CD155: ROB HAMILTON - MINISCRIPT AND ANCHORWATCH

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Created: 04/16/2025 22:06:06
Duration: 6427.690
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Think it's held up exceptionally well. I think Bitcoin bulls should be inspired by the performance, and it's set up to rally significantly

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if we get a period of stability in the broader equity markets. It's worth remembering the last time we had true economic chaos during the start of COVID,

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Bitcoin waked down to $5,000

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and even below that. Today, we're talking about $80,000.

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It's a different asset. It has a broader

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distribution of institutional ownership. And, again, I think what it's telling you is once this market volatility stabilizes,

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we're gonna see it return to new all time highs and then beyond. It's really a display of strength from my perspective. Wanna jump off of the spot Bitcoin market and talk about options market because in the middle of all this, at the April,

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you launched a covered

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call strategy over at Bitwise.

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How does this work, and what's the adoption been like?

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Yeah. We're really pleased by the reception we've had for these strategies. They write covered calls on leading crypto equities like MicroStrategy

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or Marathon or Coinbase.

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The idea is that the defining feature of crypto, one of its defining features is volatility.

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And how do you translate volatility into an asset? Well, you write calls

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against volatile positions, and you can generate really substantial income. So we've seen strong trading, particularly in the micro strategy product, I missed. I think it's going to have a broad reception from investors who want to have exposure to crypto, but also generate

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significant yields and significant income over time. What role does cryptocurrency

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play in a world where these currencies across the world are becoming more volatile?

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I love that question. I think the answer to who wins in this currency war is Bitcoin.

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Right? When I watched all the tariff confusion play out and what will Trump do and what will China do and how many bilateral deals will we negotiate,

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the thing that's clearest to me from all that

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is that we should expect the US dollar to move lower, that we're moving from a world of the US dollar being the sole reserve currency to a world with potentially multiple reserve currencies.

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Bitcoin benefits when fiat currencies go lower.

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Bitcoin benefits when there's new space for reserve assets. I think it's the cleanest investment

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response

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to the chaos and confusion we're seeing from this tariffs,

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specifically be because it's the hedge

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against fiat currency debasement. And I think we're setting up for that in The US, in China, in Europe, and around the world.

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Yo.

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Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and FreedomTech

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discussion.

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That intro clip

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was

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I don't know how to pronounce his name. Matt Hogan,

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CIO of Bitwise,

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talking about Bitcoin

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on Bloomberg.

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It was a little bit of an old clip. Bitcoin was at $78,000.

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So I don't know. Maybe it was, like, a week old or a week and a half old. The suits are not sending their best clips. I don't there was a scarcity of suit clips out there,

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and,

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I had to use I had to use what I could find now that I'm trying

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to go on another streak of making dispatch

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have

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regular regular

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showings.

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Let's see how quick how how far this run can go.

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Anyway,

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I have a good friend here, Rob Hamilton,

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ride or die freak,

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return guest.

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We're gonna be talking about MiniScript. We're gonna be talking about Anchor Watch, the company he founded around MiniScript and insurance.

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Before we get there, so dispatch is the interactive live show with no ads or sponsors.

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And as a result, it is brought to you by viewers like you supporting the show with Bitcoin.

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2 ways you can do that. You can either join us in the Noster live chat, which is at civildispatch.com/stream.

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We already have

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bunch of rider dies in the live chat participating in the show. Mav 21 is already zapped 10,000 sets. And the other way the other best way is using fountain podcast app or other podcasting two point o apps and sending sets to the show when you listened

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that way. And we have

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the top zap

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of the week was from ride or die freak JCB with 10,000 sats.

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Anyway,

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Rob, thank you for joining.

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Thanks for having me. It's a long time.

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Well, I think it was

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two years

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ago since that last came on. It was, like, February of twenty three. Yeah. So it's been about two years.

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No way. You've been on since then.

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On dispatch?

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Yeah.

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When?

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Really?

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A man never forgets when he's on Sedell dispatch. It's, you know, like,

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you

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I'm not really on the cool kids' table. You know? I'm I'm one of the pointers.

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I mean, it's kind of cool

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because you started as a rider die freak

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before ten thirty one existed and then you launched a Bitcoin business and then ten thirty one supported you. It's kind of cool. We've our journey together is

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warrants more more than one dispatch. So I'm glad we're getting the second one out of the way. You'd think, Marty has me on his, you know, his podcast, you know, which which shows that?

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We've had you on RHR a couple times. Right? You know. I've I've been on our HR a couple of times. Yeah. I get on our HR. So that's Yeah. I get on our HR.

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And, you know, there's, there's another really good Bitcoin show called Bitcoin. Review, like a list of Okay. Anyway,

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so the zaps we got,

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Rob, you zapped our own show. Thank you for your support. Have you ever

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had a guest on the show zap during the show? I don't. I think this is the first time new, new, world record

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largest zap by a guest on the show. First time ever.

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And we have scarcity fight club with 21,000 SAS. Yeah. We did a lot of Bitcoin reviews together.

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And

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so that's also, and that was originally syndicated on this feed as well. So you kinda got those in. That's

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right. Anyway,

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do you have any response to the Bitwise clip in the beginning?

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Yeah. I think this is going towards the general financialization

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of Bitcoin. Right? The the first

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unlock,

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you know, when Bitcoin started,

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there was no institutional

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entity. Right? It started as fully

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either mining it yourself or peer to peer trading.

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And then those markets evolved into kind of, like, centralized custodians where you could buy the Bitcoin and you could withdraw it.

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And now the next wrapper and that unlocked a massive wave of adoption. Right? Because most people weren't gonna run their own Bitcoin node to, like, mine blocks. Right? Those that did were really, like, niche, like, tech power users. And And then the next unlock was an exchange. Oh, I can just go to this website. I deposit money. I get Bitcoin. Most people held it there. Some people withdrew, but it expanded the tent. And the next kind of, like, concentric circle I see are the ETFs, where, like, I don't have to even go to a website anymore. I could just go to my Fidelity, my Schwab account, and I could just buy shares of a company. And so websites.

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But yeah. Well, in the same, you're going to a general investor website as opposed to, like, the Bitcoin

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website. Right? No. Totally. You're right. Fidelity.com is a website. You know, fact check. True. That's why you're you're a good journalist. You're just on top of the beat and doing those live Yeah. I only ask the hard questions on the I'm one of the few in the space that do. That's right.

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And then so the next, like, layer of this is, like, okay. Rather than it being the spot, how do you get exposure to other things? Right? So covered calls

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where you're holding the underlying asset and you sell an option to be able to buy it in the future and you get a premium off that. It's kinda these advanced

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derivatives. Right? And I think there's versions of this. The Bitwise

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product is kind of taking a basket of a bunch of companies. You have with MicroStrategy

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or now strategy, MSTR, and then MSTY with the yield. Like, I just view this as part of more of the finalization and monetizing, like, the volatility of Bitcoin.

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So MSTY is not Bitwise, but I it sounded like he was announcing that Bitwise launched an MSTY competitor. Right? It it sounded like it was gonna be part MSTY, but diversified across, he said, marathon and, like, other companies that would have covered calls too. Right? So any company with, like, a Bitcoin treasury that's similar like a micro strategy, you can get more of those as an umbrella. What's your opinion on this MSTY thing? It seems to be,

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the suit coiners seem to love it.

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So

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I'm fine with it as, like

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you well, first off, you've already taken a step outside of it's not Bitcoin. It's not the spot Bitcoin you're holding your own keys. Right? So Well, that's the funniest cope. Right? It's, like, it's I'm still in Bitcoin because I'm buying MSTY.

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You're you're just not. Right?

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Like, there's just be, like, a hardliner. You're not. I think that you're getting Bitcoin price exposure, but that's different than holding the Bitcoin itself. Are you getting Bitcoin price exposure?

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Well, MSTY specifically, you're actually more of monetizing

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the volatility of Bitcoin. And so

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not not to make this a full suit coin or show talking about, like, stocks and derivatives That's a good place to start. Yeah. The warm end before we get to the yeah. Before we put everyone to sleep talking about Bitcoin script.

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So you basically have,

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stocks with,

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volatility. You can have an option in the future to either buy theirs buy or sell them. And the more volatile the stock is,

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kind of, like, the more,

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more ability to be able to monetize these, like like, covered call premiums because the price, you don't know what it is in the future.

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And at a high level, like, you can tell that I don't really

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highest level, but just you're monetizing the volatility

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of the MS Smart stock, which is And then you get paid dividends.

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And you get paid dividends. Right. Because you're basically

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like, you're you're always better off if you're financially sophisticated in doing your own covered calls because you're paying someone else to run the financial,

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Yeah. They're collecting a fee. They collect a fee. Absolutely. Right? But then the actual stock goes down

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as you're getting paid out the dividends.

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Yeah.

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So you're not getting any Bitcoin price exposure. So you what you're able to do is you could reinvest the dividends to kind of, like, maintain your position,

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but you're not getting right. In that sense, you you don't, like, buy and hold it,

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and you just like a Bitcoin 10 x's. You don't always guarantee a 10 x, like, return. I mean, there was the, Matthew Block here that company, like, was it ten ten one finance and people doing covered calls? There are people that were working on, like, native ways you could do,

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covered call strategy. We can earn yield on Bitcoin by by locking up your Bitcoin and doing a covered call strategy. Now in that case, you are posting up your own Bitcoin. So if the contract exercised it, you could be moved against and lose your Bitcoin because you had to be able to, you know, give up your Bitcoin as part of that covered call. But it's a different

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it's a different level of risk appetite.

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I'm noticing it get to a massive crescendo on Twitter, which makes me wonder if the crates really trades really crowded at this point if everyone's talking about it and doing it.

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A lot of people are talking about it and doing it, and they're, like, selling significant amounts of Bitcoin to do it. That I wouldn't advise. I do find it interesting because I don't see that chat on Nostra. I only see that chat on x. Maybe your Nostra feed is different than mine, but I'm not seeing I mean, when I UI talk.

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When I talk to when I talk to investors,

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it's comes up all the time. Totally.

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That that makes sense. Like, because it's kind of like this idea of, like, you're viewing yourself as a sophisticated investor, and everyone wants to put Bitcoin to work. And and this was my kind of,

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my observation was like, wow. There's a lot of Bitcoiners that are really interested in getting yield on their Bitcoin. Right? Because I think this is the is this the block five this cycle?

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Is what the block five, the covered call yield strategy, like, wrapped equity token like, wrapped equities? Yeah. Like,

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I don't think it's BlockFi in the same way because it's not rehypothecation,

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if that makes sense. Right? Right. It's not it's not gonna if there is an unwind in the trade, it's not gonna happen the same way. And I don't have any reason to think that it's, like, outright, like, someone just forgot to you know, someone barred against their Bitcoin and then the counterparty lost it. So it's not gonna be that level of, like, crap. But, like,

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I could very well see,

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since there's so much hype, interest, and attention on this stuff, you're you're gonna start seeing diminishing returns on the on it. And then there's a whole question around the MNAV where if it starts collapsing to a point where,

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you're paying a premium to buy Bitcoin.

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And the thesis is is that you're able to earn more yield,

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bit more Bitcoin per share. So that justifies paying a premium to the underlying spot Bitcoin price.

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I'm a grog brain. I just view it as efficient markets that over time, that is just gonna compress and compress. Efficient. But yeah.

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In the long run, I just view it as, like, kind of, like, compressing. Right? So Well, I mean, the bigger thing is, yeah. I don't think it's the block even though that's a provocative comment. Yeah.

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It's it's similar to BlockFi in that

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people are just obsessed with yield.

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And they just it's a marshmallow test. Like, they can't just

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accumulate an asset that increases 60% year over year over the last ten years.

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I mean, the other piece I think

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that's important here is

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so the MSTY product, my understanding has been around for about fourteen months. Yep. And if you crunch the numbers,

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you'd be better off

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buying the MSTY. And then if you back test it for the last fourteen months, it's a short timeframe.

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Right.

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I think,

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I think we have Phil in the live chat. I see Phil.

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I think that

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at some point, like Bitcoin is just going to blow it away in terms of returns.

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Right? Like it's it's to me, it feels like this marshmallow test, this idea that the marshmallow test, I guess, is used as an example of of low time preference and long term thinking. Because the whole idea is like, you could tell a child, like, if he doesn't eat the first marshmallow, you'll give him two marshmallows, but most children will just eat the one marshmallow.

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Totally. Because they wanna eat it right away.

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And, and so my comparison would be all the Bitcoiners that are historically have been like obsessed with cashflow. Right. And if you go back like

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any time period

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in the last fifteen years of Bitcoin,

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anyone who sold Bitcoin to buy, like, investment real estate for cash flow got absolutely wrecked in comparison to just holding Bitcoin. Right. And that's what this feels like. And you don't even get it. I I don't there's not even a tax benefit

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because you're paying taxes on the dividend and it's, you know, it's regular income tax.

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It's actually a higher tax rate. If you hold it in a four zero one k, is that the same thing if you hold it in a four zero one k? Is that the same thing if you hold it in a four zero one k? Right. But the but the whole meme is like, oh, I want cash flow so that I don't have to sell my Bitcoin.

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But it's like Right. You could just hold Bitcoin and take,

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you know, sell or spend it as you need it, and I think you'll outperform it. Oh, not by the way, happy tax day, everyone, yesterday. I hope everyone Happy tax day. Yeah. Everyone's done their part. I saw the petroleum accounting team. I gave them a salute, thanking them for their service, doing the good work of making sure everyone pays their taxes.

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They're great. Yeah. They're, best accountants in the space. Yeah. They they've been locking down the park. Like they've just been locking it down, getting their work done. I've been staying in a way to make sure they can, get their work done.

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Okay. Well, anyway, guys, this is not the topic of the conversation, but, Macro.

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I just just I I think people that stay on one stack stats will outperform,

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buying MSTI. So just use that as you will. But My final thought would be there's so many premiums when you buy these derivative products that ultimately in the long run, I think that underlying holding spot Bitcoin with your own keys, like, is the way to actually play the long term mark market. We have John with 21,000

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sets.

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Thank you for the zap. Thank you for the support saying he is the yield. Thank you for being the yield.

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Okay.

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Let's jump into.

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Let's jump into mini script real quick. We talked to, we mini script briefly came up

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in last week's conversation with Dan Gould.

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If you haven't listened to that, consider listening to it. You can just search Civil Dispatch in your favorite podcast app.

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But what is MiniScript, and why should people care?

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So MiniScript

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is

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a way of

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writing Bitcoin script

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that could be more,

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advanced

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and complicated

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without

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accidentally,

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like, deleting your money. So to take it at a really high level, I call it bowling with bumpers

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in that when to to really lay the context,

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every Bitcoin

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address that you see on the network I'm just gonna start there and work my way down. Every Bitcoin address is,

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for the most part I know there's exceptions, but for the most part, it's a hash

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of some data.

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Typically, it's either a hash of a single public key or it's a hash of a script.

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And what you do under the hood

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is you when it comes time for you to spend that Bitcoin, you say, not just I have these signatures, you say, hey. I have this script, and it matches the hash tied to this address. And then from there, the script does the things you want. Right? So the very simple one would be just checking the hash and checking the signature, which is a single sig. You use op check sig, does a single sig. Then the, other more popular one is you have a script of, like, multiple keys, and then you run op check multisig. Right? You have a multisig. The thing is is that Bitcoin as programmable money has more use cases than just those. Typically,

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you see a focus on those two.

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I would say there's a couple kind of key points. One, software wallets, being able to visualize and explain how it works,

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hardware wallets and signing to make sure it's kind of standardized so you understand what you're committing to,

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and,

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being able to organize the transaction. I think we really take it for granted when we have really powerful tools like Sparrow

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that just take care of all of that stuff for you, and you just see a picture on screen and it works. You Bitcoin is a very specific

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picky language in Bitcoin script, and you have to have all of this information. Thankfully, we're at a place where there's plenty of software out there that can kind of handle most of those use cases for you. The reason why you'd wanna use MiniScript, though, is if you wanna enable

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a little bit more,

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options in how you can spend your Bitcoin.

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A really basic example is that you could actually have a two of three multisig that maybe becomes a one of three multisig after some time passes. Right? And this leverages time locks. So up to this point, time locks really only get used in lightning at scale for the lightning channels. It's called a hash time lock contract. You have a hash lock for,

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the justice transaction to make sure that people aren't committing to old state or trying to broadcast old state. And then you have the time lock where, Matt, if I have a lightning channel with you and I force close you,

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you can immediately spend the money because I force closed on you. But

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on my side, since I initiated the force closed,

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I have to wait a period of time. And the reason why that exists, it gives you an opportunity to be like, hey. Rob is cheating me. I'm gonna now take all the money in the channel. Right? So this is, like, this multi step like, there's money with there's multiple ways you can spend the lightning channel, technically.

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And what ManyScript allows you to do is say, well, there's a lot more things you can do in Bitcoin. And how can you safely build all of those transactions in such a way that you're not going to if you're manually encoding it by hand and you're like, oh, I meant to do,

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hash the data, then check the signature instead of checking the signature, then and, like and if you just do it wrong, you deposit money in there, you can just the money's gone. Right? Like like, you you can easily buy on your own computer,

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make a Bitcoin script that is provably unspendable,

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and then, like, you could make it be, like, one equals two. Like, one

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two one equal two fail. Like, it will just permanently fail forever. And so what MiniScript does is it takes all of these complexities and kind of, like, foot guns, and it puts it in a really nice box.

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Specifically, it's more of a developer tool, but what's more exciting about talking to it is what the other use cases it can enable.

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And around that, I would say is that I mentioned already time logs. And for those who didn't listen to this, Sunil dispatch number sixty eight two years ago, which was the last time I was on, there's two types of time locks in Bitcoin.

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You have a relative time lock It was still dispatch 86.

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80 6. Okay.

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Well, BIP 68 is relative time locks. That's why I had it on top of my mind. So BIP 68 relative time locks. And this is a really interesting one where the timer starts

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the moment funds get confirmed on chain. Is and this is using the end sequence element of a Bitcoin transaction, which most people never have to either think or worry about because it doesn't really matter.

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And what that does is that what the moment funds get deposited on chain, you are able to,

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start start a timer. This is actually what Liana wallet uses. So you can have one wallet, and then based on the last time that UTXO moved, you have a different kind of spending condition. So I could have it set up in a way, almost like a dead man switch, where

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if I haven't,

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moved the Bitcoin in a year,

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you can have some other new spending condition get enabled.

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Now the other kind of time lock is an absolute time lock, which,

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is based on a fixed time. You're either before it or you're after it. And the way this works at a high level is every single Bitcoin transaction, Satoshi originally actually encoded time locks into Bitcoin,

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but they were at the transaction level. Think of it like if, I'm not sure if all of the Zoomers who listen to sit all dispatch remember these things. We used to have these things called checks.

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They were pieces of paper, and they represented money at your bank account. And in the check, you had a date field. So you can in theory, I could write you a check for a million dollars. Right? And then I date it to, you know, 01/01/2026.

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You could go to the bank and be like, hey. I like to deposit this. They would look at the check and say, well, it's not dated for today. You can't use it yet. That's actually what the end lock time field is in Bitcoin. It exists since Satoshi initially implemented it,

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and it still exists to this day. And that's actually how absolute time locks work. So what absolute time locks do, though, as opposed to that, the first problem with the transaction level time lock is that,

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let's say I give you a UTXO, Matt, and I could give you a whole Bitcoin,

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but it's dated to block height 1,000,000.

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The problem is is I could go take that UTXO and I can go spend it

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before Block High 1,000,000 and then your presigned check doesn't do anything. Right? Because I've already spent the input. So what time locks do The check bounces and that's The check bounces. Yeah. The the network rejects the transaction. Your check bounced.

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Maybe because I write you a check on paper and then I close my bank account before that that date comes. Right? I could do that in theory. So way time locks work in Bitcoin,

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in the context of mini script in Bitcoin script is the relative time lock, which I mentioned earlier. And then the absolute time lock, what it does is it actually in the Bitcoin script, when you're going to spend it, we'll actually evaluate it and say, wait a second. Like, you have a time lock here. I'm gonna reference in this transaction

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the end lock time and then have I met or exceeded that? Now there's one more mechanic.

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And that absolute time lock, we use at AnchorWatch because you have, an insurance contract that expires on a certain date.

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And because of that, we use the absolute time lock because after your insurance policy expires, you can unilaterally, as a customer, take the money out. Now

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one thing to kinda tie that in there, though, is there are two ways you can do time in Bitcoin.

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You can do block height or you can do the actual epoch timestamp or also knows like wall time, clock time. Right? Now block height is pretty straightforward because it's entirely internal into Bitcoin. You know what the current block height is. That's pretty straightforward.

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The thing, though and this is one of those things, like, going down the time lock rabbit hole. Like, one of the things I find most profound about Bitcoin,

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there is one

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Bitcoin is entirely self referential,

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meaning that you build off top of the previous block, which is a bunch of transactions and a bunch of hashes, and it kind of goes all the way back to the beginning. It's entirely self referential.

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There's one thing in Bitcoin

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that comes from outside of Bitcoin,

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and that's the time stamp the miners put in the block header. And the reason why they do this is to do the difficulty adjustment.

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Right? How does the Bitcoin network know that two weeks what is supposed to be two weeks? Right? And if you have a 44 blocks a day,

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and 14 blocks to make it fourteen days,

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every 2,016

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blocks, the Bitcoin network says, hey. The current time is this, whatever it is right now. Right? You know? Oh, I think we're at, nineteen hundred UTC nineteen thirty three UTC at the moment.

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But what was it

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2,016

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blocks ago? And then it says, oh, was it a really long time? If so, decrease adjustment. Was it really fast? Increase the difficulty.

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And there's actually just two little fun trivia facts because this is the kind of place dispatch

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is the place to kind of explore this, is there's

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two time constraints.

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And how do you actually and this is, like, for how Bitcoin just works as in consensus.

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There's two rules

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in how you manage time. Because the problem with time and this is actually what I would highly recommend reading, Gigi's Bitcoin is Time. It's one of my favorite pieces in Bitcoin, very, heavily under referenced.

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The one thing like, the the problem with time is that it's a decentralized construct and that my computer may have a time and your computer have a time, and maybe they're off by a couple seconds. Right?

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The way Bitcoin keeps track of time in BIP one thirteen says, if you are a miner creating a block,

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your time stamp in your block header

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must be greater than the median time of the past 11 blocks. So you find 11 blocks, you sort them in order and say, okay. Here are the time stamps. You pick that middle one and say, it has to be bigger than this.

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Someone posted yesterday on Twitter. Someone noticed a block was found,

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and it was like, I'll make the math. Like, block height 100

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was, like, six minutes ago, and then block height one zero one was, like, eight minutes ago. And they're like, wait a like like, wait a second. This is the newer block. It should be more in the future. And this is part of that fuzzing in Bitcoin. The natural nature of it is that,

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when you're doing time stamp management,

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you have a little bit of a fuzzy nature of time. It's also a field that miners use when they're doing the the actual ASICs themselves or doing the hashing. They can cycle different time stamps

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to kind of, like, get more pulls at the slot reel before they get another batch of work from from a pool.

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And,

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this is a really interesting thing. The other constraint. So you can't go further back than the median time of the past 11 blocks. That's BIP one one three.

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You can't go further in the future than two hours of your local computer block. So if I was running a Bitcoin node on my computer and I set the date on my computer system time to be

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June of this year, I would reject every block on the network. I would actually I wouldn't fork because I wouldn't be making new blocks, but I would stop getting new blocks because the network could be like, hey. Like, this is way too far in the future. You can't lie about the time going into the future. So you have this rough coordination of every single node on the network has their own different system time, and that two hours gives wiggle room to make sure that no one's that miners can't get too far ahead into the future.

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So those are, like, the big constraints. And then usually, Jameson Law has a really good article on this.

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It's roughly fuzzing within a couple minutes, really, of, like, whatever time is, like, on your watch versus the time and the time stamp. At most, it's a couple minutes normally, but that

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so we use,

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Liana uses a relative time lock with block height, and we at Anchor Watch use an absolute time lock based on the calendar time because we need to we can't, do an insurance contract for a hundred thousand blocks. We have to do it anchored to some piece of paper that knows we all know what time it is, so we use the actual wall time. So that's probably the past two years.

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I've gotten better and better at kind of going into those technical details and explaining just touching the transactions and doing more of it,

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but you're able to use time locks. So that's just time locks. So MiniScript allows you to do time locks. And everything I described, you could do whatever you want in there. And then you also can do,

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thresholds of thresholds. So you could do a multi sig of multi sig, which is pretty cool. And you also can do hash locks, which is a own different kind of side use case. But at a high level, just kind of talking through this,

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ManyScript allows any application dev to build kind of whatever policy you want within reason, and it will make sure you don't have foot guns in how you're clicking all these LEGO bricks together to be able to build Bitcoin transactions.

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So

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that's my, time lock and high level,

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technical miniscript talk.

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Nice.

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Great explanation.

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Thank you. Thank you. I,

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I, Becca was just on the Natalie Brunel podcast, and Becca described mini script in, like, three sentences. And she Natalie said, wow. That's way better than Bob has ever explained it. But, you know, I'm here for the freaks. I'm here to give the alpha to the freaks. So I'm here to go into all the technical things because that's what everyone tunes in here for, not macro talk.

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Okay. I'm I'd I we got to the point where I was just assumed you're just gonna keep going. So then you caught me off guard when you wrapped.

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I, so in so

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so that's, like, the technical side of Yeah. Of

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of what Manuscript enables. From a practical perspective,

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what what can users use it for? Yeah. So

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to take a step back, the the first example I think a lot of people think about is degrading multisigs or multisig that change spending conditions over time.

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I have a I have a two or three multisig, and

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I lose two of my keys, but it degrades to one, so I can still spend it at some point in the future. Exactly. Or what you could do as an alternative. That's a perfectly valid example.

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What you could also do is you maybe you have a two of three

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that becomes a two of four. Right? You could have someone

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offer to come in as a cosigner if the funds haven't moved in a year. By the default, they can't even do anything.

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And, additionally,

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by, like

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even when it's time for them to use a key, they only have a single key. So at at worst case like, uncle uncle Jim Mode,

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I set up my nephew and he has

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a two of three

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and

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he loses two of his keys. And then at some point it degrades to a two of four. He uses one of his keys. I use my backup key. Right. But the whole time, I couldn't spend his funds Think of. Without his permission, but I still act as a as a backup.

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Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's, like, a really powerful use case of how you if you're thinking about it as a sovereign individual, I think that's, like, the most compelling use case in making it disaster proof. And further,

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you could have it be maybe at,

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one year at one year, it's,

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you know, you, and then maybe

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after two years, it's someone else. Right? You can have different things. And what's really interesting too

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is when you combine Taproot with MiniScript,

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you're able to actually do these all as different tap leaves. I'm not sure if you saw the recent mempool feature that got launched. Yeah. It's awesome. It's really cool. And for those at home who haven't seen it yet, it allows you to for tab root addresses. Now mind you, this will only work if you reuse the address because by default, mempool doesn't know that address one and address two are linked. But if you reuse the address when you spend.

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So when you spend. Yeah. So you can have multiple spending conditions within a Taproot address.

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And if you reuse that address and you use the different spending paths,

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mempool will visualize the whole Merkle tree that's used in Taproot to show you the different spending conditions you're using.

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What's really cool is that people have done this and combined it with,

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Schnorr

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to be able to do Musig. So you can see a bunch of different single SIGs,

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but you don't realize that those are actually all, like, different two of three. So you have key one like, Nuntuck actually implemented this. You have key one if you have three keys, a, b, and c, you could have your primary path be key a and key b. Right? That just looks like a normal single SIG.

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Right? And then key a and key c

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can be one tap leaf, and that only looks like a single sig because you do music within that leaf. And then you could have the other leaf b, key b, and key c, and that's just a single sig because it look it's music underneath underneath. Right? And it all looks like single sig, but you actually have different permutations of multisigs

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underneath the hood.

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So that's a really interesting use case for what ManyServe could do is it could allow you to set up these rules if you wanted to, and it would, quote, just work, and it would build the entire Tap script for you and all that stuff, not have to worry about it.

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Okay. What is anchor watch?

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Yeah. So anchor watch is a nautical term referring to the crew of sailors who watch the ship when you're at anchor or at port. And we use that as our kind of our calling for,

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why we named the company that is because we're offering,

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big Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

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We're investors. I didn't know this was the derivation of the name. So they're at port.

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They're

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they're anchored.

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Yeah. Whenever you're at anchor,

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like And and and are are they on the ship, or are they onshore? They're on the ship. No. They're on the ship. At the anchor and just making sure it doesn't come loose? Yeah. So

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the more common use case of where the it's like the night's watch. So if you have to anchor the ship tonight, then you're in the middle of the ocean, you're the it's the patrol section. You don't drift.

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You wanna make sure you don't drift. Don't hit anything. If any if a ship's coming, you wanna make sure you like they're the night's watch that are watching over the the ship. Okay. Got it. Okay. Continue.

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Yeah. So that's actually the original derivation of the name and credit to American Hoddle who came up with that name when we were initially kind of like figuring out like a good

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nautical fun theme to kind of, like, wrap the company name around.

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So we offer insurance for Bitcoin and gold storage. Right? That's the ultimate premise. And that,

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as Bitcoin kinda continues to grow,

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there's a massive gap in the market for custodians in the amount

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kind of like you as an end consumer, what kind of protections you have.

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Really, like, if you're looking at it, I think Coinbase has a $300,000,000

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insurance policy, and they have $400,000,000,000

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of assets under management. Right? And so if something goes wrong, you're, like, an unsecured creditor.

356
00:34:21.724 --> 00:34:23.965
Right? You're not really in a position to be able to,

357
00:34:25.005 --> 00:34:32.224
you know, make sure that if you have one Bitcoin on there, you're gonna get 1 Bitcoin out because it's, like, fractions of the insurance. They have is bullshit. Yeah.

358
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:41.900
It's not the way that if I was using a custodian, I feel good about insurance. And what we've really seen in the industry is that insurance has been used as a marketing tool to be like, oh, well, we have insurance. Right?

359
00:34:42.920 --> 00:35:03.460
And really, you start looking at the details. You're like, wait a second. Do do I I don't have you have insurance. You have an insurance policy most likely with your name on it. I'm not named on it. Right? So this gets into, like, if you're going to care about insurance coverage And then it's also it's like they have, like, one it'd be like having home insurance, but only insuring, like, the bedroom

360
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:09.860
Right. Or, like, the front door. Right. If you had a whole city block and, basically, you had

361
00:35:10.640 --> 00:35:22.275
one half like, you had one insurance policy for a single house, and but it's a whole, like, New York City block of, like, apartments and houses and buildings. Like, it's it's not representative of the amount of risk that sits there. And then you're not even named on the policy.

362
00:35:22.815 --> 00:35:36.600
Right? You're, like, in Right. In this case, like, it it's you know, the the the bank like, it's like the title hold like, the person holding the coins themselves are named. You individually aren't named. And so this was kind of a an idea of and as Bitcoin continues to financialize,

363
00:35:37.940 --> 00:35:40.724
you're going to need to have better counterparty

364
00:35:41.265 --> 00:36:01.390
risk management. And in the bucket of risk management, there's really one thing everyone's done up to this point, which is risk mitigation, risk distribution. Right? A perfect example of this well before institutions and suits were around is the idea of, like, I can have an online offline backup with my keys. And then you had, like, I'm gonna punch it into metal. And then you had, I'm gonna make a multisig. Right? That was all because

365
00:36:01.930 --> 00:36:08.525
with when when you're holding Bitcoin in self custody, what you're doing is you're self insuring. You're saying, I'm gonna hold all the risk. And if something goes

366
00:36:08.825 --> 00:36:25.910
wrong, it's my fault, my problem. Right? There's no one else that, like, comes in. And so what insurances is risk transferring, and that's fundamentally what we're doing to kind of revisit what it looks like to if you're paying for custody fees, what does actual commensurate value look like? And for us, we are what's called the Lloyd's of London co cover holder.

367
00:36:26.290 --> 00:36:26.790
So,

368
00:36:27.330 --> 00:36:28.790
we don't have a,

369
00:36:29.090 --> 00:36:49.255
I would say, a superficial Lloyd's of London title. We are direct agents of Lloyd's of London that manage all of the underwriting, the distribution, and that all gets paired with our custody technology platform, Trident, offering you, when you get an egg watch policy, it's with your name on it, a Lloyds of London insurance policy tied to your Bitcoin in your vault. Right? It's a direct one to one relationship. It's kind of first in the market,

370
00:36:49.875 --> 00:36:51.495
and it's kind of I would say,

371
00:36:52.329 --> 00:36:55.630
our long term thesis, it's going to be the direction in which

372
00:36:56.170 --> 00:37:00.510
institutional custody of Bitcoin starts going to. What's interesting with how we've built our product,

373
00:37:00.970 --> 00:37:03.790
the first one that we launched with, is that you also hold keys.

374
00:37:04.265 --> 00:37:11.565
Right? Which allows a certain level of kind of what we call negative control at AnchorWatch. Never can AnchorWatch unilaterally spend your Bitcoin

375
00:37:12.105 --> 00:37:15.245
ever. Bar none, never. No asterisk, no exception to that.

376
00:37:15.865 --> 00:37:18.205
For the majority of the life of your vault, it requires

377
00:37:18.740 --> 00:37:24.200
keys from you as the customer as well as us, which allows us to do several interesting things where,

378
00:37:24.740 --> 00:37:26.200
if someone broke into your house,

379
00:37:26.660 --> 00:37:47.275
took your keys, let's say you like, you gave them the pin phrase, and they went to go try and sign and spend money, the funds you may have lost your keys, but you haven't lost your Bitcoin, which is an interesting concept that people really haven't seen so far when you're dealing, like, in the self custody model, like a pure just pure pure self custody model. Whereas us, we I do this as, like, joint custody because for the length of the insurance policy, we're a required cosigner.

380
00:37:48.570 --> 00:37:54.810
This is a whole different paradigm also in risk distribution. Whereas the reason why a Coinbase can only get, like, a $300,000,000

381
00:37:54.810 --> 00:37:59.870
cover, they probably could get more if they really wanted to, but they're not gonna get one to one, is that all of the keys are at Coinbase.

382
00:38:00.435 --> 00:38:18.240
So all of the risk is at one company. And because all of the risk is sitting at one company, you now have this model where it's a risk concentration that's parasitic to, like, underwriting in general. And so this is actually how we creatively leverage MiniScript is doing this joint custody model where for the length of your policy, it's a two of three from AnchorWatch. It's a two of three

383
00:38:18.540 --> 00:38:26.720
from the customer, and they both have to cosign to move funds. There is a window at month eleven where if you as the customer lost all of your keys,

384
00:38:27.444 --> 00:38:27.944
Anchor

385
00:38:28.484 --> 00:38:38.984
Watch plus CoinCorner based out of the Isle Of Man can come together to recover those funds as to be able to return them to you. So we actually it's also kind of a different flavor too on, like, multi jurisdictional

386
00:38:39.285 --> 00:38:41.065
custody too because the keys never,

387
00:38:42.410 --> 00:38:47.550
like and and sorry. And one last step. The final layer after your insurance policy expires

388
00:38:47.850 --> 00:38:49.230
is that you unilaterally

389
00:38:49.690 --> 00:38:56.715
can actually take the Bitcoin yourself in your two of three and remove them from the vault. Right? Right? So it's a different custodial relationship than you would have. It's like, hello,

390
00:38:57.095 --> 00:38:59.675
you know, custodian. I would like my Bitcoin back, please.

391
00:39:00.135 --> 00:39:00.875
By default,

392
00:39:01.175 --> 00:39:07.995
it will go back to your full sovereign control at the end of the insurance policy. When we And then if you lose your keys at that point after that,

393
00:39:09.950 --> 00:39:24.530
Anchor Watch and Coin Corner can come together to salvage the Bitcoin. We could. Right? Yeah. So this is a yes. You're actually ready. After the customer gets unilateral control? Yeah. Or is it at the same time? No. No. So, after the customer gets unilateral control, this is the nature of

394
00:39:24.885 --> 00:39:33.785
time. It only goes in one direction. So the way time locks work in Bitcoin is that thank you. I wasn't sure about that. So the way it works is that you have time going in one direction.

395
00:39:35.365 --> 00:39:37.385
Once a time lock has been satisfied,

396
00:39:38.540 --> 00:39:42.480
you can't because the way it works is, like, has this are we greater than or

397
00:39:42.780 --> 00:40:01.495
or before this whatever the time is. And since you're always in the future, that spending path is always available. You would need something like an op expire, which is an opcode Peter Todd proposed of, like, I I wanna be able to, like, expire a spending condition after a certain amount of time. Right. No one's really talking about it right now, but, like, conceptually, you would need something like that to,

398
00:40:02.115 --> 00:40:06.035
definitively, like, remove our, our control. But we encourage you and ask you to,

399
00:40:07.980 --> 00:40:13.280
remove your funds out once that that expires because we don't wanna be in a position where we're able to participate anyway.

400
00:40:13.660 --> 00:40:17.920
So if we do step the process so then you have to create a new transaction?

401
00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:25.455
Yeah. You can create a transaction out. Yeah. You'd be able to create a transaction to move the funds out. And so what we do actually during onboarding But then you wanna renew

402
00:40:25.755 --> 00:40:28.975
like, let's say, I still want insurance. Are the policies all year?

403
00:40:29.355 --> 00:40:42.900
Yeah. They're one year policies right now, but we are actually able to do So, like, it's thirteen months Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when it comes time for renewal, we can roll it over into a new one. We're we're happy to do that with people. Yeah. So we'd be able to help move the funds an on chain transaction.

404
00:40:43.359 --> 00:40:44.020
It does.

405
00:40:45.040 --> 00:40:49.300
So every year, you're doing an on chain transaction to move it into the next one year policy.

406
00:40:49.680 --> 00:40:50.420
That's correct.

407
00:40:50.795 --> 00:40:52.735
Yeah. So correct me if I'm

408
00:40:53.755 --> 00:40:55.375
wrong. Anchor watch is two pieces.

409
00:40:56.235 --> 00:41:02.735
One piece is using mini script to reduce the risk of having funds lost or stolen in a self custody environment.

410
00:41:03.050 --> 00:41:08.190
And then the second piece is adding insurance on top of it because the risk is so reduced that it's actually something

411
00:41:08.890 --> 00:41:10.430
underwriters can really ensure.

412
00:41:10.890 --> 00:41:13.690
Exactly. Yeah. They're they're very tightly linked in that,

413
00:41:14.170 --> 00:41:19.494
our ability to distribute. Like, the technology is what enables it to actually be appeasing to, like,

414
00:41:19.795 --> 00:41:21.415
an advertising risk for underwriters.

415
00:41:21.875 --> 00:41:32.490
Right? So Right. It's an interesting way of leveraging our point low risk, specifically. Yeah. Very low risk. Incredibly low risk. Yeah. And that's why our our pricing starts at 40 basis points per year,

416
00:41:32.950 --> 00:41:36.170
for the insurance piece. Like So that's point 4%

417
00:41:36.230 --> 00:41:38.490
to the Nazis out there. That's right.

418
00:41:38.950 --> 00:41:39.750
And that's just,

419
00:41:40.230 --> 00:41:53.505
I think when if you're in very, very large size, you can get single digit basis point cost, but that's uninsured. Or some fractional shared amount of an existing insurance policy that you're maybe pennies on the dollar. I don't know. You'd have to check, with who you're working with.

420
00:41:54.599 --> 00:42:01.579
But if for most people, they're paying for uninsured custody. They're closer to, like, the 20 to 40 basis point range already,

421
00:42:02.680 --> 00:42:04.299
especially if you're not in large size.

422
00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:13.855
We're live in The United States. We're working on expanding out to, like, The United Kingdom. That's more on the insurance regulatory side. Like, the same it's in the same ballpark as, like, the,

423
00:42:14.475 --> 00:42:15.375
ETF fees.

424
00:42:15.915 --> 00:42:21.135
That's a great benchmark to compare against, yeah, for the ETF fees. Yeah. But it's your Bitcoin and your vault,

425
00:42:21.595 --> 00:42:23.375
insurance custody. Self custody.

426
00:42:23.675 --> 00:42:24.175
Yeah.

427
00:42:24.660 --> 00:42:26.200
So it's a whole So shift.

428
00:42:27.380 --> 00:42:27.880
So

429
00:42:29.540 --> 00:42:32.359
to do all of this in a user friendly way,

430
00:42:32.819 --> 00:42:37.000
you guys basically build from scratch a self custody mini script enabled

431
00:42:38.020 --> 00:42:38.520
wallet

432
00:42:38.905 --> 00:42:43.545
called Trident Wallet. So yeah. And so that's actually for the first six months of the company.

433
00:42:44.105 --> 00:43:01.430
I had, like, nagging the back of my head, like, oh, I could build a wallet. And I was like, let me keep it really small and lean. It was just myself and Becca and one other like, I was like, I didn't wanna go too crazy. And then it just became pretty apparent that to be able to leverage these more advanced security arrangements, we had to build our own. So we ended up dogfooding. We built Trident Vault,

434
00:43:02.150 --> 00:43:06.410
which is our wallet that handles all this with, I would say, a pretty clean UX to be able to,

435
00:43:06.869 --> 00:43:08.650
manage deposits, doing spends,

436
00:43:09.855 --> 00:43:15.075
being able to do all of the information that you would need to construct your Bitcoin transactions and be able to, like, use your Bitcoin.

437
00:43:16.415 --> 00:43:18.435
And then you use that with hardware wallets.

438
00:43:18.975 --> 00:43:19.475
Correct.

439
00:43:20.175 --> 00:43:22.915
So live today, we have the ledger.

440
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.860
I have the cold card working locally.

441
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:31.140
I am working on sequencing that out to be able to turn on. I have it working for both the micro SD,

442
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:37.125
as well as the b b q r. I have it all working. It's just a question of sequencing in and turning it on.

443
00:43:38.325 --> 00:43:38.825
Additionally,

444
00:43:39.125 --> 00:43:48.585
I used to have the Spectre DIY on an older built work. I'd have to go revisit that. And then, like, you know, there's the blockchain jade as well. So there's a couple other wallets that are, like, in the wings, so to speak, to get at it.

445
00:43:50.259 --> 00:43:53.079
For for us, it's really important to,

446
00:43:53.380 --> 00:43:56.759
a nice feature that I like to talk about. For the power users,

447
00:43:57.059 --> 00:44:04.039
we give you the full output descriptor of your vault. You can load into Bitcoin Core. Like, I'll have customers that get onboarded. They're super excited,

448
00:44:04.345 --> 00:44:10.445
and I walk it through how to load into the we have a nice little recovery PDF. You can just copy and paste the command, load into Bitcoin Core, and it works.

449
00:44:11.065 --> 00:44:17.705
So you can actually look at your own deposit addresses, look at your transaction history, look at all of that, and it all natively works. So it's a whole different,

450
00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:31.730
it's nice to be able to also just be able you don't have to trust us in the same sense because you could be like, oh, this is what's on my insurance policy. I have this right here. I'm looking at the balances. I see it. I have a like, a it's totally matched. So you don't have to natively you can use the software. You can verify. Absolutely. The

451
00:44:33.505 --> 00:44:36.405
would you say that someone who can single sig

452
00:44:37.345 --> 00:44:39.125
with a hardware wallet and Sparrow

453
00:44:40.065 --> 00:44:40.965
can do this?

454
00:44:42.385 --> 00:44:42.885
Yes.

455
00:44:44.385 --> 00:44:45.685
I'm saying you can.

456
00:44:46.730 --> 00:44:52.910
It would be a preference down to your hardware wallet probably for a lot of the single sig cold,

457
00:44:53.450 --> 00:44:58.270
single sig Sparrow users would be using a cold card. So you'll we get closer to that kind of UX

458
00:44:59.845 --> 00:45:01.385
in the future when we add it.

459
00:45:01.765 --> 00:45:03.385
The other thing too is

460
00:45:03.765 --> 00:45:16.579
we could make a vault that's just a single six. So you only have one key to manage you as a customer. Like, that's another option too. And then you really I have one wallet. I have one thing to sign. I keep it here. Anchor watch cosigns. And And at that point, the user experience,

461
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:20.660
once you do the initial setup, like, the initial handshake of, like, hey. I'm entering

462
00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:29.299
another wallet, and you have to do this if it's anything but a single sync. And the reason why is you want your hardware wallet to be aware of, okay.

463
00:45:29.645 --> 00:45:33.744
There's some larger wallet that exists beyond my wallet

464
00:45:34.125 --> 00:45:37.265
my hardware wallet I want to be aware of, and you do that registration

465
00:45:37.565 --> 00:46:02.095
as a onetime thing. And after that, everything is the same. You pass in the PSVT. You look at the transaction. You review it. You sign it. All of that UX is identical after you do that initial kind of registration, and we do that as part of the onboarding call. So if you have questions, we can walk through that whole thing, and then we're able to kinda set you up in a really nice spot where you're in a position where you have your key. You're able to manage it. If you wanna spend, you spend just like you would for any other multisignature

466
00:46:02.395 --> 00:46:02.895
wallet,

467
00:46:03.275 --> 00:46:12.415
and it all works. And mostly also too for, like, a single sync. Right? You just pass in the PSPT. It works. Kick it out. Get the signature. Submit it. We do our cosigning.

468
00:46:13.569 --> 00:46:19.490
Transaction broadcast at the network. So I think the UX has come especially in the past two years because I know we were,

469
00:46:19.890 --> 00:46:26.390
downstairs at the, the Park Studio. And, unfortunately, I'd be sitting there today, but Rod's recording the two fifty six podcast.

470
00:46:27.245 --> 00:46:29.345
So I have to be in one of the other side offices.

471
00:46:29.725 --> 00:46:34.625
The I was showing you, like, here it is, like and it works like this. And at that time,

472
00:46:34.925 --> 00:46:43.440
I was, like, three months into building the initial prototypes, and it was all running in, like, local code terminal windows and, like, passing it around. Like, it was very janky.

473
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:51.120
We've done a lot of, laps and iterations in the past few years on really refining the UX, so it's something that you would get with any other kind of general wallet.

474
00:46:51.980 --> 00:47:04.065
I have a tweet for that. I don't think it's my pinned tweet, but I shall could also cross post it over the nostril so people would be able to, take I think I did post it in a nostril. I'm gonna have to go check now. I did, like, a ten minute video walking through the UI and showing how it all works.

475
00:47:04.444 --> 00:47:13.880
But, yeah, like Yeah. That's an awesome demo. I've seen that. Yeah. So it's a good ten minute, like, walk through if you're curious to be able to, understand that. Maybe I'll try to get you to is my point.

476
00:47:14.180 --> 00:47:27.355
Very accessible. Yeah. It's a very long winded way of saying you can do it. Listen. If you want, like, the high signal, less words, you can bring back on to sit at all dispatch. Dispatch. If you want me to wax poetically about Bitcoin script and go along in the tooth, I could,

477
00:47:28.235 --> 00:47:29.695
you you want me on the show.

478
00:47:30.075 --> 00:47:31.055
I would just say

479
00:47:32.075 --> 00:47:35.535
that ten thirty one has invested in 35 Bitcoin businesses.

480
00:47:36.950 --> 00:47:42.089
The longest calls are the anchor watch calls. They just go on and on and on and on. They're very descriptive

481
00:47:42.630 --> 00:47:49.289
in a good way in a good way, but they are by far the longest calls. We pride ourselves on transparency to our investors.

482
00:47:51.225 --> 00:47:51.725
I,

483
00:47:53.705 --> 00:47:58.925
okay. Okay. So Trident Wallet is used for all the setup and management and whatnot.

484
00:47:59.785 --> 00:48:02.205
It's not open source. Why is it not open source?

485
00:48:03.705 --> 00:48:06.720
It is not open source. And the question is why not open source?

486
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:07.619
Yeah.

487
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:09.140
Yeah. That's my question.

488
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:10.340
I

489
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:16.980
it's interesting. Building a business, I've had a lot of Bitcoin companies ask me about open sourcing it.

490
00:48:18.160 --> 00:48:22.099
And for us, we put a lot of time and effort into it. And just to be frank, for today,

491
00:48:22.475 --> 00:48:23.215
if we

492
00:48:23.515 --> 00:48:27.695
did open source it, it'd probably be closer to an MIT CC license.

493
00:48:28.475 --> 00:48:29.215
The NVK

494
00:48:29.675 --> 00:48:30.895
the NVK license.

495
00:48:31.275 --> 00:48:33.935
Yeah. The NVK license. And it's just that,

496
00:48:34.830 --> 00:48:37.810
Which is you can do anything with it except monetize it.

497
00:48:38.270 --> 00:48:46.995
Yeah. And I think for the sake of, like, being able to independently audit, you're trying to understand the security of it all. You're trying to be able to cross verify how functions work. Like, I think that's there.

498
00:48:47.475 --> 00:48:53.735
It definitely doesn't encourage, like, a strong open source code base that's, like, building on top of it because they can't monetize it.

499
00:48:54.595 --> 00:48:55.095
I

500
00:48:56.355 --> 00:48:58.055
am wary of it. The concern?

501
00:48:58.915 --> 00:49:02.375
Like, I don't understand what the concern is. Like, walk me through this. The,

502
00:49:03.930 --> 00:49:06.270
I mean, I think first of all, MIT CC

503
00:49:06.810 --> 00:49:07.710
being able to

504
00:49:08.250 --> 00:49:11.790
do everything, but monetize the code would be a massive improvement.

505
00:49:14.490 --> 00:49:17.790
But where's the concern? I mean, I, to me, the business is

506
00:49:18.105 --> 00:49:18.605
providing

507
00:49:19.225 --> 00:49:19.725
insurance,

508
00:49:21.865 --> 00:49:25.885
which as someone who's seen the inside of your business is a real fucking

509
00:49:26.345 --> 00:49:34.740
pain in the ass of a business to to bootstrap and get started. Like, you don't just, like, wake up one morning and, like, fork code and then get, like, a Lloyd's cover

510
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:36.340
holder

511
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:39.140
status. So, like,

512
00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:42.180
as far as, like, motes go, like, I mean, it's not

513
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.460
you can't fork that moat. That that takes, like, significant proof of work and capital.

514
00:49:48.165 --> 00:49:49.785
No. You can't. I guess,

515
00:49:50.245 --> 00:49:52.825
the first concern is that that's a one way street.

516
00:49:53.125 --> 00:49:54.985
Once it's done, there is no going back.

517
00:49:55.285 --> 00:50:03.080
That's correct. Yeah. So you should be deliberate about it. Right. So it's something that we always have the option to be able to exercise, but it's something that once it's exercised, you

518
00:50:03.540 --> 00:50:04.260
can't undo it.

519
00:50:05.860 --> 00:50:11.560
If I were to put it into a general, like, area of, like, my apprehension around it, it's having

520
00:50:14.020 --> 00:50:18.865
other people come in standing on top of our work and then monetizing then competing for existing customers.

521
00:50:19.165 --> 00:50:22.465
Like, it's not really a surprise even if it's not on the strict insurance side.

522
00:50:22.765 --> 00:50:23.985
I'm quite surprised.

523
00:50:24.605 --> 00:50:28.625
We are a very small engineering team. If you include myself, we are three

524
00:50:29.070 --> 00:50:29.970
full time engineers.

525
00:50:30.590 --> 00:50:31.090
And

526
00:50:31.390 --> 00:50:36.530
I'm actually very surprised at the rate of other companies working on Bitcoin custody infrastructure

527
00:50:36.990 --> 00:50:39.330
that haven't jumped on this. From really large,

528
00:50:41.405 --> 00:50:48.545
very, very large companies that even do, like, everything in in, like, crypto custody in general all the way down to smaller players.

529
00:50:49.085 --> 00:50:54.945
What I typically hear is that it doesn't hit their target use case or they have to refactor their UX because it changes things.

530
00:50:56.680 --> 00:50:57.180
I'm

531
00:50:57.880 --> 00:50:59.100
just not looking to give,

532
00:50:59.720 --> 00:51:03.180
a bunch of people who are gonna be competing against my own customers today,

533
00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:09.180
a massive legs up in being able to take all of our work and time and investment into this and immediately giving it to everyone.

534
00:51:10.755 --> 00:51:21.494
I'm surprised there aren't, like, open I I it surprises me that people who wanna build open source software haven't gone to tackle this problem yet. The closest are the Liana wallet guys, and Liana wallet is entirely open source.

535
00:51:22.914 --> 00:51:23.974
They No insurance.

536
00:51:24.410 --> 00:51:29.310
No. No. There's no insurance. It's fully self sovereign. I'm a huge fan of Leon got Leon Wallachais. I mean,

537
00:51:30.170 --> 00:51:37.230
Kevin and Eduard and Antoine, Antoine's now over at Chaincode, have done an immense amount of work in kind of being able to, like, lift up the ecosystem.

538
00:51:38.135 --> 00:51:43.595
Specifically, I think Antoine did a lot of the work to get mini script into Bitcoin Core. That wasn't a a small staging effort.

539
00:51:45.255 --> 00:51:53.790
For us today, I have a lot of people who ask if we can work together, and then we get on we start, like, getting on a call and start working together. I'm like, well, so you could just give us all of your code. And I'm like,

540
00:51:54.510 --> 00:51:58.850
why if we're working together in a partnership, why do you need my code? So I've been trying to be discerning.

541
00:51:59.390 --> 00:52:02.850
And if we ever pull that switch, making sure that we feel really comfortable

542
00:52:03.310 --> 00:52:17.525
about us being able to maintain as an open source project and then be able to also run our business. It's something that you and I know off camera we've talked around a lot. But for today, it's something that I just don't wanna be able to openly just give that out to everyone right now.

543
00:52:18.145 --> 00:52:21.365
I I'm curious if it's in the best shareholder long term interest.

544
00:52:22.140 --> 00:52:25.020
It's not a permanent decision, though. It's very true that it could be,

545
00:52:25.420 --> 00:52:32.880
something that we decide later to kinda flip the switch on and make available to everyone. And when we do, we'll have to maintain some level like a full GUI client.

546
00:52:33.339 --> 00:52:35.119
I think as an initial step,

547
00:52:35.495 --> 00:52:36.955
what we'll probably have to do,

548
00:52:37.415 --> 00:52:39.755
just mechanically anyway, is make a very basic,

549
00:52:40.375 --> 00:52:49.115
open source GUI wallet for people to download for their sovereign recovery. Because you technically can use Bitcoin Core. I'd like to offer a little bit more of the end customers so that they have something they can download

550
00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:55.600
and to have a nicer user experience than using the Bitcoin Core Wallet for those who haven't used it before. It's a rough wallet to work with.

551
00:52:56.700 --> 00:52:57.440
And so

552
00:52:57.980 --> 00:53:03.615
that's probably maybe the the starting place for us to be able to offer some open source software to let people,

553
00:53:03.915 --> 00:53:06.255
get some of the features and being able to see how it works.

554
00:53:06.715 --> 00:53:09.695
Well, I mean, let's Similar to how Unchained has Caravan.

555
00:53:09.995 --> 00:53:10.395
Right? Unchained

556
00:53:11.035 --> 00:53:11.435
talking about

557
00:53:12.875 --> 00:53:13.375
yeah.

558
00:53:14.475 --> 00:53:17.135
Which is fully open source. Which is fully open source.

559
00:53:18.090 --> 00:53:18.590
I

560
00:53:19.450 --> 00:53:24.430
I like talking about business on air. So let's just you said shareholder value. I'm one of the shareholders.

561
00:53:24.970 --> 00:53:25.710
I represent

562
00:53:27.530 --> 00:53:29.870
our investors who are investors in you.

563
00:53:34.214 --> 00:53:35.675
I mean, I think MITCC

564
00:53:36.055 --> 00:53:36.795
is relatively

565
00:53:38.855 --> 00:53:39.355
uncontroversial

566
00:53:39.734 --> 00:53:40.395
in terms

567
00:53:41.415 --> 00:53:44.474
of people can't take the code and monetize it. Mhmm.

568
00:53:46.135 --> 00:53:47.675
I mean, they could still, like,

569
00:53:50.430 --> 00:53:51.970
pretend they didn't do that

570
00:53:52.270 --> 00:53:57.970
Sure. But use it as a basis to build whatever they're gonna build Right. Which we've seen happen regardless.

571
00:53:58.350 --> 00:53:58.850
Yep.

572
00:54:01.185 --> 00:54:02.325
There is an argument

573
00:54:02.705 --> 00:54:04.245
that for certain

574
00:54:05.425 --> 00:54:06.565
high value customers,

575
00:54:06.945 --> 00:54:11.045
they might not wanna use something that they can at least have source viewable,

576
00:54:12.145 --> 00:54:19.690
and be able to inspect what the coordinator's doing. The counterargument for that is, well, you can take the descriptor and put it into

577
00:54:19.990 --> 00:54:23.290
Bitcoin Core to confirm which is open source. Right.

578
00:54:23.750 --> 00:54:24.250
Right?

579
00:54:26.630 --> 00:54:28.150
An analog here is

580
00:54:29.325 --> 00:54:30.945
so two analogs here,

581
00:54:32.525 --> 00:54:34.385
also ten thirty one portfolio companies,

582
00:54:35.244 --> 00:54:36.065
is Primal

583
00:54:36.685 --> 00:54:37.185
Mhmm.

584
00:54:37.565 --> 00:54:38.865
And Start Nine.

585
00:54:39.405 --> 00:54:39.905
Yes.

586
00:54:42.339 --> 00:54:46.839
I was personally very supportive of both of them having open source stacks. Mhmm.

587
00:54:48.260 --> 00:54:48.760
The,

588
00:54:51.859 --> 00:54:52.920
primal's MIT.

589
00:54:54.180 --> 00:54:56.040
I think star nine might be GPL.

590
00:54:58.295 --> 00:55:08.555
So MIT is you can just do whatever the hell you want with it. You can close, so you can fork it and close source it and, and, and take all the work, build on top of it, not give back, do whatever

591
00:55:08.855 --> 00:55:13.340
GPL you have to give back. It has to still be open source afterwards. But with start nine's

592
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:15.660
case, they are planning to monetize

593
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:19.420
mostly with services built on top.

594
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:21.580
Right. Which is separate from the stack.

595
00:55:23.240 --> 00:55:24.460
They still sell hardware

596
00:55:24.795 --> 00:55:34.655
and you could buy hardware for them that they do have a margin in their, their business, and then they make some money if you buy hardware, but also you can just take an old computer or build your own computer and run start nine.

597
00:55:35.115 --> 00:55:36.335
And then with primal,

598
00:55:38.410 --> 00:55:48.430
also premium service kind of type of situation. And I would say, like, Anchor Watch, you can kind of put it in a premium service bucket even though it's, like, even more so because, like, insurance is, like, such a quagmire

599
00:55:49.370 --> 00:55:51.870
and takes a lot of expertise to, like, make happen.

600
00:55:53.645 --> 00:55:55.425
And there's probably an argument

601
00:55:56.205 --> 00:55:57.724
that it's a more difficult path.

602
00:55:59.645 --> 00:56:03.025
But I also think it's, like, the it's better for humanity,

603
00:56:04.285 --> 00:56:08.224
which in itself is shareholder value. Right? Like, what is the end goal?

604
00:56:09.050 --> 00:56:11.870
This sounds like the goal is of is is flourishing

605
00:56:12.570 --> 00:56:16.190
humanity flourishing. Right? Like, you want your kids to live in a better world.

606
00:56:16.970 --> 00:56:17.470
So

607
00:56:17.770 --> 00:56:22.270
To to quote that's my I I I don't really have a that's my argument, I guess.

608
00:56:24.725 --> 00:56:27.705
I mean, to quote the late great Norma McDonald,

609
00:56:28.165 --> 00:56:30.745
no offense, but that sounds like a bunch of commie gobble.

610
00:56:32.165 --> 00:56:33.705
That that last line about

611
00:56:34.005 --> 00:56:39.599
we're all it this is stakeholder capitalism. That that's like a that's a Klaus Schwab line of, like, the stakeholder

612
00:56:39.980 --> 00:56:41.359
capitalism of humanity.

613
00:56:41.819 --> 00:56:43.680
It's Klaus Schwab. It's for humanity.

614
00:56:44.940 --> 00:56:53.359
Klaus Schwab is not pro is not pro open source. What what for the for the for the stakeholders of this planet? Like, that's where the value gets created. No.

615
00:56:53.994 --> 00:56:54.315
So to

616
00:56:55.035 --> 00:56:57.295
with that I can't believe you just called me the Klaus Schwab.

617
00:56:57.915 --> 00:57:03.135
Well, I love I I love that norm that Norm McDonald line. No offense. That sounds like a bunch of commie gobbledygook.

618
00:57:03.435 --> 00:57:05.775
That was That's a fair it's a fair response.

619
00:57:06.155 --> 00:57:07.580
But the seriously. But

620
00:57:08.200 --> 00:57:11.660
it it doesn't come from a commie perspective. It comes from the opposite.

621
00:57:12.120 --> 00:57:14.140
Let let's talk some business on air. Right?

622
00:57:15.640 --> 00:57:19.100
If there, I would say, is probably a general model

623
00:57:19.720 --> 00:57:20.220
of

624
00:57:20.605 --> 00:57:25.665
where you have certain business logic that you would not open source, which is kind of where you make your money.

625
00:57:26.045 --> 00:57:29.425
Right? You don't open source the part that makes the money.

626
00:57:30.525 --> 00:57:33.505
You open source kind of like the end user tooling.

627
00:57:34.250 --> 00:57:46.430
And so first, like, on an engineering team with competing, like, priorities and features and things that we work on, we'd have to spend some time pulling out some things that we wouldn't wanna open source while giving everyone the general open source tooling.

628
00:57:47.445 --> 00:57:50.345
That's not just insurance stuff. Right? We,

629
00:57:51.605 --> 00:57:54.665
we've put a lot of effort and thought into the security

630
00:57:55.205 --> 00:57:59.625
of how we go about each step of the entire life cycle of a customer.

631
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:12.660
And that may I could open source everything, and they wouldn't I there's no reason for me to open source those things because it's technically functional. I just don't have my guardrails in there that do all of the things that we offer for our security. So now we have to be able to have a

632
00:58:13.475 --> 00:58:13.975
parallel,

633
00:58:14.515 --> 00:58:18.535
like, repo of us doing some things, and then we have to kinda, like, upstream some things.

634
00:58:18.915 --> 00:58:26.835
I think they're like, that it that's a time tax. Right? Because we're not like, first off, if we went and open sourced it, we probably wouldn't open source all of the,

635
00:58:27.940 --> 00:58:35.800
front end code. We'd have to make a new general just like here is the reskinned version. Just like when with Caravan being open source for Unchained,

636
00:58:36.260 --> 00:58:39.480
they don't open source the entire Unchained.com

637
00:58:39.795 --> 00:58:46.055
black dashboard you log into. They have a skinned down version that doesn't have the Unchained branding, and it all technically works.

638
00:58:46.355 --> 00:58:49.575
So that that would be a meaningful engineering lift and task.

639
00:58:51.555 --> 00:58:52.775
The next thing

640
00:58:53.155 --> 00:58:55.494
yeah. And I guess to repeat this, so it's like

641
00:58:55.930 --> 00:59:01.770
removing and stripping out those features, kind of juggling and managing that in there would be the way you would probably do that. And I

642
00:59:02.330 --> 00:59:04.990
for businesses that do open source stuff,

643
00:59:05.530 --> 00:59:07.790
like, I'm I'm thinking about, like,

644
00:59:09.235 --> 00:59:11.895
no. The bank key is not open source. Is it? They're MITCC?

645
00:59:13.235 --> 00:59:14.775
Yeah. The MBK license.

646
00:59:15.475 --> 00:59:20.535
Right. But they don't open source their server code on how their server HSM works. Right?

647
00:59:21.530 --> 00:59:31.470
Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch because it's their key. No. Because it's their key. Right? So if it's their key, they don't have to open source that. So, like, there would have to be, like, a a bifurcation And I also don't know, like,

648
00:59:31.770 --> 00:59:34.190
how do you even verify what's running on the Bitkey?

649
00:59:35.065 --> 00:59:43.805
Well, that's the other thing too because it's hardware. Right? Like, it I I like the Bitkey project. Like, I think it's great. I I I I'm I'm looking to them as someone who who are people who have a model

650
00:59:44.345 --> 00:59:52.010
of open source? No. Because I have, like, I'm thinking of of of parallels. You have Unchained as an open source. You have the Bitkey, which is an open source stack.

651
00:59:53.510 --> 01:00:03.930
Casa, the app is not open source, but you since it's a generic multisig, you can load it into Electrum or Sparrow or whatever, and it all works. Right. I'm trying to think of I'm trying to think of parallels in the ecosystem.

652
01:00:06.025 --> 01:00:25.270
And so that would that it's just a lot of, like, engineering time and effort on our side that then takes away from us building forward on other things. Like I said, I'm not strictly opposed to it, and I probably will probably, by the end of this year, have some version of an open source GUI that allows, like, the basic, like, recovery in the event, like, you wanna be able to after your policy expires, you wanna be able to pull the funds.

653
01:00:26.050 --> 01:00:29.109
We'll probably have some version of that so you don't have to work with just Bitcoin Corp.

654
01:00:29.650 --> 01:00:35.315
But that's something to keep in mind. And probably, we can load that too so you can have your own software that's loading and checking the balances and doing that stuff.

655
01:00:35.775 --> 01:00:37.795
Those are all things that we could probably start with.

656
01:00:38.175 --> 01:00:40.115
And since those are just kind of, like, general

657
01:00:40.415 --> 01:00:41.955
features that aren't really

658
01:00:42.815 --> 01:00:43.795
special or secret,

659
01:00:44.680 --> 01:00:56.300
like, I have no problem opening those. I think an interesting part of this too, though, is as a, like, as a steward of software, we at Inkwatch are heavily relying on the Bitcoin dev kit project. Right?

660
01:00:57.105 --> 01:01:07.445
And a couple things with that, there's ways that we give back. One, we're one of the inaugural corporate sponsors for the Bitcoin DevKit Foundation. There's a nonprofit that does all of the development for the Bitcoin DevKit project.

661
01:01:08.545 --> 01:01:14.410
We're a proud sponsor of them because we wanna be able to give back to people who build really great software that we build on top of.

662
01:01:14.789 --> 01:01:17.529
The second thing too is we also upstream code.

663
01:01:17.910 --> 01:01:20.650
So when we officially first started working with,

664
01:01:21.829 --> 01:01:22.329
BDK,

665
01:01:22.869 --> 01:01:28.015
there was no real database persistent support. So we helped stand up, like, the BDK's,

666
01:01:28.475 --> 01:01:28.975
SQLX,

667
01:01:29.355 --> 01:01:29.855
like,

668
01:01:31.195 --> 01:01:31.695
repo.

669
01:01:32.235 --> 01:02:01.425
And we open sourced that to BDK. BDK is actually now kind of, like, built on top of that for being able to have SQLite post credits, like, database support. So those are ways that we are able to kind of give back and feed into the ecosystem, not to mention just regularly us finding features and requests and, like, finding, like, issues and being able to report those that get democratized to everyone using the software. So those are, like, examples of an in between where our direct code is not available, but our efforts are still being able to give back to the larger open source software movement.

670
01:02:03.325 --> 01:02:04.305
Well, that's awesome.

671
01:02:05.405 --> 01:02:06.385
Proud of you.

672
01:02:07.430 --> 01:02:08.410
Do do you,

673
01:02:10.230 --> 01:02:12.170
by the way, I wanna correct myself.

674
01:02:13.269 --> 01:02:19.335
Start nine has moved to a full MIT license, so you can just take that code and do whatever the hell you want with it. Nice.

675
01:02:20.435 --> 01:02:21.255
Which is commendable.

676
01:02:22.195 --> 01:02:22.515
I,

677
01:02:24.035 --> 01:02:29.895
you know, that's awesome that you support the BDK project. I love those guys. They're fantastic and it's good to be

678
01:02:30.195 --> 01:02:34.609
proper stewards. I just wanna push back once again on the commie commie comment,

679
01:02:37.390 --> 01:02:38.290
like to me,

680
01:02:38.750 --> 01:02:42.530
and I, I think you're aligned to this. Like, to me, the dream is

681
01:02:44.345 --> 01:02:46.765
ethical, incredibly profitable businesses

682
01:02:48.105 --> 01:02:49.325
that also maintain

683
01:02:49.704 --> 01:02:50.765
open source stacks,

684
01:02:52.585 --> 01:02:53.805
that can be effectively

685
01:02:54.105 --> 01:02:56.204
built and iterated on and

686
01:02:57.065 --> 01:02:58.845
kind of obsolete the

687
01:02:59.870 --> 01:03:04.450
Google's don't be evil mantra and replace it with the can't be evil mantra.

688
01:03:05.070 --> 01:03:13.090
And to me, that's the dream. And part of the reason ten thirty one exists is because that's the harder path, and most investors would never even touch that.

689
01:03:14.345 --> 01:03:16.924
Yeah. It's definitely the harder path

690
01:03:17.224 --> 01:03:23.484
for sure. I've actually I'm trying to remember the name of the libraries. There have been a couple open source libraries that have been migrating to

691
01:03:23.944 --> 01:03:25.724
a closed source version.

692
01:03:27.210 --> 01:03:30.030
These are general web ones, nothing related to Bitcoin.

693
01:03:30.570 --> 01:03:31.070
And

694
01:03:31.370 --> 01:03:34.910
I think this is actually an interesting as a brief touch point,

695
01:03:36.010 --> 01:03:36.910
on both sides

696
01:03:37.290 --> 01:03:37.790
for

697
01:03:38.090 --> 01:03:38.590
AI

698
01:03:39.515 --> 01:03:49.695
and vibe coding and all of this stuff is that there's kind of two arguments with this, and this is something I've been thinking about recently. So this is not something I have a firm answer on. The one side would be

699
01:03:49.995 --> 01:03:53.615
that the marginal effort for someone sitting in their basement

700
01:03:54.560 --> 01:03:59.220
that understands prompt engineering and the context when this for LLM models, could they build

701
01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:03.060
a fully end to end open source manuscript by wallet

702
01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:06.420
way easier for sure than two years ago.

703
01:04:06.755 --> 01:04:15.415
Right? Not to mention because BDK has had a lot of progress over the past two years and just having more robust features and being able to kind of, like, clean and optimize things. So now that they've had their one point o release,

704
01:04:16.355 --> 01:04:23.410
the documentation's better. Right? Things that you would feed into to be able to do this stuff, that moves faster. Right? So then the first side of the argument would be,

705
01:04:23.710 --> 01:04:24.529
why would,

706
01:04:25.869 --> 01:04:29.650
if your software is I think in the long run, this is an interesting concept,

707
01:04:30.349 --> 01:04:34.369
in the in the lens of open source is that software commoditizes to zero.

708
01:04:35.305 --> 01:04:43.565
And a wallet company that just does wallet stuff has never made a lot of money, and that was our thesis. Maker watches that were actually more of a financial market with the insurance side of things.

709
01:04:43.865 --> 01:04:45.085
The flip side is

710
01:04:45.545 --> 01:04:47.885
is that if you open source code,

711
01:04:48.339 --> 01:04:54.920
one, there's no guarantee the LLMs are actually gonna be respecting licenses. Like, it's pretty open that, like, all of these large, limited global companies

712
01:04:55.220 --> 01:05:01.240
have actually went and torrented data. And they've actually went and torrented data and took them into that cost to be able to build things. Right?

713
01:05:01.700 --> 01:05:03.640
Most humans will respect licenses.

714
01:05:05.355 --> 01:05:10.175
Yeah. I'm looking at the chat. I I I don't have the nostril chat automatically

715
01:05:10.955 --> 01:05:17.535
in this, stream studios. I have to go back back and forth between this and ZapStream. No. It's it's in the live stream. You can see it.

716
01:05:17.870 --> 01:05:20.830
I don't see it. Oh, I see it on the Zap Out stream. I don't see it in the,

717
01:05:22.190 --> 01:05:28.830
in the, Yeah. It's it's in Restream. You see it. I broadcast it to everybody. It's not under the chat thing. It's in the

718
01:05:30.365 --> 01:05:57.160
Oh, interesting. Oh, yeah. I'd have to find it in the UX. But, Tom Sears says most successful companies goes close source until they make it o until they make it, then they open source. Elon is classic for doing this. And, yeah, I think, like, once you're having No. No. This is you're now you're reading that's The YouTube chat. YouTube chat. That's not the Nostra chat. Yeah. I'm like, alright. I'll go to the Nostra chat in a second, but I think that's an interesting example. Once you have once you have, like, capital scale, it's a lot easier to open source stuff. And my point is, I believe in the long run,

719
01:05:57.635 --> 01:06:04.055
software commoditizes to zero and that LMS are like an accelerant on top of that. And our thesis actually with Anchor Watch is that

720
01:06:04.355 --> 01:06:04.855
marketing,

721
01:06:05.234 --> 01:06:06.615
I think, is entirely commoditizable,

722
01:06:06.994 --> 01:06:09.255
like brand aesthetics in the sense that

723
01:06:09.635 --> 01:06:12.214
a a long enduring brand may not be commoditizable,

724
01:06:12.710 --> 01:06:20.329
but the ability to build brand share in the ecosystem is actually quite accelerated with, I think, more and more people using

725
01:06:20.950 --> 01:06:23.930
AI aggregated and managed content anyway. Long form,

726
01:06:24.470 --> 01:06:26.329
form, like, content like these podcasts

727
01:06:26.805 --> 01:06:34.105
are something that today are harder to commoditize, but I think tech in the long run commoditize all that. The one thing you cannot open source is capital.

728
01:06:34.724 --> 01:06:48.049
You can't, like and this is actually the beautiful one of the beautiful innovations of Bitcoin is that it enabled you to have a fully open source software where you sold private property rights. Right? Your UTXO set, your keys are your keys, and you it's fully open. You can't open source capital, and insurance

729
01:06:48.349 --> 01:06:54.365
is a capital market at the end of the day. So being able to build the system that can make the capital market work is something

730
01:06:54.825 --> 01:07:03.485
that cannot be commoditized into what you said earlier. Not anyone's gonna walk off the street and get a Lloyd's of London relationship. You can't you can't vibe code a Lloyd's cover holder.

731
01:07:03.865 --> 01:07:22.289
You can't. You can actually you cannot vibe code a Lloyd's cover holder at all. You're able to with less effort no. I'm gonna say with less effort, you could find a broker to place, like, a marketing headline, voids of London relationship. Like, that's the easy path. The easy path is Yeah. But then they they wouldn't be able to compete on terms.

732
01:07:22.715 --> 01:07:27.775
No. They wouldn't. No. No. Explicitly not. Right? You're you're gonna be sacrificing items more expensive. Middleman.

733
01:07:28.075 --> 01:07:30.655
Yeah. There's an extra middleman, extra price,

734
01:07:31.435 --> 01:07:35.615
and, like, less coverage. Like, you're you're absolutely gonna be giving up somewhere if someone says,

735
01:07:36.770 --> 01:07:47.430
that you have this relationship because we have a insurance policy. Like, read those t's and c's and details. Are you individually named on that policy? So this is actually I'm I'm expanding out all these thoughts to say

736
01:07:47.970 --> 01:07:49.750
that's a case to open source a software.

737
01:07:50.075 --> 01:07:51.855
It is it is a case to make that.

738
01:07:52.635 --> 01:07:59.375
It's just something that I before I make that decision, I want to be really well thought out and deliberate and having the ability to,

739
01:08:00.395 --> 01:08:08.590
make sure that I'm not impairing the business. Because as of today, that technology stack is part of, like, our assets as a company. And when it's open sourced,

740
01:08:09.050 --> 01:08:13.550
we'll have our secret sauce things that are not in the open source code that do extra things,

741
01:08:14.570 --> 01:08:19.390
that will be part of our IP. And be since we built it, we'll be in the best position to leverage and use it.

742
01:08:20.485 --> 01:08:32.665
But those are things just to keep in mind. Right? So these are, like if if we're talking business on air, you know, it's funny we horseshoe this because we went macro business at the start technical, and now we're macroing we're horseshoeing back to to to business and suit stuff.

743
01:08:33.860 --> 01:08:38.920
These are the same thing for sure. I don't think deciding whether or not you should open source

744
01:08:39.619 --> 01:08:46.280
the stack is really a suit conversation. I think most suits would just say don't do it. Well, as as a suit coiner myself,

745
01:08:46.845 --> 01:08:54.785
I'm repping the this is the PodConf brand suit coiner collection. Yeah. We'll get to PodConf and Bugle in a second. Okay.

746
01:08:56.045 --> 01:08:58.545
You go. Do you wanna what what are we gonna say?

747
01:08:59.180 --> 01:09:00.400
I was just gonna say,

748
01:09:01.740 --> 01:09:09.920
ultimately, when I think about this stuff, these are the different pieces I think about. Marketing will is becoming more and more commoditized. Everyone's starting a podcast. Everyone's competing for attention.

749
01:09:10.860 --> 01:09:12.960
Technology is gonna commoditize with AI,

750
01:09:13.415 --> 01:09:31.050
more and more, like, at an accelerated rate more so than it did before. So capital markets are actually where the interesting is where you can actually capture value because you can't open source like, you can't open source capital in the same way. So these are the things I think about in building a a long term enduring business and the levers I can pull for being able to create that shareholder value.

751
01:09:31.350 --> 01:09:36.250
So that's a case for you know, I it's something I I go back and forth and debate all the time.

752
01:09:37.590 --> 01:09:39.130
I love it. Freaks,

753
01:09:39.830 --> 01:09:43.845
if you have any questions for Rob, please put them in the live chat.

754
01:09:44.785 --> 01:09:46.405
We will we will get to them.

755
01:09:46.785 --> 01:09:49.205
But I will continue being the host for now.

756
01:09:53.345 --> 01:09:54.645
Thank you, Tom, for

757
01:09:56.070 --> 01:09:56.570
joining

758
01:09:56.950 --> 01:09:58.250
us in the YouTube chat.

759
01:09:59.030 --> 01:09:59.530
I,

760
01:10:03.350 --> 01:10:03.850
privacy.

761
01:10:04.550 --> 01:10:05.690
Yeah. New customer

762
01:10:06.390 --> 01:10:07.610
considering, considering

763
01:10:07.990 --> 01:10:08.890
using AnchorWatch.

764
01:10:09.425 --> 01:10:26.290
What are the privacy considerations they should be thinking about? So at the top of the Noster chat, you can see I linked a mempool transaction. I'm not gonna ask you to change your production to look at it right now, but what you can say say is that going to do that. No. I'm not asking you to. But for those of the freaks in the chat, they can go click on that link and look at it.

765
01:10:28.270 --> 01:10:31.010
Because the on chain transaction is unique,

766
01:10:31.470 --> 01:10:33.490
you're going to have an identifiable fingerprint.

767
01:10:34.065 --> 01:10:36.645
I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it for you. Let's see if this works.

768
01:10:37.505 --> 01:10:45.925
All I was gonna say yeah. So perfect. So this is one of our earliest main this is one of our earliest main net transactions. You can see it was eleven months ago. If you scroll down a little bit,

769
01:10:47.070 --> 01:10:50.610
on the graph here, Odell, you can actually click and see the details of the transaction.

770
01:10:51.070 --> 01:10:52.770
So if you scroll down a little bit

771
01:10:53.710 --> 01:11:00.210
and you click details, now this is if you keep scrolling down, that's the witness where you're actually providing your signatures in the script preimage.

772
01:11:00.670 --> 01:11:09.185
If you scroll down a little bit more, this is the actual on chain smart contract that executes for trying to vault. As you can see immediately, that's a very unique fingerprint.

773
01:11:09.885 --> 01:11:16.145
Ways we can mitigate this is leverage going over the Taproot, which is one of the work streams that we're we're working on right now for being able to support native Taproot.

774
01:11:17.989 --> 01:11:18.390
Additionally,

775
01:11:18.790 --> 01:11:23.610
the time lock values, like like, all of these things are going to be unique fingerprints.

776
01:11:24.550 --> 01:11:32.175
And so I've been thinking about different ways of managing this. The first one and the biggest one would be using music for the key path. So you have a designated happy path.

777
01:11:32.815 --> 01:11:35.235
Let's say you have two like, you have,

778
01:11:35.855 --> 01:11:42.675
the ability where everyone comes together and agrees these are the primary keys. And if you have the primary keys, it looks like a single sick on chain. Right? That would be leveraging,

779
01:11:43.054 --> 01:11:45.474
music and snore with the tampered upgrade.

780
01:11:47.050 --> 01:11:49.710
As of the state of the product today, the on chain privacy

781
01:11:50.330 --> 01:11:57.070
is not there because to be able to encode these rules, you have to be able to have, the unique smart contract rule. But forget about

782
01:11:57.449 --> 01:12:13.684
that, like, in my if I'm an AcreWatch customer, just like Lloyd's of London know they know exactly how much Bitcoin I own? Yes. And they know do they know addresses? They they know they know exactly the Bitcoin that's in your Triangle vault. Right? Because we're insuring the Bitcoin And they know the address specifically.

783
01:12:14.065 --> 01:12:16.324
Yeah. Because they have the output they have the output descriptor.

784
01:12:17.660 --> 01:12:22.640
And you guys obviously have that as well. We have to to be able to serve as a wallet coordinator. Yeah. Absolutely.

785
01:12:23.420 --> 01:12:28.960
To be able to, like, use your policy Everything else is kinda moot. Right? Like, that's the that's the big privacy.

786
01:12:29.285 --> 01:12:37.285
Yeah. Well, there is a bifurcation, though. There is an on chain privacy and an off chain privacy. I think both of those, you know, play a role in it. I know Dan Gould,

787
01:12:38.085 --> 01:12:39.705
turned on, with Liana,

788
01:12:40.325 --> 01:12:43.865
the the page one dev kit into Liana, which is a great example of,

789
01:12:44.540 --> 01:12:50.480
thinking about different use cases because with Liana, you have to move coins every once in a while anyway to be able to refresh.

790
01:12:50.940 --> 01:12:58.480
So in Liana, well, like, if I have my UTXO is about to expire on a layer, I could use that in a pay join, and I can refresh my UTXO

791
01:12:59.265 --> 01:13:18.890
as part of just a normal spend, which would be Well, that's what they're using it for. Yeah. No. And it's it's a great way to be able to kind of, like, two for one, like, I'm not just doing a self send. Like, you can But that's not really relevant for you because you're using absolute time locks, not That's correct. No. That that is correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just kind of giving Dan Gould a shout out and the Lianna guys a shout out.

792
01:13:19.610 --> 01:13:28.670
Yeah. So since we're your counterparty, we have to know what Bitcoin's there because we're, one, we're managing all of the software to serve the transactions to you. I was talking to

793
01:13:29.285 --> 01:13:31.225
a prominent Bitcoiner. I was at UpNext

794
01:13:31.605 --> 01:13:37.625
at the Strategy Headquarters last weekend, and I was talking to a prominent Bitcoiner who won't be named. I'll let you know after the show,

795
01:13:38.485 --> 01:13:40.905
about how you could natively on chain

796
01:13:41.365 --> 01:13:42.425
run a

797
01:13:43.125 --> 01:13:43.625
private

798
01:13:43.925 --> 01:13:53.969
cosigning service. And I started going down to the mechanics, and I think there's probably a cypherpunk way where they're you're able to blind x pubs, and you're able to just natively on chain kind of, like,

799
01:13:54.270 --> 01:13:55.969
manage this cosigning operation,

800
01:13:56.670 --> 01:13:59.489
for, like, emergency contingency spends would be really interesting.

801
01:14:00.335 --> 01:14:03.715
Yeah. You only know the balance when you if you have to sign.

802
01:14:04.015 --> 01:14:11.315
You'd only yeah. You'd only know actually for that address. You'd only know the one that But that's not relevant for your situation because you have to do insurance.

803
01:14:11.695 --> 01:14:13.395
No. Yeah. And for our side Caravan

804
01:14:14.094 --> 01:14:15.235
supports that now.

805
01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:16.700
Caravan supports

806
01:14:17.080 --> 01:14:17.580
what?

807
01:14:19.240 --> 01:14:20.300
Blinded ex pups.

808
01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:26.220
Sick. I think I think Michael Flaxman's blinded ex pup protocol is like something that's massively That's basically what they implemented.

809
01:14:26.600 --> 01:14:27.500
No. That's amazing.

810
01:14:28.105 --> 01:14:34.685
But you can use it for, like, main level on chain, but you can use it if you do caravan. So, like, I could do an uncle Jim scenario

811
01:14:35.145 --> 01:14:38.525
Mhmm. Where I hold one key in my nephew's multisig,

812
01:14:38.985 --> 01:14:45.460
but I have no idea how much Bitcoin he has unless he fucks up and needs me to sign. And then at that point, I wouldn't know. Exactly.

813
01:14:45.840 --> 01:15:05.955
Yeah. And without getting to the technical mechanics of it, it's a really handy way that you can hold a key for someone, but they don't know anything until you actually need them. Yeah. Because I don't wanna know I don't wanna know how much Bitcoin my nephew has, let alone be able to spend it. Like, I definitely don't wanna be able to spend it. Right. But I would also rather not be compelled to say how much he has. Yeah.

814
01:15:06.495 --> 01:15:18.060
Another interesting process that on me. I don't want that liability. No. A %. You, like, you can it's, you can't do evil because you don't know. Right? You're just totally, like, information, like, you're there's no way evil versus

815
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:28.085
Don't do evil. Don't do evil. Because if you say you're not gonna do evil, you use most people usually do evil. Eventually. Well, you saw that, Firefox changed their licensing, like, their terms of service where they're like,

816
01:15:28.385 --> 01:15:36.405
we will never sell your data, and that's a promise. And then, like, the git commit removes the and that's a promise. I think that was I think that was just a lawyer thing.

817
01:15:36.800 --> 01:15:39.140
I think a lawyer was like, you can't say that.

818
01:15:39.760 --> 01:15:40.260
Understood.

819
01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:54.284
Maybe yeah. That that's totally possible. Really cool spot on. It is with these businesses. It's like so much lawyer speak. Especially, you get lawyers in there. They're like, holy shit. Like, how are you promising this? You can't you can't speak in absolutes. Do you know who's a great lawyer, though?

820
01:15:55.224 --> 01:15:56.684
Who? Zach Shapiro

821
01:15:57.065 --> 01:16:02.605
at Zach Shapiro is a fantastic lawyer. And help me run the I've had him on this question. I know you have.

822
01:16:03.224 --> 01:16:11.179
Yeah. I know you have. Yeah. The peer to peer rights foundation. So he's helping run all that and kind of doing advisory services for the samurai case as well.

823
01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:14.780
See there are a couple of good lawyers out there.

824
01:16:15.159 --> 01:16:16.619
Okay. So let's talk.

825
01:16:17.800 --> 01:16:21.340
I so did you see this comment from a random end pub,

826
01:16:22.535 --> 01:16:49.210
who zapped 21,000 sats? Thank you for supporting the show. The key challenge with MIT plus CC, GPL, etcetera, is you will always have those who do not respect the restrictions and just take it, give nothing back, and try and compete against you. See the recent controversy around BIDX, Lucky Miner. If you doubt this, big companies steal MIT, CC, and GPL all the time. Open source is great. Not trying to knock it, but let's just be clear about the trade offs. Yeah. I mean, I a % agree with that.

827
01:16:49.535 --> 01:17:03.475
I didn't I saw some posts about this. So someone's taken the MITCC code and it's just being like, thanks for this. I'm gonna go take it now. And then Yeah. I mean, I don't something you could do about it. At the end of the at the end of the day, like, if you wanna enforce the shit, you gotta go to court.

828
01:17:03.860 --> 01:17:07.559
Yep. And you have to bring government action, and it's a pain in the ass. It's expensive.

829
01:17:08.900 --> 01:17:15.639
They can always rewrite keys aspects of it and, like, kind of reverse engineer it. It's not really reverse engineering, but

830
01:17:16.275 --> 01:17:24.375
and claim that, like, oh, we did we're not using the same code. You know, it's not derivative code. We've seen that a million times. But that's why it's cool to me

831
01:17:25.074 --> 01:17:27.335
when you have defensible business models

832
01:17:27.965 --> 01:17:28.465
Yep.

833
01:17:28.960 --> 01:17:34.660
That are separate of that. You I mean, I think you have to pretty much assume that someone's going to steal the code.

834
01:17:35.040 --> 01:17:38.740
Like, you if don't open source it if you don't think that's the case.

835
01:17:39.120 --> 01:17:42.180
You I just think you can run a competitive sustainable business

836
01:17:42.905 --> 01:17:44.685
even in that situation. Software.

837
01:17:45.065 --> 01:17:51.725
It's an interesting point too, especially tying into LMS. You'd be like, here's this code. Can you do this but make it look very, very, very different?

838
01:17:52.185 --> 01:17:55.885
Yeah. You just yeah. Exactly. You literally vibe code your way around the MITCC.

839
01:17:56.590 --> 01:17:58.770
Right. It's super. It's probably super easy.

840
01:17:59.230 --> 01:17:59.730
Yeah.

841
01:18:00.510 --> 01:18:04.050
I mean, even easier now than it ever was before because of the LLMs.

842
01:18:04.430 --> 01:18:11.250
Yeah. That was my point. The trend is gonna accelerate. So, yeah, no, I think that's, I think it's a fair point. And then when, like in like two, three years,

843
01:18:11.855 --> 01:18:12.594
you just,

844
01:18:12.975 --> 01:18:13.475
like,

845
01:18:14.975 --> 01:18:16.675
just, like, load the executable

846
01:18:17.375 --> 01:18:24.355
executable into the fucking l 11 and be, like, okay. Write code that does exactly what this does. Right. But make it look different.

847
01:18:25.140 --> 01:18:39.159
Yeah. And also make it look different. But I'm saying even if it's closed source. Right? Just like, okay. Vibe code vibe code a competitor to this piece of software. Verse cut reverse compile the binary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I I can totally see that.

848
01:18:40.145 --> 01:18:46.485
Before I forget, also shout out to is doing the SIG Bash project, which is fun, where it's a cosigning service.

849
01:18:46.865 --> 01:18:56.720
Dispatch. He's just not ready yet. Hell, yeah. Alright. But I I won't say anything else. I'll let him do it. I've been trying to get him on for, like, three months now. Next week is gonna be Evan Kaludis,

850
01:18:58.300 --> 01:18:59.040
of Zeus.

851
01:18:59.420 --> 01:18:59.980
I may be,

852
01:19:00.780 --> 01:19:09.565
I have to fig it's not from maybe I'll just announce it here before anyone else knows. I'm thinking about come swinging by Bitcoin John and, cohosting a bit devs with them.

853
01:19:10.265 --> 01:19:11.705
Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

854
01:19:13.225 --> 01:19:14.285
It's gonna be

855
01:19:16.825 --> 01:19:20.969
twenty one hundred UTC on Tuesday, the twenty second. Very nice.

856
01:19:21.670 --> 01:19:26.810
I'm gonna have Evan, and then I'll figure out what the next I don't know what the next episode after that is, but, hopefully,

857
01:19:27.909 --> 01:19:31.929
Arbed Out comes on soon, to talk about the SIGBASH thing. I'm pretty

858
01:19:33.265 --> 01:19:41.345
pretty excited about that. Is great. No. I I was chatting with him, and I did, like, an initial, like, test one with him, like like, doing some test ones. It's,

859
01:19:41.825 --> 01:19:46.085
it's this idea of a cosigner. I think cosigning is gonna be one of these evolved models

860
01:19:47.290 --> 01:19:48.350
of scaling Bitcoin

861
01:19:48.650 --> 01:19:49.710
as well as,

862
01:19:50.730 --> 01:19:56.110
securing your Bitcoin. So we act as a cosigner at AnchorWatch with all of the insurance Right. And being able to, like, manage things.

863
01:19:57.370 --> 01:20:10.265
You also have, like, an ARC. The way ARC scales, basically, is a cosigner. You have this ARC server, right, with your virtual UTXOs. I got to see Steven Roost do a really great presentation at Up Next talking about ARC. And, No. Let's talk about Up Next. We continue.

864
01:20:10.885 --> 01:20:12.345
Yeah. And then Alex b,

865
01:20:12.885 --> 01:20:24.420
from the Arc Labs team was also there, and he had a lot of Alex. Alex is good people. Alex is great. He had a main net demo of Arc, so I got to go check out, main net Arc. He had a whole When I was sitting at MIT, he was,

866
01:20:26.574 --> 01:20:32.755
well, someone was speaking. I won't say who was speaking, and he was sitting next to me playing around with Mainnet ARC on his phone.

867
01:20:33.215 --> 01:20:38.114
It's here. And and and I it's funny. I have no I I tweeted it out while it happened.

868
01:20:38.415 --> 01:20:41.780
I tweeted out you can just cosign things. I was sitting at dinner with,

869
01:20:42.500 --> 01:20:43.000
Alex,

870
01:20:43.380 --> 01:20:44.360
myself, and,

871
01:20:44.900 --> 01:20:49.480
and we were having a good laugh. And, basically, the fact that, cosigning allows you to

872
01:20:50.340 --> 01:20:55.665
change, like, custody models. Like, that's how with Angar as a cosigner, how that works. And then for scaling too,

873
01:20:55.965 --> 01:21:06.545
this idea of cosigning kind of, like, allows you to have a foot in both worlds of having your own keys and then also being able to do a bunch of off chain operations. It's collaborative custody. Collaborative custody is awesome.

874
01:21:06.925 --> 01:21:07.425
Yeah.

875
01:21:08.445 --> 01:21:08.945
The

876
01:21:18.540 --> 01:21:24.480
I'm getting I'm getting sidetracked because I'm reading the comments. I shouldn't be reading the comments. I wanna talk about up next.

877
01:21:26.435 --> 01:21:28.535
So let's talk about up next. How is up next?

878
01:21:29.235 --> 01:21:30.595
Up next was a lot of guys,

879
01:21:30.995 --> 01:21:33.895
it was at Strategies headquarters. Are you guys gonna do

880
01:21:34.275 --> 01:21:34.935
a hostile

881
01:21:35.795 --> 01:21:48.590
fork on on Bitcoin with the CIA backed? Jamis and I started breaking into all the offices trying to find the keys. We were we were just going door to door with a crowbar, just trying to find where all the sales keys were. Joke joke's on you. They don't hold their keys.

882
01:21:49.290 --> 01:21:51.070
That's right. That's right.

883
01:21:53.130 --> 01:21:54.990
So up next was really interesting.

884
01:21:55.530 --> 01:22:00.785
This is kind of came from the inspiration of the scaling Bitcoin conferences we had from 2015 to 2019,

885
01:22:01.005 --> 01:22:01.745
which were

886
01:22:02.125 --> 01:22:16.659
around the conversations where we got Segwit and Taproot. Right? The idea was that typically for most, conferences they're focused on within what Bitcoin could do today. And the scaling Bitcoin conferences that ran for those years were really focused on, like, what would it look like to make updates to Bitcoin? Now,

887
01:22:17.760 --> 01:22:21.699
the main buckets of things that were talked about, I would put,

888
01:22:22.495 --> 01:22:27.635
there were two up, I'll build my way up. But there were two interesting conversations. James

889
01:22:27.935 --> 01:22:46.260
Jameson Lop did, talk about GoldieBlox, which is the idea of a dynamic block size sometime in the future. He's just talking hypothetically, it's a research thing. And James O'Byrne did an interesting talk too just talking about, like, the cost of validating blocks, the things that we optimize for in Moore's Law, and just talking about that in a longer arc.

890
01:22:46.580 --> 01:22:49.320
The next thing, like, most Tekken must talk about probably

891
01:22:49.699 --> 01:22:51.320
was in the bucket of OPCAT,

892
01:22:52.575 --> 01:22:56.995
with being able to talk about on as a bucket of covenant, but enabling much more advanced things.

893
01:22:57.935 --> 01:23:00.435
And then there was from Stack and CTV.

894
01:23:01.295 --> 01:23:02.895
And a lot of the talks

895
01:23:03.710 --> 01:23:04.850
it was very interesting,

896
01:23:05.550 --> 01:23:16.130
because as with most conferences, the talks are, like, not the most interesting thing. It's being able to have conversations with people in person. So I got to meet a really great crew at TPO. Oh, John Atack did a really great talk on the BIP process

897
01:23:16.510 --> 01:23:18.290
and just talking about how BIPs work.

898
01:23:19.355 --> 01:23:29.614
And so through all these different, like, conversations, I I did a panel with the head of Coinbase custody and the head of research at Bitwise with p Rizzo moderating. Talk about suits.

899
01:23:30.074 --> 01:23:34.574
Yeah. And then I also did a second panel, which was Was the research guy Matthew Siegel?

900
01:23:35.409 --> 01:23:40.869
I believe so. No. Ryan Rasmussen. Ryan. Ryan Okay. R. Yeah. Ryan r.

901
01:23:41.889 --> 01:23:48.630
And so So you were on the suit panel? I was on the suit panel, and then we also did another panel about hardware wallets with,

902
01:23:49.805 --> 01:23:51.505
Jonathan from the Bitkey team,

903
01:23:52.045 --> 01:23:52.545
Rindell,

904
01:23:53.245 --> 01:23:59.985
NVK, and myself, which was basically great. Yeah. It was basically like a Bitcoin dot review, like, mini episode for twenty minutes.

905
01:24:00.765 --> 01:24:02.625
So I was on those two panels, but,

906
01:24:03.005 --> 01:24:08.920
it was interesting. There was a ARC panel that Steven Roost did talking about ARC today and then what it looks like to be able to do UCTV

907
01:24:09.220 --> 01:24:09.700
for,

908
01:24:10.260 --> 01:24:12.200
being able to, trustlessly, like, refresh.

909
01:24:13.300 --> 01:24:16.520
And for, like, the question on, like, are we hostile forking Bitcoin?

910
01:24:17.505 --> 01:24:22.645
No. No. No one talked activation client. Oh, two really cool interesting talks before I talk about it. No one talked about the hard part?

911
01:24:23.105 --> 01:24:26.065
No. No. We we we did at the end. So the last panel was,

912
01:24:27.665 --> 01:24:28.165
Jay,

913
01:24:29.025 --> 01:24:29.845
from Foundry,

914
01:24:30.545 --> 01:24:31.445
Ryan Gentry.

915
01:24:32.060 --> 01:24:41.840
That's great. Yeah. It was a great crew and talk and we talked about the the activation stuff a little bit. Damn. You had, like there was a legit crew that were there. It was a fucking sick conference.

916
01:24:42.460 --> 01:24:46.640
Portland Huddle Did you guys hide to to check-in to check-in to strategy's

917
01:24:47.475 --> 01:24:50.935
offices, did you guys all, like, give blood samples? Like, how did that work?

918
01:24:51.315 --> 01:24:53.554
Yeah. So the first thing you had to do is you had to give up,

919
01:24:54.034 --> 01:24:55.655
your one of your private keys.

920
01:24:56.435 --> 01:25:05.809
You had you had to be able to kind of, like, on the way in, and then they give you they give you micro strategy shares. You actually just dump in your seed phrase, and they just have, like, a little ATM No MSTY only.

921
01:25:06.110 --> 01:25:13.489
Oh, yeah. So it's MSTY ATM. You you take a picture of your seed phrase, and then they give you MSTY shares into your Fidelity account. Yeah. It was really good.

922
01:25:14.945 --> 01:25:24.965
Two quick talks. Anton, and Anton did a really good talk about the great consensus cleanup and talking about like, the the great consensus cleanup is a project of basically taking all of the

923
01:25:25.265 --> 01:25:37.280
known consensus bugs in Bitcoin. It doesn't add functionality really, but, like, what would it look like to merge those? And then Portland Hoddle right after did a talk showing basically how to poison blocks to make block validation happen

924
01:25:37.740 --> 01:25:50.554
on a Raspberry Pi, like, thirty six hours for a single block. And he he called it the men the men pull anarchist cookbook. So he did it on rec test on his local machine, and he hid how to exactly do it. But he was talking about, this is why we wanna change consensus because

925
01:25:50.855 --> 01:25:56.800
this is a pretty bad problem. And he was able to looking at, like, opens like, discussions, he was able to,

926
01:25:57.420 --> 01:26:01.679
reconstruct and do these attacks. So that that was all recorded. It's all live now on YouTube.

927
01:26:02.539 --> 01:26:06.000
Bitcoin Magazine streamed it too, so you can go back and look at those streams. But for

928
01:26:06.539 --> 01:26:08.480
there were interesting conversations around,

929
01:26:09.585 --> 01:26:11.685
I think talking to a lot and there were other,

930
01:26:13.105 --> 01:26:14.465
devs that were there.

931
01:26:14.785 --> 01:26:27.880
He spoke on camera, so I feel less like I'm not docs like him or anything. Shores was there. He had some really good critiques about, like, looking for more just live demos leveraging some of this stuff. And I think that's probably the biggest call to action or different people that are building

932
01:26:28.340 --> 01:26:33.880
in bit like, that one of, like, prototype these things to, like, open source and show builds on how this all functions and works.

933
01:26:34.425 --> 01:26:38.204
So I think that's kind of, like, the next stage of talking about this. There was an interesting

934
01:26:38.985 --> 01:26:40.445
discussion among some

935
01:26:40.985 --> 01:26:41.485
around,

936
01:26:43.264 --> 01:26:43.764
the,

937
01:26:45.545 --> 01:26:49.890
changing of CTV. So it's only in Taproot and not on legacy script,

938
01:26:50.290 --> 01:26:58.230
which I think sounds like a great optimization for reducing the amount of line changes of code and reducing the review and reducing kind of, like, the unknown. So that's something that was kind of discussed.

939
01:26:58.690 --> 01:27:11.295
InstaGibbs did a really good talk talking about the things we should be considering and thinking about when we're changing Bitcoin for future upgrades and thinking about them in, like, the weight units and thinking, like, the scale units. So that was a really good talk I'd encourage everyone to listen to as well.

940
01:27:11.995 --> 01:27:15.695
And so I think the immediate call to action is getting more people building prototypes

941
01:27:16.315 --> 01:27:17.295
for all this stuff.

942
01:27:17.755 --> 01:27:20.415
But I think there was I would say,

943
01:27:21.870 --> 01:27:23.650
a consensus that enabling

944
01:27:24.510 --> 01:27:32.770
these functionalities would be helpful for many different stakeholders across Bitcoin. Even the bit VM people now are fine with CTV. Previously, they weren't.

945
01:27:33.455 --> 01:27:46.195
There's an optimization to BitVM if we were to get CTV and checks it from stack. So as, like, a coalition of building rough consensus, there's more and more stakeholders come to the table that are interested in this. Me, personally, if we had CTV, I'd be able to do CTV vaults,

946
01:27:47.030 --> 01:27:49.690
being able to do better vaulting technology on layer one,

947
01:27:50.310 --> 01:27:52.489
that would be able to streamline operations and

948
01:27:52.790 --> 01:27:54.970
make it safer to use Bitcoin and cold storage.

949
01:27:55.670 --> 01:27:58.390
So these are all things that are in the conversation. And for activations

950
01:27:59.345 --> 01:28:01.445
Yeah. Was was Sailor there?

951
01:28:01.825 --> 01:28:02.325
No.

952
01:28:03.905 --> 01:28:04.885
Sailor on the line.

953
01:28:05.425 --> 01:28:06.805
Well, I've I've met him previously,

954
01:28:08.145 --> 01:28:12.325
but I didn't get to meet him at at his at his office. Do you think he supports CTV?

955
01:28:14.489 --> 01:28:17.469
I think he would probably defer to

956
01:28:17.770 --> 01:28:18.429
the ecosystem,

957
01:28:19.289 --> 01:28:20.270
and he himself

958
01:28:20.650 --> 01:28:21.150
doesn't

959
01:28:21.849 --> 01:28:32.525
he would he himself would not pretend to under like, understand the nuances of all this stuff. Not I barely am scratching the surface on the nuance on a lot of this stuff. So I don't think he puts himself in that category.

960
01:28:33.705 --> 01:28:35.324
Okay. Well, we'll see.

961
01:28:35.625 --> 01:28:44.920
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Pseudo Carlos. Rob is starting to understand Marty's pain. Stop reading the comments. Yeah. No. I feel it. I feel like Carlos. Literally read the comment to read that. So you're a hypocrite.

962
01:28:45.620 --> 01:28:46.520
You're a hypocrite.

963
01:28:47.220 --> 01:28:48.520
No one likes a hypocrite.

964
01:28:49.460 --> 01:28:55.080
Let's I just need to I need to pull back. I realized what I was supposed to ask, not about up next.

965
01:28:57.515 --> 01:28:59.935
Really great. Not a professional podcaster.

966
01:29:00.395 --> 01:29:00.895
Yeah.

967
01:29:02.155 --> 01:29:03.695
You were mentioning cosigning.

968
01:29:04.315 --> 01:29:06.495
Yeah. What are your thoughts on

969
01:29:07.034 --> 01:29:08.015
multi institutional,

970
01:29:11.000 --> 01:29:11.500
multisig,

971
01:29:12.360 --> 01:29:14.620
like, collaborative custody between multiple institutions?

972
01:29:15.080 --> 01:29:20.860
Customer does not hold a key Yeah. Because people are scared of keys, especially the suits. Yeah.

973
01:29:21.640 --> 01:29:23.420
Is that something in Anchor Watches

974
01:29:25.215 --> 01:29:28.515
roadmap? Is that something you guys are thinking about? How do you think about it?

975
01:29:29.055 --> 01:29:34.035
Yeah. The the answer is yeah. Of course. I think, like, multi institutional custody, like, pioneered

976
01:29:34.655 --> 01:29:35.475
by Unchained

977
01:29:35.935 --> 01:29:37.235
in the loan model.

978
01:29:37.690 --> 01:29:42.030
Like, they were the first ones to think about this idea of having multiple institutions to be able to

979
01:29:42.410 --> 01:29:43.230
manage keys.

980
01:29:43.770 --> 01:30:07.950
But they still don't have keyless. Right? What I mean, keyless is a misnomer, but they don't have a product where the customer doesn't hold the key. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So those are, like, two different things. So if I think multi institution, I think multiple institutions holding keys that started with No. But I'm talking about key like, the customer doesn't hold the key. Yeah. There's, like, a bunch of high net worths and, like, suits and companies that just don't wanna hold keys.

981
01:30:08.430 --> 01:30:12.370
They still want insurance. They still don't wanna get rugged. They don't wanna rehypothecation.

982
01:30:13.310 --> 01:30:14.290
We have

983
01:30:15.070 --> 01:30:17.010
largely built out the

984
01:30:17.470 --> 01:30:39.510
architecture to be able to execute that already. Right? So it's for us on a process side of figuring out the right way to do it that offers the most value to customers and being able to continue our assurances of being able to offer that one to one insurance per cut like, per for for each customer having a policy in their own name and properly structuring it. Right? I think it's a compelling way to distribute risk for sure.

985
01:30:39.969 --> 01:30:41.670
It is a way of,

986
01:30:43.010 --> 01:30:45.670
abstracting away a lot of the

987
01:30:46.210 --> 01:30:49.829
foot guns with holding your own private key material.

988
01:30:51.905 --> 01:30:58.244
I would also say that what we've built is also a way of being able to mitigate those risks and wrapping it with your own insurance contract.

989
01:30:59.184 --> 01:31:04.085
But, yeah, I think it's a it's a very compelling way to be able to offer the product and something that,

990
01:31:05.110 --> 01:31:06.410
ever since I started building,

991
01:31:07.510 --> 01:31:12.170
Trident Vault over two years ago, it was definitely in the vision of something I wanted to do.

992
01:31:12.950 --> 01:31:15.130
When you're owning your own technology infrastructure,

993
01:31:15.990 --> 01:31:17.930
you have to think about going about things deliberately

994
01:31:18.470 --> 01:31:20.570
and being able to offer

995
01:31:21.244 --> 01:31:28.465
the right way to offer in a way that protects customers. And so that's kind of where the thought is going into is, like, as someone who's built out the architecture,

996
01:31:29.244 --> 01:31:31.105
understanding the right way to execute it.

997
01:31:33.485 --> 01:31:33.885
I mean

998
01:31:35.710 --> 01:31:37.010
no. Yeah. That makes sense.

999
01:31:37.869 --> 01:31:41.170
There's like two different products, right? Cause there's one that is

1000
01:31:43.230 --> 01:31:47.809
individual focused. And then one that is like business focused. There's like a bunch of,

1001
01:31:48.195 --> 01:31:51.975
I mean, like a micro strategy, micro strategy doesn't even hold their own keys. Yep.

1002
01:31:53.795 --> 01:31:56.055
There's gotta be a better way of handling that

1003
01:31:56.515 --> 01:31:58.055
than what they're currently doing.

1004
01:31:58.995 --> 01:32:05.060
Okay. Go on. No. For sure. Say somebody, or are you just reading the live chat? No. I wasn't reading the live chat. I was,

1005
01:32:05.540 --> 01:32:06.679
thinking about this.

1006
01:32:07.460 --> 01:32:13.800
It's an interesting way. I think there's also the way that, like, Anchorage manages this. I mean, from what I've heard publicly

1007
01:32:14.345 --> 01:32:18.685
in that they have the end users manage stuff on their phone,

1008
01:32:20.185 --> 01:32:28.525
and then that acts as kind of like a cosigning to kind of like it the key isn't there on the phone, but it is a way to basically be able to authorize a spend.

1009
01:32:28.860 --> 01:32:31.500
I think that's a really compelling way of being able to,

1010
01:32:31.820 --> 01:32:33.580
offer an in between. So it's not just,

1011
01:32:34.220 --> 01:32:40.240
I'm holding the key for you. You have to go approve something for me. So those these are things I think about. Right? Like, in the business execution architecture,

1012
01:32:41.475 --> 01:32:52.615
it it's, when you're building it out and you're putting the thought and the due diligence and how to properly construct all of this stuff, they're just really important mechanics to go about doing it. I think it's a really promising way to scale

1013
01:32:53.155 --> 01:32:55.815
a way of distributing risk of keys for sure.

1014
01:32:56.370 --> 01:32:57.110
Makes sense.

1015
01:32:57.570 --> 01:32:59.190
So I really wanna talk about,

1016
01:33:00.050 --> 01:33:01.510
Bitcoin bugle, PodConf.

1017
01:33:02.130 --> 01:33:03.909
You seem to be

1018
01:33:04.770 --> 01:33:07.030
their largest fan. Before we start,

1019
01:33:08.530 --> 01:33:11.895
this year. Becca says this year, multi institutional custody. So

1020
01:33:12.295 --> 01:33:12.795
Yes.

1021
01:33:13.095 --> 01:33:14.235
So Becca's listening?

1022
01:33:15.015 --> 01:33:19.355
Of course. Of course, you're listening. Is she cursing me off about the open source section?

1023
01:33:19.895 --> 01:33:24.000
There is a block of text that I haven't been able to read because I'm giving my full attention to the freaks at home.

1024
01:33:24.800 --> 01:33:29.860
If by the way, guys, if you think that Rob is impressive as a founder of AnchorWatch,

1025
01:33:30.880 --> 01:33:32.100
Becca is more impressive.

1026
01:33:32.560 --> 01:33:33.460
She's the

1027
01:33:34.640 --> 01:33:36.340
she's the heart and soul of that business.

1028
01:33:37.195 --> 01:33:47.215
Incredibly impressive founder. Incredibly impressive. No. Yeah. Becca is amazing, and that's a whole I I no. I don't wanna derail too far from the bugle. She's also a huge fan of the bugle, by the way.

1029
01:33:48.235 --> 01:33:50.495
But Becca is a true treasure,

1030
01:33:50.955 --> 01:33:51.455
and

1031
01:33:51.880 --> 01:33:57.980
it's something that when Anchor Watch was literally, like, two slides that I had cobbled together,

1032
01:33:58.280 --> 01:33:59.580
like, the night before,

1033
01:34:00.120 --> 01:34:13.625
she was locked in and wanted and, basically, I basically psyched her into starting it with me. So, she's been our ride or die since the thing began. I mean, it kinda works out because she kinda psyched me into investing and you guys, so

1034
01:34:14.565 --> 01:34:18.745
it all it all comes it all comes full circle. No. We're not gonna we're in.

1035
01:34:19.660 --> 01:34:22.000
Okay. That's personal. That's personal. Of course.

1036
01:34:22.940 --> 01:34:23.840
You guys will,

1037
01:34:24.300 --> 01:34:30.460
what's your shareholder value? You guys, you guys bring a lot of shareholder value to us. We're very good. That's right. That's right.

1038
01:34:31.420 --> 01:34:31.920
Okay.

1039
01:34:32.554 --> 01:34:35.855
Bugle. I see them in the comments. They say Becca is also hotter.

1040
01:34:37.195 --> 01:34:40.014
You are a massive fan boy of Bitcoin bugle

1041
01:34:40.635 --> 01:34:44.415
pod comp. You're probably their biggest fan, their number one groupie,

1042
01:34:44.875 --> 01:34:46.335
their number one woo girl.

1043
01:34:46.980 --> 01:34:49.640
How do you think about the bugle? Are you on their payroll,

1044
01:34:50.820 --> 01:34:52.840
and, what do they bring to the space?

1045
01:34:54.420 --> 01:34:55.240
The Bitcoin

1046
01:34:55.780 --> 01:34:57.560
Bugle weekly podcast.

1047
01:34:57.940 --> 01:35:01.480
First off, you should appreciate this, Matt. They are full value to value.

1048
01:35:01.954 --> 01:35:05.735
They have a little I love it. They have a little donation link on every single page they do.

1049
01:35:06.914 --> 01:35:11.094
They have their just me and them. It's just dispatch and them.

1050
01:35:11.875 --> 01:35:12.934
Yeah. And so

1051
01:35:14.130 --> 01:35:15.510
if you go to their website,

1052
01:35:15.890 --> 01:35:17.110
bugle.news,

1053
01:35:17.409 --> 01:35:24.469
they have breaking content looking at it right now. Their headline article is Donald Trump saves democracy by laying off deep state assassination

1054
01:35:24.770 --> 01:35:25.270
conspirators.

1055
01:35:26.165 --> 01:35:30.585
They have is David Bailey the new Dennis Porter? These are all articles they've written.

1056
01:35:30.965 --> 01:35:32.745
Should women run nodes in Bitcoin?

1057
01:35:34.085 --> 01:35:38.105
Financial analysts predict Babylon be to file for bankruptcy following the end of USAID.

1058
01:35:39.610 --> 01:35:40.110
Ripple

1059
01:35:40.490 --> 01:35:44.590
legal team sends blocks based letter renouncing claims that they would ever invest in Swan.

1060
01:35:45.050 --> 01:35:47.230
Trump to appoint YouTube sensation

1061
01:35:47.930 --> 01:35:49.950
Winslet Diesel as governor of Canada.

1062
01:35:51.525 --> 01:36:01.545
And so they are the ones breaking the thermodynamic news in Bitcoin. Like, the and the Bugle weekly podcast, first off, we have to give name credit names. The the names behind the organization,

1063
01:36:02.085 --> 01:36:02.905
you have Richard,

1064
01:36:03.365 --> 01:36:06.480
Dick Greaser. So you have Dick Greaser and Rod Palmer,

1065
01:36:06.940 --> 01:36:11.040
and they are the hard hitting journalists that Bitcoin deserves.

1066
01:36:11.820 --> 01:36:16.719
And they are in an eternal struggle against PodConf, the podcasting conference complex.

1067
01:36:17.915 --> 01:36:25.935
And PodConf and the bugle are at a very tight tension of managing as PodConf says, compliance is defiance. They're not happy with your,

1068
01:36:26.875 --> 01:36:29.295
your your posting. I went to PodConf's nostrfeed.

1069
01:36:29.595 --> 01:36:32.730
Their most recent post is only feds use UTC time.

1070
01:36:33.770 --> 01:36:38.670
So I think that's a little bit of a subtweet that you subtweet that you, Matt. Even though it's a tweet, but it's on Nostr.

1071
01:36:39.370 --> 01:36:40.510
UTC is amazing.

1072
01:36:41.690 --> 01:36:43.400
UTC is the standard. Disagrees.

1073
01:36:48.935 --> 01:36:49.435
Wow.

1074
01:36:49.815 --> 01:36:57.515
I didn't know that they were gonna talk about it. I was in the RHR studio a couple weeks ago, and then Rob walked me to the gas station and bought me cigarettes. That's true.

1075
01:36:58.055 --> 01:36:58.875
That's true.

1076
01:36:59.575 --> 01:37:00.295
The bugle

1077
01:37:00.775 --> 01:37:02.795
that that is a story that happened with the bugle.

1078
01:37:03.940 --> 01:37:04.980
For me, the,

1079
01:37:06.820 --> 01:37:21.245
the the bugle has the most cunning analysis in talking about it. They also are known for the Maxi Madness podcast. I'm not sure if anyone saw that. They couldn't find out a way to get it on Nostra, which is a huge product note over to I I got to meet Victor at the, MIT conference,

1080
01:37:21.705 --> 01:37:23.405
from Amethyst, but then also,

1081
01:37:24.505 --> 01:37:26.445
He's great. Yeah. Victor's great.

1082
01:37:26.985 --> 01:37:27.885
And then also,

1083
01:37:28.345 --> 01:37:29.565
over for our boy,

1084
01:37:30.985 --> 01:37:33.960
at Primal, it where the polling feature's gonna happen?

1085
01:37:34.440 --> 01:37:35.660
Like, when when poll

1086
01:37:36.040 --> 01:37:37.660
We're gonna do polling soon.

1087
01:37:38.360 --> 01:37:40.620
And it's not gonna be gameable like,

1088
01:37:41.160 --> 01:37:42.140
the x polls.

1089
01:37:42.760 --> 01:37:52.635
Well, the problem is is that we didn't have compliance monitoring for the polling, so we had a lot of bot farms. And this is actually a good point to call out kind of, like, the value that compliance has in Bitcoin is that if we had a compliant polling,

1090
01:37:53.014 --> 01:37:55.675
maybe we've had a different result in the Maxi Madness bracket.

1091
01:37:56.054 --> 01:37:56.454
Yeah.

1092
01:37:57.014 --> 01:37:58.795
Pseudo Carlos, it's Vitter.

1093
01:37:59.255 --> 01:37:59.755
Vitter,

1094
01:38:00.855 --> 01:38:01.355
Pamplona

1095
01:38:01.815 --> 01:38:02.635
is amethyst

1096
01:38:03.160 --> 01:38:07.020
and Millian of primal. They're both great. We're gonna we'll have polling,

1097
01:38:07.720 --> 01:38:15.660
one step at a time. But, yeah, Maxi Madness, I think is I mean, it was just hilarious how much drama that caused. Oh, that it was so good. This year.

1098
01:38:16.684 --> 01:38:26.144
It was so, so good. I had a lot of fun watching that. Then also for Anchor Watch, the big one that we really care about is compliance pride month. Every June, we have compliance pride month.

1099
01:38:26.684 --> 01:38:32.090
Anchor Watch got second last year to fold. I think we're gonna try and run it and take for the crown this year. Oh, it's hard to out comply

1100
01:38:32.550 --> 01:38:40.570
a publicly traded company, but, Becca and I at Anchor Watch really put a lot of pride in our compliance. What did I win? Did I win I won grumpiest podcaster?

1101
01:38:40.870 --> 01:38:42.409
You were the grumpiest podcaster.

1102
01:38:42.710 --> 01:38:50.865
Yeah. Grumpiest. Right. Question from the Bugle guys. They wanna know This is an honor and a privilege. Did you guys did Matt, did you start the GM Nostr

1103
01:38:51.565 --> 01:38:58.065
sensation to try and No. Psyop people into thinking you're not the grumpiest person by wishing everyone good morning every day on Nostr?

1104
01:38:59.560 --> 01:39:05.900
I mean, look, I can't, you can't defend. I can't defend myself here because I might be perceived as grumpy. So

1105
01:39:06.440 --> 01:39:09.580
I I'm, I I'm, I'm honored and it's a privilege.

1106
01:39:10.455 --> 01:39:16.475
Yeah, no, they do really good stuff. It's a good, it's a good trap. They know the trap. Well, I will say to the bugle,

1107
01:39:17.335 --> 01:39:18.555
your greatest piece

1108
01:39:19.495 --> 01:39:19.995
was,

1109
01:39:20.455 --> 01:39:23.115
your expose about me last bear market,

1110
01:39:23.700 --> 01:39:24.600
of of

1111
01:39:24.900 --> 01:39:29.240
of me not being stay stay me not staying humble and having yachts and hoes

1112
01:39:29.700 --> 01:39:34.520
in Dubai, I think, or something. There's like I there's dozens of people that believed it.

1113
01:39:34.900 --> 01:39:35.640
So Touche.

1114
01:39:37.025 --> 01:39:43.205
Yeah. Well, do you have any comment about that? Like, it that's a pretty a big OPSEC blow they were able to find that about you.

1115
01:39:47.105 --> 01:40:06.770
Do you have no comments on the yachts and the women? Okay. That's fine. No comments, probably the best because you've been doxxed. Like, it's it's hard to I've never I've never owned a yacht, and I have a single lady. Well, your modest humble ride or die. What? Rented the you just rented the yacht. You're you're trying to be a little humble, so you just rented the yacht. You Anyway leased a yacht.

1116
01:40:07.415 --> 01:40:12.135
I would say that I'm very grateful that, I'm very grateful that the Bugle Boys are here.

1117
01:40:13.094 --> 01:40:17.995
And I'm I've once again, honored and privileged to be rated the most grumpy podcaster.

1118
01:40:19.415 --> 01:40:22.890
The the part that hurt the part that hurt was who I was up against,

1119
01:40:23.370 --> 01:40:24.570
more than anything. But,

1120
01:40:25.450 --> 01:40:29.130
the the title itself is great. That's right. Did you did see,

1121
01:40:29.690 --> 01:40:30.890
they were the number one,

1122
01:40:31.290 --> 01:40:32.730
fountain podcast last week.

1123
01:40:33.690 --> 01:40:40.715
Dick Greaser had a ninety minute debate with, Mike Brock about thermodynamics and Bitcoin. Yeah. That one was just mean.

1124
01:40:41.175 --> 01:40:42.715
That one was just mean.

1125
01:40:45.094 --> 01:40:50.715
I I my favorite takeaway for that was Dick said that Atlas Shrugged is a good book because cigarettes are a main character.

1126
01:40:51.094 --> 01:40:54.380
And I never thought of it that way before, but this is why,

1127
01:40:55.160 --> 01:40:56.860
Dick is a credentialed journalist,

1128
01:40:57.240 --> 01:40:59.260
has put in the thought and work into all this stuff.

1129
01:40:59.800 --> 01:41:00.540
That was,

1130
01:41:01.720 --> 01:41:02.700
definitely hilarious,

1131
01:41:03.240 --> 01:41:06.380
but probably the closest the bugle has come to crossing the line.

1132
01:41:07.614 --> 01:41:08.114
The,

1133
01:41:09.215 --> 01:41:24.810
they do really great stuff, though. The Bugle weekly podcast, they only are on fountain. They don't post anywhere else. They post They're, like, dominant wave they dominate Wave Lake. There's a wave lake. Generated slop. Oh, it's so good. They were on the AI wave way before it was mass commoditized.

1134
01:41:25.270 --> 01:41:27.370
They did an ad read from me,

1135
01:41:27.830 --> 01:41:32.810
that I did. They did not use AI. It just sounded like AI, but it was my, ITT,

1136
01:41:33.350 --> 01:41:44.265
tech cyberpunk degree and how I used to work at the top. Tech. And then I went to ITT tech school. Yeah. That's that's a reference that the Zoomers do not No. Do not recognize. Online university,

1137
01:41:44.885 --> 01:42:10.375
like, online university for their cyberpunk school, and I went from working at Best Buy on the Geek Squad to starting my own Bitcoin company. And, like, that was all thanks to the ITT Tech, cypherpunk school. And it they put these ad reads right in the middle of everything. It's very beautifully architected. I've been on so their their first guest was Marty Ben. Their first guest well, sorry. It was party Ben. Like AI. It was AI Marty. Right? I think it was no. It was it was a real Marty. I was on. It was the real me.

1138
01:42:10.755 --> 01:42:16.455
You should Matt, you should come on. I think you guys would have a really great time with him. You guys could all talk to him. Already been on?

1139
01:42:17.310 --> 01:42:19.890
I don't think you've been on. Wow.

1140
01:42:20.670 --> 01:42:21.170
Yeah.

1141
01:42:22.990 --> 01:42:23.730
It's offensive.

1142
01:42:24.350 --> 01:42:28.110
Well, the Bugle guys do great work. Bugle.news. Check them out. They're on,

1143
01:42:28.590 --> 01:42:34.125
fountain too. Go to the fountain. That's Bugle weekly podcast. There's a lot of great content there. Check them out. I am not really not. I'm not

1144
01:42:34.785 --> 01:42:36.005
not. I'm not journalism.

1145
01:42:36.625 --> 01:42:39.365
I'm not PodConf. I'm just a very early fan,

1146
01:42:39.825 --> 01:42:57.280
and I'm working hard to get my forty hours per week of Bitcoin podcast in by recording forty hours a week of Bitcoin podcast because that's actually where the shareholder value is, is recording What is the four listening to listening to forty hours? Don't listen to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast a week. No one, like, learned how to drive by listening to forty hours

1147
01:42:57.740 --> 01:43:07.515
of driving podcast. Just drive the car. This is probably gonna be a bugle article that you're renouncing forty hours per week. That's pretty, that's pretty big. 40hpw.com.

1148
01:43:07.515 --> 01:43:10.475
Does someone actually have that domain? 40hpw.com.

1149
01:43:10.475 --> 01:43:12.655
Please tell me someone. They do.

1150
01:43:12.990 --> 01:43:15.570
That that, you know, that it's a good domain.

1151
01:43:16.590 --> 01:43:18.530
There's other good domains out there too.

1152
01:43:18.910 --> 01:43:19.650
Suit corners.

1153
01:43:20.110 --> 01:43:23.490
Suit corners. Good term. The suit corners are amongst us.

1154
01:43:23.870 --> 01:43:26.050
Okay. Well, I'm glad you covered that important

1155
01:43:28.264 --> 01:43:28.764
topic.

1156
01:43:29.145 --> 01:43:30.045
The most important.

1157
01:43:30.665 --> 01:43:33.885
I do truly appreciate that. And I think PodConference is fucking hilarious.

1158
01:43:35.145 --> 01:43:35.784
I think,

1159
01:43:36.105 --> 01:43:37.645
they're running an important mission.

1160
01:43:42.840 --> 01:43:44.300
I'm sorry. I'm reading the comments.

1161
01:43:44.679 --> 01:43:54.860
Pseudo Carlos. Pseudo Carlos is listening to our full back catalog of our HR, and I Yeah. Feel like I nagged him by telling him not to listen to forty hours of click on podcast per week. And he's Yeah.

1162
01:43:56.185 --> 01:43:57.245
You you Okay.

1163
01:43:58.185 --> 01:44:12.810
When Carlos said that I was, like, one of the first what was it, Carlos? You said I was one of the first, like, live donations for our HR. Because he was looking through the backlog, and it was, like, $20.18 or something, and I did, like, a zap I I did some sort of donation or something, and he said I was the first one. A BTC pay server.

1164
01:44:13.510 --> 01:44:14.010
Yeah.

1165
01:44:14.390 --> 01:44:16.170
So I thought that was an interesting call.

1166
01:44:16.470 --> 01:44:22.105
Four years before Anchor Watch existed, I was, do make it first on RHR as a freak. Pre zaps.

1167
01:44:22.645 --> 01:44:24.265
Yeah. Pre zaps. I

1168
01:44:25.045 --> 01:44:26.185
have no topics,

1169
01:44:28.324 --> 01:44:29.465
left to talk about.

1170
01:44:29.765 --> 01:44:32.725
I think This has been a great rip. It's been a really fun rip.

1171
01:44:33.445 --> 01:44:34.985
Yeah. I don't have anything else

1172
01:44:35.285 --> 01:44:35.785
to

1173
01:44:36.349 --> 01:44:38.750
talk about. I think we hit all of the good notes.

1174
01:44:39.150 --> 01:44:43.230
If you wanna learn more, you can follow my end puppy. Go to primal.net/rob.

1175
01:44:44.030 --> 01:44:48.675
You can follow me at rob one ham on Twitter. You can shoot me an email rob@anchorwash.com.

1176
01:44:49.074 --> 01:44:53.175
If you wanna learn more, go to anchor wash dot com if you wanna learn more about what we're doing. And,

1177
01:44:53.554 --> 01:44:57.335
yeah, this has been really great. Maybe we'll make it less than two years before I'm on again.

1178
01:44:57.875 --> 01:45:00.534
Yeah. Let's do you wanna do an update in six months?

1179
01:45:02.130 --> 01:45:03.110
And we'll

1180
01:45:05.250 --> 01:45:12.210
we'll let we'll let the freaks know where we stand on Anchorotch and MiniScript, and it's just good it's just good shooting the shit. I enjoy,

1181
01:45:12.929 --> 01:45:17.625
I've always enjoyed our private conversations, so it's good to have more public conversations. You know?

1182
01:45:18.025 --> 01:45:21.885
Oh, I totally agree. Look at that. PodConference now in the chat.

1183
01:45:22.825 --> 01:45:27.325
I mean, PodConference is very heavy in the chat, and so is Bugle News.

1184
01:45:28.265 --> 01:45:29.885
And I appreciate I appreciate

1185
01:45:31.179 --> 01:45:35.679
either both of them or the same entity, depending on how you look at it.

1186
01:45:36.139 --> 01:45:37.360
They're, they're both great.

1187
01:45:38.780 --> 01:45:42.400
Freaks. Thank you for joining, particularly the ones in the live chat.

1188
01:45:44.175 --> 01:45:49.395
Thank you for supporting the show. If you support the show with Sats, it does mean a lot. It keeps me coming back

1189
01:45:50.255 --> 01:45:50.735
and,

1190
01:45:51.775 --> 01:45:55.554
stops me from being grumpy. So thank you for being a part of that.

1191
01:45:57.054 --> 01:45:57.375
And,

1192
01:45:58.300 --> 01:46:03.440
I got what? Share with your friends and family. They could search a little dispatch on on YouTube

1193
01:46:04.300 --> 01:46:09.280
or their favorite podcast app. Click the subscribe button, steal their phone, click the subscribe button for them.

1194
01:46:11.095 --> 01:46:15.755
Next week, Evan Kaludis is joining. We're gonna talk about Zeus. We're gonna talk about Cashew.

1195
01:46:17.335 --> 01:46:22.875
And, that is the twenty second Tuesday at twenty one hundred UTC. UTC the standard.

1196
01:46:23.460 --> 01:46:30.040
We should eliminate all time zones and just use a single time zone. Doesn't have to be UTC, but it could be anything.

1197
01:46:30.980 --> 01:46:31.480
And

1198
01:46:32.500 --> 01:46:40.844
block block height is for past. UTC is for future. You can't do future block height. You have no idea what the variance is gonna be. That's true.

1199
01:46:41.225 --> 01:46:42.445
Enter Doesn't work.

1200
01:46:44.344 --> 01:46:46.364
What else? Anchorwatch.com.

1201
01:46:48.025 --> 01:46:51.965
They don't bite. You can reach out, see if it fits for you or not.

1202
01:46:53.510 --> 01:47:03.770
They're happy to walk you through the trade offs and how it all works, and they're just a great team. And I I I I'm I'm proud to support them. So, anyway, Rob, thank you for joining. Thanks very much.

1203
01:47:04.310 --> 01:47:06.970
Love you freaks. Stay on the Stack Sats. Peace.