Sept. 20, 2022
CD76: DEBATE: Are the tradeoffs of Samourai Wallet's light client mode a benefit to users?
Different format than usual. This is a debate between Zelko and Mechanic with myself as moderator. We will return to our typical format next dispatch.
EPISODE: 76
BLOCK: 754840
PRICE: 5171 sats per dollar
DEBATE: Are the tradeoffs of Samourai Wallet's light client mode a benefit to users?
Zelko on Twitter
Mechanic on Twitter
support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/contribute
twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoA72saVAuQ8hYCnBO0Lymw
bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos
podcast: https://www.podpage.com/citadeldispatch
telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: https://matrix.to/#/#citadel:bitcoin.kyoto
03:53 - Introduction to the new debate format
05:44 - Explanation of the debate prompt
09:38 - Discussion on the trade-offs of using Samurais light client mode
42:57 - Warrant canaries and their effectiveness
45:24 - Trust in Samurai to disclose breaches
50:31 - Privacy needs in different countries
01:24:26 - Discussion about the trade-offs and compromises of using a light wallet versus running your own node
01:58:05 - Debate about the potential benefits and drawbacks of separating liquidity pools for different types of users
02:04:05 - Importance of understanding the trade-offs and compromises when using a privacy-focused wallet
02:06:49 - The importance of running a node for on-chain privacy
02:07:24 - The development of tools like Dojo to encourage running a node for privacy
02:08:11 - The trade-offs and risks of using a light wallet without running a node
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:23:12 PM
Duration: 9662.824
Channels: 1
1
00:00:31.260 --> 00:00:36.720
Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your boy, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.
2
00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:40.895
This episode, it will be slightly different than our normal conversations
3
00:00:41.355 --> 00:00:43.295
on dispatch. We're trying a new format,
4
00:00:44.475 --> 00:00:47.295
for this specific situation. It's gonna be a debate.
5
00:00:47.930 --> 00:00:51.309
We might have more debates on the channel going forward.
6
00:00:51.770 --> 00:00:52.989
Before we get started,
7
00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:57.070
I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show.
8
00:00:58.045 --> 00:01:03.745
As many of you are already aware, dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors,
9
00:01:04.284 --> 00:01:06.305
and I could not do it without you.
10
00:01:06.770 --> 00:01:13.350
The easiest way to support the show is by using a podcasting 2.0 app, such as fountain podcast,
11
00:01:13.945 --> 00:01:14.445
Breezewallet,
12
00:01:15.145 --> 00:01:15.884
or podverse.fm.
13
00:01:16.825 --> 00:01:21.085
There are also many other podcasting apps that use the podcasting 2.0 standard.
14
00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:25.159
You simply use them like a regular podcast app, search still dispatch,
15
00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:33.555
press the subscribe button, choose how many sats per minute you think dispatch is worth to you. And as you listen, it will stream sats directly to my node.
16
00:01:34.015 --> 00:01:38.675
Podcasting 2.0 also supports a feature called boostograms, where you can do a single,
17
00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:46.420
a single payment that includes a message, and I read those read the top 4 of those from the previous episode,
18
00:01:48.235 --> 00:01:48.975
every rip.
19
00:01:49.435 --> 00:01:51.615
You can also support the show by going to cildispatch.com.
20
00:01:52.155 --> 00:01:56.655
I have a BTC pay server there where you can send stats via
21
00:01:57.340 --> 00:01:59.280
an on chain payment or lightning.
22
00:01:59.659 --> 00:02:02.880
And I also have my pay name there, which you can pay from
23
00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:07.675
Samura wallet or Sparrow Wallet. My pay name is Odell. Very easy to remember.
24
00:02:08.295 --> 00:02:12.695
So shout out to all the freaks who continue to support the show. And if you do not, you know, I know it's
25
00:02:13.770 --> 00:02:18.830
I know we're in down down market right now. We're in a bear market right now, and, I know stats are tough
26
00:02:19.450 --> 00:02:22.350
to spare. If you do not have stats to spare,
27
00:02:22.655 --> 00:02:28.355
simply subscribing on your favorite platform, leaving a review, sharing it with your friends and family is greatly appreciated.
28
00:02:28.814 --> 00:02:38.770
As always, Serial Dispatch is broadcast on Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, Bitcoin TV, and is available in all your favorite podcast apps. So thank you. And once again,
29
00:02:39.325 --> 00:02:42.705
dispatch is a unique show in that we have a live audience,
30
00:02:43.565 --> 00:02:49.990
tuning in from Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, and matrix chat. The matrix chat, you can find at citadel dispatch.com
31
00:02:50.290 --> 00:02:52.230
by clicking that citadel chat button.
32
00:02:52.610 --> 00:02:55.670
So we will be interacting with the audience as we usually do,
33
00:02:56.175 --> 00:03:00.995
and I want to thank the freaks that join us in the live chat because you make this a special experience.
34
00:03:01.614 --> 00:03:07.560
So before we get started, I'm just gonna read the top four boosts from the last dispatch, which was with Adam Back.
35
00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:09.640
So dispatch 75.
36
00:03:10.100 --> 00:03:18.135
We have at Nate Johnson contributed 50,000 sats. Says, this show is invaluable. I appreciate all you do for the space. Hope your family is okay.
37
00:03:18.435 --> 00:03:19.895
We have Mallard Quackenbush
38
00:03:20.195 --> 00:03:22.535
with 20,000 sets saying meow meow.
39
00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:26.379
Very insightful, Mallard. Appreciate it. We have letter 6173
40
00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.900
saying, when sat girl summer with 7,777
41
00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:31.900
sets.
42
00:03:32.445 --> 00:03:34.065
And we have 8 mythrander
43
00:03:35.405 --> 00:03:35.905
saying,
44
00:03:36.285 --> 00:03:38.625
Adam is the real one, 5,001
45
00:03:39.165 --> 00:03:49.125
sets. So I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show. I do appreciate you. You can look up the remaining boostograms on your favorite podcasting 2.0 app. They're open for all.
46
00:03:49.425 --> 00:03:50.965
So without further ado,
47
00:03:51.345 --> 00:03:53.125
let's get started on this debate.
48
00:03:53.825 --> 00:03:55.125
I had Zelco.
49
00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.860
We have we have BTC Zelco in the house, a return guest. How's it going, Zelco?
50
00:04:01.480 --> 00:04:04.920
Hey. What's up, Matt? Yeah. No. Been good. Just,
51
00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:07.465
excited to squash some of this,
52
00:04:08.665 --> 00:04:09.644
these myths
53
00:04:10.025 --> 00:04:13.590
that that we would have. So yeah. No. I'm I'm excited. Life's good.
54
00:04:14.550 --> 00:04:15.370
To those
55
00:04:15.910 --> 00:04:19.930
who are not aware, Zelco works with the Ronin Dojo project,
56
00:04:20.389 --> 00:04:21.530
a full node,
57
00:04:23.235 --> 00:04:24.375
a full node solution,
58
00:04:25.315 --> 00:04:28.995
particularly suited for using the samurai stack. We also have,
59
00:04:29.475 --> 00:04:33.210
mechanic in the house who goes by Grasp Fed Bitcoin on Twitter.
60
00:04:33.590 --> 00:04:34.810
How's it going, mechanic?
61
00:04:36.070 --> 00:04:38.090
Hey. Good, man. Thanks for having me.
62
00:04:38.470 --> 00:04:39.530
Pleasure is mine.
63
00:04:40.525 --> 00:04:43.025
He works for Start 9 Labs.
64
00:04:44.365 --> 00:04:47.345
Another full node option available to Bitcoiners.
65
00:04:48.940 --> 00:04:55.040
So today's debate prompt is, are the trade offs of Samura wallets, light client mode, a benefit to users?
66
00:04:55.695 --> 00:04:56.675
This all started
67
00:04:57.375 --> 00:04:58.595
with a tweet
68
00:04:58.975 --> 00:05:00.995
that went out by Grass Fed Bitcoin.
69
00:05:02.095 --> 00:05:10.600
Zelco and him had a back and forth, and then they decided to rope me in, tag me in the tweet, and say, let's have this debate live on air.
70
00:05:12.385 --> 00:05:16.725
Boys, before we get started, I wanna keep this as civil as possible. I do have
71
00:05:17.345 --> 00:05:19.925
god power over both of you and can mute.
72
00:05:20.990 --> 00:05:27.090
I do not wanna use that power. I've never used that power, but I do have. No. I promise I promise to be very respectful.
73
00:05:27.470 --> 00:05:29.410
Otherwise, it won't be a productive debate.
74
00:05:29.865 --> 00:05:31.325
Yeah. I'll do my best.
75
00:05:32.505 --> 00:05:33.645
Despite my original,
76
00:05:34.345 --> 00:05:46.350
you know, trolling style post, I don't intend to just sit here and sling shit. So would you like to maybe maybe to start us off, mechanic, you wanna read the tweet that started this all? Do you have it in front of you?
77
00:05:47.025 --> 00:05:48.005
I actually don't.
78
00:05:48.465 --> 00:05:49.685
I I can do it.
79
00:05:50.305 --> 00:05:51.044
They said,
80
00:05:51.824 --> 00:05:59.830
what's the opposite of galaxy brain meme template? I need something where the person just gets more and more retarded until they end up using samurai wallet.
81
00:06:02.770 --> 00:06:05.005
So that's the that's the initial tweet.
82
00:06:06.525 --> 00:06:10.065
Yeah. So, obviously, you like, trolling, poking fun.
83
00:06:11.165 --> 00:06:12.445
The reason I think it's,
84
00:06:13.485 --> 00:06:13.985
well,
85
00:06:14.409 --> 00:06:22.030
I like the title of the debate, how you framed it already, because that acknowledges that there is at least a trade off to doing it, using in,
86
00:06:23.565 --> 00:06:26.225
the manner in which you're not using your own node.
87
00:06:26.685 --> 00:06:30.370
And, consequently, if you're engaging in coin joins, you're leaking your XPub,
88
00:06:30.690 --> 00:06:33.350
which to me invalidates the whole charm and blinding,
89
00:06:34.130 --> 00:06:43.435
which is what people think imagine the purpose of doing coin joints is in the first place. And my issue is with the general framing in the space, which is not that,
90
00:06:45.014 --> 00:06:46.794
you just shouldn't do it that way.
91
00:06:47.600 --> 00:07:02.945
Instead, it's you can do it that way, and there's a better way, which is to run something like running dojo and connect samurai to it, and or use Whirlpool through Sparrow or something like that. And to be clear, I think those are great projects. ZELCO, I really like Ronin Dojo, and
92
00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:06.040
other people in my company, as you pointed out in our debate,
93
00:07:07.300 --> 00:07:08.500
are fans of it. Like,
94
00:07:08.900 --> 00:07:15.324
Dave Crosson, for example. He's a big fan of the project, and as you mentioned, he's done stuff with you on it.
95
00:07:15.625 --> 00:07:16.125
So,
96
00:07:16.505 --> 00:07:18.365
likewise, that will likely be implemented
97
00:07:18.745 --> 00:07:21.005
in some fashion on start 9,
98
00:07:21.820 --> 00:07:25.580
on the embassy, and, people have come at me with,
99
00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:35.625
accusations of hypocrisy and things like that because I work for Star 9, and what am I doing? What's, what am I talking about? My company likes it. Am I gonna quit? Yada yada yada.
100
00:07:36.324 --> 00:07:46.525
So, no, I don't want to do any of that. I I want to give respect my respect to you. Samurai even does, if I can steal my own samurai as much as possible, even does something which I find really hard
101
00:07:46.925 --> 00:07:57.259
to find outside of samurai wallet, which is if you set it up to connect to your own full mode and your node is offline for some reason, it won't work, which is great. Because things like Electrum,
102
00:07:58.919 --> 00:08:00.139
so many other wallets,
103
00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:02.460
where where privacy is a concern,
104
00:08:03.074 --> 00:08:05.255
and they have some sort of SPV mode,
105
00:08:05.634 --> 00:08:20.190
they will just fail they will just fall back to running public nodes and then betray all your privacy. It only takes one mistake to ruin privacy. Right? So, samurai, to their credit, don't do that. If the node isn't running and they're not connected to it, samurai just won't do anything.
106
00:08:20.889 --> 00:08:28.345
That's great. So I only have one specific problem, and it's a problem that I think isn't really framed correctly, which is
107
00:08:28.805 --> 00:08:33.620
simply what I already stated. I'll try and state it more concisely, which is I don't think it's
108
00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:35.540
better than,
109
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:40.875
the default position where you connect where you leak your XPUB to summarize servers,
110
00:08:41.574 --> 00:08:45.195
by using your own server. I don't think that's better. I think that's required.
111
00:08:45.735 --> 00:08:46.430
That's the difference,
112
00:08:55.085 --> 00:09:02.865
binding where you're leaking your XPub to 3rd parties. I don't think that's legit. I think there are potential use cases for it, and it totally does invalidate
113
00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:21.930
on chain analysis heuristics and things like that. It changes the threat model, but it doesn't do what a lot of people, I think, think it does. So that's why I want to try and spread that awareness even though I'm obviously being stupid and calling people retarded and stuff like that. I think there's actually a serious point behind it. And
114
00:09:22.630 --> 00:09:32.515
what it devolves into when I chat with this stuff is people going absolutely nuts at me for something that I'm unable to abandon because I do genuinely find it to be truthful.
115
00:09:33.055 --> 00:09:35.315
So, yeah, I'll stop there, and let's,
116
00:09:35.935 --> 00:09:37.635
let's let you have a record.
117
00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:39.510
So to be clear,
118
00:09:40.370 --> 00:09:41.589
you're saying that
119
00:09:42.290 --> 00:09:43.010
what if,
120
00:09:43.889 --> 00:09:44.870
if you're connecting
121
00:09:45.535 --> 00:09:51.715
to a semi wallet server. Right? So, you know, they're providing all your balances. Right? That's what the x bugs are for.
122
00:09:52.975 --> 00:09:53.475
That
123
00:09:53.850 --> 00:09:54.750
there is no
124
00:09:55.450 --> 00:10:01.470
privacy gained whatsoever. Is that your overall stance because you're not running through your own node?
125
00:10:02.365 --> 00:10:04.625
I'm not saying there's no privacy gain whatsoever.
126
00:10:05.005 --> 00:10:11.585
There can be. It depends on whether you trust the people that you're providing the information to. It might not be. It might be.
127
00:10:12.029 --> 00:10:27.705
To me, it's, the analogy I like to use for it is VPNs. Like, I find samurai in that used in that manner to be like NordVPN or ProtonMail or something like that where you can actually be, in worst case scenario, just using a honeypot.
128
00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:43.415
Because if it's not actually like, a VPN will say we don't keep log, we have to trust them not to keep logs. That's not the same as them not having any data in the first place, which is a far superior model. Like, the basic adage, can't be evil is better than don't be evil. Okay. Well,
129
00:10:43.795 --> 00:10:45.714
for 1, right, that requires
130
00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:47.860
in in order to d docs,
131
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.580
any of those ex pubs, right,
132
00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:51.860
1,
133
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.020
you you need some sort of
134
00:10:54.555 --> 00:10:58.495
PII. Right? Some sort of personally identified information. Something that will,
135
00:10:59.035 --> 00:11:01.170
connect you, right, to that
136
00:11:01.570 --> 00:11:02.870
to to that expo.
137
00:11:03.250 --> 00:11:04.470
Right? And
138
00:11:05.010 --> 00:11:14.084
you're talking about post, you know, post spends. You probably need to have some sort of link that actually connects you to your spend and then be able to trace it backwards or,
139
00:11:15.105 --> 00:11:18.005
yeah, like, if they were to tie the x pub that way. But
140
00:11:18.520 --> 00:11:22.860
they there's no sign up. Right? There's no emails. There's no names.
141
00:11:23.560 --> 00:11:28.495
There's no by default, it comes with Tor. Right? So your IP address is hidden.
142
00:11:29.194 --> 00:11:29.694
So
143
00:11:30.634 --> 00:11:34.574
I'm not I'm not entirely sure, like, where that threat model is. Like, where,
144
00:11:35.740 --> 00:11:38.320
if you are in a pinch, you don't have a node.
145
00:11:38.620 --> 00:11:46.685
And this is coming from the guy that wants everyone to run a node, obviously. Right? Like, I would love if every samurai user was a Ronin Dojo user. It'd be fantastic,
146
00:11:47.065 --> 00:11:48.765
but that's that's not
147
00:11:49.209 --> 00:11:57.550
the that's not always the case. Not everyone has the ability to do that. Right? They might they might have the ability to mix some coins that they need mixed, and
148
00:11:58.575 --> 00:12:10.130
there of of course, there's a a trust model and trust trade off whenever when it comes to a light node any light node. Right? Like, any light wallet. Sorry. Any light wallet is gonna require some sort of trust model. Right?
149
00:12:10.510 --> 00:12:15.730
What and the the question is and the reason why Sunrise Wallet is set up this way to have their server
150
00:12:16.074 --> 00:12:18.255
is because they tend to believe that people who
151
00:12:18.875 --> 00:12:19.935
use their software
152
00:12:20.634 --> 00:12:24.495
have some sort of trust in them. If you don't trust Samurais Wallet,
153
00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.140
why would you run their wallet? Like, why would you install their software?
154
00:12:28.520 --> 00:12:39.024
You wouldn't. Right? Like like, some people like like, it to me to me, that that doesn't really make sense. Like, if you're like, oh, they're bad actors, but I'm still gonna use it. Like, that doesn't make sense,
155
00:12:39.725 --> 00:12:41.024
whatsoever. Right?
156
00:12:42.260 --> 00:12:46.200
And if if you're looking for quick, you know, 3rd,
157
00:12:46.900 --> 00:12:49.320
3rd party, you know, like, blockchain,
158
00:12:50.585 --> 00:12:51.085
privacy.
159
00:12:51.545 --> 00:12:52.045
Right?
160
00:12:52.585 --> 00:12:54.765
Samurai Wallet's going to give that to you whether
161
00:12:55.145 --> 00:12:55.645
you're
162
00:12:56.185 --> 00:12:56.685
using,
163
00:12:57.465 --> 00:13:03.630
using the light wallet, right, or if you're connecting it to your node, when it comes down to, let's look at the blockchain,
164
00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:12.235
right, or if you're chain analysis and you're starting from the end or you're starting from the beginning, you're trying to find out whose this is, who's this game from,
165
00:13:12.774 --> 00:13:29.065
then you have that privacy. That privacy is there, and you're not it's not unwinding it. Like, users there are a lot of users who can't just, like, up and run a node at the same time, like, from the start. I would love it if they did, but that's not the reality. It's not the reality of of Bitcoin. Like,
166
00:13:29.605 --> 00:13:35.065
running nodes has gotten way more popular, but we're still not at a point where the vast majority do it. So
167
00:13:35.540 --> 00:13:37.320
a trust trade off is
168
00:13:38.180 --> 00:13:38.680
is
169
00:13:39.140 --> 00:13:43.480
it's going to be there. Right? But it it doesn't make you not private.
170
00:13:43.825 --> 00:13:44.805
Like, it doesn't,
171
00:13:46.945 --> 00:13:54.040
it doesn't take away from the privacy that you gain. Right? You're trusting do you and the question that users have to ask themselves,
172
00:13:54.420 --> 00:13:55.320
do you trust,
173
00:13:56.100 --> 00:14:00.440
Samurai Wallet? If you're a light wallet user, do you trust Samurai Wallet more than you trust Chainalysis
174
00:14:01.300 --> 00:14:11.770
or whatever it is that you're trying to gain? Because if if you trust 1 versus the other, you know, that that should be your trust model. Like, you have to if you if you're not gonna run a node, you need to have some sort of trust,
175
00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:15.230
And Samurai Watch is not to elect for random
176
00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:19.865
nodes that could be surveillance nodes, which we know that are out there. Instead, they chose
177
00:14:20.665 --> 00:14:23.485
to be the one that that bears that burden for their users.
178
00:14:23.945 --> 00:14:32.410
So I'm just gonna jump in here real quick and provide a little bit of context. I'm seeing a question in the matrix chat, which clues me in that this context should be given.
179
00:14:33.350 --> 00:14:53.260
When you're interacting with the Bitcoin network, to interact with the Bitcoin network, you need to use a Bitcoin node. Now that node could either be your own node or it can be someone else's node. If it if you're using someone else's node, you're trusting them with the validation, the verification of the rules of the network, and you're trusting them with some elements of your privacy.
180
00:14:53.945 --> 00:14:55.325
With Samurais specifically,
181
00:14:55.865 --> 00:14:59.485
you're able to use their software wallet, their mobile wallet,
182
00:14:59.785 --> 00:15:02.250
with your own node or with their node.
183
00:15:02.550 --> 00:15:05.130
If you use it with their node, first of all,
184
00:15:06.550 --> 00:15:13.665
a warning message pops up when you first boot up the wallet telling you that there is a trust element involved in trusting their node,
185
00:15:15.085 --> 00:15:21.330
and suggesting that you consider using your own node. And the second thing is you're trusting them with
186
00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:26.210
the the verification of the rules of the network, and you're trusting them with some element of privacy.
187
00:15:26.605 --> 00:15:28.305
Now with Samurais specifically,
188
00:15:29.084 --> 00:15:34.785
it defaults to Tor. So you do not give them your IP address when you are connecting to their node.
189
00:15:35.889 --> 00:15:36.389
But
190
00:15:36.769 --> 00:15:45.335
they are able to if they are acting maliciously, they're able to link the different addresses you have together. So best practice in Bitcoin
191
00:15:45.715 --> 00:15:47.175
is to not reuse addresses.
192
00:15:47.715 --> 00:15:52.215
But in this situation, whosever node you're using is able to then,
193
00:15:52.660 --> 00:15:57.399
in this case, samurai, is able to then link those addresses, balances, and transactions
194
00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:08.125
with each other. Now they obviously do not have a legal name. They do not have an IP address. They just because it goes through Tor, but they're able to link those specific things together.
195
00:16:08.665 --> 00:16:09.165
Now,
196
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.980
yeah. So that that's that's the key setup that we're talking about here,
197
00:16:17.355 --> 00:16:20.175
and now you can carry on, Mechanic, if you'd like to respond.
198
00:16:21.275 --> 00:16:24.475
Yeah. So, I mean, I don't want a straw man, you,
199
00:16:25.275 --> 00:16:26.175
in any case.
200
00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:37.525
You're just you're asking people if they trust samurai, and I'm saying I don't want people to trust samurai. I want for samurai to be in a position where you don't have to trust them, which
201
00:16:38.145 --> 00:16:49.149
is the ethos of almost everything in Bitcoin. We're talking about trust less money, and I don't wanna be obtuse because these are having privacy in Bitcoin is not the same thing as Bitcoin itself.
202
00:16:50.170 --> 00:16:50.670
But
203
00:16:51.115 --> 00:16:53.295
I don't want to trust someone
204
00:16:53.675 --> 00:16:57.774
that has put themselves in a position where I need to trust them. That is not,
205
00:16:58.315 --> 00:17:01.120
that is not a serious way to go about things. It's
206
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.740
and given that people are going to come to them,
207
00:17:06.080 --> 00:17:06.740
I mean,
208
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.345
I don't wanna be crude, but if someone told you, hey, put this stuff over your skin, it will make you invisible,
209
00:17:12.804 --> 00:17:13.625
and it doesn't,
210
00:17:14.245 --> 00:17:24.140
like, you're doing far more damage to a person. Like, what's the consequences of a person going out who thinks they're invisible when they're not? They're gonna do things that they wouldn't do,
211
00:17:24.845 --> 00:17:28.705
if they knew everyone could see them. Right? So people might take precautions
212
00:17:29.165 --> 00:17:34.400
if they hadn't engaged in any privacy practices at all or any sort of coin joining privacy practices.
213
00:17:35.500 --> 00:17:41.280
People might in people act carefully when they know they're being watched if they have the illusion of privacy,
214
00:17:42.445 --> 00:17:52.270
in which which can have been afforded to them by taking part in a coin joint, that worst case scenario again, I don't wanna cast aspersions here. I'm just saying worst case scenario.
215
00:17:52.650 --> 00:18:10.010
If samurai were bad actors and they were providing a service to people that were looking specifically for privacy because they wanted to do something illicit or, you know, they just wanted to privacy is a human right. We all know that people can do this to for the most, ethical of reasons, to just look after their own privacy.
216
00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:33.475
Supposing you go there, you engage in it, samurai turn out to be bad actors, your identity gets leaked in some way, which you mentioned. You said it's not a problem if identity doesn't get connected with the person somehow, but the fact that that can happen is why we need these practices in the first place. So if you're not worried about identity getting attached to any sort of Bitcoin address, then there's no need for coin joining in the first place.
217
00:18:34.815 --> 00:18:54.080
The fact that there is means, you know, the point of coin joining is, my identity got linked to this Bitcoin address that I withdrew from some Bitcoins I bought from Coinbase. I withdrew them to this address. I now need to break chain analysis that will connect that address and my identity to other future addresses. The point of coin joining is to break that.
218
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.980
If you reattach identity to it at some point, then that's a problem.
219
00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:03.665
But, anyway, I digress. I'm saying my point is that if you,
220
00:19:04.685 --> 00:19:06.385
if your identity becomes known,
221
00:19:06.765 --> 00:19:12.625
the whole point of coin joining is to break that again so chain analysis can't do it. But if you're engaging in that practice,
222
00:19:13.070 --> 00:19:14.130
in the first place,
223
00:19:14.590 --> 00:19:16.130
thinking it's giving you privacy,
224
00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.850
you're you might potentially be doing it through a company that exists
225
00:19:21.895 --> 00:19:24.715
specifically, maybe not even through a fault of their own,
226
00:19:26.215 --> 00:19:26.695
as,
227
00:19:27.015 --> 00:19:36.530
an entity that collects data from people and, you know, I'm I'm down around it, but I'm basically saying the honeypot I got what you're saying. The the honeypot thing. Right? So and, again,
228
00:19:36.895 --> 00:19:39.315
in order for the honeypot to be effective,
229
00:19:40.095 --> 00:19:52.840
right, so they they would, 1, need to get attacked. Right? And all the x bugs would need to be taken, All of them, not just one, not isolated. It needs to be all of them. Right? And then they need to have something that still connects them to that identity,
230
00:19:53.284 --> 00:19:57.865
like, to that xPub. So it's required. Problem that I need to Can you hear me?
231
00:19:58.725 --> 00:20:04.720
Yeah. For sure. I'm just saying it would be just one xPub, and that's a problem. Sure. But I I'm saying if if some if their
232
00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:11.915
if their server got attacked, it's it's all of them, but also the fact that, like, that one x pub would only give them one person. Right?
233
00:20:12.955 --> 00:20:17.295
So even even in the case that you're saying, right, they're they need something in addition.
234
00:20:17.595 --> 00:20:24.000
Right? The x pub alone is not going to do anything to link their PII, and that's what I'm saying. Their identity is not connected,
235
00:20:24.540 --> 00:20:30.480
right, because there's nothing that connects it before, and there's nothing that's connecting it. There there's nothing on Samuraiserv
236
00:20:31.215 --> 00:20:34.835
or in dojo because that's what their samurai server is, is dojo.
237
00:20:35.215 --> 00:20:39.635
Right? And, there's nothing I know better in Bitcoin than than dojo.
238
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:43.040
Right? There's nothing in Dojo that can that says, oh,
239
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.000
you know, BTC, XLCO's, XPUB,
240
00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:47.355
like, boom.
241
00:20:47.835 --> 00:20:51.695
There's nothing that connects you from within their server, so there's nothing that can connect
242
00:20:52.075 --> 00:20:52.575
afterwards.
243
00:20:53.035 --> 00:21:01.410
Right? And there's nothing that can connect their identity. When you're talking about identity in in particular, now spending behaviors, whatever. Sure. But if they they need to have that other information,
244
00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:05.655
they need to have who that what that other addresses do. Private practices
245
00:21:06.034 --> 00:21:33.340
going forward, for sure, but it wouldn't necessarily be it they don't need to do the work of law enforcement for them. They can just say, okay. We have an ex pub. Here's a bunch of addresses which aren't linked due to chain analysis anymore, but we can provide you an XPUB, which will link certain addresses. Now it's a separate issue going and finding the identity that is attached to those addresses. That doesn't need to be an additional risk. Like, if you have to sign in to Samurais and upload a picture of your passport too, that would be a separate
246
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:44.054
problem. Like, that's not you don't have to do that. I mean, hats off So the fact you don't have to So the argument is that someone's going to hack samurai server, a privacy server, the threat model.
247
00:21:44.434 --> 00:22:02.065
The That's one issue. Another is that there someone's gonna hack them and then just turn over all of their stuff to law enforcement. So law enforcement or chain analysis can link all of these xpubs or one xpub or whatever. Like, that's the that's the threat model that someone's gonna do that. Like, WhiteHat
248
00:22:02.445 --> 00:22:02.945
just,
249
00:22:03.725 --> 00:22:14.260
attack all these users. Because what it really what it really comes down to is that law enforcement, chain analysis, any of these companies, right, they don't have expos. They don't have that information. Right?
250
00:22:14.905 --> 00:22:17.625
The the users that are using it, like, wallet How do you
251
00:22:18.345 --> 00:22:22.280
that is what you need to explain to me, how you can be so confident in that assertion.
252
00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:46.380
If anything happens. Like, they it it's in it's been in their terms of service from the beginning.
253
00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:47.260
Right?
254
00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.664
Mhmm. Yeah. But are you saying that's entirely because they're bootlickers
255
00:22:52.044 --> 00:22:58.784
rather than the fact that there's pressure on them to do that, and they've just bent the price down the road? Said that they were not pressured to add in blacklisting.
256
00:23:02.909 --> 00:23:05.570
Like, you could go on a whole thing about what's stopping, but Right.
257
00:23:06.575 --> 00:23:13.395
We can conclude that law enforcement are definitely paying attention to things like CoinJoin. Right? They're not just letting it go past without any interest.
258
00:23:13.910 --> 00:23:17.190
Well, the the real threat model, and I'm wondering if you guys would agree
259
00:23:17.830 --> 00:23:22.570
look. I I think you both agree that obviously using your own note is preferable here.
260
00:23:22.894 --> 00:23:26.835
But the the real the real threat model with the light client mode
261
00:23:27.215 --> 00:23:29.154
is you're not just trusting samurai
262
00:23:30.029 --> 00:23:35.169
to not be malicious. You're trusting them to be able to keep their server secure. So if their server gets compromised,
263
00:23:36.029 --> 00:23:37.970
and we already know that maybe
264
00:23:38.514 --> 00:23:50.889
90% over 90% of new users who come into Bitcoin are coming in via KY Seed Services, where they're uploading their passport, giving their Social Security number, taking selfies, putting their mailing address and stuff. If the server gets compromised
265
00:23:51.269 --> 00:23:53.289
by some government affiliated agency
266
00:23:53.669 --> 00:23:54.809
and then gets coupled
267
00:23:55.495 --> 00:23:56.795
with KYC information,
268
00:23:57.575 --> 00:23:59.035
then that entity
269
00:23:59.895 --> 00:24:02.715
can go and unwind the collaborative transactions.
270
00:24:03.015 --> 00:24:03.515
CoinJoin
271
00:24:04.820 --> 00:24:11.375
can unwind those transactions because they have full sight into the rounds. Do we both agree on that? Mhmm.
272
00:24:13.115 --> 00:24:21.150
I mean, yeah. Yeah. If you have someone's ex pub, you can see, like, all the all the history. Like, that's And, like, the deposit address would be a a KYC'd
273
00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:22.670
attached
274
00:24:23.050 --> 00:24:33.825
to POS. The only thing I disagree with that you said is that, it's better to run a full node. My flat out assertion is that it's required. It's not better. And that's that's also just
275
00:24:35.405 --> 00:24:43.250
if you try to make something like that required, right, people just miss out on the tool. Right? The tool still work. Like like, it's trying to say that CoinJoin,
276
00:24:43.789 --> 00:24:44.110
which is
277
00:24:45.105 --> 00:24:51.125
the whole point of it is to obscure the blockchain. Right? Obscure transaction blockchain or a collaborative transaction.
278
00:24:51.665 --> 00:24:54.165
And by you trying to make an assertion that
279
00:24:55.080 --> 00:24:56.460
if you're not,
280
00:24:56.760 --> 00:24:58.139
that you have no privacy,
281
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:03.340
that's saying that it you don't even get any sort of gain, which you do. You get immediate gain,
282
00:25:03.705 --> 00:25:09.885
right, from having this transaction because the only way the own and only in this fairy tale situation
283
00:25:10.345 --> 00:25:12.924
is that if they get compromised. And if they get compromised,
284
00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:26.285
you could easily move those funds to a brand new wallet that's backed by a node and then mix them again. You can do all of those things if you're really that concerned. But, honestly, like, the the threat model the threat model the current the current threat model
285
00:25:26.745 --> 00:25:28.045
is against chain analysis,
286
00:25:28.425 --> 00:25:30.685
right, and against people just looking at the blockchain.
287
00:25:31.710 --> 00:25:32.210
Does
288
00:25:32.830 --> 00:25:38.690
does does does does Whirlpool give you that this is what I need to know. Hold on. I need to know that. Does Whirlpool solution.
289
00:25:39.070 --> 00:25:40.770
Does Whirlpool give you
290
00:25:42.005 --> 00:25:43.225
transactional privacy,
291
00:25:43.685 --> 00:25:44.905
right, on the blockchain?
292
00:25:48.165 --> 00:25:54.970
You can make some assumptions about it. I mean, look, with a theoretically perfect hold on. With a theoretically perfect coin join,
293
00:25:55.350 --> 00:26:01.125
if best practices are observed by everyone involved, and it's something like join market where there's,
294
00:26:01.505 --> 00:26:12.400
you know, where we have a superior approach in almost every way. Just saying, oh, I'm not a wasabi, and much preferred coin market. I'm saying if other people engaged in the coin joint don't observe proper practices
295
00:26:12.940 --> 00:26:29.260
and link UTXOs again, that ruins your privacy too. So there's no such it's a very approximate way to get privacy into a system that's public by design. Privacy is a huge issue in Bitcoin. It's really difficult to see how know why join market's privacy doesn't if someone has really poor practices,
296
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.860
it it ruins their privacy because you're only mixing you're doing basically just one collaborative transaction.
297
00:26:35.365 --> 00:26:36.985
Right? Like, you're not doing
298
00:26:37.285 --> 00:26:42.585
you're not having 5 people, and, like, yes, one of those 5 people could screw up, and then everyone else is still remixing.
299
00:26:42.965 --> 00:26:46.980
We have far more liquidity and Whirlpool than we do in joint market.
300
00:26:47.280 --> 00:27:02.210
So as those numbers go up, you're just hiding in a in a a far bigger mix. Right? People are mixing the cold storage and leaving it there. It's just continuously getting gaining privacy because people don't know who those transactions are, like, who those UTXOs are from. Right? So your your theory that,
301
00:27:03.169 --> 00:27:03.669
that
302
00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:07.990
you're gonna get better coin joints from joint market, that's also very silly.
303
00:27:08.769 --> 00:27:10.710
And one person could ruin that versus
304
00:27:11.015 --> 00:27:11.835
one individual
305
00:27:12.695 --> 00:27:15.755
practicing bad habits, which are preached and and explained
306
00:27:16.215 --> 00:27:34.255
thoroughly multiple times by hundreds of people in, in the samurai community. Right? And, like, we don't do the spend all. There's so many, like, red flag or pop ups that happen when you try to hurt do something that would harm your privacy in the samurai wallet because they know that at the end of the day, some users are gonna do something stupid.
307
00:27:34.555 --> 00:27:35.375
Right? But
308
00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:40.140
it's not going to ruin everything for everybody. Right? It's not going to unwind everything.
309
00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:42.460
Right? You still have far more,
310
00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:54.509
privacy, and that this is a totally different topic, but you're getting more privacy from from that than you are in join market. But the the It's pro Like, that's that's, like, laughable to me. But the private it's coin join. It doesn't
311
00:27:54.809 --> 00:28:09.005
it doesn't completely do it with one mistake from one participant. It's just an assumption. Right? Like, you have you engage in a round with a 100 other people. You assume that 20 of them are at the FBI, another 10 of them are gonna remix their UTXOs afterwards,
312
00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:22.174
and you'd be more pessimistic as you like, or you engage in more rounds afterwards, and you go, okay. I feel pretty private now. But this is the whole thing. It's all very approximate, which is why you don't wanna shoot yourself in the foot by using something that's designed
313
00:28:22.715 --> 00:28:37.475
in a compromised way in the first place. Like, you're you're what you're saying about Sam Okay. Do you know why let me let me just stop. So there's a specific reason why Samurai Wallet opted to to do the server mode. Not sure if you if you know the history. Right?
314
00:28:37.855 --> 00:28:39.875
So Samurai Wallet's been around since before,
315
00:28:41.055 --> 00:28:41.555
the
316
00:28:42.735 --> 00:28:46.900
the user activated software. Right? So that was why.
317
00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:53.460
And they allowed a trusted note option where you could connect to connect to your your note or or whatnot. But,
318
00:28:54.595 --> 00:28:56.695
sorry. I didn't mean to keep clicking my pen, Matt.
319
00:28:57.955 --> 00:29:03.255
But the whole I told Zalco to stop clicking my pen. He did. I I've been clicking my pen. I'm sorry.
320
00:29:04.770 --> 00:29:16.185
But the whole point was that people were running people were running light wallets. So they came from a time period, which I know is hard for everyone to to understand now that we have, you know, everyone. There there's
321
00:29:16.725 --> 00:29:17.705
too many node
322
00:29:18.245 --> 00:29:19.625
node projects now,
323
00:29:20.005 --> 00:29:23.865
for people to think about not running a node. But, like, there was a time
324
00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:24.970
when
325
00:29:25.590 --> 00:29:29.610
the majority of users didn't run their own node. It just wasn't a thing. Right? So
326
00:29:29.990 --> 00:29:33.050
they said instead of using a an an Electrum
327
00:29:33.525 --> 00:29:34.985
style setup where,
328
00:29:35.525 --> 00:29:37.625
you're gonna be connecting to a random node
329
00:29:38.005 --> 00:29:41.145
to fetch your balances, why would you give away that information?
330
00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:49.625
At least, at a minimum, you can trust us because you're already using our software. That's why that that model is there. It's not because of, like, some other thing. It's the fact that
331
00:29:50.105 --> 00:29:50.765
most users
332
00:29:51.225 --> 00:29:53.965
understand that trade off. Most users who are using LightWallet
333
00:29:54.265 --> 00:30:12.415
are either starting out like that because they don't have a node. Right? And they're okay. They wanna try to they wanna see what's going on, and then a majority of them switch over to a full node. Right? But the idea is that if you take away something that gives them that immediate privacy because there has not been a leak, there hasn't been a hack, you're still going to be able to to transact privately,
334
00:30:12.715 --> 00:30:13.215
right,
335
00:30:13.530 --> 00:30:15.230
detaching away from that initial
336
00:30:15.530 --> 00:30:17.790
whether it was KYC or that initial transaction.
337
00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:20.270
Whatever the previous history was is gone.
338
00:30:20.625 --> 00:30:24.965
Right? Like, you you actually have that unlike in in other coin join attempts.
339
00:30:25.265 --> 00:30:40.715
Right? You actually get that deterministic links are actually broken in Whirlpool. So moving forward, they have that privacy. They can do what they want. Right? They could they harm themselves? It's very difficult, but could they? Sure. But at the end of the day, you're talking about in this in this
340
00:30:41.095 --> 00:30:41.835
fairy tale
341
00:30:42.294 --> 00:30:42.794
situation
342
00:30:43.415 --> 00:30:50.440
where samurai gets hacked and everything is is to shit. If that does happen, it's bad for everybody. Like, it is bad for Bitcoin
343
00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:54.440
if that happened and everyone who was a light wallet user
344
00:30:54.935 --> 00:31:03.115
with the with the I chose a pet. But they're not well, why would you change it now and force all users to run an a node in order to use their mobile wallet?
345
00:31:03.510 --> 00:31:08.730
Forcing Well, you don't have forcing users to do that is not is not something that, one, they need to do.
346
00:31:09.030 --> 00:31:14.065
Right? Because most users wanna transact, like, at the highest privacy level that they can.
347
00:31:14.445 --> 00:31:21.080
So You don't have to they run a node. I have the game for that because it's not necessary. You can still do this thing with an SPV.
348
00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:29.565
You don't need to. You can just use block filters, which as you point out weren't available back when Samura's original design was done. Bit 157 and 158
349
00:31:30.105 --> 00:31:45.685
solve the problem of having nodes that you have to pull data from and consequently ruining your own privacy. Block filters get rid of the full set of people to provide you the block filters. So what's your like, there's not it doesn't it doesn't fit in yet. You're trusting them with the fleet of the network, but you're not trusting them
350
00:31:46.165 --> 00:31:47.225
with, keeping,
351
00:31:47.605 --> 00:31:51.705
not keeping logs of what it is you're requesting because they don't know what it is you're requesting
352
00:31:52.085 --> 00:31:53.065
because it's probabilistic.
353
00:31:53.610 --> 00:32:25.525
They have to make so many assumptions. You're pulling a whole bunch of data, and you're obfuscating the specific requirements. It's not like, here's my XPub. Tell me the exact history of this on the blockchain. It's, here. I need a 10,000 bits of data. One of them is interesting to me, and you've got no heuristic for figuring out which one it is. Block filters are really good. They're much better than bloom filters, but they're newer. This is what this is a good design, and you can switch to that if it's really important, which it is, to make sure people without nodes can still engage in coin joining. Switch to block filters. Does block does block filters work for,
354
00:32:27.025 --> 00:32:31.205
anything other than BIP 80 4? Yeah. Wait. So let me just jump in here real quick.
355
00:32:32.029 --> 00:32:35.090
So block filters are what Wasabi uses.
356
00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:40.190
Block filters, you have a trust trade off in terms of you
357
00:32:40.955 --> 00:32:42.015
you're you're trusting
358
00:32:42.715 --> 00:32:49.215
the provider of the block filters to actually notify you if your transactions came in, but you're not trusting them with your privacy.
359
00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:52.790
Now my basic understanding of the situation
360
00:32:53.730 --> 00:32:58.150
is that block filters are too heavy to currently implement on mobile.
361
00:32:58.929 --> 00:33:00.455
I even Nopara,
362
00:33:01.715 --> 00:33:04.855
lead dev and founder of Wasabi, has agreed with that.
363
00:33:05.315 --> 00:33:07.414
You know, Wasabi uses a desktop.
364
00:33:08.115 --> 00:33:08.615
So
365
00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:12.040
I to me, the crux of this debate
366
00:33:12.419 --> 00:33:14.600
comes down to the fact of,
367
00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:17.640
should people that only have a mobile phone,
368
00:33:18.275 --> 00:33:21.255
that do not have the ability to use their own node,
369
00:33:22.115 --> 00:33:25.415
do not have the ability to use a desktop computer in general,
370
00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:27.160
are those people
371
00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:31.020
should those people get some kind of privacy gain
372
00:33:31.560 --> 00:33:35.660
on the ledger even if it requires trusting an entity such as samurai?
373
00:33:36.445 --> 00:33:44.784
And if you use join market if you use join market, that doesn't solve that issue. It doesn't solve the issue for people that only have mobile phones.
374
00:33:45.679 --> 00:33:52.419
Yeah. I just don't like the framing of it as a privacy gain because it's not necessarily a privacy gain. It can be weakening
375
00:33:52.774 --> 00:33:56.635
depending on whether samurai are not only trustworthy, but also
376
00:33:57.255 --> 00:34:07.970
just completely competent, which they can have the best intentions in the world, but accidents happen. We we need the data not to exist in the first place. The minute it does, it's it's a problem. This is like
377
00:34:08.785 --> 00:34:11.445
a a white knight this is like white knighting privacy.
378
00:34:11.905 --> 00:34:13.865
Like, it's not the it's not the realistic
379
00:34:14.305 --> 00:34:15.285
Well, let's let's
380
00:34:15.825 --> 00:34:21.030
let's bring this let's bring this to a scenario let's bring this to, like, a a real world scenario,
381
00:34:22.450 --> 00:34:23.510
because I'm curious.
382
00:34:24.050 --> 00:34:25.910
I'm curious of mechanic's opinion.
383
00:34:26.575 --> 00:34:29.955
So if if you're if you're if you're an activist
384
00:34:30.655 --> 00:34:31.395
in Venezuela
385
00:34:31.695 --> 00:34:32.994
and you're receiving donations
386
00:34:33.750 --> 00:34:36.170
in Venezuela, and you're concerned about
387
00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:38.170
the Venezuelan regime
388
00:34:38.790 --> 00:34:40.250
tracking you on chain
389
00:34:40.765 --> 00:34:41.984
when you're using Bitcoin.
390
00:34:42.765 --> 00:34:43.265
Does
391
00:34:43.965 --> 00:34:44.465
Samurais
392
00:34:44.845 --> 00:34:46.145
light client offering
393
00:34:46.845 --> 00:34:48.705
provide a benefit to those users?
394
00:34:50.310 --> 00:34:50.810
Potentially.
395
00:34:51.910 --> 00:34:56.150
And also it could be harming those users as well, like, seriously badly. And,
396
00:34:56.605 --> 00:35:02.944
given the analogy I made earlier, which is if you think you're naked and you're stealing stuff from a supermarket and everyone can see what you're doing,
397
00:35:03.244 --> 00:35:06.385
that's awful in comparison to you knowing people can see you.
398
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:17.335
So it might be better not to have engaged in privacy at all. Hang on. I think I don't think we have a good time to do it. I wanna I wanna finish my thought process with mechanic. Sure. Mechanic, if
399
00:35:17.875 --> 00:35:19.015
does do you still
400
00:35:19.395 --> 00:35:28.330
do you still feel that way if the wallet is telling you that you're trusting Samurais server on boot up and explains the trade off to you?
401
00:35:30.605 --> 00:35:33.724
No. I I well, yes. I feel that way.
402
00:35:34.125 --> 00:35:38.224
Even with full awareness of the fact that you have to trust Sunrise Server,
403
00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:57.185
it's still I would still criticize the design of it and the fact that it's possible in the first place, but obviously that's my preference that they would warn you and make you as, like, I think people should be able to use VPNs. Right? I think people should be able to use samurai in this way. My critique is mainly that it's never characterized.
404
00:35:57.819 --> 00:35:58.720
It's a different
405
00:35:59.099 --> 00:36:04.880
kettle of fish altogether. Using your own samurai with your own node is a different model than using,
406
00:36:05.339 --> 00:36:11.155
their server. It's not an simply an improvement to use your own node. It's a different set of issues.
407
00:36:11.535 --> 00:36:15.875
Like, my analogy for it is, like, you wanna access a website,
408
00:36:16.390 --> 00:36:31.015
like some streaming service at hulu.com or something, and it only lets Americans use it. So you use a VPN and you go you hop on an American IP address, and then you can watch TV. Hooray. But that's not like, a guy in Iran or something trying to,
409
00:36:31.635 --> 00:36:33.255
gain privacy from an adversarial
410
00:36:33.555 --> 00:36:39.360
government. Right? They're gonna use the Tor network. They're not gonna use a VPN. Why? Because a VPN is potentially just a honeypot
411
00:36:40.140 --> 00:36:46.625
and could be worse than if you just used your raw IP address. So this, to bring it back to samurai, to me feels like
412
00:36:47.085 --> 00:36:55.820
if you want to deposit some coins in some, you know, putrid institution like BlockFi that will censor stuff that comes from certain places.
413
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.980
What you would do if you have a blacklisted UTXO
414
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:01.500
is you can use samurai,
415
00:37:02.075 --> 00:37:24.105
without a node. Right? Because you can break the link between them, and then the service has no idea that you're coming from a blacklisted UTXO. It's good for that because they're not really bothered about doing a proper investigation, just like Hulu aren't bothered with confirming that you're really in America or not. They're not gonna go to that length. But Hulu is a very different threat model from NSA or government agencies in general. They're different things.
416
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:28.920
Sorry. I went a bit on track there.
417
00:37:30.740 --> 00:37:39.435
So, Zelko, you had a problem with my analogy? No. Not your analogy. You're my I have a problem with analogy. It was a thought process. Yeah. No. Your thought process was fine.
418
00:37:40.455 --> 00:37:47.920
Yeah. I I do like it. I just don't think that it's frank. My my, like, issue is they keep framing. It's it's the wrong framing when you're saying,
419
00:37:48.675 --> 00:37:50.215
people would run into a,
420
00:37:51.635 --> 00:37:57.095
like, if you're if you were told that you're naked in a supermarket or that you can run naked in a supermarket because you're invisible.
421
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.380
That's that's seriously absurd.
422
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:32.599
Because, 1, like, on top of that so all the warnings, right, you're like, okay. Well, one person can see me if they were, like, naked in a supermarket when they wear these special goggles because they can they're the only ones that can see me run naked. Right? So they're the only ones that can see me invisible rather because that's that was your thing. So only one person can see me invisible. Right? But if they share those goggles with someone else, then another person could see that I was doing it. Right? Not everyone's going to see that I was doing that, but only the people that have the goggles. That's the that would be a better framing of your analogy
423
00:38:33.060 --> 00:38:40.955
and you saying that, like, you're gonna do some, like, crazy thing because you think that ever no one can see you. But, really, you know that one person can see you. Right?
424
00:38:41.975 --> 00:38:50.160
So to me, if you're gonna frame that argument I I just I still don't understand why we were talking about someone Sure. Run around naked. Not really my thing, but, like,
425
00:38:51.099 --> 00:38:53.180
you brought up something that I will touch on.
426
00:38:53.900 --> 00:38:57.115
You said it's a different model, samurai server versus
427
00:38:57.415 --> 00:38:58.555
running our own node.
428
00:38:59.415 --> 00:39:03.355
How how is that the case? Like, if I pulled up 2 transact 2 Whirlpool transactions,
429
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:06.000
Right? One that had
430
00:39:06.620 --> 00:39:14.065
a you know, maybe I know that there's a maybe I ran a light wallet, and I I mixed it. Right? And then another one was a,
431
00:39:14.925 --> 00:39:17.345
you know, another mix that I ran from my dojo.
432
00:39:18.285 --> 00:39:28.110
Are you gonna be able to tell the difference? If you look at if I just gave you a transaction ID, would you be able to tell me that this is samurai wall this is the samurai server 1 and this is the dojo 1?
433
00:39:30.095 --> 00:39:46.865
No. But that's not my issue. But that but that's what you're saying, though. You're saying they're 2 different models, and they're not. Like, you're saying that you don't gain these privacies that people would transaction transact differently, and then you're also forgetting a totally different threat model that a bunch of people in the chat have actually brought up, and I can't see them anymore
434
00:39:47.165 --> 00:39:53.185
to to read them word for word. But, you know, running a full node on like, all the time versus a,
435
00:39:53.565 --> 00:39:55.585
using a light wallet in someone else's server,
436
00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:03.420
Right? That also like, having all of that data pulling all the time, right, is going to be a trigger to to
437
00:40:04.025 --> 00:40:04.525
outside
438
00:40:05.145 --> 00:40:06.125
observers, right, versus
439
00:40:06.585 --> 00:40:11.885
if you're using that light wallet. In some countries, it's more of a risk to run the node than it is to use a light wallet.
440
00:40:13.070 --> 00:40:17.150
So, like, you know, this this idea that you have that, like, everyone needs to have
441
00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:20.610
like, I would love it if everyone ran a node, but that's that's,
442
00:40:21.065 --> 00:40:25.405
one, it's not realistic to the world scenario that certain people live in.
443
00:40:25.785 --> 00:40:26.525
And 2,
444
00:40:27.225 --> 00:40:34.110
when you take that and you extrapolate to also block filters and people in shitty countries that are I guess, it's not a shitty country if you live there. I'm sorry.
445
00:40:34.730 --> 00:40:38.235
But in these underdeveloped countries, and you are trying to
446
00:40:38.635 --> 00:40:40.575
download block fill like, bloom filters
447
00:40:41.275 --> 00:40:46.895
to pull all of your information, which takes forever anyways, then on top of that, you have the these incredibly
448
00:40:47.195 --> 00:40:48.015
deep wallets,
449
00:40:48.460 --> 00:40:49.680
you know, 10,010,000
450
00:40:50.619 --> 00:40:51.119
plus,
451
00:40:52.460 --> 00:40:53.200
deep wallets.
452
00:40:53.500 --> 00:40:55.599
Like, I have one that's new, and it's at 10,000.
453
00:40:56.060 --> 00:40:56.560
So
454
00:40:57.825 --> 00:40:58.805
10,000 plus,
455
00:40:59.505 --> 00:41:10.350
UTXOs, and I have to wait for the bloom the bloom filters to come through. And it doesn't work for all the different address types. Well, I'm sorry. Like, that's that's silly. Like, I don't know why that's even mentioned.
456
00:41:11.530 --> 00:41:19.135
But, yeah, it's not 2 different models because they literally provide the same exact transaction. And no one using it, no one no third party
457
00:41:19.435 --> 00:41:20.255
can sit
458
00:41:20.635 --> 00:41:25.454
and look at the blockchain and tell me and because that's what this is about. It's about, do you get blockchain,
459
00:41:26.510 --> 00:41:29.010
transactional privacy? You do. Right?
460
00:41:29.310 --> 00:41:34.035
If you somehow if somehow you were using Samwise server and your shit got like,
461
00:41:34.914 --> 00:41:45.779
their server got hacked, like, then you should take the appropriate steps, which should basically should be moving your funds if you didn't already spend them. Move your funds. Yeah. Right to the index club, right, and back at Vidyoja.
462
00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:47.059
But, like,
463
00:41:47.359 --> 00:41:48.980
everything else right?
464
00:41:49.680 --> 00:42:00.215
Wait. But let me Zolka, let me ask you. How would you know that they got hacked? Would are you just relying on them telling us? What do I trust to disclose something of that severity?
465
00:42:00.835 --> 00:42:01.335
Yes.
466
00:42:02.900 --> 00:42:04.200
But what if they don't?
467
00:42:05.060 --> 00:42:06.120
Then my
468
00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:08.520
like, I had that much trust in them
469
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:10.920
just like you guys would disclose
470
00:42:11.515 --> 00:42:18.654
anything, like, similar to that as well. Right? Like, people buying stuff. I mean, we both we both are in companies that sell nodes.
471
00:42:19.194 --> 00:42:21.135
If if our server got hacked,
472
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:25.940
would you not do the moral obligation? Wouldn't you have a moral obligation to tell your users. Correct?
473
00:42:26.720 --> 00:42:27.280
Like, that's
474
00:42:27.839 --> 00:42:32.585
of course, I'm going to trust them. If they didn't if they didn't, then then, yeah, that's on me.
475
00:42:32.885 --> 00:42:33.625
Right? Like,
476
00:42:34.245 --> 00:42:39.545
if it like, I made I took that chance. I took I accepted that that risk
477
00:42:40.200 --> 00:42:41.819
of using a light wallet.
478
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:50.445
They I mean, like, not to mention that they're one of the few I'm not commission. They don't have a few, like Right. Developers that has a canary.
479
00:42:51.065 --> 00:42:55.965
Right? So if that canary is not updated, then I know that that they've been compromised.
480
00:42:56.425 --> 00:43:04.690
But we have aren't canary at start 9, and it makes me laugh every day because I can't believe anyone actually takes these things seriously. You're expecting
481
00:43:04.990 --> 00:43:06.369
the FBI to go,
482
00:43:06.685 --> 00:43:14.305
hey. And by the way, you can't tell anyone that we've approached you. And you go, uh-uh. We've got a warrant canary. We're gonna take it down. And they go, dagnabbit.
483
00:43:15.109 --> 00:43:16.250
You got us again.
484
00:43:16.630 --> 00:43:19.930
Work. Oh, warrant canary. That's not how warrant canary and carries work.
485
00:43:21.190 --> 00:43:24.145
Look. If you take it, you're supposed to be able to
486
00:43:25.645 --> 00:43:32.830
Yes. I no. I know how Warren Canaries don't work. They are security theater. Okay. But how do they work? How are they supposed to work?
487
00:43:34.330 --> 00:43:38.830
In theory, they're supposed to get around the fact that you can't disclose that you've been approached by law enforcement,
488
00:43:39.145 --> 00:43:50.089
but you can remove something that says you've never been approached, and that gets you around the fact that you're not actually telling people something. You're removing a statement, which is not in and of itself speech. So
489
00:43:50.630 --> 00:43:52.890
you're saying that you would modify the warrant canary?
490
00:43:53.910 --> 00:43:59.545
No. Isn't the way warrant canary is The warrant canaries would work is that I if I got approached, I wouldn't re I wouldn't renew
491
00:44:00.165 --> 00:44:02.325
my Warren Canary. Yeah. So in my Warren Canaries
492
00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:05.065
update. You constantly update Warren Canaries.
493
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:12.860
Kinetics and ideas that But in the months, no one gives any attention to Warren Kinaries because Samura themselves made a Warren Kinary that says if we ever incorporate,
494
00:44:13.315 --> 00:44:22.135
I think their wording was anything that isn't Bitcoin, we've been hacked. Then they implemented Monero. Implement Monero. And they ordered. But they didn't implement Monero 1,
495
00:44:22.570 --> 00:44:39.185
2. Like, this is like, my I know I said on Twitter, like, you're out of element. This is one of those times. Like, you're out of element. They have not implemented there's no Monero in the wallet. They've never implemented anything that Yeah. Yes. That, like, puts Monero on the wallet. K? So, like, when they're talking about,
496
00:44:39.930 --> 00:44:42.830
when they're saying that, they they actually mean putting
497
00:44:43.210 --> 00:44:44.830
a a an alternate
498
00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:45.710
coin
499
00:44:46.089 --> 00:44:47.070
into the wallet.
500
00:44:47.395 --> 00:44:50.055
Sure. Right? Okay. Let's go look at their warrant canary
501
00:44:50.355 --> 00:44:54.440
and understand what they're actually saying. And warrant canaries work by saying that you're not going to
502
00:44:54.839 --> 00:44:57.099
reinstate or renew that warrant canary
503
00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:03.180
after you've been approached. And there's not that's not a, hey. I have to go and tell everybody. That's just a silent
504
00:45:03.555 --> 00:45:10.055
means. Right? Weren't a canary in the coal mine. It is a way to disclose to the community and all the users
505
00:45:10.835 --> 00:45:13.015
we've been compromised or something happened,
506
00:45:13.540 --> 00:45:20.120
right, and we didn't update it. Okay. But Because they can take your social media. They can take everything else, but they can't force you to renew,
507
00:45:20.580 --> 00:45:21.080
right,
508
00:45:21.925 --> 00:45:27.945
to renew that that same warrant canary. Let me just jump in here real quick. I think both of you agree
509
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:29.260
that
510
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.099
you have to trust samurai
511
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:35.820
to under to know that there's a breach and to disclose that there's a breach.
512
00:45:36.845 --> 00:45:40.305
Mhmm. I think both of you guys agree on that statement. Correct?
513
00:45:41.085 --> 00:45:45.350
Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Whether that's through a Warren Canary or through a Telegram message out to a trusted
514
00:45:54.915 --> 00:45:58.855
and it comes down the the reality is that this whole thing comes down to to the client portfolio.
515
00:45:59.395 --> 00:46:00.615
This comes down to people,
516
00:46:01.875 --> 00:46:02.375
needing
517
00:46:02.675 --> 00:46:03.735
they need a,
518
00:46:05.140 --> 00:46:06.599
they they need the privacy
519
00:46:07.220 --> 00:46:12.280
from, you know, from their government or from what whoever else, right, from law enforcement, and
520
00:46:12.805 --> 00:46:17.145
they're willing to accept that. And I know that because I've, like, specifically talked
521
00:46:17.445 --> 00:46:18.745
to tons of people,
522
00:46:19.205 --> 00:46:20.505
right, from other countries
523
00:46:20.805 --> 00:46:22.585
that don't that that
524
00:46:23.990 --> 00:46:28.490
do not trust their government with anything. I mean, most people don't trust their government. They're Bitcoiners now, but,
525
00:46:29.030 --> 00:46:36.955
they specifically they fear the government more, right, than this, you know, crazy weird threat model. K? So,
526
00:46:38.215 --> 00:46:42.235
like, people in South America don't give 2 shits about it, and it costs more,
527
00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:45.330
and it's more obvious that they're doing something nefarious,
528
00:46:45.790 --> 00:46:47.410
right, or suspicious rather,
529
00:46:47.950 --> 00:46:53.665
if they are have this huge influx of data being pulled at their house because they're running a node.
530
00:46:53.965 --> 00:46:59.790
Right? They're downloading the blockchain like that. Those are things that they worry that their government will be more keen to
531
00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:03.690
than using some mobile wallet, right, in a light light wallet mode.
532
00:47:05.370 --> 00:47:22.810
So, like, when we talk about that and and even, like, you know, you can you can extrapolate to anybody that's, like, you know, an uncle Jim. It that's a threat model. I don't care. Like, you we can say whatever we want. Uncle Jim's great, but is it a threat model? Sure. If we're gonna play play the game, then play it all the way out. You know? Like,
533
00:47:23.175 --> 00:47:25.915
every like, your your idea is that,
534
00:47:27.974 --> 00:47:35.319
is that everyone like, every wallet should be ran by your own node only. Because if you're not saying that, then every other wallet is is also fucked.
535
00:47:36.180 --> 00:47:44.944
No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying you need to run a node if you want to use samurai in a way where the Chaumian blinding is not a larp.
536
00:47:46.125 --> 00:47:47.025
Is not what?
537
00:47:48.365 --> 00:47:54.529
A larp, l a r p. Sorry. My English accent is sort of off. So it's LARPing. Right? Because
538
00:47:54.910 --> 00:48:00.845
what they don't know, those other people, if they didn't have the chimney and blinding, which for those of you who don't understand, that is how,
539
00:48:01.704 --> 00:48:05.404
that's the coordinator, the blinded coordinator that's creating the transaction.
540
00:48:06.030 --> 00:48:10.690
Right? So and you you can tell that this happens in your Samura wallet. Right?
541
00:48:11.070 --> 00:48:22.035
Because after your your mix right? Before you mix, you have an IP address. After the mix, you it says you have a new Tor sorry. You have a Tor identity. And after that, you get a new fresh Tor identity after the mix. So
542
00:48:23.010 --> 00:48:28.450
what you're saying is that that tour or that coordinator is a LARP because it has
543
00:48:30.145 --> 00:48:33.205
it might have a user in that 5 person mix
544
00:48:33.745 --> 00:48:34.245
that
545
00:48:34.705 --> 00:48:38.085
is using a light wallet. That's that's the stance that you're taking?
546
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:42.160
No. Not necessarily. So you're just saying you're just
547
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:54.075
And the coordinate hold on. I'll characterize it myself so that it doesn't get wrongly framed. I'm saying that having show me and blinding in a setup where you have to trust the coordinator
548
00:48:54.535 --> 00:48:57.110
with your ex pub in the first place, you're
549
00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:00.150
you're obscuring something,
550
00:49:00.450 --> 00:49:03.990
and you're revealing it at the same time, which is stupid.
551
00:49:05.385 --> 00:49:10.045
Why bother obscuring it if you're going to reveal it? Not every user is a light wall user.
552
00:49:11.464 --> 00:49:16.080
I'm not talking about the other user. It it has to go in for all the anyone that's putting in the input.
553
00:49:16.700 --> 00:49:19.440
Right? Anyone that's that is partaking in the mix
554
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.040
has to get blinded.
555
00:49:21.435 --> 00:49:34.060
I guess they don't have to. Right? They could just choose to not have a blind coordinator. They could just have a a clear and obvious coordinator, but they clearly don't do that. Right? Because that wouldn't Oh, they're blinded from each other. It's blinded from them
556
00:49:34.520 --> 00:49:37.820
and from everyone. The only time that they don't that that doesn't
557
00:49:38.135 --> 00:49:46.555
correlate over, that that what my statement isn't true is for this case for the light wall because they see that the UTXO after. Right? But
558
00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:49.900
what you're what you're saying, right, is that
559
00:49:50.279 --> 00:49:59.175
why why do the the blind transact it's because not every wallet in there. They're not picking people. They're not saying, like, oh, this is gonna be a all light wallet,
560
00:50:00.435 --> 00:50:02.295
a samurai server mix.
561
00:50:02.710 --> 00:50:07.289
Right? So From the perspective of the user that is running a light wallet,
562
00:50:07.589 --> 00:50:10.545
they told me an element becomes something they just can't rely on.
563
00:50:12.224 --> 00:50:17.560
But, like, you're not I I don't understand your what your point is. Like, you're trying to say what? Like, that
564
00:50:18.120 --> 00:50:19.500
that the blind coordinator
565
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:21.340
doesn't matter to these people?
566
00:50:22.600 --> 00:50:23.980
It doesn't matter to anyone?
567
00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:26.700
Like, I I don't think I don't understand because
568
00:50:27.345 --> 00:50:46.530
like, well, it uses mixed with Dojo users. So I don't understand your point. For the people that are using Dojo and Sparrow and all that because they are mixing with people that aren't really mixing or at least aren't getting proper privacy from their mixes. How do they not? See that you keep saying they're not getting proper this is where I I, like, get frustrated because you keep saying a proper
569
00:50:47.475 --> 00:50:50.055
proper privacy from the mix. They are.
570
00:50:50.355 --> 00:50:57.700
They are. Until the day until like, you can come back later and tell me later on, like, I told you so because SamRack gets hacked. But until that happens,
571
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:02.020
you gotta tell me how on the blockchain, how these people do not get privacy
572
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:06.180
from going through Whirlpool, whether they're on LightWallet or Dojo.
573
00:51:06.625 --> 00:51:13.605
Right? They or Sparrow or whoever. They're all they're all mixing together. It's one liquidity pool. I don't understand why, guys I don't understand
574
00:51:14.065 --> 00:51:14.565
how
575
00:51:14.869 --> 00:51:35.510
in the immediate moment right now, there's never been a hack. Right? There's never been a hack. There's never been anyone arrested using Samura Wallet. There's never been anyone, like, taken down because they use trace through samurai wallet. So I need to know how this is an immediate threat model and that these people are right now losing privacy. They're not getting privacy when they're going through Whirlpool
576
00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:38.070
as a light wallet user because
577
00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:39.590
everything else
578
00:51:40.050 --> 00:51:53.260
that that if I look at any sort of Whirlpool transaction, I can't fucking tell if it's if it's a LightWallet or if it's a Dojo user. So I need to know how they are losing right now. Like, not not in the fairy tale situation.
579
00:51:53.560 --> 00:51:55.500
Right now, how are they losing privacy?
580
00:51:55.825 --> 00:51:57.925
Because that's the statement that I have an issue with.
581
00:51:59.025 --> 00:52:03.160
Yeah. Sure. But, I mean, you're saying they've never been hacked, and I'm saying how do you know?
582
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:08.859
Because if you don't think that Ceramic would have gotten hacked, number 1, we would have seen arrests. Correct?
583
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:13.615
Why else why else would you hack a privacy wallet server?
584
00:52:14.555 --> 00:52:16.415
For the same reason you let people
585
00:52:16.875 --> 00:52:18.735
stay inside criminal organizations
586
00:52:19.115 --> 00:52:26.280
as rest. So just to sit there and and let them continue to make money. And, like, you don't think that after all of this,
587
00:52:26.580 --> 00:52:27.700
like, you really think that
588
00:52:28.555 --> 00:52:35.214
I mean, like, I gotta say, if you if you think that Samwise Wallet I mean, basically, what you're saying now is that Samwise Fed,
589
00:52:36.210 --> 00:52:39.110
That they're comp that you think that they're potentially compromised
590
00:52:39.970 --> 00:52:45.190
and that they would just continue to develop and operate as status quo. Right?
591
00:52:45.795 --> 00:52:48.595
I yeah. But then Guys, I think That's we've already
592
00:52:49.555 --> 00:52:53.255
insane. We need to pull this back because I think we've already all agreed
593
00:52:53.795 --> 00:52:54.295
that
594
00:52:55.279 --> 00:52:56.980
that you have to trust samurai
595
00:52:57.359 --> 00:53:00.180
to know that they're compromised and to admit that they're compromised.
596
00:53:01.359 --> 00:53:05.765
We we this is part of the trust model. I thought we've all agreed on this already.
597
00:53:06.705 --> 00:53:08.405
Yeah. I definitely agree with that.
598
00:53:08.865 --> 00:53:09.365
The
599
00:53:09.745 --> 00:53:13.310
I wanna I wanna bring it back to another real world scenario
600
00:53:14.170 --> 00:53:14.990
for a mechanic,
601
00:53:17.130 --> 00:53:18.350
and then we can continue.
602
00:53:19.130 --> 00:53:20.590
So you're you're
603
00:53:21.285 --> 00:53:23.305
you're an employee in Spain,
604
00:53:23.925 --> 00:53:32.170
and you're getting paid by your boss. You only have a mobile phone. You receive your payment to Samurais. You don't use your own node. You use Whirlpool
605
00:53:32.790 --> 00:53:33.930
collaborative transactions
606
00:53:34.630 --> 00:53:37.450
so that your boss doesn't know your spending habits.
607
00:53:37.829 --> 00:53:39.050
Is that an improvement
608
00:53:39.555 --> 00:53:42.375
over not having samurai like client mode?
609
00:53:43.155 --> 00:53:55.080
Yeah. Absolutely. Like, there are certain circumstances in which you're comfortable with a VPN knowing your browsing habits, but not your ISP. And that's exactly comparable to using Samurai instead of just doing everything on chain.
610
00:53:58.395 --> 00:53:59.055
I mean,
611
00:53:59.595 --> 00:54:06.095
when I say on chain, I mean, without any sort of privacy practices at all. So wouldn't that warrant the light client mode existing?
612
00:54:07.770 --> 00:54:13.790
As long as the risks are explained to users? Yeah. I'm I'm happy to walk back from my original,
613
00:54:14.330 --> 00:54:26.829
post on Twitter and say there are reasons to use it. Just like I would say there are reasons to use a VPN. I just don't want people thinking that using Tor is better than using a VPN. It's totally different.
614
00:54:27.369 --> 00:54:37.505
It's not, it it changes the whole model of what you're doing, and they are in different worlds even though they look similar. I think it I think the analogy holds up pretty tight. Like,
615
00:54:37.825 --> 00:54:38.325
samurai,
616
00:54:38.945 --> 00:54:44.470
like client usage, is like using a VPN. It crudely gets around stuff, but you're moving trust,
617
00:54:45.410 --> 00:54:47.430
to something else rather than
618
00:54:48.370 --> 00:55:09.415
getting rid of trust, which is obviously better. It would be great if we didn't have to trust samurai at all and still be able to use light nodes. That would I'm sure you agree, Zelco, that if you could use samurai without a full node and didn't have to trust them at all and not just go, they've probably never been hacked. Like, it would be a lot better if it was like, yeah. If they got hacked, it doesn't matter because they don't have any valuable information.
619
00:55:09.954 --> 00:55:12.775
That would obviously be better. Right? I'm sure you agree with that.
620
00:55:14.115 --> 00:55:17.930
I mean, like, is there sure. Like, if there was no
621
00:55:18.230 --> 00:55:19.610
if there was no server
622
00:55:20.230 --> 00:55:22.395
and everyone you know, they had
623
00:55:22.715 --> 00:55:23.775
a different model,
624
00:55:24.395 --> 00:55:31.615
maybe. I mean, I would have to see what other potential options there are. And right now, there are no other potential options that serve
625
00:55:32.010 --> 00:55:33.390
the mass amount of users,
626
00:55:33.690 --> 00:55:37.390
right, to serve the people that can't that can't or don't run nodes,
627
00:55:38.329 --> 00:55:40.170
but still need privacy. So the
628
00:55:40.815 --> 00:55:55.200
until there's a solution that works, which, as I've already said, bloom filters would not work. And I know that SamRite Wallet would love for there be a solution for that not to be there. Like, they wouldn't develop the stuff that they have. They wouldn't develop Dojo if they wanted people to just stay on their server.
629
00:55:55.580 --> 00:56:02.955
Right? Like, it it's it costs more, right, for them to run a server and beef up at the server, add more,
630
00:56:04.215 --> 00:56:05.355
add more, like,
631
00:56:05.815 --> 00:56:13.349
like, hardware to their server, right, so that they can provide for all of these different people. Their server cost would go down if they didn't have to provide
632
00:56:13.890 --> 00:56:23.185
a server to people. Right? So it's better for them. They like that people run Dojo. They've always told since they released Dojo 1 point o, and I'm glad that I've been around since then,
633
00:56:23.565 --> 00:56:27.345
they've always wanted people to just run their node or to run Dojo.
634
00:56:27.670 --> 00:56:29.690
Like, they don't want people to be on there.
635
00:56:30.069 --> 00:56:37.295
Everyone and that's why and you see it. Right? You see it because stuff is set up that way. All, obviously, all the warning signs. Right?
636
00:56:38.174 --> 00:56:41.395
But, like, then you go into, like, the actual remixes in Whirlpool.
637
00:56:41.855 --> 00:56:43.155
People who are remixing
638
00:56:43.694 --> 00:56:44.434
are generally
639
00:56:45.135 --> 00:56:46.355
who? They're generally
640
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.620
people who are running a full node. Right? Because then you can just let it sit 247,
641
00:56:52.160 --> 00:57:02.135
and that's how you get those remixes because it's just running in the background. Right? If you have to keep it open on your phone, you're not gonna you're not gonna get mixes. It's very rare that people get mobile mixes,
642
00:57:02.595 --> 00:57:06.330
right, because of how big the liquidity pool is. So,
643
00:57:06.710 --> 00:57:07.210
like,
644
00:57:07.910 --> 00:57:08.570
to me,
645
00:57:09.030 --> 00:57:15.050
everything indicates that they want they they would love for a solution to be there that would actually work and provide the same
646
00:57:15.465 --> 00:57:18.125
level, same user experience that they have right now.
647
00:57:18.585 --> 00:57:19.085
Right?
648
00:57:19.785 --> 00:57:20.525
I I can
649
00:57:20.985 --> 00:57:22.685
safely attest without being
650
00:57:23.080 --> 00:57:23.820
being, like, in
651
00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:25.340
on their team
652
00:57:25.720 --> 00:57:29.500
that, of course, they would want something that would work better, but right now, there isn't.
653
00:57:30.015 --> 00:57:30.835
Okay. So,
654
00:57:31.695 --> 00:57:32.675
first of all,
655
00:57:33.135 --> 00:57:36.515
I said it earlier, but we were talking over each other. I just wanna clarify.
656
00:57:38.220 --> 00:57:43.040
Bloom filters are old tech. It's different than block filters. But block filters,
657
00:57:43.900 --> 00:57:47.835
as it currently stands today, are too heavy to use efficiently on mobile.
658
00:57:48.935 --> 00:57:49.595
I think
659
00:57:50.775 --> 00:57:51.995
you both agree
660
00:57:52.775 --> 00:57:53.275
that
661
00:57:54.215 --> 00:57:54.695
if if
662
00:57:55.740 --> 00:58:00.080
you both agree that in certain situations, if the trade offs are made clear to users,
663
00:58:02.220 --> 00:58:03.680
the light client mode,
664
00:58:04.055 --> 00:58:07.435
the the ability for mobile users to to use
665
00:58:07.895 --> 00:58:10.875
transactional privacy tools to get additional privacy
666
00:58:12.180 --> 00:58:13.720
under a certain threat model,
667
00:58:14.820 --> 00:58:16.840
is valuable to certain users.
668
00:58:17.140 --> 00:58:20.680
And then I think you both agree that in a perfect world,
669
00:58:21.255 --> 00:58:25.195
that light mode, that mode without a user using their own node
670
00:58:25.895 --> 00:58:26.395
would
671
00:58:26.775 --> 00:58:27.755
not disclose
672
00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:33.960
transaction information to samurai servers. I think you both agree on both those statements.
673
00:58:35.700 --> 00:58:37.480
Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, what,
674
00:58:38.325 --> 00:58:42.265
throwing back to what you said a minute ago or actually quite far back with
675
00:58:43.924 --> 00:58:48.220
your question of, you know, if it comes with sufficient warnings and stuff. I mean, I don't
676
00:58:48.600 --> 00:58:51.420
know, what the warning is on Samurai exactly, but
677
00:58:52.040 --> 00:58:59.305
my thought on that is that if the warning exists that says, oh, if you're not gonna use Dojo and you're going to you're going to trust our server,
678
00:59:00.325 --> 00:59:04.105
in doing so, if there's ever a breach on our side or if we're bad actors,
679
00:59:04.770 --> 00:59:07.190
the privacy you have here can be completely undone.
680
00:59:07.730 --> 00:59:08.470
I just don't
681
00:59:08.849 --> 00:59:12.335
that would be the warning I would put on there, but I just don't think
682
00:59:12.895 --> 00:59:24.710
I would never develop the software and put that warning on there and just go, should I just get rid of this feature altogether? Because the fact that it's so bad means I'm basically telling people not to use it. Like, that to me is a
683
00:59:25.170 --> 00:59:47.270
a a a fair reflection of what you're offered when you use it with a light client. And I think it's you say, Zalco, that they don't wanna be, hosting people all the time. They don't want people to be using their server. They want them to use Dojo. I'm like, okay. Great. Then we agree. Get rid of the feature that allows you to use a light client at all. You can't. Like, you you can't just get rid of something that negates out,
684
00:59:48.305 --> 00:59:51.045
like, potentially 1,000 or however many.
685
00:59:51.424 --> 00:59:55.125
The a mass amount of users who are using light wallet because they have to.
686
00:59:55.664 --> 01:00:01.010
Right? You're taking away people's ability to to have on chain privacy that we've already discussed,
687
01:00:01.470 --> 01:00:01.970
right,
688
01:00:02.750 --> 01:00:03.250
because
689
01:00:03.630 --> 01:00:07.525
of what it looks like, right, because of, you know, this this
690
01:00:07.984 --> 01:00:08.484
niche,
691
01:00:10.065 --> 01:00:10.565
potential,
692
01:00:10.865 --> 01:00:15.845
like, potential thing to happen, which which they disclose. So, like, I don't know. I
693
01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:19.500
I, like, I don't see why like, I I don't
694
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:23.339
I don't see the benefit of taking away a tool
695
01:00:23.665 --> 01:00:24.165
from
696
01:00:24.625 --> 01:00:25.125
people
697
01:00:25.425 --> 01:00:31.125
who need it. And that's really what I mean is need it. Right? We have a lot of people who
698
01:00:31.710 --> 01:00:34.610
who try to who, like, wanna take privacy seriously,
699
01:00:35.070 --> 01:00:41.674
but they don't actively need it. And then there are people who need it. There are people who live in countries where they need financial
700
01:00:42.855 --> 01:00:48.234
transaction privacy transactional privacy. Like, they need it versus, like, I'd like to have privacy.
701
01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:56.400
Right? So, like and I'm not saying I want everyone to be private, but, like, there are people who, like, life and death need need these kind of tools. Right?
702
01:00:56.755 --> 01:00:59.975
So you don't need So what so so as I've said
703
01:01:00.355 --> 01:01:01.175
as I've said,
704
01:01:01.635 --> 01:01:06.570
right, there are plenty of of other trade offs to running the node that's just
705
01:01:07.450 --> 01:01:18.785
as as risky as trusting Samura Wallet. They understand the threat. That's that's why people still use it. Like, if you think that, like, people who are in those risky situations will look at the trail.
706
01:01:19.405 --> 01:01:30.040
There. I'm saying that if privacy is that important, and I agree with you it is, it's life and death in some situations. The last thing you should do is be trusting a third party with that information. But it's not a third party.
707
01:01:30.485 --> 01:01:43.090
It's them. You're trusting the wallet that you're using. The wallet could be nefarious. Like, any any other wallet, like, I could use Not a problem. I could use the name of wallet. About the fact that people are using a binary that they can't reproduce and be build, pull from. Okay.
708
01:01:43.470 --> 01:01:49.535
So then we'll go to a different foot. Do we wanna transition to that one? Well, if you like, but it's a different issue.
709
01:01:50.315 --> 01:01:50.815
Sure.
710
01:01:51.275 --> 01:01:54.575
It's a different it's a different, you know, goalpost. Sure.
711
01:01:56.109 --> 01:01:58.849
Well, I don't know. Because, like, I've built it from source,
712
01:01:59.550 --> 01:02:05.410
like, using like, actually using the tools and built it from sources, YouTube videos of people building it from source and reproducing the actual,
713
01:02:05.775 --> 01:02:09.635
APK. And then there's people that actually understand how Google APKs work.
714
01:02:10.095 --> 01:02:12.035
Right? And how the reproducibility
715
01:02:12.575 --> 01:02:24.355
doesn't mean shit. And it's a really stupid conversation to even be having, to be honest. Because if you really don't trust the the Google APK and you wanna use the the correct APK, right, you just go to their source. You check their,
716
01:02:25.234 --> 01:02:26.775
you do a checksum on,
717
01:02:27.635 --> 01:02:31.494
their actual release from their website, and you download from their website,
718
01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:41.214
and you check the code and make sure it verified just like you would for any other desktop wallet or anything else that you use. Right? So you could do that, and you would have the reproducibility
719
01:02:41.595 --> 01:02:44.015
that that you wanna complain about. Right?
720
01:02:44.714 --> 01:02:45.535
And, otherwise,
721
01:02:46.635 --> 01:02:49.055
like, the like, this conversation is totally separate.
722
01:02:49.569 --> 01:02:50.150
I agree.
723
01:02:50.849 --> 01:02:52.069
Okay. Because
724
01:02:52.530 --> 01:02:53.030
reproducibility
725
01:02:53.890 --> 01:03:01.015
on a Google APK is the is the most bottom bottom of barrel thing, and it's been so over it's been so,
726
01:03:01.555 --> 01:03:05.095
such a shutdown conversation. Like, we've debunked that
727
01:03:05.395 --> 01:03:08.135
so many times. I've debunked this one so many times.
728
01:03:08.560 --> 01:03:12.420
It's it just blows my mind that, like, that that's why
729
01:03:13.600 --> 01:03:20.685
like, if if, like, my if my debate was enough and then we had to transition over to reproducibility, it's like, okay. Like,
730
01:03:21.945 --> 01:03:26.400
I mean, we can we can hit all the fun. I don't care. I've I've been doing this for a long time.
731
01:03:27.339 --> 01:03:27.839
But
732
01:03:28.140 --> 01:03:30.319
just understand, like, the reproducibility thing,
733
01:03:31.020 --> 01:03:32.460
is I I'm not saying
734
01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:36.785
and led by a person who has a personal vendetta,
735
01:03:37.245 --> 01:03:38.865
like, against against
736
01:03:39.245 --> 01:03:40.385
Samuari in particular.
737
01:03:40.765 --> 01:03:41.585
Right? But,
738
01:03:42.125 --> 01:04:11.795
it's old FUD, debunked FUD, and it's not even, like Right. Again, I wouldn't characterize my position as, wanting to throw FUD, and it comes as disingenuous and hateful and all that stuff despite my original tweet. What I want to do is love it and encourage people to use it, and I'm close to being able to do that. There's one feature that I think is doing more harm than good that if it could go, would be a net win for privacy in the whole thing. Like, I'm Yeah. As I said, let me like and celebrate a bunch of the decisions made in the development by samurai. I like, Sparrow.
739
01:04:12.335 --> 01:04:15.474
I like your project running Dojo. I like these things.
740
01:04:15.775 --> 01:04:24.880
What I have an issue with is one element of it and how it's characterized. And you've impressed upon me over and over again the life and death, the importance of privacy. And I'm saying,
741
01:04:25.180 --> 01:04:25.680
exactly.
742
01:04:26.135 --> 01:04:38.170
If privacy is that important and the difference can mean your death, then you can't ever tell people unserious solutions that might have an issue. Like, you need to be as forthright as possible. Like,
743
01:04:38.550 --> 01:04:41.130
there's no Which which they are. So
744
01:04:41.430 --> 01:04:44.865
the I mean, that they are that forthright. Like, that is that is
745
01:04:45.505 --> 01:04:56.880
well, like, I mean, that you can have your opinion, but you you've already said that you haven't seen the warning. You haven't seen any of the pop ups. So I encourage you to, you know, download the wallet, start a new wallet, try to connect to their server, and see
746
01:04:57.260 --> 01:04:59.359
all the all the warning signs that come up,
747
01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:05.484
in addition to the fact that there's, you know, been 0 arrests or 0 issues with any of it. Right? So,
748
01:05:09.260 --> 01:05:11.040
Yeah. I I, like, I
749
01:05:11.820 --> 01:05:15.040
had a I had this point, and then you threw me off with that last one. But,
750
01:05:16.515 --> 01:05:17.975
yeah, I'm I'm just
751
01:05:18.515 --> 01:05:19.575
still kinda baffled
752
01:05:20.115 --> 01:05:20.615
by
753
01:05:20.915 --> 01:05:22.455
the fact that we think that
754
01:05:23.450 --> 01:05:26.030
it needs to be a node backed only,
755
01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:32.270
because it it doesn't take away from anything that a third party sees. Like, it just
756
01:05:32.955 --> 01:05:36.975
a third party would need to actually have the information that you're talking about.
757
01:05:37.355 --> 01:05:41.120
Right? I want everybody to run a node. I hope everyone does. But,
758
01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:44.260
it's it's just like you said, it's
759
01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:48.180
it's not something that can actually work in all the countries.
760
01:05:48.640 --> 01:05:53.465
It's things that in other countries running the node could be the thing that gets you compromised,
761
01:05:55.045 --> 01:05:59.720
right, which we don't we like, you keep passing over. Right? So what do you tell those people?
762
01:06:00.500 --> 01:06:02.119
Like, that their their Internet,
763
01:06:02.500 --> 01:06:03.619
usage is is,
764
01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:07.880
what's called, monitored. What do you tell those people?
765
01:06:08.535 --> 01:06:09.515
Sucks and suck?
766
01:06:10.695 --> 01:06:14.955
No. I'm not saying that samurai with a light client doesn't have a valuable,
767
01:06:15.735 --> 01:06:18.500
place for people. But you can't use the the tools?
768
01:06:22.160 --> 01:06:23.860
Yeah. I don't have a problem with people.
769
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:32.244
The their threat model is if I run a node, I'm in trouble, but I need privacy anyway. Then, yeah, their best bet is likely somewhere
770
01:06:32.625 --> 01:06:33.925
with a not like client.
771
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:36.740
Okay. So, I mean, that
772
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:47.125
it's exactly what I've been arguing this whole time. Yeah. That I don't think so. People need it. Some people don't have a choice, so you can't take away. No use case, Zalco. I'm saying that
773
01:06:47.505 --> 01:06:54.780
just like using a VPN to get around geo blocking, it's not the same thing as using Tor. They're they're just not the same.
774
01:06:57.080 --> 01:06:57.580
Okay.
775
01:06:58.040 --> 01:06:58.540
So
776
01:06:59.000 --> 01:06:59.740
so now
777
01:07:00.040 --> 01:07:01.740
Samurai with Zoho is Tor,
778
01:07:02.675 --> 01:07:04.615
and samurai wallet is a VPN?
779
01:07:05.315 --> 01:07:05.815
Yeah.
780
01:07:06.195 --> 01:07:21.775
I really think that analogy holds pretty tight. Oh, by the way, this douchebag who just asked, sorry. That's his real name. Is Ronin Dugger available in the Start nine marketplace for one click install? I'm sensing some underlying tension here perhaps for business reasons. There isn't this is a I should say really clearly,
781
01:07:22.075 --> 01:07:35.350
I'm not talking for start 9 here. I'm talking, on behalf of just myself, and there are people in the Start 9 company that actively really like Dojo and want it as a part of the Start 9 stack. I don't know if it would make it into the official
782
01:07:35.955 --> 01:07:37.575
marketplace that we offer, but,
783
01:07:38.035 --> 01:07:41.735
you know, it would definitely be available in the community marketplaces
784
01:07:42.035 --> 01:07:43.575
that are, I guess, coming.
785
01:07:44.730 --> 01:07:46.109
Yeah. There there's no,
786
01:07:47.290 --> 01:07:52.190
business tensions, to be honest. If there was, there'd be there'd be a whole another thing.
787
01:07:54.285 --> 01:07:56.465
But we had we had that note debate before.
788
01:07:57.645 --> 01:07:59.345
Someone else was in online.
789
01:07:59.885 --> 01:08:02.465
Just to be clear to the podcast listeners,
790
01:08:03.390 --> 01:08:04.369
that that was
791
01:08:04.670 --> 01:08:06.930
that was a freak named this douchebag
792
01:08:07.230 --> 01:08:13.555
on Twitch that he responded to. I just want everyone to be aware of that. Yeah. I wasn't I wasn't a reminder to Velcro.
793
01:08:14.175 --> 01:08:18.915
Someone will talk to you as dot 9 open source. Depends on how you define it. Some people say technically
794
01:08:19.770 --> 01:08:20.270
No.
795
01:08:20.890 --> 01:08:28.090
Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Just say no. Just say no. It's okay. It's okay. We've been doing that help. Just don't
796
01:08:28.805 --> 01:08:31.065
I'll tell you that it's this is what's good available,
797
01:08:31.365 --> 01:08:34.985
so you don't need to trust any of the buyers. Available is not there.
798
01:08:35.525 --> 01:08:36.265
It's not
799
01:08:36.630 --> 01:08:42.489
it's not fully frost, but it is on a rolling window. So every few months, all the releases become full frost.
800
01:08:43.510 --> 01:08:48.585
Yeah. That's so it's not yeah. Okay. So I have Wait. We're not having this debate right now.
801
01:08:49.385 --> 01:08:49.885
If
802
01:08:50.345 --> 01:08:54.830
was not we had a very long conversation about this until dispatch 26.
803
01:08:55.690 --> 01:09:01.449
If anyone listening wants the answer to that question, just go back to Citadel dispatch 26, and it was very
804
01:09:02.775 --> 01:09:16.190
Yeah. Every different we have. But I'll tell you matter of factly what's what exists, which is the source code exists. Go use it. We'll help you build if you want. If that's not good enough for you, fair enough, but it it is what it is. I'm not trying to misrepresent it. Yeah.
805
01:09:16.650 --> 01:09:17.370
Yeah. It's
806
01:09:18.545 --> 01:09:19.585
okay. Great, boys.
807
01:09:20.865 --> 01:09:21.925
Look. I think
808
01:09:22.385 --> 01:09:26.325
I I I think everyone here is more or less on the same page,
809
01:09:29.220 --> 01:09:33.160
and I don't know if going further really is productive at at all,
810
01:09:34.260 --> 01:09:34.760
unless
811
01:09:35.265 --> 01:09:40.965
unless you guys have something specific you want to touch on here. But but my my understanding
812
01:09:41.345 --> 01:09:42.725
here after this hour
813
01:09:43.665 --> 01:09:44.165
is
814
01:09:45.310 --> 01:09:46.929
mobile privacy tools
815
01:09:47.790 --> 01:09:54.210
are are useful to users. It's good that we have mobile privacy tools. Some users aren't gonna be able to use their own node.
816
01:09:54.974 --> 01:09:59.635
Going forward, it would be best to minimize the amount of trust in any company
817
01:10:00.255 --> 01:10:04.880
when it comes to using those tools. But right now, it does require trust in Samura.
818
01:10:05.260 --> 01:10:08.400
Yeah. So good, better, best. Right? Like, good,
819
01:10:08.780 --> 01:10:13.395
use Bitcoin. Better, use Sami Wallet. Best, use Sami Wallet with,
820
01:10:15.215 --> 01:10:19.757
with your own Dojo. Right? Like, I think that's pretty straightforward and,
821
01:10:20.323 --> 01:10:22.450
and easy to to digest.
822
01:10:24.750 --> 01:10:31.125
If you really don't trust all that stuff, right, like, then run your own. Like, it's it's really that easy.
823
01:10:32.625 --> 01:10:34.645
I've like I said, I
824
01:10:35.585 --> 01:10:36.724
only had an issue.
825
01:10:37.310 --> 01:10:40.690
I I mean, I have I I don't mind. I want people to run
826
01:10:41.230 --> 01:10:43.010
full node. Like, that's why I've
827
01:10:43.550 --> 01:10:48.575
I've helped other node projects. I've done a lot, and I've I always wanna harp on that.
828
01:10:49.275 --> 01:10:50.175
But the reality
829
01:10:50.635 --> 01:10:51.295
is that
830
01:10:51.835 --> 01:10:52.735
we need to,
831
01:10:53.435 --> 01:10:56.495
we need to provide tools. We can't leave people out just because,
832
01:10:57.810 --> 01:11:00.790
and people are going to make their own decisions no matter what.
833
01:11:01.330 --> 01:11:05.510
It's important to remember that, you know, there's never been any
834
01:11:06.915 --> 01:11:12.695
any arrests led from a Whirlpool transaction or from a samurai wallet user that's been reported.
835
01:11:13.235 --> 01:11:13.735
Right?
836
01:11:15.395 --> 01:11:15.895
There's
837
01:11:16.430 --> 01:11:23.490
there's never been people, like, found on mixing their nodes, anything like that. When there's an issue, there's something that's been disclosed. Right?
838
01:11:25.070 --> 01:11:25.570
And
839
01:11:27.175 --> 01:11:35.034
and so when it comes down to this, like, some people need it, and we're not gonna take away like, I would not advocate for taking away a tool,
840
01:11:35.810 --> 01:11:39.750
to people that that need it, and they need to only use a mobile wallet.
841
01:11:41.410 --> 01:11:48.895
And then, you know, on top of that stuff, like, it's it's great that Sparrow has it as well. They also if they're a Lite Wallet user,
842
01:11:49.835 --> 01:11:56.810
or let's put it frame it I'll say light wallet. They don't have their own node, but they still use Spare Wallet. Right? You're still trusting a node to have have your information.
843
01:11:58.845 --> 01:12:05.665
So it's just important to to keep all that kind of stuff in mind that there's a risk trade off with everything that you do. Understand the risk,
844
01:12:06.330 --> 01:12:08.510
and figure out what's best for you. Right?
845
01:12:10.410 --> 01:12:14.830
And, you know, if if you find that you don't wanna trust Sami Wallet using a white wallet only,
846
01:12:15.395 --> 01:12:15.895
great.
847
01:12:16.835 --> 01:12:18.054
You run run-in dojo.
848
01:12:18.675 --> 01:12:25.440
You can run it, you know, you can run it on whatever device that you, you you know, whatever single board computer that you want,
849
01:12:26.140 --> 01:12:29.680
or you can buy a Tanto or whatever that that we have available. But,
850
01:12:30.860 --> 01:12:31.360
ultimately,
851
01:12:32.525 --> 01:12:33.345
on chain,
852
01:12:33.805 --> 01:12:39.985
no one can tell the difference between someone that got a mix as a Sparrow user, a Samurai user, or a,
853
01:12:41.390 --> 01:12:42.740
or, like, a,
854
01:12:43.190 --> 01:12:45.489
run a dojo user. So,
855
01:12:46.190 --> 01:12:52.575
what it comes down to is what does the blockchain say, and are we are we protected from chain analysis and law enforcement?
856
01:12:53.355 --> 01:12:54.975
And that answers yes.
857
01:12:57.035 --> 01:12:59.215
So use the tools. That's that's
858
01:12:59.520 --> 01:13:04.739
definitely what I would have I would have to say with it. And if you really don't trust any of that stuff, use the stonewall stowaway.
859
01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:10.075
We had a good time doing some live demos at Bitblock Boom. So,
860
01:13:11.175 --> 01:13:13.195
you know, use the tools. That's what's most important.
861
01:13:17.850 --> 01:13:21.230
Should I, sort of give a summary of my position? Yes.
862
01:13:21.930 --> 01:13:23.230
Yeah. So
863
01:13:23.565 --> 01:13:25.005
I think we're seeing a lot of,
864
01:13:25.725 --> 01:13:27.565
attention from law enforcement now.
865
01:13:28.125 --> 01:13:29.824
Obviously, the the debacle
866
01:13:31.165 --> 01:13:31.665
with
867
01:13:32.045 --> 01:13:36.750
Tornado Cash was sort of a a wake up call for a lot of people. Like, a lot of developers
868
01:13:37.530 --> 01:13:53.320
sort of, if you read between the lines, said, that's it. I'm not working on Bitcoin Core anymore. And, you know, you make the assumption that they might come back as anonymously or something like that. It's not as if we don't have good precedent in this space for, if you're going to develop controversial software, do it anonymously, like, I mean,
869
01:13:53.700 --> 01:13:54.200
Satoshi,
870
01:13:54.740 --> 01:13:55.240
obviously.
871
01:13:55.860 --> 01:13:56.360
So
872
01:13:57.540 --> 01:13:58.760
that being the case,
873
01:13:59.455 --> 01:14:04.195
don't paint a target on your back if you are with the best of intentions and a good actor,
874
01:14:04.495 --> 01:14:24.445
like in the best case, so now, samurai is. The fact that they have this data or they have the potential to keep hold of the records of that can unmask some of these not unmask to be phonetically correct, just to undo the effect of the coin join as a separate issue from then connecting an identity to the whole list of addresses you get.
875
01:14:25.130 --> 01:14:48.190
If they have the intention, and they certainly have a history of doing stuff like this, law enforcement, I mean, don't give them the opportunity to do it. And I'm really sure that this is encapsulated well with the adage of can't be evil is greater than don't be evil. Like, you don't want privacy policies. Like, is is someone gonna come out with a statement saying, we we promised to not leak your I mean, they effectively have.
876
01:14:48.890 --> 01:14:49.790
So I'm saying,
877
01:14:50.090 --> 01:14:52.830
I think that the the trade offs for this thing existing,
878
01:14:53.985 --> 01:14:55.285
I while I do acknowledge,
879
01:14:55.825 --> 01:15:04.860
the use case that some people have that can't afford to run nodes, I think it's pretty niche, to be honest, that running a node would get you in trouble and that somehow using Samurais,
880
01:15:05.240 --> 01:15:06.380
with a light client
881
01:15:06.920 --> 01:15:08.515
somehow gets you around that.
882
01:15:08.995 --> 01:15:21.520
I mean, we're talking 500 gigabytes. It's not a lot. That's like a couple of days on YouTube or Netflix. Like, if you're connecting over Tor, you should be alright. And given that you need Tor to use the summary thing in the first place, then
883
01:15:21.900 --> 01:15:27.215
I don't really actually, I I think I'm gonna take that back. I don't think I appreciate that there are,
884
01:15:27.835 --> 01:15:30.175
use cases for using samurai in light mode,
885
01:15:30.795 --> 01:15:35.400
because you can't run a node without getting in trouble. I don't really think that's a valid argument. So,
886
01:15:36.020 --> 01:15:41.400
I take back that olive branch. I think I'm just gonna say that I think the effect of it existing,
887
01:15:41.805 --> 01:15:43.505
if we love samurai and
888
01:15:44.045 --> 01:15:49.965
and appreciate the team, they are just painting a target on their back, and we know that controversial software like this,
889
01:15:51.350 --> 01:15:54.310
attracts law enforcement and gets people in trouble all the time.
890
01:15:54.790 --> 01:15:59.695
So don't do it. But given that's not really my position, I don't I don't think that.
891
01:16:00.094 --> 01:16:00.835
I think that,
892
01:16:01.375 --> 01:16:02.355
potentially, it's
893
01:16:03.534 --> 01:16:04.915
a lot worse than that.
894
01:16:05.695 --> 01:16:08.835
That means I would just advise people, let's not
895
01:16:09.230 --> 01:16:09.730
use,
896
01:16:10.270 --> 01:16:14.290
you shouldn't use samurai in a light mode at all. And the fact that it exists,
897
01:16:15.310 --> 01:16:16.370
makes me question,
898
01:16:16.910 --> 01:16:18.690
a lot of other things about the project
899
01:16:19.055 --> 01:16:19.875
as a whole.
900
01:16:20.495 --> 01:16:31.190
And it's not like every project in the world or any project is perfect. There's going to be compromises in the design of everything or just the sort of political choices. Like, wasabi is obviously
901
01:16:31.570 --> 01:16:32.070
compromised
902
01:16:32.530 --> 01:16:36.230
in a lot of people's heads just because of the choice they made to comply with law enforcement.
903
01:16:36.770 --> 01:16:37.270
So,
904
01:16:38.054 --> 01:16:42.135
remember that. Yeah. That's pretty much my position on it. I would advise people not use,
905
01:16:42.775 --> 01:16:47.490
I would advise people not use the like client because I don't think it's serious privacy, and I would advise people not use,
906
01:16:48.130 --> 01:16:50.230
other things, where they use samurai
907
01:16:50.610 --> 01:16:53.030
without relying on samurai servers,
908
01:16:54.370 --> 01:16:55.670
because in those instances,
909
01:16:56.245 --> 01:16:58.185
they are mixing with people that are potentially,
910
01:16:59.205 --> 01:17:05.065
leaking their xPub, and thus, the coin joints become something that can be partially or fully undone,
911
01:17:05.570 --> 01:17:12.630
which, gives them, a far weaker assumption of privacy than if they were to use something else like joint market or Wasabi.
912
01:17:12.995 --> 01:17:15.895
Man, I knew that one was coming. Hold on real quick.
913
01:17:17.635 --> 01:17:18.615
So, again,
914
01:17:20.035 --> 01:17:28.920
it's not been any so I I just, like, I fail. I'm not like, I wanted to end with this, and I'm sorry, Matt. But, like, I fail to see how anything's being unwound.
915
01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:33.045
Right? Or people are losing privacy by mixing with with,
916
01:17:33.665 --> 01:17:34.885
semi server people
917
01:17:35.264 --> 01:17:36.005
if there's
918
01:17:36.385 --> 01:17:37.205
ever been
919
01:17:37.585 --> 01:17:47.719
a hack. There's never been any people getting arrested, which you would see if there was a hack. You'd see people getting arrested. You would see things happening. You would see any shit in the news. Right? Because that would take down their monetary,
920
01:17:48.755 --> 01:18:04.040
their financial means of of maintaining themselves. It's okay. You should still assume you should still assume. You can you can assume that that everyone's salary will be compromised. Sure. At some point. Sure. Sure. You I mean, you could you could assume that. That's fine. It's a safe assumption.
921
01:18:04.505 --> 01:18:05.704
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
922
01:18:07.465 --> 01:18:08.284
But, like,
923
01:18:08.585 --> 01:18:11.165
it it still goes back to this, like, point of, like, when,
924
01:18:11.860 --> 01:18:15.720
one, like, you mentioned, it's better for people to use Wasabi Wallet,
925
01:18:17.140 --> 01:18:17.640
over
926
01:18:18.100 --> 01:18:22.515
Standard Wallet. 1 works with like, openly works with chain analysis,
927
01:18:23.295 --> 01:18:26.995
and has terms and services. Does it they will they'll they'll work with law enforcement,
928
01:18:28.060 --> 01:18:30.160
versus one that doesn't
929
01:18:30.540 --> 01:18:35.520
even have a terms and service. Just use it what you want or fork it and do whatever you want with it.
930
01:18:35.985 --> 01:18:38.965
Build it from source. Do whatever the the hell you wanna do.
931
01:18:40.465 --> 01:18:44.645
And has implemented all the tools to make it so that you provide no
932
01:18:45.470 --> 01:18:46.930
no information to them.
933
01:18:47.630 --> 01:18:50.130
Right? The minimal amount of information possible.
934
01:18:50.750 --> 01:18:53.970
And then on top of that, I I fail to see how that unwinds
935
01:18:54.585 --> 01:18:57.965
people's mixes, and that's only in this fairytale
936
01:18:58.825 --> 01:18:59.325
situation
937
01:18:59.705 --> 01:19:03.565
that something bad happened and that whatever. So, like,
938
01:19:03.929 --> 01:19:05.310
I I just, like,
939
01:19:06.090 --> 01:19:08.830
you know, I figured we that it would shift into that.
940
01:19:09.210 --> 01:19:09.710
But,
941
01:19:10.090 --> 01:19:12.030
like, to to think that, like,
942
01:19:12.805 --> 01:19:17.705
the the majority, right, the majority of a mix is to even think a majority of the mix
943
01:19:18.245 --> 01:19:18.745
is,
944
01:19:19.765 --> 01:19:44.490
is light wallet users is pretty silly. Yes. I question the one. I can't juxtapose or reconcile these two things. On the one hand, sorry to drag it out. On the one hand, I'm saying you're telling me that privacy is life and death, and on another hand, you're saying a real situation that could compromise the privacy is just fairy tale. That's the thing where I'm like, I don't think you're being serious about the risks that you're trying to impress upon me.
945
01:19:45.030 --> 01:19:48.410
No. I'm saying that, yes, like, there is,
946
01:19:49.054 --> 01:19:52.994
like, privacy in other countries is life and death. Right? And you're talking about
947
01:19:53.375 --> 01:19:57.635
a situation where those people, right, need to figure out a way to transact.
948
01:19:58.290 --> 01:19:59.430
Right? They have to.
949
01:19:59.890 --> 01:20:02.550
Right? That we're we're talking about people that are in,
950
01:20:02.850 --> 01:20:08.885
you know, in banned countries or whatever whatever you wanna call these these other places, right, that are in 3rd world countries
951
01:20:09.585 --> 01:20:13.605
that have horrible dictator like leaders like, horrible dictator like,
952
01:20:16.590 --> 01:20:17.489
state government.
953
01:20:17.790 --> 01:20:18.290
And
954
01:20:20.110 --> 01:20:22.290
they're supposed to be more concerned
955
01:20:22.909 --> 01:20:23.409
with,
956
01:20:24.625 --> 01:20:25.125
with
957
01:20:25.985 --> 01:20:33.045
a server getting hacked, which, like, you you're talking about any of these other KYC services, anyone that has any sort of actual information
958
01:20:33.440 --> 01:20:37.780
that they wanna go for for a samurai, which sure. They they maybe they have a
959
01:20:38.400 --> 01:20:39.699
a target on their back.
960
01:20:40.080 --> 01:20:40.980
Right? But
961
01:20:41.525 --> 01:20:47.465
you're telling me that that they're gonna go for that. They have no other information, but they're gonna go for the place that has doesn't have any information
962
01:20:48.085 --> 01:20:53.199
other than, like, the actual expos, but there's no PII that connects to them. Right? So
963
01:20:54.540 --> 01:20:59.175
why I say it's a fairy tale thing? Is it because people in the moment need to do what they need to do to
964
01:20:59.795 --> 01:21:12.760
to, like, either survive or transact the way that they need to in that moment, and they need to do a privacy. They need to do it privately. Right? That's why the initial mix in that, like, fat that first one is almost always fast,
965
01:21:13.060 --> 01:21:19.645
right, depending on how many people also try to mix. But if it's a smaller pool, you're probably gonna get that first mix instantly. You can do it on your mobile phone
966
01:21:19.945 --> 01:21:23.725
for that reason. Right? Because Bitcoin's for the streets, and these people need to operate
967
01:21:24.105 --> 01:21:25.485
right there so that they can
968
01:21:26.300 --> 01:21:28.000
continue to go forward. Now remixing
969
01:21:28.540 --> 01:21:39.305
is normally done by people who have dojos running 247. So there continues or their Yosin Sparrow or whatnot, and they have their computers on. They're running 247, so they're gonna continue to get remixes.
970
01:21:39.765 --> 01:21:46.220
Right? So maybe one of those people are gonna be a semi light a light user. But
971
01:21:47.080 --> 01:21:50.300
I I say that this is a a fairy tale thing
972
01:21:50.920 --> 01:21:51.420
because
973
01:21:52.125 --> 01:21:52.864
it it's
974
01:21:53.165 --> 01:22:15.345
not like, it's something that in the moment, someone that isn't someone who needs a transact isn't gonna give a shit about. And I know that because I've talked to many people who don't care. I've talked to many people who don't have the means to to do the node thing right now, and they're like, I just need to transact. I wanna do it privately, and I need to make it happen. Right? So they can use it. They could use the same amount for one transaction if they wanted to. Use it, mix it, send it.
975
01:22:15.885 --> 01:22:16.385
And
976
01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:18.740
how how you're justifying
977
01:22:19.280 --> 01:22:25.540
that I'm making this into something that's not life or death, I'm just saying that this this theater that we're creating
978
01:22:26.935 --> 01:22:30.075
is, something that doesn't apply to real people in real life.
979
01:22:30.455 --> 01:22:33.035
Like, it's something that they are willing to accept.
980
01:22:33.390 --> 01:22:36.930
Right? They know what they're doing because they're already trying to act privately.
981
01:22:37.310 --> 01:22:41.010
They're willing to accept it. Right? And they're doing it.
982
01:22:41.555 --> 01:22:42.055
And
983
01:22:42.435 --> 01:22:48.135
by saying, like, oh, well, like, you don't care or you think it's a, you know, a fallacy that I care about,
984
01:22:48.835 --> 01:22:55.910
you know, people using server. I want people to use a server, but or I want people to run their own dojo. But, honestly, like, if they know their their,
985
01:22:56.530 --> 01:23:00.875
threat model and they're willing to just say screw it, I'm I'm gonna accept the risk
986
01:23:01.415 --> 01:23:08.480
that comes with trusting SamRite Wallet. Since I'm already using their wallet anyways, I'm gonna trust their server, and I'm just gonna make this happen because I need to do this transaction.
987
01:23:09.260 --> 01:23:09.760
So,
988
01:23:10.140 --> 01:23:12.560
yeah, I'm saying in terms of, like, real life people,
989
01:23:13.284 --> 01:23:14.744
it like, this theater
990
01:23:15.125 --> 01:23:18.585
is maybe fairy tale was wrong word. This theater.
991
01:23:19.125 --> 01:23:19.625
Right?
992
01:23:20.250 --> 01:23:24.830
It's that's why I said it's it's like white knighting or, like, white knighting running a node.
993
01:23:25.449 --> 01:23:30.375
Like, I mean, like, I could preach all day about running a node, but, like, it'll probably help my,
994
01:23:31.155 --> 01:23:45.469
you know, run a dojo sales. I don't give 2 shits about that. I care about people being able to transact. I want people to be sovereign. I don't want people to use server. I want everyone to do all the things that are necessary to be a private individual. But if you need to do it and you are willing to accept those,
995
01:23:46.065 --> 01:23:48.405
you know, that trade off, you're still gonna have,
996
01:23:49.185 --> 01:23:49.685
immediate
997
01:23:50.145 --> 01:23:53.045
you're going to have immediate unchanged privacy,
998
01:23:53.790 --> 01:23:55.730
right, from a 3rd party observer.
999
01:23:56.909 --> 01:23:59.330
Is not a 3rd party observer if they're your node,
1000
01:23:59.870 --> 01:24:01.810
right, just like with any other node.
1001
01:24:02.135 --> 01:24:02.635
So,
1002
01:24:04.455 --> 01:24:12.910
I, yeah, that I I figured that that was gonna happen. I didn't think it was gonna happen. You were gonna bring that point up at the last point on your closing statement,
1003
01:24:13.530 --> 01:24:14.030
but,
1004
01:24:14.490 --> 01:24:18.110
like, it's pretty disingenuous to think that you're gonna unmix everything
1005
01:24:18.490 --> 01:24:22.015
when you have the the vast majority of remixers are,
1006
01:24:23.035 --> 01:24:25.855
are dojo users, so or Sparrow users.
1007
01:24:26.315 --> 01:24:29.310
Yeah. But, I mean, well, Sparrow is, like,
1008
01:24:30.350 --> 01:24:39.555
an onset of 5. Right? It's not it's not a lot of effort if, you know, if a couple of those people are using like clients and summarize, then
1009
01:24:40.815 --> 01:24:48.410
whoop dee doo, you got a coin joined with an an onset of 3. Like, that's I'm not exactly sleeping well at night. So you don't
1010
01:24:49.130 --> 01:24:49.630
so
1011
01:24:50.250 --> 01:24:56.830
I like, this is a whole another conversation. And, again, kinda like when I and I didn't mean to be an asshole, and I don't mean, like,
1012
01:24:57.675 --> 01:24:58.655
when I said,
1013
01:24:59.034 --> 01:25:01.695
yeah, you're out of your element. You're out of your element.
1014
01:25:02.074 --> 01:25:04.815
Like, if you don't understand how Whirlpool works
1015
01:25:05.290 --> 01:25:07.630
and how forward and backwards privacy works,
1016
01:25:09.290 --> 01:25:12.829
the end of the debate isn't the right time to do that, but
1017
01:25:13.685 --> 01:25:24.239
you continue that's that's why they we encourage remixing. Right? That's why we don't say mix once and leave it. Right? If you needed to and you just needed to break immediate ties and spend immediately, sure.
1018
01:25:24.620 --> 01:25:26.800
Like, you've broken deterministic lengths.
1019
01:25:27.180 --> 01:25:30.055
Remixing is better. Remixing will continue to be better.
1020
01:25:31.895 --> 01:25:39.035
And it you gain privacy whether you remix or not. If you don't understand how remix it like, how forward and backwards privacy works with Whirlpool,
1021
01:25:39.390 --> 01:25:46.370
Mhmm. There are many articles on how it works. Increase the onset. I'm just saying that if you use it at the minimum, it's not particularly comforting.
1022
01:25:46.745 --> 01:26:01.090
I'm aware that you can continue to engage in more Comforting to you. Free. I'm aware that you do that. Sure. Comforting to you. That's again my point. You keep framing these things and these, like, statements as if you are the end user for all these people.
1023
01:26:01.790 --> 01:26:04.415
Like, you are not you are not necessarily the end user.
1024
01:26:04.815 --> 01:26:21.860
Like, unless I'm not. I mean, do you but, like, are you in a, like, a a third world are you in Iran or a third world country that you have to be worried about this? Probably not. You know, it's somewhere we're at Right? But you're not in a in a country that has to worry about that. Right? So one mix might might be enough for someone in one of those countries.
1025
01:26:22.185 --> 01:26:26.364
And if it is, then they're gonna do it, and then they're gonna move. They're gonna make their transaction
1026
01:26:26.905 --> 01:26:36.590
and carry on with their life. Well, funnily enough, country that a lot of people got in trouble for donating Bitcoin specifically to a controversial political movement. I mean,
1027
01:26:36.970 --> 01:26:37.790
I e Canada.
1028
01:26:38.330 --> 01:26:47.415
But, I mean, I'm not trying to play I'm not trying to win some competition for me being the most oppressed or, like, win a a victim hierarchy thing. Like Yeah.
1029
01:26:47.795 --> 01:26:53.490
My point is that I agree with you that these people are I mean, okay. I've made this point too many times.
1030
01:26:54.210 --> 01:26:58.665
Matt, do you wanna read Shinobi's tweet at you? That was kind of interesting. I haven't
1031
01:26:59.425 --> 01:27:07.764
Christ. Shinobi Shinobi say? He said, why is online not implemented a scheme where Postmates XPub is never revealed to their server.
1032
01:27:08.180 --> 01:27:16.120
You never receive money to Postmates unless you sign a transaction yourself where you can just locally case that UTXO and never need to query the server.
1033
01:27:16.500 --> 01:27:17.480
It's a good question.
1034
01:27:21.575 --> 01:27:22.555
Why you can't,
1035
01:27:23.095 --> 01:27:23.755
I'm sorry.
1036
01:27:24.909 --> 01:27:30.610
I just, like, can't handle fucking anything that Shenobi says because he's just off the off the rails 99.99%
1037
01:27:31.550 --> 01:27:33.010
of the time. But
1038
01:27:34.042 --> 01:27:43.540
Wait. So we're gonna something where they don't see the expo. If you don't have the expo, right, for post mix, how are you going to refresh someone's wallet? How are you gonna shoot them their balance?
1039
01:27:47.540 --> 01:27:55.405
Sorry. Could you repeat? If someone so, like, even if I'm on my dojo, right, I run my own node, same thing that the semi semi server. Right?
1040
01:27:55.865 --> 01:28:01.650
If I if we have some scheme where it doesn't give the x the post mix expo,
1041
01:28:02.350 --> 01:28:04.850
how are you gonna refer how are you going to give them,
1042
01:28:05.310 --> 01:28:08.530
how are you gonna show in the wallet that you have a balance?
1043
01:28:09.225 --> 01:28:13.385
I think, that's not the issue. It's just why even take that,
1044
01:28:14.025 --> 01:28:18.830
unnecessarily take that XPub in the first place? You could just literally not take it, and it wouldn't
1045
01:28:19.130 --> 01:28:23.710
it wouldn't it doesn't affect Samura's ability to do what Samura does with a light client
1046
01:28:24.170 --> 01:28:37.039
if you never take that info in the first place. And then all your arguments remain valid, and they just have less data. Which doesn't make sense. Like, again, you can't, like so you're saying use a light wallet. Right? Use the you connect to their server.
1047
01:28:37.659 --> 01:28:39.360
They would only have your deposit,
1048
01:28:39.820 --> 01:28:43.119
x pub, but they wouldn't have your your pre or your post.
1049
01:28:43.915 --> 01:28:52.815
But they're still supposed to have all the same like, be able to transact the same way. How how could you transact with a constant to 0? Shinobi is saying Shinobi is saying
1050
01:28:54.300 --> 01:28:57.040
you have you have the premix XPub,
1051
01:28:58.940 --> 01:29:02.480
but the postmix XPub is not shared with Samurais servers
1052
01:29:02.925 --> 01:29:04.305
because if you're sending
1053
01:29:04.765 --> 01:29:05.825
to post mix,
1054
01:29:06.285 --> 01:29:07.665
you're sending to yourself.
1055
01:29:10.040 --> 01:29:16.219
So the server wouldn't necessarily need that at time of of receipt post mix. But I I think
1056
01:29:17.645 --> 01:29:24.705
I think How does it how does the wallet I think when it the the issue really comes down when it comes time to spend from the post mix.
1057
01:29:25.430 --> 01:29:31.290
Oh my god. I can't even this is why I don't we can't, like, even You would need to know your balance and to,
1058
01:29:32.150 --> 01:29:33.610
broadcast. But I guess
1059
01:29:33.985 --> 01:29:36.085
you would you can know your balance presumably.
1060
01:29:38.625 --> 01:29:46.280
You can know your balance presumably because you know that for the post mix. Yeah. You just can't spend from the wallet. Look. I I think I think that's that's
1061
01:29:46.740 --> 01:29:51.640
you know, I first of all, I appreciate Shinobi participating in the show. I wish you would
1062
01:29:52.805 --> 01:29:57.465
join the live chat that the show has so that we could see it on screen. That'd be all.
1063
01:29:58.165 --> 01:29:58.485
But,
1064
01:29:59.740 --> 01:30:02.720
I I I think you both agree.
1065
01:30:03.340 --> 01:30:04.400
I know I
1066
01:30:04.940 --> 01:30:06.720
agree with this statement that
1067
01:30:07.275 --> 01:30:09.935
the less information samurai knows, the better.
1068
01:30:10.235 --> 01:30:14.735
Mhmm. And my understanding is that they're trying to know less information over time.
1069
01:30:15.275 --> 01:30:15.775
Yep.
1070
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:20.100
They're just not there yet. And I I personally
1071
01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:25.700
I know I'm not supposed to be a part of this debate, but I personally would like to see more
1072
01:30:26.725 --> 01:30:28.105
privacy focused tools
1073
01:30:28.565 --> 01:30:29.305
for Bitcoiners,
1074
01:30:29.925 --> 01:30:30.425
specifically
1075
01:30:31.445 --> 01:30:32.745
on the mobile side.
1076
01:30:33.820 --> 01:30:43.120
I think if you're on desktop, you have decent options right now. If you're able to use your own node, you have decent options. I would like to see as many mobile options as possible,
1077
01:30:44.045 --> 01:30:46.065
and we just have not seen that yet, unfortunately.
1078
01:30:47.005 --> 01:30:51.105
Yeah. I'd argue the trade offs with mobile are too severe for them to be,
1079
01:30:51.645 --> 01:31:11.270
taken seriously. That's all. I don't But this is what like, I had I had wax mechanic. I had I had waxwing and belcher on, and they said if and I think a lot of Bitcoiners agree with this. If you wanna use Bitcoin privately, you shouldn't use a mobile phone. But the the matter the matter stands that there's gonna be 1,000,000,000 of Bitcoiners
1080
01:31:12.370 --> 01:31:19.475
that their only computer is a mobile phone. Like, we keep talking about, like, the 3rd world or something, but, like, the same goes for, like,
1081
01:31:20.115 --> 01:31:24.775
someone stacking with a KYC service like Swan and withdrawing it to their mobile wallet.
1082
01:31:26.195 --> 01:31:28.615
Like, there needs to be mobile privacy tools,
1083
01:31:29.290 --> 01:31:30.110
and they should
1084
01:31:30.650 --> 01:31:34.429
they should, you know, take the least amount of information possible.
1085
01:31:34.730 --> 01:31:38.875
A a company should have the least amount of information possible when they're running it.
1086
01:31:39.435 --> 01:31:51.580
I I think I would just reframe it slightly to it would be great if we could have mobile privacy tools that did what we want them to do, and it doesn't really seem to be realistically doable. Like, it's not like there's any competition because it's just
1087
01:31:52.060 --> 01:31:52.560
basically,
1088
01:31:53.020 --> 01:32:01.505
every team has come along and said, yeah. You can't do proper coin joints on mobile. And Sunrise said, yeah. You can. You just have to make this trade off. And I'm saying that's a bad trade off.
1089
01:32:02.285 --> 01:32:06.145
Too bad for it to be something that I would recommend anyone ever use.
1090
01:32:09.330 --> 01:32:11.230
I am, like
1091
01:32:12.130 --> 01:32:20.005
I've already beat, like, this issue and to, you know, feel like I'm beating a dead horse if I continue to respond to the like, it's,
1092
01:32:20.385 --> 01:32:22.724
like, recommending it to people or not. Disagree.
1093
01:32:23.264 --> 01:32:25.045
Yeah. No. I mean, like, that's fine.
1094
01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:29.880
Because, like, like, going through waves of stuff.
1095
01:32:30.340 --> 01:32:30.840
But,
1096
01:32:32.900 --> 01:32:34.840
yeah, I mean, I would love to see more
1097
01:32:36.505 --> 01:32:38.525
more wallets utilizing it.
1098
01:32:39.625 --> 01:32:43.245
And, honestly, if there when the day comes that there's a better
1099
01:32:43.580 --> 01:32:44.080
way
1100
01:32:44.460 --> 01:32:47.040
to support light wallet users with less information,
1101
01:32:47.659 --> 01:33:05.710
like, you can guarantee that if it actually works the way it's supposed to, like, it'll be here. Well, I mean, it's actually real There's not. You know, there there's not a good way. Like, we've already kinda There might be. Touch on it. I mean, you've got Trezor integrating with Savi. Right? So you can run Trezor as potentially a You're not talking about a mobile wallet.
1102
01:33:06.330 --> 01:33:23.360
No. I'm saying, that, Trezor can release something that can just as a mobile wallet, then can connect to their suite or whatever. There are ways around it. The the one And their suite is their own server, so, like, I No. No. You can't no. Trezza can connect fine to your own node, and it can do over Tor as well if you want.
1103
01:33:23.900 --> 01:33:27.985
Why would why would you do that? Like, why would you even, like, have someone recommend
1104
01:33:28.285 --> 01:33:30.385
doing that? You could just use Sparrow.
1105
01:33:30.765 --> 01:33:34.305
If you're gonna talk like, I like, I just like, that's such a shift.
1106
01:33:35.870 --> 01:33:40.770
Honestly, like Yeah. I realized that. Not there's not a bet like, there's not a better way right now.
1107
01:33:42.190 --> 01:34:01.920
That's bad. That doesn't involve someone running their own node, which is exactly what you you just said. They were run they would be running their own node, or you're running a mobile app that's connected to this the treasury suite, which is connected to either your node or their node. It's still connecting to a node, and it's still Well, that's going back to a full node. That's true. Let me be clear. You still need to run a node, today,
1108
01:34:02.235 --> 01:34:04.975
but you're still able to run a light client on your phone.
1109
01:34:05.435 --> 01:34:17.820
Yes. I'm I run a light client on my phone right now, and it's saying my wallet. Right? But it's connected to my node. So, like, that's exactly what you just explained. Yeah. Right. Like, until there's a better way to run to, like, architecturally
1110
01:34:18.655 --> 01:34:20.195
set it up so that light wallets
1111
01:34:20.815 --> 01:34:25.795
only get, like, whatever information until something is, like, concrete out there,
1112
01:34:26.095 --> 01:34:26.595
like,
1113
01:34:27.150 --> 01:34:29.570
there's no reason that I would recommend,
1114
01:34:30.670 --> 01:34:32.210
to the semi team to
1115
01:34:32.590 --> 01:34:34.690
do away with and abandon
1116
01:34:35.335 --> 01:34:37.994
their users that might need the tools.
1117
01:34:38.295 --> 01:34:39.655
Right? Like, that's
1118
01:34:41.094 --> 01:34:50.750
you can disagree. You can disagree and say, like, whatever. Like, no. They're they're larping. I I don't care. I know for a fact that there are people that use this because they need it,
1119
01:34:51.050 --> 01:34:51.550
and,
1120
01:34:53.155 --> 01:34:58.215
like, they don't care. Like, they don't care about that trade off. They're willing to accept it. So
1121
01:34:58.594 --> 01:35:03.900
to just take it away now if there when that when that, you know, ability comes up,
1122
01:35:04.200 --> 01:35:04.860
you know,
1123
01:35:05.560 --> 01:35:14.435
to be able to do that and not have a central server, I'm sure Samara will be very happy to, like, not have to run their you know, decrease their server costs.
1124
01:35:16.255 --> 01:35:17.455
You know, but the
1125
01:35:18.200 --> 01:35:19.100
you know, these,
1126
01:35:19.480 --> 01:35:25.020
like, fairy tale fairy tale ideas of, like, some random solution that may or may not be plausible,
1127
01:35:26.725 --> 01:35:30.985
you know, like, until someone writes some code that makes it that makes it
1128
01:35:31.364 --> 01:35:33.625
sound concrete to something that actually would work,
1129
01:35:34.210 --> 01:35:37.430
I wouldn't recommend just taking away tools from people just because,
1130
01:35:38.050 --> 01:35:43.670
someone sees as a threat model, which Samurai also sees as a threat model, which is why they explain it to them. So,
1131
01:35:45.445 --> 01:35:52.825
yeah, I like, people can disagree. People can, you know, say, like, you know, just samurai, well, it's great. Just use it with
1132
01:35:55.040 --> 01:35:58.420
use it with a dojo. Right? Like, go for it. Right?
1133
01:35:58.960 --> 01:36:01.220
Yep. Very com But, like, just
1134
01:36:01.525 --> 01:36:04.905
just understanding, like, how you how we say things is important.
1135
01:36:05.445 --> 01:36:12.230
Like, saying, like, if you use Sam Rylie Wallet, you're retarded or saying which, obviously, you're you're trolling, but, like,
1136
01:36:13.010 --> 01:36:19.965
going just continue to dive down into it or saying, like, you don't trust them because they have that model, which I explained is because of,
1137
01:36:20.265 --> 01:36:25.245
you know, the history behind it, user activated soft work. You needed someone you trusted
1138
01:36:25.730 --> 01:36:27.270
if you were running a light client.
1139
01:36:27.969 --> 01:36:28.469
So
1140
01:36:29.650 --> 01:36:34.310
understanding these threat models, understanding, like, you know, why there's why they're set up the way they are.
1141
01:36:34.885 --> 01:36:41.705
And until something better comes out, they can't just take they they should not just take away the tools from people that need to use them.
1142
01:36:42.885 --> 01:36:50.340
And, like, 90% of the users are gaining privacy because they they care about privacy, not because they need privacy,
1143
01:36:50.975 --> 01:36:53.074
but taking away from the 10%,
1144
01:36:53.775 --> 01:36:56.755
you know, that actually need it is important.
1145
01:36:57.535 --> 01:37:00.035
And I don't think we should be just taking it away,
1146
01:37:00.989 --> 01:37:04.130
and they can accept the risk that that they've been taking.
1147
01:37:05.949 --> 01:37:10.925
And, you know, you might disagree with them, but they're the ones living living that life,
1148
01:37:11.385 --> 01:37:12.605
not you. So,
1149
01:37:14.825 --> 01:37:20.120
yeah, it's kinda work. Yeah. I wouldn't I wouldn't disagree with their ability to choose. What I disagree with is,
1150
01:37:20.920 --> 01:37:24.300
the assumption that they understand the risks they're taking.
1151
01:37:27.265 --> 01:37:28.405
Okay. So
1152
01:37:28.705 --> 01:37:48.590
we'll change the goalpost, and we'll Well, no. I don't think it's necessarily I don't think that's necessarily a goalpost shift. I mean, I think that's something that I I cared I cared a lot about, and I was really glad that samurai implemented the warnings in the wallet when you load it up. And I I don't know of any other I don't know of any mobile wallet, which are all
1153
01:37:49.210 --> 01:37:49.710
primarily
1154
01:37:50.090 --> 01:37:56.270
light wallets that actually notify the user when they boot them up that, you know, if you use this without your own node,
1155
01:37:57.335 --> 01:37:59.275
you're screwing our privacy up.
1156
01:37:59.975 --> 01:38:00.475
Yep.
1157
01:38:00.935 --> 01:38:09.040
I, or that you have to trust that you have to trust the company with your privacy to be more exact. I have a question for you, mechanic, because I'm a little bit of a masochist,
1158
01:38:09.500 --> 01:38:10.000
and,
1159
01:38:11.500 --> 01:38:13.265
I'm curious of your opinion. So,
1160
01:38:14.145 --> 01:38:17.925
and when I say masochist, it's because I don't know. I feel like this conversation is is
1161
01:38:18.785 --> 01:38:20.165
gotten a little bit tedious.
1162
01:38:21.159 --> 01:38:26.059
So Sparrow, it's you know, so Sparrow is developed by Craig Raw. He's the lead maintainer.
1163
01:38:27.320 --> 01:38:31.284
It kinda made a you know, it came it kinda came out of nowhere and has been
1164
01:38:31.585 --> 01:38:33.684
it's it's my favorite desktop wallet now.
1165
01:38:34.224 --> 01:38:35.445
He made an interesting
1166
01:38:35.824 --> 01:38:36.965
trade off decision.
1167
01:38:37.380 --> 01:38:39.160
It's often compared to Electrum
1168
01:38:39.860 --> 01:38:40.520
in in
1169
01:38:40.820 --> 01:38:41.800
in its capabilities,
1170
01:38:42.740 --> 01:38:58.160
but he made a different so with when you boot up Electrum, you don't connect it to your own node. It just connects to a random Electrum node. And a lot of a lot of people speculate that random Electrum nodes are run by chain surveillance companies and potentially governments or whatnot that are trying to track you.
1171
01:38:58.940 --> 01:39:05.965
So people advise, you know, use your own Electrum node instead of using one of the defaults. On Sparrow, if you don't use
1172
01:39:06.425 --> 01:39:13.980
your own node, which he makes it very explicit in the beginning when you're setting it up. It's like, do you wanna use a public node, or do you wanna use your own node?
1173
01:39:14.280 --> 01:39:17.420
If you don't use your own node, he gives you a drop down of 4
1174
01:39:18.505 --> 01:39:19.804
4 choices
1175
01:39:20.105 --> 01:39:21.645
that are not run by him.
1176
01:39:22.025 --> 01:39:23.005
1 is Blockstream,
1177
01:39:23.864 --> 01:39:25.005
1 is MZ,
1178
01:39:26.860 --> 01:39:27.920
one is Bitteroo,
1179
01:39:28.380 --> 01:39:30.480
and I forget who the third one is.
1180
01:39:30.940 --> 01:39:33.280
But he gives you an he gives you 4 choices.
1181
01:39:33.905 --> 01:39:41.845
Luke Childs. Was the last one? Luke Childs. Oh, yeah. Luke Childs. He gives you 4 choices not run by him. Do you prefer that over
1182
01:39:42.850 --> 01:39:43.670
just defaulting
1183
01:39:44.050 --> 01:39:46.310
to, in this case, Arrow server?
1184
01:39:49.170 --> 01:39:51.750
Giving you other options? He gives he gives you, like, curated
1185
01:39:52.065 --> 01:39:55.525
Right? He's, like, you know, I'm not gonna connect you to a random Electrum node, but
1186
01:39:55.905 --> 01:40:00.804
your Yeah. To clarify semi trusted ones that are run by members of the community.
1187
01:40:01.700 --> 01:40:11.320
Can you clarify if what the default is with Sparo? So with Sparo, when you load it up, it, like, goes through the full trade off model. It's, like, if you use a public node, if,
1188
01:40:12.105 --> 01:40:19.405
if you if you use your own node, like, it gives you, like, a full explanation, and then it asks you which one you wanna use.
1189
01:40:19.910 --> 01:40:24.970
And then if you click public node, it gives you a drop down of those 4 nodes, or you can enter a different node.
1190
01:40:25.990 --> 01:40:33.185
Yeah. It it's actually really hard to criticize that. I like that model, and I think it's actually better than what Electrum does, which is the default. Like, you had,
1191
01:40:33.485 --> 01:40:45.675
JW, who I tend to disagree with literally everything he says. But, one time he was criticizing Coldcard for having in their instructions a way to use Electrum, and he said this means it's all spooky, you know,
1192
01:40:46.455 --> 01:40:55.190
government project because the default for Electrum is that it connects to a bunch of Electrum servers, which you just alluded to might be chain analysis servers or whatever. And,
1193
01:40:55.570 --> 01:41:02.895
you know, that's the thing I don't like about Electrum. Like, my my favorite, if I can riff here a bit on what you said, my favorite wallet, really,
1194
01:41:03.275 --> 01:41:04.015
no endorsement
1195
01:41:04.475 --> 01:41:06.095
or no no financial
1196
01:41:07.275 --> 01:41:09.055
incentive on my end is, Specter,
1197
01:41:09.830 --> 01:41:18.410
because you just can't use it without a node. But, of course, I know that you're gonna disagree, Zelco. That that's a good thing. Like, users should have that option, but,
1198
01:41:19.270 --> 01:41:25.355
I I like the fact that you can't. I mean, so when it comes to Sparrow, Craig was, like he's sort of hostile towards Tor.
1199
01:41:26.055 --> 01:41:28.155
Maybe he's not so hostile anymore, but
1200
01:41:28.640 --> 01:41:36.180
none of the time outs Well, Arrow has Tor built in. The reason he's hostile is because he has a ton of support requests that, you know, it's because Tor is unreliable.
1201
01:41:38.195 --> 01:41:45.815
No. He also said it was, even in ideal circumstances, it's just less good than, I think, using your own Electrum personal server.
1202
01:41:46.190 --> 01:41:51.170
I can't remember the nuance of his argument, so put an extra the connects to that. The argument, I'm pretty sure,
1203
01:41:51.550 --> 01:41:54.450
is is that if you're if you're running your node at home,
1204
01:41:54.855 --> 01:41:59.275
you don't need to go and connect to it through Tor. You can just connect to it through the local network
1205
01:41:59.895 --> 01:42:05.510
because why are you adding that latency and failure rate for for no no privacy gain?
1206
01:42:07.409 --> 01:42:25.660
Right. Well, that's totally valid. I thought he had another issue with it, but I might be misremembering. One of the cool parts about Sparrow is that it has Tor built in. So you can paste, like, the Tor address of your Electrum node in, and then wherever you are in the world, you can use your own node by just pasting in that Tor string, and you don't even have to install Tor separately. Yeah.
1207
01:42:26.280 --> 01:42:35.224
Yeah. I'm I'm gonna say that in response to your question, I I think it's hard to criticize Sparrow. It's a really good project. It sort burst on the scene and became everyone's favorite immediately,
1208
01:42:35.684 --> 01:42:37.864
and there's pretty good reason for that.
1209
01:42:38.485 --> 01:42:42.425
Maybe I'm just stuck in my ways, but I respect to Fanboy. Okay. So
1210
01:42:42.870 --> 01:42:45.050
this is the where the masochist part comes in.
1211
01:42:45.750 --> 01:42:49.610
So users using Sparrow chooses the Blockstream node,
1212
01:42:50.605 --> 01:42:51.985
and then does a Whirlpool
1213
01:42:52.285 --> 01:42:54.305
transaction, does a collaborative transaction,
1214
01:42:55.165 --> 01:42:55.665
CoinJoin.
1215
01:42:56.605 --> 01:42:58.305
Do is there a benefit there?
1216
01:43:02.680 --> 01:43:03.180
Potentially.
1217
01:43:04.520 --> 01:43:15.025
There's a trade off, in the presumably, they're not running their own node. Otherwise, they would've used it, and they can't make the same assumptions about their privacy as they could if they were using their own node.
1218
01:43:19.140 --> 01:43:27.565
But isn't that that's it's a similar trade off. It's just a different entity you're trusting. Instead of trusting block instead of trusting Samura, you're trusting Blockstream in that scenario.
1219
01:43:27.865 --> 01:43:30.125
Yeah. Like, this is the sort
1220
01:43:30.825 --> 01:43:44.170
of maybe something I've hinted at or just said a few times in this, debate, which is moving trust from what that's why I keep using the VPN analogy. I think the VPN analogy is a great analogy, by the way. That's how I look at it. I appreciate it. I actually think,
1221
01:43:45.415 --> 01:43:51.594
and the samurai guys have said this themselves that that any centralized coordinator model is is not,
1222
01:43:51.980 --> 01:43:57.200
you know, you you have to trust the coordinator to a degree because they can civil attack you at minimal cost.
1223
01:43:58.380 --> 01:44:00.880
The civil defense on a coordinator is
1224
01:44:01.325 --> 01:44:09.025
is in a low transaction fee environment where mining transaction fees aren't high, there's there's no civil protection from the coordinator itself.
1225
01:44:10.430 --> 01:44:13.250
Yeah, man. There's just so much that works really well.
1226
01:44:14.350 --> 01:44:22.025
I've yeah. I appreciate that because it does hold quite tight, I think. I just think VPNs can be useful if they're explained if the trade offs are explained well.
1227
01:44:22.965 --> 01:44:26.505
That's basically where me and you disagree at the at the least.
1228
01:44:27.020 --> 01:44:31.920
No. No. I think I think it's legitimate to use samurai. I I think there are genuinely
1229
01:44:32.699 --> 01:44:49.500
some bad design choices, but I will extend the olive branch and say that samurai does some great choices as well that pretty much no one else does. So I don't just wanna be a mindless hater with it. I I I disagree on this one sticking point, really, as well as maybe some other minor technical decisions.
1230
01:44:49.880 --> 01:44:50.380
But,
1231
01:44:50.915 --> 01:44:51.575
you know,
1232
01:44:52.594 --> 01:44:53.255
I think
1233
01:44:53.875 --> 01:44:57.895
I think that explaining those things and having people use it with full awareness
1234
01:44:58.435 --> 01:44:59.175
has not
1235
01:44:59.475 --> 01:44:59.975
been
1236
01:45:00.730 --> 01:45:21.090
something like, we can say that people use it having educated themselves fully, and we can wash our hands of it and say, you know, if people people understand the trade offs when they use it, but that's, to me, just not realistic. People don't really do the research, and people just use default settings on things. That's, again, why I like Spectre because you can't use it unless you're running a node. Like, everyone running Electrum
1237
01:45:21.470 --> 01:45:27.915
you know, running an Electrum personal server is hard. Right? It's it's a difficult thing to do. And if you're using a node like Umbrella
1238
01:45:28.295 --> 01:45:29.515
or or Embassy,
1239
01:45:29.975 --> 01:45:45.015
you know, you've gotta connect to elect RS or something like that over Tor, and, man, it's just it's pretty much unusable. Right? Like, to to use your note that way and, like, on paper, it all works great. But in reality, half the time, your Electrum is gonna be saying it's not connected.
1240
01:45:45.555 --> 01:45:55.340
And you just you know, you need to do a transaction now or whatever. We wanna talk privacy trade offs. What's interesting, Mechanic, is, and Craig was the one who brought this up to me,
1241
01:45:56.520 --> 01:45:58.140
of Craig of Sparrow.
1242
01:45:59.215 --> 01:46:05.555
So the the most common way of using Specter is you run Bitcoin Core and you run Specter on the same computer,
1243
01:46:06.650 --> 01:46:09.070
and they basically automatically connect to each other.
1244
01:46:09.610 --> 01:46:11.230
Sparrow has a similar feature,
1245
01:46:12.090 --> 01:46:15.915
where you can run Bitcoin Core on your computer and you can run Sparrow on the same computer.
1246
01:46:16.375 --> 01:46:21.115
If but he pops up a warning, and the reason he pops up the warning is because
1247
01:46:21.975 --> 01:46:22.475
your
1248
01:46:23.030 --> 01:46:24.890
your public keys are actually
1249
01:46:25.350 --> 01:46:27.130
stored in Bitcoin Core,
1250
01:46:27.430 --> 01:46:30.970
and Bitcoin Core doesn't encrypt them. So if your computer is compromised,
1251
01:46:33.465 --> 01:46:33.965
the
1252
01:46:34.505 --> 01:46:37.165
all the address information in Sparrow is encrypted,
1253
01:46:37.545 --> 01:46:43.550
but all the address information in Bitcoin Core isn't, and it can be compromised in that regard. And that's why he likes
1254
01:46:44.409 --> 01:46:45.230
the Electrum
1255
01:46:45.770 --> 01:46:49.150
server model that because you have you have the computer
1256
01:46:49.615 --> 01:46:54.035
that is maybe more of a multiuse computer that doesn't have
1257
01:46:54.895 --> 01:46:58.035
all that sensitive private information unencrypted on it.
1258
01:46:58.560 --> 01:47:04.660
And then your node doesn't actually have that information on it either because it's just getting pinged all the time by the client.
1259
01:47:05.735 --> 01:47:09.115
I thought that was interesting. I never thought about that until you mentioned it.
1260
01:47:09.735 --> 01:47:16.220
No. That's a great point, and he's dead on. But it is really easy to just run Bitcoin Core on your computer with Sparrow or Spectre attached to it.
1261
01:47:16.680 --> 01:47:19.980
And you don't have to deal with any tour latency or anything like that.
1262
01:47:20.680 --> 01:47:22.825
Yeah. That's that's like the Ferrari
1263
01:47:23.205 --> 01:47:30.040
node itself. Just like to have a great computer with 2 terabytes of internal solid state drive space, run a full node,
1264
01:47:30.600 --> 01:47:41.055
you know, transaction indexing turned on, everything going for it I mean and run on top of it or Sparrow or something else. I mean, the the one the one issue, though, is that you run into,
1265
01:47:42.155 --> 01:47:50.710
just trying to rely on core is if you have any sort of depth to your to your x pub at all. Like, post mix, whirlpool
1266
01:47:51.250 --> 01:47:53.190
people, people who've been whirlpooling for
1267
01:47:53.570 --> 01:47:55.365
any period of time, really,
1268
01:47:56.385 --> 01:47:57.525
their ex pub
1269
01:47:57.825 --> 01:47:59.925
their Prismix ex pub is gonna be
1270
01:48:00.465 --> 01:48:00.965
lengthy.
1271
01:48:01.450 --> 01:48:04.990
So, like, trying to and I've used Spectre before.
1272
01:48:06.090 --> 01:48:09.150
I'm I'm nowhere near as much of a fan as you are.
1273
01:48:10.335 --> 01:48:10.835
But
1274
01:48:11.295 --> 01:48:16.595
I think that if you're trying to use that's why that's another reason why I know Greg likes,
1275
01:48:17.855 --> 01:48:21.840
likes Electrum server model. Particularly, I know he's a big fan of fulcrum,
1276
01:48:22.140 --> 01:48:22.640
fulcrum,
1277
01:48:23.020 --> 01:48:24.480
which is amazing,
1278
01:48:26.780 --> 01:48:29.679
is because of, like, when you're mixing, those,
1279
01:48:30.764 --> 01:48:32.304
that gets deep.
1280
01:48:33.405 --> 01:48:33.905
And,
1281
01:48:34.684 --> 01:48:40.440
Kordick can probably agree. I can see he said, Whirlpool been around. He said Whirlpool been around since 2015.
1282
01:48:41.780 --> 01:48:48.485
I don't know if Whirlpool was around since 2015. I'd have to ask the guys. Definitely wasn't. Yeah. I was gonna say I thought it was 2019.
1283
01:48:50.145 --> 01:48:50.645
But,
1284
01:48:52.705 --> 01:48:55.205
you know, you you get some deep, deep,
1285
01:48:56.630 --> 01:48:58.010
you know, wallet,
1286
01:48:58.950 --> 01:49:04.810
you know, wallet depth in there. So you if you're trying to sync it up with core, like, that's not gonna work.
1287
01:49:05.745 --> 01:49:09.205
You need some sort of indexer to speed the process up.
1288
01:49:10.580 --> 01:49:12.005
And yeah. So
1289
01:49:13.370 --> 01:49:17.070
I'm I'm not a fan of that. I I like the option of having the
1290
01:49:17.370 --> 01:49:20.330
the Electrum server. If I'm gonna use desktop or if I'm gonna use,
1291
01:49:22.045 --> 01:49:23.264
like, a hardware wallet,
1292
01:49:24.764 --> 01:49:25.264
which
1293
01:49:26.364 --> 01:49:28.065
I don't use anymore, but,
1294
01:49:29.080 --> 01:49:39.405
would definitely be using Sparrow simply for that that ability to, To be clear, you can use you can use an I'm, like, 99% sure you can use an Electrum server with Spectre. I'm
1295
01:49:40.505 --> 01:49:44.925
I'm thinking of the the time when I when we had it implemented, there was no,
1296
01:49:45.625 --> 01:49:49.360
Yeah. Maybe you used to not be able to, and then they Yeah. Yeah.
1297
01:49:50.780 --> 01:49:54.480
I don't know. The KYC stuff is what who got me out of that one. But,
1298
01:49:56.275 --> 01:49:58.855
yeah, I I think that there's a lot of,
1299
01:49:59.395 --> 01:50:03.175
there's a lot of space and room for improvement everywhere, but, ultimately,
1300
01:50:04.429 --> 01:50:04.929
like,
1301
01:50:05.469 --> 01:50:10.369
you know, that's why that's why I kept saying, like, the focus of of all this is not,
1302
01:50:11.150 --> 01:50:14.005
needs to be directed to your on chain privacy,
1303
01:50:14.625 --> 01:50:16.885
what's giving on chain privacy and what's not.
1304
01:50:18.145 --> 01:50:18.645
And,
1305
01:50:19.745 --> 01:50:26.630
you know, that that's really what this whole thing kinda comes down to. That's why the more frustrated I get, I get frustrated because we're
1306
01:50:27.170 --> 01:50:29.590
you we're we're talking about things that are theater
1307
01:50:32.265 --> 01:50:32.765
that
1308
01:50:33.705 --> 01:50:37.965
that have not been an issue. And, like, could they be? Yes. Should you try to avoid
1309
01:50:38.425 --> 01:50:43.950
using a, someone else's full node? Absolutely. I give talks on that all the time.
1310
01:50:44.650 --> 01:50:48.910
But that doesn't that doesn't mean that someone is stupid or shouldn't be,
1311
01:50:49.885 --> 01:50:54.225
or if they need to, they can't use something or shouldn't be allowed to use something.
1312
01:50:54.844 --> 01:51:05.730
What if what if there. The 2 what if samurai offered 2 services? 1 for people destroying like lights and one for You you must follow Shinobi a lot because, those are that's always his argument.
1313
01:51:06.335 --> 01:51:07.715
Dojo won the pool,
1314
01:51:08.495 --> 01:51:11.315
versus a light white light client pool,
1315
01:51:13.055 --> 01:51:18.390
and there there's no there's no need to do to do that anyways. Right? Because
1316
01:51:18.850 --> 01:51:19.989
they're blinded
1317
01:51:20.290 --> 01:51:20.790
to
1318
01:51:21.255 --> 01:51:25.115
those other people. Right? Just so they can't coordinator's blinded.
1319
01:51:25.735 --> 01:51:28.315
So they're blinded to the dojo and sparrow people.
1320
01:51:29.175 --> 01:51:29.995
And then
1321
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:31.940
you take those out.
1322
01:51:33.440 --> 01:51:34.480
Like, yeah, they're
1323
01:51:35.840 --> 01:51:40.415
potentially, they seem to do stuff. But, like like, why why would you cut out liquidity? You would
1324
01:51:40.795 --> 01:51:46.815
pay the run cut out the You would pay the running a notice if it doesn't work. There would be no point. There'd be no point to mix
1325
01:51:47.430 --> 01:51:48.810
at that point. Like, it
1326
01:51:49.430 --> 01:51:49.930
it's
1327
01:51:52.230 --> 01:51:58.684
I I I I failed to see why people should have separate liquidity pools. I've never seen a good argument for it.
1328
01:52:00.744 --> 01:52:04.025
Like, the good I make the argument. It's that people,
1329
01:52:04.980 --> 01:52:13.075
if there if you agree I know you agree because you said it multiple times. It's better to do this stuff with samurai running a node than not running a node.
1330
01:52:14.035 --> 01:52:18.295
The the thing that makes it better to run a node and worse to not run a node,
1331
01:52:18.915 --> 01:52:20.055
can cross contaminate.
1332
01:52:20.380 --> 01:52:27.599
I I don't think that's, an invalid assumption, in which case you could separate the two things, and then people using Sparrow and Ronin Dojo
1333
01:52:28.155 --> 01:52:28.655
don't,
1334
01:52:29.195 --> 01:52:31.375
compromise with any of the things that you're
1335
01:52:31.995 --> 01:52:41.220
somewhat hand waving away. And the other service remains that you think is essential, that needs to exist, and which I can actually agree with. So why not do that?
1336
01:52:42.080 --> 01:52:46.505
Why not? What? Because they're all the same. So they're all the same to the coordinator.
1337
01:52:47.365 --> 01:52:56.210
Right? Like, why why would you cut why would you cut any amount of liquidity even if it's, you know, a third of it? Right? Why would you cut liquidity from people,
1338
01:52:56.670 --> 01:53:02.290
who are trying to gain the privacy to hide with the crowd, right, that still get backwards privacy and,
1339
01:53:02.975 --> 01:53:03.715
they get,
1340
01:53:04.495 --> 01:53:06.515
backwards anonymity and forward anonymity,
1341
01:53:07.135 --> 01:53:11.715
from participating in a larger pool. Right? Why would you cut that
1342
01:53:12.099 --> 01:53:13.400
and punish people,
1343
01:53:13.860 --> 01:53:14.920
right, who
1344
01:53:15.619 --> 01:53:18.599
need to use the tool? Because that's really what it comes up to.
1345
01:53:19.114 --> 01:53:31.460
But Just to tell you how true. The people the people who are using the light client the people that are using it without their own node would have would have lower anonymity sets in that situation. Significantly lower.
1346
01:53:31.840 --> 01:53:32.900
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
1347
01:53:33.360 --> 01:53:35.139
That's a problem, of course. But,
1348
01:53:35.915 --> 01:53:39.135
your your it doesn't seem consistent because,
1349
01:53:39.594 --> 01:53:43.695
you're saying there's no need to do it because there's no difference in the privacy assumptions.
1350
01:53:44.280 --> 01:53:50.780
So there's no point doing it, and it just lowers liquidity. Obviously, I get the bad part of doing it. It lowers liquidity for both sides, but,
1351
01:53:51.415 --> 01:54:03.030
like, we can't simultaneously say that it's better to use a node than not use a node and that they're exactly the same for their privacy assumptions. Those they they those 2 I never said that they're the same. Like, I
1352
01:54:03.490 --> 01:54:06.630
saying from a transact like, from looking at the blockchain,
1353
01:54:06.945 --> 01:54:07.844
you're not gonna
1354
01:54:08.145 --> 01:54:09.364
see it. Right? So
1355
01:54:09.665 --> 01:54:12.804
that and that's that's what this is about. Like, that is what
1356
01:54:13.505 --> 01:54:15.685
it it all comes down to is
1357
01:54:16.400 --> 01:54:17.780
being able to observe transactions
1358
01:54:18.160 --> 01:54:18.660
and
1359
01:54:19.120 --> 01:54:20.580
make deterministic links
1360
01:54:21.040 --> 01:54:22.020
and attach,
1361
01:54:22.800 --> 01:54:24.180
by looking at the blockchain,
1362
01:54:25.055 --> 01:54:25.555
attach,
1363
01:54:26.255 --> 01:54:26.755
identities
1364
01:54:27.135 --> 01:54:27.635
to,
1365
01:54:28.975 --> 01:54:29.795
to UTXOs.
1366
01:54:30.735 --> 01:54:31.950
Right? That
1367
01:54:32.415 --> 01:54:36.650
that's what that's why people use privacy tool. That's why people coin join.
1368
01:54:37.110 --> 01:54:37.610
Right?
1369
01:54:37.990 --> 01:54:38.490
So
1370
01:54:38.950 --> 01:54:40.650
I I don't see the benefit
1371
01:54:41.190 --> 01:54:42.250
of removing,
1372
01:54:44.035 --> 01:54:46.215
of removing that. Right? And
1373
01:54:46.675 --> 01:54:50.775
maybe maybe 1 in a mix. So light light wallet user.
1374
01:54:51.395 --> 01:54:52.375
But just
1375
01:54:52.750 --> 01:54:54.130
Just to be clear here
1376
01:54:54.910 --> 01:54:56.210
just to be clear here,
1377
01:54:58.110 --> 01:55:05.025
if you're trusting the numbers from Samurais, which is big trust, obviously, there's no way for us to individually verify them.
1378
01:55:07.165 --> 01:55:16.260
They say something like 70%, like, the overwhelming majority of people are using a node other than theirs, whether that's their own node, a friend's node,
1379
01:55:17.120 --> 01:55:26.975
you know, one of those Electrum nodes we mentioned from Sparrow, they're using a node that's not the samurai server. So the so the people using samurai and light mode is maybe
1380
01:55:27.750 --> 01:55:28.570
maybe 30%
1381
01:55:28.949 --> 01:55:32.570
of the anonymity set. So to be clear here, in this situation,
1382
01:55:34.070 --> 01:55:34.570
the
1383
01:55:34.935 --> 01:55:37.995
the people that would be hurt the most from this
1384
01:55:38.455 --> 01:55:40.315
liquidity split would be,
1385
01:55:40.855 --> 01:55:42.395
you know, the less than 30%
1386
01:55:42.855 --> 01:55:43.755
that are using,
1387
01:55:46.040 --> 01:55:53.900
that are that are using samurai server that are not using a different node other than samurai server. It would it would be the live client users who would suffer
1388
01:55:54.335 --> 01:55:55.715
significantly in that situation.
1389
01:55:57.455 --> 01:56:02.675
Yeah. I agree. But on the other hand, the other people would benefit from not
1390
01:56:03.190 --> 01:56:05.610
potentially contaminating what they're doing. And,
1391
01:56:06.150 --> 01:56:07.910
I mean, you have this, potentially
1392
01:56:08.310 --> 01:56:10.170
Yeah. Potentially in the event
1393
01:56:10.585 --> 01:56:13.725
of, like, the catastrophic event that you're referring to.
1394
01:56:14.425 --> 01:56:17.165
Well, I'm glad you agree that it's at least potentially
1395
01:56:17.510 --> 01:56:25.210
possible. But then that would require those people to go through every single, like to like, they would have to dedicate their resources to
1396
01:56:25.625 --> 01:56:29.165
trying to reveal and go through every single mix in the past
1397
01:56:29.625 --> 01:56:30.525
4 years
1398
01:56:31.545 --> 01:56:32.045
and
1399
01:56:32.560 --> 01:56:36.900
figure out ND and and and try to unmix all that stuff. Right? Like,
1400
01:56:37.840 --> 01:56:44.324
sure. If that happens, it's it's bad. Right? I don't think anyone would would argue that if their server is compromised,
1401
01:56:44.625 --> 01:56:47.445
it's would be fine. So to bring it back again,
1402
01:56:48.040 --> 01:56:55.820
I think you both agree that the least amount of the liquidity pool that is using Samurais server, the better.
1403
01:56:57.505 --> 01:57:03.364
Yep. I mean, they yeah. That already yes. That already happens. And and then when you're talking about remixes,
1404
01:57:03.960 --> 01:57:09.580
like, you can almost guarantee that everyone that's remixing. So one only 1 of 2, potentially most
1405
01:57:09.960 --> 01:57:11.340
that it could be is 2,
1406
01:57:11.719 --> 01:57:21.680
and any given mix could be a light wallet. And everyone else is gonna be remixing. Remixing are gonna be coming from people that have something running 247, which means that they're
1407
01:57:22.160 --> 01:57:23.620
99% of the time
1408
01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:25.540
going to be a Dojo user.
1409
01:57:25.840 --> 01:57:26.980
Right? So
1410
01:57:27.520 --> 01:57:31.445
yeah. And then you remix again. If you're one of those people that are concerned about,
1411
01:57:33.985 --> 01:57:40.180
about, like, this, like, oh, a light I've mixed with a light wallet person. Like, one, they're not second class citizens, but I digress.
1412
01:57:40.640 --> 01:57:42.820
The the main thing is that you just remix,
1413
01:57:43.280 --> 01:57:43.940
and then,
1414
01:57:45.520 --> 01:57:58.960
and then what's got now your your chances of being with another person that was a light wallet user has now dropped even more. Right? Somewhat 1 third. And the mission maybe I was 1 or 2, continues to to get a smaller number the more that you remix.
1415
01:57:59.340 --> 01:58:00.160
Right? Like,
1416
01:58:02.060 --> 01:58:04.320
remixing it Matt. Avoid those things.
1417
01:58:05.355 --> 01:58:06.815
Yeah. I would just jump in,
1418
01:58:07.275 --> 01:58:09.034
on one mate, Matt, about,
1419
01:58:09.515 --> 01:58:13.435
the statistic there about 70% being our node and 30% being,
1420
01:58:14.810 --> 01:58:18.349
and the trust According to Samura. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
1421
01:58:19.210 --> 01:58:23.469
unfortunately, the the incentive for them there is not to represent,
1422
01:58:24.125 --> 01:58:30.465
well or to be optimistic there. I think we all agree that it looks better for samurai if Yeah. I think the number is mostly meaningless,
1423
01:58:31.005 --> 01:58:34.100
because you have to rely on so much trust there. But
1424
01:58:34.480 --> 01:58:35.860
but, yeah, gone. Yeah.
1425
01:58:36.800 --> 01:58:44.685
Well, not to be upset, but if that number was way worse, like, only 20% of people are running their own node and 80% of people aren't,
1426
01:58:45.065 --> 01:58:50.365
using Sparrow or using running Dojo with samurai, I'd be like, this is
1427
01:58:50.870 --> 01:58:56.570
this is just doing more harm than Yeah. I genuinely would think. No. I mean, I agree with that statement.
1428
01:58:56.950 --> 01:58:57.770
I would say
1429
01:58:58.310 --> 01:58:58.810
that
1430
01:58:59.725 --> 01:59:01.745
but logic logic wise,
1431
01:59:02.205 --> 01:59:07.985
it it first of all, it go I think it goes to reason that the people that are the majority of liquidity
1432
01:59:08.480 --> 01:59:16.100
liquidity are by people that are using their own new nodes because they're enthusiasts, and they're they care about it, and they're remixing 247.
1433
01:59:17.145 --> 01:59:21.405
So it makes sense to me logically that the majority of liquidity would trend towards
1434
01:59:21.865 --> 01:59:23.565
people that are using their own nodes.
1435
01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:27.500
And then second thing is, ideally, we see more and more
1436
01:59:28.040 --> 01:59:29.099
wallets implement
1437
01:59:30.040 --> 01:59:30.540
Whirlpool
1438
01:59:31.175 --> 01:59:38.395
so that their, you know, their light client users are using whether they're using hand selected Electrum servers like Sparrow or they're using
1439
01:59:40.040 --> 01:59:45.340
a company's node or a friend's node or something like that, it further disperses it out over time.
1440
01:59:47.054 --> 01:59:48.994
I yeah. That's that's correct.
1441
01:59:49.614 --> 01:59:59.750
I think the goal the goal is to have the least amount of liquid like, as low as pot the amount of information Samurais servers hold should be as the least amount of information possible,
1442
02:00:00.290 --> 02:00:01.429
if any at all.
1443
02:00:01.755 --> 02:00:06.795
And the amount of amount of users that are trusting them when they're in these liquidity pools should
1444
02:00:07.595 --> 02:00:09.535
you want it to be as low as possible.
1445
02:00:10.590 --> 02:00:15.010
I agree. And I would what I would like to see is, a greater amount of awareness
1446
02:00:15.389 --> 02:00:37.960
of the fact that there is a trade off in doing that and not that it's something that can be laughed at and dismissed and, oh, you're a green wallet fanboy and all that stuff. Like, I don't want I don't wanna It says that in the when you load on the wallet. It does say that. It says it in the wallet, which is something that we've said multiple times. That's why I'm starting to hand wave it is because I've said it multiple times. And you've already told me you've not used the wallet, so it makes it very frustrating.
1447
02:00:38.565 --> 02:00:46.824
And it that's why I just start hand waving it because Well, I have I have used we've had it. A long time. I used Semerony when it first I used Semerony a lot in 2018.
1448
02:00:47.780 --> 02:00:50.100
I mean, that's great that they have new
1449
02:00:50.660 --> 02:01:01.655
they they have updated their stuff. Have changed since then. Is it they they haven't started a Fresh Wallet since then. Right? But, like, people understand that that's in there. And if you've been in since 2018, you've understood,
1450
02:01:02.369 --> 02:01:12.965
like, what that they've preached and what that they've what they advocate for, right, which is running your own node. Right? People understand the trade offs. People who are using it that are active in the community understand the trade offs.
1451
02:01:13.265 --> 02:01:27.875
Right? Then why then why do I majority of them. Time I have like, either the XPOP leaking is a concern or it isn't. And if I bring it up Leaking. What people It's not leaking. Leaking is is a is not the right term because it it's by default. Like, that
1452
02:01:28.575 --> 02:02:06.655
it's designed that way just like any other wallet. Saying leaking is not correct. That would be making it seem like you're sending that's going to a different source, and it's not. It's like it's using the wallet the way any other wallet would, which is backed by a server, which, again, the reason that their server is that way, the reason that their wallet is designed that way is because of the user user activated soft fork and people having different nodes and running different stuff. They don't want people running BCash. So instead of that, right, they said, hey. If you don't have your own node, you can run ours. This is what we're gonna run, and we're gonna stay on the the Bitcoin core blockchain. This is what we're gonna do. Right? So, like, so that's it. It's like a a you hand wave
1453
02:02:07.035 --> 02:02:13.840
that. So, like, just keep in mind, like, stuff is designed that way. And once that they've designed it in that in that manner, trying to completely undo,
1454
02:02:14.699 --> 02:02:15.599
this this
1455
02:02:15.900 --> 02:02:21.119
architecture that they've built the wallet on, which has been around since 2,000 I wanna say 15,
1456
02:02:21.864 --> 02:02:23.885
is when the wallet came out. So
1457
02:02:25.065 --> 02:02:29.885
you're trying to trying to hand wave out why why would you design something like that? Well, it was it wasn't 2022.
1458
02:02:30.425 --> 02:02:42.055
You know what I mean? Maybe they would do something different if they started from scratch right now, but they have users. They have people that rely on it, and there's a reasons that they do what they do. Right? There's a reason that it was set up like that, and it was because of,
1459
02:02:42.515 --> 02:02:47.560
the user activated soft fork and people not knowing what to do. The question that was asked, I think Matt posted it
1460
02:02:48.120 --> 02:02:48.360
on,
1461
02:02:49.320 --> 02:02:49.800
on,
1462
02:02:50.120 --> 02:03:00.705
Twitter about, you know, like, hey. Make sure you understand the the node rules and consensus because you can opt in and out. Right? So wallet rules apply to node rules too. If people trust me and you more than they do,
1463
02:03:01.165 --> 02:03:06.225
being able to go in and verify, I mean, like, maybe if there's a user activated software again,
1464
02:03:06.750 --> 02:03:16.855
what if we me, like, running dojo has goes one way, and then start 9 goes another. And but users don't know. They're just like, oh, I'm just gonna run it because, you know, I'm using their stuff. You know?
1465
02:03:17.155 --> 02:03:20.295
Like, it it's the same thing, and they that's exactly why they said
1466
02:03:20.675 --> 02:03:24.775
we're gonna use this model because we didn't wanna u they did not want to use,
1467
02:03:25.680 --> 02:03:37.865
that, oh, just a connect to a random node, the SPV type style. We're gonna connect to a random node where you didn't know what you were gonna get. It's a very important detail to, like, try to leave out during a very important time of Bitcoin.
1468
02:03:38.325 --> 02:03:40.825
Right? Like, that was a a very
1469
02:03:41.429 --> 02:03:52.075
controversial time to be going around and to be a wallet developer during that time, and it's hand waving to now to try to retroactively look at them and, like, oh, well, they should have just done this because I think it's
1470
02:03:52.455 --> 02:03:56.315
better. That's great that you think that, but you haven't done it. You weren't there. And,
1471
02:03:56.855 --> 02:04:04.010
like, we're no developers. We're doing a a totally separate separate thing, and that's why, you know, competition will always be there. But, like,
1472
02:04:04.470 --> 02:04:13.885
we have different visions. I could I could break down all of your stuff as well, but you guys have a choices. You guys have a reasons for why you developed the way you did. I'm trying to explain to you why,
1473
02:04:15.145 --> 02:04:16.925
why their server is set up that way.
1474
02:04:17.225 --> 02:04:29.835
And, again, I guarantee you, if, you know, if the world was perfect, they would have no one running on their server. They could just shut it down. But that's not the reality, and that's not where they're at. That's not how they started.
1475
02:04:30.375 --> 02:04:43.090
They try to support as many people as they can to use Bitcoin and to use Bitcoin privately with, yes, with a caveat that you have to have some sort of trust. It is a a trusted model if you're using a light wallet like it is for any other light wallet. It's trusted.
1476
02:04:43.445 --> 02:04:51.785
But I agree with you. We'll get privacy. No. But I agree with everything you're saying here, and this is not what I'm bringing to the table in this debate.
1477
02:04:52.219 --> 02:04:52.719
The
1478
02:04:53.020 --> 02:04:54.239
the the prevailing,
1479
02:04:55.739 --> 02:05:00.400
the zeitgeist in the space and the narrative around what's going on with privacy and Bitcoin,
1480
02:05:00.715 --> 02:05:02.095
There is none of this,
1481
02:05:02.635 --> 02:05:08.175
apologetic, it's a trade off, it's a compromise, it's not our renewal, it provides a good thing, maybe.
1482
02:05:09.170 --> 02:05:28.860
That's never what happens in these debates. These debates always turn into you're a spook. You're a government actor because you're telling people that they shouldn't be, I don't wanna say, leaking their xPubs because you don't like that term. But if you're exposing your xPub to a third party and you're engaging in CoinJoints, you might not be getting what you think you're getting. Whenever I try and bring that point up, I get
1483
02:05:29.160 --> 02:05:45.260
piled on by about 2,000 paying ins telling me that I'm a spook. And I'm like, but this is literally true, and it's what you're saying right now. You're tacitly acknowledging that this is not an ideal solution. There's a compromise that comes with it, and you can't ever highlight it because people jump down your throat, and it's not wrong.
1484
02:05:47.960 --> 02:05:48.940
So for 1,
1485
02:05:49.435 --> 02:05:51.775
I don't have anybody calling anybody a spook.
1486
02:05:52.235 --> 02:05:54.715
I think all of that whole fucking thing is very
1487
02:05:56.290 --> 02:06:01.810
there's a particular Twitter person that I'm not gonna say his name, but I hate when people try to just randomly say that,
1488
02:06:02.370 --> 02:06:07.914
because it's generally people trying to say that it's a spook or people that use it are spooks. So,
1489
02:06:08.375 --> 02:06:10.855
I'm not if people are saying that, that's
1490
02:06:11.255 --> 02:06:12.795
I'm not okay with that. But,
1491
02:06:15.250 --> 02:06:19.590
yeah, the when that debate comes up, that argument comes up that
1492
02:06:19.890 --> 02:06:27.075
it's it's typically because someone framed it saying, oh, you have to have Dojo only pulls. Right? Like, your argument the reason I jumped in,
1493
02:06:28.175 --> 02:06:35.570
one, you said it was retarded to use the wallet, and then you continue to double down by saying, like, using it. You don't actually get any privacy. And
1494
02:06:35.870 --> 02:06:36.350
that's
1495
02:06:37.575 --> 02:06:43.275
like, you don't add the caveat, and so your nuances aren't there. Right? Like, you're you're not
1496
02:06:43.575 --> 02:06:47.035
you're not framing your your position in a way that
1497
02:06:47.570 --> 02:06:48.070
is,
1498
02:06:48.610 --> 02:06:51.349
you know, like this. Like, the way I frame it,
1499
02:06:51.730 --> 02:07:06.510
right, is saying, hey. You can get on chain privacy using semi wall. They have great tools. You need to understand that if you don't run a node, look at that when you open up your wallet and you start a new wallet right now. It'll tell you, hey. You are taking a risk by,
1500
02:07:07.050 --> 02:07:12.910
connecting to our server. We have to use your XPUB in order to provide you addresses. You're not gonna be trusting any other,
1501
02:07:13.425 --> 02:07:16.965
nodes but ours, etcetera, etcetera, whatever this specifically says.
1502
02:07:17.344 --> 02:07:18.405
But you need to,
1503
02:07:19.105 --> 02:07:21.445
like, understand that, one, it's it's
1504
02:07:21.780 --> 02:07:24.600
said. It's advocated to run a node. Right?
1505
02:07:25.060 --> 02:07:25.560
And
1506
02:07:26.020 --> 02:07:27.240
if it like, the
1507
02:07:27.620 --> 02:07:29.240
like, they developed all these things,
1508
02:07:29.565 --> 02:07:31.744
right, Dojo included, in order
1509
02:07:32.205 --> 02:07:40.260
to push people towards running their own note, to being more private, to not having to rely on them. Like, that those are all things that they are doing.
1510
02:07:40.639 --> 02:07:41.139
Right?
1511
02:07:41.520 --> 02:07:42.020
And
1512
02:07:42.800 --> 02:07:46.020
that like, that's that's what I'm trying to say is that, like, you're
1513
02:07:46.335 --> 02:07:53.235
continuously trying to double down, and then you get piled on. And you wonder why people pile on you is because it doesn't make sense.
1514
02:07:53.580 --> 02:08:02.320
It doesn't make sense because people look at it from a real person perspective, which is right now, if I didn't have a node and I wanted to coin join
1515
02:08:02.725 --> 02:08:05.465
and then transact, could anyone look at the blockchain
1516
02:08:06.005 --> 02:08:08.505
and say which one's mine? The answer is no.
1517
02:08:08.885 --> 02:08:09.285
So
1518
02:08:09.765 --> 02:08:20.965
Alright. So that's Yeah. And and your argument is saying, like, yes. You get privacy No. But no. I'm not asking that. That's a Like withdrawal. If they got compromised. And so you're like, okay. So but if,
1519
02:08:21.525 --> 02:08:23.385
like, instead of saying but if, like,
1520
02:08:24.085 --> 02:08:34.310
you just stick with the, hey. You know, it's a great service if you have to use you know, if you don't if you can't run a node, like, and you have to use it, it's still better than using other light wallet
1521
02:08:34.770 --> 02:08:35.750
other light wallets,
1522
02:08:36.210 --> 02:08:37.110
which it is.
1523
02:08:38.715 --> 02:08:39.935
So, like,
1524
02:08:40.235 --> 02:08:44.575
if you're gonna trust a node, at least have one that has some privacy to third party,
1525
02:08:45.275 --> 02:08:45.775
actors,
1526
02:08:47.230 --> 02:08:47.869
Like, we
1527
02:08:48.909 --> 02:08:50.610
I mean, that makes sense to me.
1528
02:08:50.989 --> 02:08:55.889
Right? Like, looking at looking at the blockchain, if you can't look at it and just easily be able to tell,
1529
02:08:57.695 --> 02:09:01.315
then you should be using that one. If you're gonna if you have to use a light wallet.
1530
02:09:02.255 --> 02:09:05.700
Right? Like, that's something that you want to ignore. You just have to use a light wallet.
1531
02:09:06.980 --> 02:09:13.480
Understand the trade offs. Understand that, hey. Someone has those goggles that you can see someone if they're invisible or whatever it is that you want to say.
1532
02:09:14.275 --> 02:09:20.535
There are trade offs, and we we lay them out. We've laid them out many times. There's a claim all the time.
1533
02:09:21.070 --> 02:09:30.675
I gosh. I just installed samurai again and went through all the menus. I I didn't I selected not using a dojo, and it never gave me a warning. Do you mind telling me initial pop up. It says,
1534
02:09:30.994 --> 02:09:34.454
like, the the bird leaving the cage and every and all the other
1535
02:09:34.835 --> 02:09:36.215
I'll pull it up. Jesus.
1536
02:09:37.074 --> 02:09:41.419
Yeah. Just I'm not saying you don't have it. I'm just
1537
02:09:41.834 --> 02:09:44.735
I just wanted to see it. Okay?
1538
02:09:45.375 --> 02:09:45.875
But
1539
02:09:46.735 --> 02:09:47.795
yeah. I mean,
1540
02:09:48.494 --> 02:09:54.034
I'm gonna try to pull this up while we talk. But, yeah, the my my point remains that
1541
02:09:56.060 --> 02:10:02.080
users users who are using LightWallet are using it because they have to, and they still want to transact privately
1542
02:10:02.540 --> 02:10:13.824
on the chain, and they're going to take that risk. That's fine. And I'm sorry if the warning isn't specific enough for you, which is basically what it this has come down to, is that it's not nuanced enough for you in particular.
1543
02:10:15.170 --> 02:10:21.110
Oh, right. I've just found it. You have to, like, swipe right a few times to Oh, you mean, like, continue to make the wallet?
1544
02:10:22.625 --> 02:10:28.065
No. Like, on the first page before you press get started. I I still don't see it. I still don't see whether
1545
02:10:31.330 --> 02:10:37.830
I don't know. The first page says break free of third party custody. Remain in complete control of your wallet at all times. Then you press get started,
1546
02:10:38.745 --> 02:10:39.245
and
1547
02:10:39.625 --> 02:10:41.725
it offers you to choose a backup directory.
1548
02:10:42.265 --> 02:10:53.239
Would you like to enable Tor? I turn it on. Would you like to connect to your own Dojo server? Status not configured. So I'm gonna leave that and just press create new wallet. Then it asked me to make a passphrase.
1549
02:10:54.955 --> 02:11:03.215
And I say, I understand that Stammurai cannot provide assistance in the case of a lost or, you know, my money. It asked me for a PIN now, so I'm putting in my PIN.
1550
02:11:04.460 --> 02:11:04.960
Then,
1551
02:11:05.500 --> 02:11:08.880
it gets me to download my BIP 39 mnemonic.
1552
02:11:09.980 --> 02:11:11.360
Now it shows me the mnemonic,
1553
02:11:11.895 --> 02:11:14.074
and then it tells me my passphrase again.
1554
02:11:14.775 --> 02:11:18.875
And then it says, claim your payment bot and that you're up and running somewhere.
1555
02:11:19.330 --> 02:11:21.270
I don't see actually a warning anywhere.
1556
02:11:26.185 --> 02:11:30.045
Like, I I deeply wanna be wrong about this, so please correct me.
1557
02:11:36.110 --> 02:11:37.570
Yeah. Sure. Give me a second.
1558
02:11:43.995 --> 02:11:47.375
While you're doing that, like, as an aside that shouldn't offend anyone,
1559
02:11:47.755 --> 02:11:49.610
I wish to Christ that,
1560
02:11:50.330 --> 02:11:58.755
XPUB was not called an XPUB. Right? This the last thing you want to be public, apart from your private keys, is your XPUB. Like, this
1561
02:11:59.135 --> 02:12:05.795
is such critical data to keep private, and it's called extended public key, which is just the worst name for it possible.
1562
02:12:08.340 --> 02:12:10.119
No. Yeah. I definitely agree on that.
1563
02:12:10.420 --> 02:12:11.800
I mean yeah. But it's
1564
02:12:12.340 --> 02:12:14.199
that that's like a cryptography.
1565
02:12:15.765 --> 02:12:20.345
Yeah. For sure. It's an embedded term. Like, we're not about to change what we might call it.
1566
02:12:21.285 --> 02:12:21.785
Well,
1567
02:12:22.140 --> 02:12:27.280
yeah. Like, we change hardware while it's assigning. No. I call seed words secret backup words.
1568
02:12:28.540 --> 02:12:30.720
What do you call what do we call next button?
1569
02:12:33.594 --> 02:12:35.855
Like, I I call it, like, a a blueprint
1570
02:12:36.235 --> 02:12:39.215
almost, but that doesn't really It doesn't help that much.
1571
02:12:40.119 --> 02:12:44.780
No. It's not I don't know of a better term. Minero does a decent job with the view key,
1572
02:12:45.239 --> 02:12:47.099
but I don't know if that helps.
1573
02:12:48.765 --> 02:12:51.585
View key better than Next Pub. I mean, Next Pub's pretty bad.
1574
02:12:52.765 --> 02:12:58.680
Yeah. It implies it should be public, which it just shouldn't. Like, I can't think of a good reason ever. Like, unless
1575
02:12:59.140 --> 02:13:01.560
there was, like, talk of bull Bitcoin implementing,
1576
02:13:03.140 --> 02:13:07.534
you know, you would upload an extended public key to the platform, and then your DCA
1577
02:13:07.835 --> 02:13:13.934
would go to a new address every single time. And you can just use BitPay E5 or something like that to generate a unique
1578
02:13:14.635 --> 02:13:15.135
XPUB
1579
02:13:15.889 --> 02:13:16.389
for,
1580
02:13:17.090 --> 02:13:19.030
for each service you use. Right?
1581
02:13:19.489 --> 02:13:30.035
So bull Bitcoin half my xpub, so what? It's a list of addresses that they are gonna know anyway, and I'm never gonna use one of those addresses for anything that isn't bull Bitcoin. So that that to me feels pretty watertight.
1582
02:13:33.430 --> 02:13:35.850
Okay. Yeah. So on their website, they have,
1583
02:13:37.270 --> 02:13:39.370
let's see. Okay. Good. Great.
1584
02:13:40.835 --> 02:13:41.655
So it says,
1585
02:13:43.074 --> 02:13:45.574
similar wallets, unrivaled in transaction privacy,
1586
02:13:46.034 --> 02:13:57.825
but the default configuration is still subject to network level privacy loss. So Singer and Dojo allows you to simply bypass our default servers and circumvent these concerns. Simple. A default center of our wallet will connect to our centrally
1587
02:13:58.285 --> 02:14:01.745
controlled dojo host in Iceland. We do not store logs of IP addresses,
1588
02:14:02.125 --> 02:14:05.105
but you have to take our word for it. By hosting your own dojo
1589
02:14:05.520 --> 02:14:08.179
wallet server, you can bypass our servers and completely,
1590
02:14:08.960 --> 02:14:12.260
service completely when using SamRite Wallet or Sentinel.
1591
02:14:13.520 --> 02:14:15.725
It's where is this? On their website.
1592
02:14:17.385 --> 02:14:17.885
And,
1593
02:14:19.865 --> 02:14:20.845
if it's not
1594
02:14:21.360 --> 02:14:27.220
the I remember I know I've seen it in the wallet, and I don't have the means to start up a new wallet this second.
1595
02:14:28.160 --> 02:14:29.300
But if it's,
1596
02:14:29.745 --> 02:14:33.685
you know, if it's not in there, I know that it's something that's been brought up. So,
1597
02:14:39.140 --> 02:14:39.640
Ultimately,
1598
02:14:40.580 --> 02:14:41.800
I do know that
1599
02:14:43.140 --> 02:14:46.760
that what's it called? The whole Where is it in website? Sorry.
1600
02:14:47.220 --> 02:14:48.600
I'll post it in the chat.
1601
02:14:49.925 --> 02:14:50.425
Thanks.
1602
02:14:53.364 --> 02:14:55.945
Ultimately, this isn't something that's never been
1603
02:14:56.250 --> 02:14:56.989
brought up,
1604
02:14:57.369 --> 02:14:57.869
communicated,
1605
02:14:58.730 --> 02:15:06.655
or easy to you know, if you go on whether it's their Telegram, you go on Twitter, you search any of that stuff, you're going you're gonna
1606
02:15:07.195 --> 02:15:14.735
find tons and tons of responses, tons and tons of, like, openness about it. If you look back to when they first hosted Dojo or first released Whirlpool,
1607
02:15:16.000 --> 02:15:18.420
Like, I even remember when Whirlpool was first,
1608
02:15:19.920 --> 02:15:27.784
released. Dojo hadn't been released yet, if I recall, and everyone was saying don't. So, like, a bunch of people were saying, like, don't do it until you get,
1609
02:15:28.804 --> 02:15:42.800
until you get Dojo running and and do it with Dojo. And saying, well, I will never know. Like, yeah. And and the best practice was to start a fresh wallet. So if you start on Sami Wallet and then you oh, Sami Wallet server and you got Dojo running,
1610
02:15:43.135 --> 02:15:46.675
you know, don't just, like, recover your wallet. Right? You want to
1611
02:15:47.055 --> 02:15:48.115
come back and,
1612
02:15:49.055 --> 02:15:51.235
start a fresh wallet and move your funds over.
1613
02:15:52.740 --> 02:15:55.560
It's the the practice has been part
1614
02:15:56.260 --> 02:16:01.960
of the samurai culture. Like, running a dojo has been part of the samurai culture for as long as dojo's been around.
1615
02:16:02.745 --> 02:16:19.520
Yeah. I'd agree with So But it doesn't mix these warnings up. Like, you have to you want to dojo to click through to the dojo part of the website to then be told the benefits of not using Sunrise service. Like, the warning's in the wrong place. Sure. At the very I look again.
1616
02:16:20.005 --> 02:16:21.864
Zelco, would you agree that
1617
02:16:22.405 --> 02:16:26.025
that it should be it should be very clear to the user on startup,
1618
02:16:27.780 --> 02:16:30.760
the risks of of not using their own node.
1619
02:16:31.540 --> 02:16:32.840
I mean so
1620
02:16:33.141 --> 02:16:43.284
my my only issue isn't with having, like, a warning or whatever. Right? Like, I think that's fine. But as you've already said, Sunrise is the only one that even has any sort of, like,
1621
02:16:44.225 --> 02:16:48.180
description of what's going on. They're the only ones that have done anything that that, like,
1622
02:16:49.120 --> 02:16:55.075
talks about what to do with your stuff. Like, these prompts that are are there, even the ones that you're saying, or stuff that's not in any of the other walls.
1623
02:16:55.795 --> 02:17:37.835
It's our so, like, I get frustrated because, like, yes, I I would love everything to be perfect. But, like, then when you start to talk about, like, appealing to all these different things. Because right now, it's like, oh, well, you know, like, like, the saying having the warning is, like, okay. Cool. You passed the check mark. Then what then what happens? Oh, well, that's I can't believe that's all they have is a thing. They shouldn't even allow people to use the use Ceramic Wallet with their server. It's it's always a goalpost. I'm not saying you're saying it. Just I just think these tools have clear, like, warnings of trade offs at start ups so that I don't have to have a separate 2 hour and 15 minute conversation on a podcast about them. Instead, they could just be at start up.
1624
02:17:38.181 --> 02:17:45.895
I mean, this should be you should make the same argument for everyone. I agree. I 100% agree. I think Sparrow does a fucking fantastic job with it.
1625
02:17:46.935 --> 02:18:02.775
Yep. Yep. You can't doing that. Like, you want you wanna have gone to every reasonable length possible to to educate people and then make their own choices and be sovereign, and then if they don't, that's not your problem anymore. But as far as I can tell, and I'll be honest here, this is not,
1626
02:18:03.655 --> 02:18:05.516
you know, this is not me trying to,
1627
02:18:06.455 --> 02:18:08.636
extend an olive branch or to be needlessly,
1628
02:18:10.136 --> 02:18:10.636
accusing.
1629
02:18:11.360 --> 02:18:17.460
I I think there is a concerted effort in the space to mock people that bring this concern to it and,
1630
02:18:18.080 --> 02:18:34.779
detract and deflect and accuse, you know, make ad hominem arguments and things like that. And then to learn that there's a warning right there in the wallet when you install it, It's on the website. I'm like, okay. Great. And it just turns out there isn't really. Like, there should be an The reason that the reason that,
1631
02:18:35.485 --> 02:18:40.064
like, I I've already said this. The reason that people attack that that stupid that argument,
1632
02:18:40.365 --> 02:18:45.220
right, like, this this whole thing is because of, like it's like a
1633
02:18:45.619 --> 02:19:02.199
again, it's a simple white knighting of, like, everything. It's like, oh, man. Well, like, it's not good enough. It's never good enough. This is never good enough. And it's continuously doing that instead of being like, oh, wow. Like, SemaRock actually does make all the best tools. SemaRock Wild does have the have the best coin joint. SemaRock does have the best post mix tools. Samurai does have,
1634
02:19:02.500 --> 02:19:08.760
they're the only ones until Sparrow came along. The only one with Panem's. Right? They're the only ones that are actually doing something to try to further,
1635
02:19:09.140 --> 02:19:13.675
Bitcoin's privacy. But people wanna sit here and just be like, oh, well, I can't believe they would do that without
1636
02:19:14.055 --> 02:19:30.185
x warning or b warning or whatever it is. Like, I'm all for it. Like, I want I want warnings. I want that stuff. But when it comes down to it, we're like Me too. When it comes down to it, like, people are just like it's it's never gonna be good enough. So what happens is there, yeah, there are a lot of loyal people
1637
02:19:30.485 --> 02:19:31.625
who are hardcore
1638
02:19:32.165 --> 02:19:32.985
samurai people,
1639
02:19:33.445 --> 02:19:46.930
and they're they stand up for their wallet because they see it all the time. Just get constantly dunked on or walked over or people attacking their stuff for no reason, right, or for a reason of, like, what the developers chose to do with their wallet.
1640
02:19:47.365 --> 02:20:02.490
Like, well, guess what? Users are still using it. Like, just No. I think despite all this. Because users do know. People who are Ronin users, people who are Dojo users know this trade off. Right? And that's why that they're Dojo users, they're doing that for the right reason. Right? But
1641
02:20:02.870 --> 02:20:11.976
if we're talking about the the reality, the reality is that, like, all this stuff is already known. It's known. And, like, as a new user, could it be a a perfect onboard?
1642
02:20:12.516 --> 02:20:15.640
Sure. I'll put in a feature request, but, like, ultimately,
1643
02:20:16.180 --> 02:20:30.814
it's the people don't we we start to to push back because we hear so much nonsense and people sitting here saying, like, cheering on Wasabi and saying that, like, oh, it's so great and whatever. But yet they work with coin join, chain analysis,
1644
02:20:31.340 --> 02:20:37.199
and they were they blacklist people. In what world is not everyone saying, like, okay. Like,
1645
02:20:38.140 --> 02:20:39.119
we need to reevaluate.
1646
02:20:39.739 --> 02:20:48.785
Let's at least, like I I see the trade off. I'll run run I'll run Dojo, run and whatever, and I'll use I'll use Samurai and Woolfolk because I know that they're not working with,
1647
02:20:49.670 --> 02:20:56.810
chain analysis. But, yeah, people are still sitting out and telling me that Wasabi is better because because that's ultimately what
1648
02:20:57.190 --> 02:21:02.235
this is is that you've already said it. You're impartial towards mobile wallets. You don't like mobile wallets.
1649
02:21:02.615 --> 02:21:27.779
And so, yeah, there's easy you could pick at anything in a mobile wallet versus a a desktop wallet. Right? But, like, the reality is that people need mobile wallets so they can transact in the streets. They can transact wherever they need to. So Yeah. This is my overall, like, assessment of your position on it. I think it's naive because we know that wasabi Wallet works with chain analysis, and you're saying we know that samurai don't. And I'm saying, how do you know that?
1650
02:21:28.720 --> 02:21:34.979
What indicate okay. So tell me this. We have one that specifically told us. Right? What indications do you have that
1651
02:21:35.716 --> 02:21:36.535
points to,
1652
02:21:37.716 --> 02:21:48.020
Samuel Wallet working with, chain analysis? The point is I don't believe that they are, but we don't know. We we know wasabi is, and we don't know about samurai.
1653
02:21:48.880 --> 02:21:55.755
I don't wanna make a I don't wanna make a argument ad absurd ad absurdum or whatever. But, like, we don't run,
1654
02:21:56.135 --> 02:21:57.275
you know, dotexe
1655
02:21:57.815 --> 02:22:13.064
files and closed source binary that Satoshi run writes for us and releases on a website because we trust him and then go, what indication do we have that Satoshi is compromised? Like, obviously, we don't we want to minimize trust. Like, that we should be on the same team with that, and I don't get why we're not.
1656
02:22:14.564 --> 02:22:19.465
That that we're not on the same page with what? Like, you said that Samara was trust.
1657
02:22:20.890 --> 02:22:32.305
You know, like, you're saying what do I have that they've broken our trust, and I'm saying I don't want to trust them. That's all. Yeah. But you but you're talking about, like, the wallet. Like, you're talking about the wallet, and that's really what it comes down to.
1658
02:22:32.845 --> 02:22:41.090
Right? Like, one is the coordinator. The other is not a coordinator. Right? Like, like, they're both or sorry. Let me rephrase that. Wasabi and Samir are both front coordinators.
1659
02:22:42.029 --> 02:22:43.330
Right? So it's important
1660
02:22:43.775 --> 02:22:49.875
if you know that one is working with chain analysis. And if you don't know if the other is or is not, having some sort of indication
1661
02:22:50.655 --> 02:22:51.716
is probably important.
1662
02:22:52.510 --> 02:22:58.050
And I I would I would argue that if you're going to Do you look at the same one that's not say that somebody
1663
02:22:58.510 --> 02:23:08.595
is the one that's been forthright about the fact that they're compromised and the samurai isn't, which actually makes Western Army more ethical. I'm not saying that's my position, but it's not clear cut. It's not black and white.
1664
02:23:08.960 --> 02:23:10.739
The fact that What's not black and white?
1665
02:23:11.840 --> 02:23:12.500
The fact
1666
02:23:12.880 --> 02:23:17.300
that one openly works with chain analysis and one either doesn't work with chain analysis
1667
02:23:17.605 --> 02:23:29.620
or lies about the fact that they do Well you go with Oh, let me tell you how it'd be very very easy to debunk, like, them working for the chain analysis. Right? In order for chain analysis to be effective with SamRwalt, right,
1668
02:23:30.240 --> 02:23:31.300
you would need what?
1669
02:23:31.920 --> 02:23:37.165
You need some sort of information, or they would need to be able they would want what more x pubs.
1670
02:23:37.545 --> 02:23:43.085
Right? That's what they would want because I could just give that over. So if you don't see that Yeah.
1671
02:23:44.490 --> 02:23:47.950
If if you're not seeing more users being pushed towards,
1672
02:23:48.730 --> 02:23:52.030
samurai server, right, or if you're not seeing,
1673
02:23:52.705 --> 02:23:59.205
you know, whatever it like, you're not seeing it. Right? You're not seeing the trend towards more expoaks being captured.
1674
02:23:59.840 --> 02:24:03.220
I don't see how you could sit there. Like, more development is happening
1675
02:24:03.680 --> 02:24:04.180
towards,
1676
02:24:05.840 --> 02:24:07.939
towards the node side of it
1677
02:24:08.315 --> 02:24:29.375
than there is versus Wasabi, which is openly blacklisting. Their coordinator is openly blacklisting. You have one that is blind using Tor changing addresses and never have to see the other side of it. They worked with another wallet to implement. The other wallet worked with them, but Sparrow implements it so that there is, a whole liquidity pool that cannot be done by that. If Standard Wallet wanted
1678
02:24:30.635 --> 02:24:35.694
to farm out these XPubs, when they say that we don't want them so that we have a higher,
1679
02:24:36.409 --> 02:24:42.909
a higher rate of light wallet users so we could give that information to Chainalysis, wouldn't that make more sense?
1680
02:24:43.485 --> 02:24:47.186
They would want they would want less help. They would want more people to be mixing with LightWallet.
1681
02:24:47.645 --> 02:24:48.145
Correct?
1682
02:24:50.846 --> 02:24:53.186
Sorry. Can you rephrase?
1683
02:24:53.630 --> 02:24:56.850
If my zone now. If SamRite Wallet
1684
02:24:57.550 --> 02:24:58.689
was working with Chainalysis,
1685
02:24:59.790 --> 02:25:02.050
they would want to limit the amount of people
1686
02:25:02.565 --> 02:25:10.105
that no. They wouldn't want Sparrow to implement it. Right? Because they they would have no xpubs, and they would want more light wallet users because they have their xpubs.
1687
02:25:10.806 --> 02:25:11.306
So
1688
02:25:12.510 --> 02:25:13.010
if
1689
02:25:13.630 --> 02:25:24.545
they worked, they they would have Spare Wallet use a separate pool, but they didn't. Yeah. You're acting like there's only ever one incentive in a situation, and that's just not the case. There would be a whole bunch of incentives.
1690
02:25:25.645 --> 02:25:34.211
I mean One of them yeah. Look. There's incentive for samurai to not wanna betray their users, and there's incentives for them to want to betray their users. Like, they all exist.
1691
02:25:35.391 --> 02:25:35.891
Okay.
1692
02:25:37.150 --> 02:25:38.290
Yeah. I mean,
1693
02:25:39.936 --> 02:25:42.436
I don't I, like, I I don't know how to,
1694
02:25:43.455 --> 02:25:47.075
how to argue against, like like, actual incentives
1695
02:25:50.770 --> 02:25:55.189
because, like, I've I just laid out the incentives, and you said, like, it doesn't matter. So,
1696
02:25:55.835 --> 02:26:04.895
the whole incentive. This is why this is why the VPN analogy works. It's just part of the trust model. You're not there's no way to to to prove
1697
02:26:05.290 --> 02:26:08.750
that the server is compromised or acting malicious,
1698
02:26:09.850 --> 02:26:16.045
and users should be aware of that and that trust model if they're gonna use it. I mean, I I recommend
1699
02:26:16.425 --> 02:26:16.925
molvad.net
1700
02:26:17.545 --> 02:26:21.325
for VPN usage, and one of the reasons is because they're very clear
1701
02:26:21.870 --> 02:26:25.490
that they say they don't take logs, but there's no way for you to verify it.
1702
02:26:26.590 --> 02:26:32.605
Right. But I I just wanna be clear here because I said this earlier, and I was incorrect.
1703
02:26:33.945 --> 02:26:39.165
Both me and Zelko said it. I spun up a new samurai wallet. It does not warn you,
1704
02:26:40.489 --> 02:26:46.109
of the risks of using their server. I I mean, I personally would like to see a clear warning there.
1705
02:26:46.890 --> 02:26:50.955
It does give you the option to immediately connect to Dojo, like, first thing,
1706
02:26:51.415 --> 02:26:54.234
but it doesn't say, like, what that benefit would be.
1707
02:26:55.175 --> 02:26:59.601
It's like a simple text, you know, use this so you don't have to trust us.
1708
02:27:00.860 --> 02:27:03.980
Yeah. That would that would make this whole thing a a very,
1709
02:27:04.625 --> 02:27:12.485
happy Then it wouldn't matter. Outcome. Right? Like, everything else would be fine? I just want trade offs to be clear. It's my Yeah. I mean, like, sure. We'll we'll,
1710
02:27:13.110 --> 02:27:29.415
the Like, if if we're putting people need to keep coming along and, like, creating issues and complaining about stuff that you're rolling your eyes at because it's been done to death, but it results in a warning that makes users more educated and aware of the trade offs, then I'm glad I did it. I mean, like,
1711
02:27:30.750 --> 02:27:33.810
I just see it. I'm, like, looking at it from the point of, like,
1712
02:27:34.430 --> 02:27:35.649
you know, we
1713
02:27:36.830 --> 02:27:51.579
commute like, samurai community has been doing this for so long, and it's just like it's funny that it's like, oh, well, in order to get my stamp of approval, it needs this thing. And it's it's okay. Like, that's sure. Like, that's fine. And, you know, like,
1714
02:27:51.880 --> 02:27:54.140
you might waste some of the the you
1715
02:27:54.600 --> 02:27:56.859
know, like, maybe that's something I'd put in. But,
1716
02:27:57.875 --> 02:28:04.855
you know, like, it doesn't like, you may seem like, oh, this like, everything else is fine. And so your your stance on everything else
1717
02:28:05.475 --> 02:28:05.975
like,
1718
02:28:07.141 --> 02:28:11.801
your initial point, your initial statement wasn't about a warning. Your initial statement was about,
1719
02:28:13.061 --> 02:28:13.721
you know,
1720
02:28:14.235 --> 02:28:16.095
if you use these tools without,
1721
02:28:18.795 --> 02:28:19.375
you know,
1722
02:28:19.835 --> 02:28:23.215
without Dojo, it's useless or it's a larp, and
1723
02:28:23.700 --> 02:28:26.760
that was what I was upset about. That's what I think is absurd.
1724
02:28:27.140 --> 02:28:27.640
So,
1725
02:28:28.580 --> 02:28:32.600
like, you you haven't been able to debunk anything other than saying, like, well,
1726
02:28:33.165 --> 02:28:35.505
yeah, it works until their their,
1727
02:28:35.965 --> 02:28:36.944
server's compromised.
1728
02:28:37.645 --> 02:28:41.665
Okay. Well, until someone gets arrested, you can let me know. But,
1729
02:28:44.110 --> 02:28:48.450
yeah. Yeah. Chips Ahoy because they're very clear about it on the website and in general.
1730
02:28:49.311 --> 02:28:53.735
I just oh, yeah. That's why I was wrong. I mean, because they are so clear about it on the website.
1731
02:28:54.355 --> 02:29:02.720
Yeah. We talked about it all. Yeah. I just personally would like to see more wallets in general do that, and I know I know in an open source
1732
02:29:03.100 --> 02:29:03.600
situation,
1733
02:29:04.060 --> 02:29:09.200
anyone can fork it and add that warning label. They don't wanna add it, and I I respect that.
1734
02:29:09.795 --> 02:29:16.854
But I personally would just like to see warning labels on I would trade offs explained to people on start ups so they don't need separate education.
1735
02:29:17.520 --> 02:29:22.580
Yeah. I think, I think there could be start up warnings on on, like,
1736
02:29:23.120 --> 02:29:31.955
obviously, all wallets, but, like, it'd be good for the big heavy hitter ones to have stuff like that. Yeah. Like, boot up ledger live. When you boot up ledger live, it should tell you
1737
02:29:32.311 --> 02:30:04.444
you're using Ledger's servers. Which is great. What's Barrow give us a list of warnings? I mean, like, we Our intent Yeah. To educate you. You've got no dog in the fight. Right? They want you to use what's best, and they don't suffer if you don't. Yeah. That's the point. They're missing revenue. Like, there's no incentive there, at least anything like to the extent. If someone sees a big red letter warning that says, warning. If you do this without Dojo, your privacy is you can no longer make any of the expectations to the same extent that you could if you were running Dojo. And they go, well, I'm not running That's not I can't. I'm not gonna use it. Like, it's
1738
02:30:04.990 --> 02:30:05.150
you
1739
02:30:06.430 --> 02:30:18.056
like, that's see, like, that's that's the line that that we're talking. I wanna know. We keep saying, like, you you you not could have privacy if you if you use our server. No one's gonna put that because it's not that is not the situation.
1740
02:30:18.436 --> 02:30:33.215
That's not that's not the case. Like, it's don't use our, you know, don't use our server so that you can maintain optimal privacy or whatever it is. Like, you know, that's that is a very different statement than you saying that you won't have privacy if you use,
1741
02:30:33.835 --> 02:30:36.815
if you opt to not run Dojo. Right? So, like,
1742
02:30:38.170 --> 02:30:45.069
you you have to, like, understand the difference of what, like, what you're trying to to articulate because they're 2 different things.
1743
02:30:45.555 --> 02:31:13.449
You have on your privacy. You've not proven I can't VPN on. If you're turning around and saying, like, your ISP has no financial incentive to keep your stuff private, A VPN provider does. If they get caught leaking data, then they lose business. Right? But are you gonna tell me that there isn't a honeypot VPN out there? Like, of course, there are. So it stands to reason that so I'm trying to sorry for the what aboutism, but there's going to be a privacy wallet in Bitcoin at some point that is a honeypot.
1744
02:31:13.750 --> 02:31:28.780
And so we wanna look out for the signs of that, and we wanna minimize the mechanisms by which we can hurt ourselves by using it. Like, if wasabi team is all FBI agents, I don't care because they don't get any data that actually hurts me. They just do something I find politically
1745
02:31:29.240 --> 02:31:29.740
disagreeable,
1746
02:31:30.200 --> 02:31:34.700
but it doesn't change what their actual software does. No. Their software just works. So at all.
1747
02:31:35.385 --> 02:31:39.885
But that's a different case. No. I I I see what you're saying. Like, that's fine. Right?
1748
02:31:41.465 --> 02:31:44.870
But, like, it doesn't it doesn't change the fact that, like, your
1749
02:31:45.250 --> 02:31:51.590
users that need it now, like, we're, like we can talk about the future. You can talk about improvement, all that stuff.
1750
02:31:52.096 --> 02:31:52.596
Sure.
1751
02:31:53.056 --> 02:31:53.556
But
1752
02:31:53.936 --> 02:31:55.395
telling users right now,
1753
02:31:55.936 --> 02:32:02.431
don't use it or it's harmful to use it is wrong. That's not correct. You've not yet proven.
1754
02:32:02.971 --> 02:32:08.511
I want I'm not gonna end the debate with you trying to say that there's harm in users for using Whirlpool,
1755
02:32:09.205 --> 02:32:10.345
on a light wallet
1756
02:32:11.285 --> 02:32:15.064
when they if that's what they need to do. Right? Like,
1757
02:32:15.524 --> 02:32:24.750
if they need a light wallet, they could they can use it. They can break deterministic links, spend, move on. And that's harmful if assumptions are wrong.
1758
02:32:25.370 --> 02:32:25.870
What?
1759
02:32:27.135 --> 02:32:32.995
If their assumptions about what using the light wallet provides for them privacy wise are wrong, then that is harmful.
1760
02:32:34.095 --> 02:32:36.354
How so? They're getting on chain privacy,
1761
02:32:36.700 --> 02:32:50.725
and they've already been explained all this stuff. So explain to me how because this this is this is, like, the point that I'm I'm getting at. Because you gotta look at like like, you're talking about in this idea that they're working, and it's fine. I get it. Like, we need to have,
1762
02:32:51.904 --> 02:32:54.645
you know, adversarial thinking, and that's fine.
1763
02:32:55.030 --> 02:33:04.485
If they are they they can treat them. They can take care of themselves and figure out, hey. Do I is my adversary a samurai, or is my adversary,
1764
02:33:05.585 --> 02:33:08.785
you know, chain analysis or third party? Because, like, that's
1765
02:33:09.410 --> 02:33:17.030
it's typically the state, and it's typically gonna be law enforcement if they're really concerned about whatever it is. So if they're concerned about it
1766
02:33:17.516 --> 02:33:21.775
and they can't run a node or they are choosing not to run a node for whatever reason,
1767
02:33:22.875 --> 02:33:24.895
they can still have on chain privacy.
1768
02:33:25.460 --> 02:33:35.035
On chain is is what we're looking at. Right? Yeah. But that's the point. They can point, though. But Is You've acknowledged over and over again in this discussion
1769
02:33:35.415 --> 02:33:38.155
that it's better to use Dojo than you use.
1770
02:33:39.335 --> 02:33:43.436
It's better to use Sami Wallet than it is to transact
1771
02:33:43.780 --> 02:33:44.600
with a straight
1772
02:33:45.940 --> 02:33:46.920
whatever wallet,
1773
02:33:47.540 --> 02:33:51.240
right, that uses normal Bitcoin transactions. It's better
1774
02:33:51.665 --> 02:33:55.845
to use a light wallet to mix, break the term and stick links on the chain,
1775
02:33:56.705 --> 02:33:58.485
and take a small risk.
1776
02:33:59.080 --> 02:34:05.819
Right? With only It's better to do that until you can run a new totally better. Do whatever. That's right. It's better than doing
1777
02:34:06.359 --> 02:34:06.859
nothing.
1778
02:34:07.239 --> 02:34:08.540
It's better than
1779
02:34:09.145 --> 02:34:13.965
not doing the transaction. Love it as doing the full going full hog.
1780
02:34:16.070 --> 02:34:18.170
I can't I didn't hear what you said. What did you say?
1781
02:34:18.630 --> 02:34:25.130
It's not better to use the like client if your assumptions about the like client are that it affords you the same benefit of using Dojo.
1782
02:34:26.335 --> 02:34:29.235
But when, like, when has that ever been said?
1783
02:34:30.815 --> 02:34:33.475
And that's just because that's just your implication of the warning?
1784
02:34:35.130 --> 02:34:35.630
No.
1785
02:34:36.090 --> 02:34:42.189
Yes. The warning should make it clear that they are different. Yes. But you you are putting out that the the warning
1786
02:34:42.490 --> 02:34:43.470
has to be
1787
02:34:43.905 --> 02:34:45.845
something along the lines of,
1788
02:34:46.385 --> 02:34:47.045
you know,
1789
02:34:47.425 --> 02:34:52.564
your your data is compromised or your point your privacy is compromised, and it's not compromised.
1790
02:34:53.440 --> 02:34:56.180
Once there is there is a chance of whatever,
1791
02:34:56.720 --> 02:35:04.975
you know, there is a chance that could happen, but, like, you're trying to make this assumption that it is right now that you're that moving forward, you have no,
1792
02:35:06.154 --> 02:35:07.295
that you have no privacy.
1793
02:35:07.914 --> 02:35:11.055
It's like, well, if I need privacy from
1794
02:35:11.530 --> 02:35:12.110
my employer,
1795
02:35:13.210 --> 02:35:14.270
like Matt said,
1796
02:35:15.290 --> 02:35:20.830
yeah. You have do you have to private transactional privacy from your employer? You have the privacy.
1797
02:35:21.436 --> 02:35:25.936
It depends on who your privacy who you're trying your privacy from. So, like,
1798
02:35:26.315 --> 02:35:30.575
that's that's a delineation I'm trying to make with you that you you're still unwilling to accept,
1799
02:35:31.739 --> 02:35:36.640
and that's fine. You can you can have I'm not saying there's no I'm not saying there are circumstances
1800
02:35:37.020 --> 02:35:52.310
where using just the light client You are. Doesn't create a threat model to having not used it at all. Okay? I'm not I also won't concede, though, that that is strictly better than just operating publicly on base chain. I'm trying to say that we definitely
1801
02:35:52.610 --> 02:35:54.390
have obviously over and over agreed
1802
02:35:54.930 --> 02:35:57.270
on the fact that using Ronin Dojo
1803
02:35:58.005 --> 02:36:01.465
with the samurai wallet instead of using it as a light client
1804
02:36:01.845 --> 02:36:07.670
is better. The fact that it is better and that you agree with that means we can make a statement that tells people
1805
02:36:16.185 --> 02:36:19.645
I mean, I I I feel like no. That's that's fine. No. No. You're fine.
1806
02:36:20.505 --> 02:36:23.404
What I'm gathering the statement. Is it Yeah. Best case,
1807
02:36:23.784 --> 02:36:25.645
use Dojo, use Turn Dojo
1808
02:36:25.960 --> 02:36:26.460
better.
1809
02:36:27.560 --> 02:36:30.220
Like, take the assumption. Right? Take the risk.
1810
02:36:30.600 --> 02:36:31.340
And then,
1811
02:36:31.880 --> 02:36:35.705
like, the worst case scenario, use, like, Wasabi or something. Right?
1812
02:36:38.025 --> 02:36:40.605
I'm just kidding. That was a joke. I'm just kidding. Realistic.
1813
02:36:41.145 --> 02:36:48.659
Yeah. No. I'm just like I think I think we've talked in circles that so much that it's kind of, like, pointless to this point just because,
1814
02:36:49.939 --> 02:36:53.159
it's very, like, nuanced of what we're talking about.
1815
02:36:54.295 --> 02:36:54.795
And,
1816
02:36:55.255 --> 02:36:56.395
like, the
1817
02:36:57.015 --> 02:36:57.755
the debate
1818
02:36:58.935 --> 02:36:59.435
like,
1819
02:37:00.295 --> 02:37:03.354
I I was heated when I when I started this whole thing because,
1820
02:37:04.200 --> 02:37:08.460
you know, if I look through the the tweet thread, it's like, oh, more like,
1821
02:37:09.400 --> 02:37:18.125
you know, samurai is fed or samurai is this and blah blah blah blah blah. And it's like, I'm I, like, can't help but get heated. Right? And
1822
02:37:19.386 --> 02:37:24.120
we we start to debate, and I'm making these points. And, like, we're just talking circles because
1823
02:37:24.660 --> 02:37:26.920
you you're operating in a very high
1824
02:37:27.380 --> 02:37:27.880
adversarial
1825
02:37:28.420 --> 02:37:30.920
mindset versus, like, a normal person mindset,
1826
02:37:31.695 --> 02:37:37.475
which is fine. There is a level that that we should have. Like, we we should have people who think adversarially.
1827
02:37:37.854 --> 02:37:41.075
I'm okay with that. Right? But I'm not okay with
1828
02:37:41.601 --> 02:37:42.900
not being able to accept
1829
02:37:43.280 --> 02:37:52.085
that there is adversarial thinking, and then there is, like, okay, the reality of, like, there are normal people who need to use this normally. Right?
1830
02:37:52.465 --> 02:37:55.125
And so you you have to be able to step back sometimes,
1831
02:37:55.505 --> 02:37:58.325
right, and think a little less adversarial
1832
02:37:58.851 --> 02:38:05.110
to be able to, like, understand why something is the way it is. Right? Like, normal people need to to
1833
02:38:05.490 --> 02:38:07.910
operate this like, might need to operate this way.
1834
02:38:08.365 --> 02:38:11.665
And so Yeah. And that's why if if, like
1835
02:38:12.285 --> 02:38:20.090
because your your whole, like, argument is is about this. It's literally about a is adversarial thinking. That's fine. Yeah.
1836
02:38:20.470 --> 02:38:21.689
But but, like adversarial
1837
02:38:22.229 --> 02:38:23.449
as opposed to optimization.
1838
02:38:23.750 --> 02:38:28.385
That and that's okay. And that's why and there's an option for you. Right? There's an option for you.
1839
02:38:28.765 --> 02:38:30.385
Dojo. Right? Cool.
1840
02:38:30.925 --> 02:38:34.225
There's there is an option for people who are not adversarial,
1841
02:38:34.530 --> 02:38:37.190
care, or they are not adversarial against,
1842
02:38:39.011 --> 02:38:39.511
against
1843
02:38:39.891 --> 02:38:41.730
Sam Roth Wallet. So that's
1844
02:38:43.035 --> 02:38:46.255
I I think that we can agree on on,
1845
02:38:47.515 --> 02:38:51.615
like, where your mindset is and why it differentiates from everyday people.
1846
02:38:53.101 --> 02:38:57.761
But, yeah, I kinda agree with the some of the people on the chat. Like, is this still going?
1847
02:38:58.780 --> 02:39:04.655
Yep. It's because we we have been calling in circles for a long time, and that's why I'm, like, trying not to bash my face into my keyboard right
1848
02:39:06.476 --> 02:39:07.755
now. Yeah. That's
1849
02:39:08.315 --> 02:39:11.136
I don't I don't think there's much else that I have to add. Matt?
1850
02:39:11.640 --> 02:39:13.500
Thanks, Elko. You wanna,
1851
02:39:13.960 --> 02:39:16.859
mechanic, you wanna wrap us up with some final thoughts, and then,
1852
02:39:17.399 --> 02:39:20.540
well well, then this bad boy, we've been gone for 2 hours and 40 minutes.
1853
02:39:20.855 --> 02:39:21.355
Jesus.
1854
02:39:21.815 --> 02:39:29.035
Yeah. I failed it wrapping up last time. Yeah. You did. Try again. I don't I don't want obtuseness. Right? Like, as Chip said
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:23:12 PM
Duration: 9662.824
Channels: 1
1
00:00:31.260 --> 00:00:36.720
2
00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:40.895
This episode, it will be slightly different than our normal conversations
3
00:00:41.355 --> 00:00:43.295
on dispatch. We're trying a new format,
4
00:00:44.475 --> 00:00:47.295
for this specific situation. It's gonna be a debate.
5
00:00:47.930 --> 00:00:51.309
We might have more debates on the channel going forward.
6
00:00:51.770 --> 00:00:52.989
Before we get started,
7
00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:57.070
I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show.
8
00:00:58.045 --> 00:01:03.745
As many of you are already aware, dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors,
9
00:01:04.284 --> 00:01:06.305
and I could not do it without you.
10
00:01:06.770 --> 00:01:13.350
The easiest way to support the show is by using a podcasting 2.0 app, such as fountain podcast,
11
00:01:13.945 --> 00:01:14.445
Breezewallet,
12
00:01:15.145 --> 00:01:15.884
or podverse.fm.
13
00:01:16.825 --> 00:01:21.085
There are also many other podcasting apps that use the podcasting 2.0 standard.
14
00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:25.159
You simply use them like a regular podcast app, search still dispatch,
15
00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:33.555
press the subscribe button, choose how many sats per minute you think dispatch is worth to you. And as you listen, it will stream sats directly to my node.
16
00:01:34.015 --> 00:01:38.675
Podcasting 2.0 also supports a feature called boostograms, where you can do a single,
17
00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:46.420
a single payment that includes a message, and I read those read the top 4 of those from the previous episode,
18
00:01:48.235 --> 00:01:48.975
every rip.
19
00:01:49.435 --> 00:01:51.615
You can also support the show by going to cildispatch.com.
20
00:01:52.155 --> 00:01:56.655
I have a BTC pay server there where you can send stats via
21
00:01:57.340 --> 00:01:59.280
an on chain payment or lightning.
22
00:01:59.659 --> 00:02:02.880
And I also have my pay name there, which you can pay from
23
00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:07.675
Samura wallet or Sparrow Wallet. My pay name is Odell. Very easy to remember.
24
00:02:08.295 --> 00:02:12.695
So shout out to all the freaks who continue to support the show. And if you do not, you know, I know it's
25
00:02:13.770 --> 00:02:18.830
I know we're in down down market right now. We're in a bear market right now, and, I know stats are tough
26
00:02:19.450 --> 00:02:22.350
to spare. If you do not have stats to spare,
27
00:02:22.655 --> 00:02:28.355
simply subscribing on your favorite platform, leaving a review, sharing it with your friends and family is greatly appreciated.
28
00:02:28.814 --> 00:02:38.770
As always, Serial Dispatch is broadcast on Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, Bitcoin TV, and is available in all your favorite podcast apps. So thank you. And once again,
29
00:02:39.325 --> 00:02:42.705
dispatch is a unique show in that we have a live audience,
30
00:02:43.565 --> 00:02:49.990
tuning in from Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, and matrix chat. The matrix chat, you can find at citadel dispatch.com
31
00:02:50.290 --> 00:02:52.230
by clicking that citadel chat button.
32
00:02:52.610 --> 00:02:55.670
So we will be interacting with the audience as we usually do,
33
00:02:56.175 --> 00:03:00.995
and I want to thank the freaks that join us in the live chat because you make this a special experience.
34
00:03:01.614 --> 00:03:07.560
So before we get started, I'm just gonna read the top four boosts from the last dispatch, which was with Adam Back.
35
00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:09.640
So dispatch 75.
36
00:03:10.100 --> 00:03:18.135
We have at Nate Johnson contributed 50,000 sats. Says, this show is invaluable. I appreciate all you do for the space. Hope your family is okay.
37
00:03:18.435 --> 00:03:19.895
We have Mallard Quackenbush
38
00:03:20.195 --> 00:03:22.535
with 20,000 sets saying meow meow.
39
00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:26.379
Very insightful, Mallard. Appreciate it. We have letter 6173
40
00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.900
saying, when sat girl summer with 7,777
41
00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:31.900
sets.
42
00:03:32.445 --> 00:03:34.065
And we have 8 mythrander
43
00:03:35.405 --> 00:03:35.905
saying,
44
00:03:36.285 --> 00:03:38.625
Adam is the real one, 5,001
45
00:03:39.165 --> 00:03:49.125
sets. So I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show. I do appreciate you. You can look up the remaining boostograms on your favorite podcasting 2.0 app. They're open for all.
46
00:03:49.425 --> 00:03:50.965
So without further ado,
47
00:03:51.345 --> 00:03:53.125
let's get started on this debate.
48
00:03:53.825 --> 00:03:55.125
I had Zelco.
49
00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.860
We have we have BTC Zelco in the house, a return guest. How's it going, Zelco?
50
00:04:01.480 --> 00:04:04.920
51
00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:07.465
excited to squash some of this,
52
00:04:08.665 --> 00:04:09.644
these myths
53
00:04:10.025 --> 00:04:13.590
that that we would have. So yeah. No. I'm I'm excited. Life's good.
54
00:04:14.550 --> 00:04:15.370
55
00:04:15.910 --> 00:04:19.930
who are not aware, Zelco works with the Ronin Dojo project,
56
00:04:20.389 --> 00:04:21.530
a full node,
57
00:04:23.235 --> 00:04:24.375
a full node solution,
58
00:04:25.315 --> 00:04:28.995
particularly suited for using the samurai stack. We also have,
59
00:04:29.475 --> 00:04:33.210
mechanic in the house who goes by Grasp Fed Bitcoin on Twitter.
60
00:04:33.590 --> 00:04:34.810
How's it going, mechanic?
61
00:04:36.070 --> 00:04:38.090
Hey. Good, man. Thanks for having me.
62
00:04:38.470 --> 00:04:39.530
Pleasure is mine.
63
00:04:40.525 --> 00:04:43.025
He works for Start 9 Labs.
64
00:04:44.365 --> 00:04:47.345
Another full node option available to Bitcoiners.
65
00:04:48.940 --> 00:04:55.040
So today's debate prompt is, are the trade offs of Samura wallets, light client mode, a benefit to users?
66
00:04:55.695 --> 00:04:56.675
This all started
67
00:04:57.375 --> 00:04:58.595
with a tweet
68
00:04:58.975 --> 00:05:00.995
that went out by Grass Fed Bitcoin.
69
00:05:02.095 --> 00:05:10.600
Zelco and him had a back and forth, and then they decided to rope me in, tag me in the tweet, and say, let's have this debate live on air.
70
00:05:12.385 --> 00:05:16.725
Boys, before we get started, I wanna keep this as civil as possible. I do have
71
00:05:17.345 --> 00:05:19.925
god power over both of you and can mute.
72
00:05:20.990 --> 00:05:27.090
I do not wanna use that power. I've never used that power, but I do have. No. I promise I promise to be very respectful.
73
00:05:27.470 --> 00:05:29.410
74
00:05:29.865 --> 00:05:31.325
75
00:05:32.505 --> 00:05:33.645
76
00:05:34.345 --> 00:05:46.350
77
00:05:47.025 --> 00:05:48.005
I actually don't.
78
00:05:48.465 --> 00:05:49.685
79
00:05:50.305 --> 00:05:51.044
They said,
80
00:05:51.824 --> 00:05:59.830
what's the opposite of galaxy brain meme template? I need something where the person just gets more and more retarded until they end up using samurai wallet.
81
00:06:02.770 --> 00:06:05.005
So that's the that's the initial tweet.
82
00:06:06.525 --> 00:06:10.065
83
00:06:11.165 --> 00:06:12.445
The reason I think it's,
84
00:06:13.485 --> 00:06:13.985
well,
85
00:06:14.409 --> 00:06:22.030
I like the title of the debate, how you framed it already, because that acknowledges that there is at least a trade off to doing it, using in,
86
00:06:23.565 --> 00:06:26.225
the manner in which you're not using your own node.
87
00:06:26.685 --> 00:06:30.370
And, consequently, if you're engaging in coin joins, you're leaking your XPub,
88
00:06:30.690 --> 00:06:33.350
which to me invalidates the whole charm and blinding,
89
00:06:34.130 --> 00:06:43.435
which is what people think imagine the purpose of doing coin joints is in the first place. And my issue is with the general framing in the space, which is not that,
90
00:06:45.014 --> 00:06:46.794
you just shouldn't do it that way.
91
00:06:47.600 --> 00:07:02.945
Instead, it's you can do it that way, and there's a better way, which is to run something like running dojo and connect samurai to it, and or use Whirlpool through Sparrow or something like that. And to be clear, I think those are great projects. ZELCO, I really like Ronin Dojo, and
92
00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:06.040
other people in my company, as you pointed out in our debate,
93
00:07:07.300 --> 00:07:08.500
are fans of it. Like,
94
00:07:08.900 --> 00:07:15.324
Dave Crosson, for example. He's a big fan of the project, and as you mentioned, he's done stuff with you on it.
95
00:07:15.625 --> 00:07:16.125
So,
96
00:07:16.505 --> 00:07:18.365
likewise, that will likely be implemented
97
00:07:18.745 --> 00:07:21.005
in some fashion on start 9,
98
00:07:21.820 --> 00:07:25.580
on the embassy, and, people have come at me with,
99
00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:35.625
accusations of hypocrisy and things like that because I work for Star 9, and what am I doing? What's, what am I talking about? My company likes it. Am I gonna quit? Yada yada yada.
100
00:07:36.324 --> 00:07:46.525
So, no, I don't want to do any of that. I I want to give respect my respect to you. Samurai even does, if I can steal my own samurai as much as possible, even does something which I find really hard
101
00:07:46.925 --> 00:07:57.259
to find outside of samurai wallet, which is if you set it up to connect to your own full mode and your node is offline for some reason, it won't work, which is great. Because things like Electrum,
102
00:07:58.919 --> 00:08:00.139
so many other wallets,
103
00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:02.460
where where privacy is a concern,
104
00:08:03.074 --> 00:08:05.255
and they have some sort of SPV mode,
105
00:08:05.634 --> 00:08:20.190
they will just fail they will just fall back to running public nodes and then betray all your privacy. It only takes one mistake to ruin privacy. Right? So, samurai, to their credit, don't do that. If the node isn't running and they're not connected to it, samurai just won't do anything.
106
00:08:20.889 --> 00:08:28.345
That's great. So I only have one specific problem, and it's a problem that I think isn't really framed correctly, which is
107
00:08:28.805 --> 00:08:33.620
simply what I already stated. I'll try and state it more concisely, which is I don't think it's
108
00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:35.540
better than,
109
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:40.875
the default position where you connect where you leak your XPUB to summarize servers,
110
00:08:41.574 --> 00:08:45.195
by using your own server. I don't think that's better. I think that's required.
111
00:08:45.735 --> 00:08:46.430
That's the difference,
112
00:08:55.085 --> 00:09:02.865
binding where you're leaking your XPub to 3rd parties. I don't think that's legit. I think there are potential use cases for it, and it totally does invalidate
113
00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:21.930
on chain analysis heuristics and things like that. It changes the threat model, but it doesn't do what a lot of people, I think, think it does. So that's why I want to try and spread that awareness even though I'm obviously being stupid and calling people retarded and stuff like that. I think there's actually a serious point behind it. And
114
00:09:22.630 --> 00:09:32.515
what it devolves into when I chat with this stuff is people going absolutely nuts at me for something that I'm unable to abandon because I do genuinely find it to be truthful.
115
00:09:33.055 --> 00:09:35.315
So, yeah, I'll stop there, and let's,
116
00:09:35.935 --> 00:09:37.635
let's let you have a record.
117
00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:39.510
118
00:09:40.370 --> 00:09:41.589
you're saying that
119
00:09:42.290 --> 00:09:43.010
what if,
120
00:09:43.889 --> 00:09:44.870
if you're connecting
121
00:09:45.535 --> 00:09:51.715
to a semi wallet server. Right? So, you know, they're providing all your balances. Right? That's what the x bugs are for.
122
00:09:52.975 --> 00:09:53.475
That
123
00:09:53.850 --> 00:09:54.750
there is no
124
00:09:55.450 --> 00:10:01.470
privacy gained whatsoever. Is that your overall stance because you're not running through your own node?
125
00:10:02.365 --> 00:10:04.625
126
00:10:05.005 --> 00:10:11.585
There can be. It depends on whether you trust the people that you're providing the information to. It might not be. It might be.
127
00:10:12.029 --> 00:10:27.705
To me, it's, the analogy I like to use for it is VPNs. Like, I find samurai in that used in that manner to be like NordVPN or ProtonMail or something like that where you can actually be, in worst case scenario, just using a honeypot.
128
00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:43.415
Because if it's not actually like, a VPN will say we don't keep log, we have to trust them not to keep logs. That's not the same as them not having any data in the first place, which is a far superior model. Like, the basic adage, can't be evil is better than don't be evil. Okay. Well,
129
00:10:43.795 --> 00:10:45.714
130
00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:47.860
in in order to d docs,
131
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.580
any of those ex pubs, right,
132
00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:51.860
1,
133
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.020
you you need some sort of
134
00:10:54.555 --> 00:10:58.495
PII. Right? Some sort of personally identified information. Something that will,
135
00:10:59.035 --> 00:11:01.170
connect you, right, to that
136
00:11:01.570 --> 00:11:02.870
to to that expo.
137
00:11:03.250 --> 00:11:04.470
Right? And
138
00:11:05.010 --> 00:11:14.084
you're talking about post, you know, post spends. You probably need to have some sort of link that actually connects you to your spend and then be able to trace it backwards or,
139
00:11:15.105 --> 00:11:18.005
yeah, like, if they were to tie the x pub that way. But
140
00:11:18.520 --> 00:11:22.860
they there's no sign up. Right? There's no emails. There's no names.
141
00:11:23.560 --> 00:11:28.495
There's no by default, it comes with Tor. Right? So your IP address is hidden.
142
00:11:29.194 --> 00:11:29.694
So
143
00:11:30.634 --> 00:11:34.574
I'm not I'm not entirely sure, like, where that threat model is. Like, where,
144
00:11:35.740 --> 00:11:38.320
if you are in a pinch, you don't have a node.
145
00:11:38.620 --> 00:11:46.685
And this is coming from the guy that wants everyone to run a node, obviously. Right? Like, I would love if every samurai user was a Ronin Dojo user. It'd be fantastic,
146
00:11:47.065 --> 00:11:48.765
but that's that's not
147
00:11:49.209 --> 00:11:57.550
the that's not always the case. Not everyone has the ability to do that. Right? They might they might have the ability to mix some coins that they need mixed, and
148
00:11:58.575 --> 00:12:10.130
there of of course, there's a a trust model and trust trade off whenever when it comes to a light node any light node. Right? Like, any light wallet. Sorry. Any light wallet is gonna require some sort of trust model. Right?
149
00:12:10.510 --> 00:12:15.730
What and the the question is and the reason why Sunrise Wallet is set up this way to have their server
150
00:12:16.074 --> 00:12:18.255
is because they tend to believe that people who
151
00:12:18.875 --> 00:12:19.935
use their software
152
00:12:20.634 --> 00:12:24.495
have some sort of trust in them. If you don't trust Samurais Wallet,
153
00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.140
why would you run their wallet? Like, why would you install their software?
154
00:12:28.520 --> 00:12:39.024
You wouldn't. Right? Like like, some people like like, it to me to me, that that doesn't really make sense. Like, if you're like, oh, they're bad actors, but I'm still gonna use it. Like, that doesn't make sense,
155
00:12:39.725 --> 00:12:41.024
whatsoever. Right?
156
00:12:42.260 --> 00:12:46.200
And if if you're looking for quick, you know, 3rd,
157
00:12:46.900 --> 00:12:49.320
3rd party, you know, like, blockchain,
158
00:12:50.585 --> 00:12:51.085
privacy.
159
00:12:51.545 --> 00:12:52.045
Right?
160
00:12:52.585 --> 00:12:54.765
Samurai Wallet's going to give that to you whether
161
00:12:55.145 --> 00:12:55.645
you're
162
00:12:56.185 --> 00:12:56.685
using,
163
00:12:57.465 --> 00:13:03.630
using the light wallet, right, or if you're connecting it to your node, when it comes down to, let's look at the blockchain,
164
00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:12.235
right, or if you're chain analysis and you're starting from the end or you're starting from the beginning, you're trying to find out whose this is, who's this game from,
165
00:13:12.774 --> 00:13:29.065
then you have that privacy. That privacy is there, and you're not it's not unwinding it. Like, users there are a lot of users who can't just, like, up and run a node at the same time, like, from the start. I would love it if they did, but that's not the reality. It's not the reality of of Bitcoin. Like,
166
00:13:29.605 --> 00:13:35.065
running nodes has gotten way more popular, but we're still not at a point where the vast majority do it. So
167
00:13:35.540 --> 00:13:37.320
a trust trade off is
168
00:13:38.180 --> 00:13:38.680
is
169
00:13:39.140 --> 00:13:43.480
it's going to be there. Right? But it it doesn't make you not private.
170
00:13:43.825 --> 00:13:44.805
Like, it doesn't,
171
00:13:46.945 --> 00:13:54.040
it doesn't take away from the privacy that you gain. Right? You're trusting do you and the question that users have to ask themselves,
172
00:13:54.420 --> 00:13:55.320
do you trust,
173
00:13:56.100 --> 00:14:00.440
Samurai Wallet? If you're a light wallet user, do you trust Samurai Wallet more than you trust Chainalysis
174
00:14:01.300 --> 00:14:11.770
or whatever it is that you're trying to gain? Because if if you trust 1 versus the other, you know, that that should be your trust model. Like, you have to if you if you're not gonna run a node, you need to have some sort of trust,
175
00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:15.230
And Samurai Watch is not to elect for random
176
00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:19.865
nodes that could be surveillance nodes, which we know that are out there. Instead, they chose
177
00:14:20.665 --> 00:14:23.485
to be the one that that bears that burden for their users.
178
00:14:23.945 --> 00:14:32.410
179
00:14:33.350 --> 00:14:53.260
When you're interacting with the Bitcoin network, to interact with the Bitcoin network, you need to use a Bitcoin node. Now that node could either be your own node or it can be someone else's node. If it if you're using someone else's node, you're trusting them with the validation, the verification of the rules of the network, and you're trusting them with some elements of your privacy.
180
00:14:53.945 --> 00:14:55.325
With Samurais specifically,
181
00:14:55.865 --> 00:14:59.485
you're able to use their software wallet, their mobile wallet,
182
00:14:59.785 --> 00:15:02.250
with your own node or with their node.
183
00:15:02.550 --> 00:15:05.130
If you use it with their node, first of all,
184
00:15:06.550 --> 00:15:13.665
a warning message pops up when you first boot up the wallet telling you that there is a trust element involved in trusting their node,
185
00:15:15.085 --> 00:15:21.330
and suggesting that you consider using your own node. And the second thing is you're trusting them with
186
00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:26.210
the the verification of the rules of the network, and you're trusting them with some element of privacy.
187
00:15:26.605 --> 00:15:28.305
Now with Samurais specifically,
188
00:15:29.084 --> 00:15:34.785
it defaults to Tor. So you do not give them your IP address when you are connecting to their node.
189
00:15:35.889 --> 00:15:36.389
But
190
00:15:36.769 --> 00:15:45.335
they are able to if they are acting maliciously, they're able to link the different addresses you have together. So best practice in Bitcoin
191
00:15:45.715 --> 00:15:47.175
is to not reuse addresses.
192
00:15:47.715 --> 00:15:52.215
But in this situation, whosever node you're using is able to then,
193
00:15:52.660 --> 00:15:57.399
in this case, samurai, is able to then link those addresses, balances, and transactions
194
00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:08.125
with each other. Now they obviously do not have a legal name. They do not have an IP address. They just because it goes through Tor, but they're able to link those specific things together.
195
00:16:08.665 --> 00:16:09.165
Now,
196
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.980
yeah. So that that's that's the key setup that we're talking about here,
197
00:16:17.355 --> 00:16:20.175
and now you can carry on, Mechanic, if you'd like to respond.
198
00:16:21.275 --> 00:16:24.475
199
00:16:25.275 --> 00:16:26.175
in any case.
200
00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:37.525
You're just you're asking people if they trust samurai, and I'm saying I don't want people to trust samurai. I want for samurai to be in a position where you don't have to trust them, which
201
00:16:38.145 --> 00:16:49.149
is the ethos of almost everything in Bitcoin. We're talking about trust less money, and I don't wanna be obtuse because these are having privacy in Bitcoin is not the same thing as Bitcoin itself.
202
00:16:50.170 --> 00:16:50.670
But
203
00:16:51.115 --> 00:16:53.295
I don't want to trust someone
204
00:16:53.675 --> 00:16:57.774
that has put themselves in a position where I need to trust them. That is not,
205
00:16:58.315 --> 00:17:01.120
that is not a serious way to go about things. It's
206
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.740
and given that people are going to come to them,
207
00:17:06.080 --> 00:17:06.740
I mean,
208
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.345
I don't wanna be crude, but if someone told you, hey, put this stuff over your skin, it will make you invisible,
209
00:17:12.804 --> 00:17:13.625
and it doesn't,
210
00:17:14.245 --> 00:17:24.140
like, you're doing far more damage to a person. Like, what's the consequences of a person going out who thinks they're invisible when they're not? They're gonna do things that they wouldn't do,
211
00:17:24.845 --> 00:17:28.705
if they knew everyone could see them. Right? So people might take precautions
212
00:17:29.165 --> 00:17:34.400
if they hadn't engaged in any privacy practices at all or any sort of coin joining privacy practices.
213
00:17:35.500 --> 00:17:41.280
People might in people act carefully when they know they're being watched if they have the illusion of privacy,
214
00:17:42.445 --> 00:17:52.270
in which which can have been afforded to them by taking part in a coin joint, that worst case scenario again, I don't wanna cast aspersions here. I'm just saying worst case scenario.
215
00:17:52.650 --> 00:18:10.010
If samurai were bad actors and they were providing a service to people that were looking specifically for privacy because they wanted to do something illicit or, you know, they just wanted to privacy is a human right. We all know that people can do this to for the most, ethical of reasons, to just look after their own privacy.
216
00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:33.475
Supposing you go there, you engage in it, samurai turn out to be bad actors, your identity gets leaked in some way, which you mentioned. You said it's not a problem if identity doesn't get connected with the person somehow, but the fact that that can happen is why we need these practices in the first place. So if you're not worried about identity getting attached to any sort of Bitcoin address, then there's no need for coin joining in the first place.
217
00:18:34.815 --> 00:18:54.080
The fact that there is means, you know, the point of coin joining is, my identity got linked to this Bitcoin address that I withdrew from some Bitcoins I bought from Coinbase. I withdrew them to this address. I now need to break chain analysis that will connect that address and my identity to other future addresses. The point of coin joining is to break that.
218
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.980
If you reattach identity to it at some point, then that's a problem.
219
00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:03.665
But, anyway, I digress. I'm saying my point is that if you,
220
00:19:04.685 --> 00:19:06.385
if your identity becomes known,
221
00:19:06.765 --> 00:19:12.625
the whole point of coin joining is to break that again so chain analysis can't do it. But if you're engaging in that practice,
222
00:19:13.070 --> 00:19:14.130
in the first place,
223
00:19:14.590 --> 00:19:16.130
thinking it's giving you privacy,
224
00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.850
you're you might potentially be doing it through a company that exists
225
00:19:21.895 --> 00:19:24.715
specifically, maybe not even through a fault of their own,
226
00:19:26.215 --> 00:19:26.695
as,
227
00:19:27.015 --> 00:19:36.530
an entity that collects data from people and, you know, I'm I'm down around it, but I'm basically saying the honeypot I got what you're saying. The the honeypot thing. Right? So and, again,
228
00:19:36.895 --> 00:19:39.315
229
00:19:40.095 --> 00:19:52.840
right, so they they would, 1, need to get attacked. Right? And all the x bugs would need to be taken, All of them, not just one, not isolated. It needs to be all of them. Right? And then they need to have something that still connects them to that identity,
230
00:19:53.284 --> 00:19:57.865
like, to that xPub. So it's required. Problem that I need to Can you hear me?
231
00:19:58.725 --> 00:20:04.720
232
00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:11.915
233
00:20:12.955 --> 00:20:17.295
So even even in the case that you're saying, right, they're they need something in addition.
234
00:20:17.595 --> 00:20:24.000
Right? The x pub alone is not going to do anything to link their PII, and that's what I'm saying. Their identity is not connected,
235
00:20:24.540 --> 00:20:30.480
right, because there's nothing that connects it before, and there's nothing that's connecting it. There there's nothing on Samuraiserv
236
00:20:31.215 --> 00:20:34.835
or in dojo because that's what their samurai server is, is dojo.
237
00:20:35.215 --> 00:20:39.635
Right? And, there's nothing I know better in Bitcoin than than dojo.
238
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:43.040
Right? There's nothing in Dojo that can that says, oh,
239
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.000
you know, BTC, XLCO's, XPUB,
240
00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:47.355
like, boom.
241
00:20:47.835 --> 00:20:51.695
There's nothing that connects you from within their server, so there's nothing that can connect
242
00:20:52.075 --> 00:20:52.575
afterwards.
243
00:20:53.035 --> 00:21:01.410
Right? And there's nothing that can connect their identity. When you're talking about identity in in particular, now spending behaviors, whatever. Sure. But if they they need to have that other information,
244
00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:05.655
they need to have who that what that other addresses do. Private practices
245
00:21:06.034 --> 00:21:33.340
246
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:44.054
problem. Like, that's not you don't have to do that. I mean, hats off So the fact you don't have to So the argument is that someone's going to hack samurai server, a privacy server, the threat model.
247
00:21:44.434 --> 00:22:02.065
248
00:22:02.445 --> 00:22:02.945
just,
249
00:22:03.725 --> 00:22:14.260
attack all these users. Because what it really what it really comes down to is that law enforcement, chain analysis, any of these companies, right, they don't have expos. They don't have that information. Right?
250
00:22:14.905 --> 00:22:17.625
The the users that are using it, like, wallet How do you
251
00:22:18.345 --> 00:22:22.280
252
00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:46.380
253
00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:47.260
Right?
254
00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.664
255
00:22:52.044 --> 00:22:58.784
rather than the fact that there's pressure on them to do that, and they've just bent the price down the road? Said that they were not pressured to add in blacklisting.
256
00:23:02.909 --> 00:23:05.570
Like, you could go on a whole thing about what's stopping, but Right.
257
00:23:06.575 --> 00:23:13.395
We can conclude that law enforcement are definitely paying attention to things like CoinJoin. Right? They're not just letting it go past without any interest.
258
00:23:13.910 --> 00:23:17.190
259
00:23:17.830 --> 00:23:22.570
look. I I think you both agree that obviously using your own note is preferable here.
260
00:23:22.894 --> 00:23:26.835
But the the real the real threat model with the light client mode
261
00:23:27.215 --> 00:23:29.154
is you're not just trusting samurai
262
00:23:30.029 --> 00:23:35.169
to not be malicious. You're trusting them to be able to keep their server secure. So if their server gets compromised,
263
00:23:36.029 --> 00:23:37.970
and we already know that maybe
264
00:23:38.514 --> 00:23:50.889
90% over 90% of new users who come into Bitcoin are coming in via KY Seed Services, where they're uploading their passport, giving their Social Security number, taking selfies, putting their mailing address and stuff. If the server gets compromised
265
00:23:51.269 --> 00:23:53.289
by some government affiliated agency
266
00:23:53.669 --> 00:23:54.809
and then gets coupled
267
00:23:55.495 --> 00:23:56.795
with KYC information,
268
00:23:57.575 --> 00:23:59.035
then that entity
269
00:23:59.895 --> 00:24:02.715
can go and unwind the collaborative transactions.
270
00:24:03.015 --> 00:24:03.515
CoinJoin
271
00:24:04.820 --> 00:24:11.375
can unwind those transactions because they have full sight into the rounds. Do we both agree on that? Mhmm.
272
00:24:13.115 --> 00:24:21.150
273
00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:22.670
274
00:24:23.050 --> 00:24:33.825
275
00:24:35.405 --> 00:24:43.250
276
00:24:43.789 --> 00:24:44.110
which is
277
00:24:45.105 --> 00:24:51.125
the whole point of it is to obscure the blockchain. Right? Obscure transaction blockchain or a collaborative transaction.
278
00:24:51.665 --> 00:24:54.165
And by you trying to make an assertion that
279
00:24:55.080 --> 00:24:56.460
if you're not,
280
00:24:56.760 --> 00:24:58.139
that you have no privacy,
281
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:03.340
that's saying that it you don't even get any sort of gain, which you do. You get immediate gain,
282
00:25:03.705 --> 00:25:09.885
right, from having this transaction because the only way the own and only in this fairy tale situation
283
00:25:10.345 --> 00:25:12.924
is that if they get compromised. And if they get compromised,
284
00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:26.285
you could easily move those funds to a brand new wallet that's backed by a node and then mix them again. You can do all of those things if you're really that concerned. But, honestly, like, the the threat model the threat model the current the current threat model
285
00:25:26.745 --> 00:25:28.045
is against chain analysis,
286
00:25:28.425 --> 00:25:30.685
right, and against people just looking at the blockchain.
287
00:25:31.710 --> 00:25:32.210
Does
288
00:25:32.830 --> 00:25:38.690
does does does does Whirlpool give you that this is what I need to know. Hold on. I need to know that. Does Whirlpool solution.
289
00:25:39.070 --> 00:25:40.770
Does Whirlpool give you
290
00:25:42.005 --> 00:25:43.225
transactional privacy,
291
00:25:43.685 --> 00:25:44.905
right, on the blockchain?
292
00:25:48.165 --> 00:25:54.970
293
00:25:55.350 --> 00:26:01.125
if best practices are observed by everyone involved, and it's something like join market where there's,
294
00:26:01.505 --> 00:26:12.400
you know, where we have a superior approach in almost every way. Just saying, oh, I'm not a wasabi, and much preferred coin market. I'm saying if other people engaged in the coin joint don't observe proper practices
295
00:26:12.940 --> 00:26:29.260
and link UTXOs again, that ruins your privacy too. So there's no such it's a very approximate way to get privacy into a system that's public by design. Privacy is a huge issue in Bitcoin. It's really difficult to see how know why join market's privacy doesn't if someone has really poor practices,
296
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.860
297
00:26:35.365 --> 00:26:36.985
Right? Like, you're not doing
298
00:26:37.285 --> 00:26:42.585
you're not having 5 people, and, like, yes, one of those 5 people could screw up, and then everyone else is still remixing.
299
00:26:42.965 --> 00:26:46.980
We have far more liquidity and Whirlpool than we do in joint market.
300
00:26:47.280 --> 00:27:02.210
So as those numbers go up, you're just hiding in a in a a far bigger mix. Right? People are mixing the cold storage and leaving it there. It's just continuously getting gaining privacy because people don't know who those transactions are, like, who those UTXOs are from. Right? So your your theory that,
301
00:27:03.169 --> 00:27:03.669
that
302
00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:07.990
you're gonna get better coin joints from joint market, that's also very silly.
303
00:27:08.769 --> 00:27:10.710
And one person could ruin that versus
304
00:27:11.015 --> 00:27:11.835
one individual
305
00:27:12.695 --> 00:27:15.755
practicing bad habits, which are preached and and explained
306
00:27:16.215 --> 00:27:34.255
thoroughly multiple times by hundreds of people in, in the samurai community. Right? And, like, we don't do the spend all. There's so many, like, red flag or pop ups that happen when you try to hurt do something that would harm your privacy in the samurai wallet because they know that at the end of the day, some users are gonna do something stupid.
307
00:27:34.555 --> 00:27:35.375
Right? But
308
00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:40.140
it's not going to ruin everything for everybody. Right? It's not going to unwind everything.
309
00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:42.460
Right? You still have far more,
310
00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:54.509
privacy, and that this is a totally different topic, but you're getting more privacy from from that than you are in join market. But the the It's pro Like, that's that's, like, laughable to me. But the private it's coin join. It doesn't
311
00:27:54.809 --> 00:28:09.005
312
00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:22.174
and you'd be more pessimistic as you like, or you engage in more rounds afterwards, and you go, okay. I feel pretty private now. But this is the whole thing. It's all very approximate, which is why you don't wanna shoot yourself in the foot by using something that's designed
313
00:28:22.715 --> 00:28:37.475
314
00:28:37.855 --> 00:28:39.875
So Samurai Wallet's been around since before,
315
00:28:41.055 --> 00:28:41.555
the
316
00:28:42.735 --> 00:28:46.900
the user activated software. Right? So that was why.
317
00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:53.460
And they allowed a trusted note option where you could connect to connect to your your note or or whatnot. But,
318
00:28:54.595 --> 00:28:56.695
sorry. I didn't mean to keep clicking my pen, Matt.
319
00:28:57.955 --> 00:29:03.255
But the whole I told Zalco to stop clicking my pen. He did. I I've been clicking my pen. I'm sorry.
320
00:29:04.770 --> 00:29:16.185
But the whole point was that people were running people were running light wallets. So they came from a time period, which I know is hard for everyone to to understand now that we have, you know, everyone. There there's
321
00:29:16.725 --> 00:29:17.705
too many node
322
00:29:18.245 --> 00:29:19.625
node projects now,
323
00:29:20.005 --> 00:29:23.865
for people to think about not running a node. But, like, there was a time
324
00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:24.970
when
325
00:29:25.590 --> 00:29:29.610
the majority of users didn't run their own node. It just wasn't a thing. Right? So
326
00:29:29.990 --> 00:29:33.050
they said instead of using a an an Electrum
327
00:29:33.525 --> 00:29:34.985
style setup where,
328
00:29:35.525 --> 00:29:37.625
you're gonna be connecting to a random node
329
00:29:38.005 --> 00:29:41.145
to fetch your balances, why would you give away that information?
330
00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:49.625
At least, at a minimum, you can trust us because you're already using our software. That's why that that model is there. It's not because of, like, some other thing. It's the fact that
331
00:29:50.105 --> 00:29:50.765
most users
332
00:29:51.225 --> 00:29:53.965
understand that trade off. Most users who are using LightWallet
333
00:29:54.265 --> 00:30:12.415
are either starting out like that because they don't have a node. Right? And they're okay. They wanna try to they wanna see what's going on, and then a majority of them switch over to a full node. Right? But the idea is that if you take away something that gives them that immediate privacy because there has not been a leak, there hasn't been a hack, you're still going to be able to to transact privately,
334
00:30:12.715 --> 00:30:13.215
right,
335
00:30:13.530 --> 00:30:15.230
detaching away from that initial
336
00:30:15.530 --> 00:30:17.790
whether it was KYC or that initial transaction.
337
00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:20.270
Whatever the previous history was is gone.
338
00:30:20.625 --> 00:30:24.965
Right? Like, you you actually have that unlike in in other coin join attempts.
339
00:30:25.265 --> 00:30:40.715
Right? You actually get that deterministic links are actually broken in Whirlpool. So moving forward, they have that privacy. They can do what they want. Right? They could they harm themselves? It's very difficult, but could they? Sure. But at the end of the day, you're talking about in this in this
340
00:30:41.095 --> 00:30:41.835
fairy tale
341
00:30:42.294 --> 00:30:42.794
situation
342
00:30:43.415 --> 00:30:50.440
where samurai gets hacked and everything is is to shit. If that does happen, it's bad for everybody. Like, it is bad for Bitcoin
343
00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:54.440
if that happened and everyone who was a light wallet user
344
00:30:54.935 --> 00:31:03.115
with the with the I chose a pet. But they're not well, why would you change it now and force all users to run an a node in order to use their mobile wallet?
345
00:31:03.510 --> 00:31:08.730
Forcing Well, you don't have forcing users to do that is not is not something that, one, they need to do.
346
00:31:09.030 --> 00:31:14.065
Right? Because most users wanna transact, like, at the highest privacy level that they can.
347
00:31:14.445 --> 00:31:21.080
348
00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:29.565
You don't need to. You can just use block filters, which as you point out weren't available back when Samura's original design was done. Bit 157 and 158
349
00:31:30.105 --> 00:31:45.685
solve the problem of having nodes that you have to pull data from and consequently ruining your own privacy. Block filters get rid of the full set of people to provide you the block filters. So what's your like, there's not it doesn't it doesn't fit in yet. You're trusting them with the fleet of the network, but you're not trusting them
350
00:31:46.165 --> 00:31:47.225
with, keeping,
351
00:31:47.605 --> 00:31:51.705
not keeping logs of what it is you're requesting because they don't know what it is you're requesting
352
00:31:52.085 --> 00:31:53.065
because it's probabilistic.
353
00:31:53.610 --> 00:32:25.525
They have to make so many assumptions. You're pulling a whole bunch of data, and you're obfuscating the specific requirements. It's not like, here's my XPub. Tell me the exact history of this on the blockchain. It's, here. I need a 10,000 bits of data. One of them is interesting to me, and you've got no heuristic for figuring out which one it is. Block filters are really good. They're much better than bloom filters, but they're newer. This is what this is a good design, and you can switch to that if it's really important, which it is, to make sure people without nodes can still engage in coin joining. Switch to block filters. Does block does block filters work for,
354
00:32:27.025 --> 00:32:31.205
355
00:32:32.029 --> 00:32:35.090
So block filters are what Wasabi uses.
356
00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:40.190
Block filters, you have a trust trade off in terms of you
357
00:32:40.955 --> 00:32:42.015
you're you're trusting
358
00:32:42.715 --> 00:32:49.215
the provider of the block filters to actually notify you if your transactions came in, but you're not trusting them with your privacy.
359
00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:52.790
Now my basic understanding of the situation
360
00:32:53.730 --> 00:32:58.150
is that block filters are too heavy to currently implement on mobile.
361
00:32:58.929 --> 00:33:00.455
I even Nopara,
362
00:33:01.715 --> 00:33:04.855
lead dev and founder of Wasabi, has agreed with that.
363
00:33:05.315 --> 00:33:07.414
You know, Wasabi uses a desktop.
364
00:33:08.115 --> 00:33:08.615
So
365
00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:12.040
I to me, the crux of this debate
366
00:33:12.419 --> 00:33:14.600
comes down to the fact of,
367
00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:17.640
should people that only have a mobile phone,
368
00:33:18.275 --> 00:33:21.255
that do not have the ability to use their own node,
369
00:33:22.115 --> 00:33:25.415
do not have the ability to use a desktop computer in general,
370
00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:27.160
are those people
371
00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:31.020
should those people get some kind of privacy gain
372
00:33:31.560 --> 00:33:35.660
on the ledger even if it requires trusting an entity such as samurai?
373
00:33:36.445 --> 00:33:44.784
And if you use join market if you use join market, that doesn't solve that issue. It doesn't solve the issue for people that only have mobile phones.
374
00:33:45.679 --> 00:33:52.419
375
00:33:52.774 --> 00:33:56.635
depending on whether samurai are not only trustworthy, but also
376
00:33:57.255 --> 00:34:07.970
just completely competent, which they can have the best intentions in the world, but accidents happen. We we need the data not to exist in the first place. The minute it does, it's it's a problem. This is like
377
00:34:08.785 --> 00:34:11.445
378
00:34:11.905 --> 00:34:13.865
Like, it's not the it's not the realistic
379
00:34:14.305 --> 00:34:15.285
380
00:34:15.825 --> 00:34:21.030
let's bring this let's bring this to a scenario let's bring this to, like, a a real world scenario,
381
00:34:22.450 --> 00:34:23.510
because I'm curious.
382
00:34:24.050 --> 00:34:25.910
I'm curious of mechanic's opinion.
383
00:34:26.575 --> 00:34:29.955
So if if you're if you're if you're an activist
384
00:34:30.655 --> 00:34:31.395
in Venezuela
385
00:34:31.695 --> 00:34:32.994
and you're receiving donations
386
00:34:33.750 --> 00:34:36.170
in Venezuela, and you're concerned about
387
00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:38.170
the Venezuelan regime
388
00:34:38.790 --> 00:34:40.250
tracking you on chain
389
00:34:40.765 --> 00:34:41.984
when you're using Bitcoin.
390
00:34:42.765 --> 00:34:43.265
Does
391
00:34:43.965 --> 00:34:44.465
Samurais
392
00:34:44.845 --> 00:34:46.145
light client offering
393
00:34:46.845 --> 00:34:48.705
provide a benefit to those users?
394
00:34:50.310 --> 00:34:50.810
395
00:34:51.910 --> 00:34:56.150
And also it could be harming those users as well, like, seriously badly. And,
396
00:34:56.605 --> 00:35:02.944
given the analogy I made earlier, which is if you think you're naked and you're stealing stuff from a supermarket and everyone can see what you're doing,
397
00:35:03.244 --> 00:35:06.385
that's awful in comparison to you knowing people can see you.
398
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:17.335
399
00:35:17.875 --> 00:35:19.015
does do you still
400
00:35:19.395 --> 00:35:28.330
do you still feel that way if the wallet is telling you that you're trusting Samurais server on boot up and explains the trade off to you?
401
00:35:30.605 --> 00:35:33.724
402
00:35:34.125 --> 00:35:38.224
Even with full awareness of the fact that you have to trust Sunrise Server,
403
00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:57.185
it's still I would still criticize the design of it and the fact that it's possible in the first place, but obviously that's my preference that they would warn you and make you as, like, I think people should be able to use VPNs. Right? I think people should be able to use samurai in this way. My critique is mainly that it's never characterized.
404
00:35:57.819 --> 00:35:58.720
It's a different
405
00:35:59.099 --> 00:36:04.880
kettle of fish altogether. Using your own samurai with your own node is a different model than using,
406
00:36:05.339 --> 00:36:11.155
their server. It's not an simply an improvement to use your own node. It's a different set of issues.
407
00:36:11.535 --> 00:36:15.875
Like, my analogy for it is, like, you wanna access a website,
408
00:36:16.390 --> 00:36:31.015
like some streaming service at hulu.com or something, and it only lets Americans use it. So you use a VPN and you go you hop on an American IP address, and then you can watch TV. Hooray. But that's not like, a guy in Iran or something trying to,
409
00:36:31.635 --> 00:36:33.255
gain privacy from an adversarial
410
00:36:33.555 --> 00:36:39.360
government. Right? They're gonna use the Tor network. They're not gonna use a VPN. Why? Because a VPN is potentially just a honeypot
411
00:36:40.140 --> 00:36:46.625
and could be worse than if you just used your raw IP address. So this, to bring it back to samurai, to me feels like
412
00:36:47.085 --> 00:36:55.820
if you want to deposit some coins in some, you know, putrid institution like BlockFi that will censor stuff that comes from certain places.
413
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.980
What you would do if you have a blacklisted UTXO
414
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:01.500
is you can use samurai,
415
00:37:02.075 --> 00:37:24.105
without a node. Right? Because you can break the link between them, and then the service has no idea that you're coming from a blacklisted UTXO. It's good for that because they're not really bothered about doing a proper investigation, just like Hulu aren't bothered with confirming that you're really in America or not. They're not gonna go to that length. But Hulu is a very different threat model from NSA or government agencies in general. They're different things.
416
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:28.920
Sorry. I went a bit on track there.
417
00:37:30.740 --> 00:37:39.435
418
00:37:40.455 --> 00:37:47.920
Yeah. I I do like it. I just don't think that it's frank. My my, like, issue is they keep framing. It's it's the wrong framing when you're saying,
419
00:37:48.675 --> 00:37:50.215
people would run into a,
420
00:37:51.635 --> 00:37:57.095
like, if you're if you were told that you're naked in a supermarket or that you can run naked in a supermarket because you're invisible.
421
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.380
That's that's seriously absurd.
422
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:32.599
Because, 1, like, on top of that so all the warnings, right, you're like, okay. Well, one person can see me if they were, like, naked in a supermarket when they wear these special goggles because they can they're the only ones that can see me run naked. Right? So they're the only ones that can see me invisible rather because that's that was your thing. So only one person can see me invisible. Right? But if they share those goggles with someone else, then another person could see that I was doing it. Right? Not everyone's going to see that I was doing that, but only the people that have the goggles. That's the that would be a better framing of your analogy
423
00:38:33.060 --> 00:38:40.955
and you saying that, like, you're gonna do some, like, crazy thing because you think that ever no one can see you. But, really, you know that one person can see you. Right?
424
00:38:41.975 --> 00:38:50.160
So to me, if you're gonna frame that argument I I just I still don't understand why we were talking about someone Sure. Run around naked. Not really my thing, but, like,
425
00:38:51.099 --> 00:38:53.180
you brought up something that I will touch on.
426
00:38:53.900 --> 00:38:57.115
You said it's a different model, samurai server versus
427
00:38:57.415 --> 00:38:58.555
running our own node.
428
00:38:59.415 --> 00:39:03.355
How how is that the case? Like, if I pulled up 2 transact 2 Whirlpool transactions,
429
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:06.000
Right? One that had
430
00:39:06.620 --> 00:39:14.065
a you know, maybe I know that there's a maybe I ran a light wallet, and I I mixed it. Right? And then another one was a,
431
00:39:14.925 --> 00:39:17.345
you know, another mix that I ran from my dojo.
432
00:39:18.285 --> 00:39:28.110
Are you gonna be able to tell the difference? If you look at if I just gave you a transaction ID, would you be able to tell me that this is samurai wall this is the samurai server 1 and this is the dojo 1?
433
00:39:30.095 --> 00:39:46.865
No. But that's not my issue. But that but that's what you're saying, though. You're saying they're 2 different models, and they're not. Like, you're saying that you don't gain these privacies that people would transaction transact differently, and then you're also forgetting a totally different threat model that a bunch of people in the chat have actually brought up, and I can't see them anymore
434
00:39:47.165 --> 00:39:53.185
to to read them word for word. But, you know, running a full node on like, all the time versus a,
435
00:39:53.565 --> 00:39:55.585
using a light wallet in someone else's server,
436
00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:03.420
Right? That also like, having all of that data pulling all the time, right, is going to be a trigger to to
437
00:40:04.025 --> 00:40:04.525
outside
438
00:40:05.145 --> 00:40:06.125
observers, right, versus
439
00:40:06.585 --> 00:40:11.885
if you're using that light wallet. In some countries, it's more of a risk to run the node than it is to use a light wallet.
440
00:40:13.070 --> 00:40:17.150
So, like, you know, this this idea that you have that, like, everyone needs to have
441
00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:20.610
like, I would love it if everyone ran a node, but that's that's,
442
00:40:21.065 --> 00:40:25.405
one, it's not realistic to the world scenario that certain people live in.
443
00:40:25.785 --> 00:40:26.525
And 2,
444
00:40:27.225 --> 00:40:34.110
when you take that and you extrapolate to also block filters and people in shitty countries that are I guess, it's not a shitty country if you live there. I'm sorry.
445
00:40:34.730 --> 00:40:38.235
But in these underdeveloped countries, and you are trying to
446
00:40:38.635 --> 00:40:40.575
download block fill like, bloom filters
447
00:40:41.275 --> 00:40:46.895
to pull all of your information, which takes forever anyways, then on top of that, you have the these incredibly
448
00:40:47.195 --> 00:40:48.015
deep wallets,
449
00:40:48.460 --> 00:40:49.680
you know, 10,010,000
450
00:40:50.619 --> 00:40:51.119
plus,
451
00:40:52.460 --> 00:40:53.200
deep wallets.
452
00:40:53.500 --> 00:40:55.599
Like, I have one that's new, and it's at 10,000.
453
00:40:56.060 --> 00:40:56.560
So
454
00:40:57.825 --> 00:40:58.805
10,000 plus,
455
00:40:59.505 --> 00:41:10.350
UTXOs, and I have to wait for the bloom the bloom filters to come through. And it doesn't work for all the different address types. Well, I'm sorry. Like, that's that's silly. Like, I don't know why that's even mentioned.
456
00:41:11.530 --> 00:41:19.135
But, yeah, it's not 2 different models because they literally provide the same exact transaction. And no one using it, no one no third party
457
00:41:19.435 --> 00:41:20.255
can sit
458
00:41:20.635 --> 00:41:25.454
and look at the blockchain and tell me and because that's what this is about. It's about, do you get blockchain,
459
00:41:26.510 --> 00:41:29.010
transactional privacy? You do. Right?
460
00:41:29.310 --> 00:41:34.035
If you somehow if somehow you were using Samwise server and your shit got like,
461
00:41:34.914 --> 00:41:45.779
their server got hacked, like, then you should take the appropriate steps, which should basically should be moving your funds if you didn't already spend them. Move your funds. Yeah. Right to the index club, right, and back at Vidyoja.
462
00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:47.059
But, like,
463
00:41:47.359 --> 00:41:48.980
everything else right?
464
00:41:49.680 --> 00:42:00.215
465
00:42:00.835 --> 00:42:01.335
466
00:42:02.900 --> 00:42:04.200
467
00:42:05.060 --> 00:42:06.120
468
00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:08.520
like, I had that much trust in them
469
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:10.920
just like you guys would disclose
470
00:42:11.515 --> 00:42:18.654
anything, like, similar to that as well. Right? Like, people buying stuff. I mean, we both we both are in companies that sell nodes.
471
00:42:19.194 --> 00:42:21.135
If if our server got hacked,
472
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:25.940
would you not do the moral obligation? Wouldn't you have a moral obligation to tell your users. Correct?
473
00:42:26.720 --> 00:42:27.280
Like, that's
474
00:42:27.839 --> 00:42:32.585
of course, I'm going to trust them. If they didn't if they didn't, then then, yeah, that's on me.
475
00:42:32.885 --> 00:42:33.625
Right? Like,
476
00:42:34.245 --> 00:42:39.545
if it like, I made I took that chance. I took I accepted that that risk
477
00:42:40.200 --> 00:42:41.819
of using a light wallet.
478
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:50.445
They I mean, like, not to mention that they're one of the few I'm not commission. They don't have a few, like Right. Developers that has a canary.
479
00:42:51.065 --> 00:42:55.965
Right? So if that canary is not updated, then I know that that they've been compromised.
480
00:42:56.425 --> 00:43:04.690
481
00:43:04.990 --> 00:43:06.369
the FBI to go,
482
00:43:06.685 --> 00:43:14.305
hey. And by the way, you can't tell anyone that we've approached you. And you go, uh-uh. We've got a warrant canary. We're gonna take it down. And they go, dagnabbit.
483
00:43:15.109 --> 00:43:16.250
You got us again.
484
00:43:16.630 --> 00:43:19.930
485
00:43:21.190 --> 00:43:24.145
486
00:43:25.645 --> 00:43:32.830
Yes. I no. I know how Warren Canaries don't work. They are security theater. Okay. But how do they work? How are they supposed to work?
487
00:43:34.330 --> 00:43:38.830
In theory, they're supposed to get around the fact that you can't disclose that you've been approached by law enforcement,
488
00:43:39.145 --> 00:43:50.089
but you can remove something that says you've never been approached, and that gets you around the fact that you're not actually telling people something. You're removing a statement, which is not in and of itself speech. So
489
00:43:50.630 --> 00:43:52.890
490
00:43:53.910 --> 00:43:59.545
No. Isn't the way warrant canary is The warrant canaries would work is that I if I got approached, I wouldn't re I wouldn't renew
491
00:44:00.165 --> 00:44:02.325
my Warren Canary. Yeah. So in my Warren Canaries
492
00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:05.065
493
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:12.860
494
00:44:13.315 --> 00:44:22.135
I think their wording was anything that isn't Bitcoin, we've been hacked. Then they implemented Monero. Implement Monero. And they ordered. But they didn't implement Monero 1,
495
00:44:22.570 --> 00:44:39.185
496
00:44:39.930 --> 00:44:42.830
when they're saying that, they they actually mean putting
497
00:44:43.210 --> 00:44:44.830
a a an alternate
498
00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:45.710
coin
499
00:44:46.089 --> 00:44:47.070
into the wallet.
500
00:44:47.395 --> 00:44:50.055
Sure. Right? Okay. Let's go look at their warrant canary
501
00:44:50.355 --> 00:44:54.440
and understand what they're actually saying. And warrant canaries work by saying that you're not going to
502
00:44:54.839 --> 00:44:57.099
reinstate or renew that warrant canary
503
00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:03.180
after you've been approached. And there's not that's not a, hey. I have to go and tell everybody. That's just a silent
504
00:45:03.555 --> 00:45:10.055
means. Right? Weren't a canary in the coal mine. It is a way to disclose to the community and all the users
505
00:45:10.835 --> 00:45:13.015
we've been compromised or something happened,
506
00:45:13.540 --> 00:45:20.120
right, and we didn't update it. Okay. But Because they can take your social media. They can take everything else, but they can't force you to renew,
507
00:45:20.580 --> 00:45:21.080
right,
508
00:45:21.925 --> 00:45:27.945
509
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:29.260
that
510
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.099
you have to trust samurai
511
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:35.820
to under to know that there's a breach and to disclose that there's a breach.
512
00:45:36.845 --> 00:45:40.305
Mhmm. I think both of you guys agree on that statement. Correct?
513
00:45:41.085 --> 00:45:45.350
Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Whether that's through a Warren Canary or through a Telegram message out to a trusted
514
00:45:54.915 --> 00:45:58.855
515
00:45:59.395 --> 00:46:00.615
This comes down to people,
516
00:46:01.875 --> 00:46:02.375
needing
517
00:46:02.675 --> 00:46:03.735
they need a,
518
00:46:05.140 --> 00:46:06.599
they they need the privacy
519
00:46:07.220 --> 00:46:12.280
from, you know, from their government or from what whoever else, right, from law enforcement, and
520
00:46:12.805 --> 00:46:17.145
they're willing to accept that. And I know that because I've, like, specifically talked
521
00:46:17.445 --> 00:46:18.745
to tons of people,
522
00:46:19.205 --> 00:46:20.505
right, from other countries
523
00:46:20.805 --> 00:46:22.585
that don't that that
524
00:46:23.990 --> 00:46:28.490
do not trust their government with anything. I mean, most people don't trust their government. They're Bitcoiners now, but,
525
00:46:29.030 --> 00:46:36.955
they specifically they fear the government more, right, than this, you know, crazy weird threat model. K? So,
526
00:46:38.215 --> 00:46:42.235
like, people in South America don't give 2 shits about it, and it costs more,
527
00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:45.330
and it's more obvious that they're doing something nefarious,
528
00:46:45.790 --> 00:46:47.410
right, or suspicious rather,
529
00:46:47.950 --> 00:46:53.665
if they are have this huge influx of data being pulled at their house because they're running a node.
530
00:46:53.965 --> 00:46:59.790
Right? They're downloading the blockchain like that. Those are things that they worry that their government will be more keen to
531
00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:03.690
than using some mobile wallet, right, in a light light wallet mode.
532
00:47:05.370 --> 00:47:22.810
So, like, when we talk about that and and even, like, you know, you can you can extrapolate to anybody that's, like, you know, an uncle Jim. It that's a threat model. I don't care. Like, you we can say whatever we want. Uncle Jim's great, but is it a threat model? Sure. If we're gonna play play the game, then play it all the way out. You know? Like,
533
00:47:23.175 --> 00:47:25.915
every like, your your idea is that,
534
00:47:27.974 --> 00:47:35.319
is that everyone like, every wallet should be ran by your own node only. Because if you're not saying that, then every other wallet is is also fucked.
535
00:47:36.180 --> 00:47:44.944
536
00:47:46.125 --> 00:47:47.025
537
00:47:48.365 --> 00:47:54.529
538
00:47:54.910 --> 00:48:00.845
539
00:48:01.704 --> 00:48:05.404
that's the coordinator, the blinded coordinator that's creating the transaction.
540
00:48:06.030 --> 00:48:10.690
Right? So and you you can tell that this happens in your Samura wallet. Right?
541
00:48:11.070 --> 00:48:22.035
Because after your your mix right? Before you mix, you have an IP address. After the mix, you it says you have a new Tor sorry. You have a Tor identity. And after that, you get a new fresh Tor identity after the mix. So
542
00:48:23.010 --> 00:48:28.450
what you're saying is that that tour or that coordinator is a LARP because it has
543
00:48:30.145 --> 00:48:33.205
it might have a user in that 5 person mix
544
00:48:33.745 --> 00:48:34.245
that
545
00:48:34.705 --> 00:48:38.085
is using a light wallet. That's that's the stance that you're taking?
546
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:42.160
No. Not necessarily. So you're just saying you're just
547
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:54.075
548
00:48:54.535 --> 00:48:57.110
with your ex pub in the first place, you're
549
00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:00.150
you're obscuring something,
550
00:49:00.450 --> 00:49:03.990
and you're revealing it at the same time, which is stupid.
551
00:49:05.385 --> 00:49:10.045
Why bother obscuring it if you're going to reveal it? Not every user is a light wall user.
552
00:49:11.464 --> 00:49:16.080
553
00:49:16.700 --> 00:49:19.440
Right? Anyone that's that is partaking in the mix
554
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.040
has to get blinded.
555
00:49:21.435 --> 00:49:34.060
I guess they don't have to. Right? They could just choose to not have a blind coordinator. They could just have a a clear and obvious coordinator, but they clearly don't do that. Right? Because that wouldn't Oh, they're blinded from each other. It's blinded from them
556
00:49:34.520 --> 00:49:37.820
and from everyone. The only time that they don't that that doesn't
557
00:49:38.135 --> 00:49:46.555
correlate over, that that what my statement isn't true is for this case for the light wall because they see that the UTXO after. Right? But
558
00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:49.900
what you're what you're saying, right, is that
559
00:49:50.279 --> 00:49:59.175
why why do the the blind transact it's because not every wallet in there. They're not picking people. They're not saying, like, oh, this is gonna be a all light wallet,
560
00:50:00.435 --> 00:50:02.295
a samurai server mix.
561
00:50:02.710 --> 00:50:07.289
562
00:50:07.589 --> 00:50:10.545
they told me an element becomes something they just can't rely on.
563
00:50:12.224 --> 00:50:17.560
564
00:50:18.120 --> 00:50:19.500
that the blind coordinator
565
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:21.340
doesn't matter to these people?
566
00:50:22.600 --> 00:50:23.980
It doesn't matter to anyone?
567
00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:26.700
Like, I I don't think I don't understand because
568
00:50:27.345 --> 00:50:46.530
like, well, it uses mixed with Dojo users. So I don't understand your point. For the people that are using Dojo and Sparrow and all that because they are mixing with people that aren't really mixing or at least aren't getting proper privacy from their mixes. How do they not? See that you keep saying they're not getting proper this is where I I, like, get frustrated because you keep saying a proper
569
00:50:47.475 --> 00:50:50.055
proper privacy from the mix. They are.
570
00:50:50.355 --> 00:50:57.700
They are. Until the day until like, you can come back later and tell me later on, like, I told you so because SamRack gets hacked. But until that happens,
571
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:02.020
you gotta tell me how on the blockchain, how these people do not get privacy
572
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:06.180
from going through Whirlpool, whether they're on LightWallet or Dojo.
573
00:51:06.625 --> 00:51:13.605
Right? They or Sparrow or whoever. They're all they're all mixing together. It's one liquidity pool. I don't understand why, guys I don't understand
574
00:51:14.065 --> 00:51:14.565
how
575
00:51:14.869 --> 00:51:35.510
in the immediate moment right now, there's never been a hack. Right? There's never been a hack. There's never been anyone arrested using Samura Wallet. There's never been anyone, like, taken down because they use trace through samurai wallet. So I need to know how this is an immediate threat model and that these people are right now losing privacy. They're not getting privacy when they're going through Whirlpool
576
00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:38.070
as a light wallet user because
577
00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:39.590
everything else
578
00:51:40.050 --> 00:51:53.260
that that if I look at any sort of Whirlpool transaction, I can't fucking tell if it's if it's a LightWallet or if it's a Dojo user. So I need to know how they are losing right now. Like, not not in the fairy tale situation.
579
00:51:53.560 --> 00:51:55.500
Right now, how are they losing privacy?
580
00:51:55.825 --> 00:51:57.925
Because that's the statement that I have an issue with.
581
00:51:59.025 --> 00:52:03.160
582
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:08.859
583
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:13.615
Why else why else would you hack a privacy wallet server?
584
00:52:14.555 --> 00:52:16.415
585
00:52:16.875 --> 00:52:18.735
stay inside criminal organizations
586
00:52:19.115 --> 00:52:26.280
587
00:52:26.580 --> 00:52:27.700
like, you really think that
588
00:52:28.555 --> 00:52:35.214
I mean, like, I gotta say, if you if you think that Samwise Wallet I mean, basically, what you're saying now is that Samwise Fed,
589
00:52:36.210 --> 00:52:39.110
That they're comp that you think that they're potentially compromised
590
00:52:39.970 --> 00:52:45.190
and that they would just continue to develop and operate as status quo. Right?
591
00:52:45.795 --> 00:52:48.595
I yeah. But then Guys, I think That's we've already
592
00:52:49.555 --> 00:52:53.255
593
00:52:53.795 --> 00:52:54.295
that
594
00:52:55.279 --> 00:52:56.980
that you have to trust samurai
595
00:52:57.359 --> 00:53:00.180
to know that they're compromised and to admit that they're compromised.
596
00:53:01.359 --> 00:53:05.765
We we this is part of the trust model. I thought we've all agreed on this already.
597
00:53:06.705 --> 00:53:08.405
598
00:53:08.865 --> 00:53:09.365
599
00:53:09.745 --> 00:53:13.310
I wanna I wanna bring it back to another real world scenario
600
00:53:14.170 --> 00:53:14.990
for a mechanic,
601
00:53:17.130 --> 00:53:18.350
and then we can continue.
602
00:53:19.130 --> 00:53:20.590
So you're you're
603
00:53:21.285 --> 00:53:23.305
you're an employee in Spain,
604
00:53:23.925 --> 00:53:32.170
and you're getting paid by your boss. You only have a mobile phone. You receive your payment to Samurais. You don't use your own node. You use Whirlpool
605
00:53:32.790 --> 00:53:33.930
collaborative transactions
606
00:53:34.630 --> 00:53:37.450
so that your boss doesn't know your spending habits.
607
00:53:37.829 --> 00:53:39.050
Is that an improvement
608
00:53:39.555 --> 00:53:42.375
over not having samurai like client mode?
609
00:53:43.155 --> 00:53:55.080
610
00:53:58.395 --> 00:53:59.055
I mean,
611
00:53:59.595 --> 00:54:06.095
when I say on chain, I mean, without any sort of privacy practices at all. So wouldn't that warrant the light client mode existing?
612
00:54:07.770 --> 00:54:13.790
As long as the risks are explained to users? Yeah. I'm I'm happy to walk back from my original,
613
00:54:14.330 --> 00:54:26.829
post on Twitter and say there are reasons to use it. Just like I would say there are reasons to use a VPN. I just don't want people thinking that using Tor is better than using a VPN. It's totally different.
614
00:54:27.369 --> 00:54:37.505
It's not, it it changes the whole model of what you're doing, and they are in different worlds even though they look similar. I think it I think the analogy holds up pretty tight. Like,
615
00:54:37.825 --> 00:54:38.325
samurai,
616
00:54:38.945 --> 00:54:44.470
like client usage, is like using a VPN. It crudely gets around stuff, but you're moving trust,
617
00:54:45.410 --> 00:54:47.430
to something else rather than
618
00:54:48.370 --> 00:55:09.415
getting rid of trust, which is obviously better. It would be great if we didn't have to trust samurai at all and still be able to use light nodes. That would I'm sure you agree, Zelco, that if you could use samurai without a full node and didn't have to trust them at all and not just go, they've probably never been hacked. Like, it would be a lot better if it was like, yeah. If they got hacked, it doesn't matter because they don't have any valuable information.
619
00:55:09.954 --> 00:55:12.775
That would obviously be better. Right? I'm sure you agree with that.
620
00:55:14.115 --> 00:55:17.930
621
00:55:18.230 --> 00:55:19.610
if there was no server
622
00:55:20.230 --> 00:55:22.395
and everyone you know, they had
623
00:55:22.715 --> 00:55:23.775
a different model,
624
00:55:24.395 --> 00:55:31.615
maybe. I mean, I would have to see what other potential options there are. And right now, there are no other potential options that serve
625
00:55:32.010 --> 00:55:33.390
the mass amount of users,
626
00:55:33.690 --> 00:55:37.390
right, to serve the people that can't that can't or don't run nodes,
627
00:55:38.329 --> 00:55:40.170
but still need privacy. So the
628
00:55:40.815 --> 00:55:55.200
until there's a solution that works, which, as I've already said, bloom filters would not work. And I know that SamRite Wallet would love for there be a solution for that not to be there. Like, they wouldn't develop the stuff that they have. They wouldn't develop Dojo if they wanted people to just stay on their server.
629
00:55:55.580 --> 00:56:02.955
Right? Like, it it's it costs more, right, for them to run a server and beef up at the server, add more,
630
00:56:04.215 --> 00:56:05.355
add more, like,
631
00:56:05.815 --> 00:56:13.349
like, hardware to their server, right, so that they can provide for all of these different people. Their server cost would go down if they didn't have to provide
632
00:56:13.890 --> 00:56:23.185
a server to people. Right? So it's better for them. They like that people run Dojo. They've always told since they released Dojo 1 point o, and I'm glad that I've been around since then,
633
00:56:23.565 --> 00:56:27.345
they've always wanted people to just run their node or to run Dojo.
634
00:56:27.670 --> 00:56:29.690
Like, they don't want people to be on there.
635
00:56:30.069 --> 00:56:37.295
Everyone and that's why and you see it. Right? You see it because stuff is set up that way. All, obviously, all the warning signs. Right?
636
00:56:38.174 --> 00:56:41.395
But, like, then you go into, like, the actual remixes in Whirlpool.
637
00:56:41.855 --> 00:56:43.155
People who are remixing
638
00:56:43.694 --> 00:56:44.434
are generally
639
00:56:45.135 --> 00:56:46.355
who? They're generally
640
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.620
people who are running a full node. Right? Because then you can just let it sit 247,
641
00:56:52.160 --> 00:57:02.135
and that's how you get those remixes because it's just running in the background. Right? If you have to keep it open on your phone, you're not gonna you're not gonna get mixes. It's very rare that people get mobile mixes,
642
00:57:02.595 --> 00:57:06.330
right, because of how big the liquidity pool is. So,
643
00:57:06.710 --> 00:57:07.210
like,
644
00:57:07.910 --> 00:57:08.570
to me,
645
00:57:09.030 --> 00:57:15.050
everything indicates that they want they they would love for a solution to be there that would actually work and provide the same
646
00:57:15.465 --> 00:57:18.125
level, same user experience that they have right now.
647
00:57:18.585 --> 00:57:19.085
Right?
648
00:57:19.785 --> 00:57:20.525
I I can
649
00:57:20.985 --> 00:57:22.685
safely attest without being
650
00:57:23.080 --> 00:57:23.820
being, like, in
651
00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:25.340
on their team
652
00:57:25.720 --> 00:57:29.500
that, of course, they would want something that would work better, but right now, there isn't.
653
00:57:30.015 --> 00:57:30.835
654
00:57:31.695 --> 00:57:32.675
first of all,
655
00:57:33.135 --> 00:57:36.515
I said it earlier, but we were talking over each other. I just wanna clarify.
656
00:57:38.220 --> 00:57:43.040
Bloom filters are old tech. It's different than block filters. But block filters,
657
00:57:43.900 --> 00:57:47.835
as it currently stands today, are too heavy to use efficiently on mobile.
658
00:57:48.935 --> 00:57:49.595
I think
659
00:57:50.775 --> 00:57:51.995
you both agree
660
00:57:52.775 --> 00:57:53.275
that
661
00:57:54.215 --> 00:57:54.695
if if
662
00:57:55.740 --> 00:58:00.080
you both agree that in certain situations, if the trade offs are made clear to users,
663
00:58:02.220 --> 00:58:03.680
the light client mode,
664
00:58:04.055 --> 00:58:07.435
the the ability for mobile users to to use
665
00:58:07.895 --> 00:58:10.875
transactional privacy tools to get additional privacy
666
00:58:12.180 --> 00:58:13.720
under a certain threat model,
667
00:58:14.820 --> 00:58:16.840
is valuable to certain users.
668
00:58:17.140 --> 00:58:20.680
And then I think you both agree that in a perfect world,
669
00:58:21.255 --> 00:58:25.195
that light mode, that mode without a user using their own node
670
00:58:25.895 --> 00:58:26.395
would
671
00:58:26.775 --> 00:58:27.755
not disclose
672
00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:33.960
transaction information to samurai servers. I think you both agree on both those statements.
673
00:58:35.700 --> 00:58:37.480
674
00:58:38.325 --> 00:58:42.265
throwing back to what you said a minute ago or actually quite far back with
675
00:58:43.924 --> 00:58:48.220
your question of, you know, if it comes with sufficient warnings and stuff. I mean, I don't
676
00:58:48.600 --> 00:58:51.420
know, what the warning is on Samurai exactly, but
677
00:58:52.040 --> 00:58:59.305
my thought on that is that if the warning exists that says, oh, if you're not gonna use Dojo and you're going to you're going to trust our server,
678
00:59:00.325 --> 00:59:04.105
in doing so, if there's ever a breach on our side or if we're bad actors,
679
00:59:04.770 --> 00:59:07.190
the privacy you have here can be completely undone.
680
00:59:07.730 --> 00:59:08.470
I just don't
681
00:59:08.849 --> 00:59:12.335
that would be the warning I would put on there, but I just don't think
682
00:59:12.895 --> 00:59:24.710
I would never develop the software and put that warning on there and just go, should I just get rid of this feature altogether? Because the fact that it's so bad means I'm basically telling people not to use it. Like, that to me is a
683
00:59:25.170 --> 00:59:47.270
a a a fair reflection of what you're offered when you use it with a light client. And I think it's you say, Zalco, that they don't wanna be, hosting people all the time. They don't want people to be using their server. They want them to use Dojo. I'm like, okay. Great. Then we agree. Get rid of the feature that allows you to use a light client at all. You can't. Like, you you can't just get rid of something that negates out,
684
00:59:48.305 --> 00:59:51.045
685
00:59:51.424 --> 00:59:55.125
The a mass amount of users who are using light wallet because they have to.
686
00:59:55.664 --> 01:00:01.010
Right? You're taking away people's ability to to have on chain privacy that we've already discussed,
687
01:00:01.470 --> 01:00:01.970
right,
688
01:00:02.750 --> 01:00:03.250
because
689
01:00:03.630 --> 01:00:07.525
of what it looks like, right, because of, you know, this this
690
01:00:07.984 --> 01:00:08.484
niche,
691
01:00:10.065 --> 01:00:10.565
potential,
692
01:00:10.865 --> 01:00:15.845
like, potential thing to happen, which which they disclose. So, like, I don't know. I
693
01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:19.500
I, like, I don't see why like, I I don't
694
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:23.339
I don't see the benefit of taking away a tool
695
01:00:23.665 --> 01:00:24.165
from
696
01:00:24.625 --> 01:00:25.125
people
697
01:00:25.425 --> 01:00:31.125
who need it. And that's really what I mean is need it. Right? We have a lot of people who
698
01:00:31.710 --> 01:00:34.610
who try to who, like, wanna take privacy seriously,
699
01:00:35.070 --> 01:00:41.674
but they don't actively need it. And then there are people who need it. There are people who live in countries where they need financial
700
01:00:42.855 --> 01:00:48.234
transaction privacy transactional privacy. Like, they need it versus, like, I'd like to have privacy.
701
01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:56.400
Right? So, like and I'm not saying I want everyone to be private, but, like, there are people who, like, life and death need need these kind of tools. Right?
702
01:00:56.755 --> 01:00:59.975
So you don't need So what so so as I've said
703
01:01:00.355 --> 01:01:01.175
as I've said,
704
01:01:01.635 --> 01:01:06.570
right, there are plenty of of other trade offs to running the node that's just
705
01:01:07.450 --> 01:01:18.785
as as risky as trusting Samura Wallet. They understand the threat. That's that's why people still use it. Like, if you think that, like, people who are in those risky situations will look at the trail.
706
01:01:19.405 --> 01:01:30.040
707
01:01:30.485 --> 01:01:43.090
708
01:01:43.470 --> 01:01:49.535
So then we'll go to a different foot. Do we wanna transition to that one? Well, if you like, but it's a different issue.
709
01:01:50.315 --> 01:01:50.815
Sure.
710
01:01:51.275 --> 01:01:54.575
It's a different it's a different, you know, goalpost. Sure.
711
01:01:56.109 --> 01:01:58.849
Well, I don't know. Because, like, I've built it from source,
712
01:01:59.550 --> 01:02:05.410
like, using like, actually using the tools and built it from sources, YouTube videos of people building it from source and reproducing the actual,
713
01:02:05.775 --> 01:02:09.635
APK. And then there's people that actually understand how Google APKs work.
714
01:02:10.095 --> 01:02:12.035
Right? And how the reproducibility
715
01:02:12.575 --> 01:02:24.355
doesn't mean shit. And it's a really stupid conversation to even be having, to be honest. Because if you really don't trust the the Google APK and you wanna use the the correct APK, right, you just go to their source. You check their,
716
01:02:25.234 --> 01:02:26.775
you do a checksum on,
717
01:02:27.635 --> 01:02:31.494
their actual release from their website, and you download from their website,
718
01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:41.214
and you check the code and make sure it verified just like you would for any other desktop wallet or anything else that you use. Right? So you could do that, and you would have the reproducibility
719
01:02:41.595 --> 01:02:44.015
that that you wanna complain about. Right?
720
01:02:44.714 --> 01:02:45.535
And, otherwise,
721
01:02:46.635 --> 01:02:49.055
like, the like, this conversation is totally separate.
722
01:02:49.569 --> 01:02:50.150
723
01:02:50.849 --> 01:02:52.069
724
01:02:52.530 --> 01:02:53.030
reproducibility
725
01:02:53.890 --> 01:03:01.015
on a Google APK is the is the most bottom bottom of barrel thing, and it's been so over it's been so,
726
01:03:01.555 --> 01:03:05.095
such a shutdown conversation. Like, we've debunked that
727
01:03:05.395 --> 01:03:08.135
so many times. I've debunked this one so many times.
728
01:03:08.560 --> 01:03:12.420
It's it just blows my mind that, like, that that's why
729
01:03:13.600 --> 01:03:20.685
like, if if, like, my if my debate was enough and then we had to transition over to reproducibility, it's like, okay. Like,
730
01:03:21.945 --> 01:03:26.400
I mean, we can we can hit all the fun. I don't care. I've I've been doing this for a long time.
731
01:03:27.339 --> 01:03:27.839
But
732
01:03:28.140 --> 01:03:30.319
just understand, like, the reproducibility thing,
733
01:03:31.020 --> 01:03:32.460
734
01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:36.785
735
01:03:37.245 --> 01:03:38.865
like, against against
736
01:03:39.245 --> 01:03:40.385
Samuari in particular.
737
01:03:40.765 --> 01:03:41.585
Right? But,
738
01:03:42.125 --> 01:04:11.795
739
01:04:12.335 --> 01:04:15.474
I like your project running Dojo. I like these things.
740
01:04:15.775 --> 01:04:24.880
What I have an issue with is one element of it and how it's characterized. And you've impressed upon me over and over again the life and death, the importance of privacy. And I'm saying,
741
01:04:25.180 --> 01:04:25.680
exactly.
742
01:04:26.135 --> 01:04:38.170
If privacy is that important and the difference can mean your death, then you can't ever tell people unserious solutions that might have an issue. Like, you need to be as forthright as possible. Like,
743
01:04:38.550 --> 01:04:41.130
744
01:04:41.430 --> 01:04:44.865
the I mean, that they are that forthright. Like, that is that is
745
01:04:45.505 --> 01:04:56.880
well, like, I mean, that you can have your opinion, but you you've already said that you haven't seen the warning. You haven't seen any of the pop ups. So I encourage you to, you know, download the wallet, start a new wallet, try to connect to their server, and see
746
01:04:57.260 --> 01:04:59.359
all the all the warning signs that come up,
747
01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:05.484
in addition to the fact that there's, you know, been 0 arrests or 0 issues with any of it. Right? So,
748
01:05:09.260 --> 01:05:11.040
Yeah. I I, like, I
749
01:05:11.820 --> 01:05:15.040
had a I had this point, and then you threw me off with that last one. But,
750
01:05:16.515 --> 01:05:17.975
yeah, I'm I'm just
751
01:05:18.515 --> 01:05:19.575
still kinda baffled
752
01:05:20.115 --> 01:05:20.615
by
753
01:05:20.915 --> 01:05:22.455
the fact that we think that
754
01:05:23.450 --> 01:05:26.030
it needs to be a node backed only,
755
01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:32.270
because it it doesn't take away from anything that a third party sees. Like, it just
756
01:05:32.955 --> 01:05:36.975
a third party would need to actually have the information that you're talking about.
757
01:05:37.355 --> 01:05:41.120
Right? I want everybody to run a node. I hope everyone does. But,
758
01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:44.260
it's it's just like you said, it's
759
01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:48.180
it's not something that can actually work in all the countries.
760
01:05:48.640 --> 01:05:53.465
It's things that in other countries running the node could be the thing that gets you compromised,
761
01:05:55.045 --> 01:05:59.720
right, which we don't we like, you keep passing over. Right? So what do you tell those people?
762
01:06:00.500 --> 01:06:02.119
Like, that their their Internet,
763
01:06:02.500 --> 01:06:03.619
usage is is,
764
01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:07.880
what's called, monitored. What do you tell those people?
765
01:06:08.535 --> 01:06:09.515
Sucks and suck?
766
01:06:10.695 --> 01:06:14.955
767
01:06:15.735 --> 01:06:18.500
768
01:06:22.160 --> 01:06:23.860
769
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:32.244
The their threat model is if I run a node, I'm in trouble, but I need privacy anyway. Then, yeah, their best bet is likely somewhere
770
01:06:32.625 --> 01:06:33.925
with a not like client.
771
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:36.740
772
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:47.125
it's exactly what I've been arguing this whole time. Yeah. That I don't think so. People need it. Some people don't have a choice, so you can't take away. No use case, Zalco. I'm saying that
773
01:06:47.505 --> 01:06:54.780
774
01:06:57.080 --> 01:06:57.580
775
01:06:58.040 --> 01:06:58.540
So
776
01:06:59.000 --> 01:06:59.740
so now
777
01:07:00.040 --> 01:07:01.740
Samurai with Zoho is Tor,
778
01:07:02.675 --> 01:07:04.615
and samurai wallet is a VPN?
779
01:07:05.315 --> 01:07:05.815
780
01:07:06.195 --> 01:07:21.775
I really think that analogy holds pretty tight. Oh, by the way, this douchebag who just asked, sorry. That's his real name. Is Ronin Dugger available in the Start nine marketplace for one click install? I'm sensing some underlying tension here perhaps for business reasons. There isn't this is a I should say really clearly,
781
01:07:22.075 --> 01:07:35.350
I'm not talking for start 9 here. I'm talking, on behalf of just myself, and there are people in the Start 9 company that actively really like Dojo and want it as a part of the Start 9 stack. I don't know if it would make it into the official
782
01:07:35.955 --> 01:07:37.575
marketplace that we offer, but,
783
01:07:38.035 --> 01:07:41.735
you know, it would definitely be available in the community marketplaces
784
01:07:42.035 --> 01:07:43.575
that are, I guess, coming.
785
01:07:44.730 --> 01:07:46.109
786
01:07:47.290 --> 01:07:52.190
business tensions, to be honest. If there was, there'd be there'd be a whole another thing.
787
01:07:54.285 --> 01:07:56.465
But we had we had that note debate before.
788
01:07:57.645 --> 01:07:59.345
789
01:07:59.885 --> 01:08:02.465
790
01:08:03.390 --> 01:08:04.369
that that was
791
01:08:04.670 --> 01:08:06.930
that was a freak named this douchebag
792
01:08:07.230 --> 01:08:13.555
on Twitch that he responded to. I just want everyone to be aware of that. Yeah. I wasn't I wasn't a reminder to Velcro.
793
01:08:14.175 --> 01:08:18.915
794
01:08:19.770 --> 01:08:20.270
No.
795
01:08:20.890 --> 01:08:28.090
796
01:08:28.805 --> 01:08:31.065
797
01:08:31.365 --> 01:08:34.985
so you don't need to trust any of the buyers. Available is not there.
798
01:08:35.525 --> 01:08:36.265
It's not
799
01:08:36.630 --> 01:08:42.489
it's not fully frost, but it is on a rolling window. So every few months, all the releases become full frost.
800
01:08:43.510 --> 01:08:48.585
801
01:08:49.385 --> 01:08:49.885
802
01:08:50.345 --> 01:08:54.830
803
01:08:55.690 --> 01:09:01.449
If anyone listening wants the answer to that question, just go back to Citadel dispatch 26, and it was very
804
01:09:02.775 --> 01:09:16.190
805
01:09:16.650 --> 01:09:17.370
806
01:09:18.545 --> 01:09:19.585
807
01:09:20.865 --> 01:09:21.925
Look. I think
808
01:09:22.385 --> 01:09:26.325
I I I think everyone here is more or less on the same page,
809
01:09:29.220 --> 01:09:33.160
and I don't know if going further really is productive at at all,
810
01:09:34.260 --> 01:09:34.760
unless
811
01:09:35.265 --> 01:09:40.965
unless you guys have something specific you want to touch on here. But but my my understanding
812
01:09:41.345 --> 01:09:42.725
here after this hour
813
01:09:43.665 --> 01:09:44.165
is
814
01:09:45.310 --> 01:09:46.929
mobile privacy tools
815
01:09:47.790 --> 01:09:54.210
are are useful to users. It's good that we have mobile privacy tools. Some users aren't gonna be able to use their own node.
816
01:09:54.974 --> 01:09:59.635
Going forward, it would be best to minimize the amount of trust in any company
817
01:10:00.255 --> 01:10:04.880
when it comes to using those tools. But right now, it does require trust in Samura.
818
01:10:05.260 --> 01:10:08.400
819
01:10:08.780 --> 01:10:13.395
use Bitcoin. Better, use Sami Wallet. Best, use Sami Wallet with,
820
01:10:15.215 --> 01:10:19.757
with your own Dojo. Right? Like, I think that's pretty straightforward and,
821
01:10:20.323 --> 01:10:22.450
and easy to to digest.
822
01:10:24.750 --> 01:10:31.125
If you really don't trust all that stuff, right, like, then run your own. Like, it's it's really that easy.
823
01:10:32.625 --> 01:10:34.645
I've like I said, I
824
01:10:35.585 --> 01:10:36.724
only had an issue.
825
01:10:37.310 --> 01:10:40.690
I I mean, I have I I don't mind. I want people to run
826
01:10:41.230 --> 01:10:43.010
full node. Like, that's why I've
827
01:10:43.550 --> 01:10:48.575
I've helped other node projects. I've done a lot, and I've I always wanna harp on that.
828
01:10:49.275 --> 01:10:50.175
But the reality
829
01:10:50.635 --> 01:10:51.295
is that
830
01:10:51.835 --> 01:10:52.735
we need to,
831
01:10:53.435 --> 01:10:56.495
we need to provide tools. We can't leave people out just because,
832
01:10:57.810 --> 01:11:00.790
and people are going to make their own decisions no matter what.
833
01:11:01.330 --> 01:11:05.510
It's important to remember that, you know, there's never been any
834
01:11:06.915 --> 01:11:12.695
any arrests led from a Whirlpool transaction or from a samurai wallet user that's been reported.
835
01:11:13.235 --> 01:11:13.735
Right?
836
01:11:15.395 --> 01:11:15.895
There's
837
01:11:16.430 --> 01:11:23.490
there's never been people, like, found on mixing their nodes, anything like that. When there's an issue, there's something that's been disclosed. Right?
838
01:11:25.070 --> 01:11:25.570
And
839
01:11:27.175 --> 01:11:35.034
and so when it comes down to this, like, some people need it, and we're not gonna take away like, I would not advocate for taking away a tool,
840
01:11:35.810 --> 01:11:39.750
to people that that need it, and they need to only use a mobile wallet.
841
01:11:41.410 --> 01:11:48.895
And then, you know, on top of that stuff, like, it's it's great that Sparrow has it as well. They also if they're a Lite Wallet user,
842
01:11:49.835 --> 01:11:56.810
or let's put it frame it I'll say light wallet. They don't have their own node, but they still use Spare Wallet. Right? You're still trusting a node to have have your information.
843
01:11:58.845 --> 01:12:05.665
So it's just important to to keep all that kind of stuff in mind that there's a risk trade off with everything that you do. Understand the risk,
844
01:12:06.330 --> 01:12:08.510
and figure out what's best for you. Right?
845
01:12:10.410 --> 01:12:14.830
And, you know, if if you find that you don't wanna trust Sami Wallet using a white wallet only,
846
01:12:15.395 --> 01:12:15.895
great.
847
01:12:16.835 --> 01:12:18.054
You run run-in dojo.
848
01:12:18.675 --> 01:12:25.440
You can run it, you know, you can run it on whatever device that you, you you know, whatever single board computer that you want,
849
01:12:26.140 --> 01:12:29.680
or you can buy a Tanto or whatever that that we have available. But,
850
01:12:30.860 --> 01:12:31.360
ultimately,
851
01:12:32.525 --> 01:12:33.345
on chain,
852
01:12:33.805 --> 01:12:39.985
no one can tell the difference between someone that got a mix as a Sparrow user, a Samurai user, or a,
853
01:12:41.390 --> 01:12:42.740
or, like, a,
854
01:12:43.190 --> 01:12:45.489
run a dojo user. So,
855
01:12:46.190 --> 01:12:52.575
what it comes down to is what does the blockchain say, and are we are we protected from chain analysis and law enforcement?
856
01:12:53.355 --> 01:12:54.975
And that answers yes.
857
01:12:57.035 --> 01:12:59.215
So use the tools. That's that's
858
01:12:59.520 --> 01:13:04.739
definitely what I would have I would have to say with it. And if you really don't trust any of that stuff, use the stonewall stowaway.
859
01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:10.075
We had a good time doing some live demos at Bitblock Boom. So,
860
01:13:11.175 --> 01:13:13.195
you know, use the tools. That's what's most important.
861
01:13:17.850 --> 01:13:21.230
862
01:13:21.930 --> 01:13:23.230
Yeah. So
863
01:13:23.565 --> 01:13:25.005
I think we're seeing a lot of,
864
01:13:25.725 --> 01:13:27.565
attention from law enforcement now.
865
01:13:28.125 --> 01:13:29.824
Obviously, the the debacle
866
01:13:31.165 --> 01:13:31.665
with
867
01:13:32.045 --> 01:13:36.750
Tornado Cash was sort of a a wake up call for a lot of people. Like, a lot of developers
868
01:13:37.530 --> 01:13:53.320
sort of, if you read between the lines, said, that's it. I'm not working on Bitcoin Core anymore. And, you know, you make the assumption that they might come back as anonymously or something like that. It's not as if we don't have good precedent in this space for, if you're going to develop controversial software, do it anonymously, like, I mean,
869
01:13:53.700 --> 01:13:54.200
Satoshi,
870
01:13:54.740 --> 01:13:55.240
obviously.
871
01:13:55.860 --> 01:13:56.360
So
872
01:13:57.540 --> 01:13:58.760
that being the case,
873
01:13:59.455 --> 01:14:04.195
don't paint a target on your back if you are with the best of intentions and a good actor,
874
01:14:04.495 --> 01:14:24.445
like in the best case, so now, samurai is. The fact that they have this data or they have the potential to keep hold of the records of that can unmask some of these not unmask to be phonetically correct, just to undo the effect of the coin join as a separate issue from then connecting an identity to the whole list of addresses you get.
875
01:14:25.130 --> 01:14:48.190
If they have the intention, and they certainly have a history of doing stuff like this, law enforcement, I mean, don't give them the opportunity to do it. And I'm really sure that this is encapsulated well with the adage of can't be evil is greater than don't be evil. Like, you don't want privacy policies. Like, is is someone gonna come out with a statement saying, we we promised to not leak your I mean, they effectively have.
876
01:14:48.890 --> 01:14:49.790
So I'm saying,
877
01:14:50.090 --> 01:14:52.830
I think that the the trade offs for this thing existing,
878
01:14:53.985 --> 01:14:55.285
I while I do acknowledge,
879
01:14:55.825 --> 01:15:04.860
the use case that some people have that can't afford to run nodes, I think it's pretty niche, to be honest, that running a node would get you in trouble and that somehow using Samurais,
880
01:15:05.240 --> 01:15:06.380
with a light client
881
01:15:06.920 --> 01:15:08.515
somehow gets you around that.
882
01:15:08.995 --> 01:15:21.520
I mean, we're talking 500 gigabytes. It's not a lot. That's like a couple of days on YouTube or Netflix. Like, if you're connecting over Tor, you should be alright. And given that you need Tor to use the summary thing in the first place, then
883
01:15:21.900 --> 01:15:27.215
I don't really actually, I I think I'm gonna take that back. I don't think I appreciate that there are,
884
01:15:27.835 --> 01:15:30.175
use cases for using samurai in light mode,
885
01:15:30.795 --> 01:15:35.400
because you can't run a node without getting in trouble. I don't really think that's a valid argument. So,
886
01:15:36.020 --> 01:15:41.400
I take back that olive branch. I think I'm just gonna say that I think the effect of it existing,
887
01:15:41.805 --> 01:15:43.505
if we love samurai and
888
01:15:44.045 --> 01:15:49.965
and appreciate the team, they are just painting a target on their back, and we know that controversial software like this,
889
01:15:51.350 --> 01:15:54.310
attracts law enforcement and gets people in trouble all the time.
890
01:15:54.790 --> 01:15:59.695
So don't do it. But given that's not really my position, I don't I don't think that.
891
01:16:00.094 --> 01:16:00.835
I think that,
892
01:16:01.375 --> 01:16:02.355
potentially, it's
893
01:16:03.534 --> 01:16:04.915
a lot worse than that.
894
01:16:05.695 --> 01:16:08.835
That means I would just advise people, let's not
895
01:16:09.230 --> 01:16:09.730
use,
896
01:16:10.270 --> 01:16:14.290
you shouldn't use samurai in a light mode at all. And the fact that it exists,
897
01:16:15.310 --> 01:16:16.370
makes me question,
898
01:16:16.910 --> 01:16:18.690
a lot of other things about the project
899
01:16:19.055 --> 01:16:19.875
as a whole.
900
01:16:20.495 --> 01:16:31.190
And it's not like every project in the world or any project is perfect. There's going to be compromises in the design of everything or just the sort of political choices. Like, wasabi is obviously
901
01:16:31.570 --> 01:16:32.070
compromised
902
01:16:32.530 --> 01:16:36.230
in a lot of people's heads just because of the choice they made to comply with law enforcement.
903
01:16:36.770 --> 01:16:37.270
So,
904
01:16:38.054 --> 01:16:42.135
remember that. Yeah. That's pretty much my position on it. I would advise people not use,
905
01:16:42.775 --> 01:16:47.490
I would advise people not use the like client because I don't think it's serious privacy, and I would advise people not use,
906
01:16:48.130 --> 01:16:50.230
other things, where they use samurai
907
01:16:50.610 --> 01:16:53.030
without relying on samurai servers,
908
01:16:54.370 --> 01:16:55.670
because in those instances,
909
01:16:56.245 --> 01:16:58.185
they are mixing with people that are potentially,
910
01:16:59.205 --> 01:17:05.065
leaking their xPub, and thus, the coin joints become something that can be partially or fully undone,
911
01:17:05.570 --> 01:17:12.630
which, gives them, a far weaker assumption of privacy than if they were to use something else like joint market or Wasabi.
912
01:17:12.995 --> 01:17:15.895
913
01:17:17.635 --> 01:17:18.615
So, again,
914
01:17:20.035 --> 01:17:28.920
it's not been any so I I just, like, I fail. I'm not like, I wanted to end with this, and I'm sorry, Matt. But, like, I fail to see how anything's being unwound.
915
01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:33.045
Right? Or people are losing privacy by mixing with with,
916
01:17:33.665 --> 01:17:34.885
semi server people
917
01:17:35.264 --> 01:17:36.005
if there's
918
01:17:36.385 --> 01:17:37.205
ever been
919
01:17:37.585 --> 01:17:47.719
a hack. There's never been any people getting arrested, which you would see if there was a hack. You'd see people getting arrested. You would see things happening. You would see any shit in the news. Right? Because that would take down their monetary,
920
01:17:48.755 --> 01:18:04.040
their financial means of of maintaining themselves. It's okay. You should still assume you should still assume. You can you can assume that that everyone's salary will be compromised. Sure. At some point. Sure. Sure. You I mean, you could you could assume that. That's fine. It's a safe assumption.
921
01:18:04.505 --> 01:18:05.704
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
922
01:18:07.465 --> 01:18:08.284
But, like,
923
01:18:08.585 --> 01:18:11.165
it it still goes back to this, like, point of, like, when,
924
01:18:11.860 --> 01:18:15.720
one, like, you mentioned, it's better for people to use Wasabi Wallet,
925
01:18:17.140 --> 01:18:17.640
over
926
01:18:18.100 --> 01:18:22.515
Standard Wallet. 1 works with like, openly works with chain analysis,
927
01:18:23.295 --> 01:18:26.995
and has terms and services. Does it they will they'll they'll work with law enforcement,
928
01:18:28.060 --> 01:18:30.160
versus one that doesn't
929
01:18:30.540 --> 01:18:35.520
even have a terms and service. Just use it what you want or fork it and do whatever you want with it.
930
01:18:35.985 --> 01:18:38.965
Build it from source. Do whatever the the hell you wanna do.
931
01:18:40.465 --> 01:18:44.645
And has implemented all the tools to make it so that you provide no
932
01:18:45.470 --> 01:18:46.930
no information to them.
933
01:18:47.630 --> 01:18:50.130
Right? The minimal amount of information possible.
934
01:18:50.750 --> 01:18:53.970
And then on top of that, I I fail to see how that unwinds
935
01:18:54.585 --> 01:18:57.965
people's mixes, and that's only in this fairytale
936
01:18:58.825 --> 01:18:59.325
situation
937
01:18:59.705 --> 01:19:03.565
that something bad happened and that whatever. So, like,
938
01:19:03.929 --> 01:19:05.310
I I just, like,
939
01:19:06.090 --> 01:19:08.830
you know, I figured we that it would shift into that.
940
01:19:09.210 --> 01:19:09.710
But,
941
01:19:10.090 --> 01:19:12.030
like, to to think that, like,
942
01:19:12.805 --> 01:19:17.705
the the majority, right, the majority of a mix is to even think a majority of the mix
943
01:19:18.245 --> 01:19:18.745
is,
944
01:19:19.765 --> 01:19:44.490
945
01:19:45.030 --> 01:19:48.410
946
01:19:49.054 --> 01:19:52.994
like, privacy in other countries is life and death. Right? And you're talking about
947
01:19:53.375 --> 01:19:57.635
a situation where those people, right, need to figure out a way to transact.
948
01:19:58.290 --> 01:19:59.430
Right? They have to.
949
01:19:59.890 --> 01:20:02.550
Right? That we're we're talking about people that are in,
950
01:20:02.850 --> 01:20:08.885
you know, in banned countries or whatever whatever you wanna call these these other places, right, that are in 3rd world countries
951
01:20:09.585 --> 01:20:13.605
that have horrible dictator like leaders like, horrible dictator like,
952
01:20:16.590 --> 01:20:17.489
state government.
953
01:20:17.790 --> 01:20:18.290
And
954
01:20:20.110 --> 01:20:22.290
they're supposed to be more concerned
955
01:20:22.909 --> 01:20:23.409
with,
956
01:20:24.625 --> 01:20:25.125
with
957
01:20:25.985 --> 01:20:33.045
a server getting hacked, which, like, you you're talking about any of these other KYC services, anyone that has any sort of actual information
958
01:20:33.440 --> 01:20:37.780
that they wanna go for for a samurai, which sure. They they maybe they have a
959
01:20:38.400 --> 01:20:39.699
a target on their back.
960
01:20:40.080 --> 01:20:40.980
Right? But
961
01:20:41.525 --> 01:20:47.465
you're telling me that that they're gonna go for that. They have no other information, but they're gonna go for the place that has doesn't have any information
962
01:20:48.085 --> 01:20:53.199
other than, like, the actual expos, but there's no PII that connects to them. Right? So
963
01:20:54.540 --> 01:20:59.175
why I say it's a fairy tale thing? Is it because people in the moment need to do what they need to do to
964
01:20:59.795 --> 01:21:12.760
to, like, either survive or transact the way that they need to in that moment, and they need to do a privacy. They need to do it privately. Right? That's why the initial mix in that, like, fat that first one is almost always fast,
965
01:21:13.060 --> 01:21:19.645
right, depending on how many people also try to mix. But if it's a smaller pool, you're probably gonna get that first mix instantly. You can do it on your mobile phone
966
01:21:19.945 --> 01:21:23.725
for that reason. Right? Because Bitcoin's for the streets, and these people need to operate
967
01:21:24.105 --> 01:21:25.485
right there so that they can
968
01:21:26.300 --> 01:21:28.000
continue to go forward. Now remixing
969
01:21:28.540 --> 01:21:39.305
is normally done by people who have dojos running 247. So there continues or their Yosin Sparrow or whatnot, and they have their computers on. They're running 247, so they're gonna continue to get remixes.
970
01:21:39.765 --> 01:21:46.220
Right? So maybe one of those people are gonna be a semi light a light user. But
971
01:21:47.080 --> 01:21:50.300
I I say that this is a a fairy tale thing
972
01:21:50.920 --> 01:21:51.420
because
973
01:21:52.125 --> 01:21:52.864
it it's
974
01:21:53.165 --> 01:22:15.345
not like, it's something that in the moment, someone that isn't someone who needs a transact isn't gonna give a shit about. And I know that because I've talked to many people who don't care. I've talked to many people who don't have the means to to do the node thing right now, and they're like, I just need to transact. I wanna do it privately, and I need to make it happen. Right? So they can use it. They could use the same amount for one transaction if they wanted to. Use it, mix it, send it.
975
01:22:15.885 --> 01:22:16.385
And
976
01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:18.740
how how you're justifying
977
01:22:19.280 --> 01:22:25.540
that I'm making this into something that's not life or death, I'm just saying that this this theater that we're creating
978
01:22:26.935 --> 01:22:30.075
is, something that doesn't apply to real people in real life.
979
01:22:30.455 --> 01:22:33.035
Like, it's something that they are willing to accept.
980
01:22:33.390 --> 01:22:36.930
Right? They know what they're doing because they're already trying to act privately.
981
01:22:37.310 --> 01:22:41.010
They're willing to accept it. Right? And they're doing it.
982
01:22:41.555 --> 01:22:42.055
And
983
01:22:42.435 --> 01:22:48.135
by saying, like, oh, well, like, you don't care or you think it's a, you know, a fallacy that I care about,
984
01:22:48.835 --> 01:22:55.910
you know, people using server. I want people to use a server, but or I want people to run their own dojo. But, honestly, like, if they know their their,
985
01:22:56.530 --> 01:23:00.875
threat model and they're willing to just say screw it, I'm I'm gonna accept the risk
986
01:23:01.415 --> 01:23:08.480
that comes with trusting SamRite Wallet. Since I'm already using their wallet anyways, I'm gonna trust their server, and I'm just gonna make this happen because I need to do this transaction.
987
01:23:09.260 --> 01:23:09.760
So,
988
01:23:10.140 --> 01:23:12.560
yeah, I'm saying in terms of, like, real life people,
989
01:23:13.284 --> 01:23:14.744
it like, this theater
990
01:23:15.125 --> 01:23:18.585
is maybe fairy tale was wrong word. This theater.
991
01:23:19.125 --> 01:23:19.625
Right?
992
01:23:20.250 --> 01:23:24.830
It's that's why I said it's it's like white knighting or, like, white knighting running a node.
993
01:23:25.449 --> 01:23:30.375
Like, I mean, like, I could preach all day about running a node, but, like, it'll probably help my,
994
01:23:31.155 --> 01:23:45.469
you know, run a dojo sales. I don't give 2 shits about that. I care about people being able to transact. I want people to be sovereign. I don't want people to use server. I want everyone to do all the things that are necessary to be a private individual. But if you need to do it and you are willing to accept those,
995
01:23:46.065 --> 01:23:48.405
you know, that trade off, you're still gonna have,
996
01:23:49.185 --> 01:23:49.685
immediate
997
01:23:50.145 --> 01:23:53.045
you're going to have immediate unchanged privacy,
998
01:23:53.790 --> 01:23:55.730
right, from a 3rd party observer.
999
01:23:56.909 --> 01:23:59.330
Is not a 3rd party observer if they're your node,
1000
01:23:59.870 --> 01:24:01.810
right, just like with any other node.
1001
01:24:02.135 --> 01:24:02.635
So,
1002
01:24:04.455 --> 01:24:12.910
I, yeah, that I I figured that that was gonna happen. I didn't think it was gonna happen. You were gonna bring that point up at the last point on your closing statement,
1003
01:24:13.530 --> 01:24:14.030
but,
1004
01:24:14.490 --> 01:24:18.110
like, it's pretty disingenuous to think that you're gonna unmix everything
1005
01:24:18.490 --> 01:24:22.015
when you have the the vast majority of remixers are,
1006
01:24:23.035 --> 01:24:25.855
are dojo users, so or Sparrow users.
1007
01:24:26.315 --> 01:24:29.310
1008
01:24:30.350 --> 01:24:39.555
an onset of 5. Right? It's not it's not a lot of effort if, you know, if a couple of those people are using like clients and summarize, then
1009
01:24:40.815 --> 01:24:48.410
whoop dee doo, you got a coin joined with an an onset of 3. Like, that's I'm not exactly sleeping well at night. So you don't
1010
01:24:49.130 --> 01:24:49.630
1011
01:24:50.250 --> 01:24:56.830
I like, this is a whole another conversation. And, again, kinda like when I and I didn't mean to be an asshole, and I don't mean, like,
1012
01:24:57.675 --> 01:24:58.655
when I said,
1013
01:24:59.034 --> 01:25:01.695
yeah, you're out of your element. You're out of your element.
1014
01:25:02.074 --> 01:25:04.815
Like, if you don't understand how Whirlpool works
1015
01:25:05.290 --> 01:25:07.630
and how forward and backwards privacy works,
1016
01:25:09.290 --> 01:25:12.829
the end of the debate isn't the right time to do that, but
1017
01:25:13.685 --> 01:25:24.239
you continue that's that's why they we encourage remixing. Right? That's why we don't say mix once and leave it. Right? If you needed to and you just needed to break immediate ties and spend immediately, sure.
1018
01:25:24.620 --> 01:25:26.800
Like, you've broken deterministic lengths.
1019
01:25:27.180 --> 01:25:30.055
Remixing is better. Remixing will continue to be better.
1020
01:25:31.895 --> 01:25:39.035
And it you gain privacy whether you remix or not. If you don't understand how remix it like, how forward and backwards privacy works with Whirlpool,
1021
01:25:39.390 --> 01:25:46.370
1022
01:25:46.745 --> 01:26:01.090
1023
01:26:01.790 --> 01:26:04.415
Like, you are not you are not necessarily the end user.
1024
01:26:04.815 --> 01:26:21.860
Like, unless I'm not. I mean, do you but, like, are you in a, like, a a third world are you in Iran or a third world country that you have to be worried about this? Probably not. You know, it's somewhere we're at Right? But you're not in a in a country that has to worry about that. Right? So one mix might might be enough for someone in one of those countries.
1025
01:26:22.185 --> 01:26:26.364
And if it is, then they're gonna do it, and then they're gonna move. They're gonna make their transaction
1026
01:26:26.905 --> 01:26:36.590
1027
01:26:36.970 --> 01:26:37.790
I e Canada.
1028
01:26:38.330 --> 01:26:47.415
But, I mean, I'm not trying to play I'm not trying to win some competition for me being the most oppressed or, like, win a a victim hierarchy thing. Like Yeah.
1029
01:26:47.795 --> 01:26:53.490
My point is that I agree with you that these people are I mean, okay. I've made this point too many times.
1030
01:26:54.210 --> 01:26:58.665
Matt, do you wanna read Shinobi's tweet at you? That was kind of interesting. I haven't
1031
01:26:59.425 --> 01:27:07.764
Christ. Shinobi Shinobi say? He said, why is online not implemented a scheme where Postmates XPub is never revealed to their server.
1032
01:27:08.180 --> 01:27:16.120
You never receive money to Postmates unless you sign a transaction yourself where you can just locally case that UTXO and never need to query the server.
1033
01:27:16.500 --> 01:27:17.480
It's a good question.
1034
01:27:21.575 --> 01:27:22.555
1035
01:27:23.095 --> 01:27:23.755
I'm sorry.
1036
01:27:24.909 --> 01:27:30.610
I just, like, can't handle fucking anything that Shenobi says because he's just off the off the rails 99.99%
1037
01:27:31.550 --> 01:27:33.010
of the time. But
1038
01:27:34.042 --> 01:27:43.540
Wait. So we're gonna something where they don't see the expo. If you don't have the expo, right, for post mix, how are you going to refresh someone's wallet? How are you gonna shoot them their balance?
1039
01:27:47.540 --> 01:27:55.405
Sorry. Could you repeat? If someone so, like, even if I'm on my dojo, right, I run my own node, same thing that the semi semi server. Right?
1040
01:27:55.865 --> 01:28:01.650
If I if we have some scheme where it doesn't give the x the post mix expo,
1041
01:28:02.350 --> 01:28:04.850
how are you gonna refer how are you going to give them,
1042
01:28:05.310 --> 01:28:08.530
how are you gonna show in the wallet that you have a balance?
1043
01:28:09.225 --> 01:28:13.385
1044
01:28:14.025 --> 01:28:18.830
unnecessarily take that XPub in the first place? You could just literally not take it, and it wouldn't
1045
01:28:19.130 --> 01:28:23.710
it wouldn't it doesn't affect Samura's ability to do what Samura does with a light client
1046
01:28:24.170 --> 01:28:37.039
1047
01:28:37.659 --> 01:28:39.360
They would only have your deposit,
1048
01:28:39.820 --> 01:28:43.119
x pub, but they wouldn't have your your pre or your post.
1049
01:28:43.915 --> 01:28:52.815
But they're still supposed to have all the same like, be able to transact the same way. How how could you transact with a constant to 0? Shinobi is saying Shinobi is saying
1050
01:28:54.300 --> 01:28:57.040
1051
01:28:58.940 --> 01:29:02.480
but the postmix XPub is not shared with Samurais servers
1052
01:29:02.925 --> 01:29:04.305
because if you're sending
1053
01:29:04.765 --> 01:29:05.825
to post mix,
1054
01:29:06.285 --> 01:29:07.665
you're sending to yourself.
1055
01:29:10.040 --> 01:29:16.219
So the server wouldn't necessarily need that at time of of receipt post mix. But I I think
1056
01:29:17.645 --> 01:29:24.705
I think How does it how does the wallet I think when it the the issue really comes down when it comes time to spend from the post mix.
1057
01:29:25.430 --> 01:29:31.290
1058
01:29:32.150 --> 01:29:33.610
1059
01:29:33.985 --> 01:29:36.085
you would you can know your balance presumably.
1060
01:29:38.625 --> 01:29:46.280
You can know your balance presumably because you know that for the post mix. Yeah. You just can't spend from the wallet. Look. I I think I think that's that's
1061
01:29:46.740 --> 01:29:51.640
you know, I first of all, I appreciate Shinobi participating in the show. I wish you would
1062
01:29:52.805 --> 01:29:57.465
join the live chat that the show has so that we could see it on screen. That'd be all.
1063
01:29:58.165 --> 01:29:58.485
But,
1064
01:29:59.740 --> 01:30:02.720
I I I think you both agree.
1065
01:30:03.340 --> 01:30:04.400
I know I
1066
01:30:04.940 --> 01:30:06.720
agree with this statement that
1067
01:30:07.275 --> 01:30:09.935
the less information samurai knows, the better.
1068
01:30:10.235 --> 01:30:14.735
Mhmm. And my understanding is that they're trying to know less information over time.
1069
01:30:15.275 --> 01:30:15.775
1070
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:20.100
1071
01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:25.700
I know I'm not supposed to be a part of this debate, but I personally would like to see more
1072
01:30:26.725 --> 01:30:28.105
privacy focused tools
1073
01:30:28.565 --> 01:30:29.305
for Bitcoiners,
1074
01:30:29.925 --> 01:30:30.425
specifically
1075
01:30:31.445 --> 01:30:32.745
on the mobile side.
1076
01:30:33.820 --> 01:30:43.120
I think if you're on desktop, you have decent options right now. If you're able to use your own node, you have decent options. I would like to see as many mobile options as possible,
1077
01:30:44.045 --> 01:30:46.065
and we just have not seen that yet, unfortunately.
1078
01:30:47.005 --> 01:30:51.105
1079
01:30:51.645 --> 01:31:11.270
1080
01:31:12.370 --> 01:31:19.475
that their only computer is a mobile phone. Like, we keep talking about, like, the 3rd world or something, but, like, the same goes for, like,
1081
01:31:20.115 --> 01:31:24.775
someone stacking with a KYC service like Swan and withdrawing it to their mobile wallet.
1082
01:31:26.195 --> 01:31:28.615
Like, there needs to be mobile privacy tools,
1083
01:31:29.290 --> 01:31:30.110
and they should
1084
01:31:30.650 --> 01:31:34.429
they should, you know, take the least amount of information possible.
1085
01:31:34.730 --> 01:31:38.875
A a company should have the least amount of information possible when they're running it.
1086
01:31:39.435 --> 01:31:51.580
1087
01:31:52.060 --> 01:31:52.560
basically,
1088
01:31:53.020 --> 01:32:01.505
every team has come along and said, yeah. You can't do proper coin joints on mobile. And Sunrise said, yeah. You can. You just have to make this trade off. And I'm saying that's a bad trade off.
1089
01:32:02.285 --> 01:32:06.145
Too bad for it to be something that I would recommend anyone ever use.
1090
01:32:09.330 --> 01:32:11.230
1091
01:32:12.130 --> 01:32:20.005
I've already beat, like, this issue and to, you know, feel like I'm beating a dead horse if I continue to respond to the like, it's,
1092
01:32:20.385 --> 01:32:22.724
like, recommending it to people or not. Disagree.
1093
01:32:23.264 --> 01:32:25.045
Yeah. No. I mean, like, that's fine.
1094
01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:29.880
Because, like, like, going through waves of stuff.
1095
01:32:30.340 --> 01:32:30.840
But,
1096
01:32:32.900 --> 01:32:34.840
yeah, I mean, I would love to see more
1097
01:32:36.505 --> 01:32:38.525
more wallets utilizing it.
1098
01:32:39.625 --> 01:32:43.245
And, honestly, if there when the day comes that there's a better
1099
01:32:43.580 --> 01:32:44.080
way
1100
01:32:44.460 --> 01:32:47.040
to support light wallet users with less information,
1101
01:32:47.659 --> 01:33:05.710
like, you can guarantee that if it actually works the way it's supposed to, like, it'll be here. Well, I mean, it's actually real There's not. You know, there there's not a good way. Like, we've already kinda There might be. Touch on it. I mean, you've got Trezor integrating with Savi. Right? So you can run Trezor as potentially a You're not talking about a mobile wallet.
1102
01:33:06.330 --> 01:33:23.360
1103
01:33:23.900 --> 01:33:27.985
1104
01:33:28.285 --> 01:33:30.385
doing that? You could just use Sparrow.
1105
01:33:30.765 --> 01:33:34.305
If you're gonna talk like, I like, I just like, that's such a shift.
1106
01:33:35.870 --> 01:33:40.770
Honestly, like Yeah. I realized that. Not there's not a bet like, there's not a better way right now.
1107
01:33:42.190 --> 01:34:01.920
That's bad. That doesn't involve someone running their own node, which is exactly what you you just said. They were run they would be running their own node, or you're running a mobile app that's connected to this the treasury suite, which is connected to either your node or their node. It's still connecting to a node, and it's still Well, that's going back to a full node. That's true. Let me be clear. You still need to run a node, today,
1108
01:34:02.235 --> 01:34:04.975
1109
01:34:05.435 --> 01:34:17.820
1110
01:34:18.655 --> 01:34:20.195
set it up so that light wallets
1111
01:34:20.815 --> 01:34:25.795
only get, like, whatever information until something is, like, concrete out there,
1112
01:34:26.095 --> 01:34:26.595
like,
1113
01:34:27.150 --> 01:34:29.570
there's no reason that I would recommend,
1114
01:34:30.670 --> 01:34:32.210
to the semi team to
1115
01:34:32.590 --> 01:34:34.690
do away with and abandon
1116
01:34:35.335 --> 01:34:37.994
their users that might need the tools.
1117
01:34:38.295 --> 01:34:39.655
Right? Like, that's
1118
01:34:41.094 --> 01:34:50.750
you can disagree. You can disagree and say, like, whatever. Like, no. They're they're larping. I I don't care. I know for a fact that there are people that use this because they need it,
1119
01:34:51.050 --> 01:34:51.550
and,
1120
01:34:53.155 --> 01:34:58.215
like, they don't care. Like, they don't care about that trade off. They're willing to accept it. So
1121
01:34:58.594 --> 01:35:03.900
to just take it away now if there when that when that, you know, ability comes up,
1122
01:35:04.200 --> 01:35:04.860
you know,
1123
01:35:05.560 --> 01:35:14.435
to be able to do that and not have a central server, I'm sure Samara will be very happy to, like, not have to run their you know, decrease their server costs.
1124
01:35:16.255 --> 01:35:17.455
You know, but the
1125
01:35:18.200 --> 01:35:19.100
you know, these,
1126
01:35:19.480 --> 01:35:25.020
like, fairy tale fairy tale ideas of, like, some random solution that may or may not be plausible,
1127
01:35:26.725 --> 01:35:30.985
you know, like, until someone writes some code that makes it that makes it
1128
01:35:31.364 --> 01:35:33.625
sound concrete to something that actually would work,
1129
01:35:34.210 --> 01:35:37.430
I wouldn't recommend just taking away tools from people just because,
1130
01:35:38.050 --> 01:35:43.670
someone sees as a threat model, which Samurai also sees as a threat model, which is why they explain it to them. So,
1131
01:35:45.445 --> 01:35:52.825
yeah, I like, people can disagree. People can, you know, say, like, you know, just samurai, well, it's great. Just use it with
1132
01:35:55.040 --> 01:35:58.420
use it with a dojo. Right? Like, go for it. Right?
1133
01:35:58.960 --> 01:36:01.220
Yep. Very com But, like, just
1134
01:36:01.525 --> 01:36:04.905
just understanding, like, how you how we say things is important.
1135
01:36:05.445 --> 01:36:12.230
Like, saying, like, if you use Sam Rylie Wallet, you're retarded or saying which, obviously, you're you're trolling, but, like,
1136
01:36:13.010 --> 01:36:19.965
going just continue to dive down into it or saying, like, you don't trust them because they have that model, which I explained is because of,
1137
01:36:20.265 --> 01:36:25.245
you know, the history behind it, user activated soft work. You needed someone you trusted
1138
01:36:25.730 --> 01:36:27.270
if you were running a light client.
1139
01:36:27.969 --> 01:36:28.469
So
1140
01:36:29.650 --> 01:36:34.310
understanding these threat models, understanding, like, you know, why there's why they're set up the way they are.
1141
01:36:34.885 --> 01:36:41.705
And until something better comes out, they can't just take they they should not just take away the tools from people that need to use them.
1142
01:36:42.885 --> 01:36:50.340
And, like, 90% of the users are gaining privacy because they they care about privacy, not because they need privacy,
1143
01:36:50.975 --> 01:36:53.074
but taking away from the 10%,
1144
01:36:53.775 --> 01:36:56.755
you know, that actually need it is important.
1145
01:36:57.535 --> 01:37:00.035
And I don't think we should be just taking it away,
1146
01:37:00.989 --> 01:37:04.130
and they can accept the risk that that they've been taking.
1147
01:37:05.949 --> 01:37:10.925
And, you know, you might disagree with them, but they're the ones living living that life,
1148
01:37:11.385 --> 01:37:12.605
not you. So,
1149
01:37:14.825 --> 01:37:20.120
1150
01:37:20.920 --> 01:37:24.300
the assumption that they understand the risks they're taking.
1151
01:37:27.265 --> 01:37:28.405
1152
01:37:28.705 --> 01:37:48.590
1153
01:37:49.210 --> 01:37:49.710
primarily
1154
01:37:50.090 --> 01:37:56.270
light wallets that actually notify the user when they boot them up that, you know, if you use this without your own node,
1155
01:37:57.335 --> 01:37:59.275
you're screwing our privacy up.
1156
01:37:59.975 --> 01:38:00.475
Yep.
1157
01:38:00.935 --> 01:38:09.040
I, or that you have to trust that you have to trust the company with your privacy to be more exact. I have a question for you, mechanic, because I'm a little bit of a masochist,
1158
01:38:09.500 --> 01:38:10.000
and,
1159
01:38:11.500 --> 01:38:13.265
I'm curious of your opinion. So,
1160
01:38:14.145 --> 01:38:17.925
and when I say masochist, it's because I don't know. I feel like this conversation is is
1161
01:38:18.785 --> 01:38:20.165
gotten a little bit tedious.
1162
01:38:21.159 --> 01:38:26.059
So Sparrow, it's you know, so Sparrow is developed by Craig Raw. He's the lead maintainer.
1163
01:38:27.320 --> 01:38:31.284
It kinda made a you know, it came it kinda came out of nowhere and has been
1164
01:38:31.585 --> 01:38:33.684
it's it's my favorite desktop wallet now.
1165
01:38:34.224 --> 01:38:35.445
He made an interesting
1166
01:38:35.824 --> 01:38:36.965
trade off decision.
1167
01:38:37.380 --> 01:38:39.160
It's often compared to Electrum
1168
01:38:39.860 --> 01:38:40.520
in in
1169
01:38:40.820 --> 01:38:41.800
in its capabilities,
1170
01:38:42.740 --> 01:38:58.160
but he made a different so with when you boot up Electrum, you don't connect it to your own node. It just connects to a random Electrum node. And a lot of a lot of people speculate that random Electrum nodes are run by chain surveillance companies and potentially governments or whatnot that are trying to track you.
1171
01:38:58.940 --> 01:39:05.965
So people advise, you know, use your own Electrum node instead of using one of the defaults. On Sparrow, if you don't use
1172
01:39:06.425 --> 01:39:13.980
your own node, which he makes it very explicit in the beginning when you're setting it up. It's like, do you wanna use a public node, or do you wanna use your own node?
1173
01:39:14.280 --> 01:39:17.420
If you don't use your own node, he gives you a drop down of 4
1174
01:39:18.505 --> 01:39:19.804
4 choices
1175
01:39:20.105 --> 01:39:21.645
that are not run by him.
1176
01:39:22.025 --> 01:39:23.005
1 is Blockstream,
1177
01:39:23.864 --> 01:39:25.005
1 is MZ,
1178
01:39:26.860 --> 01:39:27.920
one is Bitteroo,
1179
01:39:28.380 --> 01:39:30.480
and I forget who the third one is.
1180
01:39:30.940 --> 01:39:33.280
But he gives you an he gives you 4 choices.
1181
01:39:33.905 --> 01:39:41.845
Luke Childs. Was the last one? Luke Childs. Oh, yeah. Luke Childs. He gives you 4 choices not run by him. Do you prefer that over
1182
01:39:42.850 --> 01:39:43.670
just defaulting
1183
01:39:44.050 --> 01:39:46.310
to, in this case, Arrow server?
1184
01:39:49.170 --> 01:39:51.750
Giving you other options? He gives he gives you, like, curated
1185
01:39:52.065 --> 01:39:55.525
Right? He's, like, you know, I'm not gonna connect you to a random Electrum node, but
1186
01:39:55.905 --> 01:40:00.804
your Yeah. To clarify semi trusted ones that are run by members of the community.
1187
01:40:01.700 --> 01:40:11.320
Can you clarify if what the default is with Sparo? So with Sparo, when you load it up, it, like, goes through the full trade off model. It's, like, if you use a public node, if,
1188
01:40:12.105 --> 01:40:19.405
if you if you use your own node, like, it gives you, like, a full explanation, and then it asks you which one you wanna use.
1189
01:40:19.910 --> 01:40:24.970
And then if you click public node, it gives you a drop down of those 4 nodes, or you can enter a different node.
1190
01:40:25.990 --> 01:40:33.185
1191
01:40:33.485 --> 01:40:45.675
JW, who I tend to disagree with literally everything he says. But, one time he was criticizing Coldcard for having in their instructions a way to use Electrum, and he said this means it's all spooky, you know,
1192
01:40:46.455 --> 01:40:55.190
government project because the default for Electrum is that it connects to a bunch of Electrum servers, which you just alluded to might be chain analysis servers or whatever. And,
1193
01:40:55.570 --> 01:41:02.895
you know, that's the thing I don't like about Electrum. Like, my my favorite, if I can riff here a bit on what you said, my favorite wallet, really,
1194
01:41:03.275 --> 01:41:04.015
no endorsement
1195
01:41:04.475 --> 01:41:06.095
or no no financial
1196
01:41:07.275 --> 01:41:09.055
incentive on my end is, Specter,
1197
01:41:09.830 --> 01:41:18.410
because you just can't use it without a node. But, of course, I know that you're gonna disagree, Zelco. That that's a good thing. Like, users should have that option, but,
1198
01:41:19.270 --> 01:41:25.355
I I like the fact that you can't. I mean, so when it comes to Sparrow, Craig was, like he's sort of hostile towards Tor.
1199
01:41:26.055 --> 01:41:28.155
Maybe he's not so hostile anymore, but
1200
01:41:28.640 --> 01:41:36.180
1201
01:41:38.195 --> 01:41:45.815
1202
01:41:46.190 --> 01:41:51.170
I can't remember the nuance of his argument, so put an extra the connects to that. The argument, I'm pretty sure,
1203
01:41:51.550 --> 01:41:54.450
1204
01:41:54.855 --> 01:41:59.275
you don't need to go and connect to it through Tor. You can just connect to it through the local network
1205
01:41:59.895 --> 01:42:05.510
because why are you adding that latency and failure rate for for no no privacy gain?
1206
01:42:07.409 --> 01:42:25.660
Right. Well, that's totally valid. I thought he had another issue with it, but I might be misremembering. One of the cool parts about Sparrow is that it has Tor built in. So you can paste, like, the Tor address of your Electrum node in, and then wherever you are in the world, you can use your own node by just pasting in that Tor string, and you don't even have to install Tor separately. Yeah.
1207
01:42:26.280 --> 01:42:35.224
1208
01:42:35.684 --> 01:42:37.864
and there's pretty good reason for that.
1209
01:42:38.485 --> 01:42:42.425
Maybe I'm just stuck in my ways, but I respect to Fanboy. Okay. So
1210
01:42:42.870 --> 01:42:45.050
1211
01:42:45.750 --> 01:42:49.610
So users using Sparrow chooses the Blockstream node,
1212
01:42:50.605 --> 01:42:51.985
and then does a Whirlpool
1213
01:42:52.285 --> 01:42:54.305
transaction, does a collaborative transaction,
1214
01:42:55.165 --> 01:42:55.665
CoinJoin.
1215
01:42:56.605 --> 01:42:58.305
Do is there a benefit there?
1216
01:43:02.680 --> 01:43:03.180
1217
01:43:04.520 --> 01:43:15.025
There's a trade off, in the presumably, they're not running their own node. Otherwise, they would've used it, and they can't make the same assumptions about their privacy as they could if they were using their own node.
1218
01:43:19.140 --> 01:43:27.565
1219
01:43:27.865 --> 01:43:30.125
1220
01:43:30.825 --> 01:43:44.170
of maybe something I've hinted at or just said a few times in this, debate, which is moving trust from what that's why I keep using the VPN analogy. I think the VPN analogy is a great analogy, by the way. That's how I look at it. I appreciate it. I actually think,
1221
01:43:45.415 --> 01:43:51.594
1222
01:43:51.980 --> 01:43:57.200
you know, you you have to trust the coordinator to a degree because they can civil attack you at minimal cost.
1223
01:43:58.380 --> 01:44:00.880
The civil defense on a coordinator is
1224
01:44:01.325 --> 01:44:09.025
is in a low transaction fee environment where mining transaction fees aren't high, there's there's no civil protection from the coordinator itself.
1225
01:44:10.430 --> 01:44:13.250
Yeah, man. There's just so much that works really well.
1226
01:44:14.350 --> 01:44:22.025
I've yeah. I appreciate that because it does hold quite tight, I think. I just think VPNs can be useful if they're explained if the trade offs are explained well.
1227
01:44:22.965 --> 01:44:26.505
That's basically where me and you disagree at the at the least.
1228
01:44:27.020 --> 01:44:31.920
1229
01:44:32.699 --> 01:44:49.500
some bad design choices, but I will extend the olive branch and say that samurai does some great choices as well that pretty much no one else does. So I don't just wanna be a mindless hater with it. I I I disagree on this one sticking point, really, as well as maybe some other minor technical decisions.
1230
01:44:49.880 --> 01:44:50.380
But,
1231
01:44:50.915 --> 01:44:51.575
you know,
1232
01:44:52.594 --> 01:44:53.255
I think
1233
01:44:53.875 --> 01:44:57.895
I think that explaining those things and having people use it with full awareness
1234
01:44:58.435 --> 01:44:59.175
has not
1235
01:44:59.475 --> 01:44:59.975
been
1236
01:45:00.730 --> 01:45:21.090
something like, we can say that people use it having educated themselves fully, and we can wash our hands of it and say, you know, if people people understand the trade offs when they use it, but that's, to me, just not realistic. People don't really do the research, and people just use default settings on things. That's, again, why I like Spectre because you can't use it unless you're running a node. Like, everyone running Electrum
1237
01:45:21.470 --> 01:45:27.915
you know, running an Electrum personal server is hard. Right? It's it's a difficult thing to do. And if you're using a node like Umbrella
1238
01:45:28.295 --> 01:45:29.515
or or Embassy,
1239
01:45:29.975 --> 01:45:45.015
you know, you've gotta connect to elect RS or something like that over Tor, and, man, it's just it's pretty much unusable. Right? Like, to to use your note that way and, like, on paper, it all works great. But in reality, half the time, your Electrum is gonna be saying it's not connected.
1240
01:45:45.555 --> 01:45:55.340
1241
01:45:56.520 --> 01:45:58.140
of Craig of Sparrow.
1242
01:45:59.215 --> 01:46:05.555
So the the most common way of using Specter is you run Bitcoin Core and you run Specter on the same computer,
1243
01:46:06.650 --> 01:46:09.070
and they basically automatically connect to each other.
1244
01:46:09.610 --> 01:46:11.230
Sparrow has a similar feature,
1245
01:46:12.090 --> 01:46:15.915
where you can run Bitcoin Core on your computer and you can run Sparrow on the same computer.
1246
01:46:16.375 --> 01:46:21.115
If but he pops up a warning, and the reason he pops up the warning is because
1247
01:46:21.975 --> 01:46:22.475
your
1248
01:46:23.030 --> 01:46:24.890
your public keys are actually
1249
01:46:25.350 --> 01:46:27.130
stored in Bitcoin Core,
1250
01:46:27.430 --> 01:46:30.970
and Bitcoin Core doesn't encrypt them. So if your computer is compromised,
1251
01:46:33.465 --> 01:46:33.965
the
1252
01:46:34.505 --> 01:46:37.165
all the address information in Sparrow is encrypted,
1253
01:46:37.545 --> 01:46:43.550
but all the address information in Bitcoin Core isn't, and it can be compromised in that regard. And that's why he likes
1254
01:46:44.409 --> 01:46:45.230
the Electrum
1255
01:46:45.770 --> 01:46:49.150
server model that because you have you have the computer
1256
01:46:49.615 --> 01:46:54.035
that is maybe more of a multiuse computer that doesn't have
1257
01:46:54.895 --> 01:46:58.035
all that sensitive private information unencrypted on it.
1258
01:46:58.560 --> 01:47:04.660
And then your node doesn't actually have that information on it either because it's just getting pinged all the time by the client.
1259
01:47:05.735 --> 01:47:09.115
I thought that was interesting. I never thought about that until you mentioned it.
1260
01:47:09.735 --> 01:47:16.220
No. That's a great point, and he's dead on. But it is really easy to just run Bitcoin Core on your computer with Sparrow or Spectre attached to it.
1261
01:47:16.680 --> 01:47:19.980
And you don't have to deal with any tour latency or anything like that.
1262
01:47:20.680 --> 01:47:22.825
1263
01:47:23.205 --> 01:47:30.040
node itself. Just like to have a great computer with 2 terabytes of internal solid state drive space, run a full node,
1264
01:47:30.600 --> 01:47:41.055
you know, transaction indexing turned on, everything going for it I mean and run on top of it or Sparrow or something else. I mean, the the one the one issue, though, is that you run into,
1265
01:47:42.155 --> 01:47:50.710
1266
01:47:51.250 --> 01:47:53.190
people, people who've been whirlpooling for
1267
01:47:53.570 --> 01:47:55.365
any period of time, really,
1268
01:47:56.385 --> 01:47:57.525
their ex pub
1269
01:47:57.825 --> 01:47:59.925
their Prismix ex pub is gonna be
1270
01:48:00.465 --> 01:48:00.965
lengthy.
1271
01:48:01.450 --> 01:48:04.990
So, like, trying to and I've used Spectre before.
1272
01:48:06.090 --> 01:48:09.150
I'm I'm nowhere near as much of a fan as you are.
1273
01:48:10.335 --> 01:48:10.835
But
1274
01:48:11.295 --> 01:48:16.595
I think that if you're trying to use that's why that's another reason why I know Greg likes,
1275
01:48:17.855 --> 01:48:21.840
likes Electrum server model. Particularly, I know he's a big fan of fulcrum,
1276
01:48:22.140 --> 01:48:22.640
fulcrum,
1277
01:48:23.020 --> 01:48:24.480
which is amazing,
1278
01:48:26.780 --> 01:48:29.679
is because of, like, when you're mixing, those,
1279
01:48:30.764 --> 01:48:32.304
that gets deep.
1280
01:48:33.405 --> 01:48:33.905
And,
1281
01:48:34.684 --> 01:48:40.440
Kordick can probably agree. I can see he said, Whirlpool been around. He said Whirlpool been around since 2015.
1282
01:48:41.780 --> 01:48:48.485
I don't know if Whirlpool was around since 2015. I'd have to ask the guys. Definitely wasn't. Yeah. I was gonna say I thought it was 2019.
1283
01:48:50.145 --> 01:48:50.645
But,
1284
01:48:52.705 --> 01:48:55.205
you know, you you get some deep, deep,
1285
01:48:56.630 --> 01:48:58.010
you know, wallet,
1286
01:48:58.950 --> 01:49:04.810
you know, wallet depth in there. So you if you're trying to sync it up with core, like, that's not gonna work.
1287
01:49:05.745 --> 01:49:09.205
You need some sort of indexer to speed the process up.
1288
01:49:10.580 --> 01:49:12.005
And yeah. So
1289
01:49:13.370 --> 01:49:17.070
I'm I'm not a fan of that. I I like the option of having the
1290
01:49:17.370 --> 01:49:20.330
the Electrum server. If I'm gonna use desktop or if I'm gonna use,
1291
01:49:22.045 --> 01:49:23.264
like, a hardware wallet,
1292
01:49:24.764 --> 01:49:25.264
which
1293
01:49:26.364 --> 01:49:28.065
I don't use anymore, but,
1294
01:49:29.080 --> 01:49:39.405
1295
01:49:40.505 --> 01:49:44.925
1296
01:49:45.625 --> 01:49:49.360
1297
01:49:50.780 --> 01:49:54.480
1298
01:49:56.275 --> 01:49:58.855
yeah, I I think that there's a lot of,
1299
01:49:59.395 --> 01:50:03.175
there's a lot of space and room for improvement everywhere, but, ultimately,
1300
01:50:04.429 --> 01:50:04.929
like,
1301
01:50:05.469 --> 01:50:10.369
you know, that's why that's why I kept saying, like, the focus of of all this is not,
1302
01:50:11.150 --> 01:50:14.005
needs to be directed to your on chain privacy,
1303
01:50:14.625 --> 01:50:16.885
what's giving on chain privacy and what's not.
1304
01:50:18.145 --> 01:50:18.645
And,
1305
01:50:19.745 --> 01:50:26.630
you know, that that's really what this whole thing kinda comes down to. That's why the more frustrated I get, I get frustrated because we're
1306
01:50:27.170 --> 01:50:29.590
you we're we're talking about things that are theater
1307
01:50:32.265 --> 01:50:32.765
that
1308
01:50:33.705 --> 01:50:37.965
that have not been an issue. And, like, could they be? Yes. Should you try to avoid
1309
01:50:38.425 --> 01:50:43.950
using a, someone else's full node? Absolutely. I give talks on that all the time.
1310
01:50:44.650 --> 01:50:48.910
But that doesn't that doesn't mean that someone is stupid or shouldn't be,
1311
01:50:49.885 --> 01:50:54.225
or if they need to, they can't use something or shouldn't be allowed to use something.
1312
01:50:54.844 --> 01:51:05.730
What if what if there. The 2 what if samurai offered 2 services? 1 for people destroying like lights and one for You you must follow Shinobi a lot because, those are that's always his argument.
1313
01:51:06.335 --> 01:51:07.715
Dojo won the pool,
1314
01:51:08.495 --> 01:51:11.315
versus a light white light client pool,
1315
01:51:13.055 --> 01:51:18.390
and there there's no there's no need to do to do that anyways. Right? Because
1316
01:51:18.850 --> 01:51:19.989
they're blinded
1317
01:51:20.290 --> 01:51:20.790
to
1318
01:51:21.255 --> 01:51:25.115
those other people. Right? Just so they can't coordinator's blinded.
1319
01:51:25.735 --> 01:51:28.315
So they're blinded to the dojo and sparrow people.
1320
01:51:29.175 --> 01:51:29.995
And then
1321
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:31.940
you take those out.
1322
01:51:33.440 --> 01:51:34.480
Like, yeah, they're
1323
01:51:35.840 --> 01:51:40.415
potentially, they seem to do stuff. But, like like, why why would you cut out liquidity? You would
1324
01:51:40.795 --> 01:51:46.815
pay the run cut out the You would pay the running a notice if it doesn't work. There would be no point. There'd be no point to mix
1325
01:51:47.430 --> 01:51:48.810
at that point. Like, it
1326
01:51:49.430 --> 01:51:49.930
it's
1327
01:51:52.230 --> 01:51:58.684
I I I I failed to see why people should have separate liquidity pools. I've never seen a good argument for it.
1328
01:52:00.744 --> 01:52:04.025
1329
01:52:04.980 --> 01:52:13.075
if there if you agree I know you agree because you said it multiple times. It's better to do this stuff with samurai running a node than not running a node.
1330
01:52:14.035 --> 01:52:18.295
The the thing that makes it better to run a node and worse to not run a node,
1331
01:52:18.915 --> 01:52:20.055
can cross contaminate.
1332
01:52:20.380 --> 01:52:27.599
I I don't think that's, an invalid assumption, in which case you could separate the two things, and then people using Sparrow and Ronin Dojo
1333
01:52:28.155 --> 01:52:28.655
don't,
1334
01:52:29.195 --> 01:52:31.375
compromise with any of the things that you're
1335
01:52:31.995 --> 01:52:41.220
somewhat hand waving away. And the other service remains that you think is essential, that needs to exist, and which I can actually agree with. So why not do that?
1336
01:52:42.080 --> 01:52:46.505
1337
01:52:47.365 --> 01:52:56.210
Right? Like, why why would you cut why would you cut any amount of liquidity even if it's, you know, a third of it? Right? Why would you cut liquidity from people,
1338
01:52:56.670 --> 01:53:02.290
who are trying to gain the privacy to hide with the crowd, right, that still get backwards privacy and,
1339
01:53:02.975 --> 01:53:03.715
they get,
1340
01:53:04.495 --> 01:53:06.515
backwards anonymity and forward anonymity,
1341
01:53:07.135 --> 01:53:11.715
from participating in a larger pool. Right? Why would you cut that
1342
01:53:12.099 --> 01:53:13.400
and punish people,
1343
01:53:13.860 --> 01:53:14.920
right, who
1344
01:53:15.619 --> 01:53:18.599
need to use the tool? Because that's really what it comes up to.
1345
01:53:19.114 --> 01:53:31.460
1346
01:53:31.840 --> 01:53:32.900
1347
01:53:33.360 --> 01:53:35.139
That's a problem, of course. But,
1348
01:53:35.915 --> 01:53:39.135
your your it doesn't seem consistent because,
1349
01:53:39.594 --> 01:53:43.695
you're saying there's no need to do it because there's no difference in the privacy assumptions.
1350
01:53:44.280 --> 01:53:50.780
So there's no point doing it, and it just lowers liquidity. Obviously, I get the bad part of doing it. It lowers liquidity for both sides, but,
1351
01:53:51.415 --> 01:54:03.030
like, we can't simultaneously say that it's better to use a node than not use a node and that they're exactly the same for their privacy assumptions. Those they they those 2 I never said that they're the same. Like, I
1352
01:54:03.490 --> 01:54:06.630
1353
01:54:06.945 --> 01:54:07.844
you're not gonna
1354
01:54:08.145 --> 01:54:09.364
see it. Right? So
1355
01:54:09.665 --> 01:54:12.804
that and that's that's what this is about. Like, that is what
1356
01:54:13.505 --> 01:54:15.685
it it all comes down to is
1357
01:54:16.400 --> 01:54:17.780
being able to observe transactions
1358
01:54:18.160 --> 01:54:18.660
and
1359
01:54:19.120 --> 01:54:20.580
make deterministic links
1360
01:54:21.040 --> 01:54:22.020
and attach,
1361
01:54:22.800 --> 01:54:24.180
by looking at the blockchain,
1362
01:54:25.055 --> 01:54:25.555
attach,
1363
01:54:26.255 --> 01:54:26.755
identities
1364
01:54:27.135 --> 01:54:27.635
to,
1365
01:54:28.975 --> 01:54:29.795
to UTXOs.
1366
01:54:30.735 --> 01:54:31.950
Right? That
1367
01:54:32.415 --> 01:54:36.650
that's what that's why people use privacy tool. That's why people coin join.
1368
01:54:37.110 --> 01:54:37.610
Right?
1369
01:54:37.990 --> 01:54:38.490
So
1370
01:54:38.950 --> 01:54:40.650
I I don't see the benefit
1371
01:54:41.190 --> 01:54:42.250
of removing,
1372
01:54:44.035 --> 01:54:46.215
of removing that. Right? And
1373
01:54:46.675 --> 01:54:50.775
maybe maybe 1 in a mix. So light light wallet user.
1374
01:54:51.395 --> 01:54:52.375
But just
1375
01:54:52.750 --> 01:54:54.130
1376
01:54:54.910 --> 01:54:56.210
just to be clear here,
1377
01:54:58.110 --> 01:55:05.025
if you're trusting the numbers from Samurais, which is big trust, obviously, there's no way for us to individually verify them.
1378
01:55:07.165 --> 01:55:16.260
They say something like 70%, like, the overwhelming majority of people are using a node other than theirs, whether that's their own node, a friend's node,
1379
01:55:17.120 --> 01:55:26.975
you know, one of those Electrum nodes we mentioned from Sparrow, they're using a node that's not the samurai server. So the so the people using samurai and light mode is maybe
1380
01:55:27.750 --> 01:55:28.570
maybe 30%
1381
01:55:28.949 --> 01:55:32.570
of the anonymity set. So to be clear here, in this situation,
1382
01:55:34.070 --> 01:55:34.570
the
1383
01:55:34.935 --> 01:55:37.995
the people that would be hurt the most from this
1384
01:55:38.455 --> 01:55:40.315
liquidity split would be,
1385
01:55:40.855 --> 01:55:42.395
you know, the less than 30%
1386
01:55:42.855 --> 01:55:43.755
that are using,
1387
01:55:46.040 --> 01:55:53.900
that are that are using samurai server that are not using a different node other than samurai server. It would it would be the live client users who would suffer
1388
01:55:54.335 --> 01:55:55.715
significantly in that situation.
1389
01:55:57.455 --> 01:56:02.675
1390
01:56:03.190 --> 01:56:05.610
potentially contaminating what they're doing. And,
1391
01:56:06.150 --> 01:56:07.910
I mean, you have this, potentially
1392
01:56:08.310 --> 01:56:10.170
1393
01:56:10.585 --> 01:56:13.725
of, like, the catastrophic event that you're referring to.
1394
01:56:14.425 --> 01:56:17.165
1395
01:56:17.510 --> 01:56:25.210
1396
01:56:25.625 --> 01:56:29.165
trying to reveal and go through every single mix in the past
1397
01:56:29.625 --> 01:56:30.525
4 years
1398
01:56:31.545 --> 01:56:32.045
and
1399
01:56:32.560 --> 01:56:36.900
figure out ND and and and try to unmix all that stuff. Right? Like,
1400
01:56:37.840 --> 01:56:44.324
sure. If that happens, it's it's bad. Right? I don't think anyone would would argue that if their server is compromised,
1401
01:56:44.625 --> 01:56:47.445
1402
01:56:48.040 --> 01:56:55.820
I think you both agree that the least amount of the liquidity pool that is using Samurais server, the better.
1403
01:56:57.505 --> 01:57:03.364
1404
01:57:03.960 --> 01:57:09.580
like, you can almost guarantee that everyone that's remixing. So one only 1 of 2, potentially most
1405
01:57:09.960 --> 01:57:11.340
that it could be is 2,
1406
01:57:11.719 --> 01:57:21.680
and any given mix could be a light wallet. And everyone else is gonna be remixing. Remixing are gonna be coming from people that have something running 247, which means that they're
1407
01:57:22.160 --> 01:57:23.620
99% of the time
1408
01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:25.540
going to be a Dojo user.
1409
01:57:25.840 --> 01:57:26.980
Right? So
1410
01:57:27.520 --> 01:57:31.445
yeah. And then you remix again. If you're one of those people that are concerned about,
1411
01:57:33.985 --> 01:57:40.180
about, like, this, like, oh, a light I've mixed with a light wallet person. Like, one, they're not second class citizens, but I digress.
1412
01:57:40.640 --> 01:57:42.820
The the main thing is that you just remix,
1413
01:57:43.280 --> 01:57:43.940
and then,
1414
01:57:45.520 --> 01:57:58.960
and then what's got now your your chances of being with another person that was a light wallet user has now dropped even more. Right? Somewhat 1 third. And the mission maybe I was 1 or 2, continues to to get a smaller number the more that you remix.
1415
01:57:59.340 --> 01:58:00.160
Right? Like,
1416
01:58:02.060 --> 01:58:04.320
remixing it Matt. Avoid those things.
1417
01:58:05.355 --> 01:58:06.815
1418
01:58:07.275 --> 01:58:09.034
on one mate, Matt, about,
1419
01:58:09.515 --> 01:58:13.435
the statistic there about 70% being our node and 30% being,
1420
01:58:14.810 --> 01:58:18.349
1421
01:58:19.210 --> 01:58:23.469
1422
01:58:24.125 --> 01:58:30.465
well or to be optimistic there. I think we all agree that it looks better for samurai if Yeah. I think the number is mostly meaningless,
1423
01:58:31.005 --> 01:58:34.100
1424
01:58:34.480 --> 01:58:35.860
but, yeah, gone. Yeah.
1425
01:58:36.800 --> 01:58:44.685
1426
01:58:45.065 --> 01:58:50.365
using Sparrow or using running Dojo with samurai, I'd be like, this is
1427
01:58:50.870 --> 01:58:56.570
this is just doing more harm than Yeah. I genuinely would think. No. I mean, I agree with that statement.
1428
01:58:56.950 --> 01:58:57.770
1429
01:58:58.310 --> 01:58:58.810
that
1430
01:58:59.725 --> 01:59:01.745
but logic logic wise,
1431
01:59:02.205 --> 01:59:07.985
it it first of all, it go I think it goes to reason that the people that are the majority of liquidity
1432
01:59:08.480 --> 01:59:16.100
liquidity are by people that are using their own new nodes because they're enthusiasts, and they're they care about it, and they're remixing 247.
1433
01:59:17.145 --> 01:59:21.405
So it makes sense to me logically that the majority of liquidity would trend towards
1434
01:59:21.865 --> 01:59:23.565
people that are using their own nodes.
1435
01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:27.500
And then second thing is, ideally, we see more and more
1436
01:59:28.040 --> 01:59:29.099
wallets implement
1437
01:59:30.040 --> 01:59:30.540
Whirlpool
1438
01:59:31.175 --> 01:59:38.395
so that their, you know, their light client users are using whether they're using hand selected Electrum servers like Sparrow or they're using
1439
01:59:40.040 --> 01:59:45.340
a company's node or a friend's node or something like that, it further disperses it out over time.
1440
01:59:47.054 --> 01:59:48.994
1441
01:59:49.614 --> 01:59:59.750
1442
02:00:00.290 --> 02:00:01.429
if any at all.
1443
02:00:01.755 --> 02:00:06.795
And the amount of amount of users that are trusting them when they're in these liquidity pools should
1444
02:00:07.595 --> 02:00:09.535
you want it to be as low as possible.
1445
02:00:10.590 --> 02:00:15.010
1446
02:00:15.389 --> 02:00:37.960
1447
02:00:38.565 --> 02:00:46.824
1448
02:00:47.780 --> 02:00:50.100
1449
02:00:50.660 --> 02:01:01.655
they they have updated their stuff. Have changed since then. Is it they they haven't started a Fresh Wallet since then. Right? But, like, people understand that that's in there. And if you've been in since 2018, you've understood,
1450
02:01:02.369 --> 02:01:12.965
like, what that they've preached and what that they've what they advocate for, right, which is running your own node. Right? People understand the trade offs. People who are using it that are active in the community understand the trade offs.
1451
02:01:13.265 --> 02:01:27.875
1452
02:01:28.575 --> 02:02:06.655
1453
02:02:07.035 --> 02:02:13.840
that. So, like, just keep in mind, like, stuff is designed that way. And once that they've designed it in that in that manner, trying to completely undo,
1454
02:02:14.699 --> 02:02:15.599
this this
1455
02:02:15.900 --> 02:02:21.119
architecture that they've built the wallet on, which has been around since 2,000 I wanna say 15,
1456
02:02:21.864 --> 02:02:23.885
is when the wallet came out. So
1457
02:02:25.065 --> 02:02:29.885
you're trying to trying to hand wave out why why would you design something like that? Well, it was it wasn't 2022.
1458
02:02:30.425 --> 02:02:42.055
You know what I mean? Maybe they would do something different if they started from scratch right now, but they have users. They have people that rely on it, and there's a reasons that they do what they do. Right? There's a reason that it was set up like that, and it was because of,
1459
02:02:42.515 --> 02:02:47.560
the user activated soft fork and people not knowing what to do. The question that was asked, I think Matt posted it
1460
02:02:48.120 --> 02:02:48.360
on,
1461
02:02:49.320 --> 02:02:49.800
on,
1462
02:02:50.120 --> 02:03:00.705
Twitter about, you know, like, hey. Make sure you understand the the node rules and consensus because you can opt in and out. Right? So wallet rules apply to node rules too. If people trust me and you more than they do,
1463
02:03:01.165 --> 02:03:06.225
being able to go in and verify, I mean, like, maybe if there's a user activated software again,
1464
02:03:06.750 --> 02:03:16.855
what if we me, like, running dojo has goes one way, and then start 9 goes another. And but users don't know. They're just like, oh, I'm just gonna run it because, you know, I'm using their stuff. You know?
1465
02:03:17.155 --> 02:03:20.295
Like, it it's the same thing, and they that's exactly why they said
1466
02:03:20.675 --> 02:03:24.775
we're gonna use this model because we didn't wanna u they did not want to use,
1467
02:03:25.680 --> 02:03:37.865
that, oh, just a connect to a random node, the SPV type style. We're gonna connect to a random node where you didn't know what you were gonna get. It's a very important detail to, like, try to leave out during a very important time of Bitcoin.
1468
02:03:38.325 --> 02:03:40.825
Right? Like, that was a a very
1469
02:03:41.429 --> 02:03:52.075
controversial time to be going around and to be a wallet developer during that time, and it's hand waving to now to try to retroactively look at them and, like, oh, well, they should have just done this because I think it's
1470
02:03:52.455 --> 02:03:56.315
better. That's great that you think that, but you haven't done it. You weren't there. And,
1471
02:03:56.855 --> 02:04:04.010
like, we're no developers. We're doing a a totally separate separate thing, and that's why, you know, competition will always be there. But, like,
1472
02:04:04.470 --> 02:04:13.885
we have different visions. I could I could break down all of your stuff as well, but you guys have a choices. You guys have a reasons for why you developed the way you did. I'm trying to explain to you why,
1473
02:04:15.145 --> 02:04:16.925
why their server is set up that way.
1474
02:04:17.225 --> 02:04:29.835
And, again, I guarantee you, if, you know, if the world was perfect, they would have no one running on their server. They could just shut it down. But that's not the reality, and that's not where they're at. That's not how they started.
1475
02:04:30.375 --> 02:04:43.090
They try to support as many people as they can to use Bitcoin and to use Bitcoin privately with, yes, with a caveat that you have to have some sort of trust. It is a a trusted model if you're using a light wallet like it is for any other light wallet. It's trusted.
1476
02:04:43.445 --> 02:04:51.785
1477
02:04:52.219 --> 02:04:52.719
The
1478
02:04:53.020 --> 02:04:54.239
the the prevailing,
1479
02:04:55.739 --> 02:05:00.400
the zeitgeist in the space and the narrative around what's going on with privacy and Bitcoin,
1480
02:05:00.715 --> 02:05:02.095
There is none of this,
1481
02:05:02.635 --> 02:05:08.175
apologetic, it's a trade off, it's a compromise, it's not our renewal, it provides a good thing, maybe.
1482
02:05:09.170 --> 02:05:28.860
That's never what happens in these debates. These debates always turn into you're a spook. You're a government actor because you're telling people that they shouldn't be, I don't wanna say, leaking their xPubs because you don't like that term. But if you're exposing your xPub to a third party and you're engaging in CoinJoints, you might not be getting what you think you're getting. Whenever I try and bring that point up, I get
1483
02:05:29.160 --> 02:05:45.260
piled on by about 2,000 paying ins telling me that I'm a spook. And I'm like, but this is literally true, and it's what you're saying right now. You're tacitly acknowledging that this is not an ideal solution. There's a compromise that comes with it, and you can't ever highlight it because people jump down your throat, and it's not wrong.
1484
02:05:47.960 --> 02:05:48.940
1485
02:05:49.435 --> 02:05:51.775
I don't have anybody calling anybody a spook.
1486
02:05:52.235 --> 02:05:54.715
I think all of that whole fucking thing is very
1487
02:05:56.290 --> 02:06:01.810
there's a particular Twitter person that I'm not gonna say his name, but I hate when people try to just randomly say that,
1488
02:06:02.370 --> 02:06:07.914
because it's generally people trying to say that it's a spook or people that use it are spooks. So,
1489
02:06:08.375 --> 02:06:10.855
I'm not if people are saying that, that's
1490
02:06:11.255 --> 02:06:12.795
I'm not okay with that. But,
1491
02:06:15.250 --> 02:06:19.590
yeah, the when that debate comes up, that argument comes up that
1492
02:06:19.890 --> 02:06:27.075
it's it's typically because someone framed it saying, oh, you have to have Dojo only pulls. Right? Like, your argument the reason I jumped in,
1493
02:06:28.175 --> 02:06:35.570
one, you said it was retarded to use the wallet, and then you continue to double down by saying, like, using it. You don't actually get any privacy. And
1494
02:06:35.870 --> 02:06:36.350
that's
1495
02:06:37.575 --> 02:06:43.275
like, you don't add the caveat, and so your nuances aren't there. Right? Like, you're you're not
1496
02:06:43.575 --> 02:06:47.035
you're not framing your your position in a way that
1497
02:06:47.570 --> 02:06:48.070
is,
1498
02:06:48.610 --> 02:06:51.349
you know, like this. Like, the way I frame it,
1499
02:06:51.730 --> 02:07:06.510
right, is saying, hey. You can get on chain privacy using semi wall. They have great tools. You need to understand that if you don't run a node, look at that when you open up your wallet and you start a new wallet right now. It'll tell you, hey. You are taking a risk by,
1500
02:07:07.050 --> 02:07:12.910
connecting to our server. We have to use your XPUB in order to provide you addresses. You're not gonna be trusting any other,
1501
02:07:13.425 --> 02:07:16.965
nodes but ours, etcetera, etcetera, whatever this specifically says.
1502
02:07:17.344 --> 02:07:18.405
But you need to,
1503
02:07:19.105 --> 02:07:21.445
like, understand that, one, it's it's
1504
02:07:21.780 --> 02:07:24.600
said. It's advocated to run a node. Right?
1505
02:07:25.060 --> 02:07:25.560
And
1506
02:07:26.020 --> 02:07:27.240
if it like, the
1507
02:07:27.620 --> 02:07:29.240
like, they developed all these things,
1508
02:07:29.565 --> 02:07:31.744
right, Dojo included, in order
1509
02:07:32.205 --> 02:07:40.260
to push people towards running their own note, to being more private, to not having to rely on them. Like, that those are all things that they are doing.
1510
02:07:40.639 --> 02:07:41.139
Right?
1511
02:07:41.520 --> 02:07:42.020
And
1512
02:07:42.800 --> 02:07:46.020
that like, that's that's what I'm trying to say is that, like, you're
1513
02:07:46.335 --> 02:07:53.235
continuously trying to double down, and then you get piled on. And you wonder why people pile on you is because it doesn't make sense.
1514
02:07:53.580 --> 02:08:02.320
It doesn't make sense because people look at it from a real person perspective, which is right now, if I didn't have a node and I wanted to coin join
1515
02:08:02.725 --> 02:08:05.465
and then transact, could anyone look at the blockchain
1516
02:08:06.005 --> 02:08:08.505
and say which one's mine? The answer is no.
1517
02:08:08.885 --> 02:08:09.285
So
1518
02:08:09.765 --> 02:08:20.965
Alright. So that's Yeah. And and your argument is saying, like, yes. You get privacy No. But no. I'm not asking that. That's a Like withdrawal. If they got compromised. And so you're like, okay. So but if,
1519
02:08:21.525 --> 02:08:23.385
like, instead of saying but if, like,
1520
02:08:24.085 --> 02:08:34.310
you just stick with the, hey. You know, it's a great service if you have to use you know, if you don't if you can't run a node, like, and you have to use it, it's still better than using other light wallet
1521
02:08:34.770 --> 02:08:35.750
other light wallets,
1522
02:08:36.210 --> 02:08:37.110
which it is.
1523
02:08:38.715 --> 02:08:39.935
So, like,
1524
02:08:40.235 --> 02:08:44.575
if you're gonna trust a node, at least have one that has some privacy to third party,
1525
02:08:45.275 --> 02:08:45.775
actors,
1526
02:08:47.230 --> 02:08:47.869
Like, we
1527
02:08:48.909 --> 02:08:50.610
I mean, that makes sense to me.
1528
02:08:50.989 --> 02:08:55.889
Right? Like, looking at looking at the blockchain, if you can't look at it and just easily be able to tell,
1529
02:08:57.695 --> 02:09:01.315
then you should be using that one. If you're gonna if you have to use a light wallet.
1530
02:09:02.255 --> 02:09:05.700
Right? Like, that's something that you want to ignore. You just have to use a light wallet.
1531
02:09:06.980 --> 02:09:13.480
Understand the trade offs. Understand that, hey. Someone has those goggles that you can see someone if they're invisible or whatever it is that you want to say.
1532
02:09:14.275 --> 02:09:20.535
There are trade offs, and we we lay them out. We've laid them out many times. There's a claim all the time.
1533
02:09:21.070 --> 02:09:30.675
1534
02:09:30.994 --> 02:09:34.454
1535
02:09:34.835 --> 02:09:36.215
I'll pull it up. Jesus.
1536
02:09:37.074 --> 02:09:41.419
1537
02:09:41.834 --> 02:09:44.735
I just wanted to see it. Okay?
1538
02:09:45.375 --> 02:09:45.875
1539
02:09:46.735 --> 02:09:47.795
yeah. I mean,
1540
02:09:48.494 --> 02:09:54.034
I'm gonna try to pull this up while we talk. But, yeah, the my my point remains that
1541
02:09:56.060 --> 02:10:02.080
users users who are using LightWallet are using it because they have to, and they still want to transact privately
1542
02:10:02.540 --> 02:10:13.824
on the chain, and they're going to take that risk. That's fine. And I'm sorry if the warning isn't specific enough for you, which is basically what it this has come down to, is that it's not nuanced enough for you in particular.
1543
02:10:15.170 --> 02:10:21.110
1544
02:10:22.625 --> 02:10:28.065
No. Like, on the first page before you press get started. I I still don't see it. I still don't see whether
1545
02:10:31.330 --> 02:10:37.830
I don't know. The first page says break free of third party custody. Remain in complete control of your wallet at all times. Then you press get started,
1546
02:10:38.745 --> 02:10:39.245
and
1547
02:10:39.625 --> 02:10:41.725
it offers you to choose a backup directory.
1548
02:10:42.265 --> 02:10:53.239
Would you like to enable Tor? I turn it on. Would you like to connect to your own Dojo server? Status not configured. So I'm gonna leave that and just press create new wallet. Then it asked me to make a passphrase.
1549
02:10:54.955 --> 02:11:03.215
And I say, I understand that Stammurai cannot provide assistance in the case of a lost or, you know, my money. It asked me for a PIN now, so I'm putting in my PIN.
1550
02:11:04.460 --> 02:11:04.960
Then,
1551
02:11:05.500 --> 02:11:08.880
it gets me to download my BIP 39 mnemonic.
1552
02:11:09.980 --> 02:11:11.360
Now it shows me the mnemonic,
1553
02:11:11.895 --> 02:11:14.074
and then it tells me my passphrase again.
1554
02:11:14.775 --> 02:11:18.875
And then it says, claim your payment bot and that you're up and running somewhere.
1555
02:11:19.330 --> 02:11:21.270
I don't see actually a warning anywhere.
1556
02:11:26.185 --> 02:11:30.045
Like, I I deeply wanna be wrong about this, so please correct me.
1557
02:11:36.110 --> 02:11:37.570
1558
02:11:43.995 --> 02:11:47.375
1559
02:11:47.755 --> 02:11:49.610
I wish to Christ that,
1560
02:11:50.330 --> 02:11:58.755
XPUB was not called an XPUB. Right? This the last thing you want to be public, apart from your private keys, is your XPUB. Like, this
1561
02:11:59.135 --> 02:12:05.795
is such critical data to keep private, and it's called extended public key, which is just the worst name for it possible.
1562
02:12:08.340 --> 02:12:10.119
1563
02:12:10.420 --> 02:12:11.800
1564
02:12:12.340 --> 02:12:14.199
that that's like a cryptography.
1565
02:12:15.765 --> 02:12:20.345
1566
02:12:21.285 --> 02:12:21.785
Well,
1567
02:12:22.140 --> 02:12:27.280
1568
02:12:28.540 --> 02:12:30.720
What do you call what do we call next button?
1569
02:12:33.594 --> 02:12:35.855
1570
02:12:36.235 --> 02:12:39.215
almost, but that doesn't really It doesn't help that much.
1571
02:12:40.119 --> 02:12:44.780
No. It's not I don't know of a better term. Minero does a decent job with the view key,
1572
02:12:45.239 --> 02:12:47.099
1573
02:12:48.765 --> 02:12:51.585
View key better than Next Pub. I mean, Next Pub's pretty bad.
1574
02:12:52.765 --> 02:12:58.680
1575
02:12:59.140 --> 02:13:01.560
there was, like, talk of bull Bitcoin implementing,
1576
02:13:03.140 --> 02:13:07.534
you know, you would upload an extended public key to the platform, and then your DCA
1577
02:13:07.835 --> 02:13:13.934
would go to a new address every single time. And you can just use BitPay E5 or something like that to generate a unique
1578
02:13:14.635 --> 02:13:15.135
XPUB
1579
02:13:15.889 --> 02:13:16.389
for,
1580
02:13:17.090 --> 02:13:19.030
for each service you use. Right?
1581
02:13:19.489 --> 02:13:30.035
So bull Bitcoin half my xpub, so what? It's a list of addresses that they are gonna know anyway, and I'm never gonna use one of those addresses for anything that isn't bull Bitcoin. So that that to me feels pretty watertight.
1582
02:13:33.430 --> 02:13:35.850
1583
02:13:37.270 --> 02:13:39.370
let's see. Okay. Good. Great.
1584
02:13:40.835 --> 02:13:41.655
So it says,
1585
02:13:43.074 --> 02:13:45.574
similar wallets, unrivaled in transaction privacy,
1586
02:13:46.034 --> 02:13:57.825
but the default configuration is still subject to network level privacy loss. So Singer and Dojo allows you to simply bypass our default servers and circumvent these concerns. Simple. A default center of our wallet will connect to our centrally
1587
02:13:58.285 --> 02:14:01.745
controlled dojo host in Iceland. We do not store logs of IP addresses,
1588
02:14:02.125 --> 02:14:05.105
but you have to take our word for it. By hosting your own dojo
1589
02:14:05.520 --> 02:14:08.179
wallet server, you can bypass our servers and completely,
1590
02:14:08.960 --> 02:14:12.260
service completely when using SamRite Wallet or Sentinel.
1591
02:14:13.520 --> 02:14:15.725
1592
02:14:17.385 --> 02:14:17.885
1593
02:14:19.865 --> 02:14:20.845
if it's not
1594
02:14:21.360 --> 02:14:27.220
the I remember I know I've seen it in the wallet, and I don't have the means to start up a new wallet this second.
1595
02:14:28.160 --> 02:14:29.300
But if it's,
1596
02:14:29.745 --> 02:14:33.685
you know, if it's not in there, I know that it's something that's been brought up. So,
1597
02:14:39.140 --> 02:14:39.640
Ultimately,
1598
02:14:40.580 --> 02:14:41.800
I do know that
1599
02:14:43.140 --> 02:14:46.760
that what's it called? The whole Where is it in website? Sorry.
1600
02:14:47.220 --> 02:14:48.600
I'll post it in the chat.
1601
02:14:49.925 --> 02:14:50.425
1602
02:14:53.364 --> 02:14:55.945
1603
02:14:56.250 --> 02:14:56.989
brought up,
1604
02:14:57.369 --> 02:14:57.869
communicated,
1605
02:14:58.730 --> 02:15:06.655
or easy to you know, if you go on whether it's their Telegram, you go on Twitter, you search any of that stuff, you're going you're gonna
1606
02:15:07.195 --> 02:15:14.735
find tons and tons of responses, tons and tons of, like, openness about it. If you look back to when they first hosted Dojo or first released Whirlpool,
1607
02:15:16.000 --> 02:15:18.420
Like, I even remember when Whirlpool was first,
1608
02:15:19.920 --> 02:15:27.784
released. Dojo hadn't been released yet, if I recall, and everyone was saying don't. So, like, a bunch of people were saying, like, don't do it until you get,
1609
02:15:28.804 --> 02:15:42.800
until you get Dojo running and and do it with Dojo. And saying, well, I will never know. Like, yeah. And and the best practice was to start a fresh wallet. So if you start on Sami Wallet and then you oh, Sami Wallet server and you got Dojo running,
1610
02:15:43.135 --> 02:15:46.675
you know, don't just, like, recover your wallet. Right? You want to
1611
02:15:47.055 --> 02:15:48.115
come back and,
1612
02:15:49.055 --> 02:15:51.235
start a fresh wallet and move your funds over.
1613
02:15:52.740 --> 02:15:55.560
It's the the practice has been part
1614
02:15:56.260 --> 02:16:01.960
of the samurai culture. Like, running a dojo has been part of the samurai culture for as long as dojo's been around.
1615
02:16:02.745 --> 02:16:19.520
1616
02:16:20.005 --> 02:16:21.864
1617
02:16:22.405 --> 02:16:26.025
that it should be it should be very clear to the user on startup,
1618
02:16:27.780 --> 02:16:30.760
the risks of of not using their own node.
1619
02:16:31.540 --> 02:16:32.840
1620
02:16:33.141 --> 02:16:43.284
my my only issue isn't with having, like, a warning or whatever. Right? Like, I think that's fine. But as you've already said, Sunrise is the only one that even has any sort of, like,
1621
02:16:44.225 --> 02:16:48.180
description of what's going on. They're the only ones that have done anything that that, like,
1622
02:16:49.120 --> 02:16:55.075
talks about what to do with your stuff. Like, these prompts that are are there, even the ones that you're saying, or stuff that's not in any of the other walls.
1623
02:16:55.795 --> 02:17:37.835
It's our so, like, I get frustrated because, like, yes, I I would love everything to be perfect. But, like, then when you start to talk about, like, appealing to all these different things. Because right now, it's like, oh, well, you know, like, like, the saying having the warning is, like, okay. Cool. You passed the check mark. Then what then what happens? Oh, well, that's I can't believe that's all they have is a thing. They shouldn't even allow people to use the use Ceramic Wallet with their server. It's it's always a goalpost. I'm not saying you're saying it. Just I just think these tools have clear, like, warnings of trade offs at start ups so that I don't have to have a separate 2 hour and 15 minute conversation on a podcast about them. Instead, they could just be at start up.
1624
02:17:38.181 --> 02:17:45.895
1625
02:17:46.935 --> 02:18:02.775
1626
02:18:03.655 --> 02:18:05.516
you know, this is not me trying to,
1627
02:18:06.455 --> 02:18:08.636
extend an olive branch or to be needlessly,
1628
02:18:10.136 --> 02:18:10.636
accusing.
1629
02:18:11.360 --> 02:18:17.460
I I think there is a concerted effort in the space to mock people that bring this concern to it and,
1630
02:18:18.080 --> 02:18:34.779
detract and deflect and accuse, you know, make ad hominem arguments and things like that. And then to learn that there's a warning right there in the wallet when you install it, It's on the website. I'm like, okay. Great. And it just turns out there isn't really. Like, there should be an The reason that the reason that,
1631
02:18:35.485 --> 02:18:40.064
1632
02:18:40.365 --> 02:18:45.220
right, like, this this whole thing is because of, like it's like a
1633
02:18:45.619 --> 02:19:02.199
again, it's a simple white knighting of, like, everything. It's like, oh, man. Well, like, it's not good enough. It's never good enough. This is never good enough. And it's continuously doing that instead of being like, oh, wow. Like, SemaRock actually does make all the best tools. SemaRock Wild does have the have the best coin joint. SemaRock does have the best post mix tools. Samurai does have,
1634
02:19:02.500 --> 02:19:08.760
they're the only ones until Sparrow came along. The only one with Panem's. Right? They're the only ones that are actually doing something to try to further,
1635
02:19:09.140 --> 02:19:13.675
Bitcoin's privacy. But people wanna sit here and just be like, oh, well, I can't believe they would do that without
1636
02:19:14.055 --> 02:19:30.185
x warning or b warning or whatever it is. Like, I'm all for it. Like, I want I want warnings. I want that stuff. But when it comes down to it, we're like Me too. When it comes down to it, like, people are just like it's it's never gonna be good enough. So what happens is there, yeah, there are a lot of loyal people
1637
02:19:30.485 --> 02:19:31.625
who are hardcore
1638
02:19:32.165 --> 02:19:32.985
samurai people,
1639
02:19:33.445 --> 02:19:46.930
and they're they stand up for their wallet because they see it all the time. Just get constantly dunked on or walked over or people attacking their stuff for no reason, right, or for a reason of, like, what the developers chose to do with their wallet.
1640
02:19:47.365 --> 02:20:02.490
Like, well, guess what? Users are still using it. Like, just No. I think despite all this. Because users do know. People who are Ronin users, people who are Dojo users know this trade off. Right? And that's why that they're Dojo users, they're doing that for the right reason. Right? But
1641
02:20:02.870 --> 02:20:11.976
if we're talking about the the reality, the reality is that, like, all this stuff is already known. It's known. And, like, as a new user, could it be a a perfect onboard?
1642
02:20:12.516 --> 02:20:15.640
Sure. I'll put in a feature request, but, like, ultimately,
1643
02:20:16.180 --> 02:20:30.814
it's the people don't we we start to to push back because we hear so much nonsense and people sitting here saying, like, cheering on Wasabi and saying that, like, oh, it's so great and whatever. But yet they work with coin join, chain analysis,
1644
02:20:31.340 --> 02:20:37.199
and they were they blacklist people. In what world is not everyone saying, like, okay. Like,
1645
02:20:38.140 --> 02:20:39.119
we need to reevaluate.
1646
02:20:39.739 --> 02:20:48.785
Let's at least, like I I see the trade off. I'll run run I'll run Dojo, run and whatever, and I'll use I'll use Samurai and Woolfolk because I know that they're not working with,
1647
02:20:49.670 --> 02:20:56.810
chain analysis. But, yeah, people are still sitting out and telling me that Wasabi is better because because that's ultimately what
1648
02:20:57.190 --> 02:21:02.235
this is is that you've already said it. You're impartial towards mobile wallets. You don't like mobile wallets.
1649
02:21:02.615 --> 02:21:27.779
And so, yeah, there's easy you could pick at anything in a mobile wallet versus a a desktop wallet. Right? But, like, the reality is that people need mobile wallets so they can transact in the streets. They can transact wherever they need to. So Yeah. This is my overall, like, assessment of your position on it. I think it's naive because we know that wasabi Wallet works with chain analysis, and you're saying we know that samurai don't. And I'm saying, how do you know that?
1650
02:21:28.720 --> 02:21:34.979
What indicate okay. So tell me this. We have one that specifically told us. Right? What indications do you have that
1651
02:21:35.716 --> 02:21:36.535
points to,
1652
02:21:37.716 --> 02:21:48.020
1653
02:21:48.880 --> 02:21:55.755
1654
02:21:56.135 --> 02:21:57.275
you know, dotexe
1655
02:21:57.815 --> 02:22:13.064
files and closed source binary that Satoshi run writes for us and releases on a website because we trust him and then go, what indication do we have that Satoshi is compromised? Like, obviously, we don't we want to minimize trust. Like, that we should be on the same team with that, and I don't get why we're not.
1656
02:22:14.564 --> 02:22:19.465
1657
02:22:20.890 --> 02:22:32.305
1658
02:22:32.845 --> 02:22:41.090
1659
02:22:42.029 --> 02:22:43.330
Right? So it's important
1660
02:22:43.775 --> 02:22:49.875
if you know that one is working with chain analysis. And if you don't know if the other is or is not, having some sort of indication
1661
02:22:50.655 --> 02:22:51.716
is probably important.
1662
02:22:52.510 --> 02:22:58.050
And I I would I would argue that if you're going to Do you look at the same one that's not say that somebody
1663
02:22:58.510 --> 02:23:08.595
1664
02:23:08.960 --> 02:23:10.739
1665
02:23:11.840 --> 02:23:12.500
1666
02:23:12.880 --> 02:23:17.300
that one openly works with chain analysis and one either doesn't work with chain analysis
1667
02:23:17.605 --> 02:23:29.620
1668
02:23:30.240 --> 02:23:31.300
you would need what?
1669
02:23:31.920 --> 02:23:37.165
You need some sort of information, or they would need to be able they would want what more x pubs.
1670
02:23:37.545 --> 02:23:43.085
Right? That's what they would want because I could just give that over. So if you don't see that Yeah.
1671
02:23:44.490 --> 02:23:47.950
If if you're not seeing more users being pushed towards,
1672
02:23:48.730 --> 02:23:52.030
samurai server, right, or if you're not seeing,
1673
02:23:52.705 --> 02:23:59.205
you know, whatever it like, you're not seeing it. Right? You're not seeing the trend towards more expoaks being captured.
1674
02:23:59.840 --> 02:24:03.220
I don't see how you could sit there. Like, more development is happening
1675
02:24:03.680 --> 02:24:04.180
towards,
1676
02:24:05.840 --> 02:24:07.939
towards the node side of it
1677
02:24:08.315 --> 02:24:29.375
than there is versus Wasabi, which is openly blacklisting. Their coordinator is openly blacklisting. You have one that is blind using Tor changing addresses and never have to see the other side of it. They worked with another wallet to implement. The other wallet worked with them, but Sparrow implements it so that there is, a whole liquidity pool that cannot be done by that. If Standard Wallet wanted
1678
02:24:30.635 --> 02:24:35.694
to farm out these XPubs, when they say that we don't want them so that we have a higher,
1679
02:24:36.409 --> 02:24:42.909
a higher rate of light wallet users so we could give that information to Chainalysis, wouldn't that make more sense?
1680
02:24:43.485 --> 02:24:47.186
They would want they would want less help. They would want more people to be mixing with LightWallet.
1681
02:24:47.645 --> 02:24:48.145
Correct?
1682
02:24:50.846 --> 02:24:53.186
1683
02:24:53.630 --> 02:24:56.850
1684
02:24:57.550 --> 02:24:58.689
was working with Chainalysis,
1685
02:24:59.790 --> 02:25:02.050
they would want to limit the amount of people
1686
02:25:02.565 --> 02:25:10.105
that no. They wouldn't want Sparrow to implement it. Right? Because they they would have no xpubs, and they would want more light wallet users because they have their xpubs.
1687
02:25:10.806 --> 02:25:11.306
So
1688
02:25:12.510 --> 02:25:13.010
if
1689
02:25:13.630 --> 02:25:24.545
1690
02:25:25.645 --> 02:25:34.211
I mean One of them yeah. Look. There's incentive for samurai to not wanna betray their users, and there's incentives for them to want to betray their users. Like, they all exist.
1691
02:25:35.391 --> 02:25:35.891
1692
02:25:37.150 --> 02:25:38.290
Yeah. I mean,
1693
02:25:39.936 --> 02:25:42.436
I don't I, like, I I don't know how to,
1694
02:25:43.455 --> 02:25:47.075
how to argue against, like like, actual incentives
1695
02:25:50.770 --> 02:25:55.189
because, like, I've I just laid out the incentives, and you said, like, it doesn't matter. So,
1696
02:25:55.835 --> 02:26:04.895
1697
02:26:05.290 --> 02:26:08.750
that the server is compromised or acting malicious,
1698
02:26:09.850 --> 02:26:16.045
and users should be aware of that and that trust model if they're gonna use it. I mean, I I recommend
1699
02:26:16.425 --> 02:26:16.925
molvad.net
1700
02:26:17.545 --> 02:26:21.325
for VPN usage, and one of the reasons is because they're very clear
1701
02:26:21.870 --> 02:26:25.490
that they say they don't take logs, but there's no way for you to verify it.
1702
02:26:26.590 --> 02:26:32.605
Right. But I I just wanna be clear here because I said this earlier, and I was incorrect.
1703
02:26:33.945 --> 02:26:39.165
Both me and Zelko said it. I spun up a new samurai wallet. It does not warn you,
1704
02:26:40.489 --> 02:26:46.109
of the risks of using their server. I I mean, I personally would like to see a clear warning there.
1705
02:26:46.890 --> 02:26:50.955
It does give you the option to immediately connect to Dojo, like, first thing,
1706
02:26:51.415 --> 02:26:54.234
but it doesn't say, like, what that benefit would be.
1707
02:26:55.175 --> 02:26:59.601
It's like a simple text, you know, use this so you don't have to trust us.
1708
02:27:00.860 --> 02:27:03.980
1709
02:27:04.625 --> 02:27:12.485
1710
02:27:13.110 --> 02:27:29.415
1711
02:27:30.750 --> 02:27:33.810
1712
02:27:34.430 --> 02:27:35.649
you know, we
1713
02:27:36.830 --> 02:27:51.579
commute like, samurai community has been doing this for so long, and it's just like it's funny that it's like, oh, well, in order to get my stamp of approval, it needs this thing. And it's it's okay. Like, that's sure. Like, that's fine. And, you know, like,
1714
02:27:51.880 --> 02:27:54.140
you might waste some of the the you
1715
02:27:54.600 --> 02:27:56.859
know, like, maybe that's something I'd put in. But,
1716
02:27:57.875 --> 02:28:04.855
you know, like, it doesn't like, you may seem like, oh, this like, everything else is fine. And so your your stance on everything else
1717
02:28:05.475 --> 02:28:05.975
like,
1718
02:28:07.141 --> 02:28:11.801
your initial point, your initial statement wasn't about a warning. Your initial statement was about,
1719
02:28:13.061 --> 02:28:13.721
you know,
1720
02:28:14.235 --> 02:28:16.095
if you use these tools without,
1721
02:28:18.795 --> 02:28:19.375
you know,
1722
02:28:19.835 --> 02:28:23.215
without Dojo, it's useless or it's a larp, and
1723
02:28:23.700 --> 02:28:26.760
that was what I was upset about. That's what I think is absurd.
1724
02:28:27.140 --> 02:28:27.640
So,
1725
02:28:28.580 --> 02:28:32.600
like, you you haven't been able to debunk anything other than saying, like, well,
1726
02:28:33.165 --> 02:28:35.505
yeah, it works until their their,
1727
02:28:35.965 --> 02:28:36.944
server's compromised.
1728
02:28:37.645 --> 02:28:41.665
Okay. Well, until someone gets arrested, you can let me know. But,
1729
02:28:44.110 --> 02:28:48.450
yeah. Yeah. Chips Ahoy because they're very clear about it on the website and in general.
1730
02:28:49.311 --> 02:28:53.735
1731
02:28:54.355 --> 02:29:02.720
Yeah. We talked about it all. Yeah. I just personally would like to see more wallets in general do that, and I know I know in an open source
1732
02:29:03.100 --> 02:29:03.600
situation,
1733
02:29:04.060 --> 02:29:09.200
anyone can fork it and add that warning label. They don't wanna add it, and I I respect that.
1734
02:29:09.795 --> 02:29:16.854
But I personally would just like to see warning labels on I would trade offs explained to people on start ups so they don't need separate education.
1735
02:29:17.520 --> 02:29:22.580
1736
02:29:23.120 --> 02:29:31.955
obviously, all wallets, but, like, it'd be good for the big heavy hitter ones to have stuff like that. Yeah. Like, boot up ledger live. When you boot up ledger live, it should tell you
1737
02:29:32.311 --> 02:30:04.444
1738
02:30:04.990 --> 02:30:05.150
1739
02:30:06.430 --> 02:30:18.056
like, that's see, like, that's that's the line that that we're talking. I wanna know. We keep saying, like, you you you not could have privacy if you if you use our server. No one's gonna put that because it's not that is not the situation.
1740
02:30:18.436 --> 02:30:33.215
That's not that's not the case. Like, it's don't use our, you know, don't use our server so that you can maintain optimal privacy or whatever it is. Like, you know, that's that is a very different statement than you saying that you won't have privacy if you use,
1741
02:30:33.835 --> 02:30:36.815
if you opt to not run Dojo. Right? So, like,
1742
02:30:38.170 --> 02:30:45.069
you you have to, like, understand the difference of what, like, what you're trying to to articulate because they're 2 different things.
1743
02:30:45.555 --> 02:31:13.449
1744
02:31:13.750 --> 02:31:28.780
And so we wanna look out for the signs of that, and we wanna minimize the mechanisms by which we can hurt ourselves by using it. Like, if wasabi team is all FBI agents, I don't care because they don't get any data that actually hurts me. They just do something I find politically
1745
02:31:29.240 --> 02:31:29.740
disagreeable,
1746
02:31:30.200 --> 02:31:34.700
but it doesn't change what their actual software does. No. Their software just works. So at all.
1747
02:31:35.385 --> 02:31:39.885
1748
02:31:41.465 --> 02:31:44.870
But, like, it doesn't it doesn't change the fact that, like, your
1749
02:31:45.250 --> 02:31:51.590
users that need it now, like, we're, like we can talk about the future. You can talk about improvement, all that stuff.
1750
02:31:52.096 --> 02:31:52.596
Sure.
1751
02:31:53.056 --> 02:31:53.556
But
1752
02:31:53.936 --> 02:31:55.395
telling users right now,
1753
02:31:55.936 --> 02:32:02.431
don't use it or it's harmful to use it is wrong. That's not correct. You've not yet proven.
1754
02:32:02.971 --> 02:32:08.511
I want I'm not gonna end the debate with you trying to say that there's harm in users for using Whirlpool,
1755
02:32:09.205 --> 02:32:10.345
on a light wallet
1756
02:32:11.285 --> 02:32:15.064
when they if that's what they need to do. Right? Like,
1757
02:32:15.524 --> 02:32:24.750
if they need a light wallet, they could they can use it. They can break deterministic links, spend, move on. And that's harmful if assumptions are wrong.
1758
02:32:25.370 --> 02:32:25.870
What?
1759
02:32:27.135 --> 02:32:32.995
1760
02:32:34.095 --> 02:32:36.354
1761
02:32:36.700 --> 02:32:50.725
and they've already been explained all this stuff. So explain to me how because this this is this is, like, the point that I'm I'm getting at. Because you gotta look at like like, you're talking about in this idea that they're working, and it's fine. I get it. Like, we need to have,
1762
02:32:51.904 --> 02:32:54.645
you know, adversarial thinking, and that's fine.
1763
02:32:55.030 --> 02:33:04.485
If they are they they can treat them. They can take care of themselves and figure out, hey. Do I is my adversary a samurai, or is my adversary,
1764
02:33:05.585 --> 02:33:08.785
you know, chain analysis or third party? Because, like, that's
1765
02:33:09.410 --> 02:33:17.030
it's typically the state, and it's typically gonna be law enforcement if they're really concerned about whatever it is. So if they're concerned about it
1766
02:33:17.516 --> 02:33:21.775
and they can't run a node or they are choosing not to run a node for whatever reason,
1767
02:33:22.875 --> 02:33:24.895
they can still have on chain privacy.
1768
02:33:25.460 --> 02:33:35.035
1769
02:33:35.415 --> 02:33:38.155
that it's better to use Dojo than you use.
1770
02:33:39.335 --> 02:33:43.436
1771
02:33:43.780 --> 02:33:44.600
with a straight
1772
02:33:45.940 --> 02:33:46.920
whatever wallet,
1773
02:33:47.540 --> 02:33:51.240
right, that uses normal Bitcoin transactions. It's better
1774
02:33:51.665 --> 02:33:55.845
to use a light wallet to mix, break the term and stick links on the chain,
1775
02:33:56.705 --> 02:33:58.485
and take a small risk.
1776
02:33:59.080 --> 02:34:05.819
1777
02:34:06.359 --> 02:34:06.859
1778
02:34:07.239 --> 02:34:08.540
It's better than
1779
02:34:09.145 --> 02:34:13.965
1780
02:34:16.070 --> 02:34:18.170
1781
02:34:18.630 --> 02:34:25.130
1782
02:34:26.335 --> 02:34:29.235
1783
02:34:30.815 --> 02:34:33.475
And that's just because that's just your implication of the warning?
1784
02:34:35.130 --> 02:34:35.630
1785
02:34:36.090 --> 02:34:42.189
Yes. The warning should make it clear that they are different. Yes. But you you are putting out that the the warning
1786
02:34:42.490 --> 02:34:43.470
1787
02:34:43.905 --> 02:34:45.845
something along the lines of,
1788
02:34:46.385 --> 02:34:47.045
you know,
1789
02:34:47.425 --> 02:34:52.564
your your data is compromised or your point your privacy is compromised, and it's not compromised.
1790
02:34:53.440 --> 02:34:56.180
Once there is there is a chance of whatever,
1791
02:34:56.720 --> 02:35:04.975
you know, there is a chance that could happen, but, like, you're trying to make this assumption that it is right now that you're that moving forward, you have no,
1792
02:35:06.154 --> 02:35:07.295
that you have no privacy.
1793
02:35:07.914 --> 02:35:11.055
It's like, well, if I need privacy from
1794
02:35:11.530 --> 02:35:12.110
my employer,
1795
02:35:13.210 --> 02:35:14.270
like Matt said,
1796
02:35:15.290 --> 02:35:20.830
yeah. You have do you have to private transactional privacy from your employer? You have the privacy.
1797
02:35:21.436 --> 02:35:25.936
It depends on who your privacy who you're trying your privacy from. So, like,
1798
02:35:26.315 --> 02:35:30.575
that's that's a delineation I'm trying to make with you that you you're still unwilling to accept,
1799
02:35:31.739 --> 02:35:36.640
1800
02:35:37.020 --> 02:35:52.310
where using just the light client You are. Doesn't create a threat model to having not used it at all. Okay? I'm not I also won't concede, though, that that is strictly better than just operating publicly on base chain. I'm trying to say that we definitely
1801
02:35:52.610 --> 02:35:54.390
have obviously over and over agreed
1802
02:35:54.930 --> 02:35:57.270
on the fact that using Ronin Dojo
1803
02:35:58.005 --> 02:36:01.465
with the samurai wallet instead of using it as a light client
1804
02:36:01.845 --> 02:36:07.670
is better. The fact that it is better and that you agree with that means we can make a statement that tells people
1805
02:36:16.185 --> 02:36:19.645
1806
02:36:20.505 --> 02:36:23.404
What I'm gathering the statement. Is it Yeah. Best case,
1807
02:36:23.784 --> 02:36:25.645
use Dojo, use Turn Dojo
1808
02:36:25.960 --> 02:36:26.460
better.
1809
02:36:27.560 --> 02:36:30.220
Like, take the assumption. Right? Take the risk.
1810
02:36:30.600 --> 02:36:31.340
And then,
1811
02:36:31.880 --> 02:36:35.705
like, the worst case scenario, use, like, Wasabi or something. Right?
1812
02:36:38.025 --> 02:36:40.605
I'm just kidding. That was a joke. I'm just kidding. Realistic.
1813
02:36:41.145 --> 02:36:48.659
Yeah. No. I'm just like I think I think we've talked in circles that so much that it's kind of, like, pointless to this point just because,
1814
02:36:49.939 --> 02:36:53.159
it's very, like, nuanced of what we're talking about.
1815
02:36:54.295 --> 02:36:54.795
And,
1816
02:36:55.255 --> 02:36:56.395
like, the
1817
02:36:57.015 --> 02:36:57.755
the debate
1818
02:36:58.935 --> 02:36:59.435
like,
1819
02:37:00.295 --> 02:37:03.354
I I was heated when I when I started this whole thing because,
1820
02:37:04.200 --> 02:37:08.460
you know, if I look through the the tweet thread, it's like, oh, more like,
1821
02:37:09.400 --> 02:37:18.125
you know, samurai is fed or samurai is this and blah blah blah blah blah. And it's like, I'm I, like, can't help but get heated. Right? And
1822
02:37:19.386 --> 02:37:24.120
we we start to debate, and I'm making these points. And, like, we're just talking circles because
1823
02:37:24.660 --> 02:37:26.920
you you're operating in a very high
1824
02:37:27.380 --> 02:37:27.880
adversarial
1825
02:37:28.420 --> 02:37:30.920
mindset versus, like, a normal person mindset,
1826
02:37:31.695 --> 02:37:37.475
which is fine. There is a level that that we should have. Like, we we should have people who think adversarially.
1827
02:37:37.854 --> 02:37:41.075
I'm okay with that. Right? But I'm not okay with
1828
02:37:41.601 --> 02:37:42.900
not being able to accept
1829
02:37:43.280 --> 02:37:52.085
that there is adversarial thinking, and then there is, like, okay, the reality of, like, there are normal people who need to use this normally. Right?
1830
02:37:52.465 --> 02:37:55.125
And so you you have to be able to step back sometimes,
1831
02:37:55.505 --> 02:37:58.325
right, and think a little less adversarial
1832
02:37:58.851 --> 02:38:05.110
to be able to, like, understand why something is the way it is. Right? Like, normal people need to to
1833
02:38:05.490 --> 02:38:07.910
operate this like, might need to operate this way.
1834
02:38:08.365 --> 02:38:11.665
And so Yeah. And that's why if if, like
1835
02:38:12.285 --> 02:38:20.090
because your your whole, like, argument is is about this. It's literally about a is adversarial thinking. That's fine. Yeah.
1836
02:38:20.470 --> 02:38:21.689
1837
02:38:22.229 --> 02:38:23.449
as opposed to optimization.
1838
02:38:23.750 --> 02:38:28.385
1839
02:38:28.765 --> 02:38:30.385
Dojo. Right? Cool.
1840
02:38:30.925 --> 02:38:34.225
There's there is an option for people who are not adversarial,
1841
02:38:34.530 --> 02:38:37.190
care, or they are not adversarial against,
1842
02:38:39.011 --> 02:38:39.511
against
1843
02:38:39.891 --> 02:38:41.730
Sam Roth Wallet. So that's
1844
02:38:43.035 --> 02:38:46.255
I I think that we can agree on on,
1845
02:38:47.515 --> 02:38:51.615
like, where your mindset is and why it differentiates from everyday people.
1846
02:38:53.101 --> 02:38:57.761
But, yeah, I kinda agree with the some of the people on the chat. Like, is this still going?
1847
02:38:58.780 --> 02:39:04.655
Yep. It's because we we have been calling in circles for a long time, and that's why I'm, like, trying not to bash my face into my keyboard right
1848
02:39:06.476 --> 02:39:07.755
now. Yeah. That's
1849
02:39:08.315 --> 02:39:11.136
I don't I don't think there's much else that I have to add. Matt?
1850
02:39:11.640 --> 02:39:13.500
1851
02:39:13.960 --> 02:39:16.859
mechanic, you wanna wrap us up with some final thoughts, and then,
1852
02:39:17.399 --> 02:39:20.540
well well, then this bad boy, we've been gone for 2 hours and 40 minutes.
1853
02:39:20.855 --> 02:39:21.355
Jesus.
1854
02:39:21.815 --> 02:39:29.035