Sarah McCammon on Politics, Media, and Leaving White Evangelicalism

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,606 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this 3 00:00:06,606 --> 00:00:08,446 is. A podcast for those who are different. 4 00:00:08,446 --> 00:00:11,754 And want to make a difference. This 5 00:00:11,754 --> 00:00:14,526 podcast is sponsored by Betterhelp. If you 6 00:00:14,526 --> 00:00:17,710 are a person who really wants to 7 00:00:17,710 --> 00:00:19,498 understand what your strengths are, maybe 8 00:00:19,498 --> 00:00:21,006 you're not going through anything huge in 9 00:00:21,006 --> 00:00:23,246 your life. Therapy is not just for those 10 00:00:23,246 --> 00:00:25,222 who are in crisis, although it's 11 00:00:25,222 --> 00:00:27,830 definitely for that. 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Sarah is 36 00:01:28,886 --> 00:01:31,782 a national political correspondent for NPR 37 00:01:31,782 --> 00:01:34,714 and co host of the NPR Politics podcast. 38 00:01:34,714 --> 00:01:37,654 Her work focuses on political, social, and 39 00:01:37,654 --> 00:01:40,406 cultural divides in America, including the 40 00:01:40,406 --> 00:01:42,666 intersections of politics and religion, 41 00:01:42,666 --> 00:01:44,522 reproductive rights, and the conservative 42 00:01:44,522 --> 00:01:46,366 movement. She's also a frequent guest host 43 00:01:46,366 --> 00:01:48,398 for NPR news magazines and has appeared on 44 00:01:48,398 --> 00:01:53,434 the BBC, CNN, PBS, and MSNBC. During the 45 00:01:53,434 --> 00:01:56,254 2016 election cycle, Sarah was NPR's lead 46 00:01:56,254 --> 00:01:58,402 political reporter, assigned to the Donald 47 00:01:58,402 --> 00:02:00,942 Trump campaign and previously reported for 48 00:02:00,942 --> 00:02:03,774 NPR member stations in Georgia, Iowa, and 49 00:02:03,774 --> 00:02:05,886 Nebraska. She has a book that's coming out 50 00:02:05,886 --> 00:02:07,738 releasing March 19. I've been able to 51 00:02:07,738 --> 00:02:10,406 receive an advanced copy, so honored to 52 00:02:10,406 --> 00:02:12,230 have been able to receive one. And it is 53 00:02:12,230 --> 00:02:14,406 good. Everybody go preorder it. It's 54 00:02:14,406 --> 00:02:16,566 called the exvangelicals. Loving living 55 00:02:16,566 --> 00:02:18,774 and leaving the white evangelical church. 56 00:02:18,774 --> 00:02:20,966 And she grew up in white evangelicalism in 57 00:02:20,966 --> 00:02:22,794 the midwest in the United States. She 58 00:02:22,794 --> 00:02:24,346 currently lives in Norfolk, Virginia with 59 00:02:24,346 --> 00:02:26,646 her husband and two children. She 60 00:02:26,646 --> 00:02:28,502 substacks at off the air. Please go 61 00:02:28,502 --> 00:02:29,818 subscribe and you can find her on Twitter 62 00:02:29,818 --> 00:02:31,854 at Sarah McCammon we'll link all of these 63 00:02:31,854 --> 00:02:33,694 things. I'm so excited to welcome to the 64 00:02:33,694 --> 00:02:42,734 show today, Sarah McCammon. Hi, Sarah. 65 00:02:42,734 --> 00:02:43,994 Welcome to the World of Difference 66 00:02:43,994 --> 00:02:46,234 podcast. Today you get to be the one being 67 00:02:46,234 --> 00:02:47,354 interviewed. I know that's a change of 68 00:02:47,354 --> 00:02:48,826 pace for you a little bit, but you have 69 00:02:48,826 --> 00:02:50,334 written a book, so get used to it, I 70 00:02:50,334 --> 00:02:52,046 guess. But thanks for showing up today to. 71 00:02:52,046 --> 00:02:54,394 Have this conversation, Sarah. Yeah, my 72 00:02:54,394 --> 00:02:55,766 pleasure. You're right. Usually I get to 73 00:02:55,766 --> 00:02:58,998 ask the questions, so this is a reversal 74 00:02:58,998 --> 00:03:01,426 for me. But I'm excited to be here. Well, 75 00:03:01,426 --> 00:03:03,926 I'm excited to have you and just so great 76 00:03:03,926 --> 00:03:06,102 to get an advanced reader's copy of this 77 00:03:06,102 --> 00:03:08,502 book. It's been incredible. You're 78 00:03:08,502 --> 00:03:10,646 obviously a great writer, but you also 79 00:03:10,646 --> 00:03:13,066 have an experience. And I always find that 80 00:03:13,066 --> 00:03:14,826 when people are researching something, if 81 00:03:14,826 --> 00:03:16,122 they have a narrative and their own 82 00:03:16,122 --> 00:03:18,150 personal experience, it just gives a more 83 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:21,034 rich read to a book like that. I think 84 00:03:21,034 --> 00:03:22,378 about how, like Beth Allison Barr when I 85 00:03:22,378 --> 00:03:23,994 had her on the podcast, she's writing 86 00:03:23,994 --> 00:03:25,550 about history, but she writes her own 87 00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:27,326 personal narrative into it. And I think 88 00:03:27,326 --> 00:03:29,246 that it makes her a compelling read. And 89 00:03:29,246 --> 00:03:32,046 this one certainly did. I think. I tweeted 90 00:03:32,046 --> 00:03:35,438 the other day, I'm not a big crier, more 91 00:03:35,438 --> 00:03:37,486 like a left brain person, but I was 92 00:03:37,486 --> 00:03:39,346 literally like crying in the introduction. 93 00:03:39,346 --> 00:03:41,266 Just, there's the way that you brought 94 00:03:41,266 --> 00:03:43,778 just a real depth and beauty into a very 95 00:03:43,778 --> 00:03:45,266 difficult situation you're describing 96 00:03:45,266 --> 00:03:47,314 there that just really touched me. And so 97 00:03:47,314 --> 00:03:49,062 looking forward to this conversation 98 00:03:49,062 --> 00:03:51,494 today. Sarah, thanks once again for being 99 00:03:51,494 --> 00:03:53,414 here. Yeah, well, thank you so much for 100 00:03:53,414 --> 00:03:56,790 saying mean. It means a lot. This book is 101 00:03:56,790 --> 00:03:59,986 obviously very personal, as well know, 102 00:03:59,986 --> 00:04:01,718 researched and reported, but I did bring a 103 00:04:01,718 --> 00:04:03,386 lot of myself to it, and that's exciting, 104 00:04:03,386 --> 00:04:05,658 but also a little scary. So I hoped that 105 00:04:05,658 --> 00:04:07,034 when I wrote it, it would resonate for 106 00:04:07,034 --> 00:04:08,854 people and it would mean something. And 107 00:04:08,854 --> 00:04:11,174 I'm starting to hear that as these review 108 00:04:11,174 --> 00:04:13,614 copies go out. And so thank you for that. 109 00:04:13,614 --> 00:04:17,006 Of course, it is very vulnerable to write 110 00:04:17,006 --> 00:04:18,174 about your experience. I mean, you're 111 00:04:18,174 --> 00:04:20,606 getting into details of your family and 112 00:04:20,606 --> 00:04:23,466 things that are hard, and I think, yeah, 113 00:04:23,466 --> 00:04:25,086 I'd love for you just to describe, because 114 00:04:25,086 --> 00:04:26,706 our podcast is people all around the 115 00:04:26,706 --> 00:04:28,674 world. We have about 85 countries, people 116 00:04:28,674 --> 00:04:31,534 that listen, obviously people that speak 117 00:04:31,534 --> 00:04:32,814 English, but some people are second 118 00:04:32,814 --> 00:04:34,546 language english speakers, and people of 119 00:04:34,546 --> 00:04:36,466 all different religious backgrounds 120 00:04:36,466 --> 00:04:38,142 listen. But there is something very 121 00:04:38,142 --> 00:04:40,082 specific and very particular about being 122 00:04:40,082 --> 00:04:42,086 raised white evangelical in the midwest. 123 00:04:42,086 --> 00:04:44,834 So you were raised in this culture, the 124 00:04:44,834 --> 00:04:46,646 subculture. You describe it in the book as 125 00:04:46,646 --> 00:04:49,574 an insular and immense. And at its peak in 126 00:04:49,574 --> 00:04:51,814 1993, some about 30% of Americans really 127 00:04:51,814 --> 00:04:53,994 identified as evangelicals and then you 128 00:04:53,994 --> 00:04:55,546 mentioned you're a twelve year old showing 129 00:04:55,546 --> 00:04:58,598 up to youth group in 1993, and you shyly 130 00:04:58,598 --> 00:05:00,234 showed up to these meetings believing the 131 00:05:00,234 --> 00:05:02,138 world was a dangerous place that needed 132 00:05:02,138 --> 00:05:05,194 saving and you needed saving from. So 133 00:05:05,194 --> 00:05:06,494 describe a little bit about this 134 00:05:06,494 --> 00:05:07,818 experience for those who haven't really 135 00:05:07,818 --> 00:05:09,146 walked in your shoes and don't know what 136 00:05:09,146 --> 00:05:14,266 it's like. Yeah. So I grew up not exactly 137 00:05:14,266 --> 00:05:15,906 smack in the middle of the country, but 138 00:05:15,906 --> 00:05:17,762 pretty much in the middle of the United 139 00:05:17,762 --> 00:05:21,506 States, in Kansas City, Missouri. And it 140 00:05:21,506 --> 00:05:23,886 was only later that I realized that I was 141 00:05:23,886 --> 00:05:26,574 growing up in a really, like you said, 142 00:05:26,574 --> 00:05:29,922 massive subculture. Depending on which 143 00:05:29,922 --> 00:05:31,926 numbers you look at, it is something like 144 00:05:31,926 --> 00:05:34,194 a third of the country or a little less 145 00:05:34,194 --> 00:05:35,878 identified as evangelical at that time. If 146 00:05:35,878 --> 00:05:37,398 you talk about white evangelicalism, it's 147 00:05:37,398 --> 00:05:39,290 a little bit lower, maybe like one in 148 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:43,462 four. But by a lot of measures, it was the 149 00:05:43,462 --> 00:05:45,434 biggest religious movement in the country. 150 00:05:45,434 --> 00:05:49,462 And yet, especially for families like 151 00:05:49,462 --> 00:05:52,506 mine, that were all in. We were all in. We 152 00:05:52,506 --> 00:05:55,194 went to christian school, we went to 153 00:05:55,194 --> 00:05:56,894 church every Sunday. Some people went more 154 00:05:56,894 --> 00:05:58,718 often than that. At times in my childhood 155 00:05:58,718 --> 00:06:01,006 we went on Wednesdays or I went to events 156 00:06:01,006 --> 00:06:04,414 on Wednesdays. We had christian books, 157 00:06:04,414 --> 00:06:06,626 christian movies, christian magazines, all 158 00:06:06,626 --> 00:06:09,422 from an evangelical point of view. So a 159 00:06:09,422 --> 00:06:11,826 theologically conservative protestant 160 00:06:11,826 --> 00:06:14,478 point of view. The world that was 161 00:06:14,478 --> 00:06:17,126 presented to me as a little girl was one 162 00:06:17,126 --> 00:06:21,106 where everybody was born into the world, a 163 00:06:21,106 --> 00:06:25,426 sinner and was going to hell. And this was 164 00:06:25,426 --> 00:06:27,538 tied to the idea, I guess, in some 165 00:06:27,538 --> 00:06:29,526 traditions of original sin, Adam and Eve 166 00:06:29,526 --> 00:06:32,586 and the Garden of Eden. But the idea was 167 00:06:32,586 --> 00:06:34,294 that literally, unless you believed in 168 00:06:34,294 --> 00:06:35,942 Jesus and believed the right things about 169 00:06:35,942 --> 00:06:38,726 Jesus and followed Jesus, you were not 170 00:06:38,726 --> 00:06:40,838 saved. And we had to make sure we were 171 00:06:40,838 --> 00:06:42,974 saved, and we had to make sure that the 172 00:06:42,974 --> 00:06:45,834 world was saved. And so that meant 173 00:06:45,834 --> 00:06:47,854 witnessing was the term we used. Sharing 174 00:06:47,854 --> 00:06:51,470 the gospel, sharing our faith with our 175 00:06:51,470 --> 00:06:53,386 friends, with our family, with our 176 00:06:53,386 --> 00:06:55,326 neighbors. It might mean in youth group, 177 00:06:55,326 --> 00:06:57,474 in high school, middle school, there was a 178 00:06:57,474 --> 00:06:59,330 time I went out street witnessing, we 179 00:06:59,330 --> 00:07:01,314 called know, passing out little tracks to 180 00:07:01,314 --> 00:07:03,586 tell people about our beliefs about Jesus 181 00:07:03,586 --> 00:07:04,866 and tell them that they needed to believe 182 00:07:04,866 --> 00:07:07,454 in him and pray a prayer and ask God to 183 00:07:07,454 --> 00:07:09,186 forgive them so that they could go to 184 00:07:09,186 --> 00:07:11,542 heaven too. We funded missionary work 185 00:07:11,542 --> 00:07:13,894 around the world. And the thing that was 186 00:07:13,894 --> 00:07:15,926 really central in my particular upbringing 187 00:07:15,926 --> 00:07:18,554 and I think has become a really powerful 188 00:07:18,554 --> 00:07:20,694 part of this culture in the US, is the 189 00:07:20,694 --> 00:07:22,474 political project that became aligned with 190 00:07:22,474 --> 00:07:25,994 white evangelicalism. My parents took me 191 00:07:25,994 --> 00:07:30,106 to anti abortion marches. They volunteered 192 00:07:30,106 --> 00:07:32,666 for republican, usually Christians who 193 00:07:32,666 --> 00:07:35,834 were running for Congress and for other 194 00:07:35,834 --> 00:07:37,534 offices. And it was all intertwined for 195 00:07:37,534 --> 00:07:39,326 us. It was all connected to this vision of 196 00:07:39,326 --> 00:07:42,378 the world where the world was fallen and 197 00:07:42,378 --> 00:07:44,402 broken and we needed to save it, or we 198 00:07:44,402 --> 00:07:47,806 needed to not personally save it, but 199 00:07:47,806 --> 00:07:50,258 introduce people to the truth so that they 200 00:07:50,258 --> 00:07:53,714 could be saved. That's what I was taught. 201 00:07:53,714 --> 00:07:57,800 And that created sort of a bubble around 202 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,174 me. I had very little exposure to, well, 203 00:08:01,174 --> 00:08:03,394 very sort of controlled exposure to non 204 00:08:03,394 --> 00:08:05,094 christian movies and music and things like 205 00:08:05,094 --> 00:08:07,714 that. And some kids who grew up 206 00:08:07,714 --> 00:08:10,034 evangelical or fundamentalist, even more 207 00:08:10,034 --> 00:08:11,834 conservative kind of version of this have 208 00:08:11,834 --> 00:08:15,094 no exposure or virtually none. There is a 209 00:08:15,094 --> 00:08:17,066 spectrum, but for me, it was very minimal. 210 00:08:17,066 --> 00:08:19,180 And this is kind of the only world that I 211 00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:22,542 knew except for one or two people in my 212 00:08:22,542 --> 00:08:24,142 life, including some extended family 213 00:08:24,142 --> 00:08:26,110 members who did not believe what we 214 00:08:26,110 --> 00:08:29,646 believed. Yeah, I remember reading about 215 00:08:29,646 --> 00:08:31,598 your grandpa and the book and just there's 216 00:08:31,598 --> 00:08:34,160 so many heartbreaking parts of your 217 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,386 family, and I know that people reading it 218 00:08:36,386 --> 00:08:38,034 are going to relate because it's not like 219 00:08:38,034 --> 00:08:40,706 your situation is rare in a way, there are 220 00:08:40,706 --> 00:08:43,474 others who grew up exactly like this. And 221 00:08:43,474 --> 00:08:46,706 then you mentioned the intertwining of 222 00:08:46,706 --> 00:08:50,598 politics with your faith community and how 223 00:08:50,598 --> 00:08:53,026 that happened for you growing up. So that 224 00:08:53,026 --> 00:08:56,034 led eventually to you becoming NPR's lead 225 00:08:56,034 --> 00:08:58,422 reporter in 2016, assigned to the Donald 226 00:08:58,422 --> 00:09:01,386 Trump campaign, which meant you really 227 00:09:01,386 --> 00:09:03,178 were a target of Trump's followers, who 228 00:09:03,178 --> 00:09:04,902 would be whipped up into this sort of 229 00:09:04,902 --> 00:09:08,026 excited frenzy to point at you. I'm using 230 00:09:08,026 --> 00:09:10,614 air quotes, disgusting reporters who were, 231 00:09:10,614 --> 00:09:13,686 quote, the worst people and laugh. And 232 00:09:13,686 --> 00:09:16,154 basically you write about this. His shtick 233 00:09:16,154 --> 00:09:17,758 resulted in what sounds to me like a lot 234 00:09:17,758 --> 00:09:19,550 of trauma responses that must have been 235 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:22,142 happening for you and other reporters 236 00:09:22,142 --> 00:09:24,686 coming up. But as you were raised in sort 237 00:09:24,686 --> 00:09:27,278 of this evangelical purity culture, that 238 00:09:27,278 --> 00:09:28,786 didn't really give you the skills to trust 239 00:09:28,786 --> 00:09:31,426 your body necessarily. How, as a reporter, 240 00:09:31,426 --> 00:09:33,294 did this affect you physically, 241 00:09:33,294 --> 00:09:34,994 emotionally, and spiritually? To work in 242 00:09:34,994 --> 00:09:37,094 such a really traumatic work environment 243 00:09:37,094 --> 00:09:40,246 during that time? It was stressful, and I 244 00:09:40,246 --> 00:09:41,986 think it was stressful or would be 245 00:09:41,986 --> 00:09:43,606 stressful for almost anybody, regardless 246 00:09:43,606 --> 00:09:47,926 of their personal background. I will say I 247 00:09:47,926 --> 00:09:49,958 have colleagues who go to war zones, and 248 00:09:49,958 --> 00:09:52,134 it's nothing on that level, but it's 249 00:09:52,134 --> 00:09:53,418 unexpected in an environment like this. At 250 00:09:53,418 --> 00:09:56,154 a presidential campaign rally, although it 251 00:09:56,154 --> 00:10:00,406 came to be expected for me, though, I had 252 00:10:00,406 --> 00:10:03,158 largely distanced myself from my 253 00:10:03,158 --> 00:10:05,086 evangelical upbringing by that point. I 254 00:10:05,086 --> 00:10:07,626 was in my early mid thirty s at the 255 00:10:07,626 --> 00:10:09,358 beginning of the campaign. It wasn't like 256 00:10:09,358 --> 00:10:11,754 I wasn't interested in religion or 257 00:10:11,754 --> 00:10:12,798 Christianity. We can talk more about that 258 00:10:12,798 --> 00:10:15,682 at some point if you want, but I didn't 259 00:10:15,682 --> 00:10:17,346 consider myself an evangelical. I wouldn't 260 00:10:17,346 --> 00:10:21,314 have used that label. And I tried to sort 261 00:10:21,314 --> 00:10:24,434 of separate that childhood experience from 262 00:10:24,434 --> 00:10:27,682 my work. I went into journalism because I 263 00:10:27,682 --> 00:10:29,754 really had pretty traditional views of 264 00:10:29,754 --> 00:10:31,714 journalism. I didn't want to be an 265 00:10:31,714 --> 00:10:33,666 advocate. I didn't want to push a certain 266 00:10:33,666 --> 00:10:36,022 agenda. I truly was drawn to journalism 267 00:10:36,022 --> 00:10:38,306 because it felt like a place where I could 268 00:10:38,306 --> 00:10:42,066 freely ask questions and not have to have 269 00:10:42,066 --> 00:10:43,590 predetermined answers, like I so often 270 00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:45,546 felt as a child I was supposed to have. 271 00:10:45,546 --> 00:10:47,414 And that was really exciting for me and 272 00:10:47,414 --> 00:10:49,338 exhilarating. And so journalism felt like 273 00:10:49,338 --> 00:10:52,598 a space to do that. But fast forward to, 274 00:10:52,598 --> 00:10:54,226 like I said, my early mid thirty s. Two 275 00:10:54,226 --> 00:10:55,578 thousand and fifteen, two thousand and 276 00:10:55,578 --> 00:10:57,722 sixteen. I'm assigned to cover the 277 00:10:57,722 --> 00:11:01,674 republican primary. I wind up kind of 278 00:11:01,674 --> 00:11:03,962 unexpectedly as things go for most people 279 00:11:03,962 --> 00:11:05,934 covering Donald Trump. No one really saw 280 00:11:05,934 --> 00:11:11,618 that coming until it was there. And I was 281 00:11:11,618 --> 00:11:13,362 sort of face to face again with a lot of 282 00:11:13,362 --> 00:11:15,762 these themes. And even some of the same 283 00:11:15,762 --> 00:11:17,730 people and political leaders that had 284 00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:19,506 know, kitchen table names in my household 285 00:11:19,506 --> 00:11:21,862 were suddenly endorsing Donald Trump. And 286 00:11:21,862 --> 00:11:23,078 everyone was trying to make sense of that. 287 00:11:23,078 --> 00:11:24,406 And so it was this very strange position 288 00:11:24,406 --> 00:11:26,440 to be in as a reporter who had tried to 289 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,366 kind know, be professional, be neutral, 290 00:11:29,366 --> 00:11:31,206 and yet I knew so much about this world. 291 00:11:31,206 --> 00:11:34,906 And so gradually that I think I came to 292 00:11:34,906 --> 00:11:36,346 see it as actually an advantage, something 293 00:11:36,346 --> 00:11:38,906 that helped me to kind of understand what 294 00:11:38,906 --> 00:11:41,198 I was looking at and ask, I hope, some of 295 00:11:41,198 --> 00:11:43,134 the right questions and maybe help explain 296 00:11:43,134 --> 00:11:46,426 this phenomenon to people who had less 297 00:11:46,426 --> 00:11:48,846 familiarity with evangelicalism. But to 298 00:11:48,846 --> 00:11:52,446 get to your question about trauma, I think 299 00:11:52,446 --> 00:11:53,838 the experience of, like I said, of being 300 00:11:53,838 --> 00:11:56,146 sort of hemmed in by an angry crowd would 301 00:11:56,146 --> 00:11:58,514 be stressful for anybody. For me, there 302 00:11:58,514 --> 00:12:01,714 was this extra element of I would be, 303 00:12:01,714 --> 00:12:04,082 before these rallies, off to the side, 304 00:12:04,082 --> 00:12:06,066 talking to people in line or in the back 305 00:12:06,066 --> 00:12:09,142 of these stadiums and arenas. And 306 00:12:09,142 --> 00:12:10,898 sometimes people would have religious 307 00:12:10,898 --> 00:12:12,530 symbols or they would bring up their 308 00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:15,186 faith. And in general, regardless of 309 00:12:15,186 --> 00:12:16,818 religion, they reminded me of the people I 310 00:12:16,818 --> 00:12:20,450 grew up around in the midwest. And it was 311 00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:22,554 a little startling sometimes to see people 312 00:12:22,554 --> 00:12:24,726 go from completely normal and 313 00:12:24,726 --> 00:12:26,714 conversational to the moment that Trump 314 00:12:26,714 --> 00:12:28,426 took the stage and whipped up the frenzy. 315 00:12:28,426 --> 00:12:31,566 They would get so angry. And a lot of that 316 00:12:31,566 --> 00:12:34,622 was directed at us, and it wasn't 317 00:12:34,622 --> 00:12:38,014 personal. We just become symbols. Know, I 318 00:12:38,014 --> 00:12:40,110 guess, of the establishment of the elite, 319 00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:42,880 of whatever it was that people were angry 320 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,300 at. And Trump was happy to use us as that. 321 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:49,554 So one of the things I write about in the 322 00:12:49,554 --> 00:12:51,506 book, though, one of the kind of shocking 323 00:12:51,506 --> 00:12:54,418 for me, surprising experiences I had was 324 00:12:54,418 --> 00:12:58,146 the weekend before the election, the heat 325 00:12:58,146 --> 00:12:59,714 had really kind of turned up. We were 326 00:12:59,714 --> 00:13:01,586 going to the press corps that was 327 00:13:01,586 --> 00:13:03,206 following Trump was going to all of these 328 00:13:03,206 --> 00:13:05,174 kind of back to back rallies like they 329 00:13:05,174 --> 00:13:07,382 have right before an election. The crowds 330 00:13:07,382 --> 00:13:10,154 were kind of especially angry and intense, 331 00:13:10,154 --> 00:13:11,606 and I think excited, too, because the 332 00:13:11,606 --> 00:13:15,014 election was about to come and I was just 333 00:13:15,014 --> 00:13:17,482 exhausted. I had very little been, you 334 00:13:17,482 --> 00:13:20,646 know, hopping on planes and buses. And 335 00:13:20,646 --> 00:13:22,046 it's kind of that point in the campaign 336 00:13:22,046 --> 00:13:25,040 when you're just over it. And I just found 337 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,302 myself kind of praying and also thinking 338 00:13:28,302 --> 00:13:31,434 as people screamed at us about really what 339 00:13:31,434 --> 00:13:33,838 Jesus taught about loving your enemies. 340 00:13:33,838 --> 00:13:36,446 And I'm not somebody that is super 341 00:13:36,446 --> 00:13:37,954 spiritual or goes to services a lot or 342 00:13:37,954 --> 00:13:40,866 anything like that, but it really felt 343 00:13:40,866 --> 00:13:43,940 like this strange, almost ironic moment 344 00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:46,018 where it felt like a very spiritual moment 345 00:13:46,018 --> 00:13:48,142 for me. And maybe that's what faith is 346 00:13:48,142 --> 00:13:50,454 ultimately about. It's not always 347 00:13:50,454 --> 00:13:51,846 something that you choose or that you work 348 00:13:51,846 --> 00:13:53,794 up. It's just something that is sort of a 349 00:13:53,794 --> 00:13:56,886 gift. Right. And that was the form it took 350 00:13:56,886 --> 00:13:59,254 for me, and that is relatively unusual for 351 00:13:59,254 --> 00:14:01,162 me, but it gave me strength and it made me 352 00:14:01,162 --> 00:14:04,074 feel like almost a form of compassion. 353 00:14:04,074 --> 00:14:07,926 Like, I don't know why these people are so 354 00:14:07,926 --> 00:14:09,338 angry at me. I don't think it's about me. 355 00:14:09,338 --> 00:14:11,066 I think it's about something else that I 356 00:14:11,066 --> 00:14:15,146 can't control. But it was sort of a 357 00:14:15,146 --> 00:14:16,606 spiritual moment to figure out how to find 358 00:14:16,606 --> 00:14:19,920 that inner strength and just move through 359 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,522 it. Yeah, that's the part where I teared, 360 00:14:25,522 --> 00:14:27,538 really. I was sitting in a coffee shop 361 00:14:27,538 --> 00:14:31,282 here in Silicon Valley reading that. And, 362 00:14:31,282 --> 00:14:33,774 yeah, that was just a really beautiful, 363 00:14:33,774 --> 00:14:37,646 deeply spiritual moment, I think, that 364 00:14:37,646 --> 00:14:39,654 know, in evangelical Christianity, which 365 00:14:39,654 --> 00:14:41,414 also formed me, even though I was in 366 00:14:41,414 --> 00:14:45,910 another overseas being formed by that, 367 00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:47,666 sometimes people expect the biggest 368 00:14:47,666 --> 00:14:49,266 spiritual moments to happen in the four 369 00:14:49,266 --> 00:14:51,386 walls of a church. But you experienced it 370 00:14:51,386 --> 00:14:55,126 in a very real situation. Some of my 371 00:14:55,126 --> 00:14:56,774 favorite christian authors will point 372 00:14:56,774 --> 00:14:59,002 toward those passages, too. Like, the mark 373 00:14:59,002 --> 00:15:01,686 of a Christian is somebody who can truly 374 00:15:01,686 --> 00:15:03,558 spontaneously love their enemies. And 375 00:15:03,558 --> 00:15:05,246 that's not an easy thing to do. And the 376 00:15:05,246 --> 00:15:06,654 fact that you had that experience is 377 00:15:06,654 --> 00:15:10,494 really what kind of brought me to tears. 378 00:15:10,494 --> 00:15:12,222 Thank you. And it wasn't even like I did 379 00:15:12,222 --> 00:15:14,240 anything or made a choice or did something 380 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,290 good. And I'm sure that this is something 381 00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:20,658 that happens to other people who, and I 382 00:15:20,658 --> 00:15:22,226 don't think it's probably unique to, I'm 383 00:15:22,226 --> 00:15:25,106 sure it's not unique to my tradition, and 384 00:15:25,106 --> 00:15:27,880 I want to be careful to say that. Right. 385 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,920 But my own faith these days is very kind 386 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,326 of mystical, and I don't really know what 387 00:15:36,326 --> 00:15:37,734 to make of something like that. And it's 388 00:15:37,734 --> 00:15:39,734 not normal for me. And I don't want to 389 00:15:39,734 --> 00:15:41,686 sound either like, oh, I felt such 390 00:15:41,686 --> 00:15:43,482 compassion and empathy. It was almost just 391 00:15:43,482 --> 00:15:45,402 like something outside of me was like, 392 00:15:45,402 --> 00:15:47,894 getting me through that. And I was 393 00:15:47,894 --> 00:15:50,874 grateful for that moment, whatever it is. 394 00:15:50,874 --> 00:15:52,986 Absolutely. No, I think that hearing you 395 00:15:52,986 --> 00:15:54,794 say that is exactly how I read it in the 396 00:15:54,794 --> 00:15:56,762 book. So I think you portrayed yourself 397 00:15:56,762 --> 00:15:57,966 accurately now that I hear you say it, 398 00:15:57,966 --> 00:15:59,486 because that's kind of what I came away 399 00:15:59,486 --> 00:16:01,902 with for you and that situation. And I 400 00:16:01,902 --> 00:16:03,438 think it's a really beautiful moment. And 401 00:16:03,438 --> 00:16:04,866 I do hope people buy your book and read 402 00:16:04,866 --> 00:16:06,770 it, because even just for the 403 00:16:06,770 --> 00:16:10,594 introduction, it's a good read. So moving 404 00:16:10,594 --> 00:16:14,626 on to some really more questions that I 405 00:16:14,626 --> 00:16:16,082 think are trying to bring all this 406 00:16:16,082 --> 00:16:17,326 together because you have a perspective 407 00:16:17,326 --> 00:16:18,818 that's really important. Not only were you 408 00:16:18,818 --> 00:16:20,866 formed in this community, you got to see 409 00:16:20,866 --> 00:16:22,322 firsthand what's happening in these 410 00:16:22,322 --> 00:16:23,974 rallies where now we're in a situation 411 00:16:23,974 --> 00:16:26,646 where christian nationalism is just very 412 00:16:26,646 --> 00:16:29,846 out in the open, and it's very much 413 00:16:29,846 --> 00:16:31,990 happening in the churches. We're seeing 414 00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:34,520 things very openly that weren't so open 415 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,838 before. But as I think about some of the 416 00:16:36,838 --> 00:16:38,406 abuse allegations that are continuing to 417 00:16:38,406 --> 00:16:41,046 roll out, about some of these pastors, 418 00:16:41,046 --> 00:16:43,558 evangelical pastors that are predators, 419 00:16:43,558 --> 00:16:45,046 I'm thinking of the Southern Baptist 420 00:16:45,046 --> 00:16:47,022 convention, but not exclusively them. In 421 00:16:47,022 --> 00:16:49,406 your hometown, ihop Casey has a lot going 422 00:16:49,406 --> 00:16:51,546 on right now. But as we think about these 423 00:16:51,546 --> 00:16:53,966 evangelical church leaders who have these 424 00:16:53,966 --> 00:16:56,802 abuse allegations coming out, how do you 425 00:16:56,802 --> 00:16:59,566 think some of the Trump narrative, that 426 00:16:59,566 --> 00:17:01,250 reporters are, quote, unquote, the worst 427 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:04,050 people, has formed hearts and minds of 428 00:17:04,050 --> 00:17:06,114 evangelicals in the pews as they hear 429 00:17:06,114 --> 00:17:08,066 about these christian whistleblowers of 430 00:17:08,066 --> 00:17:10,166 spiritual or sexual abuse that are talking 431 00:17:10,166 --> 00:17:13,206 to reporters. How are they connected? 432 00:17:13,206 --> 00:17:15,382 Well, I don't think it helps, but I also 433 00:17:15,382 --> 00:17:18,874 think it didn't start with Trump. I grew 434 00:17:18,874 --> 00:17:22,234 up being warned about the media as if it 435 00:17:22,234 --> 00:17:24,774 were all one conglomerate with a unified 436 00:17:24,774 --> 00:17:27,722 brain or something. And in reality, the 437 00:17:27,722 --> 00:17:31,562 media is so many different things. That's 438 00:17:31,562 --> 00:17:35,274 another conversation. I grew up being 439 00:17:35,274 --> 00:17:37,770 actively steered toward sort of approved 440 00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:41,642 publications, whether it was Fox News or 441 00:17:41,642 --> 00:17:43,882 publications with a specifically christian 442 00:17:43,882 --> 00:17:46,546 conservative worldview. So there's a long 443 00:17:46,546 --> 00:17:49,490 history there, and there's a long history 444 00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:51,426 of politicians attacking the press. Trump 445 00:17:51,426 --> 00:17:53,746 was not the first, but I do think it was 446 00:17:53,746 --> 00:17:56,158 one of his key strategies, and he upped 447 00:17:56,158 --> 00:17:59,798 the ante in a big way. And that has had 448 00:17:59,798 --> 00:18:03,298 the effect, all of that taken together, of 449 00:18:03,298 --> 00:18:06,054 delegitimizing the press to a large degree 450 00:18:06,054 --> 00:18:08,598 in people's minds. And so I wonder. I 451 00:18:08,598 --> 00:18:09,846 think it's a good question. You ask what 452 00:18:09,846 --> 00:18:12,406 it means for these kinds of reports about 453 00:18:12,406 --> 00:18:14,474 sex abuse in churches. How many people are 454 00:18:14,474 --> 00:18:17,914 less likely to take them seriously? I can 455 00:18:17,914 --> 00:18:19,866 only speculate, but I will say that I 456 00:18:19,866 --> 00:18:23,950 think it's why sort of criticisms from 457 00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:25,886 inside the house are especially important 458 00:18:25,886 --> 00:18:28,574 right now. I think of World magazine a few 459 00:18:28,574 --> 00:18:30,314 years ago did some really excellent 460 00:18:30,314 --> 00:18:33,326 reporting on the late Ravi Zacharias and 461 00:18:33,326 --> 00:18:36,802 sexual abuse allegations from some of the 462 00:18:36,802 --> 00:18:39,780 women that had worked, I think, around 463 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,006 him. More recently, Nancy French, the 464 00:18:43,006 --> 00:18:44,926 writer Nancy French has done some 465 00:18:44,926 --> 00:18:47,346 reporting on abuse claims at places like 466 00:18:47,346 --> 00:18:50,038 Canacook camp. And I think that's really 467 00:18:50,038 --> 00:18:53,206 important because understandably, we live 468 00:18:53,206 --> 00:18:55,414 in a big, messy world, and people are not 469 00:18:55,414 --> 00:18:58,006 always sure who they can trust. And I wish 470 00:18:58,006 --> 00:18:59,878 they would trust me. And I can tell you 471 00:18:59,878 --> 00:19:01,818 that I do my best to be honest and fair, 472 00:19:01,818 --> 00:19:04,646 but if they don't, they might be more 473 00:19:04,646 --> 00:19:06,858 likely to listen to somebody inside the 474 00:19:06,858 --> 00:19:08,986 house and inside the family critique than 475 00:19:08,986 --> 00:19:10,886 they would someone like me working for a 476 00:19:10,886 --> 00:19:13,066 mainstream media organization. And so I'm 477 00:19:13,066 --> 00:19:14,794 really grateful to see some of those 478 00:19:14,794 --> 00:19:16,606 publications and journalists doing that 479 00:19:16,606 --> 00:19:19,982 kind of work. I think it's critical I do, 480 00:19:19,982 --> 00:19:21,486 too. And thank you for the work that you 481 00:19:21,486 --> 00:19:23,634 do and all the journalists. I have said 482 00:19:23,634 --> 00:19:27,074 many times over the last year. Plus, I 483 00:19:27,074 --> 00:19:30,290 feel like in what's happening in 484 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:32,434 evangelicalism, I become really grateful 485 00:19:32,434 --> 00:19:34,754 for reporters, investigative reporters and 486 00:19:34,754 --> 00:19:37,454 the lawyers like Boschevijan. I'm so 487 00:19:37,454 --> 00:19:38,886 grateful for the department of justice 488 00:19:38,886 --> 00:19:41,286 because I feel like sometimes inside, it's 489 00:19:41,286 --> 00:19:44,166 hard to get the information, and it has to 490 00:19:44,166 --> 00:19:46,886 be from the outside on a certain level. So 491 00:19:46,886 --> 00:19:48,694 I'm really grateful for people shining a 492 00:19:48,694 --> 00:19:50,386 light, and it's hard work. And I'm so 493 00:19:50,386 --> 00:19:52,140 grateful for you and others who do that 494 00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:55,066 work. I think about in the book, you talk 495 00:19:55,066 --> 00:19:57,146 about, like, as a child, you're the oldest 496 00:19:57,146 --> 00:19:59,126 of four. You have these blonde, well 497 00:19:59,126 --> 00:20:01,238 behaved children, these three little girls 498 00:20:01,238 --> 00:20:04,046 spaced three years apart, and a brother 499 00:20:04,046 --> 00:20:07,166 who was a surprise to you. What a brother. 500 00:20:07,166 --> 00:20:10,526 And then you say, you know, at that stage 501 00:20:10,526 --> 00:20:12,602 of your life, you knew that your neat 502 00:20:12,602 --> 00:20:14,142 appearance, your obedient behavior in 503 00:20:14,142 --> 00:20:16,394 public was one small way you could be a 504 00:20:16,394 --> 00:20:18,450 witness for Jesus, displaying what a 505 00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:21,070 family could be and should be know. A 506 00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:23,294 father, a mother, four obedient children 507 00:20:23,294 --> 00:20:25,490 fresh from the church, eating apple pie 508 00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:27,750 together. And then you say, everywhere we 509 00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:29,446 went, everything we did, we were told we 510 00:20:29,446 --> 00:20:32,214 must be ambassadors for Christ. How would 511 00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:34,962 you describe the way this intense sort of 512 00:20:34,962 --> 00:20:37,346 pressure for perfectionism and behavior 513 00:20:37,346 --> 00:20:39,142 management of children was sort of 514 00:20:39,142 --> 00:20:41,126 intertwined with your evangelical 515 00:20:41,126 --> 00:20:43,754 spiritual formation at the same time? 516 00:20:43,754 --> 00:20:45,926 Well, because we believed that we had the 517 00:20:45,926 --> 00:20:49,270 truth and we believed that the world was 518 00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:52,190 dying literally without it. It was so 519 00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:54,350 important that we convey that to other 520 00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:57,598 people, starting with the people we had 521 00:20:57,598 --> 00:20:59,726 contact with. And we didn't have contact 522 00:20:59,726 --> 00:21:03,226 with a whole lot of non Christians. As 523 00:21:03,226 --> 00:21:04,802 I've described, my whole world was pretty 524 00:21:04,802 --> 00:21:07,662 much church and christian school and 525 00:21:07,662 --> 00:21:10,946 evangelical circles. But on the occasions 526 00:21:10,946 --> 00:21:14,210 that we did, it was important to shine a 527 00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:16,350 light. There's this verse in the New 528 00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:18,674 Testament, let your light so shine before 529 00:21:18,674 --> 00:21:21,074 men that they will see your good deeds and 530 00:21:21,074 --> 00:21:23,766 glorify your father in heaven. And that 531 00:21:23,766 --> 00:21:25,606 was one that was quoted to us, and I'm 532 00:21:25,606 --> 00:21:27,942 sure in Sunday school and church and 533 00:21:27,942 --> 00:21:29,498 probably christian school, too. And there 534 00:21:29,498 --> 00:21:32,666 was just this idea that you had to exhibit 535 00:21:32,666 --> 00:21:35,994 with your life, the joy that came from 536 00:21:35,994 --> 00:21:39,354 being a Christian, the peace that passes 537 00:21:39,354 --> 00:21:41,886 all understanding, to quote the Bible as 538 00:21:41,886 --> 00:21:45,182 well. And the challenge was I didn't 539 00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:47,102 always feel that peace and joy. I mean, I 540 00:21:47,102 --> 00:21:51,246 sure wanted to, and I wanted to share the 541 00:21:51,246 --> 00:21:54,506 good news, and I certainly wanted my 542 00:21:54,506 --> 00:21:55,810 extended family that I've mentioned, 543 00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:59,054 especially my grandpa, to get saved, quote 544 00:21:59,054 --> 00:22:01,134 unquote. And so I felt that pressure, 545 00:22:01,134 --> 00:22:04,926 particularly around them. It felt like a 546 00:22:04,926 --> 00:22:08,646 huge responsibility, and it was about 547 00:22:08,646 --> 00:22:11,766 being on your best behavior, just showing 548 00:22:11,766 --> 00:22:15,894 everyone that we kind of had it figured 549 00:22:15,894 --> 00:22:17,286 out. I mean, that's not how anyone would 550 00:22:17,286 --> 00:22:19,030 have put it, but that's kind of how it 551 00:22:19,030 --> 00:22:24,086 felt. Yeah. It has to be a lot of intense 552 00:22:24,086 --> 00:22:26,166 pressure as a child, and I'm sure 553 00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,282 processing that now as an adult is not 554 00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:29,594 easy. I know many people are in that 555 00:22:29,594 --> 00:22:30,986 space, which is kind of why you've written 556 00:22:30,986 --> 00:22:34,122 this book, for people to help themselves 557 00:22:34,122 --> 00:22:35,518 find themselves in your story. And that's 558 00:22:35,518 --> 00:22:37,966 the thing about story, right. Is we can 559 00:22:37,966 --> 00:22:39,934 see ourselves in other people's stories, 560 00:22:39,934 --> 00:22:41,742 right. There's these few stories in the 561 00:22:41,742 --> 00:22:44,394 world, and when we tell them people, other 562 00:22:44,394 --> 00:22:46,466 humans, can relate to parts of it. And you 563 00:22:46,466 --> 00:22:49,554 have this term exvangelical, which has 564 00:22:49,554 --> 00:22:51,746 been used quite a bit, and I'd love to 565 00:22:51,746 --> 00:22:53,666 know how you define the term. And also 566 00:22:53,666 --> 00:22:56,162 sort of what misconceptions are out there 567 00:22:56,162 --> 00:22:59,474 about this group being often viewed either 568 00:22:59,474 --> 00:23:02,102 exclusively non religious or secular, but 569 00:23:02,102 --> 00:23:04,326 not counting some, that sort of really 570 00:23:04,326 --> 00:23:05,846 help to remain spiritual. What is your 571 00:23:05,846 --> 00:23:08,134 take on all of that? Yeah, well, you're 572 00:23:08,134 --> 00:23:11,190 right. I mean, I think that there are huge 573 00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:12,586 commonalities between people who've in 574 00:23:12,586 --> 00:23:14,746 some way walked this journey. Part of it 575 00:23:14,746 --> 00:23:17,514 is because while everyone's experience is 576 00:23:17,514 --> 00:23:19,706 different and there are varieties of sort 577 00:23:19,706 --> 00:23:22,290 of sub subcultures and different 578 00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:24,190 traditions within the evangelical 579 00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:27,582 tradition. There was this what I call kind 580 00:23:27,582 --> 00:23:29,114 of and what others have called kind of a 581 00:23:29,114 --> 00:23:31,374 parallel universe of sort of this curated 582 00:23:31,374 --> 00:23:35,566 world of evangelical culture and media and 583 00:23:35,566 --> 00:23:37,394 language and thought that so many of us 584 00:23:37,394 --> 00:23:40,738 were exposed to. And so there's a common 585 00:23:40,738 --> 00:23:42,370 experience, and there's a common 586 00:23:42,370 --> 00:23:44,914 experience in stepping away from that 587 00:23:44,914 --> 00:23:47,346 world. There's a sense of, I think, a loss 588 00:23:47,346 --> 00:23:49,906 of community, for sure. There's a lot of 589 00:23:49,906 --> 00:23:52,006 fear and anxiety about getting it wrong 590 00:23:52,006 --> 00:23:53,218 because we were told that was, like, the 591 00:23:53,218 --> 00:23:57,078 worst thing that you could do. And then 592 00:23:57,078 --> 00:23:58,406 there are questions about, well, what am I 593 00:23:58,406 --> 00:24:00,902 now? And who am I now? And so I came 594 00:24:00,902 --> 00:24:03,418 across the term exvangelical as I write in 595 00:24:03,418 --> 00:24:06,138 the book, reporting a story in 2016 about 596 00:24:06,138 --> 00:24:07,766 some of the divisions within the 597 00:24:07,766 --> 00:24:10,182 evangelical movement that had been not 598 00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,246 necessarily created, but certainly 599 00:24:12,246 --> 00:24:15,894 catalyzed and exacerbated by Trumpism. And 600 00:24:15,894 --> 00:24:19,214 I started kind of following that hashtag 601 00:24:19,214 --> 00:24:22,378 on social media, and it was coined 602 00:24:22,378 --> 00:24:24,574 originally by Blake Chastain, who has a 603 00:24:24,574 --> 00:24:27,042 podcast by that name. And I just began to 604 00:24:27,042 --> 00:24:29,006 see a lot of conversations kind of 605 00:24:29,006 --> 00:24:32,574 unfolding around that terminology. Quite 606 00:24:32,574 --> 00:24:34,594 simply, people who were once evangelical, 607 00:24:34,594 --> 00:24:36,674 who no longer feel comfortable with that 608 00:24:36,674 --> 00:24:40,598 label, for whatever reason. And so that's 609 00:24:40,598 --> 00:24:42,118 how I've defined it. And I also talk about 610 00:24:42,118 --> 00:24:44,694 the fact that evangelical is a very sort 611 00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:47,826 of squishy term that sociologists and 612 00:24:47,826 --> 00:24:50,406 pollsters struggle to define. But I think 613 00:24:50,406 --> 00:24:52,954 it's easy to point to a number of things. 614 00:24:52,954 --> 00:24:55,526 And I kind of organized the book 615 00:24:55,526 --> 00:24:57,654 thematically around some of the sort of 616 00:24:57,654 --> 00:25:01,206 tension points with the predominant white 617 00:25:01,206 --> 00:25:02,666 evangelical subcultures that so many of us 618 00:25:02,666 --> 00:25:07,440 grew up in, I guess, the rest of the 619 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,202 world, whether it's the understanding of 620 00:25:12,202 --> 00:25:14,194 science or the lack of acceptance of 621 00:25:14,194 --> 00:25:16,226 things like evolutionary science that so 622 00:25:16,226 --> 00:25:18,226 many of us experienced in our churches and 623 00:25:18,226 --> 00:25:22,462 our textbooks, whether it's that or 624 00:25:22,462 --> 00:25:24,930 understandings about sexuality, purity, 625 00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:28,366 culture, LGBTQ people, there's a whole 626 00:25:28,366 --> 00:25:30,422 variety of sort of tension points that 627 00:25:30,422 --> 00:25:32,306 people kind of identify that made them 628 00:25:32,306 --> 00:25:34,306 struggle with being part of the white 629 00:25:34,306 --> 00:25:35,494 evangelical movement, the people that I 630 00:25:35,494 --> 00:25:38,058 talk to. And so the reasons are all a 631 00:25:38,058 --> 00:25:39,962 little bit individual. But again, the 632 00:25:39,962 --> 00:25:44,298 experience is similar. And I think there 633 00:25:44,298 --> 00:25:47,114 are some misconceptions about what that 634 00:25:47,114 --> 00:25:48,714 means. It doesn't necessarily mean that 635 00:25:48,714 --> 00:25:51,534 people have abandoned religion altogether 636 00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:56,698 or don't care about spirituality. I think 637 00:25:56,698 --> 00:25:58,366 there's a misperception that people leave 638 00:25:58,366 --> 00:25:59,962 their churches because they want to, quote 639 00:25:59,962 --> 00:26:03,214 unquote, sin. And certainly people change 640 00:26:03,214 --> 00:26:05,022 their behavior when they leave their 641 00:26:05,022 --> 00:26:06,606 churches, sometimes because they've 642 00:26:06,606 --> 00:26:08,930 changed their beliefs. But in my own 643 00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:11,186 experience and in talking to many others 644 00:26:11,186 --> 00:26:14,340 for this book, it's much more complex than 645 00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:16,678 that, and it's very painful. I think for a 646 00:26:16,678 --> 00:26:18,066 lot of people, it'd actually be much 647 00:26:18,066 --> 00:26:20,774 easier to stay. This is the harder path, 648 00:26:20,774 --> 00:26:23,874 but it's, for a lot of people, the more 649 00:26:23,874 --> 00:26:27,494 authentic path. Yeah, absolutely. That's 650 00:26:27,494 --> 00:26:30,566 been my experience of so many that I know. 651 00:26:30,566 --> 00:26:32,110 And it feels sort of like the floor has 652 00:26:32,110 --> 00:26:34,346 fallen out from underneath you. Or I've 653 00:26:34,346 --> 00:26:36,458 heard people say, once the clouds parted, 654 00:26:36,458 --> 00:26:37,866 I wish they would have gone back, because 655 00:26:37,866 --> 00:26:39,706 to keep your community would certainly be 656 00:26:39,706 --> 00:26:43,230 an easier route in some ways. And some 657 00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:46,302 people go that route, just sort of live 658 00:26:46,302 --> 00:26:49,006 with the cognitive dissonance and try to 659 00:26:49,006 --> 00:26:51,182 sort of push it to the side, and others 660 00:26:51,182 --> 00:26:54,174 choose to leave. And either way, it's a 661 00:26:54,174 --> 00:26:57,010 hard journey once there's some questions 662 00:26:57,010 --> 00:26:59,346 or people feel like they don't align with 663 00:26:59,346 --> 00:27:01,906 some of the behavioral management that has 664 00:27:01,906 --> 00:27:04,210 been passed on to them in different ways. 665 00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:06,886 But I want to step into this question as 666 00:27:06,886 --> 00:27:10,726 we think about the subculture of that, how 667 00:27:10,726 --> 00:27:12,646 it influenced what we mentioned earlier, 668 00:27:12,646 --> 00:27:14,598 some of the christian nationalism we're 669 00:27:14,598 --> 00:27:16,886 seeing more prominently now and very much 670 00:27:16,886 --> 00:27:18,966 more on display in sort of January 6 and 671 00:27:18,966 --> 00:27:21,226 that type of thing. But I'd love for you 672 00:27:21,226 --> 00:27:23,098 to discuss, I know as a reporter you've 673 00:27:23,098 --> 00:27:24,902 got to stay very descriptive and 674 00:27:24,902 --> 00:27:27,414 analytical, so feel free to stay in that 675 00:27:27,414 --> 00:27:30,134 realm. But would you discuss with us the 676 00:27:30,134 --> 00:27:32,954 broader societal or cultural impact of the 677 00:27:32,954 --> 00:27:35,034 evangelical movement, particularly in the 678 00:27:35,034 --> 00:27:37,114 context of some american politics and 679 00:27:37,114 --> 00:27:39,040 societal issues that you're seeing right 680 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,378 now of the evangelical. Movement or the 681 00:27:42,378 --> 00:27:44,606 exvangelical movement? Sorry? The ex 682 00:27:44,606 --> 00:27:46,754 evangelical movement. Yes. Thank you. 683 00:27:46,754 --> 00:27:48,114 Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to talk about 684 00:27:48,114 --> 00:27:52,478 either one, but I think the evangelical 685 00:27:52,478 --> 00:27:54,180 movement's impact is well established. 686 00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:57,940 Right. The majority of the republican base 687 00:27:57,940 --> 00:28:01,074 and continues to have an, even as white 688 00:28:01,074 --> 00:28:02,486 Christianity shrinks, continues to have 689 00:28:02,486 --> 00:28:05,106 sort of an outsized impact on american 690 00:28:05,106 --> 00:28:07,350 politics. But the exvangelical movement 691 00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:10,918 is, I think, more loosely defined. And I 692 00:28:10,918 --> 00:28:12,266 want to be clear. I didn't write this book 693 00:28:12,266 --> 00:28:14,650 to tell people how to vote or who to 694 00:28:14,650 --> 00:28:17,658 support for any office. That was not my 695 00:28:17,658 --> 00:28:20,274 interest. But I was seeing all of this 696 00:28:20,274 --> 00:28:23,626 conversation around sort of the post 697 00:28:23,626 --> 00:28:26,426 evangelical experience and this term 698 00:28:26,426 --> 00:28:27,994 deconstruction that's become really 699 00:28:27,994 --> 00:28:30,026 popular online the last few years, which 700 00:28:30,026 --> 00:28:32,894 describes this process of rethinking what 701 00:28:32,894 --> 00:28:35,522 you believe and trying to understand it 702 00:28:35,522 --> 00:28:37,214 maybe differently or ask questions you 703 00:28:37,214 --> 00:28:41,666 hadn't asked before. But I think that a 704 00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:43,634 couple of things, I think we don't fully 705 00:28:43,634 --> 00:28:46,338 know what that movement will mean. I think 706 00:28:46,338 --> 00:28:49,122 it's part of a larger shift away from 707 00:28:49,122 --> 00:28:50,486 religion, although that doesn't, as we 708 00:28:50,486 --> 00:28:52,294 just discussed, doesn't necessarily mean 709 00:28:52,294 --> 00:28:55,270 that everybody who leaves an evangelical 710 00:28:55,270 --> 00:28:58,722 church is becoming secular or will stay 711 00:28:58,722 --> 00:29:01,874 secular. But we do know that the category 712 00:29:01,874 --> 00:29:04,054 that sociologists and pollsters call the 713 00:29:04,054 --> 00:29:07,546 nuns N-O-N-E-S O N E S has now become 714 00:29:07,546 --> 00:29:09,834 larger in the US than white evangelicalism 715 00:29:09,834 --> 00:29:13,182 which I think could have tremendous impact 716 00:29:13,182 --> 00:29:14,698 on american politics going a You're 717 00:29:14,698 --> 00:29:17,594 talking about a real erosion of the 718 00:29:17,594 --> 00:29:19,754 republican base and that's growth in 719 00:29:19,754 --> 00:29:22,430 something that's much less defined and 720 00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:25,778 much more liberal and secular And I think 721 00:29:25,778 --> 00:29:28,578 it's a product of a couple of different 722 00:29:28,578 --> 00:29:29,554 trends or historical events that have kind 723 00:29:29,554 --> 00:29:32,114 of happened at the same time One is just 724 00:29:32,114 --> 00:29:35,806 demographic change The country is becoming 725 00:29:35,806 --> 00:29:37,502 less white a less religious as really 726 00:29:37,502 --> 00:29:39,074 whole And that's really hitting 727 00:29:39,074 --> 00:29:41,094 Christianity the hardest because it's the 728 00:29:41,094 --> 00:29:43,414 dominant religion here Social media is can 729 00:29:43,414 --> 00:29:45,762 big factor People can find one another now 730 00:29:45,762 --> 00:29:47,174 online and have a conversation about 731 00:29:47,174 --> 00:29:51,026 anything And I think these hashtags a 732 00:29:51,026 --> 00:29:52,714 emerged out of a shared experience and 733 00:29:52,714 --> 00:29:55,062 about desire to talk about it And then of 734 00:29:55,062 --> 00:29:56,570 course we talked about Trumpism And 735 00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:58,906 Trumpism is just kind of I think the tip 736 00:29:58,906 --> 00:30:03,434 of the iceberg It's a symptom of 737 00:30:03,434 --> 00:30:05,146 politicization long term increasing 738 00:30:05,146 --> 00:30:08,654 politicization of the religious movement 739 00:30:08,654 --> 00:30:11,114 That was evangelicalism I think again how 740 00:30:11,114 --> 00:30:12,686 politically all shakes out politically and 741 00:30:12,686 --> 00:30:15,390 culturally will remain to be seen But I 742 00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:16,514 think churches are paying attention One of 743 00:30:16,514 --> 00:30:19,986 the in I talk about in the book is some 744 00:30:19,986 --> 00:30:22,626 criticism from churches and some prominent 745 00:30:22,626 --> 00:30:25,462 pastors as well as some christian 746 00:30:25,462 --> 00:30:28,294 evangelical thinkers who have tried to 747 00:30:28,294 --> 00:30:31,382 understand this move away from 748 00:30:31,382 --> 00:30:33,526 evangelicalism and Christianity among 749 00:30:33,526 --> 00:30:35,126 especially many younger people And so 750 00:30:35,126 --> 00:30:38,026 it'll also be interesting to see how 751 00:30:38,026 --> 00:30:39,498 churches respond I think some are 752 00:30:39,498 --> 00:30:42,698 responding Some are trying to become less 753 00:30:42,698 --> 00:30:48,026 political or more open to questions and a 754 00:30:48,026 --> 00:30:50,234 diverse range of points of view There's 755 00:30:50,234 --> 00:30:53,206 just been a lot of ink spilled though 756 00:30:53,206 --> 00:30:54,778 about white evangelicalism and christian 757 00:30:54,778 --> 00:30:55,726 nationalism and the politics of the 758 00:30:55,726 --> 00:30:57,386 movement and the history of the movement 759 00:30:57,386 --> 00:30:59,134 And it's all very a and I cite a lot of 760 00:30:59,134 --> 00:31:02,474 those sources in my book But what I really 761 00:31:02,474 --> 00:31:05,186 wanted to do was talk about what people 762 00:31:05,186 --> 00:31:08,066 raised in this world which is have lot of 763 00:31:08,066 --> 00:31:12,034 people have seen and know and the 764 00:31:12,034 --> 00:31:15,086 perspective that we bring to these 765 00:31:15,086 --> 00:31:16,482 conversations because I think it's much 766 00:31:16,482 --> 00:31:19,626 more intimate and sort of granular than 767 00:31:19,626 --> 00:31:20,646 some of these academic conversations a 768 00:31:20,646 --> 00:31:22,582 have happened for a long time So I hope 769 00:31:22,582 --> 00:31:24,294 it's valuable in that regard too That will 770 00:31:24,294 --> 00:31:27,446 just inform some of these conversations No 771 00:31:27,446 --> 00:31:30,182 I think you're right I think absolutely 772 00:31:30,182 --> 00:31:33,098 And I think we'll continue to watch and 773 00:31:33,098 --> 00:31:34,918 see what happens But I think that the 774 00:31:34,918 --> 00:31:36,618 shared experience of people finding these 775 00:31:36,618 --> 00:31:38,246 hashtags who may have been told what you 776 00:31:38,246 --> 00:31:43,806 were told about the Smurfs too Were you 777 00:31:43,806 --> 00:31:46,366 told that No I was not a God I missed a 778 00:31:46,366 --> 00:31:48,606 lot of things being in another country but 779 00:31:48,606 --> 00:31:51,258 yeah no I've heard that from the as well 780 00:31:51,258 --> 00:31:54,318 that the Smurfs were demonic Demonic Yeah 781 00:31:54,318 --> 00:31:58,458 I was like I just want to watch the Smurfs 782 00:31:58,458 --> 00:32:00,126 guys I wasn't scarred by that or anything 783 00:32:00,126 --> 00:32:02,546 I just think it's funny now Oh it's 784 00:32:02,546 --> 00:32:04,114 hilarious a I was actually Halloween Smurf 785 00:32:04,114 --> 00:32:05,138 at for Halloween one a which I know had 786 00:32:05,138 --> 00:32:07,666 lot of people had to miss Halloween from 787 00:32:07,666 --> 00:32:09,258 their evangelical upbringing too So I feel 788 00:32:09,258 --> 00:32:10,594 like that little bit privileged that I 789 00:32:10,594 --> 00:32:12,338 didn't have to miss individuals Was there 790 00:32:12,338 --> 00:32:14,646 a particular story that moved you in any 791 00:32:14,646 --> 00:32:16,246 particular way or changed your perspective 792 00:32:16,246 --> 00:32:21,274 at all on the whole evangelical community 793 00:32:21,274 --> 00:32:24,220 It was so kind of cathartic and 794 00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:27,786 fascinating to talk to people I called up 795 00:32:27,786 --> 00:32:29,226 old friends I reached out to people I 796 00:32:29,226 --> 00:32:31,706 didn't know that were on social media I 797 00:32:31,706 --> 00:32:35,294 talked to authors that I'd admired and 798 00:32:35,294 --> 00:32:37,678 kind of tried to form collage sort of 799 00:32:37,678 --> 00:32:40,126 composite collage of some of these 800 00:32:40,126 --> 00:32:42,254 perspectives and a range of different 801 00:32:42,254 --> 00:32:45,954 experiences So I can't just pick one But I 802 00:32:45,954 --> 00:32:47,826 will say I think the types of 803 00:32:47,826 --> 00:32:49,666 conversations that maybe were the most 804 00:32:49,666 --> 00:32:52,574 informative for me were the dialogues I 805 00:32:52,574 --> 00:32:54,846 had with non white Christians who had 806 00:32:54,846 --> 00:32:56,402 experience in white evangelical spaces I 807 00:32:56,402 --> 00:33:01,398 mean I knew growing up a we were taught a 808 00:33:01,398 --> 00:33:03,046 lot of good things that least on paper 809 00:33:03,046 --> 00:33:05,720 that we were taught that everybody was 810 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,014 made in God's image that racism was wrong 811 00:33:09,014 --> 00:33:10,506 and that God loved everyone equally And I 812 00:33:10,506 --> 00:33:12,666 so grateful that I was taught those things 813 00:33:12,666 --> 00:33:15,206 and I obviously believe those things But 814 00:33:15,206 --> 00:33:17,738 our churches and our schools didn't look 815 00:33:17,738 --> 00:33:21,918 really like America They were 816 00:33:21,918 --> 00:33:23,358 overwhelmingly white spaces And I don't 817 00:33:23,358 --> 00:33:27,358 think at the time I really understood what 818 00:33:27,358 --> 00:33:31,760 that meant Know the ways that 819 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,226 marginalizing certain voices shifts the 820 00:33:33,226 --> 00:33:35,146 person The people who aren't in the room 821 00:33:35,146 --> 00:33:39,266 aren't part of the discussion And so 822 00:33:39,266 --> 00:33:42,066 talking know black christians like Jamar 823 00:33:42,066 --> 00:33:43,234 Tisby about their experiences in these 824 00:33:43,234 --> 00:33:45,974 spaces and the way that that felt and 825 00:33:45,974 --> 00:33:49,160 looked was really I mean it's kind of 826 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,318 heartbreaking but also informative For 827 00:33:51,318 --> 00:33:53,874 know Dr Tisby and some of the people in 828 00:33:53,874 --> 00:33:57,046 his circles talk about decolonizing 829 00:33:57,046 --> 00:33:58,698 Christianity know white Christianity more 830 00:33:58,698 --> 00:34:01,510 than deconstructing it And I think that's 831 00:34:01,510 --> 00:34:05,670 valuable really fascinating and valuable 832 00:34:05,670 --> 00:34:08,060 perspective because Jesus was 833 00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:10,842 fundamentally about inclusion I believe 834 00:34:10,842 --> 00:34:12,846 and elevating voices of people that 835 00:34:12,846 --> 00:34:15,646 weren't always elevated And I think that 836 00:34:15,646 --> 00:34:17,710 something I wonder about a lot is how 837 00:34:17,710 --> 00:34:20,014 different our churches would look if 838 00:34:20,014 --> 00:34:23,578 people of color and if women and others 839 00:34:23,578 --> 00:34:25,806 who are not always centered had been 840 00:34:25,806 --> 00:34:27,506 centered and included in a more prominent 841 00:34:27,506 --> 00:34:31,054 way I think we would probably have a 842 00:34:31,054 --> 00:34:32,306 different set of priorities possibly and 843 00:34:32,306 --> 00:34:33,938 it would even shape our theology and it 844 00:34:33,938 --> 00:34:35,806 would probably shape the way we look at 845 00:34:35,806 --> 00:34:37,394 scripture What are the verses that we 846 00:34:37,394 --> 00:34:38,678 highlight and we worry about and we focus 847 00:34:38,678 --> 00:34:42,150 on and what are the ones that we think are 848 00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:45,814 just a vestige of culture I think those 849 00:34:45,814 --> 00:34:47,414 questions cannot be answered in isolation 850 00:34:47,414 --> 00:34:50,780 or just by one kind of person I think 851 00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:53,738 about that a lot too And my favorite thing 852 00:34:53,738 --> 00:34:55,306 about Jesus and one of the reasons I just 853 00:34:55,306 --> 00:35:02,810 can't let him go is because of how 854 00:35:02,810 --> 00:35:04,154 inclusive he I once again I think about 855 00:35:04,154 --> 00:35:06,846 that a lot too because I think Jesus was 856 00:35:06,846 --> 00:35:08,814 so inclusive I mean just the way he 857 00:35:08,814 --> 00:35:10,862 interacted With women with people who were 858 00:35:10,862 --> 00:35:12,602 oppressed is something that is I want to 859 00:35:12,602 --> 00:35:15,746 be like that's And so yeah that's one of 860 00:35:15,746 --> 00:35:17,586 the things that I see him often 861 00:35:17,586 --> 00:35:19,746 misrepresented in evangelical lot of white 862 00:35:19,746 --> 00:35:22,146 evangelical spaces especially in the 863 00:35:22,146 --> 00:35:25,154 christian nationalism for a very extreme 864 00:35:25,154 --> 00:35:28,134 example But yeah I do think that over time 865 00:35:28,134 --> 00:35:30,438 if you and I had both been in circles 866 00:35:30,438 --> 00:35:34,178 where it wasn't a lot of just white men 867 00:35:34,178 --> 00:35:35,878 preaching the sermons even a the 868 00:35:35,878 --> 00:35:38,886 theological books read lot of us read were 869 00:35:38,886 --> 00:35:41,186 written by white men and translated into 870 00:35:41,186 --> 00:35:42,778 Spanish for Indonesian or Malay for know 871 00:35:42,778 --> 00:35:43,866 like these other languages that I was 872 00:35:43,866 --> 00:35:47,654 exposed to a lot of the people writing and 873 00:35:47,654 --> 00:35:49,706 preaching were know this industry And 874 00:35:49,706 --> 00:35:51,066 Kristen Covez Dumay when she came on the 875 00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:53,806 podcast talked a lot about the publishing 876 00:35:53,806 --> 00:35:55,326 industry And you you go into that, little 877 00:35:55,326 --> 00:35:58,106 bit of that too how influential it was in 878 00:35:58,106 --> 00:36:00,990 white evangelicalism and the books people 879 00:36:00,990 --> 00:36:03,586 a it is centering a a perspective when 880 00:36:03,586 --> 00:36:08,340 there's a whole world of diverse opinions 881 00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:11,746 As can NPR journalist though can I Just 882 00:36:11,746 --> 00:36:13,986 say quickly I think there is another ditch 883 00:36:13,986 --> 00:36:17,026 people sometimes fall into which is to say 884 00:36:17,026 --> 00:36:19,606 well most people don't say it explicitly 885 00:36:19,606 --> 00:36:20,886 but to essentially say well Jesus would 886 00:36:20,886 --> 00:36:22,534 have been liberal. Democrat and a liberal 887 00:36:22,534 --> 00:36:26,054 And I just think that I don't like any of 888 00:36:26,054 --> 00:36:27,846 that personally I would rather that we 889 00:36:27,846 --> 00:36:29,398 just sort of I mean I think we just have 890 00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:31,098 to acknowledge though at we all looks at 891 00:36:31,098 --> 00:36:33,546 anyone who looks at the Bible and takes it 892 00:36:33,546 --> 00:36:36,346 seriously in one way for another as 893 00:36:36,346 --> 00:36:38,282 instructive for their lives We all bring 894 00:36:38,282 --> 00:36:42,186 our perspectives and our life experiences 895 00:36:42,186 --> 00:36:44,266 and our biases and I think we have to be 896 00:36:44,266 --> 00:36:45,934 honest about the fact that different 897 00:36:45,934 --> 00:36:47,214 people have highlighted different things 898 00:36:47,214 --> 00:36:49,134 And I'm not saying that. only 899 00:36:49,134 --> 00:36:50,558 conservatives do that Or only white men do 900 00:36:50,558 --> 00:36:52,334 a But it's just a human tendency that we 901 00:36:52,334 --> 00:36:54,738 have to be honest about I think if we'd 902 00:36:54,738 --> 00:36:56,386 start with that we'd have and more 903 00:36:56,386 --> 00:36:58,866 interesting conversation and probably more 904 00:36:58,866 --> 00:37:01,134 authentic Absolutely Yeah And I mean it's 905 00:37:01,134 --> 00:37:05,586 hard to even picture Jesus in an american 906 00:37:05,586 --> 00:37:07,490 political a because it's like a middle 907 00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:11,014 eastern man I don't know It's such a It's 908 00:37:11,014 --> 00:37:14,886 kind of a silly a it's kind of a 909 00:37:14,886 --> 00:37:16,134 ridiculous project Overall which is the 910 00:37:16,134 --> 00:37:19,426 whole like Jesus and John Wayne a 911 00:37:19,426 --> 00:37:21,626 picturing him as a cowboy is a a bit of a 912 00:37:21,626 --> 00:37:24,726 stretch for me But anyway but you're an 913 00:37:24,726 --> 00:37:26,730 NPR journalist now You've grown up in this 914 00:37:26,730 --> 00:37:28,726 environment How do you see this role of 915 00:37:28,726 --> 00:37:32,266 media in sort of shaping this conversation 916 00:37:32,266 --> 00:37:34,554 around evangelical stories I think 917 00:37:34,554 --> 00:37:35,566 particularly around we're seeing more 918 00:37:35,566 --> 00:37:38,414 things come out in the press around 919 00:37:38,414 --> 00:37:39,758 spiritual abuse that's contributed to many 920 00:37:39,758 --> 00:37:41,646 who have ended up in this ex evangelical 921 00:37:41,646 --> 00:37:42,946 community What is sort of the role that 922 00:37:42,946 --> 00:37:48,418 you think the press can play Well I think 923 00:37:48,418 --> 00:37:50,734 it's actually gotten better at least over 924 00:37:50,734 --> 00:37:54,418 the course of my career 20 plus years or 925 00:37:54,418 --> 00:37:58,006 so at this point I think I see more well 926 00:37:58,006 --> 00:38:01,110 there are more publications out there and 927 00:38:01,110 --> 00:38:04,930 I see more people with frankly knowledge 928 00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:06,726 and experience in these communities in 929 00:38:06,726 --> 00:38:09,030 national media And I think that's a good 930 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:11,354 thing I think too often evangelicals a 931 00:38:11,354 --> 00:38:13,546 sometimes reduced to and few talking heads 932 00:38:13,546 --> 00:38:16,218 and a few representatives of the movement 933 00:38:16,218 --> 00:38:17,978 when evangelicalism is such a big movement 934 00:38:17,978 --> 00:38:21,738 and it's not just white and it's not just 935 00:38:21,738 --> 00:38:24,298 one thing And so I think it's important to 936 00:38:24,298 --> 00:38:26,366 hear from people who've lived it not just 937 00:38:26,366 --> 00:38:28,154 their leaders who have an agenda that may 938 00:38:28,154 --> 00:38:31,246 or may not always align with them. people 939 00:38:31,246 --> 00:38:33,506 who follow them And that includes people 940 00:38:33,506 --> 00:38:35,860 who left it and who know this world 941 00:38:35,860 --> 00:38:40,594 firsthand and can sort of think you know 942 00:38:40,594 --> 00:38:43,860 one more voice in these larger discussions 943 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:48,258 It's too easy just to know one famous 944 00:38:48,258 --> 00:38:49,598 leader and I'm not going to name names 945 00:38:49,598 --> 00:38:52,514 here but we can think of some of the and 946 00:38:52,514 --> 00:38:54,886 ask about the evangelical vote in Iowa or 947 00:38:54,886 --> 00:38:56,918 whatever And I've done that but it's more 948 00:38:56,918 --> 00:38:58,518 texture than that And that's why I think 949 00:38:58,518 --> 00:39:00,806 as a journalist I try to get out and talk 950 00:39:00,806 --> 00:39:02,614 to average people as much as I can and 951 00:39:02,614 --> 00:39:05,674 listen to what they're saying and try to 952 00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:06,758 understand how they're thinking But yeah 953 00:39:06,758 --> 00:39:08,026 again one of the reasons I wanted to write 954 00:39:08,026 --> 00:39:10,026 this book is just to keep creating about 955 00:39:10,026 --> 00:39:13,310 space to talk about the fact that there 956 00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:15,066 isn't just one evangelical experience And 957 00:39:15,066 --> 00:39:17,710 I think for journalists it's important to 958 00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,342 talk about all of that as honestly as 959 00:39:21,342 --> 00:39:23,902 possible and that requires having so 960 00:39:23,902 --> 00:39:26,258 context Yeah that's so good I know the 961 00:39:26,258 --> 00:39:29,714 life of a journalist is so busy There's 962 00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:31,698 just hard hours Deadlines come fast You're 963 00:39:31,698 --> 00:39:34,386 on planes and trains and dealing with 964 00:39:34,386 --> 00:39:35,266 getting to political rallies and stuff 965 00:39:35,266 --> 00:39:37,826 like that But to be able to take the time 966 00:39:37,826 --> 00:39:39,814 to interview people who don't maybe have a 967 00:39:39,814 --> 00:39:42,374 big platform just to hear from an average 968 00:39:42,374 --> 00:39:45,846 person in the pew or whatever can be 969 00:39:45,846 --> 00:39:48,374 really impactful Those parts of the 970 00:39:48,374 --> 00:39:49,926 stories that I read they stand out They 971 00:39:49,926 --> 00:39:51,318 really do because we kind of hear over and 972 00:39:51,318 --> 00:39:52,506 over again the people with the big 973 00:39:52,506 --> 00:39:53,818 platforms We kind of know what they're 974 00:39:53,818 --> 00:39:55,274 going to say There's management lot of 975 00:39:55,274 --> 00:39:56,966 image management with that but sometimes 976 00:39:56,966 --> 00:39:59,926 just talking to your average person really 977 00:39:59,926 --> 00:40:01,674 gets you some really gold nuggets there 978 00:40:01,674 --> 00:40:03,790 And so thank you for doing that work 979 00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:06,942 Really based on your research and your 980 00:40:06,942 --> 00:40:08,734 personal insights I'd be interested to 981 00:40:08,734 --> 00:40:11,130 know what advice you would give to 982 00:40:11,130 --> 00:40:12,894 somebody who's sort of navigating this 983 00:40:12,894 --> 00:40:14,906 journey right now We probably have people 984 00:40:14,906 --> 00:40:17,886 listening that are sort of on the fence 985 00:40:17,886 --> 00:40:20,434 about whether to stay evangelical 1ft in 986 00:40:20,434 --> 00:40:23,506 1ft out maybe those who are freshly left 987 00:40:23,506 --> 00:40:26,306 but some of those who are still trying to 988 00:40:26,306 --> 00:40:30,214 navigate their way out of it Were there 989 00:40:30,214 --> 00:40:32,038 any patterns that you saw as you were 990 00:40:32,038 --> 00:40:33,398 interviewing people Any advice that you 991 00:40:33,398 --> 00:40:38,566 have based on what you researched and read 992 00:40:38,566 --> 00:40:41,386 I mean I'm really hesitant to give advice 993 00:40:41,386 --> 00:40:47,706 because I'm a journalist and that's just 994 00:40:47,706 --> 00:40:49,146 not what I do I guess the only advice I 995 00:40:49,146 --> 00:40:51,946 would give would just be as me Sarah not 996 00:40:51,946 --> 00:40:54,126 as clear, journalist To be clear I'm not 997 00:40:54,126 --> 00:40:57,374 an expert. I'm not an expert Everybody is 998 00:40:57,374 --> 00:41:00,734 on their own journey I think if I could 999 00:41:00,734 --> 00:41:02,618 give advice to myself going back my 1000 00:41:02,618 --> 00:41:05,282 younger self that's probably what I most 1001 00:41:05,282 --> 00:41:07,826 comfortable saying I would tell myself to 1002 00:41:07,826 --> 00:41:13,010 not be afraid of questions to not be 1003 00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:14,786 afraid to learn Sometimes I feel like 1004 00:41:14,786 --> 00:41:17,902 looking back I had to sort of read go to 1005 00:41:17,902 --> 00:41:19,650 museums that talked about evolution or 1006 00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:22,726 read books about the history of religion 1007 00:41:22,726 --> 00:41:23,574 It's almost like squinting because I 1008 00:41:23,574 --> 00:41:25,554 didn't want to see something that would 1009 00:41:25,554 --> 00:41:28,242 rock my faith or threaten my belief system 1010 00:41:28,242 --> 00:41:31,034 because it is so scary to think about 1011 00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:31,786 changing your mind about something And 1012 00:41:31,786 --> 00:41:33,866 then it's sort of like well where does it 1013 00:41:33,866 --> 00:41:38,938 go And I just want to fully acknowledge 1014 00:41:38,938 --> 00:41:41,306 that fear And I think if I could go back 1015 00:41:41,306 --> 00:41:44,526 to my younger self I would say don't be 1016 00:41:44,526 --> 00:41:46,926 afraid of questions Try to find trusted 1017 00:41:46,926 --> 00:41:48,350 people whether that's people in your 1018 00:41:48,350 --> 00:41:51,840 church or outside of it people who are of 1019 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,426 goodwill and that love you and tell them 1020 00:41:55,426 --> 00:41:57,826 what you thinking about and you have to 1021 00:41:57,826 --> 00:42:00,574 choose those people wisely But I think I 1022 00:42:00,574 --> 00:42:02,258 found them to some extent Even at my a 1023 00:42:02,258 --> 00:42:06,626 college I had that lot of professors that 1024 00:42:06,626 --> 00:42:07,950 were very thoughtful people and that I 1025 00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:09,526 could talk to about some of these things 1026 00:42:09,526 --> 00:42:13,606 like not everything all at once but pieces 1027 00:42:13,606 --> 00:42:16,774 of it And then I have an aunt who is not 1028 00:42:16,774 --> 00:42:18,978 religious but is spiritual And she's been 1029 00:42:18,978 --> 00:42:21,226 someone in my adult life who's been really 1030 00:42:21,226 --> 00:42:22,966 helpful supporting just sort of supporting 1031 00:42:22,966 --> 00:42:25,770 me and loving me regardless of what I 1032 00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:29,706 think with no strings attached for myself 1033 00:42:29,706 --> 00:42:31,306 I think there have been times when I felt 1034 00:42:31,306 --> 00:42:33,310 like I didn't know if it was okay to pray 1035 00:42:33,310 --> 00:42:35,966 if I didn't really believe or if I wasn't 1036 00:42:35,966 --> 00:42:38,334 sure what I believed Was I just talking to 1037 00:42:38,334 --> 00:42:41,818 thin air or was my prayer insincere or 1038 00:42:41,818 --> 00:42:45,118 something But I think it's okay to pray 1039 00:42:45,118 --> 00:42:46,446 anytime you want And I don't think you 1040 00:42:46,446 --> 00:42:49,726 have to know exactly what you think about 1041 00:42:49,726 --> 00:42:51,666 that's I think something that's been kind 1042 00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:53,746 of nice for me as I've gotten a little bit 1043 00:42:53,746 --> 00:42:55,654 older is that I almost feel like I have 1044 00:42:55,654 --> 00:42:57,318 that impulse to pray more now than I did 1045 00:42:57,318 --> 00:43:01,174 when I felt like I had to figure things 1046 00:43:01,174 --> 00:43:07,250 out first I don't think that God needs me 1047 00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:09,122 to have a systematic theology worked out 1048 00:43:09,122 --> 00:43:11,386 before I say also prayer And I also look 1049 00:43:11,386 --> 00:43:13,318 around the world and I realize that humans 1050 00:43:13,318 --> 00:43:15,690 have prayed in all kinds of different ways 1051 00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:19,820 and it's a very human impulse And I think 1052 00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:22,894 that that is beautiful and should be part 1053 00:43:22,894 --> 00:43:26,446 of that process too for those who want it 1054 00:43:26,446 --> 00:43:29,646 to be Great advice to your younger self 1055 00:43:29,646 --> 00:43:33,566 And we all gleaned from it it's beautiful 1056 00:43:33,566 --> 00:43:35,506 As you think about the people that you 1057 00:43:35,506 --> 00:43:38,002 interviewed for this book and then what 1058 00:43:38,002 --> 00:43:40,482 you're seeing kind of happen right now We 1059 00:43:40,482 --> 00:43:43,794 are in a election year There's a lot of 1060 00:43:43,794 --> 00:43:48,046 talk out there We see a lot of the Gen Z 1061 00:43:48,046 --> 00:43:49,846 that are eligible to vote this time. that 1062 00:43:49,846 --> 00:43:53,026 weren't last time And as you mentioned 1063 00:43:53,026 --> 00:43:55,046 they're much more diverse They've been 1064 00:43:55,046 --> 00:43:56,898 raised to social media My 16 year old told 1065 00:43:56,898 --> 00:43:59,318 me the other day she's like we look at 1066 00:43:59,318 --> 00:44:00,886 millennials and they're like the last 1067 00:44:00,886 --> 00:44:02,854 generation a wasn't raised with a phone 1068 00:44:02,854 --> 00:44:05,290 Sometimes we kind of envy them Like she 1069 00:44:05,290 --> 00:44:08,666 likes to watch early 2000 movies because 1070 00:44:08,666 --> 00:44:10,138 like that time before we have happening 1071 00:44:10,138 --> 00:44:11,914 lot of changes happening certainly our 1072 00:44:11,914 --> 00:44:13,270 society And certainly the ex angelicals 1073 00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:16,314 here in the US are a huge part of it So 1074 00:44:16,314 --> 00:44:18,762 what future developments or trends do you 1075 00:44:18,762 --> 00:44:19,726 anticipate for the exvangelical movement 1076 00:44:19,726 --> 00:44:26,382 and maybe its sort of impact on broader 1077 00:44:26,382 --> 00:44:27,058 religious and cultural landscapes Again I 1078 00:44:27,058 --> 00:44:28,706 don't like to make a ton of predictions 1079 00:44:28,706 --> 00:44:31,378 It's funny though I've had similar 1080 00:44:31,378 --> 00:44:33,826 conversations with my kids especially my 1081 00:44:33,826 --> 00:44:36,214 younger one about nostalgia for a time 1082 00:44:36,214 --> 00:44:39,378 that he never knew and that I don't 1083 00:44:39,378 --> 00:44:41,400 remember that well and I'm sure you don't 1084 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,830 either that well But yes nonetheless I 1085 00:44:45,830 --> 00:44:48,598 guess I have more questions than 1086 00:44:48,598 --> 00:44:51,898 predictions I'm curious to see where sort 1087 00:44:51,898 --> 00:44:54,774 of younger exvangelicals people who maybe 1088 00:44:54,774 --> 00:44:56,298 were raised with some evangelical 1089 00:44:56,298 --> 00:44:57,914 tradition but have sort of stepped away 1090 00:44:57,914 --> 00:44:59,818 from it where they go if they don't have 1091 00:44:59,818 --> 00:45:00,938 their own religious tradition This is 1092 00:45:00,938 --> 00:45:03,094 something that I touch on in the book is 1093 00:45:03,094 --> 00:45:04,590 just the challenge of figuring out when 1094 00:45:04,590 --> 00:45:06,746 you form your own family how to form that 1095 00:45:06,746 --> 00:45:08,366 family and how to raise your kids and what 1096 00:45:08,366 --> 00:45:12,206 to tell them if you yourself are 1097 00:45:12,206 --> 00:45:13,682 deconstructing or uncertain about what 1098 00:45:13,682 --> 00:45:18,674 your want to. attach your identity to And 1099 00:45:18,674 --> 00:45:20,626 I'm also curious about how churches 1100 00:45:20,626 --> 00:45:23,650 respond I touched on this a moment ago but 1101 00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:27,702 will churches figure out ways to I mean 1102 00:45:27,702 --> 00:45:29,526 genuinely welcome people who are not just 1103 00:45:29,526 --> 00:45:33,094 say you can come and be with us and we'll 1104 00:45:33,094 --> 00:45:35,974 tolerate you but will there be more 1105 00:45:35,974 --> 00:45:41,910 religious spaces for people who don't feel 1106 00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:44,666 comfortable with christian traditional 1107 00:45:44,666 --> 00:45:46,426 evangelical or christian set of beliefs I 1108 00:45:46,426 --> 00:45:49,626 visited a church like that in Nashville 1109 00:45:49,626 --> 00:45:51,466 and wrote about it sort of later in the 1110 00:45:51,466 --> 00:45:53,726 book and it was interesting to see kind of 1111 00:45:53,726 --> 00:45:56,094 how that worked and how that felt And I 1112 00:45:56,094 --> 00:45:59,930 think we might see more in like that 1113 00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:02,078 particularly in again an increasingly 1114 00:46:02,078 --> 00:46:03,134 diverse and secularized society I think 1115 00:46:03,134 --> 00:46:07,330 people are always going to need connection 1116 00:46:07,330 --> 00:46:09,074 and look for meaning but where they find 1117 00:46:09,074 --> 00:46:12,386 it I think might Change a little bit Yeah 1118 00:46:12,386 --> 00:46:14,290 I think so I think we're seeing that here 1119 00:46:14,290 --> 00:46:17,506 on the west coast too A know just finding 1120 00:46:17,506 --> 00:46:19,798 new ways And certainly the pandemic had 1121 00:46:19,798 --> 00:46:22,182 its own factors and a lot of that for a 1122 00:46:22,182 --> 00:46:25,318 lot of people So yeah interesting to hear 1123 00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:27,094 your perspective on that Well I do want to 1124 00:46:27,094 --> 00:46:28,374 ask you one more question and we'll have 1125 00:46:28,374 --> 00:46:31,654 you hang out again later for our Patreon 1126 00:46:31,654 --> 00:46:33,658 our difference makers community But for 1127 00:46:33,658 --> 00:46:35,194 this conversation I do just a to give you 1128 00:46:35,194 --> 00:46:37,466 a chance to let people know if they want 1129 00:46:37,466 --> 00:46:39,946 to read more about what you're writing How 1130 00:46:39,946 --> 00:46:45,066 can people find you Where are you And let 1131 00:46:45,066 --> 00:46:47,166 people know I'm on all the social medias 1132 00:46:47,166 --> 00:46:48,974 pretty much but I'm trying to write more 1133 00:46:48,974 --> 00:46:50,126 and more on substac because I feel like I 1134 00:46:50,126 --> 00:46:52,458 can have nuanced little bit more nuanced a 1135 00:46:52,458 --> 00:46:55,186 and I share a little bit about life on the 1136 00:46:55,186 --> 00:46:58,322 road as a reporter and also sometimes 1137 00:46:58,322 --> 00:47:02,290 personal things I'm and mom of teens and 1138 00:47:02,290 --> 00:47:08,802 tween so to be teen so I'm just Sarah 1139 00:47:08,802 --> 00:47:10,886 McCammon on substac MCCA Mmon And my 1140 00:47:10,886 --> 00:47:13,622 substac is called off the air because it's 1141 00:47:13,622 --> 00:47:17,480 kind of my little side project when I'm 1142 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,826 not on the radio and I'm unfortunately 1143 00:47:20,826 --> 00:47:23,386 still on Twitter and my dms are open but I 1144 00:47:23,386 --> 00:47:26,010 would just encourage everybody to start at 1145 00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:30,726 substack I free to subscribe I do take 1146 00:47:30,726 --> 00:47:32,874 paid subscribers but everything I've never 1147 00:47:32,874 --> 00:47:34,878 put anything behind and paywall so far and 1148 00:47:34,878 --> 00:47:38,650 don't plan on it as long as I am employed 1149 00:47:38,650 --> 00:47:41,150 full time as really journalist So it's 1150 00:47:41,150 --> 00:47:42,894 really just mostly for fun and stay nice 1151 00:47:42,894 --> 00:47:44,550 way to stay in touch with people who are 1152 00:47:44,550 --> 00:47:46,706 interested interested the things I'm 1153 00:47:46,706 --> 00:47:48,862 interested in Awesome Yeah I love your 1154 00:47:48,862 --> 00:47:50,658 substack And everybody go subscribe to the 1155 00:47:50,658 --> 00:47:53,394 substack And if you have a little extra 1156 00:47:53,394 --> 00:47:58,326 money let her be paid for her work Only if 1157 00:47:58,326 --> 00:48:01,880 you want to It's like public media We say 1158 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,166 you can but you know Set them into giving 1159 00:48:06,166 --> 00:48:08,866 you a little support Thank you so much for 1160 00:48:08,866 --> 00:48:10,038 this conversation today Sarah It's be so 1161 00:48:10,038 --> 00:48:11,594 great to be able to read your book get to 1162 00:48:11,594 --> 00:48:13,558 know you a little better through your 1163 00:48:13,558 --> 00:48:14,938 writing and through this conversation And 1164 00:48:14,938 --> 00:48:18,794 yeah thank you for the great work that you 1165 00:48:18,794 --> 00:48:21,238 do Thank you so much This has been great 1166 00:48:21,238 --> 00:48:24,382 I'm so grateful for that very nuanced 1167 00:48:24,382 --> 00:48:26,426 conversation with Sarah I just love 1168 00:48:26,426 --> 00:48:29,134 hearing her perspective I loved reading 1169 00:48:29,134 --> 00:48:31,786 her book It's so well written She's a good 1170 00:48:31,786 --> 00:48:33,582 writer but she also brings herself into 1171 00:48:33,582 --> 00:48:36,786 the story Her own personal narrative is so 1172 00:48:36,786 --> 00:48:39,362 compelling but she's in the middle of 1173 00:48:39,362 --> 00:48:40,814 history walking alongside things happening 1174 00:48:40,814 --> 00:48:43,586 with the Donald Trump campaign in real 1175 00:48:43,586 --> 00:48:46,306 time She's very vulnerable about her own 1176 00:48:46,306 --> 00:48:47,954 upbringing in white evangelicalism and in 1177 00:48:47,954 --> 00:48:50,886 her family What that was like for her and 1178 00:48:50,886 --> 00:48:51,974 know includes personal narratives of 1179 00:48:51,974 --> 00:48:55,186 others that she spoke to about the book as 1180 00:48:55,186 --> 00:48:57,726 she was researching this exvangelical 1181 00:48:57,726 --> 00:49:01,802 community with so much nuance so much care 1182 00:49:01,802 --> 00:49:04,506 And it's really beautiful book It really 1183 00:49:04,506 --> 00:49:07,594 helps dig deep For those of you in any 1184 00:49:07,594 --> 00:49:10,234 religious environment the currently or in 1185 00:49:10,234 --> 00:49:14,046 the past you will find this book to be so 1186 00:49:14,046 --> 00:49:16,062 insightful She really brings that lot of 1187 00:49:16,062 --> 00:49:20,042 nuance that we so much need in the 1188 00:49:20,042 --> 00:49:21,374 conversation and she just authentically 1189 00:49:21,374 --> 00:49:24,078 shows us kind of where she's at And a so 1190 00:49:24,078 --> 00:49:26,514 refreshing in management, world of image 1191 00:49:26,514 --> 00:49:28,946 management both in politics and religion 1192 00:49:28,946 --> 00:49:31,218 And so yeah I found her book just so 1193 00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:34,226 compelling So do check it out It's called 1194 00:49:34,226 --> 00:49:36,222 the exvangelicals Loving living and 1195 00:49:36,222 --> 00:49:38,446 leaving the white evangelical church It 1196 00:49:38,446 --> 00:49:40,566 releases on March 19 but go preorder 1197 00:49:40,566 --> 00:49:44,038 because that definitely helps the book 1198 00:49:44,038 --> 00:49:45,846 sales And yeah we want to help people like 1199 00:49:45,846 --> 00:49:47,526 Sarah out because we want to continue to 1200 00:49:47,526 --> 00:49:49,686 hear her voice read her writing and have 1201 00:49:49,686 --> 00:49:51,926 her be there at the table as we're 1202 00:49:51,926 --> 00:49:53,818 learning from her and what she's covering 1203 00:49:53,818 --> 00:49:57,078 in the news as a journalist So a her work 1204 00:49:57,078 --> 00:49:58,854 as a journalist and helping us see the 1205 00:49:58,854 --> 00:50:00,234 nuance and just her courage to walked 1206 00:50:00,234 --> 00:50:01,962 through what she walked through in the 1207 00:50:01,962 --> 00:50:03,658 time of the Donald Trump campaign And one 1208 00:50:03,658 --> 00:50:06,174 that's kind of one of the most compelling 1209 00:50:06,174 --> 00:50:07,486 parts of the book that really kind of 1210 00:50:07,486 --> 00:50:09,754 brought me to a There is just a really 1211 00:50:09,754 --> 00:50:11,278 beautiful moment even the introduction 1212 00:50:11,278 --> 00:50:12,926 that she describes and I can't imagine 1213 00:50:12,926 --> 00:50:14,954 what that was like the trauma that her 1214 00:50:14,954 --> 00:50:18,226 body must have felt by being sort of the 1215 00:50:18,226 --> 00:50:21,522 target of anger lot of this anger and 1216 00:50:21,522 --> 00:50:23,634 frenzy in those moments But she really is 1217 00:50:23,634 --> 00:50:25,186 so courageous stories bring us those to 1218 00:50:25,186 --> 00:50:27,574 and to continue to bring us stories as 1219 00:50:27,574 --> 00:50:29,494 we're in another election year with Donald 1220 00:50:29,494 --> 00:50:32,454 Trump up for president once again And so 1221 00:50:32,454 --> 00:50:34,630 please continue to follow her work once 1222 00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:37,958 again Look for her McCammon, Twitter at 1223 00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:40,150 Sarah McCammon and then also subscribe to 1224 00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:42,026 her substack off the air She's once again 1225 00:50:42,026 --> 00:50:43,834 just a great writer and she brings such 1226 00:50:43,834 --> 00:50:45,818 good insight We really need her voice and 1227 00:50:45,818 --> 00:50:48,778 she truly is making a difference So 1228 00:50:48,778 --> 00:50:50,666 grateful for her to be on the show today 1229 00:50:50,666 --> 00:50:52,886 And for those of you who haven't been 1230 00:50:52,886 --> 00:50:54,826 following her until now I'm so glad to 1231 00:50:54,826 --> 00:50:56,846 introduce you to her and to elevate her 1232 00:50:56,846 --> 00:50:59,278 voice to amplify her out to the world 1233 00:50:59,278 --> 00:51:00,686 Wherever you listen around the world to 1234 00:51:00,686 --> 00:51:02,446 this podcast I do hope you start to follow 1235 00:51:02,446 --> 00:51:05,002 Sarah and I'd love to hear what your 1236 00:51:05,002 --> 00:51:06,850 thoughts were on today's podcast Did this 1237 00:51:06,850 --> 00:51:10,510 bring in up for you in the political sense 1238 00:51:10,510 --> 00:51:12,434 of the Donald Trump campaign or what 1239 00:51:12,434 --> 00:51:14,766 happened in the United States in the 2016 1240 00:51:14,766 --> 00:51:18,946 election cycle or even what's in up this 1241 00:51:18,946 --> 00:51:21,814 year being 2024 or just being a part of an 1242 00:51:21,814 --> 00:51:23,126 ex evangelical community If you identify 1243 00:51:23,126 --> 00:51:24,726 that way I would love to hear what your 1244 00:51:24,726 --> 00:51:27,446 thoughts are about what we discussed today 1245 00:51:27,446 --> 00:51:28,934 and whether this sounded kind of like your 1246 00:51:28,934 --> 00:51:30,058 experience or whether there were 1247 00:51:30,058 --> 00:51:32,566 differences that you want to bring up or 1248 00:51:32,566 --> 00:51:34,890 if you're in any faith community and 1249 00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:37,094 you've been having some questions I do 1250 00:51:37,094 --> 00:51:40,538 just love the way Sarah talked about that 1251 00:51:40,538 --> 00:51:42,778 The fear around asking questions or the 1252 00:51:42,778 --> 00:51:44,258 fear around looking for something outside 1253 00:51:44,258 --> 00:51:47,166 of what you've been taught in your faith 1254 00:51:47,166 --> 00:51:48,654 community The fear around that I just 1255 00:51:48,654 --> 00:51:49,966 loved her honesty and her authenticity 1256 00:51:49,966 --> 00:51:52,142 about it because that is because very real 1257 00:51:52,142 --> 00:51:53,666 experience because you don't always know 1258 00:51:53,666 --> 00:51:55,442 where it will lead What will this mean in 1259 00:51:55,442 --> 00:51:59,314 terms of if I leave this faith community 1260 00:51:59,314 --> 00:52:01,634 practicing my religion in this particular 1261 00:52:01,634 --> 00:52:05,826 way in this denomination or in this or of 1262 00:52:05,826 --> 00:52:08,614 my faith or even your faith in general 1263 00:52:08,614 --> 00:52:10,914 your entire religion in general all of 1264 00:52:10,914 --> 00:52:13,506 that can be very is like the ground is 1265 00:52:13,506 --> 00:52:15,734 falling out beneath your feet or that the 1266 00:52:15,734 --> 00:52:17,686 floor is unstable your very foundation 1267 00:52:17,686 --> 00:52:20,634 feels shaken and it's hard to know which 1268 00:52:20,634 --> 00:52:22,938 way is north And that description of what 1269 00:52:22,938 --> 00:52:25,626 she talked about is because very real 1270 00:52:25,626 --> 00:52:26,614 experience because our identities are 1271 00:52:26,614 --> 00:52:29,226 wrapped up in our faith communities and 1272 00:52:29,226 --> 00:52:31,546 that's usually our families and our 1273 00:52:31,546 --> 00:52:34,378 friends And to question those things is 1274 00:52:34,378 --> 00:52:36,606 very difficult And I have a lot of 1275 00:52:36,606 --> 00:52:38,110 compassion on anybody walking through that 1276 00:52:38,110 --> 00:52:39,934 So please do reach out Once again we go a 1277 00:52:39,934 --> 00:52:41,738 little bit deeper with her in our 1278 00:52:41,738 --> 00:52:46,106 difference maker community So I'd love to 1279 00:52:46,106 --> 00:52:54,542 have you stop by ww.patreon That's P A T R 1280 00:52:54,542 --> 00:52:57,970 E O N of That's Patreon 1281 00:52:57,970 --> 00:53:00,022 Comaworldofdifference You can come in 1282 00:53:00,022 --> 00:53:02,118 there try some of our in depth more going 1283 00:53:02,118 --> 00:53:03,334 deeper with different guests and including 1284 00:53:03,334 --> 00:53:06,726 Sarah where we go a little bit deeper with 1285 00:53:06,726 --> 00:53:07,574 her around this conversation exclusively 1286 00:53:07,574 --> 00:53:08,694 for you difference makers And you can try 1287 00:53:08,694 --> 00:53:11,474 it out for free for a little bit see if 1288 00:53:11,474 --> 00:53:12,898 you like it and then subscribe on a 1289 00:53:12,898 --> 00:53:14,986 monthly or yearly basis But would love to 1290 00:53:14,986 --> 00:53:17,690 have you in there where we can dm you can 1291 00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:18,746 interact with other people in the 1292 00:53:18,746 --> 00:53:21,030 community and we can kind of sit at the 1293 00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:23,274 table and learn how to make a difference 1294 00:53:23,274 --> 00:53:24,906 together around this conversation and many 1295 00:53:24,906 --> 00:53:25,678 other conversations I think there's 1296 00:53:25,678 --> 00:53:28,286 something like 75 posts in there now So 1297 00:53:28,286 --> 00:53:30,366 when you join you get access to those And 1298 00:53:30,366 --> 00:53:32,270 yeah would love to have you show up there 1299 00:53:32,270 --> 00:53:34,558 because together. whole point of this 1300 00:53:34,558 --> 00:53:36,574 podcast is us making a difference together 1301 00:53:36,574 --> 00:53:37,966 I really appreciate each of your 1302 00:53:37,966 --> 00:53:39,760 differences each of you listening around 1303 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:44,206 the world I hope that yourself, take a 1304 00:53:44,206 --> 00:53:46,086 moment today to just love yourself care 1305 00:53:46,086 --> 00:53:46,994 for yourself and recognize your 1306 00:53:46,994 --> 00:53:47,894 differences are beautiful beautiful And 1307 00:53:47,894 --> 00:53:50,054 when you bring those to the table and you 1308 00:53:50,054 --> 00:53:52,306 bring your full self to the table these 1309 00:53:52,306 --> 00:53:54,402 world becomes brains better place when we 1310 00:53:54,402 --> 00:53:55,974 make decisions with these diversity of 1311 00:53:55,974 --> 00:53:57,718 brains around the table So glad Sarah 1312 00:53:57,718 --> 00:53:58,806 brought her perspective and her brain 1313 00:53:58,806 --> 00:54:02,054 around the table today And I do hope that