Nov. 22, 2022
CD80: building a bitcoin circular economy with @ziggamon
support dispatch: https://geyser.fund/project/citadel
EPISODE: 80
BLOCK: 764304
PRICE: 6196 sats per dollar
TOPICS: bitcoin payments, bitcoin the tool vs bitcoin movement, the separation of bitcoin and crypto, user experience for the silent majority
GUESTS: @ziggamon
twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@citadeldispatch
bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos
podcast: https://www.podpage.com/citadeldispatch
telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: https://matrix.to/#/#citadeldispatch:bitcoin.kyoto
05:28 - Introduction
08:45 - Supporting the show through donations and boostagrams
14:56 - Discussion on Bitrefill and its services
41:53 - The importance of knowing the argument for having things be bitcoin only
42:25 - The challenge of research and decision-making for the average person
43:13 - The large number of users and the unknown Bitcoin community
01:24:57 - The inconvenience of streaming platforms and the return to BitTorrent
01:25:33 - The uncertainty of the future of streaming platforms
01:26:03 - Speculation on the potential control of Bitcoin by governments
02:06:20 - Trust model of zero confirmation transactions
02:07:32 - Miners changing transactions in a high fee environment
02:09:21 - Account-based model vs QR code payments
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/25/2024 10:13:34 PM
Duration: 8572.029
Channels: 1
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy Odell here for another Surajale Dispatch,
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the interactive show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.
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It's always a pleasure to rip these dispatches with all you freaks,
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and,
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looking forward to this one as well. As always,
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dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.
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We rely on donations
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from our audience
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in order to support the show.
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The easiest way to support the show is via podcasting 2 point o apps, such as Fountain, Breeze,
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Echo LN,
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and others. Podverse. Fm is another big one.
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You simply
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download the app, or if it's a web browser based client, go to the web,
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search Silla dispatch, press that subscribe button, choose how many sats per minute you think the show is worth,
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and those sats will get streamed directly to my node.
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Also, in podcasting 2.0,
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there is a feature called boostograms.
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Boostograms are the ability to send
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a lump sum payment of sats
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along with a message.
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Every week
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on dispatch, I read the top boostergrams
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from the previous week, but also everyone can read them as well.
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We have Eric 99
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with 50,000 sats saying stay humble and stack sats. Really great advice, Eric. Appreciate you. We have atlawbitcoin
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with 45,000
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sats saying appreciate the signal among all the noise. Have a happy Thanksgiving with family and friends.
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Very timely. Happy Thanksgiving to all the freaks from America here. We have at chadpharaoh
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with 25,000
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sats, no message. We have at vague, 25,000 sats, no message. And we have at Pablo
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f seven z with 25,000
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sats saying make hashtag reckless great again.
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So thank you, Freaks, who continue to support the show with sats.
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You guys are amazing, and I love seeing the Sats flow into the node. I also set up something new,
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over the last week,
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called geyser.fund.
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I'm gonna pull this up on the screen to the freaks who are watching.
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That's geyser.fund
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/project/citadel.
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It's an interface similar to a Kickstarter or a Patreon
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that not only lists all the podcasting 2.0
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sats that come in and the messages attached to the boostagram so you go and can see that,
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but it also allows you to contribute
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via On Chain or Lightning directly on the website. So if you're not using a Podcasting 2.0 app and you would like to support the show,
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doing doing it through this interface still goes to my own note. You can think of it similar to how I had BTCPay
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set up previously.
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Custody wise, it's exactly the same thing. It's going to my own full node. But this way, you guys are able to track how much you are supporting the show. Right now, we're at 2,200,000
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sats.
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Would love to see that number continue to go up. I do appreciate all the freaks and support, and your messages will show up there when you do it.
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I am known to be a bit of a domain huddler myself,
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so I've redirected citadel.lol
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to this website. So if you go to citadel.lol
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in your web browser,
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you can see a live update on how much funds, how many sats,
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the Freaks have supported the show. And as you can see right now on the screen, it even shows as you're streaming in the sats per minute,
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directly to my note. It's pretty pretty fucking cool, and huge shout out to the team at geyser.fund,
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for making this a possibility and offering this service
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to anyone who's trying to raise ads from people for free,
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and,
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while maintaining self custody of all their funds. Really, really cool.
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On top of all that, freaks, I know it's a bear market. If you can't support the show with stats,
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I understand.
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If
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you can still support the show by sharing it with your friends and family,
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subscribing on your favorite platforms, as always, it's available on Twitch, it's available on YouTube, it's It's available on Rumble. It's available on Bitcoin TV, and it's available in any podcasting app. Pressing subscribe, leaving a review, sharing with friends and family, these all help. And last but not least,
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joining us for these live chats. Joining us in the live chat, actually participating in the discussion, giving your questions, giving your comments, putting them in boostergrams. This is what makes this show unique. This you know, I like to think that I'm not the only host of Citadel Dispatch.
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You're all hosts of Citadel dispatch, and I I couldn't do it without you. So thank you all. Thank you all for your support.
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There's a lot of haters out there for the value for value model, and, I think we can prove them wrong.
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So, here's to you, and and let's keep pushing forward. With all that said,
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thank you for sticking with me during this preamble.
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We have a great guest
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in the house. We have Sergei from Bitrefill.
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How's it going, Sergei?
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Hey, Matt.
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Thanks so much for having me on.
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Yeah. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
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So bit brief. So let's I I think a good place to start here is,
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yes, Carlos. You are a host.
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We have ride or die free, Carlos, in the in the live chat asking if he's a host. He is a host as well, and he says he'll take one of these weeks so I can, have a week off. So we'll keep that in mind, Carlos. Thank you.
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Let let's start with Bitrefill. What is Bitrefill for, you know, the dozen of people that don't know what Bitrefill is?
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Bitrefill is, the largest thing single service for people to buy stuff with their Sats.
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And we specifically, we,
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we offer things like
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gift cards for for ecommerce and physical commerce and,
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phone refills, bill payments, things like that.
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So,
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if you wanna buy something in the real world with the stats,
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that
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you earn,
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for example, by podcasting and getting generous
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donations from from your audience. And Bitrefill is a very simple click, click,
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click, solution, to
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to achieve ecommerce,
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with this ads.
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Yeah. So, I mean, the topic of today's discussion well, overall, I I made the topic of today's discussion the main topic, building a Bitcoin circular economy. I think all these different
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smaller topics we'll be covering kind of fall into it. That's my main topic,
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everything I do.
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Yeah. I've been the past years. So And we we appreciate you for that. I mean, I've used Bitrefill many times.
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So the the main I guess,
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the majority of the volume is for gift cards through Bitrefill. Right? And Yes. And then you have phone top ups. What would you say, like, the breakdown is between, like, phone top ups and gift cards?
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Depends if you count, dollars or humans.
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If you count humans, there's a a meaningful chunk that does phone top ups with their low volume. If you count dollars, then, obviously, gift cards are,
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much bigger.
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Yeah. I've used it for both.
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So just real quick, BTC pins in a YouTube comment saying his comment got censored on the live feed. I just wanna be clear here. I do no active moderation of the chat.
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If you're commenting through YouTube or Twitch,
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their algo might
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censor you, you can always comment on the matrix chat, which the link is at siladispatch.com.
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All of the relevant links are all at siladispatch.com.
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One thing I wanna note is,
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there's a slight change
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to the matrix chat.
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We now have 2 matrix chats. We have the original matrix chat that has over a 1000 people. That is end to end encrypted.
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Matrix's encryption in rooms that size starts to get really bogged down,
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unreliable, so we also have a no encrypted
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Citadel chat, and that's the one that's being broadcast on the screen. So if you're in the existing Matrix chat listening right now wondering why you don't see it,
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I put a link in that chat as well, but it's in silodispatch.com.
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So,
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Sergei, when when we're talking about when
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when we're talking about payments,
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one of the cool things about Bitrefill
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is whenever you give presentations, I feel like you always provide us with all these awesome stats. You always provide us with all these awesome stats
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about what how people paid, what are the different payment breakdowns. You you know, you support Lightning. You support on chain Bitcoin.
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I think in in our little bubble, a lot of people think that, you know, Lightning payments are dominating right now. And in your experience, what do you see,
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about that breakdown between,
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Lightning versus on chain?
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Good question. Well, I mean, I think,
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on chain is,
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again, it depends a little bit if you count unique users or
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or dollars.
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But,
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in euros,
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on chain is like
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7, 6, 7 times bigger than lightning.
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Yeah. If you count,
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individual
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transactions or humans, then, Lightning's doing a little bit better.
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Let me see if I have that actually.
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So in sheer numbers, that's payments.
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It's lightning. But in volume, it's on chain. But No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I mean, it's still on chain. It's just, I think that's a little bit better. So if you count unique users, then lightning is maybe
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a 5th
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of, of on chain.
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Oh, shit. So, I mean, the difference is not that big. You know, people are always like, oh, you should count the small transaction, this and that. Like, it doesn't make that big of a difference. It's just easier
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for little random things
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to,
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yeah, to skew the stats.
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So it's somewhere there. Like most Bitcoin
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users, use on chain to pay to buy stuff from the trade flow. Yes.
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And then, I mean, you also support
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Shitcoins and Stablecoins.
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Is We do. Bitcoin on chain is the most?
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Bitcoin on chain is
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the biggest single
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payment method, but it's
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it's,
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just under it's around 30% of volume.
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Yeah. So it's the biggest one. Yeah. But, but it's not It's about 30%.
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Yeah. What's number 2?
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Ethereum
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on chain.
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Ethereum. But then but then it's kind of close with, Tether on Tron and Binance Pay.
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Tether on Tron is number 3. Is it a close 3rd?
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Yeah. They're all kind of 3rd close for 2nd. Let's see. Ethereum, Tether Tron, and, Binance Pay, and then we have,
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other stuff.
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Binance Pay?
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What is Binance Pay?
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It's a decentralized,
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off chain solution for people to pay within their,
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straight within their Binance account.
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So it's like PayPal?
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It's, PayPal for Binance users. Yeah.
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Yeah. So, like, what? You, like, integrate with an API or something? There's no, like, actual token involved there? Or Yeah. Yeah. There's no there's no crypto fanciness, in
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in that, but it is, people that,
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that use,
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Binance have money there. We we actually never don't see what kind of
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coins it is if they're paying with,
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which balance. It just gets converted to us. But,
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there are no receive on your end for that?
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We receive Binance USD, which we then convert as soon as possible into fiat.
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So Binance USD is a stable coin that trades on,
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what, BSC or something on one of their on their chain? I guess. Yeah. I mean, we've never actually, we have made, but, yeah, we we don't we don't support BSC currently. But, yeah, we we get that money on finance.
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We convert I mean, we, the vast majority of the money we need to send back to,
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to to buy more gift cards.
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So big Bitcoin on chain
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Bitcoin on chain is 30%,
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then Ethereum is second at what
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percentage around?
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Yeah. It's around,
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it's around 17.
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17. And and so you said,
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Tether on Tron and then this Binance Pay thing are close behind that. So they're around 17 as well. Yeah. They're around 16.
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And then where does lightning fall on that?
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This is the euros chart. So lightning lands, at around 4%.
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4%.
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Yes.
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So lightning is But if you count unique users, then it's closer to 7.
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So it's somewhere, you know, in the in the 5 area. You know, it depends on how you So would you say lightning support on bitrefill is more of a forward looking goal?
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Like, just being ready for Currently, absolutely. Yeah.
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Absolutely. I mean, it's been forward looking since always.
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I think, I mean, we started on Lightning when there was 0 users on Lightning.
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We I think
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the first purchase on Lightning was on Bitrefill,
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when,
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Alex,
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from Lightning Labs bought something on the beta private beta that we sent him and posted it on Twitter, and that was that.
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And now he's just the only person who uses Lightning on your service?
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Absolutely not. Quite a few people use Lightning.
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Just that quite a few people use other things as well.
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I'm just fucking with you. I've used Lightning on your service, so there's at least 2 of us.
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Yeah. So how do we get that number up? Why do you think that number is so low?
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It's a good question. I don't know. Did did you have the chance to to watch, I sent you a talk that I did on the Bitcoin pizza day in Prague.
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Yeah. Unfortunately, I didn't. I think,
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I mean,
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The question is sort of from,
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from the point, that that I'm approaching this,
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is,
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I mean, it's fundamentally, it's a marketing issue. Right?
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And
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or at least product market fit issue. And I think that,
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I mean, from from Bitrefa's perspective, like, our marketing is, like, finding people who have
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coins to spend. Right? So people that either
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bought the coins when they were worth less or people who are earning them in different ways in their paycheck, in their,
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in their SaaS donations, on,
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on their content,
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trading, and whatever.
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Great. And so
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the question is sort of how do we
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get,
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Lightning Sats into the hands of
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people that are are looking to, to engage? I think
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I mean, maybe I can, like, give a short summary, I guess, of of that talk. I think it's an interesting
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observation that,
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you know,
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Bitcoin is both a tool and a movement. Right?
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And it's a movement that sort of circulates around
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a tool, a thing, like Bitcoin itself. It's not a person, it's a thing. Right? And
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all of us here, like the fact that we're recording a podcast about
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Bitcoin and that there are people listening to this indicates that all of us, both you and I and and everybody who who listens,
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does this because they're part of a movement.
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Right? We want Bitcoin to succeed and that we
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spend a significant chunk of our lives,
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talking, thinking, working
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to make make that happen. Right? But there's also a lot of people that use Bitcoin as a tool.
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Right?
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So, I mean, you know, like,
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I use cars sometimes. You probably do as well.
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Right? But we wouldn't dream of, like, going to a car conference
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even though such things exist. Right? And there are, you know, disputes,
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what's the real car, and this isn't the real car, and
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the classic car maximalist, and the sports car maximalist, and blah blah blah blah blah. Like, those things exist, but we don't care. Right? Because we mostly like, we order an Uber, we go from a to b, and we're happy, and we achieved the benefit of car. Right?
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And and it's in a similar way with, with Bitcoin that,
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even though there is a very vibrant community,
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of people who are passionate
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about, about Bitcoin and wish it to succeed,
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there's a much, much, much bigger group of people that
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that use
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Bitcoin and don't particularly,
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you know,
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care about it, right, in the same way that you and I don't care about the cars that we,
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you know,
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drive around in. Right.
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And
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and those people are hard to reach. Like, they're not going to listen to this podcast. Right? Because why would they?
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Right?
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I mean, if it's just a tool like you and I again, we don't listen to
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we use a lot of stuff every day, a lot of tools, but we don't necessarily listen to podcasts about all of them. And so yeah. And and so there is this like, there is obviously this overlap. Right? I mean,
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you and I are a good example of an overlap, and this
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this podcast collects donations and sats.
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And so you actually have an income in sats, and you're, like, a a typical excellent customer of somebody that we would try to,
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try to find.
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Right. We use we use Bitcoin the tool, but we're also active in Bitcoin the movement.
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Exactly. Exactly.
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Yeah. But but so there is an overlap, of course, but there is also, like, we talked about the people that use Bitcoin as a tool, that don't particularly care so much about us as a movement.
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And there's also quite a large number of people. This was surprising to me, that are part of the movement that don't actually use Bitcoin as a tool. Yeah. Right?
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And
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lightning is a little bit
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in in that category. Right? Because, like, there's a lot of Bitcoiners that, you know, they like Bitcoin. They want it succeed. They want lightning to succeed.
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They will do what they can to help, but they just, you know, don't really have a need for it. They bought some Bitcoin. They put it in a nice secure cold storage, locked it away. They don't even have an access to it. They don't have a wallet on their phone. And Right. They don't spend. They don't they don't spend. They don't earn. They don't engage in the circular economy. They, you know, they cheerlead. They're investors. Right? Same way as customers,
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companies have investors
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that might not be customers of the company. I wouldn't even be surprised if until the last few weeks, like, the majority of the Twitter influencers didn't even self custody,
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let alone spend Bitcoin.
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Right.
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For example. But but the self custody thing is a little bit
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orthogonal, I'd I'd say, because, like, you can have
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a mobile,
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wallet that is custodial,
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right, but still engaged. Like, strike is a good example of that. Right? So, I mean, the custom I mean, it's there. It's similar somewhere,
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but but it's not like, it's important to be,
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I think,
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specific, right, to to pinpoint these things because these are
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difficult issues, and I think that this question is important.
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You know?
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Why? Because I think that,
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you know, the free the freedom money, the Internet money narrative,
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is, at, at the core of all of this. And, so there was somebody call commented that Bitcoin is a store of value. I was like, yeah. It is. But it's only a store of value
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because you can transfer it over the Internet.
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If you couldn't transfer it over the Internet, meaning transact, then it kind of wouldn't have been a store of value either. Right? And so there's been this, I think it's like leftovers from
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from 2017 in the Bitcoin community where people are like, oh, it's a sort of value. Oh, it's a medium of change.
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Like, no. It's both. You know? You can't have the one without the other, and, like, Satoshi covered all of this.
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Yeah. Right?
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I'm still sort of always
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amazed in, like, how much of the space,
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Satarshe,
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actually managed to successfully analyze,
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including actually the 0 count debate, which I guess maybe we'll get to. Yeah. But,
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you know, that,
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you you know this
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100% know this quote. Like, imagine,
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imagine a metal,
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that has no particular,
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qualities.
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It's not useful in any way except for the property that you can transfer it over the Internet. Right?
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If somehow it were to acquire value, it will be very valuable because then you could send it over the Internet, and you could buy it here, sell it there.
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Yeah. And then and then that would be great. But how will it would it acquire value in the in the first place? Well,
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because,
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of speculation. Right? Because it might make sense to get some in case it catches on. Right. People expect us to improve value. So Like, this is day 1 of Satoshi.
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He literally explains,
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the entire industry, and 10 years later, we're still sort of in in that. Like, it might make sense sense to get some case that catches on, like, people do, and then,
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suddenly they're like, oh, it's going to be the world money and everything. It's just gonna go to the moon and all of that.
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Right?
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But so, yes,
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we're zoom zooming out,
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a little bit because I get carried away.
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Yeah. So, basically, you know, we we have the people that use Bitcoin,
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and then you can imagine,
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and by use, I mean, to transact.
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Right? Obviously, howling is using as well, but that's, like,
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a different story than than what we're discussing.
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And so there's a there's a set of people that transact with Bitcoin, and there's a set of people that love
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Bitcoin. Right? And they overlap, to some extent, but there's a big group that loves Bitcoin doesn't transact, and there's a very big group that transaction Bitcoin
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that doesn't particularly
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love Bitcoin anymore than you and I love cars.
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Does that make sense?
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Yes. So
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so it's also like a bit of a question, I think, for us in the movement,
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that maybe I can even ask to you. Like, do you think I mean, we all want Bitcoin to achieve world dominance and be the money of, of the world. But is it is it required
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and desirable for that for every person in the world to sort of identify as a Bitcoiner, to listen to podcasts, go to conferences, to care so deeply about it? Like, do we think that that's
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a desirable realistic goal?
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No. I mean, we don't have Everyone uses email, but, like, no one goes to email conferences. Right.
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Which is funny by the way because I used to go to Internet conferences.
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And so, I have gone to Internet conferences. They were great. And then I went to social media conferences.
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And today that's hilarious as well. And I mean, Bitcoin conferences have forked as well. Right? I mean Right. Crypto conferences forked off, and the Bitcoin conference is splitting up as well into more and more subcategories.
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And now we're, like, in a situation where,
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there's a lot of very similar conferences and probably they're going to fork deeper because as the group,
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the the small growth the smaller subcultures emerge. Right? Right. But probably so you and I agree that, like, realistically,
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if everybody in the world is using Bitcoin,
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they're not going to be
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caring about it,
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enough to go to conferences. It's just their money and it works.
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Exactly.
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Right.
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And and and so that's, sort of,
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why I think,
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we we do a lot of,
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of
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working with,
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I mean, we work with the group that transaction Bitcoin. Right? And so we're trying to,
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to find,
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them in in all of their shapes and,
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and forms. Right? Some of them are,
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people that you and I would meet on on conferences or on Twitter. Some of them are different.
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Right, and they have different
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flows, different needs functions,
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that that Bitcoin,
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shapes,
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for them. And I'm of the view that Bitcoin is a thing. And so, you know,
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if it scratches an issue for you, that's great. I'm very happy that it does.
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Right. All this makes sense to me.
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So then
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Right. So back to, I guess, the lightning question.
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Yeah. And Right.
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Because I think as, like, Bitcoiners,
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like, partake like, I think most Bitcoiners would agree
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or maybe not. But I think I believe
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that light if if Lightning if if if a centralized Binance Pay is being used more than Lightning,
378
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then we have significantly
379
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more work to be done.
380
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Agreed.
381
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Yeah. Agreed. And and and that's,
382
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I think,
383
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where,
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that's all I mean, maybe this is sidetracked, but, like, there is definitely a dilemma in which when a
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centralized entity
386
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on an open network becomes too dominant,
387
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they actually,
388
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start creating
389
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disincentives,
390
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for integrating
391
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with the open network.
392
00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:15.730
Yeah. There's many examples in history when that happens.
393
00:26:16.190 --> 00:26:20.755
Yeah. But in any case, yes, we we definitely have, have work to do
394
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in terms of,
395
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getting lightning into,
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into the hands of,
397
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of,
398
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the people that,
399
00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:33.400
that use
400
00:26:33.780 --> 00:26:34.280
Bitcoin.
401
00:26:35.540 --> 00:26:40.440
We can do another thing that I did in that talk as well. Let me just set
402
00:26:42.885 --> 00:26:44.825
maybe you wanna play this game.
403
00:26:45.365 --> 00:26:47.465
So we have a wallet selector on Bitrefill.
404
00:26:47.765 --> 00:26:52.330
It's actually being reworked right now, so the the stats might be slightly slightly off,
405
00:26:53.110 --> 00:26:57.690
but directionally These stats are crazy. Yeah. Let's talk about this. You've seen them.
406
00:26:58.205 --> 00:27:01.424
So, I guess maybe you've heard, but, like, can you guess,
407
00:27:01.885 --> 00:27:07.379
for Bitcoin and lightning, both on chain and I have the spoilers. Let's see if I remember Yeah. Spoilers.
408
00:27:08.340 --> 00:27:09.399
It trust wallet,
409
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.799
blockchain dot info,
410
00:27:12.899 --> 00:27:13.399
and
411
00:27:14.965 --> 00:27:17.945
another garbage wallet. Did I get 2 of the 3?
412
00:27:19.044 --> 00:27:20.105
Yeah. Ish.
413
00:27:20.965 --> 00:27:23.945
Yeah. Your direction is right. Yeah. Exodus also.
414
00:27:25.190 --> 00:27:31.690
Exodus. After that, actually, comes Electrum Moon and Strike and Blue Oat as well. So, I mean, they're all Wow. Electrum's number 4?
415
00:27:33.085 --> 00:27:33.985
1, 2,
416
00:27:34.765 --> 00:27:35.424
3, 4,
417
00:27:35.725 --> 00:27:36.225
5.
418
00:27:37.005 --> 00:27:41.760
Yeah. But, yeah, Electrum is like it's been surprising me how strong it's going all these
419
00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:45.760
years. Yeah. So I always shout out to to
420
00:27:47.260 --> 00:27:49.200
to the Electrum devs. Like,
421
00:27:49.524 --> 00:27:51.705
they built a thing that stood the test of time
422
00:27:52.005 --> 00:27:54.424
and still does, and it's a great wallet.
423
00:27:55.125 --> 00:27:56.105
And, yeah.
424
00:27:56.710 --> 00:28:01.930
Which is But anyway So wait. Let's say I'm in order. What what's the order? The top 6 in order?
425
00:28:03.725 --> 00:28:09.985
Currently, it's, but, like, right now, I think we disable it on Android, so it might be a little bit off. But, generally, it's Exodus Blockchain,
426
00:28:10.605 --> 00:28:11.105
Chivo,
427
00:28:11.965 --> 00:28:12.784
Trust Wallet,
428
00:28:13.309 --> 00:28:14.210
Electro Moon.
429
00:28:15.070 --> 00:28:16.769
Oh, Chivo's up there now?
430
00:28:17.630 --> 00:28:20.370
Well, Chivo's up there for account unique users.
431
00:28:21.005 --> 00:28:26.065
And there's a lot of people in El Salvador that use Chivo and This is ranked by unique users?
432
00:28:26.684 --> 00:28:27.184
Yes.
433
00:28:27.860 --> 00:28:31.559
And it's voluntary. It's when they're doing the payment flow, it asks,
434
00:28:32.340 --> 00:28:35.460
what wallet? There is a slight, there's a slight skew here, in that,
435
00:28:37.105 --> 00:28:51.625
if you use a wallet that's always reliable and never an issue, you might actually not care to use this feature. Whereas if you have a wallet that sometimes has a little bit of bugs, then maybe use it a little bit more. But I I don't think that SKU is too significant. Probably, it was inflated a little bit.
436
00:28:52.185 --> 00:28:57.245
This is why I always love talking to you and watching presentations, because you you kinda break through, like, our little
437
00:28:57.785 --> 00:28:59.645
our little echo chamber bubble.
438
00:29:01.059 --> 00:29:05.720
And, I mean, this is a very good example. And it's important to be nuanced here as well, right, when presenting
439
00:29:06.340 --> 00:29:08.120
stats because you can always
440
00:29:10.445 --> 00:29:10.925
mislead,
441
00:29:11.245 --> 00:29:19.480
with stats and, like, you know, we can, you know, I can present stats about, like, oh, lightning is doubling every year. It's great. And then I can find, like,
442
00:29:20.260 --> 00:29:21.159
smallest number,
443
00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:28.345
that is not a lie but misleading about, oh, lightning is tiny. Right? And they could post them out, and, one will
444
00:29:28.725 --> 00:29:34.585
be super viral in the in the Bitcoin community. The other one will be very vital. The bullish world is always viral.
445
00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:56.050
Yeah. The bearish one as well. It's just in the in the in those who don't like it. Right? The the ethereans or, or the no corners and so on. But let's just unpack those for real quick. Nuance, like, gets stuck, but I kind of insist on, on Nuance because, again, like, this is an important thing that we're working on, not just the bit we feel we, but bigger we.
446
00:29:56.590 --> 00:29:58.130
And so I think it's important
447
00:29:58.625 --> 00:30:00.805
because, I mean, this like, personally,
448
00:30:01.265 --> 00:30:04.405
like, some people perceive me as, like, always being critical of Bitcoin.
449
00:30:04.945 --> 00:30:06.409
And maybe that's true,
450
00:30:06.870 --> 00:30:10.570
that I don't, you know, cheerlead to the moon so much these days.
451
00:30:11.350 --> 00:30:11.850
But
452
00:30:12.390 --> 00:30:16.215
I mean, mainly it's because like I don't feel like we're done.
453
00:30:16.755 --> 00:30:18.775
Yeah. I don't think we're anywhere near done.
454
00:30:19.155 --> 00:30:21.175
And if we're not anywhere near done,
455
00:30:21.555 --> 00:30:22.055
then
456
00:30:22.515 --> 00:30:23.335
it's important,
457
00:30:23.875 --> 00:30:24.375
that
458
00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:25.909
we talk
459
00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:31.669
straight about the things as they are so that other people can act upon good information
460
00:30:32.085 --> 00:30:34.585
and so that we can get to a better place.
461
00:30:35.125 --> 00:30:44.830
Yeah. Right. Like, my question is, like, how do we 10 exit? You know, how do a 100 exit? I know that, like, these days, there were I mean, I guess, past years, like, there was a lot of, like,
462
00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:46.110
the sound money
463
00:30:46.410 --> 00:31:00.560
maximalist. They were like, oh, you know, in in the end, all of the money divided by 21,000,000, and that's going to be we're gonna be on the moon. Right. And then they and you kind of ask, like, how are we gonna get there? And they they never know. It's like it's predetermined. Right? So we don't actually This is inevitable.
464
00:31:01.260 --> 00:31:11.885
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, in in my book, I mean, maybe this is cursing a church, but, like, I think that this on money narrative is the same as talk to flow. Right? It's this idea that, just because,
465
00:31:12.745 --> 00:31:14.125
the supply is limited,
466
00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:17.070
then that means that
467
00:31:17.530 --> 00:31:20.670
everything else is preordained and we're gonna be on
468
00:31:21.130 --> 00:31:21.870
on the moon.
469
00:31:22.545 --> 00:31:25.924
And I don't know. I don't think that's limited supply alone is
470
00:31:26.545 --> 00:31:31.845
is what's gonna get us there. I mean, there's a lot of things that have limited supply. Fucking Litecoin has limited supply.
471
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:32.700
And
472
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.300
so Well, not really.
473
00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:38.620
I don't know. I mean, I mean,
474
00:31:39.815 --> 00:31:57.965
The the the key, I mean, the key is how hard is the protocol to change. Right? Yeah. We we don't know that for Bitcoin or for the Litecoin. So I mean, it's definitely significantly easier on Litecoin. Yeah. I don't know. How I mean, I I think I agree with you. But, like, how would you prove that to me?
475
00:31:58.924 --> 00:32:00.225
Yeah. I mean, I I
476
00:32:01.164 --> 00:32:04.284
place your bets. I don't know how to prove it to you. Yeah. I would
477
00:32:05.310 --> 00:32:13.090
fair enough. I would also bet bet that, of course. I mean Yeah. You if you believe it, you can buy Litecoin, and then we can, you know, reconvene in 10 years.
478
00:32:14.815 --> 00:32:15.315
I,
479
00:32:15.934 --> 00:32:20.995
no. I think we're we're, like, we're pretty much aligned. Like, this is why I started dispatch. Like, I am
480
00:32:22.580 --> 00:32:25.480
probably one of the most bullish people on Bitcoin on the planet,
481
00:32:26.340 --> 00:32:28.520
but I got sick of the fact that,
482
00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:31.480
you know, people were just saying blind,
483
00:32:31.945 --> 00:32:38.125
bullish engagement things on podcasts and Twitter and whatnot, and that we actually need a critical lens and open discussion,
484
00:32:38.825 --> 00:32:40.525
and we need to actually make improvements
485
00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:41.779
you know,
486
00:32:42.159 --> 00:32:45.299
to how people use Bitcoin and how people interact with Bitcoin.
487
00:32:45.679 --> 00:32:51.825
And a perfect example is your list of top wallets. I mean, on those on the list of top wallets,
488
00:32:52.524 --> 00:32:57.345
you know, one of the top ones is Trust Wallet, which is which is owned and operated by Binance.
489
00:32:57.740 --> 00:33:01.920
I believe it's a closed source wallet. It not only does it not support Lightning,
490
00:33:02.780 --> 00:33:07.695
but it uses a fixed reused address for Bitcoin transactions, which is
491
00:33:10.315 --> 00:33:10.895
universally universally
492
00:33:13.560 --> 00:33:17.420
not encouraged. Like, that's horrible for privacy to use a reused address,
493
00:33:18.760 --> 00:33:28.600
just to show where their priorities are. But but here, with bitrefill stats, you can see it's one of the most used wallets in the world, even though no one on Bitcoin and Twitter would ever recommend it.
494
00:33:29.320 --> 00:33:47.870
So Yep. There's a discrepancy between the echo chamber that's on Bitcoin Twitter, like, on all these different philosophical podcasts and whatnot versus Because Bitcoin Twitter only markets to Bitcoin Twitter. Right? And there's a limited set of people. I don't know how many they are. Like, someone asked me to guess. I would guess, like, 50,000 people, I guess,
495
00:33:48.650 --> 00:33:52.350
maybe more. What do you think? Like, how big is, the Bitcoiner
496
00:33:52.810 --> 00:33:53.310
community?
497
00:33:54.730 --> 00:33:55.550
On Twitter?
498
00:33:56.735 --> 00:34:00.275
Well, Twitter conferences. I don't know. I don't know. Like, 250,000
499
00:34:01.135 --> 00:34:02.355
or something. 300,000.
500
00:34:02.735 --> 00:34:07.200
Okay. Alright. So, Bitcoin do you think self custody Bitcoin?
501
00:34:12.305 --> 00:34:14.565
That's a good question. I think quite a few actually.
502
00:34:15.825 --> 00:34:18.964
I mean, you know, Ledger sold a million in the previous previous
503
00:34:19.744 --> 00:34:21.250
We only know because of the leak.
504
00:34:23.090 --> 00:34:25.030
Well, the leak confirms their information.
505
00:34:25.330 --> 00:34:26.070
Yeah. Sure.
506
00:34:27.650 --> 00:34:30.470
So, I mean, I think quite a few, self custody.
507
00:34:30.905 --> 00:34:33.165
I mean, it's definitely over under 30,000,000?
508
00:34:37.785 --> 00:34:39.005
Under. Of course, under.
509
00:34:39.670 --> 00:34:44.010
Obviously, why would it be over? So when Michael Sailor goes out and says, like, a 120,000,000
510
00:34:44.870 --> 00:34:49.345
people people hold Bitcoin, he's he's including IOUs. Right?
511
00:34:50.365 --> 00:34:53.025
I have no idea where Michael Sellers gets this information.
512
00:34:53.405 --> 00:34:55.905
But, I mean, probably it's like a
513
00:34:56.609 --> 00:34:57.109
Coinbase's
514
00:34:57.410 --> 00:34:58.470
number of accounts,
515
00:34:58.930 --> 00:35:00.390
that's north of a 100,000,000.
516
00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:01.750
Yeah.
517
00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:06.285
So see what BTC PIN said? Bitcoin Twitter is just him and a few 1,000 feds.
518
00:35:07.645 --> 00:35:08.444
Yeah. Well,
519
00:35:08.765 --> 00:35:11.905
I guess, we don't know that either, but that doesn't matter really.
520
00:35:12.605 --> 00:35:16.060
There's I mean, if it is worthwhile, then we should expect there to be
521
00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:17.520
feds and folks.
522
00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:19.760
Also, before I forget it is.
523
00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:30.415
BTC Pins is neck deep in the Bitcoin circular economy, and he offers dispatch pins for sale. If you buy a dispatch pin from him, a portion goes to supporting the show as well. So
524
00:35:30.795 --> 00:35:31.695
check that out.
525
00:35:32.155 --> 00:35:32.895
Very nice.
526
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:34.840
Yeah. So, I mean,
527
00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:43.474
well, like So so let let me give you an example. So you brought up Trust Wallet, and and Exodus is up there as well. Exodus is also a closed source. Doesn't support lightning.
528
00:35:44.095 --> 00:35:44.894
Yeah. Yeah. It's very similar,
529
00:35:46.494 --> 00:35:49.234
in in in in the specs, let's say.
530
00:35:51.750 --> 00:35:58.170
And so and these are remember, these are people that pay with Bitcoin. Right? And this isn't people that pay us with Ethereum
531
00:35:58.549 --> 00:36:01.005
or something else. This is people who pay with Bitcoin.
532
00:36:01.385 --> 00:36:01.885
And,
533
00:36:03.305 --> 00:36:10.070
and and so then, you you know, you kind of, like, ask yourselves, like, how does Bitcoin end up in in such a wallet?
534
00:36:10.930 --> 00:36:19.255
And, I guess one simple exercise that anybody listening to this can do is to just open their phone, open the App Store or the Google Play Store or,
535
00:36:19.954 --> 00:36:21.015
whatever, Cypherpunk
536
00:36:21.635 --> 00:36:23.175
app store that you guys use,
537
00:36:24.194 --> 00:36:24.694
and
538
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:27.820
and type in the phrase Bitcoin wallets.
539
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.980
Right? I think that's the fairest
540
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:37.755
search phrase, and you can see what shows up. Right? And again, remember that somebody who uses Bitcoin as a tool,
541
00:36:39.175 --> 00:36:40.520
like, for example, like, if
542
00:36:41.160 --> 00:36:44.060
you and I want to download the BitTorrent client.
543
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.220
Okay. I I I'm not gonna speak for you. For me, I would type in BitTorrent into
544
00:36:48.895 --> 00:36:51.395
into Google, and I would get one of the clients,
545
00:36:51.775 --> 00:36:52.495
that looks,
546
00:36:52.975 --> 00:36:57.235
legit enough. And I wouldn't care much if it's the best one, if the BitTorrent
547
00:36:58.060 --> 00:36:58.560
enthusiasts
548
00:36:59.020 --> 00:37:02.800
think it's good, or if there's technical trade offs or or whatever. Right?
549
00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:12.125
Right. So there's that. Now there's also, like, if you look at some of the other payment methods that we have. So let's take one example. So Tether on Tron.
550
00:37:13.700 --> 00:37:16.099
Right. Tether on Tron has a very vibrant,
551
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.760
circular economy, especially in Latin America.
552
00:37:19.299 --> 00:37:24.085
Yeah. There's a lot of people, in countries like Argentina, some other places that,
553
00:37:24.785 --> 00:37:25.605
work online,
554
00:37:26.465 --> 00:37:27.525
deal with dollars.
555
00:37:27.985 --> 00:37:28.645
It achieves,
556
00:37:29.185 --> 00:37:31.605
dollars for them in a country where,
557
00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:33.590
the currency is not trustworthy.
558
00:37:34.609 --> 00:37:35.670
It also achieves,
559
00:37:36.450 --> 00:37:36.850
that,
560
00:37:37.330 --> 00:37:43.815
the value of, their money is not moving up and down as much as it does with, with regular BTC.
561
00:37:44.355 --> 00:37:48.295
And and the and these people are kind of willing to take the trade off of trusting,
562
00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:50.270
the Teledy company,
563
00:37:51.770 --> 00:37:51.930
with,
564
00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:55.390
with them not running away with, with their money.
565
00:37:55.825 --> 00:37:58.165
Yeah. Right? And so there there's a very vibrant
566
00:37:59.425 --> 00:38:01.285
community of people who use Teledyntron.
567
00:38:01.825 --> 00:38:03.845
Now which wallets do they use?
568
00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:05.309
Okay.
569
00:38:06.329 --> 00:38:14.265
Right? I mean, they're not gonna use blue wallet because it doesn't have Televin Tron. Right. They're not using the Or Electrum. Using blue. Yeah. So all of those wallets,
570
00:38:14.705 --> 00:38:19.105
kind of, like, and and this is a a little bit of of the problem with,
571
00:38:19.905 --> 00:38:21.685
with the the Bitcoin only
572
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:23.779
thinking is that
573
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.059
it it builds like a separate
574
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:27.940
universe
575
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.059
from,
576
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.220
yeah, from the other universe
577
00:38:32.575 --> 00:38:33.635
that is the crypto
578
00:38:34.015 --> 00:38:36.915
casino. But it's not just a casino. There is a very vibrant
579
00:38:37.375 --> 00:38:39.955
circular economy transaction usage as well. Are they using?
580
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.780
No. They would use something like, like Trust Wallet, for example.
581
00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:51.100
So Trust Wallet is dominating all the payment categories probably
582
00:38:51.464 --> 00:38:55.805
because it has such wide support. It probably also just well, it also support Binance Pay?
583
00:38:56.984 --> 00:38:59.730
Yeah. Yeah. And many of them also use Binance, but we we're getting off track
584
00:39:00.290 --> 00:39:04.550
a little bit. Okay. My point is that, like, if your first contact with cryptocurrency
585
00:39:05.090 --> 00:39:05.330
is,
586
00:39:06.210 --> 00:39:08.230
with Tether and Tron because,
587
00:39:09.435 --> 00:39:11.215
you know, some guy paid you,
588
00:39:12.315 --> 00:39:13.135
for a
589
00:39:13.435 --> 00:39:15.375
for a gig on a website,
590
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:16.900
that you did,
591
00:39:17.359 --> 00:39:18.500
and you got paid $500,
592
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:34.470
and they were like, I'll pay you in Tether and Tron. Like, okay. Whatever. I'll install the wallet for that. And then there's Bitcoin in there. And so somebody else the next day pay offers to pay them in Bitcoin. And they're like, yeah. Yeah. Sure. I have Bitcoin. No problem. You can pay me a Bitcoin. And then they have Bitcoin and Telenron in their trust wallet.
593
00:39:35.330 --> 00:39:36.390
Right. Right?
594
00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:40.550
Right. Now to convince that person that,
595
00:39:41.075 --> 00:39:44.295
yeah, okay, so you have that wallet, but there's this other wallet,
596
00:39:45.315 --> 00:39:47.255
yeah, to which you can transfer your Bitcoin,
597
00:39:47.635 --> 00:39:49.095
so that you can use lightning.
598
00:39:51.010 --> 00:39:53.589
Right? I mean, I know they're like Right. Why should I,
599
00:39:54.450 --> 00:39:59.270
do that? What is lightning? I don't know what that is. I already have a wallet that works.
600
00:40:00.035 --> 00:40:00.535
Exactly.
601
00:40:01.315 --> 00:40:02.995
Yeah. It works. You know? I can,
602
00:40:04.035 --> 00:40:06.215
I can convert it at my local,
603
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.080
I forget what they call, exchange shops,
604
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:10.980
and,
605
00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:13.060
and
606
00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:16.260
Like, those cash transfer points? Right? Mhmm.
607
00:40:16.865 --> 00:40:20.325
Where they can go between cash and and, quote, unquote, crypto.
608
00:40:21.105 --> 00:40:22.865
Yep. So and then it's,
609
00:40:24.385 --> 00:40:25.605
it it's good enough.
610
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:36.565
And and, and so these people never get exposed. I mean, they're again, they they why would they go on Twitter to read about Bitcoin or about Tether or about Tron? Like, right? I mean, it's just a thing.
611
00:40:36.945 --> 00:40:40.244
And Right. They're not gonna watch a 2 hour video on best practices.
612
00:40:40.545 --> 00:40:46.089
They're just fucking Yeah. They would that's not cool. A 100% not, and they would definitely also not, you know, watch,
613
00:40:48.230 --> 00:40:50.890
watch, yeah, like, any of this. They wanna watch this show.
614
00:40:51.385 --> 00:40:54.285
Right. So we don't and we and I think the most important thing
615
00:40:55.145 --> 00:40:55.965
is that,
616
00:40:56.985 --> 00:40:59.885
you know, we go to conferences, we meet a lot of people.
617
00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:02.520
Right? But we never meet
618
00:41:03.060 --> 00:41:05.080
those who only use it as a tool.
619
00:41:05.540 --> 00:41:16.860
And and so it becomes this big blind spot. Right? Because, like, I go to Bitcoin Amsterdam and, like, everyone's like me. That's great. So that means that the whole world is like that. Meh.
620
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:17.820
Incorrect.
621
00:41:18.680 --> 00:41:22.040
Yeah. Right? I mean, it's a little bit again, you go to a classic cars,
622
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.915
conference, and everybody's into classic cars.
623
00:41:25.935 --> 00:41:29.235
And so you should conclude that everybody in the world uses classic cars.
624
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.660
But you're not learning why the guy's driving a Toyota Camry instead.
625
00:41:35.600 --> 00:41:39.300
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, you probably wouldn't even find out,
626
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.025
that they exist.
627
00:41:43.005 --> 00:41:48.385
Right. If you went to the classic car conferences, then you would think Toyota Camry drivers weren't even a thing.
628
00:41:49.180 --> 00:41:54.480
That's what we're currently living in in the Bitcoin. Well, a little bit. I go, Jim. Because, like,
629
00:41:55.100 --> 00:41:56.240
we're we're building
630
00:41:56.780 --> 00:41:59.684
our own thing to some extent. But I think it's important,
631
00:41:59.984 --> 00:42:02.145
like, there's a very good argument for,
632
00:42:02.545 --> 00:42:04.484
for having things be bitcoin only,
633
00:42:04.865 --> 00:42:07.770
for having them, you know, have a small fraction of the volume
634
00:42:08.150 --> 00:42:08.650
of,
635
00:42:10.870 --> 00:42:12.810
of what they could have been if they supported
636
00:42:14.230 --> 00:42:15.770
other coins and so on.
637
00:42:16.505 --> 00:42:20.285
And one can make that argument, but but at least you need to know.
638
00:42:20.664 --> 00:42:21.164
Right?
639
00:42:21.944 --> 00:42:25.270
And, I mean, and it's not just about crypto.
640
00:42:25.730 --> 00:42:27.910
Like, I mean, like, your average,
641
00:42:28.530 --> 00:42:29.030
El
642
00:42:30.050 --> 00:42:30.550
Salvadoran,
643
00:42:32.194 --> 00:42:32.694
who
644
00:42:33.234 --> 00:42:39.095
got a remittance in their Chivo wallet. Like, are they gonna go necessarily do research on,
645
00:42:39.450 --> 00:42:45.630
you know, which Bitcoin wallet should I use, or are they gonna go to the ATM and cash it out for, for dollar bills?
646
00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:48.030
Right.
647
00:42:48.795 --> 00:42:54.734
Right. And and and so, I mean, this is one issue, that I think, like, it's just important to be,
648
00:42:55.194 --> 00:42:55.934
I think,
649
00:42:56.234 --> 00:43:00.470
mindful of. Right? I mean, again, like Coinbase has a 100 +1000000,
650
00:43:01.410 --> 00:43:03.190
KYC verified users.
651
00:43:04.210 --> 00:43:05.375
Like, who are they?
652
00:43:06.495 --> 00:43:09.475
Yeah. Even if we take your estimate that there's 250,000,
653
00:43:10.255 --> 00:43:12.115
of us in the in the Bitcoin community.
654
00:43:13.190 --> 00:43:16.089
Okay. And then we're still short, you know, 109,750,000.
655
00:43:17.990 --> 00:43:19.210
Who are they? Where are they?
656
00:43:19.725 --> 00:43:23.345
We never see them. Right. Right? And and there's also people that that
657
00:43:23.805 --> 00:43:24.445
that huddle,
658
00:43:24.765 --> 00:43:28.225
as a tool. Right? There's a lot of people that just huddle some Bitcoin,
659
00:43:29.130 --> 00:43:31.310
and they don't, you know, follow Twitter.
660
00:43:31.690 --> 00:43:34.190
They maybe at most know somebody who does,
661
00:43:34.890 --> 00:43:37.310
but, or they just bought it on their,
662
00:43:38.555 --> 00:43:39.295
you know,
663
00:43:40.154 --> 00:43:42.414
Charles Schwab account or or whatever,
664
00:43:43.355 --> 00:43:47.214
and they have a number in their stock portfolio that says b to c. And,
665
00:43:47.770 --> 00:43:48.170
you know
666
00:43:48.890 --> 00:43:54.670
So I did I did what you said, and I and I've already I've I've talked about this exercise
667
00:43:54.970 --> 00:43:55.870
multiple times,
668
00:43:56.250 --> 00:44:01.934
both on on the show and on on Twitter. But I searched Bitcoin wallet in in the Play Store,
669
00:44:02.635 --> 00:44:03.934
the Google Play Store,
670
00:44:04.315 --> 00:44:06.984
and the top one is how gonna be different. Doug.
671
00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:09.040
Is gonna be different for different people.
672
00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:11.120
Right. The top one is,
673
00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:17.815
yeah. This is like but I will also say that this Google account that's attached to this Play Store thing is
674
00:44:18.755 --> 00:44:25.900
is pretty much devoid of information as far as as Google goes. Yeah. But then they should have a blank newbie
675
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:26.780
perspective
676
00:44:27.080 --> 00:44:29.580
in the US. They know that you're in the US probably.
677
00:44:30.520 --> 00:44:31.980
They think I'm in Canada.
678
00:44:32.875 --> 00:44:33.375
Okay.
679
00:44:33.755 --> 00:44:35.135
Okay. So crypto.com
680
00:44:35.435 --> 00:44:39.375
is the top one. Bitcoin wallet, I don't even know who makes this
681
00:44:39.859 --> 00:44:46.440
by Bitcoin Wallet. It's probably the Shieldbox Wallet. Yeah. It looks like the Shieldback Wallet. That's still pretty high up there. Then then bitcoin.com's
682
00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.160
wallet, then Coinsquare, then Coinbase,
683
00:44:49.465 --> 00:44:51.565
2 times Coinbase, then Trust Wallet,
684
00:44:52.025 --> 00:44:54.925
then Wallace Crypto Wallet, never heard of it, Exodus,
685
00:44:55.225 --> 00:44:56.365
Blockchain dotcom,
686
00:44:57.369 --> 00:44:57.869
Innovin
687
00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:02.109
Solutions, Bitcoin Wallet, then Metamask, which doesn't even support Bitcoin,
688
00:45:02.650 --> 00:45:05.630
then Binance, then Crypto dotcom again, BitPay,
689
00:45:06.214 --> 00:45:06.714
Luno,
690
00:45:07.095 --> 00:45:08.234
Revolut, Robinhood,
691
00:45:09.175 --> 00:45:10.795
Owner, and then BlueWallet.
692
00:45:11.095 --> 00:45:16.540
It's like the first wallet I would recommend out of all of those. Well, the Shellback Wallet is also good. But
693
00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:22.220
Also doesn't support lightning, though, but yeah. I guess BlueRock kinda doesn't either.
694
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:24.540
But my my
695
00:45:25.974 --> 00:45:37.770
my point here is that, you know, users are going to, you know, pick 1 of the top 10 that that appeals to them. And, you know, we we can have a conspiracy perspective that, like, Google is corrupted by the shit corners blah blah. But, like, realistically,
696
00:45:38.070 --> 00:45:39.050
there's an AI.
697
00:45:39.510 --> 00:45:45.005
It it checks, you know, for each search phrase, what people click on, and then it just shows people that based on that and
698
00:45:45.484 --> 00:45:50.224
what they installed and so on. And so I don't think that it's, I mean, once Not a conspiracy.
699
00:45:51.085 --> 00:45:55.339
I don't think so. I think it just shows people what what they think that people,
700
00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:57.099
what people want.
701
00:45:59.799 --> 00:46:02.140
So do you think part of the issue is that,
702
00:46:02.974 --> 00:46:14.180
I mean, like, Trust Wallet obviously supports, like, every shitcoin under the sun, but they don't support lightning. Part of the issue is that it's just it's hard to develop a mobile Lightning wallet. It's, like, hard to integrate
703
00:46:14.640 --> 00:46:18.055
Lightning into Yeah. Well, but, also, Trust Wallet gets paid,
704
00:46:18.695 --> 00:46:24.215
they earn money for people converting from 1 shit coin to another, and Lightning doesn't have a shit coin. So,
705
00:46:24.660 --> 00:46:27.240
it doesn't add another trading pair for them.
706
00:46:28.660 --> 00:46:37.925
I actually have to think that if Lightning did, have a shitcoin, this is another cursing in church, but, I think if lightning did have a shitcoin, it it would have been bigger than this today.
707
00:46:40.065 --> 00:46:43.860
I mean, then it would just be a shitcoin, and we have those already.
708
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:44.820
Yep.
709
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:48.020
So I'm not saying that we should do that, but,
710
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:52.904
I think, like, and so So what do you think about stable coins on lightning?
711
00:46:54.484 --> 00:46:56.984
It's a good question. It's a very good question.
712
00:46:58.600 --> 00:46:59.260
I mean,
713
00:46:59.720 --> 00:47:01.340
from the perspective of lightning,
714
00:47:02.120 --> 00:47:03.100
I'm very bullish,
715
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:04.460
obviously.
716
00:47:05.615 --> 00:47:07.555
Yeah. From the I don't know if that's obvious.
717
00:47:07.935 --> 00:47:08.435
Continue.
718
00:47:10.095 --> 00:47:11.474
Yeah. Fair enough.
719
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:22.734
No. I I mean, I I think it's, it's good. I mean, we already see that many things in the lightning space, that have stable USD value, like Strike, like Bitcoin Beach,
720
00:47:23.674 --> 00:47:24.494
and some other,
721
00:47:25.595 --> 00:47:27.535
are popular. Right? I mean, there is
722
00:47:29.250 --> 00:47:31.510
a demand for people to to
723
00:47:31.810 --> 00:47:32.630
have their
724
00:47:33.570 --> 00:47:34.070
money
725
00:47:34.370 --> 00:47:41.635
not fluctuate up and down. And that demand, again, for many people, not for everybody, but for many, is is greater than,
726
00:47:42.335 --> 00:47:44.755
the demand for, you know, self custody.
727
00:47:45.455 --> 00:47:54.165
I am a cypherpunk. Nobody can control me. I do what I want. Right? That's a trade off, and and some people choose the former trade off.
728
00:47:55.365 --> 00:47:55.685
And,
729
00:47:56.405 --> 00:48:03.385
so, yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it depends what it looks like, you know, how it works. You know, there's a lot of different,
730
00:48:05.020 --> 00:48:06.720
schemes and ideas
731
00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:08.880
for how to implement
732
00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:11.920
tokens on lightning.
733
00:48:12.725 --> 00:48:14.505
But but also, I mean
734
00:48:15.925 --> 00:48:17.545
and and that's kind of, like,
735
00:48:18.005 --> 00:48:19.385
a big question as well,
736
00:48:20.245 --> 00:48:21.720
which is, like, okay, but
737
00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:23.180
imagine somebody
738
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.500
we're still gonna have a similar problem. Right? Because
739
00:48:28.815 --> 00:48:30.035
some dude receives,
740
00:48:30.495 --> 00:48:30.995
$500
741
00:48:32.335 --> 00:48:34.595
in Tether on lightning, let's say.
742
00:48:35.055 --> 00:48:36.870
And he wants to pay another dude,
743
00:48:37.430 --> 00:48:43.290
$500 in Tether, but that dude only has a Tron wallet. Right? So we still kind of have this
744
00:48:45.380 --> 00:48:45.880
somewhat
745
00:48:47.175 --> 00:48:47.675
strange
746
00:48:48.694 --> 00:48:49.194
gap
747
00:48:49.895 --> 00:48:50.395
here.
748
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:52.619
Personally
749
00:48:54.200 --> 00:48:57.980
and that's the thing is that, again, like, it's a big question.
750
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.265
Like, there's people now talking about how
751
00:49:01.744 --> 00:49:03.204
Bitcoin isn't crypto.
752
00:49:03.744 --> 00:49:08.244
Yeah. Right? Bitcoin is something separate. Like, I mean, that's very obviously not true.
753
00:49:09.330 --> 00:49:12.070
But the question is maybe is it desirable
754
00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:13.990
for Bitcoin to be
755
00:49:14.850 --> 00:49:17.190
something other something entirely separate
756
00:49:17.845 --> 00:49:18.665
from crypto.
757
00:49:18.965 --> 00:49:24.585
Right? I mean, there's a lot of things in the crypto space that, you know, we don't have to go into that, that are
758
00:49:25.045 --> 00:49:26.345
not great, let's say.
759
00:49:27.080 --> 00:49:30.860
And so having a Bitcoin economy that's separate from that
760
00:49:31.240 --> 00:49:32.140
is great in
761
00:49:32.600 --> 00:49:36.724
in in a lot of ways. I mean, we can all feel feel good about ourselves.
762
00:49:37.265 --> 00:49:44.244
Yeah. But that means that a lot of people will still be in the in the crypto circular economy. Right?
763
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:54.385
And and we have to observe another thing is that all stable coins, all major ones, at least to my knowledge, are issued by some kind of crypto exchange.
764
00:49:56.045 --> 00:49:56.545
Right?
765
00:49:57.005 --> 00:50:02.430
So stablecoins are Right. Very like They have some kind of trusted custodian that is,
766
00:50:03.309 --> 00:50:04.690
Yeah. Holding Donald Trump
767
00:50:04.990 --> 00:50:05.569
or whatever.
768
00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:08.930
It it it comes from that side of the pond.
769
00:50:09.790 --> 00:50:12.369
It's for them, by them. Right?
770
00:50:14.175 --> 00:50:16.435
So stable like we're not going to,
771
00:50:18.575 --> 00:50:20.355
you know, if there is a divorce
772
00:50:20.980 --> 00:50:21.480
between
773
00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:23.319
Bitcoin and crypto,
774
00:50:23.619 --> 00:50:27.160
like, I mean, we're not gonna have sole custody over of stable coins.
775
00:50:28.255 --> 00:50:30.994
That's for sure. And so then the question becomes,
776
00:50:32.175 --> 00:50:36.355
still, like, okay, there will be probably a circular economy
777
00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:38.760
among Stablecoins. There already is
778
00:50:39.620 --> 00:50:41.080
a very vibrant one.
779
00:50:42.660 --> 00:50:43.640
What do we do?
780
00:50:45.785 --> 00:50:47.485
Also, Stablecoins have,
781
00:50:48.505 --> 00:50:52.125
have speculation and gambling and DeFi and all of these things that
782
00:50:52.550 --> 00:50:53.990
even though you and I agree,
783
00:50:54.310 --> 00:50:55.369
they're not not,
784
00:50:55.670 --> 00:50:58.490
something we would Well, I think everyone's always gonna gamble.
785
00:50:59.270 --> 00:51:01.849
Yeah. Exactly. People Yeah. Humans like gambling.
786
00:51:02.955 --> 00:51:06.655
Exactly. And so then we have, like, a gambling free
787
00:51:06.955 --> 00:51:07.455
ecosystem.
788
00:51:08.955 --> 00:51:14.260
Like, I think, like, I've been thinking quite a bit about this because, like, in a lot of ways,
789
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:15.680
like
790
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:22.045
so things change in in our industry. Right? And, you know, a lot of things have changed since
791
00:51:22.825 --> 00:51:23.325
2017
792
00:51:23.705 --> 00:51:25.805
or or whatever, like, pivotal moments.
793
00:51:27.190 --> 00:51:29.609
And sometimes, like, stable coins, for example,
794
00:51:30.390 --> 00:51:32.650
came after that, at least in a big way.
795
00:51:34.744 --> 00:51:36.285
And it's important to,
796
00:51:36.825 --> 00:51:37.885
you know, update
797
00:51:39.464 --> 00:51:39.964
your
798
00:51:40.424 --> 00:51:41.790
understanding of the world
799
00:51:42.750 --> 00:51:44.210
as as the
800
00:51:44.590 --> 00:51:45.490
facts change.
801
00:51:45.950 --> 00:51:49.090
Back in the day, it was the case that Bitcoin was the base currency
802
00:51:49.390 --> 00:51:50.690
for the shitcoin economy.
803
00:51:51.235 --> 00:51:51.735
Right?
804
00:51:52.195 --> 00:51:59.975
Bitcoin was the onramp. You had to acquire Bitcoin on a coin based type thing, and then you would transfer that Bitcoin to
805
00:52:02.050 --> 00:52:04.950
what were the Bitcoin exchanges back then? I forget.
806
00:52:07.464 --> 00:52:08.744
Whatever. Right? To to,
807
00:52:09.305 --> 00:52:10.685
buy now. E or
808
00:52:12.345 --> 00:52:18.490
crypsy. Yeah. I was thinking of crypsy. I was thinking of yeah. Crypsy. Yeah. Right. So you would buy They all got rogue. Based Poloniex.
809
00:52:19.190 --> 00:52:23.210
Yeah. I I okay. Yeah. I didn't. But, well, anyway,
810
00:52:25.245 --> 00:52:31.830
so the the case then was you buy Bitcoin, you transfer to cryptocurrency, you you you trade in shitcoins, you withdraw to Bitcoin, and then you have Bitcoin. Right?
811
00:52:32.470 --> 00:52:36.490
And then if you're you're looking to buy something with your Bitcoin, you buy something with your Bitcoin.
812
00:52:38.150 --> 00:52:40.330
Like, also, like, when shitcoins are dumping,
813
00:52:40.805 --> 00:52:45.945
you would see, flight to safety and people are like, shit shit. These coins, they're they're they're not good anymore.
814
00:52:46.965 --> 00:52:50.890
I'm gonna go out and fly to safety. I'm gonna go to Bitcoin. Today,
815
00:52:51.829 --> 00:52:52.329
to
816
00:52:53.109 --> 00:52:55.690
to a very large like, to a bigger and bigger extent,
817
00:52:56.549 --> 00:52:59.985
that is shifting from, from Bitcoin to stable coins.
818
00:53:00.385 --> 00:53:01.765
Right? And so
819
00:53:02.145 --> 00:53:02.645
people
820
00:53:03.265 --> 00:53:08.005
buy so today that equivalent flow is that you buy, you know, you get Stablecoins,
821
00:53:08.809 --> 00:53:10.109
You you put them in your MetaMask,
822
00:53:10.970 --> 00:53:17.549
either your DeFi stuff. And if you want to fly to safety, you you go into a stable coin and and and that's that.
823
00:53:18.125 --> 00:53:19.265
Yeah. Right? So,
824
00:53:20.445 --> 00:53:25.825
and I think in part, this is why, you know, like, try like, if you look at payments per day on Bitcoin,
825
00:53:26.200 --> 00:53:33.820
they're going up, but they're not going back going up that steeply. Right? And so I think what we're seeing is that, like, okay, that kind of speculative
826
00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:35.820
usage is actually shifting
827
00:53:36.795 --> 00:53:42.815
to things like stable coins, but there is also, of course, growth in in everything Bitcoin. And so,
828
00:53:44.235 --> 00:53:46.720
in the end, the chart is, like, you know,
829
00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:48.160
pointing upwards slightly.
830
00:53:49.820 --> 00:53:59.025
It used to be that Bitcoin was unequivocally the so called, like, reserve currency of the space. Like, all the Bitcoin trading pair every every trading pair was in Bitcoin.
831
00:54:00.045 --> 00:54:02.625
Exactly. And then, like, basically, Tether changed the game.
832
00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:09.240
Mhmm. Yeah. And now it's, like, the biggest volume on Binance and whatnot. It's usually in Tether or BUSD
833
00:54:09.540 --> 00:54:11.965
or whatever. Yep. Exactly. So,
834
00:54:12.525 --> 00:54:16.945
it used to be the medium exchange, the units of account, and the store value of the shit economy.
835
00:54:18.020 --> 00:54:31.885
And today Like, people talk about, like, Sats being the standard. Like, the shitcoin traders made Sats the standard first. It was like you would I remember, like, even in, like, 20 16, 2015, you would go on, like, a shitcoin exchange, and they all the prices were listed in Sats.
836
00:54:32.745 --> 00:54:33.245
Right.
837
00:54:34.265 --> 00:54:34.765
So
838
00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:40.319
and so that's kind of the question. Right? I mean, people are always going to gamble,
839
00:54:40.859 --> 00:54:42.240
you said, and
840
00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:47.615
and then okay. And so Bitcoin doesn't allow that because we think it's bad,
841
00:54:48.795 --> 00:54:50.015
and for good reasons.
842
00:54:51.355 --> 00:54:51.855
But,
843
00:54:52.715 --> 00:54:54.335
you know, here we are. Like,
844
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.619
it's it's just a Do you think part of do you think part of that is just because, like,
845
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:04.905
regulators move slow and we're kind of just, like, in this weird period in between where
846
00:55:05.205 --> 00:55:11.065
where these centralized stable coins are widespread, but regulators haven't cracked down on them. I mean, the reason Bitcoin exists
847
00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:19.210
is because of the assumption that the state will stop this type of activity from happening. We saw it happen with Liberty Reserve. We saw it happen with so many other
848
00:55:19.705 --> 00:55:23.085
entities that were not, you know, necessarily compliant with US law.
849
00:55:23.465 --> 00:55:28.250
Bitcoin was designed to be robust against that. These these stable coins are not by any means. I mean,
850
00:55:29.290 --> 00:55:31.950
the the people behind Tether deserve props. They've been
851
00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:33.550
essentially, you know,
852
00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:38.765
evading the US for such a long time, but, you gotta imagine that eventually,
853
00:55:39.545 --> 00:55:41.565
like, time is ticking there. No?
854
00:55:42.185 --> 00:55:42.685
Maybe.
855
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:44.580
I don't know.
856
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.380
You know, I don't have any
857
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:48.260
any
858
00:55:48.560 --> 00:55:55.835
special opinions. There's definitely a scenario for that. But I would say strong believer that I'm a strong believer that, like, Bitcoin is a tool
859
00:55:56.615 --> 00:56:08.060
that is available to us all and provides value to us all as a tool of last resort. It's a tool that is always there for you when you need it. But if there's a more convenient option for people, they're gonna always take the more convenient option.
860
00:56:08.375 --> 00:56:09.415
Yeah. But what if
861
00:56:10.775 --> 00:56:12.475
I'm a 100% agree.
862
00:56:13.015 --> 00:56:13.755
What if
863
00:56:15.560 --> 00:56:22.300
I mean, I I think it's safe to say, as you described, the stablecoins were not allowed, in a world where there was no Bitcoin.
864
00:56:22.994 --> 00:56:25.414
And I would say that Bitcoin shields the stablecoins
865
00:56:26.035 --> 00:56:26.535
Yeah.
866
00:56:27.394 --> 00:56:30.055
By its by the mere fact that Bitcoin exists.
867
00:56:31.430 --> 00:56:36.570
And and so the the question is, you know, if regulators want to shut down stable coins,
868
00:56:37.430 --> 00:56:39.690
and drive those users to Bitcoin,
869
00:56:40.385 --> 00:56:47.925
which is less controlled and and chaotic. Or if they're like, you know what? Stablecoins are the slightly less evil that live and be.
870
00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:51.580
I don't know. But that's been the attitude for the past,
871
00:56:52.040 --> 00:56:54.380
I don't know, 3, 4 years. Right? So
872
00:56:54.680 --> 00:56:55.900
maybe it's gonna change.
873
00:56:56.385 --> 00:57:00.244
And if it does, I mean, then then I think everything we discuss here is going to,
874
00:57:01.425 --> 00:57:04.085
change in a in a in a very big and
875
00:57:04.865 --> 00:57:07.750
dramatic way. But we don't know. Well, so, like Right?
876
00:57:08.450 --> 00:57:09.830
So, like, I was talking,
877
00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:12.790
I mean, I remember when Tether launched,
878
00:57:13.490 --> 00:57:15.670
and it was called the Real Coin.
879
00:57:16.755 --> 00:57:18.214
And I was like, oh, man.
880
00:57:18.674 --> 00:57:25.750
Those guys are gonna gonna get in jail so fast. Like, that was my first, first thought. Right. And, like, yeah, I thought joke
881
00:57:26.230 --> 00:57:36.664
It's the joke you see on Twitter now where it's, like, about Tether truthers. Right? That Tether is gonna blow up, and it's just like every other thing is blowing up behind them, but they're just, like, stared in at Tether.
882
00:57:37.605 --> 00:57:42.424
Sure. But that's something else. I mean, that's the speculation of whether or not it's unbacked. Right? But there's
883
00:57:42.910 --> 00:57:47.810
still regardless of that, the scenario where the government say says, like, this is now illegal
884
00:57:48.110 --> 00:57:53.275
and you have to stop. And this So the the reason I bring this up is because,
885
00:57:53.815 --> 00:57:57.675
I was talking to Dario of, Moon Wallet, and he's Argentinian.
886
00:58:00.310 --> 00:58:04.170
And so, like, they like, people in Argentina love stablecoins.
887
00:58:06.395 --> 00:58:17.940
He knows a lot of just average people that got absolutely wrecked on the Luna collapse. On the on the Terra, they had that stablecoin that was backed by Luna, which is a shitcoin, and the whole thing just
888
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:23.940
collapsed earlier this year. And a lot of people got wrecked on that, and a lot of those people
889
00:58:24.944 --> 00:58:32.405
did not move to a new stable coin. They learned their lesson on that, that it was centralized and now use Bitcoin.
890
00:58:32.970 --> 00:58:36.109
And I wonder if just a lot of this just kind of
891
00:58:36.650 --> 00:58:41.070
like, people will just get burned and then realize the unique value prop of Bitcoin.
892
00:58:41.765 --> 00:58:42.265
Maybe.
893
00:58:43.125 --> 00:58:44.965
But, I mean, you you just,
894
00:58:45.365 --> 00:58:47.705
a minute ago talked about Tether Trooders,
895
00:58:48.244 --> 00:58:50.585
being in the wrong for many years about Tether.
896
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:57.520
Oh, yeah. I've been wrong about many things. I also said that No. I mean might never clear again, and they just keep clearing. So Yeah.
897
00:58:57.900 --> 00:59:01.315
We can talk about that as well if you want. But, I mean,
898
00:59:01.615 --> 00:59:10.420
my point is that there there are stable coins that are obviously scams, and there are stable coins that are not obviously scams. They might still go away for whatever reason. Right.
899
00:59:11.200 --> 00:59:16.315
But we don't know. And but it, like I mean, it's kind of I think it's it's it's important
900
00:59:16.615 --> 00:59:16.695
when, like,
901
00:59:18.135 --> 00:59:30.390
you know, thinking about the divorce of Bitcoin and crypto. It's like, yeah, who's gonna get the kids? Like, who's gonna get the stable coins? And how? And, like, how do we do we want to have stable coins, and if so, to what extent? And then,
902
00:59:31.255 --> 00:59:35.515
so, then we're gonna be forced to figure out how do we interoperate with the other stablecoins.
903
00:59:36.134 --> 00:59:40.970
Well then, so I wanna go back to where this originally started, which was this idea of stablecoins
904
00:59:41.270 --> 00:59:41.930
on Lightning.
905
00:59:42.950 --> 00:59:45.370
I think the reason Lightning adoption
906
00:59:45.750 --> 00:59:47.690
is as low as it is
907
00:59:48.070 --> 00:59:49.530
is because of,
908
00:59:50.935 --> 00:59:58.315
we take cert everything has trade offs, and we take certain trade offs with Lightning to make sure that it maintains relatively the censorship
909
00:59:58.710 --> 01:00:02.009
resistant properties of Bitcoin that you can settle on chain on Bitcoin.
910
01:00:02.950 --> 01:00:04.890
And as a result, you have
911
01:00:05.670 --> 01:00:07.185
all these complex concepts
912
01:00:07.485 --> 01:00:11.585
that are hard to design around you x wise with liquidity and channel management
913
01:00:12.205 --> 01:00:14.065
and having your note always on.
914
01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:17.950
And as a result, it's really hard to develop for. It's it's more
915
01:00:18.250 --> 01:00:19.550
it's it's less convenient
916
01:00:20.090 --> 01:00:25.975
for the end user to use. The UX is is always a step behind, you know, these these centralized shitcoins.
917
01:00:26.675 --> 01:00:31.655
So to me, like, stablecoins on lightning are this massive distraction because even if we technically,
918
01:00:32.450 --> 01:00:36.150
you know, even if RGB or Taro or whatever it is,
919
01:00:36.450 --> 01:00:39.910
like, is technically able to implement stable coins on lightning,
920
01:00:40.265 --> 01:00:50.660
I have a feeling I'm gonna bring you back on dispatch or I'm gonna go see you present in Riga or something, and you're gonna be like, well, remember how I said that lightning's 4% of transactions?
921
01:00:51.200 --> 01:00:55.295
Well, stable coins on lightning is is a half a percent of transactions,
922
01:01:03.330 --> 01:01:05.990
you make a clear and argument for that.
923
01:01:07.410 --> 01:01:09.190
But then, that leaves us
924
01:01:10.530 --> 01:01:12.790
sort of back to square 1, which is that
925
01:01:13.115 --> 01:01:13.935
how do,
926
01:01:14.635 --> 01:01:16.095
how does the Bitcoin space
927
01:01:18.555 --> 01:01:21.695
relate to stable coins being popular in other chains.
928
01:01:22.289 --> 01:01:24.470
Well, I think we just we just
929
01:01:25.089 --> 01:01:28.150
like, the goal should be to make interacting with Bitcoin
930
01:01:28.529 --> 01:01:31.105
as as, you know, easy and
931
01:01:31.505 --> 01:01:35.365
interacting with Bitcoin in a sovereign way as easy, as convenient as possible,
932
01:01:36.785 --> 01:01:38.005
and just understand
933
01:01:38.305 --> 01:01:39.285
that centralized
934
01:01:40.690 --> 01:01:45.330
tokens will always have additional convenience because of the way trade off balances work. And
935
01:01:46.530 --> 01:01:48.710
Yeah. If centralized, it's always going to be more convenient.
936
01:01:49.155 --> 01:02:00.670
Right. And if Bitcoin is actually necessary, which I believe it is, which is, this robust censorship resistant money that's independent of corporations and governments, then ultimately over time, it will prove itself out.
937
01:02:02.089 --> 01:02:07.724
Yeah. I agree with that. And, I would sort of like to continue on that. Like, this is why,
938
01:02:08.585 --> 01:02:09.085
it's
939
01:02:10.184 --> 01:02:10.765
it's crucial,
940
01:02:11.625 --> 01:02:12.125
that
941
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:16.980
Bitcoin does not become this thing that is entirely dependent
942
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:19.620
on, on centralized regulated exchanges.
943
01:02:20.515 --> 01:02:23.815
Right. And the only the only way to achieve that is,
944
01:02:25.075 --> 01:02:29.895
again, the circular economy. Like, people getting paid, people paying, peer to peer trading,
945
01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:33.560
something as simple as use of wallets.
946
01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:39.755
Right? We need people to use wallets. Yeah. We we need people to to to have a wallet on their phone
947
01:02:40.394 --> 01:02:43.694
and that they have some coins in in case they wanna buy something.
948
01:02:44.555 --> 01:02:45.375
And we
949
01:02:46.154 --> 01:02:48.170
and I I don't believe
950
01:02:48.550 --> 01:02:49.690
in, in
951
01:02:50.070 --> 01:02:58.075
in, you know, like, guilting or moralizing or you should. Otherwise, you're not a good Bitcoiner and, like, that stuff. Like, no. Like, we
952
01:02:58.775 --> 01:03:02.235
we we we should make things that people want to use because they want to use them.
953
01:03:03.815 --> 01:03:05.950
Because we're not going to successfully moralize
954
01:03:06.410 --> 01:03:07.210
millions of,
955
01:03:07.690 --> 01:03:10.030
or even billions of people in the world
956
01:03:10.570 --> 01:03:11.790
into using this stuff.
957
01:03:13.035 --> 01:03:13.535
So
958
01:03:13.835 --> 01:03:15.615
we we need to make all of these things,
959
01:03:16.714 --> 01:03:18.635
bigger and more popular, you know, like,
960
01:03:19.835 --> 01:03:22.415
your basks and things like that.
961
01:03:23.740 --> 01:03:25.120
Because that's I mean,
962
01:03:25.580 --> 01:03:30.995
again, like, different people come to Bitcoin for different visions, but, like, I I came for freedom money and Internet money.
963
01:03:31.555 --> 01:03:36.855
And that's what I'm Right. Passionate about. And I don't think that you can even have
964
01:03:37.235 --> 01:03:40.200
some money without freedom money. Like, I don't think that,
965
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:52.085
a Bitcoin that is, I think Saylor made this argument sometime back that, like, let them regulate it into oblivion, and then the the institution else will come and the price will go to the moon, and then there will be hyperbitcoinization.
966
01:03:52.625 --> 01:03:55.525
And then every other problem will magically fix themselves.
967
01:03:55.825 --> 01:03:58.085
I got into this area, and it was safe as well.
968
01:03:59.390 --> 01:04:03.569
Yeah. I mean, so the way I look at it, and I wonder if you agree, is is
969
01:04:03.869 --> 01:04:09.725
is I came out of firm an argument of why people should care about financial privacy. And I said,
970
01:04:10.425 --> 01:04:11.405
without privacy,
971
01:04:12.585 --> 01:04:20.660
which is not anonymity. Privacy is is the ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world. Without privacy, you cannot have freedom, because if you don't have privacy,
972
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:22.500
then someone can use
973
01:04:22.905 --> 01:04:26.205
your information against you to to take away your freedom.
974
01:04:26.505 --> 01:04:29.565
And then without freedom, you can't ever be wealthy.
975
01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:39.460
Because if if you don't have freedom, then it's not really your wealth. They can just take away your wealth. So you need privacy to have freedom, and you need freedom to be wealthy. So the whole thing is all interconnected.
976
01:04:40.225 --> 01:04:40.725
Yep.
977
01:04:41.185 --> 01:04:42.725
Which is which is why
978
01:04:43.025 --> 01:04:44.885
you in particular are such an important,
979
01:04:45.345 --> 01:04:48.005
voice, in in the Bitcoin space,
980
01:04:48.359 --> 01:04:50.140
because you always talk about this stuff.
981
01:04:50.680 --> 01:04:51.160
And,
982
01:04:51.640 --> 01:04:52.780
you can't have,
983
01:04:53.560 --> 01:04:55.099
again, like, you can't have,
984
01:04:55.640 --> 01:04:56.140
like,
985
01:04:56.520 --> 01:04:59.355
I mean, privacy, if we talk about that, like,
986
01:04:59.734 --> 01:05:02.315
people who care about privacy are people who make transactions.
987
01:05:03.255 --> 01:05:05.355
Right? And people who don't make transactions,
988
01:05:05.815 --> 01:05:06.940
do not particularly
989
01:05:07.640 --> 01:05:08.780
care about privacy.
990
01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:12.620
And there's 2 kinds of privacy. Right? There is the
991
01:05:13.160 --> 01:05:15.340
coin join type privacy
992
01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:17.964
of on chain. And then there is
993
01:05:18.744 --> 01:05:21.484
the privacy aspect that, you know, there are ways,
994
01:05:21.944 --> 01:05:23.005
for me to,
995
01:05:23.545 --> 01:05:24.960
to do things with my Bitcoin
996
01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:26.480
that don't require
997
01:05:26.780 --> 01:05:27.280
full,
998
01:05:28.620 --> 01:05:29.120
full
999
01:05:29.740 --> 01:05:43.585
account verification and all of that. Right. KYC. Which is not That's one of the things I love about Bitrefill is that I can just buy these gift cards without Yeah. Well, we without KYC. We we try. You know? We we we we try to to enable as much as we can, with as much privacy as,
1000
01:05:44.190 --> 01:05:46.850
we can. But that's a, you know, constant battle.
1001
01:05:51.070 --> 01:05:59.585
But, yeah, I mean, that's the stuff that's important. And, I mean, it it can't just be the refill. Right? I mean, if it is, then we're just gonna get shut down. Like, there needs to be
1002
01:06:00.180 --> 01:06:10.395
a very big and vibrant economy. And so the question is, how do we, how do we get it to grow? I mean, this is in part, like, why I'm sharing all of our data and so on that, you know,
1003
01:06:10.935 --> 01:06:15.915
someone would say, oh, that's trade secrets. You know? But, like, yeah. But I I wish there were,
1004
01:06:16.535 --> 01:06:17.035
more
1005
01:06:17.510 --> 01:06:34.675
competitors, but I also wish that there were a lot more and bigger and better complimentary services out there. Right? I I want But otherwise, you get crushed. Otherwise, you're just a centralized actor that can get crushed. Yeah. And otherwise, this is completely uninteresting, like, frankly. Like like I said in the beginning, like, I'm not done.
1006
01:06:35.530 --> 01:06:40.089
Yeah. I don't think we're done, the Bitcoiners. And and so I don't,
1007
01:06:40.970 --> 01:06:42.030
you know, I don't
1008
01:06:43.185 --> 01:06:45.685
like the thought leaders that say that it's all preordained,
1009
01:06:46.465 --> 01:06:46.965
and
1010
01:06:47.905 --> 01:06:51.045
we don't need to do anything. We can just sit and Huddl, and
1011
01:06:51.859 --> 01:07:03.345
one day, everything's gonna be great. And there's One of the reasons I love this space one of the reasons I always loved Bitcoin is that the the strongest Bitcoin critics are always Bitcoiners,
1012
01:07:03.965 --> 01:07:07.585
and I think that's still the case, but it used to be a higher percentage.
1013
01:07:08.090 --> 01:07:11.950
Now it's now the the percentage is skewed. The absolute number
1014
01:07:12.250 --> 01:07:21.635
is is still higher of Bitcoiners that are internally critical and want want to seek improvement and are talking about the hard things. But percentage wise,
1015
01:07:22.415 --> 01:07:26.195
particularly if you start to talk about platforms, like, the people that have the largest audiences.
1016
01:07:26.640 --> 01:07:32.180
Yep. Are and I I talk about this a lot. I mean, at the end of the day, this is a movement of personal responsibility.
1017
01:07:33.200 --> 01:07:33.700
And
1018
01:07:34.575 --> 01:07:46.640
people are groomed not to practice personal responsibility in their day to day lives. Like, people have everything taken care of for them by society all the time. Sure. So as a result, like, the influence influencers
1019
01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:47.440
who
1020
01:07:47.980 --> 01:07:51.440
who who tell people that they don't have to take personal responsibility
1021
01:07:52.299 --> 01:07:52.799
naturally
1022
01:07:53.725 --> 01:08:01.680
get better engagement. They perform better because that's what people wanna hear. People wanna hear something easy. They don't wanna hear a hard path. They don't wanna hear any kind of
1023
01:08:02.319 --> 01:08:03.940
nuance or anything like that.
1024
01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:04.880
Yep.
1025
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:08.740
And the the easiest thing is you're you're all gonna be rich.
1026
01:08:09.355 --> 01:08:10.575
Yeah. And,
1027
01:08:11.035 --> 01:08:17.435
and it's gonna go up forever. Yeah. And, there is no number 2, and, all of these things. It's just,
1028
01:08:18.570 --> 01:08:20.330
just punch Well, I do think on Sailor. But
1029
01:08:21.290 --> 01:08:25.150
gonna go up I think so. I think so as well. But as you said,
1030
01:08:26.175 --> 01:08:29.474
I mean, it clearly you know, like, let's say when he gets liquidated.
1031
01:08:30.974 --> 01:08:31.474
But,
1032
01:08:32.415 --> 01:08:45.995
I mean Well, he broke rule number 1, which is don't fuck around with leverage, but that's a whole different thing. Exactly. Exactly. And and I used to that's the thing. It it is that, again, like, when people say that, you know, Bitcoin is separate from crypto.
1033
01:08:47.195 --> 01:08:49.195
Yeah. Well, okay. Well, our biggest,
1034
01:08:50.315 --> 01:08:53.615
influencer is, like, massively leveraged, on Bitcoin
1035
01:08:54.470 --> 01:08:59.690
and encourages people to leverage their house and and so on. Like, you know, I mean, there are a lot of
1036
01:08:59.990 --> 01:09:04.375
values that overlap. Let me let me tell you, Anik, that, actually, I was Let me.
1037
01:09:04.855 --> 01:09:10.795
So the 1st Bitcoin conference that I attended, in my life, was a Bitcoin conference in Amsterdam in 2014.
1038
01:09:11.390 --> 01:09:11.890
And
1039
01:09:13.070 --> 01:09:19.490
recently, I I I don't know. I was feeling nostalgic, and so I I looked I found,
1040
01:09:20.430 --> 01:09:29.235
the event page somewhere. I don't know if it's still I couldn't find it later, but I'm sure it's in the Internet archive. I think it's up because someone showed it to me when I was in Amsterdam.
1041
01:09:29.550 --> 01:09:36.130
Yeah. Yeah. And so if you look at it, and you look at the people, and, like, some of them we don't know anymore, but, like, a lot of them,
1042
01:09:36.670 --> 01:09:42.095
I would say a vast majority of them are people who today we would call the crypto industry.
1043
01:09:42.875 --> 01:09:43.835
Right. Right?
1044
01:09:44.315 --> 01:09:47.135
So a lot of them are people that then became the shitcoiners.
1045
01:09:47.650 --> 01:09:58.344
Yeah. And it kind of evolved. Right? I mean, the crypto came out of, of Bitcoin. Like, we we birthed it. And not just we, like our, at the time, top influencers,
1046
01:09:59.685 --> 01:10:15.824
built it. Right? And then again, like, as we already said, like, as subcult as subcultures grow, then they form sub subcultures, and it keeps going like that. And Yeah. I mean, like, you talked about, like, Bitcoin not Bitcoin's not crypto. Like, maybe it just shows my age,
1047
01:10:16.925 --> 01:10:24.430
but, like, I actually think that, like, crypto doesn't exist. Like, they're it's all part of the Bitcoin industry. Like, I think Bitcoin is
1048
01:10:25.710 --> 01:10:29.730
is is, you know, in a in a weird roundabout way, like,
1049
01:10:30.350 --> 01:10:32.210
Ethereum is like a Bitcoin app.
1050
01:10:34.094 --> 01:10:53.395
Yeah. But but you know what? I think I used to underbelly of the Bitcoin industry, basically. Yes. I I so I used to have that perspective as well. Yeah. Exactly what you say. And, the way that I I would verify it is to do a Google Trends and just see how much are people searching for Bitcoin and how much they're searching for crypto.
1051
01:10:54.094 --> 01:10:57.474
And it's still the case that, you know, Bitcoin is bigger than crypto.
1052
01:10:58.660 --> 01:10:59.640
At the same time,
1053
01:11:00.180 --> 01:11:01.240
again, like,
1054
01:11:02.340 --> 01:11:08.335
like, the world changes. And so now we're seeing that, you know, the crypto industry again is, like,
1055
01:11:08.795 --> 01:11:09.775
sort of replacing
1056
01:11:10.235 --> 01:11:13.775
Bitcoin as store value minimum exchange, as the money, basically,
1057
01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:19.270
of the industry and replacing it with with stable coins and to to a lesser extent, it's
1058
01:11:20.150 --> 01:11:20.650
and,
1059
01:11:21.350 --> 01:11:24.574
and and we see results of that. Like, I mean, the biggest
1060
01:11:24.954 --> 01:11:27.454
biggest wallet in the world is MetaMask,
1061
01:11:28.074 --> 01:11:30.335
and MetaMask does not support Bitcoin.
1062
01:11:30.870 --> 01:11:31.590
Right? So,
1063
01:11:31.989 --> 01:11:50.034
and and that's, like, a very clear sign of the divorce coming from the other side. Right? That's like, you know, we built this thing and, like, we didn't even bother to add Bitcoin because it's, you know, it's not Trust wallet doesn't support lightning and MetaMask. Yeah. You know. Doesn't support big conspiracy. It's just it's just not a priority.
1064
01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:58.980
Yeah. Right? Again, like, it's not like the these people are like, oh, we hate Bitcoin. We want it to disappear or anything like that. Like, the shit corners love Bitcoin.
1065
01:11:59.395 --> 01:12:01.735
It's just, you know, it's not been a
1066
01:12:02.435 --> 01:12:10.500
priority for them. They have the product road map and the things that give them their their business goals that they're trying to achieve, and so they haven't gotten to that yet.
1067
01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:14.340
But it but it shows that, that industry is now rebasing
1068
01:12:15.665 --> 01:12:17.204
gradually, but more and more,
1069
01:12:17.744 --> 01:12:18.804
off from,
1070
01:12:19.425 --> 01:12:21.045
from Bitcoin and onto,
1071
01:12:21.585 --> 01:12:23.125
stable coins on,
1072
01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:25.340
on EVM based chains,
1073
01:12:25.640 --> 01:12:26.140
basically.
1074
01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:27.340
Yeah.
1075
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:29.100
And and so
1076
01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:33.675
at some point, maybe it's no longer the case that crypto is,
1077
01:12:34.295 --> 01:12:37.195
the underbelly of the Bitcoin industry and that it becomes
1078
01:12:37.574 --> 01:12:39.835
somewhat I mean, it's it's messy. Right?
1079
01:12:40.770 --> 01:12:43.510
Is is crypto part of it? I don't know. Maybe.
1080
01:12:46.050 --> 01:12:57.965
It's tricky. Well, I think I think the reason people say it is because it there's an important message there, right, which is Bitcoin is distinctly different than everything else in the quote, unquote industry.
1081
01:12:58.440 --> 01:13:02.300
Yeah. And maybe that's enough. The question is how do you convey that message?
1082
01:13:04.360 --> 01:13:05.980
Just like that. I think,
1083
01:13:08.625 --> 01:13:10.025
I mean, I think,
1084
01:13:11.365 --> 01:13:16.825
I mean, all of us do. Right? If a friend asks, like, hey. Which crypto should I buy? And I get by Bitcoin, and
1085
01:13:17.750 --> 01:13:18.730
and that's enough.
1086
01:13:20.870 --> 01:13:22.890
But, again, like, you know, like,
1087
01:13:23.910 --> 01:13:25.130
you know, like, they
1088
01:13:26.155 --> 01:13:28.255
they are, to some extent, moving on.
1089
01:13:29.195 --> 01:13:35.120
Yeah. They they they move to another town. Yeah. Right? I mean, they they don't, they use Bitcoin less.
1090
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:44.660
They use other things instead. Yeah. They still use Bitcoin to some extent, but less. But so Yeah. Like, I'm gonna pull up a chart on the screen for, like, the people that are watching.
1091
01:13:45.575 --> 01:13:51.195
This chart, right, where when you when you say the word crypto over and over again,
1092
01:13:51.975 --> 01:13:53.275
like, the left side
1093
01:13:53.630 --> 01:14:00.530
is what you believe, which is that there's this massive crypto industry where, like, Bitcoin is a small part of that industry,
1094
01:14:01.035 --> 01:14:06.815
when the reality is that that, you know, there's Bitcoin and then there's everything else
1095
01:14:07.275 --> 01:14:07.775
that's
1096
01:14:08.270 --> 01:14:17.205
doing trying to accomplish completely different goals that is ripe with Ponzi schemes, that's ripe with scams, that's ripe with, you know, poor trade offs that aren't disclosed
1097
01:14:17.585 --> 01:14:18.245
to users.
1098
01:14:19.825 --> 01:14:24.225
Like, what do you think when you see this chart? Do would you be Well, it contradicts what you just said,
1099
01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:33.925
and, I would say that, you know, the reality Well, I would just put the little crypto circle. I'll put the little crypto circle, like, inside of the Bitcoin circle, if I was gonna
1100
01:14:34.305 --> 01:14:47.060
change. I would maybe make it, like, on the edge so it overlaps to a significant extent with the Bitcoin circle. Like, I would also make the and I would make the crypto circle significantly bigger, still smaller than Bitcoin, but significantly bigger than in this chart.
1101
01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:50.340
I think another data point, I guess that
1102
01:14:50.685 --> 01:14:52.945
made me think about these things. So
1103
01:14:53.324 --> 01:14:57.505
if we zoom out, like, I mean, I think as late as 3 years ago,
1104
01:14:58.170 --> 01:14:58.670
if
1105
01:14:59.610 --> 01:15:01.150
you ask me, like, you know,
1106
01:15:01.770 --> 01:15:09.005
which coins do people use to pay on the trade flow, Then I would be like, ah, it's 90% Bitcoin and 10% everything else.
1107
01:15:09.465 --> 01:15:13.565
Yeah. Right? So, I mean, this isn't 2017. This is, like, 2019,
1108
01:15:14.185 --> 01:15:16.990
or so. So up until very recently,
1109
01:15:17.770 --> 01:15:19.610
it was the case, that,
1110
01:15:20.410 --> 01:15:21.550
you you know, this was correlated
1111
01:15:22.170 --> 01:15:29.275
well with Google Trends. And so, yeah, Bitcoin is much bigger than crypto. Whereas today today, you know, crypto is, like,
1112
01:15:29.815 --> 01:15:30.795
60, 65%
1113
01:15:33.280 --> 01:15:39.219
of it, which also, like, I think it's coincidental, but, like, it overlaps somewhat with the Bitcoin dominance,
1114
01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:52.340
charts, which we know are inflated and and and bullshit and so on. But even though bullshit, Bitcoin's still, like, 50% on that or 60% on that. No? No. No. No. It's 40 something. Yeah. Okay.
1115
01:15:52.719 --> 01:15:53.219
So,
1116
01:15:53.840 --> 01:15:59.139
and what's interesting, I think, in in this day and age, with the fall of,
1117
01:15:59.600 --> 01:16:05.075
FDX and, and Terra and all these things is that it's not going up. It used to be,
1118
01:16:05.715 --> 01:16:09.015
the case that in a bear market, Bitcoin dominance goes up.
1119
01:16:09.590 --> 01:16:11.290
We might be calling that early.
1120
01:16:12.630 --> 01:16:17.530
I mean Like, what about 6 months from now? Like, have we seen the full fallout yet?
1121
01:16:18.855 --> 01:16:21.255
No. But, I mean, we've seen quite a bit of fallout,
1122
01:16:21.655 --> 01:16:23.835
and the Like, is this not the great shitcoinapocalypse,
1123
01:16:24.454 --> 01:16:24.954
Sergei?
1124
01:16:27.360 --> 01:16:29.699
Good question. I think it might be, but
1125
01:16:30.639 --> 01:16:31.380
but still,
1126
01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:32.659
you know,
1127
01:16:33.175 --> 01:16:38.955
now there here's an here's another, I guess, mental model and I'm actually interested in in your thoughts.
1128
01:16:40.135 --> 01:17:16.180
So when when arguing values, right, values in themselves are are usually not interesting. They're only interesting when you put them against each other. Right? So do you want freedom and prosperity? Yes. Yeah. But if you can only have 1, right, if you have to choose, like, 1 unit of freedom or 1 unit of prosperity, then it becomes a values question. Right? And, in the in the Bitcoin space, we we have the value that we want Bitcoin up. Right? Whatever up means. More users, higher price, whatever. Right? We also want shitcoins we want shitcoins down. Right? And let's say you get this. Right? We want both these things.
1129
01:17:16.740 --> 01:17:18.840
But but an interesting question is,
1130
01:17:19.300 --> 01:17:24.600
okay, but what if we put them against each other? Because there are situations in which we have to choose.
1131
01:17:25.175 --> 01:17:27.915
Do we want Bitcoin up but also should go on up?
1132
01:17:28.454 --> 01:17:31.675
Or do we want should go down but also Bitcoin down?
1133
01:17:33.230 --> 01:17:36.770
Right. And there's some that would say Which which which would you choose?
1134
01:17:37.310 --> 01:17:38.690
I would choose up up.
1135
01:17:39.405 --> 01:17:42.705
I would also choose up up. Yeah. But I think that,
1136
01:17:44.125 --> 01:17:47.185
yeah, many people on Bitcoin Twitter would probably choose down down.
1137
01:17:48.040 --> 01:17:51.340
Well, it seems to so, at least The lab ones.
1138
01:17:52.280 --> 01:17:54.460
Given how people are sort of cheering,
1139
01:17:55.000 --> 01:17:56.380
the the shit coin apocalypse,
1140
01:17:56.715 --> 01:18:01.455
And, I mean, it is fun. Yeah. But at the same time, it's clearly causing Bitcoin down.
1141
01:18:02.075 --> 01:18:02.575
Right?
1142
01:18:03.275 --> 01:18:04.600
At least in the short term.
1143
01:18:05.560 --> 01:18:06.060
And,
1144
01:18:07.480 --> 01:18:10.920
and so and and that's sort of, also, like, in a
1145
01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:19.645
I think, sort of important to to ask, you know, in in your heart of hearts. Like, I don't even know to be honest, like, I mean, I I have this,
1146
01:18:20.525 --> 01:18:21.265
an artistic
1147
01:18:21.739 --> 01:18:22.239
pyromaniac
1148
01:18:22.620 --> 01:18:26.560
thing where, like, stuff's burning. It's interesting even if it's my house.
1149
01:18:27.020 --> 01:18:40.010
Yeah. Like, I mean, like, watching FDX and all of that stuff. No. We we all like chaos. We all if you've been in Bitcoin for a long enough time, you're a little bit of a massive I think so. I think we're I think we're chaotic good,
1150
01:18:40.409 --> 01:18:40.909
as,
1151
01:18:41.929 --> 01:18:42.750
as characters.
1152
01:18:44.250 --> 01:18:44.750
So,
1153
01:18:46.785 --> 01:18:50.385
I don't even know. It's just like a I guess something to,
1154
01:18:50.785 --> 01:18:54.145
to reflect on on on where Well, the way I look at it land and
1155
01:18:55.060 --> 01:19:02.360
The way I look at it is in a post in in a in a world where Bitcoin is is succeeding, where adoption is increasing,
1156
01:19:03.324 --> 01:19:04.784
Bitcoin brings in
1157
01:19:05.324 --> 01:19:05.824
global
1158
01:19:06.125 --> 01:19:06.625
permissionless
1159
01:19:07.005 --> 01:19:07.505
finance.
1160
01:19:08.445 --> 01:19:13.307
It's the base of this global permissionless finance world. And as a result,
1161
01:19:13.881 --> 01:19:21.010
people love gambling. People love printing their own money. So if Bitcoin succeeds, shitcoins will always exist.
1162
01:19:22.114 --> 01:19:25.895
I think so too. In my mind because you can't stop someone from doing it.
1163
01:19:26.275 --> 01:19:26.775
Yeah.
1164
01:19:27.315 --> 01:19:28.275
Exactly. I mean,
1165
01:19:29.315 --> 01:19:29.815
and,
1166
01:19:31.610 --> 01:19:35.070
yeah. Like, I mean, if you look at, for example,
1167
01:19:36.490 --> 01:19:39.870
other examples when people suddenly got financial freedom,
1168
01:19:40.575 --> 01:19:43.955
in in the history of the world, like, for example, the collapse of the Soviet Union.
1169
01:19:44.655 --> 01:19:47.235
What's the first thing that they do with their financial freedom?
1170
01:19:48.030 --> 01:19:49.090
MLM Screens.
1171
01:19:49.710 --> 01:19:58.414
Scam and be scammed. Right? And and we've seen this over we've seen this in the Bitcoin space as well. Like, there was a massive boom in Bolivia, like, 5 years ago,
1172
01:19:58.795 --> 01:20:16.425
where suddenly, like, all metric, like, Bolivia, Bolivia, what the hell is going on in Bolivia? They're like, oh, okay. There's a massive Ponzi scheme that's Yeah. Like, plus the word Bitcoin. Big one lately. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean so, I mean, people do that and the I don't know. I mean, I think that for me, I have sort of
1173
01:20:16.885 --> 01:20:19.065
come to terms with that
1174
01:20:19.550 --> 01:20:21.570
the good that Bitcoin brings
1175
01:20:21.950 --> 01:20:22.450
outweighs
1176
01:20:23.150 --> 01:20:25.010
the bad that it also brings.
1177
01:20:25.470 --> 01:20:26.530
And that maybe
1178
01:20:27.225 --> 01:20:29.725
the world just needs to develop,
1179
01:20:31.945 --> 01:20:33.565
like, a intuitive understanding
1180
01:20:33.945 --> 01:20:35.005
that, you know,
1181
01:20:35.385 --> 01:20:37.150
if it's too good to be true
1182
01:20:37.770 --> 01:20:38.590
type reasoning
1183
01:20:38.890 --> 01:20:44.190
or, you know, where I guess recently we've learned where there's a reward, there is risk.
1184
01:20:44.915 --> 01:20:46.434
Right. It's it's a it's a big,
1185
01:20:47.074 --> 01:20:47.574
recent,
1186
01:20:47.954 --> 01:20:50.454
learning for a lot of people, and that maybe eventually,
1187
01:20:51.235 --> 01:20:52.695
we we get to,
1188
01:20:55.970 --> 01:20:58.150
we we get to a point where these things
1189
01:20:58.530 --> 01:21:06.855
stabilize. But, yeah, I mean, we we are going to have shit coins. At the very least, you know, the the shit coins that are just stocks. Right? Yeah. Those that,
1190
01:21:07.574 --> 01:21:09.175
that really only scam,
1191
01:21:10.050 --> 01:21:12.230
the the American SSE or similar
1192
01:21:12.610 --> 01:21:13.110
regulators,
1193
01:21:14.130 --> 01:21:14.870
with their,
1194
01:21:15.570 --> 01:21:16.790
unregistered securities.
1195
01:21:17.485 --> 01:21:22.225
But other than that, conduct business in a in in a in an ethical,
1196
01:21:22.765 --> 01:21:26.065
way without lying misleading. Like, you can imagine that.
1197
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:31.300
And, I think that that's part of Bitcoin vision to some extent. So,
1198
01:21:32.160 --> 01:21:33.485
that too, by the way.
1199
01:21:34.284 --> 01:21:36.385
That means that we're going to have tokens.
1200
01:21:37.725 --> 01:21:44.840
Yeah. Right? And so that may how are they going be transferred? Are they going to be transferred over Lightning, or are they going to be transferred,
1201
01:21:45.300 --> 01:21:45.800
over,
1202
01:21:46.820 --> 01:21:51.535
600 different EVM chains or something else that we don't know yet.
1203
01:21:51.955 --> 01:21:54.215
How is Bitcoin going to interact with that?
1204
01:21:55.955 --> 01:21:56.455
Right.
1205
01:21:58.820 --> 01:22:04.760
I mean, I think, like I mean, so there's another popular I think every good meme is based in reality,
1206
01:22:05.825 --> 01:22:08.085
and that's why they're viral in the first place.
1207
01:22:08.385 --> 01:22:11.365
And, you know, a big a big meme or
1208
01:22:11.825 --> 01:22:16.010
culture point in Bitcoin is this idea of low time preference, long term thinking.
1209
01:22:16.710 --> 01:22:19.850
And, you know, a lot of the trade offs that Bitcoin has made
1210
01:22:21.855 --> 01:22:32.970
through its short history has been with a long term lens on. You know, you never really know how much censorship resistance is enough censorship resistance until your chain is completely captured and done.
1211
01:22:33.830 --> 01:22:44.975
So so Bitcoin has kind of gone to the extreme on that, which I appreciate, and I think it makes it, you know, very robust. And the government is trolling us by not going after the less centralized ones.
1212
01:22:45.435 --> 01:22:48.094
Wait. So that's the question. Right? So the question is, like,
1213
01:22:48.940 --> 01:22:50.719
there there's a scenario where
1214
01:22:51.260 --> 01:22:56.639
where we're wrong and or maybe just the fact that Bitcoin exists means that
1215
01:22:57.205 --> 01:22:59.145
centralized, less censorship resistant
1216
01:22:59.445 --> 01:23:01.145
things are able to survive.
1217
01:23:01.925 --> 01:23:06.940
But, I mean, the big elephant in the room is is pretty much Ethereum. And I do wonder,
1218
01:23:07.800 --> 01:23:08.540
you know,
1219
01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:14.300
the the thesis I've been running on for however many years and I continue to run on is that eventually,
1220
01:23:16.185 --> 01:23:23.245
I I mean, I think Ethereum is being captured currently. I mean, I think there's attempts to try and capture Bitcoin as well that are less successful, but
1221
01:23:24.450 --> 01:23:30.550
that Ethereum is being captured currently, and it will become it will become apparent to people at some point in the future.
1222
01:23:30.850 --> 01:23:31.590
I'm not gonna
1223
01:23:31.890 --> 01:23:33.350
pick any dates, but
1224
01:23:34.565 --> 01:23:46.330
if if if, you know, what does Safe say? Safe is like Ethereum is the is the mother asshole of all shitcoins birthed from. Right? Yeah. And I wonder if established it was actually Bitcoin.
1225
01:23:47.190 --> 01:23:48.810
Yeah. That birthed Ethereum. Exactly.
1226
01:23:49.270 --> 01:23:52.490
I think big yeah. I mean, look. What what was the Ethereum ICO
1227
01:23:53.265 --> 01:23:57.364
sold from? Right? You had to use Bitcoin to buy into Ethereum in the first place.
1228
01:23:58.784 --> 01:24:01.844
Like, Ethereum was originally priced in sads. But
1229
01:24:02.620 --> 01:24:05.600
I mean, the biggest thing is, like, crypto is things that are like Bitcoin.
1230
01:24:06.540 --> 01:24:16.075
My my doomer optimism on everything, whether it's financial privacy, whether it's regular digital privacy, whether it's people having, you know, Internet connected
1231
01:24:17.015 --> 01:24:22.220
cameras on their front door, is that people will get burned over time and seek out better alternatives.
1232
01:24:22.840 --> 01:24:23.740
In the financial
1233
01:24:24.600 --> 01:24:26.140
scene, I think that's Bitcoin.
1234
01:24:28.365 --> 01:24:38.510
Yeah. But but but it's not a given. I mean, I I, you know, I don't know. I agree with you, I think. Yeah. But but we can't be so certain. Like, look at BitTorrent, for example.
1235
01:24:39.850 --> 01:24:40.350
BitTorrent
1236
01:24:40.730 --> 01:24:43.150
is the reason why we have Spotify and Netflix.
1237
01:24:44.489 --> 01:24:45.469
Right? Right.
1238
01:24:46.235 --> 01:24:48.574
So if there was no BitTorrent,
1239
01:24:48.954 --> 01:24:56.800
then no way that the rights holders would agree to having a streaming app, whatever. Right? Except that now by scaring them.
1240
01:24:57.660 --> 01:24:59.280
But now it's gotten so bad.
1241
01:24:59.580 --> 01:25:00.780
Like, I like, I was
1242
01:25:01.555 --> 01:25:04.695
I may or may not have been a frequent BitTorrent user
1243
01:25:05.075 --> 01:25:14.270
before Netflix existed, and then Netflix gave me a convenient way to not be a BitTorrent user. And now there's so many streaming platforms
1244
01:25:14.570 --> 01:25:15.470
that are all
1245
01:25:15.850 --> 01:25:16.990
broken up and bifurcated
1246
01:25:17.370 --> 01:25:26.395
and stuff, and there's so much less convenience there. And I don't know what login is what login and yada yada yada. And now I'm back to being a theoretical BitTorrent user again.
1247
01:25:26.770 --> 01:25:30.950
Right. Well, that's interesting. But I think you're still in the in the minority here.
1248
01:25:31.490 --> 01:25:32.870
But yeah. I mean, maybe.
1249
01:25:33.490 --> 01:25:34.150
Who knows?
1250
01:25:35.455 --> 01:25:42.195
But, it's also again, okay, sure about how how low time preference do you want to have. Right? I mean, at some point,
1251
01:25:42.920 --> 01:25:44.360
at a on a long enough,
1252
01:25:44.760 --> 01:25:48.300
time scale, we're all gonna be dead. Yeah. Right. So,
1253
01:25:48.920 --> 01:25:54.454
I don't know. I mean, it it it might be like that. It might be the the other way. I mean, it might be,
1254
01:25:55.474 --> 01:25:56.695
that, you know,
1255
01:25:57.554 --> 01:25:58.215
the government,
1256
01:25:58.994 --> 01:26:01.270
maybe the US one just captures,
1257
01:26:02.450 --> 01:26:04.470
captures a thing. I mean, they
1258
01:26:04.850 --> 01:26:11.835
they kind of control the USDC already and via that Ethereum, and then maybe that's the c CWC.
1259
01:26:13.094 --> 01:26:15.735
And then, we're done. And then that is
1260
01:26:16.460 --> 01:26:19.840
like, I always thought that Bitcoin would have, like, one final nemesis.
1261
01:26:20.300 --> 01:26:23.475
You know? Like, the the one, like, in games, like, the last boss,
1262
01:26:24.115 --> 01:26:27.495
that that it has to fight against The final boss. Against Augustine Karstens.
1263
01:26:29.395 --> 01:26:35.630
Yeah. Well, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Well, he just looks like a final boss. You know? He's like a Bowser type of individual.
1264
01:26:36.170 --> 01:26:42.925
You know what I'm talking about? That Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I I would argue that he's not the final boss. He's like a boss on, like,
1265
01:26:44.025 --> 01:26:45.165
on, like, a section,
1266
01:26:45.465 --> 01:26:46.105
of the game,
1267
01:26:47.040 --> 01:26:50.739
whereas the final boss is, like, some small insignificant that has some
1268
01:26:51.119 --> 01:26:52.820
magical powers and just
1269
01:26:53.360 --> 01:26:53.860
anyway.
1270
01:26:55.475 --> 01:26:57.015
Well, let's pivot for a second,
1271
01:26:57.475 --> 01:27:14.335
Sergei. So when I talked to you when I first got to meet you in person, we were Internet friends for a bit, but when I first got to meet you in person was, I believe, 2019 Riga. And we were walking to, the Bull Bitcoin dinner that was in, you know, like, a little dungeon. I remember that.
1272
01:27:15.215 --> 01:27:21.420
And we had a we had a conversation for, like, 12 minutes that has stuck with me since then, and and that was on multisig.
1273
01:27:22.440 --> 01:27:23.340
I don't remember.
1274
01:27:24.200 --> 01:27:26.460
You were you were bearish on multisig.
1275
01:27:27.365 --> 01:27:28.025
Do you
1276
01:27:28.485 --> 01:27:29.945
remain bearish on multisig?
1277
01:27:31.125 --> 01:27:32.425
Do you remember why?
1278
01:27:33.125 --> 01:27:37.340
Yeah. You said it was too complex. People should just use a passphrase. Like, it's not
1279
01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:44.060
really Mhmm. Like, there there'll be a niche where people like, I I assume you believe that it's very useful for organizations and whatnot.
1280
01:27:44.995 --> 01:27:45.495
Right.
1281
01:27:45.875 --> 01:27:53.255
And But, like, you were kinda coming at it from the at that point, like, it was one of the things that we were, like, kind of hyping really hard within the
1282
01:27:53.640 --> 01:27:58.780
hardcore Bitcoin community, which was that everyone was gonna be moving to multisig for self sovereign storage.
1283
01:27:59.560 --> 01:28:00.060
Right.
1284
01:28:00.735 --> 01:28:02.035
Yeah. Well, I mean,
1285
01:28:02.735 --> 01:28:07.635
it's a good question. I mean, I think multisig is a good tool. Is it for everyone? I'm not sure.
1286
01:28:08.080 --> 01:28:08.239
Yeah.
1287
01:28:09.040 --> 01:28:10.080
I think in,
1288
01:28:11.119 --> 01:28:11.619
like,
1289
01:28:12.159 --> 01:28:12.480
sometimes,
1290
01:28:13.599 --> 01:28:16.820
we in the Bitcoin community score on goals.
1291
01:28:17.695 --> 01:28:18.135
Right?
1292
01:28:18.575 --> 01:28:20.595
And one of the ways is that we,
1293
01:28:21.055 --> 01:28:22.195
we scare people.
1294
01:28:22.655 --> 01:28:23.155
So,
1295
01:28:24.575 --> 01:28:26.080
so I I guess, like,
1296
01:28:26.460 --> 01:28:30.240
that, you know, hey. Phone wallet is not secure, so you should,
1297
01:28:31.020 --> 01:28:32.320
you should use multisig.
1298
01:28:32.765 --> 01:28:33.265
But,
1299
01:28:33.645 --> 01:28:46.989
like, most people they stay on FTX and they get rugged instead. Exactly. Exactly. Because they're like, oh, this is too complex for me. I'll just put them on an exchange. While the Ethereum community is like, we'll just use MetaMask in our browser and boom, done. Right. And,
1300
01:28:47.530 --> 01:28:48.830
and if you think about
1301
01:28:49.290 --> 01:28:49.790
how,
1302
01:28:51.215 --> 01:28:52.275
how many people,
1303
01:28:54.415 --> 01:28:59.160
lost, I mean, first of all, I think we can agree that, like, the simplest,
1304
01:28:59.940 --> 01:29:01.800
mobile wallet on the crappiest,
1305
01:29:02.820 --> 01:29:03.320
device,
1306
01:29:04.260 --> 01:29:10.215
is still going to be more secure than keeping your coins, on an exchange with usernames and passwords,
1307
01:29:10.995 --> 01:29:11.815
even disregarding
1308
01:29:12.195 --> 01:29:12.935
the element
1309
01:29:13.350 --> 01:29:14.250
of the exchange,
1310
01:29:14.869 --> 01:29:24.525
rugging you, and just looking at that. You know, your email will get compromised, and somebody will log in to your exchange to withdraw your coins. Right? So even the the the the dumbest wallets,
1311
01:29:25.065 --> 01:29:33.780
in in the dumbest setup, you know, take a screenshot of your seed phrase and and store it in your photos. Like, that's more secure than keeping a coin on an exchange.
1312
01:29:34.960 --> 01:29:41.655
But by by by, you know, like, good is the enemy of the great, Great is the enemy of the good. And so by by always,
1313
01:29:42.275 --> 01:29:46.535
arguing for the great, we sometimes lose people and never never get them to,
1314
01:29:47.475 --> 01:29:48.215
to good.
1315
01:29:49.300 --> 01:29:49.800
And,
1316
01:29:50.179 --> 01:29:53.719
I mean, I think it's changing a little bit. Like, I've recently seen,
1317
01:29:54.820 --> 01:29:56.199
people talk on Twitter
1318
01:29:56.500 --> 01:29:57.000
about,
1319
01:29:58.045 --> 01:30:06.630
wallets that, back up your keys to, like, Google Drive or similar, and they didn't get flamed into oblivion. And that wasn't just a new
1320
01:30:07.090 --> 01:30:14.230
one. Like, Moon by default is an encrypted backup to, like, Google Drive or Icloud, whichever, you know, whichever phone you have.
1321
01:30:14.625 --> 01:30:15.445
And so,
1322
01:30:15.745 --> 01:30:25.080
exactly. I mean, Moon does a lot of creative things that involve trade offs, that one can disagree with for for technical and good reasons and so on. Right.
1323
01:30:25.600 --> 01:30:26.100
Yeah.
1324
01:30:26.620 --> 01:30:27.120
But,
1325
01:30:28.900 --> 01:30:29.560
but, yeah,
1326
01:30:30.420 --> 01:30:31.400
again, like,
1327
01:30:32.355 --> 01:30:34.275
you know, any wallet is,
1328
01:30:35.635 --> 01:30:40.055
is probably going to be better than keeping your coins on an exchange,
1329
01:30:41.230 --> 01:30:43.730
for a lot of reasons, not least the right risk.
1330
01:30:44.269 --> 01:30:44.769
And
1331
01:30:45.230 --> 01:30:45.730
and,
1332
01:30:46.190 --> 01:30:46.929
and so,
1333
01:30:47.309 --> 01:30:48.929
also, multisig is dangerous.
1334
01:30:49.230 --> 01:30:49.730
Like,
1335
01:30:52.301 --> 01:30:55.585
it's Right. Most people most people that lose their coins are either getting
1336
01:30:56.125 --> 01:30:58.705
they're either getting, like, rugged on an exchange.
1337
01:30:59.460 --> 01:31:05.880
They're either doing a they're a phishing scam where they just, like, get an email and they put in their seed phrase,
1338
01:31:07.195 --> 01:31:18.739
or they they have time to get lost. It's like they lose the seed or with multisig, I mean, you have to you have to also keep the master x pub as well. Exactly. Well, exactly.
1339
01:31:19.200 --> 01:31:29.365
Exactly. And and people don't realize that. Right? They think that, hey. I have a a 3 out of 5. I wrote down 5 seed phrase. I distributed to them to, to 4 of my friends.
1340
01:31:30.120 --> 01:31:37.415
And then, you know, one of them disappears, and then we can gather the the 3 of the the remaining ones, and we can claim the coins.
1341
01:31:37.735 --> 01:31:45.750
Nah. Incorrect. You need to have the, the the config file. Yeah. Right? You need to have the master XPub for the 5th key,
1342
01:31:46.950 --> 01:31:47.930
which is not
1343
01:31:48.390 --> 01:31:53.530
not always clearly communicated in Right. That's more of a UX server, and it's early.
1344
01:31:54.345 --> 01:31:56.685
Okay. It's early. Is it early?
1345
01:31:58.665 --> 01:32:03.085
I yeah. I think as long as people are buying Bitcoin and they're not earning Bitcoin, it's still early.
1346
01:32:04.290 --> 01:32:05.650
Yeah. I guess in that sense,
1347
01:32:06.210 --> 01:32:12.790
I agree. Like, in that sense, it is early, but also, like, you know, Bitcoin is 1 year younger than the iPhone.
1348
01:32:13.635 --> 01:32:20.215
But also Multisig is very early. Like, Multisig is, like, yeah, we had armory and shit, but, like, user friendly Multisig
1349
01:32:20.595 --> 01:32:34.735
is only, like, 2 years old. Right? Like, it's a spiral in this. You can go. On the wallet and have has had the multisig for a long time. Yeah. But Electrum is Yeah. Sure. User front. I mean, Electrum's great. I love Electrum, but it's just
1350
01:32:35.195 --> 01:32:41.770
I I would Well, I yeah. No. I'm not call it a user front. I'm not, I'm not I think it's important to be,
1351
01:32:42.410 --> 01:32:44.370
clear here that I'm not against
1352
01:32:44.810 --> 01:32:45.870
I'm not to say.
1353
01:32:46.489 --> 01:32:46.989
Yeah.
1354
01:32:48.345 --> 01:33:04.969
Well, that conversation has lived in my head, by the way, for 3 years now. I'm just, you know, one of these people. Like, I'm a contrarian. Right? And and the Bitcoin community Yeah. That's why I love you. People who who think that they're contrarians, but they're often not contrarian towards their in group. Right? So whatever people are hyped up about,
1355
01:33:05.485 --> 01:33:08.225
I'm going to be contrarian against.
1356
01:33:08.685 --> 01:33:12.970
Right? So if everyone's hyped about something, I'm gonna be having this thing.
1357
01:33:14.010 --> 01:33:14.410
But,
1358
01:33:16.730 --> 01:33:18.830
yeah. Yeah. So we have a comment from
1359
01:33:19.450 --> 01:33:27.625
Rem Bax in the matrix chat saying multisig is good for organizations and maybe public figures. I would go beyond that and say multisig
1360
01:33:28.460 --> 01:33:31.120
is absolutely game changing for organizations.
1361
01:33:31.500 --> 01:33:34.960
If you run any kind of organization that interacts with Bitcoin,
1362
01:33:35.635 --> 01:33:39.895
the fact that you can have, like, spending controls that actually people need to,
1363
01:33:40.914 --> 01:33:47.700
you have to have multiple people within an organization sign on any transaction and have the responsibility of signing for those transactions
1364
01:33:48.960 --> 01:34:06.900
is one of the coolest that like, I still have I have not. I'm there's multiple organizations I'm a part of. The freaks know that I'm just, like, have stretched myself massively thin and do a ton of things in the Bitcoin space. There's a lot of organizational multisigs I'm a part of, and every time I sign a transaction that's a multisig
1365
01:34:08.335 --> 01:34:15.270
with other parties in in one of these organizations, it is the coolest thing ever. Like, I have not gotten over yet how cool that is.
1366
01:34:15.990 --> 01:34:19.370
Yep. And, I mean, I still think that, you know, like,
1367
01:34:19.830 --> 01:34:24.805
yeah, no matter multisig or single signal, whatever, but, like, just the fact that you, you know, click
1368
01:34:25.205 --> 01:34:29.945
for a couple of times on a computer and tap on the keyboard and whatever, and then, like,
1369
01:34:30.645 --> 01:34:38.290
1,000 of dollars appear somewhere else in the world. Like, how magic is this? It's really like, they we actually built,
1370
01:34:39.310 --> 01:34:40.610
built, that.
1371
01:34:43.114 --> 01:34:44.735
We have to sometimes also.
1372
01:34:45.594 --> 01:34:52.120
It hasn't worn it it hasn't worn off yet. It's still Yeah. I don't I don't think it will ever, wear off.
1373
01:34:52.680 --> 01:34:56.700
Yeah. I don't know. Maybe the kids that are born today are going to take that for granted.
1374
01:34:57.160 --> 01:34:58.200
Yeah. But,
1375
01:34:59.160 --> 01:35:01.660
that's also, I guess, an interesting topic. Like,
1376
01:35:02.855 --> 01:35:03.355
kids,
1377
01:35:04.295 --> 01:35:04.935
and the,
1378
01:35:05.495 --> 01:35:09.835
the fact that, you know, again, Bitcoin's been around for, what, 12, 13
1379
01:35:11.940 --> 01:35:12.680
13 years.
1380
01:35:13.940 --> 01:35:15.640
So there's people that are
1381
01:35:17.220 --> 01:35:19.140
growing up in their teenagers that,
1382
01:35:20.260 --> 01:35:22.645
where Bitcoin has always been there,
1383
01:35:23.285 --> 01:35:24.985
for their entire, you know,
1384
01:35:25.285 --> 01:35:25.725
cognizant
1385
01:35:26.165 --> 01:35:28.025
Right. Life. And,
1386
01:35:28.885 --> 01:35:33.610
that's also the an area that I kind of feel like, we should explore more. Like, we've seen,
1387
01:35:34.230 --> 01:35:35.770
on Bitrefill, we frequently
1388
01:35:36.230 --> 01:35:36.730
see,
1389
01:35:37.190 --> 01:35:37.690
kids.
1390
01:35:38.255 --> 01:35:41.075
Yeah. Right? And by kids So they don't have bank accounts?
1391
01:35:41.455 --> 01:35:48.230
They don't have bank accounts. It's different kids. Right? They can be 12 year olds, with their weekly allowance, and it can be,
1392
01:35:49.330 --> 01:35:50.470
17 year olds,
1393
01:35:50.850 --> 01:35:51.350
that,
1394
01:35:52.530 --> 01:35:55.170
figured out, that, this is a way to get,
1395
01:35:56.195 --> 01:36:00.135
get cold skins, for their, for their in game
1396
01:36:00.514 --> 01:36:01.815
Counter strike or whatever.
1397
01:36:02.195 --> 01:36:03.240
Yeah. Right.
1398
01:36:03.560 --> 01:36:04.700
Yeah. And,
1399
01:36:05.160 --> 01:36:06.920
I mean, that is a big audience.
1400
01:36:07.640 --> 01:36:14.985
We don't really see them, so much, in the, in the Bitcoin community, I think. Like, I don't even know of any
1401
01:36:15.685 --> 01:36:21.145
I mean, the the last famous teenager we had was Vitalik Buterin, I think. Yeah. But, like,
1402
01:36:21.600 --> 01:36:25.700
who who are these teenage, teenage Bitcoin celebrities? We have
1403
01:36:26.240 --> 01:36:26.740
Barack,
1404
01:36:27.440 --> 01:36:31.925
who's attacking lightning and saying he loves chaos. He was on the show last week.
1405
01:36:32.305 --> 01:36:36.085
We used to have Ben Kaufman, but then he went down the shitcoin rabbit hole.
1406
01:36:36.865 --> 01:36:40.180
He realized he could make more money working in the Bitcoin industry.
1407
01:36:40.880 --> 01:36:41.380
Uh-huh.
1408
01:36:42.480 --> 01:36:43.460
I didn't know that.
1409
01:36:43.920 --> 01:36:45.940
Who else do we have to see on in
1410
01:36:46.240 --> 01:36:48.695
the future? Are, you know, kind of, you know, like
1411
01:36:49.494 --> 01:36:50.155
I mean,
1412
01:36:51.014 --> 01:36:51.675
to me,
1413
01:36:52.775 --> 01:36:55.114
like, I remember when blogs
1414
01:36:55.790 --> 01:36:59.489
crossed the chasm and went into the mainstream from being a thing for nerds.
1415
01:36:59.950 --> 01:37:01.730
And the thing that took blogs,
1416
01:37:02.350 --> 01:37:04.370
to the mainstream was teenage girls.
1417
01:37:04.724 --> 01:37:05.385
Right? And,
1418
01:37:05.764 --> 01:37:07.284
they started blogging about,
1419
01:37:07.844 --> 01:37:10.824
what they did today and The online diaries. Makeup.
1420
01:37:11.364 --> 01:37:15.840
Right. And, and the and society thought it was completely unreasonable,
1421
01:37:16.219 --> 01:37:23.324
and they did it anyway. And and people laughed at them, and then it became a massive thing. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah. What do we have?
1422
01:37:23.864 --> 01:37:25.565
What do we have for teenage girls?
1423
01:37:26.185 --> 01:37:27.405
Yeah. How can we,
1424
01:37:28.105 --> 01:37:30.250
how can we get them on
1425
01:37:31.610 --> 01:37:32.430
on the Bitcoin?
1426
01:37:35.130 --> 01:37:39.710
Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the reason why there's so much hate towards shitcoiners
1427
01:37:40.974 --> 01:37:41.635
is because
1428
01:37:43.295 --> 01:37:47.795
they just have so much money behind them that's, like, printed from scams.
1429
01:37:48.680 --> 01:37:49.660
So, like, whenever
1430
01:37:50.120 --> 01:37:52.940
and maybe this is just an excuse that
1431
01:37:53.320 --> 01:37:55.100
pulls away from personal responsibility
1432
01:37:55.880 --> 01:37:57.500
on Bitcoin's side, but
1433
01:37:58.035 --> 01:38:04.970
it's like whenever, like, our grassroots adoption kind of starts to gain any kind of wind, you have the shit corners just come in and
1434
01:38:06.010 --> 01:38:13.870
dominate the conversation. I mean, we saw it in El Salvador. Like, as soon as El Salvador announced legal tender, there was a shitcoin delegation there, like, a week later.
1435
01:38:14.275 --> 01:38:15.015
Of course.
1436
01:38:16.515 --> 01:38:21.975
Yeah. Such a such a is our industry, and, yes, it's always been the case that,
1437
01:38:23.150 --> 01:38:26.449
that Bitcoin is the one coin that doesn't have a marketing department.
1438
01:38:27.630 --> 01:38:28.269
Yeah. And,
1439
01:38:29.550 --> 01:38:32.195
and still, it has achieved everything that it has
1440
01:38:32.675 --> 01:38:34.215
achieved, yeah, and so on.
1441
01:38:35.074 --> 01:38:41.415
But that's why I'm just thinking about, like, the kids. Right? Like, it's like, you try, like Yeah. But, like, we don't have a kid.
1442
01:38:42.330 --> 01:38:47.710
So, like, for instance, at Bitcoin like, I do consulting for Bitcoin Magazine. I've been their strategic adviser,
1443
01:38:48.490 --> 01:38:52.945
for 2 years now. And, like, half the team are kids that dropped out of college.
1444
01:38:53.965 --> 01:38:58.860
Right. So, like, we do have young big corners, but, like, the problem is that a lot of Then you're not kids. I mean,
1445
01:38:59.239 --> 01:39:00.460
they're 20 years old.
1446
01:39:01.400 --> 01:39:03.340
Yeah. I mean, they get denied at the bar
1447
01:39:03.800 --> 01:39:06.105
in America at least. In America. Yeah.
1448
01:39:06.585 --> 01:39:07.565
Yeah. But fair.
1449
01:39:08.185 --> 01:39:09.405
But, I mean,
1450
01:39:10.105 --> 01:39:11.405
Bitcoin doesn't have
1451
01:39:11.785 --> 01:39:15.640
marketing department in some ways. In other ways, it does.
1452
01:39:15.960 --> 01:39:16.460
Right?
1453
01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:22.220
I mean, you are part of it. Maybe I'm part of it as well. We're all part of, the decentralized
1454
01:39:23.215 --> 01:39:28.434
marketing departments. Right? And I I think, like, part of, like, the the critiques that I've been
1455
01:39:28.735 --> 01:39:48.034
raising is because I want our marketing department to do better. Yeah. Right? I think what's really cool is, like, Andre Neves and, like, the Bitcoin gaming side, I think there's there's there's a lot of potential there with kids. We just did a integration with Zebedee that was announced today. So shout out to the people at Zebedee.
1456
01:39:48.800 --> 01:39:50.260
It's funny because he's not
1457
01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:54.340
like, his company you know, I one of my projects is 1031,
1458
01:39:54.640 --> 01:39:56.500
which is a Bitcoin only venture fund.
1459
01:39:57.040 --> 01:39:57.940
Like, his
1460
01:39:58.635 --> 01:40:02.974
his his company is not valued as a Bitcoin only company. Like, he's a gaming company.
1461
01:40:03.275 --> 01:40:05.920
So he has access to all this capital from, like,
1462
01:40:06.320 --> 01:40:06.820
gaming
1463
01:40:07.120 --> 01:40:08.179
gaming funds.
1464
01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:16.265
So he kind of, like, escaped that hole where where Bitcoin only projects tend to have trouble getting funding,
1465
01:40:18.085 --> 01:40:23.465
because of that gaming overlap. Primarily, it's a gaming company, and they're just integrating SaaS into gaming.
1466
01:40:24.300 --> 01:40:24.800
Yep.
1467
01:40:25.180 --> 01:40:26.540
And, I mean, in the end,
1468
01:40:27.180 --> 01:40:43.540
you know, Bitcoin company will mean the same that Internet company means today. Right. Yeah. Right? They'll be like, what's an Internet company? I don't even know. Like, is a shoemaker an Internet company if she has a website? And, you know, we can discuss that or we cannot discuss that. Yeah. Right?
1469
01:40:44.560 --> 01:40:45.860
So, of course,
1470
01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:48.270
I think
1471
01:40:48.735 --> 01:40:52.355
most Bitcoin companies are intersection of Bitcoin and something else.
1472
01:40:53.055 --> 01:40:53.215
And,
1473
01:40:54.095 --> 01:40:54.595
but,
1474
01:40:55.295 --> 01:41:02.780
but yeah. Then there's Bitcoin on the main, which means that, you can interact intersect with anything else except for for, other cryptocurrencies.
1475
01:41:03.239 --> 01:41:12.014
My dream is that within the next few years, I'm playing a video game, and some 13 year old kid in, like, Thailand or the Philippines or some shit
1476
01:41:12.450 --> 01:41:19.430
is just absolutely destroying me because he has quicker reactions than I do, and I'm just losing sats to him. Like, that is
1477
01:41:20.175 --> 01:41:24.115
that is one of my dreams. Like, that's when I know we'll have we'll have made it to a degree.
1478
01:41:24.655 --> 01:41:37.925
But I think you can, you already have that with, with Sibir and Counter Strike and so on. Yeah. Yeah. Because Counter Strike was a big one. Yeah. The Counter Strike was a big one because, like, they took an existing game, and they kind of just dropped it in there.
1479
01:41:38.785 --> 01:41:45.125
But I wanna see, like, one of the large and I know it's it's not gonna happen overnight because it's really the challengers that want to
1480
01:41:45.580 --> 01:41:47.199
innovate on models before
1481
01:41:47.739 --> 01:41:51.760
the big dogs do it. Right? But, like, a like, a Fortnite or something, something with
1482
01:41:52.219 --> 01:41:53.760
100 of millions of players.
1483
01:41:55.215 --> 01:41:59.075
Counter Strike has a lot, but it's not, like, integrated into the direct Counter Strike game.
1484
01:42:00.095 --> 01:42:05.150
Yeah. But, like, in order for these things, I think, to be really, really, really successful
1485
01:42:05.550 --> 01:42:17.215
I mean, currently, the model, as I understand it at least, relies on, like, advertising and so on to get money in, which then, is converted to SaaS and paid out to users. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. Which is great, but it's ad based.
1486
01:42:17.835 --> 01:42:19.935
The KYC friction issue too.
1487
01:42:20.380 --> 01:42:22.639
Right. Which is Yeah. But so,
1488
01:42:24.619 --> 01:42:27.199
but the interesting thing is when people start,
1489
01:42:27.980 --> 01:42:33.125
paying for games, right, when there is a big enough addressable market of people with SaaS,
1490
01:42:33.905 --> 01:42:35.605
ready to to
1491
01:42:36.320 --> 01:42:39.300
play games, buy items, whatever it is people do.
1492
01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:43.475
Right? So that, again, we we actually get a
1493
01:42:44.035 --> 01:42:46.935
circulating economy even, within the games.
1494
01:42:49.955 --> 01:42:52.615
Right. And for that, we need more people with wallets,
1495
01:42:52.990 --> 01:42:55.730
basically. Well, no. We I think that's my main, more wallets,
1496
01:42:56.190 --> 01:42:57.970
to spend a little bit of money there.
1497
01:42:58.350 --> 01:42:59.890
Fortnite is a free game,
1498
01:43:00.350 --> 01:43:05.715
but Epic makes 1,000,000,000 of dollars selling these skins that don't change anything.
1499
01:43:06.335 --> 01:43:10.035
I mean, people are just people are paying for them. They're just paying with credit cards,
1500
01:43:11.440 --> 01:43:13.860
instead of sats. Like, that could easily be
1501
01:43:14.400 --> 01:43:15.860
just a QR code.
1502
01:43:17.040 --> 01:43:18.135
NFTs. Yeah.
1503
01:43:18.695 --> 01:43:20.875
Well, I mean, it's the same. Right? I mean, again,
1504
01:43:21.255 --> 01:43:27.755
in game currencies are are the same as shit coins. Right? And in game items are the same as They're the original shit coin.
1505
01:43:28.230 --> 01:43:31.050
Yeah. Yeah. It's the same thing.
1506
01:43:31.510 --> 01:43:32.010
Games,
1507
01:43:32.390 --> 01:43:37.385
want to have their own currency so that because they can print infinite amounts of it,
1508
01:43:38.184 --> 01:43:38.925
and also
1509
01:43:39.304 --> 01:43:41.644
because they control it. So on.
1510
01:43:42.025 --> 01:43:42.264
So,
1511
01:43:42.905 --> 01:43:44.045
we'll see. I think,
1512
01:43:44.585 --> 01:43:46.684
like, it it'll have to be that,
1513
01:43:47.980 --> 01:43:49.520
you know, the Bitcoin games
1514
01:43:51.020 --> 01:43:51.520
win
1515
01:43:51.900 --> 01:43:55.280
over the non Bitcoin games. Like, I think that that's the path.
1516
01:43:58.765 --> 01:44:05.300
Yeah. Like I said, I think it's gonna have to be challengers. Like, the big games are obviously gonna wanna continue to print their own currency, but
1517
01:44:05.940 --> 01:44:09.239
but there's an advantage for challengers to come in
1518
01:44:09.540 --> 01:44:10.920
and be like, Well, look, we
1519
01:44:11.780 --> 01:44:17.465
use real money that you can actually withdraw and use to buy things, including on Bitrefill.
1520
01:44:18.485 --> 01:44:22.105
So use our game instead, and then eventually, one of those will ideally
1521
01:44:22.900 --> 01:44:30.600
win. And at that point, then it becomes the model and then everyone follows it. I mean, before Fortnite exists, no one thought you'd be out.
1522
01:44:31.725 --> 01:44:33.745
Isn't this the same as the NFT game?
1523
01:44:35.165 --> 01:44:36.065
What do you mean?
1524
01:44:36.925 --> 01:44:39.185
Well, I mean, if you you can see,
1525
01:44:39.725 --> 01:44:48.210
crypto as a game. Right? You you trade tokens to go up and down the value number. Some kind of number goes up, and, you get some kind of satisfaction from that.
1526
01:44:49.344 --> 01:44:49.844
And,
1527
01:44:50.224 --> 01:44:53.045
NFTs are in game items in that
1528
01:44:53.505 --> 01:44:54.005
world.
1529
01:44:55.105 --> 01:44:55.605
Right?
1530
01:44:56.224 --> 01:44:58.190
Right. Like I mean, is
1531
01:44:58.970 --> 01:44:59.450
is,
1532
01:44:59.850 --> 01:45:02.430
an NFT with a picture of a monkey,
1533
01:45:04.090 --> 01:45:06.110
more, less, or equal a shitcoinery,
1534
01:45:06.730 --> 01:45:08.155
than a skin,
1535
01:45:08.554 --> 01:45:15.135
for, for a Kalashnikov and counter strike. Well, I mean, like so I like your phrase, what, cursing in the church? It's a cool phrase.
1536
01:45:16.420 --> 01:45:18.600
You're, like, kinda making me curse in the church.
1537
01:45:18.980 --> 01:45:20.980
I think the n t industry is,
1538
01:45:22.020 --> 01:45:26.735
rife with scams and bullshit and not disclosing trade offs and pump and dumps
1539
01:45:27.675 --> 01:45:29.695
and and wash trading and all this bullshit.
1540
01:45:30.155 --> 01:45:38.640
But at the same time, like games and games go? If I don't know. No. That's what that's what I was about to say. Like, if if there was an interoperable standard
1541
01:45:39.420 --> 01:45:40.800
for in game skins,
1542
01:45:41.660 --> 01:45:43.760
where you can transfer them between games,
1543
01:45:44.285 --> 01:45:52.785
is strictly a net benefit over the existing status quo, which is you you buy this skin and it's just locked into this completely centralized walled garden.
1544
01:45:53.230 --> 01:45:59.090
Like, there is What if you can't even transfer it? Like, I mean, transferring it to I don't know if that's the important part here.
1545
01:46:00.245 --> 01:46:03.305
Well, I think the cool part about Sats and games is interoperability
1546
01:46:03.685 --> 01:46:09.705
and, like, the actual ability to to pull those funds off. Right? Sure. But the Sats are money. An argument. Right,
1547
01:46:11.190 --> 01:46:14.150
Whereas crypto's in game currency and NFTs are,
1548
01:46:14.710 --> 01:46:17.449
in game items. So it's a different So, like,
1549
01:46:17.855 --> 01:46:19.315
once again, like,
1550
01:46:21.535 --> 01:46:24.755
I I I think a big game would not do this,
1551
01:46:26.450 --> 01:46:31.830
because they like their walled garden, but a challenger might. And it would be cool if,
1552
01:46:32.290 --> 01:46:32.950
you know,
1553
01:46:33.625 --> 01:46:46.830
if if you if you spent 2,000 hours playing a game and you won all these skins, and then a competitor comes out with a new game and is able to cryptographically verify that you have those skins from that game and gives you rewards based on that,
1554
01:46:47.530 --> 01:46:59.030
is a massive, it's just a massive improvement over the status quo. Like, if I spend 2,000 hours playing this one game and then a competitor comes out and is able to actually reward me for playing a different game that they didn't make,
1555
01:47:00.130 --> 01:47:03.760
to kinda bring me in. But you know what's going to happen is gamers.
1556
01:47:04.135 --> 01:47:19.280
But the second iteration of that is that the game one game is going to figure out that if we can present these in game items as speculative items, they're gonna go up in value. I know. Yeah. This is gonna be all scambles for all. It's going to be popular, and we would have reinvented
1557
01:47:19.900 --> 01:47:20.400
NFTs.
1558
01:47:21.065 --> 01:47:47.010
Yeah. And so Jevi is saying that game producers don't wanna make their content interoperable. I agree. But that's just why I keep coming back to it has to be it has to be challengers. Like, it's not gonna be the big publishing houses. It's always the challengers. Like, Venmo did a great as well, by the way. Yeah. Venmo didn't great integrate Bitcoin first. Cash App did. Cash App was number 2 in the payment space in the US, and they needed an edge, so they integrated Bitcoin. And then guess what happened? Venmo had no choice but to integrate
1559
01:47:47.470 --> 01:48:01.265
Bitcoin, and they had no choice but to integrate Bitcoin withdrawals, which I've been on the record saying they never were gonna do. And now we end up in a a situation where you can transfer between Venmo and Cash App easily using Bitcoin. And it was because the challenger adopted it first.
1560
01:48:02.320 --> 01:48:02.820
Interesting.
1561
01:48:03.280 --> 01:48:13.545
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Withdraw from Venmo in Bitcoin, and you can deposit it to Cash App with Bitcoin. So you can transfer between the 2 for the first time in your initial idea. And it's This is massive.
1562
01:48:14.565 --> 01:48:23.570
Yeah. It's just because of of game theory incentives. Right? The challenger adopts it first, the challenger becomes starts to win, and then the incumbent has to kind of
1563
01:48:24.349 --> 01:48:27.730
kowtow to it and come in. Yeah. And I think that that's,
1564
01:48:28.565 --> 01:48:32.665
in terms of the the Bitcoin marketing team is that, like, that's what
1565
01:48:33.525 --> 01:48:34.025
Bitcoin,
1566
01:48:34.645 --> 01:48:38.105
should focus at, like, the challengers,
1567
01:48:38.470 --> 01:48:43.290
but also, like, everyone else's because the dominant player is never going to. And they're disincentivized,
1568
01:48:44.070 --> 01:48:44.970
from interoperability.
1569
01:48:45.645 --> 01:48:47.405
And this goes even inside,
1570
01:48:48.045 --> 01:48:50.225
you know, in the in the Bitcoin space
1571
01:48:50.605 --> 01:48:53.824
as well. That, like, the large wallets are less incentivized
1572
01:48:54.125 --> 01:49:01.760
to to make transactions. The large exchanges are not incentivized to make withdrawals easy and so on. And so it always has to be
1573
01:49:03.115 --> 01:49:05.515
the small ones, the everyone else, and,
1574
01:49:05.915 --> 01:49:08.655
and then the way that we win is that if we
1575
01:49:09.035 --> 01:49:11.480
if the combined efforts of the everyone else
1576
01:49:12.040 --> 01:49:15.420
reaches a tipping point, I don't know, 50% or something,
1577
01:49:16.280 --> 01:49:20.220
then, yeah, suddenly, we will have standards. We will have interoperability
1578
01:49:20.840 --> 01:49:22.655
and all of these things.
1579
01:49:24.715 --> 01:49:28.575
So, I mean, this has been a great conversation. I've absolutely enjoyed it.
1580
01:49:29.270 --> 01:49:39.885
We do have Cypher Odeum in the matrix chat saying when's it a little coin, and then you realize that it already exists by someone else because every shitcoin under the sun, like, there's names for everything already.
1581
01:49:40.665 --> 01:49:41.065
There
1582
01:49:41.465 --> 01:49:52.520
we already have a token at ciel dispatch, and that's sats, and that will never change. You will never hear me shill a shitcoin. You will never hear me try and sell you NFTs even if that would make fundraising this type of show,
1583
01:49:54.284 --> 01:49:54.784
demonstrably
1584
01:49:55.085 --> 01:49:57.425
easier. I've seen tons of Shitcoin shows,
1585
01:49:58.045 --> 01:50:05.580
spin up their own bullshit DAOs and whatever. I'm not gonna do any of that garbage with you guys. If you find value from the show, please contribute stats. It is appreciated.
1586
01:50:07.880 --> 01:50:13.475
You just, you know, go to sill dispatch.com and click that big support the show button, and it'll take you to the Geyser page.
1587
01:50:14.015 --> 01:50:18.160
But but, Sergei, before before we wrap up the show, like, we have to talk
1588
01:50:18.640 --> 01:50:29.295
we have to talk about our our our niche drama that is the RBF stuff. We we have to just we have to at least touch on it. It looks like right now that Bitcoin core
1589
01:50:29.835 --> 01:50:32.495
core has already merged and, like, in the next release,
1590
01:50:33.195 --> 01:50:34.655
people will have the option
1591
01:50:35.340 --> 01:50:36.400
to toggle on,
1592
01:50:37.739 --> 01:50:42.639
RBF by default, replace by feed by default, which means that if someone sends a transaction,
1593
01:50:43.985 --> 01:50:50.405
that is in your mempool and then they if you have this toggle set on, which is off by default, but you can turn it on,
1594
01:50:52.590 --> 01:50:57.969
then it gets replaced by a higher fee transaction if you send another transaction with a higher fee.
1595
01:50:58.510 --> 01:51:03.575
You've been on the opposite side of this conversation. How do you feel about it right now?
1596
01:51:04.595 --> 01:51:05.895
I think it's a big mistake.
1597
01:51:09.390 --> 01:51:11.250
I think I've spoken up about it.
1598
01:51:13.870 --> 01:51:14.530
I mean,
1599
01:51:15.230 --> 01:51:16.050
John Carlo,
1600
01:51:16.510 --> 01:51:19.335
is a better Internet fighter than me. I'm like
1601
01:51:19.735 --> 01:51:20.875
I don't think so.
1602
01:51:21.574 --> 01:51:22.375
Late nights,
1603
01:51:22.855 --> 01:51:25.675
I'm You're too humble. You're too humble, Sergei.
1604
01:51:26.230 --> 01:51:36.585
I, I think the way he argues it is is is not an effective argument. I I think the way he argues it is a Streisand effect and just makes me wanna turn the toggle on as soon as I have it. I don't know.
1605
01:51:36.965 --> 01:51:38.105
I actually think that,
1606
01:51:39.845 --> 01:51:44.670
like, he I mean, I don't always agree with his style of doing things, but in this case, I think he's been,
1607
01:51:45.530 --> 01:51:46.030
relatively
1608
01:51:46.489 --> 01:51:47.310
to the point.
1609
01:51:48.330 --> 01:51:50.030
But, I mean, fundamentally,
1610
01:51:52.025 --> 01:51:53.885
you know, there is a current
1611
01:51:54.425 --> 01:51:55.085
I mean,
1612
01:51:55.545 --> 01:51:57.725
there is a way that the Bitcoin network
1613
01:51:58.105 --> 01:51:59.085
works today,
1614
01:52:00.440 --> 01:52:00.940
and
1615
01:52:01.880 --> 01:52:02.860
which is that
1616
01:52:03.960 --> 01:52:04.460
nodes
1617
01:52:05.639 --> 01:52:06.365
do not
1618
01:52:07.245 --> 01:52:16.719
replace the first in transaction unless it has the RBF flag. Right? Yeah. Which was the compromise that you said there. Your wallet sets that this is an RBF transaction
1619
01:52:17.180 --> 01:52:18.800
when at the time of sending?
1620
01:52:20.699 --> 01:52:21.199
Yeah.
1621
01:52:22.060 --> 01:52:22.560
Exactly.
1622
01:52:23.420 --> 01:52:23.920
And
1623
01:52:24.515 --> 01:52:25.255
and so
1624
01:52:25.955 --> 01:52:27.335
the fact that
1625
01:52:28.595 --> 01:52:29.495
this behavior,
1626
01:52:30.515 --> 01:52:31.575
exists leads
1627
01:52:32.195 --> 01:52:32.695
to
1628
01:52:33.490 --> 01:52:34.390
to a property,
1629
01:52:35.330 --> 01:52:36.390
that can be used,
1630
01:52:37.490 --> 01:52:39.270
to somewhat reliably.
1631
01:52:39.570 --> 01:52:45.595
Let's be very clear here. But to somewhat reliably accept transactions without waiting for a confirmation,
1632
01:52:46.455 --> 01:52:48.555
which is immensely useful for the simple,
1633
01:52:49.095 --> 01:52:51.120
I think, reason that
1634
01:52:51.660 --> 01:52:53.040
Bitcoin blocks are unpredictable,
1635
01:52:53.900 --> 01:52:57.360
like, by a lot. Sometimes you have to wait for an hour for the next block.
1636
01:52:57.665 --> 01:53:09.260
Sometimes Binance shows up and dumps a 150 megabytes of blocks above the As soon as you send a transaction. They always do it right after I send them. Yeah. You blocks are predictable, and I I think that the most important,
1637
01:53:10.679 --> 01:53:18.335
thing, when building technology is for things to be predictable because if it's predictable, then people can work, with it around it and so on.
1638
01:53:20.315 --> 01:53:22.495
There's also, like, a lot of other,
1639
01:53:23.115 --> 01:53:27.070
and so, like, we we've been I mean, first of all, this is not something new. Like,
1640
01:53:27.630 --> 01:53:29.250
Satoshi described RBF,
1641
01:53:29.550 --> 01:53:29.630
in
1642
01:53:31.070 --> 01:53:31.570
sorry.
1643
01:53:32.030 --> 01:53:33.135
Satoshi described,
1644
01:53:33.614 --> 01:53:35.715
that the vending machine would use 0Conf,
1645
01:53:36.974 --> 01:53:38.114
and that it would,
1646
01:53:38.574 --> 01:53:41.290
have much lower fraud rates than a credit card,
1647
01:53:42.490 --> 01:53:47.790
in 2010. And then, Jeff Garzik argued with him, and Satoshi replied with the classic,
1648
01:53:48.250 --> 01:53:50.830
if you don't understand, I don't have time
1649
01:53:51.205 --> 01:53:51.865
to explain.
1650
01:53:52.485 --> 01:53:58.345
Yeah. Wait. I forget the quote now. It's a bit late here. It wasn't it wasn't with Varsik. It was with
1651
01:53:59.780 --> 01:54:02.600
the EOS guy. Right? Okay. Okay. Maybe.
1652
01:54:02.980 --> 01:54:08.440
But but the point is that that that that quote from Satoshi is specifically because somebody,
1653
01:54:08.975 --> 01:54:09.475
criticized
1654
01:54:09.775 --> 01:54:13.395
the If you don't understand it, I don't have time to explain it. Exactly.
1655
01:54:13.935 --> 01:54:14.435
Yeah.
1656
01:54:14.975 --> 01:54:15.475
So,
1657
01:54:18.030 --> 01:54:19.570
we've been doing,
1658
01:54:20.990 --> 01:54:21.490
using,
1659
01:54:22.830 --> 01:54:29.925
this property to accept transactions instantly on the. It's not instantly. There's some seconds and so on and some other
1660
01:54:30.225 --> 01:54:30.725
stuff.
1661
01:54:33.185 --> 01:54:33.685
We
1662
01:54:34.030 --> 01:54:34.910
don't get,
1663
01:54:35.550 --> 01:54:38.450
abused. Like, it's less than 1
1664
01:54:38.830 --> 01:54:40.370
in a 1000000 transactions.
1665
01:54:41.285 --> 01:54:44.585
Yeah. Do, like, a fraud calculation on the fly, basically. Right?
1666
01:54:45.045 --> 01:54:59.164
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, like, it's it's relatively simplistic. You know? Like, you you need to spend a, you know, a couple of days working on it, but, like, we it's not that fancy. Like, people are imagining all kinds of things. There were civil attacking the network and blah blah blah blah. Like, no. So what happens if someone has
1667
01:55:00.025 --> 01:55:02.525
an RBF if someone has the RBF
1668
01:55:03.144 --> 01:55:07.970
flag enabled on their transaction, so they signal that it's like blue bond for instance.
1669
01:55:08.510 --> 01:55:13.250
Yes. Like So they actually implemented the the RBF is false flag in BIP 21,
1670
01:55:13.630 --> 01:55:17.705
because we asked them to, and then we we meant to to make it standard.
1671
01:55:18.485 --> 01:55:28.090
And, but now, the core devs are are kinda working. But but I'm just well, let's just go down this path for a second. So I have I have RBF by default enabled in Spire Wallet.
1672
01:55:28.630 --> 01:55:30.010
I pay you on Bitrefill.
1673
01:55:30.630 --> 01:55:31.110
Yep.
1674
01:55:31.670 --> 01:55:36.455
In the current environment, let you know, this this new version of core hasn't been released yet.
1675
01:55:37.075 --> 01:55:40.375
Does does the fact that I have RBF enabled just automatically
1676
01:55:40.835 --> 01:55:45.199
preclude me from like, or do you automatically exclude me from the 0 comp?
1677
01:55:45.500 --> 01:55:51.040
Yes. Yeah. But very generously, we we will accept your transaction when it confirms,
1678
01:55:51.715 --> 01:55:54.855
which we do at very at very significant risk.
1679
01:55:55.554 --> 01:55:58.990
Oh, at the price at the price when I sent it? Yes. Yes.
1680
01:56:00.250 --> 01:56:02.030
Which is a big risk. And and
1681
01:56:02.810 --> 01:56:06.750
and so the the court devs are arguing that it's better to replace,
1682
01:56:07.135 --> 01:56:07.935
you know, that,
1683
01:56:08.415 --> 01:56:11.955
one time in a million, you're gonna lose all of the money in a payment,
1684
01:56:12.735 --> 01:56:14.415
to sort of everybody has,
1685
01:56:15.750 --> 01:56:16.250
has,
1686
01:56:18.030 --> 01:56:18.690
an easy,
1687
01:56:19.389 --> 01:56:21.409
flag to scam me for a couple of percent.
1688
01:56:21.949 --> 01:56:22.449
And,
1689
01:56:24.435 --> 01:56:27.175
I mean, it's it's a little bit, you know, like,
1690
01:56:27.955 --> 01:56:31.015
the arguments are very strange. And, I mean, I think it's
1691
01:56:31.470 --> 01:56:42.885
like, many okay. Cursing a church. Many core devs don't actually talk to users of Bitcoin. Right? Most of them couldn't name any of the more popular Bitcoin wallets. Right?
1692
01:56:43.905 --> 01:56:46.965
They they have a very theoretical understanding of
1693
01:56:48.310 --> 01:56:50.730
many of them. I mean, I'm I'm generalizing here,
1694
01:56:51.590 --> 01:56:56.970
of how Bitcoin works and how it should work, but not necessarily how it works in practice.
1695
01:56:57.295 --> 01:56:59.155
Right? Right. The users are using
1696
01:56:59.695 --> 01:57:00.195
Tron,
1697
01:57:00.735 --> 01:57:03.554
USDT, and Trust Wallet with some Bitcoin and other
1698
01:57:04.175 --> 01:57:07.150
Bitcoin. Right? Right. Let's just talk about Bitcoin here.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/25/2024 10:13:34 PM
Duration: 8572.029
Channels: 1
1
00:00:35.410 --> 00:00:37.670
2
00:00:38.545 --> 00:00:41.765
It's your boy Odell here for another Surajale Dispatch,
3
00:00:42.385 --> 00:00:46.405
the interactive show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.
4
00:00:47.720 --> 00:00:51.740
It's always a pleasure to rip these dispatches with all you freaks,
5
00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:52.700
and,
6
00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:55.900
looking forward to this one as well. As always,
7
00:00:56.315 --> 00:01:00.335
dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.
8
00:01:01.035 --> 00:01:02.335
We rely on donations
9
00:01:03.274 --> 00:01:04.175
from our audience
10
00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:06.340
in order to support the show.
11
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:12.900
The easiest way to support the show is via podcasting 2 point o apps, such as Fountain, Breeze,
12
00:01:13.675 --> 00:01:14.415
Echo LN,
13
00:01:15.275 --> 00:01:18.415
and others. Podverse. Fm is another big one.
14
00:01:18.715 --> 00:01:19.535
You simply
15
00:01:20.075 --> 00:01:23.820
download the app, or if it's a web browser based client, go to the web,
16
00:01:24.440 --> 00:01:29.525
search Silla dispatch, press that subscribe button, choose how many sats per minute you think the show is worth,
17
00:01:30.085 --> 00:01:33.945
and those sats will get streamed directly to my node.
18
00:01:34.485 --> 00:01:36.185
Also, in podcasting 2.0,
19
00:01:36.485 --> 00:01:38.610
there is a feature called boostograms.
20
00:01:38.990 --> 00:01:41.410
Boostograms are the ability to send
21
00:01:41.950 --> 00:01:43.970
a lump sum payment of sats
22
00:01:44.350 --> 00:01:45.490
along with a message.
23
00:01:46.110 --> 00:01:47.010
Every week
24
00:01:47.365 --> 00:01:50.105
on dispatch, I read the top boostergrams
25
00:01:50.485 --> 00:01:53.785
from the previous week, but also everyone can read them as well.
26
00:01:55.130 --> 00:01:56.670
We have Eric 99
27
00:01:57.689 --> 00:02:03.545
with 50,000 sats saying stay humble and stack sats. Really great advice, Eric. Appreciate you. We have atlawbitcoin
28
00:02:04.005 --> 00:02:04.745
with 45,000
29
00:02:05.125 --> 00:02:10.505
sats saying appreciate the signal among all the noise. Have a happy Thanksgiving with family and friends.
30
00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:15.460
Very timely. Happy Thanksgiving to all the freaks from America here. We have at chadpharaoh
31
00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:16.580
with 25,000
32
00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:22.635
sats, no message. We have at vague, 25,000 sats, no message. And we have at Pablo
33
00:02:23.575 --> 00:02:25.195
f seven z with 25,000
34
00:02:25.655 --> 00:02:28.875
sats saying make hashtag reckless great again.
35
00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:33.390
So thank you, Freaks, who continue to support the show with sats.
36
00:02:36.165 --> 00:02:41.305
You guys are amazing, and I love seeing the Sats flow into the node. I also set up something new,
37
00:02:42.085 --> 00:02:43.305
over the last week,
38
00:02:43.959 --> 00:02:45.019
called geyser.fund.
39
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I'm gonna pull this up on the screen to the freaks who are watching.
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That's geyser.fund
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/project/citadel.
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It's an interface similar to a Kickstarter or a Patreon
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that not only lists all the podcasting 2.0
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sats that come in and the messages attached to the boostagram so you go and can see that,
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but it also allows you to contribute
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via On Chain or Lightning directly on the website. So if you're not using a Podcasting 2.0 app and you would like to support the show,
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doing doing it through this interface still goes to my own note. You can think of it similar to how I had BTCPay
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set up previously.
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Custody wise, it's exactly the same thing. It's going to my own full node. But this way, you guys are able to track how much you are supporting the show. Right now, we're at 2,200,000
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sats.
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Would love to see that number continue to go up. I do appreciate all the freaks and support, and your messages will show up there when you do it.
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I am known to be a bit of a domain huddler myself,
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so I've redirected citadel.lol
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to this website. So if you go to citadel.lol
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in your web browser,
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you can see a live update on how much funds, how many sats,
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the Freaks have supported the show. And as you can see right now on the screen, it even shows as you're streaming in the sats per minute,
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directly to my note. It's pretty pretty fucking cool, and huge shout out to the team at geyser.fund,
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for making this a possibility and offering this service
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to anyone who's trying to raise ads from people for free,
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and,
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while maintaining self custody of all their funds. Really, really cool.
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On top of all that, freaks, I know it's a bear market. If you can't support the show with stats,
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I understand.
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If
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you can still support the show by sharing it with your friends and family,
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subscribing on your favorite platforms, as always, it's available on Twitch, it's available on YouTube, it's It's available on Rumble. It's available on Bitcoin TV, and it's available in any podcasting app. Pressing subscribe, leaving a review, sharing with friends and family, these all help. And last but not least,
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joining us for these live chats. Joining us in the live chat, actually participating in the discussion, giving your questions, giving your comments, putting them in boostergrams. This is what makes this show unique. This you know, I like to think that I'm not the only host of Citadel Dispatch.
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You're all hosts of Citadel dispatch, and I I couldn't do it without you. So thank you all. Thank you all for your support.
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There's a lot of haters out there for the value for value model, and, I think we can prove them wrong.
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So, here's to you, and and let's keep pushing forward. With all that said,
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thank you for sticking with me during this preamble.
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We have a great guest
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in the house. We have Sergei from Bitrefill.
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How's it going, Sergei?
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Thanks so much for having me on.
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So bit brief. So let's I I think a good place to start here is,
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yes, Carlos. You are a host.
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We have ride or die free, Carlos, in the in the live chat asking if he's a host. He is a host as well, and he says he'll take one of these weeks so I can, have a week off. So we'll keep that in mind, Carlos. Thank you.
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Let let's start with Bitrefill. What is Bitrefill for, you know, the dozen of people that don't know what Bitrefill is?
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And we specifically, we,
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we offer things like
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gift cards for for ecommerce and physical commerce and,
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phone refills, bill payments, things like that.
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So,
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if you wanna buy something in the real world with the stats,
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that
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you earn,
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for example, by podcasting and getting generous
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donations from from your audience. And Bitrefill is a very simple click, click,
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click, solution, to
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to achieve ecommerce,
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with this ads.
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smaller topics we'll be covering kind of fall into it. That's my main topic,
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So the the main I guess,
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the majority of the volume is for gift cards through Bitrefill. Right? And Yes. And then you have phone top ups. What would you say, like, the breakdown is between, like, phone top ups and gift cards?
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If you count humans, there's a a meaningful chunk that does phone top ups with their low volume. If you count dollars, then, obviously, gift cards are,
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much bigger.
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So just real quick, BTC pins in a YouTube comment saying his comment got censored on the live feed. I just wanna be clear here. I do no active moderation of the chat.
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If you're commenting through YouTube or Twitch,
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their algo might
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censor you, you can always comment on the matrix chat, which the link is at siladispatch.com.
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All of the relevant links are all at siladispatch.com.
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One thing I wanna note is,
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there's a slight change
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to the matrix chat.
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We now have 2 matrix chats. We have the original matrix chat that has over a 1000 people. That is end to end encrypted.
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Matrix's encryption in rooms that size starts to get really bogged down,
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unreliable, so we also have a no encrypted
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Citadel chat, and that's the one that's being broadcast on the screen. So if you're in the existing Matrix chat listening right now wondering why you don't see it,
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I put a link in that chat as well, but it's in silodispatch.com.
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So,
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Sergei, when when we're talking about when
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when we're talking about payments,
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one of the cool things about Bitrefill
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is whenever you give presentations, I feel like you always provide us with all these awesome stats. You always provide us with all these awesome stats
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about what how people paid, what are the different payment breakdowns. You you know, you support Lightning. You support on chain Bitcoin.
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I think in in our little bubble, a lot of people think that, you know, Lightning payments are dominating right now. And in your experience, what do you see,
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about that breakdown between,
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Lightning versus on chain?
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on chain is,
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again, it depends a little bit if you count unique users or
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or dollars.
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But,
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in euros,
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on chain is like
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7, 6, 7 times bigger than lightning.
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Yeah. If you count,
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individual
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transactions or humans, then, Lightning's doing a little bit better.
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Let me see if I have that actually.
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a 5th
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of, of on chain.
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Oh, shit. So, I mean, the difference is not that big. You know, people are always like, oh, you should count the small transaction, this and that. Like, it doesn't make that big of a difference. It's just easier
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for little random things
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to,
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yeah, to skew the stats.
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So it's somewhere there. Like most Bitcoin
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users, use on chain to pay to buy stuff from the trade flow. Yes.
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Shitcoins and Stablecoins.
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Is We do. Bitcoin on chain is the most?
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the biggest single
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payment method, but it's
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it's,
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just under it's around 30% of volume.
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Yeah. So it's the biggest one. Yeah. But, but it's not It's about 30%.
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on chain.
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Ethereum. But then but then it's kind of close with, Tether on Tron and Binance Pay.
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other stuff.
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What is Binance Pay?
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off chain solution for people to pay within their,
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straight within their Binance account.
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that use,
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Binance have money there. We we actually never don't see what kind of
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coins it is if they're paying with,
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which balance. It just gets converted to us. But,
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We convert I mean, we, the vast majority of the money we need to send back to,
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to to buy more gift cards.
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Bitcoin on chain is 30%,
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then Ethereum is second at what
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percentage around?
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it's around 17.
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Tether on Tron and then this Binance Pay thing are close behind that. So they're around 17 as well. Yeah. They're around 16.
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And then where does lightning fall on that?
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Yes.
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So it's somewhere, you know, in the in the 5 area. You know, it depends on how you So would you say lightning support on bitrefill is more of a forward looking goal?
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I think, I mean, we started on Lightning when there was 0 users on Lightning.
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We I think
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the first purchase on Lightning was on Bitrefill,
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when,
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Alex,
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from Lightning Labs bought something on the beta private beta that we sent him and posted it on Twitter, and that was that.
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Just that quite a few people use other things as well.
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Yeah. So how do we get that number up? Why do you think that number is so low?
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I mean,
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from the point, that that I'm approaching this,
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is,
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I mean, it's fundamentally, it's a marketing issue. Right?
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And
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or at least product market fit issue. And I think that,
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I mean, from from Bitrefa's perspective, like, our marketing is, like, finding people who have
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coins to spend. Right? So people that either
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bought the coins when they were worth less or people who are earning them in different ways in their paycheck, in their,
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in their SaaS donations, on,
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on their content,
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trading, and whatever.
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Great. And so
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the question is sort of how do we
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get,
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Lightning Sats into the hands of
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people that are are looking to, to engage? I think
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I mean, maybe I can, like, give a short summary, I guess, of of that talk. I think it's an interesting
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observation that,
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you know,
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Bitcoin is both a tool and a movement. Right?
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And it's a movement that sort of circulates around
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a tool, a thing, like Bitcoin itself. It's not a person, it's a thing. Right? And
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all of us here, like the fact that we're recording a podcast about
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Bitcoin and that there are people listening to this indicates that all of us, both you and I and and everybody who who listens,
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does this because they're part of a movement.
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Right? We want Bitcoin to succeed and that we
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spend a significant chunk of our lives,
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talking, thinking, working
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to make make that happen. Right? But there's also a lot of people that use Bitcoin as a tool.
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Right?
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So, I mean, you know, like,
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I use cars sometimes. You probably do as well.
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Right? But we wouldn't dream of, like, going to a car conference
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even though such things exist. Right? And there are, you know, disputes,
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what's the real car, and this isn't the real car, and
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the classic car maximalist, and the sports car maximalist, and blah blah blah blah blah. Like, those things exist, but we don't care. Right? Because we mostly like, we order an Uber, we go from a to b, and we're happy, and we achieved the benefit of car. Right?
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And and it's in a similar way with, with Bitcoin that,
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even though there is a very vibrant community,
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of people who are passionate
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about, about Bitcoin and wish it to succeed,
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there's a much, much, much bigger group of people that
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that use
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Bitcoin and don't particularly,
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you know,
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care about it, right, in the same way that you and I don't care about the cars that we,
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you know,
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drive around in. Right.
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And
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and those people are hard to reach. Like, they're not going to listen to this podcast. Right? Because why would they?
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Right?
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I mean, if it's just a tool like you and I again, we don't listen to
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we use a lot of stuff every day, a lot of tools, but we don't necessarily listen to podcasts about all of them. And so yeah. And and so there is this like, there is obviously this overlap. Right? I mean,
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you and I are a good example of an overlap, and this
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this podcast collects donations and sats.
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And so you actually have an income in sats, and you're, like, a a typical excellent customer of somebody that we would try to,
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try to find.
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Yeah. But but so there is an overlap, of course, but there is also, like, we talked about the people that use Bitcoin as a tool, that don't particularly care so much about us as a movement.
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And there's also quite a large number of people. This was surprising to me, that are part of the movement that don't actually use Bitcoin as a tool. Yeah. Right?
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And
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lightning is a little bit
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in in that category. Right? Because, like, there's a lot of Bitcoiners that, you know, they like Bitcoin. They want it succeed. They want lightning to succeed.
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They will do what they can to help, but they just, you know, don't really have a need for it. They bought some Bitcoin. They put it in a nice secure cold storage, locked it away. They don't even have an access to it. They don't have a wallet on their phone. And Right. They don't spend. They don't they don't spend. They don't earn. They don't engage in the circular economy. They, you know, they cheerlead. They're investors. Right? Same way as customers,
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companies have investors
282
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283
00:19:50.385 --> 00:19:51.685
let alone spend Bitcoin.
284
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285
00:19:54.145 --> 00:19:57.285
For example. But but the self custody thing is a little bit
286
00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:00.799
orthogonal, I'd I'd say, because, like, you can have
287
00:20:01.179 --> 00:20:01.840
a mobile,
288
00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:03.440
wallet that is custodial,
289
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:11.635
right, but still engaged. Like, strike is a good example of that. Right? So, I mean, the custom I mean, it's there. It's similar somewhere,
290
00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:14.970
but but it's not like, it's important to be,
291
00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:16.410
I think,
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00:20:16.870 --> 00:20:19.885
specific, right, to to pinpoint these things because these are
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00:20:20.845 --> 00:20:23.345
difficult issues, and I think that this question is important.
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You know?
295
00:20:26.845 --> 00:20:28.385
Why? Because I think that,
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you know, the free the freedom money, the Internet money narrative,
297
00:20:33.659 --> 00:20:43.375
is, at, at the core of all of this. And, so there was somebody call commented that Bitcoin is a store of value. I was like, yeah. It is. But it's only a store of value
298
00:20:43.675 --> 00:20:45.615
because you can transfer it over the Internet.
299
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:55.620
If you couldn't transfer it over the Internet, meaning transact, then it kind of wouldn't have been a store of value either. Right? And so there's been this, I think it's like leftovers from
300
00:20:56.145 --> 00:21:01.365
from 2017 in the Bitcoin community where people are like, oh, it's a sort of value. Oh, it's a medium of change.
301
00:21:01.825 --> 00:21:07.460
Like, no. It's both. You know? You can't have the one without the other, and, like, Satoshi covered all of this.
302
00:21:07.760 --> 00:21:08.480
Yeah. Right?
303
00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:10.740
I'm still sort of always
304
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.955
amazed in, like, how much of the space,
305
00:21:14.975 --> 00:21:15.475
Satarshe,
306
00:21:16.575 --> 00:21:18.515
actually managed to successfully analyze,
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00:21:18.975 --> 00:21:24.090
including actually the 0 count debate, which I guess maybe we'll get to. Yeah. But,
308
00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:25.850
you know, that,
309
00:21:28.385 --> 00:21:29.184
you you know this
310
00:21:29.904 --> 00:21:31.845
100% know this quote. Like, imagine,
311
00:21:32.865 --> 00:21:33.924
imagine a metal,
312
00:21:34.304 --> 00:21:35.445
that has no particular,
313
00:21:36.065 --> 00:21:36.565
qualities.
314
00:21:37.105 --> 00:21:41.680
It's not useful in any way except for the property that you can transfer it over the Internet. Right?
315
00:21:42.460 --> 00:21:48.735
If somehow it were to acquire value, it will be very valuable because then you could send it over the Internet, and you could buy it here, sell it there.
316
00:21:49.035 --> 00:21:54.655
Yeah. And then and then that would be great. But how will it would it acquire value in the in the first place? Well,
317
00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:56.220
because,
318
00:21:56.540 --> 00:22:05.465
of speculation. Right? Because it might make sense to get some in case it catches on. Right. People expect us to improve value. So Like, this is day 1 of Satoshi.
319
00:22:05.845 --> 00:22:07.144
He literally explains,
320
00:22:07.524 --> 00:22:15.630
the entire industry, and 10 years later, we're still sort of in in that. Like, it might make sense sense to get some case that catches on, like, people do, and then,
321
00:22:16.090 --> 00:22:21.310
suddenly they're like, oh, it's going to be the world money and everything. It's just gonna go to the moon and all of that.
322
00:22:22.075 --> 00:22:22.575
Right?
323
00:22:23.195 --> 00:22:24.095
But so, yes,
324
00:22:24.635 --> 00:22:25.915
we're zoom zooming out,
325
00:22:26.715 --> 00:22:28.655
a little bit because I get carried away.
326
00:22:29.169 --> 00:22:32.629
Yeah. So, basically, you know, we we have the people that use Bitcoin,
327
00:22:33.090 --> 00:22:34.149
and then you can imagine,
328
00:22:35.409 --> 00:22:37.350
and by use, I mean, to transact.
329
00:22:37.735 --> 00:22:40.555
Right? Obviously, howling is using as well, but that's, like,
330
00:22:40.935 --> 00:22:43.515
a different story than than what we're discussing.
331
00:22:43.895 --> 00:22:49.780
And so there's a there's a set of people that transact with Bitcoin, and there's a set of people that love
332
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:57.845
Bitcoin. Right? And they overlap, to some extent, but there's a big group that loves Bitcoin doesn't transact, and there's a very big group that transaction Bitcoin
333
00:22:58.865 --> 00:22:59.845
that doesn't particularly
334
00:23:00.785 --> 00:23:03.605
love Bitcoin anymore than you and I love cars.
335
00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:05.649
Does that make sense?
336
00:23:06.110 --> 00:23:06.929
Yes. So
337
00:23:07.389 --> 00:23:11.149
so it's also like a bit of a question, I think, for us in the movement,
338
00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:22.285
that maybe I can even ask to you. Like, do you think I mean, we all want Bitcoin to achieve world dominance and be the money of, of the world. But is it is it required
339
00:23:22.760 --> 00:23:35.054
and desirable for that for every person in the world to sort of identify as a Bitcoiner, to listen to podcasts, go to conferences, to care so deeply about it? Like, do we think that that's
340
00:23:35.355 --> 00:23:36.895
a desirable realistic goal?
341
00:23:37.674 --> 00:23:42.870
342
00:23:43.409 --> 00:23:46.309
343
00:23:47.015 --> 00:23:52.635
And so, I have gone to Internet conferences. They were great. And then I went to social media conferences.
344
00:23:53.095 --> 00:24:03.340
And today that's hilarious as well. And I mean, Bitcoin conferences have forked as well. Right? I mean Right. Crypto conferences forked off, and the Bitcoin conference is splitting up as well into more and more subcategories.
345
00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:05.674
And now we're, like, in a situation where,
346
00:24:05.975 --> 00:24:10.794
there's a lot of very similar conferences and probably they're going to fork deeper because as the group,
347
00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:18.730
the the small growth the smaller subcultures emerge. Right? Right. But probably so you and I agree that, like, realistically,
348
00:24:19.554 --> 00:24:21.655
if everybody in the world is using Bitcoin,
349
00:24:22.275 --> 00:24:23.735
they're not going to be
350
00:24:24.115 --> 00:24:25.315
caring about it,
351
00:24:25.715 --> 00:24:29.220
352
00:24:29.860 --> 00:24:30.360
Exactly.
353
00:24:30.820 --> 00:24:31.320
354
00:24:31.780 --> 00:24:33.780
And and and so that's, sort of,
355
00:24:34.659 --> 00:24:35.539
why I think,
356
00:24:36.260 --> 00:24:37.780
we we do a lot of,
357
00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:39.205
of
358
00:24:39.765 --> 00:24:40.825
working with,
359
00:24:41.284 --> 00:24:45.784
I mean, we work with the group that transaction Bitcoin. Right? And so we're trying to,
360
00:24:46.520 --> 00:24:47.180
to find,
361
00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.200
them in in all of their shapes and,
362
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:52.780
and forms. Right? Some of them are,
363
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:58.235
people that you and I would meet on on conferences or on Twitter. Some of them are different.
364
00:24:58.775 --> 00:25:00.794
Right, and they have different
365
00:25:02.340 --> 00:25:03.960
flows, different needs functions,
366
00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:05.480
that that Bitcoin,
367
00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:06.500
shapes,
368
00:25:06.820 --> 00:25:12.205
for them. And I'm of the view that Bitcoin is a thing. And so, you know,
369
00:25:12.664 --> 00:25:15.885
if it scratches an issue for you, that's great. I'm very happy that it does.
370
00:25:17.784 --> 00:25:19.804
371
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:22.160
So then
372
00:25:24.060 --> 00:25:26.160
373
00:25:26.540 --> 00:25:27.840
Yeah. And Right.
374
00:25:28.300 --> 00:25:29.840
375
00:25:30.195 --> 00:25:33.175
like, partake like, I think most Bitcoiners would agree
376
00:25:33.955 --> 00:25:37.495
or maybe not. But I think I believe
377
00:25:38.620 --> 00:25:45.600
that light if if Lightning if if if a centralized Binance Pay is being used more than Lightning,
378
00:25:45.965 --> 00:25:46.865
then we have significantly
379
00:25:47.245 --> 00:25:48.545
more work to be done.
380
00:25:49.325 --> 00:25:49.825
381
00:25:50.285 --> 00:25:52.045
Yeah. Agreed. And and and that's,
382
00:25:52.765 --> 00:25:53.345
I think,
383
00:25:55.005 --> 00:25:55.505
where,
384
00:25:56.710 --> 00:26:01.530
that's all I mean, maybe this is sidetracked, but, like, there is definitely a dilemma in which when a
385
00:26:01.910 --> 00:26:03.005
centralized entity
386
00:26:03.965 --> 00:26:05.985
on an open network becomes too dominant,
387
00:26:06.365 --> 00:26:07.025
they actually,
388
00:26:07.645 --> 00:26:08.385
start creating
389
00:26:08.925 --> 00:26:09.425
disincentives,
390
00:26:10.285 --> 00:26:11.025
for integrating
391
00:26:11.565 --> 00:26:12.945
with the open network.
392
00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:15.730
Yeah. There's many examples in history when that happens.
393
00:26:16.190 --> 00:26:20.755
Yeah. But in any case, yes, we we definitely have, have work to do
394
00:26:21.475 --> 00:26:22.435
in terms of,
395
00:26:22.915 --> 00:26:24.455
getting lightning into,
396
00:26:25.155 --> 00:26:26.615
into the hands of,
397
00:26:27.875 --> 00:26:28.115
of,
398
00:26:28.675 --> 00:26:29.895
the people that,
399
00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:33.400
that use
400
00:26:33.780 --> 00:26:34.280
Bitcoin.
401
00:26:35.540 --> 00:26:40.440
We can do another thing that I did in that talk as well. Let me just set
402
00:26:42.885 --> 00:26:44.825
maybe you wanna play this game.
403
00:26:45.365 --> 00:26:47.465
So we have a wallet selector on Bitrefill.
404
00:26:47.765 --> 00:26:52.330
It's actually being reworked right now, so the the stats might be slightly slightly off,
405
00:26:53.110 --> 00:26:57.690
406
00:26:58.205 --> 00:27:01.424
407
00:27:01.885 --> 00:27:07.379
408
00:27:08.340 --> 00:27:09.399
It trust wallet,
409
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.799
blockchain dot info,
410
00:27:12.899 --> 00:27:13.399
and
411
00:27:14.965 --> 00:27:17.945
another garbage wallet. Did I get 2 of the 3?
412
00:27:19.044 --> 00:27:20.105
413
00:27:20.965 --> 00:27:23.945
Yeah. Your direction is right. Yeah. Exodus also.
414
00:27:25.190 --> 00:27:31.690
Exodus. After that, actually, comes Electrum Moon and Strike and Blue Oat as well. So, I mean, they're all Wow. Electrum's number 4?
415
00:27:33.085 --> 00:27:33.985
1, 2,
416
00:27:34.765 --> 00:27:35.424
3, 4,
417
00:27:35.725 --> 00:27:36.225
5.
418
00:27:37.005 --> 00:27:41.760
Yeah. But, yeah, Electrum is like it's been surprising me how strong it's going all these
419
00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:45.760
years. Yeah. So I always shout out to to
420
00:27:47.260 --> 00:27:49.200
to the Electrum devs. Like,
421
00:27:49.524 --> 00:27:51.705
they built a thing that stood the test of time
422
00:27:52.005 --> 00:27:54.424
and still does, and it's a great wallet.
423
00:27:55.125 --> 00:27:56.105
And, yeah.
424
00:27:56.710 --> 00:28:01.930
425
00:28:03.725 --> 00:28:09.985
426
00:28:10.605 --> 00:28:11.105
Chivo,
427
00:28:11.965 --> 00:28:12.784
Trust Wallet,
428
00:28:13.309 --> 00:28:14.210
Electro Moon.
429
00:28:15.070 --> 00:28:16.769
430
00:28:17.630 --> 00:28:20.370
431
00:28:21.005 --> 00:28:26.065
And there's a lot of people in El Salvador that use Chivo and This is ranked by unique users?
432
00:28:26.684 --> 00:28:27.184
Yes.
433
00:28:27.860 --> 00:28:31.559
434
00:28:32.340 --> 00:28:35.460
435
00:28:37.105 --> 00:28:51.625
if you use a wallet that's always reliable and never an issue, you might actually not care to use this feature. Whereas if you have a wallet that sometimes has a little bit of bugs, then maybe use it a little bit more. But I I don't think that SKU is too significant. Probably, it was inflated a little bit.
436
00:28:52.185 --> 00:28:57.245
437
00:28:57.785 --> 00:28:59.645
our little echo chamber bubble.
438
00:29:01.059 --> 00:29:05.720
439
00:29:06.340 --> 00:29:08.120
stats because you can always
440
00:29:10.445 --> 00:29:10.925
mislead,
441
00:29:11.245 --> 00:29:19.480
with stats and, like, you know, we can, you know, I can present stats about, like, oh, lightning is doubling every year. It's great. And then I can find, like,
442
00:29:20.260 --> 00:29:21.159
smallest number,
443
00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:28.345
that is not a lie but misleading about, oh, lightning is tiny. Right? And they could post them out, and, one will
444
00:29:28.725 --> 00:29:34.585
be super viral in the in the Bitcoin community. The other one will be very vital. The bullish world is always viral.
445
00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:56.050
Yeah. The bearish one as well. It's just in the in the in those who don't like it. Right? The the ethereans or, or the no corners and so on. But let's just unpack those for real quick. Nuance, like, gets stuck, but I kind of insist on, on Nuance because, again, like, this is an important thing that we're working on, not just the bit we feel we, but bigger we.
446
00:29:56.590 --> 00:29:58.130
And so I think it's important
447
00:29:58.625 --> 00:30:00.805
because, I mean, this like, personally,
448
00:30:01.265 --> 00:30:04.405
like, some people perceive me as, like, always being critical of Bitcoin.
449
00:30:04.945 --> 00:30:06.409
And maybe that's true,
450
00:30:06.870 --> 00:30:10.570
that I don't, you know, cheerlead to the moon so much these days.
451
00:30:11.350 --> 00:30:11.850
But
452
00:30:12.390 --> 00:30:16.215
I mean, mainly it's because like I don't feel like we're done.
453
00:30:16.755 --> 00:30:18.775
Yeah. I don't think we're anywhere near done.
454
00:30:19.155 --> 00:30:21.175
And if we're not anywhere near done,
455
00:30:21.555 --> 00:30:22.055
then
456
00:30:22.515 --> 00:30:23.335
it's important,
457
00:30:23.875 --> 00:30:24.375
that
458
00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:25.909
we talk
459
00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:31.669
straight about the things as they are so that other people can act upon good information
460
00:30:32.085 --> 00:30:34.585
and so that we can get to a better place.
461
00:30:35.125 --> 00:30:44.830
Yeah. Right. Like, my question is, like, how do we 10 exit? You know, how do a 100 exit? I know that, like, these days, there were I mean, I guess, past years, like, there was a lot of, like,
462
00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:46.110
the sound money
463
00:30:46.410 --> 00:31:00.560
maximalist. They were like, oh, you know, in in the end, all of the money divided by 21,000,000, and that's going to be we're gonna be on the moon. Right. And then they and you kind of ask, like, how are we gonna get there? And they they never know. It's like it's predetermined. Right? So we don't actually This is inevitable.
464
00:31:01.260 --> 00:31:11.885
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, in in my book, I mean, maybe this is cursing a church, but, like, I think that this on money narrative is the same as talk to flow. Right? It's this idea that, just because,
465
00:31:12.745 --> 00:31:14.125
the supply is limited,
466
00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:17.070
then that means that
467
00:31:17.530 --> 00:31:20.670
everything else is preordained and we're gonna be on
468
00:31:21.130 --> 00:31:21.870
on the moon.
469
00:31:22.545 --> 00:31:25.924
And I don't know. I don't think that's limited supply alone is
470
00:31:26.545 --> 00:31:31.845
is what's gonna get us there. I mean, there's a lot of things that have limited supply. Fucking Litecoin has limited supply.
471
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:32.700
And
472
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.300
so Well, not really.
473
00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:38.620
I don't know. I mean, I mean,
474
00:31:39.815 --> 00:31:57.965
The the the key, I mean, the key is how hard is the protocol to change. Right? Yeah. We we don't know that for Bitcoin or for the Litecoin. So I mean, it's definitely significantly easier on Litecoin. Yeah. I don't know. How I mean, I I think I agree with you. But, like, how would you prove that to me?
475
00:31:58.924 --> 00:32:00.225
476
00:32:01.164 --> 00:32:04.284
place your bets. I don't know how to prove it to you. Yeah. I would
477
00:32:05.310 --> 00:32:13.090
478
00:32:14.815 --> 00:32:15.315
479
00:32:15.934 --> 00:32:20.995
no. I think we're we're, like, we're pretty much aligned. Like, this is why I started dispatch. Like, I am
480
00:32:22.580 --> 00:32:25.480
probably one of the most bullish people on Bitcoin on the planet,
481
00:32:26.340 --> 00:32:28.520
but I got sick of the fact that,
482
00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:31.480
you know, people were just saying blind,
483
00:32:31.945 --> 00:32:38.125
bullish engagement things on podcasts and Twitter and whatnot, and that we actually need a critical lens and open discussion,
484
00:32:38.825 --> 00:32:40.525
and we need to actually make improvements
485
00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:41.779
you know,
486
00:32:42.159 --> 00:32:45.299
to how people use Bitcoin and how people interact with Bitcoin.
487
00:32:45.679 --> 00:32:51.825
And a perfect example is your list of top wallets. I mean, on those on the list of top wallets,
488
00:32:52.524 --> 00:32:57.345
you know, one of the top ones is Trust Wallet, which is which is owned and operated by Binance.
489
00:32:57.740 --> 00:33:01.920
I believe it's a closed source wallet. It not only does it not support Lightning,
490
00:33:02.780 --> 00:33:07.695
but it uses a fixed reused address for Bitcoin transactions, which is
491
00:33:10.315 --> 00:33:10.895
universally universally
492
00:33:13.560 --> 00:33:17.420
not encouraged. Like, that's horrible for privacy to use a reused address,
493
00:33:18.760 --> 00:33:28.600
just to show where their priorities are. But but here, with bitrefill stats, you can see it's one of the most used wallets in the world, even though no one on Bitcoin and Twitter would ever recommend it.
494
00:33:29.320 --> 00:33:47.870
495
00:33:48.650 --> 00:33:52.350
maybe more. What do you think? Like, how big is, the Bitcoiner
496
00:33:52.810 --> 00:33:53.310
community?
497
00:33:54.730 --> 00:33:55.550
498
00:33:56.735 --> 00:34:00.275
499
00:34:01.135 --> 00:34:02.355
500
00:34:02.735 --> 00:34:07.200
501
00:34:12.305 --> 00:34:14.565
That's a good question. I think quite a few actually.
502
00:34:15.825 --> 00:34:18.964
I mean, you know, Ledger sold a million in the previous previous
503
00:34:19.744 --> 00:34:21.250
504
00:34:23.090 --> 00:34:25.030
505
00:34:25.330 --> 00:34:26.070
Yeah. Sure.
506
00:34:27.650 --> 00:34:30.470
So, I mean, I think quite a few, self custody.
507
00:34:30.905 --> 00:34:33.165
I mean, it's definitely over under 30,000,000?
508
00:34:37.785 --> 00:34:39.005
Under. Of course, under.
509
00:34:39.670 --> 00:34:44.010
510
00:34:44.870 --> 00:34:49.345
people people hold Bitcoin, he's he's including IOUs. Right?
511
00:34:50.365 --> 00:34:53.025
512
00:34:53.405 --> 00:34:55.905
But, I mean, probably it's like a
513
00:34:56.609 --> 00:34:57.109
Coinbase's
514
00:34:57.410 --> 00:34:58.470
number of accounts,
515
00:34:58.930 --> 00:35:00.390
that's north of a 100,000,000.
516
00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:01.750
Yeah.
517
00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:06.285
518
00:35:07.645 --> 00:35:08.444
519
00:35:08.765 --> 00:35:11.905
I guess, we don't know that either, but that doesn't matter really.
520
00:35:12.605 --> 00:35:16.060
There's I mean, if it is worthwhile, then we should expect there to be
521
00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:17.520
feds and folks.
522
00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:19.760
523
00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:30.415
BTC Pins is neck deep in the Bitcoin circular economy, and he offers dispatch pins for sale. If you buy a dispatch pin from him, a portion goes to supporting the show as well. So
524
00:35:30.795 --> 00:35:31.695
check that out.
525
00:35:32.155 --> 00:35:32.895
526
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:34.840
527
00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:43.474
528
00:35:44.095 --> 00:35:44.894
Yeah. Yeah. It's very similar,
529
00:35:46.494 --> 00:35:49.234
in in in in the specs, let's say.
530
00:35:51.750 --> 00:35:58.170
And so and these are remember, these are people that pay with Bitcoin. Right? And this isn't people that pay us with Ethereum
531
00:35:58.549 --> 00:36:01.005
or something else. This is people who pay with Bitcoin.
532
00:36:01.385 --> 00:36:01.885
And,
533
00:36:03.305 --> 00:36:10.070
and and so then, you you know, you kind of, like, ask yourselves, like, how does Bitcoin end up in in such a wallet?
534
00:36:10.930 --> 00:36:19.255
And, I guess one simple exercise that anybody listening to this can do is to just open their phone, open the App Store or the Google Play Store or,
535
00:36:19.954 --> 00:36:21.015
whatever, Cypherpunk
536
00:36:21.635 --> 00:36:23.175
app store that you guys use,
537
00:36:24.194 --> 00:36:24.694
and
538
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:27.820
and type in the phrase Bitcoin wallets.
539
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.980
Right? I think that's the fairest
540
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:37.755
search phrase, and you can see what shows up. Right? And again, remember that somebody who uses Bitcoin as a tool,
541
00:36:39.175 --> 00:36:40.520
like, for example, like, if
542
00:36:41.160 --> 00:36:44.060
you and I want to download the BitTorrent client.
543
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.220
Okay. I I I'm not gonna speak for you. For me, I would type in BitTorrent into
544
00:36:48.895 --> 00:36:51.395
into Google, and I would get one of the clients,
545
00:36:51.775 --> 00:36:52.495
that looks,
546
00:36:52.975 --> 00:36:57.235
legit enough. And I wouldn't care much if it's the best one, if the BitTorrent
547
00:36:58.060 --> 00:36:58.560
enthusiasts
548
00:36:59.020 --> 00:37:02.800
think it's good, or if there's technical trade offs or or whatever. Right?
549
00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:12.125
Right. So there's that. Now there's also, like, if you look at some of the other payment methods that we have. So let's take one example. So Tether on Tron.
550
00:37:13.700 --> 00:37:16.099
Right. Tether on Tron has a very vibrant,
551
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.760
circular economy, especially in Latin America.
552
00:37:19.299 --> 00:37:24.085
Yeah. There's a lot of people, in countries like Argentina, some other places that,
553
00:37:24.785 --> 00:37:25.605
work online,
554
00:37:26.465 --> 00:37:27.525
deal with dollars.
555
00:37:27.985 --> 00:37:28.645
It achieves,
556
00:37:29.185 --> 00:37:31.605
dollars for them in a country where,
557
00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:33.590
the currency is not trustworthy.
558
00:37:34.609 --> 00:37:35.670
It also achieves,
559
00:37:36.450 --> 00:37:36.850
that,
560
00:37:37.330 --> 00:37:43.815
the value of, their money is not moving up and down as much as it does with, with regular BTC.
561
00:37:44.355 --> 00:37:48.295
And and the and these people are kind of willing to take the trade off of trusting,
562
00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:50.270
the Teledy company,
563
00:37:51.770 --> 00:37:51.930
with,
564
00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:55.390
with them not running away with, with their money.
565
00:37:55.825 --> 00:37:58.165
Yeah. Right? And so there there's a very vibrant
566
00:37:59.425 --> 00:38:01.285
community of people who use Teledyntron.
567
00:38:01.825 --> 00:38:03.845
Now which wallets do they use?
568
00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:05.309
Okay.
569
00:38:06.329 --> 00:38:14.265
Right? I mean, they're not gonna use blue wallet because it doesn't have Televin Tron. Right. They're not using the Or Electrum. Using blue. Yeah. So all of those wallets,
570
00:38:14.705 --> 00:38:19.105
kind of, like, and and this is a a little bit of of the problem with,
571
00:38:19.905 --> 00:38:21.685
with the the Bitcoin only
572
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:23.779
thinking is that
573
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.059
it it builds like a separate
574
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:27.940
universe
575
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.059
from,
576
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.220
yeah, from the other universe
577
00:38:32.575 --> 00:38:33.635
that is the crypto
578
00:38:34.015 --> 00:38:36.915
casino. But it's not just a casino. There is a very vibrant
579
00:38:37.375 --> 00:38:39.955
circular economy transaction usage as well. Are they using?
580
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.780
No. They would use something like, like Trust Wallet, for example.
581
00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:51.100
582
00:38:51.464 --> 00:38:55.805
because it has such wide support. It probably also just well, it also support Binance Pay?
583
00:38:56.984 --> 00:38:59.730
584
00:39:00.290 --> 00:39:04.550
a little bit. Okay. My point is that, like, if your first contact with cryptocurrency
585
00:39:05.090 --> 00:39:05.330
is,
586
00:39:06.210 --> 00:39:08.230
with Tether and Tron because,
587
00:39:09.435 --> 00:39:11.215
you know, some guy paid you,
588
00:39:12.315 --> 00:39:13.135
for a
589
00:39:13.435 --> 00:39:15.375
for a gig on a website,
590
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:16.900
that you did,
591
00:39:17.359 --> 00:39:18.500
and you got paid $500,
592
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:34.470
and they were like, I'll pay you in Tether and Tron. Like, okay. Whatever. I'll install the wallet for that. And then there's Bitcoin in there. And so somebody else the next day pay offers to pay them in Bitcoin. And they're like, yeah. Yeah. Sure. I have Bitcoin. No problem. You can pay me a Bitcoin. And then they have Bitcoin and Telenron in their trust wallet.
593
00:39:35.330 --> 00:39:36.390
Right. Right?
594
00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:40.550
Right. Now to convince that person that,
595
00:39:41.075 --> 00:39:44.295
yeah, okay, so you have that wallet, but there's this other wallet,
596
00:39:45.315 --> 00:39:47.255
yeah, to which you can transfer your Bitcoin,
597
00:39:47.635 --> 00:39:49.095
so that you can use lightning.
598
00:39:51.010 --> 00:39:53.589
Right? I mean, I know they're like Right. Why should I,
599
00:39:54.450 --> 00:39:59.270
do that? What is lightning? I don't know what that is. I already have a wallet that works.
600
00:40:00.035 --> 00:40:00.535
Exactly.
601
00:40:01.315 --> 00:40:02.995
Yeah. It works. You know? I can,
602
00:40:04.035 --> 00:40:06.215
I can convert it at my local,
603
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.080
I forget what they call, exchange shops,
604
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:10.980
and,
605
00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:13.060
and
606
00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:16.260
Like, those cash transfer points? Right? Mhmm.
607
00:40:16.865 --> 00:40:20.325
608
00:40:21.105 --> 00:40:22.865
609
00:40:24.385 --> 00:40:25.605
it it's good enough.
610
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:36.565
And and, and so these people never get exposed. I mean, they're again, they they why would they go on Twitter to read about Bitcoin or about Tether or about Tron? Like, right? I mean, it's just a thing.
611
00:40:36.945 --> 00:40:40.244
612
00:40:40.545 --> 00:40:46.089
613
00:40:48.230 --> 00:40:50.890
watch, yeah, like, any of this. They wanna watch this show.
614
00:40:51.385 --> 00:40:54.285
Right. So we don't and we and I think the most important thing
615
00:40:55.145 --> 00:40:55.965
is that,
616
00:40:56.985 --> 00:40:59.885
you know, we go to conferences, we meet a lot of people.
617
00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:02.520
Right? But we never meet
618
00:41:03.060 --> 00:41:05.080
those who only use it as a tool.
619
00:41:05.540 --> 00:41:16.860
And and so it becomes this big blind spot. Right? Because, like, I go to Bitcoin Amsterdam and, like, everyone's like me. That's great. So that means that the whole world is like that. Meh.
620
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:17.820
Incorrect.
621
00:41:18.680 --> 00:41:22.040
Yeah. Right? I mean, it's a little bit again, you go to a classic cars,
622
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.915
conference, and everybody's into classic cars.
623
00:41:25.935 --> 00:41:29.235
And so you should conclude that everybody in the world uses classic cars.
624
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.660
625
00:41:35.600 --> 00:41:39.300
626
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.025
that they exist.
627
00:41:43.005 --> 00:41:48.385
628
00:41:49.180 --> 00:41:54.480
That's what we're currently living in in the Bitcoin. Well, a little bit. I go, Jim. Because, like,
629
00:41:55.100 --> 00:41:56.240
630
00:41:56.780 --> 00:41:59.684
our own thing to some extent. But I think it's important,
631
00:41:59.984 --> 00:42:02.145
like, there's a very good argument for,
632
00:42:02.545 --> 00:42:04.484
for having things be bitcoin only,
633
00:42:04.865 --> 00:42:07.770
for having them, you know, have a small fraction of the volume
634
00:42:08.150 --> 00:42:08.650
of,
635
00:42:10.870 --> 00:42:12.810
of what they could have been if they supported
636
00:42:14.230 --> 00:42:15.770
other coins and so on.
637
00:42:16.505 --> 00:42:20.285
And one can make that argument, but but at least you need to know.
638
00:42:20.664 --> 00:42:21.164
Right?
639
00:42:21.944 --> 00:42:25.270
And, I mean, and it's not just about crypto.
640
00:42:25.730 --> 00:42:27.910
Like, I mean, like, your average,
641
00:42:28.530 --> 00:42:29.030
El
642
00:42:30.050 --> 00:42:30.550
Salvadoran,
643
00:42:32.194 --> 00:42:32.694
who
644
00:42:33.234 --> 00:42:39.095
got a remittance in their Chivo wallet. Like, are they gonna go necessarily do research on,
645
00:42:39.450 --> 00:42:45.630
you know, which Bitcoin wallet should I use, or are they gonna go to the ATM and cash it out for, for dollar bills?
646
00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:48.030
Right.
647
00:42:48.795 --> 00:42:54.734
Right. And and and so, I mean, this is one issue, that I think, like, it's just important to be,
648
00:42:55.194 --> 00:42:55.934
I think,
649
00:42:56.234 --> 00:43:00.470
mindful of. Right? I mean, again, like Coinbase has a 100 +1000000,
650
00:43:01.410 --> 00:43:03.190
KYC verified users.
651
00:43:04.210 --> 00:43:05.375
Like, who are they?
652
00:43:06.495 --> 00:43:09.475
Yeah. Even if we take your estimate that there's 250,000,
653
00:43:10.255 --> 00:43:12.115
of us in the in the Bitcoin community.
654
00:43:13.190 --> 00:43:16.089
Okay. And then we're still short, you know, 109,750,000.
655
00:43:17.990 --> 00:43:19.210
Who are they? Where are they?
656
00:43:19.725 --> 00:43:23.345
We never see them. Right. Right? And and there's also people that that
657
00:43:23.805 --> 00:43:24.445
that huddle,
658
00:43:24.765 --> 00:43:28.225
as a tool. Right? There's a lot of people that just huddle some Bitcoin,
659
00:43:29.130 --> 00:43:31.310
and they don't, you know, follow Twitter.
660
00:43:31.690 --> 00:43:34.190
They maybe at most know somebody who does,
661
00:43:34.890 --> 00:43:37.310
but, or they just bought it on their,
662
00:43:38.555 --> 00:43:39.295
you know,
663
00:43:40.154 --> 00:43:42.414
Charles Schwab account or or whatever,
664
00:43:43.355 --> 00:43:47.214
and they have a number in their stock portfolio that says b to c. And,
665
00:43:47.770 --> 00:43:48.170
you know
666
00:43:48.890 --> 00:43:54.670
667
00:43:54.970 --> 00:43:55.870
multiple times,
668
00:43:56.250 --> 00:44:01.934
both on on the show and on on Twitter. But I searched Bitcoin wallet in in the Play Store,
669
00:44:02.635 --> 00:44:03.934
the Google Play Store,
670
00:44:04.315 --> 00:44:06.984
and the top one is how gonna be different. Doug.
671
00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:09.040
672
00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:11.120
673
00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:17.815
yeah. This is like but I will also say that this Google account that's attached to this Play Store thing is
674
00:44:18.755 --> 00:44:25.900
is pretty much devoid of information as far as as Google goes. Yeah. But then they should have a blank newbie
675
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:26.780
676
00:44:27.080 --> 00:44:29.580
in the US. They know that you're in the US probably.
677
00:44:30.520 --> 00:44:31.980
678
00:44:32.875 --> 00:44:33.375
679
00:44:33.755 --> 00:44:35.135
680
00:44:35.435 --> 00:44:39.375
is the top one. Bitcoin wallet, I don't even know who makes this
681
00:44:39.859 --> 00:44:46.440
by Bitcoin Wallet. It's probably the Shieldbox Wallet. Yeah. It looks like the Shieldback Wallet. That's still pretty high up there. Then then bitcoin.com's
682
00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.160
wallet, then Coinsquare, then Coinbase,
683
00:44:49.465 --> 00:44:51.565
2 times Coinbase, then Trust Wallet,
684
00:44:52.025 --> 00:44:54.925
then Wallace Crypto Wallet, never heard of it, Exodus,
685
00:44:55.225 --> 00:44:56.365
Blockchain dotcom,
686
00:44:57.369 --> 00:44:57.869
Innovin
687
00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:02.109
Solutions, Bitcoin Wallet, then Metamask, which doesn't even support Bitcoin,
688
00:45:02.650 --> 00:45:05.630
then Binance, then Crypto dotcom again, BitPay,
689
00:45:06.214 --> 00:45:06.714
Luno,
690
00:45:07.095 --> 00:45:08.234
Revolut, Robinhood,
691
00:45:09.175 --> 00:45:10.795
Owner, and then BlueWallet.
692
00:45:11.095 --> 00:45:16.540
It's like the first wallet I would recommend out of all of those. Well, the Shellback Wallet is also good. But
693
00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:22.220
Also doesn't support lightning, though, but yeah. I guess BlueRock kinda doesn't either.
694
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:24.540
695
00:45:25.974 --> 00:45:37.770
my point here is that, you know, users are going to, you know, pick 1 of the top 10 that that appeals to them. And, you know, we we can have a conspiracy perspective that, like, Google is corrupted by the shit corners blah blah. But, like, realistically,
696
00:45:38.070 --> 00:45:39.050
there's an AI.
697
00:45:39.510 --> 00:45:45.005
It it checks, you know, for each search phrase, what people click on, and then it just shows people that based on that and
698
00:45:45.484 --> 00:45:50.224
what they installed and so on. And so I don't think that it's, I mean, once Not a conspiracy.
699
00:45:51.085 --> 00:45:55.339
I don't think so. I think it just shows people what what they think that people,
700
00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:57.099
what people want.
701
00:45:59.799 --> 00:46:02.140
702
00:46:02.974 --> 00:46:14.180
I mean, like, Trust Wallet obviously supports, like, every shitcoin under the sun, but they don't support lightning. Part of the issue is that it's just it's hard to develop a mobile Lightning wallet. It's, like, hard to integrate
703
00:46:14.640 --> 00:46:18.055
704
00:46:18.695 --> 00:46:24.215
they earn money for people converting from 1 shit coin to another, and Lightning doesn't have a shit coin. So,
705
00:46:24.660 --> 00:46:27.240
it doesn't add another trading pair for them.
706
00:46:28.660 --> 00:46:37.925
I actually have to think that if Lightning did, have a shitcoin, this is another cursing in church, but, I think if lightning did have a shitcoin, it it would have been bigger than this today.
707
00:46:40.065 --> 00:46:43.860
708
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:44.820
709
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:48.020
So I'm not saying that we should do that, but,
710
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:52.904
711
00:46:54.484 --> 00:46:56.984
712
00:46:58.600 --> 00:46:59.260
I mean,
713
00:46:59.720 --> 00:47:01.340
from the perspective of lightning,
714
00:47:02.120 --> 00:47:03.100
I'm very bullish,
715
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:04.460
obviously.
716
00:47:05.615 --> 00:47:07.555
717
00:47:07.935 --> 00:47:08.435
Continue.
718
00:47:10.095 --> 00:47:11.474
719
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:22.734
No. I I mean, I I think it's, it's good. I mean, we already see that many things in the lightning space, that have stable USD value, like Strike, like Bitcoin Beach,
720
00:47:23.674 --> 00:47:24.494
and some other,
721
00:47:25.595 --> 00:47:27.535
are popular. Right? I mean, there is
722
00:47:29.250 --> 00:47:31.510
a demand for people to to
723
00:47:31.810 --> 00:47:32.630
have their
724
00:47:33.570 --> 00:47:34.070
money
725
00:47:34.370 --> 00:47:41.635
not fluctuate up and down. And that demand, again, for many people, not for everybody, but for many, is is greater than,
726
00:47:42.335 --> 00:47:44.755
the demand for, you know, self custody.
727
00:47:45.455 --> 00:47:54.165
I am a cypherpunk. Nobody can control me. I do what I want. Right? That's a trade off, and and some people choose the former trade off.
728
00:47:55.365 --> 00:47:55.685
And,
729
00:47:56.405 --> 00:48:03.385
so, yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it depends what it looks like, you know, how it works. You know, there's a lot of different,
730
00:48:05.020 --> 00:48:06.720
schemes and ideas
731
00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:08.880
for how to implement
732
00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:11.920
tokens on lightning.
733
00:48:12.725 --> 00:48:14.505
But but also, I mean
734
00:48:15.925 --> 00:48:17.545
and and that's kind of, like,
735
00:48:18.005 --> 00:48:19.385
a big question as well,
736
00:48:20.245 --> 00:48:21.720
which is, like, okay, but
737
00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:23.180
imagine somebody
738
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.500
we're still gonna have a similar problem. Right? Because
739
00:48:28.815 --> 00:48:30.035
some dude receives,
740
00:48:30.495 --> 00:48:30.995
$500
741
00:48:32.335 --> 00:48:34.595
in Tether on lightning, let's say.
742
00:48:35.055 --> 00:48:36.870
And he wants to pay another dude,
743
00:48:37.430 --> 00:48:43.290
$500 in Tether, but that dude only has a Tron wallet. Right? So we still kind of have this
744
00:48:45.380 --> 00:48:45.880
somewhat
745
00:48:47.175 --> 00:48:47.675
strange
746
00:48:48.694 --> 00:48:49.194
gap
747
00:48:49.895 --> 00:48:50.395
here.
748
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:52.619
Personally
749
00:48:54.200 --> 00:48:57.980
and that's the thing is that, again, like, it's a big question.
750
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.265
Like, there's people now talking about how
751
00:49:01.744 --> 00:49:03.204
Bitcoin isn't crypto.
752
00:49:03.744 --> 00:49:08.244
Yeah. Right? Bitcoin is something separate. Like, I mean, that's very obviously not true.
753
00:49:09.330 --> 00:49:12.070
But the question is maybe is it desirable
754
00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:13.990
for Bitcoin to be
755
00:49:14.850 --> 00:49:17.190
something other something entirely separate
756
00:49:17.845 --> 00:49:18.665
from crypto.
757
00:49:18.965 --> 00:49:24.585
Right? I mean, there's a lot of things in the crypto space that, you know, we don't have to go into that, that are
758
00:49:25.045 --> 00:49:26.345
not great, let's say.
759
00:49:27.080 --> 00:49:30.860
And so having a Bitcoin economy that's separate from that
760
00:49:31.240 --> 00:49:32.140
is great in
761
00:49:32.600 --> 00:49:36.724
in in a lot of ways. I mean, we can all feel feel good about ourselves.
762
00:49:37.265 --> 00:49:44.244
Yeah. But that means that a lot of people will still be in the in the crypto circular economy. Right?
763
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:54.385
And and we have to observe another thing is that all stable coins, all major ones, at least to my knowledge, are issued by some kind of crypto exchange.
764
00:49:56.045 --> 00:49:56.545
Right?
765
00:49:57.005 --> 00:50:02.430
766
00:50:03.309 --> 00:50:04.690
Yeah. Holding Donald Trump
767
00:50:04.990 --> 00:50:05.569
768
00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:08.930
It it it comes from that side of the pond.
769
00:50:09.790 --> 00:50:12.369
It's for them, by them. Right?
770
00:50:14.175 --> 00:50:16.435
So stable like we're not going to,
771
00:50:18.575 --> 00:50:20.355
you know, if there is a divorce
772
00:50:20.980 --> 00:50:21.480
between
773
00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:23.319
Bitcoin and crypto,
774
00:50:23.619 --> 00:50:27.160
like, I mean, we're not gonna have sole custody over of stable coins.
775
00:50:28.255 --> 00:50:30.994
That's for sure. And so then the question becomes,
776
00:50:32.175 --> 00:50:36.355
still, like, okay, there will be probably a circular economy
777
00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:38.760
among Stablecoins. There already is
778
00:50:39.620 --> 00:50:41.080
a very vibrant one.
779
00:50:42.660 --> 00:50:43.640
What do we do?
780
00:50:45.785 --> 00:50:47.485
Also, Stablecoins have,
781
00:50:48.505 --> 00:50:52.125
have speculation and gambling and DeFi and all of these things that
782
00:50:52.550 --> 00:50:53.990
even though you and I agree,
783
00:50:54.310 --> 00:50:55.369
they're not not,
784
00:50:55.670 --> 00:50:58.490
785
00:50:59.270 --> 00:51:01.849
786
00:51:02.955 --> 00:51:06.655
Exactly. And so then we have, like, a gambling free
787
00:51:06.955 --> 00:51:07.455
ecosystem.
788
00:51:08.955 --> 00:51:14.260
Like, I think, like, I've been thinking quite a bit about this because, like, in a lot of ways,
789
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:15.680
like
790
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:22.045
so things change in in our industry. Right? And, you know, a lot of things have changed since
791
00:51:22.825 --> 00:51:23.325
2017
792
00:51:23.705 --> 00:51:25.805
or or whatever, like, pivotal moments.
793
00:51:27.190 --> 00:51:29.609
And sometimes, like, stable coins, for example,
794
00:51:30.390 --> 00:51:32.650
came after that, at least in a big way.
795
00:51:34.744 --> 00:51:36.285
And it's important to,
796
00:51:36.825 --> 00:51:37.885
you know, update
797
00:51:39.464 --> 00:51:39.964
your
798
00:51:40.424 --> 00:51:41.790
understanding of the world
799
00:51:42.750 --> 00:51:44.210
as as the
800
00:51:44.590 --> 00:51:45.490
facts change.
801
00:51:45.950 --> 00:51:49.090
Back in the day, it was the case that Bitcoin was the base currency
802
00:51:49.390 --> 00:51:50.690
for the shitcoin economy.
803
00:51:51.235 --> 00:51:51.735
Right?
804
00:51:52.195 --> 00:51:59.975
Bitcoin was the onramp. You had to acquire Bitcoin on a coin based type thing, and then you would transfer that Bitcoin to
805
00:52:02.050 --> 00:52:04.950
what were the Bitcoin exchanges back then? I forget.
806
00:52:07.464 --> 00:52:08.744
Whatever. Right? To to,
807
00:52:09.305 --> 00:52:10.685
buy now. E or
808
00:52:12.345 --> 00:52:18.490
crypsy. Yeah. I was thinking of crypsy. I was thinking of yeah. Crypsy. Yeah. Right. So you would buy They all got rogue. Based Poloniex.
809
00:52:19.190 --> 00:52:23.210
Yeah. I I okay. Yeah. I didn't. But, well, anyway,
810
00:52:25.245 --> 00:52:31.830
so the the case then was you buy Bitcoin, you transfer to cryptocurrency, you you you trade in shitcoins, you withdraw to Bitcoin, and then you have Bitcoin. Right?
811
00:52:32.470 --> 00:52:36.490
And then if you're you're looking to buy something with your Bitcoin, you buy something with your Bitcoin.
812
00:52:38.150 --> 00:52:40.330
Like, also, like, when shitcoins are dumping,
813
00:52:40.805 --> 00:52:45.945
you would see, flight to safety and people are like, shit shit. These coins, they're they're they're not good anymore.
814
00:52:46.965 --> 00:52:50.890
I'm gonna go out and fly to safety. I'm gonna go to Bitcoin. Today,
815
00:52:51.829 --> 00:52:52.329
to
816
00:52:53.109 --> 00:52:55.690
to a very large like, to a bigger and bigger extent,
817
00:52:56.549 --> 00:52:59.985
that is shifting from, from Bitcoin to stable coins.
818
00:53:00.385 --> 00:53:01.765
Right? And so
819
00:53:02.145 --> 00:53:02.645
people
820
00:53:03.265 --> 00:53:08.005
buy so today that equivalent flow is that you buy, you know, you get Stablecoins,
821
00:53:08.809 --> 00:53:10.109
You you put them in your MetaMask,
822
00:53:10.970 --> 00:53:17.549
either your DeFi stuff. And if you want to fly to safety, you you go into a stable coin and and and that's that.
823
00:53:18.125 --> 00:53:19.265
Yeah. Right? So,
824
00:53:20.445 --> 00:53:25.825
and I think in part, this is why, you know, like, try like, if you look at payments per day on Bitcoin,
825
00:53:26.200 --> 00:53:33.820
they're going up, but they're not going back going up that steeply. Right? And so I think what we're seeing is that, like, okay, that kind of speculative
826
00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:35.820
usage is actually shifting
827
00:53:36.795 --> 00:53:42.815
to things like stable coins, but there is also, of course, growth in in everything Bitcoin. And so,
828
00:53:44.235 --> 00:53:46.720
in the end, the chart is, like, you know,
829
00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:48.160
pointing upwards slightly.
830
00:53:49.820 --> 00:53:59.025
831
00:54:00.045 --> 00:54:02.625
Exactly. And then, like, basically, Tether changed the game.
832
00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:09.240
Mhmm. Yeah. And now it's, like, the biggest volume on Binance and whatnot. It's usually in Tether or BUSD
833
00:54:09.540 --> 00:54:11.965
or whatever. Yep. Exactly. So,
834
00:54:12.525 --> 00:54:16.945
835
00:54:18.020 --> 00:54:31.885
836
00:54:32.745 --> 00:54:33.245
837
00:54:34.265 --> 00:54:34.765
So
838
00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:40.319
and so that's kind of the question. Right? I mean, people are always going to gamble,
839
00:54:40.859 --> 00:54:42.240
you said, and
840
00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:47.615
and then okay. And so Bitcoin doesn't allow that because we think it's bad,
841
00:54:48.795 --> 00:54:50.015
and for good reasons.
842
00:54:51.355 --> 00:54:51.855
But,
843
00:54:52.715 --> 00:54:54.335
you know, here we are. Like,
844
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.619
it's it's just a Do you think part of do you think part of that is just because, like,
845
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:04.905
846
00:55:05.205 --> 00:55:11.065
where these centralized stable coins are widespread, but regulators haven't cracked down on them. I mean, the reason Bitcoin exists
847
00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:19.210
is because of the assumption that the state will stop this type of activity from happening. We saw it happen with Liberty Reserve. We saw it happen with so many other
848
00:55:19.705 --> 00:55:23.085
entities that were not, you know, necessarily compliant with US law.
849
00:55:23.465 --> 00:55:28.250
Bitcoin was designed to be robust against that. These these stable coins are not by any means. I mean,
850
00:55:29.290 --> 00:55:31.950
the the people behind Tether deserve props. They've been
851
00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:33.550
essentially, you know,
852
00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:38.765
evading the US for such a long time, but, you gotta imagine that eventually,
853
00:55:39.545 --> 00:55:41.565
like, time is ticking there. No?
854
00:55:42.185 --> 00:55:42.685
855
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:44.580
I don't know.
856
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.380
You know, I don't have any
857
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:48.260
any
858
00:55:48.560 --> 00:55:55.835
859
00:55:56.615 --> 00:56:08.060
that is available to us all and provides value to us all as a tool of last resort. It's a tool that is always there for you when you need it. But if there's a more convenient option for people, they're gonna always take the more convenient option.
860
00:56:08.375 --> 00:56:09.415
861
00:56:10.775 --> 00:56:12.475
I'm a 100% agree.
862
00:56:13.015 --> 00:56:13.755
What if
863
00:56:15.560 --> 00:56:22.300
I mean, I I think it's safe to say, as you described, the stablecoins were not allowed, in a world where there was no Bitcoin.
864
00:56:22.994 --> 00:56:25.414
And I would say that Bitcoin shields the stablecoins
865
00:56:26.035 --> 00:56:26.535
Yeah.
866
00:56:27.394 --> 00:56:30.055
By its by the mere fact that Bitcoin exists.
867
00:56:31.430 --> 00:56:36.570
And and so the the question is, you know, if regulators want to shut down stable coins,
868
00:56:37.430 --> 00:56:39.690
and drive those users to Bitcoin,
869
00:56:40.385 --> 00:56:47.925
which is less controlled and and chaotic. Or if they're like, you know what? Stablecoins are the slightly less evil that live and be.
870
00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:51.580
I don't know. But that's been the attitude for the past,
871
00:56:52.040 --> 00:56:54.380
I don't know, 3, 4 years. Right? So
872
00:56:54.680 --> 00:56:55.900
maybe it's gonna change.
873
00:56:56.385 --> 00:57:00.244
And if it does, I mean, then then I think everything we discuss here is going to,
874
00:57:01.425 --> 00:57:04.085
change in a in a in a very big and
875
00:57:04.865 --> 00:57:07.750
dramatic way. But we don't know. Well, so, like Right?
876
00:57:08.450 --> 00:57:09.830
877
00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:12.790
878
00:57:13.490 --> 00:57:15.670
and it was called the Real Coin.
879
00:57:16.755 --> 00:57:18.214
And I was like, oh, man.
880
00:57:18.674 --> 00:57:25.750
Those guys are gonna gonna get in jail so fast. Like, that was my first, first thought. Right. And, like, yeah, I thought joke
881
00:57:26.230 --> 00:57:36.664
882
00:57:37.605 --> 00:57:42.424
883
00:57:42.910 --> 00:57:47.810
still regardless of that, the scenario where the government say says, like, this is now illegal
884
00:57:48.110 --> 00:57:53.275
885
00:57:53.815 --> 00:57:57.675
I was talking to Dario of, Moon Wallet, and he's Argentinian.
886
00:58:00.310 --> 00:58:04.170
And so, like, they like, people in Argentina love stablecoins.
887
00:58:06.395 --> 00:58:17.940
He knows a lot of just average people that got absolutely wrecked on the Luna collapse. On the on the Terra, they had that stablecoin that was backed by Luna, which is a shitcoin, and the whole thing just
888
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:23.940
collapsed earlier this year. And a lot of people got wrecked on that, and a lot of those people
889
00:58:24.944 --> 00:58:32.405
did not move to a new stable coin. They learned their lesson on that, that it was centralized and now use Bitcoin.
890
00:58:32.970 --> 00:58:36.109
And I wonder if just a lot of this just kind of
891
00:58:36.650 --> 00:58:41.070
like, people will just get burned and then realize the unique value prop of Bitcoin.
892
00:58:41.765 --> 00:58:42.265
893
00:58:43.125 --> 00:58:44.965
But, I mean, you you just,
894
00:58:45.365 --> 00:58:47.705
a minute ago talked about Tether Trooders,
895
00:58:48.244 --> 00:58:50.585
being in the wrong for many years about Tether.
896
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:57.520
897
00:58:57.900 --> 00:59:01.315
898
00:59:01.615 --> 00:59:10.420
my point is that there there are stable coins that are obviously scams, and there are stable coins that are not obviously scams. They might still go away for whatever reason. Right.
899
00:59:11.200 --> 00:59:16.315
But we don't know. And but it, like I mean, it's kind of I think it's it's it's important
900
00:59:16.615 --> 00:59:16.695
when, like,
901
00:59:18.135 --> 00:59:30.390
you know, thinking about the divorce of Bitcoin and crypto. It's like, yeah, who's gonna get the kids? Like, who's gonna get the stable coins? And how? And, like, how do we do we want to have stable coins, and if so, to what extent? And then,
902
00:59:31.255 --> 00:59:35.515
so, then we're gonna be forced to figure out how do we interoperate with the other stablecoins.
903
00:59:36.134 --> 00:59:40.970
904
00:59:41.270 --> 00:59:41.930
on Lightning.
905
00:59:42.950 --> 00:59:45.370
I think the reason Lightning adoption
906
00:59:45.750 --> 00:59:47.690
is as low as it is
907
00:59:48.070 --> 00:59:49.530
is because of,
908
00:59:50.935 --> 00:59:58.315
we take cert everything has trade offs, and we take certain trade offs with Lightning to make sure that it maintains relatively the censorship
909
00:59:58.710 --> 01:00:02.009
resistant properties of Bitcoin that you can settle on chain on Bitcoin.
910
01:00:02.950 --> 01:00:04.890
And as a result, you have
911
01:00:05.670 --> 01:00:07.185
all these complex concepts
912
01:00:07.485 --> 01:00:11.585
that are hard to design around you x wise with liquidity and channel management
913
01:00:12.205 --> 01:00:14.065
and having your note always on.
914
01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:17.950
And as a result, it's really hard to develop for. It's it's more
915
01:00:18.250 --> 01:00:19.550
it's it's less convenient
916
01:00:20.090 --> 01:00:25.975
for the end user to use. The UX is is always a step behind, you know, these these centralized shitcoins.
917
01:00:26.675 --> 01:00:31.655
So to me, like, stablecoins on lightning are this massive distraction because even if we technically,
918
01:00:32.450 --> 01:00:36.150
you know, even if RGB or Taro or whatever it is,
919
01:00:36.450 --> 01:00:39.910
like, is technically able to implement stable coins on lightning,
920
01:00:40.265 --> 01:00:50.660
I have a feeling I'm gonna bring you back on dispatch or I'm gonna go see you present in Riga or something, and you're gonna be like, well, remember how I said that lightning's 4% of transactions?
921
01:00:51.200 --> 01:00:55.295
Well, stable coins on lightning is is a half a percent of transactions,
922
01:01:03.330 --> 01:01:05.990
923
01:01:07.410 --> 01:01:09.190
But then, that leaves us
924
01:01:10.530 --> 01:01:12.790
sort of back to square 1, which is that
925
01:01:13.115 --> 01:01:13.935
how do,
926
01:01:14.635 --> 01:01:16.095
how does the Bitcoin space
927
01:01:18.555 --> 01:01:21.695
relate to stable coins being popular in other chains.
928
01:01:22.289 --> 01:01:24.470
929
01:01:25.089 --> 01:01:28.150
like, the goal should be to make interacting with Bitcoin
930
01:01:28.529 --> 01:01:31.105
as as, you know, easy and
931
01:01:31.505 --> 01:01:35.365
interacting with Bitcoin in a sovereign way as easy, as convenient as possible,
932
01:01:36.785 --> 01:01:38.005
and just understand
933
01:01:38.305 --> 01:01:39.285
that centralized
934
01:01:40.690 --> 01:01:45.330
tokens will always have additional convenience because of the way trade off balances work. And
935
01:01:46.530 --> 01:01:48.710
936
01:01:49.155 --> 01:02:00.670
937
01:02:02.089 --> 01:02:07.724
938
01:02:08.585 --> 01:02:09.085
it's
939
01:02:10.184 --> 01:02:10.765
it's crucial,
940
01:02:11.625 --> 01:02:12.125
that
941
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:16.980
Bitcoin does not become this thing that is entirely dependent
942
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:19.620
on, on centralized regulated exchanges.
943
01:02:20.515 --> 01:02:23.815
Right. And the only the only way to achieve that is,
944
01:02:25.075 --> 01:02:29.895
again, the circular economy. Like, people getting paid, people paying, peer to peer trading,
945
01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:33.560
something as simple as use of wallets.
946
01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:39.755
Right? We need people to use wallets. Yeah. We we need people to to to have a wallet on their phone
947
01:02:40.394 --> 01:02:43.694
and that they have some coins in in case they wanna buy something.
948
01:02:44.555 --> 01:02:45.375
And we
949
01:02:46.154 --> 01:02:48.170
and I I don't believe
950
01:02:48.550 --> 01:02:49.690
in, in
951
01:02:50.070 --> 01:02:58.075
in, you know, like, guilting or moralizing or you should. Otherwise, you're not a good Bitcoiner and, like, that stuff. Like, no. Like, we
952
01:02:58.775 --> 01:03:02.235
we we we should make things that people want to use because they want to use them.
953
01:03:03.815 --> 01:03:05.950
Because we're not going to successfully moralize
954
01:03:06.410 --> 01:03:07.210
millions of,
955
01:03:07.690 --> 01:03:10.030
or even billions of people in the world
956
01:03:10.570 --> 01:03:11.790
into using this stuff.
957
01:03:13.035 --> 01:03:13.535
So
958
01:03:13.835 --> 01:03:15.615
we we need to make all of these things,
959
01:03:16.714 --> 01:03:18.635
bigger and more popular, you know, like,
960
01:03:19.835 --> 01:03:22.415
your basks and things like that.
961
01:03:23.740 --> 01:03:25.120
Because that's I mean,
962
01:03:25.580 --> 01:03:30.995
again, like, different people come to Bitcoin for different visions, but, like, I I came for freedom money and Internet money.
963
01:03:31.555 --> 01:03:36.855
And that's what I'm Right. Passionate about. And I don't think that you can even have
964
01:03:37.235 --> 01:03:40.200
some money without freedom money. Like, I don't think that,
965
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:52.085
a Bitcoin that is, I think Saylor made this argument sometime back that, like, let them regulate it into oblivion, and then the the institution else will come and the price will go to the moon, and then there will be hyperbitcoinization.
966
01:03:52.625 --> 01:03:55.525
And then every other problem will magically fix themselves.
967
01:03:55.825 --> 01:03:58.085
968
01:03:59.390 --> 01:04:03.569
Yeah. I mean, so the way I look at it, and I wonder if you agree, is is
969
01:04:03.869 --> 01:04:09.725
is I came out of firm an argument of why people should care about financial privacy. And I said,
970
01:04:10.425 --> 01:04:11.405
without privacy,
971
01:04:12.585 --> 01:04:20.660
which is not anonymity. Privacy is is the ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world. Without privacy, you cannot have freedom, because if you don't have privacy,
972
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:22.500
then someone can use
973
01:04:22.905 --> 01:04:26.205
your information against you to to take away your freedom.
974
01:04:26.505 --> 01:04:29.565
And then without freedom, you can't ever be wealthy.
975
01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:39.460
Because if if you don't have freedom, then it's not really your wealth. They can just take away your wealth. So you need privacy to have freedom, and you need freedom to be wealthy. So the whole thing is all interconnected.
976
01:04:40.225 --> 01:04:40.725
977
01:04:41.185 --> 01:04:42.725
Which is which is why
978
01:04:43.025 --> 01:04:44.885
you in particular are such an important,
979
01:04:45.345 --> 01:04:48.005
voice, in in the Bitcoin space,
980
01:04:48.359 --> 01:04:50.140
because you always talk about this stuff.
981
01:04:50.680 --> 01:04:51.160
And,
982
01:04:51.640 --> 01:04:52.780
you can't have,
983
01:04:53.560 --> 01:04:55.099
again, like, you can't have,
984
01:04:55.640 --> 01:04:56.140
like,
985
01:04:56.520 --> 01:04:59.355
I mean, privacy, if we talk about that, like,
986
01:04:59.734 --> 01:05:02.315
people who care about privacy are people who make transactions.
987
01:05:03.255 --> 01:05:05.355
Right? And people who don't make transactions,
988
01:05:05.815 --> 01:05:06.940
do not particularly
989
01:05:07.640 --> 01:05:08.780
care about privacy.
990
01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:12.620
And there's 2 kinds of privacy. Right? There is the
991
01:05:13.160 --> 01:05:15.340
coin join type privacy
992
01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:17.964
of on chain. And then there is
993
01:05:18.744 --> 01:05:21.484
the privacy aspect that, you know, there are ways,
994
01:05:21.944 --> 01:05:23.005
for me to,
995
01:05:23.545 --> 01:05:24.960
to do things with my Bitcoin
996
01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:26.480
that don't require
997
01:05:26.780 --> 01:05:27.280
full,
998
01:05:28.620 --> 01:05:29.120
full
999
01:05:29.740 --> 01:05:43.585
account verification and all of that. Right. KYC. Which is not That's one of the things I love about Bitrefill is that I can just buy these gift cards without Yeah. Well, we without KYC. We we try. You know? We we we we try to to enable as much as we can, with as much privacy as,
1000
01:05:44.190 --> 01:05:46.850
we can. But that's a, you know, constant battle.
1001
01:05:51.070 --> 01:05:59.585
But, yeah, I mean, that's the stuff that's important. And, I mean, it it can't just be the refill. Right? I mean, if it is, then we're just gonna get shut down. Like, there needs to be
1002
01:06:00.180 --> 01:06:10.395
a very big and vibrant economy. And so the question is, how do we, how do we get it to grow? I mean, this is in part, like, why I'm sharing all of our data and so on that, you know,
1003
01:06:10.935 --> 01:06:15.915
someone would say, oh, that's trade secrets. You know? But, like, yeah. But I I wish there were,
1004
01:06:16.535 --> 01:06:17.035
more
1005
01:06:17.510 --> 01:06:34.675
competitors, but I also wish that there were a lot more and bigger and better complimentary services out there. Right? I I want But otherwise, you get crushed. Otherwise, you're just a centralized actor that can get crushed. Yeah. And otherwise, this is completely uninteresting, like, frankly. Like like I said in the beginning, like, I'm not done.
1006
01:06:35.530 --> 01:06:40.089
Yeah. I don't think we're done, the Bitcoiners. And and so I don't,
1007
01:06:40.970 --> 01:06:42.030
you know, I don't
1008
01:06:43.185 --> 01:06:45.685
like the thought leaders that say that it's all preordained,
1009
01:06:46.465 --> 01:06:46.965
and
1010
01:06:47.905 --> 01:06:51.045
we don't need to do anything. We can just sit and Huddl, and
1011
01:06:51.859 --> 01:07:03.345
1012
01:07:03.965 --> 01:07:07.585
and I think that's still the case, but it used to be a higher percentage.
1013
01:07:08.090 --> 01:07:11.950
Now it's now the the percentage is skewed. The absolute number
1014
01:07:12.250 --> 01:07:21.635
is is still higher of Bitcoiners that are internally critical and want want to seek improvement and are talking about the hard things. But percentage wise,
1015
01:07:22.415 --> 01:07:26.195
particularly if you start to talk about platforms, like, the people that have the largest audiences.
1016
01:07:26.640 --> 01:07:32.180
Yep. Are and I I talk about this a lot. I mean, at the end of the day, this is a movement of personal responsibility.
1017
01:07:33.200 --> 01:07:33.700
And
1018
01:07:34.575 --> 01:07:46.640
people are groomed not to practice personal responsibility in their day to day lives. Like, people have everything taken care of for them by society all the time. Sure. So as a result, like, the influence influencers
1019
01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:47.440
who
1020
01:07:47.980 --> 01:07:51.440
who who tell people that they don't have to take personal responsibility
1021
01:07:52.299 --> 01:07:52.799
naturally
1022
01:07:53.725 --> 01:08:01.680
get better engagement. They perform better because that's what people wanna hear. People wanna hear something easy. They don't wanna hear a hard path. They don't wanna hear any kind of
1023
01:08:02.319 --> 01:08:03.940
nuance or anything like that.
1024
01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:04.880
1025
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:08.740
And the the easiest thing is you're you're all gonna be rich.
1026
01:08:09.355 --> 01:08:10.575
Yeah. And,
1027
01:08:11.035 --> 01:08:17.435
and it's gonna go up forever. Yeah. And, there is no number 2, and, all of these things. It's just,
1028
01:08:18.570 --> 01:08:20.330
just punch Well, I do think on Sailor. But
1029
01:08:21.290 --> 01:08:25.150
gonna go up I think so. I think so as well. But as you said,
1030
01:08:26.175 --> 01:08:29.474
I mean, it clearly you know, like, let's say when he gets liquidated.
1031
01:08:30.974 --> 01:08:31.474
But,
1032
01:08:32.415 --> 01:08:45.995
I mean Well, he broke rule number 1, which is don't fuck around with leverage, but that's a whole different thing. Exactly. Exactly. And and I used to that's the thing. It it is that, again, like, when people say that, you know, Bitcoin is separate from crypto.
1033
01:08:47.195 --> 01:08:49.195
Yeah. Well, okay. Well, our biggest,
1034
01:08:50.315 --> 01:08:53.615
influencer is, like, massively leveraged, on Bitcoin
1035
01:08:54.470 --> 01:08:59.690
and encourages people to leverage their house and and so on. Like, you know, I mean, there are a lot of
1036
01:08:59.990 --> 01:09:04.375
values that overlap. Let me let me tell you, Anik, that, actually, I was Let me.
1037
01:09:04.855 --> 01:09:10.795
So the 1st Bitcoin conference that I attended, in my life, was a Bitcoin conference in Amsterdam in 2014.
1038
01:09:11.390 --> 01:09:11.890
And
1039
01:09:13.070 --> 01:09:19.490
recently, I I I don't know. I was feeling nostalgic, and so I I looked I found,
1040
01:09:20.430 --> 01:09:29.235
the event page somewhere. I don't know if it's still I couldn't find it later, but I'm sure it's in the Internet archive. I think it's up because someone showed it to me when I was in Amsterdam.
1041
01:09:29.550 --> 01:09:36.130
Yeah. Yeah. And so if you look at it, and you look at the people, and, like, some of them we don't know anymore, but, like, a lot of them,
1042
01:09:36.670 --> 01:09:42.095
I would say a vast majority of them are people who today we would call the crypto industry.
1043
01:09:42.875 --> 01:09:43.835
Right. Right?
1044
01:09:44.315 --> 01:09:47.135
So a lot of them are people that then became the shitcoiners.
1045
01:09:47.650 --> 01:09:58.344
Yeah. And it kind of evolved. Right? I mean, the crypto came out of, of Bitcoin. Like, we we birthed it. And not just we, like our, at the time, top influencers,
1046
01:09:59.685 --> 01:10:15.824
built it. Right? And then again, like, as we already said, like, as subcult as subcultures grow, then they form sub subcultures, and it keeps going like that. And Yeah. I mean, like, you talked about, like, Bitcoin not Bitcoin's not crypto. Like, maybe it just shows my age,
1047
01:10:16.925 --> 01:10:24.430
1048
01:10:25.710 --> 01:10:29.730
is is, you know, in a in a weird roundabout way, like,
1049
01:10:30.350 --> 01:10:32.210
Ethereum is like a Bitcoin app.
1050
01:10:34.094 --> 01:10:53.395
1051
01:10:54.094 --> 01:10:57.474
And it's still the case that, you know, Bitcoin is bigger than crypto.
1052
01:10:58.660 --> 01:10:59.640
At the same time,
1053
01:11:00.180 --> 01:11:01.240
again, like,
1054
01:11:02.340 --> 01:11:08.335
like, the world changes. And so now we're seeing that, you know, the crypto industry again is, like,
1055
01:11:08.795 --> 01:11:09.775
sort of replacing
1056
01:11:10.235 --> 01:11:13.775
Bitcoin as store value minimum exchange, as the money, basically,
1057
01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:19.270
of the industry and replacing it with with stable coins and to to a lesser extent, it's
1058
01:11:20.150 --> 01:11:20.650
and,
1059
01:11:21.350 --> 01:11:24.574
and and we see results of that. Like, I mean, the biggest
1060
01:11:24.954 --> 01:11:27.454
biggest wallet in the world is MetaMask,
1061
01:11:28.074 --> 01:11:30.335
and MetaMask does not support Bitcoin.
1062
01:11:30.870 --> 01:11:31.590
Right? So,
1063
01:11:31.989 --> 01:11:50.034
and and that's, like, a very clear sign of the divorce coming from the other side. Right? That's like, you know, we built this thing and, like, we didn't even bother to add Bitcoin because it's, you know, it's not Trust wallet doesn't support lightning and MetaMask. Yeah. You know. Doesn't support big conspiracy. It's just it's just not a priority.
1064
01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:58.980
Yeah. Right? Again, like, it's not like the these people are like, oh, we hate Bitcoin. We want it to disappear or anything like that. Like, the shit corners love Bitcoin.
1065
01:11:59.395 --> 01:12:01.735
It's just, you know, it's not been a
1066
01:12:02.435 --> 01:12:10.500
priority for them. They have the product road map and the things that give them their their business goals that they're trying to achieve, and so they haven't gotten to that yet.
1067
01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:14.340
But it but it shows that, that industry is now rebasing
1068
01:12:15.665 --> 01:12:17.204
gradually, but more and more,
1069
01:12:17.744 --> 01:12:18.804
off from,
1070
01:12:19.425 --> 01:12:21.045
from Bitcoin and onto,
1071
01:12:21.585 --> 01:12:23.125
stable coins on,
1072
01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:25.340
on EVM based chains,
1073
01:12:25.640 --> 01:12:26.140
basically.
1074
01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:27.340
Yeah.
1075
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:29.100
And and so
1076
01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:33.675
at some point, maybe it's no longer the case that crypto is,
1077
01:12:34.295 --> 01:12:37.195
the underbelly of the Bitcoin industry and that it becomes
1078
01:12:37.574 --> 01:12:39.835
somewhat I mean, it's it's messy. Right?
1079
01:12:40.770 --> 01:12:43.510
Is is crypto part of it? I don't know. Maybe.
1080
01:12:46.050 --> 01:12:57.965
1081
01:12:58.440 --> 01:13:02.300
Yeah. And maybe that's enough. The question is how do you convey that message?
1082
01:13:04.360 --> 01:13:05.980
1083
01:13:08.625 --> 01:13:10.025
I mean, I think,
1084
01:13:11.365 --> 01:13:16.825
I mean, all of us do. Right? If a friend asks, like, hey. Which crypto should I buy? And I get by Bitcoin, and
1085
01:13:17.750 --> 01:13:18.730
and that's enough.
1086
01:13:20.870 --> 01:13:22.890
But, again, like, you know, like,
1087
01:13:23.910 --> 01:13:25.130
you know, like, they
1088
01:13:26.155 --> 01:13:28.255
they are, to some extent, moving on.
1089
01:13:29.195 --> 01:13:35.120
Yeah. They they they move to another town. Yeah. Right? I mean, they they don't, they use Bitcoin less.
1090
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:44.660
They use other things instead. Yeah. They still use Bitcoin to some extent, but less. But so Yeah. Like, I'm gonna pull up a chart on the screen for, like, the people that are watching.
1091
01:13:45.575 --> 01:13:51.195
1092
01:13:51.975 --> 01:13:53.275
like, the left side
1093
01:13:53.630 --> 01:14:00.530
is what you believe, which is that there's this massive crypto industry where, like, Bitcoin is a small part of that industry,
1094
01:14:01.035 --> 01:14:06.815
when the reality is that that, you know, there's Bitcoin and then there's everything else
1095
01:14:07.275 --> 01:14:07.775
that's
1096
01:14:08.270 --> 01:14:17.205
doing trying to accomplish completely different goals that is ripe with Ponzi schemes, that's ripe with scams, that's ripe with, you know, poor trade offs that aren't disclosed
1097
01:14:17.585 --> 01:14:18.245
to users.
1098
01:14:19.825 --> 01:14:24.225
Like, what do you think when you see this chart? Do would you be Well, it contradicts what you just said,
1099
01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:33.925
and, I would say that, you know, the reality Well, I would just put the little crypto circle. I'll put the little crypto circle, like, inside of the Bitcoin circle, if I was gonna
1100
01:14:34.305 --> 01:14:47.060
1101
01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:50.340
I think another data point, I guess that
1102
01:14:50.685 --> 01:14:52.945
made me think about these things. So
1103
01:14:53.324 --> 01:14:57.505
if we zoom out, like, I mean, I think as late as 3 years ago,
1104
01:14:58.170 --> 01:14:58.670
if
1105
01:14:59.610 --> 01:15:01.150
you ask me, like, you know,
1106
01:15:01.770 --> 01:15:09.005
which coins do people use to pay on the trade flow, Then I would be like, ah, it's 90% Bitcoin and 10% everything else.
1107
01:15:09.465 --> 01:15:13.565
Yeah. Right? So, I mean, this isn't 2017. This is, like, 2019,
1108
01:15:14.185 --> 01:15:16.990
or so. So up until very recently,
1109
01:15:17.770 --> 01:15:19.610
it was the case, that,
1110
01:15:20.410 --> 01:15:21.550
you you know, this was correlated
1111
01:15:22.170 --> 01:15:29.275
well with Google Trends. And so, yeah, Bitcoin is much bigger than crypto. Whereas today today, you know, crypto is, like,
1112
01:15:29.815 --> 01:15:30.795
60, 65%
1113
01:15:33.280 --> 01:15:39.219
of it, which also, like, I think it's coincidental, but, like, it overlaps somewhat with the Bitcoin dominance,
1114
01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:52.340
charts, which we know are inflated and and and bullshit and so on. But even though bullshit, Bitcoin's still, like, 50% on that or 60% on that. No? No. No. No. It's 40 something. Yeah. Okay.
1115
01:15:52.719 --> 01:15:53.219
So,
1116
01:15:53.840 --> 01:15:59.139
and what's interesting, I think, in in this day and age, with the fall of,
1117
01:15:59.600 --> 01:16:05.075
FDX and, and Terra and all these things is that it's not going up. It used to be,
1118
01:16:05.715 --> 01:16:09.015
the case that in a bear market, Bitcoin dominance goes up.
1119
01:16:09.590 --> 01:16:11.290
We might be calling that early.
1120
01:16:12.630 --> 01:16:17.530
1121
01:16:18.855 --> 01:16:21.255
1122
01:16:21.655 --> 01:16:23.835
1123
01:16:24.454 --> 01:16:24.954
Sergei?
1124
01:16:27.360 --> 01:16:29.699
1125
01:16:30.639 --> 01:16:31.380
but still,
1126
01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:32.659
you know,
1127
01:16:33.175 --> 01:16:38.955
now there here's an here's another, I guess, mental model and I'm actually interested in in your thoughts.
1128
01:16:40.135 --> 01:17:16.180
So when when arguing values, right, values in themselves are are usually not interesting. They're only interesting when you put them against each other. Right? So do you want freedom and prosperity? Yes. Yeah. But if you can only have 1, right, if you have to choose, like, 1 unit of freedom or 1 unit of prosperity, then it becomes a values question. Right? And, in the in the Bitcoin space, we we have the value that we want Bitcoin up. Right? Whatever up means. More users, higher price, whatever. Right? We also want shitcoins we want shitcoins down. Right? And let's say you get this. Right? We want both these things.
1129
01:17:16.740 --> 01:17:18.840
But but an interesting question is,
1130
01:17:19.300 --> 01:17:24.600
okay, but what if we put them against each other? Because there are situations in which we have to choose.
1131
01:17:25.175 --> 01:17:27.915
Do we want Bitcoin up but also should go on up?
1132
01:17:28.454 --> 01:17:31.675
Or do we want should go down but also Bitcoin down?
1133
01:17:33.230 --> 01:17:36.770
1134
01:17:37.310 --> 01:17:38.690
I would choose up up.
1135
01:17:39.405 --> 01:17:42.705
1136
01:17:44.125 --> 01:17:47.185
1137
01:17:48.040 --> 01:17:51.340
1138
01:17:52.280 --> 01:17:54.460
Given how people are sort of cheering,
1139
01:17:55.000 --> 01:17:56.380
the the shit coin apocalypse,
1140
01:17:56.715 --> 01:18:01.455
And, I mean, it is fun. Yeah. But at the same time, it's clearly causing Bitcoin down.
1141
01:18:02.075 --> 01:18:02.575
Right?
1142
01:18:03.275 --> 01:18:04.600
At least in the short term.
1143
01:18:05.560 --> 01:18:06.060
And,
1144
01:18:07.480 --> 01:18:10.920
and so and and that's sort of, also, like, in a
1145
01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:19.645
I think, sort of important to to ask, you know, in in your heart of hearts. Like, I don't even know to be honest, like, I mean, I I have this,
1146
01:18:20.525 --> 01:18:21.265
an artistic
1147
01:18:21.739 --> 01:18:22.239
pyromaniac
1148
01:18:22.620 --> 01:18:26.560
thing where, like, stuff's burning. It's interesting even if it's my house.
1149
01:18:27.020 --> 01:18:40.010
Yeah. Like, I mean, like, watching FDX and all of that stuff. No. We we all like chaos. We all if you've been in Bitcoin for a long enough time, you're a little bit of a massive I think so. I think we're I think we're chaotic good,
1150
01:18:40.409 --> 01:18:40.909
as,
1151
01:18:41.929 --> 01:18:42.750
as characters.
1152
01:18:44.250 --> 01:18:44.750
So,
1153
01:18:46.785 --> 01:18:50.385
I don't even know. It's just like a I guess something to,
1154
01:18:50.785 --> 01:18:54.145
to reflect on on on where Well, the way I look at it land and
1155
01:18:55.060 --> 01:19:02.360
1156
01:19:03.324 --> 01:19:04.784
Bitcoin brings in
1157
01:19:05.324 --> 01:19:05.824
global
1158
01:19:06.125 --> 01:19:06.625
permissionless
1159
01:19:07.005 --> 01:19:07.505
finance.
1160
01:19:08.445 --> 01:19:13.307
It's the base of this global permissionless finance world. And as a result,
1161
01:19:13.881 --> 01:19:21.010
people love gambling. People love printing their own money. So if Bitcoin succeeds, shitcoins will always exist.
1162
01:19:22.114 --> 01:19:25.895
I think so too. In my mind because you can't stop someone from doing it.
1163
01:19:26.275 --> 01:19:26.775
1164
01:19:27.315 --> 01:19:28.275
Exactly. I mean,
1165
01:19:29.315 --> 01:19:29.815
and,
1166
01:19:31.610 --> 01:19:35.070
yeah. Like, I mean, if you look at, for example,
1167
01:19:36.490 --> 01:19:39.870
other examples when people suddenly got financial freedom,
1168
01:19:40.575 --> 01:19:43.955
in in the history of the world, like, for example, the collapse of the Soviet Union.
1169
01:19:44.655 --> 01:19:47.235
What's the first thing that they do with their financial freedom?
1170
01:19:48.030 --> 01:19:49.090
MLM Screens.
1171
01:19:49.710 --> 01:19:58.414
Scam and be scammed. Right? And and we've seen this over we've seen this in the Bitcoin space as well. Like, there was a massive boom in Bolivia, like, 5 years ago,
1172
01:19:58.795 --> 01:20:16.425
where suddenly, like, all metric, like, Bolivia, Bolivia, what the hell is going on in Bolivia? They're like, oh, okay. There's a massive Ponzi scheme that's Yeah. Like, plus the word Bitcoin. Big one lately. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean so, I mean, people do that and the I don't know. I mean, I think that for me, I have sort of
1173
01:20:16.885 --> 01:20:19.065
come to terms with that
1174
01:20:19.550 --> 01:20:21.570
the good that Bitcoin brings
1175
01:20:21.950 --> 01:20:22.450
outweighs
1176
01:20:23.150 --> 01:20:25.010
the bad that it also brings.
1177
01:20:25.470 --> 01:20:26.530
And that maybe
1178
01:20:27.225 --> 01:20:29.725
the world just needs to develop,
1179
01:20:31.945 --> 01:20:33.565
like, a intuitive understanding
1180
01:20:33.945 --> 01:20:35.005
that, you know,
1181
01:20:35.385 --> 01:20:37.150
if it's too good to be true
1182
01:20:37.770 --> 01:20:38.590
type reasoning
1183
01:20:38.890 --> 01:20:44.190
or, you know, where I guess recently we've learned where there's a reward, there is risk.
1184
01:20:44.915 --> 01:20:46.434
Right. It's it's a it's a big,
1185
01:20:47.074 --> 01:20:47.574
recent,
1186
01:20:47.954 --> 01:20:50.454
learning for a lot of people, and that maybe eventually,
1187
01:20:51.235 --> 01:20:52.695
we we get to,
1188
01:20:55.970 --> 01:20:58.150
we we get to a point where these things
1189
01:20:58.530 --> 01:21:06.855
stabilize. But, yeah, I mean, we we are going to have shit coins. At the very least, you know, the the shit coins that are just stocks. Right? Yeah. Those that,
1190
01:21:07.574 --> 01:21:09.175
that really only scam,
1191
01:21:10.050 --> 01:21:12.230
the the American SSE or similar
1192
01:21:12.610 --> 01:21:13.110
regulators,
1193
01:21:14.130 --> 01:21:14.870
with their,
1194
01:21:15.570 --> 01:21:16.790
unregistered securities.
1195
01:21:17.485 --> 01:21:22.225
But other than that, conduct business in a in in a in an ethical,
1196
01:21:22.765 --> 01:21:26.065
way without lying misleading. Like, you can imagine that.
1197
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:31.300
And, I think that that's part of Bitcoin vision to some extent. So,
1198
01:21:32.160 --> 01:21:33.485
that too, by the way.
1199
01:21:34.284 --> 01:21:36.385
That means that we're going to have tokens.
1200
01:21:37.725 --> 01:21:44.840
Yeah. Right? And so that may how are they going be transferred? Are they going to be transferred over Lightning, or are they going to be transferred,
1201
01:21:45.300 --> 01:21:45.800
over,
1202
01:21:46.820 --> 01:21:51.535
600 different EVM chains or something else that we don't know yet.
1203
01:21:51.955 --> 01:21:54.215
How is Bitcoin going to interact with that?
1204
01:21:55.955 --> 01:21:56.455
1205
01:21:58.820 --> 01:22:04.760
I mean, I think, like I mean, so there's another popular I think every good meme is based in reality,
1206
01:22:05.825 --> 01:22:08.085
and that's why they're viral in the first place.
1207
01:22:08.385 --> 01:22:11.365
And, you know, a big a big meme or
1208
01:22:11.825 --> 01:22:16.010
culture point in Bitcoin is this idea of low time preference, long term thinking.
1209
01:22:16.710 --> 01:22:19.850
And, you know, a lot of the trade offs that Bitcoin has made
1210
01:22:21.855 --> 01:22:32.970
through its short history has been with a long term lens on. You know, you never really know how much censorship resistance is enough censorship resistance until your chain is completely captured and done.
1211
01:22:33.830 --> 01:22:44.975
So so Bitcoin has kind of gone to the extreme on that, which I appreciate, and I think it makes it, you know, very robust. And the government is trolling us by not going after the less centralized ones.
1212
01:22:45.435 --> 01:22:48.094
Wait. So that's the question. Right? So the question is, like,
1213
01:22:48.940 --> 01:22:50.719
there there's a scenario where
1214
01:22:51.260 --> 01:22:56.639
where we're wrong and or maybe just the fact that Bitcoin exists means that
1215
01:22:57.205 --> 01:22:59.145
centralized, less censorship resistant
1216
01:22:59.445 --> 01:23:01.145
things are able to survive.
1217
01:23:01.925 --> 01:23:06.940
But, I mean, the big elephant in the room is is pretty much Ethereum. And I do wonder,
1218
01:23:07.800 --> 01:23:08.540
you know,
1219
01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:14.300
the the thesis I've been running on for however many years and I continue to run on is that eventually,
1220
01:23:16.185 --> 01:23:23.245
I I mean, I think Ethereum is being captured currently. I mean, I think there's attempts to try and capture Bitcoin as well that are less successful, but
1221
01:23:24.450 --> 01:23:30.550
that Ethereum is being captured currently, and it will become it will become apparent to people at some point in the future.
1222
01:23:30.850 --> 01:23:31.590
I'm not gonna
1223
01:23:31.890 --> 01:23:33.350
pick any dates, but
1224
01:23:34.565 --> 01:23:46.330
if if if, you know, what does Safe say? Safe is like Ethereum is the is the mother asshole of all shitcoins birthed from. Right? Yeah. And I wonder if established it was actually Bitcoin.
1225
01:23:47.190 --> 01:23:48.810
1226
01:23:49.270 --> 01:23:52.490
1227
01:23:53.265 --> 01:23:57.364
sold from? Right? You had to use Bitcoin to buy into Ethereum in the first place.
1228
01:23:58.784 --> 01:24:01.844
Like, Ethereum was originally priced in sads. But
1229
01:24:02.620 --> 01:24:05.600
1230
01:24:06.540 --> 01:24:16.075
1231
01:24:17.015 --> 01:24:22.220
cameras on their front door, is that people will get burned over time and seek out better alternatives.
1232
01:24:22.840 --> 01:24:23.740
In the financial
1233
01:24:24.600 --> 01:24:26.140
scene, I think that's Bitcoin.
1234
01:24:28.365 --> 01:24:38.510
1235
01:24:39.850 --> 01:24:40.350
BitTorrent
1236
01:24:40.730 --> 01:24:43.150
is the reason why we have Spotify and Netflix.
1237
01:24:44.489 --> 01:24:45.469
Right? Right.
1238
01:24:46.235 --> 01:24:48.574
So if there was no BitTorrent,
1239
01:24:48.954 --> 01:24:56.800
then no way that the rights holders would agree to having a streaming app, whatever. Right? Except that now by scaring them.
1240
01:24:57.660 --> 01:24:59.280
1241
01:24:59.580 --> 01:25:00.780
Like, I like, I was
1242
01:25:01.555 --> 01:25:04.695
I may or may not have been a frequent BitTorrent user
1243
01:25:05.075 --> 01:25:14.270
before Netflix existed, and then Netflix gave me a convenient way to not be a BitTorrent user. And now there's so many streaming platforms
1244
01:25:14.570 --> 01:25:15.470
that are all
1245
01:25:15.850 --> 01:25:16.990
broken up and bifurcated
1246
01:25:17.370 --> 01:25:26.395
and stuff, and there's so much less convenience there. And I don't know what login is what login and yada yada yada. And now I'm back to being a theoretical BitTorrent user again.
1247
01:25:26.770 --> 01:25:30.950
1248
01:25:31.490 --> 01:25:32.870
But yeah. I mean, maybe.
1249
01:25:33.490 --> 01:25:34.150
Who knows?
1250
01:25:35.455 --> 01:25:42.195
But, it's also again, okay, sure about how how low time preference do you want to have. Right? I mean, at some point,
1251
01:25:42.920 --> 01:25:44.360
at a on a long enough,
1252
01:25:44.760 --> 01:25:48.300
time scale, we're all gonna be dead. Yeah. Right. So,
1253
01:25:48.920 --> 01:25:54.454
I don't know. I mean, it it it might be like that. It might be the the other way. I mean, it might be,
1254
01:25:55.474 --> 01:25:56.695
that, you know,
1255
01:25:57.554 --> 01:25:58.215
the government,
1256
01:25:58.994 --> 01:26:01.270
maybe the US one just captures,
1257
01:26:02.450 --> 01:26:04.470
captures a thing. I mean, they
1258
01:26:04.850 --> 01:26:11.835
they kind of control the USDC already and via that Ethereum, and then maybe that's the c CWC.
1259
01:26:13.094 --> 01:26:15.735
And then, we're done. And then that is
1260
01:26:16.460 --> 01:26:19.840
like, I always thought that Bitcoin would have, like, one final nemesis.
1261
01:26:20.300 --> 01:26:23.475
You know? Like, the the one, like, in games, like, the last boss,
1262
01:26:24.115 --> 01:26:27.495
that that it has to fight against The final boss. Against Augustine Karstens.
1263
01:26:29.395 --> 01:26:35.630
1264
01:26:36.170 --> 01:26:42.925
1265
01:26:44.025 --> 01:26:45.165
on, like, a section,
1266
01:26:45.465 --> 01:26:46.105
of the game,
1267
01:26:47.040 --> 01:26:50.739
whereas the final boss is, like, some small insignificant that has some
1268
01:26:51.119 --> 01:26:52.820
magical powers and just
1269
01:26:53.360 --> 01:26:53.860
anyway.
1270
01:26:55.475 --> 01:26:57.015
Well, let's pivot for a second,
1271
01:26:57.475 --> 01:27:14.335
1272
01:27:15.215 --> 01:27:21.420
And we had a we had a conversation for, like, 12 minutes that has stuck with me since then, and and that was on multisig.
1273
01:27:22.440 --> 01:27:23.340
1274
01:27:24.200 --> 01:27:26.460
1275
01:27:27.365 --> 01:27:28.025
Do you
1276
01:27:28.485 --> 01:27:29.945
remain bearish on multisig?
1277
01:27:31.125 --> 01:27:32.425
1278
01:27:33.125 --> 01:27:37.340
1279
01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:44.060
really Mhmm. Like, there there'll be a niche where people like, I I assume you believe that it's very useful for organizations and whatnot.
1280
01:27:44.995 --> 01:27:45.495
Right.
1281
01:27:45.875 --> 01:27:53.255
And But, like, you were kinda coming at it from the at that point, like, it was one of the things that we were, like, kind of hyping really hard within the
1282
01:27:53.640 --> 01:27:58.780
hardcore Bitcoin community, which was that everyone was gonna be moving to multisig for self sovereign storage.
1283
01:27:59.560 --> 01:28:00.060
1284
01:28:00.735 --> 01:28:02.035
Yeah. Well, I mean,
1285
01:28:02.735 --> 01:28:07.635
it's a good question. I mean, I think multisig is a good tool. Is it for everyone? I'm not sure.
1286
01:28:08.080 --> 01:28:08.239
Yeah.
1287
01:28:09.040 --> 01:28:10.080
I think in,
1288
01:28:11.119 --> 01:28:11.619
like,
1289
01:28:12.159 --> 01:28:12.480
sometimes,
1290
01:28:13.599 --> 01:28:16.820
we in the Bitcoin community score on goals.
1291
01:28:17.695 --> 01:28:18.135
Right?
1292
01:28:18.575 --> 01:28:20.595
And one of the ways is that we,
1293
01:28:21.055 --> 01:28:22.195
we scare people.
1294
01:28:22.655 --> 01:28:23.155
So,
1295
01:28:24.575 --> 01:28:26.080
so I I guess, like,
1296
01:28:26.460 --> 01:28:30.240
that, you know, hey. Phone wallet is not secure, so you should,
1297
01:28:31.020 --> 01:28:32.320
you should use multisig.
1298
01:28:32.765 --> 01:28:33.265
But,
1299
01:28:33.645 --> 01:28:46.989
1300
01:28:47.530 --> 01:28:48.830
1301
01:28:49.290 --> 01:28:49.790
how,
1302
01:28:51.215 --> 01:28:52.275
how many people,
1303
01:28:54.415 --> 01:28:59.160
lost, I mean, first of all, I think we can agree that, like, the simplest,
1304
01:28:59.940 --> 01:29:01.800
mobile wallet on the crappiest,
1305
01:29:02.820 --> 01:29:03.320
device,
1306
01:29:04.260 --> 01:29:10.215
is still going to be more secure than keeping your coins, on an exchange with usernames and passwords,
1307
01:29:10.995 --> 01:29:11.815
even disregarding
1308
01:29:12.195 --> 01:29:12.935
the element
1309
01:29:13.350 --> 01:29:14.250
of the exchange,
1310
01:29:14.869 --> 01:29:24.525
rugging you, and just looking at that. You know, your email will get compromised, and somebody will log in to your exchange to withdraw your coins. Right? So even the the the the dumbest wallets,
1311
01:29:25.065 --> 01:29:33.780
in in the dumbest setup, you know, take a screenshot of your seed phrase and and store it in your photos. Like, that's more secure than keeping a coin on an exchange.
1312
01:29:34.960 --> 01:29:41.655
But by by by, you know, like, good is the enemy of the great, Great is the enemy of the good. And so by by always,
1313
01:29:42.275 --> 01:29:46.535
arguing for the great, we sometimes lose people and never never get them to,
1314
01:29:47.475 --> 01:29:48.215
to good.
1315
01:29:49.300 --> 01:29:49.800
And,
1316
01:29:50.179 --> 01:29:53.719
I mean, I think it's changing a little bit. Like, I've recently seen,
1317
01:29:54.820 --> 01:29:56.199
people talk on Twitter
1318
01:29:56.500 --> 01:29:57.000
about,
1319
01:29:58.045 --> 01:30:06.630
wallets that, back up your keys to, like, Google Drive or similar, and they didn't get flamed into oblivion. And that wasn't just a new
1320
01:30:07.090 --> 01:30:14.230
1321
01:30:14.625 --> 01:30:15.445
1322
01:30:15.745 --> 01:30:25.080
exactly. I mean, Moon does a lot of creative things that involve trade offs, that one can disagree with for for technical and good reasons and so on. Right.
1323
01:30:25.600 --> 01:30:26.100
Yeah.
1324
01:30:26.620 --> 01:30:27.120
But,
1325
01:30:28.900 --> 01:30:29.560
but, yeah,
1326
01:30:30.420 --> 01:30:31.400
again, like,
1327
01:30:32.355 --> 01:30:34.275
you know, any wallet is,
1328
01:30:35.635 --> 01:30:40.055
is probably going to be better than keeping your coins on an exchange,
1329
01:30:41.230 --> 01:30:43.730
for a lot of reasons, not least the right risk.
1330
01:30:44.269 --> 01:30:44.769
And
1331
01:30:45.230 --> 01:30:45.730
and,
1332
01:30:46.190 --> 01:30:46.929
and so,
1333
01:30:47.309 --> 01:30:48.929
also, multisig is dangerous.
1334
01:30:49.230 --> 01:30:49.730
Like,
1335
01:30:52.301 --> 01:30:55.585
1336
01:30:56.125 --> 01:30:58.705
they're either getting, like, rugged on an exchange.
1337
01:30:59.460 --> 01:31:05.880
They're either doing a they're a phishing scam where they just, like, get an email and they put in their seed phrase,
1338
01:31:07.195 --> 01:31:18.739
or they they have time to get lost. It's like they lose the seed or with multisig, I mean, you have to you have to also keep the master x pub as well. Exactly. Well, exactly.
1339
01:31:19.200 --> 01:31:29.365
1340
01:31:30.120 --> 01:31:37.415
And then, you know, one of them disappears, and then we can gather the the 3 of the the remaining ones, and we can claim the coins.
1341
01:31:37.735 --> 01:31:45.750
Nah. Incorrect. You need to have the, the the config file. Yeah. Right? You need to have the master XPub for the 5th key,
1342
01:31:46.950 --> 01:31:47.930
which is not
1343
01:31:48.390 --> 01:31:53.530
1344
01:31:54.345 --> 01:31:56.685
1345
01:31:58.665 --> 01:32:03.085
1346
01:32:04.290 --> 01:32:05.650
1347
01:32:06.210 --> 01:32:12.790
I agree. Like, in that sense, it is early, but also, like, you know, Bitcoin is 1 year younger than the iPhone.
1348
01:32:13.635 --> 01:32:20.215
1349
01:32:20.595 --> 01:32:34.735
is only, like, 2 years old. Right? Like, it's a spiral in this. You can go. On the wallet and have has had the multisig for a long time. Yeah. But Electrum is Yeah. Sure. User front. I mean, Electrum's great. I love Electrum, but it's just
1350
01:32:35.195 --> 01:32:41.770
1351
01:32:42.410 --> 01:32:44.370
clear here that I'm not against
1352
01:32:44.810 --> 01:32:45.870
I'm not to say.
1353
01:32:46.489 --> 01:32:46.989
Yeah.
1354
01:32:48.345 --> 01:33:04.969
Well, that conversation has lived in my head, by the way, for 3 years now. I'm just, you know, one of these people. Like, I'm a contrarian. Right? And and the Bitcoin community Yeah. That's why I love you. People who who think that they're contrarians, but they're often not contrarian towards their in group. Right? So whatever people are hyped up about,
1355
01:33:05.485 --> 01:33:08.225
I'm going to be contrarian against.
1356
01:33:08.685 --> 01:33:12.970
Right? So if everyone's hyped about something, I'm gonna be having this thing.
1357
01:33:14.010 --> 01:33:14.410
But,
1358
01:33:16.730 --> 01:33:18.830
1359
01:33:19.450 --> 01:33:27.625
Rem Bax in the matrix chat saying multisig is good for organizations and maybe public figures. I would go beyond that and say multisig
1360
01:33:28.460 --> 01:33:31.120
is absolutely game changing for organizations.
1361
01:33:31.500 --> 01:33:34.960
If you run any kind of organization that interacts with Bitcoin,
1362
01:33:35.635 --> 01:33:39.895
the fact that you can have, like, spending controls that actually people need to,
1363
01:33:40.914 --> 01:33:47.700
you have to have multiple people within an organization sign on any transaction and have the responsibility of signing for those transactions
1364
01:33:48.960 --> 01:34:06.900
is one of the coolest that like, I still have I have not. I'm there's multiple organizations I'm a part of. The freaks know that I'm just, like, have stretched myself massively thin and do a ton of things in the Bitcoin space. There's a lot of organizational multisigs I'm a part of, and every time I sign a transaction that's a multisig
1365
01:34:08.335 --> 01:34:15.270
with other parties in in one of these organizations, it is the coolest thing ever. Like, I have not gotten over yet how cool that is.
1366
01:34:15.990 --> 01:34:19.370
1367
01:34:19.830 --> 01:34:24.805
yeah, no matter multisig or single signal, whatever, but, like, just the fact that you, you know, click
1368
01:34:25.205 --> 01:34:29.945
for a couple of times on a computer and tap on the keyboard and whatever, and then, like,
1369
01:34:30.645 --> 01:34:38.290
1,000 of dollars appear somewhere else in the world. Like, how magic is this? It's really like, they we actually built,
1370
01:34:39.310 --> 01:34:40.610
built, that.
1371
01:34:43.114 --> 01:34:44.735
We have to sometimes also.
1372
01:34:45.594 --> 01:34:52.120
1373
01:34:52.680 --> 01:34:56.700
1374
01:34:57.160 --> 01:34:58.200
Yeah. But,
1375
01:34:59.160 --> 01:35:01.660
that's also, I guess, an interesting topic. Like,
1376
01:35:02.855 --> 01:35:03.355
kids,
1377
01:35:04.295 --> 01:35:04.935
and the,
1378
01:35:05.495 --> 01:35:09.835
the fact that, you know, again, Bitcoin's been around for, what, 12, 13
1379
01:35:11.940 --> 01:35:12.680
13 years.
1380
01:35:13.940 --> 01:35:15.640
So there's people that are
1381
01:35:17.220 --> 01:35:19.140
growing up in their teenagers that,
1382
01:35:20.260 --> 01:35:22.645
where Bitcoin has always been there,
1383
01:35:23.285 --> 01:35:24.985
for their entire, you know,
1384
01:35:25.285 --> 01:35:25.725
cognizant
1385
01:35:26.165 --> 01:35:28.025
Right. Life. And,
1386
01:35:28.885 --> 01:35:33.610
that's also the an area that I kind of feel like, we should explore more. Like, we've seen,
1387
01:35:34.230 --> 01:35:35.770
on Bitrefill, we frequently
1388
01:35:36.230 --> 01:35:36.730
see,
1389
01:35:37.190 --> 01:35:37.690
kids.
1390
01:35:38.255 --> 01:35:41.075
Yeah. Right? And by kids So they don't have bank accounts?
1391
01:35:41.455 --> 01:35:48.230
They don't have bank accounts. It's different kids. Right? They can be 12 year olds, with their weekly allowance, and it can be,
1392
01:35:49.330 --> 01:35:50.470
17 year olds,
1393
01:35:50.850 --> 01:35:51.350
that,
1394
01:35:52.530 --> 01:35:55.170
figured out, that, this is a way to get,
1395
01:35:56.195 --> 01:36:00.135
get cold skins, for their, for their in game
1396
01:36:00.514 --> 01:36:01.815
1397
01:36:02.195 --> 01:36:03.240
Yeah. Right.
1398
01:36:03.560 --> 01:36:04.700
1399
01:36:05.160 --> 01:36:06.920
I mean, that is a big audience.
1400
01:36:07.640 --> 01:36:14.985
We don't really see them, so much, in the, in the Bitcoin community, I think. Like, I don't even know of any
1401
01:36:15.685 --> 01:36:21.145
I mean, the the last famous teenager we had was Vitalik Buterin, I think. Yeah. But, like,
1402
01:36:21.600 --> 01:36:25.700
who who are these teenage, teenage Bitcoin celebrities? We have
1403
01:36:26.240 --> 01:36:26.740
1404
01:36:27.440 --> 01:36:31.925
who's attacking lightning and saying he loves chaos. He was on the show last week.
1405
01:36:32.305 --> 01:36:36.085
We used to have Ben Kaufman, but then he went down the shitcoin rabbit hole.
1406
01:36:36.865 --> 01:36:40.180
He realized he could make more money working in the Bitcoin industry.
1407
01:36:40.880 --> 01:36:41.380
1408
01:36:42.480 --> 01:36:43.460
I didn't know that.
1409
01:36:43.920 --> 01:36:45.940
Who else do we have to see on in
1410
01:36:46.240 --> 01:36:48.695
the future? Are, you know, kind of, you know, like
1411
01:36:49.494 --> 01:36:50.155
I mean,
1412
01:36:51.014 --> 01:36:51.675
to me,
1413
01:36:52.775 --> 01:36:55.114
like, I remember when blogs
1414
01:36:55.790 --> 01:36:59.489
crossed the chasm and went into the mainstream from being a thing for nerds.
1415
01:36:59.950 --> 01:37:01.730
And the thing that took blogs,
1416
01:37:02.350 --> 01:37:04.370
to the mainstream was teenage girls.
1417
01:37:04.724 --> 01:37:05.385
Right? And,
1418
01:37:05.764 --> 01:37:07.284
they started blogging about,
1419
01:37:07.844 --> 01:37:10.824
what they did today and The online diaries. Makeup.
1420
01:37:11.364 --> 01:37:15.840
Right. And, and the and society thought it was completely unreasonable,
1421
01:37:16.219 --> 01:37:23.324
and they did it anyway. And and people laughed at them, and then it became a massive thing. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah. What do we have?
1422
01:37:23.864 --> 01:37:25.565
What do we have for teenage girls?
1423
01:37:26.185 --> 01:37:27.405
Yeah. How can we,
1424
01:37:28.105 --> 01:37:30.250
how can we get them on
1425
01:37:31.610 --> 01:37:32.430
on the Bitcoin?
1426
01:37:35.130 --> 01:37:39.710
1427
01:37:40.974 --> 01:37:41.635
is because
1428
01:37:43.295 --> 01:37:47.795
they just have so much money behind them that's, like, printed from scams.
1429
01:37:48.680 --> 01:37:49.660
So, like, whenever
1430
01:37:50.120 --> 01:37:52.940
and maybe this is just an excuse that
1431
01:37:53.320 --> 01:37:55.100
pulls away from personal responsibility
1432
01:37:55.880 --> 01:37:57.500
on Bitcoin's side, but
1433
01:37:58.035 --> 01:38:04.970
it's like whenever, like, our grassroots adoption kind of starts to gain any kind of wind, you have the shit corners just come in and
1434
01:38:06.010 --> 01:38:13.870
dominate the conversation. I mean, we saw it in El Salvador. Like, as soon as El Salvador announced legal tender, there was a shitcoin delegation there, like, a week later.
1435
01:38:14.275 --> 01:38:15.015
1436
01:38:16.515 --> 01:38:21.975
Yeah. Such a such a is our industry, and, yes, it's always been the case that,
1437
01:38:23.150 --> 01:38:26.449
that Bitcoin is the one coin that doesn't have a marketing department.
1438
01:38:27.630 --> 01:38:28.269
Yeah. And,
1439
01:38:29.550 --> 01:38:32.195
and still, it has achieved everything that it has
1440
01:38:32.675 --> 01:38:34.215
achieved, yeah, and so on.
1441
01:38:35.074 --> 01:38:41.415
1442
01:38:42.330 --> 01:38:47.710
So, like, for instance, at Bitcoin like, I do consulting for Bitcoin Magazine. I've been their strategic adviser,
1443
01:38:48.490 --> 01:38:52.945
for 2 years now. And, like, half the team are kids that dropped out of college.
1444
01:38:53.965 --> 01:38:58.860
Right. So, like, we do have young big corners, but, like, the problem is that a lot of Then you're not kids. I mean,
1445
01:38:59.239 --> 01:39:00.460
1446
01:39:01.400 --> 01:39:03.340
1447
01:39:03.800 --> 01:39:06.105
in America at least. In America. Yeah.
1448
01:39:06.585 --> 01:39:07.565
1449
01:39:08.185 --> 01:39:09.405
But, I mean,
1450
01:39:10.105 --> 01:39:11.405
Bitcoin doesn't have
1451
01:39:11.785 --> 01:39:15.640
marketing department in some ways. In other ways, it does.
1452
01:39:15.960 --> 01:39:16.460
Right?
1453
01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:22.220
I mean, you are part of it. Maybe I'm part of it as well. We're all part of, the decentralized
1454
01:39:23.215 --> 01:39:28.434
marketing departments. Right? And I I think, like, part of, like, the the critiques that I've been
1455
01:39:28.735 --> 01:39:48.034
raising is because I want our marketing department to do better. Yeah. Right? I think what's really cool is, like, Andre Neves and, like, the Bitcoin gaming side, I think there's there's there's a lot of potential there with kids. We just did a integration with Zebedee that was announced today. So shout out to the people at Zebedee.
1456
01:39:48.800 --> 01:39:50.260
1457
01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:54.340
like, his company you know, I one of my projects is 1031,
1458
01:39:54.640 --> 01:39:56.500
which is a Bitcoin only venture fund.
1459
01:39:57.040 --> 01:39:57.940
Like, his
1460
01:39:58.635 --> 01:40:02.974
his his company is not valued as a Bitcoin only company. Like, he's a gaming company.
1461
01:40:03.275 --> 01:40:05.920
So he has access to all this capital from, like,
1462
01:40:06.320 --> 01:40:06.820
gaming
1463
01:40:07.120 --> 01:40:08.179
gaming funds.
1464
01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:16.265
So he kind of, like, escaped that hole where where Bitcoin only projects tend to have trouble getting funding,
1465
01:40:18.085 --> 01:40:23.465
because of that gaming overlap. Primarily, it's a gaming company, and they're just integrating SaaS into gaming.
1466
01:40:24.300 --> 01:40:24.800
1467
01:40:25.180 --> 01:40:26.540
And, I mean, in the end,
1468
01:40:27.180 --> 01:40:43.540
you know, Bitcoin company will mean the same that Internet company means today. Right. Yeah. Right? They'll be like, what's an Internet company? I don't even know. Like, is a shoemaker an Internet company if she has a website? And, you know, we can discuss that or we cannot discuss that. Yeah. Right?
1469
01:40:44.560 --> 01:40:45.860
So, of course,
1470
01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:48.270
I think
1471
01:40:48.735 --> 01:40:52.355
most Bitcoin companies are intersection of Bitcoin and something else.
1472
01:40:53.055 --> 01:40:53.215
And,
1473
01:40:54.095 --> 01:40:54.595
but,
1474
01:40:55.295 --> 01:41:02.780
but yeah. Then there's Bitcoin on the main, which means that, you can interact intersect with anything else except for for, other cryptocurrencies.
1475
01:41:03.239 --> 01:41:12.014
1476
01:41:12.450 --> 01:41:19.430
is just absolutely destroying me because he has quicker reactions than I do, and I'm just losing sats to him. Like, that is
1477
01:41:20.175 --> 01:41:24.115
that is one of my dreams. Like, that's when I know we'll have we'll have made it to a degree.
1478
01:41:24.655 --> 01:41:37.925
But I think you can, you already have that with, with Sibir and Counter Strike and so on. Yeah. Yeah. Because Counter Strike was a big one. Yeah. The Counter Strike was a big one because, like, they took an existing game, and they kind of just dropped it in there.
1479
01:41:38.785 --> 01:41:45.125
But I wanna see, like, one of the large and I know it's it's not gonna happen overnight because it's really the challengers that want to
1480
01:41:45.580 --> 01:41:47.199
innovate on models before
1481
01:41:47.739 --> 01:41:51.760
the big dogs do it. Right? But, like, a like, a Fortnite or something, something with
1482
01:41:52.219 --> 01:41:53.760
100 of millions of players.
1483
01:41:55.215 --> 01:41:59.075
Counter Strike has a lot, but it's not, like, integrated into the direct Counter Strike game.
1484
01:42:00.095 --> 01:42:05.150
1485
01:42:05.550 --> 01:42:17.215
I mean, currently, the model, as I understand it at least, relies on, like, advertising and so on to get money in, which then, is converted to SaaS and paid out to users. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. Which is great, but it's ad based.
1486
01:42:17.835 --> 01:42:19.935
1487
01:42:20.380 --> 01:42:22.639
1488
01:42:24.619 --> 01:42:27.199
but the interesting thing is when people start,
1489
01:42:27.980 --> 01:42:33.125
paying for games, right, when there is a big enough addressable market of people with SaaS,
1490
01:42:33.905 --> 01:42:35.605
ready to to
1491
01:42:36.320 --> 01:42:39.300
play games, buy items, whatever it is people do.
1492
01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:43.475
Right? So that, again, we we actually get a
1493
01:42:44.035 --> 01:42:46.935
circulating economy even, within the games.
1494
01:42:49.955 --> 01:42:52.615
Right. And for that, we need more people with wallets,
1495
01:42:52.990 --> 01:42:55.730
basically. Well, no. We I think that's my main, more wallets,
1496
01:42:56.190 --> 01:42:57.970
1497
01:42:58.350 --> 01:42:59.890
Fortnite is a free game,
1498
01:43:00.350 --> 01:43:05.715
but Epic makes 1,000,000,000 of dollars selling these skins that don't change anything.
1499
01:43:06.335 --> 01:43:10.035
I mean, people are just people are paying for them. They're just paying with credit cards,
1500
01:43:11.440 --> 01:43:13.860
instead of sats. Like, that could easily be
1501
01:43:14.400 --> 01:43:15.860
just a QR code.
1502
01:43:17.040 --> 01:43:18.135
NFTs. Yeah.
1503
01:43:18.695 --> 01:43:20.875
1504
01:43:21.255 --> 01:43:27.755
in game currencies are are the same as shit coins. Right? And in game items are the same as They're the original shit coin.
1505
01:43:28.230 --> 01:43:31.050
Yeah. Yeah. It's the same thing.
1506
01:43:31.510 --> 01:43:32.010
Games,
1507
01:43:32.390 --> 01:43:37.385
want to have their own currency so that because they can print infinite amounts of it,
1508
01:43:38.184 --> 01:43:38.925
and also
1509
01:43:39.304 --> 01:43:41.644
because they control it. So on.
1510
01:43:42.025 --> 01:43:42.264
So,
1511
01:43:42.905 --> 01:43:44.045
we'll see. I think,
1512
01:43:44.585 --> 01:43:46.684
like, it it'll have to be that,
1513
01:43:47.980 --> 01:43:49.520
you know, the Bitcoin games
1514
01:43:51.020 --> 01:43:51.520
win
1515
01:43:51.900 --> 01:43:55.280
over the non Bitcoin games. Like, I think that that's the path.
1516
01:43:58.765 --> 01:44:05.300
1517
01:44:05.940 --> 01:44:09.239
but there's an advantage for challengers to come in
1518
01:44:09.540 --> 01:44:10.920
and be like, Well, look, we
1519
01:44:11.780 --> 01:44:17.465
use real money that you can actually withdraw and use to buy things, including on Bitrefill.
1520
01:44:18.485 --> 01:44:22.105
So use our game instead, and then eventually, one of those will ideally
1521
01:44:22.900 --> 01:44:30.600
win. And at that point, then it becomes the model and then everyone follows it. I mean, before Fortnite exists, no one thought you'd be out.
1522
01:44:31.725 --> 01:44:33.745
1523
01:44:35.165 --> 01:44:36.065
1524
01:44:36.925 --> 01:44:39.185
1525
01:44:39.725 --> 01:44:48.210
crypto as a game. Right? You you trade tokens to go up and down the value number. Some kind of number goes up, and, you get some kind of satisfaction from that.
1526
01:44:49.344 --> 01:44:49.844
And,
1527
01:44:50.224 --> 01:44:53.045
NFTs are in game items in that
1528
01:44:53.505 --> 01:44:54.005
world.
1529
01:44:55.105 --> 01:44:55.605
Right?
1530
01:44:56.224 --> 01:44:58.190
Right. Like I mean, is
1531
01:44:58.970 --> 01:44:59.450
is,
1532
01:44:59.850 --> 01:45:02.430
an NFT with a picture of a monkey,
1533
01:45:04.090 --> 01:45:06.110
more, less, or equal a shitcoinery,
1534
01:45:06.730 --> 01:45:08.155
than a skin,
1535
01:45:08.554 --> 01:45:15.135
1536
01:45:16.420 --> 01:45:18.600
You're, like, kinda making me curse in the church.
1537
01:45:18.980 --> 01:45:20.980
I think the n t industry is,
1538
01:45:22.020 --> 01:45:26.735
rife with scams and bullshit and not disclosing trade offs and pump and dumps
1539
01:45:27.675 --> 01:45:29.695
and and wash trading and all this bullshit.
1540
01:45:30.155 --> 01:45:38.640
But at the same time, like games and games go? If I don't know. No. That's what that's what I was about to say. Like, if if there was an interoperable standard
1541
01:45:39.420 --> 01:45:40.800
for in game skins,
1542
01:45:41.660 --> 01:45:43.760
where you can transfer them between games,
1543
01:45:44.285 --> 01:45:52.785
is strictly a net benefit over the existing status quo, which is you you buy this skin and it's just locked into this completely centralized walled garden.
1544
01:45:53.230 --> 01:45:59.090
1545
01:46:00.245 --> 01:46:03.305
1546
01:46:03.685 --> 01:46:09.705
and, like, the actual ability to to pull those funds off. Right? Sure. But the Sats are money. An argument. Right,
1547
01:46:11.190 --> 01:46:14.150
1548
01:46:14.710 --> 01:46:17.449
in game items. So it's a different So, like,
1549
01:46:17.855 --> 01:46:19.315
1550
01:46:21.535 --> 01:46:24.755
I I I think a big game would not do this,
1551
01:46:26.450 --> 01:46:31.830
because they like their walled garden, but a challenger might. And it would be cool if,
1552
01:46:32.290 --> 01:46:32.950
you know,
1553
01:46:33.625 --> 01:46:46.830
if if you if you spent 2,000 hours playing a game and you won all these skins, and then a competitor comes out with a new game and is able to cryptographically verify that you have those skins from that game and gives you rewards based on that,
1554
01:46:47.530 --> 01:46:59.030
is a massive, it's just a massive improvement over the status quo. Like, if I spend 2,000 hours playing this one game and then a competitor comes out and is able to actually reward me for playing a different game that they didn't make,
1555
01:47:00.130 --> 01:47:03.760
to kinda bring me in. But you know what's going to happen is gamers.
1556
01:47:04.135 --> 01:47:19.280
1557
01:47:19.900 --> 01:47:20.400
NFTs.
1558
01:47:21.065 --> 01:47:47.010
1559
01:47:47.470 --> 01:48:01.265
Bitcoin, and they had no choice but to integrate Bitcoin withdrawals, which I've been on the record saying they never were gonna do. And now we end up in a a situation where you can transfer between Venmo and Cash App easily using Bitcoin. And it was because the challenger adopted it first.
1560
01:48:02.320 --> 01:48:02.820
1561
01:48:03.280 --> 01:48:13.545
1562
01:48:14.565 --> 01:48:23.570
Yeah. It's just because of of game theory incentives. Right? The challenger adopts it first, the challenger becomes starts to win, and then the incumbent has to kind of
1563
01:48:24.349 --> 01:48:27.730
1564
01:48:28.565 --> 01:48:32.665
in terms of the the Bitcoin marketing team is that, like, that's what
1565
01:48:33.525 --> 01:48:34.025
Bitcoin,
1566
01:48:34.645 --> 01:48:38.105
should focus at, like, the challengers,
1567
01:48:38.470 --> 01:48:43.290
but also, like, everyone else's because the dominant player is never going to. And they're disincentivized,
1568
01:48:44.070 --> 01:48:44.970
from interoperability.
1569
01:48:45.645 --> 01:48:47.405
And this goes even inside,
1570
01:48:48.045 --> 01:48:50.225
you know, in the in the Bitcoin space
1571
01:48:50.605 --> 01:48:53.824
as well. That, like, the large wallets are less incentivized
1572
01:48:54.125 --> 01:49:01.760
to to make transactions. The large exchanges are not incentivized to make withdrawals easy and so on. And so it always has to be
1573
01:49:03.115 --> 01:49:05.515
the small ones, the everyone else, and,
1574
01:49:05.915 --> 01:49:08.655
and then the way that we win is that if we
1575
01:49:09.035 --> 01:49:11.480
if the combined efforts of the everyone else
1576
01:49:12.040 --> 01:49:15.420
reaches a tipping point, I don't know, 50% or something,
1577
01:49:16.280 --> 01:49:20.220
then, yeah, suddenly, we will have standards. We will have interoperability
1578
01:49:20.840 --> 01:49:22.655
and all of these things.
1579
01:49:24.715 --> 01:49:28.575
1580
01:49:29.270 --> 01:49:39.885
We do have Cypher Odeum in the matrix chat saying when's it a little coin, and then you realize that it already exists by someone else because every shitcoin under the sun, like, there's names for everything already.
1581
01:49:40.665 --> 01:49:41.065
There
1582
01:49:41.465 --> 01:49:52.520
we already have a token at ciel dispatch, and that's sats, and that will never change. You will never hear me shill a shitcoin. You will never hear me try and sell you NFTs even if that would make fundraising this type of show,
1583
01:49:54.284 --> 01:49:54.784
demonstrably
1584
01:49:55.085 --> 01:49:57.425
easier. I've seen tons of Shitcoin shows,
1585
01:49:58.045 --> 01:50:05.580
spin up their own bullshit DAOs and whatever. I'm not gonna do any of that garbage with you guys. If you find value from the show, please contribute stats. It is appreciated.
1586
01:50:07.880 --> 01:50:13.475
You just, you know, go to sill dispatch.com and click that big support the show button, and it'll take you to the Geyser page.
1587
01:50:14.015 --> 01:50:18.160
But but, Sergei, before before we wrap up the show, like, we have to talk
1588
01:50:18.640 --> 01:50:29.295
we have to talk about our our our niche drama that is the RBF stuff. We we have to just we have to at least touch on it. It looks like right now that Bitcoin core
1589
01:50:29.835 --> 01:50:32.495
core has already merged and, like, in the next release,
1590
01:50:33.195 --> 01:50:34.655
people will have the option
1591
01:50:35.340 --> 01:50:36.400
to toggle on,
1592
01:50:37.739 --> 01:50:42.639
RBF by default, replace by feed by default, which means that if someone sends a transaction,
1593
01:50:43.985 --> 01:50:50.405
that is in your mempool and then they if you have this toggle set on, which is off by default, but you can turn it on,
1594
01:50:52.590 --> 01:50:57.969
then it gets replaced by a higher fee transaction if you send another transaction with a higher fee.
1595
01:50:58.510 --> 01:51:03.575
You've been on the opposite side of this conversation. How do you feel about it right now?
1596
01:51:04.595 --> 01:51:05.895
1597
01:51:09.390 --> 01:51:11.250
I think I've spoken up about it.
1598
01:51:13.870 --> 01:51:14.530
I mean,
1599
01:51:15.230 --> 01:51:16.050
John Carlo,
1600
01:51:16.510 --> 01:51:19.335
is a better Internet fighter than me. I'm like
1601
01:51:19.735 --> 01:51:20.875
I don't think so.
1602
01:51:21.574 --> 01:51:22.375
Late nights,
1603
01:51:22.855 --> 01:51:25.675
I'm You're too humble. You're too humble, Sergei.
1604
01:51:26.230 --> 01:51:36.585
1605
01:51:36.965 --> 01:51:38.105
1606
01:51:39.845 --> 01:51:44.670
like, he I mean, I don't always agree with his style of doing things, but in this case, I think he's been,
1607
01:51:45.530 --> 01:51:46.030
relatively
1608
01:51:46.489 --> 01:51:47.310
to the point.
1609
01:51:48.330 --> 01:51:50.030
But, I mean, fundamentally,
1610
01:51:52.025 --> 01:51:53.885
you know, there is a current
1611
01:51:54.425 --> 01:51:55.085
I mean,
1612
01:51:55.545 --> 01:51:57.725
there is a way that the Bitcoin network
1613
01:51:58.105 --> 01:51:59.085
works today,
1614
01:52:00.440 --> 01:52:00.940
and
1615
01:52:01.880 --> 01:52:02.860
which is that
1616
01:52:03.960 --> 01:52:04.460
nodes
1617
01:52:05.639 --> 01:52:06.365
do not
1618
01:52:07.245 --> 01:52:16.719
replace the first in transaction unless it has the RBF flag. Right? Yeah. Which was the compromise that you said there. Your wallet sets that this is an RBF transaction
1619
01:52:17.180 --> 01:52:18.800
1620
01:52:20.699 --> 01:52:21.199
1621
01:52:22.060 --> 01:52:22.560
Exactly.
1622
01:52:23.420 --> 01:52:23.920
And
1623
01:52:24.515 --> 01:52:25.255
and so
1624
01:52:25.955 --> 01:52:27.335
the fact that
1625
01:52:28.595 --> 01:52:29.495
this behavior,
1626
01:52:30.515 --> 01:52:31.575
exists leads
1627
01:52:32.195 --> 01:52:32.695
to
1628
01:52:33.490 --> 01:52:34.390
to a property,
1629
01:52:35.330 --> 01:52:36.390
that can be used,
1630
01:52:37.490 --> 01:52:39.270
to somewhat reliably.
1631
01:52:39.570 --> 01:52:45.595
Let's be very clear here. But to somewhat reliably accept transactions without waiting for a confirmation,
1632
01:52:46.455 --> 01:52:48.555
which is immensely useful for the simple,
1633
01:52:49.095 --> 01:52:51.120
I think, reason that
1634
01:52:51.660 --> 01:52:53.040
Bitcoin blocks are unpredictable,
1635
01:52:53.900 --> 01:52:57.360
like, by a lot. Sometimes you have to wait for an hour for the next block.
1636
01:52:57.665 --> 01:53:09.260
Sometimes Binance shows up and dumps a 150 megabytes of blocks above the As soon as you send a transaction. They always do it right after I send them. Yeah. You blocks are predictable, and I I think that the most important,
1637
01:53:10.679 --> 01:53:18.335
thing, when building technology is for things to be predictable because if it's predictable, then people can work, with it around it and so on.
1638
01:53:20.315 --> 01:53:22.495
There's also, like, a lot of other,
1639
01:53:23.115 --> 01:53:27.070
and so, like, we we've been I mean, first of all, this is not something new. Like,
1640
01:53:27.630 --> 01:53:29.250
Satoshi described RBF,
1641
01:53:29.550 --> 01:53:29.630
in
1642
01:53:31.070 --> 01:53:31.570
sorry.
1643
01:53:32.030 --> 01:53:33.135
Satoshi described,
1644
01:53:33.614 --> 01:53:35.715
that the vending machine would use 0Conf,
1645
01:53:36.974 --> 01:53:38.114
and that it would,
1646
01:53:38.574 --> 01:53:41.290
have much lower fraud rates than a credit card,
1647
01:53:42.490 --> 01:53:47.790
in 2010. And then, Jeff Garzik argued with him, and Satoshi replied with the classic,
1648
01:53:48.250 --> 01:53:50.830
if you don't understand, I don't have time
1649
01:53:51.205 --> 01:53:51.865
to explain.
1650
01:53:52.485 --> 01:53:58.345
Yeah. Wait. I forget the quote now. It's a bit late here. It wasn't it wasn't with Varsik. It was with
1651
01:53:59.780 --> 01:54:02.600
1652
01:54:02.980 --> 01:54:08.440
1653
01:54:08.975 --> 01:54:09.475
criticized
1654
01:54:09.775 --> 01:54:13.395
1655
01:54:13.935 --> 01:54:14.435
Yeah.
1656
01:54:14.975 --> 01:54:15.475
So,
1657
01:54:18.030 --> 01:54:19.570
1658
01:54:20.990 --> 01:54:21.490
using,
1659
01:54:22.830 --> 01:54:29.925
this property to accept transactions instantly on the. It's not instantly. There's some seconds and so on and some other
1660
01:54:30.225 --> 01:54:30.725
stuff.
1661
01:54:33.185 --> 01:54:33.685
We
1662
01:54:34.030 --> 01:54:34.910
don't get,
1663
01:54:35.550 --> 01:54:38.450
abused. Like, it's less than 1
1664
01:54:38.830 --> 01:54:40.370
in a 1000000 transactions.
1665
01:54:41.285 --> 01:54:44.585
1666
01:54:45.045 --> 01:54:59.164
1667
01:55:00.025 --> 01:55:02.525
1668
01:55:03.144 --> 01:55:07.970
flag enabled on their transaction, so they signal that it's like blue bond for instance.
1669
01:55:08.510 --> 01:55:13.250
1670
01:55:13.630 --> 01:55:17.705
because we asked them to, and then we we meant to to make it standard.
1671
01:55:18.485 --> 01:55:28.090
1672
01:55:28.630 --> 01:55:30.010
I pay you on Bitrefill.
1673
01:55:30.630 --> 01:55:31.110
1674
01:55:31.670 --> 01:55:36.455
1675
01:55:37.075 --> 01:55:40.375
Does does the fact that I have RBF enabled just automatically
1676
01:55:40.835 --> 01:55:45.199
preclude me from like, or do you automatically exclude me from the 0 comp?
1677
01:55:45.500 --> 01:55:51.040
1678
01:55:51.715 --> 01:55:54.855
which we do at very at very significant risk.
1679
01:55:55.554 --> 01:55:58.990
1680
01:56:00.250 --> 01:56:02.030
1681
01:56:02.810 --> 01:56:06.750
and so the the court devs are arguing that it's better to replace,
1682
01:56:07.135 --> 01:56:07.935
you know, that,
1683
01:56:08.415 --> 01:56:11.955
one time in a million, you're gonna lose all of the money in a payment,
1684
01:56:12.735 --> 01:56:14.415
to sort of everybody has,
1685
01:56:15.750 --> 01:56:16.250
has,
1686
01:56:18.030 --> 01:56:18.690
an easy,
1687
01:56:19.389 --> 01:56:21.409
flag to scam me for a couple of percent.
1688
01:56:21.949 --> 01:56:22.449
And,
1689
01:56:24.435 --> 01:56:27.175
I mean, it's it's a little bit, you know, like,
1690
01:56:27.955 --> 01:56:31.015
the arguments are very strange. And, I mean, I think it's
1691
01:56:31.470 --> 01:56:42.885
like, many okay. Cursing a church. Many core devs don't actually talk to users of Bitcoin. Right? Most of them couldn't name any of the more popular Bitcoin wallets. Right?
1692
01:56:43.905 --> 01:56:46.965
They they have a very theoretical understanding of
1693
01:56:48.310 --> 01:56:50.730
many of them. I mean, I'm I'm generalizing here,
1694
01:56:51.590 --> 01:56:56.970
of how Bitcoin works and how it should work, but not necessarily how it works in practice.
1695
01:56:57.295 --> 01:56:59.155
Right? Right. The users are using
1696
01:56:59.695 --> 01:57:00.195
1697
01:57:00.735 --> 01:57:03.554
USDT, and Trust Wallet with some Bitcoin and other
1698
01:57:04.175 --> 01:57:07.150