Dojo on on your own single board computer.
1537
02:10:25.530 --> 02:10:31.534
You know, if if that's out of your outside of your wheelhouse, go for a plug and play option. I mean, right this minute,
1538
02:10:32.074 --> 02:10:36.014
if you want a dojo, then the nodal is is the obvious option.
1539
02:10:36.430 --> 02:10:39.890
Their own in team have got one coming out very, very soon to keep you guys peeled for that.
1540
02:10:40.270 --> 02:10:52.385
But, you know, there are options there. Again, nuance and trade offs. If you want a plug and play option, you're gonna have to pay extra for it. You know, these teams need to make some money. They're gonna message, put the link on the screen there, and that'll dot it.
1541
02:10:53.700 --> 02:10:56.440
Ultimately, if you're not willing to good that I
1542
02:10:56.740 --> 02:10:57.720
am? Yep.
1543
02:10:58.420 --> 02:11:03.065
It's it's it's a trade off between do you wanna spend your time learning how to do this,
1544
02:11:03.925 --> 02:11:05.625
do it yourself with your own hardware,
1545
02:11:05.925 --> 02:11:11.740
you know, flashing the SD card, etcetera, etcetera. It's actually not that not as as difficult as most people,
1546
02:11:13.640 --> 02:11:15.100
would have you believe. However,
1547
02:11:15.555 --> 02:11:37.925
if if your time is too precious, you're gonna have to spend some more sats, and you're gonna have to go down the nodal route. I mean, the nodal's the the nodal's classy. Like, I own a nodal. I run a Ronin run a dojo. Like, you can save money around the run and dojo, but then the nodal's fucking sexy. Like, you get what you pay for. I mean, you you you you have a I mean, especially the dojo version. I mean, it's a Lamborghini.
1548
02:11:39.585 --> 02:11:42.405
Like, you just ordered a fucking Porsche to your door.
1549
02:11:43.710 --> 02:11:49.889
Daddy Walbits is asking how much does it cost. I don't know. How how much does it cost? I think it is it is it 7700
1550
02:11:51.045 --> 02:11:54.105
8 disclosure, I got a I got a discount on the Nalandojo
1551
02:11:54.804 --> 02:11:55.304
dojo,
1552
02:11:56.804 --> 02:12:02.960
but it's fucking fantastic. It's it's got a fucking raid. He's, like, he, like, hooks you up. He, like, sets you the fuck up.
1553
02:12:04.139 --> 02:12:08.000
He he's paranoid for you, so you don't have to be paranoid. It's fucking $850.
1554
02:12:09.545 --> 02:12:10.445
It's very nice.
1555
02:12:10.824 --> 02:12:13.405
I I I think I paid 6.50, full disclosure.
1556
02:12:14.505 --> 02:12:16.925
But I paid for it, which is an important part.
1557
02:12:18.640 --> 02:12:24.665
Like I say, it comes down to traders at the end of the day. If you're a baller like like yourself, Matt, and you you've got that sort of cash line amount,
1558
02:12:25.145 --> 02:12:26.205
not not all
1559
02:12:26.665 --> 02:12:31.565
not all is, you know, is absolutely great. Your issue Right. You wanna It's got the fucking samurai
1560
02:12:32.030 --> 02:12:38.930
fucking engraved in it. 49. There you go. 6102 just answered. Yeah. We know we know 6102. We know how much it is. Thank you.
1561
02:12:39.310 --> 02:12:43.074
It's good. It's it's a very nice device, though. But what's the Sats rate?
1562
02:12:43.454 --> 02:12:45.474
The Sats rate goes up every day.
1563
02:12:45.935 --> 02:12:49.235
There you go. Oh, no. And it goes down every day. Number go down.
1564
02:12:50.909 --> 02:12:53.809
Oh, Asparoo's like, I think you paid more. Fuck you, Asparoo.
1565
02:12:59.855 --> 02:13:06.355
But the nozzle's a great product. The nozzle's the only product that's that that that gives me both lightning and,
1566
02:13:06.815 --> 02:13:08.675
samurai shit at the same time.
1567
02:13:10.639 --> 02:13:15.380
I mean, you can you can use the my node, but you're gonna have issues. Like, ultimately,
1568
02:13:16.075 --> 02:13:22.895
if you're not running a novel, what you should do is you basically should run 2 devices. You should run a device that's Ronin Dojo that's just,
1569
02:13:24.210 --> 02:13:33.385
samurai focused, and then you should run a device that is lightning focused, if you want if you want your own lightning node. Like, if you if you're trying to do your own 247 lightning node.
1570
02:13:34.165 --> 02:13:39.465
So in that situation, you run a Nodl and you get both, and you have if you do the Nodl Dojo,
1571
02:13:40.310 --> 02:13:45.690
you you get in in fucking raid formation so your Hot Wallet isn't just, like, completely reckless,
1572
02:13:46.550 --> 02:13:47.530
and you're good.
1573
02:13:49.785 --> 02:13:57.645
Yeah. That's exactly what I do. I've got, RAS pipe lits and my lightning stuff. You know, the little amount that I do use it. And I've got me running dojo
1574
02:13:58.260 --> 02:13:58.660
for,
1575
02:13:59.220 --> 02:14:02.600
my always on mixer machine, which is, you know,
1576
02:14:02.900 --> 02:14:05.000
I love the Ronin guys. They're awesome.
1577
02:14:05.940 --> 02:14:07.640
Ergo, what about you? What do you run?
1578
02:14:08.405 --> 02:14:10.185
I'm a Ronin Dojo user.
1579
02:14:11.925 --> 02:14:14.985
I'm gonna I'm gonna I bought a nodal,
1580
02:14:15.650 --> 02:14:16.230
the nodal
1581
02:14:16.610 --> 02:14:17.110
OG,
1582
02:14:17.730 --> 02:14:19.190
thinking I needed lightning.
1583
02:14:19.570 --> 02:14:20.070
And,
1584
02:14:20.530 --> 02:14:27.495
you know, nothing against Askew who's in the chat and and Kito who have done a really good job with the, you know, the
1585
02:14:28.035 --> 02:14:44.365
the the the the samurai nodal, the dojo nodal. But I just kinda wanted something that was gonna keep me up to date, you know, right away, and I really kinda realized that I don't need lightning. And so that kinda led me to the, the Ronin Dojo route,
1586
02:14:45.065 --> 02:14:49.640
because those guys, they provide really good support, and you're always gonna have kind of the
1587
02:14:50.180 --> 02:14:51.240
the the newest,
1588
02:14:51.860 --> 02:15:05.155
version of of Dojo right away. And, you know, no questions asked. You've always got Zelco's, you know, number on tap in case you need support. I mean, it's like Prestiro. Best of all worlds. Yeah. Exactly. Prestiro for Zelco.
1589
02:15:05.970 --> 02:15:08.710
I hope he listens to this later and he gets a little bit pissed.
1590
02:15:10.450 --> 02:15:14.150
But that but that's what I run. I'm simple, you know, I'm I'm very lazy.
1591
02:15:15.005 --> 02:15:19.585
If is if you if you have to ask me what I'm doing, it's it's probably not much.
1592
02:15:20.205 --> 02:15:28.260
Well, I mean, I actually and so I've come full circle. Like, I think that I think the majority of people just need Spectre plus Bitcoin Core.
1593
02:15:30.560 --> 02:15:46.079
And and and so maybe I'm a simple pleb in that respect. But I mean, I I mean, I also think that that everyone should have their samurai stack. Right? But but I think that a lot of people can just have their uncle Jim stack where they just scan theirs their friend's samurai,
1594
02:15:47.260 --> 02:15:50.865
node. They can just they just they just scan their friend's dojo,
1595
02:15:51.725 --> 02:15:57.105
and then they have their own, you know, pruned core node for their hardware wallet or whatever.
1596
02:15:58.030 --> 02:16:03.570
Yeah. I mean, that's, like, a really good, you know, option for a lot of people. I I've already onboarded, like,
1597
02:16:04.030 --> 02:16:06.865
12 people, 13 people, where they're just all just,
1598
02:16:08.065 --> 02:16:10.085
like, they they're on my dojo.
1599
02:16:10.865 --> 02:16:24.160
It's good to go through the ritual too. It's like, okay. Scan this QR code, and now you're using my node to tell you the balance. You have to try best. And sometimes it's down, and they reach out to me. They're like, Matt Where am I calling? Get your shit together. Sort you a shit.
1600
02:16:24.995 --> 02:16:26.695
Why is my balance? Doing my shit today.
1601
02:16:29.555 --> 02:16:35.660
I like the QR code scan. The QR code scan is a good way of, I think, of of handling that connection.
1602
02:16:38.601 --> 02:16:42.460
Yeah. Massively underrated, in my opinion. I don't know why more implementations
1603
02:16:43.175 --> 02:16:43.654
don't,
1604
02:16:44.135 --> 02:16:50.040
do that. Obviously, you know, not a dev. Absolutely no idea what goes into creating that QR code to to
1605
02:16:50.920 --> 02:16:53.420
to make it you know, while it connect, but it it's,
1606
02:16:54.440 --> 02:16:58.795
you know, a fantastic feature for me. And and if anybody any of the devs are out listening
1607
02:16:59.354 --> 02:17:01.295
from the other implementations, please
1608
02:17:02.075 --> 02:17:08.495
consider adding that one. It just makes onboarding 10 times easier. Yeah. Every everyone should have the QR code thing.
1609
02:17:09.420 --> 02:17:17.601
It it it's a bit easier to say scan this QR code rather than, oh, just just let me send you this onion address from my Electrum server. It's such a better connection.
1610
02:17:18.135 --> 02:17:19.515
Make sure you get the right port,
1611
02:17:20.135 --> 02:17:25.435
and And Tor better be built in in default because, like, this is ridiculous that you have to do it separately.
1612
02:17:26.570 --> 02:17:30.431
So I think that's that's very important. I think we've come a long way in that respect.
1613
02:17:32.785 --> 02:17:36.885
Shout out to me. That's what I wanna talk about. So so we're 2 hours and 15 minutes in.
1614
02:17:37.985 --> 02:17:41.845
My my promise to you freaks that this is gonna be an hour is
1615
02:17:43.240 --> 02:17:43.720
just,
1616
02:17:44.120 --> 02:17:49.255
just really fucked you. So I apologize. I hope you ended at an hour and you're not listening now,
1617
02:17:50.135 --> 02:17:52.155
so that I didn't do this to you.
1618
02:17:52.854 --> 02:17:54.555
I wanna talk about BIP 47.
1619
02:17:55.415 --> 02:17:57.675
And BIP 47 is, I think,
1620
02:17:58.070 --> 02:18:01.370
probably the most important privacy improvement on Bitcoin,
1621
02:18:02.390 --> 02:18:02.890
and
1622
02:18:03.190 --> 02:18:06.505
I can't get anyone to talk about it. So I started a podcast,
1623
02:18:08.165 --> 02:18:17.270
called Citadel Dispatch. This is number 2. And I plan on talking about BIP 47 a lot until someone just fucking puts me in my place and is, like, we should not have bit 47.
1624
02:18:17.810 --> 02:18:18.310
So
1625
02:18:18.930 --> 02:18:22.149
why is this awesome, and why don't we see it in other wallets?
1626
02:18:24.595 --> 02:18:27.814
Q and a, go first. You have you have the name. You you
1627
02:18:28.194 --> 02:18:29.415
The name out of car.
1628
02:18:29.930 --> 02:18:33.229
I mean I mean, I I personally cannot see,
1629
02:18:34.250 --> 02:18:35.869
the negatives a bit 47.
1630
02:18:36.170 --> 02:18:38.670
It's it leaves me scratching my head every single day
1631
02:18:39.105 --> 02:18:41.925
why more wallets don't implement implement this.
1632
02:18:43.345 --> 02:18:44.465
Possibly the only,
1633
02:18:44.945 --> 02:18:49.610
downside I can see right now, which I believe is not actually part of the BIP, is that,
1634
02:18:50.811 --> 02:18:51.311
first,
1635
02:18:51.770 --> 02:18:52.270
for
1636
02:18:52.730 --> 02:18:56.910
to implement a a NIM into Samura wallet, you need to do a follow transaction,
1637
02:18:57.290 --> 02:19:06.465
which is a an on chain transaction, which obviously incurs fees and and costs a small amount of sats. Now I believe the devs are working on removing that, and it's not actually
1638
02:19:08.370 --> 02:19:09.570
integral to,
1639
02:19:10.450 --> 02:19:11.431
to bit 47.
1640
02:19:11.811 --> 02:19:23.085
So once that that sort of little hurdle has has disappeared, which I believe is, you know, is just over the horizon, I genuinely can't understand why more wallets don't implement bit 47.
1641
02:19:23.690 --> 02:19:24.091
You know?
1642
02:19:24.811 --> 02:19:26.990
I'm sure Ergo will put it far more eloquently
1643
02:19:27.370 --> 02:19:28.910
than myself in terms of,
1644
02:19:29.290 --> 02:19:31.710
the crux of bit 47 and what it is.
1645
02:19:32.905 --> 02:19:41.005
Well, I I don't know. I'll leave it open to the room, but I genuinely can't understand why people why more wallets don't don't implement this.
1646
02:19:44.650 --> 02:19:46.110
For the the listeners,
1647
02:19:47.690 --> 02:19:48.510
BIP 47
1648
02:19:48.891 --> 02:19:49.391
are,
1649
02:19:49.930 --> 02:19:51.870
is a a reusable payment
1650
02:19:52.654 --> 02:19:57.395
channel in quotes that, you know, basically is established between 2 users on chain.
1651
02:19:58.895 --> 02:20:02.811
I don't wanna say it's entirely like kinda lightning, but it's a little bit similar.
1652
02:20:03.351 --> 02:20:08.490
Anyway, once you've established that sort of notification transaction, it's it's very easy to
1653
02:20:08.976 --> 02:20:11.155
simply make payments to a
1654
02:20:11.695 --> 02:20:18.035
another PayNEM. Right? And Matt's got the the the the NIMs up on on the screen right now.
1655
02:20:19.220 --> 02:20:28.665
And all of this is basically managed by, you know, the the the the wallet. You know, you just instead of having to go, hey. I wanna pay Matt 50,000 sats.
1656
02:20:30.245 --> 02:20:34.905
You know, hey, Matt. Can you send me an address? I just say, you know, I've already made a
1657
02:20:35.285 --> 02:20:38.630
a a connection transaction to to Matt's paying him,
1658
02:20:39.170 --> 02:20:44.230
and it's as simple as that. I've already made the the connection transaction. I could just send him whatever I need to send him.
1659
02:20:45.010 --> 02:20:45.910
And this is,
1660
02:20:47.346 --> 02:21:04.024
extremely, extremely useful for, you know, just on chain privacy and privacy in general. I mean, you know, we talk about kind of no KYC and and keeping your coins separate from, you know, your identity, whatever identity that may be. Maybe that's your Twitter profile. You know, you post a static, you know, donation address.
1661
02:21:04.645 --> 02:21:07.784
Well, that's now associated with whatever NIM that you have.
1662
02:21:08.484 --> 02:21:11.864
And a way to kinda get around that is to use the the bit 47,
1663
02:21:12.939 --> 02:21:13.680
you know,
1664
02:21:14.300 --> 02:21:14.800
payments.
1665
02:21:16.620 --> 02:21:17.120
And,
1666
02:21:17.819 --> 02:21:18.880
you know, I know
1667
02:21:19.315 --> 02:21:23.415
I know that the samurai team has a a lot more planned around this.
1668
02:21:24.915 --> 02:21:27.495
I can't say much right now, but I know that there's
1669
02:21:27.820 --> 02:21:28.221
kind of,
1670
02:21:29.980 --> 02:21:31.760
the the the bit 47,
1671
02:21:33.181 --> 02:21:40.105
Panam unlocks a lot of options for people that I don't even think that we really realize. Like, you know, you can sort of use it as,
1672
02:21:40.965 --> 02:21:44.985
you know, instead of, like, I wanna pay Ergo. You know?
1673
02:21:45.659 --> 02:21:59.364
Ergo has his pay in him, and I've managed basically everything through that. You know? You could use it for, you know, sort of a Identity. Use identity. Right? You know, you you you can log into a website. You can sort of use it for encryption. You can use it for messaging. You can use it for, like,
1674
02:22:00.064 --> 02:22:07.000
quite a lot of of things that, you know It could be your NIM. Exactly. It can be sort of your real your real NIM.
1675
02:22:08.660 --> 02:22:09.640
You know, and
1676
02:22:09.945 --> 02:22:12.605
it's extremely useful for people who are making payments.
1677
02:22:13.545 --> 02:22:19.005
And for anybody who's not making payments, they're sort of like, you know, I don't really get it, or I don't see kind of the need.
1678
02:22:20.050 --> 02:22:26.150
But But but before you go on, like, let's let's just bring it back. Like, the issue here is the concern here is
1679
02:22:26.690 --> 02:22:27.410
you can't just
1680
02:22:28.475 --> 02:22:34.895
as a Bitcoiner, we can't just provide a Bitcoin address. If I provide you a Bitcoin address right now, freaks, you're all watching,
1681
02:22:35.274 --> 02:22:36.335
you wanna donate.
1682
02:22:36.811 --> 02:22:45.230
If you donate, not only will everyone see exactly how much was donated, they will see who donated it and where they donated it from. They can track all of you.
1683
02:22:46.285 --> 02:22:50.145
Right now, I have my my BIP 47 pay name on the screen.
1684
02:22:50.605 --> 02:23:00.690
I have my payment code on the screen. If you if you scan that payment code, you can pay me to a unique address that is generated between the 2 of us
1685
02:23:01.070 --> 02:23:02.610
because you scanned the code.
1686
02:23:03.755 --> 02:23:10.815
And it if if Ergo scanned it or Bitcoin QA scanned it or any of the other freaks scanned it, they would get a different address.
1687
02:23:11.880 --> 02:23:14.700
That's a game changer. That is that is massive.
1688
02:23:15.320 --> 02:23:24.885
Like, people shouldn't have to have fucking BTC pay server to to to to get tips in a private way. They should be able to just post something
1689
02:23:25.905 --> 02:23:29.925
and have people use that something, that's a fix something,
1690
02:23:30.641 --> 02:23:32.740
to generate things to pay them.
1691
02:23:34.000 --> 02:23:39.755
And and BIP 47 allows you to do that, and I don't understand why Samura Wallet's the only one that has it.
1692
02:23:42.635 --> 02:23:46.895
I think I saw a comment from 6102 go by called called before.
1693
02:23:48.689 --> 02:23:50.390
I think that the bid process
1694
02:23:50.850 --> 02:23:55.670
you know, again, I'm not a developer and somebody will shout at me in the comments and tell me how I'm wrong.
1695
02:23:56.745 --> 02:23:59.565
But the process has become sort of a religious
1696
02:24:01.225 --> 02:24:01.725
experience.
1697
02:24:02.265 --> 02:24:08.229
You know, you have to pay tribute, And once you've paid tribute, then you get your thing integrated into Bitcoin.
1698
02:24:09.569 --> 02:24:28.230
And I I if, you know, my interpretation or my understanding of the history of bit 47 was that it was introduced by someone that, you know, didn't quite pay tribute and therefore, you know, we don't have it. You You know? And the excuse was some minor technical things, something like, well, the notification transaction is spam or something along those lines.
1699
02:24:28.930 --> 02:24:40.165
And I mean, looking back now at at, you know, even though we've had some fee events, how relatively low fees kinda still are, you know, it just boggles the mind as to why not a real thing.
1700
02:24:41.170 --> 02:24:42.870
And it is a bit unexplainable.
1701
02:24:43.971 --> 02:24:46.070
You know, it just it's a shame.
1702
02:24:48.136 --> 02:24:50.315
Mark, did I hear that,
1703
02:24:52.375 --> 02:24:55.835
what's the Hexa Wallet, are they implementing bit 47?
1704
02:24:56.500 --> 02:24:57.000
Yes.
1705
02:24:58.260 --> 02:24:59.080
But, I mean,
1706
02:24:59.859 --> 02:25:00.359
look,
1707
02:25:01.779 --> 02:25:02.680
there are
1708
02:25:03.596 --> 02:25:08.976
projects that ask my advice, and those projects implement the things I want them to implement.
1709
02:25:10.530 --> 02:25:13.190
So I'm trying to make PIP 47 the thing.
1710
02:25:14.530 --> 02:25:24.535
I I I hope if you're listening right now and we don't have a formal relationship, you might reach out and be, like, let's fucking make this happen, you know, and I'll I'll help you make it happen.
1711
02:25:26.420 --> 02:25:28.840
I mean, because a bib 47 is not helpful
1712
02:25:29.780 --> 02:25:31.880
unless we have people implement it.
1713
02:25:32.260 --> 02:25:33.000
I have
1714
02:25:35.365 --> 02:25:37.225
my BIP 47 Pay NIM
1715
02:25:37.845 --> 02:25:38.904
publicly available,
1716
02:25:40.005 --> 02:25:40.984
but, like, honestly,
1717
02:25:41.765 --> 02:25:45.360
like, as much shit as my beloved samurai
1718
02:25:46.140 --> 02:25:55.015
wallet users want to give me for stacking sats, they're all stacking. They don't want to contribute, and that's fine. I'm complete I'm completely cool with that.
1719
02:25:55.955 --> 02:25:57.415
I don't get much contribute
1720
02:25:57.851 --> 02:26:06.435
contributions through that fucking portal, and that's fine. But the thing is is it's only the those wallet users. It's only, like, you have to be specifically
1721
02:26:07.055 --> 02:26:08.435
Android and then
1722
02:26:08.895 --> 02:26:09.395
Samrod.
1723
02:26:09.935 --> 02:26:10.435
Right?
1724
02:26:11.535 --> 02:26:13.135
Like, no one's gonna accept
1725
02:26:13.610 --> 02:26:18.511
no one's gonna do any kind of major fundraiser, and they can only accept from that subset.
1726
02:26:18.891 --> 02:26:22.190
It it's only powerful if we get a lot of people to use it.
1727
02:26:22.745 --> 02:26:27.564
And and you only really get any kind of reasonable privacy unless we get a lot of people to use it. So,
1728
02:26:28.825 --> 02:26:30.685
I'm trying to make that like a
1729
02:26:31.221 --> 02:26:32.760
a thing I'm pushing for.
1730
02:26:34.900 --> 02:26:43.175
So hue Huey in the chat mentions about one of the criticisms of bit 47 is that it wastes too much space. I presume he means block space. I'll pay the fee, man.
1731
02:26:43.955 --> 02:26:44.455
Yeah.
1732
02:26:44.915 --> 02:26:46.375
The fees where are the fees?
1733
02:26:47.650 --> 02:26:48.870
They're not that expensive.
1734
02:26:51.090 --> 02:27:00.215
I was told they're gonna be way more expensive at this point. Well, q and a, how many do you I mean, do you stack tips? I mean, you've got, like, a 100 paid in followers.
1735
02:27:00.675 --> 02:27:02.615
Mhmm. You know? Do you really have a 100?
1736
02:27:03.230 --> 02:27:07.410
That's impressive, dude. You're probably the biggest PayNIM follower person ever.
1737
02:27:08.270 --> 02:27:20.495
I mean, you don't have to tell us, but they'll hold details. But I I mean, if anybody's gonna have a good experience, it's Thank you, Ergo. Yeah. Do do you know how many pain in tips I've had since that Twitter thread where I gained all this,
1738
02:27:21.055 --> 02:27:22.035
things, all this?
1739
02:27:22.495 --> 02:27:27.140
2. Yeah. Exactly. Because they're all stacking, man, and and I don't blame them.
1740
02:27:29.760 --> 02:27:40.944
I think we can fix that. We'll find a way to fix that. But No. If you're already if you're already following him on fucking paying him, like, fucking pay this guy. Give him a give him buy him buy him a drink.
1741
02:27:42.160 --> 02:27:44.899
Forget about drinks for me. Buy buy him a drink.
1742
02:27:46.720 --> 02:27:55.016
I'm I'm I I you know, all the hate all the hate, I'll I'll tell you, way more on lightning than anything else. People love lightning.
1743
02:27:57.020 --> 02:27:58.561
Yeah. I almost got banned before.
1744
02:28:00.460 --> 02:28:03.520
Yeah. They really like lightning. They'll they'll they'll pay you on lightning.
1745
02:28:06.165 --> 02:28:06.905
But PayNim's
1746
02:28:07.365 --> 02:28:12.825
we we need we need we need multiple wallet support. We need at least, like, one good,
1747
02:28:14.660 --> 02:28:16.600
iPhone wallet to support it.
1748
02:28:17.620 --> 02:28:20.600
If we have if we have one good iPhone wallet to support it,
1749
02:28:20.925 --> 02:28:25.345
people have used it. I I I think I think Bitcoin as a donation medium
1750
02:28:26.444 --> 02:28:29.840
is, like, a very easy use case. Like, people want,
1751
02:28:30.620 --> 02:28:35.825
and when we see people in the developed world that they can't pay for their health care and shit, which is sad as fuck, but,
1752
02:28:36.145 --> 02:28:40.485
like, they need an easy way to just accept donations and not have to deal with KYC.
1753
02:28:42.385 --> 02:28:44.085
And we don't have that for them.
1754
02:28:44.400 --> 02:28:51.300
And I I would go to the Monero stands. I mean, I the the easiest way to privately accept Bitcoin is to just accept as Monero
1755
02:28:52.105 --> 02:28:52.605
and
1756
02:28:53.465 --> 02:28:59.630
and then cross transfer it in. Like, you post a Monero address, you don't have to deal with that shit. You're gonna get chastened
1757
02:29:02.270 --> 02:29:10.025
for that. You're gonna get canceled now. Yeah. Well, I'm live. So, I mean, I can't edit that out. So here we are, freaks. Oh, they If if 2 hours to hear that part.
1758
02:29:10.485 --> 02:29:15.226
Freaks, keep in mind that if if you're in the chat right now and you don't give me shit in the chat room,
1759
02:29:15.846 --> 02:29:16.985
you're you're complicit.
1760
02:29:21.120 --> 02:29:24.500
Yeah. But, I mean, it's true and it's fine. It's it is what it is.
1761
02:29:25.135 --> 02:29:29.795
Let's get Jack to add pain in him to strike. Yes. 100%. Fucking pressure him to do it.
1762
02:29:30.255 --> 02:29:31.154
Make it happen.
1763
02:29:36.950 --> 02:29:39.370
So we've been 2 and a half hours in.
1764
02:29:39.845 --> 02:29:43.225
It seems the freaks have no more questions for us of value,
1765
02:29:44.484 --> 02:29:45.944
and I love you all.
1766
02:29:46.324 --> 02:29:54.210
I appreciate ergo. Fuck Monero up, You know? There we go. It will probably trend to 0. I'm not saying it won't trend to 0, but I'm,
1767
02:29:55.250 --> 02:30:01.575
just mentioning that the easiest way to accept Bitcoin privately is is with the Monero address. That's all I'm saying.
1768
02:30:03.555 --> 02:30:04.055
And,
1769
02:30:05.475 --> 02:30:08.370
no. I just appreciate you guys. Thank you for joining us for
1770
02:30:09.180 --> 02:30:09.680
episode
1771
02:30:10.488 --> 02:30:10.988
2
1772
02:30:11.797 --> 02:30:12.297
of
1773
02:30:13.106 --> 02:30:13.606
Sidwell
1774
02:30:14.416 --> 02:30:14.916
Dispatch.
1775
02:30:15.805 --> 02:30:19.345
I keep reading the comments, so it's gonna fuck with me.
1776
02:30:20.364 --> 02:30:20.864
But
1777
02:30:21.484 --> 02:30:28.050
I I appreciate you guys joining us. I appreciate all the work you've done towards Bitcoin. I appreciate all the freaks that have joined us.
1778
02:30:28.510 --> 02:30:33.535
And next week, I have a very good fucking pair joining us.
1779
02:30:34.575 --> 02:30:44.950
Slightly worse than this pair, but it is gonna be it's gonna be a good one. I think you guys are gonna enjoy it. So definitely stay tuned and and and join for that. Thank you, Ergo. Thank you, Bitcoin q and a.
1780
02:30:45.410 --> 02:30:45.910
And,
1781
02:30:46.850 --> 02:30:52.230
you know, I I just I look forward to just, like, dunking on the all the Bitcoin deniers with you guys.
1782
02:30:53.795 --> 02:30:56.375
Well, thanks for having us, Matt. I really enjoyed this one.
1783
02:30:57.795 --> 02:31:01.335
Yeah. Absolute pleasure. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Matt. It's really fun.
1784
02:31:22.750 --> 02:31:24.290
Fly me to the moon.
1785
02:31:25.705 --> 02:31:28.765
Let me play up there with those stars.
1786
02:31:30.345 --> 02:31:33.325
Let me see what life is like
1787
02:31:33.705 --> 02:31:34.205
on
1788
02:31:35.130 --> 02:31:35.630
Jupiter
1789
02:31:35.931 --> 02:31:36.830
and Mars.
1790
02:31:38.010 --> 02:31:38.990
In other words,
1791
02:31:40.650 --> 02:31:41.150
hold
1792
02:31:42.250 --> 02:31:42.750
my
1793
02:31:46.085 --> 02:31:47.064
In other words,
1794
02:31:49.125 --> 02:31:49.625
darling,
1795
02:31:50.200 --> 02:31:50.700
kiss
1796
02:31:52.721 --> 02:31:53.221
me.
1797
02:31:55.240 --> 02:31:58.620
Fill my heart with song. Let me swing
1798
02:31:59.080 --> 02:32:00.145
for forevermore.
1799
02:32:02.125 --> 02:32:06.306
You are all I long for. All I wish
1800
02:32:07.245 --> 02:32:08.065
and adore.
1801
02:32:09.680 --> 02:32:10.580
In other words,
1802
02:32:12.400 --> 02:32:12.900
please
1803
02:32:13.920 --> 02:32:14.900
be true.
1804
02:33:35.725 --> 02:33:36.785
Love you.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:35:05 PM
Duration: 9227.311
Channels: 1
1
00:00:48.215 --> 00:00:50.955
2
00:00:51.335 --> 00:01:03.405
Today, cash is disappearing, whether it's in the United Kingdom or the United States or Sweden or South Korea, a smaller and smaller amount of our daily transactions are done with cash. We have to think about the implications
3
00:01:03.864 --> 00:01:05.165
of a cashless society
4
00:01:05.625 --> 00:01:07.325
where all money is digitally
5
00:01:07.625 --> 00:01:08.125
centralized.
6
00:01:08.585 --> 00:01:12.500
We have to think about what happens when we lose the financial privacy
7
00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:18.820
afforded to us by paper money. We have to think about the new powers that states and corporations
8
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.075
gain as we trade our privacy and freedom for comfort and convenience
9
00:01:23.534 --> 00:01:28.115
because what you buy and sell says more about you than your words.
10
00:01:28.415 --> 00:01:28.915
Consider,
11
00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:37.430
when you make a transaction with a paper bill, the merchant doesn't know your name, your email address, your phone number, or really anything about you. By contrast,
12
00:01:37.765 --> 00:01:38.825
when you make a transaction
13
00:01:39.365 --> 00:01:40.825
with a phone or a wearable
14
00:01:41.125 --> 00:01:46.345
or a swipe or one day a chip, you reveal an enormous amount of information about yourself,
15
00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.260
which leads to control by corporations
16
00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:50.220
and governments
17
00:01:50.520 --> 00:01:51.260
and censorship
18
00:01:51.800 --> 00:01:52.460
and surveillance
19
00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.100
and gradually social engineering.
20
00:01:55.545 --> 00:02:02.604
This is why Bitcoin is so revolutionary because it lays the groundwork for a peer to peer electronic cash system, where unlike
21
00:02:02.905 --> 00:02:04.444
today's legacy arrangement
22
00:02:04.744 --> 00:02:11.310
where there's banks and software companies and payment processors in the middle of every single digital transaction that happens,
23
00:02:11.610 --> 00:02:12.110
instead,
24
00:02:12.410 --> 00:02:19.055
nobody's in the middle of you and the person you are paying. Their payment processing is done instead by a global competition.
25
00:02:19.675 --> 00:02:28.810
And this is why in a world and in a future where we will have state money, we will have corporate money, Bitcoin is more like the people's money. It is a way out. It is an alternative.
26
00:02:29.670 --> 00:02:38.465
Now less than 1% of us have used Bitcoin, perhaps 50 or 60,000,000 out of the 7 and a half 1000000000 on this earth. But if we keep growing this and if Bitcoin thrives,
27
00:02:38.845 --> 00:02:45.040
humans will have a money that can't be censored by authorities, that can't be devalued by governments, that can't be monopolized by corporations,
28
00:02:45.420 --> 00:02:53.585
that can't be easily mass surveilled, that can't be stopped by borders, and that can be accessed by anyone. And that's why Bitcoin matters for human rights.
29
00:02:55.645 --> 00:02:56.705
30
00:02:57.500 --> 00:03:00.640
This is Matt O'Dell, and you're listening to Citadel Dispatch.
31
00:03:01.260 --> 00:03:02.959
This is episode number 2.
32
00:03:04.459 --> 00:03:04.959
Welcome,
33
00:03:05.944 --> 00:03:13.004
my my my two good friends that I have joining us this week, Ergo and Bitcoin q and a. What's up, guys?
34
00:03:13.900 --> 00:03:16.400
35
00:03:17.019 --> 00:03:18.879
36
00:03:19.739 --> 00:03:20.560
on audio.
37
00:03:21.435 --> 00:03:23.855
It it's it's hard to follow for people
38
00:03:24.155 --> 00:03:25.454
to know who is who.
39
00:03:25.834 --> 00:03:27.775
So, Ergo, you first,
40
00:03:28.155 --> 00:03:31.870
you know, give a little introduction to yourself so people can recognize your voice.
41
00:03:32.970 --> 00:03:33.470
42
00:03:33.849 --> 00:03:35.230
So I'm probably,
43
00:03:36.305 --> 00:03:39.045
you know, kinda like a lot of the plebs. I'm not a developer.
44
00:03:40.145 --> 00:03:41.685
I'm just kind of a guy
45
00:03:42.225 --> 00:03:44.725
that sort of started doing his own research,
46
00:03:45.105 --> 00:03:46.810
back when that was cool and acceptable.
47
00:03:48.630 --> 00:03:51.690
You know, and I was kinda comparing some of the CoinJoin protocols.
48
00:03:52.630 --> 00:03:54.090
I guess it would have been,
49
00:03:54.465 --> 00:03:55.905
you know, mid last year.
50
00:03:56.785 --> 00:04:00.325
And in the process, I stumbled on a multibillion dollar Ponzi scheme.
51
00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:03.980
And from there, things kinda just took off.
52
00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:09.695
Since then, I've this is basically finishing my 1st year with, the OXT research team,
53
00:04:10.415 --> 00:04:12.355
that's headed by Laurent MT,
54
00:04:13.135 --> 00:04:13.875
from oxt.me,
55
00:04:14.415 --> 00:04:15.775
which is, you know,
56
00:04:16.175 --> 00:04:17.235
basically a free,
57
00:04:19.630 --> 00:04:23.970
block explorer that has a lot of the tools that most of the chain surveillance companies have.
58
00:04:24.830 --> 00:04:30.035
And so, you know, we kinda just take a look at, basically anything interesting that's happening on chain,
59
00:04:30.815 --> 00:04:34.355
and and see if there's anything that we can't learn and and can't, you know, use to improve,
60
00:04:35.330 --> 00:04:39.110
you know, make things better for everybody else. So that's, that's kinda it.
61
00:04:39.970 --> 00:04:41.430
62
00:04:41.810 --> 00:04:47.995
we I'm showing OXT Research's most late their latest report on the on the screen right now.
63
00:04:48.855 --> 00:04:51.435
And then we have Bitcoin q and a.
64
00:04:51.735 --> 00:04:52.795
What's up, dude?
65
00:04:53.900 --> 00:04:56.400
66
00:04:57.340 --> 00:04:58.640
Class of 2018,
67
00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:00.800
much like Ergo,
68
00:05:01.100 --> 00:05:03.485
not a a developer or anything of the sorts.
69
00:05:05.405 --> 00:05:08.145
Kinda just got bitten like most of us do.
70
00:05:09.564 --> 00:05:13.509
Quite badly fell head over heels with Bitcoin and and what it what promise
71
00:05:13.810 --> 00:05:15.350
it it sort of presents for the world.
72
00:05:16.370 --> 00:05:20.550
More so this year, really sort of fallen down the privacy rabbit hole.
73
00:05:21.205 --> 00:05:29.210
Been mixing with, a lot with a lot of the samurai guys who've who've shown me no end of love and and and taught me taught me their their wicked ways.
74
00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:30.990
So yeah,
75
00:05:31.690 --> 00:05:34.810
just trying to just got a passion for learning about Bitcoin really.
76
00:05:35.130 --> 00:05:38.535
And you know, the observant among us will see,
77
00:05:38.935 --> 00:05:40.074
that I've I try
78
00:05:40.455 --> 00:05:44.634
and pay that forward and and put out some resources that help people understand
79
00:05:45.175 --> 00:05:47.354
some of the topics a little bit better.
80
00:05:48.650 --> 00:05:54.190
81
00:05:55.685 --> 00:06:00.745
I'm trying to get more comfortable with it, especially since it's live, and we have no edits.
82
00:06:01.605 --> 00:06:02.105
So,
83
00:06:03.130 --> 00:06:06.430
you know, the the cheat code here is Bitcoin q and a is the Brit,
84
00:06:06.890 --> 00:06:08.590
and Ergo is not the Brit.
85
00:06:09.370 --> 00:06:10.350
And I'm Matt.
86
00:06:11.055 --> 00:06:14.275
So the the really cool thing about Bitcoin q and a, I mean
87
00:06:14.655 --> 00:06:18.275
and and to both of you guys, like, because I feel like you kinda came out of nowhere.
88
00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:24.020
You, like, hit my radar because I'm so focused on on privacy in the Bitcoin world,
89
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:25.860
on Twitter
90
00:06:26.485 --> 00:06:32.264
and in Telegram. And you guy you guys kinda just, like, blasted onto the scene, and you just kept producing.
91
00:06:34.169 --> 00:06:36.510
You know, right now, if if you're watching the livestream,
92
00:06:37.449 --> 00:06:38.350
I have bitcoiner.guideup,
93
00:06:39.930 --> 00:06:45.645
which is is Bitcoin q and a. Like, he's, first of all, a domain hodler just like I am and just
94
00:06:46.025 --> 00:06:46.525
constantly
95
00:06:46.825 --> 00:06:47.725
buys domains.
96
00:06:49.520 --> 00:06:51.620
He he went ham on the dot guides.
97
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:56.740
So he has a he has a bunch of dot guides. Cheap, by the way, for anybody listening.
98
00:06:57.425 --> 00:07:03.365
And Ergo just kept producing too. Like, he he Ergo is our resident chain surveillance
99
00:07:04.065 --> 00:07:04.565
person.
100
00:07:05.270 --> 00:07:09.930
So all of these chain surveillance guys, they go and they spy on all of your Bitcoin transactions,
101
00:07:12.435 --> 00:07:14.534
but they don't talk to you about their techniques.
102
00:07:15.235 --> 00:07:19.095
And and what Ergo does is he does that same that same move,
103
00:07:19.794 --> 00:07:20.775
but he actually
104
00:07:22.450 --> 00:07:25.510
explains what he did and how you can you can
105
00:07:25.890 --> 00:07:27.190
stop that in the future.
106
00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:34.695
So cheers to both of you guys. Thank you for joining me. I'm very grateful to have you for the second ever episode,
107
00:07:35.075 --> 00:07:41.550
and big cheers to all the freaks who are joining us. I'd like to think that Citadel Dispatch is a show that's hosted by the freaks,
108
00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:43.150
and I'm just the moderator.
109
00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:48.750
So to all the freaks out there in the chat right now, I'd like to know what you're drinking.
110
00:07:49.935 --> 00:07:50.435
And,
111
00:07:50.815 --> 00:08:00.330
you know, ergo, Bitcoin q and a, are you drinking with us right now, or what's up there? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm on a Beavottown Neck Oil, which is a,
112
00:08:00.830 --> 00:08:01.330
113
00:08:01.870 --> 00:08:15.520
unsure of its origin. I posted a picture on Twitter, and, just like to give 6102 a bit of a shout out because, after I posted that photo, he he he asked me to send him a a lightning invoice so that he could buy my next pack of beers. So cheers to you.
114
00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:25.345
115
00:08:25.725 --> 00:08:27.345
a school night, so nothing fancy.
116
00:08:28.925 --> 00:08:31.165
117
00:08:31.485 --> 00:08:33.585
for the Jameson as well.
118
00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:37.950
I know he loves that shit.
119
00:08:38.490 --> 00:08:39.470
So classy.
120
00:08:40.810 --> 00:08:41.630
Yeah. So
121
00:08:42.075 --> 00:08:45.135
the focus today is privacy. It's it's mostly privacy,
122
00:08:46.075 --> 00:08:54.100
and then we have the the the way I wanna do these shows is is my idea is is we have a a a general topic. In this case, it's privacy,
123
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:56.420
and then we have 2 subset topics.
124
00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:58.580
In this case, it's nodes
125
00:09:00.415 --> 00:09:02.515
and our favorite k y c.
126
00:09:03.535 --> 00:09:10.880
So I I I I think the first thing I wanna start with is is is is that preview video that I posted in the beginning,
127
00:09:11.660 --> 00:09:12.800
to start this episode.
128
00:09:13.260 --> 00:09:16.240
If you were listening, obviously, it was just audio.
129
00:09:17.315 --> 00:09:20.454
That was our boy, Alex Gladstein, explaining why
130
00:09:20.834 --> 00:09:21.154
it's
131
00:09:21.795 --> 00:09:29.680
why we do this shit, why it's important that we have private money, that we have money that we can spend without people knowing what we're spending it on,
132
00:09:30.620 --> 00:09:32.240
where your boss doesn't know
133
00:09:32.644 --> 00:09:34.345
what you're spending your daily
134
00:09:35.125 --> 00:09:41.144
transactions on and and and and where the bodega owner doesn't know how much you're making from your boss.
135
00:09:42.649 --> 00:09:46.509
And as cash gets eliminated, this is gonna become more and more important.
136
00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:48.190
So,
137
00:09:48.569 --> 00:09:54.065
I mean, I kinda I I don't really know exactly where I wanna start here, but I I I I I think
138
00:09:54.445 --> 00:09:55.905
I wanna hear why
139
00:09:56.525 --> 00:09:57.505
why do we
140
00:09:58.445 --> 00:10:00.305
why is our focus on Bitcoin?
141
00:10:00.640 --> 00:10:13.135
Why is our focus on Bitcoin privacy? Like, why out of all the things in Bitcoin, why is privacy the thing that you guys have both kind of bidding on to and and decided, like, this is something that you you wanna dedicate yourselves to?
142
00:10:13.595 --> 00:10:16.015
And I I I think we'll start with Ergo here.
143
00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.220
144
00:10:21.880 --> 00:10:25.340
you you kinda hit the nail on the head with the the Gladstein video intro.
145
00:10:26.075 --> 00:10:28.575
You know, he kinda does just a great job
146
00:10:29.195 --> 00:10:31.935
of explaining the current state of affairs.
147
00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:35.980
I mean, I'm kinda like probably a lot of people. You sort of
148
00:10:36.680 --> 00:10:38.460
fall into kind of the libertarian,
149
00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:44.525
you know, kinda gold bug kind of stuff. You know, I mean, at least I have years ago. That's I went through that kinda phase.
150
00:10:45.225 --> 00:10:50.845
And you sort of come out, you know, the other side and you're like, man, shit is pretty fucked up.
151
00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.940
And then you kind of get into, well, you know, what do we do about it? What do I do about it? What can I personally
152
00:10:57.400 --> 00:11:02.395
kind of do to make, you know, my situation better and, you know, know, hopefully improve somebody else's?
153
00:11:03.415 --> 00:11:07.435
And that's sort of where kinda Bitcoin comes in, which, you know, for the
154
00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:12.230
the, the white paper purist, the peer to peer electronic cash.
155
00:11:13.650 --> 00:11:15.030
And, you know,
156
00:11:15.755 --> 00:11:17.295
Bitcoin is pseudonymous.
157
00:11:17.915 --> 00:11:23.135
It's not anonymous even though that was kind of a meme at the beginning of of kind of Bitcoin's history.
158
00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:26.490
And as sort of, you know, the industry
159
00:11:26.950 --> 00:11:30.970
and the, basically, the money involved has has grown up around Bitcoin,
160
00:11:32.065 --> 00:11:34.885
The anonymous meme basically went out the window.
161
00:11:35.505 --> 00:11:38.725
I mean, between the chain surveillance firms, the KYC exchanges,
162
00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.180
It's not, you know, it's not quite that easy
163
00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:45.180
to to to use Bitcoin
164
00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:48.300
relatively privately anymore. That doesn't mean it can't be done,
165
00:11:49.225 --> 00:11:57.500
but it's it's it's certainly getting better and at least better much better than it was when I first started paying attention, I don't know, several years ago.
166
00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.540
So that's sort of why I'm why I'm here.
167
00:12:02.920 --> 00:12:03.720
168
00:12:04.805 --> 00:12:08.265
like Hugo said, you know, the the Gladstein video at the start nails it.
169
00:12:08.885 --> 00:12:11.065
Just so people understand where I'm coming from.
170
00:12:11.605 --> 00:12:13.385
Obviously, live in a western country.
171
00:12:14.420 --> 00:12:15.080
You know,
172
00:12:16.260 --> 00:12:20.200
the government isn't that, until perhaps 2020, isn't that overbearing,
173
00:12:21.195 --> 00:12:31.700
and a and a dying need for for private cash right here and now probably isn't the top of the, priority list for most of the people in the UK or or indeed in the Western
174
00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.660
civilization. But, you know, the there's there's been some examples this year
175
00:12:38.065 --> 00:12:39.205
where private cash,
176
00:12:40.145 --> 00:12:41.445
you know, namely Bitcoin,
177
00:12:42.625 --> 00:12:46.110
has been used in in countries like Belarus where the protests are.
178
00:12:46.670 --> 00:12:49.730
People have been using that to circumvent government restrictions.
179
00:12:50.910 --> 00:12:54.915
And and like I said, you know, it's not the easiest way thing to do privately,
180
00:12:55.455 --> 00:12:56.834
without fucking it up.
181
00:12:57.295 --> 00:12:57.774
But,
182
00:12:59.375 --> 00:13:01.075
I think, you know, the the purpose
183
00:13:01.455 --> 00:13:05.060
aside from it being probably the best money that we've ever had,
184
00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:08.680
is that our ability to to
185
00:13:09.540 --> 00:13:10.520
transact privately,
186
00:13:10.964 --> 00:13:13.785
and to circumvent government controls or restrictions,
187
00:13:15.524 --> 00:13:17.625
seems all too prevalent in 2020,
188
00:13:18.079 --> 00:13:20.160
particularly in in certain parts of the world.
189
00:13:20.800 --> 00:13:22.880
And I think we have to fight for that.
190
00:13:23.680 --> 00:13:27.905
And I I don't think well, I think 2020 is a is a perfect example of
191
00:13:28.545 --> 00:13:31.685
governments flexing their right to to oppress people,
192
00:13:32.065 --> 00:13:32.545
be it,
193
00:13:34.625 --> 00:13:36.110
be it COVID restrictions.
194
00:13:36.410 --> 00:13:41.230
You know, that that could be the tip of the iceberg. And I think, if people take their eye off the ball for too long,
195
00:13:41.690 --> 00:13:45.345
like you said, Mark, cash can quickly very quickly be eroded.
196
00:13:46.045 --> 00:13:48.625
And then what are we left with? You know, we're left with
197
00:13:49.404 --> 00:13:51.665
the thought of central bank. This is currency.
198
00:13:52.045 --> 00:13:52.545
Right?
199
00:13:53.110 --> 00:13:56.170
Yeah. Exactly. Because it's it's only about time before it disappears.
200
00:13:56.630 --> 00:14:12.449
201
00:14:13.790 --> 00:14:18.449
you know, all kinds of new reporting stuff that you have to do if you wanna deposit to the bank, you know,
202
00:14:18.975 --> 00:14:23.475
structuring laws, all kinds of crazy stuff that that didn't exist, you know,
203
00:14:23.935 --> 00:14:28.675
I don't know, a decade ago, 2 decades ago. You know, nobody really paid attention to that because it didn't matter,
204
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:39.275
and it wasn't affecting people's day to day lives. Now you go to the bank and you tell them you wanna take your money out, and they look at you like you're crazy. What do you mean you want, you know, several $1,000 in cash? They think you're nuts. It sounds pretty suspicious.
205
00:14:39.655 --> 00:14:40.475
Yeah. Yeah.
206
00:14:41.335 --> 00:14:42.955
And, you know, it's a shame because,
207
00:14:43.370 --> 00:14:49.150
I mean, at the end of the day, you know, money is kind of, a form of free speech. You know, who you get to voluntarily
208
00:14:49.530 --> 00:14:50.430
interact with,
209
00:14:51.115 --> 00:14:54.175
says a lot about, you know, kinda who you are as a person and
210
00:14:54.555 --> 00:14:55.055
and,
211
00:14:55.995 --> 00:15:01.110
you know, the the the, you know, the financial independence that you can have for you and and, you know, your family.
212
00:15:05.385 --> 00:15:07.885
213
00:15:10.105 --> 00:15:14.365
is I mean, I I don't wanna speak for you guys, but the way I view it
214
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.420
is we're being fucked on a 1000000 different
215
00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:26.345
angles. Like, a a million a 1000000 different directions, we're getting fucked privacy wise.
216
00:15:28.485 --> 00:15:38.140
And and Bitcoin is, like, a a reasonable way that we can start taking back taking it back in in, like, an actionable way. Right? Like, taking it back,
217
00:15:38.595 --> 00:15:41.255
taking back some control over our future
218
00:15:41.635 --> 00:15:43.334
without relying on asking
219
00:15:44.435 --> 00:15:46.774
for permission or forgiveness or,
220
00:15:47.089 --> 00:15:49.350
like, please, sir, will you give us some privacy?
221
00:15:51.490 --> 00:15:51.990
And
222
00:15:52.529 --> 00:15:58.475
and and one thing that I really love about you guys, and and and I've been called a hypocrite about it in the past,
223
00:15:59.335 --> 00:16:02.475
because I'm a public facing figure, is that you're both nims.
224
00:16:03.810 --> 00:16:06.710
And I I I think that's a it's a very important aspect
225
00:16:07.490 --> 00:16:10.230
about this revolution is that people are able to
226
00:16:11.145 --> 00:16:12.045
express themselves
227
00:16:12.905 --> 00:16:16.045
and and and provide value and show work,
228
00:16:17.065 --> 00:16:19.645
and insights and influence this movement,
229
00:16:21.550 --> 00:16:26.050
without actually giving up their real names. Like, I I both of you guys are my boys.
230
00:16:26.830 --> 00:16:31.125
I confide in both of you, but I have no idea who you actually are
231
00:16:31.665 --> 00:16:34.805
in the real world. And I I think that's super powerful.
232
00:16:36.190 --> 00:16:37.570
I I'd I'd be curious,
233
00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:41.970
like, no holes barred,
234
00:16:43.070 --> 00:16:48.445
like, hit us with your nim, you you know, your NIM show. Like, why why should people,
235
00:16:50.345 --> 00:16:51.805
why should people use NIMS
236
00:16:52.170 --> 00:16:55.950
online? Why should Twitter make sure that people can use NIMS,
237
00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:08.804
that that does that everyone doesn't have to do this light k y c bullshit? You know, we see this k y c coming into Twitter itself. We have to do phone numbers and stuff like that because they're basically trying to get you to dock yourself.
238
00:17:09.590 --> 00:17:13.370
Why is this important? Why is it important that people can, you know,
239
00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:20.405
talk online and discuss online and broadcast online without giving up their their their true identities?
240
00:17:21.745 --> 00:17:26.164
241
00:17:27.309 --> 00:17:29.090
without fear of of repercussion.
242
00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:30.049
You know?
243
00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:41.255
You see videos coming out of places like Australia all the time where somebody spoken out against the government on Facebook, and then you can see people, you know, the police are knocking down doors
244
00:17:41.795 --> 00:17:48.230
and taking people away because they've they've spoken their mind against the government and, you know, it's just completely fucked.
245
00:17:48.610 --> 00:17:56.804
So having a NIM online allows you to to speak freely and to spread the message that you want to spread to the people that follow you,
246
00:17:58.645 --> 00:18:00.424
so that you can share information,
247
00:18:00.725 --> 00:18:01.544
share ideas
248
00:18:02.139 --> 00:18:06.320
that perhaps people don't like. But, you know, if you're behind the NIM,
249
00:18:07.580 --> 00:18:11.360
you know, you've you've got as long as you're careful, obviously, you've got pretty much
250
00:18:11.764 --> 00:18:13.705
no, recourse to that whatsoever.
251
00:18:15.284 --> 00:18:18.664
And I think that's that's obviously a powerful thing because
252
00:18:19.524 --> 00:18:21.220
without free speech, what have we got?
253
00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:23.159
Fuck all. We've got China.
254
00:18:25.700 --> 00:18:32.155
255
00:18:33.495 --> 00:18:36.395
But, you know, that really is kinda what it's about. Right?
256
00:18:37.909 --> 00:18:38.649
You know, I
257
00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:55.520
I I got suggested that I see 6102 is suggesting a book in the, in the comments. What is it? True True Name by Werner Werner Vinay, if if I can pronounce that correctly. He he intentionally picked a a a hard last name to pronounce because he got the pick of his name.
258
00:18:57.280 --> 00:18:59.120
And I I I've been reading,
259
00:18:59.760 --> 00:19:02.180
Conceived in Liberty, which is sort of Rothbard's
260
00:19:03.095 --> 00:19:05.355
historical take on the American Revolution.
261
00:19:06.615 --> 00:19:07.835
And, you know,
262
00:19:08.215 --> 00:19:12.610
when you when we kinda, like, had to read this stuff in high school or, you know, you're taking your mandatory,
263
00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:15.330
you know, history class,
264
00:19:16.110 --> 00:19:21.465
you kinda didn't get it. You know? And now that, you know, I've been, you know, around for
265
00:19:21.845 --> 00:19:22.905
a good bit longer,
266
00:19:23.205 --> 00:19:25.225
and the world is slowly going to shit,
267
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:26.860
you can kind of appreciate
268
00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:41.005
what the people were going through. And you kind of see sort of a back and forth where, like, okay, the British government pushes back against, the American people or the the the governors of the Virginia colony push back against the people. And there sort of is this, like, ratcheting effect where
269
00:19:41.385 --> 00:19:41.885
eventually
270
00:19:42.264 --> 00:19:43.725
there's, like, a breaking point.
271
00:19:46.010 --> 00:19:52.750
And, you know, it was probably, like, a good bit easier to sort of do that kind of stuff back then because you weren't just surveilled 247.
272
00:19:54.305 --> 00:20:00.885
You know? And now it's it's like as soon as you sort of take a misstep with with your identity online,
273
00:20:01.490 --> 00:20:09.185
you know, you can sort of get prosecuted by not even just sort of the government, but, you know, the, the social justice warrior lynch mob. It's it's just
274
00:20:09.585 --> 00:20:13.525
it's just like a total Orwellian dystopia, you know, that we've been seeing lately.
275
00:20:14.305 --> 00:20:21.830
So yeah. I mean, a NIM a NIM protects you. It protects the people that you care about. It allows you to sort of say what you want to say,
276
00:20:23.090 --> 00:20:27.655
you know, with with some level of privacy, at least against sort of like a majority of people. People.
277
00:20:28.195 --> 00:20:49.015
And that comes with some, you know, additional challenges. You have to kind of start from scratch. If you had a reputation, you don't have, like, a full name to sort of fall back on, you know, a name and a face to fall back on. You know? So, like, if you if you step out of line and you screw it up, then, you know, it's it's really hard to get that sort of trust back. So, you know, there's a little bit of, like, accountability for NIMs too,
278
00:20:49.875 --> 00:20:54.695
where, like, you know, if you fuck up, it's it's just hard to come back. You know? So,
279
00:20:55.550 --> 00:20:56.050
yeah.
280
00:20:57.550 --> 00:21:02.435
281
00:21:03.315 --> 00:21:07.175
We're not gonna consider him out, it's argue. It will it will be discussed,
282
00:21:08.115 --> 00:21:10.695
but I'm just trying to stay on topic right now.
283
00:21:11.850 --> 00:21:13.789
I we have this comment from Dreeman.
284
00:21:14.169 --> 00:21:22.045
I don't know if I pronounced your name right. That's the beauty of NIMS is is you can you can make a name that's hard to pronounce. My favorite task that we
285
00:21:22.425 --> 00:21:28.445
do of the Nodle team who just created a nim that's just, like, fucking impossible to pronounce just to fuck with people,
286
00:21:29.145 --> 00:21:30.205
especially podcasters.
287
00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:39.340
He's asking me the easier question is why self docs? No great answers if you're just a pleb participating in learning and not trying to monetize your presence.
288
00:21:40.664 --> 00:21:45.885
If my goal so I feel like this is directed at me. I'm the person in this conversation
289
00:21:46.265 --> 00:21:49.450
that has been just picking up on my comments.
290
00:21:51.350 --> 00:21:54.410
I'm I'm the person in this conversation that did a self docs.
291
00:21:57.055 --> 00:22:03.540
I mean, if if if if the expectation is that I did it to monetize my presence, I'm doing a very poor job at it.
292
00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:10.600
The Dan Helds of the world and the Poms of the world are monetizing themselves way better than I am. I've left a lot of stats on the table.
293
00:22:12.075 --> 00:22:13.455
I I think, unfortunately,
294
00:22:15.515 --> 00:22:17.135
the the the average person
295
00:22:18.395 --> 00:22:29.625
trusts and they shouldn't trust me, and I say don't trust me, but they trust a person that is is self doxed more than a NIM. And I think there's a place here in the in the in the Bitcoin world
296
00:22:30.165 --> 00:22:30.985
for people
297
00:22:31.445 --> 00:22:33.225
who are public individuals
298
00:22:34.085 --> 00:22:34.825
that help,
299
00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:46.605
you know, bring exposure to the NIMs. Right? And this is one of the reasons why I launched Citadel Dispatch. Right? And this is one of the reasons why we're having a conversation here with me and 2 NIMs that I respect,
300
00:22:47.305 --> 00:22:48.445
is because I think
301
00:22:49.225 --> 00:22:53.005
that, otherwise, we're just gonna end up in a world where we just have all the suits,
302
00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:55.950
and they're commanding the conversation because,
303
00:22:56.650 --> 00:22:58.350
they naturally get more
304
00:22:59.370 --> 00:23:14.060
influence, larger audience. You know, you end up you end up in the situation where and they don't talk about privacy. They just won't they will not discuss any of the important things because they're taboo topics. And I I I think it's really important that we have people that are publicly talking about these so called taboo topics.
305
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:21.245
And I I I respect the risk, and that's why I tell people that they shouldn't they shouldn't self dox themselves unless they
306
00:23:22.664 --> 00:23:32.310
think through it very carefully. And even then, you probably still shouldn't do it. Like, on some mornings, I wake up in the morning. I'm like, why the fuck should I be like, I shouldn't even talk to myself.
307
00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:36.870
And then other mornings, like, I'm I'm just telling people that they're pieces of shit,
308
00:23:37.385 --> 00:23:39.085
publicly on Twitter. So,
309
00:23:39.705 --> 00:23:43.085
I I I think that there is there there's room for both,
310
00:23:44.390 --> 00:23:52.010
but you should really question it. And people should realize that before I self doxed myself, I have had, like, a 1000000 nymphs, and I still have, like, 4 nymphs. So,
311
00:23:52.845 --> 00:23:56.945
it's it's it's important that you you cover yourself. And then the second thing is,
312
00:23:57.725 --> 00:24:03.780
I mean, what Ergo was saying about previous revolutions and stuff, I mean, the status quo used to be basically privacy.
313
00:24:04.800 --> 00:24:10.455
You know, you were hiding amongst the crowd, like, your non set was the colonial Americas or whatever the fuck.
314
00:24:11.495 --> 00:24:11.995
Nowadays,
315
00:24:12.375 --> 00:24:18.635
it's just the status quo is no privacy whatsoever. Everywhere you go, you just get fucking tracked. You get tracked everywhere.
316
00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:21.930
You're you're sharing too much information.
317
00:24:22.950 --> 00:24:28.890
You're connected to, like, 6 different social media platforms that are really surveillance, and you're just all over the fucking place.
318
00:24:29.645 --> 00:24:35.985
And I there's a middle ground here. There's a middle ground here where people respect privacy, and we don't have this
319
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:37.620
this oversharing
320
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.980
in in in a way that that that like, I think people just aren't aware of the trade offs, basically.
321
00:24:46.725 --> 00:24:52.105
322
00:24:52.539 --> 00:24:55.039
with a NIM on Twitter was far before,
323
00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.480
long before I went down the the privacy rabbit hole
324
00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:05.625
was just, you know, worrying about, you know, if if I do eventually end up with a significant stash of Bitcoin,
325
00:25:06.165 --> 00:25:09.880
and I'm I'm out there with my public name and and somebody's
326
00:25:10.419 --> 00:25:12.120
somehow tracked my name,
327
00:25:12.580 --> 00:25:14.360
finds out where I live, you know,
328
00:25:14.820 --> 00:25:34.350
that's paying a big fat target on my on my back. So that was the the main reason that I did it. The kind of the privacy thing afterwards was just a nice bonus after I'd realized that I played a bit of a blinder really. And and and so I was, you know, really glad that I'd sort of taken that step really. So for anybody listening out there, I think, you know, if you if you're thinking about,
329
00:25:34.730 --> 00:25:38.465
doing it and you wanna interact and stuff, a Nim is the way to go, 100%.
330
00:25:43.645 --> 00:25:51.080
331
00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:58.515
okay. So, I mean, I so I I I think, you know, one of the things about Bitcoin privacy
332
00:25:58.815 --> 00:26:04.835
that makes it so difficult is is that it is very much inter you know, connected to
333
00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:10.130
to all of our other privacy elements. Right? Privacy on the Internet. Privacy on the Internet is difficult.
334
00:26:10.590 --> 00:26:16.465
There you know, any anyone who tells you that you're gonna have perfect privacy while on the Internet is full of shit.
335
00:26:17.165 --> 00:26:21.265
Someone who tells you that it's easy to use Twitter in a way that doesn't dox yourself,
336
00:26:22.340 --> 00:26:24.760
is full of shit. It's very difficult process,
337
00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:31.465
with caveats all the time. Like, I I mean, I know 6102 is listening right now or, boy,
338
00:26:32.265 --> 00:26:43.620
there was a moment, like, 4 weeks ago where, like, all of a sudden, he deleted his telegram, and, like, he made a fuck up. Like, we all know he made a fuck up, but we don't know what the fuck up was. But he, like, made the fuck up, and he just, like, tried to just, like, nuke everything.
339
00:26:44.560 --> 00:26:51.745
You know? Like, you're going you're going to, like, emergency mode. So so in in in Bitcoin land, to be private
340
00:26:52.684 --> 00:27:03.010
also interacts with all this metadata. Right? And you have, like, a a 1000000 different pieces of metadata that's all pulling together to to basically create the situation of this is
341
00:27:03.375 --> 00:27:07.475
this is your Bitcoin transaction history. This is your interaction with Bitcoin.
342
00:27:07.855 --> 00:27:09.475
The danger is with Bitcoin,
343
00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:13.210
our transactions are on a ledger forever.
344
00:27:13.830 --> 00:27:16.010
Like, if we're proper Bitcoin bulls,
345
00:27:16.950 --> 00:27:18.250
like, this this
346
00:27:19.015 --> 00:27:19.515
information,
347
00:27:19.975 --> 00:27:21.355
our transaction history,
348
00:27:21.655 --> 00:27:25.835
we sent Bitcoin to to this this address from this address
349
00:27:26.380 --> 00:27:28.720
is is there literally forever.
350
00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:36.705
And if you mix that with the all the metadata that we're leaving everywhere else, all of a sudden you end up in a situation,
351
00:27:38.044 --> 00:27:40.145
where you have where you have,
352
00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:49.080
like, a a a real issue. I mean, you you you have an issue where where Bitcoin could be something Bitcoin can go 2 ways.
353
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:50.600
Right? It could go
354
00:27:50.904 --> 00:27:56.684
it can go and and it could go 2 ways at the same time for 2 different people in the same existence,
355
00:27:57.144 --> 00:28:02.320
where one person, it is their private money, and with other person, it's their surveillance coin.
356
00:28:03.340 --> 00:28:14.045
And and I think people don't realize this. Like, the the the beauty of Bitcoin is that it's voluntary in nature, but the the the the negative of Bitcoin privacy is that it's also voluntary in nature.
357
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:24.700
358
00:28:26.054 --> 00:28:27.274
a while back now,
359
00:28:28.054 --> 00:28:40.810
you know, I started from just really not understanding anything. You know? People would talk about how important privacy was and I didn't I didn't know what that really meant. Just, you know, privacy is good, you know, don't reuse addresses, and that was kinda like the end of it.
360
00:28:42.010 --> 00:28:47.705
You know, then I started diving into sort of the CoinJoin protocols and, you know, but in the process, I sort of picked up,
361
00:28:48.005 --> 00:28:48.585
you know,
362
00:28:49.045 --> 00:28:54.210
what it sort of means and what's really out there and what's really available kind of on chain.
363
00:28:54.990 --> 00:29:04.385
And I think, you know, people know, okay, you know, I I send Bitcoin to a pseudonymous address now. I think that that's that's pretty well sunk in.
364
00:29:05.725 --> 00:29:16.509
But what people, you know, sort of still struggle with is is, like, you know, if I wanted to send q and a, you know, a a $30 tip for making this very nice, you know, no KYC only guide,
365
00:29:17.635 --> 00:29:27.080
I would reveal, you know, some of my UTXOs to him you know, him. He might not know they're from me unless I sort of told him that, but he would know that somebody had sent him, you know,
366
00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:29.400
$30 worth of Bitcoin and,
367
00:29:29.860 --> 00:29:35.375
you know, he could sort of infer what their balance was if they were doing, you know, kind of these simple spends.
368
00:29:36.875 --> 00:29:37.775
You know, so
369
00:29:38.370 --> 00:29:54.265
so, you know, the the the on chain stuff is is really tough to kind of combat. That doesn't mean it can't be done. And I sort of started off about this a while ago, but it's gotten, you know, significantly better with some of the CoinJoin implementations that we have now. It's, you know, it's it's sort of usable for most people.
370
00:29:54.850 --> 00:30:03.670
But that doesn't mean that you still can't screw up, and there still aren't kind of a list, you know, a a handful of things that most people, you know, if you just don't do those things,
371
00:30:04.285 --> 00:30:08.945
you know, they're gonna be, like, way better off and you're not gonna have to, you know,
372
00:30:09.405 --> 00:30:23.350
stress the shit out of yourself about it. And, you know, I mean, Matt's got the no KYC up. And that's, you know, really kind of the, you know, the the start of it all is is, you know, don't let the state or someone really anyone know,
373
00:30:23.955 --> 00:30:25.255
you know, your purchase history.
374
00:30:25.795 --> 00:30:31.175
That's that's like it's not technically possible because somebody's always gonna know that they sent you coins, but, you know,
375
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:38.725
the the metadata that comes along with that, your driver's license, your passport photo, your whatever, you know, all of a sudden we wind up with a hack and now
376
00:30:39.205 --> 00:30:40.184
the ledger hack
377
00:30:40.565 --> 00:30:42.345
and and your your data's everywhere.
378
00:30:43.765 --> 00:30:44.664
You know, so
379
00:30:45.044 --> 00:30:49.310
I I think really, you know, no KYC is kinda where a lot of this stuff starts off.
380
00:30:51.290 --> 00:30:54.670
381
00:30:55.210 --> 00:31:04.735
try and do Bitcoin in a private way, like you just touched on this, there's there's quite a lot of pitfalls. Yes. There's absolutely, you know, a lot of tools out there that that can help,
382
00:31:06.590 --> 00:31:11.890
help you regain some privacy when you're on chain, you know, or some of the the CoinJoin implementation,
383
00:31:12.909 --> 00:31:13.409
Whirlpool.
384
00:31:14.394 --> 00:31:18.575
Well, I think step 1, you know, if nobody knows that you've got Bitcoin,
385
00:31:18.875 --> 00:31:20.414
you're you're literally starting
386
00:31:20.875 --> 00:31:24.780
10, 15 paces ahead of everybody else because you you are
387
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:25.640
almost
388
00:31:26.520 --> 00:31:31.500
well, there's only one other person, and that's your trade counterpart that knows that you own that amount of Bitcoin.
389
00:31:32.505 --> 00:31:34.985
If you sort of start stacking that with,
390
00:31:35.465 --> 00:31:37.404
you know, throwing those stats through Whirlpool,
391
00:31:38.424 --> 00:31:39.224
you know, with the
392
00:31:39.784 --> 00:31:40.924
393
00:31:42.810 --> 00:31:44.990
And he could be chain analyzing you.
394
00:31:45.770 --> 00:31:47.550
395
00:31:48.410 --> 00:31:57.665
396
00:31:58.620 --> 00:32:04.380
And, which is, like, super fucked up. I'm like, I appreciate all you guys who send me like, buy me a drink or whatever. Well
397
00:32:05.365 --> 00:32:31.925
398
00:32:32.529 --> 00:32:34.630
and you do it with, like, some context,
399
00:32:35.330 --> 00:32:45.735
you know, that is sort of like the the most important starting part, you know, some context. In this case, your context was the payment that you received. Like, I I got a donation from, you know, Pleb,
400
00:32:46.195 --> 00:32:49.174
and let's see if I can't figure out what exchange he's using.
401
00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:51.860
I mean, that's that's basically, you know,
402
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.965
pretty easy, you know, for the most part. You know, you're maybe a few hops away from an exchange, and that's
403
00:32:58.445 --> 00:33:02.225
404
00:33:02.765 --> 00:33:03.265
is
405
00:33:03.804 --> 00:33:08.430
and it's hard to blame them. It's it's like the cut mentality of of of privacy
406
00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:13.390
is that they pay me from their exchange account. So I get a lot of, like, Cash App donations,
407
00:33:14.625 --> 00:33:18.085
and it's because they know they know in their head. They're, like,
408
00:33:18.705 --> 00:33:22.884
I will leak private information to Matt or whoever I pay
409
00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:30.549
if if I send them a regular Bitcoin payment. But if I send it from this exchange account, then I'm it's it's like custodial privacy.
410
00:33:30.995 --> 00:33:38.410
Right? It's like they're they're trusting they're like, they know Cash App knows, but at least Matt doesn't know what all my other balances are. Right?
411
00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:48.555
And and this is what concerns me because I see this becoming the norm. I see this being, like, the oh, if you want a private payment, then you just pay with strike. You know, you just pay with Cash App.
412
00:33:49.655 --> 00:33:50.155
And
413
00:33:51.015 --> 00:33:52.315
and and then the regulator
414
00:33:52.695 --> 00:33:55.035
and the KYC entity knows,
415
00:33:55.429 --> 00:33:59.049
but the the average external observer has no idea.
416
00:33:59.510 --> 00:34:03.535
Right? So there's there's different nuances there to to Bitcoin privacy. Right?
417
00:34:04.975 --> 00:34:11.635
418
00:34:12.089 --> 00:34:14.670
literally have no clue the amount of,
419
00:34:15.210 --> 00:34:18.510
breadcrumbs that they'll leave on chain by their different spending habits.
420
00:34:19.224 --> 00:34:23.484
You know, even if you got somebody who's you using HD wallet that doesn't reuse addresses,
421
00:34:24.665 --> 00:34:28.365
you but if but they might be using a wallet that doesn't have coin control.
422
00:34:29.690 --> 00:34:32.210
If they're sort of merging UTXOs from different,
423
00:34:32.650 --> 00:34:33.150
sources,
424
00:34:34.890 --> 00:34:38.535
you know, it might for somebody with ergo skills, it's it's takes,
425
00:34:39.095 --> 00:34:42.395
5 minutes, you know, to tear that transaction history apart.
426
00:34:42.695 --> 00:34:46.555
But most most people are using this stuff. They just have absolutely no idea
427
00:34:47.130 --> 00:34:47.369
the
428
00:34:48.010 --> 00:34:53.230
of the different sort of, trails that they can be leading behind them. And I think that's one of the
429
00:34:55.345 --> 00:34:56.725
hurdles that we've got,
430
00:34:57.745 --> 00:35:01.845
in Bitcoin privacy is to to how how do we raise that awareness
431
00:35:02.225 --> 00:35:05.560
of, you know, this everything that you do on chain
432
00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:24.010
is completely transparent. And and so you need to be so careful as to, you know, using coin control, using CoinJoin to obfuscate that transaction history. But, you know, it's not easy at the end of the day, and and and that's something that I'm trying to get across to people is that just just think before you hit send. What is that bullet doing in the background?
433
00:35:24.310 --> 00:35:26.330
You might be tripping yourself up.
434
00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:28.570
435
00:35:28.925 --> 00:35:32.305
I mean, this is one of the reasons why I think we've all gravitated to samurai,
436
00:35:33.725 --> 00:35:34.625
is is that
437
00:35:35.005 --> 00:35:37.345
is that there's a lot of nuance here, and if
438
00:35:37.740 --> 00:35:37.980
you're
439
00:35:38.540 --> 00:35:42.560
we understand we're never gonna be able to explain this nuance to the average user.
440
00:35:43.340 --> 00:35:50.615
So so, really, ultimately, what we need is we need our apps that we interact with Bitcoin to to kind of automate best practices,
441
00:35:51.155 --> 00:35:52.695
to try and make sure that
442
00:35:53.155 --> 00:35:54.775
on on an average situation,
443
00:35:55.300 --> 00:36:02.280
you're not leaking that much information, and that it's it's it's gonna work as good as it possibly can, or at least, like, you know, 90%
444
00:36:03.075 --> 00:36:06.535
apart from if if you did critical thinking and and had to do it yourself.
445
00:36:06.994 --> 00:36:08.775
Because to expect people to actually
446
00:36:09.315 --> 00:36:09.815
use,
447
00:36:11.109 --> 00:36:18.730
you know, actually think about every payment they make is, like, is a fucking it's a hard task. Like, that is not an easy task even for people like us, I think.
448
00:36:19.035 --> 00:36:24.495
And I think we know that more than other people because we try, and we try and think about it all the time. Like, I I
449
00:36:24.955 --> 00:36:31.329
end up with UTXOs where I'm, like, I know what the fuck I'm gonna do with this UTXO. Like, I don't know what the fuck to do with it.
450
00:36:31.950 --> 00:36:35.569
I'm just gonna leave that there, and I'll I'll I'll reassess it in 6 months.
451
00:36:36.349 --> 00:36:36.849
So
452
00:36:37.215 --> 00:36:42.595
so we need wallets to, like, actually do best practices. But before we get there, I just wanna go back to k y c because
453
00:36:43.135 --> 00:36:45.795
k y c is fucking insidious. Right? And and
454
00:36:46.150 --> 00:36:52.010
insidious. And and what we see is KYC is infecting our whole lives. Like,
455
00:36:52.630 --> 00:37:01.625
people don't realize. They think it's a Bitcoiners don't realize. They think it's a Bitcoin issue. It's not a Bitcoin issue. You've just come to accept it in every other aspect of your life
456
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.580
where Bitcoin is the one aspect there where maybe you questioned it. Maybe you think, like, is it wrong?
457
00:37:10.055 --> 00:37:14.155
So I understand the power power of memes. The power of memes dictates
458
00:37:14.535 --> 00:37:16.715
that there should be no nuance in a meme.
459
00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:21.560
It's not k y c is bad. It's no k y c only.
460
00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:22.840
Okay?
461
00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:28.815
But what if a person is is receiving money into their bank account? They're they're
462
00:37:29.115 --> 00:37:30.175
they're they're paid
463
00:37:30.715 --> 00:37:32.335
via KYC means.
464
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:39.460
They're not paid in cash. They're paid in KYC means. Their check is directly deposited into their bank account on a weekly basis.
465
00:37:42.174 --> 00:37:43.155
To that person,
466
00:37:44.415 --> 00:37:45.555
I think, personally,
467
00:37:46.575 --> 00:37:52.580
the the real the the the the the the scenario there is you reduce your KYC
468
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:53.460
exposure.
469
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.740
You only have 1 KYC onramp that you that you've signed up for,
470
00:37:59.365 --> 00:38:07.224
and you basically funnel your salary through that KYC onramp. Like, I do you guys disagree on that? Like, do you think that that I should basically,
471
00:38:07.690 --> 00:38:13.470
let's say let let's use me as an example. Let's say I'm getting my salaries as paid direct deposit into my
472
00:38:14.010 --> 00:38:15.150
my checking account.
473
00:38:16.075 --> 00:38:24.095
Am I better off withdrawing that to cash and then going and trying to buy, you know, buy Bitcoin with cash or just withdrawing it and then going into Whirlpool
474
00:38:24.450 --> 00:38:27.670
and basically withdrawing it as as CoinJoin UTXOs. Right?
475
00:38:30.370 --> 00:38:37.355
476
00:38:37.974 --> 00:38:40.875
it depends on if you're willing to be noncompliant
477
00:38:41.430 --> 00:38:42.170
or not.
478
00:38:42.870 --> 00:38:50.250
You know, if you're gonna, you know, stack stats and, you know, dollar cost average on your, you know, your exchange,
479
00:38:52.695 --> 00:38:53.195
And,
480
00:38:53.734 --> 00:39:02.660
you know, you're prepared. Like, you sort of know what the repercussions are. It's like, hey. I I sold my soul for the, you know, the the 2% markup instead of the 10% markup.
481
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.099
You know, you just just don't be, you know,
482
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:13.055
fooling yourself that, you know, coin joining is gonna sort of erase, you know, all that KYC history.
483
00:39:13.835 --> 00:39:20.500
You you can coin join and you probably should still coin join, You know, that gives you the optionality at least. You know,
484
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.780
at least it gives you an optionality to be kinda noncompliant.
485
00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:25.860
486
00:39:26.465 --> 00:39:30.405
this is why I bring it up. Right? Because I respect the fuck out of you, and I I agree with you
487
00:39:30.785 --> 00:39:35.445
that that I think the freaks don't realize. I think Bitcoiners in general don't realize
488
00:39:36.450 --> 00:39:41.670
that, obviously, once you KYC, you're never gonna remove that record, you know. Ergo bought
489
00:39:42.690 --> 00:39:44.950
50,000,000 sats. He bought this much Bitcoin.
490
00:39:45.805 --> 00:39:47.825
You're never gonna remove that much record.
491
00:39:50.045 --> 00:39:51.745
But but you can mitigate,
492
00:39:52.809 --> 00:39:59.789
you know, forward privacy. And you can you can you can use CoinJoin, you can use Whirlpool, and you can you can make a situation
493
00:40:00.329 --> 00:40:01.549
for yourself where
494
00:40:02.475 --> 00:40:05.215
where your future transactions are in tracked. And
495
00:40:05.675 --> 00:40:08.575
and and we we spoke earlier about the death of cash.
496
00:40:09.115 --> 00:40:09.615
Right?
497
00:40:10.210 --> 00:40:12.630
If you were trying to remove 15, $10,000
498
00:40:13.170 --> 00:40:14.230
from your bank account,
499
00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:21.945
it is way more difficult to withdraw that as cash and then move into Bitcoin than it is to go into Bitcoin and go into CoinJoin.
500
00:40:23.445 --> 00:40:24.825
So in a lot of ways,
501
00:40:25.765 --> 00:40:27.785
the exit of the KYC system
502
00:40:28.510 --> 00:40:35.570
is easier through Bitcoin. It's probably one of the reasons why they're so fucking anal about KYC on on Bitcoin on ramps. Right?
503
00:40:36.105 --> 00:40:48.560
Well, is it one way? Is it one way out of KYC? Are you gonna Yeah. Yeah. So so so in. Right? Right. No. No. So my motto is so so what I think is is I think there's a place for a single exit ramp of fiat.
504
00:40:49.740 --> 00:40:54.240
Right? That is KYC. Like, you pick 1 you you you pick a single
505
00:40:54.755 --> 00:41:00.535
a single entity that you you're trusting with your KYC information. You you assume they're gonna give it to your government,
506
00:41:01.555 --> 00:41:02.840
and you hope they don't
507
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:04.140
get hacked.
508
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:10.460
And you pick that one entity, and it's just a single on ramp. It's it's just how you enter Bitcoin,
509
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:18.285
and then you go into coin join. I mean, hope is my favorite strategy. Hope is the best. Hope.com, you know, Michael Sailor. There you go.
510
00:41:19.385 --> 00:41:21.724
511
00:41:23.430 --> 00:41:30.970
512
00:41:31.744 --> 00:41:35.605
Oh, shit. I need some I need some SaaS already. Yeah. I can't buy on Bisc.
513
00:41:36.065 --> 00:41:41.580
Okay. I'm gonna go HODL HODL. Okay. They don't serve US customers. So, you know, as much I'm a big,
514
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:43.100
NoCo SEO advocate,
515
00:41:44.040 --> 00:41:47.295
it's it's definitely nowhere near as easy as as,
516
00:41:47.994 --> 00:41:54.015
downloading Cash App and throwing in some bank details. You know, I get that. And and that's the way that most people are gonna do it.
517
00:41:55.390 --> 00:41:56.770
As long as people understand
518
00:41:57.230 --> 00:42:04.695
the the the trade offs of, like you said, Matt, there there'll always be that record that, you know, Matt bought 10,000,000 SATS,
519
00:42:06.195 --> 00:42:07.015
at this date,
520
00:42:07.474 --> 00:42:12.670
and he withdrew to this address. You know, he might go and join afterwards and and get some great forward privacy,
521
00:42:13.850 --> 00:42:14.670
which is good.
522
00:42:14.970 --> 00:42:16.750
You've also got to look at the forward
523
00:42:19.205 --> 00:42:21.385
risks as well depending on your jurisdiction.
524
00:42:22.005 --> 00:42:22.905
There could be,
525
00:42:23.925 --> 00:42:24.905
issues around
526
00:42:27.220 --> 00:42:28.440
future wealth tax.
527
00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:31.320
528
00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:35.400
is obviously visible. Right? So if the coin join becomes illegal,
529
00:42:36.785 --> 00:42:38.885
then you could have that issue as well.
530
00:42:39.425 --> 00:42:43.765
531
00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:49.609
532
00:42:49.910 --> 00:42:52.010
majority of the developed world, let's say.
533
00:42:53.744 --> 00:42:55.045
534
00:42:55.585 --> 00:42:58.325
And then you've also got the the the sort of,
535
00:42:58.865 --> 00:43:00.250
I'd like to hope, less,
536
00:43:00.730 --> 00:43:02.590
likely outcomes like a 6102.
537
00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:07.050
The threat model of that as well.
538
00:43:07.370 --> 00:43:10.030
Again, you know, if we wind it right back to the purchase,
539
00:43:10.365 --> 00:43:15.485
if nobody knows you've got Bitcoin, you are so much more less at risk of these types of,
540
00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:17.220
taxes or,
541
00:43:18.180 --> 00:43:21.160
attacks on the network and and your personal wealth.
542
00:43:21.700 --> 00:43:22.200
So,
543
00:43:22.820 --> 00:43:26.275
you know, definitely not the easiest way to get on board.
544
00:43:26.835 --> 00:43:36.990
But I will say that once you've done it once, it's it's nowhere near as bad as some people on Twitter would make you believe. Well, I mean, look. I love I love Bisc. Bisc is fantastic.
545
00:43:39.850 --> 00:43:40.350
546
00:43:41.225 --> 00:43:45.805
I I I I think that Bisk shares a lot of the issues that Bitcoin has
547
00:43:46.185 --> 00:43:49.165
in that there's, like, a shit ton of nuance there. Right?
548
00:43:50.349 --> 00:43:53.890
With with, like, this, you're a lot of the users are still
549
00:43:54.910 --> 00:43:55.410
doing
550
00:43:56.825 --> 00:44:00.125
bank transfers. Right? So they're doing KYC to KYC transfers.
551
00:44:01.464 --> 00:44:06.445
They're exposing themselves to both their bank, the partner bank, and the partner that they're trading with.
552
00:44:07.290 --> 00:44:07.790
So
553
00:44:08.490 --> 00:44:11.790
really, like, the best economy is the cash in Bitcoin economy. Right?
554
00:44:12.410 --> 00:44:20.865
I just don't think the majority of people, at least in the developed world, I I don't think the majority of freaks that are listening are getting paid in cash. Like, I just don't think that's happening.
555
00:44:21.244 --> 00:44:25.390
So I think they're getting KYC regardless. I think they're already getting hit with the KYC.
556
00:44:26.410 --> 00:44:29.470
So then the question is if they're already getting hit with the KYC,
557
00:44:29.930 --> 00:44:31.470
if they want to be absolutely
558
00:44:32.275 --> 00:44:34.855
if if they're if they're good about it and they're not
559
00:44:35.875 --> 00:44:37.655
exposing themselves as a Bitcoiner
560
00:44:38.595 --> 00:44:45.160
publicly in any other way, then yes, by all means, like, figure out ways to convert that cash into Bitcoin,
561
00:44:46.180 --> 00:44:50.405
locally and and make it happen, you know. And then you don't have any paper record of
562
00:44:50.965 --> 00:44:55.145
it. But if if you're in any way kind of publicly a Bitcoiner,
563
00:44:57.285 --> 00:45:01.450
in this super connected world that we're in and you have KYC funds already,
564
00:45:01.910 --> 00:45:09.609
like, is there that much extra risk to come in via KYC if you if you then automatically throw it into to Whirlpool?
565
00:45:16.474 --> 00:45:17.615
Either of you guys.
566
00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:21.960
567
00:45:22.260 --> 00:45:27.880
nailed it before. Right? You know, it's really hard to get people into Bitcoin kind of in the first place. Yeah. You know, they might
568
00:45:28.355 --> 00:45:29.734
hear about the news of,
569
00:45:30.434 --> 00:45:35.734
you know, the the price the recent price rally and and they might be you know, your friends might be hitting you up about,
570
00:45:36.090 --> 00:45:38.590
yo, you're the Bitcoiner guy, you know, teach me to Bitcoin.
571
00:45:39.850 --> 00:45:42.110
You know, and this sort of falls onto,
572
00:45:42.490 --> 00:45:45.070
you know, the plebs, you know, and
573
00:45:45.595 --> 00:45:58.109
some of you, you know yeah. I mean, it it is an asset to hold and it is going to appreciate in value. And and I don't think that there's, you know, there's there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I think that we all hope that Bitcoin will appreciate in value. But,
574
00:45:58.809 --> 00:46:09.365
you know, knowing what you know, right, or the people that are, like, you know, in the chat, you know, here's here's a good one. What part is BTC pins, he's saying selling shit has been my favorite way to get KYC free Bitcoin.
575
00:46:09.670 --> 00:46:13.370
You know? So that's that's like the attitude that I just love to see.
576
00:46:13.910 --> 00:46:16.890
So when you're like when you're teaching people about Bitcoin,
577
00:46:17.430 --> 00:46:30.150
you're explaining it to your friends, I mean, the best way to sort of explain it is is, you know, digital cash. You know? And I've explained it to people that way that I didn't think would really get it at first, and they've sort of it's clicked for them.
578
00:46:30.530 --> 00:46:37.910
You know, I've gone through the whole, you know, privacy shtick and why, you know, censorship resistance is so important. And and, you know,
579
00:46:38.825 --> 00:46:58.325
I when when newbies hit me up now, it's it's not yeah. I mean, you gotta get you gotta get in. You gotta get in. You gotta get in. It's it's, you know, when you're ready, you know, I'll be here, you know, to help you along the way. And that's sort of one of the things that, you know, everybody else can do is is guide their friends and family kind of, you know, away from KYC
580
00:46:58.625 --> 00:47:08.960
and actually act as a little bit of their you know, may possibly act as their Bitcoin dealer. You know? We're sort of getting to the phase where a lot of people have been around for a little while, and it might start to make sense to sell.
581
00:47:09.580 --> 00:47:10.960
You know, I'm gonna get chastised
582
00:47:13.025 --> 00:47:18.164
583
00:47:18.570 --> 00:47:22.430
Hit me with some KYC free sats, and I go, fuck you. You can't have me.
584
00:47:24.330 --> 00:47:25.230
585
00:47:29.825 --> 00:47:42.330
586
00:47:43.045 --> 00:47:44.744
we are going to have a more,
587
00:47:45.285 --> 00:47:55.830
circular economy. Right? Like, we we will have, you know, Bitcoin rich people who are willing to spend Bitcoin and going out and and actively spending it and people earning it. Right? So you're not buying. You're not selling.
588
00:47:57.605 --> 00:48:03.785
You're you're you're trading. You're you're you're you're earning it or you're you're, like, buying goods and services with it.
589
00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:07.840
So I I think, ultimately, it kind of
590
00:48:08.380 --> 00:48:10.800
mitigates itself in that in that regard.
591
00:48:11.420 --> 00:48:15.360
But, clearly, what we've seen from governments is, like, basically, the attack here
592
00:48:15.965 --> 00:48:22.865
is they get as much information on as many addresses and many users as possible, and they they basically try and
593
00:48:24.980 --> 00:48:31.400
process of eliminated out. Right? So if Ergo isn't doing KYC, maybe someone pays Ergo with the KYC
594
00:48:32.020 --> 00:48:33.205
whatever that they know.
595
00:48:33.925 --> 00:48:42.620
And they and they they try and, like, process eliminate you out. It is the biggest attack vector, and it it's just something that people should be absolutely fucking aware of all the time.
596
00:48:48.540 --> 00:48:54.295
So Nick Ward right now is the commissioner of my Bitcoin Fantasy League,
597
00:48:54.595 --> 00:49:03.060
and he's saying run a Bitcoin Fantasy League and collect league fees as your KYC free stack. I promise you, Nick, that I was the only one who paid you with CoinJoin
598
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:14.704
SATS, and every single other person paid you directly from their exchange or broker. You probably got majority and and probably Jack Mahler's himself could probably know the majority of the people who paid you.
599
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:20.900
And and so, like so for you to say it's a KYC free stack, okay, I guess.
600
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:29.125
You know? But if you if you add that metadata of us all being in the same Telegram group, us all tweeting about being in the same fantasy league, us all paying
601
00:49:29.425 --> 00:49:32.885
the addresses at the same time that got paid out at the same time,
602
00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.100
you end up in a situation where it gets really dark really quickly.
603
00:49:40.485 --> 00:49:41.285
604
00:49:41.845 --> 00:49:46.505
made a comment about BISK in the chat. He said that BISK transactions are easily identifiable
605
00:49:47.445 --> 00:49:51.160
and trackable, and there's a there's a lot of work to do in the BISK wallet.
606
00:49:52.180 --> 00:49:57.880
Just one comment back from me on that one. I mean, you know, the whole point of BISK is that you're not tying
607
00:49:59.845 --> 00:50:00.345
your,
608
00:50:01.525 --> 00:50:05.625
real life identity to to whatever Bitcoin that you're buying.
609
00:50:07.830 --> 00:50:10.010
Most wallets have a fingerprint on chain.
610
00:50:10.310 --> 00:50:12.890
Most transactions have, you know, there's obviously,
611
00:50:13.350 --> 00:50:14.810
common transaction fingerprints.
612
00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:17.795
Coin joints have have have recently identify
613
00:50:18.175 --> 00:50:18.915
and identifiable
614
00:50:19.215 --> 00:50:19.875
on chain.
615
00:50:20.655 --> 00:50:32.140
I think you're kinda missing the point there a little bit and the fact that the whole the whole piece around BISK is that you're buying it and and not what okay. There's one person that knows your your real name, but,
616
00:50:33.165 --> 00:50:36.305
the the point isn't to obfuscate that transaction on chain.
617
00:50:36.685 --> 00:50:40.145
618
00:50:41.040 --> 00:50:41.700
619
00:50:42.080 --> 00:50:50.825
620
00:50:51.365 --> 00:50:53.225
that also gets linked to your best transaction.
621
00:50:55.685 --> 00:51:00.810
Yeah. For sure. But I I I just think I think people I think it's important for people to realize that,
622
00:51:01.990 --> 00:51:04.490
they think if you're a Bisc user, you don't need CoinJoin.
623
00:51:06.150 --> 00:51:07.930
I think that's completely false.
624
00:51:08.244 --> 00:51:16.505
I I I think as a Bisk user, you need CoinJoin for two reasons. I think you're protecting yourself from the counterparty. Like, your counterparty shouldn't know what you spend your fucking Bitcoin on,
625
00:51:17.230 --> 00:51:26.895
and also you're you're protecting yourself from that fingerprinting. Right? Like, if we think that governments are gonna push back on CoinJoin usage, they're definitely gonna push back on Bisc usage.
626
00:51:28.975 --> 00:51:34.915
627
00:51:35.560 --> 00:51:36.700
Sats as your deposit.
628
00:51:37.080 --> 00:51:38.860
If you can't hold of any NoCoIC
629
00:51:39.160 --> 00:51:42.780
Sats, use a a post mix UTXO from Whirlpool,
630
00:51:43.664 --> 00:51:47.525
to fund that security deposit will be the 2nd best option there, really.
631
00:51:48.305 --> 00:51:53.010
632
00:51:54.770 --> 00:52:01.030
633
00:52:01.410 --> 00:52:02.950
I think he's talking about Fantasy.
634
00:52:04.195 --> 00:52:09.815
I think he paid with strike. I think he's admitting he paid with strike for Fantasy. It's okay, Brian. I know you did.
635
00:52:11.730 --> 00:52:15.990
I mean, I don't know you did because you paid Nick, but I just assumed you did. It's okay.
636
00:52:18.345 --> 00:52:21.965
Once in future saying to bust for BPC. Yes. I agree. I
637
00:52:22.345 --> 00:52:25.485
this is what I'm saying. Like, I I I think that ultimately,
638
00:52:26.070 --> 00:52:34.250
a lot of these problems kinda solve themselves when we leave this situation where most people are are are entering on an on ramp or an off ramp,
639
00:52:35.984 --> 00:52:49.840
where it's a circular economy. But still, you're gonna need Heavy CoinJoin. You're gonna need Lightning usage. I mean, I know you guys. So I I think Bitcoin q and a is a little more bullish on on Lightning, but, ergo, you're you're very bearish on Lightning. Well,
640
00:52:50.220 --> 00:52:52.320
is Lightning a a privacy,
641
00:52:54.205 --> 00:52:59.025
a prospective privacy thing we should be be looking forward to, or is it just all bullshit?
642
00:52:59.325 --> 00:53:06.370
643
00:53:06.990 --> 00:53:08.290
I just can't be bothered.
644
00:53:09.174 --> 00:53:12.234
645
00:53:12.535 --> 00:53:13.035
646
00:53:13.335 --> 00:53:16.875
It's just too much work, too much headache, you know, from what I can tell.
647
00:53:17.890 --> 00:53:22.710
And, you know, then we get into the just use lightning because that will fix everything,
648
00:53:24.049 --> 00:53:32.204
kind of mentality. And I know not everybody kind of thinks that really thinks that. Some people just sort of throw that around, but kind of argument around on Twitter.
649
00:53:32.505 --> 00:53:33.964
Damn. Yeah. He's the fan.
650
00:53:36.010 --> 00:53:44.030
This comic is great. A lot of people throw that around, like, you know, if we just bolt this layer too on top of the base layer that doesn't have the privacy, then we'll be fine.
651
00:53:44.375 --> 00:53:47.355
And there was a paper not too long ago about, you know,
652
00:53:48.215 --> 00:53:48.715
whatever,
653
00:53:49.575 --> 00:54:05.875
I actually don't know who wrote it. But anyway, you know, they they they boiled it down to something along the lines of, well, l m big still controls the majority of the channels. And because all we know we know which clusters are are spending into the channel openings, we can figure out a lot about what's going on.
654
00:54:06.495 --> 00:54:06.995
And,
655
00:54:07.295 --> 00:54:15.140
you know, that's not really encouraging. Right? It sort of still, you know, really kinda paints the picture that, you know, the on chain privacy is still
656
00:54:15.839 --> 00:54:19.780
still matters. It's still going to matter. It's not gonna just go away. You know?
657
00:54:20.945 --> 00:54:26.325
So, you know, that's that's kinda where I'm at for now, you know, and maybe at some point, I'll give it a shot,
658
00:54:27.060 --> 00:54:31.560
You know? But I'll let q and a maybe talk about his experience because he's actually used the thing.
659
00:54:32.740 --> 00:54:35.160
660
00:54:37.125 --> 00:54:38.585
I've got 2 lightning nodes.
661
00:54:38.885 --> 00:54:42.265
I'll be open and honest. The only time I've ever used it for transactions
662
00:54:42.565 --> 00:54:43.065
is,
663
00:54:44.244 --> 00:54:44.744
donations
664
00:54:46.319 --> 00:54:47.859
or feeding chickens or,
665
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.359
just stuff like I I or I bought,
666
00:54:55.745 --> 00:54:56.645
what's the,
667
00:54:58.145 --> 00:55:01.125
the magazine, not Citadel 21, the other one? 21ism.
668
00:55:01.505 --> 00:55:03.285
I paid for 21ism on lightning.
669
00:55:03.665 --> 00:55:04.090
But,
670
00:55:04.570 --> 00:55:05.070
ultimately,
671
00:55:05.610 --> 00:55:10.510
I think, like Hugo said, on chains where it's at, I mean, I just don't have a need for
672
00:55:11.425 --> 00:55:12.625
regular lightning channel
673
00:55:13.025 --> 00:55:14.805
sorry. Regular lightning payments.
674
00:55:16.145 --> 00:55:19.605
I'm a bit more bullish, like you said, Matt, on on the promise of
675
00:55:21.750 --> 00:55:29.770
of the future of, you know, what Bitcoin can do for for sorry. What Lightning can do for for for layer 1 in terms of scaling.
676
00:55:30.925 --> 00:55:37.505
But, ultimately, it's tied back to layer 1. And so I think it's not gonna be a silver bullet for for privacy.
677
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:39.460
Yes, you can run,
678
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:47.235
lightning nodes over to all. You can have private channels. I think they're both good solutions, but I think it's far too early to tell really,
679
00:55:47.635 --> 00:55:48.215
in terms
680
00:55:49.235 --> 00:55:53.895
of how private it's gonna be and and whether there's any tools that can be built on top of that
681
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:57.080
to to further that sort of,
682
00:55:58.520 --> 00:56:00.940
that strain of privacy for for users, really.
683
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:02.540
684
00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:03.900
so,
685
00:56:06.425 --> 00:56:13.245
like, I wish the space I dedicated myself to didn't have some like, dedicated myself to education, didn't have so much fucking nuance with everything.
686
00:56:15.080 --> 00:56:15.980
687
00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:17.500
688
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.820
that we have to deal like, especially now with the the the price pump,
689
00:56:22.695 --> 00:56:23.595
we've had
690
00:56:24.455 --> 00:56:25.195
an insane
691
00:56:25.815 --> 00:56:36.810
an insane amount of of newcomers have come in, and they're asking me, like, all these, like, little questions about, like, UTXO management and all these different things, and and it it makes it way more difficult. Like, ultimately,
692
00:56:37.295 --> 00:56:40.355
people should be able to download an app, and it should be easy for them.
693
00:56:42.175 --> 00:56:44.275
There's an interesting aspect with Lightning.
694
00:56:44.655 --> 00:56:45.475
With Lightning,
695
00:56:46.050 --> 00:56:48.550
the spender has more privacy than the receiver.
696
00:56:50.930 --> 00:56:52.470
The spender has significantly
697
00:56:52.770 --> 00:56:54.950
more privacy than the receiver. The receiver
698
00:56:55.835 --> 00:56:57.535
has a a static
699
00:56:57.994 --> 00:57:04.095
basically, a static pub key that that describes them. So if your static pub key gets leaked on the Internet somewhere,
700
00:57:04.555 --> 00:57:09.190
it gets connected to you. Any invoice that gets paid with that static pub key,
701
00:57:11.890 --> 00:57:13.435
is you. They know it's you.
702
00:57:14.075 --> 00:57:24.520
On the sending side, though, there's way more privacy, and it's kind of thrown on its head with custodial wallets for whatever reason. Like, we're supposed to be against custodial wallets, but for custodial wallets,
703
00:57:25.540 --> 00:57:29.240
you you have you you get, like, a little bit extra privacy there.
704
00:57:31.220 --> 00:57:31.720
But,
705
00:57:32.325 --> 00:57:36.025
yeah, I I I I I think, ultimately, when it comes time to spending,
706
00:57:36.964 --> 00:57:40.105
I'd oh, I almost always prefer to spend to a lightning invoice.
707
00:57:42.110 --> 00:57:45.970
I don't know how to receive privately. I don't even know if it's possible without custodial,
708
00:57:46.830 --> 00:57:47.765
Lightning right now.
709
00:57:49.605 --> 00:58:01.160
You know, in in terms of, like, being a content creator, like, tip me. Right? Like, right now, if you wanna tip me, you tip me through tip and not me. It's custodial wallet. I don't know how you do it in a in any kind of private fashion.
710
00:58:02.260 --> 00:58:06.745
I guess you could do Keysend, but you're there's no there's no privacy whatsoever there. Right?
711
00:58:07.465 --> 00:58:08.205
So I
712
00:58:09.545 --> 00:58:20.560
so I struggle with that aspect, but but another aspect on the sending side is that you don't have that toxic change. Right? There's no toxic change when you when you spend from a a lightning invoice.
713
00:58:21.340 --> 00:58:28.255
So you don't have to deal with that change on a future date, which is one of the things that I think a lot of us have to deal with all the time. Right?
714
00:58:30.155 --> 00:58:33.010
715
00:58:33.490 --> 00:58:37.030
obviously, with the recent price pump and and slightly more sustained
716
00:58:37.410 --> 00:58:38.230
higher fees,
717
00:58:39.490 --> 00:58:40.710
I I would have expected
718
00:58:41.010 --> 00:58:41.670
to see
719
00:58:42.755 --> 00:58:44.775
total capacity in the lightning network increase.
720
00:58:45.795 --> 00:58:51.430
I haven't seen it yet. Obviously, you know, I know what you're gonna say is it's all public it's all private channels.
721
00:58:52.130 --> 00:58:53.670
No. No. But you would have expect
722
00:58:53.970 --> 00:58:56.710
you would have expected to see a bit more of a jump,
723
00:58:57.424 --> 00:59:01.525
in in the public capacity, and and it's still over just over a 1000 BTC.
724
00:59:02.065 --> 00:59:04.164
725
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:08.500
726
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:11.460
727
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:17.835
Same with same with Whirlpool. Same with the unspent capacity in Whirlpool.
728
00:59:19.255 --> 00:59:23.194
729
00:59:24.140 --> 00:59:24.640
Shit.
730
00:59:26.620 --> 00:59:29.680
731
00:59:30.620 --> 00:59:34.065
And I don't I don't pretend that's that's, you know,
732
00:59:34.365 --> 00:59:36.545
any any other case there, you know. I I,
733
00:59:39.405 --> 00:59:40.305
I'm I'm
734
00:59:41.160 --> 00:59:44.940
maybe more technical than most people, but I'm not a very technical person.
735
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:49.900
I mean, the freaks will laugh, but I'm not a very technical person if you compare me to, like, a Bitcoin people.
736
00:59:52.455 --> 00:59:52.955
But
737
00:59:53.415 --> 00:59:57.595
my way of learning is by getting my my feet dirty, you know, getting my hands dirty.
738
00:59:58.070 --> 01:00:00.490
And so I'm running one of the largest,
739
01:00:01.030 --> 01:00:02.650
onion only routing nodes,
740
01:00:03.110 --> 01:00:04.170
on the lightning network.
741
01:00:05.190 --> 01:00:06.705
I lose money every day.
742
01:00:07.185 --> 01:00:10.405
Like, I I don't make any money on there's no like, I see
743
01:00:10.945 --> 01:00:13.845
you when you route through a node on Lightning,
744
01:00:14.260 --> 01:00:18.680
you trust that node. They see payment came from this node sent to this node.
745
01:00:19.620 --> 01:00:21.080
So I see those payments.
746
01:00:21.445 --> 01:00:24.585
I'm one of the biggest lightning node, onion lightning nodes,
747
01:00:25.285 --> 01:00:28.265
and there's just not much activity. There's, like, there's
748
01:00:28.940 --> 01:00:41.525
there's activity. I'm I'm not saying there's no activity. There's definitely activity, but there's there's there's not that much activity, and I think that's fine. Like, I you know, it it it is what it is. Like, what right now, like, what the lightning public capacity is, like, $25,000,000.
749
01:00:43.425 --> 01:00:51.750
Like, that's fine. Like, what would how you know, how much you how many low value transactions are really going through in general that need to be served?
750
01:00:55.694 --> 01:00:58.015
751
01:00:58.734 --> 01:01:08.760
I've got this feeling that a lot of lightning usage is gonna be custodial going forward just because, you know, the very nature of it is it's smaller value transactions and that people are just gonna be okay with that.
752
01:01:10.225 --> 01:01:13.925
753
01:01:14.465 --> 01:01:15.525
is interoperable,
754
01:01:16.545 --> 01:01:17.525
custodial wallets.
755
01:01:18.869 --> 01:01:22.549
Custodial wallets that that can easily interact with each other and pay each other.
756
01:01:24.309 --> 01:01:31.395
I think the the main issue is, first of all, no one can talk about it because if you're running a custodial wallet, you're just constantly in government crosshairs.
757
01:01:31.775 --> 01:01:34.595
And then second of all, you're constantly in government crosshairs.
758
01:01:35.200 --> 01:01:41.539
So if if but but then again, if we were in a situation where you weren't in government crosshairs, you wouldn't need Bitcoin to begin with.
759
01:01:43.295 --> 01:01:50.275
So so, like, we're I I think what what the reality is gonna be is we're gonna be in a situation where you're in, like, quasi custodial situations,
760
01:01:51.240 --> 01:01:57.500
which is I know I mean, I know Ergo hasn't used it, but I think Bitcoin q and a has used it, like Breeze and Phoenix.
761
01:01:59.585 --> 01:02:04.885
Right? Have you used them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So I wouldn't say they're completely self custody.
762
01:02:05.665 --> 01:02:14.530
763
01:02:15.565 --> 01:02:24.740
764
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:27.540
They they probably can't get hit by regulators
765
01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:28.740
for custodial
766
01:02:29.200 --> 01:02:30.500
wallet usage. Right?
767
01:02:31.974 --> 01:02:35.275
That's the key. That's what people don't realize. That's the key.
768
01:02:35.655 --> 01:02:37.355
They're getting around that issue.
769
01:02:39.690 --> 01:02:42.730
770
01:02:44.010 --> 01:02:47.789
gray area where, obviously, they're the easiest way to onboard into lightning.
771
01:02:48.445 --> 01:02:51.345
But they, like you said, they they they are
772
01:02:51.805 --> 01:02:52.305
ultimately
773
01:02:52.925 --> 01:02:54.065
just about custodial
774
01:02:54.525 --> 01:02:56.190
non custodial, should they say.
775
01:02:56.750 --> 01:03:06.434
But I think it could be a good gateway drug into getting people to do lightning, what I would consider the prop the proper way. But, obviously, that then turned into an absolute clusterfuck
776
01:03:06.974 --> 01:03:10.994
of channel management and etcetera, etcetera. And that's why ultimately
777
01:03:11.295 --> 01:03:12.770
most people aren't doing it
778
01:03:13.970 --> 01:03:15.110
that way yet.
779
01:03:15.810 --> 01:03:19.670
Hopefully, that changes in the future, but I think we're a long way off from it yet.
780
01:03:24.194 --> 01:03:33.610
781
01:03:34.710 --> 01:03:36.090
So thanks for asking.
782
01:03:38.310 --> 01:03:51.920
Phoenix is great. Look, I I think Phoenix is great. I just I I Phoenix is a fantastic wallet. They can just take your money if they wanna take your money. But also at the same time, like, if I had argue in front of a court of law, I could probably argue that they're not custodial.
783
01:03:52.540 --> 01:03:58.495
And I I think there's a there's a distinction there, and that's basically what the Lightning ecosystem is going for right now,
784
01:03:59.215 --> 01:04:00.835
because you have to balance UX,
785
01:04:01.615 --> 01:04:03.795
which is, like, this trust element versus,
786
01:04:05.295 --> 01:04:07.100
basically, regulators fucking you.
787
01:04:07.660 --> 01:04:13.120
If if if we didn't have to deal with regulators, I think really the Lindy thing that would happen
788
01:04:13.580 --> 01:04:16.960
is we'd end up in a situation where we had a bunch of trusted custodians
789
01:04:17.565 --> 01:04:19.425
that weren't taking KYC info.
790
01:04:19.964 --> 01:04:27.860
But we don't have that situation because regulators force the custodians to take KYC info. Otherwise, they get seized or shut down or whatnot or whatnot.
791
01:04:28.160 --> 01:04:34.340
And and that's one of the things that I think people don't realize with Bitcoin is the early days of Bitcoin was dominated by custodial services.
792
01:04:34.645 --> 01:04:39.385
And almost this this idea that we've switched over to to basically self custody,
793
01:04:40.405 --> 01:04:43.224
as a status quo if you leave a regulated platform,
794
01:04:43.660 --> 01:04:52.240
It's basically allowed people to get identified way easier. Right? Because it used to be, like, if you withdrew from, like, a Coinbase or a Mt. Gox or something,
795
01:04:53.194 --> 01:05:02.335
yeah, like, maybe you withdrew into Custodial Wallet. Like, maybe you didn't even control those UTXOs. Maybe they were just getting sent around by someone else. But now that they've stamped those guys out,
796
01:05:02.640 --> 01:05:05.380
it's almost like they just assume it's it's you.
797
01:05:10.775 --> 01:05:11.275
798
01:05:11.655 --> 01:05:13.515
I completely agree. I think I mean,
799
01:05:14.535 --> 01:05:15.755
curious to know,
800
01:05:16.455 --> 01:05:19.035
you mentioned that you you run one of the biggest,
801
01:05:19.495 --> 01:05:19.995
onion
802
01:05:20.569 --> 01:05:22.349
routed nodes on lightning.
803
01:05:22.650 --> 01:05:25.150
Is that on a Raspi blitz by any chance?
804
01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:27.210
805
01:05:27.770 --> 01:05:29.525
shout out to Askwo who's here,
806
01:05:30.724 --> 01:05:32.424
and Kito. It's on a nozzle,
807
01:05:33.285 --> 01:05:36.904
which I think is a Roc 64, the first generation nozzle.
808
01:05:37.830 --> 01:05:38.570
809
01:05:39.590 --> 01:05:41.770
810
01:05:42.870 --> 01:05:43.370
$250,
811
01:05:43.830 --> 01:05:48.645
$300 box, fucking one of the largest routing nodes on lightning, so props to them.
812
01:05:50.305 --> 01:05:52.405
Were you gonna fud raspi blitzes?
813
01:05:53.210 --> 01:05:55.710
814
01:05:57.930 --> 01:06:02.030
815
01:06:05.825 --> 01:06:28.935
I'm not even gonna comment on Luke's risk. So that's not where you were going, just to be clear? No. No. No. I was just I was genuinely curious. Oh, okay. As to which one you what platform you were running on. No. Yeah. I mean, that was the Nava o g. I mean, look, I was a lightning bear. I was a lightning bear, and then I became super lightning bullish. I opened way too many channels, and then I became a lightning bear again. And now I'm, like, cautiously optimistic on lightning.
816
01:06:30.830 --> 01:06:36.050
I've gone through, like, all the phases. I've gone through a boom I've gone through a proper boom bust cycle of lightning.
817
01:06:37.845 --> 01:06:54.585
818
01:06:55.065 --> 01:06:55.645
on lightning.
819
01:06:59.705 --> 01:07:04.920
I think we've lost Ergo, by the way, on on the lightning chat. Well, you guys were on a roll. I didn't wanna interrupt.
820
01:07:05.619 --> 01:07:10.440
821
01:07:11.665 --> 01:07:20.244
The paper link that you sent, that PDF, that was not the paper I was referring to. I will find the one that I was referring to, and I'll get it to you.
822
01:07:20.930 --> 01:07:22.470
And he asked a question about
823
01:07:24.210 --> 01:07:25.990
volumes for custodial tumblers.
824
01:07:26.930 --> 01:07:32.665
Will they institute, you know, something along the lines of a a, you know, an hourly volume limit?
825
01:07:33.285 --> 01:07:35.785
And first off, thank you for reading
826
01:07:36.085 --> 01:07:37.385
our OXC report.
827
01:07:37.870 --> 01:07:39.650
I know it's it's quite a tome.
828
01:07:41.390 --> 01:07:50.585
But one thing that I don't think we really mentioned in the report is that the custodial tumblers, they they at a very high level, they sort of act as kind of a swap service where
829
01:07:51.684 --> 01:07:54.430
they basically take, you know, different UTXOs
830
01:07:54.730 --> 01:08:05.015
controlled by different users. They go into their sort of custodial spreadsheet. And on the way out, they they basically just say, okay. You know, user a's coins are now user b's coins.
831
01:08:05.875 --> 01:08:07.335
And so user a,
832
01:08:08.035 --> 01:08:10.295
gives his history to kinda user b.
833
01:08:10.910 --> 01:08:14.930
And people or custodial tumblers kind of run into problems when,
834
01:08:16.350 --> 01:08:17.970
they send in too much volume.
835
01:08:19.065 --> 01:08:22.445
A single user sends in too much volume. They drain the available liquidity,
836
01:08:22.905 --> 01:08:26.179
and they start getting their own coins in return. And so 6102
837
01:08:26.480 --> 01:08:34.260
is kind of getting at, hey. You know, shouldn't they just limit the hourly volume, you know, to to kinda keep people from getting their own coins back?
838
01:08:34.954 --> 01:08:50.380
And I guess they they kinda don't wanna do that. Right? It's a custodial service. Imagine telling someone that they can't get their coins back. They'd probably, you know, freak out. So what they do as kind of an alternative is they they have their own, and I'm using scare quotes here, reserves
839
01:08:51.215 --> 01:08:58.435
where when, you know, whatever available liquidity they have gets low, they'll inject their own liquidity so that a user doesn't get their own coins back.
840
01:08:58.740 --> 01:09:00.920
Except that chip mixer doesn't really
841
01:09:01.220 --> 01:09:05.800
appear to do that. So that's a really long rambling answer to 6102's question.
842
01:09:06.344 --> 01:09:11.485
So 6102, let me know you got that. And, otherwise, you know, both I'll see you in my DMs.
843
01:09:13.240 --> 01:09:17.080
844
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:22.060
So that's fantastic. Yep. Yep. He was listening. Rate limit on the way in, he says.
845
01:09:23.425 --> 01:09:26.485
846
01:09:26.865 --> 01:09:29.125
and how do you how do you rate limit lightning.
847
01:09:29.585 --> 01:09:40.170
848
01:09:44.305 --> 01:09:58.915
I know. That's a negative. I'm just saying. I'm just stating the fact. Like, people don't talk about this. Like, it it is one of the cool things about Lightning for, compliance, bro, is that you can choose how much gets deposited. With OnChain Bitcoin, you can't. You give an address, they just deposit.
849
01:10:00.175 --> 01:10:03.075
850
01:10:04.150 --> 01:10:16.895
851
01:10:17.355 --> 01:10:21.870
Yeah. So so so for compliance pros, like, Lightning is really nice in that respect.
852
01:10:22.250 --> 01:10:25.470
You can you can both pay a a a pre whitelisted,
853
01:10:26.650 --> 01:10:27.710
pub key node.
854
01:10:28.105 --> 01:10:33.565
Right? So, like, you can you can choose who you pay, and you can also choose how much money comes onto your platform.
855
01:10:36.020 --> 01:10:59.390
856
01:11:00.490 --> 01:11:01.870
857
01:11:03.485 --> 01:11:07.425
858
01:11:08.685 --> 01:11:10.625
And you didn't that's a shame.
859
01:11:11.400 --> 01:11:14.940
860
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.615
So, I mean, we brought up your OXG research,
861
01:11:21.015 --> 01:11:23.195
report, which I think is is fantastic.
862
01:11:24.055 --> 01:11:32.020
So I I think we should definitely talk about it. It is available for purchase right now, but it's also gonna be available for free in a couple days,
863
01:11:32.480 --> 01:11:34.579
which I think is a really cool business model.
864
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:36.099
I like that idea.
865
01:11:36.719 --> 01:11:38.420
I appreciate the work you do.
866
01:11:40.855 --> 01:11:47.575
I do have the actual report up on the thing. So there is a little spoiler there in terms of of what you can see if if you
867
01:11:48.200 --> 01:11:49.660
once you view this report.
868
01:11:50.600 --> 01:11:53.260
One of the things that's interesting to me, I think,
869
01:11:53.560 --> 01:11:58.665
is that is that the people on on Bitcoin Twitter that talk about privacy will talk about,
870
01:12:01.205 --> 01:12:03.225
you know, who knows what information,
871
01:12:03.765 --> 01:12:11.949
like, what is the trusted relationship there? Like, it needs to be perfectly trustless in order to be a a practical privacy solution for Bitcoiners.
872
01:12:13.235 --> 01:12:16.054
But if we look into it, like, the majority of
873
01:12:16.355 --> 01:12:20.215
of of private Bitcoin usage goes through straight up custodial tumblers.
874
01:12:21.330 --> 01:12:30.150
Where not only are you trusting them with your full privacy, you're trusting them with your fucking UTXOs. Like, you're trusting them with your Bitcoin. They can steal your fucking money
875
01:12:30.995 --> 01:12:32.615
and they can dox you.
876
01:12:33.795 --> 01:12:38.135
They get the majority of volume, like, joint market, Wasabi, Whirlpool
877
01:12:38.515 --> 01:12:43.300
get nothing. They get negligible amount of volume in comparison to these custodial
878
01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:44.180
mixers.
879
01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:46.665
Let's talk about that.
880
01:12:48.985 --> 01:12:53.085
881
01:12:53.790 --> 01:12:56.370
you know, most of these reports, they're they're fairly technical.
882
01:12:57.310 --> 01:13:04.195
But, you know, I'm I'm trying to get to the point where I can hopefully distill this down for for kinda most people.
883
01:13:06.815 --> 01:13:08.034
Did I lose you guys?
884
01:13:08.735 --> 01:13:13.554
885
01:13:14.080 --> 01:13:14.580
886
01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:23.540
you know, Matt brings up kind of an interesting point about kind of what, you know, Bitcoin privacy and quotes used to look like. And I I hinted on it a little while ago about,
887
01:13:24.065 --> 01:13:26.165
you know, kind of the custodial tumblers.
888
01:13:27.265 --> 01:13:30.005
And, you know, we kinda get guilty of of
889
01:13:30.910 --> 01:13:40.130
blurring the lines. We just say mix, and mix sort of starts to represent coinjoin and tumbler. And I hate that. Yeah. I know. And it and it's important to to keep them distinct.
890
01:13:41.265 --> 01:13:42.885
But, you know, I get lazy
891
01:13:43.265 --> 01:13:45.185
and people will hate that. But,
892
01:13:46.545 --> 01:13:47.045
so
893
01:13:47.425 --> 01:13:48.245
in the report,
894
01:13:48.625 --> 01:13:53.480
what we did was we tracked, you know, the 1,000 Bitcoin that were stolen from the KuCoin hack,
895
01:13:53.860 --> 01:13:54.360
KuCoin,
896
01:13:54.980 --> 01:13:56.920
Hong Kong Exchange in September.
897
01:13:58.335 --> 01:14:00.355
As they sort of made their way through,
898
01:14:01.614 --> 01:14:02.915
you know, basically,
899
01:14:03.375 --> 01:14:09.560
kind of a 3 sort of overall mixer process. You know, they use chip mixer, which is kind of one of the oldest,
900
01:14:11.620 --> 01:14:12.680
custodial tumblers.
901
01:14:13.415 --> 01:14:21.355
They used Wasabi. Well, they apparently used Wasabi, at least at first glance, and they also used, another custodial tumbler called Blender.
902
01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:30.540
And, you know, Matt brings up kind of an interesting point about sort of, you know, the meme of, you know, kind of custodial Tumblr volumes.
903
01:14:31.415 --> 01:14:40.950
And at least as a part of this report, we, you know, in order to kinda try to attempt to track the stolen coins across both mixers, We had to,
904
01:14:41.650 --> 01:14:48.550
spend a good amount of time and, you know, first identify them as best we could, identify the volumes that they were doing kinda daily.
905
01:14:49.250 --> 01:14:49.750
And,
906
01:14:50.115 --> 01:14:58.855
you know, the interesting thing is is to kinda see sort of the average amount of Bitcoin that these sort of custodial tumblers are are doing every day.
907
01:15:00.300 --> 01:15:04.880
My intuition was that it would have been higher than what kind of came out in this report.
908
01:15:05.420 --> 01:15:13.405
And what we sort of found was Chip Mixer, which is one of the oldest and most recognized, was around 85 bitcoin a day in average over the last several months.
909
01:15:13.705 --> 01:15:15.485
And Blender, which is
910
01:15:15.860 --> 01:15:21.720
another custodial Tumblr, was I I think it was an average around a 115 Bitcoin a day.
911
01:15:22.180 --> 01:15:27.375
And so I think Blender probably has some of the higher volumes just kind of in general.
912
01:15:28.074 --> 01:15:32.160
And if you look at that kinda compared to some of the the the noncustodial,
913
01:15:32.540 --> 01:15:35.679
the the the the coin joins, the traditional coin joins,
914
01:15:36.699 --> 01:15:40.595
the the the volumes, you know, aren't as different as I would have thought,
915
01:15:41.155 --> 01:15:42.695
which is kind of a good sign.
916
01:15:43.315 --> 01:15:47.815
I know a lot of these sort of older custodial tumblers, like this kind of
917
01:15:48.240 --> 01:15:59.505
network effect is just really die hard people. They you know, darknet market users are swapping their coins and thinking that they're getting, you know, some real privacy. And that kind of thing just sort of really dies hard, but,
918
01:16:00.765 --> 01:16:07.410
you know, it it was it was a a good experience to kind of, you know, spend the time and and identify some of these,
919
01:16:07.870 --> 01:16:13.970
these services because we talk about them, but, you know, nobody's really spent the time to to, you know, even look at them.
920
01:16:16.335 --> 01:16:22.115
Let me see. Oh, 6102 is asking, how did the chain surveillance companies miss the blender tumbler?
921
01:16:23.880 --> 01:16:27.579
And so in the report for, you know, one of the first times,
922
01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:29.900
I think we have identified
923
01:16:30.495 --> 01:16:30.995
Blender,
924
01:16:31.375 --> 01:16:34.755
which does more volume than chip mixer. Chip mixer is
925
01:16:35.135 --> 01:16:36.195
kind of really
926
01:16:36.735 --> 01:16:42.389
apparent on chain because of the the denomination outputs. Sort of has a coin joined fingerprint.
927
01:16:43.489 --> 01:16:56.865
So it's very easily recognized. It was recognized in the Twitter hack. It's been recognized in in other kind of chain surveillance company reports or blog posts or whatever. And so the, you know, 6102 is asking, well, how did they find Blender?
928
01:16:57.420 --> 01:16:59.199
Blender doesn't have that
929
01:17:00.619 --> 01:17:03.980
that coin joint fingerprint. It doesn't have the fixed denomination outputs,
930
01:17:04.985 --> 01:17:06.605
whereas Chipmixer has 0.001,
931
01:17:07.385 --> 01:17:07.885
0.002,
932
01:17:08.664 --> 01:17:09.164
0.004,
933
01:17:09.704 --> 01:17:14.980
and so on. It's very apparent on chain. And Blender is less so,
934
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:17.860
but it does have somewhat of a fingerprint.
935
01:17:18.560 --> 01:17:21.860
And I think the reason that many of the chain surveillance
936
01:17:22.864 --> 01:17:27.764
firms miss this is because of the transaction graph tools that they use.
937
01:17:28.704 --> 01:17:29.204
They,
938
01:17:30.390 --> 01:17:37.370
from what I can tell, from sort of the the public displays that they put out of their transaction graphs, it's unclear kind of
939
01:17:37.675 --> 01:17:42.575
the the true relationship that the transaction graph is trying to show, whereas OXT
940
01:17:43.435 --> 01:17:50.890
is very pure, and it shows the only the relationship of inputs and outputs in kind of a transaction. So we identified
941
01:17:51.350 --> 01:17:53.930
Blender because we saw multiple
942
01:17:54.495 --> 01:18:01.554
outputs from a previous transaction getting used in the following transaction, which if you're kind of using the pure transaction graph, stands out.
943
01:18:04.210 --> 01:18:05.590
So what does he say?
944
01:18:06.210 --> 01:18:11.590
945
01:18:11.970 --> 01:18:14.995
is on podcast format, by the way. Yeah. It is. It is great.
946
01:18:16.094 --> 01:18:21.315
6102 said it's surprising that they are not pushing funds through all these tumbling services, to be honest.
947
01:18:22.160 --> 01:18:29.335
By the way, I would I would like to say that 6102, it that is my NIM, so it's pretty impressive that I'm typing these questions while we're live.
948
01:18:29.735 --> 01:18:33.515
949
01:18:35.975 --> 01:18:38.875
So, you know, the the report we we
950
01:18:39.300 --> 01:18:50.005
do a pretty decent job of nailing down of the 1,000 Bitcoin that were stolen, you know, doing a good job of tracking kind of I think it was 750 or so. Let's just call it 75% on the way out.
951
01:18:51.025 --> 01:18:58.165
And so 6102 is kind of alluding to, you know, it's surprising that they're not, you know, pushing funds through all of the tumbling services. And,
952
01:18:59.060 --> 01:19:01.080
you know, it kinda seems like
953
01:19:02.340 --> 01:19:08.875
if I had if I had to guess what we were sort of looking at here is it's a single entity that's using Chip Mixer and Blender
954
01:19:09.335 --> 01:19:10.715
kind of at the same time.
955
01:19:11.655 --> 01:19:30.765
And I know there are other custodial tumblers, You know, we haven't looked into them sort of significantly, but, you know, we kinda can. But I really think that chip mixer, blender, and there's maybe one other one that does the majority of volume, And they they hit both of those, you know. And if there's really only one left, you know, the kind of question is, you know, where do they go next?
956
01:19:32.250 --> 01:19:36.989
You know, we did kinda get a little bit of a hint from the report that it looks like they were kinda monitoring their liquidity.
957
01:19:37.449 --> 01:19:43.485
I kinda mentioned a while ago, chip mixer, you know, the point of chip mixer or mixers in general is to swap, you know, users' UTXOs.
958
01:19:44.425 --> 01:19:48.764
And at one point, their in their chip mixer usage, they got their own
959
01:19:49.380 --> 01:19:51.159
original deposits back
960
01:19:51.699 --> 01:19:52.760
as their payout.
961
01:19:53.460 --> 01:19:59.695
And that was when they stopped. You know, that was when they stopped using Chip Mixer, and they moved on to Wasabi or, you know, Blender in this
962
01:20:00.235 --> 01:20:00.735
case.
963
01:20:01.275 --> 01:20:11.460
964
01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:22.705
965
01:20:23.560 --> 01:20:31.020
966
01:20:31.745 --> 01:20:34.565
Mhmm. It gives you better privacy than a CoinJoin.
967
01:20:34.865 --> 01:20:42.570
It breaks the transaction graph, which is breaks the transaction graph. You get completely different Bitcoin back. Now exactly. And that can be a problem. Trust
968
01:20:43.110 --> 01:20:44.570
the the custodian.
969
01:20:44.949 --> 01:20:59.795
970
01:21:00.160 --> 01:21:15.574
okay. I'm about to send coins to a darknet market. I'm gonna deposit, you know, clean coins into the mixer, and then, you know, on the way out, I'll just send my coins to the darknet market. And then if you kind of think of a vendor who's withdrawing their coins from a a darknet market, they go to a tumbler.
971
01:21:16.835 --> 01:21:26.600
The the chances are are it's very possible that, you know, they're hoping to get clean quote unquote kind of exchange coins, let's call them, you know, k y c coins.
972
01:21:28.185 --> 01:21:32.284
And if they if the tumbler doesn't really swap kind of that
973
01:21:32.665 --> 01:21:36.445
that tainted versus clean coins with them, they might just wind up at darknetmarketcoins
974
01:21:36.905 --> 01:21:37.804
again anyway.
975
01:21:38.320 --> 01:21:38.820
So,
976
01:21:39.599 --> 01:21:46.340
you know, while it breaks the transaction graph, you know, it does have that sort of custodial risk. It sort of is like, what the point if they really can't,
977
01:21:46.725 --> 01:21:50.165
you know, enforce that in any way? And, you know, I don't think that they
978
01:21:51.205 --> 01:22:04.409
some of them don't know that. You know? It's just sort of an old peck. You know? Just sort of it worked. You know, I mean, there's a, you know, a decent amount of kind of, you know, quote unquote marketing material from some of them. But it's just
979
01:22:04.805 --> 01:22:06.485
kind of the wild west and it's like,
980
01:22:07.445 --> 01:22:10.265
just a a very old habit that just won't die.
981
01:22:17.570 --> 01:22:22.870
982
01:22:23.685 --> 01:22:29.545
You need to make manual deposits withdrawals to these entities to get a foothold. What is precision recall for your classifier?
983
01:22:30.325 --> 01:22:31.065
984
01:22:32.085 --> 01:22:32.585
So
985
01:22:35.050 --> 01:22:41.630
for the people that don't know, when we use the term cluster, what we're specifically referring to is
986
01:22:43.245 --> 01:22:44.545
the method of
987
01:22:44.845 --> 01:22:46.545
attributing multiple inputs
988
01:22:46.925 --> 01:22:48.865
to a transaction to the same entity.
989
01:22:49.500 --> 01:22:54.560
It's often called the common input ownership heuristic or the merged input heuristic.
990
01:22:55.180 --> 01:22:59.655
And the assumption is that all of the inputs to a transaction are owned by the same entity.
991
01:23:01.155 --> 01:23:03.495
And this is true most of the time,
992
01:23:04.040 --> 01:23:06.780
except when you're looking at a CoinJoin transaction.
993
01:23:07.320 --> 01:23:07.820
So,
994
01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:15.315
I think is asking, you know, how do you address kinda that, Matt? Can you put that back up? I can't see that. I got you. I got you.
995
01:23:15.855 --> 01:23:23.510
996
01:23:24.210 --> 01:23:30.230
997
01:23:31.355 --> 01:23:36.495
It first checks to make sure that a transaction doesn't have any, quote, unquote, entropy.
998
01:23:37.035 --> 01:23:38.815
It's not a CoinJoin transaction.
999
01:23:39.170 --> 01:23:41.510
If it knows it's not a CoinJoin transaction,
1000
01:23:42.130 --> 01:23:43.909
then it will assign a cluster,
1001
01:23:44.690 --> 01:23:48.469
1002
01:23:48.835 --> 01:23:53.255
Yes. Like, you have with Whirlpool, you have a 5 person transaction is happening.
1003
01:23:54.595 --> 01:24:00.120
It it is it's very clear. It's a 5 person transactions happening. They all have a 1,000,000 Sats. They all have,
1004
01:24:01.219 --> 01:24:01.719
50,000,000
1005
01:24:02.020 --> 01:24:05.239
Sats. Whatever whatever the the the actual amount is,
1006
01:24:05.614 --> 01:24:12.915
it's it's 5 turn 5 users all coming together doing a collaborative transaction. It's very obvious on chain.
1007
01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:16.700
With a custodial Tumblr, you do not have that obviousness.
1008
01:24:17.320 --> 01:24:21.260
They they can do a bunch of different things to reduce that that
1009
01:24:22.005 --> 01:24:26.405
that obviousness. I mean, obviousness is, like, a horrible word. I need to think of a better word. But,
1010
01:24:27.205 --> 01:24:29.545
it it is they like, I remember
1011
01:24:29.845 --> 01:24:30.405
I mean, because
1012
01:24:31.310 --> 01:24:34.290
I mean, the big one in my early days was Bitmixer.
1013
01:24:35.230 --> 01:24:42.045
And they had, like, you would have time delays, and they would split it up in different amounts and all these different things. So you'd have, like,
1014
01:24:42.425 --> 01:24:43.965
over the next, like, 27
1015
01:24:44.344 --> 01:24:44.844
hours,
1016
01:24:45.465 --> 01:24:57.275
and and at, like, different random increments, you would get a payment of a small fraction of that that was a regular payment, you know, and you'd get paid. And you can do all these different heuristic breaker things,
1017
01:24:58.295 --> 01:25:01.835
if you have full faith and trust in the the custodian
1018
01:25:02.375 --> 01:25:03.835
who is under regulatory
1019
01:25:04.215 --> 01:25:04.715
crosshairs.
1020
01:25:06.440 --> 01:25:14.220
So we ended up in a situation where those people operating it were in so much risk that the majority of them would rather fuck us,
1021
01:25:15.165 --> 01:25:18.625
Because if they were gonna take that much risk, they might as well make bank,
1022
01:25:20.685 --> 01:25:28.639
and they couldn't charge, like, a reasonable price to to to to put up for that risk. So so so this is where we are today. This is why,
1023
01:25:29.579 --> 01:25:31.760
centrally coordinated coin joints,
1024
01:25:33.225 --> 01:25:35.565
as we see with Whirlpool, as we see with Wasabi,
1025
01:25:36.505 --> 01:25:38.525
are so, I think, vital.
1026
01:25:39.545 --> 01:25:45.429
It's it's a middle ground. It's a it's a it's a middle ground where we have better privacy guarantees
1027
01:25:46.130 --> 01:25:48.150
than something that isn't centrally coordinated,
1028
01:25:50.475 --> 01:25:54.335
But we don't have to we reduce the risk of of a honeypot
1029
01:25:54.635 --> 01:25:59.320
and of the the the person who's in charge getting either fucked or
1030
01:25:59.800 --> 01:26:00.280
or,
1031
01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:01.579
complicit.
1032
01:26:03.320 --> 01:26:07.739
Would you would you disagree there? Like, that that's basically how we ended up in this situation currently.
1033
01:26:08.695 --> 01:26:15.195
1034
01:26:16.380 --> 01:26:17.120
kind of,
1035
01:26:17.900 --> 01:26:22.800
privacy or just basically any solution. Right? And that's a darknet market issue. Right? Escrow
1036
01:26:23.260 --> 01:26:24.080
exit scams.
1037
01:26:25.165 --> 01:26:30.945
So to avoid, you know, custodial kind of as much as possible is really, you know, really kind of important.
1038
01:26:31.965 --> 01:26:41.970
And so you sort of mentioned, you know, a very while back before I got off on my long tangent, which was something along the lines of, you know, given the choice between, you know, coin joining
1039
01:26:43.525 --> 01:26:49.224
or, you know, using a custodial tumbler, you know, kind of, you know, what are what are you better off doing?
1040
01:26:50.000 --> 01:27:03.605
You know, the custodial tumblers, they can do whatever they want with your coins. I mean and that's what I meant by Blender not really having a distinct kind of footprint or fingerprint on chain. You know, they it's sort of really pretty hard to see unless you kind of are looking at a lot of those transactions.
1041
01:27:04.225 --> 01:27:22.165
So, you know, in a coin join, you can see. But, you know, at least with kind of Whirlpool the good thing about Whirlpool is, you know, even though the transactions are obvious, they don't have any real reliable, you know, history. You don't have to worry about getting those kind of quote, unquote tainted coins back. Or let's say you deposit kind of a
1042
01:27:22.545 --> 01:27:24.725
a little bit of a a large amount. Well,
1043
01:27:25.105 --> 01:27:44.160
you know, you shouldn't do that, but, you know, the good thing about Whirlpool is you can sort of remix kind of forever and sort of trickle your way out and not have to sort of worry about kind of some of the things that even the custodial tumblers still have to worry about. So, you know, the good thing about Whirlpool is it's kinda turned a lot of that on its head because it's noncustodial.
1044
01:27:44.700 --> 01:27:48.160
You get kind of that benefit of how long you can keep your coins for remixing.
1045
01:27:48.860 --> 01:27:54.305
You know? And so I know a lot of people that don't really kind of maybe they don't quite get that. Remixing is free.
1046
01:27:54.845 --> 01:28:02.849
You just put your you pay to enter the pool. And after you've entered, you just can kind of remix until you're ready to spend. Well, I mean, it's not free. Well,
1047
01:28:03.389 --> 01:28:16.115
yeah. I mean, you have to pay the entry price. Yeah. You have to pay you have to pay the the entry price. And then after that, it's it's free. Right? And you have to pay in the time that you leave. Nothing in life is free or no? Right. So you have to pay in the time that you leave your coins mixing.
1048
01:28:17.010 --> 01:28:19.030
Let me see. Rome does Roman have a question?
1049
01:28:19.650 --> 01:28:23.429
Are there benefits to running coins through custodial template and through CoinJoin?
1050
01:28:25.105 --> 01:28:25.605
Yes.
1051
01:28:27.985 --> 01:28:32.324
I I I mean, I'm pretty vehemently against most things that are custodial.
1052
01:28:33.420 --> 01:28:35.119
Also, the problem with doing,
1053
01:28:35.659 --> 01:28:39.360
using multiple solutions is that you can kind of shoot yourself in the foot.
1054
01:28:39.739 --> 01:28:49.525
We kind of saw that with a Twitter hacker. If you don't really have a segregated wallet, even though you use a custodial Tumblr, if you then sort of combine and change Let's talk about the Twitter attacker. Yeah. The hacker.
1055
01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:54.540
1056
01:28:55.160 --> 01:28:55.660
Well
1057
01:28:56.040 --> 01:28:58.140
So, like, you can put this guy in jail, basically.
1058
01:28:58.685 --> 01:29:00.225
1059
01:29:02.525 --> 01:29:05.105
For those of you who don't remember, it was probably in June or July.
1060
01:29:07.430 --> 01:29:09.690
Twitter was hacked, and a guy stole,
1061
01:29:10.310 --> 01:29:18.795
I don't know, 15 Bitcoin or something along those lines. No. I mean, he didn't steal any Bitcoin. It was like It was donate it was donated. It was gifted to him. Right.
1062
01:29:19.335 --> 01:29:27.660
1063
01:29:28.040 --> 01:29:34.380
1064
01:29:35.215 --> 01:29:43.715
They sent some coins kinda straight to exchanges. They sent a little bit to Wasabi. But before they did any of that, they sent most of the coins to an address,
1065
01:29:44.140 --> 01:29:45.200
a single address,
1066
01:29:45.900 --> 01:29:47.920
that had a history of
1067
01:29:48.380 --> 01:29:49.680
interacting with Coinbase.
1068
01:29:50.300 --> 01:29:50.800
Done.
1069
01:29:51.315 --> 01:29:54.215
Right? Done. Right? And even if even if it's not
1070
01:29:54.595 --> 01:30:06.920
1071
01:30:07.460 --> 01:30:08.680
1072
01:30:09.335 --> 01:30:12.235
You know They said bread crumbs again. They said bread crumbs.
1073
01:30:14.455 --> 01:30:17.034
1074
01:30:17.790 --> 01:30:20.770
this was actually I mean, if I'm gonna bring us back an hour
1075
01:30:21.150 --> 01:30:23.330
to a half an hour into this show,
1076
01:30:24.030 --> 01:30:32.155
we were talking about NIMS, and I was this was my tangent I was gonna go to, and I forgot, to be honest. And I remember just now is is
1077
01:30:32.615 --> 01:30:35.035
is my biggest disappointment with Bitcoin
1078
01:30:35.370 --> 01:30:39.230
is that improper usage of Bitcoin actually doxes you as a NIM.
1079
01:30:40.410 --> 01:30:48.815
So, like, if you're a NIM and you just never interact with Bitcoin, it's easier than if you have to interact with Bitcoin. Like, their Bitcoin is a a a reasonable
1080
01:30:49.675 --> 01:30:54.975
and this is what the Monero guys will will say all day and every day if they're still here.
1081
01:30:56.820 --> 01:31:03.480
That that that is the risk. Right? The risk is that you could be completely private online. Let's say, you you're amazing. You're a fucking wizard.
1082
01:31:04.275 --> 01:31:11.335
You're ergo BTC. No one knows who the fuck you are. Bitcoin can be the risk. Bitcoin is the biggest risk for a lot of people.
1083
01:31:13.780 --> 01:31:14.659
1084
01:31:14.980 --> 01:31:15.960
evident from
1085
01:31:16.340 --> 01:31:17.480
the dotnetmarket's
1086
01:31:18.020 --> 01:31:23.305
usage as well. I mean I mean, Ergo's the expert here compared to me myself. But,
1087
01:31:24.645 --> 01:31:28.505
there there's a massively decrease in amount of usage of Bitcoin on dotnetmarkets.
1088
01:31:29.285 --> 01:31:33.540
And and, you know, privacy is gonna be or lack of privacy is gonna be the number one,
1089
01:31:34.960 --> 01:31:37.300
instigator of that, I think. Don't you agree, Ergo?
1090
01:31:38.455 --> 01:31:38.955
1091
01:31:39.415 --> 01:31:42.955
I mean, we've been seeing increased adoption of Monero and
1092
01:31:43.574 --> 01:31:45.355
decreased usage of Bitcoin.
1093
01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:55.260
The last kind of holdout for, you know, Bitcoin only darknet market is Hydra, which is kind of the one of the if not the largest,
1094
01:31:55.965 --> 01:31:59.585
and probably one of the longest running darknet markets is still voice.
1095
01:32:00.205 --> 01:32:03.344
Yeah. But the but every but other than that, everybody's everybody's.
1096
01:32:04.840 --> 01:32:12.620
1097
01:32:13.085 --> 01:32:15.825
was the largest dark net market, and you commented,
1098
01:32:17.245 --> 01:32:20.465
you're like, Hydra is the is the largest market. Guys,
1099
01:32:20.840 --> 01:32:21.500
get it together.
1100
01:32:21.960 --> 01:32:35.005
1101
01:32:35.950 --> 01:32:47.375
White House market's doing. Right. So that's, you know, that's a good counter to to that. So, you know, White House has been around for a long time. They're they're very kind of pro privacy. They're very strict. They're super strict with the PGP.
1102
01:32:47.755 --> 01:32:55.250
PGP. You know? And and, you know, and and a lot of vendors now are even starting to say where they'll, you know, they won't accept,
1103
01:32:57.150 --> 01:33:10.310
transactions without PGP, even if it's not enforced at the market level. But White House market kind of does that, you know, privacy, OPSEC. That's kind of their their shtick. That's their selling point. And if you ever make it to Dread, you could see,
1104
01:33:10.929 --> 01:33:14.869
you know, one of the admins on there. He's he's, a pretty entertaining character.
1105
01:33:17.485 --> 01:33:19.585
1106
01:33:21.005 --> 01:33:23.345
I'm guessing he thinks Hydra's the honeypot.
1107
01:33:25.480 --> 01:33:31.100
It's like Putin run because Putin's a fucking boss, and he just he's just trying to accumulate Bitcoin.
1108
01:33:40.190 --> 01:33:42.050
I think Bitcoiners don't appreciate
1109
01:33:42.350 --> 01:33:43.730
a GPG, PGP
1110
01:33:44.030 --> 01:33:44.530
enough.
1111
01:33:46.350 --> 01:33:52.885
I think it's super important. I think the majority of freaks listening probably right now. If you use PGP or GPG,
1112
01:33:53.345 --> 01:33:55.285
if you've used it in the last
1113
01:33:56.625 --> 01:33:57.125
month,
1114
01:33:58.080 --> 01:34:00.179
put a message in the in the chat.
1115
01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:07.305
1116
01:34:07.925 --> 01:34:09.225
take on it real quick.
1117
01:34:09.845 --> 01:34:13.525
Things are a little bit different in Eastern Europe and Russia. They don't have,
1118
01:34:14.260 --> 01:34:20.440
as many kind of centralized exchanges. I mean, yeah, some people are using Binance, but I think a lot of it's peer to peer.
1119
01:34:20.980 --> 01:34:22.920
And if you go to Hydra
1120
01:34:23.255 --> 01:34:35.840
and actually check out their website, they have a built in exchange. And 6102, you know, might raise a good point here and say, like, you know, it's gotta be a honeypot. But I think the way that things sort of work, and I could I could be wrong, is that they have,
1121
01:34:36.719 --> 01:34:37.219
basically,
1122
01:34:38.239 --> 01:34:45.125
it's sort of like a Venmo but tied to your phone number. Right? And so everybody has some sort of, like, throwaway phone number account,
1123
01:34:45.585 --> 01:34:56.050
and they can swap cash for Bitcoin pretty easily in more of a peer to peer way than really most of the west. And I think that's one of the last things that's that's sort of holding them together.
1124
01:34:56.425 --> 01:34:57.885
1125
01:34:59.065 --> 01:35:05.325
which no one fucking talks about, by the way, which is, like, the most cypherpunk fucking thing ever, is that they don't ship shit.
1126
01:35:06.500 --> 01:35:09.320
Everything gets left at a drop location.
1127
01:35:09.700 --> 01:35:32.850
1128
01:35:33.525 --> 01:35:40.745
1129
01:35:42.900 --> 01:35:50.680
And and they're exposing Bitcoin usage. Just like also, you're a drug user and you're a Bitcoin user. Do you do you expose both at the same time?
1130
01:35:52.505 --> 01:35:53.724
1131
01:35:54.184 --> 01:35:57.885
Yeah. Good call. So Maybe set on dead drops. Right?
1132
01:35:58.230 --> 01:36:01.210
1133
01:36:03.510 --> 01:36:06.570
They don't get enough appreciation for that. That's a really cool idea.
1134
01:36:11.025 --> 01:36:18.660
I I I look, I I think, ultimately, like, people just don't use PGP and and GPG enough, and I I think that's also really important.
1135
01:36:20.240 --> 01:36:26.015
That's purely, like, fuck private messaging. Like, if I don't care if you care about private messaging.
1136
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:41.300
And I'm I I shield it. I put it on on the fucking thing. What are you doing?
1137
01:36:41.920 --> 01:36:43.380
I I I think I think
1138
01:36:44.074 --> 01:36:50.815
you need to be able to verify your software. Right? And so, like, people need to learn how to use PGP and GPG, and they're just not doing it.
1139
01:36:52.300 --> 01:36:59.920
1140
01:37:01.420 --> 01:37:01.920
1141
01:37:02.255 --> 01:37:13.599
1142
01:37:14.060 --> 01:37:25.875
I'll be honest. It's one of the ones I keep pushing to the back because I'm I'm trying to come up with ways to do it without boring people to death. Well, my cold card guide actually shows it in line how to do it, but I also
1143
01:37:26.990 --> 01:37:28.930
1144
01:37:30.190 --> 01:37:31.810
to some other guy's guide,
1145
01:37:32.670 --> 01:37:35.570
on how to do it because use GPG was taken.
1146
01:37:37.185 --> 01:37:43.365
We got it 6102. You can stop showing this that's, you know, this guy's podcast. I like it. It's a good podcast.
1147
01:37:46.100 --> 01:37:50.200
Pass from last episode was a dope password manager. I've never heard of this.
1148
01:37:51.140 --> 01:37:54.120
I like KeePass. KeePass is solid. It's open source.
1149
01:37:54.755 --> 01:37:55.895
It's on many platforms.
1150
01:37:57.235 --> 01:38:00.695
Pardis used PaaS, and that's why he's shilling it.
1151
01:38:02.770 --> 01:38:04.289
Yeah. I mean, do you guys have,
1152
01:38:04.690 --> 01:38:13.235
so we're we're about an hour and 40 minutes in here. I lied to both myself and the freaks and said that I was gonna try and target an hour for the the second time in a row.
1153
01:38:14.175 --> 01:38:17.475
I don't know how many more times I can pass on this lie,
1154
01:38:18.095 --> 01:38:24.280
until it's gonna always be over an hour. Because I honestly this is a great conversation. I don't think we can shorten it.
1155
01:38:25.539 --> 01:38:27.719
Verify Electrum wallet with signature.
1156
01:38:28.340 --> 01:38:30.679
Yeah. You can do that. You should do that.
1157
01:38:32.125 --> 01:38:38.305
I have the guide for how to do that with with the Spectre and cold card, but I don't have it for Electrum.
1158
01:38:42.090 --> 01:38:50.355
Do you guys have things you wanna talk about? You have a you have a topic you wanted to to call me out on as a public Bitcoin figure who has
1159
01:38:50.895 --> 01:38:56.915
been a LARPer in different situations or whatnot? You could rest you know, speak now or I'm gonna hold your peace.
1160
01:38:57.250 --> 01:38:59.490
1161
01:39:00.370 --> 01:39:01.990
you said that you wanted to talk about,
1162
01:39:02.770 --> 01:39:07.235
notes, so I'll open it up to the chat. Yeah. Let's see if I know that you want some question on notes.
1163
01:39:08.195 --> 01:39:12.534
Just while waiting for some questions to come through and bring up some problems. Running a node
1164
01:39:12.915 --> 01:39:19.710
1165
01:39:20.490 --> 01:39:24.555
1166
01:39:25.095 --> 01:39:28.235
1167
01:39:30.055 --> 01:39:31.755
247 dedicated nodes.
1168
01:39:32.090 --> 01:39:35.310
You have lightning. You have you have Whirlpool.
1169
01:39:35.770 --> 01:39:36.510
You know?
1170
01:39:37.370 --> 01:39:38.510
1171
01:39:39.345 --> 01:39:43.285
1172
01:39:45.025 --> 01:39:45.525
I,
1173
01:39:46.610 --> 01:39:55.590
I mean, they shouldn't have their their their their first generation node was just, like, miserable. The second one, by the time I got it, I just turned it into a Ronin when it came.
1174
01:39:56.985 --> 01:40:00.285
So so I have, like, 6 nodes sitting right in front of me.
1175
01:40:01.065 --> 01:40:06.210
I think, ultimately, at the end of the day, most people can just use a Bitcoin Core Prune node with Spectre
1176
01:40:06.750 --> 01:40:09.489
and a cold card. And then from there, they can
1177
01:40:09.790 --> 01:40:11.170
they can move to other,
1178
01:40:11.949 --> 01:40:15.915
you know, signers. They can add signers to the to the library.
1179
01:40:16.295 --> 01:40:26.050
And I think you have a separate run Ronin dojo or some kind of dojo node that powers your samurai stack, and then, like, that's your coin joint. So you come in
1180
01:40:26.430 --> 01:40:26.930
through
1181
01:40:27.710 --> 01:40:29.489
you're already KYC'd salary.
1182
01:40:29.935 --> 01:40:34.675
You're already getting paid KYC through salary. We went over this in 15 minutes in the beginning,
1183
01:40:36.015 --> 01:40:41.800
and you go through your KYC fucking bullshit stacking stats, whatever, you know, bullshit,
1184
01:40:42.340 --> 01:40:43.239
auto DCA,
1185
01:40:43.940 --> 01:40:48.565
and then it comes in and it goes right through Whirlpool, and then it goes into Spectre,
1186
01:40:50.625 --> 01:40:51.685
Spectre plus
1187
01:40:52.385 --> 01:40:59.800
core plus whatever signers you choose. In the beginning, I think Coldcard is the best one to choose. And my guide for that is that we run bitcoin.com.
1188
01:41:04.655 --> 01:41:06.595
1189
01:41:07.055 --> 01:41:08.655
tied into what you just said was,
1190
01:41:09.775 --> 01:41:13.540
I forget who asked it, but they they they asked the question of, do do we,
1191
01:41:14.160 --> 01:41:15.860
leave a 100% of our sats,
1192
01:41:16.720 --> 01:41:17.860
running through Whirlpool?
1193
01:41:19.280 --> 01:41:20.500
Yeah. What do we do there?
1194
01:41:21.395 --> 01:41:24.455
For me personally, yes. Conjuring absolutely everything.
1195
01:41:26.515 --> 01:41:37.460
I'm gonna get some shit from the samurai guys, but I do say from our Yeah. Well, I was just about to say I'm gonna get some shit from the samurai guys, but I do siphon off some into cold storage. Oh. I've I've got Shamrock on the cover. But I'm curious.
1196
01:41:38.405 --> 01:41:38.905
But,
1197
01:41:40.005 --> 01:41:46.005
I do keep a a a a predetermined level in there that I used to spend in Yeah. We know. I think but but
1198
01:41:46.970 --> 01:42:05.010
1199
01:42:06.190 --> 01:42:15.735
1200
01:42:16.355 --> 01:42:18.775
you keep it all in in in Whirlpool
1201
01:42:19.315 --> 01:42:21.015
forever until you spend it.
1202
01:42:21.360 --> 01:42:24.180
If we're talking about perfect security, you never go into Whirlpool.
1203
01:42:25.040 --> 01:42:31.445
Perfect security. We're talking about prior prioritizing security, you never go into Whirlpool. You just go straight into some kind
1204
01:42:31.905 --> 01:42:34.405
of air gapped, cold type of situation.
1205
01:42:35.265 --> 01:42:40.070
But, really, the ideal situation for most people is probably, like, a middle ish ground.
1206
01:42:41.410 --> 01:42:52.355
1207
01:42:52.735 --> 01:43:05.935
Right. You know, especially if you've got a dedicated device that's got good hygiene, right, like a Raspberry Pi that's only ever, you know, had Ronin Dojo installed or whatever. All that Bitcoin q and a, he's the node guy. You know, talk about that a little bit more.
1208
01:43:06.315 --> 01:43:08.255
But, you know, that's that's definitely reasonable.
1209
01:43:11.275 --> 01:43:16.460
1210
01:43:17.739 --> 01:43:33.350
which is good. You know, people wanna increase their privacy. Like, right. I wanna I wanna, whirlpool all of my stats. I'm like, okay. Great. Then, like, right. I wanna go and send it all to my call card and it's all to my ledger. And I'm just like, woah. Hold on. Hold on. So this is what this is where a lot of people trip themselves up is that, you know, they'll they'll send the whole statue kit through,
1211
01:43:33.830 --> 01:43:44.865
through Whirlpool, get some great forward looking privacy. You know, they might have bought on Coinbase or something like that, but they've vanished through Whirlpool. They've they've got a good level. They've brought these deterministic links. You know, they they've kind of,
1212
01:43:46.530 --> 01:43:51.830
the UTXO has been baptized again. They've got a fresh start. And then they go and send it all to,
1213
01:43:52.210 --> 01:43:59.735
to a ledger that's got no coin control because they're using it with a a wallet software that doesn't allow them to to manage those ETF tools effectively.
1214
01:44:00.115 --> 01:44:04.480
So they might sit there for 5 years, you know, gain a load of value, great stuff.
1215
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:15.585
And then they come to spend it again, and they just merge all that together to send it back to an exchange somewhere. And and effectively, all they've done is just completely wasted a load of sats in Whirlpool.
1216
01:44:15.965 --> 01:44:19.505
Because by merging those GTXOs together again, you know, they're showing
1217
01:44:19.805 --> 01:44:20.705
common ownership,
1218
01:44:21.550 --> 01:44:22.830
which is something that,
1219
01:44:24.190 --> 01:44:26.290
chain spies like Ergo look for.
1220
01:44:26.830 --> 01:44:27.330
And
1221
01:44:27.870 --> 01:44:31.415
so I I just, urge people listening to this to be
1222
01:44:31.875 --> 01:44:34.695
less hasty when trying to throw everything through Whirlpool
1223
01:44:34.995 --> 01:44:41.000
and then get it off there because it's a hot wallet as fast as possible. You know? Well, let's jump into Nuance a little bit.
1224
01:44:43.219 --> 01:44:44.679
1225
01:44:45.595 --> 01:44:49.295
I I I I wanna so so when we come out when we come out of Whirlpool,
1226
01:44:50.395 --> 01:44:54.575
samurai intentionally tries to protect yours protect you from yourself.
1227
01:44:55.280 --> 01:44:59.460
So if if you spend less if you spend less than half
1228
01:45:00.080 --> 01:45:05.855
of your your post Whirlpool stash, so you've gone through coin join, you've gone through this coordinated coin join round.
1229
01:45:06.555 --> 01:45:11.215
Presumably, you've hopefully stayed in there for a little bit, so there's remix potential.
1230
01:45:11.700 --> 01:45:16.440
Even if you don't remix, the fact that other participants in your first mix remix
1231
01:45:16.980 --> 01:45:19.255
kind of counts for yourself as well.
1232
01:45:20.614 --> 01:45:22.074
So then you go to spend.
1233
01:45:22.534 --> 01:45:36.315
If you spend less than half, it simulates a fake coin join. So it it it it simulates it simulates a real coin join, not a fake coin join. It simulates a real coin join that you're with another person, and you guys are both contributing
1234
01:45:36.775 --> 01:45:44.395
outputs for it. And then you can also do a fucking real coin join with another person that doesn't have samurai involved at all,
1235
01:45:45.350 --> 01:45:51.290
that is, like, a real 2 person coin join or potentially a 3 person coin join if the 2 of you pay a 3rd person.
1236
01:45:54.445 --> 01:46:04.830
So that's awesome. Yeah. I I I don't know where I'm going with this. My my point is my point is is you really have to care about what happens after that coin joint. The the the
1237
01:46:05.605 --> 01:46:08.905
you know, like, Whirlpool doesn't just automatically protect you.
1238
01:46:09.925 --> 01:46:13.305
Wasabi doesn't automatically protect you on steroids.
1239
01:46:14.480 --> 01:46:16.099
You you you have to
1240
01:46:16.960 --> 01:46:20.260
once you do this process, you have to deal with
1241
01:46:20.639 --> 01:46:21.699
what are the repercussions
1242
01:46:22.079 --> 01:46:23.300
of my next step.
1243
01:46:24.705 --> 01:46:29.125
What am I giving up? What am I exposing about myself on the next step?
1244
01:46:29.985 --> 01:46:40.980
And and this goes back to what I said earlier, which is is is the the biggest issue I have as a as someone who's trying to educate people on Bitcoin using Bitcoin in a more self sovereign way is that,
1245
01:46:42.575 --> 01:46:44.594
there's so many ways you can just fuck yourself.
1246
01:46:46.815 --> 01:46:55.240
1247
01:46:55.860 --> 01:47:00.680
over. You know, if you try and spend your whole wallet balance after you've you've gone through a whirlpool,
1248
01:47:01.585 --> 01:47:06.565
you're gonna get a hefty warning to say, you know, this is this is a bad idea.
1249
01:47:07.265 --> 01:47:08.625
And like you touched on,
1250
01:47:09.745 --> 01:47:10.645
if you'd spend
1251
01:47:11.010 --> 01:47:14.210
just under half your balance, as a general rule of thumb, it'll trigger that,
1252
01:47:14.930 --> 01:47:16.310
simulated coin joint,
1253
01:47:16.770 --> 01:47:17.590
which is
1254
01:47:18.130 --> 01:47:19.990
the wallet will always try and,
1255
01:47:21.975 --> 01:47:23.595
trigger that type of spend
1256
01:47:24.695 --> 01:47:29.835
by default. You know, it's on by default as long as you meet those spending conditions of less than half
1257
01:47:30.889 --> 01:47:31.769
half of your,
1258
01:47:32.250 --> 01:47:33.070
wallet balance.
1259
01:47:33.449 --> 01:47:34.829
That is the default transaction.
1260
01:47:35.210 --> 01:47:39.869
So it's it's it's look at it as guide rails. You know, it's built to
1261
01:47:40.235 --> 01:47:40.735
to,
1262
01:47:41.275 --> 01:47:43.055
stop you from fucking yourself over.
1263
01:47:43.915 --> 01:47:46.015
So just just tying that back to
1264
01:47:47.170 --> 01:47:50.789
the the sending everything back to cold storage. You know, appreciate,
1265
01:47:53.090 --> 01:47:58.535
the the best option for for privacy is to leave it remixed in Whirlpool. Completely agree.
1266
01:47:59.075 --> 01:48:07.630
You know, the the nothing's gonna beat that because you your your sort of your privacy is only growing when you get remixes and when your peers get remixes, which is fantastic.
1267
01:48:08.329 --> 01:48:11.715
But there is absolutely gonna be people that haven't got that,
1268
01:48:12.655 --> 01:48:16.575
risk tolerance to say, I don't want any of my sats on a hot wallet.
1269
01:48:17.215 --> 01:48:22.850
I don't want any of my keys online. I just I just wanna get some privacy and then send it all to cold storage.
1270
01:48:23.389 --> 01:48:25.650
So stonewall by default, absolutely.
1271
01:48:27.925 --> 01:48:29.865
The samurai guys have now released,
1272
01:48:30.245 --> 01:48:30.745
Soroban,
1273
01:48:32.085 --> 01:48:33.625
massive, massive Soroban
1274
01:48:34.005 --> 01:48:34.505
maximalist,
1275
01:48:35.685 --> 01:48:37.545
which is a a an encrypted
1276
01:48:38.470 --> 01:48:40.250
tool based communication layer
1277
01:48:40.710 --> 01:48:43.130
that, allows you to coordinate these
1278
01:48:43.990 --> 01:48:46.970
2 person coin joints called Stonewall X Twos
1279
01:48:47.645 --> 01:48:49.185
with anybody on the planet,
1280
01:48:49.725 --> 01:48:51.025
in a matter of seconds.
1281
01:48:51.965 --> 01:48:57.550
The the guys who got a Telegram group where you can sort of coordinate these and find a a mixed partner.
1282
01:48:58.570 --> 01:49:01.070
And it's all coordinated within within the app.
1283
01:49:01.690 --> 01:49:12.130
And you can you can conduct these spends, which completely screw a chain analysis, which I'm sure Hugo can touch a bit more on. But these spends just completely skew that transaction graph.
1284
01:49:13.170 --> 01:49:17.350
So it's another great option to to sort of preserve your privacy when you're leaving the pool.
1285
01:49:17.810 --> 01:49:20.070
Whether you're whether it's a spend to a merchant,
1286
01:49:20.525 --> 01:49:22.465
or you spend to see your own cold storage,
1287
01:49:23.005 --> 01:49:25.745
always look to to do a Stonewall or Stonewall X2,
1288
01:49:26.285 --> 01:49:27.665
wherever possible, really.
1289
01:49:28.285 --> 01:49:29.185
1290
01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:32.180
both Riccardo Masutti,
1291
01:49:33.360 --> 01:49:36.580
and Typerboli are they're basically asking the same thing,
1292
01:49:37.375 --> 01:49:40.914
and I think this is a pretty important question that gets asked all the time.
1293
01:49:43.295 --> 01:49:56.685
Besides usability, let's say you you you figure out how to use join market, and you you get it working, and you're working with your own node. What is the negative? What is the negative of of using join market versus something like Whirlpool?
1294
01:50:00.640 --> 01:50:06.695
1295
01:50:07.255 --> 01:50:10.395
Keep it simple. Bitcoin did a a very thorough
1296
01:50:12.135 --> 01:50:15.514
guide for joint market the other day, which I've gone through a couple of times.
1297
01:50:16.620 --> 01:50:17.360
And I think
1298
01:50:17.740 --> 01:50:18.400
it it's,
1299
01:50:19.740 --> 01:50:23.275
obviously, there's no centralized coordinator. It's entirely peer to peer,
1300
01:50:24.074 --> 01:50:24.975
but it's,
1301
01:50:25.755 --> 01:50:28.415
1302
01:50:29.275 --> 01:50:34.260
1303
01:50:36.560 --> 01:50:37.940
1304
01:50:39.815 --> 01:50:44.955
You're gonna make me do it, or you're gonna do it? No. No. It it's fine. I'm not muted. Right? Yeah. No.
1305
01:50:45.815 --> 01:50:52.450
1306
01:50:53.470 --> 01:50:54.290
coin join,
1307
01:50:54.750 --> 01:50:59.455
and they got a lot of things right. They did, you know, they did their mixed depth kinda scheme,
1308
01:51:00.075 --> 01:51:08.860
which, for the people that don't know, is sort of just how many, you know, mixes have your coins been through. And each of your separate kind of mix depths,
1309
01:51:09.480 --> 01:51:11.580
you know, are kept segregated,
1310
01:51:12.280 --> 01:51:16.140
kind of the segregated account model. So, like, you know, that foot gun thing where
1311
01:51:16.455 --> 01:51:18.795
the select all button, you know, people
1312
01:51:19.255 --> 01:51:28.110
select their unmixed change and spend it with their mixed coins. That happens with Wasabi. That doesn't happen with JoinMarket, you know, and they saw this first. They did it first in, whatever, 2015, 2016.
1313
01:51:28.570 --> 01:51:33.470
The other kind of thing that's neat about JoinMarket is it's sort of, like, dynamic in its kind of own way.
1314
01:51:34.545 --> 01:51:39.125
You know, the I think the joint market devs, they they call it, fixed denominations
1315
01:51:39.505 --> 01:51:54.385
are are bad, and they use that to refer to Wasabi and kind of Whirlpool. But what they mean is that there is no fixed up denomination for joint market and that the sort of the market theory is, you know, okay. The users come together. They they pick a denomination. They agree to do the mix,
1316
01:51:54.845 --> 01:51:59.345
whatever the denomination is. So it's not quite as static as that sort of, you know,
1317
01:51:59.869 --> 01:52:04.050
100% entropy coin join that kind of, you know, Whirlpool has.
1318
01:52:04.750 --> 01:52:09.855
But it also has the downside of having the unmixed change that sort of just follows users along
1319
01:52:10.235 --> 01:52:11.855
and can cause problems.
1320
01:52:12.875 --> 01:52:14.335
And we talked about this in
1321
01:52:14.875 --> 01:52:18.255
the toxic recall report that we did, you know, several months ago
1322
01:52:19.730 --> 01:52:23.110
about, you know, a user who allegedly had their coin stolen.
1323
01:52:23.410 --> 01:52:26.390
They were mixed through JoinMarket and, you know, well,
1324
01:52:27.125 --> 01:52:29.864
we were able to use the the unmixed change to basically
1325
01:52:30.245 --> 01:52:30.745
isolate
1326
01:52:31.125 --> 01:52:34.745
their their mixed outputs and follow them through the mixer.
1327
01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:40.460
So that's one of the things that I don't like about joint market is that it's it's less than,
1328
01:52:40.840 --> 01:52:44.780
100% entropy. It's not a true zero link kind of implementation,
1329
01:52:45.665 --> 01:52:52.405
because I think that sort of opens up a lot of things. So that's kind of my take on sort of the on chain side and, you know, Bitcoin Q and A talked about kind of the
1330
01:52:52.980 --> 01:52:57.800
usability issues. But I I do think that, you know, those guys did a lot of good work early on.
1331
01:53:00.715 --> 01:53:01.775
1332
01:53:02.795 --> 01:53:32.260
1333
01:53:33.005 --> 01:53:37.665
It ruins everyone's mix. Ruins everyone's mix. So it it kinda cuts both ways.
1334
01:53:39.245 --> 01:53:40.705
1335
01:53:41.690 --> 01:53:42.750
should just never
1336
01:53:43.210 --> 01:53:47.790
get any they just assume they're getting no privacy, right, in a joint market model?
1337
01:53:48.705 --> 01:53:55.125
I wouldn't say no. I mean, it's not no privacy. Assume I'm I'm saying they should assume no privacy as as an extreme.
1338
01:53:55.610 --> 01:53:58.990
Right? Like, you should assume an extreme so that you're safe.
1339
01:53:59.370 --> 01:54:03.645
1340
01:54:04.525 --> 01:54:12.065
Right? And it's like it's comes back to that sort of thing that we sort of started off at the beginning when you say, like, perfect privacy or zero privacy, and it's
1341
01:54:12.685 --> 01:54:13.585
it's not
1342
01:54:14.510 --> 01:54:23.170
on or off. It's not yes or no. It's privacy against who or whom, privacy against whom, and and, you know, how much privacy against whom.
1343
01:54:23.605 --> 01:54:25.945
So, you know, it's it's a whole spectrum. So,
1344
01:54:27.205 --> 01:54:28.324
let me see what else.
1345
01:54:29.765 --> 01:54:30.425
6102 is asking,
1346
01:54:30.800 --> 01:54:33.620
might be worth talking about the differences between unmixed change,
1347
01:54:34.320 --> 01:54:35.540
dry market and Wasabi.
1348
01:54:36.880 --> 01:54:43.045
Well, I mean, the the change is it's a very similar process, but the difference is that Wasabi has the added
1349
01:54:43.985 --> 01:54:46.885
negative of the address reuse, which when
1350
01:54:47.505 --> 01:54:48.725
a mixed output
1351
01:54:49.200 --> 01:54:50.180
pays to an address
1352
01:54:50.880 --> 01:54:53.780
and then an unmixed output pays to that same address,
1353
01:54:54.240 --> 01:55:00.804
that at you know, that mixed output is now deanonymized and whatever potential, you know, follow-up spends are deanonymized along with it.
1354
01:55:01.824 --> 01:55:07.925
And that's something that just hasn't been fixed for whatever reason. Well, so so so let's unpack this,
1355
01:55:09.080 --> 01:55:11.900
1356
01:55:12.600 --> 01:55:14.460
because we talk about shit like this,
1357
01:55:14.840 --> 01:55:19.875
when other people, like, somehow, like, biggest story of 2020, no one talks about it.
1358
01:55:21.655 --> 01:55:22.155
The
1359
01:55:23.295 --> 01:55:24.114
they had
1360
01:55:24.574 --> 01:55:25.074
bad
1361
01:55:25.450 --> 01:55:26.990
address use first,
1362
01:55:28.170 --> 01:55:30.590
and that was the fixed fee address.
1363
01:55:31.290 --> 01:55:42.285
Like, literally, every single wasabi mix, wasabi coin join. We try not to talk I I don't I don't want to call it mix. I wanna call it coin join. Every single wasabi coin join was,
1364
01:55:43.620 --> 01:55:45.240
paying to the same fee address,
1365
01:55:45.780 --> 01:55:47.960
so they were all tainted by the same fee address.
1366
01:55:48.580 --> 01:55:50.120
And we saw a lot of exchanges
1367
01:55:50.725 --> 01:55:54.025
have issues with that because it was, like, very right in their face.
1368
01:55:55.605 --> 01:55:56.905
People say CoinJoin
1369
01:55:57.364 --> 01:55:58.745
has issues at exchanges.
1370
01:55:59.285 --> 01:56:02.170
No. We've only had issues with
1371
01:56:04.070 --> 01:56:04.730
with Wasabi,
1372
01:56:06.790 --> 01:56:07.290
fee
1373
01:56:08.585 --> 01:56:08.905
reuse.
1374
01:56:10.505 --> 01:56:14.925
Since then, they've also had just fee reuse, like,
1375
01:56:16.469 --> 01:56:22.809
address reuse within mixes constantly, not the fee. The fee so they've switched it. So now
1376
01:56:23.295 --> 01:56:29.235
the fee is an x pub, so we're we're good on that. So the fee is always paid to a different address.
1377
01:56:31.010 --> 01:56:35.750
But but but within the mix within the fucking mix within the coin join,
1378
01:56:36.210 --> 01:56:36.950
we have
1379
01:56:38.290 --> 01:56:40.470
address paying to the same address. Right?
1380
01:56:41.715 --> 01:56:52.890
1381
01:56:53.850 --> 01:56:59.385
on the input side, we have one address, and on the output side, we also have that same address.
1382
01:56:59.685 --> 01:57:01.465
Okay? So that's, you know,
1383
01:57:01.844 --> 01:57:10.270
obviously, the input address is owned by the output address. That's the same person. And that could be a mixed output. That could be an unmixed output. That could be a change output.
1384
01:57:10.570 --> 01:57:12.110
That could be, you know, both.
1385
01:57:12.465 --> 01:57:21.844
And then the other address reuse that I mentioned a little while ago is the one that's not symmetric where it's reused on both sides, the input and the output side.
1386
01:57:22.580 --> 01:57:23.240
It's when
1387
01:57:23.940 --> 01:57:24.440
a
1388
01:57:25.220 --> 01:57:37.875
mixed output is paid to an address. It doesn't you know, just any address, and that a change output is paid to that same address or vice versa. Basically, you know, a mixed output and a change output go to the same address. And so
1389
01:57:38.310 --> 01:57:40.090
if that mixed output is spent,
1390
01:57:40.710 --> 01:57:42.410
it's technically deanonymized.
1391
01:57:43.030 --> 01:57:52.014
Right? Or any outputs that are also spent along with that that mixed output, You know, it's de anonymized. So they got we got rid of the the static fee address,
1392
01:57:52.715 --> 01:57:53.855
but the
1393
01:57:54.554 --> 01:57:56.940
systemic address for use was, you know
1394
01:57:57.240 --> 01:57:59.420
1395
01:58:01.800 --> 01:58:07.465
Ricardo is saying, Wasabi coin joins are easily identifiable in the blockchain without the fixed address. Yes.
1396
01:58:08.324 --> 01:58:08.824
But
1397
01:58:09.764 --> 01:58:10.824
when when
1398
01:58:11.204 --> 01:58:11.704
the
1399
01:58:12.200 --> 01:58:13.400
the coin
1400
01:58:13.880 --> 01:58:18.620
the the fucking chain analysis, the chain surveillance companies are identifying
1401
01:58:19.000 --> 01:58:20.700
transactions based on proximity,
1402
01:58:21.705 --> 01:58:33.389
It is it is very obvious to them that one scam transaction went into a wasabi mix, and then it connected to that fee address. So you're throwing it right in their face, and you're making them have to fucking deal with it.
1403
01:58:33.770 --> 01:58:37.070
The thing is is is the majority of companies,
1404
01:58:37.375 --> 01:58:42.594
if it's not right in their face, if they're not, like, completely it's not completely obvious to them,
1405
01:58:43.455 --> 01:58:45.635
if it's just a tiny little bit
1406
01:58:46.255 --> 01:58:46.755
hidden,
1407
01:58:47.220 --> 01:58:53.880
they just won't care about it. And that's the difference. The the the difference is that the Wasabi fixed fee address is basically,
1408
01:58:54.315 --> 01:58:59.455
let's just shove it into the face of every single compliance bro at every single fucking exchange
1409
01:59:00.074 --> 01:59:11.610
and, like, expect them not to fucking do something about it. Of course, they're gonna do something about it. If you, like, kinda hide it a little bit, they're less likely to fucking do something about it. That's that's the real result. That's the truth.
1410
01:59:13.725 --> 01:59:14.865
On that note,
1411
01:59:15.405 --> 01:59:15.905
separately,
1412
01:59:17.485 --> 01:59:20.469
the coordinator for Wasabi is is allowing
1413
01:59:20.929 --> 01:59:22.550
systemic address reuse,
1414
01:59:23.810 --> 01:59:32.155
which reduces the anonymity set, and you're paying on a per basis on the anonymity set. So if it's not the full anonymity set, it's still not
1415
01:59:32.534 --> 01:59:35.114
that huge of an issue, but it's it is an issue.
1416
01:59:37.000 --> 01:59:37.739
And then
1417
01:59:38.679 --> 01:59:41.880
on on top of I guess, on on on top of all of that
1418
01:59:47.065 --> 01:59:48.125
Yeah. I I
1419
01:59:48.905 --> 01:59:55.885
I I mean, on top of all of that, like, I think you should just really just not be depositing into KYC institutions. Like, you should not be considering that.
1420
01:59:56.190 --> 01:59:56.929
And then
1421
01:59:57.309 --> 02:00:02.190
last but not least, the as far as we're concerned, do we agree that joint market
1422
02:00:02.750 --> 02:00:06.135
if if if you're not expecting privacy as a maker
1423
02:00:06.695 --> 02:00:11.595
like, if you're a taker, you're getting decent privacy. Like, you're getting pretty good privacy as a taker.
1424
02:00:14.650 --> 02:00:23.595
1425
02:00:25.295 --> 02:00:25.795
But,
1426
02:00:26.375 --> 02:00:30.600
you know, kind of the thing that I like about Whirlpool and I keep sort of coming back to is that,
1427
02:00:31.240 --> 02:00:35.500
you know, Whirlpool, I just sort of look at it as kind of like a wall.
1428
02:00:36.440 --> 02:00:38.940
And on one side, all your premixed coins,
1429
02:00:39.675 --> 02:00:44.015
wall could be as long as it needs to be as long as you remix. And then on the other side,
1430
02:00:44.315 --> 02:00:47.775
you kind of get to spend kind of freely. And
1431
02:00:48.770 --> 02:00:54.949
without these sort of new long deterministic kind of peel chains, which and you talked about stonewalls before,
1432
02:00:55.809 --> 02:01:01.295
which is, you know, either a simulated 2 person coin joiner, in this case, a 2 person coin joiner.
1433
02:01:01.595 --> 02:01:03.615
So you can then, you know,
1434
02:01:03.989 --> 02:01:08.489
transition through the mixing process and spend however much you need to spend without
1435
02:01:09.510 --> 02:01:10.010
any
1436
02:01:10.310 --> 02:01:18.954
of the other negatives that sort of affect kind of the mixing process. And that's sort of why I like you know, and why I've sort of gravitated sort of towards samurai is that it's
1437
02:01:19.255 --> 02:01:21.835
sort of meant to be spent and the other ones
1438
02:01:22.590 --> 02:01:24.290
not kind of so much.
1439
02:01:24.830 --> 02:01:36.815
You know, so and if you're looking to kind of come back to the sort of full circle, you know, I wanna be able to spend my Bitcoin and, you know, avoid censorship resistance and participate in kind of a, you know, a free speech,
1440
02:01:37.594 --> 02:01:40.094
you know, voluntary economy. I mean,
1441
02:01:41.610 --> 02:01:43.550
there's nothing better at this point.
1442
02:01:53.085 --> 02:01:58.864
1443
02:02:02.210 --> 02:02:03.750
He doesn't wanna be on the record.
1444
02:02:04.929 --> 02:02:05.179
I
1445
02:02:06.845 --> 02:02:08.865
1446
02:02:09.565 --> 02:02:12.225
1447
02:02:13.485 --> 02:02:14.625
vocal concerns.
1448
02:02:17.210 --> 02:02:21.390
On Musa by use or on I don't know. Do you have anything for us?
1449
02:02:22.010 --> 02:02:27.915
1450
02:02:28.635 --> 02:02:32.335
1451
02:02:32.690 --> 02:02:33.830
join market versus,
1452
02:02:35.090 --> 02:02:39.430
Whirlpool. Right? Like, why are why are we using Whirlpool versus join market?
1453
02:02:40.245 --> 02:02:45.465
1454
02:02:45.925 --> 02:02:49.449
1455
02:02:50.469 --> 02:02:51.050
1456
02:02:51.590 --> 02:03:03.065
well, the thing I like about Whirlpool, right, is you've got 3 tiers. You you can start dead easy. You could just get an Android phone, download Samura wallet, and start mixing in in a matter of minutes.
1457
02:03:03.400 --> 02:03:12.860
1458
02:03:14.485 --> 02:03:20.425
Like, it's difficult that I have to work people through it in terms especially if I want them to use their own Dojo,
1459
02:03:21.080 --> 02:03:25.900
which I think everyone should use their own Dojo. Like, that's difficult for me, but it's still,
1460
02:03:26.360 --> 02:03:38.454
like, a 1000000 times easier than working them through fucking join market. What's the pain point there? What's the hard part for people? Well, I mean, the hardest part is fucking Dojo. But then, also, just, like,
1461
02:03:39.050 --> 02:03:39.550
conceptualizing
1462
02:03:40.010 --> 02:03:40.510
shit.
1463
02:03:42.250 --> 02:03:43.870
Right? Like, you have to conceptualize
1464
02:03:47.034 --> 02:03:49.215
the whole the whole process involves,
1465
02:03:49.915 --> 02:03:50.735
like, logical
1466
02:03:51.114 --> 02:03:52.735
decision making. Right?
1467
02:03:54.040 --> 02:04:00.540
Like, using Bitcoin privately were like, it involves, like, personal responsibility and, like, actually
1468
02:04:01.080 --> 02:04:02.620
making decisions for yourself.
1469
02:04:05.125 --> 02:04:13.989
1470
02:04:14.290 --> 02:04:19.429
It's the easiest way to get started, and it's the hardest way to fuck yourself over. I don't think guys.
1471
02:04:20.130 --> 02:04:20.630
1472
02:04:20.995 --> 02:04:22.375
1473
02:04:23.395 --> 02:04:28.935
1474
02:04:29.555 --> 02:04:30.055
Okay?
1475
02:04:30.880 --> 02:04:34.340
So they're no longer bothering us. They only came in for the beginning part.
1476
02:04:35.520 --> 02:04:43.165
6102 is saying the fees are the hardest part. I don't think the fees are the hardest part. I think it's very difficult. I think you have to conceptualize. Like, you have to actually,
1477
02:04:44.185 --> 02:04:49.700
like, process privacy as as a goal and, like, try and make it happen. That's the difficult part.
1478
02:04:52.240 --> 02:04:56.324
1479
02:04:56.784 --> 02:04:58.724
a Whirlpool fee, you know,
1480
02:04:59.344 --> 02:04:59.844
calculator,
1481
02:05:00.224 --> 02:05:05.190
proximator, estimator, however you wanna call it. And people should definitely check that out because,
1482
02:05:06.130 --> 02:05:06.630
it's
1483
02:05:07.090 --> 02:05:18.055
pretty simple. You put in the number of inputs that you you're gonna have, the number of outputs you're gonna have, and you get an estimate for what the fee is gonna be. I think that people have a hard time with the flat fee concept.
1484
02:05:19.315 --> 02:05:21.735
And and, you know, even some of the
1485
02:05:22.100 --> 02:05:22.600
everyone
1486
02:05:22.980 --> 02:05:24.120
misunderstands the fees,
1487
02:05:24.660 --> 02:05:27.320
if you mix 1 Bitcoin and the 0.001
1488
02:05:28.820 --> 02:05:29.320
pool,
1489
02:05:30.005 --> 02:05:31.625
you only pay 0.005
1490
02:05:34.485 --> 02:05:39.100
in coordinator fees. If you mix 10 Bitcoin and the 0.001
1491
02:05:39.880 --> 02:05:42.460
pool, you still pay the same amount, 0.005.
1492
02:05:43.240 --> 02:05:45.660
And that's the thing that I think a lot of people mix is that
1493
02:05:46.255 --> 02:05:52.835
each deposit, you pay the same amount no matter how much the deposit is and deposits the wrong term. But,
1494
02:05:53.695 --> 02:05:54.275
you know,
1495
02:05:54.969 --> 02:05:58.429
I I know some people have a hard time with that. I think people have
1496
02:05:58.890 --> 02:06:11.415
more of a hard time with, you know we've sort of swung in kind of the two directions. I think it's better the way that things have been going recently. People use what daddy Warbits just said. What? What did he say? This is the problem. Nailed it.
1497
02:06:12.280 --> 02:06:16.219
1498
02:06:18.895 --> 02:06:28.970
1499
02:06:34.305 --> 02:06:47.590
1500
02:06:48.210 --> 02:06:51.590
is that, you know, in high fee environments, they're gonna get massively stung
1501
02:06:52.155 --> 02:06:52.635
with,
1502
02:06:54.074 --> 02:07:04.930
with a hell of a lot of minor fees because they're they're dividing that one Bitcoin into a absolute shit ton of of smaller UTXOs, which is what they've done. You know, they've told the app to do it. It's not a fault with the protocol or anything like that.
1503
02:07:05.310 --> 02:07:10.865
But it it it's a fact of the matter is that people don't consider incentive is not fees on top.
1504
02:07:12.205 --> 02:07:12.705
1505
02:07:13.245 --> 02:07:25.200
I mean, I don't know if it's broken, but it the incentive is what the incentive is. I mean, it's it's it's way more expensive to to do the 50,000,000 sat pool than if you did the same exact amount over to the
1506
02:07:25.585 --> 02:07:30.325
1507
02:07:30.865 --> 02:07:51.114
you know, the fee model, they would do their own calculation, and they would say, oh, this one is obviously cheaper. You know? They just have to have that kind of knowledge. But at the same time, you can do your own sort of heuristic. And I just pick I'm just gonna pick a number. I'm gonna say, if you have more than 20 if you're gonna get more than 20 outputs, then you should go to the next pool up.
1508
02:07:51.735 --> 02:07:53.355
And if you're at the 0.5
1509
02:07:53.895 --> 02:07:56.610
pool and you're gonna get more than 20 outputs,
1510
02:07:56.990 --> 02:08:04.664
let us know. But I wish it just had, like it should have, like, a cascade mode or whatever. Yeah. And I think that I think that the guys have talked about that.
1511
02:08:05.445 --> 02:08:11.545
1512
02:08:18.795 --> 02:08:25.775
I remember realize you could put in, like, a larger amount to get a lower fee percentage wise for, like, half until halfway through.
1513
02:08:26.395 --> 02:08:28.415
1514
02:08:29.080 --> 02:08:33.020
I think the the development team is planning to introduce smaller pools.
1515
02:08:33.960 --> 02:08:36.940
Right now, it's the 0.5 BTC pool, 0.05
1516
02:08:37.825 --> 02:08:43.045
BTC pool. You gotta talk in Sats, bro. I know. I don't talk in Sats. I'm sorry. I'm broken. And the 0.01
1517
02:08:43.505 --> 02:08:46.005
pool, I think that there are some plans for a 0.001
1518
02:08:47.730 --> 02:08:51.270
1519
02:08:52.130 --> 02:09:04.695
That's fucking ridiculous. So so they're we're gonna we're gonna keep you know, we keep stepping down. And I That that's the main, like Yeah. We're we're talking with clubs here. The main negative of wasabi is, well, if you don't have fucking $3,000,
1520
02:09:05.155 --> 02:09:07.414
you can't use it. It's not a spec of wallet.
1521
02:09:07.780 --> 02:09:14.200
It's not a Like, that's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous that the lowest threshold is is fucking 26
1522
02:09:15.275 --> 02:09:17.454
$100. Like, that's fucking insane.
1523
02:09:19.914 --> 02:09:23.135
And they just, like, they're that's cool. We're fine with that.
1524
02:09:24.900 --> 02:09:27.159
Who's using fucking you're, like, $400
1525
02:09:27.539 --> 02:09:29.880
underneath the travel rule or whatever the fuck.
1526
02:09:30.820 --> 02:09:32.519
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
1527
02:09:34.595 --> 02:09:38.855
1528
02:09:39.475 --> 02:09:46.500
1529
02:09:48.640 --> 02:09:49.920
Hugo knows what I'm gonna say, but,
1530
02:09:50.719 --> 02:09:51.845
Danny Walbit's asked,
1531
02:09:52.805 --> 02:09:56.825
I've lost it now. No. It wasn't. No. No. Sam asked, I'm behind now.
1532
02:09:57.285 --> 02:10:03.730
1533
02:10:04.430 --> 02:10:09.010
1534
02:10:10.135 --> 02:10:14.474
installing Ronin Dojo fixes this. Zalco would kill me if I didn't say that.
1535
02:10:15.255 --> 02:10:20.429
But, yeah, there's 2 ways you can do it. You can go with the DIY route, which is is is obviously more technical.
1536
02:10:21.210 --> 02:10:24.429
You can install Ronin Dojo on on your own single board computer.
1537
02:10:25.530 --> 02:10:31.534
You know, if if that's out of your outside of your wheelhouse, go for a plug and play option. I mean, right this minute,
1538
02:10:32.074 --> 02:10:36.014
if you want a dojo, then the nodal is is the obvious option.
1539
02:10:36.430 --> 02:10:39.890
Their own in team have got one coming out very, very soon to keep you guys peeled for that.
1540
02:10:40.270 --> 02:10:52.385
But, you know, there are options there. Again, nuance and trade offs. If you want a plug and play option, you're gonna have to pay extra for it. You know, these teams need to make some money. They're gonna message, put the link on the screen there, and that'll dot it.
1541
02:10:53.700 --> 02:10:56.440
Ultimately, if you're not willing to good that I
1542
02:10:56.740 --> 02:10:57.720
am? Yep.
1543
02:10:58.420 --> 02:11:03.065
It's it's it's a trade off between do you wanna spend your time learning how to do this,
1544
02:11:03.925 --> 02:11:05.625
do it yourself with your own hardware,
1545
02:11:05.925 --> 02:11:11.740
you know, flashing the SD card, etcetera, etcetera. It's actually not that not as as difficult as most people,
1546
02:11:13.640 --> 02:11:15.100
would have you believe. However,
1547
02:11:15.555 --> 02:11:37.925
1548
02:11:39.585 --> 02:11:42.405
Like, you just ordered a fucking Porsche to your door.
1549
02:11:43.710 --> 02:11:49.889
1550
02:11:51.045 --> 02:11:54.105
1551
02:11:54.804 --> 02:11:55.304
dojo,
1552
02:11:56.804 --> 02:12:02.960
but it's fucking fantastic. It's it's got a fucking raid. He's, like, he, like, hooks you up. He, like, sets you the fuck up.
1553
02:12:04.139 --> 02:12:08.000
He he's paranoid for you, so you don't have to be paranoid. It's fucking $850.
1554
02:12:09.545 --> 02:12:10.445
It's very nice.
1555
02:12:10.824 --> 02:12:13.405
I I I think I paid 6.50, full disclosure.
1556
02:12:14.505 --> 02:12:16.925
But I paid for it, which is an important part.
1557
02:12:18.640 --> 02:12:24.665
1558
02:12:25.145 --> 02:12:26.205
not not all
1559
02:12:26.665 --> 02:12:31.565
not all is, you know, is absolutely great. Your issue Right. You wanna It's got the fucking samurai
1560
02:12:32.030 --> 02:12:38.930
1561
02:12:39.310 --> 02:12:43.074
It's good. It's it's a very nice device, though. But what's the Sats rate?
1562
02:12:43.454 --> 02:12:45.474
The Sats rate goes up every day.
1563
02:12:45.935 --> 02:12:49.235
There you go. Oh, no. And it goes down every day. Number go down.
1564
02:12:50.909 --> 02:12:53.809
Oh, Asparoo's like, I think you paid more. Fuck you, Asparoo.
1565
02:12:59.855 --> 02:13:06.355
But the nozzle's a great product. The nozzle's the only product that's that that that gives me both lightning and,
1566
02:13:06.815 --> 02:13:08.675
samurai shit at the same time.
1567
02:13:10.639 --> 02:13:15.380
I mean, you can you can use the my node, but you're gonna have issues. Like, ultimately,
1568
02:13:16.075 --> 02:13:22.895
if you're not running a novel, what you should do is you basically should run 2 devices. You should run a device that's Ronin Dojo that's just,
1569
02:13:24.210 --> 02:13:33.385
samurai focused, and then you should run a device that is lightning focused, if you want if you want your own lightning node. Like, if you if you're trying to do your own 247 lightning node.
1570
02:13:34.165 --> 02:13:39.465
So in that situation, you run a Nodl and you get both, and you have if you do the Nodl Dojo,
1571
02:13:40.310 --> 02:13:45.690
you you get in in fucking raid formation so your Hot Wallet isn't just, like, completely reckless,
1572
02:13:46.550 --> 02:13:47.530
and you're good.
1573
02:13:49.785 --> 02:13:57.645
1574
02:13:58.260 --> 02:13:58.660
for,
1575
02:13:59.220 --> 02:14:02.600
my always on mixer machine, which is, you know,
1576
02:14:02.900 --> 02:14:05.000
I love the Ronin guys. They're awesome.
1577
02:14:05.940 --> 02:14:07.640
Ergo, what about you? What do you run?
1578
02:14:08.405 --> 02:14:10.185
1579
02:14:11.925 --> 02:14:14.985
I'm gonna I'm gonna I bought a nodal,
1580
02:14:15.650 --> 02:14:16.230
the nodal
1581
02:14:16.610 --> 02:14:17.110
OG,
1582
02:14:17.730 --> 02:14:19.190
thinking I needed lightning.
1583
02:14:19.570 --> 02:14:20.070
And,
1584
02:14:20.530 --> 02:14:27.495
you know, nothing against Askew who's in the chat and and Kito who have done a really good job with the, you know, the
1585
02:14:28.035 --> 02:14:44.365
the the the the samurai nodal, the dojo nodal. But I just kinda wanted something that was gonna keep me up to date, you know, right away, and I really kinda realized that I don't need lightning. And so that kinda led me to the, the Ronin Dojo route,
1586
02:14:45.065 --> 02:14:49.640
because those guys, they provide really good support, and you're always gonna have kind of the
1587
02:14:50.180 --> 02:14:51.240
the the newest,
1588
02:14:51.860 --> 02:15:05.155
version of of Dojo right away. And, you know, no questions asked. You've always got Zelco's, you know, number on tap in case you need support. I mean, it's like Prestiro. Best of all worlds. Yeah. Exactly. Prestiro for Zelco.
1589
02:15:05.970 --> 02:15:08.710
I hope he listens to this later and he gets a little bit pissed.
1590
02:15:10.450 --> 02:15:14.150
But that but that's what I run. I'm simple, you know, I'm I'm very lazy.
1591
02:15:15.005 --> 02:15:19.585
If is if you if you have to ask me what I'm doing, it's it's probably not much.
1592
02:15:20.205 --> 02:15:28.260
1593
02:15:30.560 --> 02:15:46.079
And and and so maybe I'm a simple pleb in that respect. But I mean, I I mean, I also think that that everyone should have their samurai stack. Right? But but I think that a lot of people can just have their uncle Jim stack where they just scan theirs their friend's samurai,
1594
02:15:47.260 --> 02:15:50.865
node. They can just they just they just scan their friend's dojo,
1595
02:15:51.725 --> 02:15:57.105
and then they have their own, you know, pruned core node for their hardware wallet or whatever.
1596
02:15:58.030 --> 02:16:03.570
1597
02:16:04.030 --> 02:16:06.865
1598
02:16:08.065 --> 02:16:10.085
like, they they're on my dojo.
1599
02:16:10.865 --> 02:16:24.160
1600
02:16:24.995 --> 02:16:26.695
1601
02:16:29.555 --> 02:16:35.660
I like the QR code scan. The QR code scan is a good way of, I think, of of handling that connection.
1602
02:16:38.601 --> 02:16:42.460
1603
02:16:43.175 --> 02:16:43.654
don't,
1604
02:16:44.135 --> 02:16:50.040
do that. Obviously, you know, not a dev. Absolutely no idea what goes into creating that QR code to to
1605
02:16:50.920 --> 02:16:53.420
to make it you know, while it connect, but it it's,
1606
02:16:54.440 --> 02:16:58.795
you know, a fantastic feature for me. And and if anybody any of the devs are out listening
1607
02:16:59.354 --> 02:17:01.295
from the other implementations, please
1608
02:17:02.075 --> 02:17:08.495
consider adding that one. It just makes onboarding 10 times easier. Yeah. Every everyone should have the QR code thing.
1609
02:17:09.420 --> 02:17:17.601
It it it's a bit easier to say scan this QR code rather than, oh, just just let me send you this onion address from my Electrum server. It's such a better connection.
1610
02:17:18.135 --> 02:17:19.515
Make sure you get the right port,
1611
02:17:20.135 --> 02:17:25.435
1612
02:17:26.570 --> 02:17:30.431
So I think that's that's very important. I think we've come a long way in that respect.
1613
02:17:32.785 --> 02:17:36.885
Shout out to me. That's what I wanna talk about. So so we're 2 hours and 15 minutes in.
1614
02:17:37.985 --> 02:17:41.845
My my promise to you freaks that this is gonna be an hour is
1615
02:17:43.240 --> 02:17:43.720
just,
1616
02:17:44.120 --> 02:17:49.255
just really fucked you. So I apologize. I hope you ended at an hour and you're not listening now,
1617
02:17:50.135 --> 02:17:52.155
so that I didn't do this to you.
1618
02:17:52.854 --> 02:17:54.555
I wanna talk about BIP 47.
1619
02:17:55.415 --> 02:17:57.675
And BIP 47 is, I think,
1620
02:17:58.070 --> 02:18:01.370
probably the most important privacy improvement on Bitcoin,
1621
02:18:02.390 --> 02:18:02.890
and
1622
02:18:03.190 --> 02:18:06.505
I can't get anyone to talk about it. So I started a podcast,
1623
02:18:08.165 --> 02:18:17.270
called Citadel Dispatch. This is number 2. And I plan on talking about BIP 47 a lot until someone just fucking puts me in my place and is, like, we should not have bit 47.
1624
02:18:17.810 --> 02:18:18.310
So
1625
02:18:18.930 --> 02:18:22.149
why is this awesome, and why don't we see it in other wallets?
1626
02:18:24.595 --> 02:18:27.814
1627
02:18:28.194 --> 02:18:29.415
The name out of car.
1628
02:18:29.930 --> 02:18:33.229
1629
02:18:34.250 --> 02:18:35.869
the negatives a bit 47.
1630
02:18:36.170 --> 02:18:38.670
It's it leaves me scratching my head every single day
1631
02:18:39.105 --> 02:18:41.925
why more wallets don't implement implement this.
1632
02:18:43.345 --> 02:18:44.465
Possibly the only,
1633
02:18:44.945 --> 02:18:49.610
downside I can see right now, which I believe is not actually part of the BIP, is that,
1634
02:18:50.811 --> 02:18:51.311
first,
1635
02:18:51.770 --> 02:18:52.270
for
1636
02:18:52.730 --> 02:18:56.910
to implement a a NIM into Samura wallet, you need to do a follow transaction,
1637
02:18:57.290 --> 02:19:06.465
which is a an on chain transaction, which obviously incurs fees and and costs a small amount of sats. Now I believe the devs are working on removing that, and it's not actually
1638
02:19:08.370 --> 02:19:09.570
integral to,
1639
02:19:10.450 --> 02:19:11.431
to bit 47.
1640
02:19:11.811 --> 02:19:23.085
So once that that sort of little hurdle has has disappeared, which I believe is, you know, is just over the horizon, I genuinely can't understand why more wallets don't implement bit 47.
1641
02:19:23.690 --> 02:19:24.091
You know?
1642
02:19:24.811 --> 02:19:26.990
I'm sure Ergo will put it far more eloquently
1643
02:19:27.370 --> 02:19:28.910
than myself in terms of,
1644
02:19:29.290 --> 02:19:31.710
the crux of bit 47 and what it is.
1645
02:19:32.905 --> 02:19:41.005
Well, I I don't know. I'll leave it open to the room, but I genuinely can't understand why people why more wallets don't don't implement this.
1646
02:19:44.650 --> 02:19:46.110
1647
02:19:47.690 --> 02:19:48.510
BIP 47
1648
02:19:48.891 --> 02:19:49.391
are,
1649
02:19:49.930 --> 02:19:51.870
is a a reusable payment
1650
02:19:52.654 --> 02:19:57.395
channel in quotes that, you know, basically is established between 2 users on chain.
1651
02:19:58.895 --> 02:20:02.811
I don't wanna say it's entirely like kinda lightning, but it's a little bit similar.
1652
02:20:03.351 --> 02:20:08.490
Anyway, once you've established that sort of notification transaction, it's it's very easy to
1653
02:20:08.976 --> 02:20:11.155
simply make payments to a
1654
02:20:11.695 --> 02:20:18.035
another PayNEM. Right? And Matt's got the the the the NIMs up on on the screen right now.
1655
02:20:19.220 --> 02:20:28.665
And all of this is basically managed by, you know, the the the the wallet. You know, you just instead of having to go, hey. I wanna pay Matt 50,000 sats.
1656
02:20:30.245 --> 02:20:34.905
You know, hey, Matt. Can you send me an address? I just say, you know, I've already made a
1657
02:20:35.285 --> 02:20:38.630
a a connection transaction to to Matt's paying him,
1658
02:20:39.170 --> 02:20:44.230
and it's as simple as that. I've already made the the connection transaction. I could just send him whatever I need to send him.
1659
02:20:45.010 --> 02:20:45.910
And this is,
1660
02:20:47.346 --> 02:21:04.024
extremely, extremely useful for, you know, just on chain privacy and privacy in general. I mean, you know, we talk about kind of no KYC and and keeping your coins separate from, you know, your identity, whatever identity that may be. Maybe that's your Twitter profile. You know, you post a static, you know, donation address.
1661
02:21:04.645 --> 02:21:07.784
Well, that's now associated with whatever NIM that you have.
1662
02:21:08.484 --> 02:21:11.864
And a way to kinda get around that is to use the the bit 47,
1663
02:21:12.939 --> 02:21:13.680
you know,
1664
02:21:14.300 --> 02:21:14.800
payments.
1665
02:21:16.620 --> 02:21:17.120
And,
1666
02:21:17.819 --> 02:21:18.880
you know, I know
1667
02:21:19.315 --> 02:21:23.415
I know that the samurai team has a a lot more planned around this.
1668
02:21:24.915 --> 02:21:27.495
I can't say much right now, but I know that there's
1669
02:21:27.820 --> 02:21:28.221
kind of,
1670
02:21:29.980 --> 02:21:31.760
the the the bit 47,
1671
02:21:33.181 --> 02:21:40.105
Panam unlocks a lot of options for people that I don't even think that we really realize. Like, you know, you can sort of use it as,
1672
02:21:40.965 --> 02:21:44.985
you know, instead of, like, I wanna pay Ergo. You know?
1673
02:21:45.659 --> 02:21:59.364
Ergo has his pay in him, and I've managed basically everything through that. You know? You could use it for, you know, sort of a Identity. Use identity. Right? You know, you you you can log into a website. You can sort of use it for encryption. You can use it for messaging. You can use it for, like,
1674
02:22:00.064 --> 02:22:07.000
quite a lot of of things that, you know It could be your NIM. Exactly. It can be sort of your real your real NIM.
1675
02:22:08.660 --> 02:22:09.640
You know, and
1676
02:22:09.945 --> 02:22:12.605
it's extremely useful for people who are making payments.
1677
02:22:13.545 --> 02:22:19.005
And for anybody who's not making payments, they're sort of like, you know, I don't really get it, or I don't see kind of the need.
1678
02:22:20.050 --> 02:22:26.150
1679
02:22:26.690 --> 02:22:27.410
you can't just
1680
02:22:28.475 --> 02:22:34.895
as a Bitcoiner, we can't just provide a Bitcoin address. If I provide you a Bitcoin address right now, freaks, you're all watching,
1681
02:22:35.274 --> 02:22:36.335
you wanna donate.
1682
02:22:36.811 --> 02:22:45.230
If you donate, not only will everyone see exactly how much was donated, they will see who donated it and where they donated it from. They can track all of you.
1683
02:22:46.285 --> 02:22:50.145
Right now, I have my my BIP 47 pay name on the screen.
1684
02:22:50.605 --> 02:23:00.690
I have my payment code on the screen. If you if you scan that payment code, you can pay me to a unique address that is generated between the 2 of us
1685
02:23:01.070 --> 02:23:02.610
because you scanned the code.
1686
02:23:03.755 --> 02:23:10.815
And it if if Ergo scanned it or Bitcoin QA scanned it or any of the other freaks scanned it, they would get a different address.
1687
02:23:11.880 --> 02:23:14.700
That's a game changer. That is that is massive.
1688
02:23:15.320 --> 02:23:24.885
Like, people shouldn't have to have fucking BTC pay server to to to to get tips in a private way. They should be able to just post something
1689
02:23:25.905 --> 02:23:29.925
and have people use that something, that's a fix something,
1690
02:23:30.641 --> 02:23:32.740
to generate things to pay them.
1691
02:23:34.000 --> 02:23:39.755
And and BIP 47 allows you to do that, and I don't understand why Samura Wallet's the only one that has it.
1692
02:23:42.635 --> 02:23:46.895
1693
02:23:48.689 --> 02:23:50.390
I think that the bid process
1694
02:23:50.850 --> 02:23:55.670
you know, again, I'm not a developer and somebody will shout at me in the comments and tell me how I'm wrong.
1695
02:23:56.745 --> 02:23:59.565
But the process has become sort of a religious
1696
02:24:01.225 --> 02:24:01.725
experience.
1697
02:24:02.265 --> 02:24:08.229
You know, you have to pay tribute, And once you've paid tribute, then you get your thing integrated into Bitcoin.
1698
02:24:09.569 --> 02:24:28.230
And I I if, you know, my interpretation or my understanding of the history of bit 47 was that it was introduced by someone that, you know, didn't quite pay tribute and therefore, you know, we don't have it. You You know? And the excuse was some minor technical things, something like, well, the notification transaction is spam or something along those lines.
1699
02:24:28.930 --> 02:24:40.165
And I mean, looking back now at at, you know, even though we've had some fee events, how relatively low fees kinda still are, you know, it just boggles the mind as to why not a real thing.
1700
02:24:41.170 --> 02:24:42.870
And it is a bit unexplainable.
1701
02:24:43.971 --> 02:24:46.070
You know, it just it's a shame.
1702
02:24:48.136 --> 02:24:50.315
1703
02:24:52.375 --> 02:24:55.835
what's the Hexa Wallet, are they implementing bit 47?
1704
02:24:56.500 --> 02:24:57.000
1705
02:24:58.260 --> 02:24:59.080
But, I mean,
1706
02:24:59.859 --> 02:25:00.359
look,
1707
02:25:01.779 --> 02:25:02.680
there are
1708
02:25:03.596 --> 02:25:08.976
projects that ask my advice, and those projects implement the things I want them to implement.
1709
02:25:10.530 --> 02:25:13.190
So I'm trying to make PIP 47 the thing.
1710
02:25:14.530 --> 02:25:24.535
I I I hope if you're listening right now and we don't have a formal relationship, you might reach out and be, like, let's fucking make this happen, you know, and I'll I'll help you make it happen.
1711
02:25:26.420 --> 02:25:28.840
I mean, because a bib 47 is not helpful
1712
02:25:29.780 --> 02:25:31.880
unless we have people implement it.
1713
02:25:32.260 --> 02:25:33.000
I have
1714
02:25:35.365 --> 02:25:37.225
my BIP 47 Pay NIM
1715
02:25:37.845 --> 02:25:38.904
publicly available,
1716
02:25:40.005 --> 02:25:40.984
but, like, honestly,
1717
02:25:41.765 --> 02:25:45.360
like, as much shit as my beloved samurai
1718
02:25:46.140 --> 02:25:55.015
wallet users want to give me for stacking sats, they're all stacking. They don't want to contribute, and that's fine. I'm complete I'm completely cool with that.
1719
02:25:55.955 --> 02:25:57.415
I don't get much contribute
1720
02:25:57.851 --> 02:26:06.435
contributions through that fucking portal, and that's fine. But the thing is is it's only the those wallet users. It's only, like, you have to be specifically
1721
02:26:07.055 --> 02:26:08.435
Android and then
1722
02:26:08.895 --> 02:26:09.395
Samrod.
1723
02:26:09.935 --> 02:26:10.435
Right?
1724
02:26:11.535 --> 02:26:13.135
Like, no one's gonna accept
1725
02:26:13.610 --> 02:26:18.511
no one's gonna do any kind of major fundraiser, and they can only accept from that subset.
1726
02:26:18.891 --> 02:26:22.190
It it's only powerful if we get a lot of people to use it.
1727
02:26:22.745 --> 02:26:27.564
And and you only really get any kind of reasonable privacy unless we get a lot of people to use it. So,
1728
02:26:28.825 --> 02:26:30.685
I'm trying to make that like a
1729
02:26:31.221 --> 02:26:32.760
a thing I'm pushing for.
1730
02:26:34.900 --> 02:26:43.175
1731
02:26:43.955 --> 02:26:44.455
Yeah.
1732
02:26:44.915 --> 02:26:46.375
1733
02:26:47.650 --> 02:26:48.870
They're not that expensive.
1734
02:26:51.090 --> 02:27:00.215
1735
02:27:00.675 --> 02:27:02.615
1736
02:27:03.230 --> 02:27:07.410
That's impressive, dude. You're probably the biggest PayNIM follower person ever.
1737
02:27:08.270 --> 02:27:20.495
1738
02:27:21.055 --> 02:27:22.035
things, all this?
1739
02:27:22.495 --> 02:27:27.140
1740
02:27:29.760 --> 02:27:40.944
I think we can fix that. We'll find a way to fix that. But No. If you're already if you're already following him on fucking paying him, like, fucking pay this guy. Give him a give him buy him buy him a drink.
1741
02:27:42.160 --> 02:27:44.899
Forget about drinks for me. Buy buy him a drink.
1742
02:27:46.720 --> 02:27:55.016
I'm I'm I I you know, all the hate all the hate, I'll I'll tell you, way more on lightning than anything else. People love lightning.
1743
02:27:57.020 --> 02:27:58.561
1744
02:28:00.460 --> 02:28:03.520
1745
02:28:06.165 --> 02:28:06.905
But PayNim's
1746
02:28:07.365 --> 02:28:12.825
we we need we need we need multiple wallet support. We need at least, like, one good,
1747
02:28:14.660 --> 02:28:16.600
iPhone wallet to support it.
1748
02:28:17.620 --> 02:28:20.600
If we have if we have one good iPhone wallet to support it,
1749
02:28:20.925 --> 02:28:25.345
people have used it. I I I think I think Bitcoin as a donation medium
1750
02:28:26.444 --> 02:28:29.840
is, like, a very easy use case. Like, people want,
1751
02:28:30.620 --> 02:28:35.825
and when we see people in the developed world that they can't pay for their health care and shit, which is sad as fuck, but,
1752
02:28:36.145 --> 02:28:40.485
like, they need an easy way to just accept donations and not have to deal with KYC.
1753
02:28:42.385 --> 02:28:44.085
And we don't have that for them.
1754
02:28:44.400 --> 02:28:51.300
And I I would go to the Monero stands. I mean, I the the easiest way to privately accept Bitcoin is to just accept as Monero
1755
02:28:52.105 --> 02:28:52.605
and
1756
02:28:53.465 --> 02:28:59.630
and then cross transfer it in. Like, you post a Monero address, you don't have to deal with that shit. You're gonna get chastened
1757
02:29:02.270 --> 02:29:10.025
for that. You're gonna get canceled now. Yeah. Well, I'm live. So, I mean, I can't edit that out. So here we are, freaks. Oh, they If if 2 hours to hear that part.
1758
02:29:10.485 --> 02:29:15.226
Freaks, keep in mind that if if you're in the chat right now and you don't give me shit in the chat room,
1759
02:29:15.846 --> 02:29:16.985
you're you're complicit.
1760
02:29:21.120 --> 02:29:24.500
Yeah. But, I mean, it's true and it's fine. It's it is what it is.
1761
02:29:25.135 --> 02:29:29.795
Let's get Jack to add pain in him to strike. Yes. 100%. Fucking pressure him to do it.
1762
02:29:30.255 --> 02:29:31.154
Make it happen.
1763
02:29:36.950 --> 02:29:39.370
So we've been 2 and a half hours in.
1764
02:29:39.845 --> 02:29:43.225
It seems the freaks have no more questions for us of value,
1765
02:29:44.484 --> 02:29:45.944
and I love you all.
1766
02:29:46.324 --> 02:29:54.210
I appreciate ergo. Fuck Monero up, You know? There we go. It will probably trend to 0. I'm not saying it won't trend to 0, but I'm,
1767
02:29:55.250 --> 02:30:01.575
just mentioning that the easiest way to accept Bitcoin privately is is with the Monero address. That's all I'm saying.
1768
02:30:03.555 --> 02:30:04.055
And,
1769
02:30:05.475 --> 02:30:08.370
no. I just appreciate you guys. Thank you for joining us for
1770
02:30:09.180 --> 02:30:09.680
episode
1771
02:30:10.488 --> 02:30:10.988
2
1772
02:30:11.797 --> 02:30:12.297
of
1773
02:30:13.106 --> 02:30:13.606
Sidwell
1774
02:30:14.416 --> 02:30:14.916
Dispatch.
1775
02:30:15.805 --> 02:30:19.345
I keep reading the comments, so it's gonna fuck with me.
1776
02:30:20.364 --> 02:30:20.864
But
1777
02:30:21.484 --> 02:30:28.050
I I appreciate you guys joining us. I appreciate all the work you've done towards Bitcoin. I appreciate all the freaks that have joined us.
1778
02:30:28.510 --> 02:30:33.535
And next week, I have a very good fucking pair joining us.
1779
02:30:34.575 --> 02:30:44.950
Slightly worse than this pair, but it is gonna be it's gonna be a good one. I think you guys are gonna enjoy it. So definitely stay tuned and and and join for that. Thank you, Ergo. Thank you, Bitcoin q and a.
1780
02:30:45.410 --> 02:30:45.910
And,
1781
02:30:46.850 --> 02:30:52.230
you know, I I just I look forward to just, like, dunking on the all the Bitcoin deniers with you guys.
1782
02:30:53.795 --> 02:30:56.375
1783
02:30:57.795 --> 02:31:01.335
1784
02:31:22.750 --> 02:31:24.290
1785
02:31:25.705 --> 02:31:28.765
Let me play up there with those stars.
1786
02:31:30.345 --> 02:31:33.325
Let me see what life is like
1787
02:31:33.705 --> 02:31:34.205
on
1788
02:31:35.130 --> 02:31:35.630
Jupiter
1789
02:31:35.931 --> 02:31:36.830
and Mars.
1790
02:31:38.010 --> 02:31:38.990
In other words,
1791
02:31:40.650 --> 02:31:41.150
hold
1792
02:31:42.250 --> 02:31:42.750
my
1793
02:31:46.085 --> 02:31:47.064
In other words,
1794
02:31:49.125 --> 02:31:49.625
darling,
1795
02:31:50.200 --> 02:31:50.700
kiss
1796
02:31:52.721 --> 02:31:53.221
1797
02:31:55.240 --> 02:31:58.620
1798
02:31:59.080 --> 02:32:00.145
for forevermore.
1799
02:32:02.125 --> 02:32:06.306
You are all I long for. All I wish
1800
02:32:07.245 --> 02:32:08.065
and adore.
1801
02:32:09.680 --> 02:32:10.580
In other words,
1802
02:32:12.400 --> 02:32:12.900
1803
02:32:13.920 --> 02:32:14.900
be true.
1804
02:33:35.725 --> 02:33:36.785
