June 26, 2022
CD68: a sunday afternoon chat with @clarkmoody
EPISODE: 68
BLOCK: 742458
PRICE: 4704 sats per dollar
TOPICS: the clark moody dashboard, interstellar bitcoin, block propagation, KYC, fedimints, hard forks, fungibility
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03:12 - Introduction and conversation with Clark Moody
05:40 - Discussion on Bitcoin privacy and lightning network
08:19 - Conversation on Bitcoin in space
18:19 - Importance of low latency in block propagation
26:00 - Possibility of successful hard forks in Bitcoin
32:45 - Discussion on future hard forks and changes in Bitcoin
35:08 - Fungibility of Bitcoin and the need for cross input signature aggregation
38:39 - Concerns about KYC encroachment and the importance of self custody
40:05 - Bitcoin's focus on code vs. external pressures
41:13 - Lightning-enabled point of sale as a game changer
44:08 - Different levels of privacy in Bitcoin
48:13 - Trade-offs in Bitcoin wallets and custody
50:19 - Federated Chaumian Mints and improved custodial lightning wallets
54:35 - Staying strong as Bitcoiners
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:25:01 PM
Duration: 3379.827
Channels: 1
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Happy Bitcoin
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Sunday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel dispatch.
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I am very excited for this conversation. We got Clark Moody in the house before we get there.
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Just a huge shout out as always to the to the rider dive freaks who continue to support the show and keep it ad free, sponsor free, and purely focused
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on actual discussion. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps.
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Fountain Podcasts
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and Breeze Wallet are my favorite.
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You simply
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load up,
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your app
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with some sats, with some Bitcoin. Choose how many sats,
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per minute are you think this content is worth to you. And then from there, it'll just stream automatically to my note.
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Through podcasting 2.0, you can also do something called boostograms.
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That's when you send a specific amount of stats,
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to support the show, and you can include a message with that. Pretty cool. You end up with this comment system,
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that has value attached to it that is readable on all podcasting 2 point o apps.
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As always,
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the top 4
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boostograms
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from the previous,
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episode will be read on air. We have Chad Farrow who gave 33,000
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sats 33,333
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sats,
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and provided no message. I appreciate you, Chad. We have Eric Rome who provided 25,000
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sats to support the show. He said thank you to Slim for providing
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sound information relating to cattle deaths. So useful. I'm now looking into the beef initiative.
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We have poor Ben Gunn who provided 5,000 sats without a message. Shout out to Ben. Your support means a lot to me. I have a lot of respect for that dude. Great dude. And we have Nomad Joe with 3,000 sats saying thanks for Bitcoin Thursday and interviewing Texas Slim.
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There's a bunch of other boostograms here,
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at lower amounts. You can view them in your favorite podcasting 2.0 app at your leisure.
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I also want to say that if you cannot part with Sats currently,
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you can also support the show by simply
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searching Ciel dispatch in your favorite podcasting app
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and clicking the subscribe button, potentially leaving a good review. It really does help. So thank you all.
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Also, while we're here,
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a reminder that you can join the live chat both via Twitch. That's twitch.tv
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/cildispatch
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or via our matrix chat. Our matrix chat is
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just constant awesome discussion all throughout the week. You can get the link to that at sill dispatch.com.
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So with all that said, we do have a very tight time window here.
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Clark is simply passing through and, has dedicated some time. We're gonna be about 45 minutes
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here, to chat with us all, and very grateful for that. How's it going, Clark?
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It is fantastic to be here on Citadel Dispatch.
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Welcome to the new studio. What do you think?
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There we go. It's amazing. Got my LaCroix.
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We've got the hospitality going.
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It's great. The studio is excellent.
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It's quiet.
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Beautiful. The soundproofing is insane. Soundproofing is, wonderful. I'm actually jealous. It makes you A lot jealous. Yeah. I feel like you can hear your thoughts in your head way more. Yeah. It gets Perfect. For better or for worse. You know? So, Clark,
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I think you're most famous for your dashboard,
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Clark Moody dashboard.
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What was the what was the
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thought process behind releasing that in the first place?
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If you remember back to the fork wars,
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we had lots of
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stats people were looking at
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user agents, people were typing in for their, UASF
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nodes,
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block signaling from the miners, all that sort of stuff going on.
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And
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you were looking at 4 or 5 different websites at a time Right. Just to see one number.
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So I'm going to
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what was it? Fork.lol
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or whatever, like, old school, all these things, and you're looking for one number. Okay. What's the percentage of notes here? What's the percentage of signaling there?
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And I was thinking, well,
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it would be really nice to have all those numbers in one place with no frills,
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just the numbers, just a big wall of numbers.
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And so that was the idea. I don't wanna have to go to all these different sites. And, like, 6 different tabs open. Yeah. All these tabs. You know? I don't wanna have to go all those different sites. I just want it all in one place.
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Super clean, completely donation based,
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proud supporter of your dashboard.
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What is the website? It's is it clarkmudi.com?
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Bitcoin.clarkmoodi.com
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/dashboard. I just put cl in my browser now and just automatically just fills it out. Sure. If you just search for Clark Moody dashboard.
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Yeah.
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Awesome. I also just wanted to do a quick shout out to you. Your donation page is one of the cleanest donation pages in the space. I feel like you don't get enough credit for it.
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The finest donation experience in business.
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Anyway, freaks, if if you appreciate his dashboard, consider going and supporting it.
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So, Clark, I mean, we're all yours today. What do you wanna talk about? What is what gets you excited when you think about Bitcoin? You've been in the space for, I think, longer than I have.
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Yeah. So,
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you know, stuff happening stuff happening on the privacy front is really exciting. First of all, you know, the FEDI Mint, Minh Mint stuff. What do you think about that? Is that is that am I am I right to be excited about that? Because I've been getting a lot of shit because I've been,
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I've been I've been hiding it a bit. Bullish on it just since day 1. I mean, I read the the script cash paper from the Right. Smuggler and the,
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you know, prog guys, and
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I was I was looking at script cash on, like, how do how do we implement this? How do we make it happen? And then,
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Sirion comes out of nowhere at HCPP last year, drops a prototype. Right.
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And it's just, you know, the federated Chaumian Mint is the way you get well, Chaumian Mint is the way you get amazing privacy.
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The federated spin on it gives you a little bit less,
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custody risk.
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And so it's And then the cool part to me is I mean, that's all
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well and good.
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But the cool part to me is this idea of the lightning gateway so you can pay and receive from basically any Bitcoin wallet. Yeah. Lightning interop, I I think, is is the magic the magic. Because if you look at something that's federated, I mean, it doesn't have Chomini cash, but it's federated like liquid and just no one uses it. Right.
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I gotta gotta imagine part of the reason is the friction moving between
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the federation and
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Yeah. And and the weight of you don't need a blockchain
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for eCash. Right. And so
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that's the whole that's part that's part of the magic there. So it's just these instant transfers of these eCash tokens.
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You don't need blockchain. Interop with Lightning means that you can go in and out very fast.
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So if you have concerns about,
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solvency of the of the mint or inflation or whatever,
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you can get your funds out at the speed of lightning the lightning network. Right.
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And so there might be a lot of people that dip in a little bit, come back out, dip in, and it's and as long as that that Mint is keeping up that trust of, hey. Any any of your lightning withdrawals
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that are going out,
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they never they never get pods, so you get more trust
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in them. Well, I don't know if you're aware of this, but one of the cool parts of how they have it currently set up or, like, the plan in place is that, essentially,
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anyone who's a part of the Mint, not just the federation members, can be running these lightning gateways. So you could actually have multiple lightning gateways, and and there's almost a free market competition
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among the lightning gateways of a specific federation. Right. There's a lot of cool stuff going on. Yeah.
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But, yeah, I find that very promising. What else what else you got for us? Well, I've been thinking about Bitcoin in space Yeah. Again. So I wrote one article called Bitcoin and the interplanetary frontier
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back in 2017.
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And, I'm a lot faster at writing code than I am at writing prose, so I haven't written the follow-up yet.
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But,
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you know, I thought that
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we're hunkered we're we're hunkered down in the citadel.
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You know, the the world's going crazy out there. Right. The bear market's on. We've battened down the hatches, and we're we're in build mode.
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And we could go doomer pod,
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but I was thinking we we look outward. There's a lot of doomer pods out there. We look forward. Something new, you know, some sort of evergreen content for the, for the next bull
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market. So, like, the 2 the 2 space Bitcoin space pros, I guess, in in the in the space. Are you in the space?
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Are you and Dhruv from Unchained? Mhmm.
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Dhruv is pretty sure that
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people in space are gonna be using shitcoins.
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Where do you fall on that? Are are are Martians gonna be using shitcoins, or are they gonna be using Bitcoin? So this was this is the big this is the big question for me.
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I don't think
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you can go interstellar
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with Bitcoin.
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Okay. You know, Citadel Proxima, right,
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in the Alpha Centauri system
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is 4 light years from Earth. Okay?
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So I don't know if you can have 10 minute block times and transfer that much data for light years for the, you know,
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the, the the the plebs over there on, approximately The trust model breaks down. But, yeah, the trust model breaks down.
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Then you back it you back it up a little bit, and you're getting into one of these ships to go to another star. Alright? Okay.
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You're set you're set you're setting out with, like, a 1000 people in this generation ship. It's gonna take you 5,000 What years is this? I don't know.
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2025, 2026.
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No.
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Soon, though. And,
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we need to get it we need to get off this planet. Anyway,
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jump on the ship. You jump on the ship, and
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do you the big question to me is do you hard fork
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Bitcoin
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and keep and and take the UTXO set with you?
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Do you try to launch something new?
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Because then the the mining comes into play and, you know, the the premise of Bitcoin. Right? Right.
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Internet cash without a trusted third party. Right.
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In a space exploration setting,
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you've got a really closed ecosystem. Like, one ship is the entire universe for these Right. 100 people. That's their economy. That's their whole economy,
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all this sort of stuff. There might be some connection back. They might still have financial obligations back home or something.
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Right. But if yeah.
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But you gotta can't you kind of sell all your property before you, you know, head on a ship to another star. You're not coming back. It's a one way trip. Yeah. Your great grandchildren are not coming back.
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So
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so so it'd be awesome to have this sound money to kick off the new human civilization.
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It'd be cool if you could do it off of a few UTXOs
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from the original Bitcoin chain and carry that through.
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You have to fork because
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if you separated the chains for, like, a 1000 years and then they came back together,
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one would wipe out the other and you'd lose, like Right. A 1000 years' worth of chain. Okay. So you don't wanna do that. You gotta have some sort of separation, some sort of fork.
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But the question is, do you bootstrap it off of UTXOs, or do you try to launch something new maybe even when you get there?
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So I don't know. This that's that's pretty far out. That's pretty cosmic. Alright.
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Oh, you wanted to get cosmic. Usually, we talk about,
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more like hands on stuff, but we're all yours here. So
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just grateful to have you in the studio. Yeah.
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But if you roll it back, like Mars, right,
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moon is perfectly fine.
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So the moon is, you know, 1 and a half light seconds away.
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You could potentially have a video call with somebody on the moon. Okay.
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Mars is 3 to 22 minutes away,
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light time. So you need you need block confirmations. There's a couple more block confirmations
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to use Bitcoin on Mars,
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but you could use Lightning Network locally on Mars. And then settle
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And if you had to, you could on the main chain. That's right. And so it's just 2 blocks extra confirmation time that you need.
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Maybe 4 because you need there and back around. But that's doable. That's doable. That's doable. So the Martians aren't gonna be using shitcoins.
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I don't think they have to. No.
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What I've also been thinking about is, like,
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you've got this period where
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from Mars or from the Earth, it's behind the sun in certain parts of the orbit. Right? So it's like
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you can't communicate with it because it's in this solar
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blackout zone.
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So, of course, you need You've really thought about this. Yeah. You need
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like comm satellite
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you know, relay stations in different orbits
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to relay the information
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around the sun
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so you can still have this
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sort of back and forth
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communication between the split civilizations of Earth or of of humanity. Right?
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Which also takes which also, I think, partly alleviates
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Dhruv's
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concern that you need hash power in both locations.
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The center of hash concept that he introduced Right.
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Makes it to where the Earth based miners
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could
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reject all the transactions from Mars if there's some sort of
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conflict.
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Right?
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Right.
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But
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if you can relay the data, then some miner will mine the blocks because how can you tell this one comes from Mars? And,
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you just put a fee on it and they respond to incentives. Right.
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So it's kind of the old the old They don't mind you keep increasing the fee or whatever till they mine it, till someone mines it. Right. You spend all day waiting for, you know, did it come in on a in a block? You know?
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Using using the dashboard would probably be pretty slow. But have you looked into are there massive energy resources on Mars? I just kinda feel like I assume there are.
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I don't I don't actually know. I haven't look I haven't looked into the energy there. It's got it's got less solar,
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so it's just farther away. Right. There's less atmosphere,
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so you couldn't do as much wind, but I'm sure they'll bring nuclear nuclear generators with them Right. In the in the colonies. And you could just do that wherever. But then you can do that wherever. That's right. Yeah. So they won't have a there there's no cost advantage if if it's if it's nuclear. Oh, the real thing is is chip fab. You know? Can you get You'd have to bring all the chips up with you, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Like, a ASIC ASIC fabs are essentially
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one of the few, like, pinnacles of human, like, capitalistic
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economies. Like, it's there's so much that goes into building a chip fab,
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so much supply chain, and so much,
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high technology and smart people and all sorts of stuff
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that getting that getting a chip fab up and running on Mars
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would take a long, long, long time. And it's hard enough to just get the chip fabs in America. It's hard enough to get them here, you know, where we need them. Yeah. And they're not under the control of foreign powers that are potentially hostile to the US. So Have you ever read or watched Expense?
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I read the first book. What'd you think of it?
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It was cool. I like how they had a a colony in the asteroid belt. That was pretty sweet. Well, so that's how so the way it works in Expanse is there's the Earth civilization, and then there's the Mars civilization, and they're basically
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equivalent in power. They're they they work together to a degree, but they're they're frenemies.
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And then there's, like, the belters that have only grown up in the asteroid belt on, like, space stations and stuff. They're starting to diverge from humanity because they're low gravity and stuff like that. But, like, as a sci fi nerd, one of the things
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I mean, Expanse is really cool because they, like, try and make it as,
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connected to physics and realistic as possible as someone who's doesn't really know any of that shit. Pretty sure.
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But all most of all the sci fi books always
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just throw out the money question. They just say, like, credits.
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Right? They they never tell you, like, how the money works or how that communication goes, how that how that consensus happens. Right. It's just they're using fucking credits. Yeah.
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There was one there was one set of books that I read that were more of, like, an end cap author,
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the Aristides
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series.
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Pretty low quality books, but he did think about a lot of this stuff in this in the,
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context of a lunar colony.
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So, it's kind of like
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an anarcho capitalist lunar society
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in It's like seasteading on the moon. Right. In the vein of the earth as a harsh mistress. You know, that that sort of,
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Yeah. Usually, sci fi ignores the money question.
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But even even in, you know, post post scarcity, post money, like Star Trek, there's still conflict. There's still scarcity. Yeah. So it's
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it's kind of like disingenuous. Right?
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So I mean, let's just bring this back to Earth a little bit. I mean, these types of these types of questions,
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I mean, we're extrapolating them or you're extrapolating them for space.
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But this goes
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hand in hand with the idea of, okay, someone's in China and someone's in the United States. How can they use,
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Bitcoin in a trust minimized way?
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Right, which is reducing latency in terms of block times, like an actual block propagation, not block times. Mhmm. Making sure that data actually hits all the participants in a relatively quick amount of time, keeping that data overhead,
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as low as possible.
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Can you explain to the freaks, you know, why that is necessary?
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Yeah. Because if if,
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the longer it takes to learn about a block,
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the less of an advantage any miner has.
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So you have this median
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10 minute block time,
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and if a mine if it takes
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30 seconds to propagate the block to the miner,
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they've just lost 5% of the time, so they'll probably lose 5% of their revenue. They'll they'll produce more orphans, you know, in case a block was found in that in that little bit of time. They'll now be one block behind, and they will have wasted that wasted that time.
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And in practice, it's
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so the the miner who mines it has an advantage in that situation.
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And in practice, it leads to minor centralization
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rather than what we want, which is as as much mining distributed as possible, in many hands as possible.
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Yeah. The even, like, a with like, a block withholding attack is where you you find a block,
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and you mine a little bit on it
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to try to find another one before you You don't broadcast it right away. Yeah. You release both of them to the network at the same time. Right. And this is an attack that
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that, basically, you need you need to have a large amount of hash under a single control to try and pull off that attack. Right. And the pools may be doing it. You know, maybe the bad actor pools are doing it.
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And it may not be an attack
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depending on how you I mean, it's a greedy it's just a normal incentive play. Right? Right. Because they can lose if they if they play that game and someone else comes out with a block and it propagates really quickly,
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then they can just get fucked and they can lose out on the first block. So they're taking a little bit of risk. Which is why the whole system's propagation needs to be Right.
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As fast as possible. Right. Low latency as possible to basically incentivize,
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quote, unquote, good behavior. And that's what the that's what the fiber
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network is all about. Right. It's just communicating all the transactions ahead of time and just the block ahead of time. The thing Carvala, the thing Corello created. Right.
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And it's spelled
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fibr
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e, I think. I think so.
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Yeah. Fast Internet block relay.
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Basically, it's miners are connected without they're not actually propagating it through the
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the normal gossip p to p network or whatever of Bitcoin. Right? Special connections. Separate. Special connections and then way more data
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so that you so that every miner has,
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hopefully, all of the transactions in the block
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prior to just receiving the header
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from the found block. So that's only 80 bytes that has to go
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over the Internet and then, like, the list of transactions,
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just the just the TXIDs,
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not the full transaction data. Right. So you can relay the found block very, very in a very lightweight
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way.
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And that's kind of the best you can do,
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as far as, you know But that's, like, opt that's opt in on a minor basis if they wanna use it or not. But I'm sure there's a there's a financial advantage to doing it. Unless you're a bit unless yeah. Otherwise, you're just getting full blocks, you know, getting whole blocks from the network. Yeah. Unless you're,
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unless you're, like, a very large miner and you're trying to basically do block withholding attacks. Right.
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And I guess you read from the you read from fiber, but you don't broadcast on it or something like that. Right?
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I guess you could.
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But I don't
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know. But I I so I guess, like, we can't really extrapolate something like fiber for
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space travel because
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there's a physics limitation. It's like it's not like humans can
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because, I mean, besides money, there's a massive incentive for humans to try and make communication with the outer planets as easy as possible. Right. But there's there's a physics limitation there. Right? Like, you can only make it speed of light. We can't go past the speed of light. Right? Not yet. Are we gonna ever be able to? I don't I don't know. You heard it here first, guys. Clark, is bullish on
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faster than speed of light communication. All all you CERN all you CERN physicists who are listening in, hit us up in the, in the comments.
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I just wanna say that I'm
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I'm I'm proud that you're you don't think the Martians are gonna be using shitcoins, because I was pretty sure they weren't gonna be using shitcoins. No. You just need a couple you need a couple other lock couples block confirmations. But I I think that, you know, the main so if you talk about communication, so
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this really incentivizes
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people to set up these Calm Relay systems and sell
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bandwidth,
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because if it's all just one dish and you just knock out that dish, then Mars is shut down. Right?
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So it's gonna take lots of lots of entrepreneurs to set up. Do you think Mars will be settled?
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It's a really great Bitcoin question. Do you think Mars will be settled,
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by governments, or will it be privately led?
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Probably private. The cost the cost to governments when they're all bankrupt at this point would be way too high. And and it just couldn't be done politically. Do you think it'll be a single corporation
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that controls Mars, or do you think it'll be multiple corporations?
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I think it'll be independent,
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independent groups of Bitcoiners.
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Like, what are the char chartering rockets? I mean, I think I so I disagree with DeRue's premise that, like, Martians have to use Sheik coins and, like, they're incentivized to use Sheik coins. But I
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I wouldn't disagree with this is not his premise, but I wouldn't disagree with the idea that
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shake corners tend to ruin all the good things. So I wouldn't, like, what are the chances that
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the 1st successful colony is, like, led by one of these shit corners that has a shit ton of Bitcoin, just funds it all himself?
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If they're funding it with Bitcoin, you know, I don't know. Well, that's, like, the biggest part of the shitcoin scam, right, is that they all hold huge back like, they shitcoin to have Bitcoin. Right. Right. Like, I'm thinking, like, the EOS guys like, the EOS guys, like, have, like, a 140,000
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Bitcoin or something like that. Right?
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Like, they could just make it Eos planet, or
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I'm not even gonna say his name, but the guy, like, dresses in Prada all the time or something. Right? It's like,
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it's his planet,
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Mars Corp. Well, when the scam Mars is in the whole colony, like, dries up and all the people die, then
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maybe there will be some repercussions. You know, We have winsome hacks in the comments saying you can bet some scammers already cooking up a narrative for interplanetary
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defy. Wasn't there a Mars coin at some point? Probably. There's, like, every, I mean, there was a there was a Luna coin, right, that that fucking collapsed. So you could you could make an argument for an interplanetary settlement coin
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that has really long block times,
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like one day or 1 week or 1 year long block intervals or something.
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And it's potentially tied to the Bitcoin chain. And how would you tie it to the Bitcoin chain?
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You would say to mine this thing, you have to put
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the hash of a Bitcoin block that's
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100,000
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higher than the previous
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block in our chain. You have to put the Bitcoin hash in it. And so, you have to validate both chains to
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do it, or you just do enough proof of work that it takes a year to find a block or whatever.
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And then you have this really long
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to connect everything, and then each economy has its own local whatever.
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Right. Yeah. The the the center of hash, right, could be very, very large. The total hash horizon or whatever could be very large because block propagation,
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the the latency
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wouldn't be as as high of a fraction of the block time.
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So, you know, it's, like, 10 minute blocks.
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You can only go about
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a light minute out or something. So, like,
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maybe to Mars or whatever. If you're if you're if you're mining if you're mining. Well, I have a feeling that I'm not gonna be alive for these
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for these hash wars, but,
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I think my grandkids are gonna have a really fucking fun time with it. It should should be,
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I love all the adversarial stuff that happens in Bitcoin. Yeah.
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And send incentivize incentivize people to to follow the rules. Like, I think some people like, I'm glad the 4th course happened.
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Are you glad the 4th course happened? Yes. I'm glad I got to live through them. I'm glad I got to be heavily,
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attentive and involved during them. Yeah. It was a very special moment in Bitcoin history.
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Very exciting.
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Very exciting.
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It was it was essential, though, to to
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allow
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people to make changes and see what happens.
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Right?
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They got to find out. Exactly. And Look around and find out. That's right. And so they found out,
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and people
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if they if they dumped all their Bitcoin for the other chains, they just got hosed. Absolutely wrecked. Absolutely wrecked.
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So,
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you know, and it also it it's a pressure release valve. Right?
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Oh, we're we we can't change Bitcoin, so we just gotta go do something else. We can't, You know, we're not gonna steer this ship. Right.
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No stopping this train. You know?
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Do you think there's going to be
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so I feel like some people took the wrong thing from the fork wars,
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and and and that being
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I guess, this is a leading question.
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Do you think there'll be successful hard forks in Bitcoin in the future?
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I think unless well,
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unless we have to unless we find a way around it, we have to hard fork at least once. So the 21 40 thing? Because of the time stamp.
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Yeah. What is that, 2140? Am I makes up my years? It's been a while. 2106.
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2106?
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Yeah. That your 2106 problem. It's like the it's what the Unix timecode something
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we run we run out of we run out of
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seconds
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on an unsigned 32 bit integer.
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So once you do that, you go back to 1970,
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and the network would halt. But that's not what I mean. I mean, so, obviously,
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there's gonna be a lot of
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support for doing something like that,
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because we have no choice. You guys have no choice.
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Yeah. And, you know, there'll be years of discussion, maybe decades of discussion on how to do that.
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So part of my Bitcoin Zen in holding
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Bitcoin long term is
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that I believe that the fork wars showed us
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that Bitcoin is extremely hard to change by default, and that's one of the key value props of Bitcoin.
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And to change it significantly, particularly to have a hard fork, you need to basically have this groundswell
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of,
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support for it. And it's really hard to measure. You can't really measure it until after you fork, so it's like a very rough consensus type of situation.
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But, ultimately, the way I look at it is the value of Bitcoin is
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abstractly
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in the
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in the actual UTXO set, in the actual ledger of transactions. This is a this is a
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basic living document,
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living ledger of
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everyone's wealth over time. That's immutable.
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So
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if there was, for some reason, some kind of thing that we needed to,
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if there was some reason we needed to change Bitcoin
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and add something to Bitcoin or
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adopt some kind of new technology that doesn't exist today,
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if we hit a a a point where, like, there was a lot of there was a lot of pain, there was a lot of push, there was a lot of
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support consensus
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around
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changing Bitcoin to that thing,
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there would be a hard fork,
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and that, potentially, that hard fork
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could become the dominant chain. Right.
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And if you were holding Bitcoin, you could just go into a coma. You can go to sleep and just not even pay attention to it. You have on you have on both chains anyway. Right.
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But, ultimately, whichever one the market values as the sounder money is the one that succeeds. I mean, because the thing is, like, BCash,
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and then later, SV,
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like, they had just really shitty developers
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running it. There there was no real momentum or motivation to change
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to it. Like, I I I think it's caught like, people should be careful about
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extrapolating
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too much from that situation.
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Is there not could there not be a situation where
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there was,
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basically
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first of all, anyone can fork at any time. No one stop them. That's part of Bitcoin. Right?
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Do you do you think there could ever be a situation where there is a fork?
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That's not the Unix time related
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that was successful?
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I I well, so so
403
00:31:12.215 --> 00:31:16.955
just one note about b cache. Right? It it required a second hard fork almost immediately
404
00:31:18.010 --> 00:31:18.510
because
405
00:31:19.529 --> 00:31:22.429
planning for a hard course hard fork is really hard.
406
00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:29.665
And you mentioned that it's quality of developers that there wasn't enough. I you know, there there were some time on it
407
00:31:30.285 --> 00:31:46.674
to say, okay. Hey, we're we're actually introducing a reason for another hard fork within weeks. Right. And so, you you know, you don't want that first hard fork followed by a second emergency hard fork because then you just lose all credibility, but Right. So, you want it planned ahead. I think if there's a Bitcoin hard fork with strong consensus,
408
00:31:47.294 --> 00:31:49.955
it will probably have a 5 or 10 year,
409
00:31:52.095 --> 00:31:56.580
a 5 or 10 year It won't be like an impulse thing. Right. It'll be like,
410
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.700
hey. Everybody remember, in 10 years, we're we're forking. You know? Get ready. 10 years. Make sure your stuff is ready. Right?
411
00:32:04.034 --> 00:32:06.294
People will still wait till the last minute. You know? But
412
00:32:06.595 --> 00:32:11.894
Everyone will last. Big, long advance on it. There's big, long advanced runway on it.
413
00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:15.060
There's maybe something with
414
00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:19.460
maybe something with quantum attack. If a quantum attack becomes apparent,
415
00:32:20.415 --> 00:32:24.675
maybe, but I don't know how you could But there's, like, a bunch of things that we can't even conceptualize.
416
00:32:24.975 --> 00:32:31.700
Right? Right. That's why I thought about it because we were talking about space. Right. Like, we have no fucking idea what's gonna happen in space. However,
417
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.160
you know, mathematics, right, is
418
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.860
we think is at least a universal language. So,
419
00:32:39.175 --> 00:32:48.210
if you can if you can prove something mathematically, then maybe that that proof would hold everywhere in the universe. So I don't know. Well, like, one of the things I took away from BCash was,
420
00:32:50.270 --> 00:32:52.130
so anyone can fork. Mhmm.
421
00:32:53.894 --> 00:32:54.394
And
422
00:32:54.774 --> 00:32:56.794
then the other takeaway is that
423
00:32:57.255 --> 00:32:58.875
only one fork will be successful.
424
00:32:59.414 --> 00:33:00.315
Right. So
425
00:33:01.150 --> 00:33:03.169
so whichever whichever chain wins,
426
00:33:03.630 --> 00:33:06.690
the other one's gonna trend to 0 is my is my,
427
00:33:09.905 --> 00:33:13.845
is basically is my thesis. Right. And so the question is,
428
00:33:14.145 --> 00:33:15.525
will there ever be one
429
00:33:16.225 --> 00:33:17.345
that is not the
430
00:33:18.710 --> 00:33:22.570
because, presumably, with the the UNIX thing, the time code thing,
431
00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:36.840
there'll be a hard fork, but no one will keep the chances that someone tries to keep the original chain alive is is probably very minimal just because why would you do that? You still have a you have a ticking time bomb on the back end.
432
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:44.515
So so I would almost say that that's probably not even relevant to discussion for that reason. Well, do they I think I think that the hard fork,
433
00:33:45.455 --> 00:33:47.554
does it does it preserve the
434
00:33:47.910 --> 00:34:01.075
does it preserve the ASIC compatibility with the existing Of course. Install base? Or does it, like Well, if you take that out, then it's it then you're a whole different ballgame. Right? Okay. So it's so it's AC compatible. The miners It's still shot 256.
435
00:34:01.935 --> 00:34:04.275
We're still using that whatever year this is.
436
00:34:05.140 --> 00:34:07.080
The mine the miners still have that
437
00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:15.325
incentive to be on the winning chain because the other one's going to 0. They have to they have to choose. Right. Like, I've said many times with Ethereum and the proof of stake thing,
438
00:34:16.265 --> 00:34:18.605
like, if you fork out the miners, the miners have
439
00:34:18.905 --> 00:34:20.525
every incentive to just continue
440
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:31.005
to continue on the original chain. There's no they have they have absolutely nothing to lose Right. Because they can't buy the new chain. Now their hardware is all worthless. Maybe ETC will come back. The ETC people are gonna
441
00:34:31.305 --> 00:34:35.244
I don't think so. I think if they ever actually successfully do an ETH,
442
00:34:36.029 --> 00:34:39.410
fork to proof of stake, which is still yet to be seen if that actually happens
443
00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:41.650
soon, soon, 2 weeks.
444
00:34:42.885 --> 00:34:48.665
I think the miners just continue the original chain. I think they just fork out the difficulty bomb or whatever, and then they just continue,
445
00:34:49.445 --> 00:34:51.785
because they have absolutely nothing to lose. I think,
446
00:34:52.640 --> 00:35:01.460
I said I like the adversarial stuff when it happens on Bitcoin. I like it even more when it happens on shit coins because it doesn't affect my money. Right. So I think that could be, like, the new
447
00:35:01.785 --> 00:35:03.245
fork war learning experience
448
00:35:03.705 --> 00:35:05.565
for, like, the new class without
449
00:35:06.105 --> 00:35:16.740
it affecting me at all, which could be good. Yeah. Yeah. There's the there's the hashtag change the code crowd that wants to just Yeah. Switch the devs can just switch to proof of stake. Come on, guys. This is not hard.
450
00:35:17.655 --> 00:35:20.295
So that This takes a 5,000,000 donation to,
451
00:35:20.775 --> 00:35:24.775
the scam that is Greenpeace, and you can Right. Hashtag change the code. I think that,
452
00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:28.150
there will be a proof of stake
453
00:35:28.690 --> 00:35:32.470
fork at some point to try to be compliance friendly, ESG friendly, whatever.
454
00:35:32.849 --> 00:35:42.325
I think someone Bitcoin? Yeah. Someone will try it. I hope so. And then you just get a free dividend. Right. Just sell our proof of stake token and get more Bitcoin with it. If it even has
455
00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:45.100
If it even has appreciable value. Like, Bcash
456
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.140
did have
457
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:49.740
a sizable value relative to the main chain
458
00:35:50.125 --> 00:35:57.585
for a while before it just petered off to almost nothing. Well, that's why we need to get the ESG funds into Bitcoin first, then have the proof of stake
459
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:01.260
Flip guys were ESG from? And then and then they'll all
460
00:36:01.560 --> 00:36:05.020
bag hold the proof of stake fork. While we And then and then
461
00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:10.204
we dumped onto them. Yeah, the ultimate dump is Bitcoiners dumping on the issue. It'd be nice to get
462
00:36:10.505 --> 00:36:13.644
another 30% dividend on Bitcoin. Ian Burner: The issue dividend.
463
00:36:14.184 --> 00:36:15.164
Someone will
464
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.200
hard fork the supply cap.
465
00:36:19.140 --> 00:36:22.279
Eventually, at some point. At some point, someone will say, alright.
466
00:36:23.975 --> 00:36:26.235
Annuals you know, after the next having,
467
00:36:26.775 --> 00:36:28.715
annual monetary inflation goes to
468
00:36:29.495 --> 00:36:29.995
0.7%
469
00:36:30.375 --> 00:36:31.755
or something like that.
470
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:33.910
So, harder than gold
471
00:36:35.570 --> 00:36:37.670
and not that much new supply coming online.
472
00:36:38.610 --> 00:36:44.575
So, someone will say, Hey, we need either a constant number or a constant percentage or something
473
00:36:45.115 --> 00:36:45.615
growth
474
00:36:46.235 --> 00:36:46.735
because
475
00:36:47.275 --> 00:36:51.270
inflation people never stop. Right? Right. We gotta have inflation. Gotta have inflation.
476
00:36:52.130 --> 00:37:03.635
So some of the hard fork And, also, like, the transaction fee FUD, which we're already seeing. Every bear market, you hear the fee FUD. Right? It's the death spiral. See? Yeah. The fees drop off, the price drops, and the hash rate goes too big, and the chain dies. That's
477
00:37:04.915 --> 00:37:09.940
Yeah. I mean, someone will do it at some point. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Death spiral FUD will never die.
478
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:15.220
Transaction fee FUD, energy FUD. It'll probably be, like, in a at a time of low fee environment
479
00:37:15.875 --> 00:37:17.895
while Bitcoin's in a bear cycle.
480
00:37:18.915 --> 00:37:23.415
Right? It will have crashed from, like, 30,000,000 a coin down to, like, 2,000,000 a coin,
481
00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:31.250
and people will say, it's gonna die. See, I love this shit. You wanted to go cosmic, but I like controversial. Controversial stuff is more exciting.
482
00:37:33.404 --> 00:37:44.820
So, I mean, we have citrinity in the comments. He goes, do you think ride or die freaks, citrinity. Shout out to you. He goes, do you think Bitcoin is fungible? Do you have any concerns with Bitcoin's current fungibility?
483
00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:48.580
Do you think we should be pushing for things like cross input signature aggregation?
484
00:37:49.974 --> 00:37:56.635
I mean, the the people who proposed Schnorr said that cross input is one of the goals here, and Right. They're working on it.
485
00:37:57.350 --> 00:37:58.650
Of course, I think we need it
486
00:37:59.110 --> 00:38:02.010
because it makes, you know, it makes coin joints more economically
487
00:38:02.950 --> 00:38:04.650
advantageous than single spends.
488
00:38:06.245 --> 00:38:06.745
Fungibility,
489
00:38:07.845 --> 00:38:09.625
you know, there's a lot of voodoo
490
00:38:10.565 --> 00:38:12.185
chain analysis stuff, and
491
00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:14.090
3rd parties can make your life,
492
00:38:14.390 --> 00:38:16.490
you know, a lot more tough than,
493
00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:18.730
self custody of coins. Right.
494
00:38:19.590 --> 00:38:20.090
So
495
00:38:20.474 --> 00:38:23.615
I think I think a lot of people need to get burned a little harder on that
496
00:38:24.474 --> 00:38:28.095
before they take it seriously. But as long as you're doing self custody,
497
00:38:30.490 --> 00:38:33.869
it's it gets it gets way harder to have the the
498
00:38:34.970 --> 00:38:36.109
the KYC encroachment
499
00:38:36.569 --> 00:38:42.545
matter as much. The KYC Encroachments insane, though. I mean It's absolutely insane. Yeah. I mean, like, if you if,
500
00:38:42.925 --> 00:38:45.985
like, I've been around the block for a decent amount of time. Yeah.
501
00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:51.230
Like like I said, I think you've been around long I mean, we what like, 20 6 pre 2016,
502
00:38:52.330 --> 00:38:56.190
none of these services had k y pretty much none of them had KYC. Right.
503
00:38:56.555 --> 00:38:58.655
Maybe Coinbase had, like, some light KYC,
504
00:39:00.075 --> 00:39:04.655
but pretty much none of the services that were operating in and around Bitcoin had.
505
00:39:05.490 --> 00:39:13.109
Definitely not by far this this stringent of KYC, but pretty much most of them had no KYC. And then, like, in a matter of 2 years,
506
00:39:13.945 --> 00:39:15.245
it was, like, the frog boiling.
507
00:39:15.705 --> 00:39:21.645
Right? Yep. And now it's just the standard. Like, if you're a newcomer coming into the space, you just assume that's how it's always been. Right.
508
00:39:22.100 --> 00:39:23.480
Like, KYC is
509
00:39:24.100 --> 00:39:33.105
I I still think the majority of state attacks have not happened yet. But KYC is a massive attack on Bitcoin that just Yep. Has been very successful. Like, it there has been
510
00:39:33.665 --> 00:39:38.165
is there there hasn't really been much pushback or It's because we haven't seen the crackdown.
511
00:39:39.560 --> 00:39:40.760
Do you think the
512
00:39:42.200 --> 00:39:47.180
so, I mean, you mentioned we well, so Trinity mentioned cross input signature aggregation, but
513
00:39:47.605 --> 00:39:51.945
you mentioned the value of cross input signature aggregation, which is that CoinJoin
514
00:39:53.045 --> 00:39:54.105
are more,
515
00:39:55.490 --> 00:39:58.390
affordable. They're cheaper than a regular transaction. Right.
516
00:40:01.330 --> 00:40:04.550
They're not cheaper than if you're just holding in a custodial wallet.
517
00:40:05.315 --> 00:40:09.575
No. And I think there's a there's there's something to be said there because,
518
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:21.619
like, I love our open source contributors. I love our developers. I love everyone who works on Bitcoin. But there's a tendency in Bitcoin to focus on
519
00:40:22.204 --> 00:40:24.625
the code, focus on the actual,
520
00:40:26.285 --> 00:40:29.265
internal things of Bitcoin rather than external pressures.
521
00:40:29.930 --> 00:40:37.815
And one of the things I noticed over the last 2 years and, I mean, hopefully, there'll be this will be a massive learning lesson if BlockFi does completely blow up.
522
00:40:38.295 --> 00:40:40.954
But we already know Celsius has blown up. We know Voyager's
523
00:40:41.494 --> 00:40:41.994
basically
524
00:40:42.375 --> 00:40:42.875
insolvent,
525
00:40:44.694 --> 00:40:47.175
probably Nexo, all of these different lending
526
00:40:47.690 --> 00:40:51.230
centralized lending platforms. But when you're talking about incentives, it's like, okay. Well,
527
00:40:51.530 --> 00:40:53.470
even in cross input signature aggregation,
528
00:40:54.330 --> 00:40:59.825
like, it'll be west way less affordable than to just give it to a custodian and get your 6% yield or whatever.
529
00:41:00.365 --> 00:41:12.450
Yeah. That 6% sure worth it at this point, ain't it? But I'm saying, like, that's what Right. Right. You're competing with that. Right? Right. They're the all these Bitcoin privacy sovereign stuff are competing with the incentives of the custodial regulated system. No?
530
00:41:13.045 --> 00:41:17.065
Well, I'll tell you what, if they get lightning enabled for point of sale stuff,
531
00:41:17.684 --> 00:41:18.265
I mean,
532
00:41:18.565 --> 00:41:24.710
that's a game changer because you can spend I get a lot of shit for saying that. You can spend sats. I think Mahler's announcement
533
00:41:25.890 --> 00:41:29.915
this year at the Bitcoin conference was way bigger than the last year 1 because
534
00:41:30.215 --> 00:41:32.635
I I I think it's really cool that a
535
00:41:32.935 --> 00:41:39.820
Latin American country is is making Bitcoin legal tender, but there's 6,000,000 people there. They have a tiny GDP.
536
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:45.980
If every if if if half of retail merchants in America are accepting lightning payments,
537
00:41:46.855 --> 00:41:59.100
If I That's a complete game changer. If I could buy my briefcase of LaCroix at Walmart, the SATS And the other thing is knows that I got it, you know. There's a lot of nuance about Lightning privacy, but all else equal, you know,
538
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:15.830
they probably will not know what UTXO funded that transaction. So there's no history there. It's actually like a cash transaction. Exactly. But the issue people say to me, like, what is the difference between this and BitPay? I mean, you remember, like, 2013 2014, whereas like, BitPay, we just got another
539
00:42:16.210 --> 00:42:21.194
retailer after another retailer over and over again. Well, the difference is that was all on chain. So, there was this
540
00:42:21.494 --> 00:42:27.035
whole history that was attached with every transaction. Right. And I mean, I know you're a very privacy focused guy.
541
00:42:27.790 --> 00:42:37.010
Me personally, when I spend Bitcoin on chain, there's a massive mental burden. Who am I paying? What is the history on that UTXO? What am I exposing? Am I gonna regret this transaction in 6 years?
542
00:42:37.615 --> 00:42:38.994
You don't have that with lightning.
543
00:42:39.535 --> 00:42:42.595
Right. Yeah. The As a sender. And the privacy the privacy
544
00:42:43.295 --> 00:42:46.520
verdict is still out on lightning, and there's a lot of big FUD.
545
00:42:46.820 --> 00:42:58.154
But there are a lot of foot guns, especially if you're receiving on lightning. There's a lot of ways you can fuck up. Yeah. It's still it's still unknown, and we're still waiting to see if somebody gets burned with lightning.
546
00:42:59.974 --> 00:43:02.075
But then this is where the chow me and mints come in.
547
00:43:02.930 --> 00:43:03.430
Right.
548
00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:12.645
So you make the you have this spectrum of trade offs. Right? And before we talk about that, you know, I'll say that the the node developers, the core developers,
549
00:43:14.145 --> 00:43:15.845
for them, privacy means,
550
00:43:16.385 --> 00:43:18.885
like, nobody can untangle which node
551
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.180
broadcast a transaction, and nobody can untangle the actual
552
00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:25.940
IP location of your node because it's on Tor and, like,
553
00:43:26.385 --> 00:43:30.805
mempool behavior and rebroadcast behavior and all these other things to make the nodes themselves
554
00:43:31.985 --> 00:43:33.685
more private on the Internet
555
00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:38.680
against Eclipse level, perhaps. Network level against Eclipse attackers and things like that, which, like,
556
00:43:39.140 --> 00:43:41.800
that's that's looking forward to ultra,
557
00:43:43.215 --> 00:43:44.355
sophisticated attackers.
558
00:43:45.135 --> 00:43:49.475
Like, someone's saying, hey. We we're gonna eclipse attack all the Bitcoin nodes in another country
559
00:43:49.850 --> 00:43:50.510
or something.
560
00:43:51.050 --> 00:43:53.230
Like, that's the level of stuff they're thinking about.
561
00:43:53.850 --> 00:43:54.350
And
562
00:43:56.330 --> 00:43:58.670
so there so the Bitcoin node itself
563
00:43:59.755 --> 00:44:04.255
improves its own privacy with, you know, every release. They they have little things that tweak privacy
564
00:44:04.555 --> 00:44:10.109
for the node itself. But it's a different type of privacy. Right? Right. So, there's all these different levels.
565
00:44:11.130 --> 00:44:15.309
But we're we're we're talking about, yes, you know, balance and history privacy.
566
00:44:15.944 --> 00:44:26.370
And And particularly in a post KYC world, particularly in a world where 99% of people are coming in, providing full ID information, and having their addresses tracked. Right. And I I think that I think that it, you know,
567
00:44:27.710 --> 00:44:31.170
when you have when you have layer 1, layer 2, and I think,
568
00:44:31.705 --> 00:44:35.005
you know, a Fetti Mint or something is layer 2a half, maybe layer 3,
569
00:44:36.665 --> 00:44:37.725
you have a
570
00:44:38.025 --> 00:44:39.485
a menu of trade offs.
571
00:44:39.809 --> 00:44:40.309
Right?
572
00:44:40.849 --> 00:44:41.670
And so
573
00:44:42.529 --> 00:44:46.789
you you trade off you know, lightning, you trade off locking up your funds
574
00:44:47.625 --> 00:44:50.685
for the instant settlement and having to be online.
575
00:44:50.985 --> 00:44:51.485
Right?
576
00:44:52.025 --> 00:44:56.285
With the Chaomian Mint, you trade off custody and maybe inflation assurances,
577
00:44:57.130 --> 00:44:59.150
but you get pretty much perfect privacy.
578
00:44:59.849 --> 00:45:01.789
Right? Among your an onset.
579
00:45:02.089 --> 00:45:05.470
Among the an onset. Like, if you got 10 people in the sediment or whatever.
580
00:45:06.065 --> 00:45:07.285
And interrupt with lightning.
581
00:45:07.665 --> 00:45:08.484
So, like,
582
00:45:08.785 --> 00:45:12.805
it's like, oh, it's one of those 10 people that paid the lightning invoice. But but how do you
583
00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:15.750
how can you connect those dots all the way through?
584
00:45:16.210 --> 00:45:16.710
Because
585
00:45:17.089 --> 00:45:19.270
the the you interface with the Chaumian,
586
00:45:20.290 --> 00:45:21.190
with the Mint
587
00:45:21.994 --> 00:45:24.655
nodes on tor and all this sort of stuff. So,
588
00:45:25.515 --> 00:45:26.655
I I think that
589
00:45:27.675 --> 00:45:37.030
I think that some a couple minutes will get very large, and the announcement will be pretty big, and it'll be And see, this is where I impossible. Obi disagrees. So, like,
590
00:45:38.234 --> 00:45:42.494
Fedimans is currently being led by Obi, Eric Sirion, and Justin Moon.
591
00:45:43.835 --> 00:45:46.750
And Obi disagrees with me on this. He thinks there's gonna be a
592
00:45:47.310 --> 00:45:59.755
primarily small community impediments. Right. I agree with you that I think there'll be a couple really big ones, and then there'll be ideally 100, thousands of small ones that are all interoperable with each other. Right.
593
00:46:00.455 --> 00:46:04.155
But there's definitely a strong argument. If they're competing on uptime and fees
594
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:11.180
and potentially privacy, but a lot of people don't care about privacy, so maybe they're not really competing on the the onset as much.
595
00:46:12.904 --> 00:46:14.605
There's an there's a,
596
00:46:16.345 --> 00:46:18.924
kind of an economies of scale thing going on.
597
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:26.180
Right. Ethan Waldman: Right? Where you want to go for the bigger, more reputable ones that have maybe lower fees. Plus think about like,
598
00:46:27.575 --> 00:46:29.755
someone in a city where they don't really know any
599
00:46:30.055 --> 00:46:31.434
Bitcoiners. Right? Right.
600
00:46:32.055 --> 00:46:34.315
Well, here comes here comes some big mint
601
00:46:34.930 --> 00:46:36.790
run by a few nims.
602
00:46:37.970 --> 00:46:39.589
The nims are all, you know,
603
00:46:41.010 --> 00:46:41.750
mint members.
604
00:46:42.369 --> 00:46:42.869
And
605
00:46:45.385 --> 00:46:49.245
the random pleb says, hey. I'll just hook up to that one. It's not They've been running for 8 years.
606
00:46:49.785 --> 00:46:51.245
They have a great reputation,
607
00:46:51.625 --> 00:46:57.130
really good uptime. Right. So so maybe maybe there's a maybe there's a a transition. Maybe it starts
608
00:46:57.589 --> 00:47:01.609
big, and maybe there's 2 or 3 big mints. Maybe it's just one huge one, and then, like,
609
00:47:02.055 --> 00:47:04.155
somehow it gets taken down. I don't know. And then
610
00:47:05.895 --> 00:47:10.395
that causes it. And and then this is also, like, as the adoption of Bitcoin grows and grows and grows,
611
00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:13.430
maybe at some point, you get to these community mints.
612
00:47:13.970 --> 00:47:15.590
Because you could you could imagine,
613
00:47:15.890 --> 00:47:24.635
like, a small village, a small little ecosystem with a 2 of 3 a 2 of 3 men with 3 I mean, that's what what Galloy is basically doing, but without privacy.
614
00:47:25.015 --> 00:47:36.370
Yeah. Right now with the Bitcoin Beach Wallet or whatever, it's 2 of 3 well respected members, but there's no privacy from the custodians. That's true. Right. So they should switch to to a Chaumie Mint. This is what's so interesting is like I've been getting
615
00:47:36.680 --> 00:47:37.180
so
616
00:47:37.805 --> 00:47:41.665
my favorite thing in Bitcoin is just to get as many people to hate me as possible.
617
00:47:42.845 --> 00:47:43.345
So
618
00:47:43.645 --> 00:47:47.185
I've been getting a lot of shit from the privacy crowd on
619
00:47:48.430 --> 00:47:53.150
talking about Federated Charmaine Mint so often. Mhmm. And, primarily, it's because of the custodial risk,
620
00:47:54.825 --> 00:48:00.365
which is reduced because it's federated, but still exists. There's still custodial risk. Right? And
621
00:48:01.945 --> 00:48:04.605
this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about
622
00:48:05.210 --> 00:48:06.430
dev culture in Bitcoin,
623
00:48:06.890 --> 00:48:09.150
is that there's a lack of pragmatic
624
00:48:09.609 --> 00:48:10.109
tools.
625
00:48:10.810 --> 00:48:16.255
Like, okay. Let's look at our sit situation right now. Let's see. And, like, you brought up liquid earlier.
626
00:48:16.715 --> 00:48:19.455
I would say Federated Charmaine Mints to me is more
627
00:48:19.755 --> 00:48:23.375
to most Bitcoin is the better comparison rather than liquid that nobody uses
628
00:48:25.230 --> 00:48:27.089
is is while the satoshi,
629
00:48:27.950 --> 00:48:28.690
which is,
630
00:48:29.230 --> 00:48:32.690
you know, we can talk all day about how everyone should hold self custody,
631
00:48:33.145 --> 00:48:41.565
but I've seen some hardcore Bitcoiners go down to El Salvador. And when they send their picture of them buying beer or whatever with Bitcoin, buying pupusas with Bitcoin, they're using Wallet of Satoshi.
632
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:47.460
So the question is, okay. So how can we make a wallet that's as easy as Wallet as Satoshi as cheap as Wallet as Satoshi,
633
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:51.300
but gives you better privacy and has reduced custodial risk? So that's
634
00:48:52.015 --> 00:48:53.155
right. When I'm framing
635
00:48:53.535 --> 00:48:55.075
Federman's, I kind of think
636
00:48:55.615 --> 00:48:56.515
it's more,
637
00:48:57.934 --> 00:48:58.434
effective
638
00:48:58.734 --> 00:49:05.710
to talk about it from an improved custodial lightning wallet point of view rather than an improved federation model.
639
00:49:06.089 --> 00:49:21.359
And, again, it's the trade off. It's a trade off. Like, big corners will have a bunch of options. They can go to KYC. They can go here. They can go there. They can hold self custody. They can do self custody with, like, a hosted multi sig provider and have zero privacy. And this is this is the Twitter effect. Right? You make a tweet about something,
640
00:49:21.740 --> 00:49:31.575
and someone says, you didn't provide all of your disclaimers, assumptions, and alternatives 240 characters. In this one tweet. Like, yes, of course, there are trade offs, but I didn't mention them. You
641
00:49:31.955 --> 00:49:43.100
know? Because I'm talking about this one thing, and it you know? And a lot of people have this sort of absolutist, like, we have to have the one solution to rule them all. Right. You know? Oh, I don't like lightning because
642
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:52.700
of some either FUD or just certain thing about lightning. I don't like that. So I'll just use main chain. Okay. Fine. You use main chain, but lightning is providing a lot of value for a lot of people.
643
00:49:53.420 --> 00:49:54.160
You know?
644
00:49:55.180 --> 00:50:00.880
Xiaomi and Mints are still in dev, so we can't go out there and see what see what they're like in reality, but I think they're coming soon, and
645
00:50:01.985 --> 00:50:04.245
that'll be another set of trade offs that,
646
00:50:04.625 --> 00:50:06.725
hey, those people are using it and
647
00:50:07.185 --> 00:50:08.405
it works. Great.
648
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:13.420
Right? Yeah. Classic disclosure. Like, this is not a actual working product yet. So,
649
00:50:14.040 --> 00:50:17.640
we're just it's like our space discussion. We're just theorizing and,
650
00:50:18.145 --> 00:50:24.484
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm very hopeful. I think it'll be out soon, and then we can actually have better discussions about it once we can actually play around with it.
651
00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:28.369
Clark, I mean, I appreciate your time. I know you have to hit the road.
652
00:50:28.990 --> 00:50:33.810
We're about 50 minutes in, but, before we get to final thoughts here,
653
00:50:34.515 --> 00:50:40.455
I just wanted to say a little story about Clark. So Clark has been a very good Internet friend for a long time.
654
00:50:41.860 --> 00:50:43.480
I would say a ride or die friend.
655
00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:47.400
Me and my lady during COVID,
656
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:50.685
we left Brooklyn when they shut us down from
657
00:50:51.165 --> 00:50:54.305
everything. And we were doing Airbnb's all over the place, and we were,
658
00:50:56.765 --> 00:51:08.700
I would never disclose what our location was. We were doing rabbit hole recap every week. I would but we were doing Airbnb's all over the place. People knew we were doing Airbnb's all over the place. And we stayed at this really nice place in Maine,
659
00:51:09.464 --> 00:51:11.244
in Portland for a week,
660
00:51:11.625 --> 00:51:14.525
and I had this roof deck that I would work on every day.
661
00:51:15.385 --> 00:51:16.605
And I took a picture
662
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:21.060
of my laptop and my coffee on the roof deck,
663
00:51:21.520 --> 00:51:22.020
and
664
00:51:22.560 --> 00:51:26.900
it was just a really great view, really great place to work. And I held it I held it in my phone's gallery.
665
00:51:28.944 --> 00:51:36.484
I held it in my phone's gallery, and I 3 weeks later, I posted it on Twitter, and I said, good morning, fam, or something like that with picture.
666
00:51:37.170 --> 00:51:37.670
And
667
00:51:38.770 --> 00:51:40.870
there was some clues there, but not many.
668
00:51:41.490 --> 00:51:44.310
And Clark was the only freak who messaged me
669
00:51:44.765 --> 00:51:46.865
that he decoded all of the clues.
670
00:51:47.245 --> 00:51:49.025
Like he he looked at the skyline.
671
00:51:49.565 --> 00:51:52.065
He told he sent me a Google map,
672
00:51:52.600 --> 00:51:53.100
like,
673
00:51:53.400 --> 00:52:08.850
direct coordinates of the roof I was sitting on when I took the picture. And he was like, dude, you need to take down this tweet. And I was like, Ah, that was 3 weeks ago. But but that's fucking awesome. You want to talk about that a little bit? Like, that was fucking ridiculous. Right. So,
674
00:52:09.730 --> 00:52:17.990
Yeah. So you said good morning. And I I I thought that you wouldn't have been there at the exact location. I thought you weren't, you know, giving away your location. But
675
00:52:18.744 --> 00:52:19.244
but,
676
00:52:19.944 --> 00:52:20.444
yeah.
677
00:52:20.744 --> 00:52:23.805
So so, you know, in the picture, there's a river,
678
00:52:25.065 --> 00:52:27.440
and there's some, you know, petrochemical
679
00:52:27.740 --> 00:52:36.160
tanks and some other roofline features. So I basically just got on Google and started looking you said morning. So You literally sent me a picture with the exact house.
680
00:52:36.605 --> 00:52:41.025
And then just the comment was bro. Bro. That was the Why you what are you doing?
681
00:52:41.885 --> 00:52:42.785
What you doing?
682
00:52:43.244 --> 00:52:45.505
Yeah. So I just looked for I just looked for
683
00:52:45.870 --> 00:52:47.970
rivers that were kind of heading in the right direction.
684
00:52:48.510 --> 00:52:59.385
And in the morning in the morning time, given the shadows, and, you know, I kept going up the kept going up the eastern seaboard until I found this one that seemed to match, and I kinda honed in on it. It took me about half an hour.
685
00:53:00.005 --> 00:53:02.265
That's impressive. I I so I asked him,
686
00:53:03.430 --> 00:53:03.930
immediately.
687
00:53:05.350 --> 00:53:08.810
My first response was all caps, lmao, well played. But
688
00:53:09.190 --> 00:53:14.765
I said, how'd you figure that out? He goes, I hunted around on Google Maps for a river that ran northeast.
689
00:53:15.385 --> 00:53:28.300
Your pick had oil tanks in the background and a marina in the river, so that was the secondary clue. That was your explanation at the time. Also, our previous conversation there was about Scrip Cash. Hey. Scrip Cash. That's a Yeah. Yeah. Shout out Scrip.
690
00:53:28.625 --> 00:53:37.924
But, yeah, you were the only you're the only freak that figured it out. I was wondering if someone was gonna I didn't think someone was gonna pinpoint it that hard, but I was wondering if someone was gonna at least figure out Portland.
691
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:44.140
If someone lives there, they could've said, oh, hey. You know, I recognize that because that's where I live, but I guess
692
00:53:44.520 --> 00:53:47.974
need more freaks in Portland. Portland, Maine, we know you're out there. It's a good
693
00:53:48.275 --> 00:53:55.940
city. Yeah. It's a I've never been to Maine. Really beautiful. Maine is gorgeous. The politics worry me a little bit, but, the
694
00:53:57.040 --> 00:53:59.300
the Maine Seacoast is absolutely gorgeous.
695
00:54:00.560 --> 00:54:04.980
And Portland's a really cool city, and also the politics kinda worry me a little bit, but
696
00:54:07.345 --> 00:54:13.605
we really enjoyed it in Portland. At least not, you know, like owning or renting there, just, like, staying there for a couple weeks. Right.
697
00:54:14.145 --> 00:54:16.810
Anyway, Clark, it was a pleasure to have you on dispatch.
698
00:54:17.270 --> 00:54:21.290
It's been a long time coming. It's a pleasure to have you in the new studio. I think your guest number
699
00:54:22.935 --> 00:54:29.115
6 or 7 in the new studio, we're gonna have you put a sticker down, sign in with your name and your block height.
700
00:54:30.230 --> 00:54:31.610
Before we wrap up here,
701
00:54:32.070 --> 00:54:33.530
hit us with some final thoughts.
702
00:54:35.430 --> 00:54:37.690
To all the citadels out there, stay strong.
703
00:54:38.645 --> 00:54:41.625
Keep the walls fortified. Keep the zombie hordes out.
704
00:54:42.965 --> 00:54:44.265
We're all gonna make it.
705
00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:48.400
We're not all gonna make it. Except the people who aren't.
706
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:52.319
The Bitcoiners are gonna make it. When we when we
707
00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:53.839
write the history books,
708
00:54:54.345 --> 00:54:58.045
we're gonna be savage to all the clown world that's going on right now.
709
00:54:58.424 --> 00:55:02.444
There'll be a chapter called clown world, and we'll get to write it, and it'll be amazing.
710
00:55:02.910 --> 00:55:08.130
True true that. Winners do write the history books. Everyone should always remember that when they're reading history.
711
00:55:08.910 --> 00:55:14.695
Thank you, Clark. Thank you for joining. I hope your travels going forward from here are easy and pleasurable.
712
00:55:15.395 --> 00:55:20.135
Shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat on this lazy Sunday afternoon.
713
00:55:20.950 --> 00:55:22.810
As I said in the previous reps,
714
00:55:24.550 --> 00:55:31.045
dispatch schedule will be more fluid going forward. They will be prioritizing in person reps with people that are here at the studio
715
00:55:31.744 --> 00:55:33.285
because they're just fucking awesome.
716
00:55:34.865 --> 00:55:37.990
If you wanna get notified of those, subscribe on Twitch, twitch.tv/dispatch.
717
00:55:41.170 --> 00:55:44.950
I am bending the knee, and there will be a YouTube channel up as well.
718
00:55:45.435 --> 00:55:49.455
Put Citadel dispatch dedicated YouTube channel, so you can subscribe there as well.
719
00:55:50.075 --> 00:55:56.810
And, obviously, the Twitter account and the matrix chat. I always tell the ride or die freaks in the matrix chat always know ahead of time
720
00:55:58.950 --> 00:56:03.195
if there's gonna be a dispatch and what time it will be and who will be on it.
721
00:56:04.315 --> 00:56:06.415
So with all that said, thank you all for your support,
722
00:56:06.875 --> 00:56:18.760
especially those people that are sending via podcasting 2.0 apps, but also to anyone who's subscribing, leaving reviews, and sharing with their friends and family. I love you all. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Stay on with Stack Sats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:25:01 PM
Duration: 3379.827
Channels: 1
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Sunday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel dispatch.
3
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I am very excited for this conversation. We got Clark Moody in the house before we get there.
4
00:00:46.845 --> 00:00:54.610
Just a huge shout out as always to the to the rider dive freaks who continue to support the show and keep it ad free, sponsor free, and purely focused
5
00:00:55.150 --> 00:00:59.915
on actual discussion. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps.
6
00:01:00.695 --> 00:01:01.675
Fountain Podcasts
7
00:01:01.975 --> 00:01:03.675
and Breeze Wallet are my favorite.
8
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You simply
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load up,
10
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your app
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with some sats, with some Bitcoin. Choose how many sats,
12
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per minute are you think this content is worth to you. And then from there, it'll just stream automatically to my note.
13
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Through podcasting 2.0, you can also do something called boostograms.
14
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That's when you send a specific amount of stats,
15
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to support the show, and you can include a message with that. Pretty cool. You end up with this comment system,
16
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that has value attached to it that is readable on all podcasting 2 point o apps.
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As always,
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the top 4
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boostograms
20
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from the previous,
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episode will be read on air. We have Chad Farrow who gave 33,000
22
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sats 33,333
23
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sats,
24
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and provided no message. I appreciate you, Chad. We have Eric Rome who provided 25,000
25
00:02:00.409 --> 00:02:03.229
sats to support the show. He said thank you to Slim for providing
26
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sound information relating to cattle deaths. So useful. I'm now looking into the beef initiative.
27
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We have poor Ben Gunn who provided 5,000 sats without a message. Shout out to Ben. Your support means a lot to me. I have a lot of respect for that dude. Great dude. And we have Nomad Joe with 3,000 sats saying thanks for Bitcoin Thursday and interviewing Texas Slim.
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There's a bunch of other boostograms here,
29
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at lower amounts. You can view them in your favorite podcasting 2.0 app at your leisure.
30
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I also want to say that if you cannot part with Sats currently,
31
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you can also support the show by simply
32
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searching Ciel dispatch in your favorite podcasting app
33
00:02:43.075 --> 00:02:48.295
and clicking the subscribe button, potentially leaving a good review. It really does help. So thank you all.
34
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Also, while we're here,
35
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a reminder that you can join the live chat both via Twitch. That's twitch.tv
36
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/cildispatch
37
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or via our matrix chat. Our matrix chat is
38
00:03:02.265 --> 00:03:07.560
just constant awesome discussion all throughout the week. You can get the link to that at sill dispatch.com.
39
00:03:08.660 --> 00:03:11.960
So with all that said, we do have a very tight time window here.
40
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Clark is simply passing through and, has dedicated some time. We're gonna be about 45 minutes
41
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here, to chat with us all, and very grateful for that. How's it going, Clark?
42
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43
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44
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45
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We've got the hospitality going.
46
00:03:34.295 --> 00:03:35.835
It's great. The studio is excellent.
47
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It's quiet.
48
00:03:37.335 --> 00:03:50.105
Beautiful. The soundproofing is insane. Soundproofing is, wonderful. I'm actually jealous. It makes you A lot jealous. Yeah. I feel like you can hear your thoughts in your head way more. Yeah. It gets Perfect. For better or for worse. You know? So, Clark,
49
00:03:50.965 --> 00:03:53.785
50
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Clark Moody dashboard.
51
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What was the what was the
52
00:04:00.220 --> 00:04:02.720
thought process behind releasing that in the first place?
53
00:04:03.635 --> 00:04:05.895
54
00:04:07.155 --> 00:04:08.695
we had lots of
55
00:04:09.635 --> 00:04:11.175
stats people were looking at
56
00:04:11.590 --> 00:04:14.810
user agents, people were typing in for their, UASF
57
00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:15.610
nodes,
58
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block signaling from the miners, all that sort of stuff going on.
59
00:04:21.475 --> 00:04:21.975
And
60
00:04:24.354 --> 00:04:29.014
you were looking at 4 or 5 different websites at a time Right. Just to see one number.
61
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So I'm going to
62
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what was it? Fork.lol
63
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or whatever, like, old school, all these things, and you're looking for one number. Okay. What's the percentage of notes here? What's the percentage of signaling there?
64
00:04:40.365 --> 00:04:41.585
And I was thinking, well,
65
00:04:41.965 --> 00:04:45.425
it would be really nice to have all those numbers in one place with no frills,
66
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just the numbers, just a big wall of numbers.
67
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And so that was the idea. I don't wanna have to go to all these different sites. And, like, 6 different tabs open. Yeah. All these tabs. You know? I don't wanna have to go all those different sites. I just want it all in one place.
68
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69
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proud supporter of your dashboard.
70
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What is the website? It's is it clarkmudi.com?
71
00:05:09.100 --> 00:05:09.600
Bitcoin.clarkmoodi.com
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/dashboard. I just put cl in my browser now and just automatically just fills it out. Sure. If you just search for Clark Moody dashboard.
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The finest donation experience in business.
76
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Anyway, freaks, if if you appreciate his dashboard, consider going and supporting it.
77
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So, Clark, I mean, we're all yours today. What do you wanna talk about? What is what gets you excited when you think about Bitcoin? You've been in the space for, I think, longer than I have.
78
00:05:46.580 --> 00:05:47.319
79
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80
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81
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you know, prog guys, and
82
00:06:13.340 --> 00:06:18.720
I was I was looking at script cash on, like, how do how do we implement this? How do we make it happen? And then,
83
00:06:19.100 --> 00:06:24.245
Sirion comes out of nowhere at HCPP last year, drops a prototype. Right.
84
00:06:24.945 --> 00:06:31.365
And it's just, you know, the federated Chaumian Mint is the way you get well, Chaumian Mint is the way you get amazing privacy.
85
00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.740
The federated spin on it gives you a little bit less,
86
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custody risk.
87
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88
00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:41.540
well and good.
89
00:06:41.905 --> 00:07:00.039
But the cool part to me is this idea of the lightning gateway so you can pay and receive from basically any Bitcoin wallet. Yeah. Lightning interop, I I think, is is the magic the magic. Because if you look at something that's federated, I mean, it doesn't have Chomini cash, but it's federated like liquid and just no one uses it. Right.
90
00:07:01.095 --> 00:07:04.555
I gotta gotta imagine part of the reason is the friction moving between
91
00:07:05.815 --> 00:07:07.115
the federation and
92
00:07:07.810 --> 00:07:10.310
93
00:07:10.690 --> 00:07:12.710
for eCash. Right. And so
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that's the whole that's part that's part of the magic there. So it's just these instant transfers of these eCash tokens.
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You don't need blockchain. Interop with Lightning means that you can go in and out very fast.
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So if you have concerns about,
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solvency of the of the mint or inflation or whatever,
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you can get your funds out at the speed of lightning the lightning network. Right.
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And so there might be a lot of people that dip in a little bit, come back out, dip in, and it's and as long as that that Mint is keeping up that trust of, hey. Any any of your lightning withdrawals
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that are going out,
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they never they never get pods, so you get more trust
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anyone who's a part of the Mint, not just the federation members, can be running these lightning gateways. So you could actually have multiple lightning gateways, and and there's almost a free market competition
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But, yeah, I find that very promising. What else what else you got for us? Well, I've been thinking about Bitcoin in space Yeah. Again. So I wrote one article called Bitcoin and the interplanetary frontier
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back in 2017.
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And, I'm a lot faster at writing code than I am at writing prose, so I haven't written the follow-up yet.
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But,
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you know, I thought that
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we're hunkered we're we're hunkered down in the citadel.
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You know, the the world's going crazy out there. Right. The bear market's on. We've battened down the hatches, and we're we're in build mode.
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And we could go doomer pod,
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but I was thinking we we look outward. There's a lot of doomer pods out there. We look forward. Something new, you know, some sort of evergreen content for the, for the next bull
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Are you and Dhruv from Unchained? Mhmm.
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Dhruv is pretty sure that
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people in space are gonna be using shitcoins.
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Where do you fall on that? Are are are Martians gonna be using shitcoins, or are they gonna be using Bitcoin? So this was this is the big this is the big question for me.
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you can go interstellar
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with Bitcoin.
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Okay. You know, Citadel Proxima, right,
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in the Alpha Centauri system
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is 4 light years from Earth. Okay?
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So I don't know if you can have 10 minute block times and transfer that much data for light years for the, you know,
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the, the the the plebs over there on, approximately The trust model breaks down. But, yeah, the trust model breaks down.
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Then you back it you back it up a little bit, and you're getting into one of these ships to go to another star. Alright? Okay.
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You're set you're set you're setting out with, like, a 1000 people in this generation ship. It's gonna take you 5,000 What years is this? I don't know.
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2025, 2026.
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No.
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Soon, though. And,
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we need to get it we need to get off this planet. Anyway,
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jump on the ship. You jump on the ship, and
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do you the big question to me is do you hard fork
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Bitcoin
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and keep and and take the UTXO set with you?
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Do you try to launch something new?
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Because then the the mining comes into play and, you know, the the premise of Bitcoin. Right? Right.
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Internet cash without a trusted third party. Right.
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In a space exploration setting,
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you've got a really closed ecosystem. Like, one ship is the entire universe for these Right. 100 people. That's their economy. That's their whole economy,
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But you gotta can't you kind of sell all your property before you, you know, head on a ship to another star. You're not coming back. It's a one way trip. Yeah. Your great grandchildren are not coming back.
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So
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so so it'd be awesome to have this sound money to kick off the new human civilization.
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It'd be cool if you could do it off of a few UTXOs
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from the original Bitcoin chain and carry that through.
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You have to fork because
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if you separated the chains for, like, a 1000 years and then they came back together,
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one would wipe out the other and you'd lose, like Right. A 1000 years' worth of chain. Okay. So you don't wanna do that. You gotta have some sort of separation, some sort of fork.
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But the question is, do you bootstrap it off of UTXOs, or do you try to launch something new maybe even when you get there?
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So I don't know. This that's that's pretty far out. That's pretty cosmic. Alright.
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more like hands on stuff, but we're all yours here. So
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just grateful to have you in the studio. Yeah.
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moon is perfectly fine.
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So the moon is, you know, 1 and a half light seconds away.
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You could potentially have a video call with somebody on the moon. Okay.
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Mars is 3 to 22 minutes away,
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light time. So you need you need block confirmations. There's a couple more block confirmations
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to use Bitcoin on Mars,
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but you could use Lightning Network locally on Mars. And then settle
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And if you had to, you could on the main chain. That's right. And so it's just 2 blocks extra confirmation time that you need.
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What I've also been thinking about is, like,
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you've got this period where
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from Mars or from the Earth, it's behind the sun in certain parts of the orbit. Right? So it's like
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you can't communicate with it because it's in this solar
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blackout zone.
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So, of course, you need You've really thought about this. Yeah. You need
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like comm satellite
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you know, relay stations in different orbits
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to relay the information
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around the sun
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so you can still have this
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sort of back and forth
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communication between the split civilizations of Earth or of of humanity. Right?
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Which also takes which also, I think, partly alleviates
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Dhruv's
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concern that you need hash power in both locations.
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The center of hash concept that he introduced Right.
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Makes it to where the Earth based miners
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could
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reject all the transactions from Mars if there's some sort of
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conflict.
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Right?
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Right.
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But
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if you can relay the data, then some miner will mine the blocks because how can you tell this one comes from Mars? And,
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you just put a fee on it and they respond to incentives. Right.
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So it's kind of the old the old They don't mind you keep increasing the fee or whatever till they mine it, till someone mines it. Right. You spend all day waiting for, you know, did it come in on a in a block? You know?
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so it's just farther away. Right. There's less atmosphere,
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so you couldn't do as much wind, but I'm sure they'll bring nuclear nuclear generators with them Right. In the in the colonies. And you could just do that wherever. But then you can do that wherever. That's right. Yeah. So they won't have a there there's no cost advantage if if it's if it's nuclear. Oh, the real thing is is chip fab. You know? Can you get You'd have to bring all the chips up with you, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Like, a ASIC ASIC fabs are essentially
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one of the few, like, pinnacles of human, like, capitalistic
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economies. Like, it's there's so much that goes into building a chip fab,
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so much supply chain, and so much,
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high technology and smart people and all sorts of stuff
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that getting that getting a chip fab up and running on Mars
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would take a long, long, long time. And it's hard enough to just get the chip fabs in America. It's hard enough to get them here, you know, where we need them. Yeah. And they're not under the control of foreign powers that are potentially hostile to the US. So Have you ever read or watched Expense?
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It was cool. I like how they had a a colony in the asteroid belt. That was pretty sweet. Well, so that's how so the way it works in Expanse is there's the Earth civilization, and then there's the Mars civilization, and they're basically
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equivalent in power. They're they they work together to a degree, but they're they're frenemies.
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And then there's, like, the belters that have only grown up in the asteroid belt on, like, space stations and stuff. They're starting to diverge from humanity because they're low gravity and stuff like that. But, like, as a sci fi nerd, one of the things
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I mean, Expanse is really cool because they, like, try and make it as,
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connected to physics and realistic as possible as someone who's doesn't really know any of that shit. Pretty sure.
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But all most of all the sci fi books always
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just throw out the money question. They just say, like, credits.
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Right? They they never tell you, like, how the money works or how that communication goes, how that how that consensus happens. Right. It's just they're using fucking credits. Yeah.
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the Aristides
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series.
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Pretty low quality books, but he did think about a lot of this stuff in this in the,
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context of a lunar colony.
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So, it's kind of like
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an anarcho capitalist lunar society
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in It's like seasteading on the moon. Right. In the vein of the earth as a harsh mistress. You know, that that sort of,
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Yeah. Usually, sci fi ignores the money question.
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But even even in, you know, post post scarcity, post money, like Star Trek, there's still conflict. There's still scarcity. Yeah. So it's
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it's kind of like disingenuous. Right?
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I mean, we're extrapolating them or you're extrapolating them for space.
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But this goes
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hand in hand with the idea of, okay, someone's in China and someone's in the United States. How can they use,
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Bitcoin in a trust minimized way?
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Right, which is reducing latency in terms of block times, like an actual block propagation, not block times. Mhmm. Making sure that data actually hits all the participants in a relatively quick amount of time, keeping that data overhead,
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as low as possible.
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Can you explain to the freaks, you know, why that is necessary?
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the longer it takes to learn about a block,
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the less of an advantage any miner has.
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So you have this median
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10 minute block time,
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and if a mine if it takes
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30 seconds to propagate the block to the miner,
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they've just lost 5% of the time, so they'll probably lose 5% of their revenue. They'll they'll produce more orphans, you know, in case a block was found in that in that little bit of time. They'll now be one block behind, and they will have wasted that wasted that time.
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so the the miner who mines it has an advantage in that situation.
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And in practice, it leads to minor centralization
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rather than what we want, which is as as much mining distributed as possible, in many hands as possible.
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and you mine a little bit on it
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to try to find another one before you You don't broadcast it right away. Yeah. You release both of them to the network at the same time. Right. And this is an attack that
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250
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then they can just get fucked and they can lose out on the first block. So they're taking a little bit of risk. Which is why the whole system's propagation needs to be Right.
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As fast as possible. Right. Low latency as possible to basically incentivize,
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network is all about. Right. It's just communicating all the transactions ahead of time and just the block ahead of time. The thing Carvala, the thing Corello created. Right.
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256
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fibr
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e, I think. I think so.
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the normal gossip p to p network or whatever of Bitcoin. Right? Special connections. Separate. Special connections and then way more data
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hopefully, all of the transactions in the block
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prior to just receiving the header
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from the found block. So that's only 80 bytes that has to go
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over the Internet and then, like, the list of transactions,
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just the just the TXIDs,
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not the full transaction data. Right. So you can relay the found block very, very in a very lightweight
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way.
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And that's kind of the best you can do,
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unless you're, like, a very large miner and you're trying to basically do block withholding attacks. Right.
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And I guess you read from the you read from fiber, but you don't broadcast on it or something like that. Right?
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But I don't
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space travel because
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there's a physics limitation. It's like it's not like humans can
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because, I mean, besides money, there's a massive incentive for humans to try and make communication with the outer planets as easy as possible. Right. But there's there's a physics limitation there. Right? Like, you can only make it speed of light. We can't go past the speed of light. Right? Not yet. Are we gonna ever be able to? I don't I don't know. You heard it here first, guys. Clark, is bullish on
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this really incentivizes
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people to set up these Calm Relay systems and sell
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bandwidth,
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because if it's all just one dish and you just knock out that dish, then Mars is shut down. Right?
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So it's gonna take lots of lots of entrepreneurs to set up. Do you think Mars will be settled?
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by governments, or will it be privately led?
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independent groups of Bitcoiners.
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I wouldn't disagree with this is not his premise, but I wouldn't disagree with the idea that
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shake corners tend to ruin all the good things. So I wouldn't, like, what are the chances that
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the 1st successful colony is, like, led by one of these shit corners that has a shit ton of Bitcoin, just funds it all himself?
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If they're funding it with Bitcoin, you know, I don't know. Well, that's, like, the biggest part of the shitcoin scam, right, is that they all hold huge back like, they shitcoin to have Bitcoin. Right. Right. Like, I'm thinking, like, the EOS guys like, the EOS guys, like, have, like, a 140,000
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Bitcoin or something like that. Right?
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Like, they could just make it Eos planet, or
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I'm not even gonna say his name, but the guy, like, dresses in Prada all the time or something. Right? It's like,
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it's his planet,
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that has really long block times,
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like one day or 1 week or 1 year long block intervals or something.
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And it's potentially tied to the Bitcoin chain. And how would you tie it to the Bitcoin chain?
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You would say to mine this thing, you have to put
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the hash of a Bitcoin block that's
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100,000
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higher than the previous
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block in our chain. You have to put the Bitcoin hash in it. And so, you have to validate both chains to
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do it, or you just do enough proof of work that it takes a year to find a block or whatever.
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And then you have this really long
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the the latency
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wouldn't be as as high of a fraction of the block time.
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So, you know, it's, like, 10 minute blocks.
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You can only go about
321
00:25:45.915 --> 00:25:48.575
a light minute out or something. So, like,
322
00:25:49.515 --> 00:25:54.815
maybe to Mars or whatever. If you're if you're if you're mining if you're mining. Well, I have a feeling that I'm not gonna be alive for these
323
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:56.680
324
00:25:57.560 --> 00:26:01.400
I think my grandkids are gonna have a really fucking fun time with it. It should should be,
325
00:26:02.595 --> 00:26:06.455
I love all the adversarial stuff that happens in Bitcoin. Yeah.
326
00:26:08.675 --> 00:26:15.780
And send incentivize incentivize people to to follow the rules. Like, I think some people like, I'm glad the 4th course happened.
327
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:21.925
Are you glad the 4th course happened? Yes. I'm glad I got to live through them. I'm glad I got to be heavily,
328
00:26:23.025 --> 00:26:28.320
attentive and involved during them. Yeah. It was a very special moment in Bitcoin history.
329
00:26:28.779 --> 00:26:29.519
Very exciting.
330
00:26:29.899 --> 00:26:30.639
331
00:26:31.019 --> 00:26:33.335
It was it was essential, though, to to
332
00:26:34.755 --> 00:26:35.255
allow
333
00:26:36.434 --> 00:26:39.095
people to make changes and see what happens.
334
00:26:39.554 --> 00:26:40.054
Right?
335
00:26:40.529 --> 00:26:45.750
They got to find out. Exactly. And Look around and find out. That's right. And so they found out,
336
00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:47.730
and people
337
00:26:48.505 --> 00:26:54.365
if they if they dumped all their Bitcoin for the other chains, they just got hosed. Absolutely wrecked. Absolutely wrecked.
338
00:26:55.465 --> 00:26:55.950
So,
339
00:26:56.830 --> 00:27:00.289
you know, and it also it it's a pressure release valve. Right?
340
00:27:00.590 --> 00:27:07.395
Oh, we're we we can't change Bitcoin, so we just gotta go do something else. We can't, You know, we're not gonna steer this ship. Right.
341
00:27:08.975 --> 00:27:10.915
No stopping this train. You know?
342
00:27:12.730 --> 00:27:14.570
343
00:27:16.090 --> 00:27:19.790
so I feel like some people took the wrong thing from the fork wars,
344
00:27:20.215 --> 00:27:21.575
and and and that being
345
00:27:22.215 --> 00:27:23.835
I guess, this is a leading question.
346
00:27:25.495 --> 00:27:29.115
Do you think there'll be successful hard forks in Bitcoin in the future?
347
00:27:31.050 --> 00:27:32.430
348
00:27:33.050 --> 00:27:40.105
unless we have to unless we find a way around it, we have to hard fork at least once. So the 21 40 thing? Because of the time stamp.
349
00:27:40.485 --> 00:27:44.985
350
00:27:45.525 --> 00:27:46.025
2106?
351
00:27:46.405 --> 00:27:51.520
Yeah. That your 2106 problem. It's like the it's what the Unix timecode something
352
00:27:51.980 --> 00:27:55.280
353
00:27:56.165 --> 00:27:56.665
seconds
354
00:27:57.045 --> 00:27:59.305
on an unsigned 32 bit integer.
355
00:28:01.205 --> 00:28:03.545
So once you do that, you go back to 1970,
356
00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:08.190
357
00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:09.950
there's gonna be a lot of
358
00:28:11.825 --> 00:28:13.925
support for doing something like that,
359
00:28:14.305 --> 00:28:16.325
because we have no choice. You guys have no choice.
360
00:28:17.665 --> 00:28:22.470
Yeah. And, you know, there'll be years of discussion, maybe decades of discussion on how to do that.
361
00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:27.270
So part of my Bitcoin Zen in holding
362
00:28:29.254 --> 00:28:31.034
Bitcoin long term is
363
00:28:31.894 --> 00:28:35.115
that I believe that the fork wars showed us
364
00:28:36.510 --> 00:28:41.730
that Bitcoin is extremely hard to change by default, and that's one of the key value props of Bitcoin.
365
00:28:43.285 --> 00:28:49.145
And to change it significantly, particularly to have a hard fork, you need to basically have this groundswell
366
00:28:49.605 --> 00:28:49.925
of,
367
00:28:51.090 --> 00:28:57.750
support for it. And it's really hard to measure. You can't really measure it until after you fork, so it's like a very rough consensus type of situation.
368
00:28:59.924 --> 00:29:04.264
But, ultimately, the way I look at it is the value of Bitcoin is
369
00:29:05.764 --> 00:29:06.264
abstractly
370
00:29:06.565 --> 00:29:07.384
in the
371
00:29:08.110 --> 00:29:13.250
in the actual UTXO set, in the actual ledger of transactions. This is a this is a
372
00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:15.250
basic living document,
373
00:29:15.870 --> 00:29:17.410
living ledger of
374
00:29:18.265 --> 00:29:21.085
everyone's wealth over time. That's immutable.
375
00:29:24.345 --> 00:29:24.845
So
376
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.860
if there was, for some reason, some kind of thing that we needed to,
377
00:29:33.455 --> 00:29:36.195
if there was some reason we needed to change Bitcoin
378
00:29:36.655 --> 00:29:38.674
and add something to Bitcoin or
379
00:29:39.270 --> 00:29:42.570
adopt some kind of new technology that doesn't exist today,
380
00:29:45.110 --> 00:29:53.165
if we hit a a a point where, like, there was a lot of there was a lot of pain, there was a lot of push, there was a lot of
381
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:56.019
support consensus
382
00:29:56.399 --> 00:29:56.899
around
383
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:00.419
changing Bitcoin to that thing,
384
00:30:01.715 --> 00:30:02.934
there would be a hard fork,
385
00:30:03.395 --> 00:30:05.655
and that, potentially, that hard fork
386
00:30:06.995 --> 00:30:09.255
could become the dominant chain. Right.
387
00:30:10.460 --> 00:30:18.480
And if you were holding Bitcoin, you could just go into a coma. You can go to sleep and just not even pay attention to it. You have on you have on both chains anyway. Right.
388
00:30:19.655 --> 00:30:27.275
But, ultimately, whichever one the market values as the sounder money is the one that succeeds. I mean, because the thing is, like, BCash,
389
00:30:28.570 --> 00:30:29.950
and then later, SV,
390
00:30:30.410 --> 00:30:32.750
like, they had just really shitty developers
391
00:30:33.530 --> 00:30:37.875
running it. There there was no real momentum or motivation to change
392
00:30:38.435 --> 00:30:42.455
to it. Like, I I I think it's caught like, people should be careful about
393
00:30:42.835 --> 00:30:43.335
extrapolating
394
00:30:43.635 --> 00:30:45.255
too much from that situation.
395
00:30:45.610 --> 00:30:48.270
Is there not could there not be a situation where
396
00:30:48.970 --> 00:30:49.710
there was,
397
00:30:51.370 --> 00:30:51.850
basically
398
00:30:52.730 --> 00:30:56.525
first of all, anyone can fork at any time. No one stop them. That's part of Bitcoin. Right?
399
00:30:57.225 --> 00:31:00.605
Do you do you think there could ever be a situation where there is a fork?
400
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.140
That's not the Unix time related
401
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:06.900
that was successful?
402
00:31:09.495 --> 00:31:11.355
403
00:31:12.215 --> 00:31:16.955
just one note about b cache. Right? It it required a second hard fork almost immediately
404
00:31:18.010 --> 00:31:18.510
because
405
00:31:19.529 --> 00:31:22.429
planning for a hard course hard fork is really hard.
406
00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:29.665
And you mentioned that it's quality of developers that there wasn't enough. I you know, there there were some time on it
407
00:31:30.285 --> 00:31:46.674
to say, okay. Hey, we're we're actually introducing a reason for another hard fork within weeks. Right. And so, you you know, you don't want that first hard fork followed by a second emergency hard fork because then you just lose all credibility, but Right. So, you want it planned ahead. I think if there's a Bitcoin hard fork with strong consensus,
408
00:31:47.294 --> 00:31:49.955
it will probably have a 5 or 10 year,
409
00:31:52.095 --> 00:31:56.580
a 5 or 10 year It won't be like an impulse thing. Right. It'll be like,
410
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.700
hey. Everybody remember, in 10 years, we're we're forking. You know? Get ready. 10 years. Make sure your stuff is ready. Right?
411
00:32:04.034 --> 00:32:06.294
People will still wait till the last minute. You know? But
412
00:32:06.595 --> 00:32:11.894
Everyone will last. Big, long advance on it. There's big, long advanced runway on it.
413
00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:15.060
There's maybe something with
414
00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:19.460
maybe something with quantum attack. If a quantum attack becomes apparent,
415
00:32:20.415 --> 00:32:24.675
416
00:32:24.975 --> 00:32:31.700
Right? Right. That's why I thought about it because we were talking about space. Right. Like, we have no fucking idea what's gonna happen in space. However,
417
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.160
418
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.860
we think is at least a universal language. So,
419
00:32:39.175 --> 00:32:48.210
if you can if you can prove something mathematically, then maybe that that proof would hold everywhere in the universe. So I don't know. Well, like, one of the things I took away from BCash was,
420
00:32:50.270 --> 00:32:52.130
421
00:32:53.894 --> 00:32:54.394
And
422
00:32:54.774 --> 00:32:56.794
then the other takeaway is that
423
00:32:57.255 --> 00:32:58.875
only one fork will be successful.
424
00:32:59.414 --> 00:33:00.315
425
00:33:01.150 --> 00:33:03.169
426
00:33:03.630 --> 00:33:06.690
the other one's gonna trend to 0 is my is my,
427
00:33:09.905 --> 00:33:13.845
is basically is my thesis. Right. And so the question is,
428
00:33:14.145 --> 00:33:15.525
will there ever be one
429
00:33:16.225 --> 00:33:17.345
that is not the
430
00:33:18.710 --> 00:33:22.570
because, presumably, with the the UNIX thing, the time code thing,
431
00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:36.840
there'll be a hard fork, but no one will keep the chances that someone tries to keep the original chain alive is is probably very minimal just because why would you do that? You still have a you have a ticking time bomb on the back end.
432
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:44.515
So so I would almost say that that's probably not even relevant to discussion for that reason. Well, do they I think I think that the hard fork,
433
00:33:45.455 --> 00:33:47.554
434
00:33:47.910 --> 00:34:01.075
does it preserve the ASIC compatibility with the existing Of course. Install base? Or does it, like Well, if you take that out, then it's it then you're a whole different ballgame. Right? Okay. So it's so it's AC compatible. The miners It's still shot 256.
435
00:34:01.935 --> 00:34:04.275
436
00:34:05.140 --> 00:34:07.080
437
00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:15.325
incentive to be on the winning chain because the other one's going to 0. They have to they have to choose. Right. Like, I've said many times with Ethereum and the proof of stake thing,
438
00:34:16.265 --> 00:34:18.605
439
00:34:18.905 --> 00:34:20.525
every incentive to just continue
440
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:31.005
to continue on the original chain. There's no they have they have absolutely nothing to lose Right. Because they can't buy the new chain. Now their hardware is all worthless. Maybe ETC will come back. The ETC people are gonna
441
00:34:31.305 --> 00:34:35.244
I don't think so. I think if they ever actually successfully do an ETH,
442
00:34:36.029 --> 00:34:39.410
fork to proof of stake, which is still yet to be seen if that actually happens
443
00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:41.650
soon, soon, 2 weeks.
444
00:34:42.885 --> 00:34:48.665
I think the miners just continue the original chain. I think they just fork out the difficulty bomb or whatever, and then they just continue,
445
00:34:49.445 --> 00:34:51.785
because they have absolutely nothing to lose. I think,
446
00:34:52.640 --> 00:35:01.460
I said I like the adversarial stuff when it happens on Bitcoin. I like it even more when it happens on shit coins because it doesn't affect my money. Right. So I think that could be, like, the new
447
00:35:01.785 --> 00:35:03.245
fork war learning experience
448
00:35:03.705 --> 00:35:05.565
for, like, the new class without
449
00:35:06.105 --> 00:35:16.740
450
00:35:17.655 --> 00:35:20.295
451
00:35:20.775 --> 00:35:24.775
the scam that is Greenpeace, and you can Right. Hashtag change the code. I think that,
452
00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:28.150
453
00:35:28.690 --> 00:35:32.470
fork at some point to try to be compliance friendly, ESG friendly, whatever.
454
00:35:32.849 --> 00:35:42.325
455
00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:45.100
456
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.140
did have
457
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:49.740
a sizable value relative to the main chain
458
00:35:50.125 --> 00:35:57.585
459
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:01.260
Flip guys were ESG from? And then and then they'll all
460
00:36:01.560 --> 00:36:05.020
bag hold the proof of stake fork. While we And then and then
461
00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:10.204
462
00:36:10.505 --> 00:36:13.644
463
00:36:14.184 --> 00:36:15.164
464
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.200
hard fork the supply cap.
465
00:36:19.140 --> 00:36:22.279
Eventually, at some point. At some point, someone will say, alright.
466
00:36:23.975 --> 00:36:26.235
Annuals you know, after the next having,
467
00:36:26.775 --> 00:36:28.715
annual monetary inflation goes to
468
00:36:29.495 --> 00:36:29.995
0.7%
469
00:36:30.375 --> 00:36:31.755
or something like that.
470
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:33.910
So, harder than gold
471
00:36:35.570 --> 00:36:37.670
and not that much new supply coming online.
472
00:36:38.610 --> 00:36:44.575
So, someone will say, Hey, we need either a constant number or a constant percentage or something
473
00:36:45.115 --> 00:36:45.615
growth
474
00:36:46.235 --> 00:36:46.735
because
475
00:36:47.275 --> 00:36:51.270
inflation people never stop. Right? Right. We gotta have inflation. Gotta have inflation.
476
00:36:52.130 --> 00:37:03.635
So some of the hard fork And, also, like, the transaction fee FUD, which we're already seeing. Every bear market, you hear the fee FUD. Right? It's the death spiral. See? Yeah. The fees drop off, the price drops, and the hash rate goes too big, and the chain dies. That's
477
00:37:04.915 --> 00:37:09.940
478
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:15.220
Transaction fee FUD, energy FUD. It'll probably be, like, in a at a time of low fee environment
479
00:37:15.875 --> 00:37:17.895
while Bitcoin's in a bear cycle.
480
00:37:18.915 --> 00:37:23.415
481
00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:31.250
482
00:37:33.404 --> 00:37:44.820
So, I mean, we have citrinity in the comments. He goes, do you think ride or die freaks, citrinity. Shout out to you. He goes, do you think Bitcoin is fungible? Do you have any concerns with Bitcoin's current fungibility?
483
00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:48.580
Do you think we should be pushing for things like cross input signature aggregation?
484
00:37:49.974 --> 00:37:56.635
485
00:37:57.350 --> 00:37:58.650
Of course, I think we need it
486
00:37:59.110 --> 00:38:02.010
because it makes, you know, it makes coin joints more economically
487
00:38:02.950 --> 00:38:04.650
advantageous than single spends.
488
00:38:06.245 --> 00:38:06.745
Fungibility,
489
00:38:07.845 --> 00:38:09.625
you know, there's a lot of voodoo
490
00:38:10.565 --> 00:38:12.185
chain analysis stuff, and
491
00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:14.090
3rd parties can make your life,
492
00:38:14.390 --> 00:38:16.490
you know, a lot more tough than,
493
00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:18.730
self custody of coins. Right.
494
00:38:19.590 --> 00:38:20.090
So
495
00:38:20.474 --> 00:38:23.615
I think I think a lot of people need to get burned a little harder on that
496
00:38:24.474 --> 00:38:28.095
before they take it seriously. But as long as you're doing self custody,
497
00:38:30.490 --> 00:38:33.869
it's it gets it gets way harder to have the the
498
00:38:34.970 --> 00:38:36.109
the KYC encroachment
499
00:38:36.569 --> 00:38:42.545
500
00:38:42.925 --> 00:38:45.985
like, I've been around the block for a decent amount of time. Yeah.
501
00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:51.230
Like like I said, I think you've been around long I mean, we what like, 20 6 pre 2016,
502
00:38:52.330 --> 00:38:56.190
none of these services had k y pretty much none of them had KYC. Right.
503
00:38:56.555 --> 00:38:58.655
Maybe Coinbase had, like, some light KYC,
504
00:39:00.075 --> 00:39:04.655
but pretty much none of the services that were operating in and around Bitcoin had.
505
00:39:05.490 --> 00:39:13.109
Definitely not by far this this stringent of KYC, but pretty much most of them had no KYC. And then, like, in a matter of 2 years,
506
00:39:13.945 --> 00:39:15.245
it was, like, the frog boiling.
507
00:39:15.705 --> 00:39:21.645
Right? Yep. And now it's just the standard. Like, if you're a newcomer coming into the space, you just assume that's how it's always been. Right.
508
00:39:22.100 --> 00:39:23.480
Like, KYC is
509
00:39:24.100 --> 00:39:33.105
I I still think the majority of state attacks have not happened yet. But KYC is a massive attack on Bitcoin that just Yep. Has been very successful. Like, it there has been
510
00:39:33.665 --> 00:39:38.165
is there there hasn't really been much pushback or It's because we haven't seen the crackdown.
511
00:39:39.560 --> 00:39:40.760
Do you think the
512
00:39:42.200 --> 00:39:47.180
so, I mean, you mentioned we well, so Trinity mentioned cross input signature aggregation, but
513
00:39:47.605 --> 00:39:51.945
you mentioned the value of cross input signature aggregation, which is that CoinJoin
514
00:39:53.045 --> 00:39:54.105
are more,
515
00:39:55.490 --> 00:39:58.390
affordable. They're cheaper than a regular transaction. Right.
516
00:40:01.330 --> 00:40:04.550
They're not cheaper than if you're just holding in a custodial wallet.
517
00:40:05.315 --> 00:40:09.575
No. And I think there's a there's there's something to be said there because,
518
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:21.619
like, I love our open source contributors. I love our developers. I love everyone who works on Bitcoin. But there's a tendency in Bitcoin to focus on
519
00:40:22.204 --> 00:40:24.625
the code, focus on the actual,
520
00:40:26.285 --> 00:40:29.265
internal things of Bitcoin rather than external pressures.
521
00:40:29.930 --> 00:40:37.815
And one of the things I noticed over the last 2 years and, I mean, hopefully, there'll be this will be a massive learning lesson if BlockFi does completely blow up.
522
00:40:38.295 --> 00:40:40.954
But we already know Celsius has blown up. We know Voyager's
523
00:40:41.494 --> 00:40:41.994
basically
524
00:40:42.375 --> 00:40:42.875
insolvent,
525
00:40:44.694 --> 00:40:47.175
probably Nexo, all of these different lending
526
00:40:47.690 --> 00:40:51.230
centralized lending platforms. But when you're talking about incentives, it's like, okay. Well,
527
00:40:51.530 --> 00:40:53.470
even in cross input signature aggregation,
528
00:40:54.330 --> 00:40:59.825
like, it'll be west way less affordable than to just give it to a custodian and get your 6% yield or whatever.
529
00:41:00.365 --> 00:41:12.450
Yeah. That 6% sure worth it at this point, ain't it? But I'm saying, like, that's what Right. Right. You're competing with that. Right? Right. They're the all these Bitcoin privacy sovereign stuff are competing with the incentives of the custodial regulated system. No?
530
00:41:13.045 --> 00:41:17.065
531
00:41:17.684 --> 00:41:18.265
I mean,
532
00:41:18.565 --> 00:41:24.710
533
00:41:25.890 --> 00:41:29.915
this year at the Bitcoin conference was way bigger than the last year 1 because
534
00:41:30.215 --> 00:41:32.635
I I I think it's really cool that a
535
00:41:32.935 --> 00:41:39.820
Latin American country is is making Bitcoin legal tender, but there's 6,000,000 people there. They have a tiny GDP.
536
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:45.980
If every if if if half of retail merchants in America are accepting lightning payments,
537
00:41:46.855 --> 00:41:59.100
538
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:15.830
539
00:42:16.210 --> 00:42:21.194
retailer after another retailer over and over again. Well, the difference is that was all on chain. So, there was this
540
00:42:21.494 --> 00:42:27.035
whole history that was attached with every transaction. Right. And I mean, I know you're a very privacy focused guy.
541
00:42:27.790 --> 00:42:37.010
Me personally, when I spend Bitcoin on chain, there's a massive mental burden. Who am I paying? What is the history on that UTXO? What am I exposing? Am I gonna regret this transaction in 6 years?
542
00:42:37.615 --> 00:42:38.994
You don't have that with lightning.
543
00:42:39.535 --> 00:42:42.595
Right. Yeah. The As a sender. And the privacy the privacy
544
00:42:43.295 --> 00:42:46.520
545
00:42:46.820 --> 00:42:58.154
But there are a lot of foot guns, especially if you're receiving on lightning. There's a lot of ways you can fuck up. Yeah. It's still it's still unknown, and we're still waiting to see if somebody gets burned with lightning.
546
00:42:59.974 --> 00:43:02.075
But then this is where the chow me and mints come in.
547
00:43:02.930 --> 00:43:03.430
Right.
548
00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:12.645
So you make the you have this spectrum of trade offs. Right? And before we talk about that, you know, I'll say that the the node developers, the core developers,
549
00:43:14.145 --> 00:43:15.845
for them, privacy means,
550
00:43:16.385 --> 00:43:18.885
like, nobody can untangle which node
551
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.180
broadcast a transaction, and nobody can untangle the actual
552
00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:25.940
IP location of your node because it's on Tor and, like,
553
00:43:26.385 --> 00:43:30.805
mempool behavior and rebroadcast behavior and all these other things to make the nodes themselves
554
00:43:31.985 --> 00:43:33.685
more private on the Internet
555
00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:38.680
against Eclipse level, perhaps. Network level against Eclipse attackers and things like that, which, like,
556
00:43:39.140 --> 00:43:41.800
that's that's looking forward to ultra,
557
00:43:43.215 --> 00:43:44.355
sophisticated attackers.
558
00:43:45.135 --> 00:43:49.475
Like, someone's saying, hey. We we're gonna eclipse attack all the Bitcoin nodes in another country
559
00:43:49.850 --> 00:43:50.510
or something.
560
00:43:51.050 --> 00:43:53.230
Like, that's the level of stuff they're thinking about.
561
00:43:53.850 --> 00:43:54.350
And
562
00:43:56.330 --> 00:43:58.670
so there so the Bitcoin node itself
563
00:43:59.755 --> 00:44:04.255
improves its own privacy with, you know, every release. They they have little things that tweak privacy
564
00:44:04.555 --> 00:44:10.109
for the node itself. But it's a different type of privacy. Right? Right. So, there's all these different levels.
565
00:44:11.130 --> 00:44:15.309
But we're we're we're talking about, yes, you know, balance and history privacy.
566
00:44:15.944 --> 00:44:26.370
567
00:44:27.710 --> 00:44:31.170
568
00:44:31.705 --> 00:44:35.005
you know, a Fetti Mint or something is layer 2a half, maybe layer 3,
569
00:44:36.665 --> 00:44:37.725
you have a
570
00:44:38.025 --> 00:44:39.485
a menu of trade offs.
571
00:44:39.809 --> 00:44:40.309
Right?
572
00:44:40.849 --> 00:44:41.670
And so
573
00:44:42.529 --> 00:44:46.789
you you trade off you know, lightning, you trade off locking up your funds
574
00:44:47.625 --> 00:44:50.685
for the instant settlement and having to be online.
575
00:44:50.985 --> 00:44:51.485
Right?
576
00:44:52.025 --> 00:44:56.285
With the Chaomian Mint, you trade off custody and maybe inflation assurances,
577
00:44:57.130 --> 00:44:59.150
but you get pretty much perfect privacy.
578
00:44:59.849 --> 00:45:01.789
Right? Among your an onset.
579
00:45:02.089 --> 00:45:05.470
580
00:45:06.065 --> 00:45:07.285
581
00:45:07.665 --> 00:45:08.484
So, like,
582
00:45:08.785 --> 00:45:12.805
it's like, oh, it's one of those 10 people that paid the lightning invoice. But but how do you
583
00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:15.750
how can you connect those dots all the way through?
584
00:45:16.210 --> 00:45:16.710
Because
585
00:45:17.089 --> 00:45:19.270
the the you interface with the Chaumian,
586
00:45:20.290 --> 00:45:21.190
with the Mint
587
00:45:21.994 --> 00:45:24.655
nodes on tor and all this sort of stuff. So,
588
00:45:25.515 --> 00:45:26.655
I I think that
589
00:45:27.675 --> 00:45:37.030
I think that some a couple minutes will get very large, and the announcement will be pretty big, and it'll be And see, this is where I impossible. Obi disagrees. So, like,
590
00:45:38.234 --> 00:45:42.494
591
00:45:43.835 --> 00:45:46.750
And Obi disagrees with me on this. He thinks there's gonna be a
592
00:45:47.310 --> 00:45:59.755
primarily small community impediments. Right. I agree with you that I think there'll be a couple really big ones, and then there'll be ideally 100, thousands of small ones that are all interoperable with each other. Right.
593
00:46:00.455 --> 00:46:04.155
But there's definitely a strong argument. If they're competing on uptime and fees
594
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:11.180
and potentially privacy, but a lot of people don't care about privacy, so maybe they're not really competing on the the onset as much.
595
00:46:12.904 --> 00:46:14.605
There's an there's a,
596
00:46:16.345 --> 00:46:18.924
kind of an economies of scale thing going on.
597
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:26.180
Right. Ethan Waldman: Right? Where you want to go for the bigger, more reputable ones that have maybe lower fees. Plus think about like,
598
00:46:27.575 --> 00:46:29.755
599
00:46:30.055 --> 00:46:31.434
Bitcoiners. Right? Right.
600
00:46:32.055 --> 00:46:34.315
Well, here comes here comes some big mint
601
00:46:34.930 --> 00:46:36.790
run by a few nims.
602
00:46:37.970 --> 00:46:39.589
The nims are all, you know,
603
00:46:41.010 --> 00:46:41.750
mint members.
604
00:46:42.369 --> 00:46:42.869
And
605
00:46:45.385 --> 00:46:49.245
the random pleb says, hey. I'll just hook up to that one. It's not They've been running for 8 years.
606
00:46:49.785 --> 00:46:51.245
607
00:46:51.625 --> 00:46:57.130
608
00:46:57.589 --> 00:47:01.609
big, and maybe there's 2 or 3 big mints. Maybe it's just one huge one, and then, like,
609
00:47:02.055 --> 00:47:04.155
somehow it gets taken down. I don't know. And then
610
00:47:05.895 --> 00:47:10.395
that causes it. And and then this is also, like, as the adoption of Bitcoin grows and grows and grows,
611
00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:13.430
maybe at some point, you get to these community mints.
612
00:47:13.970 --> 00:47:15.590
Because you could you could imagine,
613
00:47:15.890 --> 00:47:24.635
like, a small village, a small little ecosystem with a 2 of 3 a 2 of 3 men with 3 I mean, that's what what Galloy is basically doing, but without privacy.
614
00:47:25.015 --> 00:47:36.370
615
00:47:36.680 --> 00:47:37.180
so
616
00:47:37.805 --> 00:47:41.665
my favorite thing in Bitcoin is just to get as many people to hate me as possible.
617
00:47:42.845 --> 00:47:43.345
So
618
00:47:43.645 --> 00:47:47.185
I've been getting a lot of shit from the privacy crowd on
619
00:47:48.430 --> 00:47:53.150
talking about Federated Charmaine Mint so often. Mhmm. And, primarily, it's because of the custodial risk,
620
00:47:54.825 --> 00:48:00.365
which is reduced because it's federated, but still exists. There's still custodial risk. Right? And
621
00:48:01.945 --> 00:48:04.605
this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about
622
00:48:05.210 --> 00:48:06.430
dev culture in Bitcoin,
623
00:48:06.890 --> 00:48:09.150
is that there's a lack of pragmatic
624
00:48:09.609 --> 00:48:10.109
tools.
625
00:48:10.810 --> 00:48:16.255
Like, okay. Let's look at our sit situation right now. Let's see. And, like, you brought up liquid earlier.
626
00:48:16.715 --> 00:48:19.455
I would say Federated Charmaine Mints to me is more
627
00:48:19.755 --> 00:48:23.375
to most Bitcoin is the better comparison rather than liquid that nobody uses
628
00:48:25.230 --> 00:48:27.089
is is while the satoshi,
629
00:48:27.950 --> 00:48:28.690
which is,
630
00:48:29.230 --> 00:48:32.690
you know, we can talk all day about how everyone should hold self custody,
631
00:48:33.145 --> 00:48:41.565
but I've seen some hardcore Bitcoiners go down to El Salvador. And when they send their picture of them buying beer or whatever with Bitcoin, buying pupusas with Bitcoin, they're using Wallet of Satoshi.
632
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:47.460
So the question is, okay. So how can we make a wallet that's as easy as Wallet as Satoshi as cheap as Wallet as Satoshi,
633
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:51.300
but gives you better privacy and has reduced custodial risk? So that's
634
00:48:52.015 --> 00:48:53.155
right. When I'm framing
635
00:48:53.535 --> 00:48:55.075
Federman's, I kind of think
636
00:48:55.615 --> 00:48:56.515
it's more,
637
00:48:57.934 --> 00:48:58.434
effective
638
00:48:58.734 --> 00:49:05.710
to talk about it from an improved custodial lightning wallet point of view rather than an improved federation model.
639
00:49:06.089 --> 00:49:21.359
And, again, it's the trade off. It's a trade off. Like, big corners will have a bunch of options. They can go to KYC. They can go here. They can go there. They can hold self custody. They can do self custody with, like, a hosted multi sig provider and have zero privacy. And this is this is the Twitter effect. Right? You make a tweet about something,
640
00:49:21.740 --> 00:49:31.575
641
00:49:31.955 --> 00:49:43.100
know? Because I'm talking about this one thing, and it you know? And a lot of people have this sort of absolutist, like, we have to have the one solution to rule them all. Right. You know? Oh, I don't like lightning because
642
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:52.700
of some either FUD or just certain thing about lightning. I don't like that. So I'll just use main chain. Okay. Fine. You use main chain, but lightning is providing a lot of value for a lot of people.
643
00:49:53.420 --> 00:49:54.160
You know?
644
00:49:55.180 --> 00:50:00.880
Xiaomi and Mints are still in dev, so we can't go out there and see what see what they're like in reality, but I think they're coming soon, and
645
00:50:01.985 --> 00:50:04.245
that'll be another set of trade offs that,
646
00:50:04.625 --> 00:50:06.725
hey, those people are using it and
647
00:50:07.185 --> 00:50:08.405
it works. Great.
648
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:13.420
649
00:50:14.040 --> 00:50:17.640
we're just it's like our space discussion. We're just theorizing and,
650
00:50:18.145 --> 00:50:24.484
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm very hopeful. I think it'll be out soon, and then we can actually have better discussions about it once we can actually play around with it.
651
00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:28.369
Clark, I mean, I appreciate your time. I know you have to hit the road.
652
00:50:28.990 --> 00:50:33.810
We're about 50 minutes in, but, before we get to final thoughts here,
653
00:50:34.515 --> 00:50:40.455
I just wanted to say a little story about Clark. So Clark has been a very good Internet friend for a long time.
654
00:50:41.860 --> 00:50:43.480
655
00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:47.400
656
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:50.685
we left Brooklyn when they shut us down from
657
00:50:51.165 --> 00:50:54.305
everything. And we were doing Airbnb's all over the place, and we were,
658
00:50:56.765 --> 00:51:08.700
I would never disclose what our location was. We were doing rabbit hole recap every week. I would but we were doing Airbnb's all over the place. People knew we were doing Airbnb's all over the place. And we stayed at this really nice place in Maine,
659
00:51:09.464 --> 00:51:11.244
in Portland for a week,
660
00:51:11.625 --> 00:51:14.525
and I had this roof deck that I would work on every day.
661
00:51:15.385 --> 00:51:16.605
And I took a picture
662
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:21.060
of my laptop and my coffee on the roof deck,
663
00:51:21.520 --> 00:51:22.020
and
664
00:51:22.560 --> 00:51:26.900
it was just a really great view, really great place to work. And I held it I held it in my phone's gallery.
665
00:51:28.944 --> 00:51:36.484
I held it in my phone's gallery, and I 3 weeks later, I posted it on Twitter, and I said, good morning, fam, or something like that with picture.
666
00:51:37.170 --> 00:51:37.670
And
667
00:51:38.770 --> 00:51:40.870
there was some clues there, but not many.
668
00:51:41.490 --> 00:51:44.310
And Clark was the only freak who messaged me
669
00:51:44.765 --> 00:51:46.865
that he decoded all of the clues.
670
00:51:47.245 --> 00:51:49.025
Like he he looked at the skyline.
671
00:51:49.565 --> 00:51:52.065
He told he sent me a Google map,
672
00:51:52.600 --> 00:51:53.100
like,
673
00:51:53.400 --> 00:52:08.850
direct coordinates of the roof I was sitting on when I took the picture. And he was like, dude, you need to take down this tweet. And I was like, Ah, that was 3 weeks ago. But but that's fucking awesome. You want to talk about that a little bit? Like, that was fucking ridiculous. Right. So,
674
00:52:09.730 --> 00:52:17.990
675
00:52:18.744 --> 00:52:19.244
but,
676
00:52:19.944 --> 00:52:20.444
yeah.
677
00:52:20.744 --> 00:52:23.805
So so, you know, in the picture, there's a river,
678
00:52:25.065 --> 00:52:27.440
and there's some, you know, petrochemical
679
00:52:27.740 --> 00:52:36.160
tanks and some other roofline features. So I basically just got on Google and started looking you said morning. So You literally sent me a picture with the exact house.
680
00:52:36.605 --> 00:52:41.025
And then just the comment was bro. Bro. That was the Why you what are you doing?
681
00:52:41.885 --> 00:52:42.785
What you doing?
682
00:52:43.244 --> 00:52:45.505
Yeah. So I just looked for I just looked for
683
00:52:45.870 --> 00:52:47.970
rivers that were kind of heading in the right direction.
684
00:52:48.510 --> 00:52:59.385
And in the morning in the morning time, given the shadows, and, you know, I kept going up the kept going up the eastern seaboard until I found this one that seemed to match, and I kinda honed in on it. It took me about half an hour.
685
00:53:00.005 --> 00:53:02.265
686
00:53:03.430 --> 00:53:03.930
immediately.
687
00:53:05.350 --> 00:53:08.810
My first response was all caps, lmao, well played. But
688
00:53:09.190 --> 00:53:14.765
I said, how'd you figure that out? He goes, I hunted around on Google Maps for a river that ran northeast.
689
00:53:15.385 --> 00:53:28.300
Your pick had oil tanks in the background and a marina in the river, so that was the secondary clue. That was your explanation at the time. Also, our previous conversation there was about Scrip Cash. Hey. Scrip Cash. That's a Yeah. Yeah. Shout out Scrip.
690
00:53:28.625 --> 00:53:37.924
But, yeah, you were the only you're the only freak that figured it out. I was wondering if someone was gonna I didn't think someone was gonna pinpoint it that hard, but I was wondering if someone was gonna at least figure out Portland.
691
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:44.140
692
00:53:44.520 --> 00:53:47.974
need more freaks in Portland. Portland, Maine, we know you're out there. It's a good
693
00:53:48.275 --> 00:53:55.940
694
00:53:57.040 --> 00:53:59.300
the Maine Seacoast is absolutely gorgeous.
695
00:54:00.560 --> 00:54:04.980
And Portland's a really cool city, and also the politics kinda worry me a little bit, but
696
00:54:07.345 --> 00:54:13.605
we really enjoyed it in Portland. At least not, you know, like owning or renting there, just, like, staying there for a couple weeks. Right.
697
00:54:14.145 --> 00:54:16.810
Anyway, Clark, it was a pleasure to have you on dispatch.
698
00:54:17.270 --> 00:54:21.290
It's been a long time coming. It's a pleasure to have you in the new studio. I think your guest number
699
00:54:22.935 --> 00:54:29.115
6 or 7 in the new studio, we're gonna have you put a sticker down, sign in with your name and your block height.
700
00:54:30.230 --> 00:54:31.610
Before we wrap up here,
701
00:54:32.070 --> 00:54:33.530
hit us with some final thoughts.
702
00:54:35.430 --> 00:54:37.690
703
00:54:38.645 --> 00:54:41.625
Keep the walls fortified. Keep the zombie hordes out.
704
00:54:42.965 --> 00:54:44.265
We're all gonna make it.
705
00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:48.400
706
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:52.319
707
00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:53.839
write the history books,
708
00:54:54.345 --> 00:54:58.045
we're gonna be savage to all the clown world that's going on right now.
709
00:54:58.424 --> 00:55:02.444
There'll be a chapter called clown world, and we'll get to write it, and it'll be amazing.
710
00:55:02.910 --> 00:55:08.130
711
00:55:08.910 --> 00:55:14.695
Thank you, Clark. Thank you for joining. I hope your travels going forward from here are easy and pleasurable.
712
00:55:15.395 --> 00:55:20.135
Shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat on this lazy Sunday afternoon.
713
00:55:20.950 --> 00:55:22.810
As I said in the previous reps,
714
00:55:24.550 --> 00:55:31.045
dispatch schedule will be more fluid going forward. They will be prioritizing in person reps with people that are here at the studio
715
00:55:31.744 --> 00:55:33.285
because they're just fucking awesome.
716
00:55:34.865 --> 00:55:37.990
If you wanna get notified of those, subscribe on Twitch, twitch.tv/dispatch.
717
00:55:41.170 --> 00:55:44.950
I am bending the knee, and there will be a YouTube channel up as well.
718
00:55:45.435 --> 00:55:49.455
Put Citadel dispatch dedicated YouTube channel, so you can subscribe there as well.
719
00:55:50.075 --> 00:55:56.810
And, obviously, the Twitter account and the matrix chat. I always tell the ride or die freaks in the matrix chat always know ahead of time
720
00:55:58.950 --> 00:56:03.195
if there's gonna be a dispatch and what time it will be and who will be on it.
721
00:56:04.315 --> 00:56:06.415
So with all that said, thank you all for your support,
722
00:56:06.875 --> 00:56:18.760
especially those people that are sending via podcasting 2.0 apps, but also to anyone who's subscribing, leaving reviews, and sharing with their friends and family. I love you all. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Stay on with Stack Sats.
