CD162: SETH FOR PRIVACY - PAYJOIN, SILENT PAYMENTS, AND CAKE WALLET

WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 06/02/2025 23:39:16
Duration: 8591.274
Channels: 1

1
00:00:00.399 --> 00:00:01.939
So what's what's Bitcoin,

2
00:00:03.679 --> 00:00:24.735
what is it moving with just risk assets at this point? It got back to an all time high, which which you were forecasting as well. But now I think what are we one zero four this morning? So let's pull back. Yeah. I think it's consolidating. It makes sense. You know, Bitcoin is responding to global liquidity, which is moving up and I think anticipating a dovish Fed next year. So that's a tailwind for Bitcoin.

3
00:00:25.310 --> 00:00:29.490
But, you know, Bitwise has a great stat. You know, 95% of all Bitcoin's been mined,

4
00:00:29.869 --> 00:00:34.850
but 95% of the world doesn't own Bitcoin. So I I just think that there's still a huge

5
00:00:35.390 --> 00:00:35.890
demand

6
00:00:36.350 --> 00:00:44.005
versus supply imbalance, meaning there's a lot more potential buyers of Bitcoin over the next ten years. And so I think there's a lot of upside into year end.

7
00:00:44.465 --> 00:00:50.965
In into your, like, one fifty target? Yeah. One fifty, maybe 200, even two fifty this year. What?

8
00:00:51.345 --> 00:00:59.350
One fifty to to 200 to even two fifty. And what what's your you don't have a terminal price on that, do you? Well, it's,

9
00:01:00.390 --> 00:01:07.875
I think at a minimum, it should have the same network value as gold. And if you look at above ground gold, it's probably 23,000,000,000,000.

10
00:01:07.935 --> 00:01:10.175
So that would be, you know, 1,200,000.0

11
00:01:10.175 --> 00:01:11.715
for Bitcoin. But I think Bitcoin

12
00:01:12.095 --> 00:01:18.435
is more valuable than gold. So, you know, gold I mean, Bitcoin could be 2,000,000, you know, 3,000,000 long term. I mean, even higher.

13
00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:24.640
Okay. Thank you. And and we're talking years, obviously. But 95%

14
00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:26.420
mined. I don't think the last one is

15
00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:29.440
is mined till, what, 2150

16
00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:38.605
or something. Yeah. It's getting harder and harder. Yeah. I mean, depending on how what decimal you wanna use, it's probably, like, you know, twenty, twenty forty or something. But

17
00:01:39.225 --> 00:02:02.700
Yeah. Yeah. But it's yeah. If you're cutting if you're having something forever, it'll always So what's your terminal value? That's what we just No. Yeah. I mean, the final final. He said two and a half million. Two and a half million at the end. Yeah. Or may I mean, more maybe higher. I'm sorry. I'm gonna appreciate that point. Yeah. I mean, it could, you know But I guess what I I'm sorry. The way I meant that is does that happen at the end after it's all When it's all mined. When it's all mined?

18
00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:07.020
Yeah. And there'll be network fees generally. Or does that happen pre before it's mined?

19
00:02:07.465 --> 00:02:08.845
It's like as if

20
00:02:09.785 --> 00:02:13.725
Berkshire did a buyback and there was only one share left. What would Berkshire's

21
00:02:14.585 --> 00:02:17.005
share price be? You know, it'd be

22
00:02:17.545 --> 00:02:21.005
it'd probably be the market value per And as you said

23
00:03:07.035 --> 00:03:13.615
Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive

24
00:03:13.995 --> 00:03:17.880
live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

25
00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:18.780
discussion.

26
00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.300
That intro clip was used just for laughs.

27
00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:25.660
I think that happened today on CNBC.

28
00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.380
I don't know what timeline we live in,

29
00:03:29.320 --> 00:03:31.260
but that was just pure slop.

30
00:03:32.665 --> 00:03:38.364
Even Joe seemed like he was he was tired. He was he was get he was he was he was getting tired.

31
00:03:40.505 --> 00:03:44.845
Guys, we have a great discussion lined up. Before we get started, just real quick,

32
00:03:45.305 --> 00:03:47.165
dispatch as always is

33
00:03:47.900 --> 00:03:48.400
funded

34
00:03:48.940 --> 00:03:50.239
by our audience directly.

35
00:03:50.540 --> 00:03:51.680
No ads or sponsors.

36
00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:55.280
It is supported by viewers

37
00:03:55.660 --> 00:03:58.640
like you supporting the show with Bitcoin donations.

38
00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:03.595
There are three main ways of doing that. You can do it with Nasr after the show ends

39
00:04:03.974 --> 00:04:05.194
by zapping the video.

40
00:04:05.814 --> 00:04:10.295
You can do it in our live chat, which you can find at cildispatch.com/stream,

41
00:04:10.295 --> 00:04:11.674
which has Bitcoin enabled.

42
00:04:12.055 --> 00:04:16.075
Or you can zap on podcasting two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts.

43
00:04:16.900 --> 00:04:20.919
The highest app from last week was from Come Rocket, ride or die freak

44
00:04:21.460 --> 00:04:23.460
with 21,069

45
00:04:23.460 --> 00:04:25.080
sats. He said, thank you, sir.

46
00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:34.285
He also told me separately that that payment might have failed because of poor liquidity on my node. Thank you for trying. I appreciate the support regardless.

47
00:04:34.825 --> 00:04:36.605
Guys, today, I have

48
00:04:37.865 --> 00:04:46.525
returned guest, good friend, Seth for privacy here talking about his his new project. He he relatively recently joined Cake Wallet,

49
00:04:47.690 --> 00:04:53.630
and, they have some amazing Bitcoin integrations that we'll be talking about today. Seth, how's it going?

50
00:04:54.169 --> 00:04:56.430
It is going great, man. Yeah. I,

51
00:04:57.690 --> 00:05:05.755
tired after a long Vegas week. I know you you skipped the fun. You abandoned us, but, some of us were out there, you know, presenting,

52
00:05:06.135 --> 00:05:06.635
interviewing,

53
00:05:07.255 --> 00:05:09.355
chatting with 30,000

54
00:05:09.415 --> 00:05:09.915
people

55
00:05:10.695 --> 00:05:13.995
about Bitcoin and, unfortunately, getting asked about Ripple a few times.

56
00:05:14.615 --> 00:05:16.715
Which Did you talk to all 30,000?

57
00:05:17.030 --> 00:05:17.530
So,

58
00:05:18.070 --> 00:05:20.010
it feels like it. It feels like it.

59
00:05:20.950 --> 00:05:29.850
What? They showed Ripple as the on the price chart. Right? They still do that. I don't know whether they Yeah. They they still somehow, it still got some semblance of

60
00:05:30.150 --> 00:05:33.245
of relevance pretty set to see. Well It's crazy.

61
00:05:33.865 --> 00:05:39.805
I mean, let's start there since you brought it up. First of all, I felt absolutely zero FOMO whatsoever not being in Vegas.

62
00:05:42.265 --> 00:05:43.965
How was it? What were the highlights?

63
00:05:44.505 --> 00:05:45.565
What were your takeaways?

64
00:05:47.305 --> 00:05:47.965
I mean,

65
00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:51.300
similar to you, I would think.

66
00:05:52.320 --> 00:05:57.220
I wasn't there for the, like, the main stage stuff. Like, Ross' side, there was nothing

67
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:03.255
for me personally, and that's not not to slam the Bitcoin mad guys, but nothing for me personally on the main stage really.

68
00:06:04.455 --> 00:06:08.315
But the the open source or open source stage is always just fantastic.

69
00:06:08.775 --> 00:06:13.595
There's so many people that get to come together that you don't normally get to have conversations with.

70
00:06:14.935 --> 00:06:18.750
And that's something that I really, really appreciate. I mean, unfortunately, like,

71
00:06:19.550 --> 00:06:24.130
I was working a booth the whole time. So I was basically talking to people, like, ten hours a day.

72
00:06:24.510 --> 00:06:29.330
I got to do a panel on a presentation, which was a blast as well. But I didn't really get I didn't get to see anybody's,

73
00:06:29.870 --> 00:06:32.050
talks or anything. On the open source stage?

74
00:06:32.855 --> 00:06:43.035
My panel was open source open source stage. The, the presentation was to the the dev zone, which I think was the, like, lava dev zone this year or something. Just like a smaller side stage.

75
00:06:43.495 --> 00:06:47.820
How was the venue for the open source stage? What do you think the seating capacity was?

76
00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:51.100
It was a lot bigger than last year for sure.

77
00:06:51.420 --> 00:06:52.640
I think it was probably

78
00:06:55.020 --> 00:07:11.675
A thousand people? Probably about a thousand. Yeah. I would say. And pretty well attended. Yeah. I felt like like, again, I didn't see it throughout all the different talks, but being up there from my panel, it felt like it was probably they're probably good five, six hundred people in there at least. That's awesome. Yeah. A lot better attended attended than I expected, honestly,

79
00:07:12.215 --> 00:07:18.715
which is good to see. I mean, that's that's the signal there. Like, %, that's the signal there. So it was it was great to be a part of that.

80
00:07:19.020 --> 00:07:21.120
Yeah. I mean, the open source stage

81
00:07:21.660 --> 00:07:22.560
has a close

82
00:07:23.420 --> 00:07:25.280
close spot in my heart because,

83
00:07:27.020 --> 00:07:29.360
for many years there, it was the Odell stage.

84
00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:31.600
To the new freaks,

85
00:07:32.005 --> 00:07:36.105
I consulted for Bitcoin magazine from 2020 when there were eight employees.

86
00:07:38.485 --> 00:07:42.425
02/20/2023

87
00:07:42.565 --> 00:07:46.825
was my last my last showing. So it was three conferences. It was '21,

88
00:07:47.030 --> 00:07:48.570
'20 '2, and '23.

89
00:07:48.790 --> 00:07:49.850
Mhmm. And

90
00:07:50.310 --> 00:07:51.610
I will say that,

91
00:07:53.750 --> 00:07:54.250
despite,

92
00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:02.895
you know, might not people might not just agree with all the decisions made by Bitcoin Magazine.

93
00:08:03.595 --> 00:08:08.655
David Bailey and leadership there were always very supportive of the open source initiative. We championed

94
00:08:08.955 --> 00:08:10.895
giving developers free tickets.

95
00:08:11.835 --> 00:08:15.935
The first one was, like, this tiny dome we had for the open source stage.

96
00:08:16.289 --> 00:08:20.150
It was like a sweaty nerd tent. We thought there was air conditioning. There wasn't.

97
00:08:21.569 --> 00:08:25.750
They're always good about not putting shit sponsors on the on the stage.

98
00:08:26.210 --> 00:08:29.750
Mhmm. It was basically a lost leader, like, never made profit.

99
00:08:31.384 --> 00:08:39.404
And it got bigger and bigger, and it was good to see that after I left that they continued the the trend. It was it, you know, it

100
00:08:39.785 --> 00:08:44.205
it was not a given. It was not a given. It takes a lot of efforts. It takes a lot of time.

101
00:08:44.585 --> 00:08:47.005
People don't realize their team is absolutely tiny.

102
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.340
And then the last piece I will say on that is

103
00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:53.620
all these conference centers are union run.

104
00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:56.020
So live streams

105
00:08:56.400 --> 00:08:58.180
cost way more than they should.

106
00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:00.820
So that's why

107
00:09:01.435 --> 00:09:05.455
they never live stream that stage. They usually only live stream the main stage.

108
00:09:05.835 --> 00:09:09.855
But everything is recorded. So I presume we'll start to see those panels

109
00:09:10.235 --> 00:09:13.055
get panels and presentations get released

110
00:09:13.515 --> 00:09:23.510
over the next few weeks as they cut up the content and post it. So just keep an eye out for that. I'm sure there was a lot of good stuff there that that I'm not even aware of.

111
00:09:23.890 --> 00:09:29.490
Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't aware of that, but that that makes a lot more sense why that wouldn't be live streamed because it had all the gear and everything there. So

112
00:09:30.345 --> 00:09:36.524
yeah. Yeah. As soon as you, like, press the live button, it, like, goes up a hundred x. That's crazy. It's crazy.

113
00:09:36.985 --> 00:09:49.470
And Internet too. Like, the Internet is all unionized. It's all a fucking it's all a fucking mess. That explains why it's also have Internet. There was no expo Internet. There was no, like There you go. Crazy. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. And,

114
00:09:50.030 --> 00:09:54.130
that's also why it's impressive that they accept Bitcoin too because you have to, like

115
00:09:55.870 --> 00:10:10.265
you know, it's the unions bought try and block everything, and they've been accepting Bitcoin. I think for all their events, they've accepted Bitcoin, or at least all the ones that I was part of. I think in 2019, they accepted it. It was the only one I wasn't It's before my time. Before.

116
00:10:10.885 --> 00:10:11.385
Mhmm.

117
00:10:11.765 --> 00:10:12.265
Anyway,

118
00:10:12.805 --> 00:10:13.305
Seth,

119
00:10:15.260 --> 00:10:16.080
Cake Wallet.

120
00:10:17.020 --> 00:10:18.640
When did you join Cake Wallet?

121
00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:25.440
September. So nine months already. It's absolutely flown by. But, yeah, last September.

122
00:10:26.105 --> 00:10:29.485
And your title is vice president. You're the JD Vance of K Quality.

123
00:10:31.225 --> 00:10:35.085
You're not like the you're not like the VP of something. You're just VP.

124
00:10:35.465 --> 00:10:37.325
Yeah. Yeah. Just VP. Yeah.

125
00:10:38.839 --> 00:10:46.620
Yeah. I mean, that was an awesome an awesome opportunity. I've known Vic for a long time, and I know we were chatting a little bit before before we hit record, but I've known Vic for a long time.

126
00:10:47.639 --> 00:11:03.985
He's one of the most, like, generous and kind men that I've ever had the had the privilege of getting to hang out with. Met him a long time ago at, MoneroCon in 2019. So before I before I got more into the Bitcoin scene, that was my first conference I'd ever been to. And we just always have had, like, a loose friendship since then, but,

127
00:11:05.160 --> 00:11:07.480
yeah, I mean, the the opportunity came up for

128
00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.800
really, he needed somebody to run run the business, run the day to day.

129
00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:13.819
And, obviously, I'm

130
00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:21.355
deeply passionate about all the things that they've been shipping. Like, they had already shipped silent payments before that. They already kicked off the effort around PayJoin before that.

131
00:11:21.735 --> 00:11:24.535
Obviously, started as a Monero only wallet originally, so,

132
00:11:24.935 --> 00:11:26.955
a privacy ethos at its core.

133
00:11:27.735 --> 00:11:46.850
So there was already a a clear alignment there, and I've gotten to spend a good bit of time with the team as well last year at a conference. I'm just getting to hang out with them at dinners and stuff. And just absolutely fantastic people. So when the opportunity came up, it was a it was a no brainer to to jump over and get to get, really get my hands on a lot more in the privacy space, especially from a Bitcoin perspective,

134
00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:53.264
because there's there's so much that you can build today that's really hard to build because no one else is building it,

135
00:11:54.045 --> 00:11:54.944
yet, unfortunately.

136
00:11:56.125 --> 00:12:01.264
And it it's, I think just the really the perfect team to to jump into that with. But yeah. Yeah. VP

137
00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:07.500
pretty much running the day to day. Vic's still involved and getting more involved now now that a a side business of his is a little more chill.

138
00:12:08.540 --> 00:12:10.240
So loving that as well, but,

139
00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:14.880
really great to be able to, yeah, just do a lot of the product the product design,

140
00:12:16.014 --> 00:12:20.755
help fantastic devs be able to ship more fantastic releases, and been a blast so far.

141
00:12:21.375 --> 00:12:22.274
I love it.

142
00:12:23.695 --> 00:12:25.615
So okay. Where should we start here?

143
00:12:26.175 --> 00:12:27.074
First of all,

144
00:12:29.135 --> 00:12:30.834
I wanna say that

145
00:12:31.430 --> 00:12:33.370
a particular passion of mine,

146
00:12:34.070 --> 00:12:39.370
since helping to launch ten thirty one Mhmm. Is the idea of profitable,

147
00:12:40.470 --> 00:12:40.970
false,

148
00:12:41.589 --> 00:12:43.769
self custody focused businesses.

149
00:12:44.390 --> 00:12:46.250
A lot of people say it's not possible.

150
00:12:47.855 --> 00:12:52.035
Cake Wallet is one of the exceptions or one of the trailblazers

151
00:12:52.335 --> 00:12:56.835
in that front. So it's incredibly impressive that you guys are fully MIT licensed,

152
00:12:57.215 --> 00:12:59.395
fully false. Anyone can fork it,

153
00:12:59.800 --> 00:13:03.340
but you actually have a sustainable profitable business model. So,

154
00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:09.740
I wanna put that out there because Yeah. It's it's an exception to a rule right now. But, hopefully,

155
00:13:10.920 --> 00:13:14.220
as we start, you know, charting this path into the future where,

156
00:13:15.714 --> 00:13:23.894
we're we'll we'll start to see more more profitable false businesses. Yeah. I see Rob Hamilton in the comments, cofounder of Anchor Watch.

157
00:13:25.074 --> 00:13:33.010
I think ten thirty one is the largest investor in Anchor Watch. He was on the show, and I was trying to get him to, make a self custody wallet,

158
00:13:35.150 --> 00:13:43.410
open source. So we had a bit of a back and forth. Well, as you can see, Rob, I see you in the live chat. It's possible someone's doing it. It is. And, commendable.

159
00:13:44.935 --> 00:13:48.475
So Cake Wallet, self custody wallet available on Android and iOS.

160
00:13:48.935 --> 00:13:50.155
Is it available on desktop?

161
00:13:50.695 --> 00:13:59.860
It is. Yeah. Yeah. I would say the the mobile experience is definitely the best right now. But one of our goals for the the second half of this year is revamping the desktop from the ground up,

162
00:14:00.420 --> 00:14:11.060
especially for power users, like, trying to bring much better coin control, better hardware, all that support, trying to make something that can grow with you just like the mobile app. But I'd say the the desktop app is kind of a

163
00:14:12.005 --> 00:14:23.545
I don't know if I should say this as the VP of the company, but kind of a second class that is in right now, to the mobile app. So mobile is definitely the best experience, but we are on all major desktop platforms as well. And lots of work coming that way over the next six months or so.

164
00:14:24.325 --> 00:14:25.145
I love it.

165
00:14:27.459 --> 00:14:28.279
Okay. So,

166
00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:31.880
self custody false wall available on pretty much every platform.

167
00:14:32.260 --> 00:14:32.740
Mhmm.

168
00:14:33.540 --> 00:14:37.240
You support you you already stated you supported Monero first,

169
00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:42.575
then you added Bitcoin, and you have a bunch of other shit coins in there too. Right? It's like Yeah.

170
00:14:42.955 --> 00:14:47.935
Some some that I'm cool with, some that I I'm gonna keep fighting back to remove. So

171
00:14:48.315 --> 00:14:49.775
there's People use Nano?

172
00:14:50.395 --> 00:14:52.495
Like, that is, like, clicking around in there?

173
00:14:52.875 --> 00:14:53.375
Surprisingly,

174
00:14:53.675 --> 00:14:55.950
yes. I mean, not it's not,

175
00:14:56.330 --> 00:15:05.230
like, huge, I would say. So I'll I'll I'll caveat everything I say about usage with the fact that we care deeply about privacy so much so that we have no logging, no analytics,

176
00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:25.700
no usage info. We don't know anything about the users of our wallet, who creates a Nano wallet, how much crypto you have, obviously, anything like that. So you don't know how much Nano I own? We I I don't. I don't. I can assume. I think I can make a pretty good assumption. I think the heuristic there is pretty, pretty high about probably a % to to having zero, but,

177
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:32.660
you know, you never know. Maybe you're secretly a nano shell. You're one of those bots in my replies over the last, five or six years. But

178
00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:35.700
yeah. Not nano, I don't think, is a huge one. But,

179
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:36.820
yeah.

180
00:15:37.464 --> 00:15:38.765
So so, I mean,

181
00:15:39.145 --> 00:15:53.480
I I have I guess we're starting with the hard hitting questions because I I don't want you to necessarily, like, alienate your user bases. Yeah. But what is the thought process there? Because, like, Nano was something that, like, I was arguing with people on, like, the Nano

182
00:15:54.020 --> 00:15:59.959
bot army. I was arguing with them, like, five years ago, six years ago. Yeah. And it's, like, something that I hadn't even considered.

183
00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:06.600
I I complete let me put it this way. I completely forgot about them until I was testing out Cake before the show.

184
00:16:06.995 --> 00:16:07.654
Yeah. I

185
00:16:07.955 --> 00:16:24.080
mean, I'll yeah. I'll say the same. I forgot about them until I started at cake. It's it's never been a concern of mine. A lot of the stuff was obviously added before I joined. So, like, some of the stories there aren't huge. I think the clear one for Nano though is just that it has been something that people actually like to use and spend,

186
00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:26.480
but it does seem like it's

187
00:16:27.020 --> 00:16:31.760
died out. Like, the idea behind it was always one that was focused on spending, but

188
00:16:32.300 --> 00:16:45.404
I just haven't seen much much life there. But we we do definitely get, like like, some of the coins we have, like, literally no one even open support tickets or something. So, like, those are those are ones we probably would remove. But, Nano, we do get some signs of life, some people posting on socials about using it to

189
00:16:45.785 --> 00:16:50.125
to do things, but it's certainly not a, like, a a top tier coin or anything.

190
00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:59.960
Anyway, I'm not gonna ask you, like, shit on specific sets of users. But, Just we can just go cryptocurrency by cryptocurrency. I can just Yeah. You know people I can piss off in one recording.

191
00:17:00.420 --> 00:17:13.835
I just I just we we said before the show that I really like this fit for you because both the Monero Maxis and the Bitcoin Maxis hate you, and I just feel like it's just a really ideal situation for you to be in. Mhmm.

192
00:17:14.695 --> 00:17:17.035
No. But just big picture, like, is the plan

193
00:17:17.895 --> 00:17:20.395
to flood the app with even more shitcoins,

194
00:17:20.775 --> 00:17:24.530
or is it maybe reduce it and be a little bit more focused?

195
00:17:25.070 --> 00:17:27.410
Yeah. I mean, I I think, generally, the plan is

196
00:17:28.510 --> 00:17:43.554
reduce it. Obviously, it's that's something you wanna approach carefully as a self custodial wallet. Because, obviously, if those users haven't backed up their seeds properly Right. Or something and you We're kinda locked in to the tech debt. Yeah. It's a it's a little bit painful. Like, I would say it can be done. We removed one recently,

197
00:17:44.655 --> 00:17:52.570
that has been coming for a long time. It was called Haven. They've finally shut down the project. They should have. It was like a privacy focused stablecoin, but,

198
00:17:54.070 --> 00:17:56.090
the desert Was it a fork of Monero?

199
00:17:56.550 --> 00:18:04.490
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was supposed to have, like, this algorithmic stablecoin that you could move back and forth between the, like, the base asset and the different stablecoins.

200
00:18:05.134 --> 00:18:08.034
Again, interesting in practice, but they just they got

201
00:18:08.335 --> 00:18:20.115
they got hacked. Like, I don't think that's ever happened. Over the years. Yeah. It it I've given up on algorithmic stable coins. The I think they're they're doomed. If someone proves it and it works for, like, five years, maybe I'll be interested. But

202
00:18:20.429 --> 00:18:25.649
even just Tether year. It's just Tether and then Bitcoin standard, I think. But we'll see.

203
00:18:26.429 --> 00:18:30.370
I I think, generally, though, yeah, it's it's reduced. Like, my perspective is,

204
00:18:31.629 --> 00:18:33.970
like it or not, we're in a multi crypto world,

205
00:18:35.345 --> 00:18:35.845
And

206
00:18:36.225 --> 00:18:41.024
people the vast majority of people, not the vocal minority on Twitter or something, but the vast majority of people,

207
00:18:43.585 --> 00:18:47.684
use multiple things. Most of them save in Bitcoin. Many of them spend in Monero.

208
00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:53.559
Many of them spend in stablecoins or use stablecoins as a an escape from their broken fiat. So,

209
00:18:53.860 --> 00:19:01.879
like, my my vision and I won't say necessarily this is exactly what CAKE will do because, obviously, I don't own CAKE. But my vision is that we embrace

210
00:19:02.625 --> 00:19:04.565
the tools that people are using for freedom,

211
00:19:05.265 --> 00:19:10.645
and focus heavily on those, making it much easier to achieve privacy on Bitcoin, making it much easier to

212
00:19:10.945 --> 00:19:18.940
use Monero day to day, making it much easier to use ZTM chains for stablecoins. As painful as that is. I'm still very torn on the whole stable coin topic,

213
00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:21.179
because I know it's helping a lot of people

214
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:23.020
while at the same time is

215
00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:24.700
basically a CBDC.

216
00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:32.565
So that one's a little bit harder for me, but that's kinda the way that I'm approaching it. And some of the stuff, like, some of the stuff that's been in the

217
00:19:33.025 --> 00:19:35.365
in the wallet is, like, very interesting

218
00:19:36.065 --> 00:19:48.990
technical approaches or unique unique privacy coins, that sort of thing. That's interesting and doesn't doesn't really cause too many problems. But focus for me is really trying to embrace, like, what what is providing freedom to people around the world,

219
00:19:49.370 --> 00:19:50.890
and how can we best serve that?

220
00:19:51.370 --> 00:19:55.070
And as I'm sure you know, unfortunately, a lot of times that's not Bitcoin,

221
00:19:55.610 --> 00:19:57.550
even though it it should be more, I think.

222
00:19:59.130 --> 00:20:00.030
Yeah. I mean,

223
00:20:06.725 --> 00:20:09.065
I'm just I'm scrolling through the shit coins.

224
00:20:11.445 --> 00:20:11.605
The

225
00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:13.640
I

226
00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:19.640
I I see you have Tron support. So I assume that also supports Tron Tether. Right? Yep.

227
00:20:20.260 --> 00:20:30.835
Yep. Like, that one that one makes the most sense to me because Tether you're just trusting Tether regardless. So it doesn't really matter what it runs on, and the world is running on Tron Tether right now.

228
00:20:32.815 --> 00:20:36.595
And true. And then yeah. And the unfortunate reality is that

229
00:20:36.975 --> 00:20:39.395
is if you let a bunch of bad wallets

230
00:20:40.250 --> 00:20:44.670
be the only ones that support Tron and Tether, then Mhmm. You have, you know,

231
00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:47.710
hundreds of millions of people using

232
00:20:48.330 --> 00:20:53.710
bad wallets because they want Tron Tether support. And this was something that we struggled with at Strike.

233
00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:54.750
Mhmm.

234
00:20:56.425 --> 00:21:00.045
And we eventually just added Tron Tether support. We were like, we support

235
00:21:00.585 --> 00:21:01.085
Citibank

236
00:21:01.465 --> 00:21:02.205
in America.

237
00:21:03.225 --> 00:21:10.125
And, like, in Argentina, like, their dollar rails they want is Tron Tether. And Twitter got really angry at us. And

238
00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:23.070
then usage numbers went through the roof. Like, it was just crazy. Like, people wanted to get away from Binance and Trust Wallet and and Yeah. So you kinda had to support it. And I think it's probably a net benefit, but

239
00:21:23.815 --> 00:21:28.875
also, probably a corporate bank digital currency and has a lot of the same issues. But

240
00:21:29.255 --> 00:21:33.195
It is. It kinda is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. It is. But I I think a lot of people

241
00:21:34.215 --> 00:21:41.200
overlook the kind of top of funnel nature that stable coins can be. Or even other cryptocurrencies or maybe they're not ideal.

242
00:21:41.899 --> 00:21:45.520
But when they're in a wallet that also heavily pushes

243
00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:50.320
things like Bitcoin privacy tech, Bitcoin self custody that pushes Monero for spending,

244
00:21:50.985 --> 00:21:57.165
Like, these things act as a funnel. And the little data that we do have, which is basically just from talking to our exchange partners,

245
00:21:58.025 --> 00:22:03.245
the the volume between stablecoins into Bitcoin and into Monero is massive. Like,

246
00:22:03.780 --> 00:22:12.680
the a lot of the time, people are using these as an on ramp into freedom money. Obviously, sometimes the other way around. Like, I think something that I see a lot in the West is

247
00:22:12.980 --> 00:22:13.800
people going,

248
00:22:14.100 --> 00:22:15.000
like, basically,

249
00:22:17.215 --> 00:22:22.035
locking in their gains by just moving to stable coins from Bitcoin or Monero so that they can

250
00:22:22.735 --> 00:22:31.155
they can hold that in stable coins and then get back in later on. But but I think something that people sometimes forget is, like you said, like, obviously, you want people in a good wallet.

251
00:22:31.510 --> 00:22:50.215
You want them in something that is actually open source, that does actually help them to self custody, that does actually provide privacy features. But then you also can act as a funnel to drive them into freedom money. And that's, I think, a lot of the way that I that I envision this as well is, like, if we onboard someone who's just there because they need tether on Tron because that's the escape from their broken fiat,

252
00:22:50.595 --> 00:22:55.174
they're gonna get introduced to so many other things that hopefully will be the the start of the rabbit hole for them.

253
00:22:55.635 --> 00:22:56.835
Yeah. I see,

254
00:22:57.875 --> 00:22:59.955
free critters zapped 4,200

255
00:22:59.955 --> 00:23:00.455
sets

256
00:23:01.529 --> 00:23:10.429
in the live chat. Thank you. Free critter. He's asking a question about your business model. Is that the majority of the business model is the swaps between the different

257
00:23:11.210 --> 00:23:11.710
currencies?

258
00:23:12.169 --> 00:23:23.285
Yeah. So how does how does that work? Like, you don't actually do the swaps. You just get, like, you get, like, a referral fee or something when people do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a fee share from our our swap partners. We have a couple aggregators.

259
00:23:24.145 --> 00:23:27.925
One of whom is Trocador, who we've had a great relationship with for years and years, and,

260
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:34.419
people like ChangeNow, others. We're very cautious with who we implement to make sure that they're they're not the

261
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:41.299
heavy shotgun KYC type. We're very obviously careful with that because that's the main downside of instant exchangers like that. But,

262
00:23:42.320 --> 00:23:47.505
we're we're kinda relentlessly keeping an eye on on how they handle swaps and what what support,

263
00:23:48.125 --> 00:24:04.680
reports we get, that sort of thing to try and ensure that they're good. But, yeah, I mean, that's that's the subordinate. I think something that a lot of people forget is, like, if we are in a multi crypto world, embracing that does just have a good side for business. Like, people wanna swap between cryptos.

264
00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:14.225
Again, like I said, most of what we see is people swapping into Bitcoin or Monero. We do have a heavy Monero user base because we started as a Monero wallet back in the day

265
00:24:14.605 --> 00:24:20.065
and have, I would say, the majority of the market share in Monero. So we do still see a lot of Monero movement as well. But,

266
00:24:20.685 --> 00:24:27.840
as we've been rapidly growing in the Bitcoin segment as well, we're seeing people use use those crypto swaps to get into the cryptocurrencies they want,

267
00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:33.620
which is a a cool use case. But yeah. I mean, it's pretty straightforward. It's essentially crypto to crypto swaps,

268
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:36.260
which is is key to our business.

269
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.580
It is buying and selling cryptocurrencies,

270
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:52.315
but that's much smaller compared to the crypto to crypto swaps. What? Like, dollars to Yeah. Yeah. The normal, like, unfortunately, in KYC. For now, obviously, we're working on some decentralized exchange integrations down the line, but those are just

271
00:24:52.615 --> 00:25:00.710
really hard from user experience perspective to to do well. What is that like? People using, like, Apple Pay to buy or something? Yeah. It would be like debit card, ACH.

272
00:25:01.090 --> 00:25:09.830
It would depend a lot on the geography because, like, in Brazil, they have picks, and there's there's different ones that are ideal for each geography. But, yeah, the normal stuff, unfortunately, KYC.

273
00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:11.175
But that's

274
00:25:11.735 --> 00:25:16.075
that's a tiny a tiny percent of our revenue compared to the crypto to crypto swaps.

275
00:25:16.695 --> 00:25:25.915
And then the third is our our gift card and debit card proxy merchant service, basically, called K Pay, where you can you can go and use a crypto, no KYC, no ID, nothing but email address necessary to get gift cards or debit cards you can add to Apple or Google Pay.

276
00:25:31.790 --> 00:25:45.885
Oh, that's awesome. It's been growing really quickly. It's directly in the app. We have some really good improvements coming where you'll be able to redeem those cards in the app as well, like gift cards specifically. So you can, like, be in the Lowe's checkout and buy your gift card from Bitcoin and,

277
00:25:46.665 --> 00:25:48.205
go ahead and use it at checkout and

278
00:25:48.745 --> 00:25:54.285
use it places where you're not just not gonna be able to spend Bitcoin right now. So that's the third piece of it. But yeah.

279
00:25:54.910 --> 00:25:56.530
Yeah. It's a nice stop gap.

280
00:25:57.470 --> 00:25:58.450
I I've used

281
00:25:58.990 --> 00:26:02.610
I use the Bitcoin company in the past, which gives you, like, Visa cards.

282
00:26:02.990 --> 00:26:03.490
Yeah.

283
00:26:04.110 --> 00:26:10.825
It's a nice stop gap. Like, if you're trying to live on a Bitcoin standard and they don't accept Bitcoin and you just wanna know KYC

284
00:26:12.725 --> 00:26:16.585
Visa prepaid or something like that. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. For sure.

285
00:26:17.125 --> 00:26:21.465
Okay. Let's dive into the novel features you've added on the Bitcoin side.

286
00:26:23.430 --> 00:26:25.050
You've added silent payments.

287
00:26:25.830 --> 00:26:35.530
Mhmm. So why don't you explain to the listeners what silent payments are, like, why people should care? Yeah. For sure. Have you talked about them at all in previous shows? Like, how how deep should I go?

288
00:26:36.274 --> 00:26:36.755
Good.

289
00:26:37.075 --> 00:26:41.335
Go kinda deep. Okay. Alright. We've talked about it maybe,

290
00:26:43.235 --> 00:26:48.330
like, a year ago when it was more in theory. I don't know of any other Bitcoin wallets that have

291
00:26:48.730 --> 00:26:52.590
integrated silent payments yet, except for maybe Wasabi on desktop.

292
00:26:53.210 --> 00:26:55.070
Yeah. There's a couple that have sending

293
00:26:55.450 --> 00:26:55.950
support.

294
00:26:56.809 --> 00:27:06.295
There's only one other real one that has sending and receiving support, which is built by the people who won the HRF bounty for silent payments. But it's a silent payments only desktop.

295
00:27:06.915 --> 00:27:09.255
I think it's called Dana Wallet. Let me just

296
00:27:09.555 --> 00:27:13.575
pull up the list real quick. Oh, but it's silent payments only, and it's on desktop?

297
00:27:14.915 --> 00:27:18.855
Yeah. It's silent payments only. I'm just trying to pull it up right now.

298
00:27:19.360 --> 00:27:21.700
I think it's mobile. Yeah. It's mobile wallet.

299
00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:31.220
I haven't tried it yet. To me to me, it was mostly a theoretical conversation until I saw you added it to k Wallet. So why don't you go a little on the deeper side of

300
00:27:31.654 --> 00:27:33.595
how it works? Why should people care?

301
00:27:34.375 --> 00:27:35.495
Yeah. For sure. So,

302
00:27:36.215 --> 00:27:51.540
when I approach silent payments, like, I I don't wanna oversell the privacy benefits. So I think the much more useful way to view it is it's a a new Bitcoin address type that brings really good user experience benefits that can also bring privacy improvements.

303
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.340
So, basically, what it is is it's it's a

304
00:27:54.800 --> 00:28:01.140
static reusable address that you can give out to anybody. You can put in your Twitter bio. You can put in your,

305
00:28:02.105 --> 00:28:12.125
email signature. Put it wherever you want. And anytime anyone wants to pay you, instead of, like, a normal Bitcoin address where everybody, whoever pays you, can see the funds received to that address,

306
00:28:12.505 --> 00:28:14.040
the sender will actually use

307
00:28:14.360 --> 00:28:20.140
three things. There's two public keys in the silent payments address. That's why I see it's much longer than normal Bitcoin address.

308
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:31.445
And then the sender will use those two public keys plus the inputs to his own transaction that he's sending you, which is obviously a little weird compared to most Bitcoin transactions. But he'll use those inputs,

309
00:28:32.145 --> 00:28:34.325
and he'll generate a unique one time

310
00:28:34.865 --> 00:28:36.485
tap root address for you.

311
00:28:37.505 --> 00:28:38.005
So

312
00:28:38.465 --> 00:28:46.179
this flips a lot of things on their heads, especially sync, which I'll explain a little bit later. But what this does is even though I share this wallet broadly,

313
00:28:47.039 --> 00:29:01.095
anyone can pay it at any time without knowing anything about other people who have paid and without any worry that someone just copying and pasting that into mimpl. Space or something is gonna see other donations that have happened. So it's a it is a good improvement on the the privacy side.

314
00:29:01.395 --> 00:29:02.855
It solves it solves

315
00:29:03.554 --> 00:29:08.934
it solves the problem that Ross just faced, Ross Ulbricht, because Ross had a static

316
00:29:09.610 --> 00:29:15.710
public donation address that he was reusing, just a regular Bitcoin address, and someone sent 300 Bitcoin to it.

317
00:29:16.010 --> 00:29:17.870
And then everyone in the world

318
00:29:18.250 --> 00:29:20.750
decided to have an opinion on his donation.

319
00:29:21.610 --> 00:29:23.630
But if that if that was a silent payment,

320
00:29:25.055 --> 00:29:28.275
then maybe a sleuth after the fact would see

321
00:29:28.815 --> 00:29:35.555
different outputs combined with each other in a transaction or something. But it wouldn't have been, like, this blatantly obvious, like,

322
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:48.100
his donation address just received 300 Bitcoin. Right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And, like, you you could do this today without silent payments, but you have to run a server. You're gonna have to run something BDC pay server. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

323
00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:01.674
Which is, like, I freaking love BTC pay. It's something we use every day at Cake. It's vital to what we do. But it's also way too much for the average person to run to have privacy, much less just somebody who wants to accept donations or tips or something like that.

324
00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:07.150
So it really, like, that the the core of the privacy that silent payments provides is it allows you to

325
00:30:07.850 --> 00:30:09.390
use a single static address,

326
00:30:09.770 --> 00:30:18.154
a single string without having to run a server or anything and avoid address reuse. Like, that's the only privacy piece that it does fix. Yeah. And that's obviously very important,

327
00:30:18.774 --> 00:30:21.835
but it's not a total solution for privacy.

328
00:30:22.375 --> 00:30:27.515
Like you mentioned, you could you could watch it if, like, this is Ross's silent payment address,

329
00:30:28.135 --> 00:30:35.260
and I was a bad actor. I could be dust attacking his silent payment address, dropping some outputs there that I would hope that he would recombine

330
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:41.500
later on with other outputs he had received. And then I would have a pretty good guess that those other inputs use coin control.

331
00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:44.060
He might include yours transactions

332
00:30:44.520 --> 00:30:57.155
in other transactions and then other inputs, and then you could see what was going on there. So it's I would say it's, like, similar to what BTC pay server is trying to solve, but, obviously, you're running a server. And then it's similar to PayNIMs

333
00:30:57.535 --> 00:30:59.795
that Samura had, BIP 47.

334
00:31:00.095 --> 00:31:01.235
So what's the differences

335
00:31:01.535 --> 00:31:02.035
between,

336
00:31:04.870 --> 00:31:10.490
silent payments and BIP 47? Like, there's a trade off there in terms of syncing. Right?

337
00:31:10.950 --> 00:31:12.090
Yeah. So the

338
00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:19.605
there's a few differences between BIP 47, which is the underlying stealth address type, the underlies underlying reasonable payment code

339
00:31:20.005 --> 00:31:26.985
to PayNMs. PayNMs is really just the wrapper on top that give you the short name, but that short name relied on central server to

340
00:31:27.365 --> 00:31:33.765
essentially transfer the code to the name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That but that long payment code that you get as part of a PayN,

341
00:31:34.290 --> 00:31:37.190
that's actually your BIP 47 stealth address, basically.

342
00:31:37.570 --> 00:31:42.690
They don't perfectly follow the BIP spec because samurai always does their own thing, but it's basically that.

343
00:31:43.250 --> 00:31:45.110
So the the main differences are

344
00:31:46.130 --> 00:31:48.550
twofold. Both systems have trade offs.

345
00:31:48.955 --> 00:31:54.655
Personally, I think silent payments has a much better set of trade offs, but they they both have trade offs. So

346
00:31:55.275 --> 00:32:04.415
silent payments, the big trade off, really the only trade off to me, is that in order to find your payments, it's different than bit 47. So with silent payments,

347
00:32:05.100 --> 00:32:10.240
again, you don't know where you're gonna get paid ahead of time. A normal Bitcoin wallet, all you do is you

348
00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:16.880
pre generate a bunch of addresses, and you send them off to a third party server to tell you your balance, which is obviously

349
00:32:17.355 --> 00:32:18.495
horrible for privacy.

350
00:32:19.195 --> 00:32:43.919
But it is the norm for most Bitcoin wallets in the space. There's a couple of solutions to this, but they also have trade offs, especially around user experience. But that's the norm within Bitcoin wallets is I know what addresses I might get paid at. I'm gonna ask a third party server to tell me if I've gotten paid or not. In silent payments, it's actually flipped on its head. You don't know when you're gonna get paid or what address is gonna be used there. So you can't ask a server, does this address have any balance? Because you don't know the addresses yourself.

351
00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:45.840
So instead, you're actually

352
00:32:46.555 --> 00:32:50.175
asking a remote server, hey. For these hundred blocks since I last synced,

353
00:32:50.555 --> 00:32:52.175
send me the possible

354
00:32:52.875 --> 00:33:00.575
outputs that could be mine. And there's a lot of ways this has been optimized already so that, like, we know we don't care about spend outputs, obviously, when we're syncing.

355
00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:03.680
We don't care about anything that's not taproot because silent payments,

356
00:33:04.460 --> 00:33:10.800
is only taproot outputs as well. And there's a few other things that we can check-in a transaction to see if it's potentially

357
00:33:11.180 --> 00:33:25.005
our payment or not. So we'll ask for all this data for the set of blocks. This would be the same data for anyone who was asking for sync, so there's nothing uniquely identifying about you. You get that data locally, and then you scan through it using your own private key or scan key

358
00:33:25.385 --> 00:33:36.110
to see if any of those transactions belong to you. So that takes a lot more time. Like, you're having to download more data, and then you're having to actually do a relatively resource intensive scan process locally.

359
00:33:37.130 --> 00:33:52.585
And so that's a very different user experience than the norm in Bitcoin where you just say, do I have balance? I'll reveal all my my privacy to get this data quickly. Versus silent payment says, I'm not gonna reveal any data about myself, and I'm gonna take a little bit longer to scan through this. It's quite quick in practice,

360
00:33:53.045 --> 00:33:58.745
but, obviously, if you're, like especially if you haven't synced your wallet, like, a month, six months, it can take quite a while.

361
00:33:59.230 --> 00:34:05.890
On the flip side, bit 47, the way that it that it avoids this problem is that for a bit 47,

362
00:34:06.269 --> 00:34:07.970
before someone sends you money,

363
00:34:08.510 --> 00:34:12.450
they have to notify you on chain where you're gonna receive that money.

364
00:34:14.355 --> 00:34:14.855
And

365
00:34:15.475 --> 00:34:23.735
they don't notify you of the address, but rather they notify you of essentially where to look for the addresses so that you can derive all of the addresses that this person could pay you at.

366
00:34:24.915 --> 00:34:25.415
And

367
00:34:25.875 --> 00:34:27.140
this works

368
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:32.900
to make the sync much easier because now your wallet can just check these opcode these op returns

369
00:34:33.359 --> 00:34:46.635
and see if any of the op returns belong to them. And then if they do, you your wallet knows where to look, and it knows where to derive addresses to send off to a third party server just like normal wallet sync. So it's still a little bit more than a normal wallet, but it's just checking up returns, so it's very quick.

370
00:34:47.175 --> 00:34:49.355
The major downside is twofold.

371
00:34:50.375 --> 00:34:51.755
One, if you

372
00:34:52.535 --> 00:34:53.195
do this,

373
00:34:53.495 --> 00:34:54.155
the sender

374
00:34:55.089 --> 00:34:57.910
necessarily tells the world that they are paying

375
00:34:58.770 --> 00:35:05.430
this specific payment code or paying them. It's set up like a network graph almost. It's because you have to have, like, a pairing transaction.

376
00:35:05.730 --> 00:35:08.630
Exactly. That pairing transaction is very bad for privacy,

377
00:35:09.185 --> 00:35:13.205
and it also reveals a lot about you as the sender to the recipient.

378
00:35:14.065 --> 00:35:19.605
Like, if you're connecting you're paying them to theirs as contacts, it reveals who is actually paying the recipient,

379
00:35:19.984 --> 00:35:28.200
which can be a bad thing to the recipient. Sorry. Not to the entire world. I do wanna make that that note clear, but it reveals that specific piece to the person you're paying as well.

380
00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:37.319
So that's obviously, that's a privacy downside. You're revealing that you're using PayNIMs or Bit 47. Wait. So in this case, like, if I'm donating to WikiLeaks

381
00:35:37.859 --> 00:35:38.359
Mhmm.

382
00:35:38.895 --> 00:35:42.035
And I do that pairing transaction, like, WikiLeaks knows

383
00:35:43.055 --> 00:35:54.950
that me as a user is doing is is making that pairing transaction. Yeah. That plus Odell is the one doing that. Right. Now there are some ways that you could work around that, but that's not currently done with how Samari Wallet had it implemented.

384
00:35:55.410 --> 00:36:03.670
Right. But bit 47 has, like, has a lot of alternate ways you could implement it. So I'll just I'll focus specifically on on how it's actually done with with pain ins. But

385
00:36:03.970 --> 00:36:05.349
that's the main downside

386
00:36:05.650 --> 00:36:15.185
for privacy with bit 47. But the other main downside is if I want to donate to you once, which is probably the majority of the usage for something like this,

387
00:36:15.805 --> 00:36:17.025
I have to make two transactions.

388
00:36:17.965 --> 00:36:22.705
Right. So, obviously, that's bad for fees. I'm gonna spend a lot more than I would otherwise.

389
00:36:23.950 --> 00:36:27.410
It's bad for a blockchain bloat's not the right term, but

390
00:36:27.870 --> 00:36:29.410
inefficient blockchain usage.

391
00:36:30.190 --> 00:36:43.214
And it's bad for privacy because I now have to link some output to the fact that I am paying this pain in, and then I am gonna have to send spend another input as well. So in order to make one donation, I'm gonna have to reveal,

392
00:36:44.315 --> 00:36:49.055
hopefully, two outputs. Because if I use the same output for the public notification as for the actual payment itself,

393
00:36:49.434 --> 00:36:50.970
that could be surveilled as well.

394
00:36:51.450 --> 00:36:54.190
So there's a lot of downsides that you you get

395
00:36:55.050 --> 00:36:59.150
you get a better user experience with bit 47, but you actually sacrifice a lot of privacy,

396
00:36:59.530 --> 00:37:01.050
and it's much more,

397
00:37:01.770 --> 00:37:02.910
block space inefficient.

398
00:37:03.705 --> 00:37:07.085
Whereas with with silent payments, you do have the scanning trade off,

399
00:37:07.625 --> 00:37:18.365
but there's there's really good ways to work around this. So in silent payments, when it comes to scanning, there's there's two main things you can do. One, which we're doing right now in Cake Wallet, should be out in a couple weeks, is background sync.

400
00:37:18.770 --> 00:37:22.550
So instead of just syncing your wallet when you open it up, which is the norm in Bitcoin

401
00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:26.230
wallets, we're used to in the Monero space, this whole this whole trainings,

402
00:37:26.770 --> 00:37:33.885
this whole scanning trade off of it takes a long time to sync your wallet. So we've already implemented background sync for Monero and other cryptocurrencies,

403
00:37:34.665 --> 00:37:35.165
within

404
00:37:35.545 --> 00:37:42.744
Cake Wallet. We're gonna enable silent payments. We were just fixing some stuff on the silent payment side. Because right now, it's manual. Right? Like, you click a button to

405
00:37:43.940 --> 00:37:48.759
It it depends. You can set it to always be scanning, but it's only always scanning in,

406
00:37:49.779 --> 00:38:06.475
when you're when you have the wallet open. So background sync will mean that you can tell your wallet, I wanna sync daily, I wanna sync hourly, or I wanna sync every fifteen minutes. And it'll do that in the background with your scan key. No private keys are hot. And so at worst, you would have one day of blocks to sync, which

407
00:38:06.775 --> 00:38:07.515
is, like,

408
00:38:08.215 --> 00:38:14.240
five seconds ish to sync through that. And that's the worst case scenario. You could easily do hourly sync

409
00:38:14.620 --> 00:38:24.720
and essentially never have any sync trade off. Got it. The the other way you can do it is that scan key that you're using for background sync. You could also just offload to a third party server. Now that does reveal

410
00:38:25.135 --> 00:38:28.435
your silent payment, receive transactions to that third party server,

411
00:38:28.975 --> 00:38:30.755
but then you're just back at the same

412
00:38:31.135 --> 00:39:11.345
privacy from that trusted third party as a normal wallet, but you have all of the privacy benefits versus an outside observer of silent payments. Right. Or best case, and this is what we're pushing for. We're working with Josie Baik right now to to help to build build out better solutions for this, is you're already running a Bitcoin node. You have an Umbrella or start nine or something. Why can't you just run a very lightweight service that you offload scan keys to? And that server is always online. It's always in sync. So then you'll get the sync experience of a regular Bitcoin wallet, but with all of the privacy benefits and user experience benefits of silent payments. And that's really the the end goal there of background sync for those who don't wanna trust an outside observe or a a third party,

413
00:39:11.799 --> 00:39:17.980
and then offloading scan key for either someone who's okay with trusting a third party or who runs the the server themselves.

414
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:20.619
Makes sense.

415
00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:22.779
So then when

416
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.059
I mean, I see this comment from Cortic.

417
00:39:31.585 --> 00:39:31.984
Like,

418
00:39:32.625 --> 00:39:34.724
I'm gonna re we're gonna respond to it,

419
00:39:35.265 --> 00:39:36.145
but I would just

420
00:39:37.905 --> 00:39:44.300
Cortek, I appreciate you. I'd like, I would rather not get into, like, a massive debate over semantics during this conversation.

421
00:39:45.560 --> 00:39:47.020
But Quartek is saying,

422
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:57.180
you guys are wrong. There's no dependencies on any server. BIP forty seven is serverless pay n m R s site is just a directory of reusable codes.

423
00:39:58.065 --> 00:40:04.965
I think we said that. Refer to Lauren MT, and you do not need a notification transaction here. Lauren explains the metaphor.

424
00:40:05.905 --> 00:40:07.125
The way they had it implemented

425
00:40:07.425 --> 00:40:16.700
used a notification transaction. Presumably, you could do it out out of band if you wanted to, But then you can't restore from seed, which is a really nice

426
00:40:17.160 --> 00:40:20.140
I actually kind of agreed with their trade off decision there because

427
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:25.900
you wanna be able to restore from seed. So that's why they use a notification transaction because the chain is always there.

428
00:40:26.615 --> 00:40:28.954
So you could get it there instead of out of band.

429
00:40:29.494 --> 00:40:32.714
And, yeah, the payment website was, like, plus Odell.

430
00:40:33.175 --> 00:40:34.075
Mhmm. But it

431
00:40:34.615 --> 00:40:40.954
it pinged to a reusable payment code. So for for years, I would just post my reusable payment code on the

432
00:40:42.180 --> 00:40:47.800
didn't have to actually hit their server. But for convenience, you could just type in plus Odell as long as the server was there and do it.

433
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:48.920
Yeah.

434
00:40:49.460 --> 00:41:10.645
So with silent payments, I also see NewTonic is asking, does Cake support BIP third 353 for silent payments? I don't know what that means because I don't know what that means. Because I don't know what that means. Because I don't know what that means. The actual BIPs. On my BIPs. Payments. And we we are doing it as as to spec as possible, trying to make sure that it's That's awesome. With everybody else. Mhmm. Because that's the key. Right? It's, like, people can say,

435
00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:14.450
Ross shouldn't have done a reusable address.

436
00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:21.490
He I mean, he they shouldn't have done just a regular Bitcoin address. He should have done a BTC pay service.

437
00:41:21.870 --> 00:41:29.045
The thing is is if you add friction to a donation, you might never get the donation in the first place. And this is something I saw when we had,

438
00:41:29.985 --> 00:41:32.485
Lionel Shriver on the show, author of Mandibles.

439
00:41:33.185 --> 00:41:38.965
Mhmm. People told me a million different ways for her to accept donations, and I just posted a single fixed address.

440
00:41:39.450 --> 00:41:53.070
And why did I do that? I did that because I wanted any OG to be able to just scan the QR code and pay her. And sure enough, she received over a Bitcoin in donations, and one of the donations was nearly a Bitcoin itself. It was like a single

441
00:41:53.609 --> 00:41:54.830
a single dude, like,

442
00:41:55.265 --> 00:42:00.485
probably used a old ass wallet and scanned and paid it and and sent sent a Bitcoin.

443
00:42:01.025 --> 00:42:08.700
And by the way, she's still holding it because that has horrible privacy. So you can tell on chain that she's holding it. But also because I talked to her on email and she said,

444
00:42:09.180 --> 00:42:16.160
that she's gonna hold it through the apocalypse, and she's very, very excited to Nice. I mean, it's When they come to the ocean, she'll have her stats.

445
00:42:16.460 --> 00:42:19.980
She came yeah. She came on the show. She has, like, a hundred and $30,000

446
00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:23.280
worth of Bitcoin now. It's, like, the best podcast appearance she ever made.

447
00:42:23.855 --> 00:42:42.060
But so to to my point is I went on a little bit of tangent here. It's really important to be on spec because what we wanna see is as many wallets as possible to be able to send to silent payments. Yeah. Otherwise, it's not really that useful of a tool. Like, that's the hard part of bootstrapping something like this. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's that's the part where, like,

448
00:42:42.520 --> 00:42:50.860
every wallet should support sending the silent payments today. That part is not is not complex. It doesn't involve any of the sync trade offs. You don't turn on a special server.

449
00:42:51.255 --> 00:42:58.875
That part's very straightforward, and I would love to see every wallet support sending because that starts this, like, unstoppable snowball of adoption

450
00:42:59.494 --> 00:43:06.900
where if anyone can send to it, then people start to demand receiving to it because they see how well it works. They see how how user how great the user experience is.

451
00:43:07.539 --> 00:43:15.619
That's that's the the first step. And, like, that's where, like, like, you mentioned in the beginning with Sabi Wallet. A few other wallets have implemented sending support. I think BlueWallet as well,

452
00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:18.359
has sending support to silent payment addresses.

453
00:43:18.660 --> 00:43:22.119
And that's a really good start. But like you mentioned, like, if Ross used

454
00:43:22.535 --> 00:43:25.275
a silent payments address and not a static Bitcoin address,

455
00:43:26.055 --> 00:43:35.015
basically, the only, like, basically, the only people who could pay them I know, like, BlueWallet has it and we saw BlueWallet has it. I've never heard of anybody using it. You're talking, like, cake wallets, 500,000

456
00:43:35.015 --> 00:43:40.820
users, and that's it. And a lot of our user narrow people, they're not Bitcoin people. That's changing, but

457
00:43:41.120 --> 00:43:48.340
you're greatly limiting who can actually pay you. So that's the main downside for now, but that should change that should change very quickly.

458
00:43:49.655 --> 00:43:58.235
So Nutanix is saying that 353 is the human readable DNS payment instructions. 352 is the silent payment BIP. Yep. I'm ashamed.

459
00:43:58.935 --> 00:44:01.720
I do. I didn't hold Are you go are you my BIP numbers.

460
00:44:02.099 --> 00:44:04.740
Are you are you going to support 353?

461
00:44:04.740 --> 00:44:14.660
We already do. Yeah. That's So what does that mean? What is that? Is that like a username? Do I have, like, a username that could be paid or something? Yeah. So we support it on the sending side right now.

462
00:44:15.140 --> 00:44:17.845
We're still trying to figure out the best thing to do on the receive side.

463
00:44:19.265 --> 00:44:26.645
But on the sending side, we absolutely do. So, like, I have a I have a guide for people to set up their own BIP three fifty three username on my blog,

464
00:44:27.265 --> 00:44:40.425
and there's an example. But you gotta self host it. Okay there. Well, you don't just self host anything, but it's it's just a DNS entry. So it's very simple. You just need to go to your domain registrar and create the DNS entry in a specific way.

465
00:44:42.025 --> 00:44:48.205
But, yeah, right now, we we do support sending for that only to silent payments technically because we're not a lightning wallet yet.

466
00:44:48.505 --> 00:44:52.845
So you can't do the bolt 12 side of that. But the best way to use bit three fifty three and

467
00:44:53.210 --> 00:44:58.269
one of the reasons why I say satellite payments is such a good user experience improvement is that you can do things like

468
00:44:58.809 --> 00:45:00.970
tips at a odel.xyz

469
00:45:00.970 --> 00:45:04.109
with only a DNS entry, and you can receive payments

470
00:45:04.410 --> 00:45:07.715
via lightning and on chain that are privacy preserving.

471
00:45:08.175 --> 00:45:24.560
And that is A simple text string. You don't you don't need any server code or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a that's a I mean, that's just a huge user experience breakthrough, and that's something that enables wallets to do usernames in a way that's actually privacy preserving rather than people just, like, sticking a static Bitcoin address there.

472
00:45:25.340 --> 00:45:32.160
Right. Yeah. Exactly what you just said it, but Nutanix also said it. Like, I could do matt@odel.xyz.

473
00:45:32.335 --> 00:45:35.075
Mhmm. And then also, like, I could put my bulk 12,

474
00:45:35.455 --> 00:45:41.315
which is also supposed to is just a simple text string, and then I can receive lightning payments or on chain payments.

475
00:45:41.615 --> 00:45:42.355
No server.

476
00:45:44.095 --> 00:45:44.995
I you know,

477
00:45:48.210 --> 00:45:49.490
I one step at a time.

478
00:45:50.050 --> 00:45:51.830
You'd have to be a cake user, unfortunately.

479
00:45:52.210 --> 00:45:56.310
But I we can get you on board. We can get you set up with bit $3.53.

480
00:45:56.850 --> 00:46:01.110
Dude, like, finally, like, we have some level of kind of frictionless

481
00:46:02.184 --> 00:46:03.944
donations with Zaps. And,

482
00:46:04.505 --> 00:46:07.085
it's all just and like I was saying earlier, like, the

483
00:46:08.345 --> 00:46:10.285
I use my own node, and then

484
00:46:10.825 --> 00:46:12.765
I don't have liquidity. And there's

485
00:46:13.224 --> 00:46:17.005
we'll figure out Bold 12. We need more wallet support on Bold twelve first.

486
00:46:17.369 --> 00:46:21.390
Yeah. And I'm laser focused on that in the back end and in the background

487
00:46:21.930 --> 00:46:34.525
Mhmm. Between OpenSats and ten thirty one to try and make that more of a reality. Oh, yeah. But, yes, it will happen. I'm pretty excited about it. Okay. Before we move to page join, actually, because this seems more relevant to the topic,

488
00:46:35.385 --> 00:46:37.885
you have a feature that you rolled out called BirdPay

489
00:46:39.305 --> 00:46:39.805
Yeah.

490
00:46:40.185 --> 00:46:45.840
Which is kind of like the grog version of BIP three fifty three. Do you wanna explain what that is?

491
00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:53.700
Yeah. Yeah. So so BirdPay is one of many ways that you can pay someone using a username or a domain, something like that.

492
00:46:54.160 --> 00:47:02.605
Like, we support BIP three fifty three three fifty three. Like I said, we support open alias and open alias v two, which are, like, multi crypto versions of bit three fifty three, basically.

493
00:47:02.984 --> 00:47:07.645
But BirdPay was basically us saying, like, how easy can we make it to have

494
00:47:08.345 --> 00:47:11.805
as little external dependency as possible for someone to get paid at a username?

495
00:47:12.905 --> 00:47:13.405
And

496
00:47:13.780 --> 00:47:19.000
a brilliant person on the team, who actually don't know who came up with the idea, it might have been Vic. He probably was Vic because he loves Twitter.

497
00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:26.520
Was if you just put an address in your Twitter bio or your pinned tweet, we can easily grab that via an a via the API.

498
00:47:27.165 --> 00:47:36.225
And so you can do things like just enter asset for privacy when you go to send a transaction, and it'll auto populate my Monero address. It just checks your x bio.

499
00:47:36.525 --> 00:47:38.465
Yeah. It's super, super simple.

500
00:47:38.925 --> 00:47:42.860
There's some cool things too that we were just talking about internally where, like, we can use the location

501
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:53.420
field that, like, no one who cares about privacy puts their location in. But you can put a domain in there, and then we can actually scrape that via the API. So you could, like, put a bit through three fifty three username

502
00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:54.460
in your

503
00:47:54.835 --> 00:47:58.135
Twitter profile as well, and enable support that way.

504
00:47:58.755 --> 00:48:10.530
But, yeah, it's it's really simple. Let's just paste an address into your bio or to your pinned tweet, and anyone can pay you anytime whether you're awake or not in a privacy preserving way when you're using silent payments or Monero,

505
00:48:11.470 --> 00:48:14.210
or Bolt 12 once we have lightning support as well.

506
00:48:14.910 --> 00:48:23.425
Yeah. It's it sounds so simple, but it's, like, it's magical when you actually use it. And it's what the future of Bitcoin usernames should be. Like, our our world right

507
00:48:23.725 --> 00:48:26.305
now of copying and pasting addresses, verifying addresses,

508
00:48:27.565 --> 00:48:41.160
all this garbage is, like, this this has to die for for there to be much more usage of people actually paying each other in Bitcoin. Because people are so used to cash tags. They're used to usernames. They're used to Right. Emails or phone numbers for Venmo, PayPal, etcetera.

509
00:48:41.700 --> 00:48:56.585
If we get there, that user experience looks so much better. And now because of silent payments of Bolt 12, we can actually get there without sacrificing privacy, which is, like, incredible. We need we need every wallet leaning into this and making this the norm because it really is, like, a 10 x to user experience.

510
00:48:57.765 --> 00:49:03.990
Yeah. I mean, so you obviously have the trade off of being dependent on the x API, and you have man in the middle risk if

511
00:49:04.470 --> 00:49:08.630
Elon decides to swap out your silent payment address. Address. Yeah. My second

512
00:49:09.510 --> 00:49:23.435
from the platform. But but in practice, it actually works really well, and that's actually a really clever it was a clever little hack when I saw it. It is. It is. It's a really easy way to do it. Obviously, Nostra has something similar because it's part of your profile itself. I mean, yeah, that's the ideal. For when

513
00:49:24.155 --> 00:49:27.994
I mean, we can get into a Nostra conversation later in the show. But,

514
00:49:29.515 --> 00:49:34.339
in that situation, it would be actually be signed, and it it wouldn't require permission.

515
00:49:34.799 --> 00:49:40.500
You wouldn't have to pay for that. Whoever has your private key, which is hopefully you. Yeah. Well, it was signed by someone.

516
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:50.415
It'll be Someone. Better better than unsigned. Okay. We'll have that conversation later. Yeah. And also, you mentioned you're planning on lightning support. How are you thinking about that?

517
00:49:51.115 --> 00:49:53.915
Yeah. I mean, that's been a tricky one. So,

518
00:49:55.115 --> 00:49:58.815
when I started at Cake, actually, we had just launched a public beta for lightning.

519
00:49:59.435 --> 00:50:00.335
And Okay.

520
00:50:01.690 --> 00:50:14.190
I killed it. It's like the first thing I did when I I joined Cake was, like, I just I wasn't happy. No one internally was happy with what the user experience was like, with how many bugs bugs there were and issues we were running into.

521
00:50:15.065 --> 00:50:17.884
So, like, one of the first things I did was just axe our lightning integration,

522
00:50:18.265 --> 00:50:23.805
so we could start fresh. So if you if you wanted lightning and cake before this and it hasn't happened, you could definitely blame me.

523
00:50:24.664 --> 00:50:25.884
But I just like,

524
00:50:26.184 --> 00:50:27.404
when it comes to lightning,

525
00:50:28.220 --> 00:50:32.000
if anyone's followed me for a while, heard me talk. Like, I know that I've mentioned this before, but

526
00:50:32.380 --> 00:50:33.440
it's just incredibly

527
00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:45.205
difficult to do a good user experience that does not sacrifice self custody. And lightning has gotten better in some ways for sure, but there's basically two wallets right now doing good self custodial lightning, and that's Zeus and Phoenix.

528
00:50:45.665 --> 00:50:52.645
Yep. The vast majority have pivoted into giving up custody to the liquid federation or just giving up custody entirely to a single entity

529
00:50:52.945 --> 00:50:58.190
in order to give you a good UX. And that does give you a great user experience. Like, we you use Aqua Wallet or,

530
00:50:58.810 --> 00:51:02.430
Bull Bitcoin or any of these that use liquid under the hood for for Lightning.

531
00:51:02.810 --> 00:51:15.835
It feels great because it's the same thing as Moon. You're using a chain, and you're keeping your funds on chain, and you're just swapping into and out of Lightning when you need to. But, obviously, Liquid is much lower fees and has better privacy than on chain Bitcoin.

532
00:51:16.295 --> 00:51:18.795
So you sacrifice custody, but you get a good user experience.

533
00:51:19.175 --> 00:51:20.075
And I'm just

534
00:51:20.695 --> 00:51:21.195
like,

535
00:51:21.575 --> 00:51:41.704
even though that's the trend and I know that's the easy road, I just I'm not comfortable with that. Like, the the base level of everything we've ever done within Cake Wallet from a wallet perspective is self custodial. We haven't sacrificed on that. I know we could debate some of these cryptocurrencies. Self custody means a little bit less when they're less decentralized. But There's no such thing as self custody nano. But anyway, just kidding.

536
00:51:42.244 --> 00:51:44.185
Kind of. Kind of. You have the seed phrase.

537
00:51:44.565 --> 00:51:45.685
You have the seed phrase.

538
00:51:46.565 --> 00:51:52.410
But I didn't wanna sacrifice on the self custody bar. Like, I don't wanna go the liquid route even though they're seed backed up.

539
00:51:52.970 --> 00:52:00.109
And I don't I also don't wanna sacrifice on the the the user experience side. Like, we could go self custodial lightning, but it's just not

540
00:52:00.730 --> 00:52:04.670
like, it's just not there unless we were to dedicate the vast majority of the team's time

541
00:52:05.325 --> 00:52:06.625
for a very long time

542
00:52:07.005 --> 00:52:22.059
in order to get that done. And, like like it or not, we don't just do lightning. We're not just a lightning wallet. Like, the things that we're pushing the most on right now are Bitcoin on chain things. They're not even lightning things. So I also didn't wanna make it so that we couldn't ship anything else because we're spending so much time on lightning

543
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:28.780
when, unfortunately, it's a very it's gonna be a very small percentage of our users. And But what about, like, what about, like, moon setup?

544
00:52:30.155 --> 00:52:35.215
I mean, it would it would work. We could we could ship that very quickly. Like, it would work for now.

545
00:52:35.595 --> 00:52:36.095
But

546
00:52:36.475 --> 00:52:46.849
when the fees go up, if the fees ever go back up But that but I never under but I never understood this argument. It's like, if it if it's already an on chain wallet, right, you're already dealing with on chain fees.

547
00:52:47.790 --> 00:52:52.450
Mhmm. I think, ultimately, what the user wants is just to be able to be able to pay a Lightning invoice

548
00:52:52.829 --> 00:52:59.650
on demand. And and you're already a swap wallet. Right? It's like you're already doing swaps left and right. It's the main business model.

549
00:53:00.605 --> 00:53:12.865
Yeah. I mean If I wanna pay a lightning invoice, have some additional privacy benefits on the sender side from it, why not just do a swap and do it? Boom. Done. It's definitely it's doable. I mean, the main problem is

550
00:53:13.165 --> 00:53:14.944
it only works when fees are low.

551
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:17.820
Yeah. So, I mean, even now, like,

552
00:53:18.600 --> 00:53:28.220
it's 5 sat per v byte right now, but Bitcoin's at a hundred thousand dollars. Like, it that's a lot more money that you're spending in fees than it was when it was five sat per v byte and Bitcoin was taken.

553
00:53:28.795 --> 00:53:43.135
You're kinda just asking for bust a bunch of customer service issues. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, like, that that would be the easy approach, and, like, that's why the liquid model works so well is because it is the same approach as Moon. It's just liquid instead. But I think, like, for me, the most interesting thing

554
00:53:44.200 --> 00:53:49.340
right now is ARC. So, like, I've been talking heavily with ARC labs teams and the second team.

555
00:53:50.040 --> 00:53:53.980
I've also talked at length with the Spark team. We did an early, like, closed,

556
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.425
testing group with them, and we're one of the ones that they included in that, which is very kind.

557
00:53:59.465 --> 00:54:02.925
And I like, I think that's the the best middle ground.

558
00:54:03.545 --> 00:54:05.245
I, like, I do wanna be clear.

559
00:54:05.545 --> 00:54:12.365
Arc and Spark are not trustless, but they're trust minimized. Yeah. Specifically, Arc has much better trust assumptions than Spark does.

560
00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:14.800
And so in the, like,

561
00:54:15.500 --> 00:54:23.520
vast majority of cases, it is trustless. Obviously, there's some very small caveats with Arc, but that's a much better set of trade offs to me than going to liquid.

562
00:54:24.540 --> 00:54:33.175
But it also means things things just aren't ready yet. Like, our arc's not not ready yet, and there's a lot to be seen on how arc will play out from a liquidity perspective. And

563
00:54:33.635 --> 00:54:38.535
there's a lot still up in the air, but that's that's currently what we're looking at. Like, lightning is still top of our radar.

564
00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:45.059
I would love to get it out by the end of the year, but it's just I don't wanna sacrifice self custody. I don't wanna sacrifice user experience.

565
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:50.740
So I wanna make sure that we can do it in a way that that fits with our ideals, but also doesn't eat up all of our dev's time.

566
00:54:51.185 --> 00:54:57.125
Oh, yeah. We don't have to dive too deep there. You obviously want lightning support, and you wanna do it in a in a good way. Yeah.

567
00:54:59.905 --> 00:55:01.605
Yeah. That makes sense to me.

568
00:55:01.905 --> 00:55:06.805
I I mean, Phoenix is so it's interesting when you if your first principles is Moon.

569
00:55:07.170 --> 00:55:11.349
Right? It's like, okay. So you have Moon Wallet, and then, like, Aqua Wallet is

570
00:55:11.890 --> 00:55:23.595
Moon Wallet, but with liquid at rest instead of on chain Bitcoin at rest. And then Phoenix is his Moon Wallet, but in the opposite direction where it's lightning at rest, and then you do a swap you do a swap for,

571
00:55:24.075 --> 00:55:25.135
on chain payments.

572
00:55:25.435 --> 00:55:32.255
You go in the opposite direction. That's the cool thing with Phoenix. It's a splice out now. Yeah. You splice. Yeah. So But originally, it was a swap.

573
00:55:32.555 --> 00:55:33.690
Yeah. But yeah.

574
00:55:34.650 --> 00:55:38.270
No. Actually, the current Phoenix setup is great. There is

575
00:55:39.609 --> 00:55:42.750
some privacy and permission issues there. Yes.

576
00:55:43.130 --> 00:55:53.295
But I actually quite love how they have have it set up now, and it's not too bad of a trade off. Like, if the on chain payments, you're basically just paying whatever the on chain fee currently is,

577
00:55:54.635 --> 00:55:56.095
to send an on chain payment.

578
00:55:56.395 --> 00:56:15.740
Yeah. I don't think I don't know how those guys ship what they do. They're they're brilliant. Like, it's awesome to see them work and then them to be Well, no. The way they do it is Like, Like, they don't go publicly. They're not speaking at conferences. There's, like, shipping awesome easy to use stuff. It's really cool. But they also just have, like, blinders on and, like, don't really care about, like, interoperability and stuff. It's just, like, they have their

579
00:56:16.545 --> 00:56:20.724
stack. They ship their stack. They control the whole vertical stack. They have the node,

580
00:56:21.025 --> 00:56:25.365
the client, everything, and they just fucking ship. Then there's, like, no debates.

581
00:56:25.665 --> 00:56:30.260
It's just like we're doing the thing. We're gonna provide the best user experience. I appreciate it. Pay

582
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:33.700
join. You guys recently had to pay join.

583
00:56:35.600 --> 00:56:36.740
I'll just do a quick

584
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:38.260
overview

585
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:43.860
of the beautiful aspect of pay join. With pay join, usually with with a regular Bitcoin transaction,

586
00:56:44.475 --> 00:56:46.815
we have the common input ownership heuristic

587
00:56:47.435 --> 00:56:51.375
where all inputs are assumed to be owned by the same person.

588
00:56:51.915 --> 00:56:54.815
So to our previous, we were using Ross as an example.

589
00:56:55.355 --> 00:56:57.055
If Ross includes multiple

590
00:56:57.940 --> 00:56:58.440
inputs,

591
00:56:59.380 --> 00:57:04.600
multiple previous transactions in a new transaction, you can assume everything on that input side

592
00:57:05.060 --> 00:57:08.600
is all owned by him, and you can combine them together with pay join.

593
00:57:10.180 --> 00:57:12.600
The receiver is actually providing an input,

594
00:57:13.395 --> 00:57:20.295
so that it breaks that heuristic that all the inputs on the input side you have the input side and the output side of a transaction. All the

595
00:57:21.155 --> 00:57:24.215
all the inputs aren't owned by the same person.

596
00:57:24.515 --> 00:57:29.599
You don't know which ones are the receivers and which ones are the senders. Now the biggest trade off there,

597
00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:34.400
historically, has been that both people need to be online. Mhmm.

598
00:57:35.660 --> 00:57:36.960
How are you guys handling

599
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:38.400
that situation?

600
00:57:38.700 --> 00:57:40.160
Like, if I wanna pay you

601
00:57:40.940 --> 00:57:41.839
and you're sleeping

602
00:57:43.015 --> 00:57:49.435
and I wanna pay with Page one, how does that work? Yeah. So that's where it comes down to Page one v one versus Page one v two.

603
00:57:49.735 --> 00:57:55.515
So Page one v one was, like you said, both parties had to be online the entire time throughout the actual

604
00:57:55.830 --> 00:57:57.530
transaction for it to work properly.

605
00:57:57.830 --> 00:58:06.170
Because, essentially, with page one, like you said, since you're combining inputs, both parties have to sign that transaction and sign off on it before it can be broadcast. So you need to have some sort of collaboration.

606
00:58:06.790 --> 00:58:11.450
That's why it seems like there's basically zero page one v one adoption even though

607
00:58:11.805 --> 00:58:12.305
transactionally,

608
00:58:12.765 --> 00:58:24.464
it's really cool tech. From user experience perspective, it basically meant only a merchant running something like BTC pay server could accept pay joins because only someone like that could have a server online all the time

609
00:58:24.765 --> 00:58:32.099
that also had keys hot ready. Like, there there were two stringent of requirements for page one v one for it to gain broad acceptance.

610
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:41.315
And especially Or, like, if you were well, like, samurai was like you were in person. Yeah. It's like if you're in person, you both have your wallets out. You can do it. Which they did. I mean, they did add,

611
00:58:41.875 --> 00:58:46.454
doing stowaways over over Soroban, which was, like, their tour, like, network Right.

612
00:58:46.755 --> 00:59:00.089
For a little while there. But you still had to tell your receiver, like, yo, buddy. Come online. Let's let's make the payment. Yeah. I know me and me and you, I think, tried a few times. I did it with Catan a few times. It was like it would it would always have problems, but it was

613
00:59:00.790 --> 00:59:09.405
Well, we we did it because we could. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We it was worth But it wasn't gonna really scale. No. And that and that was the main problem with v one. V two, which is the latest,

614
00:59:09.805 --> 00:59:12.065
proposal that was just merged in a few days ago

615
00:59:12.445 --> 00:59:14.305
by Dan Gould, is transactionally

616
00:59:14.605 --> 00:59:24.385
the same. Like, on chain, it's gonna look the same as a page on v one, which is the same as any Bitcoin transaction, which is the beauty of of page join is that it has no on chain footprint. It doesn't stand out.

617
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:34.020
But what's improved in PageJoin v two is that it moved from the synchronous model where you're connected to the other person the entire time or else the transaction just fails

618
00:59:34.640 --> 00:59:35.140
or,

619
00:59:35.520 --> 00:59:38.180
to now, it's an asynchronous model. So now

620
00:59:38.575 --> 00:59:47.395
the two parties use a directory server in the middle. Neither of them need to run it. It doesn't matter who runs it because it's entirely trustless. The directory server, all they see is encrypted blobs,

621
00:59:47.775 --> 00:59:59.609
and network privacy is provided for both parties using a blue base HTTP. So even if you're not using a VPN or Tor, you are getting near perfect network privacy from the directory server, and that's from the other peer as well.

622
01:00:00.390 --> 01:00:05.770
But you use that directory server. So, like, when I send you a page on URI or QR code,

623
01:00:06.405 --> 01:00:21.490
you're getting the location on that directory server where to look for my payload, which is the, like, pre signed information that I need to give to you. So I can give you that. I can go offline. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I'm there at that time or not. You'll get that payload. You add your inputs, and you sign the transaction,

624
01:00:21.870 --> 01:00:27.250
and you send it back to the directory server. And then whenever I come back online, I can sign that and send it off to the network.

625
01:00:28.990 --> 01:00:34.655
So it still does require at some point both parties to be online for the transaction to eventually be sent.

626
01:00:35.035 --> 01:00:43.055
But if one of us goes online even for an extended period or goes offline even for an extended period, we can still make that transaction happen.

627
01:00:43.595 --> 01:00:47.055
And in practice, when you're usually making a payment like this,

628
01:00:47.820 --> 01:00:57.760
the asynchronous nature just makes it so that little, like, network flips and stuff don't ruin your transaction, which is what would happen in the past. So in person is obviously gonna be just perfect, essentially.

629
01:00:58.780 --> 01:01:02.205
Not being in person is is pretty damn seamless as well.

630
01:01:02.825 --> 01:01:05.645
And there's some some cool things too where I think we can

631
01:01:05.945 --> 01:01:10.365
make it even better. So, like, right now, technically, you do have to come online at some point during that process.

632
01:01:10.665 --> 01:01:21.700
But, like, something I thought about is those who are okay with the trade offs of having their private keys go hot at memory on their phone, which is a very low risk. Like, I to me, I would be fine with the trade off if someone is pretty pretty hardcore.

633
01:01:22.240 --> 01:01:30.395
You can use the background service that we use for syncing silent payments, syncing Monero, etcetera, to look for and sign any page one transactions that are waiting for you on the directory.

634
01:01:30.695 --> 01:01:33.115
So that way, like, if you've just posted the QR

635
01:01:33.575 --> 01:01:36.875
and someone paid it, your wallet would immediately be signing that in the background,

636
01:01:37.335 --> 01:01:38.635
using that background service.

637
01:01:38.935 --> 01:01:40.075
So that that's another

638
01:01:40.695 --> 01:01:43.755
way that you can do that to even further improve the UX.

639
01:01:44.215 --> 01:01:44.955
But it's

640
01:01:45.260 --> 01:01:52.960
it's pretty sweet. And, honestly, it just it works so so much better than v one. We've done tons of testing internally, done tons of payments for demos.

641
01:01:53.339 --> 01:02:03.005
It's obviously not foolproof. And, I mean, we're the second wallet ever implemented, and there's been a lot of, just normal growing pains as the the dev kit improves and

642
01:02:03.385 --> 01:02:08.525
as in integrations improve. But the guys over at, PayJoin dev kit, Dan Gould,

643
01:02:08.905 --> 01:02:26.350
SpaceBear, others are just doing fantastic work. And the really, the beautiful thing of all this being false is that every time a wallet implements it, it gets easier for every wallet to implement it after that. We did a ton of work with the PDK team that made it well, make it easier for others. The Bold Bitcoin team is working closely with the PDK team to make it easier for us and others.

644
01:02:26.650 --> 01:02:41.785
And that stuff, again, just snowballs where it's just gonna be quite trivial to support pay join. And I think we can legitimately get to a place where the default in many really any Cypherpunk wallet will be a pay join for Bitcoin because it's it has essentially no user experience overhead.

645
01:02:44.140 --> 01:02:44.720
That's awesome.

646
01:02:45.180 --> 01:02:45.980
Yeah. I had,

647
01:02:46.619 --> 01:02:48.960
Dan Gould, from PayJoin DevKit

648
01:02:49.340 --> 01:02:50.240
on dispatch,

649
01:02:51.260 --> 01:02:51.920
I guess,

650
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:53.920
six episodes ago.

651
01:02:55.820 --> 01:02:57.600
Episode one fifty four.

652
01:02:57.980 --> 01:03:07.155
So Freaks, if you haven't listened to it, go listen to it. Bull Bitcoin is the other one that has implemented it. Right? You and then, also, I think with Sabi, you can

653
01:03:07.855 --> 01:03:13.075
you can pay too, but they don't have the Not patron be received. I don't think.

654
01:03:13.710 --> 01:03:21.810
No. I haven't seen anything about it. I mean, it's Okay. It's certainly possible, but I feel like I consume any mention of PayJoiner or sign up payments these days. Was

655
01:03:22.430 --> 01:03:29.605
wasabi, you can definitely send to silent payments. I don't think you can receive to silent payments. So maybe they don't have to send to Adrian Viewpoint

656
01:03:30.065 --> 01:03:30.725
as well

657
01:03:31.505 --> 01:03:35.685
with Wasabi. I think they've had that for a while, but I'll have to look into it.

658
01:03:36.065 --> 01:03:38.244
Lot of lot of moving pieces.

659
01:03:40.160 --> 01:03:41.060
That's awesome.

660
01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:46.180
I mean, what I was talking to Dan about this. Like,

661
01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:50.740
the dream is that we get like, Bull Bitcoin does it as an exchange,

662
01:03:52.455 --> 01:03:57.275
getting exchanges to do it. So, like, you can imagine a situation where a strike, for instance,

663
01:03:59.175 --> 01:04:01.115
on on a strike deposit

664
01:04:01.495 --> 01:04:05.575
or strike withdrawal, they support it. They actually get massive

665
01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:08.460
they can get massive transaction fee savings.

666
01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:11.900
So they have a strong incentive to do it

667
01:04:12.200 --> 01:04:13.420
from a fee perspective.

668
01:04:14.680 --> 01:04:17.980
And then, obviously, like, those services are KYC.

669
01:04:20.615 --> 01:04:31.994
You're not you're maybe not getting as much of a privacy benefit as possible. But still, from an external observer point of view, you're clouding the waters in terms of probability analysis that someone who's just

670
01:04:32.535 --> 01:04:33.915
just looking at the chain,

671
01:04:34.250 --> 01:04:39.309
it is hurting their probability analysis regardless. So I I think it's still a clear net net win,

672
01:04:40.250 --> 01:04:49.309
to see that kinda and they're obviously doing massive volumes. Right? Like, so And and that's one of the It really does move. Yeah. It's one of the things I love about PayJoin is that there actually is financial incentive

673
01:04:50.495 --> 01:04:52.915
for, like, third parties, especially exchanges,

674
01:04:53.295 --> 01:05:07.320
swap providers, etcetera, to implement PayJoin. Like, that's one of the downsides of selling payments is there's no financial incentive to do it. And that's true of most things in Bitcoin. Like, there's there's not a lot of privacy tech specifically that has a financial incentive there. But that financial incentive,

675
01:05:08.420 --> 01:05:20.654
is really key because, obviously, it will help just broader adoption and integration. Like, I I don't know if Bull Bitcoin would have done it if they couldn't also do it as an exchange and have it as a fee saving feature. Because I know, like, their long term goal is that will be the way

676
01:05:20.954 --> 01:05:39.630
you withdraw. It'll always be a pay join. You'll be using the Real Bitcoin app. You'll withdraw to there, and it will be a pay join because both are gonna be compatible and and speaking the same language. And I would love to see that happen everywhere in this. And it helps everyone's privacy, not just the people participating. That's the other really cool thing with pay join is it breaks that key heuristic and it helps everyone's privacy.

677
01:05:41.050 --> 01:05:44.730
And the thing too is, like, exchanges like Strike have already

678
01:05:46.155 --> 01:05:47.375
they've already normalized

679
01:05:47.755 --> 01:05:48.255
the

680
01:05:48.875 --> 01:05:56.415
pay a higher fee if you want your withdrawal done right away. But if you're willing to wait up to twenty four hours, it's free. And people

681
01:05:56.955 --> 01:06:03.960
gladly choose that option. Usually, they're not waiting twenty four hours. They're waiting four hours or five hours for a big batch transaction to happen.

682
01:06:04.260 --> 01:06:06.920
But it's already been normalized in the process.

683
01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:10.359
And so then you enter PayJoin into that situation,

684
01:06:11.059 --> 01:06:16.684
and you actually have this really cool setup where they're waiting four hours for a big batch transaction.

685
01:06:17.144 --> 01:06:18.924
And maybe people that are depositing

686
01:06:19.305 --> 01:06:21.005
are basically just paying

687
01:06:21.464 --> 01:06:28.525
they're paying directly in a batch payment transaction to people that are withdrawing at the same time. So, like, I've never even hits the hot wallet of

688
01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:30.460
an exchange like Strike.

689
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:32.700
It's just like wins across the board.

690
01:06:33.240 --> 01:06:35.020
So I think we could see cautiously

691
01:06:36.359 --> 01:06:38.299
optimistic, but I think we can see,

692
01:06:39.319 --> 01:07:00.610
significant adoption there in the in the near term. But what we need for that to actually work in practice is easy to use mobile logs that support it. So it's a big it's a big deal that you guys added. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a a no brainer for us. We had one of our best devs, Constantine, working on it and killing it with the the PDK folks. It was it was a ton of fun. Win, win strike page one b two.

693
01:07:03.070 --> 01:07:05.490
Let's put the put the pressure on. Put the pressure on.

694
01:07:06.670 --> 01:07:07.170
We,

695
01:07:09.565 --> 01:07:10.705
no pressure needed.

696
01:07:13.085 --> 01:07:16.225
I've I've, like I said, I I think it's gonna happen.

697
01:07:18.285 --> 01:07:24.305
I think it's gonna happen. I think it would be awesome. I think it would just it's just a like I said, I think it's just a win across the board.

698
01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:25.780
It went quick.

699
01:07:26.240 --> 01:07:47.195
And then I think once you see an exchange like strike do it, all you need is, like, one or two of the big guys do it, and then everyone, I think, falls in line. Oh, no. Definitely. Yeah. That that first mover of pressure is really huge. Yeah. I'm hoping that will that will kick others in high gear when a a big exchange like Stripe does do it. One quick thing that I wanted to mention on PayJoin that I a lot of people get confused by.

700
01:07:47.575 --> 01:07:50.795
You can't receive a PayJoin until you have Bitcoin in your wallet.

701
01:07:52.190 --> 01:07:59.730
And Yeah. It pops an error This is very right now. This is very self explanatory when when you remember that you have to contribute an input to a pay join,

702
01:08:00.109 --> 01:08:10.015
but this like, people on our team would forget this. People that I've done it with will forget this. And so we we we actually added some stuff to the actual, like, UI to make sure that it's clear to people

703
01:08:10.395 --> 01:08:10.875
why

704
01:08:11.355 --> 01:08:13.375
Well, the current error message doesn't

705
01:08:13.675 --> 01:08:18.175
the current error message doesn't say that. Error, but you'll see on the receive screen, it'll just say,

706
01:08:18.555 --> 01:08:19.375
you might not be on the latest version. But on the latest version, we just

707
01:08:20.969 --> 01:08:51.050
version, we just released on, like, Tuesday or Wednesday of last week. You'll see page one unavailable instead of page one enabled, and it'll have a little tool tip that'll tell you why. Because until you have funds you can actually spend, you can't be the receiver in a transaction, which, again, is a little weird when you're used to Bitcoin, where on chain, you normally don't need like, there's no liquidity requirements or something. But, obviously, if you don't have any inputs to contribute, you can't be a part of a pay join. But one of the beautiful things of pay join is it just falls back to a regular on chain payment. And part of that QR or,

708
01:08:51.990 --> 01:09:03.585
thing that you copy and paste will just be a regular on chain Bitcoin address. So you can always use It's a regular no matter what. It just won't be a pay join until you have funds you can contribute. So just an important little thing to keep in mind.

709
01:09:05.405 --> 01:09:06.625
Yeah. That makes sense.

710
01:09:07.085 --> 01:09:08.864
Yeah. That's just a messaging issue.

711
01:09:09.805 --> 01:09:11.185
I mean, talking about

712
01:09:13.480 --> 01:09:14.540
having the benefit

713
01:09:15.480 --> 01:09:17.500
of cost savings with privacy,

714
01:09:19.240 --> 01:09:21.020
what is your opinion on Cashew?

715
01:09:25.575 --> 01:09:26.715
I love the privacy,

716
01:09:28.215 --> 01:09:29.675
from the Mint operator.

717
01:09:30.695 --> 01:09:33.035
I think that there's not enough discussion about the

718
01:09:34.375 --> 01:09:40.160
privacy issues when depositing to a Mint or withdrawing from a Mint, especially small mints. Why?

719
01:09:40.540 --> 01:09:41.040
Because

720
01:09:42.460 --> 01:09:57.735
your anonymity set of Bitcoin going into or out of a mint can be quite small, especially if mints aren't growing But it's lightning. Sorry. I mean, on to me. But, yeah, if it's lightning only, I guess that's true. Yeah. If it's Lightning. Like, so yeah. Cashew specifically is Lightning only,

721
01:09:59.235 --> 01:10:03.575
which is a bigger UX issue because that means they need to have a Lightning wallet to begin with.

722
01:10:04.435 --> 01:10:10.110
Yeah. I know it's a good But I get it. And and so that that was Cali's that was Cali's

723
01:10:10.810 --> 01:10:15.630
hard line stance that he didn't want the Mint operator to even have the liability of knowing

724
01:10:16.090 --> 01:10:17.230
on chain history.

725
01:10:17.850 --> 01:10:18.350
Because

726
01:10:19.385 --> 01:10:21.325
Lightning does have pretty good privacy

727
01:10:21.785 --> 01:10:27.725
for sender where the receiver doesn't know which UTXO front of the transaction. No. No. You're definitely right. Yeah. I mean, that

728
01:10:28.265 --> 01:10:33.805
that's definitely a good You still you still technically have that issue if it's a really small mint.

729
01:10:34.520 --> 01:10:45.260
Right? If someone Depending on who you're connected. You can still do timing analysis. A lot depends on if there's multiple hops between you and the mint or if you're paying directly from something like Phoenix. You could have essentially zero privacy,

730
01:10:46.360 --> 01:10:52.775
on the sender side. But, normally normally, that's true. You would have pretty good privacy because of lightning. But, I mean,

731
01:10:53.715 --> 01:10:57.895
to me, like, there's two main things that stand out. One is I just

732
01:10:58.435 --> 01:11:02.050
self custody is just a hard line for me. Like, I think the only

733
01:11:02.350 --> 01:11:03.170
the only

734
01:11:03.470 --> 01:11:03.970
reasonable

735
01:11:04.910 --> 01:11:07.970
use case for something like, cashew or,

736
01:11:08.510 --> 01:11:15.410
fetamins for the average person, not for, like, the kind of village custody thing that I know, Obi and others talk about. But,

737
01:11:15.885 --> 01:11:18.225
like, the average Bitcoiner today,

738
01:11:18.845 --> 01:11:23.345
the only use case for something like this is amounts that are literally too small

739
01:11:23.725 --> 01:11:25.505
to publish on chain.

740
01:11:25.965 --> 01:11:37.360
So I'm talking, like, below the dust limit or below the dust limit plus whatever the current fee rate is. And that amount makes sense because you literally cannot self custody less than that. Like, you cannot custody one sat on chain.

741
01:11:37.660 --> 01:11:38.720
You cannot custody

742
01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:45.280
probably we're probably about, like, I don't know, 600 sat 700 sat would be really the limit

743
01:11:45.825 --> 01:11:52.065
of what you could self custody today because you couldn't move that amount on chain without it being below the dust limit, with fees. That is, like

744
01:11:52.705 --> 01:11:53.925
anything above that,

745
01:11:54.305 --> 01:12:03.929
I think we cannot compromise on. I think we have to make sure that people can self custody at one way or another. And that's where, like, things like ARC and others come into play. But

746
01:12:04.230 --> 01:12:04.730
yeah.

747
01:12:05.510 --> 01:12:06.010
So

748
01:12:07.030 --> 01:12:07.530
the,

749
01:12:08.550 --> 01:12:11.770
If you say the term graduated wallets, I'm gonna lose my mind.

750
01:12:13.270 --> 01:12:14.090
First off,

751
01:12:14.985 --> 01:12:19.725
the term village custody is a new one that I actually I like it.

752
01:12:20.105 --> 01:12:22.765
I knew exactly what you meant, which is, like,

753
01:12:23.145 --> 01:12:27.165
Obi talks about this with Fedimint where, like, the elders in the village

754
01:12:28.100 --> 01:12:30.360
are, like, the community banking or whatever.

755
01:12:31.540 --> 01:12:38.840
There might be a use case there at least with Fedimint. I will say that Fedimint has been slow to iterate, but recently has started to get some

756
01:12:39.220 --> 01:12:43.080
real traction, which is good to see. The Fedimint open source project, not Fedi,

757
01:12:43.465 --> 01:12:47.565
the for profit business. These are two separate things. Fedi builds on top of Fedimint.

758
01:12:48.505 --> 01:12:55.005
But the Fedimint open source project has started to make some really significant developments in terms of making it easier to

759
01:12:55.550 --> 01:12:59.550
to run a Fedimint, which is, I think, one of the key aspects here is that you need

760
01:13:00.350 --> 01:13:04.610
it needs to be easy to as you have to reduce the friction to

761
01:13:05.390 --> 01:13:06.850
spin up one of these

762
01:13:07.230 --> 01:13:07.730
instances

763
01:13:08.030 --> 01:13:09.170
privately because,

764
01:13:09.865 --> 01:13:15.645
obviously, the custodian has a lot of liability on their hands. And you it kind of becomes like a whack a mole game.

765
01:13:16.185 --> 01:13:25.680
And then I guess this the second piece you said was graduated custody, which is actually where I was going. I had never heard the term graduated custody. So Zeus, I had I've included this on.

766
01:13:26.400 --> 01:13:28.100
And you mentioned it as two

767
01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:30.580
of the good self custody wallets.

768
01:13:31.040 --> 01:13:36.660
Well, I mean, it like, I put Zeus in I mean, Phoenix is awesome. It's it's own little kind of

769
01:13:37.280 --> 01:13:41.055
niche in terms of spending mobile lightning first kind of lot.

770
01:13:41.535 --> 01:13:43.955
But I would put Zeus in a category of, like,

771
01:13:44.335 --> 01:13:51.795
there's, like, Sparrow wallet and Zeus. And, like, I heavily rely on them. And then just, like, no one else even comes close in terms of

772
01:13:52.415 --> 01:13:55.635
functionality with Sparrow being unchained. And

773
01:13:56.610 --> 01:14:00.870
and, yeah, power user friendly. But but Kaludis was like

774
01:14:01.410 --> 01:14:04.230
of Zeus, he was a hardliner, self custody

775
01:14:04.530 --> 01:14:05.270
all the way.

776
01:14:06.370 --> 01:14:07.670
And he added Cashew,

777
01:14:08.450 --> 01:14:09.190
and that's

778
01:14:09.885 --> 01:14:12.704
for for two reasons. Right? Well, first of all,

779
01:14:13.244 --> 01:14:15.905
for the small amounts. Right? We're onboarding someone.

780
01:14:16.445 --> 01:14:21.105
And, I mean, we could talk about Nasr later, but you're onboarding someone to receive payments.

781
01:14:21.910 --> 01:14:22.410
And

782
01:14:22.870 --> 01:14:25.610
at the end of the day, like, if they have to pay an on chain fee,

783
01:14:26.230 --> 01:14:33.450
in the beginning, it's it's cost prohibitive. It's cost prohibitive. And, also, they can make significant privacy mistakes in the beginning,

784
01:14:34.390 --> 01:14:35.690
if they don't really understand,

785
01:14:36.895 --> 01:14:39.875
you know, what outputs are and what their chain footprint is.

786
01:14:40.574 --> 01:14:42.275
So receiving right in the beginning,

787
01:14:42.815 --> 01:14:46.514
custodial is nice. And if they're gonna do custodial, it probably should

788
01:14:47.054 --> 01:14:48.755
be Cashew because it's

789
01:14:49.360 --> 01:14:58.340
incredibly private and offers strong privacy guarantees and also gives you offline payments and gives you programmable payments. You can lock things to public key, stuff like that.

790
01:14:59.200 --> 01:15:03.300
So it gives you if you're gonna do custody, it gives you a lot of benefits.

791
01:15:04.855 --> 01:15:07.115
And then second of all, it means that

792
01:15:07.575 --> 01:15:10.635
you basically have an interoperable custody protocol

793
01:15:11.495 --> 01:15:19.820
where Zeus doesn't have to be the custodian. Right? Like, Evan doesn't wanna be the custodian. Cakewalk doesn't wanna be custodian. He can just plug and play into a wider net of

794
01:15:20.199 --> 01:15:23.340
other people running the custodians and taking on the liability.

795
01:15:24.280 --> 01:15:27.560
And then the second piece is, like, he built into his flow

796
01:15:28.645 --> 01:15:34.665
I think it's, like, touch you're touching the stove while it's hot. Right? Like, it heats up. And as it gets higher and higher,

797
01:15:35.125 --> 01:15:36.665
he pushes you into

798
01:15:37.125 --> 01:15:48.869
a self custody sovereign lightning channel. Right? And, obviously, he believes in user sovereignty, so he doesn't auto push you even though you can set that in settings. But it's like, you should really please open the lightning channel and

799
01:15:49.570 --> 01:15:50.550
and move these,

800
01:15:51.889 --> 01:15:52.710
funds in.

801
01:15:53.385 --> 01:15:57.885
Now I there could be something here, I mean, with just on chain only.

802
01:15:58.344 --> 01:16:00.284
Like, you could get to a point where,

803
01:16:01.465 --> 01:16:04.045
you know, you hit 50,000 sats and

804
01:16:04.824 --> 01:16:06.605
you sweep it into an on chain

805
01:16:07.320 --> 01:16:15.179
output and then the user's on chain, they're in self custody. Like, I've is that model that horrible? Like, what? They're at, like, $50?

806
01:16:16.040 --> 01:16:21.179
They lose $50 in a mint? Like, is it the end of the world before they get to an on chain

807
01:16:21.535 --> 01:16:25.715
output? And what they would get significant privacy gains in that situation.

808
01:16:26.735 --> 01:16:32.195
I don't know if that's the worst trade off in the world. Like, that would kinda be a cool feature on on QM. I think

809
01:16:34.175 --> 01:16:35.075
so to me,

810
01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:40.380
the main thing or the main issue, I guess, I would say I have with Cashew is

811
01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:41.420
twofold.

812
01:16:41.880 --> 01:17:00.675
One, it diverts resources away from self custodial tools. Now, obviously, I'm not here to tell people Okay. Who like, what they can work on. Like, obviously, I don't want that to be taken as telling any devs working on Cashew that they have to or should be working on anything else, but it diverts resources away from self custodial tooling, which I think is a downside.

813
01:17:01.775 --> 01:17:03.155
The other one is,

814
01:17:04.650 --> 01:17:14.810
and I'll I'll get to the graduated wallet concept, which is kind of the term that's being thrown around for this this type of thing that Zeus is doing and and others are gonna start doing soon. But the other main problem that I have with

815
01:17:15.945 --> 01:17:24.045
I like the term. I just wanna say it. It It works. Yeah. It works. I don't know if it's Steve Lee. I think It explains what it it explains what it is. But, anyway, continue.

816
01:17:24.985 --> 01:17:29.005
Yeah. My other issue with cashew is just, like, the the incentives are just

817
01:17:29.980 --> 01:17:36.159
very broken from the ground up. And I know I'm gonna say some things that are gonna piss some people off, but I'm just gonna roll with it.

818
01:17:37.580 --> 01:17:38.080
The

819
01:17:38.619 --> 01:17:39.520
the real

820
01:17:39.980 --> 01:17:44.960
the only two options you really have in your Mint operator are either they are someone you know and trust,

821
01:17:47.235 --> 01:17:53.335
which there's not gonna be many people running cash payments. But okay. You you know someone, they're a public entity, and they run a cash payment.

822
01:17:53.955 --> 01:17:54.695
That's great.

823
01:17:54.995 --> 01:17:57.255
But running a cash payment is a custodian,

824
01:17:57.715 --> 01:17:58.215
and

825
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:03.620
I'm saying the quiet part out loud, but, like, if samurai wallet can be taken down for making money off

826
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:05.860
privacy tools but not taking custody,

827
01:18:06.240 --> 01:18:15.275
a custodian a custodial mint that's providing privacy is just, like, low hanging fruit. That's a it's a terrifying situation to be in. And I I wish that was not the case.

828
01:18:15.735 --> 01:18:17.435
Like, obviously, very clearly,

829
01:18:17.815 --> 01:18:24.075
it's idiotic that that is the case of where we're at today, but that's an extremely dangerous place to be in. So okay.

830
01:18:24.380 --> 01:18:34.320
We don't do trusted people. We don't do public entities running our cashier events because we like those public entities not being in jail. So instead, we do fully non events. They're people we don't know.

831
01:18:34.940 --> 01:18:39.280
We just trust them with the sets, and maybe there's a trust system,

832
01:18:39.864 --> 01:18:42.364
like a reputation system that gets built out or something.

833
01:18:43.304 --> 01:18:47.804
But we trust them with the sats, and we hope they don't rug us, which is fine

834
01:18:48.264 --> 01:18:52.744
until that grows to a certain size. And then why as in anon

835
01:18:53.300 --> 01:19:02.280
unless you're just hardcore cypherpunk, bro. Why as an anon are you not just rug pulling for $2.03 Bitcoin? Because you're collecting Well, you collect fees.

836
01:19:02.740 --> 01:19:04.520
You can still there's a there's

837
01:19:04.900 --> 01:19:06.040
there's an argument.

838
01:19:06.340 --> 01:19:07.960
So, like, right now,

839
01:19:09.304 --> 01:19:11.245
you know, one of the longest standing

840
01:19:12.264 --> 01:19:13.565
cashew mints is MiniBits.

841
01:19:14.425 --> 01:19:17.804
I don't know who runs the MiniBits cashew mint,

842
01:19:20.105 --> 01:19:21.885
but they haven't rugged yet.

843
01:19:25.890 --> 01:19:34.710
Now I think there's an argument that if they continue to not rug, they stand to make more in fees. And I think you could probably charge a decent amount in fees. Like, I think

844
01:19:35.090 --> 01:19:35.830
it's, like,

845
01:19:36.130 --> 01:19:49.395
one, two, three percent in fees you could get away with probably. If you're long standing and ready a lot of fees. If if this stuff actually works, the competition on fees is gonna try But you have to remember that these are for trans but but these are for transactions

846
01:19:49.855 --> 01:19:55.370
that you wouldn't receive otherwise. But people already don't like Phoenix's. Like, it's what? Point 4%

847
01:19:55.510 --> 01:19:57.290
on the send side and, like,

848
01:19:58.230 --> 01:20:03.210
something a little bit more, I think, on the send. I mean, but what are aqua wallets fees are ridiculous.

849
01:20:03.830 --> 01:20:07.530
Oh, I guess, because you have them. When you, like, mix in the swaps and everything?

850
01:20:07.925 --> 01:20:17.545
It's like Yeah. I mean, that that is the, like, that's the only incentive really for an Anan not to rug is that the long term incentives have to be better for him to keep running it,

851
01:20:17.925 --> 01:20:24.059
to take on the risk, but to collect the fees. So fees would have to be at a pretty high state, I think, to incentivize that.

852
01:20:24.599 --> 01:20:25.099
Yeah.

853
01:20:25.719 --> 01:20:36.815
I mean, there would also be some kind of idealized For sure. For sure. And I like, I know that that that's probably why people are running the mens that they're running right now. Like, I think the only No one's running them for a few years. Exactly.

854
01:20:37.515 --> 01:20:38.735
Exactly. And I

855
01:20:39.035 --> 01:20:41.855
I would be hesitant to think that they'll ever be able to charge

856
01:20:42.315 --> 01:20:44.415
enough fees to incentivize that because,

857
01:20:45.035 --> 01:20:57.640
like, then just use a custodian doesn't charge fees at that point. If you'd if it would have to be ideological for you to be using the cash you meant. But that's where, like, I think those incentives are kind of broken, where either it's a an entity we know and trust, but now they're

858
01:20:58.740 --> 01:21:08.205
liable for a lot of things that they shouldn't be liable for, but they just are if we're honest. Or it's that they are not meant. You have to hope that the financial incentives are good enough that you don't lose money. And that's where, like,

859
01:21:08.585 --> 01:21:10.364
this idea of graduated wallets

860
01:21:11.145 --> 01:21:12.205
is reasonable.

861
01:21:12.824 --> 01:21:17.784
I still disagree with how far I think it's gonna be taken and is being taken, but it's reasonable because if you have

862
01:21:18.470 --> 01:21:20.170
you're not just a Cashew wallet,

863
01:21:20.950 --> 01:21:25.130
but you're a Cashew and a lightning and an on chain wallet,

864
01:21:25.510 --> 01:21:31.370
you can do things that actively protect the user. And I think we would you would have to be very aggressive to do this correctly

865
01:21:31.910 --> 01:21:33.850
so that users don't get burned. Because,

866
01:21:34.175 --> 01:21:34.675
like,

867
01:21:36.095 --> 01:21:37.635
users like what what's easy.

868
01:21:38.015 --> 01:21:42.995
Necessarily, this graduated well concept is pushing them from best UX to worst UX over time.

869
01:21:43.695 --> 01:21:44.195
And

870
01:21:44.735 --> 01:21:50.670
those Right. Like, obviously, the the UX of good lightning, especially with something like Arc or Spark can be pretty solid.

871
01:21:51.210 --> 01:21:54.830
The UX of Unchained can also be quite straightforward, especially in low fee environments.

872
01:21:55.290 --> 01:22:03.195
But it's still gonna be drastically worse than a custodial ecashment because it's just you're not doing anything. You're just signing a message. Like, it's it can't get easier than that.

873
01:22:03.994 --> 01:22:21.050
So, like, that that concept, I think, will be interesting to see how it plays out because then you're you're trusting that users will actually be okay with the worst UX, and some will move with it. And that's where I think, like, that's the only reasonable way to use something like Cashew is where you do support the other methods. You are

874
01:22:21.430 --> 01:22:32.345
pushing users, even automatically moving funds. I mean, you're like they're the you're like they're using a custodian anyways. I don't know why they would be upset that you moved their money from a custodian into their own self custody

875
01:22:32.805 --> 01:22:45.225
for them, especially if you were smart about it and you, like, looked at when on chain fees were very low and you automatically did it even when it was when they were sleeping or something. Maybe you force them in the onboarding to choose the amounts that they will set as the limits

876
01:22:45.810 --> 01:22:54.070
to their, like, their cashew balance or something. I think, like, there's ways where it can be interesting, but there's also just there's such a low limit,

877
01:22:54.450 --> 01:22:58.150
especially in relatively low fee environments of what could be self custody

878
01:22:59.074 --> 01:23:02.935
that why then wouldn't we just use an all in one solution like ARC, for instance,

879
01:23:03.395 --> 01:23:13.815
where amounts that you can't exit on chain unilaterally, like below the dust limit or something like that, you you couldn't you can't actually self custody, which is something that I think a lot of it So what do you mean?

880
01:23:15.930 --> 01:23:16.489
I mean

881
01:23:17.690 --> 01:23:19.630
okay. I respect all of these arguments.

882
01:23:21.130 --> 01:23:25.390
I think you could and I talked to this about with Evan too. I mean, you could

883
01:23:25.850 --> 01:23:28.190
also to reduce risk, you could do, like,

884
01:23:29.725 --> 01:23:35.585
you could do group submits. Right? So you can push the user into, like, four custodians. So, like, the Titanic model,

885
01:23:36.205 --> 01:23:40.625
which I just love the irony because the Titanic suck. But the idea that if one

886
01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:46.780
if one compartment filled up with water, the boat doesn't sink. Right? You just lose one compartment.

887
01:23:47.480 --> 01:23:48.540
Now in the Titanic,

888
01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:49.980
multiple apartments

889
01:23:50.280 --> 01:23:51.020
filled up.

890
01:23:51.320 --> 01:23:52.140
Yeah. Well,

891
01:23:52.520 --> 01:23:56.860
there's a banking conspiracy involved. It's it's it's more complicated than that. But anyway,

892
01:23:58.255 --> 01:24:02.355
you have that. But okay. So but if your argument is that

893
01:24:02.894 --> 01:24:05.875
a graduated wallet makes more sense with something like ARC,

894
01:24:06.494 --> 01:24:08.355
that's a little bit of a different argument.

895
01:24:08.974 --> 01:24:11.074
Now I personally have been in Bitcoin

896
01:24:12.330 --> 01:24:15.630
long enough that I just unless I can actually

897
01:24:17.210 --> 01:24:19.630
use something and see how it works in practice

898
01:24:20.570 --> 01:24:28.045
like, I'm not reading your white paper. Like, let me put it that way. Like like, I have a family now. Like, life's busy. I'm not reading your white paper.

899
01:24:29.545 --> 01:24:31.165
I guess Arc has released

900
01:24:31.865 --> 01:24:40.409
some kind of is are they are they Mainnet now? Like, are they actually Technically, they have released a few Mainnet demos. So it definitely works on Mainnet. I've used it. Others have.

901
01:24:40.889 --> 01:24:41.489
But it's

902
01:24:41.929 --> 01:24:43.389
they don't have, like, a public

903
01:24:43.929 --> 01:24:44.429
ongoing

904
01:24:44.809 --> 01:24:48.010
Mainnet beta. I think they're aiming for that. I'm this But is

905
01:24:49.449 --> 01:24:56.985
but so is that your response? Your response is we're we're not gonna spend time doing cash you because we'll do a graduated wallet with ARC instead.

906
01:24:57.365 --> 01:25:14.460
And then so you start on ARC, and then, ideally, you move to on chain at some point. I think that's the best potential solution. But you are making a great point that I mean, if you've been in Bitcoin this long, I'm the same way. I just assume something's not happening until it actually does. So, like, I I also don't wanna bet the farm on Arc because

907
01:25:14.920 --> 01:25:15.420
maybe

908
01:25:16.040 --> 01:25:27.715
the plan doesn't really work as well as we think. Maybe the liquidity requirements for Arc service providers are too extensive. Like, it certainly could fail, but but we're also not at a place right now where we're just, like, dying for

909
01:25:30.015 --> 01:25:31.235
small amount custodians.

910
01:25:31.695 --> 01:25:32.835
Like, you can

911
01:25:33.215 --> 01:25:35.875
you can transact on chain for quite low fees.

912
01:25:36.495 --> 01:25:38.035
I won't let you concern

913
01:25:39.560 --> 01:25:45.020
yeah. But the concern I mean, you said this with Moon when I said the Moon model. Like, the concern is that

914
01:25:45.560 --> 01:25:55.100
you're not making the decision for today. Like, if the fee like, if they're sitting in your wallet and then the fees go up, you can end up in a situation. And maybe the fees I

915
01:25:55.935 --> 01:25:58.595
I'm a strong believer that the fees are gonna go up.

916
01:25:59.455 --> 01:26:03.235
But it is like, I mean, we have men pull that space, like, on screen.

917
01:26:04.095 --> 01:26:06.995
Like, if the fees are gonna go up, they haven't gone up yet.

918
01:26:07.960 --> 01:26:17.659
So maybe that's a re maybe we shouldn't be building in that direction, but I I think that should brings me to my original point of problems I have with Cashew

919
01:26:18.040 --> 01:26:20.059
is Cashew is

920
01:26:20.679 --> 01:26:22.460
a really great coping mechanism,

921
01:26:23.045 --> 01:26:24.105
but it's not a solution.

922
01:26:25.364 --> 01:26:28.025
It doesn't solve any of these problems. It doesn't build

923
01:26:28.724 --> 01:26:31.224
tools that are better in adversarial adversarial

924
01:26:31.525 --> 01:26:32.025
environments.

925
01:26:32.804 --> 01:26:39.050
It kind of copes with current problems that exist in Bitcoin today, And it it deals with them today, but it doesn't

926
01:26:39.430 --> 01:26:41.370
solve them in ways that could better

927
01:26:42.070 --> 01:26:52.824
improve things in the future, if that makes sense. I feel like that I worded that very weirdly. But, essentially, all of the time investments we're putting into Cashew, which to me is kind of like a coping mechanism with the failures of lightning

928
01:26:53.204 --> 01:26:56.664
and the failures of self custodial self custodial UX and lightning.

929
01:26:57.364 --> 01:27:12.280
The time and resources we put into that is time and resources that isn't going into something like an arc or something like a spark or something like No. But covenants or who knows what. Like, you could name whatever it is. But that that time could be going into that, but instead, it's going to something that becomes this coping mechanism

930
01:27:12.740 --> 01:27:13.800
that works today,

931
01:27:14.100 --> 01:27:14.600
maybe.

932
01:27:15.380 --> 01:27:25.075
But if we enter another adversarial environment definitely works today. But well, as long as you don't get robbed or your meant doesn't mess up their DNS and lose all their money or something like that. But

933
01:27:25.855 --> 01:27:27.475
But then you lose $50.

934
01:27:28.175 --> 01:27:34.330
Yeah. But also for these people you're onboarding, if they're losing money, that's kinda bad UX as well.

935
01:27:36.230 --> 01:27:46.215
Look, you're a friend, so I'm gonna feel like a dick before I say this. But, like, you're also you support Nano. Right? So it's like you're onboarding them to Nano. So, like, I feel like you can't really

936
01:27:46.755 --> 01:27:51.954
I do not personally support Nano. Just just so we're clear, Cake Wallet does support Nano. But

937
01:27:53.954 --> 01:27:57.335
I feel like I feel like that argument the it's a little bit paternalistic.

938
01:27:57.770 --> 01:27:58.670
You know? Like, it

939
01:27:59.770 --> 01:28:09.070
does there are real benefits. And to me, like, it's it's more comparable to something like a bird pay. Right? Which is you're operating in the world we're in today,

940
01:28:09.690 --> 01:28:14.155
and you're providing a useless feature, a a useful feature

941
01:28:15.255 --> 01:28:20.395
to people today that they are in demand of, which is to be able to easily accept payments

942
01:28:21.255 --> 01:28:21.755
without

943
01:28:22.055 --> 01:28:23.755
having an on chain fee burden,

944
01:28:24.960 --> 01:28:27.700
without having any complexity of channel operations,

945
01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:29.220
or

946
01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:34.740
you just you just have a professional routing operator that is, you know, effectively running in a mint.

947
01:28:35.200 --> 01:28:37.300
You have programmable offline payments,

948
01:28:38.415 --> 01:28:40.755
which, like, when you start to talk about, like,

949
01:28:41.215 --> 01:28:44.755
having the type of tap to pay, Apple Pay functionality,

950
01:28:45.375 --> 01:28:56.140
you, you know, the ideal situation is to be able to do that offline because if you know, people don't realize, like, part of the reason why offline, but how often are you offline? You can't do it offline.

951
01:28:56.760 --> 01:28:57.980
It's twenty twenty five.

952
01:28:58.280 --> 01:28:58.680
I mean, I

953
01:28:59.640 --> 01:29:10.395
well, I I think, like, if you're in the if you're in Costa Rica, for instance, like, Apple Pay works amazing. And the one of the reasons it works amazing is because the payer doesn't have to be online. That's good

954
01:29:10.775 --> 01:29:11.914
point. And I think people

955
01:29:12.375 --> 01:29:14.474
skip that. Like, if you're sitting there for

956
01:29:15.014 --> 01:29:17.835
even ten seconds, like, the UX is miserable.

957
01:29:19.220 --> 01:29:20.200
Yeah. That's a good point.

958
01:29:21.700 --> 01:29:22.200
So

959
01:29:23.700 --> 01:29:31.560
and then, of course, you have the village custody, but I'm not gonna pretend like the village custody is, like, a real it's it it it's happening. Supposedly, there are villages,

960
01:29:32.405 --> 01:29:35.545
but that's not I'm not gonna sit here and do that argument anyway.

961
01:29:36.005 --> 01:29:45.300
I think you have reasonable concerns. I think you're thinking about it the right way. Yeah. I know like, I know I I feel like old man yelling at clouds talking about this stuff because it feels like,

962
01:29:45.780 --> 01:29:48.199
I don't know, I feel like sometimes I'm too hardcore with

963
01:29:48.659 --> 01:29:53.000
this, but I it also just feels like a line that is very dangerous to cross from a

964
01:29:53.780 --> 01:29:55.320
a Bitcoin culture perspective.

965
01:29:55.780 --> 01:30:04.534
And I feel like once we cross it, it gets very hard to uncross it. Well, we've already crossed. I know. I know. I know. That's why I'm I, like, am pretty,

966
01:30:06.435 --> 01:30:12.375
like, bold about the things I say with this because I like, once people get that taste of the custodial user experience,

967
01:30:13.130 --> 01:30:18.510
it's very hard to move away from that. It's very hard to move away from that. And we've seen that in lightning.

968
01:30:19.369 --> 01:30:27.310
We've seen that in people being totally fine with using exchanges for custody, and I'm worried that this will be that same type of, like,

969
01:30:28.075 --> 01:30:31.455
gateway drug to being fine with custodial solutions for a lot of Bitcoiners.

970
01:30:32.155 --> 01:30:32.655
But

971
01:30:33.355 --> 01:30:35.215
I also understand the practical

972
01:30:35.595 --> 01:30:41.055
concerns of, like, I want something that I can use today that's simple and easy and provides good privacy, and

973
01:30:41.370 --> 01:30:51.230
Cashew is that. So, like, I totally understand both sides, but I I do feel like I'm, like, more on the hardcore side. I do I've did have one more thought. And I I don't know. I'm sure someone's thought through this before. But,

974
01:30:51.690 --> 01:30:55.630
like, the only thing that I really would want to

975
01:30:56.325 --> 01:30:58.425
make it easier to onboard people is

976
01:30:58.725 --> 01:31:04.825
like, when I onboard someone like, I onboarded a couple people to Phoenix this week just so they could buy steak and shake, while we were in Vegas.

977
01:31:05.605 --> 01:31:06.105
And,

978
01:31:06.965 --> 01:31:12.280
like, as a Bitcoiner who wants to onboard more people, I would be more than happy to just pay the

979
01:31:13.140 --> 01:31:15.320
channel open fee for the end user.

980
01:31:16.340 --> 01:31:32.335
Like, a way But you could do that. Just send them more I know. But it's it's like I wanted to send them $25, and then they end up getting, like, 21 or something. Like, I have to, like, I have to, like, manually compute how much is the on chain fee gonna be, how much is the panel. Just send them $50. Just just keep sending more money. There you go.

981
01:31:32.875 --> 01:31:36.975
That is an approach. That is an approach. But I feel like even if just, like, every lightning wallet

982
01:31:37.755 --> 01:31:44.869
had, like, a an onboarding mode or something where, like, you hit a switch on their screen and then I mean, Phoenix could just put the fee

983
01:31:45.650 --> 01:31:51.010
Phoenix could just put the on chain fee in the invoice. Yeah. That that would be the idea. That suit. Right? I I don't know if you actually

984
01:31:51.809 --> 01:31:54.309
Like, the user could put $25

985
01:31:54.369 --> 01:31:57.915
in their invoice, and then Phoenix could really charge $26

986
01:31:57.915 --> 01:32:07.615
in the invoice. Like, that would be my my ideal. Because to me, that would really solve both worlds. I feel like, hopefully, most Bitcoiners out there who are onboarding people would be fine with parting with some stats

987
01:32:07.995 --> 01:32:16.820
to get them up and running with a good self custodial UX. And, like, that's something I would be more than happy to do, but isn't really supported by any wallets out there that I know of of, like, expecting

988
01:32:17.200 --> 01:32:18.100
the the payer

989
01:32:18.720 --> 01:32:19.380
the payer?

990
01:32:20.400 --> 01:32:33.745
I don't know. I can always get those backwards. The payer to front the cost for the channel open so that user doesn't have to deal with those initial self custody costs. And then they just make payments, and they're on the lighting network, and they don't feel that I mean,

991
01:32:35.405 --> 01:32:40.289
the real controversial statement is when I onboard someone to Phoenix Wallet,

992
01:32:40.909 --> 01:32:41.889
like my nanny,

993
01:32:43.389 --> 01:32:43.889
I

994
01:32:44.429 --> 01:32:49.730
have them I first of all, I send them a larger amount. Right? So, like, I send them a hundred plus dollars.

995
01:32:50.235 --> 01:32:52.415
So, like, you get away from those constraints.

996
01:32:53.915 --> 01:32:57.215
And then the second thing is I enable cloud backups.

997
01:32:57.675 --> 01:32:58.175
Yeah.

998
01:32:59.594 --> 01:33:05.355
And I just pop them to the cloud. It's like, yes. Like, Apple and the NSA can, like, rug them. Yeah. But

999
01:33:06.180 --> 01:33:08.280
for most people, that threat model is fine. Right.

1000
01:33:09.780 --> 01:33:10.920
At least in the beginning.

1001
01:33:11.540 --> 01:33:28.614
Right? And we're comparing it to something like Cashew or comparing it to something like Primal's Custodial Wallet or Strike's Custodial Wallet. Like, those trade offs are weird. The caveat I'll say is if if done right I don't know how Phoenix does their cloud backups right now. But if done right, you can do it to iCloud keychain or Android auto backup, which are both end and encrypted.

1002
01:33:29.074 --> 01:33:36.090
So Google or Apple could not rug you unless, obviously, they have Yeah. I don't know how to where and how it works. But if you do it right,

1003
01:33:36.630 --> 01:33:46.409
you can do it in a way where only the user can recover funds or someone who hacks their account, obviously, which is that's the main downside to me. But that's something that, like, the foundation guys have done with Envoy

1004
01:33:46.815 --> 01:33:48.995
is for just the hot wallet component, obviously.

1005
01:33:49.375 --> 01:33:55.955
You can do it in a way where you would just rely on your Apple or Google account being secure. And I think that's actually a very normal But my understanding

1006
01:33:57.215 --> 01:34:00.115
with Apple iCloud backups, like, you have to optionally

1007
01:34:00.909 --> 01:34:13.090
separately in your Apple iCloud settings, go create end to end encrypted and, like, write down the seed like, there's a different it's not a seed phrase. It's, like, numbers So that's the distinction. ICloud or iCloud Drive, whatever they call the drive portion,

1008
01:34:13.445 --> 01:34:17.705
isn't intended encrypted by default, but can be if you use advanced data protection.

1009
01:34:18.405 --> 01:34:24.825
But iCloud keychain is always intended encrypted by default. That's where your passwords is where your password Well, what is it encrypted by?

1010
01:34:25.365 --> 01:34:30.500
What is the secret? Your Apple login. So anyone who can get into your Apple account can get it.

1011
01:34:31.920 --> 01:34:32.420
Okay.

1012
01:34:33.520 --> 01:34:34.260
Got it.

1013
01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:41.460
I will say that Phoenix does a really good job that it scares the shit out of the user when they enable all cloud backups.

1014
01:34:41.955 --> 01:34:44.375
It's like Apple and the NSA will bug you.

1015
01:34:45.075 --> 01:34:48.195
And, like, you have to press okay, and then it goes through which I

1016
01:34:49.155 --> 01:34:52.695
like, if you're gonna do it, like, I appreciate that aspect to it.

1017
01:34:55.650 --> 01:34:57.989
Okay. That was a lively discussion on

1018
01:34:58.370 --> 01:34:59.590
onboarding and custodial.

1019
01:35:00.050 --> 01:35:01.670
By the way, Steak and Shake,

1020
01:35:02.690 --> 01:35:06.450
the the buns have seed oils in them. The fries do too. And the fries still have

1021
01:35:07.175 --> 01:35:35.835
yeah. The fries come with seed oils. They just don't fry. Speaking of being rugged. They fry them. I didn't learn until we were I was standing in Steak and Shake's line, and then someone I was with was like, oh, by the way, the fries are initially fried in seed oils. And then they freeze them. And then they send them and then they fry them into the milk. Send them. Like, what? It's a scam. Everyone's a scammer. But at least it's a good you know, it's marketing, but at least that's a marketing thing now that people want to be seed oil free. That's true. That's true.

1022
01:35:36.295 --> 01:35:40.875
Slow slow and steady. We don't live in a vacuum and little benefits are

1023
01:35:41.495 --> 01:35:44.875
I see the purpose of saying Breeze has next cloud support.

1024
01:35:45.440 --> 01:35:48.900
I mean, that's great. But, like, if you're running a Nextcloud self hosted

1025
01:35:49.280 --> 01:35:52.900
instance, like, just use a seed phrase. As hardcore as they come at that point.

1026
01:35:54.000 --> 01:35:57.060
Like, I feel like you can use a seed phrase, but that's good.

1027
01:35:57.600 --> 01:35:59.699
I see Phoenix is extremely expensive.

1028
01:36:01.815 --> 01:36:03.114
Yeah. I mean, I think

1029
01:36:03.575 --> 01:36:08.395
I think the fees are kinda reasonable on Phoenix. I I get it. I understand it.

1030
01:36:09.735 --> 01:36:12.315
What else do we wanna talk about while I have you here?

1031
01:36:12.775 --> 01:36:14.170
You wanna talk about Nostr?

1032
01:36:14.550 --> 01:36:16.570
Why not? Piss off some more people.

1033
01:36:17.510 --> 01:36:18.410
It's my way.

1034
01:36:22.550 --> 01:36:23.290
So, I mean,

1035
01:36:23.590 --> 01:36:25.850
can we, can we at least get BirdPay

1036
01:36:26.555 --> 01:36:34.255
for Nostra? I think it already works. I need to double check, but the, I mean, the the main problem right now is we'd like, we talked about, we don't have lightning. So if you're just doing,

1037
01:36:34.715 --> 01:36:43.910
like, l n URL or something, obviously, that's not gonna work within cake. I think if you put a silent payment address in your Nostra profile, it does work or Monero address.

1038
01:36:45.650 --> 01:36:53.090
But what username would I type in? My nip five? Yeah. Your nip five should work. I guess your nip five as well. I'm I'm, like, 99%

1039
01:36:53.090 --> 01:36:56.195
sure this works today. I just don't use Nostra, so

1040
01:36:56.895 --> 01:37:00.994
I I haven't tested it in a long time. But I'm pretty sure that's what But so you're

1041
01:37:01.775 --> 01:37:09.955
you're a Nostra bear. Like, you're you're done with Nostra. It's a dead project to you. It's over. Before I answer that, I'm gonna I wanna interview you.

1042
01:37:10.830 --> 01:37:11.489
So you

1043
01:37:11.949 --> 01:37:13.170
you made the switch.

1044
01:37:13.790 --> 01:37:19.570
You cut all ties to Yes. The the modern world. Yes. You switched to to Nasr

1045
01:37:20.429 --> 01:37:24.290
and and burned your, however many hundred hundreds of thousands of followers.

1046
01:37:24.665 --> 01:37:26.825
What is that like? 250,000.

1047
01:37:26.825 --> 01:37:27.565
Real talk.

1048
01:37:28.105 --> 01:37:31.965
How has engagement been compared to what you're used to? Do you feel like it's been

1049
01:37:32.745 --> 01:37:41.250
good for your overall reach to the audience you want? Has it been bad? Like, I'm just kinda curious your thoughts on what that has been like. Because very few people have actually made the %

1050
01:37:41.250 --> 01:37:43.349
switch from Twitter to Noster.

1051
01:37:45.090 --> 01:37:48.230
There's a few of us. There's, like, there's Gigi has.

1052
01:37:49.090 --> 01:37:50.070
Pablo has.

1053
01:37:53.985 --> 01:37:56.565
I don't know of any other larger accounts. Company.

1054
01:37:57.185 --> 01:37:57.685
Obviously,

1055
01:37:57.985 --> 01:38:01.125
I think I was the largest account that did it or at least voluntarily

1056
01:38:01.425 --> 01:38:02.085
did it.

1057
01:38:03.905 --> 01:38:06.305
Like, I was at, like, probably about 250,000

1058
01:38:06.305 --> 01:38:11.440
followers. Like, at this point, I'd probably be at, like, 400,000 followers. Like, it was growing pretty fast.

1059
01:38:11.980 --> 01:38:14.080
Even without me posting, it was growing,

1060
01:38:15.260 --> 01:38:20.480
just from, like, the backlog of, like, ten years of proof of work on that closed platform.

1061
01:38:21.340 --> 01:38:23.920
I mean, it was strictly a horrible financial decision.

1062
01:38:24.645 --> 01:38:25.145
Like,

1063
01:38:25.605 --> 01:38:27.304
just really bad career wise.

1064
01:38:29.525 --> 01:38:34.585
It's definitely not it definitely it was not a positive for ten thirty one as a business.

1065
01:38:37.844 --> 01:38:39.145
It's good for the soul.

1066
01:38:39.870 --> 01:38:44.130
Okay. So it's weird. But Twitter's I won't I won't But but

1067
01:38:44.790 --> 01:38:45.290
but

1068
01:38:45.949 --> 01:38:46.449
financially,

1069
01:38:46.830 --> 01:38:47.330
definitely

1070
01:38:47.870 --> 01:38:48.770
was was

1071
01:38:49.790 --> 01:38:51.010
should've kept the account.

1072
01:38:54.275 --> 01:38:55.415
I do think

1073
01:38:57.955 --> 01:38:59.574
that it was good for my family.

1074
01:39:00.675 --> 01:39:02.114
Right? Like, I think I have

1075
01:39:03.074 --> 01:39:05.175
first of all, I never wanted to be an influencer.

1076
01:39:05.795 --> 01:39:07.315
Right? Like, I never I kinda

1077
01:39:08.110 --> 01:39:10.850
like, people think influence, like, Bitcoin

1078
01:39:11.870 --> 01:39:13.730
large accounts of Bitcoin are bad today.

1079
01:39:14.110 --> 01:39:16.290
Like, they were way worse in 2017,

1080
01:39:17.070 --> 01:39:17.730
I think.

1081
01:39:18.270 --> 01:39:21.730
I don't know. They've always been bad. Let me put it that way. They've always been bad.

1082
01:39:22.235 --> 01:39:24.735
And I felt I was young. I was

1083
01:39:25.355 --> 01:39:25.855
unmarried.

1084
01:39:26.395 --> 01:39:27.534
I didn't have a family.

1085
01:39:27.914 --> 01:39:28.815
I felt like

1086
01:39:29.355 --> 01:39:30.094
I could

1087
01:39:30.554 --> 01:39:34.735
improve the situation or I could add something of value to the discussion. Right?

1088
01:39:35.480 --> 01:39:36.380
And I slowly

1089
01:39:37.320 --> 01:39:39.020
hurt my own personal privacy,

1090
01:39:41.880 --> 01:39:43.340
and went into it.

1091
01:39:43.960 --> 01:39:46.920
And it it got to the point. And then so then I started

1092
01:39:48.215 --> 01:39:51.355
and I used it to bootstrap everything. Right? Like,

1093
01:39:51.815 --> 01:39:53.275
Twitter is where I bootstrapped

1094
01:39:54.135 --> 01:39:58.074
my whole network, all my friends, like, all my good friends I met through there.

1095
01:39:58.934 --> 01:40:05.400
It's where we bootstrapped OpenSats. It's where we bootstrapped 1031. It's where we bootstrapped Siddle dispatch and rapid all recap.

1096
01:40:07.620 --> 01:40:10.600
But we're I was getting to the point where it was like

1097
01:40:12.980 --> 01:40:16.120
like, a decision had to be made. Right? And

1098
01:40:18.985 --> 01:40:20.605
a decision had to be made.

1099
01:40:21.225 --> 01:40:23.485
And, like, I was getting to the point where

1100
01:40:26.185 --> 01:40:29.565
I was becoming kind of a niche celebrity. Right? Like, I was like,

1101
01:40:31.010 --> 01:40:34.310
I would go if I went to a conference, for instance,

1102
01:40:35.330 --> 01:40:42.310
like, I couldn't walk around, especially once money got involved. Like, once people thought they could get a check from ten thirty one or Open Stats, it was, like,

1103
01:40:43.465 --> 01:40:45.965
it was like every other conversation was

1104
01:40:46.745 --> 01:40:58.045
someone asking me for money. And the question really in the back of my head was, like, are they gonna ask it for an open source project, or are they gonna try and get funded through ten thirty one? It's like, which angle are they gonna get it from? And the only time I would get

1105
01:40:58.410 --> 01:41:03.630
ignored was if I was walking with either of the jacks. Like, if I was walking with Dorsey or if I was walking with Mallers,

1106
01:41:04.010 --> 01:41:06.590
they would the moths would go to that flame instead.

1107
01:41:07.290 --> 01:41:20.325
And, of course, like, there it's awesome. Like, I love the freaks and was like, there was a lot of love that was happening. Like, thank you so much. Like, you helped out my family so much, like, blah blah blah. But there was, like, also a bad bad element to it. Then there was, like

1108
01:41:21.665 --> 01:41:26.005
I mean, I remember, like, a month before I deleted, like, two months before I deleted,

1109
01:41:27.105 --> 01:41:31.830
I was in Costa Rica, and I was sitting at lunch in the middle of nowhere, Costa Rica.

1110
01:41:32.530 --> 01:41:38.630
And if you're listening to this right now, like, bless your heart. I appreciate you. But still, some random freak walked up,

1111
01:41:38.930 --> 01:41:46.265
interrupted our lunch, was like, Odell, so grateful for you. Thank you so much. We're in the middle of fucking nowhere, like, with my family.

1112
01:41:48.885 --> 01:41:49.385
So

1113
01:41:50.165 --> 01:41:56.105
I did come at it from, like, a point of view that I had nothing to lose and that I needed to lower my Profile.

1114
01:41:57.925 --> 01:41:59.225
My profile a bit.

1115
01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:02.860
And I didn't wanna do that by, like,

1116
01:42:03.480 --> 01:42:08.860
destroying my reputation, shilling a shit coin, like, again, taking one last rug pull out.

1117
01:42:09.960 --> 01:42:13.740
And instead, in this way, it could be a positive way. Like, if I could bootstrap,

1118
01:42:15.285 --> 01:42:17.785
if if me doing it could help bootstrap

1119
01:42:18.645 --> 01:42:23.145
something that I think needs to happen, which is digital comms is too important

1120
01:42:23.525 --> 01:42:26.025
to have in control of a proprietary

1121
01:42:26.725 --> 01:42:28.985
closed source big tech company,

1122
01:42:30.639 --> 01:42:34.579
let's do it. And I had so I I felt like I had nothing to lose.

1123
01:42:35.920 --> 01:42:48.565
I've definitely seen since then, like, from a financial perspective that there has been some negative consequences that maybe I should've waited a little bit longer. But then also at the same time, like, I was addicted. Right? And I've seen it happen to other people.

1124
01:42:50.225 --> 01:42:54.805
I mean, I'll use Dorsey as an example again. Like, Dorsey was Noster only for a bit,

1125
01:42:55.345 --> 01:42:56.885
but he had the account there.

1126
01:42:57.260 --> 01:43:15.405
And because he had the account, the stock price goes down, and he goes back to Twitter. You know? And he goes back goes back to Twitter and starts posting on there because you you can't you can't help yourself. I literally can't go back. Like, I if I did go back, I would have to create, like, a fresh account and start from zero or whatever and do the You you burn the boat. So it does

1127
01:43:15.784 --> 01:43:19.485
from a self control point of view, it helps. Now I do think,

1128
01:43:20.744 --> 01:43:22.364
it's gonna be a long grind.

1129
01:43:22.665 --> 01:43:24.525
I don't think Nasr is inevitable

1130
01:43:25.270 --> 01:43:33.690
by any means. I mean, I don't I still don't even think I think Bitcoin is more or less inevitable, but I don't think Bitcoin is free to money is inevitable. I think there's still a lot of work to be done.

1131
01:43:36.230 --> 01:43:37.130
But I I

1132
01:43:38.385 --> 01:43:38.965
I think

1133
01:43:39.344 --> 01:43:48.724
we need something like Nasr for so many reasons. And we need it from a permission point of view. We need it from a censorship point of view. And we need it from a verifiability

1134
01:43:49.105 --> 01:43:53.284
point of view. Like, the amount of AI slop and stuff we're gonna start to see

1135
01:43:53.720 --> 01:43:57.020
and, like, psy ops on a whole another level is crazy.

1136
01:43:58.200 --> 01:43:59.820
And to have that all happening,

1137
01:44:01.240 --> 01:44:03.420
you know, with puppet masters and

1138
01:44:03.880 --> 01:44:05.100
and and

1139
01:44:07.095 --> 01:44:11.755
unverify like, you don't you never know if you're shadowbanned or not. Right? We were talking about earlier on YouTube.

1140
01:44:12.535 --> 01:44:21.275
Like, I'm pretty sure I'm shadowbanned on YouTube. There's no way for me to verify it. Yeah. That must work. Like, there's I have no idea what's happening there. You you don't control your destiny.

1141
01:44:22.170 --> 01:44:26.590
So I think it's a noble cause. I mean, I think it's something that would benefit humanity.

1142
01:44:29.130 --> 01:44:34.350
And I think I probably only have so many more years in the public eye, so I'm gonna try and

1143
01:44:36.255 --> 01:44:41.555
I'm gonna try and throw as much weight behind it as possible is kind of the calculation. But, yes, to your answer,

1144
01:44:42.095 --> 01:44:45.315
if you're asking me as a friend if it's financially prudent,

1145
01:44:45.935 --> 01:44:49.020
for you to delete your ex account, I would say no. Yeah.

1146
01:44:49.420 --> 01:44:54.000
I would say I would say don't do that. Sense. And it makes I mean, like, I always knew, like, you

1147
01:44:54.460 --> 01:45:00.400
you knew there were consequences to deleting your Twitter, but, like, you you're Yep. You're that guy who actually has

1148
01:45:00.700 --> 01:45:08.435
scruples and actually has integrity and actually has, like, an ethos that wants to push this stuff forward. So, like, your willingness to do that was

1149
01:45:08.895 --> 01:45:20.090
crazy, honestly. Like, that that was a that was an immense move, and I think is something that has been a huge driver behind Dynastar so far, has been that you were willing to do that and brought so many people with you, and they're

1150
01:45:20.470 --> 01:45:22.650
spreading good content there as well. So I definitely

1151
01:45:23.190 --> 01:45:31.610
I definitely understand that. And, I mean, like like, when it comes to Nostr for me, like, I I agree on all of the human good stuff around it. Like, I definitely agree

1152
01:45:32.165 --> 01:45:35.785
we cannot rely on something like a Twitter as our,

1153
01:45:36.165 --> 01:45:40.985
like, place for social discourse. Like, the I mean, that that has been proven so many times

1154
01:45:41.364 --> 01:45:49.120
of how easy to manipulate it is, of how harmful social media as it is today is. Like, the the psychology of it is is very broken.

1155
01:45:49.660 --> 01:45:54.160
So I got I I I definitely echo that, and I I think Noster is

1156
01:45:55.180 --> 01:45:57.280
a is a good fallback. I think, like,

1157
01:45:57.740 --> 01:46:01.065
there are some things about how Noster is built that I think are not

1158
01:46:01.785 --> 01:46:03.245
great for social media,

1159
01:46:04.025 --> 01:46:11.005
and it provides a lot of value in other ways as a protocol. Like, again, that's where it can get a little confusing. It's like Nostr is a protocol.

1160
01:46:11.385 --> 01:46:24.740
Social media on Nostr is its own separate thing. And Nostar is a protocol is is very fascinating, especially just that it has this native understanding of key pairs that can be really useful for verification and other things. For social media, it's a little weird

1161
01:46:25.200 --> 01:46:29.220
mainly because of the privacy concerns that come into play with how you actually

1162
01:46:29.925 --> 01:46:31.145
transmit and get

1163
01:46:31.525 --> 01:46:33.945
post by other people within the social media network.

1164
01:46:34.805 --> 01:46:38.505
Yeah. But how are you gonna ever get rid of that? Like, that's just an Internet thing.

1165
01:46:38.805 --> 01:46:44.985
You mean, like, IP address leaks? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the main the main difference is that instead of having a

1166
01:46:45.530 --> 01:46:49.390
single known trusted third party, which is still a trusted third party, still problematic,

1167
01:46:49.850 --> 01:46:53.790
you have a lot more unknowns, especially when it comes to media hosting with the Nasr.

1168
01:46:54.170 --> 01:47:05.555
And there's a lot of But you could do that with you could you could you could do that with Nasr on you could if that's the trade off model you want, you can do that with Nasr while still embracing the interoperability

1169
01:47:05.935 --> 01:47:10.114
and giving people the choice of opting out and moving apps without losing their

1170
01:47:10.830 --> 01:47:17.570
their their network graph, their connections. Like, I mean, that's what we're doing with Primal, and it's controversial within Nasr.

1171
01:47:18.270 --> 01:47:20.050
Right? But we with Primal,

1172
01:47:20.429 --> 01:47:29.844
Primal's hosting a caching server, which you can think about, like, a super relay that's pulling all the notes from the relays. So when you're reading if I mean, look. 99% of people are lurkers.

1173
01:47:30.385 --> 01:47:33.284
When you're reading, you're not exposing your IP address to

1174
01:47:33.665 --> 01:47:36.085
different people's media servers or different people's

1175
01:47:36.465 --> 01:47:38.485
you're just trusting Prime. Now, obviously,

1176
01:47:39.420 --> 01:47:41.520
Primal is a trusted third party in that situation.

1177
01:47:41.900 --> 01:47:54.800
The but that that caching server is false. Anyone can run one. In the UI, we allow people to switch. You can obviously switch apps to a pure one. Now on the sending side, you still expose your IP address, but

1178
01:47:55.475 --> 01:47:57.735
we have a there's a toggle in

1179
01:47:58.035 --> 01:48:01.895
because we were talking to activists who trust the US government, they're, like,

1180
01:48:02.355 --> 01:48:03.655
anti US enemies.

1181
01:48:04.435 --> 01:48:07.095
They're, like, anti US enemies activists. Right?

1182
01:48:09.849 --> 01:48:25.594
It's like, so, like, they're fine with x. Right? Because they trust Elon, and they're fine with the US government knowing their information. But they don't want their government to know. And so there's a feature in primal where you can have us sit in between you and your broadcasts, and then you're not exposing your IP. Now

1183
01:48:25.895 --> 01:48:35.114
that offers a that's a censorship trade off because Primal can stop your post from going out. Right? But you can always toggle it off or you can switch apps. So you can build these things on top.

1184
01:48:35.800 --> 01:48:38.540
I think the biggest issue we have right now is,

1185
01:48:39.800 --> 01:48:40.300
like,

1186
01:48:40.680 --> 01:48:43.580
however you wanna solve it, key rotation, key security.

1187
01:48:44.600 --> 01:48:47.580
You know, your key gets compromised. You're you're screwed.

1188
01:48:48.505 --> 01:48:51.485
And I think, once again, I think that's I think that's solvable.

1189
01:48:51.945 --> 01:48:56.365
We could easily solvable solve it on a centralized proprietary way.

1190
01:48:57.545 --> 01:49:04.520
If I mean, look. But if we're arguing against the status quo. Right? Like, if you're arguing against that you could reach out to x support and they can save you,

1191
01:49:05.139 --> 01:49:06.760
like, I we could do that tomorrow.

1192
01:49:07.219 --> 01:49:14.039
Like, I we could push that feature live and just hold your fucking NSEC for you and make sure no one else takes it. And if you get compromised,

1193
01:49:14.500 --> 01:49:15.960
you know, switch your password.

1194
01:49:16.815 --> 01:49:26.835
I don't think I think there's more elegant ways we could do that without having that trade off, and that'll take more time. Yeah. And and I think on, like, the insect side, the, like, the easy route is

1195
01:49:28.095 --> 01:49:39.770
use something like we talked about for seeds, iCloud keychain, Android auto backup. There's, like, each of the main mobile platforms has an Internet access. So you you already trust Apple and Google with the vast majority of your

1196
01:49:40.310 --> 01:49:44.730
life. Most people, unfortunately, trust Apple or Google with the vast majority of your online

1197
01:49:45.349 --> 01:49:49.445
personas anyways. And if you're using Internet encryption and you have good two factor,

1198
01:49:49.905 --> 01:49:50.645
it's actually

1199
01:49:51.025 --> 01:49:55.525
really good security, but it is a little frightening that there's just there's no going back.

1200
01:49:55.905 --> 01:49:59.905
Like, if you lose your insect, there's no going back. You cannot do anything with it. So

1201
01:50:01.830 --> 01:50:08.890
Yeah. But, I mean, Elon can just hit you with a ban hammer. Right? Like, we're not in like, the the status quo is not great.

1202
01:50:10.070 --> 01:50:13.610
I mean, American Huddl has had eight accounts on on Twitter.

1203
01:50:14.505 --> 01:50:24.844
And, like, there's no there's no cryptographic verification. He's not signing a PGP message when he he's just like, yo. I'm back. American Huddl two. American Huddl three. It's just like

1204
01:50:25.145 --> 01:50:29.245
just fucking post. And, like, that's the current status quo. But I think also

1205
01:50:29.570 --> 01:50:30.470
too much has

1206
01:50:31.090 --> 01:50:40.550
been played on the censorship resistance side, which I do think Nasr offers a lot of promise there, particularly for, quote, unquote, high value accounts that you can't quantify.

1207
01:50:41.810 --> 01:50:44.630
Like Kanye, for instance. If Kanye came on

1208
01:50:46.054 --> 01:50:46.795
to Nasr,

1209
01:50:47.335 --> 01:50:48.235
first of all,

1210
01:50:49.175 --> 01:50:51.995
I don't know if we're ready. But if he came on to Nasr,

1211
01:50:53.175 --> 01:50:55.195
there would be, like, 500

1212
01:50:55.415 --> 01:50:58.235
servers that were just dedicated to storing his content.

1213
01:50:58.740 --> 01:51:03.480
Like, literally, every note he sent would be signed, and they would just be saved by a bunch of people,

1214
01:51:04.420 --> 01:51:05.560
because it's Kanye.

1215
01:51:06.180 --> 01:51:11.880
Or, like, if it was Donald Trump. Right? Like, the president of The United States. The, like, the the super sensitive accounts

1216
01:51:12.635 --> 01:51:16.975
that are most prone to types of censorship and shadow banning and stuff,

1217
01:51:18.795 --> 01:51:22.735
in a non quantifiable it's like a Streisand effect kind of situation.

1218
01:51:23.275 --> 01:51:26.495
I think they I think they get saved. But, anyway, my point is

1219
01:51:26.890 --> 01:51:32.989
that a lot has been pointed out on the censorship resistance side. But I think just the simple idea that everything is signed,

1220
01:51:34.810 --> 01:51:43.775
and so you can verify the integrity of it. And now we're doing it with media too where all media is hashed and signed. So you know, like when I'm gonna post this,

1221
01:51:44.155 --> 01:51:46.815
right, it's on YouTube because YouTube has all the apps.

1222
01:51:47.915 --> 01:51:50.574
Right? And people wanna watch on their TV and stuff.

1223
01:51:51.594 --> 01:51:58.679
So we still post to YouTube even though You're shadow pan. There's not many yeah. There's not many viewers on YouTube,

1224
01:51:59.139 --> 01:52:04.520
because I refuse to turn on monetization or put the clickbait headlines or anything like that and play the Algo game.

1225
01:52:05.300 --> 01:52:10.040
We stream to x through the ten thirty one account because my partner, Jonathan,

1226
01:52:11.315 --> 01:52:19.255
insisted on blue checking that account, and so it was blue checked anyway. So I might as well just stream out through that. So when the inevitable x dump happens,

1227
01:52:19.875 --> 01:52:23.335
that's his phone number that's attached to that account, just FYI, everybody,

1228
01:52:24.190 --> 01:52:25.490
and his billing address.

1229
01:52:27.230 --> 01:52:29.490
But the only place where I post

1230
01:52:29.870 --> 01:52:33.170
where you know it hasn't been modified after the fact is not.

1231
01:52:33.790 --> 01:52:38.370
And I think that becomes more and more important. It was like, you actually have a source of truth.

1232
01:52:40.325 --> 01:52:42.825
And to not delve into, like, the

1233
01:52:43.525 --> 01:52:49.465
opp return wars too much, you could then use if you wanted to, you could use open time stamps, and I can prove that

1234
01:52:50.085 --> 01:52:54.265
this happened at this time. I have cryptographic proof that it hasn't been changed

1235
01:52:54.710 --> 01:52:57.449
because it's gonna get wild. Like, I think people don't realize,

1236
01:52:57.989 --> 01:53:00.889
like, we've done both of us have done

1237
01:53:01.190 --> 01:53:03.449
thousands of hours of video content.

1238
01:53:03.909 --> 01:53:05.290
They can make us say anything.

1239
01:53:07.055 --> 01:53:08.995
They can make us say absolutely anything.

1240
01:53:09.455 --> 01:53:15.555
And, like, so to have a source of truth. And how where is that source of truth gonna come from? It's not gonna come from a proprietary business.

1241
01:53:16.175 --> 01:53:20.675
Like, it's not gonna come from a big tech company. What they're gonna do is they're gonna KYC everyone.

1242
01:53:21.170 --> 01:53:24.550
I'm almost positive. Like, Palantir is the back end.

1243
01:53:25.730 --> 01:53:32.130
X, TikTok, Facebook, they're the front end. Like, we talk a lot about x. I talk a lot about x, but that's because Elon is the most

1244
01:53:33.435 --> 01:53:42.974
he's the best of the big techs in terms of free speech and stuff. And he's still bad. Right? Like, he talks one way and then bans a bunch of people in India, bans people in Turkey and stuff,

1245
01:53:43.435 --> 01:53:47.375
and shadow bans them. So, like, you can see them in The US, but you can't see them where it matters.

1246
01:53:48.510 --> 01:53:51.809
But, like, Facebook has 5,000,000,000 users. Like, it's not gonna be Facebook

1247
01:53:52.510 --> 01:53:54.369
that offers cryptographic verifiability.

1248
01:53:55.789 --> 01:54:01.809
They're gonna KYC people. They're gonna be like, we proved it behind the scenes. You can trust us that it hasn't been changed.

1249
01:54:02.245 --> 01:54:09.945
And I don't know I don't want that to be the status quo. Like, I I think that's a bad world to live in. And I think it's gonna be rough to get there,

1250
01:54:12.325 --> 01:54:13.545
but it's doable.

1251
01:54:14.325 --> 01:54:16.025
It's doable. And I think

1252
01:54:16.500 --> 01:54:21.800
for me personally, what do I care the most about? It's like, I care about, like, Bitcoin and false discussion.

1253
01:54:23.780 --> 01:54:25.559
And how many accounts matter?

1254
01:54:26.340 --> 01:54:30.199
Like, I we we need, like, 15 people, a hundred people

1255
01:54:31.055 --> 01:54:37.475
to actually put time in, and then then it's actually useful because you have a chicken and the egg problem on the content side.

1256
01:54:38.735 --> 01:54:40.515
Anyway, I'm ranting, but

1257
01:54:41.295 --> 01:54:50.119
I bootstrapped Twitter Bitcoin Twitter. I was one of the hundred accounts that bootstrapped Bitcoin Twitter. And what did I get out of it? Nothing. They just sold me to someone else.

1258
01:54:50.980 --> 01:54:56.840
They sold all my shit. Like, Dorsey wasn't great when he was running Twitter. But still, at the end of the day, he just, like

1259
01:54:58.099 --> 01:55:01.085
Moved on. Sold me off. Him and the shareholders

1260
01:55:01.465 --> 01:55:04.525
sold me off, and then he can do like, it's not my property.

1261
01:55:05.864 --> 01:55:06.605
So, like,

1262
01:55:07.385 --> 01:55:13.165
maybe we can build something better. Maybe we can't, but that's how I think about it. No. I'm I'm hopeful. I think, like

1263
01:55:14.820 --> 01:55:19.080
like, I'm bearish on the idea of Nostr becoming this, like,

1264
01:55:19.699 --> 01:55:22.360
normal mass market product as social media,

1265
01:55:23.139 --> 01:55:29.815
but that's also Yeah. I mean, if you ask me about Bitcoin as freedom money or Monero or any privacy tech generally,

1266
01:55:30.355 --> 01:55:31.815
any freedom tech generally,

1267
01:55:32.275 --> 01:55:38.055
I'm generally pretty bearish on it becoming a mass market tool. Like, unfortunately, many people are more than happy to live

1268
01:55:38.595 --> 01:55:40.135
lives with blinders on,

1269
01:55:40.490 --> 01:55:48.350
and they don't wake up until very late if they wake up at all to how broken the system is. So, like, again, I the vast majority of what

1270
01:55:49.130 --> 01:55:55.790
I care about are things that are probably gonna remain relatively niche. So Nosta remaining relatively niche isn't the end of the world if it does serve

1271
01:55:56.465 --> 01:56:03.445
human freedom. Like, I don't think it's gonna replace Twitter, but if it remains a platform that people The bull case is like That's great.

1272
01:56:03.905 --> 01:56:06.804
The bull case is like 5% of people. Yeah.

1273
01:56:07.105 --> 01:56:09.204
Right? And, like, that's, like, overly optimistic.

1274
01:56:11.670 --> 01:56:19.610
For all of these things, like, Bitcoin is free to money. It's, like, 5% of people. And the ability for anyone without permission to opt into that.

1275
01:56:21.110 --> 01:56:23.495
That's the bull case. And then maybe

1276
01:56:24.035 --> 01:56:26.455
and there's some corollaries with Bitcoin here.

1277
01:56:27.395 --> 01:56:30.375
You know, I could see a world where you could read

1278
01:56:31.155 --> 01:56:32.935
nostril notes in x,

1279
01:56:34.195 --> 01:56:38.790
but you can't read x notes everywhere else. So they, like, pull it into their walled garden.

1280
01:56:39.410 --> 01:56:44.310
Right? Like, they're like, the central if if you post on Nasr, you can read it on Facebook.

1281
01:56:45.330 --> 01:56:50.470
But Facebook doesn't return the favor. And you can't you see that. Right? Like, what are the most successful businesses

1282
01:56:50.865 --> 01:56:53.125
in Bitcoin? It's Binance. It's Coinbase.

1283
01:56:54.545 --> 01:57:01.525
Right? And they leverage the open protocol, but they don't contribute back to it. They have their walled gardens that leverage it. They wanna keep you in the system.

1284
01:57:03.170 --> 01:57:05.429
Right. So I could see a world where that happens.

1285
01:57:06.290 --> 01:57:07.670
And then all of a sudden,

1286
01:57:08.210 --> 01:57:13.510
it impacts more than five percent of people in a positive way. Maybe that's the true bull case.

1287
01:57:14.610 --> 01:57:16.630
And people will complain about it and whatnot

1288
01:57:17.415 --> 01:57:43.710
just like they do today with the client. It's so has so many similarities to Bitcoin. Like, I think we do need to divorce it from Bitcoin because one of the problems with Nostra I have right now is that it's, like, Bitcoin social media. Like, it it needs to become more than that. We have a good Monero community. Nice. Nice. Glad to see that growing there. I think there was a little bit of that. Did you not see them fighting in the announcements? A little bit. In the in the announcements, it was the Monero bros fighting the Bitcoin. I only saw you fighting the the anti Monero bros.

1289
01:57:44.055 --> 01:57:59.400
The other. No. They came in a little bit later. Think again. We have a decent amount Yeah. In there. I think, like I mean, there's there's nothing stopping anyone from putting Monero's apps in. It already it already exists, actually. There's a third party client that lets you do Monero's apps on Nostra Post.

1290
01:58:00.920 --> 01:58:02.140
The the problem is

1291
01:58:03.800 --> 01:58:07.260
is you need this like, the whole point of a Zap is the social signal.

1292
01:58:07.560 --> 01:58:15.179
Like, everyone wants private zaps or you don't actually want private zaps. Like, people want to be the top zap on the post with their little

1293
01:58:15.555 --> 01:58:23.015
logo their little base on it. It's, like, part of the That's the whole point, really. I mean, like, a private zap is just a donation, which is fine.

1294
01:58:23.475 --> 01:58:25.235
Like, donating is awesome, but it's

1295
01:58:25.875 --> 01:58:35.690
yeah. It's the social value. I mean, just like if you if you wanted private social media, that's just called a group chat. Like, go on signal or something. You don't need Nosta or something like that. But,

1296
01:58:37.350 --> 01:58:41.130
yeah. I don't know. I don't know how we bootstrap it past Bitcoiners.

1297
01:58:43.945 --> 01:58:46.925
To be frank, me personally, I don't really care.

1298
01:58:48.425 --> 01:58:50.765
I actually think there's not enough Bitcoin discussion.

1299
01:58:51.385 --> 01:58:53.565
Like, when people are fighting about Bitcoin,

1300
01:58:53.865 --> 01:58:57.005
they should be fighting on Master. They're not right now. They're,

1301
01:58:57.349 --> 01:58:59.289
like, they're fight they're fighting on x,

1302
01:59:00.070 --> 01:59:00.889
or they're fighting

1303
01:59:01.349 --> 01:59:03.050
on delving Bitcoin, which,

1304
01:59:03.909 --> 01:59:05.610
like, I appreciate it exists,

1305
01:59:07.670 --> 01:59:10.170
but, like, another walled garden platform.

1306
01:59:10.805 --> 01:59:16.345
Or maybe walled garden is the wrong word, but it's a proprietary centralized platform. You know? Like, they should be fighting on Nasr.

1307
01:59:16.965 --> 01:59:20.345
And we don't have enough Bitcoin content there, in my opinion.

1308
01:59:21.365 --> 01:59:22.825
But, you know, I think

1309
01:59:25.520 --> 01:59:33.220
I think there's something to be said. Maybe I look at everything from a Bitcoin lens. But in this world today where we stand, where

1310
01:59:33.680 --> 01:59:35.940
if the average person goes on x

1311
01:59:36.320 --> 01:59:38.020
and you onboard them to Bitcoin

1312
01:59:40.615 --> 01:59:41.915
by putting them on x,

1313
01:59:43.015 --> 01:59:45.835
an overwhelming majority are gonna just buy MSTR

1314
01:59:46.455 --> 01:59:48.235
or Meta Planet or some shit.

1315
01:59:48.695 --> 01:59:50.955
And then, like, a second tier will

1316
01:59:52.380 --> 01:59:56.240
buy and take self custody. A smaller subset will buy and take self custody,

1317
01:59:57.420 --> 02:00:04.000
and rarely spend it or use it as freedom money. And then an even tinier subset will actually then

1318
02:00:04.425 --> 02:00:09.165
use it as savings and use it as spending. But if you bring them into somewhere, like,

1319
02:00:10.105 --> 02:00:14.925
into if you if you onboard them to Primal or you onboard them into Nasr generally,

1320
02:00:15.865 --> 02:00:23.820
and their first experience is not buying Bitcoin, but it's shitposting and receiving 21 sats, which, by the way, can't receive it on chain,

1321
02:00:24.440 --> 02:00:27.900
then all of a sudden, their first experience with Bitcoin is receiving it as money.

1322
02:00:28.680 --> 02:00:33.020
And and they and it's a different user journey. So even if we get

1323
02:00:34.515 --> 02:00:41.255
two per 2% of the amount of people are coming into Nasr than they're coming into x, which is probably generous, maybe it's even less,

1324
02:00:41.635 --> 02:00:47.415
it's a way higher percent that are using Bitcoin as money and coming into it as Bitcoin as money.

1325
02:00:47.715 --> 02:00:58.360
And so they're thinking about that, and then they start to think about self custody from that direction rather than the opposite. I I like the thought process. I I think it's very optimistic. I like it. I think my main concern is just, like, where

1326
02:00:59.000 --> 02:01:00.620
how are you getting these people

1327
02:01:01.835 --> 02:01:03.855
into Nasr and into Bitcoin?

1328
02:01:04.235 --> 02:01:09.375
I well, I deleted my ex account, so I need you to show it. Exactly. That's right. That's like

1329
02:01:09.835 --> 02:01:20.460
This is this is what I'm doing right now. That's the hard part for me, and, like, I know we've talked about this, and I talked to some other people about it. But, like, the reason I have a Twitter is not because I like Twitter. I freaking hate Twitter. I hate social media.

1330
02:01:20.840 --> 02:01:25.340
Like you, I would love to just disappear tomorrow and not have to do the

1331
02:01:26.040 --> 02:01:27.980
influencer shit. I could, but

1332
02:01:28.455 --> 02:01:34.395
they're not just downsides. They're not just upsides for me. There's also downsides for other people. I know. All the people that I can reach on x,

1333
02:01:34.935 --> 02:01:35.974
99.9%

1334
02:01:35.974 --> 02:01:44.660
of them are never gonna be on Noster or at least not for a very long time. So, like, I think it has to be, like, a multi tiered funnel. Like, I think, also, if there's no Nostr,

1335
02:01:45.040 --> 02:01:52.260
we're greatly limited in the amount of, like, freedom discussions we can have because there's a central platform that can control that. So we need Nostr.

1336
02:01:52.880 --> 02:01:57.615
I view it more as, like, a shit hits the fan, break the emergency glass kinda thing,

1337
02:01:58.095 --> 02:01:59.555
where we need to catch people

1338
02:01:59.935 --> 02:02:01.075
higher up in the funnel,

1339
02:02:01.615 --> 02:02:05.955
show them FreedomTech, show them things like Nostr, show them things like Bitcoin,

1340
02:02:06.495 --> 02:02:07.555
and catch them

1341
02:02:07.935 --> 02:02:09.075
before they've been

1342
02:02:09.455 --> 02:02:15.190
just stuck in that forever or have been in that for ten years before they discover Nostra or whatever. And so that's why, like

1343
02:02:15.890 --> 02:02:20.850
like, I I'm hesitant myself to leave Twitter and go to Nostra because I feel like it would be

1344
02:02:22.530 --> 02:02:24.070
I don't have to service it.

1345
02:02:24.435 --> 02:02:28.775
You don't have to. I'm not maybe past Matt was like, delete the trip. Don't delete.

1346
02:02:29.715 --> 02:02:41.010
Just use Nostra more. That's all I'm saying. I'm a I'm a much friendlier I've moved to a friendlier. That much time, Matt. I'm at a friend house, man. I can't I know. I can't post that. Well, that's why I use not through only. I know.

1347
02:02:41.790 --> 02:02:42.290
I,

1348
02:02:44.430 --> 02:02:45.250
so I think

1349
02:02:47.150 --> 02:02:52.185
we are gonna get to a place on primal where you can post on primal, and then it'll auto post

1350
02:02:52.585 --> 02:02:58.365
to Twitter as well. Because you can't do it in the reverse because of the way the APIs work, but we can do it in that direction.

1351
02:03:00.025 --> 02:03:02.605
So maybe that will make it more,

1352
02:03:04.025 --> 02:03:18.500
interesting for you where you can automatically cross post. Obviously, you'd have to do it within Nasr to do but we'll make it so it doesn't shadow ban you and it looks nice and shit. You know, like, a hootsuite or something. Do that. That would be totally a no brainer. I'd adopt it overnight.

1353
02:03:18.960 --> 02:03:25.985
We have that we have that going for you and then, or going for us. And then the other thing I would say is,

1354
02:03:28.285 --> 02:03:31.745
I respect the thought that it's a shit hits the fan type of situation,

1355
02:03:32.364 --> 02:03:34.305
and I respect the thought that,

1356
02:03:35.720 --> 02:03:38.140
you wanna, like, save people or help people.

1357
02:03:38.600 --> 02:03:41.660
I've that's where I came from as well in the beginning.

1358
02:03:45.640 --> 02:03:48.780
And I did like, I justify it by saying that

1359
02:03:49.320 --> 02:03:55.215
I I put in my time. I helped a lot of people. You did. You know, I told them to stack sets at the generational bottom.

1360
02:03:55.595 --> 02:03:57.215
Now it's a hundred thousand dollars.

1361
02:03:59.915 --> 02:04:00.315
I,

1362
02:04:01.035 --> 02:04:03.615
but just know in the back of your head

1363
02:04:04.880 --> 02:04:06.980
that the reason the shit hits the fan

1364
02:04:07.360 --> 02:04:13.060
solution will be there when shit hits the fan is because there's a bunch of us building up shit hits the fan thing

1365
02:04:13.920 --> 02:04:28.505
while other people aren't building it. I'm I'm legitimately grateful. Right. Yeah. I'm legitimately grateful. Because I like I like I said earlier, I know it's We'll be ready for this. And how painful a lot of Denosta user experience has been over the years. It wasn't you know? Like, building that is vital. I delete everything.

1366
02:04:29.605 --> 02:04:34.585
I I delete everything. I delete I've deleted my Facebook way back when. I deleted my LinkedIn.

1367
02:04:34.890 --> 02:04:38.270
This is just the I deleted my Telegram. That was also a bad one.

1368
02:04:39.930 --> 02:04:46.510
Yeah. I've there was a point for six months where people didn't know how to contact me because they couldn't DM me on Twitter, and I deleted my Telegram.

1369
02:04:49.065 --> 02:04:54.285
But the people that figured it out were able to reach me on signal. Get the highest of signal DMs now because

1370
02:04:54.745 --> 02:04:57.165
there's only, like, two places to reach you. There you go.

1371
02:04:58.025 --> 02:05:01.805
You have to put the proof of work in. But, anyway, I'm not trying to,

1372
02:05:02.989 --> 02:05:07.330
maybe I am I'm, but I'm not intentionally trying to get you or anything. It's just something that

1373
02:05:07.949 --> 02:05:10.690
it's something that obvious, like I'm getting tired

1374
02:05:12.030 --> 02:05:12.690
and I,

1375
02:05:13.390 --> 02:05:13.550
and,

1376
02:05:15.645 --> 02:05:27.185
so I'm I I'm throwing things at the wall to see how we boost adoption, and it it has been it has been slower than I expected. And I think part of it is because Elon has done a a pretty decent job.

1377
02:05:28.045 --> 02:05:29.025
Like, he's clearly,

1378
02:05:32.180 --> 02:05:33.000
he he

1379
02:05:33.620 --> 02:05:39.000
x has got a a ton of users. User growth is going up. Functionality is going up.

1380
02:05:39.540 --> 02:05:42.120
He's mostly at least hidden the censorship

1381
02:05:42.820 --> 02:05:46.715
behind the bin in the side. You know? Like, people don't really realize what's going on.

1382
02:05:48.315 --> 02:05:54.095
And it's gonna take a and then he's obviously friendly with the current administration, so there's not, like, a back and forth.

1383
02:05:54.475 --> 02:05:57.055
But that can change quickly. So, like, there's no

1384
02:05:57.410 --> 02:06:00.050
there's no hot stove pushing people, but maybe it's,

1385
02:06:01.650 --> 02:06:07.510
that can turn, yeah, that can turn quickly. And also, we live in a global world. Right? Like, so there's people right now

1386
02:06:08.370 --> 02:06:10.790
in Serbia or India or Turkey

1387
02:06:11.170 --> 02:06:11.910
or Brazil

1388
02:06:14.724 --> 02:06:15.385
that actually

1389
02:06:16.565 --> 02:06:28.105
probably could benefit significantly from it. And maybe we are we're not really getting those users right now. But I think part of that is tooling. Yeah. And, also, that's why I brought you on because I think Cakewal does a really good job of tooling,

1390
02:06:28.940 --> 02:06:31.440
and we wanna lower the friction as much as possible.

1391
02:06:32.699 --> 02:06:36.000
Okay. Last piece. We talked about Nasr too much.

1392
02:06:36.540 --> 02:06:39.179
We were forced. There were too many people asking for it. So

1393
02:06:42.405 --> 02:06:43.864
This debate currently

1394
02:06:44.485 --> 02:06:46.665
about seedless is safer. Oh my god.

1395
02:06:47.364 --> 02:06:47.864
Yeah.

1396
02:06:48.725 --> 02:06:50.905
This debate has mostly happened on x.

1397
02:06:51.284 --> 02:06:52.744
I wish it happened on Noster.

1398
02:06:53.550 --> 02:06:54.210
You're on

1399
02:06:54.590 --> 02:06:57.810
x. You're building you're VP of a self custody wallet

1400
02:06:58.350 --> 02:07:02.130
that gives you your seed words, a nice easy copy button.

1401
02:07:02.670 --> 02:07:04.050
How do you think about this?

1402
02:07:05.470 --> 02:07:10.665
It's a I mean, it's a tricky one. Like, I understand the approach that Bitkey is taking

1403
02:07:11.125 --> 02:07:13.065
because they are kind of taking the

1404
02:07:13.685 --> 02:07:21.225
make it as easy as possible even if it's compromising on a lot of the things that have been critical to Bitcoin security in the past.

1405
02:07:22.260 --> 02:07:28.520
And it does it in a way that is very user friendly because you're just removing a lot of what are the traditional barriers of entry.

1406
02:07:28.980 --> 02:07:31.560
I think the biggest issue for me

1407
02:07:32.340 --> 02:07:33.080
is that,

1408
02:07:34.015 --> 02:07:48.675
at least, I only want to build tools that do not rely on me or my company being around long term. Like, obviously, I hope that Cake Wallet is around forever. I hope that we're wildly successful building self custody privacy tools. Like, obviously, that's the hope. But

1409
02:07:49.210 --> 02:07:53.550
I think all of these things should be built in a way that is the the most standard, the most portable,

1410
02:07:54.409 --> 02:07:56.349
the least walled garden as possible,

1411
02:07:57.210 --> 02:08:22.670
and the one that provides the best security possible for the user. Obviously, k wallet is very different from something like Bitkey because we're talking about a hot a hot wallet where key management, like, the the threshold is much lower because we're not talking generational wealth. Whereas when you're talking about hardware wallets, like, the main problem I have with Bitkey is twofold. The portability of not offering a seed to their users makes it much harder to migrate off. I know they have some, like, a emergency access kit or something that they call it.

1412
02:08:23.130 --> 02:08:25.710
It works. Possible. I've tested it. It's possible.

1413
02:08:26.250 --> 02:08:26.750
Probably

1414
02:08:27.530 --> 02:08:38.344
99 of Bitcoin influencers have not tested it, but I've actually tested the entire flow. Yeah. And I I haven't tested it either, to be completely fair. I haven't had that much time with with Bitkey itself. But

1415
02:08:39.364 --> 02:08:41.465
You basically you install an APK

1416
02:08:42.485 --> 02:08:44.105
that doesn't rely on their servers,

1417
02:08:46.645 --> 02:08:47.145
and

1418
02:08:48.199 --> 02:08:53.179
then you have a PDF that's in your automatically put in your cloud backup,

1419
02:08:53.880 --> 02:09:16.645
which if you lose access to your cloud back, if you don't have that PDF, but you could also save that PDF at will at any time. But only through the So there's a PDF the only way you can get the PDF in short? No. No. No. No. No. No. The PDF is, like, literally just it's an encrypted PDF that's encrypted with your Bitkey hardware that's sitting in your cloud drive automatically as soon as you set up the wallet. It's always sitting there. It's just just sitting there. It says Bitkey

1420
02:09:17.420 --> 02:09:18.640
break in case of emergency.

1421
02:09:20.220 --> 02:09:23.280
But you can also download that and save it separately at will whenever.

1422
02:09:23.660 --> 02:09:25.040
Now if the time comes,

1423
02:09:25.660 --> 02:09:26.240
you know,

1424
02:09:26.780 --> 02:09:29.200
block cancels you or goes out of business.

1425
02:09:30.220 --> 02:09:31.280
You take that PDF.

1426
02:09:32.125 --> 02:09:33.425
You download the APK,

1427
02:09:34.045 --> 02:09:35.585
you scan it with the APK,

1428
02:09:36.285 --> 02:09:46.250
you tap your Bitkey to decrypt it, and then you have two keys. Then you send all in one transaction out to another wallet. So it's actually, like, relatively clean

1429
02:09:46.869 --> 02:09:50.810
if you know what an APK is and you still have access to your cloud account.

1430
02:09:52.710 --> 02:09:58.455
Let's be honest. Pretty much any a big key user in that situation is gonna be in full on panic mode. Yeah.

1431
02:09:58.855 --> 02:10:09.275
But it works. Yeah. What So that's the current Which is, like, the lowest bar. Like, that's if they didn't have that, that would be terrifying. Like, you gotta be absolutely terrifying. But, like, that is the lowest bar that's absolutely necessary,

1432
02:10:09.815 --> 02:10:11.415
which I think is fine. I mean, the

1433
02:10:12.750 --> 02:10:14.450
I don't know. It it really just

1434
02:10:15.230 --> 02:10:16.930
the user needs to be properly

1435
02:10:18.190 --> 02:10:25.650
educated about that, but I don't think it's the end of the world for it to be like that. But the main problem I have with it is that for their target demographic,

1436
02:10:26.430 --> 02:10:28.210
it's essentially a walled garden.

1437
02:10:29.205 --> 02:10:46.500
It's very hard for them to move to something else other than sending the stats themselves and from talking to lots of people, hardware wallet users who wanna migrate. Like, that's a terrifying prospect for the vast majority of users and not something they would do unless shit hit the fan. So that's my like, I don't I honestly don't have a huge, like,

1438
02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:51.300
care in the the fight. I think the only other thing that I don't like is just the screenless approach

1439
02:10:51.920 --> 02:10:54.480
also introduces some trust. Yeah. The screenless is

1440
02:10:55.440 --> 02:11:03.255
they just need it. They need it. Like it. You could do a really good UX with a screen. Like, I I really don't think it's necessary to be screenless for their target demographic,

1441
02:11:04.195 --> 02:11:07.495
and it does have some serious compromises in in security.

1442
02:11:08.035 --> 02:11:22.820
But, again, there's very few people that are gonna be buying a bit kit that are gonna be attacked in the way that a screen would protect them. A bit key. Yeah. Exactly. There's, like, there's a a very small threat model. It is important to know and discuss, but that's why I'm, like, I'm not up in arms about the approach.

1443
02:11:23.920 --> 02:11:26.660
But I think it is valuable that people understand it, and

1444
02:11:27.285 --> 02:11:35.225
it also should be a good driver for those of us building things that are more traditionally self custody with seed phrases is how can we continue to make things easier without

1445
02:11:36.005 --> 02:11:40.824
that full blown trade off of being seedless or full blown trade off of being screenless, that sort of thing.

1446
02:11:42.199 --> 02:11:43.260
I mean, I think

1447
02:11:44.280 --> 02:11:45.100
it's not

1448
02:11:46.360 --> 02:11:53.100
it doesn't compete with a typical hardware signer, like, a typical hardware wallet where the hardware wallet is trying to protect you from your hot device,

1449
02:11:54.575 --> 02:12:00.835
by being able to verify on a secure screen and approve transactions and hold your keys on it. What it's really doing

1450
02:12:01.775 --> 02:12:02.275
is

1451
02:12:03.455 --> 02:12:03.955
making

1452
02:12:04.415 --> 02:12:04.915
a

1453
02:12:05.215 --> 02:12:08.435
standard mobile wallet more recoverable in more situations.

1454
02:12:08.870 --> 02:12:09.750
Right? It's like,

1455
02:12:11.350 --> 02:12:17.930
which is why I see why they didn't add a screen. Right? Because it's if if the screen is if if the phone is compromised,

1456
02:12:18.870 --> 02:12:20.810
like, the big key is not gonna protect you,

1457
02:12:21.670 --> 02:12:23.370
if it shows you the wrong information.

1458
02:12:23.750 --> 02:12:24.250
Well,

1459
02:12:24.585 --> 02:12:30.525
it would But if you lose your phone, if you lose You wouldn't have a way to verify what was the correct information.

1460
02:12:32.185 --> 02:12:47.150
Right. But if you lose your phone, it allows you to easily and sit relatively securely recover. And if you lose your big key, it allows you to easily and securely recover. And if their server goes down, it allows you to ease so it's like a more of a recovery device, a recovery mechanism than a verification mechanism.

1461
02:12:47.770 --> 02:12:52.270
Does Cake Wallet support hardware wallets right now? Just Ledger right now, but we're working on adding more,

1462
02:12:52.809 --> 02:13:00.325
throughout the course of the year. You're gonna just do, like, the basic QR support? No. We definitely don't. Like, I feel like we definitely will. I know, like, we had some people asking about Jade, and,

1463
02:13:01.285 --> 02:13:08.185
I don't know that, like, cold card is our normal demographic. But But but if you add if you add QR PSVT

1464
02:13:08.565 --> 02:13:09.810
standard, then you

1465
02:13:10.270 --> 02:13:25.125
support Jade, cold card, seed sign, or passport. You support all of them without doing anything. We technically already have it. Just we haven't actually exposed it to people connecting other hardware wallets. Because we we actually have our own app that's not really ready for prime time yet, but will be soon. That is

1466
02:13:25.505 --> 02:13:32.805
a offline signer app that you install on a second phone, like an old phone or something that you keep offline. And it it works using PSVT

1467
02:13:33.345 --> 02:13:40.230
over you are, all the same functionality. So we already have actually have all of it there. So that's why I'm saying, like, we we will have broader support

1468
02:13:40.690 --> 02:13:43.270
because we already have all of the bones of signing PSBTs

1469
02:13:43.810 --> 02:13:44.630
using UR,

1470
02:13:45.330 --> 02:13:51.110
the QR back and forth, all of that actually already in place in cake. So it's definitely coming. It's definitely coming.

1471
02:13:52.764 --> 02:13:53.824
So, I mean, last

1472
02:13:54.125 --> 02:13:57.985
last thing on the seed thing. So when I go to save a seed in cake wallet,

1473
02:13:59.005 --> 02:14:01.264
you give me, like, the scariest warning.

1474
02:14:01.724 --> 02:14:04.945
You know, don't lose the seed. Keep it safe.

1475
02:14:05.330 --> 02:14:09.190
Don't send it to support. I think it's, like, all caps, you will lose your money.

1476
02:14:11.010 --> 02:14:13.590
From, like, from your from your

1477
02:14:14.130 --> 02:14:16.230
perspective, like, do you see a lot

1478
02:14:17.090 --> 02:14:23.025
of fishing and people losing their Bitcoin now or Monero or their Nano or whatever? No. I mean,

1479
02:14:23.405 --> 02:14:30.465
the the thing that has remained true across working at Foundation, across just being an educator, across working at Cake, is

1480
02:14:31.099 --> 02:14:41.599
it's just people losing their money because they don't back up their seed. Like, it almost no one is losing their money because someone gets access to their seed because they had it in a a screenshot or something. It definitely

1481
02:14:41.900 --> 02:14:46.715
happens. Like, I think I've heard Well, the phishing app Phishing happens. But Right? Like, people will just

1482
02:14:47.094 --> 02:14:51.915
send it to support or send it to a fake Telegram contact. Even that is more rare now, actually.

1483
02:14:52.375 --> 02:14:59.480
I haven't heard of any cases of that within k Wallet. The one that we've had to put in, like, extra protections against and the most common one is

1484
02:15:00.340 --> 02:15:01.480
on EVM chains.

1485
02:15:02.980 --> 02:15:16.615
Adding fake stablecoin tokens is, like, the stupidest scam, but it happens and it works so well where an attacker will convince someone to add the contract address for a a fake version of USDT or USDC or something.

1486
02:15:17.075 --> 02:15:21.795
They'll sell it to them, and they'll keep sending them this fake USDT or USDC.

1487
02:15:22.910 --> 02:15:24.930
And so they think they'll think that they're

1488
02:15:25.310 --> 02:15:43.235
wealthy or making money or whatever, and they'll obviously send them extra to make them feel better. But all the while, it's completely useless tokens that they've created. We have all the protections in cake to warn you about this. We don't pull the fiat value of this. Users still keep falling for it despite having to three times confirm that this isn't a scam, that they know what they're doing.

1489
02:15:43.695 --> 02:15:49.875
That's that's been, like, the the most common. It's still rare. So what you're just checking you're just checking the contract addresses

1490
02:15:50.280 --> 02:16:01.659
to make sure that Yeah. I mean, we have a we have a white list of the primary ones that are used in this, like, the primary tokens that people are gonna use anyways. So, like, we'll we'll know if this is pretending to be USDT, but it's

1491
02:16:02.375 --> 02:16:04.715
some token this random scammer created.

1492
02:16:05.415 --> 02:16:22.860
But, obviously, we don't want to limit the user's ability to add custom tokens that we don't know about. Like, obviously, we don't wanna we don't want to lock them in a walled garden. So there's always a kind of balance there, but they have to click through, like, three different warnings in three different places on the screen that they're forced to read, like, all of this. But people still fall for it. And that's

1493
02:16:23.160 --> 02:16:27.180
like, when we think about security for Bitcoin wallets, that's always the lowest common denominator.

1494
02:16:27.655 --> 02:16:32.075
And that's always gonna be a problem no matter what approach you take. I mean, even if you're talking Bitkey,

1495
02:16:33.015 --> 02:16:52.689
a user who would do something like that is also just gonna send the money out of Bitkey and sign the transaction and send it because they think that they're getting the deal of a lifetime or something. Like, that there's always these things that we can't prevent. But I I only say that because the vast majority of the times I've seen people lose money over the years, it's either they didn't back up their seat at all, which is an interesting,

1496
02:16:53.790 --> 02:16:55.970
probably, pro for something like a Bitkey

1497
02:16:56.395 --> 02:17:03.216
because it makes it much harder to do that because you're not that's not a part of the process. You you keep your hardware wallet or you keep your phone or social recovery,

1498
02:17:04.235 --> 02:17:18.140
or they're they're having some specific, like, spear phishing campaign that's attacking them. But I think that's where, like, in the space more broadly, we have to lean into and, like, we're not doing this at cake yet. So, like, I'm pointing at myself as well. Yeah. We have to lean into

1499
02:17:18.680 --> 02:17:19.580
social recovery,

1500
02:17:20.040 --> 02:17:21.260
I think, much harder

1501
02:17:21.796 --> 02:17:28.216
because there's a world where you can do both. Like, you can have the seed phrase. You can force people through verification, which I think is something we should continue to do.

1502
02:17:29.315 --> 02:17:37.580
But you can also have social recovery done in a very intelligent way. And that's another specific actual use case for Nostr that I think could be really good,

1503
02:17:38.360 --> 02:17:45.820
is using Nostr for that social recovery without the users having to know that, like, Nostr is a social media platform. Like, maybe you want to do that.

1504
02:17:46.200 --> 02:17:53.995
But you can just use Nostr under the hood. So let's say three cake users agree to be each other's social recovery contacts. And if any two of them sign off,

1505
02:17:54.615 --> 02:18:00.395
someone can get their money back despite having lost their seed. Something like that is something where we definitely need to lean into that more.

1506
02:18:01.335 --> 02:18:05.755
Something I think I I would love for us to do at cake is lean into social recovery because that's the

1507
02:18:06.450 --> 02:18:10.390
that's, like, the next best solution other than going seedless and just

1508
02:18:10.770 --> 02:18:14.149
obfuscating all this from the user, which has a lot of other side effects.

1509
02:18:14.609 --> 02:18:18.390
You can do social recovery in a way that's very secure, but also much more

1510
02:18:19.136 --> 02:18:21.395
user friendly than the seed phrase thing.

1511
02:18:22.176 --> 02:18:24.755
By the way, that's how I think we're going to

1512
02:18:26.016 --> 02:18:27.216
try and do it with,

1513
02:18:28.495 --> 02:18:30.436
and and with key rotation

1514
02:18:31.200 --> 02:18:33.060
on masters with social recovery.

1515
02:18:33.440 --> 02:18:34.260
I like it.

1516
02:18:35.120 --> 02:18:41.300
Which will also we we actually already like, activists already do it in, like, hacky ways for

1517
02:18:44.165 --> 02:18:46.265
centralized platforms. Like, they share passwords.

1518
02:18:46.965 --> 02:18:50.585
So, like, if one person if one person gets arrested by the secret police

1519
02:18:50.965 --> 02:18:56.025
Mhmm. Like, they send out the bat signal and the other person changes the password kinda thing. Yeah.

1520
02:18:57.601 --> 02:19:06.160
Because once they get one person, they try and get the social graph. It's like a I don't know. I agree with that social recovery. It's hard to do. Right? Yes.

1521
02:19:06.721 --> 02:19:10.020
It's really hard to do if you don't already have a social network.

1522
02:19:11.075 --> 02:19:15.895
Like, if you don't already have a network graph because you kinda need them you need to bootstrap the,

1523
02:19:16.516 --> 02:19:25.476
like, the web of trust a little bit. Yeah. And then the last tier On the last tier social media side. Yeah. On the wallet side, I don't think you need any of that because you can easily just have a

1524
02:19:26.270 --> 02:19:41.490
You send, like, an invite link. Yeah. You send an invite link, and you have a simple maybe a simplified version of the app or a simplified mode in the app where all it is is the social recovery side. So, like, if my grandma, maybe she's not gonna be a k quality user, but she could be a great social recovery person because

1525
02:19:41.835 --> 02:19:50.655
she's always around. She's not going anywhere. Like No. That's that's not a problem. So you don't necessarily need it for that side. But for the for the nostr key rotation, obviously, you need a social.

1526
02:19:51.275 --> 02:19:53.850
And then last but not least, it's just hard to test.

1527
02:19:55.290 --> 02:19:55.770
But,

1528
02:19:56.489 --> 02:20:02.029
I agree that's the direction to go. Because then you you I need, like, five people to test it with and, like, put funds in

1529
02:20:02.330 --> 02:20:03.470
and go through the process,

1530
02:20:04.170 --> 02:20:05.229
see how it works.

1531
02:20:05.689 --> 02:20:14.145
But it's all solvable. I like social recovery. I think that would be a a big a big feature ad. And then I would just say last but not least, like, the I said it in passing, but

1532
02:20:14.524 --> 02:20:17.104
just the big ass warning you give people,

1533
02:20:18.045 --> 02:20:26.061
I think probably saves a lot of people. Like, just don't ever like, a nice piece of education that's built into the UX because let's be honest, they're not gonna watch,

1534
02:20:26.601 --> 02:20:31.500
like, a two hour YouTube video or something on securing their stuff, I think, is really important.

1535
02:20:31.880 --> 02:20:41.505
Yeah. Hopefully, they read it, but it's there. It's there. Okay. Awesome. Well, I told you we were gonna go an hour and fifteen, and it's two hours and twenty. So,

1536
02:20:42.205 --> 02:20:45.905
I knew you couldn't help yourself. We're getting back to old Citadel dispatch days.

1537
02:20:47.005 --> 02:20:50.385
Seth Seth told me that an hour and fifteen was too short for me.

1538
02:20:52.810 --> 02:20:53.630
Well, you

1539
02:20:54.410 --> 02:20:57.229
you we we got to do another long one. It's great.

1540
02:20:58.489 --> 02:21:05.390
I enjoyed the rip. I'd love to have you back in, you know, like, six months, a year as you guys build out a lot of these features.

1541
02:21:06.905 --> 02:21:09.806
Do you have any final thoughts for the audience before we wrap?

1542
02:21:11.385 --> 02:21:12.745
Nothing crazy. I think just,

1543
02:21:13.226 --> 02:21:27.351
yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Love love chatting about what we're doing at Geek Wallet, but really just continuing to chat about FreedomTech. I mean, I know I've said it before, but you're the main reason why I'm in this space at all. Main reason why I started a podcast and started to talk about that stuff as well. So

1544
02:21:27.730 --> 02:21:33.675
it's been awesome to to see that journey and, just cool to keep keep touching base touching base with you over the years.

1545
02:21:34.234 --> 02:21:37.854
So yeah. I mean, I guess just last little thing, if anyone wants to learn more,

1546
02:21:38.155 --> 02:21:39.774
add Seth for privacy on x,

1547
02:21:40.475 --> 02:21:46.814
add Seth for privacy on Noster as well, or I can't remember why I what my nip o five is, but I'm on there. I'll post

1548
02:21:47.250 --> 02:21:57.029
I'll post his x handles and his nostril handle in the show notes. There you go. There you go. But he's not active on nostril, so don't bother with the nostril handle. He will be in the future.

1549
02:21:58.210 --> 02:22:03.775
If you wanna check out Cake Wallet, it's just available in your favorite app store. Is it cakewallet.com?

1550
02:22:03.775 --> 02:22:05.215
Yeah. Cakewallet.com.

1551
02:22:05.215 --> 02:22:07.235
Mhmm. Awesome. Nice and easy.

1552
02:22:08.976 --> 02:22:17.670
And it's good to hear that I'm a little with at least a little part of the inspiration for your work. So I'm basically still on Twitter. I just don't have to send the tweets, which is great.

1553
02:22:19.270 --> 02:22:23.770
Freaks, thank you for joining us, especially those of you who joined us live. You make the show unique

1554
02:22:24.390 --> 02:22:27.770
and special. Thank you for everyone who's continued to support the show.

1555
02:22:28.950 --> 02:22:30.170
I'm gonna keep trying

1556
02:22:30.936 --> 02:22:34.875
to keep the streak up and do a show every week. I don't know when the next episode is,

1557
02:22:36.615 --> 02:22:40.155
but I'll notify you all on primal.net/odell.

1558
02:22:40.375 --> 02:22:43.995
Obviously, still dispatch is available in your favorite podcast app.

1559
02:22:46.000 --> 02:22:47.380
Share with friends and family.

1560
02:22:47.840 --> 02:22:51.220
Click that nice subscribe button. I hate saying it. Just

1561
02:22:51.920 --> 02:23:02.295
don't click the subscribe button. Click it if you want to. Take your take your friends and family's phones. Open up the podcast app and then subscribe for them. You don't even have to tell them. It doesn't require agency.

1562
02:23:04.034 --> 02:23:06.354
Awesome. Thank you, Seth, for joining us. And,

1563
02:23:07.635 --> 02:23:10.375
everyone, love you all. Stay on the Stack Sats. Peace.