CD122: NOSTR DEVELOPMENT WITH FIATJAF, HODLBOD, PABLO, AND DILGER

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/27/2024 9:58:09 PM
Duration: 7226.828
Channels: 1

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With central planning money, which is such a core technology to society working. Think about it, Ed. You go to work every single day, and you pour your blood, sweat, and tears all of the time you spend on this planet in exchange for what?

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Money.

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So the central planning of money convulates and complicates

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so much of the inner workings of society. Let's go back to basics. Our government is in debt. Right? Yes or no? The US government. That is what all governments. Right? Our government's in debt. Okay. Traditionally, Ed, if I owed you $20,

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I'd have 2 options. I'd wanna have to default on that and say, you know what, Ed? I hope you still consider me a good friend, but I'm not gonna make whole on that $20.

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The other is I could pay it back. Those are classically the 2 options that anyone in debt has. Right? Now the government, because they centrally plan and control our currency,

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unfortunately, has a third, and that's that they can print more money, devalue

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the debt that they have and that they owe, and allocate more capital to themselves. So our government

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can't default. The US, the United States of America cannot default on debt. It would collapse the entire planet.

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We also cannot afford to pay it back. So if you just like, listen. I didn't even go to college, brother. This is just 101 basics how the world works. If we can't default and we can't pay it back, what's the only option that they have to do? No matter what they sit and tell you at the Fed chair meetings and all of the economists,

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they have to issue more dollars. And so if there's going to be more pieces of green paper, you want them competing for the most fixed thing. Right? There's more dollars that are competing for a fixed amount of Bitcoin. And Jack. Yes. Real estate's gonna go up too because there's more dollars competing for real estate, but they can make more real estate. They can find more gold. They can't make any more Bitcoins. And that's just I mean, even a college dropout can understand that, my friend.

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Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive live show focused on actionable

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Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro was rider die freak and good friend,

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Jack Mallers,

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on Bloomberg.

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Duncan on the host telling him he dropped out of college and still understands the system.

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I have a great, great crew,

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joining me for dispatch today.

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The the focus of the conversation will be Noster.

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I have a subset of the Noster Illuminati

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here on dispatch to discuss Noster development goals, the path forward.

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We have

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Mike Dilger of Gossip,

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the Gossip client. He was on

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dispatch a couple weeks ago. How's it going, Mike?

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You're muted. We went over this earlier.

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His name is literally Mike.

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Is it I actually pressed the end button, but my mouse was in a different window. You're good. Is it is it other than that and I'm I've got my coffee, so I'll try to wake up and be a bit more alert for this. Mike, we did a full rip,

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and I realized afterwards I didn't ask you. Is it Dilger or Dilger?

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Depends what country you're in.

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You know, the Germans will say Dilger, but we never said that because I grew up in America. So it's Dilger.

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Okay. Dilger it is. We have Fiat Jaf,

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the satoshi of nostril. How's it going, Fiat Jaf?

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It's good.

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Good to have you good to have you back on the show.

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I think you've been you've been on the show many times. It's always good to have you.

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We have Pablo who does many things in in Noster. How's it going, Pablo?

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Very good. Nice to be here. Are you cool with that intro? You do a lot.

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I do a lot. Yeah. That sounds good.

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His his main well, one of his projects, definitely not his main project, is Wikifredia,

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which is a Wikipedia competitor that's actually censorship resistant.

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That's not just, like, controlled by Jimmy Wales.

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Yeah. Which Gigi told me a couple of days ago that when he first heard it, he thought it was retarded and hated the idea

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and that it took him, like, a week to realize how genius it actually is.

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Would that he hated Wikifredia?

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Yeah. The the concept of no canonical entry for Wikipedia,

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that there is no one entry for anything. And it's also different. We live in a post truth world now.

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Exactly.

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Yeah. Pablo, you might be on your wrong mic. Tap your mic. Goddamn it. Yeah. You're on your wrong mic. Alright.

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And we have Huddl bod, who I had the pleasure of meeting in person for the first time, in an Austin bathroom.

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He is, the maintainer of Coracle,

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the Nostril client. How's it going, Huddlbot?

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Very well. Good morning to everyone except for Pablo.

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Autobot, by the way, you have,

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you have the title of being there's only 2 people I've I've ever met in a bathroom before is you and Craig Raw.

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So Good. Well, I'm happy to be, be in good company, I guess. Yeah. There you go.

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Okay, guys. Well, first of all, like, we plan to go pretty deep on this show.

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If you've never used Noster or tried Noster,

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you should still join us. You should

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come along for the ride. It's good to hear technical discussions and and kinda learn through osmosis.

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You'll figure it out eventually.

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But if you've never used Nostra, consider checking it out.

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It is

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quite fascinating and quite powerful. And,

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yeah, I mean, if I recommend a client here, like, I'll probably just get shit on. But if you go to the App Store and just search Primal

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in your favorite App Store and download that, it's a good place to get started.

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Company around bags, I see.

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You know, I fund I fund 22 Noster clients. So,

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yes, I am I am pumping my bags a little bit.

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Would I mean, do you agree that, like, primal is the best place for a beginner to get started with Master, or am am I off base with that?

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Yeah. That's probably fair.

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The, the integrated lightning wallet doesn't.

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Yeah. Because people need to feel the zaps in the beginning,

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and Lightning kinda sucks

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to use self custody for the first time. So it it does suck that that primal is using a custodial wallet,

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that has some KYC attached to it. Specifically, you have to do email verification,

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which I don't love,

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But it's pretty smooth onboarding,

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and it works for most people.

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Given the state of things, it could be far worse than email.

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Yeah. Exactly.

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Yeah, Jeff, you you have an opinion on my client recommendation for beginners before we get more technical?

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No. Let's let's get more technical.

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Okay. That's what the flame client flame wars. Yes. You don't wanna do client flame wars? Yeah. Okay.

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There's many great clients. I do we have a repository for all the clients? Is it nostr.org?

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Does that does that list actual clients? Or nostr.net

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has a giant list. Nostr.net. Everybody's busy. If you wanna overwhelm yourself, you can go there,

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or you can open the App Store and just search Primal, get started, and just trial by fire.

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Okay.

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So we have a booming Nostril live chat. You can get to that at sill dispatch dotcom/stream.

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That's powered by zap.stream.

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Shout out Kieran for maintaining that project. Awesome fucking project. You do not need a Nostril account to join us

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there. You can create one on the website.

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Okay, guys. Where do you wanna get started? I woke up in the morning, like, 5 days ago,

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and I was, like, being

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kind of, like, peer pressured into doing something by Fiat Jaffe. It seemed like there was, like, a little bit of protocol wars brewing.

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What is this about? Like, why should people care?

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And maybe that's a good spot to start.

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Okay. Everybody's silent. So what happened was answer.

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Oh, I'm I supposed to do that?

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No. Go for it.

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Well, what happened was that I did a small test that people would say was statistically

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invalid, but I just posted

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to my usual relays

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that I just choose more relays that I post through.

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And and I posted the exact same content to the big relays. And

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in 5 like, 5 minutes, there was a dramatic difference in the amount of responses

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between the 2. And then I did the test again with a comment on the same experiment,

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and the results was the same.

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Like, it was 10 times more

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comments and likes and replies, etcetera,

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on one versus the other.

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And I concluded,

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that this was the problem with the,

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like, with the censorship resistance properties of Nasr. If I was being censored

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by the big relays and was only able to post to my

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2 small relays,

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and then my my post was not reaching the people that have voluntarily decided to follow me, and that was the problem.

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And that, I think, sparked a lot of discussion.

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So, basically,

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Noster uses a system of relays. Right? Anyone can run a relay.

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And if you right now, as Noster

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Noster is pretty early in its adoption cycle, but right now, in Noster, if you if you publish your note if you broadcast your note to one of the the large relays,

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you get more engagement.

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That was the conclusion of your test.

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Yeah. Yeah. The idea is that, there is a much of people that are supposedly following me, but they're not getting my notes or they're not getting them, like, they're maybe they're getting them the relator, but doesn't matter.

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And then it's kind of, like,

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it's a kind of shadow bound, you could say,

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because their clients are not connecting to to the small release, I'm I'm publishing my notes too.

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Yeah. To to add a bit more color to it, the the way more

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the way the way, pretty much all clients, especially, like, the big big,

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clients, they all do it this way. You define a set of relays, and they connect to that that list of relays.

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And then whenever you follow someone, it asks those relays give me everything that all these a 1,000 a 1,000 pub keys that I follow give me everything that you know about them.

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But if you don't publish to to those relays, then if someone is following you, they're simply not going to see it.

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So

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one of the things that we've been discussing is what we used to call the the gossip protocol.

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We gossip means a bunch of things in a bunch of different contexts,

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in lightning networks. It it means one thing.

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So

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we we are trying to change the name to to outbox model,

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which is more descriptive of what we're doing. And the idea is you your pop key says I'm going to be writing on these relays or I'm going to be reading on these relays.

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So if one of the main relay sends for you, it doesn't really matter because the clients will go to those relays and find the notes

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that that you wrote.

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So the the the difference is very stark. I I've been using

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Deimos

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and and a few other clients

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with, a small set of relays, and I'm

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constantly not seeing responses. Then I go to primal in primal because,

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because primal is using the caching server.

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Even though I am using the,

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I am using the same, the same set of relays, I am reading for from the caching relay, so I see all the responses that I would have missed.

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But that only works because the caching service is indexing all these other relays.

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But if

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the the network fragments so, for example, probably FiatChefs pyramid relay, which has, like, 10 users,

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is not being indexed. Right? So if I don't have that relay on my Well, he's probably indexing that, Milan.

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It's a very,

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I mean, it's a it's a it's a known relay, but it's still a very small relay. But the point stands that if I run a small relay, that really is not going to be indexed. If if I span a new relay and I just put it in my NIP 65 on my on my list of relays that I that I write to,

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probably probably, primal is not going to index that. It's not going to be listening for all the relays that are published, and there's one person I mean, the bigger issue the bigger issue is that,

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you know, the the primal caching server can omit posts. It's it's a centralized service. I mean, it's it's false. It's open source. Anyone can run a caching server right now. The Unity Wallet guys run a caching server as well. Presumably, there'll be more you could run your own, technically.

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But I think the bigger issue with the primal caching server is that

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it can lie to you and say that a note doesn't exist, that does exist, and and and you wouldn't know unless you check a different client or switch your caching server.

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Mhmm. I mean, I know Milan's goal is to index, like, all of Nostr

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and every relay and everything.

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I will say using primal during Fjotchoff's test was really annoying because

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I saw all the posts. I saw all the notes.

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Well, the product, like, after 10 minutes, like, after maybe 20 minutes,

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the notes on my small relay, they got broadcasted through all the big relays. So People were rebroadcasting them? Yeah. Yeah. So if if if you arrived on any client, if you arrived

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a little later, a little after I posted, then you'll see both. And then you say my test is flawed, but in the beginning, you would not

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see both. I don't know about about what happened on primal, but I know primal index is my small relay too. So

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primal is not a is not a good parameter. Yeah. It does.

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By the way, was I intentionally excluded from pyramid because you don't like the caps? Was that why I wasn't part of the original group of users?

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No. You can be you can be invited, I think. I'm no. I'm in. I'm in now. Island got me in.

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Well, the idea is that people would invite other people, but I I kept inviting everybody.

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So okay. Yeah. Yeah. The rebroadcast thing isn't isn't a totally irrelevant point either because, like, even if your notes are eventually making it to the big relays,

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there's that time delay. Even if it's, like, 1 minute, 2 minutes,

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Nostra feeds are so,

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so biased towards recency

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that the people who wanna see your stuff, are a lot less likely to see it because most most,

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notes are seen at the top of the feed.

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Yeah. Right. So the ultimate concern is People are saying people are saying that Zap ZapStream died. Is that relevant? Is that something you need to fix? Did ZapStream die?

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It wasn't it just wasn't updating?

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Obviously, no. Yeah. It's it's comments. The stream ended. There is no stream on Substream. Why did the stream end?

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Kieran,

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fix it. This is the censorship we're talking about, Matt. So this is what we need to fix.

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It says it's streaming on my side. Kieran's probably freaking out right now. The chat still works.

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Continue to use the chat freaks,

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while Kieran fix it. We're on YouTube. You know? Fuck Google, but

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it doesn't just There are other clients.

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There are other clients that can see the the live stream. Really?

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Amethyst? Yeah. I don't see it on Nostril though.

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I think it all just goes through ZapStream.

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No. No. No. Yeah. It's just not through events. So, like, on Amethyst, you can see it.

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There's this app stream server, which is different from the client,

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but it's tightly integrated, but it's different. I don't know if you It's probably your streaming service

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that's that's gone down.

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I don't think so because we're still on YouTube. I think you just marked the, the stream as ended in in some way

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Because I it looks like the event changed to to ended.

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I think it watches the stream. So whatever's reeling the stream to, to ZapStream went down. But if YouTube's still working, then that's bullshit.

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YouTube probably a some kind of fan out thing. Okay. Well, we're not gonna, like, troubleshoot this right now. Technical person to help us

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with

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this. Okay, guys. Let's let's continue the conversation.

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The the live chat is still working. Hopefully, it comes back.

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So so, I mean, the so Gossip is is a client that that does this,

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Would you say does this the right way? I mean, we have Mike here.

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Like, the whole point is it's it's supposed to read your your relay list and then

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automatically check the relays that you're broadcasting to depending on on how you're, you know, viewing your feed.

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Yeah. The Gossip client is the first one to do it this way as far as I'm aware.

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And

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by the time

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that

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was sort of formalized

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and we had niche 65 to say,

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here's here's an e here's a better way to do what Gossip was doing, but

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being more straightforward about it,

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there were already some 20 or 30

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nonster clients.

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So

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most of them had already developed

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you know, we're working on other things, and we're we're not thinking about that problem.

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And so that's where we're at today. We have all these developed clients

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that, well, they already built themselves up in a certain way,

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and to go back and change this now is, I think, a little bit a little bit trickier. There's a little bit,

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hesitancy.

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So that's where I think it's, you know, where all of us are trying to, you know, push push to get people to move more towards that because as Fayette Jobs points out, you know, if we don't if you don't check where someone posts, you're not gonna get their posts or you're gonna have to copy the posts.

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And then there's a you're relying on a copying service, which could be a sensor,

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or you're relying on a proxy service, which could be a sensor.

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And so,

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yeah, it's just

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but, yeah, the gossip client was

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was where this started. That's why people were calling it the gossip model.

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Yeah. Yeah. And now now there's quite a few clients that that implement this model. What other clients do?

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By the way, I fixed ZapStream. I just ended the stream and restarted it.

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Well, go ahead. Go ahead. Cool. Yep. I can speak for myself. And I I know NDK, you're putting you're adding support to it. Right, Pablo?

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No. It had support for the past,

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whatever, like, 6 months or something like that. I don't know. Yeah. Like, I don't know. For for a while,

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I'm improving support and improving and improving

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and everything after 2.1,

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which was a while ago,

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has outbox model by default.

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So I have a list Loom has it too. Yeah. Loom. Loom uses NDK, so so do it does.

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Nozzle. I don't know if Nozzle is still around. Canvas app, is that still around? I don't know. Snort

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uses it. Iris,

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OpenVive is in the process.

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So Nastur Hasid.

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Horrible name. Nastur Hasid. Horrible name. I didn't know. Yeah. With a u. Nastur with a u.

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One u. It should at least be 2 u's, but whatever.

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The the interesting

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it's kinda interesting though because, like, having the outbox model isn't really like a a Boolean switch.

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Yeah. It's it's incredibly complicated to get right,

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even if you're doing just the outbox part of it.

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Yeah. I was reviewing my my implementation this morning because,

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right now, feeds,

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don't exactly

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implement it because I have a cap on how many,

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relay connections the client can open at any given time. And so Coracle actually weights towards, the biggest relays currently. The fuck?

258
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Yeah. Sorry. I rugged you guys. I'm, I'm trying to fix it right now, but,

259
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and then there's the whole, like, bootstrapping problem. So what relay do you connect to first on a fresh on a fresh, like, install of your client?

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And how do you find everyone's Relay selections in the first place? That's a whole whole other

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thing that,

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that clients have to do right or wrong or or figure out some way.

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Yeah. Even the gossip client isn't doing everything right. Like, I as we were discussing DIP 65, I I realized I'm not looking for replies

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in the inbox of of the author of the event that I'm looking for replies in. I I don't I never read from an inbox. I only write to an inbox, unless it's my inbox.

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But that ends up being a really great place to find those replies because if all the other clients are using the outbox model, they will they will be putting replies into that inbox so I could find them all there.

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So now I have to go change my code. So I'm not even, you know, doing it all right in the gossip plan.

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I I don't think there's a kinda tweaking it a little bit. I don't think there's a correct way. I think there's, there are many ways to do it. There's

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each client can have a different approach. You can have, like, to think big manual. You have to click a button to add a new relay or accept connection to a new relay, or you can do it automatically.

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You can only fetch reply from relays that you you deem to be safe of spam or,

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into the release that are not safe of spam. You restrict that to some accounts only or something like that.

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You can

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pick relays only from the NIP 60 like the NIP 65

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list of relays that people publish, or you can use relay hits, which I think you should

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even as a secondary fallback mechanism.

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Can you use other other ways to track, like, the the

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to keep track of who where people are posting and how to connect?

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You can do one thing that I think some clients are doing. It's like like you optimize

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to only connect to some relays. You you like, you

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you pick relays that a lot of people are publishing to, and then you connect to those instead of connecting to, like, a small relay that's just one person who publishes

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as long as that person is covered.

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You can do that or you cannot do that. You can use a different rate to select the relays when you're asking for post.

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I don't think that's correct, man.

283
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I, yeah, I agree. A few a few months ago, like, 6 months or so ago,

284
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we had a bit of a discussion on the roster whether we should formalize

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how to implement the outbox model.

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And we realized that there it's more of an art than a science. It's it's something that we it's not settled on what's the right way. Like, for each of I don't think there is a right way. There is just a bunch of different approaches, and we are using the term outbox model or gossip

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as a as a very loose term. It doesn't necessarily need to be the outbox itself.

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It's like what the the

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the discussion we're having is about

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what's the smart way

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of reading and writing from relays.

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And when we want to like client relay selection.

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Like, how clients handle relay selection.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean Like, one one of the things he said right now, we are at the stage where, say, for example, you have I I used this example today on on Noster,

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talking with, with Shavie 55.

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And

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imagine that you have 5 main relays and you are following Trump, and then Trump is banned from all those 5 relays.

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And he moves to relay.troopsocial.com,

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but nobody's read reading from relay.troopsocial.com.

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But they would if you switched to it.

301
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Well, actually, Trump had what? Like, a 100,000,000 followers? In truth social, he has 6,000,000 followers. Yeah. But truth social is a fucking shit coin. It fucking sucks. Like, if you just have to go into settings and just, like, change which relays you're looking at, like, it's a way lower lift. But it's it's a very bad idea to do that because, like, you're going to connect to truth social, and then you ask for all your posts from all the Bitcoiners you follow from the truth social relay that has not no one

302
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just has Trump. Like, this

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is so bad. The client should be architected. Wait. So True. I mean, there's 2 things here. Right? Like, Mike There are many things. Mike Mike there's many things here.

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And I saw pseudo Carlos,

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commented like, oh, this feels like one of my work calls. I get this is like a nostril work call is what's going on here, and I hope you guys enjoy it.

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We try and mix it up here on dispatch. I know I'm enjoying it. Okay.

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I because I I need Noster, and I love Noster, and I I use Noster. And I I wanted to be as censorship resistant as possible because I know the first censorship battle is gonna be against all caps,

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and we need this to be as as censorship resistant as possible before they try and stop my caps.

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The there's there's

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like, Mike is building a desktop only client, which I'm I'm not gonna say is easy, but it's easier

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than if people are coming on mobile. Right? Because, like, the big trade off here is, like, if if I'm hit if my mobile client is hitting a ton of relays,

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like, it's gonna hurt it's gonna suck up data,

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and it's going to

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hurt my battery life. Right? Am I correct in this No. You're you're

315
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you're not.

316
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So the way the way NOS works is when you fetch events, if when you fetch notes from other people you follow is you literally send your whole follow list to each relay saying give me everything you know from this 1,000 puppies. Right? Okay. Follow-up a 1,000 puppies. So if you're connected to the my to the main 5 relays,

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the main 5 relays are all going to have, most likely,

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the the events for all 1,000 of those puppies. Right?

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So you are essentially downloading if you're using 5 relays, you're downloading the same events

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valid and 5,

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5 times. Right? If you're connected to 10 relays, you're downloading the same event 10 times. Each event for all the people that you follow to, 10 times. In the outbox with the outbox outbox model, you will query the the relays where you know that these people are publishing. I just want Pablo from this relay.

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Exactly. But then you don't send Pablo to all the other 20 relays you're connected to. You said Pablo from this 1 or 2 relays. That's it.

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So it's actually less data consumption.

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The, the overhead that I think Vitor has pointed out is from establishing a bunch of connections to different relays, and that's like,

325
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I guess, SSL,

326
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encryption

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negotiation.

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And I don't know how true that is, but I trust Vidor. He he works on a mobile client and I don't. So I think that is substantial, but

329
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I'm I'm like what you said, Odell, I'm I'm lucky I'm on a desktop. I don't have to deal with this complex problem. But

330
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it seems to me,

331
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like like Pablo says, it's less data,

332
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which is oh, you're getting it from potentially a lot more connections.

333
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And so the only way that that could be more overhead is if the per connection overhead was high,

334
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and which makes me think of SSL because obviously this is all over SSL.

335
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But the the

336
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the cost to your battery life of establishing an SSL session is really in the public key,

337
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key exchange

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stuff,

339
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And the cost,

340
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to your battery life of verifying an event is is, like, 3 times worse

341
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with,

342
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store signatures,

343
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on on this curve that we're using. And so,

344
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to me, it seems like if your client

345
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on a phone is verifying events,

346
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that's far more of your battery drain than the,

347
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the connection overhead of SSL. And so even in this case, it seems that the app box model would be less battery drain

348
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because you're not getting, you know, 101 the same event 10 times, and you're not verifying the same event 10 times.

349
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Yeah. There there are ways around that. Like, so in Coreacle, I keep a cache of,

350
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event hashes to signatures. I think I stole this from NDK, actually. So I don't I don't validate the same event multiple times.

351
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But that's like that's an in the weeds thing. But, also, I wanna point out, like, this whole network topology thing is one conversation, but the optimizations,

352
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there's that's a whole different conversation. So I'm I'm very much in favor of,

353
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proxies,

354
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and these can take all kinds of different forms. I I wrote one about a year ago. A number a number of them have been written. And the proxies can do a lot of this deduplication for you. And even if you trust it, it can,

355
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check signatures

356
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for you. If you really trust it, you can give it your private key, and it can sign things for you.

357
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We don't have to debate the trade offs with that. But,

358
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you know, if you're talking to a single proxy that you trust and that proxy is swappable, you get all the censorship resistance, you get the network topology that you want, and you only have to establish a single network connection and download events a single time. So, like, you know, just keep that in the back of your mind when you're thinking about all this stuff.

359
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Like, battery life and connections and validating signatures, these are not real reasons to not use the gossip or the the outbox model. I can't stop using the saying gossip. I'm sorry. Gossip's a better gossip's a better name than outbox.

360
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It's a weird it's a horrible name, man, because it means something different things.

361
00:30:33.054 --> 00:30:38.835
But why do I call it gossip? It knows who it is. It's Twitter model. Why did out Outbox get chosen as the name?

362
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It it's more representative of of what's going on, really. But it's also not a great name.

363
00:30:45.540 --> 00:30:49.225
It's really We need, like, a naming podcast on this space.

364
00:30:49.785 --> 00:30:53.804
I have I have 2 naming podcasts. It wasn't meant to be a marketing name.

365
00:30:54.105 --> 00:30:57.885
It was meant to help describe describe what's going on to other developers.

366
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Got it. Yep. People have is the only main People have an inbox and an outbox. If you wanna send something to them, you put it in their inbox. If they put it in their outbox, you can look there to see all the things they posted. That's basically it.

367
00:31:10.225 --> 00:31:13.525
So the outbox is is my small relay that I'm running?

368
00:31:13.905 --> 00:31:14.405
Potentially.

369
00:31:15.025 --> 00:31:20.110
Or there's someone else's running? You can have you can post to 10 relays. I wouldn't, but you can post

370
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to, you know, multiple relays and that your outbox is actually multiple relays. Okay. So let's let's

371
00:31:26.835 --> 00:31:36.760
let's I mean, let's start naming names because I feel like it you're, like, pussy footing around the names of of of clients and stuff, and and it makes it more difficult conversation.

372
00:31:37.220 --> 00:31:42.520
So is the biggest concern here of, like, how Domus is handling things? Like, is Domus just

373
00:31:43.125 --> 00:31:46.024
like it breaks if if you're not publishing

374
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to big relays?

375
00:31:47.684 --> 00:31:48.184
No.

376
00:31:49.205 --> 00:31:51.705
Nothing is broken right now. From big relays.

377
00:31:52.330 --> 00:31:56.750
Go, Fiescher. Nothing is broken right now. We're just preparing for the future. Like,

378
00:31:57.450 --> 00:31:59.470
if Nasr is not censorship resistance,

379
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then I don't I don't see the point. Like, I don't I don't know what the the people that are not

380
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supporting the outbox model,

381
00:32:08.910 --> 00:32:10.770
why do they like Noster if

382
00:32:11.230 --> 00:32:14.370
if Noster is not censorship resistant? Or why why did they came?

383
00:32:14.830 --> 00:32:17.490
It's like the a bunch of developers writing clients.

384
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I know, like,

385
00:32:20.085 --> 00:32:20.585
JB

386
00:32:21.445 --> 00:32:23.225
55 points is is that you

387
00:32:24.245 --> 00:32:33.200
can manually go there and add a new relay whenever someone is censored. But I I don't think that I think the client must help you somehow to find out that someone is

388
00:32:34.080 --> 00:32:36.535
automation because the users aren't gonna fucking do it.

389
00:32:36.915 --> 00:32:43.015
Yeah. Yeah. Like, the default right now, the default is that when if someone is censored, if someone is not using,

390
00:32:43.470 --> 00:32:46.130
the main relays or the relays that you are using,

391
00:32:47.149 --> 00:32:56.995
they simply don't show up. Right? You follow them, and you think, oh, this person is never publishing and is never posting anything. It's like a shadow bunny. You they simply don't show up. You don't know that if something is happening.

392
00:32:57.455 --> 00:32:58.434
But In theory.

393
00:32:58.815 --> 00:33:00.274
But I think it's time

394
00:33:00.575 --> 00:33:01.475
to to mention,

395
00:33:02.210 --> 00:33:03.030
because of blaster,

396
00:33:03.490 --> 00:33:12.534
it it does show up. Main or main? Ends up. Yeah. No. No. Not really. Not really. I I've been using I've been using small relays for the past 5 days. And

397
00:33:12.835 --> 00:33:13.815
on on Deimos,

398
00:33:14.914 --> 00:33:35.065
most of the responses don't have like, most of the responses don't have what they're responding to, I cannot see. And then I moved to primal, and then I see what the response was to. But it's not in theory. It's it's already happening. Like Yeah. And the primal is not a solution. Right? Once again. Primal is not a solution that scales. Yeah. It it's part of a solution. When it will scale, centralization

399
00:33:35.445 --> 00:33:36.264
always scales.

400
00:33:37.205 --> 00:34:01.230
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is centralization, but making that indexer swappable would be would be It is swappable. It already is swappable. There you go. It's in settings. Yeah. But what I would like is a good step. What I would like is a good step. No. No. Well, the proprietary format is bad, but the the the architecture is is okay. Well, what I would like is for your your client to like, the primal client to automatically,

401
00:34:01.644 --> 00:34:06.865
like, dub because the the big thing the caching server is trusted with is it can omit

402
00:34:07.404 --> 00:34:11.790
notes that exist. Right? So I think there's something there to be said about, like,

403
00:34:12.250 --> 00:34:14.190
doing a sample of your relays.

404
00:34:14.650 --> 00:34:27.500
And if you notice your caching serve like, if the client notices the caching server is lying to you about notes that exist, it automatically switches to someone else's caching server. Like, you have, like, extra caching servers, like, in settings,

405
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:30.220
and it'll just automatically flip over.

406
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.220
Does that help at all?

407
00:34:32.805 --> 00:35:01.920
Well, there are different kinds of caching. Right? There's you've got caching, but then you also have indexing, and those are kinda 2 different things. Indexing is a particular cache, but it's meant to help you find the content in other places. Caching is is like a more more comprehensive scenario. And then there's stuff like search, which is a different interface for the same data, and that is a whole different set of trade offs. But, you know, like, the indexing part of it is really important. And I think the best solution we have for indexing so far is purple pages,

408
00:35:02.619 --> 00:35:03.680
which Pablo made.

409
00:35:04.220 --> 00:35:11.485
And that just kinda looks around and grabs 10,000 twos and zeros and threes. Is that right, Pablo? That's right. Yep.

410
00:35:11.945 --> 00:35:13.645
So you can pretty reliably,

411
00:35:14.789 --> 00:35:16.630
look at Purple Pages to grab,

412
00:35:17.349 --> 00:35:29.295
the list of relays that any given user posts to and then go there for their actual posts. And And that means that Purple Pages doesn't have to be super huge. It doesn't have to keep these giant indexes of Zap counts and all this stuff.

413
00:35:29.970 --> 00:35:33.270
And, you know, the the primal caching server is just too thick,

414
00:35:33.890 --> 00:35:35.430
and it doesn't need to be thick.

415
00:35:36.565 --> 00:35:39.785
Hey. Where does how does purple pages get its data?

416
00:35:40.885 --> 00:35:43.305
It's just it's just indexing. I wrote an indexer,

417
00:35:43.640 --> 00:35:49.820
but it's only getting those kinds and storing them. And for the longest time So it's it's copying events?

418
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:53.625
Yeah. Yeah. It's just copying events. Now a lot of people publish to them,

419
00:35:54.165 --> 00:35:56.665
so it all it only accepts 03,110,002.

420
00:35:58.405 --> 00:36:02.585
But, yeah, for the longest time, I was running it on a $5 VPS just to prove the point.

421
00:36:03.109 --> 00:36:09.289
Then I realized that I was the only one that knew that it wasn't a $5 VPS, but it's a very, very But now we all know.

422
00:36:09.670 --> 00:36:17.195
Now we now we all yeah. Trust me. But, I actually moved into my main relay because I was thinking I'm spending $5 for nothing here.

423
00:36:17.975 --> 00:36:26.539
No. I'm gonna change I'm gonna change my code to refresh relay lists way more often than so we can bring your VPS down a little. Wait. Wait. Let's just go.

424
00:36:27.640 --> 00:36:34.345
So let's just bring it back to real world. And first of all, you know, is Pablo's relay a small relay? Like, I saw, like, Dorsey

425
00:36:34.725 --> 00:36:40.200
switched his relay list, and then he added Pablo's relay. Like, is this all just a conspiracy to, like, get him over to your

426
00:36:40.680 --> 00:36:45.180
relay? Like, why is your relay considered a small relay? I feel like that's a big relay.

427
00:36:47.335 --> 00:36:57.619
I'll do profit. Yeah. I I just I just want to censor all caps of ale. It's not about profit. It's about censoring a billionaire. Like, it's there's there's it's enjoyable. That's the end game. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely.

428
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.460
So No. I do wanna say that that big relays are not bad.

429
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.265
This is not about using only small relays. Big relays have,

430
00:37:05.744 --> 00:37:06.724
plenty of utility.

431
00:37:07.825 --> 00:37:19.820
They they do support some of those optimizations. So if you post to a big relay and you're not censored, then everyone can just connect to the one relay and get everything they need. That's fine, but it should be treated as an optimization, not as a default.

432
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.620
It it just needs to be possible

433
00:37:22.985 --> 00:37:33.319
for clients to find people who have been banned from the big relays. Yeah. Yeah. Let's And that's not a heavy lift, really. Well, let I mean, let's yeah, go on. Let me put that slightly different. Mike.

434
00:37:33.940 --> 00:37:44.155
I'll put that a little bit different and say, you know, I don't actually think we should all be getting on the small relays. I don't think we should all be spreading out, and everybody's setting up their own small relays. Good.

435
00:37:44.875 --> 00:37:51.450
I think we should all generally, you know I don't know how many 20, 30 relays is plenty. We've got a lot more than that now,

436
00:37:52.390 --> 00:37:54.490
you know, because they're not all gonna get censored.

437
00:37:56.069 --> 00:37:58.970
They might. When when something starts happening,

438
00:37:59.735 --> 00:38:04.075
people are gonna have to jump the ship of those relays and go set up new ones.

439
00:38:04.535 --> 00:38:14.020
And you need to have some process where that automatically, you just keep following them. And that's what this outbox does. So I mean, yeah, there's some It's it's it needs to be possible

440
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.860
to set up smaller guys, but what doesn't mean we should all be doing that right now?

441
00:38:18.285 --> 00:38:22.705
There's some helpful back of the envelope math I did yesterday that kinda puts this this situation

442
00:38:23.085 --> 00:38:34.485
in a little bit clearer terms. So if if if you have a 10% chance of being censored from any given relay, if you connect to 1 relay, then you have a 10% chance of being censored. If you connect to 2 relays and,

443
00:38:34.805 --> 00:38:39.065
you have a 10% chance being censored from either one, you now have a 1% chance.

444
00:38:39.650 --> 00:38:43.910
If it's 3, you have a point 1 percent chance. 4 is point 0 1% chance. So

445
00:38:44.369 --> 00:38:45.170
you you,

446
00:38:45.809 --> 00:38:51.845
small amounts of redundancy go a really long way towards censorship resistance. That math is very wrong because there's censorship.

447
00:38:52.545 --> 00:39:03.420
If you're a per a person that's likely to be banned from one relay, you're more likely be been from all the others too. So Yeah. Yeah. But, like, only one of those has to be one that you run or that you trust.

448
00:39:03.720 --> 00:39:13.704
So, like and that's that's totally, like, ignoring any kind of relay selection heuristics. If you're naive and you just, like, choose whatever relays, that's that's, like, your worst case scenario.

449
00:39:14.349 --> 00:39:14.849
So,

450
00:39:16.190 --> 00:39:25.845
but, like, you know, the way blaster works is it's it's sending your notes to 100 of relays. And now you have a 10 to the negative 300th power chance of being,

451
00:39:27.025 --> 00:39:29.845
censored, and no one needs that. Like, it's not worth,

452
00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:44.654
you know, storing those notes in in so many duplicates. Well, I mean, I think the biggest issue here is, like, we don't have spicy enough content on Nostra yet. Like, people should be trying to push the envelope. Like, there's there's not much sensor worthy material out there yet.

453
00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:54.810
And I feel like I don't wanna see anything worse than what I've seen. I I feel like you start we'll start to see like, it's all about incentives. Right? And so it's not only about incentives. Like, it's about,

454
00:39:55.305 --> 00:39:59.085
like, open systems only really evolve and improve with pressure.

455
00:39:59.705 --> 00:40:04.680
And it's it's we haven't really seen any kind of censorship pressure, and it's hard for me to imagine,

456
00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:12.695
you know, making substantive changes or clients improving or user behavior improving until, like, people actually are getting

457
00:40:13.955 --> 00:40:15.655
censored from major relays.

458
00:40:17.075 --> 00:40:23.339
Well, we don't have enough people we don't have enough people using also, but we should be prepared for when that happens. So,

459
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:30.765
no one's being censored. I'm not being censored by the big relays even though I choose to only post through the small relay.

460
00:40:31.625 --> 00:40:33.885
Yeah. And then You need spicier content.

461
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:36.940
What kind of spicier content? That's

462
00:40:38.060 --> 00:40:39.360
I can't think of anything.

463
00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:45.174
Wait. So let's talk about a real world example. Right? Real world example,

464
00:40:46.914 --> 00:40:54.430
Will woke up hungover one day. It was like, holy shit. Like, this video of me on Noster is super embarrassing. Just deleted the whole Domus relay.

465
00:40:54.810 --> 00:40:57.285
Biggest relay in the world. Just decided

466
00:40:57.585 --> 00:41:01.045
decided you wanted to delete the relay. Were any notes lost?

467
00:41:02.145 --> 00:41:05.204
Probably not. I think there were some note notes lost. Yes.

468
00:41:05.590 --> 00:41:08.250
I think so. I've had a harder time finding things at least.

469
00:41:09.190 --> 00:41:20.635
But that doesn't matter. It was only old notes that were Is this theoretical? Is this theoretical or did that that didn't happen? Right? No. He did. He did it in November, I think. October, something like that. Maybe he did do it recently as well. But

470
00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:24.680
he literally just woke up in the morning and was, like, fuck this shit. Delete.

471
00:41:25.060 --> 00:41:26.520
Just deleted the relay.

472
00:41:27.140 --> 00:41:29.960
And I I didn't notice any notes lost. I mean,

473
00:41:30.565 --> 00:41:33.945
if a note was lost and you didn't notice, did it actually get lost?

474
00:41:36.965 --> 00:41:38.825
I can't find my first note anymore.

475
00:41:39.359 --> 00:41:43.859
So that's what you should've used blaster. Maybe you should've posted it to as many relays as possible.

476
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:56.760
I do have an archival relay. I don't know what else. People, even if there's no outbox model, most people, they're they're configuring more than one relay. And so the note if one relay goes down, doesn't get lost.

477
00:41:57.460 --> 00:42:00.120
And then on top of that, you've got things like blaster

478
00:42:00.660 --> 00:42:02.520
or even clients that copy

479
00:42:03.155 --> 00:42:05.175
other people's notes from relay to relay,

480
00:42:06.435 --> 00:42:09.815
that sort of replicate that stuff. And so it's kind of like we're all,

481
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:13.700
you know, it's kinda like we're riding bicycles with training wheels on.

482
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:14.980
And,

483
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:16.020
you know,

484
00:42:17.414 --> 00:42:20.474
we we don't know who's actually able to ride a bicycle

485
00:42:21.174 --> 00:42:25.194
because we can't I can't see if my software was working or not because,

486
00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:26.369
you know, it just

487
00:42:26.670 --> 00:42:28.130
the problems get patched

488
00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:43.940
by this this event copying. I mean, it it it solves real problems. Right? But then we don't know the problems are there, so we can't fix them. So it'd be really nice if there wasn't any event copying because then we could easily see that your my client's not working, and and then we'd fix it.

489
00:42:44.980 --> 00:42:47.000
But I don't know how to make that world happen.

490
00:42:47.540 --> 00:42:50.760
Yeah. Well, it's it's interesting because you can't stop blaster. Like,

491
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:53.400
unless relays choose to protect themselves,

492
00:42:53.825 --> 00:42:57.845
by authenticating who's writing to them, then Blaster is just part of the

493
00:42:58.305 --> 00:42:59.045
the situation.

494
00:42:59.345 --> 00:43:02.964
And, like, I agree with Mike. It would be a lot easier to solve,

495
00:43:03.660 --> 00:43:06.080
the these outbox model problems,

496
00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:08.880
from the client side if we didn't have blaster.

497
00:43:09.180 --> 00:43:26.640
So it would be nice if blaster would would cut it out for a while so we can feel the pain. Because you were saying, like, you know, you experience pressure and then you solve the problem. We're not experiencing the pain that exists as, like, a core part of the protocol. And I'm I'm pretty sure, like, Tony doesn't believe in Nostra as, like,

498
00:43:27.184 --> 00:43:34.885
a censorship resistant long term solution. I think he said that in his blog post from last year when he joined. So, you know, does he does what they have?

499
00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:38.750
Does he? Oh, man. Well, that says everything, I guess.

500
00:43:40.090 --> 00:43:48.545
But, like so he's not incentivized. He's not interested in solving this problem, which is fine. Like, you know, he he's, we need cats to knock things over.

501
00:43:49.085 --> 00:43:57.900
So now we have to figure out how do we react to blaster? How do we how do we I don't think even blaster is the is the worst culprit. Like, I think people will naturally

502
00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:00.620
select the big rebate, like nos.lawanddemos,

503
00:44:02.515 --> 00:44:09.895
nos. Wine, and then they will just publish to these and read from these, and this will happen naturally. And the network will centralize naturally without.

504
00:44:10.350 --> 00:44:12.450
And if you're if you're not in these, then

505
00:44:13.310 --> 00:44:16.050
then then you're not heard. And and people can also

506
00:44:16.510 --> 00:44:17.730
rebroadcast manually.

507
00:44:18.035 --> 00:44:23.415
Like, I think there were some bots that were broadcasting stuff. Like, the the the primal the primal

508
00:44:24.115 --> 00:44:28.280
service has some kind of listener that listens to all the relays in existence.

509
00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:36.935
And there are there were there were many other bots in the past that were not blaster. They were just broadcasting stuff.

510
00:44:37.395 --> 00:44:37.895
So

511
00:44:38.275 --> 00:44:40.214
it's not it's not Tony's fault.

512
00:44:41.470 --> 00:44:42.850
Blame Tony. But I

513
00:44:44.030 --> 00:44:50.525
Yeah. And and and, broadcasting has a lot of good use cases too. So, like, even in the NIP 65 spec, it says,

514
00:44:51.645 --> 00:44:55.184
kind 10,002 should be broadcasted as aggressively as possible.

515
00:44:55.565 --> 00:44:56.704
And most relays,

516
00:44:57.484 --> 00:45:01.780
can afford to keep an index of of those, Even if there's 9,000,000,000

517
00:45:02.080 --> 00:45:10.575
of them, like, that is not a huge relay. It's it's a fairly big relay to store 9,000,000,000 records, but it's like, that actually does scale,

518
00:45:11.035 --> 00:45:12.015
reasonably well.

519
00:45:12.795 --> 00:45:22.559
So broadcasting that kind of stuff so that you can find the actual content you're looking for, that's a great trade off. Well, but, like, I mean, first of all, let's unpack this really quick. Like, blaster is

520
00:45:23.019 --> 00:45:25.519
is is this relay that's hosted at noster.munitywallet.com.

521
00:45:27.075 --> 00:45:31.175
And if you broadcast to that, it broadcasts to every known relay.

522
00:45:31.555 --> 00:45:36.214
And if if that relay will accept your notes, it accepts your notes, and now you're on that relay.

523
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:41.580
From a user perspective, like, once again, coming back to incentives. Right?

524
00:45:43.080 --> 00:45:43.980
As a user

525
00:45:44.665 --> 00:45:54.205
who is actually in like, wants to use Nostra as a censorship resistant communication medium, a way for me to connect directly to the people I care about,

526
00:45:55.290 --> 00:45:55.790
without

527
00:45:56.090 --> 00:45:56.590
without

528
00:45:56.970 --> 00:46:00.190
being censored and being blocked and and and being stopped.

529
00:46:01.130 --> 00:46:05.295
Isn't my incentive to broadcast to as many relays as possible? Like, I don't understand

530
00:46:06.075 --> 00:46:15.970
like, I understand you guys trying to make a point about, you know, you should use small like, I I broadcast to a small relay, relay dot bitcoinpark.com. Like, only members of Bitcoin Park

531
00:46:16.270 --> 00:46:29.785
can write to that relay. But then I also broadcast to any fucking relay that will accept my notes. And if they don't wanna accept my notes, they shouldn't accept my notes. But if they're gonna accept my notes, like, I want that seed to spread as far and wide as possible.

532
00:46:30.829 --> 00:46:33.069
Yeah. Exactly. It's it it doesn't seem

533
00:46:33.790 --> 00:46:42.165
You want that seed time person to get here. It's sorry. Go ahead. Oh, really? You're gonna just do that to me on my own show? I'll explain it. I'll explain it. But go ahead, Pablo.

534
00:46:42.465 --> 00:46:51.130
No. No. No. You go ahead. Explain it. Okay. Yeah. So it's it's it's high time preference behavior. You're you're taking advantage of free resources that other people are providing,

535
00:46:51.990 --> 00:47:06.020
to serve your own, your own interests. And, like, yeah, those resources are there. They're not protecting themselves. So I think that's how how, like, blaster eventually dies is relays realize, you know, I need a way to not have to scale my VPS

536
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:18.670
past $20 a month. And so I guess I'll upgrade to a relay implementation that allows me to protect myself. So and that introduces its own problems. It's kinda it it is interesting. If you if you say, I'm only accepting

537
00:47:28.184 --> 00:47:29.724
like, that's a Relay's prerogative,

538
00:47:30.025 --> 00:47:33.005
and that is gonna result in Relay's having different datasets,

539
00:47:33.305 --> 00:47:37.565
which is going to make it impossible for blaster to function, and it's going to incentivize

540
00:47:38.250 --> 00:47:45.690
the, the outbox model. So, like, over the long term, that's just what's gonna happen. It's that we need to, like, build this now and,

541
00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:49.545
blaster makes it kinda hard and relays that accept public notes.

542
00:47:51.685 --> 00:47:54.665
So you want less relays to accept public notes?

543
00:47:55.150 --> 00:47:57.730
Yeah. I've always been about that. Relay decommodification

544
00:47:58.030 --> 00:48:04.130
is what I call it. And it's like, you know, Fia Jaff has talked about this too, but it's, making relays interesting.

545
00:48:04.555 --> 00:48:10.255
You know, right now, it's like, if I wanna join a relay, it's like, well, I'll choose the one with the lowest ping

546
00:48:10.795 --> 00:48:24.735
and the fastest response times and the biggest database. That it's all like computational characteristics that that inform relay selections right now. But if it's like, well, I wanna talk about, you know, like, I don't know, Dustin Hoffman

547
00:48:25.035 --> 00:48:25.535
podcast.

548
00:48:26.155 --> 00:48:31.775
Bitcoin Park. That's a better example. I don't know. I don't know why Dustin Hoffman hopped hopped in my head, but like very specific.

549
00:48:32.260 --> 00:48:34.840
Very telling. R r slash Dustin Hoffman.

550
00:48:35.460 --> 00:48:36.280
Very specific,

551
00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:38.500
you know, areas of interest.

552
00:48:39.060 --> 00:48:40.795
You know, relays can support that,

553
00:48:41.835 --> 00:48:43.835
if if the owner is,

554
00:48:44.555 --> 00:48:44.875
is,

555
00:48:45.434 --> 00:48:47.775
aligned with with that interest. Right?

556
00:48:50.290 --> 00:48:54.870
Yeah. I don't see I don't see how relays are going to just allow anybody

557
00:48:55.410 --> 00:48:56.070
to post,

558
00:48:56.565 --> 00:48:57.065
some

559
00:48:58.244 --> 00:49:02.025
some will will abuse that and just fill it up with a bunch of junk events

560
00:49:02.484 --> 00:49:04.105
or use it as a disk drive,

561
00:49:04.405 --> 00:49:04.984
you know,

562
00:49:05.329 --> 00:49:11.750
You know, put take a movie and slice it into a 1,000,000,000 pieces of different events and stick them all up there to share movies.

563
00:49:13.035 --> 00:49:17.855
There's gonna have to be you know, paid relays is where it's moving towards, I think.

564
00:49:20.395 --> 00:49:22.335
And so there needs you know?

565
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:26.700
I don't know where I was going with that.

566
00:49:27.160 --> 00:49:31.020
I mean I mean, I guess your point is paid relays are gonna be more of a thing.

567
00:49:31.905 --> 00:49:35.925
But I assume not, like, pay once because that also doesn't seem to make sense.

568
00:49:36.305 --> 00:49:44.750
Yeah. We need some pay once the pay once thing was supposed to be about spam, like, you're not you're not accepting notes for anyone. It's not it is never supposed to be

569
00:49:45.530 --> 00:49:48.270
a business model. I don't know why people thought that.

570
00:49:49.130 --> 00:49:50.955
It's just an interest payment mechanism.

571
00:49:52.295 --> 00:50:00.850
But there are all kinds of ways to make special purpose relays. Like, paying is one one way. There's, you know, relays might wanna pull in particular kinds of content,

572
00:50:01.470 --> 00:50:11.015
to preserve it. There might be archival relays that only accept notes after a certain period, or there might be up to date relays that only accept new notes and then purge their cash.

573
00:50:11.395 --> 00:50:13.335
There might be relays that represent,

574
00:50:13.714 --> 00:50:27.875
actual communities. So based on, a social graph, you can just have, like, a seed pub key and everyone they follow. I mean, pyramid is a good example of this. There's relays that only accept certain kinds. So purple pages is an example of that. They all have functions,

575
00:50:28.335 --> 00:50:30.674
and we need a way to differentiate one from another,

576
00:50:31.460 --> 00:50:36.040
both on a, like, client level and on a user level so that people can make intelligent selections.

577
00:50:36.500 --> 00:50:41.695
And, obviously, like, this shouldn't be offloaded onto users because that's a terrible user experience.

578
00:50:42.715 --> 00:50:44.895
But, you know, the the network should

579
00:50:45.195 --> 00:50:46.255
sort of partition,

580
00:50:46.715 --> 00:50:47.215
naturally,

581
00:50:47.850 --> 00:50:50.190
as people use different things for different purposes.

582
00:50:50.570 --> 00:50:51.070
So

583
00:50:53.370 --> 00:50:57.070
Yeah. There's some problems with with this, especially the user experience

584
00:50:57.835 --> 00:51:03.295
and how do they know which use which relays to choose for their outbox or for their inbox.

585
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:05.660
New users

586
00:51:06.040 --> 00:51:10.140
are probably gonna wanna sign up somewhere that doesn't charge them,

587
00:51:11.160 --> 00:51:13.900
but then you have an open relay again, which can be abused.

588
00:51:15.505 --> 00:51:22.484
And then for an inbox, well, if if I wanna accept, how do you make it so that your relay accepts any note that tags you?

589
00:51:23.425 --> 00:51:24.085
I mean,

590
00:51:25.150 --> 00:51:32.130
what I did in the Chorus relay was this. It you relay accepts any note that tags you, but doesn't send it back out again, so it's can't be abused.

591
00:51:32.505 --> 00:51:39.644
And then the moderator has to actually say that, okay, anything from this user or or any of these notes is allowed to go back out again,

592
00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:45.859
so that it could still be an inbox without without opening up that that abuse possibility.

593
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:48.820
But this is difficult, you know,

594
00:51:49.435 --> 00:51:52.095
figuring out how to get the relays right is a whole another

595
00:51:52.475 --> 00:51:55.195
whole another challenge. It's that's quite difficult. But

596
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:07.875
Yeah. And then there's monetization, of course. You know, we've talked about the cost side a little bit where small relays get bloated with a bunch of useless content, and then that increases their cost. But relay monetization

597
00:52:08.655 --> 00:52:20.070
is an unsolved problem for the most part, especially for these, like, public bootstrapping relays, where if you got a new user and they wanna join the network, they do need, like, a public right thing like domus or no.law.

598
00:52:20.849 --> 00:52:21.250
And,

599
00:52:21.935 --> 00:52:28.835
you know, how those relays actually make money. It has to be attached to some other business and, like, may maybe to a client,

600
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:42.474
but I'm not sure how that what that would look like. I mean, like, Bitcoin Park is simple. It's like, okay. They're members of Bitcoin. And, like, community realize I mean, I know how about you a lot of your perspective is like, I want to move my church group off of Facebook Messenger.

601
00:52:43.655 --> 00:52:53.970
It's like a church group is like a very easy like, of course, like a community relay, like, that makes sense to me. There's other funding mechanisms, and this is just one value add that the community organizer,

602
00:52:55.070 --> 00:52:56.290
whatnot is offering.

603
00:52:57.075 --> 00:53:00.115
Yeah. That can be an on ramp for sorry, Pablo. One

604
00:53:00.595 --> 00:53:02.375
that can be an on ramp for certain people,

605
00:53:02.755 --> 00:53:03.795
but not for everyone.

606
00:53:04.115 --> 00:53:10.330
Go ahead, Pablo. Okay. But play play that part out. Play that case where you onboard your church,

607
00:53:10.630 --> 00:53:12.230
and they are in tune after their party

608
00:53:13.125 --> 00:53:16.425
participating in the community with with the the the churchgoers

609
00:53:16.725 --> 00:53:18.265
within that church community,

610
00:53:18.725 --> 00:53:35.215
but they start using Nostar beyond that community. And they're writing to their church relay stuff that is more public, so kind ones, global post, the Twitter, the micro blogging experience. But now because they're not writing to Deimos Relay, because they weren't onboarded via demos, they weren't onboarded via primal,

611
00:53:36.234 --> 00:53:39.535
they maybe maybe their their events are blasted outside.

612
00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:45.220
But now if they're using demos, for example, they're not gonna see responses to their content.

613
00:53:45.520 --> 00:53:55.224
So this is the part if you play out the part where a bunch of communities onboard people into Nostr, that's when the outbox model becomes even more and more and more clear.

614
00:53:58.470 --> 00:54:00.010
Yeah. I totally agree with that.

615
00:54:00.789 --> 00:54:04.635
Yeah. And, like, even if your community relay has public read,

616
00:54:05.115 --> 00:54:08.815
and your 10,002s are replicated across the network as they should be,

617
00:54:09.275 --> 00:54:11.215
if if you have a client that doesn't support,

618
00:54:12.315 --> 00:54:15.260
support the the outbox model, it's not gonna see stuff,

619
00:54:15.720 --> 00:54:19.500
unless it gets blasted, and then, you know, we're back kind of in the same situation we're in now.

620
00:54:20.095 --> 00:54:24.115
Yeah. Unless unless it get no. No. But unless it gets blasted. But if the community

621
00:54:24.494 --> 00:54:29.714
relay that you're running for your church is right protected as it should be, then replies

622
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:31.700
might not go into the relay.

623
00:54:32.560 --> 00:54:33.060
Right?

624
00:54:33.520 --> 00:54:34.340
Right. Yeah.

625
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:41.535
And you follow say say you follow Matt, but Matt is not part of that church. Now you're reading only from the community relay,

626
00:54:41.995 --> 00:54:45.295
but you think you're following Matt. You just think that Matt Matt

627
00:54:45.675 --> 00:54:53.680
never posts anything. Well, I mean, I would Yeah. Exactly. As it stands right now, like, if they would accept my notes, I am broadcasting to their relay.

628
00:54:55.635 --> 00:54:58.855
Yeah. But that's we we established that this high time preference.

629
00:54:59.795 --> 00:55:01.575
No. No. No. No. No. No. It it it it it has

630
00:55:01.875 --> 00:55:04.110
even but even if But even

631
00:55:04.590 --> 00:55:08.290
right. It projects to right. And so even within that model It's so tight. Blaster

632
00:55:08.830 --> 00:55:18.335
blaster Yeah. Publishes to the top 300 relays. So it gets from Nosto dot watch, it gets the 300 most popular relays, and it blasts everything to those 300 relays.

633
00:55:18.875 --> 00:55:19.855
But as relays

634
00:55:21.240 --> 00:55:23.180
as relays protect themselves

635
00:55:23.720 --> 00:55:30.535
and say, hey. I'm a special purpose relay. I only deal with certain things. You know? I've got my personal relay. It only accepts events from me

636
00:55:30.995 --> 00:55:32.455
or events to tag me.

637
00:55:32.755 --> 00:55:42.720
And so if blaster wants to put events there, and I keep seeing something keeps trying to put events there that have nothing to do with it, starting with a a really old event from FitchApp about Brandy.

638
00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:47.865
And it just keeps it just keeps blocking it. It says, no. That's not related. You know.

639
00:55:48.665 --> 00:55:51.565
Then blaster's not going to be able to put the events there.

640
00:55:52.585 --> 00:55:53.325
And then,

641
00:55:53.705 --> 00:55:58.150
you know, blaster doesn't fix the problem. You have to use the outbox model.

642
00:56:00.210 --> 00:56:01.590
One question I have is,

643
00:56:03.250 --> 00:56:04.390
imagine Notar

644
00:56:04.885 --> 00:56:07.224
succeeds and gets, like, a 1,000,000,000 users.

645
00:56:07.685 --> 00:56:11.305
Will there be free public relays like we have today?

646
00:56:11.605 --> 00:56:14.540
Yes. And who who will be running them? Well, Prime will

647
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:16.940
be will be running one of them for sure.

648
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:20.060
Yeah. People who wanna harvest data. Noster.band

649
00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:21.980
will probably be running 1.

650
00:56:25.315 --> 00:56:29.955
Okay. I didn't have a follow-up for that. I think you you really don't need to be able to support,

651
00:56:30.675 --> 00:56:31.335
for businesses

652
00:56:32.030 --> 00:56:43.704
that that need that data. Right? So they'll host the relay. They'll suck in the data because everyone's posting to it, and then they'll power things like paid search or paid recommendations. And, like, Hootsuite and shit. Like, okay. I'm Coca Cola,

653
00:56:44.165 --> 00:56:47.464
and I wanna know, like, how my new product is is being

654
00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:48.840
discussed on,

655
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:52.380
on Noster, and I I need to see a full

656
00:56:53.240 --> 00:56:55.420
a full view of the network as a result.

657
00:56:57.315 --> 00:57:08.750
Like I do Yeah. Completely agree. I mean, it really starts as cost centers. For most cases, there's just gonna be cost centers attached to whatever Yeah. Product you're selling. The problem is is if there's only a few of them.

658
00:57:10.089 --> 00:57:15.335
Right? Like, I've Fiat, John, this is what you, like, originally sold me on a Nasr. It's like, it doesn't have to be decentralized.

659
00:57:15.714 --> 00:57:16.454
It just

660
00:57:17.234 --> 00:57:29.589
like, it it is it works because it's in a lot of ways, it's very centralized. But if if if there's not friction if there's not that much friction to move and there's not that much friction to run, you know, competing relays,

661
00:57:30.375 --> 00:57:31.435
then when censorship

662
00:57:31.895 --> 00:57:34.875
does rear its head, we can kind of route around it.

663
00:57:35.815 --> 00:57:37.355
Yes. Yes. That was the idea.

664
00:57:37.770 --> 00:57:41.070
But only only if you can find the relays where you're publishing

665
00:57:41.530 --> 00:57:45.310
or you move to. Right? If you cannot find the relay, then you're fucked.

666
00:57:45.885 --> 00:57:52.625
Okay. Besides calling me high time preference, because there's nothing high time preference about quitting Twitter and doing noster only,

667
00:57:53.165 --> 00:57:55.345
during the greatest bull market of all time.

668
00:57:57.410 --> 00:58:00.789
Like, there is no incentive for me not to

669
00:58:01.329 --> 00:58:09.744
broadcast my notes to every single relay that will accept me. Like, that is that is what any user that's concerned about censorship should be doing.

670
00:58:10.204 --> 00:58:27.815
That's fine. I'm predicting that the relays will over time not do that, not accept that anymore. And it's not it's not just the monetization that you guys are talking about, that relays are just a cost center, and only if someone wants to, you know, collect a bunch of data analysis that they would bother to run one, it's going to be the abuse.

671
00:58:28.490 --> 00:58:36.910
Because if you have an open relay that just allows anybody in there, that's are you gonna monitor everything that's going on? Or are you going how are you going to stop

672
00:58:37.675 --> 00:58:43.055
someone that writes a program that just generates random pub keys and start shoving things in there to try to take you down?

673
00:58:43.515 --> 00:58:44.015
So

674
00:58:44.609 --> 00:58:53.430
relays are going to have to defend themselves against abuse, and I think that's what's going to eventually close it all down and require people have to sign up for some service on SunRelay.

675
00:58:53.855 --> 00:58:55.155
Yeah. Even beginners.

676
00:58:55.935 --> 00:59:03.155
I that's just my prediction. I mean, I don't know how it's actually going to go, but I don't see how to stop that problem. At a fundamental level, it seems unstoppable.

677
00:59:07.030 --> 00:59:10.730
Yeah. I mean, you're right. You're right, Matt. Like, there is no incentive against

678
00:59:11.225 --> 00:59:18.365
blasting notes for individuals. And if you if you're care caring about getting something done today, growing your platform or reach or whatever,

679
00:59:18.665 --> 00:59:20.765
like, that's how you do it, and that's fine.

680
00:59:21.609 --> 00:59:25.690
But, like, maybe as a developer, you know, I just wanna be able to see my notes because

681
00:59:26.490 --> 00:59:30.305
yeah. But I I actually want people to not see my notes if gossip isn't working.

682
00:59:30.704 --> 00:59:33.125
Right? Because that will mean that

683
00:59:33.425 --> 00:59:39.204
and, you know, it it'll reduce my reach, and I my reach is, is probably reduced because I don't use any big relays.

684
00:59:40.080 --> 00:59:45.540
But that's okay because I feel the pain, and now I can be a squeaky wheel and and yell at Tony more often.

685
00:59:48.145 --> 00:59:50.945
Matt, there there is no ins there there is,

686
00:59:51.905 --> 01:00:00.050
how did you phrase it? There is incentive for you to run to use blaster, or there is no Well, I mean, let's take blaster out of this. When I had Mike on the show

687
01:00:00.830 --> 01:00:05.025
4 weeks ago, right, by default, I was connecting to 32 relays.

688
01:00:05.565 --> 01:00:09.745
Like, forget about blaster for a second. Right? It's like I'm using it on desktop.

689
01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:14.390
I wanna see everything, and I wanna be I I I don't wanna get censored.

690
01:00:15.170 --> 01:00:18.869
Right? It's like my incentive is to connect to as many relays as possible.

691
01:00:19.454 --> 01:00:21.555
But but that's only

692
01:00:22.255 --> 01:00:28.595
like, you are doing all these and it's fine because it's not a big problem, but you're doing this inefficient way of using Nostra

693
01:00:28.980 --> 01:00:49.040
just because most clients don't do it. Right? Right. Just because you're not using Outbox, you have to do it in this way. Right. And you find out about this new pleb who is on this other relay, and you add this other 33rd relay, and now you're requesting for everybody you follow from that relay as well. From all 33 relays you're requesting from everybody the same thing.

694
01:00:50.140 --> 01:00:56.285
And it and it's fine. It's not a big deal. It's a like, a little bit not as efficient as it could be, but who who cares?

695
01:00:57.545 --> 01:01:01.085
But the the the issue is that there there is,

696
01:01:01.785 --> 01:01:02.285
currently,

697
01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:04.800
there is an incentive to use,

698
01:01:05.200 --> 01:01:08.980
there is no incentive not to use plaster and to publish everything you want everywhere,

699
01:01:09.680 --> 01:01:11.140
but there is

700
01:01:12.525 --> 01:01:15.744
there is no incentive not to do it. There is no incentive because

701
01:01:16.525 --> 01:01:25.680
why wouldn't you? You want You might as well blast it. You might as well blast. Right? And you are going to be something out of it. This is why Jack banned himself,

702
01:01:26.380 --> 01:01:27.920
because he has an incentive

703
01:01:28.755 --> 01:01:33.415
to to make no store work in the long term. So he's he's much more sensitive to this,

704
01:01:33.875 --> 01:01:38.859
you know, whereas Matt has no incentive to, to make no story. How do I have no incentive?

705
01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:41.180
I have a huge incentive.

706
01:01:41.720 --> 01:01:51.845
I'm just kidding. But, like, you know, every person like shits and, like, the whole world knows he shits. Like, I I have a bigger incentive than than Dorothy does in terms of Every person who,

707
01:01:52.145 --> 01:01:53.890
maybe they're not the worst. Like, term.

708
01:01:54.369 --> 01:02:19.720
Every person who starts posting to small relays or and bans themselves from the big relays is is one more person that people What is a small relay? Like like Pablo's relay, like, connecting to Pablo's re does that really solve anything if we just all connect to Pablo's relay instead? No. No. We we shouldn't all do it. But right now, like, really interesting accounts who do post to, you know, not the top, like like, 15, let's say,

709
01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:21.400
those people are

710
01:02:21.860 --> 01:02:22.760
breaking domus

711
01:02:23.295 --> 01:02:24.835
by how they're using the protocol,

712
01:02:25.215 --> 01:02:39.840
and and Amethyst and anyone else, not to pick on Domus. But they're breaking things, they're breaking clients by putting their information somewhere that those clients are not gonna see it. And then people following them are gonna say, like, well, what's the deal? Like, why can't I see Jack's post? I follow him.

713
01:02:40.335 --> 01:02:55.940
It's well, it's the fault of the client that you're using. They're not using Nostra properly. So that's what I mean by, like, low time preference is saying, I'm not gonna build my platform right now. I'm not gonna let people see my notes so that long term, I have access to the censorship resistant protocol

714
01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:56.885
that,

715
01:02:57.765 --> 01:03:16.345
will ensure that my notes can be seen. So and and we have, like, Twitter. So just just cross post to Twitter. Be a blue check-in the meantime if you Are you really cross posting to Twitter during this whole process? No. No. I've I've deleted my Twitter account. Because that's really hypocritical. That's the biggest relay. I walked in. Oh, you're, like, you're cross posting to Twitter.

716
01:03:17.204 --> 01:03:23.650
No. But if you have, like, a business you need to run, like, post to Twitter because no sir is not ready for you yet. No. Nostra only.

717
01:03:24.190 --> 01:03:25.410
Lower your time preference.

718
01:03:26.190 --> 01:03:26.690
Okay.

719
01:03:26.990 --> 01:03:39.445
Blast all the relays. Well, yeah, good question you're asking right now, like, what's a small relay? I've seen a lot of people asking these questions since we proposed that Jack and Odell started publishing through small relays.

720
01:03:40.710 --> 01:03:46.809
And some people are interested in doing that, but then they ask, what's a small relay? I don't think that that question

721
01:03:47.995 --> 01:03:49.115
is easy to answer, but,

722
01:03:49.835 --> 01:04:04.070
it's it's basically the one relay that people don't know and they're not configured by default. But I don't think people should be searching. I don't think that's the correct way to use Nasr. Like, you open a list of relays and then you choose 1. I I don't think that's a good idea. Like, you you should

723
01:04:05.135 --> 01:04:05.955
in a normal

724
01:04:06.255 --> 01:04:11.795
way, in in a world in which Notar is successful, you could you should, like, already know some relays.

725
01:04:12.190 --> 01:04:15.650
Like, when you join Allstar, you'll join through a relay or

726
01:04:16.750 --> 01:04:20.290
through someone that invited you and pointed you to a relay

727
01:04:20.685 --> 01:04:41.905
of a community or something like that. Like, the client should handle it, basically, for the most part. No. No. Someone should invite you. Yep. And then you get to the client and the client points you to the relay of the people, like the person who invited you. Something like that. I don't know. Maybe a local relay. I don't know. What happens when someone joins Twitter for the first time?

728
01:04:42.525 --> 01:04:43.025
Like,

729
01:04:43.484 --> 01:04:50.940
people was was always people were always asking, like, how do I get how do I know who to follow when I first joined Oscar?

730
01:04:51.720 --> 01:04:55.339
I don't know because, like, this is the same question. Like, what relate do I pick?

731
01:04:56.425 --> 01:04:59.805
When you first join Twitter, and if you don't know anyone,

732
01:05:00.265 --> 01:05:03.005
like, you just follow a bunch of NPC accounts

733
01:05:03.410 --> 01:05:04.069
from media

734
01:05:04.450 --> 01:05:08.069
people. Like, that's not the experience people like on Twitter.

735
01:05:08.609 --> 01:05:09.109
So

736
01:05:09.650 --> 01:05:14.765
you you should join the thing already knowing something. I think that's the natural way that will happen

737
01:05:15.145 --> 01:05:15.805
in the future.

738
01:05:16.345 --> 01:05:17.325
So whatever.

739
01:05:18.744 --> 01:05:21.100
We have some nippo 5 maxis in the chat.

740
01:05:21.580 --> 01:05:23.120
Yeah. Speaking clearly,

741
01:05:23.500 --> 01:05:27.280
why can't we use nipo 5 relay list to advertise where to find our notes? All caps.

742
01:05:27.740 --> 01:05:31.765
The answer is, we should. Like, that's that's part of clients,

743
01:05:32.625 --> 01:05:47.630
bootstrapping, basically, you know. If you're given an NPUB I mean, sorry, if you're given an a a NIPIFYB address, then you you should have relays that you can start with, and then you don't have to consult an indexer or something like that. NIPO 5 is just an indexer solution that works over HTTP and DNS

744
01:05:47.974 --> 01:05:49.275
rather than over relays.

745
01:05:50.055 --> 01:05:54.315
But then everyone's just gonna use, like, the primal nippo 5. Like, how does that solve shit?

746
01:05:54.615 --> 01:05:55.835
It doesn't solve shit.

747
01:05:56.760 --> 01:06:03.180
Well, hopefully, primal will allow you to set your relay, like, it like, nifa fives should mirror your 10,002's.

748
01:06:04.445 --> 01:06:07.996
Most people are not 50% sensitive. Most

749
01:06:08.685 --> 01:06:29.565
we need the content the content needs to be spicier. I think the I think the big issue is, like, there's not enough sensible content. Like, if there's more sensible content, then we'll fucking figure it out. Go go browse global go browse global on a Japanese relay and then come back to me. No. Don't global's a straight point. You don't check global. You never check global. Primal, you can't even view global on primal.

750
01:06:30.990 --> 01:06:36.210
Doesn't because you you are screen I've never seen Your computer would crash. I have I've still never seen global.

751
01:06:37.070 --> 01:06:38.850
Don't do it. Don't do

752
01:06:39.855 --> 01:06:44.434
it. Yeah. Connect to 32 relays and then click the global tab. That's a horrible idea.

753
01:06:47.230 --> 01:06:50.990
So you're saying that, people who actually have some sort of,

754
01:06:51.630 --> 01:06:57.335
following should spoo should post spicier content. No. No. No. I'm not sure what spicier than, like, Jack posting,

755
01:06:58.035 --> 01:07:03.850
everything is a rich man's game. Okay. Jack hasn't posted anything spicy. It's not spicy enough yet.

756
01:07:04.410 --> 01:07:07.790
I I look. I think I think that Noster

757
01:07:08.090 --> 01:07:14.165
You wanna start the censorship early so that we can fix it early. Noster's gonna have, like, it's Alex Jones moment.

758
01:07:14.865 --> 01:07:19.205
And we I like, we can, you know, have these super technical conversations,

759
01:07:19.665 --> 01:07:20.165
and

760
01:07:20.589 --> 01:07:30.725
Pablo can ship, like, a 1000000 different fucking projects, and, like, all this different theoretical conversation can happen. But, like, it's not going nothing of of substance is gonna change

761
01:07:31.585 --> 01:07:34.885
until we have, you know, a fire rod

762
01:07:35.265 --> 01:07:42.150
that gets censored off of all centralized social media that moves to Noster that could starts getting centralized on the major relays,

763
01:07:42.530 --> 01:07:45.750
and then there's, like, actually pressure to, like, change things.

764
01:07:46.445 --> 01:07:56.700
I think the problem with that is the major relays right now are run by people who care about censorship resistance, and so they're not gonna censor very much. The precondition for that not a problem. That's good.

765
01:07:57.400 --> 01:08:00.380
Yeah. But but the precondition for people get getting banned

766
01:08:00.815 --> 01:08:11.849
is bringing people in who wanna make money, and so they run a huge relay and outcompete everyone because they wanna make money, and then they wanna make money, and then they ban people. So we need to, like, get giant,

767
01:08:12.170 --> 01:08:18.270
companies that, that wanna censor us on the Dosto first. Maybe, maybe threads is the beginning. I don't know.

768
01:08:22.665 --> 01:08:30.540
The thing is is if we go through that test, if there was, like, a court order saying, Will, you have to censor this pop key. Like,

769
01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:32.540
we would fail the test

770
01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:33.820
so hard

771
01:08:34.440 --> 01:08:38.235
unnecessarily, but we would fucking fail it so hard. It will be

772
01:08:39.015 --> 01:08:39.995
laughing stuff.

773
01:08:40.935 --> 01:08:44.715
Like, Bitcoin was used by Wiki p by, WikiLeaks.

774
01:08:45.015 --> 01:08:52.330
Right? Like, they were able to use it. Right. We would not be able to sustain an attack, like, not even a little bit.

775
01:08:53.190 --> 01:08:55.115
Unless everyone uses that account. Use that?

776
01:08:57.115 --> 01:08:59.375
Alright. I mean, look at Pierre Chefs' test.

777
01:08:59.995 --> 01:09:02.095
Just I saw all the tests.

778
01:09:03.250 --> 01:09:03.750
Afterwards?

779
01:09:04.290 --> 01:09:05.830
No. While it was at the hospital

780
01:09:06.210 --> 01:09:08.469
What if primal what if primal had received a court order?

781
01:09:09.305 --> 01:09:15.405
Then I would be I would be like, primal received a court order to censor fiatjaf. Like, stop using fucking primal.

782
01:09:16.320 --> 01:09:25.540
You know you know, Humble and Locust, these 2 big platforms there, they don't serve any content to Brazil anymore because they received court orders from Brazil

783
01:09:25.945 --> 01:09:30.125
asking them to censor some specific people. So they shut down the entire site for Brazil.

784
01:09:30.905 --> 01:09:33.885
I think they did the the most honorable thing possible,

785
01:09:35.540 --> 01:09:37.640
And, well, people are still using them

786
01:09:38.020 --> 01:09:42.120
on the United States, IMS, I guess. People who are very

787
01:09:44.325 --> 01:09:46.585
mindful about this censorship stuff.

788
01:09:48.405 --> 01:09:50.585
Which platform was that you said did that?

789
01:09:51.110 --> 01:09:53.050
Humble and Locos.

790
01:09:53.909 --> 01:10:01.395
Oh, right. Yeah. It's it's called Humble. So they're not they're not Humble. Humble. Humble. Humble. Right? I don't know if you Zoho. Okay. Don't make fun of me.

791
01:10:02.335 --> 01:10:06.835
I wasn't making fun of you. I was like, shit. There's a platform named Humble, and I didn't know about that.

792
01:10:07.590 --> 01:10:10.010
It's it's basically the same thing. Right?

793
01:10:10.950 --> 01:10:16.635
That's that's why I asked. I thought that's what you said, but I couldn't if I tell. You should rebrand those here to Humble. Yeah.

794
01:10:17.175 --> 01:10:18.074
That's a great

795
01:10:18.535 --> 01:10:23.195
What did we call it? Or making fun of Wait. Instead of the outbox protocol, Humble protocol.

796
01:10:23.880 --> 01:10:26.619
I like it. There you go. I like it. Just fucking go.

797
01:10:27.159 --> 01:10:28.219
It's a thing now.

798
01:10:29.320 --> 01:10:31.340
Stay on humble and snack stats.

799
01:10:32.205 --> 01:10:44.350
But, I mean, look, Theo Jeff, that's, like, a perfect example. Right? It's like there is a bunch of people that actually believe that Rumble is censorship resistant, and then their whole country gets banned from it. And they're like, oh, no. It's not. We need to improve the situation.

800
01:10:44.810 --> 01:10:55.114
But until that happened, no one was gonna improve the situation. I have a reply guy on Noster who fucking loves Rumble. He's, like, constantly telling me, like, caps are not not okay. Like, I shouldn't do like,

801
01:10:55.655 --> 01:11:00.830
he calls me a retard. It's like, oh, well, you're the reply guy to the retard, so who's the fucking retard? You know?

802
01:11:06.005 --> 01:11:09.065
People believe rumble is censorship resistant until it's not.

803
01:11:09.445 --> 01:11:12.040
Like, that's I have the same thing with with Gabb.

804
01:11:12.580 --> 01:11:18.600
When I first started looking into this stuff, I was like, oh, Gabb, they're, like, redoing their architecture so that they can run on multi cloud

805
01:11:18.915 --> 01:11:24.614
kind of stuff. So if cloud providers censor them, they can still be up. But then, like, they're just

806
01:11:24.915 --> 01:11:30.570
relocating the locus of censorship in themselves. It's it's so dumb that no one has done this. I just can't even believe.

807
01:11:31.030 --> 01:11:32.809
I I can't believe it. It's

808
01:11:33.349 --> 01:11:33.849
yeah.

809
01:11:36.385 --> 01:11:38.885
So what's the what's the yeah. Go on. Mike.

810
01:11:40.224 --> 01:11:41.284
Mike? Nope.

811
01:11:42.465 --> 01:11:47.010
I'm just page topic Sorry. Already. Okay. Let's talk what do you wanna talk about?

812
01:11:48.030 --> 01:11:48.530
Wikifreeda

813
01:11:48.910 --> 01:11:50.210
is censored in my articles.

814
01:11:54.695 --> 01:11:55.835
Get a better protocol.

815
01:11:57.415 --> 01:12:02.075
I've created I've created 3 different key pairs, and I've copied

816
01:12:02.540 --> 01:12:09.600
some content from, like, a movies database and another movie database and created an articles automatically for each movie that exists.

817
01:12:10.060 --> 01:12:10.800
And, also,

818
01:12:11.545 --> 01:12:18.605
some other feedback about the names, name like, the history of names. Like, there's one article for each name, and it's published by this

819
01:12:19.060 --> 01:12:20.120
different key pair

820
01:12:20.500 --> 01:12:21.720
to my own relay

821
01:12:22.100 --> 01:12:23.640
that has all this crap.

822
01:12:24.420 --> 01:12:29.735
And I can't read anything of that in Wiki 3rd year, and I don't know how to fix it, how to properly

823
01:12:30.275 --> 01:12:31.255
select relays

824
01:12:31.955 --> 01:12:34.695
for that use case. It's not the outbox model.

825
01:12:35.410 --> 01:12:40.930
I don't know what it is. The humble protocol. Yeah. Yeah. The so on on the humble protocol, we have,

826
01:12:41.490 --> 01:12:42.690
HIP we have HIP,

827
01:12:43.810 --> 01:12:44.310
34

828
01:12:47.255 --> 01:12:47.655
That,

829
01:12:48.375 --> 01:12:49.175
did you put the,

830
01:12:49.655 --> 01:12:55.420
that new relay that you created on on one of the whatever relay kind we created for for Wiki?

831
01:12:55.720 --> 01:12:59.820
No. Forgot the name. I did not. What's the name? There you go.

832
01:13:00.200 --> 01:13:00.680
Well, but

833
01:13:02.655 --> 01:13:03.475
go to nostril.com

834
01:13:04.015 --> 01:13:05.235
and read how it works.

835
01:13:07.775 --> 01:13:11.889
No. But what's what's the flow? Like, someone wants to read about some movie,

836
01:13:13.469 --> 01:13:20.875
at the it's that Yes. So so movies published. So if I if I if I were to follow that those pub keys that you wrote from,

837
01:13:21.435 --> 01:13:26.095
or someone within your web of trust follows them, it will check for the relay

838
01:13:26.475 --> 01:13:29.295
list of Wikipedia, of Wikifredia entries,

839
01:13:29.755 --> 01:13:33.920
of Wiki entries, and it will connect to those. So it will do outbox,

840
01:13:34.460 --> 01:13:39.360
to to those really, so it will find them. But if it's just a random pop key in the middle of nowhere,

841
01:13:40.335 --> 01:13:54.250
and there is no way to get to that What's what do you mean by that? Web of trust. Do you have a degree in web of trust or a master's? You can configure it on the no. I a degree. No. There is a degree of the configuration of the web of trust, but,

842
01:13:55.210 --> 01:13:57.710
I got fired from synonym, so I don't know.

843
01:14:00.675 --> 01:14:04.775
So it is it's like, what what's the default? Like, 2 2 hots away?

844
01:14:05.395 --> 01:14:08.820
3. Okay. A friend of But if you go to settings, you can change it.

845
01:14:09.300 --> 01:14:09.800
Okay.

846
01:14:10.900 --> 01:14:13.480
By the way, in the in the live chat,

847
01:14:13.860 --> 01:14:18.679
this is why I love Nostril. Like, Kieran's, like, debugging his features in my live chat,

848
01:14:20.085 --> 01:14:20.585
Live.

849
01:14:22.245 --> 01:14:25.385
Post a clip says don't use a clip. Don't use clips.

850
01:14:26.565 --> 01:14:27.865
Big pink box.

851
01:14:30.810 --> 01:14:32.590
What What about the inbox model?

852
01:14:33.130 --> 01:14:38.195
What is the difference? So inbox is where I want to receive my notes. Is that the

853
01:14:38.574 --> 01:14:44.195
difference? Yeah. Yeah. You could say that, but we we are horrible at names. Like, in the current 65,

854
01:14:44.974 --> 01:14:48.580
there's a concept of inbox, which is where we want to receive

855
01:14:49.200 --> 01:14:50.980
reactions, replies, and

856
01:14:51.600 --> 01:14:53.220
mentions, stuff like that.

857
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:54.180
But

858
01:14:54.515 --> 01:14:57.574
Alex Glayson suggested some days ago, and

859
01:14:58.034 --> 01:15:03.415
I proposed the NIP for the inbox model. I don't know if it's a good idea, but I just wrote it. I hate it.

860
01:15:03.900 --> 01:15:04.560
I hate

861
01:15:05.580 --> 01:15:08.800
it. So you 2 are wrong, and I think my I think the

862
01:15:09.260 --> 01:15:19.985
the basic idea is interesting where you just, like, put something out there that's, like, I want this kind of stuff, and anyone who wants to give it to me can put it in my inbox. No. That's not that idea. That's that's yeah. That's much looser.

863
01:15:20.285 --> 01:15:22.945
Well, it's similar. I mean, it uses the uses an advertisement.

864
01:15:23.260 --> 01:15:26.240
Yours is way too way too strict, way too structured.

865
01:15:26.700 --> 01:15:31.360
My idea is, like, I wanna I wanna subscribe to I wanna follow Pablo, and Pablo

866
01:15:32.755 --> 01:15:34.375
signals that he implements this

867
01:15:34.835 --> 01:15:42.510
this model. And then I send a follow request or something like that to Pablo to Pablo's release release that Pablo advertised.

868
01:15:43.130 --> 01:15:43.630
And

869
01:15:44.490 --> 01:15:47.070
then the next time Pablo publishes any note,

870
01:15:47.610 --> 01:15:52.585
he will send like, in this in this follow request, I I include the relay.

871
01:15:53.045 --> 01:15:59.784
And then Pablo will sub submit his note directly to my relay that I note like, I that I wrote there.

872
01:16:00.440 --> 01:16:05.420
So so so, Matt, to to make to translate that to English, this has the feature.

873
01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:14.635
This has this this model that FireChef proposes has the feature where you can actually block people, like, for real. Like, they cannot see your posts.

874
01:16:14.960 --> 01:16:23.620
So But you you you you use this together with the Outbox model. You would still publish stuff to the relays that you advertise. So people can still follow you there.

875
01:16:24.485 --> 01:16:25.385
It's just a

876
01:16:25.885 --> 01:16:31.065
Mhmm. Instead of instead of you going and and getting Pablo's notes from his outbox,

877
01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:34.540
you tell Pablo to put his notes in your inbox.

878
01:16:35.320 --> 01:16:39.980
Right? So you kinda flip it around. But what you're basically you're taking the locus of control,

879
01:16:40.345 --> 01:16:47.085
and you're handing it to Pablo. And so then Pablo could say, I'm gonna cut you off. And then not send you the notes anymore.

880
01:16:47.620 --> 01:16:49.719
Yeah. But then the client, after

881
01:16:50.020 --> 01:16:56.965
realizing that for a week, Pablo hasn't posted anything, your client goes there and checks if Pablo is publishing through his outbox. And then you switch

882
01:16:57.505 --> 01:16:58.405
Pablo publishes.

883
01:16:58.864 --> 01:17:01.844
Well, I I mean, I think it's If it comes this potentially

884
01:17:02.864 --> 01:17:05.364
I think there's use cases for it, but

885
01:17:05.870 --> 01:17:08.370
I I I don't wanna use any of those use cases.

886
01:17:11.550 --> 01:17:14.450
Doesn't the doesn't the Outbox model just solve this?

887
01:17:14.985 --> 01:17:22.364
It does. Outbox model solves everything. But But I'm I'm I'm saying that there's a different there's a different way of doing the thing.

888
01:17:23.040 --> 01:17:25.300
Like, you you you don't have to equate.

889
01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:29.060
But you don't have to equate to us or with the other one.

890
01:17:29.825 --> 01:17:32.725
Yeah. You do things multiple ways. No? You don't?

891
01:17:33.905 --> 01:17:41.180
It's okay. Experimentation is good. Criteria for acceptance of NIPs, There should be no more than one way of doing the same thing.

892
01:17:46.715 --> 01:17:47.535
That's right.

893
01:17:48.315 --> 01:17:51.535
It's it's stuck, Matt, the the chat.

894
01:17:52.235 --> 01:17:56.970
I don't I don't think it's the same thing. So I I think it's Oh, Kieran Grove is there. If

895
01:17:57.910 --> 01:18:00.170
if someone finds a good use for it, I'm fine with it.

896
01:18:00.550 --> 01:18:09.115
It's so much more complicated. Yeah. I'm like I read it. I was like, okay. What's the goal of this? And he was, okay. I I don't see

897
01:18:09.495 --> 01:18:11.435
a point. It's really complicated.

898
01:18:13.095 --> 01:18:14.475
And, yeah, I don't know.

899
01:18:15.160 --> 01:18:17.160
So something that's similar that,

900
01:18:17.640 --> 01:18:19.980
that I was talking to Nanya Bidness about,

901
01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:21.239
he,

902
01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:28.065
he he proposed this idea, is to just put put something more generically out there. So rather than delivering it to a particular person's,

903
01:18:28.525 --> 01:18:34.440
inbox and saying, I want your stuff, you just put something out there and it's like, I want more information about

904
01:18:34.820 --> 01:18:57.630
Bitcoin or whatever. And then people can and the thing about that is it not only means that people would deliver stuff to your inbox about Bitcoin, but it would mean that people know that there's a market for that or like a, you know, market of attention. And so people might be incentivized to actually create more content. I think that's that's the best application of this sorta architecture that I can think of.

905
01:18:58.515 --> 01:19:05.815
That's a completely different idea and has nothing to do with what I said, but I think it's a good idea too. Although I like it. It doesn't work

906
01:19:06.180 --> 01:19:11.160
in the naive way you said, but I think it can't be can't be used can have uses.

907
01:19:12.660 --> 01:19:14.040
You're calling me naive.

908
01:19:16.594 --> 01:19:21.094
Well, if someone creates, like, a 1,000,000 puppies saying that they want more content about,

909
01:19:22.675 --> 01:19:30.010
I don't know, basketball. Are you going to start getting basketball content? Like, it's just just going to scan you of your time

910
01:19:30.550 --> 01:19:35.085
and and then of your bandwidth having to publish stuff to a relay that doesn't even exist,

911
01:19:36.344 --> 01:19:39.485
where supposedly someone is looking for basketball content.

912
01:19:40.264 --> 01:19:48.730
But Yeah. Yeah. I think it could could, like, could have its users, but then it would be, like, 10 years ago. In in 10 years, we can think about that.

913
01:19:49.085 --> 01:19:54.784
Yeah. I'm not gonna do it. Or you could just publish an event saying, oh, I would like to read more about

914
01:19:55.485 --> 01:20:02.840
spinners or flowers or whatever. Right? And it's it's just people can't fulfill that. Just go to Corigall. You'll know everything you need to do.

915
01:20:03.220 --> 01:20:04.760
All your spinners are fulfilled.

916
01:20:07.235 --> 01:20:08.375
Can we talk about proxies?

917
01:20:09.795 --> 01:20:12.775
Okay. By the way, MBK wants us to talk about OMIMO.

918
01:20:14.490 --> 01:20:15.390
Jesus Christ.

919
01:20:17.530 --> 01:20:19.870
I'm not smart enough. You'll have to do it for me.

920
01:20:22.145 --> 01:20:29.605
I think proxies are cool and, like, you know, they're like a a partial solution to a lot of these, optimization problems, from a client's perspective

921
01:20:30.030 --> 01:20:32.690
because they can implement the the outbox model.

922
01:20:33.150 --> 01:20:43.844
You know, if you have a proxy, you can just ask it like, give me stuff from these pub keys. And then it can go figure out where those pub keys are and keep an index of all that stuff internally. The and that makes clients a lot simpler potentially,

923
01:20:44.224 --> 01:20:47.520
so reduces the barrier to entry to to the outbox model.

924
01:20:48.860 --> 01:20:53.040
Some interesting things about proxies are you can't proxy auth right now. It's impossible.

925
01:20:54.395 --> 01:20:54.835
But,

926
01:20:55.275 --> 01:20:58.175
I love this idea that Pablo mentioned to me.

927
01:20:58.555 --> 01:21:06.480
No one has been talking about it, but I really want it to exist. I'll build it if I ever get around to it. But making NIP 46 signers that are also proxies.

928
01:21:07.020 --> 01:21:12.585
Right? Because you already trust the NIP 46 signer with your private key. And And it's a common do that

929
01:21:13.625 --> 01:21:14.844
yeah. Yeah. Well,

930
01:21:15.385 --> 01:21:20.450
all all this all Net 46 signers. Right? I mean, you gotta have the Yeah. No. I'm just I'm just giving reference to to Matt.

931
01:21:21.410 --> 01:21:22.470
Oh, okay. Yeah.

932
01:21:22.930 --> 01:21:34.175
So, so what you can do is you can reduce a lot of round trips with that signer by just sending an unsigned event to the signer and saying, publish this where it should go. Then you don't have to do relay selection for publishing either,

933
01:21:34.875 --> 01:21:39.375
and you, you reduce the number of network requests, the signer can double as a proxy.

934
01:21:40.070 --> 01:21:41.130
I think it's great,

935
01:21:41.510 --> 01:21:44.410
with the caveat that you have to put your private key somewhere. But,

936
01:21:45.030 --> 01:21:46.810
proxies would be easily self hostable.

937
01:21:47.205 --> 01:21:52.025
The database wouldn't, wouldn't grow any bigger than, any clients, database.

938
01:21:52.804 --> 01:21:54.265
So I think it's totally doable.

939
01:21:54.570 --> 01:21:59.070
And, someone should do it. Maybe I But you should should you do it, like, through the normal

940
01:21:59.690 --> 01:22:00.190
Nasr,

941
01:22:01.130 --> 01:22:01.630
transport?

942
01:22:02.305 --> 01:22:03.844
Like, you're you're going to subscribe

943
01:22:04.305 --> 01:22:16.380
with the rack thing to your own proxy, or should we have a different protocol there? Oh, yeah. I would open a direct WebSocket to the proxy. It doesn't need to go over DVMs because then you'd have to, like, you know, proxy. I'm not talking about DVMs.

944
01:22:16.775 --> 01:22:21.835
I'm not talking about DVMs. I'm I'm saying like Well, yeah. But, like, the NIP 46 is currently,

945
01:22:22.855 --> 01:22:25.675
works with the same architecture as DVMs because you publish,

946
01:22:26.390 --> 01:22:33.210
like, the transport is relays. So I would just assume intermediate relays and do a direct connection to the signer. Sorry, Pablo. But

947
01:22:33.865 --> 01:22:36.125
I I think you could go one step further.

948
01:22:36.745 --> 01:22:41.485
I think you could take your your proxy idea. Well, that's a that's also a a a bunker,

949
01:22:41.840 --> 01:22:44.739
and then actually combine it with the client into 1 big program?

950
01:22:46.400 --> 01:22:47.300
Yeah. You could.

951
01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:53.235
If you want a back end. A client should run back end. He's just going backwards to where he came from. But,

952
01:22:54.755 --> 01:22:58.535
I think it's a good architecture if you have a a a weak

953
01:22:59.969 --> 01:23:04.310
system, like a phone to run your main visual part of it on.

954
01:23:04.929 --> 01:23:07.429
But then you have to have some sort of trust relationship

955
01:23:08.525 --> 01:23:13.585
between that phone and that proxy, which is, I think, the biggest sticking point in most situations

956
01:23:13.965 --> 01:23:18.140
unless you're self hosting. Yeah. But most people are not gonna be self hosting a proxy.

957
01:23:20.199 --> 01:23:38.929
Yeah. And you can partially solve that by paying for the proxy because that aligns interest. But, yeah, your your password is still stored on a server. So if you don't want that, then run a desktop client or a console. Trying to say is that you shouldn't treat the proxy as a relay. Like, if if the proxy is just an agent, like, it's it's just a a back end to your to

958
01:23:39.230 --> 01:23:40.369
your thing client,

959
01:23:41.205 --> 01:23:43.945
and it's doing all the work on behalf of your client.

960
01:23:44.325 --> 01:23:47.225
It's not it's not acting as a relay for your

961
01:23:47.605 --> 01:23:53.550
client. Your price is just a front end, and this product is just a back end. Isn't this basically what Prime is doing?

962
01:23:54.010 --> 01:23:57.310
Yeah. It's basically what Prime is doing. It's also what CBD Social does.

963
01:23:57.865 --> 01:24:02.445
Wait. Does ZBD Social still exist? I haven't seen any of their notes. Are they getting censored?

964
01:24:05.120 --> 01:24:09.700
Well, we don't follow anyone from that, I think. I feel like they've all been they've all disappeared.

965
01:24:10.400 --> 01:24:15.375
There's a bunch of people there. They're posting bunch of really hot chicks. That they they want. Too much.

966
01:24:16.315 --> 01:24:20.175
I don't know. I use Monster every day, and I I feel like I they've disappeared.

967
01:24:20.875 --> 01:24:21.695
Time zones.

968
01:24:22.620 --> 01:24:25.199
Probably not, though. It's probably not time zones.

969
01:24:26.140 --> 01:24:28.239
Maybe they're Oh, they're using the outbox model.

970
01:24:28.940 --> 01:24:39.585
They are using the outbox model. It's a custodial outbox model like what Autobot is is proposing. Like, you have a trusted server that does the outbox model for you and just served you

971
01:24:40.050 --> 01:24:44.630
the content already stripped of anything, like, just gives you

972
01:24:45.490 --> 01:24:46.310
the the

973
01:24:47.170 --> 01:24:53.325
the thing meshed. I don't know. It sounds like it's a If there is any hate speech, you can take it out. I like it.

974
01:24:55.520 --> 01:25:00.020
What I'm talking about is personal web nodes that actually work. We need more hate speech on Aster.

975
01:25:01.119 --> 01:25:02.340
Agreed. Spicy.

976
01:25:03.085 --> 01:25:10.350
This is going to system. This is a we need to get this over here. Calvin Air go with get Calvin Air to come to Noster and publish some of

977
01:25:11.150 --> 01:25:13.970
his. That's what we need to be cash. We need the the

978
01:25:14.350 --> 01:25:16.050
Satoshi's visionaries to

979
01:25:17.470 --> 01:25:18.685
Yeah. There you go.

980
01:25:21.485 --> 01:25:25.665
ZBB has the hottest girls. Do you read in this chat? Fucking crazy.

981
01:25:26.365 --> 01:25:27.345
I haven't noticed.

982
01:25:29.100 --> 01:25:30.640
If you can open the

983
01:25:31.260 --> 01:25:35.280
the pure zbd feed, if you go on coreco and type,

984
01:25:35.715 --> 01:25:36.975
I think it's coreco.social/relay/

985
01:25:38.475 --> 01:25:42.095
Are they all just posting to the zbd relay only? G g.

986
01:25:43.850 --> 01:25:45.230
Is that what's going on?

987
01:25:46.330 --> 01:25:50.830
The ZBD users know they they post, like, the the the stuff is blasted

988
01:25:51.344 --> 01:25:53.284
to a bunch of relays. Yeah.

989
01:25:54.545 --> 01:25:57.525
But they all on the z b like, the the z b d relay,

990
01:25:57.905 --> 01:26:02.410
they only had only has the the post from ZBD users. So, Jeff a bunch

991
01:26:02.790 --> 01:26:05.610
of women. Yeah. Jeff, we have you on the pod.

992
01:26:06.070 --> 01:26:08.570
We have you on dispatch. It's a live show unedited.

993
01:26:10.755 --> 01:26:11.815
ZBD pays your rent.

994
01:26:12.594 --> 01:26:16.375
Andre literally comes into your house and pays your rent every every month.

995
01:26:17.235 --> 01:26:18.775
How do you feel about custodial

996
01:26:19.600 --> 01:26:24.580
clients? Like like, where the user can't even pull their NSAC out. How how does that make you feel?

997
01:26:26.320 --> 01:26:26.980
I think

998
01:26:27.360 --> 01:26:29.380
that was always my position. I think it's

999
01:26:29.745 --> 01:26:32.625
I think it's okay for most people, but I wouldn't like it.

1000
01:26:33.264 --> 01:26:39.730
Everyone's No. You should you should ask you should ask you should ask Pablo because he's the biggest proponent of custodial,

1001
01:26:40.670 --> 01:26:42.770
NOSFET clients NOSFET teams.

1002
01:26:43.310 --> 01:26:46.690
And I think with the with the key migration thing,

1003
01:26:48.145 --> 01:26:49.445
that that probably gets

1004
01:26:50.065 --> 01:26:53.045
very much do you mean, like, it's it's much smaller?

1005
01:26:53.505 --> 01:26:55.560
What do you mean the key migration to the

1006
01:26:56.520 --> 01:26:58.440
the the the thing that we discussed about,

1007
01:26:59.080 --> 01:27:03.740
migrating the identity where you can rotate your end second to your end pub into a new end pub.

1008
01:27:04.455 --> 01:27:19.310
And there are signaling, and there's all kinds of shit to to You're basically just, like, signing a note that says, like, I'm gonna rotate to these and put some pictures to that with some Basically, yeah, with with certain guarantees that Yeah. But it's a hack. Different ways.

1009
01:27:19.735 --> 01:27:23.835
Yeah. It is a hack because you cannot change math. Right? So it is what it is.

1010
01:27:24.615 --> 01:27:27.595
But the the cool thing is that we could go into

1011
01:27:28.055 --> 01:27:31.159
something that PHF loves, which is have some kind of,

1012
01:27:32.199 --> 01:27:34.300
master public key so you can derive,

1013
01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:36.060
you can derive children,

1014
01:27:36.679 --> 01:27:37.420
child keys,

1015
01:27:38.065 --> 01:27:38.565
and,

1016
01:27:39.264 --> 01:27:40.965
basically, like, having, like, an expat.

1017
01:27:42.225 --> 01:27:57.415
But, of course, we can't with the current keys, So we need a scheme. We could have a scheme that migrates from the current scheme to, to a new scheme where we have these these x pups, and we can do rotation without this kinda I like to hack. The hack works.

1018
01:27:57.875 --> 01:28:00.295
The the the hack is required, basically.

1019
01:28:00.740 --> 01:28:09.720
We can take it further or not? You just post a note that you're like, I'm gonna rotate to this if I get hacked. And then if you see a note that says I got hacked, then you rotate.

1020
01:28:10.785 --> 01:28:15.365
Yeah. But you have a whole kind of problem with, you know, saying But it's basically that.

1021
01:28:15.825 --> 01:28:22.520
It it is it is basically that. You're just anchoring to to to the Bitcoin blockchain to so that if someone has your key,

1022
01:28:23.060 --> 01:28:39.400
they cannot publish, an event that is older than you're saying, oh, I'm rotating to this new key, and they rotate to a to a key that they control, but you don't. So it it's basically that, but with open time stamps. Yeah. What if Peter Todd senses you from his open timestamps server?

1023
01:28:40.580 --> 01:28:44.360
Well, then we're fucked. What what is she doing with Peter? Tell us to do this.

1024
01:28:45.380 --> 01:28:46.440
Put it on Ethereum.

1025
01:28:50.245 --> 01:28:51.945
Is it Nostr or Nostr?

1026
01:28:52.645 --> 01:28:54.425
Jesus Christ. Again, this question.

1027
01:28:55.560 --> 01:29:01.260
Someone asked it in the chat. It wasn't my question. In Brazil in Brazilian people, they're talking about they they say no STR

1028
01:29:02.120 --> 01:29:04.620
in Portuguese. No STR? No STR.

1029
01:29:05.045 --> 01:29:06.185
Like the It's both.

1030
01:29:06.645 --> 01:29:07.945
That's what I think. Wars.

1031
01:29:08.645 --> 01:29:09.625
I like Nostr.

1032
01:29:10.085 --> 01:29:18.350
The protocol the protocol can, can handle partitioning and so should the pronunciation of the name. Fair enough. It's Nostril. You mean the Humble protocol?

1033
01:29:19.370 --> 01:29:19.870
Yeah.

1034
01:29:20.409 --> 01:29:21.949
I pronounce Nostril humble.

1035
01:29:24.355 --> 01:29:25.255
All caps.

1036
01:29:27.235 --> 01:29:28.855
You couldn't tell from the pronunciation.

1037
01:29:30.275 --> 01:29:34.390
Can we talk about Omnimo now? Or Yeah. You wanna talk about it?

1038
01:29:35.410 --> 01:29:38.390
Omnimo is like a protocol for encrypting

1039
01:29:39.325 --> 01:29:39.825
chat

1040
01:29:40.445 --> 01:29:41.745
that has been abandoned,

1041
01:29:42.364 --> 01:29:42.864
like,

1042
01:29:43.165 --> 01:29:47.665
7 years ago, I think. But NDK wants us to implement this.

1043
01:29:48.369 --> 01:29:50.070
I mean, he's just trolling. Right?

1044
01:29:51.889 --> 01:29:55.429
Not when Matrix uses? Somehow. I think that's my that's my understanding.

1045
01:29:57.005 --> 01:29:58.705
How is this relevant at all?

1046
01:30:01.485 --> 01:30:09.270
It was just what NVK was was talking about. Just ignore him. I'm not gonna ban him from the live chat, but just ignore his his his notes. Okay.

1047
01:30:10.210 --> 01:30:13.190
I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction of of getting banned.

1048
01:30:16.765 --> 01:30:20.305
Is there anything of relevance you guys wanna discuss while I have you?

1049
01:30:21.005 --> 01:30:22.145
While we have you?

1050
01:30:23.790 --> 01:30:24.770
Pub key hints.

1051
01:30:25.310 --> 01:30:27.250
That's another wrinkle of this whole thing.

1052
01:30:27.790 --> 01:30:31.195
Oh, lord. You're you're gonna you're gonna make this even more niche.

1053
01:30:32.155 --> 01:30:34.094
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's go.

1054
01:30:34.395 --> 01:30:36.494
This is definitely what works all about.

1055
01:30:37.034 --> 01:30:38.895
What is what is pub key hints?

1056
01:30:39.350 --> 01:30:46.070
So right now we have Relay Hints. Right? If you e tag or a tag something, you have a Relay Hints so you know how to find it. But that is,

1057
01:30:46.665 --> 01:30:47.805
I don't know. There's probably

1058
01:30:48.185 --> 01:31:05.465
some use cases for it, but I can't think of any because the Relay is like, it's high time preference again. Like, it's all stuff in the short term, but only as long as those relays exist and actually have the data and clients are choosing good relay hints. And most clients don't even have relay hints. They just put an empty string there. It's totally pointless.

1059
01:31:06.425 --> 01:31:09.165
And the the big thing is that relays are gonna go offline,

1060
01:31:10.025 --> 01:31:19.950
and also DNS is in the mix. So they're just extremely fragile. There's all kinds of ways that these can fail. But the thing that is They they can even be wrong in the first place.

1061
01:31:20.395 --> 01:31:31.690
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There's, like That's not a signed piece of data. I mean, I mean, it's signed by the person to put the hint there, but the fact that the that the event is actually on that relay, who the hell knows? It might have been a lie.

1062
01:31:32.150 --> 01:31:52.985
Yeah. Relays it's it's the whole, like, state versus values thing. State is named values. So relay is a name for a bunch of values, but you don't it doesn't have it's not a hash. It doesn't have anything to do with the values that it's actually holding. So because of link rot, we need better hints, and a perfect hint is a pub key. So and there's, like, there's a proposal to add add this, but,

1063
01:31:53.545 --> 01:32:00.685
you know, a tags already have pub keys, pub key tags already have pub keys, obviously. Etags don't have pub keys, but if we can add a pub key to etags,

1064
01:32:01.170 --> 01:32:08.185
then all you need to know is the 10,002 for that pub key, and then you can find stuff. So I think it's a great idea, and we should do it.

1065
01:32:08.745 --> 01:32:12.285
Yep. I support it. I've I've already started working on the code.

1066
01:32:12.825 --> 01:32:18.300
Woo hoo. Ship it. Done. Oh, that was easy. Alright. I thought VHF was gonna argue with me, but

1067
01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:22.140
I like the relay hints. Don't don't remove the relay hints.

1068
01:32:23.635 --> 01:32:45.275
What do they do? What do they do? The thing the thing that's that's not the greatest is that if you're using that same slot that's been used for URLs and now you're gonna put pub queues in there, Then your code has to sort of older code is gonna, you know, choke on that. Hopefully, it just Yeah. But they have to handle it. Ignores ignores the error. Right? Because yeah. You have to be, you know, hardened.

1069
01:32:47.815 --> 01:32:54.530
And the newer code is gonna say, well, if it wasn't a URL or maybe it checks public key first, then then check it the other way.

1070
01:32:56.270 --> 01:33:02.210
Kieran is asking on the on the chat, how do you get your the 2,002 if you're in an obscure relay?

1071
01:33:02.755 --> 01:33:07.975
That's all the way. No. No. Not really. Like, you can ask basically any relay.

1072
01:33:09.395 --> 01:33:16.270
That's I I think Bitcoin, like, Bitcoin when you when you run Bitcoin d, it uses DNS to put strap to find the peers.

1073
01:33:16.810 --> 01:33:28.179
And I think that's that that's the idea that I had when I when I started working on the Peruvial Phases Relay is a Bootstrap really doesn't have any data other than this. It's easy to run. Now we have,

1074
01:33:28.659 --> 01:33:39.135
no social also runs a a relay like this one, and it's just having a few of these relays to start finding the rest the network. You have you need to have some kind of, bootstrapping process.

1075
01:33:39.515 --> 01:33:42.255
This is one of them. It doesn't need to be the only one, but that's

1076
01:33:43.080 --> 01:33:45.980
that's the way. Yeah. But the 10,002 should totally be blasted.

1077
01:33:46.600 --> 01:33:47.720
You can also check,

1078
01:33:48.120 --> 01:33:51.820
nibbo fives. You can check like, you could nibbo 5 stop.

1079
01:33:52.965 --> 01:33:56.025
Yeah. They do. But, but it is another way to find the relays.

1080
01:33:56.405 --> 01:33:58.905
I I still have BRB on my NEBO 5,

1081
01:34:00.324 --> 01:34:01.065
and vacation.

1082
01:34:01.770 --> 01:34:04.270
You can also build What a waste of time that was.

1083
01:34:04.810 --> 01:34:05.310
BRB.

1084
01:34:08.735 --> 01:34:12.914
Sorry. Continue. How about Oh, yeah. My my nip o 5 keeps getting out of date

1085
01:34:13.295 --> 01:34:25.940
because I keep forgetting to update it. I update my my my 10,002 in my client, and then I'm like, oh, shit. I've also got this other file. I have to go update it. And then I leave a fucking trailing comma in there, and it doesn't work for a month.

1086
01:34:26.345 --> 01:34:36.500
Yeah. That's the worst part. Like, I haven't been I haven't been pretty good about that, but, you know, it it'd be better if it was somehow automated that the client could automatically keep the NIP 0 5 in sync.

1087
01:34:37.120 --> 01:34:49.875
It's totally possible, but every NIP 0 5 provider would have to implement that or or use the software. It's not that hard a problem, just no one is bothered really with it. But all all this stuff is DNS. Wait. What does this mean for someone who self hosted NIPO5?

1088
01:34:51.330 --> 01:35:06.225
You'll just have to run your own domain, run the right software, or update it yourself. No. Forget about that. Just add it manually. Just a file. You you already have a website with a domain name that is just you, and so you you have to update your Nipple 5 manually. I think that Nipple 5 thing was

1089
01:35:07.540 --> 01:35:09.800
I I don't know. I I never liked these

1090
01:35:10.260 --> 01:35:13.159
providers that showed up, like, a bunch of

1091
01:35:13.699 --> 01:35:20.345
and NOSR whatever and my NIPL five. I don't I don't think those serve any purpose. Like, Nipple 5 should be for

1092
01:35:20.965 --> 01:35:22.585
platforms that have already

1093
01:35:22.885 --> 01:35:26.485
names, like users register their names and

1094
01:35:27.060 --> 01:35:31.320
or people that self host their domain. I don't think these products these providers

1095
01:35:31.940 --> 01:35:32.840
have any point.

1096
01:35:33.699 --> 01:35:35.639
I don't know. I think it works fine as an address,

1097
01:35:36.925 --> 01:35:38.065
but that's all it is.

1098
01:35:39.645 --> 01:35:41.185
The relay stuff's not bad.

1099
01:35:43.940 --> 01:35:46.600
I was playing with this, you know, disintermediating

1100
01:35:47.380 --> 01:35:48.840
DNS for bootstrapping,

1101
01:35:50.265 --> 01:35:57.165
you know, pub key relay selections. Obviously, that doesn't completely take DNS out of the picture because WebSockets rely on DNS. But,

1102
01:35:57.705 --> 01:35:59.325
I I played around with GunDB

1103
01:36:00.000 --> 01:36:00.880
and, putting,

1104
01:36:02.160 --> 01:36:04.740
putting these puggy putting Kine 10,002,

1105
01:36:05.760 --> 01:36:07.060
events on GunDB.

1106
01:36:07.495 --> 01:36:10.715
So you could just open up gun and grab a key.

1107
01:36:11.335 --> 01:36:15.335
Obviously, it's a DHT, so, you know, Pablo and Fiat Jack are laughing at me. But,

1108
01:36:16.190 --> 01:36:20.210
you know, it it proves in theory that you can use different indexes

1109
01:36:20.670 --> 01:36:24.445
to, to bootstrap your connections. So there's that.

1110
01:36:28.445 --> 01:36:30.945
Yeah. I think the right approach is just using ordinals.

1111
01:36:35.800 --> 01:36:39.980
We'll we'll all make more money. Let's just do that. Yeah. This is really devolved.

1112
01:36:45.175 --> 01:36:48.875
I mean, I I think Nastr is good. Do you guys think Nastr is good?

1113
01:36:49.930 --> 01:36:54.030
Nastr is good enough for casting. Small. I'm warming up too. It's too small.

1114
01:36:55.690 --> 01:36:58.510
You're warming up too, Mike? Is that what you said? Yeah.

1115
01:36:59.625 --> 01:37:04.365
I mean, it works. Like, it works. Like, you got I like, I appreciate you guys going deep and,

1116
01:37:06.570 --> 01:37:10.190
you know, trying to make it as robust as possible, but the fucking thing works.

1117
01:37:11.210 --> 01:37:12.350
Yeah. That's true.

1118
01:37:14.095 --> 01:37:16.595
That's amazing. It it works under these conditions.

1119
01:37:17.295 --> 01:37:24.500
There's, like, 10 people that have made it an hour and 40 minutes into the show that literally just wake up in the morning, go on to Nasr,

1120
01:37:25.200 --> 01:37:32.675
use whatever app they want to, they say good morning to me, and then they just receive Bitcoin, and, like, that's Nasr to them. And they're here. This works.

1121
01:37:33.454 --> 01:37:33.954
Yeah.

1122
01:37:34.655 --> 01:37:35.954
At this scale, it works.

1123
01:37:36.895 --> 01:37:39.760
At this scale? At a 1000000000 people, it's gonna break.

1124
01:37:40.159 --> 01:37:41.619
How do we get more users?

1125
01:37:42.320 --> 01:37:43.460
Spicier shit.

1126
01:37:44.800 --> 01:37:45.300
Communities.

1127
01:37:46.000 --> 01:37:47.619
We need the spicy shit. Communities.

1128
01:37:49.034 --> 01:37:49.775
Not communities.

1129
01:37:50.474 --> 01:37:55.614
I mean, how about I like I I want your church group to move off of Facebook a 100%.

1130
01:37:56.270 --> 01:37:59.170
I just did like, that's not how we get a 1000000000 users. Maybe.

1131
01:38:00.510 --> 01:38:02.050
Communities have network effect.

1132
01:38:02.350 --> 01:38:04.290
You because your network is smaller,

1133
01:38:05.195 --> 01:38:13.455
you you can get people into a protocol that doesn't have everyone they wanna talk to because they have a subset of the people they really wanna talk to on it.

1134
01:38:16.460 --> 01:38:17.920
People go through hoops

1135
01:38:18.300 --> 01:38:20.320
to get to the people that they so

1136
01:38:20.699 --> 01:38:22.960
the two moments where we had the most

1137
01:38:24.045 --> 01:38:29.005
user base increase was when Jack joined and when Snowden joined. And when I dealt with

1138
01:38:29.805 --> 01:38:32.260
And well, okay. I mean, that that's a given.

1139
01:38:34.659 --> 01:38:35.159
But

1140
01:38:35.940 --> 01:38:36.260
but,

1141
01:38:37.619 --> 01:38:38.119
when

1142
01:38:38.739 --> 01:38:40.199
when people that,

1143
01:38:40.505 --> 01:38:52.810
like, the all those people figure out the keys, they figure out all the relays, all the hard stuff because they wanted to see what Jack was up to. They wanted to see what's what's Odell was up to, and they want to see what snow Snowdon was up to.

1144
01:38:53.829 --> 01:39:02.864
So in those sense, those are communities. It's social capital, basically. And when I say community, I don't know how about when I say communities, that's what I have in mind.

1145
01:39:03.645 --> 01:39:06.465
Yeah. I agree with that. Things that exist outside of Nostriland.

1146
01:39:10.500 --> 01:39:16.360
Yeah. But if we had some really spicy content that was censored everywhere else, the only place to get it would be Nostril.

1147
01:39:16.835 --> 01:39:26.840
And, yeah, that's the same. People whole bunch of people will show up. I mean What is that? I don't know. But are you gonna tell Alex Jones to use small relays only, or does he use blaster?

1148
01:39:27.780 --> 01:39:34.015
No. No. No. No. No. That's the whole point. Alex Jones can if with outbox, Alex Jones can run the relay.alexjones.com.

1149
01:39:35.114 --> 01:39:38.574
He knows he's not going to be censored because he runs it,

1150
01:39:38.955 --> 01:39:45.400
and people can find it without having to do anything at all. He cannot be shadow banned. At with the current model, he can.

1151
01:39:45.940 --> 01:39:52.285
Without box, he can't. That's that's the whole thing. Okay. And Prime was Prime was gonna implement this. Right?

1152
01:39:52.665 --> 01:39:59.100
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're good. E even people that don't We we don't always moving in the right direction. 100%.

1153
01:39:59.560 --> 01:40:06.015
You know, I could be in a conversation and and on some thread, and then Alex Jones could reply to me like it's gonna happen. But,

1154
01:40:06.735 --> 01:40:21.940
and then I could go, oh, Alex Jones. Monday, Mike. Monday. Click the follow button, and I have no idea that he's on his own small relay. I just now I'm starting to follow Alex Jones. But it never happened that way. We go the other way. I don't know. No. Let's be honest. Alex Jones is gonna download Domus.

1155
01:40:22.560 --> 01:40:30.965
He's gonna post directly to the Domus relay, and then there's gonna be, like, 3 weeks where he tries to figure out his lightning address and then set up his lightning address.

1156
01:40:31.665 --> 01:40:34.670
He's never gonna run his own relay, and it's gonna be

1157
01:40:35.210 --> 01:40:35.710
great.

1158
01:40:36.250 --> 01:40:39.870
Everything will work out. And then jb 55 will deplatform

1159
01:40:40.250 --> 01:40:43.550
Alex Jones. And then we'll finally get some robust

1160
01:40:43.875 --> 01:40:44.935
substantive changes,

1161
01:40:45.315 --> 01:40:47.815
and we can have a follow-up conversation at that point.

1162
01:40:48.275 --> 01:40:52.375
There we go. I look forward to it. See, I think we solved it. I think we got some homework.

1163
01:40:55.600 --> 01:41:00.179
Weird. I think I think the we we moved the the overturn. Like, we we've

1164
01:41:00.595 --> 01:41:03.255
started talking about this a little bit, like, a a lot,

1165
01:41:03.715 --> 01:41:06.935
and at least people are aware that this is a thing.

1166
01:41:08.580 --> 01:41:12.440
And Primal, to to me, the most important part is that Primal is going to start

1167
01:41:12.740 --> 01:41:13.240
doing,

1168
01:41:13.780 --> 01:41:18.865
is one of the biggest clients and is gonna start doing outbox, which I think is fantastic.

1169
01:41:19.405 --> 01:41:28.970
They are going to start leaving relay hints, which I think is fantastic. Random relays for new users instead of the same relay list. Yeah. Yeah. I

1170
01:41:29.430 --> 01:41:33.595
yeah. Yeah. So the idea is to use NIP 66, so nostril dot watch,

1171
01:41:34.395 --> 01:41:39.135
to get relays that are fast, publicly accessible, and fast and reliable

1172
01:41:39.515 --> 01:41:43.215
close to the person where the person that is is using Primal is.

1173
01:41:43.710 --> 01:41:45.650
And they write to write relay primal.net

1174
01:41:46.430 --> 01:41:49.650
and also to these, whatever, 5, 4, 6 different relays.

1175
01:41:50.430 --> 01:41:55.045
I think it's fantastic. I I think that's gonna be a big, big, big step.

1176
01:41:55.905 --> 01:41:57.525
Well, Demos has already

1177
01:41:57.825 --> 01:41:59.445
said they will implement it,

1178
01:42:00.225 --> 01:42:05.680
many times, although I don't know what exactly would be the would the implementation look like.

1179
01:42:06.620 --> 01:42:07.120
So

1180
01:42:07.580 --> 01:42:10.560
maybe this discussion was for nothing. Everybody's already agreeing.

1181
01:42:12.745 --> 01:42:19.885
And no one understood any Everybody here already kind of agreed, so we didn't we didn't get any we didn't bring in Tony or

1182
01:42:20.469 --> 01:42:27.929
or Well, I mean, to be clear to be clear, my relay list is Not that they disagreed, but My my relay list is only one small relay. It's relay.bitcoinpark.com.

1183
01:42:29.205 --> 01:42:36.985
Then I have big relays. I have relay dot pyramid fiatjaf or whatever that relay is. I have Nostra Band. I have Primal.

1184
01:42:37.430 --> 01:42:41.370
I have Snort Social, and then I have blaster, and I just blast everything.

1185
01:42:41.670 --> 01:42:43.290
So I'm the disagreeing one.

1186
01:42:46.355 --> 01:42:53.094
You're here to learn from the I know. I just want I I want my notes to be everywhere. Anywhere that'll accept my notes can have my notes.

1187
01:42:54.060 --> 01:42:59.360
What did Jack say? Jack said I don't wanna be a part of a relay that'll have me. I wanna be a part of every relay that'll have me.

1188
01:43:02.845 --> 01:43:08.945
Except for the blue check ones. No blue checks. I will not broadcast to x.com. I haven't since August.

1189
01:43:09.725 --> 01:43:11.345
There you go. The biggest relay.

1190
01:43:13.010 --> 01:43:16.310
I got nothing else to talk about. Dave, did you guys have any final thoughts?

1191
01:43:17.490 --> 01:43:23.415
I I have one that I think the conversation around this has been very centric around

1192
01:43:23.955 --> 01:43:25.975
these, like, outbox against cluster.

1193
01:43:26.810 --> 01:43:27.550
It's 100%

1194
01:43:28.329 --> 01:43:29.949
not against blaster,

1195
01:43:30.409 --> 01:43:50.800
and I think there is a I was running blaster until last week. Like, I had my own blaster instance. It was doing more numbers than what I see totally posted. I would it was doing, like, a half self hosted your own blaster instance? You can't self host because it runs on Cloudflare. So all blaster runs on Cloudflare. But I was running a a blaster on blaster dot, f 7 zed.xyzed.

1196
01:43:53.725 --> 01:43:56.225
So it it's very very much not,

1197
01:43:57.485 --> 01:43:58.465
Outbox versus

1198
01:43:58.845 --> 01:44:01.670
versus, blaster. I think part of the misunderstanding

1199
01:44:02.449 --> 01:44:04.710
is that there is this tension between the 2,

1200
01:44:06.370 --> 01:44:10.575
but there there isn't. It it doesn't matter if you're using plaster.

1201
01:44:11.035 --> 01:44:12.095
Things are still,

1202
01:44:12.875 --> 01:44:18.230
broken in some way because plaster is doing the right part, but not the rip part. Right? So, for example,

1203
01:44:18.690 --> 01:44:26.070
if Jack now is using these, 4 small relays Pablo, it's not your relay is not a small relay, but continue.

1204
01:44:26.435 --> 01:44:31.095
My relay is small, man. It's running on a Celeron. It's running on a Celeron computer

1205
01:44:31.955 --> 01:44:33.095
along with my fulcrum.

1206
01:44:33.450 --> 01:44:40.190
So Continue. I interrupted you. It's a very small relay. I will publish a picture later. You'll see how small it is. Oh my god.

1207
01:44:40.864 --> 01:44:41.744
Of the relay. She's

1208
01:44:44.065 --> 01:44:44.565
the,

1209
01:44:45.664 --> 01:44:46.164
the,

1210
01:44:47.824 --> 01:44:48.724
the the the,

1211
01:44:49.344 --> 01:44:52.230
the thing is people can can blast

1212
01:44:52.610 --> 01:45:02.635
Jack notes from this so someone can go in. They can read the notes from Jack, from these 4 small relays, and publish them via blaster, and they will end up in

1213
01:45:03.175 --> 01:45:05.675
300 different relays, and that's fine.

1214
01:45:06.590 --> 01:45:10.370
If Jack is using a a client that is not using Outbox,

1215
01:45:10.830 --> 01:45:12.130
he will not see responses

1216
01:45:13.310 --> 01:45:17.475
unless people send them to these very small relays, which could change,

1217
01:45:18.575 --> 01:45:23.075
they he will not see responses. So this is where, like, it's it's not

1218
01:45:23.570 --> 01:45:30.790
an an or it's not there is no tension. We need outbox regardless of blaster, and I think there is a case for blaster.

1219
01:45:31.885 --> 01:45:32.705
Yeah. I support the outbox

1220
01:45:33.165 --> 01:45:38.625
model. I I think I just got that. I didn't realize that you you blasted the 300 relays.

1221
01:45:38.930 --> 01:45:41.990
On one of those relays, somebody replies onto that relay,

1222
01:45:42.450 --> 01:45:46.390
and that's not something your clients ever pulling from, so it never sees a reply.

1223
01:45:46.895 --> 01:45:56.034
Yeah. Exactly. On on demos, it looks I see, I'm not even familiar with the landscape and what it looks like outside of the outbox model because I've been using outbox model from day 1.

1224
01:45:56.510 --> 01:45:58.769
No. I'm But, yeah, that's that's not good.

1225
01:45:59.869 --> 01:46:00.769
That's not good.

1226
01:46:01.230 --> 01:46:11.955
Yeah. I do think blaster has its use cases. Like, if if it limited itself to 10,000 twos, I'd be just so happy. That would be great. I mean Do the change you wanna see in the world. You can do that.

1227
01:46:13.110 --> 01:46:18.809
I'm not gonna run any relays. No public relays for me. Okay. Well, I mean, it's a public blast. It's Cloudflare is running it.

1228
01:46:19.670 --> 01:46:20.809
Yeah. Forget Cloudflare.

1229
01:46:23.005 --> 01:46:26.225
I like to do the things the hard way. I'm kinda curious. Like, so

1230
01:46:28.125 --> 01:46:33.290
I got pretty excited when I saw a Fiat Jeff's note. Right? And I was like, we need to run a dispatch.

1231
01:46:33.750 --> 01:46:36.570
I like, I think this is, like, actually just a noncontroversial

1232
01:46:37.030 --> 01:46:45.105
thing among most Nas like, either Nas users don't give a shit or they support the outbox model. Like, I feel like it's what that's what Mike said. Right? Like, I think,

1233
01:46:46.205 --> 01:46:47.825
this seems very noncontroversial.

1234
01:46:49.740 --> 01:46:58.160
But I think Will says he's gonna implement it. Tony's not against the idea. He just that's just this what this it's it's a fake

1235
01:46:58.465 --> 01:47:02.565
it's a fake debate. It's not there's no real debate here. There's no debate.

1236
01:47:03.185 --> 01:47:04.725
Noster's lot of confusion.

1237
01:47:05.185 --> 01:47:05.685
But

1238
01:47:06.469 --> 01:47:07.530
there will be

1239
01:47:08.230 --> 01:47:16.085
there's gonna be wars in the future. Right? Like, people were we're gonna start disagreeing. Like, we're gonna get to a 100000 users, a 1000000 users, a 1000000000 users,

1240
01:47:16.785 --> 01:47:22.885
you know, a 100 clients, like, different developers around the world. Like, there's gonna be a bifurcation. Like, there will be

1241
01:47:23.380 --> 01:47:26.200
there will be NASDAQ protocol wars. Will there not?

1242
01:47:27.620 --> 01:47:31.640
Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's, like, that's the real threat is

1243
01:47:32.155 --> 01:47:37.054
some big company with that's well funded coming in and taking over the protocol. I think when that happens,

1244
01:47:37.514 --> 01:47:46.060
we'll probably just wanna say, okay. We're done advancing the protocol. It is what it is. No one can add anything. Oh, you wanna you're for Nostril protocol ossification.

1245
01:47:46.840 --> 01:47:47.800
Not yet. But,

1246
01:47:48.495 --> 01:47:50.595
but when, when threads is done murdering,

1247
01:47:51.215 --> 01:47:52.195
Activity Pub,

1248
01:47:53.375 --> 01:47:54.995
then I will be for ossification.

1249
01:47:57.140 --> 01:48:00.280
I think it's kinda beautiful that it does it's like there's no consensus

1250
01:48:01.060 --> 01:48:03.880
there's no global consensus with Nastr. Like, I think,

1251
01:48:04.265 --> 01:48:14.350
like, if if a client falls out of sync with the global network, like, whatever happened to ZBD's client for, like, 6 months, who fuck gives a shit? Like, it'll it can eventually come back

1252
01:48:14.810 --> 01:48:18.190
or not or or different clients can evolve. Like,

1253
01:48:18.570 --> 01:48:25.245
I think kind of the beauty of Noster is the chaos element, which isn't it doesn't exist in Bitcoin because you have to have this global consensus.

1254
01:48:26.105 --> 01:48:27.965
Mhmm. Yeah. Pablo, say the thing.

1255
01:48:29.080 --> 01:48:34.140
Which one? There are many things. Embrace the chaos. Embrace the chaos. Yeah. Embrace all caps.

1256
01:48:35.480 --> 01:48:36.460
Always. Always.

1257
01:48:37.145 --> 01:48:47.940
I appreciate it. My, Nystratia keynote with that. I'm pretty excited for the Nostra Protocol Wars. Like, I would agree with Mike that this was a little bit of disappointing conversation because it's just there wasn't enough debate,

1258
01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:53.300
not enough on the line. No one's getting censored. Has anyone gotten censored yet, Anastar?

1259
01:48:54.765 --> 01:48:56.225
I don't know if we can tell.

1260
01:48:56.845 --> 01:49:01.025
Only accidental is getting censored. It's it's hard to notice the dog not barking.

1261
01:49:02.630 --> 01:49:09.450
Yeah. I feel like I would notice if someone got censored. I don't think I've noticed yet. I mean, if if you don't notice, like, did they get censored?

1262
01:49:09.885 --> 01:49:11.265
Maybe. Yes. Probably.

1263
01:49:11.725 --> 01:49:16.225
That's probably the way It will look like they got shadow banned. It wouldn't look like they got censored.

1264
01:49:16.925 --> 01:49:46.965
So it's hard to tell. It's it's the lack of something. Right? I mean, this is where it does does matter, like, who the ride or die original nostril users are. Right? Because it's not just, like, I love our developers. Like, I I all of you guys here are doing great work, contributing to open source software on the nostril protocol, but, like, a lot of it does also come down to, like, who are the original users, who are the router dot users. And I think a lot of Nas users just wouldn't accept it. Like, if there was, like, one person that no one really gave a shit about

1265
01:49:47.345 --> 01:49:49.125
and they were like, I'm getting blocked,

1266
01:49:50.280 --> 01:49:52.940
I think even that right now would get significant

1267
01:49:53.639 --> 01:49:54.139
traction.

1268
01:49:54.440 --> 01:49:57.739
I would blast if they did it, I would blast it out to all the relays.

1269
01:49:59.155 --> 01:50:02.455
Yep. Another way to look at it is everyone's getting shadow banned right now.

1270
01:50:03.075 --> 01:50:03.575
Why?

1271
01:50:04.275 --> 01:50:14.805
Because there's only because of all the stuff we've been talking about. There's only 10,000 users, so it's like, who the fuck is shit? Twitter is reading this stuff for me. I promise you people on Twitter are reading the shit.

1272
01:50:15.365 --> 01:50:17.625
They pretend they're not post something spicy.

1273
01:50:18.085 --> 01:50:20.905
You post something spicy, the blue checks realize right away.

1274
01:50:21.685 --> 01:50:25.030
I've done this test. My test was more successful than your test, Vijay.

1275
01:50:26.850 --> 01:50:29.110
Pablo knows exactly what test I did.

1276
01:50:32.695 --> 01:50:42.315
I literally I I sent a single note out that was, like, who rugs first, Swan or Binance, and Corey Klipschian was in my DMs in fucking 15 minutes.

1277
01:50:43.400 --> 01:50:44.780
Straight to the big relay.

1278
01:50:51.835 --> 01:50:54.395
Okay, gents. Alright. Here's my final thoughts.

1279
01:50:54.715 --> 01:50:57.695
Nostril will I yeah. Nostril will un gay the frogs.

1280
01:50:58.239 --> 01:51:01.940
We're gonna un gay the frogs. Tell Alex Jones. Pablo, final thoughts.

1281
01:51:02.800 --> 01:51:03.940
Can I do a shield?

1282
01:51:04.320 --> 01:51:05.655
Of course. Or the final thoughts?

1283
01:51:06.775 --> 01:51:07.275
Alright.

1284
01:51:07.735 --> 01:51:08.554
Very soft.

1285
01:51:09.175 --> 01:51:10.795
Apply for sovereign engineering.

1286
01:51:11.175 --> 01:51:12.635
We're running the 2nd cohort.

1287
01:51:14.719 --> 01:51:18.340
If you if you made it into the rest is to into the end of this,

1288
01:51:18.880 --> 01:51:20.020
podcast or livestream,

1289
01:51:20.555 --> 01:51:21.455
You 100%

1290
01:51:21.835 --> 01:51:24.495
belong. You are a 100% in.

1291
01:51:26.555 --> 01:51:27.535
Now Congratulations.

1292
01:51:28.074 --> 01:51:29.055
You've been accepted.

1293
01:51:29.460 --> 01:51:32.360
You you are fully accepted. Book your ticket.

1294
01:51:33.860 --> 01:51:38.815
Sovereign Engineering dot io. What is Sovereign Engineering? Can you actually give a proper Yeah. So yeah.

1295
01:51:39.535 --> 01:51:43.875
Good idea. Yeah. So Sovereign Engineering is a program that we're running with Gigi here in Madeira.

1296
01:51:44.574 --> 01:51:46.835
The idea is to bring 21 people,

1297
01:51:47.640 --> 01:51:56.985
that want to work on Freedom Tech, that they want to make a difference shipping something that matters. So you should be a developer. You should be able to ship stuff.

1298
01:51:58.744 --> 01:52:00.364
We also have a few designers,

1299
01:52:00.824 --> 01:52:05.820
but it it's like you should be someone that can ship their own their own thing. And

1300
01:52:07.159 --> 01:52:09.739
it it's great. We did the first the first cohort.

1301
01:52:10.119 --> 01:52:13.020
It was for 2 months from, January to March.

1302
01:52:13.344 --> 01:52:15.045
We got a bunch of shit done.

1303
01:52:15.505 --> 01:52:18.565
Npad.cash came out of it. Blossom came out of it.

1304
01:52:18.945 --> 01:52:20.725
A bunch of really exciting things,

1305
01:52:21.425 --> 01:52:22.565
confidential DBMs.

1306
01:52:23.920 --> 01:52:29.619
A a bunch of really interesting things came out and will be coming out. It's a really good opportunity to to

1307
01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:34.765
just bond with people that have the same values as you do. So, yeah, consider it.

1308
01:52:35.785 --> 01:52:39.005
Yeah. I mean, I would just wholeheartedly recommend Sovereign Engineering.

1309
01:52:40.130 --> 01:52:42.070
You guys are crushing it over there. And

1310
01:52:42.610 --> 01:52:47.030
if you're a young aspiring developer and you love Nostra and you love Bitcoin, you should definitely

1311
01:52:47.335 --> 01:52:49.915
definitely check it out. And you made it this long, so you already accepted.

1312
01:52:50.614 --> 01:52:52.395
Fia, Jeff, final thoughts.

1313
01:52:55.790 --> 01:52:56.850
I don't have any.

1314
01:52:57.630 --> 01:52:59.570
I hope people enjoy the games.

1315
01:53:01.230 --> 01:53:04.770
I do. I really did. If you have no thoughts, you can't get censored.

1316
01:53:05.495 --> 01:53:05.995
Exactly.

1317
01:53:09.015 --> 01:53:10.155
Mike. Mike,

1318
01:53:10.615 --> 01:53:23.500
thanks for joining us. Final thoughts. I don't have any final thoughts either. I don't I don't know. Mike, like, completely regret he's like, I shouldn't have joined the podcast. I shouldn't develop on Nostril. Like, what the fuck am I doing with my life? So just post the truth social.

1319
01:53:24.845 --> 01:53:33.025
Oh, no. No. No. No. No. I love Nostril. I I love Nostril. I'm I'm I love where I'm at. I love that I can do this for a job. That's fucking amazing.

1320
01:53:33.500 --> 01:53:33.900
So,

1321
01:53:34.940 --> 01:53:40.159
let's fucking go. Well, I appreciate you all. I appreciate all the freaks who joined us in the live chat,

1322
01:53:40.619 --> 01:53:42.559
even though there were some technical difficulties.

1323
01:53:43.555 --> 01:53:46.615
We're working through them. We're improving, proving over time.

1324
01:53:48.035 --> 01:53:48.775
As always,

1325
01:53:49.235 --> 01:53:53.270
sale dispatch is a 100% audience funded. We have no ads. We have no sponsors.

1326
01:53:54.449 --> 01:53:56.550
We're here purely to serve you,

1327
01:53:57.010 --> 01:53:57.510
and

1328
01:53:57.935 --> 01:54:03.315
I'm incredibly grateful for everyone who sends Bitcoin to the show to to support the show and and and keep

1329
01:54:03.775 --> 01:54:09.710
you don't really keep the lights on. Like, I I pay out of pocket for the lights, but but thank you for your support. It it does mean a lot.

1330
01:54:11.530 --> 01:54:17.715
Easiest way to support the show is to subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Share it with friends and family. Leave a review.

1331
01:54:19.775 --> 01:54:26.960
Ideally, a good review, but, you know, you can leave whatever kind of review you want. And, podcasting 2 point o apps, Fountain Breeze,

1332
01:54:27.260 --> 01:54:28.640
I do read all the comments.

1333
01:54:29.660 --> 01:54:31.905
Thank you if you left a comment in this app.

1334
01:54:32.625 --> 01:54:33.925
I appreciate you all.

1335
01:54:34.465 --> 01:54:40.724
Guys, you guys have been fucking crushing it. Thank you for building out Nostr and allowing me to shitpost without limits.

1336
01:54:42.340 --> 01:54:45.080
It truly is beautiful. I couldn't I I

1337
01:54:45.460 --> 01:54:48.199
all my shitposts were would not be possible without you guys.

1338
01:54:49.415 --> 01:54:52.235
So thank you. Thank you for making dreams a reality.

1339
01:54:54.615 --> 01:54:55.115
Yeah.

1340
01:54:55.670 --> 01:54:58.090
Thank you for shaming the Twitter people

1341
01:54:58.469 --> 01:54:59.210
all day.

1342
01:54:59.830 --> 01:55:03.770
I'm gonna continue I'm gonna continue to do that. That's that's my role,

1343
01:55:05.395 --> 01:55:07.415
and it's beautiful. So thank you, guys.

1344
01:55:08.034 --> 01:55:09.175
Maybe in, like,

1345
01:55:10.915 --> 01:55:16.600
4 months, 5 months, let's bring the whole crew back on. You know? Hopefully, someone gets censored at that point.

1346
01:55:17.620 --> 01:55:21.880
Hopefully, we, like, we have our Alex Jones model moment. Maybe we have, like,

1347
01:55:22.465 --> 01:55:25.205
by the way, I'm using Alex Jones as a example,

1348
01:55:27.025 --> 01:55:30.005
not him specifically. I mean, maybe he specifically joins.

1349
01:55:31.700 --> 01:55:33.320
But, yeah, it'd be cool to

1350
01:55:34.740 --> 01:55:39.335
reconvene and and do another work call and and and see what the flex going on.

1351
01:55:40.295 --> 01:55:40.795
Cheers.

1352
01:55:42.455 --> 01:55:43.915
Cool. Thanks for coming out, man.

1353
01:59:56.305 --> 01:59:57.205
Love you, freaks.

1354
01:59:57.825 --> 01:59:58.805
Keep it spicy.

1355
01:59:59.185 --> 02:00:01.925
I didn't think Pablo realizes that he's still in the stream.

1356
02:00:02.305 --> 02:00:02.965
I wasn't.

1357
02:00:04.130 --> 02:00:05.989
I I didn't. Pablo, thank you.

1358
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Freaks, I got the CEO of Phoenix Wallet coming in on Tuesday, 1700 UTC,

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And then I have Tony,

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the creator of blaster and mutiny wallet coming in the week after that. Also, Tuesday, 1700 UTC.

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Might add something in between there. Not sure yet. Love you all. Stay humble, stack stats. Fuck the suits.