Feb. 15, 2022
CD56: specter wallet, using your own bitcoin node, and kyc tradeoffs with @MWietersheim and @KeithMukai
EPISODE: 56
BLOCK: 723494
PRICE: 2272 sats per dollar
TOPICS: specter wallet, using your own node, kyc tradeoffs, liquid network, open source monetization, specter shield, el salvador, burdensome ineffective regulations
@MWietersheim: https://twitter.com/MWietersheim
@KeithMukai: https://twitter.com/KeithMukai
@SpecterWallet: https://twitter.com/SpecterWallet
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00:02 - Broadening the scope of Canada's anti-money laundering and terrorist financing rules
00:58 - Freezing or suspending accounts without a court order
03:15 - Introduction to Citadel Dispatch and Bitcoin discussion
06:12 - Introduction to Specter Wallet and its features
07:19 - Explanation of Specter Wallet's key features
09:37 - Discussion on the importance of running a Bitcoin node and using your own wallet infrastructure
11:31 - Integration of Specter Wallet with Bitcoin Core
14:42 - Comparison between cold storage infrastructure and lightning network infrastructure
19:49 - Importance of taking a slow and cautious approach when moving to multisig
29:25 - Integration of Liquid Bitcoin in Specter Wallet
37:23 - Overview of the Adopting Bitcoin conference in El Salvador
40:51 - Discussion on the success and challenges of Bitcoin adoption in El Salvador
46:08 - Explanation of the MIT license and the potential for monetization of open-source projects
52:33 - Samura, Spectre, and Sparrow as top choices for multisig and cold storage
54:48 - Importance of projects being run by few people with limited budgets
01:00:04 - Monetizing free and open source projects in the post-Bitcoin world
01:43:16 - Bitcoin incentives and game theory
01:44:00 - Bifurcation of the market: free market vs. regulated market
01:45:01 - Friction caused by regulation and the future of Bitcoin
01:45:55 - The impact of Canadian KYC regulations on Bitcoin adoption
01:46:24 - The importance of building tools and improving education to prevent people from getting burned
01:47:01 - The need for fast adoption of self-custody and no KYC tools
01:48:45 - The lack of adoption of self-custody and the focus on fiat gains
01:50:47 - The number of people using hardware wallets and the need for more adoption
01:51:26 - The number of people using Bitcoin and the importance of self-custody
01:54:03 - The Specter DIY hardware wallet and the future plans for Specter
01:59:55 - The focus on on-chain custody and the potential for lightning secure backends
02:01:48 - The funding challenges and priorities for Specter Development
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:28:54 PM
Duration: 8143.569
Channels: 1
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We are announcing the following
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immediate actions.
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1st,
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we are broadening the scope of Canada's anti money lauder laundering
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and terrorist financing rules
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so that they cover crowdfunding
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platforms
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and the payment service providers they use.
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These changes cover all forms of transactions,
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including digital assets,
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such as cryptocurrencies.
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The illegal blockades have highlighted the fact that crowdfunding
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platforms
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and some of the payment service providers they use
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are not fully captured under the proceeds of crime and terrorist financing act.
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Our banks and financial institutions
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are already obligated
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to report to the Financial Transactions
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and Reports Analysis Center of Canada
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or FINTRAC.
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As of today,
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all crowdfunding
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platforms
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and the payment service providers they use
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must register with FINTRAC,
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and they must report
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large and suspicious transactions
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to FINTRAC their relationships
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with anyone involved in the illegal blockades
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and report to the RCMP
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or CSIS.
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As of today,
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a bank or other financial service provider
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will be able to immediately
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freeze
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or suspend an account
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without a court order.
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In doing so,
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they will be protected
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against civil liability
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for actions taken in good faith.
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Federal government institutions
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will have a new broad authority
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to share relevant information with banks
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and other financial service providers
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to ensure
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This is about
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following
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the money.
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This is about stopping the financing
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of these illegal blockades.
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We are today serving notice.
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If your truck is being used in these illegal blockades,
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your corporate accounts
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will be frozen.
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The insurance on your vehicle
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will be suspended.
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Send your semi trailers home.
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The Canadian economy needs them to be doing legitimate work,
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not to be illegally
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making us all poor.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for Citadel dispatch 56.
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CIL dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
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Wanna do a huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show, keeping it
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free of ads and sponsors. Dispatch is a 100% audience funded, purely focused on actual Bitcoin discussion.
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If you wanna support the show, you can do so at sitaldispatch.com
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through either
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On Chain Bitcoin or Lightning.
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I also have a PayNim, which is easy to remember. It's Odell.
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If you're using Samura or Sparrow Wallet, you can support me that way. Another way to support the show
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is through podcasting 2 point o apps. I like fountain podcast. I like Breeze Wallet.
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Both of them are very easy to use.
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You install it on your phone. You search Siddle dispatch. You press the subscribe button. You load it up with stats, then you basically choose how many sats per minute you think dispatch is worth to you. And as you listen, it streams those sats
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directly to my node.
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Dispatch is broadcast on Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, and Bitcoin TV dot com. All links are at sildispatch.com.
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It's also available in any podcasting app.
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You just search
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dispatch.
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So with all that said,
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obviously, the intro there was some really dark times coming out of Canada.
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They're using financial surveillance and financial control
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to attack their political enemies,
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including going after Bitcoiners because of the Bitcoin crowdfunding
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attempts that are being done.
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It's a developing situation. Really hate to see it.
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Free countries should be supporting monetary choice and monetary freedom.
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They shouldn't be doing authoritarian
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dictator style shit.
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Anyway, with all that said, hopefully, we're gonna have a lighter, more enjoyable conversation. I have some 2 great guests,
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joining us today.
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Oh, before I get there, as always, if you wanna participate in the live discussion
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as we are
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doing our dispatches. The live audience is a key aspect of this show,
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makes it very unique.
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In a lot of ways, I feel like the live audience is a host alongside me, and you guys do make it special.
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We have a matrix chat,
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which you can find the link to that at citadel dispatch.com
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if you just click
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citadel chat, very easy to install.
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My favorite client is Element. It'll pass you through the instructions. You install Element, then you reclick the link, and you jump into the chat. And that chat is is been
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popping lately. We have over 700 Bitcoiners in there even when we're not doing dispatch.
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There's really, really great productive Bitcoin conversation happening in there.
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Okay. So with all that said, I got 2 great guests here. We have a return guest. We have Keith Mukai. Keith, how's it going?
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Hey. Happy to be here. Awesome. And, thanks for joining as as always.
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And we have Maritz. Maritz, how's it going?
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Really good. Thank you for for having me and and Keith here.
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So, the pleasure is all mine. It's been a long time coming. I mean,
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our main conversation is gonna be Specter Wallet, which is one of my favorite Bitcoin wallets.
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It's incorporated in the guides that you can find at sill dispatch.com.
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I've had some of your team on before,
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but I've never had you on, so I'm very excited to have a proper discussion with you on air as well.
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The focus today will be using your own Bitcoin node,
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using Specter Wallet, trade offs to KYC.
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We have a lot of different topics we're gonna cover.
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But before we do that, let's just start with high level.
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How
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how do you explain what Specter Wallet is? What is Specter Wallet? Why should people care? Why should people consider using
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it? The
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the the key feature of Specter is that it really connects your hardware wallets to your,
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Bitcoin core node. And, this is basically
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the key feature. It makes it really easy to to use your node and not just to run it and and but really use it for for verification.
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So expect that we think sort of in three levels about this. So
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we think about,
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your node and your verification. You should run your own node. We had,
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early 2021, we had discussions if we should,
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add,
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Electrum
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support
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or connect,
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to allow to connect to Electrum
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and servers, and we we decided against this. We are sort of node maximalists
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here, and really believe it's it's it's way easier
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to to run a Bitcoin than many people think.
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Second is that we
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want to encourage by default to you the user to not only run his note, but also use his own wallet infrastructure, which is part of the Bitcoin core node. And it's very powerful, especially with HWI
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and,
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and PSPT. You can really make great use of the wallet infrastructure. And this is a point maybe we can touch on later.
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People shouldn't use the back ends of, hardware wallet, manufacturers
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such as Ledger and Trezza, in my opinion, because,
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addresses and x pops are sent to these infrastructures. And,
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if somebody has your x pop, he knows all about your payment history and also future payments. So this is, this is not good. And finally, the third point is
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not your keys,
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not your not your Bitcoin. So it's about node verification. It's about wallet, your wallet infrastructure. So it's privacy
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and then,
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your keys, your coins, basically. And, of course, we wanna be as work with the standards, be as interoperable as possible.
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So if a user doesn't like Spectre anymore, he wants to go over to Sparrow. If somebody doesn't like Sparrow anymore, he can skip over to Spectre or to BlueWallet. So we need to offer this interoperability and,
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avoid as much as possible to lock in any any Bitconers in their
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in in in their in in wallet specifications or something like this.
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Yes. So
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That's I mean, I think that was a great explanation. I mean, for for starters,
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to the freaks that might be maybe a tiny bit confused.
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I don't think you are, but just in case,
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Specter is a piece of software that you can install on your desktop.
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You can install it on Linux, Mac, Windows.
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You install Bitcoin Core alongside it.
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So Bitcoin Core is a reference client
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for Bitcoin. It it is your own node,
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and it's a wallet.
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If when you interact with the Bitcoin network,
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you are going to need to use a node to interact with the Bitcoin network. If you're not using your own node, you're using someone else's node, and you're trusting them with
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Mauriz,
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insinuate
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not insinuated, but alluded to when he was talking about the software that comes with your hardware wallets. If you're using, like, Ledger Live or Treasure Web Suite,
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the default software that comes with those wallets.
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They will use Ledger's node or Treasure's node.
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So Specter allows you to interact with pretty much every hardware wallet,
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that is available,
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and you can interact easily and directly with your own Bitcoin Core node.
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You can do multisig. You can do single sig. It's just a very easy
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UX,
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for basically interacting directly with your node.
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Exactly.
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And now I guess and one of the cool things you added was,
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and I guess this is probably a little bit before I started using Specter, so I never actually tried out this feature is Bitcoin Core is,
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like,
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can't they just install Spectre Wallet now and then it can automatically download Bitcoin Core as part of that process? Isn't there some kind of integration there?
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Yes. So you can download Specter Desktop, and you have,
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the possibility
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to,
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run Bitcoin Core,
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in your Spectre desktop,
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which is a great feature for people who want to have it packaged.
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I'm a little bit old school. I I I have to confess I still have my Bitcoin Core software running next to my Spectre software because I really like to see,
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sometimes I wanna go back into the real Bitcoin core software and see the transactions and everything, the labeling, which,
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the Spectre desktop is doing on the Bitcoin core side. So Right. To to the communication, to the RPC calls and everything. So I really like this this double feature that is double blind sort of. From an ease of use point of view, they can just go download Specter Wallet and then, like, in that startup guide, it that, like, startup user flow, it it basically instructs you to then install a core.
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Yes. Yes. Exactly.
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So when we first came out, we we had it separately, then we packaged it. And,
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it's it's it's a lot of people also, like, on the bigger page is, like, a lot of people think, oh, running a node is very complicated, and I need to
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Raspberry Blitz and and, or get Umbrel and need all this hardware. It's like, it's not. If you have an old MacBook or old laptop lying around, which is not, like, completely
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slow and completely broken,
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you can basically
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use this as as your,
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node hardware to say so. And you can install your,
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Bitcoin core node. You can sync it yourself. We have also a website app, which is called pruned node today
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or pruned note dot today, which is maintained by our CTO, Stefan Znigarev.
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And you can download a 5 gigabyte
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pruned.
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And you can put this on your laptop and and run it and then put the spectra on it, and you have a dedicated laptop. And for for running this, you don't have to buy any new hardware there. And most people have a have a old
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laptop
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lying around, I guess.
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So, I mean, yeah, I I would say that,
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if if you want to use Lightning, then it gets a little bit more complicated because you need to have something that's always on. But if we're talking about on chain Bitcoin, we're talking about cold storage,
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we're talking about your savings wallets.
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Mhmm. The, you know, the cool thing is is you can literally just turn it off and turn it on on demand. You only really need to have,
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Spectre and core running when you're actually interacting with your wallets. Right?
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Yeah. So this is a point where I also would like to ask you. What what do you how do you see this? When I look at GetUnroll and all these lightning notes, and
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I feel for
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people have the private keys on there, for the lightning stuff. But it's for me, it feels more this is still a playground,
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when you see get Umbra or Raspberry Blitz. And that it's not something where I want to run my
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Bitcoin core and
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and cold storage infrastructure.
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So is there a difference between the cold storage
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infrastructure and sort of the
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hacky interesting lightning
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new tools infrastructure for you? Or or Well, I mean, I think I think for lightning, the
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the node implementations make a lot of sense,
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like these little node boxes,
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because once again, you wanna run it 24 or 7,
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and you want it to be low power consuming.
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Obviously,
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they are a hot wallet in terms of lightning, so there's some security risk there. But, that's more on lightning than the actual node implementations.
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Hopefully, there's, you know, some kind of advancements in terms of
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having some keys cold and figuring out how to do that. But in practice, I mean, you're constantly having to change state.
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You need hot keys.
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The other use case I would say is for people that are using coin join. I mean, if you're using the Whirlpool implementation,
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you get free remixing, but only when you're online. So you want that to be on 247 as well. So it's through these things that are, like, 247.
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I think that makes a lot of sense.
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I mean, I know in my personal setup, and I don't like talking about my personal setup too much, but I'll give the freaks a little bit,
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is, you know, I use a separate Bitcoin core instance for my cold storage than I do for,
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Lightning.
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Mhmm. And that's just because in general, if you,
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separate things,
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you reduce your attack surface, and you're gonna be in a better
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you're gonna be in a better situation from a privacy and security perspective.
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I don't know if that's absolutely necessary.
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I guess with the way Spectre is set up, it kind of makes sense because
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so you alluded to it earlier.
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Spectre actually
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isn't it's more of a UX for Bitcoin Core. Like, the keys
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are actually
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like, you can see it too. Like, if you open Bitcoin Core when you're using Specter, it's they everything shows up in Bitcoin Core as if you were using Bitcoin Core as a wallet by itself.
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So presumably
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and I haven't done this, but my assumption would be
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if you were using
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so Spectre's cool that it gives you options. Right? So you we already talked about the easiest option, which I like the most, which is you're running
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basically a dedicated computer with Spectre and Bitcoin Core on it.
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But you can also connect to a remote Bitcoin Core.
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And if you do that, then
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you're there's a private there's privacy risk because because all the all that UTXO information is on your
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247
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node. Right?
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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So these are just trade offs that people should consider and
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and based on their threat model.
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But I would say that if if your primary goal is, you know, strong savings,
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cold storage,
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it's really unnecessary to be running one of these 247 boxes, and it's just extremely it's way more user friendly and accessible than people realize just installing Spectre and following the prompts to have Bitcoin Core run alongside it.
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It's still also like a like, I think it's important if you're a Bitcoiner coming in and you're at the Bitcoin standard and you're listening to all the great podcasts and all the podcasts and all the economics and all the macro and and whatever and excited about the software, I think it's it's quite important that at some point, you have to put away the the Twitter on your phone and switch off, like, all the noise and just,
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really go and and run the node and and and get your hands a little bit dirty
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and try to get a little bit more familiar with all the technical stuff that is happening if you're not coming from the developer side anyways and from technical side.
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So I I see a lot of that that people get completely
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tied up in all this,
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Twitter noise and all this, which is very exciting. I mean, there are, like, so many blogs and articles and podcasts every day. Like, I can't keep up with the space.
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But, I think there's a important thing that you have to pause sometimes and
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and really try to get your hands on the stuff. Yeah. You gotta jump in and get your hands dirty. That's the best way to learn.
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Yeah. And then when you go into, like, running your own node with Spectre and maybe you want not only use it for single sick, it's very easy and good to use it with a single sick wallet, but you we actually build it for,
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multi sick cold storage. So
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then if you wanna,
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have a setup like this and,
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because you wanna protect the larger amount
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of your savings in in Bitcoin,
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then I recommend, like, really get familiar with the software. Have a single 6 sec setup first. Put a small amount. Test all the transactions,
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and do recovery drills, and especially if you're moving to multisig. So if I'm when I moved to multisig,
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like, one and a half years ago, it's really important that you,
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put the keys up in a in a in a good way, that you have a plan, that you you know what you do,
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and and you ease in. It's not like, oh, tomorrow I'm gonna take my, and I expect it to be done in 2 hours. No. No. No. This is like a
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a thing where you have to really ease in over over time in my opinion.
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Yeah. Take it slow.
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Practice everything.
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You know? Restore you wanna practice the backup restore procedure. You wanna pretend like you're in a situation where, like, devices are broken.
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You wanna get really comfortable with it because when you're in an actual situation where you're trying to recover the funds, it doesn't you don't want that to be the first time you're doing it.
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You're gonna scare the shit out of yourself.
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You're gonna panic, and maybe you screw things up. So you wanna take it slow, but at at the same time, don't be scared about it. It's it's not as overwhelming as as one might think. Right?
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Exactly.
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So,
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Keith, you have anything to add here?
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Yeah. So let me just jump in. The
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the node in a box,
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like, you know, the umbrellas are both blessing and curse. Right? They make it so easy. You can one click install Spectre.
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But when you wanna do something a little more complicated,
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it makes life complicated.
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So if you wanna run Spectre
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outside of your Umbrel node, but you figure, hey, I'm running a full node on Umbrel, so I'll just connect my my other Spectre laptop
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to my Umbrel node,
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which you can do,
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but Umbrel only exposes the node over Tor.
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So now on your local network,
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you have one machine
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navigating Tor
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just to get to your local network node
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on Umbrel. And, you know, somebody mentioned in the comments that,
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you know, Black Coffee said, I liked I really like Spectre desktop, but it got really laggy on multiple computers.
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And it depends on your setup, but
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something like, you know, this
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is it's kind of unexpected, you know, because in in your mind, it's really natural to just think, I'm running a node, I'm running Spectre, connect the 2, magic happens, it's great.
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But it's just kind of absurd to go through the Tor step when you're all on your own local network. And so
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the point where you want to be more like Moritz and pull your Spectre
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off of Umbrel,
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you know, because maybe you just don't have the same level of trust on in in Umbrel or in that environment,
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then you really should just be running a second node,
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just to make the communication quick, whether whether it's on the same laptop or a a a a node running on your local network, but just you can't connect to it over Tor. It's just it's gonna make the experience terrible.
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And there are there are places
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in Spectre where
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we definitely need to look at the time it takes to do these RPC calls,
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when you're talking from Spectre to your node and try to make the experience better, maybe cache more in memory if we can.
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But at the end of the day, we directly interface with Core. And if you're connecting over a slow connection, it's just gonna be a a miserable experience.
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Right. And, like, the complete counterpoint is
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having Core and Spectre on the same machine is is the exact opposite. Right? There's
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there's there's no external communication that happened has to happen, period.
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Right. It's gonna be as fast as that
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RPC connection and your, you know, computer,
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laptop CPU is gonna allow.
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And then someone Lance Huddle also said, so what you're telling me is since I run a node anyway, I should delete Ledger Live and use Spectre
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or anything. You can use Sparrow. You can use Spectre.
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You know, I I don't
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know Lance Huddle, and I don't know your level
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of technical
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experience, but I can speak for myself.
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Like, it took me a long time to understand that my Bitcoin wasn't stuck in Ledger Live and that it wasn't stuck even on the Ledger device itself.
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It was a revelation when I started using Specter
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and I could import the XPUBs from my Ledger
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and see all my balances. I'm like, oh my god, it's here.
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You know? And, like, I was such a noob. I'm like, how did it copy over? You know?
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But, yeah, there's that's the beauty of of Bitcoin. All your value is sitting on, you know, the the the blockchain that everyone has a copy of. So,
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yeah, get rid of the the corporate
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spyware and just run your own node, connect your keys to it in in, basically, watch only mode, and everything is already there.
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I would I would add that, I mean, you shouldn't,
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I think Bitcoin will
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I think most people that fuck around with shitcoins,
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would have been better off just being humble and stacking,
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sats. But, if you are if you are fucking around with shitcoins, that's probably the main reason to use Ledger Live. But if you're not and you are Bitcoin only, you should you should switch. Yes. And you should use your own node.
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And like we said earlier, it is way easier than you would expect.
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Yeah. So talking about shitcoins on on ledger or on Trezor, it's like I have a theory.
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It looks like a maybe like a outlook or
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conspiracy
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theory. So I would say
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that
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these
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the regulators, if they start moving forward against all these,
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against Bitcoin and crypto and trying to
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tie things down as we see in Canada happening also in the European Union. Is I think they will
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begin to approach Ledger and Trezor and tell them,
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okay, guys. You don't have the private keys, but you are actually
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operating a wallet and node infrastructure,
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and you're preparing transactions
357
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and you're broadcasting
358
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transactions. What you're actually doing, you're a payment provider,
359
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and you're giving out these hardware tokens
360
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to,
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to your users, and you don't KYC on AML then. So
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and so what I would say is, like, they will receive a lot of pressure, ledger, and trust, and others to actually KYC, AML the whole infrastructure. So if you're signing up there or you're you're
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you're using this, they will ask for KYC AML,
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and they will,
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I think, directly report it.
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I, you know, I mean, I tend to think that that's kind of where we're heading, especially when you see,
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you know, the clip that I played in the beginning from
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the Canadian government. But, the one of the good things here to keep in mind is,
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because we have Spectre, because we have Sparrow, because we have Electrum and BlueWallet,
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or maybe less so BlueWallet because BlueWallet uses their own Electrum server, but,
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by default.
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You you have the option to move at that point.
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You always have the option to to move from, you know, Ledger Live or Trezza Web Suite. We have,
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Yoichi Gama in in the comments asking how do we import UTXOs from Ledger. Very, very simple. You basically install Spector wallet, you follow the prompts to install Bitcoin Core,
375
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and then you you, you click, like, add wallet and you follow the prompts on Ledger. And you plug in your Ledger, you put in your PIN, and, like, gives you this very clean UX that tells you how to connect to it.
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Same with Trezor, same with Seed Signers, same with Coldcard,
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same with all of the hardware wallets. You just once you install
378
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Specter, you just basically follow the prompts inside Specter,
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to integrate
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whatever wallet setup you have, whether that's multisig or single sig.
381
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Exactly.
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So Yeah. One more point here is, like,
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I think this will be very good for Bitcoin because if you use Ledger and Trezza and you have, like, your, I don't know, 20
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20 token or
385
00:27:33.085 --> 00:27:33.585
cryptocurrency
386
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portfolio there or your shitcoin portfolio,
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is, like,
388
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not a lot of people will actually
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start running, I don't know, 10 different nodes for 10 different,
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cryptocurrency networks. I think
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if this pressure comes on, a lot of people will just run to Bitcoin and convert all their shit coins into Bitcoin and
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because it doesn't
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00:27:54.340 --> 00:28:13.990
like, you you cannot as a as a home user, when you don't wanna use Ledger or or Trezza, it doesn't make any sense to to to run all these notes. Like, most people won't do it. So what the what a lot of people will do is, like, I think, go towards Bitcoin. And so this kind of pressure, this attack on on on the crypto space to say so in general
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is actually good for Bitcoin and and will,
395
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weed out, like, all these these Bitcoin
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projects.
397
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Yeah. I mean, I think, when we when we look at
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at these types of situations, they could be bad for Bitcoiners, like individual Bitcoiners. Mhmm. But in general, if you look at the actual ecosystem, usually,
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you know, Bitcoin has been referred to as an antifragile,
400
00:28:38.955 --> 00:28:44.715
protocol, and and, basically, the idea is that as as it gets attacked, as these weak points get hit,
401
00:28:45.035 --> 00:28:50.750
the whole system becomes more robust in response to it. And because it is free and open source software,
402
00:28:51.530 --> 00:28:52.910
that anyone can run,
403
00:28:53.450 --> 00:28:58.965
you don't have central centralized actors there that you can that you can push on. It's almost like a virus.
404
00:28:59.425 --> 00:29:00.725
The code is out there.
405
00:29:01.985 --> 00:29:03.685
Good luck stopping its distribution
406
00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:05.200
and improving.
407
00:29:06.300 --> 00:29:06.800
Exactly.
408
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:11.120
So, I mean, we were talking about shitcoins,
409
00:29:11.500 --> 00:29:17.915
so we can just jump right into it. Specter does offer support for one of the shitcoins, and that's, Liquid Bitcoin.
410
00:29:19.415 --> 00:29:23.510
What what are you what were your thoughts on adding How do you view,
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00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:27.030
that integration? I mean, I I think,
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00:29:28.530 --> 00:29:34.775
there I mean, there aren't many liquid wallets, So it's a very Yeah. It's a very key aspect of of what Specter's offering.
413
00:29:36.195 --> 00:29:37.255
So around
414
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December 2021
415
00:29:41.030 --> 00:29:42.810
early 2022, we were
416
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looking at what to do next at Specter. And
417
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we're looking at doing lightning or doing some collaborative custody solution. But then started a conversation with the Blockstream team and and Samsung
418
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and,
419
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wrapped our head around liquid. So,
420
00:29:59.760 --> 00:30:02.260
like, the nice thing about liquid is that it doesn't
421
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create
422
00:30:04.535 --> 00:30:10.395
it it does create an a new token, but it's liquid Bitcoin. So it locks in a real
423
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Bitcoin and uses
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Bitcoin,
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locked in Bitcoin as the native token.
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And,
427
00:30:19.029 --> 00:30:32.170
so and does does move around these liquid Bitcoin with confidential transactions, which basically, in a confidential transaction, you cannot see if liquid Bitcoin was moved or if, a stable coin was moved or
428
00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:45.745
some kind of other token was moved up equity token or debt token, a block stream mining node. So you cannot see what was moved and how much was moved. But you just see the transaction there, that there's a transaction happening. So we thought that,
429
00:30:46.625 --> 00:30:48.840
the liquid model fits better
430
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:51.400
the the the specter model because it's also,
431
00:30:52.419 --> 00:30:59.815
like, it doesn't have to be always on. It doesn't have to be always connected like in lightning. So it fits fits the the spect approach better.
432
00:31:00.355 --> 00:31:05.895
And, we see something that is an interesting tool for Bitcoiners and, for
433
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.520
the the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole.
434
00:31:08.820 --> 00:31:18.715
And if something is underdeveloped, then, yeah, we like to we like to touch it and, and and and work on it because we also see a lot of back at the time already, we saw a lot of,
435
00:31:19.835 --> 00:31:24.655
projects in lightning, and we're seeing a lot of things happening in lightning. So we thought, like, okay.
436
00:31:24.980 --> 00:31:27.720
Liquid may be an interesting niche for us. And
437
00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:28.820
it was a bit,
438
00:31:29.540 --> 00:31:35.825
it was tough to integrate. It wasn't easy. We we we we were working hard with this, got great support by the Blockstream team.
439
00:31:36.205 --> 00:31:38.465
And then we launched around October.
440
00:31:38.765 --> 00:31:39.085
And,
441
00:31:39.805 --> 00:31:40.865
Liquid is not
442
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:42.500
very popular with,
443
00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:44.520
with with Bitcorners.
444
00:31:44.900 --> 00:31:45.800
We see this.
445
00:31:46.260 --> 00:31:46.760
And
446
00:31:48.235 --> 00:31:49.135
but I think there's
447
00:31:49.515 --> 00:31:55.375
certain aspects around the confidential transactions, about around the stablecoins. Like, if you wanna touch on stablecoins,
448
00:31:55.870 --> 00:31:59.570
there is a clear use case for us. People use it. People want it.
449
00:31:59.950 --> 00:32:00.270
And,
450
00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:04.529
it's all happening on all this economic activity around these,
451
00:32:06.335 --> 00:32:12.274
stable coins is happening mostly on Ethereum and Tron. So as a Bitcoin, I don't want to see this happening on these
452
00:32:13.550 --> 00:32:19.970
shitcoin networks, basically. I want to see this happening on the site on an on a on a Bitcoin native side chain,
453
00:32:20.910 --> 00:32:26.925
which is clearly federated by a group of companies and organizations. But at at least it's
454
00:32:27.385 --> 00:32:30.525
it's it's Bitcoin native, and it's it's it's it's looking
455
00:32:31.790 --> 00:32:36.450
to to be as close to to the Bitcoin infrastructure as possible and so integrated as possible.
456
00:32:36.910 --> 00:32:38.350
So this was all I mean, I was
457
00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:42.054
there. I was mostly teasing you with the shitcoin comment.
458
00:32:42.534 --> 00:32:43.434
Thank you for,
459
00:32:44.215 --> 00:32:52.310
I was teasing. Like, I I don't know. I think in 2019 back, we had a meeting there in, during the conference in San Francisco with,
460
00:32:53.030 --> 00:32:57.610
Adam Beck, and we were I was teasing him that he's building a clown coin factory.
461
00:32:58.375 --> 00:33:01.755
Exactly. Well, I mean, especially since it's it's
462
00:33:02.055 --> 00:33:04.395
so so you can transfer this liquid Bitcoin,
463
00:33:05.830 --> 00:33:08.410
which is is pegged to Bitcoin 1 to 1.
464
00:33:08.790 --> 00:33:10.730
The trust model is similar to
465
00:33:11.430 --> 00:33:13.210
what you would expect, like, a multisig
466
00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:17.934
kind of semi custodial model where you have all these federation members,
467
00:33:19.195 --> 00:33:21.695
who basically need to collude to steal the money,
468
00:33:21.995 --> 00:33:24.255
has the ability to send tokens on top.
469
00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:27.360
I had a really great conversation with Adam Back,
470
00:33:28.299 --> 00:33:37.585
about liquid and other things. That's, still dispatch 20. If you freaks haven't listened to it and you're more curious about liquid, go check that out. That's cildespatch.com/cd20.
471
00:33:40.180 --> 00:33:43.800
And then recently, I actually had 2 Venezuelan Bitcoiners on,
472
00:33:44.580 --> 00:33:45.960
still dispatch 52,
473
00:33:46.934 --> 00:33:51.355
And they were talking about stable coins, which can be transferred on liquid,
474
00:33:53.950 --> 00:33:58.770
and and how useful they are to the Latin American population. So I think a lot of,
475
00:33:59.790 --> 00:34:03.570
you know, from my perspective, Bitcoin is my stable coin. I think
476
00:34:04.175 --> 00:34:05.635
on a long time scale,
477
00:34:06.895 --> 00:34:08.994
it's the most, you know, stable
478
00:34:09.295 --> 00:34:13.075
asset we will ever have. I think it'll trend up with adoption, but as
479
00:34:13.410 --> 00:34:15.510
adoption hit starts to hit a critical mass,
480
00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:21.030
it'll always increase slowly in purchasing power, but it'll become very stable.
481
00:34:21.455 --> 00:34:24.995
But in the short term, when you're looking at a lot of these developing world countries,
482
00:34:26.175 --> 00:34:30.355
they they really wanna peg themselves to the US dollar. They want access to the US dollars,
483
00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:34.270
and Stablecoins provide a route for them in that regard. So I guess,
484
00:34:34.890 --> 00:34:36.650
Liquid could be I mean,
485
00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:41.805
Specter could be a way that they could hold. Right? They can hold these these stable coins.
486
00:34:42.505 --> 00:34:47.145
Yes. So Now I'm curious is Yes. The can you use
487
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:49.099
can you do multisig
488
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:49.900
liquid
489
00:34:51.160 --> 00:34:51.900
on Spectre?
490
00:34:52.680 --> 00:34:53.180
Yes.
491
00:34:53.560 --> 00:34:57.785
With the Spectre hardware wallet, you can do it. I think we are working
492
00:34:58.085 --> 00:34:58.585
on
493
00:34:58.964 --> 00:35:07.210
Oh, because the hardware wallets themselves need to support it as well. Yes. So the the there's for for liquid hardware, we have the Jade,
494
00:35:07.750 --> 00:35:14.555
but I'm not sure if it can already do multisig. I think we are we are working on that. We're or the the green team is working on that.
495
00:35:16.474 --> 00:35:18.575
But with Spectre with the Spectre
496
00:35:19.035 --> 00:35:22.734
DIY or the Spectre Shield, we have new device coming up.
497
00:35:24.530 --> 00:35:25.570
You can use,
498
00:35:26.130 --> 00:35:26.630
liquid,
499
00:35:27.490 --> 00:35:27.990
multisignature
500
00:35:28.369 --> 00:35:29.510
cold storage there.
501
00:35:29.970 --> 00:35:30.369
And,
502
00:35:30.930 --> 00:35:37.425
yeah, I wanted to yeah. This is this is something also important if you start issuing equity tokens or Bitcoin bonds and
503
00:35:37.965 --> 00:35:40.545
you want to be able to hold these tokens,
504
00:35:41.090 --> 00:35:43.190
in multisig or also as a company
505
00:35:43.570 --> 00:35:44.310
if you wanna,
506
00:35:45.410 --> 00:35:47.350
hold, like, a part of your
507
00:35:47.730 --> 00:35:57.055
treasury in or, like, of your you wanna you have your Bitcoin stack and cold storage, but you want to hold some stable coin for working capital stability.
508
00:35:57.829 --> 00:35:58.150
So,
509
00:35:58.790 --> 00:36:01.849
this is something also you wanna probably hold in in,
510
00:36:02.630 --> 00:36:03.130
multisig,
511
00:36:03.510 --> 00:36:10.175
in a liquid multisig coal storage. And And this is something I really noticed in El Salvador when I was down there in, June,
512
00:36:11.835 --> 00:36:16.320
that the price went down from 60 to 30,000, and all these small,
513
00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:20.340
hotels there and restaurants and everybody,
514
00:36:21.040 --> 00:36:22.340
they didn't want to
515
00:36:23.745 --> 00:36:37.880
accept Bitcoin anymore. And so and I was like, what's what's going on? And they basically had their working capital balance crash. Like, on the way up, everybody wanted to have Bitcoin. And on the way down, it got really, really painful for these small businesses
516
00:36:38.625 --> 00:36:40.085
because, you cannot
517
00:36:40.385 --> 00:36:44.165
run your little hotel without working capital stability,
518
00:36:44.625 --> 00:36:45.685
which means that
519
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:53.700
you get paid in in Bitcoin, then Bitcoin price crashes, and you have to buy new supplies for your restaurant or pay your employees. So
520
00:36:54.585 --> 00:36:55.085
this
521
00:36:55.385 --> 00:36:58.205
we are not there yet. We need some kind of
522
00:36:58.585 --> 00:36:59.645
short term stability.
523
00:37:00.185 --> 00:37:01.405
And short term stability,
524
00:37:02.025 --> 00:37:03.530
well, is not especially
525
00:37:03.910 --> 00:37:04.790
is what you get,
526
00:37:05.270 --> 00:37:08.810
with Bitcoin. You get it to the upside over the long term, but,
527
00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:13.355
running a business on on Bitcoin, if you don't have a strong capital,
528
00:37:13.895 --> 00:37:14.395
how
529
00:37:14.935 --> 00:37:15.435
you
530
00:37:15.974 --> 00:37:16.474
say,
531
00:37:17.734 --> 00:37:20.795
basis, reserve, it's it's it's really difficult. So
532
00:37:21.095 --> 00:37:21.595
yeah.
533
00:37:22.060 --> 00:37:24.400
So the these 2 sides are really
534
00:37:25.100 --> 00:37:33.125
I mean, I think most Bitcoiners can relate at least, I mean, any Bitcoiner that's all in and makes money, may like, earns Bitcoin directly,
535
00:37:33.985 --> 00:37:35.925
can relate to, you know, just your
536
00:37:36.465 --> 00:37:41.579
your net worth dropping by 50% in a couple weeks is not never a good feeling.
537
00:37:44.520 --> 00:37:45.000
So,
538
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:51.015
before we continue, so, I mean, you helped run the Adopting Bitcoin conference in El Salvador.
539
00:37:51.315 --> 00:37:51.815
Right?
540
00:37:52.674 --> 00:37:58.930
Yes. So in June, when I was there, I met with Nicolas, which is the CTO of Bitcoin Beach and,
541
00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:00.310
the Gallo team.
542
00:38:00.770 --> 00:38:05.590
And, I was there, and I was, like, a bit surprised that in July, there wasn't
543
00:38:06.075 --> 00:38:07.855
more Bitcoin activity. We had.
544
00:38:08.555 --> 00:38:13.850
We had, Mark Moss. But, basically, it was just a a bunch of 20 Bitcoiners there, and so we
545
00:38:14.330 --> 00:38:18.270
started talking about what what can be done. And one thing was that,
546
00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:27.355
for the Aaron, Nicola, and me, we set up the Bitcoin meetup in in San Salvador and really kick started this, but he we also did this to have a
547
00:38:28.075 --> 00:38:32.079
to meet the local Bitcoiners, which was helpful for Aaron, but also
548
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:39.005
to to to prepare the ground for a Bitcoin conference, the adopting Bitcoin conference. And what actually happened is that,
549
00:38:39.565 --> 00:38:43.164
the first week we're out in, in El Zonte, and the second week,
550
00:38:43.565 --> 00:38:47.105
Nicola and me, we went to to San Salvador. And through my
551
00:38:47.490 --> 00:38:48.550
LinkedIn contacts,
552
00:38:48.850 --> 00:39:00.305
con I'm a little bit of a LinkedIn monster there. I contacted a bunch of bankers and and and managers there in San Salvador. We had meetings with a bunch of banks there. And we came in there, and, basically,
553
00:39:00.685 --> 00:39:06.305
nobody knew about what they wanna do. And they were talking one bank was talking to Ripple, actually.
554
00:39:07.070 --> 00:39:07.890
And so
555
00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:14.130
I was then putting a bit more pressure on on Nikola and said, hey. We need a a conference. And then
556
00:39:14.975 --> 00:39:15.875
great kudos,
557
00:39:16.255 --> 00:39:17.615
huge respect to the whole,
558
00:39:18.335 --> 00:39:26.690
Bitcoin Beach and Galloway team there that they actually decided to pull this off. And we had a really, really fantastic conference in November with amazing energy,
559
00:39:27.790 --> 00:39:28.270
600
560
00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:29.730
700 Bitcoiners,
561
00:39:30.535 --> 00:39:32.875
on the ground in the Sheraton Hotel there.
562
00:39:33.335 --> 00:39:43.710
And, we had a fantastic time. We had a a beach day. We had 2 day conferences with much much of a lightning focus. I would like to add a little bit more Bitcoin focus.
563
00:39:44.010 --> 00:39:44.510
It's
564
00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:47.950
not yet announced, but I think it will be
565
00:39:48.285 --> 00:39:50.045
coming back in November to,
566
00:39:50.525 --> 00:39:52.785
El Salvador, and it's gonna be
567
00:39:53.085 --> 00:40:02.210
off the chart. It was an amazing energy lineup and the agenda was great. I mean, as someone who unfortunately couldn't make it, I was feeling some massive FOMO.
568
00:40:03.310 --> 00:40:05.869
To to other people who weren't able to make it,
569
00:40:06.545 --> 00:40:09.125
if you go to adopting Bitcoin if you go to bitcointv.com,
570
00:40:09.905 --> 00:40:11.685
adopting Bitcoin has a channel there,
571
00:40:12.545 --> 00:40:13.480
with all the talks,
572
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.500
highly recommend some really great content and discussions,
573
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.380
came out of that, that event. So thank you for running that.
574
00:40:24.415 --> 00:40:25.475
What was your
575
00:40:26.095 --> 00:40:28.675
I that was your first time in El Salvador. Right?
576
00:40:28.975 --> 00:40:35.350
No. My first time was after the announcement, like, a month later. Right. And then I started talking them into it. And then my second time,
577
00:40:35.890 --> 00:40:50.285
I came for the conference, like, a week before and week afterwards. We will probably also be the month in November. This time, the What was your opinion of of on the ground in El Salvador? I mean, the first country to, you know, adopt a Bitcoin nationwide.
578
00:40:50.870 --> 00:40:51.370
Mhmm.
579
00:40:51.910 --> 00:41:00.250
How did it feel? You know, is it did it feel like a success so far? What were the pain points? How did the average people seem to take it?
580
00:41:00.895 --> 00:41:03.315
I mean, it feels really electric because
581
00:41:04.415 --> 00:41:14.020
especially in July when you came there, like, okay. It's just really a little beach town, and we have basically 20 shops or whatever, 30 shops accepting Bitcoin there. It wasn't
582
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:16.820
it wasn't like the big big thing that we
583
00:41:17.120 --> 00:41:18.900
we we see on Bitcoin Twitter.
584
00:41:19.395 --> 00:41:27.655
But, and we were, like, also like, there was another reason for the conference with the bank stuff. We were really worried that the 7th September, the Bitcoin
585
00:41:28.200 --> 00:41:36.220
starts in El Salvador, and basically nothing works. Everything is a shit show, and, and it didn't come like this. So the 7th September was
586
00:41:36.675 --> 00:41:40.535
really successful. We can say about Chivo, what you want, but,
587
00:41:41.155 --> 00:41:45.150
this it it it kinda works. And it for a government
588
00:41:46.970 --> 00:41:47.630
put together
589
00:41:48.170 --> 00:41:50.910
The low bar kinda works is is a success?
590
00:41:51.425 --> 00:42:03.180
It's pretty it's pretty good. You know? And then in November, we came back in November, and, like, the difference was massive. You can we landed in at the airport, went to the little
591
00:42:03.640 --> 00:42:06.060
restaurant store there, and could right away
592
00:42:06.494 --> 00:42:11.075
pay our lunch with Bitcoin. It wasn't lightning. It was on chain, whatever, but it was already,
593
00:42:11.375 --> 00:42:16.010
that. And then you go into the town, and you can go to the little pupusa,
594
00:42:17.910 --> 00:42:19.210
arepa shop there
595
00:42:19.510 --> 00:42:20.010
and,
596
00:42:20.310 --> 00:42:33.505
and and pay there. But you also can go to McDonald's, to Starbucks, and and stuff just works. You know? And so this is, like, it's really exciting to to see this and to be the this is the first place. This is ground 0.
597
00:42:34.049 --> 00:42:34.449
And,
598
00:42:34.849 --> 00:42:35.829
yes. So
599
00:42:36.289 --> 00:42:40.150
I think also, like, to expand a little bit on that here is, like,
600
00:42:42.435 --> 00:42:44.935
a lot of people are thinking, oh,
601
00:42:45.795 --> 00:42:51.980
Bukele and stuff. I think Bukele needs the Bitcoiners now way more than than than the Bitcoiners need,
602
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.000
Bokele or Bitcoin needs Bokele.
603
00:42:56.035 --> 00:43:00.215
He really is is betting big time on on the whole Bitcoin story.
604
00:43:00.675 --> 00:43:00.995
And,
605
00:43:01.555 --> 00:43:02.295
I think
606
00:43:03.369 --> 00:43:08.990
he's also very dependent on his public perception and stuff. So he needs to be
607
00:43:09.690 --> 00:43:15.655
well received by the Bitcoiners on Bitcoin Twitter. So I think the game theory is quite interesting there.
608
00:43:15.955 --> 00:43:24.190
I mean, definitely for him to the extreme, but, I mean, I would say that's probably pretty consistent with the way you should look at, like, every government, every individual, every corporation.
609
00:43:25.450 --> 00:43:27.710
They all need Bitcoin more than,
610
00:43:28.085 --> 00:43:31.305
Bitcoin needs them. Bitcoin's bigger than any of those individuals.
611
00:43:33.444 --> 00:43:33.944
Just
612
00:43:34.244 --> 00:43:36.744
a complete tangent because this is awesome.
613
00:43:37.279 --> 00:43:40.420
The guy, Yoshi, who asked a question earlier about Ledger
614
00:43:40.720 --> 00:43:46.180
and using it with Specter has completed his onboarding process while we were having this conversation. So
615
00:43:47.385 --> 00:43:50.904
Yay. I think that just goes to show it just goes to show how easy,
616
00:43:51.305 --> 00:43:53.484
you guys have gotten that UX down.
617
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:56.180
Yeah. El Salvador is a very interesting,
618
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:58.180
case study.
619
00:43:58.640 --> 00:43:59.300
It definitely
620
00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:02.180
it it's it's it's what you would expect,
621
00:44:03.175 --> 00:44:06.955
that a challenger country, a small country would adopt Bitcoin first.
622
00:44:08.215 --> 00:44:10.075
It happened sooner than I expected.
623
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:15.940
I'm curious to see if other countries start to follow suit in, like, kind of a Domino's type of way.
624
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:17.460
Obviously,
625
00:44:17.985 --> 00:44:20.005
the Chivo Wallet has a lot of privacy,
626
00:44:21.425 --> 00:44:25.685
and custodial concerns in terms of the government's control over it,
627
00:44:27.819 --> 00:44:28.319
But,
628
00:44:30.140 --> 00:44:37.245
the the key aspect there is that Chivo does interact with the greater Bitcoin Monetary Network and and the Lightning Network. And,
629
00:44:38.205 --> 00:44:42.865
as a result, you can use tools like Specter in your own node or BlueWallet or Moon
630
00:44:43.245 --> 00:44:43.905
to use
631
00:44:46.630 --> 00:44:55.664
rather than relying on the government wallet. Like, I don't think people should be relying on that gov that government wallet. It does it does concern me a bit, and I think people should be,
632
00:44:57.885 --> 00:45:04.390
it's important that as big corners, especially ones with public platforms, that we talk about the trade offs, that are inherent there,
633
00:45:05.490 --> 00:45:14.825
because they are real trade offs and they are real risks to users of of that wallet. But but that is awesome. I really need to make my my pilgrimage to El Salvador. I am
634
00:45:15.125 --> 00:45:17.865
a little bit ashamed of myself that I haven't done it yet,
635
00:45:19.390 --> 00:45:23.329
but I I I will soon. Hopefully, I can make, the next adopting Bitcoin
636
00:45:23.869 --> 00:45:26.290
conference. That would be that would be fucking fire.
637
00:45:29.145 --> 00:45:31.805
I wanna make sure you have enough FOMO that
638
00:45:32.425 --> 00:45:34.045
you you can't let us go.
639
00:45:34.505 --> 00:45:35.005
Well,
640
00:45:35.700 --> 00:45:36.420
pretty good at,
641
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:41.240
I I have a feeling you're gonna be successful at that. I mean, I got so much mambo on the last one.
642
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.095
Before we switch into El Salvador question,
643
00:45:45.055 --> 00:45:50.515
you know, people are giving you shit in the comments about liquid integration saying you shouldn't have liquid integrated.
644
00:45:50.974 --> 00:45:52.575
I think it's important for people to realize, that it is an optional feature.
645
00:46:01.040 --> 00:46:02.795
And And then there's also this aspect,
646
00:46:03.255 --> 00:46:05.734
I mean, we're gonna be talking about another feature that,
647
00:46:07.255 --> 00:46:09.595
has been controversial. But before we get there,
648
00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:12.140
you know,
649
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:14.920
Spectre is MIT licensed, which is,
650
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.220
one of the least restrictive open source licenses available.
651
00:46:18.955 --> 00:46:23.515
Not only can you inspect and verify the code, but you can modify, distribute, and sell it,
652
00:46:24.955 --> 00:46:27.775
without any additional permission from the Spectre team.
653
00:46:28.940 --> 00:46:33.200
So if there is a lot of demand for a Spectre wallet without liquid in it,
654
00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:37.885
another team, a group of individuals, a single individual can can fork out liquid.
655
00:46:39.565 --> 00:46:47.425
How do you so you have that option available to to you as a user. That is one of the beauties of free and open source software.
656
00:46:48.680 --> 00:46:55.180
Morris, how how do you how do you view because Spector's interesting project. Right? And I I just had the seed signer
657
00:46:55.585 --> 00:47:00.405
I had seed signer on, yesterday. I know Keith's involved with the seed signer project as well.
658
00:47:01.025 --> 00:47:03.125
That is also an MIT licensed product.
659
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.740
There's a lot of interesting different models that are going on in terms of
660
00:47:09.120 --> 00:47:11.940
open source projects that are also being run for profit.
661
00:47:12.535 --> 00:47:17.175
And he's he's not actually running Seed signer for profit right now, but he is considering different,
662
00:47:17.575 --> 00:47:18.635
potential paths.
663
00:47:19.415 --> 00:47:20.615
How do you view,
664
00:47:21.910 --> 00:47:31.210
your choice of the MIT license of of having Spectre as proper free open source software with this also attempted path to monetization? Like, how do you how do you
665
00:47:31.735 --> 00:47:32.875
how do you look at that?
666
00:47:34.615 --> 00:47:35.115
So
667
00:47:35.735 --> 00:47:40.635
just to explain a little bit how how we think about this. So the the Spectre,
668
00:47:41.730 --> 00:47:42.950
like, core version,
669
00:47:43.410 --> 00:47:47.110
which I mentioned before, is, like, your note, your verification,
670
00:47:47.410 --> 00:47:49.270
your wallet infrastructure, your privacy,
671
00:47:50.285 --> 00:47:57.985
your your keys, your Bitcoin. Like, this is the core feature of Spectra. And this is the should be always free and should always
672
00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:03.400
put the user by default into the right direction that he
673
00:48:03.700 --> 00:48:08.185
runs his own node. I mean, we will maybe add later on some, electron
674
00:48:08.965 --> 00:48:09.465
feature,
675
00:48:09.765 --> 00:48:10.265
but
676
00:48:11.285 --> 00:48:12.885
I would like to really keep it,
677
00:48:14.405 --> 00:48:20.700
by default node. And this is something where I square a little bit with Sparrow, where the default mode is more,
678
00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.220
towards,
679
00:48:22.839 --> 00:48:23.339
running,
680
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:25.185
it with a Electrum
681
00:48:25.565 --> 00:48:30.465
preselected Electrum servers, I think MZ, Blockstream, Mempool, and others.
682
00:48:30.925 --> 00:48:31.425
But
683
00:48:31.750 --> 00:48:35.290
I think, like, default settings really define the long term user behavior.
684
00:48:35.829 --> 00:48:42.835
And then you have set up your your Spectra or your your desktop wallet. And I think then the question comes in, like,
685
00:48:44.734 --> 00:48:52.390
how do you, like, as a team, maintain it, and how do you keep supporting it and and keep this wallet info experience
686
00:48:52.769 --> 00:48:54.470
really great. So there are,
687
00:48:54.930 --> 00:48:58.655
different ways to go forward. Like, one would be a conjoin,
688
00:48:59.194 --> 00:48:59.694
integration
689
00:49:00.155 --> 00:49:01.055
where Sparrow
690
00:49:01.355 --> 00:49:03.934
has gone or Wasabi has gone that you,
691
00:49:04.359 --> 00:49:06.700
earn money on the on the CoinJoin side,
692
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:10.619
and the the the money you earn is helping to improve,
693
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:12.380
the wallet experience.
694
00:49:12.964 --> 00:49:13.704
Or you
695
00:49:14.005 --> 00:49:15.545
add add other tools,
696
00:49:16.724 --> 00:49:17.224
like,
697
00:49:17.925 --> 00:49:20.345
you could, integrate a TDEX or,
698
00:49:20.805 --> 00:49:21.865
other other features
699
00:49:24.160 --> 00:49:24.819
or services
700
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:25.440
like,
701
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:26.819
Swan Bitcoin
702
00:49:27.359 --> 00:49:27.859
and
703
00:49:28.640 --> 00:49:31.619
earn money through the cooperation with these companies.
704
00:49:32.115 --> 00:49:35.475
And from these fees, can pay a team to support,
705
00:49:36.115 --> 00:49:38.535
the desktop wallet in in in such a sense.
706
00:49:38.835 --> 00:49:39.335
So,
707
00:49:39.640 --> 00:49:43.260
to answer your question here, I don't really see a point in,
708
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:57.809
in forking out Spectre here because, like, the if you download Spectre and you run it by default, you don't activate any coin joint tools or services that you might wanna use to to buy or sell Bitcoin,
709
00:49:58.750 --> 00:50:00.210
or Bitcoin backed loans,
710
00:50:01.069 --> 00:50:05.329
features or something like this, then you you have a you have
711
00:50:05.674 --> 00:50:08.335
you have a a clean free default
712
00:50:08.714 --> 00:50:09.454
mode here,
713
00:50:09.994 --> 00:50:14.690
if that if that makes Your point is it's it's optional, so there's no need to fork it.
714
00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:15.670
Yes.
715
00:50:16.450 --> 00:50:16.950
And,
716
00:50:17.490 --> 00:50:22.230
like, we want to we have a we have a good group of of legit Bitcoiners working on this,
717
00:50:23.705 --> 00:50:26.925
and they will will will will maintain this as,
718
00:50:27.305 --> 00:50:28.925
as as we build out this
719
00:50:29.385 --> 00:50:30.365
this this model.
720
00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:33.779
Right. So the defensive position is is
721
00:50:34.319 --> 00:50:35.940
we you have a solid reputation.
722
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:37.700
You have,
723
00:50:38.725 --> 00:50:42.585
solid eyes looking at the code and and improving the code.
724
00:50:43.445 --> 00:50:47.180
So the overwhelming majority of people will use your distribution
725
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:48.220
even if,
726
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.220
technically, anyone can fork it and
727
00:50:53.615 --> 00:51:05.180
and and do what they want with it. Right? Yes. And if somebody comes along and says, like, oh, we want to fork Spectre and when we are happy to go into a discussion then to see, like, okay. How can we
728
00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.980
provide a, like, a Spectre minimal
729
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:10.405
version or something like this? Right.
730
00:51:10.845 --> 00:51:14.385
And and support this team in in in offering, which is
731
00:51:14.765 --> 00:51:15.505
which has
732
00:51:16.365 --> 00:51:18.920
which which which is just like the minimal minimal
733
00:51:19.299 --> 00:51:22.279
OG version to say so. So but at the moment,
734
00:51:22.819 --> 00:51:27.505
to be frank, we don't have the resources. We are we're working on on getting in some resources
735
00:51:27.805 --> 00:51:29.825
to to to build out the team
736
00:51:30.205 --> 00:51:34.910
and, and, and and and keep improving the the specter overall.
737
00:51:35.690 --> 00:51:36.010
And,
738
00:51:36.730 --> 00:51:38.270
yeah. So the
739
00:51:38.809 --> 00:51:40.030
Do you guys have
740
00:51:40.410 --> 00:51:42.829
a do you guys have a public donation page?
741
00:51:43.665 --> 00:51:46.305
We have a public donation page. It's a little bit,
742
00:51:46.785 --> 00:51:48.165
we are a little bit,
743
00:51:49.345 --> 00:51:53.440
on hidden on our GitHub, I guess. But if you come, go on our GitHub,
744
00:51:54.060 --> 00:51:54.880
help wanted,
745
00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:56.800
and there's a donation link.
746
00:51:57.180 --> 00:52:02.325
And, yes. So we we we bootstrapped the thing for the last 3 years with,
747
00:52:03.505 --> 00:52:04.005
Stephan's,
748
00:52:04.785 --> 00:52:08.644
brainpower and low salaries and my low salaries and
749
00:52:09.710 --> 00:52:13.810
lots of Bitcoin and Satoshis that I put into Spectre
750
00:52:14.110 --> 00:52:15.890
to to have this wallet out there.
751
00:52:18.685 --> 00:52:19.165
Yeah. Like
752
00:52:19.645 --> 00:52:21.025
Yeah. Go on. If you look
753
00:52:21.484 --> 00:52:23.105
at, you know, if you look at
754
00:52:23.484 --> 00:52:29.210
what I think, biased opinion, the most important wallets in the space aside from Core, obviously,
755
00:52:29.750 --> 00:52:31.690
you know, you've got Specter, Sparrow.
756
00:52:32.310 --> 00:52:35.770
I would consider BlueWallet on that list. I would consider Samura on that list.
757
00:52:36.205 --> 00:52:44.305
But just looking at Spectre and and Sparrow, like, those are, like, your I think your 2 best choices for your multisig, your cold storage,
758
00:52:45.160 --> 00:52:50.460
that the most hardcore Bitcoiners that that should be like you know, their their default options is one of those 2.
759
00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:52.220
And the Spectre
760
00:52:53.045 --> 00:52:53.865
technical team,
761
00:52:54.405 --> 00:52:54.985
it's Stefan
762
00:52:55.685 --> 00:52:59.465
is the the giant brain doing the hardest things that are closest to Bitcoin,
763
00:53:00.070 --> 00:53:02.890
that are, like, way more complicated than than I can understand.
764
00:53:03.430 --> 00:53:05.290
And then you basically have, like,
765
00:53:05.590 --> 00:53:08.090
one other, you know, mostly full time developer.
766
00:53:08.710 --> 00:53:33.819
I, you know, I I came into Spectre just as a open source contributor. I was like, hey, I'd I'd like it to able to do, you know, I'd like it to be able to use Tor. Do do you mind if I build Tor support? And they're like, oh my god. Please do. You know? Like, hey. Do you mind if I make it so I can plug in my USB hardware wallet? I'm, like, holy shit. Yes. Please do that. But the team is tiny. And then, you know, Sparrow, it's
767
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:35.660
just Craig. Right?
768
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:39.019
I shouldn't have phrased it's just Craig raw
769
00:53:39.405 --> 00:53:39.905
comma.
770
00:53:41.285 --> 00:53:41.785
Correct?
771
00:53:43.165 --> 00:53:44.145
He's a monster.
772
00:53:44.765 --> 00:53:48.225
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the guy is so prolific. Right? He's so impressive.
773
00:53:48.799 --> 00:53:51.760
But and and I think he just got a grant recently from,
774
00:53:52.160 --> 00:53:52.660
HRF.
775
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:53.619
Correct.
776
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:55.380
But, like,
777
00:53:55.680 --> 00:53:57.859
these are 2 really important wallets
778
00:53:58.335 --> 00:53:58.835
being
779
00:53:59.135 --> 00:53:59.635
primarily
780
00:54:00.175 --> 00:54:01.315
worked on and maintained
781
00:54:01.935 --> 00:54:10.540
by, like, people you can count on one hand. Like, it it's insane. And I don't know what the the funding, the revenue model solution is.
782
00:54:11.160 --> 00:54:12.220
I mean, I'm currently
783
00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:15.900
community funded to do my full time seed signer work,
784
00:54:16.405 --> 00:54:16.905
but
785
00:54:17.205 --> 00:54:18.025
it's also
786
00:54:18.805 --> 00:54:20.345
meant to be short term.
787
00:54:20.645 --> 00:54:24.020
Like, I had this window of opportunity make donations work.
788
00:54:24.500 --> 00:54:31.240
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I can't I can't plan the next, you know, year or 2 or 3 of my life around being community funded,
789
00:54:31.795 --> 00:54:37.015
but I was able to carve out, hey. I can do the next 3 months. And if the money runs out after that,
790
00:54:37.315 --> 00:54:39.735
okay, then I go find a normie job.
791
00:54:40.890 --> 00:54:44.590
But just these these super important projects are run by so few people
792
00:54:45.290 --> 00:54:51.105
with, you know, shoestring or nonexistent budgets. It's it's it's mind boggling. Like, it it
793
00:54:52.065 --> 00:54:58.405
I when I think about it, it makes me feel like the space is a little more vulnerable than we realize.
794
00:54:58.730 --> 00:55:02.589
Oh, yeah. We're way more vulnerable than people realize, especially on Bitcoin Twitter.
795
00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:04.109
Well, first off,
796
00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:09.914
Maurice, you failed the question earlier. If people wanna donate to Spectre, you go to donate dotspector.solutions,
797
00:55:11.895 --> 00:55:15.434
to support them. Consider supporting them if you like,
798
00:55:16.369 --> 00:55:18.069
if if if you like their software.
799
00:55:20.130 --> 00:55:21.430
The second thing is,
800
00:55:21.730 --> 00:55:24.789
you know, Keith, like, I I think what's really cool
801
00:55:25.125 --> 00:55:32.185
about Bitcoin, and I I find it it's a very interesting subtopic of Bitcoin, is this is this idea of monetizing,
802
00:55:32.885 --> 00:55:34.265
free and open source projects.
803
00:55:34.780 --> 00:55:37.840
Because Bitcoin, all of a sudden, brings in these
804
00:55:38.220 --> 00:55:39.280
these new possibilities
805
00:55:39.580 --> 00:55:40.800
in terms of actually,
806
00:55:41.580 --> 00:55:44.674
monetizing without integrating, you know, 3rd party companies or,
807
00:55:46.494 --> 00:55:53.154
centralized third parties, like, taking donations via Stripe. So, like, as much as the donation model is probably not sustainable,
808
00:55:54.240 --> 00:56:02.580
it's definitely way more practical in a post Bitcoin world because, you know, you're just spinning up a BTC pay server or something. People can pay you with any Bitcoin wallet,
809
00:56:03.825 --> 00:56:06.325
without KYC, without a centralized third party.
810
00:56:07.025 --> 00:56:08.725
But then on top of that,
811
00:56:09.105 --> 00:56:11.445
some of these models that are being tested out,
812
00:56:12.750 --> 00:56:14.850
and you mentioned Sparrow, you know,
813
00:56:15.230 --> 00:56:17.330
Craig has a public donation page,
814
00:56:17.790 --> 00:56:20.930
which everyone should go support him as well if you like Sparrow.
815
00:56:21.935 --> 00:56:23.235
I have supported him.
816
00:56:24.655 --> 00:56:29.155
The but he's also now making money from his CoinJoin integration,
817
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.299
And that is a a a actual very sustainable
818
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:34.500
business model
819
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:37.059
where when you do Coin Joins,
820
00:56:38.125 --> 00:56:41.825
when you do coin join transactions, when you do these collaborative Bitcoin transactions,
821
00:56:43.085 --> 00:56:45.744
in Sparrow Wallet, there's a fee that is paid,
822
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:50.180
and he gets a portion of it and the samurai wallet devs get a portion of it,
823
00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:54.420
purely in Bitcoin. Right? So he has this Bitcoin treasury that is basically,
824
00:56:55.744 --> 00:56:57.765
accumulating there. And, presumably,
825
00:56:58.065 --> 00:56:59.285
if he doesn't have,
826
00:56:59.984 --> 00:57:14.535
other open source contributors come in at the goodness of their heart to start contributing, he can start paying people. And that's another thing, by the way. Like, if you are a programmer, consider you know, Spectre is free free and open source software. Consider going to their GitHub. Consider contributing. Consider review.
827
00:57:15.395 --> 00:57:19.174
I'm sure Maritz and the rest of the team over there would appreciate it. So
828
00:57:19.620 --> 00:57:24.020
do consider that. Absolutely do. Absolutely do. So we are looking at the different,
829
00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:25.560
coin join implementations.
830
00:57:25.860 --> 00:57:27.960
We are in discussions there for
831
00:57:28.835 --> 00:57:31.255
join my cut web UI where some
832
00:57:31.715 --> 00:57:35.655
some something is happening with with Jigigi and, Dennis Ryman.
833
00:57:36.080 --> 00:57:38.740
And but we also We have a bounty for that.
834
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:42.340
The HRF I helped set up a bounty with HRF.
835
00:57:43.520 --> 00:57:46.095
If if whoever comes up with
836
00:57:46.395 --> 00:57:48.635
the the web UI for join market gets,
837
00:57:49.515 --> 00:57:55.250
I think we're at, like, a half a Bitcoin, but don't quote me on it. I mean, join market on Whirlpool would be really cool.
838
00:57:56.190 --> 00:58:01.825
Join market on Spectre would be really cool because I think then the the the users can actually,
839
00:58:02.365 --> 00:58:02.865
generate
840
00:58:03.645 --> 00:58:05.345
Bitcoin yields by providing
841
00:58:05.805 --> 00:58:06.704
market making
842
00:58:07.085 --> 00:58:15.670
liquidity to the to the joint market. So I think that that was really cool. But we are sort of in this whole coin joint war, especially between
843
00:58:16.050 --> 00:58:18.870
Whirlpool and Vazavi, we we try to be
844
00:58:19.305 --> 00:58:21.405
neutral, and we are looking at the different
845
00:58:21.705 --> 00:58:22.925
implementations there.
846
00:58:24.265 --> 00:58:34.369
It's a bit it's a bit difficult. And we also, like, joined the hardware wallet war. So in overall, in the hardware wallet, it's like we do respect that DIY, but for us, it was always
847
00:58:34.775 --> 00:58:37.095
we wanna keep out of the these,
848
00:58:37.815 --> 00:58:42.475
hardware wallet wars. And we we want to be very constructive and and and,
849
00:58:42.809 --> 00:58:47.549
like, contributing to the space and not, like, get into Twitter or flame wars there.
850
00:58:48.089 --> 00:58:48.589
So
851
00:58:48.890 --> 00:58:51.230
and that's why we also added, like,
852
00:58:51.965 --> 00:58:52.465
all,
853
00:58:53.645 --> 00:59:00.305
all hardware wallets which have reasonable traction in in in the space and are, like, not like a full shitcoin thing
854
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:05.539
only or something. So we we try to to to to
855
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.059
to be the neutral there. I would love to see a Vazavi
856
00:59:09.525 --> 00:59:10.345
end of it, Whirlpool,
857
00:59:11.205 --> 00:59:22.910
integration there. I think was a 2.0 is coming up with something there. So we would be interested in that. Plan your plan of attack is to integrate all 3, join market, Whirlpool, and Wasabi?
858
00:59:23.370 --> 00:59:26.030
Then let the market decide, and then you can Whirlpool
859
00:59:26.885 --> 00:59:32.825
first and wasabi later and join market finally until you have coin joint yourself out of all your Bitcoin.
860
00:59:33.525 --> 00:59:38.289
Well, I mean, look. I like the I like the idea of Spectre being, you know, the wallet of options.
861
00:59:38.910 --> 00:59:40.130
Options are good.
862
00:59:40.509 --> 00:59:41.650
Bitcoin Bitcoiners,
863
00:59:42.109 --> 00:59:45.105
should be happy they have more options, and they should choose the ones
864
00:59:47.425 --> 00:59:49.685
that, fit their particular situation best.
865
00:59:50.705 --> 00:59:53.765
But, yeah, I think Coin Sword specifically is a very interesting
866
00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:55.740
revenue model for
867
00:59:56.280 --> 01:00:00.700
especially because, you know, you kill 2 birds with 1 stone. You're able to bring in revenue for you,
868
01:00:01.160 --> 01:00:03.260
but you're improving the privacy of your users.
869
01:00:04.345 --> 01:00:08.925
Yes. And and, yeah, that's a that's a good point to to hit on now because, like, we,
870
01:00:09.704 --> 01:00:10.825
integrated first,
871
01:00:11.224 --> 01:00:13.244
with Swan Bitcoin now. So you can
872
01:00:13.770 --> 01:00:17.710
stack directly from Swan Bitcoin into your Specter Wallet. And,
873
01:00:18.410 --> 01:00:18.910
we
874
01:00:19.370 --> 01:00:20.670
we we got some
875
01:00:20.995 --> 01:00:23.495
pushback on on Twitter. So that.
876
01:00:23.955 --> 01:00:27.095
And, people were saying, hey. You're an open source
877
01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.340
wallet here. How do you square this with integrating
878
01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:35.340
a KYC company like like Swan Bitcoin?
879
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:36.460
And
880
01:00:37.805 --> 01:00:42.545
I think on a on a larger picture here is, like, we started working with Swan,
881
01:00:43.485 --> 01:00:49.660
4 months ago, 5 months ago, 4 months ago, and it really helped us a lot to build, like, this extension
882
01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:51.099
and and tool,
883
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:55.085
this extension system, which we can now use to,
884
01:00:55.545 --> 01:01:00.845
add coin joints and coin market in. And it was really great working with Pablo
885
01:01:01.210 --> 01:01:06.990
and with Jan from from Swan there and to see how they do things. And and and and through this
886
01:01:07.450 --> 01:01:14.055
building experience, we we came to our extension model there. And on the bigger picture, I would say, is that
887
01:01:15.395 --> 01:01:24.320
on the one side, as Bitcoiners, we want to hyper Bitcoinize as as fast and and defund all this clown world around us. So we want to have fast adoption.
888
01:01:24.705 --> 01:01:26.725
And on the other side, we want to be we
889
01:01:27.265 --> 01:01:29.285
want to see no KYC.
890
01:01:29.665 --> 01:01:30.065
And,
891
01:01:31.505 --> 01:01:33.765
and if you talk no KYC, I mean,
892
01:01:34.980 --> 01:01:37.960
of course, you can go with your couple of 1,000,
893
01:01:38.819 --> 01:01:48.845
euros to your local meetup. And if you are in Germany and the country is relatively safe, you can go to your local meetup and you know your buddies there and you maybe somebody wants to sell. And
894
01:01:49.465 --> 01:02:01.240
you can do that, or you can go to Bisco and you can go to to Huddl Huddl or something like this. But I think we will have very slow adoption if we if you if everybody would do no KYC.
895
01:02:01.855 --> 01:02:06.755
Oh, so let's let's talk about this because this is one of the main topics I wanted to talk about,
896
01:02:07.855 --> 01:02:10.755
and I'm torn on it personally. I mean, I
897
01:02:11.190 --> 01:02:15.290
am probably one of the more outspoken people in the space about the dangers of KYC.
898
01:02:16.230 --> 01:02:19.850
This idea that regulated Bitcoin companies are keeping lists of Bitcoiners
899
01:02:20.515 --> 01:02:24.695
and our transaction history. They're keeping those lists forever. They're sharing those lists.
900
01:02:25.075 --> 01:02:27.815
They're storing them in securely. Maybe they get stolen,
901
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:30.500
used by criminals,
902
01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:35.380
used by governments for political persecution like we're seeing in Canada right now.
903
01:02:36.425 --> 01:02:38.205
But at the same time, I,
904
01:02:38.825 --> 01:02:40.045
am a man of nuance,
905
01:02:40.665 --> 01:02:45.245
and I understand a lot of people are going to be coming in, through regulated on ramps.
906
01:02:47.090 --> 01:03:02.815
So, I mean, I I think there's a the multi pronged approach there. I think, 1st and foremost, you know, we should be obvious about the trade offs and risks there because most newcomers coming into the space do not even understand that there's trade offs or risks, so they can't make an informed decision to begin with.
907
01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:05.260
And then secondly,
908
01:03:06.040 --> 01:03:13.155
like, little things. Like, we see newcomers come in. They KYC with, like, 10 different services. They send their ID to 10 different companies
909
01:03:13.695 --> 01:03:14.994
in 8 different countries,
910
01:03:16.255 --> 01:03:19.234
just immediately and sign up for every service under the sun.
911
01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:23.660
Just like limiting your KYC exposure to maybe one on ramp,
912
01:03:24.040 --> 01:03:29.955
you know, and then never, you know, never KYC ing with another service besides that using forward privacy tools.
913
01:03:30.915 --> 01:03:34.615
So I'm a little bit torn on this debate because, actually,
914
01:03:36.869 --> 01:03:38.569
I was one of the people
915
01:03:39.510 --> 01:03:45.049
one of the most outspoken people pushing SWAN in this direction, which is this idea that
916
01:03:45.934 --> 01:03:48.994
a onramp that is regulated has a,
917
01:03:50.414 --> 01:03:50.914
responsibility
918
01:03:51.295 --> 01:03:52.275
to their users
919
01:03:52.710 --> 01:03:54.250
to make a UX flow
920
01:03:54.710 --> 01:04:00.970
that reduces their risk to KYC as much as possible. And what do I mean by that? I mean, Swan has auto
921
01:04:02.705 --> 01:04:06.325
auto buys. Right? So it's it's auto stacking instead of trading.
922
01:04:07.345 --> 01:04:35.750
So you're averaging in over time. The volatility isn't hitting you. Then they have auto withdrawals. And then but the problem with the auto withdrawals the nice thing about auto withdrawals is you don't have you have reduced custodial risk. The problem was the easiest way for them to integrate it was a fixed reused address. So anyone on chain could see that the same address was receiving, you you know, maybe $50 worth of Bitcoin a week or a $100 worth of Bitcoin a week, and they could basically assume that someone there was doing an auto DCA
923
01:04:36.370 --> 01:04:37.510
probably with Swan
924
01:04:37.905 --> 01:04:39.285
for a $100 a week,
925
01:04:40.065 --> 01:04:41.845
and was leaking all this information.
926
01:04:42.385 --> 01:04:49.950
So then where do you go from there? Well, you can you can integrate PayNIMs, which would be awesome, which is what I wanted them to do, or you can integrate
927
01:04:50.730 --> 01:04:51.230
XPUBs.
928
01:04:52.250 --> 01:04:59.385
So they came up with this XPUB tool that was an open source, locally done xPub tool where you put your xPub in instead of the xPub going to their servers.
929
01:05:01.125 --> 01:05:09.450
It it sends, like, the next ten addresses or something, but that was clunky. Most people weren't using it. Right? So enter the Spectre integration,
930
01:05:10.069 --> 01:05:11.690
which is this idea that,
931
01:05:12.914 --> 01:05:15.335
you open Spectre, you create a
932
01:05:16.194 --> 01:05:20.934
I I I guess you can either create a new wallet or you can link it with an existing wallet,
933
01:05:21.690 --> 01:05:23.390
and it sends 10 addresses
934
01:05:23.849 --> 01:05:26.589
10 fresh addresses that haven't been used to Swan.
935
01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:28.109
And then as,
936
01:05:30.744 --> 01:05:32.605
and then it reserves them within
937
01:05:33.065 --> 01:05:33.565
Spector's,
938
01:05:34.825 --> 01:05:41.840
UI, so you don't reuse them because you don't want you don't wanna use an address that is already linked to a KYC exchange.
939
01:05:43.500 --> 01:05:44.000
And
940
01:05:45.255 --> 01:05:48.315
on top of that, it doesn't have to be a hot wallet. It could be,
941
01:05:50.454 --> 01:05:55.559
it it can be a hardware wallet. It could be a multisig. It could be whatever wallet you're using in Spectre.
942
01:05:55.940 --> 01:06:01.319
So it is a evolution in terms of, you know, the UX and flow of
943
01:06:03.585 --> 01:06:08.085
of of using a KYC service. So it's obviously a benefit there,
944
01:06:09.780 --> 01:06:13.560
but you do have this inherent KYC risk that comes with it.
945
01:06:13.940 --> 01:06:18.360
So, I mean, first of all, I was gonna get Maurits' opinion, but he conveniently
946
01:06:20.164 --> 01:06:27.944
disconnected. I think his Internet probably cut. Hopefully, he'll join us soon. So while we're waiting for Maritz, Maritz just came back and joined us.
947
01:06:29.510 --> 01:06:31.210
And then Maritz, I was just explaining
948
01:06:31.670 --> 01:06:33.930
basically the flow and the different trade offs.
949
01:06:37.194 --> 01:06:48.520
I Keith, what is I mean, Keith, I know you've been working you helped work on this integration. Like, what is, like, what is your opinion here? Where do you where do you, like, how do you what's your perspective on this?
950
01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:50.440
Yeah. I mean,
951
01:06:50.740 --> 01:06:55.315
I I I totally respect the the no KYC or limit your KYC
952
01:06:55.695 --> 01:06:56.195
maximalism.
953
01:06:57.855 --> 01:07:00.675
I would describe myself as a pragmatist
954
01:07:01.055 --> 01:07:01.555
maximalist.
955
01:07:04.250 --> 01:07:04.750
And
956
01:07:05.450 --> 01:07:07.790
so for existing Swan users,
957
01:07:08.730 --> 01:07:09.790
the Spectre integration
958
01:07:10.515 --> 01:07:17.335
is a 100% a better experience and and better for their privacy. Because as you said so there the Swan,
959
01:07:18.180 --> 01:07:21.320
the normal Swan XPUB route is
960
01:07:22.100 --> 01:07:24.360
you submit your XPUB to them.
961
01:07:25.460 --> 01:07:27.160
Now they say it stays
962
01:07:27.515 --> 01:07:31.055
in your browser and your I I guess your browser calculates,
963
01:07:31.675 --> 01:07:32.735
you know, a 100
964
01:07:33.195 --> 01:07:40.550
addresses or something. It's, like, generated locally. You can, like, inspect element if you wanna look at the code. It's open source tool or whatever.
965
01:07:40.930 --> 01:07:43.650
Yeah. But I think Jan said that they send
966
01:07:44.444 --> 01:07:49.105
it was a huge number, like, maybe, like, I don't know, 500 or something. Because I asked him what happens when,
967
01:07:49.484 --> 01:07:52.224
you run out of addresses and you need to reload.
968
01:07:52.640 --> 01:07:56.340
And he's like, that hasn't happened yet because they they send so many,
969
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:57.700
over the wire.
970
01:07:59.120 --> 01:08:04.775
So so in this case and and look. You know, I wanna be I wanna be super clear. Like,
971
01:08:05.155 --> 01:08:11.950
Jan gets all of this too. Right? It's not like he's, like, greedily trying to scoop up your your private info. Like,
972
01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:15.790
he's a good actor. He's doing everything he can from his side
973
01:08:16.250 --> 01:08:17.870
working for a KYC
974
01:08:18.410 --> 01:08:19.005
on ramp,
975
01:08:19.725 --> 01:08:26.465
to limit those those touch points. And I think, you know, he's he's doing, like, a very good
976
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:30.180
admiral job admirable job even if you find
977
01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:31.380
that, like,
978
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:34.180
philosophical side of the fence disagreeable.
979
01:08:35.440 --> 01:08:36.260
But, anyway,
980
01:08:36.705 --> 01:08:43.525
with the Spectre integration, like you said, we're only sending 10 addresses at most. And then each time you sign in to Spectre,
981
01:08:43.985 --> 01:08:45.025
it checks your
982
01:08:45.580 --> 01:08:48.960
essentially, your address balance. How many how many are still outstanding?
983
01:08:49.420 --> 01:08:57.495
And it tops you up if you've received, you know, 3 auto withdrawals. And since the last time you opened Spectre, it sends 3 more to, to Swan.
984
01:08:58.995 --> 01:09:03.255
So at any one point in time, Swan only has 10 of your future addresses.
985
01:09:04.115 --> 01:09:04.615
And
986
01:09:05.950 --> 01:09:11.890
the the previous XPUB method only worked for single sig. So it's a huge upgrade
987
01:09:12.255 --> 01:09:20.995
to be able to use your own multisig cold storage. I mean, this could be your your ice cold vault that, you know, you have to travel to 5 different countries to to spend from,
988
01:09:21.350 --> 01:09:23.850
and you can be stacking to that,
989
01:09:24.630 --> 01:09:29.610
from Swan without any, you know, hardware wallet or or, messing with your your
990
01:09:30.235 --> 01:09:30.735
storage.
991
01:09:31.275 --> 01:09:32.494
Using your own node.
992
01:09:33.514 --> 01:09:38.014
Yeah. Yeah. So for existing Swan users, it's a total slam dunk.
993
01:09:38.474 --> 01:09:42.900
And even people who've been away KYC users in general, it's probably the best
994
01:09:43.360 --> 01:09:48.260
KYC if you're gonna KYC, it's probably the best KYC flow that exists right now. Right?
995
01:09:48.675 --> 01:09:53.335
Yeah. Yeah. And and something that, like, even I'm just kinda wrapping my brain around,
996
01:09:53.795 --> 01:09:55.895
I haven't used the Whirlpool
997
01:09:56.275 --> 01:09:57.495
integration with Sparrow,
998
01:09:57.990 --> 01:09:58.490
but
999
01:09:59.030 --> 01:10:03.530
I kinda feel like you should be able to have the exact same parallel wallet
1000
01:10:03.990 --> 01:10:08.365
in Spector and in Sparrow. And so when your Swan deposits come in,
1001
01:10:08.905 --> 01:10:17.230
you could just you could see them come in on the Spector side, but then open the identical wallet in Sparrow and say, hey. You know what? I wanna coinjoin those, and you've got it right there.
1002
01:10:18.650 --> 01:10:20.909
And so, I mean, you brought me to my next,
1003
01:10:21.610 --> 01:10:24.830
thing, which is, you know, Maurice is talking about integrating CoinJoin.
1004
01:10:25.845 --> 01:10:28.585
The real if you wanna talk about the real ideal
1005
01:10:29.285 --> 01:10:30.505
KYC flow,
1006
01:10:30.805 --> 01:10:33.065
we're gonna talk about is is
1007
01:10:33.780 --> 01:10:38.360
this idea that you have a hot wallet. You create a new Swan wallet inspector
1008
01:10:39.059 --> 01:10:40.599
that is only for
1009
01:10:41.185 --> 01:10:41.685
Swan,
1010
01:10:42.385 --> 01:10:47.284
you get auto withdrawals to that wallet in in fresh addresses,
1011
01:10:48.145 --> 01:10:50.324
and then it automatically coin joins.
1012
01:10:51.080 --> 01:10:58.220
And then from after it does a couple coin join rounds, you know, the user sets how many rounds they want, then it goes to your multisig cold storage
1013
01:10:58.595 --> 01:11:01.415
that's across 5 different continents. That would be,
1014
01:11:02.675 --> 01:11:07.815
like, the best flow in terms of minimizing KYC risk while still using a regulated
1015
01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:08.680
entity.
1016
01:11:09.220 --> 01:11:15.000
Yeah. 100%. I mean, that's that's how it should be. And if there were a 1000 hours in a day,
1017
01:11:16.094 --> 01:11:19.074
that that would be ready to go right now. Make it happy, Keith.
1018
01:11:20.415 --> 01:11:20.915
Well,
1019
01:11:21.375 --> 01:11:25.110
you know, in terms of so here's a pitch. In terms of funding,
1020
01:11:25.650 --> 01:11:26.150
like,
1021
01:11:27.170 --> 01:11:30.150
you know, there's like, Spectre is a tiny team.
1022
01:11:32.875 --> 01:11:33.534
Like, the
1023
01:11:34.315 --> 01:11:35.935
and I'm struggling to understand
1024
01:11:36.795 --> 01:11:47.200
the Whirlpool ecosystem. I've used it. I I get how the tools work, but just the I've been struggling to figure out what we would have to do to actually integrate with with Whirlpool.
1025
01:11:47.740 --> 01:11:56.074
And so for sure, at at some point, I'm gonna just have to have conversations with with the samurai devs and to understand this better. And with Craig because he just did it.
1026
01:11:56.455 --> 01:11:58.795
Right. Right. But but I think,
1027
01:11:59.880 --> 01:12:04.940
Craig had a little bit of an easier time because Sparrow is Java. Correct. And then the
1028
01:12:05.320 --> 01:12:09.805
the Whirlpool client that you can run on your own node is also Java.
1029
01:12:10.585 --> 01:12:11.245
And so,
1030
01:12:11.545 --> 01:12:13.725
essentially, my understanding is that Sparrow
1031
01:12:14.425 --> 01:12:17.485
is replacing the role of that local
1032
01:12:17.790 --> 01:12:22.369
Java Whirlpool client that you would run, you know, that you can, like, one click install from from Umbrel.
1033
01:12:24.110 --> 01:12:24.610
And
1034
01:12:25.015 --> 01:12:34.554
and not not that it was just a copy and paste job, but, like, you know, Java to Java, he he knows how to read that code. He can kind of absorb it and and alter whatever. Made it easier.
1035
01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:35.739
Yeah.
1036
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:40.380
Or use even some some existing libraries maybe if they're any of them are open sourced.
1037
01:12:41.079 --> 01:12:43.500
But, basically, we need a Python implementation
1038
01:12:44.455 --> 01:12:52.315
of a client that can talk to the Whirlpool servers. And as far as I know, that doesn't exist. It should exist.
1039
01:12:52.800 --> 01:13:03.925
If we have to build it, we will. I want to build it. But, like, you know, right now, I'm full time seed signer. And then when I feel like I've accomplished enough during my day,
1040
01:13:04.545 --> 01:13:13.370
I set that aside and, like, okay. Cool. What do I wanna do inspector now? You know? Or it's, like, Saturday or Sunday. Right? Like, this is what I do for fun in my free time
1041
01:13:13.990 --> 01:13:17.930
on top of my, like, quote, full time job with with Seed Signer.
1042
01:13:19.185 --> 01:13:20.805
But if somebody out there
1043
01:13:21.345 --> 01:13:25.045
has the Python skills to build a Python
1044
01:13:25.425 --> 01:13:25.925
Whirlpool
1045
01:13:26.305 --> 01:13:26.805
client,
1046
01:13:27.480 --> 01:13:31.580
hell yeah. Bring it on. Like, we'll we'll integrate that sucker as fast as we can.
1047
01:13:33.160 --> 01:13:35.020
Yep. So this is actually
1048
01:13:35.480 --> 01:13:39.864
the plan going forward is that we the the flow you just described on the
1049
01:13:40.585 --> 01:13:42.364
from stacking into your,
1050
01:13:43.305 --> 01:13:48.380
coin joint cold storage is this. This is actually the flow we wanna go towards because this is also
1051
01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:55.905
it's not perfectly in terms of no k y c because it's not that you buy it peer to peer on a meetup or a conference or
1052
01:13:57.085 --> 01:14:03.190
like that. Still a record of you purchasing Bitcoin and how much Bitcoin and what your withdrawal address was. Yes. And,
1053
01:14:03.570 --> 01:14:17.755
like, like, if you if you do this and, as a Bitcoiner, you should assume that this kind of data leaks. And we have seen it from the from the ledger hack when they had, all the Right. Customer list hacked. Like, this Home address is name, phone number, email.
1054
01:14:18.290 --> 01:14:18.790
Yes.
1055
01:14:19.730 --> 01:14:20.389
So so
1056
01:14:20.690 --> 01:14:26.790
I think going forward, when the state really understands that the money is is not under his control anymore
1057
01:14:27.225 --> 01:14:28.685
And as we see in Canada,
1058
01:14:29.065 --> 01:14:30.605
I would expect, like,
1059
01:14:31.545 --> 01:14:40.079
I would expect, like, the this this Fintrack thing there in Canada come to Bull Bitcoin and tell Francis, like, okay. We want to have a list of all your customers,
1060
01:14:40.699 --> 01:14:44.320
all the email addresses, and we want to know to which Yep. To which addresses
1061
01:14:44.695 --> 01:14:49.595
these Bitcoin come to. So this is what I would expect, not only in Canada, but worldwide.
1062
01:14:50.215 --> 01:14:52.955
Especially when the when the gains are too too high
1063
01:14:53.255 --> 01:15:07.665
and, like, the climate change, fraud is coming, and then you have to pay a climate change solidarity tax on your Bitcoin and and about the time you huddled it. And then they look at these addresses, and they will go to the channel analysis
1064
01:15:08.045 --> 01:15:08.945
and just check,
1065
01:15:09.805 --> 01:15:10.305
okay.
1066
01:15:11.540 --> 01:15:14.920
This has hopped 1, 2, or 3 times. We
1067
01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:18.840
have we assume that you have x amount of Bitcoin.
1068
01:15:19.445 --> 01:15:20.565
Please, send,
1069
01:15:21.205 --> 01:15:22.885
10% of these to this,
1070
01:15:24.565 --> 01:15:25.385
tax authority
1071
01:15:25.685 --> 01:15:35.130
Bitcoin address. Thank you very much. This is what I expect to come. And then you can choose if you want to keep sitting in Germany where the German supreme court already has
1072
01:15:35.534 --> 01:15:36.034
basically,
1073
01:15:36.815 --> 01:15:37.315
waived
1074
01:15:38.574 --> 01:15:44.114
climate change lockdowns and insanity, and the European Union is setting up a European asset registry.
1075
01:15:44.970 --> 01:15:49.950
And if you wanna do that, okay, you can sit in Germany and then you pay 20% on your,
1076
01:15:51.370 --> 01:16:05.570
corona tax or climate change tax. Or you say, okay. I'm gonna pack up, and I'm going to El Salvador or Mexico or move to Paraguay and Panama or whatever. So this is this is the choice that's coming up for a lot of people over the next 5 years.
1077
01:16:07.630 --> 01:16:11.385
Or you're buying no you or you're buying okay with you at your local Bitcoin meetup?
1078
01:16:12.824 --> 01:16:14.585
Or you mine I mean, we've had
1079
01:16:15.385 --> 01:16:18.364
there's a lot of no k y there's a lot of discussions
1080
01:16:18.824 --> 01:16:19.965
on on dispatch.
1081
01:16:20.510 --> 01:16:25.489
Freaks who haven't listened to them in the past can go back. I mean, I'm not gonna list episode numbers because,
1082
01:16:26.030 --> 01:16:33.185
there's been you know, this is this is dispatch 56, and maybe we've talked about the trade offs of k y c and, like, 40 of them
1083
01:16:33.645 --> 01:16:34.680
45 of them.
1084
01:16:35.240 --> 01:16:41.180
So go listen to the archives. I mean, you can mine, you can you can earn Bitcoin, you can spend Bitcoin,
1085
01:16:42.040 --> 01:16:42.860
rather than
1086
01:16:43.435 --> 01:16:46.895
buying or selling Bitcoin. But let's keep talking about this,
1087
01:16:47.514 --> 01:16:51.054
this Swan integration because you guys have gotten a lot of pushback on it.
1088
01:16:52.300 --> 01:16:54.320
First of all, it is optional. Right?
1089
01:16:56.220 --> 01:16:57.920
I I assume it's a monetization
1090
01:16:58.460 --> 01:17:01.840
method as well. Right? Like, you get a kickback with the Swan integration?
1091
01:17:02.525 --> 01:17:03.645
Yes. We have, like,
1092
01:17:04.205 --> 01:17:06.465
Swan Bitcoin has a referral system.
1093
01:17:06.845 --> 01:17:11.185
And, if our use like, if it's a if a Spectre user comes
1094
01:17:11.510 --> 01:17:13.050
and signs up for the service
1095
01:17:13.590 --> 01:17:18.330
through the Spectre referral link, he can support the Spectre there as we
1096
01:17:18.870 --> 01:17:20.970
are getting a cut out of the fees there.
1097
01:17:21.355 --> 01:17:21.755
And,
1098
01:17:22.155 --> 01:17:26.095
this is how we how we are moving forward, we,
1099
01:17:27.195 --> 01:17:28.655
plan to support
1100
01:17:29.150 --> 01:17:33.490
better wallet development and a bigger developer team to keep the the free default
1101
01:17:34.270 --> 01:17:41.065
system really well, like, really well set up. So this is, also a monetization. Like like,
1102
01:17:41.365 --> 01:17:46.585
you need you need to make money. You have to pay your bills, and you have to pay your developers, and
1103
01:17:47.220 --> 01:17:49.720
people have to pay rent somehow.
1104
01:17:51.620 --> 01:17:52.120
Right.
1105
01:17:53.780 --> 01:17:54.840
So, I mean,
1106
01:17:56.455 --> 01:18:01.815
right right before you guys integrated Swan I by the way, Keith, in response to my,
1107
01:18:03.310 --> 01:18:05.010
to the dispatch we did,
1108
01:18:05.630 --> 01:18:06.930
where we were discussing,
1109
01:18:09.150 --> 01:18:12.545
we were discussing your recent integration. I think it was,
1110
01:18:13.805 --> 01:18:14.785
CD 53
1111
01:18:15.725 --> 01:18:16.225
with
1112
01:18:16.845 --> 01:18:18.225
Carmen and Tony.
1113
01:18:19.870 --> 01:18:30.315
You mentioned that you were adding some kind of, like, warning tooltip that it's a KYC service and it comes with, you know, privacy risks. Did that ever get added? That ever get merged?
1114
01:18:30.855 --> 01:18:31.835
It's been merged.
1115
01:18:32.215 --> 01:18:36.875
I don't think there's been a new release. So it would be something like a 1.8dot
1116
01:18:37.300 --> 01:18:38.600
2. I think 1.8.1
1117
01:18:39.060 --> 01:18:44.280
is the current release. So whatever the next either minor or major releases, that'll be included.
1118
01:18:45.364 --> 01:18:45.864
Awesome.
1119
01:18:47.525 --> 01:18:51.385
I love to see when open Bitcoin discussion results in
1120
01:18:53.070 --> 01:18:53.970
improved product,
1121
01:18:54.910 --> 01:18:59.150
improved projects. It's it's really good to see. I mean, like I said, I think the number one thing,
1122
01:19:00.225 --> 01:19:06.805
when it comes to the risk of KYC is that these trade offs are disclosed, that users are aware that they can make their own decision. I mean, Bitcoin,
1123
01:19:07.980 --> 01:19:14.160
and the open source movement in general to me is a freedom movement. It's a movement of personal responsibility. It's a movement where,
1124
01:19:14.805 --> 01:19:15.305
ultimately,
1125
01:19:15.925 --> 01:19:23.305
you're gonna have many options available to you, and users should make their own informed decision on how they want to proceed. But right before,
1126
01:19:23.990 --> 01:19:25.770
you guys integrated Swan,
1127
01:19:27.350 --> 01:19:29.290
there was the AOPP
1128
01:19:29.670 --> 01:19:31.370
debate on Bitcoin Twitter.
1129
01:19:31.935 --> 01:19:35.315
AOPP is the Address Ownership Proof Protocol.
1130
01:19:36.895 --> 01:19:38.035
It was designed,
1131
01:19:39.130 --> 01:19:41.469
based on Swiss compliance rules,
1132
01:19:41.929 --> 01:19:49.425
based on the travel rule, which FAFSA pushed the travel rule. FAFSA is an unelected bureaucratic organization globally,
1133
01:19:50.284 --> 01:19:54.360
that doesn't actually pass laws, but they have a bunch of member countries and they make,
1134
01:19:55.239 --> 01:19:56.860
these very strong worded,
1135
01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:02.695
suggestions like they did with the travel rule, and then they leave it up to individual countries to implement them.
1136
01:20:03.655 --> 01:20:06.635
Switzerland went above and beyond and said that any person,
1137
01:20:07.255 --> 01:20:08.795
using a regulated Swiss,
1138
01:20:09.494 --> 01:20:10.554
Bitcoin exchange
1139
01:20:11.280 --> 01:20:16.739
needs to sign their withdrawal addresses. Signing a withdrawal address is a native Bitcoin function.
1140
01:20:17.679 --> 01:20:23.675
It's a very cool function. It's a way of proving you have ownership of an address or you have control over an address,
1141
01:20:24.695 --> 01:20:25.835
in a verifiable
1142
01:20:26.135 --> 01:20:29.530
way that is very easy for anyone to verify around the world,
1143
01:20:30.230 --> 01:20:32.810
without exact without exposing your private keys.
1144
01:20:33.270 --> 01:20:34.090
This is what
1145
01:20:35.475 --> 01:20:37.155
many of us have been saying that,
1146
01:20:38.355 --> 01:20:39.815
Craig Wright should do,
1147
01:20:40.275 --> 01:20:44.215
to prove at least to give some benefit of the doubt that he's Satoshi's,
1148
01:20:44.690 --> 01:20:51.110
you know, signed some early keys that that people presume belong to Satoshi. He refuses to do it because he's a fraud,
1149
01:20:51.489 --> 01:20:51.989
but,
1150
01:20:53.085 --> 01:20:57.505
AOPP was this idea that let's make this signing process easier,
1151
01:20:58.285 --> 01:21:01.505
integrate it into wallets. So instead of going through,
1152
01:21:02.190 --> 01:21:04.290
a little bit more cumbersome of a process,
1153
01:21:04.750 --> 01:21:09.410
to sign an address because a lot of wallets already offer that functionality, including Bitcoin Core,
1154
01:21:11.955 --> 01:21:13.895
make it easier and make it standardized.
1155
01:21:14.915 --> 01:21:17.095
There's a lot of pushback against it,
1156
01:21:17.635 --> 01:21:19.335
most notably because
1157
01:21:21.210 --> 01:21:27.310
a lot of big corners, I think myself included, don't think that we should go above and beyond to comply with burdensome regulation.
1158
01:21:28.745 --> 01:21:30.125
It just kind of solidifies,
1159
01:21:31.145 --> 01:21:37.245
that regulation rather than putting pressure on the individual companies to basically then go put pressure on their governments
1160
01:21:37.550 --> 01:21:42.050
to say, you're completely destroying our business model. If you make them comfortable, then,
1161
01:21:43.550 --> 01:21:47.645
they will just proceed and the regulation will get even more burdensome over time.
1162
01:21:48.985 --> 01:21:53.485
Well, like, what's your viewpoint on AOPP? I know Spectre does not have it integrated.
1163
01:21:54.480 --> 01:21:57.460
Do you have plans to integrate it? How how do you feel about it?
1164
01:21:58.320 --> 01:22:02.900
Yeah. So we were not part of this whole drama there because we didn't implement AOPP,
1165
01:22:03.705 --> 01:22:05.165
but we were
1166
01:22:05.625 --> 01:22:06.605
approached by
1167
01:22:07.224 --> 01:22:07.724
Lucas
1168
01:22:08.105 --> 01:22:11.965
Betchart, who's from 21 Analytics, and he's the,
1169
01:22:12.410 --> 01:22:16.830
I think, the head of the or, like, he's associate very closely to the Swiss Bitcoin.
1170
01:22:17.850 --> 01:22:21.310
Yeah. Him and Shift crypto were, like, leading the AOPP charge, basically.
1171
01:22:22.345 --> 01:22:22.845
And,
1172
01:22:23.385 --> 01:22:25.565
they were both Swift companies,
1173
01:22:26.105 --> 01:22:28.265
and they approached us to to add this.
1174
01:22:28.905 --> 01:22:31.165
But I I looked at it and then,
1175
01:22:31.860 --> 01:22:33.000
yes, it's like
1176
01:22:33.699 --> 01:22:39.639
yeah. They they they're they're doing okay with the signing at that point, and I didn't like the whole smell about it. And
1177
01:22:40.034 --> 01:22:46.730
then also the user didn't demand it or that we didn't see a lot of push out of of Switzerland that all our users want to use it.
1178
01:22:47.690 --> 01:22:49.930
And I didn't like the dynamic about it that,
1179
01:22:50.890 --> 01:22:58.505
this travel rule is pushed on the exchanges, and then the user has to sign this. Like, the user should just give his Bitcoin address there
1180
01:23:00.165 --> 01:23:02.905
and click on withdraw. And and that's the
1181
01:23:03.205 --> 01:23:04.905
and that's the story, basically.
1182
01:23:05.280 --> 01:23:09.460
And there shouldn't be any signing circles and making things
1183
01:23:10.080 --> 01:23:12.335
more annoying from the UX side. And
1184
01:23:13.375 --> 01:23:18.114
so we have phone call or whatever. And but I sort of
1185
01:23:18.815 --> 01:23:25.139
we didn't move forward on that, to to put it politely, because we we didn't like it. And if you really start
1186
01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:27.599
thinking about this dynamic that,
1187
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:29.540
FATF is basically
1188
01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:30.980
picking up this
1189
01:23:31.655 --> 01:23:33.435
message signing thing here
1190
01:23:33.895 --> 01:23:34.395
and,
1191
01:23:35.655 --> 01:23:36.875
puts puts this
1192
01:23:37.175 --> 01:23:39.195
wraps this into his travel rule.
1193
01:23:39.540 --> 01:23:45.159
If you go down this road, then it becomes really slippery because, like, what happens if the regulators
1194
01:23:45.540 --> 01:23:51.625
then approach Sparrow or Spector and and pushes puts a lot of pressure on us that we have to
1195
01:23:54.164 --> 01:23:55.764
run these travel rule,
1196
01:23:56.324 --> 01:24:05.370
AOPP things by default. And, you know, default settings define long term user behavior. And all of a sudden, if I send Bitcoin to Keith, Keith has to
1197
01:24:06.445 --> 01:24:06.945
AOPP,
1198
01:24:07.405 --> 01:24:07.905
basically,
1199
01:24:08.525 --> 01:24:11.344
his his his address to me. And then
1200
01:24:11.965 --> 01:24:13.585
as a next level, if you
1201
01:24:13.910 --> 01:24:17.450
are when when we when when we go back to the Trezor and and ledger,
1202
01:24:18.310 --> 01:24:20.490
discussion, which I was bringing up before,
1203
01:24:21.190 --> 01:24:22.570
and everybody is KYC'd
1204
01:24:23.030 --> 01:24:23.530
ML,
1205
01:24:23.845 --> 01:24:28.405
then these infrastructures of Trezor and Ledger, they can feed this back into,
1206
01:24:29.045 --> 01:24:38.020
let's say, European asset registry or Fintrack system in the and and and we we we we we basically blow it all away. And,
1207
01:24:38.560 --> 01:24:43.695
like, will it become illegal to do a non AOPP compliant transaction? So
1208
01:24:45.035 --> 01:24:46.335
talking to, like, regulators
1209
01:24:46.715 --> 01:24:47.295
and Liechtenstein,
1210
01:24:49.810 --> 01:24:51.110
like, if you talk to these
1211
01:24:51.810 --> 01:24:55.510
KYC, AML sort of specialists and who talk to the regulators,
1212
01:24:55.890 --> 01:25:01.344
these people are, like, really, like, pretty crazy in my opinion because they really think that they can
1213
01:25:01.725 --> 01:25:05.025
press this kind of travel rule stuff into
1214
01:25:06.989 --> 01:25:08.929
into the the Bitcoin ecosystem.
1215
01:25:10.269 --> 01:25:14.050
And we have to take a stand there and say, like, okay.
1216
01:25:14.895 --> 01:25:29.530
And from right from the beginning, I think, is is is the way. Like, don't don't give them a little bit AOPP, and then it goes from Switzerland to Austria. And next, it's in Canada. And no. No. No. We have to be noncompliant here from from the get go.
1217
01:25:30.710 --> 01:25:31.530
So then
1218
01:25:32.695 --> 01:25:34.074
so so to
1219
01:25:34.375 --> 01:25:36.475
to to to go from there,
1220
01:25:38.055 --> 01:25:38.955
our conversation
1221
01:25:39.574 --> 01:25:40.000
in
1222
01:25:40.480 --> 01:25:41.780
CD 53 was
1223
01:25:44.400 --> 01:25:46.020
and and this is where
1224
01:25:46.480 --> 01:25:49.140
I mean, you dropped out a little bit, but this is why
1225
01:25:50.255 --> 01:25:52.195
even though I originally pushed
1226
01:25:53.054 --> 01:25:53.554
for,
1227
01:25:53.935 --> 01:25:54.995
you know, Swan
1228
01:25:55.375 --> 01:25:59.890
making a easy flow for people to have auto with withdraw to their own addresses,
1229
01:26:02.990 --> 01:26:04.130
amid the AOPP
1230
01:26:04.430 --> 01:26:04.930
stuff.
1231
01:26:05.525 --> 01:26:08.825
How do you see the difference between your SWAN integration
1232
01:26:09.365 --> 01:26:10.505
versus AOPP?
1233
01:26:21.605 --> 01:26:23.225
I would say, like, the
1234
01:26:23.845 --> 01:26:24.905
the the AOPP
1235
01:26:26.165 --> 01:26:26.665
puts
1236
01:26:28.219 --> 01:26:30.560
a technology into your wallet
1237
01:26:31.420 --> 01:26:32.960
that makes it very convenient
1238
01:26:33.580 --> 01:26:39.025
to comply with the travel rule. And at the beginning, it's just withdrawing from the exchange,
1239
01:26:39.405 --> 01:26:42.065
and we don't have this with Swan. And
1240
01:26:44.530 --> 01:26:54.095
and it and it opens the door. If you have AOPP in there and other users have AOPP, you can sort of put it into the main
1241
01:26:55.115 --> 01:27:00.415
wallets out there. So and this is where things becomes really tricky in my opinion.
1242
01:27:01.250 --> 01:27:02.949
This is this is the key thing.
1243
01:27:03.329 --> 01:27:08.070
But, like so, I mean, this was the conversation that I had with Carmen and Tony
1244
01:27:08.685 --> 01:27:10.204
on 53 that,
1245
01:27:11.485 --> 01:27:12.784
that Keith basically
1246
01:27:13.165 --> 01:27:15.585
picked up on, and he listened to that conversation
1247
01:27:18.220 --> 01:27:20.060
to add, you know, that to the
1248
01:27:20.940 --> 01:27:24.160
an explanation of KYC trade offs to your integration.
1249
01:27:24.540 --> 01:27:29.215
But my thought process was and and to be perfectly clear, like, this was something, like, I was
1250
01:27:29.595 --> 01:27:32.335
you know, AOPP had just kind of happened.
1251
01:27:33.595 --> 01:27:36.015
Well, actually, AOPP was integrated by ShiftCrypto
1252
01:27:36.450 --> 01:27:37.350
in their BitBox,
1253
01:27:38.450 --> 01:27:39.910
last year at some point.
1254
01:27:40.290 --> 01:27:46.885
It just hit the news because Trezor was making a big deal about integrating it, then they rolled it back. But that's why,
1255
01:27:47.425 --> 01:27:52.725
the debate happened was Treasure released, like, a press release that said, we're super excited that we,
1256
01:27:53.480 --> 01:27:54.860
cucked over to regulators.
1257
01:27:56.599 --> 01:28:04.765
But, like, that conversation had just basically blown up on Bitcoin Twitter. Company, projects were pulling out of it. Companies were pulling out of it.
1258
01:28:05.465 --> 01:28:07.725
And then we had our conversation on dispatch.
1259
01:28:08.185 --> 01:28:10.285
And if you think about it, like so
1260
01:28:10.690 --> 01:28:16.950
first of all, AOPP is a flawed regulation to begin with, but I don't think that is even that relevant. But the reason it's flawed is because,
1261
01:28:18.554 --> 01:28:24.574
I when I withdraw, I can put in someone else's Bitcoin address. With AOPP, I can still do that. I can just have
1262
01:28:24.875 --> 01:28:33.769
Keith do the AOPP procedure for me, and then and then it goes to Keith. So it really doesn't solve anything. And, obviously, after you receive,
1263
01:28:34.389 --> 01:28:39.295
you can send it wherever you want to send. So it's it's a the purpose of that regulation,
1264
01:28:40.075 --> 01:28:44.335
it doesn't accomplish the purpose, which is this idea of proving ownership of the address.
1265
01:28:45.190 --> 01:28:50.330
But that doesn't really matter because regulators will continue to push burdensome regulation that doesn't actually
1266
01:28:50.949 --> 01:28:54.330
improve anything anyway. So I think that is is a kind of irrelevant
1267
01:28:55.335 --> 01:28:57.435
distinction. But, ultimately, the idea is
1268
01:28:57.895 --> 01:29:00.155
try and reduce the plausible deniability
1269
01:29:02.090 --> 01:29:04.830
of when you withdraw, whether or not you're paying someone
1270
01:29:05.690 --> 01:29:08.830
or if you're sending to your own storage,
1271
01:29:09.865 --> 01:29:15.645
because tracking Bitcoin is is a probability game. The whole the whole way these surveillance mercenaries,
1272
01:29:17.120 --> 01:29:19.860
these so called chain analysis companies, these
1273
01:29:20.240 --> 01:29:22.180
these chain surveillance firms,
1274
01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:27.505
operate is they're basically doing probability analysis on every Bitcoin transaction,
1275
01:29:28.205 --> 01:29:32.145
trying to decide if ownership has changed. Right? Because me, I could send
1276
01:29:32.605 --> 01:29:44.110
to myself to a new address over and over again, and they're basically determining, am I sending it to myself, or am I sending it to Keith? Am I buying something with it? Am I sending it to an exchange? They're trying to do the probability
1277
01:29:44.665 --> 01:29:48.205
of when that Bitcoin changes hands. That's the key to their whole,
1278
01:29:48.905 --> 01:29:56.990
model. And the and the the reverse there is the key to breaking their model is to make those probabilities so low that they really have no
1279
01:29:57.450 --> 01:30:04.015
they have no idea of of whether or not Bitcoin is changing hands. So if you if you operate under that,
1280
01:30:05.035 --> 01:30:05.535
framework,
1281
01:30:05.915 --> 01:30:08.335
the framework of reducing plausible deniability
1282
01:30:09.699 --> 01:30:10.679
in this integration
1283
01:30:12.260 --> 01:30:24.045
or even without this integration, just the way Swan works in general with the auto withdraw, if it's a reused address or if it's an ex pub, the plausible deniability is removed. Right? You can basically assume
1284
01:30:24.824 --> 01:30:26.605
that if someone is using
1285
01:30:27.390 --> 01:30:29.650
the auto withdrawal to a fresh address,
1286
01:30:31.550 --> 01:30:42.905
and I imagine some kind of data is exchanged because you're getting a kickback that that they're using Spectre, so so then you really know it's sending 10 new addresses from Spectre every time you load.
1287
01:30:43.380 --> 01:30:47.640
I mean, it is almost more effective than AOPP in proving
1288
01:30:49.460 --> 01:30:58.255
that, you know, that that it that it wasn't a payment to someone else, that it was that it is actually you taking taking control of over that Bitcoin. Right?
1289
01:30:59.180 --> 01:31:00.480
I I don't know. I
1290
01:31:00.780 --> 01:31:01.920
I I struggle to
1291
01:31:02.380 --> 01:31:04.320
to see that perspective because,
1292
01:31:04.700 --> 01:31:07.245
I mean, you're you're talking about the core
1293
01:31:07.705 --> 01:31:08.845
offering of Swan
1294
01:31:09.465 --> 01:31:13.885
is auto withdrawal. Right? I mean, auto auto buy with auto withdrawal.
1295
01:31:14.670 --> 01:31:16.050
And so Right.
1296
01:31:16.590 --> 01:31:17.090
Like,
1297
01:31:17.710 --> 01:31:21.010
the the issue is at the Swan level.
1298
01:31:21.389 --> 01:31:22.929
Correct. If the concern is
1299
01:31:23.325 --> 01:31:25.825
that it's it's a withdrawal versus a spend,
1300
01:31:26.445 --> 01:31:33.720
that's a problem inherent in the SWAN model. And The auto withdrawal model. It's the auto withdrawal model that it's a problem
1301
01:31:34.100 --> 01:31:44.045
with. Right. Right. And and you can you can have your concerns with that, but, of course, balanced against, you know, self custody. Right? And Right. You're gonna you you gotta do something from your on ramps.
1302
01:31:45.784 --> 01:31:47.005
But from my perspective,
1303
01:31:48.270 --> 01:31:50.290
so like I said, for existing users,
1304
01:31:51.230 --> 01:31:52.210
Swan is getting
1305
01:31:52.510 --> 01:31:55.390
less information. So for existing users, there's
1306
01:31:56.205 --> 01:31:58.945
well, I guess, Swan would know that you're you're
1307
01:31:59.245 --> 01:32:05.060
communicating through Spectre because the requests are coming through the API instead of the their web front end.
1308
01:32:06.580 --> 01:32:13.720
But, yeah, from what you what you do with it from there is up to you. And and, you know, you had said the ideal is get your auto withdrawal and then coinjoin it.
1309
01:32:14.415 --> 01:32:36.155
I think maybe the ideal would be to add some interim random hops in between. Right? Some mechanism that says, hey. I've got these different wallets of different types. You know, this one is nested Segwit. This one is a ancient legacy address, you know, and and over the course of the next month, do some random hops and then CoinJoin. Well, I mean, I I don't know. If regulated if regulated exchanges
1310
01:32:36.615 --> 01:32:38.155
are forced to,
1311
01:32:38.855 --> 01:32:41.070
freeze accounts based off of
1312
01:32:41.850 --> 01:32:43.310
future CoinJoin usage,
1313
01:32:43.929 --> 01:32:46.270
then, you know, we're in a whole different situation.
1314
01:32:46.810 --> 01:32:49.370
But as it stands right now, they're not. Right? So
1315
01:32:50.315 --> 01:32:54.175
Yeah. Yeah. You shouldn't even have to do that aspect to it.
1316
01:32:54.635 --> 01:32:56.074
Yeah. But so I don't I don't
1317
01:32:57.034 --> 01:32:59.580
I I view that line of criticism
1318
01:33:00.360 --> 01:33:02.060
as a conversation about
1319
01:33:03.000 --> 01:33:03.500
Swan's
1320
01:33:04.040 --> 01:33:05.500
auto withdrawal model,
1321
01:33:06.600 --> 01:33:07.100
but
1322
01:33:07.405 --> 01:33:14.785
I don't know what you do. Like, you know, it let's say it it's a conversation to have, but, like, you need on ramps and you need self custody.
1323
01:33:15.460 --> 01:33:19.400
So, you know, at that point, like, I I don't know. I
1324
01:33:19.780 --> 01:33:30.025
I I just want to send less information to Swan. I wanna make it easier for people to take self custody in an automated way that doesn't do dumb things like
1325
01:33:30.645 --> 01:33:34.230
deposit to the same address all the time or sending an entire XPUB.
1326
01:33:35.910 --> 01:33:42.490
And if if the conclusion is nobody should use Swan because of its auto withdrawal model,
1327
01:33:43.255 --> 01:33:44.795
I just think that's a separate conversation.
1328
01:33:47.415 --> 01:33:47.915
Right.
1329
01:33:49.735 --> 01:33:51.435
Yeah. I mean, like, first of all,
1330
01:33:54.240 --> 01:33:56.100
I've been publicly discussing Bitcoin
1331
01:33:58.080 --> 01:33:59.220
under this identity,
1332
01:34:01.395 --> 01:34:06.535
for probably 4 years now, no longer than that. And I'm the first one to admit
1333
01:34:08.520 --> 01:34:15.580
that my perspectives change and my views change and my opinions change, and I'm proud of that. Like, I
1334
01:34:16.175 --> 01:34:22.435
evolve, adapt, and learn, and you can never stop learning. Like, be humble enough to know that you don't know everything, and you just need to keep,
1335
01:34:23.535 --> 01:34:24.995
going down the rabbit hole.
1336
01:34:25.550 --> 01:34:26.930
And sometimes on dispatch,
1337
01:34:27.310 --> 01:34:31.810
one of the reasons I love dispatch is it's a free flowing conversation. So sometimes I come to realizations
1338
01:34:32.510 --> 01:34:33.650
about my own thinking,
1339
01:34:34.895 --> 01:34:35.395
that
1340
01:34:36.175 --> 01:34:38.035
I hadn't considered in the past.
1341
01:34:38.735 --> 01:34:39.235
And
1342
01:34:39.695 --> 01:34:43.715
this is why this this SWAN conversation is very interesting. Well, first of all,
1343
01:34:45.200 --> 01:34:53.235
I think it's pretty public that I am an adviser for SWAN, but I should probably say that, and I haven't said it yet in this conversation. So there you go.
1344
01:34:55.475 --> 01:34:59.094
Very, very small equity stake I got as a result of that.
1345
01:35:01.480 --> 01:35:03.420
Point 1% for full disclosure.
1346
01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:11.815
So, like, I happily will tell them to go fuck themselves on air regardless of my equity stake just for the record.
1347
01:35:13.155 --> 01:35:13.655
So
1348
01:35:14.115 --> 01:35:21.050
to me, the Swan flow was always the ideal KYC flow. Flow. If you were gonna do KYC first of all, Swan has been pretty good about,
1349
01:35:21.670 --> 01:35:27.324
disclosing trade offs of KYC, which once again, I think is the most important thing. They've had me on their podcast.
1350
01:35:27.864 --> 01:35:30.925
Me and Gigi wrote up a whole piece on privacy best practices.
1351
01:35:32.025 --> 01:35:38.900
It's it's probably the only KYC service that actively has education out there for their users on the dangers of KYC.
1352
01:35:40.160 --> 01:35:41.380
And the auto withdraw,
1353
01:35:41.825 --> 01:35:42.565
I thought
1354
01:35:43.745 --> 01:35:46.085
was, you know, very positive for users.
1355
01:35:47.105 --> 01:35:52.320
I still think it's very positive users because the custodial risk is a real thing. Like, I have friends
1356
01:35:52.860 --> 01:35:54.800
who, you know, they use Coinbase,
1357
01:35:55.900 --> 01:36:02.805
you know, college friends and stuff. They use Coinbase. They listen to Rabbit Hole recap. They've listened to me every single time I get drunk scream at them,
1358
01:36:03.265 --> 01:36:11.860
for using custodial service. And then you just find out over a random conversation that they have, like, the majority of their Bitcoin is still on Coinbase because they,
1359
01:36:12.245 --> 01:36:14.905
you know, they just kinda forget about it. The price increases.
1360
01:36:15.205 --> 01:36:20.745
You know? On Cash App, it's even worse. With Cash App, you you have you have these withdrawal limits
1361
01:36:21.550 --> 01:36:27.090
that are very, very low. So as the price increases, it's harder and harder to get your Bitcoin off of Cash App.
1362
01:36:28.215 --> 01:36:33.435
So they get, like, stuck in this custodial relationship out of a mix of laziness and a mix of
1363
01:36:33.974 --> 01:36:34.474
oversight
1364
01:36:34.775 --> 01:36:38.610
and just a Bitcoin price pumping and anxiety about
1365
01:36:39.070 --> 01:36:39.570
storage.
1366
01:36:41.310 --> 01:36:46.055
So the auto withdraw idea, making it as simple as possible to reduce custodial risk made a lot of sense
1367
01:36:46.615 --> 01:36:51.735
to me. I think it's interesting that Swan has such a good reputation in the space
1368
01:36:53.175 --> 01:36:55.755
has a has a pretty good reputation in the space,
1369
01:36:56.120 --> 01:36:59.100
at least as far as, you know, KYC onramps go.
1370
01:37:00.040 --> 01:37:03.900
But AOPP got blown like, don't you think that's interesting that, like, AOPP
1371
01:37:04.280 --> 01:37:07.565
got blown the fuck up? But really in practice,
1372
01:37:08.344 --> 01:37:12.284
you know, a service offering auto withdrawals actually has way better probability
1373
01:37:12.985 --> 01:37:14.844
that it's going to your own
1374
01:37:15.650 --> 01:37:16.150
address.
1375
01:37:17.489 --> 01:37:18.390
Like, it's interesting.
1376
01:37:20.770 --> 01:37:22.790
I I don't know. I I feel like they're orthogonal.
1377
01:37:23.730 --> 01:37:24.710
You know, you could
1378
01:37:25.125 --> 01:37:27.865
you could AOPP an auto withdrawal
1379
01:37:28.725 --> 01:37:29.785
on ramp service.
1380
01:37:31.205 --> 01:37:32.505
It's just one is saying
1381
01:37:32.910 --> 01:37:35.170
there are these quasi governmental agencies
1382
01:37:35.470 --> 01:37:39.250
forcing you to attest to to something That's the key difference. Yeah.
1383
01:37:40.645 --> 01:37:45.225
Yeah. Because you're not complying. It's not a compliance thing. Right? It's a voluntary thing.
1384
01:37:46.005 --> 01:37:46.505
Yes.
1385
01:37:46.965 --> 01:37:47.465
Yes.
1386
01:37:48.050 --> 01:37:53.750
But you do agree with me that auto withdrawal proves you own the address more than AOPP does. Right?
1387
01:37:57.405 --> 01:37:59.824
Really. You're not gonna give that to me, Keith?
1388
01:38:00.764 --> 01:38:10.630
What what am I missing in that thought process? Because like I said, with AOPP, you can you can just you can just sign for me, and I can send it directly to you. But with auto withdraw
1389
01:38:12.185 --> 01:38:16.685
Yeah. I mean, I could it's clearly me unless I'm, like, switching out to your XPUB,
1390
01:38:17.145 --> 01:38:19.245
and I'm just buying the next week.
1391
01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:26.740
I mean, every week, I could manually upload a different auto withdrawal address to Swan, and it'll be like, yo, I'll pay you in a week.
1392
01:38:27.375 --> 01:38:32.835
But that's not the case with the Spectre integration. With the Spectre integration You're right. Right. That's true. Would see that. Right?
1393
01:38:33.295 --> 01:38:36.994
I I mean, even with the Spectre integration, you could create a watch only wallet.
1394
01:38:37.360 --> 01:38:40.020
I mean, it would be dumb, but you could give me your XPUB.
1395
01:38:40.320 --> 01:38:42.820
Right? I create a watch only wallet for your XPUB.
1396
01:38:43.280 --> 01:38:48.545
I connect my Swan auto withdrawal to that, and I'm paying you through Swan
1397
01:38:48.925 --> 01:38:49.665
every week.
1398
01:38:50.765 --> 01:38:51.265
Right.
1399
01:38:51.885 --> 01:38:56.065
But yeah. So I it's matter. Right? It's a probability game. Defaults matter and
1400
01:38:57.750 --> 01:38:58.489
I don't know.
1401
01:38:58.790 --> 01:38:59.770
There's something there.
1402
01:39:00.390 --> 01:39:01.690
It might be easier
1403
01:39:02.150 --> 01:39:02.650
to
1404
01:39:03.190 --> 01:39:03.670
fake
1405
01:39:04.185 --> 01:39:05.165
redirect the AOPP,
1406
01:39:08.025 --> 01:39:08.525
but
1407
01:39:09.304 --> 01:39:09.804
I
1408
01:39:10.105 --> 01:39:11.165
it it's like,
1409
01:39:12.270 --> 01:39:14.530
I don't know. The the the differences are just
1410
01:39:14.910 --> 01:39:18.530
I I don't know. It's like, you know, we're talking about the last, like, 0.1%
1411
01:39:19.070 --> 01:39:21.250
of something. I I don't know. It's not
1412
01:39:21.695 --> 01:39:26.115
leaping out as a huge issue or a huge, like, parallel to me.
1413
01:39:27.215 --> 01:39:28.835
Maritz, what are your thoughts here?
1414
01:39:29.610 --> 01:39:31.150
I think you're splitting hairs.
1415
01:39:34.570 --> 01:39:40.895
I think I just think it's interesting that Bitcoin Twitter, you know, like, they pick they just pick odd things to, like, draw the line on.
1416
01:39:41.994 --> 01:39:44.895
Yes. I mean, it's a it's a crazy
1417
01:39:45.500 --> 01:39:48.079
Bitcoin cyber hornets Twitter thing. And
1418
01:39:48.780 --> 01:39:52.159
you have to if if something like this blows up, you have to
1419
01:39:53.815 --> 01:40:02.795
remain cool and and and look what's actually being discussed and wait a couple of days or before something gets completely blown out of proportion.
1420
01:40:03.389 --> 01:40:11.250
But it's I think it's an important immune system we have for for Bitcoin that it's reminding people who are
1421
01:40:12.045 --> 01:40:13.744
working on on their projects,
1422
01:40:14.045 --> 01:40:17.184
if it's Swan, if it's Spector, if it's Sparrow, anybody else,
1423
01:40:18.125 --> 01:40:20.350
to to say, like, oh, AOPP
1424
01:40:20.730 --> 01:40:27.870
is is is is not really good or KYC is not the real way and and beat the drum on that no KYC thing
1425
01:40:28.225 --> 01:40:31.125
and, remind people that they should probably
1426
01:40:31.665 --> 01:40:33.284
do some home mining or
1427
01:40:33.744 --> 01:40:35.824
buy no KYC at,
1428
01:40:36.560 --> 01:40:40.260
at from friends or from from the local Bitcoin meetup or whatever
1429
01:40:40.640 --> 01:40:43.220
and and and go go that way because,
1430
01:40:43.920 --> 01:40:45.220
we don't know how
1431
01:40:45.885 --> 01:40:52.545
we don't know as we move forward into this information age and the Bitcoinization we see, we don't know how crazy
1432
01:40:53.050 --> 01:41:07.054
things will become. I mean, the whole Canada thing is going to be really interesting. Also very interesting in Austria is they introduced the capital gains tax on that, and they're putting actually pressure on the exchanges, especially the local, exchange
1433
01:41:07.515 --> 01:41:08.094
with Panda
1434
01:41:08.475 --> 01:41:09.695
to actually report,
1435
01:41:10.620 --> 01:41:19.120
the the and report and collect the taxes and and pay that directly to the to the tax authorities there. So things are becoming
1436
01:41:19.574 --> 01:41:21.195
really, really interesting. And
1437
01:41:21.975 --> 01:41:26.554
I could imagine that, like especially at this conversation with this KYC
1438
01:41:26.935 --> 01:41:29.840
adviser there and and then, like, AML guy,
1439
01:41:30.460 --> 01:41:31.280
in in Switzerland.
1440
01:41:31.820 --> 01:41:37.280
It was interesting that they think, really, that if you, in the future, show up and want to
1441
01:41:37.804 --> 01:41:43.264
spend Bitcoin in, I don't know, Switzerland and wanna buy a car for â¬20,000
1442
01:41:43.804 --> 01:41:45.025
or Swiss francs,
1443
01:41:45.370 --> 01:41:47.230
and you can prove that
1444
01:41:47.610 --> 01:41:55.724
via travel rule who were the prior owners of these bitcoins and at which exchange they were bought, you cannot basically use these Bitcoin.
1445
01:41:56.505 --> 01:41:57.965
So there will be, like,
1446
01:41:58.744 --> 01:41:59.405
a KYC,
1447
01:42:01.670 --> 01:42:06.090
Bitcoin world and AML Bitcoin world, and there will be, like, this massive
1448
01:42:07.830 --> 01:42:10.090
dark pool of Bitcoin which will
1449
01:42:10.534 --> 01:42:11.034
continuously
1450
01:42:11.974 --> 01:42:13.275
keep growing. So,
1451
01:42:14.614 --> 01:42:19.195
I I don't know how you see this, but you see something like this coming in in US too?
1452
01:42:19.650 --> 01:42:22.070
Yeah. I mean, I tend to agree with pretty much
1453
01:42:22.690 --> 01:42:24.390
your prognosis there.
1454
01:42:25.570 --> 01:42:26.550
I I think,
1455
01:42:28.575 --> 01:42:36.275
you know, there's a lot of Bitcoin proponents, especially recent proponents, I would say, like the sailor school of thought, if you wanna give them a name,
1456
01:42:36.920 --> 01:42:39.500
that think of Bitcoin as purely an investment,
1457
01:42:41.480 --> 01:42:41.980
asset,
1458
01:42:42.680 --> 01:42:45.340
and are completely fine with using regulated custodians
1459
01:42:45.765 --> 01:42:48.265
and think that additional burdensome regulation,
1460
01:42:49.445 --> 01:42:52.980
can provide, so called regulatory clarity. So I think,
1461
01:42:54.340 --> 01:42:56.840
a lot of people in that camp won't be against,
1462
01:42:57.380 --> 01:43:02.360
all of this regulation that is almost definitely coming down the pipeline for,
1463
01:43:02.935 --> 01:43:03.435
companies,
1464
01:43:04.775 --> 01:43:05.915
specifically custodial
1465
01:43:06.775 --> 01:43:13.300
companies. Hopefully, not companies that are running a node for their users, but you can see it easily going down that path as well.
1466
01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:22.804
And I actually think it's so perverse that, like, people talk about incentives. I mean, incentives are a key aspect to Bitcoin's,
1467
01:43:23.905 --> 01:43:26.965
looking at Bitcoin and and looking at the game theory of Bitcoin.
1468
01:43:27.820 --> 01:43:28.720
There's actually
1469
01:43:29.180 --> 01:43:31.120
some support there, I think, that,
1470
01:43:31.660 --> 01:43:35.200
you know, if if you have burdensome KYC regulation,
1471
01:43:36.795 --> 01:43:47.929
more identity reporting stuff, the price of Bitcoin actually short term could pump off of that half between the fact that people, you know, a lot of people will be cut out from even selling on these regulated exchanges,
1472
01:43:48.389 --> 01:43:51.655
but also because a lot of the people in the sailor school might think
1473
01:43:52.215 --> 01:43:52.655
that,
1474
01:43:53.094 --> 01:43:54.715
that regulatory clarity
1475
01:43:55.175 --> 01:43:59.750
means, you know, Bitcoin's more more likely to stay around and they pile in more.
1476
01:44:00.470 --> 01:44:05.130
And I think I agree with you that the result is gonna basically be a bifurcation of the market
1477
01:44:05.510 --> 01:44:06.410
where you have,
1478
01:44:06.870 --> 01:44:08.250
a proper free market.
1479
01:44:08.685 --> 01:44:10.145
Some people might call it,
1480
01:44:11.165 --> 01:44:16.065
a black market, but I think a free market, and then you have a controlled regulated market.
1481
01:44:16.560 --> 01:44:18.820
But, ultimately, I think long term,
1482
01:44:19.760 --> 01:44:23.540
that regulation becomes so burdensome and so much friction is there,
1483
01:44:25.434 --> 01:44:37.060
and so many people will get burned. You know? You lose a lot of the properties of Bitcoin. You lose the censorship resistance. You even lose the seizure resistance because, you know, you end up holding it with a custodial party. I could see,
1484
01:44:37.840 --> 01:44:46.795
withdrawals not being allowed or only being able to withdraw to whitelist at addresses and stuff. So you lose that seizure resistance even if technically you control the private key.
1485
01:44:47.495 --> 01:44:51.035
If all your holdings are completely known and they're completely tied to your
1486
01:44:51.760 --> 01:44:54.980
to your to your identity and your personal identifiable information,
1487
01:44:55.440 --> 01:45:07.605
that you know, then they put a gun to your head. They threaten you with jail time. They threaten you with heavy fines, and then they make you they make you comply. They get a couple people to comply. Most people get scared into it and just comply. But I think, ultimately, long term,
1488
01:45:08.385 --> 01:45:10.085
there'll be so much friction there
1489
01:45:11.650 --> 01:45:18.755
that that the the free market Bitcoin will win. Like, they're it'll just be such a better experience. You'll have
1490
01:45:19.315 --> 01:45:25.175
all the all the the features and the benefits that Bitcoin provides people in terms of censorship resistance,
1491
01:45:25.635 --> 01:45:26.695
seizure resistance,
1492
01:45:27.155 --> 01:45:28.215
inflation resistance.
1493
01:45:28.940 --> 01:45:32.640
Like, you get all those benefits in the proper free market Bitcoin.
1494
01:45:33.180 --> 01:45:34.160
You get a
1495
01:45:34.700 --> 01:45:35.520
a shitty
1496
01:45:35.980 --> 01:45:37.760
repackaged version of them
1497
01:45:38.185 --> 01:45:41.485
in, you know, the regulated compliant cutbuck Bitcoin.
1498
01:45:42.505 --> 01:45:47.244
So I think long term, the future is bright. The question is, how many Bitcoiners get burned
1499
01:45:47.960 --> 01:45:49.739
in that dark period in between?
1500
01:45:50.120 --> 01:45:53.500
Because that dark period can get it could get really fucking bad,
1501
01:45:54.040 --> 01:46:00.125
and that's what that's what worries me. And and a perfect example is is this Canadian shit that's going on right now
1502
01:46:00.505 --> 01:46:01.245
is that,
1503
01:46:02.210 --> 01:46:05.630
you know, Trudeau's government has educated people on the risks
1504
01:46:06.090 --> 01:46:06.910
of KYC
1505
01:46:07.770 --> 01:46:13.335
more than any education any of us can do. And why is that? It's because when people's livelihoods are threatened,
1506
01:46:13.715 --> 01:46:15.335
it is the ultimate motivation.
1507
01:46:16.114 --> 01:46:19.175
But the problem is is that when that point happens,
1508
01:46:19.630 --> 01:46:22.690
a lot of times it's already too late. Like, we talked about earlier,
1509
01:46:23.230 --> 01:46:31.835
like, those people are already burned now. We we talked about earlier, you know, it takes time to get comfortable with using Sovereign Bitcoin. It takes time to get comfortable with multisig.
1510
01:46:32.215 --> 01:46:36.635
It takes time to learn how to use privacy best practices, especially with something like CoinJoin
1511
01:46:36.970 --> 01:46:41.390
where you have timing analysis and stuff. You need to move slow. You're forced to move slow.
1512
01:46:42.970 --> 01:46:49.074
So so the question becomes how many people get burned in that immediate process? And I think that's why as an industry,
1513
01:46:49.534 --> 01:46:51.155
as a community, we should
1514
01:46:51.614 --> 01:46:54.034
be trying to build these tools, make them better,
1515
01:46:54.580 --> 01:47:00.199
improve the education, improve the discourse so less people get burned so that dark period isn't as bad.
1516
01:47:00.820 --> 01:47:01.320
Mhmm.
1517
01:47:01.835 --> 01:47:09.615
Yeah. I was thinking today about, like, these like, imagine you're a trucker with a family and now they block your bank account and all this stuff.
1518
01:47:10.090 --> 01:47:12.190
And, I was still thinking, Eggman,
1519
01:47:12.730 --> 01:47:13.949
like, these kind of truckers,
1520
01:47:14.330 --> 01:47:16.270
like, I wish they had, like,
1521
01:47:17.095 --> 01:47:25.095
they had a moon wallet on their phone and, like, a little stack there just for this period when when they get locked out of the bank account. And I really
1522
01:47:26.170 --> 01:47:36.135
I mean, it's gives you a bad feeling in the stomach just thinking about this. Like like, there's so many people who get affected by this, and they haven't even understood or heard about Bitcoin and
1523
01:47:36.435 --> 01:47:38.855
haven't figured out all the whole shitcoin stuff. So
1524
01:47:40.675 --> 01:47:41.655
I think, like,
1525
01:47:42.275 --> 01:47:45.650
what we need to do is, like, push forward on the Bitcoin education
1526
01:47:46.670 --> 01:47:48.690
and push as hard as we can
1527
01:47:49.070 --> 01:47:50.610
forward on the fast
1528
01:47:51.230 --> 01:47:51.730
adoption
1529
01:47:52.030 --> 01:47:53.250
of of self custody
1530
01:47:53.715 --> 01:47:59.315
of your keys, your coins, and do the best job we can by providing no KYC tools.
1531
01:48:00.035 --> 01:48:00.535
But
1532
01:48:00.930 --> 01:48:03.510
the priority for for for me personally,
1533
01:48:03.890 --> 01:48:08.630
coming also from my hardware wallet security side is, like, I want to see fast adoption,
1534
01:48:09.195 --> 01:48:10.495
your keys, your coins,
1535
01:48:11.035 --> 01:48:11.695
by the
1536
01:48:12.875 --> 01:48:15.695
biggest amount of people possible. And if I look around,
1537
01:48:16.530 --> 01:48:34.310
we have so many people coming into the space over the last 2, 3 years. And, like like, friends of yours, and they're still hanging out on fucking Coinbase. Like, what what the heck is going on? Like, is this it's it's it's it's amazing. And I I have the same experiences. I roll my eyes sometimes and think, like, guys, you
1538
01:48:34.610 --> 01:48:36.230
you you listening to all the,
1539
01:48:36.930 --> 01:48:58.390
plan b podcasts and and all the crazy numbers and all looking looking still at the fiat gains. And, like, it's it's ridiculous. It's Yeah. They like the engagement tweet that says that Bitcoin with dollars of fiat. It's They like the engagement tweet that Bitcoin can't be seized, and then meanwhile, their Bitcoin's sitting in Coinbase, and it can just be seized at will.
1540
01:48:58.925 --> 01:49:03.905
Yes. Yes. And this is this is the first people who will get sort of shot.
1541
01:49:04.364 --> 01:49:06.784
If you're sitting with your coins on a Coinbase
1542
01:49:07.320 --> 01:49:08.620
or on any exchange,
1543
01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:13.420
like, get this stuff off there. Like, if you already see it happening in Canada,
1544
01:49:13.880 --> 01:49:22.695
Canada, if they pull this off really now, it's gonna be such a massive shit show for so many people. Like, there's gonna be not it's gonna be
1545
01:49:23.290 --> 01:49:30.110
the biggest Bitcoin advertisement ever. It's gonna be the biggest Barbara Streisand effect on Bitcoin ever. It's gonna be huge.
1546
01:49:30.535 --> 01:49:32.715
Is the biggest advertisement says WikiLeaks?
1547
01:49:33.895 --> 01:49:35.035
Yes. Yes.
1548
01:49:35.495 --> 01:49:35.995
Easily.
1549
01:49:36.695 --> 01:49:37.435
Or like,
1550
01:49:38.295 --> 01:49:40.970
the dark dark market market was called Silk Road.
1551
01:49:41.750 --> 01:49:47.130
So yes. I mean and do you just to to to to talk about numbers here. Like, these are old numbers.
1552
01:49:48.915 --> 01:49:56.055
I don't think there are more like 4 or 5,000,000 people using actually hardware wallets. And I don't think they are, like, more than probably
1553
01:49:56.435 --> 01:49:58.780
20,000 people or whatever using
1554
01:49:59.639 --> 01:50:02.059
a a a a Vazavi, a
1555
01:50:03.320 --> 01:50:04.139
a mood wallet,
1556
01:50:04.440 --> 01:50:06.619
a sparrow, or specter. Like, probably
1557
01:50:06.929 --> 01:50:12.835
maybe maybe 40 or whatever. So they the the people holding their real keys on their Bitcoin only is tiny.
1558
01:50:13.295 --> 01:50:16.355
And the the the largest by 4, 5,000,000 people,
1559
01:50:16.820 --> 01:50:20.040
having a ledger, a Trezor, a hardware wallet. And then if you
1560
01:50:20.660 --> 01:50:25.880
look at the the amount of users on these crypto shitcoin exchanges
1561
01:50:26.555 --> 01:50:31.215
who are just trading Shiba coin against Yo Yo coin or whatever.
1562
01:50:31.515 --> 01:50:32.555
It's it's
1563
01:50:33.660 --> 01:50:36.800
this is the this is the real problem we have. We have, like,
1564
01:50:37.100 --> 01:50:41.840
a a 100000000 people. We have to move over to your keys, your coins.
1565
01:50:42.385 --> 01:50:44.165
Don't listen to the shitcoin noise.
1566
01:50:44.545 --> 01:50:50.165
And, maybe these people are already lost. I don't know. But sorry. My rant here. But this is the This is the 100,000,000
1567
01:50:50.690 --> 01:50:51.750
you think there's a 100,000,000
1568
01:50:52.210 --> 01:50:52.710
people
1569
01:50:53.810 --> 01:50:56.630
that own Bitcoin, whether self custody or custodial?
1570
01:50:57.090 --> 01:50:58.949
That would be your number? Even higher.
1571
01:50:59.655 --> 01:51:10.370
I think the last number like, the old number the old number from the Cambridge research report on this cross border asset user is was, like, 2 years old is the number at least, is a 130,000,000
1572
01:51:10.750 --> 01:51:12.850
people have KYC accounts
1573
01:51:13.230 --> 01:51:13.730
on,
1574
01:51:14.910 --> 01:51:16.050
on on exchanges.
1575
01:51:16.485 --> 01:51:20.585
And I think the number now is is probably 200 or 250,000,000.
1576
01:51:21.205 --> 01:51:22.105
And we still
1577
01:51:23.420 --> 01:51:31.040
fuck around here with 5,000,000 people with hardware wallets and users. So is that what you think? What do you think the number is? So, like, 200 to 250,000,000
1578
01:51:32.395 --> 01:51:34.494
total, what do you think the number is
1579
01:51:34.795 --> 01:51:37.695
for, like, people that have 90% of their Bitcoin,
1580
01:51:38.474 --> 01:51:40.735
self custody in private Bitcoin wallets?
1581
01:51:42.739 --> 01:51:47.320
The number who have have most of You know, like on hardware wallets or stuff. Yeah.
1582
01:51:47.860 --> 01:51:49.000
At max, 10,000,000.
1583
01:51:49.395 --> 01:51:51.495
I would rather say 5.
1584
01:51:52.435 --> 01:51:56.375
Like, the the numbers I I was at my analysis with with,
1585
01:51:57.400 --> 01:52:02.620
2 years ago when I was running some numbers for our business model and doing some research, I was like
1586
01:52:03.080 --> 01:52:05.340
and talking to Ledger, talking to a treasurer,
1587
01:52:06.285 --> 01:52:07.665
we had a number, I think,
1588
01:52:08.125 --> 01:52:19.060
2,000,000, 3,000,000 hardware wallet users. And through the last 2 years with education, a lot of people provide and stuff. And the sales numbers, I would say, at max, 5,000,000 people.
1589
01:52:19.440 --> 01:52:25.219
5,000,000 people now have hardware wallets. We know there's at least 1,000,000 doxxed Ledger users.
1590
01:52:27.745 --> 01:52:28.405
Yes. Imagine
1591
01:52:28.865 --> 01:52:32.165
this fucking problem. Like, you can go on the darknet,
1592
01:52:32.465 --> 01:52:43.110
download this list, and I know people who have done it. And then you can go to your city, and you're in Berlin or whatever. And then you say, oh, there's Friedrich Strasse, whatever, a 100. And there's
1593
01:52:43.695 --> 01:52:54.349
Toby Mueller lives there, and he has a ledger. Like, I wonder why the guy has a ledger. You buy a ledger hardware wallet or something like this if you have to protect a significant amount of Bitcoin or crypto.
1594
01:52:54.969 --> 01:53:02.989
So we see, like, people buy this stuff from, like they start buying a hardware wallet, like, over whenever over 5 or 10000 in in crypto.
1595
01:53:04.075 --> 01:53:08.655
And Ledger doesn't even let you buy with Bitcoin is my understanding. You have to buy with credit card,
1596
01:53:09.115 --> 01:53:09.775
which is
1597
01:53:12.190 --> 01:53:13.409
frankly unacceptable.
1598
01:53:15.630 --> 01:53:18.770
You should I mean, they're supposed to be a Bitcoin company.
1599
01:53:19.215 --> 01:53:22.275
You shouldn't have to dox yourself to your surveillance corporate
1600
01:53:22.575 --> 01:53:23.075
card,
1601
01:53:24.415 --> 01:53:44.305
just to buy a and that's why we build Spectre DIY. You just order this developer board, and you have a little scanner, and you put in the the tables and the plugs. And that's that's that's that's that's the cool shit about it. So let's talk about let's talk about the Spectre DIY because I've talked about the seed signer many times on this show.
1602
01:53:44.750 --> 01:53:46.849
Literally, the last episode was seed signer.
1603
01:53:47.790 --> 01:53:48.929
I love the project.
1604
01:53:49.949 --> 01:53:53.010
You guys are a little bit interesting here in that you have this software
1605
01:53:53.485 --> 01:53:56.304
open source software project, and you have this open source Bitcoin,
1606
01:53:56.844 --> 01:53:59.664
open source hardware project, Inspector Do It Yourself.
1607
01:54:00.445 --> 01:54:02.224
What's the current state of that project?
1608
01:54:03.470 --> 01:54:08.530
Why should people be interested in it? I think you said you have, like, a big revamp coming on it earlier in the show.
1609
01:54:09.230 --> 01:54:10.130
Yeah. So
1610
01:54:10.565 --> 01:54:19.260
the long story short is, like, our CTO, Stefan, is a is a total monster, and we have, like, a nice team supporting it. And he's he's
1611
01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:22.140
he's amazing. The guy is, like, is massive.
1612
01:54:22.840 --> 01:54:23.340
And,
1613
01:54:23.880 --> 01:54:31.105
so we started actually out building this hardware wallet, and this is actually how spec the desktop was was coming because we were looking for
1614
01:54:31.645 --> 01:54:32.145
a
1615
01:54:32.685 --> 01:54:34.304
a companion app for our
1616
01:54:34.670 --> 01:54:47.745
hardware wallet. And first, we started just with a developer board and a scanner to do QR code based and SD card based stuff. And it's a nice iPhone 4 screen on a developer board, and then we added a smart card reader
1617
01:54:48.125 --> 01:54:49.165
and and, and,
1618
01:54:50.125 --> 01:54:57.230
connector board to this. So and all packaged all this in something what we call Specter Shield, which is much more for enterprise use.
1619
01:54:57.610 --> 01:55:03.495
And, we really did our homework over the last years, not only building in liquid into that, but also,
1620
01:55:04.195 --> 01:55:05.955
working on a design that we,
1621
01:55:06.995 --> 01:55:11.520
we can we can ship out as a finished device. Looks a little bit like a old iPhone 4,
1622
01:55:12.620 --> 01:55:15.500
and has a has a nice metal casing and,
1623
01:55:16.220 --> 01:55:17.840
is is is in the works.
1624
01:55:18.925 --> 01:55:23.425
We are mostly focused here on on high net worth and enterprise usage
1625
01:55:24.045 --> 01:55:24.364
and,
1626
01:55:25.165 --> 01:55:26.465
not sure about our
1627
01:55:27.010 --> 01:55:29.670
retail strategy there, maybe in the future.
1628
01:55:30.289 --> 01:55:30.770
And,
1629
01:55:31.650 --> 01:55:36.150
so this is where we stand. We are currently testing production models and
1630
01:55:36.805 --> 01:55:37.545
hope that,
1631
01:55:38.085 --> 01:55:38.825
we can,
1632
01:55:39.205 --> 01:55:42.105
move to full production maybe later this year.
1633
01:55:42.565 --> 01:55:57.465
And, yes, it's it's it's very exciting to see this developing, and we didn't take any shortcuts on the on the firmware there or anything. We have we have done a solid job developing this thing for 3 years. And the good thing is with a new device,
1634
01:55:58.405 --> 01:56:04.510
you can you can still use your Spectre DIY, your old one, and you can use the new Spectre,
1635
01:56:05.130 --> 01:56:09.265
which is coming there. And it's the same fam firmware. So you have,
1636
01:56:09.865 --> 01:56:10.965
a full,
1637
01:56:11.345 --> 01:56:13.045
MIT license, and it's
1638
01:56:14.290 --> 01:56:16.070
fully free and open source software.
1639
01:56:16.690 --> 01:56:22.550
So, we're very excited about this this coming up there. So users can you can build it yourself
1640
01:56:22.885 --> 01:56:26.985
at a it's so it's a higher price point than the seed signer. You can build it yourself with,
1641
01:56:27.445 --> 01:56:28.825
with off the shelf hardware.
1642
01:56:29.205 --> 01:56:34.400
But it's got bigger screen, higher price point than seed signer, or you can buy the prebuilt device.
1643
01:56:35.260 --> 01:56:38.700
Yes. Correct? Yes. Exactly. So, like, the seat signer,
1644
01:56:39.340 --> 01:56:48.385
Keith, correct me if I'm wrong, is about $40, 40, $50 when you build it. Like 60 now. Inflation. Order in bulk, I got it down to $32.
1645
01:56:49.520 --> 01:56:50.020
Oh,
1646
01:56:50.640 --> 01:56:51.300
okay. Well,
1647
01:56:51.600 --> 01:56:53.040
probably you'll have a, like, a,
1648
01:56:53.600 --> 01:56:54.340
seat signer,
1649
01:56:54.800 --> 01:56:56.260
bathtub full of it already.
1650
01:56:58.175 --> 01:57:00.355
Hey. Don't don't get into my personal life.
1651
01:57:00.975 --> 01:57:05.315
These children haven't taken a bath in 2 weeks because it's filled with seat signers. Exactly.
1652
01:57:06.070 --> 01:57:12.889
Yeah. So the seat signer is great. And, we were really happy when when seat signer came in and did the first stuff, and then
1653
01:57:13.270 --> 01:57:15.095
a lot of other drag guys jumped on it.
1654
01:57:15.575 --> 01:57:20.395
And and they use the embed library, which is also the library that Stepan built.
1655
01:57:21.735 --> 01:57:23.035
He wrote and built
1656
01:57:23.679 --> 01:57:37.445
the on it. And seat signer first just did just the casing for us, for Flexman, and then but then developed a seat signer out of it. And we are coming in at a higher price point. I think the developer board is â¬60,
1657
01:57:38.145 --> 01:57:38.885
or $60.
1658
01:57:39.425 --> 01:58:02.690
And then the scanner is, like, 30 and then another 10 for the casing and the cables. So you you're talking about, like, like, a $100 there. And it's a really, really nice, design and and really great screen and great user experience. That's my primary wallet. And I think it's for me, of course, it's the best wallet in the market, but you can ask the likes of, I don't know, maybe Michael Flexman what he thinks about this,
1659
01:58:03.230 --> 01:58:03.890
this device.
1660
01:58:04.590 --> 01:58:06.610
And, we get some good feedback there.
1661
01:58:07.175 --> 01:58:13.835
So, but moving forward, like, we we we're really proud on on on what we what we did there. And,
1662
01:58:14.215 --> 01:58:18.040
yeah. So we got some nice Bitcoin only stuff coming up.
1663
01:58:18.579 --> 01:58:19.079
And,
1664
01:58:19.940 --> 01:58:23.639
yeah, it's great how to just to see how the whole ecosystem is growing
1665
01:58:24.085 --> 01:58:24.525
and,
1666
01:58:24.965 --> 01:58:26.185
without the
1667
01:58:26.565 --> 01:58:27.065
insane
1668
01:58:28.085 --> 01:58:30.105
without you you don't need the insane
1669
01:58:30.645 --> 01:58:35.610
funding that these shitcoins and shitcoin exchanges have. You can They have a lot of funding.
1670
01:58:35.990 --> 01:58:40.845
They have a crazy amount of funding. And it's it's like, this is something that's really puzzling to me.
1671
01:58:41.325 --> 01:58:49.985
Like, all these crazy shit coin projects, they have they they like, if you listen to the Solana stories and what's like, how huge this
1672
01:58:50.500 --> 01:58:54.679
Ethereum and Solana conferences are and what kind of money they throw around.
1673
01:58:54.980 --> 01:58:55.480
And
1674
01:58:55.860 --> 01:58:57.400
Bitcoin is still number 1.
1675
01:58:57.735 --> 01:59:03.595
It's, it's building great tools. It's it has the best and the most passionate people in the space,
1676
01:59:04.055 --> 01:59:11.570
and it has a clear mission. It's very clear about what it wants. Like, the Bitcoin community really knows very clearly what we're working on.
1677
01:59:11.945 --> 01:59:14.045
And, it's just amazing
1678
01:59:14.425 --> 01:59:14.925
that
1679
01:59:16.025 --> 01:59:20.525
nobody is even close to competing with Bitcoin. It's amazing, and I and I love it.
1680
01:59:22.250 --> 01:59:27.070
Yeah. I mean, the shit corners are out there, you know, buying buying sports arenas. So
1681
01:59:28.735 --> 01:59:29.235
crypto.com,
1682
01:59:29.614 --> 01:59:30.755
no one used crypto.com.
1683
01:59:31.055 --> 01:59:32.035
They paid a $100,000,000
1684
01:59:32.495 --> 01:59:35.155
for their f one sponsorship for a single year.
1685
01:59:37.510 --> 01:59:38.410
I'm pretty sure.
1686
01:59:38.790 --> 01:59:41.110
It's it's absolutely insane, the difference in funding.
1687
01:59:41.910 --> 01:59:43.850
So we're almost at the 2 hour mark.
1688
01:59:44.745 --> 01:59:46.344
But before we do wrap up,
1689
01:59:47.065 --> 01:59:50.285
what about what is your thoughts on Lightning Integration inspector?
1690
01:59:50.905 --> 01:59:59.130
What is the is there a road map there? Is is lightning never gonna be integrated? Will it be integrated in 2 weeks? What is what is your thought process?
1691
02:00:00.150 --> 02:00:00.650
We
1692
02:00:01.235 --> 02:00:03.335
are not actively working on lightning.
1693
02:00:03.715 --> 02:00:11.220
So we think the lightning space is well alive and kicking and and is doing great. We are coming more in from the
1694
02:00:11.600 --> 02:00:15.700
from the on chain custody side and have chosen to
1695
02:00:16.160 --> 02:00:16.660
to
1696
02:00:17.040 --> 02:00:18.260
work on on liquid.
1697
02:00:18.825 --> 02:00:20.185
And, we would
1698
02:00:20.985 --> 02:00:23.945
we are interested in lightning. We are very passionate about lightning.
1699
02:00:24.425 --> 02:00:27.640
Stephan can talk to you about it until your ears bleed.
1700
02:00:28.120 --> 02:00:30.300
And, especially, he loves to talk about,
1701
02:00:30.760 --> 02:00:32.380
Bitcoin lightning security
1702
02:00:32.760 --> 02:00:36.460
and lightning hardware secure lightning hardware back ends.
1703
02:00:36.760 --> 02:00:37.260
Because
1704
02:00:37.585 --> 02:00:42.804
as we see the the volume and the, the network grow and and enlightening,
1705
02:00:43.985 --> 02:00:50.700
there are more and more security questions coming up, especially, like, where do you put the private keys when you are
1706
02:00:51.080 --> 02:00:58.235
managing larger amounts of of Bitcoin on lightning? And usually, they you know better than I as I sit on the on the node. And,
1707
02:00:59.035 --> 02:01:03.890
this is this is on the servers, on hardened servers, and this is something
1708
02:01:04.350 --> 02:01:05.250
which is not
1709
02:01:05.630 --> 02:01:08.770
not very pleasant to think about. So I think in the future
1710
02:01:09.310 --> 02:01:10.990
in the near future, we will need,
1711
02:01:11.470 --> 02:01:21.635
secure back ends for lightning and, and specifically built for lightning also so that you really can can protect these, these keys in a in a in a in a good way.
1712
02:01:22.520 --> 02:01:25.260
100%. I mean, so that's interesting. No plans really.
1713
02:01:26.120 --> 02:01:30.700
We don't we we have some HSM plans where we think about,
1714
02:01:32.574 --> 02:01:33.235
the the the HSM,
1715
02:01:33.695 --> 02:01:34.755
which can support
1716
02:01:35.135 --> 02:01:37.395
Bitcoin, liquid, and also lightning.
1717
02:01:37.935 --> 02:01:41.219
And, we would love to build this. But as we just discussed,
1718
02:01:44.320 --> 02:01:49.300
funding is the question. Right. And, and that's that's where we go. Right.
1719
02:01:49.825 --> 02:01:53.844
And priorities. You cannot do everything at the same time. You have to prioritize
1720
02:01:54.145 --> 02:01:55.364
what you wanna do.
1721
02:01:55.745 --> 02:01:59.125
But, I think we really did our homework on the Spectre
1722
02:02:00.020 --> 02:02:05.560
hardware wallet, which is coming up, and, we would like to put more resources on the Spectre desktop.
1723
02:02:06.020 --> 02:02:11.465
I look forward to, playing with the new hardware wallet. I do have, the original Spectre DIY.
1724
02:02:12.165 --> 02:02:15.385
It's a sexy piece of hardware. It's, it was definitely,
1725
02:02:16.324 --> 02:02:18.585
definitely feels like it was way ahead of its time.
1726
02:02:19.030 --> 02:02:22.410
I do a 100% appreciate all the work you and your team do.
1727
02:02:22.870 --> 02:02:26.730
I mean, you mentioned we've mentioned already, like, the fact that these 247
1728
02:02:27.030 --> 02:02:27.770
note boxes
1729
02:02:28.175 --> 02:02:30.675
have, you know, your hot lightning keys on it.
1730
02:02:31.055 --> 02:02:33.635
But if you want a really unsettling thought,
1731
02:02:34.495 --> 02:02:37.470
there are a lot of lightning nodes that are being run
1732
02:02:38.430 --> 02:02:39.530
on Canadian,
1733
02:02:40.030 --> 02:02:41.490
VPSs right now.
1734
02:02:42.030 --> 02:02:47.514
And depending on how the Canadian government wants to proceed here and how hard they go,
1735
02:02:49.974 --> 02:02:52.715
that should be a very interesting painful case study,
1736
02:02:54.579 --> 02:02:59.000
in in what is custodial risk and what isn't. Because, technically, it's not custodial,
1737
02:03:00.099 --> 02:03:02.994
but if you're running your node on someone else's servers,
1738
02:03:04.574 --> 02:03:06.835
located in a country that's hostile to Bitcoin,
1739
02:03:07.695 --> 02:03:12.530
it could get pretty messy pretty quickly. So it should be interesting to see how that plays out.
1740
02:03:13.470 --> 02:03:14.690
Yeah. Definitely.
1741
02:03:15.390 --> 02:03:20.610
The big one I'm thinking of is is Luna Node because Luna Node is, like, the very low cost,
1742
02:03:21.265 --> 02:03:26.005
easy option of running BTC pay server, and they're a Canadian company. But, Keith, go.
1743
02:03:27.800 --> 02:03:30.060
I'm I'm running my BGC pay on
1744
02:03:30.360 --> 02:03:31.580
the Luna node, but
1745
02:03:31.880 --> 02:03:40.675
but You better move that, brother. The key. No. I control the key. What can they do? They can seize my note, my my BC pay, and they can't get any of my funds.
1746
02:03:41.295 --> 02:03:42.695
I I hopefully Just
1747
02:03:43.135 --> 02:03:49.980
Just gonna I control the key. What are they gonna do? They can they can subpoena me and throw me in jail, but they can't they can't seize it from me.
1748
02:03:51.000 --> 02:03:53.100
You know, quick note on also on the server.
1749
02:03:53.560 --> 02:03:55.420
What key No. What key you control?
1750
02:03:56.215 --> 02:03:58.875
It's just it's running off of a a watch only XPUB.
1751
02:03:59.255 --> 02:04:06.970
No. That's the on chain portion, not the lightning portion. Yeah. No. I I don't I can't deal with lightning. I I can't. Okay. But I but I have to deal with the brain space.
1752
02:04:07.510 --> 02:04:09.050
And then specifically Lightning
1753
02:04:09.430 --> 02:04:12.475
Lightning hot wallets on Right. Right. On Lumen.
1754
02:04:12.855 --> 02:04:14.795
But no. For for lightning integration,
1755
02:04:15.415 --> 02:04:21.594
you know, I think it's just it's such a big space. There's so much to learn that it would, you know, it would just be a huge time suck.
1756
02:04:21.960 --> 02:04:22.460
But,
1757
02:04:23.320 --> 02:04:25.420
as as Moritz had mentioned earlier,
1758
02:04:26.280 --> 02:04:29.340
the 80 like, it was basically 80% of the Swan integration
1759
02:04:29.720 --> 02:04:30.700
was to build
1760
02:04:31.485 --> 02:04:32.225
a flexible
1761
02:04:33.245 --> 02:04:33.745
extensions
1762
02:04:34.125 --> 02:04:35.265
layer into
1763
02:04:35.645 --> 02:04:38.385
Spectre. And Swan just happened to be the first,
1764
02:04:38.850 --> 02:04:41.270
you know, you can think of it as a plug in into Spectre.
1765
02:04:41.890 --> 02:04:50.685
So I'd be really interested to hear ideas of, like, what what would make sense as an extension that would connect, like, LND
1766
02:04:51.225 --> 02:04:51.965
to Spectre.
1767
02:04:52.265 --> 02:04:55.270
You know, like, I I don't I don't run a lightning
1768
02:04:55.650 --> 02:05:00.070
server, so I'm I'm you know, it's been, like, 2 years since I've played with it, so I'm pretty ignorant.
1769
02:05:00.449 --> 02:05:04.625
But, you know, those, like, on chain touch points that LND might have,
1770
02:05:05.245 --> 02:05:09.985
maybe it makes sense to tie that to a wallet inspector, and we can have a simple extension
1771
02:05:10.285 --> 02:05:13.240
that facilitates that communication back and forth.
1772
02:05:13.940 --> 02:05:23.065
That is you know, depending on what needs to be done, but something like that should be fairly straightforward where you're just saying, hey, wallet. Give me a new on chain address or,
1773
02:05:23.445 --> 02:05:26.630
hey. You know, let me check my, you know, I don't know, my my,
1774
02:05:27.110 --> 02:05:30.409
what do they call it? My submarine swap out loop out,
1775
02:05:31.270 --> 02:05:31.929
on chain.
1776
02:05:32.949 --> 02:05:34.170
That should be straightforward.
1777
02:05:37.585 --> 02:05:38.565
I dig it.
1778
02:05:39.505 --> 02:05:44.405
I, yeah, look forward to seeing what extensions get added, to Spectre going forward.
1779
02:05:45.719 --> 02:05:47.340
Yeah. And and, actually, I did
1780
02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:50.060
I did tweet out my my trivial,
1781
02:05:50.600 --> 02:05:53.660
slush pool history importer as the the second extension
1782
02:05:54.195 --> 02:06:05.710
Slush would be great. Yeah. So it's I call it trivial because, like, I think it's awesome. I think I I I love the idea of seeing little slush pool icons in in my Spectre, you know, transaction history,
1783
02:06:06.889 --> 02:06:12.145
but it's trivial because slush pool just doesn't allow you to do really deep integrations.
1784
02:06:13.324 --> 02:06:15.425
So literally, all you can do is download
1785
02:06:15.805 --> 02:06:18.065
download your existing payout history
1786
02:06:18.900 --> 02:06:29.705
And then what this Specter extension does, it just looks at your wallet, and it looks at that that CSV file and says, hey. I recognize that address, and it just marks it as a as a slush pool deposit.
1787
02:06:30.645 --> 02:06:44.719
So it it doesn't do much, but it was kind of a proof of concept and, you know, it'll be neat to see those little icons show up. Are you guys talking to anyone at Slush? I mean, it'd be awesome. Right now, Slush has automatic withdrawals, but it's a fixed address. It'd be awesome if
1788
02:06:46.145 --> 02:06:51.284
if we had, like, the Swan type of integration, but with Slush where it went to a new address every time.
1789
02:06:51.665 --> 02:06:53.284
Yeah. I mean, their their API,
1790
02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:54.659
the the
1791
02:06:55.440 --> 02:06:58.980
there's a gaping hole around anything related to
1792
02:06:59.360 --> 02:07:01.940
payout addresses or history or anything.
1793
02:07:02.385 --> 02:07:06.485
And I assume that's, you know, intentional that they just don't wanna go there.
1794
02:07:06.945 --> 02:07:13.910
But if anyone has connections into Slush, I would I would love to have that API endpoint. I think that would be amazing.
1795
02:07:14.450 --> 02:07:16.710
Okay. I'm gonna start that conversation after
1796
02:07:17.170 --> 02:07:18.390
after we get off,
1797
02:07:19.250 --> 02:07:22.070
because I think that would be absolutely fantastic,
1798
02:07:22.775 --> 02:07:25.594
particularly to home miners who tend to use slush.
1799
02:07:26.855 --> 02:07:29.275
It is my my favorite mining pool.
1800
02:07:31.239 --> 02:07:36.380
Okay, guys. I mean, it's been 2 hours and 7 minutes. I think this has been an absolutely fantastic conversation.
1801
02:07:37.079 --> 02:07:39.260
I like to wrap it up with final thoughts.
1802
02:07:41.845 --> 02:07:43.225
Keith, final thoughts?
1803
02:07:45.205 --> 02:07:47.225
None. Thanks for having us. Great conversation.
1804
02:07:48.770 --> 02:07:51.830
I love you, Keith. Thanks for coming on. Maritz, final thoughts.
1805
02:07:52.449 --> 02:07:54.469
Final thought is stay paranoid.
1806
02:07:56.130 --> 02:07:59.074
Do yourself custody, run your notes, and,
1807
02:07:59.795 --> 02:08:01.655
don't comply with any of this
1808
02:08:02.275 --> 02:08:04.135
BS people throw at you.
1809
02:08:04.514 --> 02:08:08.054
And, that's my, that's my spirit at the moment, I will guess.
1810
02:08:09.300 --> 02:08:10.600
Awesome. Thank you, Maritz.
1811
02:08:11.620 --> 02:08:18.885
First of all, I wanna say a huge thank you to our guests. I appreciate both of you and your work. It is truly appreciated.
1812
02:08:19.745 --> 02:08:21.765
If you wanna support Spectre Development,
1813
02:08:23.345 --> 02:08:30.400
and you're a programmer, go to their GitHub, start reviewing things, contribute. I know they appreciate it. If you're not a programmer,
1814
02:08:31.180 --> 02:08:32.480
go to donate dotspector.solutions,
1815
02:08:34.114 --> 02:08:35.494
and send them some stats.
1816
02:08:36.594 --> 02:08:44.280
They really do it really does go a long way. I know Keith Keith, you have a donation page too, don't you? What is your donation page specifically?
1817
02:08:44.820 --> 02:08:46.520
Yeah. I'm just btcpay.keithmukai.com.
1818
02:08:49.380 --> 02:08:49.880
Boom.
1819
02:08:51.114 --> 02:08:52.014
Go to btcpay.keithmukai.com.
1820
02:08:53.675 --> 02:08:56.414
Send them some stats. It really does go a long way.
1821
02:08:57.514 --> 02:09:03.130
I try and model dispatch off of these open source projects. As as always, we don't have ads or sponsors.
1822
02:09:03.830 --> 02:09:08.410
So if you do appreciate the content here, please consider sending me some stats as well.
1823
02:09:11.445 --> 02:09:15.785
What else? I wanna thank all the freaks for joining us. I hope you found this conversation productive.
1824
02:09:16.410 --> 02:09:17.610
Special big thanks,
1825
02:09:18.010 --> 02:09:21.870
to the freaks who joined us in the live chat and contributed to the discussion.
1826
02:09:22.250 --> 02:09:25.054
Once again, you can find the link to that at citadel dispatch.com
1827
02:09:25.355 --> 02:09:27.454
and then clicking that citadel chat link.
1828
02:09:28.155 --> 02:09:32.175
Maurice, I forgot to remind you, but we end every dispatch with a music video.
1829
02:09:33.270 --> 02:09:39.929
So you can either listen with us or you can leave while it's going. Love you, freaks. I'll hang in. I'll hang in.
1830
02:09:40.230 --> 02:09:41.050
Thanks, guys.
1831
02:11:52.830 --> 02:11:53.330
Yeah.
1832
02:11:54.670 --> 02:11:56.290
There's nothing in the suitable
1833
02:11:57.230 --> 02:11:57.970
more beautiful
1834
02:11:58.350 --> 02:11:59.185
than this.
1835
02:12:03.572 --> 02:12:04.072
Okay?
1836
02:14:14.310 --> 02:14:15.530
Appreciate you freaks.
1837
02:14:16.070 --> 02:14:18.810
Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.
1838
02:14:20.055 --> 02:14:23.195
Rabbit hole recap this week will be on Friday because Marty's traveling.
1839
02:14:23.735 --> 02:14:26.315
I'll see you on Tuesday for another dispatch.
1840
02:14:27.750 --> 02:14:31.210
I have to figure out what that conversation is gonna be. I haven't figured out yet.
1841
02:14:33.510 --> 02:14:34.250
What else?
1842
02:14:36.285 --> 02:14:40.865
If you're an open source developer, if you contribute to open source projects in the Bitcoin space,
1843
02:14:41.805 --> 02:14:44.785
I help facilitate an open source ticket program
1844
02:14:46.140 --> 02:14:46.960
for developers,
1845
02:14:47.260 --> 02:14:55.855
for contributors of those projects. You don't even have to be a developer. You could be someone who'd as long as you did a commit before October 1st for those projects, you get a free ticket,
1846
02:14:56.875 --> 02:14:58.974
to Bitcoin 2022 in Miami.
1847
02:14:59.514 --> 02:15:00.574
If you go to b.tc/conference/
1848
02:15:03.449 --> 02:15:03.949
opendashsource,
1849
02:15:04.809 --> 02:15:05.710
not the best,
1850
02:15:06.250 --> 02:15:08.190
domain. But if you just type in b.tcspaceopensource
1851
02:15:11.115 --> 02:15:15.535
into DuckDuckGo, it comes up. You just press apply. Literally, just manually
1852
02:15:16.875 --> 02:15:18.095
approving those people.
1853
02:15:18.840 --> 02:15:23.579
So if you weren't aware of that, consider doing that. And if you aren't contributing to an open source project,
1854
02:15:24.119 --> 02:15:25.179
consider starting.
1855
02:15:26.525 --> 02:15:27.265
But regardless,
1856
02:15:27.645 --> 02:15:31.585
there is a discount code open source, which gets you 21% off.
1857
02:15:32.285 --> 02:15:37.860
Do not share that on Twitter. Otherwise, they will disable it because it is the highest discount you can get.
1858
02:15:38.400 --> 02:15:41.300
I love you all. Stay humble, Stack Sats. Cheers.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:28:54 PM
Duration: 8143.569
Channels: 1
1
00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:04.180
2
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:05.620
immediate actions.
3
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:06.980
1st,
4
00:00:07.365 --> 00:00:11.465
we are broadening the scope of Canada's anti money lauder laundering
5
00:00:12.004 --> 00:00:13.945
and terrorist financing rules
6
00:00:14.540 --> 00:00:16.320
so that they cover crowdfunding
7
00:00:16.780 --> 00:00:17.280
platforms
8
00:00:17.980 --> 00:00:20.800
and the payment service providers they use.
9
00:00:21.664 --> 00:00:24.564
These changes cover all forms of transactions,
10
00:00:25.585 --> 00:00:27.445
including digital assets,
11
00:00:27.904 --> 00:00:28.965
such as cryptocurrencies.
12
00:00:30.869 --> 00:00:34.570
The illegal blockades have highlighted the fact that crowdfunding
13
00:00:34.950 --> 00:00:35.450
platforms
14
00:00:36.309 --> 00:00:39.370
and some of the payment service providers they use
15
00:00:39.955 --> 00:00:45.415
are not fully captured under the proceeds of crime and terrorist financing act.
16
00:00:46.275 --> 00:00:48.215
Our banks and financial institutions
17
00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:49.630
are already obligated
18
00:00:50.170 --> 00:00:52.350
to report to the Financial Transactions
19
00:00:52.809 --> 00:00:55.550
and Reports Analysis Center of Canada
20
00:00:56.325 --> 00:00:57.065
or FINTRAC.
21
00:00:58.165 --> 00:00:59.065
As of today,
22
00:00:59.845 --> 00:01:00.665
all crowdfunding
23
00:01:01.125 --> 00:01:01.625
platforms
24
00:01:02.245 --> 00:01:04.905
and the payment service providers they use
25
00:01:05.500 --> 00:01:07.440
must register with FINTRAC,
26
00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:09.680
and they must report
27
00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:12.080
large and suspicious transactions
28
00:01:12.925 --> 00:01:15.105
to FINTRAC their relationships
29
00:01:15.645 --> 00:01:18.625
with anyone involved in the illegal blockades
30
00:01:19.165 --> 00:01:20.865
and report to the RCMP
31
00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:22.320
or CSIS.
32
00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:24.479
As of today,
33
00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:28.159
a bank or other financial service provider
34
00:01:28.755 --> 00:01:30.695
will be able to immediately
35
00:01:30.995 --> 00:01:31.495
freeze
36
00:01:31.955 --> 00:01:33.655
or suspend an account
37
00:01:34.195 --> 00:01:35.895
without a court order.
38
00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:37.860
In doing so,
39
00:01:38.399 --> 00:01:39.380
they will be protected
40
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.299
against civil liability
41
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.740
for actions taken in good faith.
42
00:01:45.485 --> 00:01:46.865
Federal government institutions
43
00:01:47.165 --> 00:01:49.745
will have a new broad authority
44
00:01:50.365 --> 00:01:53.585
to share relevant information with banks
45
00:01:53.970 --> 00:01:55.990
and other financial service providers
46
00:01:56.610 --> 00:01:57.009
to ensure
47
00:01:58.530 --> 00:01:59.670
This is about
48
00:02:00.049 --> 00:02:00.549
following
49
00:02:00.930 --> 00:02:01.509
the money.
50
00:02:02.495 --> 00:02:05.075
This is about stopping the financing
51
00:02:05.455 --> 00:02:07.235
of these illegal blockades.
52
00:02:08.415 --> 00:02:10.515
We are today serving notice.
53
00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:16.060
If your truck is being used in these illegal blockades,
54
00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:17.900
your corporate accounts
55
00:02:18.495 --> 00:02:19.555
will be frozen.
56
00:02:20.495 --> 00:02:22.355
The insurance on your vehicle
57
00:02:22.655 --> 00:02:24.115
will be suspended.
58
00:02:25.670 --> 00:02:28.090
Send your semi trailers home.
59
00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:32.810
The Canadian economy needs them to be doing legitimate work,
60
00:02:33.625 --> 00:02:35.325
not to be illegally
61
00:02:35.945 --> 00:02:38.205
making us all poor.
62
00:03:15.510 --> 00:03:21.930
63
00:03:23.045 --> 00:03:28.745
CIL dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
64
00:03:29.525 --> 00:03:34.320
Wanna do a huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show, keeping it
65
00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:42.055
free of ads and sponsors. Dispatch is a 100% audience funded, purely focused on actual Bitcoin discussion.
66
00:03:42.355 --> 00:03:45.495
If you wanna support the show, you can do so at sitaldispatch.com
67
00:03:46.435 --> 00:03:47.174
through either
68
00:03:47.474 --> 00:03:49.254
On Chain Bitcoin or Lightning.
69
00:03:50.489 --> 00:03:54.269
I also have a PayNim, which is easy to remember. It's Odell.
70
00:03:55.209 --> 00:04:01.155
If you're using Samura or Sparrow Wallet, you can support me that way. Another way to support the show
71
00:04:01.694 --> 00:04:06.674
is through podcasting 2 point o apps. I like fountain podcast. I like Breeze Wallet.
72
00:04:07.569 --> 00:04:09.510
Both of them are very easy to use.
73
00:04:10.450 --> 00:04:22.655
You install it on your phone. You search Siddle dispatch. You press the subscribe button. You load it up with stats, then you basically choose how many sats per minute you think dispatch is worth to you. And as you listen, it streams those sats
74
00:04:23.035 --> 00:04:24.410
directly to my node.
75
00:04:25.210 --> 00:04:31.630
Dispatch is broadcast on Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, and Bitcoin TV dot com. All links are at sildispatch.com.
76
00:04:32.645 --> 00:04:34.985
It's also available in any podcasting app.
77
00:04:35.685 --> 00:04:36.825
You just search
78
00:04:37.205 --> 00:04:37.705
dispatch.
79
00:04:39.205 --> 00:04:40.585
So with all that said,
80
00:04:41.410 --> 00:04:45.670
obviously, the intro there was some really dark times coming out of Canada.
81
00:04:46.610 --> 00:04:49.430
They're using financial surveillance and financial control
82
00:04:50.025 --> 00:04:51.725
to attack their political enemies,
83
00:04:53.625 --> 00:04:56.845
including going after Bitcoiners because of the Bitcoin crowdfunding
84
00:04:57.225 --> 00:04:58.765
attempts that are being done.
85
00:05:00.129 --> 00:05:02.949
It's a developing situation. Really hate to see it.
86
00:05:04.289 --> 00:05:08.965
Free countries should be supporting monetary choice and monetary freedom.
87
00:05:09.985 --> 00:05:11.444
They shouldn't be doing authoritarian
88
00:05:11.745 --> 00:05:13.044
dictator style shit.
89
00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:19.820
Anyway, with all that said, hopefully, we're gonna have a lighter, more enjoyable conversation. I have some 2 great guests,
90
00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:21.360
joining us today.
91
00:05:23.125 --> 00:05:27.544
Oh, before I get there, as always, if you wanna participate in the live discussion
92
00:05:28.245 --> 00:05:29.384
as we are
93
00:05:30.870 --> 00:05:34.490
doing our dispatches. The live audience is a key aspect of this show,
94
00:05:35.270 --> 00:05:36.490
makes it very unique.
95
00:05:36.950 --> 00:05:42.405
In a lot of ways, I feel like the live audience is a host alongside me, and you guys do make it special.
96
00:05:43.104 --> 00:05:44.724
We have a matrix chat,
97
00:05:45.425 --> 00:05:47.844
which you can find the link to that at citadel dispatch.com
98
00:05:48.145 --> 00:05:49.100
if you just click
99
00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:51.660
citadel chat, very easy to install.
100
00:05:52.040 --> 00:06:01.795
My favorite client is Element. It'll pass you through the instructions. You install Element, then you reclick the link, and you jump into the chat. And that chat is is been
101
00:06:02.255 --> 00:06:06.275
popping lately. We have over 700 Bitcoiners in there even when we're not doing dispatch.
102
00:06:07.450 --> 00:06:11.550
There's really, really great productive Bitcoin conversation happening in there.
103
00:06:12.570 --> 00:06:18.884
Okay. So with all that said, I got 2 great guests here. We have a return guest. We have Keith Mukai. Keith, how's it going?
104
00:06:19.425 --> 00:06:24.085
Hey. Happy to be here. Awesome. And, thanks for joining as as always.
105
00:06:24.990 --> 00:06:27.810
And we have Maritz. Maritz, how's it going?
106
00:06:28.830 --> 00:06:32.289
107
00:06:32.995 --> 00:06:36.775
108
00:06:37.235 --> 00:06:41.815
our main conversation is gonna be Specter Wallet, which is one of my favorite Bitcoin wallets.
109
00:06:42.170 --> 00:06:45.390
It's incorporated in the guides that you can find at sill dispatch.com.
110
00:06:46.890 --> 00:06:48.910
I've had some of your team on before,
111
00:06:49.555 --> 00:06:55.175
but I've never had you on, so I'm very excited to have a proper discussion with you on air as well.
112
00:06:56.035 --> 00:06:59.050
The focus today will be using your own Bitcoin node,
113
00:06:59.670 --> 00:07:02.090
using Specter Wallet, trade offs to KYC.
114
00:07:02.790 --> 00:07:05.210
We have a lot of different topics we're gonna cover.
115
00:07:06.395 --> 00:07:09.375
But before we do that, let's just start with high level.
116
00:07:09.835 --> 00:07:10.335
How
117
00:07:10.955 --> 00:07:16.190
how do you explain what Specter Wallet is? What is Specter Wallet? Why should people care? Why should people consider using
118
00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:20.190
119
00:07:21.610 --> 00:07:26.664
the the key feature of Specter is that it really connects your hardware wallets to your,
120
00:07:28.025 --> 00:07:30.925
Bitcoin core node. And, this is basically
121
00:07:31.590 --> 00:07:39.050
the key feature. It makes it really easy to to use your node and not just to run it and and but really use it for for verification.
122
00:07:39.750 --> 00:07:43.455
So expect that we think sort of in three levels about this. So
123
00:07:43.835 --> 00:07:44.735
we think about,
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your node and your verification. You should run your own node. We had,
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early 2021, we had discussions if we should,
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add,
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Electrum
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support
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or connect,
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to allow to connect to Electrum
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and servers, and we we decided against this. We are sort of node maximalists
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here, and really believe it's it's it's way easier
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to to run a Bitcoin than many people think.
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Second is that we
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want to encourage by default to you the user to not only run his note, but also use his own wallet infrastructure, which is part of the Bitcoin core node. And it's very powerful, especially with HWI
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and,
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and PSPT. You can really make great use of the wallet infrastructure. And this is a point maybe we can touch on later.
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People shouldn't use the back ends of, hardware wallet, manufacturers
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such as Ledger and Trezza, in my opinion, because,
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addresses and x pops are sent to these infrastructures. And,
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if somebody has your x pop, he knows all about your payment history and also future payments. So this is, this is not good. And finally, the third point is
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not your keys,
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not your not your Bitcoin. So it's about node verification. It's about wallet, your wallet infrastructure. So it's privacy
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and then,
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your keys, your coins, basically. And, of course, we wanna be as work with the standards, be as interoperable as possible.
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So if a user doesn't like Spectre anymore, he wants to go over to Sparrow. If somebody doesn't like Sparrow anymore, he can skip over to Spectre or to BlueWallet. So we need to offer this interoperability and,
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avoid as much as possible to lock in any any Bitconers in their
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in in in their in in wallet specifications or something like this.
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Yes. So
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to the freaks that might be maybe a tiny bit confused.
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I don't think you are, but just in case,
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Specter is a piece of software that you can install on your desktop.
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You can install it on Linux, Mac, Windows.
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You install Bitcoin Core alongside it.
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So Bitcoin Core is a reference client
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for Bitcoin. It it is your own node,
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and it's a wallet.
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If when you interact with the Bitcoin network,
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you are going to need to use a node to interact with the Bitcoin network. If you're not using your own node, you're using someone else's node, and you're trusting them with
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Mauriz,
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insinuate
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not insinuated, but alluded to when he was talking about the software that comes with your hardware wallets. If you're using, like, Ledger Live or Treasure Web Suite,
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the default software that comes with those wallets.
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They will use Ledger's node or Treasure's node.
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So Specter allows you to interact with pretty much every hardware wallet,
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that is available,
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and you can interact easily and directly with your own Bitcoin Core node.
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You can do multisig. You can do single sig. It's just a very easy
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UX,
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for basically interacting directly with your node.
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and I guess this is probably a little bit before I started using Specter, so I never actually tried out this feature is Bitcoin Core is,
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like,
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can't they just install Spectre Wallet now and then it can automatically download Bitcoin Core as part of that process? Isn't there some kind of integration there?
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the possibility
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to,
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run Bitcoin Core,
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in your Spectre desktop,
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which is a great feature for people who want to have it packaged.
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I'm a little bit old school. I I I have to confess I still have my Bitcoin Core software running next to my Spectre software because I really like to see,
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sometimes I wanna go back into the real Bitcoin core software and see the transactions and everything, the labeling, which,
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So when we first came out, we we had it separately, then we packaged it. And,
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it's it's it's a lot of people also, like, on the bigger page is, like, a lot of people think, oh, running a node is very complicated, and I need to
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Raspberry Blitz and and, or get Umbrel and need all this hardware. It's like, it's not. If you have an old MacBook or old laptop lying around, which is not, like, completely
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slow and completely broken,
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you can basically
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use this as as your,
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node hardware to say so. And you can install your,
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Bitcoin core node. You can sync it yourself. We have also a website app, which is called pruned node today
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or pruned note dot today, which is maintained by our CTO, Stefan Znigarev.
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And you can download a 5 gigabyte
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pruned.
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And you can put this on your laptop and and run it and then put the spectra on it, and you have a dedicated laptop. And for for running this, you don't have to buy any new hardware there. And most people have a have a old
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laptop
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lying around, I guess.
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if if you want to use Lightning, then it gets a little bit more complicated because you need to have something that's always on. But if we're talking about on chain Bitcoin, we're talking about cold storage,
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we're talking about your savings wallets.
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Mhmm. The, you know, the cool thing is is you can literally just turn it off and turn it on on demand. You only really need to have,
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Spectre and core running when you're actually interacting with your wallets. Right?
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I feel for
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people have the private keys on there, for the lightning stuff. But it's for me, it feels more this is still a playground,
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when you see get Umbra or Raspberry Blitz. And that it's not something where I want to run my
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Bitcoin core and
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and cold storage infrastructure.
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So is there a difference between the cold storage
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infrastructure and sort of the
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hacky interesting lightning
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the node implementations make a lot of sense,
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like these little node boxes,
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because once again, you wanna run it 24 or 7,
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and you want it to be low power consuming.
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Obviously,
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they are a hot wallet in terms of lightning, so there's some security risk there. But, that's more on lightning than the actual node implementations.
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Hopefully, there's, you know, some kind of advancements in terms of
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having some keys cold and figuring out how to do that. But in practice, I mean, you're constantly having to change state.
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You need hot keys.
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The other use case I would say is for people that are using coin join. I mean, if you're using the Whirlpool implementation,
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you get free remixing, but only when you're online. So you want that to be on 247 as well. So it's through these things that are, like, 247.
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I think that makes a lot of sense.
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I mean, I know in my personal setup, and I don't like talking about my personal setup too much, but I'll give the freaks a little bit,
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is, you know, I use a separate Bitcoin core instance for my cold storage than I do for,
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Lightning.
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Mhmm. And that's just because in general, if you,
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separate things,
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you reduce your attack surface, and you're gonna be in a better
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you're gonna be in a better situation from a privacy and security perspective.
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I don't know if that's absolutely necessary.
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I guess with the way Spectre is set up, it kind of makes sense because
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so you alluded to it earlier.
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Spectre actually
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isn't it's more of a UX for Bitcoin Core. Like, the keys
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are actually
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like, you can see it too. Like, if you open Bitcoin Core when you're using Specter, it's they everything shows up in Bitcoin Core as if you were using Bitcoin Core as a wallet by itself.
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So presumably
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and I haven't done this, but my assumption would be
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if you were using
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so Spectre's cool that it gives you options. Right? So you we already talked about the easiest option, which I like the most, which is you're running
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basically a dedicated computer with Spectre and Bitcoin Core on it.
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But you can also connect to a remote Bitcoin Core.
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And if you do that, then
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you're there's a private there's privacy risk because because all the all that UTXO information is on your
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247
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node. Right?
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So these are just trade offs that people should consider and
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and based on their threat model.
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But I would say that if if your primary goal is, you know, strong savings,
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cold storage,
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it's really unnecessary to be running one of these 247 boxes, and it's just extremely it's way more user friendly and accessible than people realize just installing Spectre and following the prompts to have Bitcoin Core run alongside it.
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really go and and run the node and and and get your hands a little bit dirty
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and try to get a little bit more familiar with all the technical stuff that is happening if you're not coming from the developer side anyways and from technical side.
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So I I see a lot of that that people get completely
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tied up in all this,
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Twitter noise and all this, which is very exciting. I mean, there are, like, so many blogs and articles and podcasts every day. Like, I can't keep up with the space.
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But, I think there's a important thing that you have to pause sometimes and
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multi sick cold storage. So
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then if you wanna,
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have a setup like this and,
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because you wanna protect the larger amount
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of your savings in in Bitcoin,
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then I recommend, like, really get familiar with the software. Have a single 6 sec setup first. Put a small amount. Test all the transactions,
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and do recovery drills, and especially if you're moving to multisig. So if I'm when I moved to multisig,
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like, one and a half years ago, it's really important that you,
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put the keys up in a in a in a good way, that you have a plan, that you you know what you do,
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and and you ease in. It's not like, oh, tomorrow I'm gonna take my, and I expect it to be done in 2 hours. No. No. No. This is like a
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a thing where you have to really ease in over over time in my opinion.
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Practice everything.
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You know? Restore you wanna practice the backup restore procedure. You wanna pretend like you're in a situation where, like, devices are broken.
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You wanna get really comfortable with it because when you're in an actual situation where you're trying to recover the funds, it doesn't you don't want that to be the first time you're doing it.
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You're gonna scare the shit out of yourself.
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You're gonna panic, and maybe you screw things up. So you wanna take it slow, but at at the same time, don't be scared about it. It's it's not as overwhelming as as one might think. Right?
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Keith, you have anything to add here?
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the node in a box,
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like, you know, the umbrellas are both blessing and curse. Right? They make it so easy. You can one click install Spectre.
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But when you wanna do something a little more complicated,
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it makes life complicated.
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So if you wanna run Spectre
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outside of your Umbrel node, but you figure, hey, I'm running a full node on Umbrel, so I'll just connect my my other Spectre laptop
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to my Umbrel node,
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which you can do,
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but Umbrel only exposes the node over Tor.
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So now on your local network,
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you have one machine
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navigating Tor
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just to get to your local network node
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on Umbrel. And, you know, somebody mentioned in the comments that,
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you know, Black Coffee said, I liked I really like Spectre desktop, but it got really laggy on multiple computers.
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And it depends on your setup, but
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something like, you know, this
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is it's kind of unexpected, you know, because in in your mind, it's really natural to just think, I'm running a node, I'm running Spectre, connect the 2, magic happens, it's great.
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But it's just kind of absurd to go through the Tor step when you're all on your own local network. And so
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the point where you want to be more like Moritz and pull your Spectre
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off of Umbrel,
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you know, because maybe you just don't have the same level of trust on in in Umbrel or in that environment,
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then you really should just be running a second node,
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just to make the communication quick, whether whether it's on the same laptop or a a a a node running on your local network, but just you can't connect to it over Tor. It's just it's gonna make the experience terrible.
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And there are there are places
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in Spectre where
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we definitely need to look at the time it takes to do these RPC calls,
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when you're talking from Spectre to your node and try to make the experience better, maybe cache more in memory if we can.
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But at the end of the day, we directly interface with Core. And if you're connecting over a slow connection, it's just gonna be a a miserable experience.
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having Core and Spectre on the same machine is is the exact opposite. Right? There's
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there's there's no external communication that happened has to happen, period.
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RPC connection and your, you know, computer,
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laptop CPU is gonna allow.
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And then someone Lance Huddle also said, so what you're telling me is since I run a node anyway, I should delete Ledger Live and use Spectre
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or anything. You can use Sparrow. You can use Spectre.
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You know, I I don't
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know Lance Huddle, and I don't know your level
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of technical
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experience, but I can speak for myself.
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Like, it took me a long time to understand that my Bitcoin wasn't stuck in Ledger Live and that it wasn't stuck even on the Ledger device itself.
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It was a revelation when I started using Specter
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and I could import the XPUBs from my Ledger
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and see all my balances. I'm like, oh my god, it's here.
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You know? And, like, I was such a noob. I'm like, how did it copy over? You know?
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But, yeah, there's that's the beauty of of Bitcoin. All your value is sitting on, you know, the the the blockchain that everyone has a copy of. So,
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yeah, get rid of the the corporate
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spyware and just run your own node, connect your keys to it in in, basically, watch only mode, and everything is already there.
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I think Bitcoin will
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I think most people that fuck around with shitcoins,
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would have been better off just being humble and stacking,
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sats. But, if you are if you are fucking around with shitcoins, that's probably the main reason to use Ledger Live. But if you're not and you are Bitcoin only, you should you should switch. Yes. And you should use your own node.
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And like we said earlier, it is way easier than you would expect.
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It looks like a maybe like a outlook or
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conspiracy
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theory. So I would say
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that
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these
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the regulators, if they start moving forward against all these,
351
00:25:05.394 --> 00:25:07.894
against Bitcoin and crypto and trying to
352
00:25:08.195 --> 00:25:13.539
tie things down as we see in Canada happening also in the European Union. Is I think they will
353
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.860
begin to approach Ledger and Trezor and tell them,
354
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.460
okay, guys. You don't have the private keys, but you are actually
355
00:25:21.975 --> 00:25:24.075
operating a wallet and node infrastructure,
356
00:25:24.775 --> 00:25:26.235
and you're preparing transactions
357
00:25:26.535 --> 00:25:27.755
and you're broadcasting
358
00:25:28.135 --> 00:25:30.795
transactions. What you're actually doing, you're a payment provider,
359
00:25:31.110 --> 00:25:33.210
and you're giving out these hardware tokens
360
00:25:33.590 --> 00:25:34.090
to,
361
00:25:36.310 --> 00:25:39.850
to your users, and you don't KYC on AML then. So
362
00:25:40.310 --> 00:25:50.715
and so what I would say is, like, they will receive a lot of pressure, ledger, and trust, and others to actually KYC, AML the whole infrastructure. So if you're signing up there or you're you're
363
00:25:51.110 --> 00:25:54.170
you're using this, they will ask for KYC AML,
364
00:25:54.870 --> 00:25:55.850
and they will,
365
00:25:56.630 --> 00:25:58.490
I think, directly report it.
366
00:25:58.815 --> 00:26:03.455
367
00:26:04.495 --> 00:26:06.995
you know, the clip that I played in the beginning from
368
00:26:08.030 --> 00:26:13.010
the Canadian government. But, the one of the good things here to keep in mind is,
369
00:26:14.030 --> 00:26:18.585
because we have Spectre, because we have Sparrow, because we have Electrum and BlueWallet,
370
00:26:20.325 --> 00:26:24.725
or maybe less so BlueWallet because BlueWallet uses their own Electrum server, but,
371
00:26:25.350 --> 00:26:26.170
by default.
372
00:26:26.870 --> 00:26:29.610
You you have the option to move at that point.
373
00:26:29.910 --> 00:26:35.965
You always have the option to to move from, you know, Ledger Live or Trezza Web Suite. We have,
374
00:26:37.465 --> 00:26:47.920
Yoichi Gama in in the comments asking how do we import UTXOs from Ledger. Very, very simple. You basically install Spector wallet, you follow the prompts to install Bitcoin Core,
375
00:26:48.300 --> 00:26:59.795
and then you you, you click, like, add wallet and you follow the prompts on Ledger. And you plug in your Ledger, you put in your PIN, and, like, gives you this very clean UX that tells you how to connect to it.
376
00:27:01.669 --> 00:27:05.129
Same with Trezor, same with Seed Signers, same with Coldcard,
377
00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:09.129
same with all of the hardware wallets. You just once you install
378
00:27:09.605 --> 00:27:12.745
Specter, you just basically follow the prompts inside Specter,
379
00:27:13.445 --> 00:27:14.265
to integrate
380
00:27:14.565 --> 00:27:17.950
whatever wallet setup you have, whether that's multisig or single sig.
381
00:27:19.470 --> 00:27:19.970
382
00:27:20.669 --> 00:27:23.570
So Yeah. One more point here is, like,
383
00:27:24.029 --> 00:27:31.025
I think this will be very good for Bitcoin because if you use Ledger and Trezza and you have, like, your, I don't know, 20
384
00:27:31.485 --> 00:27:32.785
20 token or
385
00:27:33.085 --> 00:27:33.585
cryptocurrency
386
00:27:34.125 --> 00:27:36.145
portfolio there or your shitcoin portfolio,
387
00:27:36.750 --> 00:27:37.490
is, like,
388
00:27:37.950 --> 00:27:39.650
not a lot of people will actually
389
00:27:40.110 --> 00:27:43.490
start running, I don't know, 10 different nodes for 10 different,
390
00:27:43.870 --> 00:27:45.650
cryptocurrency networks. I think
391
00:27:46.455 --> 00:27:52.795
if this pressure comes on, a lot of people will just run to Bitcoin and convert all their shit coins into Bitcoin and
392
00:27:53.299 --> 00:27:54.039
because it doesn't
393
00:27:54.340 --> 00:28:13.990
like, you you cannot as a as a home user, when you don't wanna use Ledger or or Trezza, it doesn't make any sense to to to run all these notes. Like, most people won't do it. So what the what a lot of people will do is, like, I think, go towards Bitcoin. And so this kind of pressure, this attack on on on the crypto space to say so in general
394
00:28:14.450 --> 00:28:17.030
is actually good for Bitcoin and and will,
395
00:28:17.650 --> 00:28:19.910
weed out, like, all these these Bitcoin
396
00:28:20.290 --> 00:28:20.790
projects.
397
00:28:21.635 --> 00:28:24.535
398
00:28:24.995 --> 00:28:33.070
at these types of situations, they could be bad for Bitcoiners, like individual Bitcoiners. Mhmm. But in general, if you look at the actual ecosystem, usually,
399
00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:37.710
you know, Bitcoin has been referred to as an antifragile,
400
00:28:38.955 --> 00:28:44.715
protocol, and and, basically, the idea is that as as it gets attacked, as these weak points get hit,
401
00:28:45.035 --> 00:28:50.750
the whole system becomes more robust in response to it. And because it is free and open source software,
402
00:28:51.530 --> 00:28:52.910
that anyone can run,
403
00:28:53.450 --> 00:28:58.965
you don't have central centralized actors there that you can that you can push on. It's almost like a virus.
404
00:28:59.425 --> 00:29:00.725
The code is out there.
405
00:29:01.985 --> 00:29:03.685
Good luck stopping its distribution
406
00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:05.200
and improving.
407
00:29:06.300 --> 00:29:06.800
408
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:11.120
409
00:29:11.500 --> 00:29:17.915
so we can just jump right into it. Specter does offer support for one of the shitcoins, and that's, Liquid Bitcoin.
410
00:29:19.415 --> 00:29:23.510
What what are you what were your thoughts on adding How do you view,
411
00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:27.030
that integration? I mean, I I think,
412
00:29:28.530 --> 00:29:34.775
there I mean, there aren't many liquid wallets, So it's a very Yeah. It's a very key aspect of of what Specter's offering.
413
00:29:36.195 --> 00:29:37.255
414
00:29:38.790 --> 00:29:40.090
December 2021
415
00:29:41.030 --> 00:29:42.810
early 2022, we were
416
00:29:43.430 --> 00:29:45.770
looking at what to do next at Specter. And
417
00:29:46.174 --> 00:29:54.835
we're looking at doing lightning or doing some collaborative custody solution. But then started a conversation with the Blockstream team and and Samsung
418
00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:55.800
and,
419
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.580
wrapped our head around liquid. So,
420
00:29:59.760 --> 00:30:02.260
like, the nice thing about liquid is that it doesn't
421
00:30:02.935 --> 00:30:03.435
create
422
00:30:04.535 --> 00:30:10.395
it it does create an a new token, but it's liquid Bitcoin. So it locks in a real
423
00:30:11.270 --> 00:30:12.570
Bitcoin and uses
424
00:30:13.110 --> 00:30:13.610
Bitcoin,
425
00:30:14.549 --> 00:30:17.370
locked in Bitcoin as the native token.
426
00:30:17.830 --> 00:30:18.230
And,
427
00:30:19.029 --> 00:30:32.170
so and does does move around these liquid Bitcoin with confidential transactions, which basically, in a confidential transaction, you cannot see if liquid Bitcoin was moved or if, a stable coin was moved or
428
00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:45.745
some kind of other token was moved up equity token or debt token, a block stream mining node. So you cannot see what was moved and how much was moved. But you just see the transaction there, that there's a transaction happening. So we thought that,
429
00:30:46.625 --> 00:30:48.840
the liquid model fits better
430
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:51.400
the the the specter model because it's also,
431
00:30:52.419 --> 00:30:59.815
like, it doesn't have to be always on. It doesn't have to be always connected like in lightning. So it fits fits the the spect approach better.
432
00:31:00.355 --> 00:31:05.895
And, we see something that is an interesting tool for Bitcoiners and, for
433
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.520
the the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole.
434
00:31:08.820 --> 00:31:18.715
And if something is underdeveloped, then, yeah, we like to we like to touch it and, and and and work on it because we also see a lot of back at the time already, we saw a lot of,
435
00:31:19.835 --> 00:31:24.655
projects in lightning, and we're seeing a lot of things happening in lightning. So we thought, like, okay.
436
00:31:24.980 --> 00:31:27.720
Liquid may be an interesting niche for us. And
437
00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:28.820
it was a bit,
438
00:31:29.540 --> 00:31:35.825
it was tough to integrate. It wasn't easy. We we we we were working hard with this, got great support by the Blockstream team.
439
00:31:36.205 --> 00:31:38.465
And then we launched around October.
440
00:31:38.765 --> 00:31:39.085
And,
441
00:31:39.805 --> 00:31:40.865
Liquid is not
442
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:42.500
very popular with,
443
00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:44.520
with with Bitcorners.
444
00:31:44.900 --> 00:31:45.800
We see this.
445
00:31:46.260 --> 00:31:46.760
And
446
00:31:48.235 --> 00:31:49.135
but I think there's
447
00:31:49.515 --> 00:31:55.375
certain aspects around the confidential transactions, about around the stablecoins. Like, if you wanna touch on stablecoins,
448
00:31:55.870 --> 00:31:59.570
there is a clear use case for us. People use it. People want it.
449
00:31:59.950 --> 00:32:00.270
And,
450
00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:04.529
it's all happening on all this economic activity around these,
451
00:32:06.335 --> 00:32:12.274
stable coins is happening mostly on Ethereum and Tron. So as a Bitcoin, I don't want to see this happening on these
452
00:32:13.550 --> 00:32:19.970
shitcoin networks, basically. I want to see this happening on the site on an on a on a Bitcoin native side chain,
453
00:32:20.910 --> 00:32:26.925
which is clearly federated by a group of companies and organizations. But at at least it's
454
00:32:27.385 --> 00:32:30.525
it's it's Bitcoin native, and it's it's it's it's looking
455
00:32:31.790 --> 00:32:36.450
to to be as close to to the Bitcoin infrastructure as possible and so integrated as possible.
456
00:32:36.910 --> 00:32:38.350
So this was all I mean, I was
457
00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:42.054
458
00:32:42.534 --> 00:32:43.434
Thank you for,
459
00:32:44.215 --> 00:32:52.310
460
00:32:53.030 --> 00:32:57.610
Adam Beck, and we were I was teasing him that he's building a clown coin factory.
461
00:32:58.375 --> 00:33:01.755
462
00:33:02.055 --> 00:33:04.395
so so you can transfer this liquid Bitcoin,
463
00:33:05.830 --> 00:33:08.410
which is is pegged to Bitcoin 1 to 1.
464
00:33:08.790 --> 00:33:10.730
The trust model is similar to
465
00:33:11.430 --> 00:33:13.210
what you would expect, like, a multisig
466
00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:17.934
kind of semi custodial model where you have all these federation members,
467
00:33:19.195 --> 00:33:21.695
who basically need to collude to steal the money,
468
00:33:21.995 --> 00:33:24.255
has the ability to send tokens on top.
469
00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:27.360
I had a really great conversation with Adam Back,
470
00:33:28.299 --> 00:33:37.585
about liquid and other things. That's, still dispatch 20. If you freaks haven't listened to it and you're more curious about liquid, go check that out. That's cildespatch.com/cd20.
471
00:33:40.180 --> 00:33:43.800
And then recently, I actually had 2 Venezuelan Bitcoiners on,
472
00:33:44.580 --> 00:33:45.960
still dispatch 52,
473
00:33:46.934 --> 00:33:51.355
And they were talking about stable coins, which can be transferred on liquid,
474
00:33:53.950 --> 00:33:58.770
and and how useful they are to the Latin American population. So I think a lot of,
475
00:33:59.790 --> 00:34:03.570
you know, from my perspective, Bitcoin is my stable coin. I think
476
00:34:04.175 --> 00:34:05.635
on a long time scale,
477
00:34:06.895 --> 00:34:08.994
it's the most, you know, stable
478
00:34:09.295 --> 00:34:13.075
asset we will ever have. I think it'll trend up with adoption, but as
479
00:34:13.410 --> 00:34:15.510
adoption hit starts to hit a critical mass,
480
00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:21.030
it'll always increase slowly in purchasing power, but it'll become very stable.
481
00:34:21.455 --> 00:34:24.995
But in the short term, when you're looking at a lot of these developing world countries,
482
00:34:26.175 --> 00:34:30.355
they they really wanna peg themselves to the US dollar. They want access to the US dollars,
483
00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:34.270
and Stablecoins provide a route for them in that regard. So I guess,
484
00:34:34.890 --> 00:34:36.650
Liquid could be I mean,
485
00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:41.805
Specter could be a way that they could hold. Right? They can hold these these stable coins.
486
00:34:42.505 --> 00:34:47.145
Yes. So Now I'm curious is Yes. The can you use
487
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:49.099
can you do multisig
488
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:49.900
liquid
489
00:34:51.160 --> 00:34:51.900
on Spectre?
490
00:34:52.680 --> 00:34:53.180
491
00:34:53.560 --> 00:34:57.785
With the Spectre hardware wallet, you can do it. I think we are working
492
00:34:58.085 --> 00:34:58.585
on
493
00:34:58.964 --> 00:35:07.210
Oh, because the hardware wallets themselves need to support it as well. Yes. So the the there's for for liquid hardware, we have the Jade,
494
00:35:07.750 --> 00:35:14.555
but I'm not sure if it can already do multisig. I think we are we are working on that. We're or the the green team is working on that.
495
00:35:16.474 --> 00:35:18.575
But with Spectre with the Spectre
496
00:35:19.035 --> 00:35:22.734
DIY or the Spectre Shield, we have new device coming up.
497
00:35:24.530 --> 00:35:25.570
You can use,
498
00:35:26.130 --> 00:35:26.630
liquid,
499
00:35:27.490 --> 00:35:27.990
multisignature
500
00:35:28.369 --> 00:35:29.510
cold storage there.
501
00:35:29.970 --> 00:35:30.369
And,
502
00:35:30.930 --> 00:35:37.425
yeah, I wanted to yeah. This is this is something also important if you start issuing equity tokens or Bitcoin bonds and
503
00:35:37.965 --> 00:35:40.545
you want to be able to hold these tokens,
504
00:35:41.090 --> 00:35:43.190
in multisig or also as a company
505
00:35:43.570 --> 00:35:44.310
if you wanna,
506
00:35:45.410 --> 00:35:47.350
hold, like, a part of your
507
00:35:47.730 --> 00:35:57.055
treasury in or, like, of your you wanna you have your Bitcoin stack and cold storage, but you want to hold some stable coin for working capital stability.
508
00:35:57.829 --> 00:35:58.150
So,
509
00:35:58.790 --> 00:36:01.849
this is something also you wanna probably hold in in,
510
00:36:02.630 --> 00:36:03.130
multisig,
511
00:36:03.510 --> 00:36:10.175
in a liquid multisig coal storage. And And this is something I really noticed in El Salvador when I was down there in, June,
512
00:36:11.835 --> 00:36:16.320
that the price went down from 60 to 30,000, and all these small,
513
00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:20.340
hotels there and restaurants and everybody,
514
00:36:21.040 --> 00:36:22.340
they didn't want to
515
00:36:23.745 --> 00:36:37.880
accept Bitcoin anymore. And so and I was like, what's what's going on? And they basically had their working capital balance crash. Like, on the way up, everybody wanted to have Bitcoin. And on the way down, it got really, really painful for these small businesses
516
00:36:38.625 --> 00:36:40.085
because, you cannot
517
00:36:40.385 --> 00:36:44.165
run your little hotel without working capital stability,
518
00:36:44.625 --> 00:36:45.685
which means that
519
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:53.700
you get paid in in Bitcoin, then Bitcoin price crashes, and you have to buy new supplies for your restaurant or pay your employees. So
520
00:36:54.585 --> 00:36:55.085
this
521
00:36:55.385 --> 00:36:58.205
we are not there yet. We need some kind of
522
00:36:58.585 --> 00:36:59.645
short term stability.
523
00:37:00.185 --> 00:37:01.405
And short term stability,
524
00:37:02.025 --> 00:37:03.530
well, is not especially
525
00:37:03.910 --> 00:37:04.790
is what you get,
526
00:37:05.270 --> 00:37:08.810
with Bitcoin. You get it to the upside over the long term, but,
527
00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:13.355
running a business on on Bitcoin, if you don't have a strong capital,
528
00:37:13.895 --> 00:37:14.395
how
529
00:37:14.935 --> 00:37:15.435
you
530
00:37:15.974 --> 00:37:16.474
say,
531
00:37:17.734 --> 00:37:20.795
basis, reserve, it's it's it's really difficult. So
532
00:37:21.095 --> 00:37:21.595
yeah.
533
00:37:22.060 --> 00:37:24.400
So the these 2 sides are really
534
00:37:25.100 --> 00:37:33.125
535
00:37:33.985 --> 00:37:35.925
can relate to, you know, just your
536
00:37:36.465 --> 00:37:41.579
your net worth dropping by 50% in a couple weeks is not never a good feeling.
537
00:37:44.520 --> 00:37:45.000
So,
538
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:51.015
before we continue, so, I mean, you helped run the Adopting Bitcoin conference in El Salvador.
539
00:37:51.315 --> 00:37:51.815
Right?
540
00:37:52.674 --> 00:37:58.930
541
00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:00.310
the Gallo team.
542
00:38:00.770 --> 00:38:05.590
And, I was there, and I was, like, a bit surprised that in July, there wasn't
543
00:38:06.075 --> 00:38:07.855
more Bitcoin activity. We had.
544
00:38:08.555 --> 00:38:13.850
We had, Mark Moss. But, basically, it was just a a bunch of 20 Bitcoiners there, and so we
545
00:38:14.330 --> 00:38:18.270
started talking about what what can be done. And one thing was that,
546
00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:27.355
for the Aaron, Nicola, and me, we set up the Bitcoin meetup in in San Salvador and really kick started this, but he we also did this to have a
547
00:38:28.075 --> 00:38:32.079
to meet the local Bitcoiners, which was helpful for Aaron, but also
548
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:39.005
to to to prepare the ground for a Bitcoin conference, the adopting Bitcoin conference. And what actually happened is that,
549
00:38:39.565 --> 00:38:43.164
the first week we're out in, in El Zonte, and the second week,
550
00:38:43.565 --> 00:38:47.105
Nicola and me, we went to to San Salvador. And through my
551
00:38:47.490 --> 00:38:48.550
LinkedIn contacts,
552
00:38:48.850 --> 00:39:00.305
con I'm a little bit of a LinkedIn monster there. I contacted a bunch of bankers and and and managers there in San Salvador. We had meetings with a bunch of banks there. And we came in there, and, basically,
553
00:39:00.685 --> 00:39:06.305
nobody knew about what they wanna do. And they were talking one bank was talking to Ripple, actually.
554
00:39:07.070 --> 00:39:07.890
And so
555
00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:14.130
I was then putting a bit more pressure on on Nikola and said, hey. We need a a conference. And then
556
00:39:14.975 --> 00:39:15.875
great kudos,
557
00:39:16.255 --> 00:39:17.615
huge respect to the whole,
558
00:39:18.335 --> 00:39:26.690
Bitcoin Beach and Galloway team there that they actually decided to pull this off. And we had a really, really fantastic conference in November with amazing energy,
559
00:39:27.790 --> 00:39:28.270
600
560
00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:29.730
700 Bitcoiners,
561
00:39:30.535 --> 00:39:32.875
on the ground in the Sheraton Hotel there.
562
00:39:33.335 --> 00:39:43.710
And, we had a fantastic time. We had a a beach day. We had 2 day conferences with much much of a lightning focus. I would like to add a little bit more Bitcoin focus.
563
00:39:44.010 --> 00:39:44.510
It's
564
00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:47.950
not yet announced, but I think it will be
565
00:39:48.285 --> 00:39:50.045
coming back in November to,
566
00:39:50.525 --> 00:39:52.785
El Salvador, and it's gonna be
567
00:39:53.085 --> 00:40:02.210
568
00:40:03.310 --> 00:40:05.869
To to other people who weren't able to make it,
569
00:40:06.545 --> 00:40:09.125
if you go to adopting Bitcoin if you go to bitcointv.com,
570
00:40:09.905 --> 00:40:11.685
adopting Bitcoin has a channel there,
571
00:40:12.545 --> 00:40:13.480
with all the talks,
572
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.500
highly recommend some really great content and discussions,
573
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.380
came out of that, that event. So thank you for running that.
574
00:40:24.415 --> 00:40:25.475
What was your
575
00:40:26.095 --> 00:40:28.675
I that was your first time in El Salvador. Right?
576
00:40:28.975 --> 00:40:35.350
577
00:40:35.890 --> 00:40:50.285
I came for the conference, like, a week before and week afterwards. We will probably also be the month in November. This time, the What was your opinion of of on the ground in El Salvador? I mean, the first country to, you know, adopt a Bitcoin nationwide.
578
00:40:50.870 --> 00:40:51.370
579
00:40:51.910 --> 00:41:00.250
580
00:41:00.895 --> 00:41:03.315
581
00:41:04.415 --> 00:41:14.020
especially in July when you came there, like, okay. It's just really a little beach town, and we have basically 20 shops or whatever, 30 shops accepting Bitcoin there. It wasn't
582
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:16.820
it wasn't like the big big thing that we
583
00:41:17.120 --> 00:41:18.900
we we see on Bitcoin Twitter.
584
00:41:19.395 --> 00:41:27.655
But, and we were, like, also like, there was another reason for the conference with the bank stuff. We were really worried that the 7th September, the Bitcoin
585
00:41:28.200 --> 00:41:36.220
starts in El Salvador, and basically nothing works. Everything is a shit show, and, and it didn't come like this. So the 7th September was
586
00:41:36.675 --> 00:41:40.535
really successful. We can say about Chivo, what you want, but,
587
00:41:41.155 --> 00:41:45.150
this it it it kinda works. And it for a government
588
00:41:46.970 --> 00:41:47.630
put together
589
00:41:48.170 --> 00:41:50.910
590
00:41:51.425 --> 00:42:03.180
591
00:42:03.640 --> 00:42:06.060
restaurant store there, and could right away
592
00:42:06.494 --> 00:42:11.075
pay our lunch with Bitcoin. It wasn't lightning. It was on chain, whatever, but it was already,
593
00:42:11.375 --> 00:42:16.010
that. And then you go into the town, and you can go to the little pupusa,
594
00:42:17.910 --> 00:42:19.210
arepa shop there
595
00:42:19.510 --> 00:42:20.010
and,
596
00:42:20.310 --> 00:42:33.505
and and pay there. But you also can go to McDonald's, to Starbucks, and and stuff just works. You know? And so this is, like, it's really exciting to to see this and to be the this is the first place. This is ground 0.
597
00:42:34.049 --> 00:42:34.449
And,
598
00:42:34.849 --> 00:42:35.829
yes. So
599
00:42:36.289 --> 00:42:40.150
I think also, like, to expand a little bit on that here is, like,
600
00:42:42.435 --> 00:42:44.935
a lot of people are thinking, oh,
601
00:42:45.795 --> 00:42:51.980
Bukele and stuff. I think Bukele needs the Bitcoiners now way more than than than the Bitcoiners need,
602
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.000
Bokele or Bitcoin needs Bokele.
603
00:42:56.035 --> 00:43:00.215
He really is is betting big time on on the whole Bitcoin story.
604
00:43:00.675 --> 00:43:00.995
And,
605
00:43:01.555 --> 00:43:02.295
I think
606
00:43:03.369 --> 00:43:08.990
he's also very dependent on his public perception and stuff. So he needs to be
607
00:43:09.690 --> 00:43:15.655
well received by the Bitcoiners on Bitcoin Twitter. So I think the game theory is quite interesting there.
608
00:43:15.955 --> 00:43:24.190
609
00:43:25.450 --> 00:43:27.710
They all need Bitcoin more than,
610
00:43:28.085 --> 00:43:31.305
Bitcoin needs them. Bitcoin's bigger than any of those individuals.
611
00:43:33.444 --> 00:43:33.944
Just
612
00:43:34.244 --> 00:43:36.744
a complete tangent because this is awesome.
613
00:43:37.279 --> 00:43:40.420
The guy, Yoshi, who asked a question earlier about Ledger
614
00:43:40.720 --> 00:43:46.180
and using it with Specter has completed his onboarding process while we were having this conversation. So
615
00:43:47.385 --> 00:43:50.904
Yay. I think that just goes to show it just goes to show how easy,
616
00:43:51.305 --> 00:43:53.484
you guys have gotten that UX down.
617
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:56.180
Yeah. El Salvador is a very interesting,
618
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:58.180
case study.
619
00:43:58.640 --> 00:43:59.300
It definitely
620
00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:02.180
it it's it's it's what you would expect,
621
00:44:03.175 --> 00:44:06.955
that a challenger country, a small country would adopt Bitcoin first.
622
00:44:08.215 --> 00:44:10.075
It happened sooner than I expected.
623
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:15.940
I'm curious to see if other countries start to follow suit in, like, kind of a Domino's type of way.
624
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:17.460
Obviously,
625
00:44:17.985 --> 00:44:20.005
the Chivo Wallet has a lot of privacy,
626
00:44:21.425 --> 00:44:25.685
and custodial concerns in terms of the government's control over it,
627
00:44:27.819 --> 00:44:28.319
But,
628
00:44:30.140 --> 00:44:37.245
the the key aspect there is that Chivo does interact with the greater Bitcoin Monetary Network and and the Lightning Network. And,
629
00:44:38.205 --> 00:44:42.865
as a result, you can use tools like Specter in your own node or BlueWallet or Moon
630
00:44:43.245 --> 00:44:43.905
to use
631
00:44:46.630 --> 00:44:55.664
rather than relying on the government wallet. Like, I don't think people should be relying on that gov that government wallet. It does it does concern me a bit, and I think people should be,
632
00:44:57.885 --> 00:45:04.390
it's important that as big corners, especially ones with public platforms, that we talk about the trade offs, that are inherent there,
633
00:45:05.490 --> 00:45:14.825
because they are real trade offs and they are real risks to users of of that wallet. But but that is awesome. I really need to make my my pilgrimage to El Salvador. I am
634
00:45:15.125 --> 00:45:17.865
a little bit ashamed of myself that I haven't done it yet,
635
00:45:19.390 --> 00:45:23.329
but I I I will soon. Hopefully, I can make, the next adopting Bitcoin
636
00:45:23.869 --> 00:45:26.290
conference. That would be that would be fucking fire.
637
00:45:29.145 --> 00:45:31.805
638
00:45:32.425 --> 00:45:34.045
you you can't let us go.
639
00:45:34.505 --> 00:45:35.005
640
00:45:35.700 --> 00:45:36.420
pretty good at,
641
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:41.240
I I have a feeling you're gonna be successful at that. I mean, I got so much mambo on the last one.
642
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.095
Before we switch into El Salvador question,
643
00:45:45.055 --> 00:45:50.515
you know, people are giving you shit in the comments about liquid integration saying you shouldn't have liquid integrated.
644
00:45:50.974 --> 00:45:52.575
I think it's important for people to realize, that it is an optional feature.
645
00:46:01.040 --> 00:46:02.795
And And then there's also this aspect,
646
00:46:03.255 --> 00:46:05.734
I mean, we're gonna be talking about another feature that,
647
00:46:07.255 --> 00:46:09.595
has been controversial. But before we get there,
648
00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:12.140
you know,
649
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:14.920
Spectre is MIT licensed, which is,
650
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.220
one of the least restrictive open source licenses available.
651
00:46:18.955 --> 00:46:23.515
Not only can you inspect and verify the code, but you can modify, distribute, and sell it,
652
00:46:24.955 --> 00:46:27.775
without any additional permission from the Spectre team.
653
00:46:28.940 --> 00:46:33.200
So if there is a lot of demand for a Spectre wallet without liquid in it,
654
00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:37.885
another team, a group of individuals, a single individual can can fork out liquid.
655
00:46:39.565 --> 00:46:47.425
How do you so you have that option available to to you as a user. That is one of the beauties of free and open source software.
656
00:46:48.680 --> 00:46:55.180
Morris, how how do you how do you view because Spector's interesting project. Right? And I I just had the seed signer
657
00:46:55.585 --> 00:47:00.405
I had seed signer on, yesterday. I know Keith's involved with the seed signer project as well.
658
00:47:01.025 --> 00:47:03.125
That is also an MIT licensed product.
659
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.740
There's a lot of interesting different models that are going on in terms of
660
00:47:09.120 --> 00:47:11.940
open source projects that are also being run for profit.
661
00:47:12.535 --> 00:47:17.175
And he's he's not actually running Seed signer for profit right now, but he is considering different,
662
00:47:17.575 --> 00:47:18.635
potential paths.
663
00:47:19.415 --> 00:47:20.615
How do you view,
664
00:47:21.910 --> 00:47:31.210
your choice of the MIT license of of having Spectre as proper free open source software with this also attempted path to monetization? Like, how do you how do you
665
00:47:31.735 --> 00:47:32.875
how do you look at that?
666
00:47:34.615 --> 00:47:35.115
667
00:47:35.735 --> 00:47:40.635
just to explain a little bit how how we think about this. So the the Spectre,
668
00:47:41.730 --> 00:47:42.950
like, core version,
669
00:47:43.410 --> 00:47:47.110
which I mentioned before, is, like, your note, your verification,
670
00:47:47.410 --> 00:47:49.270
your wallet infrastructure, your privacy,
671
00:47:50.285 --> 00:47:57.985
your your keys, your Bitcoin. Like, this is the core feature of Spectra. And this is the should be always free and should always
672
00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:03.400
put the user by default into the right direction that he
673
00:48:03.700 --> 00:48:08.185
runs his own node. I mean, we will maybe add later on some, electron
674
00:48:08.965 --> 00:48:09.465
feature,
675
00:48:09.765 --> 00:48:10.265
but
676
00:48:11.285 --> 00:48:12.885
I would like to really keep it,
677
00:48:14.405 --> 00:48:20.700
by default node. And this is something where I square a little bit with Sparrow, where the default mode is more,
678
00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.220
towards,
679
00:48:22.839 --> 00:48:23.339
running,
680
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:25.185
it with a Electrum
681
00:48:25.565 --> 00:48:30.465
preselected Electrum servers, I think MZ, Blockstream, Mempool, and others.
682
00:48:30.925 --> 00:48:31.425
But
683
00:48:31.750 --> 00:48:35.290
I think, like, default settings really define the long term user behavior.
684
00:48:35.829 --> 00:48:42.835
And then you have set up your your Spectra or your your desktop wallet. And I think then the question comes in, like,
685
00:48:44.734 --> 00:48:52.390
how do you, like, as a team, maintain it, and how do you keep supporting it and and keep this wallet info experience
686
00:48:52.769 --> 00:48:54.470
really great. So there are,
687
00:48:54.930 --> 00:48:58.655
different ways to go forward. Like, one would be a conjoin,
688
00:48:59.194 --> 00:48:59.694
integration
689
00:49:00.155 --> 00:49:01.055
where Sparrow
690
00:49:01.355 --> 00:49:03.934
has gone or Wasabi has gone that you,
691
00:49:04.359 --> 00:49:06.700
earn money on the on the CoinJoin side,
692
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:10.619
and the the the money you earn is helping to improve,
693
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:12.380
the wallet experience.
694
00:49:12.964 --> 00:49:13.704
Or you
695
00:49:14.005 --> 00:49:15.545
add add other tools,
696
00:49:16.724 --> 00:49:17.224
like,
697
00:49:17.925 --> 00:49:20.345
you could, integrate a TDEX or,
698
00:49:20.805 --> 00:49:21.865
other other features
699
00:49:24.160 --> 00:49:24.819
or services
700
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:25.440
like,
701
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:26.819
Swan Bitcoin
702
00:49:27.359 --> 00:49:27.859
and
703
00:49:28.640 --> 00:49:31.619
earn money through the cooperation with these companies.
704
00:49:32.115 --> 00:49:35.475
And from these fees, can pay a team to support,
705
00:49:36.115 --> 00:49:38.535
the desktop wallet in in in such a sense.
706
00:49:38.835 --> 00:49:39.335
So,
707
00:49:39.640 --> 00:49:43.260
to answer your question here, I don't really see a point in,
708
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:57.809
in forking out Spectre here because, like, the if you download Spectre and you run it by default, you don't activate any coin joint tools or services that you might wanna use to to buy or sell Bitcoin,
709
00:49:58.750 --> 00:50:00.210
or Bitcoin backed loans,
710
00:50:01.069 --> 00:50:05.329
features or something like this, then you you have a you have
711
00:50:05.674 --> 00:50:08.335
you have a a clean free default
712
00:50:08.714 --> 00:50:09.454
mode here,
713
00:50:09.994 --> 00:50:14.690
714
00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:15.670
715
00:50:16.450 --> 00:50:16.950
And,
716
00:50:17.490 --> 00:50:22.230
like, we want to we have a we have a good group of of legit Bitcoiners working on this,
717
00:50:23.705 --> 00:50:26.925
and they will will will will maintain this as,
718
00:50:27.305 --> 00:50:28.925
as as we build out this
719
00:50:29.385 --> 00:50:30.365
this this model.
720
00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:33.779
721
00:50:34.319 --> 00:50:35.940
we you have a solid reputation.
722
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:37.700
You have,
723
00:50:38.725 --> 00:50:42.585
solid eyes looking at the code and and improving the code.
724
00:50:43.445 --> 00:50:47.180
So the overwhelming majority of people will use your distribution
725
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:48.220
even if,
726
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.220
technically, anyone can fork it and
727
00:50:53.615 --> 00:51:05.180
728
00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.980
provide a, like, a Spectre minimal
729
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:10.405
version or something like this? Right.
730
00:51:10.845 --> 00:51:14.385
And and support this team in in in offering, which is
731
00:51:14.765 --> 00:51:15.505
which has
732
00:51:16.365 --> 00:51:18.920
which which which is just like the minimal minimal
733
00:51:19.299 --> 00:51:22.279
OG version to say so. So but at the moment,
734
00:51:22.819 --> 00:51:27.505
to be frank, we don't have the resources. We are we're working on on getting in some resources
735
00:51:27.805 --> 00:51:29.825
to to to build out the team
736
00:51:30.205 --> 00:51:34.910
and, and, and and and keep improving the the specter overall.
737
00:51:35.690 --> 00:51:36.010
And,
738
00:51:36.730 --> 00:51:38.270
yeah. So the
739
00:51:38.809 --> 00:51:40.030
Do you guys have
740
00:51:40.410 --> 00:51:42.829
741
00:51:43.665 --> 00:51:46.305
742
00:51:46.785 --> 00:51:48.165
we are a little bit,
743
00:51:49.345 --> 00:51:53.440
on hidden on our GitHub, I guess. But if you come, go on our GitHub,
744
00:51:54.060 --> 00:51:54.880
help wanted,
745
00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:56.800
and there's a donation link.
746
00:51:57.180 --> 00:52:02.325
And, yes. So we we we bootstrapped the thing for the last 3 years with,
747
00:52:03.505 --> 00:52:04.005
Stephan's,
748
00:52:04.785 --> 00:52:08.644
brainpower and low salaries and my low salaries and
749
00:52:09.710 --> 00:52:13.810
lots of Bitcoin and Satoshis that I put into Spectre
750
00:52:14.110 --> 00:52:15.890
to to have this wallet out there.
751
00:52:18.685 --> 00:52:19.165
752
00:52:19.645 --> 00:52:21.025
Yeah. Go on. If you look
753
00:52:21.484 --> 00:52:23.105
at, you know, if you look at
754
00:52:23.484 --> 00:52:29.210
what I think, biased opinion, the most important wallets in the space aside from Core, obviously,
755
00:52:29.750 --> 00:52:31.690
you know, you've got Specter, Sparrow.
756
00:52:32.310 --> 00:52:35.770
I would consider BlueWallet on that list. I would consider Samura on that list.
757
00:52:36.205 --> 00:52:44.305
But just looking at Spectre and and Sparrow, like, those are, like, your I think your 2 best choices for your multisig, your cold storage,
758
00:52:45.160 --> 00:52:50.460
that the most hardcore Bitcoiners that that should be like you know, their their default options is one of those 2.
759
00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:52.220
And the Spectre
760
00:52:53.045 --> 00:52:53.865
technical team,
761
00:52:54.405 --> 00:52:54.985
it's Stefan
762
00:52:55.685 --> 00:52:59.465
is the the giant brain doing the hardest things that are closest to Bitcoin,
763
00:53:00.070 --> 00:53:02.890
that are, like, way more complicated than than I can understand.
764
00:53:03.430 --> 00:53:05.290
And then you basically have, like,
765
00:53:05.590 --> 00:53:08.090
one other, you know, mostly full time developer.
766
00:53:08.710 --> 00:53:33.819
I, you know, I I came into Spectre just as a open source contributor. I was like, hey, I'd I'd like it to able to do, you know, I'd like it to be able to use Tor. Do do you mind if I build Tor support? And they're like, oh my god. Please do. You know? Like, hey. Do you mind if I make it so I can plug in my USB hardware wallet? I'm, like, holy shit. Yes. Please do that. But the team is tiny. And then, you know, Sparrow, it's
767
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:35.660
just Craig. Right?
768
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:39.019
I shouldn't have phrased it's just Craig raw
769
00:53:39.405 --> 00:53:39.905
comma.
770
00:53:41.285 --> 00:53:41.785
Correct?
771
00:53:43.165 --> 00:53:44.145
772
00:53:44.765 --> 00:53:48.225
773
00:53:48.799 --> 00:53:51.760
But and and I think he just got a grant recently from,
774
00:53:52.160 --> 00:53:52.660
HRF.
775
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:53.619
776
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:55.380
777
00:53:55.680 --> 00:53:57.859
these are 2 really important wallets
778
00:53:58.335 --> 00:53:58.835
being
779
00:53:59.135 --> 00:53:59.635
primarily
780
00:54:00.175 --> 00:54:01.315
worked on and maintained
781
00:54:01.935 --> 00:54:10.540
by, like, people you can count on one hand. Like, it it's insane. And I don't know what the the funding, the revenue model solution is.
782
00:54:11.160 --> 00:54:12.220
I mean, I'm currently
783
00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:15.900
community funded to do my full time seed signer work,
784
00:54:16.405 --> 00:54:16.905
but
785
00:54:17.205 --> 00:54:18.025
it's also
786
00:54:18.805 --> 00:54:20.345
meant to be short term.
787
00:54:20.645 --> 00:54:24.020
Like, I had this window of opportunity make donations work.
788
00:54:24.500 --> 00:54:31.240
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I can't I can't plan the next, you know, year or 2 or 3 of my life around being community funded,
789
00:54:31.795 --> 00:54:37.015
but I was able to carve out, hey. I can do the next 3 months. And if the money runs out after that,
790
00:54:37.315 --> 00:54:39.735
okay, then I go find a normie job.
791
00:54:40.890 --> 00:54:44.590
But just these these super important projects are run by so few people
792
00:54:45.290 --> 00:54:51.105
with, you know, shoestring or nonexistent budgets. It's it's it's mind boggling. Like, it it
793
00:54:52.065 --> 00:54:58.405
I when I think about it, it makes me feel like the space is a little more vulnerable than we realize.
794
00:54:58.730 --> 00:55:02.589
795
00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:04.109
Well, first off,
796
00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:09.914
Maurice, you failed the question earlier. If people wanna donate to Spectre, you go to donate dotspector.solutions,
797
00:55:11.895 --> 00:55:15.434
to support them. Consider supporting them if you like,
798
00:55:16.369 --> 00:55:18.069
if if if you like their software.
799
00:55:20.130 --> 00:55:21.430
The second thing is,
800
00:55:21.730 --> 00:55:24.789
you know, Keith, like, I I think what's really cool
801
00:55:25.125 --> 00:55:32.185
about Bitcoin, and I I find it it's a very interesting subtopic of Bitcoin, is this is this idea of monetizing,
802
00:55:32.885 --> 00:55:34.265
free and open source projects.
803
00:55:34.780 --> 00:55:37.840
Because Bitcoin, all of a sudden, brings in these
804
00:55:38.220 --> 00:55:39.280
these new possibilities
805
00:55:39.580 --> 00:55:40.800
in terms of actually,
806
00:55:41.580 --> 00:55:44.674
monetizing without integrating, you know, 3rd party companies or,
807
00:55:46.494 --> 00:55:53.154
centralized third parties, like, taking donations via Stripe. So, like, as much as the donation model is probably not sustainable,
808
00:55:54.240 --> 00:56:02.580
it's definitely way more practical in a post Bitcoin world because, you know, you're just spinning up a BTC pay server or something. People can pay you with any Bitcoin wallet,
809
00:56:03.825 --> 00:56:06.325
without KYC, without a centralized third party.
810
00:56:07.025 --> 00:56:08.725
But then on top of that,
811
00:56:09.105 --> 00:56:11.445
some of these models that are being tested out,
812
00:56:12.750 --> 00:56:14.850
and you mentioned Sparrow, you know,
813
00:56:15.230 --> 00:56:17.330
Craig has a public donation page,
814
00:56:17.790 --> 00:56:20.930
which everyone should go support him as well if you like Sparrow.
815
00:56:21.935 --> 00:56:23.235
I have supported him.
816
00:56:24.655 --> 00:56:29.155
The but he's also now making money from his CoinJoin integration,
817
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.299
And that is a a a actual very sustainable
818
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:34.500
business model
819
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:37.059
where when you do Coin Joins,
820
00:56:38.125 --> 00:56:41.825
when you do coin join transactions, when you do these collaborative Bitcoin transactions,
821
00:56:43.085 --> 00:56:45.744
in Sparrow Wallet, there's a fee that is paid,
822
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:50.180
and he gets a portion of it and the samurai wallet devs get a portion of it,
823
00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:54.420
purely in Bitcoin. Right? So he has this Bitcoin treasury that is basically,
824
00:56:55.744 --> 00:56:57.765
accumulating there. And, presumably,
825
00:56:58.065 --> 00:56:59.285
if he doesn't have,
826
00:56:59.984 --> 00:57:14.535
other open source contributors come in at the goodness of their heart to start contributing, he can start paying people. And that's another thing, by the way. Like, if you are a programmer, consider you know, Spectre is free free and open source software. Consider going to their GitHub. Consider contributing. Consider review.
827
00:57:15.395 --> 00:57:19.174
I'm sure Maritz and the rest of the team over there would appreciate it. So
828
00:57:19.620 --> 00:57:24.020
829
00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:25.560
coin join implementations.
830
00:57:25.860 --> 00:57:27.960
We are in discussions there for
831
00:57:28.835 --> 00:57:31.255
join my cut web UI where some
832
00:57:31.715 --> 00:57:35.655
some something is happening with with Jigigi and, Dennis Ryman.
833
00:57:36.080 --> 00:57:38.740
834
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:42.340
The HRF I helped set up a bounty with HRF.
835
00:57:43.520 --> 00:57:46.095
If if whoever comes up with
836
00:57:46.395 --> 00:57:48.635
the the web UI for join market gets,
837
00:57:49.515 --> 00:57:55.250
I think we're at, like, a half a Bitcoin, but don't quote me on it. I mean, join market on Whirlpool would be really cool.
838
00:57:56.190 --> 00:58:01.825
839
00:58:02.365 --> 00:58:02.865
generate
840
00:58:03.645 --> 00:58:05.345
Bitcoin yields by providing
841
00:58:05.805 --> 00:58:06.704
market making
842
00:58:07.085 --> 00:58:15.670
liquidity to the to the joint market. So I think that that was really cool. But we are sort of in this whole coin joint war, especially between
843
00:58:16.050 --> 00:58:18.870
Whirlpool and Vazavi, we we try to be
844
00:58:19.305 --> 00:58:21.405
neutral, and we are looking at the different
845
00:58:21.705 --> 00:58:22.925
implementations there.
846
00:58:24.265 --> 00:58:34.369
It's a bit it's a bit difficult. And we also, like, joined the hardware wallet war. So in overall, in the hardware wallet, it's like we do respect that DIY, but for us, it was always
847
00:58:34.775 --> 00:58:37.095
we wanna keep out of the these,
848
00:58:37.815 --> 00:58:42.475
hardware wallet wars. And we we want to be very constructive and and and,
849
00:58:42.809 --> 00:58:47.549
like, contributing to the space and not, like, get into Twitter or flame wars there.
850
00:58:48.089 --> 00:58:48.589
So
851
00:58:48.890 --> 00:58:51.230
and that's why we also added, like,
852
00:58:51.965 --> 00:58:52.465
all,
853
00:58:53.645 --> 00:59:00.305
all hardware wallets which have reasonable traction in in in the space and are, like, not like a full shitcoin thing
854
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:05.539
only or something. So we we try to to to to
855
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.059
to be the neutral there. I would love to see a Vazavi
856
00:59:09.525 --> 00:59:10.345
end of it, Whirlpool,
857
00:59:11.205 --> 00:59:22.910
integration there. I think was a 2.0 is coming up with something there. So we would be interested in that. Plan your plan of attack is to integrate all 3, join market, Whirlpool, and Wasabi?
858
00:59:23.370 --> 00:59:26.030
Then let the market decide, and then you can Whirlpool
859
00:59:26.885 --> 00:59:32.825
first and wasabi later and join market finally until you have coin joint yourself out of all your Bitcoin.
860
00:59:33.525 --> 00:59:38.289
861
00:59:38.910 --> 00:59:40.130
Options are good.
862
00:59:40.509 --> 00:59:41.650
Bitcoin Bitcoiners,
863
00:59:42.109 --> 00:59:45.105
should be happy they have more options, and they should choose the ones
864
00:59:47.425 --> 00:59:49.685
that, fit their particular situation best.
865
00:59:50.705 --> 00:59:53.765
But, yeah, I think Coin Sword specifically is a very interesting
866
00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:55.740
revenue model for
867
00:59:56.280 --> 01:00:00.700
especially because, you know, you kill 2 birds with 1 stone. You're able to bring in revenue for you,
868
01:00:01.160 --> 01:00:03.260
but you're improving the privacy of your users.
869
01:00:04.345 --> 01:00:08.925
870
01:00:09.704 --> 01:00:10.825
integrated first,
871
01:00:11.224 --> 01:00:13.244
with Swan Bitcoin now. So you can
872
01:00:13.770 --> 01:00:17.710
stack directly from Swan Bitcoin into your Specter Wallet. And,
873
01:00:18.410 --> 01:00:18.910
we
874
01:00:19.370 --> 01:00:20.670
we we got some
875
01:00:20.995 --> 01:00:23.495
pushback on on Twitter. So that.
876
01:00:23.955 --> 01:00:27.095
And, people were saying, hey. You're an open source
877
01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.340
wallet here. How do you square this with integrating
878
01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:35.340
a KYC company like like Swan Bitcoin?
879
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:36.460
And
880
01:00:37.805 --> 01:00:42.545
I think on a on a larger picture here is, like, we started working with Swan,
881
01:00:43.485 --> 01:00:49.660
4 months ago, 5 months ago, 4 months ago, and it really helped us a lot to build, like, this extension
882
01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:51.099
and and tool,
883
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:55.085
this extension system, which we can now use to,
884
01:00:55.545 --> 01:01:00.845
add coin joints and coin market in. And it was really great working with Pablo
885
01:01:01.210 --> 01:01:06.990
and with Jan from from Swan there and to see how they do things. And and and and through this
886
01:01:07.450 --> 01:01:14.055
building experience, we we came to our extension model there. And on the bigger picture, I would say, is that
887
01:01:15.395 --> 01:01:24.320
on the one side, as Bitcoiners, we want to hyper Bitcoinize as as fast and and defund all this clown world around us. So we want to have fast adoption.
888
01:01:24.705 --> 01:01:26.725
And on the other side, we want to be we
889
01:01:27.265 --> 01:01:29.285
want to see no KYC.
890
01:01:29.665 --> 01:01:30.065
And,
891
01:01:31.505 --> 01:01:33.765
and if you talk no KYC, I mean,
892
01:01:34.980 --> 01:01:37.960
of course, you can go with your couple of 1,000,
893
01:01:38.819 --> 01:01:48.845
euros to your local meetup. And if you are in Germany and the country is relatively safe, you can go to your local meetup and you know your buddies there and you maybe somebody wants to sell. And
894
01:01:49.465 --> 01:02:01.240
you can do that, or you can go to Bisco and you can go to to Huddl Huddl or something like this. But I think we will have very slow adoption if we if you if everybody would do no KYC.
895
01:02:01.855 --> 01:02:06.755
896
01:02:07.855 --> 01:02:10.755
and I'm torn on it personally. I mean, I
897
01:02:11.190 --> 01:02:15.290
am probably one of the more outspoken people in the space about the dangers of KYC.
898
01:02:16.230 --> 01:02:19.850
This idea that regulated Bitcoin companies are keeping lists of Bitcoiners
899
01:02:20.515 --> 01:02:24.695
and our transaction history. They're keeping those lists forever. They're sharing those lists.
900
01:02:25.075 --> 01:02:27.815
They're storing them in securely. Maybe they get stolen,
901
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:30.500
used by criminals,
902
01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:35.380
used by governments for political persecution like we're seeing in Canada right now.
903
01:02:36.425 --> 01:02:38.205
But at the same time, I,
904
01:02:38.825 --> 01:02:40.045
am a man of nuance,
905
01:02:40.665 --> 01:02:45.245
and I understand a lot of people are going to be coming in, through regulated on ramps.
906
01:02:47.090 --> 01:03:02.815
So, I mean, I I think there's a the multi pronged approach there. I think, 1st and foremost, you know, we should be obvious about the trade offs and risks there because most newcomers coming into the space do not even understand that there's trade offs or risks, so they can't make an informed decision to begin with.
907
01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:05.260
And then secondly,
908
01:03:06.040 --> 01:03:13.155
like, little things. Like, we see newcomers come in. They KYC with, like, 10 different services. They send their ID to 10 different companies
909
01:03:13.695 --> 01:03:14.994
in 8 different countries,
910
01:03:16.255 --> 01:03:19.234
just immediately and sign up for every service under the sun.
911
01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:23.660
Just like limiting your KYC exposure to maybe one on ramp,
912
01:03:24.040 --> 01:03:29.955
you know, and then never, you know, never KYC ing with another service besides that using forward privacy tools.
913
01:03:30.915 --> 01:03:34.615
So I'm a little bit torn on this debate because, actually,
914
01:03:36.869 --> 01:03:38.569
I was one of the people
915
01:03:39.510 --> 01:03:45.049
one of the most outspoken people pushing SWAN in this direction, which is this idea that
916
01:03:45.934 --> 01:03:48.994
a onramp that is regulated has a,
917
01:03:50.414 --> 01:03:50.914
responsibility
918
01:03:51.295 --> 01:03:52.275
to their users
919
01:03:52.710 --> 01:03:54.250
to make a UX flow
920
01:03:54.710 --> 01:04:00.970
that reduces their risk to KYC as much as possible. And what do I mean by that? I mean, Swan has auto
921
01:04:02.705 --> 01:04:06.325
auto buys. Right? So it's it's auto stacking instead of trading.
922
01:04:07.345 --> 01:04:35.750
So you're averaging in over time. The volatility isn't hitting you. Then they have auto withdrawals. And then but the problem with the auto withdrawals the nice thing about auto withdrawals is you don't have you have reduced custodial risk. The problem was the easiest way for them to integrate it was a fixed reused address. So anyone on chain could see that the same address was receiving, you you know, maybe $50 worth of Bitcoin a week or a $100 worth of Bitcoin a week, and they could basically assume that someone there was doing an auto DCA
923
01:04:36.370 --> 01:04:37.510
probably with Swan
924
01:04:37.905 --> 01:04:39.285
for a $100 a week,
925
01:04:40.065 --> 01:04:41.845
and was leaking all this information.
926
01:04:42.385 --> 01:04:49.950
So then where do you go from there? Well, you can you can integrate PayNIMs, which would be awesome, which is what I wanted them to do, or you can integrate
927
01:04:50.730 --> 01:04:51.230
XPUBs.
928
01:04:52.250 --> 01:04:59.385
So they came up with this XPUB tool that was an open source, locally done xPub tool where you put your xPub in instead of the xPub going to their servers.
929
01:05:01.125 --> 01:05:09.450
It it sends, like, the next ten addresses or something, but that was clunky. Most people weren't using it. Right? So enter the Spectre integration,
930
01:05:10.069 --> 01:05:11.690
which is this idea that,
931
01:05:12.914 --> 01:05:15.335
you open Spectre, you create a
932
01:05:16.194 --> 01:05:20.934
I I I guess you can either create a new wallet or you can link it with an existing wallet,
933
01:05:21.690 --> 01:05:23.390
and it sends 10 addresses
934
01:05:23.849 --> 01:05:26.589
10 fresh addresses that haven't been used to Swan.
935
01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:28.109
And then as,
936
01:05:30.744 --> 01:05:32.605
and then it reserves them within
937
01:05:33.065 --> 01:05:33.565
Spector's,
938
01:05:34.825 --> 01:05:41.840
UI, so you don't reuse them because you don't want you don't wanna use an address that is already linked to a KYC exchange.
939
01:05:43.500 --> 01:05:44.000
And
940
01:05:45.255 --> 01:05:48.315
on top of that, it doesn't have to be a hot wallet. It could be,
941
01:05:50.454 --> 01:05:55.559
it it can be a hardware wallet. It could be a multisig. It could be whatever wallet you're using in Spectre.
942
01:05:55.940 --> 01:06:01.319
So it is a evolution in terms of, you know, the UX and flow of
943
01:06:03.585 --> 01:06:08.085
of of using a KYC service. So it's obviously a benefit there,
944
01:06:09.780 --> 01:06:13.560
but you do have this inherent KYC risk that comes with it.
945
01:06:13.940 --> 01:06:18.360
So, I mean, first of all, I was gonna get Maurits' opinion, but he conveniently
946
01:06:20.164 --> 01:06:27.944
disconnected. I think his Internet probably cut. Hopefully, he'll join us soon. So while we're waiting for Maritz, Maritz just came back and joined us.
947
01:06:29.510 --> 01:06:31.210
And then Maritz, I was just explaining
948
01:06:31.670 --> 01:06:33.930
basically the flow and the different trade offs.
949
01:06:37.194 --> 01:06:48.520
I Keith, what is I mean, Keith, I know you've been working you helped work on this integration. Like, what is, like, what is your opinion here? Where do you where do you, like, how do you what's your perspective on this?
950
01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:50.440
951
01:06:50.740 --> 01:06:55.315
I I I totally respect the the no KYC or limit your KYC
952
01:06:55.695 --> 01:06:56.195
maximalism.
953
01:06:57.855 --> 01:07:00.675
I would describe myself as a pragmatist
954
01:07:01.055 --> 01:07:01.555
maximalist.
955
01:07:04.250 --> 01:07:04.750
And
956
01:07:05.450 --> 01:07:07.790
so for existing Swan users,
957
01:07:08.730 --> 01:07:09.790
the Spectre integration
958
01:07:10.515 --> 01:07:17.335
is a 100% a better experience and and better for their privacy. Because as you said so there the Swan,
959
01:07:18.180 --> 01:07:21.320
the normal Swan XPUB route is
960
01:07:22.100 --> 01:07:24.360
you submit your XPUB to them.
961
01:07:25.460 --> 01:07:27.160
Now they say it stays
962
01:07:27.515 --> 01:07:31.055
in your browser and your I I guess your browser calculates,
963
01:07:31.675 --> 01:07:32.735
you know, a 100
964
01:07:33.195 --> 01:07:40.550
965
01:07:40.930 --> 01:07:43.650
966
01:07:44.444 --> 01:07:49.105
it was a huge number, like, maybe, like, I don't know, 500 or something. Because I asked him what happens when,
967
01:07:49.484 --> 01:07:52.224
you run out of addresses and you need to reload.
968
01:07:52.640 --> 01:07:56.340
And he's like, that hasn't happened yet because they they send so many,
969
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:57.700
over the wire.
970
01:07:59.120 --> 01:08:04.775
So so in this case and and look. You know, I wanna be I wanna be super clear. Like,
971
01:08:05.155 --> 01:08:11.950
Jan gets all of this too. Right? It's not like he's, like, greedily trying to scoop up your your private info. Like,
972
01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:15.790
he's a good actor. He's doing everything he can from his side
973
01:08:16.250 --> 01:08:17.870
working for a KYC
974
01:08:18.410 --> 01:08:19.005
on ramp,
975
01:08:19.725 --> 01:08:26.465
to limit those those touch points. And I think, you know, he's he's doing, like, a very good
976
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:30.180
admiral job admirable job even if you find
977
01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:31.380
that, like,
978
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:34.180
philosophical side of the fence disagreeable.
979
01:08:35.440 --> 01:08:36.260
But, anyway,
980
01:08:36.705 --> 01:08:43.525
with the Spectre integration, like you said, we're only sending 10 addresses at most. And then each time you sign in to Spectre,
981
01:08:43.985 --> 01:08:45.025
it checks your
982
01:08:45.580 --> 01:08:48.960
essentially, your address balance. How many how many are still outstanding?
983
01:08:49.420 --> 01:08:57.495
And it tops you up if you've received, you know, 3 auto withdrawals. And since the last time you opened Spectre, it sends 3 more to, to Swan.
984
01:08:58.995 --> 01:09:03.255
So at any one point in time, Swan only has 10 of your future addresses.
985
01:09:04.115 --> 01:09:04.615
And
986
01:09:05.950 --> 01:09:11.890
the the previous XPUB method only worked for single sig. So it's a huge upgrade
987
01:09:12.255 --> 01:09:20.995
to be able to use your own multisig cold storage. I mean, this could be your your ice cold vault that, you know, you have to travel to 5 different countries to to spend from,
988
01:09:21.350 --> 01:09:23.850
and you can be stacking to that,
989
01:09:24.630 --> 01:09:29.610
from Swan without any, you know, hardware wallet or or, messing with your your
990
01:09:30.235 --> 01:09:30.735
storage.
991
01:09:31.275 --> 01:09:32.494
992
01:09:33.514 --> 01:09:38.014
993
01:09:38.474 --> 01:09:42.900
994
01:09:43.360 --> 01:09:48.260
KYC if you're gonna KYC, it's probably the best KYC flow that exists right now. Right?
995
01:09:48.675 --> 01:09:53.335
996
01:09:53.795 --> 01:09:55.895
I haven't used the Whirlpool
997
01:09:56.275 --> 01:09:57.495
integration with Sparrow,
998
01:09:57.990 --> 01:09:58.490
but
999
01:09:59.030 --> 01:10:03.530
I kinda feel like you should be able to have the exact same parallel wallet
1000
01:10:03.990 --> 01:10:08.365
in Spector and in Sparrow. And so when your Swan deposits come in,
1001
01:10:08.905 --> 01:10:17.230
you could just you could see them come in on the Spector side, but then open the identical wallet in Sparrow and say, hey. You know what? I wanna coinjoin those, and you've got it right there.
1002
01:10:18.650 --> 01:10:20.909
1003
01:10:21.610 --> 01:10:24.830
thing, which is, you know, Maurice is talking about integrating CoinJoin.
1004
01:10:25.845 --> 01:10:28.585
The real if you wanna talk about the real ideal
1005
01:10:29.285 --> 01:10:30.505
KYC flow,
1006
01:10:30.805 --> 01:10:33.065
we're gonna talk about is is
1007
01:10:33.780 --> 01:10:38.360
this idea that you have a hot wallet. You create a new Swan wallet inspector
1008
01:10:39.059 --> 01:10:40.599
that is only for
1009
01:10:41.185 --> 01:10:41.685
Swan,
1010
01:10:42.385 --> 01:10:47.284
you get auto withdrawals to that wallet in in fresh addresses,
1011
01:10:48.145 --> 01:10:50.324
and then it automatically coin joins.
1012
01:10:51.080 --> 01:10:58.220
And then from after it does a couple coin join rounds, you know, the user sets how many rounds they want, then it goes to your multisig cold storage
1013
01:10:58.595 --> 01:11:01.415
that's across 5 different continents. That would be,
1014
01:11:02.675 --> 01:11:07.815
like, the best flow in terms of minimizing KYC risk while still using a regulated
1015
01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:08.680
entity.
1016
01:11:09.220 --> 01:11:15.000
1017
01:11:16.094 --> 01:11:19.074
that that would be ready to go right now. Make it happy, Keith.
1018
01:11:20.415 --> 01:11:20.915
Well,
1019
01:11:21.375 --> 01:11:25.110
you know, in terms of so here's a pitch. In terms of funding,
1020
01:11:25.650 --> 01:11:26.150
like,
1021
01:11:27.170 --> 01:11:30.150
you know, there's like, Spectre is a tiny team.
1022
01:11:32.875 --> 01:11:33.534
Like, the
1023
01:11:34.315 --> 01:11:35.935
and I'm struggling to understand
1024
01:11:36.795 --> 01:11:47.200
the Whirlpool ecosystem. I've used it. I I get how the tools work, but just the I've been struggling to figure out what we would have to do to actually integrate with with Whirlpool.
1025
01:11:47.740 --> 01:11:56.074
And so for sure, at at some point, I'm gonna just have to have conversations with with the samurai devs and to understand this better. And with Craig because he just did it.
1026
01:11:56.455 --> 01:11:58.795
Right. Right. But but I think,
1027
01:11:59.880 --> 01:12:04.940
Craig had a little bit of an easier time because Sparrow is Java. Correct. And then the
1028
01:12:05.320 --> 01:12:09.805
the Whirlpool client that you can run on your own node is also Java.
1029
01:12:10.585 --> 01:12:11.245
And so,
1030
01:12:11.545 --> 01:12:13.725
essentially, my understanding is that Sparrow
1031
01:12:14.425 --> 01:12:17.485
is replacing the role of that local
1032
01:12:17.790 --> 01:12:22.369
Java Whirlpool client that you would run, you know, that you can, like, one click install from from Umbrel.
1033
01:12:24.110 --> 01:12:24.610
And
1034
01:12:25.015 --> 01:12:34.554
and not not that it was just a copy and paste job, but, like, you know, Java to Java, he he knows how to read that code. He can kind of absorb it and and alter whatever. Made it easier.
1035
01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:35.739
Yeah.
1036
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:40.380
Or use even some some existing libraries maybe if they're any of them are open sourced.
1037
01:12:41.079 --> 01:12:43.500
But, basically, we need a Python implementation
1038
01:12:44.455 --> 01:12:52.315
of a client that can talk to the Whirlpool servers. And as far as I know, that doesn't exist. It should exist.
1039
01:12:52.800 --> 01:13:03.925
If we have to build it, we will. I want to build it. But, like, you know, right now, I'm full time seed signer. And then when I feel like I've accomplished enough during my day,
1040
01:13:04.545 --> 01:13:13.370
I set that aside and, like, okay. Cool. What do I wanna do inspector now? You know? Or it's, like, Saturday or Sunday. Right? Like, this is what I do for fun in my free time
1041
01:13:13.990 --> 01:13:17.930
on top of my, like, quote, full time job with with Seed Signer.
1042
01:13:19.185 --> 01:13:20.805
But if somebody out there
1043
01:13:21.345 --> 01:13:25.045
has the Python skills to build a Python
1044
01:13:25.425 --> 01:13:25.925
Whirlpool
1045
01:13:26.305 --> 01:13:26.805
client,
1046
01:13:27.480 --> 01:13:31.580
hell yeah. Bring it on. Like, we'll we'll integrate that sucker as fast as we can.
1047
01:13:33.160 --> 01:13:35.020
1048
01:13:35.480 --> 01:13:39.864
the plan going forward is that we the the flow you just described on the
1049
01:13:40.585 --> 01:13:42.364
from stacking into your,
1050
01:13:43.305 --> 01:13:48.380
coin joint cold storage is this. This is actually the flow we wanna go towards because this is also
1051
01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:55.905
it's not perfectly in terms of no k y c because it's not that you buy it peer to peer on a meetup or a conference or
1052
01:13:57.085 --> 01:14:03.190
1053
01:14:03.570 --> 01:14:17.755
1054
01:14:18.290 --> 01:14:18.790
1055
01:14:19.730 --> 01:14:20.389
1056
01:14:20.690 --> 01:14:26.790
I think going forward, when the state really understands that the money is is not under his control anymore
1057
01:14:27.225 --> 01:14:28.685
And as we see in Canada,
1058
01:14:29.065 --> 01:14:30.605
I would expect, like,
1059
01:14:31.545 --> 01:14:40.079
I would expect, like, the this this Fintrack thing there in Canada come to Bull Bitcoin and tell Francis, like, okay. We want to have a list of all your customers,
1060
01:14:40.699 --> 01:14:44.320
all the email addresses, and we want to know to which Yep. To which addresses
1061
01:14:44.695 --> 01:14:49.595
these Bitcoin come to. So this is what I would expect, not only in Canada, but worldwide.
1062
01:14:50.215 --> 01:14:52.955
Especially when the when the gains are too too high
1063
01:14:53.255 --> 01:15:07.665
and, like, the climate change, fraud is coming, and then you have to pay a climate change solidarity tax on your Bitcoin and and about the time you huddled it. And then they look at these addresses, and they will go to the channel analysis
1064
01:15:08.045 --> 01:15:08.945
and just check,
1065
01:15:09.805 --> 01:15:10.305
okay.
1066
01:15:11.540 --> 01:15:14.920
This has hopped 1, 2, or 3 times. We
1067
01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:18.840
have we assume that you have x amount of Bitcoin.
1068
01:15:19.445 --> 01:15:20.565
Please, send,
1069
01:15:21.205 --> 01:15:22.885
10% of these to this,
1070
01:15:24.565 --> 01:15:25.385
tax authority
1071
01:15:25.685 --> 01:15:35.130
Bitcoin address. Thank you very much. This is what I expect to come. And then you can choose if you want to keep sitting in Germany where the German supreme court already has
1072
01:15:35.534 --> 01:15:36.034
basically,
1073
01:15:36.815 --> 01:15:37.315
waived
1074
01:15:38.574 --> 01:15:44.114
climate change lockdowns and insanity, and the European Union is setting up a European asset registry.
1075
01:15:44.970 --> 01:15:49.950
And if you wanna do that, okay, you can sit in Germany and then you pay 20% on your,
1076
01:15:51.370 --> 01:16:05.570
corona tax or climate change tax. Or you say, okay. I'm gonna pack up, and I'm going to El Salvador or Mexico or move to Paraguay and Panama or whatever. So this is this is the choice that's coming up for a lot of people over the next 5 years.
1077
01:16:07.630 --> 01:16:11.385
Or you're buying no you or you're buying okay with you at your local Bitcoin meetup?
1078
01:16:12.824 --> 01:16:14.585
1079
01:16:15.385 --> 01:16:18.364
there's a lot of no k y there's a lot of discussions
1080
01:16:18.824 --> 01:16:19.965
on on dispatch.
1081
01:16:20.510 --> 01:16:25.489
Freaks who haven't listened to them in the past can go back. I mean, I'm not gonna list episode numbers because,
1082
01:16:26.030 --> 01:16:33.185
there's been you know, this is this is dispatch 56, and maybe we've talked about the trade offs of k y c and, like, 40 of them
1083
01:16:33.645 --> 01:16:34.680
45 of them.
1084
01:16:35.240 --> 01:16:41.180
So go listen to the archives. I mean, you can mine, you can you can earn Bitcoin, you can spend Bitcoin,
1085
01:16:42.040 --> 01:16:42.860
rather than
1086
01:16:43.435 --> 01:16:46.895
buying or selling Bitcoin. But let's keep talking about this,
1087
01:16:47.514 --> 01:16:51.054
this Swan integration because you guys have gotten a lot of pushback on it.
1088
01:16:52.300 --> 01:16:54.320
First of all, it is optional. Right?
1089
01:16:56.220 --> 01:16:57.920
I I assume it's a monetization
1090
01:16:58.460 --> 01:17:01.840
method as well. Right? Like, you get a kickback with the Swan integration?
1091
01:17:02.525 --> 01:17:03.645
1092
01:17:04.205 --> 01:17:06.465
Swan Bitcoin has a referral system.
1093
01:17:06.845 --> 01:17:11.185
And, if our use like, if it's a if a Spectre user comes
1094
01:17:11.510 --> 01:17:13.050
and signs up for the service
1095
01:17:13.590 --> 01:17:18.330
through the Spectre referral link, he can support the Spectre there as we
1096
01:17:18.870 --> 01:17:20.970
are getting a cut out of the fees there.
1097
01:17:21.355 --> 01:17:21.755
And,
1098
01:17:22.155 --> 01:17:26.095
this is how we how we are moving forward, we,
1099
01:17:27.195 --> 01:17:28.655
plan to support
1100
01:17:29.150 --> 01:17:33.490
better wallet development and a bigger developer team to keep the the free default
1101
01:17:34.270 --> 01:17:41.065
system really well, like, really well set up. So this is, also a monetization. Like like,
1102
01:17:41.365 --> 01:17:46.585
you need you need to make money. You have to pay your bills, and you have to pay your developers, and
1103
01:17:47.220 --> 01:17:49.720
people have to pay rent somehow.
1104
01:17:51.620 --> 01:17:52.120
1105
01:17:53.780 --> 01:17:54.840
So, I mean,
1106
01:17:56.455 --> 01:18:01.815
right right before you guys integrated Swan I by the way, Keith, in response to my,
1107
01:18:03.310 --> 01:18:05.010
to the dispatch we did,
1108
01:18:05.630 --> 01:18:06.930
where we were discussing,
1109
01:18:09.150 --> 01:18:12.545
we were discussing your recent integration. I think it was,
1110
01:18:13.805 --> 01:18:14.785
CD 53
1111
01:18:15.725 --> 01:18:16.225
with
1112
01:18:16.845 --> 01:18:18.225
Carmen and Tony.
1113
01:18:19.870 --> 01:18:30.315
You mentioned that you were adding some kind of, like, warning tooltip that it's a KYC service and it comes with, you know, privacy risks. Did that ever get added? That ever get merged?
1114
01:18:30.855 --> 01:18:31.835
1115
01:18:32.215 --> 01:18:36.875
I don't think there's been a new release. So it would be something like a 1.8dot
1116
01:18:37.300 --> 01:18:38.600
2. I think 1.8.1
1117
01:18:39.060 --> 01:18:44.280
is the current release. So whatever the next either minor or major releases, that'll be included.
1118
01:18:45.364 --> 01:18:45.864
1119
01:18:47.525 --> 01:18:51.385
I love to see when open Bitcoin discussion results in
1120
01:18:53.070 --> 01:18:53.970
improved product,
1121
01:18:54.910 --> 01:18:59.150
improved projects. It's it's really good to see. I mean, like I said, I think the number one thing,
1122
01:19:00.225 --> 01:19:06.805
when it comes to the risk of KYC is that these trade offs are disclosed, that users are aware that they can make their own decision. I mean, Bitcoin,
1123
01:19:07.980 --> 01:19:14.160
and the open source movement in general to me is a freedom movement. It's a movement of personal responsibility. It's a movement where,
1124
01:19:14.805 --> 01:19:15.305
ultimately,
1125
01:19:15.925 --> 01:19:23.305
you're gonna have many options available to you, and users should make their own informed decision on how they want to proceed. But right before,
1126
01:19:23.990 --> 01:19:25.770
you guys integrated Swan,
1127
01:19:27.350 --> 01:19:29.290
there was the AOPP
1128
01:19:29.670 --> 01:19:31.370
debate on Bitcoin Twitter.
1129
01:19:31.935 --> 01:19:35.315
AOPP is the Address Ownership Proof Protocol.
1130
01:19:36.895 --> 01:19:38.035
It was designed,
1131
01:19:39.130 --> 01:19:41.469
based on Swiss compliance rules,
1132
01:19:41.929 --> 01:19:49.425
based on the travel rule, which FAFSA pushed the travel rule. FAFSA is an unelected bureaucratic organization globally,
1133
01:19:50.284 --> 01:19:54.360
that doesn't actually pass laws, but they have a bunch of member countries and they make,
1134
01:19:55.239 --> 01:19:56.860
these very strong worded,
1135
01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:02.695
suggestions like they did with the travel rule, and then they leave it up to individual countries to implement them.
1136
01:20:03.655 --> 01:20:06.635
Switzerland went above and beyond and said that any person,
1137
01:20:07.255 --> 01:20:08.795
using a regulated Swiss,
1138
01:20:09.494 --> 01:20:10.554
Bitcoin exchange
1139
01:20:11.280 --> 01:20:16.739
needs to sign their withdrawal addresses. Signing a withdrawal address is a native Bitcoin function.
1140
01:20:17.679 --> 01:20:23.675
It's a very cool function. It's a way of proving you have ownership of an address or you have control over an address,
1141
01:20:24.695 --> 01:20:25.835
in a verifiable
1142
01:20:26.135 --> 01:20:29.530
way that is very easy for anyone to verify around the world,
1143
01:20:30.230 --> 01:20:32.810
without exact without exposing your private keys.
1144
01:20:33.270 --> 01:20:34.090
This is what
1145
01:20:35.475 --> 01:20:37.155
many of us have been saying that,
1146
01:20:38.355 --> 01:20:39.815
Craig Wright should do,
1147
01:20:40.275 --> 01:20:44.215
to prove at least to give some benefit of the doubt that he's Satoshi's,
1148
01:20:44.690 --> 01:20:51.110
you know, signed some early keys that that people presume belong to Satoshi. He refuses to do it because he's a fraud,
1149
01:20:51.489 --> 01:20:51.989
but,
1150
01:20:53.085 --> 01:20:57.505
AOPP was this idea that let's make this signing process easier,
1151
01:20:58.285 --> 01:21:01.505
integrate it into wallets. So instead of going through,
1152
01:21:02.190 --> 01:21:04.290
a little bit more cumbersome of a process,
1153
01:21:04.750 --> 01:21:09.410
to sign an address because a lot of wallets already offer that functionality, including Bitcoin Core,
1154
01:21:11.955 --> 01:21:13.895
make it easier and make it standardized.
1155
01:21:14.915 --> 01:21:17.095
There's a lot of pushback against it,
1156
01:21:17.635 --> 01:21:19.335
most notably because
1157
01:21:21.210 --> 01:21:27.310
a lot of big corners, I think myself included, don't think that we should go above and beyond to comply with burdensome regulation.
1158
01:21:28.745 --> 01:21:30.125
It just kind of solidifies,
1159
01:21:31.145 --> 01:21:37.245
that regulation rather than putting pressure on the individual companies to basically then go put pressure on their governments
1160
01:21:37.550 --> 01:21:42.050
to say, you're completely destroying our business model. If you make them comfortable, then,
1161
01:21:43.550 --> 01:21:47.645
they will just proceed and the regulation will get even more burdensome over time.
1162
01:21:48.985 --> 01:21:53.485
Well, like, what's your viewpoint on AOPP? I know Spectre does not have it integrated.
1163
01:21:54.480 --> 01:21:57.460
Do you have plans to integrate it? How how do you feel about it?
1164
01:21:58.320 --> 01:22:02.900
1165
01:22:03.705 --> 01:22:05.165
but we were
1166
01:22:05.625 --> 01:22:06.605
approached by
1167
01:22:07.224 --> 01:22:07.724
Lucas
1168
01:22:08.105 --> 01:22:11.965
Betchart, who's from 21 Analytics, and he's the,
1169
01:22:12.410 --> 01:22:16.830
I think, the head of the or, like, he's associate very closely to the Swiss Bitcoin.
1170
01:22:17.850 --> 01:22:21.310
1171
01:22:22.345 --> 01:22:22.845
1172
01:22:23.385 --> 01:22:25.565
they were both Swift companies,
1173
01:22:26.105 --> 01:22:28.265
and they approached us to to add this.
1174
01:22:28.905 --> 01:22:31.165
But I I looked at it and then,
1175
01:22:31.860 --> 01:22:33.000
yes, it's like
1176
01:22:33.699 --> 01:22:39.639
yeah. They they they're they're doing okay with the signing at that point, and I didn't like the whole smell about it. And
1177
01:22:40.034 --> 01:22:46.730
then also the user didn't demand it or that we didn't see a lot of push out of of Switzerland that all our users want to use it.
1178
01:22:47.690 --> 01:22:49.930
And I didn't like the dynamic about it that,
1179
01:22:50.890 --> 01:22:58.505
this travel rule is pushed on the exchanges, and then the user has to sign this. Like, the user should just give his Bitcoin address there
1180
01:23:00.165 --> 01:23:02.905
and click on withdraw. And and that's the
1181
01:23:03.205 --> 01:23:04.905
and that's the story, basically.
1182
01:23:05.280 --> 01:23:09.460
And there shouldn't be any signing circles and making things
1183
01:23:10.080 --> 01:23:12.335
more annoying from the UX side. And
1184
01:23:13.375 --> 01:23:18.114
so we have phone call or whatever. And but I sort of
1185
01:23:18.815 --> 01:23:25.139
we didn't move forward on that, to to put it politely, because we we didn't like it. And if you really start
1186
01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:27.599
thinking about this dynamic that,
1187
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:29.540
FATF is basically
1188
01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:30.980
picking up this
1189
01:23:31.655 --> 01:23:33.435
message signing thing here
1190
01:23:33.895 --> 01:23:34.395
and,
1191
01:23:35.655 --> 01:23:36.875
puts puts this
1192
01:23:37.175 --> 01:23:39.195
wraps this into his travel rule.
1193
01:23:39.540 --> 01:23:45.159
If you go down this road, then it becomes really slippery because, like, what happens if the regulators
1194
01:23:45.540 --> 01:23:51.625
then approach Sparrow or Spector and and pushes puts a lot of pressure on us that we have to
1195
01:23:54.164 --> 01:23:55.764
run these travel rule,
1196
01:23:56.324 --> 01:24:05.370
AOPP things by default. And, you know, default settings define long term user behavior. And all of a sudden, if I send Bitcoin to Keith, Keith has to
1197
01:24:06.445 --> 01:24:06.945
AOPP,
1198
01:24:07.405 --> 01:24:07.905
basically,
1199
01:24:08.525 --> 01:24:11.344
his his his address to me. And then
1200
01:24:11.965 --> 01:24:13.585
as a next level, if you
1201
01:24:13.910 --> 01:24:17.450
are when when we when when we go back to the Trezor and and ledger,
1202
01:24:18.310 --> 01:24:20.490
discussion, which I was bringing up before,
1203
01:24:21.190 --> 01:24:22.570
and everybody is KYC'd
1204
01:24:23.030 --> 01:24:23.530
ML,
1205
01:24:23.845 --> 01:24:28.405
then these infrastructures of Trezor and Ledger, they can feed this back into,
1206
01:24:29.045 --> 01:24:38.020
let's say, European asset registry or Fintrack system in the and and and we we we we we basically blow it all away. And,
1207
01:24:38.560 --> 01:24:43.695
like, will it become illegal to do a non AOPP compliant transaction? So
1208
01:24:45.035 --> 01:24:46.335
talking to, like, regulators
1209
01:24:46.715 --> 01:24:47.295
and Liechtenstein,
1210
01:24:49.810 --> 01:24:51.110
like, if you talk to these
1211
01:24:51.810 --> 01:24:55.510
KYC, AML sort of specialists and who talk to the regulators,
1212
01:24:55.890 --> 01:25:01.344
these people are, like, really, like, pretty crazy in my opinion because they really think that they can
1213
01:25:01.725 --> 01:25:05.025
press this kind of travel rule stuff into
1214
01:25:06.989 --> 01:25:08.929
into the the Bitcoin ecosystem.
1215
01:25:10.269 --> 01:25:14.050
And we have to take a stand there and say, like, okay.
1216
01:25:14.895 --> 01:25:29.530
And from right from the beginning, I think, is is is the way. Like, don't don't give them a little bit AOPP, and then it goes from Switzerland to Austria. And next, it's in Canada. And no. No. No. We have to be noncompliant here from from the get go.
1217
01:25:30.710 --> 01:25:31.530
1218
01:25:32.695 --> 01:25:34.074
so so to
1219
01:25:34.375 --> 01:25:36.475
to to to go from there,
1220
01:25:38.055 --> 01:25:38.955
our conversation
1221
01:25:39.574 --> 01:25:40.000
in
1222
01:25:40.480 --> 01:25:41.780
CD 53 was
1223
01:25:44.400 --> 01:25:46.020
and and this is where
1224
01:25:46.480 --> 01:25:49.140
I mean, you dropped out a little bit, but this is why
1225
01:25:50.255 --> 01:25:52.195
even though I originally pushed
1226
01:25:53.054 --> 01:25:53.554
for,
1227
01:25:53.935 --> 01:25:54.995
you know, Swan
1228
01:25:55.375 --> 01:25:59.890
making a easy flow for people to have auto with withdraw to their own addresses,
1229
01:26:02.990 --> 01:26:04.130
amid the AOPP
1230
01:26:04.430 --> 01:26:04.930
stuff.
1231
01:26:05.525 --> 01:26:08.825
How do you see the difference between your SWAN integration
1232
01:26:09.365 --> 01:26:10.505
versus AOPP?
1233
01:26:21.605 --> 01:26:23.225
1234
01:26:23.845 --> 01:26:24.905
the the AOPP
1235
01:26:26.165 --> 01:26:26.665
puts
1236
01:26:28.219 --> 01:26:30.560
a technology into your wallet
1237
01:26:31.420 --> 01:26:32.960
that makes it very convenient
1238
01:26:33.580 --> 01:26:39.025
to comply with the travel rule. And at the beginning, it's just withdrawing from the exchange,
1239
01:26:39.405 --> 01:26:42.065
and we don't have this with Swan. And
1240
01:26:44.530 --> 01:26:54.095
and it and it opens the door. If you have AOPP in there and other users have AOPP, you can sort of put it into the main
1241
01:26:55.115 --> 01:27:00.415
wallets out there. So and this is where things becomes really tricky in my opinion.
1242
01:27:01.250 --> 01:27:02.949
This is this is the key thing.
1243
01:27:03.329 --> 01:27:08.070
1244
01:27:08.685 --> 01:27:10.204
on 53 that,
1245
01:27:11.485 --> 01:27:12.784
that Keith basically
1246
01:27:13.165 --> 01:27:15.585
picked up on, and he listened to that conversation
1247
01:27:18.220 --> 01:27:20.060
to add, you know, that to the
1248
01:27:20.940 --> 01:27:24.160
an explanation of KYC trade offs to your integration.
1249
01:27:24.540 --> 01:27:29.215
But my thought process was and and to be perfectly clear, like, this was something, like, I was
1250
01:27:29.595 --> 01:27:32.335
you know, AOPP had just kind of happened.
1251
01:27:33.595 --> 01:27:36.015
Well, actually, AOPP was integrated by ShiftCrypto
1252
01:27:36.450 --> 01:27:37.350
in their BitBox,
1253
01:27:38.450 --> 01:27:39.910
last year at some point.
1254
01:27:40.290 --> 01:27:46.885
It just hit the news because Trezor was making a big deal about integrating it, then they rolled it back. But that's why,
1255
01:27:47.425 --> 01:27:52.725
the debate happened was Treasure released, like, a press release that said, we're super excited that we,
1256
01:27:53.480 --> 01:27:54.860
cucked over to regulators.
1257
01:27:56.599 --> 01:28:04.765
But, like, that conversation had just basically blown up on Bitcoin Twitter. Company, projects were pulling out of it. Companies were pulling out of it.
1258
01:28:05.465 --> 01:28:07.725
And then we had our conversation on dispatch.
1259
01:28:08.185 --> 01:28:10.285
And if you think about it, like so
1260
01:28:10.690 --> 01:28:16.950
first of all, AOPP is a flawed regulation to begin with, but I don't think that is even that relevant. But the reason it's flawed is because,
1261
01:28:18.554 --> 01:28:24.574
I when I withdraw, I can put in someone else's Bitcoin address. With AOPP, I can still do that. I can just have
1262
01:28:24.875 --> 01:28:33.769
Keith do the AOPP procedure for me, and then and then it goes to Keith. So it really doesn't solve anything. And, obviously, after you receive,
1263
01:28:34.389 --> 01:28:39.295
you can send it wherever you want to send. So it's it's a the purpose of that regulation,
1264
01:28:40.075 --> 01:28:44.335
it doesn't accomplish the purpose, which is this idea of proving ownership of the address.
1265
01:28:45.190 --> 01:28:50.330
But that doesn't really matter because regulators will continue to push burdensome regulation that doesn't actually
1266
01:28:50.949 --> 01:28:54.330
improve anything anyway. So I think that is is a kind of irrelevant
1267
01:28:55.335 --> 01:28:57.435
distinction. But, ultimately, the idea is
1268
01:28:57.895 --> 01:29:00.155
try and reduce the plausible deniability
1269
01:29:02.090 --> 01:29:04.830
of when you withdraw, whether or not you're paying someone
1270
01:29:05.690 --> 01:29:08.830
or if you're sending to your own storage,
1271
01:29:09.865 --> 01:29:15.645
because tracking Bitcoin is is a probability game. The whole the whole way these surveillance mercenaries,
1272
01:29:17.120 --> 01:29:19.860
these so called chain analysis companies, these
1273
01:29:20.240 --> 01:29:22.180
these chain surveillance firms,
1274
01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:27.505
operate is they're basically doing probability analysis on every Bitcoin transaction,
1275
01:29:28.205 --> 01:29:32.145
trying to decide if ownership has changed. Right? Because me, I could send
1276
01:29:32.605 --> 01:29:44.110
to myself to a new address over and over again, and they're basically determining, am I sending it to myself, or am I sending it to Keith? Am I buying something with it? Am I sending it to an exchange? They're trying to do the probability
1277
01:29:44.665 --> 01:29:48.205
of when that Bitcoin changes hands. That's the key to their whole,
1278
01:29:48.905 --> 01:29:56.990
model. And the and the the reverse there is the key to breaking their model is to make those probabilities so low that they really have no
1279
01:29:57.450 --> 01:30:04.015
they have no idea of of whether or not Bitcoin is changing hands. So if you if you operate under that,
1280
01:30:05.035 --> 01:30:05.535
framework,
1281
01:30:05.915 --> 01:30:08.335
the framework of reducing plausible deniability
1282
01:30:09.699 --> 01:30:10.679
in this integration
1283
01:30:12.260 --> 01:30:24.045
or even without this integration, just the way Swan works in general with the auto withdraw, if it's a reused address or if it's an ex pub, the plausible deniability is removed. Right? You can basically assume
1284
01:30:24.824 --> 01:30:26.605
that if someone is using
1285
01:30:27.390 --> 01:30:29.650
the auto withdrawal to a fresh address,
1286
01:30:31.550 --> 01:30:42.905
and I imagine some kind of data is exchanged because you're getting a kickback that that they're using Spectre, so so then you really know it's sending 10 new addresses from Spectre every time you load.
1287
01:30:43.380 --> 01:30:47.640
I mean, it is almost more effective than AOPP in proving
1288
01:30:49.460 --> 01:30:58.255
that, you know, that that it that it wasn't a payment to someone else, that it was that it is actually you taking taking control of over that Bitcoin. Right?
1289
01:30:59.180 --> 01:31:00.480
1290
01:31:00.780 --> 01:31:01.920
I I struggle to
1291
01:31:02.380 --> 01:31:04.320
to see that perspective because,
1292
01:31:04.700 --> 01:31:07.245
I mean, you're you're talking about the core
1293
01:31:07.705 --> 01:31:08.845
offering of Swan
1294
01:31:09.465 --> 01:31:13.885
is auto withdrawal. Right? I mean, auto auto buy with auto withdrawal.
1295
01:31:14.670 --> 01:31:16.050
And so Right.
1296
01:31:16.590 --> 01:31:17.090
Like,
1297
01:31:17.710 --> 01:31:21.010
the the issue is at the Swan level.
1298
01:31:21.389 --> 01:31:22.929
Correct. If the concern is
1299
01:31:23.325 --> 01:31:25.825
that it's it's a withdrawal versus a spend,
1300
01:31:26.445 --> 01:31:33.720
1301
01:31:34.100 --> 01:31:44.045
1302
01:31:45.784 --> 01:31:47.005
But from my perspective,
1303
01:31:48.270 --> 01:31:50.290
so like I said, for existing users,
1304
01:31:51.230 --> 01:31:52.210
Swan is getting
1305
01:31:52.510 --> 01:31:55.390
less information. So for existing users, there's
1306
01:31:56.205 --> 01:31:58.945
well, I guess, Swan would know that you're you're
1307
01:31:59.245 --> 01:32:05.060
communicating through Spectre because the requests are coming through the API instead of the their web front end.
1308
01:32:06.580 --> 01:32:13.720
But, yeah, from what you what you do with it from there is up to you. And and, you know, you had said the ideal is get your auto withdrawal and then coinjoin it.
1309
01:32:14.415 --> 01:32:36.155
I think maybe the ideal would be to add some interim random hops in between. Right? Some mechanism that says, hey. I've got these different wallets of different types. You know, this one is nested Segwit. This one is a ancient legacy address, you know, and and over the course of the next month, do some random hops and then CoinJoin. Well, I mean, I I don't know. If regulated if regulated exchanges
1310
01:32:36.615 --> 01:32:38.155
1311
01:32:38.855 --> 01:32:41.070
freeze accounts based off of
1312
01:32:41.850 --> 01:32:43.310
future CoinJoin usage,
1313
01:32:43.929 --> 01:32:46.270
then, you know, we're in a whole different situation.
1314
01:32:46.810 --> 01:32:49.370
But as it stands right now, they're not. Right? So
1315
01:32:50.315 --> 01:32:54.175
1316
01:32:54.635 --> 01:32:56.074
Yeah. But so I don't I don't
1317
01:32:57.034 --> 01:32:59.580
I I view that line of criticism
1318
01:33:00.360 --> 01:33:02.060
as a conversation about
1319
01:33:03.000 --> 01:33:03.500
Swan's
1320
01:33:04.040 --> 01:33:05.500
auto withdrawal model,
1321
01:33:06.600 --> 01:33:07.100
but
1322
01:33:07.405 --> 01:33:14.785
I don't know what you do. Like, you know, it let's say it it's a conversation to have, but, like, you need on ramps and you need self custody.
1323
01:33:15.460 --> 01:33:19.400
So, you know, at that point, like, I I don't know. I
1324
01:33:19.780 --> 01:33:30.025
I I just want to send less information to Swan. I wanna make it easier for people to take self custody in an automated way that doesn't do dumb things like
1325
01:33:30.645 --> 01:33:34.230
deposit to the same address all the time or sending an entire XPUB.
1326
01:33:35.910 --> 01:33:42.490
And if if the conclusion is nobody should use Swan because of its auto withdrawal model,
1327
01:33:43.255 --> 01:33:44.795
I just think that's a separate conversation.
1328
01:33:47.415 --> 01:33:47.915
1329
01:33:49.735 --> 01:33:51.435
Yeah. I mean, like, first of all,
1330
01:33:54.240 --> 01:33:56.100
I've been publicly discussing Bitcoin
1331
01:33:58.080 --> 01:33:59.220
under this identity,
1332
01:34:01.395 --> 01:34:06.535
for probably 4 years now, no longer than that. And I'm the first one to admit
1333
01:34:08.520 --> 01:34:15.580
that my perspectives change and my views change and my opinions change, and I'm proud of that. Like, I
1334
01:34:16.175 --> 01:34:22.435
evolve, adapt, and learn, and you can never stop learning. Like, be humble enough to know that you don't know everything, and you just need to keep,
1335
01:34:23.535 --> 01:34:24.995
going down the rabbit hole.
1336
01:34:25.550 --> 01:34:26.930
And sometimes on dispatch,
1337
01:34:27.310 --> 01:34:31.810
one of the reasons I love dispatch is it's a free flowing conversation. So sometimes I come to realizations
1338
01:34:32.510 --> 01:34:33.650
about my own thinking,
1339
01:34:34.895 --> 01:34:35.395
that
1340
01:34:36.175 --> 01:34:38.035
I hadn't considered in the past.
1341
01:34:38.735 --> 01:34:39.235
And
1342
01:34:39.695 --> 01:34:43.715
this is why this this SWAN conversation is very interesting. Well, first of all,
1343
01:34:45.200 --> 01:34:53.235
I think it's pretty public that I am an adviser for SWAN, but I should probably say that, and I haven't said it yet in this conversation. So there you go.
1344
01:34:55.475 --> 01:34:59.094
Very, very small equity stake I got as a result of that.
1345
01:35:01.480 --> 01:35:03.420
Point 1% for full disclosure.
1346
01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:11.815
So, like, I happily will tell them to go fuck themselves on air regardless of my equity stake just for the record.
1347
01:35:13.155 --> 01:35:13.655
So
1348
01:35:14.115 --> 01:35:21.050
to me, the Swan flow was always the ideal KYC flow. Flow. If you were gonna do KYC first of all, Swan has been pretty good about,
1349
01:35:21.670 --> 01:35:27.324
disclosing trade offs of KYC, which once again, I think is the most important thing. They've had me on their podcast.
1350
01:35:27.864 --> 01:35:30.925
Me and Gigi wrote up a whole piece on privacy best practices.
1351
01:35:32.025 --> 01:35:38.900
It's it's probably the only KYC service that actively has education out there for their users on the dangers of KYC.
1352
01:35:40.160 --> 01:35:41.380
And the auto withdraw,
1353
01:35:41.825 --> 01:35:42.565
I thought
1354
01:35:43.745 --> 01:35:46.085
was, you know, very positive for users.
1355
01:35:47.105 --> 01:35:52.320
I still think it's very positive users because the custodial risk is a real thing. Like, I have friends
1356
01:35:52.860 --> 01:35:54.800
who, you know, they use Coinbase,
1357
01:35:55.900 --> 01:36:02.805
you know, college friends and stuff. They use Coinbase. They listen to Rabbit Hole recap. They've listened to me every single time I get drunk scream at them,
1358
01:36:03.265 --> 01:36:11.860
for using custodial service. And then you just find out over a random conversation that they have, like, the majority of their Bitcoin is still on Coinbase because they,
1359
01:36:12.245 --> 01:36:14.905
you know, they just kinda forget about it. The price increases.
1360
01:36:15.205 --> 01:36:20.745
You know? On Cash App, it's even worse. With Cash App, you you have you have these withdrawal limits
1361
01:36:21.550 --> 01:36:27.090
that are very, very low. So as the price increases, it's harder and harder to get your Bitcoin off of Cash App.
1362
01:36:28.215 --> 01:36:33.435
So they get, like, stuck in this custodial relationship out of a mix of laziness and a mix of
1363
01:36:33.974 --> 01:36:34.474
oversight
1364
01:36:34.775 --> 01:36:38.610
and just a Bitcoin price pumping and anxiety about
1365
01:36:39.070 --> 01:36:39.570
storage.
1366
01:36:41.310 --> 01:36:46.055
So the auto withdraw idea, making it as simple as possible to reduce custodial risk made a lot of sense
1367
01:36:46.615 --> 01:36:51.735
to me. I think it's interesting that Swan has such a good reputation in the space
1368
01:36:53.175 --> 01:36:55.755
has a has a pretty good reputation in the space,
1369
01:36:56.120 --> 01:36:59.100
at least as far as, you know, KYC onramps go.
1370
01:37:00.040 --> 01:37:03.900
But AOPP got blown like, don't you think that's interesting that, like, AOPP
1371
01:37:04.280 --> 01:37:07.565
got blown the fuck up? But really in practice,
1372
01:37:08.344 --> 01:37:12.284
you know, a service offering auto withdrawals actually has way better probability
1373
01:37:12.985 --> 01:37:14.844
that it's going to your own
1374
01:37:15.650 --> 01:37:16.150
address.
1375
01:37:17.489 --> 01:37:18.390
Like, it's interesting.
1376
01:37:20.770 --> 01:37:22.790
1377
01:37:23.730 --> 01:37:24.710
You know, you could
1378
01:37:25.125 --> 01:37:27.865
you could AOPP an auto withdrawal
1379
01:37:28.725 --> 01:37:29.785
on ramp service.
1380
01:37:31.205 --> 01:37:32.505
It's just one is saying
1381
01:37:32.910 --> 01:37:35.170
there are these quasi governmental agencies
1382
01:37:35.470 --> 01:37:39.250
forcing you to attest to to something That's the key difference. Yeah.
1383
01:37:40.645 --> 01:37:45.225
1384
01:37:46.005 --> 01:37:46.505
1385
01:37:46.965 --> 01:37:47.465
Yes.
1386
01:37:48.050 --> 01:37:53.750
1387
01:37:57.405 --> 01:37:59.824
Really. You're not gonna give that to me, Keith?
1388
01:38:00.764 --> 01:38:10.630
What what am I missing in that thought process? Because like I said, with AOPP, you can you can just you can just sign for me, and I can send it directly to you. But with auto withdraw
1389
01:38:12.185 --> 01:38:16.685
Yeah. I mean, I could it's clearly me unless I'm, like, switching out to your XPUB,
1390
01:38:17.145 --> 01:38:19.245
and I'm just buying the next week.
1391
01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:26.740
1392
01:38:27.375 --> 01:38:32.835
1393
01:38:33.295 --> 01:38:36.994
1394
01:38:37.360 --> 01:38:40.020
I mean, it would be dumb, but you could give me your XPUB.
1395
01:38:40.320 --> 01:38:42.820
Right? I create a watch only wallet for your XPUB.
1396
01:38:43.280 --> 01:38:48.545
I connect my Swan auto withdrawal to that, and I'm paying you through Swan
1397
01:38:48.925 --> 01:38:49.665
every week.
1398
01:38:50.765 --> 01:38:51.265
1399
01:38:51.885 --> 01:38:56.065
But yeah. So I it's matter. Right? It's a probability game. Defaults matter and
1400
01:38:57.750 --> 01:38:58.489
I don't know.
1401
01:38:58.790 --> 01:38:59.770
There's something there.
1402
01:39:00.390 --> 01:39:01.690
1403
01:39:02.150 --> 01:39:02.650
to
1404
01:39:03.190 --> 01:39:03.670
fake
1405
01:39:04.185 --> 01:39:05.165
redirect the AOPP,
1406
01:39:08.025 --> 01:39:08.525
but
1407
01:39:09.304 --> 01:39:09.804
I
1408
01:39:10.105 --> 01:39:11.165
it it's like,
1409
01:39:12.270 --> 01:39:14.530
I don't know. The the the differences are just
1410
01:39:14.910 --> 01:39:18.530
I I don't know. It's like, you know, we're talking about the last, like, 0.1%
1411
01:39:19.070 --> 01:39:21.250
of something. I I don't know. It's not
1412
01:39:21.695 --> 01:39:26.115
leaping out as a huge issue or a huge, like, parallel to me.
1413
01:39:27.215 --> 01:39:28.835
1414
01:39:29.610 --> 01:39:31.150
1415
01:39:34.570 --> 01:39:40.895
1416
01:39:41.994 --> 01:39:44.895
1417
01:39:45.500 --> 01:39:48.079
Bitcoin cyber hornets Twitter thing. And
1418
01:39:48.780 --> 01:39:52.159
you have to if if something like this blows up, you have to
1419
01:39:53.815 --> 01:40:02.795
remain cool and and and look what's actually being discussed and wait a couple of days or before something gets completely blown out of proportion.
1420
01:40:03.389 --> 01:40:11.250
But it's I think it's an important immune system we have for for Bitcoin that it's reminding people who are
1421
01:40:12.045 --> 01:40:13.744
working on on their projects,
1422
01:40:14.045 --> 01:40:17.184
if it's Swan, if it's Spector, if it's Sparrow, anybody else,
1423
01:40:18.125 --> 01:40:20.350
to to say, like, oh, AOPP
1424
01:40:20.730 --> 01:40:27.870
is is is is not really good or KYC is not the real way and and beat the drum on that no KYC thing
1425
01:40:28.225 --> 01:40:31.125
and, remind people that they should probably
1426
01:40:31.665 --> 01:40:33.284
do some home mining or
1427
01:40:33.744 --> 01:40:35.824
buy no KYC at,
1428
01:40:36.560 --> 01:40:40.260
at from friends or from from the local Bitcoin meetup or whatever
1429
01:40:40.640 --> 01:40:43.220
and and and go go that way because,
1430
01:40:43.920 --> 01:40:45.220
we don't know how
1431
01:40:45.885 --> 01:40:52.545
we don't know as we move forward into this information age and the Bitcoinization we see, we don't know how crazy
1432
01:40:53.050 --> 01:41:07.054
things will become. I mean, the whole Canada thing is going to be really interesting. Also very interesting in Austria is they introduced the capital gains tax on that, and they're putting actually pressure on the exchanges, especially the local, exchange
1433
01:41:07.515 --> 01:41:08.094
with Panda
1434
01:41:08.475 --> 01:41:09.695
to actually report,
1435
01:41:10.620 --> 01:41:19.120
the the and report and collect the taxes and and pay that directly to the to the tax authorities there. So things are becoming
1436
01:41:19.574 --> 01:41:21.195
really, really interesting. And
1437
01:41:21.975 --> 01:41:26.554
I could imagine that, like especially at this conversation with this KYC
1438
01:41:26.935 --> 01:41:29.840
adviser there and and then, like, AML guy,
1439
01:41:30.460 --> 01:41:31.280
in in Switzerland.
1440
01:41:31.820 --> 01:41:37.280
It was interesting that they think, really, that if you, in the future, show up and want to
1441
01:41:37.804 --> 01:41:43.264
spend Bitcoin in, I don't know, Switzerland and wanna buy a car for â¬20,000
1442
01:41:43.804 --> 01:41:45.025
or Swiss francs,
1443
01:41:45.370 --> 01:41:47.230
and you can prove that
1444
01:41:47.610 --> 01:41:55.724
via travel rule who were the prior owners of these bitcoins and at which exchange they were bought, you cannot basically use these Bitcoin.
1445
01:41:56.505 --> 01:41:57.965
So there will be, like,
1446
01:41:58.744 --> 01:41:59.405
a KYC,
1447
01:42:01.670 --> 01:42:06.090
Bitcoin world and AML Bitcoin world, and there will be, like, this massive
1448
01:42:07.830 --> 01:42:10.090
dark pool of Bitcoin which will
1449
01:42:10.534 --> 01:42:11.034
continuously
1450
01:42:11.974 --> 01:42:13.275
keep growing. So,
1451
01:42:14.614 --> 01:42:19.195
I I don't know how you see this, but you see something like this coming in in US too?
1452
01:42:19.650 --> 01:42:22.070
1453
01:42:22.690 --> 01:42:24.390
your prognosis there.
1454
01:42:25.570 --> 01:42:26.550
I I think,
1455
01:42:28.575 --> 01:42:36.275
you know, there's a lot of Bitcoin proponents, especially recent proponents, I would say, like the sailor school of thought, if you wanna give them a name,
1456
01:42:36.920 --> 01:42:39.500
that think of Bitcoin as purely an investment,
1457
01:42:41.480 --> 01:42:41.980
asset,
1458
01:42:42.680 --> 01:42:45.340
and are completely fine with using regulated custodians
1459
01:42:45.765 --> 01:42:48.265
and think that additional burdensome regulation,
1460
01:42:49.445 --> 01:42:52.980
can provide, so called regulatory clarity. So I think,
1461
01:42:54.340 --> 01:42:56.840
a lot of people in that camp won't be against,
1462
01:42:57.380 --> 01:43:02.360
all of this regulation that is almost definitely coming down the pipeline for,
1463
01:43:02.935 --> 01:43:03.435
companies,
1464
01:43:04.775 --> 01:43:05.915
specifically custodial
1465
01:43:06.775 --> 01:43:13.300
companies. Hopefully, not companies that are running a node for their users, but you can see it easily going down that path as well.
1466
01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:22.804
And I actually think it's so perverse that, like, people talk about incentives. I mean, incentives are a key aspect to Bitcoin's,
1467
01:43:23.905 --> 01:43:26.965
looking at Bitcoin and and looking at the game theory of Bitcoin.
1468
01:43:27.820 --> 01:43:28.720
There's actually
1469
01:43:29.180 --> 01:43:31.120
some support there, I think, that,
1470
01:43:31.660 --> 01:43:35.200
you know, if if you have burdensome KYC regulation,
1471
01:43:36.795 --> 01:43:47.929
more identity reporting stuff, the price of Bitcoin actually short term could pump off of that half between the fact that people, you know, a lot of people will be cut out from even selling on these regulated exchanges,
1472
01:43:48.389 --> 01:43:51.655
but also because a lot of the people in the sailor school might think
1473
01:43:52.215 --> 01:43:52.655
that,
1474
01:43:53.094 --> 01:43:54.715
that regulatory clarity
1475
01:43:55.175 --> 01:43:59.750
means, you know, Bitcoin's more more likely to stay around and they pile in more.
1476
01:44:00.470 --> 01:44:05.130
And I think I agree with you that the result is gonna basically be a bifurcation of the market
1477
01:44:05.510 --> 01:44:06.410
where you have,
1478
01:44:06.870 --> 01:44:08.250
a proper free market.
1479
01:44:08.685 --> 01:44:10.145
Some people might call it,
1480
01:44:11.165 --> 01:44:16.065
a black market, but I think a free market, and then you have a controlled regulated market.
1481
01:44:16.560 --> 01:44:18.820
But, ultimately, I think long term,
1482
01:44:19.760 --> 01:44:23.540
that regulation becomes so burdensome and so much friction is there,
1483
01:44:25.434 --> 01:44:37.060
and so many people will get burned. You know? You lose a lot of the properties of Bitcoin. You lose the censorship resistance. You even lose the seizure resistance because, you know, you end up holding it with a custodial party. I could see,
1484
01:44:37.840 --> 01:44:46.795
withdrawals not being allowed or only being able to withdraw to whitelist at addresses and stuff. So you lose that seizure resistance even if technically you control the private key.
1485
01:44:47.495 --> 01:44:51.035
If all your holdings are completely known and they're completely tied to your
1486
01:44:51.760 --> 01:44:54.980
to your to your identity and your personal identifiable information,
1487
01:44:55.440 --> 01:45:07.605
that you know, then they put a gun to your head. They threaten you with jail time. They threaten you with heavy fines, and then they make you they make you comply. They get a couple people to comply. Most people get scared into it and just comply. But I think, ultimately, long term,
1488
01:45:08.385 --> 01:45:10.085
there'll be so much friction there
1489
01:45:11.650 --> 01:45:18.755
that that the the free market Bitcoin will win. Like, they're it'll just be such a better experience. You'll have
1490
01:45:19.315 --> 01:45:25.175
all the all the the features and the benefits that Bitcoin provides people in terms of censorship resistance,
1491
01:45:25.635 --> 01:45:26.695
seizure resistance,
1492
01:45:27.155 --> 01:45:28.215
inflation resistance.
1493
01:45:28.940 --> 01:45:32.640
Like, you get all those benefits in the proper free market Bitcoin.
1494
01:45:33.180 --> 01:45:34.160
You get a
1495
01:45:34.700 --> 01:45:35.520
a shitty
1496
01:45:35.980 --> 01:45:37.760
repackaged version of them
1497
01:45:38.185 --> 01:45:41.485
in, you know, the regulated compliant cutbuck Bitcoin.
1498
01:45:42.505 --> 01:45:47.244
So I think long term, the future is bright. The question is, how many Bitcoiners get burned
1499
01:45:47.960 --> 01:45:49.739
in that dark period in between?
1500
01:45:50.120 --> 01:45:53.500
Because that dark period can get it could get really fucking bad,
1501
01:45:54.040 --> 01:46:00.125
and that's what that's what worries me. And and a perfect example is is this Canadian shit that's going on right now
1502
01:46:00.505 --> 01:46:01.245
is that,
1503
01:46:02.210 --> 01:46:05.630
you know, Trudeau's government has educated people on the risks
1504
01:46:06.090 --> 01:46:06.910
of KYC
1505
01:46:07.770 --> 01:46:13.335
more than any education any of us can do. And why is that? It's because when people's livelihoods are threatened,
1506
01:46:13.715 --> 01:46:15.335
it is the ultimate motivation.
1507
01:46:16.114 --> 01:46:19.175
But the problem is is that when that point happens,
1508
01:46:19.630 --> 01:46:22.690
a lot of times it's already too late. Like, we talked about earlier,
1509
01:46:23.230 --> 01:46:31.835
like, those people are already burned now. We we talked about earlier, you know, it takes time to get comfortable with using Sovereign Bitcoin. It takes time to get comfortable with multisig.
1510
01:46:32.215 --> 01:46:36.635
It takes time to learn how to use privacy best practices, especially with something like CoinJoin
1511
01:46:36.970 --> 01:46:41.390
where you have timing analysis and stuff. You need to move slow. You're forced to move slow.
1512
01:46:42.970 --> 01:46:49.074
So so the question becomes how many people get burned in that immediate process? And I think that's why as an industry,
1513
01:46:49.534 --> 01:46:51.155
as a community, we should
1514
01:46:51.614 --> 01:46:54.034
be trying to build these tools, make them better,
1515
01:46:54.580 --> 01:47:00.199
improve the education, improve the discourse so less people get burned so that dark period isn't as bad.
1516
01:47:00.820 --> 01:47:01.320
Mhmm.
1517
01:47:01.835 --> 01:47:09.615
1518
01:47:10.090 --> 01:47:12.190
And, I was still thinking, Eggman,
1519
01:47:12.730 --> 01:47:13.949
like, these kind of truckers,
1520
01:47:14.330 --> 01:47:16.270
like, I wish they had, like,
1521
01:47:17.095 --> 01:47:25.095
they had a moon wallet on their phone and, like, a little stack there just for this period when when they get locked out of the bank account. And I really
1522
01:47:26.170 --> 01:47:36.135
I mean, it's gives you a bad feeling in the stomach just thinking about this. Like like, there's so many people who get affected by this, and they haven't even understood or heard about Bitcoin and
1523
01:47:36.435 --> 01:47:38.855
haven't figured out all the whole shitcoin stuff. So
1524
01:47:40.675 --> 01:47:41.655
I think, like,
1525
01:47:42.275 --> 01:47:45.650
what we need to do is, like, push forward on the Bitcoin education
1526
01:47:46.670 --> 01:47:48.690
and push as hard as we can
1527
01:47:49.070 --> 01:47:50.610
forward on the fast
1528
01:47:51.230 --> 01:47:51.730
adoption
1529
01:47:52.030 --> 01:47:53.250
of of self custody
1530
01:47:53.715 --> 01:47:59.315
of your keys, your coins, and do the best job we can by providing no KYC tools.
1531
01:48:00.035 --> 01:48:00.535
But
1532
01:48:00.930 --> 01:48:03.510
the priority for for for me personally,
1533
01:48:03.890 --> 01:48:08.630
coming also from my hardware wallet security side is, like, I want to see fast adoption,
1534
01:48:09.195 --> 01:48:10.495
your keys, your coins,
1535
01:48:11.035 --> 01:48:11.695
by the
1536
01:48:12.875 --> 01:48:15.695
biggest amount of people possible. And if I look around,
1537
01:48:16.530 --> 01:48:34.310
we have so many people coming into the space over the last 2, 3 years. And, like like, friends of yours, and they're still hanging out on fucking Coinbase. Like, what what the heck is going on? Like, is this it's it's it's it's amazing. And I I have the same experiences. I roll my eyes sometimes and think, like, guys, you
1538
01:48:34.610 --> 01:48:36.230
you you listening to all the,
1539
01:48:36.930 --> 01:48:58.390
1540
01:48:58.925 --> 01:49:03.905
1541
01:49:04.364 --> 01:49:06.784
If you're sitting with your coins on a Coinbase
1542
01:49:07.320 --> 01:49:08.620
or on any exchange,
1543
01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:13.420
like, get this stuff off there. Like, if you already see it happening in Canada,
1544
01:49:13.880 --> 01:49:22.695
Canada, if they pull this off really now, it's gonna be such a massive shit show for so many people. Like, there's gonna be not it's gonna be
1545
01:49:23.290 --> 01:49:30.110
the biggest Bitcoin advertisement ever. It's gonna be the biggest Barbara Streisand effect on Bitcoin ever. It's gonna be huge.
1546
01:49:30.535 --> 01:49:32.715
1547
01:49:33.895 --> 01:49:35.035
1548
01:49:35.495 --> 01:49:35.995
Easily.
1549
01:49:36.695 --> 01:49:37.435
Or like,
1550
01:49:38.295 --> 01:49:40.970
the dark dark market market was called Silk Road.
1551
01:49:41.750 --> 01:49:47.130
So yes. I mean and do you just to to to to talk about numbers here. Like, these are old numbers.
1552
01:49:48.915 --> 01:49:56.055
I don't think there are more like 4 or 5,000,000 people using actually hardware wallets. And I don't think they are, like, more than probably
1553
01:49:56.435 --> 01:49:58.780
20,000 people or whatever using
1554
01:49:59.639 --> 01:50:02.059
a a a a Vazavi, a
1555
01:50:03.320 --> 01:50:04.139
a mood wallet,
1556
01:50:04.440 --> 01:50:06.619
a sparrow, or specter. Like, probably
1557
01:50:06.929 --> 01:50:12.835
maybe maybe 40 or whatever. So they the the people holding their real keys on their Bitcoin only is tiny.
1558
01:50:13.295 --> 01:50:16.355
And the the the largest by 4, 5,000,000 people,
1559
01:50:16.820 --> 01:50:20.040
having a ledger, a Trezor, a hardware wallet. And then if you
1560
01:50:20.660 --> 01:50:25.880
look at the the amount of users on these crypto shitcoin exchanges
1561
01:50:26.555 --> 01:50:31.215
who are just trading Shiba coin against Yo Yo coin or whatever.
1562
01:50:31.515 --> 01:50:32.555
It's it's
1563
01:50:33.660 --> 01:50:36.800
this is the this is the real problem we have. We have, like,
1564
01:50:37.100 --> 01:50:41.840
a a 100000000 people. We have to move over to your keys, your coins.
1565
01:50:42.385 --> 01:50:44.165
Don't listen to the shitcoin noise.
1566
01:50:44.545 --> 01:50:50.165
And, maybe these people are already lost. I don't know. But sorry. My rant here. But this is the This is the 100,000,000
1567
01:50:50.690 --> 01:50:51.750
1568
01:50:52.210 --> 01:50:52.710
people
1569
01:50:53.810 --> 01:50:56.630
that own Bitcoin, whether self custody or custodial?
1570
01:50:57.090 --> 01:50:58.949
That would be your number? Even higher.
1571
01:50:59.655 --> 01:51:10.370
1572
01:51:10.750 --> 01:51:12.850
people have KYC accounts
1573
01:51:13.230 --> 01:51:13.730
on,
1574
01:51:14.910 --> 01:51:16.050
on on exchanges.
1575
01:51:16.485 --> 01:51:20.585
And I think the number now is is probably 200 or 250,000,000.
1576
01:51:21.205 --> 01:51:22.105
And we still
1577
01:51:23.420 --> 01:51:31.040
1578
01:51:32.395 --> 01:51:34.494
total, what do you think the number is
1579
01:51:34.795 --> 01:51:37.695
for, like, people that have 90% of their Bitcoin,
1580
01:51:38.474 --> 01:51:40.735
self custody in private Bitcoin wallets?
1581
01:51:42.739 --> 01:51:47.320
The number who have have most of You know, like on hardware wallets or stuff. Yeah.
1582
01:51:47.860 --> 01:51:49.000
1583
01:51:49.395 --> 01:51:51.495
I would rather say 5.
1584
01:51:52.435 --> 01:51:56.375
Like, the the numbers I I was at my analysis with with,
1585
01:51:57.400 --> 01:52:02.620
2 years ago when I was running some numbers for our business model and doing some research, I was like
1586
01:52:03.080 --> 01:52:05.340
and talking to Ledger, talking to a treasurer,
1587
01:52:06.285 --> 01:52:07.665
we had a number, I think,
1588
01:52:08.125 --> 01:52:19.060
2,000,000, 3,000,000 hardware wallet users. And through the last 2 years with education, a lot of people provide and stuff. And the sales numbers, I would say, at max, 5,000,000 people.
1589
01:52:19.440 --> 01:52:25.219
1590
01:52:27.745 --> 01:52:28.405
1591
01:52:28.865 --> 01:52:32.165
this fucking problem. Like, you can go on the darknet,
1592
01:52:32.465 --> 01:52:43.110
download this list, and I know people who have done it. And then you can go to your city, and you're in Berlin or whatever. And then you say, oh, there's Friedrich Strasse, whatever, a 100. And there's
1593
01:52:43.695 --> 01:52:54.349
Toby Mueller lives there, and he has a ledger. Like, I wonder why the guy has a ledger. You buy a ledger hardware wallet or something like this if you have to protect a significant amount of Bitcoin or crypto.
1594
01:52:54.969 --> 01:53:02.989
So we see, like, people buy this stuff from, like they start buying a hardware wallet, like, over whenever over 5 or 10000 in in crypto.
1595
01:53:04.075 --> 01:53:08.655
1596
01:53:09.115 --> 01:53:09.775
which is
1597
01:53:12.190 --> 01:53:13.409
frankly unacceptable.
1598
01:53:15.630 --> 01:53:18.770
You should I mean, they're supposed to be a Bitcoin company.
1599
01:53:19.215 --> 01:53:22.275
You shouldn't have to dox yourself to your surveillance corporate
1600
01:53:22.575 --> 01:53:23.075
card,
1601
01:53:24.415 --> 01:53:44.305
1602
01:53:44.750 --> 01:53:46.849
1603
01:53:47.790 --> 01:53:48.929
I love the project.
1604
01:53:49.949 --> 01:53:53.010
You guys are a little bit interesting here in that you have this software
1605
01:53:53.485 --> 01:53:56.304
open source software project, and you have this open source Bitcoin,
1606
01:53:56.844 --> 01:53:59.664
open source hardware project, Inspector Do It Yourself.
1607
01:54:00.445 --> 01:54:02.224
What's the current state of that project?
1608
01:54:03.470 --> 01:54:08.530
Why should people be interested in it? I think you said you have, like, a big revamp coming on it earlier in the show.
1609
01:54:09.230 --> 01:54:10.130
1610
01:54:10.565 --> 01:54:19.260
the long story short is, like, our CTO, Stefan, is a is a total monster, and we have, like, a nice team supporting it. And he's he's
1611
01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:22.140
he's amazing. The guy is, like, is massive.
1612
01:54:22.840 --> 01:54:23.340
And,
1613
01:54:23.880 --> 01:54:31.105
so we started actually out building this hardware wallet, and this is actually how spec the desktop was was coming because we were looking for
1614
01:54:31.645 --> 01:54:32.145
a
1615
01:54:32.685 --> 01:54:34.304
a companion app for our
1616
01:54:34.670 --> 01:54:47.745
hardware wallet. And first, we started just with a developer board and a scanner to do QR code based and SD card based stuff. And it's a nice iPhone 4 screen on a developer board, and then we added a smart card reader
1617
01:54:48.125 --> 01:54:49.165
and and, and,
1618
01:54:50.125 --> 01:54:57.230
connector board to this. So and all packaged all this in something what we call Specter Shield, which is much more for enterprise use.
1619
01:54:57.610 --> 01:55:03.495
And, we really did our homework over the last years, not only building in liquid into that, but also,
1620
01:55:04.195 --> 01:55:05.955
working on a design that we,
1621
01:55:06.995 --> 01:55:11.520
we can we can ship out as a finished device. Looks a little bit like a old iPhone 4,
1622
01:55:12.620 --> 01:55:15.500
and has a has a nice metal casing and,
1623
01:55:16.220 --> 01:55:17.840
is is is in the works.
1624
01:55:18.925 --> 01:55:23.425
We are mostly focused here on on high net worth and enterprise usage
1625
01:55:24.045 --> 01:55:24.364
and,
1626
01:55:25.165 --> 01:55:26.465
not sure about our
1627
01:55:27.010 --> 01:55:29.670
retail strategy there, maybe in the future.
1628
01:55:30.289 --> 01:55:30.770
And,
1629
01:55:31.650 --> 01:55:36.150
so this is where we stand. We are currently testing production models and
1630
01:55:36.805 --> 01:55:37.545
hope that,
1631
01:55:38.085 --> 01:55:38.825
we can,
1632
01:55:39.205 --> 01:55:42.105
move to full production maybe later this year.
1633
01:55:42.565 --> 01:55:57.465
And, yes, it's it's it's very exciting to see this developing, and we didn't take any shortcuts on the on the firmware there or anything. We have we have done a solid job developing this thing for 3 years. And the good thing is with a new device,
1634
01:55:58.405 --> 01:56:04.510
you can you can still use your Spectre DIY, your old one, and you can use the new Spectre,
1635
01:56:05.130 --> 01:56:09.265
which is coming there. And it's the same fam firmware. So you have,
1636
01:56:09.865 --> 01:56:10.965
a full,
1637
01:56:11.345 --> 01:56:13.045
MIT license, and it's
1638
01:56:14.290 --> 01:56:16.070
fully free and open source software.
1639
01:56:16.690 --> 01:56:22.550
So, we're very excited about this this coming up there. So users can you can build it yourself
1640
01:56:22.885 --> 01:56:26.985
1641
01:56:27.445 --> 01:56:28.825
with off the shelf hardware.
1642
01:56:29.205 --> 01:56:34.400
But it's got bigger screen, higher price point than seed signer, or you can buy the prebuilt device.
1643
01:56:35.260 --> 01:56:38.700
1644
01:56:39.340 --> 01:56:48.385
Keith, correct me if I'm wrong, is about $40, 40, $50 when you build it. Like 60 now. Inflation. Order in bulk, I got it down to $32.
1645
01:56:49.520 --> 01:56:50.020
Oh,
1646
01:56:50.640 --> 01:56:51.300
okay. Well,
1647
01:56:51.600 --> 01:56:53.040
probably you'll have a, like, a,
1648
01:56:53.600 --> 01:56:54.340
seat signer,
1649
01:56:54.800 --> 01:56:56.260
bathtub full of it already.
1650
01:56:58.175 --> 01:57:00.355
1651
01:57:00.975 --> 01:57:05.315
1652
01:57:06.070 --> 01:57:12.889
1653
01:57:13.270 --> 01:57:15.095
a lot of other drag guys jumped on it.
1654
01:57:15.575 --> 01:57:20.395
And and they use the embed library, which is also the library that Stepan built.
1655
01:57:21.735 --> 01:57:23.035
He wrote and built
1656
01:57:23.679 --> 01:57:37.445
the on it. And seat signer first just did just the casing for us, for Flexman, and then but then developed a seat signer out of it. And we are coming in at a higher price point. I think the developer board is â¬60,
1657
01:57:38.145 --> 01:57:38.885
or $60.
1658
01:57:39.425 --> 01:58:02.690
And then the scanner is, like, 30 and then another 10 for the casing and the cables. So you you're talking about, like, like, a $100 there. And it's a really, really nice, design and and really great screen and great user experience. That's my primary wallet. And I think it's for me, of course, it's the best wallet in the market, but you can ask the likes of, I don't know, maybe Michael Flexman what he thinks about this,
1659
01:58:03.230 --> 01:58:03.890
this device.
1660
01:58:04.590 --> 01:58:06.610
And, we get some good feedback there.
1661
01:58:07.175 --> 01:58:13.835
So, but moving forward, like, we we we're really proud on on on what we what we did there. And,
1662
01:58:14.215 --> 01:58:18.040
yeah. So we got some nice Bitcoin only stuff coming up.
1663
01:58:18.579 --> 01:58:19.079
And,
1664
01:58:19.940 --> 01:58:23.639
yeah, it's great how to just to see how the whole ecosystem is growing
1665
01:58:24.085 --> 01:58:24.525
and,
1666
01:58:24.965 --> 01:58:26.185
without the
1667
01:58:26.565 --> 01:58:27.065
insane
1668
01:58:28.085 --> 01:58:30.105
without you you don't need the insane
1669
01:58:30.645 --> 01:58:35.610
funding that these shitcoins and shitcoin exchanges have. You can They have a lot of funding.
1670
01:58:35.990 --> 01:58:40.845
They have a crazy amount of funding. And it's it's like, this is something that's really puzzling to me.
1671
01:58:41.325 --> 01:58:49.985
Like, all these crazy shit coin projects, they have they they like, if you listen to the Solana stories and what's like, how huge this
1672
01:58:50.500 --> 01:58:54.679
Ethereum and Solana conferences are and what kind of money they throw around.
1673
01:58:54.980 --> 01:58:55.480
And
1674
01:58:55.860 --> 01:58:57.400
Bitcoin is still number 1.
1675
01:58:57.735 --> 01:59:03.595
It's, it's building great tools. It's it has the best and the most passionate people in the space,
1676
01:59:04.055 --> 01:59:11.570
and it has a clear mission. It's very clear about what it wants. Like, the Bitcoin community really knows very clearly what we're working on.
1677
01:59:11.945 --> 01:59:14.045
And, it's just amazing
1678
01:59:14.425 --> 01:59:14.925
that
1679
01:59:16.025 --> 01:59:20.525
nobody is even close to competing with Bitcoin. It's amazing, and I and I love it.
1680
01:59:22.250 --> 01:59:27.070
1681
01:59:28.735 --> 01:59:29.235
crypto.com,
1682
01:59:29.614 --> 01:59:30.755
no one used crypto.com.
1683
01:59:31.055 --> 01:59:32.035
They paid a $100,000,000
1684
01:59:32.495 --> 01:59:35.155
for their f one sponsorship for a single year.
1685
01:59:37.510 --> 01:59:38.410
I'm pretty sure.
1686
01:59:38.790 --> 01:59:41.110
It's it's absolutely insane, the difference in funding.
1687
01:59:41.910 --> 01:59:43.850
So we're almost at the 2 hour mark.
1688
01:59:44.745 --> 01:59:46.344
But before we do wrap up,
1689
01:59:47.065 --> 01:59:50.285
what about what is your thoughts on Lightning Integration inspector?
1690
01:59:50.905 --> 01:59:59.130
What is the is there a road map there? Is is lightning never gonna be integrated? Will it be integrated in 2 weeks? What is what is your thought process?
1691
02:00:00.150 --> 02:00:00.650
1692
02:00:01.235 --> 02:00:03.335
are not actively working on lightning.
1693
02:00:03.715 --> 02:00:11.220
So we think the lightning space is well alive and kicking and and is doing great. We are coming more in from the
1694
02:00:11.600 --> 02:00:15.700
from the on chain custody side and have chosen to
1695
02:00:16.160 --> 02:00:16.660
to
1696
02:00:17.040 --> 02:00:18.260
work on on liquid.
1697
02:00:18.825 --> 02:00:20.185
And, we would
1698
02:00:20.985 --> 02:00:23.945
we are interested in lightning. We are very passionate about lightning.
1699
02:00:24.425 --> 02:00:27.640
Stephan can talk to you about it until your ears bleed.
1700
02:00:28.120 --> 02:00:30.300
And, especially, he loves to talk about,
1701
02:00:30.760 --> 02:00:32.380
Bitcoin lightning security
1702
02:00:32.760 --> 02:00:36.460
and lightning hardware secure lightning hardware back ends.
1703
02:00:36.760 --> 02:00:37.260
Because
1704
02:00:37.585 --> 02:00:42.804
as we see the the volume and the, the network grow and and enlightening,
1705
02:00:43.985 --> 02:00:50.700
there are more and more security questions coming up, especially, like, where do you put the private keys when you are
1706
02:00:51.080 --> 02:00:58.235
managing larger amounts of of Bitcoin on lightning? And usually, they you know better than I as I sit on the on the node. And,
1707
02:00:59.035 --> 02:01:03.890
this is this is on the servers, on hardened servers, and this is something
1708
02:01:04.350 --> 02:01:05.250
which is not
1709
02:01:05.630 --> 02:01:08.770
not very pleasant to think about. So I think in the future
1710
02:01:09.310 --> 02:01:10.990
in the near future, we will need,
1711
02:01:11.470 --> 02:01:21.635
secure back ends for lightning and, and specifically built for lightning also so that you really can can protect these, these keys in a in a in a in a good way.
1712
02:01:22.520 --> 02:01:25.260
1713
02:01:26.120 --> 02:01:30.700
1714
02:01:32.574 --> 02:01:33.235
the the the HSM,
1715
02:01:33.695 --> 02:01:34.755
which can support
1716
02:01:35.135 --> 02:01:37.395
Bitcoin, liquid, and also lightning.
1717
02:01:37.935 --> 02:01:41.219
And, we would love to build this. But as we just discussed,
1718
02:01:44.320 --> 02:01:49.300
funding is the question. Right. And, and that's that's where we go. Right.
1719
02:01:49.825 --> 02:01:53.844
And priorities. You cannot do everything at the same time. You have to prioritize
1720
02:01:54.145 --> 02:01:55.364
what you wanna do.
1721
02:01:55.745 --> 02:01:59.125
But, I think we really did our homework on the Spectre
1722
02:02:00.020 --> 02:02:05.560
hardware wallet, which is coming up, and, we would like to put more resources on the Spectre desktop.
1723
02:02:06.020 --> 02:02:11.465
1724
02:02:12.165 --> 02:02:15.385
It's a sexy piece of hardware. It's, it was definitely,
1725
02:02:16.324 --> 02:02:18.585
definitely feels like it was way ahead of its time.
1726
02:02:19.030 --> 02:02:22.410
I do a 100% appreciate all the work you and your team do.
1727
02:02:22.870 --> 02:02:26.730
I mean, you mentioned we've mentioned already, like, the fact that these 247
1728
02:02:27.030 --> 02:02:27.770
note boxes
1729
02:02:28.175 --> 02:02:30.675
have, you know, your hot lightning keys on it.
1730
02:02:31.055 --> 02:02:33.635
But if you want a really unsettling thought,
1731
02:02:34.495 --> 02:02:37.470
there are a lot of lightning nodes that are being run
1732
02:02:38.430 --> 02:02:39.530
on Canadian,
1733
02:02:40.030 --> 02:02:41.490
VPSs right now.
1734
02:02:42.030 --> 02:02:47.514
And depending on how the Canadian government wants to proceed here and how hard they go,
1735
02:02:49.974 --> 02:02:52.715
that should be a very interesting painful case study,
1736
02:02:54.579 --> 02:02:59.000
in in what is custodial risk and what isn't. Because, technically, it's not custodial,
1737
02:03:00.099 --> 02:03:02.994
but if you're running your node on someone else's servers,
1738
02:03:04.574 --> 02:03:06.835
located in a country that's hostile to Bitcoin,
1739
02:03:07.695 --> 02:03:12.530
it could get pretty messy pretty quickly. So it should be interesting to see how that plays out.
1740
02:03:13.470 --> 02:03:14.690
Yeah. Definitely.
1741
02:03:15.390 --> 02:03:20.610
The big one I'm thinking of is is Luna Node because Luna Node is, like, the very low cost,
1742
02:03:21.265 --> 02:03:26.005
easy option of running BTC pay server, and they're a Canadian company. But, Keith, go.
1743
02:03:27.800 --> 02:03:30.060
1744
02:03:30.360 --> 02:03:31.580
the Luna node, but
1745
02:03:31.880 --> 02:03:40.675
but You better move that, brother. The key. No. I control the key. What can they do? They can seize my note, my my BC pay, and they can't get any of my funds.
1746
02:03:41.295 --> 02:03:42.695
1747
02:03:43.135 --> 02:03:49.980
1748
02:03:51.000 --> 02:03:53.100
1749
02:03:53.560 --> 02:03:55.420
1750
02:03:56.215 --> 02:03:58.875
1751
02:03:59.255 --> 02:04:06.970
No. That's the on chain portion, not the lightning portion. Yeah. No. I I don't I can't deal with lightning. I I can't. Okay. But I but I have to deal with the brain space.
1752
02:04:07.510 --> 02:04:09.050
1753
02:04:09.430 --> 02:04:12.475
Lightning hot wallets on Right. Right. On Lumen.
1754
02:04:12.855 --> 02:04:14.795
1755
02:04:15.415 --> 02:04:21.594
you know, I think it's just it's such a big space. There's so much to learn that it would, you know, it would just be a huge time suck.
1756
02:04:21.960 --> 02:04:22.460
But,
1757
02:04:23.320 --> 02:04:25.420
as as Moritz had mentioned earlier,
1758
02:04:26.280 --> 02:04:29.340
the 80 like, it was basically 80% of the Swan integration
1759
02:04:29.720 --> 02:04:30.700
was to build
1760
02:04:31.485 --> 02:04:32.225
a flexible
1761
02:04:33.245 --> 02:04:33.745
extensions
1762
02:04:34.125 --> 02:04:35.265
layer into
1763
02:04:35.645 --> 02:04:38.385
Spectre. And Swan just happened to be the first,
1764
02:04:38.850 --> 02:04:41.270
you know, you can think of it as a plug in into Spectre.
1765
02:04:41.890 --> 02:04:50.685
So I'd be really interested to hear ideas of, like, what what would make sense as an extension that would connect, like, LND
1766
02:04:51.225 --> 02:04:51.965
to Spectre.
1767
02:04:52.265 --> 02:04:55.270
You know, like, I I don't I don't run a lightning
1768
02:04:55.650 --> 02:05:00.070
server, so I'm I'm you know, it's been, like, 2 years since I've played with it, so I'm pretty ignorant.
1769
02:05:00.449 --> 02:05:04.625
But, you know, those, like, on chain touch points that LND might have,
1770
02:05:05.245 --> 02:05:09.985
maybe it makes sense to tie that to a wallet inspector, and we can have a simple extension
1771
02:05:10.285 --> 02:05:13.240
that facilitates that communication back and forth.
1772
02:05:13.940 --> 02:05:23.065
That is you know, depending on what needs to be done, but something like that should be fairly straightforward where you're just saying, hey, wallet. Give me a new on chain address or,
1773
02:05:23.445 --> 02:05:26.630
hey. You know, let me check my, you know, I don't know, my my,
1774
02:05:27.110 --> 02:05:30.409
what do they call it? My submarine swap out loop out,
1775
02:05:31.270 --> 02:05:31.929
on chain.
1776
02:05:32.949 --> 02:05:34.170
That should be straightforward.
1777
02:05:37.585 --> 02:05:38.565
1778
02:05:39.505 --> 02:05:44.405
I, yeah, look forward to seeing what extensions get added, to Spectre going forward.
1779
02:05:45.719 --> 02:05:47.340
1780
02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:50.060
I did tweet out my my trivial,
1781
02:05:50.600 --> 02:05:53.660
slush pool history importer as the the second extension
1782
02:05:54.195 --> 02:06:05.710
Slush would be great. Yeah. So it's I call it trivial because, like, I think it's awesome. I think I I I love the idea of seeing little slush pool icons in in my Spectre, you know, transaction history,
1783
02:06:06.889 --> 02:06:12.145
but it's trivial because slush pool just doesn't allow you to do really deep integrations.
1784
02:06:13.324 --> 02:06:15.425
So literally, all you can do is download
1785
02:06:15.805 --> 02:06:18.065
download your existing payout history
1786
02:06:18.900 --> 02:06:29.705
And then what this Specter extension does, it just looks at your wallet, and it looks at that that CSV file and says, hey. I recognize that address, and it just marks it as a as a slush pool deposit.
1787
02:06:30.645 --> 02:06:44.719
1788
02:06:46.145 --> 02:06:51.284
if we had, like, the Swan type of integration, but with Slush where it went to a new address every time.
1789
02:06:51.665 --> 02:06:53.284
1790
02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:54.659
the the
1791
02:06:55.440 --> 02:06:58.980
there's a gaping hole around anything related to
1792
02:06:59.360 --> 02:07:01.940
payout addresses or history or anything.
1793
02:07:02.385 --> 02:07:06.485
And I assume that's, you know, intentional that they just don't wanna go there.
1794
02:07:06.945 --> 02:07:13.910
But if anyone has connections into Slush, I would I would love to have that API endpoint. I think that would be amazing.
1795
02:07:14.450 --> 02:07:16.710
1796
02:07:17.170 --> 02:07:18.390
after we get off,
1797
02:07:19.250 --> 02:07:22.070
because I think that would be absolutely fantastic,
1798
02:07:22.775 --> 02:07:25.594
particularly to home miners who tend to use slush.
1799
02:07:26.855 --> 02:07:29.275
It is my my favorite mining pool.
1800
02:07:31.239 --> 02:07:36.380
Okay, guys. I mean, it's been 2 hours and 7 minutes. I think this has been an absolutely fantastic conversation.
1801
02:07:37.079 --> 02:07:39.260
I like to wrap it up with final thoughts.
1802
02:07:41.845 --> 02:07:43.225
Keith, final thoughts?
1803
02:07:45.205 --> 02:07:47.225
1804
02:07:48.770 --> 02:07:51.830
1805
02:07:52.449 --> 02:07:54.469
1806
02:07:56.130 --> 02:07:59.074
Do yourself custody, run your notes, and,
1807
02:07:59.795 --> 02:08:01.655
don't comply with any of this
1808
02:08:02.275 --> 02:08:04.135
BS people throw at you.
1809
02:08:04.514 --> 02:08:08.054
And, that's my, that's my spirit at the moment, I will guess.
1810
02:08:09.300 --> 02:08:10.600
1811
02:08:11.620 --> 02:08:18.885
First of all, I wanna say a huge thank you to our guests. I appreciate both of you and your work. It is truly appreciated.
1812
02:08:19.745 --> 02:08:21.765
If you wanna support Spectre Development,
1813
02:08:23.345 --> 02:08:30.400
and you're a programmer, go to their GitHub, start reviewing things, contribute. I know they appreciate it. If you're not a programmer,
1814
02:08:31.180 --> 02:08:32.480
go to donate dotspector.solutions,
1815
02:08:34.114 --> 02:08:35.494
and send them some stats.
1816
02:08:36.594 --> 02:08:44.280
They really do it really does go a long way. I know Keith Keith, you have a donation page too, don't you? What is your donation page specifically?
1817
02:08:44.820 --> 02:08:46.520
1818
02:08:49.380 --> 02:08:49.880
1819
02:08:51.114 --> 02:08:52.014
Go to btcpay.keithmukai.com.
1820
02:08:53.675 --> 02:08:56.414
Send them some stats. It really does go a long way.
1821
02:08:57.514 --> 02:09:03.130
I try and model dispatch off of these open source projects. As as always, we don't have ads or sponsors.
1822
02:09:03.830 --> 02:09:08.410
So if you do appreciate the content here, please consider sending me some stats as well.
1823
02:09:11.445 --> 02:09:15.785
What else? I wanna thank all the freaks for joining us. I hope you found this conversation productive.
1824
02:09:16.410 --> 02:09:17.610
Special big thanks,
1825
02:09:18.010 --> 02:09:21.870
to the freaks who joined us in the live chat and contributed to the discussion.
1826
02:09:22.250 --> 02:09:25.054
Once again, you can find the link to that at citadel dispatch.com
1827
02:09:25.355 --> 02:09:27.454
and then clicking that citadel chat link.
1828
02:09:28.155 --> 02:09:32.175
Maurice, I forgot to remind you, but we end every dispatch with a music video.
1829
02:09:33.270 --> 02:09:39.929
So you can either listen with us or you can leave while it's going. Love you, freaks. I'll hang in. I'll hang in.
1830
02:09:40.230 --> 02:09:41.050
Thanks, guys.
1831
02:11:52.830 --> 02:11:53.330
1832
02:11:54.670 --> 02:11:56.290
There's nothing in the suitable
1833
02:11:57.230 --> 02:11:57.970
more beautiful
1834
02:11:58.350 --> 02:11:59.185
than this.
1835
02:12:03.572 --> 02:12:04.072
Okay?
1836
02:14:14.310 --> 02:14:15.530
1837
02:14:16.070 --> 02:14:18.810
Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.
1838
02:14:20.055 --> 02:14:23.195
Rabbit hole recap this week will be on Friday because Marty's traveling.
1839
02:14:23.735 --> 02:14:26.315
I'll see you on Tuesday for another dispatch.
1840
02:14:27.750 --> 02:14:31.210
I have to figure out what that conversation is gonna be. I haven't figured out yet.
1841
02:14:33.510 --> 02:14:34.250
What else?
1842
02:14:36.285 --> 02:14:40.865
If you're an open source developer, if you contribute to open source projects in the Bitcoin space,
1843
02:14:41.805 --> 02:14:44.785
I help facilitate an open source ticket program
1844
02:14:46.140 --> 02:14:46.960
for developers,
1845
02:14:47.260 --> 02:14:55.855
for contributors of those projects. You don't even have to be a developer. You could be someone who'd as long as you did a commit before October 1st for those projects, you get a free ticket,
1846
02:14:56.875 --> 02:14:58.974
to Bitcoin 2022 in Miami.
1847
02:14:59.514 --> 02:15:00.574
If you go to b.tc/conference/
1848
02:15:03.449 --> 02:15:03.949
opendashsource,
1849
02:15:04.809 --> 02:15:05.710
not the best,
1850
02:15:06.250 --> 02:15:08.190
domain. But if you just type in b.tcspaceopensource
1851
02:15:11.115 --> 02:15:15.535
into DuckDuckGo, it comes up. You just press apply. Literally, just manually
1852
02:15:16.875 --> 02:15:18.095
approving those people.
1853
02:15:18.840 --> 02:15:23.579
So if you weren't aware of that, consider doing that. And if you aren't contributing to an open source project,
1854
02:15:24.119 --> 02:15:25.179
consider starting.
1855
02:15:26.525 --> 02:15:27.265
But regardless,
1856
02:15:27.645 --> 02:15:31.585
there is a discount code open source, which gets you 21% off.
1857
02:15:32.285 --> 02:15:37.860
Do not share that on Twitter. Otherwise, they will disable it because it is the highest discount you can get.
1858
02:15:38.400 --> 02:15:41.300
I love you all. Stay humble, Stack Sats. Cheers.
