136. Employee Appreciation Failure

Gregory Favazza 0:00

Have you ever came across in your work that maybe people are just settling for positions rather than meeting a position that actually allows them to be their full self, and maybe that there's a connection with relationships and their personal life?

Dr. Paul White 0:16

Sure, yeah, and I think we maybe do that at different stages in our life. I mean, I got four kids, I had twins, and that was a brutal time of life, when they were little, and I was just sort of, you know, going through the motions, doing the best I could, but I didn't have a lot to give.

Your Transformation Station Intro 0:33

You're listening to a podcast that encourages you to embrace your vulnerabilities and authentic self. This is your transformation station, and this is your host, Greg Favazza.

Gregory Favazza 0:47

Hey everyone. This is Greg Favazza, host of your transformation station. Today's guest, we have Dr Paul white. He's a psychologist, Best Selling Author and global workplace cultural expert in helping leaders make work, relationships work. I like that. It seems redundant and simple, yet still is a problem to this day. And he's also co authored five languages of appreciation in the workplace with Dr Gary Chapman and his book, he sold over 600,000 copies, been translated into 25 languages, and has led more than 450,000 employees to complete his online assessment. His work is used by organizations such as PepsiCo, Microsoft, NASA, Starbucks, Caterpillar and the male clinics. There's over 1000 colleges and universities across North America, Europe, Asia, South America and the Caribbean. He has trained leaders on how authentic appreciation, not general recognition, actually drives retention, engagement and productivity. Dr White is frequently featured in major outlets including BBC News Business Week, the New York Times, Fast Company and entrepreneurial.com as well as Forbes, his message centers on a simple truth that's backed by research, most employees leave not because of the money, but because they don't feel valued. That resonates with me. I know it resonates with you, because we have experienced a point in our life where there was a lack of autonomy, appreciation and recognition. This episode looks at not just that, but more. His speaking style blends expertise, humor, real world examples, making complex society accessible and actionable for any workplace.

Gregory Favazza 3:01

Now let's get in today's episode.

Gregory Favazza 3:05

There's a whole much more about your history and who you are, and I would love if you can just touch on that a little bit before we start the show today.

Dr. Paul White 3:13

Sure. Yeah, so well, so I grew up in the Midwest, outside of Kansas City, grew up in the context of a family owned business did not go into it because I didn't think it worked. I was the youngest of three brothers, and realized I was always gonna be the youngest so and I had a different skill set. So I'm a psychologist by training, and I've done some different things. I've worked with ADHD and Dyslexic individuals, tested them, and then mid career, I consulted around the country with family owned businesses dealing with the family issues intertwined with running a business and transferring it across generations and through that ran into an opportunity. There's a book called The Five Love Languages that Dr Chapman wrote, and I saw how that that could potentially be sort of translated to help with family owned business and workplace relationships in general. So approached him and we wrote the book in 2011 and developed an online assessment to identify how people like to be shown appreciation, and then training, trained 1300 facilitators across the country, in the world, and so that's why we wrote some other books on toxic workplaces and stuff like that.

Gregory Favazza 4:37

But excellent, that's we're going to dive right into that. There's a lot of things that you said that have resonated with me. I'm the I'm the youngest of seven, so I understand the healthy dynamics and unhealthy dynamics. So yeah, yeah, family and what that can look like. And also worked in family owned establishments, and I witnessed where. Little family drama in real time. And yeah, what that looks like? But you've successfully worked with family owned businesses, and many of them are doing well, like, what is the pattern that you've kept coming across beneath the surface?

Dr. Paul White 5:16

Well that you. One is you got to get the whoever's the current senior owners. You got to get them together, because lots of times, at least in the past, it was sort of the business guy, and he was making all the decisions, and he didn't include his wife in it, until she was supposed to sign the papers. And they didn't include Jeannie, who was, you know, a girl who hadn't worked in the family, that kind of stuff, and then educate the next generation about what's going on. And I was dealing with high net worth families and understanding wealth and how to manage that, and how to parent your kids so they grow up with work ethic and that kind of stuff. So those were some of the key themes.

Gregory Favazza 6:10

Like, when you said, like, educating like, like, what does that have? Because I dealt with that. I'm the youngest of seven, and you would think that everyone would pass along that information of like, obstacles that they've encountered, but they kind of just like, you know what you you got, what it takes, like, you're just enough you can handle.

Dr. Paul White 6:27

Yeah, like, yes, well, I don't know. I think people, especially founders, forget the lessons they learned and the challenges that they had to work through and often, the second generation don't have the same challenges. And that's true, and it's very true, there's just sort of a misunderstanding of what needs to happen or to move on successfully and and keeping decided, deciding how you're going to work with families and businesses. Are you going to emphasize the family part? You're going to emphasize the business part, because you can, you can tear a family apart, or you can blow a business up. Somebody's not doing their job.

Gregory Favazza 7:16

So that's interesting. Would you suggest that you don't go into business with family or, no.

Dr. Paul White 7:20

 I think that it could, yeah, because, I mean, you gotta, you gotta work at it, and, but it can be done because you have common history and usually pretty common values. So that works,

Gregory Favazza 7:35

Just like any relationship, it requires work. And, yeah, I'm sure there's a lot more, and I would love to touch on that as time progresses and stuff throughout this episode. But in your bio, it says, like, number one reason employees leave isn't because of money, that's it goes against a lot of conventional wisdom, like with your research, like, what actually does leaders keep what do they actually keep missing in this scenario?

Dr. Paul White 8:03

Well, lots of times the leaders are pretty business driven, financially driven, and that's what's important to them. But that's not always what's important to the team members and employees. And I mean, we've got decades of research that showed that, you know, paying people more is it or giving them more benefits isn't going to keep them it's really that they need to feel valued and appreciated. And for younger generations, it's a focus on not just what they do or perform, but on who they are as a person, that they're more than just, you know, whatever their role is at work. And older generations tend to miss that.

Gregory Favazza 8:47

So when you're saying, like, older generation talking about baby boomers, and then we're comparing

Dr. Paul White 8:52

The yeah and next generation, and Gen X as well.

Gregory Favazza 8:55

So gotcha, yeah, that's really important to outline for those that are listening now with like, before we get into tools like, what? What's the cost to organizations when employee doesn't feel valued, like, emotionally and financially?

Dr. Paul White 9:10

Well, it's one so huge cost is they leave and then they can't hire people, and so then you have the relationship break of both within the organization, or if they're sales people with their you know their clients, and then you have conflict. You have there's research in different industries. I mean, you have higher rate of injuries reported when people don't feel valued, don't work as hard. There's, you know, sort of the quiet quitting kind of thing that happens. They just sort of go through the motions and don't really get the work done. So it creates lots of productivity and profitability and. So it's, it's clearly an economic and functional cost to the business, because we want people to feel good and all that. But you know, you run business, and so there's got to be a practical issue there.

Gregory Favazza 10:16

So when someone is not feeling valued, I'm guessing it's, it's from appreciation. But then there's also recognition. Is there an actual distinction between the two? And yeah, you can break down the differences in simple terms.

Dr. Paul White 10:31

Yeah. So yeah, employee recognition is largely about performance, and it's comes down through the organization, either the executive team or HR, and it's pretty impersonal, and everybody gets the same thing. And whereas we believe appreciation is about the person, and it's person to person, so it doesn't have to be from your supervisor, lots of times it's peer to peer, which is more important for younger employees. And it's not always about, you know, getting stuff done. It can be about who you are as a person. I mean, that you've got a good sense of humor, or, you know, they they like that. You know, you're running marathons, and you got the discipline to do that, and so be and and also we teach that it's really team member to team member. I mean, top down is helpful, but people really are looking to their colleagues to encourage them. And so employee recognition has been around, still doing it, but turnover is the same rate still going down. Employee engagement isn't there? People are just sort of going through the motion. So it's not really working. And so we found that combining our appreciation with recognition works and makes more functional organizations.

Gregory Favazza 11:58

So like, this isn't anything new that's happening. I'm just wondering, like, why is it still keep happening? And I don't think it has to do with technological advances, with AI, remote work. I mean, I'm sure that plays an aspect in it, but is it something internal that falls down to the individual themself. When I say the individual, the employee, the workforce, versus what the leader is not doing, is there something more deeper than that?

Dr. Paul White 12:31

That's a great question.

Dr. Paul White 12:35

I would say that over time, people and they're sort of split on this, but a lot of people look to work to meet their personal needs. They spend more time at work than they do with family or friends. And so I think that's an underdrive driving current there and and I mean, we sort of shifted values from just, you know, financial success and material success to, you know, living a fuller life. And I think this plays into that, that people, you know, want to have healthy relationships, and not just another a nice car or a boat?

Gregory Favazza 13:22

Yes, so it comes down to a performance driven culture within the organization.

Dr. Paul White 13:29

Yeah, largely yeah and and not understanding that we're people and we have social emotional needs that that play into performance and when people feel valued, research shows that performance and productivity improve as well as profitability. So so then what you're not dealing with? You're not dealing with complaints and stupid little things over what size their monitor is, or whether they got a window, or that kind of stuff.

Gregory Favazza 13:58

So then, I mean, this question came into my head, like, what actually drives, like a performance driven work culture?

Dr. Paul White 14:08

Well, there's a number of things. Partly is a focus on

Dr. Paul White 14:18

Financial success as the only and sole sort of measure of a success of a company. And so everything's measured by that. And so everything that doesn't contribute to that is sort of fat and cut, you know, versus seeing maybe a longer term healthier organization. I mean, look at some organizations that like Chick fil A, I mean, it's, it's known for its, you know, sort of relationship support and, and flip side of that, they don't have much turnover, you know, and, and people are committed. So there it's, yeah, the. The Performance part. I mean, it's a business. You got it. You got to perform. You got to get done. But there's a context that we're not just work units, but we're people too, and that includes communication and expectations and that,

Gregory Favazza 15:17

Yeah, well, I mean, with Chick fil A, I feel like they provide autonomy. I feel like they provide structure that sets them up for the future, not just for this position in particular, and like with my thoughts, with employee disengagement or just exhausting themselves. Do you think it's like, Have you ever came across in your work that maybe people are just settling for positions rather than meeting a position that actually allows them to be their full self, and maybe that there's a connection with relationships and their personal life?

Dr. Paul White 15:55

Sure, yeah, and I think we maybe do that at different stages in our life. I mean, I got four kids. I had twins, and it was a brutal time of life when they were little, and I was just sort of, you know, going through the motions, doing the best I could, but I didn't have a lot to give, you know, and so I think it's a balance of having realistic expectations about work, but also making it more than just a task to get done, you know, and trying to include your full self,

Gregory Favazza 16:30

Okay, like, I want to just touch a little bit on, like, just intimate relationships for a second, if you don't mind, like, I know we all have blind spots to things. I mean, I'm an organizational development specialist, first, Father, boyfriend, that all comes into play. So I see things women don't, and women see things that men don't, and nobody's to blame. But what do we get to a point where I can say and suggest my opinion, my value, and it be approached and makes me feel understood, but also vice versa for the receiving end, whether it's male or female?

Dr. Paul White 17:20

Well, I mean, you know, there are different types of relationships and they have different dynamics. I mean, that's part of the difficulties of family businesses, right? But my wife, for a while, I had a psychological practice, traditional counseling practice, and she was the office manager, and we just found that it didn't work for us, because I'd come home and at dinner, I'd be talking to her about work stuff, and sort of, you know, I was the owner and leader of the business, and she was my assistant, so I was always sort of talking down, you know, and that doesn't work long term in most marriages. And so we decided, you know, we'd rather be married than be business partners. So she stepped out of that. I got an office manager, and because the dynamics are different,

Gregory Favazza 18:11

And I can see that, because when you're constantly I mean talking down to her, she's not feeling equal. And at what point, when does it turn off? Because we have trouble turning off work as it already is, but Right? The fact that you have your own business, it's like, I bet you had to really put a lot of effort into see things from a mutual perspective,

Dr. Paul White 18:33

Yeah, and I wasn't very good at turning it off, so we had to go the other direction.

Gregory Favazza 18:38

Yeah, people that really take pride in themselves and excel in life. Have a difficulty doing that, yeah? But like, what about the origin story of the five level Love Languages at work? What is that all about?

Dr. Paul White 18:52

Yeah. So I was working consulting with a family owned business in North Carolina and talking to the dad and asking him how the succession plan was going and said, It's fine, my son's stepping up. I think it'll work. I walk across the hall asked the son the same question. He said, This is a disaster. It's never going to work. I can't ever please my dad. And I thought, you know, my wife and I were reading The Five Love Languages by Dr Chapman at that point, and I thought, under this we could translate this to work based relationships. So I pursued him. Took me a year to get through to him, and sort of pitched the idea. And because I was a psychologist, but also working with businesses, and we had some other similar backgrounds that, you know, he chose to work with me. And so we, you know, the five languages of appreciation are the same in name as the five blood languages. So words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, tangible gifts and and physical touch. And we created an online assessment that identifies people. This language, but also the specific actions, because you can get the the language right, but miss it by like, especially in words, doing things publicly when the person doesn't want to be praised publicly. So you need to get the action right, and then be able to identify to a team how each other like to be shown appreciation and and help them implement that. So we've been fortunate. It's gone well. We've sold 800,000 plus books, and 450,000 people have taken our online assessment. It's in about eight or nine different languages, and we have certified facilitators to help organizations apply it.

Gregory Favazza 20:43

So were you able to recognize the difference between companies prior to implementing the five languages to post, and what was something that you've recognized that stood out?

Dr. Paul White 20:55

Yeah, so Well, actually, we have research shows that when team members heal value, you know, absenteeism goes down, coming in late to work goes down, conflict goes down, productivity goes up, profitability goes up. So it's sort of like clearing out, you know, a lot of things that get in a way, so that you can focus your time and energy on the mission of the organization, and are more efficient that way. So yeah, we had piece written about us in the New York Times, work we did with a mining company. You wouldn't think miners are big, like verbal appreciation people, but, but, you know, these guys and gals, but mainly guys took to heart, because we talk about authentic appreciation, not just sort of going through the motion, just saying stuff, yeah, but they, we have symbols for each language, and they actually got the symbols printed and put on their hard hat so they could see When they were working with guys and and so and they continue to, in fact, they make it part of their onboarding process that people take the assessment when they get past probation and and then go through the training,

Gregory Favazza 22:13

You would think there'd be some difficulty with the type of leadership that is requiring your services, because I'm assuming it's an old school mentality where, I mean, appreciation really isn't at the top of their like, of their idea of what we need to be doing. We need to reduce the numbers, we need to save money, we need to do this.

Dr. Paul White 22:34

And, yeah, so things about appreciation, as opposed to employee recognition, is it doesn't cost a lot because, I mean, it's, you know, it's words, it's time, acts of service. There's gifts, but the gifts that we're talking about are not like big bonuses or anything. It's just small stuff that show that you're getting to know your colleagues. It's, you know, maybe their favorite cup of coffee you bring that in the morning or in the afternoon, maybe a snack or a magazine about their favorite sports team. You know, it's just really a person at a personal level, so the cost isn't much, aside from just some time to learn about it, get an assessment done and then implement it.

Gregory Favazza 23:15

Have you came across a company where there they the turnover wasn't as drastic as you would hope, and if you did what was something that was difficult for them to kind of like

Dr. Paul White 23:30

Explain your question a little bit for me.

Gregory Favazza 23:34

As far as sharing them with this information, as far as appreciation versus recognition and With what your book entails about the five languages, appreciate

Dr. Paul White 23:42

It didn't have that much impact? Yes, oh yeah, sure. So one of the deals is that, you know, we, we don't force people to participate, because that undermines the perceived authenticity. So there's some people who's like, this is, you know, this is stupid, you know, they should just work. And I just ask those people say, hey, you know, I understand it just, if you just stand to the side and not be, you know, sort of obstructive. And we actually sort of win them over over time, because we're focusing on being genuine and and that's helpful. And then there are some people that are more difficult to appreciate than others, right? They're sort of prickly, and you know, it's like, what do you do? And and so in our training, we have a half day training program. We take teams through and teach them how to deal with that, and largely, you make sure you know what they do, and find out from their team members what they're good at, and and then also, lots of times it's just helpful to spend some time with them, get to know them, where they came from. Lots of times we don't understand people from different backgrounds, and so we misinterpret things. And so that sort of helps us get past that. And. Move forward.

Gregory Favazza 25:01

So for our younger audience, who looks at who are tech savvy and is utilizing AI, why won't AI or perks or a better system solve employee disengagement, or if appreciation is missing?

Dr. Paul White 25:19

Well, because we're people and we're social.

Dr. Paul White 25:24

I mean, I'm just straight, you know, and, yeah, and, you know, AI can be helpful, and, you know, getting a lot of other things done, but, but people want to know that they're valued and what they're doing. I mean, you don't want to just go and spend your time and energy and do stuff and nobody cares. You know, it's like you have to be praised all the time. One of the things we find is that once you identify a person's language and actions that's important to it doesn't take that much to help them feel satisfied. It's not like you have to praise them all the time. But if, if they're like we found in, you know, over the hundreds of 1000s people have taken it that over 50% of the people in the workforce don't really value words. So if you're complimenting and praising people, you're sort of wasting your time and energy, whereas if you stop by and chat and see how they're doing, they'll both time with them, or help them out with you know, the end of the day, clean up the job site, or any kind of little thing. It can make a difference. So it's really about getting the right language and action that makes a difference. And it's pretty cool to see over time how things really move forward.

Gregory Favazza 26:44

So what do they value that you came across?

Dr. Paul White 26:48

Well, it just varies from person to person. And that's sort of the tough thing. I mean, so, like, about, you know, about 50% of people are introverted and sort of shy. Those people don't want to be brought up in front of a big group and praised in front big group. I mean, it's the worst thing for them. So if you do that, you've actually sort of created a negative rather than a positive. So whether they might prefer to get just a personal note or an email from their supervisor and what they value about them, or going out to lunch together. So it's, it really is about the individual. And one of the things that we found is that, you know, it's too much responsibility for the leader to carry on themselves, to show appreciation everybody. So that's why we teach team members as well as the leaders, how to show appreciation. And actually, most team members you know, want to be able to show appreciation you know, a colleague that's helped them out or doing a good job. So it's not all just top down.

Gregory Favazza 27:52

So you would say the biggest blind spot leaders have is showing appreciation. Or would you have something a little more?

Dr. Paul White 28:00

Well, I would say the first one is they, I think they go to money first and that, you know, if you pay people more, which actually is a problem, if you're in a business, you have to keep raising raises. We know that, you know people, yeah, if you get a raise or bonus, it sort of perks you up for maybe a couple months, but after that it goes away. So do you have to keep doing that? Well, that doesn't work for your business model. All of a sudden you pay, paid people a lot of money. And so first they go to money, and then second they go to words in public, words, which doesn't work for a lot of people. And then, and then, I think they if, if they they can get discouraged because it feels overwhelming for them to do it all themselves, versus being able to to train the team members how to show appreciation.

Gregory Favazza 28:52

I like that. I feel like we covered a lot of unique aspects, from leadership and organizational reality checks to the results and the case studies, but something specific for me that I would love to address would be for those that don't understand like the difference between like intensity and intimacy and how that affects a relationship. I'm sure there's definitely a connection with not just personal relationships, but also platonic and professional. If you could just touch on that a little bit.

Dr. Paul White 29:25

Yeah, well, so intensity. You know, I worked with a guy who's a great guy, but he and he was a verbal guy, and he praised everybody all the time and but at some point it was just like, George, I got it. But can you help me out with this project? You know, I mean, it was just, like, too much of the same thing. And really, it's interesting how it's sort of, like, I don't know, in physical health, it's, you know, you get a little bit of the right vitamins. And. And chemicals, and you got a balance there, you know, versus, you know, just taking vitamin C, and, you know, you're, you're getting acidic over that, but it's, and people talk about consistency, it's really, you know, once a year a performance reviews. Review is not going to get it done or, you know, twice a year. I mean, it's part of the rhythm of life. It doesn't need to be daily, you know. And you don't have to throw a party that they showed up, you know. But just, you know, occasional reminders, and especially newer employees, or they're in a new position, probably need a little more at the beginning to feel like they're supported and building confidence, and then after a while, it can spread out.