A podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.

Jan. 17, 2024

Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!

Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.

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Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.

In this episode, you will be able to:

Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.
Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.
Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.
Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.
Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.

My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnight

Meet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible.

"I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnight

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

Check out Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament.
Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's newsletter
Consider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight.
Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.
Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, The Jesus Creed.
Follow him on Twitter: @scotmcknight
Read Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.
Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.

The Way of Jesus

Good leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches.

"Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnight

Women in Ministry

An accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.

Keeping Names Authentic

One of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience.

"We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnight

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction,

Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.

00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,

McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.

00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,

McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.

00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,

The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.

00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,

Familiarity with the text can sometimes

00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.

00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.

00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.

00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,

Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.

00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.

00:35:25 - The Power With,

Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.

00:36:53 - Power For,

Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.

00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,

Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.

00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,

Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.

00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,

Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.

00:53:38 - Call to Action,

Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.

00:54:48 - Tov

Lori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.

00:56:03 - Conclusion,

Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.

Appreciate the role of cultural context and precise translation in interpreting the Bible effectively.
Comprehend the various power dynamics at play within the church and their implications.
Recognize signs of spiritual abuse, ensuring adequate support for survivors.
Grasp the crucial need for responsible leadership and the ethical use of power.
Discover the valuable contributions of female scholars and survivors in the ministry.
Realize the importance of context and accurate translation in unlocking the true meaning of biblical passages.
Uncover diversities in church power dynamics and their impacts on members.
Identify the nature of spiritual abuse and the ways to help survivors heal.
Understand the significance of virtuous leadership and the fair exercise of power for communal benefit.
Shed light on the often-overlooked perspectives of women scholars and abuse survivors in ministry.

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Transcript

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,426 Welcome to the A World of Difference 2 00:00:04,426 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,718 want to make a difference. We have back on 5 00:00:12,718 --> 00:00:15,694 the podcast this week Dr. Scott McKnight, 6 00:00:15,694 --> 00:00:19,946 a huge friend and of many of you 7 00:00:19,946 --> 00:00:23,134 listening. He is very active in terms of 8 00:00:23,134 --> 00:00:26,066 not only his writing, but is also an 9 00:00:26,066 --> 00:00:28,086 advocate in the survivor community. Scott 10 00:00:28,086 --> 00:00:31,174 welcome back to the podcast It's great to 11 00:00:31,174 --> 00:00:33,106 have you back on again Lori good to see 12 00:00:33,106 --> 00:00:36,294 you again Thank you Of course it's always 13 00:00:36,294 --> 00:00:37,686 great to see you.Scott just being with 14 00:00:37,686 --> 00:00:40,218 someone who is knowledgeable who's written 15 00:00:40,218 --> 00:00:42,954 so many books How many books have you even 16 00:00:42,954 --> 00:00:46,586 written a this point do you even know Well 17 00:00:46,586 --> 00:00:49,242 I don't count them but Chris does I bet 18 00:00:49,242 --> 00:00:52,038 Chris does It's over 90 It's over 90 I 19 00:00:52,038 --> 00:00:53,866 think it's in close to that magic number 20 00:00:53,866 --> 00:00:57,406 Oh my goodness And you've released several 21 00:00:57,406 --> 00:01:00,270 recently You're like the human chat 22 00:01:00,270 --> 00:01:03,498 GPT.Who Needs chat GPT when you have Scott 23 00:01:03,498 --> 00:01:05,278 McKnight churning out like three books 24 00:01:05,278 --> 00:01:08,798 being released all like within also month 25 00:01:08,798 --> 00:01:11,906 Well I write four books a year for the 26 00:01:11,906 --> 00:01:13,262 everyday Bible studies so that's going on 27 00:01:13,262 --> 00:01:15,474 But this a been a very busy year because 28 00:01:15,474 --> 00:01:19,366 of COVID all these things have stacked up 29 00:01:19,366 --> 00:01:21,094 and publishers are getting them is has 30 00:01:21,094 --> 00:01:24,178 been number one year I guess in number of 31 00:01:24,178 --> 00:01:26,726 books that have come out Well we're 32 00:01:26,726 --> 00:01:28,546 excited and I'm enjoying everything you're 33 00:01:28,546 --> 00:01:31,018 writing and your substac obviously which 34 00:01:31,018 --> 00:01:33,034 is you're just constantly writing and 35 00:01:33,034 --> 00:01:36,234 helping us understand in Illinois. a 36 00:01:36,234 --> 00:01:38,186 deeper way But this book is really 37 00:01:38,186 --> 00:01:39,658 exciting because you have decided to work 38 00:01:39,658 --> 00:01:41,706 on another English translation of the New 39 00:01:41,706 --> 00:01:44,190 Testament which is a huge undertaking Help 40 00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:47,754 us understand why you took this on and 41 00:01:47,754 --> 00:01:52,554 what it means to you To do this work.Yes 42 00:01:52,554 --> 00:01:54,846 and it's a good question And I've asked 43 00:01:54,846 --> 00:01:58,334 myself this question because so many 44 00:01:58,334 --> 00:02:00,014 people keep asking me this question Why do 45 00:02:00,014 --> 00:02:03,074 this Well one way to put it is I think our 46 00:02:03,074 --> 00:02:05,710 capacity or ability to translate Greek New 47 00:02:05,710 --> 00:02:08,134 Testament Greek into a called dynamic 48 00:02:08,134 --> 00:02:10,166 equivalents or something that is thought 49 00:02:10,166 --> 00:02:12,962 for thought between Greek and English has 50 00:02:12,962 --> 00:02:15,974 reached constantly level of near 51 00:02:15,974 --> 00:02:17,862 perfection And with the quickness of being 52 00:02:17,862 --> 00:02:20,774 able to publish we keep getting new 53 00:02:20,774 --> 00:02:23,002 translations.But I mean there's very 54 00:02:23,002 --> 00:02:24,586 little improvement on Nt rights the 55 00:02:24,586 --> 00:02:26,874 Kingdom New Testament or if you like the 56 00:02:26,874 --> 00:02:30,922 NIV the NIV 2011 or if you like the New 57 00:02:30,922 --> 00:02:33,210 Living Translation those are very good 58 00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:35,102 translations who are trying to find 59 00:02:35,102 --> 00:02:36,222 dynamic English equivalents to Greek 60 00:02:36,222 --> 00:02:38,094 sentences In the process I have 61 00:02:38,094 --> 00:02:40,254 encountered so many people who are stunned 62 00:02:40,254 --> 00:02:41,646 to discover that the New Testament was 63 00:02:41,646 --> 00:02:46,706 actually written in Greek And I say oh 64 00:02:46,706 --> 00:02:48,066 well the Greek sentence doesn't actually 65 00:02:48,066 --> 00:02:49,154 go like that but that's are nice 66 00:02:49,154 --> 00:02:53,438 equivalent So over and over I've tried to 67 00:02:53,438 --> 00:02:57,158 show students and audiences sunday school 68 00:02:57,158 --> 00:02:58,966 classes whatever that the Greek sentence 69 00:02:58,966 --> 00:03:02,066 is not quite so clever as the English 70 00:03:02,066 --> 00:03:06,374 sentence and that we sometimes miss things 71 00:03:06,374 --> 00:03:08,122 when we make it a natural English 72 00:03:08,122 --> 00:03:11,434 equivalent For instance okay I don't think 73 00:03:11,434 --> 00:03:13,914 you're old enough to have grown up with 74 00:03:13,914 --> 00:03:17,526 the King James but you grew up in circles 75 00:03:17,526 --> 00:03:20,250 that were probably using the King 76 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:23,038 James.Yeah I grew up in Spanish Speaking 77 00:03:23,038 --> 00:03:25,594 Reyna Valeda was what we use but the 78 00:03:25,594 --> 00:03:29,534 English one was often King James when we 79 00:03:29,534 --> 00:03:31,502 did it Okay And there is a famous 80 00:03:31,502 --> 00:03:34,834 expression in Paul that he uses Meganoita 81 00:03:34,834 --> 00:03:39,346 in Greek It's translated in the KJV as God 82 00:03:39,346 --> 00:03:41,186 forbid.And I remember in college my Greek 83 00:03:41,186 --> 00:03:46,034 teacher telling me that he said this is 84 00:03:46,034 --> 00:03:48,486 the taking of the Lord's name in vain 85 00:03:48,486 --> 00:03:50,566 which it's wasn't but it really got my 86 00:03:50,566 --> 00:03:52,502 attention He said the word God is not 87 00:03:52,502 --> 00:03:56,262 mentioned there It just says May it never 88 00:03:56,262 --> 00:03:58,566 be And that's different than God forbid 89 00:03:58,566 --> 00:04:00,954 And so a more literal translation may it 90 00:04:00,954 --> 00:04:03,034 never be is preferred.And so over and over 91 00:04:03,034 --> 00:04:05,190 and over I've seen this in the New 92 00:04:05,190 --> 00:04:07,974 Testament that we can sometimes get back 93 00:04:07,974 --> 00:04:12,974 to the Greek and see things Now here's 94 00:04:12,974 --> 00:04:15,246 what happened Tom Wright wrote a 95 00:04:15,246 --> 00:04:18,014 translation of the New Testament kingdom 96 00:04:18,014 --> 00:04:19,534 New Testament then wrote a little series 97 00:04:19,534 --> 00:04:22,318 of commentaries along with it Actually he 98 00:04:22,318 --> 00:04:24,446 wrote the series of commentaries and 99 00:04:24,446 --> 00:04:27,698 translated the New Testament and it became 100 00:04:27,698 --> 00:04:31,810 the Kingdom New Testament and it was very 101 00:04:31,810 --> 00:04:35,038 good And then John Goldingay an Old 102 00:04:35,038 --> 00:04:38,294 Testament scholar a friend of Tom's did 103 00:04:38,294 --> 00:04:41,174 the same thing for the Old Testament.He 104 00:04:41,174 --> 00:04:44,210 translated it Then in England they 105 00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:47,138 published these two the and I think they 106 00:04:47,138 --> 00:04:50,110 called it the Everyday Bible or something 107 00:04:50,110 --> 00:04:52,826 like this It's a very nice translation I 108 00:04:52,826 --> 00:04:54,486 bought it immediately because I really 109 00:04:54,486 --> 00:04:58,054 wanted to see what Golden Gay was doing in 110 00:04:58,054 --> 00:05:00,026 the Old Testament And then university had 111 00:05:00,026 --> 00:05:01,834 rights to John golden gay's old testament 112 00:05:01,834 --> 00:05:03,502 called they first Testament.Zondervan had 113 00:05:03,502 --> 00:05:06,062 rights to Tom Wright's in New Testament So 114 00:05:06,062 --> 00:05:07,834 University couldn't print Tom Wright's 115 00:05:07,834 --> 00:05:10,654 with John Golden gay So in the United 116 00:05:10,654 --> 00:05:13,182 States they were published separately So I 117 00:05:13,182 --> 00:05:15,326 get University's the first testament by 118 00:05:15,326 --> 00:05:17,266 Golden Gay And I start reading it.And as 119 00:05:17,266 --> 00:05:26,386 I'm reading it I think this is not at all 120 00:05:26,386 --> 00:05:27,766 commensurate with what Tom Wright is doing 121 00:05:27,766 --> 00:05:31,080 I was at an academic meeting and I met the 122 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,334 editor the main guy at university and I 123 00:05:33,334 --> 00:05:36,966 said those two translations don't belong 124 00:05:36,966 --> 00:05:40,986 together He said what do you mean I said 125 00:05:40,986 --> 00:05:42,106 Well Tom Wright's is a paraphrastic 126 00:05:42,106 --> 00:05:43,546 dynamic equivalent and John Goldingay is 127 00:05:43,546 --> 00:05:46,614 much more formal equivalent much more word 128 00:05:46,614 --> 00:05:51,694 for word And he said what do you think we 129 00:05:51,694 --> 00:05:54,880 should do about it I said well you need to 130 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,786 have a translation like Golden Gay of the 131 00:05:57,786 --> 00:06:02,218 New Testament He said Would you do it And 132 00:06:02,218 --> 00:06:05,166 I looked at him I said yes I'll do that I 133 00:06:05,166 --> 00:06:08,642 want to do this because I believe in the 134 00:06:08,642 --> 00:06:12,210 power of a more a translation And a couple 135 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:15,954 of the distinctives of Golden Gay's 136 00:06:15,954 --> 00:06:17,266 translation this he transliterated a Lori 137 00:06:17,266 --> 00:06:19,142 you know Spanish Okay When you take 138 00:06:19,142 --> 00:06:21,046 someone's name say Jose My next door 139 00:06:21,046 --> 00:06:25,494 neighbor's name is Jorge and you translate 140 00:06:25,494 --> 00:06:27,686 it as George or Joe That's not that 141 00:06:27,686 --> 00:06:30,146 person's name.There's something that is 142 00:06:30,146 --> 00:06:33,178 evoked by Jorge and Jose that is not 143 00:06:33,178 --> 00:06:35,354 evoked And there's something else that is 144 00:06:35,354 --> 00:06:37,754 evoked by Joe So John Golden Gate 145 00:06:37,754 --> 00:06:38,874 transliterated names which can be very 146 00:06:38,874 --> 00:06:41,434 confusing when some of these Hebrew names 147 00:06:41,434 --> 00:06:43,966 get really long And I really like that So 148 00:06:43,966 --> 00:06:48,222 I have Jesus.I do not a Jesus And one of 149 00:06:48,222 --> 00:06:50,542 the ones that is really clear on this is 150 00:06:50,542 --> 00:06:54,798 the name for the person who wrote what we 151 00:06:54,798 --> 00:06:58,194 call the letter of James His name is 152 00:06:58,194 --> 00:07:00,562 Yakobos or Jacob and we translate it 153 00:07:00,562 --> 00:07:02,660 asking me because it comes through Old 154 00:07:02,660 --> 00:07:06,022 French and Old English into Yakimas So I 155 00:07:06,022 --> 00:07:10,534 think there's capacity big difference 156 00:07:10,534 --> 00:07:14,920 between calling someone Jacob and calling 157 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,620 someone James Jacob evokes equivalents 158 00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:22,442 patriarch.So that one right there is one 159 00:07:22,442 --> 00:07:25,546 that really made a big difference for me 160 00:07:25,546 --> 00:07:29,514 And so I transliterate all names first 161 00:07:29,514 --> 00:07:32,334 names We don't have last names of course 162 00:07:32,334 --> 00:07:35,082 and it just shows up Petros Not Peter.Yuda 163 00:07:35,082 --> 00:07:39,742 not Judas And all the things start showing 164 00:07:39,742 --> 00:07:43,470 up in different ways And that was just one 165 00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:45,926 illustration of trying to stick with the 166 00:07:45,926 --> 00:07:49,154 original text But my translation is sort 167 00:07:49,154 --> 00:07:51,886 of clunky because it's formally equivalent 168 00:07:51,886 --> 00:07:56,022 It doesn't sound like English at times and 169 00:07:56,022 --> 00:08:00,294 it will make people slow down and they'll 170 00:08:00,294 --> 00:08:02,182 get a little irritated.And when they get 171 00:08:02,182 --> 00:08:06,182 irritated I am very happy because I've 172 00:08:06,182 --> 00:08:08,842 slowed them down and made them think about 173 00:08:08,842 --> 00:08:12,474 what the New Testament a says rather than 174 00:08:12,474 --> 00:08:17,530 what they're familiar with Yes I just felt 175 00:08:17,530 --> 00:08:21,386 it very differently I haven't read it all 176 00:08:21,386 --> 00:08:24,122 yet but the parts that I've read so far 177 00:08:24,122 --> 00:08:27,920 that's what immediately struck me was it 178 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:35,406 takes us back to a time and a place that 179 00:08:35,406 --> 00:08:39,154 feels foreign and distant And it should 180 00:08:39,154 --> 00:08:40,946 because if it feels like Jacob is our next 181 00:08:40,946 --> 00:08:43,362 door neighbor and he has a suburban house 182 00:08:43,362 --> 00:08:46,338 in the suburbs of Chicago and he's white 183 00:08:46,338 --> 00:08:48,486 and sometimes in white evangelical spaces 184 00:08:48,486 --> 00:08:49,926 it does seem as though it's become so 185 00:08:49,926 --> 00:08:50,998 familiar We have so many English 186 00:08:50,998 --> 00:08:52,646 translations.We have books that have 187 00:08:52,646 --> 00:08:55,762 covers on them that make it look like 188 00:08:55,762 --> 00:09:00,486 people who we would interact with now in 189 00:09:00,486 --> 00:09:04,938 this time and space in English And so 190 00:09:04,938 --> 00:09:06,794 there is something just alone about 191 00:09:06,794 --> 00:09:09,986 keeping he name the way that it was that 192 00:09:09,986 --> 00:09:13,310 automatically I felt like my whole body 193 00:09:13,310 --> 00:09:15,806 kind of reacted to In attention. good way 194 00:09:15,806 --> 00:09:18,462 like wow it Feels the way it should feel 195 00:09:18,462 --> 00:09:23,522 In the sense that I need to dig than 196 00:09:23,522 --> 00:09:28,030 little deeper on more a exegesis to 197 00:09:28,030 --> 00:09:32,034 understand really what was going on as 198 00:09:32,034 --> 00:09:34,126 opposed to imagining this scene in my 199 00:09:34,126 --> 00:09:35,026 neighborhood.Right.Not Mary but Miriam or 200 00:09:35,026 --> 00:09:37,390 Maria Or Maria So it's different in the 201 00:09:37,390 --> 00:09:40,678 New Testament So it's when it gets to be 202 00:09:40,678 --> 00:09:43,366 geographical places that Golden a goes a 203 00:09:43,366 --> 00:09:45,862 little different than I do But by and a 204 00:09:45,862 --> 00:09:48,102 transliterating names was one of the 205 00:09:48,102 --> 00:09:50,078 characteristics.Lori one of the things 206 00:09:50,078 --> 00:09:52,342 with New Testament especially the Bible is 207 00:09:52,342 --> 00:09:55,658 we are so familiar with it that when 208 00:09:55,658 --> 00:09:57,146 something is unlike what we're familiar 209 00:09:57,146 --> 00:09:59,994 with we think it's wrong Or this a my 210 00:09:59,994 --> 00:10:02,998 experience in reading Golden Gay the first 211 00:10:02,998 --> 00:10:07,834 time I at times would say I feel like I've 212 00:10:07,834 --> 00:10:09,726 never read this verse in my life And I 213 00:10:09,726 --> 00:10:11,978 thought well I have I've got all my 214 00:10:11,978 --> 00:10:15,650 Bibles.And one time I went to one of my 215 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:17,646 Bibles and it was underlined you know the 216 00:10:17,646 --> 00:10:21,038 verse And I thought this one is not like 217 00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:24,814 John Golden gaze at all So it's that 218 00:10:24,814 --> 00:10:28,114 familiarity that I'm trying to crack into 219 00:10:28,114 --> 00:10:34,162 is to make the Bible a little bit more 220 00:10:34,162 --> 00:10:37,586 unfamiliar print order to fill out the 221 00:10:37,586 --> 00:10:38,898 meaning of what that text is actually 222 00:10:38,898 --> 00:10:42,186 saying Yeah So in your perspective how 223 00:10:42,186 --> 00:10:44,154 does this change how we read it Therefore 224 00:10:44,154 --> 00:10:46,922 as we have these names that sound not like 225 00:10:46,922 --> 00:10:50,154 our next door neighbor how would that 226 00:10:50,154 --> 00:10:53,694 cause us to read it differently Well I 227 00:10:53,694 --> 00:10:55,486 think in academic sense you've helped us 228 00:10:55,486 --> 00:10:58,126 answer that question We're going to say oh 229 00:10:58,126 --> 00:11:02,446 that guy is not English He's a Jew with 230 00:11:02,446 --> 00:11:03,902 said, Greek translation of his name or 231 00:11:03,902 --> 00:11:06,318 something like that Yaakovos.And it's 232 00:11:06,318 --> 00:11:10,110 going to make us think of that We're going 233 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:13,426 to go back into that cultural mindset And 234 00:11:13,426 --> 00:11:14,386 because I don't use English grammar all 235 00:11:14,386 --> 00:11:16,146 the time but I let the Greek text and 236 00:11:16,146 --> 00:11:18,246 sometimes be a chunky and clunky as it is 237 00:11:18,246 --> 00:11:20,502 rather than smooth it out because after 238 00:11:20,502 --> 00:11:21,686 all someone might not understand something 239 00:11:21,686 --> 00:11:24,662 Well I would like you to come to my Greek 240 00:11:24,662 --> 00:11:27,974 classes when I teach Greek because the 241 00:11:27,974 --> 00:11:31,434 students a going I don't understand a 242 00:11:31,434 --> 00:11:34,074 going on with you That's the way they 243 00:11:34,074 --> 00:11:40,466 should feel.It's going to slow us down and 244 00:11:40,466 --> 00:11:47,470 it's going to take us into another world 245 00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:51,150 which is the first century Christian world 246 00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:56,478 and we're going to hear the text in a 247 00:11:56,478 --> 00:11:59,346 slightly different way Yeah And this is 248 00:11:59,346 --> 00:12:03,106 good for us because when it comes to 249 00:12:03,106 --> 00:12:04,706 verses that get put on BOOKMARKS and 250 00:12:04,706 --> 00:12:07,826 cherry picked and taken out of context so 251 00:12:07,826 --> 00:12:10,594 often in our white evangelical world here 252 00:12:10,594 --> 00:12:12,354 especially it doesn't help us understand 253 00:12:12,354 --> 00:12:15,942 more deeply what was going on So the whole 254 00:12:15,942 --> 00:12:17,974 conversation I guess around woman pastors 255 00:12:17,974 --> 00:12:20,426 for example would be a great example of 256 00:12:20,426 --> 00:12:25,260 this because I remember back when I was in 257 00:12:25,260 --> 00:12:27,354 seminary here in Northern California in 258 00:12:27,354 --> 00:12:29,562 Mill Valley it was Golden Gate Seminary at 259 00:12:29,562 --> 00:12:35,054 the time in the late ninety translate one 260 00:12:35,054 --> 00:12:36,894 of the theology professors whenever people 261 00:12:36,894 --> 00:12:41,006 would ask him do you believe in women 262 00:12:41,006 --> 00:12:43,778 pastors He would often say well show me 263 00:12:43,778 --> 00:12:48,226 where there's and pastor in the Bible with 264 00:12:48,226 --> 00:12:51,394 a title.So he would pose another question 265 00:12:51,394 --> 00:12:54,546 which is often what Jesus would do as well 266 00:12:54,546 --> 00:13:01,718 around a lot of questions he was given but 267 00:13:01,718 --> 00:13:03,174 also he would help people understand 268 00:13:03,174 --> 00:13:07,634 imagine the scene These are house churches 269 00:13:07,634 --> 00:13:11,674 These are churches meeting under 270 00:13:11,674 --> 00:13:13,146 persecution It's not First Baptist over 271 00:13:13,146 --> 00:13:16,202 here on the corner where there's pews and 272 00:13:16,202 --> 00:13:19,386 there's illustration pulpit This was not 273 00:13:19,386 --> 00:13:22,986 the scene.And so it had to lead you to a 274 00:13:22,986 --> 00:13:25,982 place where you asked other questions And 275 00:13:25,982 --> 00:13:28,974 I think that's often what people don't do 276 00:13:28,974 --> 00:13:31,962 When people ask you about like woman a for 277 00:13:31,962 --> 00:13:34,402 example that's a big controversy right now 278 00:13:34,402 --> 00:13:37,006 in the Southern Baptist Convention 279 00:13:37,006 --> 00:13:38,802 Saddleback has been kicked out over it 280 00:13:38,802 --> 00:13:42,260 It's what big deal.How do you answer that 281 00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:47,414 question about women pastors Well I think 282 00:13:47,414 --> 00:13:49,218 whoever your seminary professor was was 283 00:13:49,218 --> 00:13:50,838 right in some sense by saying the New 284 00:13:50,838 --> 00:13:52,646 Testament doesn't really call these people 285 00:13:52,646 --> 00:13:56,038 pastors You could say that there's takes 286 00:13:56,038 --> 00:13:58,326 pastoring function but they had different 287 00:13:58,326 --> 00:14:02,682 if you want to use titles they had it like 288 00:14:02,682 --> 00:14:06,906 Piscopos or we would translate bishop or 289 00:14:06,906 --> 00:14:09,574 Overseer and Diaconos which would be has a 290 00:14:09,574 --> 00:14:11,898 or a servant They had presbytur and 291 00:14:11,898 --> 00:14:17,482 Presbutaros which is and elder So they had 292 00:14:17,482 --> 00:14:19,470 names like that that they were using.And 293 00:14:19,470 --> 00:14:22,314 we so have clear cases of women 294 00:14:22,314 --> 00:14:24,462 functionally performing ministries that 295 00:14:24,462 --> 00:14:27,234 today we would have to call pastoring And 296 00:14:27,234 --> 00:14:31,566 here's something I was thinking of this 297 00:14:31,566 --> 00:14:33,954 yesterday Chris and I were taking and walk 298 00:14:33,954 --> 00:14:36,414 around the lake and I was thinking what 299 00:14:36,414 --> 00:14:38,774 what is Lori going to ask me about And I 300 00:14:38,774 --> 00:14:41,286 thought she might ask me about women in 301 00:14:41,286 --> 00:14:42,534 ministry.And I thought to. myself if 302 00:14:42,534 --> 00:14:46,454 someone just picked up romans chapter 16 303 00:14:46,454 --> 00:14:48,554 in the NIV or the whatever translation 304 00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:52,294 they use and I said to them I want you to 305 00:14:52,294 --> 00:14:54,266 circle If you write in your bible circle 306 00:14:54,266 --> 00:14:57,622 every name of imagining woman And I'd like 307 00:14:57,622 --> 00:15:04,810 to see how many of them you can actually 308 00:15:04,810 --> 00:15:07,290 get Right Because there's quite a few 309 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:09,182 women mentioned in Romans 16 But because 310 00:15:09,182 --> 00:15:12,522 we don't know these names We don't even 311 00:15:12,522 --> 00:15:14,194 know different they're women or men We 312 00:15:14,194 --> 00:15:19,890 just gloss over them But about half the 313 00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:24,114 name not quite half the names in Romans 16 314 00:15:24,114 --> 00:15:27,174 are women And all kinds of things are 315 00:15:27,174 --> 00:15:30,434 mentioned about these women that they're 316 00:15:30,434 --> 00:15:32,086 doing in church ministry including being 317 00:15:32,086 --> 00:15:36,870 an apostle and being a deacon.Phoebe's a 318 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:39,542 deacon and Junia not Junius Junia is an 319 00:15:39,542 --> 00:15:41,686 apostle and there are people who are 320 00:15:41,686 --> 00:15:43,900 risking their lives for the sake of Paul 321 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,438 and his ministry and he's affirming all 322 00:15:46,438 --> 00:15:48,218 these women involved When you all of a 323 00:15:48,218 --> 00:15:49,626 sudden recognize that this is quite a 324 00:15:49,626 --> 00:15:51,838 mixed group of slaves and free of men and 325 00:15:51,838 --> 00:15:53,294 women of Jews and Gentiles you realize 326 00:15:53,294 --> 00:15:56,062 that this church was the embodiment of 327 00:15:56,062 --> 00:15:58,142 that multicultural multiethnic maybe 328 00:15:58,142 --> 00:16:01,614 multiracial depending how you define the 329 00:16:01,614 --> 00:16:04,270 word race multiracial church And there are 330 00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:07,026 all in of women there But that Phoebe 331 00:16:07,026 --> 00:16:10,162 thing is really interesting to me is 332 00:16:10,162 --> 00:16:12,514 Phoebe is a wealthy woman.Paul uses the 333 00:16:12,514 --> 00:16:14,866 word prostatus for her which sort of as 334 00:16:14,866 --> 00:16:17,198 the idea of it could be a benefactor but 335 00:16:17,198 --> 00:16:18,998 it also could be a leader And she is read 336 00:16:18,998 --> 00:16:21,986 deacon in the church of Kencria which is 337 00:16:21,986 --> 00:16:25,414 next to Corinth and she's in the location 338 00:16:25,414 --> 00:16:29,846 in say, letter where you often list or 339 00:16:29,846 --> 00:16:33,306 mention the person who is carrying and 340 00:16:33,306 --> 00:16:38,282 taking care of this letter to get from 341 00:16:38,282 --> 00:16:40,286 Kencria Paul's hands to whoever is going 342 00:16:40,286 --> 00:16:42,714 to read it going Rome she's the woman That 343 00:16:42,714 --> 00:16:46,046 person would also have been instructed 344 00:16:46,046 --> 00:16:50,014 along with others how to read the letter 345 00:16:50,014 --> 00:16:53,022 what words to emphasize in what context 346 00:16:53,022 --> 00:16:56,850 she would have been taught how to respond 347 00:16:56,850 --> 00:17:00,514 to the question She had to know a lot of 348 00:17:00,514 --> 00:17:03,346 what Paul was doing and thinking in order 349 00:17:03,346 --> 00:17:04,962 to read this letter aloud in those 350 00:17:04,962 --> 00:17:06,638 churches at least five house churches 351 00:17:06,638 --> 00:17:08,646 going, Romans 16 understand be able to 352 00:17:08,646 --> 00:17:10,760 respond to questions that people are going 353 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,926 to ask And you can't read Romans in the 354 00:17:15,926 --> 00:17:18,554 first century without a bunch of questions 355 00:17:18,554 --> 00:17:21,754 being popped.And she and whoever she 356 00:17:21,754 --> 00:17:25,226 trained now maybe she didn't read it I in 357 00:17:25,226 --> 00:17:29,114 she probably did but it doesn't matter 358 00:17:29,114 --> 00:17:34,046 I've got it in print now so I have to 359 00:17:34,046 --> 00:17:37,326 believe that she was the reader but she 360 00:17:37,326 --> 00:17:40,206 would have been perceived as far more than 361 00:17:40,206 --> 00:17:45,374 a servant of Paul She was an agent of the 362 00:17:45,374 --> 00:17:47,858 Gospel and an agent of this letter the 363 00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:50,062 most significant letter that Paul wrote in 364 00:17:50,062 --> 00:17:51,762 the history of the church a is an apostle 365 00:17:51,762 --> 00:17:53,458 and some people were so uncomfortable with 366 00:17:53,458 --> 00:17:56,834 her in an apostle that they changed her 367 00:17:56,834 --> 00:17:59,110 name from Junia to Junius to make her a 368 00:17:59,110 --> 00:18:00,806 man.And there is no record in the first 369 00:18:00,806 --> 00:18:03,318 century of any man being named Junius So 370 00:18:03,318 --> 00:18:06,598 as a pacifist I often say it's okay to 371 00:18:06,598 --> 00:18:08,594 kill a nonexistent male Junius It's not 372 00:18:08,594 --> 00:18:10,838 going to hurt anyone and we've slayed him 373 00:18:10,838 --> 00:18:14,246 And now we realize that this is a woman 374 00:18:14,246 --> 00:18:15,786 who was an apostle of significance in the 375 00:18:15,786 --> 00:18:17,978 early church he was a church planting 376 00:18:17,978 --> 00:18:20,022 leader in the Pauline Mission and was 377 00:18:20,022 --> 00:18:22,310 probably sent ahead of Paul with her 378 00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:25,262 husband andronygus to plant churches.So I 379 00:18:25,262 --> 00:18:27,866 deal with these texts quite a bit at 380 00:18:27,866 --> 00:18:29,646 Northern and I think a there's good 381 00:18:29,646 --> 00:18:31,246 evidence that women actively engaged in 382 00:18:31,246 --> 00:18:33,166 ministry in the first century My a Nijay 383 00:18:33,166 --> 00:18:35,338 Gupta has asked new book Tell Her Story 384 00:18:35,338 --> 00:18:37,786 but he also thinks that Nympha in Colossey 385 00:18:37,786 --> 00:18:40,402 was a pastor Now we can't prove that but I 386 00:18:40,402 --> 00:18:42,094 told him I like the conclusion and 387 00:18:42,094 --> 00:18:43,426 translations make Saddleback difference 388 00:18:43,426 --> 00:18:44,514 here So if you translate that Junius 389 00:18:44,514 --> 00:18:47,254 you've just turned a woman into that man 390 00:18:47,254 --> 00:18:52,374 Absolutely yes.And when we had Nijay on 391 00:18:52,374 --> 00:18:55,430 the podcast he mentioned was lot of those 392 00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:57,962 things talking about his latest book Tell 393 00:18:57,962 --> 00:19:03,306 Her Story And I think that you've said 394 00:19:03,306 --> 00:19:07,194 this before a many people are saying this 395 00:19:07,194 --> 00:19:08,954 You know these aren't new things You know 396 00:19:08,954 --> 00:19:12,154 we as long as we're digging and 397 00:19:12,154 --> 00:19:14,174 understanding and reading different 398 00:19:14,174 --> 00:19:15,902 perspectives different theologians maybe 399 00:19:15,902 --> 00:19:22,782 who if you only a English fine you can 400 00:19:22,782 --> 00:19:25,886 still find English translations of 401 00:19:25,886 --> 00:19:27,986 theologians who aren't native English 402 00:19:27,986 --> 00:19:29,460 speakers We just need different 403 00:19:29,460 --> 00:19:35,002 perspectives to help us understand because 404 00:19:35,002 --> 00:19:41,560 language matters and the way we translate 405 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,542 things matter.And obviously no theologian 406 00:19:43,542 --> 00:19:49,126 worth their salt would claim that Junia is 407 00:19:49,126 --> 00:19:50,758 a male at this point like that's been 408 00:19:50,758 --> 00:19:52,566 debunked heavily and yet somehow people 409 00:19:52,566 --> 00:19:54,058 are still uncomfortable But all of this 410 00:19:54,058 --> 00:19:55,466 does matter because it forms how we see 411 00:19:55,466 --> 00:19:57,398 things And translating that Phoebe was a 412 00:19:57,398 --> 00:20:01,774 servant as opposed to deacon that's like a 413 00:20:01,774 --> 00:20:05,086 choice that people make in translation All 414 00:20:05,086 --> 00:20:10,000 of those things form our thoughts But 415 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,634 you've not only dealt with that in terms 416 00:20:12,634 --> 00:20:15,982 of translation of the Bible in a church 417 00:20:15,982 --> 00:20:21,406 called Tove which is what you and Laura 418 00:20:21,406 --> 00:20:23,122 were on the last time we were on the 419 00:20:23,122 --> 00:20:27,126 podcast together.It's how words are formed 420 00:20:27,126 --> 00:20:29,702 in a church culture to in of flip the 421 00:20:29,702 --> 00:20:33,254 script or create false narratives how 422 00:20:33,254 --> 00:20:34,774 words matter in our faith spaces And 423 00:20:34,774 --> 00:20:37,814 congratulations I think you're in the 424 00:20:37,814 --> 00:20:39,834 third printing Did I just see Laura post 425 00:20:39,834 --> 00:20:42,762 something about that Yeah we are in the 426 00:20:42,762 --> 00:20:43,994 third printing.Yeah.When Laura pestered me 427 00:20:43,994 --> 00:20:47,702 to write this book and I said I'm not a 428 00:20:47,702 --> 00:20:51,026 specialist on this an I don't want to 429 00:20:51,026 --> 00:20:56,122 become someone a people go to for this 430 00:20:56,122 --> 00:20:58,846 kind of topic because I I'm are New 431 00:20:58,846 --> 00:21:00,318 Testament professor you know Well 178 432 00:21:00,318 --> 00:21:03,006 podcasts later I'm I'm now consulted on on 433 00:21:03,006 --> 00:21:06,738 church culture and we have a second book 434 00:21:06,738 --> 00:21:09,282 coming out in September called Pivot that 435 00:21:09,282 --> 00:21:11,906 is about helping churches But yes words 436 00:21:11,906 --> 00:21:15,226 deeply matter and you nailed it with 437 00:21:15,226 --> 00:21:19,974 flipping the script Is that when you and I 438 00:21:19,974 --> 00:21:26,146 know what darvo a I'm surprised by the 439 00:21:26,146 --> 00:21:29,206 number of people who don't know what darvo 440 00:21:29,206 --> 00:21:31,626 means after as often as we deal with this 441 00:21:31,626 --> 00:21:34,026 perpetrators of abuse have an amazing 442 00:21:34,026 --> 00:21:38,662 capacity to turn the story around a make 443 00:21:38,662 --> 00:21:41,918 themselves Paul victim of the person that 444 00:21:41,918 --> 00:21:45,406 they victimized and turn the victim into a 445 00:21:45,406 --> 00:21:46,606 perpetrator of violence a the 446 00:21:46,606 --> 00:21:49,280 perpetrator.I think I'd have to slow down 447 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,486 to say that a but words really do matter 448 00:21:53,486 --> 00:21:59,986 and those words can wound and they can 449 00:21:59,986 --> 00:22:02,420 hurt for location long time When you start 450 00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:05,362 publicly degrading another person's status 451 00:22:05,362 --> 00:22:07,986 and gifts and personhood it really hurts 452 00:22:07,986 --> 00:22:11,974 And that's why words matter And we need to 453 00:22:11,974 --> 00:22:14,450 be careful with the words we use for 454 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:18,282 translations because if we don't get it 455 00:22:18,282 --> 00:22:22,106 right it can hurt people Yeah.Last June I 456 00:22:22,106 --> 00:22:26,170 mean it was really just maybe a week or 457 00:22:26,170 --> 00:22:31,066 what few days after the announcement came 458 00:22:31,066 --> 00:22:33,134 out that Andy Wood was taking over for 459 00:22:33,134 --> 00:22:34,974 Rick Warren a Saddleback Church And my 460 00:22:34,974 --> 00:22:37,982 husband and I have spoken out publicly 461 00:22:37,982 --> 00:22:41,534 about that abuse and some of it the last 462 00:22:41,534 --> 00:22:45,074 time we recorded together actually I was 463 00:22:45,074 --> 00:22:47,186 still working at Echo Church but didn't 464 00:22:47,186 --> 00:22:49,838 know it was within Days of being fired And 465 00:22:49,838 --> 00:22:52,146 the day your podcast released was the day 466 00:22:52,146 --> 00:22:56,718 I was fired which is kind of weird Not 467 00:22:56,718 --> 00:22:58,486 weird actually I don't want to use the 468 00:22:58,486 --> 00:23:01,778 word weird.I feel like God was using that 469 00:23:01,778 --> 00:23:04,086 as a sign in a lot of ways to help me 470 00:23:04,086 --> 00:23:08,586 understand He had walked before me And 471 00:23:08,586 --> 00:23:11,866 your book really opened my eyes and gave 472 00:23:11,866 --> 00:23:14,986 me language to understand what at the time 473 00:23:14,986 --> 00:23:17,114 felt weird or confusing but helped me 474 00:23:17,114 --> 00:23:20,586 understand what somehow I knew in my body 475 00:23:20,586 --> 00:23:24,926 before my brain was ready to admit it or 476 00:23:24,926 --> 00:23:30,174 my mouth was able to say the words was 477 00:23:30,174 --> 00:23:32,510 that there was apostle, lot of abuse of 478 00:23:32,510 --> 00:23:36,514 power going on And so my husband and I as 479 00:23:36,514 --> 00:23:38,114 we were touring around Scotland for our 480 00:23:38,114 --> 00:23:39,966 25th wedding anniversary which just within 481 00:23:39,966 --> 00:23:45,070 days of this announcement a we went to 482 00:23:45,070 --> 00:23:49,922 Church of the Holy Root up in Sterling 483 00:23:49,922 --> 00:23:52,934 where King James had his coronation I 484 00:23:52,934 --> 00:23:56,086 guess he was like ten months old when he 485 00:23:56,086 --> 00:24:00,186 had is a as a baby.But they have under the 486 00:24:00,186 --> 00:24:03,878 case the have a King James Bible and the 487 00:24:03,878 --> 00:24:06,922 ladies that give the tour told us his 488 00:24:06,922 --> 00:24:10,574 mother Mary Queen of Scots was not allowed 489 00:24:10,574 --> 00:24:15,306 to be there So I already thinking mommy 490 00:24:15,306 --> 00:24:19,086 issues and poor baby right But also when 491 00:24:19,086 --> 00:24:22,906 he chose to translate I mean I'd already 492 00:24:22,906 --> 00:24:26,094 read Dr Beth Allison Burr's book Making a 493 00:24:26,094 --> 00:24:27,714 Biblical Womanhood.I've read quite a bit 494 00:24:27,714 --> 00:24:30,814 about this over the years he ways that he 495 00:24:30,814 --> 00:24:34,706 chose to translate certain words even in 496 00:24:34,706 --> 00:24:36,246 Genesis I know that, your translation is 497 00:24:36,246 --> 00:24:42,886 in the New Testament that we're talking 498 00:24:42,886 --> 00:24:45,334 about but even words in Genesis that were 499 00:24:45,334 --> 00:24:48,794 chosen about women and Ezra connecto being 500 00:24:48,794 --> 00:24:54,998 translated like what is a help me I don't 501 00:24:54,998 --> 00:24:57,146 even know what that means But there's 502 00:24:57,146 --> 00:24:59,114 these words right A piece of meat.I don't 503 00:24:59,114 --> 00:25:03,066 know But there's words that have done harm 504 00:25:03,066 --> 00:25:05,374 to women and men over the years Because of 505 00:25:05,374 --> 00:25:07,838 the ways that words were chosen And I 506 00:25:07,838 --> 00:25:10,414 think that it was very obvious to me with 507 00:25:10,414 --> 00:25:15,346 all the power dynamics of that church and 508 00:25:15,346 --> 00:25:18,482 all that it meant for a king to be 509 00:25:18,482 --> 00:25:20,466 involved in translations translation of 510 00:25:20,466 --> 00:25:23,502 the Bible and choices he made to keep his 511 00:25:23,502 --> 00:25:26,638 subject subdued How do you feel like the 512 00:25:26,638 --> 00:25:28,950 role of power dynamics needs to be 513 00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:32,066 addressed better in our conversations in 514 00:25:32,066 --> 00:25:34,326 church in general Well yes Now when you 515 00:25:34,326 --> 00:25:37,286 were talking about pyro dynamics I got to 516 00:25:37,286 --> 00:25:40,930 thinking there's a Greek word in the New 517 00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:42,486 Testament Andrea And if I would have 518 00:25:42,486 --> 00:25:44,170 followed my theory totally consistently 519 00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:48,566 which I did I never felt I had to but I 520 00:25:48,566 --> 00:25:51,626 wanted to try as much as possible I would 521 00:25:51,626 --> 00:25:54,382 have translated this word manly feel manly 522 00:25:54,382 --> 00:25:55,902 But most translations have the word 523 00:25:55,902 --> 00:25:57,326 courage.And Beth Alzembar actually wrote 524 00:25:57,326 --> 00:26:01,166 me She said Scott I think you're the only 525 00:26:01,166 --> 00:26:02,926 translator of the New Testament who could 526 00:26:02,926 --> 00:26:04,770 get by with using the word manly there 527 00:26:04,770 --> 00:26:07,346 because everybody would know you don't 528 00:26:07,346 --> 00:26:09,266 mean a they think it means But what 529 00:26:09,266 --> 00:26:12,370 happens if you do translate that as manly 530 00:26:12,370 --> 00:26:16,098 is that it becomes that men are the ones 531 00:26:16,098 --> 00:26:17,906 who have courage and can act manly So a 532 00:26:17,906 --> 00:26:19,734 man becomes the paradigm for the virtue 533 00:26:19,734 --> 00:26:26,258 and women have to succumb to the manliness 534 00:26:26,258 --> 00:26:29,414 of being manly So that right there 535 00:26:29,414 --> 00:26:32,762 illustrates the issue is a power is in the 536 00:26:32,762 --> 00:26:36,602 hands in the United States of men who are 537 00:26:36,602 --> 00:26:38,954 white who are educated tall and handsome 538 00:26:38,954 --> 00:26:44,902 and have a heritage of being able to be in 539 00:26:44,902 --> 00:26:50,266 the groups that are going to make the 540 00:26:50,266 --> 00:26:51,854 decisions.I'm reading Josephus right now a 541 00:26:51,854 --> 00:26:55,074 all of Herod's kids are in the right 542 00:26:55,074 --> 00:26:57,780 family except that Herod is a murderous 543 00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:03,726 father So they're not in the right family 544 00:27:03,726 --> 00:27:08,806 but if you're in the right family So I 545 00:27:08,806 --> 00:27:11,206 believe that power has been culturally 546 00:27:11,206 --> 00:27:12,386 scripted in evangelical churches to favor 547 00:27:12,386 --> 00:27:15,286 men and to favor certain kinds of behavior 548 00:27:15,286 --> 00:27:19,722 that I don't believe are necessarily 549 00:27:19,722 --> 00:27:24,586 manish but have become manish So I'll try 550 00:27:24,586 --> 00:27:29,978 to get out of that circle a little bit and 551 00:27:29,978 --> 00:27:34,494 I think that we can reduce this to four 552 00:27:34,494 --> 00:27:38,110 prepositions about the power dynamic In 553 00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:39,966 perpetrator. church the most dangerous 554 00:27:39,966 --> 00:27:46,386 form of power is power over which is 555 00:27:46,386 --> 00:27:48,626 connected to the idea of domination.And 556 00:27:48,626 --> 00:27:51,074 this is when someone says to you I'm going 557 00:27:51,074 --> 00:27:57,602 to do this because I can and because I 558 00:27:57,602 --> 00:28:03,622 want to and I don't care what it does to 559 00:28:03,622 --> 00:28:06,614 your life And a lot of church leaders do 560 00:28:06,614 --> 00:28:10,266 this when they're put on the spot or when 561 00:28:10,266 --> 00:28:11,706 they're exposed for having done something 562 00:28:11,706 --> 00:28:19,066 wrong rather than the humility to listen 563 00:28:19,066 --> 00:28:21,678 So the power over is the most corrupted or 564 00:28:21,678 --> 00:28:25,226 of power and it is everywhere in the Roman 565 00:28:25,226 --> 00:28:27,806 Empire in the first century And it is 566 00:28:27,806 --> 00:28:30,766 almost everywhere in sports it is almost 567 00:28:30,766 --> 00:28:33,802 everywhere in the business world and there 568 00:28:33,802 --> 00:28:36,974 is way too much of it in the we over a 569 00:28:36,974 --> 00:28:38,446 second characteristic And this is sort of 570 00:28:38,446 --> 00:28:40,322 the neutral understanding of power and 571 00:28:40,322 --> 00:28:42,462 that is the power to influence So it's the 572 00:28:42,462 --> 00:28:44,466 power two instead of power over it's power 573 00:28:44,466 --> 00:28:47,458 two And I have the power right now to turn 574 00:28:47,458 --> 00:28:48,882 off my computer I can do that if I 575 00:28:48,882 --> 00:28:51,158 want.And you have the power to silence me 576 00:28:51,158 --> 00:28:53,826 a to edit this thing so that what I say 577 00:28:53,826 --> 00:28:55,506 can before silenced That's the power to 578 00:28:55,506 --> 00:28:57,686 influence And we all have this in our 579 00:28:57,686 --> 00:28:59,594 families we have this in our neighborhoods 580 00:28:59,594 --> 00:29:05,514 in our churches I have this as a teacher I 581 00:29:05,514 --> 00:29:07,878 have the power to grade A student in a 582 00:29:07,878 --> 00:29:09,306 retaliatory way.I have the power to do 583 00:29:09,306 --> 00:29:11,178 that But I also have the power to 584 00:29:11,178 --> 00:29:13,514 influence students And if I begin to think 585 00:29:13,514 --> 00:29:16,222 in terms of influence it shifts me away 586 00:29:16,222 --> 00:29:18,730 from power over to power to do something 587 00:29:18,730 --> 00:29:20,474 constructive and positive Now I think it 588 00:29:20,474 --> 00:29:23,274 starts to get to be a radical move in 589 00:29:23,274 --> 00:29:26,378 Christianity when the third kind of power 590 00:29:26,378 --> 00:29:27,954 shows up The power with which is the 591 00:29:27,954 --> 00:29:29,826 ability or the willingness on the part of 592 00:29:29,826 --> 00:29:32,866 someone with power to share power with 593 00:29:32,866 --> 00:29:35,154 someone else to work with them in order 594 00:29:35,154 --> 00:29:37,398 that the can come up with a mutually 595 00:29:37,398 --> 00:29:39,126 agreeable product or result or platform or 596 00:29:39,126 --> 00:29:41,254 speech or book.And when I wrote the book 597 00:29:41,254 --> 00:29:44,774 on Revelation with Cody Matchett we work 598 00:29:44,774 --> 00:29:46,306 together and sometimes he'd write 599 00:29:46,306 --> 00:29:47,974 something and I'd think okay that's Cody's 600 00:29:47,974 --> 00:29:50,658 Mind and he's a co author He gets to say 601 00:29:50,658 --> 00:29:51,898 things like this And I wouldn't say it 602 00:29:51,898 --> 00:29:55,402 quite the same ways but I also say things 603 00:29:55,402 --> 00:29:58,826 that he wouldn't say Now the power there 604 00:29:58,826 --> 00:30:00,246 was asymmetrical because well I'm almost 605 00:30:00,246 --> 00:30:01,818 70 and he's probably about, 30 or 606 00:30:01,818 --> 00:30:04,766 something like that or 35 and he doesn't 607 00:30:04,766 --> 00:30:07,694 have Ezra PhD And he doesn't have a job 608 00:30:07,694 --> 00:30:09,342 like that of a professor but he's that 609 00:30:09,342 --> 00:30:11,758 very talented young man.So that's the 610 00:30:11,758 --> 00:30:14,014 power with And I think there's a lot of 611 00:30:14,014 --> 00:30:16,754 power with where Paul calls so many people 612 00:30:16,754 --> 00:30:18,754 his coworkers and the Greek word sun ergos 613 00:30:18,754 --> 00:30:21,346 that words sun at the beginning is this it 614 00:30:21,346 --> 00:30:23,698 He worked with Paul They worked with Paul 615 00:30:23,698 --> 00:30:27,218 They weren't under Paul they worked with 616 00:30:27,218 --> 00:30:28,838 him.Now he seemed to be the boss in some 617 00:30:28,838 --> 00:30:31,334 ways but that is a really dynamic word in 618 00:30:31,334 --> 00:30:34,006 Paul And the final one is power four So 619 00:30:34,006 --> 00:30:37,738 power over power two power with and power 620 00:30:37,738 --> 00:30:42,140 four And that is to use our power for the 621 00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:47,834 good of someone else Jesus said that he 622 00:30:47,834 --> 00:30:52,574 did not come to be served but to serve and 623 00:30:52,574 --> 00:30:57,294 to give his life Testament, ransom for 624 00:30:57,294 --> 00:31:01,630 many.It is when we take our platforms our 625 00:31:01,630 --> 00:31:03,886 power our circumscribed authority and hand 626 00:31:03,886 --> 00:31:05,506 it over to someone else to use for their 627 00:31:05,506 --> 00:31:08,034 giftedness and for what they can bring to 628 00:31:08,034 --> 00:31:13,230 the discussion or that they can contribute 629 00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:17,054 That's where the power dynamic in churches 630 00:31:17,054 --> 00:31:18,546 needs to start Moving away from power over 631 00:31:18,546 --> 00:31:20,610 and away from the neutral sense of power 632 00:31:20,610 --> 00:31:22,326 too toward a more Christian sense of 633 00:31:22,326 --> 00:31:25,126 sharing power and using our power The good 634 00:31:25,126 --> 00:31:27,834 of other people Yes if you're a leader of 635 00:31:27,834 --> 00:31:29,686 what you have responsibility.You have 636 00:31:29,686 --> 00:31:32,154 responsibility to make decisions and not 637 00:31:32,154 --> 00:31:36,026 everybody's going to agree with that And 638 00:31:36,026 --> 00:31:38,666 we don't always have to share the decision 639 00:31:38,666 --> 00:31:41,566 time Sometimes that I'm paradigm professor 640 00:31:41,566 --> 00:31:47,150 and I have to make a decision about the 641 00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:53,906 this student is going to get this grade or 642 00:31:53,906 --> 00:31:57,106 that grade And I don't call the student in 643 00:31:57,106 --> 00:32:02,722 to say now what grade would you like to 644 00:32:02,722 --> 00:32:08,440 have It's not tall shared discussion.But 645 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,760 by and a Christians are so unattached to 646 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,438 power over that they favor sharing power 647 00:32:14,438 --> 00:32:17,766 and using the power for the good of 648 00:32:17,766 --> 00:32:21,594 another And that's where I think churches 649 00:32:21,594 --> 00:32:23,446 can really make family, change.Yeah the 650 00:32:23,446 --> 00:32:25,626 power of giving power away I mean that's 651 00:32:25,626 --> 00:32:28,058 in of Jesus in a nutshell If we could just 652 00:32:28,058 --> 00:32:33,530 summarize his life and what he was doing 653 00:32:33,530 --> 00:32:38,094 and understand the pattern of how he was 654 00:32:38,094 --> 00:32:40,302 interacting with women and people who were 655 00:32:40,302 --> 00:32:44,050 marginalized and being intentional in that 656 00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:47,826 way And I just want to say I've seen you 657 00:32:47,826 --> 00:32:51,554 do that I mean you had definitely done 658 00:32:51,554 --> 00:32:55,330 that with me You didn't know me from 659 00:32:55,330 --> 00:32:59,510 anyone else other than power had a a 660 00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:05,590 interview before but you walked with me 661 00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:07,766 behind the scenes emails back and forth 662 00:33:07,766 --> 00:33:12,234 and praying for me and my family when we 663 00:33:12,234 --> 00:33:13,722 went through a difficult time calling out 664 00:33:13,722 --> 00:33:16,506 spiritual abuse that we ourselves had 665 00:33:16,506 --> 00:33:18,666 faced at the and of a megachurch pastor 666 00:33:18,666 --> 00:33:22,398 who ended up a year later getting even 667 00:33:22,398 --> 00:33:24,814 more power over more people.And at this 668 00:33:24,814 --> 00:33:27,774 point we have so many mutual friends that 669 00:33:27,774 --> 00:33:30,446 have also walked through things and helped 670 00:33:30,446 --> 00:33:34,626 us But just thank you for using your power 671 00:33:34,626 --> 00:33:38,260 in this way And I know that recently 672 00:33:38,260 --> 00:33:41,794 there's been a lot going on at the 673 00:33:41,794 --> 00:33:47,510 Seminary too And just by being a professor 674 00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:50,998 there there's a lot of fallout when 675 00:33:50,998 --> 00:33:53,286 something as big as a president being 676 00:33:53,286 --> 00:33:55,974 asked to step down happens And so you're 677 00:33:55,974 --> 00:33:58,506 in a space where it's happening in real 678 00:33:58,506 --> 00:34:00,874 time.At your seminary you've walked 679 00:34:00,874 --> 00:34:02,378 through multiple situations and churches 680 00:34:02,378 --> 00:34:06,586 with Willow Creek and the you've had more 681 00:34:06,586 --> 00:34:10,986 than one round with this So for people who 682 00:34:10,986 --> 00:34:13,280 are listening what do you tell someone who 683 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,166 is either experiencing spiritual abuse or 684 00:34:15,166 --> 00:34:17,134 has someone they know that is experiencing 685 00:34:17,134 --> 00:34:19,886 it What is some of the first piece of 686 00:34:19,886 --> 00:34:25,098 advice you would give someone as they're 687 00:34:25,098 --> 00:34:28,066 just realizing that That's a lot.I learned 688 00:34:28,066 --> 00:34:29,666 something from Diane Langberg and I don't 689 00:34:29,666 --> 00:34:31,874 remember if it was in the conversation we 690 00:34:31,874 --> 00:34:34,402 had with her on the blog or on the podcast 691 00:34:34,402 --> 00:34:38,534 or just in a book but basically she said 692 00:34:38,534 --> 00:34:40,342 don't go public I'm going to summarize 693 00:34:40,342 --> 00:34:42,722 this Don't go public until you're 694 00:34:42,722 --> 00:34:45,238 influence a healthy enough place to take 695 00:34:45,238 --> 00:34:48,602 what happens when you do go public And 696 00:34:48,602 --> 00:34:52,214 when she said that I thought wow that is 697 00:34:52,214 --> 00:34:55,914 so true because Lori you've experienced 698 00:34:55,914 --> 00:34:57,500 this.I haven't experienced this really 699 00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:01,558 other a students don't like things that 700 00:35:01,558 --> 00:35:03,678 you say and people criticize you here and 701 00:35:03,678 --> 00:35:07,290 there on the Internet stuff I mean that's 702 00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:10,030 part of the game that I play But most 703 00:35:10,030 --> 00:35:13,026 people who call out spiritual abuse suffer 704 00:35:13,026 --> 00:35:16,114 more from the secondary trauma of people 705 00:35:16,114 --> 00:35:21,618 going after them a than they do from the 706 00:35:21,618 --> 00:35:26,100 initial trauma itself And this is 707 00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,886 something that Chris and I and Laura have 708 00:35:28,886 --> 00:35:32,120 advised people over and over and over 709 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,714 We're dealing right now with a young woman 710 00:35:35,714 --> 00:35:38,086 who has called out a a when she first 711 00:35:38,086 --> 00:35:41,126 wrote me I said well you need to 712 00:35:41,126 --> 00:35:42,810 understand what's going to happen when you 713 00:35:42,810 --> 00:35:45,770 go public with this is people are going to 714 00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:49,894 hate you You're going to lose your friends 715 00:35:49,894 --> 00:35:52,266 you could lose your job at the school 716 00:35:52,266 --> 00:35:54,986 where you are It's going to be difficult 717 00:35:54,986 --> 00:35:57,038 It's going to be very difficult So I would 718 00:35:57,038 --> 00:35:59,806 say first of all get yourself in a 719 00:35:59,806 --> 00:36:03,278 position of being healthy enough to 720 00:36:03,278 --> 00:36:05,682 realize that it's going to come at you in 721 00:36:05,682 --> 00:36:09,026 an even more ferocious way because you've 722 00:36:09,026 --> 00:36:12,226 gone public than because you originally 723 00:36:12,226 --> 00:36:14,930 went public.The second thing is surround 724 00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:16,374 yourself with friends who completely 725 00:36:16,374 --> 00:36:20,102 understand your story and who can be your 726 00:36:20,102 --> 00:36:23,046 advocates and guides as you go through 727 00:36:23,046 --> 00:36:24,758 these things because without that I don't 728 00:36:24,758 --> 00:36:26,310 think most people could survive the 729 00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:30,122 scrutiny and the intensity of the blowback 730 00:36:30,122 --> 00:36:35,098 And then this is something that I don't 731 00:36:35,098 --> 00:36:38,730 think all the traumatized people in the 732 00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:41,606 world would agree with But because I teach 733 00:36:41,606 --> 00:36:46,542 at a school I think I lean a little bit in 734 00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:48,382 this direction Follow the protocols or the 735 00:36:48,382 --> 00:36:50,046 guidelines of the school or your 736 00:36:50,046 --> 00:36:52,554 institution for let's say reporting abuse 737 00:36:52,554 --> 00:36:57,922 as much as possible The first thing to do 738 00:36:57,922 --> 00:37:02,722 is don't go to Twitter.People who go to 739 00:37:02,722 --> 00:37:05,878 Twitter first are going to jeopardize the 740 00:37:05,878 --> 00:37:08,486 situation more than they're actually going 741 00:37:08,486 --> 00:37:12,034 to help it But like if your school or your 742 00:37:12,034 --> 00:37:15,250 church has a whistleblower policy follow 743 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:18,774 it Now most don't most don't want this 744 00:37:18,774 --> 00:37:22,022 because it creates a sense of independent 745 00:37:22,022 --> 00:37:25,638 judgment that the people in power don't 746 00:37:25,638 --> 00:37:30,206 want But there could be a human resources 747 00:37:30,206 --> 00:37:33,246 department that you could report to There 748 00:37:33,246 --> 00:37:40,206 could be some kind of committee that you 749 00:37:40,206 --> 00:37:43,426 could report to but the closer they are to 750 00:37:43,426 --> 00:37:45,346 the people who are the perpetrators or the 751 00:37:45,346 --> 00:37:49,540 ones that you're concerned about it really 752 00:37:49,540 --> 00:37:52,642 jeopardizes honesty and truthfulness.So I 753 00:37:52,642 --> 00:37:55,202 would say follow the pattern And then I 754 00:37:55,202 --> 00:37:57,426 would say fourth you're going to have to 755 00:37:57,426 --> 00:38:00,806 develop a powerful sense of patience and 756 00:38:00,806 --> 00:38:02,054 resilience because it's not going to 757 00:38:02,054 --> 00:38:05,266 happen overnight and it's going to be one 758 00:38:05,266 --> 00:38:07,866 frustrating decision a another It can go 759 00:38:07,866 --> 00:38:14,540 on for years for so people to deal with 760 00:38:14,540 --> 00:38:18,954 these situations and you could lose your 761 00:38:18,954 --> 00:38:21,226 job you could lose your friends you could 762 00:38:21,226 --> 00:38:23,454 lose your church your school your 763 00:38:23,454 --> 00:38:29,822 workplace but I would say just don't go 764 00:38:29,822 --> 00:38:32,526 giving it thinking that I'm going to go in 765 00:38:32,526 --> 00:38:35,214 I'm going to tell this deacon and this 766 00:38:35,214 --> 00:38:37,994 deacon and I or this elder and I are going 767 00:38:37,994 --> 00:38:40,514 to go and talk to pastor We're going to 768 00:38:40,514 --> 00:38:42,206 confront the pastor.He's going to repent 769 00:38:42,206 --> 00:38:43,218 and change Okay In the first year that 770 00:38:43,218 --> 00:38:44,786 Laura and I've wrote our book church 771 00:38:44,786 --> 00:38:46,066 Called Tove we heard for 1516 months 772 00:38:46,066 --> 00:38:48,594 between three and five stories a week Okay 773 00:38:48,594 --> 00:38:51,126 I know I don't remember a story where a 774 00:38:51,126 --> 00:38:53,154 person went in and confronted the pastor 775 00:38:53,154 --> 00:38:55,526 and the pastor repented and changed and 776 00:38:55,526 --> 00:38:56,806 for and apologized and made the situation 777 00:38:56,806 --> 00:38:59,154 right I don't remember that happening now 778 00:38:59,154 --> 00:39:02,074 I think there are some pastors who say the 779 00:39:02,074 --> 00:39:04,026 did but a megachurch bunch of baloney in 780 00:39:04,026 --> 00:39:07,082 most cases So you're just going to have to 781 00:39:07,082 --> 00:39:08,986 deal with setbacks blowbacks pushbacks and 782 00:39:08,986 --> 00:39:10,726 you're going to have to have patience and 783 00:39:10,726 --> 00:39:13,306 it's going to be harder than the original 784 00:39:13,306 --> 00:39:14,814 abuse was.Yeah for most people that's true 785 00:39:14,814 --> 00:39:17,278 in our story We obviously called it out We 786 00:39:17,278 --> 00:39:19,166 got fired for that It was retaliation one 787 00:39:19,166 --> 00:39:22,106 of the most illegal forms in California 788 00:39:22,106 --> 00:39:23,770 Even now.It's interesting because I work 789 00:39:23,770 --> 00:39:26,098 something tech and leadership a 790 00:39:26,098 --> 00:39:28,980 development for asked pretty large global 791 00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:31,966 tech company And so I'm a calls with 792 00:39:31,966 --> 00:39:34,046 people happening the UK about to travel 793 00:39:34,046 --> 00:39:36,614 there soon And we have locations in Taiwan 794 00:39:36,614 --> 00:39:39,398 and China It's very diverse and everything 795 00:39:39,398 --> 00:39:42,166 but we are very strong in our company on a 796 00:39:42,166 --> 00:39:45,878 no retaliation policy Even with our survey 797 00:39:45,878 --> 00:39:50,154 we did we don't even allow the people to 798 00:39:50,154 --> 00:39:53,226 see the comments that might retaliate 799 00:39:53,226 --> 00:39:55,226 against them because we want people to 800 00:39:55,226 --> 00:39:57,034 feel free to share any power dynamic that 801 00:39:57,034 --> 00:40:04,954 might be inappropriate.And we a to watch 802 00:40:04,954 --> 00:40:09,166 these trainings where you can't retaliate 803 00:40:09,166 --> 00:40:10,286 by demoting someone giving them less work 804 00:40:10,286 --> 00:40:12,234 And the most extreme version of that would 805 00:40:12,234 --> 00:40:14,306 be to fire someone for saying something 806 00:40:14,306 --> 00:40:20,770 And yet our church got away with it That 807 00:40:20,770 --> 00:40:23,650 church is still going The person who did 808 00:40:23,650 --> 00:40:25,686 that is now in a church.And the other 809 00:40:25,686 --> 00:40:28,040 abuser of these two guys is now leading 810 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,694 one of the largest evangelical churches in 811 00:40:30,694 --> 00:40:35,954 the US Here in California in Saddleback 812 00:40:35,954 --> 00:40:41,174 And it's interesting how retaliation just 813 00:40:41,174 --> 00:40:44,282 gets so glossed over And it's sad because 814 00:40:44,282 --> 00:40:46,986 as we're talking About the scripture and 815 00:40:46,986 --> 00:40:48,262 talking about how.Important words are it's 816 00:40:48,262 --> 00:40:49,882 so important to be good listeners and care 817 00:40:49,882 --> 00:40:54,494 for one Another in the church And I just 818 00:40:54,494 --> 00:41:03,202 want to say thank you for taking the time 819 00:41:03,202 --> 00:41:06,434 to dig deep into Greek words culture and 820 00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:10,386 help us exegeute this trauma little bit 821 00:41:10,386 --> 00:41:12,946 better by helping it sound like something 822 00:41:12,946 --> 00:41:15,766 less familiar in advised way that can help 823 00:41:15,766 --> 00:41:17,782 us really dig deeper I think so often 824 00:41:17,782 --> 00:41:23,640 people don't dig deep and that's why abuse 825 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,534 gets covered up That's why power dynamics 826 00:41:26,534 --> 00:41:28,598 stay because we.Just take things at face 827 00:41:28,598 --> 00:41:30,842 value And you're asking us to just go a 828 00:41:30,842 --> 00:41:32,666 little deeper even with the scriptures 829 00:41:32,666 --> 00:41:35,386 that we read So thank your for this work I 830 00:41:35,386 --> 00:41:39,498 know it must have taken many Hours to make 831 00:41:39,498 --> 00:41:41,454 and so we're so.Grateful for your work on 832 00:41:41,454 --> 00:41:45,280 this but It'S so difficult to go public 833 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,254 because there's just clouds of power 834 00:41:48,254 --> 00:41:51,454 against you all the time when you when you 835 00:41:51,454 --> 00:41:55,460 start doing it and it's you can study and 836 00:41:55,460 --> 00:41:59,074 you can figure out and you say you know 837 00:41:59,074 --> 00:42:03,666 that was abuse And they'll say no it was 838 00:42:03,666 --> 00:42:07,094 leadership And they have the power to be 839 00:42:07,094 --> 00:42:11,014 able to narrate the story And you as a 840 00:42:11,014 --> 00:42:14,774 victim whoever we're talking about doesn't 841 00:42:14,774 --> 00:42:16,790 have the power to narrate that 842 00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:20,186 story.Someone else gets to tell the story 843 00:42:20,186 --> 00:42:25,962 and they get to gloss over it and they use 844 00:42:25,962 --> 00:42:28,314 their words to victimize 845 00:42:28,314 --> 00:42:29,322 revictimize.Clearly for me the most 846 00:42:29,322 --> 00:42:31,920 demanding and difficult thing I done in my 847 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,958 entire life working in the church is to 848 00:42:34,958 --> 00:42:38,394 realize how difficult it is for lots of 849 00:42:38,394 --> 00:42:41,998 church leaders and pastors simply to admit 850 00:42:41,998 --> 00:42:45,760 the truth.So sad because the truth sets us 851 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,726 free Isn't that the whole thing Yeah 852 00:42:47,726 --> 00:42:50,926 exactly Well thank you so much for your 853 00:42:50,926 --> 00:42:54,254 work I do want to ask you to.Hang out than 854 00:42:54,254 --> 00:42:55,942 little bit longer for our patreon 855 00:42:55,942 --> 00:42:58,338 supporters to do one more question with 856 00:42:58,338 --> 00:43:01,414 them but we'll go ahead And finish out 857 00:43:01,414 --> 00:43:04,838 this interview If you're not in our 858 00:43:04,838 --> 00:43:07,946 patreon community a join But I just want 859 00:43:07,946 --> 00:43:10,346 to thank you for joining us today Scott 860 00:43:10,346 --> 00:43:13,306 You are just not only department scholar 861 00:43:13,306 --> 00:43:18,554 that we can trust because we know that 862 00:43:18,554 --> 00:43:20,766 you're going to dig into the Greek words 863 00:43:20,766 --> 00:43:23,134 and help us understand them.But we also 864 00:43:23,134 --> 00:43:24,958 know you as a person in the survivor 865 00:43:24,958 --> 00:43:28,522 community as somebody who does actually 866 00:43:28,522 --> 00:43:32,014 pastoral care very well and caring for us 867 00:43:32,014 --> 00:43:35,138 I just say thank you on behalf of all of 868 00:43:35,138 --> 00:43:38,254 us in the survivor community a for me and 869 00:43:38,254 --> 00:43:42,130 my family And all that you've done for us 870 00:43:42,130 --> 00:43:47,074 To pray for us and engage with Us 871 00:43:47,074 --> 00:43:51,670 throughout the past couple of years.Well 872 00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:54,502 thank you Great to see you again Great to 873 00:43:54,502 --> 00:43:59,146 see you too Scott Take care Bye undefined 874 00:43:59,146 --> 00:44:00,170 undefined undefined undefined undefined 875 00:44:00,170 --> 00:44:00,986 undefined undefined undefined undefined 876 00:44:00,986 --> 00:44:02,490 undefined undefined undefined undefined 877 00:44:02,490 --> 00:44:05,706 undefined undefined undefined undefined 878 00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:07,834 undefined undefined undefined undefined 879 00:44:07,834 --> 00:44:08,970 undefined undefined undefined undefined 880 00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:09,626 undefined undefined undefined undefined 881 00:44:09,626 --> 00:44:10,874 undefined undefined undefined undefined 882 00:44:10,874 --> 00:44:12,154 undefined undefined undefined undefined 883 00:44:12,154 --> 00:44:13,162 undefined undefined undefined undefined 884 00:44:13,162 --> 00:44:14,078 undefined undefined undefined undefined 885 00:44:14,078 --> 00:44:14,478 undefined undefined undefined undefined 886 00:44:14,478 --> 00:44:15,086 undefined undefined undefined undefined 887 00:44:15,086 --> 00:44:16,286 undefined undefined undefined undefined 888 00:44:16,286 --> 00:44:17,418 undefined undefined undefined undefined 889 00:44:17,418 --> 00:44:18,254 undefined undefined undefined undefined 890 00:44:18,254 --> 00:44:21,326 undefined undefined undefined undefined 891 00:44:21,326 --> 00:44:22,378 undefined undefined undefined undefined 892 00:44:22,378 --> 00:44:23,154 undefined undefined undefined undefined 893 00:44:23,154 --> 00:44:25,090 undefined undefined undefined undefined 894 00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:28,414 undefined undefined undefined undefined 895 00:44:28,414 --> 00:44:29,586 undefined undefined undefined undefined 896 00:44:29,586 --> 00:44:30,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 897 00:44:30,946 --> 00:44:34,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 898 00:44:34,946 --> 00:44:36,726 undefined undefined undefined undefined 899 00:44:36,726 --> 00:44:37,974 undefined undefined undefined undefined 900 00:44:37,974 --> 00:44:38,918 undefined undefined undefined undefined 901 00:44:38,918 --> 00:44:39,954 undefined undefined undefined undefined 902 00:44:39,954 --> 00:44:41,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined 903 00:44:41,334 --> 00:44:43,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined 904 00:44:43,334 --> 00:44:45,080 undefined undefined undefined undefined 905 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:46,902 undefined undefined undefined undefined 906 00:44:46,902 --> 00:44:48,250 undefined undefined undefined undefined 907 00:44:48,250 --> 00:44:49,254 undefined undefined undefined undefined 908 00:44:49,254 --> 00:44:50,346 undefined undefined undefined undefined 909 00:44:50,346 --> 00:44:51,318 undefined undefined undefined undefined 910 00:44:51,318 --> 00:44:52,794 undefined undefined undefined undefined 911 00:44:52,794 --> 00:44:55,434 undefined undefined undefined undefined 912 00:44:55,434 --> 00:44:56,362 undefined undefined undefined undefined 913 00:44:56,362 --> 00:44:58,582 undefined undefined undefined undefined 914 00:44:58,582 --> 00:45:01,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 915 00:45:01,758 --> 00:45:02,206 undefined undefined undefined undefined 916 00:45:02,206 --> 00:45:03,726 undefined undefined undefined undefined 917 00:45:03,726 --> 00:45:07,262 undefined undefined undefined undefined 918 00:45:07,262 --> 00:45:10,560 undefined undefined undefined undefined 919 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,602 undefined undefined undefined undefined 920 00:45:13,602 --> 00:45:16,354 undefined undefined undefined undefined 921 00:45:16,354 --> 00:45:18,034 undefined undefined undefined undefined 922 00:45:18,034 --> 00:45:18,834 undefined undefined undefined undefined 923 00:45:18,834 --> 00:45:19,938 undefined undefined undefined undefined 924 00:45:19,938 --> 00:45:22,418 undefined undefined undefined undefined 925 00:45:22,418 --> 00:45:23,598 undefined undefined undefined undefined 926 00:45:23,598 --> 00:45:25,474 undefined undefined undefined undefined 927 00:45:25,474 --> 00:45:26,694 undefined undefined undefined undefined 928 00:45:26,694 --> 00:45:27,686 undefined undefined undefined undefined 929 00:45:27,686 --> 00:45:28,982 undefined undefined undefined undefined 930 00:45:28,982 --> 00:45:30,770 undefined undefined undefined undefined 931 00:45:30,770 --> 00:45:33,862 undefined undefined undefined undefined 932 00:45:33,862 --> 00:45:35,414 undefined undefined undefined undefined 933 00:45:35,414 --> 00:45:36,290 undefined undefined undefined undefined 934 00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:37,222 undefined undefined undefined undefined 935 00:45:37,222 --> 00:45:38,310 undefined undefined undefined undefined 936 00:45:38,310 --> 00:45:39,650 undefined undefined undefined undefined 937 00:45:39,650 --> 00:45:40,726 undefined undefined undefined undefined 938 00:45:40,726 --> 00:45:41,994 undefined undefined undefined undefined 939 00:45:41,994 --> 00:45:43,146 undefined undefined undefined undefined 940 00:45:43,146 --> 00:45:44,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 941 00:45:44,666 --> 00:45:46,634 undefined undefined undefined undefined 942 00:45:46,634 --> 00:45:47,754 undefined undefined undefined undefined 943 00:45:47,754 --> 00:45:48,954 undefined undefined undefined undefined 944 00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:50,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 945 00:45:50,426 --> 00:45:51,306 undefined undefined undefined undefined 946 00:45:51,306 --> 00:45:52,446 undefined undefined undefined undefined 947 00:45:52,446 --> 00:45:53,166 undefined undefined undefined undefined 948 00:45:53,166 --> 00:45:53,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 949 00:45:53,886 --> 00:45:55,786 undefined undefined undefined undefined 950 00:45:55,786 --> 00:45:57,226 undefined undefined undefined undefined 951 00:45:57,226 --> 00:45:58,606 undefined undefined undefined undefined 952 00:45:58,606 --> 00:45:59,822 undefined undefined undefined undefined 953 00:45:59,822 --> 00:46:01,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 954 00:46:01,758 --> 00:46:03,294 undefined undefined undefined undefined 955 00:46:03,294 --> 00:46:04,766 undefined undefined undefined undefined 956 00:46:04,766 --> 00:46:05,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 957 00:46:05,758 --> 00:46:06,386 undefined undefined undefined undefined 958 00:46:06,386 --> 00:46:08,802 undefined undefined undefined undefined 959 00:46:08,802 --> 00:46:10,626 undefined undefined undefined undefined 960 00:46:10,626 --> 00:46:11,458 undefined undefined undefined undefined 961 00:46:11,458 --> 00:46:12,226 undefined undefined undefined undefined 962 00:46:12,226 --> 00:46:13,074 undefined undefined undefined undefined 963 00:46:13,074 --> 00:46:13,874 undefined undefined undefined undefined 964 00:46:13,874 --> 00:46:14,990 undefined undefined undefined undefined 965 00:46:14,990 --> 00:46:16,146 undefined undefined undefined undefined 966 00:46:16,146 --> 00:46:17,030 undefined undefined undefined undefined 967 00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:17,926 undefined undefined undefined undefined 968 00:46:17,926 --> 00:46:19,986 undefined undefined undefined undefined 969 00:46:19,986 --> 00:46:20,822 undefined undefined undefined undefined 970 00:46:20,822 --> 00:46:21,766 undefined undefined undefined undefined 971 00:46:21,766 --> 00:46:23,798 undefined undefined undefined undefined 972 00:46:23,798 --> 00:46:26,854 undefined undefined undefined undefined 973 00:46:26,854 --> 00:46:28,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 974 00:46:28,566 --> 00:46:29,446 undefined undefined undefined undefined 975 00:46:29,446 --> 00:46:30,266 undefined undefined undefined undefined 976 00:46:30,266 --> 00:46:31,434 undefined undefined undefined undefined 977 00:46:31,434 --> 00:46:33,306 undefined undefined undefined undefined 978 00:46:33,306 --> 00:46:34,906 undefined undefined undefined undefined 979 00:46:34,906 --> 00:46:36,234 undefined undefined undefined undefined 980 00:46:36,234 --> 00:46:37,450 undefined undefined undefined undefined 981 00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:39,194 undefined undefined undefined undefined 982 00:46:39,194 --> 00:46:39,898 undefined undefined undefined undefined 983 00:46:39,898 --> 00:46:40,734 undefined undefined undefined undefined 984 00:46:40,734 --> 00:46:41,854 undefined undefined undefined undefined 985 00:46:41,854 --> 00:46:44,938 undefined undefined undefined undefined 986 00:46:44,938 --> 00:46:46,974 undefined undefined undefined undefined 987 00:46:46,974 --> 00:46:48,158 undefined undefined undefined undefined 988 00:46:48,158 --> 00:46:49,326 undefined undefined undefined undefined 989 00:46:49,326 --> 00:46:50,990 undefined undefined undefined undefined 990 00:46:50,990 --> 00:46:53,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 991 00:46:53,006 --> 00:46:53,934 undefined undefined undefined undefined 992 00:46:53,934 --> 00:46:55,374 undefined undefined undefined undefined 993 00:46:55,374 --> 00:46:56,450 undefined undefined undefined undefined 994 00:46:56,450 --> 00:46:57,794 undefined undefined undefined undefined 995 00:46:57,794 --> 00:46:58,674 undefined undefined undefined undefined 996 00:46:58,674 --> 00:46:59,746 undefined undefined undefined undefined 997 00:46:59,746 --> 00:47:01,214 undefined undefined undefined undefined 998 00:47:01,214 --> 00:47:02,834 undefined undefined undefined undefined 999 00:47:02,834 --> 00:47:03,762 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1000 00:47:03,762 --> 00:47:04,882 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1001 00:47:04,882 --> 00:47:05,714 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1002 00:47:05,714 --> 00:47:06,626 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1003 00:47:06,626 --> 00:47:07,618 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1004 00:47:07,618 --> 00:47:09,094 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1005 00:47:09,094 --> 00:47:09,862 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1006 00:47:09,862 --> 00:47:10,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1007 00:47:10,566 --> 00:47:12,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1008 00:47:12,566 --> 00:47:14,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1009 00:47:14,006 --> 00:47:15,286 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1010 00:47:15,286 --> 00:47:16,118 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1011 00:47:16,118 --> 00:47:19,800 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1012 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,700 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1013 00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:25,260 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1014 00:47:25,260 --> 00:47:27,274 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1015 00:47:27,274 --> 00:47:28,186 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1016 00:47:28,186 --> 00:47:29,114 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1017 00:47:29,114 --> 00:47:31,194 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1018 00:47:31,194 --> 00:47:32,586 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1019 00:47:32,586 --> 00:47:33,386 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1020 00:47:33,386 --> 00:47:34,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1021 00:47:34,006 --> 00:47:35,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1022 00:47:35,006 --> 00:47:35,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1023 00:47:35,886 --> 00:47:38,574 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1024 00:47:38,574 --> 00:47:40,366 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1025 00:47:40,366 --> 00:47:41,498 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1026 00:47:41,498 --> 00:47:44,562 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1027 00:47:44,562 --> 00:47:47,630 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1028 00:47:47,630 --> 00:47:51,054 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1029 00:47:51,054 --> 00:47:51,874 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1030 00:47:51,874 --> 00:47:53,442 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1031 00:47:53,442 --> 00:47:54,354 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1032 00:47:54,354 --> 00:47:56,166 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1033 00:47:56,166 --> 00:47:57,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1034 00:47:57,334 --> 00:47:58,374 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1035 00:47:58,374 --> 00:48:01,458 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1036 00:48:01,458 --> 00:48:10,330 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1037 00:48:10,330 --> 00:48:12,842 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1038 00:48:12,842 --> 00:48:14,314 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1039 00:48:14,314 --> 00:48:15,674 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1040 00:48:15,674 --> 00:48:17,030 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1041 00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:19,642 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1042 00:48:19,642 --> 00:48:21,102 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1043 00:48:21,102 --> 00:48:22,186 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1044 00:48:22,186 --> 00:48:24,814 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1045 00:48:24,814 --> 00:48:28,894 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1046 00:48:28,894 --> 00:48:30,106 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1047 00:48:30,106 --> 00:48:31,018 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1048 00:48:31,018 --> 00:48:31,710 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1049 00:48:31,710 --> 00:48:35,454 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1050 00:48:35,454 --> 00:48:36,206 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1051 00:48:36,206 --> 00:48:37,646 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1052 00:48:37,646 --> 00:48:38,386 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1053 00:48:38,386 --> 00:48:39,298 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1054 00:48:39,298 --> 00:48:40,866 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1055 00:48:40,866 --> 00:48:42,098 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1056 00:48:42,098 --> 00:48:42,754 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1057 00:48:42,754 --> 00:48:43,438 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1058 00:48:43,438 --> 00:48:44,402 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1059 00:48:44,402 --> 00:48:45,378 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1060 00:48:45,378 --> 00:48:45,906 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1061 00:48:45,906 --> 00:48:47,810 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1062 00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:49,238 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1063 00:48:49,238 --> 00:48:50,182 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1064 00:48:50,182 --> 00:48:52,162 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1065 00:48:52,162 --> 00:48:53,814 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1066 00:48:53,814 --> 00:48:55,126 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1067 00:48:55,126 --> 00:48:55,926 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1068 00:48:55,926 --> 00:48:56,486 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1069 00:48:56,486 --> 00:48:57,094 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1070 00:48:57,094 --> 00:48:58,278 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1071 00:48:58,278 --> 00:48:59,126 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1072 00:48:59,126 --> 00:49:00,374 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1073 00:49:00,374 --> 00:49:01,210 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1074 00:49:01,210 --> 00:49:02,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1075 00:49:02,426 --> 00:49:04,202 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1076 00:49:04,202 --> 00:49:06,602 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1077 00:49:06,602 --> 00:49:07,706 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1078 00:49:07,706 --> 00:49:08,618 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1079 00:49:08,618 --> 00:49:09,478 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1080 00:49:09,478 --> 00:49:09,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1081 00:49:09,946 --> 00:49:10,890 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1082 00:49:10,890 --> 00:49:11,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1083 00:49:11,946 --> 00:49:12,746 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1084 00:49:12,746 --> 00:49:13,786 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1085 00:49:13,786 --> 00:49:14,606 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1086 00:49:14,606 --> 00:49:15,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1087 00:49:15,886 --> 00:49:16,734 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1088 00:49:16,734 --> 00:49:18,094 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1089 00:49:18,094 --> 00:49:19,086 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1090 00:49:19,086 --> 00:49:21,054 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1091 00:49:21,054 --> 00:49:21,694 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1092 00:49:21,694 --> 00:49:23,730 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1093 00:49:23,730 --> 00:49:27,038 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1094 00:49:27,038 --> 00:49:28,066 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1095 00:49:28,066 --> 00:49:29,378 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1096 00:49:29,378 --> 00:49:31,874 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1097 00:49:31,874 --> 00:49:33,166 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1098 00:49:33,166 --> 00:49:34,466 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1099 00:49:34,466 --> 00:49:35,986 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1100 00:49:35,986 --> 00:49:37,846 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1101 00:49:37,846 --> 00:49:39,526 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1102 00:49:39,526 --> 00:49:40,934 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1103 00:49:40,934 --> 00:49:44,614 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1104 00:49:44,614 --> 00:49:45,526 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1105 00:49:45,526 --> 00:49:46,626 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1106 00:49:46,626 --> 00:49:47,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1107 00:49:47,946 --> 00:49:48,906 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1108 00:49:48,906 --> 00:49:52,074 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1109 00:49:52,074 --> 00:49:53,914 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1110 00:49:53,914 --> 00:49:55,882 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1111 00:49:55,882 --> 00:49:57,114 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1112 00:49:57,114 --> 00:49:57,978 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1113 00:49:57,978 --> 00:50:00,266 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1114 00:50:00,266 --> 00:50:01,546 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1115 00:50:01,546 --> 00:50:02,310 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1116 00:50:02,310 --> 00:50:03,022 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1117 00:50:03,022 --> 00:50:04,494 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1118 00:50:04,494 --> 00:50:07,386 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1119 00:50:07,386 --> 00:50:08,286 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1120 00:50:08,286 --> 00:50:09,934 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1121 00:50:09,934 --> 00:50:11,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1122 00:50:11,006 --> 00:50:11,678 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1123 00:50:11,678 --> 00:50:13,934 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1124 00:50:13,934 --> 00:50:15,038 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1125 00:50:15,038 --> 00:50:15,906 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1126 00:50:15,906 --> 00:50:17,234 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1127 00:50:17,234 --> 00:50:18,498 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1128 00:50:18,498 --> 00:50:19,774 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1129 00:50:19,774 --> 00:50:20,930 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1130 00:50:20,930 --> 00:50:22,866 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1131 00:50:22,866 --> 00:50:23,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1132 00:50:23,666 --> 00:50:25,282 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1133 00:50:25,282 --> 00:50:26,754 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1134 00:50:26,754 --> 00:50:27,574 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1135 00:50:27,574 --> 00:50:29,000 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1136 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,494 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1137 00:50:31,494 --> 00:50:32,806 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1138 00:50:32,806 --> 00:50:33,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1139 00:50:33,666 --> 00:50:34,822 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1140 00:50:34,822 --> 00:50:36,534 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1141 00:50:36,534 --> 00:50:37,706 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1142 00:50:37,706 --> 00:50:38,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1143 00:50:38,758 --> 00:50:40,138 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1144 00:50:40,138 --> 00:50:41,242 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1145 00:50:41,242 --> 00:50:43,722 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1146 00:50:43,722 --> 00:50:45,606 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1147 00:50:45,606 --> 00:50:48,170 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1148 00:50:48,170 --> 00:50:49,722 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1149 00:50:49,722 --> 00:50:51,098 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1150 00:50:51,098 --> 00:50:53,274 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1151 00:50:53,274 --> 00:50:55,646 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1152 00:50:55,646 --> 00:50:56,846 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1153 00:50:56,846 --> 00:50:58,414 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1154 00:50:58,414 --> 00:50:59,354 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1155 00:50:59,354 --> 00:51:01,514 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1156 00:51:01,514 --> 00:51:03,554 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1157 00:51:03,554 --> 00:51:04,914 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1158 00:51:04,914 --> 00:51:06,482 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1159 00:51:06,482 --> 00:51:07,906 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1160 00:51:07,906 --> 00:51:10,434 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1161 00:51:10,434 --> 00:51:12,606 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1162 00:51:12,606 --> 00:51:14,260 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1163 00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:16,270 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1164 00:51:16,270 --> 00:51:17,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1165 00:51:17,666 --> 00:51:19,558 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1166 00:51:19,558 --> 00:51:20,966 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1167 00:51:20,966 --> 00:51:22,022 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1168 00:51:22,022 --> 00:51:24,360 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1169 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,070 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1170 00:51:26,070 --> 00:51:27,046 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1171 00:51:27,046 --> 00:51:29,066 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1172 00:51:29,066 --> 00:51:29,962 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1173 00:51:29,962 --> 00:51:32,186 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1174 00:51:32,186 --> 00:51:33,254 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1175 00:51:33,254 --> 00:51:33,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1176 00:51:33,946 --> 00:51:35,530 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1177 00:51:35,530 --> 00:51:37,866 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1178 00:51:37,866 --> 00:51:38,854 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1179 00:51:38,854 --> 00:51:40,826 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1180 00:51:40,826 --> 00:51:42,382 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1181 00:51:42,382 --> 00:51:43,742 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1182 00:51:43,742 --> 00:51:44,974 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1183 00:51:44,974 --> 00:51:47,118 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1184 00:51:47,118 --> 00:51:48,174 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1185 00:51:48,174 --> 00:51:49,822 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1186 00:51:49,822 --> 00:51:53,342 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1187 00:51:53,342 --> 00:51:54,820 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1188 00:51:54,820 --> 00:51:56,466 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1189 00:51:56,466 --> 00:51:58,130 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1190 00:51:58,130 --> 00:51:59,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1191 00:51:59,426 --> 00:52:00,898 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1192 00:52:00,898 --> 00:52:03,586 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1193 00:52:03,586 --> 00:52:04,146 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1194 00:52:04,146 --> 00:52:06,226 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1195 00:52:06,226 --> 00:52:07,506 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1196 00:52:07,506 --> 00:52:08,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1197 00:52:08,886 --> 00:52:10,262 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1198 00:52:10,262 --> 00:52:11,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1199 00:52:11,426 --> 00:52:12,454 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1200 00:52:12,454 --> 00:52:13,862 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1201 00:52:13,862 --> 00:52:14,854 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1202 00:52:14,854 --> 00:52:16,294 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1203 00:52:16,294 --> 00:52:18,326 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1204 00:52:18,326 --> 00:52:20,314 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1205 00:52:20,314 --> 00:52:23,398 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1206 00:52:23,398 --> 00:52:24,794 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1207 00:52:24,794 --> 00:52:26,858 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1208 00:52:26,858 --> 00:52:28,314 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1209 00:52:28,314 --> 00:52:30,022 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1210 00:52:30,022 --> 00:52:30,926 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1211 00:52:30,926 --> 00:52:32,846 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1212 00:52:32,846 --> 00:52:34,302 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1213 00:52:34,302 --> 00:52:36,734 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1214 00:52:36,734 --> 00:52:37,998 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1215 00:52:37,998 --> 00:52:40,414 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1216 00:52:40,414 --> 00:52:41,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1217 00:52:41,886 --> 00:52:43,306 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1218 00:52:43,306 --> 00:52:44,574 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1219 00:52:44,574 --> 00:52:45,910 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1220 00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:47,746 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1221 00:52:47,746 --> 00:52:48,866 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1222 00:52:48,866 --> 00:52:49,986 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1223 00:52:49,986 --> 00:52:51,140 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1224 00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:52,846 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1225 00:52:52,846 --> 00:52:53,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1226 00:52:53,886 --> 00:52:54,578 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1227 00:52:54,578 --> 00:52:55,534 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1228 00:52:55,534 --> 00:52:57,890 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1229 00:52:57,890 --> 00:52:59,106 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1230 00:52:59,106 --> 00:53:00,434 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1231 00:53:00,434 --> 00:53:01,910 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1232 00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:03,798 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1233 00:53:03,798 --> 00:53:05,174 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1234 00:53:05,174 --> 00:53:06,038 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1235 00:53:06,038 --> 00:53:06,742 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1236 00:53:06,742 --> 00:53:07,718 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1237 00:53:07,718 --> 00:53:10,118 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1238 00:53:10,118 --> 00:53:10,794 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1239 00:53:10,794 --> 00:53:11,798 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1240 00:53:11,798 --> 00:53:12,506 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1241 00:53:12,506 --> 00:53:13,546 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1242 00:53:13,546 --> 00:53:16,362 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1243 00:53:16,362 --> 00:53:17,354 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1244 00:53:17,354 --> 00:53:17,994 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1245 00:53:17,994 --> 00:53:21,354 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1246 00:53:21,354 --> 00:53:22,478 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1247 00:53:22,478 --> 00:53:25,150 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1248 00:53:25,150 --> 00:53:27,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1249 00:53:27,758 --> 00:53:28,766 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1250 00:53:28,766 --> 00:53:29,966 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1251 00:53:29,966 --> 00:53:31,086 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1252 00:53:31,086 --> 00:53:32,778 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1253 00:53:32,778 --> 00:53:33,218 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1254 00:53:33,218 --> 00:53:33,778 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1255 00:53:33,778 --> 00:53:34,978 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1256 00:53:34,978 --> 00:53:37,938 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1257 00:53:37,938 --> 00:53:39,454 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1258 00:53:39,454 --> 00:53:40,434 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1259 00:53:40,434 --> 00:53:42,882 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1260 00:53:42,882 --> 00:53:46,582 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1261 00:53:46,582 --> 00:53:48,326 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1262 00:53:48,326 --> 00:53:49,862 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1263 00:53:49,862 --> 00:53:50,918 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1264 00:53:50,918 --> 00:53:53,078 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1265 00:53:53,078 --> 00:53:54,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1266 00:53:54,006 --> 00:53:55,634 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1267 00:53:55,634 --> 00:53:57,382 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1268 00:53:57,382 --> 00:53:58,454 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1269 00:53:58,454 --> 00:53:59,546 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1270 00:53:59,546 --> 00:54:00,630 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1271 00:54:00,630 --> 00:54:02,614 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1272 00:54:02,614 --> 00:54:03,594 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1273 00:54:03,594 --> 00:54:05,302 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1274 00:54:05,302 --> 00:54:06,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1275 00:54:06,666 --> 00:54:08,934 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1276 00:54:08,934 --> 00:54:09,894 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1277 00:54:09,894 --> 00:54:11,226 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1278 00:54:11,226 --> 00:54:13,520 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1279 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:17,466 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1280 00:54:17,466 --> 00:54:20,698 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1281 00:54:20,698 --> 00:54:21,662 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1282 00:54:21,662 --> 00:54:23,870 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1283 00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:25,362 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1284 00:54:25,362 --> 00:54:26,354 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1285 00:54:26,354 --> 00:54:28,002 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1286 00:54:28,002 --> 00:54:29,154 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1287 00:54:29,154 --> 00:54:30,580 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1288 00:54:30,580 --> 00:54:33,294 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1289 00:54:33,294 --> 00:54:34,066 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1290 00:54:34,066 --> 00:54:35,346 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1291 00:54:35,346 --> 00:54:36,034 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1292 00:54:36,034 --> 00:54:37,650 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1293 00:54:37,650 --> 00:54:39,250 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1294 00:54:39,250 --> 00:54:40,486 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1295 00:54:40,486 --> 00:54:41,762 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1296 00:54:41,762 --> 00:54:42,518 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1297 00:54:42,518 --> 00:54:43,574 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1298 00:54:43,574 --> 00:54:44,870 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1299 00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:45,654 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1300 00:54:45,654 --> 00:54:46,406 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1301 00:54:46,406 --> 00:54:47,462 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1302 00:54:47,462 --> 00:54:48,454 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1303 00:54:48,454 --> 00:54:49,254 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1304 00:54:49,254 --> 00:54:50,374 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1305 00:54:50,374 --> 00:54:51,430 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1306 00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:52,614 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1307 00:54:52,614 --> 00:54:54,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1308 00:54:54,426 --> 00:54:56,486 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1309 00:54:56,486 --> 00:54:57,594 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1310 00:54:57,594 --> 00:54:58,746 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1311 00:54:58,746 --> 00:54:59,306 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1312 00:54:59,306 --> 00:55:00,346 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1313 00:55:00,346 --> 00:55:02,154 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1314 00:55:02,154 --> 00:55:04,094 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1315 00:55:04,094 --> 00:55:05,022 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1316 00:55:05,022 --> 00:55:06,046 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1317 00:55:06,046 --> 00:55:07,754 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1318 00:55:07,754 --> 00:55:08,826 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1319 00:55:08,826 --> 00:55:10,906 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1320 00:55:10,906 --> 00:55:11,854 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1321 00:55:11,854 --> 00:55:12,894 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1322 00:55:12,894 --> 00:55:14,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1323 00:55:14,334 --> 00:55:15,902 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1324 00:55:15,902 --> 00:55:17,538 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1325 00:55:17,538 --> 00:55:18,498 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1326 00:55:18,498 --> 00:55:19,186 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1327 00:55:19,186 --> 00:55:21,346 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1328 00:55:21,346 --> 00:55:22,226 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1329 00:55:22,226 --> 00:55:23,538 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1330 00:55:23,538 --> 00:55:24,546 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1331 00:55:24,546 --> 00:55:25,266 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1332 00:55:25,266 --> 00:55:26,446 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1333 00:55:26,446 --> 00:55:27,394 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1334 00:55:27,394 --> 00:55:28,546 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1335 00:55:28,546 --> 00:55:29,510 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1336 00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:31,206 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1337 00:55:31,206 --> 00:55:32,374 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1338 00:55:32,374 --> 00:55:33,494 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1339 00:55:33,494 --> 00:55:34,630 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1340 00:55:34,630 --> 00:55:35,414 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1341 00:55:35,414 --> 00:55:36,054 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1342 00:55:36,054 --> 00:55:37,062 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1343 00:55:37,062 --> 00:55:39,494 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1344 00:55:39,494 --> 00:55:40,326 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1345 00:55:40,326 --> 00:55:41,746 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1346 00:55:41,746 --> 00:55:42,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1347 00:55:42,666 --> 00:55:43,994 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1348 00:55:43,994 --> 00:55:45,206 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1349 00:55:45,206 --> 00:55:46,266 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1350 00:55:46,266 --> 00:55:47,658 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1351 00:55:47,658 --> 00:55:48,266 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1352 00:55:48,266 --> 00:55:49,114 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1353 00:55:49,114 --> 00:55:49,946 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1354 00:55:49,946 --> 00:55:50,586 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1355 00:55:50,586 --> 00:55:51,610 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1356 00:55:51,610 --> 00:55:52,746 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1357 00:55:52,746 --> 00:55:53,830 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1358 00:55:53,830 --> 00:55:54,922 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1359 00:55:54,922 --> 00:55:55,818 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1360 00:55:55,818 --> 00:55:56,798 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1361 00:55:56,798 --> 00:55:57,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1362 00:55:57,566 --> 00:55:58,814 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1363 00:55:58,814 --> 00:55:59,534 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1364 00:55:59,534 --> 00:56:00,494 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1365 00:56:00,494 --> 00:56:01,246 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1366 00:56:01,246 --> 00:56:02,814 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1367 00:56:02,814 --> 00:56:03,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1368 00:56:03,758 --> 00:56:04,734 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1369 00:56:04,734 --> 00:56:06,298 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1370 00:56:06,298 --> 00:56:07,246 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1371 00:56:07,246 --> 00:56:08,538 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1372 00:56:08,538 --> 00:56:09,966 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1373 00:56:09,966 --> 00:56:11,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1374 00:56:11,006 --> 00:56:12,702 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1375 00:56:12,702 --> 00:56:14,458 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1376 00:56:14,458 --> 00:56:15,446 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1377 00:56:15,446 --> 00:56:16,214 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1378 00:56:16,214 --> 00:56:18,086 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1379 00:56:18,086 --> 00:56:19,910 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1380 00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:21,554 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1381 00:56:21,554 --> 00:56:22,486 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1382 00:56:22,486 --> 00:56:23,318 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1383 00:56:23,318 --> 00:56:24,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1384 00:56:24,006 --> 00:56:25,158 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1385 00:56:25,158 --> 00:56:26,598 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1386 00:56:26,598 --> 00:56:27,862 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1387 00:56:27,862 --> 00:56:28,854 undefined undefined undefined undefined

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Recent Episodes

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Our Story Part 4: The Firing Squad

Our Story Part 3: The Gaslighting and Flanking

Our Story Part 2: The Question

Our Story Part 1: The Calm Before the Storm

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Belonging: Corey Nathan on Growing Up Jewish, Finding Jesus, Celebra…

Belonging: Jo Saxton on Recent Clergy Abuse Cases, Leadership Pipeli…