Feb. 23, 2022
CD57: bitcoin crowdfunding and donations with @coinjoiner, @pavlenex, and tony
EPISODE: 57
BLOCK: 724509
PRICE: 2643 sats per dollar
TOPICS: donations, crowdfunding, btcpayserver, satsale, address reuse, bip47, circular economy, best practices for using funds after receipt, reducing friction, hosting donations for others
@coinjoiner: https://twitter.com/coinjoiner
@pavlenex: https://twitter.com/pavlenex
Full Transcript: https://chowcollection.medium.com/matt-odell-citadel-dispatch-e57-bitcoin-crowdfunding-donations-with-coinjoiner-pavlenex-6e30817b7736
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00:00 - Volatility and security of digital currency
10:00 - Controlling your own Bitcoin and the importance of private keys
16:00 - The potential impact of government actions on cryptocurrency adoption
23:00 - Considerations for accepting Bitcoin donations or crowdfunding
36:00 - Overview of BTC Pay Server and its features
40:00 - Overview of SatSale and its features
45:00 - Discussion on BIP 47 and its use in SatSale
50:07 - Why is there a need to run a server for a simple donation?
51:15 - The future of Bitcoin and unique identifiers
01:04:23 - Privacy considerations for crowdfunding and managing funds
01:38:23 - Utilizing funds and advising on options for nonprofits
01:39:05 - Options for Bitcoiners to help nonprofits
01:43:09 - Encouraging merchant adoption of Bitcoin
01:55:43 - Considering accepting Monero for donations in an adversarial environment
02:01:49 - Contributing to BTCPayServer and Bitcoin.design
02:03:36 - Contributing to SatsBack and Gun
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:28:45 PM
Duration: 7973.146
Channels: 1
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Volatility ahead. This is scary moment. Marty Benn is the founder of Tales From the Crypto, a Bitcoin podcast. He joins us tonight to explain. Marty, thanks so much for coming on. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this, and it's easy to, you know, play the tape of people getting run over by horses, but the idea they could just seize your digital currency
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strikes me as a very big deal.
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Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, Tucker. But, yes, they can only seize your digital currency or Bitcoin if you're holding it on an exchange like you Right. Like you mentioned. It's much harder for them to seize it if you're
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in control of your Bitcoin
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by holding your own private keys, which is the beauty and the importance of Bitcoin as a monetary revolution. It allows you to actually control your money. It is a digital
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bearer instrument. It is digital cash. So as long as people are taking control of their own private keys, it's it's significantly harder to
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stop the spread of Bitcoin and prevent people from sending transactions.
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So that's without getting too technical here, and thank you for saying that. So the the promise of cryptocurrency
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is still in place that you can
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operate transactionally without government oversight. How complicated is it not to use an exchange but to hold the keys for yourself? Would the average person
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do something like that?
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Yeah. It's very easy. I mean, there's plenty of mobile apps that you can go download,
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whether it be Blue Wallet, Green Wallet. You can find those in your iOS stores or Android apps. These are open source wallets that anybody can download and easily create private keys and their their Bitcoin from an exchange directly to a wallet. They can back up their wallet with 12 words
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that if they were able to memorize them, theoretically, they can walk around with their Bitcoin in their heads. So it's it's very simple to to access the software that enables you to take control
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of your of your Bitcoin and and actually custody it yourself.
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God. I mean, you gotta think if they're zeroing up people's bank accounts for political reasons, there's gonna be a rush to cryptocurrency. I mean, in in one sentence, do you expect that? Do you expect crypto to become more popular after this?
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Oh, I I think certainly we've seen
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the actions by the Canadian government,
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wake people up. Like, oh, if they can do this to our bank accounts,
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for protesting
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about civil liberties. Like, how how far
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will will they go to to stop us from transacting,
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using the traditional system. And so I think over the last few weeks, people are really beginning to recognize the beauty,
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of Bitcoin and the utility it provides as a distributed network that nobody can control as long as you're controlling your own Bitcoin and you have those words written down secured,
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you
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you have the the freedom to control your money.
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Which is,
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it turns out the core freedom.
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Marty Bent, thanks so much for that explanation. Good to see you.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy, Odell, here for Citadel dispatch 57.
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Citadel dispatch is the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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If you're used to listening and watching us
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on YouTube,
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Marty had a controversial doctor on, so we are suspended from streaming to YouTube.
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So if you're watching this on, Twitter and you're looking for a better platform to watch it, you can go to twitch.tv/citaldispatch,
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or you can go to our bitcoin tv.com channel.
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It's streaming from both of those places.
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As always, I wanna thank,
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the many freaks who continue to support the show.
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Dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.
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Your support keeps us purely focused on actual Bitcoin discussion, and I really do appreciate it.
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The easiest way to support the show is going to citadel dispatch.com/contribute.
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We have a BTC pay server set up. You can contribute via lightning or on chain.
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I also have a BIP 47 payment code there.
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The most common I mean, the only way to send to that right now is samurai wallet, but, hopefully, in the future, looks like we're gonna get some more BIP 47 support, so other wallets will be able to send to that. That is on chain.
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Another way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps.
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My two favorite are Breezewallet
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and Fountain Podcasts. They work like regular podcast apps.
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You
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download the app.
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You load it up with sats.
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You search Siddle Dispatch, press the subscribe button, and then you can pick how many sats per minute you think, dispatch is worth. And then as you're listening, it'll stream sats, directly to my node.
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You can also support the show via merch. We got our dispatch hat, cildispatch.com/stack.
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And we have other partners that are providing merch,
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other freaks,
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which is which is greatly appreciated, including Quinsolo and BTC Pens. There's a flask up there, and
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there's a pin and a magnet. Or maybe there's just a magnet for sale now. Maybe BTC pins, that was a limited time only on the pins.
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Anyway, we have a really important conversation today, very topical.
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It's Bitcoin crowdfunding and receiving donations,
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ideally with privacy best practices followed.
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We're gonna try and model this conversation
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off of the beginner's guide I did with
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Bitcoin q and a. So we're gonna start it with a, basically,
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a
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clear, concise way of if you wanna start accepting Bitcoin donations or do a crowd fund, what is the best way for you to do it? And then from there, we're gonna go into deeper conversation.
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As always, you can join the live chat. The easiest way to get to that is citadel dispatch.com, and then clicking that Citadel chat link and then following the instructions. It's hosted on Matrix.
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Even when the show is not going on, we have
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over 800 Bitcoiners in that room now, and there's just a lot of actionable Bitcoin discussion that happens throughout,
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the week. So consider joining us there. It is
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quickly becoming my preferred platform over Twitter
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for actual Bitcoin discussion.
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So with all that said, I got some great guests for this topic.
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The first guest is, Tony, who's joining for maybe the 5th time on dispatch. He's live in person at the studio with me. How's it going, Tony? It's good. Good to be here.
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This is a super important topic. I'm glad that we have the guests that we have. Fuck. Yes. Thank you for joining us.
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We have Pavel next from BTC page server. How's it going, Pavel next?
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Hey, guys. Awesome as always. Super excited to discuss this important topic with you, gentlemen, so let's go.
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Cheers. And we
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have CoinJoiner. We have Nick, who's the lead maintainer of SatSale,
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a lesser known
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a lesser known project to accept Bitcoin donations that is extremely promising. How's it going, Nick? It's a pleasure to join the Freaks live. Thanks for having me. Likewise. To get into this.
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Well, thank you for joining us. I'm very excited for this conversation.
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So, I mean,
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when we start here, we have,
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obviously,
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the elephant in the room is,
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the Canadian government blocked,
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traditional financial support,
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crowdfunding platforms such as GoFundMe and GiveSendGo,
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for the Canadian freedom protests that have been happening.
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And a lot of people have moved over to Bitcoin. And there's a there was specifically one major fundraiser
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that was using Tali coin,
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which is
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a a centralized platform that allows you to do self custody. So you don't host the whole thing yourself,
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but you're able to actually hold your own keys and accept directly to your lightning node.
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That is maintained by DJ Booth.
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Unfortunately, given, you know, government pressure and whatnot, he wants to lay low. He was invited,
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to join us as were other people that were involved, in that
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raise.
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But I wanted to where I like, where do you guys think is the best place to start? If someone is
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trying to,
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is is trying to
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raise Bitcoin,
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for a cause, whether that's donations or whether that's a crowdfunding type of situation.
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What are some things that they should be considering before they even begin that process?
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Yeah. Well, maybe, we can start with what people have done traditionally,
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which is sort of you see quite a lot is they post a Bitcoin address sort of in their bio or like the footer of their website.
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And and the consideration you should really think about there long and hard is,
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what privacy you're giving away when you when you post that address publicly and you reuse it for all your donors.
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So I'm sure we'll get into sort of the consequences of
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that. That yeah. That's a great point, Nick. So let's let's talk about that. So so tally the tally coin raise was using a fixed address. It is definitely the most common way of raising Bitcoin, just taking a Bitcoin address and pasting it
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into whatever
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medium you want to publicly post that in. It could be, you know, Twitter. It could be Facebook. It could be your website.
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What is the downside of that, and what should people be considering there?
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So so when you post an address like that publicly,
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basically, everyone can go and look that address up in a block explorer. So, like, menpool.space
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or,
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any other block explorer. And they can go and look at all the donations that have you you've received,
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and
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they can so they can see, that that you've got you've received, like, 2 Bitcoin donations.
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And they can also, like,
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do some sort of analytics on that and just try and figure out maybe who donated
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or that could link,
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your donors,
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to that donation,
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fundraising.
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And the other thing is that
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when you go to spend that money,
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now those that those UTXOs
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have sort of been
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publicly linked to your identity.
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So
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you're receiving all this Bitcoin in the address, and everyone knows
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that that address belongs to you because you posted it on your website or on your Twitter.
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So people can sort of follow what you do with that money once you've raised it.
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Yeah. For
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me, just naming it an address is a little bit of an UX problem because people
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know that they have single email. They have address where they live. So it's like an an unique identifier that they use to receive donations. So
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addresses, I like to tinker them as invoices. You
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generate an each invoices
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invoice when you are getting paid,
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traditionally. So if we were to call address,
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payment request in a way or an invoice, I think
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It could help people understand that they shouldn't be,
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reusing addresses because that's one of the basic
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privacy new news as Nick explained.
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So I I think it can also be, you know, then just just the naming problem because people you know, I generated an address, and now I can put it in. As you mentioned, traditionally, they've been putting it everywhere, and it is so easy to
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you know, be able to think Bitcoin is, you know, anonymous, but it's really not. And it's very easy to see through blockchain what's going on, who donated, and you
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can very easily, basically,
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the an deanonymize the the
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donors and people who, you know, are supporting your cause, which is exactly what happened with the Canadian Truckers. Right? Right. So you wanna talk about what happened with their fixed address
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for the freaks?
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Yeah. Sure. Like, I haven't been following the story,
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like, very closely, but
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on
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most basic level from what I understood,
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they've been reusing
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address in order to, receive
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payments in Bitcoin through the from their donors. So,
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basically, Canadian government and please correct me if I'm wrong because I've been just following this on Twitter. So, Canadian government basically blacklisted those addresses, and now they cannot use those funds. Am I am I right? Or is Yeah. So they they they reused an address or, I guess, they reused an invoice if we're gonna go by your nomenclature.
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And that was very obvious to determine. You just went to, the donation website, and you could just see that every time you clicked on chain, it was the same address. You could put it into a block explorer, whether that's a hosted block explorer like mempool.space,
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or if it's a local block explorer that you're running with your own node,
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which could also be mempool,
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they or, like, a block stream dot info. You put it in there, and you could see all donations. Now
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what happens in that situation? 2 things happen. First of all,
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your transactions after,
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donations are received. What you do with that money afterwards,
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can be tracked.
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And it's important to realize that
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even if something's not being actively tracked, the blockchain is forever. This ledger of transactions that we have of Bitcoin,
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if we are correct, will outlive all of us,
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so it can be used in the future against you. But not only can future transactions be tracked,
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it can also be used to determine donors.
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One of the traditional financial
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tools that was used,
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before the ban came into place was this website called GiveSendGo,
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and they required KYC to donate,
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using fiat. And what happened was they got hacked, they were storing that information insecurely,
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and now there's a list of donors out there,
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that are being doxxed,
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that are being harassed, that are being there's articles being written about them. These people are in your community. They're supporting,
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these protesters. You should cancel them. So it exposes the donators, and it also exposes,
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the people or
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the flow of funds after the fact.
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Now the Canadian government,
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in this specific case
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chose to basically issue a quiet blacklist order,
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alongside
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a freeze order that was a court order that was public.
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The blacklist order went out to regulated services,
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in Canada, regulated Bitcoin services in Canada. It said if if you interact,
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with this address or
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a derivative address, so an address that comes after it,
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please report all that information to us, you know, the identity of the people that interacted with it, what they're doing with it.
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So they don't have and, by the way, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that this opening clip that we had on CIL dispatch 57
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been showing,
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mainstream media clips for 56 episodes. Now 57 was our own boy, Marty.
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He was on Fox talking about this. So shout out to him. It's a massive fucking accomplishment. Very proud of him. Watched that live.
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He actually,
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he's he's on a family vacation staying at an Airbnb, and Fox drove a studio van outside of his Airbnb.
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And Marty walked out barefoot and did the interview barefoot, which is fucking baller.
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Fuck. Yeah. I saw that, the Photoshop of him doing it in the pool.
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That's so good. Yeah. That's because he did the rabbit hole recap previously with me in the pool, and someone photoshopped it in. It was one of the best photoshops I've seen.
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But yeah. So so they can't actually freeze
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Bitcoin that is being held self custody. And Marty made a very good point of saying that on Fox.
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But what they can do is they can track it, and they can make your life as difficult as possible and stop you from interacting with regulated exchanges. And that's what they did. They issued this freeze order.
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The funds were still distributed to truckers that are involved in the protests.
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Those those transactions are very obvious on chain. You can see the flow of funds to those people.
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They also went
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another step, and they took videos of of them giving it to the truckers. So the actual truckers that received it are known. So we know how much Bitcoin they have. We can watch their transactions. We know,
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who they are specifically. So they've already had their banks account seized. In most situations, they've had their insurance cut, and now they're known to be holding this Bitcoin,
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and their transactions going forward can be tracked.
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So,
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that's what happens when you're reusing an address.
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Fortunately, in Bitcoin,
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we have the ability to
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not reuse addresses. Oh, and, actually, I would add on top of this,
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the tally coin fundraiser accepted lightning
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as well as on chain.
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The Lightning,
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transactions
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far outnumbered the on chain transactions, but the actual amount
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was significantly less. It was something like, you know, 95%
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of the value that was transmitted to the fundraiser was done so on chain,
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but,
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maybe 60% of the actual number of payments was done via Lightning. And this doesn't
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they have not been able to necessarily actively track those Lightning payments.
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It was obvious that it was going to BTC Sessions node.
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So there's other aspects there,
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that people should keep in mind.
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If you go it we'll probably keep the lightning side minimal, but if you go to cildispatch.com/cd21, cildispatch 21, that is where we discuss all the nuances of lightning privacy, so people should go there if they're they're interested. But, anyway, fortunately, we have the ability
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to receive
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Bitcoin
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without
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re address reuse. And 2 of the ways of doing that is BTC pay server, which Pavel, next is is
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a major part of that open source project. And the another way is SatSale, which Nick is the lead maintainer of. So should we go into
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should we go into how how someone could could set up one of those instances to receive Bitcoin in a more private way?
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Yeah. Sure.
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Do you wanna start?
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Well, BTC pay server is older, so I guess they have a kick start.
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So, yeah,
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like, BTC pay server is an open source
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payment processor,
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which allows you to
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basically accept Bitcoin payments whether you're a merchant or just
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trying to raise fund funds for your cause. It's a self hosted piece of software, which means you're hosting it on your own terms, on your own servers,
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and you're in complete control of the private keys that you have.
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So you you basically own the entire payment
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platform, and I'm assume it's very similar to,
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your project, Nick. Right?
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Mhmm. Yep. Yep. Very similar.
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From from what I understood, like, yours is a little bit more lightweight, but you probably wanna pitch it in a better way than I do. Why don't we I think a good format here is, Pavel, why don't you go through BTC pay server? It's the one that most Bitcorners are more familiar with.
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And then we'll have Nick,
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talk about the different trade off decisions he made that differentiated,
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from BTC Pay. And, also, like, let's highlight the fact that I mean, Pavel, you have run crowdfunding
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through BTCPay.
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Big one was bitcoin smiles, I believe, dot org,
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in El Salvador. So let's talk about that a little bit and your experiences and how someone might go and use BTCPay. Like, in practice, like, okay.
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I wanna raise funds with BTCPay. How do I do that?
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Yeah. Okay. Let's let's talk, with by giving an example.
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Actually, that's better. So I'm sure the listeners are familiar with, for example, software like WordPress, which you basically allows you to create a website, you host it, and you can, you know, write your own blog post. It's very similar with BTC based server. It's a self hosted software which you're running,
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which allows you to accept Bitcoin payments.
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We do allow you to connect with your ecommerce platforms like, WooCommerce, Shopify, and others, Magento, and a few others. But, also, we have a software.
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Actually, we call them apps, which allow you to run an entire website
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on top of your payment platform. And, you can have
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point of sale application if you're a merchant accepting Bitcoin in in retail. But for our discussion, I think the one which is very interesting is a crowdfunding application,
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which we built, I believe, 3 years ago now now, and, we had several successful big campaigns. If you remember, Matt,
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Huddl Note campaign was hosted on BTC based server crowdfunding. It was our first use case where we raised, funds for our
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fellow Bitcoiner who had the, you know, loss of problems. Let's know maybe go into that specific case. But
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then we did,
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one of crowdfunding for Bitcoin for Tor.
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And now we have,
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bitcoin smiles dotorg, which listeners can go ahead and, you know, type in bitcoin smiles dotorg, and you will see,
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a website where when you click donate, it leads you to a separate
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server payment server, which,
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you know, they are hosting, and you can simply send payments to them. A BTC pay server is you can think of it as an invoice management system, which generates invoices for your donors.
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It is unlike the example we gave earlier. BTC based server does not
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reuse address. So we create whenever a payment is detected
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and wherever an invoice is generated. Whenever somebody clicks donate on Bitcoin Smiles, for example,
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we generate a brand new invoice. And when it's paid or when it expires, we will simply show another one for, you know, whoever else wants to donate. So there is never address we use
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with, BTC pay server, and that is, like, one of our first things that we built into software is never reusing addresses. In in any way, we strongly discourage
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that.
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So I'm not sure. Was that clear, or do you want me to go a little bit deeper on how it works? But maybe for this, it's
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enough. One of the things I'm curious about specifically is since you do have so many different options for BTC pay separate donations,
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like, what what is one that you would suggest over the other and and and why? Like, you have crowdfunding and then you have, you know, donation pages, as an option. Is there one particular reason to use one over the other?
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Yeah. So they have different features for crowdfunding.
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For example, you can, set up a goal. For example, I'm raising 1 Bitcoin, and then it will show you progress bar, and it's very interactive way. Peep you can even have special sound effects,
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you know, animations when people donate, things like that.
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If you want to go a little bit more lightweight or simpler way, you can have,
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for example, a simple page which just, has a payment button on our end where people can just input a number of $5
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or 5 Bitcoin or whatever currency you set up on your end, and then it will do the same thing. It generates an invoice, shows it. So on,
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like, very simply explain, it's very it works in a similar way. It just has different,
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user interface, basically.
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We,
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we built it with flexibility
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in mind, so we try to have, like, as many options and give freedom to people to customize their own pages
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and things like that. So that it's
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technically, it works very similarly. It's just the UI that's different for all these features.
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Right. And then with the crowdfunding approach, you can actually,
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people can visibly
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not on the block explorer, but through your through your UI, they can see kind of the status of the crowdfunding. And that almost, like, builds a network effect. And, you know, if you're, like, 80% on the way there, everyone comes forward and tries to get the last 20%.
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So but it does that in you know, while still not using the same address. Like, it I'm guessing that uses, like, the XPub behind the scenes to kinda visibly so show outsiders,
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that status.
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Yes. Yes. That's entirely correct.
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It it uses, yeah, XPub or public key, which you just input and you can have your
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private key stored offline.
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And, you know, we just generate addresses based on that,
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public key that you input. So
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it's very simple.
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And,
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for actually setting up a BTC pay server, I think, 2 of the things you guys have done really well. I mean,
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BTC pay in a lot of ways has kind of become
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the
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the classic project someone points to in terms of a successful open source project in the Bitcoin space that's not Bitcoin Core, because you just have such a huge community of open source contributors there. And that's not just developers. You have all this documentation
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in terms of how to actually set it up. Right? So you can use any VPS,
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and and you guys have, basically, step by step instructions.
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A VPS is a virtual private server. For these types of things, would you guys agree that you usually should have,
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basically, like, a a a a cloud server that is running your donations rather than actually running it from, like, your closet or something like that.
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Well, yeah, I agree. Because,
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for best performance, I guess, it is better to have it run on a virtual private server on a cloud because it is available, like, 247,
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you know, at home. You can have you you can run BTC based around a Raspberry Pi, but I'm not sure if it's, like, as reliable as it is on a VPS. But, you know, these small devices are getting better and better, and who knows? Maybe one day it will be even better to to run it that way. Though it also has some privacy implications
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by running it on a virtual private server, you're basically giving responsibility
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to whoever is hosting that server where you can have,
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your Bitcoin stored in your wallet at home.
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And your IP address can be, you know, somewhere in Germany or wherever the server is hosted. Of course, that is the attack factor on itself because then government can shut down that server, but then again, you can easily
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redeploy it on a different environment. So or or a different provider in this case. And that's, I mean, that's more risky. So I actually was I
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that's one of the things that I just have in the back of my head is, like, the question of, you know, how far the Canadian government wants to go because, you know, one of the providers that you guys constantly recommend is Luna Node because it's so cheap,
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yet reliable,
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and they're based in Canada. So you could see a situation where governments actually go and try and shut down,
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these server accounts,
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because it is visible, and anyone can really tell. I mean, a sophisticated actor can tell,
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where you're hosting it based on IP address.
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But at least with the on chain funds, the on chain funds, your actual private key, the spend key for your funds is not on the server,
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so your funds aren't necessarily at risk. You just need to go and redeploy. Now on Lightning,
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that's a little bit different, right, because you have a hot wallet on the server.
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Yeah. That's correct. That's the way Lightning works. It needs to be a hot wallet, and it needs to be available online in order to, you know, accept,
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payments. So
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that's a technical challenge.
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But, yeah, for, probably, for, if you're, like, concerned about,
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somebody's maybe, you know,
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shutting your server down and stealing your Bitcoin, you can either withdraw regularly
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or,
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yeah, basically, keep it on chain and secured,
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offline as you mentioned, Matt.
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And then the other thing that I feel like is important to highlight when the BTC pay server conversation comes up is right now, our friends at, voltage,
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voltage dot cloud,
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they are a Bitcoin infrastructure company that offers
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VPSs
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that you can pay with with Bitcoin without KYC.
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And right now, they offer LND for lightning, and they offer a one click BTC pay server. So you can go there, and you can literally just pay them Bitcoin,
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go through the steps, follow their instructions, and get a BTC pay server up and running, fairly easily.
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Yeah. That's that's right. Voltage guys are really doing awesome job. It's probably becoming even easier with what we had with Luna node. But all these hosting providers are just doing their best to provide, you know, best hosting server
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service for the software that we are creating. So for us, it is, like, very important that,
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these people in a way compete and try to provide better service and that we have,
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many alternatives. Ideally, we want, you know, BTC based server to be available like you have WordPress now. Like, any hosting provider can allow you one click installation
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of WordPress. Any BTC based server becomes popular, and
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I can see, like, even more,
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companies basically wanting to, you know, generate
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money just by having an easy way to deploy BTC based server and, in that regard, decentralizing.
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But, you know, BTC based server isn't just limited to these providers. You can run it with 4 lines of command line on any virtual private server that has, like, 2 gigabytes of RAM and 60, you
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know, storage. So
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it's,
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really easy to it's not as easy to do it with the with these Vault Edge and Luna node managed hosting, but it it you can really do it on any any virtual private server that, you know, meets these minimum requirements. And which aren't ideal, like, you know, it requires
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some resource resources because we are doing lots of things in the background for you so that you can, you know, easily
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have a a UI to to accept Bitcoin payments. But yeah.
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Do you ever see any,
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Tor options,
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for some of these provide some of these providers? I love the whole one click deploy thing, but I don't know if I've ever seen, like, a Tor option.
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When you say Tor, do you mean, like, your payment Yeah. Just payment gateway
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would be like an onion site?
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Yeah. Exactly. So, like, just onion only for those that don't want to reveal, like, what, you know, VPS or IP that they may be using.
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Yes. We we do that out of the box. BTC based server can be so,
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if you're from looking at from the perspective of people wanting to donate, for example, if you go to a payment page of Bitcoin Smiles, like, not the main site, but the
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donation,
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and you access it through Tor browser,
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it will pop up an onion address where you can, you know, be directed to to access it that way if that's what you're referring to. I'm not sure. Yeah. Exactly. But, I mean, the main trade off there, Tony, is that
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someone needs to be running Tor. Yeah. And the easiest way of being Tor Browser to access your donation page, so you're gonna get less people.
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If you're gonna do that, though, if you're if you're fine with that trade off, then all of a sudden, you might not even need a VPS in the first place. Because I would say
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the biggest,
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the biggest bottleneck of, you know, using one of these 247 node boxes at home to run your BTC pay server
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is if you don't wanna expose your IP address, it's Tor only. But if you're fine with Tor only,
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then it's not I I I don't I don't think it's that impractical to necessarily just, like, run it from a closet somewhere,
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at an office or home and and just have it out there on on an onion address. Yeah. Exactly. Especially for those that may already be running their lightning node on their Right. At their home, but they're not using IP at all. They're just using Tor. So I'd imagine, like, being able to you know, maybe for something as, like, you know, global and widespread as as, you know, what's going on in Canada, you know, your box maybe get hit hit a lot. But if it's just like, you know, the everyday user just trying to, you know, raise some funds, from, you know, just people out there, not like a super popular thing that's gonna hit get hit a lot, You know, Tor may still be a good option for you.
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Yes. Right. Yeah. This is only
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yeah. Sorry. But this is only, yeah, the the UX, I guess, and the people
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wanting to access the website through
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their browser. But, one good thing, there is that if you're using Tor and accessing,
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for example, I'm, now referring to Bitcoin Smile. But if you're accessing that donation,
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crowdfunding patch, it will just pop up a warning and say, hey. This one is available in that onion. Do you want to, you know, be directed there? And people using Tor can go there, and the ones that aren't will just, you know, see normal page. So that's a little bit of UX improvement that we also did. But I agree. It can be done. It just depends,
390
00:34:04.654 --> 00:34:10.180
if you're willing to sacrifice, you know, what a a little bit of, you know, u usability
391
00:34:10.640 --> 00:34:15.440
and UX in order to be more private and more secure or whatever. But
392
00:34:17.825 --> 00:34:21.684
Yes. So you could run BTC pay server or Satsail,
393
00:34:22.545 --> 00:34:24.805
from your home, like, on a Raspberry Pi,
394
00:34:25.579 --> 00:34:26.640
without Tor.
395
00:34:28.220 --> 00:34:36.005
But, yeah, I I sort of really tend to to discourage that because you are every time someone goes to make a donation,
396
00:34:37.505 --> 00:34:40.645
the payment page is gonna make a request to your IP address,
397
00:34:41.450 --> 00:34:43.069
to to fetch a new address
398
00:34:43.529 --> 00:34:45.470
or a new address for every donation.
399
00:34:46.250 --> 00:34:46.750
And
400
00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:55.525
that could leak your public IP address, which is probably not something you wanna have happen, especially if you're also running your Bitcoin node on that IP.
401
00:34:56.780 --> 00:34:59.520
It could open you up to a number of, like, attacks and,
402
00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:00.560
whatnot.
403
00:35:01.340 --> 00:35:06.320
And, I mean, it it lets your ISP know that you're using Bitcoin. It lets people know,
404
00:35:06.924 --> 00:35:12.545
it lets, like, the average user know your rough location down to, like, the city level. A sophisticated actor could actually
405
00:35:13.005 --> 00:35:17.170
figure out your exact, you know, home address or office address that you're running it in.
406
00:35:18.430 --> 00:35:22.530
There's a lot of privacy leaks if you're if you're running ClearNet from home. Right?
407
00:35:24.575 --> 00:35:25.615
Yeah. Yeah. It's,
408
00:35:26.575 --> 00:35:30.415
it's a bit of a tricky problem. So, yeah, VPS is a a sort of
409
00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:34.240
I agree with Pavlinx that that's that's the way to go, I think.
410
00:35:34.940 --> 00:35:38.240
Because, yeah, at the moment, I don't think enough people are using,
411
00:35:39.474 --> 00:35:46.775
Tor sort of natively or or frequently enough to make it sort of viable to get enough donations through an onion,
412
00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:48.440
payment gateway.
413
00:35:50.580 --> 00:35:54.600
I would I I tend to agree with you. I would say that Bitcorners are probably,
414
00:35:55.620 --> 00:35:56.120
more,
415
00:35:57.225 --> 00:35:57.725
predisposed
416
00:35:58.025 --> 00:36:00.525
to used for. But even among us,
417
00:36:02.665 --> 00:36:04.605
it definitely feels like it's still the minority.
418
00:36:05.790 --> 00:36:14.369
Yeah. It's not the first thing I use, but at least, like, if you're setting this up and you care about that, at least as an option, like, that's you know, in the back of your head, you can at least think about that when
419
00:36:14.695 --> 00:36:17.994
when, you know, evaluating using, you know, one of these services.
420
00:36:18.455 --> 00:36:19.435
That's a good point.
421
00:36:20.215 --> 00:36:22.635
So, I mean, I think that's a pretty good quick overview
422
00:36:22.935 --> 00:36:25.940
of what BTC page server brings to the table.
423
00:36:27.359 --> 00:36:33.859
Nick, you wanna talk about the differences with Satsale and what you're attempting to do with that project and the different trade offs you've made?
424
00:36:34.825 --> 00:36:35.725
Yeah. Sure.
425
00:36:36.105 --> 00:36:36.925
So Satsale
426
00:36:37.385 --> 00:36:38.685
is a lightweight,
427
00:36:39.465 --> 00:36:40.765
Bitcoin payment processor,
428
00:36:41.830 --> 00:36:45.530
and it connects to your own Bitcoin node or or lightning network node.
429
00:36:46.310 --> 00:36:47.370
And so we have,
430
00:36:47.910 --> 00:36:51.105
definitely not as many features as the BTC pay server guys have.
431
00:36:52.145 --> 00:36:57.845
So we do have donation pages, and you can embed like a like a donation button on your website.
432
00:36:59.080 --> 00:37:05.420
We also have a payment gateway for WooCommerce, so you can use it for sort of, merchant payments.
433
00:37:07.205 --> 00:37:11.305
And you can also use it for sort of more general applications. So it does have this,
434
00:37:12.325 --> 00:37:16.990
sort of payment API in the background. You could use it for a variety of other,
435
00:37:17.450 --> 00:37:17.950
Bitcoin,
436
00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:30.494
payment things. For example, I've seen it used as actually as a CAPTCHA. So a lightning CAPTCHA. So every time you wanna leave a comment on a website, you might have to pay, like, a 15 sat lightning invoice,
437
00:37:30.954 --> 00:37:37.440
and then sat sale will confirm that that that invoice has been paid, and then you're allowed to, post that comment,
438
00:37:38.140 --> 00:37:39.040
on that website.
439
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:39.920
So
440
00:37:40.700 --> 00:37:41.440
so SatSale,
441
00:37:42.220 --> 00:37:42.880
you can
442
00:37:43.925 --> 00:37:46.725
the the there's sort of 2 ways to to use it at the moment.
443
00:37:48.005 --> 00:37:48.744
The first
444
00:37:49.205 --> 00:37:53.310
is you can download it in your Umbrel app store. So if you're running Umbrel,
445
00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:57.390
Bitcoin node on a Raspberry Pi, you can find that sale,
446
00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:06.015
in that app store. But the one of the problems with that is that, yes, it's not on a VPS. It'll be at your home IP, and that's that's not really,
447
00:38:06.395 --> 00:38:06.895
ideal,
448
00:38:07.675 --> 00:38:09.855
for the reasons we just discussed earlier.
449
00:38:10.710 --> 00:38:12.810
So the the way I recommend that people
450
00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:22.815
set up sat sale at the moment is to yeah. You you like BTC pay, you might rent a VPS for, say, 2, 3, $4 a month.
451
00:38:23.995 --> 00:38:25.775
And what you do is you would,
452
00:38:26.750 --> 00:38:29.010
point that VPS to to look,
453
00:38:30.110 --> 00:38:33.650
at your Bitcoin nodes. You might have a Raspberry Pi at home,
454
00:38:34.215 --> 00:38:37.595
and you're renting this VPS somewhere in another country or wherever,
455
00:38:38.215 --> 00:38:38.715
and,
456
00:38:39.495 --> 00:38:41.595
you install sat sale on the VPS,
457
00:38:43.230 --> 00:38:44.130
and you give,
458
00:38:45.230 --> 00:38:45.730
SatSale
459
00:38:46.190 --> 00:38:50.609
sort of the your your home IP address and and your Bitcoin,
460
00:38:51.309 --> 00:38:52.369
it's called RPC
461
00:38:53.045 --> 00:38:53.545
authentication,
462
00:38:55.045 --> 00:38:57.704
username and password or or cookie file.
463
00:38:59.444 --> 00:39:03.690
And and then when you run SatSale, it's like a a web server that,
464
00:39:04.790 --> 00:39:05.930
you can you can
465
00:39:06.470 --> 00:39:09.050
initiate donations through. And so when you go to
466
00:39:09.590 --> 00:39:10.570
make a new donation,
467
00:39:11.745 --> 00:39:12.245
Satsale
468
00:39:13.105 --> 00:39:16.565
will reach out to your Bitcoin node at home. So it'll it'll
469
00:39:16.945 --> 00:39:19.525
fetch a new address, and it will display that,
470
00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:22.430
on the web server, the Satcell web server,
471
00:39:22.810 --> 00:39:26.430
and it will continuously monitor that address to check that a payment,
472
00:39:27.025 --> 00:39:27.925
has been made.
473
00:39:30.465 --> 00:39:32.165
Is there anything else I missed there?
474
00:39:32.865 --> 00:39:36.480
So, yeah, SatSale is sort of like a it's a lot more smaller.
475
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:40.000
Definitely nowhere near as many features as BTCPay.
476
00:39:41.580 --> 00:39:46.255
For example, BTCPay has pay joins, which I think is really, really, really awesome.
477
00:39:46.635 --> 00:39:48.015
Something I definitely wanna
478
00:39:48.474 --> 00:39:49.775
look into at some point.
479
00:39:50.795 --> 00:39:52.655
But I like to think it's quite
480
00:39:53.160 --> 00:39:55.020
modular and extendable and
481
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.579
customizable for for whatever you might need. So for example,
482
00:40:00.680 --> 00:40:01.180
the
483
00:40:02.895 --> 00:40:07.075
the the payment page, like, the donation button itself is all very
484
00:40:07.375 --> 00:40:08.275
very very,
485
00:40:08.655 --> 00:40:09.155
basic,
486
00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:15.760
HTML and sort of CSS. It's very it doesn't look great. I'll admit that.
487
00:40:16.780 --> 00:40:18.405
But it means it's,
488
00:40:18.885 --> 00:40:25.865
modifiable and and you can customize it. So you could very easily, like, replace the logos with, say, your company business logo, and
489
00:40:27.010 --> 00:40:31.670
you could you could change it all around quite easily to to customize it for whatever purpose you have.
490
00:40:33.410 --> 00:40:34.470
That's awesome. So
491
00:40:35.215 --> 00:40:36.275
right now, SatSale
492
00:40:36.655 --> 00:40:37.155
has,
493
00:40:38.055 --> 00:40:42.595
you know, has a store option. It has, like, a donation option, like, an HTML snippet option.
494
00:40:43.140 --> 00:40:48.579
And I believe you're also on on WooCommerce as well. Is that is that correct? Yeah. Just WooCommerce at the moment,
495
00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:50.905
for for the ecommerce sites.
496
00:40:51.705 --> 00:40:53.165
We don't have a
497
00:40:54.025 --> 00:40:54.765
a crowdfunding
498
00:40:55.465 --> 00:41:02.079
page just yet. So we don't have a page that sort of adds up the sum of all the donations and displays,
499
00:41:02.859 --> 00:41:06.880
like a goal or anything like that, but it's definitely something I'm I'm pretty keen in building.
500
00:41:10.685 --> 00:41:12.385
Another thing I noticed about,
501
00:41:12.845 --> 00:41:14.545
Satsale is that
502
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:19.819
is that is that you have, BIP 47 support.
503
00:41:21.160 --> 00:41:22.700
What are your thoughts on that,
504
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.099
and how do you see it playing into
505
00:41:27.085 --> 00:41:28.385
the offering at Satsail?
506
00:41:29.805 --> 00:41:32.944
That's a really interesting question. It'd be very topical of late.
507
00:41:34.770 --> 00:41:35.990
So bit 47
508
00:41:36.370 --> 00:41:38.230
are these, for those who don't know, they're,
509
00:41:39.250 --> 00:41:40.870
reusable payment codes.
510
00:41:41.330 --> 00:41:42.070
So, essentially,
511
00:41:43.255 --> 00:41:45.994
everything we said it before about not reusing addresses,
512
00:41:47.015 --> 00:41:52.474
you could actually sort of get away with with bit 40 seven. So you can have a a single sort of payment code
513
00:41:52.810 --> 00:41:54.030
or QR code,
514
00:41:54.570 --> 00:41:55.070
and
515
00:41:55.450 --> 00:41:58.350
every individual user who scans that,
516
00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:00.910
payment code, it sets up
517
00:42:02.845 --> 00:42:05.105
sort of like a like a,
518
00:42:06.685 --> 00:42:07.505
like a private
519
00:42:08.525 --> 00:42:09.505
address channel.
520
00:42:10.525 --> 00:42:11.025
So
521
00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:13.430
you and the recipient
522
00:42:14.289 --> 00:42:16.150
are both able to produce addresses,
523
00:42:18.369 --> 00:42:23.954
that no one else is able to to derive. Only you as the sender and the recipient
524
00:42:24.494 --> 00:42:25.234
of those
525
00:42:25.615 --> 00:42:26.654
donations are able to,
526
00:42:28.140 --> 00:42:30.640
derive these addresses from the payment code.
527
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:33.579
And so for that sale,
528
00:42:34.675 --> 00:42:39.575
on the main donation screen at the moment, you can you can we've got a little script that can inject
529
00:42:39.875 --> 00:42:40.375
your
530
00:42:40.915 --> 00:42:46.530
your pay name. So in the config file, you can just type in, you know, my pay name is royal cell 593.
531
00:42:47.870 --> 00:42:49.810
Satsale will go and grab your
532
00:42:50.110 --> 00:42:50.610
your
533
00:42:51.125 --> 00:42:53.625
bit 47 payment code from paynim.is,
534
00:42:54.565 --> 00:42:55.385
and it will,
535
00:42:55.845 --> 00:42:59.305
display that that QR code and as well as a link to your paynim,
536
00:43:00.005 --> 00:43:02.490
on the on on the front donation page.
537
00:43:03.430 --> 00:43:06.010
And that's, that's sort of an alternative way of,
538
00:43:06.870 --> 00:43:08.010
donating to someone.
539
00:43:08.905 --> 00:43:10.045
It doesn't actually
540
00:43:11.545 --> 00:43:15.405
there's no way at the moment for SatSale to confirm that you've made a donation
541
00:43:16.105 --> 00:43:18.500
using a bit 47 payment code,
542
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.500
because those payments are very private. Because that's the point. Recipient.
543
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:23.380
Exactly.
544
00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:24.580
So,
545
00:43:25.135 --> 00:43:34.740
first of all, we have someone in the chat saying that they can't find Satsale, and they spelled it like the boat sail. It's spelled it's spelled like, you know, like a fire sail. So satsale.org.
546
00:43:36.560 --> 00:43:38.260
If you're listening via the podcast,
547
00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:41.380
and you and you want more information, that's where you go.
548
00:43:42.535 --> 00:43:45.515
So, I mean, I thought this was interesting because to me,
549
00:43:47.175 --> 00:43:48.295
so first of all, I
550
00:43:49.110 --> 00:43:49.770
BIP 47,
551
00:43:51.110 --> 00:43:52.250
is fucking awesome.
552
00:43:52.950 --> 00:43:53.770
And, unfortunately,
553
00:43:54.230 --> 00:43:55.370
even though it was proposed,
554
00:43:56.375 --> 00:43:58.715
maybe 5 years ago, 6 years ago,
555
00:43:59.015 --> 00:44:02.075
it's a couple developers, a couple core developers
556
00:44:02.615 --> 00:44:07.950
decided that it was a little bit spammy on chain. They considered it spam because there's a notification transaction,
557
00:44:08.809 --> 00:44:09.289
and,
558
00:44:10.170 --> 00:44:13.630
they universally discouraged it for implementation. So the only,
559
00:44:14.315 --> 00:44:17.615
2 wallets that currently support it are Samurais and Sparrow,
560
00:44:18.075 --> 00:44:21.055
and Samurais the only one that supports sending to it.
561
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:23.980
Samurai also has a feature called
562
00:44:24.520 --> 00:44:26.380
Pay NIMs, where they take
563
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:29.980
your payment code. So your payment code is just locally generated
564
00:44:32.145 --> 00:44:35.205
text string. It it can it looks like a Bitcoin address.
565
00:44:35.585 --> 00:44:38.785
You know, it doesn't start with b c one. It starts with,
566
00:44:39.185 --> 00:44:40.165
I believe, PM,
567
00:44:41.089 --> 00:44:44.070
but it looks like a Bitcoin address. It's just letters and numbers.
568
00:44:44.450 --> 00:44:47.510
It's locally generated. It doesn't rely on a centralized server.
569
00:44:48.095 --> 00:44:50.275
Now they have this website, paynim.is,
570
00:44:51.615 --> 00:44:54.115
that links a human readable name
571
00:44:54.494 --> 00:44:55.875
to that payment code.
572
00:44:57.230 --> 00:45:18.520
That is a trusted directory of payment codes. So if you're going and fetching a payment code from there, you're putting trust in the samurai team that they're not putting a incorrect payment code. They're they're not putting in their own payment code, or they're not getting man in the middle of them putting in a different payment code. So the ideal situation is you're hosting that payment code in many different places,
573
00:45:19.140 --> 00:45:24.375
so people can verify it. And one of the cool aspects of BIP 47 is once you have that payment code,
574
00:45:25.395 --> 00:45:27.655
you never need to fetch it again. You can generate
575
00:45:28.035 --> 00:45:36.079
new addresses that only you and the receiver know every time you wanna pay them, and you never have to go back to it. Similar to, like, if you have someone's PGP key,
576
00:45:36.619 --> 00:45:40.160
you can just hold on to that PGP key and just constantly use it for encrypting.
577
00:45:40.484 --> 00:45:41.704
Now I brought up PGP
578
00:45:42.165 --> 00:45:48.425
can be very useful in a BIP 47 environment because if someone knows your PGP key, you can sign
579
00:45:48.849 --> 00:46:00.775
a bit 47 payment code with your PGP key so they can verify it that way as well. Now PGP has its own set of adoption issues. Unfortunately, a lot of BitCorners don't use it. You can find my p g p key at sidildispatch.com/pgp.
580
00:46:02.115 --> 00:46:06.295
I would like to see more people use that. But, anyway, my question to you, Nick,
581
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.540
is, to me, one of the cool parts of BIP 47
582
00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:10.900
is that
583
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:16.615
I don't need to run something on a VPS. I don't have to run SatSale on a VPS. I don't have to run BTCPay
584
00:46:16.915 --> 00:46:19.895
on a VPS. I don't have to pay a server provider
585
00:46:20.355 --> 00:46:24.070
or have uptime. All I need to do is post this payment string somewhere,
586
00:46:24.470 --> 00:46:26.730
and someone can pay me from their wallet.
587
00:46:28.150 --> 00:46:30.490
Do you not see it as almost, like, an alternative
588
00:46:30.790 --> 00:46:37.975
to something like SatSale rather than having like, it's interesting to me that you have it integrated into something like SatSale. Because if you already have
589
00:46:38.275 --> 00:46:40.215
if you already have the SatSale instance,
590
00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:45.309
Right? It's like Why would you? Why would you? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point.
591
00:46:46.250 --> 00:46:48.829
I I like giving people the option, so I'll probably
592
00:46:49.305 --> 00:46:50.125
add some
593
00:46:50.745 --> 00:46:51.245
other
594
00:46:51.865 --> 00:46:53.565
payment methods like bolt 12,
595
00:46:55.145 --> 00:46:56.285
for for lightning,
596
00:46:56.905 --> 00:46:57.405
reusable
597
00:46:58.079 --> 00:46:58.900
payment codes.
598
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:05.859
Yeah. It's it's sort of it's not it's like so you can't SatSale itself can't actually
599
00:47:06.345 --> 00:47:07.085
monitor payments
600
00:47:07.385 --> 00:47:11.484
that have been made to that that bit 47 payment code like you said.
601
00:47:11.785 --> 00:47:12.285
So,
602
00:47:13.530 --> 00:47:16.270
you wouldn't be able to, like, use bit 47
603
00:47:17.210 --> 00:47:21.550
if you were doing things like a merchant checkout. Or you could, but
604
00:47:22.025 --> 00:47:24.025
not not just yet, at least with how,
605
00:47:24.585 --> 00:47:26.684
no platforms exist for that just yet.
606
00:47:27.464 --> 00:47:27.964
Because
607
00:47:28.984 --> 00:47:30.525
Satsale doesn't know,
608
00:47:31.930 --> 00:47:32.670
the secret,
609
00:47:33.530 --> 00:47:37.390
for to or it doesn't know which addresses to look to look for,
610
00:47:38.250 --> 00:47:41.390
and and check whether a payment's been made to that address.
611
00:47:43.835 --> 00:47:46.095
So so, yeah, it is it is quite different,
612
00:47:46.555 --> 00:47:49.615
and it and I I really like it. It is it's a really useful
613
00:47:50.050 --> 00:47:53.349
sort of solution to this problem is you wanna receive money
614
00:47:53.810 --> 00:47:59.670
and but you don't wanna have to host a a web server that spits out a new address every time.
615
00:48:00.245 --> 00:48:03.225
So BIPs 47 is a really cool solution for,
616
00:48:03.765 --> 00:48:12.090
just being able to paste something in your bio or at the bottom of your website, and people can just reuse it over and over, and you don't have to worry about any privacy issues.
617
00:48:12.550 --> 00:48:14.970
So, I mean, I'm gonna do the thing where,
618
00:48:15.525 --> 00:48:18.745
I ask the question, and then I answer the question that I asked.
619
00:48:19.845 --> 00:48:22.725
It's to me to me, the reason you have,
620
00:48:23.630 --> 00:48:26.530
the ability to display your bit 47 payment code
621
00:48:26.830 --> 00:48:28.530
directly in SatSale interface
622
00:48:29.070 --> 00:48:31.730
is because at the end of the day, it's good to give Bitcorders
623
00:48:32.035 --> 00:48:38.694
options. More options are better. And as someone you know, Citi dispatch relies on donations, and right now, I'm using BTCPay.
624
00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:40.430
So if you go to sidlaldispatch.com/contribute,
625
00:48:42.170 --> 00:48:44.990
you can donate through BTCPay. But because I can't
626
00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:56.045
show that payment code directly into the flow, the payment code is right underneath it. Right? So it's nice Mhmm. If someone's accepting donations that, you know, you go to this one page and just, like, nice, pretty,
627
00:48:56.520 --> 00:49:01.020
everything is that you want displayed there for all the different options that people can pay.
628
00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:04.380
And then the big advantage of of something like BTCPay
629
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:05.500
or
630
00:49:07.474 --> 00:49:11.895
SATSale over just a static BIP 47 code is that you can receive,
631
00:49:13.234 --> 00:49:14.694
Lightning as well.
632
00:49:15.270 --> 00:49:20.090
Mhmm. And a lot of people like paying with Lightning. Lightning does give the sender some additional privacy benefits.
633
00:49:20.950 --> 00:49:24.490
It's not great for receiver privacy, but it's pretty good for sender privacy.
634
00:49:26.214 --> 00:49:34.890
Yeah. And then at this point, like, all the options explained. So, like, if I'm going through and I'm about to donate to you and and I see the option that is, like, the most, you know, private or,
635
00:49:35.349 --> 00:49:45.115
the most private option donate to you, like, you could be a controversial cause, and, you know, I I really don't want that linking back to me. So I'm gonna, you know, pick which one is is the best for my privacy.
636
00:49:45.575 --> 00:49:50.635
And I I think I think it goes along. Give the sender options. Yeah. Give the sender options. You know, give the Bitcoiners,
637
00:49:50.935 --> 00:49:56.750
you know, the options for the most private. So, you know, I would use something like paying them or or lightning as a sender,
638
00:49:57.290 --> 00:49:59.070
in those scenarios where I'm donating.
639
00:50:01.775 --> 00:50:05.155
Pavel, you have any opinion on on BIP 47?
640
00:50:07.215 --> 00:50:10.620
I have a lots of thoughts as you guys were talking.
641
00:50:11.720 --> 00:50:12.220
So
642
00:50:12.600 --> 00:50:13.820
I think, you know,
643
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:16.520
it all comes down to,
644
00:50:17.160 --> 00:50:23.155
why is this sit why are we in this situation that for a simple donation, you need to run a server.
645
00:50:24.255 --> 00:50:31.760
It's not on BTC based server. It's not on Satsail to, you know what what we are trying to do is just, you know, find,
646
00:50:32.220 --> 00:50:33.920
our way to offer people
647
00:50:34.974 --> 00:50:40.994
a a way to donate in a way that it doesn't infringe their privacy. So we're, in a way, hacking around the protocol
648
00:50:41.590 --> 00:50:45.050
in order for people to be able to accept Bitcoin, but that
649
00:50:45.430 --> 00:50:48.810
that shouldn't be the case. Like, payment processors like BTCPay
650
00:50:49.110 --> 00:50:51.130
and Setsail should be there to allow
651
00:50:51.575 --> 00:50:54.234
merchants and people wanting to manage invoices
652
00:50:54.695 --> 00:50:56.635
and people wanting to connect to the
653
00:50:56.935 --> 00:50:57.435
WooCommerce,
654
00:50:57.815 --> 00:50:59.835
Magento. I don't know. Whatever,
655
00:51:00.690 --> 00:51:03.910
CMS or content management system they have out there.
656
00:51:04.930 --> 00:51:06.230
Bitcoin as a protocol
657
00:51:06.930 --> 00:51:09.270
needs to evolve beyond, you know,
658
00:51:09.855 --> 00:51:16.494
people reusing address. We need to have these unique identifiers that, protect people privacy in my way. And I think,
659
00:51:17.420 --> 00:51:18.880
what Samura has done is
660
00:51:19.180 --> 00:51:29.975
been there for quite a while, and it's, at least encouraging to see people adopting it. I personally haven't looked, into protocol, and I don't see how we can implement it into BTC based server.
661
00:51:30.275 --> 00:51:33.975
But I envision the future where we could be able to pay,
662
00:51:34.660 --> 00:51:44.815
to one another without thinking about invoices, addresses, or whatnot. I'm just Pablonex sending to Matt, and it will payment will be made. I enter Matt
663
00:51:45.275 --> 00:51:47.775
at unique identifier or whatever similar,
664
00:51:48.715 --> 00:51:49.695
in which way,
665
00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:50.760
bolt,
666
00:51:51.060 --> 00:51:53.880
12 or lightning addresses or URL work.
667
00:51:54.420 --> 00:52:03.795
That's the future I want to see. I want to see future where you as a user can just install a wallet and accept a damn donation. You don't you don't have to run this complex infrastructure,
668
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:11.859
But, yeah, we are still not there, but one day, I I believe we will be. For now, these are your options. You know?
669
00:52:13.255 --> 00:52:14.475
Bitcoin will evolve.
670
00:52:15.175 --> 00:52:17.035
Lots of work is being done
671
00:52:17.735 --> 00:52:18.375
on these,
672
00:52:18.695 --> 00:52:23.810
you know, unique identifiers I like to call them. I'm not sure if it's even technically correct, but
673
00:52:24.190 --> 00:52:25.090
yeah. So,
674
00:52:25.390 --> 00:52:28.610
what we are doing is trying to hack around for now.
675
00:52:28.985 --> 00:52:31.065
BTC based server has always been a project,
676
00:52:31.465 --> 00:52:34.445
implementing others people idea, trying to, you know,
677
00:52:34.905 --> 00:52:42.050
give other projects and protocols a way to evolve and find the user base. So that's why we do all these things. But at the end of the day,
678
00:52:42.670 --> 00:52:53.605
when we think about it, it shouldn't really be that hard. Like, people should just be able to put a damn QR code in the website or something very unique, and people should be able to send them money. Like,
679
00:52:53.905 --> 00:52:56.085
if you're for example, I don't know, Wikipedia
680
00:52:56.385 --> 00:53:07.734
or, I don't know, Tor project, and you want to have invoices. You have an accountant willing to, you know, you need accounting. You need to maybe give prizes to people donating. Of course, you need a payment server,
681
00:53:08.194 --> 00:53:19.830
to handle all these complexities for you. But if you're just, I don't know, guitar player wanting to get donations for for whatever, like, it really should be just your wallet. So giving you,
682
00:53:20.690 --> 00:53:34.900
unique way to to accept Bitcoin without you having to think around with servers and whatnot. I'm not sure if you guys agree, but, I really wish that the future. So I mean, I I think I mean, look, a perfect example of the power of something like BIP 47
683
00:53:35.839 --> 00:53:40.500
is well, first of all, I just wanted to add that if you are using the crowdfunding feature of BTCPay,
684
00:53:41.085 --> 00:53:48.605
you guys don't actually even need to do any development on your side. Someone can just put their payment code in, like, that description field of, the crowdfund,
685
00:53:49.500 --> 00:53:52.800
if they want to. But if you wanna talk about, like, the power of something like BIP 47,
686
00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:57.760
like, my Twitter banner just has my BIP 47 QR code. It's just fixed there.
687
00:53:58.095 --> 00:54:05.075
I don't use any other social media, but you could imagine you could put that in your your Facebook banner or your LinkedIn profile picture or whatever
688
00:54:05.455 --> 00:54:13.550
fucking social media you use because it's just a static QR code that can always stay there without address you use. It's massively powerful in that regard. Right?
689
00:54:15.965 --> 00:54:17.745
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really is.
690
00:54:20.765 --> 00:54:22.865
So at the moment, the biggest criticism
691
00:54:23.165 --> 00:54:24.465
of bit bit 47,
692
00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:30.760
is that when you wanna make a payment to someone for the first time using their payment code,
693
00:54:31.220 --> 00:54:34.875
you have as you said, Matt, you have to make that notification transaction.
694
00:54:36.215 --> 00:54:37.835
So this notification transaction,
695
00:54:39.175 --> 00:54:40.395
it it's
696
00:54:40.710 --> 00:54:42.870
it lets the recipient know that,
697
00:54:43.270 --> 00:54:44.550
they should start looking
698
00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:47.290
they should start scanning these sort of addresses
699
00:54:47.990 --> 00:54:49.610
and check for incoming payments.
700
00:54:49.995 --> 00:54:50.495
And
701
00:54:53.115 --> 00:54:56.575
and so there's some criticism of of that is that it requires
702
00:54:57.195 --> 00:54:57.695
more
703
00:54:58.470 --> 00:54:58.970
transactions
704
00:54:59.349 --> 00:54:59.849
to
705
00:55:00.150 --> 00:55:02.890
to sort of make one payment. You're sort of making 2 transactions
706
00:55:03.190 --> 00:55:04.170
for 1 payment.
707
00:55:05.645 --> 00:55:08.845
But but I I don't I don't think that should sort of get in the way of,
708
00:55:09.325 --> 00:55:11.985
what is really a a really strong privacy tool.
709
00:55:13.680 --> 00:55:17.700
And, I mean, the reason just to add here, like, so you could do something
710
00:55:18.080 --> 00:55:22.099
like BIP 47. You could do these payment codes without the notification transaction.
711
00:55:23.265 --> 00:55:28.325
But then your your your base this is my, you know, basic understanding of it.
712
00:55:28.705 --> 00:55:33.430
You're doing that communication out of band, so you're you'd have to be doing that off chain.
713
00:55:33.730 --> 00:55:39.830
Now the cool part about the notification transaction you know, Nick just went through the negative, which is you're making additional
714
00:55:40.345 --> 00:55:49.805
Bitcoin transaction, and that's the part that was considered spam. The cool part means that you don't have to do any additional backup. If you just have your seed phrase, your secret words,
715
00:55:50.650 --> 00:56:00.155
it can recover your payment code. It can recover all of your different generated addresses with all the different people that, you've you made transactions with before, all from that single
716
00:56:00.795 --> 00:56:06.095
seed. If you do it out of band, then all of a sudden, you need to actually keep, like, a digital backup
717
00:56:06.795 --> 00:56:08.690
that ideally is encrypted,
718
00:56:09.070 --> 00:56:14.930
that can have, you know, bit rot, and, like, the the computer drives can fail. It it's it's way more difficult
719
00:56:15.315 --> 00:56:17.655
to back up a digital file than it is,
720
00:56:18.355 --> 00:56:24.935
you know, to put a bunch of words on a and it should into steel and have it being waterproof and fireproof and whatnot. Right?
721
00:56:26.869 --> 00:56:28.890
Yeah. That's a it's a really good point.
722
00:56:29.750 --> 00:56:32.329
And, actually, I I saw the other day that
723
00:56:32.655 --> 00:56:33.795
there is a proposal,
724
00:56:34.735 --> 00:56:35.235
for
725
00:56:35.615 --> 00:56:36.835
something very similar
726
00:56:37.135 --> 00:56:41.075
to bit 47. It's it's called efficient reusable taproot addresses.
727
00:56:42.540 --> 00:56:44.400
But, actually, I think it suffers
728
00:56:45.180 --> 00:56:49.760
from that point you just mentioned that because there isn't a notification transaction,
729
00:56:50.425 --> 00:56:53.778
it makes it a bit harder to,
730
00:56:54.585 --> 00:57:01.140
sort of, yeah, restore from just a seed. I think I think something else has to be saved, at least that's my understanding of it.
731
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:08.415
Before we get to those, I just wanna jump in real quick. I think, Pavel, you have a hard stop in, like, 2 minutes. Correct?
732
00:57:09.755 --> 00:57:11.615
No. I'm having so much time,
733
00:57:12.050 --> 00:57:14.710
so much fun with you guys, and I'm drinking. So,
734
00:57:15.490 --> 00:57:27.815
I delayed all my obligations just for UMASS, so I'll be here until the end. I love to hear it. I like to think the freaks are a big part of it too. Okay. So let's talk about this. The I, like, kind of looked into it.
735
00:57:28.670 --> 00:57:31.330
It looks like a normal Taproot Bitcoin address,
736
00:57:32.670 --> 00:57:35.090
and has similar properties. It so
737
00:57:35.905 --> 00:57:38.724
it it doesn't have a notification transaction.
738
00:57:39.744 --> 00:57:43.025
My my my biggest confusion there is how does someone know
739
00:57:44.140 --> 00:57:46.800
like, if so if I post my payment code on Twitter
740
00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:50.550
Yeah. You know it's a payment code, and you know it's not,
741
00:57:51.495 --> 00:57:59.115
a fixed address to reuse. If I post a Taproot address, and even if on the receiver side I'm set up to take reusable payments out of it,
742
00:57:59.620 --> 00:58:09.934
I'm gonna expect that the majority of people are just not gonna realize and just send to this fixed, reused address anyway. Right? That's my biggest concern, and that's not even a technical concern. It's just a
743
00:58:11.035 --> 00:58:12.655
a user flow concern. Right?
744
00:58:16.520 --> 00:58:19.640
Yeah. I'm I'm not too sure of the details of,
745
00:58:20.200 --> 00:58:22.620
these reusable Taproot addresses, but,
746
00:58:23.240 --> 00:58:26.345
yeah, that that makes sense to me. That that it's, that
747
00:58:27.705 --> 00:58:29.165
yeah. How do you know
748
00:58:31.945 --> 00:58:32.445
yeah.
749
00:58:33.385 --> 00:58:35.145
I don't know quite how how the
750
00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:40.160
like, if you don't have the notification transaction, how does your wallet know
751
00:58:40.620 --> 00:58:41.600
that it's expecting
752
00:58:41.900 --> 00:58:43.120
to receive a transaction?
753
00:58:43.815 --> 00:58:45.195
Yeah. How do you know the receiver's
754
00:58:45.575 --> 00:58:50.555
expecting a reusable address? How do you know the sender is even gonna realize that it's a reusable address
755
00:58:51.015 --> 00:58:53.180
on both sides? It's kind of odd there.
756
00:58:54.380 --> 00:58:54.880
Maybe
757
00:58:55.180 --> 00:58:57.280
maybe it still uses, like, a similar
758
00:58:57.980 --> 00:58:59.200
payment code.
759
00:59:01.075 --> 00:59:08.855
I'm I'm just talking on top of my head here. I don't I don't actually know, but maybe it still has, like, a payment code sort of format. But instead of using
760
00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:13.000
BC 1 addresses, it uses
761
00:59:13.300 --> 00:59:16.599
Taproot addresses with some slightly different cryptography,
762
00:59:17.705 --> 00:59:20.605
so that it doesn't need a notification transaction.
763
00:59:21.065 --> 00:59:22.205
At least that proposal,
764
00:59:22.585 --> 00:59:30.210
like, one of the cool parts that was highlighted about it was that it looks like a regular Taproot address. It was, like, a key aspect of that specific proposal.
765
00:59:30.910 --> 00:59:37.785
Now, I mean, obviously, it's just a proposal. It's very early days. Maybe there are cool things that can happen with Taproot in that regard.
766
00:59:38.725 --> 00:59:42.185
But I think in the meantime, there's obviously a critical need
767
00:59:43.270 --> 00:59:45.850
for some kind of reusable payment code.
768
00:59:46.550 --> 00:59:48.970
BIP 47 seems to fit the bill.
769
00:59:49.565 --> 00:59:55.345
If the concern is that on chain fees are, you know, gonna be increasing because people are using BIP 47,
770
00:59:55.725 --> 00:59:57.585
I would point them to the live view
771
00:59:58.010 --> 00:59:58.750
of mempool.space
772
00:59:59.290 --> 01:00:04.190
right now where one separate byte confirms right away. So I think, you know, we implement that now.
773
01:00:04.650 --> 01:00:06.430
And, you know, if fees go up
774
01:00:06.755 --> 01:00:07.255
ever,
775
01:00:07.714 --> 01:00:10.135
then we can at that point, we can,
776
01:00:10.515 --> 01:00:14.775
you know, start to phase them out and try and be more efficient on chain. But right now, I mean,
777
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:21.560
they're just mining empty blocks, and you can just do one separate bite. Right? Yeah. If anything, you can go ahead and already set up that notification
778
01:00:21.860 --> 01:00:30.365
transaction with a person you think you may be paying in the future. And then whenever you need to pay them, you know, maybe there's a big congestion. You you already sent that notification transaction
779
01:00:30.740 --> 01:00:34.119
when it was once sat, so then you can just keep making payments to them afterwards.
780
01:00:34.580 --> 01:00:39.000
Yeah. And, like, lightning, like, it it just seems like a double standard because, like, on lightning,
781
01:00:39.345 --> 01:00:42.165
I gotta open and close channels all the fucking time.
782
01:00:42.785 --> 01:00:45.765
Yeah. And, like, Lightning is one big batch transaction,
783
01:00:46.065 --> 01:00:46.885
which is cool,
784
01:00:47.420 --> 01:00:49.680
and it's like an automated way of doing that.
785
01:00:50.060 --> 01:00:52.460
But, with BIP 47, like, I already have
786
01:00:54.434 --> 01:01:00.934
there's already, like, a 100 people linked with my payment code. They've already linked. Now they don't have to link again unless they create a new wallet.
787
01:01:02.730 --> 01:01:03.230
Exactly.
788
01:01:03.610 --> 01:01:07.230
Pavel, do you have you looked into this reusable Taproot addresses at all?
789
01:01:08.170 --> 01:01:10.055
No. I haven't, unfortunately,
790
01:01:10.355 --> 01:01:15.415
but I've added it to my list of reading things of Bitcoin protocol.
791
01:01:17.270 --> 01:01:20.970
So, yeah, I will I I'm reading as you guys speak. It seems
792
01:01:21.350 --> 01:01:25.930
very interesting, but, yeah, I have to, you know, have some time to tinker about
793
01:01:26.934 --> 01:01:30.555
potential downsides of it. The ever growing to do list.
794
01:01:31.255 --> 01:01:31.755
Yeah.
795
01:01:32.775 --> 01:01:33.275
So
796
01:01:33.870 --> 01:01:35.970
so first of all, on the BIP 47 front,
797
01:01:36.270 --> 01:01:42.370
it seems like this whole, you know, Canadian trucker stuff has really prioritized it for a lot of people.
798
01:01:43.075 --> 01:01:43.974
I know BDK
799
01:01:44.275 --> 01:01:44.775
is
800
01:01:46.035 --> 01:01:46.535
considering
801
01:01:47.075 --> 01:01:51.815
merging it, which is intended to be a project that is used as a back end for other
802
01:01:52.770 --> 01:01:53.270
wallets,
803
01:01:53.570 --> 01:01:55.910
for all assortment of wallets. And then BlueWallet,
804
01:01:56.930 --> 01:02:03.015
which is available both iOS and Android, there's an outstanding bounty right now. The last I checked was 12,000,000 sats,
805
01:02:03.635 --> 01:02:12.450
to integrate it into BlueWallet, which I think would be massive. Because right now, like, forget the notification transaction. The biggest issue with BIP 47 is someone has to have an Android phone,
806
01:02:13.070 --> 01:02:18.985
a donator has to have an Android phone, and they have to specifically have a samurai wallet installed. Right? And, like, when you're talking about donations,
807
01:02:19.525 --> 01:02:24.025
you wanna try and reduce the friction of the people who are donating as much as possible,
808
01:02:24.610 --> 01:02:29.030
and that is obviously the biggest point of friction. So, hopefully, we see, you know, over
809
01:02:29.410 --> 01:02:33.190
the next couple of months, you know, start to see while it's implemented,
810
01:02:34.065 --> 01:02:38.405
besides samurai and ideally cross platform, you know, desktop and iPhone.
811
01:02:40.145 --> 01:02:42.945
Yeah. One of the one of the things though on that is still,
812
01:02:44.049 --> 01:02:49.910
you know, if if you have a bunch of donors and, you know, they're all let's say they are all using PayNex. Like, eventually,
813
01:02:50.369 --> 01:02:51.349
you know, consolidation
814
01:02:51.650 --> 01:02:55.145
may end up happening and you'll and specific donors will be linked,
815
01:02:55.765 --> 01:02:58.665
to each other. You may not get all the donate donators,
816
01:02:59.445 --> 01:03:04.010
but you still, like, probably would want to, you know, after you, you know, maybe crowdfund,
817
01:03:05.109 --> 01:03:06.490
or, you know, wanna
818
01:03:06.869 --> 01:03:13.595
start using your donations, like, still coinjoin afterwards, you know, after the fact just so you don't, don't, unintentionally
819
01:03:13.975 --> 01:03:16.955
leak link. Like you said, you you you have 21.5,
820
01:03:18.215 --> 01:03:19.355
or sorry, 2.5,
821
01:03:20.790 --> 01:03:21.290
Bitcoin,
822
01:03:21.670 --> 01:03:22.170
UTXOs
823
01:03:22.470 --> 01:03:35.425
and from 2 different donors, and then you spend 1 Bitcoin. And then all of a sudden, you kind of blink those 2. You have linked them on your end. You have linked those 2 donate donators as, like, 2 individuals that have both donated at that point.
824
01:03:36.010 --> 01:03:37.470
You don't exactly know,
825
01:03:38.090 --> 01:03:38.750
you know,
826
01:03:39.450 --> 01:03:43.950
maybe, you know, you you can say that they don't exactly know that it was,
827
01:03:44.295 --> 01:03:50.555
you know, for a specific cause, but, eventually, you know, there's Well, you know, at the very least, they paid the same person or something.
828
01:03:51.335 --> 01:03:56.110
So let's maybe this is a good time to just whether it's paid NIMS or whether it's
829
01:03:56.490 --> 01:03:56.990
BTCPay
830
01:03:57.290 --> 01:03:58.030
or SatSale
831
01:03:58.490 --> 01:03:59.310
or TaliCoin,
832
01:04:00.285 --> 01:04:02.305
you you you're not reusing addresses.
833
01:04:02.684 --> 01:04:04.785
You're receiving all these on chain funds.
834
01:04:05.244 --> 01:04:06.944
How does someone who's crowdfunding,
835
01:04:07.244 --> 01:04:10.810
who's controlling those funds that are received, how should they go about
836
01:04:11.270 --> 01:04:12.170
thinking about
837
01:04:12.470 --> 01:04:13.290
their privacy
838
01:04:13.830 --> 01:04:14.730
and, their
839
01:04:15.030 --> 01:04:15.770
their privacy,
840
01:04:17.395 --> 01:04:20.535
going forward? Like, how do they manage those funds? How should they think about it?
841
01:04:23.635 --> 01:04:28.680
Yeah. I think I think, Tony raised a really good point that you should you should probably,
842
01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:32.280
do some coin join after you've received the donations.
843
01:04:33.435 --> 01:04:39.855
So that that once you do a coin join where you there's a whole bunch of inputs and a whole bunch of identical looking outputs,
844
01:04:40.810 --> 01:04:46.110
it breaks these really deterministic, really easy to follow links in the Bitcoin blockchain.
845
01:04:46.970 --> 01:04:54.704
So that not it would not only protect your privacy as, the recipient of those donations because it makes it hard to follow,
846
01:04:55.780 --> 01:04:58.200
what you're spending that donated money on,
847
01:04:58.580 --> 01:05:01.160
but it can also protect your donors that,
848
01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:02.795
it will be a lot
849
01:05:03.355 --> 01:05:06.575
more it'd be a lot more difficult to figure out,
850
01:05:06.954 --> 01:05:12.780
who donated and and, which address is used for what, because it would just look like a whole mess of,
851
01:05:13.340 --> 01:05:16.560
inputs and outputs, and who knows what belongs to who.
852
01:05:17.020 --> 01:05:22.000
I've I figured you'd have strong opinions on this considering your Twitter handle is at coin joiner.
853
01:05:23.205 --> 01:05:29.705
So, I mean, let's talk about this from a practical point of view. First of all, there's these chain surveillance firms and freaks who have, you know,
854
01:05:30.040 --> 01:05:37.180
listened to a lot of dispatch. I've heard me explain this a 1000000 times, but it's always good to explain it just in case someone's coming in here fresh just for this episode
855
01:05:37.505 --> 01:05:38.405
to do crowdfunding.
856
01:05:39.425 --> 01:05:43.205
We have these these mercenary firms, these chain surveillance firms,
857
01:05:43.825 --> 01:05:49.550
that their only job is to track people's transactions, Collate known Bitcoin addresses track people's transactions.
858
01:05:49.930 --> 01:05:53.070
They work with corporations. They work with governments. They work with authoritarians.
859
01:05:53.370 --> 01:05:56.725
They share that information around. They have different automated tools to do
860
01:05:57.025 --> 01:05:59.605
it. And the the whole method to their madness
861
01:06:00.065 --> 01:06:03.205
is probability analysis. So with Bitcoin,
862
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:09.860
I can send transactions to myself all day if I want to. So their job is basically determine
863
01:06:10.240 --> 01:06:20.235
when I'm not sending a transaction to myself, I'm actually sending it to Tony or someone else. When does that change of ownership happen? And they they attach probability scores to that, and they have different heuristics
864
01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:21.580
that enable,
865
01:06:22.760 --> 01:06:25.420
that that affect those probabilities scores. So,
866
01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:28.060
one that Tony was just talking about is
867
01:06:28.375 --> 01:06:40.210
on in your Bitcoin wallet, it might say that you have a a total balance of 20,000,000 sats, but, really, it's made up of a bunch of UTXO's. UTXOs. You can think of them as, like, bills in your wallet. So you might actually have 4, $55,000,000
868
01:06:41.150 --> 01:06:42.050
SAT UTXOs.
869
01:06:42.589 --> 01:06:51.744
And if you construct a transaction that's paying out 20,000,000 sats, all 5,000,000 of all 4 of those 5,000,000 sat UTXOs are going on the input side,
870
01:06:52.150 --> 01:07:04.345
and there's something called the common input ownership heuristic, which is this idea that all the inputs are usually controlled by the same person because they're constructing a transaction. Now you can break that with a 2 person coin join.
871
01:07:05.865 --> 01:07:09.325
You can break it kind of with a simulated 2 person coin join,
872
01:07:10.660 --> 01:07:14.279
and and the reason is is because multiple people are providing inputs
873
01:07:14.740 --> 01:07:18.839
instead of instead of just 1 person. And one of the cool aspects of that
874
01:07:19.425 --> 01:07:19.925
is,
875
01:07:21.905 --> 01:07:24.965
one of the cool aspects of that is the more people that do that,
876
01:07:25.665 --> 01:07:39.075
even if you're not actually doing a 2 person coin join, you're you're breaking that common input on ownership heuristic. Another way is something called PayJoin, which actually BTC pay server supports. Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't using it,
877
01:07:39.375 --> 01:07:42.595
but, it's this idea that when you pay someone,
878
01:07:42.970 --> 01:07:44.590
the receiver is contributing
879
01:07:45.050 --> 01:07:45.790
a input.
880
01:07:46.330 --> 01:07:48.670
So on the input side, it's not just,
881
01:07:49.290 --> 01:07:54.475
the sender's input. It's also one of the receiver's input, and it, like, breaks that probability analysis.
882
01:07:55.335 --> 01:07:58.235
Now the the reason I bring this up is because
883
01:07:58.940 --> 01:08:00.400
if you have a nonreused
884
01:08:00.700 --> 01:08:01.599
address fundraiser
885
01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:09.964
so with with the Tali coin fundraiser, it was obvious. Right? It was a fixed address. Everyone could see how much was being raised on chain. They could see who was donating to
886
01:08:10.265 --> 01:08:22.989
it. If they were sending from KYC exchanges or if they were KYC'd a couple hops away, they could combine that. So, like, a chain surveillance firm could see, this donation came from Cash App. I'm gonna hit Cash App up and say, who made this withdrawal?
887
01:08:23.369 --> 01:08:29.804
Cash App then sends, you know, their their their full name, their address, their phone number, their email address,
888
01:08:30.184 --> 01:08:32.204
you know, a picture of of their face,
889
01:08:33.580 --> 01:08:45.545
and then they can use that to then track more people. Now if you're not reusing addresses, it's not as easy for them, but one of the common techniques they'll do is they'll basically donate to the to the fund as well,
890
01:08:45.925 --> 01:08:46.905
and then track
891
01:08:47.285 --> 01:08:48.905
that transaction flow.
892
01:08:49.580 --> 01:08:51.440
So if if I wanted to track,
893
01:08:52.300 --> 01:08:57.520
like, the Bitcoin Smiles fundraiser and and see, you know, how those flows are moving,
894
01:08:58.025 --> 01:09:03.724
I would basically just keep sending my own Bitcoin as donations and then track each of those outputs
895
01:09:04.344 --> 01:09:10.970
and see are they getting commingled with other outputs and then try and track from there. That would be the technique that would be done. Right?
896
01:09:13.510 --> 01:09:18.255
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And so, ideally, after you've received that money,
897
01:09:18.955 --> 01:09:20.335
it would best to
898
01:09:20.635 --> 01:09:22.170
it'll be best to coinjoin it
899
01:09:22.890 --> 01:09:24.090
after you received it,
900
01:09:24.650 --> 01:09:26.350
and and in a way that doesn't
901
01:09:26.730 --> 01:09:28.510
merge all your UTXOs
902
01:09:29.050 --> 01:09:31.230
into as sort of one big input.
903
01:09:32.715 --> 01:09:34.074
Yeah. You don't wanna do, like
904
01:09:34.875 --> 01:09:40.014
if if your if your coin join is just merging all of them together and doing a coin join, that doesn't help either.
905
01:09:40.470 --> 01:09:42.890
So then there's another aspect, coin selection.
906
01:09:43.830 --> 01:09:48.585
So should we talk about coin selection? Nick, you wanna talk about coin selection a little bit? Yeah. Sure.
907
01:09:49.765 --> 01:09:52.345
So so when you're constructing a Bitcoin transaction,
908
01:09:53.205 --> 01:09:55.225
you can choose which UTXOs.
909
01:09:55.605 --> 01:09:58.770
If using a good wallet, you can choose which inputs,
910
01:09:59.630 --> 01:10:01.889
are gonna be used for that Bitcoin transaction.
911
01:10:02.909 --> 01:10:03.650
So ideally,
912
01:10:04.505 --> 01:10:06.605
maybe if if you're receiving donations,
913
01:10:07.785 --> 01:10:11.405
and and you would hide the privacy of your donors and and yourself,
914
01:10:12.350 --> 01:10:15.170
You would say you would you might select each,
915
01:10:15.790 --> 01:10:16.290
donation
916
01:10:16.670 --> 01:10:17.170
input
917
01:10:17.790 --> 01:10:20.050
and and use each input individually,
918
01:10:20.430 --> 01:10:21.650
like, one at a time,
919
01:10:22.335 --> 01:10:30.275
in in a coin join transaction to break that link, without yeah. With instead of sort of merging them all into 1 and then and then coin joining,
920
01:10:30.699 --> 01:10:32.719
sort of defeat the purpose a bit.
921
01:10:34.860 --> 01:10:37.679
So not all wallets have, coin control.
922
01:10:39.755 --> 01:10:43.934
I think it's kinda cool that BTC pay server actually has an integrated wallet.
923
01:10:46.395 --> 01:10:50.950
Pavel, do you know, is that in does that integrated wallet have coin control in it? It does. Right?
924
01:10:51.970 --> 01:10:53.670
Yeah. It does. Also,
925
01:10:53.970 --> 01:10:55.190
we do label
926
01:10:55.730 --> 01:10:56.230
certain
927
01:10:56.745 --> 01:11:01.245
invoices. For example, if you have a crowdfunding, we'll label it crowdfunding for you,
928
01:11:01.864 --> 01:11:09.350
and we try to auto label as much as we can so that we can make it easier for you to know where your, you know,
929
01:11:10.370 --> 01:11:17.255
what you ex your tech service belong to, what store, or what app. So we try to do a little bit automation on on that end.
930
01:11:18.515 --> 01:11:32.744
So, yeah, you you can with BDC pay server pretty easily, like, you know, label use labels in order to send funds from from the wallet. Also, that wallet, if you're a self hosting server, relies on your full node
931
01:11:33.204 --> 01:11:35.204
and on top of that has a full,
932
01:11:35.525 --> 01:11:39.304
hardware wallet support. So you can use your hardware wallets,
933
01:11:39.990 --> 01:11:41.350
with your full load,
934
01:11:41.750 --> 01:11:43.930
on your own server. So you don't have to
935
01:11:44.470 --> 01:11:53.345
leak information to third party servers or whatever web, wallets that, third parties are hosting. For example, I know,
936
01:11:53.725 --> 01:11:56.385
Trezor or whatever wallet we are talking about.
937
01:11:56.970 --> 01:12:13.764
So our wallet is, pretty good privacy wise, but I'm not sure how, many people are actually using it to do. It it is we recently, like, released an update and improved its UI as well. So I think it's we're we're getting there when it comes to usability of our vault.
938
01:12:14.940 --> 01:12:17.260
I guess one of the problems with,
939
01:12:17.900 --> 01:12:20.480
with with with, I guess, like, obfuscating
940
01:12:20.860 --> 01:12:24.805
all the donors and and, you know, doing coin joining afterwards is that,
941
01:12:25.425 --> 01:12:28.565
the reality is that, you know, you do lose some visibility
942
01:12:29.265 --> 01:12:32.645
as as as a donation and crowdfunding source. So,
943
01:12:33.350 --> 01:12:51.925
you know, on one hand, like, it's great privacy, like, no one should know what I'm doing with the funds, but there is one trade off in in the fact that, like, you know, if you are trying to be as visible as possible, just trying to be accountable, trying to, like, you know, if if I think we've we've seen it a little bit with this tally coin stuff is is, you know, there were people,
944
01:12:52.690 --> 01:13:01.775
out there kind of threatening, like, hey. I don't think you're actually, like, gonna donate the funds. I'm I wanna hold you accountable. I wanna see, you know, the donations going off. So I guess,
945
01:13:02.415 --> 01:13:04.195
there's sort of an aspect of
946
01:13:04.495 --> 01:13:08.114
of of having, like, super visibility for for transparency
947
01:13:08.415 --> 01:13:11.620
sake, and then also just wanting to protect yourselves,
948
01:13:12.160 --> 01:13:18.435
from from a privacy perspective. I'm not sure if you guys have any thoughts on that. Yeah. That's a really good point. So, actually,
949
01:13:18.975 --> 01:13:19.475
Telecoin,
950
01:13:19.775 --> 01:13:21.875
in defense of them, they actually do support,
951
01:13:24.989 --> 01:13:28.090
a unique address for each donation, and they also support,
952
01:13:28.469 --> 01:13:29.929
Pay NIMs and other things.
953
01:13:30.525 --> 01:13:32.065
But the people running this fundraiser
954
01:13:32.365 --> 01:13:32.865
chose
955
01:13:33.405 --> 01:13:39.265
they they elected not to use those, and they elected to use a single address in the name of transparency.
956
01:13:40.170 --> 01:13:45.230
So, yeah, I I definitely think there's a there's a conversation to be had here as as to what,
957
01:13:46.490 --> 01:13:50.335
trade off you're gonna make. Is is the transparency really worth,
958
01:13:51.115 --> 01:13:55.535
how much privacy has been given up, for the recipients and and the donors.
959
01:13:57.410 --> 01:14:05.429
Because personally, I I would I would think that there there's gotta be better ways to prove that you're gonna use the funds in a in a
960
01:14:06.475 --> 01:14:06.975
appropriate
961
01:14:07.515 --> 01:14:12.335
manner. I think there's there's probably some better way to do, like, a proof of reserves in some,
962
01:14:12.795 --> 01:14:14.255
maybe more private way,
963
01:14:15.270 --> 01:14:19.610
and and also prove that the donations are going out in sort of a,
964
01:14:20.790 --> 01:14:23.450
using the fund putting the the funds to good use.
965
01:14:24.775 --> 01:14:32.155
I mean, you're not really getting, like, that much of a transparency benefit from reusing address except for total amount raised.
966
01:14:32.590 --> 01:14:33.890
Because at the end of the day,
967
01:14:34.990 --> 01:14:40.350
unless you go and, you know, film every person you give the Bitcoin to, you could
968
01:14:41.415 --> 01:14:43.995
which has its own privacy risks, you could just,
969
01:14:44.935 --> 01:14:48.315
you know, send out those funds to a 1000000 different addresses,
970
01:14:48.730 --> 01:15:00.175
and you control all those 1000000 different addresses anyway. Yeah. You go out and you say these 1000000 addresses are truckers and not actually. But the alternative, if you don't reuse an address and you use Coin Control and you use CoinJoin,
971
01:15:00.795 --> 01:15:03.614
you can still if you want to docs all recipients
972
01:15:03.994 --> 01:15:07.195
on video, you could still do that. Right? Like, you like, is
973
01:15:08.250 --> 01:15:11.310
I wonder, like, is there, like like, on GoFundMe
974
01:15:12.250 --> 01:15:16.025
on GoFundMe when someone raises money on GoFundMe, which
975
01:15:16.585 --> 01:15:22.765
is is is by far, you know, getting way more volume than Bitcoin fundraising does.
976
01:15:23.360 --> 01:15:26.980
You're trusting GoFundMe of the total amount that has been raised.
977
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:37.324
Right? There's no transparency in that regard. You're sending bank transfers or credit card payments, and then you're you don't have any visibility into where it goes afterwards. Is there, like, really that much
978
01:15:38.264 --> 01:15:44.890
is there are you really even getting that much of transparency benefit? Is it even demanded by the market? Like, is that even something that Yeah.
979
01:15:45.270 --> 01:15:50.765
I don't think so. I I think, yeah, I think there's gonna be better ways to to sort of prove that you're a trustworthy,
980
01:15:51.705 --> 01:15:56.125
recipient of these donations and that you're that you're spending them in in good ways.
981
01:15:56.690 --> 01:15:57.510
I don't think,
982
01:15:58.369 --> 01:15:58.869
reusing
983
01:15:59.329 --> 01:16:02.230
an address and having having, like, a publicly visible
984
01:16:02.610 --> 01:16:04.550
total donated is really
985
01:16:06.095 --> 01:16:08.755
is really necessary for for things like this.
986
01:16:09.375 --> 01:16:14.160
Yeah. As you say, if you still want to go out and film handing the money out,
987
01:16:15.280 --> 01:16:16.020
the only
988
01:16:16.320 --> 01:16:18.820
only discrepancy there would be that maybe
989
01:16:19.520 --> 01:16:24.765
the the fundraiser received more money than you gave out, and and no one's able to prove that.
990
01:16:25.545 --> 01:16:27.085
But I I think that
991
01:16:27.705 --> 01:16:29.885
that's not really the biggest concern.
992
01:16:30.745 --> 01:16:33.320
And, like, when, like, I'm donating to something,
993
01:16:33.860 --> 01:16:41.239
I'm choosing to trust the organizer of the raise. Or if it's just an individual, I'm trusting the individual. I, like, I don't
994
01:16:41.685 --> 01:16:46.264
I don't need to have insight into what happens to that money afterwards, but maybe I'm
995
01:16:46.724 --> 01:16:51.430
Yeah. And I do wanna trust relationship already. Yeah. And I do wanna touch on that. Like, there is,
996
01:16:52.070 --> 01:17:12.890
there is a a difference here between, like, being an individual and accepting crowd fund. Like, you know, say I'm an individual, and I can go out and set up my BTC pay server or sat sale and and go out there and, like, pitch myself as and, you know, advertise and say, hey. You know, I'm a trucker. You know, please donate to me. But then there is another there is a trade off here, like another side of the coin where,
997
01:17:13.430 --> 01:17:19.655
we don't actually, like, know all the truckers addresses. So we actually have to go out there and and sort of be,
998
01:17:20.035 --> 01:17:21.015
you know, a
999
01:17:21.795 --> 01:17:23.895
a custodian for for donations.
1000
01:17:24.355 --> 01:17:26.295
Like, you donate to this master.
1001
01:17:27.240 --> 01:17:30.620
You know, it could be multisig, you know, so you're so you're trusting,
1002
01:17:31.160 --> 01:17:32.140
multiple individuals,
1003
01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:37.065
instead of just having to trust a single one. But there is kind of a difference here
1004
01:17:37.445 --> 01:17:39.045
in in in setting up,
1005
01:17:39.605 --> 01:17:52.140
this for yourself. And then and then how do you go out and find all the truckers to donate to? So, like, there's a little bit of a problem here, and I think, PTC pay server. I was actually, like, you know, looking at your sites and everything. I actually like your your guys' approach.
1006
01:17:52.505 --> 01:18:13.415
If I'm an individual and I wanna just, quote, unquote, donate to BTC pay server, like, there is, you guys do list individual contributors and point to their own Yeah. BTC pay servers. If I if I recall correctly, they don't even have a master fund that you can donate to. You choose who you wanna donate to. And, I mean, this is a key point here. Right? It's because the whole point to me of Bitcoin is p to p commerce
1007
01:18:13.795 --> 01:18:16.215
and this idea of lowering friction. Right?
1008
01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:21.500
And so maybe to to me, when you're especially when you're talking about a situation
1009
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:23.900
where you're dealing with a hostile state,
1010
01:18:25.985 --> 01:18:30.244
Bitcoin should be able to obviate the need for large centralized
1011
01:18:30.545 --> 01:18:33.525
crowd funds. If you have many small individual
1012
01:18:34.550 --> 01:18:35.050
raises,
1013
01:18:35.750 --> 01:18:42.409
that are going direct to those individuals and we already see this with the protests where where individuals at protests
1014
01:18:42.949 --> 01:18:43.690
are posting
1015
01:18:44.295 --> 01:18:47.594
social media posts about their experiences. They're posting videos.
1016
01:18:47.974 --> 01:18:50.554
Now you can imagine a world with BIP 47
1017
01:18:51.574 --> 01:18:52.074
or
1018
01:18:53.340 --> 01:19:06.895
Bolt 12 or something like that on the lightning side or lightning addresses or something like that, where, like, a trucker can put a QR code on their truck. And if you see that if you see that QR code on the thing, you can pay to it. And the reason almost is, like
1019
01:19:07.720 --> 01:19:17.315
the reason we don't see that as much is because there is a level of friction to running a BTC pay server or sat sale. Right? Like, individual truckers can't figure that out, or maybe they
1020
01:19:17.695 --> 01:19:22.675
can, but it there's definitely a level of friction there as opposed to just downloading a mobile wallet,
1021
01:19:23.135 --> 01:19:30.570
getting your BIP 47 QR code, and, you know, painting it on your truck or posting it on social media or something. Right?
1022
01:19:31.989 --> 01:19:36.454
Yeah. That's very true. It's, it's a lot more accessible. I I'm not gonna pretend that
1023
01:19:36.755 --> 01:19:39.074
installing Satsail is the easiest thing in the world.
1024
01:19:39.954 --> 01:19:53.205
It's it's definitely not the easiest thing to set up sometimes, even though maybe for Bitcoiners, it's not too bad. But for people who have never touched Bitcoin before, they don't know what a node is. They don't know what a VPS is. They don't know any of these things are.
1025
01:19:53.585 --> 01:19:57.525
It's much much easier for them to download a mobile wallet that would support,
1026
01:19:58.190 --> 01:19:59.650
these, yeah, reusable,
1027
01:20:01.070 --> 01:20:02.930
payment codes and and other,
1028
01:20:04.989 --> 01:20:07.090
more private methods of receiving donations.
1029
01:20:08.775 --> 01:20:10.315
Pavel, what's your thoughts here?
1030
01:20:12.455 --> 01:20:22.300
Well, you know, I just think it is beautiful that we have many options, and that, different use cases can be fulfilled through all these options. And that,
1031
01:20:22.680 --> 01:20:26.220
at the end of the day, we still don't have a perfect solution. So
1032
01:20:26.725 --> 01:20:27.465
I'm just
1033
01:20:28.245 --> 01:20:28.745
excited
1034
01:20:29.205 --> 01:20:38.310
about the future development and what people will come up with and may perhaps make BDC base server obsolete one day, you know, making better things and improving protocols
1035
01:20:39.090 --> 01:20:40.770
and developing things that,
1036
01:20:41.410 --> 01:20:42.470
are easy for,
1037
01:20:43.485 --> 01:20:58.110
I guess, newbies to use. So I agree with you. It is much easier to just paint a QR code, on a truck or, you know, just print it out and put it in store then installing a payment server. But, yeah, payment server have their own use case.
1038
01:20:58.410 --> 01:20:59.710
It's just a different,
1039
01:21:00.170 --> 01:21:04.304
you know, we are just trying to help people out any way we can, but
1040
01:21:04.605 --> 01:21:13.429
there needs to be a much easier way to to, you know, accept, basically, donations. And, yeah, I'm just excited and hopeful
1041
01:21:13.730 --> 01:21:18.310
that we'll have a solution one day. Maybe not tomorrow, but who knows?
1042
01:21:19.425 --> 01:21:21.605
I know, BTC pay server
1043
01:21:21.985 --> 01:21:24.085
don't you guys also have that sort of,
1044
01:21:24.864 --> 01:21:27.525
uncle Jim sort of setup where I could
1045
01:21:28.050 --> 01:21:32.790
host my BTC pay server, and then I could make sort of like
1046
01:21:33.330 --> 01:21:43.015
sub servers. I'm not sure what you call them, but like sort of different donation accounts for, like, a whole bunch of my friends, for example. And and they would have their own individual,
1047
01:21:43.715 --> 01:21:44.855
donation portal,
1048
01:21:45.680 --> 01:21:47.620
that would be sort of specific for
1049
01:21:48.080 --> 01:21:50.260
those those funds for receiving for them.
1050
01:21:51.040 --> 01:21:54.855
Would you be able to speak a little bit about that? So I think that's a really cool idea that
1051
01:21:55.315 --> 01:21:56.454
maybe, for example,
1052
01:21:56.755 --> 01:22:03.175
instead of having 1 big crowdfunding platform, you could have sure. One person might host it, but
1053
01:22:03.510 --> 01:22:04.570
the individual,
1054
01:22:06.070 --> 01:22:06.570
donation
1055
01:22:07.510 --> 01:22:12.010
the the donations go to, like, a specific individual. So you could have, like, one,
1056
01:22:12.585 --> 01:22:15.245
donation gateway for each trucker, for example,
1057
01:22:15.865 --> 01:22:22.220
and it would go directly to them, and it would still be in a more, sort of privacy enhancing way by not reusing addresses.
1058
01:22:23.240 --> 01:22:24.220
What are your thoughts?
1059
01:22:24.920 --> 01:22:39.220
Yeah. That's that's awesome that you mentioned it. I didn't, even think about mentioning it because, you know, it involves a certain trust in whoever is hosting a server. But, yeah, BTC based server does not mean that you need to, like, host it. You can,
1060
01:22:40.020 --> 01:22:42.680
we call these people third party hosts. So,
1061
01:22:43.765 --> 01:22:50.025
we obviously don't envision a world where and everybody needs to run a server in order to accept Bitcoin payments,
1062
01:22:50.565 --> 01:22:51.545
but we
1063
01:22:51.845 --> 01:22:54.920
like to think about it as having, as many,
1064
01:22:55.780 --> 01:23:14.190
BTC based server factories around the world, community members running BTC based servers. For example, in El Salvador, we have community members running us BTC pay for, you know, their local community and the onboarding merchants on their own beat on on their BTC based server and later on educating merchants
1065
01:23:14.810 --> 01:23:27.005
about, you know, them them deploying their own servers. So for on chain transactions, this works well. People just need to input their own x pub key or public key, and it is easy. The the tricky part to,
1066
01:23:27.405 --> 01:23:27.905
which
1067
01:23:28.510 --> 01:23:32.770
we have problem with right now is lighting network and how do we, you know,
1068
01:23:33.630 --> 01:23:43.825
allow people to accept Bitcoin payments in a non custodial way. Because if you're sharing your BTC based server with your local community, you need to take custody
1069
01:23:45.245 --> 01:23:51.060
of of of their funds while the Lightning Network, and this is where we are struggling at the moment. There are some things
1070
01:23:51.520 --> 01:24:01.844
that we are, thinking of. For example, having a dedicated b two c pay server app, where one day you will be able to run a node on your phone, lightning node, and then connect to that server.
1071
01:24:02.225 --> 01:24:02.725
So,
1072
01:24:03.410 --> 01:24:11.910
you know, we there are solutions, but we are just, you know, exploring all the options. But, yeah, simply said, people can open up their BTC
1073
01:24:12.215 --> 01:24:16.235
server to anybody or to their friends and invite them or, you know,
1074
01:24:17.175 --> 01:24:27.970
so that anybody can basically accept payments, and you are just hosting a server. So, yeah, it's uncle Jim type of thing as you mentioned. So I'm really glad that you brought it up because I completely forgot
1075
01:24:28.430 --> 01:24:29.115
about it.
1076
01:24:29.675 --> 01:24:30.975
Maybe with lightning,
1077
01:24:31.595 --> 01:24:33.535
something I was thinking about. So
1078
01:24:34.235 --> 01:24:34.735
maybe,
1079
01:24:35.915 --> 01:24:40.400
like, the main so the person who's running the the shared BTC pay server,
1080
01:24:40.860 --> 01:24:44.160
maybe the lightning payments go to them and they hold
1081
01:24:47.015 --> 01:24:47.515
automatically
1082
01:24:47.975 --> 01:24:53.115
withdraw after, say, like, I don't know, 10,000 sets or something that it makes
1083
01:24:53.450 --> 01:24:54.670
an on chain transaction
1084
01:24:54.970 --> 01:24:55.870
going to,
1085
01:24:57.210 --> 01:24:58.110
going to the
1086
01:24:58.650 --> 01:24:59.390
to the
1087
01:25:00.090 --> 01:25:00.670
the actual,
1088
01:25:02.525 --> 01:25:05.505
the specific individuals. So you you make a lightning payment.
1089
01:25:06.605 --> 01:25:08.465
You're intending it to go to,
1090
01:25:09.690 --> 01:25:12.350
someone who's using that shared BTC pay server.
1091
01:25:13.210 --> 01:25:22.025
The the lightning payment actually goes to the the sort of the main the main, person who's running the payment server, it goes to their lightning node, but then say maybe after,
1092
01:25:22.725 --> 01:25:26.105
some amount of sets have have built up in that in that,
1093
01:25:27.350 --> 01:25:30.570
on their side, then they could, like, automatically withdraw it maybe,
1094
01:25:31.590 --> 01:25:32.890
to to the individual
1095
01:25:33.670 --> 01:25:41.935
using the XPOD. Yeah. Yeah. This is this is already possible. We have a, like, a built in solution called lnbank, which is basically
1096
01:25:42.395 --> 01:25:45.054
a layer 3 running on top of l 2,
1097
01:25:45.820 --> 01:25:52.560
which allows people to have, like, internal BDC pay lightning bullets, but it all goes to one node, and then it is distributed
1098
01:25:52.860 --> 01:25:54.025
to them in a way.
1099
01:25:54.505 --> 01:26:01.165
Yeah. There there are, like, ways to, you know, hack around it, but for having it, like, to truly known custodial,
1100
01:26:02.910 --> 01:26:04.850
it is a bit tricky. And,
1101
01:26:05.630 --> 01:26:07.730
yeah, we are just exploring solutions
1102
01:26:08.190 --> 01:26:24.909
because we don't want to put, a target on people running instances. There are instances of BTC pay server that have 10,000 users. So you have one guy hosting it for 10,000 merchants around the world, and he's doing it for on chain completely free of charge. People import their own, public keys.
1103
01:26:25.370 --> 01:26:29.550
They accept they receive payments. He's not a custodian. He does not really, you know,
1104
01:26:30.145 --> 01:26:34.005
have custody of their funds. He cannot steal their funds. But with Lightning,
1105
01:26:34.305 --> 01:26:37.364
yeah, it's a hot wallet. It's a little bit of tricky. And,
1106
01:26:37.750 --> 01:26:49.995
you know, in some wicked world, per perhaps it can even have some, you know, legal implications for whoever he is hosting because he can be considered if, you know, government is stupid enough to try
1107
01:26:50.615 --> 01:26:52.235
to do it. He can be considered,
1108
01:26:52.855 --> 01:26:53.415
you know,
1109
01:26:54.455 --> 01:26:56.635
basically a money transmitter. So,
1110
01:26:58.210 --> 01:27:00.230
yeah. Yeah. The the custodian.
1111
01:27:00.690 --> 01:27:04.230
Yeah. At that point, they're they're receiving the funds, and they've got some responsibility.
1112
01:27:04.690 --> 01:27:11.675
Yeah. But, ideally, if we could make it that, lightning nodes are run on mobile phones and that they are online
1113
01:27:12.135 --> 01:27:22.270
with the ability to accept payments at any time, then, ideally, you can onboard people to your instance. They just install b t c pay server remote mobile application that allows you to connect to a server,
1114
01:27:22.755 --> 01:27:28.775
and then everybody are happy. Nobody's custodian euro funds. You're running node, lightning node on your phone.
1115
01:27:29.395 --> 01:27:31.735
And yeah. But yeah. That's,
1116
01:27:32.140 --> 01:27:41.440
hopefully, we will get there one day. We are, thinking about it. It's one of our goals this year to create a dedicated app so that anybody can install it, then choose a server,
1117
01:27:41.805 --> 01:27:57.350
or, you know, host their their own and then accept payments. But, yeah, it's it's tricky. It's not an easy things to thing to solve, but we are we are very committed of it. It's one of our top priorities this, I guess, year and next as well. Yeah. I could definitely see something very,
1118
01:27:58.155 --> 01:28:13.660
Moonwalet like, m u u n, where, you know, you're basically an LSP and and and all the invoices that come in get turned into, like, on chain transactions in the end. You know, you do kinda pay a little bit more on the fees. You know, you just take that out of the receiving user. But,
1119
01:28:14.380 --> 01:28:21.205
I can definitely see something like that where, like, the BTC pay, uncle gyms can can kinda still accept lightning without being, like, a custodian.
1120
01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:27.260
There's arguments of, like, whether or not there's, like, you know, at any point, they can run off with the funds, but, you know, at that point,
1121
01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:31.465
you know, it's like donations or payments or something. You know, it's just temporarily trusted and,
1122
01:28:34.344 --> 01:28:39.085
Uncle Jim. So, ideally, you know, maybe it's not like tens of thousands of users using
1123
01:28:39.460 --> 01:28:43.480
using 1, but I would love to have seen, like, a situation where it's not just,
1124
01:28:43.860 --> 01:28:47.400
you know, like, 3 or 4 people taking charge of
1125
01:28:47.945 --> 01:28:50.685
of a such a massive, like, you know, donation
1126
01:28:50.985 --> 01:28:53.165
crowdfunding effort, and it's more like,
1127
01:28:53.625 --> 01:28:56.925
you know, like, 20 to 100 different uncle gyms.
1128
01:28:58.050 --> 01:29:02.870
But at the same time, like, we almost go back to it. Like, you never really know how big
1129
01:29:03.490 --> 01:29:08.215
something's gonna be or how, you know, how mad the government's gonna be at you afterwards,
1130
01:29:08.835 --> 01:29:16.640
when we're doing when we're talking about Bitcoin. Like, you know, once an address is out there, it's out there. And then everyone in the world can decide that they wanna donate it.
1131
01:29:17.100 --> 01:29:21.440
So it's it's kind of like things that we kinda have to think about before,
1132
01:29:22.965 --> 01:29:27.465
you know, goes back to, like, the transparency thing too. Like, sure. We wanna be super transparent,
1133
01:29:27.845 --> 01:29:29.465
and then they just use one address.
1134
01:29:30.250 --> 01:29:33.150
You know, the things that we have to sort of think about before,
1135
01:29:34.090 --> 01:29:36.270
we get involved in in, like, crowdfunding,
1136
01:29:36.890 --> 01:29:39.790
especially if we're doing it on behalf of other people. And,
1137
01:29:40.255 --> 01:29:58.515
yeah, I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Just just the idea that I would love to see more, like, uncle Jim's involved in in crowdfunding efforts and, you know, maybe even, like, you know, rotating out uncle Jim's when when the time is right where it's just not, like, one single point of failure or, you know, 33 or 5 single point of failure or things like that.
1138
01:29:59.135 --> 01:30:03.155
Yeah. I I completely agree. Reducing, you know, the centralization
1139
01:30:03.590 --> 01:30:06.250
in a way and having as many options out there
1140
01:30:06.630 --> 01:30:12.329
and, you know, decentralizing, making it harder for people to attack a single point, it is.
1141
01:30:12.985 --> 01:30:19.804
I guess, that's that's what matters. If you we I don't envision a world where everybody needs to run a node, but, yeah,
1142
01:30:20.330 --> 01:30:22.989
if we can make it easier so that, you know,
1143
01:30:23.369 --> 01:30:30.615
we have, like, servers all around the the world, it it will be harder for government or whoever is trying to attack.
1144
01:30:31.395 --> 01:30:31.895
Yeah.
1145
01:30:32.275 --> 01:30:35.735
I guess that that that that's one of the things I'm also excited
1146
01:30:36.115 --> 01:30:41.480
excited about when it comes to B2C based server. Just, you know, making it hard for people to,
1147
01:30:42.260 --> 01:30:44.440
have a centralization of power
1148
01:30:44.835 --> 01:30:55.469
against us. So just having as much options and as much as alternatives. Because at this point, you have, like, maybe I I haven't counted it, but you maybe have, like, 20 or 30 or 50,
1149
01:30:56.250 --> 01:30:56.989
in a way,
1150
01:30:57.290 --> 01:31:02.670
small BTC based server providers and people, you know, just backing BTC based server locally,
1151
01:31:03.175 --> 01:31:10.475
translating it to their own language, and, you know, making their own payment customized payment processor for their local communities.
1152
01:31:11.160 --> 01:31:21.335
That's that that's our goal. We are just here to make software, and it's up to people how they will use it and distribute it and, you know, make it hard, for for government or or the attacker to, you know,
1153
01:31:22.275 --> 01:31:29.815
chase them or stop them. And it's also about circular economy, I want to say. With Bitcoin Smiles, for example, for us, it is very easy.
1154
01:31:30.469 --> 01:31:31.849
We don't have, like, concerns,
1155
01:31:32.469 --> 01:31:32.969
like,
1156
01:31:33.270 --> 01:31:52.170
Canadian trackers have, but it is very easy for us when we don't have to, you know, convert Bitcoin. Because I've been working with nonprofits for now 4 years with BDC based. Right? I constantly try to assist them, and there are so many things. I mean, we we are talking here about all of these technical things like coin join, pain join. But when it comes to these nonprofits,
1157
01:31:52.470 --> 01:31:57.675
trust me, for them, they barely know how to use the wallet. It's so confusing for for them.
1158
01:31:58.135 --> 01:32:13.590
They then try to, you know, sell it, and then they get back to us. So we should have sold the Bitcoin. We should have kept it and things like that. So, like, circular economy can also make, things way easier and much more resilient in in my opinion as well, reducing the essentials.
1159
01:32:14.095 --> 01:32:24.660
Yeah. Let's unpack that because, I mean, to the listener, they might not realize Bitcoin Smiles is a El Salvador, is is based in El Salvador. It's a fundraiser to,
1160
01:32:25.200 --> 01:32:26.340
have dental care,
1161
01:32:26.720 --> 01:32:27.860
for local Salvadorans.
1162
01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:35.594
El Salvador has this, you know, this legal tender law. If you don't if you're not aware that Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador,
1163
01:32:36.054 --> 01:32:39.594
you're probably living under a rock. But, that means that
1164
01:32:39.960 --> 01:32:46.060
all the all that money that is raised, all that Bitcoin that is raised can directly be spent on whatever items they need.
1165
01:32:46.440 --> 01:32:47.420
Right? But in,
1166
01:32:48.565 --> 01:32:50.185
in the in the case of,
1167
01:32:50.805 --> 01:32:52.105
the Canadian protesters,
1168
01:32:53.765 --> 01:32:54.585
there isn't
1169
01:32:55.260 --> 01:32:58.159
necessarily that ability to spend the Bitcoin directly.
1170
01:32:59.739 --> 01:33:06.574
And and as a result, what you usually see people recommend is, okay, then go cash it out at a regulated service provider,
1171
01:33:06.954 --> 01:33:08.175
a regulated brokerage.
1172
01:33:08.635 --> 01:33:14.139
That comes with KYC. That comes with the potential of getting blacklisted at one of those exchanges.
1173
01:33:14.679 --> 01:33:19.019
So, Pavel, like, in your experience when you're when you're when you're doing these raises
1174
01:33:19.400 --> 01:33:23.635
for places that are not El Salvador, like in any of the other countries besides El Salvador.
1175
01:33:25.295 --> 01:33:34.969
From, like, a practical point of view, like, how do people go about that? Like, how is what techniques they use? What is what are the strategies that people think about in terms of turning that fundraise Bitcoin into,
1176
01:33:36.150 --> 01:33:38.489
actual real world things they need?
1177
01:33:39.795 --> 01:33:43.815
Yeah. Sure. So one just one one thing about, Bitcoin Smiles.
1178
01:33:44.995 --> 01:33:46.455
The reason why it was
1179
01:33:47.130 --> 01:33:50.030
so easy for me to, you know, work on it is because
1180
01:33:50.490 --> 01:33:51.390
we just did,
1181
01:33:51.770 --> 01:34:01.145
did entire setup on top of Bitcoin. So we did not Bitcoin Smiles is basically just a community project. It is not a proper nonprofit. We didn't we don't have any,
1182
01:34:01.925 --> 01:34:21.445
paperwork setup. We didn't have to do any of that in order to to raise funds and change people life. It it basically was the 2 of us having a chat like we are now. And I asked him, like, okay. What can I do to help you? And then he told me this story about, you know, people having dentures and not having access to medical care. And I was like, okay.
1183
01:34:21.800 --> 01:34:33.525
Let's create a crowdfunding. And he was like, well, you know, I'm not really a num you don't have to be. Like, you can just do things on top of Bitcoin, and you don't have to care about all of these things. Because if you don't convert it,
1184
01:34:34.145 --> 01:34:41.290
if you, you know, just spend it directly on patients and medication and, you know, all sorts of things. Like, you
1185
01:34:41.750 --> 01:34:52.065
you don't have to go through all of these complexities. And the reason why we were able to move this fast with Bitcoin Smiles is we removed all of these government complexities that,
1186
01:34:52.525 --> 01:34:54.385
people usually have problems. Because,
1187
01:34:54.949 --> 01:35:29.520
with BTC based survey, the foundation a foundation that funds, of of couple of, you know, developers to build BTC based server, It's a proper nonprofit, and it was pain in the ass to to form it to I think it took us a year and a half to to do it properly. Like, that is insane. With with Bitcoin Smiles, it was just 2 of us. We we raised 2 Bitcoin, and we were immediately, like, able to change people lives. So that's, one thing I want to point out that you don't, with Bitcoin, you can do things that, you know, depends on the way you use it. But, yeah, I I you get the point what what I'm trying to say. I'm just, you know, too excited.
1188
01:35:30.220 --> 01:35:31.360
Yeah. So
1189
01:35:32.300 --> 01:35:36.395
I guess, so so, yeah. It works in El Salvador when people are receiving
1190
01:35:36.855 --> 01:35:41.200
Bitcoin directly and and it's legal tender there. It's very easy for them to go and spend it.
1191
01:35:42.080 --> 01:35:45.380
But for the Canadian truckers who have now received this Bitcoin,
1192
01:35:46.080 --> 01:35:51.925
and and they can't even go and cash it out because these these UTXO's are all in this huge blacklisted,
1193
01:35:53.025 --> 01:35:54.725
this huge list of of,
1194
01:35:55.905 --> 01:36:00.920
transactions that UTXOs that these or the exchanges aren't allowed to process.
1195
01:36:01.700 --> 01:36:07.960
So how how do the truckers actually go and spend that Bitcoin that they've now received? I think it's a bit of an issue.
1196
01:36:08.575 --> 01:36:10.675
And I saw some people suggesting that
1197
01:36:11.335 --> 01:36:11.835
that,
1198
01:36:12.735 --> 01:36:15.315
bitcoin is in Canada should should go and
1199
01:36:16.030 --> 01:36:19.010
go on and and buy bitcoin. Might have been me. Yeah.
1200
01:36:20.190 --> 01:36:25.250
It's a really good opportunity to go and and and get some, like, no k y c Bitcoin perhaps,
1201
01:36:25.935 --> 01:36:34.515
directly from them. It it would be Well, my argument was that forget the Canadian protest. Just protest in general. Like, if you have a protest that's locally by you,
1202
01:36:35.080 --> 01:36:38.680
it just might be a good opportunity to get no KYC stats because,
1203
01:36:39.160 --> 01:36:41.180
it's just something that I do. I like Bitcoin.
1204
01:36:41.845 --> 01:36:52.489
If I if I know I'm gonna hang out with Bitcoiners, like, I always make sure to have some cash on me so they could buy their drinks for them, and then they they pay me in Bitcoin. Like, I know at at some point at 2 in the morning, they're just gonna only have sats,
1205
01:36:53.670 --> 01:36:59.865
and I don't see why it would be a especially if Bitcoin fundraising for protest becomes more common,
1206
01:37:00.805 --> 01:37:08.345
because, I mean, obviously, it's highlighted now for the Canadian protest. But my work with with with Alex Gladstein at HRF,
1207
01:37:10.550 --> 01:37:15.610
it it became really obvious. Like, that's that's the main use case for
1208
01:37:16.915 --> 01:37:21.335
dissidents and activists around the world. Like, if you live in an authoritarian country
1209
01:37:21.875 --> 01:37:25.060
and you are a political you're politically persecuted,
1210
01:37:25.700 --> 01:37:26.680
against the government,
1211
01:37:27.140 --> 01:37:29.800
you are gonna be completely financially blockaded.
1212
01:37:30.660 --> 01:37:31.880
A 100% blockaded.
1213
01:37:32.455 --> 01:37:35.675
If you tell them they can just receive funds from anywhere in the world,
1214
01:37:35.975 --> 01:37:44.620
their eyes light up. It's obvious. It's an obvious use case to them. Now once you start going down the rabbit hole of you gotta use BTC pay server and you gotta,
1215
01:37:45.160 --> 01:37:53.705
you know, you gotta you gotta run you gotta run a server, and then they're like, how do how do I make sure the government doesn't know I'm running server, and then you gotta maintain coin control and all that stuff?
1216
01:37:54.165 --> 01:37:55.465
It gets a little bit
1217
01:37:55.844 --> 01:37:59.864
more dicey for them. But even if you see someone like Navalny of Russia,
1218
01:38:00.940 --> 01:38:09.680
they're still using a fixed used address a fixed reused address because they're like, it is so powerful for us to just be able to receive the funds in the first place.
1219
01:38:10.305 --> 01:38:18.885
I was talking to one of his head lawyers at HRF's most recent, Oslo Freedom Forum, and I was trying to convince her to switch. And she's like, I honestly, like, I don't care.
1220
01:38:19.730 --> 01:38:30.015
I Putin can know how much we're raising. He can't take it away from us. Now I strongly disagree with that premise, not only for them, but for their people that are donating to them.
1221
01:38:30.475 --> 01:38:30.975
But
1222
01:38:31.355 --> 01:38:34.015
that then the pain point immediately becomes,
1223
01:38:35.370 --> 01:38:37.710
how do you actually utilize the funds?
1224
01:38:38.250 --> 01:38:40.190
And in El Salvador, that's obvious.
1225
01:38:41.210 --> 01:38:46.185
And I'm curious, Pavel. And and by the way, your the the thing you mentioned about the nonprofit makes a lot
1226
01:38:46.805 --> 01:38:52.825
it hits really hard for me because, you know, I'm helping I'm a cofounder of OpenSats for open source funding,
1227
01:38:53.180 --> 01:38:59.210
and it took us fucking forever to get our nonprofit status. Like and there's so much paperwork. It's just a pain in the ass.
1228
01:39:00.225 --> 01:39:07.125
But yeah. So so how what do you advise them to do, dude? I mean, gift cards, I guess, is an option. It's not an ideal option.
1229
01:39:09.160 --> 01:39:13.260
Maybe, like, linking up with other Bitcoiners that are maybe ideologically motivated
1230
01:39:13.880 --> 01:39:19.915
that, you know, rather than just selling it to random bit corners at a protest, it's like, I'm ideologically motivated.
1231
01:39:20.455 --> 01:39:23.595
Reach out to them via, like, signal or some kind of encrypted channel
1232
01:39:23.930 --> 01:39:27.710
or even better at, you know, in person in a dark pub or something,
1233
01:39:28.090 --> 01:39:30.350
and be like, you know, will you buy
1234
01:39:31.445 --> 01:39:40.790
a couple $1,000 worth of Bitcoin so that I can go out and buy fuel or whatever, food or whatever people need? Like, how do you how do you frame it? How do you think about it?
1235
01:39:42.710 --> 01:39:45.130
Yeah. So HRF recently
1236
01:39:45.510 --> 01:39:48.090
has really been helpful in, you know,
1237
01:39:48.485 --> 01:39:50.025
onboarding all of these nonprofits.
1238
01:39:50.325 --> 01:39:55.065
Usually, they would go to us and then we would have to onboard them, but Alex and the team
1239
01:39:55.600 --> 01:40:03.199
have recently really done a great job in creating resources and also offering them help to set it up. So, basically, they offloaded all these,
1240
01:40:04.025 --> 01:40:09.625
complexities on our end so that we can develop software, and they basically educate people about,
1241
01:40:10.105 --> 01:40:13.830
how to use funds and, how to convert them. So
1242
01:40:14.210 --> 01:40:14.690
I think,
1243
01:40:15.250 --> 01:40:21.910
Alex may have, a better answer for that one. But, usually, my experience so far, I'll I worked with, I think,
1244
01:40:22.635 --> 01:40:26.175
15 at this point. What they usually do is they just,
1245
01:40:26.955 --> 01:40:36.470
hold a little Bitcoin for a specific period of time. And then once a month or once in a few weeks, then they go to an exchange and convert it. And then you have those that,
1246
01:40:37.125 --> 01:40:40.985
basically auto convert it or auto sell right away. We do have some things,
1247
01:40:41.605 --> 01:40:45.864
on BTC based around set up so that you can auto sell basically right away
1248
01:40:46.410 --> 01:40:50.990
To a KYC exchange. Right? Like, with an API. Yes. That's, yeah, that's very
1249
01:40:51.530 --> 01:40:54.305
it I guess it all depends on the, you know,
1250
01:40:55.105 --> 01:40:55.845
your concern
1251
01:40:56.945 --> 01:40:58.085
and how privacy,
1252
01:40:58.945 --> 01:41:02.725
how how much you care about the the privacy. So and also about
1253
01:41:03.330 --> 01:41:14.925
how capable you are technically in order to do it because, obviously, everybody will love to, you know, do it in a private way so they don't have to, you know, think about it. But, yeah, it's not really, like, we really have to handhold
1254
01:41:15.305 --> 01:41:28.239
most of these nonprofits. And it is sad truth that we mostly need to, you know, communicate bet back and forth with them, explain them, you know, go to this. You can buy gift cards if you're you know, just call it or, you know, find the local people,
1255
01:41:29.045 --> 01:41:31.545
to sell it to or, you know, things like that.
1256
01:41:32.565 --> 01:41:38.570
I think, Alex, really, they have some setup, but I cannot remember which exchange and how do they actually,
1257
01:41:39.190 --> 01:41:43.530
advise people to maybe it is best. I'm not sure. But, yeah, I think He really
1258
01:41:44.310 --> 01:41:45.290
likes Paxful
1259
01:41:46.525 --> 01:41:49.344
which does have KYC, but is peer to peer.
1260
01:41:50.764 --> 01:41:54.864
But, obviously, Bisc could be a good option. Huddl Huddl could be a decent option.
1261
01:41:55.410 --> 01:41:56.630
With Huddl Huddl, it's,
1262
01:41:57.489 --> 01:42:03.750
yeah. With Huddl Huddl, it's centralized, but non custodial. With BISK, it's it's more censorship resistant because it's actually,
1263
01:42:05.505 --> 01:42:09.605
you know, like, run the software on your own computer and connect to people peer to peer.
1264
01:42:10.465 --> 01:42:20.270
And you can even do the face to face option as well. So you Yeah. If you are doing, like, you know, protest level stuff, you can say, oh, let's meet where the protest is. Depending on your jurisdiction, ATMs could be a possibility.
1265
01:42:22.025 --> 01:42:24.844
Gift cards like Bitrefill could be an option.
1266
01:42:27.945 --> 01:42:29.005
There are some options.
1267
01:42:29.660 --> 01:42:30.160
Yeah.
1268
01:42:31.020 --> 01:42:31.740
I think it's,
1269
01:42:32.380 --> 01:42:33.840
it's a really big motivation
1270
01:42:34.220 --> 01:42:39.120
for really fostering that that circular economy of Bitcoin because
1271
01:42:39.885 --> 01:42:42.145
if, yeah, if if people do wanna cash out,
1272
01:42:42.685 --> 01:42:45.744
and they they can't go to a a k y c exchange,
1273
01:42:46.525 --> 01:42:50.239
then, yeah, I think we we really have to make sure that there are people,
1274
01:42:50.940 --> 01:42:51.840
willing to
1275
01:42:52.219 --> 01:42:55.760
to to buy the Bitcoin off them and transact in in Bitcoin.
1276
01:42:56.945 --> 01:43:05.364
So so, yeah, people actually need to use Bitcoin, not not just a sort of buy and hold sort of number go up. I think it's really important that actually,
1277
01:43:05.969 --> 01:43:12.869
these circular economies are fostered in this peer to peer way. And I feel like, I mean, this is a good a good point for people to realize.
1278
01:43:14.755 --> 01:43:22.055
Even in a world where the majority of donations are coming in through BIP 47 rather than something like, SatSale or BTCPay server,
1279
01:43:23.860 --> 01:43:25.480
Satsale and BTC pay
1280
01:43:26.820 --> 01:43:27.320
actually
1281
01:43:28.580 --> 01:43:29.240
could benefit
1282
01:43:29.620 --> 01:43:31.640
people who do these types of raises
1283
01:43:34.325 --> 01:43:35.305
indirectly because
1284
01:43:36.325 --> 01:43:41.945
they make it easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin without a trusted third party. And why is that important?
1285
01:43:42.540 --> 01:43:47.679
That's important because if you're accepting through BitPay or OpenNode, they can also get the blacklists.
1286
01:43:48.380 --> 01:43:49.520
But if we have
1287
01:43:49.875 --> 01:43:54.615
merchants around the world that are onboarded with BTC pay server or Satsale,
1288
01:43:55.875 --> 01:44:02.150
they can make their own determination of whether or not they're gonna be doing chain surveillance, whether or not they're gonna be complying with,
1289
01:44:02.929 --> 01:44:06.390
burdensome government relation or or regulation or authoritarian
1290
01:44:06.770 --> 01:44:07.270
policies.
1291
01:44:07.675 --> 01:44:10.415
And all of a sudden, those all become off ramps
1292
01:44:10.955 --> 01:44:13.135
for real goods and services. Right?
1293
01:44:16.370 --> 01:44:16.870
So
1294
01:44:17.170 --> 01:44:24.230
when you guys think about, like, merchant adoption, like, how like, is there anything like, how how can an average Bitcoiner
1295
01:44:25.875 --> 01:44:26.375
besides,
1296
01:44:26.835 --> 01:44:35.120
you know, if they actually run a business that, you know, sells goods and services and starts accepting Bitcoin in a sovereign way through something like BTCPay or SatSale?
1297
01:44:35.659 --> 01:44:36.800
Like, how can Bitcoiners
1298
01:44:37.260 --> 01:44:39.040
encourage, you know, this kind
1299
01:44:39.820 --> 01:44:44.155
of circular economy? Because I think the circular economy of Bitcoin will happen
1300
01:44:44.775 --> 01:44:45.275
eventually.
1301
01:44:46.695 --> 01:44:49.034
The question is, how do we accelerate it? Right?
1302
01:44:50.630 --> 01:44:53.450
Yeah. I I really like your idea of,
1303
01:44:54.310 --> 01:45:01.284
paying back friends in Bitcoin. So if they they buy you a drink or they buy you dinner, you can pay them back in sets or or vice versa.
1304
01:45:01.585 --> 01:45:04.324
I think that's a really, really good way to start just
1305
01:45:04.864 --> 01:45:09.739
getting people used to it, getting people on board. They get a a mobile wallet.
1306
01:45:10.360 --> 01:45:15.580
It's it's quite easy to do. You can you can teach them, like, show them show them the ropes.
1307
01:45:16.680 --> 01:45:18.715
I think that's a really good way to get started.
1308
01:45:20.054 --> 01:45:22.155
For for actual merchants who
1309
01:45:23.175 --> 01:45:24.315
are wanting to receive
1310
01:45:24.760 --> 01:45:28.699
for getting merchants to onboard with Bitcoin, I think it's a bit trickier.
1311
01:45:30.119 --> 01:45:33.179
Getting getting them set up in a way that works for their business
1312
01:45:33.615 --> 01:45:35.715
while keeping it sort of not too technical,
1313
01:45:36.815 --> 01:45:38.195
is a little bit tricky.
1314
01:45:38.975 --> 01:45:44.620
So so with that sale, something one of the the major motivators for me to build an Umbrel app,
1315
01:45:45.240 --> 01:45:52.965
was that it's sort of like a plug and play thing now that you could buy an umbrella or get one of the Raspberry Pi and install umbrella on it,
1316
01:45:53.745 --> 01:45:56.005
download Satsail from the app store,
1317
01:45:56.400 --> 01:46:03.860
and then you've essentially got a a point of sale ready to use in your in your biz like, in person point of sale,
1318
01:46:04.605 --> 01:46:06.465
ready ready to go for your business.
1319
01:46:07.804 --> 01:46:13.025
Because then you don't have the tour issue if it's on the local network. Right? Exactly. Exactly. That's alright.
1320
01:46:15.570 --> 01:46:16.550
Yeah. For me
1321
01:46:17.010 --> 01:46:18.550
for me, it's all about
1322
01:46:18.930 --> 01:46:22.865
local communities and, you know, having all of these people educating
1323
01:46:23.325 --> 01:46:26.865
merchants and us creating software resources,
1324
01:46:27.245 --> 01:46:29.185
documentation on how people can
1325
01:46:29.800 --> 01:46:31.180
basically take the initiative,
1326
01:46:31.800 --> 01:46:34.700
and change their local communities. Like, it started
1327
01:46:35.239 --> 01:46:39.465
very small in El Salvador and look at look at it now. I think that's a perfect
1328
01:46:40.105 --> 01:46:44.425
example of how, you know, impactful these small communities can be, and,
1329
01:46:45.145 --> 01:46:46.605
we should encourage, you know,
1330
01:46:47.250 --> 01:46:56.585
circular economy and people adopting Bitcoin on a local level. And I think that's that's the way to fight this. Because if we continue to,
1331
01:46:57.525 --> 01:47:03.625
do it in a way that we have all of these centralized services and that Bitcoin equals fiat, like,
1332
01:47:04.150 --> 01:47:14.094
we will get all these pain points and all these, problems. But once you start thinking about Bitcoin the way it's supposed to work without all these centralized parties,
1333
01:47:15.195 --> 01:47:16.495
lots of these complexities
1334
01:47:17.114 --> 01:47:17.614
actually,
1335
01:47:18.875 --> 01:47:20.014
don't exist anymore.
1336
01:47:20.740 --> 01:47:28.280
One thing I would, just thinking about now, talking about all the different topics like dispersing the funds and local economy and and tying the merchants
1337
01:47:28.785 --> 01:47:31.045
into this. You could even set up something where,
1338
01:47:31.425 --> 01:47:39.590
you you know, at at protests, I would imagine, you know, there's still a lot of people out there, like, you know, buying water for everyone and distributing that to the the protesters,
1339
01:47:39.969 --> 01:48:15.139
water, food, you know, utilities, things like that that they need on the ground floor. You could even see just a pop up of, like, various, like, different, you know, stores as individuals and, you know, you say, okay. You know, you can you can tie in something like BTC pay server or or set sail to merchant services. So it's like I'm actually, you know, I'm going to list a water bottle for sale or like 24 water bottles or like food and anyone that donates to that, you actually, as an individual or, you know, maybe a team of small individuals, you go out and you actually buy the utilities that someone had just donated. So you can list all these these different, you know, protester friendly,
1340
01:48:16.079 --> 01:48:31.045
stores that are all, you know, BTC pay servers or sat sales. And then You could even, like, go into, like, the local stores, like, in Ottawa for since we keep using as an example. I mean, Ottawa, there's all these local stores there that are obviously selling a bunch of things to protesters.
1341
01:48:32.659 --> 01:48:37.159
You could go there and try and onboard them to Bitcoin, be like, these protesters have Bitcoin.
1342
01:48:38.340 --> 01:48:40.360
I can get you set up, you know,
1343
01:48:40.695 --> 01:48:41.195
maybe
1344
01:48:41.575 --> 01:48:45.035
even charge them a little bit of money to to do it so it's not just completely,
1345
01:48:46.615 --> 01:48:47.015
charity,
1346
01:48:47.790 --> 01:49:00.955
and then get them set up and then be like, big corners can go there to spend their their money. Right? Exactly. Yeah. So if you don't get if you don't have a merchant set are that you can set up, even just like the approach of of, you know, being that middleman
1347
01:49:01.415 --> 01:49:04.795
to, like, you know, buy basic necessities like food and water.
1348
01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:13.695
I like that idea. And, I mean, another thing that's just very simple is, like, engage your local merchants. Right?
1349
01:49:14.094 --> 01:49:17.795
Regardless of protests, engage your local merchants. Be like, are you accepting Bitcoin yet?
1350
01:49:19.054 --> 01:49:23.074
You know, I might be a Bitcoiner, but I love cash for the privacy reasons.
1351
01:49:23.620 --> 01:49:24.120
And,
1352
01:49:25.060 --> 01:49:35.704
whenever I see a place that is credit card only, even if I see the sign, I always say to them, I always pull out my cash and make it as friction full as possible so that they see that I want to pay with cash. Right? And I think,
1353
01:49:36.644 --> 01:49:47.889
you can do that in a in a friendly but an insistent way then maybe you should start accepting Bitcoin. And here's the ways you can start accepting Bitcoin. Here's some guides. You know, I can help get you set up,
1354
01:49:49.875 --> 01:49:55.175
and you get to save on credit card fees. It's a very obvious selling point. You have no chargeback risk.
1355
01:49:55.635 --> 01:50:03.449
Yeah. And that's why I like something, you know, what what what Michael's doing with Oshie, down in Austin and and, you know, traveling around the United States
1356
01:50:03.829 --> 01:50:07.610
literally trying to do that and onboard business and try to create, like, an evangelist
1357
01:50:08.295 --> 01:50:16.955
sort of network where, it's not just him doing it, but other people as well trying to onboard onboard merchants and get sats back even as a result. So,
1358
01:50:17.580 --> 01:50:30.205
yeah, even as something simple as saying, you know, walking into a store and saying, you know, immediately saying, do you accept Bitcoin? Can can go a long way. And eventually, if enough people are doing that, you know, maybe maybe it's something to look into.
1359
01:50:31.465 --> 01:50:33.485
Yeah. I I 100% agree.
1360
01:50:33.945 --> 01:50:36.270
So actually, someone did a study on,
1361
01:50:37.610 --> 01:50:44.865
what drives Bitcoin adoption by retailers. And it's a few years old, so it's pretty out of date. Like, I think it was 2016 data or something.
1362
01:50:46.705 --> 01:50:51.685
But the top two reasons for crypto acceptance or Bitcoin acceptance was,
1363
01:50:52.465 --> 01:50:56.910
that the cuss 1, that the customers ask for it, and 2, that,
1364
01:50:58.330 --> 01:51:02.085
them accepting Bitcoin will bring in extra customers. And I think,
1365
01:51:02.565 --> 01:51:12.130
both of those are quite easy to convey if you if you if you ask, do you accept Bitcoin? Or if you make it if you make it known that there are a whole bunch of Bitcoiners wanting to spend their Bitcoin,
1366
01:51:12.590 --> 01:51:15.570
then I think that's a really big motivation for the merchant.
1367
01:51:16.430 --> 01:51:18.610
I mean, you can piggyback it off of,
1368
01:51:19.375 --> 01:51:21.074
this, like, growing, blossoming
1369
01:51:21.535 --> 01:51:23.074
global meetup community
1370
01:51:23.375 --> 01:51:26.915
that is happening. Right? Like, there's meetups all around the world, Bitcoin meetups.
1371
01:51:28.099 --> 01:51:29.159
You have a
1372
01:51:30.980 --> 01:51:34.440
a a condensed amount of individuals that are ideologically motivated.
1373
01:51:35.594 --> 01:51:40.574
And I would say to meet up organizers that, like, one thing that you can do that is very actionable
1374
01:51:41.275 --> 01:51:52.719
is encourage local businesses to accept Bitcoin. And then once they do start accepting Bitcoin and you help them accept Bitcoin and and I'm it needs to be clear here in a sovereign way because, like, there was a movement
1375
01:51:53.165 --> 01:51:58.625
in 2013 where everyone was just trying to get them on to bid pay. It was a centralized service. They were auto selling to fiat.
1376
01:51:59.005 --> 01:52:03.990
You get them on in a sovereign way, and then you give them basically what amounts to free advertising at your meetup.
1377
01:52:04.450 --> 01:52:06.870
You don't even have to you know, I I've seen with,
1378
01:52:08.574 --> 01:52:09.955
like, OC Bitcorners,
1379
01:52:11.135 --> 01:52:11.875
in California,
1380
01:52:12.255 --> 01:52:18.599
which, by the way, if you're a bit cornered in California, I don't know how you circle that square, but that's besides the point.
1381
01:52:18.900 --> 01:52:25.735
There's some great Bitcoiners over there. They actually host their meetups at the different, like, restaurants and bars that
1382
01:52:26.215 --> 01:52:31.114
decide to accept Bitcoin. But you don't even have to do that. You can just be like, you know, this great establishment
1383
01:52:31.494 --> 01:52:36.489
that is at this location started accepting Bitcoin, and you just mentioned it at your meetup. It's extremely powerful.
1384
01:52:38.230 --> 01:52:38.809
A 100%.
1385
01:52:40.309 --> 01:52:43.769
Yeah. In, in the Australian Bitcoin meetups,
1386
01:52:44.150 --> 01:52:48.715
so the one in Melbourne, we we go to a place that accepts Bitcoin at a bar.
1387
01:52:49.895 --> 01:53:00.740
And, actually, we've been to other places before, and you often find if you offer to pay the bartender in Bitcoin, and and you show them to download a a mobile wallet, and you give them a pretty decent tip,
1388
01:53:01.120 --> 01:53:02.320
which by the way tips,
1389
01:53:02.880 --> 01:53:06.784
never happen in Australia. It's not a not a common thing. It's,
1390
01:53:07.485 --> 01:53:14.600
they love it. They, I've seen, some bartenders bouncing off the walls. They've got, like, $300 in Bitcoin by the end of the night.
1391
01:53:15.140 --> 01:53:19.480
Bartenders are the easiest to onboard, especially, like, 2 hours into being at the bar.
1392
01:53:21.915 --> 01:53:26.095
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a really good start. We can run protests off of
1393
01:53:27.040 --> 01:53:29.739
of beer and beer. Yeah.
1394
01:53:30.080 --> 01:53:34.739
But yeah. No. I do definitely agree. I've onboarded a a bunch of bartenders myself.
1395
01:53:36.425 --> 01:53:41.165
So, I mean, we're an hour and 50 minutes in. We're probably gonna wrap it up kinda soon.
1396
01:53:42.265 --> 01:53:43.165
But we we,
1397
01:53:43.780 --> 01:53:48.280
usually, I like to, like, leave, you know, the more controversial nuanced topics
1398
01:53:48.659 --> 01:53:51.960
towards the end because usually only the rider dies get to this point.
1399
01:53:53.865 --> 01:53:57.885
I'm curious on your guys' opinion. So, I mean, we go through all of these different trade offs,
1400
01:53:58.585 --> 01:54:00.925
and, you know, we're talking about running,
1401
01:54:02.230 --> 01:54:09.450
you know, running an always on service on a on a virtual private server that is, you know, hosted in the cloud that usually requires KYC.
1402
01:54:10.095 --> 01:54:17.875
That's one of the reasons why I really like Voltage is because they don't require KYC. You just pay with Bitcoin. But I I do think, eventually, they might have to start requiring KYC.
1403
01:54:18.340 --> 01:54:22.920
You know, Luna Node is a recommended one because their KYC is light, but they still require a phone number.
1404
01:54:23.860 --> 01:54:26.519
I do like I will always shill silent.link
1405
01:54:26.980 --> 01:54:29.355
where you can get a burner phone number,
1406
01:54:29.855 --> 01:54:32.515
and pay with Bitcoin and just download it as an eSIM,
1407
01:54:33.455 --> 01:54:37.075
or, alternatively, you know, you go and pay cash to get one.
1408
01:54:39.360 --> 01:54:48.485
So with all these different trade offs, and we're talking about, like, you know, you need to do you should do coin control afterwards, and and you should do coin join. And we're talking about in a
1409
01:54:48.945 --> 01:54:53.205
situation where you have, like, a state level actor. You have, you know, the Canadian government,
1410
01:54:54.065 --> 01:54:57.239
actually going out there and doing surveillance and doing chain
1411
01:54:58.420 --> 01:54:58.920
surveillance
1412
01:55:00.099 --> 01:55:01.480
and blacklisting addresses,
1413
01:55:03.435 --> 01:55:07.055
I'm gonna say a very controversial thing right now. Do you think
1414
01:55:08.075 --> 01:55:11.535
I was on your guys' opinion. Like, to to me, in that kind of situation,
1415
01:55:13.020 --> 01:55:13.840
it seems
1416
01:55:14.300 --> 01:55:17.360
way better in terms of a
1417
01:55:18.460 --> 01:55:19.520
trade off balance
1418
01:55:20.060 --> 01:55:20.560
to
1419
01:55:21.255 --> 01:55:22.315
accept Monero
1420
01:55:22.935 --> 01:55:28.955
as your donation and then swap into Bitcoin. Like, if you're gonna keep savings, you swap into Bitcoin.
1421
01:55:29.430 --> 01:55:30.410
But for the actual
1422
01:55:30.870 --> 01:55:33.690
donation collection and then spending of it,
1423
01:55:34.470 --> 01:55:36.330
you accept Monero. Am I
1424
01:55:36.875 --> 01:55:42.414
off base here, or is that something that people should be considering in, like, a state level type of situation?
1425
01:55:43.434 --> 01:55:47.840
Yeah. I think it's definitely preferable to using a single reused address.
1426
01:55:49.420 --> 01:55:54.425
And, yeah, depending on how much privacy you need, it might be the best,
1427
01:55:54.804 --> 01:55:55.304
option.
1428
01:55:57.684 --> 01:55:58.184
Yeah.
1429
01:55:58.565 --> 01:56:03.860
I I I don't I don't have any big problems in there. I think it's pretty cool. The cryptography is pretty awesome.
1430
01:56:05.280 --> 01:56:10.340
Pretty cool community too. Good values. So, yeah, no issues there for me.
1431
01:56:13.155 --> 01:56:13.655
I'm
1432
01:56:14.275 --> 01:56:17.335
still I'm still in shock. How dare you, Odell people.
1433
01:56:20.620 --> 01:56:22.880
Tony's giving me a look. What are your thoughts, Tony?
1434
01:56:23.340 --> 01:56:24.239
Yeah. I mean,
1435
01:56:25.420 --> 01:56:43.150
I don't know. If if you can do something that's just as simple as posting an address and receiving privacy. But, I mean, there there are and I'm talking about a world where BIP 47 has been adopted by wallets yet. Right? This is, like, one of the reasons why I want BIP 47 to be adopted. But even in a world where BIP 47 is adopted, you're still doing coin control afterwards.
1436
01:56:43.610 --> 01:56:44.750
Right. And and,
1437
01:56:45.215 --> 01:57:14.180
I mean, I I still think about the UX issues, and and, you know, we talk about all the complexities of even just using Bitcoin itself, like, today, less this whole 2 hours, the complexities of receiving Bitcoin. And now we're now we're throwing like, sure. Like, from a privacy perspective, you know, there's a lot of great properties there, but now we're throwing the UX issue. Like, okay. Let's explain, you know, Monero. Let's explain how to do swaps. Let's explain how to do trustless swaps. Let's explain. Well, you might have to do trustless swaps in that situation. You post, like, a Monero address, and then you just go to sideship.ai,
1438
01:57:14.720 --> 01:57:24.244
and you just swap it into Bitcoin. True. Okay. But still there there are, you know, there's still a little bit of trade off of like explaining that to people as well in addition to all the other,
1439
01:57:24.570 --> 01:57:25.550
you know, Bitcoin
1440
01:57:26.409 --> 01:57:29.070
caveats that that we throw out there. There's,
1441
01:57:29.449 --> 01:57:36.925
and there could be timing analysis, there can be other things, you know, associated with these swaps. So like that's that's my only thing is from, like, a a UX
1442
01:57:38.345 --> 01:57:44.610
perspective, I guess. I think, by the way, to people watching the video, I'm pretty sure mem pulled that spaces down. I tried to
1443
01:57:46.110 --> 01:57:48.210
Rod, you wanna check to see if it's down?
1444
01:57:49.390 --> 01:57:51.250
It looks like it's down on my side.
1445
01:57:51.585 --> 01:57:52.565
It's up on your
1446
01:57:53.105 --> 01:57:53.765
side? Weird.
1447
01:57:56.465 --> 01:57:58.885
Well, there's my controversial thought for the day.
1448
01:57:59.210 --> 01:58:06.750
Yeah. I I feel like it's I it's definitely a conversation that should be had in this particular situation. I mean, if you if you talk about, like, these actual specific,
1449
01:58:07.785 --> 01:58:09.405
this this most recent fundraise,
1450
01:58:10.585 --> 01:58:11.885
if they had done that,
1451
01:58:13.145 --> 01:58:17.780
they'd be in a way better situation right now. And they could still hold Bitcoin at the end of the day.
1452
01:58:18.159 --> 01:58:22.179
Would they though? Because they they are still, like, out there,
1453
01:58:22.639 --> 01:58:28.735
saying, you know, we are the like, 3 to, you know, 5 individuals, like, you know, that are crowdfunding
1454
01:58:29.035 --> 01:58:32.495
for, you know, the truckers themselves. So, like, they will still be
1455
01:58:33.080 --> 01:58:33.580
the,
1456
01:58:34.119 --> 01:58:50.445
custodians in a way. Like sure it'll help like the government can't come in and say, okay, we're gonna blacklist these addresses and and everything like that. It helps on that side, but they're still like, you know, they're still single points of failure here that they can they can target. If they know who those, you know, 3 to 5 individuals are,
1457
01:58:50.980 --> 01:59:15.650
they'll still come attack you regardless. Maybe they don't know But the point is you wouldn't need to have 3 to 5 individuals doing it. Right? Like, individual truckers could post it, and then they could swap into Bitcoin. Right. But they don't download a mobile wallet. They could post it. You wouldn't know how many funds went to the address. You wouldn't know where they sent it afterwards. But we don't even we don't even see them doing the very basic thing today of just reusing an address. So, like, I don't know if we can't even get people to reuse a Bitcoin address.
1458
01:59:16.110 --> 01:59:25.675
Yeah. Even if we say it's, like, not the most, you know, private way, well, then then how are we gonna, like, get them to reuse something that they've, like, never in their life have heard of before?
1459
01:59:26.140 --> 01:59:36.355
Like, at least most people have heard Bitcoin, I think, at this point now. Right. That is the big the biggest the biggest trade off is that I think you you lose a donation pool. Right? Like, you have less
1460
01:59:36.975 --> 01:59:44.515
you have less people willing to donate to you because they they don't they don't have Monero to donate. Right? They have Bitcoin that they wanna donate.
1461
01:59:45.850 --> 01:59:46.350
Yeah.
1462
01:59:48.170 --> 02:00:04.390
Yeah. And and it could be hard to convince them to, swap it back into Bitcoin once they've received the Monero. It might be Oh, someone with more converse controversial hate than me. It'll it'll just be like another step. You don't have to go to side shift dotai or and then there might be some significant
1463
02:00:05.170 --> 02:00:06.390
fee there as well.
1464
02:00:07.250 --> 02:00:09.350
Yeah. I think I think, we should definitely
1465
02:00:10.094 --> 02:00:15.315
try and build the software that makes this possible to to raise money using Bitcoin.
1466
02:00:16.015 --> 02:00:17.715
But, yeah, maybe in some circumstances,
1467
02:00:18.015 --> 02:00:25.650
if there's no other option, then Monero might be your your best choice if if, you've got a pretty pretty strong adversary who's
1468
02:00:26.110 --> 02:00:27.250
watching very closely.
1469
02:00:30.765 --> 02:00:37.210
Okay. Well, I'm glad that I at least brought it up. I think it's, you know, something that we should be willing to talk about without canceling people,
1470
02:00:37.770 --> 02:00:38.650
and we'll see what happens.
1471
02:00:40.650 --> 02:00:48.445
You know Pavel's not gonna be canceled because he just does not wanna talk about anything, I guess. When, when Monero fork for BTC pay server?
1472
02:00:49.065 --> 02:00:53.805
Well, I mean, Monero is, like, completely different than Bitcoin from a code base, so that's pretty difficult.
1473
02:00:54.880 --> 02:00:55.360
But, anyways
1474
02:00:55.920 --> 02:00:56.420
Well,
1475
02:00:56.960 --> 02:00:58.740
there is a community docker,
1476
02:00:59.280 --> 02:01:03.620
plugin which allows you to accept Monero on BTC based servers. So
1477
02:01:04.145 --> 02:01:06.885
the I guess we we continue with controversy.
1478
02:01:07.185 --> 02:01:10.725
So cancel BTC based server. Cancel, they'll cancel Palonext.
1479
02:01:11.370 --> 02:01:13.450
And make sure you cancel, Tony, while you're at it.
1480
02:01:13.770 --> 02:01:20.510
Guys so, I mean, I think this was a great conversation. I think it'll be very helpful for people, especially in adversarial environments who are trying to
1481
02:01:21.055 --> 02:01:23.715
raise money and getting, you know, financially blockaded.
1482
02:01:26.015 --> 02:01:28.275
I usually like to end it with final thoughts.
1483
02:01:29.855 --> 02:01:30.095
So
1484
02:01:31.199 --> 02:01:33.600
but with you guys specifically, I mean, you both,
1485
02:01:34.080 --> 02:01:40.355
are heavily involved with these open source projects. Make sure you let people know how they can contribute, whether that's through donations
1486
02:01:40.735 --> 02:01:46.355
or actually, you know, contributing to open source work, with your projects. So we'll start. Final thoughts.
1487
02:01:47.135 --> 02:01:48.355
Pavel, final thoughts.
1488
02:01:49.310 --> 02:01:54.290
Sure. Final thoughts if you wish to contribute to an open source project, btcpayserver.org.
1489
02:01:55.550 --> 02:01:57.490
We currently need a lot of people,
1490
02:01:58.375 --> 02:02:01.034
not only developers. We need help with our documentation,
1491
02:02:01.494 --> 02:02:13.560
content, and things like that. So if you have any skill, feel free to hit me up on Twitter at pavlonex, and I will happily onboard you. Also, bitcoin dot design for those interested in design
1492
02:02:13.940 --> 02:02:14.680
and UX.
1493
02:02:15.335 --> 02:02:21.255
We also need, quite a lot of contributors there. So yeah. Thanks, Pavel. And I I would say that,
1494
02:02:22.054 --> 02:02:31.710
I I think it's important to realize that, you know, BTCPay is a massive project, and it's not just programmers that you're looking for. Right? It's people doing documentation, design, all these sorts of things.
1495
02:02:32.250 --> 02:02:33.390
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
1496
02:02:34.535 --> 02:02:37.815
Thank you, Pavel. I I really appreciate your time, and thank you for,
1497
02:02:38.295 --> 02:02:42.235
you know, going longer than you expected to go. It is it is truly appreciated.
1498
02:02:43.770 --> 02:02:44.910
Nick, final thoughts.
1499
02:02:46.010 --> 02:02:47.950
Yeah. So you can find satsale,
1500
02:02:49.050 --> 02:02:49.950
or satsale.org,
1501
02:02:50.490 --> 02:02:52.190
and there's a link to the GitHub.
1502
02:02:53.385 --> 02:02:55.085
I've got there's not many contributors
1503
02:02:55.465 --> 02:02:56.525
just yet. It's,
1504
02:02:57.225 --> 02:03:02.440
still pretty small project, but I like to think it's a very small code base and very accessible,
1505
02:03:03.300 --> 02:03:07.880
and especially because it's written in Python, so it's quite accessible to junior developers especially.
1506
02:03:09.275 --> 02:03:15.755
And so I'm actually currently getting some Satsale t shirts printed, and I'll be sending those out to all,
1507
02:03:16.155 --> 02:03:17.295
substantial contributors,
1508
02:03:18.700 --> 02:03:20.160
past and present. And
1509
02:03:20.620 --> 02:03:28.255
if you if you wanna support that sale, you can donate on the website as well, and I'll be using that money to, to to get some shirts printed.
1510
02:03:30.075 --> 02:03:30.575
Yeah.
1511
02:03:30.955 --> 02:03:35.695
And actually, could I plug, one other thing I've been working on lately? Go, go, go away.
1512
02:03:36.139 --> 02:03:37.280
Thank you. Thank you.
1513
02:03:37.739 --> 02:03:38.239
So
1514
02:03:38.699 --> 02:03:39.760
gun dot fun.
1515
02:03:40.060 --> 02:03:42.480
Gun is a command line Bitcoin wallet,
1516
02:03:43.020 --> 02:03:46.425
and it supports peer to peer betting using bit Bitcoin.
1517
02:03:47.605 --> 02:03:49.784
It it's written in Rust. It uses BDK.
1518
02:03:50.565 --> 02:03:55.050
It's really easy to set up with a cold card wallet. So I've been working on that with,
1519
02:03:55.590 --> 02:03:57.449
Lloyd LL Fawn on GitHub.
1520
02:03:58.469 --> 02:04:00.889
And, yeah, I think Lloyd's gonna be making some,
1521
02:04:01.670 --> 02:04:03.605
some bets tonight or tomorrow.
1522
02:04:04.144 --> 02:04:12.690
So we've got a we've got a lot of bets coming in to try and onboard new users, and I think some of them will have some pretty good odds. So keep an eye out for that.
1523
02:04:13.710 --> 02:04:17.730
Awesome. I was not aware of that project. I I look forward to diving into it.
1524
02:04:18.635 --> 02:04:25.295
Thank you, Nick. I really do appreciate all the work you do, and I appreciate you coming on the show and and discussing this all with the freaks.
1525
02:04:26.155 --> 02:04:27.454
Tell me, ton of thoughts.
1526
02:04:28.369 --> 02:04:31.429
Yeah. No. Awesome discussion, guys. Really appreciate,
1527
02:04:31.969 --> 02:04:32.770
us having this.
1528
02:04:33.570 --> 02:04:37.405
You know, not only, you know, if you're out there listening, like, you know, contributing to these projects,
1529
02:04:37.804 --> 02:05:10.760
you know, from a technical standpoint or, like, documentation, whatever it is, but also, you know, donation donating is, like, such an important topic too. Like, you're really changing lives out there. So, yeah, we all wanna hold our Bitcoin and never spend it. Right? But there's, like, people out there that need this. And and, you know, even if we're, like, you know, doting into causes and, you know, they may not exactly know how to distribute the funds very properly or, like, or what to do afterwards, like, you know, go out there and and and do it. Don't be don't be too stingy out there. Like, you you know, we do try you know, we are trying to change the world out there. So, you know, be the change you seek. But
1530
02:05:11.305 --> 02:05:19.885
The support goes a really long way. Any donation really, really matters a lot. It allows us to spend more of our time on these things that we really think are important.
1531
02:05:21.010 --> 02:05:29.190
And, yeah, download download Satel. Get your hands dirty. Give it a try. Try connecting to your Bitcoin node. I think you'll you'll find it pretty fun.
1532
02:05:29.755 --> 02:05:30.255
Awesome.
1533
02:05:31.195 --> 02:05:34.235
Thank you, guys. And I'll just echo what what Tony said.
1534
02:05:35.675 --> 02:05:37.295
Your your work is really appreciated,
1535
02:05:37.595 --> 02:05:42.710
not just on the facilitating donations front because I think that is a major use case that Bitcoin,
1536
02:05:43.730 --> 02:05:44.469
can fix,
1537
02:05:45.330 --> 02:05:48.675
and that will fix, but we, you know, we need to make it easier.
1538
02:05:49.055 --> 02:05:55.750
And you guys have made it significantly easier than it was, you know, just 2, 3 years ago, but I think we can go above and beyond that.
1539
02:05:56.550 --> 02:06:04.090
And I do appreciate all the work you do there, but also in onboarding merchants and being able to onboard them in a sovereign way without centralized third parties
1540
02:06:04.405 --> 02:06:05.785
and without address reuse,
1541
02:06:06.165 --> 02:06:06.745
so that
1542
02:06:07.125 --> 02:06:17.270
privacy best practices are taken into account is absolutely massive. It feels like we actually have a foundation where we start trying to build a circular economy rather than building on quicksand using something like BitPay or OpenNode.
1543
02:06:19.545 --> 02:06:22.284
With all that said, Breaks, next week,
1544
02:06:22.985 --> 02:06:24.764
dispatch will not be happening.
1545
02:06:25.224 --> 02:06:26.764
I need a little bit of a vacation.
1546
02:06:28.110 --> 02:06:29.390
We are coming back,
1547
02:06:29.870 --> 02:06:30.770
March 8th.
1548
02:06:31.470 --> 02:06:35.090
I have a great crew. I have Brother Rabbit, Goro Moneta Moneta
1549
02:06:35.390 --> 02:06:35.890
from
1550
02:06:37.295 --> 02:06:39.315
Ronin Dojo, Rod and Weil,
1551
02:06:39.935 --> 02:06:44.915
maybe a couple other people, and we're gonna be talking about distant tech and privacy in relation to Bitcoin.
1552
02:06:45.730 --> 02:06:48.390
So stay tuned for that. That should be a lot of fun.
1553
02:06:48.850 --> 02:06:51.430
I think our our YouTube now is at 2 strikes.
1554
02:06:51.810 --> 02:06:53.830
Marty's not gonna stop doing controversial
1555
02:06:56.135 --> 02:07:00.235
controversial interviews, so we will probably get banned there pretty soon.
1556
02:07:01.815 --> 02:07:02.315
So,
1557
02:07:03.060 --> 02:07:05.880
if if you wanna use a mainstream platform to watch,
1558
02:07:06.660 --> 02:07:07.880
make sure you go to twitch.tv/sil
1559
02:07:09.060 --> 02:07:12.695
dispatch and press subscribe there. We will continue to broadcast there.
1560
02:07:13.475 --> 02:07:15.975
And, also, you can always watch it at bitcointv.com.
1561
02:07:16.595 --> 02:07:18.535
All of our archives are there, and
1562
02:07:19.350 --> 02:07:22.170
the live shows do get streamed there. It doesn't have
1563
02:07:24.310 --> 02:07:29.175
I I think you can subscribe there, but, you basically have to have your own peer 2 instance. So,
1564
02:07:29.895 --> 02:07:34.395
it doesn't really give you, like, a notification when we go live. But if you are in the live chat
1565
02:07:34.855 --> 02:07:40.980
or on Twitter, I notify people, what time we're going live, and it is always on Tuesdays unless I say otherwise.
1566
02:07:41.600 --> 02:07:44.500
So don't forget to join the live chat. If you go to sidlaldisbatch.com
1567
02:07:44.960 --> 02:07:46.175
and click sidlildot chat,
1568
02:07:46.574 --> 02:07:48.195
you can join the live chat.
1569
02:07:49.054 --> 02:07:50.275
With all that said,
1570
02:07:50.735 --> 02:07:52.175
I wanna thank you guys.
1571
02:07:52.574 --> 02:07:55.395
Thank you for joining us. I wanna thank the freaks for joining us.
1572
02:07:56.370 --> 02:07:58.390
Cheers, and keep up the great work. Thank you.
1573
02:07:59.810 --> 02:08:00.710
Thanks, guys.
1574
02:08:02.210 --> 02:08:02.950
Thank you.
1575
02:12:08.344 --> 02:12:10.284
Love you, freaks. Hope you found that conversation,
1576
02:12:12.264 --> 02:12:15.840
as awesome as I found it, and I hope you found some use out of it.
1577
02:12:16.780 --> 02:12:19.680
And, just keep learning, keep educating yourself.
1578
02:12:20.140 --> 02:12:21.360
Take personal responsibility,
1579
02:12:22.005 --> 02:12:23.224
and improve your situation.
1580
02:12:23.525 --> 02:12:26.985
Be humble enough to realize you do not know everything, neither do I.
1581
02:12:28.645 --> 02:12:34.040
Together, you know, we'll we'll be better for it. I love you all. Do rabbit hole recap on Thursday,
1582
02:12:35.140 --> 02:12:38.600
from my vacation because we never skip rabbit hole recap.
1583
02:12:38.945 --> 02:12:41.685
Then I'll do rabbit hole recap again next Thursday
1584
02:12:42.225 --> 02:12:48.325
from vacation because we never skip rabbit hole recap, but I am skipping dispatch, and I will see you back for dispatch on 8th.
1585
02:12:48.690 --> 02:12:50.949
Appreciate you all. Stay on the stack sets.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:28:45 PM
Duration: 7973.146
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.799 --> 00:00:18.175
2
00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:20.540
strikes me as a very big deal.
3
00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:33.434
4
00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.880
in control of your Bitcoin
5
00:00:36.260 --> 00:00:45.115
by holding your own private keys, which is the beauty and the importance of Bitcoin as a monetary revolution. It allows you to actually control your money. It is a digital
6
00:00:45.655 --> 00:00:53.640
bearer instrument. It is digital cash. So as long as people are taking control of their own private keys, it's it's significantly harder to
7
00:00:54.020 --> 00:00:57.399
stop the spread of Bitcoin and prevent people from sending transactions.
8
00:00:58.100 --> 00:01:03.405
9
00:01:03.865 --> 00:01:05.725
is still in place that you can
10
00:01:06.665 --> 00:01:14.380
operate transactionally without government oversight. How complicated is it not to use an exchange but to hold the keys for yourself? Would the average person
11
00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:15.979
do something like that?
12
00:01:17.645 --> 00:01:21.424
13
00:01:21.884 --> 00:01:37.735
whether it be Blue Wallet, Green Wallet. You can find those in your iOS stores or Android apps. These are open source wallets that anybody can download and easily create private keys and their their Bitcoin from an exchange directly to a wallet. They can back up their wallet with 12 words
14
00:01:38.115 --> 00:01:47.850
that if they were able to memorize them, theoretically, they can walk around with their Bitcoin in their heads. So it's it's very simple to to access the software that enables you to take control
15
00:01:48.310 --> 00:01:51.610
of your of your Bitcoin and and actually custody it yourself.
16
00:01:52.295 --> 00:02:02.970
17
00:02:04.630 --> 00:02:07.210
18
00:02:07.575 --> 00:02:09.515
the actions by the Canadian government,
19
00:02:09.895 --> 00:02:12.635
wake people up. Like, oh, if they can do this to our bank accounts,
20
00:02:13.735 --> 00:02:14.635
for protesting
21
00:02:15.230 --> 00:02:17.730
about civil liberties. Like, how how far
22
00:02:18.350 --> 00:02:21.250
will will they go to to stop us from transacting,
23
00:02:22.430 --> 00:02:28.015
using the traditional system. And so I think over the last few weeks, people are really beginning to recognize the beauty,
24
00:02:28.474 --> 00:02:37.390
of Bitcoin and the utility it provides as a distributed network that nobody can control as long as you're controlling your own Bitcoin and you have those words written down secured,
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you
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you have the the freedom to control your money.
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it turns out the core freedom.
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Marty Bent, thanks so much for that explanation. Good to see you.
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It's your boy, Odell, here for Citadel dispatch 57.
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Citadel dispatch is the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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If you're used to listening and watching us
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on YouTube,
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Marty had a controversial doctor on, so we are suspended from streaming to YouTube.
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So if you're watching this on, Twitter and you're looking for a better platform to watch it, you can go to twitch.tv/citaldispatch,
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or you can go to our bitcoin tv.com channel.
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It's streaming from both of those places.
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As always, I wanna thank,
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the many freaks who continue to support the show.
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Dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.
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Your support keeps us purely focused on actual Bitcoin discussion, and I really do appreciate it.
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The easiest way to support the show is going to citadel dispatch.com/contribute.
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We have a BTC pay server set up. You can contribute via lightning or on chain.
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I also have a BIP 47 payment code there.
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The most common I mean, the only way to send to that right now is samurai wallet, but, hopefully, in the future, looks like we're gonna get some more BIP 47 support, so other wallets will be able to send to that. That is on chain.
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Another way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps.
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My two favorite are Breezewallet
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and Fountain Podcasts. They work like regular podcast apps.
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You
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download the app.
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You load it up with sats.
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You search Siddle Dispatch, press the subscribe button, and then you can pick how many sats per minute you think, dispatch is worth. And then as you're listening, it'll stream sats, directly to my node.
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You can also support the show via merch. We got our dispatch hat, cildispatch.com/stack.
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And we have other partners that are providing merch,
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other freaks,
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which is which is greatly appreciated, including Quinsolo and BTC Pens. There's a flask up there, and
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there's a pin and a magnet. Or maybe there's just a magnet for sale now. Maybe BTC pins, that was a limited time only on the pins.
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Anyway, we have a really important conversation today, very topical.
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It's Bitcoin crowdfunding and receiving donations,
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ideally with privacy best practices followed.
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We're gonna try and model this conversation
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off of the beginner's guide I did with
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Bitcoin q and a. So we're gonna start it with a, basically,
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a
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clear, concise way of if you wanna start accepting Bitcoin donations or do a crowd fund, what is the best way for you to do it? And then from there, we're gonna go into deeper conversation.
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As always, you can join the live chat. The easiest way to get to that is citadel dispatch.com, and then clicking that Citadel chat link and then following the instructions. It's hosted on Matrix.
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Even when the show is not going on, we have
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over 800 Bitcoiners in that room now, and there's just a lot of actionable Bitcoin discussion that happens throughout,
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the week. So consider joining us there. It is
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quickly becoming my preferred platform over Twitter
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for actual Bitcoin discussion.
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So with all that said, I got some great guests for this topic.
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The first guest is, Tony, who's joining for maybe the 5th time on dispatch. He's live in person at the studio with me. How's it going, Tony? It's good. Good to be here.
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have CoinJoiner. We have Nick, who's the lead maintainer of SatSale,
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a lesser known
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So, I mean,
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when we start here, we have,
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obviously,
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the elephant in the room is,
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the Canadian government blocked,
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traditional financial support,
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crowdfunding platforms such as GoFundMe and GiveSendGo,
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for the Canadian freedom protests that have been happening.
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And a lot of people have moved over to Bitcoin. And there's a there was specifically one major fundraiser
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that was using Tali coin,
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which is
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a a centralized platform that allows you to do self custody. So you don't host the whole thing yourself,
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but you're able to actually hold your own keys and accept directly to your lightning node.
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That is maintained by DJ Booth.
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Unfortunately, given, you know, government pressure and whatnot, he wants to lay low. He was invited,
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to join us as were other people that were involved, in that
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raise.
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But I wanted to where I like, where do you guys think is the best place to start? If someone is
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trying to,
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is is trying to
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raise Bitcoin,
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for a cause, whether that's donations or whether that's a crowdfunding type of situation.
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What are some things that they should be considering before they even begin that process?
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which is sort of you see quite a lot is they post a Bitcoin address sort of in their bio or like the footer of their website.
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And and the consideration you should really think about there long and hard is,
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what privacy you're giving away when you when you post that address publicly and you reuse it for all your donors.
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So I'm sure we'll get into sort of the consequences of
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into whatever
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medium you want to publicly post that in. It could be, you know, Twitter. It could be Facebook. It could be your website.
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What is the downside of that, and what should people be considering there?
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basically, everyone can go and look that address up in a block explorer. So, like, menpool.space
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or,
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any other block explorer. And they can go and look at all the donations that have you you've received,
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and
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they can so they can see, that that you've got you've received, like, 2 Bitcoin donations.
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And they can also, like,
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do some sort of analytics on that and just try and figure out maybe who donated
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or that could link,
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your donors,
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to that donation,
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fundraising.
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And the other thing is that
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when you go to spend that money,
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now those that those UTXOs
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have sort of been
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publicly linked to your identity.
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So
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you're receiving all this Bitcoin in the address, and everyone knows
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that that address belongs to you because you posted it on your website or on your Twitter.
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So people can sort of follow what you do with that money once you've raised it.
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me, just naming it an address is a little bit of an UX problem because people
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know that they have single email. They have address where they live. So it's like an an unique identifier that they use to receive donations. So
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addresses, I like to tinker them as invoices. You
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generate an each invoices
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invoice when you are getting paid,
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traditionally. So if we were to call address,
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payment request in a way or an invoice, I think
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It could help people understand that they shouldn't be,
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reusing addresses because that's one of the basic
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privacy new news as Nick explained.
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So I I think it can also be, you know, then just just the naming problem because people you know, I generated an address, and now I can put it in. As you mentioned, traditionally, they've been putting it everywhere, and it is so easy to
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you know, be able to think Bitcoin is, you know, anonymous, but it's really not. And it's very easy to see through blockchain what's going on, who donated, and you
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can very easily, basically,
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the an deanonymize the the
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donors and people who, you know, are supporting your cause, which is exactly what happened with the Canadian Truckers. Right? Right. So you wanna talk about what happened with their fixed address
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like, very closely, but
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on
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most basic level from what I understood,
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they've been reusing
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address in order to, receive
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payments in Bitcoin through the from their donors. So,
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basically, Canadian government and please correct me if I'm wrong because I've been just following this on Twitter. So, Canadian government basically blacklisted those addresses, and now they cannot use those funds. Am I am I right? Or is Yeah. So they they they reused an address or, I guess, they reused an invoice if we're gonna go by your nomenclature.
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or if it's a local block explorer that you're running with your own node,
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which could also be mempool,
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they or, like, a block stream dot info. You put it in there, and you could see all donations. Now
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what happens in that situation? 2 things happen. First of all,
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your transactions after,
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donations are received. What you do with that money afterwards,
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can be tracked.
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And it's important to realize that
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even if something's not being actively tracked, the blockchain is forever. This ledger of transactions that we have of Bitcoin,
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if we are correct, will outlive all of us,
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so it can be used in the future against you. But not only can future transactions be tracked,
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it can also be used to determine donors.
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One of the traditional financial
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tools that was used,
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before the ban came into place was this website called GiveSendGo,
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and they required KYC to donate,
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using fiat. And what happened was they got hacked, they were storing that information insecurely,
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and now there's a list of donors out there,
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that are being doxxed,
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that are being harassed, that are being there's articles being written about them. These people are in your community. They're supporting,
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these protesters. You should cancel them. So it exposes the donators, and it also exposes,
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the people or
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the flow of funds after the fact.
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Now the Canadian government,
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in this specific case
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chose to basically issue a quiet blacklist order,
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alongside
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a freeze order that was a court order that was public.
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The blacklist order went out to regulated services,
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in Canada, regulated Bitcoin services in Canada. It said if if you interact,
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with this address or
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a derivative address, so an address that comes after it,
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please report all that information to us, you know, the identity of the people that interacted with it, what they're doing with it.
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So they don't have and, by the way, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that this opening clip that we had on CIL dispatch 57
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been showing,
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mainstream media clips for 56 episodes. Now 57 was our own boy, Marty.
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He was on Fox talking about this. So shout out to him. It's a massive fucking accomplishment. Very proud of him. Watched that live.
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He actually,
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he's he's on a family vacation staying at an Airbnb, and Fox drove a studio van outside of his Airbnb.
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And Marty walked out barefoot and did the interview barefoot, which is fucking baller.
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But yeah. So so they can't actually freeze
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Bitcoin that is being held self custody. And Marty made a very good point of saying that on Fox.
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But what they can do is they can track it, and they can make your life as difficult as possible and stop you from interacting with regulated exchanges. And that's what they did. They issued this freeze order.
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The funds were still distributed to truckers that are involved in the protests.
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Those those transactions are very obvious on chain. You can see the flow of funds to those people.
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They also went
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another step, and they took videos of of them giving it to the truckers. So the actual truckers that received it are known. So we know how much Bitcoin they have. We can watch their transactions. We know,
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who they are specifically. So they've already had their banks account seized. In most situations, they've had their insurance cut, and now they're known to be holding this Bitcoin,
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and their transactions going forward can be tracked.
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So,
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that's what happens when you're reusing an address.
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Fortunately, in Bitcoin,
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we have the ability to
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not reuse addresses. Oh, and, actually, I would add on top of this,
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the tally coin fundraiser accepted lightning
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as well as on chain.
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The Lightning,
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transactions
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far outnumbered the on chain transactions, but the actual amount
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was significantly less. It was something like, you know, 95%
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of the value that was transmitted to the fundraiser was done so on chain,
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but,
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maybe 60% of the actual number of payments was done via Lightning. And this doesn't
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they have not been able to necessarily actively track those Lightning payments.
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It was obvious that it was going to BTC Sessions node.
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So there's other aspects there,
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that people should keep in mind.
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If you go it we'll probably keep the lightning side minimal, but if you go to cildispatch.com/cd21, cildispatch 21, that is where we discuss all the nuances of lightning privacy, so people should go there if they're they're interested. But, anyway, fortunately, we have the ability
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to receive
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Bitcoin
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without
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re address reuse. And 2 of the ways of doing that is BTC pay server, which Pavel, next is is
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a major part of that open source project. And the another way is SatSale, which Nick is the lead maintainer of. So should we go into
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should we go into how how someone could could set up one of those instances to receive Bitcoin in a more private way?
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So, yeah,
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like, BTC pay server is an open source
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payment processor,
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which allows you to
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basically accept Bitcoin payments whether you're a merchant or just
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trying to raise fund funds for your cause. It's a self hosted piece of software, which means you're hosting it on your own terms, on your own servers,
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and you're in complete control of the private keys that you have.
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So you you basically own the entire payment
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platform, and I'm assume it's very similar to,
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your project, Nick. Right?
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And then we'll have Nick,
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talk about the different trade off decisions he made that differentiated,
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from BTC Pay. And, also, like, let's highlight the fact that I mean, Pavel, you have run crowdfunding
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through BTCPay.
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Big one was bitcoin smiles, I believe, dot org,
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in El Salvador. So let's talk about that a little bit and your experiences and how someone might go and use BTCPay. Like, in practice, like, okay.
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I wanna raise funds with BTCPay. How do I do that?
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Actually, that's better. So I'm sure the listeners are familiar with, for example, software like WordPress, which you basically allows you to create a website, you host it, and you can, you know, write your own blog post. It's very similar with BTC based server. It's a self hosted software which you're running,
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which allows you to accept Bitcoin payments.
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We do allow you to connect with your ecommerce platforms like, WooCommerce, Shopify, and others, Magento, and a few others. But, also, we have a software.
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Actually, we call them apps, which allow you to run an entire website
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on top of your payment platform. And, you can have
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point of sale application if you're a merchant accepting Bitcoin in in retail. But for our discussion, I think the one which is very interesting is a crowdfunding application,
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which we built, I believe, 3 years ago now now, and, we had several successful big campaigns. If you remember, Matt,
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Huddl Note campaign was hosted on BTC based server crowdfunding. It was our first use case where we raised, funds for our
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fellow Bitcoiner who had the, you know, loss of problems. Let's know maybe go into that specific case. But
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then we did,
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one of crowdfunding for Bitcoin for Tor.
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And now we have,
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bitcoin smiles dotorg, which listeners can go ahead and, you know, type in bitcoin smiles dotorg, and you will see,
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a website where when you click donate, it leads you to a separate
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server payment server, which,
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you know, they are hosting, and you can simply send payments to them. A BTC pay server is you can think of it as an invoice management system, which generates invoices for your donors.
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It is unlike the example we gave earlier. BTC based server does not
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reuse address. So we create whenever a payment is detected
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and wherever an invoice is generated. Whenever somebody clicks donate on Bitcoin Smiles, for example,
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we generate a brand new invoice. And when it's paid or when it expires, we will simply show another one for, you know, whoever else wants to donate. So there is never address we use
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with, BTC pay server, and that is, like, one of our first things that we built into software is never reusing addresses. In in any way, we strongly discourage
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that.
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So I'm not sure. Was that clear, or do you want me to go a little bit deeper on how it works? But maybe for this, it's
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like, what what is one that you would suggest over the other and and and why? Like, you have crowdfunding and then you have, you know, donation pages, as an option. Is there one particular reason to use one over the other?
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For example, you can, set up a goal. For example, I'm raising 1 Bitcoin, and then it will show you progress bar, and it's very interactive way. Peep you can even have special sound effects,
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you know, animations when people donate, things like that.
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If you want to go a little bit more lightweight or simpler way, you can have,
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for example, a simple page which just, has a payment button on our end where people can just input a number of $5
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or 5 Bitcoin or whatever currency you set up on your end, and then it will do the same thing. It generates an invoice, shows it. So on,
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like, very simply explain, it's very it works in a similar way. It just has different,
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user interface, basically.
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We,
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we built it with flexibility
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in mind, so we try to have, like, as many options and give freedom to people to customize their own pages
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and things like that. So that it's
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technically, it works very similarly. It's just the UI that's different for all these features.
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people can visibly
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not on the block explorer, but through your through your UI, they can see kind of the status of the crowdfunding. And that almost, like, builds a network effect. And, you know, if you're, like, 80% on the way there, everyone comes forward and tries to get the last 20%.
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So but it does that in you know, while still not using the same address. Like, it I'm guessing that uses, like, the XPub behind the scenes to kinda visibly so show outsiders,
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that status.
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It it uses, yeah, XPub or public key, which you just input and you can have your
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private key stored offline.
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And, you know, we just generate addresses based on that,
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public key that you input. So
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it's very simple.
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for actually setting up a BTC pay server, I think, 2 of the things you guys have done really well. I mean,
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BTC pay in a lot of ways has kind of become
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the
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the classic project someone points to in terms of a successful open source project in the Bitcoin space that's not Bitcoin Core, because you just have such a huge community of open source contributors there. And that's not just developers. You have all this documentation
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in terms of how to actually set it up. Right? So you can use any VPS,
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and and you guys have, basically, step by step instructions.
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A VPS is a virtual private server. For these types of things, would you guys agree that you usually should have,
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basically, like, a a a a cloud server that is running your donations rather than actually running it from, like, your closet or something like that.
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for best performance, I guess, it is better to have it run on a virtual private server on a cloud because it is available, like, 247,
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you know, at home. You can have you you can run BTC based around a Raspberry Pi, but I'm not sure if it's, like, as reliable as it is on a VPS. But, you know, these small devices are getting better and better, and who knows? Maybe one day it will be even better to to run it that way. Though it also has some privacy implications
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by running it on a virtual private server, you're basically giving responsibility
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to whoever is hosting that server where you can have,
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your Bitcoin stored in your wallet at home.
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And your IP address can be, you know, somewhere in Germany or wherever the server is hosted. Of course, that is the attack factor on itself because then government can shut down that server, but then again, you can easily
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redeploy it on a different environment. So or or a different provider in this case. And that's, I mean, that's more risky. So I actually was I
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yet reliable,
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and they're based in Canada. So you could see a situation where governments actually go and try and shut down,
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these server accounts,
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because it is visible, and anyone can really tell. I mean, a sophisticated actor can tell,
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where you're hosting it based on IP address.
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But at least with the on chain funds, the on chain funds, your actual private key, the spend key for your funds is not on the server,
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so your funds aren't necessarily at risk. You just need to go and redeploy. Now on Lightning,
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that's a little bit different, right, because you have a hot wallet on the server.
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payments. So
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that's a technical challenge.
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But, yeah, for, probably, for, if you're, like, concerned about,
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somebody's maybe, you know,
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shutting your server down and stealing your Bitcoin, you can either withdraw regularly
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or,
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yeah, basically, keep it on chain and secured,
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offline as you mentioned, Matt.
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voltage dot cloud,
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they are a Bitcoin infrastructure company that offers
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VPSs
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that you can pay with with Bitcoin without KYC.
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And right now, they offer LND for lightning, and they offer a one click BTC pay server. So you can go there, and you can literally just pay them Bitcoin,
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go through the steps, follow their instructions, and get a BTC pay server up and running, fairly easily.
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service for the software that we are creating. So for us, it is, like, very important that,
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these people in a way compete and try to provide better service and that we have,
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many alternatives. Ideally, we want, you know, BTC based server to be available like you have WordPress now. Like, any hosting provider can allow you one click installation
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of WordPress. Any BTC based server becomes popular, and
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I can see, like, even more,
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companies basically wanting to, you know, generate
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money just by having an easy way to deploy BTC based server and, in that regard, decentralizing.
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But, you know, BTC based server isn't just limited to these providers. You can run it with 4 lines of command line on any virtual private server that has, like, 2 gigabytes of RAM and 60, you
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know, storage. So
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it's,
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really easy to it's not as easy to do it with the with these Vault Edge and Luna node managed hosting, but it it you can really do it on any any virtual private server that, you know, meets these minimum requirements. And which aren't ideal, like, you know, it requires
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some resource resources because we are doing lots of things in the background for you so that you can, you know, easily
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have a a UI to to accept Bitcoin payments. But yeah.
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Tor options,
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for some of these provide some of these providers? I love the whole one click deploy thing, but I don't know if I've ever seen, like, a Tor option.
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would be like an onion site?
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if you're from looking at from the perspective of people wanting to donate, for example, if you go to a payment page of Bitcoin Smiles, like, not the main site, but the
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donation,
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and you access it through Tor browser,
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it will pop up an onion address where you can, you know, be directed to to access it that way if that's what you're referring to. I'm not sure. Yeah. Exactly. But, I mean, the main trade off there, Tony, is that
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If you're gonna do that, though, if you're if you're fine with that trade off, then all of a sudden, you might not even need a VPS in the first place. Because I would say
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the biggest,
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the biggest bottleneck of, you know, using one of these 247 node boxes at home to run your BTC pay server
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is if you don't wanna expose your IP address, it's Tor only. But if you're fine with Tor only,
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then it's not I I I don't I don't think it's that impractical to necessarily just, like, run it from a closet somewhere,
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yeah. Sorry. But this is only, yeah, the the UX, I guess, and the people
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wanting to access the website through
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their browser. But, one good thing, there is that if you're using Tor and accessing,
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for example, I'm, now referring to Bitcoin Smile. But if you're accessing that donation,
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crowdfunding patch, it will just pop up a warning and say, hey. This one is available in that onion. Do you want to, you know, be directed there? And people using Tor can go there, and the ones that aren't will just, you know, see normal page. So that's a little bit of UX improvement that we also did. But I agree. It can be done. It just depends,
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if you're willing to sacrifice, you know, what a a little bit of, you know, u usability
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and UX in order to be more private and more secure or whatever. But
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from your home, like, on a Raspberry Pi,
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without Tor.
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But, yeah, I I sort of really tend to to discourage that because you are every time someone goes to make a donation,
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the payment page is gonna make a request to your IP address,
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to to fetch a new address
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or a new address for every donation.
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And
400
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that could leak your public IP address, which is probably not something you wanna have happen, especially if you're also running your Bitcoin node on that IP.
401
00:34:56.780 --> 00:34:59.520
It could open you up to a number of, like, attacks and,
402
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whatnot.
403
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it lets, like, the average user know your rough location down to, like, the city level. A sophisticated actor could actually
405
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figure out your exact, you know, home address or office address that you're running it in.
406
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There's a lot of privacy leaks if you're if you're running ClearNet from home. Right?
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408
00:35:26.575 --> 00:35:30.415
it's a bit of a tricky problem. So, yeah, VPS is a a sort of
409
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I agree with Pavlinx that that's that's the way to go, I think.
410
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Because, yeah, at the moment, I don't think enough people are using,
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Tor sort of natively or or frequently enough to make it sort of viable to get enough donations through an onion,
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payment gateway.
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414
00:35:55.620 --> 00:35:56.120
more,
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predisposed
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to used for. But even among us,
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it definitely feels like it's still the minority.
418
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419
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when, you know, evaluating using, you know, one of these services.
420
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That's a good point.
421
00:36:20.215 --> 00:36:22.635
422
00:36:22.935 --> 00:36:25.940
of what BTC page server brings to the table.
423
00:36:27.359 --> 00:36:33.859
Nick, you wanna talk about the differences with Satsale and what you're attempting to do with that project and the different trade offs you've made?
424
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425
00:36:36.105 --> 00:36:36.925
So Satsale
426
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is a lightweight,
427
00:36:39.465 --> 00:36:40.765
Bitcoin payment processor,
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and it connects to your own Bitcoin node or or lightning network node.
429
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And so we have,
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definitely not as many features as the BTC pay server guys have.
431
00:36:52.145 --> 00:36:57.845
So we do have donation pages, and you can embed like a like a donation button on your website.
432
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We also have a payment gateway for WooCommerce, so you can use it for sort of, merchant payments.
433
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And you can also use it for sort of more general applications. So it does have this,
434
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sort of payment API in the background. You could use it for a variety of other,
435
00:37:17.450 --> 00:37:17.950
Bitcoin,
436
00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:30.494
payment things. For example, I've seen it used as actually as a CAPTCHA. So a lightning CAPTCHA. So every time you wanna leave a comment on a website, you might have to pay, like, a 15 sat lightning invoice,
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and then sat sale will confirm that that that invoice has been paid, and then you're allowed to, post that comment,
438
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on that website.
439
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:39.920
So
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so SatSale,
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00:37:42.220 --> 00:37:42.880
you can
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the the there's sort of 2 ways to to use it at the moment.
443
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The first
444
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is you can download it in your Umbrel app store. So if you're running Umbrel,
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00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:57.390
Bitcoin node on a Raspberry Pi, you can find that sale,
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in that app store. But the one of the problems with that is that, yes, it's not on a VPS. It'll be at your home IP, and that's that's not really,
447
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ideal,
448
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for the reasons we just discussed earlier.
449
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So the the way I recommend that people
450
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set up sat sale at the moment is to yeah. You you like BTC pay, you might rent a VPS for, say, 2, 3, $4 a month.
451
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And what you do is you would,
452
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point that VPS to to look,
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at your Bitcoin nodes. You might have a Raspberry Pi at home,
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and you're renting this VPS somewhere in another country or wherever,
455
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and,
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you install sat sale on the VPS,
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and you give,
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SatSale
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sort of the your your home IP address and and your Bitcoin,
460
00:38:51.309 --> 00:38:52.369
it's called RPC
461
00:38:53.045 --> 00:38:53.545
authentication,
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username and password or or cookie file.
463
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And and then when you run SatSale, it's like a a web server that,
464
00:39:04.790 --> 00:39:05.930
you can you can
465
00:39:06.470 --> 00:39:09.050
initiate donations through. And so when you go to
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make a new donation,
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Satsale
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will reach out to your Bitcoin node at home. So it'll it'll
469
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fetch a new address, and it will display that,
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00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:22.430
on the web server, the Satcell web server,
471
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and it will continuously monitor that address to check that a payment,
472
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has been made.
473
00:39:30.465 --> 00:39:32.165
Is there anything else I missed there?
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00:39:32.865 --> 00:39:36.480
So, yeah, SatSale is sort of like a it's a lot more smaller.
475
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:40.000
Definitely nowhere near as many features as BTCPay.
476
00:39:41.580 --> 00:39:46.255
For example, BTCPay has pay joins, which I think is really, really, really awesome.
477
00:39:46.635 --> 00:39:48.015
Something I definitely wanna
478
00:39:48.474 --> 00:39:49.775
look into at some point.
479
00:39:50.795 --> 00:39:52.655
But I like to think it's quite
480
00:39:53.160 --> 00:39:55.020
modular and extendable and
481
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.579
customizable for for whatever you might need. So for example,
482
00:40:00.680 --> 00:40:01.180
the
483
00:40:02.895 --> 00:40:07.075
the the payment page, like, the donation button itself is all very
484
00:40:07.375 --> 00:40:08.275
very very,
485
00:40:08.655 --> 00:40:09.155
basic,
486
00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:15.760
HTML and sort of CSS. It's very it doesn't look great. I'll admit that.
487
00:40:16.780 --> 00:40:18.405
But it means it's,
488
00:40:18.885 --> 00:40:25.865
modifiable and and you can customize it. So you could very easily, like, replace the logos with, say, your company business logo, and
489
00:40:27.010 --> 00:40:31.670
you could you could change it all around quite easily to to customize it for whatever purpose you have.
490
00:40:33.410 --> 00:40:34.470
491
00:40:35.215 --> 00:40:36.275
right now, SatSale
492
00:40:36.655 --> 00:40:37.155
has,
493
00:40:38.055 --> 00:40:42.595
you know, has a store option. It has, like, a donation option, like, an HTML snippet option.
494
00:40:43.140 --> 00:40:48.579
And I believe you're also on on WooCommerce as well. Is that is that correct? Yeah. Just WooCommerce at the moment,
495
00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:50.905
496
00:40:51.705 --> 00:40:53.165
We don't have a
497
00:40:54.025 --> 00:40:54.765
a crowdfunding
498
00:40:55.465 --> 00:41:02.079
page just yet. So we don't have a page that sort of adds up the sum of all the donations and displays,
499
00:41:02.859 --> 00:41:06.880
like a goal or anything like that, but it's definitely something I'm I'm pretty keen in building.
500
00:41:10.685 --> 00:41:12.385
501
00:41:12.845 --> 00:41:14.545
Satsale is that
502
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:19.819
is that is that you have, BIP 47 support.
503
00:41:21.160 --> 00:41:22.700
What are your thoughts on that,
504
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.099
and how do you see it playing into
505
00:41:27.085 --> 00:41:28.385
the offering at Satsail?
506
00:41:29.805 --> 00:41:32.944
507
00:41:34.770 --> 00:41:35.990
So bit 47
508
00:41:36.370 --> 00:41:38.230
are these, for those who don't know, they're,
509
00:41:39.250 --> 00:41:40.870
reusable payment codes.
510
00:41:41.330 --> 00:41:42.070
So, essentially,
511
00:41:43.255 --> 00:41:45.994
everything we said it before about not reusing addresses,
512
00:41:47.015 --> 00:41:52.474
you could actually sort of get away with with bit 40 seven. So you can have a a single sort of payment code
513
00:41:52.810 --> 00:41:54.030
or QR code,
514
00:41:54.570 --> 00:41:55.070
and
515
00:41:55.450 --> 00:41:58.350
every individual user who scans that,
516
00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:00.910
payment code, it sets up
517
00:42:02.845 --> 00:42:05.105
sort of like a like a,
518
00:42:06.685 --> 00:42:07.505
like a private
519
00:42:08.525 --> 00:42:09.505
address channel.
520
00:42:10.525 --> 00:42:11.025
So
521
00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:13.430
you and the recipient
522
00:42:14.289 --> 00:42:16.150
are both able to produce addresses,
523
00:42:18.369 --> 00:42:23.954
that no one else is able to to derive. Only you as the sender and the recipient
524
00:42:24.494 --> 00:42:25.234
of those
525
00:42:25.615 --> 00:42:26.654
donations are able to,
526
00:42:28.140 --> 00:42:30.640
derive these addresses from the payment code.
527
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:33.579
And so for that sale,
528
00:42:34.675 --> 00:42:39.575
on the main donation screen at the moment, you can you can we've got a little script that can inject
529
00:42:39.875 --> 00:42:40.375
your
530
00:42:40.915 --> 00:42:46.530
your pay name. So in the config file, you can just type in, you know, my pay name is royal cell 593.
531
00:42:47.870 --> 00:42:49.810
Satsale will go and grab your
532
00:42:50.110 --> 00:42:50.610
your
533
00:42:51.125 --> 00:42:53.625
bit 47 payment code from paynim.is,
534
00:42:54.565 --> 00:42:55.385
and it will,
535
00:42:55.845 --> 00:42:59.305
display that that QR code and as well as a link to your paynim,
536
00:43:00.005 --> 00:43:02.490
on the on on the front donation page.
537
00:43:03.430 --> 00:43:06.010
And that's, that's sort of an alternative way of,
538
00:43:06.870 --> 00:43:08.010
donating to someone.
539
00:43:08.905 --> 00:43:10.045
It doesn't actually
540
00:43:11.545 --> 00:43:15.405
there's no way at the moment for SatSale to confirm that you've made a donation
541
00:43:16.105 --> 00:43:18.500
using a bit 47 payment code,
542
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.500
because those payments are very private. Because that's the point. Recipient.
543
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:23.380
Exactly.
544
00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:24.580
545
00:43:25.135 --> 00:43:34.740
first of all, we have someone in the chat saying that they can't find Satsale, and they spelled it like the boat sail. It's spelled it's spelled like, you know, like a fire sail. So satsale.org.
546
00:43:36.560 --> 00:43:38.260
If you're listening via the podcast,
547
00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:41.380
and you and you want more information, that's where you go.
548
00:43:42.535 --> 00:43:45.515
So, I mean, I thought this was interesting because to me,
549
00:43:47.175 --> 00:43:48.295
so first of all, I
550
00:43:49.110 --> 00:43:49.770
BIP 47,
551
00:43:51.110 --> 00:43:52.250
is fucking awesome.
552
00:43:52.950 --> 00:43:53.770
And, unfortunately,
553
00:43:54.230 --> 00:43:55.370
even though it was proposed,
554
00:43:56.375 --> 00:43:58.715
maybe 5 years ago, 6 years ago,
555
00:43:59.015 --> 00:44:02.075
it's a couple developers, a couple core developers
556
00:44:02.615 --> 00:44:07.950
decided that it was a little bit spammy on chain. They considered it spam because there's a notification transaction,
557
00:44:08.809 --> 00:44:09.289
and,
558
00:44:10.170 --> 00:44:13.630
they universally discouraged it for implementation. So the only,
559
00:44:14.315 --> 00:44:17.615
2 wallets that currently support it are Samurais and Sparrow,
560
00:44:18.075 --> 00:44:21.055
and Samurais the only one that supports sending to it.
561
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:23.980
Samurai also has a feature called
562
00:44:24.520 --> 00:44:26.380
Pay NIMs, where they take
563
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:29.980
your payment code. So your payment code is just locally generated
564
00:44:32.145 --> 00:44:35.205
text string. It it can it looks like a Bitcoin address.
565
00:44:35.585 --> 00:44:38.785
You know, it doesn't start with b c one. It starts with,
566
00:44:39.185 --> 00:44:40.165
I believe, PM,
567
00:44:41.089 --> 00:44:44.070
but it looks like a Bitcoin address. It's just letters and numbers.
568
00:44:44.450 --> 00:44:47.510
It's locally generated. It doesn't rely on a centralized server.
569
00:44:48.095 --> 00:44:50.275
Now they have this website, paynim.is,
570
00:44:51.615 --> 00:44:54.115
that links a human readable name
571
00:44:54.494 --> 00:44:55.875
to that payment code.
572
00:44:57.230 --> 00:45:18.520
That is a trusted directory of payment codes. So if you're going and fetching a payment code from there, you're putting trust in the samurai team that they're not putting a incorrect payment code. They're they're not putting in their own payment code, or they're not getting man in the middle of them putting in a different payment code. So the ideal situation is you're hosting that payment code in many different places,
573
00:45:19.140 --> 00:45:24.375
so people can verify it. And one of the cool aspects of BIP 47 is once you have that payment code,
574
00:45:25.395 --> 00:45:27.655
you never need to fetch it again. You can generate
575
00:45:28.035 --> 00:45:36.079
new addresses that only you and the receiver know every time you wanna pay them, and you never have to go back to it. Similar to, like, if you have someone's PGP key,
576
00:45:36.619 --> 00:45:40.160
you can just hold on to that PGP key and just constantly use it for encrypting.
577
00:45:40.484 --> 00:45:41.704
Now I brought up PGP
578
00:45:42.165 --> 00:45:48.425
can be very useful in a BIP 47 environment because if someone knows your PGP key, you can sign
579
00:45:48.849 --> 00:46:00.775
a bit 47 payment code with your PGP key so they can verify it that way as well. Now PGP has its own set of adoption issues. Unfortunately, a lot of BitCorners don't use it. You can find my p g p key at sidildispatch.com/pgp.
580
00:46:02.115 --> 00:46:06.295
I would like to see more people use that. But, anyway, my question to you, Nick,
581
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.540
is, to me, one of the cool parts of BIP 47
582
00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:10.900
is that
583
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:16.615
I don't need to run something on a VPS. I don't have to run SatSale on a VPS. I don't have to run BTCPay
584
00:46:16.915 --> 00:46:19.895
on a VPS. I don't have to pay a server provider
585
00:46:20.355 --> 00:46:24.070
or have uptime. All I need to do is post this payment string somewhere,
586
00:46:24.470 --> 00:46:26.730
and someone can pay me from their wallet.
587
00:46:28.150 --> 00:46:30.490
Do you not see it as almost, like, an alternative
588
00:46:30.790 --> 00:46:37.975
to something like SatSale rather than having like, it's interesting to me that you have it integrated into something like SatSale. Because if you already have
589
00:46:38.275 --> 00:46:40.215
if you already have the SatSale instance,
590
00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:45.309
591
00:46:46.250 --> 00:46:48.829
I I like giving people the option, so I'll probably
592
00:46:49.305 --> 00:46:50.125
add some
593
00:46:50.745 --> 00:46:51.245
other
594
00:46:51.865 --> 00:46:53.565
payment methods like bolt 12,
595
00:46:55.145 --> 00:46:56.285
for for lightning,
596
00:46:56.905 --> 00:46:57.405
reusable
597
00:46:58.079 --> 00:46:58.900
payment codes.
598
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:05.859
Yeah. It's it's sort of it's not it's like so you can't SatSale itself can't actually
599
00:47:06.345 --> 00:47:07.085
monitor payments
600
00:47:07.385 --> 00:47:11.484
that have been made to that that bit 47 payment code like you said.
601
00:47:11.785 --> 00:47:12.285
So,
602
00:47:13.530 --> 00:47:16.270
you wouldn't be able to, like, use bit 47
603
00:47:17.210 --> 00:47:21.550
if you were doing things like a merchant checkout. Or you could, but
604
00:47:22.025 --> 00:47:24.025
not not just yet, at least with how,
605
00:47:24.585 --> 00:47:26.684
no platforms exist for that just yet.
606
00:47:27.464 --> 00:47:27.964
Because
607
00:47:28.984 --> 00:47:30.525
Satsale doesn't know,
608
00:47:31.930 --> 00:47:32.670
the secret,
609
00:47:33.530 --> 00:47:37.390
for to or it doesn't know which addresses to look to look for,
610
00:47:38.250 --> 00:47:41.390
and and check whether a payment's been made to that address.
611
00:47:43.835 --> 00:47:46.095
So so, yeah, it is it is quite different,
612
00:47:46.555 --> 00:47:49.615
and it and I I really like it. It is it's a really useful
613
00:47:50.050 --> 00:47:53.349
sort of solution to this problem is you wanna receive money
614
00:47:53.810 --> 00:47:59.670
and but you don't wanna have to host a a web server that spits out a new address every time.
615
00:48:00.245 --> 00:48:03.225
So BIPs 47 is a really cool solution for,
616
00:48:03.765 --> 00:48:12.090
just being able to paste something in your bio or at the bottom of your website, and people can just reuse it over and over, and you don't have to worry about any privacy issues.
617
00:48:12.550 --> 00:48:14.970
618
00:48:15.525 --> 00:48:18.745
I ask the question, and then I answer the question that I asked.
619
00:48:19.845 --> 00:48:22.725
It's to me to me, the reason you have,
620
00:48:23.630 --> 00:48:26.530
the ability to display your bit 47 payment code
621
00:48:26.830 --> 00:48:28.530
directly in SatSale interface
622
00:48:29.070 --> 00:48:31.730
is because at the end of the day, it's good to give Bitcorders
623
00:48:32.035 --> 00:48:38.694
options. More options are better. And as someone you know, Citi dispatch relies on donations, and right now, I'm using BTCPay.
624
00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:40.430
So if you go to sidlaldispatch.com/contribute,
625
00:48:42.170 --> 00:48:44.990
you can donate through BTCPay. But because I can't
626
00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:56.045
show that payment code directly into the flow, the payment code is right underneath it. Right? So it's nice Mhmm. If someone's accepting donations that, you know, you go to this one page and just, like, nice, pretty,
627
00:48:56.520 --> 00:49:01.020
everything is that you want displayed there for all the different options that people can pay.
628
00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:04.380
And then the big advantage of of something like BTCPay
629
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:05.500
or
630
00:49:07.474 --> 00:49:11.895
SATSale over just a static BIP 47 code is that you can receive,
631
00:49:13.234 --> 00:49:14.694
Lightning as well.
632
00:49:15.270 --> 00:49:20.090
Mhmm. And a lot of people like paying with Lightning. Lightning does give the sender some additional privacy benefits.
633
00:49:20.950 --> 00:49:24.490
It's not great for receiver privacy, but it's pretty good for sender privacy.
634
00:49:26.214 --> 00:49:34.890
635
00:49:35.349 --> 00:49:45.115
the most private option donate to you, like, you could be a controversial cause, and, you know, I I really don't want that linking back to me. So I'm gonna, you know, pick which one is is the best for my privacy.
636
00:49:45.575 --> 00:49:50.635
And I I think I think it goes along. Give the sender options. Yeah. Give the sender options. You know, give the Bitcoiners,
637
00:49:50.935 --> 00:49:56.750
you know, the options for the most private. So, you know, I would use something like paying them or or lightning as a sender,
638
00:49:57.290 --> 00:49:59.070
in those scenarios where I'm donating.
639
00:50:01.775 --> 00:50:05.155
640
00:50:07.215 --> 00:50:10.620
641
00:50:11.720 --> 00:50:12.220
So
642
00:50:12.600 --> 00:50:13.820
I think, you know,
643
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:16.520
it all comes down to,
644
00:50:17.160 --> 00:50:23.155
why is this sit why are we in this situation that for a simple donation, you need to run a server.
645
00:50:24.255 --> 00:50:31.760
It's not on BTC based server. It's not on Satsail to, you know what what we are trying to do is just, you know, find,
646
00:50:32.220 --> 00:50:33.920
our way to offer people
647
00:50:34.974 --> 00:50:40.994
a a way to donate in a way that it doesn't infringe their privacy. So we're, in a way, hacking around the protocol
648
00:50:41.590 --> 00:50:45.050
in order for people to be able to accept Bitcoin, but that
649
00:50:45.430 --> 00:50:48.810
that shouldn't be the case. Like, payment processors like BTCPay
650
00:50:49.110 --> 00:50:51.130
and Setsail should be there to allow
651
00:50:51.575 --> 00:50:54.234
merchants and people wanting to manage invoices
652
00:50:54.695 --> 00:50:56.635
and people wanting to connect to the
653
00:50:56.935 --> 00:50:57.435
WooCommerce,
654
00:50:57.815 --> 00:50:59.835
Magento. I don't know. Whatever,
655
00:51:00.690 --> 00:51:03.910
CMS or content management system they have out there.
656
00:51:04.930 --> 00:51:06.230
Bitcoin as a protocol
657
00:51:06.930 --> 00:51:09.270
needs to evolve beyond, you know,
658
00:51:09.855 --> 00:51:16.494
people reusing address. We need to have these unique identifiers that, protect people privacy in my way. And I think,
659
00:51:17.420 --> 00:51:18.880
what Samura has done is
660
00:51:19.180 --> 00:51:29.975
been there for quite a while, and it's, at least encouraging to see people adopting it. I personally haven't looked, into protocol, and I don't see how we can implement it into BTC based server.
661
00:51:30.275 --> 00:51:33.975
But I envision the future where we could be able to pay,
662
00:51:34.660 --> 00:51:44.815
to one another without thinking about invoices, addresses, or whatnot. I'm just Pablonex sending to Matt, and it will payment will be made. I enter Matt
663
00:51:45.275 --> 00:51:47.775
at unique identifier or whatever similar,
664
00:51:48.715 --> 00:51:49.695
in which way,
665
00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:50.760
bolt,
666
00:51:51.060 --> 00:51:53.880
12 or lightning addresses or URL work.
667
00:51:54.420 --> 00:52:03.795
That's the future I want to see. I want to see future where you as a user can just install a wallet and accept a damn donation. You don't you don't have to run this complex infrastructure,
668
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:11.859
But, yeah, we are still not there, but one day, I I believe we will be. For now, these are your options. You know?
669
00:52:13.255 --> 00:52:14.475
Bitcoin will evolve.
670
00:52:15.175 --> 00:52:17.035
Lots of work is being done
671
00:52:17.735 --> 00:52:18.375
on these,
672
00:52:18.695 --> 00:52:23.810
you know, unique identifiers I like to call them. I'm not sure if it's even technically correct, but
673
00:52:24.190 --> 00:52:25.090
yeah. So,
674
00:52:25.390 --> 00:52:28.610
what we are doing is trying to hack around for now.
675
00:52:28.985 --> 00:52:31.065
BTC based server has always been a project,
676
00:52:31.465 --> 00:52:34.445
implementing others people idea, trying to, you know,
677
00:52:34.905 --> 00:52:42.050
give other projects and protocols a way to evolve and find the user base. So that's why we do all these things. But at the end of the day,
678
00:52:42.670 --> 00:52:53.605
when we think about it, it shouldn't really be that hard. Like, people should just be able to put a damn QR code in the website or something very unique, and people should be able to send them money. Like,
679
00:52:53.905 --> 00:52:56.085
if you're for example, I don't know, Wikipedia
680
00:52:56.385 --> 00:53:07.734
or, I don't know, Tor project, and you want to have invoices. You have an accountant willing to, you know, you need accounting. You need to maybe give prizes to people donating. Of course, you need a payment server,
681
00:53:08.194 --> 00:53:19.830
to handle all these complexities for you. But if you're just, I don't know, guitar player wanting to get donations for for whatever, like, it really should be just your wallet. So giving you,
682
00:53:20.690 --> 00:53:34.900
unique way to to accept Bitcoin without you having to think around with servers and whatnot. I'm not sure if you guys agree, but, I really wish that the future. So I mean, I I think I mean, look, a perfect example of the power of something like BIP 47
683
00:53:35.839 --> 00:53:40.500
684
00:53:41.085 --> 00:53:48.605
you guys don't actually even need to do any development on your side. Someone can just put their payment code in, like, that description field of, the crowdfund,
685
00:53:49.500 --> 00:53:52.800
if they want to. But if you wanna talk about, like, the power of something like BIP 47,
686
00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:57.760
like, my Twitter banner just has my BIP 47 QR code. It's just fixed there.
687
00:53:58.095 --> 00:54:05.075
I don't use any other social media, but you could imagine you could put that in your your Facebook banner or your LinkedIn profile picture or whatever
688
00:54:05.455 --> 00:54:13.550
fucking social media you use because it's just a static QR code that can always stay there without address you use. It's massively powerful in that regard. Right?
689
00:54:15.965 --> 00:54:17.745
690
00:54:20.765 --> 00:54:22.865
So at the moment, the biggest criticism
691
00:54:23.165 --> 00:54:24.465
of bit bit 47,
692
00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:30.760
is that when you wanna make a payment to someone for the first time using their payment code,
693
00:54:31.220 --> 00:54:34.875
you have as you said, Matt, you have to make that notification transaction.
694
00:54:36.215 --> 00:54:37.835
So this notification transaction,
695
00:54:39.175 --> 00:54:40.395
it it's
696
00:54:40.710 --> 00:54:42.870
it lets the recipient know that,
697
00:54:43.270 --> 00:54:44.550
they should start looking
698
00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:47.290
they should start scanning these sort of addresses
699
00:54:47.990 --> 00:54:49.610
and check for incoming payments.
700
00:54:49.995 --> 00:54:50.495
And
701
00:54:53.115 --> 00:54:56.575
and so there's some criticism of of that is that it requires
702
00:54:57.195 --> 00:54:57.695
more
703
00:54:58.470 --> 00:54:58.970
transactions
704
00:54:59.349 --> 00:54:59.849
to
705
00:55:00.150 --> 00:55:02.890
to sort of make one payment. You're sort of making 2 transactions
706
00:55:03.190 --> 00:55:04.170
for 1 payment.
707
00:55:05.645 --> 00:55:08.845
But but I I don't I don't think that should sort of get in the way of,
708
00:55:09.325 --> 00:55:11.985
what is really a a really strong privacy tool.
709
00:55:13.680 --> 00:55:17.700
710
00:55:18.080 --> 00:55:22.099
like BIP 47. You could do these payment codes without the notification transaction.
711
00:55:23.265 --> 00:55:28.325
But then your your your base this is my, you know, basic understanding of it.
712
00:55:28.705 --> 00:55:33.430
You're doing that communication out of band, so you're you'd have to be doing that off chain.
713
00:55:33.730 --> 00:55:39.830
Now the cool part about the notification transaction you know, Nick just went through the negative, which is you're making additional
714
00:55:40.345 --> 00:55:49.805
Bitcoin transaction, and that's the part that was considered spam. The cool part means that you don't have to do any additional backup. If you just have your seed phrase, your secret words,
715
00:55:50.650 --> 00:56:00.155
it can recover your payment code. It can recover all of your different generated addresses with all the different people that, you've you made transactions with before, all from that single
716
00:56:00.795 --> 00:56:06.095
seed. If you do it out of band, then all of a sudden, you need to actually keep, like, a digital backup
717
00:56:06.795 --> 00:56:08.690
that ideally is encrypted,
718
00:56:09.070 --> 00:56:14.930
that can have, you know, bit rot, and, like, the the computer drives can fail. It it's it's way more difficult
719
00:56:15.315 --> 00:56:17.655
to back up a digital file than it is,
720
00:56:18.355 --> 00:56:24.935
you know, to put a bunch of words on a and it should into steel and have it being waterproof and fireproof and whatnot. Right?
721
00:56:26.869 --> 00:56:28.890
722
00:56:29.750 --> 00:56:32.329
And, actually, I I saw the other day that
723
00:56:32.655 --> 00:56:33.795
there is a proposal,
724
00:56:34.735 --> 00:56:35.235
for
725
00:56:35.615 --> 00:56:36.835
something very similar
726
00:56:37.135 --> 00:56:41.075
to bit 47. It's it's called efficient reusable taproot addresses.
727
00:56:42.540 --> 00:56:44.400
But, actually, I think it suffers
728
00:56:45.180 --> 00:56:49.760
from that point you just mentioned that because there isn't a notification transaction,
729
00:56:50.425 --> 00:56:53.778
it makes it a bit harder to,
730
00:56:54.585 --> 00:57:01.140
sort of, yeah, restore from just a seed. I think I think something else has to be saved, at least that's my understanding of it.
731
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:08.415
732
00:57:09.755 --> 00:57:11.615
733
00:57:12.050 --> 00:57:14.710
so much fun with you guys, and I'm drinking. So,
734
00:57:15.490 --> 00:57:27.815
735
00:57:28.670 --> 00:57:31.330
It looks like a normal Taproot Bitcoin address,
736
00:57:32.670 --> 00:57:35.090
and has similar properties. It so
737
00:57:35.905 --> 00:57:38.724
it it doesn't have a notification transaction.
738
00:57:39.744 --> 00:57:43.025
My my my biggest confusion there is how does someone know
739
00:57:44.140 --> 00:57:46.800
like, if so if I post my payment code on Twitter
740
00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:50.550
Yeah. You know it's a payment code, and you know it's not,
741
00:57:51.495 --> 00:57:59.115
a fixed address to reuse. If I post a Taproot address, and even if on the receiver side I'm set up to take reusable payments out of it,
742
00:57:59.620 --> 00:58:09.934
I'm gonna expect that the majority of people are just not gonna realize and just send to this fixed, reused address anyway. Right? That's my biggest concern, and that's not even a technical concern. It's just a
743
00:58:11.035 --> 00:58:12.655
a user flow concern. Right?
744
00:58:16.520 --> 00:58:19.640
745
00:58:20.200 --> 00:58:22.620
these reusable Taproot addresses, but,
746
00:58:23.240 --> 00:58:26.345
yeah, that that makes sense to me. That that it's, that
747
00:58:27.705 --> 00:58:29.165
yeah. How do you know
748
00:58:31.945 --> 00:58:32.445
yeah.
749
00:58:33.385 --> 00:58:35.145
I don't know quite how how the
750
00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:40.160
like, if you don't have the notification transaction, how does your wallet know
751
00:58:40.620 --> 00:58:41.600
that it's expecting
752
00:58:41.900 --> 00:58:43.120
to receive a transaction?
753
00:58:43.815 --> 00:58:45.195
754
00:58:45.575 --> 00:58:50.555
expecting a reusable address? How do you know the sender is even gonna realize that it's a reusable address
755
00:58:51.015 --> 00:58:53.180
on both sides? It's kind of odd there.
756
00:58:54.380 --> 00:58:54.880
757
00:58:55.180 --> 00:58:57.280
maybe it still uses, like, a similar
758
00:58:57.980 --> 00:58:59.200
payment code.
759
00:59:01.075 --> 00:59:08.855
I'm I'm just talking on top of my head here. I don't I don't actually know, but maybe it still has, like, a payment code sort of format. But instead of using
760
00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:13.000
BC 1 addresses, it uses
761
00:59:13.300 --> 00:59:16.599
Taproot addresses with some slightly different cryptography,
762
00:59:17.705 --> 00:59:20.605
so that it doesn't need a notification transaction.
763
00:59:21.065 --> 00:59:22.205
764
00:59:22.585 --> 00:59:30.210
like, one of the cool parts that was highlighted about it was that it looks like a regular Taproot address. It was, like, a key aspect of that specific proposal.
765
00:59:30.910 --> 00:59:37.785
Now, I mean, obviously, it's just a proposal. It's very early days. Maybe there are cool things that can happen with Taproot in that regard.
766
00:59:38.725 --> 00:59:42.185
But I think in the meantime, there's obviously a critical need
767
00:59:43.270 --> 00:59:45.850
for some kind of reusable payment code.
768
00:59:46.550 --> 00:59:48.970
BIP 47 seems to fit the bill.
769
00:59:49.565 --> 00:59:55.345
If the concern is that on chain fees are, you know, gonna be increasing because people are using BIP 47,
770
00:59:55.725 --> 00:59:57.585
I would point them to the live view
771
00:59:58.010 --> 00:59:58.750
of mempool.space
772
00:59:59.290 --> 01:00:04.190
right now where one separate byte confirms right away. So I think, you know, we implement that now.
773
01:00:04.650 --> 01:00:06.430
And, you know, if fees go up
774
01:00:06.755 --> 01:00:07.255
ever,
775
01:00:07.714 --> 01:00:10.135
then we can at that point, we can,
776
01:00:10.515 --> 01:00:14.775
you know, start to phase them out and try and be more efficient on chain. But right now, I mean,
777
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:21.560
they're just mining empty blocks, and you can just do one separate bite. Right? Yeah. If anything, you can go ahead and already set up that notification
778
01:00:21.860 --> 01:00:30.365
779
01:00:30.740 --> 01:00:34.119
when it was once sat, so then you can just keep making payments to them afterwards.
780
01:00:34.580 --> 01:00:39.000
781
01:00:39.345 --> 01:00:42.165
I gotta open and close channels all the fucking time.
782
01:00:42.785 --> 01:00:45.765
Yeah. And, like, Lightning is one big batch transaction,
783
01:00:46.065 --> 01:00:46.885
which is cool,
784
01:00:47.420 --> 01:00:49.680
and it's like an automated way of doing that.
785
01:00:50.060 --> 01:00:52.460
But, with BIP 47, like, I already have
786
01:00:54.434 --> 01:01:00.934
there's already, like, a 100 people linked with my payment code. They've already linked. Now they don't have to link again unless they create a new wallet.
787
01:01:02.730 --> 01:01:03.230
788
01:01:03.610 --> 01:01:07.230
789
01:01:08.170 --> 01:01:10.055
790
01:01:10.355 --> 01:01:15.415
but I've added it to my list of reading things of Bitcoin protocol.
791
01:01:17.270 --> 01:01:20.970
So, yeah, I will I I'm reading as you guys speak. It seems
792
01:01:21.350 --> 01:01:25.930
very interesting, but, yeah, I have to, you know, have some time to tinker about
793
01:01:26.934 --> 01:01:30.555
794
01:01:31.255 --> 01:01:31.755
Yeah.
795
01:01:32.775 --> 01:01:33.275
So
796
01:01:33.870 --> 01:01:35.970
so first of all, on the BIP 47 front,
797
01:01:36.270 --> 01:01:42.370
it seems like this whole, you know, Canadian trucker stuff has really prioritized it for a lot of people.
798
01:01:43.075 --> 01:01:43.974
I know BDK
799
01:01:44.275 --> 01:01:44.775
is
800
01:01:46.035 --> 01:01:46.535
considering
801
01:01:47.075 --> 01:01:51.815
merging it, which is intended to be a project that is used as a back end for other
802
01:01:52.770 --> 01:01:53.270
wallets,
803
01:01:53.570 --> 01:01:55.910
for all assortment of wallets. And then BlueWallet,
804
01:01:56.930 --> 01:02:03.015
which is available both iOS and Android, there's an outstanding bounty right now. The last I checked was 12,000,000 sats,
805
01:02:03.635 --> 01:02:12.450
to integrate it into BlueWallet, which I think would be massive. Because right now, like, forget the notification transaction. The biggest issue with BIP 47 is someone has to have an Android phone,
806
01:02:13.070 --> 01:02:18.985
a donator has to have an Android phone, and they have to specifically have a samurai wallet installed. Right? And, like, when you're talking about donations,
807
01:02:19.525 --> 01:02:24.025
you wanna try and reduce the friction of the people who are donating as much as possible,
808
01:02:24.610 --> 01:02:29.030
and that is obviously the biggest point of friction. So, hopefully, we see, you know, over
809
01:02:29.410 --> 01:02:33.190
the next couple of months, you know, start to see while it's implemented,
810
01:02:34.065 --> 01:02:38.405
besides samurai and ideally cross platform, you know, desktop and iPhone.
811
01:02:40.145 --> 01:02:42.945
812
01:02:44.049 --> 01:02:49.910
you know, if if you have a bunch of donors and, you know, they're all let's say they are all using PayNex. Like, eventually,
813
01:02:50.369 --> 01:02:51.349
you know, consolidation
814
01:02:51.650 --> 01:02:55.145
may end up happening and you'll and specific donors will be linked,
815
01:02:55.765 --> 01:02:58.665
to each other. You may not get all the donate donators,
816
01:02:59.445 --> 01:03:04.010
but you still, like, probably would want to, you know, after you, you know, maybe crowdfund,
817
01:03:05.109 --> 01:03:06.490
or, you know, wanna
818
01:03:06.869 --> 01:03:13.595
start using your donations, like, still coinjoin afterwards, you know, after the fact just so you don't, don't, unintentionally
819
01:03:13.975 --> 01:03:16.955
leak link. Like you said, you you you have 21.5,
820
01:03:18.215 --> 01:03:19.355
or sorry, 2.5,
821
01:03:20.790 --> 01:03:21.290
Bitcoin,
822
01:03:21.670 --> 01:03:22.170
UTXOs
823
01:03:22.470 --> 01:03:35.425
and from 2 different donors, and then you spend 1 Bitcoin. And then all of a sudden, you kind of blink those 2. You have linked them on your end. You have linked those 2 donate donators as, like, 2 individuals that have both donated at that point.
824
01:03:36.010 --> 01:03:37.470
You don't exactly know,
825
01:03:38.090 --> 01:03:38.750
you know,
826
01:03:39.450 --> 01:03:43.950
maybe, you know, you you can say that they don't exactly know that it was,
827
01:03:44.295 --> 01:03:50.555
828
01:03:51.335 --> 01:03:56.110
So let's maybe this is a good time to just whether it's paid NIMS or whether it's
829
01:03:56.490 --> 01:03:56.990
BTCPay
830
01:03:57.290 --> 01:03:58.030
or SatSale
831
01:03:58.490 --> 01:03:59.310
or TaliCoin,
832
01:04:00.285 --> 01:04:02.305
you you you're not reusing addresses.
833
01:04:02.684 --> 01:04:04.785
You're receiving all these on chain funds.
834
01:04:05.244 --> 01:04:06.944
How does someone who's crowdfunding,
835
01:04:07.244 --> 01:04:10.810
who's controlling those funds that are received, how should they go about
836
01:04:11.270 --> 01:04:12.170
thinking about
837
01:04:12.470 --> 01:04:13.290
their privacy
838
01:04:13.830 --> 01:04:14.730
and, their
839
01:04:15.030 --> 01:04:15.770
their privacy,
840
01:04:17.395 --> 01:04:20.535
going forward? Like, how do they manage those funds? How should they think about it?
841
01:04:23.635 --> 01:04:28.680
842
01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:32.280
do some coin join after you've received the donations.
843
01:04:33.435 --> 01:04:39.855
So that that once you do a coin join where you there's a whole bunch of inputs and a whole bunch of identical looking outputs,
844
01:04:40.810 --> 01:04:46.110
it breaks these really deterministic, really easy to follow links in the Bitcoin blockchain.
845
01:04:46.970 --> 01:04:54.704
So that not it would not only protect your privacy as, the recipient of those donations because it makes it hard to follow,
846
01:04:55.780 --> 01:04:58.200
what you're spending that donated money on,
847
01:04:58.580 --> 01:05:01.160
but it can also protect your donors that,
848
01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:02.795
it will be a lot
849
01:05:03.355 --> 01:05:06.575
more it'd be a lot more difficult to figure out,
850
01:05:06.954 --> 01:05:12.780
who donated and and, which address is used for what, because it would just look like a whole mess of,
851
01:05:13.340 --> 01:05:16.560
inputs and outputs, and who knows what belongs to who.
852
01:05:17.020 --> 01:05:22.000
853
01:05:23.205 --> 01:05:29.705
So, I mean, let's talk about this from a practical point of view. First of all, there's these chain surveillance firms and freaks who have, you know,
854
01:05:30.040 --> 01:05:37.180
listened to a lot of dispatch. I've heard me explain this a 1000000 times, but it's always good to explain it just in case someone's coming in here fresh just for this episode
855
01:05:37.505 --> 01:05:38.405
to do crowdfunding.
856
01:05:39.425 --> 01:05:43.205
We have these these mercenary firms, these chain surveillance firms,
857
01:05:43.825 --> 01:05:49.550
that their only job is to track people's transactions, Collate known Bitcoin addresses track people's transactions.
858
01:05:49.930 --> 01:05:53.070
They work with corporations. They work with governments. They work with authoritarians.
859
01:05:53.370 --> 01:05:56.725
They share that information around. They have different automated tools to do
860
01:05:57.025 --> 01:05:59.605
it. And the the whole method to their madness
861
01:06:00.065 --> 01:06:03.205
is probability analysis. So with Bitcoin,
862
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:09.860
I can send transactions to myself all day if I want to. So their job is basically determine
863
01:06:10.240 --> 01:06:20.235
when I'm not sending a transaction to myself, I'm actually sending it to Tony or someone else. When does that change of ownership happen? And they they attach probability scores to that, and they have different heuristics
864
01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:21.580
that enable,
865
01:06:22.760 --> 01:06:25.420
that that affect those probabilities scores. So,
866
01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:28.060
one that Tony was just talking about is
867
01:06:28.375 --> 01:06:40.210
on in your Bitcoin wallet, it might say that you have a a total balance of 20,000,000 sats, but, really, it's made up of a bunch of UTXO's. UTXOs. You can think of them as, like, bills in your wallet. So you might actually have 4, $55,000,000
868
01:06:41.150 --> 01:06:42.050
SAT UTXOs.
869
01:06:42.589 --> 01:06:51.744
And if you construct a transaction that's paying out 20,000,000 sats, all 5,000,000 of all 4 of those 5,000,000 sat UTXOs are going on the input side,
870
01:06:52.150 --> 01:07:04.345
and there's something called the common input ownership heuristic, which is this idea that all the inputs are usually controlled by the same person because they're constructing a transaction. Now you can break that with a 2 person coin join.
871
01:07:05.865 --> 01:07:09.325
You can break it kind of with a simulated 2 person coin join,
872
01:07:10.660 --> 01:07:14.279
and and the reason is is because multiple people are providing inputs
873
01:07:14.740 --> 01:07:18.839
instead of instead of just 1 person. And one of the cool aspects of that
874
01:07:19.425 --> 01:07:19.925
is,
875
01:07:21.905 --> 01:07:24.965
one of the cool aspects of that is the more people that do that,
876
01:07:25.665 --> 01:07:39.075
even if you're not actually doing a 2 person coin join, you're you're breaking that common input on ownership heuristic. Another way is something called PayJoin, which actually BTC pay server supports. Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't using it,
877
01:07:39.375 --> 01:07:42.595
but, it's this idea that when you pay someone,
878
01:07:42.970 --> 01:07:44.590
the receiver is contributing
879
01:07:45.050 --> 01:07:45.790
a input.
880
01:07:46.330 --> 01:07:48.670
So on the input side, it's not just,
881
01:07:49.290 --> 01:07:54.475
the sender's input. It's also one of the receiver's input, and it, like, breaks that probability analysis.
882
01:07:55.335 --> 01:07:58.235
Now the the reason I bring this up is because
883
01:07:58.940 --> 01:08:00.400
if you have a nonreused
884
01:08:00.700 --> 01:08:01.599
address fundraiser
885
01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:09.964
so with with the Tali coin fundraiser, it was obvious. Right? It was a fixed address. Everyone could see how much was being raised on chain. They could see who was donating to
886
01:08:10.265 --> 01:08:22.989
it. If they were sending from KYC exchanges or if they were KYC'd a couple hops away, they could combine that. So, like, a chain surveillance firm could see, this donation came from Cash App. I'm gonna hit Cash App up and say, who made this withdrawal?
887
01:08:23.369 --> 01:08:29.804
Cash App then sends, you know, their their their full name, their address, their phone number, their email address,
888
01:08:30.184 --> 01:08:32.204
you know, a picture of of their face,
889
01:08:33.580 --> 01:08:45.545
and then they can use that to then track more people. Now if you're not reusing addresses, it's not as easy for them, but one of the common techniques they'll do is they'll basically donate to the to the fund as well,
890
01:08:45.925 --> 01:08:46.905
and then track
891
01:08:47.285 --> 01:08:48.905
that transaction flow.
892
01:08:49.580 --> 01:08:51.440
So if if I wanted to track,
893
01:08:52.300 --> 01:08:57.520
like, the Bitcoin Smiles fundraiser and and see, you know, how those flows are moving,
894
01:08:58.025 --> 01:09:03.724
I would basically just keep sending my own Bitcoin as donations and then track each of those outputs
895
01:09:04.344 --> 01:09:10.970
and see are they getting commingled with other outputs and then try and track from there. That would be the technique that would be done. Right?
896
01:09:13.510 --> 01:09:18.255
897
01:09:18.955 --> 01:09:20.335
it would best to
898
01:09:20.635 --> 01:09:22.170
it'll be best to coinjoin it
899
01:09:22.890 --> 01:09:24.090
after you received it,
900
01:09:24.650 --> 01:09:26.350
and and in a way that doesn't
901
01:09:26.730 --> 01:09:28.510
merge all your UTXOs
902
01:09:29.050 --> 01:09:31.230
into as sort of one big input.
903
01:09:32.715 --> 01:09:34.074
904
01:09:34.875 --> 01:09:40.014
if if your if your coin join is just merging all of them together and doing a coin join, that doesn't help either.
905
01:09:40.470 --> 01:09:42.890
So then there's another aspect, coin selection.
906
01:09:43.830 --> 01:09:48.585
So should we talk about coin selection? Nick, you wanna talk about coin selection a little bit? Yeah. Sure.
907
01:09:49.765 --> 01:09:52.345
908
01:09:53.205 --> 01:09:55.225
you can choose which UTXOs.
909
01:09:55.605 --> 01:09:58.770
If using a good wallet, you can choose which inputs,
910
01:09:59.630 --> 01:10:01.889
are gonna be used for that Bitcoin transaction.
911
01:10:02.909 --> 01:10:03.650
So ideally,
912
01:10:04.505 --> 01:10:06.605
maybe if if you're receiving donations,
913
01:10:07.785 --> 01:10:11.405
and and you would hide the privacy of your donors and and yourself,
914
01:10:12.350 --> 01:10:15.170
You would say you would you might select each,
915
01:10:15.790 --> 01:10:16.290
donation
916
01:10:16.670 --> 01:10:17.170
input
917
01:10:17.790 --> 01:10:20.050
and and use each input individually,
918
01:10:20.430 --> 01:10:21.650
like, one at a time,
919
01:10:22.335 --> 01:10:30.275
in in a coin join transaction to break that link, without yeah. With instead of sort of merging them all into 1 and then and then coin joining,
920
01:10:30.699 --> 01:10:32.719
sort of defeat the purpose a bit.
921
01:10:34.860 --> 01:10:37.679
922
01:10:39.755 --> 01:10:43.934
I think it's kinda cool that BTC pay server actually has an integrated wallet.
923
01:10:46.395 --> 01:10:50.950
Pavel, do you know, is that in does that integrated wallet have coin control in it? It does. Right?
924
01:10:51.970 --> 01:10:53.670
925
01:10:53.970 --> 01:10:55.190
we do label
926
01:10:55.730 --> 01:10:56.230
certain
927
01:10:56.745 --> 01:11:01.245
invoices. For example, if you have a crowdfunding, we'll label it crowdfunding for you,
928
01:11:01.864 --> 01:11:09.350
and we try to auto label as much as we can so that we can make it easier for you to know where your, you know,
929
01:11:10.370 --> 01:11:17.255
what you ex your tech service belong to, what store, or what app. So we try to do a little bit automation on on that end.
930
01:11:18.515 --> 01:11:32.744
So, yeah, you you can with BDC pay server pretty easily, like, you know, label use labels in order to send funds from from the wallet. Also, that wallet, if you're a self hosting server, relies on your full node
931
01:11:33.204 --> 01:11:35.204
and on top of that has a full,
932
01:11:35.525 --> 01:11:39.304
hardware wallet support. So you can use your hardware wallets,
933
01:11:39.990 --> 01:11:41.350
with your full load,
934
01:11:41.750 --> 01:11:43.930
on your own server. So you don't have to
935
01:11:44.470 --> 01:11:53.345
leak information to third party servers or whatever web, wallets that, third parties are hosting. For example, I know,
936
01:11:53.725 --> 01:11:56.385
Trezor or whatever wallet we are talking about.
937
01:11:56.970 --> 01:12:13.764
So our wallet is, pretty good privacy wise, but I'm not sure how, many people are actually using it to do. It it is we recently, like, released an update and improved its UI as well. So I think it's we're we're getting there when it comes to usability of our vault.
938
01:12:14.940 --> 01:12:17.260
939
01:12:17.900 --> 01:12:20.480
with with with, I guess, like, obfuscating
940
01:12:20.860 --> 01:12:24.805
all the donors and and, you know, doing coin joining afterwards is that,
941
01:12:25.425 --> 01:12:28.565
the reality is that, you know, you do lose some visibility
942
01:12:29.265 --> 01:12:32.645
as as as a donation and crowdfunding source. So,
943
01:12:33.350 --> 01:12:51.925
you know, on one hand, like, it's great privacy, like, no one should know what I'm doing with the funds, but there is one trade off in in the fact that, like, you know, if you are trying to be as visible as possible, just trying to be accountable, trying to, like, you know, if if I think we've we've seen it a little bit with this tally coin stuff is is, you know, there were people,
944
01:12:52.690 --> 01:13:01.775
out there kind of threatening, like, hey. I don't think you're actually, like, gonna donate the funds. I'm I wanna hold you accountable. I wanna see, you know, the donations going off. So I guess,
945
01:13:02.415 --> 01:13:04.195
there's sort of an aspect of
946
01:13:04.495 --> 01:13:08.114
of of having, like, super visibility for for transparency
947
01:13:08.415 --> 01:13:11.620
sake, and then also just wanting to protect yourselves,
948
01:13:12.160 --> 01:13:18.435
from from a privacy perspective. I'm not sure if you guys have any thoughts on that. Yeah. That's a really good point. So, actually,
949
01:13:18.975 --> 01:13:19.475
950
01:13:19.775 --> 01:13:21.875
in defense of them, they actually do support,
951
01:13:24.989 --> 01:13:28.090
a unique address for each donation, and they also support,
952
01:13:28.469 --> 01:13:29.929
Pay NIMs and other things.
953
01:13:30.525 --> 01:13:32.065
But the people running this fundraiser
954
01:13:32.365 --> 01:13:32.865
chose
955
01:13:33.405 --> 01:13:39.265
they they elected not to use those, and they elected to use a single address in the name of transparency.
956
01:13:40.170 --> 01:13:45.230
So, yeah, I I definitely think there's a there's a conversation to be had here as as to what,
957
01:13:46.490 --> 01:13:50.335
trade off you're gonna make. Is is the transparency really worth,
958
01:13:51.115 --> 01:13:55.535
how much privacy has been given up, for the recipients and and the donors.
959
01:13:57.410 --> 01:14:05.429
Because personally, I I would I would think that there there's gotta be better ways to prove that you're gonna use the funds in a in a
960
01:14:06.475 --> 01:14:06.975
appropriate
961
01:14:07.515 --> 01:14:12.335
manner. I think there's there's probably some better way to do, like, a proof of reserves in some,
962
01:14:12.795 --> 01:14:14.255
maybe more private way,
963
01:14:15.270 --> 01:14:19.610
and and also prove that the donations are going out in sort of a,
964
01:14:20.790 --> 01:14:23.450
using the fund putting the the funds to good use.
965
01:14:24.775 --> 01:14:32.155
966
01:14:32.590 --> 01:14:33.890
Because at the end of the day,
967
01:14:34.990 --> 01:14:40.350
unless you go and, you know, film every person you give the Bitcoin to, you could
968
01:14:41.415 --> 01:14:43.995
which has its own privacy risks, you could just,
969
01:14:44.935 --> 01:14:48.315
you know, send out those funds to a 1000000 different addresses,
970
01:14:48.730 --> 01:15:00.175
and you control all those 1000000 different addresses anyway. Yeah. You go out and you say these 1000000 addresses are truckers and not actually. But the alternative, if you don't reuse an address and you use Coin Control and you use CoinJoin,
971
01:15:00.795 --> 01:15:03.614
you can still if you want to docs all recipients
972
01:15:03.994 --> 01:15:07.195
on video, you could still do that. Right? Like, you like, is
973
01:15:08.250 --> 01:15:11.310
I wonder, like, is there, like like, on GoFundMe
974
01:15:12.250 --> 01:15:16.025
on GoFundMe when someone raises money on GoFundMe, which
975
01:15:16.585 --> 01:15:22.765
is is is by far, you know, getting way more volume than Bitcoin fundraising does.
976
01:15:23.360 --> 01:15:26.980
You're trusting GoFundMe of the total amount that has been raised.
977
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:37.324
Right? There's no transparency in that regard. You're sending bank transfers or credit card payments, and then you're you don't have any visibility into where it goes afterwards. Is there, like, really that much
978
01:15:38.264 --> 01:15:44.890
is there are you really even getting that much of transparency benefit? Is it even demanded by the market? Like, is that even something that Yeah.
979
01:15:45.270 --> 01:15:50.765
980
01:15:51.705 --> 01:15:56.125
recipient of these donations and that you're that you're spending them in in good ways.
981
01:15:56.690 --> 01:15:57.510
I don't think,
982
01:15:58.369 --> 01:15:58.869
reusing
983
01:15:59.329 --> 01:16:02.230
an address and having having, like, a publicly visible
984
01:16:02.610 --> 01:16:04.550
total donated is really
985
01:16:06.095 --> 01:16:08.755
is really necessary for for things like this.
986
01:16:09.375 --> 01:16:14.160
Yeah. As you say, if you still want to go out and film handing the money out,
987
01:16:15.280 --> 01:16:16.020
the only
988
01:16:16.320 --> 01:16:18.820
only discrepancy there would be that maybe
989
01:16:19.520 --> 01:16:24.765
the the fundraiser received more money than you gave out, and and no one's able to prove that.
990
01:16:25.545 --> 01:16:27.085
But I I think that
991
01:16:27.705 --> 01:16:29.885
that's not really the biggest concern.
992
01:16:30.745 --> 01:16:33.320
993
01:16:33.860 --> 01:16:41.239
I'm choosing to trust the organizer of the raise. Or if it's just an individual, I'm trusting the individual. I, like, I don't
994
01:16:41.685 --> 01:16:46.264
I don't need to have insight into what happens to that money afterwards, but maybe I'm
995
01:16:46.724 --> 01:16:51.430
996
01:16:52.070 --> 01:17:12.890
there is a a difference here between, like, being an individual and accepting crowd fund. Like, you know, say I'm an individual, and I can go out and set up my BTC pay server or sat sale and and go out there and, like, pitch myself as and, you know, advertise and say, hey. You know, I'm a trucker. You know, please donate to me. But then there is another there is a trade off here, like another side of the coin where,
997
01:17:13.430 --> 01:17:19.655
we don't actually, like, know all the truckers addresses. So we actually have to go out there and and sort of be,
998
01:17:20.035 --> 01:17:21.015
you know, a
999
01:17:21.795 --> 01:17:23.895
a custodian for for donations.
1000
01:17:24.355 --> 01:17:26.295
Like, you donate to this master.
1001
01:17:27.240 --> 01:17:30.620
You know, it could be multisig, you know, so you're so you're trusting,
1002
01:17:31.160 --> 01:17:32.140
multiple individuals,
1003
01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:37.065
instead of just having to trust a single one. But there is kind of a difference here
1004
01:17:37.445 --> 01:17:39.045
in in in setting up,
1005
01:17:39.605 --> 01:17:52.140
this for yourself. And then and then how do you go out and find all the truckers to donate to? So, like, there's a little bit of a problem here, and I think, PTC pay server. I was actually, like, you know, looking at your sites and everything. I actually like your your guys' approach.
1006
01:17:52.505 --> 01:18:13.415
1007
01:18:13.795 --> 01:18:16.215
and this idea of lowering friction. Right?
1008
01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:21.500
And so maybe to to me, when you're especially when you're talking about a situation
1009
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:23.900
where you're dealing with a hostile state,
1010
01:18:25.985 --> 01:18:30.244
Bitcoin should be able to obviate the need for large centralized
1011
01:18:30.545 --> 01:18:33.525
crowd funds. If you have many small individual
1012
01:18:34.550 --> 01:18:35.050
raises,
1013
01:18:35.750 --> 01:18:42.409
that are going direct to those individuals and we already see this with the protests where where individuals at protests
1014
01:18:42.949 --> 01:18:43.690
are posting
1015
01:18:44.295 --> 01:18:47.594
social media posts about their experiences. They're posting videos.
1016
01:18:47.974 --> 01:18:50.554
Now you can imagine a world with BIP 47
1017
01:18:51.574 --> 01:18:52.074
or
1018
01:18:53.340 --> 01:19:06.895
Bolt 12 or something like that on the lightning side or lightning addresses or something like that, where, like, a trucker can put a QR code on their truck. And if you see that if you see that QR code on the thing, you can pay to it. And the reason almost is, like
1019
01:19:07.720 --> 01:19:17.315
the reason we don't see that as much is because there is a level of friction to running a BTC pay server or sat sale. Right? Like, individual truckers can't figure that out, or maybe they
1020
01:19:17.695 --> 01:19:22.675
can, but it there's definitely a level of friction there as opposed to just downloading a mobile wallet,
1021
01:19:23.135 --> 01:19:30.570
getting your BIP 47 QR code, and, you know, painting it on your truck or posting it on social media or something. Right?
1022
01:19:31.989 --> 01:19:36.454
1023
01:19:36.755 --> 01:19:39.074
installing Satsail is the easiest thing in the world.
1024
01:19:39.954 --> 01:19:53.205
It's it's definitely not the easiest thing to set up sometimes, even though maybe for Bitcoiners, it's not too bad. But for people who have never touched Bitcoin before, they don't know what a node is. They don't know what a VPS is. They don't know any of these things are.
1025
01:19:53.585 --> 01:19:57.525
It's much much easier for them to download a mobile wallet that would support,
1026
01:19:58.190 --> 01:19:59.650
these, yeah, reusable,
1027
01:20:01.070 --> 01:20:02.930
payment codes and and other,
1028
01:20:04.989 --> 01:20:07.090
more private methods of receiving donations.
1029
01:20:08.775 --> 01:20:10.315
1030
01:20:12.455 --> 01:20:22.300
1031
01:20:22.680 --> 01:20:26.220
at the end of the day, we still don't have a perfect solution. So
1032
01:20:26.725 --> 01:20:27.465
I'm just
1033
01:20:28.245 --> 01:20:28.745
excited
1034
01:20:29.205 --> 01:20:38.310
about the future development and what people will come up with and may perhaps make BDC base server obsolete one day, you know, making better things and improving protocols
1035
01:20:39.090 --> 01:20:40.770
and developing things that,
1036
01:20:41.410 --> 01:20:42.470
are easy for,
1037
01:20:43.485 --> 01:20:58.110
I guess, newbies to use. So I agree with you. It is much easier to just paint a QR code, on a truck or, you know, just print it out and put it in store then installing a payment server. But, yeah, payment server have their own use case.
1038
01:20:58.410 --> 01:20:59.710
It's just a different,
1039
01:21:00.170 --> 01:21:04.304
you know, we are just trying to help people out any way we can, but
1040
01:21:04.605 --> 01:21:13.429
there needs to be a much easier way to to, you know, accept, basically, donations. And, yeah, I'm just excited and hopeful
1041
01:21:13.730 --> 01:21:18.310
that we'll have a solution one day. Maybe not tomorrow, but who knows?
1042
01:21:19.425 --> 01:21:21.605
1043
01:21:21.985 --> 01:21:24.085
don't you guys also have that sort of,
1044
01:21:24.864 --> 01:21:27.525
uncle Jim sort of setup where I could
1045
01:21:28.050 --> 01:21:32.790
host my BTC pay server, and then I could make sort of like
1046
01:21:33.330 --> 01:21:43.015
sub servers. I'm not sure what you call them, but like sort of different donation accounts for, like, a whole bunch of my friends, for example. And and they would have their own individual,
1047
01:21:43.715 --> 01:21:44.855
donation portal,
1048
01:21:45.680 --> 01:21:47.620
that would be sort of specific for
1049
01:21:48.080 --> 01:21:50.260
those those funds for receiving for them.
1050
01:21:51.040 --> 01:21:54.855
Would you be able to speak a little bit about that? So I think that's a really cool idea that
1051
01:21:55.315 --> 01:21:56.454
maybe, for example,
1052
01:21:56.755 --> 01:22:03.175
instead of having 1 big crowdfunding platform, you could have sure. One person might host it, but
1053
01:22:03.510 --> 01:22:04.570
the individual,
1054
01:22:06.070 --> 01:22:06.570
donation
1055
01:22:07.510 --> 01:22:12.010
the the donations go to, like, a specific individual. So you could have, like, one,
1056
01:22:12.585 --> 01:22:15.245
donation gateway for each trucker, for example,
1057
01:22:15.865 --> 01:22:22.220
and it would go directly to them, and it would still be in a more, sort of privacy enhancing way by not reusing addresses.
1058
01:22:23.240 --> 01:22:24.220
What are your thoughts?
1059
01:22:24.920 --> 01:22:39.220
1060
01:22:40.020 --> 01:22:42.680
we call these people third party hosts. So,
1061
01:22:43.765 --> 01:22:50.025
we obviously don't envision a world where and everybody needs to run a server in order to accept Bitcoin payments,
1062
01:22:50.565 --> 01:22:51.545
but we
1063
01:22:51.845 --> 01:22:54.920
like to think about it as having, as many,
1064
01:22:55.780 --> 01:23:14.190
BTC based server factories around the world, community members running BTC based servers. For example, in El Salvador, we have community members running us BTC pay for, you know, their local community and the onboarding merchants on their own beat on on their BTC based server and later on educating merchants
1065
01:23:14.810 --> 01:23:27.005
about, you know, them them deploying their own servers. So for on chain transactions, this works well. People just need to input their own x pub key or public key, and it is easy. The the tricky part to,
1066
01:23:27.405 --> 01:23:27.905
which
1067
01:23:28.510 --> 01:23:32.770
we have problem with right now is lighting network and how do we, you know,
1068
01:23:33.630 --> 01:23:43.825
allow people to accept Bitcoin payments in a non custodial way. Because if you're sharing your BTC based server with your local community, you need to take custody
1069
01:23:45.245 --> 01:23:51.060
of of of their funds while the Lightning Network, and this is where we are struggling at the moment. There are some things
1070
01:23:51.520 --> 01:24:01.844
that we are, thinking of. For example, having a dedicated b two c pay server app, where one day you will be able to run a node on your phone, lightning node, and then connect to that server.
1071
01:24:02.225 --> 01:24:02.725
So,
1072
01:24:03.410 --> 01:24:11.910
you know, we there are solutions, but we are just, you know, exploring all the options. But, yeah, simply said, people can open up their BTC
1073
01:24:12.215 --> 01:24:16.235
server to anybody or to their friends and invite them or, you know,
1074
01:24:17.175 --> 01:24:27.970
so that anybody can basically accept payments, and you are just hosting a server. So, yeah, it's uncle Jim type of thing as you mentioned. So I'm really glad that you brought it up because I completely forgot
1075
01:24:28.430 --> 01:24:29.115
about it.
1076
01:24:29.675 --> 01:24:30.975
1077
01:24:31.595 --> 01:24:33.535
something I was thinking about. So
1078
01:24:34.235 --> 01:24:34.735
maybe,
1079
01:24:35.915 --> 01:24:40.400
like, the main so the person who's running the the shared BTC pay server,
1080
01:24:40.860 --> 01:24:44.160
maybe the lightning payments go to them and they hold
1081
01:24:47.015 --> 01:24:47.515
automatically
1082
01:24:47.975 --> 01:24:53.115
withdraw after, say, like, I don't know, 10,000 sets or something that it makes
1083
01:24:53.450 --> 01:24:54.670
an on chain transaction
1084
01:24:54.970 --> 01:24:55.870
going to,
1085
01:24:57.210 --> 01:24:58.110
going to the
1086
01:24:58.650 --> 01:24:59.390
to the
1087
01:25:00.090 --> 01:25:00.670
the actual,
1088
01:25:02.525 --> 01:25:05.505
the specific individuals. So you you make a lightning payment.
1089
01:25:06.605 --> 01:25:08.465
You're intending it to go to,
1090
01:25:09.690 --> 01:25:12.350
someone who's using that shared BTC pay server.
1091
01:25:13.210 --> 01:25:22.025
The the lightning payment actually goes to the the sort of the main the main, person who's running the payment server, it goes to their lightning node, but then say maybe after,
1092
01:25:22.725 --> 01:25:26.105
some amount of sets have have built up in that in that,
1093
01:25:27.350 --> 01:25:30.570
on their side, then they could, like, automatically withdraw it maybe,
1094
01:25:31.590 --> 01:25:32.890
to to the individual
1095
01:25:33.670 --> 01:25:41.935
1096
01:25:42.395 --> 01:25:45.054
a layer 3 running on top of l 2,
1097
01:25:45.820 --> 01:25:52.560
which allows people to have, like, internal BDC pay lightning bullets, but it all goes to one node, and then it is distributed
1098
01:25:52.860 --> 01:25:54.025
to them in a way.
1099
01:25:54.505 --> 01:26:01.165
Yeah. There there are, like, ways to, you know, hack around it, but for having it, like, to truly known custodial,
1100
01:26:02.910 --> 01:26:04.850
it is a bit tricky. And,
1101
01:26:05.630 --> 01:26:07.730
yeah, we are just exploring solutions
1102
01:26:08.190 --> 01:26:24.909
because we don't want to put, a target on people running instances. There are instances of BTC pay server that have 10,000 users. So you have one guy hosting it for 10,000 merchants around the world, and he's doing it for on chain completely free of charge. People import their own, public keys.
1103
01:26:25.370 --> 01:26:29.550
They accept they receive payments. He's not a custodian. He does not really, you know,
1104
01:26:30.145 --> 01:26:34.005
have custody of their funds. He cannot steal their funds. But with Lightning,
1105
01:26:34.305 --> 01:26:37.364
yeah, it's a hot wallet. It's a little bit of tricky. And,
1106
01:26:37.750 --> 01:26:49.995
you know, in some wicked world, per perhaps it can even have some, you know, legal implications for whoever he is hosting because he can be considered if, you know, government is stupid enough to try
1107
01:26:50.615 --> 01:26:52.235
to do it. He can be considered,
1108
01:26:52.855 --> 01:26:53.415
you know,
1109
01:26:54.455 --> 01:26:56.635
basically a money transmitter. So,
1110
01:26:58.210 --> 01:27:00.230
1111
01:27:00.690 --> 01:27:04.230
Yeah. At that point, they're they're receiving the funds, and they've got some responsibility.
1112
01:27:04.690 --> 01:27:11.675
1113
01:27:12.135 --> 01:27:22.270
with the ability to accept payments at any time, then, ideally, you can onboard people to your instance. They just install b t c pay server remote mobile application that allows you to connect to a server,
1114
01:27:22.755 --> 01:27:28.775
and then everybody are happy. Nobody's custodian euro funds. You're running node, lightning node on your phone.
1115
01:27:29.395 --> 01:27:31.735
And yeah. But yeah. That's,
1116
01:27:32.140 --> 01:27:41.440
hopefully, we will get there one day. We are, thinking about it. It's one of our goals this year to create a dedicated app so that anybody can install it, then choose a server,
1117
01:27:41.805 --> 01:27:57.350
or, you know, host their their own and then accept payments. But, yeah, it's it's tricky. It's not an easy things to thing to solve, but we are we are very committed of it. It's one of our top priorities this, I guess, year and next as well. Yeah. I could definitely see something very,
1118
01:27:58.155 --> 01:28:13.660
1119
01:28:14.380 --> 01:28:21.205
I can definitely see something like that where, like, the BTC pay, uncle gyms can can kinda still accept lightning without being, like, a custodian.
1120
01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:27.260
There's arguments of, like, whether or not there's, like, you know, at any point, they can run off with the funds, but, you know, at that point,
1121
01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:31.465
you know, it's like donations or payments or something. You know, it's just temporarily trusted and,
1122
01:28:34.344 --> 01:28:39.085
Uncle Jim. So, ideally, you know, maybe it's not like tens of thousands of users using
1123
01:28:39.460 --> 01:28:43.480
using 1, but I would love to have seen, like, a situation where it's not just,
1124
01:28:43.860 --> 01:28:47.400
you know, like, 3 or 4 people taking charge of
1125
01:28:47.945 --> 01:28:50.685
of a such a massive, like, you know, donation
1126
01:28:50.985 --> 01:28:53.165
crowdfunding effort, and it's more like,
1127
01:28:53.625 --> 01:28:56.925
you know, like, 20 to 100 different uncle gyms.
1128
01:28:58.050 --> 01:29:02.870
But at the same time, like, we almost go back to it. Like, you never really know how big
1129
01:29:03.490 --> 01:29:08.215
something's gonna be or how, you know, how mad the government's gonna be at you afterwards,
1130
01:29:08.835 --> 01:29:16.640
when we're doing when we're talking about Bitcoin. Like, you know, once an address is out there, it's out there. And then everyone in the world can decide that they wanna donate it.
1131
01:29:17.100 --> 01:29:21.440
So it's it's kind of like things that we kinda have to think about before,
1132
01:29:22.965 --> 01:29:27.465
you know, goes back to, like, the transparency thing too. Like, sure. We wanna be super transparent,
1133
01:29:27.845 --> 01:29:29.465
and then they just use one address.
1134
01:29:30.250 --> 01:29:33.150
You know, the things that we have to sort of think about before,
1135
01:29:34.090 --> 01:29:36.270
we get involved in in, like, crowdfunding,
1136
01:29:36.890 --> 01:29:39.790
especially if we're doing it on behalf of other people. And,
1137
01:29:40.255 --> 01:29:58.515
yeah, I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Just just the idea that I would love to see more, like, uncle Jim's involved in in crowdfunding efforts and, you know, maybe even, like, you know, rotating out uncle Jim's when when the time is right where it's just not, like, one single point of failure or, you know, 33 or 5 single point of failure or things like that.
1138
01:29:59.135 --> 01:30:03.155
1139
01:30:03.590 --> 01:30:06.250
in a way and having as many options out there
1140
01:30:06.630 --> 01:30:12.329
and, you know, decentralizing, making it harder for people to attack a single point, it is.
1141
01:30:12.985 --> 01:30:19.804
I guess, that's that's what matters. If you we I don't envision a world where everybody needs to run a node, but, yeah,
1142
01:30:20.330 --> 01:30:22.989
if we can make it easier so that, you know,
1143
01:30:23.369 --> 01:30:30.615
we have, like, servers all around the the world, it it will be harder for government or whoever is trying to attack.
1144
01:30:31.395 --> 01:30:31.895
Yeah.
1145
01:30:32.275 --> 01:30:35.735
I guess that that that that's one of the things I'm also excited
1146
01:30:36.115 --> 01:30:41.480
excited about when it comes to B2C based server. Just, you know, making it hard for people to,
1147
01:30:42.260 --> 01:30:44.440
have a centralization of power
1148
01:30:44.835 --> 01:30:55.469
against us. So just having as much options and as much as alternatives. Because at this point, you have, like, maybe I I haven't counted it, but you maybe have, like, 20 or 30 or 50,
1149
01:30:56.250 --> 01:30:56.989
in a way,
1150
01:30:57.290 --> 01:31:02.670
small BTC based server providers and people, you know, just backing BTC based server locally,
1151
01:31:03.175 --> 01:31:10.475
translating it to their own language, and, you know, making their own payment customized payment processor for their local communities.
1152
01:31:11.160 --> 01:31:21.335
That's that that's our goal. We are just here to make software, and it's up to people how they will use it and distribute it and, you know, make it hard, for for government or or the attacker to, you know,
1153
01:31:22.275 --> 01:31:29.815
chase them or stop them. And it's also about circular economy, I want to say. With Bitcoin Smiles, for example, for us, it is very easy.
1154
01:31:30.469 --> 01:31:31.849
We don't have, like, concerns,
1155
01:31:32.469 --> 01:31:32.969
like,
1156
01:31:33.270 --> 01:31:52.170
Canadian trackers have, but it is very easy for us when we don't have to, you know, convert Bitcoin. Because I've been working with nonprofits for now 4 years with BDC based. Right? I constantly try to assist them, and there are so many things. I mean, we we are talking here about all of these technical things like coin join, pain join. But when it comes to these nonprofits,
1157
01:31:52.470 --> 01:31:57.675
trust me, for them, they barely know how to use the wallet. It's so confusing for for them.
1158
01:31:58.135 --> 01:32:13.590
They then try to, you know, sell it, and then they get back to us. So we should have sold the Bitcoin. We should have kept it and things like that. So, like, circular economy can also make, things way easier and much more resilient in in my opinion as well, reducing the essentials.
1159
01:32:14.095 --> 01:32:24.660
1160
01:32:25.200 --> 01:32:26.340
have dental care,
1161
01:32:26.720 --> 01:32:27.860
for local Salvadorans.
1162
01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:35.594
El Salvador has this, you know, this legal tender law. If you don't if you're not aware that Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador,
1163
01:32:36.054 --> 01:32:39.594
you're probably living under a rock. But, that means that
1164
01:32:39.960 --> 01:32:46.060
all the all that money that is raised, all that Bitcoin that is raised can directly be spent on whatever items they need.
1165
01:32:46.440 --> 01:32:47.420
Right? But in,
1166
01:32:48.565 --> 01:32:50.185
in the in the case of,
1167
01:32:50.805 --> 01:32:52.105
the Canadian protesters,
1168
01:32:53.765 --> 01:32:54.585
there isn't
1169
01:32:55.260 --> 01:32:58.159
necessarily that ability to spend the Bitcoin directly.
1170
01:32:59.739 --> 01:33:06.574
And and as a result, what you usually see people recommend is, okay, then go cash it out at a regulated service provider,
1171
01:33:06.954 --> 01:33:08.175
a regulated brokerage.
1172
01:33:08.635 --> 01:33:14.139
That comes with KYC. That comes with the potential of getting blacklisted at one of those exchanges.
1173
01:33:14.679 --> 01:33:19.019
So, Pavel, like, in your experience when you're when you're when you're doing these raises
1174
01:33:19.400 --> 01:33:23.635
for places that are not El Salvador, like in any of the other countries besides El Salvador.
1175
01:33:25.295 --> 01:33:34.969
From, like, a practical point of view, like, how do people go about that? Like, how is what techniques they use? What is what are the strategies that people think about in terms of turning that fundraise Bitcoin into,
1176
01:33:36.150 --> 01:33:38.489
actual real world things they need?
1177
01:33:39.795 --> 01:33:43.815
1178
01:33:44.995 --> 01:33:46.455
The reason why it was
1179
01:33:47.130 --> 01:33:50.030
so easy for me to, you know, work on it is because
1180
01:33:50.490 --> 01:33:51.390
we just did,
1181
01:33:51.770 --> 01:34:01.145
did entire setup on top of Bitcoin. So we did not Bitcoin Smiles is basically just a community project. It is not a proper nonprofit. We didn't we don't have any,
1182
01:34:01.925 --> 01:34:21.445
paperwork setup. We didn't have to do any of that in order to to raise funds and change people life. It it basically was the 2 of us having a chat like we are now. And I asked him, like, okay. What can I do to help you? And then he told me this story about, you know, people having dentures and not having access to medical care. And I was like, okay.
1183
01:34:21.800 --> 01:34:33.525
Let's create a crowdfunding. And he was like, well, you know, I'm not really a num you don't have to be. Like, you can just do things on top of Bitcoin, and you don't have to care about all of these things. Because if you don't convert it,
1184
01:34:34.145 --> 01:34:41.290
if you, you know, just spend it directly on patients and medication and, you know, all sorts of things. Like, you
1185
01:34:41.750 --> 01:34:52.065
you don't have to go through all of these complexities. And the reason why we were able to move this fast with Bitcoin Smiles is we removed all of these government complexities that,
1186
01:34:52.525 --> 01:34:54.385
people usually have problems. Because,
1187
01:34:54.949 --> 01:35:29.520
with BTC based survey, the foundation a foundation that funds, of of couple of, you know, developers to build BTC based server, It's a proper nonprofit, and it was pain in the ass to to form it to I think it took us a year and a half to to do it properly. Like, that is insane. With with Bitcoin Smiles, it was just 2 of us. We we raised 2 Bitcoin, and we were immediately, like, able to change people lives. So that's, one thing I want to point out that you don't, with Bitcoin, you can do things that, you know, depends on the way you use it. But, yeah, I I you get the point what what I'm trying to say. I'm just, you know, too excited.
1188
01:35:30.220 --> 01:35:31.360
Yeah. So
1189
01:35:32.300 --> 01:35:36.395
1190
01:35:36.855 --> 01:35:41.200
Bitcoin directly and and it's legal tender there. It's very easy for them to go and spend it.
1191
01:35:42.080 --> 01:35:45.380
But for the Canadian truckers who have now received this Bitcoin,
1192
01:35:46.080 --> 01:35:51.925
and and they can't even go and cash it out because these these UTXO's are all in this huge blacklisted,
1193
01:35:53.025 --> 01:35:54.725
this huge list of of,
1194
01:35:55.905 --> 01:36:00.920
transactions that UTXOs that these or the exchanges aren't allowed to process.
1195
01:36:01.700 --> 01:36:07.960
So how how do the truckers actually go and spend that Bitcoin that they've now received? I think it's a bit of an issue.
1196
01:36:08.575 --> 01:36:10.675
And I saw some people suggesting that
1197
01:36:11.335 --> 01:36:11.835
that,
1198
01:36:12.735 --> 01:36:15.315
bitcoin is in Canada should should go and
1199
01:36:16.030 --> 01:36:19.010
go on and and buy bitcoin. Might have been me. Yeah.
1200
01:36:20.190 --> 01:36:25.250
It's a really good opportunity to go and and and get some, like, no k y c Bitcoin perhaps,
1201
01:36:25.935 --> 01:36:34.515
1202
01:36:35.080 --> 01:36:38.680
it just might be a good opportunity to get no KYC stats because,
1203
01:36:39.160 --> 01:36:41.180
it's just something that I do. I like Bitcoin.
1204
01:36:41.845 --> 01:36:52.489
If I if I know I'm gonna hang out with Bitcoiners, like, I always make sure to have some cash on me so they could buy their drinks for them, and then they they pay me in Bitcoin. Like, I know at at some point at 2 in the morning, they're just gonna only have sats,
1205
01:36:53.670 --> 01:36:59.865
and I don't see why it would be a especially if Bitcoin fundraising for protest becomes more common,
1206
01:37:00.805 --> 01:37:08.345
because, I mean, obviously, it's highlighted now for the Canadian protest. But my work with with with Alex Gladstein at HRF,
1207
01:37:10.550 --> 01:37:15.610
it it became really obvious. Like, that's that's the main use case for
1208
01:37:16.915 --> 01:37:21.335
dissidents and activists around the world. Like, if you live in an authoritarian country
1209
01:37:21.875 --> 01:37:25.060
and you are a political you're politically persecuted,
1210
01:37:25.700 --> 01:37:26.680
against the government,
1211
01:37:27.140 --> 01:37:29.800
you are gonna be completely financially blockaded.
1212
01:37:30.660 --> 01:37:31.880
A 100% blockaded.
1213
01:37:32.455 --> 01:37:35.675
If you tell them they can just receive funds from anywhere in the world,
1214
01:37:35.975 --> 01:37:44.620
their eyes light up. It's obvious. It's an obvious use case to them. Now once you start going down the rabbit hole of you gotta use BTC pay server and you gotta,
1215
01:37:45.160 --> 01:37:53.705
you know, you gotta you gotta run you gotta run a server, and then they're like, how do how do I make sure the government doesn't know I'm running server, and then you gotta maintain coin control and all that stuff?
1216
01:37:54.165 --> 01:37:55.465
It gets a little bit
1217
01:37:55.844 --> 01:37:59.864
more dicey for them. But even if you see someone like Navalny of Russia,
1218
01:38:00.940 --> 01:38:09.680
they're still using a fixed used address a fixed reused address because they're like, it is so powerful for us to just be able to receive the funds in the first place.
1219
01:38:10.305 --> 01:38:18.885
I was talking to one of his head lawyers at HRF's most recent, Oslo Freedom Forum, and I was trying to convince her to switch. And she's like, I honestly, like, I don't care.
1220
01:38:19.730 --> 01:38:30.015
I Putin can know how much we're raising. He can't take it away from us. Now I strongly disagree with that premise, not only for them, but for their people that are donating to them.
1221
01:38:30.475 --> 01:38:30.975
But
1222
01:38:31.355 --> 01:38:34.015
that then the pain point immediately becomes,
1223
01:38:35.370 --> 01:38:37.710
how do you actually utilize the funds?
1224
01:38:38.250 --> 01:38:40.190
And in El Salvador, that's obvious.
1225
01:38:41.210 --> 01:38:46.185
And I'm curious, Pavel. And and by the way, your the the thing you mentioned about the nonprofit makes a lot
1226
01:38:46.805 --> 01:38:52.825
it hits really hard for me because, you know, I'm helping I'm a cofounder of OpenSats for open source funding,
1227
01:38:53.180 --> 01:38:59.210
and it took us fucking forever to get our nonprofit status. Like and there's so much paperwork. It's just a pain in the ass.
1228
01:39:00.225 --> 01:39:07.125
But yeah. So so how what do you advise them to do, dude? I mean, gift cards, I guess, is an option. It's not an ideal option.
1229
01:39:09.160 --> 01:39:13.260
Maybe, like, linking up with other Bitcoiners that are maybe ideologically motivated
1230
01:39:13.880 --> 01:39:19.915
that, you know, rather than just selling it to random bit corners at a protest, it's like, I'm ideologically motivated.
1231
01:39:20.455 --> 01:39:23.595
Reach out to them via, like, signal or some kind of encrypted channel
1232
01:39:23.930 --> 01:39:27.710
or even better at, you know, in person in a dark pub or something,
1233
01:39:28.090 --> 01:39:30.350
and be like, you know, will you buy
1234
01:39:31.445 --> 01:39:40.790
a couple $1,000 worth of Bitcoin so that I can go out and buy fuel or whatever, food or whatever people need? Like, how do you how do you frame it? How do you think about it?
1235
01:39:42.710 --> 01:39:45.130
1236
01:39:45.510 --> 01:39:48.090
has really been helpful in, you know,
1237
01:39:48.485 --> 01:39:50.025
onboarding all of these nonprofits.
1238
01:39:50.325 --> 01:39:55.065
Usually, they would go to us and then we would have to onboard them, but Alex and the team
1239
01:39:55.600 --> 01:40:03.199
have recently really done a great job in creating resources and also offering them help to set it up. So, basically, they offloaded all these,
1240
01:40:04.025 --> 01:40:09.625
complexities on our end so that we can develop software, and they basically educate people about,
1241
01:40:10.105 --> 01:40:13.830
how to use funds and, how to convert them. So
1242
01:40:14.210 --> 01:40:14.690
I think,
1243
01:40:15.250 --> 01:40:21.910
Alex may have, a better answer for that one. But, usually, my experience so far, I'll I worked with, I think,
1244
01:40:22.635 --> 01:40:26.175
15 at this point. What they usually do is they just,
1245
01:40:26.955 --> 01:40:36.470
hold a little Bitcoin for a specific period of time. And then once a month or once in a few weeks, then they go to an exchange and convert it. And then you have those that,
1246
01:40:37.125 --> 01:40:40.985
basically auto convert it or auto sell right away. We do have some things,
1247
01:40:41.605 --> 01:40:45.864
on BTC based around set up so that you can auto sell basically right away
1248
01:40:46.410 --> 01:40:50.990
1249
01:40:51.530 --> 01:40:54.305
1250
01:40:55.105 --> 01:40:55.845
your concern
1251
01:40:56.945 --> 01:40:58.085
and how privacy,
1252
01:40:58.945 --> 01:41:02.725
how how much you care about the the privacy. So and also about
1253
01:41:03.330 --> 01:41:14.925
how capable you are technically in order to do it because, obviously, everybody will love to, you know, do it in a private way so they don't have to, you know, think about it. But, yeah, it's not really, like, we really have to handhold
1254
01:41:15.305 --> 01:41:28.239
most of these nonprofits. And it is sad truth that we mostly need to, you know, communicate bet back and forth with them, explain them, you know, go to this. You can buy gift cards if you're you know, just call it or, you know, find the local people,
1255
01:41:29.045 --> 01:41:31.545
to sell it to or, you know, things like that.
1256
01:41:32.565 --> 01:41:38.570
I think, Alex, really, they have some setup, but I cannot remember which exchange and how do they actually,
1257
01:41:39.190 --> 01:41:43.530
advise people to maybe it is best. I'm not sure. But, yeah, I think He really
1258
01:41:44.310 --> 01:41:45.290
1259
01:41:46.525 --> 01:41:49.344
which does have KYC, but is peer to peer.
1260
01:41:50.764 --> 01:41:54.864
But, obviously, Bisc could be a good option. Huddl Huddl could be a decent option.
1261
01:41:55.410 --> 01:41:56.630
With Huddl Huddl, it's,
1262
01:41:57.489 --> 01:42:03.750
yeah. With Huddl Huddl, it's centralized, but non custodial. With BISK, it's it's more censorship resistant because it's actually,
1263
01:42:05.505 --> 01:42:09.605
you know, like, run the software on your own computer and connect to people peer to peer.
1264
01:42:10.465 --> 01:42:20.270
1265
01:42:22.025 --> 01:42:24.844
1266
01:42:27.945 --> 01:42:29.005
There are some options.
1267
01:42:29.660 --> 01:42:30.160
1268
01:42:31.020 --> 01:42:31.740
I think it's,
1269
01:42:32.380 --> 01:42:33.840
it's a really big motivation
1270
01:42:34.220 --> 01:42:39.120
for really fostering that that circular economy of Bitcoin because
1271
01:42:39.885 --> 01:42:42.145
if, yeah, if if people do wanna cash out,
1272
01:42:42.685 --> 01:42:45.744
and they they can't go to a a k y c exchange,
1273
01:42:46.525 --> 01:42:50.239
then, yeah, I think we we really have to make sure that there are people,
1274
01:42:50.940 --> 01:42:51.840
willing to
1275
01:42:52.219 --> 01:42:55.760
to to buy the Bitcoin off them and transact in in Bitcoin.
1276
01:42:56.945 --> 01:43:05.364
So so, yeah, people actually need to use Bitcoin, not not just a sort of buy and hold sort of number go up. I think it's really important that actually,
1277
01:43:05.969 --> 01:43:12.869
1278
01:43:14.755 --> 01:43:22.055
Even in a world where the majority of donations are coming in through BIP 47 rather than something like, SatSale or BTCPay server,
1279
01:43:23.860 --> 01:43:25.480
Satsale and BTC pay
1280
01:43:26.820 --> 01:43:27.320
actually
1281
01:43:28.580 --> 01:43:29.240
could benefit
1282
01:43:29.620 --> 01:43:31.640
people who do these types of raises
1283
01:43:34.325 --> 01:43:35.305
indirectly because
1284
01:43:36.325 --> 01:43:41.945
they make it easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin without a trusted third party. And why is that important?
1285
01:43:42.540 --> 01:43:47.679
That's important because if you're accepting through BitPay or OpenNode, they can also get the blacklists.
1286
01:43:48.380 --> 01:43:49.520
But if we have
1287
01:43:49.875 --> 01:43:54.615
merchants around the world that are onboarded with BTC pay server or Satsale,
1288
01:43:55.875 --> 01:44:02.150
they can make their own determination of whether or not they're gonna be doing chain surveillance, whether or not they're gonna be complying with,
1289
01:44:02.929 --> 01:44:06.390
burdensome government relation or or regulation or authoritarian
1290
01:44:06.770 --> 01:44:07.270
policies.
1291
01:44:07.675 --> 01:44:10.415
And all of a sudden, those all become off ramps
1292
01:44:10.955 --> 01:44:13.135
for real goods and services. Right?
1293
01:44:16.370 --> 01:44:16.870
So
1294
01:44:17.170 --> 01:44:24.230
when you guys think about, like, merchant adoption, like, how like, is there anything like, how how can an average Bitcoiner
1295
01:44:25.875 --> 01:44:26.375
besides,
1296
01:44:26.835 --> 01:44:35.120
you know, if they actually run a business that, you know, sells goods and services and starts accepting Bitcoin in a sovereign way through something like BTCPay or SatSale?
1297
01:44:35.659 --> 01:44:36.800
Like, how can Bitcoiners
1298
01:44:37.260 --> 01:44:39.040
encourage, you know, this kind
1299
01:44:39.820 --> 01:44:44.155
of circular economy? Because I think the circular economy of Bitcoin will happen
1300
01:44:44.775 --> 01:44:45.275
eventually.
1301
01:44:46.695 --> 01:44:49.034
The question is, how do we accelerate it? Right?
1302
01:44:50.630 --> 01:44:53.450
1303
01:44:54.310 --> 01:45:01.284
paying back friends in Bitcoin. So if they they buy you a drink or they buy you dinner, you can pay them back in sets or or vice versa.
1304
01:45:01.585 --> 01:45:04.324
I think that's a really, really good way to start just
1305
01:45:04.864 --> 01:45:09.739
getting people used to it, getting people on board. They get a a mobile wallet.
1306
01:45:10.360 --> 01:45:15.580
It's it's quite easy to do. You can you can teach them, like, show them show them the ropes.
1307
01:45:16.680 --> 01:45:18.715
I think that's a really good way to get started.
1308
01:45:20.054 --> 01:45:22.155
For for actual merchants who
1309
01:45:23.175 --> 01:45:24.315
are wanting to receive
1310
01:45:24.760 --> 01:45:28.699
for getting merchants to onboard with Bitcoin, I think it's a bit trickier.
1311
01:45:30.119 --> 01:45:33.179
Getting getting them set up in a way that works for their business
1312
01:45:33.615 --> 01:45:35.715
while keeping it sort of not too technical,
1313
01:45:36.815 --> 01:45:38.195
is a little bit tricky.
1314
01:45:38.975 --> 01:45:44.620
So so with that sale, something one of the the major motivators for me to build an Umbrel app,
1315
01:45:45.240 --> 01:45:52.965
was that it's sort of like a plug and play thing now that you could buy an umbrella or get one of the Raspberry Pi and install umbrella on it,
1316
01:45:53.745 --> 01:45:56.005
download Satsail from the app store,
1317
01:45:56.400 --> 01:46:03.860
and then you've essentially got a a point of sale ready to use in your in your biz like, in person point of sale,
1318
01:46:04.605 --> 01:46:06.465
ready ready to go for your business.
1319
01:46:07.804 --> 01:46:13.025
1320
01:46:15.570 --> 01:46:16.550
1321
01:46:17.010 --> 01:46:18.550
for me, it's all about
1322
01:46:18.930 --> 01:46:22.865
local communities and, you know, having all of these people educating
1323
01:46:23.325 --> 01:46:26.865
merchants and us creating software resources,
1324
01:46:27.245 --> 01:46:29.185
documentation on how people can
1325
01:46:29.800 --> 01:46:31.180
basically take the initiative,
1326
01:46:31.800 --> 01:46:34.700
and change their local communities. Like, it started
1327
01:46:35.239 --> 01:46:39.465
very small in El Salvador and look at look at it now. I think that's a perfect
1328
01:46:40.105 --> 01:46:44.425
example of how, you know, impactful these small communities can be, and,
1329
01:46:45.145 --> 01:46:46.605
we should encourage, you know,
1330
01:46:47.250 --> 01:46:56.585
circular economy and people adopting Bitcoin on a local level. And I think that's that's the way to fight this. Because if we continue to,
1331
01:46:57.525 --> 01:47:03.625
do it in a way that we have all of these centralized services and that Bitcoin equals fiat, like,
1332
01:47:04.150 --> 01:47:14.094
we will get all these pain points and all these, problems. But once you start thinking about Bitcoin the way it's supposed to work without all these centralized parties,
1333
01:47:15.195 --> 01:47:16.495
lots of these complexities
1334
01:47:17.114 --> 01:47:17.614
actually,
1335
01:47:18.875 --> 01:47:20.014
don't exist anymore.
1336
01:47:20.740 --> 01:47:28.280
1337
01:47:28.785 --> 01:47:31.045
into this. You could even set up something where,
1338
01:47:31.425 --> 01:47:39.590
you you know, at at protests, I would imagine, you know, there's still a lot of people out there, like, you know, buying water for everyone and distributing that to the the protesters,
1339
01:47:39.969 --> 01:48:15.139
water, food, you know, utilities, things like that that they need on the ground floor. You could even see just a pop up of, like, various, like, different, you know, stores as individuals and, you know, you say, okay. You know, you can you can tie in something like BTC pay server or or set sail to merchant services. So it's like I'm actually, you know, I'm going to list a water bottle for sale or like 24 water bottles or like food and anyone that donates to that, you actually, as an individual or, you know, maybe a team of small individuals, you go out and you actually buy the utilities that someone had just donated. So you can list all these these different, you know, protester friendly,
1340
01:48:16.079 --> 01:48:31.045
1341
01:48:32.659 --> 01:48:37.159
You could go there and try and onboard them to Bitcoin, be like, these protesters have Bitcoin.
1342
01:48:38.340 --> 01:48:40.360
I can get you set up, you know,
1343
01:48:40.695 --> 01:48:41.195
maybe
1344
01:48:41.575 --> 01:48:45.035
even charge them a little bit of money to to do it so it's not just completely,
1345
01:48:46.615 --> 01:48:47.015
charity,
1346
01:48:47.790 --> 01:49:00.955
1347
01:49:01.415 --> 01:49:04.795
to, like, you know, buy basic necessities like food and water.
1348
01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:13.695
1349
01:49:14.094 --> 01:49:17.795
Regardless of protests, engage your local merchants. Be like, are you accepting Bitcoin yet?
1350
01:49:19.054 --> 01:49:23.074
You know, I might be a Bitcoiner, but I love cash for the privacy reasons.
1351
01:49:23.620 --> 01:49:24.120
And,
1352
01:49:25.060 --> 01:49:35.704
whenever I see a place that is credit card only, even if I see the sign, I always say to them, I always pull out my cash and make it as friction full as possible so that they see that I want to pay with cash. Right? And I think,
1353
01:49:36.644 --> 01:49:47.889
you can do that in a in a friendly but an insistent way then maybe you should start accepting Bitcoin. And here's the ways you can start accepting Bitcoin. Here's some guides. You know, I can help get you set up,
1354
01:49:49.875 --> 01:49:55.175
and you get to save on credit card fees. It's a very obvious selling point. You have no chargeback risk.
1355
01:49:55.635 --> 01:50:03.449
1356
01:50:03.829 --> 01:50:07.610
literally trying to do that and onboard business and try to create, like, an evangelist
1357
01:50:08.295 --> 01:50:16.955
sort of network where, it's not just him doing it, but other people as well trying to onboard onboard merchants and get sats back even as a result. So,
1358
01:50:17.580 --> 01:50:30.205
yeah, even as something simple as saying, you know, walking into a store and saying, you know, immediately saying, do you accept Bitcoin? Can can go a long way. And eventually, if enough people are doing that, you know, maybe maybe it's something to look into.
1359
01:50:31.465 --> 01:50:33.485
1360
01:50:33.945 --> 01:50:36.270
So actually, someone did a study on,
1361
01:50:37.610 --> 01:50:44.865
what drives Bitcoin adoption by retailers. And it's a few years old, so it's pretty out of date. Like, I think it was 2016 data or something.
1362
01:50:46.705 --> 01:50:51.685
But the top two reasons for crypto acceptance or Bitcoin acceptance was,
1363
01:50:52.465 --> 01:50:56.910
that the cuss 1, that the customers ask for it, and 2, that,
1364
01:50:58.330 --> 01:51:02.085
them accepting Bitcoin will bring in extra customers. And I think,
1365
01:51:02.565 --> 01:51:12.130
both of those are quite easy to convey if you if you if you ask, do you accept Bitcoin? Or if you make it if you make it known that there are a whole bunch of Bitcoiners wanting to spend their Bitcoin,
1366
01:51:12.590 --> 01:51:15.570
then I think that's a really big motivation for the merchant.
1367
01:51:16.430 --> 01:51:18.610
1368
01:51:19.375 --> 01:51:21.074
this, like, growing, blossoming
1369
01:51:21.535 --> 01:51:23.074
global meetup community
1370
01:51:23.375 --> 01:51:26.915
that is happening. Right? Like, there's meetups all around the world, Bitcoin meetups.
1371
01:51:28.099 --> 01:51:29.159
You have a
1372
01:51:30.980 --> 01:51:34.440
a a condensed amount of individuals that are ideologically motivated.
1373
01:51:35.594 --> 01:51:40.574
And I would say to meet up organizers that, like, one thing that you can do that is very actionable
1374
01:51:41.275 --> 01:51:52.719
is encourage local businesses to accept Bitcoin. And then once they do start accepting Bitcoin and you help them accept Bitcoin and and I'm it needs to be clear here in a sovereign way because, like, there was a movement
1375
01:51:53.165 --> 01:51:58.625
in 2013 where everyone was just trying to get them on to bid pay. It was a centralized service. They were auto selling to fiat.
1376
01:51:59.005 --> 01:52:03.990
You get them on in a sovereign way, and then you give them basically what amounts to free advertising at your meetup.
1377
01:52:04.450 --> 01:52:06.870
You don't even have to you know, I I've seen with,
1378
01:52:08.574 --> 01:52:09.955
like, OC Bitcorners,
1379
01:52:11.135 --> 01:52:11.875
in California,
1380
01:52:12.255 --> 01:52:18.599
which, by the way, if you're a bit cornered in California, I don't know how you circle that square, but that's besides the point.
1381
01:52:18.900 --> 01:52:25.735
There's some great Bitcoiners over there. They actually host their meetups at the different, like, restaurants and bars that
1382
01:52:26.215 --> 01:52:31.114
decide to accept Bitcoin. But you don't even have to do that. You can just be like, you know, this great establishment
1383
01:52:31.494 --> 01:52:36.489
that is at this location started accepting Bitcoin, and you just mentioned it at your meetup. It's extremely powerful.
1384
01:52:38.230 --> 01:52:38.809
A 100%.
1385
01:52:40.309 --> 01:52:43.769
1386
01:52:44.150 --> 01:52:48.715
so the one in Melbourne, we we go to a place that accepts Bitcoin at a bar.
1387
01:52:49.895 --> 01:53:00.740
And, actually, we've been to other places before, and you often find if you offer to pay the bartender in Bitcoin, and and you show them to download a a mobile wallet, and you give them a pretty decent tip,
1388
01:53:01.120 --> 01:53:02.320
which by the way tips,
1389
01:53:02.880 --> 01:53:06.784
never happen in Australia. It's not a not a common thing. It's,
1390
01:53:07.485 --> 01:53:14.600
they love it. They, I've seen, some bartenders bouncing off the walls. They've got, like, $300 in Bitcoin by the end of the night.
1391
01:53:15.140 --> 01:53:19.480
1392
01:53:21.915 --> 01:53:26.095
1393
01:53:27.040 --> 01:53:29.739
of beer and beer. Yeah.
1394
01:53:30.080 --> 01:53:34.739
1395
01:53:36.425 --> 01:53:41.165
So, I mean, we're an hour and 50 minutes in. We're probably gonna wrap it up kinda soon.
1396
01:53:42.265 --> 01:53:43.165
But we we,
1397
01:53:43.780 --> 01:53:48.280
usually, I like to, like, leave, you know, the more controversial nuanced topics
1398
01:53:48.659 --> 01:53:51.960
towards the end because usually only the rider dies get to this point.
1399
01:53:53.865 --> 01:53:57.885
I'm curious on your guys' opinion. So, I mean, we go through all of these different trade offs,
1400
01:53:58.585 --> 01:54:00.925
and, you know, we're talking about running,
1401
01:54:02.230 --> 01:54:09.450
you know, running an always on service on a on a virtual private server that is, you know, hosted in the cloud that usually requires KYC.
1402
01:54:10.095 --> 01:54:17.875
That's one of the reasons why I really like Voltage is because they don't require KYC. You just pay with Bitcoin. But I I do think, eventually, they might have to start requiring KYC.
1403
01:54:18.340 --> 01:54:22.920
You know, Luna Node is a recommended one because their KYC is light, but they still require a phone number.
1404
01:54:23.860 --> 01:54:26.519
I do like I will always shill silent.link
1405
01:54:26.980 --> 01:54:29.355
where you can get a burner phone number,
1406
01:54:29.855 --> 01:54:32.515
and pay with Bitcoin and just download it as an eSIM,
1407
01:54:33.455 --> 01:54:37.075
or, alternatively, you know, you go and pay cash to get one.
1408
01:54:39.360 --> 01:54:48.485
So with all these different trade offs, and we're talking about, like, you know, you need to do you should do coin control afterwards, and and you should do coin join. And we're talking about in a
1409
01:54:48.945 --> 01:54:53.205
situation where you have, like, a state level actor. You have, you know, the Canadian government,
1410
01:54:54.065 --> 01:54:57.239
actually going out there and doing surveillance and doing chain
1411
01:54:58.420 --> 01:54:58.920
surveillance
1412
01:55:00.099 --> 01:55:01.480
and blacklisting addresses,
1413
01:55:03.435 --> 01:55:07.055
I'm gonna say a very controversial thing right now. Do you think
1414
01:55:08.075 --> 01:55:11.535
I was on your guys' opinion. Like, to to me, in that kind of situation,
1415
01:55:13.020 --> 01:55:13.840
it seems
1416
01:55:14.300 --> 01:55:17.360
way better in terms of a
1417
01:55:18.460 --> 01:55:19.520
trade off balance
1418
01:55:20.060 --> 01:55:20.560
to
1419
01:55:21.255 --> 01:55:22.315
accept Monero
1420
01:55:22.935 --> 01:55:28.955
as your donation and then swap into Bitcoin. Like, if you're gonna keep savings, you swap into Bitcoin.
1421
01:55:29.430 --> 01:55:30.410
But for the actual
1422
01:55:30.870 --> 01:55:33.690
donation collection and then spending of it,
1423
01:55:34.470 --> 01:55:36.330
you accept Monero. Am I
1424
01:55:36.875 --> 01:55:42.414
off base here, or is that something that people should be considering in, like, a state level type of situation?
1425
01:55:43.434 --> 01:55:47.840
1426
01:55:49.420 --> 01:55:54.425
And, yeah, depending on how much privacy you need, it might be the best,
1427
01:55:54.804 --> 01:55:55.304
option.
1428
01:55:57.684 --> 01:55:58.184
Yeah.
1429
01:55:58.565 --> 01:56:03.860
I I I don't I don't have any big problems in there. I think it's pretty cool. The cryptography is pretty awesome.
1430
01:56:05.280 --> 01:56:10.340
Pretty cool community too. Good values. So, yeah, no issues there for me.
1431
01:56:13.155 --> 01:56:13.655
1432
01:56:14.275 --> 01:56:17.335
still I'm still in shock. How dare you, Odell people.
1433
01:56:20.620 --> 01:56:22.880
1434
01:56:23.340 --> 01:56:24.239
1435
01:56:25.420 --> 01:56:43.150
1436
01:56:43.610 --> 01:56:44.750
1437
01:56:45.215 --> 01:57:14.180
I mean, I I still think about the UX issues, and and, you know, we talk about all the complexities of even just using Bitcoin itself, like, today, less this whole 2 hours, the complexities of receiving Bitcoin. And now we're now we're throwing like, sure. Like, from a privacy perspective, you know, there's a lot of great properties there, but now we're throwing the UX issue. Like, okay. Let's explain, you know, Monero. Let's explain how to do swaps. Let's explain how to do trustless swaps. Let's explain. Well, you might have to do trustless swaps in that situation. You post, like, a Monero address, and then you just go to sideship.ai,
1438
01:57:14.720 --> 01:57:24.244
and you just swap it into Bitcoin. True. Okay. But still there there are, you know, there's still a little bit of trade off of like explaining that to people as well in addition to all the other,
1439
01:57:24.570 --> 01:57:25.550
you know, Bitcoin
1440
01:57:26.409 --> 01:57:29.070
caveats that that we throw out there. There's,
1441
01:57:29.449 --> 01:57:36.925
and there could be timing analysis, there can be other things, you know, associated with these swaps. So like that's that's my only thing is from, like, a a UX
1442
01:57:38.345 --> 01:57:44.610
1443
01:57:46.110 --> 01:57:48.210
Rod, you wanna check to see if it's down?
1444
01:57:49.390 --> 01:57:51.250
It looks like it's down on my side.
1445
01:57:51.585 --> 01:57:52.565
It's up on your
1446
01:57:53.105 --> 01:57:53.765
side? Weird.
1447
01:57:56.465 --> 01:57:58.885
Well, there's my controversial thought for the day.
1448
01:57:59.210 --> 01:58:06.750
Yeah. I I feel like it's I it's definitely a conversation that should be had in this particular situation. I mean, if you if you talk about, like, these actual specific,
1449
01:58:07.785 --> 01:58:09.405
this this most recent fundraise,
1450
01:58:10.585 --> 01:58:11.885
if they had done that,
1451
01:58:13.145 --> 01:58:17.780
they'd be in a way better situation right now. And they could still hold Bitcoin at the end of the day.
1452
01:58:18.159 --> 01:58:22.179
1453
01:58:22.639 --> 01:58:28.735
saying, you know, we are the like, 3 to, you know, 5 individuals, like, you know, that are crowdfunding
1454
01:58:29.035 --> 01:58:32.495
for, you know, the truckers themselves. So, like, they will still be
1455
01:58:33.080 --> 01:58:33.580
the,
1456
01:58:34.119 --> 01:58:50.445
custodians in a way. Like sure it'll help like the government can't come in and say, okay, we're gonna blacklist these addresses and and everything like that. It helps on that side, but they're still like, you know, they're still single points of failure here that they can they can target. If they know who those, you know, 3 to 5 individuals are,
1457
01:58:50.980 --> 01:59:15.650
1458
01:59:16.110 --> 01:59:25.675
1459
01:59:26.140 --> 01:59:36.355
1460
01:59:36.975 --> 01:59:44.515
you have less people willing to donate to you because they they don't they don't have Monero to donate. Right? They have Bitcoin that they wanna donate.
1461
01:59:45.850 --> 01:59:46.350
1462
01:59:48.170 --> 02:00:04.390
1463
02:00:05.170 --> 02:00:06.390
fee there as well.
1464
02:00:07.250 --> 02:00:09.350
Yeah. I think I think, we should definitely
1465
02:00:10.094 --> 02:00:15.315
try and build the software that makes this possible to to raise money using Bitcoin.
1466
02:00:16.015 --> 02:00:17.715
But, yeah, maybe in some circumstances,
1467
02:00:18.015 --> 02:00:25.650
if there's no other option, then Monero might be your your best choice if if, you've got a pretty pretty strong adversary who's
1468
02:00:26.110 --> 02:00:27.250
watching very closely.
1469
02:00:30.765 --> 02:00:37.210
1470
02:00:37.770 --> 02:00:38.650
and we'll see what happens.
1471
02:00:40.650 --> 02:00:48.445
You know Pavel's not gonna be canceled because he just does not wanna talk about anything, I guess. When, when Monero fork for BTC pay server?
1472
02:00:49.065 --> 02:00:53.805
Well, I mean, Monero is, like, completely different than Bitcoin from a code base, so that's pretty difficult.
1473
02:00:54.880 --> 02:00:55.360
But, anyways
1474
02:00:55.920 --> 02:00:56.420
1475
02:00:56.960 --> 02:00:58.740
there is a community docker,
1476
02:00:59.280 --> 02:01:03.620
plugin which allows you to accept Monero on BTC based servers. So
1477
02:01:04.145 --> 02:01:06.885
the I guess we we continue with controversy.
1478
02:01:07.185 --> 02:01:10.725
So cancel BTC based server. Cancel, they'll cancel Palonext.
1479
02:01:11.370 --> 02:01:13.450
1480
02:01:13.770 --> 02:01:20.510
Guys so, I mean, I think this was a great conversation. I think it'll be very helpful for people, especially in adversarial environments who are trying to
1481
02:01:21.055 --> 02:01:23.715
raise money and getting, you know, financially blockaded.
1482
02:01:26.015 --> 02:01:28.275
I usually like to end it with final thoughts.
1483
02:01:29.855 --> 02:01:30.095
So
1484
02:01:31.199 --> 02:01:33.600
but with you guys specifically, I mean, you both,
1485
02:01:34.080 --> 02:01:40.355
are heavily involved with these open source projects. Make sure you let people know how they can contribute, whether that's through donations
1486
02:01:40.735 --> 02:01:46.355
or actually, you know, contributing to open source work, with your projects. So we'll start. Final thoughts.
1487
02:01:47.135 --> 02:01:48.355
Pavel, final thoughts.
1488
02:01:49.310 --> 02:01:54.290
1489
02:01:55.550 --> 02:01:57.490
We currently need a lot of people,
1490
02:01:58.375 --> 02:02:01.034
not only developers. We need help with our documentation,
1491
02:02:01.494 --> 02:02:13.560
content, and things like that. So if you have any skill, feel free to hit me up on Twitter at pavlonex, and I will happily onboard you. Also, bitcoin dot design for those interested in design
1492
02:02:13.940 --> 02:02:14.680
and UX.
1493
02:02:15.335 --> 02:02:21.255
1494
02:02:22.054 --> 02:02:31.710
I I think it's important to realize that, you know, BTCPay is a massive project, and it's not just programmers that you're looking for. Right? It's people doing documentation, design, all these sorts of things.
1495
02:02:32.250 --> 02:02:33.390
1496
02:02:34.535 --> 02:02:37.815
1497
02:02:38.295 --> 02:02:42.235
you know, going longer than you expected to go. It is it is truly appreciated.
1498
02:02:43.770 --> 02:02:44.910
Nick, final thoughts.
1499
02:02:46.010 --> 02:02:47.950
1500
02:02:49.050 --> 02:02:49.950
or satsale.org,
1501
02:02:50.490 --> 02:02:52.190
and there's a link to the GitHub.
1502
02:02:53.385 --> 02:02:55.085
I've got there's not many contributors
1503
02:02:55.465 --> 02:02:56.525
just yet. It's,
1504
02:02:57.225 --> 02:03:02.440
still pretty small project, but I like to think it's a very small code base and very accessible,
1505
02:03:03.300 --> 02:03:07.880
and especially because it's written in Python, so it's quite accessible to junior developers especially.
1506
02:03:09.275 --> 02:03:15.755
And so I'm actually currently getting some Satsale t shirts printed, and I'll be sending those out to all,
1507
02:03:16.155 --> 02:03:17.295
substantial contributors,
1508
02:03:18.700 --> 02:03:20.160
past and present. And
1509
02:03:20.620 --> 02:03:28.255
if you if you wanna support that sale, you can donate on the website as well, and I'll be using that money to, to to get some shirts printed.
1510
02:03:30.075 --> 02:03:30.575
Yeah.
1511
02:03:30.955 --> 02:03:35.695
And actually, could I plug, one other thing I've been working on lately? Go, go, go away.
1512
02:03:36.139 --> 02:03:37.280
Thank you. Thank you.
1513
02:03:37.739 --> 02:03:38.239
So
1514
02:03:38.699 --> 02:03:39.760
gun dot fun.
1515
02:03:40.060 --> 02:03:42.480
Gun is a command line Bitcoin wallet,
1516
02:03:43.020 --> 02:03:46.425
and it supports peer to peer betting using bit Bitcoin.
1517
02:03:47.605 --> 02:03:49.784
It it's written in Rust. It uses BDK.
1518
02:03:50.565 --> 02:03:55.050
It's really easy to set up with a cold card wallet. So I've been working on that with,
1519
02:03:55.590 --> 02:03:57.449
Lloyd LL Fawn on GitHub.
1520
02:03:58.469 --> 02:04:00.889
And, yeah, I think Lloyd's gonna be making some,
1521
02:04:01.670 --> 02:04:03.605
some bets tonight or tomorrow.
1522
02:04:04.144 --> 02:04:12.690
So we've got a we've got a lot of bets coming in to try and onboard new users, and I think some of them will have some pretty good odds. So keep an eye out for that.
1523
02:04:13.710 --> 02:04:17.730
1524
02:04:18.635 --> 02:04:25.295
Thank you, Nick. I really do appreciate all the work you do, and I appreciate you coming on the show and and discussing this all with the freaks.
1525
02:04:26.155 --> 02:04:27.454
Tell me, ton of thoughts.
1526
02:04:28.369 --> 02:04:31.429
1527
02:04:31.969 --> 02:04:32.770
us having this.
1528
02:04:33.570 --> 02:04:37.405
You know, not only, you know, if you're out there listening, like, you know, contributing to these projects,
1529
02:04:37.804 --> 02:05:10.760
you know, from a technical standpoint or, like, documentation, whatever it is, but also, you know, donation donating is, like, such an important topic too. Like, you're really changing lives out there. So, yeah, we all wanna hold our Bitcoin and never spend it. Right? But there's, like, people out there that need this. And and, you know, even if we're, like, you know, doting into causes and, you know, they may not exactly know how to distribute the funds very properly or, like, or what to do afterwards, like, you know, go out there and and and do it. Don't be don't be too stingy out there. Like, you you know, we do try you know, we are trying to change the world out there. So, you know, be the change you seek. But
1530
02:05:11.305 --> 02:05:19.885
1531
02:05:21.010 --> 02:05:29.190
And, yeah, download download Satel. Get your hands dirty. Give it a try. Try connecting to your Bitcoin node. I think you'll you'll find it pretty fun.
1532
02:05:29.755 --> 02:05:30.255
1533
02:05:31.195 --> 02:05:34.235
Thank you, guys. And I'll just echo what what Tony said.
1534
02:05:35.675 --> 02:05:37.295
Your your work is really appreciated,
1535
02:05:37.595 --> 02:05:42.710
not just on the facilitating donations front because I think that is a major use case that Bitcoin,
1536
02:05:43.730 --> 02:05:44.469
can fix,
1537
02:05:45.330 --> 02:05:48.675
and that will fix, but we, you know, we need to make it easier.
1538
02:05:49.055 --> 02:05:55.750
And you guys have made it significantly easier than it was, you know, just 2, 3 years ago, but I think we can go above and beyond that.
1539
02:05:56.550 --> 02:06:04.090
And I do appreciate all the work you do there, but also in onboarding merchants and being able to onboard them in a sovereign way without centralized third parties
1540
02:06:04.405 --> 02:06:05.785
and without address reuse,
1541
02:06:06.165 --> 02:06:06.745
so that
1542
02:06:07.125 --> 02:06:17.270
privacy best practices are taken into account is absolutely massive. It feels like we actually have a foundation where we start trying to build a circular economy rather than building on quicksand using something like BitPay or OpenNode.
1543
02:06:19.545 --> 02:06:22.284
With all that said, Breaks, next week,
1544
02:06:22.985 --> 02:06:24.764
dispatch will not be happening.
1545
02:06:25.224 --> 02:06:26.764
I need a little bit of a vacation.
1546
02:06:28.110 --> 02:06:29.390
We are coming back,
1547
02:06:29.870 --> 02:06:30.770
March 8th.
1548
02:06:31.470 --> 02:06:35.090
I have a great crew. I have Brother Rabbit, Goro Moneta Moneta
1549
02:06:35.390 --> 02:06:35.890
from
1550
02:06:37.295 --> 02:06:39.315
Ronin Dojo, Rod and Weil,
1551
02:06:39.935 --> 02:06:44.915
maybe a couple other people, and we're gonna be talking about distant tech and privacy in relation to Bitcoin.
1552
02:06:45.730 --> 02:06:48.390
So stay tuned for that. That should be a lot of fun.
1553
02:06:48.850 --> 02:06:51.430
I think our our YouTube now is at 2 strikes.
1554
02:06:51.810 --> 02:06:53.830
Marty's not gonna stop doing controversial
1555
02:06:56.135 --> 02:07:00.235
controversial interviews, so we will probably get banned there pretty soon.
1556
02:07:01.815 --> 02:07:02.315
So,
1557
02:07:03.060 --> 02:07:05.880
if if you wanna use a mainstream platform to watch,
1558
02:07:06.660 --> 02:07:07.880
make sure you go to twitch.tv/sil
1559
02:07:09.060 --> 02:07:12.695
dispatch and press subscribe there. We will continue to broadcast there.
1560
02:07:13.475 --> 02:07:15.975
And, also, you can always watch it at bitcointv.com.
1561
02:07:16.595 --> 02:07:18.535
All of our archives are there, and
1562
02:07:19.350 --> 02:07:22.170
the live shows do get streamed there. It doesn't have
1563
02:07:24.310 --> 02:07:29.175
I I think you can subscribe there, but, you basically have to have your own peer 2 instance. So,
1564
02:07:29.895 --> 02:07:34.395
it doesn't really give you, like, a notification when we go live. But if you are in the live chat
1565
02:07:34.855 --> 02:07:40.980
or on Twitter, I notify people, what time we're going live, and it is always on Tuesdays unless I say otherwise.
1566
02:07:41.600 --> 02:07:44.500
So don't forget to join the live chat. If you go to sidlaldisbatch.com
1567
02:07:44.960 --> 02:07:46.175
and click sidlildot chat,
1568
02:07:46.574 --> 02:07:48.195
you can join the live chat.
1569
02:07:49.054 --> 02:07:50.275
With all that said,
1570
02:07:50.735 --> 02:07:52.175
I wanna thank you guys.
1571
02:07:52.574 --> 02:07:55.395
Thank you for joining us. I wanna thank the freaks for joining us.
1572
02:07:56.370 --> 02:07:58.390
Cheers, and keep up the great work. Thank you.
1573
02:07:59.810 --> 02:08:00.710
1574
02:08:02.210 --> 02:08:02.950
1575
02:12:08.344 --> 02:12:10.284
1576
02:12:12.264 --> 02:12:15.840
as awesome as I found it, and I hope you found some use out of it.
1577
02:12:16.780 --> 02:12:19.680
And, just keep learning, keep educating yourself.
1578
02:12:20.140 --> 02:12:21.360
Take personal responsibility,
1579
02:12:22.005 --> 02:12:23.224
and improve your situation.
1580
02:12:23.525 --> 02:12:26.985
Be humble enough to realize you do not know everything, neither do I.
1581
02:12:28.645 --> 02:12:34.040
Together, you know, we'll we'll be better for it. I love you all. Do rabbit hole recap on Thursday,
1582
02:12:35.140 --> 02:12:38.600
from my vacation because we never skip rabbit hole recap.
1583
02:12:38.945 --> 02:12:41.685
Then I'll do rabbit hole recap again next Thursday
1584
02:12:42.225 --> 02:12:48.325
from vacation because we never skip rabbit hole recap, but I am skipping dispatch, and I will see you back for dispatch on 8th.
1585
02:12:48.690 --> 02:12:50.949
Appreciate you all. Stay on the stack sets.
