CD161: ARBEDOUT - SOMETHING MORE PROFOUND

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 05/30/2025 18:59:25
Duration: 6269.248
Channels: 1

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Last fourteen years, and what a wild ride it's been.

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When I launched Silk Road,

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buying a whole Bitcoin would set you back less than a dollar.

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Pocket change.

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Can you imagine that?

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Now they're worth over a hundred thousand dollars

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each.

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Back then, there was just one exchange you could buy them on unless you wanted

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to scour message boards or go to local meetups.

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Now it seems like every app I download has a built in wallet with one click buying options.

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There are

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dozens of new cryptocurrencies

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and blockchains, each one

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fascinating in its own right, and thousands more I'll never have time to learn about.

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There's

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there's DeFi and Web three.

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And now there's AI to help me navigate it all. It's nuts.

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I

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I effectively went into a time capsule

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in 2013,

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and now I'm coming out like Rip Van Winkle.

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I mean, just a few months ago when I walked out of prison,

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I'd never seen a drone.

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I had never experienced

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AI. I still haven't. Sorry.

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VR.

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The headsets. Yeah. Haven't done that yet.

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I had never chatted with AI.

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It

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it's all hitting me at once.

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Freedom.

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The new technology. The fact that I have a future again.

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It's a lot.

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It's a lot.

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I mean,

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I was in prison, and now I get to

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live through this incredible time with all of you.

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What a blessing.

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What a miracle.

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What a gift.

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So

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when it comes to new tech, I feel like I'm way behind the curve.

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But I'm starting to suspect that

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maybe we're all feeling that way at least a little bit.

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I mean, everything's moving so fast right now

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and

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it's kinda thrilling to imagine where it's all going.

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But that question remains.

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How do we take the next leap?

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How do we go from 10

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to a hundred?

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Because of the speed,

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because of the chaos,

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it's more important than ever

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to stay true to our principles.

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It's easy to lose sight of principle

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when everything's happening all at once

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and there's a thousand things pulling your attention in every direction.

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Principles

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should be simple

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and few.

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And today, I would like to mention three.

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Freedom,

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decentralization,

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unity.

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Yeah.

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You got it.

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Happy Bitcoin Friday, freaks.

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It's your host, Odell,

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here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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Today's intro

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was Ross Ulbricht,

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his first

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appearance in person appearance

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since being released from jail. He got a presidential pardon

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after founding the Silk Road.

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Incredibly profound moment.

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That clip was three minutes

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three minutes and twenty one seconds to be specific.

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And we have longer twenty five minute,

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keynote that he gave,

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in Vegas at

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the annual Bitcoin magazine conference yesterday.

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I encourage you all to go listen to the whole thing.

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It's on Bitcoin Magazine's YouTube.

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It's also on

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posted on Noster. So you can go to primal.net/odell

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if you wanna watch it there, but I encourage you all to watch it at some point.

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It's just really wonderful to see him free, and it was important for us to highlight that.

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While we're on that topic, I just wanna remind everyone,

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that we have four open source developers currently,

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facing jail time.

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We have the two developers of Samurai,

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and we have the two developers of Tornado Cash. We need to get them out of jail. We shouldn't be putting open source developers in jail

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for self custody privacy focused software.

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If you wanna support their cause,

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the legal cases are quite expensive. You can go to p2prights.org,

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to donate

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with Bitcoin to help support their rising legal bills.

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On that note,

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I also wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show.

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Dispatch

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is funded by Bitcoin donations. We have no ads or sponsors.

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You can support the show by joining the live chat at silodispatch.com/stream

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and sending zaps,

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or you can support the show by sending zaps to the post that goes out after the show is over at primal.net/citadel.

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Last but not least, you can support the show using podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcasts,

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which you can download in your favorite app store.

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The top zap in

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podcasting two point o for last week's episode was from Stimmy.

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He said, good rip. Jones, pretty based for a suit. Appreciate the business on air and mixing in new topics too. He's up 10,000 sets. Thank you, Stimmy.

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With all that said, I have a good friend, a long time friend. I think it's his first time on Cielo Dispatch,

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but he's been quite the staple on rabbit hole recap for years. We have Arbed Out here.

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How's it going, Arbed Out? Thanks for joining us. Doing alright. Is it let me get the etiquette right here. Am I allowed to say sub freaks, or does Marty have that copyrighted?

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You can you can say sub freaks. I think he took it from someone.

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I don't know.

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He's not watching. Marty. What's up, Reese?

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Marty doesn't have a leg to stand on on copyright and trademark because he originally named the show Tales from the Crypt,

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which HBO

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held,

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the rights to and dismissed.

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But, yeah, the there's

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dispatch listeners are also freaks.

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So you're completely within your right to say that.

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Anyway, how are you doing? I'm doing alright, man. How are you?

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I'm doing great. I mean, we both skipped Vegas, so it's kind of funny that,

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we

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started started the show off with the Vegas clip, but, it felt important.

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Yeah. I not that I I love the Bitcoin conferences, but

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between family obligations and

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the way the conference crowd shakes out during I'm not gonna I don't know if I'm gonna call this a bull market, but during times like these,

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it's much more edifying for me to stay at home and join you on the on the rep. I don't know how you feel about it.

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Yeah. It's the the family

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the family friendly,

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the family friendly move. I don't know. I,

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I'm trying to cut down on conference travel in general.

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Yeah. It's hard to leave the family nowadays.

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And there's so many conferences.

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There's way too many. I mean, so this past week, there was both There was three conferences this past week. There was Bitcoin Vegas, then there was Oslo Freedom Forum,

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which I was sorry to miss,

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which, by the way, freaks.

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I also posted the full Freedom Tech and AI track from the Oslo Freedom Forum on Nasr.

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That one's, like, five and a half hours, but there's a lot of great content in there, that you should consider listening to. And then I guess there was a Bitcoin Ireland conference that happened at the same time,

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which seemed like it was relatively large, at least, I guess, for, like, an Irish conference.

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And then

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coming up is Bitcoin Prague, which is a massive conference that I'm also skipping.

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But, yeah, anyway, there's a lot of conferences now.

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When we first met, there weren't many conferences, particularly Bitcoin conferences. There were decent amount of crypto conferences. Oh, yeah. You had to go to the blockchain conferences and hope there was some Bitcoin content.

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And they were Yeah. In.

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You know what it makes me think of? There's that scene in fight club where the two of them are, they're going through the car lot, bang on the bang up the cars and saying, hey, there's a fight club over here. Did you start that? And, Tyler Jordan responds, no, I thought you did. And And that's when they realized things were getting way bigger than they than when they first started. It's like that Yeah. Like, Bitcoin frog, Bitcoin Ireland. What?

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Yeah. That's our that's our life now.

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Yeah. And I see a comment from a random end pub that the username isn't,

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oh, I three I two I z.

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Saying every time you hear stable coins, think CBDC.

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Yeah. Corporate bank digital currencies.

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Yeah.

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I think in practice, that's

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probably how we'll see CBDCs

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rolled out, and people will, like, say, well, actually, it's not a central bank. But

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they were probably one of the main focuses of this year's Bitcoin Vegas, which is definitely a trend to watch.

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Arbud, you said we're not in a bull market. You don't think we're in a bull market?

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You know,

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I'm terrible.

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And the last time when you famously called me a bear and took a nap on my rug, I'm terrible at calling tops and bottoms and understanding what the price is. One thing the one thing I'm certain of is I am terrible at

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knowing what a bull market is until after it's happened and say, oh, obviously, that was a bull market. So part of me thinks a lot of the scenes, the spectacles I saw in Bitcoin Vegas that I'm looking at on Twitter feel like top signals and maybe this was the bull market and it's already passed. Or maybe

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maybe it's got more legs and it's gonna go 10 x and then who knows what. I

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what I've learned over the years is that the safest thing both

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reputationally and more importantly mentally

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is to just focus on what really matters, which is 1 BTC equals 1 BTC.

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Who cares what the exchange rate would be at?

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I I mean,

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I was right that you were a bear, though, if I recall correctly.

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You were not wrong. Yeah. I remember messaging you right after and saying, we have to edit that clip. They were like I think

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I think we waited. It was supposed to be released

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on this on this specific was it supposed to be released on Halloween? Was it Halloween twenty twenty one? You came in during the the holidays. It was it was cold. I remember that because we were drinking scotch to warm us up, and then we're drinking scotch for other reasons.

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I maybe it was Halloween?

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Well, anyway, it was a it was a we specifically were like that episode, we delayed for, like, two or three weeks.

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And from the point I called you a bear to the point we pub and usually, we don't delay episodes.

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And from the point I called you a bear to the point we published,

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we had been we had been ripping. Like, it was just like, yeah, I was completely right that you were a bear. Yeah. But, so maybe maybe you're a bear again. I mean, I I think

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it's kind of hilarious that we're over a hundred thousand dollars.

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Yeah. Ross is free. There's a Bitcoin strategic reserve.

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You know, governments are talking about

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buying Bitcoin.

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The price actually since last dispatch, which was last week,

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is up Mhmm. Because I record the sats per dollar,

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and it was actually 954

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sats per dollar last last episode, and now it's $9.51.

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And Twitter's calling top signals is actually kind of a bullish signal.

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But all that said, I do agree that, ultimately, at the end of the day, people should just be staying humble and stacking sets and and thinking long term and and and not taking leverage and being very conservative always because, you know, who who the hell knows what Bitcoin price? And it is a weird

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this cycle has been

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I don't know. It's different. I don't know different how, but it's definitely

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a different beast. I I don't think we should really be necessarily comparing it to past stuff.

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Right? Yeah. Agreed.

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Anyway,

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we when I first reached out to you, I mean, there's two there first of all, it's great catching up to you. I mean, you're a legend in the space, at least to those who are paying attention.

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And you're a good friend, and it's great to catch up.

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And now that I'm trying to reduce conference

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cycles, I'm trying to, you know, make the podcast more consistent. Well, at least dispatch more consistent because Rev Whole Recap, we've done every week for seven years. Yeah? I've gotta say you've done it the right way. If you wanna reduce conference travel, you just made Nashville the place that other people wanna come to. Yeah. That that's the next level.

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That was the trick. The trick was,

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get people to to visit me

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and,

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done.

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Then I just have a half an hour or twenty minute

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twenty minute commute instead of getting on a plane.

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That was definitely the move.

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But I wanted to talk about your project, Sigbash,

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and then you also launched a book.

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Yeah. So

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so we'll talk about both. I think the best place to start is let's talk start with SigBash. What is what is SigBash? Why should people care? What are you trying to do there?

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So

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just gonna drop in on that. Okay. Well, I hope we everyone on the on that's watching is familiar with the concept of multisig and what multisig is. If not, I'll Most people are.

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Alright. So I don't have to explain

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why you would want multisig.

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The problem

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right now with multisig that I see at least is that you've basically got two models for people who are gonna be in your multisig quorum. You've got friends and family, the uncle Jim model,

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where if you want to set up a two of three, you have to find a couple of other friends or family members who you trust

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and who are worthy key holders to be a part of your quorum.

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That's great for a lot of scenarios,

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and it's not ideal for plenty of other scenarios. You don't wanna suddenly promote your friends and family into de facto,

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not financial institutions, but find people who are

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playing the role the traditional financial institutions play. Maybe they don't wanna play that role either.

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Of course, there are plenty of companies that are willing to be key holders for you. I won't name them,

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because

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I don't wanna speak ill of them, but I think there's a gap in

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the market between that friends and family model and the current financial institution model where

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the available keyholders you have that are companies are all

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regulated

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KYC AML requiring companies that offer you access to the dollar system.

233
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That's great if you wanna maybe take a a loan against your Bitcoin in a multisig. I can absolutely see a use case for this. But there's probably

234
00:16:37.975 --> 00:16:49.380
to my mind, there is a third use case where you don't want friends and family and you don't wanna dox yourself to a third party. You just want someone else you can trust, some key that you can break glass in case of emergency.

235
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When I

236
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I was thinking about that. Actually,

237
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I'll give you the thought process. It was right after literally, I'm I'm gonna dox myself horribly here. It was right after my daughter was born.

238
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And, I mean, I'm in the hospital room with my wife waiting for them to bring my daughter to us, for the evening.

239
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Your mind is reeling in that scenario. Either you're taking on this whole new level of responsibility, this whole new chapter of your life. And, of course,

240
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my brain at least ran away screaming for fifteen minutes and started thinking about multisig and how I wanted to use multisig

241
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and why I wasn't using it. I

242
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had why my existing multisig was weren't quite working for me. And I said, someone should fix this problem.

243
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Two months later, when I come up for error because you've got a newborn, I start working on what is now sig bash.

244
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The basic idea is built on top of

245
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it's not my original idea.

246
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It's Michael Flaxman's idea, what he called blinded xPubs.

247
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I don't love the name of that because it implies blind sign in and blinded xPubs aren't quite that, but I'll explain the concept.

248
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The idea behind blinded ex pub is you can take an XPUB, derive a random path from it,

249
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derive a random path for

250
00:18:05.905 --> 00:18:08.640
it, derive a child key using that random path.

251
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And if you've got the randomness right, the holder of the XPub won't know anything about the child key until you present them the key for signing.

252
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So I thought about that for a bit, and I thought and I thought. And I realized, well, if you bake that into a client server model where the master XPub was on the server and the master ex pub was on the server and the child duration happened

253
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on the client in the user's browser, you could create a key

254
00:18:31.495 --> 00:18:34.235
that the server never knew about at any point in time.

255
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Why is that interesting? Well,

256
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multisig by design right now, traditionally CDSA multisig,

257
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always, in every case, accidentally doxes you to your Multisig members

258
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because you have to share your expo with them, which means,

259
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:57.315
everyone else in the forum knows everything about you. They know your they can find out your transaction history and your account balance trivially.

260
00:18:57.934 --> 00:19:06.595
You probably don't want that for a lot of multiseq use cases. Once you realize that, it's pretty limiting multiseq. You have to have this whole other level of trust in the people that you're in the quorum with.

261
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If you solve that problem, now you've got the ability to have a sort of break glass in case of emergency multisig

262
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where you don't have to worry about KYC AML. You don't have to worry about trusting,

263
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some third party.

264
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You can just

265
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grab a key from them, put them in your quorum, and until you need them, they might not even know that you exist.

266
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So that's the idea behind sig bash. If you go to sigbash.com,

267
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you will see it's you can fill out a quick form, press a button, you'll get a magic ex pub that I don't know anything

268
00:19:38.870 --> 00:19:42.250
about. You can drop down your multisig, and, hopefully, you never need to use it.

269
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And if you never need to use it, I never know anything about you.

270
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Once you get to the point where you use it, of course, you're sharing a PSVT with me, and then I know what you need.

271
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I know your information, but, hopefully, it never comes to that. It gives you that peace of mind that

272
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you can actually have some escape hatch in your multisuke quorum without actually having to involve another person.

273
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Right.

274
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So let's think about this in practice. So in practice,

275
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most people when they use multisig, they're doing two of three multisig.

276
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Mhmm.

277
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If

278
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I

279
00:20:16.565 --> 00:20:17.545
if my nephew,

280
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or my friend wants to include me in their multisig, I'm one of three keys, and they hold two keys.

281
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If

282
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if if they don't need me, they can always spend the money they can always spend the money without me because they have two keys.

283
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:36.560
If they lose one of their keys and they need me, they ask me to sign.

284
00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:38.800
Now in that normal process

285
00:20:39.340 --> 00:20:44.080
and there's there's companies that offer it like Unchained and Casa. But in that normal process,

286
00:20:45.655 --> 00:20:48.155
by me having one key in the quorum,

287
00:20:48.935 --> 00:21:04.279
I always know their balances. So I'm trying to help my buddy out, and I want to hold a key for him just in case something happens to his key or something happens to him. Mhmm. But I have this additional liability of I know exactly how much his savings are,

288
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which and every transaction he makes

289
00:21:07.620 --> 00:21:09.080
Yeah. Which is

290
00:21:09.585 --> 00:21:17.205
super compromising information. And and particularly with friends, like, you really don't wanna know that information. And when it comes to companies,

291
00:21:17.745 --> 00:21:23.284
even if those companies mean well, there can be data leaks. They can be compelled to hand over information.

292
00:21:24.090 --> 00:21:29.309
That information could then get compromised. And as we've known as as the freaks on dispatch know,

293
00:21:29.850 --> 00:21:33.710
the Bitcoin blockchain is forever. It's gonna outlast all of us. So

294
00:21:34.090 --> 00:21:35.630
a compromise that happens

295
00:21:36.025 --> 00:21:40.684
could affect you down the line ten years from now, fifteen years from now, twenty years from now.

296
00:21:41.465 --> 00:21:43.804
So the beauty of this model with SigBash

297
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is

298
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in a best case scenario,

299
00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:52.680
I have two I have two keys. SIGBASH holds one key.

300
00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:59.000
And if I never lose my two keys, which, let's be honest, in practice, you're not trying to lose keys,

301
00:21:59.300 --> 00:22:00.200
then SIGBASH

302
00:22:02.465 --> 00:22:04.005
knows anything about

303
00:22:04.705 --> 00:22:12.645
my balance my transaction history, anything like that. Now at time of signing, if I if if for some reason I do lose a key and I need SigBash to sign,

304
00:22:13.105 --> 00:22:14.405
then you would know

305
00:22:14.899 --> 00:22:22.120
balance and transaction history, and it would also be backward looking. Like, if there was a bunch of transactions in the past, you would also know that. Right?

306
00:22:22.820 --> 00:22:27.799
Yeah. I can't say too much about future plans, but I can say that at the present, yeah, that's true.

307
00:22:28.525 --> 00:22:29.025
Yeah.

308
00:22:30.125 --> 00:22:33.105
Okay. So that's awesome. And to your point about

309
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becoming a father, I will say that

310
00:22:38.845 --> 00:22:43.665
when you're single or even if you're married and you don't have kids yet,

311
00:22:45.130 --> 00:22:48.430
it's easy to be like, well, my threat model is

312
00:22:49.050 --> 00:22:54.590
if I die, like, the Bitcoin dies with me. But as soon as the next generation comes around,

313
00:22:55.130 --> 00:23:00.735
it's it's something that I think every parent, every Bitcoin parent is thinking about, which is

314
00:23:01.915 --> 00:23:03.135
I wanna make sure

315
00:23:04.075 --> 00:23:08.815
the reason I'm stacking Sats is is for my kids and their kids.

316
00:23:10.315 --> 00:23:12.635
And I wanna make sure that they don't

317
00:23:13.460 --> 00:23:17.080
that that they're able to access the Bitcoin if something happens to me.

318
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But, also, I wanna make sure

319
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that,

320
00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:26.040
they aren't actually an attack vector themselves and can't necessarily

321
00:23:28.745 --> 00:23:42.845
you don't want them to be pressured or you don't want them to be able to necessarily access the funds while you're still alive. And so that's the beauty of multisig. That's why multisig is so is one that is is so powerful and so many people recommend it. I think multisig is great for organizations

322
00:23:43.390 --> 00:23:44.370
because you don't want,

323
00:23:44.830 --> 00:23:50.049
you know, the CEO or one person in an organization like Open Sats to be able to spend the entire treasury.

324
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But it's also incredibly powerful when you're thinking about inheritance and you're thinking about robust security

325
00:23:56.895 --> 00:24:01.475
where you wanna be protected from theft, but also you wanna be able to pass down

326
00:24:02.015 --> 00:24:03.555
Bitcoin over the years.

327
00:24:04.335 --> 00:24:05.555
Is that a good summary?

328
00:24:05.935 --> 00:24:06.435
Absolutely.

329
00:24:07.935 --> 00:24:16.820
One thing an unrelated anecdote maybe, actually related anecdote I'll add. One of the most clarifying experiences for me as a Bitcoin over the years was working at,

330
00:24:17.760 --> 00:24:21.059
I'm gonna say Bitcoin twenty one twenty twenty one in the conference hall,

331
00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:43.515
working the Unchained booth when I was their VP of engineering and having users come up. And I thought I'd be talking through, like, you know, different technical nuances and what is multisig and all that. The vast majority of the conversations I had were people with that concern, people who said, okay. I've I've been holding this Bitcoin, some of them for years and years, some of them had only gotten to it that cycle, saying, okay. I understand. I get it. I'm a believer.

332
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.100
How do I make sure I pass this on to the next generation?

333
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.140
That's the In a safe way.

334
00:24:49.520 --> 00:24:50.020
Yeah.

335
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:55.620
How do I how do I secure my ease? How do I make sure that when I'm gone,

336
00:24:56.885 --> 00:25:01.945
the people that I care about get to have my stats? That they're not that it's not just a a donation to everyone.

337
00:25:05.605 --> 00:25:07.065
So yeah. I mean,

338
00:25:07.525 --> 00:25:09.385
as soon as you have a kid, it's like,

339
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:11.179
you know, it's the

340
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.020
anyone who and it's not even as soon as you have a kid.

341
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:18.700
It's like the three months leading up to birth.

342
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:30.355
I think it's just like when you go into, like, full panic mode. And not full panic mode, but you're like, shit. I have to get my my act together. I need to get my priorities in order. And if you're a Bitcoiner,

343
00:25:31.135 --> 00:25:31.955
that includes

344
00:25:32.575 --> 00:25:37.235
how am I securing my Bitcoin? What is my threat model? How do I do this in a responsible way?

345
00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:40.080
It hits you like a bag of bricks.

346
00:25:40.620 --> 00:25:41.600
So SigVash,

347
00:25:41.980 --> 00:25:42.480
specifically

348
00:25:42.860 --> 00:25:46.480
can we go through the process a little bit? So I go to the site. Sure.

349
00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:48.640
Go ahead. I go to the site.

350
00:25:50.414 --> 00:25:57.475
It's cool. It asked me very simple questions, like, when would I like it to be signed? It could be when asked, after the state, after this block

351
00:25:57.934 --> 00:25:59.715
height, after passkey authorization.

352
00:26:00.654 --> 00:26:07.920
I assume that's not enforced on a protocol level. That's just something that you're enforcing on your side. Like, we're not gonna sign in that situation.

353
00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:08.960
Yeah.

354
00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:12.559
There's stuff like signing of mining hash rate.

355
00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:15.660
That's some people conditions, like lowest

356
00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:18.000
Yeah. Only signing of that?

357
00:26:19.875 --> 00:26:24.135
Different so it turns out a lot of different people want multi sig

358
00:26:24.515 --> 00:26:27.895
signing for specific conditions, like, hey. I'd like

359
00:26:28.355 --> 00:26:34.200
an OTC contract that only executes when the price is this much, or I'm doing

360
00:26:35.380 --> 00:26:43.005
sort of OTC hash rate derivatives, that type of thing. Most users won't be into that. I what I've learned is the best will say don't it's either

361
00:26:43.405 --> 00:26:47.265
don't sign until after this date or don't sign until after this price because my

362
00:26:47.565 --> 00:26:58.785
my I'm worried that, the other person in the multisig has paper hands and will sell below a certain price. I don't love that we're a price oracle here, but there were some users that have asked for it.

363
00:26:59.220 --> 00:26:59.720
Right.

364
00:27:00.580 --> 00:27:05.799
After this date is is cool for just a simple point of view, it's like

365
00:27:06.260 --> 00:27:08.360
so, like, I give my air one key,

366
00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:10.040
I hold one key,

367
00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:11.480
and,

368
00:27:13.025 --> 00:27:17.205
like, maybe I say, like, twenty years or ten years or whatever, if you don't

369
00:27:17.664 --> 00:27:18.164
if

370
00:27:18.465 --> 00:27:28.250
that one key isn't able to sign with you until I mean, you're enforcing on your side, but it's a simple it's a very simple thing for inheritance. It's, like, very, very clean.

371
00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:40.570
To me, that's the most I mean, there's a tendency I have as an engineer to just build all these different conditions and go down the rabbit hole. But most people would wanna say, you know, after this date, if I'm not if I'm not around, if I'm not not responding, assume the worst.

372
00:27:41.425 --> 00:27:45.925
Yeah. I love the idea of just simple tools that users can use in different creative ways.

373
00:27:47.585 --> 00:27:48.965
So then what is

374
00:27:49.985 --> 00:27:51.765
so then I do that, and

375
00:27:52.225 --> 00:27:54.405
I request a key. Yep.

376
00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:04.320
The what is the business model? Like, when do you charge when it comes time to sign? And then how much are you charging? Like, how does that work?

377
00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:06.240
So right now, it's

378
00:28:06.540 --> 00:28:07.600
completely free.

379
00:28:08.645 --> 00:28:11.065
That's that's not gonna be the case,

380
00:28:12.405 --> 00:28:13.225
in the future.

381
00:28:13.924 --> 00:28:14.424
But

382
00:28:14.725 --> 00:28:18.105
if my long term view of the business model is short term,

383
00:28:18.485 --> 00:28:21.065
I wanna get feedback from people who are actually

384
00:28:21.525 --> 00:28:22.424
using multisig,

385
00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:28.570
Trying to understand their use cases. Now that we've enabled just point and click, you get NextPub,

386
00:28:28.950 --> 00:28:30.490
what are you gonna do with that?

387
00:28:31.270 --> 00:28:37.529
We're it's been about twelve months now, so I've gotten a decent amount of feedback. So where I see the business model going is the

388
00:28:39.635 --> 00:28:41.975
the version on the website is gonna be

389
00:28:42.275 --> 00:28:48.455
pretty much free. We might take a transaction fee on signing, but it would be just enough for spam protection.

390
00:28:48.995 --> 00:28:49.975
And Okay.

391
00:28:51.235 --> 00:28:56.210
So the model I'm thinking of is what CloudFlare did back in the day. I'm not sure how many,

392
00:28:56.830 --> 00:29:01.410
watchers are familiar with it. But the idea is most people will get a free plan.

393
00:29:01.790 --> 00:29:09.075
And then when you actually outgrow the free plan, you want something more like an on premise solution, your own sig bash. You won't you won't want the shared infrastructure. You want

394
00:29:09.715 --> 00:29:12.294
for the people who are using, say, coin based custody

395
00:29:13.075 --> 00:29:13.575
or,

396
00:29:14.995 --> 00:29:16.455
something beefier than,

397
00:29:17.955 --> 00:29:22.934
the friends and family model, they're not gonna wanna share the restructure. They're gonna wanna host their own sig bash internally.

398
00:29:24.445 --> 00:29:26.080
So sigbash.com

399
00:29:26.080 --> 00:29:33.140
will be, hopefully, as long as I can handle it. It'll be free or as minimal as possible, just taking a small transaction fee.

400
00:29:33.520 --> 00:29:34.740
And it'll be

401
00:29:35.120 --> 00:29:40.935
a way to advertise. You have this capability now. Would you like your own on premise or self hosted version?

402
00:29:42.375 --> 00:29:49.915
Then what? Will I just, like, host that on the start nine, or is would it be more complicated than that? I would love to do it on a start nine. You probably

403
00:29:50.295 --> 00:29:53.515
the thing is you on the back end, when we sign,

404
00:29:54.055 --> 00:29:59.900
PSBTs, it's not like those keys live in memory. You have your own air gap signer. So you're gonna need more than one machine.

405
00:30:00.760 --> 00:30:01.260
Right.

406
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:02.200
So

407
00:30:02.760 --> 00:30:11.845
Fair enough. If somebody asks because then you just compromise the start like, if I have a start nine, like, sitting on my desk, and you just compromise that. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

408
00:30:12.705 --> 00:30:13.205
I

409
00:30:13.745 --> 00:30:15.205
I'm willing to talk to people

410
00:30:15.825 --> 00:30:30.530
over what their needs are, but if I if you give me the choice between, you know, somebody pays me and I build them something insecure, but it's self hosted, I don't really see the the value in that. I'd rather So are you thinking of that more, like is that more, like, artisanal? Like, are you, like, actually

411
00:30:31.070 --> 00:30:35.810
going in and setting up the server and do like, is that a

412
00:30:36.270 --> 00:30:38.130
Yeah. I do a drop in for a day.

413
00:30:38.910 --> 00:30:39.410
Yeah.

414
00:30:40.655 --> 00:30:47.715
I I really don't like the idea of artisanal because one by one, it that ends up being insecure just accidentally. You know? You

415
00:30:48.095 --> 00:30:54.830
you end up having a solution that works for everyone and also this one weird pick me thing that somebody paid you for once. That's a bad idea. I

416
00:30:55.210 --> 00:31:05.309
see j c b asking in the chat. It's sig bash dot com. Yeah. Go for it. Asking for the domain. Play around with it. Yeah. I also see Anon.

417
00:31:05.850 --> 00:31:10.205
By the way, Mab 21, highest zap of the day, 10,000 sats. Thank you, sir.

418
00:31:10.745 --> 00:31:11.544
And Anan,

419
00:31:11.865 --> 00:31:20.845
said he still doesn't know how to log into apps with an extension using an iPhone. And at this point, I'm afraid to ask, which is ironic because you just asked the question.

420
00:31:22.280 --> 00:31:23.100
There is

421
00:31:24.360 --> 00:31:27.500
a Safari signer for iPhone on Noster

422
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:29.020
called NoStash.

423
00:31:30.280 --> 00:31:31.900
I think it's in test flight.

424
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.380
But if you just search NoStash, it should come up.

425
00:31:38.045 --> 00:31:43.105
And then Brian just zapped us a hundred thousand sats and said fat zaps only. Thank you, Brian. Nice.

426
00:31:44.845 --> 00:31:46.705
I think dude. I mean,

427
00:31:47.165 --> 00:31:51.025
maybe the freaks will hate me for this, but, like, I think you should charge

428
00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:52.549
a small fee

429
00:31:53.010 --> 00:31:56.390
on generating the key in the first place, and then you should charge

430
00:31:57.730 --> 00:32:01.190
something on signing it. And just make it a nice sustainable

431
00:32:02.769 --> 00:32:04.230
project. Like, why

432
00:32:05.085 --> 00:32:06.625
There's something to be said about

433
00:32:07.965 --> 00:32:11.184
about having, like, a monetary incentive and sustainable

434
00:32:12.605 --> 00:32:13.985
I hear SaaS flow to

435
00:32:14.285 --> 00:32:21.730
support it. I hear what you're saying. And I'm of two minds of this. Let's talk through it. You can open Yeah. Business on air.

436
00:32:22.270 --> 00:32:42.065
On the one hand, the steel menu argument, if you don't know what the product is, then you or the product is the argument. You should be suspicious of someone who's just giving away free keys and signing. Right? So just full disclosure, what I'm getting out of this right now is market feedback. I'm finding out from Bitcoiners. Yeah. And are they gonna use this now that you're getting these xPubs? No. Yeah. That makes sense to me right now. Yes.

437
00:32:43.565 --> 00:32:49.000
If I really want this to be useful, then there are two things I have to be mindful of. One is that

438
00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:52.360
if it feels wrong to me to

439
00:32:53.540 --> 00:33:00.335
build a tool that users will rely on, to keep them safe at night and then say, okay. Well, the worst just happened.

440
00:33:00.635 --> 00:33:03.615
In in case of emergency, break glass. Now I'm going to

441
00:33:03.915 --> 00:33:10.895
take my pound of flesh from you. It feels a little bit exploitative. I need to find a right pricing model where

442
00:33:11.770 --> 00:33:16.590
any user who finds themselves in that in that scenario would say, okay. I'm comfortable paying this fee.

443
00:33:17.690 --> 00:33:18.190
Upfront,

444
00:33:18.970 --> 00:33:20.750
maybe that happens in the future.

445
00:33:22.410 --> 00:33:26.280
I My issue my issue is not the if

446
00:33:26.895 --> 00:33:41.610
you pay, you're the product. Yeah. Which, by the way, I think is a little bit of a psyop because there's more nuance to that because you can pay and still be the product, which is, like, what Yeah. Like, x is in YouTube. Like, you're paying and you're still being data harvested

447
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:48.350
So it's not like a cut and dry rule. The bigger issue for me is

448
00:33:49.929 --> 00:33:51.950
my example earlier, which is

449
00:33:52.570 --> 00:34:05.294
I give a key to my air, and I say he can't sign for ten years. That means I'm relying on you to still have the service in ten years. You need to be. And I I want you to be happy about it and sustainable. Like, I want you to still

450
00:34:05.595 --> 00:34:12.015
like, that's a big task. Like, people don't realize. Like, people look and they're like, oh, like, this guy, like,

451
00:34:12.630 --> 00:34:22.809
has been doing this thing for eight years. Like, great for him. Like, eight years is a long time. Fifteen years is a long time. And, like, to stay focused and to have it well maintained and to have it with good uptime.

452
00:34:24.755 --> 00:34:30.215
Yeah. It's not that's something I would pay for, and I would feel a little bit concerned that it wouldn't be around

453
00:34:30.915 --> 00:34:33.655
if I wasn't paying for it is kind of my thought process.

454
00:34:34.195 --> 00:34:42.109
Okay. So I'm we're turning this into a user interview. You're obviously you're a great multisig user interview. Let me ask you. Would you be more comfortable on there.

455
00:34:42.569 --> 00:34:45.710
Would you be more comfortable paying upfront or paying at signing time?

456
00:34:49.930 --> 00:34:54.829
So Unchained used to have the model where you pay at signing time, and I think they got rid of it.

457
00:34:55.765 --> 00:34:58.665
And what the what they did was it was a percentage

458
00:34:59.045 --> 00:34:59.785
of what

459
00:35:00.085 --> 00:35:00.905
you were signing

460
00:35:01.365 --> 00:35:01.865
Mhmm.

461
00:35:03.445 --> 00:35:07.225
Which I think is fair because I think, you know,

462
00:35:08.725 --> 00:35:10.325
presume like, it's not like

463
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:14.460
it's it's I'm paying you a portion of the money that you're saving me,

464
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:18.059
because otherwise, I wouldn't be able to access that money.

465
00:35:19.240 --> 00:35:22.940
Like, in that situation, I've already lost my my one of my keys.

466
00:35:23.335 --> 00:35:27.355
Mhmm. And you're actually providing it's almost like a recovery service.

467
00:35:29.335 --> 00:35:37.115
The upfront also kinda makes sense to me. At least I mean, you have all the different conditions, but at least in the after this time has passed. Right? Because

468
00:35:38.040 --> 00:35:39.980
maybe you charge more if it's

469
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:41.740
and if if I

470
00:35:42.040 --> 00:35:43.820
if I say I

471
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:50.595
I'm gonna need you to sign after ten years versus after five years, maybe you charge maybe it graduates based on

472
00:35:51.474 --> 00:35:55.095
that time period because then the service if someone comes in

473
00:35:55.555 --> 00:36:04.535
if someone comes in and is like, I'm only gonna want you to sign after twenty years, that's a insane commitment. That's like a marriage level commitment.

474
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:05.460
Yeah.

475
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:14.260
And, like, maybe you should be charging them more in that situation. And I think the user would be I think that's completely reasonable ask of the user.

476
00:36:14.640 --> 00:36:15.140
Okay.

477
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.380
And then on the Bitcoin side, in the Bitcoin sense of things,

478
00:36:22.365 --> 00:36:31.265
Satsflow upfront is worth way more than Satsflow in twenty years. Like, what's the price of Bitcoin in twenty years? Yeah. So from from your perspective,

479
00:36:32.925 --> 00:36:34.705
upfront payment, I think,

480
00:36:35.450 --> 00:36:37.069
is more appreciated. So

481
00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:48.589
there's I so I I can go in both directions. And I think maybe the answer is both directions. Maybe the answer is and then the last but not least is, like,

482
00:36:49.475 --> 00:36:51.095
if you don't have upfront payment,

483
00:36:51.635 --> 00:36:52.375
it's so

484
00:36:52.915 --> 00:36:53.415
dedausible.

485
00:36:53.715 --> 00:36:58.055
It's like, I just, like, go and just cancel and request keys from you.

486
00:36:58.355 --> 00:36:58.855
Yeah.

487
00:36:59.955 --> 00:37:01.415
That's absolutely true.

488
00:37:05.210 --> 00:37:05.710
I

489
00:37:06.410 --> 00:37:11.230
here's the thing. I have information that you don't, which is that I've been using this feedback to build

490
00:37:11.849 --> 00:37:13.310
the SIGBash v two.

491
00:37:13.930 --> 00:37:18.109
And I'm Nice. We're luck I'm reluctant to announce new features while I'm still

492
00:37:19.525 --> 00:37:20.965
working on v one.

493
00:37:21.445 --> 00:37:22.585
But I will say

494
00:37:23.205 --> 00:37:23.705
Breaking.

495
00:37:25.605 --> 00:37:32.425
Maybe there's a v two in the works. Maybe. Maybe. Do I save that for Marty? Is that for TFTC? Or do we come back and talk about this? No.

496
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:33.660
Screw Marty.

497
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:36.140
This is this is the real show.

498
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.220
Right? This is

499
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:42.380
I do like the idea in general of

500
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:43.580
the user

501
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:45.820
paying upfront,

502
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:46.780
but

503
00:37:48.325 --> 00:37:51.065
getting something out of it in return besides just assurance

504
00:37:51.365 --> 00:37:53.145
assurances. Maybe some sort

505
00:37:55.205 --> 00:38:03.225
of maybe you could view that payment as maybe sort of collateral on an insurance policy where if they need to sign, they get it back in the future. May I don't know.

506
00:38:04.220 --> 00:38:05.900
It one of the hard things to

507
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:16.240
that I have to factor into this is just what you said. Sats are worth a lot more in the future. So if you give me a few sets now and you're asking me to sign in twenty years,

508
00:38:17.225 --> 00:38:21.085
do I hang on to your sets and give them back to you and do

509
00:38:21.945 --> 00:38:24.205
something with them in between? Is that

510
00:38:26.025 --> 00:38:26.345
is

511
00:38:26.985 --> 00:38:28.045
I don't know. I

512
00:38:28.505 --> 00:38:32.640
lots of different users have lots of different opinions what I found. People are very reticent to pay

513
00:38:33.279 --> 00:38:39.380
for things. Bitcoiners are very reticent to part with their stats. And if I'm gonna ask them to do that, I wanna make sure I'm giving them

514
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:43.299
enough value that I to make it worth their while.

515
00:38:44.160 --> 00:38:46.579
What I have noticed is Bitcoiners are

516
00:38:47.445 --> 00:38:49.545
not that hesitant to pay for

517
00:38:50.405 --> 00:38:54.505
insurance or inheritance related stuff, though. Yeah. That's true. That's true.

518
00:38:57.685 --> 00:39:03.779
Yeah. I don't know. I don't like the security deposit thing because then you're just adding another piece on your plate, which is, like, future SaaS

519
00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:05.119
liabilities. Yeah.

520
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:11.380
And I think you could probably just re the the biggest issue with charging upfront is

521
00:39:13.839 --> 00:39:17.460
this these setups require some creativity on the user part.

522
00:39:18.145 --> 00:39:22.245
And what you really want them to be able to do is create a key,

523
00:39:22.545 --> 00:39:30.785
play around with it Yeah. Load it into Sparrow, make a multisig, and then probably, if they really like it, then do it all over again. Yeah.

524
00:39:31.265 --> 00:39:33.125
So you kinda have that issue,

525
00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:38.780
which doesn't like, if if you just charge when signing happens,

526
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:51.654
a percentage of the amount. And the beautiful thing there is you're signing a Bitcoin transaction. So it's like, yeah. I'll sign your transaction. It just has to include this percentage fee to my Bitcoin address and the PSPT.

527
00:39:52.355 --> 00:39:52.855
Mhmm.

528
00:39:53.394 --> 00:39:55.575
And so it's, like, relatively clean.

529
00:39:56.115 --> 00:40:01.575
You kinda solve you kinda solve for a lot of things. But I I think it's definitely something you should consider.

530
00:40:02.355 --> 00:40:07.310
I mean, look. This is all all of this only matters if it's actually a used product and this is successful.

531
00:40:08.330 --> 00:40:09.550
But I would say

532
00:40:10.970 --> 00:40:13.790
that I have a little experience with this with

533
00:40:14.090 --> 00:40:14.590
my,

534
00:40:15.275 --> 00:40:19.295
I had a dead man switch service final message. I remember. That was really cool.

535
00:40:19.995 --> 00:40:20.495
And,

536
00:40:22.395 --> 00:40:26.335
you know, even if you have a few users, you just feel this massive responsibility

537
00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:30.960
that these people are expecting the service to be up for a while.

538
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:37.040
And so when we what we did was we charged on a time based base on a time based basis.

539
00:40:37.500 --> 00:40:43.005
Mhmm. And then, like, there was just better options that appeared. And, like, I really think, like,

540
00:40:44.204 --> 00:40:50.545
it just it wasn't gonna be we couldn't, like, ethically maintain it. So we had to give we gave, like, a two year

541
00:40:52.125 --> 00:40:53.825
a two year warning period

542
00:40:54.204 --> 00:41:03.280
of, like, we're gonna keep the service up. We didn't allow new people to join, and it's like a whole thing. So, like, if you're getting this is not something that and I don't

543
00:41:03.660 --> 00:41:04.720
I'm not making

544
00:41:06.540 --> 00:41:12.275
if anyone is going to run a free service for twenty years, you're the type of person that would do it.

545
00:41:13.055 --> 00:41:18.255
So I'm not, like, making a accusation here or whatever. But my point is is, like, don't just willy nilly

546
00:41:19.135 --> 00:41:22.995
and I don't think you're will you you overthink everything, if anything. But

547
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.580
don't just, like, jump into it because then you're without

548
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:31.300
having a long term strategy. Like, you should have some kind of long term strategy of sustainability

549
00:41:31.600 --> 00:41:33.940
and why you're gonna keep the service up and

550
00:41:34.560 --> 00:41:35.060
So

551
00:41:36.414 --> 00:41:37.714
totally There's a lot of responsibility.

552
00:41:38.174 --> 00:41:58.319
Should I answer this message in the chat first before I respond to that? Yeah. You can you can answer any message in the chat. Alright. So we've got it here. My permission. Asking what about the task code? All these transactions are a nightmare. No. I am not a tax attorney and I am not your tax attorney, but at least in my jurisdiction, the taxable event is when you cash out into fiat.

553
00:41:58.700 --> 00:42:02.160
If you're just moving the coin from one address to another, that is not

554
00:42:02.700 --> 00:42:03.599
a de facto,

555
00:42:04.059 --> 00:42:07.200
a taxable event. You can certainly construct that in such a way where

556
00:42:07.545 --> 00:42:08.525
you might have

557
00:42:08.825 --> 00:42:09.964
to deal with Well,

558
00:42:10.424 --> 00:42:13.085
the the taxable event would be paying you for the service.

559
00:42:14.025 --> 00:42:15.565
Got it. So for me,

560
00:42:16.025 --> 00:42:16.765
got it.

561
00:42:17.224 --> 00:42:21.005
And then for for you for you, it would just be regular income tax.

562
00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:26.930
Yeah. And then for the user, they were if they pay a fee, they're supposed to pay cap gains tax on it. Right.

563
00:42:27.309 --> 00:42:27.809
Savings

564
00:42:28.109 --> 00:42:29.010
on the profit.

565
00:42:29.630 --> 00:42:33.410
But I don't think that really like, that's just paying with Bitcoin on things.

566
00:42:33.710 --> 00:42:34.450
That's just

567
00:42:35.465 --> 00:42:39.165
Yeah. It's the same problem with any other anyone else who accepts Bitcoin for payment.

568
00:42:39.625 --> 00:42:42.685
Yeah. I don't I think people overthink that a little bit.

569
00:42:44.185 --> 00:42:49.885
What I to a quick response to what you said. What I've been toying around with is the idea that you could have

570
00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:51.400
either

571
00:42:51.780 --> 00:42:59.320
either Cygnet coins would be issued for free, or we would issue what I call exploding keys, where you get a key to toy around with, but

572
00:42:59.620 --> 00:43:06.040
in thirty days, let's say, that key is no longer valid. So you set up I like that. Just to just to kick the tires.

573
00:43:07.395 --> 00:43:09.495
And then anything beyond that, you pay for.

574
00:43:11.795 --> 00:43:12.935
Yeah. I like that.

575
00:43:13.235 --> 00:43:15.095
That way, you get the best of both worlds.

576
00:43:15.875 --> 00:43:17.015
Yeah. I mean, maybe

577
00:43:17.315 --> 00:43:17.815
maybe

578
00:43:18.369 --> 00:43:23.109
the best model is up front, so you're not holding money hostage in the future. And maybe

579
00:43:23.810 --> 00:43:29.349
depending on what options they choose, it changes what the price is, and you just have transparent upfront pricing.

580
00:43:30.290 --> 00:43:30.790
Yeah.

581
00:43:32.454 --> 00:43:35.494
I will say in the previous unchained model

582
00:43:35.895 --> 00:43:41.755
Mhmm. There was, like, there's weird situation where they pay with fee. There's weird situations where, like,

583
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:54.140
maybe you didn't lose access to the second key, but you're having trouble recovering it and all this different stuff. And then it puts the user in a weird position where they have to, like, think, like, am I gonna pay 1%

584
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.500
to make this transaction,

585
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:56.300
or

586
00:43:57.125 --> 00:44:02.425
am I gonna wait two weeks or three weeks and try and figure it out? So it kinda adds, like, a little bit of

587
00:44:02.805 --> 00:44:04.265
mental burden to it.

588
00:44:07.605 --> 00:44:12.025
I don't know. Upfront, maybe it's cleaner. But I don't know what sig batch v two is. Now I'm, like, curious.

589
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:19.020
And it seems like you're not gonna are you gonna give us any information? V two. Under promise, over deliver. That's my motto.

590
00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:23.500
So maybe sig bash v two doesn't exist. Maybe maybe I didn't say anything.

591
00:44:24.120 --> 00:44:35.405
It sounds like it exists. Well, if if you're planning on doing a major overhaul, then just leave it free for now is what my opinion would be Got it. While you figure while you figure things out.

592
00:44:36.025 --> 00:44:39.005
But I think this could be an incredibly useful service.

593
00:44:40.450 --> 00:44:41.670
It's something that,

594
00:44:42.530 --> 00:44:44.630
I would personally find very valuable,

595
00:44:45.570 --> 00:44:48.150
and I'd be happy happy to pay for it.

596
00:44:48.610 --> 00:44:50.370
I'm glad to hear that. I've been focusing

597
00:44:50.690 --> 00:44:56.025
I took a step back, and I wanted to focus on building something that not just Bitcoiners would use, but

598
00:44:56.485 --> 00:45:05.065
that people who are interested in Bitcoin would use. Like, my mother has been interested in Bitcoin for a decade, and I can't call her a Bitcoin user, which is, at this

599
00:45:05.490 --> 00:45:09.330
at this point, it's a little bit painful for me because of of all the people in the world. You know?

600
00:45:11.250 --> 00:45:15.990
But it's and it's not due to lack of ability on her part. It's that there's a certain

601
00:45:16.290 --> 00:45:22.095
percentage of the population who were never gonna get quite comfortable with the idea of x pubs or seed phrases.

602
00:45:22.795 --> 00:45:24.575
How do we serve them

603
00:45:25.195 --> 00:45:25.695
without

604
00:45:26.235 --> 00:45:29.375
accidentally forcing them to, like, a wild of Satoshi situation into

605
00:45:29.835 --> 00:45:36.575
something where they just Yeah. People who are just comfortable with point and clicking and scanning QR codes and face ID, how do we help them?

606
00:45:38.190 --> 00:45:44.290
Well, I mean, the other thing I mean and we live in a brave new world now. I think a lot of people,

607
00:45:44.590 --> 00:45:47.170
when it comes to inheritance, are just going to

608
00:45:47.950 --> 00:45:48.770
which I,

609
00:45:49.845 --> 00:45:57.465
you know, I I want to give them tools that don't make this the case, but a lot of people are just gonna go into, like, iBit or one of the ETFs

610
00:45:58.085 --> 00:46:00.985
and just have, like, Charles Schwab handle inheritance.

611
00:46:03.299 --> 00:46:07.160
Oh, man. This this might I'll try not to turn this into a book talk.

612
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:08.440
Wild Satoshi

613
00:46:08.740 --> 00:46:09.400
for suits.

614
00:46:09.779 --> 00:46:10.279
Yeah.

615
00:46:11.220 --> 00:46:11.720
I

616
00:46:12.260 --> 00:46:17.994
I think it's on us to give users the tools to avoid that scenario. Some people will,

617
00:46:18.695 --> 00:46:20.234
just because it's second nature.

618
00:46:21.575 --> 00:46:23.435
Some people will because of the task implications.

619
00:46:24.454 --> 00:46:29.195
I hope that there is no one who goes the iBit Charles Schwab route because

620
00:46:29.810 --> 00:46:31.430
they found Charles Schwab's

621
00:46:31.730 --> 00:46:33.750
app to be easier to deal with.

622
00:46:34.850 --> 00:46:35.590
You know,

623
00:46:36.370 --> 00:46:36.870
my

624
00:46:37.410 --> 00:46:45.214
my biggest concern is that users go the I have the custodial route or worse, the paper Bitcoin route because that's what I do is. Yeah.

625
00:46:46.555 --> 00:46:52.414
If they go that route just because it's an easier set of buttons for them to click, we'd owe them more than that.

626
00:46:53.275 --> 00:46:57.055
I agree. I mean, I think men I think the reality is many users are, though.

627
00:46:57.595 --> 00:46:58.095
Yeah.

628
00:46:58.790 --> 00:46:59.290
And,

629
00:47:00.550 --> 00:47:05.850
we have to push back. I mean, we have to provide better tools is what we have to do. And I think SigVest

630
00:47:06.230 --> 00:47:08.410
is is in the right direction on that front.

631
00:47:09.030 --> 00:47:18.505
Thanks. Working on it. The other piece the other piece there on that topic and by the way, Super Fat Hour, ride or die free, except 21,000 sides. Thank you, sir. Nice.

632
00:47:21.445 --> 00:47:23.625
Is I think I don't know how

633
00:47:27.200 --> 00:47:30.180
how professionalized do you wanna make this service,

634
00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:32.660
but

635
00:47:33.040 --> 00:47:35.140
there's a lot of demand for,

636
00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:39.140
you know, premium customer service kind of thing.

637
00:47:39.805 --> 00:47:42.865
Yeah. That that people would happily pay for.

638
00:47:43.565 --> 00:47:47.345
Yeah. And we're seeing companies like Start nine, for instance. Right? It's like,

639
00:47:47.645 --> 00:47:51.025
you can their their software is MIT licensed.

640
00:47:52.340 --> 00:47:56.120
Completely false. You can take an old computer. You can flash

641
00:47:56.580 --> 00:48:02.200
flash start nine on it. So it's like people are like, how do they make money? Well, there's a lot of people that for their home server.

642
00:48:02.660 --> 00:48:08.494
And it's not just Bitcoin. It's like, I'm keeping my child's photos. Like, I want to I I want premium

643
00:48:09.115 --> 00:48:10.895
first class customer service,

644
00:48:11.915 --> 00:48:15.135
so that I know that I have have a person I can talk to,

645
00:48:15.835 --> 00:48:17.375
that can guide me through it.

646
00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:27.250
That is the most appealing thing to me, where ideally, I'd like to build a scenario and build the software such that I don't know anything both for the user's,

647
00:48:27.630 --> 00:48:33.170
safety and for my safety. I don't know anything about your balances. I don't know anything about your addresses. I don't know anything about anything. But if you have a problem,

648
00:48:33.654 --> 00:48:34.795
you know who to call.

649
00:48:35.335 --> 00:48:36.875
Yeah. So you have that the

650
00:48:37.894 --> 00:48:44.315
the underlying concept of multisig is it gives you peace of mind. It lets you sleep at night knowing you're not just dependent on one key. I think

651
00:48:44.775 --> 00:48:47.100
premium customer support goes hand in hand with that.

652
00:48:49.020 --> 00:48:52.000
Okay. Awesome. So, guys, sigbash.com.

653
00:48:52.300 --> 00:48:53.600
Play around with it.

654
00:48:53.980 --> 00:49:02.655
Give Arbed out your feedback. It sounds like it's very much a work in progress, and he's gonna come out with a v two based on your feedback. So what's the best?

655
00:49:03.055 --> 00:49:05.395
Alpha. Don't don't let Marty know.

656
00:49:05.935 --> 00:49:10.815
We're live. This is unedited show. I can't I can't remove it after the fact. What,

657
00:49:11.215 --> 00:49:13.395
what's the best way for them to give you feedback?

658
00:49:14.335 --> 00:49:19.000
You can reach out to me on Noster. I'm on primal.net/arbedout,

659
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:25.740
or if you're still on x, I am too. You can DM me. Twitter.com/arbedout.x.com.

660
00:49:26.279 --> 00:49:26.779
Don't

661
00:49:27.160 --> 00:49:29.579
you can't dead name x. Yeah. Zitter.

662
00:49:31.695 --> 00:49:37.475
Yeah. I'll put those links I'll put those links in the show notes. Okay. Now I wanna transition. You released a book.

663
00:49:37.775 --> 00:49:46.515
Yeah. You just, like, Ninja launched a book on us. I saw the post on Nasr. It was it's called Something More Profound. What is this book? What is it about?

664
00:49:47.220 --> 00:49:48.680
Give us the rundown.

665
00:49:49.300 --> 00:49:53.000
Sure. It is about the political economy of network protocols.

666
00:49:53.300 --> 00:49:55.240
And by political economy, I mean,

667
00:49:55.780 --> 00:50:00.040
I'm using a definition I lifted from doctor Susan Strange who wrote States and Markets,

668
00:50:01.155 --> 00:50:02.935
that stuck with me. She

669
00:50:03.315 --> 00:50:05.335
defined political economy as

670
00:50:06.595 --> 00:50:09.575
posing the question, who gets what and why for a given

671
00:50:09.875 --> 00:50:10.375
territory.

672
00:50:10.915 --> 00:50:13.175
So who gets what and why on the Internet?

673
00:50:16.060 --> 00:50:19.920
Network protocols, the basic thesis is the protocols that underlie

674
00:50:21.099 --> 00:50:26.720
the Internet, whether it's TCPIP or HTTP or SMTP or the overlay networks, Tor,

675
00:50:27.020 --> 00:50:28.560
BitTorrent, and, yes, Bitcoin.

676
00:50:29.714 --> 00:50:31.815
The rules that govern all that software

677
00:50:32.434 --> 00:50:33.654
were decided by

678
00:50:34.035 --> 00:50:34.535
developers

679
00:50:35.234 --> 00:50:39.335
and vendors and administrators as a sort of ad hoc process that

680
00:50:40.355 --> 00:50:43.255
was just meant to get the software up and running and working. And

681
00:50:44.130 --> 00:50:57.795
somehow those rules have come to govern our day to day lives, and we as users don't really understand or appreciate how we got there or what impact they have on us. So I wanted to do a deep dive exploration on how we got there and what impact they have on us and what rights we have as users.

682
00:51:00.194 --> 00:51:00.934
That's awesome.

683
00:51:01.795 --> 00:51:06.055
And, I mean, you have a I don't know how deep you wanna go here, but you have a lot of experience

684
00:51:06.835 --> 00:51:07.734
Yeah. In

685
00:51:08.115 --> 00:51:09.335
the protocol world.

686
00:51:09.714 --> 00:51:10.214
Yeah.

687
00:51:10.595 --> 00:51:14.230
I started as a baby network engineer back before even

688
00:51:15.490 --> 00:51:18.870
back before BGP was actually widely used.

689
00:51:19.570 --> 00:51:22.870
BGP is the border gateway protocol that governs the

690
00:51:23.825 --> 00:51:25.845
current existing infrastructure of the Internet.

691
00:51:27.904 --> 00:51:33.605
And I sort of jumped in not knowing what I was doing and just knowing I wanted to be more a part of this Internet thing.

692
00:51:34.145 --> 00:51:42.270
And it took me about a decade to realize all the things that I thought were etched in stone in the foundations of the current Internet were very much in flux

693
00:51:43.210 --> 00:51:46.510
and subject to what I think Donald Davies calls it the tussle.

694
00:51:46.970 --> 00:51:47.470
This,

695
00:51:48.250 --> 00:51:48.750
ongoing

696
00:51:50.170 --> 00:52:08.635
fight let's well, yeah, a tussle. There's no other word for it. This push and pull interaction between users, developers, vendors, hardware vendors, software vendors, people like Google and Mozilla, you know, Firefox and Chrome, people like Microsoft and Apple, the operating system vendors, and Us users, all of us deciding

697
00:52:09.260 --> 00:52:12.160
what do we want out of this Internet, what do we want to use it for.

698
00:52:14.700 --> 00:52:15.359
It it

699
00:52:16.059 --> 00:52:19.579
the inception of the Internet, and I cover this in the book, you can go to somethingmoreprofound.com

700
00:52:19.579 --> 00:52:20.800
and download it for free.

701
00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:23.520
I'm a first time author, so all of the

702
00:52:23.845 --> 00:52:27.065
conversations I had with publishers were sort of kind of tragic.

703
00:52:28.965 --> 00:52:33.545
So I figured, you know, why not just release it for free, download it, and if you like it, great. And if not,

704
00:52:34.165 --> 00:52:35.625
well, don't download it.

705
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:49.060
And I what I cover in the book is in the beginning, in the sixties and the seventies, the Internet came about as a means for scientists to share resources over the Internet to run their experiments.

706
00:52:49.535 --> 00:52:55.955
They built these protocols so that they could connect their computers together and have more computing power to do things like

707
00:52:56.735 --> 00:52:57.795
run weather simulations.

708
00:52:58.575 --> 00:52:59.075
Or

709
00:52:59.455 --> 00:53:02.915
there's a popular story about how the Internet was involved,

710
00:53:03.705 --> 00:53:04.205
was

711
00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:07.150
first ambition to

712
00:53:07.690 --> 00:53:10.910
help the United States military withstand a nuclear strike,

713
00:53:11.690 --> 00:53:14.829
by spreading out command and control capability. That's not quite true.

714
00:53:15.529 --> 00:53:17.150
It's more it was more about

715
00:53:17.535 --> 00:53:27.395
researchers being able to connect disparate resources to do things they couldn't in one lab alone. We went from that to academics using Usenet to communicate and share ideas,

716
00:53:27.934 --> 00:53:31.075
and then people started using Usenet to pirate software.

717
00:53:31.770 --> 00:53:36.110
There was that phase of the Internet. Then we used it. Then we sort of went to

718
00:53:36.410 --> 00:53:39.790
email and being able to send electronic messages back and forth.

719
00:53:42.090 --> 00:53:51.285
Then the next phase of the Internet was the World Wide Web and surfing the web and that idea. And now we're at our current phase of the Internet where we're doing this. Somehow, we're streaming to each other online

720
00:53:51.585 --> 00:53:54.085
and sharing our most personal thoughts on social media.

721
00:53:55.904 --> 00:53:56.724
Pretty crazy.

722
00:53:57.184 --> 00:53:59.125
Yeah. And it was all as

723
00:53:59.664 --> 00:54:01.125
all those different areas,

724
00:54:02.980 --> 00:54:05.640
can't as we work through our way through those different areas,

725
00:54:06.100 --> 00:54:06.600
protocols

726
00:54:06.900 --> 00:54:08.520
were adapted, modified,

727
00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:13.240
pushed, and pulled by developers and users and vendors to accommodate these new use cases.

728
00:54:15.295 --> 00:54:22.035
The web browsers we started within the early nineties when I first started my career looked nothing like the web browser I'm using right now to

729
00:54:22.335 --> 00:54:23.955
talk to you in this stream.

730
00:54:27.250 --> 00:54:30.290
We've come a long way. I mean Yeah. So first of all,

731
00:54:30.690 --> 00:54:35.190
I love that you released it for free. I feel like it really adds to the,

732
00:54:36.610 --> 00:54:40.790
the narrative of the book even though I haven't read it, but my understanding of the narrative of the book.

733
00:54:42.155 --> 00:54:49.454
And it's true value for value. But you should have some kind of, once again, business on air. Like, there should be, like, a donate button on the website

734
00:54:49.755 --> 00:54:52.655
so people if they find value, value for value, provide.

735
00:54:53.915 --> 00:55:09.950
If you're watching Bitcoin donation. And you like the book and you want to donate, I would ask you to donate to free the four open source developers that we talked about at the top of the model. I my mortgage is paid. My kid is fed. We've got four people in jail, guys. Use your money wisely.

736
00:55:10.745 --> 00:55:13.565
You're a legend among men. P2prights.org.

737
00:55:14.745 --> 00:55:17.405
I, so I'm I mean, on that note,

738
00:55:18.185 --> 00:55:20.365
since you're a protocol gray beard,

739
00:55:20.985 --> 00:55:21.965
without a beard,

740
00:55:23.465 --> 00:55:23.705
what

741
00:55:24.300 --> 00:55:30.080
I love that you're using Nostr. What is your opinion on, like, the current state of Nostr and

742
00:55:30.700 --> 00:55:37.430
where we're going? Like, how do you think about it? I love Nostr. Nostr is it's not quite right to call it a,

743
00:55:39.224 --> 00:55:42.204
networking protocol, a new networking protocol because it's

744
00:55:42.904 --> 00:55:44.984
well, first, that's the power in it. It's

745
00:55:46.265 --> 00:55:55.069
the network protocol is uses is WebSockets. It that's why we're able to all access it through existing web browsers. That's actually a great idea. It's piggyback on top of the existing web infrastructure.

746
00:55:55.529 --> 00:56:02.329
What it brings on top of it is a shared encoding system. All of us understand that events have to look a certain way and so

747
00:56:03.049 --> 00:56:07.950
and they have to be tagged a certain way. So different developers can build different tools that all consume the same content.

748
00:56:08.424 --> 00:56:16.045
And it also has a entirely new public key infrastructure. We all have our end pubs instead of having to get SSL certificate certificates, which is,

749
00:56:16.585 --> 00:56:21.565
what the normal web relies on. I think that's incredibly powerful. I think we've just scratched the surface of it.

750
00:56:21.944 --> 00:56:22.605
I think,

751
00:56:24.050 --> 00:56:25.210
to me, the

752
00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:27.670
we're in the very early days of Nostra.

753
00:56:29.810 --> 00:56:33.670
Where we're at right now is a great version of to me,

754
00:56:34.450 --> 00:56:35.190
the initial,

755
00:56:36.050 --> 00:56:38.470
boost in Nostra adoption came from,

756
00:56:38.915 --> 00:56:42.055
and correct me if I'm wrong, you're an early Nostra guy as well. So

757
00:56:42.435 --> 00:56:45.015
Yeah. What I saw was there was originally the

758
00:56:45.474 --> 00:56:51.315
Bitcoin hackers Mastodon instance, way before when Twitter was still a thing. People were still start getting,

759
00:56:52.119 --> 00:57:09.945
were unhappy with Twitter, and Mastodon started being the first sort of alternative. And then we all realized, wait a minute. This is just all the different problems that it's a federated fiefdom instead of a single a single king rule in us we've got. Yeah. It's like MBK instead of Elon. Yeah. And MBK is great. Don't get me wrong. I but

760
00:57:10.245 --> 00:57:14.505
he also did not want to be in that position of being the de facto, not Elon.

761
00:57:15.525 --> 00:57:16.025
Yeah.

762
00:57:16.405 --> 00:57:20.250
And nothing was signed. Like, you had to completely trust him. It was Yeah.

763
00:57:20.570 --> 00:57:27.790
Yeah. Complete false start. Yeah. And he would I mean, to his credit, he was using the best available open source tool at the time, Mastodon.

764
00:57:28.730 --> 00:57:40.175
Nostra was not necessarily a response to that. Fijoff, to my knowledge, did not say, oh, you know what? We should build something better. But a lot of the users who were dissatisfied with Twitter and had already gone through that master on steps,

765
00:57:40.714 --> 00:57:42.575
jumped on to Noster as the next step.

766
00:57:43.355 --> 00:57:43.855
So

767
00:57:44.714 --> 00:57:50.255
what that means is the original one, we're still in this late phase now, this first epic of Noster where

768
00:57:50.980 --> 00:57:55.320
it's we're seeing it as, like, a alternative to Twitter, Mastodon,

769
00:57:55.700 --> 00:58:05.400
social media, microblogging thing. I think it's so much more powerful than that. I think everyone having their own end pubs and signing their own messages and using that as a source of identity is

770
00:58:05.715 --> 00:58:10.375
what we had hoped PGP would be back in the nineties with the idea of the web of trust.

771
00:58:11.235 --> 00:58:13.415
We we just managed to bootstrap it organically

772
00:58:13.875 --> 00:58:14.615
with Nostra.

773
00:58:15.395 --> 00:58:16.615
I think But so

774
00:58:16.915 --> 00:58:21.440
on that note, I mean so this is a conversation I have with a lot of people where they're like,

775
00:58:21.900 --> 00:58:23.280
I'm really excited

776
00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:25.120
about the other stuff.

777
00:58:25.420 --> 00:58:33.600
You know, Nostra stands for notes and other stuff transmitted by relays, but not necessarily the social aspect. Would you not agree

778
00:58:34.674 --> 00:58:44.055
that the reason we've seen limited success with Nasr where we didn't really see the uptick on PGP even after years and years of tooling

779
00:58:44.914 --> 00:58:49.710
is that we have the shitposts. Like, I I feel like the shitposts are the bootstrapping

780
00:58:50.010 --> 00:58:50.510
mechanism

781
00:58:51.049 --> 00:58:51.609
The shitposts.

782
00:58:52.010 --> 00:58:53.710
The social graph. Yeah.

783
00:58:54.809 --> 00:59:00.269
Because how are we gonna exchange end pubs if you don't have like, this isn't is that the key difference?

784
00:59:00.650 --> 00:59:05.295
I mean, there's other key differences. But, like, why is why will Nasr succeed?

785
00:59:05.755 --> 00:59:09.775
Or why does Nasr have the potential of succeeding? Because I do not think it's inevitable

786
00:59:10.795 --> 00:59:12.415
where PGP has failed.

787
00:59:13.515 --> 00:59:14.174
I think

788
00:59:14.619 --> 00:59:16.640
my answer to that is we're yeah. Bootstrapping

789
00:59:18.220 --> 00:59:23.280
I don't wanna say bootstrapping trust, but bootstrapping an alternative to the PKI, the public key infrastructure.

790
00:59:23.900 --> 00:59:30.000
Getting clusters of end pubs together and finding ways for us to discover end pubs and this idea of, oh, well,

791
00:59:30.485 --> 00:59:39.305
I'd at least know I Matt gave me his end pub either on the stream now or on a business card, and I'm noticing that is following a bunch of other people.

792
00:59:39.685 --> 00:59:46.550
And I recognize their names. I'm not gonna dig into their end pubs, but I if Matt trusts them, they're in my web of trust. And I can at least

793
00:59:46.850 --> 00:59:48.310
and spreading out from there,

794
00:59:48.770 --> 00:59:56.150
we build this core web of end pubs, and then we start building more and more use cases because a lot of these people are gonna be only tangentially

795
00:59:56.770 --> 00:59:58.150
interested in the shitposts.

796
00:59:58.530 --> 01:00:00.310
They're gonna wanna do other things. I think

797
01:00:01.425 --> 01:00:08.565
the problem with shitposts is they're not their shit. It's that their post. It's it's text. Text is No. Not necessarily the

798
01:00:09.825 --> 01:00:12.405
most widely accessible medium for people. People want,

799
01:00:13.265 --> 01:00:18.220
Internet users these days want images. They want video. It's all about TikTok and Instagram.

800
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:22.220
I think building and I've seen Nostogram, of course. But building

801
01:00:22.520 --> 01:00:23.020
the

802
01:00:23.560 --> 01:00:24.060
next

803
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:28.300
generation of tools that rely on Nostra is gonna be, I think,

804
01:00:29.994 --> 01:00:35.775
it's gonna go beyond social micro micro media stuff and sharing media between users who understand. Are you familiar

805
01:00:36.155 --> 01:00:37.695
are you familiar with Blossom?

806
01:00:39.435 --> 01:00:44.255
I am not, actually. I've heard that once, but you're not the first person to ask me that, though. So now So Blossom

807
01:00:45.930 --> 01:00:47.310
Blossom was integrated

808
01:00:47.690 --> 01:00:49.150
into a bunch of clients.

809
01:00:51.450 --> 01:00:53.869
Primal has it. Nostra has it.

810
01:00:54.730 --> 01:00:56.750
I think Amethyst has it now.

811
01:00:57.505 --> 01:01:01.445
And it's a it's a very simple spec. Just like Gnostr is a very simple spec,

812
01:01:01.825 --> 01:01:04.405
Blossom is basically is is nostrifying

813
01:01:04.705 --> 01:01:05.205
media.

814
01:01:05.665 --> 01:01:08.005
Mhmm. So the the spec is

815
01:01:08.465 --> 01:01:09.765
the spec is basically

816
01:01:11.619 --> 01:01:12.440
a video,

817
01:01:13.380 --> 01:01:15.880
a a video or a image

818
01:01:16.339 --> 01:01:17.160
is hashed

819
01:01:17.619 --> 01:01:18.359
just like

820
01:01:18.660 --> 01:01:21.160
the text posts are hashed. Mhmm.

821
01:01:22.020 --> 01:01:26.839
And then it's uploaded to a centralized server just like we host media currently.

822
01:01:27.915 --> 01:01:32.015
But as a result, because it's hashed and then it's signed by the end pub,

823
01:01:33.435 --> 01:01:35.135
you know you have integrity

824
01:01:35.435 --> 01:01:46.830
and you know who who originally posted it. You know, who who posted it and you have integrity checks because you know the file hasn't been changed. And then you can easily mirror it. Right? So,

825
01:01:47.770 --> 01:01:59.125
if you're using Nasjira, for instance, you can upload to the Primal Blossom server even though you're using you're not using Primal. And then you can automatically mirror it to the to the,

826
01:02:01.525 --> 01:02:02.984
the nostr dot build

827
01:02:03.685 --> 01:02:08.425
Blossom server, which is a different media host. And then technically, anyone can save those

828
01:02:09.260 --> 01:02:10.320
save those events

829
01:02:10.859 --> 01:02:17.599
and save save the video. So, like, every time I upload to dispatch, for instance, it's hashed and it's signed by my key.

830
01:02:18.060 --> 01:02:21.760
Anyone anywhere in the world can keep a copy of that. And

831
01:02:22.205 --> 01:02:25.025
if someone like AID, you can always, in the future,

832
01:02:25.325 --> 01:02:31.985
check that that file hasn't been changed, and you can mirror it everywhere. And so you don't have to, like, really it kind of

833
01:02:33.645 --> 01:02:36.065
solves similar problems that IPFS

834
01:02:36.445 --> 01:02:38.339
attempted to solve. Mhmm.

835
01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:43.380
But does it in a much simpler way? Because it's not actually handling distribution.

836
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:45.460
It's it's just handling

837
01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:48.099
integrity and authenticity

838
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:51.300
on whether or not the original file existed.

839
01:02:51.775 --> 01:02:53.075
Maybe that's all we need.

840
01:02:54.175 --> 01:02:54.755
I think

841
01:02:55.295 --> 01:02:57.715
just thinking out loud here, but from what you described,

842
01:02:58.335 --> 01:03:06.035
I'm guessing the way that that ends up evolving if it takes off is that you'll have centralized sites that don't that aren't relays,

843
01:03:06.830 --> 01:03:09.410
that don't subscribe to it. They're republishing that content.

844
01:03:09.790 --> 01:03:11.650
And as long as we've got,

845
01:03:12.270 --> 01:03:17.010
in our web browsers, the extensions that allow us to verify the end pub and the hash content,

846
01:03:17.390 --> 01:03:21.570
maybe that's delivering most of the value proposition of Nostra to people who are never gonna be on a relay.

847
01:03:22.345 --> 01:03:27.645
Yeah. And, I mean, you don't even have to like, for instance, like, promo right now, you press upload video.

848
01:03:28.185 --> 01:03:30.365
Like, the user doesn't even realize it's happening.

849
01:03:30.665 --> 01:03:38.599
Nice. Right? It's like that's one of the cool parts. Like, same with just regular text posts. Right? It's like, with PGP, it was always very clunky.

850
01:03:39.140 --> 01:03:39.640
Yeah.

851
01:03:40.180 --> 01:03:51.135
But most users of Monster don't realize that, you know, there's a hash of the message and then signed. Or maybe they do at this point in the adoption cycle, but they won't. And same with the media. So I I think,

852
01:03:52.795 --> 01:03:54.975
the combination could be quite powerful.

853
01:03:57.115 --> 01:04:05.550
Yeah. I agree. Now I have to really check out Blossom once we get off this. I'm sort of aching to I'm not gonna I know people can see me, so I'm not gonna open it in a new tab and start banging on it.

854
01:04:05.850 --> 01:04:06.990
Maybe. And, obviously,

855
01:04:07.370 --> 01:04:13.870
obviously, I save photos and videos, but it's a simple spec. Like, you can just use it for any type of data. You can do it for PDFs.

856
01:04:15.770 --> 01:04:17.710
You know, you can do it for research papers.

857
01:04:18.145 --> 01:04:20.725
You can you can do it for all sorts of things

858
01:04:21.345 --> 01:04:22.245
that you want

859
01:04:22.945 --> 01:04:24.245
to distribute widely,

860
01:04:25.025 --> 01:04:26.325
be relatively censorship

861
01:04:27.345 --> 01:04:28.485
resistant, and not,

862
01:04:29.825 --> 01:04:33.365
and not have to worry about deep fakes and all the AI stuff that is

863
01:04:34.520 --> 01:04:38.460
going to fall on all of us like a wall of bricks Yeah. That I think people don't realize.

864
01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:40.140
I was thinking about

865
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:49.905
that when you, when you were describing it, like, there's the there's two sort of approaches to that problem. One is the world coin approach, where we're gonna scan everybody's eyeballs and that's how we'll guarantee authenticity.

866
01:04:50.445 --> 01:04:51.505
But if you trust

867
01:04:51.964 --> 01:04:53.025
someone's end pub,

868
01:04:53.325 --> 01:04:59.185
if you're willing to say, okay, this end pub is this person, suddenly you've solved the whole class of deep fake AI problems.

869
01:05:01.670 --> 01:05:05.930
So where do you just to put a pin in this Nasr conversate or, like, how do you think about

870
01:05:06.869 --> 01:05:09.130
are we at a good spot? I go,

871
01:05:09.990 --> 01:05:12.170
you know, up and down in terms of

872
01:05:14.465 --> 01:05:15.845
optimistic and frustrated,

873
01:05:16.705 --> 01:05:20.405
on Nasr development? Like, do you think we're in a good spot in terms

874
01:05:21.505 --> 01:05:23.365
of development, tooling, adoption?

875
01:05:24.065 --> 01:05:25.205
Should we be concerned?

876
01:05:26.140 --> 01:05:32.800
Should we I think, Gnostr Yeah. By its design, it's and this is one of the frustrating things. It's

877
01:05:33.420 --> 01:05:35.040
it solves a core problem

878
01:05:35.740 --> 01:05:37.600
with the traditional web experience.

879
01:05:39.365 --> 01:05:45.145
Right now, people are sort of okay with that experience with relying on centralized servers for public keys,

880
01:05:45.605 --> 01:05:52.184
as and as social tickets and being censored on social media. There's gonna have to be some sort of traumatic event for

881
01:05:52.640 --> 01:05:57.380
people for another wave of adoption, I think, for people to join us and say, oh, here is why

882
01:05:57.680 --> 01:05:58.980
why this is worth using.

883
01:05:59.520 --> 01:06:05.460
It's frustrating to wait to realize that or maybe not realize. Maybe I'm just maybe it's just my opinion.

884
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:06.740
But I think

885
01:06:08.484 --> 01:06:12.585
technologies like this end up being adopted. You see adoption of things like Tor

886
01:06:13.125 --> 01:06:16.425
when states crack down on traditional Internet communication.

887
01:06:16.885 --> 01:06:19.955
You're gonna see rises in use of it of

888
01:06:21.510 --> 01:06:27.050
Nostra when you start seeing things like age verification being implemented on websites, when you start seeing

889
01:06:27.430 --> 01:06:42.194
when We're starting to see the early days of that. Yeah. I've definitely there have been rumors this hasn't happened yet, but they've been talking about basically KYC for x. You You're gonna have to update your driver's license if you wanna be To to protect the children. Right. Of course. Is it not national security?

890
01:06:42.494 --> 01:06:46.595
It's is it is it It's fun it's funny because, like,

891
01:06:46.974 --> 01:06:48.515
as a as a father,

892
01:06:50.019 --> 01:06:52.200
social media is one of my biggest concerns,

893
01:06:53.299 --> 01:06:55.079
with my kids. It's like I don't

894
01:06:57.539 --> 01:07:01.000
I'm I'm really conscious about screens. I'm conscious

895
01:07:01.619 --> 01:07:06.915
about the addiction elements. I'm conscious about the privacy concerns and the surveillance concerns.

896
01:07:08.335 --> 01:07:10.275
But I just as a freedom

897
01:07:11.135 --> 01:07:14.355
as as a freedom lover, like, I think that's a parent's responsibility.

898
01:07:15.775 --> 01:07:17.215
And I could quickly see

899
01:07:18.579 --> 01:07:28.680
I mean, it's the age old meme. Right? It's like, how do we package this? Do we package this as national security or protecting the children? But I I think that's probably the most likely vector we see,

900
01:07:30.260 --> 01:07:37.045
increased KYC through the Internet, which is the only way we can prevent people 13 from using Facebook, for instance,

901
01:07:38.705 --> 01:07:40.325
is if we KYC everybody.

902
01:07:40.785 --> 01:07:43.525
Yeah. Because otherwise, a a kid can get through it.

903
01:07:46.225 --> 01:07:48.245
Yeah. And It's a weird weird place.

904
01:07:48.600 --> 01:07:54.140
Yeah. And if that happens, I imagine there'll be a whole slew of people who say, I'm absolutely not gonna give Mark Zuckerberg

905
01:07:54.680 --> 01:08:02.220
my passport and my bank account details, and I'll get the KYC information he wants. I'm not gonna have Sam Altman scan my scan my eyeballs.

906
01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:04.140
What can I do instead?

907
01:08:04.715 --> 01:08:05.855
I think Yep.

908
01:08:06.315 --> 01:08:07.375
I think the tooling

909
01:08:07.675 --> 01:08:10.975
right now is in place for Nostra to start helping those people.

910
01:08:12.155 --> 01:08:21.710
But when that wave comes, I imagine we'll see what we saw with Bitcoin in, like, 2011, '20 '13 when WikiLeaks kicked the hornet's nest. There's gonna be a flood of people who realize they need an alternative,

911
01:08:22.570 --> 01:08:26.670
and then they're gonna hit some choke point that we haven't envisioned yet.

912
01:08:27.130 --> 01:08:35.255
I think what was the bugbear in 2013? It was transaction malleability and Segwit. It'll be something maybe maybe it's, key rotation. Who knows?

913
01:08:35.795 --> 01:08:41.415
And then we'll have to that's the tussle. They'll show up, and we'll have to meet that challenge, and we'll go back and forth. And

914
01:08:42.355 --> 01:08:45.975
in ten years, the suits will arrive to start selling us Nostra bonds.

915
01:08:48.739 --> 01:08:51.960
I mean, with that topic, let's let's pivot over to Bitcoin.

916
01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:53.000
Sure.

917
01:08:54.260 --> 01:08:57.000
Protocol gray beard, long time Bitcoiner.

918
01:08:57.619 --> 01:08:58.199
Oh, shit.

919
01:09:00.765 --> 01:09:01.165
I,

920
01:09:01.885 --> 01:09:06.145
the yeah. The people listening we have way more listeners on the podcast feed.

921
01:09:06.845 --> 01:09:12.385
So they're all just gonna assume that you have just a massive gray beard. I keep saying it over and over again.

922
01:09:14.030 --> 01:09:14.530
The

923
01:09:15.070 --> 01:09:19.730
where do you how do you think about where are we at Bitcoin? Like, are you positive? Are you negative?

924
01:09:20.110 --> 01:09:25.969
Are, you know, are we in a good spot? Could we be in a better spot five years ago if you were thinking about today?

925
01:09:27.335 --> 01:09:28.235
How we doing?

926
01:09:28.935 --> 01:09:30.315
I think we're doing great.

927
01:09:31.095 --> 01:09:33.995
Could we be in a better spot? Sure. I'm not

928
01:09:34.855 --> 01:09:35.335
sure that,

929
01:09:37.255 --> 01:09:40.075
there's much we can do about it as Bitcoin besides

930
01:09:40.650 --> 01:09:46.590
trying to make it as easy as possible and as normal as possible for people to run their own nodes and to hold their own coins.

931
01:09:48.090 --> 01:09:50.270
I think there's a lot of distractions,

932
01:09:50.650 --> 01:09:51.710
whether it be

933
01:09:52.010 --> 01:09:52.570
things like

934
01:09:53.195 --> 01:09:57.935
not that I'm against or oppose things like bit bonds or the strategic Bitcoin reserve

935
01:09:58.475 --> 01:09:58.975
or

936
01:09:59.435 --> 01:10:00.655
inscriptions or ordinals

937
01:10:01.115 --> 01:10:04.735
or OP return or whatever people are talking about on social media these days.

938
01:10:05.540 --> 01:10:06.040
But

939
01:10:06.340 --> 01:10:07.800
I think that's sort of incidental

940
01:10:08.260 --> 01:10:14.840
to what we should be focusing on, which is making sure as many people as possible can hold their own coins and run their own nodes. That's the entire value proposition.

941
01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:20.235
As more and more use of companies in Bitcoin, I think it's incumbent on us to make it

942
01:10:20.715 --> 01:10:22.255
easier and easier for them to

943
01:10:22.635 --> 01:10:24.175
manage their nodes and

944
01:10:24.955 --> 01:10:30.255
to hold their own funds. I think start nine is a great step in that direction. I you showed me on a nodal.

945
01:10:30.795 --> 01:10:43.000
The first node that I that I got from someone else was a Before then, I was running my own node on my laptop. And I graduated from that to a and my next upgrade was a start nine, which I'm not gonna show you in my room right now. It's right next to me.

946
01:10:44.820 --> 01:10:50.285
Each iteration of node that I've had has been easier and easier to run to the point where the start nine is

947
01:10:50.825 --> 01:10:52.125
I'm pretty sure

948
01:10:52.505 --> 01:10:58.285
I wouldn't say completely point and click, but it is astounding how few buttons I had to click to get up and running with the node.

949
01:10:59.810 --> 01:11:04.550
Yeah. They're about to make it I mean, I'm not allowed to talk about it, but it's gonna get even easier pretty soon.

950
01:11:05.650 --> 01:11:06.390
That's great.

951
01:11:07.250 --> 01:11:07.910
I think

952
01:11:09.570 --> 01:11:16.934
in terms of wallets, what I've seen lately out of, say, what Nunchuk is doing and how they set up, music too is really exciting to me.

953
01:11:17.795 --> 01:11:24.690
Sparrow has come leaps in that from the last time you and I talked to where Sparrow was, where it is now is astounding to me.

954
01:11:25.730 --> 01:11:33.190
I think we're in a great position in terms of how easy it is to run your own self sovereign wallet and run your own self sovereign node.

955
01:11:36.610 --> 01:11:38.310
My biggest concerns,

956
01:11:38.770 --> 01:11:39.670
I would say,

957
01:11:40.275 --> 01:11:42.135
are that we don't have that

958
01:11:43.155 --> 01:11:45.495
we, the node runners, are being

959
01:11:46.195 --> 01:11:46.695
outpaced

960
01:11:46.995 --> 01:11:50.535
by the people who are just in it for number go up.

961
01:11:51.155 --> 01:11:54.855
It's not a sin for them to be in it for number go up, but we need to

962
01:11:55.950 --> 01:11:57.250
as much as possible,

963
01:11:57.870 --> 01:12:11.330
when people are when people come for the money, we wanna make sure that they stay for the freedom tech. If you're in it for Bitcoin at 6 figures, that's great. A start night node is a small investment in this thing that you're in this journey you're going to take.

964
01:12:14.715 --> 01:12:16.815
I'm not sure that there's anything that

965
01:12:17.435 --> 01:12:19.455
that's on my wish list from a

966
01:12:21.995 --> 01:12:23.295
protocol point of view.

967
01:12:24.155 --> 01:12:25.535
You know what? I'm catching myself.

968
01:12:25.835 --> 01:12:27.535
There there are things that I might want.

969
01:12:27.969 --> 01:12:28.630
I would

970
01:12:29.329 --> 01:12:34.150
there's not anything I would wanna I look. I do a monthly thing at PubKey here in New York City.

971
01:12:34.690 --> 01:12:35.429
I'm very

972
01:12:35.810 --> 01:12:48.215
religious about being impartial there. I'm gonna bring that same energy here. I'm not gonna tell people that I want a certain change made to Bitcoin because then people will say, oh, so and so on the Internet said, and now that's my opinion. I think it's more important. Is your monthly

973
01:12:48.595 --> 01:12:50.295
is your monthly thing, like,

974
01:12:50.995 --> 01:12:57.440
is it, like, bid devs ask? Or We I mean, obviously, there's New York bid devs. Right? Yeah. That's a this is separate.

975
01:12:57.980 --> 01:13:25.760
Yeah. We don't compete with bit devs at all. We'd and I love bit devs, but for a lot of people, it comes off as being, like, the Latin mass where you go and you don't quite understand what they're saying, but you're there as part of the incident. Yeah. This is You just sit there and everything goes over your head. Yeah. We purposely will bring on a guest for talk about whatever topic that people are talking on social media, and we will talk through and we'll go through the audience and do QA and make sure everyone understands and we're on the same page. Okay. So it's the middle ground. It's a it's like, in person dispatch.

976
01:13:26.540 --> 01:13:30.480
Yeah. Because I try and make dispatch, like, the middle ground between bit devs and,

977
01:13:31.260 --> 01:13:36.000
a little bit more accessible. I love bit devs. Don't get me wrong. I think that's where we met.

978
01:13:36.895 --> 01:13:39.074
Oh, no. We met before that. Yeah.

979
01:13:39.775 --> 01:13:42.034
Well, I was still pretending to live in Austin.

980
01:13:44.094 --> 01:13:45.315
We met during consensus.

981
01:13:45.695 --> 01:13:46.195
Consensus

982
01:13:47.534 --> 01:13:50.275
when it was in New York, maybe 2019

983
01:13:50.815 --> 01:13:51.715
2018.

984
01:13:52.040 --> 01:13:53.420
Why are you doxing me, bro?

985
01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:55.100
I don't

986
01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:57.340
know. What what am I doxing?

987
01:13:57.719 --> 01:14:00.219
I I I I live in New York.

988
01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:04.780
You just said you do a monthly thing at PubKey. I do it from New Jersey.

989
01:14:05.400 --> 01:14:07.900
Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. That's right now. New Jersey.

990
01:14:09.455 --> 01:14:09.695
I,

991
01:14:11.855 --> 01:14:15.315
okay. I mean, on the note of Bitcoin I mean, I think look.

992
01:14:16.655 --> 01:14:20.915
I think percentage wise, the people that care about Bitcoin as Freedom Money is definitely

993
01:14:21.775 --> 01:14:22.835
trending down.

994
01:14:23.135 --> 01:14:23.635
Mhmm.

995
01:14:23.990 --> 01:14:24.810
But I think

996
01:14:25.590 --> 01:14:35.370
from absolute numbers, we have more people that care about Bitcoin and use Bitcoin as freedom money than we've ever had before. Like, it's not even close. Like, that absolute number is trending up. And the beauty

997
01:14:35.750 --> 01:14:37.610
of Bitcoin to me has always been,

998
01:14:39.045 --> 01:14:44.085
like, effective. It's it's hard to comprehend, but it's like minority veto power. It's like you just you

999
01:14:44.605 --> 01:14:47.145
it it it empowers the minority

1000
01:14:47.765 --> 01:14:50.905
to make sure that there's no change. It's very hard for even

1001
01:14:51.285 --> 01:14:59.190
a a large majority to change Bitcoin at the protocol level. That's, like, the core value prop. Right? So as long as we have, like, this

1002
01:14:59.570 --> 01:15:00.869
ride or die base,

1003
01:15:02.130 --> 01:15:03.909
it's it's hard to

1004
01:15:05.969 --> 01:15:08.710
enact negative changes in a big way,

1005
01:15:09.455 --> 01:15:11.235
which is what we have going for us.

1006
01:15:11.535 --> 01:15:14.435
Yeah. I agree with that. And that's why you see a lot of

1007
01:15:15.375 --> 01:15:28.460
again, this is the the term that I quote in the book is the tussle. Why you see a lot of the conversations we're having right now about OP returns and things like what Bitlayer is doing with setting up this agreement where they're gonna send nonstandard transactions to the minders.

1008
01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:34.540
It's very hard for us to change consensus, so people will sort of try to find ways around that and other people,

1009
01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:35.659
say,

1010
01:15:36.005 --> 01:15:40.105
oh, that's not what I signed up for. That's actually we're finding out the difference right now, I feel, between

1011
01:15:40.724 --> 01:15:41.224
policy

1012
01:15:41.844 --> 01:15:42.585
and consensus

1013
01:15:43.284 --> 01:15:44.665
and convention, where

1014
01:15:45.204 --> 01:15:46.905
policy is what your node,

1015
01:15:47.284 --> 01:15:52.829
sort of agrees to do. Consensus is what your node has to do, and convention is what we all just sort of assumed was gonna happen.

1016
01:15:53.610 --> 01:15:58.190
Because consensus is so hard to change, we're now focusing on fighting about policy and convention.

1017
01:16:00.730 --> 01:16:01.630
Yeah. I mean

1018
01:16:02.115 --> 01:16:13.335
so when we were when we were first when we first met, one of the first conversations we had when we first met in undisclosed location at undisclosed time, one of the first conversations we had was

1019
01:16:14.035 --> 01:16:14.535
about

1020
01:16:15.340 --> 01:16:17.760
protocol improvements that could improve privacy.

1021
01:16:18.300 --> 01:16:18.800
Mhmm.

1022
01:16:21.660 --> 01:16:27.040
Like, that's I mean, do you think we'll have any significant protocol changes ever in anything?

1023
01:16:29.195 --> 01:16:29.935
For anything?

1024
01:16:30.554 --> 01:16:31.835
I think it gets harder in

1025
01:16:33.514 --> 01:16:40.415
I mean, I'm speaking sorry. Continue. I'm I'm speaking it's not absolutes, but just like anything's like, I feel like we're kind of

1026
01:16:41.239 --> 01:16:42.219
near ossification.

1027
01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:45.640
But, I mean, ossification is a strong word. But

1028
01:16:46.280 --> 01:16:47.580
So let's talk about ossification,

1029
01:16:47.960 --> 01:16:49.340
because I cover this in the book.

1030
01:16:50.280 --> 01:16:52.780
The Okay. The first time ossification,

1031
01:16:53.080 --> 01:16:54.620
the term appeared in the literature,

1032
01:16:55.255 --> 01:16:55.755
was

1033
01:16:56.055 --> 01:16:57.355
in the mid nineties.

1034
01:16:58.535 --> 01:17:00.635
I think 1995 was the first paper,

1035
01:17:01.095 --> 01:17:09.114
when Internet Protocol researchers realized, wait a minute. So many people are using the TCPIP that is actually pretty difficult for us to change it. Not because

1036
01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:19.580
everyone can't agree on a change, but because what would it mean to change when you've got all these boxes and all this middleware that is sort of assuming things about the behavior of TCP, what would it mean to push through a change?

1037
01:17:20.200 --> 01:17:32.185
Are you gonna break several you can't ship software and say, hey. Right. This will break a whole bunch of things and then expect people to run it because plenty of important people will say, you know what? I'm not gonna run the thing that breaks things for all my users.

1038
01:17:35.220 --> 01:17:37.560
I think the important thing to

1039
01:17:40.660 --> 01:17:59.205
remember or realize from that history is that ossification is not an end state. It's a process. Ossification is we're there right now. It's happening. It's the process of it's not becoming ossified. There's no end goal where you finally make no changes. It's the where changes end up being pushed out to the edges where they're using a user to make.

1040
01:18:01.610 --> 01:18:02.110
Consensus

1041
01:18:02.889 --> 01:18:07.070
when we talk about obfuscations in Bitcoin, we're talking about how hard it is to make consensus changes.

1042
01:18:07.530 --> 01:18:13.710
I think what we're seeing is that it's becoming harder and harder to make consensus changes. There are longer and longer gaps

1043
01:18:14.265 --> 01:18:15.805
between soft works,

1044
01:18:16.585 --> 01:18:17.085
and

1045
01:18:17.545 --> 01:18:19.085
it's harder and harder to

1046
01:18:19.465 --> 01:18:23.485
get stakeholders to agree on what the next soft work is. It's

1047
01:18:23.945 --> 01:18:25.485
interesting in to me in that

1048
01:18:26.185 --> 01:18:27.085
there was never

1049
01:18:29.110 --> 01:18:41.849
originally, there was never this baked in idea of there being a next soft fork. There was always in debate and bit nine the idea that you could have multiple soft forks in flight, that people would have different things that they would wanna activate at different times. But in practice,

1050
01:18:42.195 --> 01:19:17.655
as a community, we always wanna fight about one thing, and we don't have, like, energy to fight about two different things. So it's always gonna be the next soft fork. There'll always be the next thing. That's ended up being an interesting gating factor because once you have the next soft fork, the there's a second question of what should the next soft fork be. Are you the type of person who are you the type of person who, makes your bed first thing in the morning? Because if you are, I bet your next soft fork is gonna be the great success cleanup. You wanna make sure things are nice and tidy. Are you the type of person who, like, wakes up, gets going, and immediately starts playing video games, and you want the next big, fast, and shiny thing, and you wanna shift to yesterday and you're annoyed that it hasn't?

1051
01:19:18.275 --> 01:19:25.015
As we have more and more personalities and more and more different sets of incentives, the idea of what the next software should be,

1052
01:19:26.035 --> 01:19:28.695
it becomes harder and harder to come to consensus on.

1053
01:19:29.300 --> 01:19:34.360
I don't think we've seen the last change. I think one of the things I covered was

1054
01:19:34.980 --> 01:19:38.440
in the wake of the Snowden revelations in 2013, whenever Snowden,

1055
01:19:40.420 --> 01:19:44.945
revealed that the NSA and the GA HQ had been spying on everyone

1056
01:19:45.645 --> 01:19:48.705
on the web for years and years using HTTP.

1057
01:19:49.485 --> 01:19:53.025
There was a sudden consensus. Wait a minute. We should all switch to HTTPS.

1058
01:19:53.645 --> 01:19:59.800
HTTPS had been around for decades, but we'd all sort of said, oh, it's hard and it's expensive and

1059
01:20:00.260 --> 01:20:06.599
we don't really need it unless we're doing credit cards and passwords, unless you have a global passive adversary who's sweeping up all of your data.

1060
01:20:08.579 --> 01:20:09.079
Once

1061
01:20:10.395 --> 01:20:12.895
once, Eversenr came out with those regulations,

1062
01:20:13.355 --> 01:20:23.215
the mass migration to an entirely new protocol, a mass consensus change happened relatively quickly. It took a decade to get to 95%, but 50% was pretty quick.

1063
01:20:25.670 --> 01:20:30.010
I'm bringing that example up because if there were some threat, like, if tomorrow,

1064
01:20:30.550 --> 01:20:32.570
there were something announced that we actually had,

1065
01:20:33.110 --> 01:20:33.610
viable

1066
01:20:34.070 --> 01:20:50.005
quantum computers that were actually capable of running Shor's algorithm and actually threatened ECDSA. I don't think that's happening anytime soon for the record, but that's since that's everyone's top of mind thing, if there were an actual real credible thing, I think we as a community would say, okay. Well, we know what the next software is. Guess what we're shipping?

1067
01:20:51.505 --> 01:20:52.005
Right.

1068
01:20:52.305 --> 01:20:54.860
In the absence of a threat, it becomes,

1069
01:20:55.400 --> 01:20:57.500
well, what would you like? What would you want?

1070
01:20:57.880 --> 01:20:58.380
And

1071
01:20:59.239 --> 01:21:07.245
the options right now that I'm aware of, we saw we covered this in the last month's, it's called coin based, by the way, our monthly meetup at PubKey. I I really should have plugged that now.

1072
01:21:09.485 --> 01:21:11.505
The last coin based, we talked about

1073
01:21:12.365 --> 01:21:14.945
the different software discussions at Up Next,

1074
01:21:15.565 --> 01:21:18.065
and there were three. There's the great consensus cleanup.

1075
01:21:18.605 --> 01:21:21.585
There's the great script restoration, and then there's CTBCSFS.

1076
01:21:24.760 --> 01:21:26.460
I don't think that anyone

1077
01:21:28.520 --> 01:21:35.100
disagrees that the great consensus cleanup would be nice, but none of the threats that it mitigates are seen as being particularly present.

1078
01:21:35.640 --> 01:21:36.460
So Right.

1079
01:21:37.565 --> 01:21:39.344
The next thing is create script restoration.

1080
01:21:40.844 --> 01:21:42.145
And after that is CTVCSFS.

1081
01:21:42.925 --> 01:21:45.985
And that comes down to that discussion comes down to, well,

1082
01:21:47.005 --> 01:22:00.239
what sort of what flavor of covenants do you want, which turns into what do you want out of covenants? And I think that's where we're stuck on as community. I think there's the general mind here right now is what we're fighting about for the next soft work is something covenant related.

1083
01:22:00.860 --> 01:22:06.005
But And there's just, like, a lot of different then that gets subdivided within that. Right? So it's

1084
01:22:06.885 --> 01:22:09.465
it makes it even harder to find any kind of real consensus.

1085
01:22:10.005 --> 01:22:22.220
Yeah. Yeah. Because covenants enable so many things. So now it becomes, well, what do you want out of covenants? What do you want to give to users? Why aren't users actually are is there demand for this? Is this just are we just going in circles?

1086
01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:29.980
I I don't have an opinion one way or the other on a particular covenant proposal. I do think covenants are neat.

1087
01:22:34.035 --> 01:22:35.255
So, I mean, why

1088
01:22:35.555 --> 01:22:38.135
why should you why should we care about covenants?

1089
01:22:38.595 --> 01:22:40.775
Why should you care about covenants? Okay.

1090
01:22:41.315 --> 01:22:42.455
That's a great question.

1091
01:22:43.760 --> 01:22:45.620
Covenants enable several things.

1092
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:46.500
One,

1093
01:22:48.160 --> 01:22:51.380
there are two reasons I'll try to distill for everyone

1094
01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:56.340
watching right now why you might wanna care about covenants. The first is that they, in theory,

1095
01:22:56.715 --> 01:23:00.335
enable lots of new and interesting second layer layer two constructions.

1096
01:23:00.795 --> 01:23:03.615
They make they allow us to make layer two

1097
01:23:03.995 --> 01:23:10.255
the layer two experience for users much more user friendly and less interactive and provide stronger security guarantees.

1098
01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:15.739
Going into more detail than that would be a whole separate rip. Right. Fair enough.

1099
01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:32.945
The other reason is that it allows you to bind coins with, certain conditions. So instead of saying, hey, like, CignaBash, please don't sign this coin until this day. You can actually bake into the protocol and say, this coin isn't getting spent. Well, we can do that already. We have time locks, but you can bind other conditions. Like,

1100
01:23:33.325 --> 01:23:37.345
this this coin isn't being spent unless this transaction meets these requirements.

1101
01:23:38.409 --> 01:23:41.230
Without the trust of a centralized party like SegWit?

1102
01:23:41.690 --> 01:23:42.190
Yeah.

1103
01:23:43.690 --> 01:23:51.230
And the on the previous part about layer two stuff, I think it's important for new people to realize that we wouldn't have had Lightning without SegWit.

1104
01:23:51.585 --> 01:23:56.005
Right. Like, so there is some precedent here that there was a soft fork that was done,

1105
01:23:56.785 --> 01:24:00.325
to make that make Lightning possible in the first place. And now

1106
01:24:01.505 --> 01:24:02.805
I think most people

1107
01:24:03.360 --> 01:24:07.780
it would blow their mind if we like, they just take lightning for granted. Like, of course, we have lightning.

1108
01:24:08.080 --> 01:24:08.580
Yeah.

1109
01:24:09.679 --> 01:24:10.659
On this topic,

1110
01:24:12.880 --> 01:24:14.260
you know, the hard part

1111
01:24:14.880 --> 01:24:15.860
of soft forks

1112
01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:17.780
is activation.

1113
01:24:18.625 --> 01:24:19.125
Mhmm.

1114
01:24:20.385 --> 01:24:22.165
And the really

1115
01:24:22.545 --> 01:24:26.244
crazy thing to wrap your head around is the idea of consensus,

1116
01:24:27.344 --> 01:24:30.885
because you don't really know if we have consensus until after

1117
01:24:32.160 --> 01:24:33.540
after you activate it.

1118
01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:42.580
You'd there's no way to objectively know that, actually, an overwhelming majority of the network is motivated and supportive of a change.

1119
01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:45.780
You're kinda just measuring tea leaves. There's no

1120
01:24:46.575 --> 01:24:49.875
there there's there's there's no easy way

1121
01:24:50.415 --> 01:24:53.075
or concrete way to actually measure consensus.

1122
01:24:53.535 --> 01:24:54.275
And so,

1123
01:24:54.975 --> 01:24:55.475
historically,

1124
01:24:57.135 --> 01:24:57.795
the Bitcoin

1125
01:24:58.335 --> 01:24:59.475
stakeholder base,

1126
01:24:59.900 --> 01:25:02.880
people that care and use Bitcoin and rely on Bitcoin,

1127
01:25:03.579 --> 01:25:05.679
not people that like stake coins,

1128
01:25:07.739 --> 01:25:09.520
has been smaller and

1129
01:25:10.460 --> 01:25:12.880
a little bit and more aligned. Right? Like,

1130
01:25:13.260 --> 01:25:18.745
the user base is broadened. Right? Like, now not not, you know now Larry Fink owns Bitcoin.

1131
01:25:19.125 --> 01:25:19.625
Right?

1132
01:25:20.565 --> 01:25:23.145
We're in a completely different world. Now, you know,

1133
01:25:23.485 --> 01:25:23.985
the,

1134
01:25:24.805 --> 01:25:28.745
Pakistan wants to have a strategic Bitcoin reserve. Where the the

1135
01:25:29.659 --> 01:25:36.239
the views of of the broader stakeholder base are way, way, way broader than ever before.

1136
01:25:36.860 --> 01:25:37.360
And

1137
01:25:37.900 --> 01:25:40.480
because it was more focused and more

1138
01:25:41.595 --> 01:25:45.935
there was more commonality, that Venn diagram of users was more overlapped.

1139
01:25:47.755 --> 01:25:49.935
We've never had a soft fork activated

1140
01:25:51.515 --> 01:25:52.495
that was contentious.

1141
01:25:53.675 --> 01:25:54.895
This is true. And so

1142
01:25:55.595 --> 01:25:55.995
if we

1143
01:25:57.030 --> 01:25:57.770
my concern

1144
01:25:58.150 --> 01:25:58.970
is that

1145
01:25:59.590 --> 01:25:59.990
if

1146
01:26:00.470 --> 01:26:07.290
and, you know, there's some people in the community that will argue semantics about my phrasing here. So I'm trying to be very deliberate about how I say it.

1147
01:26:07.830 --> 01:26:10.170
My concern is that we activate a soft fork

1148
01:26:11.255 --> 01:26:12.235
that doesn't have

1149
01:26:12.535 --> 01:26:13.035
consensus.

1150
01:26:14.055 --> 01:26:18.395
We think it has consensus. That's why we're activating it. But it doesn't have consensus.

1151
01:26:19.175 --> 01:26:21.755
The response for the people that aren't

1152
01:26:22.135 --> 01:26:26.430
supportive of that soft fork is actually causes a hard fork after the fact.

1153
01:26:28.270 --> 01:26:31.170
Because the only way you can stop a soft fork

1154
01:26:32.190 --> 01:26:32.690
or

1155
01:26:33.070 --> 01:26:36.210
I've been told that it's not a hard fork. It's a chain split.

1156
01:26:36.590 --> 01:26:40.770
It's a chain split. You would have a chain split in that situation, which is,

1157
01:26:41.295 --> 01:26:43.235
for all intents and purposes, is,

1158
01:26:44.574 --> 01:26:50.594
a hard fork. You would have a chain split as a response to that. And so my question to you is

1159
01:26:52.094 --> 01:26:53.715
very controversial question.

1160
01:26:54.015 --> 01:26:54.995
Yeah. But Is

1161
01:26:55.350 --> 01:26:57.449
is the path forward actually

1162
01:26:59.830 --> 01:27:01.210
delivered hard forks?

1163
01:27:01.590 --> 01:27:05.449
Because the problem with the delivered hard fork is you don't have backwards compatibility

1164
01:27:05.830 --> 01:27:06.810
on node software.

1165
01:27:07.285 --> 01:27:11.305
Mhmm. But the beauty of a deliberate hard fork is that actually it's really clean.

1166
01:27:11.685 --> 01:27:13.305
Right? Because if you have Bitcoin,

1167
01:27:14.405 --> 01:27:19.305
then you have Bitcoin equivalent amount of Bitcoin on both chains. There's not many

1168
01:27:19.925 --> 01:27:21.705
knock on, like, unforeseen

1169
01:27:22.840 --> 01:27:33.260
side effects that could happen. You kinda know what the results will be. Then the question is, you know, which chain becomes dominant? Because I don't think one side I don't think both sides survive. Right? I think

1170
01:27:33.640 --> 01:27:36.060
the lesson of chain splits is that

1171
01:27:36.435 --> 01:27:39.235
one side will have, you know, 99%

1172
01:27:39.235 --> 01:27:39.815
of value.

1173
01:27:41.474 --> 01:27:47.655
Well, over time. Right? Like, if you look at BCash versus Bitcoin, it's, like, ninety nine to, like, point point one.

1174
01:27:48.034 --> 01:27:48.534
Yeah.

1175
01:27:49.795 --> 01:27:51.420
I think What are your thoughts on that?

1176
01:27:52.300 --> 01:27:56.640
I think hard fork should be the absolute last resort, but they shouldn't be something to be scared of.

1177
01:27:57.179 --> 01:28:00.719
If we find ourselves stymied on the next soft fork for

1178
01:28:01.739 --> 01:28:03.760
an interminable amount of time,

1179
01:28:04.699 --> 01:28:05.199
and

1180
01:28:05.655 --> 01:28:09.595
we realize something and I don't see this yet about covenants at the moment.

1181
01:28:10.215 --> 01:28:15.275
We realize that there's some feature that we don't just want or would be nice, but it's something we actually need

1182
01:28:16.135 --> 01:28:18.955
to survive or whatever we define survival as,

1183
01:28:19.310 --> 01:28:31.810
then I don't think a hard fork is something to be scared of if the alternative is dying. I don't see that threat right now. I again, I hate to use the quantum stuff as the bugbear, but that's the threat that everyone is in everyone's mind. Right.

1184
01:28:32.824 --> 01:28:34.925
So let's say it's that. If it came down

1185
01:28:35.625 --> 01:28:38.745
to we have to do a hard fork to save Bitcoin from

1186
01:28:39.385 --> 01:28:39.885
to,

1187
01:28:40.505 --> 01:28:42.764
fork in post quantum signatures

1188
01:28:43.945 --> 01:28:45.645
or we watch Bitcoin die,

1189
01:28:46.410 --> 01:28:49.070
I think we'd probably see that play out.

1190
01:28:49.850 --> 01:28:52.830
The difficult thing about a chain split is you have to

1191
01:28:53.850 --> 01:28:59.469
it comes down to what economic weight is behind which nodes on which chain. If you have Yeah.

1192
01:28:59.915 --> 01:29:05.135
A bunch of early Huddlers and the exchanges on one chain and everyone else is on the other chain,

1193
01:29:06.075 --> 01:29:15.455
even though the first chain has roughly small number of people, if it's got enough hash power and enough nodes actually transacting economic weight behind it,

1194
01:29:15.940 --> 01:29:20.920
it might end up being the it might end up winning. It might end up being the more valuable shan.

1195
01:29:21.780 --> 01:29:22.280
That's

1196
01:29:23.060 --> 01:29:23.880
by design.

1197
01:29:25.860 --> 01:29:27.080
Not sure that it's optimal.

1198
01:29:27.540 --> 01:29:30.360
Avoiding epistemic questions like this is

1199
01:29:31.135 --> 01:29:37.635
sort of top of mind for anyone who wants to avoid a hard fork. You want everyone to get on the same page and say, hey. We're doing this soft fork, and here are the reasons why.

1200
01:29:38.895 --> 01:29:39.395
But,

1201
01:29:39.855 --> 01:29:40.515
I mean,

1202
01:29:41.855 --> 01:29:43.075
once again, like

1203
01:29:43.615 --> 01:29:44.115
so,

1204
01:29:47.810 --> 01:29:54.389
a product of my success in the space is that there's a lot of conspiracy theories about me. So I wanna just be very clear.

1205
01:29:56.130 --> 01:30:00.230
And none of the conspiracy theories lack validity, but, of course, anyone who's

1206
01:30:01.145 --> 01:30:03.485
a target of conspiracy theories would say that.

1207
01:30:05.145 --> 01:30:06.105
I more

1208
01:30:08.425 --> 01:30:11.485
I I sit in the place of I lean towards

1209
01:30:12.425 --> 01:30:13.165
no change

1210
01:30:13.500 --> 01:30:17.440
on the protocol level unless it's absolutely necessary, like, overwhelming majority.

1211
01:30:17.980 --> 01:30:20.400
I'm, you know, I'm not gonna use my,

1212
01:30:20.860 --> 01:30:26.080
quote, unquote, influence, which I don't think I have as much as the haters would think I have,

1213
01:30:27.295 --> 01:30:31.235
to push through a change. I actually am looking at it from the opposite perspective. So

1214
01:30:31.695 --> 01:30:33.315
to me, what is more dangerous

1215
01:30:34.735 --> 01:30:43.160
is a malicious soft fork in a lot of ways or a not maybe not malicious, but, like, a forced soft like, a soft fork that is pushed

1216
01:30:44.020 --> 01:30:44.920
against the majority

1217
01:30:45.540 --> 01:30:48.680
than a hard fork. Like, a hard fork to me is way cleaner

1218
01:30:49.380 --> 01:30:49.880
because

1219
01:30:50.340 --> 01:30:52.280
because you forced the choice. I see.

1220
01:30:53.395 --> 01:30:53.895
Because

1221
01:30:54.195 --> 01:31:04.295
the response the response to a soft fork you don't like is effectively forcing a chain split. The the responders have to do the hard fork, not the people changing it. Mhmm.

1222
01:31:05.430 --> 01:31:09.850
Right? Yeah. Am I thinking about it wrong? Or No. I I agree with that.

1223
01:31:12.070 --> 01:31:18.250
Well, let's let's make this not theoretical. What's the malicious soft fork that we're doing? Because we have to Okay. So let's

1224
01:31:18.630 --> 01:31:20.810
let's say that the powers that be

1225
01:31:21.725 --> 01:31:23.105
will really want CTV.

1226
01:31:24.205 --> 01:31:25.185
Okay. Right?

1227
01:31:25.565 --> 01:31:29.805
Because I think Quantum's a little bit, you know, whatever, out there a bit. Yeah.

1228
01:31:30.365 --> 01:31:32.465
They want CTV. And so they contact

1229
01:31:33.165 --> 01:31:36.785
80% of the miners, and they just soft fork CTV in.

1230
01:31:38.390 --> 01:31:42.490
The only response if we don't want CTV is to chain split it.

1231
01:31:45.110 --> 01:31:45.610
Okay.

1232
01:31:47.670 --> 01:31:53.605
Well, then it becomes we're not fighting against CTV, we're fighting against the de facto minor cartel taking over.

1233
01:31:54.545 --> 01:31:55.045
Yeah.

1234
01:31:56.224 --> 01:31:58.804
So it would be hard forking if the miners were rebelling.

1235
01:32:00.625 --> 01:32:08.590
I don't think that's anything to be scared of. Let me put it that way. And hang on. With that note, give me a second to pause because I need to plug in. We're running out of battery here.

1236
01:32:09.450 --> 01:32:10.270
You're good.

1237
01:32:20.665 --> 01:32:22.925
Freaks, if you're enjoying the show,

1238
01:32:24.905 --> 01:32:26.364
share with friends and family.

1239
01:32:26.905 --> 01:32:31.430
Cielo Dispatch is available in all your favorite podcast apps. You can just

1240
01:32:32.370 --> 01:32:36.310
search CIL dispatch, click that nice subscribe button. It does help.

1241
01:32:38.450 --> 01:32:43.510
Leave a good review or a bad review. I didn't re reviews. I'm not gonna tell you to leave a good review.

1242
01:32:44.255 --> 01:32:48.114
It does help. Okay. It looks like ArvDOT's back. I used it to show the show.

1243
01:32:49.054 --> 01:32:49.715
You're good.

1244
01:32:50.175 --> 01:32:52.275
Let me let me think about this. I'm

1245
01:32:52.655 --> 01:32:54.735
on the fly. Okay. So if we're

1246
01:32:56.255 --> 01:32:58.114
if we've gone to the minors to

1247
01:32:58.570 --> 01:33:03.070
fork in CTV and we're going around the node runners, how do we deal with that? Is that

1248
01:33:04.570 --> 01:33:06.510
are we hardworking them out of the equation?

1249
01:33:08.010 --> 01:33:10.590
Yeah. I mean, you would have to force a chain split.

1250
01:33:11.295 --> 01:33:11.795
Right.

1251
01:33:12.815 --> 01:33:14.035
We've never seen

1252
01:33:14.495 --> 01:33:18.275
once again, I don't think we've because Segwit was, like, kind of controversial,

1253
01:33:19.215 --> 01:33:22.595
but all the all the people that were against it went to BCash.

1254
01:33:23.380 --> 01:33:28.040
Right. Like, there was no there was a separate hard fork that happened pre SegWit activation.

1255
01:33:29.060 --> 01:33:31.000
Yeah. The August 1,

1256
01:33:31.220 --> 01:33:32.440
the BCH. Yeah.

1257
01:33:38.555 --> 01:33:40.255
So we've never had that situation,

1258
01:33:40.635 --> 01:33:45.055
and it kind of like, okay. Let's, like, let's say you didn't like

1259
01:33:45.595 --> 01:33:46.095
Taproot.

1260
01:33:46.875 --> 01:33:49.615
Mhmm. Right? So you you didn't update your note.

1261
01:33:50.890 --> 01:33:51.390
Well,

1262
01:33:51.690 --> 01:33:57.870
at this point, like, if you haven't updated your node to a Taproot spec node, like, you're not

1263
01:33:58.250 --> 01:34:00.270
validating or seeing a lot of transactions.

1264
01:34:00.810 --> 01:34:07.605
Right. Like, you just don't even know they exist. Like, is is that opt in? Like, that almost doesn't feel opt in.

1265
01:34:08.705 --> 01:34:09.205
But,

1266
01:34:09.745 --> 01:34:12.325
fortunately, we have you know, we had overwhelming

1267
01:34:12.785 --> 01:34:14.885
support for Taproot. There wasn't really,

1268
01:34:16.320 --> 01:34:18.340
opposition towards that. So it's, like,

1269
01:34:18.880 --> 01:34:20.260
entering this new era

1270
01:34:21.520 --> 01:34:26.659
from a from a point of view of someone who wants, you know, just a really stable

1271
01:34:28.864 --> 01:34:31.844
money that I protocol that I can rely on,

1272
01:34:33.905 --> 01:34:36.085
there I think there's a decent argument

1273
01:34:37.505 --> 01:34:38.085
that deliberately

1274
01:34:39.185 --> 01:34:43.205
saying, you know, in two years, there's gonna be this hard fork,

1275
01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:47.980
and you you can choose which way you wanna go

1276
01:34:48.360 --> 01:34:51.340
is is, in a lot of ways, could be cleaner,

1277
01:34:52.120 --> 01:34:53.820
if if we can't actually

1278
01:34:55.160 --> 01:35:03.815
get to a point, which I think is kind of in less than, like, an overwhelmingly, like, death Bitcoin situation. It's gonna be hard to get to, like, a 95%

1279
01:35:06.115 --> 01:35:08.935
consensus on the software again. It's impossible to measure.

1280
01:35:09.315 --> 01:35:09.815
Yeah.

1281
01:35:10.330 --> 01:35:14.989
It might be cleaner. I don't think it's gonna be possible. I think setting a flag day for everyone to

1282
01:35:15.690 --> 01:35:19.150
drop dead date is going to lead to a bunch of nodes dropping offline,

1283
01:35:19.850 --> 01:35:24.110
and a bunch of other people just deciding they don't wanna take part just because they're

1284
01:35:24.465 --> 01:35:25.445
they don't want to

1285
01:35:25.825 --> 01:35:28.405
they want to abstain. They don't wanna go one way or the other.

1286
01:35:30.945 --> 01:35:32.405
But then that chain dies.

1287
01:35:32.945 --> 01:35:33.445
Yeah.

1288
01:35:34.945 --> 01:35:38.645
Anon just zapped us 21,000 sats. Thank you, sir. I don't know. I

1289
01:35:41.030 --> 01:35:43.369
it's a it's an interesting it's an interesting

1290
01:35:45.750 --> 01:35:48.969
thought process. Like, I just don't I I don't know.

1291
01:35:50.710 --> 01:35:51.210
Like,

1292
01:35:51.605 --> 01:35:59.545
I think people don't realize, like, anyone can hard fork if you want to. Yeah. Like, I we can just do a hard fork today. No one would go along with us. Yeah.

1293
01:36:00.804 --> 01:36:05.385
In a lot of ways, a soft fork can be especially if pushed from a certain

1294
01:36:06.320 --> 01:36:14.000
group of people, could be more insidious. No? More forcer? Well Yeah. Let's go back to your Taproot example. You say it's not if,

1295
01:36:14.400 --> 01:36:27.185
I didn't go along with Taproot upgrade, let's say. I didn't agree with it. I haven't upgraded my node. I'm running an old version. And I'm not gonna see my node's not gonna see or validate a bunch of, valid transactions. It's just gonna see them as any anyone can spend.

1296
01:36:27.725 --> 01:36:33.265
But I'm still able to send my coins to non Taproot addresses. I'm still able to see your coins from Taproot addresses.

1297
01:36:33.750 --> 01:36:36.409
Is that how non opt in is that? Is it

1298
01:36:37.030 --> 01:36:40.170
I've chosen not to take not to upgrade, so I'm not

1299
01:36:41.030 --> 01:36:44.329
taking part in I'm not validating tab root transactions.

1300
01:36:46.150 --> 01:36:47.369
Right. I can't

1301
01:36:47.915 --> 01:36:49.135
do I can't,

1302
01:36:49.915 --> 01:36:59.135
engage in transactions with those addresses or with people who are Taproot only, but I'm still part of the network. I I have some Damn profitably mine. Yeah. That's true.

1303
01:37:00.235 --> 01:37:03.535
At that point, I'm not seeing any of the those nice juicy Taproot

1304
01:37:04.849 --> 01:37:05.349
fees.

1305
01:37:05.650 --> 01:37:06.150
Yeah.

1306
01:37:06.849 --> 01:37:08.949
But I'm still holding my own,

1307
01:37:09.730 --> 01:37:17.429
keys. I still have my own coins. I'm still able to do something with them. I guess the I have a limited subset of options, though. I I can basically

1308
01:37:18.594 --> 01:37:24.135
eventually, if it goes on long enough, let's say, ten years down the line, my only I'm I'm gonna be in the same,

1309
01:37:24.994 --> 01:37:32.935
boat as the page two pub key people are who had who set up, wallets back in 2013. My really only option is to switch to a new wallet or cash out.

1310
01:37:33.870 --> 01:37:34.370
Yeah.

1311
01:37:36.110 --> 01:37:37.250
I don't know. It's just

1312
01:37:37.630 --> 01:37:39.490
something I've been thinking about lately.

1313
01:37:43.230 --> 01:37:44.190
Like, I feel like

1314
01:37:45.875 --> 01:37:46.935
yeah. I don't know.

1315
01:37:47.235 --> 01:37:50.295
I mean, I deleted my ex account, so, like, I lost, like, all this

1316
01:37:50.995 --> 01:37:52.855
history. But I as ballsy.

1317
01:37:53.635 --> 01:37:55.975
No. What's worse than that is, like, the history

1318
01:37:56.515 --> 01:37:58.055
Yeah. Of all the Oh, yeah.

1319
01:38:00.460 --> 01:38:12.880
All the posts and conversations and discussions, particularly around the twenty seventeen fork wars. I don't know. I didn't think about that. But I think I mean, I've been very consistent about it in that

1320
01:38:13.225 --> 01:38:17.245
I don't think hard forks are something to be afraid of. Like, I think,

1321
01:38:18.905 --> 01:38:26.285
because ultimately, at the end of the day, you have agency on whether which chain you decide to go on, and you have equivalent Bitcoin on both sides.

1322
01:38:26.905 --> 01:38:27.405
And

1323
01:38:28.370 --> 01:38:29.010
they'll be

1324
01:38:29.650 --> 01:38:30.630
if if it's

1325
01:38:31.330 --> 01:38:34.230
if it's a strongly pushed hard fork, you would have

1326
01:38:36.050 --> 01:38:37.670
volatility, short term volatility.

1327
01:38:38.050 --> 01:38:44.445
But that's also, you know, the same type of risk if, like, Michael Sailor just started, like, dumping his Bitcoin. Like, we'd have significant

1328
01:38:45.065 --> 01:38:45.565
volatility

1329
01:38:46.105 --> 01:38:49.165
if a large holder decided to start selling Bitcoin. Like,

1330
01:38:50.185 --> 01:38:54.925
it is what it is. Long term, it should play itself out, and you should be better off for it.

1331
01:38:55.640 --> 01:39:00.780
If you if you talk about where Bitcoin was before the Bitcoin Cash hard fork versus where it is today,

1332
01:39:01.240 --> 01:39:04.060
I'm in a way better situation as a Bitcoin holder.

1333
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:05.020
Like,

1334
01:39:05.640 --> 01:39:11.180
is and you you could do nothing. Like, you didn't even have to sell Bcash, and you're in a way better position.

1335
01:39:11.935 --> 01:39:14.595
Sure. If you sold b cash, you're in even better position.

1336
01:39:15.455 --> 01:39:20.515
You got, like, a 20% depending on when you sold, you got, like, a 20% boost on your stash, but,

1337
01:39:22.255 --> 01:39:23.075
I don't know.

1338
01:39:23.535 --> 01:39:24.675
So so my instinct

1339
01:39:25.300 --> 01:39:29.719
definitely leans towards try to avoid a hard fork if you can. But I agree.

1340
01:39:30.260 --> 01:39:31.800
Talking through it with you now,

1341
01:39:33.620 --> 01:39:37.080
the worst thing for any asset is uncertainty.

1342
01:39:37.780 --> 01:39:38.805
We don't Yeah.

1343
01:39:39.365 --> 01:39:43.625
If you have the ability to hard fork at some point, you want to see how that would play out.

1344
01:39:45.365 --> 01:39:45.865
Yeah.

1345
01:39:46.485 --> 01:39:48.585
And, ideally, you'd wanna control that

1346
01:39:49.605 --> 01:39:54.265
scenario. You'd wanna have some agency. Otherwise, you'd have a hard fork thrust upon you.

1347
01:39:55.849 --> 01:39:58.349
Better that we deal with it than our children. Right?

1348
01:39:59.130 --> 01:40:05.230
Well, that's why I'm saying, like, you do, like, two, three years. There could be, like, four or five versions

1349
01:40:06.570 --> 01:40:07.070
of

1350
01:40:07.605 --> 01:40:10.265
protocol software, whether that's core or another implementation

1351
01:40:11.365 --> 01:40:16.265
that is out there and is being reviewed and has eyes on it before it happens.

1352
01:40:16.725 --> 01:40:20.425
Like, there's a it feels like a lot more transparent and a lot more agency

1353
01:40:21.510 --> 01:40:25.370
than potentially rushing into a soft fork that doesn't have consensus

1354
01:40:25.750 --> 01:40:28.650
that just hits us over the side of the head with a chain split

1355
01:40:29.110 --> 01:40:34.170
that wasn't wasn't expected. Because if it was expected, it would have been a hard fork to begin with.

1356
01:40:34.565 --> 01:40:37.145
Right? The change split would, you know, kind of just

1357
01:40:38.885 --> 01:40:47.625
would would would be a immune response, right, at that point. And then everyone's scrambling. It's like, what exchanges support what? It's like a whole different scenario.

1358
01:40:53.350 --> 01:40:54.570
It's like a m v k's

1359
01:40:54.949 --> 01:41:01.935
m v k's in the live chat saying that he's been sending us DMs because he couldn't get the live chat to work. See,

1360
01:41:02.395 --> 01:41:03.835
he's gonna frankly tell me that,

1361
01:41:04.475 --> 01:41:06.554
you're advocating for a hard fork. You need to

1362
01:41:07.755 --> 01:41:12.495
No. I think he's more he he's still commenting on sig bash. He's like,

1363
01:41:16.810 --> 01:41:18.270
he wants he wants

1364
01:41:18.890 --> 01:41:21.790
like, it's like, would invest. Do you see the comments?

1365
01:41:23.690 --> 01:41:29.784
He really likes sig bash. I mean, I was when I was thinking about self hosted sig bash, I was thinking about cold card HSM mode.

1366
01:41:30.405 --> 01:41:30.905
I

1367
01:41:31.445 --> 01:41:34.585
love my cold card. My cold card is my weapon of choice.

1368
01:41:35.045 --> 01:41:37.864
One of the things I'm worried about is

1369
01:41:39.364 --> 01:41:40.425
whether or not,

1370
01:41:42.040 --> 01:41:45.980
you know what? I I can't talk about VT stuff right now, but I will I will say

1371
01:41:46.600 --> 01:41:55.260
if I had to choose if I had to choose a world between SIGABAS having a hundred thousand users and cold card having one more user, it would always be cold card. I'd love you, MBK.

1372
01:41:56.395 --> 01:41:57.215
There we go.

1373
01:41:58.235 --> 01:42:02.255
Yeah. I mean, my family relies on this product, so I'm very grateful for him. Yeah.

1374
01:42:03.755 --> 01:42:11.310
There's a couple people, you know, like, outside of protocol dev that my life would be considerably worse off if their products didn't exist.

1375
01:42:13.070 --> 01:42:27.825
CoinKite, you know, MVK and Peter over at CoinKite is one of them. Sparrow, like, if I didn't if Greg Ra didn't exist and we didn't have Sparrow, it'd be absolutely brutal. Kaludis and Zeus. Like, if I didn't have Zeus, like, where would I be right now? Right.

1376
01:42:28.365 --> 01:42:30.385
But, yeah, I would put CoinKite in that.

1377
01:42:30.925 --> 01:42:31.425
Anyway,

1378
01:42:32.365 --> 01:42:32.865
Arbout,

1379
01:42:33.245 --> 01:42:39.425
we're at an hour and forty minutes. This has been a great chat. I think we've talked about a lot of different things. I people should

1380
01:42:39.805 --> 01:42:45.160
you know, me and Arbout are not trying to tell you what to think. Just, you know, think about these things. Think about

1381
01:42:45.700 --> 01:42:47.880
consensus and path forward and,

1382
01:42:49.380 --> 01:42:51.000
go to sigbatch.com.

1383
01:42:51.780 --> 01:42:53.480
Play with it. Give him feedback.

1384
01:42:54.340 --> 01:42:57.220
Go to somethingmoreprofound.com.

1385
01:42:57.220 --> 01:42:58.120
Read his book.

1386
01:42:58.805 --> 01:43:01.305
If you enjoy his book, donate to p two p rights,

1387
01:43:02.725 --> 01:43:04.345
p2prights.org.

1388
01:43:05.365 --> 01:43:09.305
Arbed Out. Do you have any final thoughts, for the audience before we wrap?

1389
01:43:10.700 --> 01:43:13.920
I don't know if it's a bull market or not. But if it is, I can

1390
01:43:14.460 --> 01:43:17.600
I can give you memories of my very first bull market where

1391
01:43:18.380 --> 01:43:19.440
when I I remember

1392
01:43:19.740 --> 01:43:30.215
clearly walking out of BitDevs one night and hearing every person on the street who wasn't at that BitDevs, just random people talking about the price of Bitcoin and not being able to breathe? Stay frosty.

1393
01:43:30.755 --> 01:43:34.295
Keep your head. Just stay humble in StackSats. Enjoy the ride.

1394
01:43:35.795 --> 01:43:37.440
I love it, sir. Much love.

1395
01:43:37.920 --> 01:43:48.420
I appreciate you. I look forward to seeing you again in person sometime soon. I still have brought great shame to my family as an ex New Yorker because I have not been to PubKey yet. I will make it there. I promise.

1396
01:43:48.800 --> 01:43:50.820
Oh, god. Please. Yeah. We'll host you.

1397
01:43:51.395 --> 01:43:55.574
I look I see NVK's comments now that he figured out how to use the chat.

1398
01:43:56.195 --> 01:44:08.060
He's very excited about v two. I'm also excited about sig bash v two. Looking forward to hearing more about it. Is the last word on this dispatch gonna be screw Marty? Is MBK quote screw Marty? Alright. There's your tagline.

1399
01:44:09.480 --> 01:44:10.280
There you go.

1400
01:44:11.000 --> 01:44:13.180
I love you, Marty. Marty is a brother.

1401
01:44:13.880 --> 01:44:17.340
But, yeah, I all the good announcements should happen on civil dispatch.

1402
01:44:18.585 --> 01:44:22.045
Anyway, thank you for joining us, and I'll echo your sentiment.

1403
01:44:23.145 --> 01:44:27.085
Stay frosty and stay humble Stack Sats. Much love. Alright. Peace.

1404
01:44:27.625 --> 01:44:28.125
Cheers.