April 19, 2022
CD62: bisq, mempool, and open source software with @wiz
EPISODE: 62
BLOCK: 732582
PRICE: 2412 sats per dollar
TOPICS: mempool, bisq, open source licenses, transaction fee markets, miner incentives, the ideal privacy preserving trading protocol, vinyls
https://citadeldispatch.com/cd62
@wiz: https://twitter.com/@wiz
streamed live every tuesday:
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00:01 - Decentralized peer-to-peer system for making and processing payments
01:26 - Bitcoin privacy, freedom, and open source software
02:05 - Ways to support dispatch
44:14 - Bitcoin fee market and transaction acceleration
45:11 - Out of band payments and their impact on the free market
48:59 - The relationship between Bitcoin fees and transaction data size
01:27:50 - Trademark and code in open-source projects
01:28:32 - Introduction to Bisk and its features
01:30:38 - Working with the Bisk project
02:10:27 - The mechanics of the BSQ token
02:12:09 - The Burning Man role in Bisk
02:13:24 - The potential issues with tokenomics
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:26:00 PM
Duration: 9132.591
Channels: 1
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Most recently,
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new technology has raised the possibility
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of reduced alliance reliance
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on centralized
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intermediaries,
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like banks
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and credit card companies.
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In 2,008,
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a person or group of people
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using the pseudonym
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Satoshi
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Nakamoto
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proposed a decentralized
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peer to peer system for making and processing payments.
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A key challenge in digital payments
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is to prevent the same assets from being spent twice.
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The Bitcoin
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white paper
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proposed a novel method for validating
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transactions
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using cryptography
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that addressed the so called double spend problem.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy Odell here for Citadel Dispatch 62.
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Citadel Dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin privacy, freedom, and open source software.
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We're joined here by
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repeat guest Wiz. I will get to him in a moment.
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We are both in person. This is gonna be a fun in person rip.
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As always, I wanna thank all
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the freaks out there for supporting Cielo Dispatch. Cielo Dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.
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Without you, I would this show would not be possible.
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There are multiple ways you can support dispatch.
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You can stream sats to the show using a podcasting 2.0 app. My two favorites are fountain podcasts and Breeze Wallet. They work like regular podcast apps. Load them up with sats. Choose how many sats per minute,
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you think dispatch is worth.
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And then as you listen, it will stream sats directly to my node.
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You can also contribute via BTC pay server located at sidildispatch.com.
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Lightning and on chain is accepted, or you can
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pay via my BIP 47 payment code, which is located@dispatch.com/contribute.
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If you are tight on stats
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and you still wanna support the show, you can also support us
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by sharing the show with your friends and family,
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clicking the subscribe button in whatever podcasting app you like to use. It's available on every single podcasting app, including Apple Podcasts,
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if you so desire,
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and leaving a review. Reviews do actually help a lot in terms of getting the show,
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you know, better algorithm placement or whatever the fuck they're doing over there.
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Anyway, with all that said, our great intro to this show was,
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treasury secretary Janet Yellen explaining Bitcoin,
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or at least her speechwriter explaining Bitcoin and her reading the words out loud, which was kind of unreal to see. I mean, when
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a lot
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myself included
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Twitter, we thought it might be a deep fake,
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but it turns out real. So momentous occasion, I guess.
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Let's get to our guest. How's it going, Wiz?
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Hey, Matt. It's great to be here.
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So, Wiz, you've been on the show
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Few times now. Was this the 4th time? I think once with Simon,
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once with Adam back, and now it's just you and me. Let's fucking Adam back. It was a fantastic conversation. Did you meet him in Miami?
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Yeah. I met him a few times. Once was at this, liquid meetup we had, and, of course, he was at the conference venue as well. But, yeah, Miami is great.
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Yeah. Miami is fantastic. I guess let's start there.
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Wiz was heavily involved,
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with me on the open source stage,
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which if you haven't listened to is available on on YouTube shortly, should be available on bitcoin tv.com.
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All three
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days of content are now live in Bitcoin. Awesome. And it's in this podcast feed. I don't know,
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to the rider or die freaks out there, you might have noticed that I just started posting a lot of content on the podcast feed for you guys to get through.
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Hopefully, you appreciate it.
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I also posted
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not just open source stage content from Bitcoin 2022,
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but
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also my mining panel I did,
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with
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Econo Alchemist, Diverter, coin heated,
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and,
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John, the man behind Futurebit.
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And I posted 2 of my Bitcoin takeover talks, which happened at Bitcoin comments in Austin, one with Mahler's,
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and one with legendary
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Andrew Polstra, which is probably the best interview I've ever done. So if you haven't checked that out, consider going back and listening to it after the fact.
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And I have a spicy lightning conversation
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that I will be posting shortly that,
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was with Lisa, rock star, and Miles Souter. So,
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be on the lookout for that. Yeah. All the panels on the open source stage were just pure fire. What was your favorite?
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Well, of course, my favorite Besides the one you were on.
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No. My favorite was definitely, the Mempools panel which I moderated.
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I I can't deny that. I mean, it was just so fun to be on stage with, Murch and Gloria and,
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Sergei from Good Refill talking about the mempool. All star lineup right there. Well, the best panels are just like
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like right now. We're just friends hanging out, having a good conversation, and, everyone else on the Internet is listening. And that's that's when it's,
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really great discussion.
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Yeah. I mean, the open source stage was just I mean, it was, like, 8 months of work. Huge thank you to everyone who helped to make that possible,
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with me. There's just a massive team involved. I mean, so many different moving pieces. And, of course, huge thanks to all the
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all the speakers who joined us. Like, we had,
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I mean, it it it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been
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the great content that it was if it wasn't for all the individuals who came out and actually
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open source stage was the the real conference. That was, like, the real Bitcoin conference inside
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the Bitcoin conference. Well, I mean, I think, you know, part of the balancing act of of these large events is is trying to make it
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make it approachable to a lot of different groups of people. I mean, Bitcoin has there's a lot of subsets of Bitcoiners, and I obviously don't agree with all of them.
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But if if we had to if we had to,
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like or
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agree with all Bitcoiners, then Bitcoin's already failed. Right? The beauty of Bitcoin is that it's for enemies.
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There is there is definitely I mean, look, I mean, we see this with dispatch. Right? So I mean, open source stage,
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if you listen to serial dispatch, was probably,
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pretty familiar to you. It was basically 3 days of civil dispatch.
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But you always see that, like, the flashier stuff, the number go up, price stuff,
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absolving you a personal responsibility.
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That always gets way more engagement. Right? No matter what across the board, whether that's an in person conference.
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We had the main stage, which was full of, like, announcements
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by big names, and you had the humble open source stage, which was just the open source steps. Like, Evan was killing it up on stage moderating his own, panels and everything. And I just felt like
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that was
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the real Bitcoin energy. I mean, even a few years ago,
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the entire Bitcoin conference was, like, the size of just that room. Right. It was, like, the size of the, like, the open source stage was, like, the size of Bitcoin 2019. How many people The whole thing. How many people would you say fit in that room, like, a 1000 or maybe 2,000 max? Fire code is 2,000. Right. So an entire Bitcoin conference being 2,000 people just a few years ago Right. Kind of pretty crazy pretty crazy to imagine. Now, we have just the open source stage with that much, so that was really cool. And the main stage, jeez, what was that? Like, 10,000 people in there? I think it was 15,000 person capacity.
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That's insane.
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Yeah. But, anyway,
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one thing that unfortunately got cut because of budget cuts was
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the live stream,
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of the open source stage.
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And
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do you
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sought out to to fix that. You wanna go into that a little bit?
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Right. I think we all got there on the 1st industry day and
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realized right away that, oh, no. There's no live stream at the open source stage. And you you tweeted out something like, yeah. Sorry, guys.
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There wasn't budget for this or something. And even Jack replied. He's like I was like, I know everyone's disappointed, like, myself included. Like, there's no,
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and I was like, well, I can fix this, you know. So,
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we we got some guys together, some mempool guys, and,
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you know, 1 guy ordered the
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wired Internet connection at the convention center. 1 guy ran to Best Buy to buy, like, a camera, somebody else at the Apple Store to grab, like, a Mac Mini, and I think we rented an 82 inch TV. And,
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yeah. I mean, we had, like, our own pirate livestream going for a while. And To bitcoin tv.com?
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Of course. Where else? Which is what we work on together.
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Yeah. Now we're in the, the world headquarter,
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Bitcoin TV studio, also known as,
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Rod's Garage.
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Oh, no.
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Okay. I I guess I'm kinda doxing it right now. Alright, everyone. Rod has a garage. You've you've officially told the world that he has a garage.
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But, yeah, that's that's, that was a cool project. And Bitcoin TV is,
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was was was in a really cool position because YouTube deleted
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the Bitcoin Magazine channel, like, right in the health conference.
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Yeah.
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And there's there's just,
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there's theories about why that happened, but no one really knows for sure. But it got restored pretty quickly. Why do you think
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Ricardo Salinas.
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So so, I mean, my focus was open source stage, obviously, was my baby.
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So I spent 95% of my time there. I didn't really get to see any of the main stage talks
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or any of the other stages at all. I mean, there was 5 stages in total.
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And I need to go back and watch them. But supposedly, Ricardo Salinas, who is, I believe, the 2nd richest man in Mexico,
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had a talk where he had
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the what's the Bank of in International Settlements guy? Agustin Carstens,
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Christian Lagarde, the big Okay. Christine Lagarde. Yeah. The big guy, Christine Lagarde, and,
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someone else, and he had, like, demonic,
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like like, demon
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horns coming out. And
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as soon as that went up, the account got nuked. So there there was No warning. There was a theory yeah. There was no warnings. Wow. But it got restored relatively quickly. But that just goes to show, like, you don't wanna have,
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you know, Bitcoin Magazine was heavily reliant on YouTube as a streaming platform. Then they also had Rumble and Twitch.
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Right. But you don't want these central points of failure. And at the very least, just to be able to diversify. Right? So, like, all the content will be available on bitcoin tv.com. We're working with them directly. I think a lot of the videos are already up there,
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on either I on the Bitcoin Magazine channel or on Bitcoin TV channel.
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Just kind of, but, anyway, I just thought it was pretty cool to highlight that, like,
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Wiz literally, like, went to the Wiz and a couple guys, like, went to the store. They, like, bought a DSLR,
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like, an expensive Canon.
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They used my podcast mic, my travel podcast mic,
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Mac mini, and an Internet connection, and they were able to do the live stream, which was really fucking cool.
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But as I said, all that content is is still available to be watched. And huge shout out to the video team. I mean, I worked with them directly to make sure that they got the open source. Like, the open source videos were on priority because it wasn't live streamed, so it did get up really quickly.
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Okay. So, I mean, I work with you on Bitcoin TV,
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but you're also heavily involved in a lot of other Bitcoin projects,
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including mempool, bisque, and liquid,
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all open source projects.
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So which one should we start discussing first? What do you wanna talk about first? You wanna talk about mempool first? Yeah. Sure. Let's talk about No one gives a shit about liquid.
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So we'll start we'll start with mempool, and then we'll move to Bisc.
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Yeah. Mempool space is, been getting really popular lately. We just launched the new mining dashboard
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at,
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meetup. At NASH Bitcoiners. At Nashcoiners. Yeah. That was, that was a really cool event. We had about, like, a 100, 200 people there. Usually, we get 200 every month.
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I like to think it's the largest meetup not run by Parker Lewis.
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But
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that that that specific meetup, we had
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a tornado watch. So we had, like, a 100, a 110 people there. Yeah. It was storm pretty good. Only the ride or dies came out.
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And, really, only the the extra ride or dies stayed for a drink afterward. Like, a lot of people bolted as as soon as the meetup ended. Yeah. It was it was storming so hard that night. I remember,
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stepping out of, like, an Uber and just put my foot into, like,
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a foot deep of rainwater.
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Yeah. I mean, when I went home just walking to the car, it was like,
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it was like a 2 minute walk to the car, and I was just completely soaked. It was like I took a bath,
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but that was great. But yeah. So we launched you launched,
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the new mining dashboard, which as as the freaks know,
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we always have we always have mempool space, which is Wiz's mempool,
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up in the background.
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But now they have this mining dashboard. I think I can switch to it. Boom. Switched to it. Thanks.
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If you're watching the video, whether it's the recordings on bitcoin tv.com after the fact or you're watching us live on Twitch or Twitter, twitch.tv/cidlodispatch
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is the best place to watch live.
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You can also watch on Bitcoin TV live, but it's
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you won't get notifications or anything. Oh, yeah. So let's talk about the mining dashboard real quick here. Yeah. So it started last Miami conference. Actually, we had the Biscayne and Pull booth.
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I guess the organizers of the conference just gave us this amazing
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booth location and and, we went all out. We made a bunch of T shirts and everything. But we probably met,
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jeez, maybe 2,000 people at this booth. Like, we just had, huge lines of people,
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you know, coming to to get T shirts and make donations to the project and and talk to us. And one of the,
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one of the groups people that that stopped by was Foundry, the,
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what's what's now the largest mining pool in Bitcoin, but at the time was
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basically zero hash power.
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And, they said, we wanna give you guys a grant,
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support the project, and
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we flew up to New York to meet them there. And,
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they they they essentially asked us said, you know, we'll we'll give you a grant, but we wanna ask you to make, like, more mining related features.
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So we
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researched
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all of the best
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mining dashboards that were out there. And and most mining pools have their own, but they're not open source. Like, Splushpool has a really nice one or Luxor has a very nice one.
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Btc.com
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also had a bunch of charts and stuff. And so I guess we
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just researched all the best ideas and remixed it with our usual mempool space,
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passionate arguments between the guys. And, yeah, over the course of a few months,
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our new developer,
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Capa and and SoftSimon,
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everyone
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I basically locked him in an office for a few weeks and, changed him to the desk and whipped him until the mining dashboard came came out. And, yeah, it was it was great.
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Now you can now you can see all the the historical blockchain data all the way back to the genesis of Bitcoin,
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how mining pools evolved over time, how the difficulty evolved over time, all the typical features you would want if you're interested in mining. So we still have that first mempool dashboard on the home page. But if you click the hammer icon, you get the the mining dashboard, which is optimized for
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not creating transactions, but
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mining transactions. I think one thing that's really cool is, like, if you click the individual pool, you can see the pool's history.
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So, like, I just clicked found you. You can actually see their hash rate climb over time and how quick it climbed. Yeah. It's interesting. Clean way of doing it. I also like the
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if you go into the graphs, you can see
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all the pools doms lined up.
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Found you on the bottom. I guess it's linear order of current hash rate, right, from bottom to top.
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So
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so you can see, like Change it to, like, a 2 year time frame. It's just insane how QuickFoundry just I know. They just came out of nowhere. Right? Like, a year and a half ago, they were literally 0.
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January December 27th like, January 1, 2021, they were basically 0. They were at 0.36%,
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and now they're at
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at 21.20%.
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19%.
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Anyway, so so one of the cool things about mempool. So mempool is an open source project, but then mempool dot space, which is this hosted,
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version of the mempool open source project that obviously uses your node, but you can run the mempool open source project using your own node.
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I know it's incorporated in pretty much
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all the major node projects at this point.
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That's correct. Yeah. We have integrations for one click installation on
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Umbrel, RaspiBlitz,
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MyNode, Ronin Dojo, Citadel, NixOS, and now Start not new sounded. Right? Just shipped it a few days ago. Yeah. So
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pretty much any full node distribution that you're using, you should be able to very easily install
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your own instance of the mempool open source project and monitor your mempool. And then you can you can use your own node with your own mempool.
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You don't have to trust Wiz and Co. Exactly. And you get the privacy benefits of not hitting your servers. Right. You get the security benefits. You don't have to trust what our server
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say,
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the Bitcoin blockchain, because you can verify on your own node. Privacy benefits because any TXIDs
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or addresses that you look up will
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only go to your node. And you also get the censorship resistance in case mental space
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is attacked or or censored off the Internet somehow.
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You don't need to rely on our infrastructure.
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But, of course, if you do
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want to use mempool space, just to quickly check something or maybe you don't have your own Raspberry Pi full node,
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we don't,
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we don't do any, like, long term logging of of,
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user data. We don't share any data with third parties, and it's completely self hosted. So we don't use any hosting companies.
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Whereas, I think, blockchain dot info is hosted on Google Cloud and blockchain dot info is hosted on behind CloudFlare or something. So their trusted third party has a trusted third party. Yes. Well It's literally man in the middle as a service. Right? Yeah. They have all the Cloudflare is. Yeah. I mean, they have all the SSL private keys. They're logging all of your IP addresses with the literally, their service to do that. Yes. And I see why they use it because it's very easy to protect yourself against denial of service attacks if you put yourself behind a trusted third party,
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but you
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should not trust third parties. I mean, trusted third parties or security holes. This is basic. Or at least minimize your trust as much as possible. So, I mean, so you said specifically that you guys don't keep logs, which is obviously great. You wanna hear that from your companies, but it's important for the freaks to realize that there's no way for anyone to independently verify the
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the nonexistence
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of logs. You can't prove,
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that they're deleted or they don't exist.
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So whenever someone says they're not logging, just always take it with a grain of salt,
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because
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a lot of times, they are still logging.
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Yeah. I mean, we Not to accuse you of anything. No. We delete logs after 10 10 days, which is Right. So that's a trust that's a trust model. Of course. But you should not trust me or anyone. Right. And you don't have to. You can just run the Yeah. The open source code yourself with your own node. Even with one click installation, even,
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Boomer Uncle Marty can do it on his Raspberry Pi. Right? Just one click and you have your own Exactly. And it's it's,
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yeah. It's pretty cool how far we've come on that. You know? Yeah. That was that was the original goal of the project was to make
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a self hosted explorer because there was no really good,
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like, one click installation Explorer on a Raspberry Pi at that time.
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And so when we started the mempool project,
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just about 3 years ago, maybe longer now,
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it was just a mempool visualizer, the mempool v 1. And that
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was very easy to get up and running, but mempool v 2 with the full block explorer functionality
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took several months of of hard work to get that working. We had to
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wrap, like, make an interface between different back ends on the Raspberry Pi. So it doesn't only use Bitcoin d. It also uses the, Elektris back end,
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Romancy
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Elektris back end. Right. Electromer server. Right. Which is the typical lightweight one that runs on Raspberry Pis very easily.
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And then for a production server like mempool.space,
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we use Blockstream's fork of that. Blockstream Electris has its own REST API.
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And so we had to kinda go back to the Roman c Electris
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and in our own wrap around that, reimplement
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the Blockstream REST API
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so that you could use it on Raspberry Pi as well. And that's when No. That's interesting. Yeah. So we had a bunch of really cool ideas how to make that work on Raspberry Pi. And once it,
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you know,
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became one click installation on Raspberry Pi, it's you you get the full API. So if you go to mempool space and you click on the I think it's like the doc the documentation, the book icon, All of those APIs,
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of course, work on the mempool space site. But if you have your own Raspberry Pi and you do one click installation on mempool, all those APIs will work exactly the same on your own self hosted Memble instance as well. So you can do at,
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address lookups or transaction lookups
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using your own node very, very easily.
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I mean, what are the trade offs if you're using
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with your own node?
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So it's less performant
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than if we are hitting yours,
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professional server or whatever? It's
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fine for most
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home users.
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So the only real limitation is that the Roman c Electris back end will only support lookups
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on Bitcoin addresses with fewer than 100 transactions.
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So if you're trying to look up a very, very
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popular Bitcoin address,
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that lookup will just
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fail on your Raspberry Pi.
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And, that's not a big deal for most people looking up their own transactions because most people don't reuse addresses. Most wallets shouldn't. Yeah. Right. You should never use reuse reuse addresses, and, most wallets these days are very good about that. I mean,
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HD wallets have been around for a long time now.
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Everyone those are the wallets that automatically give you a new address every
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every time you click receive. Right. Every time you click the receive button, you your wallet will generate a new address, and you typically only have 2 or 3 transactions
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per address.
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So you would not hit that,
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Roman c Electris limit.
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And then what about, like so the whole mining dashboard is also built into the
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Edison? Well, we haven't shipped that for Raspberry Pi. But it will be shipped? It will be. Yeah. So right now, the latest version on Raspberry Pi is 2.3,
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which
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we were running on the site until about, I guess, 2 weeks ago.
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And
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now that Miami is over, we can go back to
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shipping, you know, working on shipping the 2.4
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with the mining dashboard for everyone to Raspberry Pi.
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So I think it's it's it's pretty,
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big project nowadays. I mean, we have total of 8 people,
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working on mempool, and
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we're funded directly by the community.
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We just,
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I guess,
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you know, we we got all the the grants from all the
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the best Bitcoin companies in the space.
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Like, huge thanks to Spiral and Gemini
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and Foundry and Exodus and Unchained and Blockstream of all been very, very gracious. And especially Jack, personally, also,
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very generous donations to the project and the whole He donated personally, and his company donated. Yeah. He's he's,
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probably our biggest supporter,
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both in terms. Not the first supporter, though. Oh, yes. I can't. Who is the first supporter of of the mempool open source project? That would be the man right across from me, mister Matossel.
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First
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and James and Lop actually sent his, donation transaction first, but because Matt had a higher fee, it was confirmed one block before priorities swaps transaction. Yeah. I used a high fee rate on that. So
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once does it you know, Blockchain will show that you were the first to know. Blockchain does not lie.
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So, I mean, I wanna talk about that a little bit. But before I do,
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you know,
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I forgot to mention at the beginning of the show. As always, if you wanna join our live audience chat, which makes the show special,
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we have a fantastic matrix room,
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which is a distributed messaging protocol
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that is you're able to self host.
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And you can get to that, if you're going to citadel dispatch.com
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and clicking that Citadel chat link. It'll take you there, and just you follow the steps, it's easier to install and run it than you might think.
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And we have a great group of Bitcoiners in there. We have almost 1100 Bitcoiners in there, and we're talking Bitcoin
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distributed systems, privacy, open source software, all sorts of FreedomTech,
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every day of the week, not just when the show's on. But when the show's on, it becomes our live audience chat. So definitely come join us there.
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So, Wiz, we were talking about,
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you know, mempool is an open source project.
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Funding.
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How you deal with funding is is mostly grant based and individual contributor based. How do you look at that? Is that a sustainable method? Is that
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You know, I think in the early days of the project when it was just me and Simon, if if,
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we only have a couple guys taking salary
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from the, the funds of the project,
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it's fine. But one but as the project has grown I mean, now we have very large apps like Cash App sending us all of their users, and we have servers in multiple
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continents,
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you know, and and we When you say Cash App sending users is because mempool.space
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is their
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Correct. Is their block explorer. So when, like, you click in details for an address, it opens up mempool.space.
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Yeah. It's it's so cool to,
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to see someone use Cash App in the United States and, click on that block explorer button and and see it open up in mempool space.
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I mean, like I said,
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Square and Spiral and Block, they're they're just our huge supporter,
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but it's
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also the open source project. I mean, they just support open source in general. Right. And when you talk about funding, yeah, they they've also been our our biggest fund backer. But but I think, going back to your question,
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you know, now that we have, like, 8 people in the project and we're self hosting our own servers and network
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own ISP.
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We, you know, we own our own IP blocks and we have
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trans peerings with all these tier one providers all over the world now
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just to
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mitigate the risk of of third party
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surveillance and censorship on our website.
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It's become a huge responsibility
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for the community
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to operate this site.
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I'm actually,
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you know, right after this podcast is done, about to get on the plane and fly to another data center and work on some more servers just to
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to
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improve mempool space.
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So as the funding as the expenses of the project grow up, yeah, we we really need to think about how to, keep it going long term
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when
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if, you know, now that we've now that we've gotten so many donations from the community and so many grants from all the enterprise sponsors,
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You know, how do we
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ethically,
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I guess, monetize the site without ruining it so that we can fund the development of the open source project? And I think a lot of projects in the space
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have the same kind of dilemma. Right?
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For example, Evan with, like, Sue Swallet or Right. Any, like,
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great open source projects in the space, they're all thinking the same thing, like,
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you know, you could just put ads on the site and and ruin it. Right? And and that's what Right. All the ads. Right. Exactly. All all the developers started dispatch.
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So,
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yeah, I think I think one,
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business model which might
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be a good fit for mempool space
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someday would be to build, like, a
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player
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2,
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I guess, mempool market or maybe more accurately market for space in the Bitcoin blockchain.
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I mean, right now, the mempool is totally empty, and you can use 1 sat for byte. Mhmm. And it confirms, like, 2 blocks or something immediately. Right? But as we saw last year, when the mempool gets full,
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all of a sudden, we have 9,000 messages
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every day from
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lost newbies. Help me. My transaction is stuck in a mempool. Can you please confirm it? And I think it would be really cool
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if we had a button on the website when you're tracking your transaction
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where you could just pay some sats over lightning,
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and we could have one of our friends at a mining pool manually prioritize your transaction
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and provide a useful service to the community
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to help. And so out of out of band fee payments. Right. I think that's as opposed to so
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in band is, like, when you when you construct a Bitcoin transaction, maybe you go to mempool.space
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to see or your own mempool instance or in the wallet that shows you, like, what different fee rates you can pay to get into a block,
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but it's not exactly a perfect measurement. So then after you send it, if you wanna bump that fee, if you wanna increase that fee, then you can maybe go to mempool.space
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and pay an additional fee that goes to a minor to to get it into a block. Right? Yeah. And I think the the usual,
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response
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when I talk about when I bounce the idea off people is, like, well, why wouldn't I just use RBF or Right. CPFP even?
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And, yeah, you should absolutely use RBF
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or or CPFP if you have to. And,
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usually,
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most wallets these days are very good about supporting RBF.
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Right. So RBF is replaced by fee. Right. So if you so if you you made a transaction with 10 sats and the mempool spikes up suddenly and now it's buried, you can
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replace that transaction by increasing the fee of the of the transaction Right. 20 sats, 30 sats. And then the major trade off there is
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when you actually send the first transaction, you have to have RBF enabled to begin with.
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Right. Or your wallet has to support it. Right. Your wallet has to basically have it enabled. Or you have to have enough extra sets in the wallet to be able to increase the fee. Like, if you were just sweeping all the funds from the address, and then you have nothing to add. Exactly.
405
00:31:37.679 --> 00:31:41.539
So there are some times when you can't use RBF for various reasons.
406
00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:42.899
And CPFP
407
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:44.659
child pays for parents
408
00:31:45.115 --> 00:31:54.920
is another good way to increase increase the effective rate of a transaction. So this is actually one feature that mempool space has that no other blockage score has is the ability to see the effective
409
00:31:55.300 --> 00:32:04.315
fee rate of a trend. Right. If you use child pay for parent so child pay for parent is, like, if I send a Bitcoin transaction and it has changed, the change goes back to me.
410
00:32:04.695 --> 00:32:07.275
If I then spend that change with a higher fee,
411
00:32:07.815 --> 00:32:10.955
then a miner is incentivized to mine both transactions
412
00:32:11.490 --> 00:32:15.270
at the same time. So that effective fee rate of the first transaction
413
00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:24.125
needs to include that child transaction. Right? In terms of that's what the effective fee shows on the website. Right? Exactly. And so if you have 2 transactions
414
00:32:24.425 --> 00:32:25.325
that are the same
415
00:32:25.705 --> 00:32:27.565
number of bytes, same size,
416
00:32:28.870 --> 00:32:32.170
then the effective fee rate would be the average of those 2 transactions.
417
00:32:33.110 --> 00:32:35.610
So Right. If you've made one with 10 sats,
418
00:32:35.955 --> 00:32:42.375
but now you need to pay 50 sats to get into the net into the next block and you really want it to be confirmed, you could just make you could spend the
419
00:32:42.755 --> 00:32:51.520
change somewhere else with a very, very high fee rate, like 200 sats, and then the average would be closer to a 100. Right. And, specifically, with child's pay for child pays for parent,
420
00:32:53.625 --> 00:32:55.485
which, by the way, I just think is such a funny
421
00:32:55.785 --> 00:33:00.845
Bitcoin term, but because most usually, pay parents pay for their children. But,
422
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:29.085
the if you're sending to yourself, you can always do child pays for parent because you can take whatever that output of that transaction is, and then you can then send it again. Well, it gets complicated. Right? Because if you, again, if you swept all the funds from an address and you don't have any funds left to But you send it to a a new address that you control, and then you just send that transaction again in child space for parent. But but the problem is that if your first transaction gets purged out of the mempool
423
00:33:29.465 --> 00:33:31.325
Right. Right. If you're in a high sustained
424
00:33:31.865 --> 00:33:32.365
high
425
00:33:33.304 --> 00:33:47.255
Yeah. So if, say, you set a stake and you used 1 sat per on your trend and the mempool surges up, and that gets purged and deleted. Right. What's the default mempool size? 300 megs? Is that it? Right. 300 megabytes. And the last so everyone
426
00:33:47.795 --> 00:33:50.535
everyone by default, their Bitcoin node is holding
427
00:33:51.475 --> 00:33:54.455
the way I like to think about the mempool is like it's a big,
428
00:33:55.150 --> 00:33:59.410
waiting line. Like, you're trying to get into a restaurant or something, and it's this big line.
429
00:34:00.270 --> 00:34:04.370
In in in the Bitcoin defaults, that line can be 300 megabytes
430
00:34:06.815 --> 00:34:16.819
big. And then if if someone's paying a the and then the lowest fee transactions start getting dropped out of that line because they're not paying enough. Right? Right. So if you get outbid
431
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:18.339
so badly
432
00:34:18.640 --> 00:34:20.660
that you get bumped out of the line,
433
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:26.695
your transaction will just be in not even in the mempool. It'll just be stuck in your local nodes Right. Mempool.
434
00:34:27.235 --> 00:34:30.935
And your low your local node or wallet will try to rebroadcast it
435
00:34:31.315 --> 00:34:32.215
to the network.
436
00:34:32.890 --> 00:34:35.550
But you have no way of CPFPing
437
00:34:35.930 --> 00:34:39.710
that transaction because the miners don't see the parent. Correct.
438
00:34:40.065 --> 00:34:45.765
And that is a huge problem which, Gloria Zhao has been working very hard to fix in Bitcoin Core.
439
00:34:46.145 --> 00:34:51.170
She's working on this feature called package relay accept, which would which would allow you to broadcast
440
00:34:51.950 --> 00:34:54.050
2 transactions together in a package
441
00:34:54.430 --> 00:34:54.930
where
442
00:34:55.244 --> 00:35:00.065
their effective fee rate is above whatever that limit is. Right. This is a big problem for layer 2,
443
00:35:00.525 --> 00:35:04.605
like, Lightning, for example. Like the trust model. Right? Where you need to be able to
444
00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:12.370
And and you should watch the mempool panel video on Bitcoin TV where Gloria explains this, much better than I am. But
445
00:35:12.830 --> 00:35:13.330
she
446
00:35:14.305 --> 00:35:25.950
very is working very hard to solve this problem, which is essentially a security hole in Lightning. Right? Where Lightning makes a lots of assumptions about the mempool that you're always gonna be able to
447
00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:27.710
settle a transaction,
448
00:35:28.250 --> 00:35:28.750
within
449
00:35:29.130 --> 00:35:30.225
a certain time frame.
450
00:35:31.585 --> 00:35:38.325
It's just not true. And if we're in the system, there's no guarantee that your transaction will be confirmed. And so
451
00:35:38.740 --> 00:35:39.240
CPFP
452
00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:41.480
is one way to
453
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:43.000
increase the effective
454
00:35:43.620 --> 00:35:44.280
fee rate
455
00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:49.855
unless the first transaction has such a low fee rate that it is completely rejected and purged.
456
00:35:50.555 --> 00:35:57.750
So she's, working very hard to fix that. And, hopefully, that'll but but this kinda leads us to the the third way to bump a fee transaction,
457
00:35:58.529 --> 00:35:59.349
which would be
458
00:35:59.730 --> 00:36:01.029
the out of band method.
459
00:36:01.410 --> 00:36:05.109
And a few mining pools have done this in the past where you could
460
00:36:05.955 --> 00:36:09.495
pay them essentially bribe them with a very, very high overpriced,
461
00:36:10.115 --> 00:36:10.615
payment.
462
00:36:10.915 --> 00:36:20.080
Usually via credit cards or sometimes through shitcoins. It it is it has not been implemented well. And it was also, like I mean, I remember it in, like, the 2017
463
00:36:20.540 --> 00:36:31.155
during the 2017 fork wars when fee fees got really high. A lot I mean, it's it seems pretty obvious after the fact that that was part of a b cash attack to try and inflate fees,
464
00:36:32.740 --> 00:36:36.840
But that was pre lightning. Right? So you didn't even have lightning to be able to
465
00:36:37.300 --> 00:36:43.135
accept a Bitcoin out the native Bitcoin out of band payment. So it was either credit cards or shitcoins.
466
00:36:43.755 --> 00:36:54.310
Right. And now there's a number of layer 2 networks we could use like Lightning or Liquid and and a whole number of ways which you could do an out of band payment to, you know, get your layer 1 transaction
467
00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:57.990
unstuck from the mempool and confirmed into a block quickly.
468
00:36:58.290 --> 00:36:59.510
So I think that's what
469
00:37:00.105 --> 00:37:01.085
the long term,
470
00:37:01.545 --> 00:37:05.885
goal of the the project will be is to help the community
471
00:37:06.825 --> 00:37:07.805
get their transactions
472
00:37:08.105 --> 00:37:08.605
confirmed.
473
00:37:09.380 --> 00:37:09.880
And
474
00:37:10.420 --> 00:37:15.240
this is something that should be fixed by Bitcoin Core in the long run,
475
00:37:15.859 --> 00:37:18.965
you know, through the efforts of Gloria and other very, very smart
476
00:37:19.505 --> 00:37:20.565
people working to
477
00:37:20.945 --> 00:37:24.565
make a fair market for everyone where you shouldn't need the service.
478
00:37:25.025 --> 00:37:26.005
But in the meantime,
479
00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:35.605
I guess this is where Mempool Space can come in and and kind of help, you know, just with our friends at different mining pools and and our develop developer resources
480
00:37:36.225 --> 00:37:37.045
to try and,
481
00:37:37.905 --> 00:37:38.565
you know,
482
00:37:39.105 --> 00:37:41.605
help the community provide a useful service
483
00:37:41.905 --> 00:37:43.365
and charge a a fair,
484
00:37:43.890 --> 00:37:47.109
price for it. And And it's definitely more useful if it's,
485
00:37:50.049 --> 00:37:56.305
it's definitely more useful of a service, I imagine, if it's if if it's multiple mining pools instead of just
486
00:37:56.845 --> 00:38:10.155
a single mining pool offering it. Right? Right. And then it's very complicated to do this because it presents a number of or maybe it it kind of highlights a number of problems that already currently exist. For example, I think I remember a few months back,
487
00:38:11.035 --> 00:38:14.255
the owner of of, was it, the fish mining pool,
488
00:38:14.795 --> 00:38:18.895
f two pool? F two pool. Yeah. He It used to be discus fish. Right.
489
00:38:19.200 --> 00:38:36.135
They still use the fish fish emoji in the Coinbase text. He Wang Chung. Wang Chung sent a one Bitcoin payment. So I think it was Luke Dash junior. Yeah. But he just flagged. And it had, like, 9,000 Bitcoin change too on it or something. Exactly. He spent a 9,000 Bitcoin UTXO
490
00:38:36.849 --> 00:38:47.005
and To send 1 Bitcoin. Which is already a massive flex. But just to be just just to be, like, over the top, he also paid zero fee. And then mined it with his own pool. With his own pool. And
491
00:38:47.945 --> 00:38:48.445
it
492
00:38:49.785 --> 00:38:52.205
flex. Right. What a flex. But if if empty
493
00:38:52.505 --> 00:38:53.660
and the blocks are
494
00:38:54.220 --> 00:38:54.720
full,
495
00:38:55.339 --> 00:38:58.240
then that's okay. But the minute the pool is congested,
496
00:38:58.859 --> 00:39:00.059
he would have essentially been
497
00:39:01.555 --> 00:39:04.615
basically, by not paying a fee to his own pool,
498
00:39:04.995 --> 00:39:05.735
he's essentially,
499
00:39:06.275 --> 00:39:12.230
I don't wanna use words thing revenue, but he should have paid Sats to the pool to have that transaction. There's an opportunity
500
00:39:13.170 --> 00:39:13.830
cost because
501
00:39:14.530 --> 00:39:20.465
if if them pools are full, if mempools are full, he could have mined a different transaction where they would have got paid a fee.
502
00:39:20.925 --> 00:39:30.530
Instead, he mined a zero fee. Right. And this is just one example, and it's not an issue if the mempool is empty. But when the mempool is full and
503
00:39:31.165 --> 00:39:34.785
people want to get their transactions manually prioritized to get
504
00:39:35.245 --> 00:39:36.945
confirmed and mined into a block,
505
00:39:37.565 --> 00:39:41.710
then mining pools would now have this problem where, okay. I
506
00:39:42.250 --> 00:39:43.790
prioritize this guy's transaction,
507
00:39:44.490 --> 00:39:51.645
and we took some money for it. They have to be they have to pass that revenue onto the pool, onto the actual miners,
508
00:39:52.105 --> 00:39:56.125
and they have to do this in an auditable and transparent way.
509
00:39:56.809 --> 00:39:58.829
And mempool fixes this because
510
00:39:59.530 --> 00:40:00.030
mempool
511
00:40:00.569 --> 00:40:04.670
it's not exposed on the website yet, but mempool will have the ability to
512
00:40:05.485 --> 00:40:08.865
show a projected mempool block and compare that against
513
00:40:09.245 --> 00:40:10.145
the actual
514
00:40:10.525 --> 00:40:12.145
mined block in the blockchain
515
00:40:12.685 --> 00:40:14.305
and say what transactions
516
00:40:15.309 --> 00:40:17.650
should have been in there or shouldn't have been in there
517
00:40:18.190 --> 00:40:20.049
and what the difference in fees
518
00:40:20.990 --> 00:40:23.010
actually was. And so,
519
00:40:23.375 --> 00:40:26.435
for example, in in the that case of that 9,000
520
00:40:26.815 --> 00:40:28.355
Bitcoin UTXO transaction,
521
00:40:29.055 --> 00:40:33.420
mempoolspace would say, oh, yeah. He should have paid 500 sats fee for that.
522
00:40:36.200 --> 00:40:45.535
It can, you know, make this visible on the website, and then the mining pool or or or we end up doing it would have to, you know, debit this guy's account 500 sats and
523
00:40:46.075 --> 00:40:48.735
credit the account of the pool 500 sats,
524
00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:53.380
and that would make it a more fair system. And it's and it's actually a bigger problem with Stratum v 2,
525
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:56.560
which I'm sure Matt can explain this better than I can, but,
526
00:40:59.536 --> 00:41:00.345
Stratum v 2 allows for all home miners,
527
00:41:00.805 --> 00:41:02.585
or at least one component of it,
528
00:41:03.125 --> 00:41:10.410
one aspect of Stratum v 2. And so right now as it stands, I think that's where you're going with it. Right now, as it stands, the mining pool operator
529
00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:14.569
is constructing the blocks. They're deciding which transactions are in each block.
530
00:41:16.135 --> 00:41:17.115
Even though there's
531
00:41:17.415 --> 00:41:28.099
there's miners located around the world that are maybe using this pool and contributing work to a pool, they don't choose which transactions are in the block. The mining pool operator chooses it.
532
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:31.525
In stratum b 2, part of their proposal
533
00:41:31.825 --> 00:41:32.645
is that,
534
00:41:33.585 --> 00:41:37.925
the miners themselves, all the individual miners themselves can construct the block.
535
00:41:38.640 --> 00:41:40.340
Exactly. And so this
536
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:51.935
doesn't solve the issue of people prioritizing transactions out of band and pocketing the revenue for it. It it just transfers the problem to every home miner can now do this. Right. So
537
00:41:52.315 --> 00:42:07.905
if Matt has a few miners in his garage and he chooses to prioritize my zero fee transaction because you're paying me separately. Right. Cash under the table or however we do it. Sats under the table. Sats under the table, then the pool misses out on that revenue.
538
00:42:08.205 --> 00:42:20.585
And you could say that Matt And that's an unsold problem. I mean, that's part of the reason why that aspect of Stratham v 2 hasn't rolled out yet. Right. But they've rolled out the other aspects of Stratham v 2, which gives you better performance, more secure connection.
539
00:42:22.165 --> 00:42:28.319
Right. And because the mempool's been empty, this wasn't a huge concern. But the minute the mempool gets full and and out of band transaction,
540
00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:29.440
prioritization
541
00:42:29.900 --> 00:42:37.325
becomes a very lucrative thing to do. This would be a huge problem with STRATOMY too. And so I'm and, also, there's some I believe there's some,
542
00:42:39.810 --> 00:42:45.270
at least in my head, there seems like there could be some, like, there's just attack factors there of maybe miners
543
00:42:47.455 --> 00:42:51.315
going into other pools and and and trying to basically,
544
00:42:53.215 --> 00:42:59.410
it's like a denial of service. Yeah. Right? Exactly. By just not including any transact like, the extreme is
545
00:42:59.870 --> 00:43:10.925
mine empty blocks, right, where you don't add any transactions to the block. Yeah. The game theory is quite complex, but I I'm very excited to try and help solve this problem with the mempool open source project.
546
00:43:11.225 --> 00:43:12.285
If we can,
547
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:14.220
using our
548
00:43:14.600 --> 00:43:17.260
dashboard and our projected mempool blocks
549
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:19.020
to calculate
550
00:43:19.560 --> 00:43:20.460
what a miner
551
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:22.540
should have included in the block
552
00:43:22.905 --> 00:43:25.805
and identify rogue transactions that got prioritized,
553
00:43:26.425 --> 00:43:27.725
then the mining pool
554
00:43:28.025 --> 00:43:28.525
operator
555
00:43:28.985 --> 00:43:32.205
is essentially a coordinator for the accounting at this point to say,
556
00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:33.440
Matt prioritized
557
00:43:33.980 --> 00:43:34.720
with transaction,
558
00:43:35.020 --> 00:43:41.839
so we're gonna debit his account by so many sats because we can see that and, you know, verify. You can verify it. Exactly. And everyone
559
00:43:42.305 --> 00:43:46.885
running their own Raspberry Pi at home would also see the same thing on their own self hosted mempool.
560
00:43:47.425 --> 00:43:52.085
So Oh, that's interesting. Right. This this is this is kind of gonna be, like, our attempt
561
00:43:52.529 --> 00:43:54.309
to, contribute to stratumv2
562
00:43:55.250 --> 00:43:59.829
and help fix this accounting issue. And so if a mining pool operator
563
00:44:00.289 --> 00:44:01.430
has this implemented
564
00:44:02.445 --> 00:44:04.785
and they would be able to roll out Stratum v 2
565
00:44:05.325 --> 00:44:09.665
and let home users pick their own transactions and then And they do it in a nonprofitable
566
00:44:10.365 --> 00:44:11.585
maximizing way,
567
00:44:12.240 --> 00:44:16.900
They can penalize them financially. Exactly. And, likewise, they do prioritize transactions
568
00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:27.444
in the honest way and pass and pass that revenue onto the pool somehow, however we end up figuring out how to do this, then it would create a new revenue stream for the entire pool.
569
00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:29.450
And so it would incentivize
570
00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:30.970
pools to,
571
00:44:31.670 --> 00:44:37.050
I guess, fix this problem and implement transaction acceleration out of band and just open up the free market
572
00:44:37.465 --> 00:44:39.165
a little bit more for these stuck transactions.
573
00:44:39.545 --> 00:44:41.005
So, I mean, one of the cool
574
00:44:41.465 --> 00:44:44.765
aspects to me is of of the Bitcoin fee market
575
00:44:45.350 --> 00:44:52.090
is that it's it's this truly free market where people are basically bidding on this scarce resource, which is block space,
576
00:44:52.725 --> 00:44:55.865
to get included in the transactions. And as demand goes up,
577
00:44:56.325 --> 00:45:03.160
at any given time, the fee rates that you need go up. And if you're willing to wait, you could pay a lower fee rate. It's this really beautiful free market,
578
00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:09.400
that's available to all and and free like, easily to view and verify and whatnot.
579
00:45:11.695 --> 00:45:12.435
Are there
580
00:45:13.135 --> 00:45:18.675
there this idea of out of band payments has come up a lot in the past. It's not a new concept.
581
00:45:20.330 --> 00:45:22.430
But now, all of a sudden, you're adding another
582
00:45:23.210 --> 00:45:24.750
more opaque variable
583
00:45:25.130 --> 00:45:25.870
to that
584
00:45:26.330 --> 00:45:27.630
to that free market.
585
00:45:28.725 --> 00:45:30.025
I respect that
586
00:45:31.045 --> 00:45:32.345
it seems like your
587
00:45:33.205 --> 00:45:33.705
plan
588
00:45:34.165 --> 00:45:34.985
for mempools
589
00:45:35.450 --> 00:45:40.349
out of band payments is to try and make it more open. But I'm just curious from, like, a Bitcoiners perspective.
590
00:45:43.265 --> 00:45:45.365
Should we be concerned about
591
00:45:47.585 --> 00:45:49.525
out of band payments in general,
592
00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:52.490
you know, fucking with
593
00:45:52.950 --> 00:45:57.450
maybe incentives or fucking with the free market. Right? Like, is there a
594
00:45:57.905 --> 00:46:07.445
a Well, I think the important thing to remember is that you can already do out of bank payments now Right. By bribing a miner to mine whatever you want. And
595
00:46:07.890 --> 00:46:18.375
we do see this Or your way, Sean, you just call up the engineer and tell him to include the transaction. Exactly. Right. I mean, people already do shenanigans all the time with mining and include random transactions,
596
00:46:19.395 --> 00:46:20.615
nonstandard transactions,
597
00:46:21.155 --> 00:46:25.495
extremely large transactions. I mean, I think there's been some blocks where,
598
00:46:25.850 --> 00:46:28.030
like, an entire 1 megabyte transaction
599
00:46:28.730 --> 00:46:51.940
was the only transaction in the block or something like this. And it's more than just out of band payments. Right? There could be, like, basically out of band partnerships or something where, like, like, if a let's imagine, like, a Cash App becomes one of the major transactors on the network, and they just have a relationship with a single mining pool that just every time they broadcast a transaction just shows no fee and they have, like, a subscription or something. Right? Yeah. I think the market for
600
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:52.900
mining
601
00:46:53.365 --> 00:47:03.580
will develop has a has a lot of room to evolve and develop over time. And it's simply because the mempool's been empty for most of Bitcoin's tree. But once the fee market or blockchain space market
602
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:19.900
someone Me and Wiz got a lot of got a lot of flack and pie in our face because we got FIFO more last year. Well, I wasn't the one who said Bitcoin fees are designed to pump forever. I don't know who said that. Someone's gotta go check the tapes. They wanna know.
603
00:47:20.200 --> 00:47:23.339
But, I mean, it's kind of true if you figure that Satoshi
604
00:47:23.640 --> 00:47:25.935
intended the block subsidy reward to
605
00:47:26.495 --> 00:47:29.555
trend and have down to 0 over the next 100 or so years.
606
00:47:30.015 --> 00:47:30.515
Obviously,
607
00:47:30.975 --> 00:47:34.355
we need this fee market or space market to develop.
608
00:47:35.230 --> 00:47:35.730
And
609
00:47:36.910 --> 00:47:44.735
the way it develops is yet to be seen. Right? I mean, we'll all be dead by the time the by the subsidy gets But there is an argument that, like,
610
00:47:45.855 --> 00:47:47.795
as Bitcoin increases in purchase
611
00:47:50.015 --> 00:47:52.275
as Bitcoin increases in purchasing power,
612
00:47:53.369 --> 00:47:59.950
so does the purchasing power of that base fee, which is you know, like, you can't pay a transaction that's lower than 1 sapper byte.
613
00:48:01.285 --> 00:48:05.785
Well, there's been discussion purchasing power of that 1 sapper byte fee has gone up
614
00:48:06.085 --> 00:48:12.380
as Bitcoin price goes up. Right? There's there's been discussions to reduce the min relay fee
615
00:48:12.680 --> 00:48:15.420
and min fee rate below on SAP for Vite.
616
00:48:16.775 --> 00:48:27.840
Whether that gets adopted or not, I don't know. And and that's another thing that could be done out of band. Right? Because it's only the policy of the peer to peer network Right. That restricts such a low fee transaction from being propagated.
617
00:48:28.380 --> 00:48:35.515
You could just like Wang Chung did. Or even with this this mempool's Exactly. Idea, you can do a 0 fee transaction,
618
00:48:36.455 --> 00:48:37.755
broadcast it to mempool.space,
619
00:48:38.375 --> 00:48:45.130
and include an out of band payment with it. That's less than 1 separate byte presumably. Exactly. So I think this could be a really interesting,
620
00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:50.010
feature of the site to to work on and a and a service for the community
621
00:48:50.785 --> 00:48:56.724
if they if they wish to use it. Of course, you should always use RBF or CPFP when you can. You should always use
622
00:48:57.505 --> 00:48:58.885
a accurate fee estimate.
623
00:48:59.220 --> 00:49:01.880
I feel like there's another point here that should be clear.
624
00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:07.560
You know, so with Bitcoin on chain fees, it's not how much you're sending that dictates the fee.
625
00:49:07.955 --> 00:49:09.575
It's how much data is
626
00:49:10.035 --> 00:49:11.895
the size of the transaction. So
627
00:49:12.195 --> 00:49:12.355
for
628
00:49:12.995 --> 00:49:23.040
and the the biggest contributor to the data size is is how many UTXOs on that input side when you're combine when you're creating the transaction, how many UTXOs you're using to create it.
629
00:49:23.740 --> 00:49:26.565
But there's situations where, for instance,
630
00:49:27.265 --> 00:49:28.725
a 10 Bitcoin transaction
631
00:49:29.265 --> 00:49:39.819
could be paying a less fee than a 1 Bitcoin transaction because the 1 Bitcoin transaction is larger in size. So it's not data size, so it's not how much you're sending. Now with Lightning,
632
00:49:40.200 --> 00:49:52.520
it's a it's a completely different fee method, which is a percentage based fee, which people are probably more used to in the fiat world, which is this idea that you're paying a percentage on the amount you send.
633
00:49:53.400 --> 00:50:01.020
So this is a key difference in the 2 the 2 fee markets, so the lightning fee market and the on chain fee market. I think it should be interesting to see
634
00:50:01.535 --> 00:50:05.955
how they complement each other and play off of each other as as the networks develop.
635
00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:10.890
One thing I definitely wanna touch on here is
636
00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:12.650
you keep saying the mempool.
637
00:50:13.830 --> 00:50:17.849
The mempool doesn't exist. There's no the mempool. There's a lot of mempools
638
00:50:18.355 --> 00:50:20.855
throughout the world that are hosted by different individuals.
639
00:50:21.795 --> 00:50:28.860
Right? It's kinda funny, but one takeaway I have from Miami is that when a lot of Bitcoiners say the mempool, they mean my mempool.
640
00:50:29.720 --> 00:50:35.204
And I don't mean that in, like, an arrogant way. It's just it's just mempool. Stay humble, Wiz. I mean, mempool space is becoming,
641
00:50:35.904 --> 00:50:39.765
I guess, really popular, and and all the best wallets and exchanges use it.
642
00:50:40.224 --> 00:50:43.339
And so when they say their transaction is stuck at the mempool,
643
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.099
they usually look on mempool space to to
644
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:48.940
indicate that. But, yeah, everyone
645
00:50:49.240 --> 00:50:51.339
every node has their own mempool, and
646
00:50:52.395 --> 00:50:56.735
you should not trust my mempool or our mempool. You should verify in your own.
647
00:50:58.395 --> 00:51:01.600
And it's it's still I mean, even if you're using your own mempool, it's
648
00:51:02.720 --> 00:51:02.960
still
649
00:51:04.640 --> 00:51:11.875
but, I mean, when we're talking about mempools, we should really be saying mempools, not mempool, and we should say, a mempool, not the mempool even though it sounds weird.
650
00:51:12.895 --> 00:51:14.915
But even if you're using your own mempool
651
00:51:15.295 --> 00:51:18.755
and your own node, there's still a lot of value to have a,
652
00:51:19.470 --> 00:51:22.290
basically, trusted third party mempool that you can
653
00:51:22.670 --> 00:51:29.090
confirm off of and and double check what what your node is showing and see if there's any That's true. Bullshit happening. Right?
654
00:51:29.695 --> 00:51:39.859
And ideally, a couple. Right? I I mean, I know the Knicks guys also run their own mempool instance. Right? Right. And one of our contributors, MC, also runs his own mempool instance, like mempool.mc.d.
655
00:51:40.640 --> 00:51:51.075
So you can theoretically use your own mempool and then confirm against 3 others or something. Yeah. That's a that's an excellent way. And and we've thought about making some kind of federated model for this. But I think in practice,
656
00:51:52.015 --> 00:51:53.875
most people just want, like, a single,
657
00:51:54.415 --> 00:51:59.250
oracle to to quickly check something. And it's actually a very common request from exchanges.
658
00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:01.490
For example, in Exodus Wallet,
659
00:52:02.030 --> 00:52:05.810
they when they sell someone some Bitcoin Closed source wallet. Don't use it. Continue.
660
00:52:06.350 --> 00:52:06.850
Well,
661
00:52:07.305 --> 00:52:14.925
if, say, for example, you're connecting your Trezor to your Exodus wallet, so you're verifying with your own hardware wallet that funds were received.
662
00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:21.410
They actually link to mempool space for that. And the reason they don't want to run their own mempool instance
663
00:52:21.789 --> 00:52:24.609
and do want to link for us is because they are the counterparty
664
00:52:25.095 --> 00:52:27.115
to the transaction. Right. So
665
00:52:27.575 --> 00:52:30.635
mempool space acts as like a neutral third party to
666
00:52:31.174 --> 00:52:31.994
it's like an
667
00:52:32.380 --> 00:52:35.040
it's an arbitration kind of or an arbitrator.
668
00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:41.100
Right? You're like a Well, that's something that this has. Venmo is more of an oracle maybe. Right. So
669
00:52:41.865 --> 00:52:43.885
but it doesn't have to be if you run your own.
670
00:52:45.065 --> 00:52:46.125
Cool. Cool. Cool.
671
00:52:48.185 --> 00:52:52.310
So, I mean, I, yeah, I I look forward to seeing what you guys have in store in terms
672
00:52:53.490 --> 00:52:56.630
of creating a more sustainable open source project. I think,
673
00:52:57.385 --> 00:53:00.045
obviously, that's a major topic of discussion,
674
00:53:01.945 --> 00:53:02.765
on dispatch.
675
00:53:03.305 --> 00:53:05.964
I I I because open source software
676
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:14.060
is the future we wanna see is is a world built on top of open source software and proliferation of open source software
677
00:53:14.475 --> 00:53:17.455
because this code is not controlled by a single company or an individual.
678
00:53:19.435 --> 00:53:20.975
It will outlive all of us.
679
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:22.420
But,
680
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:23.380
historically,
681
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:34.295
funding for open source projects has been a very difficult task, and it is pretty cool that Bitcoin seems to enable certain funding models that didn't exist before because all of a sudden,
682
00:53:34.835 --> 00:53:36.375
these open source operators
683
00:53:36.755 --> 00:53:40.950
are able to accept a global money without a third party,
684
00:53:42.370 --> 00:53:46.870
in a trust minimized way. So because that addition of Bitcoin, all of a sudden,
685
00:53:47.565 --> 00:53:48.305
there's all
686
00:53:48.605 --> 00:53:55.425
these cool different models that are prop popping up where you can still fork the code. You can use the code however you want. You can run it yourself,
687
00:53:56.380 --> 00:54:00.800
but the actual operators and maintainers of the code have some kind of value add service,
688
00:54:02.140 --> 00:54:03.520
that generates Sats.
689
00:54:04.635 --> 00:54:08.734
Is pretty novel and pretty new, and it's really cool watching it all develop. You know?
690
00:54:09.355 --> 00:54:16.340
Yeah. The real power of Bitcoin and open source software together is what makes the project so powerful.
691
00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:18.020
And every
692
00:54:19.105 --> 00:54:26.485
open source project contributes to the ecosystem in its own unique way. Right? Like, you'll have Evan making his Lightning Wallet
693
00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:32.029
or mempool or bisk or all of these projects, and they all fill their own,
694
00:54:32.650 --> 00:54:38.575
use case. But all of them together is is like the cypherpunk arsenal. They all build on top of Bitcoin. And
695
00:54:38.875 --> 00:54:41.375
there's so many companies that will do closed source.
696
00:54:42.315 --> 00:55:00.825
For example, just the mining dashboard. You know, all of the mining dashboards we looked at were all closed source. So by making an open source one, I kind of feel that now nobody needs to reinvent the wheel 10 times. Right. They can just fork yours. Sure. And that's the beauty of open source. Right? And the world runs on top of open source software like this.
697
00:55:01.125 --> 00:55:02.984
So, I mean, my last dispatch,
698
00:55:03.990 --> 00:55:10.570
the topic of I mean, I apologize to the freaks of the audio quality. It was poor. It was, in person in a warehouse in Miami,
699
00:55:12.755 --> 00:55:14.855
and it just had really bad acoustics
700
00:55:15.235 --> 00:55:16.615
and whatnot. But,
701
00:55:17.235 --> 00:55:22.535
it was a great conversation, especially for those who joined us in person. We had a 100 ride or dive freaks there.
702
00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:28.410
They each paid sats to come, which included drinks, but also helped support
703
00:55:28.789 --> 00:55:32.135
the show and keep it ad free. Talking about one of my favorite topics,
704
00:55:34.215 --> 00:55:34.295
which is open source licenses.
705
00:55:35.815 --> 00:55:39.515
And we had a couple guys on there that are really big on completely
706
00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:43.210
unrestricted open source licenses, like MIT,
707
00:55:44.790 --> 00:55:45.690
or the unlicensed.
708
00:55:46.310 --> 00:55:49.770
I mean, we had Paul on there who's big on that, Evan Kloudis.
709
00:55:50.215 --> 00:55:52.135
I mean, you mentioned Evan was,
710
00:55:53.575 --> 00:55:59.275
in in multiple panels in the open source stage. Like, all the all the rider dies a little bit dispatched gas order.
711
00:56:00.589 --> 00:56:03.170
And we had Tony who also did 2 panels,
712
00:56:04.190 --> 00:56:09.395
and they're all pro MIT guys, and then we had MBK who likes a really nice restricted license.
713
00:56:10.415 --> 00:56:13.955
And then so you guys sit in the middle. You have a GPL license.
714
00:56:14.655 --> 00:56:18.710
Well, yeah, that's so you mentioned many projects. That's an interesting comparison. I think
715
00:56:19.490 --> 00:56:20.950
it really depends on
716
00:56:21.330 --> 00:56:32.225
what license is the best. I mean, this is this is a whole, like, huge discussion in itself. I think you've had entire episodes, like, 3 hours. Literally, the last one was an entire episode Right. To it. Right. So
717
00:56:32.690 --> 00:56:37.750
favorite topic. Yeah. And, you know, for NVK, he's making hardware. Right? So maybe
718
00:56:38.130 --> 00:56:42.230
the MIT license is not a good fit for his business model, whereas for
719
00:56:43.234 --> 00:56:53.790
some projects like, obviously, Bitcoin Core needs to be MIT licensed because Completely unrestricted. Anyone can do whatever they want with it. Exactly. Because that's a very low level, protocol level building block. Foundational.
720
00:56:54.250 --> 00:56:57.630
Everyone needs Bitcoin Core to use anything with Bitcoin.
721
00:56:58.250 --> 00:57:03.445
And also projects like, Rust Lightning or or LDK by the Foundational.
722
00:57:03.825 --> 00:57:04.325
Right.
723
00:57:05.105 --> 00:57:07.445
Whereas projects like Bisc and Mempool
724
00:57:07.745 --> 00:57:09.525
use a license called the AGPL
725
00:57:10.080 --> 00:57:13.700
or the or, in Mempool's case, you can choose AGPL or GPL.
726
00:57:14.080 --> 00:57:16.000
But the idea is,
727
00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:18.580
I guess, created by Stallman in the eighties.
728
00:57:19.505 --> 00:57:22.724
Decades ago. This guy figured it out that
729
00:57:23.105 --> 00:57:25.444
in order for software to remain free,
730
00:57:26.144 --> 00:57:27.125
it has to
731
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:30.460
accomplish what he coined as the 4 freedoms. And you can go
732
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:40.795
read his his long form essays, and he he's he's written length about it. So I won't try and, do it justice now. But, essentially, the GNU licenses that Stallman pioneered
733
00:57:42.535 --> 00:57:50.210
are much more complex than the MIT license or the BSD license or the unlicensed, which MIT licenses you can just do whatever the hell you want.
734
00:57:50.510 --> 00:57:53.170
It's out there. But the GPL is quite
735
00:57:53.710 --> 00:57:57.615
strict, relatively speaking, saying that if you fork the project,
736
00:57:58.075 --> 00:58:01.295
your changes need to also be free software.
737
00:58:01.835 --> 00:58:03.375
They also need to stay
738
00:58:03.675 --> 00:58:05.055
under the same license.
739
00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:06.860
And so, for example,
740
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:13.340
if you fork Bitcoin Core and you make changes to it or integrate it into your other code, that's
741
00:58:13.724 --> 00:58:15.345
your business and nobody
742
00:58:15.805 --> 00:58:18.704
can say anything about it. But if you fork the mempool project
743
00:58:19.484 --> 00:58:21.265
and you add some feature,
744
00:58:21.849 --> 00:58:24.829
then the Mempool open source project can take those
745
00:58:25.450 --> 00:58:31.095
feature additions that you made and merge it upstream back into the Mempel project. And so
746
00:58:31.635 --> 00:58:34.695
that keeps the free software free. The resulting
747
00:58:35.155 --> 00:58:45.500
whatever resulting modifications happen or whatever is used with that code needs to remain the same license, needs to remain open. Right. And the GPL and the AGPL, which is even more,
748
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:47.420
strictly enforcing this
749
00:58:47.855 --> 00:58:49.075
freedom, is
750
00:58:49.855 --> 00:58:50.355
somewhat
751
00:58:50.655 --> 00:58:51.155
controversial
752
00:58:51.615 --> 00:58:52.914
with large enterprises
753
00:58:53.214 --> 00:58:53.954
like Google.
754
00:58:54.414 --> 00:58:58.820
And I think Square also bans use of the AGPL because the lawyers are,
755
00:58:59.120 --> 00:59:00.180
for whatever reason,
756
00:59:00.560 --> 00:59:14.145
paranoid about using this AGPL code. Well, there there's an argument that it's and this is actually the argument I the one of the reasons I like it is it's almost like weaponized code. It's it's a it's a open source poison pill. So, like, if you use that code,
757
00:59:15.390 --> 00:59:22.450
unless you're just completely breaking the law, and this was an argument that was I thought it was really interesting in the last discussion, which is,
758
00:59:22.915 --> 00:59:34.910
ultimately, all of these licenses require a state to to basically enforce them. But unless you're willing to just completely break the law and just keep it closed and just not tell anyone and hope you don't get caught,
759
00:59:36.329 --> 00:59:37.790
using GPL code,
760
00:59:38.235 --> 00:59:39.455
a GPL code,
761
00:59:40.795 --> 00:59:45.535
is is essentially this poison pill where where you need to make everything open with it.
762
00:59:46.230 --> 00:59:50.809
That's a hot topic these days. But so you said Square doesn't like it, but they gave you a grant.
763
00:59:51.109 --> 00:59:52.410
Oh, yeah. I mean,
764
00:59:52.789 --> 00:59:54.365
I I mean, we have a dual license.
765
00:59:56.445 --> 01:00:13.020
So you can so even though Square doesn't like AGPL, we also make it available under GPL if you don't like AGPL. It's just that we would prefer AGPL. But they don't really like GPL either. Right? No. I think the lawyers are only paranoid about AGPL. So what's the difference between AGPL and GPL? It's one paragraph in the license, and it basically says if you
766
01:00:13.605 --> 01:00:14.105
make
767
01:00:14.724 --> 01:00:18.505
the service if you make the software if you use a software to run like a website
768
01:00:19.045 --> 01:00:21.385
and that website is available on the Internet,
769
01:00:22.340 --> 01:00:25.000
then you also need to make
770
01:00:25.300 --> 01:00:27.000
the whole stack of that
771
01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:28.040
website
772
01:00:28.580 --> 01:00:32.405
available as open source on this license. And so that's a very,
773
01:00:33.845 --> 01:00:34.345
oversimplified
774
01:00:34.885 --> 01:00:42.599
explanation, but they're worried that so then it's really a poison pill where, like, everything needs to be open. Right. And with GPL, it's
775
01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:43.480
less
776
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:46.819
strict. So, for example, with GPL, you could run
777
01:00:47.855 --> 01:00:57.155
I mean, Linux is GPL version 2. Right? So you can run Linux on the TV here right next to the table, but whatever other software you run on top of Linux
778
01:00:57.750 --> 01:01:03.770
is a separate piece of software. Right. So just that kernel needs to be Exactly. Open, not the
779
01:01:04.150 --> 01:01:06.070
not the dependencies. Exactly. And
780
01:01:06.945 --> 01:01:07.765
yeah, the opposite.
781
01:01:08.145 --> 01:01:10.725
Right. So so you can have lawyers argue what
782
01:01:11.105 --> 01:01:11.605
constitutes
783
01:01:11.985 --> 01:01:13.905
the same program and and there's been,
784
01:01:15.100 --> 01:01:16.880
a lot of debate about this. But
785
01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:17.920
AGPL
786
01:01:18.300 --> 01:01:19.280
is much more
787
01:01:19.900 --> 01:01:24.434
poisonous. It's a unique terminology, right, in the sense that it if you used
788
01:01:25.055 --> 01:01:31.234
any other web server software in this, then you would have to make that open source as well. And so mempool
789
01:01:31.930 --> 01:01:33.230
is a application,
790
01:01:33.609 --> 01:01:35.150
not like a protocol layer.
791
01:01:35.530 --> 01:01:41.745
It's a web application that has its own community and and integrations and everything. And because it's a standalone app,
792
01:01:42.525 --> 01:01:48.385
also just like this, we felt the AGPL is the best license for the project, essentially. And if you look at other,
793
01:01:49.240 --> 01:01:51.260
I guess, community projects like PureTube
794
01:01:51.640 --> 01:01:52.380
or Mastodon
795
01:01:53.240 --> 01:01:56.700
or BISC, which has a huge community around it, and they're all standalone
796
01:01:57.105 --> 01:02:00.724
applications, web applications. They all use AGPL. They all came to the same conclusion.
797
01:02:02.065 --> 01:02:02.565
So
798
01:02:03.184 --> 01:02:06.404
Square wouldn't be able to run a Mastodon or a peer tube,
799
01:02:07.130 --> 01:02:09.710
for example, under their Right. Policy.
800
01:02:10.970 --> 01:02:11.710
Got it.
801
01:02:13.369 --> 01:02:14.670
And then just to
802
01:02:15.455 --> 01:02:18.675
just to think about this in practical terms, so, like, do you know what
803
01:02:19.135 --> 01:02:22.435
what is the open source license for UNIX? Is it MIT?
804
01:02:23.480 --> 01:02:39.690
Well, UNIX is like a family of operating systems now. Right? I mean, the original UNIX is probably from, like, the sixties. Right. I think there's, like, AT and T Bell Labs. So now nobody runs, like, the actual Unix operating system. They use, like, derivatives of it. Like, for example, FreeBSD is BSD license. Right.
805
01:02:40.890 --> 01:02:42.510
Yeah. I mean, Linux is GPL
806
01:02:42.810 --> 01:02:43.630
version 2.
807
01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:44.750
Every
808
01:02:45.609 --> 01:02:50.545
OS is so old that they set their license Right. Right. Decades ago. That makes sense.
809
01:02:52.605 --> 01:03:00.369
But, basically, like, if you if we're if you're in a situation where you have, like, a completely free and open license, like a MIT license with no restrictions,
810
01:03:00.830 --> 01:03:01.890
then in practice,
811
01:03:02.270 --> 01:03:08.295
what could happen is, like, a big tech company can basically just take it, keep it in a closed source stack, make some modifications,
812
01:03:08.755 --> 01:03:10.775
and not share with the rest of the world.
813
01:03:11.155 --> 01:03:13.180
That's the trade off. Right. But,
814
01:03:13.660 --> 01:03:14.700
on the other hand,
815
01:03:15.180 --> 01:03:17.599
people can build on it in a more free way.
816
01:03:17.900 --> 01:03:19.280
That but that's that's
817
01:03:19.819 --> 01:03:32.000
the back and forth trade off. Right? Yeah. I mean, we could talk about this for hours. There's so many trade offs. There's so many, you know, attack vectors. One of my favorite topics, because it's a very nerd hot hot button issue. Like, people have very strong opinions on it.
818
01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:35.440
It's like arguing about politics, but a lot more fun.
819
01:03:35.900 --> 01:03:39.984
Yeah. If you if you run into Rutsal in a in a bar in Germany,
820
01:03:41.244 --> 01:03:48.224
you you know, you'd be talking for hours with the guy about all you have to do is just, like, cough in your hand and say licenses, and he'll just go.
821
01:03:49.790 --> 01:03:51.330
Yeah. Rutsal is,
822
01:03:52.190 --> 01:04:05.710
maintainer of RaspiBlitz projects. And shout out to him, by the way. Him and Ben Arc, really, they they helped out a lot in terms of the workshop experience of the open source stage, and I really appreciate it. Yeah. They're they're great too. The whole Fullmo team. Yeah. They had these,
823
01:04:06.190 --> 01:04:13.650
really cool devices. And FOMO himself. FOMO himself. Yeah. They they, it's, like, for, like, $5 or something, they made this device
824
01:04:13.985 --> 01:04:18.245
that you can build in just a few minutes with with, I guess, easy to obtain parts
825
01:04:19.025 --> 01:04:20.545
that can essentially receive
826
01:04:21.750 --> 01:04:35.665
was it on chain? It's offline lightning payments. Yes. Like, offline lightning payments. So the device doesn't connect to the Internet at all, but just using math and cryptography. Well, it uses so so the phone that pays is connected to the Internet. Right? So your phone's connected to cell signal,
827
01:04:36.765 --> 01:04:38.545
and then you pay an ln URL.
828
01:04:39.299 --> 01:04:42.520
And then once you pay the ln URL, it shows a PIN.
829
01:04:43.140 --> 01:04:45.880
And if that PIN is the same that the merchant sees,
830
01:04:47.495 --> 01:04:55.195
then you get whatever goods you have. It confirms the payment without the merchant needing to be online. Now people say, okay. Well, why would I need a situation
831
01:04:56.550 --> 01:05:00.730
where the cell phone obviously already has Internet, but the terminal doesn't. Well,
832
01:05:01.510 --> 01:05:04.090
Benarck had a rudimentary vending machine,
833
01:05:05.255 --> 01:05:09.515
and on with the vending machine, it actually has a PIN pad, so you don't need a merchant there.
834
01:05:10.055 --> 01:05:15.880
And after you pay it, you get PIN, you put the PIN in, and then your goods come out of the vending machine. And that makes deployment
835
01:05:16.500 --> 01:05:20.359
way, way easier because all of a sudden, all you need is power for the vending machine.
836
01:05:20.715 --> 01:05:22.815
The vending machine doesn't need Internet access.
837
01:05:23.755 --> 01:05:28.175
Only the payer needs Internet access, so you don't have to pay a subscription for the Internet or whatnot.
838
01:05:28.810 --> 01:05:33.790
Yeah. And if you've ever been to El Salvador, the mom and pop shops all over accepting
839
01:05:34.090 --> 01:05:34.990
Bitcoin lightning,
840
01:05:35.450 --> 01:05:37.310
they don't even have a smartphone.
841
01:05:37.674 --> 01:05:47.055
They just have a piece of paper with a QR code on it. An l n URL? No. Not even an l n URL. They were using a Bitcoin Beach Wallet or whatever? Right. Which is just their username, essentially. Correct. And
842
01:05:47.430 --> 01:05:52.250
the way they would know if you sent them funds or not is they would look at your phone, which is obviously
843
01:05:52.630 --> 01:05:56.330
not a secure way to Right. It's a trust trade off. They can be lying to you.
844
01:05:56.725 --> 01:05:57.545
Right. So
845
01:05:58.565 --> 01:06:06.770
this device would Massive improvement. Yeah. In El Salvador. And you wouldn't have to use the government's, like, Chivo Wallet. You wouldn't need a smartphone. You would just know it's very, very inexpensive.
846
01:06:07.070 --> 01:06:13.950
And I guess, like, another major use case of it is something like the conference where, like, everyone has Internet issues at at big events plus people,
847
01:06:15.085 --> 01:06:18.785
and just to not have all these different lightning payments. I mean,
848
01:06:19.165 --> 01:06:26.600
one of the cool parts about the conference was all light all anything at the conference, including beer and food and whatnot, could be bought with lightning.
849
01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:33.095
But the first day, they were having Wi Fi issues. So lightning payments were failing because
850
01:06:33.395 --> 01:06:38.135
of of just straight up Wi Fi issues, and that got sorted in the next 2 days after that. But,
851
01:06:39.049 --> 01:06:41.390
if you had offline ln POS,
852
01:06:41.930 --> 01:06:47.390
then you wouldn't have to deal with that issue. Now the major trade off right now is not all wallet supports spending to lnurl.
853
01:06:49.595 --> 01:06:50.735
But that's a whole another
854
01:06:52.635 --> 01:06:54.655
whole another rabbit hole. I mean, I remember,
855
01:06:55.195 --> 01:06:56.895
we had mallers in town,
856
01:06:57.810 --> 01:06:58.790
and I excitingly
857
01:06:59.330 --> 01:07:06.630
told them. I was like, we got these POS systems. You can buy beer at this brewer in POS, and he's like, man, are you trolling me? I was like, why?
858
01:07:06.975 --> 01:07:08.575
And he's like, because that one's
859
01:07:10.495 --> 01:07:13.875
at me for not supporting Ellen Ural. He can't pay these terminals.
860
01:07:14.200 --> 01:07:16.620
Was like, nope. Not intentional. Did not realize.
861
01:07:18.200 --> 01:07:18.700
Yeah.
862
01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:22.060
Fuck. Yeah. Awesome.
863
01:07:22.365 --> 01:07:25.185
I had one more question for you. There's a question in the chat,
864
01:07:26.045 --> 01:07:26.865
from Highside
865
01:07:27.645 --> 01:07:35.960
for for you is, how much time do we have before a fee market is necessary to keep up network security? I would guess we have around 10 to 15 years left.
866
01:07:36.405 --> 01:07:45.145
Yeah. That's a good question, and I think it's not going to be like a black or white thing where it's just all of a sudden we have a fee market. Because as we saw last year,
867
01:07:45.579 --> 01:07:47.839
when the market was pumping hard and everyone's
868
01:07:48.619 --> 01:07:50.160
moving money around to
869
01:07:50.619 --> 01:07:59.795
trade on exchanges or bucket shops or whatever they're doing, the fees surged up, and they stayed congested for I think it was, like, six and a half months last year.
870
01:08:00.575 --> 01:08:01.075
So
871
01:08:01.970 --> 01:08:07.830
after the market calmed down a bit, the mempool emptied out, and it's been empty ever since. So
872
01:08:08.690 --> 01:08:11.795
when are we going to see a fee market? I it it won't
873
01:08:12.494 --> 01:08:13.075
be just
874
01:08:13.855 --> 01:08:17.235
here today, gone tomorrow kind of thing. It's it's going something that will continuously
875
01:08:18.440 --> 01:08:19.179
be more
876
01:08:19.559 --> 01:08:20.059
congested
877
01:08:20.360 --> 01:08:30.125
over the next 10 to 15 years until some point where it's mostly full all the time, and then clearing out every day or clearing out every week or clearing out every month will become
878
01:08:30.505 --> 01:08:39.550
a more and more rare occurrence. Right? Right. I mean, we've seen that in periods of high fees where it's like on Sundays, it clears because people don't transact as much.
879
01:08:40.250 --> 01:08:46.110
I think the conference last year, like, everyone went down to Miami and cleared because people stopped transacting.
880
01:08:47.695 --> 01:08:48.995
Yeah. Like, Bisk traders
881
01:08:49.455 --> 01:08:52.355
would always trade on Sunday for a long time
882
01:08:53.135 --> 01:08:59.050
because that had the lowest fees, So just in the interest of saving money. And, I mean, Lightning definitely adds another element to it.
883
01:09:00.010 --> 01:09:04.030
I mean, the perfect example is at the conference. Right? All the payments were Lightning enabled.
884
01:09:05.034 --> 01:09:08.974
So those transactions aren't hitting the chain. They're essentially batched transactions,
885
01:09:10.394 --> 01:09:13.614
if you wanna look at it from a Bitcoin macro lens.
886
01:09:15.340 --> 01:09:19.440
And in times of high fees, people might be more likely to switch to a lightning or
887
01:09:20.620 --> 01:09:31.225
maybe even a liquid. But Sure. If you wanna open lightning channel, Sunday's a great day to do it, Sunday night, or when fees are low, unless you want PTLCs, and then we gotta close all our lightning channels to migrate, but that's a whole another.
888
01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:41.780
I think there's another question. Yeah. If the parent I think we answered this. If the parent has been dropped because the fee is below the mempool limit this is from orange surf.
889
01:09:42.195 --> 01:09:51.140
If the parent has been dropped because the fee is below the mempool limit, could the parent not broadcast a new transaction spending the same UTXO with a higher fee without r RBF?
890
01:09:51.620 --> 01:09:53.560
We did not answer that. You would have to
891
01:09:53.860 --> 01:09:56.200
double spend your own first transaction.
892
01:09:57.300 --> 01:09:58.920
And, yes, I've done that before.
893
01:09:59.780 --> 01:10:03.054
And it and it it's tricky, but it can work. But
894
01:10:03.435 --> 01:10:07.855
you can't you can't just tell, like, your your mom to
895
01:10:08.250 --> 01:10:13.790
double spend a transaction out of a wallet. It's Well, also some wallets just don't make it. Like, I guess
896
01:10:14.490 --> 01:10:16.990
and one of the things I look forward to is,
897
01:10:17.765 --> 01:10:23.705
if I look forward to I mean, I still think the jury's out if we're gonna have a sustained high fee market.
898
01:10:33.505 --> 01:10:41.045
And I would just go back to Wizz's previous answer about how long do we need to see fees increase. Because if if purchasing power keeps going up,
899
01:10:42.590 --> 01:10:47.010
and purchasing power keeps increasing, then even though the subsidy is having,
900
01:10:47.390 --> 01:10:47.890
right,
901
01:10:48.270 --> 01:10:50.050
with on a 4 year having cycle,
902
01:10:50.670 --> 01:10:51.490
each subsidy
903
01:10:53.045 --> 01:11:06.020
and purchasing power terms is higher than the previous one. Yeah. Significantly higher to the point where, you know, we have 2,000,000 Bitcoin left to mine. At time of issuance, those 2,000,000 Bitcoin being paid off as a subsidy to miners will
904
01:11:06.880 --> 01:11:08.820
almost most definitely be
905
01:11:09.515 --> 01:11:11.535
higher than the previous 19,000,000.
906
01:11:11.915 --> 01:11:17.775
Right. So quick example, when the blocker when the block subsidiary war was 50 Bitcoin, Bitcoin was worth about $100.
907
01:11:18.350 --> 01:11:22.610
So if you solve the block Right. It would make, what, 5 grand USD? Right. But now
908
01:11:23.230 --> 01:11:26.370
even though the block reward is halved multiple times to only 6.25,
909
01:11:27.485 --> 01:11:29.665
at the current price, that's about a quarter $1,000,000.
910
01:11:30.125 --> 01:11:36.020
Right. So even though the amount of Bitcoin is much, much less purchasing power of the reward is significantly
911
01:11:36.320 --> 01:11:44.020
higher. Right. So I think that puts it off. I mean, the other thing is we do have the difficulty adjustment, and there's always a question of how much security is enough security.
912
01:11:44.645 --> 01:11:46.265
So, you know, in situations,
913
01:11:47.205 --> 01:11:56.760
where miners are do not think it's profitable for them to mine, they will pull off their miners, and then the remaining miners will be more profitable. And at the same time, people will be raising their fees
914
01:11:57.220 --> 01:12:00.680
to be included in blocks. So there is a dynamic there
915
01:12:02.445 --> 01:12:07.505
that should make it so it's never unprofitable to mine. It's just who is it profitable for
916
01:12:08.050 --> 01:12:14.790
rather than just across the board being unprofitable to mine by design, by this by this mix of the difficulty adjustment and,
917
01:12:15.465 --> 01:12:17.325
the dynamic fee market. Yeah.
918
01:12:19.705 --> 01:12:20.205
I,
919
01:12:21.865 --> 01:12:23.085
I lost track.
920
01:12:23.650 --> 01:12:26.770
So there was another question, but that previous question
921
01:12:27.170 --> 01:12:27.670
alright.
922
01:12:28.210 --> 01:12:35.415
The point I was trying to make earlier was we haven't seen a high sustained fee market. If we do see a high sustained fee market,
923
01:12:36.915 --> 01:12:46.250
there's going to be a lot of UX and protocol things that change because developers will be focused on that pain point. One of the things we see with Bitcoin
924
01:12:46.630 --> 01:12:48.170
is Bitcoin is robust
925
01:12:48.790 --> 01:12:51.690
because it's, like, almost this open bug bounty program,
926
01:12:52.105 --> 01:13:00.205
but that only happens when the system gets stressed and you see the pain points. And one of the things I talk about a lot with El Salvador is, yes, it's a
927
01:13:00.610 --> 01:13:03.430
it's a country of 6,000,000 people, but
928
01:13:03.890 --> 01:13:11.304
bringing low income 6,000,000 people all onto a Bitcoin standard the same time where they're transacting a lot, all of a sudden exposed a lot of pain points
929
01:13:11.765 --> 01:13:35.230
in day to day transactions where people weren't making that many day to day transactions before. So while developers and protocol developers did not see those pain points, they see the pain points, then they attempt to mitigate the pain points. And it's gonna be the same for sustained high fee market if we see one where there's gonna be all these pain points that emerge that we never really noticed before because we just weren't in that stressed environment. And when that happens,
930
01:13:35.770 --> 01:13:50.675
you might see wallets offer the ability for you to easily double spend a transaction that gets dropped from mempools, for example. Yeah. Exactly. There's been this common misconception that you can always broadcast the transaction for 1 SAP per vByte. Right. Shout out to our friend, Ketan, who's
931
01:13:51.020 --> 01:14:09.255
always tweeting about this. Well, he won that round. Well, but but during that six and a half month stretch last year, I think we trolled him a lot, and then all of a sudden, 1 sapper bite got into the next block, and then now he's been trolling us since. But during that high fee sustained time, he had to transact Bitcoin, and
932
01:14:10.650 --> 01:14:18.670
he, at one point, tweeted he's like, yeah. I guess you have to use 4 or 5 Sats per click or something to get you know? So that was the the point was that
933
01:14:19.175 --> 01:14:22.235
you to to go to your point about the wallets UI changing,
934
01:14:22.855 --> 01:14:27.515
a lot of people made these assumptions, and they coded wallets or exchanges. Like, for example,
935
01:14:27.830 --> 01:14:28.330
Unchained
936
01:14:29.030 --> 01:14:39.075
Capital, when they were doing their transactions, I guess, were using too low of a fee and the the transactions their customers got stuck in the mempool. But these guys are awesome. They called us up and they said, hey. We wanna
937
01:14:39.695 --> 01:14:42.755
sponsor you guys. We just want some help with our, you know, fee estimation.
938
01:14:43.110 --> 01:14:47.369
And so now they're using the mempool space API for their fee estimation, and they always get
939
01:14:47.909 --> 01:14:53.425
in you know, included in the next block. Same with Exodus Wallet. Right? They're using our fee estimation for very, very high
940
01:14:53.885 --> 01:14:57.505
priority transactions, and it works well. Of course, now the mempool's empty.
941
01:14:58.470 --> 01:15:07.530
Mempools are empty. My mempools. There's no such thing as them. Yeah. When I say the mempool, I mean my mempool. Okay. So we're Not a broadband. Let let that be let that be clear,
942
01:15:08.614 --> 01:15:10.555
going forward. Whenever he says the mempool,
943
01:15:12.375 --> 01:15:13.735
mister Wiz over here is,
944
01:15:14.375 --> 01:15:15.755
talking about his mempool.
945
01:15:17.780 --> 01:15:22.120
So I we have another question from Arne Serf. This is one of the earlier questions that I noted,
946
01:15:23.060 --> 01:15:27.595
which I thought was really good. Why would an out of band payment be lower than just paying the miners
947
01:15:28.135 --> 01:15:29.915
in band with the normal fee?
948
01:15:31.735 --> 01:15:32.715
Well, like I said,
949
01:15:33.335 --> 01:15:33.995
if you
950
01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:40.140
you don't know when the next block is gonna get mined. Right? So Right. If you make a transaction now,
951
01:15:40.840 --> 01:15:41.739
even if you're
952
01:15:42.255 --> 01:15:47.954
using the high priority fee on mempool space, there just might not be any blocks mined for the next 2 hours. It happens.
953
01:15:48.255 --> 01:15:55.770
You know? It's just might variant, variance in mining. And so during that 2 hour period, your The target is 10 minutes, but it can be
954
01:15:56.469 --> 01:16:00.815
however long. We've seen long periods with no blocks. Exactly. And and so your transaction
955
01:16:01.195 --> 01:16:04.495
in that 2 hour time period could get buried deep in the mempool,
956
01:16:05.195 --> 01:16:08.190
and new transactions are surging in so that
957
01:16:08.570 --> 01:16:12.110
your transaction gets more and more and more buried and then eventually purged
958
01:16:12.650 --> 01:16:14.750
in the worst case scenario. So,
959
01:16:15.455 --> 01:16:24.755
sure, if you if you if you get a block bind in 10 minutes later and use the high fee and you didn't get bumped out of that next block, then, yes, you will be confirmed. But quite often,
960
01:16:25.490 --> 01:16:26.230
if you're
961
01:16:27.010 --> 01:16:28.150
trying to estimate
962
01:16:28.850 --> 01:16:29.990
it, what would the
963
01:16:31.090 --> 01:16:46.170
best fee the optimal fee be, It's it's a moving target, and it's hard to hit, and you can't always hit it just Especially when, like, demand is high. Like, if if I've I've been in situations where I, like, I paid on the lower end of a fee, and it just keeps going on me.
964
01:16:46.470 --> 01:17:02.470
Right? And it almost lets you do a more calculated transaction. Right? Because it's you pay the lower fee. I mean, the out of band payment allows you to. You can pay a lower fee. So, like, what happens is you end up in practice, what happens is if you really wanted to confirm, you end up overpaying just to guarantee that you get into a block.
965
01:17:02.850 --> 01:17:06.310
With this out of band payment, you pay a lower fee, and then you just
966
01:17:06.905 --> 01:17:09.645
instantly pay whatever the exact market price is
967
01:17:10.184 --> 01:17:10.625
for
968
01:17:11.065 --> 01:17:16.230
Right. To get into a block. Right? So you In that example. Pay the low you you basically pay the lowest you could practically pay to get
969
01:17:24.255 --> 01:17:26.915
could become like this, oracle for
970
01:17:27.295 --> 01:17:31.635
what the price was to get into that block at the moment it was mined.
971
01:17:32.270 --> 01:17:41.445
And At the exact moment. The exact moment. Right? Because the the fee market changes so quickly. And then whatever you paid on the fees, even it was too much or too little, we could
972
01:17:41.844 --> 01:17:58.030
credit or debit you the difference, and mining pools could, you know, make these type of agreements with people who create a lot of transactions. For example, there used to be something every day called BitMex o'clock where BitMex would just it was, like, 9 AM EST. Right? Whenever they process all their transactions.
973
01:17:58.489 --> 01:18:01.425
They would just broadcast, like, hilariously unoptimized,
974
01:18:02.525 --> 01:18:13.710
you know, huge multi They literally only did one withdrawal per day, and it was at the same time every day. And it was huge. It was, like, several blocks full. So if you're even in the next block ready to get mined, boom, you're suddenly buried.
975
01:18:14.090 --> 01:18:27.055
And I think they've fixed this maybe a year or so ago, so we don't have bit next clock anymore. But anybody who's watching the mempool remembers this event. And other and and they would they would pay way too much fees. Like, they would pay
976
01:18:27.739 --> 01:18:29.280
1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of sats
977
01:18:29.659 --> 01:18:33.039
more than they had to for, like, a simple relatively,
978
01:18:33.579 --> 01:18:39.515
low fee transaction they could've gotten away with. But just because they wanted their customers to get that money right away confirmed,
979
01:18:40.215 --> 01:18:46.679
they would overpay by quite a bit. And Binance and all the large exchanges typically do the same thing. They overpay
980
01:18:47.460 --> 01:18:51.320
way higher than they need to just to make sure that they get into the next block.
981
01:18:51.860 --> 01:18:52.360
Right.
982
01:18:54.015 --> 01:18:56.755
So we have another question. This one from Mark Hughesat.
983
01:18:58.575 --> 01:19:01.170
There are companies that use GPL software, but don't publish
984
01:19:11.385 --> 01:19:12.525
Well, that's just
985
01:19:13.145 --> 01:19:30.455
software piracy. Right? If you break the GPL license and you don't publish source code, then you are pirating that free software, ironically. And you would have to catch them just like Hollywood has to catch when you torrent a movie or something. You would have to to somehow find out that they are pirating your software,
986
01:19:30.915 --> 01:19:46.535
which yeah. If they never publish it, then you could never know. But if you're just a home user and you hack on the mempool code on your Raspberry Pi, you know, nobody would ever know about that Or care. Who would care. Or care. Exactly. But there are many cases when the GNU,
987
01:19:46.995 --> 01:19:48.215
the Free Software Foundation
988
01:19:48.755 --> 01:19:50.695
sues a large company like Cisco
989
01:19:51.155 --> 01:20:01.800
because they've decompiled the Cisco operating system and found the new libraries in there and say, yeah. Take them to court where you're violating the GPL, and they would force Cisco to open source
990
01:20:02.100 --> 01:20:14.760
all of their forked libraries. It's really just like a it's it's mostly a threat to, like, rich public tech companies that you have this massive liability if you do it. Right? Exactly. It's to keep the software free
991
01:20:15.380 --> 01:20:21.720
from large enterprises that would otherwise pirate it, basically. Would you would you say that in a perfect world,
992
01:20:23.135 --> 01:20:29.395
there's no such thing as piracy and there's just no enforcement of this stuff, or do you prefer to have the state there to
993
01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:35.140
enforce these things? Well, juicy question. Yeah. That's a deep topic, though.
994
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:41.295
I I'm afraid to answer this Matt will call me a status. I mean, no matter what, you're gonna get canceled by half of the audience.
995
01:20:42.075 --> 01:20:44.815
That's why it's a good question. I I think as a cypherpunk,
996
01:20:45.140 --> 01:20:50.340
you need to use the rules of the system against the system itself. Maybe a good example is,
997
01:20:51.140 --> 01:20:53.160
3 printed guns in the United States.
998
01:20:53.985 --> 01:20:58.325
Obviously, the government doesn't like if people can just print their own guns,
999
01:20:58.785 --> 01:20:59.285
and
1000
01:21:00.625 --> 01:21:04.360
whoever's publishing the 3 d CAD files to print the guns
1001
01:21:05.060 --> 01:21:10.520
can just go to court and play their game and put put on the table, yeah, first amendment, second amendment,
1002
01:21:10.965 --> 01:21:16.025
and they win in court. Just coded speech. Exactly. And so there are instances
1003
01:21:16.405 --> 01:21:18.345
when the most hardcore cypherpunks
1004
01:21:19.100 --> 01:21:23.440
are the ones like Adam Back in the nineties going to the supreme court
1005
01:21:23.820 --> 01:21:24.320
or,
1006
01:21:26.784 --> 01:21:27.505
what was his name?
1007
01:21:29.105 --> 01:21:31.284
Dj b, Daniel j Bernstein.
1008
01:21:32.065 --> 01:21:33.605
They went to the Supreme Court
1009
01:21:33.985 --> 01:21:34.725
and fought
1010
01:21:35.329 --> 01:21:36.150
the US government
1011
01:21:36.530 --> 01:21:37.030
that
1012
01:21:37.570 --> 01:21:42.150
code is you know, there's there's no reason to block people from exporting cryptography
1013
01:21:42.695 --> 01:21:47.435
because code is free speech, and they won. And so so some of the most respected Cypherpunks
1014
01:21:48.455 --> 01:21:59.830
actually use the state's own system against the state and won. Right. And so to say I mean, look at open source. Right. But so there's there's, I mean, there's this I would say there's a strong argument
1015
01:22:00.290 --> 01:22:01.750
that probably most people
1016
01:22:02.195 --> 01:22:09.175
don't disagree with that if if you have these systems that already exist, you know, kind of don't hate the player, hate the game,
1017
01:22:10.830 --> 01:22:13.090
There's a strong argument to use those systems
1018
01:22:13.870 --> 01:22:14.370
to
1019
01:22:15.230 --> 01:22:20.530
basically further our interests and to protect ourselves. But my question is really beyond that.
1020
01:22:22.065 --> 01:22:25.605
Would you prefer that those systems didn't exist in the first place? Right?
1021
01:22:26.465 --> 01:22:27.365
Like, in a
1022
01:22:28.310 --> 01:22:30.810
like, in a post Bitcoin open source world,
1023
01:22:32.470 --> 01:22:36.410
where we're fractured into many independent city states or citadels,
1024
01:22:38.905 --> 01:22:40.844
there there won't be widespread
1025
01:22:41.225 --> 01:22:43.324
easy enforcement of any of this shit.
1026
01:22:43.864 --> 01:22:46.605
I think that's a massive net benefit for everybody.
1027
01:22:48.540 --> 01:22:55.360
The transition might be messy, but I think that's a because everyone can just build on this open infrastructure.
1028
01:22:56.745 --> 01:22:57.645
Right? The current
1029
01:22:58.344 --> 01:23:09.070
free software movement is heavily dependent on the state to enforce that. And so if it did not exist in this hypothetical situation and a post Bitcoin, then all software
1030
01:23:09.690 --> 01:23:20.355
is MIT licensed. I might it's just fully open, unrestricted. It's the anarchy of the Internet. Right? And and then Which seems to me like a massive net benefit. I mean, obviously, it has trade offs. But Right. But in the meantime,
1031
01:23:21.775 --> 01:23:22.835
I don't want
1032
01:23:23.239 --> 01:23:27.900
a large company to take free software and make it not free.
1033
01:23:28.520 --> 01:23:31.815
And so if we can use the state system
1034
01:23:32.195 --> 01:23:34.775
to keep free software free in the meantime,
1035
01:23:35.795 --> 01:23:36.295
then
1036
01:23:36.915 --> 01:23:47.989
I guess that's the the the world that we live in right now. I mean, obviously, you can go to China and pirate stuff and you won't get in trouble. I mean, it's, like, literally the government strategy. Right? Or Russia too now. Right? They just,
1037
01:23:48.905 --> 01:23:55.725
you know, any any airline jets that were in Russia owned by foreign companies. They're like, no. These are ours now. Right? Right. So
1038
01:23:56.105 --> 01:23:58.045
there are already places where this
1039
01:23:59.050 --> 01:24:02.429
this intellectual property enforcement system does not exist,
1040
01:24:02.969 --> 01:24:06.829
and you have this anarchy of freedom and information.
1041
01:24:07.325 --> 01:24:14.430
And if you go to places in China, they'll print any book you want in a very nice professionally printed hard,
1042
01:24:15.070 --> 01:24:22.210
hardcover book. Right? So that to me is, like, the pinnacle of open information. Right? Sure. And if you're a good content creator or author, then
1043
01:24:24.975 --> 01:24:28.675
you should still be able to figure out some kind of way to sustainably monetize
1044
01:24:29.215 --> 01:24:33.475
your work. Right. It's like it's like trying to monetize the Memble open source project.
1045
01:24:33.860 --> 01:24:40.635
You can't really control the distribution of the source code. Source code is free. I mean, you still see and and you see, like,
1046
01:24:41.355 --> 01:24:46.414
I believe, Andreas did it. A bunch of other Bitcoin authors did it where they provide the PDF for free.
1047
01:24:51.730 --> 01:24:53.510
That they've self published, and
1048
01:24:53.969 --> 01:24:57.775
they've still off of the books because people wanna support the author,
1049
01:24:58.315 --> 01:24:59.535
but also the
1050
01:25:01.515 --> 01:25:04.175
access. Right? I think this is just all volunteerism.
1051
01:25:04.555 --> 01:25:05.375
Right? If
1052
01:25:05.990 --> 01:25:07.370
if you want to
1053
01:25:09.430 --> 01:25:13.345
if you wanna support an artist, you donate. This is how the MEM pool opens
1054
01:25:13.745 --> 01:25:18.965
those project is funded from donations directly from the community. Right. We give away all the
1055
01:25:19.425 --> 01:25:26.440
software for free. The website is totally free with no advertising. It's just a 100% funded by the community based on
1056
01:25:26.740 --> 01:25:30.855
the, you know, the voluntary they're voluntarily donating. They don't have to give us money.
1057
01:25:31.155 --> 01:25:31.655
And
1058
01:25:32.035 --> 01:25:36.295
you're kind of supporting the creators so that they continue
1059
01:25:36.915 --> 01:25:51.605
or you're you're paying for the next version of software. Right? Right. In a way. So And that that it's secure and robust and Right. So so in the future world maintained. Which which are arguably Menpool is already living in. Yeah. We're we're living in this post
1060
01:25:52.145 --> 01:25:52.645
Bitcoinization
1061
01:25:52.945 --> 01:25:54.405
world where everything is volunteerism.
1062
01:25:55.940 --> 01:26:05.639
But it but, you know, at the end of the day, we still have to use this copyright to enforce open source licenses or or trademarks to you know, we don't want
1063
01:26:06.805 --> 01:26:13.545
people stealing our or pirating our logo on T shirts. We wanna make the mempool shirts. Oh, you wanna talk about my favorite Explorer?
1064
01:26:15.550 --> 01:26:16.450
Was it mempoolbch.com
1065
01:26:17.550 --> 01:26:18.210
or some
1066
01:26:18.910 --> 01:26:28.095
Oh, yeah. I mean, many many The b cache the b cache mempool clone? Yeah. Many shipplings fork the mempool project and make their own Bitcoin explorers
1067
01:26:29.595 --> 01:26:33.970
where we have to very politely ask them to not put our logo
1068
01:26:34.670 --> 01:26:37.730
or our profile photos on your website.
1069
01:26:38.590 --> 01:26:39.250
I mean,
1070
01:26:39.710 --> 01:26:43.545
yeah, yeah, typically, if you fork an open source project, you need to call it something else.
1071
01:26:43.925 --> 01:26:44.565
You can't
1072
01:26:44.965 --> 01:26:47.145
Well, like, specifically in mempool's case,
1073
01:26:48.085 --> 01:26:50.409
mempool dot space is trademarked.
1074
01:26:50.790 --> 01:26:55.050
Yeah. Right. It in the logo. Right. So the source code is copyrighted,
1075
01:26:55.670 --> 01:27:01.645
and then we have an open source license that code to make it available for everyone. And just logos are trademarked
1076
01:27:02.665 --> 01:27:05.360
in the United States and and other countries, and then we
1077
01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:09.540
put, like, a open trademark policy on those trademarks so that
1078
01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:13.460
essentially, if you run an unmodified
1079
01:27:13.815 --> 01:27:15.835
copy of the mempool open source project,
1080
01:27:16.295 --> 01:27:21.675
then you're permitted to use the the mempool logo so that everyone knows what that is. But if you fork
1081
01:27:22.160 --> 01:27:29.380
the project and put Dogecoin on there or b cash or or some shitcoin of the week, yeah, you can't put our logo on there because people
1082
01:27:29.835 --> 01:27:45.080
trust that logo to be a Bitcoin Explorer, not a Shitcoin Explorer. Right. The logo is an open source is a brand, not an open source project. Exactly. And and for example, Linux is a registered trademark of Linus. Right? Right. And so if you fork Linux,
1083
01:27:45.735 --> 01:27:49.434
that's one of the ways they monetize the project actually is the the royalties from
1084
01:27:49.815 --> 01:27:53.514
trademark usage. So if you fork Linux and you make Wizz Linux,
1085
01:27:53.860 --> 01:28:01.320
I would have to pay a role to Linus for the use of the trademark, but not for the code because it's open. Right. So if you fork the Linux kernel, you call it something else. Linux.
1086
01:28:01.815 --> 01:28:02.395
No. That's
1087
01:28:02.775 --> 01:28:08.715
piss off Microsoft or or Linus or something. Right? But but I think there was, like, Microsoft Windows. Someone's like Windows.
1088
01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:14.920
Yeah. Windows. WizzNix. Yeah. So, yeah, if it's not confusingly similar, you can not have to pay royalties.
1089
01:28:15.380 --> 01:28:19.475
And just like yeah. You you're free to fork the mempool open source project, but
1090
01:28:20.095 --> 01:28:26.275
then you can't call it the mempool open source project. That's our project name. You have to call it something else.
1091
01:28:26.810 --> 01:28:27.550
It's free
1092
01:28:28.010 --> 01:28:31.710
software, but you can't call it what we call it. Got it.
1093
01:28:32.650 --> 01:28:33.150
Interesting.
1094
01:28:33.850 --> 01:28:34.989
So we're
1095
01:28:35.365 --> 01:28:38.665
very at an hour and a half. I mean, I did discuss this.
1096
01:28:40.645 --> 01:28:48.410
So let's discuss this. I mean, a lot of the freaks are already aware of Bisc. I talked about Biscol Time, swacking awesome product. You're heavily involved.
1097
01:28:50.465 --> 01:28:55.364
Bisk is a is is is software that you can freely run on your computer
1098
01:28:55.985 --> 01:28:58.485
and connect to other people in a
1099
01:28:59.570 --> 01:29:00.710
p to p way,
1100
01:29:01.410 --> 01:29:02.469
to trade Bitcoin,
1101
01:29:03.250 --> 01:29:05.030
for either Fiat or shitcoins.
1102
01:29:06.295 --> 01:29:09.755
Yeah. Bizkit is a great project and a great concept
1103
01:29:10.855 --> 01:29:13.275
made by very, very smart people. And
1104
01:29:13.990 --> 01:29:15.930
I think everyone loves BISK because
1105
01:29:16.470 --> 01:29:18.330
the the message is so strong.
1106
01:29:18.710 --> 01:29:21.290
The message is that KYC is the illicit activity.
1107
01:29:23.065 --> 01:29:23.545
We
1108
01:29:24.105 --> 01:29:26.685
I mean, Bisk is a is an open source software
1109
01:29:27.465 --> 01:29:30.445
program that connects you to other people running Bisk
1110
01:29:31.420 --> 01:29:36.000
so that you can trade Bitcoin peer to peer with other Bitcoiners directly
1111
01:29:36.460 --> 01:29:37.360
without other
1112
01:29:37.739 --> 01:29:43.885
trusted third parties knowing about your transaction details or even your name. Right. So in practice, it's like instead of
1113
01:29:44.345 --> 01:29:53.120
using Cash App to broker the transaction, which is a centralized regulated entity that could spy on you or a Gemini or Kraken or something.
1114
01:29:53.820 --> 01:29:59.605
Bisc allows 2 peers to connect directly to each other and exchange only the information that they want to exchange.
1115
01:30:00.065 --> 01:30:03.204
Right? This is a 100% routed over Tor.
1116
01:30:03.585 --> 01:30:15.929
Everyone just has an onion address and connects to each other in the app, and you can make an offer or take someone else's offer to trade Bitcoin for fiat in a number of payment methods all over the world.
1117
01:30:16.505 --> 01:30:17.885
I think in the United States,
1118
01:30:18.585 --> 01:30:20.765
US postal money order or Zelle
1119
01:30:21.145 --> 01:30:21.625
or,
1120
01:30:22.025 --> 01:30:30.680
few other methods are supported. I mean, you could also meet in person and exchange cash, or I think Amazon gift cards are popular now. There's a number of ways to
1121
01:30:31.455 --> 01:30:32.195
trade Bitcoin
1122
01:30:32.735 --> 01:30:33.235
privately
1123
01:30:33.935 --> 01:30:37.474
and peer to peer using Bisk, and and it's just a beautiful app.
1124
01:30:38.175 --> 01:30:40.594
Awesome. How long have you been working with the Bisk project?
1125
01:30:41.800 --> 01:30:48.860
Probably I think it was slightly before Mempel, so maybe, like, three and a half years ago. But the project is very old. The project is probably,
1126
01:30:49.225 --> 01:31:02.429
jeez, must be, like, 7 years or older now. It's it's one of the early Bitcoin It was, like, 2013 or 2014, maybe. Right. Right around 2013. Yeah. Sounds about right. So and even before then, I know they were thinking about it for a long time too because
1127
01:31:02.969 --> 01:31:04.190
it started from
1128
01:31:04.650 --> 01:31:08.330
what we called Satoshi Square, where you would go to a Bitcoin meetup and
1129
01:31:09.165 --> 01:31:14.385
I remember that. Yeah. There was there was not a lot of exchanges back then. There were not a lot of
1130
01:31:15.005 --> 01:31:18.705
infrastructure where you could trade. So you would just wanted just gotten crushed.
1131
01:31:19.550 --> 01:31:28.610
You would just show up at a meetup and say, hey, I'm looking to buy Bitcoin, like, out loud in the room. Right. And someone say, yeah, I'm looking to sell. And you would just open outcry
1132
01:31:29.304 --> 01:31:40.380
trading. And But they even had, like, some are more formalized, right, where it was, like, almost like a like a mercantile exchange pit or whatever where, like, someone would be standing up on a podium, and then people would
1133
01:31:40.840 --> 01:31:43.020
be orders, maybe yelling bids.
1134
01:31:44.680 --> 01:31:46.219
Form of peer to peer trading.
1135
01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:47.100
So
1136
01:31:47.755 --> 01:31:49.215
the digital version of that
1137
01:31:49.675 --> 01:31:53.375
was the idea for Bisk or Bitsquare at the time. So from Satoshi
1138
01:31:54.155 --> 01:31:54.655
Square,
1139
01:31:55.260 --> 01:32:00.080
the founders of Square Project tried to implement that same energy, and they created this
1140
01:32:00.940 --> 01:32:02.035
essentially like
1141
01:32:02.675 --> 01:32:08.695
on a peer to peer network, on the Bisk peer to peer network where you could make or take offers to trade Bitcoin and you can
1142
01:32:09.290 --> 01:32:12.829
directly with the counterparty. You don't even need to know who they are.
1143
01:32:13.369 --> 01:32:22.545
I mean, you could set up, what's what's the the cool way to do it? A Wyoming LLC with a PO box and use US postal money order, and then nobody knows
1144
01:32:23.185 --> 01:32:27.989
I think Econo Alchemist does guide for that. Right. Either he or Diverter does. Yeah. There's some ex
1145
01:32:29.010 --> 01:32:32.389
guides out there on how to trade private disk and the
1146
01:32:34.530 --> 01:32:47.930
the the centralized part that's collecting information, your counterparty in every transaction is gonna get information on you. Right? That's why some people set up LLCs. They like the postal orders because it doesn't have any bank account image tied to you. You just pay cash at a post office.
1147
01:32:48.550 --> 01:32:50.730
Right. There's there's very little,
1148
01:32:51.405 --> 01:33:02.920
and and so the the obvious questions are as much information as you wanna provide. Right? Because it's up to the peers how they want to use it. So the obvious questions, when I tell someone about Biscard, well, what if the other guy
1149
01:33:03.220 --> 01:33:09.385
scammed me? What if I send them money, he doesn't send me the Bitcoin? And this is just the key problem. Right? So this has this
1150
01:33:09.844 --> 01:33:11.125
decentralized organization, the
1151
01:33:12.005 --> 01:33:14.905
this DAO to resolve trade disputes, essentially, and
1152
01:33:15.430 --> 01:33:19.290
manage the parameters of the peer to peer network. For example, if
1153
01:33:20.070 --> 01:33:21.770
Bob and Alice are
1154
01:33:22.445 --> 01:33:25.905
agreeing on some terms to buy 1 Bitcoin for $1,000,
1155
01:33:26.764 --> 01:33:32.300
if Bob wires the money to Alice on whatever payment method they agree on, but Alice doesn't
1156
01:33:32.679 --> 01:33:33.659
release the Bitcoin.
1157
01:33:34.679 --> 01:33:36.860
First of all, it's in a 2 of 2 multisig.
1158
01:33:39.255 --> 01:33:41.034
Previously, it was a 2 of 3 multisig
1159
01:33:41.335 --> 01:33:41.835
where
1160
01:33:42.295 --> 01:33:44.954
an arbitrator from Bisk would hold one of the keys.
1161
01:33:45.255 --> 01:33:48.510
But early on, we realized this is an obvious security flaw because
1162
01:33:49.370 --> 01:33:50.110
the arbitrator
1163
01:33:50.650 --> 01:33:53.710
could just go to Bisk and take every offer,
1164
01:33:54.010 --> 01:33:55.550
and now they hold 2 keys.
1165
01:33:56.405 --> 01:33:57.305
Right. So
1166
01:33:57.845 --> 01:34:02.185
the newer version of DISC now uses the 2 of 2 multisig with a time lock.
1167
01:34:02.645 --> 01:34:05.705
And this way, only Alice and Bob have the
1168
01:34:06.150 --> 01:34:09.210
keys to settle their transaction on their own. However,
1169
01:34:09.670 --> 01:34:14.570
if some time goes by, which is either 10 or 20 days depending on the payment method, if they cannot
1170
01:34:15.505 --> 01:34:17.525
settle this trade on their own,
1171
01:34:18.065 --> 01:34:21.605
then the funds will essentially be sent to the BiskDAO.
1172
01:34:22.465 --> 01:34:22.965
And,
1173
01:34:23.970 --> 01:34:27.510
well, first of all, they'll they'll start mediation. So before the the funds go anywhere,
1174
01:34:28.130 --> 01:34:44.250
mediator will just join the chat and or not join this chat. They'll make separate new chats, so they can't even see what you guys discussed previously. But the mediator will see the details of the trade and talk to Alice and Bob and and try and work it out. Because usually, newbies make mistakes or they mess up their node or
1175
01:34:44.630 --> 01:34:51.335
whatever reason that the mail got slow and so they didn't get it. But, eventually, the mediator helps them out, Or
1176
01:34:52.035 --> 01:34:59.175
if they can't resolve it with the mediation, then it would go to arbitration where one of the parties would broadcast this time locked transaction.
1177
01:34:59.610 --> 01:35:03.230
After 10 or 20 days, funds would go to Bisk, and then the mediator
1178
01:35:03.610 --> 01:35:05.550
would make a suggested payout
1179
01:35:06.409 --> 01:35:07.789
on the Bisk dApp. Alice
1180
01:35:08.165 --> 01:35:16.344
Alice showed me, you know, enough sufficient evidence to where she sent the US Postal money order. She has a photo of the envelope and the receipt from the mailbox.
1181
01:35:17.250 --> 01:35:23.989
And I checked on the post office website that it was indeed cashed at this post office for this amount, so I I suggest that,
1182
01:35:24.369 --> 01:35:26.494
you know, she gets the the payout.
1183
01:35:27.034 --> 01:35:27.855
And, usually,
1184
01:35:29.114 --> 01:35:29.614
this
1185
01:35:29.994 --> 01:35:31.534
combined with security deposits
1186
01:35:31.835 --> 01:35:34.175
is enough to to prevent any scams
1187
01:35:34.690 --> 01:35:43.750
or this this disincentifies scams anyway. Because a scammer doesn't like to lose their own funds. A scammer doesn't like to risk their own money. So if they have to put up security deposit
1188
01:35:44.065 --> 01:35:48.244
and if they try to scam on someone and they lose their security deposit, well, they don't
1189
01:35:48.784 --> 01:35:52.324
come in. Right. You're adding a cost to the scam. Right. So
1190
01:35:52.739 --> 01:36:00.760
the game theory and the incentives are all there to resolve disputes. And then because of that dispute resolution process and security deposits,
1191
01:36:01.805 --> 01:36:08.625
the game theory is that scammers don't really maybe, like, once a month Right. It's not perfect. Yeah. It's not perfect, but it's been mitigated enough.
1192
01:36:09.200 --> 01:36:11.940
Right. Without using any form of KYC
1193
01:36:12.240 --> 01:36:19.755
or Right. The alternative is a centralized third party that is KYC ing everyone and has huge fraud departments and lawyers
1194
01:36:20.215 --> 01:36:33.130
and all this bullshit. Exactly. Are don't get access to markets because of it, and they can't. And the biz network bypasses all of that and just says, okay, what are the 3 threat models? They're always security, privacy, and censorship.
1195
01:36:34.055 --> 01:36:35.515
So for the security side,
1196
01:36:36.135 --> 01:36:38.155
arbitration can resolve this
1197
01:36:38.695 --> 01:36:39.595
scam risk
1198
01:36:39.975 --> 01:36:43.830
and disincentivize it with security deposits and the ability to confiscate them.
1199
01:36:44.450 --> 01:36:49.830
And privacy risk, only the 2 transaction parties, Alice and Bob, will know about the transaction.
1200
01:36:50.245 --> 01:36:51.865
If they have a dispute, then
1201
01:36:52.405 --> 01:37:01.080
a mediator would also see those transaction details. But for the most part, it's as private as it can get. And then censorship, because there is no BIS company,
1202
01:37:01.940 --> 01:37:06.040
there is no BISK servers. It's all peer to peer over Tor.
1203
01:37:06.445 --> 01:37:08.705
It's extremely censorship resistant and
1204
01:37:10.525 --> 01:37:11.025
unregulated.
1205
01:37:14.690 --> 01:37:15.190
Awesome.
1206
01:37:16.850 --> 01:37:23.510
So, I mean, there one of the cool panels that I put you on for the open source stage was, the decks panel,
1207
01:37:24.525 --> 01:37:27.745
and CSU Wildcat was on there. He's working with Square,
1208
01:37:28.765 --> 01:37:29.745
on his decentralized
1209
01:37:30.125 --> 01:37:30.625
identifiers.
1210
01:37:31.165 --> 01:37:39.920
TBD is what it's called. Right. No. So but he's he's working specifically on DIDS, his decentralized identifiers, which are gonna be integrated into
1211
01:37:40.835 --> 01:37:41.575
their TBD
1212
01:37:41.955 --> 01:37:43.335
protocol, which is,
1213
01:37:44.355 --> 01:37:44.855
basically
1214
01:37:45.155 --> 01:37:48.455
their the open network decentralized exchange protocol,
1215
01:37:49.610 --> 01:37:50.909
that allows you to trade
1216
01:37:52.250 --> 01:37:54.809
Bitcoin for other things, whether that's Fiat or
1217
01:37:58.075 --> 01:38:00.015
Sandwiches. Sandwiches or
1218
01:38:00.555 --> 01:38:02.655
I I use cars as an example.
1219
01:38:05.760 --> 01:38:12.420
How do you what are you what are your thoughts on so so BIST doesn't have first of all, if you haven't listened to that panel,
1220
01:38:13.280 --> 01:38:21.635
which day was that? I think it was day 2, the first general admission. Right. So if you go to all all three open source stage is,
1221
01:38:22.219 --> 01:38:31.679
are on the podcast feed, and there's actually time stamps where you can click the individual panels. But if you go to day 2, click their individual panel. Your podcast app should just pull you right to that moment.
1222
01:38:32.755 --> 01:38:34.295
But what are your thoughts on
1223
01:38:34.835 --> 01:38:37.815
using basically a reputation system as an additional
1224
01:38:38.435 --> 01:38:43.710
fraud layer? Like, if I mean and we've seen centralized reputation systems, stuff like eBay
1225
01:38:44.090 --> 01:38:45.630
or Airbnb, where
1226
01:38:46.010 --> 01:38:58.385
if you've used Airbnb a lot, you know it's always more risky to book from a host that doesn't have a bunch of reviews. But if a host has 60 good reviews and you're like, wow, this host is awesome, you feel more comfortable,
1227
01:38:59.310 --> 01:39:01.090
renting a room from them.
1228
01:39:01.950 --> 01:39:07.010
Yeah. That's a good question, and, obviously, there's going to be trade offs with the reputation system because
1229
01:39:07.835 --> 01:39:10.094
if you're optimizing for maximum privacy,
1230
01:39:11.355 --> 01:39:17.690
you would not want a reputation system because a reputation system is literally linking all of your previous transactions and
1231
01:39:18.489 --> 01:39:19.469
Currently, it's a one
1232
01:39:19.929 --> 01:39:27.389
one single identity where I can see everything they've been doing. So Bisc does not have any form of a reputation system or,
1233
01:39:27.755 --> 01:39:29.855
you know, even an identity system,
1234
01:39:30.155 --> 01:39:30.655
really.
1235
01:39:31.435 --> 01:39:34.495
There are few mechanisms in there where,
1236
01:39:35.230 --> 01:39:36.929
like, the hash of a payment account
1237
01:39:37.630 --> 01:39:38.369
can have
1238
01:39:38.750 --> 01:39:43.465
some street cred on the Bisq network. Like a hash of a bank account or something? Right.
1239
01:39:43.945 --> 01:39:49.645
And that could be considered a decentralized identifier if you wanna call it that, but it's nothing like
1240
01:39:50.344 --> 01:39:53.450
the newer protocols and where everything is based around these
1241
01:39:54.010 --> 01:39:54.510
decentralized
1242
01:39:54.890 --> 01:39:55.390
identifiers.
1243
01:39:56.090 --> 01:40:00.990
I mean, Bisk doesn't wanna have an identity system. Right? I mean, you can we've we've discussed having
1244
01:40:01.534 --> 01:40:03.955
one Tor Onion host name per transaction.
1245
01:40:05.054 --> 01:40:09.315
Right now, it uses the same onion, but you it's very easy to delete it and make a new one.
1246
01:40:09.695 --> 01:40:10.195
The
1247
01:40:10.770 --> 01:40:14.310
the cost of creating a new Onion host name is basically free. So
1248
01:40:15.490 --> 01:40:17.110
if you want anonymity
1249
01:40:18.425 --> 01:40:31.940
and you want privacy, yeah, you don't want a reputation system. Right. TV DEX trade off there. Yeah. TV DEX has the problem of being developed by a centralized regulated company, and so, obviously, they need to do KYC AML compliance.
1250
01:40:32.320 --> 01:40:33.140
And so, therefore,
1251
01:40:33.935 --> 01:40:35.155
their protocol inflammation,
1252
01:40:35.455 --> 01:40:35.955
obviously,
1253
01:40:36.495 --> 01:40:40.594
gonna focus around. Well, the the cool part of TBD to me is
1254
01:40:41.110 --> 01:40:44.329
very similar to the corporate of Fisk to me, which is
1255
01:40:44.869 --> 01:40:46.170
if you create this
1256
01:40:47.030 --> 01:40:48.250
this open protocol,
1257
01:40:48.695 --> 01:40:52.555
you can allow people to use it however they wanna use it. So there could be
1258
01:40:53.175 --> 01:40:56.635
what affects to a KYC compliant transactions on TBD,
1259
01:40:57.575 --> 01:40:58.075
where
1260
01:40:58.450 --> 01:40:59.190
both entities
1261
01:40:59.570 --> 01:41:00.070
require
1262
01:41:01.090 --> 01:41:03.750
your did or whatever we wanna call it, your your
1263
01:41:04.210 --> 01:41:09.445
your reputation to have hash commitments from some kind of KYC authority. Right?
1264
01:41:09.985 --> 01:41:14.805
That has maybe checked your passport and checked all this in information for you and and then basically
1265
01:41:15.190 --> 01:41:22.329
hashed a reference into your did that says, you know, this person is who they say they are, and they talk about all these different things where it can be more,
1266
01:41:22.949 --> 01:41:23.449
robust
1267
01:41:23.985 --> 01:41:37.890
than typical k current KYC systems where it's, like, they're above a certain age or they live in this state or they're not a felon or, like but not the specific this is a their selfie and their passport or whatever. But then also, you could have
1268
01:41:38.270 --> 01:41:40.690
transactors in that open protocol that are,
1269
01:41:42.375 --> 01:41:43.755
maybe they don't require
1270
01:41:44.295 --> 01:41:45.195
that that
1271
01:41:45.974 --> 01:41:48.215
in-depth information, but they just wanna know,
1272
01:41:49.370 --> 01:41:57.785
which country you live in or maybe even less than that. They just wanna know what your social media account is or something, and that that is hashed into your did. Right? So
1273
01:41:58.105 --> 01:41:58.605
the
1274
01:41:58.985 --> 01:42:07.325
idea my understanding of their idea is that it's this open protocol where there'll be different layers of how much people want in terms of reputation or KYC,
1275
01:42:08.970 --> 01:42:15.710
and it just comes down to the individual transactors. But it's interesting the different trade off between just no reputation system period
1276
01:42:16.635 --> 01:42:21.375
and working around that with basically the security deposit model that Bisca has
1277
01:42:21.755 --> 01:42:25.215
versus a reputation system. Right. And and I think
1278
01:42:25.640 --> 01:42:28.520
the whole and in fact, the first time we discussed this,
1279
01:42:29.159 --> 01:42:34.395
jeez, it was years ago, I think, on TFTC with uncle uncle Marty.
1280
01:42:35.655 --> 01:42:40.635
We talked about with Steve also was there, and you asked Steve Yeah. Similar question.
1281
01:42:41.210 --> 01:42:43.630
First time I ever met you in person, it was Yeah.
1282
01:42:43.930 --> 01:42:45.550
The start of a beautiful friendship.
1283
01:42:46.010 --> 01:42:53.375
And, Steve had a very elegant answer, I thought, to this question. And he says, you know, why have reputation systems?
1284
01:42:54.475 --> 01:42:56.575
All you really need is the integrity.
1285
01:42:56.910 --> 01:42:59.010
Right? Because what is the actual threat model
1286
01:43:00.510 --> 01:43:02.930
for why to have a reputation system
1287
01:43:03.310 --> 01:43:05.890
is the first in the in the first place. Right?
1288
01:43:06.535 --> 01:43:07.035
If
1289
01:43:07.495 --> 01:43:13.594
you know that you're gonna get paid on the trade, either through the ordinary honest way, or if you do
1290
01:43:14.100 --> 01:43:14.600
unfortunately
1291
01:43:15.380 --> 01:43:19.000
have a dispute that the Bisk DAO will make it up to you somehow,
1292
01:43:19.780 --> 01:43:23.685
then why would you care about the reputation? If the integrity is there,
1293
01:43:24.085 --> 01:43:27.865
then there is no need for such a reputation system, and it is only
1294
01:43:29.205 --> 01:43:30.825
going to hurt your privacy.
1295
01:43:31.760 --> 01:43:42.935
And, sure, if you with a decentralized identifier system, you could make throwaway identities, one for every transaction. You can do that. But you get penalized in that system because, like I said, with Airbnb,
1296
01:43:44.595 --> 01:43:47.335
like, by design because there's a reputation system,
1297
01:43:49.200 --> 01:43:50.820
hosts that have good reputations
1298
01:43:51.280 --> 01:43:57.620
on the network or even guests that have good it goes both ways that have good reputations on the network are more likely to
1299
01:43:59.844 --> 01:44:04.025
get matches with peers or get higher prices on their Airbnb rentals because
1300
01:44:04.804 --> 01:44:09.429
I think Airbnb has a very, very different threat model from trading Bitcoin,
1301
01:44:09.969 --> 01:44:13.829
online. Right? I mean, if you're physically going to be in somebody else's house,
1302
01:44:14.295 --> 01:44:18.715
you probably want some assurance that they're not a murderer or something. Right? And,
1303
01:44:20.215 --> 01:44:20.715
likewise,
1304
01:44:21.860 --> 01:44:23.480
in an Uber ride, for example,
1305
01:44:23.860 --> 01:44:29.800
you know, it's a peer to peer centrally managed peer to peer riding system. You wanna make sure Right. You wanna have some assurance
1306
01:44:30.415 --> 01:44:34.195
from the Uber company that this guy is legit and not gonna
1307
01:44:34.895 --> 01:44:35.955
drive you into,
1308
01:44:36.335 --> 01:44:44.900
like, a sketchy corner of the city and Right. Rob you or do worse. So for those threat models, sure, rep reputation system might make sense. But
1309
01:44:45.680 --> 01:44:50.645
when you're purely doing a financial trade of sats for cash,
1310
01:44:51.265 --> 01:44:57.605
you do not need a reputation system. And Bisk has proven this. Wait. I mean, cash is different. Right? Because cash is instantly settled.
1311
01:44:58.625 --> 01:45:04.550
There's all these fraud elements that happen in the traditional financial system. It's a fiat side that
1312
01:45:04.930 --> 01:45:08.150
that causes issues. Like, I mean, especially, like, if you look at,
1313
01:45:09.015 --> 01:45:09.915
I would argue,
1314
01:45:10.455 --> 01:45:12.554
if you're trading Bitcoin for shit coins,
1315
01:45:14.215 --> 01:45:27.685
you really don't need a reputation system because it's all just cryptographically verified instantly settled. Exactly. Right. And those shitcoins could be stable coins or whatever Exactly. Tokens, whatever it is instantly. So the the fraud issues you see are
1316
01:45:28.145 --> 01:45:42.800
they come from the fiat system and the inefficiencies of the fiat system and Like, someone could write someone a bad check. Or Right. Or or or they could I they could steal someone's account and send you fraudulent payments that get charged back and then get reversed. Or
1317
01:45:43.340 --> 01:45:52.315
Right. So like, if like, imagine someone gets access to someone's bank account, so then they instantly buy a bunch of Bitcoin on Bisk with that bank account.
1318
01:45:52.840 --> 01:45:54.139
The bank then realizes,
1319
01:45:55.159 --> 01:46:02.675
what happened and just reverses the transaction on their side. Yeah. Some payment methods do have chargeback risk. Right. And so
1320
01:46:03.375 --> 01:46:07.555
Bisk has this duty to mitigate those chargeback risks. So, for example,
1321
01:46:08.800 --> 01:46:10.500
in our bank transfer
1322
01:46:10.800 --> 01:46:11.860
system is
1323
01:46:12.480 --> 01:46:13.460
not chargebackable,
1324
01:46:13.920 --> 01:46:24.324
so there is no chargeback risk. If I wire you money, it's instant and done, and the transaction cannot be reversed at all ever without, like, a court order or something very, very difficult to obtain.
1325
01:46:24.705 --> 01:46:25.890
Whereas in the US,
1326
01:46:26.450 --> 01:46:34.230
it's almost a joke. You can just call up the credit card. Oh, yeah. My thing got hacked. Can you just charge back that money? And they'll do it. Right. And so in the US,
1327
01:46:35.005 --> 01:46:41.745
one of the popular payment methods, Zelle, does have some chargeback risk. And so to mitigate this, the Bisk developers came up with this clever idea
1328
01:46:42.205 --> 01:46:42.705
where
1329
01:46:43.500 --> 01:46:46.240
the hash of your payment account data
1330
01:46:47.660 --> 01:46:53.835
gets propped through the BISK peer to peer network so that every node knows the age of your payment accounts.
1331
01:46:54.455 --> 01:46:55.275
And so
1332
01:46:56.055 --> 01:46:58.075
if your account age is
1333
01:46:59.015 --> 01:47:03.250
older than 30 days or something like this and other people have cryptographically
1334
01:47:03.630 --> 01:47:10.290
signed it who were signed. So it's, basically, if your payment account was vouched for by another vouched person,
1335
01:47:11.015 --> 01:47:20.235
then Because they made a successful trade with you. Right? Right. And it did not go to arbitration. So that is a reputation system in that regard. In an anonymous way. And then so if there
1336
01:47:20.850 --> 01:47:34.685
if there's fraud with that Zelle account, then does that person get blackballed from the system? Exactly. So that's the mitigations. Right? So Without knowing the specific Zelle account, you know the hash, which is a unique identifier that can't be reversed. Correct. And so that's
1337
01:47:35.125 --> 01:47:42.140
if you wanna call it a reputation system, sure, it's more of a decentralized web of trust or blacklist or something. And so if an arbitrator
1338
01:47:42.680 --> 01:47:48.435
or mediator on DISC sees some fraud and and chargeback, then, yeah, that payment account is now,
1339
01:47:48.895 --> 01:47:52.915
nuked. And that's the that's the mitigation. Right? And, also, the Bisk DAO
1340
01:47:53.455 --> 01:47:59.010
can always reimburse traders out of the out of their own DAO funds, which has happened in the past.
1341
01:47:59.390 --> 01:48:01.170
Couple years ago, there was this
1342
01:48:01.470 --> 01:48:09.075
security vulnerability in the Bisk app where I think it was, like, 6 people 6 traders on the Monero to BTC market got
1343
01:48:09.535 --> 01:48:10.515
some funds stolen
1344
01:48:10.975 --> 01:48:13.910
through a very elaborate attack where Bisco wasn't verifying
1345
01:48:14.290 --> 01:48:16.150
the correct payout address or something.
1346
01:48:16.610 --> 01:48:17.989
And they they sold probably,
1347
01:48:18.690 --> 01:48:19.590
like, almost $200,000
1348
01:48:20.130 --> 01:48:23.534
worth of Monero, I think. And so the did
1349
01:48:24.235 --> 01:48:30.620
a proposal. Alright. Should we, you know, divert the trading fee revenue to pay these guys back? And they did. They got
1350
01:48:30.920 --> 01:48:31.420
their
1351
01:48:31.800 --> 01:48:36.540
$200,000 back or whatever it was. I mean, it took, like, a whole year to pay them back, but they got they got made whole.
1352
01:48:36.975 --> 01:48:40.755
So, I mean, you've been working with Bisk for over 3 years now.
1353
01:48:41.215 --> 01:48:45.554
Bisk is obviously an extremely vital project in in a world where
1354
01:48:47.670 --> 01:48:49.290
we're seeing more KYC
1355
01:48:50.790 --> 01:48:53.555
go throughout its KYC is just
1356
01:48:54.115 --> 01:49:01.335
insidious. It just enters every aspect of our lives. You have all these centralized parties that are getting regulated and cracked down on if they're not implementing
1357
01:49:02.430 --> 01:49:13.335
these these stringent regulations, these burdensome regulations that don't actually prevent crime because criminals use bought or stolen information and get around it in other ways, just hurts honest individuals.
1358
01:49:14.595 --> 01:49:18.935
So we're seeing all these crackdowns happen, and I will say before I get to this question that
1359
01:49:19.960 --> 01:49:22.540
whether TBD is successful or things like Robosats
1360
01:49:22.920 --> 01:49:26.460
or even HODL HODL, which is a more centralized trade off balance,
1361
01:49:27.665 --> 01:49:36.165
We we want as many options for Bitcoiners as possible. I mean, at at the end of the day, that makes the whole system more robust that that people have all these different options in terms of
1362
01:49:37.400 --> 01:49:38.380
using their Bitcoin
1363
01:49:38.680 --> 01:49:40.780
and and obtaining more Bitcoin.
1364
01:49:42.760 --> 01:49:46.140
But 3 years over 3 years working with this, what,
1365
01:49:47.795 --> 01:49:51.255
like, what have you learned? What what are the pain points? What are the
1366
01:49:51.715 --> 01:49:54.215
what do you wish it did better? But, like,
1367
01:49:55.140 --> 01:49:58.679
in your view, I I think you have a very unique perspective here.
1368
01:49:59.780 --> 01:50:01.480
Like, how can the overarching
1369
01:50:01.940 --> 01:50:02.840
Bitcoin ecosystem,
1370
01:50:03.460 --> 01:50:04.120
you know,
1371
01:50:05.054 --> 01:50:12.034
see the the lessons that were learned in this development and and maybe build a project that's better or improve this itself?
1372
01:50:13.119 --> 01:50:14.260
Yeah. That's a good question.
1373
01:50:14.880 --> 01:50:17.460
This is not perfect by any means.
1374
01:50:18.480 --> 01:50:20.420
I mean, the first of all, the code is
1375
01:50:20.880 --> 01:50:28.055
quite old and aging. It it was written in Java in in a time, you know, starting, like, 6 or 7 years ago, I think.
1376
01:50:28.755 --> 01:50:29.255
That's
1377
01:50:31.410 --> 01:50:33.110
it was written in the time where
1378
01:50:33.490 --> 01:50:35.190
SPV was still used.
1379
01:50:35.890 --> 01:50:42.795
Bloom filters were still used. This technology is not really used by Bitcoin anymore now. The you know, it's moved on to
1380
01:50:43.255 --> 01:50:45.755
better ways of having light nodes on the network
1381
01:50:46.615 --> 01:50:48.555
with their own trade offs and everything.
1382
01:50:49.090 --> 01:50:53.510
But I think more more more than anything, the code base is just this kind
1383
01:50:54.290 --> 01:51:07.250
of aging Java code base that's very difficult to work with, and it's very heavy to run a Java virtual machine on your computer. I mean, if you anyone who's ever used Biscuits known that the fans in your laptop will
1384
01:51:07.650 --> 01:51:09.990
start spinning and your laptop will get very hot
1385
01:51:10.450 --> 01:51:17.215
because your disk node is using all the CPU power and trying to sync all this data. And so
1386
01:51:18.395 --> 01:51:22.495
I actually made a proposal a couple years ago to reimplement this in Rust lang,
1387
01:51:22.875 --> 01:51:23.375
which
1388
01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:27.579
we actually got a very simple proof of concept working where we had the
1389
01:51:28.599 --> 01:51:30.300
the proof of concept Rust
1390
01:51:31.005 --> 01:51:34.225
biz cap look in implementation. It's called risk, r I s q,
1391
01:51:34.925 --> 01:51:37.345
running inside of an Android app
1392
01:51:38.300 --> 01:51:50.835
so that on my Android phone running like Graphene OS, I had Bisc running directly on the phone with no computer, no Raspberry Pi, connecting directly to Tor network, connecting directly to other
1393
01:51:51.215 --> 01:51:52.755
BISK peer to peer nodes
1394
01:51:53.215 --> 01:51:56.880
and getting the the orders on the market the offers on the market.
1395
01:51:57.820 --> 01:51:58.320
And
1396
01:51:59.260 --> 01:52:05.575
the and I made a proposal to basically get the bat Biscount of fund the development of this Rust implementation,
1397
01:52:06.435 --> 01:52:08.775
and the proposal was rejected by,
1398
01:52:09.290 --> 01:52:24.095
you know, the the founders of the of the project, basically, who voted against it. Because they hold the most DAO tokens. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's their project. Right? Right. It's like if you made a proposal to mempool sore a mempool space and said we wanna reimplement it in a different language,
1399
01:52:24.475 --> 01:52:31.760
me and Simon would probably say no. You know They could just do it anyway. Right. I mean You just won't fund it. I just wanted yeah. I wanted them to pay for it.
1400
01:52:32.400 --> 01:52:43.835
I had this other developer, Justin, I was working with the time who's, I think, now with the money. But he worked very hard on it, and, you know, there was some drama. Basically, the I think the founders wanted to keep using the Java code base.
1401
01:52:44.469 --> 01:52:46.890
And despite our really cool proof of concept,
1402
01:52:48.070 --> 01:52:51.770
which we, you know, we got up and running very quickly in Rust, they said,
1403
01:52:52.245 --> 01:52:52.745
no.
1404
01:52:53.125 --> 01:52:57.945
We want you to use the Java code base with this new RPC API that we're developing.
1405
01:52:58.725 --> 01:53:01.625
Jeez, it must have been, like, 2 over 2 years ago,
1406
01:53:02.230 --> 01:53:10.010
and I think that RPC API is still not ready to go. Right? So that was just, like where whereas if if we would have kept working on that Rust implementation
1407
01:53:10.415 --> 01:53:30.035
for 2 years now, we would have had a kick ass BISK app running on every Android phone. Right. So you have 2 trade offs there. You have or 2 pain points that you've felt with the best project, which is basically tech debt, which is just you have this this massive old code base that's hard to work on, hard to iterate on. And then the second thing being,
1408
01:53:30.655 --> 01:53:36.275
I would say, is that we're increasingly moving towards this mobile future where people don't even own computers.
1409
01:53:37.940 --> 01:53:40.360
And if you want real usage of something,
1410
01:53:41.380 --> 01:53:44.120
there should be at at least a mobile
1411
01:53:44.665 --> 01:53:51.725
capable way of using it. But I would say I would even go further where it should be almost a mobile first development where you're
1412
01:53:52.200 --> 01:54:00.620
you're expecting the overwhelm. Like, I even so, like, I I self host analytics for for civil dispatch, and, like, you see on the analytics that
1413
01:54:02.355 --> 01:54:08.614
there is the overwhelming majority of people are coming in through mobile browsers. Right? And that's obviously a very basic,
1414
01:54:09.800 --> 01:54:24.455
rudimentary data point, but most people, their main their main computer, if not their only computer, is a mobile phone. Yeah. I mean, there's just so many reasons why it should be mobile first or even having the ability to run a headless disk node on a Raspberry Pi running Umbrel,
1415
01:54:24.835 --> 01:54:59.105
you know, where you can one click install disk from the Umbrel app store or something and have it remotely connect to your phone. Zeus model where you have the LND or core lightning node running, and then you have Zeus on your phone that natively connects back to it. Yeah. And and every day, I get like samurai model where you just scan a QR code, same idea. Exactly. Able to connect to your dojo. And and every day, 9,000 people ask me when disk on Umbro. And Right. I have to explain to them that there is no web interface for this, and there is no mobile app for this that can connect remotely to the headless daemon if it ran it headlessly. So and even the RPC API is not,
1416
01:54:59.645 --> 01:55:03.745
I think, a 100% ready to go either. Even though it's been years, they've been working on it now. So
1417
01:55:04.960 --> 01:55:17.895
while you could, in theory, run Bisc on a Raspberry Pi, you have no way to interact with it. And it would be so huge for Bisc to do this because most people do not keep their computer on 24 hours a day. And so they just
1418
01:55:18.355 --> 01:55:28.869
close their laptop lid, and their Bisk node goes to sleep, and all of their offers disappear from the other outstanding trades. Exactly. All the liquidity just appears from the the market.
1419
01:55:29.409 --> 01:55:33.705
So if you had Bisq running on Raspberry Pi, you would probably triple the liquidity
1420
01:55:34.885 --> 01:55:43.620
or more because of the 24 hours, offers being available. And then secondly, you'd have people remotely being able to trade, so
1421
01:55:44.160 --> 01:55:49.540
you could respond to those offers much quicker, which is an obvious pain point for anyone who uses BISK, which is that the liquidity
1422
01:55:50.465 --> 01:55:51.685
is is not nearly
1423
01:55:52.065 --> 01:55:57.285
not it's it's light years behind the liquidity of, like, a centralized regulated exchange.
1424
01:55:58.260 --> 01:56:06.840
And, really, to get a good price, you want to have your offer up there for a while because of the liquidity. So you're you're stuck in a situation where you're always running your your computer.
1425
01:56:07.395 --> 01:56:32.145
So you really can't use your main laptop for something like that. You almost need a you need a desktop that is just always on. Right. I know lots of people who actually have a whole extra laptop, like their old MacBook or something just for business. That's like running in the corner of their their bedroom or office that is just constantly has their Bisk offers up. Right. And when you go to their house and you ask to borrow their MacBook charge or whatever, they're like, no. Don't use that one. That's powering my laptop. You know? Don't unplug that.
1426
01:56:32.445 --> 01:56:32.945
Yeah.
1427
01:56:33.280 --> 01:56:36.900
So it would be nice to reimplement DISC in a modern
1428
01:56:37.440 --> 01:56:41.220
protocol way, in a modern programming language, mobile first,
1429
01:56:41.605 --> 01:56:54.240
probably integrate it with all the popular wallets so that when you need to to fund the bisque trade, it just opens your and in practice, what you're seeing is something getting built from scratch in that situation. Right? I think at this point, yeah, it would be a full reimplementation.
1430
01:56:55.340 --> 01:57:01.035
So while while the Bisc app is great and it works and people use it every day to trade,
1431
01:57:01.495 --> 01:57:02.715
it could be
1432
01:57:03.175 --> 01:57:03.675
reborn.
1433
01:57:04.135 --> 01:57:05.495
And there are efforts to
1434
01:57:06.375 --> 01:57:15.190
well, I guess, BISK 2, they they've been working on this for a while now, which which my understanding is it's gonna be a more generic contract execution environment, but they're still not addressing,
1435
01:57:16.370 --> 01:57:26.645
a lot of the the problems I see, which is, like, the aging code base. I mean, they're still gonna break it in Java with the you know, just So, I mean, I think that's an interesting thought process to go down. So if
1436
01:57:27.250 --> 01:57:33.110
if if you were to build an alternative to BIS that tries to accomplish the same goals as BIS from scratch
1437
01:57:33.730 --> 01:57:34.230
today,
1438
01:57:35.105 --> 01:57:43.260
what would you what would be the key highlights of of that? And maybe, obviously, like, this is from your perspective, but, obviously, someone else could build it.
1439
01:57:43.739 --> 01:57:47.900
You're the dream the dream alternative. What is the dream alternative today if we could
1440
01:57:48.380 --> 01:58:08.840
Yeah. That's what we know today. I I guess, nowadays, everybody I mean, there were there were no Raspberry Pi full node 6 or 7 years ago when this got started. Even 2 years ago. Exactly. Like, Umbrella is still quite the newcomers in the space have no idea how bad it was. Yeah. It's it's and people say, like, development of Bitcoin goes slow. Right? But, like, on that on that front, it's amazing how much
1441
01:58:09.665 --> 01:58:19.205
Even Memphill's space. Has been made. Yeah. We did not Memphill did not exist, like, over 3 years ago. Right? Right. So When I got into the space, the block explorers we were using was just fucking
1442
01:58:19.699 --> 01:58:32.815
out of garbage. Yeah. I guess if I had to implement this from scratch, the wish list would be something like of course, you separate the back end daemon from the front end daemon in the typical Zeus model where you pair a mobile app to
1443
01:58:33.355 --> 01:58:34.575
a Raspberry Pi,
1444
01:58:35.035 --> 01:58:46.335
back end. But I would also wanna what what I what we also made, this proof of concept was that you did also didn't need a Raspberry Pi because That's even better. Right. If you wanna onboard someone to Bisq in a bar,
1445
01:58:46.715 --> 01:58:50.895
like, at a meetup Right. Like, okay. Install the Bisq app on your phone.
1446
01:58:51.515 --> 01:58:52.175
You know,
1447
01:58:52.555 --> 01:59:23.255
you can fund their first trade for them or something if they give you cash in person. I mean, that's a big trade off of this is that you need sats to buy sats. After you're at a meetup though and you had the mobile apps, that wouldn't be a problem because you could just give cash to someone and, you know, have them Or they could be a friend and just That that too. Right? Load you up some sets for your first trade. Or if there's a Bitcoin ATM at the meetup. Right? You could buy 8 stats on the on the ATM and load them into your business. So there's there's definitely you would wanna be have a a separated back end and front end. Whereas right now, the bisque node is,
1448
01:59:23.795 --> 01:59:27.415
you know, very, very high. Blob. One big blob. Exactly.
1449
01:59:27.890 --> 01:59:30.470
And it's very heavy, and it's very slow. So you'd want it to run
1450
01:59:31.010 --> 01:59:39.945
24 hours a day on your Raspberry Pi just like just like your Bitcoin daemon, just like your Lightning daemon, you want your Bisk daemon to run on your Raspberry Pi 24 hours a day, obviously.
1451
01:59:40.485 --> 01:59:49.800
All your offers should be up all the time, and anybody should be able to take your offers 24 hours a day. Right now, if you close your computer, all those offers disappear, and nobody can take them.
1452
01:59:50.420 --> 01:59:54.100
The second wish list item is that it should be integrated into
1453
02:00:03.880 --> 02:00:10.540
you don't need to keep funds on your Bisc app. You can just keep them in your Moon Wallet or your Zeus Wallet or whatever.
1454
02:00:11.080 --> 02:00:11.580
And
1455
02:00:12.114 --> 02:00:22.190
that way or you could even connect your Trezor to your phone and load them directly from your Trezor into your Bisc app to fund the trade Right. Or the other way around. Right now, Bisc has wallets for every single
1456
02:00:22.730 --> 02:00:25.150
cryptocurrency that they support integrated directly.
1457
02:00:26.250 --> 02:00:27.950
Bisc only supports Bitcoin.
1458
02:00:28.875 --> 02:00:39.590
If you wanna buy if you trade shitcoins on Bisq? So say, for example, you buy Monero on Bisq? Yeah. You need a separate Monero wallet? Correct. Oh, okay. But the the the Bitcoin wallet is built into Bisk. Correct.
1459
02:00:40.450 --> 02:00:45.735
Yeah. And the mediator would have to verify your Monero trade on some Monero block explorer. Right.
1460
02:00:46.935 --> 02:00:52.054
So, yeah, that's a whole another thing. But but yeah. So the so the the trade protocol also could be,
1461
02:00:52.375 --> 02:00:57.930
improved. And this is something they are improving right now with the BISC V2. It's more of a generic contract execution
1462
02:00:58.710 --> 02:01:00.090
thing. So you could agree
1463
02:01:00.795 --> 02:01:03.375
on pretty much anything. Right? You could agree to trade
1464
02:01:03.994 --> 02:01:07.295
dollars for euros is the example they like to use where
1465
02:01:07.914 --> 02:01:11.949
it doesn't even have to be Bitcoin based. It could be lightning. It could be liquid. It could be anything.
1466
02:01:12.570 --> 02:01:24.985
Right? And you just make up whatever arbitrary contract terms you want. Of course, you'd wanna, like, normalize those contracts so that they can be on a or off offer book and and have the market book. Yeah. Market price discovery.
1467
02:01:25.364 --> 02:01:32.330
But I think once you have it running 24 hours a day on a Raspberry Pi with a slick mobile app that's integrated into all the other mobile apps
1468
02:01:32.790 --> 02:01:33.290
and
1469
02:01:34.074 --> 02:01:34.574
arbitrary
1470
02:01:34.875 --> 02:01:35.934
contract terms,
1471
02:01:36.315 --> 02:01:39.755
then you could do DLCs. Right? Like, Chris Stewart at Surebits
1472
02:01:40.155 --> 02:01:48.699
Right. Saw the Bisk offer book. He's like, oh my god. It's exactly what we need for our DLCs because he's figured out the DLC side, but he doesn't have any
1473
02:01:49.000 --> 02:01:57.954
offer book. Right. So if you don't have the order book, there's no like, it it's it's really hard to take advantage of liquidity. It just makes the market completely inefficient.
1474
02:01:58.735 --> 02:01:59.715
Right? And
1475
02:02:00.060 --> 02:02:05.199
so, I mean, so you go you're going back and forth here. I mean, obviously, the easier access point is
1476
02:02:06.619 --> 02:02:07.360
you're running
1477
02:02:07.795 --> 02:02:09.015
the bisque back end
1478
02:02:09.395 --> 02:02:18.440
on a home server, whether that's a Raspberry Pi or something more powerful, and you connect back to it on your phone. That's the very more that's that's that's an easier reach. It's more actionable.
1479
02:02:19.940 --> 02:02:22.520
I mean, we have Mark, you sat in the comments
1480
02:02:23.475 --> 02:02:27.335
saying what the first thought that comes to my mind as well is, like, if it's mobile only
1481
02:02:27.795 --> 02:02:33.040
if it's everything's running on your phone, I mean, you're gonna run into battery issues probably is the main issue. Right? Actually, that's not.
1482
02:02:33.840 --> 02:02:40.340
Zeus Wallet, right, or any wallet app on your phone that doesn't drain the battery. But Zeus is not running 247 on your phone.
1483
02:02:41.015 --> 02:02:41.655
It's just
1484
02:02:42.055 --> 02:02:43.675
it's it's connecting back.
1485
02:02:44.055 --> 02:02:57.620
It doesn't have so there's different threat models. Right. Zeus Zeus, you're running on a home server. You're running your your Lightning and your Bitcoin node, and then Zeus is connecting back to it on demand when it needs to. Right. But take another okay. Take a non, Zeus wallet like,
1486
02:02:58.000 --> 02:03:06.045
I I don't know, Moon Wallet or Phoenix Wallet or something. They all they all have their own trade offs in terms of Oh, so not running 247, though. Right? And with with the Bisk model,
1487
02:03:06.970 --> 02:03:08.430
you need to be running 247
1488
02:03:09.530 --> 02:03:10.030
Not
1489
02:03:10.490 --> 02:03:13.710
necessarily. So there's there's some more technical
1490
02:03:14.090 --> 02:03:15.630
tricks you can do to
1491
02:03:16.744 --> 02:03:18.685
keep your offers live on the network,
1492
02:03:19.465 --> 02:03:44.650
right, without actually having to run a full note all the time. So we're, like, you're, like, broadcasting your offer to peers. The peers are keeping it alive, and then you just need to be online when it's time to process the trade. Is that the thought? Something like that. Right? Where you would get a push notification and then your note wakes up and then actually does the the more heavy lifting. But the reason why Bisc is so heavy on a computer right now is mostly just because it's implemented in Java and because it's using bloom filters and SPV
1493
02:03:45.030 --> 02:03:48.890
Right. To Which most newcomers have no idea what that is. Right. It's just this very
1494
02:03:49.270 --> 02:03:53.415
inefficient well, first of all, Java is very heavy because it's a virtual machine that's, you know,
1495
02:03:53.795 --> 02:03:59.255
inefficient in its own way. But then on top of that, to to make it, like, exponentially more heavy,
1496
02:03:59.670 --> 02:04:03.210
you're processing, like, every block of bit Bitcoin with very heavy,
1497
02:04:03.989 --> 02:04:06.250
computationally expensive bloom filters.
1498
02:04:06.789 --> 02:04:07.530
And so,
1499
02:04:08.565 --> 02:04:12.825
I mean, this is not used by any wallet anymore except this. That's how old it is. So
1500
02:04:13.685 --> 02:04:16.960
if you fix that to use something more modern, Nutrino protocol
1501
02:04:17.360 --> 02:04:18.880
or even Electrum protocol
1502
02:04:19.600 --> 02:04:20.180
I mean,
1503
02:04:20.560 --> 02:04:25.700
it's it's all trade offs. Right? If you have your own Everything is trade offs. Yeah. So you can save battery
1504
02:04:26.215 --> 02:04:28.075
by using somebody else's
1505
02:04:28.775 --> 02:04:36.840
node to use to having lifting. Right? Or you can run your own Raspberry Pi. The key is, like, figuring out a way to implement it in a way that you don't have to be online 24 7 running at 247.
1506
02:04:37.220 --> 02:04:43.080
Correct. But you still want your offers to be live 247. And you don't want censorship risk of a centralized server holding the offers.
1507
02:04:43.755 --> 02:04:54.610
Exactly. There is no centralized server in this, but I'm just saying, like, that would be the easiest way to implement it would be, like, there's a centralized web server that's holding all and that's what RoboSats does. I don't know if you're familiar with RoboSats, but RoboSats
1508
02:04:55.230 --> 02:04:56.850
is an onion only service
1509
02:04:57.469 --> 02:05:02.475
that the centralized server is is holding all is holding the full order book,
1510
02:05:03.655 --> 02:05:10.060
but it's connected through Tor, and you don't need KYC. And the actual orders are p to p, but the order book is centralized.
1511
02:05:10.600 --> 02:05:16.140
It's kinda like a local Bitcoins on tour. Yeah. That's interesting. Lightning only. That's interesting. Yeah.
1512
02:05:16.920 --> 02:05:17.420
Right.
1513
02:05:17.755 --> 02:05:20.494
Yeah. So there's just a 1,000,000 ways Very new. To improve
1514
02:05:21.114 --> 02:05:21.614
this.
1515
02:05:23.114 --> 02:05:30.679
What's that question in the chat? No. No. He's saying what we said, which is moon is not 24 7. A push notification wakes up the app when it Right. Exactly. Yeah.
1516
02:05:30.980 --> 02:05:35.800
And a centralized server is sending the push notification, which is a different trade off, obviously.
1517
02:05:38.635 --> 02:05:40.735
Yeah. Every wallet has its own trade offs.
1518
02:05:41.515 --> 02:05:42.015
Every
1519
02:05:42.395 --> 02:05:43.695
every back end payment.
1520
02:05:44.070 --> 02:05:47.290
Is there anything else on the wish list that you would have for a BISQ alternative?
1521
02:05:47.910 --> 02:05:49.930
Probably remove the BSQ token.
1522
02:05:50.550 --> 02:05:53.945
So let's go into that. So the BSQ token is used for the BISQ DAO.
1523
02:05:54.645 --> 02:06:02.425
Or at least change the way it works because you you So how does it work right now? HD kind of want like, obviously, the founders of the project
1524
02:06:04.010 --> 02:06:06.510
or or maybe I should say the contributors to the project,
1525
02:06:07.449 --> 02:06:12.670
you know, any random new pseudonym can start contributing to BISK, which is great. But you don't
1526
02:06:13.655 --> 02:06:20.760
there's a lot of reasons why they need this, basically, shitcoin token to govern the BiskDAO. Right? Because you need to have, like, for example,
1527
02:06:21.480 --> 02:06:24.300
centralized exchange like Kraken has a corporation
1528
02:06:24.840 --> 02:06:25.579
with shareholders
1529
02:06:26.280 --> 02:06:33.245
and name, like, directors and Like, we saw with Twitter and Elon and stuff. Exactly. It's this huge power struggle. Bureaucracy
1530
02:06:33.945 --> 02:06:35.015
And regulated.
1531
02:06:35.829 --> 02:06:42.010
If you have a company, then that's what you have. But what does Bisc have? Bisc cannot have because Bisc cannot be a company because
1532
02:06:42.605 --> 02:06:50.000
then the governments of the world could go to Bisk and say you need a KYC. Like they did with Bitmax. They could arrest the founders. Oh, yeah. And so
1533
02:06:50.720 --> 02:07:00.435
jail. Bisk arguably needs a DAO and a governance. This is like the one legit use of a governance token. Right? There's 9,000 shitcoin scams out there that all have their own tokens.
1534
02:07:00.815 --> 02:07:02.114
But the purpose of those
1535
02:07:02.574 --> 02:07:03.875
tokens is just to
1536
02:07:04.230 --> 02:07:13.050
pump pump bags and numbers. The founders. Exactly. But with this, you you know, the contributors actually need it to, like, manage the network for censorship resistance.
1537
02:07:13.505 --> 02:07:14.005
And
1538
02:07:15.105 --> 02:07:16.965
it works well when
1539
02:07:17.345 --> 02:07:19.365
So it's 1 BSQ, 1 vote.
1540
02:07:20.145 --> 02:07:22.885
Correct. So it works well when you make a contribution
1541
02:07:23.330 --> 02:07:25.430
to to bisque, the open source project. And
1542
02:07:26.130 --> 02:07:29.750
as a reward for your contributions, you get some BSQ token,
1543
02:07:30.050 --> 02:07:32.870
and then you can vote on important,
1544
02:07:33.645 --> 02:07:37.905
proposals or, you know, should should we change the fees, or should we change the
1545
02:07:38.365 --> 02:07:44.130
the whatever? Should we list this new shit coin, or should we tell them to fuck off? You know, like, all of the really important proposals,
1546
02:07:44.590 --> 02:07:53.165
that's when your voting rights come in. And the more contributions you make to the project, the more votes you get, which is a really cool system, and it works extremely well. And there's also,
1547
02:07:53.545 --> 02:07:57.705
you know, votes for things like, okay, well, should we should we add Wiz as a,
1548
02:07:58.344 --> 02:08:02.829
price server operator? You know, should we add mempool space as the explorer,
1549
02:08:03.530 --> 02:08:15.380
or should we let mempool project run Biscott Markets website for the DAO? These things are cool because then the contributors like, the more contributions they've made, the more merit they have to weigh in on these important decisions. Right.
1550
02:08:15.860 --> 02:08:17.560
But the problem I feel
1551
02:08:18.420 --> 02:08:19.880
yeah. In my personal opinion,
1552
02:08:20.500 --> 02:08:21.000
it's
1553
02:08:21.780 --> 02:08:26.045
kind of perverts the incentives of the project. Like, the minute you have a token,
1554
02:08:26.505 --> 02:08:35.540
now the incentives of the contributors is to pump their bags. Right. They want the token to they're getting paid in the token. They're holding the token. Exactly. And They want it to increase in value.
1555
02:08:36.080 --> 02:08:38.260
It it works well, I feel, if
1556
02:08:38.655 --> 02:08:42.515
the toke like, the token is only used by the contributors internally
1557
02:08:43.055 --> 02:08:43.295
and
1558
02:08:43.935 --> 02:08:47.475
Or for votes. Right. For voting. Doesn't have monetary value. Exactly.
1559
02:08:47.780 --> 02:08:53.720
Yeah. Something like this. But how can you actually stop that when things like Bisq exist? Couldn't they just trade the tokens for sats?
1560
02:08:54.580 --> 02:08:57.595
Actually, there's something called merit. So even if
1561
02:08:58.455 --> 02:09:08.450
you sell or transfer your tokens to someone else, you still retain the voting rights, and this is to prevent the quote, unquote Roger Ver attack where So you just buys all the best tokens. Exactly. It's proof of stake.
1562
02:09:09.570 --> 02:09:14.915
Makes it p cash by default or whatever. Right. So it's kind of resistant to that attack to some extent.
1563
02:09:15.935 --> 02:09:26.760
And, also, you you know, some contributors just HODL their BSQ tokens. But, yeah, once you once you apply the financial part to the token, it kind of perverts the whole incentives of of everything.
1564
02:09:27.140 --> 02:09:27.960
And so
1565
02:09:28.605 --> 02:09:39.070
if I make a large contribution to Bisq, say, I sponsored the Bitcoin 2021 conference and got a Bisq booth and I used my own fiat to pay for that, Cool. Now I got a bunch of BSQ token.
1566
02:09:39.450 --> 02:09:39.950
And
1567
02:09:41.530 --> 02:09:44.910
that's great until I realized that now I'm incentivized
1568
02:09:45.290 --> 02:09:49.755
to pump this shit coin, essentially. Right? Like You either dump it immediately for sats or
1569
02:09:50.375 --> 02:09:51.675
Yes. You're incentivized
1570
02:09:52.615 --> 02:09:58.810
to pump the price of it. Exactly. And then and then a lot of contributors' time is now
1571
02:09:59.190 --> 02:10:05.370
diverted to how do we pump our bags. Right? How do we make this token go up in price? How do we dump on retail?
1572
02:10:05.815 --> 02:10:08.315
And it's it's it's terrible. And so
1573
02:10:09.175 --> 02:10:19.120
now I now I realized, like, yeah, I just wanna dump this as fast as possible, but I can't help but feel it ruins the project in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I mean, to answer your question about the wish list, I would definitely
1574
02:10:19.740 --> 02:10:21.280
think about changing the
1575
02:10:21.775 --> 02:10:26.114
the economics. So there's really all like, all Shitcoin scams can be boiled down to, like,
1576
02:10:26.735 --> 02:10:28.514
3 steps. Right? 1st, you
1577
02:10:28.950 --> 02:10:32.570
fill your bag, then you pump your bag, then you dump your bag
1578
02:10:32.950 --> 02:10:36.010
on on Right. The normies coming into FOMO in.
1579
02:10:36.310 --> 02:10:37.130
And so
1580
02:10:37.835 --> 02:10:41.375
if if if it's if there's, like, a Howie test for a security,
1581
02:10:41.994 --> 02:10:57.205
like, the wiz test for a shitcoin coin. Is, like, are they filling their bags with some kind of pre mine or issuing tokens? Which this was fully pre mine. The founders have the majority of it, I presume. I mean, you'd have to do some blockchain analysis to figure that out? Like gut wise, probably.
1582
02:10:57.905 --> 02:11:01.960
I mean, there's so many students now. I have no idea. It could be.
1583
02:11:02.440 --> 02:11:02.940
And
1584
02:11:03.560 --> 02:11:12.465
and if they did yeah. But it well, you well, you're right. It was premined. So they had them all in the beginning. Yeah. But What are the can we can we go through the mechanics of the BSQ token? So,
1585
02:11:15.244 --> 02:11:19.505
so trading fees on Bisk, you can pay with the BSQ token or Sats.
1586
02:11:20.679 --> 02:11:32.125
Yes. And I and I suggest you to pay in Sats and not participate. Well, the idea is that if you're a contributor, you can then use the BSQ token to pay for your trading fees. Right? So then
1587
02:11:32.425 --> 02:11:33.565
when when a contributor
1588
02:11:33.945 --> 02:11:34.925
receives BSQ,
1589
02:11:35.785 --> 02:11:37.565
is that newly minted BSQ?
1590
02:11:39.260 --> 02:11:46.400
Does it get created out of thin air? They're essentially They're losing it. Them. They're they're basically coloring their own sats into colored Bitcoin
1591
02:11:47.245 --> 02:11:49.585
with the DAO's consent and approval.
1592
02:11:50.205 --> 02:11:51.905
So when you do some
1593
02:11:52.445 --> 02:11:56.890
contribution of bisque, you then you can go on the DAO and make a compensation request
1594
02:11:57.370 --> 02:12:00.590
to approve your coloring of SATs into BSQ.
1595
02:12:00.970 --> 02:12:06.875
And then so then okay. So, obviously, if you pay your trading fees with BSQ that goes into this
1596
02:12:07.275 --> 02:12:07.775
treasury.
1597
02:12:08.075 --> 02:12:11.215
Right? Right. That can then get distributed for projects?
1598
02:12:12.235 --> 02:12:12.735
So
1599
02:12:13.275 --> 02:12:14.335
there's essentially
1600
02:12:14.795 --> 02:12:28.845
a role called the Burning Man who takes all the Bitcoin revenue of Bisk and goes on the market and buys BSQ and burns it. And I think Oh, is that what's happening? And when you pay stats when you pay stats, it's essentially pumping the BSQ price?
1601
02:12:29.225 --> 02:12:31.485
Right. And so if it were balanced
1602
02:12:32.300 --> 02:12:39.119
and the amount of BSQ issued and the amount of BSQ burned was equal or the supply even decreasing,
1603
02:12:39.579 --> 02:12:40.960
then it would work. Right?
1604
02:12:42.215 --> 02:12:43.355
But in practice,
1605
02:12:44.534 --> 02:12:47.755
people can't resist the urge to print tokens. And, also,
1606
02:12:48.375 --> 02:13:05.525
some more BSQ is getting created than is being collected in trading fees, whether that's directly as BSQ or as Sats that get burned that get I mean, it's very buy BSQ and then burn it. Like, some sometimes this is quote unquote profitable when the supply goes down, and sometimes they're not, and they inflate the supply. And that's
1607
02:13:06.170 --> 02:13:14.110
okay for a company to issue more shares or redeem more shares. This happens all the time. But I think, again, going back to the 3 step test,
1608
02:13:15.185 --> 02:13:18.885
are the are the founders are the contributors to the project now
1609
02:13:20.065 --> 02:13:20.565
distracted
1610
02:13:21.665 --> 02:13:23.845
with the incentive to pump their bags?
1611
02:13:24.360 --> 02:13:42.304
Right. And this ruins the project in a lot of ways I feel. Right? Like, with mempool, obviously, we don't have any mempool token. We don't need a mempool token. We just have a Bitcoin treasury for our expenses and to pay salaries and and, you know, data center bills and everything, and it works extremely well. And if Bisk had simply set up a Bitcoin treasury
1612
02:13:42.690 --> 02:13:45.030
6 or 7 years ago when the project started,
1613
02:13:45.409 --> 02:13:45.909
then
1614
02:13:46.290 --> 02:13:53.285
they would be super, super wealthy now. Right? Right. I mean, 6 or 7 years ago, the price was, like, what, $100 in 2013.
1615
02:13:53.905 --> 02:14:10.895
You know, all think about all the donations they got. I mean, I feel like you can do all of this except for the voting, which is Saks. Right? Like, you collect your trading fees in sats. You hold the treasury in sats. You pay out contributors in sats. Yes. And and I and I think the the thought at the time was that
1616
02:14:11.275 --> 02:14:13.455
if you have a Bitcoin treasury,
1617
02:14:14.640 --> 02:14:16.420
then whoever controls that treasury
1618
02:14:16.880 --> 02:14:24.420
is like a target. Point of failure. Exactly. I mean, they are. But this still exists anyway with the Shitcoin too. Right. Right? So
1619
02:14:24.945 --> 02:14:29.185
I think The ShitCoin doesn't really solve that, but it solves the No. But I think the voting
1620
02:14:31.590 --> 02:14:38.969
right. So so you need the So you make a voting token. That's own voting. You can't use it for anything else, and it can't be tracked. Like, once you
1621
02:14:39.685 --> 02:14:46.985
get those voting rights, like, you can't You can't sell them. Yeah. And then if you block sending. And then if you
1622
02:14:47.525 --> 02:14:49.225
whenever someone pays their
1623
02:14:49.690 --> 02:14:51.310
trading fee revenue to Bisk,
1624
02:14:52.010 --> 02:14:52.510
that,
1625
02:14:53.770 --> 02:14:54.270
UTXO
1626
02:14:54.650 --> 02:15:20.065
should get, like, randomly distributed to the to the BSQ holders somehow. And there's there's clever ways to do this with because BSQs are already built on top of Bitcoin. So Right. Pretend I have Every every BSQ token has a Bitcoin address associated with it. You could technically just send it to one of those Bitcoin addresses. Exactly. Right. So now you see where it goes. Now, like So now you're paying out Sats dividends to to the contributors. And then the the token is just a voting token. Right. That's that's
1627
02:15:20.365 --> 02:15:44.310
that's one thing I feel That's pretty cool. Would improve the project quite a bit because then the contributors are longer distracted with the incentive to pump their bags. They wanna pump stats. They wanna pump stats. I mean, this is how it's supposed to work where all of our incentives are supposed to be aligned. We're not supposed to have a shit coin that we wanna pump. Right? Right. This is why the mempool project is so successful. We got all these donations and sats, and then Bitcoin goes up in price, and now we have more money to
1628
02:15:46.310 --> 02:15:48.410
Right. And operations of the site. So
1629
02:15:48.950 --> 02:15:53.210
yeah. This has Awesome. This has an agent code base. This has
1630
02:15:53.985 --> 02:15:58.885
a lot of technical debt. This has this tokenomics thing, which I think they need to fix.
1631
02:15:59.344 --> 02:16:00.965
But if it did get reimplemented
1632
02:16:01.460 --> 02:16:07.640
with the mobile app and the Raspberry Pi back end daemon that runs 24 hours and they fix this token thing to not be
1633
02:16:08.260 --> 02:16:24.110
incentivized. But they have an incentive never to fix that token. Exactly. Right. Right. Right? Now now that all these contributors are bag holders, they're not gonna like Even the contributors, not only do the founders have an incentive, even the contributors have an incentive. Exactly. It's typical shit coinomics where now everyone's part of the scam,
1634
02:16:24.570 --> 02:16:25.070
and
1635
02:16:25.449 --> 02:16:28.670
even I felt like this is fucking when you dumped on retail?
1636
02:16:29.475 --> 02:16:32.375
No. I sold it to the burning man, and then he burned the BSQ.
1637
02:16:33.635 --> 02:16:46.045
But you're you're incentivized to pump the bags. Right? Oh, you sold it to the Burning Man, but it doesn't matter because it's a liquid market. So it's retail somewhere about it. Right. So that's the that's the unethical part I feel about it. Right? Right. Is that
1638
02:16:46.525 --> 02:16:49.505
people are speculating on these BSQ tokens,
1639
02:16:50.125 --> 02:16:52.145
and the contributors want to
1640
02:16:52.525 --> 02:16:55.104
pump the price so that they can dump at a higher valuation.
1641
02:16:56.399 --> 02:17:00.020
And it just ruins the project. Right? Well, if the incentive was,
1642
02:17:00.880 --> 02:17:03.859
if more people use this, you know, KYC
1643
02:17:04.605 --> 02:17:07.905
free distributed service, you get higher trading revenues,
1644
02:17:08.686 --> 02:17:11.025
everyone wins, and they get paid in stats.
1645
02:17:11.660 --> 02:17:21.200
Yeah. I mean, I I love this. I I think we should all use it, but it can be it's just an old project that can be improved in a lot of ways. And No. I think this is very productive. I appreciate the
1646
02:17:22.285 --> 02:17:22.785
candor.
1647
02:17:24.605 --> 02:17:26.865
So, I mean, we're 2 hours and 20 minutes in.
1648
02:17:27.485 --> 02:17:27.806
I,
1649
02:17:29.149 --> 02:17:32.290
and this is a little bit I mean, this is completely unrelated to Bitcoin,
1650
02:17:33.310 --> 02:17:33.810
but,
1651
02:17:35.070 --> 02:17:37.649
you bought me and my lady a beautiful record
1652
02:17:39.525 --> 02:17:42.745
player, and, you set it up for us. You wanna talk a little bit
1653
02:17:43.285 --> 02:17:46.085
about your your love for panels? Or
1654
02:17:48.610 --> 02:17:52.390
Yeah. I guess I'm in infrastructure. He was in people think Wiz was
1655
02:17:52.690 --> 02:17:58.075
was born to run ISPs. I mean, he's running 2 ISPs right now. But if you watch them with a vinyl player,
1656
02:17:59.016 --> 02:18:01.115
you'd think of completely different ways.
1657
02:18:01.895 --> 02:18:04.260
Yeah. It's so low tech and analog. I
1658
02:18:04.960 --> 02:18:12.340
You're like a kid in a candy shop. I mean, it's a whole new world. Living room. It's a whole yeah. I mean, it's a it's like a rabbit hole, right, in itself.
1659
02:18:12.875 --> 02:18:16.095
And, I live in Japan, so I have access to,
1660
02:18:16.795 --> 02:18:18.575
you know, 40 year old vintage,
1661
02:18:19.515 --> 02:18:24.580
but still mint condition vinyl record players from the, Yahoo Auction Market in Japan.
1662
02:18:25.120 --> 02:18:26.500
And first, I bought
1663
02:18:27.095 --> 02:18:33.755
this vinyl record player for Matt, and I opened it up in my office in Japan. I'm like, I am keeping this. I'm buying a second one.
1664
02:18:34.280 --> 02:18:43.820
And, you know, it's just this rabbit hole you go down. You have sister players. He's got one in Japan, and I got one here. Right. So we just set up one in Matt's house. And, yeah, it's
1665
02:18:45.145 --> 02:18:47.545
it's beautiful when you get it all put together and,
1666
02:18:49.145 --> 02:18:55.680
what was it? Biggie? We were Yeah. We were listening to Biggie. Let's fucking go and Bob Marley. Yeah. It was fucking it was banging.
1667
02:18:56.380 --> 02:19:01.735
Yeah. And and it's such a rabbit hole. Right? Because even if you're into, like, high-tech infrastructure,
1668
02:19:02.274 --> 02:19:05.175
like servers and networks and ISP and cryptography,
1669
02:19:05.635 --> 02:19:07.335
it's so nice to
1670
02:19:08.230 --> 02:19:12.011
forget all that and play with a vinyl record player, which has no
1671
02:19:12.870 --> 02:19:16.170
microchips in it. Right? It's, like, a 100% analog.
1672
02:19:16.595 --> 02:19:22.435
Just pure magic. Just pure magic. I mean, if you put your ear close enough to the stylus, you can actually hear the
1673
02:19:23.770 --> 02:19:24.510
We did that.
1674
02:19:25.290 --> 02:19:27.210
Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, this is,
1675
02:19:27.931 --> 02:19:29.950
your first show on dispatch to
1676
02:19:30.330 --> 02:19:31.630
consider getting a
1677
02:19:32.525 --> 02:19:39.460
old school record player that will last It's a very low time preference like device. Don't go out and buy a
1678
02:19:40.500 --> 02:19:54.885
plastic you want. Yeah. Wiz didn't Wiz didn't mention it yet, but don't don't go and buy a piece of shit. I mean, you can go to, like, some retail store like Best Buy and get a new vinyl record player for, like, 2, $300, and it's plasticky and
1679
02:19:55.300 --> 02:19:55.800
probably
1680
02:19:56.260 --> 02:19:58.600
terrible quality and it'll break in a few years
1681
02:19:59.060 --> 02:20:02.155
versus the one that that Matt and I have is over 40 years
1682
02:20:03.115 --> 02:20:07.775
old. And it was built in So crazy. The peak of that, you know, format.
1683
02:20:08.155 --> 02:20:18.150
And still bangs. And, yeah, it sounds amazing 40 years later. Like, they don't build a like that anymore. Well, anyway, Wiz, I appreciate the gift, and it was honestly humbled one of the best gifts I've ever gotten.
1684
02:20:18.864 --> 02:20:21.364
I know my lady is super excited about it, and,
1685
02:20:22.305 --> 02:20:34.460
you probably cost us a lot of sats and time because it's just the beginning of the rabbit hole, and I'm just gonna just gonna be a sats pit, big money pit. But, I'm very excited to go down it and go down it with you. You know, we're gonna basically
1686
02:20:35.375 --> 02:20:41.476
both that same player, different continents across the world, going down the rabbit hole at the same time, which is pretty fucking powerful.
1687
02:20:42.910 --> 02:20:48.450
So, I mean, as you know, I've you've been on the show multiple times. I like to wrap it up with final thoughts.
1688
02:20:50.686 --> 02:20:52.785
What final thoughts do you have for the freaks today?
1689
02:20:54.525 --> 02:21:02.811
Bitcoin is growing so fast, and to to see that Miami conference or even the Nashville meetup now is so huge. And,
1690
02:21:03.750 --> 02:21:14.365
you know, you have entire countries adopting it, and and you're gonna be able to use it all over at the grocery store, everything. I mean, this is it's like nothing we've ever even dreamed about just a few years ago. Right?
1691
02:21:14.960 --> 02:21:18.979
I it'll be so exciting to see how Bitcoin continues to evolve and grow
1692
02:21:19.920 --> 02:21:26.215
and and, how it will improve. And it happens so quickly. People feel Bitcoin is is so slow, but, really, in just a few years,
1693
02:21:26.755 --> 02:21:30.840
it's it's taken off so much just since last Miami. Right? 1 year ago, not even.
1694
02:21:31.320 --> 02:21:35.740
I mean, the the size of the conference alone doubled in size. Amazing. Yeah.
1695
02:21:36.920 --> 02:21:42.975
Things are moving fast. I know they feel like they're moving slow, but they're moving fast and slow at the same time, I guess, but
1696
02:21:43.595 --> 02:21:45.695
it's pretty crazy watching the whole thing.
1697
02:21:46.715 --> 02:21:53.460
I think the coolest thing though is you can go as a the coolest thing about being a Bitcoin, you can go anywhere in the whole world, and you have family.
1698
02:21:53.761 --> 02:21:54.261
Yes.
1699
02:21:54.641 --> 02:21:58.261
You know? That's what people miss when they like, it's great, I think,
1700
02:21:58.815 --> 02:22:02.675
that these events have, you know, free access to the content online.
1701
02:22:04.815 --> 02:22:12.780
But the really powerful thing is just is just meeting Bitcoiners, spending time with Bitcoiners, and having online conversations that are not recorded, and,
1702
02:22:14.280 --> 02:22:17.335
bouncing ideas off each other is just being super super powerful.
1703
02:22:18.835 --> 02:22:21.814
And, I know it can be a little bit scary and
1704
02:22:22.835 --> 02:22:23.335
overwhelming,
1705
02:22:24.920 --> 02:22:31.580
but, you know, you don't have to give up that much. And you should be careful to a degree in terms of theft and privacy, but,
1706
02:22:34.225 --> 02:22:35.765
like, go to a local meetup
1707
02:22:36.385 --> 02:22:37.765
or, you know, just,
1708
02:22:38.065 --> 02:22:49.215
you know, meet people, talk to people, talk to like minded individuals. Because at the end of the day, open source code is extremely powerful, but it's only as powerful as as the individuals that choose to run it and build it and support it.
1709
02:22:50.895 --> 02:22:54.755
And if you don't have a meetup, consider starting a meetup, you know, and it doesn't have to be
1710
02:22:55.215 --> 02:22:58.035
super high production value. You guys can just meet in a bar,
1711
02:22:59.120 --> 02:23:06.900
and drink some beers and drink some whiskey and take it from there and do something more significant in the future. But I would say that, especially
1712
02:23:08.205 --> 02:23:09.425
for for developers,
1713
02:23:11.565 --> 02:23:14.785
like, one of the single most powerful things you can do
1714
02:23:15.500 --> 02:23:19.760
is is meet people in your local community, work together with them, build circular economies,
1715
02:23:20.220 --> 02:23:24.479
build local Bitcoin grassroots, Bitcoin economies is extremely, extremely powerful.
1716
02:23:24.845 --> 02:23:30.625
And one of the things I think a lot of people miss with the story of El Salvador is the story to me of El Salvador is not a story
1717
02:23:31.244 --> 02:23:41.790
of a president deciding top down that he was gonna make Bitcoin legal tender in this country. The story is a group of like minded individuals that started a grassroots local Bitcoin economy
1718
02:23:42.226 --> 02:23:50.886
that grew to the point that he couldn't ignore it anymore. He had a choice. Right? You either embrace it or fight it, and he chose to embrace it. So if you're out there and you're thinking about it,
1719
02:23:52.439 --> 02:23:56.300
you know, every every person you work with, every merchant you onboard,
1720
02:23:56.920 --> 02:23:59.660
every meetup you attend really does make a difference.
1721
02:24:00.266 --> 02:24:05.165
Our good friend, 6102 Bitcoin, who's still out there even though he's quiet on Twitter,
1722
02:24:05.625 --> 02:24:08.365
has a meetup website at bitcoin dashonly.com/
1723
02:24:10.250 --> 02:24:10.750
meetups.
1724
02:24:11.930 --> 02:24:16.750
You can see if there's one in your area. And like I said, if there isn't one, consider starting one.
1725
02:24:18.095 --> 02:24:19.155
Talking about 6102,
1726
02:24:19.695 --> 02:24:22.835
you know, I'm probably not long for the Twitter world myself.
1727
02:24:24.255 --> 02:24:27.235
So if you are a freak out there, consider joining our our
1728
02:24:27.561 --> 02:24:30.860
fantastic matrix chat, which I will show one more time. You go to silodispatch.com
1729
02:24:31.960 --> 02:24:33.500
and click that silo chat.
1730
02:24:34.601 --> 02:24:41.125
I love you freaks. You guys keep me going. I think together, we we we can win, we will win,
1731
02:24:41.585 --> 02:24:45.045
but it's gonna be it's not gonna be easy.
1732
02:24:45.561 --> 02:24:50.940
Personal responsibility is never the easier path. I appreciate all you who continue to support the show,
1733
02:24:51.320 --> 02:24:53.340
whether that's financially via SATS,
1734
02:24:54.806 --> 02:25:04.011
or by just sharing it with your friends and family. And once again, a reminder that CIL dispatch is available on all podcast apps. All you have to do is search CIL dispatch, and reviews do help.
1735
02:25:04.391 --> 02:25:05.610
They do make a difference.
1736
02:25:06.311 --> 02:25:09.130
So with all that said, I wanna thank Wiz. I wanna thank the freaks,
1737
02:25:09.670 --> 02:25:12.090
and, we'll see you next week. Cheers, guys.
1738
02:29:13.670 --> 02:29:16.330
But they just can't kill the beast.
1739
02:32:07.926 --> 02:32:08.825
Love you, freaks.
1740
02:32:09.285 --> 02:32:11.065
Stay humble. Stack stats.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:26:00 PM
Duration: 9132.591
Channels: 1
1
00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:01.939
2
00:00:02.800 --> 00:00:05.140
new technology has raised the possibility
3
00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:07.620
of reduced alliance reliance
4
00:00:08.545 --> 00:00:09.285
on centralized
5
00:00:09.985 --> 00:00:10.485
intermediaries,
6
00:00:11.105 --> 00:00:12.005
like banks
7
00:00:12.305 --> 00:00:13.685
and credit card companies.
8
00:00:14.785 --> 00:00:15.605
In 2,008,
9
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:19.140
a person or group of people
10
00:00:19.599 --> 00:00:20.900
using the pseudonym
11
00:00:21.439 --> 00:00:21.939
Satoshi
12
00:00:22.240 --> 00:00:22.740
Nakamoto
13
00:00:23.895 --> 00:00:25.355
proposed a decentralized
14
00:00:26.215 --> 00:00:30.235
peer to peer system for making and processing payments.
15
00:00:31.210 --> 00:00:33.790
A key challenge in digital payments
16
00:00:34.170 --> 00:00:38.190
is to prevent the same assets from being spent twice.
17
00:00:39.175 --> 00:00:39.835
The Bitcoin
18
00:00:40.215 --> 00:00:41.035
white paper
19
00:00:41.415 --> 00:00:44.075
proposed a novel method for validating
20
00:00:44.535 --> 00:00:45.035
transactions
21
00:00:45.975 --> 00:00:47.195
using cryptography
22
00:00:47.975 --> 00:00:51.500
that addressed the so called double spend problem.
23
00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:28.420
24
00:01:28.855 --> 00:01:33.195
It's your boy Odell here for Citadel Dispatch 62.
25
00:01:34.455 --> 00:01:40.370
Citadel Dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin privacy, freedom, and open source software.
26
00:01:40.990 --> 00:01:42.835
We're joined here by
27
00:01:43.155 --> 00:01:46.135
repeat guest Wiz. I will get to him in a moment.
28
00:01:46.915 --> 00:01:50.534
We are both in person. This is gonna be a fun in person rip.
29
00:01:51.460 --> 00:01:53.480
As always, I wanna thank all
30
00:01:54.420 --> 00:02:00.440
the freaks out there for supporting Cielo Dispatch. Cielo Dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.
31
00:02:01.524 --> 00:02:04.024
Without you, I would this show would not be possible.
32
00:02:05.204 --> 00:02:07.545
There are multiple ways you can support dispatch.
33
00:02:08.170 --> 00:02:20.435
You can stream sats to the show using a podcasting 2.0 app. My two favorites are fountain podcasts and Breeze Wallet. They work like regular podcast apps. Load them up with sats. Choose how many sats per minute,
34
00:02:20.815 --> 00:02:22.015
you think dispatch is worth.
35
00:02:22.780 --> 00:02:26.080
And then as you listen, it will stream sats directly to my node.
36
00:02:26.700 --> 00:02:30.239
You can also contribute via BTC pay server located at sidildispatch.com.
37
00:02:32.865 --> 00:02:36.245
Lightning and on chain is accepted, or you can
38
00:02:36.545 --> 00:02:39.890
pay via my BIP 47 payment code, which is located@dispatch.com/contribute.
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If you are tight on stats
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and you still wanna support the show, you can also support us
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by sharing the show with your friends and family,
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clicking the subscribe button in whatever podcasting app you like to use. It's available on every single podcasting app, including Apple Podcasts,
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if you so desire,
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and leaving a review. Reviews do actually help a lot in terms of getting the show,
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you know, better algorithm placement or whatever the fuck they're doing over there.
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Anyway, with all that said, our great intro to this show was,
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treasury secretary Janet Yellen explaining Bitcoin,
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or at least her speechwriter explaining Bitcoin and her reading the words out loud, which was kind of unreal to see. I mean, when
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a lot
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myself included
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Twitter, we thought it might be a deep fake,
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but it turns out real. So momentous occasion, I guess.
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Let's get to our guest. How's it going, Wiz?
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Hey, Matt. It's great to be here.
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So, Wiz, you've been on the show
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Few times now. Was this the 4th time? I think once with Simon,
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once with Adam back, and now it's just you and me. Let's fucking Adam back. It was a fantastic conversation. Did you meet him in Miami?
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Yeah. Miami is fantastic. I guess let's start there.
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with me on the open source stage,
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which if you haven't listened to is available on on YouTube shortly, should be available on bitcoin tv.com.
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All three
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days of content are now live in Bitcoin. Awesome. And it's in this podcast feed. I don't know,
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to the rider or die freaks out there, you might have noticed that I just started posting a lot of content on the podcast feed for you guys to get through.
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Hopefully, you appreciate it.
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I also posted
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not just open source stage content from Bitcoin 2022,
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but
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also my mining panel I did,
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with
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Econo Alchemist, Diverter, coin heated,
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and,
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John, the man behind Futurebit.
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And I posted 2 of my Bitcoin takeover talks, which happened at Bitcoin comments in Austin, one with Mahler's,
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and one with legendary
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Andrew Polstra, which is probably the best interview I've ever done. So if you haven't checked that out, consider going back and listening to it after the fact.
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And I have a spicy lightning conversation
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that I will be posting shortly that,
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was with Lisa, rock star, and Miles Souter. So,
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I I can't deny that. I mean, it was just so fun to be on stage with, Murch and Gloria and,
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Sergei from Good Refill talking about the mempool. All star lineup right there. Well, the best panels are just like
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like right now. We're just friends hanging out, having a good conversation, and, everyone else on the Internet is listening. And that's that's when it's,
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really great discussion.
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with me. There's just a massive team involved. I mean, so many different moving pieces. And, of course, huge thanks to all the
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all the speakers who joined us. Like, we had,
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I mean, it it it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been
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the great content that it was if it wasn't for all the individuals who came out and actually
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make it approachable to a lot of different groups of people. I mean, Bitcoin has there's a lot of subsets of Bitcoiners, and I obviously don't agree with all of them.
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But if if we had to if we had to,
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like or
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agree with all Bitcoiners, then Bitcoin's already failed. Right? The beauty of Bitcoin is that it's for enemies.
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There is there is definitely I mean, look, I mean, we see this with dispatch. Right? So I mean, open source stage,
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if you listen to serial dispatch, was probably,
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pretty familiar to you. It was basically 3 days of civil dispatch.
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But you always see that, like, the flashier stuff, the number go up, price stuff,
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That always gets way more engagement. Right? No matter what across the board, whether that's an in person conference.
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We had the main stage, which was full of, like, announcements
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by big names, and you had the humble open source stage, which was just the open source steps. Like, Evan was killing it up on stage moderating his own, panels and everything. And I just felt like
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that was
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the real Bitcoin energy. I mean, even a few years ago,
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the entire Bitcoin conference was, like, the size of just that room. Right. It was, like, the size of the, like, the open source stage was, like, the size of Bitcoin 2019. How many people The whole thing. How many people would you say fit in that room, like, a 1000 or maybe 2,000 max? Fire code is 2,000. Right. So an entire Bitcoin conference being 2,000 people just a few years ago Right. Kind of pretty crazy pretty crazy to imagine. Now, we have just the open source stage with that much, so that was really cool. And the main stage, jeez, what was that? Like, 10,000 people in there? I think it was 15,000 person capacity.
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That's insane.
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one thing that unfortunately got cut because of budget cuts was
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the live stream,
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of the open source stage.
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And
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do you
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sought out to to fix that. You wanna go into that a little bit?
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realized right away that, oh, no. There's no live stream at the open source stage. And you you tweeted out something like, yeah. Sorry, guys.
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we we got some guys together, some mempool guys, and,
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you know, 1 guy ordered the
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wired Internet connection at the convention center. 1 guy ran to Best Buy to buy, like, a camera, somebody else at the Apple Store to grab, like, a Mac Mini, and I think we rented an 82 inch TV. And,
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yeah. I mean, we had, like, our own pirate livestream going for a while. And To bitcoin tv.com?
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Bitcoin TV studio, also known as,
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Rod's Garage.
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Oh, no.
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Okay. I I guess I'm kinda doxing it right now. Alright, everyone. Rod has a garage. You've you've officially told the world that he has a garage.
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But, yeah, that's that's, that was a cool project. And Bitcoin TV is,
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was was was in a really cool position because YouTube deleted
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the Bitcoin Magazine channel, like, right in the health conference.
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And there's there's just,
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there's theories about why that happened, but no one really knows for sure. But it got restored pretty quickly. Why do you think
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Ricardo Salinas.
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So so, I mean, my focus was open source stage, obviously, was my baby.
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So I spent 95% of my time there. I didn't really get to see any of the main stage talks
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or any of the other stages at all. I mean, there was 5 stages in total.
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And I need to go back and watch them. But supposedly, Ricardo Salinas, who is, I believe, the 2nd richest man in Mexico,
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had a talk where he had
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the what's the Bank of in International Settlements guy? Agustin Carstens,
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Christian Lagarde, the big Okay. Christine Lagarde. Yeah. The big guy, Christine Lagarde, and,
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someone else, and he had, like, demonic,
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like like, demon
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horns coming out. And
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as soon as that went up, the account got nuked. So there there was No warning. There was a theory yeah. There was no warnings. Wow. But it got restored relatively quickly. But that just goes to show, like, you don't wanna have,
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you know, Bitcoin Magazine was heavily reliant on YouTube as a streaming platform. Then they also had Rumble and Twitch.
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Right. But you don't want these central points of failure. And at the very least, just to be able to diversify. Right? So, like, all the content will be available on bitcoin tv.com. We're working with them directly. I think a lot of the videos are already up there,
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Wiz literally, like, went to the Wiz and a couple guys, like, went to the store. They, like, bought a DSLR,
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like, an expensive Canon.
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They used my podcast mic, my travel podcast mic,
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Mac mini, and an Internet connection, and they were able to do the live stream, which was really fucking cool.
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But as I said, all that content is is still available to be watched. And huge shout out to the video team. I mean, I worked with them directly to make sure that they got the open source. Like, the open source videos were on priority because it wasn't live streamed, so it did get up really quickly.
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Okay. So, I mean, I work with you on Bitcoin TV,
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but you're also heavily involved in a lot of other Bitcoin projects,
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including mempool, bisque, and liquid,
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all open source projects.
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So which one should we start discussing first? What do you wanna talk about first? You wanna talk about mempool first? Yeah. Sure. Let's talk about No one gives a shit about liquid.
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So we'll start we'll start with mempool, and then we'll move to Bisc.
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at,
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meetup. At NASH Bitcoiners. At Nashcoiners. Yeah. That was, that was a really cool event. We had about, like, a 100, 200 people there. Usually, we get 200 every month.
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But
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that that that specific meetup, we had
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a tornado watch. So we had, like, a 100, a 110 people there. Yeah. It was storm pretty good. Only the ride or dies came out.
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And, really, only the the extra ride or dies stayed for a drink afterward. Like, a lot of people bolted as as soon as the meetup ended. Yeah. It was it was storming so hard that night. I remember,
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a foot deep of rainwater.
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it was like a 2 minute walk to the car, and I was just completely soaked. It was like I took a bath,
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but that was great. But yeah. So we launched you launched,
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the new mining dashboard, which as as the freaks know,
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we always have we always have mempool space, which is Wiz's mempool,
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up in the background.
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But now they have this mining dashboard. I think I can switch to it. Boom. Switched to it. Thanks.
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If you're watching the video, whether it's the recordings on bitcoin tv.com after the fact or you're watching us live on Twitch or Twitter, twitch.tv/cidlodispatch
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is the best place to watch live.
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You can also watch on Bitcoin TV live, but it's
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you won't get notifications or anything. Oh, yeah. So let's talk about the mining dashboard real quick here. Yeah. So it started last Miami conference. Actually, we had the Biscayne and Pull booth.
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booth location and and, we went all out. We made a bunch of T shirts and everything. But we probably met,
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jeez, maybe 2,000 people at this booth. Like, we just had, huge lines of people,
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you know, coming to to get T shirts and make donations to the project and and talk to us. And one of the,
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one of the groups people that that stopped by was Foundry, the,
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what's what's now the largest mining pool in Bitcoin, but at the time was
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basically zero hash power.
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And, they said, we wanna give you guys a grant,
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support the project, and
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we flew up to New York to meet them there. And,
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they they they essentially asked us said, you know, we'll we'll give you a grant, but we wanna ask you to make, like, more mining related features.
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So we
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researched
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all of the best
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mining dashboards that were out there. And and most mining pools have their own, but they're not open source. Like, Splushpool has a really nice one or Luxor has a very nice one.
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Btc.com
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also had a bunch of charts and stuff. And so I guess we
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just researched all the best ideas and remixed it with our usual mempool space,
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passionate arguments between the guys. And, yeah, over the course of a few months,
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our new developer,
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Capa and and SoftSimon,
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everyone
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I basically locked him in an office for a few weeks and, changed him to the desk and whipped him until the mining dashboard came came out. And, yeah, it was it was great.
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Now you can now you can see all the the historical blockchain data all the way back to the genesis of Bitcoin,
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how mining pools evolved over time, how the difficulty evolved over time, all the typical features you would want if you're interested in mining. So we still have that first mempool dashboard on the home page. But if you click the hammer icon, you get the the mining dashboard, which is optimized for
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not creating transactions, but
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So, like, I just clicked found you. You can actually see their hash rate climb over time and how quick it climbed. Yeah. It's interesting. Clean way of doing it. I also like the
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if you go into the graphs, you can see
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all the pools doms lined up.
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Found you on the bottom. I guess it's linear order of current hash rate, right, from bottom to top.
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So
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and now they're at
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at 21.20%.
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19%.
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Anyway, so so one of the cool things about mempool. So mempool is an open source project, but then mempool dot space, which is this hosted,
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version of the mempool open source project that obviously uses your node, but you can run the mempool open source project using your own node.
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I know it's incorporated in pretty much
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all the major node projects at this point.
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That's correct. Yeah. We have integrations for one click installation on
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Umbrel, RaspiBlitz,
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MyNode, Ronin Dojo, Citadel, NixOS, and now Start not new sounded. Right? Just shipped it a few days ago. Yeah. So
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your own instance of the mempool open source project and monitor your mempool. And then you can you can use your own node with your own mempool.
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the Bitcoin blockchain, because you can verify on your own node. Privacy benefits because any TXIDs
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or addresses that you look up will
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only go to your node. And you also get the censorship resistance in case mental space
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is attacked or or censored off the Internet somehow.
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You don't need to rely on our infrastructure.
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But, of course, if you do
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want to use mempool space, just to quickly check something or maybe you don't have your own Raspberry Pi full node,
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we don't,
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we don't do any, like, long term logging of of,
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user data. We don't share any data with third parties, and it's completely self hosted. So we don't use any hosting companies.
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Whereas, I think, blockchain dot info is hosted on Google Cloud and blockchain dot info is hosted on behind CloudFlare or something. So their trusted third party has a trusted third party. Yes. Well It's literally man in the middle as a service. Right? Yeah. They have all the Cloudflare is. Yeah. I mean, they have all the SSL private keys. They're logging all of your IP addresses with the literally, their service to do that. Yes. And I see why they use it because it's very easy to protect yourself against denial of service attacks if you put yourself behind a trusted third party,
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but you
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the nonexistence
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of logs. You can't prove,
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that they're deleted or they don't exist.
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So whenever someone says they're not logging, just always take it with a grain of salt,
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because
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a lot of times, they are still logging.
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Boomer Uncle Marty can do it on his Raspberry Pi. Right? Just one click and you have your own Exactly. And it's it's,
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yeah. It's pretty cool how far we've come on that. You know? Yeah. That was that was the original goal of the project was to make
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a self hosted explorer because there was no really good,
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like, one click installation Explorer on a Raspberry Pi at that time.
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And so when we started the mempool project,
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just about 3 years ago, maybe longer now,
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it was just a mempool visualizer, the mempool v 1. And that
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was very easy to get up and running, but mempool v 2 with the full block explorer functionality
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took several months of of hard work to get that working. We had to
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wrap, like, make an interface between different back ends on the Raspberry Pi. So it doesn't only use Bitcoin d. It also uses the, Elektris back end,
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Romancy
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Elektris back end. Right. Electromer server. Right. Which is the typical lightweight one that runs on Raspberry Pis very easily.
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And then for a production server like mempool.space,
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we use Blockstream's fork of that. Blockstream Electris has its own REST API.
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And so we had to kinda go back to the Roman c Electris
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and in our own wrap around that, reimplement
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the Blockstream REST API
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so that you could use it on Raspberry Pi as well. And that's when No. That's interesting. Yeah. So we had a bunch of really cool ideas how to make that work on Raspberry Pi. And once it,
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you know,
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became one click installation on Raspberry Pi, it's you you get the full API. So if you go to mempool space and you click on the I think it's like the doc the documentation, the book icon, All of those APIs,
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of course, work on the mempool space site. But if you have your own Raspberry Pi and you do one click installation on mempool, all those APIs will work exactly the same on your own self hosted Memble instance as well. So you can do at,
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address lookups or transaction lookups
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using your own node very, very easily.
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with your own node?
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So it's less performant
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than if we are hitting yours,
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professional server or whatever? It's
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home users.
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So the only real limitation is that the Roman c Electris back end will only support lookups
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on Bitcoin addresses with fewer than 100 transactions.
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So if you're trying to look up a very, very
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popular Bitcoin address,
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that lookup will just
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fail on your Raspberry Pi.
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And, that's not a big deal for most people looking up their own transactions because most people don't reuse addresses. Most wallets shouldn't. Yeah. Right. You should never use reuse reuse addresses, and, most wallets these days are very good about that. I mean,
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HD wallets have been around for a long time now.
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per address.
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So you would not hit that,
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Roman c Electris limit.
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which
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we were running on the site until about, I guess, 2 weeks ago.
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And
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now that Miami is over, we can go back to
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shipping, you know, working on shipping the 2.4
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with the mining dashboard for everyone to Raspberry Pi.
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So I think it's it's it's pretty,
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big project nowadays. I mean, we have total of 8 people,
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working on mempool, and
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we're funded directly by the community.
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We just,
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I guess,
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you know, we we got all the the grants from all the
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the best Bitcoin companies in the space.
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Like, huge thanks to Spiral and Gemini
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and Foundry and Exodus and Unchained and Blockstream of all been very, very gracious. And especially Jack, personally, also,
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probably our biggest supporter,
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First
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and James and Lop actually sent his, donation transaction first, but because Matt had a higher fee, it was confirmed one block before priorities swaps transaction. Yeah. I used a high fee rate on that. So
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once does it you know, Blockchain will show that you were the first to know. Blockchain does not lie.
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you know,
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I forgot to mention at the beginning of the show. As always, if you wanna join our live audience chat, which makes the show special,
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we have a fantastic matrix room,
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which is a distributed messaging protocol
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that is you're able to self host.
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And you can get to that, if you're going to citadel dispatch.com
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and clicking that Citadel chat link. It'll take you there, and just you follow the steps, it's easier to install and run it than you might think.
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And we have a great group of Bitcoiners in there. We have almost 1100 Bitcoiners in there, and we're talking Bitcoin
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distributed systems, privacy, open source software, all sorts of FreedomTech,
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every day of the week, not just when the show's on. But when the show's on, it becomes our live audience chat. So definitely come join us there.
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So, Wiz, we were talking about,
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you know, mempool is an open source project.
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Funding.
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How you deal with funding is is mostly grant based and individual contributor based. How do you look at that? Is that a sustainable method? Is that
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we only have a couple guys taking salary
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from the, the funds of the project,
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it's fine. But one but as the project has grown I mean, now we have very large apps like Cash App sending us all of their users, and we have servers in multiple
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continents,
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is their
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Correct. Is their block explorer. So when, like, you click in details for an address, it opens up mempool.space.
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to see someone use Cash App in the United States and, click on that block explorer button and and see it open up in mempool space.
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I mean, like I said,
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Square and Spiral and Block, they're they're just our huge supporter,
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but it's
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also the open source project. I mean, they just support open source in general. Right. And when you talk about funding, yeah, they they've also been our our biggest fund backer. But but I think, going back to your question,
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you know, now that we have, like, 8 people in the project and we're self hosting our own servers and network
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own ISP.
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We, you know, we own our own IP blocks and we have
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trans peerings with all these tier one providers all over the world now
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just to
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mitigate the risk of of third party
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surveillance and censorship on our website.
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It's become a huge responsibility
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for the community
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to operate this site.
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I'm actually,
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you know, right after this podcast is done, about to get on the plane and fly to another data center and work on some more servers just to
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to
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improve mempool space.
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So as the funding as the expenses of the project grow up, yeah, we we really need to think about how to, keep it going long term
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when
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if, you know, now that we've now that we've gotten so many donations from the community and so many grants from all the enterprise sponsors,
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You know, how do we
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ethically,
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I guess, monetize the site without ruining it so that we can fund the development of the open source project? And I think a lot of projects in the space
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have the same kind of dilemma. Right?
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For example, Evan with, like, Sue Swallet or Right. Any, like,
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great open source projects in the space, they're all thinking the same thing, like,
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you know, you could just put ads on the site and and ruin it. Right? And and that's what Right. All the ads. Right. Exactly. All all the developers started dispatch.
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So,
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yeah, I think I think one,
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business model which might
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be a good fit for mempool space
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someday would be to build, like, a
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player
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2,
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I guess, mempool market or maybe more accurately market for space in the Bitcoin blockchain.
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I mean, right now, the mempool is totally empty, and you can use 1 sat for byte. Mhmm. And it confirms, like, 2 blocks or something immediately. Right? But as we saw last year, when the mempool gets full,
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all of a sudden, we have 9,000 messages
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every day from
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lost newbies. Help me. My transaction is stuck in a mempool. Can you please confirm it? And I think it would be really cool
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if we had a button on the website when you're tracking your transaction
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where you could just pay some sats over lightning,
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and we could have one of our friends at a mining pool manually prioritize your transaction
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and provide a useful service to the community
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391
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in band is, like, when you when you construct a Bitcoin transaction, maybe you go to mempool.space
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to see or your own mempool instance or in the wallet that shows you, like, what different fee rates you can pay to get into a block,
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but it's not exactly a perfect measurement. So then after you send it, if you wanna bump that fee, if you wanna increase that fee, then you can maybe go to mempool.space
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and pay an additional fee that goes to a minor to to get it into a block. Right? Yeah. And I think the the usual,
395
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396
00:30:43.260 --> 00:30:49.600
when I talk about when I bounce the idea off people is, like, well, why wouldn't I just use RBF or Right. CPFP even?
397
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:52.720
And, yeah, you should absolutely use RBF
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or or CPFP if you have to. And,
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usually,
400
00:30:58.125 --> 00:31:01.025
most wallets these days are very good about supporting RBF.
401
00:31:01.390 --> 00:31:10.450
Right. So RBF is replaced by fee. Right. So if you so if you you made a transaction with 10 sats and the mempool spikes up suddenly and now it's buried, you can
402
00:31:10.795 --> 00:31:18.815
replace that transaction by increasing the fee of the of the transaction Right. 20 sats, 30 sats. And then the major trade off there is
403
00:31:19.289 --> 00:31:23.470
404
00:31:24.090 --> 00:31:37.065
405
00:31:37.679 --> 00:31:41.539
So there are some times when you can't use RBF for various reasons.
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And CPFP
407
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child pays for parents
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00:31:45.115 --> 00:31:54.920
is another good way to increase increase the effective rate of a transaction. So this is actually one feature that mempool space has that no other blockage score has is the ability to see the effective
409
00:31:55.300 --> 00:32:04.315
410
00:32:04.695 --> 00:32:07.275
If I then spend that change with a higher fee,
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then a miner is incentivized to mine both transactions
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at the same time. So that effective fee rate of the first transaction
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00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:24.125
needs to include that child transaction. Right? In terms of that's what the effective fee shows on the website. Right? Exactly. And so if you have 2 transactions
414
00:32:24.425 --> 00:32:25.325
415
00:32:25.705 --> 00:32:27.565
number of bytes, same size,
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then the effective fee rate would be the average of those 2 transactions.
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00:32:33.110 --> 00:32:35.610
So Right. If you've made one with 10 sats,
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but now you need to pay 50 sats to get into the net into the next block and you really want it to be confirmed, you could just make you could spend the
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00:32:42.755 --> 00:32:51.520
change somewhere else with a very, very high fee rate, like 200 sats, and then the average would be closer to a 100. Right. And, specifically, with child's pay for child pays for parent,
420
00:32:53.625 --> 00:32:55.485
421
00:32:55.785 --> 00:33:00.845
Bitcoin term, but because most usually, pay parents pay for their children. But,
422
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:29.085
423
00:33:29.465 --> 00:33:31.325
424
00:33:31.865 --> 00:33:32.365
high
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426
00:33:47.795 --> 00:33:50.535
427
00:33:51.475 --> 00:33:54.455
the way I like to think about the mempool is like it's a big,
428
00:33:55.150 --> 00:33:59.410
waiting line. Like, you're trying to get into a restaurant or something, and it's this big line.
429
00:34:00.270 --> 00:34:04.370
In in in the Bitcoin defaults, that line can be 300 megabytes
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00:34:06.815 --> 00:34:16.819
big. And then if if someone's paying a the and then the lowest fee transactions start getting dropped out of that line because they're not paying enough. Right? Right. So if you get outbid
431
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:18.339
432
00:34:18.640 --> 00:34:20.660
that you get bumped out of the line,
433
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:26.695
your transaction will just be in not even in the mempool. It'll just be stuck in your local nodes Right. Mempool.
434
00:34:27.235 --> 00:34:30.935
And your low your local node or wallet will try to rebroadcast it
435
00:34:31.315 --> 00:34:32.215
to the network.
436
00:34:32.890 --> 00:34:35.550
But you have no way of CPFPing
437
00:34:35.930 --> 00:34:39.710
that transaction because the miners don't see the parent. Correct.
438
00:34:40.065 --> 00:34:45.765
And that is a huge problem which, Gloria Zhao has been working very hard to fix in Bitcoin Core.
439
00:34:46.145 --> 00:34:51.170
She's working on this feature called package relay accept, which would which would allow you to broadcast
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00:34:51.950 --> 00:34:54.050
2 transactions together in a package
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00:34:54.430 --> 00:34:54.930
where
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00:34:55.244 --> 00:35:00.065
their effective fee rate is above whatever that limit is. Right. This is a big problem for layer 2,
443
00:35:00.525 --> 00:35:04.605
444
00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:12.370
445
00:35:12.830 --> 00:35:13.330
she
446
00:35:14.305 --> 00:35:25.950
very is working very hard to solve this problem, which is essentially a security hole in Lightning. Right? Where Lightning makes a lots of assumptions about the mempool that you're always gonna be able to
447
00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:27.710
settle a transaction,
448
00:35:28.250 --> 00:35:28.750
within
449
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a certain time frame.
450
00:35:31.585 --> 00:35:38.325
It's just not true. And if we're in the system, there's no guarantee that your transaction will be confirmed. And so
451
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CPFP
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is one way to
453
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:43.000
increase the effective
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00:35:43.620 --> 00:35:44.280
fee rate
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unless the first transaction has such a low fee rate that it is completely rejected and purged.
456
00:35:50.555 --> 00:35:57.750
So she's, working very hard to fix that. And, hopefully, that'll but but this kinda leads us to the the third way to bump a fee transaction,
457
00:35:58.529 --> 00:35:59.349
which would be
458
00:35:59.730 --> 00:36:01.029
the out of band method.
459
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And a few mining pools have done this in the past where you could
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pay them essentially bribe them with a very, very high overpriced,
461
00:36:10.115 --> 00:36:10.615
payment.
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00:36:10.915 --> 00:36:20.080
Usually via credit cards or sometimes through shitcoins. It it is it has not been implemented well. And it was also, like I mean, I remember it in, like, the 2017
463
00:36:20.540 --> 00:36:31.155
464
00:36:32.740 --> 00:36:36.840
But that was pre lightning. Right? So you didn't even have lightning to be able to
465
00:36:37.300 --> 00:36:43.135
accept a Bitcoin out the native Bitcoin out of band payment. So it was either credit cards or shitcoins.
466
00:36:43.755 --> 00:36:54.310
467
00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:57.990
unstuck from the mempool and confirmed into a block quickly.
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So I think that's what
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00:37:00.105 --> 00:37:01.085
the long term,
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goal of the the project will be is to help the community
471
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get their transactions
472
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confirmed.
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And
474
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this is something that should be fixed by Bitcoin Core in the long run,
475
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you know, through the efforts of Gloria and other very, very smart
476
00:37:19.505 --> 00:37:20.565
people working to
477
00:37:20.945 --> 00:37:24.565
make a fair market for everyone where you shouldn't need the service.
478
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But in the meantime,
479
00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:35.605
I guess this is where Mempool Space can come in and and kind of help, you know, just with our friends at different mining pools and and our develop developer resources
480
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to try and,
481
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you know,
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help the community provide a useful service
483
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and charge a a fair,
484
00:37:43.890 --> 00:37:47.109
485
00:37:50.049 --> 00:37:56.305
it's definitely more useful of a service, I imagine, if it's if if it's multiple mining pools instead of just
486
00:37:56.845 --> 00:38:10.155
487
00:38:11.035 --> 00:38:14.255
the owner of of, was it, the fish mining pool,
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489
00:38:19.200 --> 00:38:36.135
490
00:38:36.849 --> 00:38:47.005
and To send 1 Bitcoin. Which is already a massive flex. But just to be just just to be, like, over the top, he also paid zero fee. And then mined it with his own pool. With his own pool. And
491
00:38:47.945 --> 00:38:48.445
492
00:38:49.785 --> 00:38:52.205
493
00:38:52.505 --> 00:38:53.660
and the blocks are
494
00:38:54.220 --> 00:38:54.720
full,
495
00:38:55.339 --> 00:38:58.240
then that's okay. But the minute the pool is congested,
496
00:38:58.859 --> 00:39:00.059
he would have essentially been
497
00:39:01.555 --> 00:39:04.615
basically, by not paying a fee to his own pool,
498
00:39:04.995 --> 00:39:05.735
he's essentially,
499
00:39:06.275 --> 00:39:12.230
I don't wanna use words thing revenue, but he should have paid Sats to the pool to have that transaction. There's an opportunity
500
00:39:13.170 --> 00:39:13.830
501
00:39:14.530 --> 00:39:20.465
if if them pools are full, if mempools are full, he could have mined a different transaction where they would have got paid a fee.
502
00:39:20.925 --> 00:39:30.530
503
00:39:31.165 --> 00:39:34.785
people want to get their transactions manually prioritized to get
504
00:39:35.245 --> 00:39:36.945
confirmed and mined into a block,
505
00:39:37.565 --> 00:39:41.710
then mining pools would now have this problem where, okay. I
506
00:39:42.250 --> 00:39:43.790
prioritize this guy's transaction,
507
00:39:44.490 --> 00:39:51.645
and we took some money for it. They have to be they have to pass that revenue onto the pool, onto the actual miners,
508
00:39:52.105 --> 00:39:56.125
and they have to do this in an auditable and transparent way.
509
00:39:56.809 --> 00:39:58.829
And mempool fixes this because
510
00:39:59.530 --> 00:40:00.030
mempool
511
00:40:00.569 --> 00:40:04.670
it's not exposed on the website yet, but mempool will have the ability to
512
00:40:05.485 --> 00:40:08.865
show a projected mempool block and compare that against
513
00:40:09.245 --> 00:40:10.145
the actual
514
00:40:10.525 --> 00:40:12.145
mined block in the blockchain
515
00:40:12.685 --> 00:40:14.305
and say what transactions
516
00:40:15.309 --> 00:40:17.650
should have been in there or shouldn't have been in there
517
00:40:18.190 --> 00:40:20.049
and what the difference in fees
518
00:40:20.990 --> 00:40:23.010
actually was. And so,
519
00:40:23.375 --> 00:40:26.435
for example, in in the that case of that 9,000
520
00:40:26.815 --> 00:40:28.355
Bitcoin UTXO transaction,
521
00:40:29.055 --> 00:40:33.420
mempoolspace would say, oh, yeah. He should have paid 500 sats fee for that.
522
00:40:36.200 --> 00:40:45.535
It can, you know, make this visible on the website, and then the mining pool or or or we end up doing it would have to, you know, debit this guy's account 500 sats and
523
00:40:46.075 --> 00:40:48.735
credit the account of the pool 500 sats,
524
00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:53.380
and that would make it a more fair system. And it's and it's actually a bigger problem with Stratum v 2,
525
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:56.560
which I'm sure Matt can explain this better than I can, but,
526
00:40:59.536 --> 00:41:00.345
Stratum v 2 allows for all home miners,
527
00:41:00.805 --> 00:41:02.585
528
00:41:03.125 --> 00:41:10.410
one aspect of Stratum v 2. And so right now as it stands, I think that's where you're going with it. Right now, as it stands, the mining pool operator
529
00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:14.569
is constructing the blocks. They're deciding which transactions are in each block.
530
00:41:16.135 --> 00:41:17.115
Even though there's
531
00:41:17.415 --> 00:41:28.099
there's miners located around the world that are maybe using this pool and contributing work to a pool, they don't choose which transactions are in the block. The mining pool operator chooses it.
532
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:31.525
In stratum b 2, part of their proposal
533
00:41:31.825 --> 00:41:32.645
is that,
534
00:41:33.585 --> 00:41:37.925
the miners themselves, all the individual miners themselves can construct the block.
535
00:41:38.640 --> 00:41:40.340
536
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:51.935
doesn't solve the issue of people prioritizing transactions out of band and pocketing the revenue for it. It it just transfers the problem to every home miner can now do this. Right. So
537
00:41:52.315 --> 00:42:07.905
if Matt has a few miners in his garage and he chooses to prioritize my zero fee transaction because you're paying me separately. Right. Cash under the table or however we do it. Sats under the table. Sats under the table, then the pool misses out on that revenue.
538
00:42:08.205 --> 00:42:20.585
539
00:42:22.165 --> 00:42:28.319
540
00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:29.440
prioritization
541
00:42:29.900 --> 00:42:37.325
542
00:42:39.810 --> 00:42:45.270
at least in my head, there seems like there could be some, like, there's just attack factors there of maybe miners
543
00:42:47.455 --> 00:42:51.315
going into other pools and and and trying to basically,
544
00:42:53.215 --> 00:42:59.410
it's like a denial of service. Yeah. Right? Exactly. By just not including any transact like, the extreme is
545
00:42:59.870 --> 00:43:10.925
546
00:43:11.225 --> 00:43:12.285
If we can,
547
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:14.220
using our
548
00:43:14.600 --> 00:43:17.260
dashboard and our projected mempool blocks
549
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:19.020
to calculate
550
00:43:19.560 --> 00:43:20.460
what a miner
551
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:22.540
should have included in the block
552
00:43:22.905 --> 00:43:25.805
and identify rogue transactions that got prioritized,
553
00:43:26.425 --> 00:43:27.725
then the mining pool
554
00:43:28.025 --> 00:43:28.525
operator
555
00:43:28.985 --> 00:43:32.205
is essentially a coordinator for the accounting at this point to say,
556
00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:33.440
Matt prioritized
557
00:43:33.980 --> 00:43:34.720
with transaction,
558
00:43:35.020 --> 00:43:41.839
so we're gonna debit his account by so many sats because we can see that and, you know, verify. You can verify it. Exactly. And everyone
559
00:43:42.305 --> 00:43:46.885
running their own Raspberry Pi at home would also see the same thing on their own self hosted mempool.
560
00:43:47.425 --> 00:43:52.085
So Oh, that's interesting. Right. This this is this is kind of gonna be, like, our attempt
561
00:43:52.529 --> 00:43:54.309
to, contribute to stratumv2
562
00:43:55.250 --> 00:43:59.829
and help fix this accounting issue. And so if a mining pool operator
563
00:44:00.289 --> 00:44:01.430
has this implemented
564
00:44:02.445 --> 00:44:04.785
and they would be able to roll out Stratum v 2
565
00:44:05.325 --> 00:44:09.665
and let home users pick their own transactions and then And they do it in a nonprofitable
566
00:44:10.365 --> 00:44:11.585
567
00:44:12.240 --> 00:44:16.900
568
00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:27.444
in the honest way and pass and pass that revenue onto the pool somehow, however we end up figuring out how to do this, then it would create a new revenue stream for the entire pool.
569
00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:29.450
And so it would incentivize
570
00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:30.970
pools to,
571
00:44:31.670 --> 00:44:37.050
I guess, fix this problem and implement transaction acceleration out of band and just open up the free market
572
00:44:37.465 --> 00:44:39.165
a little bit more for these stuck transactions.
573
00:44:39.545 --> 00:44:41.005
574
00:44:41.465 --> 00:44:44.765
aspects to me is of of the Bitcoin fee market
575
00:44:45.350 --> 00:44:52.090
is that it's it's this truly free market where people are basically bidding on this scarce resource, which is block space,
576
00:44:52.725 --> 00:44:55.865
to get included in the transactions. And as demand goes up,
577
00:44:56.325 --> 00:45:03.160
at any given time, the fee rates that you need go up. And if you're willing to wait, you could pay a lower fee rate. It's this really beautiful free market,
578
00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:09.400
that's available to all and and free like, easily to view and verify and whatnot.
579
00:45:11.695 --> 00:45:12.435
Are there
580
00:45:13.135 --> 00:45:18.675
there this idea of out of band payments has come up a lot in the past. It's not a new concept.
581
00:45:20.330 --> 00:45:22.430
But now, all of a sudden, you're adding another
582
00:45:23.210 --> 00:45:24.750
more opaque variable
583
00:45:25.130 --> 00:45:25.870
to that
584
00:45:26.330 --> 00:45:27.630
to that free market.
585
00:45:28.725 --> 00:45:30.025
I respect that
586
00:45:31.045 --> 00:45:32.345
it seems like your
587
00:45:33.205 --> 00:45:33.705
plan
588
00:45:34.165 --> 00:45:34.985
for mempools
589
00:45:35.450 --> 00:45:40.349
out of band payments is to try and make it more open. But I'm just curious from, like, a Bitcoiners perspective.
590
00:45:43.265 --> 00:45:45.365
Should we be concerned about
591
00:45:47.585 --> 00:45:49.525
out of band payments in general,
592
00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:52.490
you know, fucking with
593
00:45:52.950 --> 00:45:57.450
maybe incentives or fucking with the free market. Right? Like, is there a
594
00:45:57.905 --> 00:46:07.445
595
00:46:07.890 --> 00:46:18.375
we do see this Or your way, Sean, you just call up the engineer and tell him to include the transaction. Exactly. Right. I mean, people already do shenanigans all the time with mining and include random transactions,
596
00:46:19.395 --> 00:46:20.615
nonstandard transactions,
597
00:46:21.155 --> 00:46:25.495
extremely large transactions. I mean, I think there's been some blocks where,
598
00:46:25.850 --> 00:46:28.030
like, an entire 1 megabyte transaction
599
00:46:28.730 --> 00:46:51.940
600
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:52.900
601
00:46:53.365 --> 00:47:03.580
will develop has a has a lot of room to evolve and develop over time. And it's simply because the mempool's been empty for most of Bitcoin's tree. But once the fee market or blockchain space market
602
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:19.900
603
00:47:20.200 --> 00:47:23.339
604
00:47:23.640 --> 00:47:25.935
intended the block subsidy reward to
605
00:47:26.495 --> 00:47:29.555
trend and have down to 0 over the next 100 or so years.
606
00:47:30.015 --> 00:47:30.515
Obviously,
607
00:47:30.975 --> 00:47:34.355
we need this fee market or space market to develop.
608
00:47:35.230 --> 00:47:35.730
And
609
00:47:36.910 --> 00:47:44.735
the way it develops is yet to be seen. Right? I mean, we'll all be dead by the time the by the subsidy gets But there is an argument that, like,
610
00:47:45.855 --> 00:47:47.795
611
00:47:50.015 --> 00:47:52.275
as Bitcoin increases in purchasing power,
612
00:47:53.369 --> 00:47:59.950
so does the purchasing power of that base fee, which is you know, like, you can't pay a transaction that's lower than 1 sapper byte.
613
00:48:01.285 --> 00:48:05.785
614
00:48:06.085 --> 00:48:12.380
as Bitcoin price goes up. Right? There's there's been discussions to reduce the min relay fee
615
00:48:12.680 --> 00:48:15.420
and min fee rate below on SAP for Vite.
616
00:48:16.775 --> 00:48:27.840
Whether that gets adopted or not, I don't know. And and that's another thing that could be done out of band. Right? Because it's only the policy of the peer to peer network Right. That restricts such a low fee transaction from being propagated.
617
00:48:28.380 --> 00:48:35.515
You could just like Wang Chung did. Or even with this this mempool's Exactly. Idea, you can do a 0 fee transaction,
618
00:48:36.455 --> 00:48:37.755
619
00:48:38.375 --> 00:48:45.130
and include an out of band payment with it. That's less than 1 separate byte presumably. Exactly. So I think this could be a really interesting,
620
00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:50.010
621
00:48:50.785 --> 00:48:56.724
if they if they wish to use it. Of course, you should always use RBF or CPFP when you can. You should always use
622
00:48:57.505 --> 00:48:58.885
a accurate fee estimate.
623
00:48:59.220 --> 00:49:01.880
624
00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:07.560
You know, so with Bitcoin on chain fees, it's not how much you're sending that dictates the fee.
625
00:49:07.955 --> 00:49:09.575
It's how much data is
626
00:49:10.035 --> 00:49:11.895
the size of the transaction. So
627
00:49:12.195 --> 00:49:12.355
for
628
00:49:12.995 --> 00:49:23.040
and the the biggest contributor to the data size is is how many UTXOs on that input side when you're combine when you're creating the transaction, how many UTXOs you're using to create it.
629
00:49:23.740 --> 00:49:26.565
But there's situations where, for instance,
630
00:49:27.265 --> 00:49:28.725
a 10 Bitcoin transaction
631
00:49:29.265 --> 00:49:39.819
could be paying a less fee than a 1 Bitcoin transaction because the 1 Bitcoin transaction is larger in size. So it's not data size, so it's not how much you're sending. Now with Lightning,
632
00:49:40.200 --> 00:49:52.520
it's a it's a completely different fee method, which is a percentage based fee, which people are probably more used to in the fiat world, which is this idea that you're paying a percentage on the amount you send.
633
00:49:53.400 --> 00:50:01.020
So this is a key difference in the 2 the 2 fee markets, so the lightning fee market and the on chain fee market. I think it should be interesting to see
634
00:50:01.535 --> 00:50:05.955
how they complement each other and play off of each other as as the networks develop.
635
00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:10.890
One thing I definitely wanna touch on here is
636
00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:12.650
you keep saying the mempool.
637
00:50:13.830 --> 00:50:17.849
The mempool doesn't exist. There's no the mempool. There's a lot of mempools
638
00:50:18.355 --> 00:50:20.855
throughout the world that are hosted by different individuals.
639
00:50:21.795 --> 00:50:28.860
Right? It's kinda funny, but one takeaway I have from Miami is that when a lot of Bitcoiners say the mempool, they mean my mempool.
640
00:50:29.720 --> 00:50:35.204
641
00:50:35.904 --> 00:50:39.765
I guess, really popular, and and all the best wallets and exchanges use it.
642
00:50:40.224 --> 00:50:43.339
And so when they say their transaction is stuck at the mempool,
643
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.099
they usually look on mempool space to to
644
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:48.940
indicate that. But, yeah, everyone
645
00:50:49.240 --> 00:50:51.339
every node has their own mempool, and
646
00:50:52.395 --> 00:50:56.735
you should not trust my mempool or our mempool. You should verify in your own.
647
00:50:58.395 --> 00:51:01.600
648
00:51:02.720 --> 00:51:02.960
still
649
00:51:04.640 --> 00:51:11.875
but, I mean, when we're talking about mempools, we should really be saying mempools, not mempool, and we should say, a mempool, not the mempool even though it sounds weird.
650
00:51:12.895 --> 00:51:14.915
But even if you're using your own mempool
651
00:51:15.295 --> 00:51:18.755
and your own node, there's still a lot of value to have a,
652
00:51:19.470 --> 00:51:22.290
basically, trusted third party mempool that you can
653
00:51:22.670 --> 00:51:29.090
confirm off of and and double check what what your node is showing and see if there's any That's true. Bullshit happening. Right?
654
00:51:29.695 --> 00:51:39.859
655
00:51:40.640 --> 00:51:51.075
So you can theoretically use your own mempool and then confirm against 3 others or something. Yeah. That's a that's an excellent way. And and we've thought about making some kind of federated model for this. But I think in practice,
656
00:51:52.015 --> 00:51:53.875
most people just want, like, a single,
657
00:51:54.415 --> 00:51:59.250
oracle to to quickly check something. And it's actually a very common request from exchanges.
658
00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:01.490
For example, in Exodus Wallet,
659
00:52:02.030 --> 00:52:05.810
they when they sell someone some Bitcoin Closed source wallet. Don't use it. Continue.
660
00:52:06.350 --> 00:52:06.850
Well,
661
00:52:07.305 --> 00:52:14.925
if, say, for example, you're connecting your Trezor to your Exodus wallet, so you're verifying with your own hardware wallet that funds were received.
662
00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:21.410
They actually link to mempool space for that. And the reason they don't want to run their own mempool instance
663
00:52:21.789 --> 00:52:24.609
and do want to link for us is because they are the counterparty
664
00:52:25.095 --> 00:52:27.115
to the transaction. Right. So
665
00:52:27.575 --> 00:52:30.635
mempool space acts as like a neutral third party to
666
00:52:31.174 --> 00:52:31.994
it's like an
667
00:52:32.380 --> 00:52:35.040
668
00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:41.100
669
00:52:41.865 --> 00:52:43.885
but it doesn't have to be if you run your own.
670
00:52:45.065 --> 00:52:46.125
671
00:52:48.185 --> 00:52:52.310
So, I mean, I, yeah, I I look forward to seeing what you guys have in store in terms
672
00:52:53.490 --> 00:52:56.630
of creating a more sustainable open source project. I think,
673
00:52:57.385 --> 00:53:00.045
obviously, that's a major topic of discussion,
674
00:53:01.945 --> 00:53:02.765
on dispatch.
675
00:53:03.305 --> 00:53:05.964
I I I because open source software
676
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:14.060
is the future we wanna see is is a world built on top of open source software and proliferation of open source software
677
00:53:14.475 --> 00:53:17.455
because this code is not controlled by a single company or an individual.
678
00:53:19.435 --> 00:53:20.975
It will outlive all of us.
679
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:22.420
But,
680
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:23.380
historically,
681
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:34.295
funding for open source projects has been a very difficult task, and it is pretty cool that Bitcoin seems to enable certain funding models that didn't exist before because all of a sudden,
682
00:53:34.835 --> 00:53:36.375
these open source operators
683
00:53:36.755 --> 00:53:40.950
are able to accept a global money without a third party,
684
00:53:42.370 --> 00:53:46.870
in a trust minimized way. So because that addition of Bitcoin, all of a sudden,
685
00:53:47.565 --> 00:53:48.305
there's all
686
00:53:48.605 --> 00:53:55.425
these cool different models that are prop popping up where you can still fork the code. You can use the code however you want. You can run it yourself,
687
00:53:56.380 --> 00:54:00.800
but the actual operators and maintainers of the code have some kind of value add service,
688
00:54:02.140 --> 00:54:03.520
that generates Sats.
689
00:54:04.635 --> 00:54:08.734
Is pretty novel and pretty new, and it's really cool watching it all develop. You know?
690
00:54:09.355 --> 00:54:16.340
Yeah. The real power of Bitcoin and open source software together is what makes the project so powerful.
691
00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:18.020
And every
692
00:54:19.105 --> 00:54:26.485
open source project contributes to the ecosystem in its own unique way. Right? Like, you'll have Evan making his Lightning Wallet
693
00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:32.029
694
00:54:32.650 --> 00:54:38.575
use case. But all of them together is is like the cypherpunk arsenal. They all build on top of Bitcoin. And
695
00:54:38.875 --> 00:54:41.375
there's so many companies that will do closed source.
696
00:54:42.315 --> 00:55:00.825
For example, just the mining dashboard. You know, all of the mining dashboards we looked at were all closed source. So by making an open source one, I kind of feel that now nobody needs to reinvent the wheel 10 times. Right. They can just fork yours. Sure. And that's the beauty of open source. Right? And the world runs on top of open source software like this.
697
00:55:01.125 --> 00:55:02.984
698
00:55:03.990 --> 00:55:10.570
the topic of I mean, I apologize to the freaks of the audio quality. It was poor. It was, in person in a warehouse in Miami,
699
00:55:12.755 --> 00:55:14.855
and it just had really bad acoustics
700
00:55:15.235 --> 00:55:16.615
and whatnot. But,
701
00:55:17.235 --> 00:55:22.535
it was a great conversation, especially for those who joined us in person. We had a 100 ride or dive freaks there.
702
00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:28.410
They each paid sats to come, which included drinks, but also helped support
703
00:55:28.789 --> 00:55:32.135
the show and keep it ad free. Talking about one of my favorite topics,
704
00:55:34.215 --> 00:55:34.295
which is open source licenses.
705
00:55:35.815 --> 00:55:39.515
And we had a couple guys on there that are really big on completely
706
00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:43.210
unrestricted open source licenses, like MIT,
707
00:55:44.790 --> 00:55:45.690
or the unlicensed.
708
00:55:46.310 --> 00:55:49.770
I mean, we had Paul on there who's big on that, Evan Kloudis.
709
00:55:50.215 --> 00:55:52.135
I mean, you mentioned Evan was,
710
00:55:53.575 --> 00:55:59.275
in in multiple panels in the open source stage. Like, all the all the rider dies a little bit dispatched gas order.
711
00:56:00.589 --> 00:56:03.170
And we had Tony who also did 2 panels,
712
00:56:04.190 --> 00:56:09.395
and they're all pro MIT guys, and then we had MBK who likes a really nice restricted license.
713
00:56:10.415 --> 00:56:13.955
And then so you guys sit in the middle. You have a GPL license.
714
00:56:14.655 --> 00:56:18.710
715
00:56:19.490 --> 00:56:20.950
it really depends on
716
00:56:21.330 --> 00:56:32.225
what license is the best. I mean, this is this is a whole, like, huge discussion in itself. I think you've had entire episodes, like, 3 hours. Literally, the last one was an entire episode Right. To it. Right. So
717
00:56:32.690 --> 00:56:37.750
favorite topic. Yeah. And, you know, for NVK, he's making hardware. Right? So maybe
718
00:56:38.130 --> 00:56:42.230
the MIT license is not a good fit for his business model, whereas for
719
00:56:43.234 --> 00:56:53.790
some projects like, obviously, Bitcoin Core needs to be MIT licensed because Completely unrestricted. Anyone can do whatever they want with it. Exactly. Because that's a very low level, protocol level building block. Foundational.
720
00:56:54.250 --> 00:56:57.630
Everyone needs Bitcoin Core to use anything with Bitcoin.
721
00:56:58.250 --> 00:57:03.445
And also projects like, Rust Lightning or or LDK by the Foundational.
722
00:57:03.825 --> 00:57:04.325
Right.
723
00:57:05.105 --> 00:57:07.445
Whereas projects like Bisc and Mempool
724
00:57:07.745 --> 00:57:09.525
use a license called the AGPL
725
00:57:10.080 --> 00:57:13.700
or the or, in Mempool's case, you can choose AGPL or GPL.
726
00:57:14.080 --> 00:57:16.000
But the idea is,
727
00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:18.580
I guess, created by Stallman in the eighties.
728
00:57:19.505 --> 00:57:22.724
Decades ago. This guy figured it out that
729
00:57:23.105 --> 00:57:25.444
in order for software to remain free,
730
00:57:26.144 --> 00:57:27.125
it has to
731
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:30.460
accomplish what he coined as the 4 freedoms. And you can go
732
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:40.795
read his his long form essays, and he he's he's written length about it. So I won't try and, do it justice now. But, essentially, the GNU licenses that Stallman pioneered
733
00:57:42.535 --> 00:57:50.210
are much more complex than the MIT license or the BSD license or the unlicensed, which MIT licenses you can just do whatever the hell you want.
734
00:57:50.510 --> 00:57:53.170
It's out there. But the GPL is quite
735
00:57:53.710 --> 00:57:57.615
strict, relatively speaking, saying that if you fork the project,
736
00:57:58.075 --> 00:58:01.295
your changes need to also be free software.
737
00:58:01.835 --> 00:58:03.375
They also need to stay
738
00:58:03.675 --> 00:58:05.055
under the same license.
739
00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:06.860
And so, for example,
740
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:13.340
if you fork Bitcoin Core and you make changes to it or integrate it into your other code, that's
741
00:58:13.724 --> 00:58:15.345
your business and nobody
742
00:58:15.805 --> 00:58:18.704
can say anything about it. But if you fork the mempool project
743
00:58:19.484 --> 00:58:21.265
and you add some feature,
744
00:58:21.849 --> 00:58:24.829
then the Mempool open source project can take those
745
00:58:25.450 --> 00:58:31.095
feature additions that you made and merge it upstream back into the Mempel project. And so
746
00:58:31.635 --> 00:58:34.695
that keeps the free software free. The resulting
747
00:58:35.155 --> 00:58:45.500
748
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:47.420
749
00:58:47.855 --> 00:58:49.075
freedom, is
750
00:58:49.855 --> 00:58:50.355
somewhat
751
00:58:50.655 --> 00:58:51.155
controversial
752
00:58:51.615 --> 00:58:52.914
with large enterprises
753
00:58:53.214 --> 00:58:53.954
like Google.
754
00:58:54.414 --> 00:58:58.820
And I think Square also bans use of the AGPL because the lawyers are,
755
00:58:59.120 --> 00:59:00.180
for whatever reason,
756
00:59:00.560 --> 00:59:14.145
757
00:59:15.390 --> 00:59:22.450
unless you're just completely breaking the law, and this was an argument that was I thought it was really interesting in the last discussion, which is,
758
00:59:22.915 --> 00:59:34.910
ultimately, all of these licenses require a state to to basically enforce them. But unless you're willing to just completely break the law and just keep it closed and just not tell anyone and hope you don't get caught,
759
00:59:36.329 --> 00:59:37.790
using GPL code,
760
00:59:38.235 --> 00:59:39.455
a GPL code,
761
00:59:40.795 --> 00:59:45.535
is is essentially this poison pill where where you need to make everything open with it.
762
00:59:46.230 --> 00:59:50.809
That's a hot topic these days. But so you said Square doesn't like it, but they gave you a grant.
763
00:59:51.109 --> 00:59:52.410
764
00:59:52.789 --> 00:59:54.365
I I mean, we have a dual license.
765
00:59:56.445 --> 01:00:13.020
So you can so even though Square doesn't like AGPL, we also make it available under GPL if you don't like AGPL. It's just that we would prefer AGPL. But they don't really like GPL either. Right? No. I think the lawyers are only paranoid about AGPL. So what's the difference between AGPL and GPL? It's one paragraph in the license, and it basically says if you
766
01:00:13.605 --> 01:00:14.105
make
767
01:00:14.724 --> 01:00:18.505
the service if you make the software if you use a software to run like a website
768
01:00:19.045 --> 01:00:21.385
and that website is available on the Internet,
769
01:00:22.340 --> 01:00:25.000
then you also need to make
770
01:00:25.300 --> 01:00:27.000
the whole stack of that
771
01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:28.040
website
772
01:00:28.580 --> 01:00:32.405
available as open source on this license. And so that's a very,
773
01:00:33.845 --> 01:00:34.345
oversimplified
774
01:00:34.885 --> 01:00:42.599
explanation, but they're worried that so then it's really a poison pill where, like, everything needs to be open. Right. And with GPL, it's
775
01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:43.480
less
776
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:46.819
strict. So, for example, with GPL, you could run
777
01:00:47.855 --> 01:00:57.155
I mean, Linux is GPL version 2. Right? So you can run Linux on the TV here right next to the table, but whatever other software you run on top of Linux
778
01:00:57.750 --> 01:01:03.770
779
01:01:04.150 --> 01:01:06.070
not the dependencies. Exactly. And
780
01:01:06.945 --> 01:01:07.765
yeah, the opposite.
781
01:01:08.145 --> 01:01:10.725
782
01:01:11.105 --> 01:01:11.605
constitutes
783
01:01:11.985 --> 01:01:13.905
the same program and and there's been,
784
01:01:15.100 --> 01:01:16.880
a lot of debate about this. But
785
01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:17.920
AGPL
786
01:01:18.300 --> 01:01:19.280
is much more
787
01:01:19.900 --> 01:01:24.434
poisonous. It's a unique terminology, right, in the sense that it if you used
788
01:01:25.055 --> 01:01:31.234
any other web server software in this, then you would have to make that open source as well. And so mempool
789
01:01:31.930 --> 01:01:33.230
is a application,
790
01:01:33.609 --> 01:01:35.150
not like a protocol layer.
791
01:01:35.530 --> 01:01:41.745
It's a web application that has its own community and and integrations and everything. And because it's a standalone app,
792
01:01:42.525 --> 01:01:48.385
also just like this, we felt the AGPL is the best license for the project, essentially. And if you look at other,
793
01:01:49.240 --> 01:01:51.260
I guess, community projects like PureTube
794
01:01:51.640 --> 01:01:52.380
or Mastodon
795
01:01:53.240 --> 01:01:56.700
or BISC, which has a huge community around it, and they're all standalone
796
01:01:57.105 --> 01:02:00.724
applications, web applications. They all use AGPL. They all came to the same conclusion.
797
01:02:02.065 --> 01:02:02.565
So
798
01:02:03.184 --> 01:02:06.404
Square wouldn't be able to run a Mastodon or a peer tube,
799
01:02:07.130 --> 01:02:09.710
for example, under their Right. Policy.
800
01:02:10.970 --> 01:02:11.710
801
01:02:13.369 --> 01:02:14.670
And then just to
802
01:02:15.455 --> 01:02:18.675
just to think about this in practical terms, so, like, do you know what
803
01:02:19.135 --> 01:02:22.435
what is the open source license for UNIX? Is it MIT?
804
01:02:23.480 --> 01:02:39.690
805
01:02:40.890 --> 01:02:42.510
Yeah. I mean, Linux is GPL
806
01:02:42.810 --> 01:02:43.630
version 2.
807
01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:44.750
Every
808
01:02:45.609 --> 01:02:50.545
OS is so old that they set their license Right. Right. Decades ago. That makes sense.
809
01:02:52.605 --> 01:03:00.369
810
01:03:00.830 --> 01:03:01.890
then in practice,
811
01:03:02.270 --> 01:03:08.295
what could happen is, like, a big tech company can basically just take it, keep it in a closed source stack, make some modifications,
812
01:03:08.755 --> 01:03:10.775
and not share with the rest of the world.
813
01:03:11.155 --> 01:03:13.180
814
01:03:13.660 --> 01:03:14.700
815
01:03:15.180 --> 01:03:17.599
people can build on it in a more free way.
816
01:03:17.900 --> 01:03:19.280
That but that's that's
817
01:03:19.819 --> 01:03:32.000
the back and forth trade off. Right? Yeah. I mean, we could talk about this for hours. There's so many trade offs. There's so many, you know, attack vectors. One of my favorite topics, because it's a very nerd hot hot button issue. Like, people have very strong opinions on it.
818
01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:35.440
It's like arguing about politics, but a lot more fun.
819
01:03:35.900 --> 01:03:39.984
820
01:03:41.244 --> 01:03:48.224
821
01:03:49.790 --> 01:03:51.330
822
01:03:52.190 --> 01:04:05.710
823
01:04:06.190 --> 01:04:13.650
824
01:04:13.985 --> 01:04:18.245
that you can build in just a few minutes with with, I guess, easy to obtain parts
825
01:04:19.025 --> 01:04:20.545
that can essentially receive
826
01:04:21.750 --> 01:04:35.665
was it on chain? It's offline lightning payments. Yes. Like, offline lightning payments. So the device doesn't connect to the Internet at all, but just using math and cryptography. Well, it uses so so the phone that pays is connected to the Internet. Right? So your phone's connected to cell signal,
827
01:04:36.765 --> 01:04:38.545
828
01:04:39.299 --> 01:04:42.520
And then once you pay the ln URL, it shows a PIN.
829
01:04:43.140 --> 01:04:45.880
And if that PIN is the same that the merchant sees,
830
01:04:47.495 --> 01:04:55.195
then you get whatever goods you have. It confirms the payment without the merchant needing to be online. Now people say, okay. Well, why would I need a situation
831
01:04:56.550 --> 01:05:00.730
where the cell phone obviously already has Internet, but the terminal doesn't. Well,
832
01:05:01.510 --> 01:05:04.090
Benarck had a rudimentary vending machine,
833
01:05:05.255 --> 01:05:09.515
and on with the vending machine, it actually has a PIN pad, so you don't need a merchant there.
834
01:05:10.055 --> 01:05:15.880
And after you pay it, you get PIN, you put the PIN in, and then your goods come out of the vending machine. And that makes deployment
835
01:05:16.500 --> 01:05:20.359
way, way easier because all of a sudden, all you need is power for the vending machine.
836
01:05:20.715 --> 01:05:22.815
The vending machine doesn't need Internet access.
837
01:05:23.755 --> 01:05:28.175
Only the payer needs Internet access, so you don't have to pay a subscription for the Internet or whatnot.
838
01:05:28.810 --> 01:05:33.790
839
01:05:34.090 --> 01:05:34.990
Bitcoin lightning,
840
01:05:35.450 --> 01:05:37.310
they don't even have a smartphone.
841
01:05:37.674 --> 01:05:47.055
They just have a piece of paper with a QR code on it. An l n URL? No. Not even an l n URL. They were using a Bitcoin Beach Wallet or whatever? Right. Which is just their username, essentially. Correct. And
842
01:05:47.430 --> 01:05:52.250
the way they would know if you sent them funds or not is they would look at your phone, which is obviously
843
01:05:52.630 --> 01:05:56.330
844
01:05:56.725 --> 01:05:57.545
Right. So
845
01:05:58.565 --> 01:06:06.770
846
01:06:07.070 --> 01:06:13.950
847
01:06:15.085 --> 01:06:18.785
and just to not have all these different lightning payments. I mean,
848
01:06:19.165 --> 01:06:26.600
one of the cool parts about the conference was all light all anything at the conference, including beer and food and whatnot, could be bought with lightning.
849
01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:33.095
But the first day, they were having Wi Fi issues. So lightning payments were failing because
850
01:06:33.395 --> 01:06:38.135
of of just straight up Wi Fi issues, and that got sorted in the next 2 days after that. But,
851
01:06:39.049 --> 01:06:41.390
if you had offline ln POS,
852
01:06:41.930 --> 01:06:47.390
then you wouldn't have to deal with that issue. Now the major trade off right now is not all wallet supports spending to lnurl.
853
01:06:49.595 --> 01:06:50.735
But that's a whole another
854
01:06:52.635 --> 01:06:54.655
whole another rabbit hole. I mean, I remember,
855
01:06:55.195 --> 01:06:56.895
we had mallers in town,
856
01:06:57.810 --> 01:06:58.790
and I excitingly
857
01:06:59.330 --> 01:07:06.630
told them. I was like, we got these POS systems. You can buy beer at this brewer in POS, and he's like, man, are you trolling me? I was like, why?
858
01:07:06.975 --> 01:07:08.575
And he's like, because that one's
859
01:07:10.495 --> 01:07:13.875
at me for not supporting Ellen Ural. He can't pay these terminals.
860
01:07:14.200 --> 01:07:16.620
Was like, nope. Not intentional. Did not realize.
861
01:07:18.200 --> 01:07:18.700
Yeah.
862
01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:22.060
Fuck. Yeah. Awesome.
863
01:07:22.365 --> 01:07:25.185
I had one more question for you. There's a question in the chat,
864
01:07:26.045 --> 01:07:26.865
from Highside
865
01:07:27.645 --> 01:07:35.960
for for you is, how much time do we have before a fee market is necessary to keep up network security? I would guess we have around 10 to 15 years left.
866
01:07:36.405 --> 01:07:45.145
867
01:07:45.579 --> 01:07:47.839
when the market was pumping hard and everyone's
868
01:07:48.619 --> 01:07:50.160
moving money around to
869
01:07:50.619 --> 01:07:59.795
trade on exchanges or bucket shops or whatever they're doing, the fees surged up, and they stayed congested for I think it was, like, six and a half months last year.
870
01:08:00.575 --> 01:08:01.075
So
871
01:08:01.970 --> 01:08:07.830
after the market calmed down a bit, the mempool emptied out, and it's been empty ever since. So
872
01:08:08.690 --> 01:08:11.795
when are we going to see a fee market? I it it won't
873
01:08:12.494 --> 01:08:13.075
be just
874
01:08:13.855 --> 01:08:17.235
here today, gone tomorrow kind of thing. It's it's going something that will continuously
875
01:08:18.440 --> 01:08:19.179
be more
876
01:08:19.559 --> 01:08:20.059
congested
877
01:08:20.360 --> 01:08:30.125
over the next 10 to 15 years until some point where it's mostly full all the time, and then clearing out every day or clearing out every week or clearing out every month will become
878
01:08:30.505 --> 01:08:39.550
879
01:08:40.250 --> 01:08:46.110
I think the conference last year, like, everyone went down to Miami and cleared because people stopped transacting.
880
01:08:47.695 --> 01:08:48.995
Yeah. Like, Bisk traders
881
01:08:49.455 --> 01:08:52.355
would always trade on Sunday for a long time
882
01:08:53.135 --> 01:08:59.050
883
01:09:00.010 --> 01:09:04.030
884
01:09:05.034 --> 01:09:08.974
So those transactions aren't hitting the chain. They're essentially batched transactions,
885
01:09:10.394 --> 01:09:13.614
if you wanna look at it from a Bitcoin macro lens.
886
01:09:15.340 --> 01:09:19.440
And in times of high fees, people might be more likely to switch to a lightning or
887
01:09:20.620 --> 01:09:31.225
maybe even a liquid. But Sure. If you wanna open lightning channel, Sunday's a great day to do it, Sunday night, or when fees are low, unless you want PTLCs, and then we gotta close all our lightning channels to migrate, but that's a whole another.
888
01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:41.780
I think there's another question. Yeah. If the parent I think we answered this. If the parent has been dropped because the fee is below the mempool limit this is from orange surf.
889
01:09:42.195 --> 01:09:51.140
If the parent has been dropped because the fee is below the mempool limit, could the parent not broadcast a new transaction spending the same UTXO with a higher fee without r RBF?
890
01:09:51.620 --> 01:09:53.560
We did not answer that. You would have to
891
01:09:53.860 --> 01:09:56.200
892
01:09:57.300 --> 01:09:58.920
And, yes, I've done that before.
893
01:09:59.780 --> 01:10:03.054
And it and it it's tricky, but it can work. But
894
01:10:03.435 --> 01:10:07.855
you can't you can't just tell, like, your your mom to
895
01:10:08.250 --> 01:10:13.790
896
01:10:14.490 --> 01:10:16.990
and one of the things I look forward to is,
897
01:10:17.765 --> 01:10:23.705
if I look forward to I mean, I still think the jury's out if we're gonna have a sustained high fee market.
898
01:10:33.505 --> 01:10:41.045
And I would just go back to Wizz's previous answer about how long do we need to see fees increase. Because if if purchasing power keeps going up,
899
01:10:42.590 --> 01:10:47.010
and purchasing power keeps increasing, then even though the subsidy is having,
900
01:10:47.390 --> 01:10:47.890
right,
901
01:10:48.270 --> 01:10:50.050
with on a 4 year having cycle,
902
01:10:50.670 --> 01:10:51.490
each subsidy
903
01:10:53.045 --> 01:11:06.020
and purchasing power terms is higher than the previous one. Yeah. Significantly higher to the point where, you know, we have 2,000,000 Bitcoin left to mine. At time of issuance, those 2,000,000 Bitcoin being paid off as a subsidy to miners will
904
01:11:06.880 --> 01:11:08.820
almost most definitely be
905
01:11:09.515 --> 01:11:11.535
higher than the previous 19,000,000.
906
01:11:11.915 --> 01:11:17.775
907
01:11:18.350 --> 01:11:22.610
So if you solve the block Right. It would make, what, 5 grand USD? Right. But now
908
01:11:23.230 --> 01:11:26.370
even though the block reward is halved multiple times to only 6.25,
909
01:11:27.485 --> 01:11:29.665
at the current price, that's about a quarter $1,000,000.
910
01:11:30.125 --> 01:11:36.020
Right. So even though the amount of Bitcoin is much, much less purchasing power of the reward is significantly
911
01:11:36.320 --> 01:11:44.020
912
01:11:44.645 --> 01:11:46.265
So, you know, in situations,
913
01:11:47.205 --> 01:11:56.760
where miners are do not think it's profitable for them to mine, they will pull off their miners, and then the remaining miners will be more profitable. And at the same time, people will be raising their fees
914
01:11:57.220 --> 01:12:00.680
to be included in blocks. So there is a dynamic there
915
01:12:02.445 --> 01:12:07.505
that should make it so it's never unprofitable to mine. It's just who is it profitable for
916
01:12:08.050 --> 01:12:14.790
rather than just across the board being unprofitable to mine by design, by this by this mix of the difficulty adjustment and,
917
01:12:15.465 --> 01:12:17.325
the dynamic fee market. Yeah.
918
01:12:19.705 --> 01:12:20.205
I,
919
01:12:21.865 --> 01:12:23.085
I lost track.
920
01:12:23.650 --> 01:12:26.770
So there was another question, but that previous question
921
01:12:27.170 --> 01:12:27.670
alright.
922
01:12:28.210 --> 01:12:35.415
The point I was trying to make earlier was we haven't seen a high sustained fee market. If we do see a high sustained fee market,
923
01:12:36.915 --> 01:12:46.250
there's going to be a lot of UX and protocol things that change because developers will be focused on that pain point. One of the things we see with Bitcoin
924
01:12:46.630 --> 01:12:48.170
is Bitcoin is robust
925
01:12:48.790 --> 01:12:51.690
because it's, like, almost this open bug bounty program,
926
01:12:52.105 --> 01:13:00.205
but that only happens when the system gets stressed and you see the pain points. And one of the things I talk about a lot with El Salvador is, yes, it's a
927
01:13:00.610 --> 01:13:03.430
it's a country of 6,000,000 people, but
928
01:13:03.890 --> 01:13:11.304
bringing low income 6,000,000 people all onto a Bitcoin standard the same time where they're transacting a lot, all of a sudden exposed a lot of pain points
929
01:13:11.765 --> 01:13:35.230
in day to day transactions where people weren't making that many day to day transactions before. So while developers and protocol developers did not see those pain points, they see the pain points, then they attempt to mitigate the pain points. And it's gonna be the same for sustained high fee market if we see one where there's gonna be all these pain points that emerge that we never really noticed before because we just weren't in that stressed environment. And when that happens,
930
01:13:35.770 --> 01:13:50.675
931
01:13:51.020 --> 01:14:09.255
always tweeting about this. Well, he won that round. Well, but but during that six and a half month stretch last year, I think we trolled him a lot, and then all of a sudden, 1 sapper bite got into the next block, and then now he's been trolling us since. But during that high fee sustained time, he had to transact Bitcoin, and
932
01:14:10.650 --> 01:14:18.670
he, at one point, tweeted he's like, yeah. I guess you have to use 4 or 5 Sats per click or something to get you know? So that was the the point was that
933
01:14:19.175 --> 01:14:22.235
you to to go to your point about the wallets UI changing,
934
01:14:22.855 --> 01:14:27.515
a lot of people made these assumptions, and they coded wallets or exchanges. Like, for example,
935
01:14:27.830 --> 01:14:28.330
Unchained
936
01:14:29.030 --> 01:14:39.075
Capital, when they were doing their transactions, I guess, were using too low of a fee and the the transactions their customers got stuck in the mempool. But these guys are awesome. They called us up and they said, hey. We wanna
937
01:14:39.695 --> 01:14:42.755
sponsor you guys. We just want some help with our, you know, fee estimation.
938
01:14:43.110 --> 01:14:47.369
And so now they're using the mempool space API for their fee estimation, and they always get
939
01:14:47.909 --> 01:14:53.425
in you know, included in the next block. Same with Exodus Wallet. Right? They're using our fee estimation for very, very high
940
01:14:53.885 --> 01:14:57.505
priority transactions, and it works well. Of course, now the mempool's empty.
941
01:14:58.470 --> 01:15:07.530
942
01:15:08.614 --> 01:15:10.555
going forward. Whenever he says the mempool,
943
01:15:12.375 --> 01:15:13.735
mister Wiz over here is,
944
01:15:14.375 --> 01:15:15.755
talking about his mempool.
945
01:15:17.780 --> 01:15:22.120
So I we have another question from Arne Serf. This is one of the earlier questions that I noted,
946
01:15:23.060 --> 01:15:27.595
which I thought was really good. Why would an out of band payment be lower than just paying the miners
947
01:15:28.135 --> 01:15:29.915
in band with the normal fee?
948
01:15:31.735 --> 01:15:32.715
949
01:15:33.335 --> 01:15:33.995
if you
950
01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:40.140
you don't know when the next block is gonna get mined. Right? So Right. If you make a transaction now,
951
01:15:40.840 --> 01:15:41.739
even if you're
952
01:15:42.255 --> 01:15:47.954
using the high priority fee on mempool space, there just might not be any blocks mined for the next 2 hours. It happens.
953
01:15:48.255 --> 01:15:55.770
You know? It's just might variant, variance in mining. And so during that 2 hour period, your The target is 10 minutes, but it can be
954
01:15:56.469 --> 01:16:00.815
955
01:16:01.195 --> 01:16:04.495
956
01:16:05.195 --> 01:16:08.190
and new transactions are surging in so that
957
01:16:08.570 --> 01:16:12.110
your transaction gets more and more and more buried and then eventually purged
958
01:16:12.650 --> 01:16:14.750
in the worst case scenario. So,
959
01:16:15.455 --> 01:16:24.755
sure, if you if you if you get a block bind in 10 minutes later and use the high fee and you didn't get bumped out of that next block, then, yes, you will be confirmed. But quite often,
960
01:16:25.490 --> 01:16:26.230
if you're
961
01:16:27.010 --> 01:16:28.150
trying to estimate
962
01:16:28.850 --> 01:16:29.990
it, what would the
963
01:16:31.090 --> 01:16:46.170
best fee the optimal fee be, It's it's a moving target, and it's hard to hit, and you can't always hit it just Especially when, like, demand is high. Like, if if I've I've been in situations where I, like, I paid on the lower end of a fee, and it just keeps going on me.
964
01:16:46.470 --> 01:17:02.470
965
01:17:02.850 --> 01:17:06.310
With this out of band payment, you pay a lower fee, and then you just
966
01:17:06.905 --> 01:17:09.645
instantly pay whatever the exact market price is
967
01:17:10.184 --> 01:17:10.625
for
968
01:17:11.065 --> 01:17:16.230
Right. To get into a block. Right? So you In that example. Pay the low you you basically pay the lowest you could practically pay to get
969
01:17:24.255 --> 01:17:26.915
970
01:17:27.295 --> 01:17:31.635
what the price was to get into that block at the moment it was mined.
971
01:17:32.270 --> 01:17:41.445
And At the exact moment. The exact moment. Right? Because the the fee market changes so quickly. And then whatever you paid on the fees, even it was too much or too little, we could
972
01:17:41.844 --> 01:17:58.030
credit or debit you the difference, and mining pools could, you know, make these type of agreements with people who create a lot of transactions. For example, there used to be something every day called BitMex o'clock where BitMex would just it was, like, 9 AM EST. Right? Whenever they process all their transactions.
973
01:17:58.489 --> 01:18:01.425
They would just broadcast, like, hilariously unoptimized,
974
01:18:02.525 --> 01:18:13.710
you know, huge multi They literally only did one withdrawal per day, and it was at the same time every day. And it was huge. It was, like, several blocks full. So if you're even in the next block ready to get mined, boom, you're suddenly buried.
975
01:18:14.090 --> 01:18:27.055
And I think they've fixed this maybe a year or so ago, so we don't have bit next clock anymore. But anybody who's watching the mempool remembers this event. And other and and they would they would pay way too much fees. Like, they would pay
976
01:18:27.739 --> 01:18:29.280
1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of sats
977
01:18:29.659 --> 01:18:33.039
more than they had to for, like, a simple relatively,
978
01:18:33.579 --> 01:18:39.515
low fee transaction they could've gotten away with. But just because they wanted their customers to get that money right away confirmed,
979
01:18:40.215 --> 01:18:46.679
they would overpay by quite a bit. And Binance and all the large exchanges typically do the same thing. They overpay
980
01:18:47.460 --> 01:18:51.320
way higher than they need to just to make sure that they get into the next block.
981
01:18:51.860 --> 01:18:52.360
982
01:18:54.015 --> 01:18:56.755
So we have another question. This one from Mark Hughesat.
983
01:18:58.575 --> 01:19:01.170
There are companies that use GPL software, but don't publish
984
01:19:11.385 --> 01:19:12.525
985
01:19:13.145 --> 01:19:30.455
software piracy. Right? If you break the GPL license and you don't publish source code, then you are pirating that free software, ironically. And you would have to catch them just like Hollywood has to catch when you torrent a movie or something. You would have to to somehow find out that they are pirating your software,
986
01:19:30.915 --> 01:19:46.535
which yeah. If they never publish it, then you could never know. But if you're just a home user and you hack on the mempool code on your Raspberry Pi, you know, nobody would ever know about that Or care. Who would care. Or care. Exactly. But there are many cases when the GNU,
987
01:19:46.995 --> 01:19:48.215
the Free Software Foundation
988
01:19:48.755 --> 01:19:50.695
sues a large company like Cisco
989
01:19:51.155 --> 01:20:01.800
because they've decompiled the Cisco operating system and found the new libraries in there and say, yeah. Take them to court where you're violating the GPL, and they would force Cisco to open source
990
01:20:02.100 --> 01:20:14.760
all of their forked libraries. It's really just like a it's it's mostly a threat to, like, rich public tech companies that you have this massive liability if you do it. Right? Exactly. It's to keep the software free
991
01:20:15.380 --> 01:20:21.720
from large enterprises that would otherwise pirate it, basically. Would you would you say that in a perfect world,
992
01:20:23.135 --> 01:20:29.395
there's no such thing as piracy and there's just no enforcement of this stuff, or do you prefer to have the state there to
993
01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:35.140
enforce these things? Well, juicy question. Yeah. That's a deep topic, though.
994
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:41.295
995
01:20:42.075 --> 01:20:44.815
That's why it's a good question. I I think as a cypherpunk,
996
01:20:45.140 --> 01:20:50.340
997
01:20:51.140 --> 01:20:53.160
3 printed guns in the United States.
998
01:20:53.985 --> 01:20:58.325
Obviously, the government doesn't like if people can just print their own guns,
999
01:20:58.785 --> 01:20:59.285
and
1000
01:21:00.625 --> 01:21:04.360
whoever's publishing the 3 d CAD files to print the guns
1001
01:21:05.060 --> 01:21:10.520
can just go to court and play their game and put put on the table, yeah, first amendment, second amendment,
1002
01:21:10.965 --> 01:21:16.025
and they win in court. Just coded speech. Exactly. And so there are instances
1003
01:21:16.405 --> 01:21:18.345
when the most hardcore cypherpunks
1004
01:21:19.100 --> 01:21:23.440
are the ones like Adam Back in the nineties going to the supreme court
1005
01:21:23.820 --> 01:21:24.320
or,
1006
01:21:26.784 --> 01:21:27.505
what was his name?
1007
01:21:29.105 --> 01:21:31.284
Dj b, Daniel j Bernstein.
1008
01:21:32.065 --> 01:21:33.605
They went to the Supreme Court
1009
01:21:33.985 --> 01:21:34.725
and fought
1010
01:21:35.329 --> 01:21:36.150
the US government
1011
01:21:36.530 --> 01:21:37.030
that
1012
01:21:37.570 --> 01:21:42.150
code is you know, there's there's no reason to block people from exporting cryptography
1013
01:21:42.695 --> 01:21:47.435
because code is free speech, and they won. And so so some of the most respected Cypherpunks
1014
01:21:48.455 --> 01:21:59.830
actually use the state's own system against the state and won. Right. And so to say I mean, look at open source. Right. But so there's there's, I mean, there's this I would say there's a strong argument
1015
01:22:00.290 --> 01:22:01.750
1016
01:22:02.195 --> 01:22:09.175
don't disagree with that if if you have these systems that already exist, you know, kind of don't hate the player, hate the game,
1017
01:22:10.830 --> 01:22:13.090
There's a strong argument to use those systems
1018
01:22:13.870 --> 01:22:14.370
to
1019
01:22:15.230 --> 01:22:20.530
basically further our interests and to protect ourselves. But my question is really beyond that.
1020
01:22:22.065 --> 01:22:25.605
Would you prefer that those systems didn't exist in the first place? Right?
1021
01:22:26.465 --> 01:22:27.365
Like, in a
1022
01:22:28.310 --> 01:22:30.810
like, in a post Bitcoin open source world,
1023
01:22:32.470 --> 01:22:36.410
where we're fractured into many independent city states or citadels,
1024
01:22:38.905 --> 01:22:40.844
there there won't be widespread
1025
01:22:41.225 --> 01:22:43.324
easy enforcement of any of this shit.
1026
01:22:43.864 --> 01:22:46.605
I think that's a massive net benefit for everybody.
1027
01:22:48.540 --> 01:22:55.360
The transition might be messy, but I think that's a because everyone can just build on this open infrastructure.
1028
01:22:56.745 --> 01:22:57.645
1029
01:22:58.344 --> 01:23:09.070
free software movement is heavily dependent on the state to enforce that. And so if it did not exist in this hypothetical situation and a post Bitcoin, then all software
1030
01:23:09.690 --> 01:23:20.355
1031
01:23:21.775 --> 01:23:22.835
1032
01:23:23.239 --> 01:23:27.900
a large company to take free software and make it not free.
1033
01:23:28.520 --> 01:23:31.815
And so if we can use the state system
1034
01:23:32.195 --> 01:23:34.775
to keep free software free in the meantime,
1035
01:23:35.795 --> 01:23:36.295
then
1036
01:23:36.915 --> 01:23:47.989
I guess that's the the the world that we live in right now. I mean, obviously, you can go to China and pirate stuff and you won't get in trouble. I mean, it's, like, literally the government strategy. Right? Or Russia too now. Right? They just,
1037
01:23:48.905 --> 01:23:55.725
you know, any any airline jets that were in Russia owned by foreign companies. They're like, no. These are ours now. Right? Right. So
1038
01:23:56.105 --> 01:23:58.045
there are already places where this
1039
01:23:59.050 --> 01:24:02.429
this intellectual property enforcement system does not exist,
1040
01:24:02.969 --> 01:24:06.829
and you have this anarchy of freedom and information.
1041
01:24:07.325 --> 01:24:14.430
And if you go to places in China, they'll print any book you want in a very nice professionally printed hard,
1042
01:24:15.070 --> 01:24:22.210
1043
01:24:24.975 --> 01:24:28.675
you should still be able to figure out some kind of way to sustainably monetize
1044
01:24:29.215 --> 01:24:33.475
1045
01:24:33.860 --> 01:24:40.635
You can't really control the distribution of the source code. Source code is free. I mean, you still see and and you see, like,
1046
01:24:41.355 --> 01:24:46.414
1047
01:24:51.730 --> 01:24:53.510
That they've self published, and
1048
01:24:53.969 --> 01:24:57.775
they've still off of the books because people wanna support the author,
1049
01:24:58.315 --> 01:24:59.535
but also the
1050
01:25:01.515 --> 01:25:04.175
1051
01:25:04.555 --> 01:25:05.375
Right? If
1052
01:25:05.990 --> 01:25:07.370
if you want to
1053
01:25:09.430 --> 01:25:13.345
if you wanna support an artist, you donate. This is how the MEM pool opens
1054
01:25:13.745 --> 01:25:18.965
those project is funded from donations directly from the community. Right. We give away all the
1055
01:25:19.425 --> 01:25:26.440
software for free. The website is totally free with no advertising. It's just a 100% funded by the community based on
1056
01:25:26.740 --> 01:25:30.855
the, you know, the voluntary they're voluntarily donating. They don't have to give us money.
1057
01:25:31.155 --> 01:25:31.655
And
1058
01:25:32.035 --> 01:25:36.295
you're kind of supporting the creators so that they continue
1059
01:25:36.915 --> 01:25:51.605
or you're you're paying for the next version of software. Right? Right. In a way. So And that that it's secure and robust and Right. So so in the future world maintained. Which which are arguably Menpool is already living in. Yeah. We're we're living in this post
1060
01:25:52.145 --> 01:25:52.645
Bitcoinization
1061
01:25:52.945 --> 01:25:54.405
world where everything is volunteerism.
1062
01:25:55.940 --> 01:26:05.639
But it but, you know, at the end of the day, we still have to use this copyright to enforce open source licenses or or trademarks to you know, we don't want
1063
01:26:06.805 --> 01:26:13.545
people stealing our or pirating our logo on T shirts. We wanna make the mempool shirts. Oh, you wanna talk about my favorite Explorer?
1064
01:26:15.550 --> 01:26:16.450
1065
01:26:17.550 --> 01:26:18.210
or some
1066
01:26:18.910 --> 01:26:28.095
1067
01:26:29.595 --> 01:26:33.970
where we have to very politely ask them to not put our logo
1068
01:26:34.670 --> 01:26:37.730
or our profile photos on your website.
1069
01:26:38.590 --> 01:26:39.250
I mean,
1070
01:26:39.710 --> 01:26:43.545
yeah, yeah, typically, if you fork an open source project, you need to call it something else.
1071
01:26:43.925 --> 01:26:44.565
You can't
1072
01:26:44.965 --> 01:26:47.145
1073
01:26:48.085 --> 01:26:50.409
mempool dot space is trademarked.
1074
01:26:50.790 --> 01:26:55.050
1075
01:26:55.670 --> 01:27:01.645
and then we have an open source license that code to make it available for everyone. And just logos are trademarked
1076
01:27:02.665 --> 01:27:05.360
in the United States and and other countries, and then we
1077
01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:09.540
put, like, a open trademark policy on those trademarks so that
1078
01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:13.460
essentially, if you run an unmodified
1079
01:27:13.815 --> 01:27:15.835
copy of the mempool open source project,
1080
01:27:16.295 --> 01:27:21.675
then you're permitted to use the the mempool logo so that everyone knows what that is. But if you fork
1081
01:27:22.160 --> 01:27:29.380
the project and put Dogecoin on there or b cash or or some shitcoin of the week, yeah, you can't put our logo on there because people
1082
01:27:29.835 --> 01:27:45.080
trust that logo to be a Bitcoin Explorer, not a Shitcoin Explorer. Right. The logo is an open source is a brand, not an open source project. Exactly. And and for example, Linux is a registered trademark of Linus. Right? Right. And so if you fork Linux,
1083
01:27:45.735 --> 01:27:49.434
that's one of the ways they monetize the project actually is the the royalties from
1084
01:27:49.815 --> 01:27:53.514
trademark usage. So if you fork Linux and you make Wizz Linux,
1085
01:27:53.860 --> 01:28:01.320
I would have to pay a role to Linus for the use of the trademark, but not for the code because it's open. Right. So if you fork the Linux kernel, you call it something else. Linux.
1086
01:28:01.815 --> 01:28:02.395
No. That's
1087
01:28:02.775 --> 01:28:08.715
piss off Microsoft or or Linus or something. Right? But but I think there was, like, Microsoft Windows. Someone's like Windows.
1088
01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:14.920
Yeah. Windows. WizzNix. Yeah. So, yeah, if it's not confusingly similar, you can not have to pay royalties.
1089
01:28:15.380 --> 01:28:19.475
And just like yeah. You you're free to fork the mempool open source project, but
1090
01:28:20.095 --> 01:28:26.275
then you can't call it the mempool open source project. That's our project name. You have to call it something else.
1091
01:28:26.810 --> 01:28:27.550
It's free
1092
01:28:28.010 --> 01:28:31.710
software, but you can't call it what we call it. Got it.
1093
01:28:32.650 --> 01:28:33.150
Interesting.
1094
01:28:33.850 --> 01:28:34.989
So we're
1095
01:28:35.365 --> 01:28:38.665
1096
01:28:40.645 --> 01:28:48.410
So let's discuss this. I mean, a lot of the freaks are already aware of Bisc. I talked about Biscol Time, swacking awesome product. You're heavily involved.
1097
01:28:50.465 --> 01:28:55.364
Bisk is a is is is software that you can freely run on your computer
1098
01:28:55.985 --> 01:28:58.485
and connect to other people in a
1099
01:28:59.570 --> 01:29:00.710
p to p way,
1100
01:29:01.410 --> 01:29:02.469
to trade Bitcoin,
1101
01:29:03.250 --> 01:29:05.030
for either Fiat or shitcoins.
1102
01:29:06.295 --> 01:29:09.755
1103
01:29:10.855 --> 01:29:13.275
made by very, very smart people. And
1104
01:29:13.990 --> 01:29:15.930
I think everyone loves BISK because
1105
01:29:16.470 --> 01:29:18.330
the the message is so strong.
1106
01:29:18.710 --> 01:29:21.290
The message is that KYC is the illicit activity.
1107
01:29:23.065 --> 01:29:23.545
We
1108
01:29:24.105 --> 01:29:26.685
I mean, Bisk is a is an open source software
1109
01:29:27.465 --> 01:29:30.445
program that connects you to other people running Bisk
1110
01:29:31.420 --> 01:29:36.000
so that you can trade Bitcoin peer to peer with other Bitcoiners directly
1111
01:29:36.460 --> 01:29:37.360
without other
1112
01:29:37.739 --> 01:29:43.885
trusted third parties knowing about your transaction details or even your name. Right. So in practice, it's like instead of
1113
01:29:44.345 --> 01:29:53.120
1114
01:29:53.820 --> 01:29:59.605
Bisc allows 2 peers to connect directly to each other and exchange only the information that they want to exchange.
1115
01:30:00.065 --> 01:30:03.204
1116
01:30:03.585 --> 01:30:15.929
Everyone just has an onion address and connects to each other in the app, and you can make an offer or take someone else's offer to trade Bitcoin for fiat in a number of payment methods all over the world.
1117
01:30:16.505 --> 01:30:17.885
I think in the United States,
1118
01:30:18.585 --> 01:30:20.765
US postal money order or Zelle
1119
01:30:21.145 --> 01:30:21.625
or,
1120
01:30:22.025 --> 01:30:30.680
few other methods are supported. I mean, you could also meet in person and exchange cash, or I think Amazon gift cards are popular now. There's a number of ways to
1121
01:30:31.455 --> 01:30:32.195
trade Bitcoin
1122
01:30:32.735 --> 01:30:33.235
privately
1123
01:30:33.935 --> 01:30:37.474
and peer to peer using Bisk, and and it's just a beautiful app.
1124
01:30:38.175 --> 01:30:40.594
1125
01:30:41.800 --> 01:30:48.860
1126
01:30:49.225 --> 01:31:02.429
jeez, must be, like, 7 years or older now. It's it's one of the early Bitcoin It was, like, 2013 or 2014, maybe. Right. Right around 2013. Yeah. Sounds about right. So and even before then, I know they were thinking about it for a long time too because
1127
01:31:02.969 --> 01:31:04.190
it started from
1128
01:31:04.650 --> 01:31:08.330
what we called Satoshi Square, where you would go to a Bitcoin meetup and
1129
01:31:09.165 --> 01:31:14.385
I remember that. Yeah. There was there was not a lot of exchanges back then. There were not a lot of
1130
01:31:15.005 --> 01:31:18.705
1131
01:31:19.550 --> 01:31:28.610
1132
01:31:29.304 --> 01:31:40.380
1133
01:31:40.840 --> 01:31:43.020
be orders, maybe yelling bids.
1134
01:31:44.680 --> 01:31:46.219
1135
01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:47.100
So
1136
01:31:47.755 --> 01:31:49.215
the digital version of that
1137
01:31:49.675 --> 01:31:53.375
was the idea for Bisk or Bitsquare at the time. So from Satoshi
1138
01:31:54.155 --> 01:31:54.655
Square,
1139
01:31:55.260 --> 01:32:00.080
the founders of Square Project tried to implement that same energy, and they created this
1140
01:32:00.940 --> 01:32:02.035
1141
01:32:02.675 --> 01:32:08.695
1142
01:32:09.290 --> 01:32:12.829
directly with the counterparty. You don't even need to know who they are.
1143
01:32:13.369 --> 01:32:22.545
I mean, you could set up, what's what's the the cool way to do it? A Wyoming LLC with a PO box and use US postal money order, and then nobody knows
1144
01:32:23.185 --> 01:32:27.989
I think Econo Alchemist does guide for that. Right. Either he or Diverter does. Yeah. There's some ex
1145
01:32:29.010 --> 01:32:32.389
guides out there on how to trade private disk and the
1146
01:32:34.530 --> 01:32:47.930
1147
01:32:48.550 --> 01:32:50.730
1148
01:32:51.405 --> 01:33:02.920
and and so the the obvious questions are as much information as you wanna provide. Right? Because it's up to the peers how they want to use it. So the obvious questions, when I tell someone about Biscard, well, what if the other guy
1149
01:33:03.220 --> 01:33:09.385
scammed me? What if I send them money, he doesn't send me the Bitcoin? And this is just the key problem. Right? So this has this
1150
01:33:09.844 --> 01:33:11.125
decentralized organization, the
1151
01:33:12.005 --> 01:33:14.905
this DAO to resolve trade disputes, essentially, and
1152
01:33:15.430 --> 01:33:19.290
manage the parameters of the peer to peer network. For example, if
1153
01:33:20.070 --> 01:33:21.770
Bob and Alice are
1154
01:33:22.445 --> 01:33:25.905
agreeing on some terms to buy 1 Bitcoin for $1,000,
1155
01:33:26.764 --> 01:33:32.300
if Bob wires the money to Alice on whatever payment method they agree on, but Alice doesn't
1156
01:33:32.679 --> 01:33:33.659
release the Bitcoin.
1157
01:33:34.679 --> 01:33:36.860
First of all, it's in a 2 of 2 multisig.
1158
01:33:39.255 --> 01:33:41.034
Previously, it was a 2 of 3 multisig
1159
01:33:41.335 --> 01:33:41.835
where
1160
01:33:42.295 --> 01:33:44.954
an arbitrator from Bisk would hold one of the keys.
1161
01:33:45.255 --> 01:33:48.510
But early on, we realized this is an obvious security flaw because
1162
01:33:49.370 --> 01:33:50.110
the arbitrator
1163
01:33:50.650 --> 01:33:53.710
could just go to Bisk and take every offer,
1164
01:33:54.010 --> 01:33:55.550
and now they hold 2 keys.
1165
01:33:56.405 --> 01:33:57.305
Right. So
1166
01:33:57.845 --> 01:34:02.185
the newer version of DISC now uses the 2 of 2 multisig with a time lock.
1167
01:34:02.645 --> 01:34:05.705
And this way, only Alice and Bob have the
1168
01:34:06.150 --> 01:34:09.210
keys to settle their transaction on their own. However,
1169
01:34:09.670 --> 01:34:14.570
if some time goes by, which is either 10 or 20 days depending on the payment method, if they cannot
1170
01:34:15.505 --> 01:34:17.525
settle this trade on their own,
1171
01:34:18.065 --> 01:34:21.605
then the funds will essentially be sent to the BiskDAO.
1172
01:34:22.465 --> 01:34:22.965
And,
1173
01:34:23.970 --> 01:34:27.510
well, first of all, they'll they'll start mediation. So before the the funds go anywhere,
1174
01:34:28.130 --> 01:34:44.250
mediator will just join the chat and or not join this chat. They'll make separate new chats, so they can't even see what you guys discussed previously. But the mediator will see the details of the trade and talk to Alice and Bob and and try and work it out. Because usually, newbies make mistakes or they mess up their node or
1175
01:34:44.630 --> 01:34:51.335
whatever reason that the mail got slow and so they didn't get it. But, eventually, the mediator helps them out, Or
1176
01:34:52.035 --> 01:34:59.175
if they can't resolve it with the mediation, then it would go to arbitration where one of the parties would broadcast this time locked transaction.
1177
01:34:59.610 --> 01:35:03.230
After 10 or 20 days, funds would go to Bisk, and then the mediator
1178
01:35:03.610 --> 01:35:05.550
would make a suggested payout
1179
01:35:06.409 --> 01:35:07.789
on the Bisk dApp. Alice
1180
01:35:08.165 --> 01:35:16.344
Alice showed me, you know, enough sufficient evidence to where she sent the US Postal money order. She has a photo of the envelope and the receipt from the mailbox.
1181
01:35:17.250 --> 01:35:23.989
And I checked on the post office website that it was indeed cashed at this post office for this amount, so I I suggest that,
1182
01:35:24.369 --> 01:35:26.494
you know, she gets the the payout.
1183
01:35:27.034 --> 01:35:27.855
And, usually,
1184
01:35:29.114 --> 01:35:29.614
this
1185
01:35:29.994 --> 01:35:31.534
combined with security deposits
1186
01:35:31.835 --> 01:35:34.175
is enough to to prevent any scams
1187
01:35:34.690 --> 01:35:43.750
or this this disincentifies scams anyway. Because a scammer doesn't like to lose their own funds. A scammer doesn't like to risk their own money. So if they have to put up security deposit
1188
01:35:44.065 --> 01:35:48.244
and if they try to scam on someone and they lose their security deposit, well, they don't
1189
01:35:48.784 --> 01:35:52.324
come in. Right. You're adding a cost to the scam. Right. So
1190
01:35:52.739 --> 01:36:00.760
the game theory and the incentives are all there to resolve disputes. And then because of that dispute resolution process and security deposits,
1191
01:36:01.805 --> 01:36:08.625
the game theory is that scammers don't really maybe, like, once a month Right. It's not perfect. Yeah. It's not perfect, but it's been mitigated enough.
1192
01:36:09.200 --> 01:36:11.940
Right. Without using any form of KYC
1193
01:36:12.240 --> 01:36:19.755
1194
01:36:20.215 --> 01:36:33.130
1195
01:36:34.055 --> 01:36:35.515
So for the security side,
1196
01:36:36.135 --> 01:36:38.155
arbitration can resolve this
1197
01:36:38.695 --> 01:36:39.595
scam risk
1198
01:36:39.975 --> 01:36:43.830
and disincentivize it with security deposits and the ability to confiscate them.
1199
01:36:44.450 --> 01:36:49.830
And privacy risk, only the 2 transaction parties, Alice and Bob, will know about the transaction.
1200
01:36:50.245 --> 01:36:51.865
If they have a dispute, then
1201
01:36:52.405 --> 01:37:01.080
a mediator would also see those transaction details. But for the most part, it's as private as it can get. And then censorship, because there is no BIS company,
1202
01:37:01.940 --> 01:37:06.040
there is no BISK servers. It's all peer to peer over Tor.
1203
01:37:06.445 --> 01:37:08.705
It's extremely censorship resistant and
1204
01:37:10.525 --> 01:37:11.025
unregulated.
1205
01:37:14.690 --> 01:37:15.190
1206
01:37:16.850 --> 01:37:23.510
So, I mean, there one of the cool panels that I put you on for the open source stage was, the decks panel,
1207
01:37:24.525 --> 01:37:27.745
and CSU Wildcat was on there. He's working with Square,
1208
01:37:28.765 --> 01:37:29.745
on his decentralized
1209
01:37:30.125 --> 01:37:30.625
identifiers.
1210
01:37:31.165 --> 01:37:39.920
TBD is what it's called. Right. No. So but he's he's working specifically on DIDS, his decentralized identifiers, which are gonna be integrated into
1211
01:37:40.835 --> 01:37:41.575
their TBD
1212
01:37:41.955 --> 01:37:43.335
protocol, which is,
1213
01:37:44.355 --> 01:37:44.855
basically
1214
01:37:45.155 --> 01:37:48.455
their the open network decentralized exchange protocol,
1215
01:37:49.610 --> 01:37:50.909
that allows you to trade
1216
01:37:52.250 --> 01:37:54.809
Bitcoin for other things, whether that's Fiat or
1217
01:37:58.075 --> 01:38:00.015
Sandwiches. Sandwiches or
1218
01:38:00.555 --> 01:38:02.655
I I use cars as an example.
1219
01:38:05.760 --> 01:38:12.420
How do you what are you what are your thoughts on so so BIST doesn't have first of all, if you haven't listened to that panel,
1220
01:38:13.280 --> 01:38:21.635
which day was that? I think it was day 2, the first general admission. Right. So if you go to all all three open source stage is,
1221
01:38:22.219 --> 01:38:31.679
are on the podcast feed, and there's actually time stamps where you can click the individual panels. But if you go to day 2, click their individual panel. Your podcast app should just pull you right to that moment.
1222
01:38:32.755 --> 01:38:34.295
But what are your thoughts on
1223
01:38:34.835 --> 01:38:37.815
using basically a reputation system as an additional
1224
01:38:38.435 --> 01:38:43.710
fraud layer? Like, if I mean and we've seen centralized reputation systems, stuff like eBay
1225
01:38:44.090 --> 01:38:45.630
or Airbnb, where
1226
01:38:46.010 --> 01:38:58.385
if you've used Airbnb a lot, you know it's always more risky to book from a host that doesn't have a bunch of reviews. But if a host has 60 good reviews and you're like, wow, this host is awesome, you feel more comfortable,
1227
01:38:59.310 --> 01:39:01.090
renting a room from them.
1228
01:39:01.950 --> 01:39:07.010
1229
01:39:07.835 --> 01:39:10.094
if you're optimizing for maximum privacy,
1230
01:39:11.355 --> 01:39:17.690
you would not want a reputation system because a reputation system is literally linking all of your previous transactions and
1231
01:39:18.489 --> 01:39:19.469
Currently, it's a one
1232
01:39:19.929 --> 01:39:27.389
one single identity where I can see everything they've been doing. So Bisc does not have any form of a reputation system or,
1233
01:39:27.755 --> 01:39:29.855
you know, even an identity system,
1234
01:39:30.155 --> 01:39:30.655
really.
1235
01:39:31.435 --> 01:39:34.495
There are few mechanisms in there where,
1236
01:39:35.230 --> 01:39:36.929
like, the hash of a payment account
1237
01:39:37.630 --> 01:39:38.369
can have
1238
01:39:38.750 --> 01:39:43.465
some street cred on the Bisq network. Like a hash of a bank account or something? Right.
1239
01:39:43.945 --> 01:39:49.645
And that could be considered a decentralized identifier if you wanna call it that, but it's nothing like
1240
01:39:50.344 --> 01:39:53.450
the newer protocols and where everything is based around these
1241
01:39:54.010 --> 01:39:54.510
decentralized
1242
01:39:54.890 --> 01:39:55.390
identifiers.
1243
01:39:56.090 --> 01:40:00.990
I mean, Bisk doesn't wanna have an identity system. Right? I mean, you can we've we've discussed having
1244
01:40:01.534 --> 01:40:03.955
one Tor Onion host name per transaction.
1245
01:40:05.054 --> 01:40:09.315
Right now, it uses the same onion, but you it's very easy to delete it and make a new one.
1246
01:40:09.695 --> 01:40:10.195
The
1247
01:40:10.770 --> 01:40:14.310
the cost of creating a new Onion host name is basically free. So
1248
01:40:15.490 --> 01:40:17.110
if you want anonymity
1249
01:40:18.425 --> 01:40:31.940
and you want privacy, yeah, you don't want a reputation system. Right. TV DEX trade off there. Yeah. TV DEX has the problem of being developed by a centralized regulated company, and so, obviously, they need to do KYC AML compliance.
1250
01:40:32.320 --> 01:40:33.140
And so, therefore,
1251
01:40:33.935 --> 01:40:35.155
their protocol inflammation,
1252
01:40:35.455 --> 01:40:35.955
obviously,
1253
01:40:36.495 --> 01:40:40.594
1254
01:40:41.110 --> 01:40:44.329
very similar to the corporate of Fisk to me, which is
1255
01:40:44.869 --> 01:40:46.170
if you create this
1256
01:40:47.030 --> 01:40:48.250
this open protocol,
1257
01:40:48.695 --> 01:40:52.555
you can allow people to use it however they wanna use it. So there could be
1258
01:40:53.175 --> 01:40:56.635
what affects to a KYC compliant transactions on TBD,
1259
01:40:57.575 --> 01:40:58.075
where
1260
01:40:58.450 --> 01:40:59.190
both entities
1261
01:40:59.570 --> 01:41:00.070
require
1262
01:41:01.090 --> 01:41:03.750
your did or whatever we wanna call it, your your
1263
01:41:04.210 --> 01:41:09.445
your reputation to have hash commitments from some kind of KYC authority. Right?
1264
01:41:09.985 --> 01:41:14.805
That has maybe checked your passport and checked all this in information for you and and then basically
1265
01:41:15.190 --> 01:41:22.329
hashed a reference into your did that says, you know, this person is who they say they are, and they talk about all these different things where it can be more,
1266
01:41:22.949 --> 01:41:23.449
robust
1267
01:41:23.985 --> 01:41:37.890
than typical k current KYC systems where it's, like, they're above a certain age or they live in this state or they're not a felon or, like but not the specific this is a their selfie and their passport or whatever. But then also, you could have
1268
01:41:38.270 --> 01:41:40.690
transactors in that open protocol that are,
1269
01:41:42.375 --> 01:41:43.755
maybe they don't require
1270
01:41:44.295 --> 01:41:45.195
that that
1271
01:41:45.974 --> 01:41:48.215
in-depth information, but they just wanna know,
1272
01:41:49.370 --> 01:41:57.785
which country you live in or maybe even less than that. They just wanna know what your social media account is or something, and that that is hashed into your did. Right? So
1273
01:41:58.105 --> 01:41:58.605
the
1274
01:41:58.985 --> 01:42:07.325
idea my understanding of their idea is that it's this open protocol where there'll be different layers of how much people want in terms of reputation or KYC,
1275
01:42:08.970 --> 01:42:15.710
and it just comes down to the individual transactors. But it's interesting the different trade off between just no reputation system period
1276
01:42:16.635 --> 01:42:21.375
and working around that with basically the security deposit model that Bisca has
1277
01:42:21.755 --> 01:42:25.215
1278
01:42:25.640 --> 01:42:28.520
the whole and in fact, the first time we discussed this,
1279
01:42:29.159 --> 01:42:34.395
jeez, it was years ago, I think, on TFTC with uncle uncle Marty.
1280
01:42:35.655 --> 01:42:40.635
We talked about with Steve also was there, and you asked Steve Yeah. Similar question.
1281
01:42:41.210 --> 01:42:43.630
1282
01:42:43.930 --> 01:42:45.550
1283
01:42:46.010 --> 01:42:53.375
And, Steve had a very elegant answer, I thought, to this question. And he says, you know, why have reputation systems?
1284
01:42:54.475 --> 01:42:56.575
All you really need is the integrity.
1285
01:42:56.910 --> 01:42:59.010
Right? Because what is the actual threat model
1286
01:43:00.510 --> 01:43:02.930
for why to have a reputation system
1287
01:43:03.310 --> 01:43:05.890
is the first in the in the first place. Right?
1288
01:43:06.535 --> 01:43:07.035
If
1289
01:43:07.495 --> 01:43:13.594
you know that you're gonna get paid on the trade, either through the ordinary honest way, or if you do
1290
01:43:14.100 --> 01:43:14.600
unfortunately
1291
01:43:15.380 --> 01:43:19.000
have a dispute that the Bisk DAO will make it up to you somehow,
1292
01:43:19.780 --> 01:43:23.685
then why would you care about the reputation? If the integrity is there,
1293
01:43:24.085 --> 01:43:27.865
then there is no need for such a reputation system, and it is only
1294
01:43:29.205 --> 01:43:30.825
going to hurt your privacy.
1295
01:43:31.760 --> 01:43:42.935
And, sure, if you with a decentralized identifier system, you could make throwaway identities, one for every transaction. You can do that. But you get penalized in that system because, like I said, with Airbnb,
1296
01:43:44.595 --> 01:43:47.335
1297
01:43:49.200 --> 01:43:50.820
hosts that have good reputations
1298
01:43:51.280 --> 01:43:57.620
on the network or even guests that have good it goes both ways that have good reputations on the network are more likely to
1299
01:43:59.844 --> 01:44:04.025
get matches with peers or get higher prices on their Airbnb rentals because
1300
01:44:04.804 --> 01:44:09.429
1301
01:44:09.969 --> 01:44:13.829
online. Right? I mean, if you're physically going to be in somebody else's house,
1302
01:44:14.295 --> 01:44:18.715
you probably want some assurance that they're not a murderer or something. Right? And,
1303
01:44:20.215 --> 01:44:20.715
likewise,
1304
01:44:21.860 --> 01:44:23.480
in an Uber ride, for example,
1305
01:44:23.860 --> 01:44:29.800
you know, it's a peer to peer centrally managed peer to peer riding system. You wanna make sure Right. You wanna have some assurance
1306
01:44:30.415 --> 01:44:34.195
from the Uber company that this guy is legit and not gonna
1307
01:44:34.895 --> 01:44:35.955
1308
01:44:36.335 --> 01:44:44.900
like, a sketchy corner of the city and Right. Rob you or do worse. So for those threat models, sure, rep reputation system might make sense. But
1309
01:44:45.680 --> 01:44:50.645
1310
01:44:51.265 --> 01:44:57.605
you do not need a reputation system. And Bisk has proven this. Wait. I mean, cash is different. Right? Because cash is instantly settled.
1311
01:44:58.625 --> 01:45:04.550
1312
01:45:04.930 --> 01:45:08.150
that causes issues. Like, I mean, especially, like, if you look at,
1313
01:45:09.015 --> 01:45:09.915
I would argue,
1314
01:45:10.455 --> 01:45:12.554
if you're trading Bitcoin for shit coins,
1315
01:45:14.215 --> 01:45:27.685
you really don't need a reputation system because it's all just cryptographically verified instantly settled. Exactly. Right. And those shitcoins could be stable coins or whatever Exactly. Tokens, whatever it is instantly. So the the fraud issues you see are
1316
01:45:28.145 --> 01:45:42.800
they come from the fiat system and the inefficiencies of the fiat system and Like, someone could write someone a bad check. Or Right. Or or or they could I they could steal someone's account and send you fraudulent payments that get charged back and then get reversed. Or
1317
01:45:43.340 --> 01:45:52.315
Right. So like, if like, imagine someone gets access to someone's bank account, so then they instantly buy a bunch of Bitcoin on Bisk with that bank account.
1318
01:45:52.840 --> 01:45:54.139
The bank then realizes,
1319
01:45:55.159 --> 01:46:02.675
1320
01:46:03.375 --> 01:46:07.555
Bisk has this duty to mitigate those chargeback risks. So, for example,
1321
01:46:08.800 --> 01:46:10.500
in our bank transfer
1322
01:46:10.800 --> 01:46:11.860
system is
1323
01:46:12.480 --> 01:46:13.460
not chargebackable,
1324
01:46:13.920 --> 01:46:24.324
so there is no chargeback risk. If I wire you money, it's instant and done, and the transaction cannot be reversed at all ever without, like, a court order or something very, very difficult to obtain.
1325
01:46:24.705 --> 01:46:25.890
Whereas in the US,
1326
01:46:26.450 --> 01:46:34.230
it's almost a joke. You can just call up the credit card. Oh, yeah. My thing got hacked. Can you just charge back that money? And they'll do it. Right. And so in the US,
1327
01:46:35.005 --> 01:46:41.745
one of the popular payment methods, Zelle, does have some chargeback risk. And so to mitigate this, the Bisk developers came up with this clever idea
1328
01:46:42.205 --> 01:46:42.705
where
1329
01:46:43.500 --> 01:46:46.240
the hash of your payment account data
1330
01:46:47.660 --> 01:46:53.835
gets propped through the BISK peer to peer network so that every node knows the age of your payment accounts.
1331
01:46:54.455 --> 01:46:55.275
And so
1332
01:46:56.055 --> 01:46:58.075
if your account age is
1333
01:46:59.015 --> 01:47:03.250
older than 30 days or something like this and other people have cryptographically
1334
01:47:03.630 --> 01:47:10.290
signed it who were signed. So it's, basically, if your payment account was vouched for by another vouched person,
1335
01:47:11.015 --> 01:47:20.235
then Because they made a successful trade with you. Right? Right. And it did not go to arbitration. So that is a reputation system in that regard. In an anonymous way. And then so if there
1336
01:47:20.850 --> 01:47:34.685
1337
01:47:35.125 --> 01:47:42.140
1338
01:47:42.680 --> 01:47:48.435
or mediator on DISC sees some fraud and and chargeback, then, yeah, that payment account is now,
1339
01:47:48.895 --> 01:47:52.915
nuked. And that's the that's the mitigation. Right? And, also, the Bisk DAO
1340
01:47:53.455 --> 01:47:59.010
can always reimburse traders out of the out of their own DAO funds, which has happened in the past.
1341
01:47:59.390 --> 01:48:01.170
Couple years ago, there was this
1342
01:48:01.470 --> 01:48:09.075
security vulnerability in the Bisk app where I think it was, like, 6 people 6 traders on the Monero to BTC market got
1343
01:48:09.535 --> 01:48:10.515
some funds stolen
1344
01:48:10.975 --> 01:48:13.910
through a very elaborate attack where Bisco wasn't verifying
1345
01:48:14.290 --> 01:48:16.150
the correct payout address or something.
1346
01:48:16.610 --> 01:48:17.989
And they they sold probably,
1347
01:48:18.690 --> 01:48:19.590
like, almost $200,000
1348
01:48:20.130 --> 01:48:23.534
worth of Monero, I think. And so the did
1349
01:48:24.235 --> 01:48:30.620
a proposal. Alright. Should we, you know, divert the trading fee revenue to pay these guys back? And they did. They got
1350
01:48:30.920 --> 01:48:31.420
their
1351
01:48:31.800 --> 01:48:36.540
$200,000 back or whatever it was. I mean, it took, like, a whole year to pay them back, but they got they got made whole.
1352
01:48:36.975 --> 01:48:40.755
1353
01:48:41.215 --> 01:48:45.554
Bisk is obviously an extremely vital project in in a world where
1354
01:48:47.670 --> 01:48:49.290
we're seeing more KYC
1355
01:48:50.790 --> 01:48:53.555
go throughout its KYC is just
1356
01:48:54.115 --> 01:49:01.335
insidious. It just enters every aspect of our lives. You have all these centralized parties that are getting regulated and cracked down on if they're not implementing
1357
01:49:02.430 --> 01:49:13.335
these these stringent regulations, these burdensome regulations that don't actually prevent crime because criminals use bought or stolen information and get around it in other ways, just hurts honest individuals.
1358
01:49:14.595 --> 01:49:18.935
So we're seeing all these crackdowns happen, and I will say before I get to this question that
1359
01:49:19.960 --> 01:49:22.540
whether TBD is successful or things like Robosats
1360
01:49:22.920 --> 01:49:26.460
or even HODL HODL, which is a more centralized trade off balance,
1361
01:49:27.665 --> 01:49:36.165
We we want as many options for Bitcoiners as possible. I mean, at at the end of the day, that makes the whole system more robust that that people have all these different options in terms of
1362
01:49:37.400 --> 01:49:38.380
using their Bitcoin
1363
01:49:38.680 --> 01:49:40.780
and and obtaining more Bitcoin.
1364
01:49:42.760 --> 01:49:46.140
But 3 years over 3 years working with this, what,
1365
01:49:47.795 --> 01:49:51.255
like, what have you learned? What what are the pain points? What are the
1366
01:49:51.715 --> 01:49:54.215
what do you wish it did better? But, like,
1367
01:49:55.140 --> 01:49:58.679
in your view, I I think you have a very unique perspective here.
1368
01:49:59.780 --> 01:50:01.480
Like, how can the overarching
1369
01:50:01.940 --> 01:50:02.840
Bitcoin ecosystem,
1370
01:50:03.460 --> 01:50:04.120
you know,
1371
01:50:05.054 --> 01:50:12.034
see the the lessons that were learned in this development and and maybe build a project that's better or improve this itself?
1372
01:50:13.119 --> 01:50:14.260
1373
01:50:14.880 --> 01:50:17.460
This is not perfect by any means.
1374
01:50:18.480 --> 01:50:20.420
I mean, the first of all, the code is
1375
01:50:20.880 --> 01:50:28.055
quite old and aging. It it was written in Java in in a time, you know, starting, like, 6 or 7 years ago, I think.
1376
01:50:28.755 --> 01:50:29.255
That's
1377
01:50:31.410 --> 01:50:33.110
it was written in the time where
1378
01:50:33.490 --> 01:50:35.190
SPV was still used.
1379
01:50:35.890 --> 01:50:42.795
Bloom filters were still used. This technology is not really used by Bitcoin anymore now. The you know, it's moved on to
1380
01:50:43.255 --> 01:50:45.755
better ways of having light nodes on the network
1381
01:50:46.615 --> 01:50:48.555
with their own trade offs and everything.
1382
01:50:49.090 --> 01:50:53.510
But I think more more more than anything, the code base is just this kind
1383
01:50:54.290 --> 01:51:07.250
of aging Java code base that's very difficult to work with, and it's very heavy to run a Java virtual machine on your computer. I mean, if you anyone who's ever used Biscuits known that the fans in your laptop will
1384
01:51:07.650 --> 01:51:09.990
start spinning and your laptop will get very hot
1385
01:51:10.450 --> 01:51:17.215
because your disk node is using all the CPU power and trying to sync all this data. And so
1386
01:51:18.395 --> 01:51:22.495
I actually made a proposal a couple years ago to reimplement this in Rust lang,
1387
01:51:22.875 --> 01:51:23.375
which
1388
01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:27.579
we actually got a very simple proof of concept working where we had the
1389
01:51:28.599 --> 01:51:30.300
the proof of concept Rust
1390
01:51:31.005 --> 01:51:34.225
biz cap look in implementation. It's called risk, r I s q,
1391
01:51:34.925 --> 01:51:37.345
running inside of an Android app
1392
01:51:38.300 --> 01:51:50.835
so that on my Android phone running like Graphene OS, I had Bisc running directly on the phone with no computer, no Raspberry Pi, connecting directly to Tor network, connecting directly to other
1393
01:51:51.215 --> 01:51:52.755
BISK peer to peer nodes
1394
01:51:53.215 --> 01:51:56.880
and getting the the orders on the market the offers on the market.
1395
01:51:57.820 --> 01:51:58.320
And
1396
01:51:59.260 --> 01:52:05.575
the and I made a proposal to basically get the bat Biscount of fund the development of this Rust implementation,
1397
01:52:06.435 --> 01:52:08.775
and the proposal was rejected by,
1398
01:52:09.290 --> 01:52:24.095
you know, the the founders of the of the project, basically, who voted against it. Because they hold the most DAO tokens. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's their project. Right? Right. It's like if you made a proposal to mempool sore a mempool space and said we wanna reimplement it in a different language,
1399
01:52:24.475 --> 01:52:31.760
me and Simon would probably say no. You know They could just do it anyway. Right. I mean You just won't fund it. I just wanted yeah. I wanted them to pay for it.
1400
01:52:32.400 --> 01:52:43.835
I had this other developer, Justin, I was working with the time who's, I think, now with the money. But he worked very hard on it, and, you know, there was some drama. Basically, the I think the founders wanted to keep using the Java code base.
1401
01:52:44.469 --> 01:52:46.890
And despite our really cool proof of concept,
1402
01:52:48.070 --> 01:52:51.770
which we, you know, we got up and running very quickly in Rust, they said,
1403
01:52:52.245 --> 01:52:52.745
no.
1404
01:52:53.125 --> 01:52:57.945
We want you to use the Java code base with this new RPC API that we're developing.
1405
01:52:58.725 --> 01:53:01.625
Jeez, it must have been, like, 2 over 2 years ago,
1406
01:53:02.230 --> 01:53:10.010
and I think that RPC API is still not ready to go. Right? So that was just, like where whereas if if we would have kept working on that Rust implementation
1407
01:53:10.415 --> 01:53:30.035
1408
01:53:30.655 --> 01:53:36.275
I would say, is that we're increasingly moving towards this mobile future where people don't even own computers.
1409
01:53:37.940 --> 01:53:40.360
And if you want real usage of something,
1410
01:53:41.380 --> 01:53:44.120
there should be at at least a mobile
1411
01:53:44.665 --> 01:53:51.725
capable way of using it. But I would say I would even go further where it should be almost a mobile first development where you're
1412
01:53:52.200 --> 01:54:00.620
you're expecting the overwhelm. Like, I even so, like, I I self host analytics for for civil dispatch, and, like, you see on the analytics that
1413
01:54:02.355 --> 01:54:08.614
there is the overwhelming majority of people are coming in through mobile browsers. Right? And that's obviously a very basic,
1414
01:54:09.800 --> 01:54:24.455
1415
01:54:24.835 --> 01:54:59.105
you know, where you can one click install disk from the Umbrel app store or something and have it remotely connect to your phone. Zeus model where you have the LND or core lightning node running, and then you have Zeus on your phone that natively connects back to it. Yeah. And and every day, I get like samurai model where you just scan a QR code, same idea. Exactly. Able to connect to your dojo. And and every day, 9,000 people ask me when disk on Umbro. And Right. I have to explain to them that there is no web interface for this, and there is no mobile app for this that can connect remotely to the headless daemon if it ran it headlessly. So and even the RPC API is not,
1416
01:54:59.645 --> 01:55:03.745
I think, a 100% ready to go either. Even though it's been years, they've been working on it now. So
1417
01:55:04.960 --> 01:55:17.895
while you could, in theory, run Bisc on a Raspberry Pi, you have no way to interact with it. And it would be so huge for Bisc to do this because most people do not keep their computer on 24 hours a day. And so they just
1418
01:55:18.355 --> 01:55:28.869
close their laptop lid, and their Bisk node goes to sleep, and all of their offers disappear from the other outstanding trades. Exactly. All the liquidity just appears from the the market.
1419
01:55:29.409 --> 01:55:33.705
So if you had Bisq running on Raspberry Pi, you would probably triple the liquidity
1420
01:55:34.885 --> 01:55:43.620
or more because of the 24 hours, offers being available. And then secondly, you'd have people remotely being able to trade, so
1421
01:55:44.160 --> 01:55:49.540
1422
01:55:50.465 --> 01:55:51.685
is is not nearly
1423
01:55:52.065 --> 01:55:57.285
not it's it's light years behind the liquidity of, like, a centralized regulated exchange.
1424
01:55:58.260 --> 01:56:06.840
And, really, to get a good price, you want to have your offer up there for a while because of the liquidity. So you're you're stuck in a situation where you're always running your your computer.
1425
01:56:07.395 --> 01:56:32.145
1426
01:56:32.445 --> 01:56:32.945
Yeah.
1427
01:56:33.280 --> 01:56:36.900
So it would be nice to reimplement DISC in a modern
1428
01:56:37.440 --> 01:56:41.220
protocol way, in a modern programming language, mobile first,
1429
01:56:41.605 --> 01:56:54.240
probably integrate it with all the popular wallets so that when you need to to fund the bisque trade, it just opens your and in practice, what you're seeing is something getting built from scratch in that situation. Right? I think at this point, yeah, it would be a full reimplementation.
1430
01:56:55.340 --> 01:57:01.035
So while while the Bisc app is great and it works and people use it every day to trade,
1431
01:57:01.495 --> 01:57:02.715
it could be
1432
01:57:03.175 --> 01:57:03.675
reborn.
1433
01:57:04.135 --> 01:57:05.495
And there are efforts to
1434
01:57:06.375 --> 01:57:15.190
well, I guess, BISK 2, they they've been working on this for a while now, which which my understanding is it's gonna be a more generic contract execution environment, but they're still not addressing,
1435
01:57:16.370 --> 01:57:26.645
a lot of the the problems I see, which is, like, the aging code base. I mean, they're still gonna break it in Java with the you know, just So, I mean, I think that's an interesting thought process to go down. So if
1436
01:57:27.250 --> 01:57:33.110
1437
01:57:33.730 --> 01:57:34.230
today,
1438
01:57:35.105 --> 01:57:43.260
what would you what would be the key highlights of of that? And maybe, obviously, like, this is from your perspective, but, obviously, someone else could build it.
1439
01:57:43.739 --> 01:57:47.900
You're the dream the dream alternative. What is the dream alternative today if we could
1440
01:57:48.380 --> 01:58:08.840
Yeah. That's what we know today. I I guess, nowadays, everybody I mean, there were there were no Raspberry Pi full node 6 or 7 years ago when this got started. Even 2 years ago. Exactly. Like, Umbrella is still quite the newcomers in the space have no idea how bad it was. Yeah. It's it's and people say, like, development of Bitcoin goes slow. Right? But, like, on that on that front, it's amazing how much
1441
01:58:09.665 --> 01:58:19.205
1442
01:58:19.699 --> 01:58:32.815
out of garbage. Yeah. I guess if I had to implement this from scratch, the wish list would be something like of course, you separate the back end daemon from the front end daemon in the typical Zeus model where you pair a mobile app to
1443
01:58:33.355 --> 01:58:34.575
a Raspberry Pi,
1444
01:58:35.035 --> 01:58:46.335
back end. But I would also wanna what what I what we also made, this proof of concept was that you did also didn't need a Raspberry Pi because That's even better. Right. If you wanna onboard someone to Bisq in a bar,
1445
01:58:46.715 --> 01:58:50.895
like, at a meetup Right. Like, okay. Install the Bisq app on your phone.
1446
01:58:51.515 --> 01:58:52.175
You know,
1447
01:58:52.555 --> 01:59:23.255
you can fund their first trade for them or something if they give you cash in person. I mean, that's a big trade off of this is that you need sats to buy sats. After you're at a meetup though and you had the mobile apps, that wouldn't be a problem because you could just give cash to someone and, you know, have them Or they could be a friend and just That that too. Right? Load you up some sets for your first trade. Or if there's a Bitcoin ATM at the meetup. Right? You could buy 8 stats on the on the ATM and load them into your business. So there's there's definitely you would wanna be have a a separated back end and front end. Whereas right now, the bisque node is,
1448
01:59:23.795 --> 01:59:27.415
you know, very, very high. Blob. One big blob. Exactly.
1449
01:59:27.890 --> 01:59:30.470
And it's very heavy, and it's very slow. So you'd want it to run
1450
01:59:31.010 --> 01:59:39.945
24 hours a day on your Raspberry Pi just like just like your Bitcoin daemon, just like your Lightning daemon, you want your Bisk daemon to run on your Raspberry Pi 24 hours a day, obviously.
1451
01:59:40.485 --> 01:59:49.800
All your offers should be up all the time, and anybody should be able to take your offers 24 hours a day. Right now, if you close your computer, all those offers disappear, and nobody can take them.
1452
01:59:50.420 --> 01:59:54.100
The second wish list item is that it should be integrated into
1453
02:00:03.880 --> 02:00:10.540
you don't need to keep funds on your Bisc app. You can just keep them in your Moon Wallet or your Zeus Wallet or whatever.
1454
02:00:11.080 --> 02:00:11.580
And
1455
02:00:12.114 --> 02:00:22.190
that way or you could even connect your Trezor to your phone and load them directly from your Trezor into your Bisc app to fund the trade Right. Or the other way around. Right now, Bisc has wallets for every single
1456
02:00:22.730 --> 02:00:25.150
1457
02:00:26.250 --> 02:00:27.950
1458
02:00:28.875 --> 02:00:39.590
1459
02:00:40.450 --> 02:00:45.735
1460
02:00:46.935 --> 02:00:52.054
So, yeah, that's a whole another thing. But but yeah. So the so the the trade protocol also could be,
1461
02:00:52.375 --> 02:00:57.930
improved. And this is something they are improving right now with the BISC V2. It's more of a generic contract execution
1462
02:00:58.710 --> 02:01:00.090
thing. So you could agree
1463
02:01:00.795 --> 02:01:03.375
on pretty much anything. Right? You could agree to trade
1464
02:01:03.994 --> 02:01:07.295
dollars for euros is the example they like to use where
1465
02:01:07.914 --> 02:01:11.949
it doesn't even have to be Bitcoin based. It could be lightning. It could be liquid. It could be anything.
1466
02:01:12.570 --> 02:01:24.985
Right? And you just make up whatever arbitrary contract terms you want. Of course, you'd wanna, like, normalize those contracts so that they can be on a or off offer book and and have the market book. Yeah. Market price discovery.
1467
02:01:25.364 --> 02:01:32.330
But I think once you have it running 24 hours a day on a Raspberry Pi with a slick mobile app that's integrated into all the other mobile apps
1468
02:01:32.790 --> 02:01:33.290
and
1469
02:01:34.074 --> 02:01:34.574
arbitrary
1470
02:01:34.875 --> 02:01:35.934
contract terms,
1471
02:01:36.315 --> 02:01:39.755
then you could do DLCs. Right? Like, Chris Stewart at Surebits
1472
02:01:40.155 --> 02:01:48.699
Right. Saw the Bisk offer book. He's like, oh my god. It's exactly what we need for our DLCs because he's figured out the DLC side, but he doesn't have any
1473
02:01:49.000 --> 02:01:57.954
1474
02:01:58.735 --> 02:01:59.715
Right? And
1475
02:02:00.060 --> 02:02:05.199
so, I mean, so you go you're going back and forth here. I mean, obviously, the easier access point is
1476
02:02:06.619 --> 02:02:07.360
you're running
1477
02:02:07.795 --> 02:02:09.015
the bisque back end
1478
02:02:09.395 --> 02:02:18.440
on a home server, whether that's a Raspberry Pi or something more powerful, and you connect back to it on your phone. That's the very more that's that's that's an easier reach. It's more actionable.
1479
02:02:19.940 --> 02:02:22.520
I mean, we have Mark, you sat in the comments
1480
02:02:23.475 --> 02:02:27.335
saying what the first thought that comes to my mind as well is, like, if it's mobile only
1481
02:02:27.795 --> 02:02:33.040
if it's everything's running on your phone, I mean, you're gonna run into battery issues probably is the main issue. Right? Actually, that's not.
1482
02:02:33.840 --> 02:02:40.340
1483
02:02:41.015 --> 02:02:41.655
1484
02:02:42.055 --> 02:02:43.675
it's it's connecting back.
1485
02:02:44.055 --> 02:02:57.620
It doesn't have so there's different threat models. Right. Zeus Zeus, you're running on a home server. You're running your your Lightning and your Bitcoin node, and then Zeus is connecting back to it on demand when it needs to. Right. But take another okay. Take a non, Zeus wallet like,
1486
02:02:58.000 --> 02:03:06.045
1487
02:03:06.970 --> 02:03:08.430
1488
02:03:09.530 --> 02:03:10.030
Not
1489
02:03:10.490 --> 02:03:13.710
1490
02:03:14.090 --> 02:03:15.630
tricks you can do to
1491
02:03:16.744 --> 02:03:18.685
keep your offers live on the network,
1492
02:03:19.465 --> 02:03:44.650
right, without actually having to run a full note all the time. So we're, like, you're, like, broadcasting your offer to peers. The peers are keeping it alive, and then you just need to be online when it's time to process the trade. Is that the thought? Something like that. Right? Where you would get a push notification and then your note wakes up and then actually does the the more heavy lifting. But the reason why Bisc is so heavy on a computer right now is mostly just because it's implemented in Java and because it's using bloom filters and SPV
1493
02:03:45.030 --> 02:03:48.890
1494
02:03:49.270 --> 02:03:53.415
1495
02:03:53.795 --> 02:03:59.255
inefficient in its own way. But then on top of that, to to make it, like, exponentially more heavy,
1496
02:03:59.670 --> 02:04:03.210
you're processing, like, every block of bit Bitcoin with very heavy,
1497
02:04:03.989 --> 02:04:06.250
computationally expensive bloom filters.
1498
02:04:06.789 --> 02:04:07.530
And so,
1499
02:04:08.565 --> 02:04:12.825
I mean, this is not used by any wallet anymore except this. That's how old it is. So
1500
02:04:13.685 --> 02:04:16.960
if you fix that to use something more modern, Nutrino protocol
1501
02:04:17.360 --> 02:04:18.880
or even Electrum protocol
1502
02:04:19.600 --> 02:04:20.180
I mean,
1503
02:04:20.560 --> 02:04:25.700
it's it's all trade offs. Right? If you have your own Everything is trade offs. Yeah. So you can save battery
1504
02:04:26.215 --> 02:04:28.075
by using somebody else's
1505
02:04:28.775 --> 02:04:36.840
1506
02:04:37.220 --> 02:04:43.080
Correct. But you still want your offers to be live 247. And you don't want censorship risk of a centralized server holding the offers.
1507
02:04:43.755 --> 02:04:54.610
Exactly. There is no centralized server in this, but I'm just saying, like, that would be the easiest way to implement it would be, like, there's a centralized web server that's holding all and that's what RoboSats does. I don't know if you're familiar with RoboSats, but RoboSats
1508
02:04:55.230 --> 02:04:56.850
is an onion only service
1509
02:04:57.469 --> 02:05:02.475
that the centralized server is is holding all is holding the full order book,
1510
02:05:03.655 --> 02:05:10.060
but it's connected through Tor, and you don't need KYC. And the actual orders are p to p, but the order book is centralized.
1511
02:05:10.600 --> 02:05:16.140
1512
02:05:16.920 --> 02:05:17.420
Right.
1513
02:05:17.755 --> 02:05:20.494
Yeah. So there's just a 1,000,000 ways Very new. To improve
1514
02:05:21.114 --> 02:05:21.614
this.
1515
02:05:23.114 --> 02:05:30.679
1516
02:05:30.980 --> 02:05:35.800
And a centralized server is sending the push notification, which is a different trade off, obviously.
1517
02:05:38.635 --> 02:05:40.735
1518
02:05:41.515 --> 02:05:42.015
Every
1519
02:05:42.395 --> 02:05:43.695
every back end payment.
1520
02:05:44.070 --> 02:05:47.290
1521
02:05:47.910 --> 02:05:49.930
Probably remove the BSQ token.
1522
02:05:50.550 --> 02:05:53.945
So let's go into that. So the BSQ token is used for the BISQ DAO.
1523
02:05:54.645 --> 02:06:02.425
1524
02:06:04.010 --> 02:06:06.510
or or maybe I should say the contributors to the project,
1525
02:06:07.449 --> 02:06:12.670
you know, any random new pseudonym can start contributing to BISK, which is great. But you don't
1526
02:06:13.655 --> 02:06:20.760
there's a lot of reasons why they need this, basically, shitcoin token to govern the BiskDAO. Right? Because you need to have, like, for example,
1527
02:06:21.480 --> 02:06:24.300
centralized exchange like Kraken has a corporation
1528
02:06:24.840 --> 02:06:25.579
with shareholders
1529
02:06:26.280 --> 02:06:33.245
1530
02:06:33.945 --> 02:06:35.015
And regulated.
1531
02:06:35.829 --> 02:06:42.010
1532
02:06:42.605 --> 02:06:50.000
then the governments of the world could go to Bisk and say you need a KYC. Like they did with Bitmax. They could arrest the founders. Oh, yeah. And so
1533
02:06:50.720 --> 02:07:00.435
jail. Bisk arguably needs a DAO and a governance. This is like the one legit use of a governance token. Right? There's 9,000 shitcoin scams out there that all have their own tokens.
1534
02:07:00.815 --> 02:07:02.114
But the purpose of those
1535
02:07:02.574 --> 02:07:03.875
tokens is just to
1536
02:07:04.230 --> 02:07:13.050
pump pump bags and numbers. The founders. Exactly. But with this, you you know, the contributors actually need it to, like, manage the network for censorship resistance.
1537
02:07:13.505 --> 02:07:14.005
And
1538
02:07:15.105 --> 02:07:16.965
it works well when
1539
02:07:17.345 --> 02:07:19.365
1540
02:07:20.145 --> 02:07:22.885
1541
02:07:23.330 --> 02:07:25.430
to to bisque, the open source project. And
1542
02:07:26.130 --> 02:07:29.750
as a reward for your contributions, you get some BSQ token,
1543
02:07:30.050 --> 02:07:32.870
and then you can vote on important,
1544
02:07:33.645 --> 02:07:37.905
proposals or, you know, should should we change the fees, or should we change the
1545
02:07:38.365 --> 02:07:44.130
the whatever? Should we list this new shit coin, or should we tell them to fuck off? You know, like, all of the really important proposals,
1546
02:07:44.590 --> 02:07:53.165
that's when your voting rights come in. And the more contributions you make to the project, the more votes you get, which is a really cool system, and it works extremely well. And there's also,
1547
02:07:53.545 --> 02:07:57.705
you know, votes for things like, okay, well, should we should we add Wiz as a,
1548
02:07:58.344 --> 02:08:02.829
price server operator? You know, should we add mempool space as the explorer,
1549
02:08:03.530 --> 02:08:15.380
or should we let mempool project run Biscott Markets website for the DAO? These things are cool because then the contributors like, the more contributions they've made, the more merit they have to weigh in on these important decisions. Right.
1550
02:08:15.860 --> 02:08:17.560
But the problem I feel
1551
02:08:18.420 --> 02:08:19.880
yeah. In my personal opinion,
1552
02:08:20.500 --> 02:08:21.000
it's
1553
02:08:21.780 --> 02:08:26.045
kind of perverts the incentives of the project. Like, the minute you have a token,
1554
02:08:26.505 --> 02:08:35.540
1555
02:08:36.080 --> 02:08:38.260
1556
02:08:38.655 --> 02:08:42.515
the toke like, the token is only used by the contributors internally
1557
02:08:43.055 --> 02:08:43.295
and
1558
02:08:43.935 --> 02:08:47.475
Or for votes. Right. For voting. Doesn't have monetary value. Exactly.
1559
02:08:47.780 --> 02:08:53.720
1560
02:08:54.580 --> 02:08:57.595
1561
02:08:58.455 --> 02:09:08.450
you sell or transfer your tokens to someone else, you still retain the voting rights, and this is to prevent the quote, unquote Roger Ver attack where So you just buys all the best tokens. Exactly. It's proof of stake.
1562
02:09:09.570 --> 02:09:14.915
Makes it p cash by default or whatever. Right. So it's kind of resistant to that attack to some extent.
1563
02:09:15.935 --> 02:09:26.760
And, also, you you know, some contributors just HODL their BSQ tokens. But, yeah, once you once you apply the financial part to the token, it kind of perverts the whole incentives of of everything.
1564
02:09:27.140 --> 02:09:27.960
And so
1565
02:09:28.605 --> 02:09:39.070
if I make a large contribution to Bisq, say, I sponsored the Bitcoin 2021 conference and got a Bisq booth and I used my own fiat to pay for that, Cool. Now I got a bunch of BSQ token.
1566
02:09:39.450 --> 02:09:39.950
And
1567
02:09:41.530 --> 02:09:44.910
that's great until I realized that now I'm incentivized
1568
02:09:45.290 --> 02:09:49.755
to pump this shit coin, essentially. Right? Like You either dump it immediately for sats or
1569
02:09:50.375 --> 02:09:51.675
1570
02:09:52.615 --> 02:09:58.810
1571
02:09:59.190 --> 02:10:05.370
diverted to how do we pump our bags. Right? How do we make this token go up in price? How do we dump on retail?
1572
02:10:05.815 --> 02:10:08.315
And it's it's it's terrible. And so
1573
02:10:09.175 --> 02:10:19.120
now I now I realized, like, yeah, I just wanna dump this as fast as possible, but I can't help but feel it ruins the project in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I mean, to answer your question about the wish list, I would definitely
1574
02:10:19.740 --> 02:10:21.280
think about changing the
1575
02:10:21.775 --> 02:10:26.114
the economics. So there's really all like, all Shitcoin scams can be boiled down to, like,
1576
02:10:26.735 --> 02:10:28.514
3 steps. Right? 1st, you
1577
02:10:28.950 --> 02:10:32.570
fill your bag, then you pump your bag, then you dump your bag
1578
02:10:32.950 --> 02:10:36.010
on on Right. The normies coming into FOMO in.
1579
02:10:36.310 --> 02:10:37.130
And so
1580
02:10:37.835 --> 02:10:41.375
if if if it's if there's, like, a Howie test for a security,
1581
02:10:41.994 --> 02:10:57.205
like, the wiz test for a shitcoin coin. Is, like, are they filling their bags with some kind of pre mine or issuing tokens? Which this was fully pre mine. The founders have the majority of it, I presume. I mean, you'd have to do some blockchain analysis to figure that out? Like gut wise, probably.
1582
02:10:57.905 --> 02:11:01.960
I mean, there's so many students now. I have no idea. It could be.
1583
02:11:02.440 --> 02:11:02.940
And
1584
02:11:03.560 --> 02:11:12.465
1585
02:11:15.244 --> 02:11:19.505
so trading fees on Bisk, you can pay with the BSQ token or Sats.
1586
02:11:20.679 --> 02:11:32.125
Yes. And I and I suggest you to pay in Sats and not participate. Well, the idea is that if you're a contributor, you can then use the BSQ token to pay for your trading fees. Right? So then
1587
02:11:32.425 --> 02:11:33.565
when when a contributor
1588
02:11:33.945 --> 02:11:34.925
receives BSQ,
1589
02:11:35.785 --> 02:11:37.565
is that newly minted BSQ?
1590
02:11:39.260 --> 02:11:46.400
1591
02:11:47.245 --> 02:11:49.585
with the DAO's consent and approval.
1592
02:11:50.205 --> 02:11:51.905
So when you do some
1593
02:11:52.445 --> 02:11:56.890
contribution of bisque, you then you can go on the DAO and make a compensation request
1594
02:11:57.370 --> 02:12:00.590
to approve your coloring of SATs into BSQ.
1595
02:12:00.970 --> 02:12:06.875
1596
02:12:07.275 --> 02:12:07.775
treasury.
1597
02:12:08.075 --> 02:12:11.215
Right? Right. That can then get distributed for projects?
1598
02:12:12.235 --> 02:12:12.735
1599
02:12:13.275 --> 02:12:14.335
there's essentially
1600
02:12:14.795 --> 02:12:28.845
a role called the Burning Man who takes all the Bitcoin revenue of Bisk and goes on the market and buys BSQ and burns it. And I think Oh, is that what's happening? And when you pay stats when you pay stats, it's essentially pumping the BSQ price?
1601
02:12:29.225 --> 02:12:31.485
Right. And so if it were balanced
1602
02:12:32.300 --> 02:12:39.119
and the amount of BSQ issued and the amount of BSQ burned was equal or the supply even decreasing,
1603
02:12:39.579 --> 02:12:40.960
then it would work. Right?
1604
02:12:42.215 --> 02:12:43.355
But in practice,
1605
02:12:44.534 --> 02:12:47.755
people can't resist the urge to print tokens. And, also,
1606
02:12:48.375 --> 02:13:05.525
some more BSQ is getting created than is being collected in trading fees, whether that's directly as BSQ or as Sats that get burned that get I mean, it's very buy BSQ and then burn it. Like, some sometimes this is quote unquote profitable when the supply goes down, and sometimes they're not, and they inflate the supply. And that's
1607
02:13:06.170 --> 02:13:14.110
okay for a company to issue more shares or redeem more shares. This happens all the time. But I think, again, going back to the 3 step test,
1608
02:13:15.185 --> 02:13:18.885
are the are the founders are the contributors to the project now
1609
02:13:20.065 --> 02:13:20.565
distracted
1610
02:13:21.665 --> 02:13:23.845
with the incentive to pump their bags?
1611
02:13:24.360 --> 02:13:42.304
Right. And this ruins the project in a lot of ways I feel. Right? Like, with mempool, obviously, we don't have any mempool token. We don't need a mempool token. We just have a Bitcoin treasury for our expenses and to pay salaries and and, you know, data center bills and everything, and it works extremely well. And if Bisk had simply set up a Bitcoin treasury
1612
02:13:42.690 --> 02:13:45.030
6 or 7 years ago when the project started,
1613
02:13:45.409 --> 02:13:45.909
then
1614
02:13:46.290 --> 02:13:53.285
they would be super, super wealthy now. Right? Right. I mean, 6 or 7 years ago, the price was, like, what, $100 in 2013.
1615
02:13:53.905 --> 02:14:10.895
1616
02:14:11.275 --> 02:14:13.455
1617
02:14:14.640 --> 02:14:16.420
then whoever controls that treasury
1618
02:14:16.880 --> 02:14:24.420
is like a target. Point of failure. Exactly. I mean, they are. But this still exists anyway with the Shitcoin too. Right. Right? So
1619
02:14:24.945 --> 02:14:29.185
1620
02:14:31.590 --> 02:14:38.969
1621
02:14:39.685 --> 02:14:46.985
get those voting rights, like, you can't You can't sell them. Yeah. And then if you block sending. And then if you
1622
02:14:47.525 --> 02:14:49.225
whenever someone pays their
1623
02:14:49.690 --> 02:14:51.310
trading fee revenue to Bisk,
1624
02:14:52.010 --> 02:14:52.510
that,
1625
02:14:53.770 --> 02:14:54.270
UTXO
1626
02:14:54.650 --> 02:15:20.065
1627
02:15:20.365 --> 02:15:44.310
1628
02:15:46.310 --> 02:15:48.410
Right. And operations of the site. So
1629
02:15:48.950 --> 02:15:53.210
yeah. This has Awesome. This has an agent code base. This has
1630
02:15:53.985 --> 02:15:58.885
a lot of technical debt. This has this tokenomics thing, which I think they need to fix.
1631
02:15:59.344 --> 02:16:00.965
But if it did get reimplemented
1632
02:16:01.460 --> 02:16:07.640
with the mobile app and the Raspberry Pi back end daemon that runs 24 hours and they fix this token thing to not be
1633
02:16:08.260 --> 02:16:24.110
1634
02:16:24.570 --> 02:16:25.070
1635
02:16:25.449 --> 02:16:28.670
even I felt like this is fucking when you dumped on retail?
1636
02:16:29.475 --> 02:16:32.375
No. I sold it to the burning man, and then he burned the BSQ.
1637
02:16:33.635 --> 02:16:46.045
But you're you're incentivized to pump the bags. Right? Oh, you sold it to the Burning Man, but it doesn't matter because it's a liquid market. So it's retail somewhere about it. Right. So that's the that's the unethical part I feel about it. Right? Right. Is that
1638
02:16:46.525 --> 02:16:49.505
people are speculating on these BSQ tokens,
1639
02:16:50.125 --> 02:16:52.145
and the contributors want to
1640
02:16:52.525 --> 02:16:55.104
pump the price so that they can dump at a higher valuation.
1641
02:16:56.399 --> 02:17:00.020
And it just ruins the project. Right? Well, if the incentive was,
1642
02:17:00.880 --> 02:17:03.859
1643
02:17:04.605 --> 02:17:07.905
free distributed service, you get higher trading revenues,
1644
02:17:08.686 --> 02:17:11.025
everyone wins, and they get paid in stats.
1645
02:17:11.660 --> 02:17:21.200
1646
02:17:22.285 --> 02:17:22.785
1647
02:17:24.605 --> 02:17:26.865
So, I mean, we're 2 hours and 20 minutes in.
1648
02:17:27.485 --> 02:17:27.806
I,
1649
02:17:29.149 --> 02:17:32.290
and this is a little bit I mean, this is completely unrelated to Bitcoin,
1650
02:17:33.310 --> 02:17:33.810
but,
1651
02:17:35.070 --> 02:17:37.649
you bought me and my lady a beautiful record
1652
02:17:39.525 --> 02:17:42.745
player, and, you set it up for us. You wanna talk a little bit
1653
02:17:43.285 --> 02:17:46.085
about your your love for panels? Or
1654
02:17:48.610 --> 02:17:52.390
Yeah. I guess I'm in infrastructure. He was in people think Wiz was
1655
02:17:52.690 --> 02:17:58.075
was born to run ISPs. I mean, he's running 2 ISPs right now. But if you watch them with a vinyl player,
1656
02:17:59.016 --> 02:18:01.115
you'd think of completely different ways.
1657
02:18:01.895 --> 02:18:04.260
1658
02:18:04.960 --> 02:18:12.340
You're like a kid in a candy shop. I mean, it's a whole new world. Living room. It's a whole yeah. I mean, it's a it's like a rabbit hole, right, in itself.
1659
02:18:12.875 --> 02:18:16.095
And, I live in Japan, so I have access to,
1660
02:18:16.795 --> 02:18:18.575
you know, 40 year old vintage,
1661
02:18:19.515 --> 02:18:24.580
but still mint condition vinyl record players from the, Yahoo Auction Market in Japan.
1662
02:18:25.120 --> 02:18:26.500
And first, I bought
1663
02:18:27.095 --> 02:18:33.755
this vinyl record player for Matt, and I opened it up in my office in Japan. I'm like, I am keeping this. I'm buying a second one.
1664
02:18:34.280 --> 02:18:43.820
And, you know, it's just this rabbit hole you go down. You have sister players. He's got one in Japan, and I got one here. Right. So we just set up one in Matt's house. And, yeah, it's
1665
02:18:45.145 --> 02:18:47.545
it's beautiful when you get it all put together and,
1666
02:18:49.145 --> 02:18:55.680
1667
02:18:56.380 --> 02:19:01.735
1668
02:19:02.274 --> 02:19:05.175
like servers and networks and ISP and cryptography,
1669
02:19:05.635 --> 02:19:07.335
it's so nice to
1670
02:19:08.230 --> 02:19:12.011
forget all that and play with a vinyl record player, which has no
1671
02:19:12.870 --> 02:19:16.170
microchips in it. Right? It's, like, a 100% analog.
1672
02:19:16.595 --> 02:19:22.435
Just pure magic. Just pure magic. I mean, if you put your ear close enough to the stylus, you can actually hear the
1673
02:19:23.770 --> 02:19:24.510
We did that.
1674
02:19:25.290 --> 02:19:27.210
1675
02:19:27.931 --> 02:19:29.950
your first show on dispatch to
1676
02:19:30.330 --> 02:19:31.630
consider getting a
1677
02:19:32.525 --> 02:19:39.460
old school record player that will last It's a very low time preference like device. Don't go out and buy a
1678
02:19:40.500 --> 02:19:54.885
1679
02:19:55.300 --> 02:19:55.800
probably
1680
02:19:56.260 --> 02:19:58.600
terrible quality and it'll break in a few years
1681
02:19:59.060 --> 02:20:02.155
versus the one that that Matt and I have is over 40 years
1682
02:20:03.115 --> 02:20:07.775
old. And it was built in So crazy. The peak of that, you know, format.
1683
02:20:08.155 --> 02:20:18.150
1684
02:20:18.864 --> 02:20:21.364
I know my lady is super excited about it, and,
1685
02:20:22.305 --> 02:20:34.460
you probably cost us a lot of sats and time because it's just the beginning of the rabbit hole, and I'm just gonna just gonna be a sats pit, big money pit. But, I'm very excited to go down it and go down it with you. You know, we're gonna basically
1686
02:20:35.375 --> 02:20:41.476
both that same player, different continents across the world, going down the rabbit hole at the same time, which is pretty fucking powerful.
1687
02:20:42.910 --> 02:20:48.450
So, I mean, as you know, I've you've been on the show multiple times. I like to wrap it up with final thoughts.
1688
02:20:50.686 --> 02:20:52.785
What final thoughts do you have for the freaks today?
1689
02:20:54.525 --> 02:21:02.811
1690
02:21:03.750 --> 02:21:14.365
you know, you have entire countries adopting it, and and you're gonna be able to use it all over at the grocery store, everything. I mean, this is it's like nothing we've ever even dreamed about just a few years ago. Right?
1691
02:21:14.960 --> 02:21:18.979
I it'll be so exciting to see how Bitcoin continues to evolve and grow
1692
02:21:19.920 --> 02:21:26.215
and and, how it will improve. And it happens so quickly. People feel Bitcoin is is so slow, but, really, in just a few years,
1693
02:21:26.755 --> 02:21:30.840
it's it's taken off so much just since last Miami. Right? 1 year ago, not even.
1694
02:21:31.320 --> 02:21:35.740
1695
02:21:36.920 --> 02:21:42.975
Things are moving fast. I know they feel like they're moving slow, but they're moving fast and slow at the same time, I guess, but
1696
02:21:43.595 --> 02:21:45.695
it's pretty crazy watching the whole thing.
1697
02:21:46.715 --> 02:21:53.460
1698
02:21:53.761 --> 02:21:54.261
Yes.
1699
02:21:54.641 --> 02:21:58.261
1700
02:21:58.815 --> 02:22:02.675
that these events have, you know, free access to the content online.
1701
02:22:04.815 --> 02:22:12.780
But the really powerful thing is just is just meeting Bitcoiners, spending time with Bitcoiners, and having online conversations that are not recorded, and,
1702
02:22:14.280 --> 02:22:17.335
bouncing ideas off each other is just being super super powerful.
1703
02:22:18.835 --> 02:22:21.814
And, I know it can be a little bit scary and
1704
02:22:22.835 --> 02:22:23.335
overwhelming,
1705
02:22:24.920 --> 02:22:31.580
but, you know, you don't have to give up that much. And you should be careful to a degree in terms of theft and privacy, but,
1706
02:22:34.225 --> 02:22:35.765
like, go to a local meetup
1707
02:22:36.385 --> 02:22:37.765
or, you know, just,
1708
02:22:38.065 --> 02:22:49.215
you know, meet people, talk to people, talk to like minded individuals. Because at the end of the day, open source code is extremely powerful, but it's only as powerful as as the individuals that choose to run it and build it and support it.
1709
02:22:50.895 --> 02:22:54.755
And if you don't have a meetup, consider starting a meetup, you know, and it doesn't have to be
1710
02:22:55.215 --> 02:22:58.035
super high production value. You guys can just meet in a bar,
1711
02:22:59.120 --> 02:23:06.900
and drink some beers and drink some whiskey and take it from there and do something more significant in the future. But I would say that, especially
1712
02:23:08.205 --> 02:23:09.425
for for developers,
1713
02:23:11.565 --> 02:23:14.785
like, one of the single most powerful things you can do
1714
02:23:15.500 --> 02:23:19.760
is is meet people in your local community, work together with them, build circular economies,
1715
02:23:20.220 --> 02:23:24.479
build local Bitcoin grassroots, Bitcoin economies is extremely, extremely powerful.
1716
02:23:24.845 --> 02:23:30.625
And one of the things I think a lot of people miss with the story of El Salvador is the story to me of El Salvador is not a story
1717
02:23:31.244 --> 02:23:41.790
of a president deciding top down that he was gonna make Bitcoin legal tender in this country. The story is a group of like minded individuals that started a grassroots local Bitcoin economy
1718
02:23:42.226 --> 02:23:50.886
that grew to the point that he couldn't ignore it anymore. He had a choice. Right? You either embrace it or fight it, and he chose to embrace it. So if you're out there and you're thinking about it,
1719
02:23:52.439 --> 02:23:56.300
you know, every every person you work with, every merchant you onboard,
1720
02:23:56.920 --> 02:23:59.660
every meetup you attend really does make a difference.
1721
02:24:00.266 --> 02:24:05.165
Our good friend, 6102 Bitcoin, who's still out there even though he's quiet on Twitter,
1722
02:24:05.625 --> 02:24:08.365
has a meetup website at bitcoin dashonly.com/
1723
02:24:10.250 --> 02:24:10.750
meetups.
1724
02:24:11.930 --> 02:24:16.750
You can see if there's one in your area. And like I said, if there isn't one, consider starting one.
1725
02:24:18.095 --> 02:24:19.155
Talking about 6102,
1726
02:24:19.695 --> 02:24:22.835
you know, I'm probably not long for the Twitter world myself.
1727
02:24:24.255 --> 02:24:27.235
So if you are a freak out there, consider joining our our
1728
02:24:27.561 --> 02:24:30.860
fantastic matrix chat, which I will show one more time. You go to silodispatch.com
1729
02:24:31.960 --> 02:24:33.500
and click that silo chat.
1730
02:24:34.601 --> 02:24:41.125
I love you freaks. You guys keep me going. I think together, we we we can win, we will win,
1731
02:24:41.585 --> 02:24:45.045
but it's gonna be it's not gonna be easy.
1732
02:24:45.561 --> 02:24:50.940
Personal responsibility is never the easier path. I appreciate all you who continue to support the show,
1733
02:24:51.320 --> 02:24:53.340
whether that's financially via SATS,
1734
02:24:54.806 --> 02:25:04.011
or by just sharing it with your friends and family. And once again, a reminder that CIL dispatch is available on all podcast apps. All you have to do is search CIL dispatch, and reviews do help.
1735
02:25:04.391 --> 02:25:05.610
They do make a difference.
1736
02:25:06.311 --> 02:25:09.130
So with all that said, I wanna thank Wiz. I wanna thank the freaks,
1737
02:25:09.670 --> 02:25:12.090
and, we'll see you next week. Cheers, guys.
1738
02:29:13.670 --> 02:29:16.330
But they just can't kill the beast.
1739
02:32:07.926 --> 02:32:08.825
Love you, freaks.
1740
02:32:09.285 --> 02:32:11.065
Stay humble. Stack stats.
