CD132: OPEN SOURCE DESIGN WITH CRISTOPH AND DANIEL

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 5/8/2024 7:12:57 PM
Duration: 6571.925
Channels: 1

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Is

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360%,

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so that's a metric to see how much time and energy people have borrowed from all of you,

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and they didn't make whole on it, they can't pay that back, but that loss has to be realized somewhere by someone.

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And so the question that everyone's trying to wrestle with, like, we could do a debt jubilee,

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where,

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you know, the the US government just says, we're defaulting, and

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then the people that would be paying it back are the bond holders. Right? So they don't do that because Jamie Dimon owns all the bonds. Right?

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So the theory is that everyone in the room pays it back via inflation. And so to me,

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buying bitcoin a lot of in this realm of conversation, buying bitcoin is exiting it and saying,

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I understand that debt to GDP is 360%,

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that there's an insane amount of human time and energy that has been stolen and has to be made whole on, it's not gonna be mine.

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If you're in a financial asset,

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like like an ETF,

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you you're not out like, they they still have access to your time and energy.

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Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks.

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It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive live show focused

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on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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That intro clip was our boy, Jack Mallers,

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in Bedford,

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talking about how

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the suits are stealing our time,

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and they're stealing our money. And the only thing more scarce than Bitcoin is our time. I tried to get a CNBC clip for today's rip.

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But since we're ripping so often,

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and CNBC

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consistently fails to produce decent clips,

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you got Jack instead. You got a little you got a little bullish, bold juice,

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to

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to lead this rip.

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We have a great conversation lined up for today. We're gonna be talking about open source design,

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specifically Bitcoin design.

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I think this is a relatively

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novel concept.

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Usually, open source projects have horrible design,

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which is why it's important.

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I have Daniel here. How's it going, Daniel?

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All good. Thank you. Nice to be here. Great. Thanks for joining us. And we have Christophe. How's it going, Christophe?

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Good. Thanks for having us on here. Awesome. It is. So,

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guys,

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I would be lying if I said that design is my strong suit.

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I like using products that work well, that are intuitive.

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But it's not necessarily something that, like, I've I've been intimately focused in on.

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Why why

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let let's let's start off let's start off with why design why design matters. Like, why should people even care?

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Can I,

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do the first one, Christophe?

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Go for it. Well, I mean, we're we're all we're all,

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users of various products. Right? And like you said, we want them to work well.

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And that, has a lot to do with what's under the hood clearly. Right? The tech is important. But

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if,

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people come to you and want to use your product, and they have no idea what to do,

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how it works, what they should be doing,

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then, you know, they're gonna turn around and go and turn around and leave. So,

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that's basically

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my my perspective on why design is important. And, you know, in in that, I include,

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not just how it looks. That's just the surface. But, you know, it it's how it works. Can we figure it out?

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Is it intuitive?

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Is it safe? Do you feel trust when you see it? Those sort of things. So,

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yeah, like you said, that's been lacking in in in Bitcoin and other heavy tech,

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in general.

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So that's sort of why,

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you know, where the Bitcoin design community

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came from. Right? There's plenty of open source,

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developers

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working on great stuff.

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But,

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that concept is a lot less common when it comes to design and and, you know, the sort of usage side of

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of products.

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So, yeah, that's where we come in in the Bitcoin design community.

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Try to add that

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open source,

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skill set to the mix and make it easier for developers to build

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well designed product, as well as designers

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who want to get into,

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helping with Bitcoin products,

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also. So those 2 kind of,

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groups of people

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converging into

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hopefully being able to build better products faster.

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I love it.

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I see some freaks in the YouTube chat

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for the record.

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Just a reminder,

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the Nostrilive chat is at dispatch.com/stream.

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That's what you see on

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your,

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screen right now.

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Someone's saying the nostril chat is not working,

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which is a disappointment.

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I will ping Kieran right now because we are an incredibly small community.

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So I will just ping the project maintainer and see what's going on.

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But anyway, let's continue with the show.

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So, I mean, Daniel, I I think that was a good

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that was a good

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explanation of why design's important. The way I kinda look at it is

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we have a lot of talented developers that work on open source,

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that that that work on open source projects.

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But a lot of times what they do is is they build for themselves, which is awesome. Like, I think some of the best projects are built

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for the people that are building it, and that's why they they know what they want.

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But as a result, what happens a lot of the times

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is

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oh, look. The nostril chat is alive. Let's fucking go. I didn't even have to ping Karen.

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What happens a lot

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is

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that,

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it's not intuitive. So so what we end up needing is we need, like, 3 hour BDC sessions videos or something like that for people to use it. Would you guys agree that, like, if we get to a good design point,

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it

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you shouldn't need

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as much tutorial videos if anything.

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Yeah. Totally.

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You know, it's still way too hard to

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to set up,

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like, a multi key wall. It's one of the first thing I wanted wanted to do is set up a improve

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how to set up multi sig moments 4 4 years ago when I first started getting into this stuff, and it's still too hard. So I see I see a lot of the stuff that we do here as a it's another layer of abstraction.

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So I think the the developers in a way, they're very comfortable with having a toolbox.

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So if you know exactly what you're building, if you know what every every single tool does, if you have a band saw, if you have a hammer, if you have your nails,

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you have your wood, you know what to build, you know how to work with everything. But a lot of people just want Ikea, you know, they just want to get the the prepared parts and they want to have an instruction manual and they don't really care about choosing the right type of wood and treating it and file folding all the they're getting all the pieces.

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And so I I also think it's pretty crucial for Bitcoin adoption. I mean, we saw in the last few weeks with the Sabi, Samura, and all this stuff,

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Some things are just not great at, let's say, being companies.

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Right? Luckily, we have something like join market, web app, which is an open source variation where that cannot really be taken down. That's just peer to peer.

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So I think we need more tools like that that make this

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all this functionality that exists, but that's only good

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really usable right now for people who are comfortable with the toolbox

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and make that usable for more people. And I think that's an abstraction layer, and that's where user experience design

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comes in, where you don't need to read the anymore, but it just kinda guides you through everything.

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Yeah. I mean, we've had

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a motto from the very beginning in

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the design community to to really try and reach, you know, mass market adoption

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for Bitcoin. And

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that requires

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different sense you know, sensibilities

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and different,

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approaches

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from

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the the the early days, you know, where where the tech is kind of the most important thing.

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But the the more that matures,

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and improves,

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you know, it sort of falls to the wayside, and you need to move on and compete

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on on

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on the next,

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level, which is usability.

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And then, you know, eventually when,

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when you have amazing product with amazing usability, then,

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you know, it it becomes more of maybe normal sort of consumer,

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app place where, okay, now it's a marketing game. Right? All the products are good.

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We just need to reach more people. But, you know, we're somewhere in the, you know, stage 2 with most,

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self custodial open source product, at least. Right?

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So a lot of work to do, but, you know, it's definitely improving. You know, I can already see compared to 4 years ago, there are more alternatives,

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and, you know, they are better.

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So the curve is the curve is there.

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Yeah. That makes sense to me. I'm a little bit distracted because I don't have a producer, and,

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the master stream is broken. We are early days.

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The tech is confusing.

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The the actually, I think he does a good job with design. And I I mean, I don't know how familiar you guys are with the project. But, Carnage is,

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his

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main developer focused on design, and and they do prioritize it.

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So it it's it's I think it's still pretty even though it's only the chat's working and the video's not working.

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But I did ping Kieran,

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and we'll see if

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he he fixes it while we're live. But like I said, the chat is working at least.

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I mean, there's a couple things there to unpack.

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The first thing is I think I

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think is fundamental

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is this idea that design,

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should be user focused.

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So that the user

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everything is intuitive to them. It's not, you know, a lot of us will and I just kind of

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I'm guilty of it. I just said it. Right? It's a lot of us say, like, oh, design. Like, oh, something should be pretty.

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That is just one

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small aspect of it. I think probably the bigger aspect is that it's actually intuitive and usable,

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and that the user doesn't have many questions on on what their flow is and how they should interact with it. And then the second piece is what Christophe said,

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which is,

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I think historically,

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like, private companies have had better design.

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This whole idea of open source design is a relatively newer phenomenon.

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And you guys are kind of fighting the uphill battle being so focused on open source design.

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But, also, like,

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even though productized,

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you know, Bitcoin companies

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could use a lot of help on design. I think you guys are are

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you have a tangential focus on helping them. I mean, open source helps everybody, including private companies. But Christophe did make an interesting point, which is a point that I think should be very clear to

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users, stakeholders,

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founders, builders, everyone in the space, which is right now, like, the regulatory environment the way the regulatory environment feels is I think it's a little bit overplayed in terms of

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concerns to self custody users or the average Bitcoin user.

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Like, I mean, there should be concerns. Like, people should

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constantly

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feel like they're in an adversarial environment because they are.

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But really what a lot of this recent regulatory

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action has shown me and other

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founders in the space is that,

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it's more of a war on founders, and it's more of a war on people that are that wanna monetize projects,

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monetize open source projects,

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even if they're self custody. And in that situation,

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all of a sudden, different foundations

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and initiatives,

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that are providing open source grants become even more important. Because maybe these contributors can't monetize the project directly,

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but at least they can pay their rent

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and and

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have some kind of financial security from grants.

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And so both of you guys

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are Spiral grantees, I believe. Are you still Spiral grantees?

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Are you still receiving any kind of grant from Spiral?

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Yeah.

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It's been

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it's been a good,

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couple of grants,

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my for myself from them.

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The current one is running out. So that's

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an interesting transition, and we we, you know, we can talk more about the Bitcoin Design Foundation

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in a bit. But,

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Well, before we talk about that, let's talk about, like, what is your experience been relying

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an open source grant, period? Like, I just on the spiral grant, period. Like, how how has that been? I assume

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that was new for you guys. Like, that wasn't

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you haven't sustained your whole life based off of open source grants.

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Correct. You know? And,

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you know, I'll let Christophe tell his story in a second, but,

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you know, it's about 4 years ago that, I got chatting to Steve,

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over at,

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you know, what was then Square Crypto, now Spiral.

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And they were, you know, they were building a team. They were they were hiring design hiring developers, and they were also very early on

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aware that, you know, Bitcoin was not gonna succeed if the user experience,

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user experience wasn't better. So, you know, they were they were interested in building out that aspect as well.

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And,

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yeah, it was totally new to me, you know, to

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to have this idea that you could, you know, get paid or get a grant to work on on open source

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design because that it it's still a very

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unusual concept. But, you know, that's also what excited me about it because I,

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you know, way, way, way back in a previous,

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career. I I have worked in the public sector.

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You know, and I think it's very noble, and it's a very good cause to work on stuff that benefits more than yourself and more than a company.

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So I like that aspect and, you know, jumped on it. And,

234
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they have, you know, been the strongest supporter

235
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so far, but, you know, we're we're definitely trying to to widen that circle and make more people aware

236
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of the need. Like, you know, if you're founding developers, and the more the more developers you found, eventually,

237
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you're gonna get to that quota where you where you you need one designer per, you know, 8, 10 developers like,

238
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many corporate companies figure out. Right? Like, to get optimal products,

239
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you can't just have a 100 developers going at it.

240
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Yeah. So

241
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I've never expected this to be a thing at all. I had no idea. I but I got my footing just doing freelance, not doing just for fun because I thought it was cool, doing open source design work for the, I designed the Monero GUI

242
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with that group for two and a half years. Oh, wow. Well, I didn't know that.

243
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Yeah. It's just I totally out of the blue, it just kinda happened. And I learned a ton about,

244
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about designing for a real open community, designing in the open, designing for privacy

245
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with in mind with, like, seriously everything

246
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at a really fundamental level. So I thought it was fascinating after spending many years to it working for

247
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agencies

248
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and freelancing big companies, small companies, everything. It was just really refreshing to me, but I never thought I would make any money with this. But then Square Crypto put this thing out. It's like, hey. We're looking for a designer. Why don't you why don't you apply? So I filled out the form and basically forgot about it. But

249
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eventually because I was like, it's, you know, it's not gonna work, but it's I'll just fill out the form. So but and then it ended up working out, and I thought it was just the most incredible opportunity. I just I just thought I'm gonna I'm gonna be on this. I'm gonna make the best out of this. This is such a cool challenge

250
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because I felt the the power of this technology and what it could do.

251
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And I just saw this huge discrepancy

252
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about, like,

253
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just, yeah, like I said, the power of this technology and then

254
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my interactions with it, like, what I was presented to to actually use it. Right? And I felt like there was just this this this imbalance. And, you know, I've I've seen so many designers and they love working on, you know, these super fancy websites for magazines or so

255
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and that's great if they all want to do that but I mean how many 1000 designers do you need for a social app or for facebook or so? There are many, there are much more things where you can make a much bigger difference.

256
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So I found, I was very I was very excited about that and, I'm still very excited about it. And, I think we made some difference, and I think we can continue

257
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to do more.

258
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Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm

259
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I'm kinda.

260
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So so both of you did

261
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I mean, let's let's just nail into that, Christophe. I mean,

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you

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you did a lot of private work previously. Like, how is it different? I mean, you said it's

264
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refreshing

265
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working on an open project.

266
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From a design perspective, like, how is that different than working on,

267
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like, a private company's

268
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design?

269
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Well, for for one, it was,

270
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you know, for for once, it was it was basically money.

271
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It's a completely new territory, something you could never touch

272
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and and you you can't really have this much freedom. They're like layers of corporate layers and they all wanted to look a certain way and through the process you kind of it all has to be slick and, you know, professional and all of this. But here you can really do whatever you want. There's ton of freedom there. There's lots of new territory.

273
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And then the

274
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the that insane focus on privacy.

275
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At the same time, when I started with Monero, I had I was working with a startup that was VC funded, and they were just, like, hoarding any kind of data they could possibly get their fingers on. And I saw this really strong contrast here, this super principled contrast,

276
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about privacy. And I I didn't actually realize that that exists

277
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somewhere on the Internet. That's that it's possible that some people are just so disciplined.

278
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So I love that. And then another thing was simply that,

279
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I would do some designs. So I whenever it has a huge community on Reddit, it's 150,000

280
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people or so at the time.

281
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And,

282
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what I would design, I would just observe what the problems people have, what they talked about. And then I would come up with some designs. Sometimes I would show them to the developers, and they said, like, don't ask me. Ask the community.

283
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And then I would just try to present it to the community, and we would have these conversations.

284
00:20:14.245 --> 00:20:16.345
And it was just such a a personal,

285
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just open and friendly back and forth where which is very different when you're in a company and you kind of need to make your presentations, you know, the different

286
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different,

287
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executive suites or so, and you need to have sign off from the marketing team and all these things.

288
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It it was just much more personal

289
00:20:35.495 --> 00:20:41.755
and community focused, and I thought it I really appreciated that. And that answers your question.

290
00:20:42.850 --> 00:20:52.230
Yeah. There's one piece there I wanna break down, because I think this is really difficult. Specifically for I mean, when we're talking about open source design, it's almost always

291
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a freedom focused project.

292
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Usually

293
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I mean, you can't have freedom without privacy. So usually there's an aspect

294
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of of of privacy built in there or expected their privacy expectation.

295
00:21:05.780 --> 00:21:07.400
And that's gotta be a key

296
00:21:07.935 --> 00:21:08.435
That's

297
00:21:08.895 --> 00:21:11.315
gotta be a key fundamental difference is that

298
00:21:11.935 --> 00:21:12.435
usually

299
00:21:12.815 --> 00:21:17.555
when you talk about user focused design, like this idea that I'm gonna build a product

300
00:21:17.909 --> 00:21:18.650
that users,

301
00:21:19.350 --> 00:21:25.450
that's intuitive to users. You do, like, a b test. You're, like, tracking their clicks. You're, like, doing all this stuff.

302
00:21:25.794 --> 00:21:31.794
Then you guys kinda have to shoot from the hip. Right? If if privacy matters, like, you you're you're kind of

303
00:21:32.595 --> 00:21:38.220
like, how do you how do you battle with that aspect? Like, how do you know if the design is actually good or useful

304
00:21:38.760 --> 00:21:42.925
because you're not actually logging the information that would usually tell you that?

305
00:21:43.565 --> 00:21:45.905
I don't know. I feel like it's more honest this way.

306
00:21:46.365 --> 00:21:51.260
I I think in a in a in a company environment, you can kind of hide behind the data.

307
00:21:51.580 --> 00:21:58.880
You can you can you can you can gather so much data and you still don't really know what people are feeling or seeing or how they're going through things.

308
00:21:59.225 --> 00:22:01.085
But I think it's it's just much simpler.

309
00:22:02.185 --> 00:22:03.965
It forces you to talk to people,

310
00:22:04.265 --> 00:22:08.205
to to do interviews, to get them on a call or

311
00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:17.930
give them lots of options. And people are more eager to give you feedback because they they have this more communal relationship with the product, and you have much more direct contact. You're just everyone has a

312
00:22:18.445 --> 00:22:19.985
everyone has a telegram channel. Every product has

313
00:22:20.445 --> 00:22:23.825
1. You have these open forums. It's it's all right there. In a way, it's it's more simple and more direct, and you get more honest

314
00:22:27.600 --> 00:22:29.540
feedback. You just ask the users.

315
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.100
Yeah. You just you just design together.

316
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.980
Yeah.

317
00:22:33.280 --> 00:22:39.915
That's good. We should mention we should mention that a big part of the coin design community is actually a user research

318
00:22:40.295 --> 00:22:41.435
part as well.

319
00:22:42.215 --> 00:22:42.695
Moe,

320
00:22:44.215 --> 00:22:45.435
are kind of a third,

321
00:22:45.895 --> 00:22:49.740
partner in crime. Well, absolutely, not in crime, but, like,

322
00:22:50.120 --> 00:22:51.180
partner in work.

323
00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:56.434
It's important to make that clear nowadays. Very clear. Yeah. Yeah. Part partner in work,

324
00:22:57.455 --> 00:22:58.434
partner in community,

325
00:22:59.294 --> 00:23:00.835
very active. She is,

326
00:23:01.465 --> 00:23:01.965
she's

327
00:23:02.950 --> 00:23:06.890
a force of nature when it comes to user research, and it's kind of the the flag bearer

328
00:23:07.350 --> 00:23:09.130
in that aspect and has

329
00:23:09.885 --> 00:23:15.025
user research kit that she's created with the community. She works with the Bitcoin core,

330
00:23:16.924 --> 00:23:20.040
app team and, you know, really, really,

331
00:23:20.820 --> 00:23:21.320
represents

332
00:23:22.260 --> 00:23:25.640
and does what everybody says they should do, talk to users.

333
00:23:26.985 --> 00:23:28.445
So that that is kind of

334
00:23:28.745 --> 00:23:30.205
the best way to

335
00:23:30.745 --> 00:23:34.125
to get real feedback on Bitcoin products. But because you're right. You know?

336
00:23:34.850 --> 00:23:36.390
No data is connect collected.

337
00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:44.405
You know, we have bitcoin dot design and and the the design guide there, but we don't collect any data on who go who goes there either. So

338
00:23:45.105 --> 00:23:45.845
To the website.

339
00:23:46.385 --> 00:23:50.645
Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because that would be no you don't wanna do that either.

340
00:23:51.320 --> 00:23:51.820
Oh.

341
00:23:52.760 --> 00:23:55.420
What okay. What the hell is the Bitcoin design community?

342
00:23:57.880 --> 00:23:59.580
Yeah. So it's, it's,

343
00:24:00.985 --> 00:24:03.965
it started out 4 years ago as literally just like

344
00:24:04.345 --> 00:24:09.325
an online place, a community started as a Slack Slack group, but is now on Discord.

345
00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:11.020
Just a place where,

346
00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:12.220
all these

347
00:24:12.520 --> 00:24:15.900
people that were working on Bitcoin design, whether

348
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:19.795
they were a developer that had do the design or, you know, designers

349
00:24:20.495 --> 00:24:21.395
getting familiarized.

350
00:24:22.575 --> 00:24:29.289
We knew that there were many of those people, but we didn't know where to find them or that they didn't know where to go to talk about those subjects.

351
00:24:30.470 --> 00:24:33.415
So that was the first the first kind of place,

352
00:24:33.895 --> 00:24:35.995
that the community could call home.

353
00:24:36.455 --> 00:24:38.475
And then from there, sprung various

354
00:24:38.775 --> 00:24:39.275
ideas

355
00:24:39.575 --> 00:24:40.315
of creating

356
00:24:40.695 --> 00:24:41.195
resources

357
00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:48.040
that, other people could use. Right? I think we've all had this feeling, like, when we first got into the game,

358
00:24:49.325 --> 00:24:54.865
or the or the the world of Bitcoin, you're like, you have to start from scratch. Right? You have to learn all these concepts,

359
00:24:55.645 --> 00:24:57.105
pick it up along the way.

360
00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:03.360
And that was the case for designers trying to work with Bitcoin products as well. So we we figured,

361
00:25:03.820 --> 00:25:06.960
well, why don't we try and create something that can,

362
00:25:07.405 --> 00:25:08.945
you know, speed up that journey?

363
00:25:09.325 --> 00:25:17.025
So that's where the Bitcoin design guide came into place, which is sort of a collection of thoughts around all the common flows

364
00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:18.370
from onboarding

365
00:25:18.670 --> 00:25:19.570
to kind of,

366
00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:25.970
what do you do with recovery phrases, how should it talk to users about what that even is,

367
00:25:26.524 --> 00:25:29.105
all of that kind of package of knowledge,

368
00:25:30.765 --> 00:25:31.265
and

369
00:25:32.125 --> 00:25:34.865
UX and UI. So examples, visuals.

370
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:40.059
That's kind of what we first started building,

371
00:25:40.679 --> 00:25:47.475
and is now a great resource. Got all these flows and also lots of, reference designs for, you know,

372
00:25:48.335 --> 00:25:49.635
self custody wallets,

373
00:25:50.415 --> 00:25:55.170
sort of daily spending wallets. It's got more advanced use cases where

374
00:25:55.710 --> 00:25:56.370
it's saving,

375
00:25:57.070 --> 00:25:59.970
you know, savings accounts and multisig. So,

376
00:26:00.355 --> 00:26:05.975
yeah, just a huge collection of stuff. So that that's sort of the core of it. And then maybe Christophe can add

377
00:26:06.595 --> 00:26:09.795
add the sort of more recent bits we've been working on as well or or,

378
00:26:10.660 --> 00:26:12.840
resources that people can just take and go?

379
00:26:13.620 --> 00:26:36.170
No thing. Yeah. That's one of the so, again, you kind of have this community aspect where just everyone's invited to to hang out who who cares about design and and building these products in an open source fashion. And we've seen all kinds of things. Like, one of the earliest projects in there was Alby when it was just came out of the lightning browser extension. And we had these sessions coming up with the name and the logo and and all of this stuff.

380
00:26:36.605 --> 00:26:46.065
The join market web app came out of it through, legends of lightning kinda came out of all kinds of projects, you know, kind of emerged from all of these different activity. And

381
00:26:46.429 --> 00:26:49.410
we had we had lots of, you know, design review calls with

382
00:26:49.789 --> 00:26:56.365
just dozens of different projects and companies, 1010.1 Finance or Hexa, which is now Keeper,

383
00:26:57.065 --> 00:26:57.565
and,

384
00:26:58.425 --> 00:27:03.805
Mutiny was on was it last week or a couple weeks ago? Just as this place to hang out.

385
00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:09.070
And then we have these public resources, which is basically everyone's brain power,

386
00:27:09.610 --> 00:27:13.390
all the knowledge in one place so everyone else can benefit from it.

387
00:27:14.765 --> 00:27:22.065
Yeah. The 3rd part where where, like I already mentioned, all these collaborations that are going on right now, there's a design project with bitcoin layers happening,

388
00:27:22.700 --> 00:27:24.080
bitcoin core apps happening,

389
00:27:24.460 --> 00:27:26.000
saving Satoshi is in there.

390
00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.960
Alby still has a channel in the discord.

391
00:27:29.795 --> 00:27:33.655
What else have we going on? There's always a bunch of interesting projects happening.

392
00:27:35.235 --> 00:27:39.335
And, then I think the the 4th pillar now has become the foundation,

393
00:27:40.020 --> 00:27:42.360
which is about making this whole effort sustainable

394
00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:48.360
and having about that. What is the foundation? Where do we stand with the foundation? What's the goal?

395
00:27:48.804 --> 00:27:49.705
What is it?

396
00:27:51.764 --> 00:27:54.345
So it's like like drink or open sets.

397
00:27:54.965 --> 00:27:55.865
You can donate

398
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.700
bitcoin money to it and it'll it'll go to designers

399
00:28:00.080 --> 00:28:00.800
and design,

400
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:02.980
doing design related activities

401
00:28:03.280 --> 00:28:05.140
for open source bitcoin projects.

402
00:28:05.495 --> 00:28:12.395
That's what it is. And it's a very practical it's a very it's the smallest vehicle to achieve that that we could possibly

403
00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:17.500
come up with. 1st of all, because we're a small group of people. We try to be nimble. We try to start,

404
00:28:17.820 --> 00:28:19.519
get things going in a small way.

405
00:28:19.820 --> 00:28:21.679
But so far, Spiral has been,

406
00:28:22.245 --> 00:28:25.145
as we already talked about earlier, has been kind of the

407
00:28:25.605 --> 00:28:28.105
entity that pushed design in this space.

408
00:28:28.485 --> 00:28:32.809
But the idea was always, it's been around for years, that this needs to become more sustainable.

409
00:28:34.230 --> 00:28:35.850
So there are multiple donors,

410
00:28:37.190 --> 00:28:37.929
you know, helping,

411
00:28:38.549 --> 00:28:42.385
keep this effort going. And that there's also it's it's a bit more decentralized.

412
00:28:42.765 --> 00:28:51.370
Right? Would be a shame if, you know, a spiral goes away, someone changes their mind, and then all of all of a sudden, you know, this whole thing will start come crashing down.

413
00:28:51.909 --> 00:28:54.250
And, it's great to have design representation

414
00:28:54.630 --> 00:29:02.644
in that whole circle, in that whole funding conversation happening because it does bring a bit of a different perspective, and it can support work that otherwise maybe

415
00:29:03.105 --> 00:29:20.875
does not find the right place. And we've already heard from several designers that said, you know, I saw there's a foundation now. Even before we did anything, when we established it, they they said there's a foundation now. I want to be more serious about doing open source bitcoin design work. We heard that from several people right away. So it does

416
00:29:21.815 --> 00:29:24.155
it is a signal for people, I think.

417
00:29:24.455 --> 00:29:26.075
We're still very early on it.

418
00:29:27.370 --> 00:29:29.630
What did we have? We had our 1st quarterly update

419
00:29:30.090 --> 00:29:32.750
a few weeks ago. Awesome. So there's a ton,

420
00:29:33.050 --> 00:29:35.710
ton there still to do. What did I miss, Daniel?

421
00:29:36.245 --> 00:29:41.845
Have you actually received any donations or, like, sizable donations? Are you actually paying out grants? Or

422
00:29:44.419 --> 00:29:45.240
Yeah. So,

423
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:50.679
we've been active for more or less at 1 quarter, and I think we're on

424
00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:51.880
our 3rd

425
00:29:52.774 --> 00:29:54.635
or so announced grant,

426
00:29:55.095 --> 00:29:56.635
with a bunch of them,

427
00:29:57.174 --> 00:29:58.955
being finalized now. So

428
00:29:59.255 --> 00:30:00.294
we're definitely active.

429
00:30:00.855 --> 00:30:01.355
And

430
00:30:02.470 --> 00:30:02.970
we,

431
00:30:03.270 --> 00:30:05.450
again, you know, sort of been

432
00:30:05.990 --> 00:30:08.890
immensely lucky to be supported by Spiral. And the idea

433
00:30:09.575 --> 00:30:12.955
I think they have is to instead of having to deal with individual

434
00:30:13.975 --> 00:30:14.475
designers,

435
00:30:16.830 --> 00:30:19.250
then instead funding us with with,

436
00:30:20.510 --> 00:30:21.490
with a

437
00:30:22.350 --> 00:30:28.735
bunch of money that we can then be closer to to this part of the ecosystem, and we have a kind of a,

438
00:30:29.755 --> 00:30:35.215
a better overview of who's actually already active, who's who's engaging, who's got skills, etcetera.

439
00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:37.470
So

440
00:30:37.850 --> 00:30:39.950
part of what they were contributing

441
00:30:40.330 --> 00:30:42.110
will sort of move over to

442
00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:43.950
the Bitcoin Design Foundation.

443
00:30:44.625 --> 00:30:48.165
But, of course, we wanna grow the pie. Right? So we're talking to other people,

444
00:30:49.025 --> 00:30:50.485
because the idea is that

445
00:30:50.785 --> 00:30:55.820
over the next couple of years, which we wanna multiply, you know, what was available for designers,

446
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:06.215
to give out more grants, to have more designers working with the increasing number of developers that are getting grants from from the open source,

447
00:31:06.935 --> 00:31:07.435
funding

448
00:31:08.055 --> 00:31:08.555
organizations.

449
00:31:09.630 --> 00:31:14.930
Yeah. And just to to add something to that, I see Open Source Justice Foundation also chiming in here.

450
00:31:15.550 --> 00:31:19.585
I chat a lot with, who did the design for the website recently. Also, recently.

451
00:31:19.965 --> 00:31:22.705
Also nice work there and what the team's doing.

452
00:31:23.885 --> 00:31:32.540
So everything we do is completely transparent. We are our fiscal host is Open Collective Europe and they have a platform. If you go to, was it opencollective.com,

453
00:31:33.080 --> 00:31:35.715
look for Bitcoin Design Foundation or go to bitcoindesignfoundation.org,

454
00:31:37.055 --> 00:31:38.355
all the information is there.

455
00:31:39.215 --> 00:31:39.715
So,

456
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:50.340
any donation that comes in is publicly visible. All the expenses, any grant we give out is publicly visible. Of course, there's a certain anonymity level

457
00:31:50.855 --> 00:31:52.715
or pseudonymity level for

458
00:31:53.175 --> 00:31:56.155
grantees as they desire based on their preference.

459
00:31:56.535 --> 00:31:58.875
But otherwise, everything can be completely

460
00:31:59.620 --> 00:32:00.120
completely,

461
00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:04.360
transparent, and we post updates there. We have, like, 6 updates,

462
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:12.975
announcements lined up right now. We also just put more casual updates in our Discord channel, the foundation channel in the Bitcoin design

463
00:32:14.235 --> 00:32:14.735
Discord.

464
00:32:15.560 --> 00:32:19.420
So, yeah, trying to trying to be completely open about all of this.

465
00:32:21.320 --> 00:32:21.820
Awesome.

466
00:32:22.985 --> 00:32:24.285
You guys might have noticed

467
00:32:24.585 --> 00:32:27.005
I have not heard back from Kieran,

468
00:32:27.625 --> 00:32:29.965
and I've been trying to troubleshoot in the background.

469
00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:36.399
So our nostril stream right now is not working. It seems like we have some ride or dies in the YouTube chat.

470
00:32:36.860 --> 00:32:46.530
So I've pulled the YouTube chat up, for us all to see. And and also, Christophe was calling out the YouTube chat, so it felt like it it should be on screen.

471
00:32:47.570 --> 00:32:49.350
That is not an endorsement of Google.

472
00:32:49.970 --> 00:32:51.670
We will rely on them today.

473
00:32:52.290 --> 00:32:55.225
But in the future, we will go back to our Nostra chat.

474
00:32:56.184 --> 00:32:57.485
Bitcoin Design Foundation.

475
00:32:59.304 --> 00:33:00.525
So first of all,

476
00:33:00.985 --> 00:33:02.445
cofounder of Open Sats.

477
00:33:05.050 --> 00:33:05.950
Gone through

478
00:33:06.890 --> 00:33:09.130
I mean, maybe it's been 4 years now.

479
00:33:09.530 --> 00:33:14.190
Open Sats has really been on people's radar for, like, 16 months, 18 months, or something.

480
00:33:15.225 --> 00:33:16.365
But there was a lot

481
00:33:19.385 --> 00:33:20.125
of, early

482
00:33:21.145 --> 00:33:25.690
work that had to be done. A lot a lot of work. It's a it's a thankless exhausting,

483
00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:27.690
job.

484
00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:30.650
But someone has to do it. And so,

485
00:33:32.215 --> 00:33:37.275
I'm grateful for our team in open sats. We have a 9 person board. I'm grateful for Gigi, our full time,

486
00:33:38.215 --> 00:33:40.940
leader of the ship who came on about a year ago.

487
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.700
Grateful for the couple part time staff that helped Gigi out.

488
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:46.940
But,

489
00:33:47.945 --> 00:33:48.924
having said that,

490
00:33:49.705 --> 00:33:54.605
a key a key problem that everyone that is, like, active in this ecosystem,

491
00:33:54.985 --> 00:33:58.010
in terms of open source grants, is intimately aware

492
00:33:58.790 --> 00:34:00.570
of is what I like to call,

493
00:34:01.270 --> 00:34:02.809
the Jack Dorsey problem,

494
00:34:03.430 --> 00:34:04.490
which is actually

495
00:34:05.725 --> 00:34:07.504
kind of poorly named because

496
00:34:07.965 --> 00:34:10.224
I am incredibly grateful for Jack,

497
00:34:10.845 --> 00:34:12.224
supporting so many

498
00:34:12.740 --> 00:34:13.720
of these initiatives.

499
00:34:14.900 --> 00:34:17.400
But right now, it's mostly him.

500
00:34:18.100 --> 00:34:21.960
Whether that's through Spiral, whether that's through him donating to open sets,

501
00:34:23.125 --> 00:34:26.025
individually, whether that's him donating to Brink individually.

502
00:34:26.484 --> 00:34:28.665
I would say HRF probably has

503
00:34:29.204 --> 00:34:30.025
the most

504
00:34:31.029 --> 00:34:35.930
diverse donor base just because they came from the human rights angle and then branched into Bitcoin.

505
00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:37.930
So they do have,

506
00:34:38.710 --> 00:34:40.329
some other donors there.

507
00:34:40.825 --> 00:34:43.085
But I'm curious, like, what you guys are thinking

508
00:34:43.865 --> 00:34:44.905
in terms of,

509
00:34:46.825 --> 00:34:51.420
and and and specifically, like, this can be a problem. I I don't think you guys are a 501c3

510
00:34:51.799 --> 00:34:54.619
yet. But, like, our biggest issue as a public 501c3

511
00:34:55.640 --> 00:34:56.779
that offers nonprofit,

512
00:34:58.119 --> 00:34:59.660
tax deductible donations

513
00:35:00.105 --> 00:35:01.725
is we cannot have a single

514
00:35:02.345 --> 00:35:11.180
we cannot have a single party being the lion's share of our donations. We've and, like, we've gotten I'm I'm not trying to dismiss the plebs. The plebs have been amazing.

515
00:35:11.640 --> 00:35:13.820
We've gotten, like, 2 1,000, 25100,

516
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:15.980
3000, something like that,

517
00:35:16.635 --> 00:35:22.495
individual donations, which is fucking cool. Right? Like, $50 here, a 1000000 sats here, like

518
00:35:23.035 --> 00:35:24.095
like, real donations.

519
00:35:24.860 --> 00:35:27.840
But if you size them up compared to Jack,

520
00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:35.155
it's it's not that much. And one day, maybe that'll surpass. So I'm curious. Like, obviously, you guys are,

521
00:35:38.015 --> 00:35:41.954
uphill battle, Bitcoin design, uphill battle, open source.

522
00:35:43.579 --> 00:35:47.900
How do you guys think about trying to, like, increase that donor pie? Like, how do you

523
00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:52.635
I I think the question is really twofold. Right? One is,

524
00:35:53.335 --> 00:35:56.155
how do you convince people that they should donate, period?

525
00:35:56.535 --> 00:35:58.875
And then second of all, how do you convince people that,

526
00:35:59.359 --> 00:36:00.339
you know, maybe

527
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:02.420
they shouldn't just solely

528
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:04.980
be contributing to open source contributors.

529
00:36:06.240 --> 00:36:08.500
They should also specifically support

530
00:36:08.885 --> 00:36:11.545
design, not just necessarily building the tools.

531
00:36:13.525 --> 00:36:15.465
Yeah. Those are all great questions,

532
00:36:16.645 --> 00:36:17.625
that we are

533
00:36:19.430 --> 00:36:21.690
trying to learn about and get better.

534
00:36:22.470 --> 00:36:25.430
And, you know, starting off, I would just like to call out,

535
00:36:25.910 --> 00:36:26.569
the other

536
00:36:27.035 --> 00:36:30.255
donors that we have had, including the Human Rights Foundation,

537
00:36:31.915 --> 00:36:33.775
and a couple of individuals,

538
00:36:34.235 --> 00:36:36.255
and, the Bitbox team.

539
00:36:37.259 --> 00:36:38.059
So so we're very

540
00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:39.920
you know, so we are

541
00:36:41.660 --> 00:36:44.240
also already getting some other ones. And,

542
00:36:44.885 --> 00:36:46.585
but, clearly, the goal is to

543
00:36:47.365 --> 00:36:48.984
increase the, you know,

544
00:36:49.285 --> 00:36:50.025
the the amount

545
00:36:50.405 --> 00:36:55.050
that we have available for grants quite significantly, and that is normally done

546
00:36:55.590 --> 00:36:56.090
with,

547
00:36:57.110 --> 00:36:58.170
bigger organizations.

548
00:36:58.710 --> 00:36:59.530
Right? And

549
00:37:00.390 --> 00:37:03.065
we're learning as we go. We are, you know, talking

550
00:37:03.865 --> 00:37:10.045
to the people who are more experienced, like yourself, like like other teams that have built up these organizations for developers.

551
00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:21.349
So, you know, we have we have applications out. We're not we're not proud. We're we're trying to to ask for money where where we know that,

552
00:37:22.245 --> 00:37:23.705
there exists some pots.

553
00:37:25.685 --> 00:37:28.985
But on top of It's hard it's hard asking for money. Right?

554
00:37:29.500 --> 00:37:30.000
Yes.

555
00:37:30.540 --> 00:37:33.839
Yeah. It's it's a skill. It's a skill. These are me me familiar.

556
00:37:35.740 --> 00:37:40.775
And, you know, on top of that, we're not just asking for money for Bitcoin

557
00:37:41.155 --> 00:37:49.700
developers. Right? Like, I think there's some sort of agreement or awareness that, like, oh, yeah. There's no no there's no company behind Bitcoin. We probably need to

558
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.180
figure out a way to to make this work.

559
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:53.780
But

560
00:37:54.625 --> 00:37:55.125
design

561
00:37:55.905 --> 00:37:56.645
is still

562
00:37:57.425 --> 00:38:06.390
a layer beyond that. Right? Like, you you talk to people who have just gotten comfortable with donating to developers, and they're like, hang on a second. I thought I had fixed this.

563
00:38:06.930 --> 00:38:09.030
I thought they were giving to Bitcoin already.

564
00:38:09.970 --> 00:38:12.150
So, you know, there's another kind of

565
00:38:13.655 --> 00:38:14.155
education

566
00:38:15.174 --> 00:38:21.780
needed there sometimes for people who are who are not aware of, you know, the the need and the value of

567
00:38:22.160 --> 00:38:24.500
product actually being usable as well.

568
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:29.220
You know, of course, the protocol has to work first before the products can work, but

569
00:38:29.575 --> 00:38:31.835
sooner or later, you get to that point. So,

570
00:38:32.295 --> 00:38:32.795
yeah,

571
00:38:33.415 --> 00:38:36.795
we all you know, we're aware this is a long game. Right? We're not expecting

572
00:38:37.095 --> 00:38:38.075
to to double,

573
00:38:39.500 --> 00:38:43.520
our pot in the 1st year. Right? That this is a 5 to 10 year journey.

574
00:38:44.140 --> 00:38:49.135
Like you've said as well, it's you have to build up your awareness, and we're trying to do it with,

575
00:38:49.435 --> 00:38:52.655
you know, proof of work. There's a lot of stuff that's been done,

576
00:38:53.115 --> 00:38:58.590
and we continue to do. And I think that's the best way to do it, you know, and prove that you're actually adding value.

577
00:39:00.650 --> 00:39:05.755
Yeah. I mean, that's kinda what I was trying to, like, hone in on. Like, I think it's an uphill battle

578
00:39:06.535 --> 00:39:07.995
on the open set side.

579
00:39:08.855 --> 00:39:09.755
And I think

580
00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:15.250
it's it's important to call out that, like, I think your battle is even

581
00:39:16.430 --> 00:39:19.650
like, you have a steeper hill than OpenSats does.

582
00:39:20.715 --> 00:39:23.695
What you're what you're saying is we have to be even more optimistic.

583
00:39:24.155 --> 00:39:25.775
Yeah. Even more yeah. Exactly.

584
00:39:26.795 --> 00:39:27.935
Productive optimism.

585
00:39:28.540 --> 00:39:29.040
Because

586
00:39:30.220 --> 00:39:32.960
for whatever reason, like, design does

587
00:39:35.100 --> 00:39:35.980
does take

588
00:39:37.744 --> 00:39:40.005
it is not usually in the, like

589
00:39:40.464 --> 00:39:45.285
there's not enough in from a private company perspective, it's usually not founders first priority.

590
00:39:46.530 --> 00:39:51.910
From an open source perspective, it's even less so. I I think there's something interesting there, though.

591
00:39:54.105 --> 00:39:56.605
There's something interesting there in what Christophe said,

592
00:39:57.065 --> 00:39:57.565
which

593
00:39:58.345 --> 00:40:00.045
is is something like Albie

594
00:40:00.505 --> 00:40:02.204
helping them with their design,

595
00:40:03.130 --> 00:40:04.750
in an open source fashion.

596
00:40:05.370 --> 00:40:10.030
It's like I there's I there's a compelling argument you can make to monetize private

597
00:40:10.410 --> 00:40:12.190
companies that build on FOSS.

598
00:40:12.905 --> 00:40:14.925
That, like, oh, we'll help you with design.

599
00:40:15.465 --> 00:40:17.565
And then, like, you scratch your back afterwards.

600
00:40:18.185 --> 00:40:20.205
I don't know if that's, like, a active

601
00:40:21.910 --> 00:40:26.809
way you guys are thinking about it, but I'm just thinking out loud and that kinda makes sense to me.

602
00:40:29.825 --> 00:40:32.645
Yeah. I think that's that's where it's kind of good to to,

603
00:40:33.505 --> 00:40:46.765
you know, it's Daniel and myself and and Moe, we we help run the the foundation, which is just this tiny little thing. But the community is a wide open space. Anyone can do whatever they want in there, almost as long as it's bitcoin.

604
00:40:49.065 --> 00:40:53.645
So if there are individuals working for companies, that's great. If there are people working on,

605
00:40:54.350 --> 00:41:00.850
you know, freelance projects or open source projects, so that's all great. There's just this common mission around helping make

606
00:41:01.230 --> 00:41:02.450
bitcoin more usable.

607
00:41:02.915 --> 00:41:09.095
And I I think the the the funding and the foundation activity that that is and that has to be for open source.

608
00:41:09.474 --> 00:41:13.640
There's just no way around that. But on an individual basis, you know, people can choose

609
00:41:13.940 --> 00:41:14.440
to

610
00:41:14.740 --> 00:41:17.720
engage as it works for them. Not everyone can

611
00:41:18.205 --> 00:41:23.505
or you know, it's I think it's a privilege to to be able to focus on fully on open source.

612
00:41:23.885 --> 00:41:26.705
And, you know Yeah. For many people, it's just not an option.

613
00:41:27.160 --> 00:41:28.120
So we have a question

614
00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:30.140
oh, go. Daniel, go.

615
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:35.180
Yeah. Just saying that a very good scenario from our perspective as well is that if if projects,

616
00:41:35.645 --> 00:41:38.705
you know, start off as a hackathon thing and then become

617
00:41:39.485 --> 00:41:44.625
a company or a commercial project, that that's amazing. Right? That's sort of graduating from

618
00:41:45.299 --> 00:41:48.119
open source or ideas into something that can

619
00:41:48.500 --> 00:41:51.319
take off. And the same thing with people who

620
00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:53.135
might start off with a grant,

621
00:41:53.755 --> 00:42:04.349
designers and work with with open source projects. And then maybe they later, you know, land a job with a with a with a commercial Bitcoin company. That's also success, you know. We're growing the pie of people

622
00:42:04.730 --> 00:42:06.190
and projects sort of

623
00:42:06.490 --> 00:42:07.950
graduating up the stack.

624
00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:09.815
Yeah. I mean yeah. Go on.

625
00:42:10.295 --> 00:42:22.869
I was just gonna add there. There's also something that companies can benefit from is this these best practices that we're documenting with the guide. So how are people gonna interact with poll 12 or silent payments or what's the terminology

626
00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:31.825
around multi sig setups and all this tech that's emerging and and coming out. If all the wallets and everyone has different UIs, then, you know,

627
00:42:32.860 --> 00:42:44.615
it's just not going to work as smoothly as if there are some some UX standards that all these exchanges and all these other companies can simply take and build on top of. So I think there's kind of a moderating

628
00:42:45.075 --> 00:42:52.510
I don't know. What is it? Standard function interrupt really be function there for this design community around UX that is beneficial

629
00:42:53.450 --> 00:43:00.430
to everyone else in the ecosystem too. Just like developers create libraries and all these open source tools then that then other companies can simply

630
00:43:01.555 --> 00:43:03.335
plug in to their business.

631
00:43:03.715 --> 00:43:04.935
Yeah. I mean, I think

632
00:43:05.235 --> 00:43:06.935
at the core of a lot of this,

633
00:43:08.035 --> 00:43:13.369
at the core of of of this movement, whether that's Bitcoin, whether that's Nasr, or other Freedom Tech,

634
00:43:13.910 --> 00:43:17.690
is is oftentimes is is user choice and mobility.

635
00:43:18.305 --> 00:43:19.285
Right? And if

636
00:43:19.985 --> 00:43:22.965
if if you have some level of design standards

637
00:43:23.905 --> 00:43:26.325
that a lot of different projects implement,

638
00:43:27.510 --> 00:43:34.570
In practice, what that means is it's easier for a user to switch between projects, which I think is integral to the whole movement.

639
00:43:35.925 --> 00:43:37.385
Like, that's the core thing

640
00:43:37.925 --> 00:43:40.425
that keeps everyone as honest as possible

641
00:43:40.805 --> 00:43:45.230
is that that that user is not captured. They're not behind a walled garden. They can move.

642
00:43:46.170 --> 00:43:49.150
And that's not just them moving their private key

643
00:43:49.450 --> 00:43:50.615
or their seed words

644
00:43:51.015 --> 00:43:56.795
or or whatnot. It's also them actually being able to use the thing they move to in an intuitive way.

645
00:43:57.575 --> 00:43:59.970
So that's, I think, a really good point you make,

646
00:44:00.530 --> 00:44:02.310
in terms of design standards,

647
00:44:03.010 --> 00:44:07.590
giving greater interoperability, giving greater user movement, user choice, competition.

648
00:44:09.595 --> 00:44:10.975
I would say that

649
00:44:11.835 --> 00:44:13.215
to Daniel's point,

650
00:44:15.515 --> 00:44:16.735
this has been something

651
00:44:18.170 --> 00:44:19.390
that I've been

652
00:44:20.250 --> 00:44:26.750
my goal with open sets and with everything else I do in the space is, like, grants are a bootstrap mechanism.

653
00:44:27.485 --> 00:44:28.625
And then, ultimately,

654
00:44:29.805 --> 00:44:35.745
the ideal situation is you find I mean, on my side, like, you find a developer like a Cali

655
00:44:36.220 --> 00:44:39.119
or a Craig Raw or something like one of these, like

656
00:44:39.420 --> 00:44:47.315
I guess they call them 10 x developers. Like, one of these people that are just in insanely good at what they do, And they just produce and they ship.

657
00:44:47.775 --> 00:44:50.035
And and you bootstrap them with grants.

658
00:44:50.735 --> 00:44:51.475
And then

659
00:44:52.015 --> 00:45:00.650
ultimately, they they figure out a sustainable, independent funding mechanism that ideally revolves around capitalism, where they're able to make a profit from their project.

660
00:45:01.830 --> 00:45:02.810
I will say

661
00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:04.250
that

662
00:45:05.644 --> 00:45:09.664
I've been shook the last 2, 3 weeks in the this regulatory

663
00:45:09.964 --> 00:45:10.464
environment.

664
00:45:11.085 --> 00:45:14.480
And I don't know if that's necessarily a path that a lot of people

665
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:17.619
can take. I I think,

666
00:45:18.560 --> 00:45:19.060
unfortunately,

667
00:45:19.600 --> 00:45:23.140
monetizing an open source project opens you up to more liability.

668
00:45:24.705 --> 00:45:35.119
That may be a grant, like a no strings attached grant does not necessarily open you up to that liability. So maybe people are gonna be on grants for longer. But I'm just kinda thinking out loud here. Like, that

669
00:45:35.420 --> 00:45:36.559
that was, like, a key

670
00:45:37.660 --> 00:45:39.759
narrative talking point objective

671
00:45:40.059 --> 00:45:43.015
that I had. I mean, in Sparro Wild, it's a perfect example.

672
00:45:44.195 --> 00:45:45.815
Craig never took a grant.

673
00:45:47.075 --> 00:45:48.295
And he has

674
00:45:49.070 --> 00:45:51.010
one of the most powerful important

675
00:45:51.550 --> 00:45:57.650
Bitcoin open source projects in the world in Sparrow Wallet. Like, we literally could not run Open Sats

676
00:45:58.225 --> 00:46:07.040
as well as we run Open Sats, which still has a lot to be desired and we're gonna improve over time, without Sparrow Wallet existing. And but his sustainable funding

677
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:08.400
mechanism,

678
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:09.700
was Whirlpool.

679
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:12.340
And, obviously, he's not getting

680
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:16.740
any kind of revenue off of Whirlpool now. It it actually turned into a liability

681
00:46:17.545 --> 00:46:19.245
for him. So that's just something

682
00:46:19.945 --> 00:46:21.805
that I want the listeners to consider.

683
00:46:22.505 --> 00:46:27.820
Like, maybe in this regulatory environment, open source grants are even more important than they ever were before.

684
00:46:29.240 --> 00:46:32.780
But with all that said, we do have a ride or die freak weirdo robot,

685
00:46:34.515 --> 00:46:37.655
who's so ride or die that he joined the YouTube chat when the Noster

686
00:46:38.115 --> 00:46:40.295
thing broke, when ZapStream broke.

687
00:46:41.315 --> 00:46:43.500
And he has he has a question for you guys.

688
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:45.040
Is there a process,

689
00:46:45.740 --> 00:46:46.240
for

690
00:46:47.180 --> 00:46:49.520
him as a front end impaired moron

691
00:46:50.380 --> 00:46:55.395
to get the Bitcoin design team to look at and suggest improvements work on new projects?

692
00:46:57.935 --> 00:46:58.435
Yes.

693
00:46:59.055 --> 00:46:59.875
So we have

694
00:47:02.090 --> 00:47:05.310
so we we have a design reviews series of calls.

695
00:47:06.010 --> 00:47:07.950
Like I said, the last one was with Mutiny,

696
00:47:08.730 --> 00:47:13.035
Wallet where the team came in, presented their project, and we we talked about design.

697
00:47:13.415 --> 00:47:14.075
And usually,

698
00:47:14.535 --> 00:47:15.435
a bunch of people,

699
00:47:15.975 --> 00:47:18.075
also test the application beforehand,

700
00:47:18.510 --> 00:47:22.130
come up with pair it with screenshots and notes, and then we just talk about it.

701
00:47:22.430 --> 00:47:29.025
So that's, that's and that that is done on demand. So if you if you would like for some people to look at your project, just

702
00:47:29.325 --> 00:47:39.220
either hop in Discord in the design review channel and just ask. Doesn't have to be a call. You just start a conversation there. Usually, some people chip in. Or if you'd like to have a more focused

703
00:47:39.520 --> 00:47:41.619
1 hour session, we can also,

704
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:43.060
organize a call,

705
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:49.465
there. And then you asked the second question where we drove out was when bitcoin design team component library.

706
00:47:50.325 --> 00:47:51.545
So we have bitcoinuikit.comandbitcoinicons.com.

707
00:47:54.390 --> 00:47:56.230
Bitcoin icons are available as a,

708
00:47:56.869 --> 00:48:06.465
view, react, and some other note modules. So you just have all the icons that your Bitcoin app might need. And the Bitcoin UI kit is a Figma file,

709
00:48:06.845 --> 00:48:07.345
and,

710
00:48:07.725 --> 00:48:16.630
some people started building, including Daniel, started building UI libraries around it. There's one done in React Native by a summer of Bitcoin student 2 years ago.

711
00:48:17.090 --> 00:48:19.910
That was the first one, I think, and then there are a couple other ones.

712
00:48:20.785 --> 00:48:22.805
Yep. We have Swift and we have Flutter

713
00:48:24.065 --> 00:48:24.725
as well.

714
00:48:25.025 --> 00:48:28.480
So those are, you know, off the shelf. Just take it and use it,

715
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.220
and now a extra plug for for the

716
00:48:32.080 --> 00:48:41.845
for the icons, which, Christophe has steward a lot. And, they've got lots of great icons in there that you won't find find in, you know, more general icon libraries,

717
00:48:42.539 --> 00:48:42.859
like,

718
00:48:43.660 --> 00:49:03.520
you know, mining related ones or, you know, block time related ones and, other great wallet stuff and some of the some of the hardware devices and stuff. So that's absolutely awesome. And, you know, again, I want to just double double click on the design reviews. You know? They are much more than just like, oh, let's have a look at your

719
00:49:03.820 --> 00:49:10.175
design you know, visual design. It's it's literally like, hey. Come and tell us about your product and what you're trying to achieve. And,

720
00:49:10.655 --> 00:49:11.235
you know,

721
00:49:12.255 --> 00:49:13.075
we often

722
00:49:13.855 --> 00:49:16.515
start out with, like, you know, why

723
00:49:17.455 --> 00:49:20.480
why what what does a user want to achieve when when they

724
00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:24.080
when they start using your product and, you know, help out

725
00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:26.320
also to sometimes clarify,

726
00:49:27.385 --> 00:49:30.345
you know, the the product offering sometimes. You know, you

727
00:49:31.625 --> 00:49:40.180
as a developer, you have all these ideas. They know it's gonna do x, y, and z, and and then it's actually confusing to the user that it does all 3 all 3 things at once. And,

728
00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:42.200
so we often have conversations

729
00:49:42.555 --> 00:49:45.375
around those things before we even start talking about

730
00:49:45.755 --> 00:49:49.600
the flow or the UI and stuff, which we which we

731
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:54.980
Yeah.

732
00:49:56.885 --> 00:50:02.265
Yeah. I like that because it's it feels very actionable. It's like, here is, like, an actual

733
00:50:03.365 --> 00:50:03.865
functioning

734
00:50:04.485 --> 00:50:04.985
product

735
00:50:05.660 --> 00:50:06.880
that people are using.

736
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:14.560
Maybe they're using poorly. And, like, how can we improve it? And even if you're not involved in that specific project, like, you can kinda look at it

737
00:50:15.565 --> 00:50:20.785
and take real world examples from it. It's not it's not theoretical bullshit. Right?

738
00:50:21.809 --> 00:50:35.575
And the and the ideal scenario is that during this this design review call, some designer actually gets interested and maybe starts contributing to the project. We all we all so we always try to talk ended with, you know, how how can we how can someone contribute to it? What are some

739
00:50:35.875 --> 00:50:37.575
what's some stuff that needs work?

740
00:50:38.115 --> 00:50:39.655
What do you guys think about,

741
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:43.420
and I say this

742
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:45.340
in

743
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:48.540
in the most positive optimistic way possible.

744
00:50:49.465 --> 00:50:52.365
What do you guys think about, like, the complaint about designers

745
00:50:52.985 --> 00:50:54.285
that they give you, like,

746
00:50:55.785 --> 00:50:56.765
this gorgeous

747
00:50:57.220 --> 00:50:58.200
Figma breakdown

748
00:50:58.900 --> 00:51:01.880
on, you know, how your app should look.

749
00:51:02.260 --> 00:51:07.785
And then, you know, obviously, they don't have the code to back up, like, actually implementing the thing.

750
00:51:08.244 --> 00:51:09.305
Like, that disconnect

751
00:51:09.845 --> 00:51:12.665
because there is a real disconnect. Talking to to developers

752
00:51:13.330 --> 00:51:16.630
that are building these projects, like, there's a big disconnect between

753
00:51:16.930 --> 00:51:18.710
the guy who posts, you know,

754
00:51:19.410 --> 00:51:25.815
Figma files on Nostra or Twitter. And it's like, this is how this client should look, or this is how this wallet should look,

755
00:51:27.235 --> 00:51:29.415
but doesn't actually provide any

756
00:51:31.410 --> 00:51:35.030
work on on how to actually implement it into the project.

757
00:51:37.170 --> 00:51:41.005
Yeah. I mean, I'm a builder myself, and I I can see both sides.

758
00:51:41.545 --> 00:51:44.845
And you don't get anything good if you don't try

759
00:51:45.545 --> 00:51:55.370
and come at it from sort of both extremes. Right? Like, you know, sometimes you need to put your tech hat on and say, no. No. We absolutely can't compromise on

760
00:51:55.750 --> 00:51:59.290
on this part. Right? It has to has to be like this.

761
00:51:59.895 --> 00:52:03.595
And then some other times, you have to put on the other hand and say, like,

762
00:52:04.135 --> 00:52:04.635
well,

763
00:52:04.935 --> 00:52:15.160
why do I, as a user, even need to know about this little part? You know, that I don't care about that thing. And then somehow it's a back and forth until you you marry the two things

764
00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:18.244
so that the user feels great

765
00:52:18.625 --> 00:52:19.444
using it.

766
00:52:20.224 --> 00:52:24.325
And, you know, great if it looks nice too. But like I I keep thinking about

767
00:52:24.950 --> 00:52:28.250
design as, like, getting the user to where they wanna be

768
00:52:28.550 --> 00:52:31.610
with with the least friction and confusion as possible

769
00:52:32.555 --> 00:52:36.015
while the tech being solid. Right? So I don't think there's

770
00:52:37.035 --> 00:52:42.790
there's no great product without the sort of, like, designer that is trying to reach a little bit too far,

771
00:52:43.490 --> 00:52:43.990
and,

772
00:52:44.530 --> 00:52:51.595
engineer that's trying to push a little bit too far on that side. Right? And then, ideally, they stand each other long enough to

773
00:52:52.055 --> 00:52:54.555
to to to have sort of 5

774
00:52:55.174 --> 00:52:56.154
5 to 10

775
00:52:56.460 --> 00:52:59.520
times back and forth, and that's where you get the great product from.

776
00:53:00.700 --> 00:53:10.155
Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll just I'll just chime in with my origin story here. So the reason why I got into Monero was that I didn't understand any of this stuff at all. I'd never used a wallet.

777
00:53:10.615 --> 00:53:17.460
And one evening, my wife and son were sleeping. I was like, I'm gonna try out a crypto wallet. What what am I even using?

778
00:53:17.839 --> 00:53:21.965
And on Twitter, someone said, well, Panera seems cool. So I thought, okay.

779
00:53:22.445 --> 00:53:28.945
I'll try that one. I downloaded and I it was downloading blocks. I had no idea what was going on. So I sat there and was just gonna wait

780
00:53:29.369 --> 00:53:37.345
until all the blocks are downloaded, whatever. There was 1 and a half 1000000 blocks or whatever it was where I I thought it was gonna take 2 minutes. Right? How long can it take?

781
00:53:38.065 --> 00:53:44.645
So I sat there and I got bored and I just started out. I'll just put this in sketch at the time, just redesign it. Then it was like 2 AM

782
00:53:45.059 --> 00:53:53.400
and it still it still wasn't done. So I thought I need to go to bed. But what I'm gonna do with this, I'll post it on Reddit. And I thought, hey. I just made this. What do you think?

783
00:53:54.065 --> 00:53:58.485
It is literally the thing that you just described. Someone just decide to decide something.

784
00:53:59.345 --> 00:54:00.705
But then what happened was that,

785
00:54:01.359 --> 00:54:08.405
one of the developers reached out and said, hey. We wanna implement this. Come on IRC. And I, like, I didn't even know how to get on IRC.

786
00:54:08.885 --> 00:54:10.825
But, they basically helped me,

787
00:54:11.365 --> 00:54:16.829
and I thought this is cool. Like, let let's do it. If you if you if you wanna do this, I'm bound for it.

788
00:54:17.369 --> 00:54:19.210
So it was really just reaching out,

789
00:54:19.530 --> 00:54:36.180
to make that connection and help me help get me on board. Like, I didn't understand what the addresses looked like, any of this. I knew how to style But you, like, straight up gave them, like, a Figma like, this is what it should look like. It was just it was just a restyling. It wasn't even don't know. I don't think it was that crazy. But

790
00:54:36.720 --> 00:54:38.900
the that it happened to be a time.

791
00:54:39.200 --> 00:54:42.339
So the timing happened to be great because there was a

792
00:54:42.785 --> 00:54:54.560
very talented, super nice front end developer who wanted to start contributing. He was looking for something, and it was the right time. He was eager. He pulled me in. I was ready to go, and then we started working on this together.

793
00:54:55.020 --> 00:55:00.744
But he really he brought me in, and he explained everything to me, and he was very patient with all my dumb questions.

794
00:55:02.325 --> 00:55:06.654
So I think I think this can be a great starting point. Sometimes these things are just

795
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:26.635
designers just love to express themselves just like developers do little tech demos and proof of concepts. Designers just just make stuff sometimes and it's a great way to express yourself and you can just just capture this and just say, like, yeah. I'd love this. It's just an idea. Right? You're not even you're not that invested on it, but it puts a stake in the ground. And it's a good con it's a conversation

796
00:55:27.370 --> 00:55:29.070
starter. And then it's up to

797
00:55:29.610 --> 00:55:34.095
it's up to whoever sees it to to, you know, laugh at it or think it's

798
00:55:34.415 --> 00:55:48.300
silly they can't build it or to say this is cool. Let's let's make it happen. How why don't you join us and and we'll make something. And it's might it's it's likely not gonna be the same thing that like, the first draft. Everything has to be get iterated,

799
00:55:48.600 --> 00:55:49.500
and there's a process.

800
00:55:49.885 --> 00:55:59.585
And it has to be broken down over time into a tiny little pass. There's gonna be issues that people can do occasionally here and there. And that's something I learned too. I I designed stuff and

801
00:55:59.890 --> 00:56:02.310
created issues. And then, like, 3 years later, they

802
00:56:03.010 --> 00:56:12.435
they got implemented. Someone put it live. But I learned to appreciate that process too because it wasn't the state to day pressure. To do It's definitely a slower process, right, with open projects.

803
00:56:12.974 --> 00:56:13.474
Yeah.

804
00:56:13.855 --> 00:56:22.240
But I just think it's important to Yeah. Go ahead. It's important to not shut the conversation down. Right? Like, if if you're, if you're an engineer

805
00:56:22.859 --> 00:56:27.325
or developer working on a project and someone, you know, drops a redesign on on you,

806
00:56:27.865 --> 00:56:29.405
it's easy to feel like,

807
00:56:30.025 --> 00:56:33.244
what's going on here? Right? I'm not even gonna engage. But

808
00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:38.320
it's important to not shut it down because you are literally getting

809
00:56:38.700 --> 00:56:39.200
someone's,

810
00:56:39.980 --> 00:56:41.120
valuable feedback.

811
00:56:41.580 --> 00:56:43.440
You know, not all of it might be

812
00:56:43.775 --> 00:56:44.994
great, but, like,

813
00:56:45.615 --> 00:56:48.755
you can ask yourself, like, why? Why why did they feel

814
00:56:49.214 --> 00:56:53.920
that they wanted to, you know, spend time doing this is probably because because they care.

815
00:56:54.299 --> 00:56:55.440
And then you can see

816
00:56:56.220 --> 00:56:56.720
beyond

817
00:56:57.020 --> 00:56:57.760
the actual,

818
00:56:58.675 --> 00:57:01.815
you know, flat Figma file and say, like, okay.

819
00:57:02.155 --> 00:57:02.655
What

820
00:57:02.995 --> 00:57:13.579
was the problem that they were trying to fix? And, you know, have I got a better idea, or is their idea better? And the same thing with designers. You know? If they come up with the design and the

821
00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:15.420
engineers sort of

822
00:57:17.744 --> 00:57:19.204
have, you know,

823
00:57:19.665 --> 00:57:20.165
ideas

824
00:57:20.545 --> 00:57:22.885
to improve that. You know, the designer shouldn't

825
00:57:23.329 --> 00:57:27.750
shut that down and say, nope. Design it. This is how it should be. Right? Like, it's normally,

826
00:57:29.250 --> 00:57:31.750
value to be had in that back and forth.

827
00:57:36.165 --> 00:57:37.865
I don't mean to break the conversation,

828
00:57:38.165 --> 00:57:42.585
but our nostril livestream is working again. Nice. There we go.

829
00:57:43.569 --> 00:57:45.349
There we go. We figured it out live.

830
00:57:46.690 --> 00:57:54.375
And we're back. I'm gonna leave the YouTube chat up for now while you guys transition over to the nostril stream because I appreciate you guys

831
00:57:55.714 --> 00:57:57.655
going on to Google and and

832
00:57:58.115 --> 00:58:02.920
and participating. It's this show is special because of our live chat. Okay.

833
00:58:03.620 --> 00:58:04.360
We have

834
00:58:07.355 --> 00:58:09.454
a couple things to break down there.

835
00:58:09.915 --> 00:58:13.535
First of all, I really like I I really like the framing by Daniel

836
00:58:13.835 --> 00:58:15.055
of extremes.

837
00:58:16.300 --> 00:58:26.385
I mean, you have, like, 2 extremes just, like, smash into each other. Right? You got, like, the engineer extreme, and you have the design extreme. And then hopefully like the product in the middle

838
00:58:27.005 --> 00:58:27.825
comes together.

839
00:58:28.285 --> 00:58:28.685
And,

840
00:58:29.085 --> 00:58:31.265
it's it's like an iron sharpens iron.

841
00:58:32.660 --> 00:58:37.000
That's how a lot of amazing things are built. Right? That that that's how it happens.

842
00:58:39.615 --> 00:58:43.075
That's fucking awesome. I like that framing. I think that's really good framing.

843
00:58:43.375 --> 00:58:45.315
Very positive, optimistic framing.

844
00:58:45.934 --> 00:58:47.155
But I like that framing.

845
00:58:47.810 --> 00:58:49.590
And then what Christophe mentioned,

846
00:58:50.450 --> 00:58:53.190
I'm actually gonna hide the YouTube chat now because

847
00:58:53.570 --> 00:58:57.315
let's make this chat big so people can actually read what's going on.

848
00:58:59.234 --> 00:58:59.734
The

849
00:59:01.875 --> 00:59:04.295
what what Christophe mentioned, which is really interesting,

850
00:59:04.869 --> 00:59:06.650
is like, actually, like, understanding

851
00:59:07.349 --> 00:59:09.769
the the designers need to understand

852
00:59:12.125 --> 00:59:13.425
what they're building for.

853
00:59:13.805 --> 00:59:15.025
And I I think

854
00:59:15.325 --> 00:59:16.465
with open sets,

855
00:59:17.245 --> 00:59:22.700
like, the dichotomy I obviously like, I keep coming back to, like, what I focus on, right, which is OpenSats.

856
00:59:23.720 --> 00:59:28.780
And with OpenSats, it was important for us that it's, like, it's Bitcoin for a better world.

857
00:59:29.335 --> 00:59:30.155
It's not necessarily

858
00:59:30.535 --> 00:59:31.515
Bitcoin specific.

859
00:59:32.615 --> 00:59:33.115
And

860
00:59:33.415 --> 00:59:35.195
we hold our treasury in Bitcoin.

861
00:59:35.655 --> 00:59:37.595
All grants are paid out in Bitcoin.

862
00:59:38.819 --> 00:59:39.640
But, presumably,

863
00:59:39.940 --> 00:59:42.119
like, if we actually pull this thing off,

864
00:59:42.900 --> 00:59:43.400
like,

865
00:59:44.020 --> 00:59:48.359
OpenSAT should support all open source contributors because I think

866
00:59:49.095 --> 00:59:49.835
all FreedomTech

867
00:59:50.775 --> 00:59:55.195
is complementary to each other. It doesn't matter if it's Bitcoin specific,

868
00:59:56.180 --> 01:00:01.880
as long as the grant recipient is willing to figure out how to receive Bitcoin because we're not gonna pay them in dollars.

869
01:00:02.420 --> 01:00:07.265
So they they have to receive Bitcoin, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Bitcoin specific. And obviously,

870
01:00:08.285 --> 01:00:09.585
the carve out is

871
01:00:11.405 --> 01:00:19.329
look. We got Kieran in the live chat saying, wow. It works. He I I don't know if he did anything. And he just he's he's amazed his product is working.

872
01:00:20.829 --> 01:00:21.329
We,

873
01:00:23.011 --> 01:00:26.605
it it we have a carve out that's like no shitcoin projects,

874
01:00:27.065 --> 01:00:30.980
but like a tour. Right? Or a simplex. Right? Like

875
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:32.260
a decentralized

876
01:00:32.560 --> 01:00:33.460
signal competitor

877
01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:37.940
for for encrypted messaging. Like, it doesn't have to necessarily have Bitcoin in it.

878
01:00:38.765 --> 01:00:40.785
We will still support it with Bitcoin.

879
01:00:41.085 --> 01:00:43.725
Right? Which is why the name is Open Sats. It's not

880
01:00:44.845 --> 01:00:48.920
I mean, I'm not gonna the Bitcoin Foundation is a horrible fucking organization.

881
01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:54.515
We're trying to be like the anti Bitcoin Foundation. But my point is is, like, OpenSats is quite broad.

882
01:00:55.075 --> 01:00:58.135
Now with the Bitcoin Design Foundation, I think

883
01:00:58.515 --> 01:01:01.530
and correct me if I'm wrong based off of Christophe's comments.

884
01:01:02.330 --> 01:01:04.350
Like, I think there's something special here

885
01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:06.910
that it is very,

886
01:01:08.890 --> 01:01:09.390
focused.

887
01:01:10.155 --> 01:01:14.335
That that the idea is that the designers are actually Bitcoin users.

888
01:01:14.795 --> 01:01:16.494
They actually use these products.

889
01:01:17.195 --> 01:01:17.930
So, like,

890
01:01:18.410 --> 01:01:20.430
this whole idea of a

891
01:01:21.450 --> 01:01:23.309
mock up that is completely

892
01:01:23.770 --> 01:01:29.985
devoid of reality, that just looks pretty from a designer's point of view, is probably a lesser risk

893
01:01:31.885 --> 01:01:32.625
in your

894
01:01:32.925 --> 01:01:33.425
community

895
01:01:34.390 --> 01:01:47.835
because those users are Bitcoiners. They're actually holding their private keys. They're using multisig. They're they're they're playing with these things and and trying to make them work. And so they understand where the engineers are coming from. Would is that a correct

896
01:01:48.935 --> 01:01:49.435
assessment?

897
01:01:52.859 --> 01:01:54.559
Yeah. For sure. For sure.

898
01:01:55.020 --> 01:01:57.119
I mean, yeah, we you know, with the

899
01:01:57.740 --> 01:02:02.465
the thing is is these design explorations, they kinda make sense at a certain point in projects. Like

900
01:02:02.925 --> 01:02:04.765
when, what was it for

901
01:02:05.885 --> 01:02:08.065
like, for example, we helped create the the LDK

902
01:02:08.605 --> 01:02:10.785
logo. And right now with Bitcoin layers,

903
01:02:11.450 --> 01:02:14.270
there's there's a time where you're just gonna go broad

904
01:02:14.650 --> 01:02:16.589
or even with was it Zeus?

905
01:02:17.369 --> 01:02:18.990
Yeah. There was a Zeus logo,

906
01:02:19.835 --> 01:02:24.895
or branding session at the time when Bosch was around. He he worked a lot on the Zeus,

907
01:02:26.154 --> 01:02:27.375
design, the whole UX.

908
01:02:28.210 --> 01:02:39.435
There's a time when you just wanna go wild. There's a, like, this discovery phase, right, when you're just trying to establish a brand or a general look of something. But that's a that's just a small part. And once that's kind of settled,

909
01:02:39.735 --> 01:02:41.595
you know, you spend a lot more time

910
01:02:41.895 --> 01:02:43.115
when you're really down,

911
01:02:43.415 --> 01:02:51.060
you know, on the ground working with the specific functionality and trying to work through it and trying to make sure it all follows all the different,

912
01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:54.500
Bitcoin principles, self custody, and interoperability,

913
01:02:55.120 --> 01:02:59.585
and and all of those all of those security and privacy things as well.

914
01:02:59.965 --> 01:03:04.390
So yeah, there's a there's a time for it, but I think it's a smallish

915
01:03:05.170 --> 01:03:06.230
part of the

916
01:03:06.690 --> 01:03:08.150
usually of all the activity.

917
01:03:10.755 --> 01:03:15.095
Yeah. I mean, I think it's really cool that there it's like Bitcoin users trying to design

918
01:03:17.234 --> 01:03:18.454
better Bitcoin tools.

919
01:03:19.940 --> 01:03:22.920
Like, that is that is special. That is I mean,

920
01:03:23.300 --> 01:03:25.560
open source projects open source protocols

921
01:03:26.660 --> 01:03:29.400
do not usually have that kind of dedication and focus.

922
01:03:29.975 --> 01:03:31.755
There's there's something to be said there.

923
01:03:32.695 --> 01:03:35.755
Yeah. I think it it's very similar actually to the to the developer

924
01:03:36.215 --> 01:03:41.720
open source you know, the open source developers that work on Bitcoin things, often protocols or

925
01:03:42.580 --> 01:03:43.880
SDKs or toolkits,

926
01:03:44.340 --> 01:03:49.480
a bit lower down the stack, and then you have the sort of the wallet or the product layer.

927
01:03:50.085 --> 01:03:50.585
But,

928
01:03:52.085 --> 01:03:57.464
you know, a lot of them are users, obviously, of Bitcoin products, and we are just the the designers

929
01:03:58.060 --> 01:04:01.680
that also use those products and want them to be better and notice

930
01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:02.960
what's not there.

931
01:04:04.540 --> 01:04:05.420
You know, and I've

932
01:04:05.955 --> 01:04:08.215
part of me has also been building

933
01:04:09.315 --> 01:04:16.330
the one of the reference designs that we have in the in the Bitcoin design guide, the sort of daily spending wallet. I've been using LDK node,

934
01:04:17.830 --> 01:04:27.085
and building a mobile wallet for that. So, you know, I'm often in that as well asking stupid questions like, you know, how do I do this or how do I do that? And then,

935
01:04:27.785 --> 01:04:32.030
you know, sometimes the answer has been like, oh, yeah. You can't do that yet. And then

936
01:04:32.650 --> 01:04:34.990
I asked them, you know, can we please make that possible?

937
01:04:35.610 --> 01:04:36.330
So I think,

938
01:04:36.970 --> 01:04:38.510
you know, having a different

939
01:04:39.005 --> 01:04:39.505
angle,

940
01:04:40.685 --> 01:04:46.945
and dipping into the to the developer chats is also valuable, you know, because I kind of think from the

941
01:04:47.579 --> 01:04:48.079
user

942
01:04:48.540 --> 01:04:52.400
action first. Right? Like, you know, I want to come into my wallet and see

943
01:04:52.859 --> 01:04:56.240
all my transactions both on chain and on lightning

944
01:04:56.755 --> 01:05:08.000
in the correct time order. It turns out that there's no there's no date stamp yet in the transaction, so I can't do it. You know, things like that that hopefully helps them also,

945
01:05:09.180 --> 01:05:10.080
you know, improve

946
01:05:10.620 --> 01:05:11.520
the tech stack.

947
01:05:12.575 --> 01:05:15.235
Yeah. And I wanted to also say that we we

948
01:05:15.935 --> 01:05:22.010
earlier this year so what we have this series called learning bitcoin and design where we try to take tech technical topics

949
01:05:22.550 --> 01:05:24.570
and just have very simple top level,

950
01:05:24.950 --> 01:05:27.930
you know, kind of intro calls for designers specifically.

951
01:05:28.485 --> 01:05:30.185
So earlier this year, we had,

952
01:05:31.365 --> 01:05:31.865
covenants,

953
01:05:33.045 --> 01:05:35.545
2 calls on that one because it was quite complex,

954
01:05:35.980 --> 01:05:40.160
then time based recovery or these, recovery paths using mini script,

955
01:05:40.460 --> 01:05:42.000
silent payments, and frost.

956
01:05:42.619 --> 01:05:52.605
And those things are just to get kind of the general basic ideas and use cases and the potential things we will be able to do them if we just build the right products,

957
01:05:53.400 --> 01:06:00.220
right, just to get those out into designers and builders heads in a simple way with not necessarily about the technical details

958
01:06:00.520 --> 01:06:03.385
of exactly how it works, but more with an eye

959
01:06:03.765 --> 01:06:06.025
on, what uses it actually enables.

960
01:06:06.405 --> 01:06:17.930
And then hopefully, you know, people can build on top of that and and start coming up with with ways like covenants was a huge discussion. I mean, no one even knows what scope with all these different proposals, what's going to be built.

961
01:06:18.789 --> 01:06:20.730
And then in the end, it sounds like,

962
01:06:21.190 --> 01:06:26.695
you know, biggest use case might actually just be, you know, lightning scaling through these,

963
01:06:27.655 --> 01:06:28.555
what are they called,

964
01:06:29.680 --> 01:06:30.900
payment channels?

965
01:06:31.680 --> 01:06:34.260
No. Channel factories. Channel factories. Yep.

966
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:37.780
And and some things like that. So

967
01:06:38.125 --> 01:06:42.945
we we try to be pretty much on top of where the tech is going,

968
01:06:43.805 --> 01:06:47.960
and then just kind of facilitate and speed up the process to

969
01:06:48.260 --> 01:06:49.320
to getting to

970
01:06:49.780 --> 01:07:02.305
products that not just technically minded people who attend these calls can use, but to get them really to a broad audience. But I think that is that is a that is more longer perspective that will take months years for that to really play out

971
01:07:03.250 --> 01:07:04.630
until that's the case.

972
01:07:06.770 --> 01:07:09.270
First of all, shout out to wartime psychopath,

973
01:07:10.610 --> 01:07:11.110
for

974
01:07:13.055 --> 01:07:14.515
getting his zap in while

975
01:07:15.135 --> 01:07:18.515
the while the Nazir stream worked. I'm just troubleshooting on the fly.

976
01:07:19.135 --> 01:07:22.050
Because that's we're in open source land. We're in Freedom Tech land.

977
01:07:23.250 --> 01:07:24.550
We're gonna make it work.

978
01:07:24.930 --> 01:07:26.210
But there's always

979
01:07:27.435 --> 01:07:29.615
usually the major trade off is

980
01:07:30.155 --> 01:07:31.375
1, personal responsibility.

981
01:07:31.755 --> 01:07:32.255
2,

982
01:07:32.635 --> 01:07:33.775
rough around the edges

983
01:07:34.315 --> 01:07:36.655
compared to the slave take slave

984
01:07:37.780 --> 01:07:38.840
tech alternatives.

985
01:07:42.660 --> 01:07:45.480
Christophe, don't focus too much of your time on

986
01:07:46.615 --> 01:07:47.435
soft fork

987
01:07:48.135 --> 01:07:49.275
required designs.

988
01:07:50.295 --> 01:07:52.795
Like, I mean, maybe we'll get covenants. But

989
01:07:53.510 --> 01:07:54.490
maybe we won't.

990
01:07:54.950 --> 01:07:56.250
You know? I mean, I

991
01:07:57.349 --> 01:07:59.530
I I will say as someone who is

992
01:08:01.345 --> 01:08:04.885
has focused a lot of his time on education. I focused

993
01:08:05.185 --> 01:08:07.125
a shit ton of fucking time in education.

994
01:08:07.505 --> 01:08:09.685
I just until something gets merged,

995
01:08:10.470 --> 01:08:13.370
you will get nothing from me. Like, I am not,

996
01:08:15.110 --> 01:08:17.290
I try not even to talk about covenants.

997
01:08:18.310 --> 01:08:18.710
I I

998
01:08:19.755 --> 01:08:20.655
it's a potential.

999
01:08:21.275 --> 01:08:23.695
You know, I will talk about it in a potential sense.

1000
01:08:24.555 --> 01:08:26.575
But it's you know, time is scarce and

1001
01:08:27.780 --> 01:08:35.240
who the fuck knows? Like Yeah. You know, earlier this year so there's obviously all this discussion around fees that that started happening,

1002
01:08:35.700 --> 01:08:43.725
or that became more urgent than everyone's mind. So I I was trying to and I asked a lot of people at different con conferences earlier this year. So

1003
01:08:44.100 --> 01:09:01.730
first of all, you know, the idea of scaling to 8,000,000,000 people. Like, what do we mean by scaling? Some people say, well, scaling Bitcoin means, like, we improve the tech, we enable more stuff, But then you're asking, well, what are we enabling and who for and what are they gonna do? Are we enabling the wrong thing or things that no one cares about? So what are we shooting for?

1004
01:09:02.430 --> 01:09:05.090
So if you mean by scaling, do we mean 8,000,000,000 people?

1005
01:09:05.630 --> 01:09:07.330
Probably not because only 5,300,000,000

1006
01:09:07.870 --> 01:09:09.890
are people so actually have an Internet connection.

1007
01:09:10.344 --> 01:09:11.565
And then 26%

1008
01:09:11.945 --> 01:09:12.605
of people

1009
01:09:13.145 --> 01:09:14.045
are under

1010
01:09:14.505 --> 01:09:17.565
14, I think. So a 3 year old doesn't need a UTXO.

1011
01:09:18.240 --> 01:09:24.320
So what are we at? 3,000,000,000 people or something like that. Like, you can whittle it down to some reasonable number. I didn't really

1012
01:09:25.040 --> 01:09:25.540
Sorry?

1013
01:09:25.885 --> 01:09:28.145
I didn't realize that many people were under 14.

1014
01:09:28.925 --> 01:09:42.309
Yeah. I think it's 24, 20 like, I I have a whole Google doc here or using Google product. But, I need a Nostra doc. Where are my Nostra I saw Nostra spreadsheets are a thing now. The Google Docs are fine. I just look at this. It's not private information.

1015
01:09:42.815 --> 01:09:47.635
Yeah. Well, I tried to to think to think through this because I wanted to know,

1016
01:09:48.175 --> 01:09:52.640
like, if if we need we if we if we're in the foundation, if we're working on projects,

1017
01:09:53.020 --> 01:09:55.040
I would like to have an informed opinion

1018
01:09:55.580 --> 01:10:00.000
about what we actually need to focus our time on, like you said, because time is precious.

1019
01:10:00.685 --> 01:10:07.105
And, so I try to figure out from both perspectives, like, what what where is the tech heading and what are we trying to achieve?

1020
01:10:07.440 --> 01:10:11.619
What use cases do we wanna achieve? Like, how many UTXOs do we need? Or is it

1021
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:17.345
gonna be, you know, unchained lightning and e cash? Or what about all this layer 2 stuff, which

1022
01:10:18.545 --> 01:10:19.205
who knows

1023
01:10:19.905 --> 01:10:23.605
what that's gonna be? But I I'd like to have a an opinion

1024
01:10:25.320 --> 01:10:31.659
and to just kind of feel that there's like a tree of options that can unfold in front of us with all kind of different scenarios.

1025
01:10:32.115 --> 01:10:35.735
And there are some some twigs that you can probably just cut off because they're nonsense.

1026
01:10:36.115 --> 01:10:38.295
And then there's a range of things that are

1027
01:10:38.595 --> 01:10:44.300
more likely to happen than others. And I would just I just kinda wanna have a sense for that. So I do think having

1028
01:10:45.480 --> 01:10:47.180
understanding some of the tech

1029
01:10:47.745 --> 01:10:53.925
that might be coming up is kind of important, but also have this other perspective of what are we actually trying to

1030
01:10:54.225 --> 01:10:57.430
achieve, what are we How many people are under 14?

1031
01:10:59.010 --> 01:11:01.670
Let me pull up my my Google doc here.

1032
01:11:02.125 --> 01:11:02.525
And,

1033
01:11:03.085 --> 01:11:05.985
because I like big numbers, so I always say we're building for 8,000,000,000.

1034
01:11:07.485 --> 01:11:11.105
Yeah. And while Christophe pulls up the actual number, I mean,

1035
01:11:11.780 --> 01:11:12.520
I can,

1036
01:11:12.900 --> 01:11:20.600
you know, we we in the community or at least sort of the the me personally, I've always been very focused on, like, you know, the individual and

1037
01:11:21.205 --> 01:11:34.470
having any individual on on the planet that that wants to use Bitcoin should be able to use it and ideally in a self custodial way with fees not being prohibitive. Right? And I think that's that's a discussion we've had a lot in the last

1038
01:11:35.010 --> 01:11:38.070
6 months or so, like, where we thought, oh,

1039
01:11:38.450 --> 01:11:39.110
you know,

1040
01:11:40.605 --> 01:11:47.585
self custodial lightning nodes is the way forward. It's gonna solve everything. And then we realized, like, oh, yeah. Opening channels and

1041
01:11:47.885 --> 01:11:52.449
whatnot, even if you can do it with just in time channels and stuff, that's a huge fee,

1042
01:11:52.830 --> 01:11:53.650
which is,

1043
01:11:54.030 --> 01:12:04.565
you know, you can feel it a little bit if you're you live in the US or Europe. But if you, you know, if you live in Africa, it's just like, why would I do that? It doesn't make any sense.

1044
01:12:04.945 --> 01:12:06.165
So that opens another,

1045
01:12:06.864 --> 01:12:08.725
you know, aspect to the scaling

1046
01:12:09.969 --> 01:12:10.869
scaling discussion.

1047
01:12:11.889 --> 01:12:16.150
It's not even where where it is. It's not even necessarily the cost of the fee.

1048
01:12:16.565 --> 01:12:19.945
I mean, you wanna talk about one of the biggest UX hurdles in Bitcoin.

1049
01:12:21.525 --> 01:12:22.265
It's grokking.

1050
01:12:22.645 --> 01:12:23.545
It's understanding,

1051
01:12:24.300 --> 01:12:26.960
like, how on chain fees work. Because

1052
01:12:27.980 --> 01:12:30.560
everything in our lives is based on amount

1053
01:12:30.940 --> 01:12:37.165
and a percent of the amount, which is how lightning fees are based, which are are relatively easy, I think, for

1054
01:12:37.465 --> 01:12:38.925
pre corners to understand.

1055
01:12:39.385 --> 01:12:40.525
You know, I send $1,000

1056
01:12:41.280 --> 01:12:42.980
and I pay a 1% fee.

1057
01:12:43.360 --> 01:12:46.660
And that fee scales with the amount I send.

1058
01:12:48.295 --> 01:12:52.235
But with on chain fees, it's the data sent. So I can send

1059
01:12:52.855 --> 01:12:53.355
$10,000,000

1060
01:12:54.215 --> 01:12:55.594
or I can send $50,

1061
01:12:56.630 --> 01:12:58.409
and it could be the same fee.

1062
01:12:58.869 --> 01:13:01.290
And what should my fee choice be?

1063
01:13:01.750 --> 01:13:02.730
What, you know,

1064
01:13:03.764 --> 01:13:06.585
what like, how how should I even think about it

1065
01:13:07.045 --> 01:13:07.784
is a

1066
01:13:08.085 --> 01:13:08.585
incredibly

1067
01:13:09.605 --> 01:13:10.105
instrumental,

1068
01:13:10.965 --> 01:13:11.465
foundational,

1069
01:13:12.005 --> 01:13:13.224
unsolved problem

1070
01:13:13.670 --> 01:13:18.250
of Bitcoin design, I think, for apps. It's like, I I don't I have no

1071
01:13:18.630 --> 01:13:21.370
no fucking idea how to explain that to pre corners,

1072
01:13:22.035 --> 01:13:25.015
Except for the fact, like, I go into, like, a long

1073
01:13:26.355 --> 01:13:28.375
diatribe about, like, UTXOs

1074
01:13:28.915 --> 01:13:29.350
and

1075
01:13:29.910 --> 01:13:31.930
inputs and outputs and

1076
01:13:32.950 --> 01:13:36.890
future fee burden and all this shit. It's like, oh, you could have spent

1077
01:13:37.495 --> 01:13:40.475
$20 to send that transaction into your wallet.

1078
01:13:41.015 --> 01:13:42.795
And then when you wanna send it out,

1079
01:13:43.655 --> 01:13:50.140
who knows what that fee is? Because that's gonna be based on a free market. It's like it's a crazy it's a crazy problem to solve.

1080
01:13:51.239 --> 01:14:07.220
I'm fairly optimistic that we can, you know, with with well designed products, I think people can get over that hurdle. It's like, okay. You know, I have money. I wanna send money. It costs a little bit. Sometimes it costs more or less. But if you if you communicate that well in the product, I think that's solvable.

1081
01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:09.920
But if you then move on to a world where, like,

1082
01:14:11.280 --> 01:14:15.435
you tell someone, like, okay. I want I wanna send you money,

1083
01:14:17.335 --> 01:14:18.795
but you gotta pay first

1084
01:14:20.330 --> 01:14:23.070
before you can receive the money. That that's a lot harder,

1085
01:14:24.010 --> 01:14:26.350
in most people's view and that they you know,

1086
01:14:26.890 --> 01:14:27.630
the answer

1087
01:14:28.045 --> 01:14:40.400
to most of that would be like, why would I do that? That sounds like a scam. So you're talking about, like, inbound liquidity. Right? Like Yeah. It's you know, without without on self solving. Getting into technical stuff, people, like, you know, get the

1088
01:14:40.700 --> 01:14:42.240
Nigerian prince email

1089
01:14:42.860 --> 01:14:44.535
and say, you know, I got $10,000

1090
01:14:44.915 --> 01:14:47.335
for you, but you gotta send me 2,000 first.

1091
01:14:49.555 --> 01:14:57.140
Anyway, Christophe, what did you find inside the numbers? Well, I was just gonna say Jeremy here had a comment about how his, what is it for and

1092
01:14:57.920 --> 01:14:59.940
what is it? 7 year olds have UTXOs?

1093
01:15:01.074 --> 01:15:06.454
Isn't it so great, by the way, the Nostril live chat? Like, it the show really gets hurt when

1094
01:15:06.835 --> 01:15:09.175
Kieran drops the ball. I love you, Kieran.

1095
01:15:10.390 --> 01:15:14.969
So my son also has gotten his allowance in Bitcoin for Yeah. Why are you discriminating,

1096
01:15:16.515 --> 01:15:21.975
14 and under? Like, I think a 12 year old should be able to hold a UTXO. Like, what what the fuck, Christophe?

1097
01:15:22.355 --> 01:15:22.855
K.

1098
01:15:24.020 --> 01:15:30.760
Well, cool. Alright. Then, you know, we just use okay. So 8,000,000,000 people, 26% under 15. There are 5,920,000,000

1099
01:15:31.460 --> 01:15:33.000
adults that are 15 plus.

1100
01:15:33.675 --> 01:15:34.175
So

1101
01:15:34.555 --> 01:15:38.815
5,300,000,000 Internet users. So you just use whichever number you feel is appropriate

1102
01:15:39.435 --> 01:15:40.735
to talk about scaling.

1103
01:15:41.570 --> 01:15:52.574
And, one other thing that I actually wanna do in here Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. So what do we have? We have 5,900,000,000 Internet users. Yep. Okay. So that's probably 55,300,000,000

1104
01:15:53.195 --> 01:15:54.415
Internet users. 5,900,000,000

1105
01:15:54.955 --> 01:15:56.735
adults. Okay. So 5,300,000,000

1106
01:15:57.994 --> 01:16:01.230
Internet users is the, like, the top end number.

1107
01:16:02.170 --> 01:16:05.849
That is if you don't include AI agents, which apparently are all gonna use,

1108
01:16:06.489 --> 01:16:08.190
Bitcoin as well, aren't they?

1109
01:16:09.215 --> 01:16:10.435
Tabith, they're not people.

1110
01:16:11.535 --> 01:16:14.435
True. They don't need good design. They just need, like,

1111
01:16:14.975 --> 01:16:17.460
good command line interface, and they're good.

1112
01:16:19.940 --> 01:16:20.440
Yep.

1113
01:16:21.460 --> 01:16:29.335
So another question I had in here, I was actually thinking about, well, what's the ultimate goal? And then I was thinking about what is the minimum viable scale.

1114
01:16:29.715 --> 01:16:33.815
Like, what percentage do we need for Bitcoin to remain its properties

1115
01:16:34.120 --> 01:16:35.020
of being decentralized,

1116
01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:36.220
permissionless,

1117
01:16:37.080 --> 01:16:39.660
all of the stuff where people have their exit route,

1118
01:16:40.040 --> 01:16:41.260
unilateral exit

1119
01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:49.265
up to and, you know, like, what's the minimum need for Bitcoin to remain Bitcoin? Is it 5% of the population? Is it 3%

1120
01:16:49.805 --> 01:16:53.105
in self custody? Is it amount? Like, what is that?

1121
01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:56.660
And maybe if we can define that at least then we know, like,

1122
01:16:57.360 --> 01:17:03.055
you know, it are we at least on the minimum track we need to achieve in terms of adoption

1123
01:17:03.995 --> 01:17:04.655
and scaling?

1124
01:17:06.635 --> 01:17:07.775
Yeah. I don't know.

1125
01:17:08.955 --> 01:17:09.595
We have

1126
01:17:10.700 --> 01:17:14.480
So I'm actually reading the YouTube chat, which I usually don't, Matthew d.

1127
01:17:15.100 --> 01:17:20.625
So if you really want your comment to be answered, it should be in the nostril chat. Acyl dispatch dotcom/stream

1128
01:17:21.165 --> 01:17:22.305
since it works now.

1129
01:17:23.405 --> 01:17:23.905
But

1130
01:17:24.925 --> 01:17:30.710
Matthew says people saying everyone needs to own the UTXO are projecting the fiat reality onto bitcoin.

1131
01:17:32.210 --> 01:17:33.989
First of all, I wanna push back

1132
01:17:36.130 --> 01:17:37.510
on bitcoiners using

1133
01:17:38.875 --> 01:17:39.375
fiat

1134
01:17:39.915 --> 01:17:42.095
as a term to denigrate other bitcoiners.

1135
01:17:43.115 --> 01:17:45.535
You're welcome to do it and there's free speech.

1136
01:17:46.610 --> 01:17:48.870
But, like, fuck you. Like, I

1137
01:17:49.330 --> 01:17:51.030
I I do not have a fiat mindset.

1138
01:17:52.770 --> 01:17:56.465
I think it's important. I think I think it's structurally important

1139
01:17:57.325 --> 01:18:00.945
for as many Bitcoiners as as many people as possible

1140
01:18:02.045 --> 01:18:11.910
to use Bitcoin in a self sovereign way. I think that is your focus as a foundation. I think it's one of our focuses at Open Sats. I think it's one of my focuses as an individual.

1141
01:18:15.075 --> 01:18:19.495
As the good Lord, Satoshi said, trusted third parties are security holes.

1142
01:18:20.275 --> 01:18:26.110
And I don't wanna necessarily worship Satoshi. I think he was wrong about a lot of things. Not a perfect person.

1143
01:18:28.090 --> 01:18:30.990
Quite amazing person, but not a perfect person.

1144
01:18:32.695 --> 01:18:40.635
But trusted third parties are, in fact, security holes. And we see this time and time again. We've seen this in this current regulatory environment.

1145
01:18:42.750 --> 01:18:45.250
That it's very clear that that is the case.

1146
01:18:46.190 --> 01:18:47.410
And as a result,

1147
01:18:48.270 --> 01:18:52.755
the things that we should be building are should be as sovereign as possible.

1148
01:18:53.534 --> 01:18:57.635
And that does come down to the UTXO level. Because it doesn't matter what you build on top

1149
01:18:58.969 --> 01:19:00.510
If that UTXO level

1150
01:19:01.850 --> 01:19:04.830
doesn't enable people to have sovereignty and freedom,

1151
01:19:06.090 --> 01:19:09.485
they will never get it. They will just onboard to custodians,

1152
01:19:10.985 --> 01:19:12.765
and then they will get rugged eventually.

1153
01:19:14.345 --> 01:19:15.565
As every custodian

1154
01:19:16.719 --> 01:19:19.699
has shown will eventually rug, even if it's not malicious.

1155
01:19:20.160 --> 01:19:25.140
But anyway, I it's a long winded thing. But but I think, like, the UTXO model does,

1156
01:19:25.465 --> 01:19:26.285
in general,

1157
01:19:27.785 --> 01:19:28.685
add complications

1158
01:19:29.385 --> 01:19:31.005
to design elements.

1159
01:19:31.625 --> 01:19:32.605
I think it's

1160
01:19:33.390 --> 01:19:36.530
I think it's a reason why Ethereum didn't do it.

1161
01:19:37.870 --> 01:19:41.250
Right? Like, I think, the account model has a horrible

1162
01:19:43.415 --> 01:19:45.595
trade off balance on the privacy side.

1163
01:19:46.375 --> 01:19:51.030
But I I think the UTXO model in general is like a hard thing for people to grok.

1164
01:19:51.750 --> 01:19:56.010
And it is one of, like, the big things you guys have to, like, push uphill against

1165
01:19:56.630 --> 01:19:59.449
in terms of actually, like, designing good product. Right?

1166
01:20:03.145 --> 01:20:05.805
There's a lot of good It is. And,

1167
01:20:08.719 --> 01:20:11.380
you know, I like to think of most people,

1168
01:20:12.400 --> 01:20:16.705
should be in a position where they never have to think about that. Right?

1169
01:20:17.165 --> 01:20:19.825
That's that's the product world I want to live in

1170
01:20:20.205 --> 01:20:21.185
that most people,

1171
01:20:22.285 --> 01:20:24.545
my family and friends included, if I

1172
01:20:24.850 --> 01:20:26.790
introduce them to a Bitcoin product,

1173
01:20:27.489 --> 01:20:34.965
the the word UTXO should ideally never have to enter the conversation. They should have no fucking idea what a UTXO is. Right?

1174
01:20:35.425 --> 01:20:37.204
Because they're fucked. They say no.

1175
01:20:37.824 --> 01:20:42.405
Yeah. I think, obviously, there are very there are many situations where that is

1176
01:20:43.090 --> 01:20:43.590
important,

1177
01:20:44.850 --> 01:20:45.350
but

1178
01:20:45.810 --> 01:20:49.110
I hope with time, it becomes less important for most people

1179
01:20:49.875 --> 01:20:52.114
to to know about that and care about that.

1180
01:20:52.755 --> 01:20:54.614
And I just wanted to agree with you

1181
01:20:54.915 --> 01:20:59.175
on the self custodial part. I mean, the that's the kind of product I'm here to build

1182
01:20:59.670 --> 01:21:04.809
and want to make easier to build and support, and that's why I'm really curious about

1183
01:21:05.429 --> 01:21:07.369
what form should those products take

1184
01:21:07.670 --> 01:21:09.455
to reach all those people,

1185
01:21:09.995 --> 01:21:10.495
because

1186
01:21:11.195 --> 01:21:13.455
on chain has its challenges with these.

1187
01:21:14.715 --> 01:21:21.170
Lightning has many benefits, and and LDK node that that I mentioned earlier has made it so much easier

1188
01:21:21.630 --> 01:21:22.270
to build,

1189
01:21:23.230 --> 01:21:25.090
lightning products and especially mobile.

1190
01:21:25.974 --> 01:21:27.994
But, yeah, I'm discovering

1191
01:21:28.375 --> 01:21:33.434
I'm discovering challenges that I wasn't aware of. You know? When you try to build products, then you realize

1192
01:21:34.260 --> 01:21:40.920
what's what's stopping you from providing a great experience. And so now I'm wondering, okay. How can we move beyond those?

1193
01:21:42.295 --> 01:21:45.275
And a lot of them has to do with fees and and the cost of

1194
01:21:45.815 --> 01:21:51.930
you know, I want to be able to recommend a product that someone can download and immediately receive money. Right? That that's sort of a basic,

1195
01:21:52.550 --> 01:21:57.830
a basic function that I want to And you you talk to end users and you start to realize

1196
01:21:59.025 --> 01:22:11.020
once you talk to end users, you realize the pain points. Like, there's so there's so many pain points. And it really is a cheat code. Like, the the regulated custodial products, like, they have a cheat code on design.

1197
01:22:11.719 --> 01:22:15.515
Because they just socialize all those costs, and they just hide it from the user.

1198
01:22:17.195 --> 01:22:18.015
Like, 1031,

1199
01:22:19.035 --> 01:22:22.015
my venture firm, is largest investor in strike.

1200
01:22:24.530 --> 01:22:27.430
Like, Strike has great design, but it's easier,

1201
01:22:28.210 --> 01:22:29.030
much easier

1202
01:22:29.810 --> 01:22:31.510
than a self custody product

1203
01:22:32.325 --> 01:22:39.385
because it's all hidden behind the surface. And they they can hide it because it's a custodial wallet, and you're not holding your own keys.

1204
01:22:40.199 --> 01:22:43.659
That that whole app and and this is why I think it's so

1205
01:22:44.760 --> 01:22:47.659
it's so imperative that we have a organization

1206
01:22:47.960 --> 01:22:48.460
focused

1207
01:22:48.925 --> 01:22:51.344
specifically on open source Bitcoin design.

1208
01:22:52.205 --> 01:22:53.665
Because if we don't,

1209
01:22:54.765 --> 01:23:01.980
like, you can't do the like, it's a hard problem. It's a really hard problem that doesn't have a pure easy solution.

1210
01:23:02.920 --> 01:23:05.580
And but if you don't understand how Bitcoin works,

1211
01:23:06.755 --> 01:23:15.795
we're completely fucked. Like, there's no there's no shot in hell that we're gonna make. And I think I think the the solution is probably not even

1212
01:23:17.220 --> 01:23:20.120
and I'm kinda curious. I mean, this is a hard question, I guess.

1213
01:23:21.220 --> 01:23:22.520
But, like, I think

1214
01:23:23.835 --> 01:23:27.055
that self sovereign Bitcoin will never have better design

1215
01:23:28.475 --> 01:23:28.975
than

1216
01:23:29.995 --> 01:23:33.455
non self sovereign Bitcoin. I think our our our best

1217
01:23:34.510 --> 01:23:37.090
our best result is something that's close,

1218
01:23:37.790 --> 01:23:38.610
not necessarily

1219
01:23:38.990 --> 01:23:40.130
something that's better.

1220
01:23:40.590 --> 01:23:43.945
Do you guys have more optimism than me that you think,

1221
01:23:44.645 --> 01:23:45.785
like, self sovereign

1222
01:23:46.645 --> 01:23:48.345
lightning or self sovereign Bitcoin

1223
01:23:48.725 --> 01:23:50.105
could ever rival

1224
01:23:51.160 --> 01:23:52.460
regular regulated

1225
01:23:52.760 --> 01:23:53.260
captured

1226
01:23:53.880 --> 01:23:55.180
custodial Bitcoin?

1227
01:23:55.800 --> 01:23:58.860
So I would I would I don't think that's the right comparison.

1228
01:23:59.385 --> 01:24:04.525
And I would I would also say, you know, if if you look at, you know, version 0.1 of bitcoin,

1229
01:24:05.065 --> 01:24:07.325
you double click it. It starts. It works.

1230
01:24:07.630 --> 01:24:21.025
Like, try to sign up for a bank account. Try to sign up for Stripe or Revolut. Like, you have to go through all of this stuff, then someone has to call you. You have to, like, you know, do the the face ID, hold up your your passport or something like that. That's not necessarily easy either.

1231
01:24:21.325 --> 01:24:23.905
Right? You you just can't make any mistakes because

1232
01:24:24.285 --> 01:24:28.580
they made it so you can't you can't. Right? You're just you're just gonna get through it.

1233
01:24:29.040 --> 01:24:41.485
Well, in in in bitcoin land, you just have to work with this toolbox and have to figure things out. But I mean, how much easier can it get than version 0.1 of bitcoin? You just double click and it works and it connects to the network

1234
01:24:42.025 --> 01:24:46.110
and and that's it, you know? So but I I would I I

1235
01:24:46.450 --> 01:24:46.950
think

1236
01:24:47.290 --> 01:25:00.565
the there's a saying that the org chart of a of a company reflects the product. It's like who builds it changes what you're building. So I think we're building something that can feel different, that can be different, that can act different,

1237
01:25:00.945 --> 01:25:03.365
that does not compete on the same level.

1238
01:25:03.829 --> 01:25:05.690
If we try to make all of our,

1239
01:25:06.150 --> 01:25:06.650
apps

1240
01:25:07.030 --> 01:25:12.170
look exactly like, you know, what what, you know, Bank of America does or whatever,

1241
01:25:12.545 --> 01:25:18.005
then I feel like we're we're totally doing going the wrong route. We can build these really unique open source things

1242
01:25:18.945 --> 01:25:29.915
that because open source works differently, different people show up there with different time horizon, with different goals. We don't we're not gonna have tracking in there. There are just so many things that a company

1243
01:25:30.375 --> 01:25:38.250
cannot do or will not do because it is a company, because it has to do as a business and all of these things. And open source has a lot more freedom in that respect.

1244
01:25:38.790 --> 01:25:40.490
So I feel like we can

1245
01:25:40.870 --> 01:25:54.005
there there there's, of course, some overlap, but there's also a difference. And I think we can lean into that difference. And it's not it's not exactly fighting the same battle, I would say. That's a good argument. I mean, the argument being

1246
01:25:54.690 --> 01:26:02.545
that, like, regulatory burden, KYC, all that stuff adds all a shit ton of friction that self sovereign Bitcoin doesn't have.

1247
01:26:03.585 --> 01:26:05.605
I'm I'm I'm much more optimistic

1248
01:26:05.985 --> 01:26:08.324
than you than, Matt, I think, because

1249
01:26:09.344 --> 01:26:12.530
I think we can absolutely build I'm an old man.

1250
01:26:13.409 --> 01:26:15.510
I'm an old man in a young person's body.

1251
01:26:16.210 --> 01:26:18.070
I think we can absolutely build,

1252
01:26:19.170 --> 01:26:21.435
as good as, and if not better,

1253
01:26:21.815 --> 01:26:23.755
self custodial products, actually.

1254
01:26:24.295 --> 01:26:25.515
And I I've seen

1255
01:26:26.055 --> 01:26:31.510
many things already that is approaching that. And I think it just takes again, you know, you have to

1256
01:26:32.050 --> 01:26:36.630
not just have the, you know, the world's most brilliant minds when it comes to

1257
01:26:37.105 --> 01:26:39.205
development and engineering and code

1258
01:26:39.505 --> 01:26:45.365
involved. You have to bring the people that has the product sensitivity and the design skills and

1259
01:26:45.690 --> 01:26:46.590
all of those,

1260
01:26:48.010 --> 01:26:49.630
abilities that have

1261
01:26:50.010 --> 01:26:51.550
benefited the custodial,

1262
01:26:52.570 --> 01:26:53.530
companies. Right?

1263
01:26:53.930 --> 01:26:54.670
They've been,

1264
01:26:56.635 --> 01:26:57.695
that that's an evolution,

1265
01:26:59.115 --> 01:27:00.095
over decades,

1266
01:27:00.795 --> 01:27:05.930
in web 2 and what have you. Right? Like, super smooth and these kind of mega scale

1267
01:27:06.710 --> 01:27:07.910
social products. You know?

1268
01:27:09.830 --> 01:27:11.530
And if you apply

1269
01:27:11.910 --> 01:27:12.730
the same

1270
01:27:13.835 --> 01:27:16.255
skills and, you know, pluck out some of the best people,

1271
01:27:17.275 --> 01:27:19.695
and those that are passionate about

1272
01:27:19.995 --> 01:27:32.060
the self custodial way, I think we can absolutely do it. It comes down to, obviously, product choices. And that's why I think it's really important to have many, many more builders and many, many more products in the space because

1273
01:27:32.655 --> 01:27:37.315
that's that's the way you get better things, right, more competition, and that can also lead to more,

1274
01:27:38.575 --> 01:27:44.980
specialized products. You know, we have so many wallets that are what I call generalized wallets. It's like

1275
01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:46.260
it's

1276
01:27:46.935 --> 01:27:51.035
it's like the the, you know, the bank that can do everything or or nothing

1277
01:27:51.415 --> 01:27:54.395
well. Right? I think in in sort of Fintech,

1278
01:27:56.830 --> 01:28:06.335
in TradFi Fintech these days, you have so many specialized products, and we haven't seen that yet in Bitcoin. Right? It's it's very much still it's like, oh, you know, you

1279
01:28:06.955 --> 01:28:11.535
can you can use this wallet for storing $10 of Bitcoin or 10,000,

1280
01:28:12.715 --> 01:28:19.520
which normally would be very different products. And I think we haven't quite seen that yet. And the more specialized you get, the more

1281
01:28:19.980 --> 01:28:22.080
precise you can be in your product

1282
01:28:22.460 --> 01:28:35.390
design choices, you know, the way it works, and you can make some trade offs that works better. So I I I'm I'm much more optimistic. I think we can definitely get there. And the whole, you know, not having to do KYC on the way in is so nice.

1283
01:28:36.250 --> 01:28:37.150
You can literally

1284
01:28:38.250 --> 01:28:40.190
have the wallet ready to go,

1285
01:28:41.610 --> 01:28:45.775
you know, in seconds. And then you have to spend more time maybe on education

1286
01:28:46.075 --> 01:28:47.935
and and those sort of things. But

1287
01:28:48.395 --> 01:28:49.775
in terms of the complications

1288
01:28:50.155 --> 01:28:51.215
in setting up

1289
01:28:51.595 --> 01:28:52.335
an account,

1290
01:28:52.920 --> 01:28:53.900
it's already better.

1291
01:28:54.280 --> 01:28:57.260
So I think we'll get there. I think we'll get there. We just need more people,

1292
01:28:58.360 --> 01:29:00.219
more brilliant minds working on this.

1293
01:29:00.655 --> 01:29:03.715
Let's fucking go. Well, I appreciate your optimism.

1294
01:29:06.415 --> 01:29:06.815
I,

1295
01:29:07.295 --> 01:29:08.835
guys, this has been a great rep.

1296
01:29:09.830 --> 01:29:13.690
Before we get to final thoughts, like, what is the best way for people to support

1297
01:29:14.230 --> 01:29:16.890
Bitcoin Design Community, Bitcoin Design Foundation?

1298
01:29:20.295 --> 01:29:23.114
Also, as of a few days ago, we actually also accept Bitcoin.

1299
01:29:23.574 --> 01:29:27.950
So there we go. It wasn't it wasn't possible for some time. So bitcoin designer foundation.org.

1300
01:29:28.490 --> 01:29:29.710
Fucking time, Christophe.

1301
01:29:31.210 --> 01:29:36.205
Yeah. Because we we do use open collectives, so we kinda rely on them, but they found a way to do it.

1302
01:29:37.085 --> 01:29:37.825
So bigkindesignfoundation.org

1303
01:29:39.565 --> 01:29:41.265
is the place to find the foundation,

1304
01:29:41.965 --> 01:29:44.305
and in there, there should be a link to donate.

1305
01:29:44.650 --> 01:29:45.469
So check that

1306
01:29:45.849 --> 01:29:55.825
out. And we have not we actually have an announcement for the bitcoin donation stuff. It's so new. We haven't even announced it, quite yet. Awesome. Follow the

1307
01:29:56.845 --> 01:30:00.545
Twitter and Nostra accounts for the Bitcoin design community,

1308
01:30:01.005 --> 01:30:01.505
and

1309
01:30:03.220 --> 01:30:07.800
you'll you'll see that. What if what if what if you're a designer that wants to

1310
01:30:09.140 --> 01:30:09.640
contribute?

1311
01:30:10.955 --> 01:30:12.815
What wanna take that one?

1312
01:30:13.195 --> 01:30:14.574
The best thing is to,

1313
01:30:15.275 --> 01:30:17.135
hop in your browser, go to bitcoin.design.

1314
01:30:18.770 --> 01:30:31.665
That's the sort of web home of the community. You you got the link to to join the Discord there, which is a great place. Just come in there and say hi. Say what you're interested in, and we'll we'll we'll guide you to something.

1315
01:30:33.245 --> 01:30:35.090
Every week, there are calls going on,

1316
01:30:35.650 --> 01:30:39.909
so you can just join one of those, see what it's about, you know, lurk around, listen,

1317
01:30:41.090 --> 01:30:41.909
ask questions.

1318
01:30:43.054 --> 01:30:49.955
We have a calendar you can sign up to to to see what calls are coming up. And then, of course, there's there's the guide, which is bitcoin.design/guide.

1319
01:30:51.215 --> 01:30:55.150
You know, if you're interested in just getting into designing products or see what

1320
01:30:56.010 --> 01:30:57.070
what flows are

1321
01:30:58.490 --> 01:30:58.990
are

1322
01:30:59.855 --> 01:31:17.890
are there or, you know, the reference wallets, which we encourage everybody to just take and improve and, you know, build upon. It's it's, they're meant as a starting point, not just like, you know, you have to do x. Right? Like, it's take this, and this is your new zero instead of you starting where everybody else had to start, you know, 4 years ago.

1323
01:31:18.295 --> 01:31:19.995
And Bitcoin Design is the best

1324
01:31:20.295 --> 01:31:29.150
place. And I'll add 2 two events that are coming up. So in 8 days, May 16th is Global Accessibility Awareness Day. Most Bitcoin applications do not have great accessibility.

1325
01:31:29.929 --> 01:31:45.360
So we're organizing a workshop where people can learn how to test applications for accessibility and file these issues. For developers, there's also a bit of a talk there about how to work on it, fix this stuff. We had it last year. It got great reception. Mostly developers actually showed up,

1326
01:31:46.300 --> 01:31:52.725
which was awesome. So we're gonna do that again. That's May 16. Tried to take that day, Do something about accessibility.

1327
01:31:53.505 --> 01:32:02.390
You know, people are gonna appreciate it. Those quiet people who who have problems with these things. Well, if you're blind, you're fucked. Right? Like, how do you use Bitcoin if you're blind?

1328
01:32:02.930 --> 01:32:11.955
You know, most applications are actually the accessibility features of smartphones are actually really good, but they're usually not implemented in the right way. Speak the commands?

1329
01:32:13.055 --> 01:32:28.585
Correct. Yeah. It's like you you use a very it's it's almost like an API that you make available to the code where you can just navigate through each of the elements 1 by 1 and it the screen reader reads out what it is that you're looking at. And if, let's say, you have an icon in there that doesn't have a label, then it just says

1330
01:32:28.965 --> 01:32:33.385
button. Right? And you don't know what it is or what it does. Right? So there's a lot of very simple stuff.

1331
01:32:34.220 --> 01:32:40.000
Like, there's one wallet where the there's one button to access your transaction history. That button is not selectable.

1332
01:32:40.620 --> 01:32:49.125
No blind user can access your transaction history in that wallet. I'm not gonna say what it is, but very easy stuff to fix. So let's take May 16,

1333
01:32:49.510 --> 01:32:57.450
find this stuff, maybe fix a few things. That'd be great. And then we're organizing a design track at the BTC Prague Hack Day on June

1334
01:32:57.830 --> 01:32:58.330
12th.

1335
01:32:59.275 --> 01:33:03.055
So join us there. It's gonna be we're gonna have a design lounge. We're gonna do all kinds

1336
01:33:03.515 --> 01:33:05.455
of fun hacky design.

1337
01:33:05.755 --> 01:33:09.090
Chris, Doug, do you have the number of blind adults?

1338
01:33:10.510 --> 01:33:11.570
I do not.

1339
01:33:12.270 --> 01:33:16.130
No. Okay. So you just discriminate under 14, but not blind people?

1340
01:33:16.705 --> 01:33:17.205
Correct.

1341
01:33:18.945 --> 01:33:22.325
Because they should be able to use it. I had to ask They they should have a UTXO.

1342
01:33:23.265 --> 01:33:34.369
A a 12 year old blind child should be able to use Bitcoin, in my opinion. That's our goal. I agree. Yep. We're gonna I'm and and I'm not trying to discriminate against 11 year olds. They should also I don't know.

1343
01:33:35.635 --> 01:33:37.175
There's always a number.

1344
01:33:37.555 --> 01:33:40.695
Okay. And then one last thing. Okay. So you're a developer.

1345
01:33:41.315 --> 01:33:43.095
You have no design

1346
01:33:44.140 --> 01:33:45.040
skills whatsoever.

1347
01:33:45.420 --> 01:33:48.060
How does the develop how should the developer get,

1348
01:33:48.780 --> 01:33:49.280
involved?

1349
01:33:51.605 --> 01:33:53.605
Pretty much same thing. So,

1350
01:33:53.925 --> 01:34:02.230
bitcoin dot design is a good start. If you just wanna kind of, you know, sneak on some designs, you know, compare your onboarding flow with

1351
01:34:02.610 --> 01:34:04.710
with what's in there, you can do that. Just

1352
01:34:05.090 --> 01:34:07.590
take what what what you what you seem appropriate.

1353
01:34:09.395 --> 01:34:14.135
And if you have questions that don't seem to be answered, you know, jump in the Discord again

1354
01:34:14.675 --> 01:34:20.860
with a question or or join one of the calls or even set up a design review for your product. Right?

1355
01:34:21.480 --> 01:34:22.300
Free feedback.

1356
01:34:23.719 --> 01:34:24.199
It's,

1357
01:34:24.679 --> 01:34:26.860
friendly. It's, you know, no

1358
01:34:27.245 --> 01:34:27.985
no expectations

1359
01:34:28.364 --> 01:34:29.565
really. Like, if if you

1360
01:34:30.205 --> 01:34:32.145
if you're open to to feedback,

1361
01:34:34.205 --> 01:34:36.385
you'll get it. And it's it's normally

1362
01:34:38.750 --> 01:34:41.250
enlightening, I think. You know? Even, you know,

1363
01:34:41.550 --> 01:34:48.755
doesn't matter how much you think you've honed it, or, you know, figured it out. It's there's always it's always good to meet people for the first time

1364
01:34:49.295 --> 01:34:51.875
that encounter your product and and try to kind

1365
01:34:52.335 --> 01:34:56.040
of reason about it. So, yeah, that's what I would recommend.

1366
01:34:56.500 --> 01:35:01.755
And I would say we're trying to to break that there are no there's no wall between design and development. There's also project managers and illustrators and animators and

1367
01:35:03.675 --> 01:35:18.960
illustrators and animators and translators and QA testing and all kinds of people and just people who review code and make sure everything's clean and and and solid of this stuff. Like, we're all in this together. You know? It's called the Bitcoin Design Community because it has a focus,

1368
01:35:19.344 --> 01:35:29.430
but that doesn't mean it's it's exclusive. We're all trying to achieve the same thing, I think. I agree. We're all in this together. I will say also that COVID kinda ruined that phrase for me.

1369
01:35:30.210 --> 01:35:30.710
But

1370
01:35:31.010 --> 01:35:32.390
I'd I fundamentally,

1371
01:35:32.850 --> 01:35:35.670
we are all in this together. And if we want our grandkids

1372
01:35:36.295 --> 01:35:37.755
to live in a world of freedom,

1373
01:35:39.094 --> 01:35:45.035
and we want future generations to live in a world of freedom, then it comes down to people actually fucking doing things.

1374
01:35:46.380 --> 01:35:51.760
So freaks keep doing things. Get the shit done. Because if not you, who the fuck's gonna do it?

1375
01:35:52.300 --> 01:35:52.800
Guys,

1376
01:35:53.735 --> 01:35:54.715
this has been great.

1377
01:35:55.495 --> 01:35:57.595
I wanna do a huge shout out to Moe,

1378
01:35:58.535 --> 01:35:59.835
your partner in work.

1379
01:36:00.969 --> 01:36:04.349
I met her in Costa Rica at a Human Rights Foundation retreat,

1380
01:36:05.289 --> 01:36:06.429
and she really

1381
01:36:07.824 --> 01:36:12.645
made sure to get across to me how important design was. I like to think that I was already,

1382
01:36:15.940 --> 01:36:16.820
I I was already

1383
01:36:17.620 --> 01:36:21.960
it was already near and dear to me. Like, I already realized design was important, but she

1384
01:36:22.585 --> 01:36:26.185
really knocked some sense to me and was like, you gotta really care about this. And,

1385
01:36:26.825 --> 01:36:31.165
you guys are lucky to have her as part of the community and and your partner in work. And,

1386
01:36:31.620 --> 01:36:35.400
unfortunately, she couldn't join us today. But, it's important to shout her out.

1387
01:36:36.740 --> 01:36:39.480
And then also, I want to shout out the Rider Die Freaks

1388
01:36:40.125 --> 01:36:40.625
who

1389
01:36:41.245 --> 01:36:43.985
went through the difficulties of the live chat today.

1390
01:36:44.845 --> 01:36:47.905
Going between Noster and Google and YouTube and

1391
01:36:48.760 --> 01:36:51.020
and just and just literally

1392
01:36:51.720 --> 01:36:53.740
going through the hoops with us,

1393
01:36:54.200 --> 01:36:55.100
live on air.

1394
01:36:55.560 --> 01:36:59.965
You guys do make the show unique. Without you, dispatch is just

1395
01:37:01.145 --> 01:37:04.845
not dispatch. It's not it's not the same show. So thank you for

1396
01:37:05.590 --> 01:37:12.090
participating with us. And huge shout out to the freaks who supported the show because we do not have ads. We do not have sponsors.

1397
01:37:13.515 --> 01:37:23.350
Our top supporters this week was Nat Gas Immersion with a 100,000 sats. I wanna be clear. He gave a 100,000 sats last week, and then he gave a 100,000 sats this week.

1398
01:37:25.250 --> 01:37:25.750
Massive,

1399
01:37:26.050 --> 01:37:31.085
massive contribution. Appreciate it. Then we have guns at Gunson with a 121,000

1400
01:37:31.704 --> 01:37:32.204
stats.

1401
01:37:33.704 --> 01:37:37.565
Thank you, sir. We appreciate it. And then we have Kieran with 10,000 stats.

1402
01:37:37.900 --> 01:37:40.320
He gave that yesterday before his site broke.

1403
01:37:41.260 --> 01:37:44.000
It's completely unrelated to his site breaking. But,

1404
01:37:44.540 --> 01:37:48.244
he does care. And if you haven't listened to the dispatch with Kieran, you should.

1405
01:37:48.625 --> 01:37:52.965
Guys, before we wrap, I'd like to end it with final thoughts. Daniel, final thoughts.

1406
01:37:55.239 --> 01:37:55.739
Optimism.

1407
01:37:56.280 --> 01:37:57.900
I think, this is,

1408
01:37:58.840 --> 01:37:59.340
endlessly

1409
01:37:59.960 --> 01:38:01.260
exciting and unique

1410
01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:02.140
and

1411
01:38:03.205 --> 01:38:04.824
a good course and

1412
01:38:05.125 --> 01:38:11.625
just fun. So I I I think, that's that's my final thought. You know, I'm I feel really happy to be working

1413
01:38:12.870 --> 01:38:15.670
in this community and in this space. I think it's it's,

1414
01:38:17.430 --> 01:38:19.450
you know, it's a kind of a once in a lifetime

1415
01:38:20.150 --> 01:38:21.290
opportunity. So

1416
01:38:21.635 --> 01:38:24.935
keep keep trying to build that, self custodial Bitcoin

1417
01:38:25.235 --> 01:38:28.455
wallet product for for everybody in the world. That's sort of

1418
01:38:29.010 --> 01:38:39.995
that's sort of my final thought. Damn right. Thank you, Daniel. Christophe, final thoughts. I've not much to add. Join the Bitcoin design community. Let's let's get hands on. Let's make it happen today, tomorrow.

1419
01:38:41.255 --> 01:38:47.559
Let's fucking go. Thank you, Christophe. I wanna say to both of you guys, I appreciate what you guys do. It's important.

1420
01:38:49.619 --> 01:38:50.179
Don't get,

1421
01:38:51.059 --> 01:38:55.245
trodden down too much. And, if if there's anything I can do to help,

1422
01:38:55.785 --> 01:38:59.005
don't hesitate to reach out. You guys both have my private contact info.

1423
01:39:00.790 --> 01:39:03.050
I will specifically say I really like

1424
01:39:03.590 --> 01:39:06.890
what the Bitwise ETF did in terms of,

1425
01:39:07.670 --> 01:39:10.489
their donation structure, which was a 10 year

1426
01:39:11.225 --> 01:39:12.125
donation structure.

1427
01:39:12.585 --> 01:39:13.725
10% of profits.

1428
01:39:14.425 --> 01:39:16.605
Split between 3 orgs. HRF,

1429
01:39:17.065 --> 01:39:18.285
Brink, and OpenSets.

1430
01:39:19.305 --> 01:39:26.590
And I would love, you know, for us to have these kind of long term reoccurring things that also include the Bitcoin Design Foundation.

1431
01:39:27.050 --> 01:39:28.350
I think that would be

1432
01:39:28.995 --> 01:39:34.695
awesome for everyone involved. I think it's absolutely integral. I think design is one of those things that,

1433
01:39:35.315 --> 01:39:38.580
people don't find sexy. They don't find spicy. They don't think it's

1434
01:39:39.460 --> 01:39:41.000
necessarily that important.

1435
01:39:41.620 --> 01:39:44.200
But it it is it is absolutely,

1436
01:39:45.540 --> 01:39:48.475
integral to it, to what we're building towards, which is

1437
01:39:49.035 --> 01:39:51.055
easy to use, freedom focused product,

1438
01:39:52.315 --> 01:39:53.055
and projects.

1439
01:39:54.475 --> 01:39:59.300
That would not be possible without good design. So thank you guys for focusing so much on that and,

1440
01:40:00.100 --> 01:40:01.880
consider me an asset and a friend.

1441
01:40:02.740 --> 01:40:14.265
Well, thanks for everything you do. I know you're you're you're you're fighting every day. You're doing a 1000000 different things. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for joining. And, I would like to make this reoccurring. Can we make this like a reoccurring,

1442
01:40:15.340 --> 01:40:20.880
maybe quarterly or something? It's like, what's going on in design? Like, we need to talk about it. Can we do that?

1443
01:40:21.340 --> 01:40:30.945
Awesome. Totally. Sounds good. Fuck, yeah. And we'll maybe we'll bring we should try and bring Moe in next time. Like, that would be fucking awesome. Yep. Okay. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Freaks.

1444
01:40:31.950 --> 01:40:33.730
You guys are all the best. Peace.

1445
01:41:08.890 --> 01:41:11.870
Again. They've always been so kind,

1446
01:41:13.530 --> 01:41:15.790
but now they've brought you away

1447
01:41:16.090 --> 01:41:16.865
from here.

1448
01:43:16.185 --> 01:43:17.165
Like this before.

1449
01:43:18.105 --> 01:43:23.245
We don't talk about it. Dance up, I'll kill the boogie all night long.

1450
01:43:24.025 --> 01:43:24.925
Stone and

1451
01:45:49.555 --> 01:45:50.535
Love you freaks.

1452
01:45:51.155 --> 01:45:54.455
That track was Stolen Dance by Moki Chance.

1453
01:45:57.460 --> 01:45:58.840
It just felt relevant

1454
01:45:59.860 --> 01:46:02.120
with the time thieves among us.

1455
01:46:03.145 --> 01:46:06.605
Stop stealing our money. Stop stealing our wealth. Stop stealing our time.

1456
01:46:07.705 --> 01:46:09.244
We see you. We're noticing.

1457
01:46:10.744 --> 01:46:11.645
Don't do that.

1458
01:46:13.310 --> 01:46:15.170
Freaks. I, remembered,

1459
01:46:16.510 --> 01:46:17.010
yesterday's

1460
01:46:17.870 --> 01:46:20.505
end track. Yesterday's music track,

1461
01:46:22.805 --> 01:46:27.145
which is Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young at Wembley Stadium

1462
01:46:27.910 --> 01:46:28.730
doing Ohio,

1463
01:46:29.510 --> 01:46:30.410
in 1974.

1464
01:46:30.950 --> 01:46:32.730
That was their encore track.

1465
01:46:33.750 --> 01:46:37.130
That was the last track they played of the whole set.

1466
01:46:38.264 --> 01:46:41.724
It's on YouTube. The full set's on YouTube. I have it now downloaded.

1467
01:46:42.025 --> 01:46:43.485
I cut out Ohio.

1468
01:46:45.465 --> 01:46:48.010
Listen to it. It's a great set.

1469
01:46:48.630 --> 01:46:51.530
It's pretty crazy that we can listen to sets from 1974,

1470
01:46:52.869 --> 01:46:55.050
and watch them and actually see

1471
01:46:56.075 --> 01:47:00.335
how the people reacted and how they enjoyed it. To me, that is, like,

1472
01:47:03.000 --> 01:47:07.100
that is fucking cool. And it's part of the reason why I do still dispatch,

1473
01:47:09.160 --> 01:47:11.179
is because it's it's a time capsule.

1474
01:47:11.585 --> 01:47:13.925
And now that we have Blossom, now that we have Noster,

1475
01:47:15.105 --> 01:47:16.005
it's an immutable

1476
01:47:16.385 --> 01:47:20.325
time time capsule where you know it's not changed by AI in the future,

1477
01:47:20.830 --> 01:47:21.810
which is really cool.

1478
01:47:22.910 --> 01:47:25.730
Guys, I got a great week planned for us.

1479
01:47:26.510 --> 01:47:28.290
Well, tomorrow's a wrap up whole recap,

1480
01:47:29.415 --> 01:47:30.715
which happens every week.

1481
01:47:31.415 --> 01:47:32.795
Very excited about it.

1482
01:47:33.095 --> 01:47:37.835
I'm not very ex I'm I'm excited about it. Just generally excited about it.

1483
01:47:39.630 --> 01:47:42.449
It'll be a good rip. And then next week,

1484
01:47:43.150 --> 01:47:43.650
Wednesday,

1485
01:47:44.110 --> 01:47:45.409
1700 UTC,

1486
01:47:46.670 --> 01:47:50.035
we have Hong Kim, CTO and cofounder of Bitwise,

1487
01:47:50.895 --> 01:47:54.195
will be joining me live in the studio in Nashville,

1488
01:47:55.135 --> 01:47:56.355
at Big Horn Park.

1489
01:47:56.929 --> 01:48:00.230
So that'll be an in person rep, which are always extra fun.

1490
01:48:01.489 --> 01:48:02.610
And then Friday

1491
01:48:03.705 --> 01:48:04.445
well, Thursday,

1492
01:48:05.065 --> 01:48:06.445
probably around 1800

1493
01:48:06.745 --> 01:48:09.965
UTC. I I haven't confirmed with Marty yet. We'll be a rapid recap.

1494
01:48:10.265 --> 01:48:11.245
And then Friday,

1495
01:48:11.625 --> 01:48:12.824
1700 UTC,

1496
01:48:14.160 --> 01:48:16.180
we'll be with Matt Hill of Start 9,

1497
01:48:16.560 --> 01:48:18.739
and we'll be talking about Start 9, the company,

1498
01:48:19.360 --> 01:48:20.180
and StartOS,

1499
01:48:21.035 --> 01:48:22.575
the free and open source

1500
01:48:23.515 --> 01:48:24.255
self hosting

1501
01:48:24.555 --> 01:48:25.055
focused

1502
01:48:25.515 --> 01:48:26.575
Linux distro,

1503
01:48:28.599 --> 01:48:34.139
which I think, like, at this point, like, self hosting is more important than ever if you've been watching this regulatory environment.

1504
01:48:35.320 --> 01:48:37.900
And StartOS is one of the best ways

1505
01:48:38.945 --> 01:48:40.405
for you to do self hosting

1506
01:48:40.865 --> 01:48:44.085
regardless of what it is, whether that's Bitcoin or other things.

1507
01:48:45.830 --> 01:48:49.130
So I know myself, I I'm running a StartOS box.

1508
01:48:50.070 --> 01:48:53.750
You can buy a box from them, but I I'm actually I built my own

1509
01:48:54.775 --> 01:48:55.755
It's like the Maserati

1510
01:48:56.215 --> 01:48:56.715
of

1511
01:48:58.054 --> 01:48:58.954
self hosted

1512
01:49:01.895 --> 01:49:02.635
server boxes.

1513
01:49:03.980 --> 01:49:07.360
It's running right next to me right now. Fans are whirring.

1514
01:49:08.219 --> 01:49:12.715
But, yeah, that would be a good rip. So I'm pretty excited about the the next week of rips.

1515
01:49:13.495 --> 01:49:16.555
But I just wanted to thank you, Freaks. You guys are awesome.

1516
01:49:17.895 --> 01:49:19.035
You keep me going.

1517
01:49:19.420 --> 01:49:21.199
You give me hope. You give me inspiration.

1518
01:49:22.780 --> 01:49:26.050
I can't do anything without you guys. Like, you guys are the

1519
01:49:26.530 --> 01:49:28.230
the router, so thank you,

1520
01:49:28.610 --> 01:49:31.190
and stay on plus tax ads. Peace.