April 7, 2022
CD61: Live From Miami - Open Source Licenses with NVK, Tony, Paul, and Evan
Live from Miami with an in person audience. Sorry for the poor sound quality, tried our best, acoustics were not great in the venue.
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03:23 - First ever in-person dispatch in Miami
08:04 - Change in Coldcard's open source license
25:34 - Debate on open source licenses and restrictions
42:36 - Difference between hardware and software
42:56 - Handling competitors and copycats
43:45 - The importance of trust in business
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:27:54 PM
Duration: 3753.900
Channels: 1
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What is up Miami?
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To everyone listening,
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from afar through the broadcast, we apologize ahead of time for this audio quality is horrible.
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Having a great time to get back to some peers in the anniversary of executive order 6102 when MTR trying to steal all our grandparents gold and Satoshi used to invalid her birthday.
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So they're our priority, and if this broadcast doesn't come out with quality, I will try and upload a better quality one afterwards.
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So with all that said, I think this is our first ever it is our first ever
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really in person dispatch. Last year in Miami, we did 1 in our penthouse Airbnb
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because we thought it was gonna be 200 k by conference day.
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But this one, we actually may have been trying to make it as soon as possible. I wanna I wanna thank,
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Ross for for putting this all together. He he was really fucking awesome when he came to me. He was like, we're doing good jobs in Miami. We got Jay coming to town. We would love to see this batch opened up.
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It really could not have happened without him since you're sitting in.
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With all that said, I think we have our great guests here. All of them are return guests on. So the dispatch, we got MBK. How's it going MBK?
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Hey. Hey.
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Hi. Can you oh, it's it's Is it working? Yeah. Just speak loudly. Yeah. So yeah. Hey. Nice to be here. It's like Bitcoin Twitter.
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Thanks, MBK. We got our good friend Evan here. Evan, who this what's up? Hey, y'all. How's everyone doing today?
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Thanks, Evan. Do you wanna go? What are you saying?
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I just want just wanna say, you know, it's been awesome seeing the show grow the last year. Had to for putting out high quality signal every week.
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Just
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humbled and honored to be a little part of it.
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Thanks, man. That means a lot.
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And thanks to all the priests that made this possible, especially our not super turn guests. Paul, how's it going? Hello. Thank you for having me. We got Paul Miller here. What's up, Paul?
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And now we have Tony. How's it going, Tony? Good with you.
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So I can't We became friends from Sid. I'll dispatch Chad. Really? Yeah. That's because he was chatting, and I was on an episode, and I was like, I like I like this the way this guy thinks. The cut of his jib. I like the cut of his jib.
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And now you guys are just constantly working together. Right? Look at this as jib.
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So where do we wanna start? What are we what do you guys wanna talk about? I have a pretty open ended
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I was thinking
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we only have an hour. I was like, I don't want to make it a little bit juicy, and we have MBK here, and we have Paula here.
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So we have a little conversation about open source licenses?
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Yes.
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So, I mean, I I guess I guess to get started I guess to get started, why don't you go through MBK?
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Your your thoughts for the change in cold cards open source license, and then we'll have
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one of these guys jump in. Yeah. So
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I I think
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I think
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what happened with us is that we are realized that
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the business
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is as important to the security of the device
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as the software and the device itself.
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So you cannot make,
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like, really secure hardware without having a profitable business.
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Right?
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And Coinstrike has always been sort of like it's a lifestyle business for us. We do it because we want to.
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And
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we figured out that unless you have the the rotating revenue and capital
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to invest in, you
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know, security research and you have, like, real equipment
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and
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you have, like, you have to have, like, very large orders of manufacturers so you get the the good
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stuff that's under NDA from the manufacturers of the chips. Because you wanna know all those little flaws.
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And to do that is very hard when you have
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very turnkey cloners.
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Right?
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You can have somebody,
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you know, sort of
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contribute to your cold base,
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that'll be great. But when people just take and don't give,
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it makes it so that it's very hard to have a business around it. And,
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you know,
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we
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for us, it's more important to have a a secure device
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that that it is for us to
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to have something that is, like, pure on the on the license base. So so let's just unpack that a little bit. So so the people who don't know what the controversy is,
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Cold Guard was historically
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a free open source license that was non restricted.
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Anyone can modify it. Anyone can change the code so they could they could add to it. They could distribute it. They could sell it. They could do whatever the hell they want to do with it.
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And then this company Foundation Devices came out.
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And we didn't wanna mention it by name, but I just did. And they took that code base, and they raised a bunch of VC money off of it,
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before they even shipped anything.
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And then
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and then MBK
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changed his license
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to a more restricted license that was not free and open source, that was source vehicle
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that basically allows people to modify it, but they can't distribute and sell it. Yeah. So it's it's even more permissive than that.
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So we what we had is actually an extremely restrictive license,
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copy left. Right? You're restricted
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to have
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the left
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like, that that license has to survive.
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Right? So that means that anybody who copied the source code needs to make it public again. It was specifically GPM. Right? It's it's specifically GPM. And
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and and funny enough, you actually required the state to enforce that license.
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So it's very non libertarian.
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And funny enough, Satoshi chose, in my opinion, MIT because you can build a business on top of MIT, and you can have the whole base inside your whole base and do whatever you want. So, you know, in my opinion, truly
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false
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is MIT. Right? GPL is a complicated license that is a product that's of its size.
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And,
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I think it's about the same. Anyways, so
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it's it's
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it's important
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that,
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you know, you have to essentially, like, be honest about the fact that, like, if there is people contributing,
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it's great.
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But we were essentially a single source
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source code. Right? Meaning, we pay people ourselves
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to write that source code.
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You know, we have, like, the contributor here and there, but, you know, 90 and a half percent of the source code is ours. So it's not like a community project.
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It's not like
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you're just converting
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the work of a lot of people into a new license and sort of screwing out. There's no rug pull. It's just ours. So much so that we were allowed to do that change.
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Anyways
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so so that's where it stands. We we just we just don't wanna be in the same position that a lot of open source projects are, where the only people who reap the benefit
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are, say, Amazon,
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Google,
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and the developers are then laughed sort of like begging for money.
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And, you know, it's just not something I'm I'm for. So how could a business be competitive with your business
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if you were using the same open source code? If you're saying
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that that your business model doesn't work if anybody can easily clone you,
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how does their business model work? How does any is nobody making any money? So, you know,
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hardware is hard. Right? So there's, like, hard sort of, like, science involved and and, like, very sort of
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it's
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it's a it's a a much larger upfront investment in codes that you'd normally find in standard software projects. Right?
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And,
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we lose in different ways. For example, there is the affinity scamming,
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right, where,
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said cloner will go in podcast and say, hey. This is as secure as this other device.
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Right? This is as good. And then they fuck up,
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and
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then people think that because they have the same code as we do
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you know what I mean? Now we have a problem too. So for example, this device that's a corner is using a pound secure element.
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Right? There's not a lot of information out yet because everybody's on their NDA, but,
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everybody has moved on, for example, from the the secure element version. They haven't because they don't have inventory of the new secured chip. Right? But now, again, it's just saying, hey. But we are the same security architecture. Right? So so there is the issue with that.
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And then there's the issue of, like, chipping away from our market, Right? From the product that we built, the brand that we built, and and all the effort that we put into this.
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I just I don't it's not my spirit to stand for that. So I guess my main two objection are are the first one is is the idea that I'm gonna have the state solve this, which is any any license that's at all restricted That's GPL. It's GPL, the state. All licensing all licensing is saying that the state is gonna solve Sure. Other than fully permissive.
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But then the other side would be from a security standpoint.
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I feel like I would be reticent
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to look at your code
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based on how you have,
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talked about people who have copy pasted your code.
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Yeah. And I was like, oops. Am I I was I was I was browsing through here to check your Yes. Security.
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I'm my finger slipped. I hit command c, and now I have one of your functions in my code base, and you're gonna, like, drag me. We don't care.
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So our license That's one hell of a finger screen. So so yeah. That's that's, it's kinda funny because they use the codes that we wrote a 100% in their marketing materials, a picture. It's kinda hilarious. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The comments are changed. Yeah. The comments were changed. A lot of people pick up on that. But
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the point is this,
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first,
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you know, most people are not like, it kinda sucks, but they're not qualified to review this kind of security level. There's, like, very few people that can.
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What we need is people to review that is is building. Right? What you need is to write them, Russ. The what? You need to rewrite it or not. Right. Exactly.
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Rest is a shit break.
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So
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so, anyway, so
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all licenses are state based, of course. Right? Otherwise,
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like, you know, if you go back to, if you're gonna go back to proper libertarian principles, you'd say the way to resolve that is by having trade secrets. You cannot have trade secrets in open source
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by definition. Right? So those two things are kinda still incompatible. We don't have a good answer for that.
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The other thing is, you know,
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raising VC on top of somebody else's code is also fiat. Right? It's also based on the same system that licenses are based on violence, whatever you wanna call it. So,
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you know, in a world in which
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I can build my thing and there isn't VCs available for a cloner to go shop around my stuff, it's cool. We're we're listen. We tried.
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That was the goal. We're gonna try to make this that way. It didn't work, so we switched it. Right? We're a defensive company.
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We will behave defensively.
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Right?
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And I guess, like, another
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yeah. So so there really is is is the issue with the VCs that they will just willy nilly sort of, you know, invest in a company like that, probably because they didn't even know that that it was essentially on source code.
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And we actually put out an extremely permissive license.
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It's extremely permissive. You can do whatever you want to the call. You can copy. You can sell it. You can do whatever you want. You just cannot build a cloning company.
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That's the only restriction.
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Yeah. What is it simply? You can't make a commercial product out of it? Exact that's it. So you can't just you can sell it. No. You can sell yours.
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So you as the user is protected.
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What do you mean you can sell yours? Your your unit.
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Right? It's your property.
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Oh, and you can sell your individual company. You you yeah. Exactly.
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You just can't start a competing. Hey.
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You only bought 1.
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Right? You only bought 1. Right? I mean, I lost some all my Bitcoin and Treasure fishing fishing hacking. I don't use I don't use your devices.
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So, I mean, you guys are all major proponents
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that free up to our software.
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Do you not have any
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comments for MBK? Is he in the right year? Is he
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Yeah. I mean, I like, at the end of the day, like, we're
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all having our personal money. Like, you know, we're we're running, you know, we're we're using, like, an open source, and,
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no permission. Like, we don't need the same permission. Right? But the real kinda turnaround, we, like, all have permission, like,
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you know, government,
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permission based combos.
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So, like, at the end of the day, like, you know, like, what Paul said, you know, we are asking the states for divorce licenses, basically. Yep.
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That's just kind of the reality of the situation right now. Like, you know, if you wanna like, honestly, I would be all for, like,
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and on out there just, like, take just, like, ripping off, like, you know, just licenses left and right or, like, code that's licensed left and right and not give it a fuck because it's like, well, if they created this anonymous, like, quote, unquote business and anonymous, you know, like, you know, they're not gonna solve they're not gonna go to the state to solve the problems. You know? I would be all for,
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you know, quote, unquote rip offs, you know, some of the stuff. I would love to get into a situation where we aren't going to the state to, like, have businesses we operate, and then and then we can actually kind of solve all that. I guess, like, the reality of the situation is, like, you know, that's kind of the environment we're all in right now. We have to sort of be offensive.
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Yeah. So I don't know. My thoughts have sort of, like, changed over over the last couple of years. Just just to add to that,
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I think there's a general
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sort
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of camaraderie
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and sort of, like, morality that comes with all this.
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You know, there is a difference between you contributing to a cold base and then forking off because you don't like it or because you wanna try something different
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as opposed to just taking the whole code base, removing the comments,
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and starting a company.
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Right? That's what I call a dick move.
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Well, that's why my original suggestion is just add to your license that if I clone this and start a company, I'm a dick.
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Yeah. No. No. We we actually I call it a dick. Asset. Yeah. The dick clause.
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Yeah. Put a dick clause in there, and they have to keep the dip. It it it would Yeah. It's like a virus. On the screen.
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So yeah.
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It's but how do you want? So, like, you know, if they if they get hacked, it because they were actually bad at what they're doing. You know? Well, it's like, well, it says I'm a dick. I don't know. That's right. I don't know. Like You know, funny enough, we actually thought about making a joke license where but for real on the product, it's like everyone can use this for commercial purposes but
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you.
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I know you do. I mean, so I I just to zoom out, like, I why I like open source so much, I think we because we live in a world with so much regulation.
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Like, I just thought the other like, a little shower thought of of,
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we have sales tax. Right? So every time you wanna sell something so every time you transfer ownership with, you know, paid for by money,
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there's a tax.
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That
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limits all activity where we might wanna have a high frequency exchange of goods. Like, I don't I couldn't even imagine, like, why
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someone is, like, selling a toaster back and forth, you know, like, a 1000 times a second. Like, that's literally impossible. So I think
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every, regulation
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has a sort of hidden cost like that. And I think,
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information
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cannot be owned. That's a ridiculous concept.
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And so when we add some state based enforcement,
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and now, like, you know, Katy Perry's getting sued
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for her song because it sounds a little bit like other song. Well, it turns out most of the music I like sounds like other music. Yep. And so now you you know, so we're always when we're we're allowing the state to dictate our actions in this way, we're really limiting the what is possible
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and and hacking with,
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with code, we're we're limiting
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who can be involved, how fast we iterate, who can verify,
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you know, who can run by, who can who can sell it. And so I'm, you know, I'm just I'm just worried about it in in that sense. That that said, I haven't built a business
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based on,
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you know, like a hardware business based on open source code. That is,
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a pretty rare thing right now. It is. And there is a reason why you don't see open hardware out there. Right?
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It's not like you can just, like,
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sit
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and apply your knowledge and boom, you have a product. Right? With hardware, like, you have to buy all this stuff. You have to either rage with all the stuff that has hard costs. Right? There's all this overhead that's completely upfront.
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That's your r and d, right, that you have to recuperate if you wanna still exist.
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Right? And if you have unfair competition,
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right, you're gonna it's possible that you simply won't exist, right, because they can undercut you because they haven't spent all the money doing their r and d. So they can technically
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take the margin out of their product, right, and just go compete with you unfairly.
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This is another shout out. Sorry. Sorry about too many shout outs right now. But,
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we we basically we
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had an industrial revolution,
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and we made so many products cheaper, and we were kind of ramping up in the, our civilization level.
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And then I don't know what year it was, but so we kinda leveled up, and we never got to the point of industrializing
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industrial
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I I I think we did. Like, if you if you look at iPhone
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for for all the hate that Apple gets,
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it is absolutely
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remarkable what's inside here. Like, this is this is like
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a pinnacle of civilization what's what's literally done inside this thing. You have one of the most modern computers
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that exists. You have 17 radios.
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This thing can talk in any country.
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Okay?
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It's just
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most people just can't understand
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side. Right? What I'm saying is that we, like, democratize
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having service because we made dishwashers.
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But we didn't democratize
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industrial production.
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Like, it's they're very because The production we did is the inventing of the things that go into production that has it. Right? Because you still need a human to invest time, capital, opportunity, cost to go invent something.
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Like, we don't make pull cards in my house.
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Right?
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We
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we have a factory that then makes cold cards. It happens that we now, like, have most of the production of the factory. But, like,
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it really is just us sort of inventing a thing, make it into a thing that can be actually produced
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in quantity, which is completely different. Right?
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It's not like a Raspberry Pi that, like, has some stuff on top that like, no. This is, like, a thing
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that has access to parts, has access to manufacturing methods,
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right, that then goes into production and can be sort of, like, made many times so people can sort of use it in an industrial capacity.
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And and I think, like, a huge part of the FOSS movement,
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especially because Stalin was a bit commie,
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is that that's why I'm more on the MIT side, right, on that sort of discussion, is that
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people don't understand business.
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So it pisses me off. I know so many people who are absolutely brilliant, not making money.
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I want them to make money to make even more brilliant things.
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Yeah.
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But I but I also think of I think of open source as as as really as as charity.
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Like, it is a gift you're giving to the world. I And and you're trying to you you instead of
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instead of making a product that is a one to one exchange,
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they get something out of it, you get something out of it. You're you're giving something to basically everyone all at once. People are not equal.
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And,
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and charity is not
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a way of moving society forward. I I am a huge fan of charity.
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Love you. Yeah. So, like, I love charity on a personal level. Right? Like and helping people that may need.
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But charity
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is not how you invent everything.
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Like,
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again, I like to use that for example because they are as close as it gets. Right? Like, it's also adult days to have real units.
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But, like, you wouldn't be able to invent, like,
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a a process to make Sapphire in scale if it wasn't for Apple. Well, we also you know, we can't, do spatial of the scale. You know, that was just like Fiat
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folly, you know. Like, let's do all these ridiculous engineering things that we can do because we're stealing everybody's money. They can do those things because they have, you know, sort a sort of a monopoly position. Well, it's not really. I mean, like, you know, Android copied
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most of the things that they did successfully. Right? So much so that now we have 2 options, a bar of soap and a bar of soap. Right? There is no creativity in phones anymore. We've achieved
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phone Nirvana in terms of design, which is
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flat screen with some 50 cameras on the other side. Right?
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Because this is this is what people need. Right now, all the advancements that they're doing, which are absolutely remarkable,
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are inside the box. I don't know that it's exactly what what people need. We don't really know what people need. Most people can't make what they want. So people can't make their own tools, so they have to receive
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tools from whoever has enough capital to build. If, you know, if you ask a user what he wants, is that meme of Homer Simpson making his car.
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Remember? Like, with all the poster,
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the dash, and the The the kids are in the back. You know? So Exactly. Right?
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Users don't know what they want because they don't know what's possible either. Right?
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It's,
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trying to make a business out of open source. And listen, listen, we still have another 50 projects that are all open source, and we contribute to open source, and we found open source, and all we should. It's just this specific whole base has some restriction. Right?
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It's not simple. Like and there is very few companies that do it, like, especially on hardware. And, like, I'm trying stuff out.
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Some things work, some things won't, some things people love, some people who, like, hate us. You know? It's like
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So,
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since the cloner came out,
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do you think it's significantly
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her coin cut's business? No.
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I mean, you know, I know the numbers because,
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you know, people people talk, but, like, it's it's not like no. It didn't. So
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maybe it It may be too much difference to your bottom line if we had a full flash license. So here's an interesting thing.
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Since they started,
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all their users are asking for all the features that we added after the license change.
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So they haven't
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they haven't introduced any single feature
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or bug fix since they changed the code. You know, they changed some stuff based on their things. But,
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and their users are asking for the stuff that we added after, and they can't just pull and merge.
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It's fascinating, isn't it? That they were not capable of doing those things, but they would get those things for free
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if we change the license. So who knows? Maybe they go out of business, we change the license back.
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I think you have like a really,
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you know, passionate consumer base, but you have a great product. And I think, ultimately, even if you did have that false license, I think you guys would continue to strive and prosper. Probably. That that's that's all I really say on, on this run. Well, thanks for liking the product.
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But yeah. I mean,
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I really don't have a problem
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really with these restrictive licenses
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in commercial sense as long as the users really,
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you know, have the liberty to do with it what they want.
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More so, I I have more problems with people, like, you know, falsely
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advertising their licenses fast when they're not. I think you guys did a good job switching in on the website to a big source viewable. That's that's a good step. You know, I did that just because sort of tired of drama. I still disagree with OSI. I I there's some nuance to the debate. OSS
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versus FOS.
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What's what's OSI? So OSI is this org that claims to be the arbiter of what definitions exist for, FOS, non FOS, FOS.
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So I think there is a I think we'd lose a lot in this space because it turns off a ton of extremely talented people that are not into
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the true,
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like,
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fully
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open source thing, the free is free as in freedom,
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right,
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of that license,
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they they would gladly contribute,
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and their contribution would be massive. There's a lot of people, like, that are incredibly talented working in a basement somewhere getting paid that would totally contribute to this if they could have some restrictions.
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And and I think there's a massive difference. Right? Because
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people try to use the FOSS, meaning free open source versus open source, just open
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source, as a way to send back projects that are not free open source. So they say, you know, oh, if you if you if you're just source viewable, you're closed source.
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Right? Because they're trying to
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to, like, guess, like,
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the fact that it is viewable
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and it is verifiable
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and it is maybe editable and poppable.
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Because they may have a competing product. So they they want to sort of, like, create this this flame wars around us, and it's such a shame
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because the only people who who gain from that is, you know, is Amazon and Google. Like, I mean,
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the money that Amazon and Google make from open source software that devs are now making is monumental.
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I mean, AWS makes more money than Amazon
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products,
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and it's all, like, essentially false. Isn't that an argument for GPL over MIT? No. Because GPL wouldn't matter. Right? They because they don't they don't use GPL software
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because they don't want, like, a poison pill of needing to contribute back to open source in that situation.
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Product in your stack, right, the rest of the stack pretty much has to be opened up. Kinda. So, like, if someone wants to, you know, perhaps,
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you know, pull in an open source project into maybe a more greater commercial thing, maybe they're getting out grants,
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you know, in a lot of cases, they might ask you to move your license from GPL to MIT or at least do, like, a dual licensing thing. That's, like, the big thing
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between
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the Yeah. License. Yeah. CopyLabs gets very complicated very fast,
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and and it gets complicated very fast because people get lawyers involved very fast too,
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because it's copied left.
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Anyways
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Well, I mean, thank you guys for this conversation. I mean, I feel like everyone was
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pretty fair with it. I was hoping it was gonna be juicier.
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Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
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It's not me.
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Oh, it it's me. Yeah. You're Wait. You know, can we get a little juicier? Yeah. Cameron. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So my so my main problem
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with 8 big source licenses. I mean, number 1, misrepresenting
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what kind of license you really are. That's a really big one.
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But the other thing that really grinds my gear is, when you when you steal someone's source code.
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And,
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Rodolfo,
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this sort of goes to you. This is not about the treasure license,
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but rather an another project. I feel like, you personally took out from,
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and, it's it's called Bitcoin bounties.
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And and funny enough, the the funny thing about this is that we have the guy
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who started the Yeah. He is.
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No. No. No. No. He he he's on the panel right here, and, I'm gonna I'm gonna just set this bottom up in the stinker and some follow-up.
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Yeah.
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And We are listed there.
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It decays the hands slipped in the hands. Yeah. 100%.
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Yeah. Yeah. No. I was so I was so grateful because it
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here's my mindset.
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This is charity.
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Yeah. No. That's a full charity version. We pay for people to develop that site
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and, like, here. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love it.
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See, this is how bad the licenses are. If there is no license
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on a project that's out there,
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you essentially have to inform that it's closed source.
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But the source is open and it's beautiful.
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It's a clusterfuck. So, like, what happens what happens, you know, post type of big organization,
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post Bitcoin world, the state's way smaller.
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Do we just does everyone just use everyone's codes, copyright No.
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People are gonna move back to the old days, which is trade secrets.
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I see, this is like a lot of open source people don't understand
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that, like, the default state
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of a of, like, a business,
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right,
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is to protect
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the value that it created so that it can generate a profit. Right?
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You know, we're all more permissive. We're all trying to build a better world, so we're trying to do this things in an open source way. Sometimes it fits, sometimes it succeeds.
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But,
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the default place before this licenses
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was
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what means this this practice
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himself as a secret.
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Right? So if people cannot find a way to protect all the effort they put in,
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me, if they are building stuff that can be easily sort of, like, wrapped up and clone, is they just close it.
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That that's kind of what happened to Ledger, by the way. Ledger,
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way, way back then was BTC chip. That was the name of the product.
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It was actually old,
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but but your phone is starting to show up. Transfer
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actually changed their license to Microsoft's
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viewable library only. And then they got so much flack from the community
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that they they then rolled back that commit to GitHub and change the GPL
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from MIT.
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So they themselves are the same thing. It's just we don't give a fuck. So, like, we're like, okay. We're gonna move this to something that we think should be. I I just feel like it's
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what what are why are they so scared?
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What is it? They're scared. It's like you write something down and people copy it and do
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What are you so scared of? What are you so scared of? You're making the strength. You have the the the beloved cold car. We're gonna make peace of position in state. Well, but but you're asking your mom, the government, to protect Yes.
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The same way you're asking your doctor to make sure your airplane is checked before we flew you.
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You know, send it for me. No. Yeah. Yeah. I would abolish the TSA. I mean, literally, I I No. No. That's not the TSA, the FAA.
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Well, this is Boston too.
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We have a low light frequency because of all this spacing. We don't have flying. We have all these regulations that make our our our business coming
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a 100 times more expensive than that after the year. Preaching to the fire,
403
00:34:13.765 --> 00:34:20.745
The problem is we do live in a fiat world. Yeah. And as long as we have fiat capital available
404
00:34:21.045 --> 00:34:25.600
for somebody to just clone stuff. Okay? Because here's what could happen. Okay?
405
00:34:26.060 --> 00:34:28.160
So let's say it is still subpar.
406
00:34:28.460 --> 00:34:30.480
Right? The device that a clone has.
407
00:34:31.100 --> 00:34:31.600
But
408
00:34:32.565 --> 00:34:38.025
they find they're very good at sales to receive. They find, say, a 100 x capital.
409
00:34:38.645 --> 00:34:45.089
They could do exactly what Uber did to taxi drivers. They can go. They lower the price. They take everybody out of the What is?
410
00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:50.475
They lower yeah. And then, you know, they I'm not gonna be your They raise. Before people over
411
00:34:57.515 --> 00:34:58.015
they
412
00:34:58.549 --> 00:35:03.930
They they they they run the pool. They took half of the taxi drivers out of the out of business. Right?
413
00:35:04.309 --> 00:35:11.405
And then plain matured. Right? Because the the poor tax drivers in Florida don't have a choice. They have to buy that stupid fucking with that. Right?
414
00:35:12.025 --> 00:35:19.150
And so they have to charge them a lot more. And their price is actually gonna be there too. It's just like you can't escape the tentacles of the state
415
00:35:19.609 --> 00:35:20.829
leaving in a world
416
00:35:21.210 --> 00:35:26.265
that we live in. The state is designed to have you have a successful business, you
417
00:35:26.805 --> 00:35:36.480
become friends with the state, and you have a state to, like, get to your position. And what we need is a lot more freedom especially when you business going down the business all the time, failing
418
00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:39.040
all the time because they're not actually
419
00:35:39.340 --> 00:35:41.920
serving people anymore. How they put in
420
00:35:42.265 --> 00:35:47.005
the VCs in that? Because see Screw the VCs. Yeah. But but see,
421
00:35:47.465 --> 00:35:55.210
you know, you Not awesome. Yeah. No. Listen. I know some good VCs. VCs, but, like, just in general, the the the dirty VC, not the gig VC. Right?
422
00:35:57.270 --> 00:35:59.290
So you you don't live in a vacuum.
423
00:35:59.735 --> 00:36:06.395
Right? You can still have somebody come and essentially undercut you by getting free product for a year.
424
00:36:06.695 --> 00:36:08.635
Right? And then you go out of business.
425
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:14.180
Right? And then they jack up the price again. Consumers are just too fucked, and the consumers not have a worse product.
426
00:36:19.155 --> 00:36:21.255
This happens in a lot of this is literally,
427
00:36:21.795 --> 00:36:25.575
Peter Teals, like, model. It's like you find an industry.
428
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:29.579
Right? You you break the legs of every competitor. You become a monopoly.
429
00:36:30.279 --> 00:36:31.019
And then
430
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.660
and then you go and you check up the price.
431
00:36:34.585 --> 00:36:35.405
So so
432
00:36:35.785 --> 00:36:41.885
I still don't have an answer on how to handle that model. Right? If I find that answer
433
00:36:42.185 --> 00:36:43.245
and that includes
434
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.700
having even more permissive licenses,
435
00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:46.740
I would.
436
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.380
I just don't have an answer.
437
00:36:52.555 --> 00:36:54.974
Abolish the FAA. Abolish the FAA.
438
00:36:55.434 --> 00:36:56.974
I don't know, man. See,
439
00:36:57.355 --> 00:36:59.214
if you look at the accident rate
440
00:36:59.580 --> 00:37:02.400
on, private airplanes, which is 2 FAA certified,
441
00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:09.435
but now the pilots are not as much because it's the duty who flies on Sunday, they fall a lot more than flying for March. The FAA
442
00:37:09.815 --> 00:37:11.675
was dismissed to the mass mandate.
443
00:37:12.135 --> 00:37:16.635
You know, I I struggle with this a little bit because, see, amateur radio, right,
444
00:37:18.040 --> 00:37:18.859
is a licensed,
445
00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:22.140
privilege in pretty much every country. Right? Because,
446
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.260
you know, with the right gear, you can literally stop all flights
447
00:37:26.035 --> 00:37:27.095
within, like,
448
00:37:27.395 --> 00:37:29.015
30 kilometers of your house.
449
00:37:30.035 --> 00:37:33.240
And and it's, like, talk about 2, $300 worth of gear. Right?
450
00:37:34.580 --> 00:37:48.805
So what they did is they licensed everybody because at least the people learn how to do it. Like, I hate licenses. I hate the barrier of entry for people to have this thing, but I also don't have a good answer to that because Yeah. Just round all the planes. They'll figure it out.
451
00:37:49.825 --> 00:38:06.785
It is, it's like I I I I couldn't understand all the last time. Already told all the timelines, but, you know, the reason we have Wi Fi is the 2.4 gigahertz Yes. Not used because our bodies are made of water and water absorbs 2.4 gigahertz so that so it's like it's like the shit coin of Spectrum.
452
00:38:07.120 --> 00:38:21.414
So nobody wanted it. And, and and so they like, what what if we tried, like, to solve all this interference and they made white line because it was it was unreserved. But, you know, 2.4 actually goes through walls, which is quite nice,
453
00:38:21.795 --> 00:38:29.809
while the original cordless phones were about 7 to a 100 megahertz. Right? And that's the same as your microwave. That's why your cordless phone never worked to the microwave or so on,
454
00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:32.925
but and it shows the leaks. But,
455
00:38:33.365 --> 00:38:36.345
those didn't go through well as through walls as well.
456
00:38:37.205 --> 00:38:39.065
Yeah. No. Spectrum is complicated.
457
00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:46.200
But it it it gets tricky. Right? I mean, we do live in complex societies with very complex, like, infrastructure.
458
00:38:46.660 --> 00:38:50.040
Maybe that's a product of government getting their hands in everything.
459
00:38:51.205 --> 00:38:57.945
But, you know, I don't wanna also subscribe to the all or nothing either. Right? I mean, like, you know, no government, but governance.
460
00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:07.160
Right? Like, humans still need to organize themselves and and find, like, some way around that. And as we invent technologies that have, like, more outsized,
461
00:39:08.575 --> 00:39:10.595
secondary effects and more externalities,
462
00:39:11.055 --> 00:39:14.710
you do have to find ways of of, you know, dealing with that.
463
00:39:15.270 --> 00:39:20.650
It's like, you know, your neighbor not having, you know, fire alarms and you having addressable ones. Right?
464
00:39:21.510 --> 00:39:23.849
Do we want to manage for alarms? No.
465
00:39:25.015 --> 00:39:27.195
Heat's house could get my house on fire.
466
00:39:27.495 --> 00:39:28.555
All fire alarms.
467
00:39:32.535 --> 00:39:33.035
Anyways,
468
00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:40.670
I mean, at least, like, firewall on Craigslist. You can still have your own firewall on it if you want. Right? Yeah. So I could. So,
469
00:39:41.765 --> 00:39:44.105
I mean, we have 20 minutes left. I
470
00:39:44.405 --> 00:39:47.865
you know, one of the close course of the dispatch needs audience participation.
471
00:39:48.700 --> 00:39:51.520
And, obviously, you guys are in the live chat right now.
472
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:55.840
I was kinda thinking about it. Like,
473
00:40:05.990 --> 00:40:09.930
I see a hand over there. There is a hand. Can someone pass
474
00:40:11.350 --> 00:40:13.770
pass him on mic? Hello, bud.
475
00:40:15.635 --> 00:40:16.135
Thanks,
476
00:40:19.352 --> 00:40:19.852
Bob.
477
00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:16.320
Will publish open source partner schematics.
478
00:41:17.580 --> 00:41:19.920
And the idea is that they're trying to attract business
479
00:41:20.780 --> 00:41:21.280
by
480
00:41:21.625 --> 00:41:25.645
democratizing the knowledge, and they have a specialty to build them.
481
00:41:26.185 --> 00:41:32.720
So that's not obviously you know, and so, basically, you have the United States IP heavy, a lot of big innovators.
482
00:41:34.140 --> 00:41:37.279
But where you guys should make it, you you make it to China.
483
00:41:37.795 --> 00:41:42.375
So I I think there's something really interesting there, but I think what the the big principle is is, like,
484
00:41:42.835 --> 00:41:51.270
trade secrets and redeem and don't live with fear. Like, just stop me. I'm so afraid. So this is fascinating thing. Do you know why
485
00:41:51.570 --> 00:41:54.630
China does that? Because China doesn't build software.
486
00:41:54.935 --> 00:41:56.235
It only builds the hardware.
487
00:41:56.535 --> 00:42:08.320
And the hardware can be reverse engineered. So you take the design they already know. Like, you know, my design goes to Chinese factory. They can just, like, you know, in in 10 minutes, remake my software. To be reversed.
488
00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:09.920
Well, yes.
489
00:42:10.220 --> 00:42:16.835
But the kind of talent and the kind of culture you need to have to make good software still doesn't exist in China.
490
00:42:17.215 --> 00:42:22.880
Right? So much so that most of Chinese projects are still still have either cracked software.
491
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:25.840
Right? I mean, if that anybody use DJI,
492
00:42:27.740 --> 00:42:29.040
drones. Right? I mean,
493
00:42:29.885 --> 00:42:30.545
it's something,
494
00:42:31.645 --> 00:42:35.345
the app that they use. But the hardware is absolutely brilliant.
495
00:42:35.885 --> 00:42:37.025
Right? So
496
00:42:37.830 --> 00:42:42.810
hardware and software are very different. And but when you make the whole banana as a company,
497
00:42:43.110 --> 00:42:45.130
right, you have both
498
00:42:45.765 --> 00:42:46.265
problems
499
00:42:46.805 --> 00:42:48.665
and both solutions. Right? So it's like,
500
00:42:49.525 --> 00:43:03.115
you really try to, like, straddle a very complicated line there of, like, how do you handle this stuff? Right? How do you handle competitors? How do we handle the factory trying to copy you? For example, we don't make the stuff in China mostly for security. But
501
00:43:04.555 --> 00:43:06.015
it's not a simple thing.
502
00:43:07.035 --> 00:43:08.095
And all the chips,
503
00:43:08.475 --> 00:43:17.869
there really is where the magic is, not the PCB and, you know, some stupid LC circuit or whatever. Like, the actual chips are fully fully closed
504
00:43:18.305 --> 00:43:34.000
nice. I'm worried about that when we have a lot of special magic and maybe there's an argument against trade secrets. But, like, you know, we are it is not a guarantee that civilization progresses up and we get smarter and we know more and we learn more. It's very easy to lose knowledge with civilizationally
505
00:43:34.964 --> 00:43:45.079
and to drift. And if we don't manage to pass along information because we're gonna have to hide it or we protect it, some people don't feel like they can look at it.
506
00:43:45.619 --> 00:43:56.865
But that's why, like, I I wish we had just, like, better, more of compass because none of the shit would be necessary. Right? If people just didn't come and, like, do the business on top of your stuff immediately,
507
00:43:57.885 --> 00:43:59.984
you know, we wouldn't have changed our license.
508
00:44:00.290 --> 00:44:05.190
Right? Or, like, other people would have contributed back. They they could have contributed back to our project.
509
00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:08.950
Right? And then we would not feel morally entitled
510
00:44:09.555 --> 00:44:11.815
to to do that either. Right?
511
00:44:12.194 --> 00:44:21.120
That's where the the the trust and verify part comes in. Right? We're still humans and we still need some trust. We still need to, like, sort of find
512
00:44:21.660 --> 00:44:24.800
some cohesion and sort of work together towards things.
513
00:44:25.345 --> 00:44:28.085
So we have to trust each other to not be dicks.
514
00:44:28.785 --> 00:44:38.420
It's like, don't be a dick really is the best way of handling business. And when people are dicks, you need a solution. Try to a scaling solution. Exactly. The exact
515
00:44:38.720 --> 00:44:41.455
opposite of that. Right? Just assume everyone's a dick and still
516
00:44:42.095 --> 00:44:51.780
Exactly. Right? Because That's the beauty. But but also, Bitcoin is also in IT, and it can be embedded in any other thing. But then also, like, open source
517
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:59.665
software that you can verify is also operating on the same assumption. You don't have to trust that people aren't a dick because you can verify yourself.
518
00:44:59.965 --> 00:45:03.665
Well, that that's the challenge that was found. Right? Like, we cannot have trade secrets.
519
00:45:04.045 --> 00:45:06.545
Right. Right? Because then you're gonna be able to verify.
520
00:45:07.210 --> 00:45:11.470
So, like, it's it's a their culture gets to be Oh, yeah. I have another question.
521
00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:13.230
Sweet.
522
00:45:55.900 --> 00:45:58.160
Is licensed. Right? But then
523
00:45:59.660 --> 00:46:03.215
in all that may come dates if their code isn't open
524
00:46:43.165 --> 00:46:46.145
The like, from a, like, a libertarian or anarchist
525
00:46:46.445 --> 00:46:46.945
perspective,
526
00:46:47.325 --> 00:46:48.625
you can't steal information.
527
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:52.020
So in a sense, nobody's being harmed
528
00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:53.220
in that
529
00:46:53.680 --> 00:46:58.340
act. That's not how I do it. So, yeah, they went and copied a bunch of code.
530
00:46:59.725 --> 00:47:05.345
And as far as the it was illegal. I mean, that's just a whole whole mess.
531
00:47:05.725 --> 00:47:07.185
Yeah. So when someone,
532
00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:12.400
like, hit at 4 of them, they start building it out. Right? It's still not
533
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:22.465
forking the reputation of the company. They're not forking their customer base. There's a whole other social component to it that, you know, just can't be recreated
534
00:47:22.765 --> 00:47:23.985
at the click of a button.
535
00:47:25.165 --> 00:47:25.665
Yeah.
536
00:47:27.350 --> 00:47:34.170
Again, it's one of those things that it depends on what the scale and and what parts of the system it touches to.
537
00:47:35.195 --> 00:47:35.855
You know,
538
00:47:36.315 --> 00:47:37.135
we assume
539
00:47:37.435 --> 00:47:39.135
that all our new text,
540
00:47:40.395 --> 00:47:44.310
suite is being used by, say, Cloner. Right? But we can't prove it. Right? And,
541
00:47:44.610 --> 00:47:47.910
you know, they'll probably delete it from their computers if there was ever a concern.
542
00:47:49.970 --> 00:47:50.470
And
543
00:47:51.395 --> 00:47:51.895
it's,
544
00:47:53.715 --> 00:47:55.735
I I think I'm a capitalist first
545
00:47:56.195 --> 00:47:57.015
in a sense.
546
00:47:59.049 --> 00:47:59.789
I want
547
00:48:00.089 --> 00:48:02.430
people who create value to society
548
00:48:02.730 --> 00:48:03.390
to be
549
00:48:03.849 --> 00:48:04.349
remunerated
550
00:48:04.650 --> 00:48:06.109
for the value that's created.
551
00:48:08.345 --> 00:48:09.165
I see
552
00:48:09.545 --> 00:48:12.765
I don't like to see brilliant people having to beg for money,
553
00:48:14.025 --> 00:48:14.525
and
554
00:48:15.065 --> 00:48:17.645
we do live in a 5th world still. So
555
00:48:18.490 --> 00:48:20.109
I'd rather they be pragmatic,
556
00:48:20.730 --> 00:48:22.430
figure out a way of monetizing
557
00:48:22.730 --> 00:48:23.630
their brilliantness
558
00:48:23.930 --> 00:48:26.910
so they keep on doing that and adding value to society.
559
00:48:27.474 --> 00:48:27.974
Right?
560
00:48:29.795 --> 00:48:31.415
And, you know, maybe
561
00:48:32.275 --> 00:48:39.090
maybe they release they change the license as the last version went or something. You know, there's no clear answers.
562
00:48:40.270 --> 00:48:44.609
But, you know, for as long as we have the money printer, the incentives are malaligned.
563
00:48:45.055 --> 00:48:45.555
Right?
564
00:48:45.935 --> 00:48:49.555
And and then malalignment is what causes people to be dicks.
565
00:48:50.095 --> 00:48:55.650
And so how does it change post Bitcoin then? Keep saying, like, we live in Fiat work. We have Fiat problems.
566
00:48:56.030 --> 00:49:05.285
What is Well, I mean, for for 1, I mean, you can't just go and build, you know, hardware and then under a petro competitor because you're not gonna have access to free capital.
567
00:49:05.905 --> 00:49:11.200
Okay. Right? Who's gonna give you free capital in a world where the liquidity cost is high?
568
00:49:42.434 --> 00:49:42.934
Subscribers.
569
00:49:50.425 --> 00:49:55.565
And it actually they, you know, and so you make some chips when I'm you gotta remember. Chase.
570
00:49:56.585 --> 00:49:58.525
They have, like, some kind of, like,
571
00:50:48.530 --> 00:50:49.990
you know, that's why specifically
572
00:50:50.290 --> 00:50:51.590
with marble slices.
573
00:50:52.370 --> 00:50:54.470
You as a plumber cannot
574
00:50:55.545 --> 00:50:57.645
attain that piece of hardware because
575
00:50:58.425 --> 00:51:02.425
they're gonna excel because you violated that final license. So
576
00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:05.460
I mean, if you just start from reality,
577
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.020
like, a little bit, it's like all wires close.
578
00:51:08.640 --> 00:51:15.275
Okay? Everything. All your Raspberry Pis are closed source. Everything that you have It's found. It's found.
579
00:51:15.975 --> 00:51:16.875
Every single
580
00:51:17.175 --> 00:51:21.595
chip that you have on something, even if the source of it is viewable, it's closed.
581
00:51:22.040 --> 00:51:25.580
Okay, boom. All every single block that goes in the die.
582
00:51:27.240 --> 00:51:28.859
Say sound, please. Say cone.
583
00:51:29.395 --> 00:51:30.615
Pound. Pone.
584
00:51:31.155 --> 00:51:32.455
I can't do this.
585
00:51:33.715 --> 00:51:34.215
So,
586
00:51:36.329 --> 00:51:43.309
you know, it becomes a sort of like LARPing exercise of, like, which part of the stack is closed, which part of the stack is open.
587
00:51:44.035 --> 00:51:44.535
It,
588
00:51:44.915 --> 00:51:45.895
you know, like, I
589
00:51:46.595 --> 00:51:48.775
choose not to live in a LARPing world.
590
00:51:49.315 --> 00:51:53.990
Like, I I just find it very counter sort of productive in that sense.
591
00:51:54.290 --> 00:52:00.070
I I rather sort of, like, try to just, like, move forward a little bit with the stuff where possible
592
00:52:00.674 --> 00:52:01.974
and commercially viable?
593
00:52:02.355 --> 00:52:02.855
Because,
594
00:52:03.315 --> 00:52:04.375
you know, DIY
595
00:52:05.154 --> 00:52:11.510
doesn't scale, and it's not really as good as most commercial stuff, Right? Realistically speaking. So
596
00:52:12.050 --> 00:52:20.155
how can we make sure that we have high quality commercial stuff that has some decent values in it, right, and move society forward.
597
00:52:20.934 --> 00:52:25.035
So that's sort of like the space I'd rather be in. And then, like,
598
00:52:25.895 --> 00:52:26.555
you know,
599
00:52:27.100 --> 00:52:29.040
I love the in cap stuff.
600
00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:42.025
I still don't have a lot of answers, and I don't think anybody ever did. And if you read even miss this, like, there is no full answer there to to handle especially modern complex societies. Well, if we did, then it'd be an argument for sex plan.
601
00:52:42.485 --> 00:52:51.190
Exactly. Right? We like, it's messy. Right? And you you just progressively become even more messy as we have less government.
602
00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:54.790
You know, governance without central planning,
603
00:52:55.105 --> 00:52:59.045
by definition, is decentralized. Right? And rough consensus
604
00:52:59.345 --> 00:53:01.285
is gonna be true on all this stuff.
605
00:53:01.825 --> 00:53:09.030
Well, we argue that the complexity that gets added without the central planning is worth it, and it outweighs the negatives of the central platform.
606
00:53:09.490 --> 00:53:13.510
It it depends on what we consider central planning and, like, you know, sure.
607
00:53:13.915 --> 00:53:18.735
Stupid, like, modern government democracy stuff is all, like, done in bed. But, like,
608
00:53:19.595 --> 00:53:23.210
you know, you can still have, like, say we run a Citadel. Right?
609
00:53:23.530 --> 00:53:25.869
We we still gonna have some centralized
610
00:53:26.490 --> 00:53:26.990
committees,
611
00:53:27.290 --> 00:53:30.430
like, sort of sorting out stuff because we don't wanna make duplication.
612
00:53:31.255 --> 00:53:31.755
Right?
613
00:53:32.295 --> 00:53:33.915
We don't need more than 1 podcast.
614
00:53:36.455 --> 00:53:36.955
Bumps?
615
00:53:38.375 --> 00:53:39.115
No. See,
616
00:53:39.540 --> 00:53:51.315
there is no answer to any of this stuff except from like, you know, like, you put your ass on the line, you build something, you try to sell it, and then you just handle the market as it comes. Twitter fact checkers have determined that statement is misleading.
617
00:53:55.135 --> 00:53:58.500
Awesome. It does have to be related to Yes. By the way. Yep.
618
00:54:49.550 --> 00:54:53.570
Yeah. That's fair. Source. That's I just think like That that's totally fair.
619
00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:56.450
You know, I can see how from a user perspective,
620
00:54:57.075 --> 00:55:03.095
like, you know, the the QR thing is like it looks like this big thing. Right? But that's, like,
621
00:55:03.555 --> 00:55:04.055
0.3%
622
00:55:04.755 --> 00:55:05.815
of the bulk base.
623
00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:14.300
Right? The true value of the fame is that we don't lose your money. Right? So no. That's totally fine. Right? But now
624
00:55:15.775 --> 00:55:28.430
if first of all, there is what Peter wants. Right? Like, Peter says he wants some QR or something like that. Like, that is not true for the market. Like, so much so that, you know, Tresno is still selling a design from
625
00:55:28.810 --> 00:55:31.070
2013 that is gonna secure. Ledger
626
00:55:31.370 --> 00:55:32.990
sells Jesus Christ.
627
00:55:33.375 --> 00:55:33.875
Concealed
628
00:55:34.175 --> 00:55:34.675
devices
629
00:55:34.975 --> 00:55:41.880
and the device, like, you could barely read the screen. Right? So there is sort of like a a fake demand for it.
630
00:55:42.279 --> 00:55:46.380
It's cool and all people wanna do it. I don't think you'll know the demand to product yourself.
631
00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:47.740
Sure.
632
00:55:48.440 --> 00:55:49.579
She's a fake Or you just use it, you know, never shared with people that know about it.
633
00:55:52.145 --> 00:55:52.645
Clearly
634
00:55:54.145 --> 00:55:54.645
ways
635
00:55:55.424 --> 00:55:57.845
you're having through SD cards and just
636
00:55:58.300 --> 00:56:02.060
Wait. Because you haven't lost money on a bed of QR yet. Right? Or
637
00:56:02.700 --> 00:56:07.210
I mean, like, Spectrum is designed to use a particular wireless camera system and
638
00:56:08.425 --> 00:56:14.045
But we don't know when it's from the other device. No. But it gets complicated. Right? So a stack of complexity there.
639
00:56:15.010 --> 00:56:17.430
I can appreciate that some people may want that,
640
00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:24.630
but, you know, it the demand is so low that the phone didn't sell even, I think, about half of the devices they had.
641
00:56:25.135 --> 00:56:29.234
Right? They just gave it away to try to sort of build some some, like,
642
00:56:29.775 --> 00:56:32.755
you know, like, influential demand or whatever. Right?
643
00:56:57.980 --> 00:56:58.960
Yeah. I
644
00:56:59.315 --> 00:57:00.855
I I totally feel that,
645
00:57:01.235 --> 00:57:04.615
but, you know, first, we cannot appease everyone.
646
00:57:04.915 --> 00:57:07.015
Right? Everyone wants something different.
647
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:14.980
You know, we can't make more business decisions based solely on these things because, you know, the world is not fair,
648
00:57:15.405 --> 00:57:22.145
and people don't act morally and and, like, you know, they're gonna do stupid stuff. So, you know, we may lose a few customers.
649
00:57:22.610 --> 00:57:23.990
That was a known
650
00:57:24.370 --> 00:57:25.190
sort of, like,
651
00:57:25.730 --> 00:57:30.470
problem with changing dial license, and I appreciate that. But you know what actually happened?
652
00:57:31.125 --> 00:57:36.984
We actually innovated more. Right? We we've been continuously adding more features, and we actually grew
653
00:57:37.285 --> 00:57:37.785
by,
654
00:57:38.085 --> 00:57:39.865
like, almost, like, 10 x.
655
00:57:41.390 --> 00:57:49.650
So so, like, the market is is rewarding. That no no more. So what? Make other products as well though. So, like, you grew,
656
00:57:52.285 --> 00:57:55.825
Well, it it did. Like, we're gonna learn about art to this tomorrow.
657
00:58:06.655 --> 00:58:10.195
Do you build stuff? Do you build stuff?
658
00:58:11.775 --> 00:58:12.755
Not too much.
659
00:58:13.530 --> 00:58:16.350
No. But, like, see, this is the fact. It's very
660
00:58:17.370 --> 00:58:19.150
if you're not shipping a product,
661
00:58:20.010 --> 00:58:20.750
right, yourself,
662
00:58:21.484 --> 00:58:25.425
it's a lot easier to have opinions like that because
663
00:58:26.204 --> 00:58:29.505
you are not the one who actually pays the bills
664
00:58:29.980 --> 00:58:35.279
to get a factory to build inventory or to source parts or to develop the stuff. Right?
665
00:58:35.740 --> 00:58:39.200
I forego opportunity cost to make that happen.
666
00:58:39.735 --> 00:58:40.235
Right?
667
00:58:41.735 --> 00:58:49.020
While you're not shipping it. Right? So you're not feeling that pain. And and, you know, to you, it may seem like a simple
668
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:50.300
sort of, like,
669
00:58:51.240 --> 00:58:51.740
moral
670
00:58:52.200 --> 00:58:56.855
understanding of, like, you know, like, respect versus not whatever. Right? And it's
671
00:58:57.235 --> 00:59:01.175
fair. Right? But it it's a very unwise view because,
672
00:59:01.555 --> 00:59:04.775
again, it's no skin in the game. Right? And
673
00:59:05.490 --> 00:59:09.510
again, it sucks that we may lose people like you I'd love to have as a customer.
674
00:59:09.810 --> 00:59:11.590
Right? Because mark 4 is awesome.
675
00:59:11.970 --> 00:59:12.470
But,
676
00:59:13.474 --> 00:59:21.974
you know, I I really I can't appease everybody. And and I'm following the market here, and we're trying to make the thing that we actually like. The thing that we wanna make.
677
00:59:22.990 --> 00:59:29.410
I just wanna say I really appreciate your questions and comments. Yeah. We have one more question and then we gotta wrap this video.
678
00:59:57.849 --> 00:59:59.630
I I I think, like, what happened,
679
00:59:59.930 --> 01:00:03.230
like, just from our perspective is just a lot of noise
680
01:00:03.930 --> 01:00:05.390
and sucking of oxygen
681
01:00:06.135 --> 01:00:07.355
based on our
682
01:00:07.895 --> 01:00:08.875
sort of work.
683
01:00:09.815 --> 01:00:10.315
And,
684
01:00:10.935 --> 01:00:21.130
you know, just fuck it. Like, you know what? I'm gonna cut you off. If you're gonna be a dick in my stuff, I'm gonna cut you off. I have no issues with that. I don't see that as a bad thing.
685
01:00:23.085 --> 01:00:23.805
Just that.
686
01:00:24.285 --> 01:00:27.745
This has been a great conversation. I'd like to end in the final thoughts.
687
01:00:28.125 --> 01:00:35.970
We are closing up on time. Tony, final thoughts. So we did that man to Mike as it's still been a while. I'm just, your good, good face.
688
01:00:36.670 --> 01:00:37.890
No. I can Accomplished.
689
01:00:38.190 --> 01:00:40.059
Yeah. What did you do with it?
690
01:01:12.755 --> 01:01:16.375
That's fucking good. We appreciate your help with that. It's been a long time for me.
691
01:01:16.995 --> 01:01:18.295
Final thoughts, Evan.
692
01:01:18.675 --> 01:01:20.195
Looking very much for,
693
01:01:20.820 --> 01:01:25.480
Goldkart or reverting their license at some point. In the meantime, I still need for.
694
01:01:26.100 --> 01:01:26.920
Maybe begrudgingly.
695
01:01:28.555 --> 01:01:29.694
Run your end mode
696
01:01:30.075 --> 01:01:31.615
and, download, please.
697
01:01:32.234 --> 01:01:34.575
Thanks, Evan. I mean, David, what books?
698
01:01:35.010 --> 01:01:35.510
Mark
699
01:01:36.530 --> 01:01:36.850
Forrest,
700
01:01:38.450 --> 01:01:40.470
we have, like, really oversubscribed
701
01:01:41.250 --> 01:01:41.910
the reservations.
702
01:01:42.675 --> 01:01:44.775
I hope to start shipping it next week.
703
01:01:45.795 --> 01:01:46.855
Nobody heard that.
704
01:01:47.955 --> 01:01:48.355
And,
705
01:01:49.075 --> 01:01:52.400
the cards are coming out. And, anyways, just check our stuff.
706
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:54.099
We keep on innovating
707
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:55.200
even though,
708
01:01:55.839 --> 01:01:57.539
it is a complicated license.
709
01:01:58.160 --> 01:02:04.705
Thank you, MJ. And I wanna thank everyone for joining us. I wanna thank Ross for us, the team, and help put this together.
710
01:02:05.245 --> 01:02:07.185
I'm really looking forward to mid depths.
711
01:02:07.565 --> 01:02:13.490
We have food and drinks in the back. I'm helping yourself before mid death starts. It should starting about 25 minutes.
712
01:02:13.950 --> 01:02:19.810
I hope to see most of you in the open source stage over the next 3 days. It's absolutely massive at the conference.
713
01:02:20.195 --> 01:02:22.215
It was way bigger than I expected,
714
01:02:23.315 --> 01:02:23.815
and,
715
01:02:24.595 --> 01:02:26.455
cheers. I love you all, Sam. Success.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:27:54 PM
Duration: 3753.900
Channels: 1
1
00:00:04.880 --> 00:00:06.259
2
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To everyone listening,
3
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from afar through the broadcast, we apologize ahead of time for this audio quality is horrible.
4
00:00:32.190 --> 00:00:42.925
Having a great time to get back to some peers in the anniversary of executive order 6102 when MTR trying to steal all our grandparents gold and Satoshi used to invalid her birthday.
5
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So they're our priority, and if this broadcast doesn't come out with quality, I will try and upload a better quality one afterwards.
6
00:00:51.670 --> 00:00:55.530
So with all that said, I think this is our first ever it is our first ever
7
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really in person dispatch. Last year in Miami, we did 1 in our penthouse Airbnb
8
00:01:01.805 --> 00:01:04.545
because we thought it was gonna be 200 k by conference day.
9
00:01:07.250 --> 00:01:12.710
But this one, we actually may have been trying to make it as soon as possible. I wanna I wanna thank,
10
00:01:13.735 --> 00:01:24.060
Ross for for putting this all together. He he was really fucking awesome when he came to me. He was like, we're doing good jobs in Miami. We got Jay coming to town. We would love to see this batch opened up.
11
00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:27.659
It really could not have happened without him since you're sitting in.
12
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With all that said, I think we have our great guests here. All of them are return guests on. So the dispatch, we got MBK. How's it going MBK?
13
00:01:41.865 --> 00:01:43.050
14
00:01:43.510 --> 00:01:52.335
Hi. Can you oh, it's it's Is it working? Yeah. Just speak loudly. Yeah. So yeah. Hey. Nice to be here. It's like Bitcoin Twitter.
15
00:01:54.715 --> 00:02:00.335
16
00:02:03.190 --> 00:02:05.850
Thanks, Evan. Do you wanna go? What are you saying?
17
00:02:06.470 --> 00:02:15.545
18
00:02:16.165 --> 00:02:16.665
Just
19
00:02:17.205 --> 00:02:19.240
humbled and honored to be a little part of it.
20
00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:22.220
21
00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:32.394
And thanks to all the priests that made this possible, especially our not super turn guests. Paul, how's it going? Hello. Thank you for having me. We got Paul Miller here. What's up, Paul?
22
00:02:33.415 --> 00:02:36.314
And now we have Tony. How's it going, Tony? Good with you.
23
00:02:44.955 --> 00:02:57.670
24
00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:02.470
25
00:03:06.675 --> 00:03:11.155
So where do we wanna start? What are we what do you guys wanna talk about? I have a pretty open ended
26
00:03:13.510 --> 00:03:14.409
I was thinking
27
00:03:15.830 --> 00:03:22.329
we only have an hour. I was like, I don't want to make it a little bit juicy, and we have MBK here, and we have Paula here.
28
00:03:23.565 --> 00:03:26.145
So we have a little conversation about open source licenses?
29
00:03:28.045 --> 00:03:28.545
30
00:03:30.650 --> 00:03:36.510
31
00:03:36.810 --> 00:03:42.645
Your your thoughts for the change in cold cards open source license, and then we'll have
32
00:03:43.585 --> 00:03:46.085
one of these guys jump in. Yeah. So
33
00:03:46.950 --> 00:03:47.770
34
00:03:48.150 --> 00:03:48.810
I think
35
00:03:49.190 --> 00:03:52.410
what happened with us is that we are realized that
36
00:03:54.525 --> 00:03:55.265
the business
37
00:03:55.965 --> 00:03:59.425
is as important to the security of the device
38
00:04:00.045 --> 00:04:02.145
as the software and the device itself.
39
00:04:03.790 --> 00:04:06.050
So you cannot make,
40
00:04:07.390 --> 00:04:11.410
like, really secure hardware without having a profitable business.
41
00:04:11.865 --> 00:04:12.365
Right?
42
00:04:13.305 --> 00:04:18.845
And Coinstrike has always been sort of like it's a lifestyle business for us. We do it because we want to.
43
00:04:20.569 --> 00:04:21.069
And
44
00:04:22.250 --> 00:04:27.789
we figured out that unless you have the the rotating revenue and capital
45
00:04:28.635 --> 00:04:30.175
to invest in, you
46
00:04:30.475 --> 00:04:33.855
know, security research and you have, like, real equipment
47
00:04:34.235 --> 00:04:34.735
and
48
00:04:35.115 --> 00:04:40.930
you have, like, you have to have, like, very large orders of manufacturers so you get the the good
49
00:04:41.390 --> 00:04:46.610
stuff that's under NDA from the manufacturers of the chips. Because you wanna know all those little flaws.
50
00:04:48.865 --> 00:04:52.725
And to do that is very hard when you have
51
00:04:53.665 --> 00:04:55.285
very turnkey cloners.
52
00:04:55.960 --> 00:04:56.460
Right?
53
00:04:58.040 --> 00:04:59.420
You can have somebody,
54
00:04:59.960 --> 00:05:01.420
you know, sort of
55
00:05:03.905 --> 00:05:05.604
contribute to your cold base,
56
00:05:06.065 --> 00:05:10.485
that'll be great. But when people just take and don't give,
57
00:05:11.020 --> 00:05:15.919
it makes it so that it's very hard to have a business around it. And,
58
00:05:17.500 --> 00:05:18.240
you know,
59
00:05:18.699 --> 00:05:18.939
we
60
00:05:19.975 --> 00:05:23.355
for us, it's more important to have a a secure device
61
00:05:24.295 --> 00:05:26.475
that that it is for us to
62
00:05:26.855 --> 00:05:36.315
63
00:05:37.275 --> 00:05:38.655
Cold Guard was historically
64
00:05:39.275 --> 00:05:42.335
a free open source license that was non restricted.
65
00:05:42.795 --> 00:05:51.199
Anyone can modify it. Anyone can change the code so they could they could add to it. They could distribute it. They could sell it. They could do whatever the hell they want to do with it.
66
00:05:51.659 --> 00:05:54.479
And then this company Foundation Devices came out.
67
00:05:55.175 --> 00:06:02.075
And we didn't wanna mention it by name, but I just did. And they took that code base, and they raised a bunch of VC money off of it,
68
00:06:02.700 --> 00:06:04.240
before they even shipped anything.
69
00:06:04.780 --> 00:06:05.520
And then
70
00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:08.400
and then MBK
71
00:06:09.555 --> 00:06:10.694
changed his license
72
00:06:11.474 --> 00:06:16.055
to a more restricted license that was not free and open source, that was source vehicle
73
00:06:16.659 --> 00:06:24.360
that basically allows people to modify it, but they can't distribute and sell it. Yeah. So it's it's even more permissive than that.
74
00:06:25.155 --> 00:06:28.775
75
00:06:29.235 --> 00:06:31.735
copy left. Right? You're restricted
76
00:06:32.115 --> 00:06:32.775
to have
77
00:06:33.075 --> 00:06:33.635
the left
78
00:06:34.349 --> 00:06:36.930
like, that that license has to survive.
79
00:06:37.470 --> 00:06:46.805
Right? So that means that anybody who copied the source code needs to make it public again. It was specifically GPM. Right? It's it's specifically GPM. And
80
00:06:47.665 --> 00:06:52.020
and and funny enough, you actually required the state to enforce that license.
81
00:06:52.740 --> 00:06:54.280
So it's very non libertarian.
82
00:06:56.099 --> 00:07:08.354
And funny enough, Satoshi chose, in my opinion, MIT because you can build a business on top of MIT, and you can have the whole base inside your whole base and do whatever you want. So, you know, in my opinion, truly
83
00:07:08.655 --> 00:07:09.155
false
84
00:07:09.580 --> 00:07:15.680
is MIT. Right? GPL is a complicated license that is a product that's of its size.
85
00:07:17.315 --> 00:07:17.634
And,
86
00:07:18.675 --> 00:07:21.495
I think it's about the same. Anyways, so
87
00:07:23.074 --> 00:07:23.895
it's it's
88
00:07:24.380 --> 00:07:25.280
it's important
89
00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:26.720
that,
90
00:07:27.820 --> 00:07:32.480
you know, you have to essentially, like, be honest about the fact that, like, if there is people contributing,
91
00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:33.920
it's great.
92
00:07:34.525 --> 00:07:37.264
But we were essentially a single source
93
00:07:37.884 --> 00:07:41.185
source code. Right? Meaning, we pay people ourselves
94
00:07:41.564 --> 00:07:43.025
to write that source code.
95
00:07:43.370 --> 00:07:50.830
You know, we have, like, the contributor here and there, but, you know, 90 and a half percent of the source code is ours. So it's not like a community project.
96
00:07:51.210 --> 00:07:52.110
It's not like
97
00:07:52.505 --> 00:07:53.405
you're just converting
98
00:07:53.785 --> 00:08:01.645
the work of a lot of people into a new license and sort of screwing out. There's no rug pull. It's just ours. So much so that we were allowed to do that change.
99
00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:02.699
Anyways
100
00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:11.854
so so that's where it stands. We we just we just don't wanna be in the same position that a lot of open source projects are, where the only people who reap the benefit
101
00:08:12.235 --> 00:08:13.534
are, say, Amazon,
102
00:08:13.914 --> 00:08:14.414
Google,
103
00:08:14.715 --> 00:08:18.335
and the developers are then laughed sort of like begging for money.
104
00:08:19.330 --> 00:08:25.430
105
00:08:25.895 --> 00:08:29.514
if you were using the same open source code? If you're saying
106
00:08:29.895 --> 00:08:34.635
that that your business model doesn't work if anybody can easily clone you,
107
00:08:35.019 --> 00:08:40.800
how does their business model work? How does any is nobody making any money? So, you know,
108
00:08:41.899 --> 00:08:48.835
109
00:08:49.615 --> 00:08:50.115
it's
110
00:08:52.510 --> 00:08:59.730
it's a it's a a much larger upfront investment in codes that you'd normally find in standard software projects. Right?
111
00:09:00.350 --> 00:09:00.850
And,
112
00:09:02.165 --> 00:09:05.865
we lose in different ways. For example, there is the affinity scamming,
113
00:09:06.245 --> 00:09:07.145
right, where,
114
00:09:07.765 --> 00:09:12.530
said cloner will go in podcast and say, hey. This is as secure as this other device.
115
00:09:12.910 --> 00:09:15.890
Right? This is as good. And then they fuck up,
116
00:09:16.830 --> 00:09:17.330
and
117
00:09:17.815 --> 00:09:21.035
then people think that because they have the same code as we do
118
00:09:21.815 --> 00:09:28.699
you know what I mean? Now we have a problem too. So for example, this device that's a corner is using a pound secure element.
119
00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:33.019
Right? There's not a lot of information out yet because everybody's on their NDA, but,
120
00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:48.949
everybody has moved on, for example, from the the secure element version. They haven't because they don't have inventory of the new secured chip. Right? But now, again, it's just saying, hey. But we are the same security architecture. Right? So so there is the issue with that.
121
00:09:49.810 --> 00:09:58.375
And then there's the issue of, like, chipping away from our market, Right? From the product that we built, the brand that we built, and and all the effort that we put into this.
122
00:09:59.635 --> 00:10:19.680
123
00:10:20.140 --> 00:10:23.040
But then the other side would be from a security standpoint.
124
00:10:23.900 --> 00:10:26.000
I feel like I would be reticent
125
00:10:26.300 --> 00:10:27.680
to look at your code
126
00:10:28.524 --> 00:10:30.464
based on how you have,
127
00:10:31.644 --> 00:10:35.345
talked about people who have copy pasted your code.
128
00:10:35.650 --> 00:10:41.990
Yeah. And I was like, oops. Am I I was I was I was browsing through here to check your Yes. Security.
129
00:10:42.370 --> 00:10:50.305
I'm my finger slipped. I hit command c, and now I have one of your functions in my code base, and you're gonna, like, drag me. We don't care.
130
00:10:50.764 --> 00:11:08.195
131
00:11:08.575 --> 00:11:09.715
the point is this,
132
00:11:10.095 --> 00:11:10.595
first,
133
00:11:11.820 --> 00:11:21.185
you know, most people are not like, it kinda sucks, but they're not qualified to review this kind of security level. There's, like, very few people that can.
134
00:11:22.045 --> 00:11:30.850
What we need is people to review that is is building. Right? What you need is to write them, Russ. The what? You need to rewrite it or not. Right. Exactly.
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Rest is a shit break.
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So
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so, anyway, so
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all licenses are state based, of course. Right? Otherwise,
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like, you know, if you go back to, if you're gonna go back to proper libertarian principles, you'd say the way to resolve that is by having trade secrets. You cannot have trade secrets in open source
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by definition. Right? So those two things are kinda still incompatible. We don't have a good answer for that.
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The other thing is, you know,
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raising VC on top of somebody else's code is also fiat. Right? It's also based on the same system that licenses are based on violence, whatever you wanna call it. So,
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you know, in a world in which
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I can build my thing and there isn't VCs available for a cloner to go shop around my stuff, it's cool. We're we're listen. We tried.
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That was the goal. We're gonna try to make this that way. It didn't work, so we switched it. Right? We're a defensive company.
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We will behave defensively.
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Right?
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And I guess, like, another
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yeah. So so there really is is is the issue with the VCs that they will just willy nilly sort of, you know, invest in a company like that, probably because they didn't even know that that it was essentially on source code.
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And we actually put out an extremely permissive license.
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It's extremely permissive. You can do whatever you want to the call. You can copy. You can sell it. You can do whatever you want. You just cannot build a cloning company.
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That's the only restriction.
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Yeah. What is it simply? You can't make a commercial product out of it? Exact that's it. So you can't just you can sell it. No. You can sell yours.
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So you as the user is protected.
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Oh, and you can sell your individual company. You you yeah. Exactly.
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You just can't start a competing. Hey.
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You only bought 1.
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So, I mean, you guys are all major proponents
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that free up to our software.
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Do you not have any
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comments for MBK? Is he in the right year? Is he
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Yeah. I mean, I like, at the end of the day, like, we're
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no permission. Like, we don't need the same permission. Right? But the real kinda turnaround, we, like, all have permission, like,
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you know, government,
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permission based combos.
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So, like, at the end of the day, like, you know, like, what Paul said, you know, we are asking the states for divorce licenses, basically. Yep.
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That's just kind of the reality of the situation right now. Like, you know, if you wanna like, honestly, I would be all for, like,
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and on out there just, like, take just, like, ripping off, like, you know, just licenses left and right or, like, code that's licensed left and right and not give it a fuck because it's like, well, if they created this anonymous, like, quote, unquote business and anonymous, you know, like, you know, they're not gonna solve they're not gonna go to the state to solve the problems. You know? I would be all for,
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you know, quote, unquote rip offs, you know, some of the stuff. I would love to get into a situation where we aren't going to the state to, like, have businesses we operate, and then and then we can actually kind of solve all that. I guess, like, the reality of the situation is, like, you know, that's kind of the environment we're all in right now. We have to sort of be offensive.
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Yeah. So I don't know. My thoughts have sort of, like, changed over over the last couple of years. Just just to add to that,
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sort
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of camaraderie
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and sort of, like, morality that comes with all this.
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You know, there is a difference between you contributing to a cold base and then forking off because you don't like it or because you wanna try something different
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as opposed to just taking the whole code base, removing the comments,
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and starting a company.
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Right? That's what I call a dick move.
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So yeah.
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It's but how do you want? So, like, you know, if they if they get hacked, it because they were actually bad at what they're doing. You know? Well, it's like, well, it says I'm a dick. I don't know. That's right. I don't know. Like You know, funny enough, we actually thought about making a joke license where but for real on the product, it's like everyone can use this for commercial purposes but
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Like, I just thought the other like, a little shower thought of of,
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we have sales tax. Right? So every time you wanna sell something so every time you transfer ownership with, you know, paid for by money,
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there's a tax.
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That
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limits all activity where we might wanna have a high frequency exchange of goods. Like, I don't I couldn't even imagine, like, why
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someone is, like, selling a toaster back and forth, you know, like, a 1000 times a second. Like, that's literally impossible. So I think
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every, regulation
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has a sort of hidden cost like that. And I think,
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information
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cannot be owned. That's a ridiculous concept.
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And so when we add some state based enforcement,
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and now, like, you know, Katy Perry's getting sued
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for her song because it sounds a little bit like other song. Well, it turns out most of the music I like sounds like other music. Yep. And so now you you know, so we're always when we're we're allowing the state to dictate our actions in this way, we're really limiting the what is possible
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and and hacking with,
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with code, we're we're limiting
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who can be involved, how fast we iterate, who can verify,
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you know, who can run by, who can who can sell it. And so I'm, you know, I'm just I'm just worried about it in in that sense. That that said, I haven't built a business
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based on,
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you know, like a hardware business based on open source code. That is,
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It's not like you can just, like,
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sit
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and apply your knowledge and boom, you have a product. Right? With hardware, like, you have to buy all this stuff. You have to either rage with all the stuff that has hard costs. Right? There's all this overhead that's completely upfront.
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That's your r and d, right, that you have to recuperate if you wanna still exist.
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Right? And if you have unfair competition,
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right, you're gonna it's possible that you simply won't exist, right, because they can undercut you because they haven't spent all the money doing their r and d. So they can technically
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take the margin out of their product, right, and just go compete with you unfairly.
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had an industrial revolution,
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and we made so many products cheaper, and we were kind of ramping up in the, our civilization level.
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And then I don't know what year it was, but so we kinda leveled up, and we never got to the point of industrializing
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industrial
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for for all the hate that Apple gets,
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it is absolutely
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remarkable what's inside here. Like, this is this is like
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a pinnacle of civilization what's what's literally done inside this thing. You have one of the most modern computers
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that exists. You have 17 radios.
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This thing can talk in any country.
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Okay?
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It's just
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most people just can't understand
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side. Right? What I'm saying is that we, like, democratize
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But we didn't democratize
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industrial production.
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Like, we don't make pull cards in my house.
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Right?
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We
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we have a factory that then makes cold cards. It happens that we now, like, have most of the production of the factory. But, like,
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it really is just us sort of inventing a thing, make it into a thing that can be actually produced
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in quantity, which is completely different. Right?
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It's not like a Raspberry Pi that, like, has some stuff on top that like, no. This is, like, a thing
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that has access to parts, has access to manufacturing methods,
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right, that then goes into production and can be sort of, like, made many times so people can sort of use it in an industrial capacity.
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And and I think, like, a huge part of the FOSS movement,
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especially because Stalin was a bit commie,
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is that that's why I'm more on the MIT side, right, on that sort of discussion, is that
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people don't understand business.
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So it pisses me off. I know so many people who are absolutely brilliant, not making money.
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I want them to make money to make even more brilliant things.
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But I but I also think of I think of open source as as as really as as charity.
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Like, it is a gift you're giving to the world. I And and you're trying to you you instead of
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instead of making a product that is a one to one exchange,
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they get something out of it, you get something out of it. You're you're giving something to basically everyone all at once. People are not equal.
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and charity is not
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a way of moving society forward. I I am a huge fan of charity.
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Love you. Yeah. So, like, I love charity on a personal level. Right? Like and helping people that may need.
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But charity
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is not how you invent everything.
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Like,
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again, I like to use that for example because they are as close as it gets. Right? Like, it's also adult days to have real units.
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But, like, you wouldn't be able to invent, like,
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folly, you know. Like, let's do all these ridiculous engineering things that we can do because we're stealing everybody's money. They can do those things because they have, you know, sort a sort of a monopoly position. Well, it's not really. I mean, like, you know, Android copied
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phone Nirvana in terms of design, which is
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flat screen with some 50 cameras on the other side. Right?
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Because this is this is what people need. Right now, all the advancements that they're doing, which are absolutely remarkable,
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Remember? Like, with all the poster,
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It's,
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trying to make a business out of open source. And listen, listen, we still have another 50 projects that are all open source, and we contribute to open source, and we found open source, and all we should. It's just this specific whole base has some restriction. Right?
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It's not simple. Like and there is very few companies that do it, like, especially on hardware. And, like, I'm trying stuff out.
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Some things work, some things won't, some things people love, some people who, like, hate us. You know? It's like
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since the cloner came out,
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her coin cut's business? No.
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you know, people people talk, but, like, it's it's not like no. It didn't. So
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all their users are asking for all the features that we added after the license change.
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So they haven't
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they haven't introduced any single feature
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or bug fix since they changed the code. You know, they changed some stuff based on their things. But,
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and their users are asking for the stuff that we added after, and they can't just pull and merge.
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It's fascinating, isn't it? That they were not capable of doing those things, but they would get those things for free
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if we change the license. So who knows? Maybe they go out of business, we change the license back.
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you know, passionate consumer base, but you have a great product. And I think, ultimately, even if you did have that false license, I think you guys would continue to strive and prosper. Probably. That that's that's all I really say on, on this run. Well, thanks for liking the product.
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But yeah. I mean,
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I really don't have a problem
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really with these restrictive licenses
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in commercial sense as long as the users really,
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you know, have the liberty to do with it what they want.
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More so, I I have more problems with people, like, you know, falsely
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advertising their licenses fast when they're not. I think you guys did a good job switching in on the website to a big source viewable. That's that's a good step. You know, I did that just because sort of tired of drama. I still disagree with OSI. I I there's some nuance to the debate. OSS
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versus FOS.
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So I think there is a I think we'd lose a lot in this space because it turns off a ton of extremely talented people that are not into
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the true,
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like,
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fully
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open source thing, the free is free as in freedom,
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right,
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of that license,
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they they would gladly contribute,
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and their contribution would be massive. There's a lot of people, like, that are incredibly talented working in a basement somewhere getting paid that would totally contribute to this if they could have some restrictions.
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And and I think there's a massive difference. Right? Because
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people try to use the FOSS, meaning free open source versus open source, just open
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source, as a way to send back projects that are not free open source. So they say, you know, oh, if you if you if you're just source viewable, you're closed source.
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Right? Because they're trying to
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to, like, guess, like,
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the fact that it is viewable
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and it is verifiable
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and it is maybe editable and poppable.
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Because they may have a competing product. So they they want to sort of, like, create this this flame wars around us, and it's such a shame
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because the only people who who gain from that is, you know, is Amazon and Google. Like, I mean,
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the money that Amazon and Google make from open source software that devs are now making is monumental.
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I mean, AWS makes more money than Amazon
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products,
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because they don't want, like, a poison pill of needing to contribute back to open source in that situation.
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you know, pull in an open source project into maybe a more greater commercial thing, maybe they're getting out grants,
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you know, in a lot of cases, they might ask you to move your license from GPL to MIT or at least do, like, a dual licensing thing. That's, like, the big thing
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between
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and and it gets complicated very fast because people get lawyers involved very fast too,
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because it's copied left.
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Anyways
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pretty fair with it. I was hoping it was gonna be juicier.
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Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
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It's not me.
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with 8 big source licenses. I mean, number 1, misrepresenting
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what kind of license you really are. That's a really big one.
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But the other thing that really grinds my gear is, when you when you steal someone's source code.
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And,
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Rodolfo,
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this sort of goes to you. This is not about the treasure license,
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but rather an another project. I feel like, you personally took out from,
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and, it's it's called Bitcoin bounties.
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And and funny enough, the the funny thing about this is that we have the guy
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And We are listed there.
358
00:30:21.175 --> 00:30:24.875
359
00:30:34.184 --> 00:30:38.325
Yeah. Yeah. No. I was so I was so grateful because it
360
00:30:38.985 --> 00:30:40.044
here's my mindset.
361
00:30:40.825 --> 00:30:41.725
362
00:30:42.050 --> 00:30:46.550
363
00:30:47.170 --> 00:30:50.105
364
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:19.820
365
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:22.140
on a project that's out there,
366
00:31:22.555 --> 00:31:25.295
you essentially have to inform that it's closed source.
367
00:31:25.675 --> 00:31:27.695
But the source is open and it's beautiful.
368
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:34.419
It's a clusterfuck. So, like, what happens what happens, you know, post type of big organization,
369
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.860
370
00:31:38.735 --> 00:31:42.835
Do we just does everyone just use everyone's codes, copyright No.
371
00:31:43.455 --> 00:31:47.315
372
00:31:47.770 --> 00:31:51.550
I see, this is like a lot of open source people don't understand
373
00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:54.830
that, like, the default state
374
00:31:55.210 --> 00:31:56.910
of a of, like, a business,
375
00:31:57.305 --> 00:31:57.805
right,
376
00:31:59.145 --> 00:32:00.205
is to protect
377
00:32:00.825 --> 00:32:04.285
the value that it created so that it can generate a profit. Right?
378
00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:13.140
You know, we're all more permissive. We're all trying to build a better world, so we're trying to do this things in an open source way. Sometimes it fits, sometimes it succeeds.
379
00:32:13.520 --> 00:32:14.020
But,
380
00:32:15.935 --> 00:32:18.995
the default place before this licenses
381
00:32:19.455 --> 00:32:19.955
was
382
00:32:20.335 --> 00:32:21.715
what means this this practice
383
00:32:22.529 --> 00:32:24.390
himself as a secret.
384
00:32:24.770 --> 00:32:30.549
Right? So if people cannot find a way to protect all the effort they put in,
385
00:32:30.924 --> 00:32:37.905
me, if they are building stuff that can be easily sort of, like, wrapped up and clone, is they just close it.
386
00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:41.919
That that's kind of what happened to Ledger, by the way. Ledger,
387
00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:45.679
way, way back then was BTC chip. That was the name of the product.
388
00:32:46.059 --> 00:32:47.200
It was actually old,
389
00:32:47.785 --> 00:32:50.685
but but your phone is starting to show up. Transfer
390
00:32:51.145 --> 00:32:53.805
actually changed their license to Microsoft's
391
00:32:55.520 --> 00:32:59.620
viewable library only. And then they got so much flack from the community
392
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.945
that they they then rolled back that commit to GitHub and change the GPL
393
00:33:05.245 --> 00:33:06.065
from MIT.
394
00:33:06.445 --> 00:33:14.450
So they themselves are the same thing. It's just we don't give a fuck. So, like, we're like, okay. We're gonna move this to something that we think should be. I I just feel like it's
395
00:33:14.850 --> 00:33:16.950
396
00:33:18.289 --> 00:33:22.655
397
00:33:30.990 --> 00:33:43.395
398
00:33:43.775 --> 00:33:48.755
399
00:33:49.520 --> 00:33:56.580
You know, send it for me. No. Yeah. Yeah. I would abolish the TSA. I mean, literally, I I No. No. That's not the TSA, the FAA.
400
00:33:57.245 --> 00:33:58.945
401
00:34:00.845 --> 00:34:08.980
We have a low light frequency because of all this spacing. We don't have flying. We have all these regulations that make our our our business coming
402
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:13.140
a 100 times more expensive than that after the year. Preaching to the fire,
403
00:34:13.765 --> 00:34:20.745
404
00:34:21.045 --> 00:34:25.600
for somebody to just clone stuff. Okay? Because here's what could happen. Okay?
405
00:34:26.060 --> 00:34:28.160
So let's say it is still subpar.
406
00:34:28.460 --> 00:34:30.480
Right? The device that a clone has.
407
00:34:31.100 --> 00:34:31.600
But
408
00:34:32.565 --> 00:34:38.025
they find they're very good at sales to receive. They find, say, a 100 x capital.
409
00:34:38.645 --> 00:34:45.089
They could do exactly what Uber did to taxi drivers. They can go. They lower the price. They take everybody out of the What is?
410
00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:50.475
They lower yeah. And then, you know, they I'm not gonna be your They raise. Before people over
411
00:34:57.515 --> 00:34:58.015
they
412
00:34:58.549 --> 00:35:03.930
They they they they run the pool. They took half of the taxi drivers out of the out of business. Right?
413
00:35:04.309 --> 00:35:11.405
And then plain matured. Right? Because the the poor tax drivers in Florida don't have a choice. They have to buy that stupid fucking with that. Right?
414
00:35:12.025 --> 00:35:19.150
And so they have to charge them a lot more. And their price is actually gonna be there too. It's just like you can't escape the tentacles of the state
415
00:35:19.609 --> 00:35:20.829
leaving in a world
416
00:35:21.210 --> 00:35:26.265
417
00:35:26.805 --> 00:35:36.480
become friends with the state, and you have a state to, like, get to your position. And what we need is a lot more freedom especially when you business going down the business all the time, failing
418
00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:39.040
419
00:35:39.340 --> 00:35:41.920
serving people anymore. How they put in
420
00:35:42.265 --> 00:35:47.005
the VCs in that? Because see Screw the VCs. Yeah. But but see,
421
00:35:47.465 --> 00:35:55.210
you know, you Not awesome. Yeah. No. Listen. I know some good VCs. VCs, but, like, just in general, the the the dirty VC, not the gig VC. Right?
422
00:35:57.270 --> 00:35:59.290
So you you don't live in a vacuum.
423
00:35:59.735 --> 00:36:06.395
Right? You can still have somebody come and essentially undercut you by getting free product for a year.
424
00:36:06.695 --> 00:36:08.635
Right? And then you go out of business.
425
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:14.180
Right? And then they jack up the price again. Consumers are just too fucked, and the consumers not have a worse product.
426
00:36:19.155 --> 00:36:21.255
This happens in a lot of this is literally,
427
00:36:21.795 --> 00:36:25.575
Peter Teals, like, model. It's like you find an industry.
428
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:29.579
Right? You you break the legs of every competitor. You become a monopoly.
429
00:36:30.279 --> 00:36:31.019
And then
430
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.660
and then you go and you check up the price.
431
00:36:34.585 --> 00:36:35.405
So so
432
00:36:35.785 --> 00:36:41.885
I still don't have an answer on how to handle that model. Right? If I find that answer
433
00:36:42.185 --> 00:36:43.245
and that includes
434
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.700
having even more permissive licenses,
435
00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:46.740
I would.
436
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.380
I just don't have an answer.
437
00:36:52.555 --> 00:36:54.974
438
00:36:55.434 --> 00:36:56.974
439
00:36:57.355 --> 00:36:59.214
if you look at the accident rate
440
00:36:59.580 --> 00:37:02.400
on, private airplanes, which is 2 FAA certified,
441
00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:09.435
but now the pilots are not as much because it's the duty who flies on Sunday, they fall a lot more than flying for March. The FAA
442
00:37:09.815 --> 00:37:11.675
443
00:37:12.135 --> 00:37:16.635
444
00:37:18.040 --> 00:37:18.859
is a licensed,
445
00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:22.140
privilege in pretty much every country. Right? Because,
446
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.260
you know, with the right gear, you can literally stop all flights
447
00:37:26.035 --> 00:37:27.095
within, like,
448
00:37:27.395 --> 00:37:29.015
30 kilometers of your house.
449
00:37:30.035 --> 00:37:33.240
And and it's, like, talk about 2, $300 worth of gear. Right?
450
00:37:34.580 --> 00:37:48.805
So what they did is they licensed everybody because at least the people learn how to do it. Like, I hate licenses. I hate the barrier of entry for people to have this thing, but I also don't have a good answer to that because Yeah. Just round all the planes. They'll figure it out.
451
00:37:49.825 --> 00:38:06.785
452
00:38:07.120 --> 00:38:21.414
So nobody wanted it. And, and and so they like, what what if we tried, like, to solve all this interference and they made white line because it was it was unreserved. But, you know, 2.4 actually goes through walls, which is quite nice,
453
00:38:21.795 --> 00:38:29.809
454
00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:32.925
but and it shows the leaks. But,
455
00:38:33.365 --> 00:38:36.345
those didn't go through well as through walls as well.
456
00:38:37.205 --> 00:38:39.065
Yeah. No. Spectrum is complicated.
457
00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:46.200
But it it it gets tricky. Right? I mean, we do live in complex societies with very complex, like, infrastructure.
458
00:38:46.660 --> 00:38:50.040
Maybe that's a product of government getting their hands in everything.
459
00:38:51.205 --> 00:38:57.945
But, you know, I don't wanna also subscribe to the all or nothing either. Right? I mean, like, you know, no government, but governance.
460
00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:07.160
Right? Like, humans still need to organize themselves and and find, like, some way around that. And as we invent technologies that have, like, more outsized,
461
00:39:08.575 --> 00:39:10.595
secondary effects and more externalities,
462
00:39:11.055 --> 00:39:14.710
you do have to find ways of of, you know, dealing with that.
463
00:39:15.270 --> 00:39:20.650
It's like, you know, your neighbor not having, you know, fire alarms and you having addressable ones. Right?
464
00:39:21.510 --> 00:39:23.849
Do we want to manage for alarms? No.
465
00:39:25.015 --> 00:39:27.195
Heat's house could get my house on fire.
466
00:39:27.495 --> 00:39:28.555
467
00:39:32.535 --> 00:39:33.035
468
00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:40.670
469
00:39:41.765 --> 00:39:44.105
I mean, we have 20 minutes left. I
470
00:39:44.405 --> 00:39:47.865
you know, one of the close course of the dispatch needs audience participation.
471
00:39:48.700 --> 00:39:51.520
And, obviously, you guys are in the live chat right now.
472
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:55.840
I was kinda thinking about it. Like,
473
00:40:05.990 --> 00:40:09.930
I see a hand over there. There is a hand. Can someone pass
474
00:40:11.350 --> 00:40:13.770
pass him on mic? Hello, bud.
475
00:40:15.635 --> 00:40:16.135
Thanks,
476
00:40:19.352 --> 00:40:19.852
Bob.
477
00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:16.320
478
00:41:17.580 --> 00:41:19.920
And the idea is that they're trying to attract business
479
00:41:20.780 --> 00:41:21.280
by
480
00:41:21.625 --> 00:41:25.645
democratizing the knowledge, and they have a specialty to build them.
481
00:41:26.185 --> 00:41:32.720
So that's not obviously you know, and so, basically, you have the United States IP heavy, a lot of big innovators.
482
00:41:34.140 --> 00:41:37.279
But where you guys should make it, you you make it to China.
483
00:41:37.795 --> 00:41:42.375
So I I think there's something really interesting there, but I think what the the big principle is is, like,
484
00:41:42.835 --> 00:41:51.270
trade secrets and redeem and don't live with fear. Like, just stop me. I'm so afraid. So this is fascinating thing. Do you know why
485
00:41:51.570 --> 00:41:54.630
486
00:41:54.935 --> 00:41:56.235
It only builds the hardware.
487
00:41:56.535 --> 00:42:08.320
And the hardware can be reverse engineered. So you take the design they already know. Like, you know, my design goes to Chinese factory. They can just, like, you know, in in 10 minutes, remake my software. To be reversed.
488
00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:09.920
Well, yes.
489
00:42:10.220 --> 00:42:16.835
But the kind of talent and the kind of culture you need to have to make good software still doesn't exist in China.
490
00:42:17.215 --> 00:42:22.880
Right? So much so that most of Chinese projects are still still have either cracked software.
491
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:25.840
Right? I mean, if that anybody use DJI,
492
00:42:27.740 --> 00:42:29.040
drones. Right? I mean,
493
00:42:29.885 --> 00:42:30.545
it's something,
494
00:42:31.645 --> 00:42:35.345
the app that they use. But the hardware is absolutely brilliant.
495
00:42:35.885 --> 00:42:37.025
Right? So
496
00:42:37.830 --> 00:42:42.810
hardware and software are very different. And but when you make the whole banana as a company,
497
00:42:43.110 --> 00:42:45.130
right, you have both
498
00:42:45.765 --> 00:42:46.265
problems
499
00:42:46.805 --> 00:42:48.665
and both solutions. Right? So it's like,
500
00:42:49.525 --> 00:43:03.115
you really try to, like, straddle a very complicated line there of, like, how do you handle this stuff? Right? How do you handle competitors? How do we handle the factory trying to copy you? For example, we don't make the stuff in China mostly for security. But
501
00:43:04.555 --> 00:43:06.015
it's not a simple thing.
502
00:43:07.035 --> 00:43:08.095
And all the chips,
503
00:43:08.475 --> 00:43:17.869
there really is where the magic is, not the PCB and, you know, some stupid LC circuit or whatever. Like, the actual chips are fully fully closed
504
00:43:18.305 --> 00:43:34.000
505
00:43:34.964 --> 00:43:45.079
and to drift. And if we don't manage to pass along information because we're gonna have to hide it or we protect it, some people don't feel like they can look at it.
506
00:43:45.619 --> 00:43:56.865
507
00:43:57.885 --> 00:43:59.984
you know, we wouldn't have changed our license.
508
00:44:00.290 --> 00:44:05.190
Right? Or, like, other people would have contributed back. They they could have contributed back to our project.
509
00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:08.950
Right? And then we would not feel morally entitled
510
00:44:09.555 --> 00:44:11.815
to to do that either. Right?
511
00:44:12.194 --> 00:44:21.120
That's where the the the trust and verify part comes in. Right? We're still humans and we still need some trust. We still need to, like, sort of find
512
00:44:21.660 --> 00:44:24.800
some cohesion and sort of work together towards things.
513
00:44:25.345 --> 00:44:28.085
So we have to trust each other to not be dicks.
514
00:44:28.785 --> 00:44:38.420
It's like, don't be a dick really is the best way of handling business. And when people are dicks, you need a solution. Try to a scaling solution. Exactly. The exact
515
00:44:38.720 --> 00:44:41.455
516
00:44:42.095 --> 00:44:51.780
517
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:59.665
518
00:44:59.965 --> 00:45:03.665
519
00:45:04.045 --> 00:45:06.545
Right. Right? Because then you're gonna be able to verify.
520
00:45:07.210 --> 00:45:11.470
So, like, it's it's a their culture gets to be Oh, yeah. I have another question.
521
00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:13.230
522
00:45:55.900 --> 00:45:58.160
Is licensed. Right? But then
523
00:45:59.660 --> 00:46:03.215
524
00:46:43.165 --> 00:46:46.145
525
00:46:46.445 --> 00:46:46.945
perspective,
526
00:46:47.325 --> 00:46:48.625
you can't steal information.
527
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:52.020
So in a sense, nobody's being harmed
528
00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:53.220
in that
529
00:46:53.680 --> 00:46:58.340
act. That's not how I do it. So, yeah, they went and copied a bunch of code.
530
00:46:59.725 --> 00:47:05.345
And as far as the it was illegal. I mean, that's just a whole whole mess.
531
00:47:05.725 --> 00:47:07.185
532
00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:12.400
like, hit at 4 of them, they start building it out. Right? It's still not
533
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:22.465
534
00:47:22.765 --> 00:47:23.985
at the click of a button.
535
00:47:25.165 --> 00:47:25.665
536
00:47:27.350 --> 00:47:34.170
Again, it's one of those things that it depends on what the scale and and what parts of the system it touches to.
537
00:47:35.195 --> 00:47:35.855
You know,
538
00:47:36.315 --> 00:47:37.135
we assume
539
00:47:37.435 --> 00:47:39.135
that all our new text,
540
00:47:40.395 --> 00:47:44.310
suite is being used by, say, Cloner. Right? But we can't prove it. Right? And,
541
00:47:44.610 --> 00:47:47.910
you know, they'll probably delete it from their computers if there was ever a concern.
542
00:47:49.970 --> 00:47:50.470
And
543
00:47:51.395 --> 00:47:51.895
it's,
544
00:47:53.715 --> 00:47:55.735
I I think I'm a capitalist first
545
00:47:56.195 --> 00:47:57.015
in a sense.
546
00:47:59.049 --> 00:47:59.789
I want
547
00:48:00.089 --> 00:48:02.430
people who create value to society
548
00:48:02.730 --> 00:48:03.390
to be
549
00:48:03.849 --> 00:48:04.349
remunerated
550
00:48:04.650 --> 00:48:06.109
for the value that's created.
551
00:48:08.345 --> 00:48:09.165
I see
552
00:48:09.545 --> 00:48:12.765
I don't like to see brilliant people having to beg for money,
553
00:48:14.025 --> 00:48:14.525
and
554
00:48:15.065 --> 00:48:17.645
we do live in a 5th world still. So
555
00:48:18.490 --> 00:48:20.109
I'd rather they be pragmatic,
556
00:48:20.730 --> 00:48:22.430
figure out a way of monetizing
557
00:48:22.730 --> 00:48:23.630
their brilliantness
558
00:48:23.930 --> 00:48:26.910
so they keep on doing that and adding value to society.
559
00:48:27.474 --> 00:48:27.974
Right?
560
00:48:29.795 --> 00:48:31.415
And, you know, maybe
561
00:48:32.275 --> 00:48:39.090
maybe they release they change the license as the last version went or something. You know, there's no clear answers.
562
00:48:40.270 --> 00:48:44.609
But, you know, for as long as we have the money printer, the incentives are malaligned.
563
00:48:45.055 --> 00:48:45.555
Right?
564
00:48:45.935 --> 00:48:49.555
And and then malalignment is what causes people to be dicks.
565
00:48:50.095 --> 00:48:55.650
566
00:48:56.030 --> 00:49:05.285
567
00:49:05.905 --> 00:49:11.200
Okay. Right? Who's gonna give you free capital in a world where the liquidity cost is high?
568
00:49:42.434 --> 00:49:42.934
Subscribers.
569
00:49:50.425 --> 00:49:55.565
570
00:49:56.585 --> 00:49:58.525
They have, like, some kind of, like,
571
00:50:48.530 --> 00:50:49.990
you know, that's why specifically
572
00:50:50.290 --> 00:50:51.590
with marble slices.
573
00:50:52.370 --> 00:50:54.470
You as a plumber cannot
574
00:50:55.545 --> 00:50:57.645
attain that piece of hardware because
575
00:50:58.425 --> 00:51:02.425
they're gonna excel because you violated that final license. So
576
00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:05.460
577
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.020
like, a little bit, it's like all wires close.
578
00:51:08.640 --> 00:51:15.275
Okay? Everything. All your Raspberry Pis are closed source. Everything that you have It's found. It's found.
579
00:51:15.975 --> 00:51:16.875
Every single
580
00:51:17.175 --> 00:51:21.595
chip that you have on something, even if the source of it is viewable, it's closed.
581
00:51:22.040 --> 00:51:25.580
Okay, boom. All every single block that goes in the die.
582
00:51:27.240 --> 00:51:28.859
583
00:51:29.395 --> 00:51:30.615
584
00:51:31.155 --> 00:51:32.455
I can't do this.
585
00:51:33.715 --> 00:51:34.215
So,
586
00:51:36.329 --> 00:51:43.309
you know, it becomes a sort of like LARPing exercise of, like, which part of the stack is closed, which part of the stack is open.
587
00:51:44.035 --> 00:51:44.535
It,
588
00:51:44.915 --> 00:51:45.895
you know, like, I
589
00:51:46.595 --> 00:51:48.775
choose not to live in a LARPing world.
590
00:51:49.315 --> 00:51:53.990
Like, I I just find it very counter sort of productive in that sense.
591
00:51:54.290 --> 00:52:00.070
I I rather sort of, like, try to just, like, move forward a little bit with the stuff where possible
592
00:52:00.674 --> 00:52:01.974
and commercially viable?
593
00:52:02.355 --> 00:52:02.855
Because,
594
00:52:03.315 --> 00:52:04.375
you know, DIY
595
00:52:05.154 --> 00:52:11.510
doesn't scale, and it's not really as good as most commercial stuff, Right? Realistically speaking. So
596
00:52:12.050 --> 00:52:20.155
how can we make sure that we have high quality commercial stuff that has some decent values in it, right, and move society forward.
597
00:52:20.934 --> 00:52:25.035
So that's sort of like the space I'd rather be in. And then, like,
598
00:52:25.895 --> 00:52:26.555
you know,
599
00:52:27.100 --> 00:52:29.040
I love the in cap stuff.
600
00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:42.025
I still don't have a lot of answers, and I don't think anybody ever did. And if you read even miss this, like, there is no full answer there to to handle especially modern complex societies. Well, if we did, then it'd be an argument for sex plan.
601
00:52:42.485 --> 00:52:51.190
Exactly. Right? We like, it's messy. Right? And you you just progressively become even more messy as we have less government.
602
00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:54.790
You know, governance without central planning,
603
00:52:55.105 --> 00:52:59.045
by definition, is decentralized. Right? And rough consensus
604
00:52:59.345 --> 00:53:01.285
is gonna be true on all this stuff.
605
00:53:01.825 --> 00:53:09.030
606
00:53:09.490 --> 00:53:13.510
607
00:53:13.915 --> 00:53:18.735
Stupid, like, modern government democracy stuff is all, like, done in bed. But, like,
608
00:53:19.595 --> 00:53:23.210
you know, you can still have, like, say we run a Citadel. Right?
609
00:53:23.530 --> 00:53:25.869
We we still gonna have some centralized
610
00:53:26.490 --> 00:53:26.990
committees,
611
00:53:27.290 --> 00:53:30.430
like, sort of sorting out stuff because we don't wanna make duplication.
612
00:53:31.255 --> 00:53:31.755
Right?
613
00:53:32.295 --> 00:53:33.915
We don't need more than 1 podcast.
614
00:53:36.455 --> 00:53:36.955
Bumps?
615
00:53:38.375 --> 00:53:39.115
No. See,
616
00:53:39.540 --> 00:53:51.315
there is no answer to any of this stuff except from like, you know, like, you put your ass on the line, you build something, you try to sell it, and then you just handle the market as it comes. Twitter fact checkers have determined that statement is misleading.
617
00:53:55.135 --> 00:53:58.500
618
00:54:49.550 --> 00:54:53.570
619
00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:56.450
You know, I can see how from a user perspective,
620
00:54:57.075 --> 00:55:03.095
like, you know, the the QR thing is like it looks like this big thing. Right? But that's, like,
621
00:55:03.555 --> 00:55:04.055
0.3%
622
00:55:04.755 --> 00:55:05.815
of the bulk base.
623
00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:14.300
Right? The true value of the fame is that we don't lose your money. Right? So no. That's totally fine. Right? But now
624
00:55:15.775 --> 00:55:28.430
if first of all, there is what Peter wants. Right? Like, Peter says he wants some QR or something like that. Like, that is not true for the market. Like, so much so that, you know, Tresno is still selling a design from
625
00:55:28.810 --> 00:55:31.070
2013 that is gonna secure. Ledger
626
00:55:31.370 --> 00:55:32.990
sells Jesus Christ.
627
00:55:33.375 --> 00:55:33.875
Concealed
628
00:55:34.175 --> 00:55:34.675
devices
629
00:55:34.975 --> 00:55:41.880
and the device, like, you could barely read the screen. Right? So there is sort of like a a fake demand for it.
630
00:55:42.279 --> 00:55:46.380
631
00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:47.740
632
00:55:48.440 --> 00:55:49.579
633
00:55:52.145 --> 00:55:52.645
Clearly
634
00:55:54.145 --> 00:55:54.645
ways
635
00:55:55.424 --> 00:55:57.845
you're having through SD cards and just
636
00:55:58.300 --> 00:56:02.060
637
00:56:02.700 --> 00:56:07.210
638
00:56:08.425 --> 00:56:14.045
639
00:56:15.010 --> 00:56:17.430
I can appreciate that some people may want that,
640
00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:24.630
but, you know, it the demand is so low that the phone didn't sell even, I think, about half of the devices they had.
641
00:56:25.135 --> 00:56:29.234
Right? They just gave it away to try to sort of build some some, like,
642
00:56:29.775 --> 00:56:32.755
you know, like, influential demand or whatever. Right?
643
00:56:57.980 --> 00:56:58.960
Yeah. I
644
00:56:59.315 --> 00:57:00.855
I I totally feel that,
645
00:57:01.235 --> 00:57:04.615
but, you know, first, we cannot appease everyone.
646
00:57:04.915 --> 00:57:07.015
Right? Everyone wants something different.
647
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:14.980
You know, we can't make more business decisions based solely on these things because, you know, the world is not fair,
648
00:57:15.405 --> 00:57:22.145
and people don't act morally and and, like, you know, they're gonna do stupid stuff. So, you know, we may lose a few customers.
649
00:57:22.610 --> 00:57:23.990
That was a known
650
00:57:24.370 --> 00:57:25.190
sort of, like,
651
00:57:25.730 --> 00:57:30.470
problem with changing dial license, and I appreciate that. But you know what actually happened?
652
00:57:31.125 --> 00:57:36.984
We actually innovated more. Right? We we've been continuously adding more features, and we actually grew
653
00:57:37.285 --> 00:57:37.785
by,
654
00:57:38.085 --> 00:57:39.865
like, almost, like, 10 x.
655
00:57:41.390 --> 00:57:49.650
So so, like, the market is is rewarding. That no no more. So what? Make other products as well though. So, like, you grew,
656
00:57:52.285 --> 00:57:55.825
Well, it it did. Like, we're gonna learn about art to this tomorrow.
657
00:58:06.655 --> 00:58:10.195
Do you build stuff? Do you build stuff?
658
00:58:11.775 --> 00:58:12.755
659
00:58:13.530 --> 00:58:16.350
660
00:58:17.370 --> 00:58:19.150
if you're not shipping a product,
661
00:58:20.010 --> 00:58:20.750
right, yourself,
662
00:58:21.484 --> 00:58:25.425
it's a lot easier to have opinions like that because
663
00:58:26.204 --> 00:58:29.505
you are not the one who actually pays the bills
664
00:58:29.980 --> 00:58:35.279
to get a factory to build inventory or to source parts or to develop the stuff. Right?
665
00:58:35.740 --> 00:58:39.200
I forego opportunity cost to make that happen.
666
00:58:39.735 --> 00:58:40.235
Right?
667
00:58:41.735 --> 00:58:49.020
While you're not shipping it. Right? So you're not feeling that pain. And and, you know, to you, it may seem like a simple
668
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:50.300
sort of, like,
669
00:58:51.240 --> 00:58:51.740
moral
670
00:58:52.200 --> 00:58:56.855
understanding of, like, you know, like, respect versus not whatever. Right? And it's
671
00:58:57.235 --> 00:59:01.175
fair. Right? But it it's a very unwise view because,
672
00:59:01.555 --> 00:59:04.775
again, it's no skin in the game. Right? And
673
00:59:05.490 --> 00:59:09.510
again, it sucks that we may lose people like you I'd love to have as a customer.
674
00:59:09.810 --> 00:59:11.590
Right? Because mark 4 is awesome.
675
00:59:11.970 --> 00:59:12.470
But,
676
00:59:13.474 --> 00:59:21.974
you know, I I really I can't appease everybody. And and I'm following the market here, and we're trying to make the thing that we actually like. The thing that we wanna make.
677
00:59:22.990 --> 00:59:29.410
678
00:59:57.849 --> 00:59:59.630
679
00:59:59.930 --> 01:00:03.230
like, just from our perspective is just a lot of noise
680
01:00:03.930 --> 01:00:05.390
and sucking of oxygen
681
01:00:06.135 --> 01:00:07.355
based on our
682
01:00:07.895 --> 01:00:08.875
sort of work.
683
01:00:09.815 --> 01:00:10.315
And,
684
01:00:10.935 --> 01:00:21.130
you know, just fuck it. Like, you know what? I'm gonna cut you off. If you're gonna be a dick in my stuff, I'm gonna cut you off. I have no issues with that. I don't see that as a bad thing.
685
01:00:23.085 --> 01:00:23.805
686
01:00:24.285 --> 01:00:27.745
This has been a great conversation. I'd like to end in the final thoughts.
687
01:00:28.125 --> 01:00:35.970
We are closing up on time. Tony, final thoughts. So we did that man to Mike as it's still been a while. I'm just, your good, good face.
688
01:00:36.670 --> 01:00:37.890
689
01:00:38.190 --> 01:00:40.059
690
01:01:12.755 --> 01:01:16.375
That's fucking good. We appreciate your help with that. It's been a long time for me.
691
01:01:16.995 --> 01:01:18.295
Final thoughts, Evan.
692
01:01:18.675 --> 01:01:20.195
693
01:01:20.820 --> 01:01:25.480
Goldkart or reverting their license at some point. In the meantime, I still need for.
694
01:01:26.100 --> 01:01:26.920
Maybe begrudgingly.
695
01:01:28.555 --> 01:01:29.694
Run your end mode
696
01:01:30.075 --> 01:01:31.615
and, download, please.
697
01:01:32.234 --> 01:01:34.575
698
01:01:35.010 --> 01:01:35.510
699
01:01:36.530 --> 01:01:36.850
Forrest,
700
01:01:38.450 --> 01:01:40.470
we have, like, really oversubscribed
701
01:01:41.250 --> 01:01:41.910
the reservations.
702
01:01:42.675 --> 01:01:44.775
I hope to start shipping it next week.
703
01:01:45.795 --> 01:01:46.855
Nobody heard that.
704
01:01:47.955 --> 01:01:48.355
And,
705
01:01:49.075 --> 01:01:52.400
the cards are coming out. And, anyways, just check our stuff.
706
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:54.099
We keep on innovating
707
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:55.200
even though,
708
01:01:55.839 --> 01:01:57.539
it is a complicated license.
709
01:01:58.160 --> 01:02:04.705
710
01:02:05.245 --> 01:02:07.185
I'm really looking forward to mid depths.
711
01:02:07.565 --> 01:02:13.490
We have food and drinks in the back. I'm helping yourself before mid death starts. It should starting about 25 minutes.
712
01:02:13.950 --> 01:02:19.810
I hope to see most of you in the open source stage over the next 3 days. It's absolutely massive at the conference.
713
01:02:20.195 --> 01:02:22.215
It was way bigger than I expected,
714
01:02:23.315 --> 01:02:23.815
and,
715
01:02:24.595 --> 01:02:26.455
cheers. I love you all, Sam. Success.
