April 26, 2022

CD63: building nostr, a censorship resistant alternative to twitter with @fiatjaf, @jb55, and @MrKukks

EPISODE: 63

BLOCK: 733681

PRICE: 2615 sats per dollar

TOPICS: nostr, twitter, mastodon, bluesky, tradeoffs, pain points, spam, discovery, different use cases, more dev attention

Full Transcript: https://chowcollection.medium.com/matt-odell-citadel-dispatch-e63-building-nostr-a-censorship-resistant-alternative-to-twitter-691175f75eea

@fiatjaf: https://twitter.com/fiatjaf

@jb55: https://twitter.com/jb55

@MrKukks: https://twitter.com/MrKukks

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00:04 - Intro Clip: Fidelity Investments allowing Bitcoin in retirement plans

08:39 - Building a censorship-resistant alternative to Twitter

43:46 - Using proof of work to prevent crypto spammers on threads

44:18 - Different approaches to filtering and preventing spam

45:19 - Implementing proof of work on the relay side

46:35 - Other approaches to prevent spam, like Google reCAPTCHA and invite-only relays

50:14 - Using SATs as a direct incentive for relay operators to prevent spam

53:12 - Selective filtering of posts based on tags or metadata

56:01 - Different use cases for Nostr, such as private Twitter, Slack-like organization communication, and decentralized marketplaces

01:09:49 - Potential use of Nostr for encrypted messaging and alternative to onion messages

01:25:44 - PGP sign message and character count

01:26:10 - Implementing likes, retweets, and lightning tips

01:27:04 - Reputation system and decentralized marketplaces

WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/23/2024 1:45:47 PM
Duration: 6163.122
Channels: 1

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Bitcoin bull. You might like this news. Fidelity Investments plan to allow investors to put a Bitcoin account in their 4 one k's, the first major retirement plan provider

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to do so. It'll be up to employers that use Fidelity to decide whether

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to put Bitcoin on the menu of options under the plan. Fidelity would allow savers to allocate as much as 20% of their retirement savings to Bitcoin.

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Company expects to expand offerings to other digital assets in the future. The price of Bitcoin,

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right now is $40,493.

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It had been at 38,000 just yesterday. So,

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maybe moving a little bit on that news.

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Pretty amazing. I don't know if I want up to 20%, but I imagine employers

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might might control that. I mean, it's, a, whether it's on the menu onto itself, and then, b, how much you could put in. It's got a long way to go. It is pointed out in in some detail with with the labor department has issued guidelines

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that make it very difficult for employers to CYA,

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if they were to do this. It says extreme caution,

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exercise extreme care before consider,

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before they consider, adding a crypto option to 4 1 k plans.

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If they do so, they're they could expect regulators to ask questions like,

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how the hell do your duties of prudence and loyalty

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with that guidance from the labor department, how do you square that? Well, if you have to be very, very difficult. Lose a lot of money in it, you might be on the hook. You would. Point for making them whole. And Bitcoin,

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which has soared depending on when you got into it, is down what? 40% from its highs? Yeah. I mean, it's the You're talking about a pretty volatile move. However, the story in the Wall Street Journal does point out just how mainstream this has become. I think Fidelity estimates that there are 80,000,000

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US individual

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investors who at low own at least some form of of a digital currency and that's that's pretty significant. It it the Labor Department guidance is so

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I don't know, prohibitive that Fidelity

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along with other trade groups have asked

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have written to the Labor Department asking to withdraw that that comment that guidance. So So I don't know how how widespread the adoption would be. Abigail Johnson, who runs Fidelity, has been one of the she was an early

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crypto and Bitcoin bull. So she's she's I mean, she and she's been running Fidelity.

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I think they've been wanting to do something like this for a long time. Also, curious

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trading platform for this since 2018, so they did get into this pretty early. It it it's What the what the fee structure

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would be, I imagine it might be a higher fee

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on buying and selling Bitcoin. That's cynical. One of the fascinating things Yep. That actually Warren Buffett,

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has mentioned over the years, I think, Becky, is some of the 401 k plans that that charge high fees, charge low fees to the company, meaning high fees onto you, the individual, low fees on the company. The ones with low fees for the individuals usually charge high fees to the company. So it'd be very interesting to see what companies are willing to pay for this option. In fact, that's how it's structured. Sidelity is a behemoth. And it just in 401 k assets, 2,700,000,000,000

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Yeah. In assets under administration.

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And they do have you know, they're they're kind of crypto friendly, but, they're they're kind of ahead of of regulate

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later regulators where in the Labor Department. We'll see. And you make the fair point. This is gonna be up to employers as to whether or not they wanna Right. Go head to head with it.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive live show about Bitcoin, freedom, privacy, and open source software.

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As always,

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Last but not least,

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shout out to all the freaks,

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who join us in the live chat during the show. Our live chat is self hosted on Matrix. The easiest way to get there is citadel dispatch.com

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We have over a 1000 ride or die Bitcoiners

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in this chat.

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It definitely pops when we are live.

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We

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love the participation that happens

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during those during these live shows, but it's also constantly,

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just having really great Bitcoin conversation

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and associated topics,

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during the week. So

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consider joining us. It is it is a really great chat, and it's you know, I know I when I say the word matrix, a bunch of you freak the fuck out and

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think, I'm overwhelmed. I can't handle it. Just follow the steps. It's easier it's easier than you think it is.

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Okay. Well, with all that said,

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we have a very important topic today, a very,

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timely topic,

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and that is

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building a censorship resistant alternative to Twitter.

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The project in this case is called Noister,

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or it's pronounced some way. No one really knows because it was born online in text.

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We can debate how it's how it's supposed to be pronounced pretty soon.

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But we have 3 guys, 3 great guys,

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joining us who have dove deep into Nostra,

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to join us for this conversation and go through the ins and outs

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of of what trade offs lie with Nostra and what it attempts to solve.

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So with all that said, I will introduce our first guest who's a return guest, Fiat Jeff. How's it going, Fiat Jeff?

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Doing fine. Yes.

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Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for coming back on. I know you you were a little bit hesitant,

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but it's great to have you back. Yeah.

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And we got, JB 55. Will, how's it going?

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It's going well. It's great to be here.

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Thanks for coming on. And we have mister Kooks. Mister Kooks, how's it going?

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Doing good. Thanks for having me. Awesome.

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So, obviously,

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Twitter has been in the news recently because Elon Musk decided to purchase it.

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I guess before we go there, that intro conversation, that was CNBC.

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I know it's completely unrelated to this, but I just feel like I should mention that it existed.

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But if you if you were listening to that intro conversation, it was,

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the Squawk Box hosts talking about,

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Fidelity moving into the retirement account game in Bitcoin land

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because, I guess, most people are gonna just hold Bitcoin with 3rd parties and have a bunch of labor regulations attached to them, but that's for a whole different discussion.

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So, anyway, Twitter, was in the news today this week.

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It's being bought by Elon Musk.

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All of a sudden, a bunch of people that disagree with the politics of Elon Musk,

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realize that Twitter is a massive centralized third party,

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and whoever controls it,

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controls the narrative that goes on on on Twitter and can silence voices they disagree with.

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Obviously, people who disagreed with the previous Twitter leadership have already dealt with that, and they're now happy that they have a a new leader,

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at Twitter.

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But you guys have all been quietly working on and building

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Nostra,

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which attempts to

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solve that centralized third party issue to a degree.

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So now more than ever, I think, you know,

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it is a very important topic for discussion, which is this idea of having

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essentially a technical solution,

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to broad censorship of speech on the Internet.

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So where should we start? What is,

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you wanna Fiat, Jeff, you wanna start with just a no stir show. Why should people care?

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Well, I don't know if they should care now that, you know, must but we should just give up.

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And just give up. And cancel.

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But but no. Yeah. I think I think no, sir,

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is conceived as an idea that could work, like, that could scale.

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It's not like the future peer fantasy that's completely that has been tried many times and failed.

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And because people don't wanna run demos on their computers that are online all the time, and

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they don't wanna

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yeah. Because these feature peer,

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attempted that we're trying to pass, they all

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more or less require

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some involvement that most people would have. So

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takes a different approach, and, also,

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it's a different approach from stuff like methadone that

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because Methodon

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has a mistake has a problem is

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the

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the names the Macedon servers,

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they own your identity, so you can't move very easily. You can't you can't be banned, and then you lose your audience, etcetera.

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And I think it combines

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these these 2 things, like the,

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public key cryptography,

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with the the idea of

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servers,

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like, floating around the Internet

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and people using these

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rogue servers to connect to each other.

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Yeah. That's not a very good explanation, but it's the

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the idea.

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So if I recall correctly,

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if I recall correctly, I

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mean, obviously, Bitcoin Twitter has had a bunch of issues with Twitter censorship.

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I mean, I've been personally shadow banned for 4 months now.

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And just Bitcoin ideology in general, it's a little bit ridiculous that we're all basically relying on this massive centralized third party.

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So in the past,

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I mean, I think there's been maybe, like, 5 or 6 large attempted exoduses

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to Mastodon,

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which is a Twitter alternative,

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that have essentially failed. I mean, people have moved over there, used them for a little bit, but everyone just kinda comes back to Twitter.

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And then Twitter itself announced their blue sky program

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or their blue sky project, which is supposed to be separate of Twitter that's trying to attempt to kind of solve the same thing.

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And then after that announcement,

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I feel like

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you, Fiat, Jeff got a little bit,

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disillusioned. You were like, everything has trade offs, and the trade off balance they're making is just does not make any sense. And then you launched Nostra. Right?

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Yeah. The Blue Sky, I think it was launched so much so much time ago. I don't even remember what I thought, but

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to this day, they they don't they

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didn't publish what they're going to do. Like, they have no idea or maybe they have, but they

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they're not telling us what's the idea. But from the from the things I've read and people they hired,

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it's going to be something

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IPFS based or

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something very peer to peer.

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Yeah. I joined their Discord, and it was just very, like, a lot of nonsense, a lot of shit. I'm sorry, like, blue sky people if you're, like, really sincere about it. But, like, last time I joined their Discord, I'm, like, are these guys serious? Like, I don't know. It was just disappointing. So,

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luckily, we have Nostra as an alternative. Yeah. Like, 6 months

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into after the blue sky thing was announced, I think I I came up with the roster, and I sent to a bunch of people to talk. And then I think,

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someone

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someone from Twitter,

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a guy

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contacted me and told me to join a private

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Blue Sky Chat. Then I joined there, and all I saw was a bunch of like, there were, like, 20 people there.

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And

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each of these were creators of

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peer to peer projects that were trying to do more or less the same thing.

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And they were just talking about their their own projects. And I saw, like, how can a new protocol emerge from this?

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These people, they all have they all have their own interest,

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and there's nothing that's going to emerge from this.

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Yeah. What I really liked about when I when I first jumped in and started reading the the Nostra, I really recommend people go to fiatjaf's,

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GitHub repository and read, like, the motivation, which kinda spawned this idea. And it really just comes out of all the pain points, because we're all really just searching for this decentralized protocol that will be the Twitter replacement. And maybe Mastodon or Activity Pub was you know, it was a potential solution, but it has so many it has so many censorship problems, if not worse censorship problems than even Twitter. So,

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I really like how, you know, his post on his GitHub repository really explains why, and I'm sure we'll get into that, but some of the motivations behind its creation. So

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Well, I mean, let's unpack that a little bit. Right? So, I mean, I think everyone knows why Twitter has censorship issues,

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because it's literally just run by a company

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that can choose what what happens and what doesn't happen.

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What are what are the issues present? So everything has trade offs. Right?

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What are the trade offs? What are the issues,

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with the Mastodon activity

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sub approach? So maybe I could explain through my, lived experience of going through multiple Mastodon instances.

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What you really

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is these small communities, and this is fine. You have these small communities where people, they like they like to talk to be like to talk to each other. So one example is the Bitcoin hackers community, and you typically talk about Bitcoin, and that's

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fine. But it's really hard to find

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a not non politically charged community within Mastodon. So if you feel if if it feels like if you ever step out of line for, like, that of that particular,

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political alignment of that instance, you're banned. And once you're banned, it's kinda hard to move your followers, move your list to a new instance. You can do it, but it's just a pain in the ass. So I I feel like I'm constantly have anxiety when I'm on acid on because I'm like, oh, I'm always trying to, like I'm thinking that I'm gonna I I'm forcing myself to censor myself more than I would even on Twitter, which is I don't I don't feel like that was a good headset,

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like, place to be in, and I didn't really feel right if it's gonna be the successor to the censorship resistant successor to Twitter. So

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Yeah. My my experience from Mastodon I joined,

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Mastodon instance many years ago. It's called tooth.cafe.

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I don't know how to pronounce this. Anyway, I just found this and and joined. The guy was saying, oh, I'm accepting people here, so I joined. And then I started using that to talk to the Bitcoin people more more recently.

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The guy the the owner of the incident sent me sent me a message short saying that

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some things I was saying were not allowed on the on his system his instance. So I just stopped it. I think he didn't ban me, but he threatened to ban me. So so it's very sad.

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But one thing I, one problem with the with, like, if if they want to ban you, you you have no recourse and you can't move your followers. There's a thing to move followers, but

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I don't know how how it works. It it only works if the the server cooperates with you. So,

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you need to get permission from from the server admin to actually move your context to the other server, and you need to get permission from the other server as well to go to go through that whole migration process.

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Right. I mean, that's gotta be that's gotta be the key failure of Mastodon. Right? That it's hard to move your own data.

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Yeah. And that's another fail I see is, like, their model

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of replicating content,

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being servers. Because

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if that if there's a bunch of servers, but people from each server are following people from other servers,

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then it ends up, like, all servers having to archive and store all the content from all the other servers.

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And

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it it goes against the idea they had that

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that are niche servers that niche how do I say this? Niche. Whatever.

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Small servers with communities

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that you talk inside, but you always want to talk to other communities too. You you don't always you you you can't choose a community

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and be there forever. Like so you end

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up spreading

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content around multiple servers, and I think this is not good for scalability.

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And Nostra Nostra solves this in a nice way. Like, in my mind, you don't have this yet, but I imagine there will be Nostra relays

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for small communities.

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And the content will be there only. The the content doesn't have to propagate through all the other servers.

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Yeah. And another big issue is that in federated instances would just ban, like, outright in like, whole instances. So, like, I felt like Bitcoin hackers was mostly isolated from the fediverse because most instances would just ban it for, like, right wing content or something even though it's pretty pretty, it's mostly about Bitcoin stuff. So I don't know. It's just so many a lot of issues. It's it's the probably the boiling ocean thing.

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Maybe

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yeah.

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Yeah. I mean, we saw I mean, the biggest example of that was

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Gab.

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Gab uses,

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Mastodon, and their instance is, like, completely blocked off from the rest of the network,

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almost immediately,

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by the other

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by the by the other instances.

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They just block they just block you off,

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which is just it's kind of ironic just

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that you you would think that, like, most Mastodon servers would be led by people who value free speech.

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But for whatever reason, their community over there is just not,

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very far left, I found, just politically, which I felt very, like, it felt very strange for me. Because it was, like, a lot of extremist, like, pro censorship people, which was, like, bizarre.

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I don't know.

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It's weird how that happened. Like, just that the culture developed in a different way. I mean, like, a lot of a lot of what we talk about

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on dispatch is

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open source code, but at the end of the day, you know, there's also a degree on on who is running the code and what their principles are.

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But anyway, so Mastodon

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has been around for a while.

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It seems like it has a lot of technical debt. It's pretty bloated.

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Their trade off decisions didn't really seem like they made the the

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best trade off decisions.

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And so

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you decided to

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start from scratch,

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with different trade offs.

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So how does how does Noister work under the hood?

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Well, the the basic idea is that you have a client, and the client talks to servers,

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different servers or single server, multiple servers, and you fetch posts from these servers and you send posts as well. And everything is signed. We're sure everybody has a a public key, and you sign and you verify signatures.

256
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And that's it. That's the basic the basic idea.

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So how does that look in practice? Like, I

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I went to,

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so, I mean, I'm a noob.

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I

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kind of on principle the only social media I have left is Twitter.

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And I kinda on principle was like, I don't want to do any other social media. I'm just gonna let Twitter die,

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and then be done with social media and just have, like, group chats.

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But then for this show, I obviously was like, well, I gotta

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play around with it before we have no show. And all the all the freaks wanted to wanted to talk about no show. I think it's a really cool project. I have been, like, loosely following it,

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but I haven't really played around with it at depth. So

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I'm gonna be leaning on you guys, but, like, from a new perspective,

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I went to

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well, I went to, like, this website.

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Is it run by you, Theo, Jeff? It's, like, blinky or something?

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You know what I'm talking about? Maybe.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Bromley.netlify.app?

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Yeah. Yeah. That's the first client I did, like,

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proof of concept thing. Actually, I had done all this before, but they were they were very bad, so this one works.

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So you're running that server.

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Right? No. It's it's a that's that's that's a client. Like, they that that's what was entirely on the code side.

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Yeah. It's served by Netlify that is just Oh, but it's running in my browser? Yeah. It's running in your browser.

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You can run that on your on your machine locally. Like, you don't need to trust the FITJEP server at all.

280
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Gotcha.

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Yeah. And I I don't even use, like, Burnlight. I just use, like, my command line to do posts,

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and my iOS set that I'm working on. So it's, like, you have a lot of variety on types of clients you can choose.

283
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So the the servers in question are the relay servers?

284
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Yes. Yep. Yep. And that's, I guess, where I'm my client is broadcast

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Yeah. Your your brand

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comes by default

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subscribed to, like, 5 different,

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Relay servers.

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And

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when you and and you try to read like, when you post something, you send to all of them

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whatever they have said except for not. They they for now, they all will take your post.

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And

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and you follow someone, you follow by PubKey, and then you send a message to all the servers you know. And say, do you have anything from this PubKey? And the servers will send you. Then you they try to show your

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your home screen. Basically, that then you visit a profile of someone

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to ask again to the server, like, what do you have from this specific guy? And then you they'll send it.

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Yeah. So I think that someone distinction to point out in why this is really interesting compared to the other approaches

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is that

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you don't actually have to do a lot to get into the system. Right? So to create an account, you just generate a a private key,

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so your public your public key becomes, like, your account ID, and then you can just send a message. Obviously, this is also could be a downside where you get bots, could be creating accounts and messages all the time,

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but there are some ideas on how this is going to, not be an issue in the future with, like, proof of work and paid relays.

301
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But the it's just a very, these relays are just very dumb. Right? They just take they take in events. You can subscribe to events,

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so and based off of certain keys. So

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if I wanted to follow all updates to people sending me, note sending me notes, then I can just subscribe to my pub key, and then I'll only get events from my pubkey. Or if I wanna,

304
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filter it even further, I could say,

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you know, I want to just listen for all encrypted DMs and maybe not

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specifically, you know, random notes. So it's it's just a very flexible protocol for querying,

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documents from a server and filtering it based off of things you're interested in.

308
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And, and it does it in real time. So it has this, real time aspect, this pub publish subscribe aspect where you can just receive them in real time, which is nice for chat rooms and things like that. So

309
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Yeah. Yeah.

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So go No. Go ahead. Sorry. No. No. You you

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Yeah. So so with with Nostar, I mean, it's very simple to just kind of

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create any model you want. Like, if you wanna create the Twitter model where you just have an account, you create a which which is, which translates to just creating a private key, and then you have a public key, and that's your username,

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and messages on Twitter. So if you wanna create the Twitter model, it's basically to create a tweet. It's just an you create one event, which is signed by your username.

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You push it to a relay, and that would be basically like twitter.com.

315
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But you can actually create, like, a federated system as well. So it's like,

316
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let's say you don't like Twitter. You wanna have your own world. You can do a Twitter

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twitter2.com,

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and that would be your another reading. Just post your messages there as well.

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So it's kind of

320
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it's very easy to model it after

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after

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basically any live

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directory of messages.

324
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Like, the way I was looking at at Nostra at first was more like

325
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a like a marketplace

326
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or or like a directory of sorts.

327
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But,

328
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some of the tests I was doing first, like, some prototypes for for clients for my own self was more like like just emulating Reddit just for the sake of having something a little bit different than a Twitter clone.

329
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And everything is just really easy to translate between between things because Reddit is really kind of the same system as a Twitter post, and then you just have replies and

330
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communities. So it's like traded replies in different areas.

331
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Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'm ranting a bit. No. You know, but, like but that's what makes it somewhat interesting is that, these notes that you're posting

332
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can be viewed and interpreted in different ways. So, you know, let's say I do a post and I you know,

333
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one client might interpret it as a tweet.

334
00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:51.985
And it has has some additional features on the note, which is you can reference other notes. So you instantly from that, you get replies. Right? So now you can reference a thread and and then you can reply to users within a thread.

335
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So this is what Broadlight and Damas, my client, that's what it it kind of renders Twitter like threads. But you could also use it for other things. Like, you could have your server generating

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events,

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for your for your business. Right? And this is, one idea I had where, let's say, you run a private relay for your organization,

338
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and there's different, you know, systems that are generating events within your organization, and you can maybe retweet that within your organization

339
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or, like, reply to it and, like, cc people in your organization. But this could all be within your internal relay

340
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that you could maybe even

341
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if you want to, you can selectively publish it to the to the outside world. So there's all these in in some sense, it's just a a generic information relay system where you can reply,

342
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where notes are linked and and notes can be interpreted in different ways depending on your client. So another example would be imagine you create another view for that thread. Instead of a tweet thread, it's now a document editor. So each post within that Twitter thread is now, like, a paragraph in a document, which is you are now collaborative collaboratively editing,

343
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because there's no reason why you can't have edit events that unmodify other events.

344
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So I think the great thing about no not sure is that it doesn't spec any of this. It just it's, like, it just specs this really dumb,

345
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relay protocol for for notes, but you can write a variety of clients,

346
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that are all kind of interop with each other, which is really fascinating to think of what that could bring about.

347
00:29:15.184 --> 00:29:18.804
I mean, at the at the base level, it's just cryptographically

348
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signed messages being broadcast.

349
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Right?

350
00:29:22.410 --> 00:29:22.910
Yep.

351
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Yeah. It's basically this, and then but then we have, like, as well as very small spec of

352
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the basic format for these messages. And then we have, like, optional

353
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optional specs

354
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that they're they're just if someone wants to interrupt, you know, like, if they they want to 2 clients want to implement the same thing and be compatible with each other,

355
00:29:44.534 --> 00:29:46.235
You could have, like, the the

356
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direct messages thing or group messages

357
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or

358
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Twitter like stuff. But then you can render that as that as Reddit stuff, or you can have, like, messages that are meant to be rendered just only as

359
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red threads, not as Twitter posts, for example. And then the client needs to support the Reddit thing to to render these. And I think,

360
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multitude of clients when they're, like, having different interfaces

361
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will rise, but they all will talk the same

362
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the same interface with the relays. And I think the the this interoperability

363
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automatic interoperability

364
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will be will be very nice.

365
00:30:25.450 --> 00:30:36.025
Yeah. And and one thing that and and since nothing is really spec'd, I've been actually working on a few, NIPS right now. So those are called those are what they're what we're calling, they're kinda, like, similar to DIPS, but they're Nostra improvement proposals.

366
00:30:37.205 --> 00:30:38.905
So you get a little chuckle on that one. But,

367
00:30:39.765 --> 00:30:48.789
but there's, you know, there's some things that are just not specs such as block list, so that would be an easy spec to add. Just being able to upload a a list of pub keys that you blocked on a particular on your user.

368
00:30:49.409 --> 00:30:53.029
I'm working on, boost the boost specs to be able to, like, retweet,

369
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also edit edit messages. I think there's a delete,

370
00:30:57.715 --> 00:31:07.030
note. So, like, just you know, you could publish a a note that says delete this note, and then it just deletes a note or edit the note. Yeah. We can get editing. You know, we don't have to wait for someone to buy Twitter for $44,000,000,000

371
00:31:07.650 --> 00:31:15.185
and to get editing. You know, we can just implement that. It's an open protocol. Anyone can propose stuff. So I think that's what I really like about Nostra is that you can it can be incrementally

372
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improved upon. Or even just this morning, I had this idea where imagine if I wanted to show what you wanted to show, lightning tips on a note.

373
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Maybe you would just, give the note ID and your pub key and put that in a lightning invoice, and then that lightning node can send a nostra event saying that, hey, I was paid. And then you can and clients can then read that note and display the tips on an on a note. So there's, like,

374
00:31:37.375 --> 00:31:45.400
so much, like, innovation that could happen on this protocol, which I'm I'm fascinated about. Yeah. It's kind of interesting because the most of the functionality

375
00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:46.200
happens

376
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on the client side. So

377
00:31:48.885 --> 00:32:00.260
they really, really doesn't have to know about any new features you add. Like, as long as they really is just accepting messages that are signed properly by a by a private key. Like, it doesn't matter if you build, like, a whole, you know,

378
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.580
decentralized exchange on it or something. It it will just work, like,

379
00:32:04.895 --> 00:32:11.075
as long as the clients obviously support it, but it will just work straight away. Like, you don't have to wait for a server to update at all.

380
00:32:12.409 --> 00:32:13.630
And even going back

381
00:32:14.090 --> 00:32:17.710
to, like, the if the basic construct of systems is the same,

382
00:32:18.169 --> 00:32:19.950
you can easily have a cross compatible,

383
00:32:21.905 --> 00:32:24.485
different view. So if you have Twitter, Reddit,

384
00:32:25.505 --> 00:32:32.630
a message board, all using nostrils to protocol, they could easily just be cross compatible, which is very different views for the user.

385
00:32:33.490 --> 00:32:36.310
Yeah. Like, one example would be imagine you could reboost,

386
00:32:36.770 --> 00:32:46.635
a a Reddit comment and then, you know, I could see that in Twitter, and and people could be replying to it on Twitter, but it would also show up on the Reddit side. So, you know, the these are the things you could do on a open protocol.

387
00:32:47.790 --> 00:32:54.210
Now one thing I did that no one used because it was very shitty is that extension you can comment on pages,

388
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and then you can add a comment to any page.

389
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And it shows on your brand, wherever

390
00:33:00.275 --> 00:33:01.015
your client's

391
00:33:01.315 --> 00:33:01.815
feed,

392
00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:06.160
but it adds a tag with the website. And if the client knows,

393
00:33:06.620 --> 00:33:10.880
it it should show that the website you're commenting on. And that could also

394
00:33:11.975 --> 00:33:15.355
be the same the same format message format could be used for

395
00:33:15.815 --> 00:33:18.155
for someone that just wants a a

396
00:33:18.460 --> 00:33:23.920
comment section on their website. They just embed a widget that since comes through to Notar.

397
00:33:24.860 --> 00:33:27.774
And this is all this way we would like. Show

398
00:33:28.075 --> 00:33:41.019
on people's feed. I wouldn't say it's shitty. I think the issue right now is that literally no one is using Nostra. Like, I I subscribe to, like, the global feed on my app, and, like, no one's using it. So I think that's kind of the bigger issue right now. Not that it's a better issue. Regardless

399
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:42.825
of that. So

400
00:33:43.385 --> 00:33:51.965
It depends as well on which relays you're listening to. Right? So, I mean Sure. Yeah. Somebody could be running a real like, Twitter could be running on a nostril relay, and you wouldn't know either.

401
00:33:52.345 --> 00:34:07.375
Yeah. If Twitter wants to implement a nostril, like a read only nostril relay, that would be amazing. Because then I could just subscribe to everyone I'm subscribed to on Twitter, and then I could stop using the Twitter app. Well, I mean, supposedly, Elon listens to the show. So, hopefully, he implements that. Alright. Elon, get on this.

402
00:34:08.555 --> 00:34:19.975
Wait. So so you mentioned something there. You subscribed to a global feed. So, like, my first two pain points that I noticed, one of them was was discovery. How do I subscribe to a global feed?

403
00:34:20.675 --> 00:34:26.615
Yeah. So I was talking because Francis Francis mentioned this as well when he joined. He's like, how do I find people to follow?

404
00:34:27.582 --> 00:34:46.020
So there's a bunch of different ways. So, you know, I I subscribe to the global feed. This is not gonna work once, you know, Nashra gets any amount of popular because it'll just be a fire hose of events. But for now, it's fine. Like, it's, like, the bootstrapping days. So all you do is create a you need a client that does this. The client that I'm working on does this one, which I'm hopefully gonna release soon.

405
00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:49.400
But you just simply do a query that subscribes on everything.

406
00:34:50.180 --> 00:34:51.000
Got it.

407
00:34:51.380 --> 00:35:07.190
So the Brandy client doesn't support that right now. Right. For a good for probably good reason, you know, because it probably will break in the future. But for Discoverability, it's really nice because I always just say hi when people say hi. So it's good to have that at the start. But Yeah. It feels really lonely when you first launch it.

408
00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:11.510
Yeah. It's really easy to Everybody It's really easy to do it. So, I mean,

409
00:35:11.955 --> 00:35:15.175
Nostar has this thing called tags where, like,

410
00:35:15.635 --> 00:35:18.695
if you just do a tag saying, I don't know, maybe

411
00:35:19.060 --> 00:35:25.240
mentioning Bitcoin or something, you can easily do a filter that just finds everybody posting about Bitcoin in one go. Yep.

412
00:35:26.204 --> 00:35:29.105
When you first join Twitter, what do you get?

413
00:35:29.484 --> 00:35:41.020
Because everybody says it's it's lonely, but if you open a new Twitter account, it would be very lonely. No? That's why, you know, it's They put a bunch of, like, promoted shit in front of you. Like, the algorithm Yeah. But it's it's out of the thing. Worse than lonely.

414
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:56.330
So I recently did this. I created an account. I didn't follow anyone, and the thing and they would just put furry in my feed. I'm like, like, furry shit. I'm like, what is like, is this the like, what? Why is it the default thing you're putting in my feed? I I don't know if Surely you're not using a VPN and and you enjoy furries.

415
00:35:56.950 --> 00:35:57.850
I guess so.

416
00:35:58.150 --> 00:35:59.530
I don't know. It's very strange.

417
00:36:02.215 --> 00:36:13.849
But the way you view that you the way you view that feed on Twitter should be done on Monster 3. It's like you find someone you you like and you add that manually, and then you watch as they interact with others. And you

418
00:36:14.310 --> 00:36:16.890
pick people and start following other people.

419
00:36:17.654 --> 00:36:48.400
But the the other the other thing is, like, how do you choose the delays you're going to subscribe to? And I think this is a bigger problem, but also a very fun problem to work out. Yeah. Fortunately, right now, most relays seem to be mirroring each other. I mean, someone's wrote So you can actually write a script that, like, does a query that pulls all the events from one relay and pushes it to another relay. So it seems like some people are running those right now. But that is a big issue that if it if someone is trying to send me a message and they don't know what relays I'm connected to, then I won't see their message. So

420
00:36:48.765 --> 00:36:50.385
there is a way we

421
00:36:50.765 --> 00:36:56.865
somewhat handle that in the contact list. We can you can put in, like, what relays I typically connect to so people know where to send,

422
00:36:57.645 --> 00:37:05.650
the notes that'll get to me. But yeah. Even the domain, like, even in the messages, you've got that recommended relay thing. Right? So

423
00:37:05.965 --> 00:37:08.945
it does help as well a bit. If you find someone

424
00:37:09.405 --> 00:37:14.785
at some point like, if you find a message you actually are interested to interact with, you can easily find, like,

425
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.180
like, there there is some data involved there where it can tell you to just connect to a different relay to actually get the full list,

426
00:37:23.085 --> 00:37:25.505
full list of related data to it. Right?

427
00:37:25.964 --> 00:37:27.345
So that could work out.

428
00:37:30.140 --> 00:37:33.520
I don't know if people actually use the recommended relay list, though.

429
00:37:35.819 --> 00:37:44.265
Yeah. I I haven't implemented this in my client yet, but I do plan on, like, you know, add relays to the relay pool whenever I see them. It's just yeah. It's more work on the client side.

430
00:37:45.924 --> 00:37:47.065
Yeah. But in practice

431
00:37:47.740 --> 00:37:52.880
in practice, won't most people just use whatever relays are set as default to whatever client they're using?

432
00:37:54.220 --> 00:37:58.865
I mean, it depends if you're trying to do something very specific. Because eventually,

433
00:37:59.405 --> 00:38:03.505
like like, I I from from my perspective, Gnoster is

434
00:38:04.365 --> 00:38:12.240
is a fun toy to play with if you're trying to build a Twitter or social media clone, but I think there's much better use cases as well long term. Like

435
00:38:12.915 --> 00:38:17.655
so you might end up connecting to relays that do very specific use cases. Like,

436
00:38:18.195 --> 00:38:23.160
so I work in BDC Pay. Right? Like, what what's one thing I wanna build at some point? Probably

437
00:38:23.619 --> 00:38:28.755
probably having BDC pay server instances talk to each other to do some, I don't know,

438
00:38:29.075 --> 00:38:31.095
coordination or some of some sort.

439
00:38:31.954 --> 00:38:36.295
Like, I intend to I would intend to use, like, Noster for that kind of stuff as well.

440
00:38:36.900 --> 00:38:47.265
Yeah. Isn't there like a joint market? There's like a joint market formation, like, bounty out? You can do that stuff too. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Like, joint market would be an awesome candidate for using Nostar as well.

441
00:38:47.645 --> 00:38:52.945
Instead of IRC, you could just switch over to using a Nostar really to broadcast your your bids and offers.

442
00:38:53.980 --> 00:39:10.610
That's interesting. Yeah. And I so another thing I've set up is a private relay on my WireGuard VPN at home. And my Bitcoin node, whenever it gets a transaction, it'll create a nostril event. And whenever my c lightning node gets, like, paid, it'll send send out an nostra event. And only my client on my phone that's connected over VPN can see those events.

443
00:39:11.090 --> 00:39:13.990
So they'll just show up, like, in my Twitter feed or whatever, my nostra feed.

444
00:39:14.290 --> 00:39:32.010
But I can so I I sure only you can see those events? I thought I saw them when I was So here's so I've I've, I've implemented a feature in, in Domus, which allows you to rebroadcast private events to a public relays. So any anytime you see them, there's it's a very small subset. It's things I'm choosing to publish. But

445
00:39:32.710 --> 00:39:36.410
yeah. So that's another kind of cool use case where it's like you can have a private,

446
00:39:37.030 --> 00:39:38.730
Twitter feed for your events.

447
00:39:40.445 --> 00:39:41.505
So just to answer

448
00:39:42.205 --> 00:39:44.765
the the previous comment from from Matt, I

449
00:39:45.965 --> 00:39:51.400
the the client, like, the client shouldn't have a hard coded list of relay. It should be it should have

450
00:39:51.700 --> 00:39:55.875
an easy way for people to add relays or an automatic way, like, based

451
00:39:56.335 --> 00:40:03.075
on based on some criteria to to add new relays to your pool and remove others. And I think stuff like

452
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:10.819
following a relay, but only for this specific person and the other relates for other people, this kind of thing could be done.

453
00:40:11.955 --> 00:40:17.735
And for example, if you want if you just follow a set of people and you had know the relay they are in,

454
00:40:18.515 --> 00:40:22.070
but you you also want rip to see replies to

455
00:40:22.530 --> 00:40:27.910
to post from random people. But you don't want spam. So for the replies only,

456
00:40:28.355 --> 00:40:38.770
you will follow only the relays that filter spam better, that they charge for posts or they charge they they ask for proof of work for posts. So the the replies won't have spam on

457
00:40:39.310 --> 00:40:43.410
them. So stuff like that. You you implemented a relay with with the

458
00:40:44.115 --> 00:40:45.795
with the cost concept. Right,

459
00:40:47.795 --> 00:40:50.135
Yeah. I implemented a relay, and we have to pay,

460
00:40:50.755 --> 00:40:56.099
500 sets to Is that per post or, like, does it whitelist your pub key? Because I'm pretty sure it's broken right

461
00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:59.539
now. Yeah. It's a single single payment and you Okay.

462
00:41:00.505 --> 00:41:04.205
Okay. That's broken in because I paid 3 times. It's not working. So you you owe me money.

463
00:41:04.585 --> 00:41:05.565
It's not working.

464
00:41:05.865 --> 00:41:07.405
It's a feature, not a bug.

465
00:41:08.425 --> 00:41:09.790
I tried. It's not working.

466
00:41:10.830 --> 00:41:11.890
Maybe it's offline.

467
00:41:12.510 --> 00:41:13.250
I don't know.

468
00:41:14.030 --> 00:41:14.930
Ragged folder.

469
00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:18.050
I mean, so that was my next question.

470
00:41:19.355 --> 00:41:23.215
So the 2 the 2 pain points that I immediately saw was discovery

471
00:41:25.675 --> 00:41:26.575
and spam.

472
00:41:27.090 --> 00:41:30.630
I mean, I didn't see any spam because there isn't really any right now.

473
00:41:31.250 --> 00:41:32.230
No. I Spam

474
00:41:32.770 --> 00:41:41.015
spam is definitely gonna be a big issue. If if it gets adopted by any by any, you know, notable user base, it's gonna be an issue for sure.

475
00:41:41.474 --> 00:41:41.974
So

476
00:41:42.275 --> 00:41:45.095
you can go for the for, like, some HashCash

477
00:41:45.460 --> 00:41:50.119
kind of solution, but I don't think that would slow down bots in general, especially,

478
00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:55.365
like, even if you look at Twitter, you only notice, like, maybe 20 comments on every post you do,

479
00:41:55.845 --> 00:42:03.545
like, you know, trying to, like like like, even on the Citadel dispatch post, it was, like, some random bot just saying, look,

480
00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:09.500
and some tiny URL link and trying to trying to rug pull the shit out of you, but it's, like, only 10 of them.

481
00:42:10.359 --> 00:42:10.859
HashCash

482
00:42:11.775 --> 00:42:12.915
ish kind of situations

483
00:42:13.295 --> 00:42:21.360
might not stop that because it's only 20 posts. They can probably do the proof of work easily enough. So here's why I completely disagree, and I've been thinking about this a lot. So,

484
00:42:22.640 --> 00:42:44.190
I so you there's a really cool feature about so me so me and Kamri have been working on so Kamri, I think that's his name. He's another Nostra dev. We've been working on a proof of worse proof of work system for, Nostra events. So, basically, the way that it works is that we just, you add a nonce tag to the note, and you just keep increasing the nonce until you get a certain number of leading 0 bits on an of on the, the note ID.

485
00:42:44.890 --> 00:42:46.990
So what's what's interesting about this is that,

486
00:42:48.115 --> 00:42:54.535
you can you can do interesting things with this. So, for instance, if I created a thread and I said, I want a certain number of leading 0 bits

487
00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:57.680
to only show up on the replies of this thread.

488
00:42:58.300 --> 00:43:03.680
And you can make this make it really high. Let's say, like, 50 bits, which is actually pretty hard. You could actually pay

489
00:43:04.205 --> 00:43:05.805
a miner to to,

490
00:43:06.845 --> 00:43:09.985
create this event for you because the signatures, they don't commit

491
00:43:10.285 --> 00:43:20.030
or the ID doesn't commit to the signature. It's just the pub key and the and the data of the note. So you can actually export, proof of work to a to a service, and you could pay that service

492
00:43:20.605 --> 00:43:20.925
to,

493
00:43:21.805 --> 00:43:27.025
to do that work for you. And then so this might be another roundabout way to to, like, disentangle

494
00:43:27.405 --> 00:43:28.760
the payment method from

495
00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:30.620
paying for proof of work

496
00:43:31.080 --> 00:43:32.460
for you know? So

497
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.670
the reason why this is interesting, because if I if I'm replying to a thread,

498
00:43:37.135 --> 00:43:45.230
the biggest issue on Twitter right now, like, the most annoying thing even with your when you did this tweet, Adele, it's like, you just get a 1,000,000 spam messages. Right? There's, like, these crypto snippets

499
00:43:45.950 --> 00:43:55.075
immediately. So they can't do that because in in Austria, if you did use this proof of work system, because they would have to start doing the work immediately based off the ID of your post.

500
00:43:55.615 --> 00:44:00.275
So if you said there's something like 50 bits, they would either have to pay for that or get a minor to to reply.

501
00:44:01.350 --> 00:44:08.970
So, no, I was I was thinking maybe using proof of work for could prevent those types of crypto spammers on threads might be interesting, but I don't think there's any implementation that

502
00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:10.650
does that yet, though.

503
00:44:15.365 --> 00:44:16.505
I have So I think

504
00:44:17.045 --> 00:44:17.865
Oh, go ahead.

505
00:44:18.490 --> 00:44:21.069
Yeah. I I think the proof of work thing is interesting,

506
00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:23.630
but I think other approaches can be used.

507
00:44:24.945 --> 00:44:36.650
In my opinion, you you would do the filtering by relay, but you could also do that the client anyway, clients can can can implement different approaches here. There are many ways many ways, and they all

508
00:44:37.109 --> 00:44:39.049
will deliver some some level

509
00:44:39.750 --> 00:44:40.490
of success.

510
00:44:41.325 --> 00:44:44.225
I'm scared that if you implement it on the client side,

511
00:44:44.925 --> 00:44:50.065
the bandwidth might be a bit much on the on the end user as well. Like, I mean,

512
00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:57.359
and also the relay as well because then you'll they'll just end up with, you know, a buttload of, spam messages just,

513
00:44:57.980 --> 00:45:00.445
saved and persisted to the server. Right?

514
00:45:02.685 --> 00:45:03.485
Yeah. It's like

515
00:45:04.205 --> 00:45:11.560
because I was considering running a public relay. I'm, like, what are the things I have to think about it? You know, you could just create you know, botnets could just spam my relay, fill up my hard drive.

516
00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:17.320
So at the very minimum, I would want proof of work requirements for every note coming into the system.

517
00:45:17.885 --> 00:45:28.520
You mean on the relay side? Right? Yeah. On the relay side. Just just for that. Just to prevent, like, just people spamming my relay. Yeah. I I would do that as well as a base minimum as well. But also,

518
00:45:29.540 --> 00:45:30.520
so I started

519
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:33.060
on my relay implementation, I started doing,

520
00:45:35.575 --> 00:45:38.555
kind of like a a balanced concept for every pub key.

521
00:45:39.095 --> 00:45:43.035
And then you can configure the the serve the relay so that

522
00:45:43.670 --> 00:45:53.605
every pop key can have a cost associated to register it just like, Fiat Jeff system does, but also for every message and every message kind type

523
00:45:53.985 --> 00:45:55.765
can have a different cost to it,

524
00:45:57.345 --> 00:46:01.730
just to just to be able to control it a bit more. So, for example, if somebody is just

525
00:46:02.210 --> 00:46:03.270
sending a message

526
00:46:04.130 --> 00:46:04.630
to

527
00:46:05.170 --> 00:46:08.150
a white listed amount of add of pub keys,

528
00:46:08.850 --> 00:46:13.755
then it could be free or else it could be, like, it it could have a specific cost to it in SaaS,

529
00:46:14.295 --> 00:46:15.895
at least in my in my relates

530
00:46:16.455 --> 00:46:18.395
the the monetary basis SaaS.

531
00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:19.099
But,

532
00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:26.800
yeah, I mean, I I think some money penalty could be quite important to actually make sure that your data

533
00:46:27.395 --> 00:46:33.175
doesn't get overloaded, at least on the on your server because I I think spam bots will just try to wreck you.

534
00:46:35.210 --> 00:46:37.630
Other approaches, I think, that could be fruitful

535
00:46:37.930 --> 00:46:38.430
are,

536
00:46:39.450 --> 00:46:42.990
Google recapture for stupid people that don't use Bitcoin

537
00:46:43.755 --> 00:46:47.375
and, like, invite only relays for small communities with

538
00:46:48.155 --> 00:46:49.215
human moderators.

539
00:46:49.915 --> 00:46:50.415
Like,

540
00:46:50.715 --> 00:46:52.190
this relay is only for

541
00:46:52.670 --> 00:46:53.650
football content

542
00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:57.970
and whatever we will ban. If you should talk about other things and

543
00:46:58.270 --> 00:46:59.170
stuff like

544
00:47:00.885 --> 00:47:02.585
maybe KYC, whatever.

545
00:47:03.605 --> 00:47:05.865
Not not recommending that one. But

546
00:47:06.250 --> 00:47:06.750
these

547
00:47:07.370 --> 00:47:11.070
solve the no stir spam problem with KYC. That's the plan?

548
00:47:11.450 --> 00:47:17.285
No. That's that's one possibility that we will allow people to do, We don't we won't recommend. And

549
00:47:18.945 --> 00:47:22.085
and what what was the other one? Like, the algorithm.

550
00:47:22.910 --> 00:47:25.250
Someone could make a relay that has an algorithm

551
00:47:25.630 --> 00:47:26.450
to the spare,

552
00:47:27.150 --> 00:47:28.850
like like, to the drive.

553
00:47:29.310 --> 00:47:30.370
Well, so if

554
00:47:31.535 --> 00:47:41.289
so the big difference here well, I mean, one of the big differences here with something like Mastodon is it's all client side. So if if I'm using, like, the private football relay

555
00:47:41.910 --> 00:47:45.049
and I decide to talk about basketball and they banned me,

556
00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:46.490
I have

557
00:47:47.375 --> 00:47:50.035
I have my private public key pair,

558
00:47:50.335 --> 00:48:20.970
and it's all client side. I can just switch relays, and that that's all I have to do. There's no So Yeah. And you would typically be connected you'd be connected to other relays, like so you would post it to that particular relay, but you'd also be posting it to other relays. So the other relays would all potentially be storing your messages as well. So if they banned you, you would still you could still pull all those messages from another relay. So and and even just move them to another relay. So it's the data is much more movable in this in this, architecture. But is my client not keeping a copy of all my messages that I've sent?

559
00:48:21.495 --> 00:48:23.515
It it depends on your client. Right? So

560
00:48:23.975 --> 00:48:33.660
we can always just copy all those events in one go. And just like, if the client is saving all the events, then you can actually just post them on a different relay, and you'd be back up to speed

561
00:48:34.040 --> 00:48:34.940
with your conversations.

562
00:48:36.065 --> 00:48:46.109
Yeah. And even just in my case where I run a private relay over v VPN, all my notes are backed up. I know that they're backed up on on my machine at home. So I can always pull those and push them to other Elays.

563
00:48:47.289 --> 00:48:55.395
And that includes my contact list and block list and my metadata, my profile metadata, all that stuff. Oh, so if we go back to the spam conversation

564
00:48:57.775 --> 00:49:02.115
so, I mean, I well, I think it's kinda interesting how you basically say, like,

565
00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:06.320
using the proof of work method is you kinda, like, disintermediating

566
00:49:06.859 --> 00:49:09.760
the payment method because people can go and pay

567
00:49:10.215 --> 00:49:15.355
a proof of work provider in whatever payment method they want, and then that proof of work could be submitted.

568
00:49:17.290 --> 00:49:44.565
Yeah. So the difficulty adjustment is the market. So I was thinking about this this morning in the sense that, let's say, spam gets even worse and even spammers are paying, you know I don't know. Like, maybe they probably wouldn't be paying money for proof of work, but, let's say, you know, they're running their own ASICs and they're able to spam. Like, maybe, you know, spam proof of work providers could, you know, build bigger ASIC farms, and you can pay more so that you make sure that but the the in some sense, the market should be difficulty adjusting the amount of,

569
00:49:45.505 --> 00:49:52.640
yeah, bits you need in the proof of work. So I I just think that was an interesting idea. And another cool thing about the protocol is that it allows you to,

570
00:49:53.260 --> 00:49:59.365
filter on prefixes of IDs, not just IDs themselves. So I can say I'm looking for 8 bleeding zeros

571
00:49:59.744 --> 00:50:04.885
on this ID. So if I'm if I wanted if let's say I marked my thread as I I expect

572
00:50:06.210 --> 00:50:12.390
8 zeros on the front of my ID, then I can easily filter all spam from my thread that way. So that's another benefit.

573
00:50:14.525 --> 00:50:16.865
But so then my next question is,

574
00:50:17.884 --> 00:50:19.984
why not just accept Sats directly?

575
00:50:20.924 --> 00:50:21.964
Yeah. So I was

576
00:50:22.609 --> 00:50:24.150
one issue with this is that,

577
00:50:24.450 --> 00:50:27.910
so okay. Now you're saying to to post this particular

578
00:50:28.210 --> 00:50:29.270
relay, I

579
00:50:29.865 --> 00:50:32.285
I need to be able to I need to pay SATs

580
00:50:32.665 --> 00:50:34.505
to, like, to get my message on that particular relay.

581
00:50:35.385 --> 00:50:36.845
But if I don't have SATs,

582
00:50:37.359 --> 00:50:48.635
then and I want and I wanted to get a message to that relay that so that other someone on that relay can read it. They might not be able to do that. Where I feel like proof of work kind of it doesn't really matter the way the way you pay.

583
00:50:49.355 --> 00:50:57.140
It just really comes down to the market. So, I mean, that's more of like an adoption issue. Right? Like, in a post Bitcoin world, everyone should be able to pay stats?

584
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:04.260
Yeah. I mean and I think that's kind of the what we're trying to get across here is that, you know, Nostra isn't really like a Bitcoin project, but,

585
00:51:04.625 --> 00:51:08.805
you know, Bitcoin is I I I think Bitcoin's gonna be a big part of it, lightning, lightning payments.

586
00:51:09.505 --> 00:51:22.730
But it doesn't need to be. It's more of a more general, like, information relay system where there could be many different ways to do things. Well, I mean, I think it's cool that there's optionality and that the different relay operators can choose what they wanna do and that they're still interoperable.

587
00:51:23.894 --> 00:51:28.075
But, I mean, there's got isn't there a strong argument there that

588
00:51:29.015 --> 00:51:30.795
by doing it with SATS,

589
00:51:31.220 --> 00:51:37.079
you're basically providing a direct incentive to the relay operators to basically run a reliable relay

590
00:51:37.539 --> 00:51:39.355
that isn't inundated with

591
00:51:39.835 --> 00:51:55.540
spam and garbage and stuff? Yeah. I mean, I personally would I would do it with Sats. I don't I can't imagine I mean, if I really wanted to make it easier for plebs, I can or the normies, then I can, you know, make a stripe integration or something. But, yeah, I mean, SaaS is the a way to go. Because I feel like one of the failure points of

592
00:51:56.975 --> 00:51:57.475
Mastodon

593
00:51:57.855 --> 00:51:58.355
is

594
00:51:59.855 --> 00:52:08.630
there's only really two reasons I guess there's three reasons to run a Mastodon instance. One is that you're just using your own instance, so you don't have to

595
00:52:09.410 --> 00:52:14.069
be subservient to anybody. So you're just basically running it for yourself and maybe a few friends.

596
00:52:15.665 --> 00:52:17.925
And then the second reason is ideological.

597
00:52:18.385 --> 00:52:19.765
And then the third reason

598
00:52:20.545 --> 00:52:28.890
is the control play. Like, if NVK is evil and he runs the Bitcoin hackers instance, he can make sure that, like, foundation devices and all of his

599
00:52:29.430 --> 00:52:34.325
all of his adversaries aren't allowed to have access to it. So, he gets some kind of indirect

600
00:52:35.345 --> 00:52:38.405
benefit from having control. But there's no

601
00:52:40.500 --> 00:52:45.640
there's there's no direct incentive for someone to run a Mastodon instance. But in this case,

602
00:52:46.180 --> 00:52:47.160
there could be

603
00:52:48.234 --> 00:52:49.055
for a Nostrilay.

604
00:52:50.234 --> 00:52:58.760
Yeah. Like, authoritarians love, like, activity pub and Mastodon instances because they get to, like, have that power, like, banning people and controlling their only, like, feudal society.

605
00:52:59.300 --> 00:53:04.280
But, you know, I feel like Nostra is definitely more of the free market. You know, you can charge

606
00:53:04.615 --> 00:53:08.714
in different ways and, you know, I I know. I kinda like it for on on that aspect.

607
00:53:12.180 --> 00:53:17.319
So another point I I had here is, like, a problem I have on Twitter

608
00:53:17.619 --> 00:53:21.800
today is that sometimes I want to post something in Portuguese to

609
00:53:22.405 --> 00:53:27.545
some some completely unrelated Bitcoin topic, but I I I got

610
00:53:28.485 --> 00:53:29.865
a lot of people that

611
00:53:30.180 --> 00:53:30.920
like my Bitcoin

612
00:53:31.620 --> 00:53:33.000
related English posts.

613
00:53:33.380 --> 00:53:37.240
So I I think that we would annoy them, so I don't do it.

614
00:53:37.700 --> 00:53:38.200
And

615
00:53:38.685 --> 00:53:46.785
and I I also see sometimes people I follow because their Twitter their their Bitcoin stuff, and they post stuff in Turkish or Russian or whatever.

616
00:53:47.100 --> 00:53:48.720
And that's very annoying for me.

617
00:53:49.180 --> 00:54:01.555
And I think if you had if you had different relays with different communities, like and you could, like, oh, my post is about this topic. We'll go on to this relay, and my post about the other topic will go to the other relay. That would solve

618
00:54:01.855 --> 00:54:02.595
this problem.

619
00:54:03.590 --> 00:54:07.770
I guess in my head, that kinda goes with Kook's, like, Reddit concept.

620
00:54:08.790 --> 00:54:12.890
Right? Because Reddit is already separated into communities, but you use the same username.

621
00:54:13.494 --> 00:54:14.714
But you can post in,

622
00:54:15.255 --> 00:54:16.394
like, maps r/maps

623
00:54:16.855 --> 00:54:17.755
or, like, r/bitcoin,

624
00:54:18.295 --> 00:54:20.154
depending on what you wanna talk about.

625
00:54:20.680 --> 00:54:34.285
And there's an there's another way to do it. Like, one issue I have on Twitter is that I like to tweet about a variety of, topics. And some people just follow me for, let's say, Bitcoin. Maybe not Nostra. And they're like, stop talking about Nostra. I'm like but I'm obsessed with Nostra in the past, like, months. So that's all I've been tweeting about.

626
00:54:34.665 --> 00:54:36.605
So Nostra has a way to add tags,

627
00:54:37.065 --> 00:54:39.005
like, metadata to a note.

628
00:54:39.430 --> 00:54:47.210
So I was thinking maybe if you you could just say, hey. This this post is about Nostra. This post is about Bitcoin, and people can selectively filter that out. I think that'd be really cool.

629
00:54:50.795 --> 00:54:51.295
Yeah.

630
00:54:52.795 --> 00:54:56.335
But this is not this is not really possible today.

631
00:54:57.090 --> 00:55:06.645
Or it'd be easy to implement, but it is not implemented. I mean, I definitely can implement in my client, but, yeah, other clients would have to implement it. We have to start spec in this stuff so people can start implementing. We need more developers.

632
00:55:07.505 --> 00:55:14.165
The beauty of Nostra is that it's so easy to implement these kind of things. It's like once you agree on a specific,

633
00:55:14.990 --> 00:55:24.815
you know, either a tag or a kind or something, it's like super simple to just say, okay, I'll implement it in a day or 2. Like, it's really not that much of a hassle. Like,

634
00:55:26.075 --> 00:55:32.575
like, literally, Nastar, at the base of it is literally just a piece of JSON content that he just creates.

635
00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:42.725
Like, there's really nothing not much to it. It's JSON and WebSockets. Like, there's not much to it. Like, any any website developer can build a Nostra client or Relay.

636
00:55:43.685 --> 00:55:54.490
And this was my issue with Activity Pub and Mastodon is that their protocol is extremely complicated. I probably spent, like, a year trying to build an an Activity Pub node, and it just was so like, such a pain in the ass that I just eventually gave up.

637
00:55:55.190 --> 00:56:00.775
But this one, it's, I don't even have to write a node. Just write a client, which is easier. Maybe not easier, but

638
00:56:01.494 --> 00:56:05.994
I mean, the the relay code is almost just as simple. It's more about

639
00:56:06.694 --> 00:56:11.320
like, the only complicated part is making sure that you like, the extra

640
00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:16.180
the extra complication is that you have a database involved, and that's really all to it.

641
00:56:17.620 --> 00:56:26.165
But, yeah, I mean, if you can write a a client, the relay part is just getting those messages and putting them into a database somewhere. Yeah, guys.

642
00:56:26.805 --> 00:56:28.185
Without the databases.

643
00:56:28.950 --> 00:56:31.210
Nostra is cutting edge tech. It's just databases

644
00:56:31.670 --> 00:56:36.170
that you can, like, replicate to each other. It's, like, pretty mind blowing innovating tech.

645
00:56:36.885 --> 00:56:58.555
Someone suggested to have a relay that doesn't have a database. It's just stateless, and it keeps stuff on memory for a while, then delete it. So I'm actually going to implement that. So it's funny you mentioned that. I'm gonna go implement that for my iOS notifications because I realized I don't need to store anything. I just need to look at a pub key and associate that with the device. And the minute I see that, I can just send an iOS notification. So that's gonna be one of those use cases.

646
00:56:59.575 --> 00:57:04.710
I mean, you can also like, that could actually work as a use case for some specific

647
00:57:05.890 --> 00:57:09.190
styles of how to use Nostar. Like, if you wanted to build,

648
00:57:09.569 --> 00:57:10.390
let's say,

649
00:57:10.930 --> 00:57:11.829
some kind of

650
00:57:13.535 --> 00:57:18.435
coin joint coordinator for Bitcoin, which needs to live for only a short period of time,

651
00:57:18.815 --> 00:57:25.770
that could actually work as well. Like, you don't need a database to persist the data to it. It just needs, you know, a memory

652
00:57:27.270 --> 00:57:32.305
just a memory storage of who who is joining, the inputs, outputs, boom,

653
00:57:32.685 --> 00:57:35.645
broadcast transaction. You're good to go. But we are eventually

654
00:57:36.125 --> 00:57:39.530
server a game server, like, the people joining a game of

655
00:57:39.990 --> 00:57:41.850
worms Armageddon or something, and

656
00:57:42.230 --> 00:57:46.250
it it just need the state to be kept through for the duration of the game.

657
00:57:47.405 --> 00:57:51.425
But but we are gonna switch to Solana. Right? Just for, like, maximum speed and scale?

658
00:57:53.645 --> 00:57:54.545
Yes. Yes.

659
00:57:55.165 --> 00:57:57.025
That's planned for the end of the year.

660
00:58:01.230 --> 00:58:02.050
That was a joke.

661
00:58:03.310 --> 00:58:06.369
I think I hope most people are aware it was a joke.

662
00:58:06.965 --> 00:58:08.825
It hits a little close to home though.

663
00:58:12.405 --> 00:58:13.305
So, I mean,

664
00:58:14.580 --> 00:58:18.120
what are the, I mean, you guys seem pretty glowing about,

665
00:58:19.220 --> 00:58:27.295
no strip, but what are the, what are the pain points have you guys seen? Have you seen any pain points yet? Like, what are your concerns as this thing gets built up?

666
00:58:28.315 --> 00:58:31.740
Oh, one thing, I I wanted to mention is that

667
00:58:32.040 --> 00:58:36.220
some people come to to the chat and ask, like,

668
00:58:36.855 --> 00:58:38.714
oh, I want to experiment with NoStar,

669
00:58:39.015 --> 00:58:40.395
what to install, and

670
00:58:41.015 --> 00:58:59.164
and it's there's not that I think the mentality shouldn't be that for now at least because there's no you can install. That's just the idea, and sometimes they're implementing parts parts of the idea. So if people come thinking they get a full product, like, completely built and they can just judge

671
00:58:59.785 --> 00:59:03.005
based on that, that won't happen. We need more developers

672
00:59:03.305 --> 00:59:10.760
implementing more of the ideas and still making more of the stuff. Yeah. I think, yeah, Jeff said that, yeah, don't expect

673
00:59:11.779 --> 00:59:17.055
don't expect, like, this rose rosy garden or anything. It's your if you're gonna get into it right now, you're you're gonna suffer.

674
00:59:17.755 --> 00:59:23.055
But it's not really meant for it. It's not really meant for users at the moment. I think we need more developers, we need more people experimenting.

675
00:59:24.290 --> 00:59:32.215
Our clients are crap. I'm trying to make a better client, but it's only for iOS. If we could get some an Android client, that'd be great. Android developers, we need those.

676
00:59:32.775 --> 00:59:41.595
Some more web clients. Just yeah. No more developers to get people into get people into this. So, I mean, for the developers that are listening, like, what's the best way for them to

677
00:59:42.550 --> 00:59:48.490
contribute? I mean, there there's probably a client in, like, 3 or 4 or 5 different languages at this point. So

678
00:59:48.790 --> 00:59:56.265
there's there's multiple options for most devs to to be able to join in. I have a c sharp client. I have a c sharp library. I have a c sharp

679
00:59:57.450 --> 01:00:02.410
relay as well. So, you know, I'm hitting every point from my end, but, I'm sure there's,

680
01:00:03.865 --> 01:00:05.085
I think I think

681
01:00:05.545 --> 01:00:06.924
has one in Go,

682
01:00:07.305 --> 01:00:08.444
if I remember correctly.

683
01:00:08.744 --> 01:00:13.020
I have a library in Go and a a command line client that is very incomplete

684
01:00:13.560 --> 01:00:16.780
but could use some help. I have a Go

685
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:19.435
Relay library that you can just,

686
01:00:19.995 --> 01:00:27.990
like, you can just reuse it and implement the parts of the Relay that you wanna customize, and it it does the basic stuff for you. There's the brand

687
01:00:28.609 --> 01:00:31.430
web client. There's a guy working on a Haskell

688
01:00:31.730 --> 01:00:37.545
desktop client. There's a guy working on a Android client, but we don't know exactly what he's doing.

689
01:00:37.845 --> 01:00:40.744
Maybe he's just saying he's not working. And, actually,

690
01:00:41.890 --> 01:00:45.670
there was there was a client enclosure that are, like, very much for desktop

691
01:00:46.049 --> 01:00:50.309
that was made by a friend of that guy, uncle Bob Martin, that some people know.

692
01:00:51.015 --> 01:00:55.755
Uncle Bob Martin also was working on a client for for a project, I think.

693
01:00:56.055 --> 01:01:00.630
Yeah. I love that uncle Bob's on this. Like, I see him posting on this client every now and then. I'm like, this is so

694
01:01:00.930 --> 01:01:01.430
cool.

695
01:01:02.450 --> 01:01:06.710
Yeah. I I didn't know this guy, but apparently, he's an idol for a bunch of people.

696
01:01:09.365 --> 01:01:11.785
Yeah. And I'm working on a, an iOS client,

697
01:01:12.565 --> 01:01:14.985
in Swift. So hopefully It's fine. Release soon.

698
01:01:15.370 --> 01:01:17.950
I mean Can you run that on desktop or something?

699
01:01:18.490 --> 01:01:21.400
You can run on macOS, but I can't do a desktop.

700
01:01:23.345 --> 01:01:23.845
What,

701
01:01:24.385 --> 01:01:29.365
so, I mean, I mentioned discovery earlier, and Fiat Jaf seems like he's pretty,

702
01:01:32.230 --> 01:01:35.610
he's pretty content with the discovery model of just

703
01:01:36.070 --> 01:01:41.635
following one person and then seeing who they talk to and then following those people and seeing who they talk to.

704
01:01:43.855 --> 01:01:54.200
Yes. What about you yeah. Go on. So I yeah. I think I I brought this up before, but, Francis came on. He was talking about how do I discover people. So I actually created a cool Bitcoiners

705
01:01:54.715 --> 01:02:02.255
account, and I started adding people to that contact list. So, like, kind of, like, kind of cool Bitcoiners. Right? And I gave the private key to that account to Francis.

706
01:02:03.080 --> 01:02:17.445
So this is, like, an interesting idea where you kind of and maybe down the line, this will get into, like, multi shakes multisiction or something where you can share an account with other people. But I I gave him the private key, so he can add people to that list. So, you know, contact lists are a part of the protocol right now.

707
01:02:17.905 --> 01:02:18.785
So you can actually

708
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:29.605
they're kinda like Twitter lists. So I thought that might be one interesting way to do discoverability, so to have these lists that are that are published. So my client says that you are currently following

709
01:02:30.865 --> 01:02:33.285
maybe 25 people. Is that correct?

710
01:02:34.145 --> 01:02:35.285
Sounds about right.

711
01:02:36.305 --> 01:02:37.605
But most of them are just

712
01:02:37.984 --> 01:02:39.045
bear pub keys.

713
01:02:40.530 --> 01:02:43.990
Yeah. So this is, again, an issue, I guess, with the Braun Lake client.

714
01:02:44.370 --> 01:02:53.125
With with my client, it actually syncs all contacts, so I you it'll render the the names. But, again, you can't really rely on the names because someone could be

715
01:02:53.505 --> 01:02:54.225
faking that,

716
01:02:54.625 --> 01:02:56.625
and it's trick you. So this is why there's

717
01:02:58.300 --> 01:03:00.960
My my in in I'm very like,

718
01:03:01.340 --> 01:03:07.280
I don't like JavaScript loading my browser, so I try to limit the the amount of data

719
01:03:07.755 --> 01:03:08.255
and

720
01:03:08.954 --> 01:03:09.454
connections,

721
01:03:09.755 --> 01:03:18.480
but I think that's a a mistake for me. So the the client only loads stuff when you click. It loads a little bit of them, but if you click on the others, it will load the others.

722
01:03:19.340 --> 01:03:22.720
Yeah. As I click, the names are coming up. Like, I just found Cool BitCointers.

723
01:03:23.725 --> 01:03:24.365
Now I can't

724
01:03:25.565 --> 01:03:41.005
I just found Keegan, but I can't see their follow list. I guess it's gonna take a little bit Yeah. I wouldn't use any shit on that. I wouldn't I wouldn't judge not sure based off Bronle. I mean, I I mean, I love Bronle. You don't get me wrong with the VHF, but it's got some optimization to do.

725
01:03:42.985 --> 01:03:46.045
Well, the idea was I I had to master idea

726
01:03:46.420 --> 01:03:56.555
for a long time, and a lot of people were liking it. And there was no client. No one was using it. No one so I but I said, oh, I must do something that's usable at least. So I did better.

727
01:03:57.095 --> 01:04:01.275
And then more people became interested, so I think it it served his

728
01:04:02.135 --> 01:04:04.170
his role, like, in the segment.

729
01:04:04.710 --> 01:04:08.569
But I think the plan is that it's gonna it's gonna be killed after we get a good client.

730
01:04:09.670 --> 01:04:13.765
So is there a better client that's usable right now that's got a GUI?

731
01:04:15.905 --> 01:04:19.685
I'm not sure about that. My client is worse than Bronle for sure.

732
01:04:21.210 --> 01:04:24.270
I I just use my command line. I just I don't know.

733
01:04:24.650 --> 01:04:26.010
That's where I put the GUI,

734
01:04:26.410 --> 01:04:27.630
clarifier in there.

735
01:04:28.055 --> 01:04:32.875
See, that's why we need devs. We need devs. Help us out, please. So I'm just gonna start with

736
01:04:33.415 --> 01:04:39.220
Mister Kooks, like, how do I find your account? Like, what's the easiest way for me to follow you on this shit? Man,

737
01:04:39.680 --> 01:04:40.660
honestly, like,

738
01:04:41.200 --> 01:04:42.340
I don't even use,

739
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:44.100
Nostril in a

740
01:04:44.535 --> 01:04:52.615
persistent way. Like, my my client is, like, literally with no with no backing to it. So every time I load up my client, it just creates a new pub key for me. So

741
01:04:53.750 --> 01:04:54.330
Fair enough.

742
01:04:55.270 --> 01:04:58.890
Yeah. So I'm, like, in no persistent state whatsoever

743
01:04:59.270 --> 01:05:00.170
in this world.

744
01:05:02.785 --> 01:05:05.525
I think we will end up with better clients.

745
01:05:06.545 --> 01:05:15.670
It's more about actually finding a proper, you know, market fit for it. Like, you know, it's very easy to build these very simplistic things where you can

746
01:05:16.130 --> 01:05:17.110
browse events,

747
01:05:17.490 --> 01:05:19.350
have a new private key generated,

748
01:05:20.285 --> 01:05:21.585
follow a bunch of people,

749
01:05:22.125 --> 01:05:24.305
message a bunch of people, but you actually want

750
01:05:25.325 --> 01:05:31.920
some random guy to show up and like, hey. I'm building a start up on your Nostra idea. I'm I'm gonna make a bunch of money off you guys. I hope that's okay.

751
01:05:32.220 --> 01:05:43.185
And you want him to you want us to be like, oh, that's awesome. I hope you I hope you make a buttload of money and actually promote the idea a bit better. Because that's the guy that's gonna fund devs and UX guys to actually build a proper

752
01:05:43.485 --> 01:05:44.785
client for for you.

753
01:05:45.325 --> 01:05:52.930
Yeah. That is kinda my master plan right now. I I do wanna turn Domus into, like, a Slack, or even just like a Slack slash private Twitter for your organization.

754
01:05:53.549 --> 01:05:58.369
That's kinda my master plan for my app. So hopefully, I get there, and Sonos charges this a bit. But

755
01:05:58.675 --> 01:06:00.615
for now, we had yeah. We need more clients.

756
01:06:01.395 --> 01:06:02.215
So since,

757
01:06:02.675 --> 01:06:07.895
since William has told me has reviewed here that I'm terrible making clients

758
01:06:08.829 --> 01:06:19.105
And demos demos or whatever is going to conquer the world. I think we should focus I I that's my plan, at least, to focus on some of the other use cases like

759
01:06:19.565 --> 01:06:22.224
the during market stuff that Cook's mentioned.

760
01:06:22.684 --> 01:06:26.400
And I think there are a bunch of other ideas that don't fit the Twitter model,

761
01:06:26.859 --> 01:06:28.319
and they're, like,

762
01:06:30.845 --> 01:06:39.025
a Wiki. Some guys suggested a Wiki that like, a global Wiki that you can find posts from any any anyone, and you can choose

763
01:06:39.510 --> 01:06:40.970
the edits you want.

764
01:06:41.270 --> 01:06:52.395
And the post would have tags with the name of the article, and it would link to other articles. And when you click, like, if you're browsing football and you click the ball, you'll get an article for the ball, but you you get multiple options

765
01:06:52.775 --> 01:06:56.070
from multiple people, and then you you can choose the anyone.

766
01:06:56.930 --> 01:07:00.150
And other stuff like the DLC stuff, the DLC

767
01:07:00.530 --> 01:07:04.424
guy, they're I think they are looking for a way to solve the DLC

768
01:07:04.964 --> 01:07:12.940
liquidity thing because you can't really find other people to bet with unless you know the person and you talk to to the person, etcetera.

769
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.180
So I think it'd be nice to have that centralized

770
01:07:16.120 --> 01:07:21.865
or the book of the OC bets bet offers and stuff like that, and also for the oracles to announce themselves.

771
01:07:22.325 --> 01:07:25.145
I think Monster will fit very nicely in that.

772
01:07:25.845 --> 01:07:27.225
One idea that, like,

773
01:07:28.300 --> 01:07:28.800
inspired,

774
01:07:29.340 --> 01:07:34.000
Nostra was the Diagon Alley idea that, Ben Arck

775
01:07:34.685 --> 01:07:37.905
created for when when he just invented the created the LMBits,

776
01:07:38.365 --> 01:07:39.985
he wanted to make LMBits

777
01:07:40.365 --> 01:07:41.105
on LMBits

778
01:07:41.565 --> 01:07:48.039
app that would allow you to to register some products, and then it would create you for you a list of products

779
01:07:48.579 --> 01:07:50.200
you would you will be selling.

780
01:07:50.655 --> 01:07:58.994
And then people wouldn't have to connect directly to your LMBs instance to browse your your products because these products would be sent through an indexer,

781
01:07:59.295 --> 01:08:00.195
and the indexer

782
01:08:00.640 --> 01:08:02.580
is a server running somewhere

783
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:03.620
that would

784
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:04.420
render

785
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:06.740
both, like, the the

786
01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:08.660
offerings from multiple

787
01:08:09.040 --> 01:08:09.540
shops.

788
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:17.844
And when someone wants to buy stuff, they would go to the indexer, not to the to the shop directly. And I think this matches perfectly

789
01:08:18.590 --> 01:08:19.250
to Naso.

790
01:08:20.190 --> 01:08:25.550
That would be awesome. Yeah. That that would also be awesome. It's because it's in B2C Pay as well, we have this concept of,

791
01:08:26.895 --> 01:08:34.675
point of sale apps with items in them and crowdfunding apps with with perks inside them. And at one point, I was gonna do it so that you can connect,

792
01:08:35.910 --> 01:08:49.485
you can connect them all together so that you can get the directory of items, but it would be so much better if you just had, like, a a relay where you can just post these products to it, then they would just show up for everyone in a unified way.

793
01:08:50.120 --> 01:08:53.580
I guess you can kind of recreate the experience of, OpenBazaar,

794
01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:58.060
but without the centralized sir well, I mean, there's still a centralized server, but it's still,

795
01:08:58.415 --> 01:09:02.595
you know, more portable. Yeah. Yeah. More more more per servers and

796
01:09:03.215 --> 01:09:03.875
Yeah. Exactly.

797
01:09:04.415 --> 01:09:13.179
That would be The is such a failure because no one would install that big bloated thing to be able to browse some some.

798
01:09:13.775 --> 01:09:26.659
But Exactly. If you just visit the page and see the product, it's much easier. I totally forgot about that project. Yeah. But they added they legitimately added Solana, so they have that going for them. Oh, they did? Okay. I don't know. They rebranded.

799
01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:28.980
Right. It's a different name now.

800
01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:31.219
Closed bazaar.

801
01:09:32.195 --> 01:09:35.875
They took a bunch of VC money too, which is always the poison pill.

802
01:09:36.915 --> 01:09:42.740
So, I mean, so all of the a lot of the it seems like all these use cases, we're talking about sign messages.

803
01:09:43.200 --> 01:09:50.235
But, presumably, because you have a public key, private key pair, you could do encrypted messages too. Right? Yeah. There is.

804
01:09:50.855 --> 01:09:59.560
Yeah. There is there is direct messages between between users, which is, you know, like, encrypted end to end. So you don't have you can post

805
01:09:59.860 --> 01:10:06.600
you can put them post a message specifically between 2 persons, and only those 2 people can actually look at the message and decrypt it.

806
01:10:07.085 --> 01:10:08.385
So you can actually recreate,

807
01:10:08.765 --> 01:10:11.185
like, a, like, a signal experience,

808
01:10:11.885 --> 01:10:36.370
except Yeah. Group messages because that's still not possible. But you can recreate these kind of things to do. Yeah. And you could definitely do group messages. It's just a and we were talking about that in the This is an implementation thing. Right? Yeah. It it's all about how, like, how do you, you know, generate that shared secret. In the case of a DM, it's you take the pub Yeah. Pub key in your secret key. But in a group, setting, it could just be a different way to generate that shared secret. So you could definitely do it. But so then,

809
01:10:36.750 --> 01:10:37.250
presumably,

810
01:10:39.310 --> 01:10:40.210
like, every

811
01:10:43.805 --> 01:10:44.305
every,

812
01:10:45.005 --> 01:10:51.570
project that hates on lightning that uses the wants to use onion messages could use no instead.

813
01:10:53.310 --> 01:10:55.810
Yes. I would really recommend that instead.

814
01:10:56.590 --> 01:11:02.605
What projects are using Onion messages? I don't know. I just feel like you're always complaining on Twitter when someone once sees onion messages.

815
01:11:03.225 --> 01:11:06.125
Are you just not a big fan of onions? Like, do you have something against onions?

816
01:11:07.220 --> 01:11:09.240
I want to leave the onions for me to eat.

817
01:11:10.420 --> 01:11:14.120
No. Stop using the onion. So, I mean, there could even be, like,

818
01:11:18.625 --> 01:11:23.045
I mean, like, a a big thing is, like, this idea of, like, reusable

819
01:11:23.585 --> 01:11:24.085
invoices

820
01:11:25.170 --> 01:11:25.750
on Lightning,

821
01:11:26.690 --> 01:11:33.110
you could just serve you could just serve invoices through Nostra. Right? Like, it could just hit a Nostra Relay and ask

822
01:11:33.485 --> 01:11:41.905
for you to give a new invoice and you hit them. Right? Yep. For sure. You you can do I you can kind of do the DNS resolution stuff

823
01:11:42.830 --> 01:11:43.330
through

824
01:11:43.790 --> 01:11:48.130
through a through a really instead of, like, a domain name if you wanted to.

825
01:11:48.830 --> 01:11:55.315
Like, I was actually thinking about that the other day as well. Like, you can even like, you know, how bit 47 requires that transaction

826
01:11:55.855 --> 01:11:56.755
to do the handshake?

827
01:11:57.454 --> 01:12:00.675
Maybe you can you can bypass that and just do it over

828
01:12:01.030 --> 01:12:09.295
Nostra. Over and over Nostra events. You know? I mean, you can do so many things over Nostra, and it won't cost you and blow the the blockchain just to do it.

829
01:12:10.335 --> 01:12:11.475
So so bit 47

830
01:12:12.015 --> 01:12:12.515
notifications,

831
01:12:13.775 --> 01:12:14.275
lnurl,

832
01:12:14.655 --> 01:12:18.515
that kind of stuff can happen over in Austria instead of DNS or or blockchain,

833
01:12:19.370 --> 01:12:20.030
you know,

834
01:12:20.810 --> 01:12:21.310
operators.

835
01:12:22.010 --> 01:12:23.310
One thing I wanted to mention

836
01:12:23.610 --> 01:12:26.110
was, you know, we could actually create a signal

837
01:12:26.415 --> 01:12:34.434
alternative if we if we have some smart crypto people to come in and put together a double ratchet spec on Nostra. So, yeah, we have encrypted DMs, but if your key was ever leaked,

838
01:12:35.900 --> 01:12:50.395
then all your DMs are leaked, which is not ideal. But there's no reason why you couldn't implement something like signal on top of Nostra. So that is something I would I would be really interested in. I'm not a crypto person. So if anyone is, like, would like to think about that on Nostra, I would love to hear them. And I can implement that in my app.

839
01:12:52.469 --> 01:12:54.170
The the big problem with that is,

840
01:12:54.630 --> 01:12:59.875
the metadata that leaks. Like, if you're using public relays, could be solved if you use, like,

841
01:13:00.435 --> 01:13:03.575
a private relay that promises to not give you metadata.

842
01:13:05.395 --> 01:13:11.480
I don't know if there's a better way. And then you're still trusting them in that situation that they're actually not keeping logs. Right?

843
01:13:12.020 --> 01:13:12.760
Yeah. Yeah.

844
01:13:13.300 --> 01:13:13.960
I think

845
01:13:15.625 --> 01:13:18.925
for for now, I think you should maybe focus more on the

846
01:13:19.465 --> 01:13:19.965
public

847
01:13:20.745 --> 01:13:26.830
public stuff, like public group public chat groups and public hosting and Yeah. These other protocols

848
01:13:27.450 --> 01:13:34.430
that are interesting that, we didn't make a made a notable thing that I I wanted to use, but I don't have a an iPhone.

849
01:13:34.865 --> 01:13:35.365
Anyway

850
01:13:37.585 --> 01:13:41.685
Yeah. It could be a a separate app instead of being stuck inside

851
01:13:42.065 --> 01:13:44.565
the the apps that do social thing.

852
01:13:45.489 --> 01:13:46.770
Most of you guys

853
01:13:47.730 --> 01:13:52.790
Yeah. So what Fia Jaf's referring to is I created a, a Nostra account that's called my notepad@g55.com,

854
01:13:53.570 --> 01:13:56.345
and I've been using it as a notepad as, like, Twitter threads.

855
01:13:57.045 --> 01:14:07.030
So and I'm like, oh, just as an experiment. Because in in the future, I could potentially create a view or someone could create an app as a view that renders that thread as a notepad, like a thread in notepad, which might be interesting.

856
01:14:10.585 --> 01:14:11.724
And what is this?

857
01:14:12.184 --> 01:14:16.204
A little bit unrelated, but in my settings, I have, like, this NIPO 5

858
01:14:16.824 --> 01:14:17.324
identifier.

859
01:14:20.260 --> 01:14:23.880
I don't know if yeah. I I can explain that, but if you unless you want to.

860
01:14:24.420 --> 01:14:25.775
I think it's better if you

861
01:14:26.175 --> 01:14:26.675
explain.

862
01:14:26.975 --> 01:14:32.034
Yeah. So it's it's really simple. It's very much like that whole if you're if you're familiar with lNurals or,

863
01:14:32.655 --> 01:14:50.175
basically, there's a well known path on your web server. So it does require you to run some infrastructure, some web servers. But, you know, it's like dot well known dash. I think it's, it's like It's the lightning address resolution thing. Yeah. So it's / nostra.json. Inside that JSON file, you have a mapping from,

864
01:14:50.635 --> 01:14:52.480
pub keys to a

865
01:14:52.860 --> 01:14:57.520
username. And and so, basically, clients can use that to confirm that a pub key,

866
01:14:58.140 --> 01:15:00.380
maps to your domain. So that's just a way to

867
01:15:01.045 --> 01:15:15.550
And this is why you and Fiat Jaffe are blue checks because you own the website that is your username. Yeah. So you can imagine one day, there's, like, a domus. Io. And people it's like a Twitter where people can sign up and they would get like a their username at damas dot I o. And then,

868
01:15:16.250 --> 01:15:18.110
yeah. And they would have like an official username.

869
01:15:20.585 --> 01:15:27.725
Yeah. And just to clarify, like, this this gives you a human real goal username that's pretty much like the Mastodon stuff.

870
01:15:28.585 --> 01:15:30.350
But you're not you're not

871
01:15:30.889 --> 01:15:38.590
that username is not your identity. Like, once the the person finds you, they will follow your puppy It's a puppy. Your name. Yeah.

872
01:15:40.525 --> 01:15:41.665
But what about

873
01:15:43.405 --> 01:15:46.910
I'm sorry if any of these I'm just brainstorming live on air.

874
01:15:48.990 --> 01:15:55.095
Is there something there about using, you know, your lightning pub key, signing a message with your lightning node

875
01:15:55.575 --> 01:15:57.495
instead of running a web server to prove your

876
01:15:58.775 --> 01:16:06.680
who who you are? You could totally create lightning or, Nostra messages from your lightning nodes private key, where it might be interesting. And then

877
01:16:07.060 --> 01:16:08.580
I don't know if it would map directly to,

878
01:16:09.860 --> 01:16:11.480
Nostra pubkey, but

879
01:16:13.485 --> 01:16:17.105
I was just thinking, like, if the client just allows you to

880
01:16:17.965 --> 01:16:22.225
oh, I guess the relay would have to do the challenge response. Right? Not the client.

881
01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:26.500
So that would work. Could be any of those.

882
01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:27.460
Yeah.

883
01:16:28.800 --> 01:16:34.485
You mean, like, the the the lightning node could could use it its own port key, and then

884
01:16:35.025 --> 01:16:39.605
the relay or the client could check if that lightning node exists and has channels?

885
01:16:40.050 --> 01:16:43.350
Like, this is this is one way to prevent spam, I think.

886
01:16:43.969 --> 01:16:44.469
But,

887
01:16:45.010 --> 01:16:50.715
I don't think it's very easy to do it now to reduce your lightning or top key, right, like that.

888
01:16:51.974 --> 01:16:53.994
I mean, I was thinking, like, the way,

889
01:16:55.390 --> 01:16:57.650
like, you can sign a message with your

890
01:16:58.350 --> 01:17:02.610
key your lightning keys to, like, access a website to sign in.

891
01:17:03.954 --> 01:17:09.255
But this is on the client that's on the client side, so it can't it wouldn't really work in this situation. Right?

892
01:17:10.099 --> 01:17:15.559
It would. It would. Definitely. You could sign an event and use it to log in with your nother identity

893
01:17:16.260 --> 01:17:18.920
regardless of where that what he came from.

894
01:17:19.485 --> 01:17:26.864
But I I was thinking, like, the idea you you reminded me of, another way to prevent pain is that you could

895
01:17:27.380 --> 01:17:30.920
take a a a key pair and make

896
01:17:31.460 --> 01:17:34.040
a Bitcoin address from that. And then

897
01:17:35.355 --> 01:17:39.375
some relay or some client would require you to have some money on that address,

898
01:17:40.155 --> 01:17:44.880
some some out there to allow you message from you. So

899
01:17:46.060 --> 01:17:48.240
you that's an anti spam way too.

900
01:17:49.784 --> 01:17:50.025
Anyway

901
01:17:51.144 --> 01:17:52.684
I just stumbled on,

902
01:17:53.945 --> 01:18:06.619
not jb 55, and it has all capped flocks key compromise. This is not my account. What's the story of that? Oh my god. I was test I saw I was working on a command line app called nostril. I know I'm really good at naming things.

903
01:18:07.545 --> 01:18:16.880
But it's, basically, just a c application that can generate nostril events. And I, like, fudged the environment variable so that I'd made a post that just broadcasted my secret key.

904
01:18:18.699 --> 01:18:27.365
So I'm like, oh, shit. But luckily, it was actually pretty easy to migrate just to a new key. I just, like, copied my old contact list to a new key, and then just, like, move my net zero five

905
01:18:27.745 --> 01:18:33.540
to to the new account, and it was done. And I and I migrated easily. So that was an that was a pretty it was a nice learning experience, but,

906
01:18:34.400 --> 01:18:37.060
since then, I've actually I'm working on a spec that,

907
01:18:37.920 --> 01:18:39.940
where so, like, private key material,

908
01:18:40.485 --> 01:18:42.825
is actually encoded differently so that,

909
01:18:43.445 --> 01:18:49.225
if you actually try to accidentally tweak your private key, maybe clients can detect that and stop you from doing something stupid. But yeah.

910
01:18:49.570 --> 01:18:54.710
Yeah. That's very much needed. I'm I'm very confused about the the key formats as they are.

911
01:18:55.170 --> 01:18:55.670
Yeah.

912
01:18:56.565 --> 01:18:59.225
Yeah. So we're thinking about just using, batch 32,

913
01:18:59.685 --> 01:19:04.025
and then and then having a specific prefix for private keys and public keys kinda

914
01:19:04.485 --> 01:19:05.304
might be ideal.

915
01:19:12.590 --> 01:19:16.345
Sorry. I'm just clicking around No Str right now. I keep getting distracted.

916
01:19:19.685 --> 01:19:23.225
So you guys have anything else you wanna talk about? I mean, I think this has been a great conversation.

917
01:19:23.810 --> 01:19:27.110
I don't really know enough about Nostra to know what my next question is.

918
01:19:31.489 --> 01:19:32.070
I mean,

919
01:19:32.514 --> 01:19:39.255
from from my end, most of my use cases around Allstar are gonna be around not building the alternative to Twitter.

920
01:19:40.530 --> 01:19:43.429
So I fucked up the title of the the podcast.

921
01:19:45.810 --> 01:19:58.969
No. No. We don't need to do that. Those use cases. I love Twitter. I love using Twitter. I actually don't mind that Elon took over Twitter. I think it's fine. I think it's the better situation than we were before, but we're always going to run-in that situation where,

922
01:19:59.270 --> 01:20:07.725
you know, you know, maybe Elon won't be there all the time. And we're still we're still gonna need a decentralized solution of, like, a decentralized information relaying protocol that doesn't currently exist.

923
01:20:08.105 --> 01:20:11.245
So regardless, I think it's interesting to be working on this and to,

924
01:20:11.705 --> 01:20:15.645
I still like the I really like the private Twitter use cases to have that within your own organization,

925
01:20:16.497 --> 01:20:22.829
and then having events being generated from your from your business, and you can and you can respond to it, and then jump into a Slack room,

926
01:20:23.130 --> 01:20:29.735
based off those events and things like that. I don't know. There's a lot of interesting use cases, which I think are, have yet to been kind of discovered. So

927
01:20:32.030 --> 01:20:34.930
If you want, I can cite more use cases I've been noting.

928
01:20:35.630 --> 01:20:37.570
Like, one is that remember that,

929
01:20:38.270 --> 01:20:41.844
these websites are very popular in Brazil called forms Palm Spring.

930
01:20:42.224 --> 01:20:54.679
When you like the social network of people asking questions through others, it's a very fun thing. And you you just ask questions, then the person will respond. With something that's that has died. Those networks where you post

931
01:20:54.980 --> 01:20:57.480
where you are, like, you oh, I'm in this

932
01:20:58.020 --> 01:21:02.645
shop, whatever. These things, they could be done on master too. Yeah.

933
01:21:03.125 --> 01:21:04.985
You could have git over master.

934
01:21:05.844 --> 01:21:07.625
I'm not sure exactly how, but

935
01:21:08.270 --> 01:21:24.285
it's possible for for sure. Yeah. And just give replace radical. Right? You don't need to Yeah. Radical is very, very cool, but it's They're still in the shit quite now. Yeah. Too much. It's going there. You you have 4chan on Nostra? You wanna do a 4chan thing? Wait. Like, it it gets rid of messages after a couple days or something?

936
01:21:24.900 --> 01:21:26.840
You could have you could have to, like,

937
01:21:27.700 --> 01:21:28.440
a central

938
01:21:29.060 --> 01:21:30.040
closed website,

939
01:21:30.580 --> 01:21:39.375
like like many websites exist, they're closed. And they if they use Nostr as their back end, they become, like, an easy export

940
01:21:39.835 --> 01:21:40.975
exportable thing.

941
01:21:41.435 --> 01:21:41.935
And

942
01:21:42.489 --> 01:21:48.270
I think that could be a marketing marketing thing for them and also for you. This is true. Blog comments.

943
01:21:48.969 --> 01:21:50.110
Yeah. Blog comments.

944
01:21:51.525 --> 01:21:52.505
Decentralized Uber,

945
01:21:53.364 --> 01:21:53.864
Uber,

946
01:21:54.165 --> 01:21:55.305
Coworking, Airbnb,

947
01:21:56.725 --> 01:21:57.705
Whatsapp coordinator

948
01:21:58.540 --> 01:22:00.880
announcements. If there are multiple Whatsapp coordinators

949
01:22:01.659 --> 01:22:03.920
that want to announce themselves, we could have

950
01:22:04.380 --> 01:22:07.920
a marketplace. Can't Nasr do, fiat, Jeff? What can it do?

951
01:22:08.435 --> 01:22:10.695
Well, it can't do stock rep networking.

952
01:22:12.115 --> 01:22:17.175
Oh. That's that's the thing, Cooks. If you give me that challenge, I'm gonna try to do it.

953
01:22:18.530 --> 01:22:22.790
Mister Cook said we were going to do that, but I don't know if it's a better a good idea.

954
01:22:24.210 --> 01:22:26.230
You you remember that sneaker proposal

955
01:22:26.825 --> 01:22:27.645
for Yeah.

956
01:22:28.425 --> 01:22:36.530
Sneaker, I think it would be nice to do it on Oster instead of using the blockchain, the Bitcoin blockchain for it. Yeah. It's the same with all these off return

957
01:22:37.090 --> 01:22:38.470
either off return or

958
01:22:38.850 --> 01:22:47.195
analyzing the entire UTXO set to find something compatible with with your with what you want to do. You can replace all that blockchain bloat or

959
01:22:47.495 --> 01:22:51.355
or scanning with just posting a message to an Oster instead.

960
01:22:52.150 --> 01:22:53.850
I think that will be a lot more useful.

961
01:22:54.630 --> 01:22:58.330
Seems like a great complement to Bitcoin tools just across the board.

962
01:22:59.645 --> 01:23:18.645
I'm already seeing that with my just my my 2 my my Bitcoin core node and my c lightning node and just getting events from them. It's just been because I you know, I think Bitcoin has created this new situation where I I actually really care about the privacy of my UTX UTXOs, and I run these nodes at home. And I wanna make sure that, yeah, I have private info that I can still access on my phone. So

963
01:23:18.945 --> 01:23:22.405
I don't know. I I think it really complements, a lot of the Bitcoin tools.

964
01:23:24.440 --> 01:23:33.094
Yeah. Yeah. You you see that Agora, that that thing that you sell files? I think selling files is nice, but the way it's being done, like, you have to

965
01:23:33.975 --> 01:23:42.400
you don't have a central place to go browse files to buy. So, like, you know, there's so much that you open an issue in the repo to take the but, of course, they they

966
01:23:43.040 --> 01:23:43.700
I'm just

967
01:23:44.160 --> 01:23:45.940
off offshooting the work to them.

968
01:23:46.320 --> 01:23:58.950
Oh, yeah. So one huge issue on Nostra right now is, image sharing. We have there's no really way I mean, it's not really it doesn't make sense to spec it into Nostra because Nostra is not meant for, like, sharing large media. But it's actually pretty important. Most people like to share a picture, like, on the

969
01:24:00.470 --> 01:24:07.850
Twitter feed or something. So, yeah, that's something I'm thinking about right now in my client. Like, how do I do image posts? Because it's, like, it's not a part of the protocol. So

970
01:24:09.065 --> 01:24:10.284
How are you gonna do it?

971
01:24:11.545 --> 01:24:13.565
I don't know. Paid service. I I don't wanna

972
01:24:13.945 --> 01:24:21.340
charge people for, like, to do file uploads just for file uploads, but and maybe I'll make make it more of an experience. It'll just include file uploads.

973
01:24:24.364 --> 01:24:31.165
Like, you pay some sats to host a host a file? Some people suggested, like, be able to configure. This is

974
01:24:31.725 --> 01:24:44.795
these are pretty advanced, but, like, configuring SFTP or s their your personal s 3 or maybe s s 3 bucket, a d AWS credentials or like, there's a lot of things you can do if you're, like, technical, but for nontechnical people, they I don't know if there's a good solution other than

975
01:24:45.195 --> 01:24:48.575
Oh, AWS is not a good solution for technical people either.

976
01:24:50.070 --> 01:24:52.489
Like, how many API keys or whatever you have

977
01:24:52.790 --> 01:24:56.010
to create an IRM account or I don't know.

978
01:24:57.205 --> 01:25:01.145
Yeah. I think paying is good if you could pay to host host files.

979
01:25:01.525 --> 01:25:06.940
If anyone has ideas, someone suggested, like, a imageral image Imager API or something. Like, oh, I don't know if that'll work. But

980
01:25:08.059 --> 01:25:11.599
I mean, then you're just holding all the photos on Imager's servers.

981
01:25:13.445 --> 01:25:15.784
Yeah. So it's open question. Anyone have any ideas,

982
01:25:16.724 --> 01:25:17.545
to hear them?

983
01:25:20.699 --> 01:25:22.880
So I noticed there's a character count.

984
01:25:23.340 --> 01:25:25.760
Is that on the client side or the relay side?

985
01:25:26.780 --> 01:25:27.280
Either.

986
01:25:28.140 --> 01:25:40.580
Could be either, though. Yeah. On Bradley on client side, it's very bad. I should I should have removed that. Yeah. And, I've actually I'm actually using it as a pastebin. My client doesn't have a limit, so I just been, like, posting code snippets that are referred to,

987
01:25:41.120 --> 01:25:42.420
which is I don't know if that's

988
01:25:42.720 --> 01:25:49.995
kinda frowned upon, but I know it's kinda cool. I mean, because I wanted to when I posted the first time, I wanted to post a PGP sign message,

989
01:25:50.935 --> 01:25:52.235
and I couldn't fit it.

990
01:25:53.415 --> 01:26:02.210
So it'd be nice if Could I use a different app? If the character count was higher if I'm just doing requests. Could I could I use a better app? What about upvotes and likes? Stressing my app.

991
01:26:02.910 --> 01:26:04.610
Sorry. It's so easy.

992
01:26:05.945 --> 01:26:07.565
What about I can do both.

993
01:26:07.945 --> 01:26:09.325
How do we feel about that?

994
01:26:10.105 --> 01:26:13.485
Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm implementing likes and retweets right now.

995
01:26:14.185 --> 01:26:16.599
I think lightning tips are gonna be next after that.

996
01:26:17.219 --> 01:26:21.960
Yeah. Totally doable. There's another note type that you just Is that client side or relay side?

997
01:26:22.535 --> 01:26:23.435
It's gonna require

998
01:26:23.815 --> 01:26:32.590
I mean, it doesn't have relays don't have to change anything. It's just gonna clients are gonna create a new note type that you query on. So So basically sending a note that says, I like this.

999
01:26:33.370 --> 01:26:54.969
Yeah. And you gotta be smart about it in the sense, maybe not count the same. Like, if someone creates multiple like events, you don't wanna count those twice. But for the most part, it's okay. And there's also issues, let's say, spam bots are creating lots of like events and, like, you count those. So maybe there's a reputation system around it, so it gets kinda complicated. But most people aren't even using Nostra, so I don't I'm not really worried about that right now. Right? So just just, something simple to start, I think.

1000
01:26:55.945 --> 01:26:56.824
I know there's a

1001
01:26:57.785 --> 01:27:03.805
I I think has an open pull request for a reputation scheme, but I haven't looked at it yet.

1002
01:27:04.530 --> 01:27:06.150
Oh, yeah. It's very, very simple

1003
01:27:06.530 --> 01:27:09.270
web of trust bank, but with with

1004
01:27:09.810 --> 01:27:15.075
categories. Like, you you you would trust someone on some category, but not on others.

1005
01:27:15.615 --> 01:27:23.620
And it's it was meant to be on the marketplace thing I would I was going to work on, but I jump into other things. I'll go back to it someday.

1006
01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:25.620
And, like, all these marketplaces,

1007
01:27:26.400 --> 01:27:34.185
decentralized marketplaces, they need some reputation thing. So, like, basically oh, yeah. One one big use case I wanted to make, but I couldn't get this.

1008
01:27:35.365 --> 01:27:37.945
Just if you go exchanging Bitcoin for field

1009
01:27:39.270 --> 01:27:40.969
based based on reputation only.

1010
01:27:41.989 --> 01:27:45.210
This would not so would be the marketplace. I guess

1011
01:27:45.590 --> 01:27:47.025
I guess that could kind of

1012
01:27:47.585 --> 01:27:48.085
emulate

1013
01:27:48.705 --> 01:27:51.844
the workflow that happens on on BISK. Right?

1014
01:27:54.225 --> 01:27:54.965
Yeah. BISK.

1015
01:27:55.960 --> 01:27:58.140
Yeah. I don't know. This is so complicated.

1016
01:28:00.200 --> 01:28:09.085
Yeah. You can make a simplified version of it. I I want I was thinking just a trusted thing. Like, I send you the money, and I trust you for giving me my coin.

1017
01:28:09.545 --> 01:28:14.230
That works in many places. There are many people that do this kind of deal.

1018
01:28:14.690 --> 01:28:20.425
I think a little reputation goes a long way. And you could do, like, small small amounts too. So

1019
01:28:25.304 --> 01:28:27.324
but you could do the disc style too

1020
01:28:27.625 --> 01:28:28.614
if you want.

1021
01:28:31.210 --> 01:28:32.750
And then we have a question.

1022
01:28:35.050 --> 01:28:35.870
By the way,

1023
01:28:36.730 --> 01:28:42.035
as you were talking about spam, one of we got a spam message in, Twitch, which I thought was hilarious,

1024
01:28:43.855 --> 01:28:47.075
by followers, primes, and viewers. But we got a different,

1025
01:28:47.455 --> 01:28:48.915
message in Twitch

1026
01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:52.180
asking about, the origin of the name.

1027
01:28:53.200 --> 01:28:56.900
I know it stands for notes and other stuff transmitted by relays,

1028
01:28:57.995 --> 01:29:00.175
But is there a story behind that, or

1029
01:29:00.555 --> 01:29:02.875
did you just, like, decide one day that you're gonna

1030
01:29:04.155 --> 01:29:05.775
Well, I'm very good at anything.

1031
01:29:06.890 --> 01:29:12.990
So I just came the inspiration came. No. Actually, I was asking about people what name should be, and Supertestnet

1032
01:29:13.645 --> 01:29:21.905
gave gave me an idea. Like, he suggested something that was like that. And then I just speaking it to to and found,

1033
01:29:22.525 --> 01:29:23.265
like, a

1034
01:29:23.870 --> 01:29:24.370
a

1035
01:29:24.830 --> 01:29:25.330
good

1036
01:29:25.870 --> 01:29:27.730
a good, like, full name for the economy.

1037
01:29:28.750 --> 01:29:30.530
I don't know if it's a good name or whatever.

1038
01:29:30.989 --> 01:29:42.175
That's I mean, I none of us know how to pronounce it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very good name. Yeah. That's that's a great deal. I think we can all agree that you're not a bug. I think we can all agree that, yeah, Jeff is really good at naming things. So

1039
01:29:43.040 --> 01:29:47.940
Well, l n t x pod is a good name. It is. Yeah.

1040
01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:50.260
Very straight to the point.

1041
01:29:55.475 --> 01:30:01.735
Yeah. Well, guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I implore all our listeners to go check out Nostra,

1042
01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:04.580
provide feedback,

1043
01:30:04.880 --> 01:30:08.260
play around with it. If you're a developer, consider contributing.

1044
01:30:09.280 --> 01:30:13.235
Do you guys have any while I have you here, do you have any opinions on this,

1045
01:30:14.755 --> 01:30:16.295
bit 1 19 controversy?

1046
01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:21.060
I've been trying to stay out of it. I mean,

1047
01:30:22.560 --> 01:30:39.370
I I can see why people want covenants, and I'm, like, I don't know. I I'm personally not interested, so I've been trying to stay out of the fight. But I do I am concerned that it it was kinda getting pushed through pretty quickly without the lots of other review and other ways of looking at it. I don't know. I just it just feels wrong the way that it's been that it went about. But

1048
01:30:41.045 --> 01:30:44.345
yeah, I I love covenants, but I'm staying out of it.

1049
01:30:46.805 --> 01:30:50.390
Oh, I'm I'm for it. I think we should do it as quickly as possible.

1050
01:30:50.929 --> 01:30:51.429
And

1051
01:30:52.370 --> 01:30:54.949
what I think some of the arguments

1052
01:30:55.250 --> 01:30:57.670
or people that don't want it are are not

1053
01:30:58.345 --> 01:30:59.885
very sound in my opinion. And,

1054
01:31:00.345 --> 01:31:05.165
anyway, you should read what Jeremy is saying. Jeremy is is being very insightful

1055
01:31:05.465 --> 01:31:06.525
in the things he's

1056
01:31:06.905 --> 01:31:07.405
posting.

1057
01:31:08.010 --> 01:31:10.730
I do like the I do like the Vault use case, and then,

1058
01:31:11.690 --> 01:31:18.505
James's demo of it of that is pretty cool. I don't know if that's enough to, like, warrant pushing it through, but it is a really cool use case.

1059
01:31:18.885 --> 01:31:26.350
Well, I'm interested in space chains because I want to make a space chain to for domain names and replace DNS, and I can.

1060
01:31:26.730 --> 01:31:29.070
That's all I care. That's all I want. Like,

1061
01:31:29.450 --> 01:31:32.190
Bitcoin has so many money, and now Bitcoin will solve

1062
01:31:33.185 --> 01:31:37.365
DNS. And I don't think there's there's any man anymore anymore.

1063
01:31:37.985 --> 01:31:41.125
And if you don't You want a you want a space name coin?

1064
01:31:42.370 --> 01:31:47.350
Yeah. And that's a space chain without any coin. It's just the names and anchor it on Bitcoin.

1065
01:31:47.650 --> 01:31:49.190
No shit coins. No tokens.

1066
01:31:51.355 --> 01:31:51.855
Yeah.

1067
01:31:53.195 --> 01:31:54.495
On the note of shitcoins,

1068
01:31:55.355 --> 01:31:57.855
if you had Jeff, what are you what are your thoughts on Taro?

1069
01:32:00.430 --> 01:32:00.930
Oh,

1070
01:32:02.110 --> 01:32:09.344
I I don't like the shit coins. I don't I don't like token. I I understand that people some people want these things and as market.

1071
01:32:10.605 --> 01:32:18.210
And so it's fine. It's fine. But I also I think space chains are a better solution for people that want to to make tokens.

1072
01:32:18.670 --> 01:32:23.970
I just said no tokens, but you could have a space change for a space change for issued assets,

1073
01:32:24.815 --> 01:32:26.594
like like like

1074
01:32:26.895 --> 01:32:28.195
dollar tokens, etcetera.

1075
01:32:28.495 --> 01:32:37.619
So if we have bit 119 with CTV, we get space change without anything else? We get a space change. Yeah. Or either b 119 or b 118.

1076
01:32:38.239 --> 01:32:40.179
You can do with any of those.

1077
01:32:41.015 --> 01:32:43.995
Yeah. And what's the trade offs of space chains?

1078
01:32:47.095 --> 01:32:48.395
It's a separate blockchain

1079
01:32:49.150 --> 01:32:54.370
that you can publish stuff on it, but it doesn't have a native currency. So

1080
01:32:55.310 --> 01:32:55.470
you

1081
01:32:56.715 --> 01:32:59.535
there's no trade offs, basically. It's it's Netco.

1082
01:33:00.155 --> 01:33:05.535
There's definitely You have to mine you have to mine that that separate blockchain, and you mine it by entering

1083
01:33:05.890 --> 01:33:14.070
it on a on a Bitcoin transaction. Your an entire block of an entire space chain block fits in one transaction 1 Bitcoin transaction.

1084
01:33:14.675 --> 01:33:16.534
And then do you get paid for that?

1085
01:33:16.915 --> 01:33:24.610
Yeah. The miner is the person that gets paid for the space chain users and pays for the for the Bitcoin transaction. And you're they get paid in?

1086
01:33:25.150 --> 01:33:29.490
Yeah. That's that's the, yeah, that's the trade off. That's the problem. My in,

1087
01:33:29.870 --> 01:33:32.130
Rubin Thompson proposed the idea of having

1088
01:33:33.745 --> 01:33:49.150
Space Coin. That is a coin that is created from burning Bitcoins that use it to pay miners on the space chain, but I I don't like that. I think they could be paid off band, like, in a trusted sense. Like, you go to the miner website and say, mine this block this for me, and they mine it. And

1089
01:33:49.455 --> 01:33:52.435
it's censorship resistant because you have you can have multiple miners.

1090
01:33:52.815 --> 01:34:03.840
Anyone can be a miner at any time. And the miners compete with each other by by bidding on the transaction that goes on the Bitcoin blockchain, and they they just if there are more than 1 miner competing,

1091
01:34:04.219 --> 01:34:09.985
they can outbid each other and not load the Bitcoin chain. They just in the end in the end of the bidding,

1092
01:34:11.244 --> 01:34:13.744
they one of them will publish one transaction

1093
01:34:14.300 --> 01:34:20.240
with a high bid a high fee to the bit Bitcoin chain. So could you use Noister in that bidding process?

1094
01:34:21.585 --> 01:34:32.659
The bidding process happens directly in the Bitcoin man pool. Like, you try to publish the next block, and you see that there's someone else outbidding your transaction. And you'll get you do outbid

1095
01:34:33.280 --> 01:34:40.635
it if you have more more money to be like. If you have more clients who are willing to to pay you for or you you can wait for the next block to

1096
01:34:41.195 --> 01:34:55.625
but you don't need an answer for that for that part. You could need an answer for the space chain part that coordinates the transaction being sent. If you don't wanna build a new peer to peer system like Bitcoin for the space chain, if this pure space chain is very simple, you could use Nasr

1097
01:34:56.005 --> 01:34:57.785
to propagate transactions there.

1098
01:34:58.565 --> 01:35:02.370
So your transaction will change. Yeah. There are there are many ways to do it.

1099
01:35:03.250 --> 01:35:07.670
But the the basic idea is that all cool blockchain use cases,

1100
01:35:08.530 --> 01:35:14.485
you can do them now without any tokens, without coin, any shitcoins. And there are some there are these

1101
01:35:15.265 --> 01:35:15.765
issued

1102
01:35:16.545 --> 01:35:21.659
stable things. There are maybe NFTs that I don't like them, but maybe there some people

1103
01:35:21.960 --> 01:35:22.619
like. And

1104
01:35:23.239 --> 01:35:27.179
and also the domain name thing that's more the most important connection.

1105
01:35:30.895 --> 01:35:32.355
Why do you why are we laughing?

1106
01:35:33.455 --> 01:35:37.715
No. I'm just I we just we've just gone completely off track.

1107
01:35:39.199 --> 01:35:40.820
I mean, I appreciate the insight.

1108
01:35:41.360 --> 01:35:44.900
Before we wrap up, I guess, let's wrap up with some final thoughts.

1109
01:35:46.505 --> 01:35:47.965
Final thoughts, mister Kooks.

1110
01:35:49.864 --> 01:35:50.364
Yeah.

1111
01:35:51.145 --> 01:35:54.605
We should really just keep on building on Noster and not NFTs.

1112
01:35:56.070 --> 01:35:56.570
Yeah.

1113
01:35:57.989 --> 01:35:58.730
No NFTs.

1114
01:35:59.110 --> 01:36:02.090
Thank you, mister Kooks. Final thoughts via Jeff.

1115
01:36:03.350 --> 01:36:04.489
Well, try Browning,

1116
01:36:06.125 --> 01:36:07.824
but try to make a better client.

1117
01:36:09.565 --> 01:36:11.264
I I challenge you, listener.

1118
01:36:12.380 --> 01:36:12.880
Or

1119
01:36:14.300 --> 01:36:19.600
maybe Awesome. Rally. That's that's better. Thank you, Fia, Jeff. Will, final thoughts.

1120
01:36:20.645 --> 01:36:21.705
Yeah. I think,

1121
01:36:23.045 --> 01:36:30.690
I think we got we've gotten to the point where people think that these open protocols are just too hard to use or even just, like, it's too hard to run your own nodes. And,

1122
01:36:31.230 --> 01:36:41.784
but we're we're starting to see different trade offs in this this this, like, larger design spaces. Actually, it's not too hard to create this decentralized open protocol and to get into the network without without without having to run any nodes. Right?

1123
01:36:42.244 --> 01:36:43.704
So I think that is

1124
01:36:44.085 --> 01:36:53.930
one important insight that Nostra provides, and I hope there are more protocols like this. And, yeah, protocols are awesome, and we should try to avoid we should try to use protocols instead of, closed platforms.

1125
01:36:55.030 --> 01:36:55.850
Fuck. Yeah.

1126
01:36:56.310 --> 01:36:57.290
I actually just

1127
01:36:57.824 --> 01:37:00.165
I just one quick question,

1128
01:37:00.705 --> 01:37:01.764
before we end.

1129
01:37:04.225 --> 01:37:10.320
The most relays are holding all of my messages. Right? So I don't need to have my client online for you to view them.

1130
01:37:10.699 --> 01:37:11.199
Correct.

1131
01:37:12.060 --> 01:37:12.560
Awesome.

1132
01:37:13.500 --> 01:37:18.614
Okay. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming on. Appreciate your work with Nostra.

1133
01:37:21.635 --> 01:37:23.655
I came into this very

1134
01:37:27.300 --> 01:37:27.800
undereducated

1135
01:37:28.500 --> 01:37:31.960
on on the implications of Nostra, but it seems like

1136
01:37:32.420 --> 01:37:35.000
it is way larger than just a

1137
01:37:36.284 --> 01:37:37.184
Twitter replacement,

1138
01:37:38.525 --> 01:37:42.945
and I'm very bullish on that aspect. That seems really fucking cool and powerful.

1139
01:37:43.740 --> 01:37:45.200
And, I hope,

1140
01:37:46.460 --> 01:37:47.760
the freaks also

1141
01:37:48.860 --> 01:37:53.985
found this conversation helpful and and will contribute back and and help this project grow.

1142
01:37:54.364 --> 01:37:57.425
So with all that, I wanna I wanna thank our guests one more time,

1143
01:37:57.725 --> 01:38:01.264
and I wanna thank everyone who joined us live. Cheers, guys. Thank you.

1144
01:38:02.125 --> 01:38:04.450
Thanks. This is great. Thank you

1145
01:38:08.350 --> 01:38:09.100
very much.

1146
01:40:19.224 --> 01:40:21.085
What you'll get.

1147
01:40:24.585 --> 01:40:25.804
This is what

1148
01:40:26.184 --> 01:40:26.684
you'll

1149
01:40:26.985 --> 01:40:27.485
get.

1150
01:40:31.090 --> 01:40:32.230
This is what

1151
01:40:32.690 --> 01:40:33.750
you'll get

1152
01:40:34.530 --> 01:40:35.095
for your

1153
01:42:33.165 --> 01:42:34.145
Love you, freaks.

1154
01:42:35.245 --> 01:42:37.585
I think I'm gonna kick it with some Kendrick

1155
01:42:38.976 --> 01:42:39.636
on vinyl.

1156
01:42:40.016 --> 01:42:41.476
Stambled stack sets.

CD63: building nostr, a censorship resistant alternative to twitter with @fiatjaf, @jb55, and @MrKukks

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