Dec. 24, 2020
CD1: Self Custody with Rodolfo Novak & Evan Kaloudis
Join Matt Odell as he sits down with Rodolfo Novak and Evan Kaloudis.
EPISODE: 0.0.1
BLOCK: 662548
PRICE: 4265 sats per dollar
TOPICS: self custody, FinCEN, ledger hack, and audience questions
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00:00 - The decision to start allocating toward Bitcoin when Bitcoin was at $10,000.
00:28 - The current price of Bitcoin closer to $20,000.
00:50 - Bitcoin's scarcity and relative valuation compared to gold.
40:48 - Data privacy and source of funds
42:16 - Government prioritizing data collection over data privacy
43:48 - The challenges of trusting third parties
01:22:18 - Importance of having a copy of redeem script for multisig wallets
01:23:14 - Discussion on the number of words in a passphrase
01:24:26 - Bank vaults and their security issues
02:01:12 - NFT on RGB over Lightning
02:01:36 - Scams coming to Bitcoin
02:02:03 - Password managers and security
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:35:07 PM
Duration: 8050.155
Channels: 1
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The decision to start allocating toward Bitcoin
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when Bitcoin was at $10,000.
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It's a little more challenging
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with the current price closer to $20,000
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Amazing
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over a very short period of time how big of a run up we've had.
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But having said that,
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our our fundamental work
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shows that Bitcoin,
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should be worth about $400,000.
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Woah.
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So, we're going to even if we had the ability to do so today, we're going to monitor the market and, see how trading goes,
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with valuation, but ultimately, we'll have to buy it. Scott Miner, we wanna delay the Fed press conference for this comment. Bayou, how do you frame a 400,000,
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Bitcoin? How do you get from where we are now up to 400,000? Is it just based on scarcity?
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Yeah. Right, Tom. It's based on the scarcity and relative valuation, such as things like gold,
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as a percentage of, GDP.
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So, you know, there Bitcoin is actually
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has a lot of the attributes of gold,
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and at the same time, has an unusual
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value in terms of transactions.
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Right. Mike McKee emails me. Why are we talking about BitDogg while we've got a Fed press conference going on? McKee, jump jump in here and save this Fed You you know we're gonna get emails,
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from people about Bitcoin.
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What is up, freaks? Welcome to the first ever Citadel Dispatch,
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joined by our special guests,
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NVK and Evan Kaludis.
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Welcome, guys. Yo.
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Hello. Glad to be here. Thanks for having us, Matt. This is fun. It's the new episode.
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Brand new.
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Yeah. So to all the freaks joining us,
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the idea here
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is to add
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another
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another show that you might enjoy to the TFTC
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lineup.
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This one will
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be composed of actionable discussion, and it'll be streamed to your citadels
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live.
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And from there, we will then put it in the feed as audio.
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And I'm was lucky enough to have my good friends, NVK and Evan, here to join us for this one.
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So our topics this week
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will be,
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self custody in general, the recent FinCEN ruling
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or,
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I guess, rule that they put forward, and this ledger hack that's going on. And the last 20 minutes, I wanna reserve for audience questions.
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So, as you can see
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in the
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in the stream,
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all of your comments are being streamed live to everyone else as well. So please submit questions,
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provide your feedback while we're while we're discussing these topics, and we will be happy to highlight them at the end of the episode.
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To all the people joining us from the
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podcast feed, I hope this translates well to direct audio.
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We will try to
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explain anything we're showing on screen, but we're gonna try and keep that to a minimum.
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So what's up, guys? What are you drinking?
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Me? I've got some Macallan 12,
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double cask.
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It's not too
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bad. I've got over there. I've got some Some reasonably
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decent red wine.
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So
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our guests today
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are very,
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you know, very involved in the self custody space.
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I think both of them would agree with me that you're not actually using Bitcoin if you're not actually controlling your own keys.
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So in that case,
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if you are using a Bitcoin wallet, the only way it is a Bitcoin wallet is if you are controlling your own keys.
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NVK is, the cofounder of Koincite
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and,
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which is the maker of
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my favorite hardware wallet, the Coldcard.
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And Evan is the maintainer the lead maintainer of Zeus,
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Lightning Wallet.
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So
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but both self custody wallets. Self custody has hit the
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the headlines recently because of this recent FinCEN rule. So I before we start, I wanted to just discuss why self custody is important, why we control our own keys as Bitcoiners.
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I was hoping Evan could start here.
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Yeah. Sure thing. So,
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you know, as far as assets go,
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this ability to self custody at such a cheap cost and with such ease is,
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like, really one of the main selling points of Bitcoin to me at least.
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You know, like, if
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if if you were to, I don't know,
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not self custody it and just
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trust someone else, then, you know, you're you're losing out on,
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you know, half the value prop of the asset, I believe.
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And, you know, that that's mostly in,
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you know, censorship resistance, you know,
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not having
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not having to rely on anyone to send a transaction from you, like an exchange or a bank, and for you to be able to do it yourself.
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Because,
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you know, like, perhaps
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you haven't experienced it as an the average citizen of, you know, whatever western country you're probably tuning in from.
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But, you know, if there's
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numerous, countless cases across the world where people,
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you know, they skirt a little close to, you know, doing something their governments
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or someone powerful doesn't like, and they lose access to their bank account, their
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stocks,
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other assets.
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And,
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you know, just taking control of your Bitcoin and putting it on a wallet with the keys that you know and control
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totally mitigates
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that risk. So,
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I think like Matt said, he noted on the head when, he said, if you don't control your own keys and you're not custodying your own Bitcoin,
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you it's not yours.
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You're not using Bitcoin, and what you have is an IOU.
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It's the whole fucking point.
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Not your keys, not your coins. And if you're not gonna self custody, well, they either just sell everything or go buy some GBTC on your 401 k.
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Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, seriously. Right? I mean, what's what's the point? You're gonna have some some IOUs on Coinbase that has way more risk than just some GBTC.
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Yep. And then, like, think about if regular
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regulatory risk comes in, like, we've been worrying about that sort of triggered this sort of mad dash we've,
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probably all been experiencing this week. Like,
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what's gonna happen? Those coins are just not gonna be yours anymore. And, you know,
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what were you, in Bitcoin to
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begin with just for the gains?
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I mean, you know, some people
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are you know, they're honestly gonna come in for a number go up and to get rich,
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but
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a lot of people are gonna stay in Bitcoin because it liberates them and gives them a whole new level of freedom.
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I think it's like you know? I mean it for the gains, but also for the capacity of spending the gains without permission.
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Exactly.
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Well, I mean, before Bitcoin,
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you couldn't really self custody. There was no way to self custody assets, I guess, except for
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metal gold. Right? Like, actual
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physical gold. Like, I feel like most people don't even realize that. So gold and cash, right, is the only things that you could self custody, but the problem is, like, with cash catches on fire, right, or whatever happens.
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You know? And and Grid. Yeah. Seriously. I mean dilute you. No. But and and yeah. Sure. Yeah. Aside aside from inflation problems, I mean,
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cash takes a lot of room. Right? So, like, to have your life savings in it. Right? It's it's surprisingly,
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like, a lot of space you need, and you have to keep the mice from eating.
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I mean, just look at the extent the cartels go to bury that shit properly, all vacuum packed, and it's it's very expensive to do that, and, you know, it's gonna get inflated, and then with gold, I mean, seriously,
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I mean,
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you know, first it's like you have to have serious physical security. Right? Like, I'm talking about, like, next level stuff,
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and then, you know, you're gonna lose 10, 15%
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on both ends of the trade. Right? Like and and gold,
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on average, doesn't go even that high. Right? I mean, we had a little run up, which wasn't really a run up for gold. It was just that the the dollar went to shit.
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So stock goes up, gold goes up.
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But,
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you know, I mean, listen. I think this audience already, like, you know, they they understand this stuff, but
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it's it's completely unrealistic. Right? You you can't you can't leave your country if you're gold. Right? They're gonna take it from you. Yeah. You know, Bitcoin, 24 words, you travel, you're gone. Well, I just wanna go back for a second here in terms of
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the idea of self custody and cash,
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which is the most common
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way that, that the average person, I guess, has any kind of real experience with self custody.
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And it very much is a substandard experience, and I think it shares a lot of similarities with shitcoins.
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In that, I particularly think you cannot really self custody
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a shitcoin because if there's no hard cap on the supply,
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you can control the keys. You have the keys. No one can spend
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your specific shitcoin.
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But if they can just create infinite shitcoins
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while you're storing those keys,
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then it you don't really
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have self custody. Right? There there's a dynamic at play there. The way I like to think of this is like this.
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The USD
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is the least worst shit coin.
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So,
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you know, between
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between, like, all the shit coins available or rather have USD.
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Right?
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Mhmm. You know? And and then you have Bitcoin. Bitcoin is king. Right? I mean, there there is no reason to really hold anything else anymore.
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Yeah. I would agree with that sentiment. I mean,
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if you look at the way it's been performing over the last 10 years, you're,
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you know, best off just treating Bitcoin as, like, your, checking account
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and your your savings, really, and, you know, just dipping into it when you need it.
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You know, if you're holding cash, you're a fool. If,
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if you're in the stock market and you're in an index fund, you're gonna lose value against, you know, hard assets like gold and Bitcoin.
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I think what maybe a lot of people don't understand is that, like, stocking fasting, like, at least, like, in the recent,
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like, modern history. Right? So, like, say the mid century
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onwards. Right? It was not designed for the average person to invest. Right?
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You're a sucker.
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Right?
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No. Seriously, everybody's front running you. Right? And and and you're just, like, bleeding,
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bleeding management fees.
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Right? That this
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the the idea of the average person, right, like, not being able to save just by holding USD,
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right and having to become a professional
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sort of investor
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to just manage their like you know like the yearly
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scrape by savings,
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in stocks is is, like,
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pure insanity.
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Right? Like, people should be able to just save
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without thinking. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You earned, you put it under your mattress. Right? And then, like, 20 years later, you retire. Right? Like, there shouldn't be
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some requirement of of, like, very advanced finance for you to to be able to to have a, like, a comfortable retirement. Right? Yeah. Exactly. Like, if you're a blue collar worker, you shouldn't have to be worrying about, like, what tech stocks are freaking doing. You should just have to worry about your job and then, like, cut a part of your income to the side to save for the future. But, you know, the elites have messed things up so badly that everyone has to get into stock market and be a Robinhood trader. It's really it's really insane. Yeah. Fucking ridiculous that you're expected to be, like, some kind you either have to be
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financially savvy or you have to hire someone and pay them for that privilege. And then when you go to do your taxes, you gotta go and then pay someone else for that privilege as well because it's so fucking complicated intentionally.
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And and the way I look at it, I mean, at least Robinhood, Wealthsimple,
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you know, even Cash App, all these apps, right, they let you buy, like, partial
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stocks.
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Right? At least, like, they have a more, like, honest, approachable proposition.
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Right?
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Like, you you know, you you know you're not getting the full yield of of any stock. Right? Like, you're
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you're just doing better than whatever other investment.
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But, like,
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when you are the average average person, right, like, that that wants to have a little bit in the market, right,
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That, you know, you walk into your bank branch,
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you get you're like, computer says yes, computer says no, like investment advisor, the branch. Right? And they're gonna allocate
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some some, you know, a few $1,000
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on on some mutual fund of the bank offers that they, you know, they they rape you from every freaking angle that possibly have. But, you know, dollar keeps on going lower, so
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you you you even with that
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absurdly
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poor investment,
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with all the fees taken, you still do better
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than than holding
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cash. That's how bad cash does now.
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Cash trash is, Ray Dalio has been saying. That's right. Cash is trash.
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So, yeah, so quick question for you guys. I'm sure you guys have been telling some people that you got into Bitcoin to be pulling off exchanges.
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You guys have, like, you know, first go to wallet on their phone that you guys are recommending.
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I mean, Rodolfo, you're probably sending all your friends gold cards. But, before we get there before we get there, so
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so I I I think I think the the easy way to distill this is you're not controlling your own wealth unless
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you're holding Bitcoin, and you're not holding Bitcoin unless you're holding your own keys.
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Yeah. I understand. The ultimate goal
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the ultimate goal for for every single person on this fucking planet
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is to hold their own Bitcoin keys. That is that is that is the ultimate. That's where we're going.
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The question is what is that that that process for that average person to get there? I mean, this does not
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having someone else control your wealth obviously has risks. You have to trust that third party. You have to trust governments that are regulating those third parties that you're trusting.
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We saw that with gold with the 6102
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act in the United States,
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where where they took they forcibly took people's gold. And we see it all the time where where money gets seized. We see it with PayPal. PayPal is a perfect millennial example here where they don't wanna freeze people's money. They don't wanna send people's money, but they're forced to by governments,
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and the regulations that they have to comply with. And then we have things like Mt. Gox where you have fraud
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and your money is taken because of fraud, not because of necessarily regulation. So in both those cases, you have third party risk that results in you losing your money. Now self custody reduce removes those risks, but all of a sudden you add personal responsibility risk. So the question is,
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what is that process that that average person goes from going from
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a a a pleb who's trusting third parties to hold their wealth to to a sovereign individual that is holding their own wealth. I think I've like, I've been thinking about this for a few years now,
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and and sort of, like, it it depends on who and how much.
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Okay? Mhmm.
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So so, like, you know, some dude who wants to buy a $100 worth of Bitcoin. Right? You know what? Fuck it. Have the IOU in some stupid fucking exchange or Cash App or whatever. Right?
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Let them play around with it. They lose it, so be it. Right?
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But but just the fact that they went out and bought it. Right? Like, it it's it's one step.
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Right, and then and then after that, it's like that's when you start pestering them, right, like, dude, you know what?
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That's gonna be worth 10 x in 2 years. Right? Almost certain right now, the way it works a bit quite so far.
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So
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so why don't you just, like,
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get an a phone app, right,
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write down the seed on a piece of paper,
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and and and just just take custody of that. Right? And if you're not willing to do that, you know what? Sell it. So I've I've told many friends, sell it and buy some stupid ETF
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on your bank
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mutual fund crap
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of Bitcoin. At least you get some Bitcoin upside. Right?
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Otherwise,
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like, that this is the time you make the decision, right? You either sell it GBTC
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or
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you
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you take custody of it, and if you're gonna take custody of it and it's only $100 right now, you know, download BlueWallet
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or
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or a fully noted,
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or on Android.
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I don't use Android. So,
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On Android, you should use samurai or blue wallet?
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Blue wallet is great.
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Blue wallet is cross platform.
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Yeah. You know, they're they're doing a good job.
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And and, you know, like so so that's the first step. Right? Write the seed down
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somewhere. Could be a piece of paper. You know, if you burn, so be it. It was not the end of the world. It was a $100. Right? But at least Well, the paper would have to burn and your phone would have to burn. Right? But but, like, we got them off the ground. Right? Mhmm.
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And then and then now
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they're gonna start seeing returns,
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right, if they didn't buy the speak.
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So
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now you you get them to sort
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of understand that, like, okay. This is a good investment. Right? They're gonna see it that way. Right? Forget about all the the the charged,
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like, politics of Bitcoin or everything else. Right? It's just this is a good investment. Right? I mean, I held this for 1 year. Look how much it is now.
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So
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so now you take them to, what is it? Bitcoin's
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security dog guide. Right? And it's gonna show them step by step basics. Listen. I have I have cold card there, but it could be other hardware wallets. Just the basic.
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Get your
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your seed set up on a hardware wallet,
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make a backup of it, test the backup of it, and that's it. Right?
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So at least not there on the hardware wallet. Point, the testing the backup.
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Yeah. This applies not just to Bitcoin wallets, but any type of backups you're doing in general.
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You haven't done the backup process until you've tested it out and made sure it works. So free just make sure you do that. It's worth it. Get the get the Bitcoin security guide on the on the screen. See if we can at least go through the steps. It's very I don't like your guide. It's yeah. Well, go to your guide.
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You have a guide. No. But your guide is guide is better than your guide. My guide only has bullet points.
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My guide has
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number points. Yeah. No. See, my my guide fits in a single screen, I think. My guide tells you how to verify your fucking software. There he goes. In line Point is you you get your harder wallet.
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You write down the seed. Okay? You put it in metal because paper burns. Okay? You make some some encrypted micro SD backups because you have Okay. Rodolf.
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Yeah? Rodolfo, we've gone a little bit we've gone a little bit too far into the weeds here. Okay?
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Before we get to that point, can we just go back to the phone wallet thing?
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Because I think I think for most people We've already done it. They've done it. They have a phone wallet. It takes 2 minutes. I think most people the the mobile wallet is the first step. Right? Yeah. 100%. And and am I a crazy person that I actually think Wait.
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Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. If they're older,
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okay,
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any person who's a bit older,
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older people
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hate phones. I personally hate phones too. Okay? Don't do Bitcoin phones. Phones are stupid.
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Okay? But older people,
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they're not gonna be as as like versed to the phone and understand how phone backups work, any of that shit, so so please take
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them and and, like, maybe install Electrum for them. Right? Like, Electrum for all the, like, the UI
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and of
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it, it's surprisingly simple.
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Once you get the seed in. Right? Like, you open the thing is there. You wanna send money out. It's like, it's it works. Right? Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. MBK. I I I got a little bit distracted because our boy, Keep It Simple Bitcoin, wanted us to shield his guide. But did you just say that a boomer that can't use a phone wall wallet should use Electrum? Did you hear that? I've been there hundreds of times. Yeah. You know, you're not gonna get invited back to the show if you keep up with this bullshit. Yeah. I I don't know about that. Well, there's I'm Valiant. With Electrum just like from this perspective. I You're better off maybe even setting someone up on on Spectre.
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So Spectre is amazing, but the problem with Spectre is it requires the node part.
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So be uncle Jim.
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Right? No. I'm not. I'm nobody's
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Jim.
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Why not? Yo. I do not. There's things they don't do in my life. I don't hold people's money. I don't help people with investments,
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and I don't do their their IT.
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No.
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Okay. Fair enough.
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Anyways,
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point is,
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like, Electrum I only say Electrum because out of its wallets, it's it's the it's the most
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sort of, like, download and open
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wallet. Like, it it truly is for all its flaws. Okay. You download and you open. Look. Keep it simple agrees with me.
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Okay. And he teaches people.
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I don't know. Would you Don't make me regret putting that on the screen. Sabi
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Wallet, when where he risks getting these pop ups, connecting to a rogue server? No. No. Wasabi, you need, the you need the node. What about Bitcoin Core?
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No. Bitcoin Core, it's
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it's unusable as a wallet.
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Blue Wallet on desktop, I need to try out. I think Blue Wallet in general is, like, a fantastic
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fucking
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beginner wallet. I think I think most people can can can figure it out.
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It's it's completely free open source software.
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It complies with, like, pretty much every major standard, so it's a nice get your feet, you know, wet kind of wallet.
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Pretty much everyone has a smartphone. Not everyone has a computer. It's easier for the average person to secure secure a smartphone at least from, like, everyone except from the NSA and the US government.
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So, like, that path to me makes a lot of sense. And
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I almost think for the average person, like, if you're if you're under, like,
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50,000,000 sats or something like that, you know,
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I I almost prefer to be on a mobile wallet than be on a an on an exchange. Like, I don't know if that is is is that is that a controversial statement? I've taught many seniors,
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okay, how to download
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Electrum
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and open it.
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I don't think boomers using Electrum is the way. No. I listen. It's different people, different I hate this idea, okay, of, like, a single solution for all the problems because it's like it's completely different people.
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Right? It's like different people, different problems, different solutions.
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And Fartface 2,000, I think, did some math there for,
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Sats.
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Is that
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what he's saying? I don't know. Or is that the block number? Oh, that's the block number.
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He's letting us he's letting us know that we've just incremented a block. Thanks, fartface 2,000.
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By the way, best NIM ever.
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Okay. So, I mean, I think we've agreed that that, fortunately, Bitcoiners have many options in terms of actually holding their own keys, which is good. Right? Yes. And I I I think I think that if you if you go back even just a year, you go back 2 years, like, there was way less quality options. Like, 2 years ago, I wholeheartedly agree with your Electrum recommendation because there were so few options. You know what's kinda funny and a little controversial maybe now, but it wasn't then?
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One of the best multisig wallets that there was for people not doing
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huge volumes,
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was co pay.
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Co pay was actually pretty good for for the average person to use.
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Do you have some vulnerability?
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No. Isn't this coming from the JavaScript hater? Isn't that a JavaScript wallet? Yep. That was the problem with that wallet. That wallet would break after also maintained by a fucking discount. In it. Yeah. That's the bigger issue. Literally, it would break. But, yeah, a lot of people had forked co pay and use it for their own wallets, their own wallets and not. But it was pretty solid, product at the time. I mean, at least you guys are ahead of its time.
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Yeah. Well, I'm just glad that Satoshi Vermuzin
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agrees with me.
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And I I I think I mean,
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I'll I'll speak for NVK because I've talked to him privately. He thinks for noobs, it's fine for them to connect to random Electrum servers. Over Thor.
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No way, man. I totally I I I think the big problem with Electrum isn't
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how overwhelming the UI is, which it is. I think it's very difficult to set up your own server. Over I think that's a fucking pain in the ass. Over to our see, see, this is the key here. You go on their computer, okay, and then you install brew, and then you just do brew install like like Tor and that's it. So it's set, so every time they turn on their computer, stores is running, right, And then you you you set a in
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a way that they cannot they cannot
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connect over clear net, period. That's it. They're done.
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But, anyways, BlueWallet now does a good job,
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and and there is, there's an, what's the name? Explora
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from, blockstream.info.
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No.
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Blockstream. Yeah. Blockstream.info
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has Explora,
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which solves a lot of the the the block query stuff.
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Not great for you to be,
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how do you call it,
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doing clear net
347
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with all this block
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exploring services.
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But, you you know and you can connect over Tor. You can do VPN or something.
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But, but realistically
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speaking,
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for the person that just got a $100,
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for them to download a a a node is, like, retarded.
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Okay. New question.
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At what point
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is the money's you know, the value of the Bitcoin that this person has,
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enough that they need a hardware wallet?
358
00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:41.840
I think so I I think it's more less about the amount of money
359
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and more about their expectation
360
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and where they they wanna go. Right? If you think they're gonna sell their $100 worth of Bitcoin tomorrow,
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you know what? Don't don't don't bother learning. Right? Go have fun being poor.
362
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Okay.
363
00:27:57.990 --> 00:28:03.115
But but, you know, if your goal is to clip on keep on exploring this rabbit hole,
364
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then the first thing you should do is get a harder wallet.
365
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And and what's nice about that is not just the security you get. It it's it's like
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it it takes you it forces you through the rabbit hole.
367
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You're gonna have to learn how to do certain things that are not necessarily super simple,
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for a non
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decointer.
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And, you know, and then you get there.
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I'm sorry. I'm neck deep in these comments.
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Yeah. We're glad. Good. So
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so this is fucking fantastic. This is exactly what I was hoping for. I
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I just wanna shout out to all the freaks in the chat.
375
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This is what it's all about. Keep them coming.
376
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We want you to be a part of of every Citadel dispatch.
377
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:05.340
So I want to I mean, we just spent 30 minutes about
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you know, I I don't wanna be the mom in the room saying we're behind schedule, but we just spent 30 minutes. One second. One second.
379
00:29:12.495 --> 00:29:30.895
Because one zero two is is, like, screaming at me on Twitter saying that I got something wrong. I have to correct it. Oh, he finally figured out how to comment. I told him that I Apparently. I design I I decided on the Wasabi node thing. Wasabi doesn't need a node, apparently. Okay. Yeah. You But it's fixed. It's fixed.
380
00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:33.370
Everybody knows the truth now.
381
00:29:34.149 --> 00:29:38.490
There we go. Well, Wasabi doesn't need to know? That's the that's the beauty of Wasabi
382
00:29:39.095 --> 00:29:49.419
is that it's, like, a actually usable light client. Matt, I told you that 1 hour was going to be completely, utterly I just wanted I just wanted to do a shout out to 60102.
383
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Part of the reason why I came up with this format for this show
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is that he's able to
385
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comment live,
386
00:29:58.775 --> 00:30:04.290
without doxing his voice. So I'm glad that he he figured out how to do it. Maybe we should just unlock him.
387
00:30:05.490 --> 00:30:08.230
Why? Because he's finding out your, That's right.
388
00:30:09.330 --> 00:30:10.870
100% is a conspiracy.
389
00:30:12.265 --> 00:30:14.925
I could see it. Maybe. Let's go. You're one of the competitors,
390
00:30:15.465 --> 00:30:15.965
That's
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I love 6 zero four.
392
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Okay.
393
00:30:25.490 --> 00:30:25.890
So
394
00:30:26.674 --> 00:30:29.815
Next. Why are we all here? We're all here because of this fucking
395
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ledger hack.
396
00:30:32.755 --> 00:30:36.580
I mean, I I think that is is is really the talk right now.
397
00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:38.279
I noticed.
398
00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:43.799
We saw we saw a massive leak that happened in June.
399
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Ledger originally said
400
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that it was about 95100
401
00:30:49.885 --> 00:30:52.545
people were affected, I believe, if I recall correctly.
402
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:59.700
It turns out that there was over a 1000000 email addresses compromised and over 250,000
403
00:31:00.080 --> 00:31:00.900
mailing addresses.
404
00:31:02.554 --> 00:31:10.894
Mailing addresses, phone numbers, email addresses. I wish you the the list live on air? I have the list here. No. I have the list too. I I mean, we're not gonna just
405
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:14.660
start showing people's address. It's a joke. Fucking brutal.
406
00:31:17.620 --> 00:31:21.495
Joke. So there's there's, you know, pretty affluent people on there.
407
00:31:22.195 --> 00:31:24.375
You know, a lot of people who work for exchanges.
408
00:31:25.155 --> 00:31:29.310
You know, this is no joke. If you're on there or if your family member's on there,
409
00:31:30.250 --> 00:31:35.710
you know, you need to bring it up to them and, you know, discuss what you're gonna do to
410
00:31:36.235 --> 00:31:45.855
to try to mitigate it. It's it's like a really awful situation, but at this point, the toothpaste is out of tube, and that any determined sicko is gonna be able to get this data.
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00:31:46.590 --> 00:31:58.595
No matter what, you know, Ledger tries to do to tell people to pull it down, it's out there. Let let me just put a a little thing here. So advanced attackers can find you. Okay? It doesn't matter that you're new on the Internet,
412
00:31:59.294 --> 00:32:00.995
like, unless you're really,
413
00:32:01.375 --> 00:32:02.434
really, really good.
414
00:32:02.735 --> 00:32:03.235
Okay?
415
00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:07.020
More advanced attackers can find you. Yep.
416
00:32:07.660 --> 00:32:11.925
The problem with this list is that all the morons can find you now.
417
00:32:13.765 --> 00:32:15.785
Like, all the scam artists,
418
00:32:16.165 --> 00:32:17.145
all the
419
00:32:17.525 --> 00:32:19.945
the the people who don't have money for a PI,
420
00:32:20.740 --> 00:32:21.240
like,
421
00:32:21.540 --> 00:32:22.360
it's bad.
422
00:32:24.100 --> 00:32:31.115
Yeah. So here's the thing. Like, the attackers, right, they did this long campaign. They did it since June or July. Right? And,
423
00:32:31.735 --> 00:32:35.674
the fact that they even went to go and dump this on this hacking marketplace
424
00:32:36.375 --> 00:32:37.995
means that they've sort of exhausted,
425
00:32:39.130 --> 00:32:44.750
you know, the amount of Bitcoin they're probably gonna get out of people with the spear phishing. Yep. But what Rodolfo says,
426
00:32:46.295 --> 00:32:47.835
now you're gonna get the sickos,
427
00:32:48.215 --> 00:32:51.195
the common people that are gonna have this information.
428
00:32:51.575 --> 00:32:51.975
And,
429
00:32:52.855 --> 00:32:55.435
yeah, I I think we're gonna see some pretty bad incidents,
430
00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:56.440
unfortunately.
431
00:32:56.899 --> 00:33:01.320
Matt got linked to one, that was posted on Is it the math for Monero?
432
00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:06.055
Yeah. The math for Monero guy. Oh, Cohen is the great I, like, I love the creativity.
433
00:33:06.515 --> 00:33:11.335
Wait. I have it here. I have it here. Let me let me show the freaks the one we're talking about. That'd be awesome.
434
00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:19.380
Let's read it let's read it to the people. So this this this is for the people that that are listening on the podcast
435
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:20.180
feed.
436
00:33:21.355 --> 00:33:23.295
This was posted by a user
437
00:33:23.995 --> 00:33:24.655
on Reddit.
438
00:33:25.595 --> 00:33:31.055
It seems like this user is, like, a very legitimate user, so I I I don't think that they're
439
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:40.160
they're making this up, but, of course, they could be. But this is the type of threat you could see in this situation. He received a phone call that was was threatening kidnapping and murder.
440
00:33:41.455 --> 00:33:42.275
A male
441
00:33:42.735 --> 00:33:53.429
Anglo accent caller asked if his full name and claim to be a drug addict. He gave him his full address and said he knows I have a lot of Bitcoin. When asked how, he said my information had been leaked on the dark web.
442
00:33:53.890 --> 00:34:35.545
He played dumb and eventually says he purchased a hard a ledger hardware wallet and only loaded cons by them. He told me a sob story about how he's addicted to meth, is about to run out, and needs Monero to buy more. He demanded 10 XMR and said if it's not sent by midnight, he will show up at my house, kidnap me, and stab me to death. Any relatives living at my address, I guess, as well. I was able to record this phone call because I put him on speaker phone. I sent it to the police, filed the police report. They're gonna try and trace the car caller. I doubt they'll be able to, and sent a police car to wait outside, which I'm very grateful for. All of my doors, etcetera, are locked, and I have the officer's phone on speed dial. I just wanna warn everyone about the dangers of Ledger's recklessness. If there's a class action lawsuit, I will gladly join and submit this as evidence.
443
00:34:35.845 --> 00:34:42.185
So let me I I think I I need to put a caveat there, like, in this whole whole shebang
444
00:34:42.645 --> 00:34:44.105
is that listen.
445
00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:45.760
Data leak
446
00:34:46.220 --> 00:34:51.280
and hacks of servers. Okay? This is not new. This is gonna happen to everyone
447
00:34:51.580 --> 00:34:53.040
Yep. To all the companies.
448
00:34:53.454 --> 00:34:55.315
Yep. Okay? This is like,
449
00:34:56.815 --> 00:35:02.550
you know, your information is already in the dark web for sure. Right? Like a Sears catalog,
450
00:35:02.850 --> 00:35:04.630
a fucking Walmart website,
451
00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:11.395
you know, Amazon, whatever it is. Okay? It's already out there. The problem now is that, like,
452
00:35:11.695 --> 00:35:14.755
imagine if a company that sells high end safes.
453
00:35:15.455 --> 00:35:26.730
Okay. They lose their data. Well, people who buy high end safes are more likely to have something expensive at home. Right? So this is the problem with the with the ledger leak.
454
00:35:27.954 --> 00:35:34.855
So so now there's a lot of guys out there who, you you you don't know that there is something likely in somebody's home.
455
00:35:37.150 --> 00:35:39.650
Yeah. It's just a all around poor situation.
456
00:35:40.589 --> 00:35:42.130
You know, and it's a shame because
457
00:35:42.494 --> 00:35:43.454
I really have, like,
458
00:35:44.095 --> 00:35:55.160
you know, a good impression of the ledger wallets, I think, from the hardware wallets. It's got a lot of good stuff going from it with a secure element. You know, you can't just take a ledger and pull all the siege off it like you can with a treasure.
459
00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:01.245
But Yeah. A 100%. Gun to the head. I'd rather use a ledger than a treasure. Like Yeah.
460
00:36:01.545 --> 00:36:02.365
100%. No doubt.
461
00:36:02.745 --> 00:36:08.845
Yeah. But, yeah, this is a reputation killer, and, you know, it is gonna be weird. I I don't think the company,
462
00:36:10.410 --> 00:36:13.550
is gonna have a good time after this. It might be a killer.
463
00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:17.230
And, you know, they might have to end up selling the tech or restructuring,
464
00:36:18.835 --> 00:36:22.535
but, you know, this is like a giant veil from the side of, management.
465
00:36:23.555 --> 00:36:30.790
And, yeah, I don't know. Just moving forward, it's just gonna be interesting to see what companies do to not try to mitigate this.
466
00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:35.335
Rodolf, I gotta tip my hat to you for taking steps to,
467
00:36:36.535 --> 00:36:39.595
delete customer information after a certain amount of time.
468
00:36:40.215 --> 00:36:42.220
Hopefully, this, you know, inspires
469
00:36:44.540 --> 00:36:45.040
CryptoCloaks.
470
00:36:45.660 --> 00:36:46.960
It's doing something similar.
471
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:52.085
Yeah. It would be really awesome if this became standard in What? Industry.
472
00:36:52.385 --> 00:36:54.965
So this is what people don't realize though. Like,
473
00:36:55.265 --> 00:36:58.725
you know well, first of all, there's 2 things here. First of all, I think, ultimately,
474
00:36:59.910 --> 00:37:03.369
the world becomes a Bitcoin world. So I think this is a
475
00:37:04.309 --> 00:37:04.809
specifically,
476
00:37:05.430 --> 00:37:05.930
Bitcoin
477
00:37:06.390 --> 00:37:07.530
specific lists
478
00:37:08.235 --> 00:37:09.435
are a a
479
00:37:09.835 --> 00:37:13.295
is a short term pain point. Long term, everyone will be a Bitcoiner.
480
00:37:13.995 --> 00:37:33.744
If you're a rich person, you will assume people will assume you own Bitcoin. And if you don't own Bitcoin, they will assume you'll be able to obtain it. We already see this with the ransom attacks with, like, hospitals and stuff. They don't they don't care if the hospital owns Bitcoin. They ransom your data, and they expect you to go get some fucking Bitcoin. Yep. The second thing is, though, in this short term period,
481
00:37:36.040 --> 00:37:38.220
anyone selling product to Bitcoiners
482
00:37:39.240 --> 00:37:40.380
needs to prioritize
483
00:37:41.080 --> 00:37:42.540
privacy over marketing.
484
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:43.900
And and,
485
00:37:44.714 --> 00:37:50.655
yes, this is a personal responsibility movement, and users should be aware of the risks. They should use,
486
00:37:51.630 --> 00:38:03.505
the not they should use burner email addresses. They should use burner phone numbers. They shouldn't mail it to their home. You know, they should get a PO box or remailing address. But at the same time, the companies have to take steps to prioritize
487
00:38:03.805 --> 00:38:05.105
privacy because
488
00:38:05.645 --> 00:38:09.345
they're Bitcoin focused companies. And and we saw this ourselves at TFTC.
489
00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:11.349
We had the merch store,
490
00:38:12.049 --> 00:38:33.410
and we routinely delete the addresses because I've we're so fucking anal about it, and this hit us so hard that Marty just fucking deleted the merge store. Like, we just don't have a merge store. It's not worth it anymore. It's not worth it. Like, why have that data? Like, people have already learned their lessons the hard way about about holding keys hot, Bitcoin hot, but, really, this personal information,
491
00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:38.275
is is is is extremely valuable, if not just as valuable.
492
00:38:38.575 --> 00:38:39.315
Yeah. Definitely.
493
00:38:40.015 --> 00:38:41.155
If if you're storing
494
00:38:41.455 --> 00:38:42.435
sensitive data,
495
00:38:42.950 --> 00:38:49.370
you have to be able to keep it secure. If you can't not fucking store it. It's it's very tricky. Right? Because
496
00:38:49.910 --> 00:38:51.370
there's there's 2
497
00:38:51.805 --> 00:39:08.965
2 aspects of this. Like, forgetting about privacy for a second. Right? There's 2 aspect of this that maybe people don't understand is that, like so, you know, CoinKite, you know, we sell fucked enough shit of devices everywhere in the world, both credit card and and and, and Bitcoin for years. Right?
498
00:39:10.225 --> 00:39:19.630
And there's 2 problems. Right? Like, one problem is the marketing problem, which was not something we care, so we never really had any marketing system
499
00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:28.345
or setup or a newsletter or nothing. I don't think anybody ever got an email from us. So so that part was sort of, like, self resolved.
500
00:39:28.805 --> 00:39:35.430
Right? Even though we have that checkbox saying, you know, if you wanna receive spam checkbox here kinda thing, we actually never used that.
501
00:39:36.150 --> 00:39:37.930
So we never had the emails
502
00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:41.609
on a on a separate marketing system. So most companies,
503
00:39:42.230 --> 00:39:42.970
they will
504
00:39:43.474 --> 00:39:46.855
take those emails from their their shopping system into
505
00:39:47.395 --> 00:39:50.775
a a marketing system. Right? That's what Ledger did.
506
00:39:52.140 --> 00:39:55.920
And I'm sure sort of probably Trezor does that. I'm sure all of them do that.
507
00:39:56.700 --> 00:40:00.214
And by the way, those affiliate links that people use,
508
00:40:00.915 --> 00:40:01.415
okay,
509
00:40:01.954 --> 00:40:03.575
for selling harder wallets,
510
00:40:04.434 --> 00:40:06.135
it it's way worse
511
00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:07.980
because those
512
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:11.420
they're like edge company that tracks
513
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:13.180
the nose if you're pregnant
514
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:15.660
plus your personal information.
515
00:40:16.235 --> 00:40:16.895
Okay? So,
516
00:40:17.995 --> 00:40:21.455
affiliate programs from, like, all Bitcoin companies,
517
00:40:22.635 --> 00:40:24.575
just wait for that to hit the fan.
518
00:40:25.820 --> 00:40:27.280
Okay. So that's one part.
519
00:40:27.740 --> 00:40:32.640
Now the other problem is, like, depending on the country, you have, like, tax
520
00:40:34.115 --> 00:40:37.494
bookkeeping requirements. Right? This is the problem that we have,
521
00:40:38.434 --> 00:40:42.375
in in Canada. Canada, the government requires us to keep
522
00:40:43.109 --> 00:40:43.930
invoice data
523
00:40:44.310 --> 00:40:47.210
for 7 years or 8 years. Can't remember now.
524
00:40:48.869 --> 00:40:49.369
And
525
00:40:49.725 --> 00:40:51.025
they don't specify
526
00:40:51.725 --> 00:40:53.745
exactly what data that is,
527
00:40:54.685 --> 00:41:02.660
but we kinda know because we we've been audit before many years ago being an early Bitcoin company, EA, you get the white glove treatment.
528
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:04.500
And
529
00:41:06.905 --> 00:41:09.305
you you have to sometimes provide what's called,
530
00:41:10.265 --> 00:41:16.820
source of funds. Right? So they they want to just make sure that all those invoices you have are are not like,
531
00:41:17.300 --> 00:41:20.440
you know, people that don't exist in is a money laundering operation. Right?
532
00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:21.960
So
533
00:41:22.660 --> 00:41:23.160
after
534
00:41:23.925 --> 00:41:26.984
some research, we we sort of resolved the problem,
535
00:41:27.845 --> 00:41:29.065
by having people,
536
00:41:30.085 --> 00:41:35.460
actively request your data to be deleted from our system. That's been available for long time.
537
00:41:35.839 --> 00:41:40.455
So you could just ping us and say, hey. Delete all my information, and we did that.
538
00:41:42.135 --> 00:41:46.635
Because then we also have the record of people requesting us to delete the information. Right?
539
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:49.500
But then,
540
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:51.420
you know, after this ledger
541
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:53.020
chit show,
542
00:41:54.680 --> 00:41:59.575
you know, if every single customer is requesting us to delete their information,
543
00:42:01.555 --> 00:42:03.330
you know what? Fuck it.
544
00:42:04.290 --> 00:42:08.550
It's like, you know what? Like, if the government has a problem, so be it. And and so,
545
00:42:08.930 --> 00:42:12.130
you know, we're we're honest company. We pay our taxes, so,
546
00:42:13.315 --> 00:42:16.215
we're gonna go with that and and see where that takes us.
547
00:42:16.835 --> 00:42:21.335
The way I look at it, I mean, at the end at the end of the day, these governments are obviously
548
00:42:21.790 --> 00:42:24.050
the the way they're set up is they're set up to
549
00:42:24.990 --> 00:42:27.490
to to prioritize data collection over,
550
00:42:28.910 --> 00:42:29.650
data privacy.
551
00:42:29.955 --> 00:42:36.135
They, like, they, like, force you to keep as much data as possible. This is not a this this comes like, this this accounting laws,
552
00:42:36.435 --> 00:42:41.660
this this money laws. I'm talking about modern money laundering shit. I'm talking about just reasonably,
553
00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:45.099
like, older stuff, like, basic tax law. Right?
554
00:42:46.415 --> 00:43:08.184
This stuff comes from, like, you know, the 19 twenties, man. It's like, you know, who's gonna, like, storm into a warehouse and go read through a 1,000 invoices in paper written by hand? Right? What I'm saying. Right? Like, if if you're gonna have to keep that data, like, you should keep it securely. Right? Like, keep it offline. Treat it like Bitcoin. Right? Like, with Bitcoin, we've learned our lesson. Like, people don't
555
00:43:08.805 --> 00:43:10.825
leave hot wallets just lying around with 1,000 of Bitcoin anymore. Here comes the
556
00:43:14.050 --> 00:43:19.245
honest truth about this problem is that, like, it doesn't matter that we delete the data.
557
00:43:19.725 --> 00:43:29.080
Right? Because there could 2 things can happen. Right? One thing is you could have a leak in the system, right, where somebody's siphoning that data before you delete it.
558
00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:30.140
Okay?
559
00:43:30.600 --> 00:43:36.140
Mhmm. 2, the credit card company and the credit card processor have that information if you pay the credit card.
560
00:43:36.695 --> 00:43:39.675
Okay? And then there is also the shipping carriers.
561
00:43:40.695 --> 00:43:43.195
Right? So UPS, FedEx, DHL,
562
00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:48.960
you know, USPS, all this shit. Right? They all have this data. Mhmm. So
563
00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:50.960
the ultimate
564
00:43:51.675 --> 00:43:54.575
issue here is that you cannot trust anyone.
565
00:43:54.875 --> 00:44:03.660
You have to have a PO box. Okay. So you pay Bitcoin, you send to a PO box with an alias or to a business. Send it to your office.
566
00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:05.660
Right? Like, it's perfect.
567
00:44:06.040 --> 00:44:12.724
Mhmm. Even under your own name, it's not the end of the world. Send it to your ex right before you break up with her. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.
568
00:44:13.684 --> 00:44:22.770
It's the best advice is to not even mail it at all if I mean, once conferences start rolling up again, hopefully, fingers crossed soon. Look who joined us. Our boy Asqui is here.
569
00:44:25.975 --> 00:44:28.715
Hey. Yep. So that brings me to another
570
00:44:29.015 --> 00:44:31.195
another thing. Right? So today,
571
00:44:31.495 --> 00:44:33.275
Jameson Lop was grandstanding,
572
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:38.619
or not grandstanding, but he I felt like he was throwing stones from a glass house a bit,
573
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:58.380
because he said that it was almost victim blaming. He said that people should take personal responsibility and not provide Ledger with this information, and I do agree. And and this is something that Adopa just said. With the sentiment. I do agree with the sentiment that you can't trust anyone. You don't trust, verify. Take it into your own hands, personal responsibility. But one second here.
574
00:44:58.840 --> 00:44:59.340
Casa
575
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:00.700
as a service,
576
00:45:01.935 --> 00:45:06.275
you know, they know all of your intimate transaction information. Like, if you don't
577
00:45:06.735 --> 00:45:12.960
if if you don't use your own node to interact with the Bitcoin network, you're trusting the node you're using. And in Casa's situation,
578
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:24.214
you're trusting their node. And they have all of this super intimate financial transaction information. And all those things you just said about all those other parties that have it Yep. In this case, isn't really
579
00:45:24.994 --> 00:45:36.685
isn't really that. If Casa did it right, and you can't really tell because their app's closed source. But if they did it right, only they have that information. But there's no way to use their product without trusting them with that inter intimate information. So I think
580
00:45:37.645 --> 00:45:40.045
and and and that's not to dismiss the company. Like, I think there's a place for a trust based relationship. It just needs to be disclosed properly. Okay. Like, the trade offs need to be disclosed. Number There's
581
00:45:43.805 --> 00:45:44.270
Law
582
00:45:54.974 --> 00:45:56.994
Matt is a 100% right about,
583
00:45:57.375 --> 00:45:59.234
them knowing your transaction history.
584
00:45:59.615 --> 00:46:04.820
But at the same time, you gotta give Casa props because if you want to, you can use Yes. Your service
585
00:46:06.080 --> 00:46:06.580
pseudonymously.
586
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:08.900
Sorry. Hard word to say.
587
00:46:09.520 --> 00:46:22.615
And they don't need to know who you actually are in, you know, the real world. So my The average user isn't gonna be able to use it that way. They're looking at IP addresses, their their email address, phone number, everything. It's just like
588
00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:27.800
My my personal view on this is is kinda simple, really. So
589
00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:31.320
Casa is a fantastic service
590
00:46:32.464 --> 00:46:36.565
if you use the seed. I don't like the seedless thing.
591
00:46:37.425 --> 00:46:39.285
But aside from that, it's a good service
592
00:46:39.859 --> 00:46:42.519
for people that already have doxxed coins.
593
00:46:43.779 --> 00:46:48.039
Okay? So there is plenty of people in the world,
594
00:46:48.345 --> 00:46:52.445
okay, that we will not have or will not care about
595
00:46:53.385 --> 00:46:53.885
doxing
596
00:46:54.185 --> 00:46:56.765
concerns. Right? You're a fund manager,
597
00:46:57.460 --> 00:46:58.520
You are a fund.
598
00:46:59.140 --> 00:47:06.119
You are somebody who you know, listen. Like, Bitcoin is not your full time thing. You know? Like, me you're you're just
599
00:47:06.535 --> 00:47:11.595
some dude that has a lot of investments and, you know, you don't wanna have to think about
600
00:47:12.055 --> 00:47:13.230
all kinds of, like,
601
00:47:14.190 --> 00:47:15.490
Bitcoin security things,
602
00:47:15.790 --> 00:47:17.490
you know, and you buy on Gemini
603
00:47:17.790 --> 00:47:18.530
or Coinbase
604
00:47:19.150 --> 00:47:20.050
every week.
605
00:47:20.830 --> 00:47:22.105
You know what I mean? And
606
00:47:22.665 --> 00:47:25.005
and you don't mind even giving your name to Casa.
607
00:47:25.545 --> 00:47:34.240
You know, it's like, again, right, different solutions for different people. It works for that. Yeah. I I just I think it's a Can't you say that same thing about Ledger?
608
00:47:35.900 --> 00:47:42.545
Well, Ledger is Ledger is to to say again, right, I still think Ledger, even with this leak, is better than Trezor.
609
00:47:43.245 --> 00:47:46.839
Yeah. The hardware, undeniable. I mean, seriously. It's like you know,
610
00:47:47.220 --> 00:47:48.520
job on the disclosures.
611
00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:50.680
We have record of users
612
00:47:51.140 --> 00:47:58.235
who, after the leak, they went to Ledger. They asked, hey. Was I in the leak? They said no. And then they download the list yesterday,
613
00:47:58.535 --> 00:48:00.235
and they find out their name's in there.
614
00:48:00.935 --> 00:48:01.435
Right?
615
00:48:01.815 --> 00:48:02.315
Yep.
616
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:04.840
They did a bad job. Yeah. Listen.
617
00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:06.600
Like, honestly, like,
618
00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:08.040
shit shit happens.
619
00:48:08.740 --> 00:48:11.000
Like, it's one of those, like, honestly,
620
00:48:11.405 --> 00:48:16.145
I mean, they they could have handled their PR better. They could have handled a lot of shit better. Yeah.
621
00:48:16.605 --> 00:48:21.670
Like but but the but, you know, it's also not easy. Right? Like, to be
622
00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:22.630
it's
623
00:48:23.089 --> 00:48:26.230
not easy to be a company in the Bitcoin space dealing with Bitcoiners.
624
00:48:26.930 --> 00:48:28.230
God knows. I know.
625
00:48:29.505 --> 00:48:36.405
And and it's not easy to to deal with data leaks, man. Like, you you just you know, it's not an easy thing to handle. Right? Yeah.
626
00:48:37.390 --> 00:48:40.369
At the end of the day, you're gonna get fucked no matter what.
627
00:48:42.510 --> 00:48:42.990
So,
628
00:48:43.470 --> 00:48:44.930
so so there is that.
629
00:48:46.015 --> 00:48:46.495
But,
630
00:48:46.895 --> 00:48:47.795
but I
631
00:48:48.095 --> 00:48:53.840
I I I I wouldn't write them off. It's like I I still think that that, like
632
00:48:54.140 --> 00:49:03.255
No. I will I will I'm a niche product. Right? I mean I mean, like, you know make the right mitigations and Yes. You know, keep putting out hardware wallets. Of course, we don't wanna see any,
633
00:49:03.635 --> 00:49:05.415
you know, companies in the space
634
00:49:05.715 --> 00:49:08.390
fall, especially not Ledger. You know? We like their wallet.
635
00:49:09.269 --> 00:49:12.010
But, you know, it's gonna be a little tricky for them to traverse,
636
00:49:13.190 --> 00:49:17.769
you know Listen. A shitcoiner still need a a safe a safe wallet. Right? Like,
637
00:49:18.855 --> 00:49:30.090
this happens this is the problem that I have. Right? Like, I make a product that's Bitcoin only. Cold card is Bitcoin only. And, you know, I have plenty of customers that when I hold shitcoin and then they ask.
638
00:49:30.710 --> 00:49:37.525
So what's the next best thing that you're gonna suggest I use? I say, well, you get a ledger because Trezor is responsibly
639
00:49:37.984 --> 00:49:38.484
unsafe.
640
00:49:39.665 --> 00:49:46.070
So 6102 has a question real quick. He's asking, in which way is ledger hardware better than Trezor? You wanna take that, Rodolfo?
641
00:49:46.850 --> 00:49:49.110
Well, one is Secured Auto, one is not.
642
00:49:51.490 --> 00:49:54.550
Yes. 6102. Basically, if you get a hands on,
643
00:49:54.915 --> 00:49:56.775
a Trezor and It's gone. It's
644
00:49:57.955 --> 00:50:05.440
not the model t and it's not encrypted, you could just rip the keys off their physical access point. And and even if it is a model t, I mean, like,
645
00:50:07.660 --> 00:50:15.875
it's like it's the whole sort of, like, the the the whole architecture, the whole mentality of all the product is just, in my view, unsafe.
646
00:50:18.670 --> 00:50:19.730
Yeah. Yeah.
647
00:50:20.910 --> 00:50:25.625
I mean, just to clarify here, the TREASER t I mean, Evan just kind of,
648
00:50:26.665 --> 00:50:31.485
pointed to it. Is the Trezor t has this SD card slot, so you can technically encrypt
649
00:50:32.105 --> 00:50:36.580
the secret with the SD card. And if you keep the SD card in a separate place,
650
00:50:38.160 --> 00:50:42.420
than than the device, then you have some physical security added there.
651
00:50:42.984 --> 00:50:56.010
Even need both the SD card and the device to pull the seed. Yeah. But that's like patch. Like, it's like it's like trying to put a Band Aid on, like the the problem is when you have a device that doesn't have a secure element, you cannot trust anything.
652
00:50:56.630 --> 00:51:03.555
Right? You cannot trust the clock on it. You cannot trust the the signing. You cannot trust the crypto on it. You can't trust anything.
653
00:51:04.174 --> 00:51:04.674
Seriously.
654
00:51:05.055 --> 00:51:10.970
Somebody could change the firmware on that thing, and it's it's like it's there's nothing there to to anything.
655
00:51:11.270 --> 00:51:14.250
Wait. So Rodolfo, I have a good question for you live on air.
656
00:51:14.950 --> 00:51:17.675
Would you say that a air gapped,
657
00:51:18.155 --> 00:51:18.655
Linux
658
00:51:18.955 --> 00:51:22.095
computer would be better than a Trezor running core?
659
00:51:22.475 --> 00:51:23.215
Oh, god.
660
00:51:23.915 --> 00:51:25.615
So Linux is the first shitcoin.
661
00:51:27.020 --> 00:51:27.820
Yeah. Yeah. Regardless of
662
00:51:28.540 --> 00:51:33.840
is the only true OS. Free BSD is Bitcoin. Linux is, like, essentially Litecoin.
663
00:51:37.055 --> 00:51:37.555
Boy,
664
00:51:37.934 --> 00:51:42.355
I don't know. I mean, honestly, this is not not an easy question.
665
00:51:44.750 --> 00:51:47.650
The the the problem with with, like, general purpose computers,
666
00:51:47.950 --> 00:51:50.050
you cannot trust them. Right? Because
667
00:51:50.715 --> 00:51:52.655
you don't you cannot trust the disk encryption.
668
00:51:53.675 --> 00:51:56.255
Like, forget about the super advanced exfiltration
669
00:51:56.795 --> 00:51:59.560
over air gap stuff. Right? But just like
670
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:05.500
but just like the the basics. Right? Like, you just can't trust a disc encryption unless
671
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:08.700
you're running FreeBSD and you built Geely by yourself.
672
00:52:09.045 --> 00:52:09.545
Like,
673
00:52:10.405 --> 00:52:22.960
it's just not simple stuff. Right? Like, average people, even advanced people, when I hear them talk, it's cringey. Like, it's like you don't know what you're talking about. You're gonna get pound. Right? Like, your your maid is gonna take your laptop
674
00:52:23.420 --> 00:52:28.675
and and it's gonna take your keys out of there. Right? Remember, it's gonna we're gonna get back to, like, you know,
675
00:52:28.975 --> 00:52:32.435
2011 when people used to get their their wallet dot
676
00:52:32.975 --> 00:52:35.090
d a t files taken from them.
677
00:52:37.090 --> 00:52:37.590
Sorry.
678
00:52:37.970 --> 00:52:39.190
Brady Swenson.
679
00:52:39.810 --> 00:52:41.110
No. We're not OFA.
680
00:52:44.085 --> 00:52:49.180
I mean, I think you got you you nailed, like, an important point here. Right? Like, there's a reason hardware wallets exist.
681
00:52:49.660 --> 00:52:50.160
Mhmm.
682
00:52:50.780 --> 00:52:54.800
I the It's the market has spoken. Right? People are not getting pound.
683
00:52:55.900 --> 00:53:00.595
I I remember back in the day, it was just, like, on Reddit. Like, every day, like, people were getting fucking hit.
684
00:53:01.375 --> 00:53:03.715
I mean, that was probably for the karma, but yes.
685
00:53:07.190 --> 00:53:09.930
The other thing that I I feel like we missed,
686
00:53:11.589 --> 00:53:14.250
is that the mailing addresses get a lot of publicity.
687
00:53:15.895 --> 00:53:17.835
But these phishing attacks,
688
00:53:18.215 --> 00:53:24.635
it's like it the the phishing attacks are super successful. Like, I Because the UX of this wallet
689
00:53:25.049 --> 00:53:27.789
suck. I just had I had someone today,
690
00:53:28.490 --> 00:53:31.630
right, who wasn't using a hardware wallet, was using Wasabi.
691
00:53:32.525 --> 00:53:37.665
Mhmm. So that takes out the hardware wallet FUD that hardware wallets are more likely to get phished.
692
00:53:38.045 --> 00:53:41.825
Mhmm. And he was having an issue with Wasabi, so he went to the Wasabi Telegram chat,
693
00:53:42.990 --> 00:53:45.410
And a scammer pushed over to him,
694
00:53:45.790 --> 00:53:49.650
and a scammer sent him a link to say that he could help him,
695
00:53:49.950 --> 00:53:55.515
and he put in his seed. And as soon as he put in his seed, the scammer now has access to his funds.
696
00:53:56.615 --> 00:53:58.474
Luckily, I answered his DM,
697
00:53:59.070 --> 00:54:05.650
and we fucking saved his 10 k before the scammer sent it. Geez. But, like, that's ridiculous. Right? Like, that's fucking
698
00:54:06.454 --> 00:54:09.994
and and Do you know why, man? This this cluster I'm showing right now
699
00:54:10.535 --> 00:54:16.210
is a single we were talking about the ledger the ledger dump, data dump that's been circulated
700
00:54:16.590 --> 00:54:27.235
between multiple hackers. Right? So it's it's sold on the dark web, and then it's resold and resold. So there's a bunch of different groups right now trying to exploit it. This is one group, and they've already received
701
00:54:28.095 --> 00:54:29.235
approximately 23
702
00:54:29.535 --> 00:54:30.735
Bitcoin. Nice.
703
00:54:31.295 --> 00:54:34.435
This is according to Ergo BTC from the OXT team,
704
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:39.380
over at, like, Samurais Research division. But this is one group, and they've they've
705
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.340
they've gotten 23 fucking Bitcoin.
706
00:54:43.714 --> 00:54:47.654
So so we're talking we're we're talking here at at $600,000.
707
00:54:48.515 --> 00:54:49.335
Right? $700,000.
708
00:54:49.954 --> 00:54:51.894
I I don't do good math live.
709
00:54:52.809 --> 00:55:12.670
But, like, this idea this idea, like, there's definitely a threat of people's home addresses and, like, people coming in and trying to do things there, but there's such low hanging fruit for these hackers to just send out the hundreds of thousands of emails and just hope that some some people put in their seed and then that's that. I still receive
710
00:55:13.050 --> 00:55:15.869
email, phishing email from Mon Cox email.
711
00:55:16.970 --> 00:55:23.795
So these lists are gonna be sold and resold and resold and resold and resold. It's forever now,
712
00:55:24.654 --> 00:55:25.154
right?
713
00:55:25.590 --> 00:55:31.690
So, but the problem again, right, is the wallets, right? I mean, yeah, sure, people are idiots,
714
00:55:32.710 --> 00:55:36.615
but aside from that, which is just human nature, it's like,
715
00:55:37.315 --> 00:55:45.450
you know, you have harder wallets that tell users to type, like, pass phrases on our computer or type seeds or type pins.
716
00:55:45.910 --> 00:55:46.410
Like,
717
00:55:47.030 --> 00:55:47.530
it's
718
00:55:47.990 --> 00:55:52.635
like if you tell your users that they have to type their passphrase on a computer, somebody
719
00:55:53.095 --> 00:56:00.960
comes and tells them, hey. Oh, you're gonna lose all your money if you don't type your seed right now on the computer for me. Right? They're gonna believe it.
720
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:14.455
So it it starts with, like, you know, for example, like, Trezza 1 shouldn't be sold anymore. Right? Like, it's not a product that's safe, and and it's it's a product that tells people to type secrets on the computer. Yeah. I think we could all agree about that.
721
00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:22.505
It should be discontinued, and they should only sell the model to you. But then and then this idea this idea that it's the seed's fault is fucking ridiculous
722
00:56:26.102 --> 00:56:26.602
No.
723
00:56:30.020 --> 00:56:34.280
No. I mean, like, it's so insane. Right? Yes. It's very simple. Right? Bits
724
00:56:34.980 --> 00:56:36.440
rot and burn.
725
00:56:36.820 --> 00:56:38.205
Yep. That's why we use
726
00:56:38.625 --> 00:56:39.125
sats.
727
00:56:39.545 --> 00:56:40.425
Well, seriously, it's a
728
00:56:41.305 --> 00:56:41.805
fuck
729
00:56:42.905 --> 00:56:45.085
you. Yes. Bits are terrible.
730
00:56:45.430 --> 00:56:59.905
I think what it comes down to is education. So, like, if you're gifting your friend a hardware wallet, you know, they need to be told of this. Never enter in your seed if you're prompted, and only do it of your own volition when you're, you know, moving devices or checking a backup.
731
00:57:00.650 --> 00:57:03.050
And, yeah, just put that seed on metal and,
732
00:57:03.770 --> 00:57:10.765
I mean, what what else could you do, really? Well, I think one under discussed aspect of it is is,
733
00:57:11.464 --> 00:57:17.565
you know and it's part of the Huddl mentality is this idea that you set up your fucking hardware wallet in 2017,
734
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:20.980
and maybe you go over and help your friend do it.
735
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:35.695
They write down their seed, and then they just leave it. You know, maybe they're adding to it, but they're just looking up receive addresses on whatever software they're using, but they're not using it and getting comfortable with it. So in 3 years, when they get that phishing email that says,
736
00:57:36.450 --> 00:57:38.150
you know, funds have been transferred,
737
00:57:38.690 --> 00:57:40.070
and you need to immediately
738
00:57:40.370 --> 00:57:44.445
click this link, they're not comfortable. They don't realize that that's not the proper
739
00:57:54.510 --> 00:58:04.525
receiving and restoring and backing up and doing the whole fucking process over and over again and getting comfortable with it. Yeah. That's why that's why when we designed the UX of Coldcard,
740
00:58:05.704 --> 00:58:09.244
you know, we went all top gun on it. Right? Like, there is the danger zone.
741
00:58:10.345 --> 00:58:11.085
It's like
742
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:12.240
it's
743
00:58:12.560 --> 00:58:20.980
you know, for all the grief that we get about, oh, cold card is not easy to use. Yes. It is. But it also the things that are hard to use are meant to be hard to use.
744
00:58:21.345 --> 00:58:22.164
You're not supposed
745
00:58:22.785 --> 00:58:25.444
to go look at your seed for no fucking reason
746
00:58:25.825 --> 00:58:26.325
unless
747
00:58:26.865 --> 00:58:28.644
your metal backup has melted
748
00:58:29.105 --> 00:58:37.290
and you made bullets out of it. Right? Like, there there there is no reason for a person to ever need we almost omitted that completely from the device,
749
00:58:38.635 --> 00:58:44.735
but but then we created the danger zone part so we can put all the things that we wanted to just remove, but then people might need once.
750
00:58:45.115 --> 00:58:45.935
It's like,
751
00:58:47.170 --> 00:58:51.670
don't don't go look at your seed. Don't make it easy for people to see their seed
752
00:58:52.369 --> 00:58:57.805
because, again, people are idiots, and and they're gonna do it, and they're gonna give it to a scammer.
753
00:58:58.345 --> 00:58:58.845
Yeah.
754
00:59:01.810 --> 00:59:06.230
Who just thought that being your own bank would entail so much personal responsibility?
755
00:59:07.885 --> 00:59:10.385
Okay. So I think we successfully hit
756
00:59:10.685 --> 00:59:11.585
current steps,
757
00:59:12.285 --> 00:59:16.225
that that steps that people should avoid this kind of risk in the future,
758
00:59:16.730 --> 00:59:22.030
not, you know, trying to hold their personal information as close to their chest as possible, treat it as sacred.
759
00:59:22.970 --> 00:59:24.670
Basically, every life event,
760
00:59:25.290 --> 00:59:30.335
you have to, like, treat as a privacy focused event going forward. Part of the thing that people don't realize
761
00:59:30.875 --> 00:59:37.120
is maybe your email address was leaked in the ledger thing. We have a a 1000000 email addresses were leaked only only.
762
00:59:37.660 --> 00:59:45.295
250,000 addresses were leaked. But if your address was leaked alongside your email in, like, a Ticketmaster leak or
763
00:59:46.315 --> 00:59:49.375
Expedia leak or some other bullshit leak, then
764
00:59:49.809 --> 00:59:54.869
the the malicious individual can cross reference. So if you use the same exact email address,
765
00:59:55.890 --> 01:00:01.675
and and your address was leaked somewhere else, then all of a sudden they have that information or your phone number, they have that information.
766
01:00:02.055 --> 01:00:04.715
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. My email is there. I bought their wallet
767
01:00:05.415 --> 01:00:05.915
about
768
01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:09.200
6 years ago, 7 years ago.
769
01:00:09.740 --> 01:00:10.880
My email is there.
770
01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:12.560
Damn it.
771
01:00:17.645 --> 01:00:19.665
But my email is not linked to anything else.
772
01:00:24.799 --> 01:00:27.859
Do you have an answer to this? What to which one?
773
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:35.145
Oh, so Electrum on malware infested Boomer PC is okay, but Trezor is not. Yes.
774
01:00:37.285 --> 01:00:39.685
No. It's not. I'm joking. It's like,
775
01:00:40.450 --> 01:00:46.790
somebody who works for Trezor or something. No. It's a cool it is I'm just teasing you. Deal wallet. I'm just teasing.
776
01:00:48.145 --> 01:00:59.270
Just just note your trade offs with whatever you go with. Right? Exactly. Trezor, you need the physical access. Right? If, you know, if you know your broker, there's a lot of points. No. But I think I think there's a caveat that's important on this. Okay?
777
01:00:59.650 --> 01:01:03.030
A hardware wallet that's not secure is giving you a false sense of security,
778
01:01:03.945 --> 01:01:05.565
and this is very important
779
01:01:06.025 --> 01:01:07.165
to sort of realize.
780
01:01:08.745 --> 01:01:09.245
Like,
781
01:01:10.425 --> 01:01:14.430
if you like, the minimum that I would say is, like, if you have a harder wallet,
782
01:01:15.130 --> 01:01:18.110
the harder wallet has to survive a couple days
783
01:01:18.464 --> 01:01:19.285
in a lab.
784
01:01:19.984 --> 01:01:24.244
Right? Because listen, given an infinite resources, anything's breakable, or anything,
785
01:01:25.105 --> 01:01:25.590
but
786
01:01:26.310 --> 01:01:30.170
most devices will survive with actually low rate
787
01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:31.750
of of of,
788
01:01:32.550 --> 01:01:33.290
of destruction.
789
01:01:33.765 --> 01:01:37.705
Right? So so if they sorry. High rate of destruction. So when they try to
790
01:01:38.485 --> 01:01:44.690
on our case, if they take the the the SC out, they have to shave the bottom of it, and then they have to beam a $250,000
791
01:01:46.030 --> 01:01:51.410
laser to it, and then they have to get it out, and then they have to pair the secret of the other chip. Right? So
792
01:01:52.015 --> 01:01:57.635
in this whole ordeal, you have to have a $1,000,000 plus lab and it's gonna take a few days. Right?
793
01:01:57.935 --> 01:02:00.835
That gives you time to get your money out.
794
01:02:01.900 --> 01:02:02.400
Right?
795
01:02:04.140 --> 01:02:12.685
And and you're getting other security features because of the SE. Right? Like, you can trust the firmware better. There's other things that you get out of it. Mhmm.
796
01:02:13.005 --> 01:02:16.625
The problem that I have with a toaster like hardware wallet
797
01:02:17.390 --> 01:02:21.330
is literally is the same chip as a toaster. Right? We kinda have the same MCU.
798
01:02:22.750 --> 01:02:24.290
Microwaves would have that chip
799
01:02:24.645 --> 01:02:24.965
Very
800
01:02:25.605 --> 01:02:26.585
with an MCU.
801
01:02:26.964 --> 01:02:28.665
MCU is the general purpose,
802
01:02:29.525 --> 01:02:30.025
microchip.
803
01:02:30.484 --> 01:02:39.770
So it's the one that it can put open source in it. Let's put it this way. The chip itself, it's like the specs are open, but, like, calling open source is a stretch.
804
01:02:41.350 --> 01:02:41.850
So,
805
01:02:43.125 --> 01:02:46.425
so anyway, so so the problem with those is that you can cheat everything.
806
01:02:47.045 --> 01:02:49.945
There's just no security of anything.
807
01:02:50.250 --> 01:02:53.869
You're just sort of, like, trying to skate on ice with, like, socks.
808
01:02:54.250 --> 01:02:58.430
Right? That's the problem with, with an MCU based hardware.
809
01:02:58.730 --> 01:02:59.230
No
810
01:02:59.665 --> 01:03:01.045
no SC at all.
811
01:03:03.265 --> 01:03:07.125
And, that that's the Trezor situation. It's kinda tragic, really.
812
01:03:10.720 --> 01:03:15.220
I mean, I think Satoshi Vermulen makes a point. Right? Like, the ideal goal ultimately
813
01:03:15.680 --> 01:03:24.985
is multi sick, right, with multiple different types of signers. It solves a lot of these issues. Yes and no. Right? Because I see more people fucking themselves over
814
01:03:25.310 --> 01:03:26.290
than getting robbed.
815
01:03:26.910 --> 01:03:35.375
That that's the most common ticket out of the people who lose money is I did something wrong and I screwed myself out of my money, especially multisig.
816
01:03:36.955 --> 01:03:43.775
I think, what BlueWallet is doing now is similar to what Copay did back in the day and similar to what Quinkite did way back in the day,
817
01:03:44.180 --> 01:03:47.160
which is like it's it's a more reasonable way of doing multisig.
818
01:03:48.340 --> 01:03:51.080
It's getting there. It's not quite there yet.
819
01:03:52.315 --> 01:03:54.335
I think I think it's gonna get better,
820
01:03:56.075 --> 01:03:56.575
and
821
01:03:56.875 --> 01:04:07.210
and in my in my like, especially the market pushing and people having more money and people willing to spend more money, I think the market is gonna come up with a very good multisig solution
822
01:04:07.885 --> 01:04:08.625
that is non,
823
01:04:10.445 --> 01:04:11.745
that's non doxing,
824
01:04:13.085 --> 01:04:18.000
in a year or 2. I think things will will come out. Like, the market will provide solutions,
825
01:04:18.940 --> 01:04:28.445
for these things, and and also for privacy problems too. This is all market problem. Right? Like, eventually, there will be better ways for you to ship stuff without doxing yourself
826
01:04:28.905 --> 01:04:31.885
because somebody's gonna come up with a service to solve that problem.
827
01:04:32.470 --> 01:04:33.770
The same with multisig,
828
01:04:35.590 --> 01:04:38.410
these things are not easy problems. They really aren't,
829
01:04:39.190 --> 01:04:41.690
and and especially with the current tech for multisig,
830
01:04:42.375 --> 01:04:51.950
maybe with Taproot, and once you have threshold signatures, you can do a lot more interesting shit. Mhmm. Maybe that's what's gonna happen. Right? Like, it's very possible
831
01:04:52.890 --> 01:04:54.030
that we're gonna leap,
832
01:04:54.970 --> 01:04:56.590
multi sig white adoption
833
01:04:57.290 --> 01:04:58.974
for the average person.
834
01:04:59.835 --> 01:05:08.120
Oh, like, most big businesses, most exchanges use multi sig. Right? I'm talking about just, like, average people or self custody kinda deal.
835
01:05:08.580 --> 01:05:13.480
I think we might end up leaping multisig into Moosig, which is the Taproot stuff.
836
01:05:14.855 --> 01:05:19.035
That that has a lot more interesting things that you can do without Doxy,
837
01:05:19.655 --> 01:05:25.720
but we're we're far from it. Long ways to go, different standards, and how different Oh, different universe.
838
01:05:26.260 --> 01:05:30.440
Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other can of worms. But important points that you, made there, you know,
839
01:05:31.005 --> 01:05:31.505
complexity.
840
01:05:32.205 --> 01:05:38.224
You know, you don't wanna be shooting yourself in the foot. If you do a multisig setup, you know, test it thoroughly before you do it.
841
01:05:38.605 --> 01:05:39.665
But, you know, ultimately,
842
01:05:39.965 --> 01:05:46.450
multisig is gonna be a great solution, especially if you don't trust shysters like this Rodolfo guy over here, you know, but a different,
843
01:05:46.830 --> 01:05:47.330
manufacturers,
844
01:05:48.904 --> 01:06:03.795
you know, wallet into the multisig quorum could really go a long way. And not even if it's just, you know, trusting the manufacturer, but if they have Don't trust us or don't trust any manufacturer. Yeah. Don't don't trust this guy. Come on, Gus. But, you know, if there's a bug,
845
01:06:04.714 --> 01:06:08.055
you know that you're only you won't be affected if you're in that multisig
846
01:06:08.355 --> 01:06:13.575
setup because the bug only affects the one device that, you know, they found the exploit for.
847
01:06:13.930 --> 01:06:14.089
So,
848
01:06:14.730 --> 01:06:18.030
yeah, as far as multisig goes, I think we made
849
01:06:18.490 --> 01:06:23.150
a lot of, great strides in the products that we're seeing. Spectre, 1st and foremost,
850
01:06:23.855 --> 01:06:24.355
Sparrow,
851
01:06:25.055 --> 01:06:28.735
and, Nunchuk to a lesser extent. I know that one's not open source yet.
852
01:06:29.055 --> 01:06:33.980
But we're going in the right direction, and, you know, that's a reassuring thing. And so
853
01:06:36.120 --> 01:06:37.500
I appreciate this discussion.
854
01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:46.285
One of the main goals I want with this show going forward and today being the first episode is that I wanted to be filled with actionable,
855
01:06:47.145 --> 01:06:50.845
advice, things that people, big corners around the world can actually use. So
856
01:06:51.170 --> 01:06:52.390
we have a bunch of people,
857
01:06:53.250 --> 01:06:54.549
a 1000000 email addresses,
858
01:06:55.410 --> 01:06:56.230
over 250,000
859
01:06:57.250 --> 01:07:00.390
emails, mailing address, and phone number have been compromised.
860
01:07:02.315 --> 01:07:07.855
We've gone over what Bitcoiners should do to try and avoid that happening to them in the future. But if it already happened to them,
861
01:07:08.830 --> 01:07:14.130
how should they proceed? What are some real steps they can take to try and protect themselves? We got Nick over here,
862
01:07:14.670 --> 01:07:16.370
who I've highlighted his comment.
863
01:07:17.315 --> 01:07:22.055
It appears he got an email verification email from Coinbase yesterday with his compromised
864
01:07:22.355 --> 01:07:29.240
email account. Nick, if you wanna comment real quick, I my my assumption is here is that you don't have a Coinbase account, and,
865
01:07:30.420 --> 01:07:36.964
the attacker is trying to make a Coinbase account in your name maybe, or they they try to sign in via your account?
866
01:07:38.464 --> 01:07:44.030
Never click on emails on links. Actually, any just always delete. So as soon as you see
867
01:07:44.410 --> 01:07:46.350
a freaking email from any
868
01:07:46.810 --> 01:07:50.984
any supplier, vendor, website, whatever it is, you always
869
01:07:51.845 --> 01:07:52.505
you you remember?
870
01:07:52.885 --> 01:08:01.820
So, say, Coinbase sent me an email. Great. You delete the email, so you don't click on it for sure, and then go log in on Coinbase and then see what's up. Absolutely.
871
01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:08.345
It's just you don't you don't click on emails like nothing, and seriously, use a text only email
872
01:08:09.045 --> 01:08:09.545
client.
873
01:08:10.005 --> 01:08:14.665
Well, I mean, listen. The the the clientele of this podcast is probably a little bit more sophisticated.
874
01:08:15.045 --> 01:08:16.425
Right? This is not
875
01:08:17.190 --> 01:08:19.450
this is all uncle Jim's watching us.
876
01:08:19.830 --> 01:08:20.810
So, seriously,
877
01:08:21.190 --> 01:08:26.985
stop using Gmail. Stop using any client on the browser, all this crap. Just go have mutt
878
01:08:28.565 --> 01:08:36.560
look up mutt email client, install that, only use that. It's all text based. You can see the headers. You can see everything that's going on.
879
01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:40.560
Right? Stop just trusting whatever you see on a computer.
880
01:08:43.325 --> 01:08:54.910
A 100%. You know, when you're getting into the space and you're dealing with, you know, self custody and a lot of money, you you know, there's a lot of responsibility that comes with it. And, end of the day, you just gotta be super vigilant.
881
01:08:56.250 --> 01:08:59.150
Now for people who got caught in this ledger thing,
882
01:08:59.695 --> 01:09:03.875
well, if your phone number is in there, you might wanna change that if you can.
883
01:09:04.175 --> 01:09:05.555
Your email, you might wanna
884
01:09:06.175 --> 01:09:08.355
get rid of that. If you can move,
885
01:09:09.690 --> 01:09:14.350
if not, you probably wanna arm yourself. Get a file, if you can, in your jurisdiction.
886
01:09:14.730 --> 01:09:24.275
Yeah. Make sure this is something that's okay in your country. Yeah. Yeah. You have the location that's against the law and, endorse that. If you live if you live in England, get a butter knife, a firearm
887
01:09:24.914 --> 01:09:27.450
A dust. Arm and defend yourself and your family.
888
01:09:27.990 --> 01:09:34.410
I I think I think another, like, a, like, a silver lining for the people that didn't get pound by this
889
01:09:34.785 --> 01:09:35.525
is that,
890
01:09:37.344 --> 01:09:38.645
you're gonna find out,
891
01:09:39.905 --> 01:09:44.324
through the news if there are bad guys in your city who are willing to do damage
892
01:09:46.610 --> 01:09:47.429
or not.
893
01:09:47.889 --> 01:09:50.230
So you can check the list to see how many,
894
01:09:50.610 --> 01:09:59.975
people got licked in your city and if it's like a decent enough amount of people. It's a it's an interesting thing to watch in the news. You you're gonna find out a lot about your jurisdiction
895
01:10:00.435 --> 01:10:03.090
by the amount of people that get kidnapped or killed.
896
01:10:06.210 --> 01:10:06.949
Too dark?
897
01:10:07.330 --> 01:10:12.715
Yeah. I mean, that was pretty dark. A little dark. Sorry. I mean, it's rough in Brazil, man. I
898
01:10:13.655 --> 01:10:29.680
Oh, I got you. If you do get go to the firearms route, make sure you do proper training and, you know, maybe take a course or 2. You know, don't just buy a gun and think you're fucking John Wick out there. Alright? You know, when when you buy a firearm, it's a serious thing. And, you know, that's just added responsibility.
899
01:10:33.135 --> 01:10:35.155
I mean, look. I think I think
900
01:10:37.455 --> 01:10:39.715
Bitcoiners think we invented these concerns.
901
01:10:41.250 --> 01:10:43.670
These concerns exist with every rich person.
902
01:10:44.450 --> 01:10:46.790
Like, every visibly rich person
903
01:10:47.250 --> 01:10:49.750
considers these these types of situations.
904
01:10:50.514 --> 01:10:52.614
Except yet you can rewind
905
01:10:52.994 --> 01:10:53.974
a bank level.
906
01:10:54.835 --> 01:11:01.980
I mean, I guess you can. Right? But I mean, I I like, you just mentioned Brazil. Right? Like, Brazil has been having these concerns,
907
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:11.795
with no Bitcoin involved. Oh, man. Right? There's private securities. There's walls. There's gates. There's off duty police officers that are acting as private security.
908
01:11:12.495 --> 01:11:15.590
They can do great reconstructive surgery for years there.
909
01:11:18.550 --> 01:11:20.969
That's what you send to ask for money.
910
01:11:24.125 --> 01:11:28.465
Yeah. So it's good to know a good one. Sorry. Another turn for the dark there.
911
01:11:30.364 --> 01:11:34.980
My I guess my point is is that I think as I think this
912
01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:36.420
is
913
01:11:37.360 --> 01:11:37.860
a,
914
01:11:38.160 --> 01:11:40.660
you know, the the this is a a a specific
915
01:11:41.715 --> 01:11:43.015
growing pains period
916
01:11:43.555 --> 01:11:46.535
where Bitcoiners will be targeted, because, ultimately,
917
01:11:47.315 --> 01:11:48.695
every single rich person
918
01:11:49.090 --> 01:11:58.710
will be a Bitcoiner in 5 years. Like, if, like, if you if if you don't own Bitcoin, you're not wealthy. Like, why don't you own Bitcoin? Like, that if it's the best money,
919
01:11:59.075 --> 01:12:00.935
if it's designed to pump forever,
920
01:12:01.875 --> 01:12:04.375
like, you're gonna have significant assets in Bitcoin,
921
01:12:04.835 --> 01:12:08.090
and you should have at least some of it in self custody,
922
01:12:08.470 --> 01:12:17.205
1, if you're not an idiot, and 2, just in case there's, like, a ransom situation and you need to get it quickly. I think the most important thing is we should all be in a position
923
01:12:18.385 --> 01:12:21.125
where we're simply not in a position to sign
924
01:12:21.505 --> 01:12:22.245
our wealth
925
01:12:22.785 --> 01:12:23.445
in person.
926
01:12:23.905 --> 01:12:25.150
It's as simple as that.
927
01:12:25.790 --> 01:12:32.290
Right? Like, my case, somebody comes to my house. I I literally am not able to sign my wealth, period.
928
01:12:33.355 --> 01:12:35.535
Right. It's a it's a multiday,
929
01:12:35.995 --> 01:12:36.495
multilocation,
930
01:12:37.435 --> 01:12:39.055
multi problem thing.
931
01:12:39.490 --> 01:12:40.230
Right. It's
932
01:12:40.530 --> 01:12:44.710
gonna take that that attackers are gonna have to wait a month or 2
933
01:12:45.010 --> 01:12:46.870
together having tea in the house.
934
01:12:48.224 --> 01:12:51.764
With me traveling to multiple place, it's very complicated.
935
01:12:52.385 --> 01:12:53.364
Right? Absolutely.
936
01:12:53.824 --> 01:12:56.724
So so in that sense, I mean, it's like,
937
01:12:57.260 --> 01:12:58.480
you know?
938
01:12:59.340 --> 01:13:01.920
And then and they also might have to deal with me.
939
01:13:03.099 --> 01:13:03.599
So
940
01:13:04.435 --> 01:13:06.775
you you just you you need to be in a position
941
01:13:07.155 --> 01:13:11.735
where you're just simply not able to help your visitors immediately
942
01:13:12.430 --> 01:13:13.170
by default,
943
01:13:16.430 --> 01:13:17.969
provably. And I would say
944
01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:21.969
the risk of k y c here are even greater. Right? The actual
945
01:13:22.494 --> 01:13:26.755
knowing the the exact balances that people have, knowing the exact amount someone has,
946
01:13:27.934 --> 01:13:32.114
it provides a much greater risk, and people should take that more seriously. Would you agree?
947
01:13:34.160 --> 01:13:35.460
Yeah. It's like
948
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:37.860
so not doxing your TXOs
949
01:13:38.240 --> 01:13:42.295
go a long way. Right? If people don't know how much you have is a big deal.
950
01:13:42.675 --> 01:13:46.935
Right? I mean, like, sure. You know, we show up in podcast, whatever. People can wonder,
951
01:13:47.430 --> 01:13:56.170
you know, if they only they knew that everybody that's in a podcast like this probably sold everything to invest in their own businesses at some point. But aside from those problems,
952
01:13:58.545 --> 01:14:06.150
it it's like if people don't know what you have, it's they're more they're less likely to look at you, then you're gonna probably go after somebody else
953
01:14:06.610 --> 01:14:08.790
that that is more obvious. Right? Like,
954
01:14:10.690 --> 01:14:14.675
it it's like flashing wealth is never a good thing to begin with.
955
01:14:16.255 --> 01:14:16.755
And,
956
01:14:19.790 --> 01:14:23.890
like, listen again. Right? Like and I and I can't understate this. It's like
957
01:14:24.510 --> 01:14:29.625
advanced attackers can find you and will find you. Right? So so don't don't
958
01:14:30.165 --> 01:14:35.705
don't believe that you're just because you have some name on Twitter, like, you were unfindable. Right? Like,
959
01:14:36.200 --> 01:14:38.140
there is some smart people out there.
960
01:14:38.920 --> 01:14:41.340
So so try not to dock your UTXOs
961
01:14:41.719 --> 01:14:45.020
in any service to begin with. That that's goes a long way.
962
01:14:45.825 --> 01:14:50.885
Then the second thing is just make sure you can't sign for it in a in a moment's notice. Right?
963
01:14:53.150 --> 01:14:56.210
I think that's, that's the best advice I can give.
964
01:15:00.190 --> 01:15:02.370
6102 is being censored right now.
965
01:15:03.105 --> 01:15:04.485
So after Freak Mobile.
966
01:15:07.905 --> 01:15:10.645
Yeah. I mean, I the it's a it's a very nuanced
967
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:17.139
it's a very nuanced discussion, and people are gonna need to you know, personal responsibility will always be the more difficult,
968
01:15:18.805 --> 01:15:22.265
will always be the more difficult path. I I think it it's just like
969
01:15:22.645 --> 01:15:29.900
this is a transitional period. Right? I mean, Bitcoin just happened. And to be fair, I mean, most bad guys probably out there are not even busy Bitcoiners yet,
970
01:15:32.519 --> 01:15:33.019
so
971
01:15:33.639 --> 01:15:37.185
and the baddest guide of all the state, But aside from that,
972
01:15:39.185 --> 01:15:39.685
like,
973
01:15:40.145 --> 01:15:42.965
we are gonna see a lot of market solutions
974
01:15:44.350 --> 01:15:48.850
as things evolve. Right? Like, it's just that we don't have, like,
975
01:15:49.390 --> 01:15:52.210
don't believe in the the bullshit out there. If there is
976
01:15:53.475 --> 01:15:55.655
5,000,000 to 10,000,000 people
977
01:15:56.035 --> 01:16:00.215
that own more than $50 worth of Bitcoin, it's probably, like, an overestimation.
978
01:16:03.130 --> 01:16:05.230
Like, that's aside from the shitcoins.
979
01:16:06.650 --> 01:16:07.630
I I think
980
01:16:08.250 --> 01:16:11.835
is is is a critical mass of consumers,
981
01:16:13.014 --> 01:16:14.155
coming to the market.
982
01:16:16.490 --> 01:16:19.630
You can have more r and d and more solutions,
983
01:16:20.570 --> 01:16:21.070
and
984
01:16:21.530 --> 01:16:24.945
and you can solve these problems. Right? Like, these are all
985
01:16:25.344 --> 01:16:32.405
tech problems, really, you know, way or another. Right? Like, you can come up with devices that will be able to cosign things.
986
01:16:33.425 --> 01:16:34.804
They'll be able to prove
987
01:16:36.210 --> 01:16:39.910
to an attacker in your house that you don't have the funds there, that
988
01:16:40.770 --> 01:16:41.270
that,
989
01:16:42.185 --> 01:16:50.764
that, you you know, you can have panic buttons that will sort of lock the funds in some in some time lock to an emergency address.
990
01:16:51.150 --> 01:16:54.370
So all kinds of shit that that will show up,
991
01:16:56.430 --> 01:16:56.930
including,
992
01:16:57.390 --> 01:16:58.930
you know, security services,
993
01:17:00.515 --> 01:17:02.135
you know, intelligence services
994
01:17:02.675 --> 01:17:03.575
for security.
995
01:17:03.955 --> 01:17:12.760
Like, some of the stuff already exists for very wealthy people. Right? Like, they they will have people monitoring their lives to make sure there's no threats. Right? Mhmm. So
996
01:17:13.140 --> 01:17:14.745
a lot of these things will come about,
997
01:17:15.625 --> 01:17:18.685
and and, you know, and they they will come into this space as
998
01:17:18.985 --> 01:17:23.165
well. These these are not simple problems. They're extremely locally
999
01:17:23.625 --> 01:17:32.845
based as well. Right? Like, if you live in in you know, where does Vitalik live now or, like, where you put a scammer like that? Switzerland somewhere. You
1000
01:17:33.465 --> 01:17:39.360
know, I'm sure there's no crime. There's nothing there. Right? So it's, like, different problems. Right?
1001
01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:46.900
You know, if you grew up in Sao Paulo, I mean, Sao Paulo is just Sao Paulo in an everyday problem base. Right? It's like nothing has changed.
1002
01:17:47.855 --> 01:17:52.995
So Bitcoin or credit card is still, like, you know, in an armored car. Right?
1003
01:17:54.095 --> 01:18:05.860
These things will evolve, and and we're gonna sort of figure out, like, how how to go about it. I I wouldn't be I wouldn't lose sleep over it, just just make sure that you cannot sign your funds
1004
01:18:06.295 --> 01:18:08.074
in a in a notice space.
1005
01:18:10.614 --> 01:18:11.914
Yeah. That's great advice.
1006
01:18:12.614 --> 01:18:15.195
You know, multi sig is going a long way, and
1007
01:18:15.540 --> 01:18:18.920
you should definitely think about putting a setup like that if possible,
1008
01:18:19.700 --> 01:18:23.080
multi jurisdictional, you know, corrupt different countries if you can.
1009
01:18:23.514 --> 01:18:24.014
Yep.
1010
01:18:24.795 --> 01:18:29.775
But, yeah, it's it's reassuring that more and more solutions are coming onto the market every day,
1011
01:18:30.635 --> 01:18:34.139
and, you know, things are becoming easier and more accessible.
1012
01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:39.329
But, you know, as you get more wealth in Bitcoin, these are things you're gonna have to,
1013
01:18:40.425 --> 01:18:42.765
think about. And, it's part of the game
1014
01:18:43.065 --> 01:18:44.605
of the personal responsibility
1015
01:18:44.985 --> 01:18:52.900
that this whole thing is all about. I think a lot of people, you know, in the very near future are gonna have a ton of their Bitcoin just parked
1016
01:18:53.360 --> 01:18:54.659
on a on a loan
1017
01:18:55.295 --> 01:19:10.580
against the Bitcoin to buy things. Right? Like, they're gonna buy houses. They're gonna buy they they need to live their lives. Right? Yeah. They're gonna have college. Like a block 5. Right? Like they're gonna have their stuff parked in places that they can't even move even with the gun to the head. Right? They wish they could move.
1018
01:19:11.945 --> 01:19:16.205
So I I the these things will start themselves out. It's just so early.
1019
01:19:17.304 --> 01:19:22.199
Well, I mean, I wanna push back a little bit on the idea. I I I think the idea that multisig
1020
01:19:22.500 --> 01:19:24.520
helps is is big. And,
1021
01:19:25.300 --> 01:19:27.355
our boy 61 or 2, who is
1022
01:19:27.835 --> 01:19:30.575
being actively censored right now by this,
1023
01:19:32.235 --> 01:19:32.975
chat feed,
1024
01:19:34.235 --> 01:19:34.555
would
1025
01:19:35.100 --> 01:19:37.280
his big thing is multi jurisdictional
1026
01:19:37.900 --> 01:19:40.699
multisig, which is pretty good. It really does.
1027
01:19:41.020 --> 01:19:41.520
Because
1028
01:19:41.980 --> 01:19:47.735
this idea that you have to your keys are in different jurisdictions. So not only does, like, your average,
1029
01:19:48.594 --> 01:19:58.469
you know, burglar have issues with trying to compromise your key setup, Your actual government is gonna have major issues. They're gonna have to put you into fucking jail and then
1030
01:19:58.850 --> 01:20:10.505
deal with you trying to access these keys from all different jurisdictions. Like, where is the best one located? What if the other keys are only accessible by you in person? So you actually have to literally hop an airplane.
1031
01:20:10.840 --> 01:20:15.980
To, like, in a non extradition country or something. Right? Like, what? Is the bad guy gonna go with you on the flight?
1032
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:18.140
Right?
1033
01:20:18.605 --> 01:20:29.460
Like, things does get tricky. Right? Like so this is what I'm trying to explain. It's like you put yourself in a position that, like, it's gonna take a literal month or 2 for you to sign out
1034
01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:30.739
your $10,000.
1035
01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:32.739
Yeah.
1036
01:20:34.560 --> 01:20:36.340
That the seeds being distributed,
1037
01:20:36.735 --> 01:20:40.034
I mean and then on top of that, you could throw BIP 38
1038
01:20:40.415 --> 01:20:50.260
passphrases on top of them too. So even if the attacker was able to get all your keys, they still need to get the password out of you. There's so many different things you can Or or even a passphrase. Right?
1039
01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:51.220
Passphrase.
1040
01:20:52.320 --> 01:20:55.540
You know, maybe your passphrase is in a different country.
1041
01:20:56.735 --> 01:21:01.875
And and if you're doing your passphrase right, you cannot remember it. Yeah. Passphrase is like poor man's multisig.
1042
01:21:02.495 --> 01:21:03.720
No. It's it's
1043
01:21:04.200 --> 01:21:06.540
so What? What a beautiful thing about passphrase is,
1044
01:21:07.160 --> 01:21:15.135
it depends. Like, listen. Different people, different problems. Right? Mhmm. But one nice thing about the past phrase is that the past phrase does not have Bitcoin complication.
1045
01:21:15.995 --> 01:21:21.310
Right? It's just like a a salt essentially on top of it. Right? It's just like a little sprinkle
1046
01:21:22.010 --> 01:21:24.750
of entropy on top of your of your seed.
1047
01:21:26.490 --> 01:21:26.990
And
1048
01:21:27.850 --> 01:21:28.350
and,
1049
01:21:28.744 --> 01:21:38.204
like, that helps a lot because you can still have a simple wallet. Right? You don't have to complicate anything with because see, one people one thing that people need to make sure is if you're using multisig,
1050
01:21:38.730 --> 01:21:41.710
you have a copy of the redeem script
1051
01:21:42.570 --> 01:21:50.945
because you don't know if this wallet provider will be around tomorrow. It's the reason why we started, like, the what was what's the website again? Wallets recovery.org.
1052
01:21:51.485 --> 01:21:54.410
Yeah. Great. Great site. Which, by the way, wallets recovery.com
1053
01:21:55.030 --> 01:22:07.855
redirects to coinkite. So just you should redirect it to Does it? Dot org, you asshole. Oh, it's old. No. I have that I have that link. This is me telling you to redirect it to the proper site. Oh, you know what? Just because you said that I won't.
1054
01:22:10.790 --> 01:22:11.290
No.
1055
01:22:13.110 --> 01:22:16.355
I have no ads on that website. Goddamn it. Walletsrecovery.org.
1056
01:22:17.215 --> 01:22:17.875
Here you go.
1057
01:22:18.335 --> 01:22:20.355
So, anyway, so the the point is,
1058
01:22:21.935 --> 01:22:28.020
and and their website only shows the derivation path. Right? I mean, it doesn't even have the redeem script to some of these wallets.
1059
01:22:28.640 --> 01:22:29.140
So,
1060
01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:33.700
if you are gonna use multisig for real money,
1061
01:22:34.045 --> 01:22:37.505
please have a key a a copy of your redeem script.
1062
01:22:38.365 --> 01:22:41.345
You need to be able to recover without the original wallet.
1063
01:22:41.780 --> 01:22:47.800
And with multisig, that is that can be a monumental problem. It could be irredeemable
1064
01:22:48.340 --> 01:22:48.840
problem.
1065
01:22:49.460 --> 01:22:50.840
Seriously, it could.
1066
01:22:52.395 --> 01:22:52.895
So,
1067
01:22:53.435 --> 01:22:58.495
so, so, yeah, so so that's one nice thing about the the pass phrase, especially for nontechnical people.
1068
01:22:58.830 --> 01:23:03.890
Pass phrase, you know, you have your seed in one place, you have your pass phrase in another, and,
1069
01:23:04.590 --> 01:23:12.305
you know, it's you know, if the entropy is right on this on the on the pass phrase, a 128 a 128 bits at minimum,
1070
01:23:13.165 --> 01:23:16.140
in all, you're good. How many is that? Six words
1071
01:23:18.120 --> 01:23:20.060
or 12 words? I can't remember now.
1072
01:23:21.480 --> 01:23:23.980
Oh, I've I was zoned out. So
1073
01:23:24.885 --> 01:23:36.969
that's a lot. Yeah. You should always have, like, I'd say, 6 words. Yeah. Minimum 6 words. Yeah. Anyways, go for 12. Why not? It's it's like it's it's it's a it's a half a plate. Are we talking about passphrase?
1074
01:23:37.270 --> 01:23:43.315
Yeah. Well, your micro SD cards default to 12. Yeah. So so that's that's it. Was that the question?
1075
01:23:43.695 --> 01:23:45.635
Anyways, go with that. Go with 12 words.
1076
01:23:48.015 --> 01:23:50.035
It's like it's half of a seed plate,
1077
01:23:50.500 --> 01:23:51.960
and it's a full of
1078
01:23:52.420 --> 01:23:53.640
some of the other plates.
1079
01:23:55.220 --> 01:23:55.720
And,
1080
01:23:56.340 --> 01:23:57.000
you know,
1081
01:23:57.300 --> 01:24:05.645
and then, like, I mean, good luck to an attacker. Right? Like, I mean, you're you're way past the point where somebody who who could own you entropy wise.
1082
01:24:07.469 --> 01:24:15.810
And it's nice. It's like it's like a lot of this stuff is like it may sound difficult, but it's peace of mind. Right? Like, you know, you can sleep at ease.
1083
01:24:19.215 --> 01:24:32.730
Why not make banks actually useful and take advantage of their vaults to store your hardware wallet? So okay. So here's the truth about bank vaults in most countries, aside from, like, Monaco and Switzerland,
1084
01:24:34.790 --> 01:24:35.530
is that
1085
01:24:35.975 --> 01:24:36.795
bank vaults,
1086
01:24:37.415 --> 01:24:39.355
like safe deposit boxes,
1087
01:24:40.215 --> 01:24:40.715
anybody
1088
01:24:41.175 --> 01:24:42.315
with a fake ID
1089
01:24:43.230 --> 01:24:50.355
or maybe a fake ID plus a bank card can get into your safe deposit box. Okay? It's really does not seem that hard.
1090
01:24:51.395 --> 01:25:00.920
And if they don't have the key, which they won't, they're just gonna, like, show the ID and whatever, and they're gonna drill it and charge them $200 for the fee of of drilling the lock.
1091
01:25:02.020 --> 01:25:09.415
And then there is the fact that, like, government can go after your safe deposit box, especially if it's tax authority. Right? They don't actually
1092
01:25:09.795 --> 01:25:10.295
tax
1093
01:25:10.755 --> 01:25:13.255
the tax people in most countries have extrajudicial
1094
01:25:13.715 --> 01:25:14.215
powers,
1095
01:25:14.515 --> 01:25:16.375
so they could go after your bank vaults.
1096
01:25:17.170 --> 01:25:20.309
So bank vaults are great if they don't have the full secret.
1097
01:25:20.610 --> 01:25:22.949
They are a fantastic place to keep,
1098
01:25:24.690 --> 01:25:25.989
encrypted bank card.
1099
01:25:29.925 --> 01:25:51.639
Somebody said bank vaults make no sense to me. No. They I mean or they they they do. Encrypt is not the card makes sense or multisig. They could be used in multisig. Yeah. But you should just assume that the bank vault has been compromised. If you use a bank vault, if you use a a safe deposit box, you should assume that safe deposit box is is fucking compromised, that people are accessing it all the time. That that should be the assumption you operate under.
1100
01:25:52.100 --> 01:25:52.600
Yep.
1101
01:25:55.540 --> 01:25:56.440
Next question.
1102
01:25:58.284 --> 01:25:59.344
Do you own coldcroc.com
1103
01:26:00.125 --> 01:26:06.395
or is that a freak trolling you? Oh my god. Whoever freak whichever
1104
01:26:07.250 --> 01:26:08.469
freak owns the domain,
1105
01:26:08.929 --> 01:26:10.790
I will trade you for a cold card.
1106
01:26:12.770 --> 01:26:17.445
Guys, charge more than that, And Ping me on Twitter, and I'll trade you that domain.
1107
01:26:19.425 --> 01:26:24.290
So, Freaks, I mean, we're way behind schedule here. I appreciate you all joining us
1108
01:26:24.850 --> 01:26:26.070
for the first episode
1109
01:26:26.690 --> 01:26:27.990
of Citadel Dispatch.
1110
01:26:28.770 --> 01:26:34.765
Pretty hyped about releasing this. I I literally had 2 weeks left to be able to claim that,
1111
01:26:35.705 --> 01:26:38.605
this show launched in 2020, so here we go.
1112
01:26:39.225 --> 01:26:39.725
But
1113
01:26:41.320 --> 01:26:44.460
we've entered the q and a period. So if you wanna hit us with
1114
01:26:44.840 --> 01:26:45.980
your hard questions,
1115
01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:57.344
I mean, now's now's the time to hit us with these questions. Hang on. I pushed my wife. I'm gonna go get some bourbon. One second. Oh, Robert Hamilton owns that. He bought Cold Crock. Nice. So
1116
01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:06.500
Robert Robert Cronk run. Robert, you hold on to you huddle that domain. Like, you're gonna make Rodolfo pay millions of sats for that domain at some point.
1117
01:27:07.425 --> 01:27:09.605
Fuck it. When Bitcoin is, $1,000,000
1118
01:27:09.905 --> 01:27:12.005
per coin, you'll buy Crocs. Look.
1119
01:27:12.385 --> 01:27:19.270
Robert is very low time preference. He he wants he wants you to send me a cold card, and then he'll give it to you. Alright. Deal.
1120
01:27:19.889 --> 01:27:21.270
You got a deal, sir.
1121
01:27:22.530 --> 01:27:27.755
Okay. Unchained Capital. We have a question about Unchained Capital. They are a sponsor of the podcast.
1122
01:27:29.175 --> 01:27:30.335
But are they sponsor
1123
01:27:31.015 --> 01:27:31.675
on that.
1124
01:27:32.455 --> 01:27:38.659
They're also my boys. I like them a lot. Yeah. They do. So, I mean, it it's they offer a great service.
1125
01:27:39.300 --> 01:27:42.545
You know, they hold your hand, and you have to trust them with your
1126
01:27:46.225 --> 01:27:47.844
That's a similar trade off to Casa.
1127
01:27:48.545 --> 01:27:52.910
I I really like Unchained also offers you the ability to take out a loan,
1128
01:27:54.090 --> 01:27:57.310
collateralized by your Bitcoin, which I don't really love
1129
01:27:57.610 --> 01:28:04.975
at least right now for me. I guess if the price goes up, I might like it more. It's it's it's basically a tax preferred way of
1130
01:28:05.355 --> 01:28:11.449
taking money out of your Bitcoin because, in the US at least, you don't pay capital gains tax if you do it that way.
1131
01:28:11.750 --> 01:28:14.570
But if you do that, you have to make sure that you,
1132
01:28:16.205 --> 01:28:28.350
you're over collateralized because you could have a March 12th incident where the price just goes down, you know, 50, 60 percent on you. And if you're not ready for that, you're gonna lose your Bitcoin. So most of those loans,
1133
01:28:29.610 --> 01:28:34.184
so the way it works is they'll take you they they will remind you at 70%,
1134
01:28:35.364 --> 01:28:35.864
75%,
1135
01:28:37.045 --> 01:28:38.264
and then at 80%
1136
01:28:38.645 --> 01:28:41.065
of your principal, that's when they will
1137
01:28:41.820 --> 01:28:42.880
margin call you.
1138
01:28:43.340 --> 01:28:58.870
They'll liquidate you. But the problem with March March 12th is all those notifications happened in, like, 5 minutes. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, that's that's ultimately, that's the problem that I have with a lot of these loan companies is that they need to to, to create what I call balls
1139
01:28:59.330 --> 01:29:20.780
and then, and then sort of figure out how to create a buffer to deal with that problem. Right? Because it shouldn't be a customer problem. Like, nobody can send you a transaction in 5 minutes because But it I mean it may be in the shitter. The thing is the thing is is, like, when you deal with mortgages with houses, like, the housing market doesn't fall apart in a period of 45 minutes. But the thing is So
1140
01:29:21.255 --> 01:29:25.755
people are learning on the fly here. Yeah. I it's important
1141
01:29:27.015 --> 01:29:29.675
to delineate between the two products. They have their handheld
1142
01:29:30.130 --> 01:29:33.670
multisig service, where they are a cosigner. They have one key for you.
1143
01:29:34.530 --> 01:29:44.114
You are trusting them with your privacy. And then they have the second service, which is this loan product, which the loan product is absolutely best in class. It's the only product
1144
01:29:44.655 --> 01:29:48.355
that lets you actually know your coins aren't being re lent out.
1145
01:29:48.790 --> 01:29:50.330
You can see them on chain,
1146
01:29:50.790 --> 01:29:59.835
and you're not only trusting Unchained with it. They have a third party that held holds the 3rd key. So Unchained has a key, 3rd party has a key, and you have a key.
1147
01:30:00.535 --> 01:30:06.795
So so in a situation where they have to take your collateral from you, they're gonna go to that 3rd party legally,
1148
01:30:07.190 --> 01:30:12.570
and they're gonna petition them to get access to your coins, which is not the case with their competitors.
1149
01:30:13.590 --> 01:30:20.645
So if you are gonna go for a loan product, there there's no better option. And if you're gonna go for a hosted multisig because you want your handheld,
1150
01:30:21.185 --> 01:30:26.850
I I think they're a very good option. But you are trusting them with your privacy, and it's important to realize that trade off.
1151
01:30:31.010 --> 01:30:35.575
Rodolfo, what do you think about Shamir's secrets? Why why don't we have that on cold card yet?
1152
01:30:36.055 --> 01:30:38.075
We already have encrypted backup.
1153
01:30:40.695 --> 01:30:44.235
It solves the same concept or the same same same situation.
1154
01:30:45.080 --> 01:30:47.340
It's the same minus the complication.
1155
01:30:47.720 --> 01:30:48.940
Like so
1156
01:30:49.640 --> 01:30:54.540
see, with Shamir, like, Shamir is great, and and we, you know, we wanna add it. Not not
1157
01:30:54.905 --> 01:30:57.965
not the slip Shamir because that's extra
1158
01:30:58.745 --> 01:30:59.245
complicated
1159
01:30:59.705 --> 01:31:04.620
for no reason. So if I if we were to implement Shamir, we would
1160
01:31:05.080 --> 01:31:07.500
have 3 shares, so 3 SD cards
1161
01:31:07.960 --> 01:31:09.260
that would be interchangeable
1162
01:31:09.719 --> 01:31:10.219
ideally
1163
01:31:10.600 --> 01:31:11.420
in implementation
1164
01:31:11.800 --> 01:31:16.364
where the order doesn't matter. So if you have 2, you're good. Right?
1165
01:31:18.425 --> 01:31:21.804
But but, but Shamir, for the sake of Shamir,
1166
01:31:22.264 --> 01:31:23.244
just to be,
1167
01:31:24.570 --> 01:31:25.870
you know, just just
1168
01:31:26.810 --> 01:31:30.570
just to have the bullet point, we're not gonna do it. We already have, like
1169
01:31:31.155 --> 01:31:36.055
the the micro SD encryption that we have is solid. Right? Like, it's shot to 56,
1170
01:31:36.835 --> 01:31:37.335
AES
1171
01:31:38.035 --> 01:31:38.535
CTR.
1172
01:31:40.480 --> 01:31:42.100
I like that it looks like a seed.
1173
01:31:43.200 --> 01:31:50.385
It's yeah. I mean, it's not a great thing. We are using your we are using BIP 39 c we are using BIP 39 words
1174
01:31:50.845 --> 01:31:56.065
so that there is no confusion. There's no way for you to fuck it up. It's only 12 words.
1175
01:31:57.310 --> 01:31:58.850
And you know what's funny?
1176
01:31:59.230 --> 01:32:01.890
This is this is a cool one. Somebody suggested.
1177
01:32:03.150 --> 01:32:05.890
So you can set up another cold card
1178
01:32:06.655 --> 01:32:08.594
with those 12 words as the seed,
1179
01:32:09.695 --> 01:32:10.835
as your honeypot.
1180
01:32:11.215 --> 01:32:11.715
So
1181
01:32:12.015 --> 01:32:12.594
you have
1182
01:32:12.895 --> 01:32:13.715
those seeds
1183
01:32:14.200 --> 01:32:20.540
though, those seeds which are the encryption keys for the auto one. Is it a valid seed? Yeah. I mean With the checksum and everything?
1184
01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.900
I think it is. I can't I I I yeah.
1185
01:32:24.505 --> 01:32:33.245
I can't remember now a 100% if you have to ignore validation or not. I kinda like if it I I I hope it's a real seed. If it's not, it should be in the next firmware update.
1186
01:32:34.400 --> 01:32:40.260
I like that idea. I like that concept. I love that, like, in the next firmware update as if we don't have a massive list.
1187
01:32:40.615 --> 01:32:50.155
Jesus Christ, did you see the side in the next firmware? Note it. Note it, Rodolfo. I'll let I'll I'll remind you every single rabbit hole recap if we don't fucking do it. A barrier on you. Noted.
1188
01:32:52.360 --> 01:32:53.260
Fucking noted.
1189
01:32:55.160 --> 01:32:57.739
We have 6102 has 2 comments.
1190
01:32:58.535 --> 01:33:00.375
He he wants to say that,
1191
01:33:01.415 --> 01:33:03.355
he thinks even though his multisig
1192
01:33:03.655 --> 01:33:04.155
jurisdictional
1193
01:33:04.535 --> 01:33:06.075
idea is fucking genius,
1194
01:33:07.210 --> 01:33:09.230
he thinks that you should also have
1195
01:33:09.770 --> 01:33:16.110
some Bitcoin on hand that you can hand an attacker just so that they're happy and they fucking leave, and they just don't bother you anymore.
1196
01:33:16.715 --> 01:33:22.175
Yes. They they have gross money. Good advice. And then he also has a hard hitting question for you, Rodolfo.
1197
01:33:24.080 --> 01:33:24.580
No.
1198
01:33:26.240 --> 01:33:28.100
When when QR codes?
1199
01:33:28.640 --> 01:33:32.895
So we already support QR codes for the Explorer. Right? If you
1200
01:33:33.535 --> 01:33:38.355
type if you type I can't remember now if it's 4 or 6 on the block explorer. 4.
1201
01:33:39.055 --> 01:33:39.555
4.
1202
01:33:40.150 --> 01:33:50.125
I don't use that feature. See, I use the feature in the cloud. Use that feature. You should verify your addresses. Dude, we have too much Why aren't you doing it? Joe fucking needs to verify. They it's this paranoia
1203
01:33:50.664 --> 01:34:05.230
stuff. Wow. Wow. You guys you guys click that out and post that to Twitter. Totally go way too far this shit. Listen, we build the features. Right? Like, you guys go way too far this shit. I just make sure I, you know, I don't go to, like, you know,
1204
01:34:05.530 --> 01:34:12.295
when when when some porn. Exe shows up on my email, I don't click on it. Right? Like, it's that simple.
1205
01:34:13.795 --> 01:34:14.295
Anyways,
1206
01:34:15.660 --> 01:34:21.280
so okay, so the maximum amount of data we can support to the current hardware on the screen,
1207
01:34:22.355 --> 01:34:23.575
okay, is an address.
1208
01:34:27.155 --> 01:34:28.775
But, but look, okay, so
1209
01:34:29.235 --> 01:34:30.610
fuck, a few things. So
1210
01:34:31.170 --> 01:34:35.590
q QR codes are fun and great. We love them. We loved them before Bitcoin,
1211
01:34:36.050 --> 01:34:37.190
okay, as a company.
1212
01:34:38.455 --> 01:34:41.835
We were doing QR codes at fucking payment terminals before
1213
01:34:42.215 --> 01:34:43.915
color screens were around Bitcoin.
1214
01:34:45.255 --> 01:34:45.755
Okay.
1215
01:34:46.120 --> 01:34:57.475
We got it. Exactly. Right? So so so the problem is two things. There's cost. K? So as the screen size increases and you don't give up security,
1216
01:34:59.535 --> 01:35:03.860
the the cost of the overall hardware is gonna increase, so that's one
1217
01:35:04.200 --> 01:35:04.700
thing.
1218
01:35:05.600 --> 01:35:11.140
So that's just for the display side. Right? And then there's the camera side. Great. More money.
1219
01:35:12.224 --> 01:35:12.844
But then
1220
01:35:13.945 --> 01:35:15.324
PSBTs are large.
1221
01:35:15.704 --> 01:35:16.204
PSBTs
1222
01:35:16.505 --> 01:35:20.045
for multi sig of complex transactions can get very large.
1223
01:35:21.070 --> 01:35:27.090
So, you know, I know that kids like to play with the animated QRs, but they have limits too,
1224
01:35:28.510 --> 01:35:30.965
and and they're not human legible.
1225
01:35:31.505 --> 01:35:34.645
I have a major problem with shit that's not human legible.
1226
01:35:35.185 --> 01:35:41.750
So do you know how you like to check your address on your cold card with the QR that you just said? That I don't even do it.
1227
01:35:43.409 --> 01:35:51.665
I I check my see, this to me is the beautiful thing of Bitcoin. It's like you read the shit on the screen and then you don't get robbed.
1228
01:35:52.045 --> 01:36:03.690
Right? But this is air gap mode, the only way to do that is if you go to address explorer. Right. That's the problem. So now if you're using the microSD, you shuffle your stuff, you check on the computer, you check on the signing
1229
01:36:04.150 --> 01:36:06.329
part, right, you should be good.
1230
01:36:07.945 --> 01:36:13.565
Now with QR's, QR's are great, are fun, are very easy, especially good for setting up wallets
1231
01:36:14.250 --> 01:36:16.110
more than they are for transactions
1232
01:36:16.810 --> 01:36:17.310
because
1233
01:36:17.930 --> 01:36:20.990
nobody should have their fucking hardware wallets in their pockets.
1234
01:36:21.625 --> 01:36:26.364
If you have your hardware wallet in your pockets, you should seriously seek some psychological help.
1235
01:36:26.824 --> 01:36:36.890
Okay? Like, don't. Just like if you have pocket money, pocket put on your phone, put it in a in a single sig hot wallet. Who cares? It's it's like it's
1236
01:36:37.215 --> 01:36:38.595
hot money. Right?
1237
01:36:40.575 --> 01:36:49.920
Hardware wallets are not a device for you to keep around. Right? They're they're not supposed to feel friendly like you should have them in your pocket or in your butt. Like, don't do it.
1238
01:36:51.760 --> 01:37:04.750
And and and I should Bitcoin fixes putting anything in your butt, freaks. Like, those things are true. In their butt. Let's just get that settled. It's a surprising amount of compressed data. They're trying progress realization, not regret it back.
1239
01:37:06.570 --> 01:37:16.975
Seriously, it's like I I pushed back on Bitcoin fixes this meme, but Bitcoin fixes, you know, putting financial instruments in your asshole. You know, you don't have to do anything. Old card, not not about OpenDime.
1240
01:37:18.635 --> 01:37:21.690
So Well, the option exists at least. It it does.
1241
01:37:22.310 --> 01:37:23.770
No. But seriously, it's like,
1242
01:37:24.550 --> 01:37:36.195
I I I and I and I think we should seriously, like, push back on on devices and people out there who talk about, oh, this device is great. It feels great in the hand, and you wanna take this with you.
1243
01:37:36.560 --> 01:37:39.619
No. This device should be closed in some corner
1244
01:37:39.920 --> 01:37:42.739
somewhere not available to you. Right? Like
1245
01:37:43.040 --> 01:38:00.210
like any Rodolfo, you've gone into, like, a long tangent. Yes. The the answer is he's gonna release one that can scan QR codes and do Ts through QR codes eventually. Yeah. Same problem. Yeah. Of course, we're gonna make we we have a device Thank you, Rodol. Okay. We have a side project
1246
01:38:01.105 --> 01:38:03.045
that's becoming a full time project
1247
01:38:03.745 --> 01:38:08.565
to make exactly. Right? That is to make, like, a proper hardware wallet
1248
01:38:08.940 --> 01:38:12.560
with QR code and camera, not, like, what's available right now.
1249
01:38:13.500 --> 01:38:21.275
There we go, Freaks. You heard it here first. This is why you tune in this is why you tune in to Citadel dispatch. You get Oh, good. Information.
1250
01:38:21.655 --> 01:38:24.475
But here's the point, though. It's not necessarily
1251
01:38:26.650 --> 01:38:29.070
you might be gaining a few points in in
1252
01:38:29.450 --> 01:38:31.870
in in UX. Right? But, like,
1253
01:38:32.410 --> 01:38:33.790
we still gonna sell
1254
01:38:34.295 --> 01:38:41.275
mark 3 or mark 4 to the reasonable people that don't want QR codes and cameras on their hardware wallets. Mhmm.
1255
01:38:41.975 --> 01:38:46.060
But I I think there is enough demand for people that wanna pay a lot more
1256
01:38:46.520 --> 01:38:49.340
and get a device that has a camera and a bigger screen.
1257
01:38:50.040 --> 01:38:53.100
I think that would be great for operational wallets
1258
01:38:53.995 --> 01:38:58.415
so that you you know, like, your your admin funds or your everyday
1259
01:38:59.035 --> 01:39:02.335
sort of need to spend from your desk kinda deal,
1260
01:39:03.420 --> 01:39:07.520
as opposed to your listen. Your holdout should not be available by a picture.
1261
01:39:08.780 --> 01:39:09.280
Yeah.
1262
01:39:09.900 --> 01:39:12.000
You don't wanna make that shit easy.
1263
01:39:12.325 --> 01:39:16.825
Like, it's insanity to me when people talk about making Bitcoin easy. No.
1264
01:39:17.445 --> 01:39:19.864
If it's your real money, don't make it easy.
1265
01:39:20.840 --> 01:39:22.219
Hard. Very hard.
1266
01:39:23.239 --> 01:39:24.940
Under a mine hard.
1267
01:39:30.344 --> 01:39:31.965
Do I need to add more adjectives?
1268
01:39:32.905 --> 01:39:36.730
No. That I I'm glad I got you to nail down the point.
1269
01:39:37.210 --> 01:39:42.590
There's a question for me from Roman. Do I still recommend Resabe, or is it currently too flawed to use?
1270
01:39:43.610 --> 01:39:45.790
I I don't recommend the coin join.
1271
01:39:46.835 --> 01:39:50.055
I I think you should either use Whirlpool or join the market,
1272
01:39:52.195 --> 01:40:00.550
but I do think it is is is useful to access your cold card. It's it's a very nice, easy way to access your cold card without your own node.
1273
01:40:01.170 --> 01:40:03.670
I do think it's preferable for you to use,
1274
01:40:04.475 --> 01:40:04.975
Specter
1275
01:40:05.435 --> 01:40:21.735
and Bitcoin Core with your cold card. I think that's the better way to do it, but then you have to use your, you you know, the Bitcoin Core is your your own node. So it it does require more bandwidth, and it does require more storage space. But, you can use it pruned, so it's like 10 gigs of storage.
1276
01:40:22.594 --> 01:40:27.335
So I don't really think it's that much of a negative. And you can find that guide at we run bitcoin.com.
1277
01:40:27.850 --> 01:40:31.550
And what's cool is if you followed my previous guide with Wasabi and Coldcard,
1278
01:40:32.090 --> 01:40:38.945
it's the same derivation paths and everything. You just follow the fucking wizard inspector, and your wallet will show up. You don't have to, like, transfer anything.
1279
01:40:39.245 --> 01:40:45.505
Mike has well, Mac. Mac has great guides, by the way. Go to all his 50,000 domains. He has a domain.
1280
01:40:46.270 --> 01:40:52.290
Yeah. The only person who rivals me in domains is you, mister Cole. Oh, I don't have I might have 1 or 2. That's it.
1281
01:40:53.550 --> 01:40:54.050
So
1282
01:40:54.405 --> 01:41:01.625
I I you know, it's kinda funny, like so the weatherman is always wrong. Right? Like, about the weather. Right?
1283
01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:11.185
So, you know, we know that. Right? I mean, you check what what's is it gonna be cold or hot today? They're always wrong. Right? So the weatherman is always wrong,
1284
01:41:12.365 --> 01:41:15.265
and the and the the weatherman works for big media.
1285
01:41:16.845 --> 01:41:17.345
So
1286
01:41:18.820 --> 01:41:23.480
I I I think there is one interesting point though is there is no harm
1287
01:41:23.940 --> 01:41:26.920
in in people having a separate computer.
1288
01:41:27.235 --> 01:41:31.655
Right? Like, you know, get yourself a cheaper laptop or your older model
1289
01:41:32.114 --> 01:41:33.315
that has a full running
1290
01:41:34.514 --> 01:41:36.390
sorry, a full node running on it.
1291
01:41:37.430 --> 01:41:43.530
It has, you know, your preferred wallet, maybe has a few other wallets that you like playing with. You know, it has proper,
1292
01:41:43.910 --> 01:41:53.065
disk encryption running on it. You know? And then it's like a laptop that you can experiment on, you you know, in terms of, like, trying to secure it further and stuff.
1293
01:41:55.139 --> 01:41:58.119
It's not you're not gonna have private keys in this computer,
1294
01:41:58.579 --> 01:42:01.880
but this is gonna be, like, a reasonably clean
1295
01:42:02.340 --> 01:42:02.840
computer
1296
01:42:03.385 --> 01:42:04.765
where you don't add your
1297
01:42:05.225 --> 01:42:06.685
Gmail shit in it,
1298
01:42:08.025 --> 01:42:10.445
and and that's where you you you do your
1299
01:42:10.750 --> 01:42:13.010
your accounting. Right? Your your Bitcoin.
1300
01:42:15.150 --> 01:42:25.695
It's it's a great way of just making sure that, you know, when you click on porn. Exe on your email, it doesn't open your Electrum and sends everything out, right?
1301
01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:29.450
It's such a, like, a a simple
1302
01:42:30.150 --> 01:42:32.250
thing to do. Just segregate
1303
01:42:32.710 --> 01:42:33.930
your your needs.
1304
01:42:35.685 --> 01:42:39.865
Yeah. I mean and if you own $500 in Bitcoin, like, whatever. Fucking YOLO.
1305
01:42:40.245 --> 01:42:41.945
You know? But as you own more,
1306
01:42:42.400 --> 01:42:46.340
like, you should spend the extra $400 to have a
1307
01:42:46.640 --> 01:42:48.580
dedicated fucking computer for it.
1308
01:42:49.120 --> 01:42:50.020
Yeah. It's,
1309
01:42:50.695 --> 01:42:55.275
no. I mean, listen. People should have a dedicated computer regardless. Right? Like, for your online banking.
1310
01:42:55.655 --> 01:43:12.945
Yeah. But, I mean, if you're if you're a pleb if you're a a proper pleb and you, you know, you have fucking nothing, like, I understand that. The same as podcast. You should be going to find the means of income. This is the first step, Rodolfo. This is the first step. Go find income. Stop listening to podcast.
1311
01:43:13.870 --> 01:43:19.570
Find income, people. Oh, but what if they're in the middle of the night while they're working their job, you know?
1312
01:43:19.870 --> 01:43:20.930
Oh, that's true.
1313
01:43:21.605 --> 01:43:24.425
See? They're bettering themselves in 2 ways at once.
1314
01:43:24.804 --> 01:43:27.545
Rodolfo, what's the lifespan of an MK 3?
1315
01:43:29.290 --> 01:43:29.790
Wait.
1316
01:43:30.570 --> 01:43:32.030
Well, I mean, like, forever
1317
01:43:32.330 --> 01:43:33.630
ish, not.
1318
01:43:34.650 --> 01:43:40.415
Did you say that's a puppy sale? I'm tired. Oh, no. So so, like, this is the problem. Right? Like and
1319
01:43:41.675 --> 01:43:49.780
so this is a new technology. Right? Like, Bitcoin is a completely new thing. Never existed. It's it's like, sure, the, the crypto on it is old,
1320
01:43:50.239 --> 01:43:50.739
but
1321
01:43:51.440 --> 01:43:56.425
this problems have never existed before. Right? We have never had to hold
1322
01:43:56.805 --> 01:43:58.345
the money in the computer.
1323
01:43:59.125 --> 01:44:00.665
Right? Like that, just
1324
01:44:01.125 --> 01:44:02.025
mind exploding.
1325
01:44:03.690 --> 01:44:04.190
So
1326
01:44:05.450 --> 01:44:08.190
as we try to figure out how to do this right,
1327
01:44:10.410 --> 01:44:10.910
like,
1328
01:44:11.245 --> 01:44:15.425
and and as These coal mines are hard work, man. Right. Exactly. Hard work.
1329
01:44:15.725 --> 01:44:17.344
So so, like,
1330
01:44:17.645 --> 01:44:19.025
you you you have to, like,
1331
01:44:21.730 --> 01:44:25.670
you're gonna have to evolve the hardware. Right? Like, there's a reason why you don't use,
1332
01:44:26.050 --> 01:44:35.230
like, old phones and, like, you know, the the the phone you get a new phone from Apple fucking every year. Right? Sure. You don't get a lot those days, but you used to.
1333
01:44:36.350 --> 01:44:38.850
You used to get substantially new things
1334
01:44:39.230 --> 01:44:44.370
in it, and and remember, right, like, I mean, if you guys were willing to buy a $10,000
1335
01:44:44.750 --> 01:44:47.955
hardware wallet, I mean, you know, I could do magic.
1336
01:44:48.655 --> 01:44:52.034
Like, you're good for fucking 10000 years,
1337
01:44:53.650 --> 01:44:54.150
Seriously.
1338
01:44:55.330 --> 01:45:01.750
But I can't. Right? I have to sell you, like, some $100 device, so I have to work with with, like, economies
1339
01:45:02.675 --> 01:45:04.455
with, like, market economies. So
1340
01:45:05.395 --> 01:45:08.055
we're trying to figure out how to do this stuff,
1341
01:45:08.595 --> 01:45:10.055
in a way that is economical
1342
01:45:10.840 --> 01:45:12.780
and and it's as secure as possible,
1343
01:45:13.240 --> 01:45:28.420
and and if you have to spend an extra $100 every couple of years or so on a new one, well, so be it. And if you don't wanna follow along, well, too bad. So what are you saying? What are you saying? Are you saying the life span's a couple years? Is that what you're saying? No. I mean, listen. Mark one is still more secure than the Trezor
1344
01:45:30.159 --> 01:45:31.219
without the updates.
1345
01:45:32.400 --> 01:45:34.340
So it's not a simple answer.
1346
01:45:35.344 --> 01:45:35.844
Joe
1347
01:45:36.224 --> 01:45:48.440
Joe is asking us why do people keep sharing the ledger list. You have to assume the ledger list is accessed by every single person. Like, that's that's that's just the result. Once it hits the Internet, ask Barbara Streisand about it. Once it hits the Internet, it's done.
1348
01:45:48.900 --> 01:45:52.760
Forget about it. Doesn't know. She's still complaining to her lawyer. Take it down.
1349
01:45:55.285 --> 01:46:00.585
I'm not I see I I've seen that ledger is going around. I know there's, like, one site. I forget intelx
1350
01:46:01.130 --> 01:46:01.610
dot io or something.
1351
01:46:02.570 --> 01:46:04.909
Guys. It's it's done. It's probably a torrent.
1352
01:46:05.290 --> 01:46:14.824
Done. This is not trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube is not the right approach. Best approach is to make sure that all the people that are on this list know that they're on the list.
1353
01:46:15.205 --> 01:46:16.585
Yep. It's done.
1354
01:46:17.130 --> 01:46:23.790
The problem is it's hard to notify them because they're getting so many fucking ledger fake emails sending warning them.
1355
01:46:24.695 --> 01:46:25.195
So
1356
01:46:25.655 --> 01:46:43.840
if if you're you get if you're able to get your hands on the list, you know, do a little pass, see if your friends, your family, anyone you might know is on there and, you know They ask Jeff in and let them know. Tell everybody you know that is not necessarily super, you know, not clicking on the button on an email kind of person,
1357
01:46:44.455 --> 01:46:46.155
Just mark as spam.
1358
01:46:47.495 --> 01:47:02.620
This is why That's it. This is why I mean, Rodolfo, to to push back. Like, this is I mean, that's why Gmail's kinda nice for the average user. Right? Because if a bunch of us are clicking mark spam, then it won't show up in their inbox.
1359
01:47:03.005 --> 01:47:04.705
So for example, till this day,
1360
01:47:05.245 --> 01:47:08.945
we don't accept Yahoo emails on Kuang Kai shopping cart because
1361
01:47:10.060 --> 01:47:25.114
I may have been, like, 5, 6 years, 7 years ago when, Yahoo decided to, block our way of doing DKIM because we do it the right way, and they don't believe in our way of doing it. In an email, sir, such a pain. There's so many challenges. It it's a nightmare.
1362
01:47:25.494 --> 01:47:26.635
So email
1363
01:47:26.970 --> 01:47:31.950
was essentially all cattle into you having to pay a provider,
1364
01:47:33.210 --> 01:47:52.245
period. You cannot run your own email server. We can run an email server. We try. Alex Cho Alex Cho is asking if he's on the list. He said he Fine. Amazon. I personally bought some ledgers from Amazon, and I'm not on the list. I think If you bought from Amazon, you're not on the list automatically. I mean buy hardware wallets outside of the original
1365
01:47:52.705 --> 01:47:53.765
reseller, please.
1366
01:47:54.225 --> 01:48:00.060
I know. The other ones. Amazon. You're on a different list, Alex, but you're not on this list. Exactly.
1367
01:48:01.560 --> 01:48:03.660
You are the IRS naughty list.
1368
01:48:04.600 --> 01:48:20.980
But but but but the reason you shouldn't buy from Amazon isn't because of the list. It's because you might be sent a device that is not the real device. Yeah. That's the risk. Exactly. And and with Ledger, they have the secure element, so when you connect it to Ledger Live, it's supposed to authenticate. So, like,
1369
01:48:21.395 --> 01:48:23.975
out of all of the one out of all the hardware wallets,
1370
01:48:24.514 --> 01:48:26.695
if you're gonna buy any from Amazon
1371
01:48:27.475 --> 01:48:27.975
Don't.
1372
01:48:28.650 --> 01:48:29.550
But you shouldn't.
1373
01:48:30.090 --> 01:48:32.910
No. No. You buy either direct
1374
01:48:34.250 --> 01:48:42.850
okay. Because think about it this way. Amazon is selling your fucking information to everybody else. Yeah. Amazon's a marketing company. Let's be honest. Exactly. Ledger is only leaking it
1375
01:48:45.090 --> 01:48:46.230
to the whole Internet.
1376
01:48:49.010 --> 01:49:05.679
No. But seriously, like, don't. Okay? My diapers in general shouldn't use Amazon. Like, we just shouldn't be using Amazon for this. That is just to Go to your local main street Wait until you have to buy and go buy things from them. Matt, wait until you have to buy diapers. Yeah. Alex Then you're gonna be you're gonna go Amazon maximalism.
1377
01:49:05.980 --> 01:49:09.199
Look, Rodolfo. I've told Marty this, and I'll tell you this on air.
1378
01:49:09.825 --> 01:49:16.165
The important thing is that you price all of your diapers and sets so that it can truly destroy you in 10 years.
1379
01:49:18.039 --> 01:49:20.219
Good. Domains did that to me already.
1380
01:49:22.199 --> 01:49:35.659
Danny wants us to just ledger should have just sold the data and monetized it. They probably already did. Keep it simple, Bitcoin. Just fucking send me a message on Keybase, and I'll send you the fucking list. Bro. We'll we'll hook you up with it and Dude, does anyone else have
1381
01:49:37.260 --> 01:49:44.135
if if any if anyone has an issue where they bought a ledger or whatever, you can send me the email, and I'll look it up for you and let you know.
1382
01:49:44.435 --> 01:49:49.575
Yeah. Oh, so this is a key thing here. Okay? Whenever there is a leak of any website,
1383
01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:52.119
never, never
1384
01:49:52.659 --> 01:49:57.320
go on a website that claims to check for you and type your goddamn information.
1385
01:49:58.325 --> 01:50:07.545
Oh, yeah. That's one thing. That's one thing that's interesting here is that everyone's telling people to go to have I been pwned.com, which I love their website. They're a fantastic website,
1386
01:50:07.910 --> 01:50:10.090
but they they don't tell you if
1387
01:50:10.390 --> 01:50:14.410
if you're part of the email side or if you're part of the mailing address side.
1388
01:50:15.114 --> 01:50:20.655
If because I was part of the email side, and they told me I was part of the email side, but they said
1389
01:50:21.114 --> 01:50:25.099
that addresses were released or whatever. They don't they don't make it clear.
1390
01:50:26.119 --> 01:50:26.619
Gotcha.
1391
01:50:27.639 --> 01:50:28.540
So so
1392
01:50:28.920 --> 01:50:34.835
if you if you go to have I been pwned.com, it might tell you that you've your mailing address has been exposed, but 750,000
1393
01:50:35.455 --> 01:50:43.060
people, that's not the case. Somebody's asking here, Alex Cho, is BlockFi safe? No. BlockFi is not safe, Alex.
1394
01:50:43.600 --> 01:50:52.135
I mean, listen. It's all your money. It's a tricky question. Right? It is nuance. I would say it is as safe as a payday loan website.
1395
01:50:52.835 --> 01:50:55.015
Yeah. Yeah. Payday loans are like the least
1396
01:50:55.395 --> 01:51:05.850
they're like the most malicious fucking financial company. I mean, I know, dude. It's tricky. Right? Like, they're the only people willing to also give loan to people that don't pay back. Right? So it's it's not it's it's complicated.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:35:07 PM
Duration: 8050.155
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.060
2
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:05.700
when Bitcoin was at $10,000.
3
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:08.500
It's a little more challenging
4
00:00:09.355 --> 00:00:11.455
with the current price closer to $20,000
5
00:00:12.635 --> 00:00:13.135
Amazing
6
00:00:13.674 --> 00:00:17.215
over a very short period of time how big of a run up we've had.
7
00:00:18.090 --> 00:00:19.630
But having said that,
8
00:00:20.010 --> 00:00:22.190
our our fundamental work
9
00:00:22.570 --> 00:00:23.550
shows that Bitcoin,
10
00:00:24.090 --> 00:00:25.550
should be worth about $400,000.
11
00:00:26.570 --> 00:00:27.070
12
00:00:28.015 --> 00:00:36.820
13
00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:45.365
14
00:00:46.465 --> 00:00:52.245
Bitcoin? How do you get from where we are now up to 400,000? Is it just based on scarcity?
15
00:00:54.050 --> 00:01:00.310
16
00:01:00.930 --> 00:01:02.790
as a percentage of, GDP.
17
00:01:03.685 --> 00:01:06.505
So, you know, there Bitcoin is actually
18
00:01:07.045 --> 00:01:09.065
has a lot of the attributes of gold,
19
00:01:10.005 --> 00:01:12.105
and at the same time, has an unusual
20
00:01:13.100 --> 00:01:14.640
value in terms of transactions.
21
00:01:15.100 --> 00:01:25.015
22
00:01:25.395 --> 00:01:26.855
23
00:02:04.740 --> 00:02:09.319
What is up, freaks? Welcome to the first ever Citadel Dispatch,
24
00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:11.800
joined by our special guests,
25
00:02:12.645 --> 00:02:14.584
NVK and Evan Kaludis.
26
00:02:14.885 --> 00:02:16.505
Welcome, guys. Yo.
27
00:02:17.045 --> 00:02:21.940
28
00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:23.780
29
00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:26.560
30
00:02:27.455 --> 00:02:28.515
the idea here
31
00:02:28.974 --> 00:02:30.275
is to add
32
00:02:30.894 --> 00:02:31.394
another
33
00:02:32.495 --> 00:02:35.075
another show that you might enjoy to the TFTC
34
00:02:35.375 --> 00:02:35.875
lineup.
35
00:02:36.620 --> 00:02:37.680
This one will
36
00:02:38.220 --> 00:02:42.880
be composed of actionable discussion, and it'll be streamed to your citadels
37
00:02:43.260 --> 00:02:43.760
live.
38
00:02:44.475 --> 00:02:47.455
And from there, we will then put it in the feed as audio.
39
00:02:48.555 --> 00:02:53.660
And I'm was lucky enough to have my good friends, NVK and Evan, here to join us for this one.
40
00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:56.000
So our topics this week
41
00:02:56.540 --> 00:02:57.280
will be,
42
00:02:59.260 --> 00:03:03.034
self custody in general, the recent FinCEN ruling
43
00:03:03.334 --> 00:03:03.834
or,
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I guess, rule that they put forward, and this ledger hack that's going on. And the last 20 minutes, I wanna reserve for audience questions.
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So, as you can see
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in the
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in the stream,
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all of your comments are being streamed live to everyone else as well. So please submit questions,
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provide your feedback while we're while we're discussing these topics, and we will be happy to highlight them at the end of the episode.
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To all the people joining us from the
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podcast feed, I hope this translates well to direct audio.
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We will try to
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explain anything we're showing on screen, but we're gonna try and keep that to a minimum.
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So what's up, guys? What are you drinking?
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double cask.
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It's not too
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decent red wine.
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our guests today
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are very,
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you know, very involved in the self custody space.
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I think both of them would agree with me that you're not actually using Bitcoin if you're not actually controlling your own keys.
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So in that case,
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if you are using a Bitcoin wallet, the only way it is a Bitcoin wallet is if you are controlling your own keys.
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NVK is, the cofounder of Koincite
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and,
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which is the maker of
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my favorite hardware wallet, the Coldcard.
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And Evan is the maintainer the lead maintainer of Zeus,
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Lightning Wallet.
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So
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but both self custody wallets. Self custody has hit the
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the headlines recently because of this recent FinCEN rule. So I before we start, I wanted to just discuss why self custody is important, why we control our own keys as Bitcoiners.
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I was hoping Evan could start here.
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you know, as far as assets go,
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this ability to self custody at such a cheap cost and with such ease is,
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like, really one of the main selling points of Bitcoin to me at least.
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You know, like, if
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if if you were to, I don't know,
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not self custody it and just
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trust someone else, then, you know, you're you're losing out on,
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you know, half the value prop of the asset, I believe.
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And, you know, that that's mostly in,
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you know, censorship resistance, you know,
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not having
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not having to rely on anyone to send a transaction from you, like an exchange or a bank, and for you to be able to do it yourself.
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Because,
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you know, like, perhaps
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you haven't experienced it as an the average citizen of, you know, whatever western country you're probably tuning in from.
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But, you know, if there's
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numerous, countless cases across the world where people,
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you know, they skirt a little close to, you know, doing something their governments
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or someone powerful doesn't like, and they lose access to their bank account, their
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stocks,
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other assets.
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And,
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you know, just taking control of your Bitcoin and putting it on a wallet with the keys that you know and control
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totally mitigates
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that risk. So,
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I think like Matt said, he noted on the head when, he said, if you don't control your own keys and you're not custodying your own Bitcoin,
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you it's not yours.
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You're not using Bitcoin, and what you have is an IOU.
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Not your keys, not your coins. And if you're not gonna self custody, well, they either just sell everything or go buy some GBTC on your 401 k.
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Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, seriously. Right? I mean, what's what's the point? You're gonna have some some IOUs on Coinbase that has way more risk than just some GBTC.
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regulatory risk comes in, like, we've been worrying about that sort of triggered this sort of mad dash we've,
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probably all been experiencing this week. Like,
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what's gonna happen? Those coins are just not gonna be yours anymore. And, you know,
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what were you, in Bitcoin to
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begin with just for the gains?
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I mean, you know, some people
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are you know, they're honestly gonna come in for a number go up and to get rich,
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but
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a lot of people are gonna stay in Bitcoin because it liberates them and gives them a whole new level of freedom.
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you couldn't really self custody. There was no way to self custody assets, I guess, except for
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metal gold. Right? Like, actual
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You know? And and Grid. Yeah. Seriously. I mean dilute you. No. But and and yeah. Sure. Yeah. Aside aside from inflation problems, I mean,
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cash takes a lot of room. Right? So, like, to have your life savings in it. Right? It's it's surprisingly,
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like, a lot of space you need, and you have to keep the mice from eating.
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I mean, just look at the extent the cartels go to bury that shit properly, all vacuum packed, and it's it's very expensive to do that, and, you know, it's gonna get inflated, and then with gold, I mean, seriously,
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I mean,
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you know, first it's like you have to have serious physical security. Right? Like, I'm talking about, like, next level stuff,
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and then, you know, you're gonna lose 10, 15%
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on both ends of the trade. Right? Like and and gold,
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on average, doesn't go even that high. Right? I mean, we had a little run up, which wasn't really a run up for gold. It was just that the the dollar went to shit.
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So stock goes up, gold goes up.
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But,
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you know, I mean, listen. I think this audience already, like, you know, they they understand this stuff, but
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it's it's completely unrealistic. Right? You you can't you can't leave your country if you're gold. Right? They're gonna take it from you. Yeah. You know, Bitcoin, 24 words, you travel, you're gone. Well, I just wanna go back for a second here in terms of
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which is the most common
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way that, that the average person, I guess, has any kind of real experience with self custody.
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And it very much is a substandard experience, and I think it shares a lot of similarities with shitcoins.
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In that, I particularly think you cannot really self custody
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a shitcoin because if there's no hard cap on the supply,
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you can control the keys. You have the keys. No one can spend
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your specific shitcoin.
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But if they can just create infinite shitcoins
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while you're storing those keys,
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then it you don't really
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The USD
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is the least worst shit coin.
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So,
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you know, between
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between, like, all the shit coins available or rather have USD.
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Right?
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Mhmm. You know? And and then you have Bitcoin. Bitcoin is king. Right? I mean, there there is no reason to really hold anything else anymore.
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if you look at the way it's been performing over the last 10 years, you're,
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you know, best off just treating Bitcoin as, like, your, checking account
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and your your savings, really, and, you know, just dipping into it when you need it.
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You know, if you're holding cash, you're a fool. If,
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if you're in the stock market and you're in an index fund, you're gonna lose value against, you know, hard assets like gold and Bitcoin.
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like, modern history. Right? So, like, say the mid century
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onwards. Right? It was not designed for the average person to invest. Right?
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You're a sucker.
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Right?
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No. Seriously, everybody's front running you. Right? And and and you're just, like, bleeding,
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bleeding management fees.
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Right? That this
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the the idea of the average person, right, like, not being able to save just by holding USD,
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right and having to become a professional
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sort of investor
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to just manage their like you know like the yearly
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scrape by savings,
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in stocks is is, like,
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pure insanity.
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Right? Like, people should be able to just save
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without thinking. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You earned, you put it under your mattress. Right? And then, like, 20 years later, you retire. Right? Like, there shouldn't be
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you know, even Cash App, all these apps, right, they let you buy, like, partial
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stocks.
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Right? At least, like, they have a more, like, honest, approachable proposition.
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Right?
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Like, you you know, you you know you're not getting the full yield of of any stock. Right? Like, you're
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you're just doing better than whatever other investment.
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But, like,
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when you are the average average person, right, like, that that wants to have a little bit in the market, right,
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That, you know, you walk into your bank branch,
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you get you're like, computer says yes, computer says no, like investment advisor, the branch. Right? And they're gonna allocate
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some some, you know, a few $1,000
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on on some mutual fund of the bank offers that they, you know, they they rape you from every freaking angle that possibly have. But, you know, dollar keeps on going lower, so
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you you you even with that
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absurdly
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poor investment,
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with all the fees taken, you still do better
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than than holding
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cash. That's how bad cash does now.
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So, yeah, so quick question for you guys. I'm sure you guys have been telling some people that you got into Bitcoin to be pulling off exchanges.
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You guys have, like, you know, first go to wallet on their phone that you guys are recommending.
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I mean, Rodolfo, you're probably sending all your friends gold cards. But, before we get there before we get there, so
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you're holding Bitcoin, and you're not holding Bitcoin unless you're holding your own keys.
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is to hold their own Bitcoin keys. That is that is that is the ultimate. That's where we're going.
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The question is what is that that that process for that average person to get there? I mean, this does not
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having someone else control your wealth obviously has risks. You have to trust that third party. You have to trust governments that are regulating those third parties that you're trusting.
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We saw that with gold with the 6102
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act in the United States,
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where where they took they forcibly took people's gold. And we see it all the time where where money gets seized. We see it with PayPal. PayPal is a perfect millennial example here where they don't wanna freeze people's money. They don't wanna send people's money, but they're forced to by governments,
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and the regulations that they have to comply with. And then we have things like Mt. Gox where you have fraud
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and your money is taken because of fraud, not because of necessarily regulation. So in both those cases, you have third party risk that results in you losing your money. Now self custody reduce removes those risks, but all of a sudden you add personal responsibility risk. So the question is,
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what is that process that that average person goes from going from
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a a a pleb who's trusting third parties to hold their wealth to to a sovereign individual that is holding their own wealth. I think I've like, I've been thinking about this for a few years now,
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Let them play around with it. They lose it, so be it. Right?
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But but just the fact that they went out and bought it. Right? Like, it it's it's one step.
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Right, and then and then after that, it's like that's when you start pestering them, right, like, dude, you know what?
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That's gonna be worth 10 x in 2 years. Right? Almost certain right now, the way it works a bit quite so far.
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So
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so why don't you just, like,
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get an a phone app, right,
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write down the seed on a piece of paper,
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and and and just just take custody of that. Right? And if you're not willing to do that, you know what? Sell it. So I've I've told many friends, sell it and buy some stupid ETF
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on your bank
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mutual fund crap
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of Bitcoin. At least you get some Bitcoin upside. Right?
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Otherwise,
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like, that this is the time you make the decision, right? You either sell it GBTC
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or
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you
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you take custody of it, and if you're gonna take custody of it and it's only $100 right now, you know, download BlueWallet
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or
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or a fully noted,
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or on Android.
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I don't use Android. So,
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And and, you know, like so so that's the first step. Right? Write the seed down
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somewhere. Could be a piece of paper. You know, if you burn, so be it. It was not the end of the world. It was a $100. Right? But at least Well, the paper would have to burn and your phone would have to burn. Right? But but, like, we got them off the ground. Right? Mhmm.
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And then and then now
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they're gonna start seeing returns,
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right, if they didn't buy the speak.
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So
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now you you get them to sort
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of understand that, like, okay. This is a good investment. Right? They're gonna see it that way. Right? Forget about all the the the charged,
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like, politics of Bitcoin or everything else. Right? It's just this is a good investment. Right? I mean, I held this for 1 year. Look how much it is now.
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So
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so now you take them to, what is it? Bitcoin's
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security dog guide. Right? And it's gonna show them step by step basics. Listen. I have I have cold card there, but it could be other hardware wallets. Just the basic.
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Get your
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your seed set up on a hardware wallet,
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make a backup of it, test the backup of it, and that's it. Right?
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So at least not there on the hardware wallet. Point, the testing the backup.
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You have a guide. No. But your guide is guide is better than your guide. My guide only has bullet points.
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You write down the seed. Okay? You put it in metal because paper burns. Okay? You make some some encrypted micro SD backups because you have Okay. Rodolf.
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Before we get to that point, can we just go back to the phone wallet thing?
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Because I think I think for most people We've already done it. They've done it. They have a phone wallet. It takes 2 minutes. I think most people the the mobile wallet is the first step. Right? Yeah. 100%. And and am I a crazy person that I actually think Wait.
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okay,
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any person who's a bit older,
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older people
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hate phones. I personally hate phones too. Okay? Don't do Bitcoin phones. Phones are stupid.
277
00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:54.405
Okay? But older people,
278
00:20:55.985 --> 00:21:03.640
they're not gonna be as as like versed to the phone and understand how phone backups work, any of that shit, so so please take
279
00:21:04.020 --> 00:21:09.160
them and and, like, maybe install Electrum for them. Right? Like, Electrum for all the, like, the UI
280
00:21:10.795 --> 00:21:11.615
and of
281
00:21:11.915 --> 00:21:14.175
it, it's surprisingly simple.
282
00:21:14.875 --> 00:21:46.595
283
00:21:47.215 --> 00:21:51.635
284
00:21:52.335 --> 00:21:53.555
285
00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:56.150
286
00:21:56.450 --> 00:21:56.950
Jim.
287
00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:05.325
Why not? Yo. I do not. There's things they don't do in my life. I don't hold people's money. I don't help people with investments,
288
00:22:05.705 --> 00:22:07.804
and I don't do their their IT.
289
00:22:08.320 --> 00:22:08.820
290
00:22:09.919 --> 00:22:10.980
Okay. Fair enough.
291
00:22:13.840 --> 00:22:14.340
292
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:15.539
point is,
293
00:22:16.625 --> 00:22:21.925
like, Electrum I only say Electrum because out of its wallets, it's it's the it's the most
294
00:22:22.385 --> 00:22:24.405
sort of, like, download and open
295
00:22:24.865 --> 00:22:32.809
wallet. Like, it it truly is for all its flaws. Okay. You download and you open. Look. Keep it simple agrees with me.
296
00:22:33.190 --> 00:22:35.210
Okay. And he teaches people.
297
00:22:35.515 --> 00:22:39.135
298
00:22:39.595 --> 00:22:48.000
299
00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:50.560
300
00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:52.640
it's unusable as a wallet.
301
00:22:54.105 --> 00:22:59.165
302
00:22:59.465 --> 00:22:59.965
fucking
303
00:23:00.585 --> 00:23:05.509
beginner wallet. I think I think most people can can can figure it out.
304
00:23:06.289 --> 00:23:08.950
It's it's completely free open source software.
305
00:23:09.875 --> 00:23:16.535
It complies with, like, pretty much every major standard, so it's a nice get your feet, you know, wet kind of wallet.
306
00:23:17.870 --> 00:23:27.170
Pretty much everyone has a smartphone. Not everyone has a computer. It's easier for the average person to secure secure a smartphone at least from, like, everyone except from the NSA and the US government.
307
00:23:29.115 --> 00:23:32.495
So, like, that path to me makes a lot of sense. And
308
00:23:33.195 --> 00:23:37.280
I almost think for the average person, like, if you're if you're under, like,
309
00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:40.980
50,000,000 sats or something like that, you know,
310
00:23:41.360 --> 00:23:51.955
I I almost prefer to be on a mobile wallet than be on a an on an exchange. Like, I don't know if that is is is that is that a controversial statement? I've taught many seniors,
311
00:23:52.735 --> 00:23:54.275
312
00:23:54.735 --> 00:23:55.235
Electrum
313
00:23:55.695 --> 00:23:56.770
and open it.
314
00:23:57.650 --> 00:24:10.195
I don't think boomers using Electrum is the way. No. I listen. It's different people, different I hate this idea, okay, of, like, a single solution for all the problems because it's like it's completely different people.
315
00:24:10.575 --> 00:24:13.635
Right? It's like different people, different problems, different solutions.
316
00:24:16.410 --> 00:24:19.290
And Fartface 2,000, I think, did some math there for,
317
00:24:19.850 --> 00:24:20.350
Sats.
318
00:24:21.290 --> 00:24:21.955
Is that
319
00:24:22.434 --> 00:24:26.934
what he's saying? I don't know. Or is that the block number? Oh, that's the block number.
320
00:24:27.554 --> 00:24:32.889
321
00:24:33.190 --> 00:24:35.610
322
00:24:35.990 --> 00:25:02.845
323
00:25:03.580 --> 00:25:08.159
324
00:25:08.620 --> 00:25:09.519
huge volumes,
325
00:25:10.379 --> 00:25:11.515
was co pay.
326
00:25:13.195 --> 00:25:16.495
Co pay was actually pretty good for for the average person to use.
327
00:25:16.875 --> 00:25:18.095
328
00:25:18.555 --> 00:25:42.450
329
00:25:43.309 --> 00:25:46.105
330
00:25:46.725 --> 00:25:47.785
agrees with me.
331
00:25:49.525 --> 00:25:51.305
And I I I think I mean,
332
00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:58.960
I'll I'll speak for NVK because I've talked to him privately. He thinks for noobs, it's fine for them to connect to random Electrum servers. Over Thor.
333
00:25:59.345 --> 00:26:03.605
No way, man. I totally I I I think the big problem with Electrum isn't
334
00:26:04.065 --> 00:26:28.120
335
00:26:28.820 --> 00:26:30.920
a way that they cannot they cannot
336
00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:34.920
connect over clear net, period. That's it. They're done.
337
00:26:36.825 --> 00:26:39.485
But, anyways, BlueWallet now does a good job,
338
00:26:40.585 --> 00:26:44.205
and and there is, there's an, what's the name? Explora
339
00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:45.500
from, blockstream.info.
340
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:46.600
No.
341
00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:48.540
Blockstream. Yeah. Blockstream.info
342
00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:49.660
has Explora,
343
00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:53.500
which solves a lot of the the the block query stuff.
344
00:26:54.075 --> 00:26:55.695
Not great for you to be,
345
00:26:59.275 --> 00:27:00.415
how do you call it,
346
00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:03.120
doing clear net
347
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:04.880
with all this block
348
00:27:05.580 --> 00:27:06.640
exploring services.
349
00:27:09.835 --> 00:27:14.335
But, you you know and you can connect over Tor. You can do VPN or something.
350
00:27:14.955 --> 00:27:16.255
But, but realistically
351
00:27:16.555 --> 00:27:17.055
speaking,
352
00:27:17.710 --> 00:27:19.490
for the person that just got a $100,
353
00:27:20.750 --> 00:27:24.210
for them to download a a a node is, like, retarded.
354
00:27:25.915 --> 00:27:27.455
355
00:27:27.755 --> 00:27:28.655
At what point
356
00:27:29.434 --> 00:27:33.535
is the money's you know, the value of the Bitcoin that this person has,
357
00:27:34.060 --> 00:27:36.080
enough that they need a hardware wallet?
358
00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:41.840
359
00:27:42.475 --> 00:27:44.335
and more about their expectation
360
00:27:44.635 --> 00:27:50.895
and where they they wanna go. Right? If you think they're gonna sell their $100 worth of Bitcoin tomorrow,
361
00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:55.770
you know what? Don't don't don't bother learning. Right? Go have fun being poor.
362
00:27:56.630 --> 00:27:57.130
363
00:27:57.990 --> 00:28:03.115
364
00:28:03.975 --> 00:28:06.475
then the first thing you should do is get a harder wallet.
365
00:28:08.910 --> 00:28:16.325
And and what's nice about that is not just the security you get. It it's it's like
366
00:28:16.804 --> 00:28:20.184
it it takes you it forces you through the rabbit hole.
367
00:28:20.565 --> 00:28:25.544
You're gonna have to learn how to do certain things that are not necessarily super simple,
368
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:27.180
for a non
369
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:27.980
decointer.
370
00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:31.660
And, you know, and then you get there.
371
00:28:39.895 --> 00:28:41.915
372
00:28:42.590 --> 00:28:43.950
373
00:28:44.990 --> 00:28:49.330
374
00:28:49.654 --> 00:28:52.394
I just wanna shout out to all the freaks in the chat.
375
00:28:52.934 --> 00:28:55.514
This is what it's all about. Keep them coming.
376
00:28:56.215 --> 00:28:59.759
We want you to be a part of of every Citadel dispatch.
377
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:05.340
So I want to I mean, we just spent 30 minutes about
378
00:29:06.335 --> 00:29:11.554
you know, I I don't wanna be the mom in the room saying we're behind schedule, but we just spent 30 minutes. One second. One second.
379
00:29:12.495 --> 00:29:30.895
380
00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:33.370
Everybody knows the truth now.
381
00:29:34.149 --> 00:29:38.490
382
00:29:39.095 --> 00:29:49.419
is that it's, like, a actually usable light client. Matt, I told you that 1 hour was going to be completely, utterly I just wanted I just wanted to do a shout out to 60102.
383
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:54.380
Part of the reason why I came up with this format for this show
384
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:56.460
is that he's able to
385
00:29:56.934 --> 00:29:57.755
comment live,
386
00:29:58.775 --> 00:30:04.290
without doxing his voice. So I'm glad that he he figured out how to do it. Maybe we should just unlock him.
387
00:30:05.490 --> 00:30:08.230
388
00:30:09.330 --> 00:30:10.870
389
00:30:12.265 --> 00:30:14.925
390
00:30:15.465 --> 00:30:15.965
391
00:30:19.970 --> 00:30:21.350
392
00:30:24.370 --> 00:30:24.870
393
00:30:25.490 --> 00:30:25.890
So
394
00:30:26.674 --> 00:30:29.815
Next. Why are we all here? We're all here because of this fucking
395
00:30:30.674 --> 00:30:31.655
ledger hack.
396
00:30:32.755 --> 00:30:36.580
I mean, I I think that is is is really the talk right now.
397
00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:38.279
I noticed.
398
00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:43.799
We saw we saw a massive leak that happened in June.
399
00:30:45.245 --> 00:30:46.705
Ledger originally said
400
00:30:47.085 --> 00:30:49.425
that it was about 95100
401
00:30:49.885 --> 00:30:52.545
people were affected, I believe, if I recall correctly.
402
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:59.700
It turns out that there was over a 1000000 email addresses compromised and over 250,000
403
00:31:00.080 --> 00:31:00.900
mailing addresses.
404
00:31:02.554 --> 00:31:10.894
Mailing addresses, phone numbers, email addresses. I wish you the the list live on air? I have the list here. No. I have the list too. I I mean, we're not gonna just
405
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:14.660
start showing people's address. It's a joke. Fucking brutal.
406
00:31:17.620 --> 00:31:21.495
407
00:31:22.195 --> 00:31:24.375
You know, a lot of people who work for exchanges.
408
00:31:25.155 --> 00:31:29.310
You know, this is no joke. If you're on there or if your family member's on there,
409
00:31:30.250 --> 00:31:35.710
you know, you need to bring it up to them and, you know, discuss what you're gonna do to
410
00:31:36.235 --> 00:31:45.855
to try to mitigate it. It's it's like a really awful situation, but at this point, the toothpaste is out of tube, and that any determined sicko is gonna be able to get this data.
411
00:31:46.590 --> 00:31:58.595
412
00:31:59.294 --> 00:32:00.995
like, unless you're really,
413
00:32:01.375 --> 00:32:02.434
really, really good.
414
00:32:02.735 --> 00:32:03.235
Okay?
415
00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:07.020
More advanced attackers can find you. Yep.
416
00:32:07.660 --> 00:32:11.925
The problem with this list is that all the morons can find you now.
417
00:32:13.765 --> 00:32:15.785
Like, all the scam artists,
418
00:32:16.165 --> 00:32:17.145
all the
419
00:32:17.525 --> 00:32:19.945
the the people who don't have money for a PI,
420
00:32:20.740 --> 00:32:21.240
like,
421
00:32:21.540 --> 00:32:22.360
it's bad.
422
00:32:24.100 --> 00:32:31.115
423
00:32:31.735 --> 00:32:35.674
the fact that they even went to go and dump this on this hacking marketplace
424
00:32:36.375 --> 00:32:37.995
means that they've sort of exhausted,
425
00:32:39.130 --> 00:32:44.750
you know, the amount of Bitcoin they're probably gonna get out of people with the spear phishing. Yep. But what Rodolfo says,
426
00:32:46.295 --> 00:32:47.835
now you're gonna get the sickos,
427
00:32:48.215 --> 00:32:51.195
the common people that are gonna have this information.
428
00:32:51.575 --> 00:32:51.975
And,
429
00:32:52.855 --> 00:32:55.435
yeah, I I think we're gonna see some pretty bad incidents,
430
00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:56.440
unfortunately.
431
00:32:56.899 --> 00:33:01.320
Matt got linked to one, that was posted on Is it the math for Monero?
432
00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:06.055
433
00:33:06.515 --> 00:33:11.335
434
00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:19.380
Let's read it let's read it to the people. So this this this is for the people that that are listening on the podcast
435
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:20.180
feed.
436
00:33:21.355 --> 00:33:23.295
This was posted by a user
437
00:33:23.995 --> 00:33:24.655
on Reddit.
438
00:33:25.595 --> 00:33:31.055
It seems like this user is, like, a very legitimate user, so I I I don't think that they're
439
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:40.160
they're making this up, but, of course, they could be. But this is the type of threat you could see in this situation. He received a phone call that was was threatening kidnapping and murder.
440
00:33:41.455 --> 00:33:42.275
A male
441
00:33:42.735 --> 00:33:53.429
Anglo accent caller asked if his full name and claim to be a drug addict. He gave him his full address and said he knows I have a lot of Bitcoin. When asked how, he said my information had been leaked on the dark web.
442
00:33:53.890 --> 00:34:35.545
He played dumb and eventually says he purchased a hard a ledger hardware wallet and only loaded cons by them. He told me a sob story about how he's addicted to meth, is about to run out, and needs Monero to buy more. He demanded 10 XMR and said if it's not sent by midnight, he will show up at my house, kidnap me, and stab me to death. Any relatives living at my address, I guess, as well. I was able to record this phone call because I put him on speaker phone. I sent it to the police, filed the police report. They're gonna try and trace the car caller. I doubt they'll be able to, and sent a police car to wait outside, which I'm very grateful for. All of my doors, etcetera, are locked, and I have the officer's phone on speed dial. I just wanna warn everyone about the dangers of Ledger's recklessness. If there's a class action lawsuit, I will gladly join and submit this as evidence.
443
00:34:35.845 --> 00:34:42.185
444
00:34:42.645 --> 00:34:44.105
is that listen.
445
00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:45.760
Data leak
446
00:34:46.220 --> 00:34:51.280
and hacks of servers. Okay? This is not new. This is gonna happen to everyone
447
00:34:51.580 --> 00:34:53.040
Yep. To all the companies.
448
00:34:53.454 --> 00:34:55.315
Yep. Okay? This is like,
449
00:34:56.815 --> 00:35:02.550
you know, your information is already in the dark web for sure. Right? Like a Sears catalog,
450
00:35:02.850 --> 00:35:04.630
a fucking Walmart website,
451
00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:11.395
you know, Amazon, whatever it is. Okay? It's already out there. The problem now is that, like,
452
00:35:11.695 --> 00:35:14.755
imagine if a company that sells high end safes.
453
00:35:15.455 --> 00:35:26.730
Okay. They lose their data. Well, people who buy high end safes are more likely to have something expensive at home. Right? So this is the problem with the with the ledger leak.
454
00:35:27.954 --> 00:35:34.855
So so now there's a lot of guys out there who, you you you don't know that there is something likely in somebody's home.
455
00:35:37.150 --> 00:35:39.650
456
00:35:40.589 --> 00:35:42.130
You know, and it's a shame because
457
00:35:42.494 --> 00:35:43.454
I really have, like,
458
00:35:44.095 --> 00:35:55.160
you know, a good impression of the ledger wallets, I think, from the hardware wallets. It's got a lot of good stuff going from it with a secure element. You know, you can't just take a ledger and pull all the siege off it like you can with a treasure.
459
00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:01.245
460
00:36:01.545 --> 00:36:02.365
100%. No doubt.
461
00:36:02.745 --> 00:36:08.845
462
00:36:10.410 --> 00:36:13.550
is gonna have a good time after this. It might be a killer.
463
00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:17.230
And, you know, they might have to end up selling the tech or restructuring,
464
00:36:18.835 --> 00:36:22.535
but, you know, this is like a giant veil from the side of, management.
465
00:36:23.555 --> 00:36:30.790
And, yeah, I don't know. Just moving forward, it's just gonna be interesting to see what companies do to not try to mitigate this.
466
00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:35.335
Rodolf, I gotta tip my hat to you for taking steps to,
467
00:36:36.535 --> 00:36:39.595
delete customer information after a certain amount of time.
468
00:36:40.215 --> 00:36:42.220
Hopefully, this, you know, inspires
469
00:36:44.540 --> 00:36:45.040
CryptoCloaks.
470
00:36:45.660 --> 00:36:46.960
It's doing something similar.
471
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:52.085
Yeah. It would be really awesome if this became standard in What? Industry.
472
00:36:52.385 --> 00:36:54.965
473
00:36:55.265 --> 00:36:58.725
you know well, first of all, there's 2 things here. First of all, I think, ultimately,
474
00:36:59.910 --> 00:37:03.369
the world becomes a Bitcoin world. So I think this is a
475
00:37:04.309 --> 00:37:04.809
specifically,
476
00:37:05.430 --> 00:37:05.930
Bitcoin
477
00:37:06.390 --> 00:37:07.530
specific lists
478
00:37:08.235 --> 00:37:09.435
are a a
479
00:37:09.835 --> 00:37:13.295
is a short term pain point. Long term, everyone will be a Bitcoiner.
480
00:37:13.995 --> 00:37:33.744
If you're a rich person, you will assume people will assume you own Bitcoin. And if you don't own Bitcoin, they will assume you'll be able to obtain it. We already see this with the ransom attacks with, like, hospitals and stuff. They don't they don't care if the hospital owns Bitcoin. They ransom your data, and they expect you to go get some fucking Bitcoin. Yep. The second thing is, though, in this short term period,
481
00:37:36.040 --> 00:37:38.220
anyone selling product to Bitcoiners
482
00:37:39.240 --> 00:37:40.380
needs to prioritize
483
00:37:41.080 --> 00:37:42.540
privacy over marketing.
484
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:43.900
And and,
485
00:37:44.714 --> 00:37:50.655
yes, this is a personal responsibility movement, and users should be aware of the risks. They should use,
486
00:37:51.630 --> 00:38:03.505
the not they should use burner email addresses. They should use burner phone numbers. They shouldn't mail it to their home. You know, they should get a PO box or remailing address. But at the same time, the companies have to take steps to prioritize
487
00:38:03.805 --> 00:38:05.105
privacy because
488
00:38:05.645 --> 00:38:09.345
they're Bitcoin focused companies. And and we saw this ourselves at TFTC.
489
00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:11.349
We had the merch store,
490
00:38:12.049 --> 00:38:33.410
and we routinely delete the addresses because I've we're so fucking anal about it, and this hit us so hard that Marty just fucking deleted the merge store. Like, we just don't have a merge store. It's not worth it anymore. It's not worth it. Like, why have that data? Like, people have already learned their lessons the hard way about about holding keys hot, Bitcoin hot, but, really, this personal information,
491
00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:38.275
is is is is extremely valuable, if not just as valuable.
492
00:38:38.575 --> 00:38:39.315
493
00:38:40.015 --> 00:38:41.155
If if you're storing
494
00:38:41.455 --> 00:38:42.435
sensitive data,
495
00:38:42.950 --> 00:38:49.370
you have to be able to keep it secure. If you can't not fucking store it. It's it's very tricky. Right? Because
496
00:38:49.910 --> 00:38:51.370
497
00:38:51.805 --> 00:39:08.965
2 aspects of this. Like, forgetting about privacy for a second. Right? There's 2 aspect of this that maybe people don't understand is that, like so, you know, CoinKite, you know, we sell fucked enough shit of devices everywhere in the world, both credit card and and and, and Bitcoin for years. Right?
498
00:39:10.225 --> 00:39:19.630
And there's 2 problems. Right? Like, one problem is the marketing problem, which was not something we care, so we never really had any marketing system
499
00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:28.345
or setup or a newsletter or nothing. I don't think anybody ever got an email from us. So so that part was sort of, like, self resolved.
500
00:39:28.805 --> 00:39:35.430
Right? Even though we have that checkbox saying, you know, if you wanna receive spam checkbox here kinda thing, we actually never used that.
501
00:39:36.150 --> 00:39:37.930
So we never had the emails
502
00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:41.609
on a on a separate marketing system. So most companies,
503
00:39:42.230 --> 00:39:42.970
they will
504
00:39:43.474 --> 00:39:46.855
take those emails from their their shopping system into
505
00:39:47.395 --> 00:39:50.775
a a marketing system. Right? That's what Ledger did.
506
00:39:52.140 --> 00:39:55.920
And I'm sure sort of probably Trezor does that. I'm sure all of them do that.
507
00:39:56.700 --> 00:40:00.214
And by the way, those affiliate links that people use,
508
00:40:00.915 --> 00:40:01.415
okay,
509
00:40:01.954 --> 00:40:03.575
for selling harder wallets,
510
00:40:04.434 --> 00:40:06.135
it it's way worse
511
00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:07.980
because those
512
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:11.420
they're like edge company that tracks
513
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:13.180
the nose if you're pregnant
514
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:15.660
plus your personal information.
515
00:40:16.235 --> 00:40:16.895
Okay? So,
516
00:40:17.995 --> 00:40:21.455
affiliate programs from, like, all Bitcoin companies,
517
00:40:22.635 --> 00:40:24.575
just wait for that to hit the fan.
518
00:40:25.820 --> 00:40:27.280
Okay. So that's one part.
519
00:40:27.740 --> 00:40:32.640
Now the other problem is, like, depending on the country, you have, like, tax
520
00:40:34.115 --> 00:40:37.494
bookkeeping requirements. Right? This is the problem that we have,
521
00:40:38.434 --> 00:40:42.375
in in Canada. Canada, the government requires us to keep
522
00:40:43.109 --> 00:40:43.930
invoice data
523
00:40:44.310 --> 00:40:47.210
for 7 years or 8 years. Can't remember now.
524
00:40:48.869 --> 00:40:49.369
And
525
00:40:49.725 --> 00:40:51.025
they don't specify
526
00:40:51.725 --> 00:40:53.745
exactly what data that is,
527
00:40:54.685 --> 00:41:02.660
but we kinda know because we we've been audit before many years ago being an early Bitcoin company, EA, you get the white glove treatment.
528
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:04.500
And
529
00:41:06.905 --> 00:41:09.305
you you have to sometimes provide what's called,
530
00:41:10.265 --> 00:41:16.820
source of funds. Right? So they they want to just make sure that all those invoices you have are are not like,
531
00:41:17.300 --> 00:41:20.440
you know, people that don't exist in is a money laundering operation. Right?
532
00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:21.960
So
533
00:41:22.660 --> 00:41:23.160
after
534
00:41:23.925 --> 00:41:26.984
some research, we we sort of resolved the problem,
535
00:41:27.845 --> 00:41:29.065
by having people,
536
00:41:30.085 --> 00:41:35.460
actively request your data to be deleted from our system. That's been available for long time.
537
00:41:35.839 --> 00:41:40.455
So you could just ping us and say, hey. Delete all my information, and we did that.
538
00:41:42.135 --> 00:41:46.635
Because then we also have the record of people requesting us to delete the information. Right?
539
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:49.500
But then,
540
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:51.420
you know, after this ledger
541
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:53.020
chit show,
542
00:41:54.680 --> 00:41:59.575
you know, if every single customer is requesting us to delete their information,
543
00:42:01.555 --> 00:42:03.330
you know what? Fuck it.
544
00:42:04.290 --> 00:42:08.550
It's like, you know what? Like, if the government has a problem, so be it. And and so,
545
00:42:08.930 --> 00:42:12.130
you know, we're we're honest company. We pay our taxes, so,
546
00:42:13.315 --> 00:42:16.215
we're gonna go with that and and see where that takes us.
547
00:42:16.835 --> 00:42:21.335
548
00:42:21.790 --> 00:42:24.050
the the way they're set up is they're set up to
549
00:42:24.990 --> 00:42:27.490
to to prioritize data collection over,
550
00:42:28.910 --> 00:42:29.650
data privacy.
551
00:42:29.955 --> 00:42:36.135
552
00:42:36.435 --> 00:42:41.660
this this money laws. I'm talking about modern money laundering shit. I'm talking about just reasonably,
553
00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:45.099
like, older stuff, like, basic tax law. Right?
554
00:42:46.415 --> 00:43:08.184
555
00:43:08.805 --> 00:43:10.825
leave hot wallets just lying around with 1,000 of Bitcoin anymore. Here comes the
556
00:43:14.050 --> 00:43:19.245
557
00:43:19.725 --> 00:43:29.080
Right? Because there could 2 things can happen. Right? One thing is you could have a leak in the system, right, where somebody's siphoning that data before you delete it.
558
00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:30.140
Okay?
559
00:43:30.600 --> 00:43:36.140
Mhmm. 2, the credit card company and the credit card processor have that information if you pay the credit card.
560
00:43:36.695 --> 00:43:39.675
Okay? And then there is also the shipping carriers.
561
00:43:40.695 --> 00:43:43.195
Right? So UPS, FedEx, DHL,
562
00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:48.960
you know, USPS, all this shit. Right? They all have this data. Mhmm. So
563
00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:50.960
the ultimate
564
00:43:51.675 --> 00:43:54.575
issue here is that you cannot trust anyone.
565
00:43:54.875 --> 00:44:03.660
You have to have a PO box. Okay. So you pay Bitcoin, you send to a PO box with an alias or to a business. Send it to your office.
566
00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:05.660
Right? Like, it's perfect.
567
00:44:06.040 --> 00:44:12.724
Mhmm. Even under your own name, it's not the end of the world. Send it to your ex right before you break up with her. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.
568
00:44:13.684 --> 00:44:22.770
569
00:44:25.975 --> 00:44:28.715
570
00:44:29.015 --> 00:44:31.195
another thing. Right? So today,
571
00:44:31.495 --> 00:44:33.275
Jameson Lop was grandstanding,
572
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:38.619
or not grandstanding, but he I felt like he was throwing stones from a glass house a bit,
573
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:58.380
because he said that it was almost victim blaming. He said that people should take personal responsibility and not provide Ledger with this information, and I do agree. And and this is something that Adopa just said. With the sentiment. I do agree with the sentiment that you can't trust anyone. You don't trust, verify. Take it into your own hands, personal responsibility. But one second here.
574
00:44:58.840 --> 00:44:59.340
Casa
575
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:00.700
as a service,
576
00:45:01.935 --> 00:45:06.275
you know, they know all of your intimate transaction information. Like, if you don't
577
00:45:06.735 --> 00:45:12.960
if if you don't use your own node to interact with the Bitcoin network, you're trusting the node you're using. And in Casa's situation,
578
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:24.214
you're trusting their node. And they have all of this super intimate financial transaction information. And all those things you just said about all those other parties that have it Yep. In this case, isn't really
579
00:45:24.994 --> 00:45:36.685
isn't really that. If Casa did it right, and you can't really tell because their app's closed source. But if they did it right, only they have that information. But there's no way to use their product without trusting them with that inter intimate information. So I think
580
00:45:37.645 --> 00:45:40.045
and and and that's not to dismiss the company. Like, I think there's a place for a trust based relationship. It just needs to be disclosed properly. Okay. Like, the trade offs need to be disclosed. Number There's
581
00:45:43.805 --> 00:45:44.270
Law
582
00:45:54.974 --> 00:45:56.994
583
00:45:57.375 --> 00:45:59.234
them knowing your transaction history.
584
00:45:59.615 --> 00:46:04.820
But at the same time, you gotta give Casa props because if you want to, you can use Yes. Your service
585
00:46:06.080 --> 00:46:06.580
pseudonymously.
586
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:08.900
Sorry. Hard word to say.
587
00:46:09.520 --> 00:46:22.615
588
00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:27.800
589
00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:31.320
Casa is a fantastic service
590
00:46:32.464 --> 00:46:36.565
if you use the seed. I don't like the seedless thing.
591
00:46:37.425 --> 00:46:39.285
But aside from that, it's a good service
592
00:46:39.859 --> 00:46:42.519
for people that already have doxxed coins.
593
00:46:43.779 --> 00:46:48.039
Okay? So there is plenty of people in the world,
594
00:46:48.345 --> 00:46:52.445
okay, that we will not have or will not care about
595
00:46:53.385 --> 00:46:53.885
doxing
596
00:46:54.185 --> 00:46:56.765
concerns. Right? You're a fund manager,
597
00:46:57.460 --> 00:46:58.520
You are a fund.
598
00:46:59.140 --> 00:47:06.119
You are somebody who you know, listen. Like, Bitcoin is not your full time thing. You know? Like, me you're you're just
599
00:47:06.535 --> 00:47:11.595
some dude that has a lot of investments and, you know, you don't wanna have to think about
600
00:47:12.055 --> 00:47:13.230
all kinds of, like,
601
00:47:14.190 --> 00:47:15.490
Bitcoin security things,
602
00:47:15.790 --> 00:47:17.490
you know, and you buy on Gemini
603
00:47:17.790 --> 00:47:18.530
or Coinbase
604
00:47:19.150 --> 00:47:20.050
every week.
605
00:47:20.830 --> 00:47:22.105
You know what I mean? And
606
00:47:22.665 --> 00:47:25.005
and you don't mind even giving your name to Casa.
607
00:47:25.545 --> 00:47:34.240
You know, it's like, again, right, different solutions for different people. It works for that. Yeah. I I just I think it's a Can't you say that same thing about Ledger?
608
00:47:35.900 --> 00:47:42.545
Well, Ledger is Ledger is to to say again, right, I still think Ledger, even with this leak, is better than Trezor.
609
00:47:43.245 --> 00:47:46.839
610
00:47:47.220 --> 00:47:48.520
job on the disclosures.
611
00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:50.680
We have record of users
612
00:47:51.140 --> 00:47:58.235
who, after the leak, they went to Ledger. They asked, hey. Was I in the leak? They said no. And then they download the list yesterday,
613
00:47:58.535 --> 00:48:00.235
and they find out their name's in there.
614
00:48:00.935 --> 00:48:01.435
Right?
615
00:48:01.815 --> 00:48:02.315
616
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:04.840
617
00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:06.600
618
00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:08.040
shit shit happens.
619
00:48:08.740 --> 00:48:11.000
Like, it's one of those, like, honestly,
620
00:48:11.405 --> 00:48:16.145
I mean, they they could have handled their PR better. They could have handled a lot of shit better. Yeah.
621
00:48:16.605 --> 00:48:21.670
Like but but the but, you know, it's also not easy. Right? Like, to be
622
00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:22.630
it's
623
00:48:23.089 --> 00:48:26.230
not easy to be a company in the Bitcoin space dealing with Bitcoiners.
624
00:48:26.930 --> 00:48:28.230
God knows. I know.
625
00:48:29.505 --> 00:48:36.405
And and it's not easy to to deal with data leaks, man. Like, you you just you know, it's not an easy thing to handle. Right? Yeah.
626
00:48:37.390 --> 00:48:40.369
At the end of the day, you're gonna get fucked no matter what.
627
00:48:42.510 --> 00:48:42.990
So,
628
00:48:43.470 --> 00:48:44.930
so so there is that.
629
00:48:46.015 --> 00:48:46.495
But,
630
00:48:46.895 --> 00:48:47.795
but I
631
00:48:48.095 --> 00:48:53.840
I I I I wouldn't write them off. It's like I I still think that that, like
632
00:48:54.140 --> 00:49:03.255
633
00:49:03.635 --> 00:49:05.415
you know, companies in the space
634
00:49:05.715 --> 00:49:08.390
fall, especially not Ledger. You know? We like their wallet.
635
00:49:09.269 --> 00:49:12.010
But, you know, it's gonna be a little tricky for them to traverse,
636
00:49:13.190 --> 00:49:17.769
637
00:49:18.855 --> 00:49:30.090
this happens this is the problem that I have. Right? Like, I make a product that's Bitcoin only. Cold card is Bitcoin only. And, you know, I have plenty of customers that when I hold shitcoin and then they ask.
638
00:49:30.710 --> 00:49:37.525
So what's the next best thing that you're gonna suggest I use? I say, well, you get a ledger because Trezor is responsibly
639
00:49:37.984 --> 00:49:38.484
unsafe.
640
00:49:39.665 --> 00:49:46.070
641
00:49:46.850 --> 00:49:49.110
642
00:49:51.490 --> 00:49:54.550
643
00:49:54.915 --> 00:49:56.775
a Trezor and It's gone. It's
644
00:49:57.955 --> 00:50:05.440
not the model t and it's not encrypted, you could just rip the keys off their physical access point. And and even if it is a model t, I mean, like,
645
00:50:07.660 --> 00:50:15.875
646
00:50:18.670 --> 00:50:19.730
647
00:50:20.910 --> 00:50:25.625
648
00:50:26.665 --> 00:50:31.485
pointed to it. Is the Trezor t has this SD card slot, so you can technically encrypt
649
00:50:32.105 --> 00:50:36.580
the secret with the SD card. And if you keep the SD card in a separate place,
650
00:50:38.160 --> 00:50:42.420
than than the device, then you have some physical security added there.
651
00:50:42.984 --> 00:50:56.010
652
00:50:56.630 --> 00:51:03.555
Right? You cannot trust the clock on it. You cannot trust the the signing. You cannot trust the crypto on it. You can't trust anything.
653
00:51:04.174 --> 00:51:04.674
Seriously.
654
00:51:05.055 --> 00:51:10.970
Somebody could change the firmware on that thing, and it's it's like it's there's nothing there to to anything.
655
00:51:11.270 --> 00:51:14.250
656
00:51:14.950 --> 00:51:17.675
Would you say that a air gapped,
657
00:51:18.155 --> 00:51:18.655
Linux
658
00:51:18.955 --> 00:51:22.095
computer would be better than a Trezor running core?
659
00:51:22.475 --> 00:51:23.215
660
00:51:23.915 --> 00:51:25.615
So Linux is the first shitcoin.
661
00:51:27.020 --> 00:51:27.820
662
00:51:28.540 --> 00:51:33.840
663
00:51:37.055 --> 00:51:37.555
Boy,
664
00:51:37.934 --> 00:51:42.355
I don't know. I mean, honestly, this is not not an easy question.
665
00:51:44.750 --> 00:51:47.650
The the the problem with with, like, general purpose computers,
666
00:51:47.950 --> 00:51:50.050
you cannot trust them. Right? Because
667
00:51:50.715 --> 00:51:52.655
you don't you cannot trust the disk encryption.
668
00:51:53.675 --> 00:51:56.255
Like, forget about the super advanced exfiltration
669
00:51:56.795 --> 00:51:59.560
over air gap stuff. Right? But just like
670
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:05.500
but just like the the basics. Right? Like, you just can't trust a disc encryption unless
671
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:08.700
you're running FreeBSD and you built Geely by yourself.
672
00:52:09.045 --> 00:52:09.545
Like,
673
00:52:10.405 --> 00:52:22.960
it's just not simple stuff. Right? Like, average people, even advanced people, when I hear them talk, it's cringey. Like, it's like you don't know what you're talking about. You're gonna get pound. Right? Like, your your maid is gonna take your laptop
674
00:52:23.420 --> 00:52:28.675
and and it's gonna take your keys out of there. Right? Remember, it's gonna we're gonna get back to, like, you know,
675
00:52:28.975 --> 00:52:32.435
2011 when people used to get their their wallet dot
676
00:52:32.975 --> 00:52:35.090
d a t files taken from them.
677
00:52:37.090 --> 00:52:37.590
Sorry.
678
00:52:37.970 --> 00:52:39.190
Brady Swenson.
679
00:52:39.810 --> 00:52:41.110
No. We're not OFA.
680
00:52:44.085 --> 00:52:49.180
681
00:52:49.660 --> 00:52:50.160
Mhmm.
682
00:52:50.780 --> 00:52:54.800
683
00:52:55.900 --> 00:53:00.595
684
00:53:01.375 --> 00:53:03.715
685
00:53:07.190 --> 00:53:09.930
686
00:53:11.589 --> 00:53:14.250
is that the mailing addresses get a lot of publicity.
687
00:53:15.895 --> 00:53:17.835
But these phishing attacks,
688
00:53:18.215 --> 00:53:24.635
it's like it the the phishing attacks are super successful. Like, I Because the UX of this wallet
689
00:53:25.049 --> 00:53:27.789
suck. I just had I had someone today,
690
00:53:28.490 --> 00:53:31.630
right, who wasn't using a hardware wallet, was using Wasabi.
691
00:53:32.525 --> 00:53:37.665
Mhmm. So that takes out the hardware wallet FUD that hardware wallets are more likely to get phished.
692
00:53:38.045 --> 00:53:41.825
Mhmm. And he was having an issue with Wasabi, so he went to the Wasabi Telegram chat,
693
00:53:42.990 --> 00:53:45.410
And a scammer pushed over to him,
694
00:53:45.790 --> 00:53:49.650
and a scammer sent him a link to say that he could help him,
695
00:53:49.950 --> 00:53:55.515
and he put in his seed. And as soon as he put in his seed, the scammer now has access to his funds.
696
00:53:56.615 --> 00:53:58.474
Luckily, I answered his DM,
697
00:53:59.070 --> 00:54:05.650
and we fucking saved his 10 k before the scammer sent it. Geez. But, like, that's ridiculous. Right? Like, that's fucking
698
00:54:06.454 --> 00:54:09.994
and and Do you know why, man? This this cluster I'm showing right now
699
00:54:10.535 --> 00:54:16.210
is a single we were talking about the ledger the ledger dump, data dump that's been circulated
700
00:54:16.590 --> 00:54:27.235
between multiple hackers. Right? So it's it's sold on the dark web, and then it's resold and resold. So there's a bunch of different groups right now trying to exploit it. This is one group, and they've already received
701
00:54:28.095 --> 00:54:29.235
approximately 23
702
00:54:29.535 --> 00:54:30.735
703
00:54:31.295 --> 00:54:34.435
704
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:39.380
over at, like, Samurais Research division. But this is one group, and they've they've
705
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.340
they've gotten 23 fucking Bitcoin.
706
00:54:43.714 --> 00:54:47.654
So so we're talking we're we're talking here at at $600,000.
707
00:54:48.515 --> 00:54:49.335
Right? $700,000.
708
00:54:49.954 --> 00:54:51.894
I I don't do good math live.
709
00:54:52.809 --> 00:55:12.670
But, like, this idea this idea, like, there's definitely a threat of people's home addresses and, like, people coming in and trying to do things there, but there's such low hanging fruit for these hackers to just send out the hundreds of thousands of emails and just hope that some some people put in their seed and then that's that. I still receive
710
00:55:13.050 --> 00:55:15.869
711
00:55:16.970 --> 00:55:23.795
So these lists are gonna be sold and resold and resold and resold and resold. It's forever now,
712
00:55:24.654 --> 00:55:25.154
right?
713
00:55:25.590 --> 00:55:31.690
So, but the problem again, right, is the wallets, right? I mean, yeah, sure, people are idiots,
714
00:55:32.710 --> 00:55:36.615
but aside from that, which is just human nature, it's like,
715
00:55:37.315 --> 00:55:45.450
you know, you have harder wallets that tell users to type, like, pass phrases on our computer or type seeds or type pins.
716
00:55:45.910 --> 00:55:46.410
Like,
717
00:55:47.030 --> 00:55:47.530
it's
718
00:55:47.990 --> 00:55:52.635
like if you tell your users that they have to type their passphrase on a computer, somebody
719
00:55:53.095 --> 00:56:00.960
comes and tells them, hey. Oh, you're gonna lose all your money if you don't type your seed right now on the computer for me. Right? They're gonna believe it.
720
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:14.455
So it it starts with, like, you know, for example, like, Trezza 1 shouldn't be sold anymore. Right? Like, it's not a product that's safe, and and it's it's a product that tells people to type secrets on the computer. Yeah. I think we could all agree about that.
721
00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:22.505
722
00:56:26.102 --> 00:56:26.602
No.
723
00:56:30.020 --> 00:56:34.280
724
00:56:34.980 --> 00:56:36.440
rot and burn.
725
00:56:36.820 --> 00:56:38.205
726
00:56:38.625 --> 00:56:39.125
727
00:56:39.545 --> 00:56:40.425
Well, seriously, it's a
728
00:56:41.305 --> 00:56:41.805
fuck
729
00:56:42.905 --> 00:56:45.085
you. Yes. Bits are terrible.
730
00:56:45.430 --> 00:56:59.905
731
00:57:00.650 --> 00:57:03.050
And, yeah, just put that seed on metal and,
732
00:57:03.770 --> 00:57:10.765
733
00:57:11.464 --> 00:57:17.565
you know and it's part of the Huddl mentality is this idea that you set up your fucking hardware wallet in 2017,
734
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:20.980
and maybe you go over and help your friend do it.
735
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:35.695
They write down their seed, and then they just leave it. You know, maybe they're adding to it, but they're just looking up receive addresses on whatever software they're using, but they're not using it and getting comfortable with it. So in 3 years, when they get that phishing email that says,
736
00:57:36.450 --> 00:57:38.150
you know, funds have been transferred,
737
00:57:38.690 --> 00:57:40.070
and you need to immediately
738
00:57:40.370 --> 00:57:44.445
click this link, they're not comfortable. They don't realize that that's not the proper
739
00:57:54.510 --> 00:58:04.525
receiving and restoring and backing up and doing the whole fucking process over and over again and getting comfortable with it. Yeah. That's why that's why when we designed the UX of Coldcard,
740
00:58:05.704 --> 00:58:09.244
741
00:58:10.345 --> 00:58:11.085
It's like
742
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:12.240
it's
743
00:58:12.560 --> 00:58:20.980
you know, for all the grief that we get about, oh, cold card is not easy to use. Yes. It is. But it also the things that are hard to use are meant to be hard to use.
744
00:58:21.345 --> 00:58:22.164
You're not supposed
745
00:58:22.785 --> 00:58:25.444
to go look at your seed for no fucking reason
746
00:58:25.825 --> 00:58:26.325
unless
747
00:58:26.865 --> 00:58:28.644
your metal backup has melted
748
00:58:29.105 --> 00:58:37.290
and you made bullets out of it. Right? Like, there there there is no reason for a person to ever need we almost omitted that completely from the device,
749
00:58:38.635 --> 00:58:44.735
but but then we created the danger zone part so we can put all the things that we wanted to just remove, but then people might need once.
750
00:58:45.115 --> 00:58:45.935
It's like,
751
00:58:47.170 --> 00:58:51.670
don't don't go look at your seed. Don't make it easy for people to see their seed
752
00:58:52.369 --> 00:58:57.805
because, again, people are idiots, and and they're gonna do it, and they're gonna give it to a scammer.
753
00:58:58.345 --> 00:58:58.845
Yeah.
754
00:59:01.810 --> 00:59:06.230
755
00:59:07.885 --> 00:59:10.385
756
00:59:10.685 --> 00:59:11.585
current steps,
757
00:59:12.285 --> 00:59:16.225
that that steps that people should avoid this kind of risk in the future,
758
00:59:16.730 --> 00:59:22.030
not, you know, trying to hold their personal information as close to their chest as possible, treat it as sacred.
759
00:59:22.970 --> 00:59:24.670
Basically, every life event,
760
00:59:25.290 --> 00:59:30.335
you have to, like, treat as a privacy focused event going forward. Part of the thing that people don't realize
761
00:59:30.875 --> 00:59:37.120
is maybe your email address was leaked in the ledger thing. We have a a 1000000 email addresses were leaked only only.
762
00:59:37.660 --> 00:59:45.295
250,000 addresses were leaked. But if your address was leaked alongside your email in, like, a Ticketmaster leak or
763
00:59:46.315 --> 00:59:49.375
Expedia leak or some other bullshit leak, then
764
00:59:49.809 --> 00:59:54.869
the the malicious individual can cross reference. So if you use the same exact email address,
765
00:59:55.890 --> 01:00:01.675
and and your address was leaked somewhere else, then all of a sudden they have that information or your phone number, they have that information.
766
01:00:02.055 --> 01:00:04.715
767
01:00:05.415 --> 01:00:05.915
about
768
01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:09.200
6 years ago, 7 years ago.
769
01:00:09.740 --> 01:00:10.880
My email is there.
770
01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:12.560
Damn it.
771
01:00:17.645 --> 01:00:19.665
But my email is not linked to anything else.
772
01:00:24.799 --> 01:00:27.859
773
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:35.145
774
01:00:37.285 --> 01:00:39.685
No. It's not. I'm joking. It's like,
775
01:00:40.450 --> 01:00:46.790
776
01:00:48.145 --> 01:00:59.270
777
01:00:59.650 --> 01:01:03.030
778
01:01:03.945 --> 01:01:05.565
and this is very important
779
01:01:06.025 --> 01:01:07.165
to sort of realize.
780
01:01:08.745 --> 01:01:09.245
Like,
781
01:01:10.425 --> 01:01:14.430
if you like, the minimum that I would say is, like, if you have a harder wallet,
782
01:01:15.130 --> 01:01:18.110
the harder wallet has to survive a couple days
783
01:01:18.464 --> 01:01:19.285
in a lab.
784
01:01:19.984 --> 01:01:24.244
Right? Because listen, given an infinite resources, anything's breakable, or anything,
785
01:01:25.105 --> 01:01:25.590
but
786
01:01:26.310 --> 01:01:30.170
most devices will survive with actually low rate
787
01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:31.750
of of of,
788
01:01:32.550 --> 01:01:33.290
of destruction.
789
01:01:33.765 --> 01:01:37.705
Right? So so if they sorry. High rate of destruction. So when they try to
790
01:01:38.485 --> 01:01:44.690
on our case, if they take the the the SC out, they have to shave the bottom of it, and then they have to beam a $250,000
791
01:01:46.030 --> 01:01:51.410
laser to it, and then they have to get it out, and then they have to pair the secret of the other chip. Right? So
792
01:01:52.015 --> 01:01:57.635
in this whole ordeal, you have to have a $1,000,000 plus lab and it's gonna take a few days. Right?
793
01:01:57.935 --> 01:02:00.835
That gives you time to get your money out.
794
01:02:01.900 --> 01:02:02.400
Right?
795
01:02:04.140 --> 01:02:12.685
And and you're getting other security features because of the SE. Right? Like, you can trust the firmware better. There's other things that you get out of it. Mhmm.
796
01:02:13.005 --> 01:02:16.625
The problem that I have with a toaster like hardware wallet
797
01:02:17.390 --> 01:02:21.330
is literally is the same chip as a toaster. Right? We kinda have the same MCU.
798
01:02:22.750 --> 01:02:24.290
Microwaves would have that chip
799
01:02:24.645 --> 01:02:24.965
Very
800
01:02:25.605 --> 01:02:26.585
801
01:02:26.964 --> 01:02:28.665
802
01:02:29.525 --> 01:02:30.025
microchip.
803
01:02:30.484 --> 01:02:39.770
So it's the one that it can put open source in it. Let's put it this way. The chip itself, it's like the specs are open, but, like, calling open source is a stretch.
804
01:02:41.350 --> 01:02:41.850
So,
805
01:02:43.125 --> 01:02:46.425
so anyway, so so the problem with those is that you can cheat everything.
806
01:02:47.045 --> 01:02:49.945
There's just no security of anything.
807
01:02:50.250 --> 01:02:53.869
You're just sort of, like, trying to skate on ice with, like, socks.
808
01:02:54.250 --> 01:02:58.430
Right? That's the problem with, with an MCU based hardware.
809
01:02:58.730 --> 01:02:59.230
No
810
01:02:59.665 --> 01:03:01.045
no SC at all.
811
01:03:03.265 --> 01:03:07.125
And, that that's the Trezor situation. It's kinda tragic, really.
812
01:03:10.720 --> 01:03:15.220
813
01:03:15.680 --> 01:03:24.985
is multi sick, right, with multiple different types of signers. It solves a lot of these issues. Yes and no. Right? Because I see more people fucking themselves over
814
01:03:25.310 --> 01:03:26.290
815
01:03:26.910 --> 01:03:35.375
That that's the most common ticket out of the people who lose money is I did something wrong and I screwed myself out of my money, especially multisig.
816
01:03:36.955 --> 01:03:43.775
I think, what BlueWallet is doing now is similar to what Copay did back in the day and similar to what Quinkite did way back in the day,
817
01:03:44.180 --> 01:03:47.160
which is like it's it's a more reasonable way of doing multisig.
818
01:03:48.340 --> 01:03:51.080
It's getting there. It's not quite there yet.
819
01:03:52.315 --> 01:03:54.335
I think I think it's gonna get better,
820
01:03:56.075 --> 01:03:56.575
and
821
01:03:56.875 --> 01:04:07.210
and in my in my like, especially the market pushing and people having more money and people willing to spend more money, I think the market is gonna come up with a very good multisig solution
822
01:04:07.885 --> 01:04:08.625
that is non,
823
01:04:10.445 --> 01:04:11.745
that's non doxing,
824
01:04:13.085 --> 01:04:18.000
in a year or 2. I think things will will come out. Like, the market will provide solutions,
825
01:04:18.940 --> 01:04:28.445
for these things, and and also for privacy problems too. This is all market problem. Right? Like, eventually, there will be better ways for you to ship stuff without doxing yourself
826
01:04:28.905 --> 01:04:31.885
because somebody's gonna come up with a service to solve that problem.
827
01:04:32.470 --> 01:04:33.770
The same with multisig,
828
01:04:35.590 --> 01:04:38.410
these things are not easy problems. They really aren't,
829
01:04:39.190 --> 01:04:41.690
and and especially with the current tech for multisig,
830
01:04:42.375 --> 01:04:51.950
maybe with Taproot, and once you have threshold signatures, you can do a lot more interesting shit. Mhmm. Maybe that's what's gonna happen. Right? Like, it's very possible
831
01:04:52.890 --> 01:04:54.030
that we're gonna leap,
832
01:04:54.970 --> 01:04:56.590
multi sig white adoption
833
01:04:57.290 --> 01:04:58.974
for the average person.
834
01:04:59.835 --> 01:05:08.120
Oh, like, most big businesses, most exchanges use multi sig. Right? I'm talking about just, like, average people or self custody kinda deal.
835
01:05:08.580 --> 01:05:13.480
I think we might end up leaping multisig into Moosig, which is the Taproot stuff.
836
01:05:14.855 --> 01:05:19.035
That that has a lot more interesting things that you can do without Doxy,
837
01:05:19.655 --> 01:05:25.720
838
01:05:26.260 --> 01:05:30.440
Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other can of worms. But important points that you, made there, you know,
839
01:05:31.005 --> 01:05:31.505
complexity.
840
01:05:32.205 --> 01:05:38.224
You know, you don't wanna be shooting yourself in the foot. If you do a multisig setup, you know, test it thoroughly before you do it.
841
01:05:38.605 --> 01:05:39.665
But, you know, ultimately,
842
01:05:39.965 --> 01:05:46.450
multisig is gonna be a great solution, especially if you don't trust shysters like this Rodolfo guy over here, you know, but a different,
843
01:05:46.830 --> 01:05:47.330
manufacturers,
844
01:05:48.904 --> 01:06:03.795
you know, wallet into the multisig quorum could really go a long way. And not even if it's just, you know, trusting the manufacturer, but if they have Don't trust us or don't trust any manufacturer. Yeah. Don't don't trust this guy. Come on, Gus. But, you know, if there's a bug,
845
01:06:04.714 --> 01:06:08.055
you know that you're only you won't be affected if you're in that multisig
846
01:06:08.355 --> 01:06:13.575
setup because the bug only affects the one device that, you know, they found the exploit for.
847
01:06:13.930 --> 01:06:14.089
So,
848
01:06:14.730 --> 01:06:18.030
yeah, as far as multisig goes, I think we made
849
01:06:18.490 --> 01:06:23.150
a lot of, great strides in the products that we're seeing. Spectre, 1st and foremost,
850
01:06:23.855 --> 01:06:24.355
Sparrow,
851
01:06:25.055 --> 01:06:28.735
and, Nunchuk to a lesser extent. I know that one's not open source yet.
852
01:06:29.055 --> 01:06:33.980
But we're going in the right direction, and, you know, that's a reassuring thing. And so
853
01:06:36.120 --> 01:06:37.500
854
01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:46.285
One of the main goals I want with this show going forward and today being the first episode is that I wanted to be filled with actionable,
855
01:06:47.145 --> 01:06:50.845
advice, things that people, big corners around the world can actually use. So
856
01:06:51.170 --> 01:06:52.390
we have a bunch of people,
857
01:06:53.250 --> 01:06:54.549
a 1000000 email addresses,
858
01:06:55.410 --> 01:06:56.230
over 250,000
859
01:06:57.250 --> 01:07:00.390
emails, mailing address, and phone number have been compromised.
860
01:07:02.315 --> 01:07:07.855
We've gone over what Bitcoiners should do to try and avoid that happening to them in the future. But if it already happened to them,
861
01:07:08.830 --> 01:07:14.130
how should they proceed? What are some real steps they can take to try and protect themselves? We got Nick over here,
862
01:07:14.670 --> 01:07:16.370
who I've highlighted his comment.
863
01:07:17.315 --> 01:07:22.055
It appears he got an email verification email from Coinbase yesterday with his compromised
864
01:07:22.355 --> 01:07:29.240
email account. Nick, if you wanna comment real quick, I my my assumption is here is that you don't have a Coinbase account, and,
865
01:07:30.420 --> 01:07:36.964
the attacker is trying to make a Coinbase account in your name maybe, or they they try to sign in via your account?
866
01:07:38.464 --> 01:07:44.030
867
01:07:44.410 --> 01:07:46.350
a freaking email from any
868
01:07:46.810 --> 01:07:50.984
any supplier, vendor, website, whatever it is, you always
869
01:07:51.845 --> 01:07:52.505
you you remember?
870
01:07:52.885 --> 01:08:01.820
So, say, Coinbase sent me an email. Great. You delete the email, so you don't click on it for sure, and then go log in on Coinbase and then see what's up. Absolutely.
871
01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:08.345
It's just you don't you don't click on emails like nothing, and seriously, use a text only email
872
01:08:09.045 --> 01:08:09.545
client.
873
01:08:10.005 --> 01:08:14.665
Well, I mean, listen. The the the clientele of this podcast is probably a little bit more sophisticated.
874
01:08:15.045 --> 01:08:16.425
Right? This is not
875
01:08:17.190 --> 01:08:19.450
this is all uncle Jim's watching us.
876
01:08:19.830 --> 01:08:20.810
So, seriously,
877
01:08:21.190 --> 01:08:26.985
stop using Gmail. Stop using any client on the browser, all this crap. Just go have mutt
878
01:08:28.565 --> 01:08:36.560
look up mutt email client, install that, only use that. It's all text based. You can see the headers. You can see everything that's going on.
879
01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:40.560
Right? Stop just trusting whatever you see on a computer.
880
01:08:43.325 --> 01:08:54.910
881
01:08:56.250 --> 01:08:59.150
Now for people who got caught in this ledger thing,
882
01:08:59.695 --> 01:09:03.875
well, if your phone number is in there, you might wanna change that if you can.
883
01:09:04.175 --> 01:09:05.555
Your email, you might wanna
884
01:09:06.175 --> 01:09:08.355
get rid of that. If you can move,
885
01:09:09.690 --> 01:09:14.350
if not, you probably wanna arm yourself. Get a file, if you can, in your jurisdiction.
886
01:09:14.730 --> 01:09:24.275
Yeah. Make sure this is something that's okay in your country. Yeah. Yeah. You have the location that's against the law and, endorse that. If you live if you live in England, get a butter knife, a firearm
887
01:09:24.914 --> 01:09:27.450
A dust. Arm and defend yourself and your family.
888
01:09:27.990 --> 01:09:34.410
889
01:09:34.785 --> 01:09:35.525
is that,
890
01:09:37.344 --> 01:09:38.645
you're gonna find out,
891
01:09:39.905 --> 01:09:44.324
through the news if there are bad guys in your city who are willing to do damage
892
01:09:46.610 --> 01:09:47.429
or not.
893
01:09:47.889 --> 01:09:50.230
So you can check the list to see how many,
894
01:09:50.610 --> 01:09:59.975
people got licked in your city and if it's like a decent enough amount of people. It's a it's an interesting thing to watch in the news. You you're gonna find out a lot about your jurisdiction
895
01:10:00.435 --> 01:10:03.090
by the amount of people that get kidnapped or killed.
896
01:10:06.210 --> 01:10:06.949
Too dark?
897
01:10:07.330 --> 01:10:12.715
898
01:10:13.655 --> 01:10:29.680
899
01:10:33.135 --> 01:10:35.155
900
01:10:37.455 --> 01:10:39.715
Bitcoiners think we invented these concerns.
901
01:10:41.250 --> 01:10:43.670
These concerns exist with every rich person.
902
01:10:44.450 --> 01:10:46.790
Like, every visibly rich person
903
01:10:47.250 --> 01:10:49.750
considers these these types of situations.
904
01:10:50.514 --> 01:10:52.614
905
01:10:52.994 --> 01:10:53.974
a bank level.
906
01:10:54.835 --> 01:11:01.980
907
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:11.795
with no Bitcoin involved. Oh, man. Right? There's private securities. There's walls. There's gates. There's off duty police officers that are acting as private security.
908
01:11:12.495 --> 01:11:15.590
909
01:11:18.550 --> 01:11:20.969
That's what you send to ask for money.
910
01:11:24.125 --> 01:11:28.465
911
01:11:30.364 --> 01:11:34.980
912
01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:36.420
is
913
01:11:37.360 --> 01:11:37.860
a,
914
01:11:38.160 --> 01:11:40.660
you know, the the this is a a a specific
915
01:11:41.715 --> 01:11:43.015
growing pains period
916
01:11:43.555 --> 01:11:46.535
where Bitcoiners will be targeted, because, ultimately,
917
01:11:47.315 --> 01:11:48.695
every single rich person
918
01:11:49.090 --> 01:11:58.710
will be a Bitcoiner in 5 years. Like, if, like, if you if if you don't own Bitcoin, you're not wealthy. Like, why don't you own Bitcoin? Like, that if it's the best money,
919
01:11:59.075 --> 01:12:00.935
if it's designed to pump forever,
920
01:12:01.875 --> 01:12:04.375
like, you're gonna have significant assets in Bitcoin,
921
01:12:04.835 --> 01:12:08.090
and you should have at least some of it in self custody,
922
01:12:08.470 --> 01:12:17.205
1, if you're not an idiot, and 2, just in case there's, like, a ransom situation and you need to get it quickly. I think the most important thing is we should all be in a position
923
01:12:18.385 --> 01:12:21.125
924
01:12:21.505 --> 01:12:22.245
our wealth
925
01:12:22.785 --> 01:12:23.445
in person.
926
01:12:23.905 --> 01:12:25.150
It's as simple as that.
927
01:12:25.790 --> 01:12:32.290
Right? Like, my case, somebody comes to my house. I I literally am not able to sign my wealth, period.
928
01:12:33.355 --> 01:12:35.535
Right. It's a it's a multiday,
929
01:12:35.995 --> 01:12:36.495
multilocation,
930
01:12:37.435 --> 01:12:39.055
multi problem thing.
931
01:12:39.490 --> 01:12:40.230
Right. It's
932
01:12:40.530 --> 01:12:44.710
gonna take that that attackers are gonna have to wait a month or 2
933
01:12:45.010 --> 01:12:46.870
together having tea in the house.
934
01:12:48.224 --> 01:12:51.764
With me traveling to multiple place, it's very complicated.
935
01:12:52.385 --> 01:12:53.364
Right? Absolutely.
936
01:12:53.824 --> 01:12:56.724
So so in that sense, I mean, it's like,
937
01:12:57.260 --> 01:12:58.480
you know?
938
01:12:59.340 --> 01:13:01.920
And then and they also might have to deal with me.
939
01:13:03.099 --> 01:13:03.599
So
940
01:13:04.435 --> 01:13:06.775
you you just you you need to be in a position
941
01:13:07.155 --> 01:13:11.735
where you're just simply not able to help your visitors immediately
942
01:13:12.430 --> 01:13:13.170
by default,
943
01:13:16.430 --> 01:13:17.969
944
01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:21.969
the risk of k y c here are even greater. Right? The actual
945
01:13:22.494 --> 01:13:26.755
knowing the the exact balances that people have, knowing the exact amount someone has,
946
01:13:27.934 --> 01:13:32.114
it provides a much greater risk, and people should take that more seriously. Would you agree?
947
01:13:34.160 --> 01:13:35.460
948
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:37.860
so not doxing your TXOs
949
01:13:38.240 --> 01:13:42.295
go a long way. Right? If people don't know how much you have is a big deal.
950
01:13:42.675 --> 01:13:46.935
Right? I mean, like, sure. You know, we show up in podcast, whatever. People can wonder,
951
01:13:47.430 --> 01:13:56.170
you know, if they only they knew that everybody that's in a podcast like this probably sold everything to invest in their own businesses at some point. But aside from those problems,
952
01:13:58.545 --> 01:14:06.150
it it's like if people don't know what you have, it's they're more they're less likely to look at you, then you're gonna probably go after somebody else
953
01:14:06.610 --> 01:14:08.790
that that is more obvious. Right? Like,
954
01:14:10.690 --> 01:14:14.675
it it's like flashing wealth is never a good thing to begin with.
955
01:14:16.255 --> 01:14:16.755
And,
956
01:14:19.790 --> 01:14:23.890
like, listen again. Right? Like and I and I can't understate this. It's like
957
01:14:24.510 --> 01:14:29.625
advanced attackers can find you and will find you. Right? So so don't don't
958
01:14:30.165 --> 01:14:35.705
don't believe that you're just because you have some name on Twitter, like, you were unfindable. Right? Like,
959
01:14:36.200 --> 01:14:38.140
there is some smart people out there.
960
01:14:38.920 --> 01:14:41.340
So so try not to dock your UTXOs
961
01:14:41.719 --> 01:14:45.020
in any service to begin with. That that's goes a long way.
962
01:14:45.825 --> 01:14:50.885
Then the second thing is just make sure you can't sign for it in a in a moment's notice. Right?
963
01:14:53.150 --> 01:14:56.210
I think that's, that's the best advice I can give.
964
01:15:00.190 --> 01:15:02.370
965
01:15:03.105 --> 01:15:04.485
So after Freak Mobile.
966
01:15:07.905 --> 01:15:10.645
Yeah. I mean, I the it's a it's a very nuanced
967
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:17.139
it's a very nuanced discussion, and people are gonna need to you know, personal responsibility will always be the more difficult,
968
01:15:18.805 --> 01:15:22.265
will always be the more difficult path. I I think it it's just like
969
01:15:22.645 --> 01:15:29.900
970
01:15:32.519 --> 01:15:33.019
so
971
01:15:33.639 --> 01:15:37.185
and the baddest guide of all the state, But aside from that,
972
01:15:39.185 --> 01:15:39.685
like,
973
01:15:40.145 --> 01:15:42.965
we are gonna see a lot of market solutions
974
01:15:44.350 --> 01:15:48.850
as things evolve. Right? Like, it's just that we don't have, like,
975
01:15:49.390 --> 01:15:52.210
don't believe in the the bullshit out there. If there is
976
01:15:53.475 --> 01:15:55.655
5,000,000 to 10,000,000 people
977
01:15:56.035 --> 01:16:00.215
that own more than $50 worth of Bitcoin, it's probably, like, an overestimation.
978
01:16:03.130 --> 01:16:05.230
Like, that's aside from the shitcoins.
979
01:16:06.650 --> 01:16:07.630
I I think
980
01:16:08.250 --> 01:16:11.835
is is is a critical mass of consumers,
981
01:16:13.014 --> 01:16:14.155
coming to the market.
982
01:16:16.490 --> 01:16:19.630
You can have more r and d and more solutions,
983
01:16:20.570 --> 01:16:21.070
and
984
01:16:21.530 --> 01:16:24.945
and you can solve these problems. Right? Like, these are all
985
01:16:25.344 --> 01:16:32.405
tech problems, really, you know, way or another. Right? Like, you can come up with devices that will be able to cosign things.
986
01:16:33.425 --> 01:16:34.804
They'll be able to prove
987
01:16:36.210 --> 01:16:39.910
to an attacker in your house that you don't have the funds there, that
988
01:16:40.770 --> 01:16:41.270
that,
989
01:16:42.185 --> 01:16:50.764
that, you you know, you can have panic buttons that will sort of lock the funds in some in some time lock to an emergency address.
990
01:16:51.150 --> 01:16:54.370
So all kinds of shit that that will show up,
991
01:16:56.430 --> 01:16:56.930
including,
992
01:16:57.390 --> 01:16:58.930
you know, security services,
993
01:17:00.515 --> 01:17:02.135
you know, intelligence services
994
01:17:02.675 --> 01:17:03.575
for security.
995
01:17:03.955 --> 01:17:12.760
Like, some of the stuff already exists for very wealthy people. Right? Like, they they will have people monitoring their lives to make sure there's no threats. Right? Mhmm. So
996
01:17:13.140 --> 01:17:14.745
a lot of these things will come about,
997
01:17:15.625 --> 01:17:18.685
and and, you know, and they they will come into this space as
998
01:17:18.985 --> 01:17:23.165
well. These these are not simple problems. They're extremely locally
999
01:17:23.625 --> 01:17:32.845
based as well. Right? Like, if you live in in you know, where does Vitalik live now or, like, where you put a scammer like that? Switzerland somewhere. You
1000
01:17:33.465 --> 01:17:39.360
know, I'm sure there's no crime. There's nothing there. Right? So it's, like, different problems. Right?
1001
01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:46.900
You know, if you grew up in Sao Paulo, I mean, Sao Paulo is just Sao Paulo in an everyday problem base. Right? It's like nothing has changed.
1002
01:17:47.855 --> 01:17:52.995
So Bitcoin or credit card is still, like, you know, in an armored car. Right?
1003
01:17:54.095 --> 01:18:05.860
These things will evolve, and and we're gonna sort of figure out, like, how how to go about it. I I wouldn't be I wouldn't lose sleep over it, just just make sure that you cannot sign your funds
1004
01:18:06.295 --> 01:18:08.074
in a in a notice space.
1005
01:18:10.614 --> 01:18:11.914
1006
01:18:12.614 --> 01:18:15.195
You know, multi sig is going a long way, and
1007
01:18:15.540 --> 01:18:18.920
you should definitely think about putting a setup like that if possible,
1008
01:18:19.700 --> 01:18:23.080
multi jurisdictional, you know, corrupt different countries if you can.
1009
01:18:23.514 --> 01:18:24.014
1010
01:18:24.795 --> 01:18:29.775
1011
01:18:30.635 --> 01:18:34.139
and, you know, things are becoming easier and more accessible.
1012
01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:39.329
But, you know, as you get more wealth in Bitcoin, these are things you're gonna have to,
1013
01:18:40.425 --> 01:18:42.765
think about. And, it's part of the game
1014
01:18:43.065 --> 01:18:44.605
of the personal responsibility
1015
01:18:44.985 --> 01:18:52.900
1016
01:18:53.360 --> 01:18:54.659
on a on a loan
1017
01:18:55.295 --> 01:19:10.580
against the Bitcoin to buy things. Right? Like, they're gonna buy houses. They're gonna buy they they need to live their lives. Right? Yeah. They're gonna have college. Like a block 5. Right? Like they're gonna have their stuff parked in places that they can't even move even with the gun to the head. Right? They wish they could move.
1018
01:19:11.945 --> 01:19:16.205
So I I the these things will start themselves out. It's just so early.
1019
01:19:17.304 --> 01:19:22.199
1020
01:19:22.500 --> 01:19:24.520
helps is is big. And,
1021
01:19:25.300 --> 01:19:27.355
our boy 61 or 2, who is
1022
01:19:27.835 --> 01:19:30.575
being actively censored right now by this,
1023
01:19:32.235 --> 01:19:32.975
chat feed,
1024
01:19:34.235 --> 01:19:34.555
would
1025
01:19:35.100 --> 01:19:37.280
his big thing is multi jurisdictional
1026
01:19:37.900 --> 01:19:40.699
1027
01:19:41.020 --> 01:19:41.520
1028
01:19:41.980 --> 01:19:47.735
this idea that you have to your keys are in different jurisdictions. So not only does, like, your average,
1029
01:19:48.594 --> 01:19:58.469
you know, burglar have issues with trying to compromise your key setup, Your actual government is gonna have major issues. They're gonna have to put you into fucking jail and then
1030
01:19:58.850 --> 01:20:10.505
1031
01:20:10.840 --> 01:20:15.980
To, like, in a non extradition country or something. Right? Like, what? Is the bad guy gonna go with you on the flight?
1032
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:18.140
Right?
1033
01:20:18.605 --> 01:20:29.460
Like, things does get tricky. Right? Like so this is what I'm trying to explain. It's like you put yourself in a position that, like, it's gonna take a literal month or 2 for you to sign out
1034
01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:30.739
your $10,000.
1035
01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:32.739
1036
01:20:34.560 --> 01:20:36.340
That the seeds being distributed,
1037
01:20:36.735 --> 01:20:40.034
I mean and then on top of that, you could throw BIP 38
1038
01:20:40.415 --> 01:20:50.260
passphrases on top of them too. So even if the attacker was able to get all your keys, they still need to get the password out of you. There's so many different things you can Or or even a passphrase. Right?
1039
01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:51.220
Passphrase.
1040
01:20:52.320 --> 01:20:55.540
1041
01:20:56.735 --> 01:21:01.875
And and if you're doing your passphrase right, you cannot remember it. Yeah. Passphrase is like poor man's multisig.
1042
01:21:02.495 --> 01:21:03.720
No. It's it's
1043
01:21:04.200 --> 01:21:06.540
so What? What a beautiful thing about passphrase is,
1044
01:21:07.160 --> 01:21:15.135
it depends. Like, listen. Different people, different problems. Right? Mhmm. But one nice thing about the past phrase is that the past phrase does not have Bitcoin complication.
1045
01:21:15.995 --> 01:21:21.310
Right? It's just like a a salt essentially on top of it. Right? It's just like a little sprinkle
1046
01:21:22.010 --> 01:21:24.750
of entropy on top of your of your seed.
1047
01:21:26.490 --> 01:21:26.990
And
1048
01:21:27.850 --> 01:21:28.350
and,
1049
01:21:28.744 --> 01:21:38.204
like, that helps a lot because you can still have a simple wallet. Right? You don't have to complicate anything with because see, one people one thing that people need to make sure is if you're using multisig,
1050
01:21:38.730 --> 01:21:41.710
you have a copy of the redeem script
1051
01:21:42.570 --> 01:21:50.945
because you don't know if this wallet provider will be around tomorrow. It's the reason why we started, like, the what was what's the website again? Wallets recovery.org.
1052
01:21:51.485 --> 01:21:54.410
1053
01:21:55.030 --> 01:22:07.855
redirects to coinkite. So just you should redirect it to Does it? Dot org, you asshole. Oh, it's old. No. I have that I have that link. This is me telling you to redirect it to the proper site. Oh, you know what? Just because you said that I won't.
1054
01:22:10.790 --> 01:22:11.290
1055
01:22:13.110 --> 01:22:16.355
I have no ads on that website. Goddamn it. Walletsrecovery.org.
1056
01:22:17.215 --> 01:22:17.875
1057
01:22:18.335 --> 01:22:20.355
1058
01:22:21.935 --> 01:22:28.020
and and their website only shows the derivation path. Right? I mean, it doesn't even have the redeem script to some of these wallets.
1059
01:22:28.640 --> 01:22:29.140
So,
1060
01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:33.700
if you are gonna use multisig for real money,
1061
01:22:34.045 --> 01:22:37.505
please have a key a a copy of your redeem script.
1062
01:22:38.365 --> 01:22:41.345
You need to be able to recover without the original wallet.
1063
01:22:41.780 --> 01:22:47.800
And with multisig, that is that can be a monumental problem. It could be irredeemable
1064
01:22:48.340 --> 01:22:48.840
problem.
1065
01:22:49.460 --> 01:22:50.840
Seriously, it could.
1066
01:22:52.395 --> 01:22:52.895
So,
1067
01:22:53.435 --> 01:22:58.495
so, so, yeah, so so that's one nice thing about the the pass phrase, especially for nontechnical people.
1068
01:22:58.830 --> 01:23:03.890
Pass phrase, you know, you have your seed in one place, you have your pass phrase in another, and,
1069
01:23:04.590 --> 01:23:12.305
you know, it's you know, if the entropy is right on this on the on the pass phrase, a 128 a 128 bits at minimum,
1070
01:23:13.165 --> 01:23:16.140
in all, you're good. How many is that? Six words
1071
01:23:18.120 --> 01:23:20.060
or 12 words? I can't remember now.
1072
01:23:21.480 --> 01:23:23.980
1073
01:23:24.885 --> 01:23:36.969
1074
01:23:37.270 --> 01:23:43.315
Yeah. Well, your micro SD cards default to 12. Yeah. So so that's that's it. Was that the question?
1075
01:23:43.695 --> 01:23:45.635
Anyways, go with that. Go with 12 words.
1076
01:23:48.015 --> 01:23:50.035
It's like it's half of a seed plate,
1077
01:23:50.500 --> 01:23:51.960
and it's a full of
1078
01:23:52.420 --> 01:23:53.640
some of the other plates.
1079
01:23:55.220 --> 01:23:55.720
And,
1080
01:23:56.340 --> 01:23:57.000
you know,
1081
01:23:57.300 --> 01:24:05.645
and then, like, I mean, good luck to an attacker. Right? Like, I mean, you're you're way past the point where somebody who who could own you entropy wise.
1082
01:24:07.469 --> 01:24:15.810
And it's nice. It's like it's like a lot of this stuff is like it may sound difficult, but it's peace of mind. Right? Like, you know, you can sleep at ease.
1083
01:24:19.215 --> 01:24:32.730
Why not make banks actually useful and take advantage of their vaults to store your hardware wallet? So okay. So here's the truth about bank vaults in most countries, aside from, like, Monaco and Switzerland,
1084
01:24:34.790 --> 01:24:35.530
is that
1085
01:24:35.975 --> 01:24:36.795
bank vaults,
1086
01:24:37.415 --> 01:24:39.355
like safe deposit boxes,
1087
01:24:40.215 --> 01:24:40.715
anybody
1088
01:24:41.175 --> 01:24:42.315
with a fake ID
1089
01:24:43.230 --> 01:24:50.355
or maybe a fake ID plus a bank card can get into your safe deposit box. Okay? It's really does not seem that hard.
1090
01:24:51.395 --> 01:25:00.920
And if they don't have the key, which they won't, they're just gonna, like, show the ID and whatever, and they're gonna drill it and charge them $200 for the fee of of drilling the lock.
1091
01:25:02.020 --> 01:25:09.415
And then there is the fact that, like, government can go after your safe deposit box, especially if it's tax authority. Right? They don't actually
1092
01:25:09.795 --> 01:25:10.295
tax
1093
01:25:10.755 --> 01:25:13.255
the tax people in most countries have extrajudicial
1094
01:25:13.715 --> 01:25:14.215
powers,
1095
01:25:14.515 --> 01:25:16.375
so they could go after your bank vaults.
1096
01:25:17.170 --> 01:25:20.309
So bank vaults are great if they don't have the full secret.
1097
01:25:20.610 --> 01:25:22.949
They are a fantastic place to keep,
1098
01:25:24.690 --> 01:25:25.989
encrypted bank card.
1099
01:25:29.925 --> 01:25:51.639
1100
01:25:52.100 --> 01:25:52.600
1101
01:25:55.540 --> 01:25:56.440
Next question.
1102
01:25:58.284 --> 01:25:59.344
1103
01:26:00.125 --> 01:26:06.395
or is that a freak trolling you? Oh my god. Whoever freak whichever
1104
01:26:07.250 --> 01:26:08.469
1105
01:26:08.929 --> 01:26:10.790
I will trade you for a cold card.
1106
01:26:12.770 --> 01:26:17.445
Guys, charge more than that, And Ping me on Twitter, and I'll trade you that domain.
1107
01:26:19.425 --> 01:26:24.290
1108
01:26:24.850 --> 01:26:26.070
for the first episode
1109
01:26:26.690 --> 01:26:27.990
of Citadel Dispatch.
1110
01:26:28.770 --> 01:26:34.765
Pretty hyped about releasing this. I I literally had 2 weeks left to be able to claim that,
1111
01:26:35.705 --> 01:26:38.605
this show launched in 2020, so here we go.
1112
01:26:39.225 --> 01:26:39.725
But
1113
01:26:41.320 --> 01:26:44.460
we've entered the q and a period. So if you wanna hit us with
1114
01:26:44.840 --> 01:26:45.980
your hard questions,
1115
01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:57.344
I mean, now's now's the time to hit us with these questions. Hang on. I pushed my wife. I'm gonna go get some bourbon. One second. Oh, Robert Hamilton owns that. He bought Cold Crock. Nice. So
1116
01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:06.500
Robert Robert Cronk run. Robert, you hold on to you huddle that domain. Like, you're gonna make Rodolfo pay millions of sats for that domain at some point.
1117
01:27:07.425 --> 01:27:09.605
1118
01:27:09.905 --> 01:27:12.005
per coin, you'll buy Crocs. Look.
1119
01:27:12.385 --> 01:27:19.270
1120
01:27:19.889 --> 01:27:21.270
1121
01:27:22.530 --> 01:27:27.755
1122
01:27:29.175 --> 01:27:30.335
But are they sponsor
1123
01:27:31.015 --> 01:27:31.675
on that.
1124
01:27:32.455 --> 01:27:38.659
They're also my boys. I like them a lot. Yeah. They do. So, I mean, it it's they offer a great service.
1125
01:27:39.300 --> 01:27:42.545
You know, they hold your hand, and you have to trust them with your
1126
01:27:46.225 --> 01:27:47.844
That's a similar trade off to Casa.
1127
01:27:48.545 --> 01:27:52.910
I I really like Unchained also offers you the ability to take out a loan,
1128
01:27:54.090 --> 01:27:57.310
collateralized by your Bitcoin, which I don't really love
1129
01:27:57.610 --> 01:28:04.975
at least right now for me. I guess if the price goes up, I might like it more. It's it's it's basically a tax preferred way of
1130
01:28:05.355 --> 01:28:11.449
taking money out of your Bitcoin because, in the US at least, you don't pay capital gains tax if you do it that way.
1131
01:28:11.750 --> 01:28:14.570
But if you do that, you have to make sure that you,
1132
01:28:16.205 --> 01:28:28.350
you're over collateralized because you could have a March 12th incident where the price just goes down, you know, 50, 60 percent on you. And if you're not ready for that, you're gonna lose your Bitcoin. So most of those loans,
1133
01:28:29.610 --> 01:28:34.184
1134
01:28:35.364 --> 01:28:35.864
75%,
1135
01:28:37.045 --> 01:28:38.264
and then at 80%
1136
01:28:38.645 --> 01:28:41.065
of your principal, that's when they will
1137
01:28:41.820 --> 01:28:42.880
margin call you.
1138
01:28:43.340 --> 01:28:58.870
They'll liquidate you. But the problem with March March 12th is all those notifications happened in, like, 5 minutes. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, that's that's ultimately, that's the problem that I have with a lot of these loan companies is that they need to to, to create what I call balls
1139
01:28:59.330 --> 01:29:20.780
and then, and then sort of figure out how to create a buffer to deal with that problem. Right? Because it shouldn't be a customer problem. Like, nobody can send you a transaction in 5 minutes because But it I mean it may be in the shitter. The thing is the thing is is, like, when you deal with mortgages with houses, like, the housing market doesn't fall apart in a period of 45 minutes. But the thing is So
1140
01:29:21.255 --> 01:29:25.755
1141
01:29:27.015 --> 01:29:29.675
to delineate between the two products. They have their handheld
1142
01:29:30.130 --> 01:29:33.670
multisig service, where they are a cosigner. They have one key for you.
1143
01:29:34.530 --> 01:29:44.114
You are trusting them with your privacy. And then they have the second service, which is this loan product, which the loan product is absolutely best in class. It's the only product
1144
01:29:44.655 --> 01:29:48.355
that lets you actually know your coins aren't being re lent out.
1145
01:29:48.790 --> 01:29:50.330
You can see them on chain,
1146
01:29:50.790 --> 01:29:59.835
and you're not only trusting Unchained with it. They have a third party that held holds the 3rd key. So Unchained has a key, 3rd party has a key, and you have a key.
1147
01:30:00.535 --> 01:30:06.795
So so in a situation where they have to take your collateral from you, they're gonna go to that 3rd party legally,
1148
01:30:07.190 --> 01:30:12.570
and they're gonna petition them to get access to your coins, which is not the case with their competitors.
1149
01:30:13.590 --> 01:30:20.645
So if you are gonna go for a loan product, there there's no better option. And if you're gonna go for a hosted multisig because you want your handheld,
1150
01:30:21.185 --> 01:30:26.850
I I think they're a very good option. But you are trusting them with your privacy, and it's important to realize that trade off.
1151
01:30:31.010 --> 01:30:35.575
Rodolfo, what do you think about Shamir's secrets? Why why don't we have that on cold card yet?
1152
01:30:36.055 --> 01:30:38.075
1153
01:30:40.695 --> 01:30:44.235
1154
01:30:45.080 --> 01:30:47.340
1155
01:30:47.720 --> 01:30:48.940
Like so
1156
01:30:49.640 --> 01:30:54.540
see, with Shamir, like, Shamir is great, and and we, you know, we wanna add it. Not not
1157
01:30:54.905 --> 01:30:57.965
not the slip Shamir because that's extra
1158
01:30:58.745 --> 01:30:59.245
complicated
1159
01:30:59.705 --> 01:31:04.620
for no reason. So if I if we were to implement Shamir, we would
1160
01:31:05.080 --> 01:31:07.500
have 3 shares, so 3 SD cards
1161
01:31:07.960 --> 01:31:09.260
that would be interchangeable
1162
01:31:09.719 --> 01:31:10.219
ideally
1163
01:31:10.600 --> 01:31:11.420
in implementation
1164
01:31:11.800 --> 01:31:16.364
where the order doesn't matter. So if you have 2, you're good. Right?
1165
01:31:18.425 --> 01:31:21.804
But but, but Shamir, for the sake of Shamir,
1166
01:31:22.264 --> 01:31:23.244
just to be,
1167
01:31:24.570 --> 01:31:25.870
you know, just just
1168
01:31:26.810 --> 01:31:30.570
just to have the bullet point, we're not gonna do it. We already have, like
1169
01:31:31.155 --> 01:31:36.055
the the micro SD encryption that we have is solid. Right? Like, it's shot to 56,
1170
01:31:36.835 --> 01:31:37.335
AES
1171
01:31:38.035 --> 01:31:38.535
CTR.
1172
01:31:40.480 --> 01:31:42.100
1173
01:31:43.200 --> 01:31:50.385
1174
01:31:50.845 --> 01:31:56.065
so that there is no confusion. There's no way for you to fuck it up. It's only 12 words.
1175
01:31:57.310 --> 01:31:58.850
And you know what's funny?
1176
01:31:59.230 --> 01:32:01.890
This is this is a cool one. Somebody suggested.
1177
01:32:03.150 --> 01:32:05.890
So you can set up another cold card
1178
01:32:06.655 --> 01:32:08.594
with those 12 words as the seed,
1179
01:32:09.695 --> 01:32:10.835
as your honeypot.
1180
01:32:11.215 --> 01:32:11.715
So
1181
01:32:12.015 --> 01:32:12.594
you have
1182
01:32:12.895 --> 01:32:13.715
those seeds
1183
01:32:14.200 --> 01:32:20.540
1184
01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.900
1185
01:32:24.505 --> 01:32:33.245
1186
01:32:34.400 --> 01:32:40.260
I like that idea. I like that concept. I love that, like, in the next firmware update as if we don't have a massive list.
1187
01:32:40.615 --> 01:32:50.155
Jesus Christ, did you see the side in the next firmware? Note it. Note it, Rodolfo. I'll let I'll I'll remind you every single rabbit hole recap if we don't fucking do it. A barrier on you. Noted.
1188
01:32:52.360 --> 01:32:53.260
Fucking noted.
1189
01:32:55.160 --> 01:32:57.739
We have 6102 has 2 comments.
1190
01:32:58.535 --> 01:33:00.375
He he wants to say that,
1191
01:33:01.415 --> 01:33:03.355
he thinks even though his multisig
1192
01:33:03.655 --> 01:33:04.155
jurisdictional
1193
01:33:04.535 --> 01:33:06.075
idea is fucking genius,
1194
01:33:07.210 --> 01:33:09.230
he thinks that you should also have
1195
01:33:09.770 --> 01:33:16.110
some Bitcoin on hand that you can hand an attacker just so that they're happy and they fucking leave, and they just don't bother you anymore.
1196
01:33:16.715 --> 01:33:22.175
Yes. They they have gross money. Good advice. And then he also has a hard hitting question for you, Rodolfo.
1197
01:33:24.080 --> 01:33:24.580
No.
1198
01:33:26.240 --> 01:33:28.100
When when QR codes?
1199
01:33:28.640 --> 01:33:32.895
1200
01:33:33.535 --> 01:33:38.355
type if you type I can't remember now if it's 4 or 6 on the block explorer. 4.
1201
01:33:39.055 --> 01:33:39.555
4.
1202
01:33:40.150 --> 01:33:50.125
I don't use that feature. See, I use the feature in the cloud. Use that feature. You should verify your addresses. Dude, we have too much Why aren't you doing it? Joe fucking needs to verify. They it's this paranoia
1203
01:33:50.664 --> 01:34:05.230
stuff. Wow. Wow. You guys you guys click that out and post that to Twitter. Totally go way too far this shit. Listen, we build the features. Right? Like, you guys go way too far this shit. I just make sure I, you know, I don't go to, like, you know,
1204
01:34:05.530 --> 01:34:12.295
when when when some porn. Exe shows up on my email, I don't click on it. Right? Like, it's that simple.
1205
01:34:13.795 --> 01:34:14.295
Anyways,
1206
01:34:15.660 --> 01:34:21.280
so okay, so the maximum amount of data we can support to the current hardware on the screen,
1207
01:34:22.355 --> 01:34:23.575
okay, is an address.
1208
01:34:27.155 --> 01:34:28.775
But, but look, okay, so
1209
01:34:29.235 --> 01:34:30.610
fuck, a few things. So
1210
01:34:31.170 --> 01:34:35.590
q QR codes are fun and great. We love them. We loved them before Bitcoin,
1211
01:34:36.050 --> 01:34:37.190
okay, as a company.
1212
01:34:38.455 --> 01:34:41.835
We were doing QR codes at fucking payment terminals before
1213
01:34:42.215 --> 01:34:43.915
color screens were around Bitcoin.
1214
01:34:45.255 --> 01:34:45.755
Okay.
1215
01:34:46.120 --> 01:34:57.475
We got it. Exactly. Right? So so so the problem is two things. There's cost. K? So as the screen size increases and you don't give up security,
1216
01:34:59.535 --> 01:35:03.860
the the cost of the overall hardware is gonna increase, so that's one
1217
01:35:04.200 --> 01:35:04.700
thing.
1218
01:35:05.600 --> 01:35:11.140
So that's just for the display side. Right? And then there's the camera side. Great. More money.
1219
01:35:12.224 --> 01:35:12.844
But then
1220
01:35:13.945 --> 01:35:15.324
PSBTs are large.
1221
01:35:15.704 --> 01:35:16.204
PSBTs
1222
01:35:16.505 --> 01:35:20.045
for multi sig of complex transactions can get very large.
1223
01:35:21.070 --> 01:35:27.090
So, you know, I know that kids like to play with the animated QRs, but they have limits too,
1224
01:35:28.510 --> 01:35:30.965
and and they're not human legible.
1225
01:35:31.505 --> 01:35:34.645
I have a major problem with shit that's not human legible.
1226
01:35:35.185 --> 01:35:41.750
So do you know how you like to check your address on your cold card with the QR that you just said? That I don't even do it.
1227
01:35:43.409 --> 01:35:51.665
I I check my see, this to me is the beautiful thing of Bitcoin. It's like you read the shit on the screen and then you don't get robbed.
1228
01:35:52.045 --> 01:36:03.690
Right? But this is air gap mode, the only way to do that is if you go to address explorer. Right. That's the problem. So now if you're using the microSD, you shuffle your stuff, you check on the computer, you check on the signing
1229
01:36:04.150 --> 01:36:06.329
part, right, you should be good.
1230
01:36:07.945 --> 01:36:13.565
Now with QR's, QR's are great, are fun, are very easy, especially good for setting up wallets
1231
01:36:14.250 --> 01:36:16.110
more than they are for transactions
1232
01:36:16.810 --> 01:36:17.310
because
1233
01:36:17.930 --> 01:36:20.990
nobody should have their fucking hardware wallets in their pockets.
1234
01:36:21.625 --> 01:36:26.364
If you have your hardware wallet in your pockets, you should seriously seek some psychological help.
1235
01:36:26.824 --> 01:36:36.890
Okay? Like, don't. Just like if you have pocket money, pocket put on your phone, put it in a in a single sig hot wallet. Who cares? It's it's like it's
1236
01:36:37.215 --> 01:36:38.595
hot money. Right?
1237
01:36:40.575 --> 01:36:49.920
Hardware wallets are not a device for you to keep around. Right? They're they're not supposed to feel friendly like you should have them in your pocket or in your butt. Like, don't do it.
1238
01:36:51.760 --> 01:37:04.750
1239
01:37:06.570 --> 01:37:16.975
Seriously, it's like I I pushed back on Bitcoin fixes this meme, but Bitcoin fixes, you know, putting financial instruments in your asshole. You know, you don't have to do anything. Old card, not not about OpenDime.
1240
01:37:18.635 --> 01:37:21.690
1241
01:37:22.310 --> 01:37:23.770
1242
01:37:24.550 --> 01:37:36.195
I I I and I and I think we should seriously, like, push back on on devices and people out there who talk about, oh, this device is great. It feels great in the hand, and you wanna take this with you.
1243
01:37:36.560 --> 01:37:39.619
No. This device should be closed in some corner
1244
01:37:39.920 --> 01:37:42.739
somewhere not available to you. Right? Like
1245
01:37:43.040 --> 01:38:00.210
1246
01:38:01.105 --> 01:38:03.045
1247
01:38:03.745 --> 01:38:08.565
to make exactly. Right? That is to make, like, a proper hardware wallet
1248
01:38:08.940 --> 01:38:12.560
with QR code and camera, not, like, what's available right now.
1249
01:38:13.500 --> 01:38:21.275
1250
01:38:21.655 --> 01:38:24.475
1251
01:38:26.650 --> 01:38:29.070
you might be gaining a few points in in
1252
01:38:29.450 --> 01:38:31.870
in in UX. Right? But, like,
1253
01:38:32.410 --> 01:38:33.790
we still gonna sell
1254
01:38:34.295 --> 01:38:41.275
mark 3 or mark 4 to the reasonable people that don't want QR codes and cameras on their hardware wallets. Mhmm.
1255
01:38:41.975 --> 01:38:46.060
But I I think there is enough demand for people that wanna pay a lot more
1256
01:38:46.520 --> 01:38:49.340
and get a device that has a camera and a bigger screen.
1257
01:38:50.040 --> 01:38:53.100
I think that would be great for operational wallets
1258
01:38:53.995 --> 01:38:58.415
so that you you know, like, your your admin funds or your everyday
1259
01:38:59.035 --> 01:39:02.335
sort of need to spend from your desk kinda deal,
1260
01:39:03.420 --> 01:39:07.520
as opposed to your listen. Your holdout should not be available by a picture.
1261
01:39:08.780 --> 01:39:09.280
1262
01:39:09.900 --> 01:39:12.000
1263
01:39:12.325 --> 01:39:16.825
Like, it's insanity to me when people talk about making Bitcoin easy. No.
1264
01:39:17.445 --> 01:39:19.864
If it's your real money, don't make it easy.
1265
01:39:20.840 --> 01:39:22.219
Hard. Very hard.
1266
01:39:23.239 --> 01:39:24.940
Under a mine hard.
1267
01:39:30.344 --> 01:39:31.965
Do I need to add more adjectives?
1268
01:39:32.905 --> 01:39:36.730
1269
01:39:37.210 --> 01:39:42.590
There's a question for me from Roman. Do I still recommend Resabe, or is it currently too flawed to use?
1270
01:39:43.610 --> 01:39:45.790
I I don't recommend the coin join.
1271
01:39:46.835 --> 01:39:50.055
I I think you should either use Whirlpool or join the market,
1272
01:39:52.195 --> 01:40:00.550
but I do think it is is is useful to access your cold card. It's it's a very nice, easy way to access your cold card without your own node.
1273
01:40:01.170 --> 01:40:03.670
I do think it's preferable for you to use,
1274
01:40:04.475 --> 01:40:04.975
Specter
1275
01:40:05.435 --> 01:40:21.735
and Bitcoin Core with your cold card. I think that's the better way to do it, but then you have to use your, you you know, the Bitcoin Core is your your own node. So it it does require more bandwidth, and it does require more storage space. But, you can use it pruned, so it's like 10 gigs of storage.
1276
01:40:22.594 --> 01:40:27.335
So I don't really think it's that much of a negative. And you can find that guide at we run bitcoin.com.
1277
01:40:27.850 --> 01:40:31.550
And what's cool is if you followed my previous guide with Wasabi and Coldcard,
1278
01:40:32.090 --> 01:40:38.945
it's the same derivation paths and everything. You just follow the fucking wizard inspector, and your wallet will show up. You don't have to, like, transfer anything.
1279
01:40:39.245 --> 01:40:45.505
1280
01:40:46.270 --> 01:40:52.290
1281
01:40:53.550 --> 01:40:54.050
1282
01:40:54.405 --> 01:41:01.625
I I you know, it's kinda funny, like so the weatherman is always wrong. Right? Like, about the weather. Right?
1283
01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:11.185
So, you know, we know that. Right? I mean, you check what what's is it gonna be cold or hot today? They're always wrong. Right? So the weatherman is always wrong,
1284
01:41:12.365 --> 01:41:15.265
and the and the the weatherman works for big media.
1285
01:41:16.845 --> 01:41:17.345
So
1286
01:41:18.820 --> 01:41:23.480
I I I think there is one interesting point though is there is no harm
1287
01:41:23.940 --> 01:41:26.920
in in people having a separate computer.
1288
01:41:27.235 --> 01:41:31.655
Right? Like, you know, get yourself a cheaper laptop or your older model
1289
01:41:32.114 --> 01:41:33.315
that has a full running
1290
01:41:34.514 --> 01:41:36.390
sorry, a full node running on it.
1291
01:41:37.430 --> 01:41:43.530
It has, you know, your preferred wallet, maybe has a few other wallets that you like playing with. You know, it has proper,
1292
01:41:43.910 --> 01:41:53.065
disk encryption running on it. You know? And then it's like a laptop that you can experiment on, you you know, in terms of, like, trying to secure it further and stuff.
1293
01:41:55.139 --> 01:41:58.119
It's not you're not gonna have private keys in this computer,
1294
01:41:58.579 --> 01:42:01.880
but this is gonna be, like, a reasonably clean
1295
01:42:02.340 --> 01:42:02.840
computer
1296
01:42:03.385 --> 01:42:04.765
where you don't add your
1297
01:42:05.225 --> 01:42:06.685
Gmail shit in it,
1298
01:42:08.025 --> 01:42:10.445
and and that's where you you you do your
1299
01:42:10.750 --> 01:42:13.010
your accounting. Right? Your your Bitcoin.
1300
01:42:15.150 --> 01:42:25.695
It's it's a great way of just making sure that, you know, when you click on porn. Exe on your email, it doesn't open your Electrum and sends everything out, right?
1301
01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:29.450
It's such a, like, a a simple
1302
01:42:30.150 --> 01:42:32.250
thing to do. Just segregate
1303
01:42:32.710 --> 01:42:33.930
your your needs.
1304
01:42:35.685 --> 01:42:39.865
1305
01:42:40.245 --> 01:42:41.945
You know? But as you own more,
1306
01:42:42.400 --> 01:42:46.340
like, you should spend the extra $400 to have a
1307
01:42:46.640 --> 01:42:48.580
dedicated fucking computer for it.
1308
01:42:49.120 --> 01:42:50.020
1309
01:42:50.695 --> 01:42:55.275
no. I mean, listen. People should have a dedicated computer regardless. Right? Like, for your online banking.
1310
01:42:55.655 --> 01:43:12.945
1311
01:43:13.870 --> 01:43:19.570
1312
01:43:19.870 --> 01:43:20.930
1313
01:43:21.605 --> 01:43:24.425
1314
01:43:24.804 --> 01:43:27.545
1315
01:43:29.290 --> 01:43:29.790
1316
01:43:30.570 --> 01:43:32.030
Well, I mean, like, forever
1317
01:43:32.330 --> 01:43:33.630
ish, not.
1318
01:43:34.650 --> 01:43:40.415
Did you say that's a puppy sale? I'm tired. Oh, no. So so, like, this is the problem. Right? Like and
1319
01:43:41.675 --> 01:43:49.780
so this is a new technology. Right? Like, Bitcoin is a completely new thing. Never existed. It's it's like, sure, the, the crypto on it is old,
1320
01:43:50.239 --> 01:43:50.739
but
1321
01:43:51.440 --> 01:43:56.425
this problems have never existed before. Right? We have never had to hold
1322
01:43:56.805 --> 01:43:58.345
the money in the computer.
1323
01:43:59.125 --> 01:44:00.665
Right? Like that, just
1324
01:44:01.125 --> 01:44:02.025
mind exploding.
1325
01:44:03.690 --> 01:44:04.190
So
1326
01:44:05.450 --> 01:44:08.190
as we try to figure out how to do this right,
1327
01:44:10.410 --> 01:44:10.910
like,
1328
01:44:11.245 --> 01:44:15.425
and and as These coal mines are hard work, man. Right. Exactly. Hard work.
1329
01:44:15.725 --> 01:44:17.344
So so, like,
1330
01:44:17.645 --> 01:44:19.025
you you you have to, like,
1331
01:44:21.730 --> 01:44:25.670
you're gonna have to evolve the hardware. Right? Like, there's a reason why you don't use,
1332
01:44:26.050 --> 01:44:35.230
like, old phones and, like, you know, the the the phone you get a new phone from Apple fucking every year. Right? Sure. You don't get a lot those days, but you used to.
1333
01:44:36.350 --> 01:44:38.850
You used to get substantially new things
1334
01:44:39.230 --> 01:44:44.370
in it, and and remember, right, like, I mean, if you guys were willing to buy a $10,000
1335
01:44:44.750 --> 01:44:47.955
hardware wallet, I mean, you know, I could do magic.
1336
01:44:48.655 --> 01:44:52.034
Like, you're good for fucking 10000 years,
1337
01:44:53.650 --> 01:44:54.150
Seriously.
1338
01:44:55.330 --> 01:45:01.750
But I can't. Right? I have to sell you, like, some $100 device, so I have to work with with, like, economies
1339
01:45:02.675 --> 01:45:04.455
with, like, market economies. So
1340
01:45:05.395 --> 01:45:08.055
we're trying to figure out how to do this stuff,
1341
01:45:08.595 --> 01:45:10.055
in a way that is economical
1342
01:45:10.840 --> 01:45:12.780
and and it's as secure as possible,
1343
01:45:13.240 --> 01:45:28.420
and and if you have to spend an extra $100 every couple of years or so on a new one, well, so be it. And if you don't wanna follow along, well, too bad. So what are you saying? What are you saying? Are you saying the life span's a couple years? Is that what you're saying? No. I mean, listen. Mark one is still more secure than the Trezor
1344
01:45:30.159 --> 01:45:31.219
without the updates.
1345
01:45:32.400 --> 01:45:34.340
So it's not a simple answer.
1346
01:45:35.344 --> 01:45:35.844
1347
01:45:36.224 --> 01:45:48.440
Joe is asking us why do people keep sharing the ledger list. You have to assume the ledger list is accessed by every single person. Like, that's that's that's just the result. Once it hits the Internet, ask Barbara Streisand about it. Once it hits the Internet, it's done.
1348
01:45:48.900 --> 01:45:52.760
1349
01:45:55.285 --> 01:46:00.585
1350
01:46:01.130 --> 01:46:01.610
dot io or something.
1351
01:46:02.570 --> 01:46:04.909
1352
01:46:05.290 --> 01:46:14.824
1353
01:46:15.205 --> 01:46:16.585
Yep. It's done.
1354
01:46:17.130 --> 01:46:23.790
1355
01:46:24.695 --> 01:46:25.195
1356
01:46:25.655 --> 01:46:43.840
if if you're you get if you're able to get your hands on the list, you know, do a little pass, see if your friends, your family, anyone you might know is on there and, you know They ask Jeff in and let them know. Tell everybody you know that is not necessarily super, you know, not clicking on the button on an email kind of person,
1357
01:46:44.455 --> 01:46:46.155
1358
01:46:47.495 --> 01:47:02.620
1359
01:47:03.005 --> 01:47:04.705
1360
01:47:05.245 --> 01:47:08.945
we don't accept Yahoo emails on Kuang Kai shopping cart because
1361
01:47:10.060 --> 01:47:25.114
I may have been, like, 5, 6 years, 7 years ago when, Yahoo decided to, block our way of doing DKIM because we do it the right way, and they don't believe in our way of doing it. In an email, sir, such a pain. There's so many challenges. It it's a nightmare.
1362
01:47:25.494 --> 01:47:26.635
So email
1363
01:47:26.970 --> 01:47:31.950
was essentially all cattle into you having to pay a provider,
1364
01:47:33.210 --> 01:47:52.245
1365
01:47:52.705 --> 01:47:53.765
1366
01:47:54.225 --> 01:48:00.060
1367
01:48:01.560 --> 01:48:03.660
1368
01:48:04.600 --> 01:48:20.980
1369
01:48:21.395 --> 01:48:23.975
out of all of the one out of all the hardware wallets,
1370
01:48:24.514 --> 01:48:26.695
if you're gonna buy any from Amazon
1371
01:48:27.475 --> 01:48:27.975
Don't.
1372
01:48:28.650 --> 01:48:29.550
But you shouldn't.
1373
01:48:30.090 --> 01:48:32.910
1374
01:48:34.250 --> 01:48:42.850
okay. Because think about it this way. Amazon is selling your fucking information to everybody else. Yeah. Amazon's a marketing company. Let's be honest. Exactly. Ledger is only leaking it
1375
01:48:45.090 --> 01:48:46.230
to the whole Internet.
1376
01:48:49.010 --> 01:49:05.679
No. But seriously, like, don't. Okay? My diapers in general shouldn't use Amazon. Like, we just shouldn't be using Amazon for this. That is just to Go to your local main street Wait until you have to buy and go buy things from them. Matt, wait until you have to buy diapers. Yeah. Alex Then you're gonna be you're gonna go Amazon maximalism.
1377
01:49:05.980 --> 01:49:09.199
1378
01:49:09.825 --> 01:49:16.165
The important thing is that you price all of your diapers and sets so that it can truly destroy you in 10 years.
1379
01:49:18.039 --> 01:49:20.219
1380
01:49:22.199 --> 01:49:35.659
1381
01:49:37.260 --> 01:49:44.135
if if any if anyone has an issue where they bought a ledger or whatever, you can send me the email, and I'll look it up for you and let you know.
1382
01:49:44.435 --> 01:49:49.575
1383
01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:52.119
never, never
1384
01:49:52.659 --> 01:49:57.320
go on a website that claims to check for you and type your goddamn information.
1385
01:49:58.325 --> 01:50:07.545
1386
01:50:07.910 --> 01:50:10.090
but they they don't tell you if
1387
01:50:10.390 --> 01:50:14.410
if you're part of the email side or if you're part of the mailing address side.
1388
01:50:15.114 --> 01:50:20.655
If because I was part of the email side, and they told me I was part of the email side, but they said
1389
01:50:21.114 --> 01:50:25.099
that addresses were released or whatever. They don't they don't make it clear.
1390
01:50:26.119 --> 01:50:26.619
Gotcha.
1391
01:50:27.639 --> 01:50:28.540
So so
1392
01:50:28.920 --> 01:50:34.835
if you if you go to have I been pwned.com, it might tell you that you've your mailing address has been exposed, but 750,000
1393
01:50:35.455 --> 01:50:43.060
people, that's not the case. Somebody's asking here, Alex Cho, is BlockFi safe? No. BlockFi is not safe, Alex.
1394
01:50:43.600 --> 01:50:52.135
1395
01:50:52.835 --> 01:50:55.015
1396
01:50:55.395 --> 01:51:05.850