Oba Manu, Family Guy - Parent Tropes and Pastoral Hopes with Navaar Seik-Jackson (Pathfinder 2e)

0:00 As a person who lives in the real world and not only as a father, but as a Black father, knowing that violence can go so, so wrong, so quickly. And so wanting to just avoid that at any cost, but also having obviously a very deep primal desire to protect my family. To me, Pathfinder 2, you felt like this is truly living in the power fantasy that I wanted from 5th edition. I just want to raise a child and just enjoy a simple life without having to like walk down into a dungeon. Hello friends, welcome to Characters Without Stories, a TTRPG podcast about the roads not yet traveled.

1:14 I'm Star. This episode I'm joined by Navaar Seik-Jackson, a narrative game designer, podcaster, and occasional TTRPG performer. Navaar enjoys providing a platform for marginalized people in the TTRPG space to tell their stories, and exploring the apocalypse as a setting with nuanced themes. You may have heard of Navaar from the Secret Nerd podcast, An Unwavering Force podcast, or his game The Corrupted. Navaar, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you for having me. So happy to have you. Um, do you want to tell me a little bit about how you got into TTRPGs? Yeah, sure. Uh, so I've always been a fan of fantasy, uh, as a genre.

1:56 Uh, that's pretty much all that I read as a kid growing up, and I wanna say I've learned about D&D as a brand by playing the first two Baldur Gate games. Mhmm. It was like a thing that was like, vaguely ethereal existed in a space I didn't understand. And we played the games and I enjoyed like, you know, being able to play these games. This is around the time, I think, when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out. So yeah, just being able to play an archer, which has always been like my favorite archetype of fighter. It was a lot of fun. So that kind of went on. And then when I was in high school, my friend, his dad had, I think the red box, the D&D red box. So we were looking at it and asking what it was.

2:38 And he said he would run it for us. And then he never did. So it wasn't until I was about, uh, 19 years old that I got to play for the first time. I played a D&D 3.5. And it was amazing. I was a shifter ranger, of course, because that's always what I make is a ranger. Yeah, it was really cool. I only got to play like a few sessions before I ended up moving back home, but I really just enjoyed like the customization and the sort of freeform storytelling. And then from there, it took a long time. It was like nine years of not getting anybody else around me to be able to play. So I just continue to like read 3.5 and try to convince friends to play and then nobody wants to do it.

3:18 And it wasn't until 5th edition had already been out and I had some other friends that were already playing. And so we started to set up a game and I think we played like five sessions. This was I want to say in 2019. We were actually already playing remotely because it was just hard to get everybody in the same room anyway. So when COVID hit, it was just an easy transition, but I got, I ended up getting Pathfinder second edition for Christmas and basically immediately switched to that and have not looked back. And I've just been sort of playing that and, uh, running, I did a home game for awhile and now I'm a player in a home game. And when I decided to make a podcast. It sort of opened the door for me to experience a lot more games, game design philosophies and be able to like, be a player and to GM for other games and then to create and then bring people into games that I've made.

4:09 So yeah, it was like, it took a long time to get here, but then once I got here, then it was kind of full force. Yeah, I feel like so many people I talked to, myself included, got into D&D and TTRPGs and then just were hooked and starting podcasts, just so intensely into it, really enjoying the hobby. So I completely get that. I think it's the also during COVID, a lot of us also learned that we were neurodivergent. I think there's probably, that is probably also a contributing factor. But truly, for me, especially as somebody who grew up wanting to be a writer, having this way that I can play games, which is something I've always loved, and tell stories, which is something I've always loved, and like be able to marry those two things, I think has been amazing for fun and hobby and creation and everything else.

5:00 I'm curious, are you playing Baldur's Gate 3 at all? Yeah, I did for a little bit. I think I made it into the second act. It was fun. I get bored of video games quickly, and I also Do not like 5e as a system anymore. So that was sort of a difficult mental obstacle for me, uh, as a player of it. And the other thing that really got me was, it felt like when it came out, everybody was like making their characters and I assumed that the character customization was deeper than it is. I went through a lot of like, I am excited about this and also very disappointed in this game. And that like, rollercoaster sort of burnt me out by the second act. I might return to it at some point, but I get why people play it and enjoy it.

5:43 It's just, there are aspects of it that I, that no longer interest me, so. The reason I was asking, because I was also an avid player of Baldur's Gate 2, very excited when Baldur's Gate 3 came out. I really enjoy Baldur's Gate 3 as a video game, I'm not really into video games at all, but, uh, I totally get why, as somebody who transferred away from 5e, that that might not work for you. How can I put this? Like, the illusion of choice that the game gives you, where it's like, oh, you can do anything, and it's like, cool, cool, I don't want to kill all these goblins. Can I do that? No. You don't have a choice in this. So there's a lot of things that the game forces you to do or be party of that it's just like, I just don't want to do it. I spent a solid, I want to say like three hours, just trying not to have the little goblin children die in one of the encounters.

6:32 So, yeah, I was, there's a lot of things where I'm like, uh, I don't know. But on the other hand, like, there are parts of it that are fun, but there's also parts like as a Pathfinder 2E player, where I'm like, ah, I'm so powerful and I can only attack one time and this really drives me bananas. So yeah. So you're bringing a character for Pathfinder. Yes. Tell me what you like about Pathfinder that's better for you than D&D. So for me, like, I think the thing that coming into D&D 5th edition for the first time, the thing that really stuck out to me was just like this feeling of, you're supposed to be this hero, this hero character. But your ability to do things that felt like you were like living in a power fantasy felt like it didn't happen until like at least fifth level and that was only for certain character classes.

7:21 So when you start and it's like you can attack one time you're rolling with the d6 You only have 15 AC, you've got like 12 hit points, like, all of it just felt like, ah, this, my character's gonna get beaten up very quickly. So I was like, okay, like, I get, like, you know, we're gonna grow and all this stuff, but Pathfinder 2e, when I first got it and looked at it, it's like, you can do three attacks immediately. As a level zero character, which you can make, you can do three attacks. You take a penalty for it, but you can still be active in that way. And so I really enjoyed the action economy of it. Your hit points are higher. You're not rolling for it. You just have like a base for your class and a base for your ancestry.

8:01 I believe your AC goes up every level you go up. So the difficulty increases as well. Like the harder monsters also can hit higher, but like the numbers just felt good. It feels good to roll like a 35. I've rolled in An Unwavering Force session last week. I rolled a 35 to pull off absolute shenanigans, uh, as a fifth level character. And yeah, it's going to be a great episode when that all comes to fruition. To me, it was that. It was like, to me, Pathfinder 2, you felt like this is truly living in the power fantasy that I wanted, that I wanted from fifth edition. And then just listening to like APs and stuff, it just felt like even though a lot of the characters would be higher level and they could do like more damage and stuff, it didn't have the fluidity that I wanted or the action that I wanted out of it.

8:48 And so once I read second edition and started to play it, I was like, I'm hooked on it. Cause you can make a character, like basically if you're just a normal fighter, you on your second attack, you take a minus five and on your third attack, you take a minus 10, which is, can be a lot, but you can be like, if you're a ranger, for instance, and you're using an agile weapon, you can just take a minus two and a minus four, which is incredible. Then you're just constantly hitting. Fighters I think can even do something around the same range or they can basically combine two attacks into one action and just forego that penalty for that first one. And it can be very brutal. So yeah, I was like, okay, well there's a lot of ways to build this. I love character customization. You gain multiple different feats that all, like, center around how your character is built and make some unique.

9:32 So there's just a lot of things in there that really stuck out to me that made it more appealing. They also, when I started learning about it, was around the time that they were gearing up to put out The Mwangi Expanse. And that is a book that's basically, Golarion is like the world, it's like basically like So it's like the world that the setting is built in. In Golarion, there's all these different continents and countries, and there's a continent that is like, basically, the fantasy Africa. And so they had canon orcs, elves, halflings, dwarves, that were Black. And to me that was amazing to see. Cause, that's just not something you really see in a 5th edition books, especially back in 2018, 2020.

10:13 So I was like, okay, there's a lot of things that this is doing right for me, specifically, that made it easy for me to transition that way. Yeah. Well, and Pathfinder isn't making Hadozee level mistakes either. Right, yeah. And they recently put out a book that has monkey ancestry, and it is written so well, with so much care. Also, among Secret Nerd Podcast and An Unwaving Force, I'm also the host of, uh, the No Direction Podcast, the co host of the No Direction Podcast, which is a Pathfinder 2e podcast, so, yeah, I could go on and on about all the new stuff that's come out when it comes to that, and how, you know, they hire writers to, to write from culture that they exist in, and put things out with a lot of care, so.

10:53 Yeah. No Hadozee level mistakes, for sure. You mentioned power fantasy, and I think that's a really interesting topic. Is being a hero your power fantasy? Is being able to attack three times in a turn or what is it that's underlying all of that? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've always like grown up enjoying those kind of stories, enjoying like the hero of the story. You know, I remember like the first time I played Fable, for instance, my friends, they were like doing like the evil run through. And I just can't, like, even in video games, I just can't bring myself to do it. Yeah. I'm just like, yeah, but I'm just gonna go full Paragon or whatever it's called in whatever game.

11:34 So that's always the way that I like to play it. I enjoy, like, the ideal of being the hero of the story. And I think, like, as I've gotten older, it's easier for me to, like, add more nuance into there. Um, and to understand, like, you know, we're still enacting violence in this game and, and how does that work for your character and how does that impact your character? But yeah, I, I just enjoy that aspect of it, because I think, like, growing up in a place that wasn't always safe for me and, and my friends and my siblings, like, it created in me a desire to protect the people around me and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't and at least in this way of the character that I'm playing is powerful and can protect those around them with with more skill and and athleticism than than I could.

12:20 So. You mentioned that you usually play rangers. I'm a huge fan of that archetype myself, but you're not bringing a Ranger to the table today. I'm not. Yeah. Trying to break my, uh, my typecast here. Yeah. So tell me, who are you bringing to the table? Yeah, the character I'm bringing today is, uh, Oba Manu, and this is a character concept that I kinda came up with as, like, just dreaming about wanting to play Pathfinder 2E. So I am playing in a game, but the game I'm playing in is an adventure path for magic school and I'm playing a sorcerer also divine sorcerer. So I'm almost getting there with my cleric, but I really had this like fun idea of just sort of being this like veteran cleric who had retired already.

13:06 And it's just like wants to live on his farm with this family and has this old friend who kind of that like trope of like one last job and, and reeling them back in. And so yeah, I just really love this idea of like, what does that mean for this character to have an adult child who's like ready to go off on the world, but hasn't left the nest yet. And you have to like say goodbye to them and, and like let them know they're set on their way and like worry about that as, as a parent who raised their kid for that long and your spouse and the farm and the community and all this stuff, like what does that mean to sort of have to step out of that responsibility into something else? And what is it that's going to draw you away?

13:46 And this idea of like how that looks when you're watching all the things that are happening around you in the adventure in the campaign. And just wishing you could be back on your farm with your family. I loved that, like, idea of just sort of creating a complex character that way, who in his prime was like, you know, maybe like a 15th level character, and now has not done much of anything other than, you know, raise this farm and you know, do some, like, true medicine healing for people that don't need, like, a miracle to save them. This kind of, like, old sort of folk hero who just, who just wanted to be a part of the community and now has to, like, you know, sigh and step back into it all and, like, pulling the shield and the weapon off the, off the rack on the wall, dusting off the old armor, that kind of stuff.

14:31 Yeah, why did Oba retire in the first place? I think it was just a matter of the adventure that he set out to do was done and somewhere along those lines he met his partner and they settled down and he just wanted to just be done with it. And so I really loved the idea of like, yeah, I just want to raise, raise a child, be with my partner and just enjoy a simple life without having to like walk down into a dungeon facing, you know, hordes of undead or stare down armies of bandits and ancestral dragons and things like that. Just let me just live a simple life. And there's only one thing that can bring you back. And I can't believe you did that to me today, but here we are. How much do you relate to that, this desire to live a simple life?

15:14 A lot. Yeah. Almost all of us, right, we're all sort of trapped into this sort of capitalistic cycle that we exist in, but since I was a kid I've always loved the idea of just like owning a ranch and just living off the land. Or even not off the land but like living in a small community and just like the work is like the thing that you do when you go outside and you do the work and then you can feel the hard day of work and then you just relax and exist and you know meet up with friends and that kind of thing. As opposed to like going into the office and sitting in traffic and all that stuff. Pastoral life is such a uh, ideal, I think it just one that's so unrealistic for myself and my family right now, but it is definitely an ideal. I grew up in a place that was pretty rural.

15:55 I didn't grow up on a farm or a ranch, but I did grow up in a place that was pretty rural. And so, you know, just the enjoyment of like playing outside in the dirt and using your imagination to pass time and things like that. I think still, even if it's hard to go back to that and achieve it, sometimes in real life, it's, it's something that I enjoy as an ideal still. So, you have kids? I do. Yeah, I have three. How old are they? Are any of them nearing the age of, uh, Oba's child? No. Thank goodness. No. My oldest is six. So, yeah. It's, I still have some time to get used to that idea, but it does fly by pretty quickly. But that's a big part of why Oba's kid is adult age, is because the idea of actually leaving a child, to me, seems like that's not happening.

16:40 If Oba had a six year old kid, there's nothing you can do to convince him to go back out on an adventure, because despite the trope of fantasy TTRPGs, we should let these people have parents, something I would like to continue to do, so, yeah, that was a big part of why that was made the way it was, because I just, the idea of leaving a child behind to run off and swing a morningstar is just absolutely ludicrous to me. You're playing a cleric. What god does Oba worship? Just using the pantheon that was built for Golarion. So Golarion also in their setting books when they add new places like the Mwangi Expanse, they also add a few new deities, which is really awesome.

17:22 So the one that I have been looking at for him, I'm probably going to get the pronunciation wrong, is Tlehar. She's like this catfolk deity, and is all about kind of like living up to your full potential, giving whatever it is you're doing, including farming, right, is like giving yourself fully to it, you know, making sure that you're treasuring gifts that are given to you. So in Pathfinder, there's edicts, which is like the thing you follow, and anathema, which is the thing you cannot do or you will lose your power. So like the anathema for her is losing your motivation to your regrets, spreading despair, and treating your loved ones poorly. And so obviously that really stuck out to me as things that would be idealistic for, for Oba is to sort of follow this philosophy of, you know, putting family first.

18:07 Putting whatever it is we're doing, I did my best as an adventurer, and now that's done, and I'm gonna do my best as a father, and a husband, and a farmer, and the town healer. I just really enjoy that aspect of it, and like having sort of a god that's not like, one of the like, the major in the pantheon, but somebody that fits into his outlook on what his life is like in his community. And, is this the same god that he worshipped when he was out adventuring as well? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I feel like it was just a matter of, I will continue to do the work here, but this is what I'm pursuing now. Yeah, because it seems like that's a god that is maybe more well suited to a simple life.

18:47 Yeah, it's really fun. I enjoy this aspect of it. There's a lot of the deities here, where I feel like the Mwangi Expanse has definitely built like the writers that did it. It seemed like a lot of them had a focus of community. And so there are other deities here that also have sort of these community centered edicts in different ways, but things that are based around how we treat the others around us that share our space. Are you personally religious at all? No, not at all. Yeah, it's very funny. My co host for No Direction is, I don't know if pastor is the right word for her, but literally somebody who like is fully entrenched in religion. It makes for a great conversation, because for me I'm an atheist, IRL, and I enjoy the idea of having these deities in a fantasy TTRPG that exist.

19:34 It's not a debate. You can be a quote unquote atheist in Pathfinder, but it doesn't mean the same thing as what we would say here. It's more of, you know that the gods exist, but you don't think that they have any dominion over what happens in the world. You don't acknowledge it, which is, I think, like, that could be fun to play. I do like the idea of just like, well, they do exist in this world and we can just actually engage with them in a certain way. So even as a GM, I think it's fun if somebody wants that to be a part of it. I remember my first 2e home game I ran, the players early on were like getting sort of signs from their gods as like they were going through the world. They were like helping them understand the world around them and I think that that's a lot of fun to do.

20:14 It's a magical place, like, we should engage with it. Yeah, and I think deities and pantheons and all of that can tell you a lot about a world as well. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's fun to, in the ways that they share space, there's a new setting book called Tian Xia, which is like, basically, to simplify it, is like fantasy Asia. That has just come out. And one of the gods in there is the god of heaven. But like, over the past however many years, there have been other gods who were like rulers of this, of this other dominion. So I love how it works. They exist together canonically, but also how cultures approach different ones depends on your region and the culture you grew up with.

20:55 And all these other aspects of it, which I think is a really interesting way to like tie in how that works. There could be other clerics that Oba could run into that they could probably agree on everything when it comes to how they move through the world and what they want to pursue, but they're still worshipping different gods. And I think that that's really fascinating. Right. It sounds like Oba is very dedicated to these edicts and that is kind of his vow or his motto for moving through the world. So you would say that he is a principled person. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was like something else, you know, just in the role play, if I had ever got to play the character of just like, what does it mean to sort of be like the old dad, right, of the group.

21:36 And like, as a person who is sometimes a lot older than a lot of my TTRPG space, it's interesting to be like, I see you and I see what you're doing and I want to give you the space to like make your own decisions, learn from your own lessons and all that stuff. But also I'm here if you need advice, uh, or you need, if you need support, you know, or, or if you, or wisdom, whatever it is to just kind of help. So I love that idea of like, here's this group that I can be wise for, but there's also this person who brought me into this that I'm sort of beholden to, and what does that relationship look like when you're trying to find the push and pull of when am I giving you too much advice and when am I not giving you enough?

22:17 That's a lot of fun. Who is this person that got Oba back into adventuring? I don't know, like I think in my brain it was always another PC. You know, in the session zero have this sort of connection. And yeah, I mean, it kind of depends. Like I could see it being like person from the adventuring party or a child of somebody from the adventuring party or just somebody like tangentially related, but still knows who Oba is and knows how to call in that favor. That part of it is something where it's like, I know Star's going to ask about this, but I also know it is something that to me is open ended because it's so reliant on the other players. It's good to have some space for other players or for the GM to fill in or help build with you.

23:00 Yeah, I am, I can be very all or nothing when it comes to character where I'm like, you give me the space, I will write pages of backstory and, you know, short fiction for this character. Or I could just let things be open and kind of give you some, like, themes that I want to hit and the GM go from there. But I know if I don't think about it consciously, I, I have to pace myself, so. Because it's so easy for me, like, as a person who just grew up wanting to tell stories, to just completely go into a full write the campaign situation. And it's like, well, I'm the player that's in this, there are other people here, we gotta collaborate. So, how in depth did you get with Oba? Not too in depth, really, because it was a matter of that, and then also, just not knowing when I'll ever get to play him, which is, you know, obviously why we're here.

23:47 But I really wanted to just kind of give him the chance to build off what the story is Other people bring to the table and then go from there. And to me, I feel like I'm a pretty decent improviser as a player and as a GM. So to me, there's a lot of stuff where it's like, okay, as I get more details from other players, I can start to fill in some of this stuff and like how he would interact with others. Maybe some of the feats he did when he was younger, things like that. One thing that I have been thinking about a lot is, as much as, like, clerics are always, like, you fight the undead, like, that's your thing, he obviously can do that because he's a cleric, but I think, like, for him, that wasn't a big part of his experiences. It wasn't a lot of undead stuff. It was more of, like, be there as a protector both in body and in spirit of of the other players.

24:58 A small ship rides the salt laden wind across the sea. The sound of waves striking the side of the vessel. Echo from below this ship, though small. Carries with it the potential to change the world as we know it. If the crew can overcome their demons, that is. Hales of Yavard is an actual play podcast using the brand new Mythcraft system developed by Quasi Real Publishing. The first campaign, The Sea's Tale, follows our heroes struggling against pirates. Mercenaries and crime families as they seek to discover the truth of a terrible attack. The secrets they may uncover on this journey will bring them closer to that truth, but the cost may be greater than any of them know.

25:42 Listen wherever you get your podcasts and find us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Threads, and TikTok under Tales of Yvard pod. What was the inspiration that, that one little spark that got you started putting pen to paper on Oba? Probably was a show that I watched would be my guess, though I can't think of what it is anymore because he's been sort of sitting at the top of the list of characters I want to play for a long time, but I'm sure there was something like that. I just can't think of what it was, but a lot of the things that I create and characters that I get interested in stem from that, from, you know, media that I watch.

26:29 I mean, there's been so many, I feel like 2023 was an absolute amazing year for television. And so yeah, so TV, movies, things like that, books all kind of lend to how I get excited about characters. I wish I knew, because I'm going to probably watch it again sooner, and be like, ah, that's what it was. But yeah, I don't know right now. You're going to have to record a little voiceover of you just telling me about it, and send it in. Do the post edit. Yeah. I want to go back to this idea of having a family. I know that it's a little bit of a cliche or a trope that TTRPG players build their characters without family so that they don't have those ties.

27:11 Personally, I tend to, I try to go against that and to always have at least one living family member. But I love the idea of having family members that actually depend on you, like children and like partners who, who are living. And if you weren't adventuring, you'd be with them. What is it that made you choose that? Is it, were you going against this kind of trope or is there another reason? Honestly, it was probably a big factor for me recently has been thinking about sort of character conflict. The game that I designed and have published that you mentioned at the beginning is called The Corrupted. In that system, every character sheet has stress and conflict. So as you gain stress, you engage with your conflict with the other player as the game goes on.

27:55 And so I've thought about that a lot, of just like, having characters that aren't one dimensional. And what does that look like when you're forced to make tough decisions. And what does it look like when you're sort of about to go into an empty nest or situation and there's a part of you that's ready to go back out in the world? And what does that look like? And like, how do you reconcile that? Not only with your child, but also with your spouse. So for me as a person who has really enjoyed the narrative roleplay aspect of games a lot more over the past couple years, that to me is like, I love it. I love the tension of having to deal with that and knowing that it's probably not going to be an easy conversation, that there's going to be a lot of mess involved and that those tough decisions are going to come back and bite you maybe and, and haunt you as you continue on your story.

28:43 And, you know, what does that look like for Oba as he's sitting next to the campfire months out of starting this thing and missing his family and wanting to go back home and living in a world where there's no cell phones, right? And magical communication is expensive. Even if it's not financially expensive, it's still that costs you something that you can't do later on when you might need it. So yeah, I just love those tough decisions. And I love conflict. I loved narrative conflict, I should say. I don't love actual conflict in my life. I don't want any of that. But narrative conflict, I think, is a lot of fun. It sounds like Oba would be a more cautious adventurer, because he has a lot more to lose. I think so, yeah.

29:24 How does he approach adventuring? It's this, like, very tight balance of caution and protection. Knowing that if needed, he will throw himself into the fray to protect the people around him, but also knowing, like, he has to get out of it alive so he can return home. I think that makes for great moments. Going back to like, the roleplay and like, the power fantasy of it, like, yes, of course I'm playing a character who can do incredible things, but also, to me, it's more exciting to be like, we absolutely could all just attack this thing at once and destroy it in six seconds. Or, we could try something else, you know. And I think, like, the right GM can find ways to make that engaging and still have moments where combat, you can't just get out of it, right, and you have to have it.

30:10 And have it be meaningful and impactful. And so, to me, I really enjoy that aspect of a character of, of even though I could, I don't want to, and I don't think we should. And that is, to me, really, really fun, narratively. I can imagine, like you were saying, this party dynamic of Oba being the party dad. Going along with this caution, I can see, you know, being like, Oh my God, why did you do that? Why did you just run into that battle? I had to protect you. I didn't want to have to do that. Yeah, like that is very relatable as a person who lives in the real world. And not only as a father, but as a Black father, knowing that violence can go so, so wrong so quickly.

30:54 And so wanting to just avoid that at any cost, but also having obviously a very deep primal desire to protect my family. And so thankfully, I haven't had to be in that situation as a father, but it's sort of an ever present thing when you know, you look like I do and live in America. It's something that, again, kind of going back to like, being in this world of TTRPGs, it's a way that I can engage with those things without the risk of real life consequences. And still have it be situations where I'm doing everything I can to avoid the violence, however the story plays out, is what happens, and what other characters in the game do, what other PCs do, of course, can change things, but this is something that I can engage with that is safe, and I don't have to worry about what those real life consequences could be, because it's just a game.

31:39 So, in the worlds that you play in, you would say that things like racism don't exist? I don't think that that's something that's always the case, but I think it's very dependent on the group of players that I'm playing with and the GM that I'm playing with. To me, safety is paramount, and a lot of people of color don't want to engage with racism at the table. And more often than not, I am included in that as well. I think that there are specific occasions with specific groups of people where I would be comfortable with dealing with that at the table, but it's few and far between. But I do think that there are other conflicts that can be sort of an allegory for that same type of situation, that it doesn't have to necessarily be racism.

32:24 In Unwavering Force, we're not dealing with racism, but I am playing a Jedi who is, you know, being hunted down by the Empire. So there is that aspect of there's a group of people who want my group of people to be gone. I think it truly matters based on the table. What is Oba's ancestry? Oh, that's a good question. Oba is an orc. That was another part. I really enjoy having an orc be the soft dad. That's pretty cute. Yeah. What does he look like? He's big. I think, yeah, he's, I think he's big. And I think he's very, like, strong, but also, like, very soft in his body. Very dad bod, farmer type.

33:05 He's still green. And I think he's got, like, dreadlocks, these long hair that he, you know, pulls back part of it, probably has some tusks that have, you know, are weathered and probably once cracked from just age and fighting. Because one of the feats that I took for his ancestry, I believe, is a Scar-Thick Skin. So it's easier for him to stop the bleeding condition in Pathfinder 2E because he's been through so much. He has all these scars that his body is like, his skin is very tough. In his normal farmer life, he just wears sort of like a, just a very basic commoners clothes, and it's not until he has to, like, put on the armor that he goes and, and does that. But I think even then, yeah, he carries a morningstar and a shield, and I think he also has a longbow, because he's a war priest, so he can use martial weapons, and yeah, he just tries to avoid being in the mix, but if he has to get in the mix, then he'll do it.

33:58 And he's got a plus two to his strength and lots of con, so. Tell me a little bit about his build. So basically, Pathfinder does like, ABC, so Ancestry, Background, Class. Orc. His background is the Warrior, just cause it made the most sense for all of his adventuring stuff. And then Cleric, of course. I put him at level 5. You get a lot of attribute boosts in Pathfinder 2E, so he's got a plus 2 to his Strength, plus 2 to Dex, plus 4 to Con, 1 to Intelligence, 4 to Wisdom, and a 0 in Charisma, because Charisma's a dump stat. But yeah, so a lot of his, like, he doesn't have a ton of skills because his intelligence isn't super high, but he's got good athletics, crafting from his deity that, that's where that came from.

34:40 Intimidation, lore in warfare, because that comes automatic with his background, I think. And because he's a war priest. Medicine is high. He has a plus 13 in medicine. Uh, nature, religion, and survival. And so really just this character who's very good at these specific things when it comes to like being a cleric and being a warrior adventurer, but also how do I live off the land? How do I hunt? How do I know what plants to eat? Uh, how do I know to, you know, uh, how to take care of this farm and grow it well? And those are his major focuses. And then the medicine was one. In Pathfinder 2, you can increase your skills by trained, expert, master, and legendary. So he's an expert in medicine already. And again, I just really love this idea of like, he could use magic to heal.

35:24 More often than not, he understands like, the people in the town that he lives in don't need magical healing. And so for him, and I think this is probably like, over the years, why his level has gone down, is so he just knows the right types of herbs to make, he knows how to like, bandage correctly, he knows how to set broken bones, things like that, and he uses that more often than not than actual magical healing, because he just knows that it's not always necessary to do. And I like the idea of like, the town, older folks know he is like this old cleric, and there's sort of this legend around it, but then some people probably don't even believe it, because it's like, I've never seen him do magic, what do you mean? Does he have, like, any clerical duties, a flock or anything like that?

36:06 No, yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. I feel like the god that he follows, you know, he's probably got, like, a shrine or something in his, on his homestead. But I don't feel like it's one of those things where it's, like, there's a whole, like, temple devoted to it, or at least not where he is. So I just really like this idea of him, like, you know, he'll talk to people about what's going on and his beliefs and give them advice, but mission is not, like, anything that he's, that appeals to him. Or has been, like, even pushed upon it. I haven't had the chance to play Pathfinder yet, so I don't know what a optimized character looks like in that system. How optimized is Oba? I would say a little optimized.

36:47 Like, Con and Wisdom is still, and Strength are still good for clerics to have. He's a 5th level character and he has 70 HP, so there's a little bit of optimization there. The thing that's fun about Pathfinder 2 is that because you can break everything down so much, it's easier to move away from optimization than it is to go towards it. You can definitely optimize to make an absolutely ridiculous character, but as you're looking at options and you're thinking about the way you're actually going to play, I think more often than not, you're going to end up in a situation where it doesn't work. It just makes more sense to do the thing that you would enjoy doing with your character. And the same way we can have a party of five characters, all of us could be playing clerics and all have different builds because of the way that you get general feats and you get skill feats and you get class feats and you get ancestry feats.

37:37 So all of those things based on what you want to do with your character and how your character is built change the way your character interacts. This would be some overlap, of course, but for the most part, it's much more difficult to optimize, I think, than it is to do the opposite. And especially if you did the remaster, I don't believe that you have specific ability modifiers for your character anymore. I could be wrong. Nobody yell at me, please. But I think it's kind of just like you pick whichever one you want. Tell me a little bit about his spouse. Hmm. Okay. I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't thought that much about it. That's totally fine. I think, like, truly, the spouse and the child, both, are just, like, ephemeral things.

38:21 Like, they are part of, of the idea of who Oba is, but nothing concrete until the game is made. In terms of, like, things that, like, come to the top of my head and make sense for Oba, I think it's just a person who also enjoys a pastoral life, who, you know, probably met Oba when he was, like, helping to save some town or something, and it was just sort of a quick romance. Clearly fancied each other, and for him it was just like, okay, we beat the big bad, so, uh, I don't think y'all need me anymore. And, I think it was just sort of, that situation, like, that very cute, they fell in love, and then they moved to a farmland, and grew up together, with all of his money that he gained from being an adventurer.

39:05 Yeah, so is he fabulously wealthy? I, he probably is, but I don't think it's a thing, like, for him that he thinks about. Like, he's got money stashed, I'm sure, but he probably doesn't even remember that he's got it. It's probably just, like, a thing that he's like, well, if my child wants to, like, go to the Magaambya, which is, like, the magic school, we could pay for their travel and everything that they'll need. So he doesn't worry about money, but he also doesn't spend it. I think which is another fun thing that I enjoy, I've found in, in games, is like just not being a treasure chaser, or like somebody who like needs all the gold. I spent a thousand credits on a bit, a bad bit, in, in, An Unwavering Force. Just as a way to be like, my character does not know what money is and does not care.

39:49 I just gave away a thousand credits. Yeah. To me, I enjoy like having characters that just, it's not their focus. Like he's got a nice farm, but it, in my brain, it has never been like a mansion, right? So he's been like, enough room for what they have and what they need. I feel like most of the time that's the tack I take, but recently I've played a couple of characters that are wizards, and oh my god, the amount of gold you have to spend to get new spells. Yeah, yeah. It really, it pushes you into that treasure hunting, I think. It really does, yeah. I, I think it's, it's interesting. And too, like, in video games, too, there's a lot of, situations where it's like, well, to get the better gear, you need more money.

40:31 And I think that that can happen, for sure, in Pathfinder 2E. I think it's great to just have a conversation with your GM about, like, these are things that I'd love to be able to find, however we end up finding them in game. I think that's a lot of fun. But yeah, I don't, I just never, like, the idea of just, like, paying to get the best thing to win, it's not as interesting to me as giving away a thousand credits to show you don't know what money is. You can do something else for your shopping episode. Yeah. Yeah. Or just figure it out. You know? Yeah. Barter system, honestly, probably what else is a contributing factor to that is I'm, as a person who is now 36, I am so sick of capitalism.

41:12 And so like, I long to just be like, can we just barter for something? You need a favor? Sure, I'll go do that thing. I'll go do this side quest real quick to pay for the thing that you have that would cost me endless gold otherwise. For me, part of the power fantasy of playing TTRPGs is having the resources and the time to help people. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because capitalism really makes us be out for ourselves because we're all struggling so hard to just to get by that it's hard to have the additional time and energy and funds to give as much as you want to give to other people.

41:53 Does Oba have a voice? He probably just has, like, a deeper register of my voice as sort of my go to for a character that big. No, I don't think so. Hopefully I get to play him one day. My GM of An Unwavering Force, Dusty, says that they will run a game, that they've got a game in mind, where I could play Oba. But that has yet to be seen, so we'll see. We'll see. Oba, do you have any scars? And how did you get them? Yes, I have many scars. Uh, scars that I gained protecting my friends. And the amount of them and the stories behind them would take many nights by a campfire to tell. What's your worst scar?

42:33 Once, when traversing the jungle, we came upon a group of demons who had broken into this plane, and the battle was long fought, and by the end of it, we had won, but I had found myself with a poison sword run through my stomach, and it pierced the other side, and it took a while for us to be able to heal it properly. And so that scar still sits across my abdomen and across my back. Thank you, Navaar, for coming on the podcast and for sharing Oba with me and my listeners. Thank you for having me. Yes. It's a lot of fun. Do you have anything you want to share with my listeners?

43:15 Yeah, I'm doing a lot of things, too many things. But first thing I want to say is I've interviewed a ton of people about their experiences in the TTRPG space, focused on marginalized folks in that space, and also recently just put out a 10 part series actual play of The Corrupted, which is a game I designed. It's a game about living in the apocalypse with zombies that run fast and are very strong. And it's all about how you survive and deal with other survivors around you, and what that looks like as the world changes around you. The series is called Ties That Bind, and it's a really incredible story about these two survivors that come together and figure out how much their motivations factor into what they want to do once they get to know each other.

44:09 And we had a lot of fun. We had some very scary moments. Cried. And it's a really, really good show. It's all scored and sound designed by yours truly. So please check that out. If you enjoy apocalypse games or you haven't found an apocalypse game that you've enjoyed yet, I encourage you to check out The Corrupted. You can order it in print from Plus One EXP. PlusOneEXP.Com just search The Corrupted, or if you would like to just get the PDF and support me that way. NavaarSNP.itch.Io SNP like Secret Nerd Podcast and NAVAAR for Navaar. I just finished writing an expansion for the book, added some rules, some quality of life stuff, and that will be out on the PDF pretty soon.

44:57 And that will be out for all of the new print editions as well. And maybe there will be another fun thing going on that involves The Corrupted and my itch page around that time as well. I've got other games in the bank coming, a Sherlock game that I keep talking about that I need to finish. Because Sherlock is public domain now and I love that character. And another exciting fantasy game that I can't talk about yet because there's too many things that could change in between now and then. In my design process, really. So, yeah, I guess the easy thing, follow me on Twitter at NavaarSNP. Check out An Unwaving Force if you like Star Wars. We play Pathfinder 2E, but with Star Wars.

45:38 I play a Jedi when my class is, I'm dual classed as a ranger and a psychic, and my character is very powerful and very fun. I have a twin, one of the PCs. It's a whole wild experience. And if you want to learn more about Pathfinder 2E, check out No Direction, where I also co host. We talk about all the new books that are coming out. We talk about the things that inspire us. Because of those things, we talk to the authors who get to write in these books, a lot of the freelancers, and what inspired them about their own cultures and how they put it all together. And I think that's it. There'll be a link in the show notes to a guest profile on my website where you find all the links, all the information you want.

46:18 Please check that out and follow all of the many, many things that Navaar does. For my recommendation this episode, I'd like to introduce you to a podcast called Rene Plays Games. I recently listened to Rene's first episode of a series called Perspective Checks, about character tropes, and friends, even I learned something about character building. If you like hearing people talk about characters, which of course you do if you're listening right now, you'll love this episode. Give it a listen. I also featured Tales of Y'vard. Join them as they become the scourge of their enemies in an actual play in the brand new Mythcraft system. I started a newsletter! If you'd like to get a behind the scenes peek at the podcast, follow my other projects like my current all-woman actual play, and be notified when the new episode drops, you can find the signup form in the show notes or on my website.

47:12 Please share the podcast with a friend. Word of mouth is the best way to find new listeners. Your recommendations help me immensely. Thank you to all my listeners spreading the word. I'm so grateful. You can find me on TikTok at StarMamaC or on Threads, Blue Sky, Instagram, and Facebook as Characters Without Stories. You can also listen on YouTube at Characters Without Stories or follow the link in the description. My submissions are currently full. I'll announce on the podcast when I'll be accepting more submissions, so keep your ears open. Thanks for listening and may all your characters find their stories.