CD159: VNPRC - HASHPOOLS

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Created: 05/12/2025 18:57:31
Duration: 3855.274
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Important things to keep in mind if you just look at Bitcoin, it doesn't matter. Right? Bitcoin doesn't care. It's back in the 6 figures with a lot of room to go. If you compare its primary functional use case,

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which is actually a check and a balance on the lack of accountability and fiat unit creation,

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we still have a long way to go. So gold is a 20,000,000,000,000 market cap. Bitcoin is still 2,000,000,000,000 despite functional superiority

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to gold. It's much harder to steal,

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much easier to store,

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much easier to instantly transport, and more importantly, you can actually audit it. So I don't know if you saw, but there's an estimate that said that auditing Fort Knox would take forty four thousand hours and approximately eighteen months to complete. I think it'd be a lot a lot nicer for the American people if they could just go to a handful of auditable,

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Bitcoin addresses on a Blockchain Explorer and see exactly where the American people's Bitcoin

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is.

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Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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That intro clip

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was Bill Miller the fourth,

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who is the son of Bill Miller the third,

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infamous

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investor,

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who's very bullish on Bitcoin now, apparently.

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They have been for a little bit, but that was kind of a bullish clip, and that's why I highlighted it.

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As always,

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dispatch is funded by our audience. We have no ads or sponsors.

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We are powered by

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viewers like you. So thank you to all the freaks who continue to support the show with Bitcoin donations.

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All the relevant links are at silldispatch.com.

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The largest app we received through Fountain Podcasts

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this week was from lean ad with 3,333

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sets

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saying, yes. Bitcoin community is smart, nice, and helpful.

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Aristocracy

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pleb. I am newbie.

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Don't really know what that means. Thank you for your support. Appreciate it as always. I see we have two rider die freaks in the live chat already,

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both Gary and Rob Hamilton.

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It's good to have you guys here. We have a great chat lined up today

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with VNPRC

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who runs TriangleBitDevs

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and has been very focused

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on hash pools recently. I think we'll be talking about both and maybe some other topics.

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How's it going, sir? Good to see you.

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It's great to be here.

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Thanks for having me. For starters,

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well, what's how did you come up with your NIM?

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What's the How did I backstory on VNPRC?

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It's a,

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it's a,

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just a combination of characters that's,

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like, not taken on any social media site.

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Okay. Is that really the it has nothing to do with the People's Republic Of China?

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No. It does not. But,

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I'm sure we could come up with some acronyms if we tried hard enough.

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I always I've at first, I kept getting confused and thinking it was VNRPC.

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And now I remember it by People's Republic Of China. Like, that's how I'm like, okay. I gotta get the tag right.

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But, anyway, here we are. Yeah. So

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I think

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let's just briefly

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talk about triangle bit devs. What are why why are you so because I grew up on bit devs in New York, the original bit devs.

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Why are you so focused on on running a local community of BitDevs?

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Well, local community is is what makes Bitcoin happen.

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I'm a grassroots. I always have a bottom up perspective of everything.

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I started MyBitDevs because we we've had a a social meetup in Raleigh forever.

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If you talk to Simple Steve, he'll tell you it's the oldest one in the world.

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Nobody has contested that claim, so it's sort of like be true. He wins by default.

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Must be true.

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But,

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I,

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at some point, I I mean, I don't know how far back you wanna go, but I've been a Bitcoiner for a long time.

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Eventually, at some point, I I decided to get serious.

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I got really fed up at work. This was during COVID. I got burnt out, quit my job,

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and,

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started going to conferences. My brother actually dragged me to conferences. I I don't really like to travel,

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but, it was worth it. And I went to TabConf,

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like, a month or two later. I knew I had in my mind an idea that I wanted to run a technical meetup because I'm a programmer. I'm a super geek. I like to geek out on the protocol

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super hard.

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And,

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the the social meetup is fun, but you get to drink in beers. You get a little sloppy. I want a deep focused technical conversation.

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And I went to to TabConf, and I saw my first bit of there. I participated in a a session

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run by Jay. I think it was in 2021.

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The original blew my mind. Jay is the guy behind New York bit devs, the original bit devs.

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Exactly. Yes. And, it blew my mind. I was I was just blown away at all these deep technical topics that I'd never heard of. I hadn't really been paying attention to the mailing list or anything like that.

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But I've been studying Bitcoin for,

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I don't know,

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a decade at that point, maybe.

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And then I I I talked to Jay at a bar, like an after party,

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and I said, hey. I wanna run one. And he said, cool. We got a blog post. Just read this blog post that tells you everything you need to know. Next month, I started up, for SpitDevs, and I think that was in,

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December

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2021,

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and I've just been going hard. And on the blog post, if you read it, it's just like, the hardest thing to do is find a location.

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The most important thing is consistency. So I've been consistently hosting meetups,

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every month for over three years now. I did miss two because I traveled to other cities to host vid devs around conference times.

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So,

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but, yeah,

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it it it,

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it's a really it's a really great sort of forcing function because I have to compile this list of topics.

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I have to read about them and learn about them enough to explain them to someone else.

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And I've always believed that if you can't explain something in plain English, then you don't understand it. So I just try to go out and learn this stuff and explain it in plain English

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and, try to grow my local community so that we can have we can have a Bitcoin hub here in in the triangle.

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I love that. Yeah. We're very aligned on that, philosophy.

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As I said, I'd I grew up on New York, but devs,

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and then that was also part of the inspiration for Bitcoin Park

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and Rabbit Hole Recap and Soul Dispatch.

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It's easy to think like nothing's going on in Bitcoin. There's so much there's so much going on in Bitcoin. And, really, the only way,

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is to just get in way over your skis and just dive head first in.

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If you understand everything, you're probably

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not,

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focused enough is my opinion.

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But triangle bit devs,

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so anyone anyone who has a BitDevs near them has not been, should go. There's it's been amazing blossoming movement

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of BitDevs around the country and around the world.

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If you don't have one near you,

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consider at least starting a social meetup. I think meetups are incredibly important.

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Maybe bit devs comes later. I think there's kind of an order of operations to it. We were very deliberate at Bitcoin Park. We started with the social meetup because I feel like it's a high it's a high bar to to run a run a good bit devs.

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The try it's called Triangle because it's Raleigh, Durham. What's the third city?

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Chapel Hill. So it's called the Research Triangle. There's there's three, universities here.

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There's probably an order of,

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popularity or notoriety. There's UNC.

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There's Duke.

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But those those orderings, I'll get it wrong because NC State is really the top university. Go Wolfpack.

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Those other guys, they're just hanging around.

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Do you get a lot of students? Or

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No. I wish I did. If you're out there listening to this and you're a student at NC State, please get in contact with me. We need a Bitcoin club. I've been, like, kinda prodding and looking for some some signs of life. We have the largest engineering college in the state. Fifteen minutes down the road from where I live, we need a Bitcoin club.

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You've got a guy here who knows stuff, hosts meetups.

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Happy to get in there and help you guys get something started. Do they have a Blockchain Club?

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I checked,

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several years ago. I looked online. I was trying to get something going, and I found a website that was, like, Blockchain, not Bitcoin.

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And it was just like, this is what we're dealing with. I think that website has since gone down, but,

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I feel like the I feel like the corporate connections at the university academic system are strong, and we're gonna have to Yeah. Like everything else in Bitcoin, we're we're fighting against demand. We're gonna have to tear down the old system and rebuild a new one.

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Yeah. We saw that with,

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with Vanderbilt,

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in Nashville.

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We basically

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what we did was we we gave

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anyone

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anyone who is a Blockchain Club member,

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got free access

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to Bitcoin Park during day hours.

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And, basically, we we, like, targeted the leadership. They fortunately had some

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strong leadership on the Blockchain Club,

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and we

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we focused on explaining to them why there's Bitcoin and then there's everything else. But when they first came in with their laptops or whatever, it was just like a who's who of shit coin corporations. You know? They had, like, their ledger stickers and their

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like, the the best case scenario was like a Kraken sticker.

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But their whole their laptops were just, like, loaded, Solana, everything.

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So it's a work in progress,

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but we'll get there. There's there's also,

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Arsh, who's most well known for his work,

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with HRF.

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They have some program that they're doing trying to expand Bitcoin clubs,

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around the country because he's a Zoomer and pretty young. So I have faith in Call me. In the youth. It's just gonna take a bit. Yeah. I'll mention it to him. Maybe I'll connect you guys after the show. But, anyway That'd be lovely.

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We're supposed to be talking about hash pools. I'm pretty excited about hash pools. You were at the park,

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some months ago, and we had some long conversations about it.

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I'm a massive cashew bull.

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What, what are hash pools? Why should people be

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interested?

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Yeah. So hash pool is, kind of a new concept in, mining pools.

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It's a mining pool. I guess there's there's kind of there's kind of two big ideas. The first big idea is that you don't need to, have an account to run a mining pool. Ecash makes this it gives us another path. So so I guess the biggest idea of Hashpool is that, you can represent mining shares as Ecash tokens,

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And you can take this sort of account database that's internal to the mining pool server, and you can externalize it as this tokenized asset that people can freely trade.

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Not only is it just an asset, you can do this with shit coins too, but eCash is the most private and most free

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kind of token that you can make.

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It's built on Bitcoin. It's got Bitcoin in its DNA.

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And I think this is where we really should be looking,

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when we look to decentralize the mining stack, sort of fix some of these long standing problems we've had.

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Another kind of key idea is that you don't need to,

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be a top level mining pool. You don't need to find blocks directly in order to run a mining pool.

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In every engineering discipline, like a layered stack,

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is just a a more long term resilient

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and and composable,

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technology. And our mining pool stack is not that, and we need to get there.

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So the idea is kind of you can,

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have a smallish

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Bitcoin club,

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spin up their own mining pool instance, and they actually mine up to another mining pool,

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higher level mining pool that's finding blocks regularly

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so that you don't need, like,

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10 x a hash to find blocks regularly enough to stay in business.

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You can build I call it a proxy pool.

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And this way, you find blocks regularly and your payout is smaller as it should be. But,

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I really wanna enable a grassroots kind of a mining pool where a Bitcoin club,

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person can, like, sell Bitaxes,

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run an ax pool instance or a hash pool instance. We can get into that into the differences a little bit.

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And, provide a, like, a local community mining pool for their members.

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And with Cashew, Cashew has not only amazing privacy, it's got amazing usability.

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So you could my my sort of usability

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defining my my guiding light is I want people to be able to

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buy a FedEx.

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And the first question they always ask is where do I point it? Where do I mine to? And the answer should be you should mine to my pool. And then they can install a Cashew wallet, and they can watch their ecash tokens, their their sats land in their wallet,

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right there in real time while they're mining.

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That's that's the large

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sort of guiding light.

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Right. So

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when people mine Bitcoin,

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this on a smaller scale, the biggest issue is is something called variance. Right? This idea that payouts take a while,

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to happen. And because Bitcoin mining is such a ruthless cutthroat business,

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especially at this point

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in the adoption cycle.

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If you're not receiving rewards in a timely manner and your variance is quite law large,

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the hash rate could increase

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and your

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you you end up with an with an unprofitable miner. You end up making way less money,

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which is why people want regular payouts. And as a result of that, what we've seen is massive centralization

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in mining pools because

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people go to the largest mining pools because those mining pools have the lowest variance.

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So what you're suggesting

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kinda solves that dilemma to a degree. And then I guess the other piece of being a small scale miner is how do you deal with small scale payouts?

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And Cashew is obviously ideal for that. So it kinda hits both of those.

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And then on top of it, it gives the users privacy.

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So in practice,

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I like this idea of, like, I mean, you called it a proxy pool. It's almost like a sub pool. You're like, the pool thinks of you as just one miner,

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but then there's a bunch of miners underneath that one,

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quote, unquote, miner that they see.

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In practice, how does that

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where are we in development? How does that look like in practice? Like, how how hard is it for

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me

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as

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a operator of a meetup in Nashville spin up a proxy pool, like, spin up a hash pool? What does it look like for the user?

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And then do we I assume we need mining pool support, or can I just

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do it with, you know, ocean or slush pool without them

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giving me permission? Like, can I just

220
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run it without ever talking to them? They don't even know it's a hash pool running.

221
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You're asking the right questions.

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What does it look like today? You can't do it today because there's no no one has built the technology yet. So that's exactly why I'm here.

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And what was the second part of your question?

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What does it look like in practice

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for what do you I guess,

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since it's not built yet

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or it's not fully built yet, what do you expect it to look like in practice? Am I just gonna be is it could it be as simple as me running something on a start nine?

228
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Yes. Like, how accessible is the actual

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hash pool operation

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part? I assume it's hyper

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accessible for the

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the the sub miners underneath it that are just joining your pool.

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But what about the act because, I mean, I think if you want broad

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success here or scaled success, like, that part is probably gonna be the hardest piece is making it easy for people to spin up hash pools in the first place.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You did ask a question about

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permission. Yeah. That too.

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Yeah.

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So you you

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you could build one of these things to hang off of an FPPS pool.

242
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I don't think it makes a lot of sense. I think PPLNS is the way to go

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because

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the crucial difference between well, there's a couple of big differences. I think most important for this discussion is that an FPPS pool

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assumes the the payout variance or the luck risk, and this is just another way to say that they're pricing the hash rate for you. So when you mine to an FPPS pool, they determine the price, and they give you a flat payout for each hash.

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A PPLNS

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pool

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pushes that pushes that luck risk and that,

249
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pricing down to you, the miner.

250
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And I think this is what we need for that like, that's a composable stack. We can build on top of that. If you are mining on top of an an FBPS pool and, for example, you

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wanna do a PPLNS payout system,

252
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you're actually paying a fee upstream to the pool to price hash rate for you, and then you're producing these eCash tokens that users, individuals, can use to price hash rate as well by trading them amongst each other. So I just don't think it makes economic sense to pay upstream and then have another market under that.

253
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So to answer the question about permission, you don't need permission.

254
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I can spin up an account at a mining pool today, any any, mining pool that doesn't require KYC information.

255
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And PPLNS,

256
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non KYC, the only game in town is Ocean. So I think we can build the stack, and I have every intention to build this hanging off of Ocean mining,

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which which is great because we can take all these bid access out there that are solo mining. We can take that hash rate, and we can funnel it into the best mining pool that's doing the right thing, allowing miners to mine on their own templates, and sort of, like, strike back at the at the man, which is one one one aspect that I really enjoy about this.

258
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I also wanna point out Yeah. Go on.

259
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You mentioned earlier,

260
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the that that the payout variance makes makes small scale mining hard. I think there's actually two issues here. Payout variance is one, but we can kind of tune that.

261
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And the bigger issue is the minimum payout threshold.

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So if I'm mining to,

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one of these large monolithic mining pools, I need to earn

264
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several hundred or thousands of dollars in order to afford a payout. And on a bid access, it's just not feasible.

265
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Like you said, that the hash rate will go up before. You can never afford one of those payouts, and you're essentially

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you know, you're you're you're running slower than the the field goal is moving away from you. Because they need to pay you out on chain. So if the, like, the outputs are too small, then it's not economic it doesn't make economic sense.

267
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Yes. Although I'm working on something. I'm not ready to talk about it yet, but I think I have something in mind for that.

268
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But what, Ecash lets us do is we can drop this minimum payout threshold from thousands of dollars effectively down to zero or down to one sat.

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So you can plug your bid acts in in mine, and what happens is the Ecash mint actually receives the payout,

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and then you just get your ecash from the mint. And it is it is custodial. We can get into that later. I'm sure you're gonna ask some questions in that regard, but,

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this is how we get this is how we get one set payouts. It's it's just not feasible with any other technology.

272
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Yeah. I mean, the status quo the status quo is custodial anyway, so I feel like it's kind of

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a, you know, just strictly net net benefit.

274
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Right. The choice is between,

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a captured custodial account

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with a where you have to earn a large payout or, like, a custodial,

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private microtransaction,

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non account system. It's like win win win.

279
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But but their both systems are custodial.

280
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And then you can exit on lightning at any point

281
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at small amounts too.

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So

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doesn't require permission.

284
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So you don't need

285
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you don't need or, like, we'll use ocean as and by the way, I intentionally

286
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when I used two pool examples,

287
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I used

288
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a f FPPS

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pool and a p,

290
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PPLNS

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pool,

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that both didn't do KYC,

293
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as my example intentionally.

294
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Because, like, for instance, you can't mine with Foundry

295
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unless unless you have coffee with them or something. Like, they need it's, like, more than KYC. Like, you have to, like, actually, like, sit down with the suits and have a conversation.

296
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But,

297
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the FPPS pools are obviously

298
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have been way more successful lately. Right? Like, Ocean's trying to buck the trend.

299
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So I do wonder

300
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if some people would wanna run a hash pool underneath there. I guess that, like, your concern is, like, more of, like,

301
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there's, like, an almost like an arbitrage type of situation. Obviously, you're paying them for taking on the risk,

302
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to give you the blended payouts,

303
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but

304
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I don't see it. How does that that wouldn't necessarily harm the hash pool operator. Like, that doesn't matter to them. Right?

305
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Like, where's the It doesn't. It makes the cost it makes the cost of

306
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it so one of the,

307
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alright. Let's back it up. When you mine a share up to a hash pool, you get an ecash token that represents that share. We're calling it ehash.

308
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So you get an ecash token.

309
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And these tokens are a futures asset, so you can trade them to each other. I can mine up some ecash.

310
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Its value in Bitcoin is not determined yet. So we have to wait some amount of time for the pool to find blocks. And once the pool finds blocks and our time window closes, now the Ehash

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token

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value is set in

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Bitcoin.

314
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And until then, it floats. That's what makes it a futures instrument.

315
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So if you're building a futures instrument on top of a mining pool that's already pricing hash rate, you just pay you're just paying, like, some percentage upstream

316
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to to offer this this, pricing

317
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for you, and now we have this futures market

318
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to again,

319
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where we're already paying the piper. I just think if you stack up a hash pool built on a PP on us

320
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side by side with one built on an FPPS, you're gonna have categorically higher fees on an FPPS pool. I think it will be not competitive in the long run. You could do it. That makes sense. It's it's totally possible. I just don't think it makes economic sense.

321
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So

322
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it it

323
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it it

324
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so if you're mining on ocean, you actually kind of get the benefits

325
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of Yes.

326
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Because but in a free market way that you see with the large pools. Because you could actually

327
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if you wanted to not take the risk, you could just kind of I was presumably, if this is successful, there'd be, like, trading avenues where you can trade it and

328
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and not take that risk.

329
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Or you can increase your risk if you want.

330
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I think the default will be just mine up your ehash and you hold it, and you just wait, and it'll turn into Bitcoin automatically.

331
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And you can just DCA that way. Same as you mine anywhere else but with micropayments

332
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now.

333
00:25:07.755 --> 00:25:10.735
But it is possible to trade these things, and

334
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I think that's great.

335
00:25:13.755 --> 00:25:15.615
I'm not planning to build a marketplace.

336
00:25:16.235 --> 00:25:21.855
I think if there's demand, people will build their own marketplace. It probably should be a Nostril relay,

337
00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:24.970
Probably should have, you know, make or taker orders,

338
00:25:25.670 --> 00:25:31.050
but, I'm not gonna solve that problem. If you guys like the stack, you like playing with this, go out and build it,

339
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and let's free the world.

340
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Fair enough.

341
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I mean, that's the beauty of open interoperable protocols.

342
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So the so

343
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so in practice,

344
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this doesn't require permission.

345
00:25:48.360 --> 00:25:51.180
Is there any benefit if you get Ocean's blessing?

346
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Like, is there things you can do that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise if you had Ocean's blessing? Does it not even matter whatsoever? Or

347
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:06.755
benefit? Well, I mean, they could probably make my life hard by finding ways, like, playing whack a mole.

348
00:26:07.375 --> 00:26:10.034
They can Which is, like, blocking our keys or something?

349
00:26:11.054 --> 00:26:12.115
I have no idea.

350
00:26:12.655 --> 00:26:23.370
I think we're all pulling in the same direction. Honestly, I hadn't thought about that question. That's interesting. I kind of assumed I've talked to the ocean guys, and, I think you while we were talking to them, so I I didn't wanna

351
00:26:24.950 --> 00:26:31.210
I think they could make my life a little harder or anyone's who's trying to build on their on their, mining pool.

352
00:26:31.774 --> 00:26:38.115
So, obviously, I would prefer to work with Ocean than against them, but as long as you have

353
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a non KYC

354
00:26:40.815 --> 00:26:42.835
pool that anyone can join,

355
00:26:43.294 --> 00:26:44.274
I'm not sure

356
00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:48.399
that there is gonna be an effective way that they could stop me from building on their stack.

357
00:26:49.419 --> 00:26:54.880
This is freedom technology. You know? It's permissionless, and I'm very much building it in that way,

358
00:26:55.340 --> 00:26:55.840
intentionally.

359
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:03.735
And I think Ocean is building in the same way. They're building a permissionless tech stack as well. So I don't see any reason why we why we would not get along, but,

360
00:27:05.155 --> 00:27:08.455
the cool thing is I don't see any way that they could really stop me.

361
00:27:09.235 --> 00:27:10.855
I guess they could go full KYC.

362
00:27:11.795 --> 00:27:12.855
That would be bad.

363
00:27:13.715 --> 00:27:14.935
I don't think they will.

364
00:27:15.875 --> 00:27:17.760
No. That's not gonna happen.

365
00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:20.160
Yeah. That's not gonna happen. Same.

366
00:27:21.500 --> 00:27:24.320
I mean, I think they would shut down before they went that path

367
00:27:25.260 --> 00:27:27.360
if they were, like, forced to or something.

368
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:30.720
Yeah. That's why the ocean guys are awesome.

369
00:27:32.015 --> 00:27:40.355
Yeah. No. I agree. I'm right there with you. I had a great conversation with them. If for some reason you're a new listener, so dispatch, consider going back and listening.

370
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Add their entire

371
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their entire team on.

372
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They're awesome.

373
00:27:46.940 --> 00:27:55.280
And it seems like they're finally starting to get some real momentum. I think hash pools here could be a big addition. So one thing that Ocean has is

374
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the individual miners can choose which transactions are in their block using

375
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something called Datum,

376
00:28:04.535 --> 00:28:05.435
that they developed.

377
00:28:08.055 --> 00:28:10.470
And a bunch of their miners have opted into it.

378
00:28:11.350 --> 00:28:16.730
So in this situation, the person who's running the hash pool is building the block templates

379
00:28:17.429 --> 00:28:19.929
and deciding which transactions are in a block.

380
00:28:20.470 --> 00:28:23.130
How how have you can thought about that? Is that

381
00:28:25.505 --> 00:28:26.725
is that just like,

382
00:28:27.264 --> 00:28:35.845
you know, someone trusts you. They're like, okay. I'm just gonna mind your pool. You you construct the block, or is there any transparency element there? Like, how do you think about that?

383
00:28:37.730 --> 00:28:49.905
I'm not I'm not gonna make that decision for anybody. We're gonna build the the best thing we can and push it out, and then we're gonna keep improving on it. I think long term, users should be able to pick their own block, and I and I and I hope to get there.

384
00:28:50.225 --> 00:28:51.505
But, like, for now,

385
00:28:52.225 --> 00:28:55.205
the the simplest thing to get out the door to get people hashing,

386
00:28:55.905 --> 00:28:57.445
on Hashpool the fastest

387
00:28:58.305 --> 00:29:00.805
is that the pool itself produces blocks.

388
00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:10.760
But, we don't wanna stay there. The the nice thing about DATM is that I I watched the DATM talk. I went to BDC plus plus last week, and I watched,

389
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:12.140
Jason Hughes,

390
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:15.660
discuss the DATM architecture, and it blew my mind.

391
00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:16.440
Because,

392
00:29:16.985 --> 00:29:26.045
when we talk about proxy pools, they've already gone out and built it. I've been, like, planning this for a long time. They just went out and built it. So each DATAM gateway is

393
00:29:26.505 --> 00:29:31.429
a proxy pool, and they can actually daisy chain them together. So I think there is probably,

394
00:29:32.450 --> 00:29:32.950
some

395
00:29:33.649 --> 00:29:41.429
and and and a side note, Hashpool right now is built on Stratum v two tech stack. That's just where I started. It was the easiest place to start.

396
00:29:42.130 --> 00:29:45.015
But but all I'm keeping my options open for all of these things.

397
00:29:45.495 --> 00:29:48.315
I would love to roll it into the datum gateway

398
00:29:49.095 --> 00:29:50.795
and just have a datum hash pool.

399
00:29:51.975 --> 00:29:53.915
But but we'll see. We'll see what technological

400
00:29:54.295 --> 00:29:56.075
decisions make sense at each stage.

401
00:29:56.695 --> 00:30:01.250
But there's no reason that the end user can't produce their own blocks. There's no reason you couldn't have

402
00:30:01.630 --> 00:30:08.930
the hash pool runner produce their blocks as well. And I think in terms of onboarding new users, we should have the proxy pool

403
00:30:09.310 --> 00:30:17.885
have an option where they don't have to pick their own block template. Because if you just sold a BitX to someone who's interested in getting started, they've never done anything with Bitcoin before.

404
00:30:18.664 --> 00:30:24.285
You're like, here. Have a have a BitX. And by the way, you need to install a Bitcoin node. You need to take a position

405
00:30:24.745 --> 00:30:32.580
on the latest filter debate, decide what you're gonna and produce block templates. Like, that's just too much. When I talk about solving the usability challenge,

406
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.300
this is this is part and parcel. We gotta we gotta take the new users and guide them one step at a time.

407
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.900
And I think producing your block template is somewhere somewhere beyond step one in that journey.

408
00:30:46.435 --> 00:30:47.175
Fair enough.

409
00:30:48.355 --> 00:30:50.055
But that is interesting that,

410
00:30:51.075 --> 00:30:54.615
if at some point in the future, if a hash pool operator wants

411
00:30:55.315 --> 00:30:56.535
to further decentralize

412
00:30:56.915 --> 00:30:57.415
the

413
00:30:57.715 --> 00:31:06.690
block construction, presumably people that are actually sub users of that hash pool could actually be using data themselves and constructing blocks as kind of

414
00:31:07.150 --> 00:31:08.690
a powerful mind bending

415
00:31:09.390 --> 00:31:13.090
concept. You could have, like, a single bid ax, and you could be constructing blocks.

416
00:31:14.065 --> 00:31:15.525
Yeah. Why not? Kinda crazy.

417
00:31:17.425 --> 00:31:28.165
So we have, first of all, shout out Gary. Zapdos five thousand sets. Said, I spent most of my Zaps buying swim trunks at BTC plus plus, but here's some value for the immense value received.

418
00:31:28.860 --> 00:31:29.760
Thank you, Gary.

419
00:31:31.260 --> 00:31:34.080
We have Itz Morrow in the live chat asking

420
00:31:35.340 --> 00:31:38.240
about the pros and cons of this versus

421
00:31:38.620 --> 00:31:41.840
the bulk 12 payout scheme that Ocean has implemented.

422
00:31:42.965 --> 00:31:44.425
Do you have any thoughts on that?

423
00:31:46.805 --> 00:31:48.345
Yeah. Bolt 12 is great.

424
00:31:49.285 --> 00:31:51.145
If you wanna do bolt 12 payouts

425
00:31:51.445 --> 00:31:55.625
and you have the technical acumen to set that up, you should go ahead and do that.

426
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:04.660
It's not it's not very easy, and like we just said, you know, having taking a brand new Bitcoiner and asking them to set up a lightning node, I feel like

427
00:32:05.120 --> 00:32:11.115
it's not that like, that's the bad path. That's that's, like, step six or seven instead of step one.

428
00:32:11.755 --> 00:32:15.295
But you absolutely can do that. My understanding is you need to,

429
00:32:16.395 --> 00:32:20.015
you need to have a lightning node or lightning wallet that accepts both 12 payouts.

430
00:32:20.475 --> 00:32:32.670
On Ocean today, you create an account, which is just a Bitcoin address. It's a pseudonymous account. If you wanna if you wanna just take it a step further and take your rewards in bolt 12 payouts, you need to sign

431
00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:35.070
your bolt 12 address

432
00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:35.950
using

433
00:32:36.330 --> 00:32:39.230
the private key from your on chain address.

434
00:32:39.925 --> 00:32:50.585
And, like, take a new user who you you just told about Bitcoin and explain that to them and get them up and going. You're talking about, like, a day or a week of work depending on their technical skills.

435
00:32:51.845 --> 00:32:55.610
But but in terms of comparing eCash with both 12 payouts,

436
00:32:56.230 --> 00:32:57.130
I think they're

437
00:32:57.670 --> 00:33:02.970
roughly equivalent in terms of privacy. I think ECash actually has better privacy, but good enough.

438
00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:07.770
They're they're they're close enough that it's it's you can consider them close,

439
00:33:08.550 --> 00:33:09.705
but basically the same.

440
00:33:10.985 --> 00:33:12.445
ECash enables this,

441
00:33:13.144 --> 00:33:17.644
futures instrument, so you can't trade your shares with other people. Although,

442
00:33:18.664 --> 00:33:22.680
maybe stay tuned. I think Ocean is cooking up something awesome in this vein as well.

443
00:33:25.080 --> 00:33:26.120
Yeah. Does that,

444
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:28.620
it's more I think that's a good answer.

445
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:29.240
It

446
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:41.035
it's hash pools have less friction for the end user. The other piece is, I mean, I think in practice, what you would probably see with most users right now with bolt 12 payouts

447
00:33:41.655 --> 00:33:44.395
is they're probably installing Phoenix Wallet

448
00:33:44.855 --> 00:33:48.555
because they're not gonna run their own node, which has bolt 12 enabled.

449
00:33:50.030 --> 00:33:53.570
But the problem you come into into play with is

450
00:33:54.910 --> 00:33:57.090
every sovereign Lightning transaction

451
00:33:57.470 --> 00:34:01.010
at its core is got a base on chain and has,

452
00:34:01.790 --> 00:34:03.890
you know Lightning is effectively,

453
00:34:06.164 --> 00:34:10.665
a open protocol for batch Bitcoin payments. So you have an on chain burden regardless.

454
00:34:11.365 --> 00:34:13.305
So you can't really receive

455
00:34:14.724 --> 00:34:19.625
lower threshold amounts in terms of payouts in an economically viable way.

456
00:34:20.780 --> 00:34:26.240
What what ends up happening is you're gonna be keeping it with the custodian at some point along that path,

457
00:34:27.740 --> 00:34:29.840
whether it's Ocean or someone else.

458
00:34:32.365 --> 00:34:32.865
ECash,

459
00:34:33.245 --> 00:34:43.345
as you said, like, you can just be I can just be receiving two set payments, four set payments, 10 set payments. And then, eventually, when they hit a threshold where I can then take them to my self custody lightning,

460
00:34:44.365 --> 00:34:47.825
then I can then transfer them out and just makes it a much cleaner process.

461
00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:52.760
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. There's a great saying Phoenix doesn't work. Maybe because

462
00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:54.680
it's not always online.

463
00:34:55.859 --> 00:35:00.440
I don't know. I haven't tested out both 12 Phoenix for both 12 ocean payouts.

464
00:35:01.365 --> 00:35:08.025
Phoenix uses this really cool DNS technology to announce your lightning address, so that might be

465
00:35:08.405 --> 00:35:08.905
incompatible.

466
00:35:09.845 --> 00:35:10.505
I think

467
00:35:10.965 --> 00:35:11.925
core lightning node

468
00:35:13.359 --> 00:35:19.220
What I've what I've heard is the core lightning is the way to go. And if there's any ocean guys in chat, please correct me if I'm wrong.

469
00:35:22.160 --> 00:35:24.820
He's saying CoinOS, but CoinOS is

470
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:25.780
custodial.

471
00:35:27.485 --> 00:35:28.465
I don't know.

472
00:35:29.085 --> 00:35:31.825
Well, anyway, the point here is that there's a lot of friction.

473
00:35:32.445 --> 00:35:41.585
And I think the point with hash pools is that we can reduce a significant portion of that friction without putting any additional burden on the pool operators, which is already a hard business.

474
00:35:42.579 --> 00:35:44.359
Yeah. And then everybody wins.

475
00:35:45.220 --> 00:35:46.180
In order to get,

476
00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:56.280
spun up on lightning, you have to bring Bitcoin to the table. You have to have some Bitcoin already in order to open a lightning channel or pay out of band to get someone to open a channel to you.

477
00:35:56.835 --> 00:36:05.175
And, again, mining with a BitX, like, we're talking about brand new Bitcoiners. They don't have any Bitcoin yet. All they have is a BitX and some and a little bit of hash rate.

478
00:36:05.875 --> 00:36:10.070
So this really this really takes the hurdle rate to onboard someone

479
00:36:10.370 --> 00:36:14.470
from up here, you know, down to as low as it can possibly get.

480
00:36:17.090 --> 00:36:24.765
Yep. That makes sense to me. It's like the Lightning has a zero to one problem. You can't just start fresh unless you're using custodial.

481
00:36:25.225 --> 00:36:28.925
And if you're gonna use custodial cash, you ecash is the best path,

482
00:36:29.625 --> 00:36:31.405
in terms of trade offs and interoperability

483
00:36:31.705 --> 00:36:33.805
and offline payment. There's so many advantages.

484
00:36:35.700 --> 00:36:36.200
Okay.

485
00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:38.840
So where do we stand on this project?

486
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:44.599
What are you thinking about timeline? How can people help? Like, how do we supercharge this?

487
00:36:45.060 --> 00:36:46.280
What does it look like?

488
00:36:47.940 --> 00:36:50.200
So there's three big pieces.

489
00:36:51.215 --> 00:36:55.155
There's issuance, which is generating the eCash tokens when a share lands.

490
00:36:55.535 --> 00:37:01.395
Then there's redemption, which is turning those tokens into Bitcoin when the pool finds rewards.

491
00:37:02.095 --> 00:37:03.555
And I think we can launch,

492
00:37:04.029 --> 00:37:08.609
with just those two pieces in place. The third piece, which I haven't even talked about, is verification.

493
00:37:09.789 --> 00:37:11.650
And we can get to that in a second.

494
00:37:12.109 --> 00:37:14.369
But, we're closing in on,

495
00:37:15.470 --> 00:37:16.369
having issuance,

496
00:37:16.994 --> 00:37:19.654
ready. I just got sort of a prototype working.

497
00:37:20.355 --> 00:37:24.135
My man Gary, average Gary in the chat, he's my number one coconspirator.

498
00:37:24.835 --> 00:37:28.454
He presented at, BTC plus plus an ehash,

499
00:37:28.914 --> 00:37:30.454
or a hash pool code tour

500
00:37:31.059 --> 00:37:35.880
and, claim some ehash into a browser wallet right there on stage. So

501
00:37:36.260 --> 00:37:39.160
it works. It's messy. We need to clean it up a lot.

502
00:37:39.619 --> 00:37:42.520
There's a lot of, chewing gum and bailing wire in there.

503
00:37:43.125 --> 00:37:46.825
But, we're closing in on the first step, issuance. And then redemption,

504
00:37:47.525 --> 00:37:48.505
we've got this

505
00:37:49.125 --> 00:37:52.165
yeah. Salute to Gary. Redemption, we've got this,

506
00:37:52.965 --> 00:37:56.425
I I think I was originally thinking if you watch my talk at

507
00:37:56.829 --> 00:37:59.569
at BDC plus plus in Berlin, the eCash edition,

508
00:38:01.630 --> 00:38:02.369
I was thinking

509
00:38:02.829 --> 00:38:05.410
more in terms of, building my own PPLNS

510
00:38:05.869 --> 00:38:09.650
payout system, and now I think we can launch a proxy pool

511
00:38:10.175 --> 00:38:19.315
on Ocean and actually just do proportional payouts. So whenever Ocean finds a block, we just take all of the Ehash out there. We close it off. That's a tranche of Ehash,

512
00:38:19.615 --> 00:38:33.670
and it will now have a Bitcoin value, and those users can get paid out. So we're sort of, taking the the the the ocean block time and sort of segmenting up the eCash that way and issuing payouts that way. And I think this will be the quickest

513
00:38:34.130 --> 00:38:40.625
way to go live because I want people using it. I want people trading ehash and mining ehash as soon as possible,

514
00:38:41.325 --> 00:38:47.745
because we have to accelerate, because the clock is ticking. You know? We either build FreedomTech or we succumb to

515
00:38:48.045 --> 00:38:48.705
the CBDC

516
00:38:49.085 --> 00:38:49.585
dystopia.

517
00:38:50.045 --> 00:38:52.705
So I'm just trying to find the shortest path

518
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:53.819
to victory,

519
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:56.619
and, I think that might be it. So

520
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.780
I'm hopeful that issuance, we can get that going pretty quickly.

521
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.965
Hopefully, by the end of the year. I don't know. Time lines are rough.

522
00:39:06.005 --> 00:39:08.905
As a software developer, everybody wants to know when's it gonna be ready

523
00:39:09.605 --> 00:39:17.065
in two weeks. It's an impossible question because there's unknown unknowns. Like, everything between now and the finish line is unknown unknowns.

524
00:39:17.525 --> 00:39:19.465
I can estimate the known knowns,

525
00:39:20.180 --> 00:39:23.320
but you never know what's gonna pop up. There might be some technical challenge.

526
00:39:25.620 --> 00:39:27.400
Yeah. Did that answer your question?

527
00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:30.920
Yeah.

528
00:39:31.460 --> 00:39:35.635
I guess it it did. So you mentioned you mentioned

529
00:39:36.015 --> 00:39:37.635
verification. What is that piece?

530
00:39:38.575 --> 00:39:39.315
Ah, verification.

531
00:39:40.255 --> 00:39:52.359
So this is one of the really cool things that, kind of I was thinking about this before I even decided to start building on this, and it solves a lot of problems. It seems to like, the puzzle piece just seems to naturally fit.

532
00:39:53.140 --> 00:39:54.680
There's this protocol called,

533
00:39:55.140 --> 00:40:00.680
proof of liabilities. It's really a protocol sketch that Cali published some time ago, years ago.

534
00:40:01.185 --> 00:40:04.325
I was reading an early draft of that, and that really got the wheels turning.

535
00:40:04.705 --> 00:40:09.445
But, basically, in an ECache Mint, you can collect all of these blinded messages, blinded secrets,

536
00:40:09.745 --> 00:40:11.685
unblinded messages, unblinded secrets,

537
00:40:12.145 --> 00:40:12.865
and you can,

538
00:40:13.505 --> 00:40:16.885
well okay. You you collect the blinded ones, and you publish a report

539
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:23.160
after the e cash epoch expires. So this is when you so in an e cash mint, you have all of these,

540
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:25.260
public private key pairs.

541
00:40:25.799 --> 00:40:35.355
You've got the whole this whole set of them, and they each sign a a denomination of token. The a denomination is like a bill. Like, you have a $1 bill, fives, tens, twenties.

542
00:40:35.735 --> 00:40:38.235
In ECash, you have, bills as well.

543
00:40:38.535 --> 00:40:54.609
And there's a different private key that signs each bill, and that's how the Mint knows what they are. And periodically, they're gonna rotate these private keys, and that sort of closes off it's like saying we're not gonna issue any more eCash with those keys. We've got a new set of keys now.

544
00:40:56.190 --> 00:40:57.490
We can tap into this

545
00:40:57.790 --> 00:40:58.290
and

546
00:40:58.765 --> 00:41:00.945
publish a report of a closed epoch

547
00:41:01.405 --> 00:41:04.145
and all the secrets that the Mint knew about,

548
00:41:05.484 --> 00:41:11.025
zip them up in a Merkle tree, a Merkle sum tree so that we know that that they total up to the right amount

549
00:41:11.770 --> 00:41:16.990
and publish it. And anyone can come by after the fact and their wallet if their wallet supports this protocol,

550
00:41:17.370 --> 00:41:18.750
they'll have their secrets

551
00:41:19.130 --> 00:41:28.745
in their wallet that they gave to the Mint and the and the signed messages that they got back. And they can verify that all of their eCash operations with the Mint are represented.

552
00:41:29.125 --> 00:41:31.065
So we have this sort of distributed,

553
00:41:31.605 --> 00:41:32.105
verification

554
00:41:32.565 --> 00:41:33.065
process.

555
00:41:34.085 --> 00:41:35.145
And the cool thing

556
00:41:35.525 --> 00:41:36.345
about Hashpool

557
00:41:36.805 --> 00:41:38.745
so so Cali figured all that out.

558
00:41:39.330 --> 00:41:41.750
He's he's a gigabrain. I love that guy. Legend

559
00:41:42.130 --> 00:41:47.670
among men. A legend among men. Allegedly, a man, although I won't be sure.

560
00:41:49.170 --> 00:41:52.310
The cool thing about Hashpool is that, we're trading

561
00:41:53.445 --> 00:42:02.585
shares for ecash. So we've got this proof of liabilities. We can prove all these ecash tokens. We also have mining going on on the front side, another provably

562
00:42:03.445 --> 00:42:03.945
verifiable

563
00:42:04.245 --> 00:42:04.745
process.

564
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:11.260
So for every block height, we know what what block template we could mine on at that height,

565
00:42:11.720 --> 00:42:13.160
and we've got a share, which,

566
00:42:14.200 --> 00:42:17.740
adds up to this this, like, random number with a bunch of zeros at the front.

567
00:42:18.305 --> 00:42:22.005
We can just publish all of this information in another Merkle sum tree,

568
00:42:22.305 --> 00:42:26.805
and now we've got assets on one side and liabilities on the other. We can put them put them together

569
00:42:27.105 --> 00:42:30.565
and publish a proof of a % of all the mining pool operations

570
00:42:31.520 --> 00:42:35.060
and sort of after the fact prove with with absolute fidelity

571
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.740
that this is a fair a fairly operating mining pool.

572
00:42:39.200 --> 00:42:41.940
And by the way, it preserves user privacy also.

573
00:42:42.240 --> 00:42:47.875
I mean, if somebody knows what hashes you're mining on or what templates you're mining on, they they can probably dox you that way. But

574
00:42:48.495 --> 00:42:51.155
Because the concern is that the hash pool operator

575
00:42:52.095 --> 00:42:54.575
would be leaving some on the like, you would just take

576
00:42:55.215 --> 00:42:59.240
could take a portion of the rewards and not pay you out effectively.

577
00:42:59.540 --> 00:43:01.000
Right? Or I guess they could

578
00:43:01.540 --> 00:43:04.520
even inflate the ehash supply. Right? They could just be,

579
00:43:06.180 --> 00:43:08.840
generating ehash without actually doing work

580
00:43:09.220 --> 00:43:10.420
and inflating your

581
00:43:12.945 --> 00:43:16.325
but so this would solve that, or would there still be concerns with that?

582
00:43:17.665 --> 00:43:19.445
I think it totally solves it.

583
00:43:19.985 --> 00:43:21.445
If you read the proof of liabilities,

584
00:43:22.065 --> 00:43:24.245
protocol, there's a couple of gaps.

585
00:43:25.610 --> 00:43:26.110
Namely,

586
00:43:26.490 --> 00:43:27.770
we can only verify

587
00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:31.310
so we're relying on the users to verify

588
00:43:31.850 --> 00:43:33.950
their e cash on in their wallet,

589
00:43:34.730 --> 00:43:37.452
but I think that's okay. The the real asset

590
00:43:37.989 --> 00:43:44.375
what other people had, so I can't verify that the whole thing is correct. I can just verify that I'm getting paid proportionally.

591
00:43:45.555 --> 00:43:46.375
Right. Right.

592
00:43:46.755 --> 00:43:52.710
When you check your you know, when you balance checkbook, you can only know what the bank is sending you. You don't know what the bank is doing with other customers.

593
00:43:55.490 --> 00:43:57.349
Damn it. Where was I going with that?

594
00:43:58.609 --> 00:44:02.230
You're gonna do you require as purse it requires the individuals to verify.

595
00:44:02.845 --> 00:44:08.065
Yes. Oh, the gaps. The gaps in the protocol. So How does a high school operator fuck you?

596
00:44:08.525 --> 00:44:10.705
It's my How do they fuck you? Basically. Well,

597
00:44:11.005 --> 00:44:15.280
let's let's back up. And we're not talking hash pool. We're talking eCash Mints. So an eCash mint

598
00:44:15.580 --> 00:44:17.200
operator can fuck you

599
00:44:17.580 --> 00:44:18.240
if they,

600
00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:21.119
if they

601
00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:24.400
keep if they keep inflation

602
00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:27.760
under the amount of unclaimed tokens.

603
00:44:28.395 --> 00:44:36.555
So if I'm a mint and I issue out 100 Bitcoin worth of tokens, I'm a big I'm a big mint, and people only redeem, like, 99.9%

604
00:44:36.555 --> 00:44:39.455
of those, I can actually inflate that point o 1%

605
00:44:40.460 --> 00:44:48.240
of the money supply, and no one can detect it. Because if you add up all the eCash tokens in everybody's wallet, it adds up to 99.9

606
00:44:48.619 --> 00:44:53.519
Bitcoin. And I I've actually now inflated the supply to 100.001.

607
00:44:54.460 --> 00:44:55.665
Nobody can prove that.

608
00:44:56.545 --> 00:45:02.485
So but if you take so that's just proof of liabilities. If you now come to the other side of the table and prove assets,

609
00:45:02.945 --> 00:45:03.445
you

610
00:45:04.785 --> 00:45:08.245
can you can prove that we we received shares for

611
00:45:08.610 --> 00:45:14.070
that amount to this total amount of difficulty, and we issued ecash that amounts to this total amount of difficulty.

612
00:45:14.770 --> 00:45:16.370
So even if someone doesn't,

613
00:45:17.410 --> 00:45:19.670
claim those shares, if as long as my

614
00:45:20.130 --> 00:45:24.755
share reporting oh, yeah. You did. Okay. So I would have to selectively

615
00:45:25.694 --> 00:45:26.194
exclude

616
00:45:27.055 --> 00:45:27.875
some shares

617
00:45:28.494 --> 00:45:28.994
from

618
00:45:30.095 --> 00:45:30.595
the

619
00:45:30.895 --> 00:45:31.875
mining report.

620
00:45:33.135 --> 00:45:45.520
But here's where here's where it gets tricky for the mint operator. So if I'm mining to the Mint and I'm pushing shares up to them and they just reject some of them or they tell me that they accepted my share and don't put it in this report,

621
00:45:46.540 --> 00:45:51.360
I can go back later and say, hey. Hey. What happened to this share? You you gave me ecash for this share,

622
00:45:51.845 --> 00:45:56.984
but it's not in your report. So what like, what's going on? What's the discrepancy? Explain yourself.

623
00:45:58.164 --> 00:46:02.984
In this way, we can kind of, like, we can kind of box in the mint. There's there's probably stuff they can do to cheat.

624
00:46:03.444 --> 00:46:22.005
Now this is a business, and it's and it's they they can always, like, reject your share. So if I go to Family Dollar and I give them a dollar and I say, I would like to buy this, if they don't give me the goods and services, they take my dollar and they'll give me the goods and services, right, this is any business can do this to you. Right. And eCash Mints are no different.

625
00:46:22.705 --> 00:46:24.965
But we can solve that on the social layer because,

626
00:46:25.345 --> 00:46:29.925
like, that's brazenly cheating. What you need to be careful about, what you need to be vigilant about is,

627
00:46:30.225 --> 00:46:32.165
like, hidden hidden cheating.

628
00:46:33.150 --> 00:46:33.809
Yeah. So,

629
00:46:34.270 --> 00:46:36.369
I mean, with this, it's a little bit different

630
00:46:38.030 --> 00:46:41.010
than solid inflation with a cat a regular cash human

631
00:46:42.109 --> 00:46:42.609
because

632
00:46:42.910 --> 00:46:43.410
you

633
00:46:43.869 --> 00:46:45.569
anyone can go and check

634
00:46:45.945 --> 00:46:49.725
to see how much the payouts have been on the ocean side.

635
00:46:53.065 --> 00:46:53.965
There can be,

636
00:46:55.225 --> 00:47:07.060
I guess, like, presumably, like, if I'm mining on a hash pool, right, And I'm getting ehash. Right. I'm doing, I'm doing the work. I'm getting ehash. And then it turns into ehash. It turns into actual Bitcoin or

637
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:10.420
Bitcoin denominated ecash

638
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:18.045
on the Bitcoin denominated side, the mint, presumably it's in the same mint. Right? Most people are gonna stay in the same mint at that point.

639
00:47:18.425 --> 00:47:22.125
You could solidly inflate on the Bitcoin side if you wanted to be malicious.

640
00:47:23.465 --> 00:47:25.245
Right? There's no way to prove

641
00:47:26.025 --> 00:47:27.725
there'd be no way to prove that.

642
00:47:28.390 --> 00:47:43.035
I don't I don't think you could. How how would you do that? Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right to assume that it's You could just produce more you could just produce more e cash. Right? You can just silently inflate it. If if people are withdrawing, then they wouldn't know until they run the bank.

643
00:47:47.035 --> 00:47:47.535
So,

644
00:47:48.075 --> 00:47:54.015
with the proof of liabilities, there's a continual bank run. So you do run the bank. Every time the eCash

645
00:47:54.395 --> 00:47:55.535
epoch flips,

646
00:47:55.914 --> 00:47:57.934
you're gonna close out that old epoch.

647
00:47:58.630 --> 00:47:59.130
And

648
00:47:59.430 --> 00:48:03.290
in my view, in my vision, I think these Ecash tokens will have a time limit

649
00:48:03.750 --> 00:48:08.250
because, the the the mint doesn't wanna have the so so when you issue Ecash

650
00:48:08.550 --> 00:48:13.015
and then the epoch closes out, its its value is now determined in Bitcoin.

651
00:48:13.315 --> 00:48:21.095
You basically have a stablecoin out there. And we're a mining pool. We're not in a business of stablecoins. You know, stablecoins, you know, go go buy some Tether.

652
00:48:21.954 --> 00:48:29.300
We're not in the business of stablecoins. I want you to close these positions out, get rid of these e cash Ehash tokens and and turn it into Ecash.

653
00:48:30.319 --> 00:48:32.020
So by adding a timer

654
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:34.260
on on your Ehash tokens,

655
00:48:34.720 --> 00:48:40.740
we can force a continual bank run on the mint. So they have to zero out their liabilities in an ongoing fashion.

656
00:48:42.105 --> 00:48:46.525
And I I don't I've I've thought about ways to cheat. I haven't come up with a good one.

657
00:48:47.145 --> 00:48:55.485
But keep keep poking that. Like, maybe So we don't that's not live anywhere in that in regular cashew mints, this proof of liability concept. Right?

658
00:48:56.220 --> 00:49:00.160
Yeah. I don't think we've really, achieved the scale yet to make it worthwhile.

659
00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:02.480
ECash mints today are kind of toys.

660
00:49:02.940 --> 00:49:07.760
I don't put significant amounts of money in there, and you shouldn't either. This is very alpha technology.

661
00:49:08.655 --> 00:49:12.275
We gotta walk before we run, but I do think it's coming. I think it's inevitable.

662
00:49:13.135 --> 00:49:16.915
But so where I'm going with this is if it's actually verifiable

663
00:49:18.335 --> 00:49:21.635
and the Mint operator can't easily cheat you,

664
00:49:23.910 --> 00:49:25.610
then there's actually an incentive

665
00:49:26.950 --> 00:49:29.370
for larger miners to use this,

666
00:49:30.070 --> 00:49:30.810
not just

667
00:49:31.190 --> 00:49:39.185
like, bid access are the proof of concept. And that's also awesome just from, like, a Freedom Tech point of view, onboarding people know KYC Bitcoin, yada yada yada. But

668
00:49:40.285 --> 00:49:48.705
the big big miners have an issue where they don't know if they can trust the mining pool operator. If the mining pool is skinning off the top, it's hard to verify.

669
00:49:49.565 --> 00:49:54.260
Particularly if it's non ocean, it's it's hard to verify that they're they're messing with

670
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:59.380
you. In this situation, it it probably actually would give them a benefit too. Right?

671
00:50:00.080 --> 00:50:05.220
Yep. I think you're exactly right. I've talked to large mining pool operators, and they constantly get this question.

672
00:50:05.585 --> 00:50:07.684
They spend a lot of time and resources,

673
00:50:08.865 --> 00:50:19.924
trying to convince their miners that they're getting a fair shake. And they'll get calls all the time that's like, hey. This share was rejected. What happened? What what about over here? We we got some rejections over here. Can you explain that?

674
00:50:20.470 --> 00:50:30.170
And there's no paper trail. Right now, it's it's kind of just the the trust me model, and they have to build these personal relationships to smooth things over. If you could just publish a report,

675
00:50:30.550 --> 00:50:31.610
publish some software,

676
00:50:31.990 --> 00:50:32.390
like,

677
00:50:33.005 --> 00:50:34.365
like river.com.

678
00:50:34.365 --> 00:50:40.305
They have, quarter is it quarterly or monthly audits? They just push push it all out there, and you can verify yourself.

679
00:50:41.165 --> 00:50:47.665
This is where we're going. Big shout out to River. These guys are crushing it. I love what you're doing. We're gonna do the same thing in the mining pool world.

680
00:50:49.040 --> 00:50:49.860
That's awesome.

681
00:50:52.080 --> 00:50:53.619
I mean, I think that that

682
00:50:55.600 --> 00:51:01.700
I'm I'm not gonna compare and contrast which one is a bigger impact, but that could be that could be absolutely massive impact,

683
00:51:02.795 --> 00:51:03.934
to have more verifiability

684
00:51:04.234 --> 00:51:05.855
for the larger mining pools.

685
00:51:07.194 --> 00:51:08.494
Mining mining operators,

686
00:51:08.795 --> 00:51:11.055
not the pool, the, not the pool operators.

687
00:51:12.634 --> 00:51:13.674
Okay. So in practice,

688
00:51:16.410 --> 00:51:23.230
do I need, would I need a, as a user, let's say I'm a humble bit ex owner, never used Bitcoin before my life.

689
00:51:23.690 --> 00:51:27.309
Will I just be able to use like any, any Cashew wallet

690
00:51:28.265 --> 00:51:32.425
with to receive my ehash? Like, can I just use Cashew.me

691
00:51:32.425 --> 00:51:39.245
and just receive my ehash there and spend my ecash there? And you don't need to set up a new, you

692
00:51:39.705 --> 00:51:42.205
know, front facing wallet interface? Or

693
00:51:42.720 --> 00:51:45.060
Yep. That's exactly what we're shooting for.

694
00:51:45.680 --> 00:51:46.180
And,

695
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:48.740
yeah, we so we're making it,

696
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.180
compliant with the spec. The first design

697
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:57.860
sort of, built it the way that it was the first iteration, the way it made sense in my head.

698
00:51:58.464 --> 00:52:02.765
I brought a PR to the CDK meetup, the Cashew DevKit meetup, and they were like,

699
00:52:03.385 --> 00:52:09.485
yeah. This is okay. You should, read the spec though and follow the quote design, and so we've been redesigning it.

700
00:52:10.025 --> 00:52:11.310
I actually read the spec.

701
00:52:13.150 --> 00:52:16.510
And, now it's now it's it's a pretty sweet system. So,

702
00:52:17.390 --> 00:52:18.450
in the new design,

703
00:52:18.910 --> 00:52:20.450
I want you to be able to,

704
00:52:20.910 --> 00:52:22.770
just have a wallet, have your BIDEX.

705
00:52:23.405 --> 00:52:32.545
You you you plug in your BIDEX, you get it going, and then you don't have to talk to your BIDEX anymore. And you can just pull up your wallet on your phone and sweep the, tokens from the mint in that way.

706
00:52:33.724 --> 00:52:42.359
You're gonna have to have a shared secret. So when you plug up your BIDEX and and the first design is also gonna have a proxy that you have to run

707
00:52:42.819 --> 00:52:43.460
on your,

708
00:52:43.859 --> 00:52:46.279
local server, your self hosted server.

709
00:52:46.900 --> 00:52:51.685
So you'll you'll run so kinda like a datum gateway. You'll you'll run this app on your server.

710
00:52:51.985 --> 00:52:54.085
You'll point your bid acts to your own,

711
00:52:54.625 --> 00:52:56.325
proxy on your local network.

712
00:52:56.865 --> 00:53:01.605
It actually is cashew aware, so it's doing all the wallet stuff on your home server,

713
00:53:01.970 --> 00:53:03.430
sending the blinded secrets,

714
00:53:04.369 --> 00:53:05.349
through the stratum,

715
00:53:05.809 --> 00:53:07.029
messaging protocol

716
00:53:07.890 --> 00:53:14.069
to the mining pool or the act the the the axe pool. Axe pool is what we're calling the one built on ocean.

717
00:53:14.385 --> 00:53:20.165
Hash pool is is sort of this other project that is not a proxy pool. It just mines blocks directly.

718
00:53:20.785 --> 00:53:21.285
Okay.

719
00:53:22.305 --> 00:53:23.825
So in axe pool, you run a

720
00:53:24.465 --> 00:53:26.325
in the first iteration, you run a

721
00:53:26.705 --> 00:53:33.720
a a stratum proxy on your self hosted server. You mine So it's a star nine. You're running it on, like, a star nine. Boom.

722
00:53:34.180 --> 00:53:46.675
Yes. And you plug in a shared secret, and then you have a Casio wallet. You put in the same shared secret into your wallet. And now when you mine up a share, it just lives at the mint. And you open your wallet whenever at your leisure,

723
00:53:46.975 --> 00:53:50.595
and it'll go to the mint, and it'll say, hey. Do you have any quotes for me?

724
00:53:51.135 --> 00:53:54.275
Alright. Here's the secrets. I've signed these messages. Give me my Ecash.

725
00:53:54.735 --> 00:54:06.510
So you can just plug and play at home and then go on to the other side of the world and just watch ehash, like, land in your wallet every time you open it up. So both sides need to be running a proxy

726
00:54:07.210 --> 00:54:08.570
on their home server, like the

727
00:54:09.770 --> 00:54:12.270
it's not just a hash pull operator that's running

728
00:54:13.125 --> 00:54:13.625
something

729
00:54:14.885 --> 00:54:19.605
or did that Yeah. In the initial design. And the reason for that is that we just need,

730
00:54:19.925 --> 00:54:23.705
some we just need a Cashew wallet. We have to put a Cashew wallet somewhere.

731
00:54:24.444 --> 00:54:29.480
I think a very, very quick follow after that is to put the Cashew wallet into the Bittax firmware.

732
00:54:30.100 --> 00:54:35.720
And all credit to Scott, he's building in an open source way, so we can do that. It should be a a small lift

733
00:54:36.340 --> 00:54:36.820
to get,

734
00:54:37.300 --> 00:54:39.800
to get that far. And if you go to my website, the Bittax

735
00:54:40.180 --> 00:54:42.360
So then the Bittax is the home server,

736
00:54:42.684 --> 00:54:47.744
right, basically, in that in that situation? Yes. Yes. Now you don't need to be online

737
00:54:48.045 --> 00:54:50.944
running twenty four seven. Right? Might as well just run it there.

738
00:54:51.724 --> 00:54:52.224
Yep.

739
00:54:52.845 --> 00:54:53.345
Clever.

740
00:54:53.645 --> 00:54:55.740
That's that's where we're trying to go.

741
00:54:56.619 --> 00:54:57.119
Yeah.

742
00:54:57.420 --> 00:55:01.360
Because then you really reduce the friction. Then all the person needs is

743
00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:03.760
a bid x and,

744
00:55:04.220 --> 00:55:04.800
you know,

745
00:55:05.260 --> 00:55:07.180
p w a like, Cashew.me,

746
00:55:07.180 --> 00:55:09.840
you could just run-in a browser. They don't even need an app.

747
00:55:10.224 --> 00:55:12.565
And then they're off to the races. They're good to go.

748
00:55:13.265 --> 00:55:14.325
That's the vision.

749
00:55:14.944 --> 00:55:18.885
If you are an engineer and you like to nerd out on stuff, go to hashpool.dev.

750
00:55:19.025 --> 00:55:23.685
Click on the diagrams view. I've got a bunch of mermaid diagrams where we're planning this out.

751
00:55:24.530 --> 00:55:25.830
If you're not an engineer,

752
00:55:26.369 --> 00:55:29.830
don't worry about it. It's just like boxes and text. It's gonna be boring.

753
00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:32.869
Hashpool.dev.

754
00:55:33.650 --> 00:55:35.330
Check it out. Yep. Hashpool.dev.

755
00:55:35.330 --> 00:55:36.390
And read the article.

756
00:55:36.930 --> 00:55:37.750
If you're nontechnical,

757
00:55:38.484 --> 00:55:42.505
go read the front page article. It it I've laid it all out in plain English.

758
00:55:43.204 --> 00:55:48.984
Like I said, I run a bit dev, so I like to explain everything in plain English. And if I can't, then it means I don't understand it.

759
00:55:49.365 --> 00:55:49.605
So,

760
00:55:50.244 --> 00:55:51.625
read that read that article.

761
00:55:53.660 --> 00:55:54.880
Shout out to Drew

762
00:55:56.059 --> 00:55:58.779
who zapped 21,000

763
00:55:58.779 --> 00:56:01.440
sats. Thank you for your support, Drew. Appreciate you.

764
00:56:04.994 --> 00:56:08.934
What else happened? Have we is there anything else you wanna cover before we wrap here

765
00:56:09.234 --> 00:56:10.535
on the Hashpool side?

766
00:56:12.595 --> 00:56:13.734
We're looking for contributors.

767
00:56:14.355 --> 00:56:18.615
This is an open source project. There's too much work to do. I can't do it all myself.

768
00:56:19.110 --> 00:56:20.730
Average Gary is helping out,

769
00:56:21.350 --> 00:56:24.330
bringing up some more contributors. Check out my my issues page

770
00:56:25.110 --> 00:56:26.310
and, join the,

771
00:56:27.350 --> 00:56:30.250
the revolution. We're gonna fix mining from the ground up.

772
00:56:31.990 --> 00:56:32.810
Love that.

773
00:56:34.825 --> 00:56:35.705
While I have you,

774
00:56:37.385 --> 00:56:42.605
what was your thoughts on this last week in Austin? BTC plus plus, how'd that all go?

775
00:56:43.305 --> 00:56:44.205
That was amazing.

776
00:56:45.545 --> 00:56:48.205
Incredible. Nifty puts on an amazing conference.

777
00:56:49.465 --> 00:56:53.990
I saw so so so there's a lot of drama, as you know, over opera.

778
00:56:55.730 --> 00:56:56.230
There

779
00:56:56.770 --> 00:56:57.590
is, unfortunately.

780
00:56:59.010 --> 00:57:03.910
And there was a lot of, events and and and and stuff catering to the drama.

781
00:57:04.450 --> 00:57:04.950
But

782
00:57:05.565 --> 00:57:07.265
after it was all said and done,

783
00:57:08.445 --> 00:57:10.625
I went to an after party, and I saw

784
00:57:11.085 --> 00:57:12.705
knots I saw team knots

785
00:57:13.244 --> 00:57:18.625
rubbing elbows and having laughs and getting trolled and trolling team core back.

786
00:57:18.990 --> 00:57:25.490
So at the end of the day, I I try to I try to stay above the drama. I don't I don't think opportune

787
00:57:26.110 --> 00:57:26.850
is important.

788
00:57:27.310 --> 00:57:29.730
I don't think we should be having all these divisive

789
00:57:30.190 --> 00:57:35.545
knockdown drag out fights because at the end of the day, we're all Bitcoiners. We're all on the same team.

790
00:57:36.244 --> 00:57:41.785
Knots nodes are Bitcoin nodes. They are building blocks and relaying transactions.

791
00:57:42.885 --> 00:57:44.905
Bitcoin core nodes are Bitcoin nodes.

792
00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:47.760
We're all in the same blockchain. So it's

793
00:57:48.859 --> 00:57:52.000
I mean, I could go on and on, but I don't wanna take over.

794
00:57:53.099 --> 00:57:56.480
I I think the BDC plus plus event brought people together,

795
00:57:56.859 --> 00:58:01.385
and I was very happy to see that happen. I I have mad respect for Core.

796
00:58:01.685 --> 00:58:03.225
I have mad respect for,

797
00:58:03.925 --> 00:58:08.505
Ocean and those guys and everything they're doing. They are the tip of the spear of the knots movement.

798
00:58:10.165 --> 00:58:12.105
And and I you know,

799
00:58:12.640 --> 00:58:25.700
I'm a dad times four, and it's really reminds me of when my kids fight with each other. And it's just such a tough spot to be in, and and it brings out all these complex emotions. It's like a swirling mass of

800
00:58:26.105 --> 00:58:27.085
anger, sadness,

801
00:58:27.545 --> 00:58:28.765
disappointment, frustration

802
00:58:29.385 --> 00:58:36.765
when your kids fight with each other. And I just wanna get my dad voice out and tell all of these people sniping at each other on social media

803
00:58:37.704 --> 00:58:39.244
to go to your fucking room,

804
00:58:40.080 --> 00:58:43.620
stop behaving like this. We're all a family together.

805
00:58:44.080 --> 00:58:45.460
Think about what you've done.

806
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:47.060
Behave like an adult.

807
00:58:47.520 --> 00:58:49.700
We can have reasonable discussions here,

808
00:58:50.720 --> 00:58:55.380
but sitting back and, like, sniping at at other bread corners is is net negative.

809
00:58:56.625 --> 00:58:57.685
Y'all are seriously

810
00:58:58.305 --> 00:59:01.045
you're fighting over pennies in front of a steamroller.

811
00:59:01.825 --> 00:59:06.005
We have we have serious problems to fix. We need to fix the mining industry.

812
00:59:06.465 --> 00:59:09.605
We need to, watch out for attacks on Bitcoin,

813
00:59:10.490 --> 00:59:11.710
and, you know,

814
00:59:12.089 --> 00:59:16.190
the the the knots people have some good points. My node, my filter rules,

815
00:59:16.569 --> 00:59:18.589
very good point. They are absolutely correct.

816
00:59:18.890 --> 00:59:24.910
Core people have some very good points too. If you look at it, there's a narrow band of transaction sizes

817
00:59:25.315 --> 00:59:25.815
where,

818
00:59:26.595 --> 00:59:31.175
there is no good choice to get those transactions mined. And so now we've got protocols

819
00:59:31.715 --> 00:59:34.215
that are doing things that are more harmful to Bitcoin

820
00:59:34.515 --> 00:59:40.215
in that tiny narrow band, and we're you know, the the the PR request is to close that narrow band.

821
00:59:41.220 --> 00:59:46.920
And does it matter in the long run? No. It doesn't fucking matter. They're gonna do what they're gonna do.

822
00:59:47.700 --> 00:59:52.280
We we just need to we need to focus on the the big thing. Keep your eyes on the prize.

823
00:59:52.580 --> 00:59:54.200
Stop squabbling like children.

824
00:59:54.655 --> 00:59:58.675
Go to your room and think about what you've done, and come out when you're ready to have a reasonable debate.

825
00:59:59.295 --> 01:00:00.755
And that's my take on opportune.

826
01:00:01.295 --> 01:00:07.235
You're not gonna drag me in to one side or the other, because I'm I'm fighting for the end game here,

827
01:00:07.869 --> 01:00:09.090
and you should be too.

828
01:00:10.270 --> 01:00:16.290
That's my take on Opper Turn. Nifty put on a great show. It was amazing to watch Bitcoiners rub shoulders and

829
01:00:16.590 --> 01:00:23.010
and be jovial. But then, you know, the conference ended and the sniping started back up again on social media. Yeah. I mean, social

830
01:00:23.605 --> 01:00:24.105
social,

831
01:00:24.805 --> 01:00:29.145
it's it's a good thing you, I mean, we we started this conversation talking about meetups.

832
01:00:29.685 --> 01:00:31.705
Right? And social is, like, not

833
01:00:32.645 --> 01:00:34.825
social just brings out the worst in people,

834
01:00:36.210 --> 01:00:40.390
and in person does the exact opposite. So it's like it's a balancing function.

835
01:00:41.650 --> 01:00:44.390
And that's why I think it's important that we have

836
01:00:45.970 --> 01:00:49.109
more in person reaction, not less. And the

837
01:00:49.545 --> 01:00:51.325
front lines of that is meet ups.

838
01:00:53.545 --> 01:00:56.045
The large conferences kind of don't do it.

839
01:00:56.984 --> 01:01:06.750
But the smaller focused events, whether those are meet ups or things like b two c plus plus, which averages, like, 200 people, 250 people. That's probably, like, the upper bound where you have, like, really

840
01:01:07.130 --> 01:01:07.630
productive

841
01:01:08.250 --> 01:01:14.270
maybe it's a little bit higher, like, 500 people. It's like the upper bound where you have actual, like, productive dialogue and

842
01:01:14.730 --> 01:01:15.945
conversation, and

843
01:01:17.145 --> 01:01:18.685
people work better in that environment.

844
01:01:21.625 --> 01:01:25.805
But, yeah, I would say the number one thing that I think is great that came out of

845
01:01:26.265 --> 01:01:26.765
this

846
01:01:28.790 --> 01:01:31.530
debate or drama or however you wanna put it is,

847
01:01:32.869 --> 01:01:35.510
I guess, a lot of people forgot the main

848
01:01:36.230 --> 01:01:37.290
one of the main

849
01:01:37.750 --> 01:01:38.650
core fundamental

850
01:01:40.550 --> 01:01:41.690
values of Bitcoin,

851
01:01:42.494 --> 01:01:43.234
which is,

852
01:01:43.775 --> 01:01:48.914
like, software maintainers don't dictate what you run. Like, at the end of the day, this is all open source software.

853
01:01:49.535 --> 01:01:54.994
You choose what you run. You could modify it if you want to. You're able to verify it yourself.

854
01:01:57.640 --> 01:01:58.140
And

855
01:01:59.080 --> 01:02:00.940
and and there's not like

856
01:02:01.640 --> 01:02:08.060
devs don't get to dictate how you live your life. And that's the key difference between an open source movement

857
01:02:08.694 --> 01:02:17.914
and an open an open protocol versus closed proprietary systems. Like, if Google changes something on fucking Gmail, like, you have to take it. You have no choice.

858
01:02:19.095 --> 01:02:24.950
They will just press the update button, and you have no choice. But that is different with Bitcoin. And it's so it's good to see people

859
01:02:26.370 --> 01:02:30.310
starting to realize that again. The I to me, the frustrating part is

860
01:02:31.730 --> 01:02:34.950
there's, like, 5,000 people arguing on the Internet

861
01:02:35.645 --> 01:02:36.145
less.

862
01:02:36.605 --> 01:02:38.365
And then there's, like, a 50,000

863
01:02:38.365 --> 01:02:43.105
people on the MSTR earnings calls. So there's, like, a little bit of a disconnect here,

864
01:02:44.445 --> 01:02:45.265
but I

865
01:02:46.525 --> 01:02:49.265
I'm glad people are taking sovereignty back.

866
01:02:50.710 --> 01:02:51.530
Yeah. For

867
01:02:52.390 --> 01:02:52.890
sure.

868
01:02:53.990 --> 01:02:54.490
Awesome.

869
01:02:55.510 --> 01:02:58.490
Sir, this has been a great chat. It's been a pleasure having you.

870
01:03:00.550 --> 01:03:03.130
I I think it would be great if we could do

871
01:03:04.665 --> 01:03:07.565
a follow-up at some point in the future when we're closer to production.

872
01:03:08.665 --> 01:03:09.165
Like,

873
01:03:09.465 --> 01:03:16.045
we'll update. That'd be great. So we'll stay in touch in that front. If there's anything I can do to be helpful,

874
01:03:16.425 --> 01:03:18.685
as always, don't hesitate to reach out.

875
01:03:20.800 --> 01:03:23.859
I'm I'm incredibly bullish on Ashpools. I appreciate,

876
01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:27.220
your work on this front. I think it's gonna be a massive,

877
01:03:28.320 --> 01:03:30.500
massive win, for the ecosystem.

878
01:03:32.375 --> 01:03:34.715
Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap?

879
01:03:36.055 --> 01:03:36.875
Thank you.

880
01:03:37.734 --> 01:03:38.234
Appreciate

881
01:03:38.775 --> 01:03:39.275
boosting

882
01:03:39.575 --> 01:03:41.035
my voice and my project.

883
01:03:41.494 --> 01:03:45.915
That's why I decided to work on this. I do think it it will be a massive win as well.

884
01:03:46.990 --> 01:03:50.290
We need funding. We need support. We need people to get the word out.

885
01:03:50.830 --> 01:03:54.530
So big thank you, and keep crushing it. Love what you're doing.

886
01:03:55.310 --> 01:03:56.130
Much love.

887
01:03:56.990 --> 01:04:01.490
Appreciate you. Appreciate you, freaks. Thanks for supporting the show. We'll be back next week,

888
01:04:02.214 --> 01:04:02.714
Monday,

889
01:04:04.135 --> 01:04:05.435
nineteen hundred UTC.

890
01:04:06.375 --> 01:04:07.355
Join us live.

891
01:04:09.015 --> 01:04:10.295
Civildispatch.com

892
01:04:10.295 --> 01:04:12.315
has all the links you need.

893
01:04:12.695 --> 01:04:14.395
Stay humble, sax hats. Peace.