S5:10:123: Richard Zitrin Trial Lawyer: A Life Representing People Against Power

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Welcome to A Day with Crime podcast
were Crime a Day keeps the doctor away.

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Here are your hosts, David in
Geneva McClean. What's going on?

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Everybody? Welcome to an episode of
A David Crime. Where are your host

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David and Geneva. You are listening
to a very special episode of the season.

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We have a very special guest.
We get to him. It's just

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a second. But Geneva, how
are you doing today? I am doing

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great, Dad. You know,
it's been a pretty chill day over here.

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I read a lot today, So
how are you doing? Fine?

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Read a lot as well as you
know. We're in the middle of a

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book challenge right now. Came to
your sprint last night. It was actually

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pretty good. Got to finish a
book. Everything here on the home fronts

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going well, so it is good. So speaking of books, that brings

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us today to who our special guest
is. Let me read you a little

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bit about who he is and then
we're introduced him into the podcast. So.

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He has been licensed to practice law
in California and New York for four

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decades. He has tried over fifty
cases to verdict, from murder cases to

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products liability and malpractice, among others. He has been certified in California as

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a trial specialist in both criminal law
and legal malpractice law. He also has

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spent over forty years teaching at two
Bay area law schools, primarily teaching legal

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ethics and also teaching trial practice.
He has written three previous books, including

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The Moral Compass of the American Lawyer, Truth, Justice, Power and Greed,

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and over one hundred published articles.
He has published in perioddicles from the

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New York Times, Los Angeles Times, in San Francisco Chronicle, to the

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National Law Journal, the Sporting News, and nine, a journal of baseball

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history and culture. Today, our
special guests is Professor Richard Citron. He

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is the author of the brand new
book called Trial Lawyer, A Life Representing

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People Against Power. Professor Richard Sitter
and welcome to a David Crime. How

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are you doing today, sir?
I'm doing well, David. Thank you

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for having me, but we thank
you for coming on. We're gonna get

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to your book, Trial Lawyer,
A Life Representing People Against Power in just

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a second. But since we have
somebody on the podcast with jar esteem,

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I know that you've written bills,
writing bills, You've been everywhere. What

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is your thoughts and feelings. I
know that Roe versus Way just got overturned.

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It's a big issue right now.
Some people agree, some people don't

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agree. Some people agree for maybe
what they consider to be right reasons or

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wrong reasons. What's your thoughts in
that, being that this is kind of

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your will? Well, I'm very
concerned about it. I mean really concerned

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about it. I think the Supreme
Court has been hijacked by a majority that

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doesn't reflect the majority of the American
people and is doing a disservice to America

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with a contorted conception of what the
Constitution really means. You know, I

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just saw a PBS special on Benjamin
Franklin, who I have a particular affinity

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for because I was born on his
birthday. And in that conversation about Franklin,

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historians pointed out that he knew the
Constitution was going to be a dynamic

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document that had a change with the
times. But it seems like the attitude

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of the Supreme Court is that it's
the original document and only the original document,

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I believe, and people have been
saying this for sixty years, that

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doing empirical studies that prove it for
sixty years. But the Supreme Court is

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deciding things based on their own personal
and political perspectives and not based on the

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Constitution and the law. And I
believe that that's what happened with Dobbs to

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overturn Row and the gun decision about
New York, and the environmental decision that

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the EPA can't stop polluters as it's
been doing, which could be even worse

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because they could kill us all.
It's just an extreme disservice. And even

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if Donald Trump was indicted and convicted, and I hope he will be,

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this is his legacy and it's a
very very dire one. That was kind

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of the things of my next question
janeven. I have been persecuted to the

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States when they's come to Donald Trump
because a lot of people knew we didn't

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like him. On our podcasts,
though, we come with the real truth,

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and there's been a number of cases
that has come up where his name

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has been mentioned, Jeffrey Epstein to
be one of the most recent ones.

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It's not that we want to cause
any malice, but the truth is the

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truth, and now that we know
a lot about what's going on. In

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January sixth, we just had a
very big bombshell testimony a few days ago,

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and a lot of people is feeling
that even though this is out now,

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if you watched that, I was
watching some of the Capital police officers

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faces when she was giving this testimony, and they had this look of this

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dude really didn't give her damn.
So basically, what's your thought, what

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do you feel happen? I feel
that if it was any one of us

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regular no matter what color, we
would be persecuted to the furthest end of

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the law and probably put away.
Do you think that Donald Trump would get

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away with this or that they would
do what they need to do and convict

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him legally. Well, I've been
concerned that the congressional hearings won't turn up

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enough stuff, but I must say, in the last week or so,

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it's been extraordinary. And Miss Hutchinson
was a hell of her witness. She

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was very poised and very on point, and she's a conservative Republican, you

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know, she's not a flaming lefty, and she just felt that, as

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she put it, that the Constitution
was being violated. Now, whether that's

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going to make a difference, I
don't know, because we all know that

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Donald Trump has been so often like
Teflon and his supporters tend to line up

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behind him no matter what. But
these hearings have brought out a lot of

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people like the former of Attorney General
bar who I have no love for,

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but who told Trump flat out that
the idea that he had won the election

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was BS and that's not the words
that he used. He used the real

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words. So maybe they're going to
move against Trump. They certainly have enough

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evidence. I think a real key, David, is that Pat Chippolini is

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gonna come along and give testimony,
And that could be a key because he's

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the guy who was the White House
counsel who told Trump you have lost,

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but he didn't want to testify,
And now with this new revelation from from

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Cassidy Hutchinson, he's now said I'm
willing to testify, and that could make

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the difference. We do know that
the Department of Justice is investigating because they

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went out and seized a bunch of
stuff. The FBI went out and received

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a bunch of stuff. So I
hope that they're moving and I hope that

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well in advance of the elections this
November, that Trump will be indicted and

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he certainly should be he's he in
my view, he's a criminal. You

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know, you know from reading the
book I represented. A lot of people

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are accused of crimes, and most
of those who were not rich white guys.

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But this guy is a real criminal. So that kind of leads into

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your book and for the audience knowledge. The reason we ask you these questions

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is because it goes hand in hand
with what you do, and hand in

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hand with a book that I say
has change my life, and that is

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your book, Trial Lawyer of Life, representing people against power. At the

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risk of sounding races, which I'm
not trying to be the one thing that

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a lot of people that I've come
in contact with. My wife is white,

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and we have a lot of friends
who don't get it, and my

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wife does get it. And I've
been that's the question, But why do

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you not like Donald Trump? And
what has Donald Trump done to you in

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four years? And my answer has
always been, if you look at the

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scope of the way the world went
when he got elected, white supremacy became

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on the rise. He talks about
getting rid of Mexicans. There's a number

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of cases that we actually covered that
he was using Mexicans to get rid of

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them. Saying, well, they're
all murders, get rid of them.

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Racism was at an all time hiding
what I've ever seen it before in my

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whole forty nine years of life.
When I read this book, your first

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trial that you ever did, which
is a doozy, which is the San

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Quentin six, one of the most
bloodiest murders in San Quentin prison or in

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history. Your first client was Johnny
Sloan. I I want to hear directly

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from you. I read the book
when you had to represent him, What

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was your feelings when the first time
you saw him come into that courtroom.

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Well, let me tell you about
the first time I saw him in the

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San Quentin visiting center. So Johnny, along with George Jackson, who was

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the solid Dad brother and a very
famous political prisoner, and four other five

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other guys who were eventually accused with
Johnny, we're all in the first floor

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of the adjustment center at San Quentin. Couldn't get outside except for a visit.

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They never exercised outside two showers a
week. When they went to visits,

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they were wearing twenty five pounds of
chains, including a neck chain around

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their neck. And to me,
it looked like when Johnny walked into that

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visiting room that he was being taken
to the auction block. I mean it

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was. It is horrific. And
the room was so crowded and bad that

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there was a screen between us.
We couldn't even shake hands. We had

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to shake hands by sticking our fingers
under the one inch or one and a

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half inch space below that screen and
shaking our fingertips. It was I think

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I was in shock, David,
I really was. I was twenty six

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years old, Johnny was twenty four, and I think I was in shock.

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I had never seen such treatment,
such dehumanizing treatment, in my entire

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life, and it continued throughout the
entire trial. I know at one point

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when I was reading the book to
me, reminded me of slavery days.

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Right the way you described him being
chained. He's chained to a table,

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even though he's sitting in a courtroom. He's not causing any kind of rookies

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at all, but just because of
who he is. Now, if you

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look at the other side of that, I don't know what this feeling it

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was. Maybe you can tell me, But now I'm in all of this

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mess, I'm in these chains.
I'm before a judge who's obviously white,

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that Jerry Mark peers his white and
ill have this white attorney. Did he

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feel like you felt when I was
reading that, that maybe he got the

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white attorney that understood as much as
he could and got maybe what he was

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feeling, like that he wasn't looking
at a black man, he was looking

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at just a man. Well,
my job was as a law clerk,

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David, so I wasn't the front
and center guy. But David Mayer,

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who was my mentor and was his
lawyer back then as I was clerking,

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certainly was somebody who cared deeply about
injustice and particularly deeply about injustice and prisons.

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He represented a lot of black prisoners
in lawsuits and habeas corpus petitions,

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and I think he really did understand. But I'll tell you neither David nor

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I really understood back then as much
as I learned to understand later on and

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continue to learn to understand. I
mean, it was a it was a

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radicalizing experience to see Johnny in those
conditions and to become friendly with him,

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But it just was the beginning of
my journey of awareness when it related to

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matters of race. Now, Johnny
always said throughout the trial, I cannot

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sit here like this. I can't
effectively communicate with my lawyers. I am

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in pain, I am my back
is killing me. And a couple of

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times he actually wrote a letter to
the judge saying, I'd rather stay in

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San Quentin than come to my own
trial because it's too painful to be in

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these chains for ten or twelve hours
a day. I know eventually you got

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the change drop, and being who
you were at that time, you know,

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not very into this, probably knowing
the backlash you would get to keep

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fighting for that. What was your
thought pattern? Because I can imagine that

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maybe some of your peers is like, hey man, you're fighting the losing

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battle. Why do you even care
so much? This guy's pobably guilty?

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Would it? Anyways? Why was
it so important to you to keep fighting

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to have those changing moved from Johnny? Well, when I first met Johnny

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and then we had some meetings where
all the lawyers and the law clerks and

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the six were all together. You
know, we had a big meeting room

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with maybe fifteen eighteen people. The
one thing that the six guys wanted,

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all men of color, was to
have the chains removed. I mean,

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we were trying to file legal motions
to set aside the indictment, to accuse

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the grand jury of being biased,
to point out that they were involved in

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a conspiracy with people who never got
named, so how the heck can you

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possibly defend against that? And all
kinds of other motions. But the one

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motion that they wanted the most was
what we called the unshackling motion, and

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I did my very best to write
that motion. Now, David, we

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lost that motion in the trial court, and when they went to trial,

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they were in twenty five pounds of
chains. But ultimately that was the reason

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for Johnny's reversal of his convictions,
was because the federal judge Felton Henderson,

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a wonderful federal judge still around now
in his eighties, said that there had

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never been a showing that they ever
needed to be in chain, so why

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were they chained? And he reversed
the conviction that Johnny had on that basis,

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and eventually Johnny was set free and
he's been free now for the last

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thirty four years. So I was
kind of upset. I don't know,

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maybe I'm more upset about it than
you were, as I want to ask

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your opinion. I did find an
article I think he was written sometime I

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want to say ninety sixes talking about
Johnny, and he was saying what he

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was doing. Now, David,
who you mentioned, came up in there.

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But he's seeing he mentioned like everybody, but he didn't mention you.

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If you read that article, were
you upset about that? Well, I

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didn't see that article. Now I
know that there was a biography written about

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him by a law professor in Chicago
named Laurie Andrews, and it only has

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one mention of me. But the
reality is when Johnny got out of prison,

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he still hadn't been paroled on his
original conviction from nineteen sixty seven or

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sixty six, and he needed bail
to be put up, and I put

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up my house and his investigator also
put up her house, and his parole

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plan was to come and live with
my house at my house, which he

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did. He took over my daughter's
room. And there's a picture in the

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book of me and Johnny embracing as
we drove away from Vacaville State Prison on

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the way to San Francisco. In
fact, Johnny and I are still friends.

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I saw recently and we were.
We were just talking about that picture,

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and we both remember exactly where it
was, at a seventy sixth station

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on Red Top Road out on Route
eighty, about halfway between Vacaville and San

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Francisco. I don't mind. I
don't mind that I wasn't mentioned. I

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was one of the many, many
people involved, and there are a lot

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of other things going on, and
I went off at some point and did

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other things. I had the chance
to sit through the trial with the then

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famous Charles Gallery defending Johnny, and
I chose instead to go out on my

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own and a partnership with my mentor
and do criminal defense and a lot of

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prison work. And I never regretted
that, so I said at the beginning,

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this is the book that changed my
life. I don't know if a

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lot of people know how those of
us who haven't readers get ahold of a

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lot of books. Didn't even now, I haven't the readers. We're in

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a number of groups that gives us
arts artis Advanced Readers copies. These are

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books that authors put out and give
their permission for us to read early so

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that we can give feedback on the
book. I got your book through net

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Galley, and when it popped up, I read it and I was kind

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of like, I got to read
this book because I've never known many white

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people in real life to get or
try to understand what we're going through.

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So I ran through the synopsis.
I got to read this book, and

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I'm glad I did because it changed
my life because it lets me see that

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there's somebody else out there that's not
my skin cone, that wants to fight

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for me, that can understand as
much as they can. Now. You

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speak a lot of new book about
white privilege. You talked a lot about

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the George Ford situation. We've been
to Task two over that because a lot

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of white people. We mentioned the
white pillars before, like in our George

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Ford episode, people jumped our case
and said, you don't understand white people

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have a hard time too, And
that's not what we're saying. We understand

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there's just as many white poor people
as there is black or Mexican or for

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people. What is your definition as
a white person of what white privilege is.

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Well, I kind of have two
definitions, David. The first is

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applied to me because I was brought
up in an upper middle class household.

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My parents were physicians. My dad
was from an immigrant family, but they

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laid the star on his behind and
did everything to be able to get them

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through college and medical school. And
so we had a privilege, pretty comfortable

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existence. That's a privileged thing that
doesn't necessarily being white or black or Latino

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or anything else, because there are
black physicians and black middle class kids in

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black and Latino physicians and Latino middle
class kids. But so the other part

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of privilege, to me is a
lot more deep and takes a lot more

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of a difficult road for white for
to understand. And I can sum it

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up in one little part this way. So I was at the gym today,

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played basketball, and I saw my
friend et Cedric, who's been out

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of commission because he got hurt.
And I often think of Cedric when I

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was jogging around downtown San Francisco and
I have my jogging clothes on and be

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dirty and sweaty, and I needed
to use the bathroom to pee, and

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I would get to the door of
a fancy hotel, not at the doorman,

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go right through and head to the
bathroom, no problem. And then

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I would think to myself, almost
every time man If Denzel and his hood.

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He tried to do that, he
gets stopped at the door, despite

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the fact that he's got two advanced
degrees as a special ed and math teacher

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in high school and coaches basketball.
He'd be stopped dead at the door.

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And that says something about white privilege, and it also says something about basic

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racial unfairness. Why is that happening. It's happening because racial animus and racial

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bias runs very, very deep,
and a lot of it is conscious and

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Trump being elected brought a lot of
that stuff out, but a lot of

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that is operating under the surface where
people don't really understand it until you watched

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sedgerec being turned away at the door
of that hotel, and then it clicks

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in. So I tried to be
tuned into that as much as I can

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over time. And I gotta say, as I write about in the book

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David, the whole experience with George
Floyd and the related episodes Beyanna and Tavon

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Martin and all these other folks,
it really taught me a great lesson about

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looking deeper inside myself to realize that
being an anti racist, as Abraham Abraham

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X Candy talks about, is not
enough that white people have to go beyond

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being anti racist to actually try to
understand things better. So before I talk

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to you about one of the case
I want to talk to you about before

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we end this. What you just
said sparks up one of the one of

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my most favorite parts of the book
that you wrote, and I want to

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read that you said. More recently, I realized that the same presumption perception

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also exists outside the courtroom and the
police squeezing the life out of a large

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Staten Island man as he lay on
the ground fighting for breath, and a

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man shooting and killing an unarmed black
teenager wearing a hoodie, and a black

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man being shot seven times in the
back by police officer, or in Chinese

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Americans being spat on on the street
for being the sources of the COVID virus.

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The perceptions made by those at the
scene about Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin,

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Jacob Blake, and countless others are
also based on stereotype presumptions that have

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only been seriously examined. After another
black man, George Floyd, died suffocated

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under the knee of a white policeman. Now over a year after that event,

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some of us may be in danger
of allowing these presumption perceptions to sneak

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back into our consciousness unless we take
serious steps to prevent it. That struck

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me the hardest on a number of
reasons. One, we've done cases on

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all of those people you mentioned.
No, a lot of white people didn't

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even know who they were. And
I'm constantly asked why do I think that

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the George Floyd's situation had such an
impact than these other ones, And my

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answer has always been the same.
It's because we were in the minute,

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in the middle of a global pandemic. You were forced to sit in your

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living room and watch this day after
day after day. They played that knee

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on his neck that eight minutes more
times than I cared to see it.

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His trial was publicized, and I
think at that point in time, people

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of different races understood what we were
going through. We've been called whiners for

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years, or we whind this stuff
don't happen, This stuff don't happen,

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that don't take place. But when
I see somebody of your prestige and somebody

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of your skin tone write that,
it makes me feel hope that there's people

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that they get it. That if
I got in trouble and I needed someone

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not necessarily my skin tone, to
come to my defense. There's at least

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one man out there that I may
be able to call on and say,

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can't you help me? And you're
gonna care about that. So your book

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has changed my light's fundamentally. I
really appreciate those very kind remarks. You

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have anything you want to say,
be far ask him about this last case

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Sneva. I mean, Dad,
listen, you just be out here saying

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everything that I want to say,
but you say it better than me,

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so it's fine. I mean,
all I really want to say is I

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am appreciative of you Richard for coming
on and talk to us, because I

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would not have read this book.
I would not like, I would not

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have read your book if my dad
had not been pasturing me. It felt

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like for weeks. It was probably
only for like a single week, but

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he was like, you have to
read this, you have to read this,

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and I was like, okay,
when it comes out, I'll read

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it. And then he got ahold
of me and he was like, I'm

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gonna try to get you a copy
of this book because Richard's coming on the

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podcast. I was like, okay, well now I have to read the

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book, and I'm glad that I
did. I have not a large one,

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but a small social media presence in
the book community. I do books

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like Instagram that's book related, and
I also do YouTube that's book related.

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And in all of my YouTube videos, I link different books and resources that

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people can read or access to learn
more about being anti racist. And your

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book is added to that list because
I did not have a lot of hope

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about it. And then my dad
was like, you have to read it.

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You have to read And he doesn't
just tell me to read things unless

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they they are meaningful, and this
was meaningful. This was so meaningful.

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I like, I read the book. I talked to my boyfriend about the

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book. My boyfriend is black,
and he was like really, and I

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was like, listen, you're gonna
have to read it, Like I'm going

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to have to buy a physical copy
and put it in his hands for him

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to read it. But I'm just
grateful that you were willing to come on

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here and talk to us, because
I your perspective is a different one,

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and I truly believe a perspective that
people will listen to, but it's also

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backed up by people of color.
That, and it's it's not just your

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book is not just like a white
person trying trying to sound like they understand,

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and like you really do understand.
That's what I'm trying to say.

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Thank you so much, Eva.
And it's a work in progress too,

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00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:15.799
you know. It's like I learned
with Johnny. I can't get inside the

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00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:21.480
adjustment center and I can't get inside
your skin. So I got to just

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do the best I can to appreciate
that and then try to learn as I

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go along. So I don't want
to give away a lot of your book,

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because I do want people to read
it. I endorsed this book every

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time I get a chance to everybody, especially my friends that's going into law,

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00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:38.359
I'm like, if you don't know
how to do law right in what

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00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.839
you should stand up for, you
need to go read this book. But

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the last part of that book deals
with a case that you took on against

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Chrysler, of all people, big
car corporation back then, still is today

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a little hispanic lady just trying to
get what she deserves. What do you

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tell us little bit about that?
How you felt about that? Well,

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sure, you know our client was
a poor Latina who lived in a poor

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section of town, and she had
this van and she was trying to drive

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around a gentle curve on the main
drag in the Latino section of the town

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Mission Street and the Mission of San
Francisco, and she couldn't steer the car.

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She couldn't steer the van and went
across three lanes of traffic and crashed

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into a building. Unfortunately, she
wasn't that badly hurt. She broke her

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leg, simple fracture. But we
knew there was something wrong with the van,

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and we also found out that there
was something wrong with the way they

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had agreed to fix the van.
They recalled the van because of the way

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the power steering housing was too weak, but they fixed it with a fix

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that didn't do any good at all, and so they really made the problem

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worse. She went and she got
to fix at the local drop dodged dealership,

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and she still couldn't drive the car. But the problem was for us

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that she was in a bar,
and the neighborhood bar on a Saturday on

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Mission Street in San Francisco, largely
Latino population. She was there though with

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her kids and husband. They were
having a spaghetti feed because it was a

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Saturday, the fifth of July,
and it was the local gathering place for

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those folks. Chrysler, on the
other hand, thought, Wow, here's

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this poor lady and she's in a
bar. She's got to be drunk.

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And they were so out of touch, and their lawyers were so out of

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00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.720
touch, and they were so elitist
in there. I got to say at

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raggedy asked attitude that they thought that, you know, that was it,

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that was the whole story, despite
the fact that Chrysler had this fix that

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didn't work, and the proof was
there. Improving grounds tests showed that the

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fix didn't work, so they offered
us no money and as a result,

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they forced us out to trial.
And I remember in my rebuttal closing arguments

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saying, you know, maybe the
Chrysler executives get to go out to the

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Gross Point Country Club to celebrate the
fourth of July, and Dora celebrates it

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in the bar and the mission,
but that's not a matter of drinking alcohol.

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That's a matter of where your community
is. And so if you're going

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to take it out on her for
that, you better be really careful.

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And what I didn't understand was we
did a great job in that case,

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00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:48.400
I think. But what I didn't
understand was what a terrible job the Chrysler

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00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:55.359
lawyers did because they totally ignored the
reality of dealing with real people. We

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00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.519
had grease monkey witnesses. We had
a guy who dropped out of school in

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00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:02.920
the eighth grade to work on his
dad's wheel and frame shop, who had

381
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.440
never been in a court before,
and he was our expert on wheel and

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00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:10.599
frame. And they thought that that
guy was gonna be a mess. They

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00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:14.960
called him a grease monkey. They
you know, gave him no credibility at

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00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:18.079
all. You know what, He's
probably the best witness I ever put on

385
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:26.200
the witness stand. Part of the
lesson was treat everybody with respect and treat

386
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.119
everybody on their own where they're coming
from. Don't try to you know,

387
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.160
just as I tried to do with
Johnny Spain. But the other part of

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00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.440
the lesson was, you want to
talk about white privilege, there were some

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00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:44.200
really, really really out of touch
big firm lawyers and Chrysler lawyers who didn't

390
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:48.960
have a clue what it was like
to be an ordinary person. Oh man,

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00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.000
if you when you read that in
the book, you can feel it

392
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.319
too, because, like you say, they were real elitis. It was

393
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.440
almost like they was laughing when you
guys are like, we just gonna go

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00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.839
to trial. They knew they had
this child one and I'm reading the book,

395
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.000
I'm going, all right, Richard, what are you guys gonna have

396
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:06.400
to do to do this? And
then when you came back and this said,

397
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:10.079
we just gotta appeal to people.
And that's what you guys did.

398
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:12.519
You talk to everyday people, like
real people. These guys didn't know what

399
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:15.240
to do, and I was here, going, you're gonna win this case.

400
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.799
You guys did the excellent job in
that case, and it just shows

401
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:23.839
the gament of work in which you've
done standing up for those of us that

402
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:29.480
can't stand up for ourselves. I
don't know. I don't believe that your

403
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:33.720
publicist has shared with you what my
review was. I'd like to share that

404
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.640
with you now and give you a
couple of comments that was made. I

405
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.480
know that you're not on Instagram,
because what we do is when we do

406
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:44.880
reviews on authors books, we search
for them, and you were not there,

407
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.039
but you are. Your name is
hashtag there. So my review said,

408
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.240
everyone wants to feel like justice is
fair for all being a minority.

409
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.160
I know, like most of the
world knows, that justice is not fair

410
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.200
or equal. The problem is those
who we trust to fight for us know

411
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:04.119
it as as well, but most
will not go against the grain to fight

412
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.559
for us. Richard Citron gets it. Trial Lawyer is about a lawyer who

413
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:12.720
spent the bulk of his career fighting
for those who cannot fight for themselves.

414
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:16.599
Richard Citron understood that in most situations, minorities and the poor it cannot only

415
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:21.759
afford proper representation, but still may
not get a fair shake if they did.

416
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.960
The stories he tells in this book
are true and raw, pointing out

417
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:29.640
the wrongs in the legal system and
how he fought to do his part to

418
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:32.440
correct that. You feel this in
the first story he tells about the same

419
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:37.200
Quentin six. Every citizen and every
lawyer needs to read this book. If

420
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.640
I were ever in need of a
lawyer, Richard Citron would be the one

421
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:45.319
I would call. No matter what
side of the justice argument you are on,

422
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.319
do yourself a favor and read this
book. I think everyone can learn

423
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.240
a thing or two from it.
So holy when we get mad. These

424
00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.559
are some of our friends. That's
in a large boot community. But book

425
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:59.319
is Sierra Roebeck and said, I
like lawyers who fight for the underdog.

426
00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:04.519
Cat's creation. Who is the creator
of our groups? Cat's book? Nerds

427
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:08.279
said it's an interesting one book.
Nerd GIN twenty two said, Oh,

428
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:14.000
as an inspiring lawyer, I need
this one. Your book has the potential

429
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:17.880
and I know that it will touch
many, many, many lives. And

430
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.200
to me, I don't know if
you ever read or watched read the book

431
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.359
by John Grissom or watched the movie
A Time to Kill Matthew McConaughey plays the

432
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:32.039
lawyer Jake Brigands in that and as
you know, Samuel Jackson played his client

433
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.880
and he ended up getting him off
from murder in the end. Jake burgans,

434
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:38.000
like yourself, I'm sure, had
to go through a lot of things,

435
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.960
a lot of emotion. He had
death threats, had everything could be

436
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.400
thrown at him, but what was
important to him was that his client was

437
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:52.039
seen as a man, and pointing
out that what happened to him and his

438
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:57.599
daughter, but his daughter being raped
could happen to anyone of any race,

439
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:01.559
in any color. And like you, with many of the synopsis and verdicts

440
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.960
and things you you help to get
in the things that you did it he

441
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.000
understood that is closing argument, which
is the greatest closing argument I've ever heard,

442
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:14.960
whether it's true or not, would
get his client off. And I

443
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.039
personally thank you for writing this book. I know African Americans worldwide is gonna

444
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.119
thank you if they read this book. You truly get it. I am

445
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:27.119
a better person for reading this book, and I am certainly a better person

446
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:30.599
for knowing you. So I think
you've a come on the show today.

447
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:35.119
Well, I just want to say
David and Geneva that I'm a better person

448
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:39.039
for knowing you because the way you
have accepted what I have tried to write.

449
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:44.159
And also, you know, I
think Geneva particularly just you're saying like

450
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:46.159
why should I read this book,
and your dad's telling you you got to

451
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:51.760
read it. I very much appreciate
that you were able to see where I'm

452
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.320
trying to learn, where I'm trying
to move beyond the anti racist and myself.

453
00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:59.639
And it's still a work in progress, and you know I make mistakes

454
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:01.880
along the road, but I'm glad
you were able to see it in a

455
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:12.360
way. I was writing this book
for white progressives who don't entirely get it.

456
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.400
Kind of to try to explain the
road that I have taken. But

457
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:23.880
it's very important and gratifying to me
personally that you two believe that people in

458
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:29.239
the African American community have something to
really get out of this book. And

459
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:35.199
he makes me feel very, very
pleased because that means that I'm coming along

460
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.960
the road to enlightenment about race that
I've been trying to be on for so

461
00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:43.199
long. So I know, you
don't do too terribly, too terribly far

462
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.559
from me just a couple of hours
in San Francisco reading a lot of things

463
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.639
about you know, you don't actively
practice as much. You're doing other things.

464
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:57.599
So what are you doing today?
Well, I have written a bill

465
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.599
called ESP eleven forty nine, the
Public Right to No Act, and I

466
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:07.039
am working on it pretty much daily. It's a bill that's now through the

467
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:12.400
State Senate and we'll go to the
State Assembly in early August. And what

468
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:19.320
happens in that bill is that if
there is a secrecy in the courthouse because

469
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.360
there's an order by the judge to
keep all the information that's exchanged during the

470
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:29.920
litigation process secret or an agreement between
the lawyers, all of that stuff will

471
00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:37.239
be outlawed in cases involving products liability
and environmental hazards. Now, the Chrysler

472
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:43.440
case is what started me down that
road because they thought we were two didn't

473
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:47.239
know anything criminal defense lawyers, who, by the way, make the best

474
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:52.639
criminal defense lawyers make the best lawyers
in my opinion, they gave us nothing.

475
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:54.639
They offered us nothing, and we
went to trial and we got three

476
00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:00.639
point four million dollars. But then
we were able to go on TV on

477
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:06.039
all the consumer affairs shows and explain
how this part didn't work and how the

478
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:09.960
fix didn't work, and two million
Dodge Vans that had this problem, the

479
00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:14.440
owners could figure out a better way
of fixing it, which we could explain

480
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.280
to them. And I realized that
if you settled the case and it's all

481
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:22.800
secret, then the public never knows. So, for example, Oxyconton,

482
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:29.039
which we all know about now,
for fourteen years, Purdue Pharma was able

483
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:35.519
to keep all the information about Oxyconton's
secret, so that the public didn't know

484
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:39.480
and the doctors who were prescribing it
didn't know either about all the lies that

485
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:44.960
the Purdue people had told. This
bill would prevent that because in the very

486
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.400
first case that went to court,
it would have to come out, all

487
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.599
the information that's exchanged would be free
and available to the public, and lives

488
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:57.079
would be saved. So this has
been a big cause of mind, something

489
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.800
I've been working on for over twenty
years, and I think it's my last

490
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:06.440
big one because now I got another
book on the queue, and I'm gonna

491
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:09.159
wind up writing books more than anything
else. Well, whatever you write,

492
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:14.480
I'm reading, I'm actually going back
to read some of the other books that

493
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:17.800
you wrote before this one. I
do want to take this time to think

494
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:23.119
Jane Riley at Smith Publicity. She
is the one who reached out to me

495
00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:27.400
after I wrote the review on your
book on net Galley and ask who I

496
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.920
was interesting having you on the show. So without Jane this interview wouldn't have

497
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:37.760
been possible. She's a sweetheart.
So and you have a very good publicity

498
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.320
coup deity with SMI Pulicity, so
they've been nothing but nice and good to

499
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:45.599
me. So I appreciate that.
That's great. So, Richard, I

500
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:49.159
think you could come on the show
anytime you want to come back feel free.

501
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.280
Anything you write down the pipeline,
you already know that you have two

502
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.920
people that's going to be reading that
book and advocating for you. So we

503
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.719
thank you Ald come on the show
today, and I thank you so much

504
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.639
for having me, David and Geneva. It's been a pleasure getting to know

505
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.320
you, guys. It's been a
pleasure. It has been a pleasure,

506
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:12.039
all right, guys, So we
hope you enjoyed this interview with Professor Richard

507
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:15.960
Citron. Please do yourself a favorite
this year. If you read nothing else,

508
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.920
go pick up Trial Lawyer, A
Life representing People Against Power. It

509
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.960
can be found at Amazon in any
place else that you buy books online or

510
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:30.119
offline. We do think Professor Richard
Shitter will coming today. This has been

511
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:34.800
one of the most important interviews I
think that we've done in the history of

512
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:37.239
this show. I know there hasn't
been a ton of those, but this

513
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:42.519
one would definitely go down as one
of the best and most needed. So

514
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.559
guys, we thank you for tuning
in today. We know you have many

515
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:47.559
choices of true com podcasts. For
the last four and a half years,

516
00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:53.559
we have been one of them.
We hope you are being safe, be

517
00:39:53.679 --> 00:40:00.840
good to yourself and to each other. And there's always don't many crimes out

518
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:05.679
there, so you don't end up
on our podcast. Thank you for listening

519
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:09.119
to A Day with Crime. Artwork
created by Geneva mcclan, Sound mixing and

520
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:15.960
editing done by David mcclan. Join
us on our website www dot a Davidcrime

521
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:21.119
dot com and email us at a
Datewcrime at gmail dot com, where you

522
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:23.880
can subscribe, learn ways to support
the show, and get access to our

523
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:29.320
social media networks. Thank you for
listening and for your support, and as

524
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:34.920
always, A Crime a Day keeps
the doctor away until next time.