Feb. 2, 2022
CD53: threats to bitcoin and the state of the network with @benthecarman, tony, and @_justinmoon_
EPISODE: 53
BLOCK: 721418
PRICE: 2576 sats per dollar
TOPICS: threats to bitcoin, aopp, kyc services, taproot, open source licenses, lightning privacy
@benthecarman: https://twitter.com/benthecarman
@_justinmoon_: https://twitter.com/_justinmoon_
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00:01 - Bitcoin mining and using Bitcoin for transactions
01:33 - Introduction to Citadel Dispatch and its format
05:01 - Threats to Bitcoin and the state of the network
01:15:06 - The importance of educating users on the dangers of KYC and pushing back on a fully KYC ecosystem
01:18:13 - The need for better privacy improvements in individual nodes and wallets
01:20:15 - The excitement around Taproot and its potential impact on privacy and scalability
01:20:54 - Using Visa gift cards with Bitcoin
01:22:15 - Limitations of Visa gift cards
01:23:50 - Challenges with using Pay with Moon extension
01:26:19 - Impervious Browser and the vision of a decentralized web
01:30:07 - License debate and the future of open source
01:56:48 - Address reuse and its impact on privacy
01:57:22 - Benefits of using Sparrow wallet
01:57:52 - Bitcoin circular economy and privacy concerns
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:08:19 PM
Duration: 7664.039
Channels: 1
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You know, I just,
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fired up
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a a miner in my house, an ant miner in my house. And it's
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just chugging away, and it's sending
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all this Bitcoin to
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Slushpool, which then sends it to my Moon Wallet. And then I can take my Moon Wallet, and I can go out,
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and I can buy a taco.
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And just the fact that I was able to do that
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is
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incredible.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your it's your boy Odell here for Citadel dispatch 53.
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Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
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You can join our matrix chat, which is,
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allows you to participate
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in
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our discussion live at citadel.chat.
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If you type that into your browser,
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consider joining us. Don't be overwhelmed by matrix. It's a lot easier to use than you might think.
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As I always start off the show, huge shout out to our supporters
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who help keep dispatch a 100% audience funded,
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ad free without sponsors, purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
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This is,
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a slightly new format for dispatch.
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As you can see, if you're watching our live video streams, whether that's through bitcoin tv.com,
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Twitch, YouTube, or Twitter,
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I might appear as the only icon
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on the screen talking.
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But in reality,
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I got a whole crew here
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in person, and we will be having an in person discussion on this dispatch,
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broadcast to you live.
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If you're listening on the podcast apps,
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I hope I hope the audio quality sounds sounds good. I mean, we have
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a very elaborate setup here that was expensive.
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So
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it cost a lot of sats. I hope it I hope I hope,
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you guys appreciate that.
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If you do wanna support the show, I now have a BTC page server up at sidledispatch.com.
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You can support with lightning
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or Bitcoin
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on chain.
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This is a nonfiat
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operation, so that is the only way you can support the show is with Sats. You can also stream Sats using podcasting 2 point o apps. I really like Fountain Podcasts
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and Breezewallet.
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I heard that Podfriend is also pretty good.
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If you're used to podcast apps, it's just like you'd be comfortable with already.
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You install the app, You load it up with sats. You search Siddle dispatch.
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Press that subscribe button,
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and then you choose basically how many sats per minute you wanna stream to the show,
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and that goes straight to my notes. So it is really appreciated.
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The freaks who continue to support dispatch.
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A lot of people tell me I can't make this work and that the ad model is the only way, but I'm looking forward to proving them wrong.
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So with all that said,
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and pardon the long intro here because I'm a little bit out of my element in this new studio,
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we have a very fun discussion,
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set up here. I mean, when I say that, we also don't really know exactly where we're gonna go with it, but I'm pretty excited about it. We got some good big winners here.
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First off, we have Ben Decarman here. How's it going, Ben? I'm pretty good. The new studio is pretty nice. I enjoy it.
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He's our,
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he
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he's our ambassador from the council of Benz. Do the Benz tell you to say anything?
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Yeah. We stand support with the Niels. We we appreciate their support and, Remy as well. This has been trying times for the Vans, but,
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we're making it through with our friends. Is Remy, I guess, is on,
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he's just on his own. Right? There's no there's no Remy counsel. It's just a single Remy. Counsel. No.
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And we got we got Tony here. How's it going, Tony? Repeat guest on the show.
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Pretty good. How's it going, guys?
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Let's fucking go. And we also have Justin Moon in the studio.
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He says he's not gonna participate, but I already have a mic set up for him. So I'm hoping
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in the next half an hour, he's not gonna help himself, and he's gonna
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walk up to the table, sit down, and grab the mic. So I'm looking forward to that.
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So I titled this episode, threats to Bitcoin and the state of the network.
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The state of the network aspect to me, I'm kinda thinking,
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like, kind of a state of the union,
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but with Bitcoin,
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where do we stand?
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As for threats to Bitcoin, I think we should start with that.
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It's been a very interesting week in terms of
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Bitcoin
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and the state or governments.
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We had
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Biden say president Biden say that he wanna do an executive order. Not sure exactly what he means by that. Not even sure if he knows what he means by that against Bitcoin.
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Then but there was, like, some Russia back and forth.
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There was
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what else? There was a couple other There's that one bill in,
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what's it? Oh, yeah. That one has, like, legal tender. Well, that that was a positive bill. There was
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there was the one Coin Center reported on
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that was included in that.
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It was one part of a big ass bill. It was, like, pay it was, like, right in the middle of, like, a 2,000 page bill,
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that said the treasury has the ability to just stop any transact, financial transaction they wanna stop, including Bitcoin transactions. Yeah. Good luck.
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As AOPP
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Yeah. We had the whole AOPP fiasco. So where do you wanna start?
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I don't even know, man. I feel like Let's start with AOPP. So AOPP was stands for address ownership
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Propose proposal. Proof pro proof Protocol. Protocol. I think so.
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I think so. I think it's a0pp.group.
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Make sure you have a VPN or tour when you go to that website.
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So do you wanna talk about what that is and and and why there was backlash? Yeah. And there's it's basically just like a like, in Bitcoin, if you wanna prove that you own an address, you sign a message.
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But, you know, you need to know what's messaging to sign before you actually do that to prove you on the
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address. So AOPP is just like a thing that I think, like, the Swedish government enforce on exchanges to The Swiss. A Swiss. Okay.
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But so it's just like a protocol for signing messages, and it's like a specific message. They have, like it's like super basic. It's just like a version number, a message,
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and, like, the address type. And then you give, like, a URL to where to send this message afterwards. And
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a bunch of hardware or no. A bunch of, like, mobile wallets and Trezor
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implemented it, and then everyone got in a tizzy.
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And then all of them, like, removed it or a lot of them did. Well, yeah. Treasure removed it. Shift crypto didn't remove it. And Shift crypto is the makers of the Bitbox. They're a Swiss company.
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Mhmm. Yeah. I think they're the main people behind it too. Yeah. They helped create, the protocol. So the thing is it's interesting with the whole AOPP thing because,
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obviously, it blew up on Twitter recently,
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partially, I think, because Trezor had just integrated, and CoinDesk reported on it. But
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Swiss Swiss exchanges,
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have been required by their government,
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their interpretation of the travel rule, to to prove withdrawal addresses, to prove ownership of withdrawal addresses,
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I believe, a couple years ago.
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I think this started in 2019.
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I might be mistaken on that, but it's been around for a bit. And and
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what users were doing was they were going and they were they were signing a message with their Bitcoin transact with their with their private key,
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which is a native operation that you can do in the Bitcoin protocol and a bunch of wallets supported, including Bitcoin Core.
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Obviously,
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for new users using, you know, a KYC
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exchange,
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this was a difficult task for them to complete.
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I'm sure, you know, a lot of these
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wallet providers were getting a lot of support requests, stuff like that.
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And the Swiss exchanges in partnership with Shift crypto, or I guess a couple Swiss exchanges in partnership with Shift crypto, were like, let's make a signing protocol
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that can just be, like, click a button, prove the address you own.
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And then Shift Bitbox integrated first, and then I guess they've just been trolling open source projects, like submitting pull requests, just trying to get people to implement that, like, URI scheme or whatever. Click the link, automatically signs the address.
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And without the KYC stuff, it's actually kinda useful. Like, if you wanna prove, it's like that you own an address or either, like you know, people always argue if, like, exchanges to prove funds or Or Craig Wright. Yeah. Like Craig Wright or, you know, it's like anything like that. And it's cryptographic
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verifiable proof. So, like, if if Craig
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is actually Satoshi, he should be able to sign a message with
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with early,
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Bitcoin keys,
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and then we would be able to easily verify that message
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was was made by someone who controls those keys,
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which he hasn't done because he's a fraud. What maybe we need AOPP so we can make it so easy for him to get it. Difficult. Yeah. So the thing in Bitcoin is easy, but this is too difficult. So there's a couple nuances here. First of all,
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the the way the regulators have it set up, it doesn't really stop anything
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in terms of, like, criminal activity or anything because it just
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even if you sign a
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even if you if you even if you sign an address and prove that you own that address,
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you're just adding an extra hop between, like, if you, like, send from that exchange.
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The second thing is,
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like, I feel like based on the outrage
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that happened on Twitter
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compared to the lack of outrage that happens with
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pretty much every single Bitcoin company keeping track of our withdrawal addresses and our personal identifiable information,
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passport photos, driver's licenses, home addresses, emails, phone numbers, IP addresses.
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I feel like people don't necessarily realize that even without the signing protocol,
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you know, 95%
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of users' addresses are
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linked to their ID anyway if they're coming in through a KYC exchange, especially if they're not doing any
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forward privacy techniques or anything. They're not considering privacy going forward after they withdraw.
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With all that said, I mean, obviously, it was great to see the pushback. I just think it was a very interesting dynamic. I'm, like, curious
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what you guys think about, like, the response. Was it warranted? Could it should it have been harder?
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Like, where do we go from where do we go from here next? Like
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Yeah. I'm actually,
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because
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they've they've had it for a while now, and it's it I don't know. I guess, like you said, the whole the article made it blow up, but,
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I I don't know. I think the I think the response was warranted. I mean, we we need to be pushing back as much as we can and and telling everyone, you know,
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that, you know, when we see something happening in the space, we, you know, we speak up and, like, try to try to get it fixed. So,
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the fact that, like, companies, you know, I think BlueWallet, Treasure, like, so many different ones, actually, like, came forward and said, okay. We're we're actually gonna remove it.
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I don't know if any, like, exchange or regulated entity that had it implemented in the Swiss. Like, the countries actually, like,
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came out and said whether or not
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they had any opinion about it because, I mean, they're not really supposed to speak much about regulations publicly.
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But I don't know. Like, the
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on one hand,
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it makes it harder for people to withdraw their funds if if the exchanges are gonna keep doing it anyways. But on the other hand,
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good. Like, you know, these exchanges that are just complying with all these regulations and and, you know, not really caring about user, any user privacy at all or any any you know, just not even caring about the users that yourself or profit, whatever.
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You know, make them make them push back themselves. If they really care about their profit models and, like, oh, you know, it's so so hard for users to withdraw, then actually fight back. I think the Bitcoin Magazine article that came out,
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kinda like analyzing the whole AOPP,
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stuff that went down,
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actually, like, highlighted a good point that, like, there has been instances where, like, exchanges have tried to go to court and,
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to fight these regulations, and then they ended up dropping the some of the regulations completely. They're like, okay. Well, this isn't worth the battle or, like, maybe this was just a broad overreach of the interpretation. So, like, we're not gonna we're not gonna fight any further. So until you actually try to get pushback, I I think I think pushback does does, does matter. I think we can try to create a change and then not set a bad precedent because there's there's another spot about regulations where if you're not doing what every other company does, like, there's no, like, laws around some some most of the stuff anyways. So, like, okay. You know, there's there's interpretations of, like, regulations, and then that's what people go for. And and if a company is, like, not doing what every other company has established as the these are our interpretations, then all of a sudden they're in hot water and they're on their own, and they're gonna be, you know, be, singled out and gone after for not complying
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like everyone else. So I think we do need pushback, and I think,
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you know, time will tell whether or not it it it, it actually works. But Yeah. I mean, I think that
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that is the most solid argument against
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something like AOPP, this this idea that, like, we shouldn't have
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open source,
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well regarded wallets,
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making it easier for burdensome regulation
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to be complied with,
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because when you reduce that friction, you're basically
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endorsing the exchanges that go through that process
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and the regulations that they're complying with.
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I I I think it it might be interesting, though, because
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the wallets that they did choose were some of the best wallets in the space.
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You know, BlueWallet is, you know, one of the best mobile wallets on the space, fully featured,
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Bitcoin only. Sparrow wallet. I fucking love Sparrow wallet.
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I wonder if there's going to be and this is just, like, speculation. Like, I wonder if there'll be
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more shitty wallets
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that add support so that when, like, a Relay,
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rela,
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I, or one of the other Swiss exchanges,
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like, needs to direct their users somewhere, they'll just direct them to the shitty wallet that has has the support.
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You know, something like
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Trust Wallet, which nobody should use,
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has become very popular, especially in, like, the shitcoin community, and they don't even rotate addresses. Like, they just give you a fixed Bitcoin address.
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So, like, when Trust Wallet adds AOPP,
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are a lot of those users gonna then go and use those services? And I really feel like, to me,
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the functional argument should be,
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as a community, being more outspoken against KYC in the 1st place. Because if you withdraw from Cash App,
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yeah, the majority
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yeah. They don't know for sure that you're not paying yourself,
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that that you're not paying someone else. Like, oh, I'm I could send a transaction to Ben from Cash App. Right?
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And they don't know that for sure. But if
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if every week you're sending, like, the same amount
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to an address, even if you're not reusing addresses, which, let's be honest, a lot of people are reusing addresses,
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they can get a pretty good idea that it's you like, they'll have beyond a reasonable doubt that it's your address even without you signing.
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No. Ben's Ben's my baby mama, so, like, I need to pay him weekly the same amount every time. Whenever I use a KYC exchange, I only withdraw to Ben. Yeah.
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So there is a, like, a there's a question there. Right? I don't know.
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I feel like I feel like the real argument should be pushing back against KYC
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as hard as possible, but it's good that people also push back about this AOPP thing. And then the other question is, like, these are open source projects.
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You can just, like, use the older version if you don't if you need the support.
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Or, alternatively,
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like,
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someone could maintain a Sparrow or a BlueWallet with the AOP. It's already been written. They already they already know what what to merge for that. It probably doesn't break anything else in the wallet. Yeah. It's probably pretty simple.
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Funny enough, it might actually, like, hurt privacy by removing this too because
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if someone's like on the exchange now and like they don't know how to resign a new address, they might just start reusing old addresses that they withdrew from that they already
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signed for. So it could actually, like, hurt user privacy that way too, sadly.
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Right. Or using one of those terrible laws Yeah. Like like trust. Yeah.
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Or even even worse, just holding it on the exchange the whole time and never withdraw because it's too it's too hard to do. And honestly, I've heard that argument. Yeah. Like, the AOPP the pro AOPP people, they were saying, like, we're doing
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we're we're helping people get off of these custodial exchanges. And and let me be clear, like, I think, ultimately, a lot of these regulations are gonna end up where we can't withdraw anyway. Yeah.
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So I feel like you just end up complying, complying, complying, and then it gets to the point where you're just stuck in these custodial loops. And then maybe, like, Cash App has a partnership with Strike or Bidstamp or something. You could send between those
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regulated entities, but you can't actually withdraw and take custody. Like, I still think that is coming.
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Do you guy like, do you guys think in America that's a possibility that
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that regulated services won't even let you won't be allowed to let you withdraw, period?
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Yeah. I mean, I I know they're working on the whole VAST to VAST stuff currently, and and, you know, once that's in place, once they get all the exchanges to support it, they almost need that first. Right? Like, you know, trying to outright ban,
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you know, Bitcoin, quote, unquote, you know, quote, unquote, ban Bitcoin,
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without, like, at least a way to, like, you know,
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herd users and herd Bitcoiners in a way where it's like, okay. Well, you know, we didn't quote, unquote ban it. Like, we can't do that. Right? So we're just gonna try to, like, keep them contained, and they can only, like, trade or they can only, like, buy and sell or they can only, you know, we know where they live, like, all the all these different things. Like, that's one that's one vector. And and I think they I think they are working on the whole vast vast stuff right now, and I think they almost need that in place before they can go, like, full full ape shit, really.
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Yeah.
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We have we have a user in the we have a freak in the comments. Mark Marcus Maximus says, it evolves into selfie check, holding up your signed message with a copy of your passport for any withdrawal. Reminds me of that Vitalik,
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picture that he took. But, also,
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supposedly, right before we went live,
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someone sent me that, like, YouTube in Europe is requiring ID checks now
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based on European law,
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to make sure you're of age,
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for certain content, and that was either credit card or ID scan. So k y c is really first of all, fuck YouTube,
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bitcoin tv.com.
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But the second
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the second thing is, like, KYC is just insidious, and it's just it's surrounding everything in our lives. Like, as Bitcoiners, we're very focused on
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it entering Bitcoin land, especially since if you've been around for a little bit, there was, like, no KYC anywhere, so it was very obvious.
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But it's literally
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it's literally
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permeating everywhere.
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The other thing
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while we're on this conversation I mean, I don't know if you guys saw the new Spectre release today.
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Another great wallet, open source wallet,
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focused on self custody, using your own node, multisig.
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You see, they integrated Swan,
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not because of a regulator, but they integrated Swan because of,
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my guess is mostly because of monetization. Like, they're gonna get a cut out of out of Swan dollar cost average users because you can sign up from Swan directly through,
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Specter. Yep. And their integration
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is
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so I fucking
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hate
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KYC. I think KYC puts a lot of you it puts honest users at risk. I think criminals get around it. They either buy or
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use stolen,
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KYC information, ID information to get around these regulations, and the and
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meanwhile, honest users are put at risk
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all all sorts of different,
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risks to themselves
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that we see in these massive leaks that almost inevitably happen because the KYC information isn't stored very securely, and it's kept forever.
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With all that said,
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I do believe
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that
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the KYC services that do exist, the regulated Bitcoin companies that do exist,
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should try their best to basically,
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guide their users to best practices.
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And Swan has
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done this in a couple ways. First of all, Swan has been pretty outspoken about providing education material to their users, including the risk of KYC. I've been on their podcast multiple times about it.
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I know,
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Gigi, when he was working there, he wrote up a whole thing on privacy and the different trade offs and risks with Bitcoin. I think the number one thing is just having this discussion over and over again so people are aware of the risk. Most people aren't aware of the risk.
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But they also have no shit coins, and they do this
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they're focused on they basically they try they monetize the stacking stats meme, but the idea is, like, a long term savings, dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin.
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Basically,
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if if you're talking about actual financial loss, trying to reduce that risk in in that regard, try and make it a more conservative product.
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And coupled with that, auto withdrawals
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so that when you're
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when you're buying on Swan, you don't have to think about it. What happens to a lot of people is they end up, you know,
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their dollar cost averaging, then Bitcoin price goes up. They don't even think about it, and then, ultimately, they have way too much Bitcoin on a service. We saw this happen with Cash App. The limits are a certain height. You know, the limits are maybe too low in a lot of respects, and you can't actually get your Bitcoin off that quickly, and you end up trying to, like, meet the limits every week. It causes this whole this whole clusterfuck.
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So Swan has auto withdrawals.
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They originally
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and I I promise you, Freak, there's a reason for all this context here. They originally had you just put in an address, and you were getting auto withdrawal to that address, which, by the way, no a o p p, but that's obviously your fucking address. Yep.
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Then they added this new feature where you could
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provide an XPub
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to them, and they would take, like, the first
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so many addresses from it, and they said they'd delete the XPUB. And they actually have this open source tool that you can do that all locally if you'd if you don't wanna trust them, which you shouldn't.
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Now Spectre
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integrated this into their wallet. Right?
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So on Spectre,
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you can either use an existing wallet or set up a new wallet. Best practice would be to set up a new wallet. And then Spectre automatically uploads the next ten addresses
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to Swan,
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which, by the way, no AOPP, but those ten addresses are obviously yours in that situation. Right?
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Should the community
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be angry at that? Like, where do we stand on that?
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I mean, it's kinda a similar thing. Like, there's no actual signature, but it's very clearly saying, like, this is my address, and I wanna withdraw to it in the future. So And especially if it's coming from Spectre, there's certain there's a certain element there where they they know that, you know, Spectre has this flow where they're sending
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There's probably sending 10 addresses.
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Yeah. So it's very obvious that what's happening there. So that is, like, basically, this, like, you know, different flow, but basically the same effect. And, yeah, people are, like, celebrating it. So, I mean,
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know, a lot of Bitcoiners just kinda, you know, celebrate the number go up things and don't fully think about it. But,
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I don't know. And, like,
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you can just simply not use the feature luckily.
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But, it is kinda sketchy to, like, put that in, like, you know, your it's like Spectre's like a a deep deep cold storage kinda wall. It's not like your mobile blue wall that you, like, take for buying tacos. It's,
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you know, this is like for your, like, life savings that you, like, give to your kids, which is, like, even worse that I think that's happening with. But you don't think if you're if you're using it if you're using a KYC service
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already, you're already using Swan,
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you don't think there is an advantage
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to
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basically,
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dollar cost averaging with auto withdrawal directly to your cold storage multisig
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without reusing addresses?
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Because, obviously, you're still trusting
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you're still trusting
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Swan with that information. They have to keep it forever. They're gonna share it. It could be stolen
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and then bought or whatever. Like, it probably will be.
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But on chain,
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you're not reusing addresses.
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And you can do that without this like, what they implemented. Like, it's not that hard. And, like, ideally, you should be, like, withdrawing to, like, your, you know, coin join wallet and coin joining into your multisig,
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cold storage. So, like, you know, this kind of inhibits that a little bit too. So you could argue that it's worse. But
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and, you know, if you're just, like,
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you know, if that's too much for you and you you you haven't gotten to that point yet, then maybe this is nicer because you might just have, like, one address saved and they're withdraw to it every time. So and maybe for, like, the total new, this is a UX improvement. But I I I think for
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in in most cases, you could probably even assume, like, whether or not the user is, like, withdrawing to a quote, unquote, their address or or not, like, just based on the amounts. Like, was it was it an entire sweep? You know, did I log in and then, like, sweep my entire balance to a wallet? Did I just do a partial payment?
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I think, eventually, like, you can have enough assumptions that,
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that it is the user's wallet. And
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I think in this case, you are right. Like, it's pretty much a 100% guarantee that it's gonna be their wallet that it, like, auto sucks you, but it it could not be. It could maybe it's your child's inheritance. Maybe it's like maybe it's like, you know, different type of,
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I don't know. Maybe it's your baby. What does it matter? I mean, if it's your child, I think.
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Right. I mean, yeah, for all intents and purposes, it's it's it's yours. I get it. So, like, yeah, there is a 100%
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pretty much guarantee that it's it's really gonna be yours. But in in a lot of cases, like, if a user's just logging in to your service to do a withdrawal and, like, it's the entire amount, then boom. They know from there that it's, like, your entire that it's your address that you're doing a full withdrawal to. Right? So,
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I see I see what you mean. I never thought about it in that case. I I do think, like, yeah, if you're gonna give your expound to to something like Swann, you should definitely be like a whole new
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a whole new wallet or your, you know, your next 20 addresses or whatever,
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should be a whole new wallet. But,
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at least with at least with, like, Bitcoin, you can spin up, like, a new address relatively easy. So if it is, like, it's a brand new address, it's, like, never been seen before.
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You know, what what almost, like, it gets to a point, like, what does it matter if it was, like, was yours or not? Like, you know, you can mix right after, and then, you know, no one really knows. You can spin up a new address. You can do mixing, all kinds of stuff. But,
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CoinJoin, collaborative transaction. Yes. CoinJoin. Not Not mixing. Yeah. Don't mix. I mean but I this is why all this stuff goes hand in hand. Right? Because we're also seeing exchanges crack down on people using CoinJoin after,
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they withdraw. So when you combine these things together,
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it gets pretty dangerous. And, also, most users aren't using
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CoinJoin.
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Most users are just keeping in custody. I mean, I have,
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and almost all of them 99% of new users are coming in through KYC. They shouldn't, but they are. Most of them are keeping it on custodial exchanges. I mean, I have friends
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from college,
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that you know, like, I find out that they still have the they just keep their Bitcoin on Coinbase.
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I have one friend who is using Swan,
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and he has auto withdrawal set up, and he's just been reusing the same address,
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for the last year and a half or whatever.
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Yeah. Your friend, dude. What the hell? I told him not to. You know, I'm just I I'm I'm honestly, I'm happy he's withdrawing. Yes. Right? And he's withdrawing too. I believe he has a ledger
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that, like, I set up for him,
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you know, like, two and a half years ago, 3 years ago,
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that he, like, wrote the seed words down ineligible
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like, you couldn't read the seed words, and then he he fucked up his ledger or lost it or something, and I had to restore it onto a new ledger. And we were guessing seed words, and we finally recovered it.
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You know? So, like,
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I feel like a lot of times we go, like, really deep into the weeds
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and but the majority of people are just getting picked off left and right. And, of course, Bitcoin is,
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at its at its core, is is basically a direct and center to practice personal responsibility, and we can never really put training wheels on that. Like, you're always gonna have to take, you know, responsibility of yourself.
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But I just wanna unpack this more. So, like,
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Casa,
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you can
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DCA
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through Casa. Casa has their own
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onboarding service now directly to your Casa Wallet.
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Casa
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Same with Unchained.
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Cas well, Unchained is more like, white label. Right? Like, it's I mean, white glove. Right? It's only for, like, more rich people.
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Rich people need privacy too, though. Yeah. I know. But I I feel like there's a little bit of a difference there because,
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I mean, if you're if you're,
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You're not gonna have, like, 10,000,000 users. Yeah. And if you're onboarding if if you're trying to, like, put in a $1,000,000
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into Bitcoin or
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2,000,000, $3,000,000 into Bitcoin,
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and you're like an oil baron or something,
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no KYC options are a lot less accessible to you. Then maybe a Casa user is putting $50 in.
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And I think I mean, obviously, I don't see their internal discussions. I think Unchained is
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pretty good about it. I mean, we're all very close with a lot of the guys over at Unchained are pretty good about explaining the trade offs. A lot of these things is, like, I feel like Bitcoiners should have options,
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but they need to be
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aware of the trade offs so they can make an actual educated decision. Right?
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But, anyway, let's get back to Casa for a second. Casa
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has a has a service where you can buy KYC,
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optional, buy KYC with fiat to your Casa wallet.
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Casa does not allow you to use your own node.
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They have a closed source app. They obviously can
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they can obviously track your transactions
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going forward as well if you're keep continue to use Casa and your balances because you're using their node.
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Worse than AOPP
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or better than AOPP?
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Oh, man.
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I mean,
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from a privacy perspective, it's it's it's worse.
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Because, I mean, they I mean, they basically
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it's a security versus privacy trade off,
381
00:32:35.455 --> 00:32:52.395
with with something like Casa or Unchained. Like, they're they're gonna see a 100% of, like, what you own, and that's pretty much we're not a 100% of what you are, at least, like, what you put on to their platforms. I know that's that's a 100% you. Right? Like, they they know it's your addresses, your ex pubs, your, you know, multisig quorum, whatever it is. And,
382
00:32:52.855 --> 00:32:54.155
I think there's some, like,
383
00:32:55.429 --> 00:33:08.775
like, I think you can sign up sort of, like, anonymously on Casa, but then, like, once you use their KYC buying service, like, you're already you're KYC'd right then and there. Yeah. I will give Casa the the benefit that they allow you to sign up under NIM,
384
00:33:10.355 --> 00:33:14.910
and you can pay for their subscriptions or whatever for their different levels with Bitcoin.
385
00:33:16.490 --> 00:33:32.160
But then once you upgrade so far with Casa, then it's like this whole suite, like, where, like, you know, they do, like, additional identity checks. Yeah. You're you're not just some hacker that's, like, trying to break in or social engineer Casa. They have your IP address from the app unless you're, constantly running a VPN.
386
00:33:32.780 --> 00:33:38.000
Right. Yeah. So I don't know. From a privacy perspective, using something like Unchained or Casa, like,
387
00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:39.520
isn't really
388
00:33:40.205 --> 00:33:47.870
a good model at all. You're you're you're you're trying to you're trying to improve your security at that point. And, you know, maybe,
389
00:33:48.730 --> 00:33:59.875
you know, maybe at the end of the day, we just have to, like, come to that decision. Like, talk to talk to our friends, talk to our people and be like, you know, what what do you value more right now? Security, privacy. Ideally, you can combine them both, but, like,
390
00:34:00.495 --> 00:34:11.940
you know, like like you said, line with your friend. Like, it's it's it's hard. You screw up your seat and then boom. That's that's you're over. I think Matt does bring up a good point, though. Like, no one's really out like, people are, like, constantly showing Casa
391
00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:25.640
and, like, at the same time outraged by AOPP. But, like, there's at least one user that's, like, using AOPP and what's drawing to an address coin joining to his cold storage on his full node. And he has way better privacy than someone that's not using AOPP that's just using
392
00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:29.720
Casa. And, you know, no one mentions that. And it's, you know, like,
393
00:34:30.020 --> 00:34:49.150
people need to, like, you know, really break things down to, like, their core. And, like, okay. What like, what are we trying to achieve achieve here? Like, sovereignty and privacy. And, like, AOPP is a step in the wrong direction, but it's not the one thing to get mad about. Or, like, we need to, like, focus on, like, the real tools and, like, you know, like, running your own node using CoinJoin, all the stuff that, you know, people aren't always advocating.
394
00:34:49.450 --> 00:34:54.525
I mean, even so, like, I jumped to Casa, but, like, this whole AOPP conversation started
395
00:34:55.065 --> 00:34:56.125
with Trezor.
396
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.619
Trezor has a buy service built into their
397
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:09.475
Web Wallet, or they they now have Trezor Suite, which is, I guess, prob I think an Electron app anyway, but it's a new Web Wallet.
398
00:35:09.775 --> 00:35:11.715
And that uses Trezor's node
399
00:35:12.735 --> 00:35:16.435
to look up your transactions. Right? So that whole pros like, they know
400
00:35:17.030 --> 00:35:22.570
that those are your addresses. It's hooked directly into, like, the Trezor's whatever flow they have.
401
00:35:23.885 --> 00:35:32.625
Yeah. No. They That also seems to be a o p p. These these hardware wallets that, like, you know, give you this whole software suite that, like, connects to all their services.
402
00:35:33.080 --> 00:35:33.580
Treasure,
403
00:35:35.080 --> 00:35:57.549
Ledger. Ledger as well. I know they have, like, an open source Bitcoin only one that you can connect to your own node, but, like, most users aren't using that. Well, you can use all of these with your own node with, like, a Spectre or a Sparrow or Electrum or Blue Wallet. Right. Well, I mean 99% of Treasure and Ledger users are just logging into Ledger Live, using Ledger's What I meant was, Ledger Ledger Live has an open source version of their software,
404
00:35:58.454 --> 00:36:04.920
that you can connect to your own Bitcoin node. That's that's what I meant. But, yeah, you can use all these hardware wallets with, like, different software that doesn't connect.
405
00:36:05.640 --> 00:36:06.780
So, like, yeah, like
406
00:36:07.160 --> 00:36:17.535
like Ledger yeah. I mean, we we can only, like, sound the horn, like, so many times on, like, Ledger and Treasure. Right? Like, at least with AOPP, like, it just came out or at least It didn't, though.
407
00:36:18.555 --> 00:36:31.490
The information just got out there into the public opinion, and then and then we all, you know, went outraged about it. But, like, you know, you're on TFC Sabre every week, you know, sounding the horn on a lot of a lot of the stuff. And, and, you know, it's
408
00:36:31.865 --> 00:36:49.765
it's kinda I I don't wanna be, you know, pessimistic and say it's, like, old news at this point, but at least it's almost like what you said, Ben. Like, at least we're not stepping in in the wrong direction. Like, Casa is like an established business, and, you know, I don't know if they can ever get away from this whole idea that, like, you know, they know, you know, some of your information because you're literally trusting them
409
00:36:50.065 --> 00:36:52.325
with, with this information. So,
410
00:36:52.625 --> 00:37:08.815
you know, I don't know if that yeah. With a key and, you know, the part of your quorum and other that, like, there's there's almost, like, no way to change that, like, business model at this point. But at least we can take a, we can stop when, like, people are trying to go in a step in the wrong direction. Be like, no. That was a bad step. Like, backtrack.
411
00:37:09.675 --> 00:37:33.110
Yeah. To, like, you know, everyone was, like, mad at Blue Wall for having this implemented, and they got to remove it. But, like, BlueWallet still has you know, it runs by default on their Electrum back end. And who knows what they're doing back end there? So, like, you know, it's the same thing. Or is this, like, you're just, like, sure. You got a small privacy one there, but you're still then just doxing your entire expub to this And their lightning wallet is custodial. Yeah.
412
00:37:33.810 --> 00:37:46.875
They got more shit about AOPP being integrated than their lightning wallet being custodial. And that's not even just new users. Like, when everyone makes their pilgrimage to El Salvador, like, half the demo videos of people, first of all, shopping at McDonald's, which
413
00:37:47.175 --> 00:37:48.555
McDonald's can go fuck itself.
414
00:37:49.430 --> 00:37:53.450
But it's with Wallet or Satoshi or Blue Wallet, which are both custodial lightning wallets.
415
00:37:54.790 --> 00:37:57.130
Yeah. And it's it's all fucked. That's the problem.
416
00:37:57.885 --> 00:38:09.849
And like, for like mobile lighting laws that are like privacy preserving, like, it's hard. It's like, there's only like, you know, you can use Zeus, but you need to set up a node somewhere else. And a lot of people don't know how to do that. And then connecting it is even harder.
417
00:38:10.390 --> 00:38:13.770
Or you can use, like, Moon, but, it has, like With 2 u's.
418
00:38:14.230 --> 00:38:17.345
What do I use? I use Zeus. No. No. Moon has 2 use.
419
00:38:18.845 --> 00:38:23.825
We had we had Jack Dorsey lead off this episode, by the way. He was the one talking about,
420
00:38:24.940 --> 00:38:32.320
mining the slush pool and then buying tacos with his no k y c sets. Yeah. And he also did a moonshield and forgot to tell everyone that it was 2 years.
421
00:38:33.375 --> 00:38:39.795
Yeah. But on on on the lightning side of it, you know, these custodians like, yeah, they're using, you know, blue wallets because I love Zeus.
422
00:38:40.310 --> 00:38:41.450
Zeus Zeus is amazing.
423
00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:43.290
That some of the new redesigns,
424
00:38:43.830 --> 00:38:46.330
that Evan's been working on is fantastic too.
425
00:38:46.790 --> 00:38:53.025
But honestly, from a privacy perspective, like with the current state of lightning, like, I love these, like,
426
00:38:53.725 --> 00:38:57.265
non custodial or sorry, non KYC lightning custodians
427
00:38:57.720 --> 00:39:04.060
from a simple fact that like I can hide like my true destination whenever I you know, share invoices and stuff. So,
428
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:15.005
right. But that's exactly why they're gonna have to add KYC. Oh, sure. Like, I don't know how they're getting away with it right now. What Tony is alluding to first of all, Tony came on the show and
429
00:39:15.410 --> 00:39:17.510
ciel dispatch 21. So ciel dispatch.com/cd21,
430
00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:22.150
and all we talked about was lightning privacy trade offs
431
00:39:22.744 --> 00:39:30.330
and techniques. So if if if you're interested in learning more about, you know, the nuances of lightning privacy, because there are a lot,
432
00:39:30.970 --> 00:39:36.990
go listen to that dispatcher. Go watch that dispatch. All the archives are on bitcoin tv.com if you wanna watch.
433
00:39:39.050 --> 00:39:39.550
But
434
00:39:39.905 --> 00:39:42.645
what what Tony was alluding to there is
435
00:39:43.265 --> 00:39:45.345
that when you use a custodial service, it
436
00:39:46.785 --> 00:39:48.640
the the the footprint
437
00:39:49.339 --> 00:39:51.920
looks like as well, if you use an on chain custodial
438
00:39:52.299 --> 00:39:52.799
service,
439
00:39:53.740 --> 00:39:55.760
the footprint looks like an on chain mixer.
440
00:39:56.155 --> 00:40:00.975
If you use a lightning custodial service, you're basically combined with all of those other transactions.
441
00:40:03.319 --> 00:40:05.099
You are still trusting the custodian
442
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:06.619
who can see everything.
443
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:16.905
But all else equal, if the is acting in good faith, if you use multiple custodians and the custodians have to include, there is a privacy benefit
444
00:40:17.900 --> 00:40:18.800
to an external
445
00:40:19.180 --> 00:40:47.914
actor if you use a custodial service. Right. Or and and, you know, and if if these, custodian, like, nuance, like, don't know your real identity either. Like Right. They don't have the KYC information. Exactly. And and But they have, like, your device ID, your IP address and stuff. Yeah. There there's some of that. So, like, definitely have good device hygiene, you know, when you're using some of this. Like, Wallace, Satoshi, there is an optional, like, sign up with email. So, like, you know, don't use that if if you're gonna use it. And and then, you know, immediately withdraw your funds when when,
446
00:40:48.775 --> 00:41:06.445
when you actually get off. So they know some of that information. Wipe the apps often. There's a lot of foot guns. Yeah. Yeah. And and then even then, they can start correlating. Like, if I wipe my device and then I, like, you know, install it on a whole new one, and then I'm still sending it. I'm the only person sending it to this one note. Then you can even correlate the 2 devices,
447
00:41:06.905 --> 00:41:15.839
the device IDs, and be like, yeah. That's probably the same person. This is the only device in the world that has ever withdrawn to this address. Right. They're sending to the same node pub key over and over again. Exactly.
448
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:18.319
Yeah. Receiving on lightning
449
00:41:19.005 --> 00:41:19.745
It's pretty
450
00:41:20.125 --> 00:41:22.065
shit. Privately. Privately. Yeah.
451
00:41:24.525 --> 00:41:26.465
It's all fucked. You run your own node.
452
00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:35.500
Well, you know, run your own node, and and then there is a there is a post on the mailing list about how, like, lightning is using you know, you can kind of do
453
00:41:35.825 --> 00:41:48.380
AOPP style things with lightning right now. Like, some people are using it for, you know, putting PII in memos and then having the user sign that. Posted that to the lightning mailing list. Yeah. That was yes I think it was yesterday or day before.
454
00:41:49.160 --> 00:41:57.375
Yeah. There was some discussion on that as well. Like, you know you know, let's not like, the it was the advocating, I think, some guy named Arm d something, but,
455
00:41:58.075 --> 00:41:59.615
there is an aspect where,
456
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:05.900
you know, memos aren't bad itself. Like, memos describe, you know, what the invoice, you know, you're paying for.
457
00:42:06.839 --> 00:42:07.285
But,
458
00:42:07.924 --> 00:42:36.000
when you start, like, putting PII information into these memos and then getting users to to, like, write this into the memo and then, like, create the invoice, what's actually happening is that invoice is basically a signed statement from your Hub key note. Right. Because memos are all signed Exactly. By default. Yeah. So you give out this invoice. It's a signed statement from your note. Like, people don't really And it's not even just explicit PII. Like, the story I always tell with MemoGate for me was that I was I was running,
459
00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:42.480
I was not running. I was participant in a poker game with a bunch of Bitcoiners,
460
00:42:44.425 --> 00:42:50.925
and we had played, like, 5 or 6 times, and I'd always successfully not been the bank. And then one time, I got peer pressured into being the bank,
461
00:42:51.549 --> 00:42:54.849
And everyone wanted to pay with lightning because it's a hot new thing.
462
00:42:55.230 --> 00:42:56.130
So I
463
00:42:57.069 --> 00:42:59.730
sent out a bunch of invoices to people, and I put
464
00:43:00.165 --> 00:43:01.785
how I knew them, their NIM,
465
00:43:02.165 --> 00:43:03.065
dash poker,
466
00:43:03.765 --> 00:43:08.025
and one of the guys paid with Strike. And so now Strike knows
467
00:43:09.310 --> 00:43:10.930
my pub key and my node,
468
00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:13.010
so they know which,
469
00:43:13.390 --> 00:43:20.365
you know, fortunately, got stolen, but before that, I didn't really have good hygiene on that. So they knew I was in the poker game and that I was the bank,
470
00:43:20.745 --> 00:43:25.360
and then they knew his NIM connected to his personal information because he paid it.
471
00:43:26.240 --> 00:43:27.380
And in his defense,
472
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:43.540
unless he goes and actually decodes the lightning invoice before scanning with strike, he doesn't even know the memo says there's NIM in it until after he scans it with strike. Right? He scans it with strike, then he sees the memo. At that point, it's already on strike servers.
473
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.460
The doxing has already been done. Right. So this proposal
474
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.300
on the mailing list was,
475
00:43:50.385 --> 00:43:53.045
fuck it. Let's get rid of these memos altogether.
476
00:43:53.905 --> 00:44:00.220
Each person in a lightning transaction can keep memos locally if they wanna keep track of what their payments are,
477
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:05.180
but they don't have to actually be transferred in the invoice. Right? Yeah. Exactly.
478
00:44:05.635 --> 00:44:20.350
That that was my interpretation as well. Like, because you, you know, you shot yourself in the foot by putting this, you know, poker information in the invoice, and the other person shot themselves in the foot by, like, scanning something they didn't even know. And then all of a sudden, okay. And then they went through and they paid it. So, you know,
479
00:44:20.785 --> 00:44:32.470
now imagine, like, you know, in this case, Stripe knows that. Right? But chain analysis a few months back, just like, you know, said that they're, you know, somewhat supporting lightning. They weren't, like, super public about how they were doing it, but there is a podcast,
480
00:44:33.170 --> 00:44:39.349
for the Casa, you know, privacy thing that they had at the beginning of the year with me and Lisa and and Nava,
481
00:44:40.015 --> 00:44:40.515
Nadav,
482
00:44:41.535 --> 00:44:43.555
where we kinda, like, came to the conclusion,
483
00:44:43.855 --> 00:44:44.575
most mostly,
484
00:44:44.974 --> 00:44:46.115
she did like that.
485
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:49.940
Basically, like, they could be aggregating all of these, like, custodian,
486
00:44:50.400 --> 00:45:06.030
you know, invoices. Like, if they're doing anything, like, the laziest thing that they could be doing to support, like, chain analysis on lightning, it's just to, like, be tracking invoices. Like, who is what user is paying, what invoice, and, you know, what's the payment reason, and where's the note it's going to? Like, that alone
487
00:45:06.410 --> 00:45:10.270
is a scary thought that, like, people there's this aggregator of, like,
488
00:45:10.730 --> 00:45:16.884
associating payment reasons with notes. And I think, like, sure, there could be, like, some use cases where, like, you know, memos are useful.
489
00:45:17.585 --> 00:45:49.115
There is there is someone on the mailing list that was kind of advocating, well, at least at least, you know, if we get into the scenario where, you know, you can start using lightning privately and you have a really, know, good access to send it to, like, a private node. And then from there, no one can see what you're doing. Like, that's that's great. But, like, the current situation is, like, you know, users are getting fucked right now creating invoices, not realizing that, like, it's perfectly it's it's verifiable to the whole world if if someone were to get that invoice. So imagine everyone just tracking invoices
490
00:45:49.575 --> 00:45:51.495
and, you know, who's paying what note. It's,
491
00:45:51.895 --> 00:45:52.795
scary thought.
492
00:45:53.815 --> 00:45:55.355
Yeah. I mean, it's fucked. Like,
493
00:45:55.655 --> 00:46:14.234
what I try to do nowadays is, like, if some if I'm gonna guess on an invoice, I would say, like, what are you paying it with? And they say strike. Okay. Oh, I put no invoice or or no memo. Or if they'd say, like, you know, oh, my Zeus or, you know, it's their local note. Okay. Okay. I'll put in the memo now so we can actually, you know, have accounting. But it sucks because it's like it makes the UX works.
494
00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:34.089
And, it's kind of sucks out. This is like ingrained into Lightning where, you know, it's like a Bitcoin address. There is no memo attached to that. So, you know, even if you're reusing an address every time, you're at least not telling, you know, Coinbase, like, oh, this is my rent payment. This is this. This is, you know, me buying drugs. You're just putting that at you're just giving them an address and it's you know, there's no context to it versus,
495
00:46:34.710 --> 00:46:38.970
the the lightning. It's all contextual. Like, the custodian can see that. So,
496
00:46:39.589 --> 00:46:43.545
it's nice. Like, lighting does have a fix for this already baked in with the description hash.
497
00:46:43.845 --> 00:46:56.850
Or you can, just give a hash of, like, the description, and then you can, get around that where, you know, there is no, like, easily readable memo, but it makes where selects where either the user needs to verify that description hash, like, outside
498
00:46:57.425 --> 00:47:04.645
or, like, a lot of people might just dumb. We just give the invoice with the that has the hash in it, but also give the the actual,
499
00:47:05.105 --> 00:47:10.500
memo. And then, you know, the wallet has it anyways now, even though it's not included in the invoice. So you need to like
500
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:12.820
it's a hard problem to solve. And
501
00:47:13.275 --> 00:47:16.015
I don't like for like a opera turn bot after his
502
00:47:16.395 --> 00:47:23.055
talk on the lightning, you know, privacy thing, I changed it. So it does the no longer it does the memo saying opera turn bot and it just says,
503
00:47:23.740 --> 00:47:27.599
you know, the, the head description hash and the user can verify it themselves. But,
504
00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:36.035
you know, my nose is the only one behind return button, you could just go through the messages and It doesn't work right now. Yeah. It doesn't work right now. Don't try it. But,
505
00:47:36.995 --> 00:47:42.660
like, the the the memos are pretty easy to figure out. Just off return back call and then the message that the,
506
00:47:43.540 --> 00:47:46.280
the the custodian could just go through all the messages that it's
507
00:47:47.075 --> 00:47:52.755
done and because those are all public and just find which invoice was there. So it's not a total solution, but,
508
00:47:53.234 --> 00:47:54.775
you know, it's hard. That's the problem.
509
00:47:55.610 --> 00:48:07.205
Yeah. It it is. But I just I just feel like if we could just remove memos completely, like And then some wallets don't even let you pay without putting in a Yeah. Lets you create a lightning invoice without even
510
00:48:07.905 --> 00:48:11.925
putting in a memo. You said, you know, sometimes you'll ask people how they're gonna pay you.
511
00:48:12.690 --> 00:48:19.430
Yeah. It was crazy. Like, even the Chivo Chivo wall when it first came out, like, the very first day, Matt all allberg.
512
00:48:19.914 --> 00:48:20.734
Yeah. From,
513
00:48:21.115 --> 00:48:24.015
I forgot where's from tulips. Useful tulips.
514
00:48:24.315 --> 00:48:44.835
Yeah. So he found out that, Chivo Law was creating invoice with PII, and then, like, you know. The memo was their full legal name. Yeah. Exactly. And then he discovered it, and then they changed the memo the default memo to thanks, Matt Albor. Yeah. So for, like, a day and a half was that PII in there. Yeah. That's right. A day and a half, every Chivo invoice was thanks, Matt Alborg.
515
00:48:46.310 --> 00:49:00.105
It's it's it's not common common knowledge, and I think that's you know, I think we need to bring some awareness to that. Like, let's just get rid of memos. Like, too many people are are shooting themselves in the foot with that. So, I mean, this brings me to another conversation, which is
516
00:49:01.500 --> 00:49:08.000
something that I don't really like talking about because I feel like it's a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, but I know it's gonna happen. So
517
00:49:08.465 --> 00:49:10.885
I like to talk about it so we can try and preempt it.
518
00:49:12.225 --> 00:49:15.365
What I think the narrative around Bitcoin privacy is gonna be
519
00:49:15.905 --> 00:49:16.645
is that
520
00:49:17.720 --> 00:49:23.020
we're gonna see, you know, thought leaders and industry leaders and companies and stuff say,
521
00:49:23.560 --> 00:49:25.340
it's hard to use Bitcoin privately,
522
00:49:26.325 --> 00:49:26.825
but
523
00:49:27.765 --> 00:49:29.865
if you use it in a self sovereign way.
524
00:49:30.165 --> 00:49:33.705
But if you use us, we will give you bank level privacy,
525
00:49:34.165 --> 00:49:35.785
which is this idea that
526
00:49:36.230 --> 00:49:48.755
the person you're paying doesn't know information about you, or the person who's paying you doesn't know information about you, but instead, you're just trusting your whole financial life with a single regulated financial institution, which is the current banking system.
527
00:49:49.135 --> 00:49:51.474
It's the PayPal model. It's the Cash App model,
528
00:49:52.015 --> 00:49:56.720
in those so called peer to peer transactions. Like, if I pay you using Cash App, Fiat, or whatever,
529
00:49:57.740 --> 00:50:02.205
I don't know what you do with that money afterwards. I don't know how much money you have. Obviously, Cash App knows everything.
530
00:50:02.925 --> 00:50:04.545
So I kind of see that narrative
531
00:50:05.005 --> 00:50:05.505
happening,
532
00:50:05.885 --> 00:50:06.385
and
533
00:50:06.845 --> 00:50:11.345
what reminded me of it was Ben saying when he asked people how they pay them.
534
00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:14.160
Because what I do when people pay me on chain
535
00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:17.440
is I always try and look back at their transactions
536
00:50:18.060 --> 00:50:18.560
on,
537
00:50:19.180 --> 00:50:20.160
a block explorer.
538
00:50:20.855 --> 00:50:22.155
Right? So you open mempool.space,
539
00:50:23.815 --> 00:50:28.955
you put in the transaction ID or your receive address, and then you start clicking through and seeing,
540
00:50:29.349 --> 00:50:35.050
you know, how did they send this payment? Did they use CoinJoin? Did what do they do? Like, did it all just come from a single transaction?
541
00:50:36.845 --> 00:50:43.025
And a lot of people pay me directly from Cash App. And I confronted some of them, and they were like, Matt, we know
542
00:50:43.565 --> 00:50:45.505
that you're gonna look at our transactions.
543
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:52.420
So I pay you from Cash App so you can't see what my Huddl stash is. I pay you from Cash App so they have no
544
00:50:52.720 --> 00:50:56.099
so that that you have no sight into there. And they basically just
545
00:50:56.465 --> 00:50:58.645
say, I'm gonna trust this financial
546
00:50:59.425 --> 00:51:01.125
regulated party with my because
547
00:51:01.425 --> 00:51:03.525
I don't think I can do it myself.
548
00:51:04.560 --> 00:51:06.340
Good thing Cash App doesn't have AOPP.
549
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:08.260
Not yet.
550
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:19.925
Yeah. I mean, there are, like, some solutions to that, though. Like, like, Blockchain, they're funding that, Chaumie and Mint thing where you could have, like, the fully custodial thing with, like, nice UX,
551
00:51:20.225 --> 00:51:22.565
also having perfect privacy inside the system.
552
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:24.640
That kinda solves it where you can,
553
00:51:25.200 --> 00:51:26.500
have these, like, you know,
554
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:38.415
these, like, easy, you know, custodians. We don't have to worry about coin joint and all that stuff, but then you can send out outside of it. And, like, but internally, you're still, like, perfect privacy, which is really nice. It's,
555
00:51:39.055 --> 00:51:41.155
Do you think, like, a heavily regulated
556
00:51:41.549 --> 00:51:45.329
institution like Cash App would would implement something like that for their users?
557
00:51:45.710 --> 00:51:49.250
So that's that's that would be the problem. I would hope they would, but, yeah, it's
558
00:51:50.015 --> 00:51:54.035
that's a long the big ask. I mean, I think, like, it'll probably start out like,
559
00:51:54.735 --> 00:52:01.040
like, you know, the blue walls and walls of Toshi's of the world where, you know, there's improved privacy in the app, and then eventually,
560
00:52:01.660 --> 00:52:03.760
maybe someone would adopt it. I mean,
561
00:52:04.300 --> 00:52:05.520
I do like, like, what,
562
00:52:06.155 --> 00:52:14.175
like, bull Bitcoin. The reason they coin join all their user funds before sending it out is because they they say, like, their interpretation of the
563
00:52:14.490 --> 00:52:20.670
Canadian law is that if they don't do that, they're hurting the user's privacy. And that's against the law because of, like,
564
00:52:20.970 --> 00:52:30.265
GDPR or whatever privacy laws they have. So I think, you know, maybe you could try to get a lawyer to find that approach, but, you know, that's But even in that situation, I mean, I applaud Bull Bitcoin,
565
00:52:31.640 --> 00:52:34.859
for actively using CoinJoin and supporting collaborative transactions,
566
00:52:36.040 --> 00:52:39.020
but it doesn't give the user any privacy from Bull Bitcoin.
567
00:52:39.414 --> 00:52:41.835
No. The user still needs to go and manually,
568
00:52:42.214 --> 00:52:51.010
you know, use CoinJoin or use another privacy technique after that. What we need are like the, you know, regulated entities, like shuffling people into
569
00:52:51.470 --> 00:52:56.285
coin join solutions, like, you know, use, you know, use samurai wallet for all your,
570
00:52:56.585 --> 00:53:00.480
you know, receives. Like, you know, we suggest you withdraw to this wallet and then, you know
571
00:53:01.520 --> 00:53:07.540
you know, do do Well, that was kind of with AOPP, what was happening with Sparrow. Sparrow was the only one with AOPP.
572
00:53:08.825 --> 00:53:14.125
They're a self sovereign wallet that has, you know, collaborative transaction tools built into it.
573
00:53:14.825 --> 00:53:15.325
Right.
574
00:53:15.839 --> 00:54:02.474
So what so let's go back to that a little bit. I mean, wouldn't wouldn't that have been a great scenario? Like, you're you're being able to, like, you're being able to, like, verify that you own this one address. Right? But then you, like, you Coin join. Coin join right after. I guess the Already built into the law. The problem is the fact that, like, they know it wasn't a payment and that it was you. At least, like, if I don't verify, you know, my address via AOPP, like, I could have just been giving it to, like, you know, this one person on the Internet, and they they were coin joining run after. So, like, hey. Don't get mad at me. Like, you know, that was just I was just paying a person for that. Like, if the regulators start cracking down, they're like, okay. You you meant, you know, you were coin joining one day. Like, you know, we're we we put you on a list. Like, well, no. It wasn't me. That was that was a payment. So I guess with AOPP, even Sparrow Wallet, even if users were coin joining right after,
575
00:54:02.775 --> 00:54:07.835
it's still it almost it's almost worse. It almost proves that they were coin joining right after Or you could do a hop.
576
00:54:08.230 --> 00:54:23.160
You could do a hop. Right? But, like, you know Yeah. Nicholas Daurier, who's, like, one of the lead maintainers of BDC pay, was saying he could he was thinking about adding AOPP to b c PTC pay. So when you're paying a service Yeah. You could, like, pay it directly from the exchange and say, oh, that was just a draw. Yeah.
577
00:54:23.540 --> 00:54:25.859
6102 had that idea. 6102 called it,
578
00:54:27.940 --> 00:54:28.440
AOPP
579
00:54:28.740 --> 00:54:29.240
relays.
580
00:54:29.540 --> 00:54:30.280
So, like,
581
00:54:30.715 --> 00:54:35.055
so, like, if you built it into the wallet where, like, you were running Sparrow and, like,
582
00:54:35.355 --> 00:54:36.575
if if we were,
583
00:54:36.955 --> 00:54:38.655
I don't know, synced somehow,
584
00:54:39.020 --> 00:54:40.000
you could just manually
585
00:54:40.780 --> 00:54:41.680
feed me
586
00:54:42.220 --> 00:54:43.280
signature information.
587
00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:59.530
And you only need it at the time of payment and, like, you know, it's nice. It's, like, a BTC pay server is gonna be online, so you could just But I still think I go back to just this all being bullshit, and just the focus should be on educating users on the dangers of k y c and pushing back on
588
00:55:00.230 --> 00:55:06.570
a fully KYC ecosystem. Right? Right. Like like like, let's say we're in a scenario where, like, AOPP is, like,
589
00:55:07.175 --> 00:55:09.915
like, forced on a forced on a people,
590
00:55:10.855 --> 00:55:19.050
and that you know? Like, what is the only way to withdraw from Coinbase? Right. At that point, we just have to an address. Like, we just have to be more aggressive in just recommending,
591
00:55:19.590 --> 00:55:27.345
you know, solutions like peer to peer or or or or or Bisc or something like that. Like, would that be Or mining. Right. Or mining. Or selling goods and services.
592
00:55:27.645 --> 00:55:34.390
We have to make that that Or Bitcoin ATMs. You know, there's Bitcoin ATMs in a lot of places, including in America,
593
00:55:35.250 --> 00:55:37.109
depending on how cut your state is,
594
00:55:37.650 --> 00:55:44.325
where they only require a phone number, and that could be a burner phone number. Right. But how many Bitcoiners do you know like, even even the hardcore
595
00:55:44.945 --> 00:55:52.109
people that are still using KYC services, and they say, well, you know, I'll keep using Cash App. I'll keep using this and that. We're not even showing them
596
00:55:52.410 --> 00:56:11.210
that we can we can do it in, like, the most self sovereign, like, peer to peer way. Like, we're we're saying all this. Like, yeah, don't use Coinbase, and, like, we're still using Cash App. Like, we're not even proving the point that we can we can do this ourselves. So, like, we're not leading by example, I think, enough. Like, I recently deleted all my KYC services. I don't use any KYC services
597
00:56:11.995 --> 00:56:12.495
anymore,
598
00:56:12.875 --> 00:56:36.410
but I have in the past. Right. So you won't sign for new ones. I've both used Coinbase and Cash App in the past. Yeah. But but still, though, I mean, I don't think we're we're leading enough example, like, showing users that, like, you know, it is possible. Like, this is the ideal. Like, we need just to stop saying, like, go to, you know, go to Cash App. Go go here. Go to Swan. Go go anywhere. We just we just need to say those aren't options. Like, none of them. Let's just just just, you know, push back completely.
599
00:56:36.950 --> 00:56:57.650
And it's hard, though, because, like, you know, like, I'll, like, recommend my friend, like, oh, you could buy it on Bisk or find it. Like, I have a friend that's an S TECHO deal. You can buy it from them, but it's, like, such worse UX than Cash App or, like, Robinhood was already KYC'd on. So there's a lot of people just, like, fall into that trap and use it. But, you know, like, you know, like, I think a part of the pitch you have to to get people to use that is they need to truly understand Bitcoin
600
00:56:57.950 --> 00:56:59.650
before they, like, realize that
601
00:56:59.950 --> 00:57:10.224
they wanna know KYC. But a lot of people, you know, they need to own a lot of Bitcoin before they started really understanding, like, why they want to own this thing. So it's it's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem, which is hard. But,
602
00:57:11.109 --> 00:57:14.730
you know, it's just like more education is, like, kinda what we need to do, I guess.
603
00:57:15.990 --> 00:57:16.730
And UX.
604
00:57:17.030 --> 00:57:18.410
Yeah. Tools and education
605
00:57:18.710 --> 00:57:20.335
are the key. Yeah.
606
00:57:21.275 --> 00:57:21.595
But
607
00:57:23.995 --> 00:57:25.295
so if you were
608
00:57:25.995 --> 00:57:26.555
there's still
609
00:57:28.070 --> 00:57:32.570
I I assume you don't believe that there's no room for KYC services.
610
00:57:33.350 --> 00:57:34.730
And if that's the case,
611
00:57:35.430 --> 00:57:36.810
then what does the ideal
612
00:57:37.855 --> 00:57:40.115
KYC Bitcoin on ramp look like?
613
00:57:40.655 --> 00:57:42.595
You coin joint straight out of it, and
614
00:57:44.710 --> 00:57:55.335
is you have, like, a chammin inside of it, so you could you know, the the exchange never knows who you're sending to. That'd be ideal. And then But how does that look how does that look in practice? Does that look like,
615
00:57:57.315 --> 00:57:58.295
is there a separate
616
00:57:59.474 --> 00:58:01.255
is there is is there a separate,
617
00:58:02.109 --> 00:58:06.349
open source wallet that the user is withdrawing to where it happens? Because if it happens at
618
00:58:07.070 --> 00:58:10.210
if it happens prior to withdraw, it doesn't really help anything.
619
00:58:10.545 --> 00:58:19.605
Yeah. You'd have to build a wallet, like, specifically. Like, you'd have to create a protocol around it. But, I mean, I wanna be, like theoretically, it's You could call it AOPP. Yeah.
620
00:58:21.460 --> 00:58:22.599
Trying to get a clever
621
00:58:23.140 --> 00:58:31.335
renaming of it. But, yeah, I mean, theoretically, you could, like, do the same thing of a coin joint instead of, like, registering your inputs. You just register, like, a blind exchange
622
00:58:31.715 --> 00:58:37.420
withdrawal from the exchange. And the exchange only knows that, like, these 5 users withdrew in this
623
00:58:38.220 --> 00:58:41.359
coin join. They don't know which address belongs to that user afterwards.
624
00:58:41.660 --> 00:58:46.160
So you could theoretically do something like that where the the exchange just doesn't know your withdrawal
625
00:58:46.645 --> 00:58:49.305
addresses. They just know which one you're in this transaction
626
00:58:49.845 --> 00:58:50.905
of how many people.
627
00:58:51.444 --> 00:58:55.444
But wouldn't in that situation I mean, you're coming from a custodial wallet, so the exchange would
628
00:58:56.325 --> 00:59:11.075
first first of all, the Tommy Mint thing you keep bringing up, I had Eric Serian on dispatch. I don't I'm not Stefan Levera. I don't know which episode it was, but it was a really good conversation on it. He thinks it's, like, 2 and a half years away or something like that. Far away. And that's, like, the optimistic take. So
629
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:17.220
Right. But I I I see what you're saying though with with the whole,
630
00:59:18.080 --> 00:59:27.845
you know, if if if you you could do something like there's a withdrawal request and and and you, you know, you you know, you're about to withdraw with, like, a whole bunch of other users and, like, people can anonymously,
631
00:59:28.385 --> 00:59:32.880
in a way, submit like, they can redeem their request and, like, submit to, like, a random,
632
00:59:33.500 --> 00:59:35.440
like, random address that, you know,
633
00:59:36.060 --> 00:59:37.440
like, the same way you register
634
00:59:38.060 --> 00:59:39.200
a withdrawal from,
635
00:59:40.335 --> 00:59:48.425
not withdrawal, but, like, the same way you register a coin join in, like, samurai, wasabi, or join market, you could register withdrawal the same way. It's from an exchange and,
636
00:59:49.160 --> 00:59:51.740
you know, just you know, you're just dishonestly giving an address.
637
00:59:52.040 --> 00:59:55.660
And But when you register with with Samurai or Wasabi,
638
00:59:56.665 --> 00:59:59.085
when you're when you're doing that CoinJoin transaction,
639
01:00:02.025 --> 01:00:04.445
it's basically a bunch of partially signed Bitcoin transactions.
640
01:00:04.745 --> 01:00:04.985
You're
641
01:00:06.100 --> 01:00:15.160
you know which address you're sending it to. You alone know which address you're receiving it to. The other participants don't know which participant it it is. Right?
642
01:00:15.515 --> 01:00:18.975
Yeah. So, like like, in samurai or sabi, you,
643
01:00:19.835 --> 01:00:22.335
everyone has, like, inputs and they give, like, a blinded,
644
01:00:23.115 --> 01:00:25.000
output to the coordinator.
645
01:00:25.540 --> 01:00:30.040
And the coordinator signs it, and then you use that sign thing to prove that you did register inputs,
646
01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:32.120
and you give it unblinded to the
647
01:00:32.474 --> 01:00:51.165
coordinator. So they say, like, oh, okay. Here's this person, I signed it there. They already signed the registered inputs. I don't know which inputs. And then here's their address to withdraw to, and then they get it. In the exchange, you're instead of, like, registering inputs, you'd, like, go and, like, register a withdrawal, like, you know, same way that you do in, like, a GUI. And then you would just,
648
01:00:51.645 --> 01:00:55.105
you know, the app would separately would request the
649
01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:05.085
withdrawal with the, like, the signed with, edge address with the blinded signature. So it's kind of like the similar thing. It's just instead of giving a Bitcoin input, you just say, here's a
650
01:01:05.705 --> 01:01:14.640
request withdrawal. So it's theoretically possible. It's just, you know, I don't know if that exchange would stay up long. They actually implemented it. Because of regulators. Yeah. Exactly.
651
01:01:15.180 --> 01:01:21.500
I mean, the key is right? I just to break that down a little bit. I mean, the the key issue that's being trying
652
01:01:22.175 --> 01:01:24.995
that you're trying to solve in that kind of situation is
653
01:01:25.775 --> 01:01:26.435
the exchange
654
01:01:26.815 --> 01:01:32.170
not being able to know what the withdrawal address is. Mhmm. Right? Because right now, the exchange knows your full,
655
01:01:33.589 --> 01:01:35.369
identity information that they
656
01:01:35.990 --> 01:01:37.050
ask you for,
657
01:01:37.805 --> 01:01:47.490
and then they know your withdrawal addresses. And from there, that information could be used to track future transactions and balances. Right. Like, if we could get something like blinded pass on lightning and,
658
01:01:48.910 --> 01:01:51.890
also get exchanges to to support lightning withdrawals,
659
01:01:52.510 --> 01:01:53.010
specifically
660
01:01:53.310 --> 01:01:58.405
blinded pass because I don't think you can just think the center has to be aware of it to be able to do it.
661
01:01:58.865 --> 01:02:14.744
And so who who knows if if exchanges would even want to support that or or can support, like, not knowing where the payment is gonna end up. But I I hope line of pass become a thing online. I think it'll be a lot better once it is, but, you know, exchanges may just, like, decide not to support that. And, optimistically,
662
01:02:15.365 --> 01:02:23.050
they should be able to. Like, Gemini supports withdrawals of blinded CCaaS addresses. Okay. So, I mean, here's so here's the case study for you. Right?
663
01:02:24.550 --> 01:02:26.170
Does Gemini support shielded,
664
01:02:27.270 --> 01:02:27.770
shielded?
665
01:02:28.150 --> 01:02:34.684
And there's somewhat Monero too. Right. So so here's that's the example I'm gonna say is Monero. Right? Monero has stealth addresses.
666
01:02:38.359 --> 01:02:38.859
Theoretically,
667
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.220
the way it's designed is you would draw to
668
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:43.500
to
669
01:02:43.855 --> 01:02:48.275
to this Monero address that looks like a Bitcoin address from but that from that point forward,
670
01:02:48.975 --> 01:02:49.695
they can't,
671
01:02:50.095 --> 01:02:53.680
tell where your your Bitcoin where your Monero goes from that point.
672
01:02:55.839 --> 01:02:58.180
There's still a massive contingent of
673
01:02:58.720 --> 01:03:03.300
of Monero users that believe that that KYC Monero is an attack on Monero.
674
01:03:03.745 --> 01:03:10.005
Like, the the is that KYC threat still exists in that situation. Right? Yeah. Because it's still, like, you know
675
01:03:10.680 --> 01:03:17.020
you know, Matt O'Dell, Bob Monero, and then they can come and knock on your door and be like They know how much you bought and when you bought it. Exactly.
676
01:03:17.855 --> 01:03:23.635
Even if they even if you and I guess the same case study could go with just CoinJoin. You withdraw Bitcoin from an exchange.
677
01:03:24.015 --> 01:03:25.075
You use CoinJoin.
678
01:03:28.160 --> 01:03:35.059
Let's say you don't shoot yourself in the foot and you use it properly, and they the exchange can't tell where your transactions go forward.
679
01:03:35.855 --> 01:03:40.515
Right. Does it does it mitigate some of the rest risks of KYC? Yeah. But it doesn't completely
680
01:03:42.255 --> 01:03:45.395
Yeah. At least it minimizes the information that they know.
681
01:03:46.320 --> 01:03:52.660
Like, sure, they know you bought Bitcoin, that you made a withdrawal, but it's afterwards that you you wish the exchange
682
01:03:53.015 --> 01:03:56.154
doesn't know or any regulated entity knows at all.
683
01:03:56.615 --> 01:04:08.810
Like, you know, enlightening your node pub key, like an exchange shouldn't need to know that at all. They just need to know that you withdrew. Sure. They know that like, ideally, they they don't know anything. But if you're buying Bitcoin from them, then they're gonna know that.
684
01:04:09.430 --> 01:04:09.930
Right.
685
01:04:10.375 --> 01:04:10.875
And
686
01:04:11.975 --> 01:04:15.355
it kinda depends, like, what's just your, like, what's your model? Like, if it's
687
01:04:15.895 --> 01:04:26.980
that someone's gonna, like, buy my name and picture of my ID on the dark web and use it to, like, steal my identity and rack up like that, then, yeah, then KYC is, like, the only threat there. And who cares if I coinjoin?
688
01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:31.815
If If your concern is, like, the government's gonna come knock on my door and try to beat me down for my Bitcoin,
689
01:04:32.275 --> 01:04:35.575
KYC then is also important threat there. But if it's like, I don't want,
690
01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:48.265
Matt to know my, you know, HODL stack, then KYC doesn't really matter, and I want to coinjoin. Like, it's kinda depending on what you're trying to optimize for here. Ideally, you wanna, you know, avoid all of those things. You do everything. But,
691
01:04:48.965 --> 01:04:52.905
you know, it's hard. If you if you don't think the government's gonna break down your door and kill you,
692
01:04:53.349 --> 01:05:08.415
then maybe, like, KYC is a okay trade off if you're not gonna, you know, take the chances. But, you know, obviously, we don't think that's worth it. But yeah. But, I mean, it's not just our it's not your own government that's the only threat. Right? Yeah. Like, we we've seen I mean, China has,
693
01:05:10.270 --> 01:05:15.550
they've hacked government employee databases of their own state employees. Right? Like, they can't even
694
01:05:16.625 --> 01:05:18.244
our government can't even protect,
695
01:05:18.785 --> 01:05:37.905
you know, state department employee databases. Yeah. They're just honey pots for attackers. So, like, you know, if our own govern yeah. Another government could come in and hack it. Right? Or or just like some some random hacker out there, like, you know, hacks into, like, just my own Coinbase account, right, and then sees all that information. So, you know, know, you don't want you don't want that either. So they're just honeypot's information,
696
01:05:38.765 --> 01:05:40.705
just prime for it to be attacked completely.
697
01:05:44.430 --> 01:05:44.930
Indeed.
698
01:05:49.444 --> 01:05:51.065
So that was a somber conversation.
699
01:05:52.964 --> 01:05:59.170
Do we have a conclusion to that? Do we have actual data for people? Like, don't use don't use k y c. I mean, look.
700
01:05:59.550 --> 01:06:02.690
If you're gonna use a KYC service, understand the trade offs,
701
01:06:03.070 --> 01:06:05.490
limit yourself to your exposure to KYC,
702
01:06:06.085 --> 01:06:14.745
don't go and sign up for, like, 8 different KYC services, which a lot of newcomers do. They sign up for everything fucking under the sun, handing their information to everybody.
703
01:06:15.500 --> 01:06:17.440
Ideally, avoid KYC altogether.
704
01:06:17.980 --> 01:06:20.240
And regardless, in either situation,
705
01:06:20.620 --> 01:06:26.484
you should learn about privacy best practices and improving your understanding of Bitcoin so you can use it more privately.
706
01:06:28.464 --> 01:06:32.805
Yeah. I think people underestimate how hard it or overestimate how hard it is or no.
707
01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:38.750
Or they think it's too hard to get KYC free Bitcoin. It's, like, it's not that hard. Like, Biscuit is not that bad to use.
708
01:06:39.210 --> 01:06:46.755
And, you know, if you go to your local meetup, there's, you know, like if you're in Austin, it's like 200 people there. There's there's gonna be one person selling Bitcoin there.
709
01:06:47.455 --> 01:06:49.315
And, you know, or if you're,
710
01:06:49.935 --> 01:06:59.715
you know, there there's lots of, like, different ways to do it. And if you try hard enough, you'll find it's not that hard. Like And yeah. And when it comes down to, like, I think in terms of, like, the dispatch
711
01:07:00.495 --> 01:07:00.995
audience,
712
01:07:03.215 --> 01:07:07.710
to, like, all the people that are listening to this, I mean, when you go and onboard your friends and family,
713
01:07:08.570 --> 01:07:10.190
like, don't just hand them off
714
01:07:10.730 --> 01:07:15.035
to a KYC service. Like, they should get their first stats from you,
715
01:07:15.434 --> 01:07:16.255
but no KYC
716
01:07:16.555 --> 01:07:18.095
and a self custody wallet,
717
01:07:19.275 --> 01:07:21.615
that ideally you've done some research on.
718
01:07:22.555 --> 01:07:29.280
And, like, a perfect example of that to me is, you know, first of all, I love, you know, giving wedding gifts and birthday gifts as sets.
719
01:07:31.020 --> 01:07:33.120
Open Dimes are fucking awesome for that.
720
01:07:33.500 --> 01:07:34.320
Or, like,
721
01:07:34.645 --> 01:07:36.585
you go out to dinner, right,
722
01:07:38.325 --> 01:07:44.345
and one of your friends decides to pay with his his, you know, surveillance capitalism card, his credit card,
723
01:07:45.029 --> 01:07:47.049
pay him back in sets. Right?
724
01:07:48.390 --> 01:07:50.089
Let them get a taste of
725
01:07:50.549 --> 01:07:56.515
of of what real Bitcoin is. Yeah. I mean, I would love to see more of, like, a circular
726
01:07:56.895 --> 01:08:01.635
local economy of of of people just, you know, buying and selling stats
727
01:08:02.230 --> 01:08:03.050
to each other,
728
01:08:04.230 --> 01:08:05.910
just on on a normal basis.
729
01:08:06.230 --> 01:08:08.730
Whether if it's the cards or whether if it's, you know,
730
01:08:09.430 --> 01:08:50.285
I'm buying something from you, and I'll just, you know, 30, 20 $20 worth of stats for it. I would love to see more local local as a spin up. And I think, like, you know, there's meetups spinning up all the time. And so it's like, yeah, like what Ben was saying, like, just walk in your meetup and say, like, hey. I'm I'm having trouble, like, you know, where where should I really go to, you know, to buy Bitcoin or or whatever. And and, if I'm trying to be, like, the most private, like, people will help you with that. Yeah. Like, there's usually gonna be one guy that is trying to sell or there's gonna be, like, 4 people that know the best ATM in town that can get you some. It's like, you know, definitely just talk to people. You know, your local community is, like, one of the best places to to find help on that. But the key is the key is the KYC requirements. Like, if you start
731
01:08:51.625 --> 01:09:01.610
like, the Bitcoin privacy discussion is much more difficult in an environment where everyone is KYC KYC ed. When I say everyone, obviously not everyone, when the overall majority of people are going through KYC services.
732
01:09:02.870 --> 01:09:05.770
That's to me, that should be the crux of
733
01:09:08.455 --> 01:09:15.035
debate and improvement. And I feel like a lot of times, like, we have these technical Bitcoin conversations about how to improve Bitcoin privacy,
734
01:09:16.200 --> 01:09:20.460
and it's almost like the KYC element isn't even really considered.
735
01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:21.580
Mhmm. Like,
736
01:09:22.280 --> 01:09:25.260
where we have and, like, I have so much respect for
737
01:09:25.725 --> 01:09:28.385
our open source developers and all the people that make
738
01:09:28.845 --> 01:09:30.145
these projects possible,
739
01:09:31.005 --> 01:09:32.865
but a lot of times it's just, like,
740
01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:38.220
it's kinda, like, just hand waved away, like, don't they shouldn't be using KYC.
741
01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:41.660
So, like, I go back and forth where, like, I feel like
742
01:09:42.165 --> 01:09:48.985
first and foremost, we should be trying to educate people on the dangers of KYC. We should be ideally having people avoid KYC.
743
01:09:49.810 --> 01:09:51.030
We want to nurture
744
01:09:51.409 --> 01:09:53.989
a circular economy where people aren't buying Bitcoin.
745
01:09:54.530 --> 01:09:57.670
They're earning Bitcoin. They're not selling Bitcoin. They're spending Bitcoin.
746
01:09:58.155 --> 01:10:01.215
All of these things help mitigate the issues, but at the same time,
747
01:10:02.395 --> 01:10:04.975
when we're talking about tools that are being built on Bitcoin,
748
01:10:05.595 --> 01:10:06.895
at least right now,
749
01:10:08.260 --> 01:10:11.080
especially when it comes to privacy, those tools should be
750
01:10:11.540 --> 01:10:12.040
operating
751
01:10:12.340 --> 01:10:16.280
under the assumption that most of those users are KYC users. Right?
752
01:10:18.005 --> 01:10:19.784
What do you mean? Like, what what's an example
753
01:10:20.085 --> 01:10:21.224
of of that?
754
01:10:25.040 --> 01:10:26.980
An example of that is,
755
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:37.775
using your own node, practicing coin control, labeling your addresses, which is something we didn't talk about right now, which everyone should also be doing.
756
01:10:38.635 --> 01:10:43.060
I think that's probably the bare minimum in terms of trying to use your privacy,
757
01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:46.340
but all of that information is also saved
758
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:48.100
by KYC parties,
759
01:10:48.400 --> 01:10:48.900
right,
760
01:10:49.635 --> 01:10:51.175
regardless of you doing that
761
01:10:51.795 --> 01:10:52.455
in practice.
762
01:10:53.315 --> 01:10:54.855
Or talking about
763
01:10:57.429 --> 01:10:57.929
improvements
764
01:10:58.230 --> 01:10:59.050
to how,
765
01:11:01.030 --> 01:11:03.690
Lightning privacy works in terms of opening channels.
766
01:11:05.054 --> 01:11:13.155
But the reality of the situation is you do a collaborative transaction to open a lightning channel in the future maybe when that's possible, which should be awesome.
767
01:11:13.630 --> 01:11:16.369
And then, you know, 9 of the 10 participants are KYC'd.
768
01:11:18.429 --> 01:11:24.045
Did you really gain much? I mean, you gained something on chain there in terms of on chain footprint, but in practice,
769
01:11:25.305 --> 01:11:27.405
you didn't gain as much as you thought you did.
770
01:11:27.785 --> 01:11:37.570
Right. So, like, the anonymity set isn't isn't as strong as it it could be, and, you know, even us is, like, like, yeah, we'll just we'll just, you know, coin join or, you know, wasn't there an argument of like,
771
01:11:38.829 --> 01:11:40.290
I don't want to get into like
772
01:11:40.670 --> 01:12:00.765
coin join wars or anything, but wasn't there an argument of, like, you know, one implementation is a coin join. It was just mostly like a single exchange, You know? So it's like, what what do you what privacy are you gaining if if, like, all the users you know, if one exchange is, like, all the all the all the, you know, outputs, then it's like, you know, you're not not as private as as you think you are. And and I think you're,
773
01:12:01.225 --> 01:12:01.725
and
774
01:12:02.105 --> 01:12:25.034
I think you're right. I think there's still a lot of better privacy improvements that we can we can have, like, on individual nodes and wallets and stuff. Like, I don't know any lightning wall besides Zeus that has, like, you know, you can tag, like, on chain transactions or or things like that. Like, I definitely love to see, you know, more, you know, more privacy stuff in the open source realm, and there was a wasabi grant, not too long ago, like, you know, designing the most, you know, private,
775
01:12:26.050 --> 01:12:29.270
lightning wallet that you could. So there's still a lot of improvements to have.
776
01:12:29.969 --> 01:12:36.155
It's just like getting the developers to, like, focus on that when it's not necessarily, like you know?
777
01:12:36.775 --> 01:12:42.555
There's no, like, business model there in a lot of ways sometimes. You know? But that was what's interesting about the centralized coordinated
778
01:12:43.210 --> 01:12:45.869
CoinJoin. Right? Because up until that point
779
01:12:46.730 --> 01:12:49.790
just to bring us back to the earlier conversation, up until that point,
780
01:12:50.329 --> 01:12:51.710
the main way that
781
01:12:52.165 --> 01:12:52.665
noncustodial
782
01:12:53.045 --> 01:12:56.585
open source wallets monetized was by integrating KYC services.
783
01:12:57.525 --> 01:13:03.240
Right? But all of a sudden, with these CoinJoin fees, there was a way for them to monetize directly in Sats,
784
01:13:04.180 --> 01:13:09.000
ideally incentivized to help their users' privacy at the same time without collecting
785
01:13:09.765 --> 01:13:12.425
personal information or taking custody of any funds.
786
01:13:13.605 --> 01:13:19.510
I think it's brilliant. I'm glad they found that business. Yeah. I would like to see more projects kind of
787
01:13:20.070 --> 01:13:22.969
try for that. I think people are a little bit frightened,
788
01:13:26.309 --> 01:13:38.770
even though it's not explicitly illegal. Yeah. Yeah. That's the scary part. Like, it's not explicitly illegal, but they could just change the law and then knock on your door. So, like, you can do it anonymously, but then it's harder to, like, get users and Right. You know, it's,
789
01:13:39.230 --> 01:13:45.890
you know, it's a whole thing. And, you know, no one's perfect. Unless you're Satoshi, no one says, like, really mastered perfect privacy. So
790
01:13:47.355 --> 01:13:48.335
it's hard, but
791
01:13:48.635 --> 01:13:50.815
I I do hope people start doing it. Like,
792
01:13:51.675 --> 01:13:52.495
I don't know.
793
01:13:52.795 --> 01:14:04.505
Sabia and Sam are doing pretty well. And, like, kinda like, you know, when wasabi was a single address, you could tell how much money they're making and, like Yeah. 1st year, they made 50 Bitcoin and fees, like Yeah. That's a good amount of money. Like
794
01:14:04.985 --> 01:14:05.485
so
795
01:14:06.905 --> 01:14:11.710
Yeah. I mean, maybe maybe lightning knows, you know, start to get into the mix a little bit. You know, you can
796
01:14:12.010 --> 01:14:15.150
do, liquidity providing Right. Like the LSPs.
797
01:14:15.450 --> 01:14:27.305
Yeah. You can have some, you know, privacy focused LSPs or or, you know, you're you can try to set up an offer term, but set up an offer term. I mean, but more so on the privacy side, you know, even just like funneling
798
01:14:27.940 --> 01:14:28.440
funneling,
799
01:14:28.900 --> 01:14:34.840
funds through the lightning network and, you know, paying for those fees. So you're, like, helping all the nodes on the network
800
01:14:35.285 --> 01:14:36.585
that are providing liquidity,
801
01:14:37.685 --> 01:14:38.585
things like that.
802
01:14:43.650 --> 01:14:44.150
Yeah.
803
01:14:44.610 --> 01:14:45.650
I think that is,
804
01:14:46.770 --> 01:14:49.510
good points all around. I think we have provided some good actionable
805
01:14:50.290 --> 01:14:51.510
steps there. Also,
806
01:14:52.465 --> 01:14:57.045
2 episodes ago, it was just we just straight talked about KYC as well. So,
807
01:14:58.305 --> 01:15:01.045
if that element of the conversation interests you,
808
01:15:01.690 --> 01:15:04.830
consider going back and listening to that seal dispatch
809
01:15:05.130 --> 01:15:05.630
51.
810
01:15:06.170 --> 01:15:07.630
Just did some basic math.
811
01:15:10.725 --> 01:15:13.785
So, guys, you wanna switch to maybe
812
01:15:14.245 --> 01:15:15.945
something a little bit more positive.
813
01:15:17.730 --> 01:15:22.310
What are we what are you guys most excited about in the next couple months
814
01:15:22.610 --> 01:15:25.910
in Bitcoin land? What should we have to look forward to?
815
01:15:26.685 --> 01:15:28.605
All the Taproot stuff, I think. Like,
816
01:15:29.485 --> 01:15:32.625
Yeah. So you just released your first, mommy blog.
817
01:15:33.485 --> 01:15:37.480
It was very good. Was it Benz Bites? Yeah. Ben's Bites dot I o.
818
01:15:38.340 --> 01:15:43.720
And you were talking about Taproot a little bit. You wanna go into it? Or Yeah. Like, I Taproot was, you know, activated
819
01:15:44.100 --> 01:15:45.080
2 months ago.
820
01:15:45.595 --> 01:16:03.245
And, I tried to highlight in that, like, just basically, like, it happens, and these are all the things that are happening next or should be happening next. And, like, we're making a lot of progress, it seems like. It's like Bitcoin's like this like, so, like, when bit when Taproot activated, a lot of Sharecoiners are like, oh, look. No one's using it. What a failure. But it's like, no.
821
01:16:05.725 --> 01:16:06.945
Like Right. We're actually decentralized. We don't just have products ready.
822
01:16:07.325 --> 01:16:07.725
So,
823
01:16:09.245 --> 01:16:11.165
so, like, the things are happening now where
824
01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:15.900
like, music too, the implementation of that just got merged. So that'll allow,
825
01:16:16.760 --> 01:16:28.070
people to do, like, multisig that looks like single sig in a clean way. That's, the, like, the actual cryptography. If library merged that, it's now like they're working on a BIP so they can standardize the process of how to do all that stuff.
826
01:16:28.869 --> 01:16:33.929
What else did I have in there? There's, like, frost, which is, like, the even better version of that. So you could do threshold signatures.
827
01:16:36.230 --> 01:16:37.770
Fuck. What else is in there?
828
01:16:39.335 --> 01:16:58.885
So but what does this mean for the what does this mean to the average Bitcoiner who who's listening right now? Like, what can they what can they look forward to? So and there's just a lot of, like like, you know, it's some of the stuff is probably, like, a year or 2 away, if not more. But it's like I thought we were about to have Justin join us. Almost. He just brought us a laptop.
829
01:16:59.344 --> 01:16:59.844
But,
830
01:17:00.625 --> 01:17:29.790
you know, it so, yeah, music and Frost is the 2 first two things I had where, like, these are, like, really important things that just, like, for 1, it helps with user privacy, whereas you're, like if you're using something like Casa or in chains, it's very obvious on chain that you're using a multisig and that can they go. But see, that goes back to my earlier example. Right? We're, like, oh, like, you can hide that you're using a multisig, but they're just doxing all their addresses to this regulated party anyway. Yeah. So but, like, say for the, like, the multisig we're in for the,
831
01:17:30.555 --> 01:17:36.495
the joint market bounty, like, it's very obvious that that You still have your key? Yeah. Good. Because I lost mine.
832
01:17:38.540 --> 01:17:40.719
Yeah. So, like, for that, you,
833
01:17:42.780 --> 01:17:51.375
you know, it's obvious that we're using a multisig there. So, you know, if we had a new sig, they they feel like you could have said that and be like, oh my gosh. All the funds are gone. It's on a single sig.
834
01:17:51.755 --> 01:17:54.494
So, like, you know, there's that nice, like, you know,
835
01:17:54.850 --> 01:18:10.190
privacy aspect. And this will be like even more useful for things like off chain protocols, like lightning or liquid or DLCs where these things that, like, just basically just is it just a big multisig on chain? Can just hide now and just look like a normal user wallet. So it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.
836
01:18:11.310 --> 01:18:16.130
So, again, that's far away. It could be very helpful in lightning. Mhmm. Because every
837
01:18:16.670 --> 01:18:18.930
every lightning channel open is a multisig
838
01:18:19.614 --> 01:18:20.114
transaction.
839
01:18:20.494 --> 01:18:34.130
Yeah. And these are, like, Schnorr as well. So we could do things like ring signatures and stuff where instead of just saying, like, this is my output, you could give a ring signature saying this I'm one of these 10 outputs. You can figure it out. So then you have, like, even better,
840
01:18:35.230 --> 01:18:39.655
like, plausible deniability. You're not just doxing exactly what channel, UTXO you own.
841
01:18:40.355 --> 01:18:44.855
What else I have here? Oh, yeah. And then I went into stuff on Bitcoin Core and how it treats Taproot
842
01:18:46.440 --> 01:18:52.040
or all soft forks. And then Liquid also activated Taproot, which is pretty cool, where they
843
01:18:53.265 --> 01:18:56.165
I thought what was cool about liquid was that they activated,
844
01:18:58.705 --> 01:19:00.165
Jeremy Rubin's proposal.
845
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:10.545
CTV is on there? Yeah. Because, like, no one uses liquid, so they might as well use the experimental shit that people disagree on. Right? Yeah. They got, like, more federated members than users.
846
01:19:11.985 --> 01:19:14.005
They're up to, like, 60 now, I think.
847
01:19:16.065 --> 01:19:18.645
But, like, that that is a perfect example. Like,
848
01:19:21.000 --> 01:19:26.620
I mean, like, when people talk about liquid, they talk about, you know, the fact that they have confidential transactions built in.
849
01:19:28.614 --> 01:19:36.715
But, you know, I'm good friends with Josh, the guy who runs the single best Bitcoin events or any event that exists, which would be stake.
850
01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:43.760
And he added liquid support. And only a single person bought their ticket via liquid, and I knew exactly who it was because
851
01:19:44.855 --> 01:19:46.315
there's a handful of them.
852
01:19:47.335 --> 01:19:50.715
I can take a guess. I have no idea. That's funny.
853
01:19:51.335 --> 01:19:52.310
Don't tell me.
854
01:19:53.750 --> 01:19:55.610
Justin says the 2nd best event.
855
01:19:56.470 --> 01:19:57.210
It's heckling.
856
01:19:57.590 --> 01:19:59.210
Yeah. So they added, like,
857
01:20:00.125 --> 01:20:03.505
things like off check ops checksig from Stack
858
01:20:03.885 --> 01:20:13.540
and, like, some different hashing. But, Ben, stop reading your newsletter. Like, what what are you what should the average big as a as a Bitcoiner user, like, what
859
01:20:14.240 --> 01:20:18.375
what what are we excited about for the year coming? Like, is there
860
01:20:18.795 --> 01:20:23.054
Are there any, like, new companies that you know that may be, like, launching cool products?
861
01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:29.360
Yeah. I mean, the company I work for, we're launching, like, some private something like it's gonna be nice where,
862
01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:34.065
where we're launching, like, really, like, the ability to buy gift cards with, Lightning,
863
01:20:35.005 --> 01:21:00.510
initially, and then building, like, all your banking services. So the idea is, like, have, like starting with, like, a no KYC app. There's very good privacy so you could spend your Bitcoin without being able to, like, you know, dox yourself and go to the rest of the world. Because, like, we have, like, friends in Austin, like or one of them, he doesn't even own a bank account and he just uses Bitcoin to buy everything, like, either through, like, gift cards and stuff. But, like, it's really annoying where he's, like, either, like, taking, like, a 6% cut buying a gift card on Amazon
864
01:21:01.210 --> 01:21:01.710
or
865
01:21:02.725 --> 01:21:10.085
or just, like, going through friends and stuff. And that's not, you know, not usable because, you know, maybe when I go, I don't have time to go buy a gift card for you, bro. So
866
01:21:11.430 --> 01:21:13.850
but this where you can buy up up to a $10,000
867
01:21:14.230 --> 01:21:18.969
worth of Visa gift cards a day and get stats back on it. So, like, you could really live on your Bitcoin.
868
01:21:21.655 --> 01:21:22.155
Yeah.
869
01:21:22.614 --> 01:21:26.875
Nice much. Yeah. I mean, I I that'd be fucking fire, but
870
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:30.980
just on the record, don't think that's gonna last.
871
01:21:32.400 --> 01:21:39.574
I mean, what's this? Davis Moon's doing it. I see, one of the Bens is in the matrix chat. Hell, yeah.
872
01:21:40.994 --> 01:21:42.534
Ben company, TBC.
873
01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:48.820
The Pay with Moon is what is what is Pay with Moon's offering right now?
874
01:21:49.199 --> 01:21:50.500
With them, you can buy
875
01:21:51.255 --> 01:21:52.635
Visa gift cards with lightning
876
01:21:53.415 --> 01:21:55.195
or I think on chain too.
877
01:21:55.815 --> 01:21:56.215
And,
878
01:21:57.415 --> 01:22:05.670
it's the same, like, concept where you could just, like, you know, if you wanna check on Amazon, you just buy a Visa gift card then check out. And, you know, you're not doxing.
879
01:22:06.050 --> 01:22:07.270
For 1, like, you're
880
01:22:07.795 --> 01:22:11.415
banking info with your, like, your credit card, and then you can spend your actual Bitcoin.
881
01:22:13.235 --> 01:22:14.615
So that's, like, the main benefit.
882
01:22:15.040 --> 01:22:17.620
Theirs is, I mean, if you can buy $10,000
883
01:22:18.080 --> 01:22:18.900
worth of
884
01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:20.980
Visa gift cards
885
01:22:21.680 --> 01:22:26.405
or, like, prepaid Visa credit cards, basically. Right? Yeah. Without KYC,
886
01:22:27.505 --> 01:22:35.210
there's really no reason to sell on the KYC exchange unless you Yeah. Wanna panic dump your whole fucking stuff. The main problem is, like,
887
01:22:36.550 --> 01:22:40.170
well, my my main problem is that you can only have, like, $1,000
888
01:22:40.789 --> 01:22:43.035
on on a single card at at once. So, like,
889
01:22:43.495 --> 01:22:54.360
if I wanted to buy, like, a brand new laptop, I couldn't use something like this unless they support, like, the purse the merchant Well, it's credit card. Multiple credit cards, and I don't I don't really see that very often if at all.
890
01:22:54.900 --> 01:22:58.200
So, like, that's You go to, like, buy a car, and you have to bring, like, 25.
891
01:22:59.195 --> 01:23:00.555
Yeah. They're accumulating over the
892
01:23:01.755 --> 01:23:04.094
Right. And then they all, you know, they all expire.
893
01:23:04.635 --> 01:23:07.614
Well, at least with payment moons, it expires after 60 days.
894
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:15.619
They've added some cool features where you could, like if you still have a little bit of balance on 1, you can, like or or a little bit of balance on, like, multiple, you can, like, turn
895
01:23:15.925 --> 01:23:21.065
those cards into, like, a single card so you can consolidate. You you're basically, like, creating a whole new card.
896
01:23:21.525 --> 01:23:25.750
So that's very, like, iffy on, like, you know, like, how are they how are they doing this? But,
897
01:23:26.470 --> 01:23:32.765
they are, and, they're, you know, they're working closely with Visa to, like, make sure they're, you know, doing the right things that they're supposed to do. But,
898
01:23:33.565 --> 01:23:40.350
my main problem with it is, like, it's just an extension extension for Chrome right now, and, like, you can't use it any other way.
899
01:23:40.910 --> 01:23:48.370
So I'd love to see, you know, something where I could, like, you know, load up an app or or, you know, just something that's not a Chrome extension,
900
01:23:49.054 --> 01:23:53.875
to be able to to use some of these services. It's hard to use an extension privately. Yeah. Yeah.
901
01:23:54.735 --> 01:23:56.994
Look. I just want a nice clean web app.
902
01:23:57.720 --> 01:24:02.940
Just give me, like, a nice web thing, pop up a lightning invoice, let me pay for it,
903
01:24:04.885 --> 01:24:13.225
and then give me the fucking card. Yeah. Exactly. But, like, companies don't like that because they like the stickiness of the extension and probably all the data collection that it brings. Right?
904
01:24:14.490 --> 01:24:20.590
Yeah. And, you know, we've been looking at, some of the history of Pay with Moon before, and, you know, they didn't have, like, the cleanest,
905
01:24:20.970 --> 01:24:27.835
track record when they originally launched with Coinbase support and, you know, some of the information they were tracking on users. So,
906
01:24:28.715 --> 01:24:29.375
you know,
907
01:24:29.995 --> 01:24:49.880
you know, have, you know, use VPNs and other stuff and, you know, have, like, a fresh browser instance. You know, like, I have I have, you know, a Chrome for just for like, I don't even use it. But I use it just for pay with me. So it has, like, literally no other information on it. And it's just it's just I just have that extension just for pay with me. But like a dedicated browser.
908
01:24:50.260 --> 01:24:51.320
Exactly. Yeah.
909
01:24:51.780 --> 01:25:00.625
It's like the only way to privately use an app. Yeah. At least semi privately. When you could probably I could figure out how to reverse engineer their APIs and, like, use it anyways, but,
910
01:25:01.065 --> 01:25:02.205
haven't gotten there yet.
911
01:25:02.905 --> 01:25:07.190
Well, we'll have a website. You could just go through a tour exit node and used
912
01:25:07.570 --> 01:25:08.870
with an anonymous account.
913
01:25:09.570 --> 01:25:10.070
Perfect.
914
01:25:11.410 --> 01:25:11.910
And
915
01:25:13.034 --> 01:25:16.894
freaks in the comments. I mean, tell us what you're excited about. I'm kinda curious.
916
01:25:19.114 --> 01:25:26.150
Tony, I mean, a lot of a lot of people seem pretty excited about Impervious Browser. Should they be excited about Impervious? I'm excited about it.
917
01:25:26.530 --> 01:25:28.790
Yeah. We'll be we'll be launching a browser
918
01:25:30.425 --> 01:25:38.770
around the yeah. We're planning on Bitcoin 22. I mean, Bitcoin 22 by itself is, like, something to be excited about. But, yeah, planning on launching our browser,
919
01:25:39.150 --> 01:25:40.930
around that time. So it's been
920
01:25:41.710 --> 01:25:51.235
a it's been a lot of hard work. You and everyone else is trying to launch things for the comp. I know. Like, I'm I I probably shouldn't be, like, spending so much time sitting on a podcast. I should be coding. But,
921
01:25:52.770 --> 01:25:55.730
but, yeah, there's there's there's just been a lot of,
922
01:25:56.330 --> 01:26:01.730
a lot of crazy ideas that we've had over the last, like, you know, since since I joined last year. And,
923
01:26:02.575 --> 01:26:08.915
you know, I'm really, really looking forward to kind of just seeing, like, the vision of the whole, like, decentralized peer to peer web, like, take place
924
01:26:09.295 --> 01:26:14.219
just to just to see if it you know, if we can actually bring this to for, for for for
925
01:26:15.900 --> 01:26:18.560
bring it to bring it to to the market and see.
926
01:26:19.900 --> 01:26:24.505
Don't worry. I don't know. Fruition. I'm fruition. There you go. Thank you. I'm a few drinks in. But,
927
01:26:25.205 --> 01:26:29.780
just trying to see if, you know, we can we can bring, like, this whole, like, peer to peer and then, you know,
928
01:26:30.579 --> 01:26:33.880
you know, use the whole Bitcoin Lightning Network as part of it.
929
01:26:35.139 --> 01:26:36.039
So how does
930
01:26:36.500 --> 01:26:38.679
Google Docs the Google Docs work?
931
01:26:39.114 --> 01:26:46.014
You're just gonna have to find out. But Like Google Docs without Google? What was it? Google Docs without Google? I think it was something like that.
932
01:26:46.829 --> 01:26:54.369
Right. I mean, a lot of that is, like, instead of just going PayPal without PayPal. Right. Like, instead of using these these third parties, like, you're you're communicating,
933
01:26:54.835 --> 01:27:04.530
like, especially, like, on the Google Docs part, like, you know, you know, being able to collaborate on documents, like, having that without Google servers. Like, you, you know, you can do peer to peer
934
01:27:05.010 --> 01:27:22.755
collaborative editing. Like, you know, so that way, like, our docs like, we had this problem, like, a few few months ago. We were, like, trying to, like, come up with, like, ideas about how to, like, you know, to do this one privacy project we wanted to do. And we're like, how do we collaborate on this document? Like, what's the most privacy Yeah. Privacy way privacy preserving way to do it? And,
935
01:27:23.460 --> 01:27:27.719
you know, we gave up and use GitHub. We just use GitHub anyways. You know, but,
936
01:27:28.579 --> 01:27:46.580
you know, things along those lines. So, like, it's not just, you know, Google Docs or your Zoom that that we wanna enable. Like, the whole idea that we're instead of going to, you know, centralized third parties for not only our identity, but also all the services we use. Like, we can do a lot of that in a peer to peer way.
937
01:27:47.440 --> 01:27:54.625
So that's kind of, like, the vision that we're we're kinda going for. And then there was, like, a little bit of controversy about the fact that
938
01:27:56.650 --> 01:28:06.545
Impervious is not open source yet. Right. Well, we haven't launched yet. So Yeah. Yeah. Will you be? Yeah. We will. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Will, like, source viewable or false?
939
01:28:07.245 --> 01:28:13.344
I don't think, I don't think we've announced, what, like, a license or that we'll be using yet, but,
940
01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:28.295
yeah, it definitely will be open source. I mean, no one's gonna run a browser unless it's open source. Right? Like, that would be that would be idiotic. So As in source views viewable. At at at, you know, at the very least. Right? Like, at the very least, it at least needs to be that. But, you know, I'm I'm,
941
01:28:28.835 --> 01:28:31.739
you know, we'll tell you. Think? Do you think we should be calling,
942
01:28:32.679 --> 01:28:42.204
do you think we should be calling things open source if they're source viewable, or is should that distinction be made as open source is a non restricted license and source viewable is a restricted
943
01:28:42.905 --> 01:28:48.030
I think it's Viewable license. Sources, you can view the code. Free open sources, you can view and edit the code.
944
01:28:48.969 --> 01:28:52.010
That's my opinion. That's what I always operated under, but
945
01:28:53.055 --> 01:29:02.095
Yeah. I think I've been swayed a bit. I I think we should just say fuck it to all the licenses and just say, like, if the source code's out there, just fucking use it. Like, I think I think we're
946
01:29:02.680 --> 01:29:29.215
I don't know. I think licenses need to go. I think like information wants to be free. Like, if the code is out there, even if it doesn't like if if something doesn't have a license at all, it's like the most restrictive ever. Like, I don't even think you can look at it. Like, it's just like, it's just it's just default. So like, no one can use this like, and if someone doesn't have a license and someone else, like, collaborates and merges some code into it, then it's like you can't even use it because you just added someone's code that doesn't have a license. And it's just the worst thing that there possibly could be.
947
01:29:29.675 --> 01:29:35.035
But so I think we just say, you know, fuck it to licenses. Like, if code is out there, like, just fucking run it.
948
01:29:35.755 --> 01:29:41.460
But, that's just my my own opinion there. Does that mean impervious is Look at source? Look at that matrix notification.
949
01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:44.275
Spook changed their avatar, changed their name, and left.
950
01:29:46.995 --> 01:29:47.815
It's perfect.
951
01:29:51.715 --> 01:29:55.639
I mean, we probably have spooks in this room right now. I'm I wanna have,
952
01:29:56.440 --> 01:30:02.675
I'm, like, pretty involved in the programming for the open source stage at Bitcoin 2022, and I wanna
953
01:30:03.135 --> 01:30:03.635
have
954
01:30:04.975 --> 01:30:07.235
a I wanna have a license debate on stage.
955
01:30:07.540 --> 01:30:13.800
Yeah. So all the hardware wallets get on stage. Like, a thousand people in the audience, and just everyone just argues over
956
01:30:14.875 --> 01:30:16.415
over software licenses.
957
01:30:16.715 --> 01:30:21.215
It's like a boxing match afterwards or something. Or we can put them in a ring or a cage or something.
958
01:30:22.780 --> 01:30:23.740
Yeah. No.
959
01:30:24.140 --> 01:30:25.520
Yeah. That that whole
960
01:30:26.060 --> 01:30:36.114
I don't know if we wanna get into that at all, but the whole thing with cold card and Let's get into it. Session. Alright. Like Since you guys aren't really excited about anything coming up this year.
961
01:30:36.790 --> 01:30:39.770
Pretty excited about about about a lot of things, but,
962
01:30:40.150 --> 01:30:48.125
I don't know. Like, I I don't know. I I think it was, like, Citadel dispatch episode, like, 2 or something with, with with Paul Miller talking about
963
01:30:48.425 --> 01:30:48.865
licenses.
964
01:30:49.305 --> 01:30:51.465
Paul. Yeah. No. That was that was a good one.
965
01:30:52.265 --> 01:30:54.490
But I don't know. I think I think the
966
01:30:55.050 --> 01:31:03.470
there's no easy way to go about it. I mean, even when you look into the The node 1 was a really good license to be. Yes. Love that even though, you know, the one of the most contentious
967
01:31:03.954 --> 01:31:04.775
node licenses
968
01:31:05.155 --> 01:31:06.934
didn't didn't join that conversation.
969
01:31:07.954 --> 01:31:11.014
Yeah. But star 9 has a similar license to them. Right.
970
01:31:11.360 --> 01:31:18.260
Yeah. Exactly. And they were there. That was a good mad holler. Like, the more I look into, like, the whole g b g p v,
971
01:31:18.639 --> 01:31:20.415
l 3 or GPLv3.
972
01:31:20.875 --> 01:31:22.094
Sorry. I can't even say it right.
973
01:31:22.554 --> 01:31:38.230
The more I look into that, the more I'm the more I'm just like, you know, you you you I like gplv3. 3. Right. But even you as the author yourself, like, you you, like, restrict what even you do. Talk about let's talk about Right. So what GPL v 3 is. So you have
974
01:31:38.915 --> 01:31:43.335
you have the crown jewel of open licenses is the MIT license,
975
01:31:44.114 --> 01:31:45.895
which is what Bitcoin Core uses,
976
01:31:46.620 --> 01:31:48.320
which is what BlueWallet uses.
977
01:31:48.860 --> 01:31:50.400
Bunch of projects use it.
978
01:31:51.020 --> 01:31:54.320
That means you can do anything you fucking want with the code.
979
01:31:55.020 --> 01:31:55.520
Right?
980
01:31:56.245 --> 01:31:57.945
Then you have GPLv3,
981
01:31:59.525 --> 01:32:07.570
which says that any derivative works. You can do anything with the code, but any derivative works you do with it need to also be GPLv3.
982
01:32:07.949 --> 01:32:08.849
They have to maintain
983
01:32:09.869 --> 01:32:11.969
the the license of the code they borrowed.
984
01:32:12.325 --> 01:32:21.625
And then you have, like, a whole smattering of restrictive licenses that dictate all these different things. You can't use it commercially. You can't modify it at all. Bunch of different variations
985
01:32:22.070 --> 01:32:28.730
from that point on. Now you want me to give you so the the argument you're you just made the argument against GPLv3.
986
01:32:29.784 --> 01:32:32.764
Well You wanna make the argue make the argument against GPLv3,
987
01:32:33.224 --> 01:32:40.130
and then I will make the argument for GPLv3. Well, one of the things that did happen, you know, I think all licenses should go away.
988
01:32:40.830 --> 01:32:47.550
One of the things that did end up happening is, like, you know, MVK wanted to change his license away from from GPO, and,
989
01:32:49.485 --> 01:32:58.270
he so, you know, if there was a contributor on a certain file, he actually, like, needs to get permission from all the authors to be able to do that. So,
990
01:32:58.730 --> 01:33:02.430
like, he doesn't But he changed he changed it going forward,
991
01:33:03.130 --> 01:33:04.750
not the not the historical
992
01:33:05.050 --> 01:33:14.025
code base. You can't change it after the fact. From what I've read, he does not have the permission to change that code base or even going forward without
993
01:33:14.325 --> 01:33:14.825
without
994
01:33:15.260 --> 01:33:18.000
the authors all the authors that contributed
995
01:33:19.420 --> 01:33:24.960
from from what I read. Like, so like, because he just took he just took GPL code,
996
01:33:25.295 --> 01:33:25.795
and
997
01:33:26.095 --> 01:33:27.955
he licensed it under a different license.
998
01:33:29.055 --> 01:33:30.755
The new code, not the old code.
999
01:33:31.455 --> 01:33:38.510
But it it was derived from the old code. He just, you can imagine if he just did a whole complete hard fork and then made a new license.
1000
01:33:39.610 --> 01:33:47.985
You know, if you think That kinda makes sense to me. Right. So he took GPL v 3 because the whole point of GPL v 3 is that He took GPL v 3 code.
1001
01:33:48.285 --> 01:33:49.650
I will not say that right.
1002
01:33:49.969 --> 01:33:53.330
And which was, you know, quote, unquote, his. Called GPL going forward.
1003
01:33:54.050 --> 01:34:02.574
Quote, unquote, his. And then he turned around and took that code and and and, you know, had a more And the whole reason this happened was because another project
1004
01:34:02.875 --> 01:34:03.534
came out,
1005
01:34:04.955 --> 01:34:05.455
after
1006
01:34:06.155 --> 01:34:06.655
after
1007
01:34:07.034 --> 01:34:08.255
NVK and his partner,
1008
01:34:08.570 --> 01:34:14.830
Peter, spent all these years building out this hardware wallet, best in class hardware wallet, everyone loved it,
1009
01:34:18.545 --> 01:34:24.725
Another company came out and just took the exact same code base. They were like, we're just gonna make different hardware,
1010
01:34:25.080 --> 01:34:29.260
but we're gonna use the same code base, and then raised a bunch of VC money
1011
01:34:29.960 --> 01:34:33.180
off of that pre product without even releasing anything.
1012
01:34:34.105 --> 01:34:37.804
I mean, now they've released something, but they at that point, they didn't.
1013
01:34:38.665 --> 01:34:39.885
And that was a,
1014
01:34:44.010 --> 01:34:46.190
panic's the wrong word, but that was a
1015
01:34:47.369 --> 01:34:47.869
Reaction?
1016
01:34:48.170 --> 01:34:50.830
Yeah. Like, a a quick reaction to that.
1017
01:34:51.205 --> 01:34:56.585
I would say it was a bad reaction. I've been pretty consistent about that. Even when MBK is on the show, MBK is a friend.
1018
01:34:58.900 --> 01:35:10.585
Like, I think he should've just taken the high road. We have the better wallet, just kept his license as is. That's a whole different argument than whether or not he's allowed to change his license. Right. Okay. So you wanna hear my argument Yeah. For
1019
01:35:10.965 --> 01:35:17.305
GPL v 3 over MIT? Yeah. Because this is something that people so I had SeedSigner on the show,
1020
01:35:18.070 --> 01:35:20.570
when SeedSigner was a very little project, and now,
1021
01:35:21.350 --> 01:35:25.610
they've grown into quite a big community, which is awesome to see. I fucking love SeedSigner.
1022
01:35:26.675 --> 01:35:29.415
I love what they're doing over there in terms of building, like,
1023
01:35:30.035 --> 01:35:32.615
a open source hardware wallet with off the shelf parts.
1024
01:35:33.640 --> 01:35:39.500
He had to figure out what license he was gonna use, and he had a bunch of people screaming in his ear, and he chose MIT.
1025
01:35:40.280 --> 01:35:42.450
And he was on air right before he chose the license,
1026
01:35:44.275 --> 01:35:47.015
with me on dispatch, and I told him to do GPLv3.
1027
01:35:48.195 --> 01:35:49.574
And the reason is
1028
01:35:50.275 --> 01:35:52.695
is because if you do the MIT license,
1029
01:35:54.969 --> 01:35:59.630
like, Apple can come in and just make they could take everything from seed signer,
1030
01:36:00.010 --> 01:36:01.790
add a few cherries on top,
1031
01:36:02.275 --> 01:36:03.895
make it all closed source,
1032
01:36:05.395 --> 01:36:09.415
literally the exact opposite of contributing everything back, just not even open the code,
1033
01:36:10.219 --> 01:36:13.040
And they could be like, this is the Apple Bitcoin wallet.
1034
01:36:13.500 --> 01:36:16.960
And they can just take all of that and not make it open source. But if it's GPLv3,
1035
01:36:18.324 --> 01:36:21.304
then if they take that code, they're legally required
1036
01:36:21.844 --> 01:36:22.824
to keep
1037
01:36:23.685 --> 01:36:24.985
their derivative work
1038
01:36:25.605 --> 01:36:26.105
as
1039
01:36:26.490 --> 01:36:26.990
GPLv3.
1040
01:36:27.690 --> 01:36:29.950
So I see a situation
1041
01:36:30.330 --> 01:36:30.830
where
1042
01:36:31.370 --> 01:36:36.030
a lot of our Bitcoin, our favorite Bitcoin open source projects, are gonna basically get
1043
01:36:39.295 --> 01:36:45.795
they're gonna get picked off 1 by 1 and combined into larger tech projects run by, like, all these, you know,
1044
01:36:46.400 --> 01:36:47.620
massive tech companies.
1045
01:36:48.240 --> 01:36:57.255
And I have I'm not gonna name names, but, like, I've seen some oh, gee. I we have Paul and the our good friend Paul in the comments
1046
01:36:57.635 --> 01:36:59.255
telling me I'm wrong and dumb.
1047
01:36:59.635 --> 01:37:01.414
We've had this argument many times.
1048
01:37:02.890 --> 01:37:03.630
There are
1049
01:37:04.730 --> 01:37:06.110
some there are some,
1050
01:37:06.890 --> 01:37:13.025
providers of open source grants that will not give open source grants to GPLv3. They ask for you to change it to MIT.
1051
01:37:14.284 --> 01:37:14.605
Mhmm.
1052
01:37:15.324 --> 01:37:16.625
Because I'm pretty sure
1053
01:37:18.180 --> 01:37:19.400
if if it's GPL,
1054
01:37:19.780 --> 01:37:22.440
you can go to MIT, but you can't go
1055
01:37:22.980 --> 01:37:25.800
from GPL to more closed. You can go to more open.
1056
01:37:26.565 --> 01:37:28.264
And they've asked projects
1057
01:37:28.565 --> 01:37:29.705
to go to MIT
1058
01:37:30.085 --> 01:37:34.505
Mhmm. To receive the grant funding. And why would they do that unless they wanted to
1059
01:37:35.640 --> 01:37:38.940
have, you know, just go to town with that code?
1060
01:37:39.320 --> 01:37:45.020
Right. It does, like, incentivize you to go back and contribute, though, like, I guess either way. But, like,
1061
01:37:45.785 --> 01:37:51.485
so, like, at the Bitcoin company, like, we're we're using Bitcoin s in the back end, which is a Scala library in Bitcoin.
1062
01:37:51.865 --> 01:38:25.385
And that's, has an MIT license. So those GPL 3, we'd have to open source our back end code, which obviously don't wanna do. So, like, you know, but because that we use Bitcoin s in the back end, I go back and contribute to the projects all the time to add things I need. So, like, you know, there are incentives there where, like, you know, if this is, like, GPL 3, now you literally can't use this in our closed source back end and stuff like that. Right. I think it goes back to, like, what's your what's your motive behind whatever project it is that you're trying to or even just your philosophy of life. Right? Like, here we are. BTC pay servers, MIT.
1063
01:38:26.005 --> 01:38:26.505
Right.
1064
01:38:27.045 --> 01:38:29.365
Right? Yeah. Now So that means that means that means,
1065
01:38:30.460 --> 01:38:38.985
going back to, like, Benson Aero, that means, like, Tesla could use it in their back end. And, like, Tesla was actually trying to plan on, like they were doing audits on it, and then they eventually But they could still use
1066
01:38:40.905 --> 01:38:57.574
it if it was GPLv3. They would just have to They would have to open source their whole, like, purchasing system that they use it. Well, if they if they use BTCPay for for the the portions of the open source code they use would have to be open source. Okay. Well, they would probably just end up using something like, you know, Stripe in the end. Right? But there's but what happens if
1067
01:38:58.195 --> 01:39:01.094
there's there's a clear scenario where, like, Stripe comes out
1068
01:39:01.715 --> 01:39:08.360
with just a closed source version of BTC pay server with a few cherries on top Right. And then dominates the market,
1069
01:39:09.300 --> 01:39:22.120
and it does more payment processing than BTC pay does. I I think I think it goes back to, like, people And doesn't actually fund the developers. They don't actually even go and fund the developers that are building BTC pay server. They're just a leech on that system.
1070
01:39:23.699 --> 01:39:44.190
I I I think once information is out there, information is out there. And I don't think a license, like, put on top. I don't think this government enforced code, it should be a thing. I think, like, I think IP is bullshit. I think government I agree with that. Code and licenses is bullshit. If you write code and you publish it on the Internet somewhere, it is out there for anyone to use at any time,
1071
01:39:44.810 --> 01:40:28.125
end of story. So, like, this whole, like, license debate. Like, I like to theorize about some things, but, like, the fact that, like, NVK, like, can't just switch GPL. You know? Well, he did, but, you know, there's some legality. But that's all bullshit anyway. Right. Like, I think I think it's all bullshit. I think information's out there, and I don't like, if you're trying to, like, be restrictive on code, then I think I think it's bullshit. And like to be fair, like, sure, I run it. I work at a company and will probably have a license on it, whatever. But like, I think my own philosophy in life is just like if code is out there codes out there like, yeah. You're just saying all this and the purpose is about to release a source of people to buy it. Well, I don't know what The highly restricted license. You know, we don't know what their license is gonna be yet. It's not it's not out there, but so don't say it's gonna be a highly restrictive license. But,
1072
01:40:29.324 --> 01:40:31.505
Prove me wrong, Tony. Prove me wrong.
1073
01:40:31.885 --> 01:40:32.385
But,
1074
01:40:32.844 --> 01:40:34.449
you know, I don't
1075
01:40:34.750 --> 01:41:20.645
know. I don't I don't have a I don't have a you know, if I'm doing something on my own self, like, I, you know, I hope to license is just like, hey. I don't know. I would love to submit code and be like, you know, there's no license. If you want if you wanna use this code, like, you know, don't worry about the law. Like like, be on that. Stuff like that. Right? Well, I mean, MIT kinda fits that bill, but also, like, unlicensed. Right? Or I'm you're literally, like, you're writing paragraphs of legal code when or sorry, legal legal paragraph. Like, copy and paste the MIT license. Right. But you're you're It's control c, control v or whatever. I know. But, like, you're you're stating something, and I think, like, the whole idea of information should be free. Like, that's it's it's free. It's out there. Like, source viewable or not. Like, the information is free. Go go fucking use it. Who cares what the government thinks? To be fair, like, if you had, like, say, like, something like cold card, it's, like, source viewable.
1076
01:41:21.105 --> 01:41:24.565
If you, like, just went and implement that in your closed source back end, like,
1077
01:41:25.105 --> 01:41:38.295
they're probably never gonna know. No one know. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it'd have to like, either get leaked online or, like, some lawyers starts looking through the code and throws a hissy fit. But, like, reality, that that doesn't happen. Like, even, like I think it was on Twitter last week.
1078
01:41:38.675 --> 01:41:39.895
Rodolfo was like,
1079
01:41:40.675 --> 01:41:42.535
saying Foundation stole some of their
1080
01:41:43.075 --> 01:41:44.855
their non open source code. And
1081
01:41:45.160 --> 01:41:49.820
I was like, well, okay. And what are you gonna do? Like, get lawyers involved? Like, this is gonna be more of a headache than it's worth.
1082
01:41:50.200 --> 01:42:00.295
So Stealing code. That's what we're talking about. Stealing code that was published on the Internet. That's what we're talking about here. Like, this it's all it's all bullshit. Like The other interesting thing in this
1083
01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:02.360
debate or whatever is,
1084
01:42:03.480 --> 01:42:07.500
there's actually precedent in the Bitcoin hardware wallet space because Eric Voorhees
1085
01:42:08.505 --> 01:42:10.925
took treasure code and made the keep key.
1086
01:42:11.625 --> 01:42:12.525
Mhmm. And I
1087
01:42:12.825 --> 01:42:15.325
and the treasure guys never closed their code
1088
01:42:15.920 --> 01:42:22.900
over it. And, but I think they thought about it. There was, like, a whole back and forth about it. And, like, you hear it a lot. Like, exodus,
1089
01:42:24.735 --> 01:42:26.195
isn't even source viewable.
1090
01:42:27.615 --> 01:42:28.995
A lot of people use Exodus,
1091
01:42:29.615 --> 01:42:31.875
and their argument on their website
1092
01:42:32.910 --> 01:42:34.290
in the FAQ section
1093
01:42:35.550 --> 01:42:37.490
is, if we make it source viewable,
1094
01:42:38.350 --> 01:42:39.410
there'll be copycats
1095
01:42:40.375 --> 01:42:43.034
that trick our users and steal their funds or whatever.
1096
01:42:45.494 --> 01:43:07.895
I just I mean, it does happen. I know, like, you know, lots of wallets get, like, or like, Wasabi had like 1,000 on, like, Google hits of us, like, changing the a's like an a with an asterisk. And then you download, it looks like it and steals your money. Like, it is possible, but, you know, yeah, fuck that. Like What they call the light they have, like, a light coin fork of it that was called mustard wallet, I think, or something. Yeah. Mustard wallet.
1097
01:43:08.760 --> 01:43:28.770
I don't know. Like, if you're just, like I don't know. I think the honest is on the users there. Like, they should just, you know, make sure that they're installing the right thing correctly. Right? Like, like, we're Bitcoiners. Right? We're supposed to be, like, you know, fuck the law. Fuck what the government says. Right? And here we are, like, suing each other and saying this is this license and that license and this legal text and that legal text. It's all
1098
01:43:29.150 --> 01:43:30.370
it's all a bunch of bullshit.
1099
01:43:30.910 --> 01:43:37.395
I'm gonna fork impervious and call it pervious browser. Do what you want, man. I I I personally will not sue you. I'll tell
1100
01:43:37.975 --> 01:43:38.475
you
1101
01:43:39.055 --> 01:43:39.555
that.
1102
01:43:40.495 --> 01:43:41.315
But yeah.
1103
01:43:43.215 --> 01:43:48.980
Well, that was a really good discussion to have. I'm glad we had that. I still think GPO v three is the best license.
1104
01:43:50.960 --> 01:43:53.680
You guys start writing some code and then But it it no. It
1105
01:43:54.320 --> 01:44:03.605
yeah. Right. That's true. It it matters what the project is. Right? Like, obviously, for something like Bitcoin Core, it should be MIT. It should be as free as possible. Right?
1106
01:44:05.670 --> 01:44:09.290
But I'm torn on whether or not something like BTC pay server should be MIT.
1107
01:44:10.230 --> 01:44:20.135
Yeah. I'm glad Vivek found that funny. Yeah. Do you wanna know my license and what it would be? And Justin found it funny too. That's his contribution to the chat. I hope people can hear him laughing in the background.
1108
01:44:20.730 --> 01:44:23.150
It is your award champ? Yeah. So,
1109
01:44:23.770 --> 01:44:26.670
if I had a you know, I'm gonna start applying this license
1110
01:44:27.290 --> 01:44:28.735
on a lot of things. But,
1111
01:44:29.295 --> 01:44:31.955
It's your new license. Right? It's my new license.
1112
01:44:32.975 --> 01:44:45.370
May you do good and not evil. May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others. May you share freely, never taking more than you give. Assume nothing works, and you may be pleasantly surprised. And when it breaks, you get to keep both pieces.
1113
01:44:45.735 --> 01:44:46.235
It's
1114
01:44:46.614 --> 01:44:48.875
a lot of inspiration from, like, you know, SQL,
1115
01:44:50.135 --> 01:44:58.210
you know, principles a while back. Feel like there's a lot of legal holes in your fucking go good. Like, it's like sort of a sort of a middle ground between,
1116
01:44:58.690 --> 01:45:02.855
you know, I'm not gonna, like, legally, like, say something. Right? But I'm just like, hey. You know?
1117
01:45:03.175 --> 01:45:06.875
Use this if you want. It's probably it probably doesn't work anyways, so who cares?
1118
01:45:09.335 --> 01:45:14.940
I love it. Well, I mean, I I'll say one thing. I do love the passion about all of it. That's great.
1119
01:45:19.400 --> 01:45:19.900
Yeah.
1120
01:45:20.520 --> 01:45:21.420
I don't know.
1121
01:45:25.545 --> 01:45:26.505
Vivek Vivek thinks your,
1122
01:45:27.945 --> 01:45:31.300
your life is poetic as fuck. Thank you. Bye bye.
1123
01:45:33.119 --> 01:45:35.380
So do you guys have anything else you wanna talk about?
1124
01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:37.940
What are you thinking?
1125
01:45:38.805 --> 01:45:40.745
We're at the hour and 45 minute mark.
1126
01:45:42.005 --> 01:45:43.385
Our comments are just
1127
01:45:44.405 --> 01:45:46.265
Vivek now and Paul.
1128
01:45:49.989 --> 01:45:56.809
Well Uh-huh. I don't know. Vivek is hopefully giving us some feedback on what we should talk about next.
1129
01:45:59.555 --> 01:46:01.095
What are you positive about?
1130
01:46:04.355 --> 01:46:06.295
I mean, I I I think
1131
01:46:07.350 --> 01:46:08.409
I think our
1132
01:46:09.830 --> 01:46:11.210
it is it is extremely
1133
01:46:13.350 --> 01:46:14.969
it is extremely awesome
1134
01:46:15.445 --> 01:46:20.745
that, we're seeing so many new open source projects, like, in the Bitcoin tangential space.
1135
01:46:22.570 --> 01:46:23.630
You know, I just spent,
1136
01:46:24.970 --> 01:46:31.550
like, the last 2 months trying to come up with like, set up this program for Bitcoin 2022
1137
01:46:31.930 --> 01:46:32.430
for
1138
01:46:34.475 --> 01:46:37.375
giving tickets to open source contributors. And, obviously,
1139
01:46:39.115 --> 01:46:44.060
we've been working on open sets to fund open source contributors for the last year.
1140
01:46:45.400 --> 01:46:51.974
So I've, like, been very focused on, like, watching all these projects develop, and it's pretty fucking remarkable. It's it's,
1141
01:46:53.795 --> 01:46:56.855
I feel like that's really what gives Bitcoin its robustness,
1142
01:46:57.310 --> 01:47:00.370
right, is that you have all these open source contributors around the world,
1143
01:47:01.230 --> 01:47:05.010
and that even even that you can, like, have a list of 32 projects
1144
01:47:06.110 --> 01:47:06.610
that
1145
01:47:06.985 --> 01:47:08.205
that aren't garbage,
1146
01:47:08.745 --> 01:47:15.085
that are the exact opposite of garbage, right, that are promising, that are building, that are making progress every day
1147
01:47:16.020 --> 01:47:35.165
is, like, fucking remarkable. Like, that is crazy, all related to Bitcoin. And I think one of the bigger two things, it's not just, like, 1 guy building a lot of these. They're, like, the team of, like, 8 people that build this, like, product. Yeah. Or even even more. Like, you have, like you'll you'll have, like, random projects with, like, 45 contributors, and they have no idea who each other is,
1148
01:47:36.570 --> 01:47:38.270
and they're not getting paid for it.
1149
01:47:39.610 --> 01:47:41.070
That is fucking powerful.
1150
01:47:43.344 --> 01:47:47.125
Vivek wants me to ask you about Vortex. What is Vortex? Oh, god.
1151
01:47:47.905 --> 01:47:52.165
Vortex is a lightning coin joint thing I built that I haven't released yet.
1152
01:47:53.380 --> 01:47:55.960
Oh, that's cool. Why don't you tell us about that?
1153
01:47:56.420 --> 01:48:01.000
So the idea is to be able to open a lightning channel inside of a coin joint.
1154
01:48:01.655 --> 01:48:02.155
And,
1155
01:48:03.014 --> 01:48:06.554
I don't know, I built it from the ground up, and it it's, it links into
1156
01:48:07.415 --> 01:48:09.195
c lightning and lnd.
1157
01:48:09.735 --> 01:48:13.060
So the idea is, like, you know, in a perfect world, you can
1158
01:48:13.860 --> 01:48:20.665
you want every spend as a coin join. And today, there's no open channels in the coin join. So this was like my attempt at doing that.
1159
01:48:21.125 --> 01:48:23.945
I've I've done it on reg test, so it works. But
1160
01:48:24.460 --> 01:48:27.760
I, like, hacked it together and it needs a lot of work still where,
1161
01:48:28.540 --> 01:48:31.120
so, like, the the way it works now is you just, like,
1162
01:48:31.675 --> 01:48:35.615
you just, like, immediately open in a coin join. So there's no, like, remixing or anything.
1163
01:48:35.995 --> 01:48:43.969
So you could very easily dox yourself by, like, opening a channel in a coin join and with your change output. It's like opening another channel and just, you know, you're
1164
01:48:44.270 --> 01:48:47.489
linking yourself to what she did like, what's change output was yours
1165
01:48:47.949 --> 01:48:57.635
and stuff like that. So the I, I need to work on it more where it it lets you, like, kinda like what samurai does today where you can just enter in the remixing pool, remix a 1000 times,
1166
01:48:58.000 --> 01:49:05.380
and then open a coin join from there. So your your change is much more, far links from your Open a channel from there. Yeah. Yeah.
1167
01:49:05.765 --> 01:49:09.625
So then your change is much more like far links from your actual channel. And,
1168
01:49:10.485 --> 01:49:11.385
that's the idea.
1169
01:49:11.925 --> 01:49:12.425
It's,
1170
01:49:13.050 --> 01:49:23.235
if anyone wants to finish it, that'd be great because I have no time anymore. What is the license? It's MIT. There you go. I do MIT on everything. I have a question for you guys. Is GPL v 3 an open source license?
1171
01:49:24.175 --> 01:49:30.750
Is the license open source? Is it an open like, in the debate in the debate of is it a false license?
1172
01:49:31.130 --> 01:49:33.630
Yeah. You're not you're not free to do whatever you want with it.
1173
01:49:35.450 --> 01:49:38.110
There are there are restrictions on what you can do. So,
1174
01:49:40.005 --> 01:49:46.905
I mean, free in what sense? I don't know. I think I'd say it's fast because you can go in and, like, copy and distribute it. But,
1175
01:49:48.870 --> 01:49:52.730
oh, that's, like, my interpretation. You can modify it. You can distribute it. Yeah.
1176
01:49:54.070 --> 01:49:58.244
I don't know. Free is free, man. That doesn't seem very free if I have restrictions.
1177
01:50:00.065 --> 01:50:03.605
That's fair enough. I I kind of I feel that argument.
1178
01:50:05.780 --> 01:50:33.684
But this this project seems that will you be able to do, like, channel closures in as a coin join too? No. I don't know. Does LND support, like I don't think they do. Anything from IP? I know you can I know you can close it? Like, you do a co co op close into, like, your own address, like, a new address. Yeah. Like, it doesn't have to be your lightning node address, but I don't know if you can do anything, like, super advanced. Does LND even have coin control yet? Yeah. Mhmm. LND and c lightning do eclair. It doesn't
1179
01:50:34.724 --> 01:50:43.770
that's why I don't have a clear support. But, like, it's like the way you support it is like you do like a open a channel through a PSVT. So it's like you kind of have to hack together
1180
01:50:45.145 --> 01:50:47.885
like coin control, which is really hard. But yeah.
1181
01:50:48.824 --> 01:51:13.920
I think this is dope. At least like Yeah. We need more of this. We we need more of this. I mean, yeah. Lightning users will shoot themselves in the foot if they can't, like, you know, actually, like, go through the Me and Tony spent, like, 2 hours of talking about Lightning privacy, and the conclusion was, like, you just do a single coin join UTXO. You open up a single channel, and you use the channel, and then you fucking close the node and start fresh again. Yeah. Yeah. My like, my goal with this is like Which is so broken. It's terrible.
1182
01:51:14.220 --> 01:51:22.555
Like, my goal with this is, like, everyone, like, you know, after this last, like, 6 months, everyone's on ClubNet now and has an umbrill that's like always on in their closet.
1183
01:51:23.015 --> 01:51:27.115
And so ideally, like if we have these nodes that are always on, they should just be coin joining always.
1184
01:51:27.655 --> 01:51:32.480
And then when you want to open a channel, you just open a channel and the coin join as well. So like that's the end goal. But,
1185
01:51:33.440 --> 01:51:36.260
you know, I'd have to work on it more. I need to find time. But yeah.
1186
01:51:36.685 --> 01:51:45.905
So you were you gonna publish it to the Umbrel app store? Yeah. That was the that was the goal for, like, on Umbrel and start 9 and, RAS Pipelits. And then also, like, a daemon that you can run locally
1187
01:51:46.460 --> 01:51:48.320
if you don't use any of those. But
1188
01:51:49.659 --> 01:51:58.204
yeah. If anyone well, there's not many Scala devs in Bitcoin. No. I don't work on it. Scala? Come on. You can't work with us on me. Chris, are you out there? Yeah.
1189
01:51:58.665 --> 01:52:00.125
The other Scala dev?
1190
01:52:03.970 --> 01:52:04.870
Yeah. I mean,
1191
01:52:05.810 --> 01:52:07.670
Umbrel has a very restrictive license.
1192
01:52:07.970 --> 01:52:08.470
Yeah.
1193
01:52:09.490 --> 01:52:18.035
I do like the idea of the App Store, though. I think that's that's a really good idea. Making it easy for users to, like, install apps on their notes. The App Store model is a cool model. Yeah.
1194
01:52:18.495 --> 01:52:22.159
The problem is like the centralized control of the App Store model. Right?
1195
01:52:22.460 --> 01:52:33.545
Yeah. It's very weird where you just, like, you just give them, like, a Docker container, and then they just do the next release of Umbrel has that image. So, like I think star 9 has, like, a good approach where, like, you can import any,
1196
01:52:34.005 --> 01:52:42.280
quote, unquote, store URL that you want so that, you know, I could host 1. You could you could host It's like Android. Yeah. Repositories on Android. Where, like, you can have
1197
01:52:42.580 --> 01:52:47.160
like, theoretically, Google doesn't stop you from having other app stores on your Android phone,
1198
01:52:47.645 --> 01:52:58.020
but 99% of people are still gonna use the Play Store. Or like Linux too where you add your own like, someone else's repository, and you can get their app that's on only their repository.
1199
01:53:00.159 --> 01:53:01.520
Right. Okay. Awesome.
1200
01:53:02.000 --> 01:53:03.699
Ortex sounds freaking awesome.
1201
01:53:06.125 --> 01:53:08.705
We have someone mentioning Fulcrum. Did you see Fulcrum?
1202
01:53:10.844 --> 01:53:18.370
That's something that's cool. So that so Craig of Sparrow has been doing all these performance tests, and Fulcrum is a different Electrum server.
1203
01:53:18.830 --> 01:53:23.570
It blows Electromax and Electris out of the water in terms of performance, especially on
1204
01:53:24.595 --> 01:53:28.215
single board computers like ResPods or RockPros or something.
1205
01:53:32.710 --> 01:53:34.650
The project is funded by BCash,
1206
01:53:34.950 --> 01:53:44.205
though. Oh, I didn't know that. That's so that was the first one. It's, like, funded by a BCash company. It's, like, pays the developer salary. Is it free and open source license, though?
1207
01:53:45.065 --> 01:53:46.845
I don't know what the license is.
1208
01:53:49.390 --> 01:53:53.489
And I don't know what the definition of free and open source is. No. I think
1209
01:53:54.110 --> 01:53:56.050
I've hopefully, it's MIT license,
1210
01:53:57.395 --> 01:54:15.344
but we'll see. Yeah. I I I remember reading that. I think Craig wouldn't fuck with it if it was I think he would've mentioned it already, but I should've checked myself, and I haven't. It was a little weird that, like, that was I haven't heard of it or anything. That was the first time I heard of it, and it was, like, a big show for Fulcrum. Like, here's all the analysis, and then, okay, Fulcrum's the winner. It's like, oh, what is what is Fulcrum?
1211
01:54:16.205 --> 01:54:21.244
So it was kinda crazy. But did you see, like, the performance difference? It was, like, fucking crazy. It was,
1212
01:54:21.965 --> 01:54:27.630
8 x and, like, the worst. Oh. There was initial load. Fulcrum is 22 times faster than Electromax,
1213
01:54:28.010 --> 01:54:34.465
300 times faster than Electris. Most most of these, like, full node implementation boxes or whatever using Electris.
1214
01:54:34.925 --> 01:54:42.540
300 times faster than Electris on initial load. Wallet refresh, 8 times faster than Electromax, 1 and a half times faster than Electris.
1215
01:54:43.400 --> 01:54:47.420
That's pretty impressive. It's GPL license according to Paul. There you go.
1216
01:54:48.055 --> 01:54:52.635
Throw it in the trash. So it may or may not be open source depending on your definition.
1217
01:54:54.135 --> 01:54:55.035
But that's that's
1218
01:54:55.400 --> 01:55:01.420
that's pretty legit. And I think it said only, like, a 100 gigabytes of storage needed, so, like, that's not that's not too far fetched.
1219
01:55:01.960 --> 01:55:04.300
There are some implementations that are, like, 800
1220
01:55:04.925 --> 01:55:06.145
to almost, like, a terabyte.
1221
01:55:06.525 --> 01:55:07.665
Really? Yeah.
1222
01:55:08.125 --> 01:55:08.765
I think the,
1223
01:55:09.965 --> 01:55:13.505
elect yeah. One of them that's, like, meant for, like, more
1224
01:55:14.480 --> 01:55:17.220
more business use cases. It's, like, 800, but,
1225
01:55:18.640 --> 01:55:21.300
seems pretty impressive. I I haven't used too much of those
1226
01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:22.820
myself, but
1227
01:55:23.765 --> 01:55:26.505
it's pretty nice. Well, because it's interesting. Right? Because
1228
01:55:28.885 --> 01:55:30.825
I feel like a lot of the pain points,
1229
01:55:32.640 --> 01:55:38.900
that we're gonna hit in Bitcoin that we like, the one of the beauties of, like, an open system like Bitcoin is, like, I feel like as you hit pain points,
1230
01:55:40.495 --> 01:55:47.554
the underlying system becomes more robust because you fix based on those pain points, but you need to hit the pain points first.
1231
01:55:48.480 --> 01:55:52.740
And, obviously, in Bitcoin land, there's been a very much of a
1232
01:55:55.575 --> 01:55:57.675
buy and hold mentality rather than
1233
01:55:58.055 --> 01:55:59.995
spend it or earn it.
1234
01:56:00.695 --> 01:56:05.080
And on top of that, of those who do spend and earn, a lot of them use centralized services. Right?
1235
01:56:05.560 --> 01:56:09.900
So the whole reason Craig is even exploring this is because in Sparrow, he added Whirlpool.
1236
01:56:10.440 --> 01:56:11.660
And when you add Whirlpool,
1237
01:56:12.285 --> 01:56:16.385
all of a sudden, your wallet gets very heavy. You use a lot of UTXOs.
1238
01:56:16.845 --> 01:56:19.105
Right? And you go really deep into those addresses,
1239
01:56:19.725 --> 01:56:21.665
and the Electrum servers were buckling.
1240
01:56:22.750 --> 01:56:25.570
But, like, people weren't using their own Electrum servers
1241
01:56:26.030 --> 01:56:27.489
with heavy wallet use
1242
01:56:28.030 --> 01:56:29.090
until they integrated.
1243
01:56:29.655 --> 01:56:35.275
Right? It wasn't it wasn't a pain point that was immediately obvious until people started, you know, actually
1244
01:56:35.655 --> 01:56:37.835
using Bitcoin hardcore in that respect.
1245
01:56:38.690 --> 01:56:45.430
And now he needs to go and he basically got a bunch of support requests that people's electrum servers are, like, stalling when they were trying to go
1246
01:56:46.275 --> 01:56:47.175
deep in these
1247
01:56:47.555 --> 01:56:49.635
in these address steps. I think too because,
1248
01:56:50.835 --> 01:56:55.255
SamRite did like, they they heavily check against the address reuse. So
1249
01:56:55.560 --> 01:57:13.760
I I know the coordinator checks, like, for that. I don't know if the wall actually checks. But if you need to check, like, all your peers' like addresses if they've been used before, that's a ton of extra data too that you need to, like, quickly look up. So, yeah, it's very important. I'm pretty sure the coordinator enforces it Yeah. For what it's worth. But Right. So if everyone's,
1250
01:57:14.300 --> 01:57:24.565
Electrum, like, servers on their own Raspberry Pi are, like, going down, then they're like are they, like, switching off to, like, someone else's Electrum server? And then and then Well, no. That's the beauty the beauty of Sparrow is
1251
01:57:25.685 --> 01:57:29.039
I mean, you can just it's very it's very clean. With Electrum
1252
01:57:29.420 --> 01:57:34.719
with base Electrum, it it was, like, kind of easy to accidentally dox yourself to public Electrum servers.
1253
01:57:35.055 --> 01:57:37.635
But with Sparrow, like, he made it so it's just, like,
1254
01:57:38.655 --> 01:57:44.500
from start up, you can say only connect to my Electrum server, and it just will never fall back. Okay. Good.
1255
01:57:45.040 --> 01:57:48.080
But then their wallet doesn't load. Yeah. Right.
1256
01:57:49.040 --> 01:57:51.700
But at least you don't have the privacy gotcha necessarily.
1257
01:57:52.395 --> 01:57:58.175
Yeah. And I I expect to start to see, like, this kind of situation happen in terms of Bitcoin circular economy
1258
01:57:58.475 --> 01:58:01.935
because of stuff like El Salvador. Like, all of a sudden, you'd put 6,000,000 people
1259
01:58:02.610 --> 01:58:04.389
with a proper circular economy,
1260
01:58:06.449 --> 01:58:09.110
that instead of government restricted, it's government mandated.
1261
01:58:10.035 --> 01:58:21.520
And all of a sudden, you start to see real world examples of pain points and enlightening and spending Bitcoin and receiving Bitcoin and stuff that can be resolved, but they need to be exposed first. Right?
1262
01:58:23.100 --> 01:58:50.705
Right. And then and then there's also, like, a a privacy argument there too. Like, their number one concern may not be, privacy. It's to save themselves from the collapse of the US dollar from a from another nation. Right? From a developing nation. Or they just don't even have the resources to, like, do it or, like, if they wanna run run their own electric server, that's like you're saying, like, it's 6, 700 gigabytes. Like, that's a whole lot of data and a lot of, like, space that they might not be able to maintain.
1263
01:58:51.300 --> 01:58:51.800
So,
1264
01:58:52.340 --> 01:58:54.440
you know, it's trade offs they have to make.
1265
01:58:55.700 --> 01:58:57.240
Yeah. And just bandwidth requirements.
1266
01:58:58.475 --> 01:59:10.869
Yeah. And then and then and then if it's down, it's like, okay. Well, now my wallet doesn't work. Like, I gotta go Yeah. I mean, he's using Ben's using his own node for the op return bot, and fucking it went down, and now the service doesn't work.
1267
01:59:11.889 --> 01:59:18.635
Wait a wait a docs at his nose. Yeah. I'm gonna get bro. People are gonna try to don't, you know, try to force close on him now.
1268
01:59:20.135 --> 01:59:21.275
Uh-uh. Please don't.
1269
01:59:21.895 --> 01:59:23.275
He's got a large shower.
1270
01:59:24.295 --> 01:59:25.034
Yeah. Hopefully.
1271
01:59:27.910 --> 01:59:30.010
Yeah. I mean, I think this has been a great conversation.
1272
01:59:30.950 --> 01:59:32.570
We're hitting the 2 hour point.
1273
01:59:34.875 --> 01:59:38.015
I like to wrap it up around here. Before we wrap it up,
1274
01:59:39.035 --> 01:59:41.935
first of all, thank you guys for joining me with this for this conversation.
1275
01:59:42.890 --> 01:59:59.594
You're obviously both better men than Justin Moon. Yeah. Who's He could still come up and talk if he's literally sitting. You wanna say hi? Don't say hi. Work, and then you just sit there sat there the whole time. Wave heckling. He's waving he's waving at us, so you're you're both better men than him. So thank you for joining us.
1276
02:00:00.340 --> 02:00:03.079
Let's wrap up with some final thoughts. Final thoughts, Ben.
1277
02:00:05.780 --> 02:00:06.280
AOPPP
1278
02:00:06.820 --> 02:00:09.735
isn't the worst thing. We need to focus on real privacy,
1279
02:00:10.195 --> 02:00:13.015
like KYC stuff and, coin joining,
1280
02:00:13.635 --> 02:00:15.095
and the future is bright.
1281
02:00:17.300 --> 02:00:21.320
Yeah. No. Thanks. Thanks, Ben. Yeah. Thanks for Final thoughts,
1282
02:00:21.860 --> 02:00:22.360
Tony.
1283
02:00:22.820 --> 02:00:25.400
Thanks for having me, Matt. Always always a pleasure.
1284
02:00:26.565 --> 02:00:28.985
Always great to be talking with Ben too.
1285
02:00:29.445 --> 02:00:36.580
I don't know that the, you know, the the future is bright. Like, you know, take control of your own coins, you know, contribute to the local economy of Bitcoiners.
1286
02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:42.740
You know, get off get off, get off KYC services, and, I don't know. Enjoy life.
1287
02:00:44.275 --> 02:00:45.255
Thank you, guys.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:08:19 PM
Duration: 7664.039
Channels: 1
1
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2
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fired up
3
00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:08.420
a a miner in my house, an ant miner in my house. And it's
4
00:00:09.125 --> 00:00:11.145
just chugging away, and it's sending
5
00:00:12.405 --> 00:00:13.785
all this Bitcoin to
6
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Slushpool, which then sends it to my Moon Wallet. And then I can take my Moon Wallet, and I can go out,
7
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and I can buy a taco.
8
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And just the fact that I was able to do that
9
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is
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11
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Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.
13
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You can join our matrix chat, which is,
14
00:01:23.155 --> 00:01:24.375
allows you to participate
15
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in
16
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our discussion live at citadel.chat.
17
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If you type that into your browser,
18
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consider joining us. Don't be overwhelmed by matrix. It's a lot easier to use than you might think.
19
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As I always start off the show, huge shout out to our supporters
20
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who help keep dispatch a 100% audience funded,
21
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ad free without sponsors, purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
22
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This is,
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a slightly new format for dispatch.
24
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As you can see, if you're watching our live video streams, whether that's through bitcoin tv.com,
25
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Twitch, YouTube, or Twitter,
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I might appear as the only icon
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on the screen talking.
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But in reality,
29
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I got a whole crew here
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in person, and we will be having an in person discussion on this dispatch,
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broadcast to you live.
32
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If you're listening on the podcast apps,
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I hope I hope the audio quality sounds sounds good. I mean, we have
34
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a very elaborate setup here that was expensive.
35
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So
36
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it cost a lot of sats. I hope it I hope I hope,
37
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you guys appreciate that.
38
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If you do wanna support the show, I now have a BTC page server up at sidledispatch.com.
39
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You can support with lightning
40
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or Bitcoin
41
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on chain.
42
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This is a nonfiat
43
00:02:53.440 --> 00:03:03.605
operation, so that is the only way you can support the show is with Sats. You can also stream Sats using podcasting 2 point o apps. I really like Fountain Podcasts
44
00:03:03.985 --> 00:03:04.725
and Breezewallet.
45
00:03:05.745 --> 00:03:09.045
I heard that Podfriend is also pretty good.
46
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If you're used to podcast apps, it's just like you'd be comfortable with already.
47
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You install the app, You load it up with sats. You search Siddle dispatch.
48
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Press that subscribe button,
49
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and then you choose basically how many sats per minute you wanna stream to the show,
50
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and that goes straight to my notes. So it is really appreciated.
51
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The freaks who continue to support dispatch.
52
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A lot of people tell me I can't make this work and that the ad model is the only way, but I'm looking forward to proving them wrong.
53
00:03:40.655 --> 00:03:42.194
So with all that said,
54
00:03:44.239 --> 00:03:49.060
and pardon the long intro here because I'm a little bit out of my element in this new studio,
55
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we have a very fun discussion,
56
00:03:52.305 --> 00:04:00.004
set up here. I mean, when I say that, we also don't really know exactly where we're gonna go with it, but I'm pretty excited about it. We got some good big winners here.
57
00:04:01.430 --> 00:04:08.970
First off, we have Ben Decarman here. How's it going, Ben? I'm pretty good. The new studio is pretty nice. I enjoy it.
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He's our,
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he
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he's our ambassador from the council of Benz. Do the Benz tell you to say anything?
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we're making it through with our friends. Is Remy, I guess, is on,
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And we got we got Tony here. How's it going, Tony? Repeat guest on the show.
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He says he's not gonna participate, but I already have a mic set up for him. So I'm hoping
68
00:04:52.785 --> 00:04:55.925
in the next half an hour, he's not gonna help himself, and he's gonna
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00:04:56.420 --> 00:05:00.600
walk up to the table, sit down, and grab the mic. So I'm looking forward to that.
70
00:05:01.700 --> 00:05:05.400
So I titled this episode, threats to Bitcoin and the state of the network.
71
00:05:07.055 --> 00:05:10.035
The state of the network aspect to me, I'm kinda thinking,
72
00:05:10.574 --> 00:05:12.194
like, kind of a state of the union,
73
00:05:12.495 --> 00:05:13.474
but with Bitcoin,
74
00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:15.300
where do we stand?
75
00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:19.700
As for threats to Bitcoin, I think we should start with that.
76
00:05:20.640 --> 00:05:23.540
It's been a very interesting week in terms of
77
00:05:24.355 --> 00:05:24.855
Bitcoin
78
00:05:25.235 --> 00:05:27.175
and the state or governments.
79
00:05:28.515 --> 00:05:29.335
We had
80
00:05:29.795 --> 00:05:39.640
Biden say president Biden say that he wanna do an executive order. Not sure exactly what he means by that. Not even sure if he knows what he means by that against Bitcoin.
81
00:05:42.315 --> 00:05:44.975
Then but there was, like, some Russia back and forth.
82
00:05:47.035 --> 00:05:47.675
There was
83
00:05:49.050 --> 00:05:52.330
what else? There was a couple other There's that one bill in,
84
00:05:52.970 --> 00:05:57.790
85
00:05:59.705 --> 00:06:02.125
86
00:06:02.425 --> 00:06:04.125
that was included in that.
87
00:06:04.425 --> 00:06:09.880
It was one part of a big ass bill. It was, like, pay it was, like, right in the middle of, like, a 2,000 page bill,
88
00:06:10.979 --> 00:06:18.925
that said the treasury has the ability to just stop any transact, financial transaction they wanna stop, including Bitcoin transactions. Yeah. Good luck.
89
00:06:20.905 --> 00:06:21.725
90
00:06:22.330 --> 00:06:25.310
91
00:06:27.130 --> 00:06:33.615
I don't even know, man. I feel like Let's start with AOPP. So AOPP was stands for address ownership
92
00:06:35.515 --> 00:06:39.640
93
00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:41.660
94
00:06:43.400 --> 00:06:47.100
Make sure you have a VPN or tour when you go to that website.
95
00:06:49.215 --> 00:06:58.995
96
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:04.500
But, you know, you need to know what's messaging to sign before you actually do that to prove you on the
97
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:12.485
address. So AOPP is just like a thing that I think, like, the Swedish government enforce on exchanges to The Swiss. A Swiss. Okay.
98
00:07:13.345 --> 00:07:21.600
But so it's just like a protocol for signing messages, and it's like a specific message. They have, like it's like super basic. It's just like a version number, a message,
99
00:07:21.979 --> 00:07:27.280
and, like, the address type. And then you give, like, a URL to where to send this message afterwards. And
100
00:07:28.025 --> 00:07:31.325
a bunch of hardware or no. A bunch of, like, mobile wallets and Trezor
101
00:07:31.705 --> 00:07:34.685
implemented it, and then everyone got in a tizzy.
102
00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:46.195
103
00:07:46.655 --> 00:07:54.835
Mhmm. Yeah. I think they're the main people behind it too. Yeah. They helped create, the protocol. So the thing is it's interesting with the whole AOPP thing because,
104
00:07:56.479 --> 00:07:58.660
obviously, it blew up on Twitter recently,
105
00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:04.335
partially, I think, because Trezor had just integrated, and CoinDesk reported on it. But
106
00:08:04.715 --> 00:08:05.775
Swiss Swiss exchanges,
107
00:08:07.995 --> 00:08:09.775
have been required by their government,
108
00:08:10.315 --> 00:08:16.410
their interpretation of the travel rule, to to prove withdrawal addresses, to prove ownership of withdrawal addresses,
109
00:08:16.789 --> 00:08:18.490
I believe, a couple years ago.
110
00:08:19.270 --> 00:08:21.130
I think this started in 2019.
111
00:08:22.504 --> 00:08:26.284
I might be mistaken on that, but it's been around for a bit. And and
112
00:08:26.745 --> 00:08:34.560
what users were doing was they were going and they were they were signing a message with their Bitcoin transact with their with their private key,
113
00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:42.725
which is a native operation that you can do in the Bitcoin protocol and a bunch of wallets supported, including Bitcoin Core.
114
00:08:44.305 --> 00:08:44.805
Obviously,
115
00:08:47.770 --> 00:08:50.350
for new users using, you know, a KYC
116
00:08:50.970 --> 00:08:51.470
exchange,
117
00:08:52.410 --> 00:08:56.270
this was a difficult task for them to complete.
118
00:08:56.665 --> 00:08:58.765
I'm sure, you know, a lot of these
119
00:08:59.305 --> 00:09:02.605
wallet providers were getting a lot of support requests, stuff like that.
120
00:09:03.225 --> 00:09:12.170
And the Swiss exchanges in partnership with Shift crypto, or I guess a couple Swiss exchanges in partnership with Shift crypto, were like, let's make a signing protocol
121
00:09:12.709 --> 00:09:15.975
that can just be, like, click a button, prove the address you own.
122
00:09:17.815 --> 00:09:30.540
And then Shift Bitbox integrated first, and then I guess they've just been trolling open source projects, like submitting pull requests, just trying to get people to implement that, like, URI scheme or whatever. Click the link, automatically signs the address.
123
00:09:31.775 --> 00:09:44.620
124
00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:47.954
125
00:09:48.654 --> 00:09:52.834
is actually Satoshi, he should be able to sign a message with
126
00:09:53.295 --> 00:09:54.115
with early,
127
00:09:54.735 --> 00:09:55.634
Bitcoin keys,
128
00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:00.580
and then we would be able to easily verify that message
129
00:10:01.040 --> 00:10:04.340
was was made by someone who controls those keys,
130
00:10:05.315 --> 00:10:17.410
131
00:10:19.950 --> 00:10:24.435
132
00:10:24.895 --> 00:10:28.035
in terms of, like, criminal activity or anything because it just
133
00:10:29.375 --> 00:10:30.655
even if you sign a
134
00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:36.080
even if you if you even if you sign an address and prove that you own that address,
135
00:10:37.260 --> 00:10:40.935
you're just adding an extra hop between, like, if you, like, send from that exchange.
136
00:10:44.695 --> 00:10:45.915
The second thing is,
137
00:10:46.710 --> 00:10:49.370
like, I feel like based on the outrage
138
00:10:49.750 --> 00:10:51.050
that happened on Twitter
139
00:10:52.150 --> 00:10:54.810
compared to the lack of outrage that happens with
140
00:10:55.315 --> 00:11:02.695
pretty much every single Bitcoin company keeping track of our withdrawal addresses and our personal identifiable information,
141
00:11:03.790 --> 00:11:09.090
passport photos, driver's licenses, home addresses, emails, phone numbers, IP addresses.
142
00:11:11.215 --> 00:11:15.875
I feel like people don't necessarily realize that even without the signing protocol,
143
00:11:16.815 --> 00:11:17.795
you know, 95%
144
00:11:18.095 --> 00:11:20.275
of users' addresses are
145
00:11:20.900 --> 00:11:26.120
linked to their ID anyway if they're coming in through a KYC exchange, especially if they're not doing any
146
00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:31.675
forward privacy techniques or anything. They're not considering privacy going forward after they withdraw.
147
00:11:33.574 --> 00:11:40.150
With all that said, I mean, obviously, it was great to see the pushback. I just think it was a very interesting dynamic. I'm, like, curious
148
00:11:41.330 --> 00:11:46.470
what you guys think about, like, the response. Was it warranted? Could it should it have been harder?
149
00:11:47.154 --> 00:11:50.375
Like, where do we go from where do we go from here next? Like
150
00:11:51.075 --> 00:11:51.975
151
00:11:52.755 --> 00:11:53.255
because
152
00:11:53.875 --> 00:12:01.220
they've they've had it for a while now, and it's it I don't know. I guess, like you said, the whole the article made it blow up, but,
153
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:09.570
I I don't know. I think the I think the response was warranted. I mean, we we need to be pushing back as much as we can and and telling everyone, you know,
154
00:12:10.130 --> 00:12:15.830
that, you know, when we see something happening in the space, we, you know, we speak up and, like, try to try to get it fixed. So,
155
00:12:16.290 --> 00:12:24.665
the fact that, like, companies, you know, I think BlueWallet, Treasure, like, so many different ones, actually, like, came forward and said, okay. We're we're actually gonna remove it.
156
00:12:25.310 --> 00:12:32.770
I don't know if any, like, exchange or regulated entity that had it implemented in the Swiss. Like, the countries actually, like,
157
00:12:33.475 --> 00:12:35.335
came out and said whether or not
158
00:12:35.715 --> 00:12:41.655
they had any opinion about it because, I mean, they're not really supposed to speak much about regulations publicly.
159
00:12:42.870 --> 00:12:44.410
But I don't know. Like, the
160
00:12:45.510 --> 00:12:46.410
on one hand,
161
00:12:47.030 --> 00:12:53.195
it makes it harder for people to withdraw their funds if if the exchanges are gonna keep doing it anyways. But on the other hand,
162
00:12:53.815 --> 00:13:06.160
good. Like, you know, these exchanges that are just complying with all these regulations and and, you know, not really caring about user, any user privacy at all or any any you know, just not even caring about the users that yourself or profit, whatever.
163
00:13:07.395 --> 00:13:18.110
You know, make them make them push back themselves. If they really care about their profit models and, like, oh, you know, it's so so hard for users to withdraw, then actually fight back. I think the Bitcoin Magazine article that came out,
164
00:13:18.750 --> 00:13:20.690
kinda like analyzing the whole AOPP,
165
00:13:21.390 --> 00:13:22.610
stuff that went down,
166
00:13:23.195 --> 00:13:28.715
actually, like, highlighted a good point that, like, there has been instances where, like, exchanges have tried to go to court and,
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to fight these regulations, and then they ended up dropping the some of the regulations completely. They're like, okay. Well, this isn't worth the battle or, like, maybe this was just a broad overreach of the interpretation. So, like, we're not gonna we're not gonna fight any further. So until you actually try to get pushback, I I think I think pushback does does, does matter. I think we can try to create a change and then not set a bad precedent because there's there's another spot about regulations where if you're not doing what every other company does, like, there's no, like, laws around some some most of the stuff anyways. So, like, okay. You know, there's there's interpretations of, like, regulations, and then that's what people go for. And and if a company is, like, not doing what every other company has established as the these are our interpretations, then all of a sudden they're in hot water and they're on their own, and they're gonna be, you know, be, singled out and gone after for not complying
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like everyone else. So I think we do need pushback, and I think,
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you know, time will tell whether or not it it it, it actually works. But Yeah. I mean, I think that
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something like AOPP, this this idea that, like, we shouldn't have
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open source,
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well regarded wallets,
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making it easier for burdensome regulation
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to be complied with,
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because when you reduce that friction, you're basically
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endorsing the exchanges that go through that process
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and the regulations that they're complying with.
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I I I think it it might be interesting, though, because
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the wallets that they did choose were some of the best wallets in the space.
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You know, BlueWallet is, you know, one of the best mobile wallets on the space, fully featured,
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Bitcoin only. Sparrow wallet. I fucking love Sparrow wallet.
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I wonder if there's going to be and this is just, like, speculation. Like, I wonder if there'll be
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more shitty wallets
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that add support so that when, like, a Relay,
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rela,
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I, or one of the other Swiss exchanges,
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like, needs to direct their users somewhere, they'll just direct them to the shitty wallet that has has the support.
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You know, something like
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Trust Wallet, which nobody should use,
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has become very popular, especially in, like, the shitcoin community, and they don't even rotate addresses. Like, they just give you a fixed Bitcoin address.
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So, like, when Trust Wallet adds AOPP,
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are a lot of those users gonna then go and use those services? And I really feel like, to me,
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the functional argument should be,
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as a community, being more outspoken against KYC in the 1st place. Because if you withdraw from Cash App,
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yeah, the majority
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yeah. They don't know for sure that you're not paying yourself,
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that that you're not paying someone else. Like, oh, I'm I could send a transaction to Ben from Cash App. Right?
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And they don't know that for sure. But if
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if every week you're sending, like, the same amount
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to an address, even if you're not reusing addresses, which, let's be honest, a lot of people are reusing addresses,
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they can get a pretty good idea that it's you like, they'll have beyond a reasonable doubt that it's your address even without you signing.
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I feel like I feel like the real argument should be pushing back against KYC
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as hard as possible, but it's good that people also push back about this AOPP thing. And then the other question is, like, these are open source projects.
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like,
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someone could maintain a Sparrow or a BlueWallet with the AOP. It's already been written. They already they already know what what to merge for that. It probably doesn't break anything else in the wallet. Yeah. It's probably pretty simple.
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if someone's like on the exchange now and like they don't know how to resign a new address, they might just start reusing old addresses that they withdrew from that they already
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signed for. So it could actually, like, hurt user privacy that way too, sadly.
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Or even even worse, just holding it on the exchange the whole time and never withdraw because it's too it's too hard to do. And honestly, I've heard that argument. Yeah. Like, the AOPP the pro AOPP people, they were saying, like, we're doing
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So I feel like you just end up complying, complying, complying, and then it gets to the point where you're just stuck in these custodial loops. And then maybe, like, Cash App has a partnership with Strike or Bidstamp or something. You could send between those
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regulated entities, but you can't actually withdraw and take custody. Like, I still think that is coming.
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Do you guy like, do you guys think in America that's a possibility that
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that regulated services won't even let you won't be allowed to let you withdraw, period?
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you know, Bitcoin, quote, unquote, you know, quote, unquote, ban Bitcoin,
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without, like, at least a way to, like, you know,
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herd users and herd Bitcoiners in a way where it's like, okay. Well, you know, we didn't quote, unquote ban it. Like, we can't do that. Right? So we're just gonna try to, like, keep them contained, and they can only, like, trade or they can only, like, buy and sell or they can only, you know, we know where they live, like, all the all these different things. Like, that's one that's one vector. And and I think they I think they are working on the whole vast vast stuff right now, and I think they almost need that in place before they can go, like, full full ape shit, really.
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We have we have a user in the we have a freak in the comments. Mark Marcus Maximus says, it evolves into selfie check, holding up your signed message with a copy of your passport for any withdrawal. Reminds me of that Vitalik,
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picture that he took. But, also,
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supposedly, right before we went live,
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someone sent me that, like, YouTube in Europe is requiring ID checks now
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based on European law,
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to make sure you're of age,
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for certain content, and that was either credit card or ID scan. So k y c is really first of all, fuck YouTube,
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bitcoin tv.com.
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But the second
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the second thing is, like, KYC is just insidious, and it's just it's surrounding everything in our lives. Like, as Bitcoiners, we're very focused on
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it entering Bitcoin land, especially since if you've been around for a little bit, there was, like, no KYC anywhere, so it was very obvious.
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But it's literally
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it's literally
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permeating everywhere.
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The other thing
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while we're on this conversation I mean, I don't know if you guys saw the new Spectre release today.
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Another great wallet, open source wallet,
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focused on self custody, using your own node, multisig.
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You see, they integrated Swan,
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not because of a regulator, but they integrated Swan because of,
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my guess is mostly because of monetization. Like, they're gonna get a cut out of out of Swan dollar cost average users because you can sign up from Swan directly through,
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Specter. Yep. And their integration
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is
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so I fucking
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hate
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KYC. I think KYC puts a lot of you it puts honest users at risk. I think criminals get around it. They either buy or
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use stolen,
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KYC information, ID information to get around these regulations, and the and
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meanwhile, honest users are put at risk
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all all sorts of different,
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risks to themselves
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that we see in these massive leaks that almost inevitably happen because the KYC information isn't stored very securely, and it's kept forever.
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With all that said,
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I do believe
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that
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the KYC services that do exist, the regulated Bitcoin companies that do exist,
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should try their best to basically,
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guide their users to best practices.
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And Swan has
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done this in a couple ways. First of all, Swan has been pretty outspoken about providing education material to their users, including the risk of KYC. I've been on their podcast multiple times about it.
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I know,
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Gigi, when he was working there, he wrote up a whole thing on privacy and the different trade offs and risks with Bitcoin. I think the number one thing is just having this discussion over and over again so people are aware of the risk. Most people aren't aware of the risk.
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But they also have no shit coins, and they do this
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they're focused on they basically they try they monetize the stacking stats meme, but the idea is, like, a long term savings, dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin.
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Basically,
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if if you're talking about actual financial loss, trying to reduce that risk in in that regard, try and make it a more conservative product.
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And coupled with that, auto withdrawals
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so that when you're
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when you're buying on Swan, you don't have to think about it. What happens to a lot of people is they end up, you know,
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their dollar cost averaging, then Bitcoin price goes up. They don't even think about it, and then, ultimately, they have way too much Bitcoin on a service. We saw this happen with Cash App. The limits are a certain height. You know, the limits are maybe too low in a lot of respects, and you can't actually get your Bitcoin off that quickly, and you end up trying to, like, meet the limits every week. It causes this whole this whole clusterfuck.
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So Swan has auto withdrawals.
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They originally
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and I I promise you, Freak, there's a reason for all this context here. They originally had you just put in an address, and you were getting auto withdrawal to that address, which, by the way, no a o p p, but that's obviously your fucking address. Yep.
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Then they added this new feature where you could
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provide an XPub
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to them, and they would take, like, the first
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so many addresses from it, and they said they'd delete the XPUB. And they actually have this open source tool that you can do that all locally if you'd if you don't wanna trust them, which you shouldn't.
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Now Spectre
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integrated this into their wallet. Right?
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So on Spectre,
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you can either use an existing wallet or set up a new wallet. Best practice would be to set up a new wallet. And then Spectre automatically uploads the next ten addresses
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to Swan,
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which, by the way, no AOPP, but those ten addresses are obviously yours in that situation. Right?
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Should the community
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be angry at that? Like, where do we stand on that?
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know, a lot of Bitcoiners just kinda, you know, celebrate the number go up things and don't fully think about it. But,
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I don't know. And, like,
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you can just simply not use the feature luckily.
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But, it is kinda sketchy to, like, put that in, like, you know, your it's like Spectre's like a a deep deep cold storage kinda wall. It's not like your mobile blue wall that you, like, take for buying tacos. It's,
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you know, this is like for your, like, life savings that you, like, give to your kids, which is, like, even worse that I think that's happening with. But you don't think if you're if you're using it if you're using a KYC service
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you don't think there is an advantage
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to
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basically,
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dollar cost averaging with auto withdrawal directly to your cold storage multisig
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without reusing addresses?
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Because, obviously, you're still trusting
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you're still trusting
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Swan with that information. They have to keep it forever. They're gonna share it. It could be stolen
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and then bought or whatever. Like, it probably will be.
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But on chain,
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you're not reusing addresses.
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cold storage. So, like, you know, this kind of inhibits that a little bit too. So you could argue that it's worse. But
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and, you know, if you're just, like,
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you know, if that's too much for you and you you you haven't gotten to that point yet, then maybe this is nicer because you might just have, like, one address saved and they're withdraw to it every time. So and maybe for, like, the total new, this is a UX improvement. But I I I think for
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I think, eventually, like, you can have enough assumptions that,
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that it is the user's wallet. And
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I think in this case, you are right. Like, it's pretty much a 100% guarantee that it's gonna be their wallet that it, like, auto sucks you, but it it could not be. It could maybe it's your child's inheritance. Maybe it's like maybe it's like, you know, different type of,
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pretty much guarantee that it's it's really gonna be yours. But in in a lot of cases, like, if a user's just logging in to your service to do a withdrawal and, like, it's the entire amount, then boom. They know from there that it's, like, your entire that it's your address that you're doing a full withdrawal to. Right? So,
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I see I see what you mean. I never thought about it in that case. I I do think, like, yeah, if you're gonna give your expound to to something like Swann, you should definitely be like a whole new
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a whole new wallet or your, you know, your next 20 addresses or whatever,
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should be a whole new wallet. But,
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at least with at least with, like, Bitcoin, you can spin up, like, a new address relatively easy. So if it is, like, it's a brand new address, it's, like, never been seen before.
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You know, what what almost, like, it gets to a point, like, what does it matter if it was, like, was yours or not? Like, you know, you can mix right after, and then, you know, no one really knows. You can spin up a new address. You can do mixing, all kinds of stuff. But,
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they withdraw. So when you combine these things together,
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it gets pretty dangerous. And, also, most users aren't using
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CoinJoin.
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Most users are just keeping in custody. I mean, I have,
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and almost all of them 99% of new users are coming in through KYC. They shouldn't, but they are. Most of them are keeping it on custodial exchanges. I mean, I have friends
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from college,
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that you know, like, I find out that they still have the they just keep their Bitcoin on Coinbase.
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I have one friend who is using Swan,
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and he has auto withdrawal set up, and he's just been reusing the same address,
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for the last year and a half or whatever.
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Yeah. Your friend, dude. What the hell? I told him not to. You know, I'm just I I'm I'm honestly, I'm happy he's withdrawing. Yes. Right? And he's withdrawing too. I believe he has a ledger
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that, like, I set up for him,
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you know, like, two and a half years ago, 3 years ago,
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that he, like, wrote the seed words down ineligible
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like, you couldn't read the seed words, and then he he fucked up his ledger or lost it or something, and I had to restore it onto a new ledger. And we were guessing seed words, and we finally recovered it.
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You know? So, like,
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I feel like a lot of times we go, like, really deep into the weeds
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and but the majority of people are just getting picked off left and right. And, of course, Bitcoin is,
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at its at its core, is is basically a direct and center to practice personal responsibility, and we can never really put training wheels on that. Like, you're always gonna have to take, you know, responsibility of yourself.
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But I just wanna unpack this more. So, like,
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Casa,
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you can
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DCA
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through Casa. Casa has their own
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onboarding service now directly to your Casa Wallet.
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Casa
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Rich people need privacy too, though. Yeah. I know. But I I feel like there's a little bit of a difference there because,
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I mean, if you're if you're,
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You're not gonna have, like, 10,000,000 users. Yeah. And if you're onboarding if if you're trying to, like, put in a $1,000,000
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into Bitcoin or
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2,000,000, $3,000,000 into Bitcoin,
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and you're like an oil baron or something,
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no KYC options are a lot less accessible to you. Then maybe a Casa user is putting $50 in.
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And I think I mean, obviously, I don't see their internal discussions. I think Unchained is
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pretty good about it. I mean, we're all very close with a lot of the guys over at Unchained are pretty good about explaining the trade offs. A lot of these things is, like, I feel like Bitcoiners should have options,
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but they need to be
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aware of the trade offs so they can make an actual educated decision. Right?
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But, anyway, let's get back to Casa for a second. Casa
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has a has a service where you can buy KYC,
369
00:31:57.515 --> 00:32:00.975
optional, buy KYC with fiat to your Casa wallet.
370
00:32:01.675 --> 00:32:04.015
Casa does not allow you to use your own node.
371
00:32:04.570 --> 00:32:07.470
They have a closed source app. They obviously can
372
00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:10.750
they can obviously track your transactions
373
00:32:11.210 --> 00:32:16.905
going forward as well if you're keep continue to use Casa and your balances because you're using their node.
374
00:32:19.125 --> 00:32:20.265
Worse than AOPP
375
00:32:20.565 --> 00:32:21.785
or better than AOPP?
376
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:23.140
Oh, man.
377
00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:24.179
I mean,
378
00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:28.100
379
00:32:29.535 --> 00:32:31.315
Because, I mean, they I mean, they basically
380
00:32:32.575 --> 00:32:34.995
it's a security versus privacy trade off,
381
00:32:35.455 --> 00:32:52.395
with with something like Casa or Unchained. Like, they're they're gonna see a 100% of, like, what you own, and that's pretty much we're not a 100% of what you are, at least, like, what you put on to their platforms. I know that's that's a 100% you. Right? Like, they they know it's your addresses, your ex pubs, your, you know, multisig quorum, whatever it is. And,
382
00:32:52.855 --> 00:32:54.155
I think there's some, like,
383
00:32:55.429 --> 00:33:08.775
like, I think you can sign up sort of, like, anonymously on Casa, but then, like, once you use their KYC buying service, like, you're already you're KYC'd right then and there. Yeah. I will give Casa the the benefit that they allow you to sign up under NIM,
384
00:33:10.355 --> 00:33:14.910
385
00:33:16.490 --> 00:33:32.160
386
00:33:32.780 --> 00:33:38.000
Right. Yeah. So I don't know. From a privacy perspective, using something like Unchained or Casa, like,
387
00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:39.520
isn't really
388
00:33:40.205 --> 00:33:47.870
a good model at all. You're you're you're you're trying to you're trying to improve your security at that point. And, you know, maybe,
389
00:33:48.730 --> 00:33:59.875
you know, maybe at the end of the day, we just have to, like, come to that decision. Like, talk to talk to our friends, talk to our people and be like, you know, what what do you value more right now? Security, privacy. Ideally, you can combine them both, but, like,
390
00:34:00.495 --> 00:34:11.940
you know, like like you said, line with your friend. Like, it's it's it's hard. You screw up your seat and then boom. That's that's you're over. I think Matt does bring up a good point, though. Like, no one's really out like, people are, like, constantly showing Casa
391
00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:25.640
392
00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:29.720
Casa. And, you know, no one mentions that. And it's, you know, like,
393
00:34:30.020 --> 00:34:49.150
people need to, like, you know, really break things down to, like, their core. And, like, okay. What like, what are we trying to achieve achieve here? Like, sovereignty and privacy. And, like, AOPP is a step in the wrong direction, but it's not the one thing to get mad about. Or, like, we need to, like, focus on, like, the real tools and, like, you know, like, running your own node using CoinJoin, all the stuff that, you know, people aren't always advocating.
394
00:34:49.450 --> 00:34:54.525
395
00:34:55.065 --> 00:34:56.125
with Trezor.
396
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.619
Trezor has a buy service built into their
397
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:09.475
Web Wallet, or they they now have Trezor Suite, which is, I guess, prob I think an Electron app anyway, but it's a new Web Wallet.
398
00:35:09.775 --> 00:35:11.715
And that uses Trezor's node
399
00:35:12.735 --> 00:35:16.435
to look up your transactions. Right? So that whole pros like, they know
400
00:35:17.030 --> 00:35:22.570
that those are your addresses. It's hooked directly into, like, the Trezor's whatever flow they have.
401
00:35:23.885 --> 00:35:32.625
402
00:35:33.080 --> 00:35:33.580
Treasure,
403
00:35:35.080 --> 00:35:57.549
Ledger. Ledger as well. I know they have, like, an open source Bitcoin only one that you can connect to your own node, but, like, most users aren't using that. Well, you can use all of these with your own node with, like, a Spectre or a Sparrow or Electrum or Blue Wallet. Right. Well, I mean 99% of Treasure and Ledger users are just logging into Ledger Live, using Ledger's What I meant was, Ledger Ledger Live has an open source version of their software,
404
00:35:58.454 --> 00:36:04.920
that you can connect to your own Bitcoin node. That's that's what I meant. But, yeah, you can use all these hardware wallets with, like, different software that doesn't connect.
405
00:36:05.640 --> 00:36:06.780
So, like, yeah, like
406
00:36:07.160 --> 00:36:17.535
like Ledger yeah. I mean, we we can only, like, sound the horn, like, so many times on, like, Ledger and Treasure. Right? Like, at least with AOPP, like, it just came out or at least It didn't, though.
407
00:36:18.555 --> 00:36:31.490
The information just got out there into the public opinion, and then and then we all, you know, went outraged about it. But, like, you know, you're on TFC Sabre every week, you know, sounding the horn on a lot of a lot of the stuff. And, and, you know, it's
408
00:36:31.865 --> 00:36:49.765
it's kinda I I don't wanna be, you know, pessimistic and say it's, like, old news at this point, but at least it's almost like what you said, Ben. Like, at least we're not stepping in in the wrong direction. Like, Casa is like an established business, and, you know, I don't know if they can ever get away from this whole idea that, like, you know, they know, you know, some of your information because you're literally trusting them
409
00:36:50.065 --> 00:36:52.325
with, with this information. So,
410
00:36:52.625 --> 00:37:08.815
you know, I don't know if that yeah. With a key and, you know, the part of your quorum and other that, like, there's there's almost, like, no way to change that, like, business model at this point. But at least we can take a, we can stop when, like, people are trying to go in a step in the wrong direction. Be like, no. That was a bad step. Like, backtrack.
411
00:37:09.675 --> 00:37:33.110
412
00:37:33.810 --> 00:37:46.875
413
00:37:47.175 --> 00:37:48.555
McDonald's can go fuck itself.
414
00:37:49.430 --> 00:37:53.450
But it's with Wallet or Satoshi or Blue Wallet, which are both custodial lightning wallets.
415
00:37:54.790 --> 00:37:57.130
416
00:37:57.885 --> 00:38:09.849
And like, for like mobile lighting laws that are like privacy preserving, like, it's hard. It's like, there's only like, you know, you can use Zeus, but you need to set up a node somewhere else. And a lot of people don't know how to do that. And then connecting it is even harder.
417
00:38:10.390 --> 00:38:13.770
Or you can use, like, Moon, but, it has, like With 2 u's.
418
00:38:14.230 --> 00:38:17.345
What do I use? I use Zeus. No. No. Moon has 2 use.
419
00:38:18.845 --> 00:38:23.825
420
00:38:24.940 --> 00:38:32.320
mining the slush pool and then buying tacos with his no k y c sets. Yeah. And he also did a moonshield and forgot to tell everyone that it was 2 years.
421
00:38:33.375 --> 00:38:39.795
422
00:38:40.310 --> 00:38:41.450
Zeus Zeus is amazing.
423
00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:43.290
That some of the new redesigns,
424
00:38:43.830 --> 00:38:46.330
that Evan's been working on is fantastic too.
425
00:38:46.790 --> 00:38:53.025
But honestly, from a privacy perspective, like with the current state of lightning, like, I love these, like,
426
00:38:53.725 --> 00:38:57.265
non custodial or sorry, non KYC lightning custodians
427
00:38:57.720 --> 00:39:04.060
from a simple fact that like I can hide like my true destination whenever I you know, share invoices and stuff. So,
428
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:15.005
429
00:39:15.410 --> 00:39:17.510
ciel dispatch 21. So ciel dispatch.com/cd21,
430
00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:22.150
and all we talked about was lightning privacy trade offs
431
00:39:22.744 --> 00:39:30.330
and techniques. So if if if you're interested in learning more about, you know, the nuances of lightning privacy, because there are a lot,
432
00:39:30.970 --> 00:39:36.990
go listen to that dispatcher. Go watch that dispatch. All the archives are on bitcoin tv.com if you wanna watch.
433
00:39:39.050 --> 00:39:39.550
But
434
00:39:39.905 --> 00:39:42.645
what what Tony was alluding to there is
435
00:39:43.265 --> 00:39:45.345
that when you use a custodial service, it
436
00:39:46.785 --> 00:39:48.640
the the the footprint
437
00:39:49.339 --> 00:39:51.920
looks like as well, if you use an on chain custodial
438
00:39:52.299 --> 00:39:52.799
service,
439
00:39:53.740 --> 00:39:55.760
the footprint looks like an on chain mixer.
440
00:39:56.155 --> 00:40:00.975
If you use a lightning custodial service, you're basically combined with all of those other transactions.
441
00:40:03.319 --> 00:40:05.099
You are still trusting the custodian
442
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:06.619
who can see everything.
443
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:16.905
But all else equal, if the is acting in good faith, if you use multiple custodians and the custodians have to include, there is a privacy benefit
444
00:40:17.900 --> 00:40:18.800
to an external
445
00:40:19.180 --> 00:40:47.914
446
00:40:48.775 --> 00:41:06.445
when you actually get off. So they know some of that information. Wipe the apps often. There's a lot of foot guns. Yeah. Yeah. And and then even then, they can start correlating. Like, if I wipe my device and then I, like, you know, install it on a whole new one, and then I'm still sending it. I'm the only person sending it to this one note. Then you can even correlate the 2 devices,
447
00:41:06.905 --> 00:41:15.839
the device IDs, and be like, yeah. That's probably the same person. This is the only device in the world that has ever withdrawn to this address. Right. They're sending to the same node pub key over and over again. Exactly.
448
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:18.319
Yeah. Receiving on lightning
449
00:41:19.005 --> 00:41:19.745
It's pretty
450
00:41:20.125 --> 00:41:22.065
451
00:41:24.525 --> 00:41:26.465
452
00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:35.500
453
00:41:35.825 --> 00:41:48.380
AOPP style things with lightning right now. Like, some people are using it for, you know, putting PII in memos and then having the user sign that. Posted that to the lightning mailing list. Yeah. That was yes I think it was yesterday or day before.
454
00:41:49.160 --> 00:41:57.375
Yeah. There was some discussion on that as well. Like, you know you know, let's not like, the it was the advocating, I think, some guy named Arm d something, but,
455
00:41:58.075 --> 00:41:59.615
there is an aspect where,
456
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:05.900
you know, memos aren't bad itself. Like, memos describe, you know, what the invoice, you know, you're paying for.
457
00:42:06.839 --> 00:42:07.285
But,
458
00:42:07.924 --> 00:42:36.000
when you start, like, putting PII information into these memos and then getting users to to, like, write this into the memo and then, like, create the invoice, what's actually happening is that invoice is basically a signed statement from your Hub key note. Right. Because memos are all signed Exactly. By default. Yeah. So you give out this invoice. It's a signed statement from your note. Like, people don't really And it's not even just explicit PII. Like, the story I always tell with MemoGate for me was that I was I was running,
459
00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:42.480
460
00:42:44.425 --> 00:42:50.925
and we had played, like, 5 or 6 times, and I'd always successfully not been the bank. And then one time, I got peer pressured into being the bank,
461
00:42:51.549 --> 00:42:54.849
And everyone wanted to pay with lightning because it's a hot new thing.
462
00:42:55.230 --> 00:42:56.130
So I
463
00:42:57.069 --> 00:42:59.730
sent out a bunch of invoices to people, and I put
464
00:43:00.165 --> 00:43:01.785
how I knew them, their NIM,
465
00:43:02.165 --> 00:43:03.065
dash poker,
466
00:43:03.765 --> 00:43:08.025
and one of the guys paid with Strike. And so now Strike knows
467
00:43:09.310 --> 00:43:10.930
my pub key and my node,
468
00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:13.010
so they know which,
469
00:43:13.390 --> 00:43:20.365
you know, fortunately, got stolen, but before that, I didn't really have good hygiene on that. So they knew I was in the poker game and that I was the bank,
470
00:43:20.745 --> 00:43:25.360
and then they knew his NIM connected to his personal information because he paid it.
471
00:43:26.240 --> 00:43:27.380
And in his defense,
472
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:43.540
unless he goes and actually decodes the lightning invoice before scanning with strike, he doesn't even know the memo says there's NIM in it until after he scans it with strike. Right? He scans it with strike, then he sees the memo. At that point, it's already on strike servers.
473
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.460
The doxing has already been done. Right. So this proposal
474
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.300
on the mailing list was,
475
00:43:50.385 --> 00:43:53.045
fuck it. Let's get rid of these memos altogether.
476
00:43:53.905 --> 00:44:00.220
Each person in a lightning transaction can keep memos locally if they wanna keep track of what their payments are,
477
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:05.180
but they don't have to actually be transferred in the invoice. Right? Yeah. Exactly.
478
00:44:05.635 --> 00:44:20.350
479
00:44:20.785 --> 00:44:32.470
now imagine, like, you know, in this case, Stripe knows that. Right? But chain analysis a few months back, just like, you know, said that they're, you know, somewhat supporting lightning. They weren't, like, super public about how they were doing it, but there is a podcast,
480
00:44:33.170 --> 00:44:39.349
for the Casa, you know, privacy thing that they had at the beginning of the year with me and Lisa and and Nava,
481
00:44:40.015 --> 00:44:40.515
Nadav,
482
00:44:41.535 --> 00:44:43.555
where we kinda, like, came to the conclusion,
483
00:44:43.855 --> 00:44:44.575
most mostly,
484
00:44:44.974 --> 00:44:46.115
she did like that.
485
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:49.940
Basically, like, they could be aggregating all of these, like, custodian,
486
00:44:50.400 --> 00:45:06.030
you know, invoices. Like, if they're doing anything, like, the laziest thing that they could be doing to support, like, chain analysis on lightning, it's just to, like, be tracking invoices. Like, who is what user is paying, what invoice, and, you know, what's the payment reason, and where's the note it's going to? Like, that alone
487
00:45:06.410 --> 00:45:10.270
is a scary thought that, like, people there's this aggregator of, like,
488
00:45:10.730 --> 00:45:16.884
associating payment reasons with notes. And I think, like, sure, there could be, like, some use cases where, like, you know, memos are useful.
489
00:45:17.585 --> 00:45:49.115
There is there is someone on the mailing list that was kind of advocating, well, at least at least, you know, if we get into the scenario where, you know, you can start using lightning privately and you have a really, know, good access to send it to, like, a private node. And then from there, no one can see what you're doing. Like, that's that's great. But, like, the current situation is, like, you know, users are getting fucked right now creating invoices, not realizing that, like, it's perfectly it's it's verifiable to the whole world if if someone were to get that invoice. So imagine everyone just tracking invoices
490
00:45:49.575 --> 00:45:51.495
and, you know, who's paying what note. It's,
491
00:45:51.895 --> 00:45:52.795
scary thought.
492
00:45:53.815 --> 00:45:55.355
493
00:45:55.655 --> 00:46:14.234
what I try to do nowadays is, like, if some if I'm gonna guess on an invoice, I would say, like, what are you paying it with? And they say strike. Okay. Oh, I put no invoice or or no memo. Or if they'd say, like, you know, oh, my Zeus or, you know, it's their local note. Okay. Okay. I'll put in the memo now so we can actually, you know, have accounting. But it sucks because it's like it makes the UX works.
494
00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:34.089
And, it's kind of sucks out. This is like ingrained into Lightning where, you know, it's like a Bitcoin address. There is no memo attached to that. So, you know, even if you're reusing an address every time, you're at least not telling, you know, Coinbase, like, oh, this is my rent payment. This is this. This is, you know, me buying drugs. You're just putting that at you're just giving them an address and it's you know, there's no context to it versus,
495
00:46:34.710 --> 00:46:38.970
the the lightning. It's all contextual. Like, the custodian can see that. So,
496
00:46:39.589 --> 00:46:43.545
it's nice. Like, lighting does have a fix for this already baked in with the description hash.
497
00:46:43.845 --> 00:46:56.850
Or you can, just give a hash of, like, the description, and then you can, get around that where, you know, there is no, like, easily readable memo, but it makes where selects where either the user needs to verify that description hash, like, outside
498
00:46:57.425 --> 00:47:04.645
or, like, a lot of people might just dumb. We just give the invoice with the that has the hash in it, but also give the the actual,
499
00:47:05.105 --> 00:47:10.500
memo. And then, you know, the wallet has it anyways now, even though it's not included in the invoice. So you need to like
500
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:12.820
it's a hard problem to solve. And
501
00:47:13.275 --> 00:47:16.015
I don't like for like a opera turn bot after his
502
00:47:16.395 --> 00:47:23.055
talk on the lightning, you know, privacy thing, I changed it. So it does the no longer it does the memo saying opera turn bot and it just says,
503
00:47:23.740 --> 00:47:27.599
you know, the, the head description hash and the user can verify it themselves. But,
504
00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:36.035
you know, my nose is the only one behind return button, you could just go through the messages and It doesn't work right now. Yeah. It doesn't work right now. Don't try it. But,
505
00:47:36.995 --> 00:47:42.660
like, the the the memos are pretty easy to figure out. Just off return back call and then the message that the,
506
00:47:43.540 --> 00:47:46.280
the the custodian could just go through all the messages that it's
507
00:47:47.075 --> 00:47:52.755
done and because those are all public and just find which invoice was there. So it's not a total solution, but,
508
00:47:53.234 --> 00:47:54.775
you know, it's hard. That's the problem.
509
00:47:55.610 --> 00:48:07.205
510
00:48:07.905 --> 00:48:11.925
putting in a memo. You said, you know, sometimes you'll ask people how they're gonna pay you.
511
00:48:12.690 --> 00:48:19.430
512
00:48:19.914 --> 00:48:20.734
Yeah. From,
513
00:48:21.115 --> 00:48:24.015
I forgot where's from tulips. Useful tulips.
514
00:48:24.315 --> 00:48:44.835
515
00:48:46.310 --> 00:49:00.105
516
00:49:01.500 --> 00:49:08.000
517
00:49:08.465 --> 00:49:10.885
I like to talk about it so we can try and preempt it.
518
00:49:12.225 --> 00:49:15.365
What I think the narrative around Bitcoin privacy is gonna be
519
00:49:15.905 --> 00:49:16.645
is that
520
00:49:17.720 --> 00:49:23.020
we're gonna see, you know, thought leaders and industry leaders and companies and stuff say,
521
00:49:23.560 --> 00:49:25.340
it's hard to use Bitcoin privately,
522
00:49:26.325 --> 00:49:26.825
but
523
00:49:27.765 --> 00:49:29.865
if you use it in a self sovereign way.
524
00:49:30.165 --> 00:49:33.705
But if you use us, we will give you bank level privacy,
525
00:49:34.165 --> 00:49:35.785
which is this idea that
526
00:49:36.230 --> 00:49:48.755
the person you're paying doesn't know information about you, or the person who's paying you doesn't know information about you, but instead, you're just trusting your whole financial life with a single regulated financial institution, which is the current banking system.
527
00:49:49.135 --> 00:49:51.474
It's the PayPal model. It's the Cash App model,
528
00:49:52.015 --> 00:49:56.720
in those so called peer to peer transactions. Like, if I pay you using Cash App, Fiat, or whatever,
529
00:49:57.740 --> 00:50:02.205
I don't know what you do with that money afterwards. I don't know how much money you have. Obviously, Cash App knows everything.
530
00:50:02.925 --> 00:50:04.545
So I kind of see that narrative
531
00:50:05.005 --> 00:50:05.505
happening,
532
00:50:05.885 --> 00:50:06.385
and
533
00:50:06.845 --> 00:50:11.345
what reminded me of it was Ben saying when he asked people how they pay them.
534
00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:14.160
Because what I do when people pay me on chain
535
00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:17.440
is I always try and look back at their transactions
536
00:50:18.060 --> 00:50:18.560
on,
537
00:50:19.180 --> 00:50:20.160
a block explorer.
538
00:50:20.855 --> 00:50:22.155
Right? So you open mempool.space,
539
00:50:23.815 --> 00:50:28.955
you put in the transaction ID or your receive address, and then you start clicking through and seeing,
540
00:50:29.349 --> 00:50:35.050
you know, how did they send this payment? Did they use CoinJoin? Did what do they do? Like, did it all just come from a single transaction?
541
00:50:36.845 --> 00:50:43.025
And a lot of people pay me directly from Cash App. And I confronted some of them, and they were like, Matt, we know
542
00:50:43.565 --> 00:50:45.505
that you're gonna look at our transactions.
543
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:52.420
So I pay you from Cash App so you can't see what my Huddl stash is. I pay you from Cash App so they have no
544
00:50:52.720 --> 00:50:56.099
so that that you have no sight into there. And they basically just
545
00:50:56.465 --> 00:50:58.645
say, I'm gonna trust this financial
546
00:50:59.425 --> 00:51:01.125
regulated party with my because
547
00:51:01.425 --> 00:51:03.525
I don't think I can do it myself.
548
00:51:04.560 --> 00:51:06.340
549
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:08.260
550
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:19.925
551
00:51:20.225 --> 00:51:22.565
also having perfect privacy inside the system.
552
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:24.640
That kinda solves it where you can,
553
00:51:25.200 --> 00:51:26.500
have these, like, you know,
554
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:38.415
these, like, easy, you know, custodians. We don't have to worry about coin joint and all that stuff, but then you can send out outside of it. And, like, but internally, you're still, like, perfect privacy, which is really nice. It's,
555
00:51:39.055 --> 00:51:41.155
556
00:51:41.549 --> 00:51:45.329
institution like Cash App would would implement something like that for their users?
557
00:51:45.710 --> 00:51:49.250
So that's that's that would be the problem. I would hope they would, but, yeah, it's
558
00:51:50.015 --> 00:51:54.035
559
00:51:54.735 --> 00:52:01.040
like, you know, the blue walls and walls of Toshi's of the world where, you know, there's improved privacy in the app, and then eventually,
560
00:52:01.660 --> 00:52:03.760
maybe someone would adopt it. I mean,
561
00:52:04.300 --> 00:52:05.520
I do like, like, what,
562
00:52:06.155 --> 00:52:14.175
like, bull Bitcoin. The reason they coin join all their user funds before sending it out is because they they say, like, their interpretation of the
563
00:52:14.490 --> 00:52:20.670
Canadian law is that if they don't do that, they're hurting the user's privacy. And that's against the law because of, like,
564
00:52:20.970 --> 00:52:30.265
GDPR or whatever privacy laws they have. So I think, you know, maybe you could try to get a lawyer to find that approach, but, you know, that's But even in that situation, I mean, I applaud Bull Bitcoin,
565
00:52:31.640 --> 00:52:34.859
566
00:52:36.040 --> 00:52:39.020
but it doesn't give the user any privacy from Bull Bitcoin.
567
00:52:39.414 --> 00:52:41.835
No. The user still needs to go and manually,
568
00:52:42.214 --> 00:52:51.010
you know, use CoinJoin or use another privacy technique after that. What we need are like the, you know, regulated entities, like shuffling people into
569
00:52:51.470 --> 00:52:56.285
570
00:52:56.585 --> 00:53:00.480
you know, receives. Like, you know, we suggest you withdraw to this wallet and then, you know
571
00:53:01.520 --> 00:53:07.540
572
00:53:08.825 --> 00:53:14.125
They're a self sovereign wallet that has, you know, collaborative transaction tools built into it.
573
00:53:14.825 --> 00:53:15.325
Right.
574
00:53:15.839 --> 00:54:02.474
575
00:54:02.775 --> 00:54:07.835
it's still it almost it's almost worse. It almost proves that they were coin joining right after Or you could do a hop.
576
00:54:08.230 --> 00:54:23.160
577
00:54:23.540 --> 00:54:25.859
578
00:54:27.940 --> 00:54:28.440
AOPP
579
00:54:28.740 --> 00:54:29.240
relays.
580
00:54:29.540 --> 00:54:30.280
So, like,
581
00:54:30.715 --> 00:54:35.055
so, like, if you built it into the wallet where, like, you were running Sparrow and, like,
582
00:54:35.355 --> 00:54:36.575
if if we were,
583
00:54:36.955 --> 00:54:38.655
I don't know, synced somehow,
584
00:54:39.020 --> 00:54:40.000
you could just manually
585
00:54:40.780 --> 00:54:41.680
feed me
586
00:54:42.220 --> 00:54:43.280
signature information.
587
00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:59.530
And you only need it at the time of payment and, like, you know, it's nice. It's, like, a BTC pay server is gonna be online, so you could just But I still think I go back to just this all being bullshit, and just the focus should be on educating users on the dangers of k y c and pushing back on
588
00:55:00.230 --> 00:55:06.570
589
00:55:07.175 --> 00:55:09.915
like, forced on a forced on a people,
590
00:55:10.855 --> 00:55:19.050
and that you know? Like, what is the only way to withdraw from Coinbase? Right. At that point, we just have to an address. Like, we just have to be more aggressive in just recommending,
591
00:55:19.590 --> 00:55:27.345
you know, solutions like peer to peer or or or or or Bisc or something like that. Like, would that be Or mining. Right. Or mining. Or selling goods and services.
592
00:55:27.645 --> 00:55:34.390
593
00:55:35.250 --> 00:55:37.109
depending on how cut your state is,
594
00:55:37.650 --> 00:55:44.325
where they only require a phone number, and that could be a burner phone number. Right. But how many Bitcoiners do you know like, even even the hardcore
595
00:55:44.945 --> 00:55:52.109
596
00:55:52.410 --> 00:56:11.210
that we can we can do it in, like, the most self sovereign, like, peer to peer way. Like, we're we're saying all this. Like, yeah, don't use Coinbase, and, like, we're still using Cash App. Like, we're not even proving the point that we can we can do this ourselves. So, like, we're not leading by example, I think, enough. Like, I recently deleted all my KYC services. I don't use any KYC services
597
00:56:11.995 --> 00:56:12.495
598
00:56:12.875 --> 00:56:36.410
599
00:56:36.950 --> 00:56:57.650
600
00:56:57.950 --> 00:56:59.650
before they, like, realize that
601
00:56:59.950 --> 00:57:10.224
they wanna know KYC. But a lot of people, you know, they need to own a lot of Bitcoin before they started really understanding, like, why they want to own this thing. So it's it's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem, which is hard. But,
602
00:57:11.109 --> 00:57:14.730
you know, it's just like more education is, like, kinda what we need to do, I guess.
603
00:57:15.990 --> 00:57:16.730
604
00:57:17.030 --> 00:57:18.410
605
00:57:18.710 --> 00:57:20.335
are the key. Yeah.
606
00:57:21.275 --> 00:57:21.595
But
607
00:57:23.995 --> 00:57:25.295
so if you were
608
00:57:25.995 --> 00:57:26.555
there's still
609
00:57:28.070 --> 00:57:32.570
I I assume you don't believe that there's no room for KYC services.
610
00:57:33.350 --> 00:57:34.730
And if that's the case,
611
00:57:35.430 --> 00:57:36.810
then what does the ideal
612
00:57:37.855 --> 00:57:40.115
KYC Bitcoin on ramp look like?
613
00:57:40.655 --> 00:57:42.595
614
00:57:44.710 --> 00:57:55.335
is you have, like, a chammin inside of it, so you could you know, the the exchange never knows who you're sending to. That'd be ideal. And then But how does that look how does that look in practice? Does that look like,
615
00:57:57.315 --> 00:57:58.295
616
00:57:59.474 --> 00:58:01.255
is there is is there a separate,
617
00:58:02.109 --> 00:58:06.349
open source wallet that the user is withdrawing to where it happens? Because if it happens at
618
00:58:07.070 --> 00:58:10.210
if it happens prior to withdraw, it doesn't really help anything.
619
00:58:10.545 --> 00:58:19.605
620
00:58:21.460 --> 00:58:22.599
Trying to get a clever
621
00:58:23.140 --> 00:58:31.335
renaming of it. But, yeah, I mean, theoretically, you could, like, do the same thing of a coin joint instead of, like, registering your inputs. You just register, like, a blind exchange
622
00:58:31.715 --> 00:58:37.420
withdrawal from the exchange. And the exchange only knows that, like, these 5 users withdrew in this
623
00:58:38.220 --> 00:58:41.359
coin join. They don't know which address belongs to that user afterwards.
624
00:58:41.660 --> 00:58:46.160
So you could theoretically do something like that where the the exchange just doesn't know your withdrawal
625
00:58:46.645 --> 00:58:49.305
addresses. They just know which one you're in this transaction
626
00:58:49.845 --> 00:58:50.905
of how many people.
627
00:58:51.444 --> 00:58:55.444
628
00:58:56.325 --> 00:59:11.075
first first of all, the Tommy Mint thing you keep bringing up, I had Eric Serian on dispatch. I don't I'm not Stefan Levera. I don't know which episode it was, but it was a really good conversation on it. He thinks it's, like, 2 and a half years away or something like that. Far away. And that's, like, the optimistic take. So
629
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:17.220
630
00:59:18.080 --> 00:59:27.845
you know, if if if you you could do something like there's a withdrawal request and and and you, you know, you you know, you're about to withdraw with, like, a whole bunch of other users and, like, people can anonymously,
631
00:59:28.385 --> 00:59:32.880
in a way, submit like, they can redeem their request and, like, submit to, like, a random,
632
00:59:33.500 --> 00:59:35.440
like, random address that, you know,
633
00:59:36.060 --> 00:59:37.440
634
00:59:38.060 --> 00:59:39.200
a withdrawal from,
635
00:59:40.335 --> 00:59:48.425
not withdrawal, but, like, the same way you register a coin join in, like, samurai, wasabi, or join market, you could register withdrawal the same way. It's from an exchange and,
636
00:59:49.160 --> 00:59:51.740
you know, just you know, you're just dishonestly giving an address.
637
00:59:52.040 --> 00:59:55.660
638
00:59:56.665 --> 00:59:59.085
when you're when you're doing that CoinJoin transaction,
639
01:00:02.025 --> 01:00:04.445
it's basically a bunch of partially signed Bitcoin transactions.
640
01:00:04.745 --> 01:00:04.985
You're
641
01:00:06.100 --> 01:00:15.160
you know which address you're sending it to. You alone know which address you're receiving it to. The other participants don't know which participant it it is. Right?
642
01:00:15.515 --> 01:00:18.975
643
01:00:19.835 --> 01:00:22.335
everyone has, like, inputs and they give, like, a blinded,
644
01:00:23.115 --> 01:00:25.000
output to the coordinator.
645
01:00:25.540 --> 01:00:30.040
And the coordinator signs it, and then you use that sign thing to prove that you did register inputs,
646
01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:32.120
and you give it unblinded to the
647
01:00:32.474 --> 01:00:51.165
coordinator. So they say, like, oh, okay. Here's this person, I signed it there. They already signed the registered inputs. I don't know which inputs. And then here's their address to withdraw to, and then they get it. In the exchange, you're instead of, like, registering inputs, you'd, like, go and, like, register a withdrawal, like, you know, same way that you do in, like, a GUI. And then you would just,
648
01:00:51.645 --> 01:00:55.105
you know, the app would separately would request the
649
01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:05.085
withdrawal with the, like, the signed with, edge address with the blinded signature. So it's kind of like the similar thing. It's just instead of giving a Bitcoin input, you just say, here's a
650
01:01:05.705 --> 01:01:14.640
request withdrawal. So it's theoretically possible. It's just, you know, I don't know if that exchange would stay up long. They actually implemented it. Because of regulators. Yeah. Exactly.
651
01:01:15.180 --> 01:01:21.500
652
01:01:22.175 --> 01:01:24.995
that you're trying to solve in that kind of situation is
653
01:01:25.775 --> 01:01:26.435
the exchange
654
01:01:26.815 --> 01:01:32.170
not being able to know what the withdrawal address is. Mhmm. Right? Because right now, the exchange knows your full,
655
01:01:33.589 --> 01:01:35.369
identity information that they
656
01:01:35.990 --> 01:01:37.050
ask you for,
657
01:01:37.805 --> 01:01:47.490
and then they know your withdrawal addresses. And from there, that information could be used to track future transactions and balances. Right. Like, if we could get something like blinded pass on lightning and,
658
01:01:48.910 --> 01:01:51.890
659
01:01:52.510 --> 01:01:53.010
specifically
660
01:01:53.310 --> 01:01:58.405
blinded pass because I don't think you can just think the center has to be aware of it to be able to do it.
661
01:01:58.865 --> 01:02:14.744
And so who who knows if if exchanges would even want to support that or or can support, like, not knowing where the payment is gonna end up. But I I hope line of pass become a thing online. I think it'll be a lot better once it is, but, you know, exchanges may just, like, decide not to support that. And, optimistically,
662
01:02:15.365 --> 01:02:23.050
663
01:02:24.550 --> 01:02:26.170
Does Gemini support shielded,
664
01:02:27.270 --> 01:02:27.770
shielded?
665
01:02:28.150 --> 01:02:34.684
And there's somewhat Monero too. Right. So so here's that's the example I'm gonna say is Monero. Right? Monero has stealth addresses.
666
01:02:38.359 --> 01:02:38.859
Theoretically,
667
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.220
the way it's designed is you would draw to
668
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:43.500
to
669
01:02:43.855 --> 01:02:48.275
to this Monero address that looks like a Bitcoin address from but that from that point forward,
670
01:02:48.975 --> 01:02:49.695
they can't,
671
01:02:50.095 --> 01:02:53.680
tell where your your Bitcoin where your Monero goes from that point.
672
01:02:55.839 --> 01:02:58.180
There's still a massive contingent of
673
01:02:58.720 --> 01:03:03.300
of Monero users that believe that that KYC Monero is an attack on Monero.
674
01:03:03.745 --> 01:03:10.005
Like, the the is that KYC threat still exists in that situation. Right? Yeah. Because it's still, like, you know
675
01:03:10.680 --> 01:03:17.020
676
01:03:17.855 --> 01:03:23.635
677
01:03:24.015 --> 01:03:25.075
You use CoinJoin.
678
01:03:28.160 --> 01:03:35.059
Let's say you don't shoot yourself in the foot and you use it properly, and they the exchange can't tell where your transactions go forward.
679
01:03:35.855 --> 01:03:40.515
Right. Does it does it mitigate some of the rest risks of KYC? Yeah. But it doesn't completely
680
01:03:42.255 --> 01:03:45.395
681
01:03:46.320 --> 01:03:52.660
Like, sure, they know you bought Bitcoin, that you made a withdrawal, but it's afterwards that you you wish the exchange
682
01:03:53.015 --> 01:03:56.154
doesn't know or any regulated entity knows at all.
683
01:03:56.615 --> 01:04:08.810
Like, you know, enlightening your node pub key, like an exchange shouldn't need to know that at all. They just need to know that you withdrew. Sure. They know that like, ideally, they they don't know anything. But if you're buying Bitcoin from them, then they're gonna know that.
684
01:04:09.430 --> 01:04:09.930
685
01:04:10.375 --> 01:04:10.875
And
686
01:04:11.975 --> 01:04:15.355
687
01:04:15.895 --> 01:04:26.980
that someone's gonna, like, buy my name and picture of my ID on the dark web and use it to, like, steal my identity and rack up like that, then, yeah, then KYC is, like, the only threat there. And who cares if I coinjoin?
688
01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:31.815
If If your concern is, like, the government's gonna come knock on my door and try to beat me down for my Bitcoin,
689
01:04:32.275 --> 01:04:35.575
KYC then is also important threat there. But if it's like, I don't want,
690
01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:48.265
Matt to know my, you know, HODL stack, then KYC doesn't really matter, and I want to coinjoin. Like, it's kinda depending on what you're trying to optimize for here. Ideally, you wanna, you know, avoid all of those things. You do everything. But,
691
01:04:48.965 --> 01:04:52.905
you know, it's hard. If you if you don't think the government's gonna break down your door and kill you,
692
01:04:53.349 --> 01:05:08.415
then maybe, like, KYC is a okay trade off if you're not gonna, you know, take the chances. But, you know, obviously, we don't think that's worth it. But yeah. But, I mean, it's not just our it's not your own government that's the only threat. Right? Yeah. Like, we we've seen I mean, China has,
693
01:05:10.270 --> 01:05:15.550
694
01:05:16.625 --> 01:05:18.244
our government can't even protect,
695
01:05:18.785 --> 01:05:37.905
696
01:05:38.765 --> 01:05:40.705
just prime for it to be attacked completely.
697
01:05:44.430 --> 01:05:44.930
698
01:05:49.444 --> 01:05:51.065
So that was a somber conversation.
699
01:05:52.964 --> 01:05:59.170
700
01:05:59.550 --> 01:06:02.690
701
01:06:03.070 --> 01:06:05.490
limit yourself to your exposure to KYC,
702
01:06:06.085 --> 01:06:14.745
don't go and sign up for, like, 8 different KYC services, which a lot of newcomers do. They sign up for everything fucking under the sun, handing their information to everybody.
703
01:06:15.500 --> 01:06:17.440
Ideally, avoid KYC altogether.
704
01:06:17.980 --> 01:06:20.240
And regardless, in either situation,
705
01:06:20.620 --> 01:06:26.484
you should learn about privacy best practices and improving your understanding of Bitcoin so you can use it more privately.
706
01:06:28.464 --> 01:06:32.805
707
01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:38.750
Or they think it's too hard to get KYC free Bitcoin. It's, like, it's not that hard. Like, Biscuit is not that bad to use.
708
01:06:39.210 --> 01:06:46.755
And, you know, if you go to your local meetup, there's, you know, like if you're in Austin, it's like 200 people there. There's there's gonna be one person selling Bitcoin there.
709
01:06:47.455 --> 01:06:49.315
And, you know, or if you're,
710
01:06:49.935 --> 01:06:59.715
you know, there there's lots of, like, different ways to do it. And if you try hard enough, you'll find it's not that hard. Like And yeah. And when it comes down to, like, I think in terms of, like, the dispatch
711
01:07:00.495 --> 01:07:00.995
712
01:07:03.215 --> 01:07:07.710
to, like, all the people that are listening to this, I mean, when you go and onboard your friends and family,
713
01:07:08.570 --> 01:07:10.190
like, don't just hand them off
714
01:07:10.730 --> 01:07:15.035
to a KYC service. Like, they should get their first stats from you,
715
01:07:15.434 --> 01:07:16.255
but no KYC
716
01:07:16.555 --> 01:07:18.095
and a self custody wallet,
717
01:07:19.275 --> 01:07:21.615
that ideally you've done some research on.
718
01:07:22.555 --> 01:07:29.280
And, like, a perfect example of that to me is, you know, first of all, I love, you know, giving wedding gifts and birthday gifts as sets.
719
01:07:31.020 --> 01:07:33.120
Open Dimes are fucking awesome for that.
720
01:07:33.500 --> 01:07:34.320
Or, like,
721
01:07:34.645 --> 01:07:36.585
you go out to dinner, right,
722
01:07:38.325 --> 01:07:44.345
and one of your friends decides to pay with his his, you know, surveillance capitalism card, his credit card,
723
01:07:45.029 --> 01:07:47.049
pay him back in sets. Right?
724
01:07:48.390 --> 01:07:50.089
Let them get a taste of
725
01:07:50.549 --> 01:07:56.515
726
01:07:56.895 --> 01:08:01.635
local economy of of of people just, you know, buying and selling stats
727
01:08:02.230 --> 01:08:03.050
to each other,
728
01:08:04.230 --> 01:08:05.910
just on on a normal basis.
729
01:08:06.230 --> 01:08:08.730
Whether if it's the cards or whether if it's, you know,
730
01:08:09.430 --> 01:08:50.285
I'm buying something from you, and I'll just, you know, 30, 20 $20 worth of stats for it. I would love to see more local local as a spin up. And I think, like, you know, there's meetups spinning up all the time. And so it's like, yeah, like what Ben was saying, like, just walk in your meetup and say, like, hey. I'm I'm having trouble, like, you know, where where should I really go to, you know, to buy Bitcoin or or whatever. And and, if I'm trying to be, like, the most private, like, people will help you with that. Yeah. Like, there's usually gonna be one guy that is trying to sell or there's gonna be, like, 4 people that know the best ATM in town that can get you some. It's like, you know, definitely just talk to people. You know, your local community is, like, one of the best places to to find help on that. But the key is the key is the KYC requirements. Like, if you start
731
01:08:51.625 --> 01:09:01.610
732
01:09:02.870 --> 01:09:05.770
That's to me, that should be the crux of
733
01:09:08.455 --> 01:09:15.035
debate and improvement. And I feel like a lot of times, like, we have these technical Bitcoin conversations about how to improve Bitcoin privacy,
734
01:09:16.200 --> 01:09:20.460
and it's almost like the KYC element isn't even really considered.
735
01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:21.580
Mhmm. Like,
736
01:09:22.280 --> 01:09:25.260
where we have and, like, I have so much respect for
737
01:09:25.725 --> 01:09:28.385
our open source developers and all the people that make
738
01:09:28.845 --> 01:09:30.145
these projects possible,
739
01:09:31.005 --> 01:09:32.865
but a lot of times it's just, like,
740
01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:38.220
it's kinda, like, just hand waved away, like, don't they shouldn't be using KYC.
741
01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:41.660
So, like, I go back and forth where, like, I feel like
742
01:09:42.165 --> 01:09:48.985
first and foremost, we should be trying to educate people on the dangers of KYC. We should be ideally having people avoid KYC.
743
01:09:49.810 --> 01:09:51.030
We want to nurture
744
01:09:51.409 --> 01:09:53.989
a circular economy where people aren't buying Bitcoin.
745
01:09:54.530 --> 01:09:57.670
They're earning Bitcoin. They're not selling Bitcoin. They're spending Bitcoin.
746
01:09:58.155 --> 01:10:01.215
All of these things help mitigate the issues, but at the same time,
747
01:10:02.395 --> 01:10:04.975
when we're talking about tools that are being built on Bitcoin,
748
01:10:05.595 --> 01:10:06.895
at least right now,
749
01:10:08.260 --> 01:10:11.080
especially when it comes to privacy, those tools should be
750
01:10:11.540 --> 01:10:12.040
operating
751
01:10:12.340 --> 01:10:16.280
under the assumption that most of those users are KYC users. Right?
752
01:10:18.005 --> 01:10:19.784
753
01:10:20.085 --> 01:10:21.224
of of that?
754
01:10:25.040 --> 01:10:26.980
755
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:37.775
using your own node, practicing coin control, labeling your addresses, which is something we didn't talk about right now, which everyone should also be doing.
756
01:10:38.635 --> 01:10:43.060
I think that's probably the bare minimum in terms of trying to use your privacy,
757
01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:46.340
but all of that information is also saved
758
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:48.100
by KYC parties,
759
01:10:48.400 --> 01:10:48.900
right,
760
01:10:49.635 --> 01:10:51.175
regardless of you doing that
761
01:10:51.795 --> 01:10:52.455
in practice.
762
01:10:53.315 --> 01:10:54.855
Or talking about
763
01:10:57.429 --> 01:10:57.929
improvements
764
01:10:58.230 --> 01:10:59.050
to how,
765
01:11:01.030 --> 01:11:03.690
Lightning privacy works in terms of opening channels.
766
01:11:05.054 --> 01:11:13.155
But the reality of the situation is you do a collaborative transaction to open a lightning channel in the future maybe when that's possible, which should be awesome.
767
01:11:13.630 --> 01:11:16.369
And then, you know, 9 of the 10 participants are KYC'd.
768
01:11:18.429 --> 01:11:24.045
Did you really gain much? I mean, you gained something on chain there in terms of on chain footprint, but in practice,
769
01:11:25.305 --> 01:11:27.405
you didn't gain as much as you thought you did.
770
01:11:27.785 --> 01:11:37.570
771
01:11:38.829 --> 01:11:40.290
I don't want to get into like
772
01:11:40.670 --> 01:12:00.765
coin join wars or anything, but wasn't there an argument of, like, you know, one implementation is a coin join. It was just mostly like a single exchange, You know? So it's like, what what do you what privacy are you gaining if if, like, all the users you know, if one exchange is, like, all the all the all the, you know, outputs, then it's like, you know, you're not not as private as as you think you are. And and I think you're,
773
01:12:01.225 --> 01:12:01.725
and
774
01:12:02.105 --> 01:12:25.034
I think you're right. I think there's still a lot of better privacy improvements that we can we can have, like, on individual nodes and wallets and stuff. Like, I don't know any lightning wall besides Zeus that has, like, you know, you can tag, like, on chain transactions or or things like that. Like, I definitely love to see, you know, more, you know, more privacy stuff in the open source realm, and there was a wasabi grant, not too long ago, like, you know, designing the most, you know, private,
775
01:12:26.050 --> 01:12:29.270
lightning wallet that you could. So there's still a lot of improvements to have.
776
01:12:29.969 --> 01:12:36.155
It's just like getting the developers to, like, focus on that when it's not necessarily, like you know?
777
01:12:36.775 --> 01:12:42.555
There's no, like, business model there in a lot of ways sometimes. You know? But that was what's interesting about the centralized coordinated
778
01:12:43.210 --> 01:12:45.869
779
01:12:46.730 --> 01:12:49.790
just to bring us back to the earlier conversation, up until that point,
780
01:12:50.329 --> 01:12:51.710
the main way that
781
01:12:52.165 --> 01:12:52.665
noncustodial
782
01:12:53.045 --> 01:12:56.585
open source wallets monetized was by integrating KYC services.
783
01:12:57.525 --> 01:13:03.240
Right? But all of a sudden, with these CoinJoin fees, there was a way for them to monetize directly in Sats,
784
01:13:04.180 --> 01:13:09.000
ideally incentivized to help their users' privacy at the same time without collecting
785
01:13:09.765 --> 01:13:12.425
personal information or taking custody of any funds.
786
01:13:13.605 --> 01:13:19.510
787
01:13:20.070 --> 01:13:22.969
788
01:13:26.309 --> 01:13:38.770
789
01:13:39.230 --> 01:13:45.890
you know, it's a whole thing. And, you know, no one's perfect. Unless you're Satoshi, no one says, like, really mastered perfect privacy. So
790
01:13:47.355 --> 01:13:48.335
it's hard, but
791
01:13:48.635 --> 01:13:50.815
I I do hope people start doing it. Like,
792
01:13:51.675 --> 01:13:52.495
I don't know.
793
01:13:52.795 --> 01:14:04.505
Sabia and Sam are doing pretty well. And, like, kinda like, you know, when wasabi was a single address, you could tell how much money they're making and, like Yeah. 1st year, they made 50 Bitcoin and fees, like Yeah. That's a good amount of money. Like
794
01:14:04.985 --> 01:14:05.485
so
795
01:14:06.905 --> 01:14:11.710
796
01:14:12.010 --> 01:14:15.150
797
01:14:15.450 --> 01:14:27.305
798
01:14:27.940 --> 01:14:28.440
funneling,
799
01:14:28.900 --> 01:14:34.840
funds through the lightning network and, you know, paying for those fees. So you're, like, helping all the nodes on the network
800
01:14:35.285 --> 01:14:36.585
that are providing liquidity,
801
01:14:37.685 --> 01:14:38.585
things like that.
802
01:14:43.650 --> 01:14:44.150
803
01:14:44.610 --> 01:14:45.650
I think that is,
804
01:14:46.770 --> 01:14:49.510
good points all around. I think we have provided some good actionable
805
01:14:50.290 --> 01:14:51.510
steps there. Also,
806
01:14:52.465 --> 01:14:57.045
2 episodes ago, it was just we just straight talked about KYC as well. So,
807
01:14:58.305 --> 01:15:01.045
if that element of the conversation interests you,
808
01:15:01.690 --> 01:15:04.830
consider going back and listening to that seal dispatch
809
01:15:05.130 --> 01:15:05.630
51.
810
01:15:06.170 --> 01:15:07.630
Just did some basic math.
811
01:15:10.725 --> 01:15:13.785
So, guys, you wanna switch to maybe
812
01:15:14.245 --> 01:15:15.945
something a little bit more positive.
813
01:15:17.730 --> 01:15:22.310
What are we what are you guys most excited about in the next couple months
814
01:15:22.610 --> 01:15:25.910
in Bitcoin land? What should we have to look forward to?
815
01:15:26.685 --> 01:15:28.605
816
01:15:29.485 --> 01:15:32.625
817
01:15:33.485 --> 01:15:37.480
It was very good. Was it Benz Bites? Yeah. Ben's Bites dot I o.
818
01:15:38.340 --> 01:15:43.720
And you were talking about Taproot a little bit. You wanna go into it? Or Yeah. Like, I Taproot was, you know, activated
819
01:15:44.100 --> 01:15:45.080
820
01:15:45.595 --> 01:16:03.245
And, I tried to highlight in that, like, just basically, like, it happens, and these are all the things that are happening next or should be happening next. And, like, we're making a lot of progress, it seems like. It's like Bitcoin's like this like, so, like, when bit when Taproot activated, a lot of Sharecoiners are like, oh, look. No one's using it. What a failure. But it's like, no.
821
01:16:05.725 --> 01:16:06.945
Like Right. We're actually decentralized. We don't just have products ready.
822
01:16:07.325 --> 01:16:07.725
So,
823
01:16:09.245 --> 01:16:11.165
so, like, the things are happening now where
824
01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:15.900
like, music too, the implementation of that just got merged. So that'll allow,
825
01:16:16.760 --> 01:16:28.070
people to do, like, multisig that looks like single sig in a clean way. That's, the, like, the actual cryptography. If library merged that, it's now like they're working on a BIP so they can standardize the process of how to do all that stuff.
826
01:16:28.869 --> 01:16:33.929
What else did I have in there? There's, like, frost, which is, like, the even better version of that. So you could do threshold signatures.
827
01:16:36.230 --> 01:16:37.770
Fuck. What else is in there?
828
01:16:39.335 --> 01:16:58.885
So but what does this mean for the what does this mean to the average Bitcoiner who who's listening right now? Like, what can they what can they look forward to? So and there's just a lot of, like like, you know, it's some of the stuff is probably, like, a year or 2 away, if not more. But it's like I thought we were about to have Justin join us. Almost. He just brought us a laptop.
829
01:16:59.344 --> 01:16:59.844
But,
830
01:17:00.625 --> 01:17:29.790
you know, it so, yeah, music and Frost is the 2 first two things I had where, like, these are, like, really important things that just, like, for 1, it helps with user privacy, whereas you're, like if you're using something like Casa or in chains, it's very obvious on chain that you're using a multisig and that can they go. But see, that goes back to my earlier example. Right? We're, like, oh, like, you can hide that you're using a multisig, but they're just doxing all their addresses to this regulated party anyway. Yeah. So but, like, say for the, like, the multisig we're in for the,
831
01:17:30.555 --> 01:17:36.495
832
01:17:38.540 --> 01:17:40.719
833
01:17:42.780 --> 01:17:51.375
you know, it's obvious that we're using a multisig there. So, you know, if we had a new sig, they they feel like you could have said that and be like, oh my gosh. All the funds are gone. It's on a single sig.
834
01:17:51.755 --> 01:17:54.494
So, like, you know, there's that nice, like, you know,
835
01:17:54.850 --> 01:18:10.190
privacy aspect. And this will be like even more useful for things like off chain protocols, like lightning or liquid or DLCs where these things that, like, just basically just is it just a big multisig on chain? Can just hide now and just look like a normal user wallet. So it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.
836
01:18:11.310 --> 01:18:16.130
837
01:18:16.670 --> 01:18:18.930
every lightning channel open is a multisig
838
01:18:19.614 --> 01:18:20.114
transaction.
839
01:18:20.494 --> 01:18:34.130
840
01:18:35.230 --> 01:18:39.655
like, plausible deniability. You're not just doxing exactly what channel, UTXO you own.
841
01:18:40.355 --> 01:18:44.855
What else I have here? Oh, yeah. And then I went into stuff on Bitcoin Core and how it treats Taproot
842
01:18:46.440 --> 01:18:52.040
or all soft forks. And then Liquid also activated Taproot, which is pretty cool, where they
843
01:18:53.265 --> 01:18:56.165
844
01:18:58.705 --> 01:19:00.165
Jeremy Rubin's proposal.
845
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:10.545
CTV is on there? Yeah. Because, like, no one uses liquid, so they might as well use the experimental shit that people disagree on. Right? Yeah. They got, like, more federated members than users.
846
01:19:11.985 --> 01:19:14.005
847
01:19:16.065 --> 01:19:18.645
848
01:19:21.000 --> 01:19:26.620
I mean, like, when people talk about liquid, they talk about, you know, the fact that they have confidential transactions built in.
849
01:19:28.614 --> 01:19:36.715
But, you know, I'm good friends with Josh, the guy who runs the single best Bitcoin events or any event that exists, which would be stake.
850
01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:43.760
And he added liquid support. And only a single person bought their ticket via liquid, and I knew exactly who it was because
851
01:19:44.855 --> 01:19:46.315
there's a handful of them.
852
01:19:47.335 --> 01:19:50.715
853
01:19:51.335 --> 01:19:52.310
854
01:19:53.750 --> 01:19:55.610
Justin says the 2nd best event.
855
01:19:56.470 --> 01:19:57.210
It's heckling.
856
01:19:57.590 --> 01:19:59.210
Yeah. So they added, like,
857
01:20:00.125 --> 01:20:03.505
things like off check ops checksig from Stack
858
01:20:03.885 --> 01:20:13.540
859
01:20:14.240 --> 01:20:18.375
what what are we excited about for the year coming? Like, is there
860
01:20:18.795 --> 01:20:23.054
861
01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:29.360
862
01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:34.065
where we're launching, like, really, like, the ability to buy gift cards with, Lightning,
863
01:20:35.005 --> 01:21:00.510
initially, and then building, like, all your banking services. So the idea is, like, have, like starting with, like, a no KYC app. There's very good privacy so you could spend your Bitcoin without being able to, like, you know, dox yourself and go to the rest of the world. Because, like, we have, like, friends in Austin, like or one of them, he doesn't even own a bank account and he just uses Bitcoin to buy everything, like, either through, like, gift cards and stuff. But, like, it's really annoying where he's, like, either, like, taking, like, a 6% cut buying a gift card on Amazon
864
01:21:01.210 --> 01:21:01.710
or
865
01:21:02.725 --> 01:21:10.085
or just, like, going through friends and stuff. And that's not, you know, not usable because, you know, maybe when I go, I don't have time to go buy a gift card for you, bro. So
866
01:21:11.430 --> 01:21:13.850
but this where you can buy up up to a $10,000
867
01:21:14.230 --> 01:21:18.969
worth of Visa gift cards a day and get stats back on it. So, like, you could really live on your Bitcoin.
868
01:21:21.655 --> 01:21:22.155
Yeah.
869
01:21:22.614 --> 01:21:26.875
870
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:30.980
just on the record, don't think that's gonna last.
871
01:21:32.400 --> 01:21:39.574
I mean, what's this? Davis Moon's doing it. I see, one of the Bens is in the matrix chat. Hell, yeah.
872
01:21:40.994 --> 01:21:42.534
873
01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:48.820
874
01:21:49.199 --> 01:21:50.500
875
01:21:51.255 --> 01:21:52.635
Visa gift cards with lightning
876
01:21:53.415 --> 01:21:55.195
or I think on chain too.
877
01:21:55.815 --> 01:21:56.215
And,
878
01:21:57.415 --> 01:22:05.670
it's the same, like, concept where you could just, like, you know, if you wanna check on Amazon, you just buy a Visa gift card then check out. And, you know, you're not doxing.
879
01:22:06.050 --> 01:22:07.270
For 1, like, you're
880
01:22:07.795 --> 01:22:11.415
banking info with your, like, your credit card, and then you can spend your actual Bitcoin.
881
01:22:13.235 --> 01:22:14.615
So that's, like, the main benefit.
882
01:22:15.040 --> 01:22:17.620
883
01:22:18.080 --> 01:22:18.900
worth of
884
01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:20.980
Visa gift cards
885
01:22:21.680 --> 01:22:26.405
or, like, prepaid Visa credit cards, basically. Right? Yeah. Without KYC,
886
01:22:27.505 --> 01:22:35.210
there's really no reason to sell on the KYC exchange unless you Yeah. Wanna panic dump your whole fucking stuff. The main problem is, like,
887
01:22:36.550 --> 01:22:40.170
888
01:22:40.789 --> 01:22:43.035
on on a single card at at once. So, like,
889
01:22:43.495 --> 01:22:54.360
if I wanted to buy, like, a brand new laptop, I couldn't use something like this unless they support, like, the purse the merchant Well, it's credit card. Multiple credit cards, and I don't I don't really see that very often if at all.
890
01:22:54.900 --> 01:22:58.200
891
01:22:59.195 --> 01:23:00.555
892
01:23:01.755 --> 01:23:04.094
893
01:23:04.635 --> 01:23:07.614
Well, at least with payment moons, it expires after 60 days.
894
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:15.619
They've added some cool features where you could, like if you still have a little bit of balance on 1, you can, like or or a little bit of balance on, like, multiple, you can, like, turn
895
01:23:15.925 --> 01:23:21.065
those cards into, like, a single card so you can consolidate. You you're basically, like, creating a whole new card.
896
01:23:21.525 --> 01:23:25.750
So that's very, like, iffy on, like, you know, like, how are they how are they doing this? But,
897
01:23:26.470 --> 01:23:32.765
they are, and, they're, you know, they're working closely with Visa to, like, make sure they're, you know, doing the right things that they're supposed to do. But,
898
01:23:33.565 --> 01:23:40.350
my main problem with it is, like, it's just an extension extension for Chrome right now, and, like, you can't use it any other way.
899
01:23:40.910 --> 01:23:48.370
So I'd love to see, you know, something where I could, like, you know, load up an app or or, you know, just something that's not a Chrome extension,
900
01:23:49.054 --> 01:23:53.875
to be able to to use some of these services. It's hard to use an extension privately. Yeah. Yeah.
901
01:23:54.735 --> 01:23:56.994
902
01:23:57.720 --> 01:24:02.940
Just give me, like, a nice web thing, pop up a lightning invoice, let me pay for it,
903
01:24:04.885 --> 01:24:13.225
and then give me the fucking card. Yeah. Exactly. But, like, companies don't like that because they like the stickiness of the extension and probably all the data collection that it brings. Right?
904
01:24:14.490 --> 01:24:20.590
905
01:24:20.970 --> 01:24:27.835
track record when they originally launched with Coinbase support and, you know, some of the information they were tracking on users. So,
906
01:24:28.715 --> 01:24:29.375
you know,
907
01:24:29.995 --> 01:24:49.880
you know, have, you know, use VPNs and other stuff and, you know, have, like, a fresh browser instance. You know, like, I have I have, you know, a Chrome for just for like, I don't even use it. But I use it just for pay with me. So it has, like, literally no other information on it. And it's just it's just I just have that extension just for pay with me. But like a dedicated browser.
908
01:24:50.260 --> 01:24:51.320
Exactly. Yeah.
909
01:24:51.780 --> 01:25:00.625
It's like the only way to privately use an app. Yeah. At least semi privately. When you could probably I could figure out how to reverse engineer their APIs and, like, use it anyways, but,
910
01:25:01.065 --> 01:25:02.205
haven't gotten there yet.
911
01:25:02.905 --> 01:25:07.190
912
01:25:07.570 --> 01:25:08.870
with an anonymous account.
913
01:25:09.570 --> 01:25:10.070
914
01:25:11.410 --> 01:25:11.910
915
01:25:13.034 --> 01:25:16.894
916
01:25:19.114 --> 01:25:26.150
Tony, I mean, a lot of a lot of people seem pretty excited about Impervious Browser. Should they be excited about Impervious? I'm excited about it.
917
01:25:26.530 --> 01:25:28.790
918
01:25:30.425 --> 01:25:38.770
around the yeah. We're planning on Bitcoin 22. I mean, Bitcoin 22 by itself is, like, something to be excited about. But, yeah, planning on launching our browser,
919
01:25:39.150 --> 01:25:40.930
around that time. So it's been
920
01:25:41.710 --> 01:25:51.235
a it's been a lot of hard work. You and everyone else is trying to launch things for the comp. I know. Like, I'm I I probably shouldn't be, like, spending so much time sitting on a podcast. I should be coding. But,
921
01:25:52.770 --> 01:25:55.730
but, yeah, there's there's there's just been a lot of,
922
01:25:56.330 --> 01:26:01.730
a lot of crazy ideas that we've had over the last, like, you know, since since I joined last year. And,
923
01:26:02.575 --> 01:26:08.915
you know, I'm really, really looking forward to kind of just seeing, like, the vision of the whole, like, decentralized peer to peer web, like, take place
924
01:26:09.295 --> 01:26:14.219
just to just to see if it you know, if we can actually bring this to for, for for for
925
01:26:15.900 --> 01:26:18.560
bring it to bring it to to the market and see.
926
01:26:19.900 --> 01:26:24.505
Don't worry. I don't know. Fruition. I'm fruition. There you go. Thank you. I'm a few drinks in. But,
927
01:26:25.205 --> 01:26:29.780
just trying to see if, you know, we can we can bring, like, this whole, like, peer to peer and then, you know,
928
01:26:30.579 --> 01:26:33.880
you know, use the whole Bitcoin Lightning Network as part of it.
929
01:26:35.139 --> 01:26:36.039
930
01:26:36.500 --> 01:26:38.679
Google Docs the Google Docs work?
931
01:26:39.114 --> 01:26:46.014
932
01:26:46.829 --> 01:26:54.369
Right. I mean, a lot of that is, like, instead of just going PayPal without PayPal. Right. Like, instead of using these these third parties, like, you're you're communicating,
933
01:26:54.835 --> 01:27:04.530
like, especially, like, on the Google Docs part, like, you know, you know, being able to collaborate on documents, like, having that without Google servers. Like, you, you know, you can do peer to peer
934
01:27:05.010 --> 01:27:22.755
collaborative editing. Like, you know, so that way, like, our docs like, we had this problem, like, a few few months ago. We were, like, trying to, like, come up with, like, ideas about how to, like, you know, to do this one privacy project we wanted to do. And we're like, how do we collaborate on this document? Like, what's the most privacy Yeah. Privacy way privacy preserving way to do it? And,
935
01:27:23.460 --> 01:27:27.719
you know, we gave up and use GitHub. We just use GitHub anyways. You know, but,
936
01:27:28.579 --> 01:27:46.580
you know, things along those lines. So, like, it's not just, you know, Google Docs or your Zoom that that we wanna enable. Like, the whole idea that we're instead of going to, you know, centralized third parties for not only our identity, but also all the services we use. Like, we can do a lot of that in a peer to peer way.
937
01:27:47.440 --> 01:27:54.625
938
01:27:56.650 --> 01:28:06.545
939
01:28:07.245 --> 01:28:13.344
I don't think, I don't think we've announced, what, like, a license or that we'll be using yet, but,
940
01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:28.295
yeah, it definitely will be open source. I mean, no one's gonna run a browser unless it's open source. Right? Like, that would be that would be idiotic. So As in source views viewable. At at at, you know, at the very least. Right? Like, at the very least, it at least needs to be that. But, you know, I'm I'm,
941
01:28:28.835 --> 01:28:31.739
942
01:28:32.679 --> 01:28:42.204
do you think we should be calling things open source if they're source viewable, or is should that distinction be made as open source is a non restricted license and source viewable is a restricted
943
01:28:42.905 --> 01:28:48.030
944
01:28:48.969 --> 01:28:52.010
945
01:28:53.055 --> 01:29:02.095
946
01:29:02.680 --> 01:29:29.215
I don't know. I think licenses need to go. I think like information wants to be free. Like, if the code is out there, even if it doesn't like if if something doesn't have a license at all, it's like the most restrictive ever. Like, I don't even think you can look at it. Like, it's just like, it's just it's just default. So like, no one can use this like, and if someone doesn't have a license and someone else, like, collaborates and merges some code into it, then it's like you can't even use it because you just added someone's code that doesn't have a license. And it's just the worst thing that there possibly could be.
947
01:29:29.675 --> 01:29:35.035
But so I think we just say, you know, fuck it to licenses. Like, if code is out there, like, just fucking run it.
948
01:29:35.755 --> 01:29:41.460
But, that's just my my own opinion there. Does that mean impervious is Look at source? Look at that matrix notification.
949
01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:44.275
950
01:29:46.995 --> 01:29:47.815
951
01:29:51.715 --> 01:29:55.639
I mean, we probably have spooks in this room right now. I'm I wanna have,
952
01:29:56.440 --> 01:30:02.675
953
01:30:03.135 --> 01:30:03.635
have
954
01:30:04.975 --> 01:30:07.235
a I wanna have a license debate on stage.
955
01:30:07.540 --> 01:30:13.800
Yeah. So all the hardware wallets get on stage. Like, a thousand people in the audience, and just everyone just argues over
956
01:30:14.875 --> 01:30:16.415
over software licenses.
957
01:30:16.715 --> 01:30:21.215
It's like a boxing match afterwards or something. Or we can put them in a ring or a cage or something.
958
01:30:22.780 --> 01:30:23.740
959
01:30:24.140 --> 01:30:25.520
Yeah. That that whole
960
01:30:26.060 --> 01:30:36.114
I don't know if we wanna get into that at all, but the whole thing with cold card and Let's get into it. Session. Alright. Like Since you guys aren't really excited about anything coming up this year.
961
01:30:36.790 --> 01:30:39.770
Pretty excited about about about a lot of things, but,
962
01:30:40.150 --> 01:30:48.125
I don't know. Like, I I don't know. I I think it was, like, Citadel dispatch episode, like, 2 or something with, with with Paul Miller talking about
963
01:30:48.425 --> 01:30:48.865
licenses.
964
01:30:49.305 --> 01:30:51.465
Paul. Yeah. No. That was that was a good one.
965
01:30:52.265 --> 01:30:54.490
But I don't know. I think I think the
966
01:30:55.050 --> 01:31:03.470
there's no easy way to go about it. I mean, even when you look into the The node 1 was a really good license to be. Yes. Love that even though, you know, the one of the most contentious
967
01:31:03.954 --> 01:31:04.775
node licenses
968
01:31:05.155 --> 01:31:06.934
didn't didn't join that conversation.
969
01:31:07.954 --> 01:31:11.014
970
01:31:11.360 --> 01:31:18.260
971
01:31:18.639 --> 01:31:20.415
l 3 or GPLv3.
972
01:31:20.875 --> 01:31:22.094
Sorry. I can't even say it right.
973
01:31:22.554 --> 01:31:38.230
The more I look into that, the more I'm the more I'm just like, you know, you you you I like gplv3. 3. Right. But even you as the author yourself, like, you you, like, restrict what even you do. Talk about let's talk about Right. So what GPL v 3 is. So you have
974
01:31:38.915 --> 01:31:43.335
975
01:31:44.114 --> 01:31:45.895
which is what Bitcoin Core uses,
976
01:31:46.620 --> 01:31:48.320
which is what BlueWallet uses.
977
01:31:48.860 --> 01:31:50.400
Bunch of projects use it.
978
01:31:51.020 --> 01:31:54.320
That means you can do anything you fucking want with the code.
979
01:31:55.020 --> 01:31:55.520
Right?
980
01:31:56.245 --> 01:31:57.945
Then you have GPLv3,
981
01:31:59.525 --> 01:32:07.570
which says that any derivative works. You can do anything with the code, but any derivative works you do with it need to also be GPLv3.
982
01:32:07.949 --> 01:32:08.849
They have to maintain
983
01:32:09.869 --> 01:32:11.969
the the license of the code they borrowed.
984
01:32:12.325 --> 01:32:21.625
And then you have, like, a whole smattering of restrictive licenses that dictate all these different things. You can't use it commercially. You can't modify it at all. Bunch of different variations
985
01:32:22.070 --> 01:32:28.730
from that point on. Now you want me to give you so the the argument you're you just made the argument against GPLv3.
986
01:32:29.784 --> 01:32:32.764
Well You wanna make the argue make the argument against GPLv3,
987
01:32:33.224 --> 01:32:40.130
988
01:32:40.830 --> 01:32:47.550
One of the things that did end up happening is, like, you know, MVK wanted to change his license away from from GPO, and,
989
01:32:49.485 --> 01:32:58.270
he so, you know, if there was a contributor on a certain file, he actually, like, needs to get permission from all the authors to be able to do that. So,
990
01:32:58.730 --> 01:33:02.430
991
01:33:03.130 --> 01:33:04.750
not the not the historical
992
01:33:05.050 --> 01:33:14.025
993
01:33:14.325 --> 01:33:14.825
without
994
01:33:15.260 --> 01:33:18.000
the authors all the authors that contributed
995
01:33:19.420 --> 01:33:24.960
from from what I read. Like, so like, because he just took he just took GPL code,
996
01:33:25.295 --> 01:33:25.795
and
997
01:33:26.095 --> 01:33:27.955
he licensed it under a different license.
998
01:33:29.055 --> 01:33:30.755
999
01:33:31.455 --> 01:33:38.510
1000
01:33:39.610 --> 01:33:47.985
You know, if you think That kinda makes sense to me. Right. So he took GPL v 3 because the whole point of GPL v 3 is that He took GPL v 3 code.
1001
01:33:48.285 --> 01:33:49.650
I will not say that right.
1002
01:33:49.969 --> 01:33:53.330
And which was, you know, quote, unquote, his. Called GPL going forward.
1003
01:33:54.050 --> 01:34:02.574
Quote, unquote, his. And then he turned around and took that code and and and, you know, had a more And the whole reason this happened was because another project
1004
01:34:02.875 --> 01:34:03.534
1005
01:34:04.955 --> 01:34:05.455
after
1006
01:34:06.155 --> 01:34:06.655
after
1007
01:34:07.034 --> 01:34:08.255
NVK and his partner,
1008
01:34:08.570 --> 01:34:14.830
Peter, spent all these years building out this hardware wallet, best in class hardware wallet, everyone loved it,
1009
01:34:18.545 --> 01:34:24.725
Another company came out and just took the exact same code base. They were like, we're just gonna make different hardware,
1010
01:34:25.080 --> 01:34:29.260
but we're gonna use the same code base, and then raised a bunch of VC money
1011
01:34:29.960 --> 01:34:33.180
off of that pre product without even releasing anything.
1012
01:34:34.105 --> 01:34:37.804
I mean, now they've released something, but they at that point, they didn't.
1013
01:34:38.665 --> 01:34:39.885
And that was a,
1014
01:34:44.010 --> 01:34:46.190
panic's the wrong word, but that was a
1015
01:34:47.369 --> 01:34:47.869
1016
01:34:48.170 --> 01:34:50.830
1017
01:34:51.205 --> 01:34:56.585
I would say it was a bad reaction. I've been pretty consistent about that. Even when MBK is on the show, MBK is a friend.
1018
01:34:58.900 --> 01:35:10.585
Like, I think he should've just taken the high road. We have the better wallet, just kept his license as is. That's a whole different argument than whether or not he's allowed to change his license. Right. Okay. So you wanna hear my argument Yeah. For
1019
01:35:10.965 --> 01:35:17.305
GPL v 3 over MIT? Yeah. Because this is something that people so I had SeedSigner on the show,
1020
01:35:18.070 --> 01:35:20.570
when SeedSigner was a very little project, and now,
1021
01:35:21.350 --> 01:35:25.610
they've grown into quite a big community, which is awesome to see. I fucking love SeedSigner.
1022
01:35:26.675 --> 01:35:29.415
I love what they're doing over there in terms of building, like,
1023
01:35:30.035 --> 01:35:32.615
a open source hardware wallet with off the shelf parts.
1024
01:35:33.640 --> 01:35:39.500
He had to figure out what license he was gonna use, and he had a bunch of people screaming in his ear, and he chose MIT.
1025
01:35:40.280 --> 01:35:42.450
And he was on air right before he chose the license,
1026
01:35:44.275 --> 01:35:47.015
with me on dispatch, and I told him to do GPLv3.
1027
01:35:48.195 --> 01:35:49.574
And the reason is
1028
01:35:50.275 --> 01:35:52.695
is because if you do the MIT license,
1029
01:35:54.969 --> 01:35:59.630
like, Apple can come in and just make they could take everything from seed signer,
1030
01:36:00.010 --> 01:36:01.790
add a few cherries on top,
1031
01:36:02.275 --> 01:36:03.895
make it all closed source,
1032
01:36:05.395 --> 01:36:09.415
literally the exact opposite of contributing everything back, just not even open the code,
1033
01:36:10.219 --> 01:36:13.040
And they could be like, this is the Apple Bitcoin wallet.
1034
01:36:13.500 --> 01:36:16.960
And they can just take all of that and not make it open source. But if it's GPLv3,
1035
01:36:18.324 --> 01:36:21.304
then if they take that code, they're legally required
1036
01:36:21.844 --> 01:36:22.824
to keep
1037
01:36:23.685 --> 01:36:24.985
their derivative work
1038
01:36:25.605 --> 01:36:26.105
as
1039
01:36:26.490 --> 01:36:26.990
GPLv3.
1040
01:36:27.690 --> 01:36:29.950
So I see a situation
1041
01:36:30.330 --> 01:36:30.830
where
1042
01:36:31.370 --> 01:36:36.030
a lot of our Bitcoin, our favorite Bitcoin open source projects, are gonna basically get
1043
01:36:39.295 --> 01:36:45.795
they're gonna get picked off 1 by 1 and combined into larger tech projects run by, like, all these, you know,
1044
01:36:46.400 --> 01:36:47.620
massive tech companies.
1045
01:36:48.240 --> 01:36:57.255
And I have I'm not gonna name names, but, like, I've seen some oh, gee. I we have Paul and the our good friend Paul in the comments
1046
01:36:57.635 --> 01:36:59.255
telling me I'm wrong and dumb.
1047
01:36:59.635 --> 01:37:01.414
We've had this argument many times.
1048
01:37:02.890 --> 01:37:03.630
There are
1049
01:37:04.730 --> 01:37:06.110
some there are some,
1050
01:37:06.890 --> 01:37:13.025
providers of open source grants that will not give open source grants to GPLv3. They ask for you to change it to MIT.
1051
01:37:14.284 --> 01:37:14.605
Mhmm.
1052
01:37:15.324 --> 01:37:16.625
Because I'm pretty sure
1053
01:37:18.180 --> 01:37:19.400
if if it's GPL,
1054
01:37:19.780 --> 01:37:22.440
you can go to MIT, but you can't go
1055
01:37:22.980 --> 01:37:25.800
from GPL to more closed. You can go to more open.
1056
01:37:26.565 --> 01:37:28.264
And they've asked projects
1057
01:37:28.565 --> 01:37:29.705
to go to MIT
1058
01:37:30.085 --> 01:37:34.505
Mhmm. To receive the grant funding. And why would they do that unless they wanted to
1059
01:37:35.640 --> 01:37:38.940
have, you know, just go to town with that code?
1060
01:37:39.320 --> 01:37:45.020
1061
01:37:45.785 --> 01:37:51.485
so, like, at the Bitcoin company, like, we're we're using Bitcoin s in the back end, which is a Scala library in Bitcoin.
1062
01:37:51.865 --> 01:38:25.385
And that's, has an MIT license. So those GPL 3, we'd have to open source our back end code, which obviously don't wanna do. So, like, you know, but because that we use Bitcoin s in the back end, I go back and contribute to the projects all the time to add things I need. So, like, you know, there are incentives there where, like, you know, if this is, like, GPL 3, now you literally can't use this in our closed source back end and stuff like that. Right. I think it goes back to, like, what's your what's your motive behind whatever project it is that you're trying to or even just your philosophy of life. Right? Like, here we are. BTC pay servers, MIT.
1063
01:38:26.005 --> 01:38:26.505
1064
01:38:27.045 --> 01:38:29.365
1065
01:38:30.460 --> 01:38:38.985
going back to, like, Benson Aero, that means, like, Tesla could use it in their back end. And, like, Tesla was actually trying to plan on, like they were doing audits on it, and then they eventually But they could still use
1066
01:38:40.905 --> 01:38:57.574
it if it was GPLv3. They would just have to They would have to open source their whole, like, purchasing system that they use it. Well, if they if they use BTCPay for for the the portions of the open source code they use would have to be open source. Okay. Well, they would probably just end up using something like, you know, Stripe in the end. Right? But there's but what happens if
1067
01:38:58.195 --> 01:39:01.094
1068
01:39:01.715 --> 01:39:08.360
with just a closed source version of BTC pay server with a few cherries on top Right. And then dominates the market,
1069
01:39:09.300 --> 01:39:22.120
and it does more payment processing than BTC pay does. I I think I think it goes back to, like, people And doesn't actually fund the developers. They don't actually even go and fund the developers that are building BTC pay server. They're just a leech on that system.
1070
01:39:23.699 --> 01:39:44.190
1071
01:39:44.810 --> 01:40:28.125
end of story. So, like, this whole, like, license debate. Like, I like to theorize about some things, but, like, the fact that, like, NVK, like, can't just switch GPL. You know? Well, he did, but, you know, there's some legality. But that's all bullshit anyway. Right. Like, I think I think it's all bullshit. I think information's out there, and I don't like, if you're trying to, like, be restrictive on code, then I think I think it's bullshit. And like to be fair, like, sure, I run it. I work at a company and will probably have a license on it, whatever. But like, I think my own philosophy in life is just like if code is out there codes out there like, yeah. You're just saying all this and the purpose is about to release a source of people to buy it. Well, I don't know what The highly restricted license. You know, we don't know what their license is gonna be yet. It's not it's not out there, but so don't say it's gonna be a highly restrictive license. But,
1072
01:40:29.324 --> 01:40:31.505
1073
01:40:31.885 --> 01:40:32.385
1074
01:40:32.844 --> 01:40:34.449
you know, I don't
1075
01:40:34.750 --> 01:41:20.645
know. I don't I don't have a I don't have a you know, if I'm doing something on my own self, like, I, you know, I hope to license is just like, hey. I don't know. I would love to submit code and be like, you know, there's no license. If you want if you wanna use this code, like, you know, don't worry about the law. Like like, be on that. Stuff like that. Right? Well, I mean, MIT kinda fits that bill, but also, like, unlicensed. Right? Or I'm you're literally, like, you're writing paragraphs of legal code when or sorry, legal legal paragraph. Like, copy and paste the MIT license. Right. But you're you're It's control c, control v or whatever. I know. But, like, you're you're stating something, and I think, like, the whole idea of information should be free. Like, that's it's it's free. It's out there. Like, source viewable or not. Like, the information is free. Go go fucking use it. Who cares what the government thinks? To be fair, like, if you had, like, say, like, something like cold card, it's, like, source viewable.
1076
01:41:21.105 --> 01:41:24.565
1077
01:41:25.105 --> 01:41:38.295
they're probably never gonna know. No one know. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it'd have to like, either get leaked online or, like, some lawyers starts looking through the code and throws a hissy fit. But, like, reality, that that doesn't happen. Like, even, like I think it was on Twitter last week.
1078
01:41:38.675 --> 01:41:39.895
Rodolfo was like,
1079
01:41:40.675 --> 01:41:42.535
saying Foundation stole some of their
1080
01:41:43.075 --> 01:41:44.855
their non open source code. And
1081
01:41:45.160 --> 01:41:49.820
I was like, well, okay. And what are you gonna do? Like, get lawyers involved? Like, this is gonna be more of a headache than it's worth.
1082
01:41:50.200 --> 01:42:00.295
1083
01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:02.360
1084
01:42:03.480 --> 01:42:07.500
there's actually precedent in the Bitcoin hardware wallet space because Eric Voorhees
1085
01:42:08.505 --> 01:42:10.925
took treasure code and made the keep key.
1086
01:42:11.625 --> 01:42:12.525
Mhmm. And I
1087
01:42:12.825 --> 01:42:15.325
and the treasure guys never closed their code
1088
01:42:15.920 --> 01:42:22.900
over it. And, but I think they thought about it. There was, like, a whole back and forth about it. And, like, you hear it a lot. Like, exodus,
1089
01:42:24.735 --> 01:42:26.195
isn't even source viewable.
1090
01:42:27.615 --> 01:42:28.995
A lot of people use Exodus,
1091
01:42:29.615 --> 01:42:31.875
and their argument on their website
1092
01:42:32.910 --> 01:42:34.290
in the FAQ section
1093
01:42:35.550 --> 01:42:37.490
is, if we make it source viewable,
1094
01:42:38.350 --> 01:42:39.410
there'll be copycats
1095
01:42:40.375 --> 01:42:43.034
that trick our users and steal their funds or whatever.
1096
01:42:45.494 --> 01:43:07.895
1097
01:43:08.760 --> 01:43:28.770
1098
01:43:29.150 --> 01:43:30.370
it's all a bunch of bullshit.
1099
01:43:30.910 --> 01:43:37.395
I'm gonna fork impervious and call it pervious browser. Do what you want, man. I I I personally will not sue you. I'll tell
1100
01:43:37.975 --> 01:43:38.475
you
1101
01:43:39.055 --> 01:43:39.555
that.
1102
01:43:40.495 --> 01:43:41.315
But yeah.
1103
01:43:43.215 --> 01:43:48.980
1104
01:43:50.960 --> 01:43:53.680
1105
01:43:54.320 --> 01:44:03.605
1106
01:44:05.670 --> 01:44:09.290
But I'm torn on whether or not something like BTC pay server should be MIT.
1107
01:44:10.230 --> 01:44:20.135
1108
01:44:20.730 --> 01:44:23.150
1109
01:44:23.770 --> 01:44:26.670
1110
01:44:27.290 --> 01:44:28.735
on a lot of things. But,
1111
01:44:29.295 --> 01:44:31.955
1112
01:44:32.975 --> 01:44:45.370
1113
01:44:45.735 --> 01:44:46.235
It's
1114
01:44:46.614 --> 01:44:48.875
a lot of inspiration from, like, you know, SQL,
1115
01:44:50.135 --> 01:44:58.210
you know, principles a while back. Feel like there's a lot of legal holes in your fucking go good. Like, it's like sort of a sort of a middle ground between,
1116
01:44:58.690 --> 01:45:02.855
you know, I'm not gonna, like, legally, like, say something. Right? But I'm just like, hey. You know?
1117
01:45:03.175 --> 01:45:06.875
Use this if you want. It's probably it probably doesn't work anyways, so who cares?
1118
01:45:09.335 --> 01:45:14.940
1119
01:45:19.400 --> 01:45:19.900
Yeah.
1120
01:45:20.520 --> 01:45:21.420
I don't know.
1121
01:45:25.545 --> 01:45:26.505
Vivek Vivek thinks your,
1122
01:45:27.945 --> 01:45:31.300
your life is poetic as fuck. Thank you. Bye bye.
1123
01:45:33.119 --> 01:45:35.380
So do you guys have anything else you wanna talk about?
1124
01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:37.940
What are you thinking?
1125
01:45:38.805 --> 01:45:40.745
We're at the hour and 45 minute mark.
1126
01:45:42.005 --> 01:45:43.385
Our comments are just
1127
01:45:44.405 --> 01:45:46.265
Vivek now and Paul.
1128
01:45:49.989 --> 01:45:56.809
Well Uh-huh. I don't know. Vivek is hopefully giving us some feedback on what we should talk about next.
1129
01:45:59.555 --> 01:46:01.095
1130
01:46:04.355 --> 01:46:06.295
1131
01:46:07.350 --> 01:46:08.409
I think our
1132
01:46:09.830 --> 01:46:11.210
it is it is extremely
1133
01:46:13.350 --> 01:46:14.969
it is extremely awesome
1134
01:46:15.445 --> 01:46:20.745
that, we're seeing so many new open source projects, like, in the Bitcoin tangential space.
1135
01:46:22.570 --> 01:46:23.630
You know, I just spent,
1136
01:46:24.970 --> 01:46:31.550
like, the last 2 months trying to come up with like, set up this program for Bitcoin 2022
1137
01:46:31.930 --> 01:46:32.430
for
1138
01:46:34.475 --> 01:46:37.375
giving tickets to open source contributors. And, obviously,
1139
01:46:39.115 --> 01:46:44.060
we've been working on open sets to fund open source contributors for the last year.
1140
01:46:45.400 --> 01:46:51.974
So I've, like, been very focused on, like, watching all these projects develop, and it's pretty fucking remarkable. It's it's,
1141
01:46:53.795 --> 01:46:56.855
I feel like that's really what gives Bitcoin its robustness,
1142
01:46:57.310 --> 01:47:00.370
right, is that you have all these open source contributors around the world,
1143
01:47:01.230 --> 01:47:05.010
and that even even that you can, like, have a list of 32 projects
1144
01:47:06.110 --> 01:47:06.610
that
1145
01:47:06.985 --> 01:47:08.205
that aren't garbage,
1146
01:47:08.745 --> 01:47:15.085
that are the exact opposite of garbage, right, that are promising, that are building, that are making progress every day
1147
01:47:16.020 --> 01:47:35.165
is, like, fucking remarkable. Like, that is crazy, all related to Bitcoin. And I think one of the bigger two things, it's not just, like, 1 guy building a lot of these. They're, like, the team of, like, 8 people that build this, like, product. Yeah. Or even even more. Like, you have, like you'll you'll have, like, random projects with, like, 45 contributors, and they have no idea who each other is,
1148
01:47:36.570 --> 01:47:38.270
and they're not getting paid for it.
1149
01:47:39.610 --> 01:47:41.070
That is fucking powerful.
1150
01:47:43.344 --> 01:47:47.125
Vivek wants me to ask you about Vortex. What is Vortex? Oh, god.
1151
01:47:47.905 --> 01:47:52.165
1152
01:47:53.380 --> 01:47:55.960
1153
01:47:56.420 --> 01:48:01.000
1154
01:48:01.655 --> 01:48:02.155
And,
1155
01:48:03.014 --> 01:48:06.554
I don't know, I built it from the ground up, and it it's, it links into
1156
01:48:07.415 --> 01:48:09.195
c lightning and lnd.
1157
01:48:09.735 --> 01:48:13.060
So the idea is, like, you know, in a perfect world, you can
1158
01:48:13.860 --> 01:48:20.665
you want every spend as a coin join. And today, there's no open channels in the coin join. So this was like my attempt at doing that.
1159
01:48:21.125 --> 01:48:23.945
I've I've done it on reg test, so it works. But
1160
01:48:24.460 --> 01:48:27.760
I, like, hacked it together and it needs a lot of work still where,
1161
01:48:28.540 --> 01:48:31.120
so, like, the the way it works now is you just, like,
1162
01:48:31.675 --> 01:48:35.615
you just, like, immediately open in a coin join. So there's no, like, remixing or anything.
1163
01:48:35.995 --> 01:48:43.969
So you could very easily dox yourself by, like, opening a channel in a coin join and with your change output. It's like opening another channel and just, you know, you're
1164
01:48:44.270 --> 01:48:47.489
linking yourself to what she did like, what's change output was yours
1165
01:48:47.949 --> 01:48:57.635
and stuff like that. So the I, I need to work on it more where it it lets you, like, kinda like what samurai does today where you can just enter in the remixing pool, remix a 1000 times,
1166
01:48:58.000 --> 01:49:05.380
and then open a coin join from there. So your your change is much more, far links from your Open a channel from there. Yeah. Yeah.
1167
01:49:05.765 --> 01:49:09.625
So then your change is much more like far links from your actual channel. And,
1168
01:49:10.485 --> 01:49:11.385
that's the idea.
1169
01:49:11.925 --> 01:49:12.425
It's,
1170
01:49:13.050 --> 01:49:23.235
if anyone wants to finish it, that'd be great because I have no time anymore. What is the license? It's MIT. There you go. I do MIT on everything. I have a question for you guys. Is GPL v 3 an open source license?
1171
01:49:24.175 --> 01:49:30.750
1172
01:49:31.130 --> 01:49:33.630
1173
01:49:35.450 --> 01:49:38.110
There are there are restrictions on what you can do. So,
1174
01:49:40.005 --> 01:49:46.905
1175
01:49:48.870 --> 01:49:52.730
1176
01:49:54.070 --> 01:49:58.244
1177
01:50:00.065 --> 01:50:03.605
1178
01:50:05.780 --> 01:50:33.684
1179
01:50:34.724 --> 01:50:43.770
1180
01:50:45.145 --> 01:50:47.885
like coin control, which is really hard. But yeah.
1181
01:50:48.824 --> 01:51:13.920
1182
01:51:14.220 --> 01:51:22.555
1183
01:51:23.015 --> 01:51:27.115
And so ideally, like if we have these nodes that are always on, they should just be coin joining always.
1184
01:51:27.655 --> 01:51:32.480
And then when you want to open a channel, you just open a channel and the coin join as well. So like that's the end goal. But,
1185
01:51:33.440 --> 01:51:36.260
you know, I'd have to work on it more. I need to find time. But yeah.
1186
01:51:36.685 --> 01:51:45.905
So you were you gonna publish it to the Umbrel app store? Yeah. That was the that was the goal for, like, on Umbrel and start 9 and, RAS Pipelits. And then also, like, a daemon that you can run locally
1187
01:51:46.460 --> 01:51:48.320
if you don't use any of those. But
1188
01:51:49.659 --> 01:51:58.204
yeah. If anyone well, there's not many Scala devs in Bitcoin. No. I don't work on it. Scala? Come on. You can't work with us on me. Chris, are you out there? Yeah.
1189
01:51:58.665 --> 01:52:00.125
1190
01:52:03.970 --> 01:52:04.870
1191
01:52:05.810 --> 01:52:07.670
Umbrel has a very restrictive license.
1192
01:52:07.970 --> 01:52:08.470
1193
01:52:09.490 --> 01:52:18.035
1194
01:52:18.495 --> 01:52:22.159
1195
01:52:22.460 --> 01:52:33.545
1196
01:52:34.005 --> 01:52:42.280
1197
01:52:42.580 --> 01:52:47.160
1198
01:52:47.645 --> 01:52:58.020
1199
01:53:00.159 --> 01:53:01.520
1200
01:53:02.000 --> 01:53:03.699
Ortex sounds freaking awesome.
1201
01:53:06.125 --> 01:53:08.705
We have someone mentioning Fulcrum. Did you see Fulcrum?
1202
01:53:10.844 --> 01:53:18.370
That's something that's cool. So that so Craig of Sparrow has been doing all these performance tests, and Fulcrum is a different Electrum server.
1203
01:53:18.830 --> 01:53:23.570
It blows Electromax and Electris out of the water in terms of performance, especially on
1204
01:53:24.595 --> 01:53:28.215
single board computers like ResPods or RockPros or something.
1205
01:53:32.710 --> 01:53:34.650
The project is funded by BCash,
1206
01:53:34.950 --> 01:53:44.205
1207
01:53:45.065 --> 01:53:46.845
1208
01:53:49.390 --> 01:53:53.489
And I don't know what the definition of free and open source is. No. I think
1209
01:53:54.110 --> 01:53:56.050
I've hopefully, it's MIT license,
1210
01:53:57.395 --> 01:54:15.344
1211
01:54:16.205 --> 01:54:21.244
1212
01:54:21.965 --> 01:54:27.630
8 x and, like, the worst. Oh. There was initial load. Fulcrum is 22 times faster than Electromax,
1213
01:54:28.010 --> 01:54:34.465
300 times faster than Electris. Most most of these, like, full node implementation boxes or whatever using Electris.
1214
01:54:34.925 --> 01:54:42.540
300 times faster than Electris on initial load. Wallet refresh, 8 times faster than Electromax, 1 and a half times faster than Electris.
1215
01:54:43.400 --> 01:54:47.420
That's pretty impressive. It's GPL license according to Paul. There you go.
1216
01:54:48.055 --> 01:54:52.635
Throw it in the trash. So it may or may not be open source depending on your definition.
1217
01:54:54.135 --> 01:54:55.035
1218
01:54:55.400 --> 01:55:01.420
that's pretty legit. And I think it said only, like, a 100 gigabytes of storage needed, so, like, that's not that's not too far fetched.
1219
01:55:01.960 --> 01:55:04.300
There are some implementations that are, like, 800
1220
01:55:04.925 --> 01:55:06.145
to almost, like, a terabyte.
1221
01:55:06.525 --> 01:55:07.665
1222
01:55:08.125 --> 01:55:08.765
1223
01:55:09.965 --> 01:55:13.505
elect yeah. One of them that's, like, meant for, like, more
1224
01:55:14.480 --> 01:55:17.220
more business use cases. It's, like, 800, but,
1225
01:55:18.640 --> 01:55:21.300
seems pretty impressive. I I haven't used too much of those
1226
01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:22.820
myself, but
1227
01:55:23.765 --> 01:55:26.505
1228
01:55:28.885 --> 01:55:30.825
I feel like a lot of the pain points,
1229
01:55:32.640 --> 01:55:38.900
that we're gonna hit in Bitcoin that we like, the one of the beauties of, like, an open system like Bitcoin is, like, I feel like as you hit pain points,
1230
01:55:40.495 --> 01:55:47.554
the underlying system becomes more robust because you fix based on those pain points, but you need to hit the pain points first.
1231
01:55:48.480 --> 01:55:52.740
And, obviously, in Bitcoin land, there's been a very much of a
1232
01:55:55.575 --> 01:55:57.675
buy and hold mentality rather than
1233
01:55:58.055 --> 01:55:59.995
spend it or earn it.
1234
01:56:00.695 --> 01:56:05.080
And on top of that, of those who do spend and earn, a lot of them use centralized services. Right?
1235
01:56:05.560 --> 01:56:09.900
So the whole reason Craig is even exploring this is because in Sparrow, he added Whirlpool.
1236
01:56:10.440 --> 01:56:11.660
And when you add Whirlpool,
1237
01:56:12.285 --> 01:56:16.385
all of a sudden, your wallet gets very heavy. You use a lot of UTXOs.
1238
01:56:16.845 --> 01:56:19.105
Right? And you go really deep into those addresses,
1239
01:56:19.725 --> 01:56:21.665
and the Electrum servers were buckling.
1240
01:56:22.750 --> 01:56:25.570
But, like, people weren't using their own Electrum servers
1241
01:56:26.030 --> 01:56:27.489
with heavy wallet use
1242
01:56:28.030 --> 01:56:29.090
until they integrated.
1243
01:56:29.655 --> 01:56:35.275
Right? It wasn't it wasn't a pain point that was immediately obvious until people started, you know, actually
1244
01:56:35.655 --> 01:56:37.835
using Bitcoin hardcore in that respect.
1245
01:56:38.690 --> 01:56:45.430
And now he needs to go and he basically got a bunch of support requests that people's electrum servers are, like, stalling when they were trying to go
1246
01:56:46.275 --> 01:56:47.175
deep in these
1247
01:56:47.555 --> 01:56:49.635
in these address steps. I think too because,
1248
01:56:50.835 --> 01:56:55.255
1249
01:56:55.560 --> 01:57:13.760
I I know the coordinator checks, like, for that. I don't know if the wall actually checks. But if you need to check, like, all your peers' like addresses if they've been used before, that's a ton of extra data too that you need to, like, quickly look up. So, yeah, it's very important. I'm pretty sure the coordinator enforces it Yeah. For what it's worth. But Right. So if everyone's,
1250
01:57:14.300 --> 01:57:24.565
1251
01:57:25.685 --> 01:57:29.039
1252
01:57:29.420 --> 01:57:34.719
with base Electrum, it it was, like, kind of easy to accidentally dox yourself to public Electrum servers.
1253
01:57:35.055 --> 01:57:37.635
But with Sparrow, like, he made it so it's just, like,
1254
01:57:38.655 --> 01:57:44.500
from start up, you can say only connect to my Electrum server, and it just will never fall back. Okay. Good.
1255
01:57:45.040 --> 01:57:48.080
But then their wallet doesn't load. Yeah. Right.
1256
01:57:49.040 --> 01:57:51.700
But at least you don't have the privacy gotcha necessarily.
1257
01:57:52.395 --> 01:57:58.175
Yeah. And I I expect to start to see, like, this kind of situation happen in terms of Bitcoin circular economy
1258
01:57:58.475 --> 01:58:01.935
because of stuff like El Salvador. Like, all of a sudden, you'd put 6,000,000 people
1259
01:58:02.610 --> 01:58:04.389
with a proper circular economy,
1260
01:58:06.449 --> 01:58:09.110
that instead of government restricted, it's government mandated.
1261
01:58:10.035 --> 01:58:21.520
And all of a sudden, you start to see real world examples of pain points and enlightening and spending Bitcoin and receiving Bitcoin and stuff that can be resolved, but they need to be exposed first. Right?
1262
01:58:23.100 --> 01:58:50.705
1263
01:58:51.300 --> 01:58:51.800
So,
1264
01:58:52.340 --> 01:58:54.440
you know, it's trade offs they have to make.
1265
01:58:55.700 --> 01:58:57.240
1266
01:58:58.475 --> 01:59:10.869
Yeah. And then and then and then if it's down, it's like, okay. Well, now my wallet doesn't work. Like, I gotta go Yeah. I mean, he's using Ben's using his own node for the op return bot, and fucking it went down, and now the service doesn't work.
1267
01:59:11.889 --> 01:59:18.635
1268
01:59:20.135 --> 01:59:21.275
1269
01:59:21.895 --> 01:59:23.275
1270
01:59:24.295 --> 01:59:25.034
1271
01:59:27.910 --> 01:59:30.010
1272
01:59:30.950 --> 01:59:32.570
We're hitting the 2 hour point.
1273
01:59:34.875 --> 01:59:38.015
I like to wrap it up around here. Before we wrap it up,
1274
01:59:39.035 --> 01:59:41.935
first of all, thank you guys for joining me with this for this conversation.
1275
01:59:42.890 --> 01:59:59.594
You're obviously both better men than Justin Moon. Yeah. Who's He could still come up and talk if he's literally sitting. You wanna say hi? Don't say hi. Work, and then you just sit there sat there the whole time. Wave heckling. He's waving he's waving at us, so you're you're both better men than him. So thank you for joining us.
1276
02:00:00.340 --> 02:00:03.079
Let's wrap up with some final thoughts. Final thoughts, Ben.
1277
02:00:05.780 --> 02:00:06.280
1278
02:00:06.820 --> 02:00:09.735
isn't the worst thing. We need to focus on real privacy,
1279
02:00:10.195 --> 02:00:13.015
like KYC stuff and, coin joining,
1280
02:00:13.635 --> 02:00:15.095
and the future is bright.
1281
02:00:17.300 --> 02:00:21.320
1282
02:00:21.860 --> 02:00:22.360
Tony.
1283
02:00:22.820 --> 02:00:25.400
1284
02:00:26.565 --> 02:00:28.985
Always great to be talking with Ben too.
1285
02:00:29.445 --> 02:00:36.580
I don't know that the, you know, the the future is bright. Like, you know, take control of your own coins, you know, contribute to the local economy of Bitcoiners.
1286
02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:42.740
You know, get off get off, get off KYC services, and, I don't know. Enjoy life.
1287
02:00:44.275 --> 02:00:45.255