Nov. 24, 2025

067 - Amanda Headlee on This Is How a Villain Is Made

067 - Amanda Headlee on This Is How a Villain Is Made

Please rate and review Weird Reads on Apple Podcasts or rate on Spotify! Amanda Headlee and I had such a fun conversation. We discussed space horror, cosmic horror, Todd Keisling, literary horror, Amanda's horror origin story, creating your own...

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Please rate and review Weird Reads on Apple Podcasts or rate on Spotify!

Amanda Headlee and I had such a fun conversation. We discussed space horror, cosmic horror, Todd Keisling, literary horror, Amanda's horror origin story, creating your own mythos, and her latest release, This Is How a Villain Is Made. Watch and listen to the discussion ad-free on Patreon!

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WEBVTT

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Hello, and welcome to Weird Reads. I'm your host, Jason White,

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and today I have a new guest, Amanda Hedley is

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with me and we I'm very happy to have you.

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Do you mind giving yourself a quick introduction?

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Sure? Yeah, I'm Amanda Headley. I like to call myself

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a crafter of dark fiction, and so I'm very happy

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to be here with you today.

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Awesome. I was so excited. It was funny because I

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was talking to Todd Keasley and I asked a question like,

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who do you think people should be reading but they're

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not talking about enough? And he mentioned you, and so

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I said, okay, I wrote your name down. I was like,

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Amanda Headley, okay. And then I was talking to Candice

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Nola and she mentioned you again, and at that point

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I had already gotten your book and I was planning

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on reading it. I was like, Okay, if I can

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get her on the show, I can read her book.

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And because you know, a lot of the books I

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read are for this show, and so I was happy

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to be able to get that in. Your book is

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so good. But we'll get to that soon. So yeah,

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thank you for joining me. The first question I have, though,

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is it's always the same question, and so what is

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your horror origin story?

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Oh, I think I was born into this world as

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a horror and it's just I've always just been drawn

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to two darker themes, darker stories. I don't know, it's

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just it's always been in me. I remember, even as

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a child, always going to the movies, the TV shows,

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the book books, the head monsters. Like I'm an obsessive

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dinosaur fan, so you know, I always love reading books

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about dinosaurs and monsters. So it's just I think it's

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just always been in me. I was born in this

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world to be a part of the horror realm awesome.

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When I was a kid, from until about the age

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of eight or nine, I was terrified of anything that

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just doesn't make any sense. I was afraid, for example,

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of that old Incredible Hulk show.

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Oh with Oh my gosh, his name just went right

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out of my head.

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But yeah, I think something like that. Yes, whenever the

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guy who played the Hulk though, or you know, the

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character before he became the Hulk, whenever his eyes turned

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like that golden green color, I was I was out

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of the room.

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It was always creepy.

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Yeah, but you know, once I turned nine. It was

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like I watched my first horror movie and it was

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game over. But I find it interesting because either people

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embraced it right away or or they're like me, they

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were terrified of it. But you know, I'm glad that

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you liked it from the beginning. Do you remember Do

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you remember how I do?

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Yeah? Well, it was books. There's a lot of books

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that I remember as my first read for her, so

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it's really hard to go back to that. But I

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remember the first movie that I saw, and it was

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a made for television movie of Alice in Wonderland Alice

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through the Looking Glass nineteen ninety eight version. It's the

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one with Carol Channing in it, and the jabberwock. Like

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I remember being so terrified of the jabberwock but not

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being able to look away from it, and even like

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running up the steps and kind of hiding behind the

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banisters to watch it, or running and hiding behind the

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arm of the sofa to watch it. It's still it's

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so vivid in my mind still to this day. And

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I had to have been probably like four. I was

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probably like three or four when it came out, because

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I think it aired in like eighty six, so probably

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I was probably like three, well, yeah, I would have

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been three at that point. But I still remember it

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so vividly and having a very active imagination about it,

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where it like would live in my mirror, in my

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closet so I could never go into my closet without

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turning lights on, or because I was a lucky kid

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where I had a huge walking closet as a child,

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and I remember always throwing my shoes at the mirror

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and things like that, trying to like keep the jabber

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walk in the mirror because I didn't want to go

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into wonderland. Wonderland though in this day and age, I

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would not mind that happening.

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Yeah you know, it might be a better world over there.

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Yeah. Yeah, Sometimes I'm like, hello, can you come get

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me now?

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Really there might not be any orange tyrants running around

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destroying everything.

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Exactly exactly, just a crazy red queen. That's it.

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Do you remember the books that, like the first horror

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authors that you started reading.

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I remember reading Salem's a Lot very young, and uh,

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it's so funny. It's like whenever people ask me this,

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it's like my mind just suddenly goes blank.

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I have that Yeah, that happens to me.

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Yeah, there was a couple of Joyce curlots that I read.

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When I was younger. I was really obsessed with the

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Garth Knicks ab Horson series, which was like Necromancy. It's

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kind of more young adult fantasy, but it was heavy, heavy, heavy,

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with the dark tone of horror. So I've always loved

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that series. I still read it today. Yeah, there's it's

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Jurassic Park. I read Jurassic Park when I was in

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the sixth grade, and like I still that is my

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annual read. I read it every single year because it's

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just still a classic favorite. So yeah, anything that I

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could get my hands on, the head the darker tones,

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that's usually what my bookshelves were filled with, much to

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my mom's sugar.

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In you know, Jurassic Park. I've seen that movie so

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many times that I don't know if I can. I

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don't know if I because I used to be with

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a person who had kids, and their kids watched that

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movie at least ten twenty times while I was in

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that relationship, and then I got into a different relationship

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and we had our own kid, and he watched that

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movie endlessly. I don't know if I can read the

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book now. I really should have read it early on.

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Oh, no, read it because I saw the movie when

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I came out in ninety three, like my dad took

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me to Opening Night when it came out, and then

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I would have read the book a couple of years later.

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And it's just it's so different than the movie. I

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really wish they would make a true adoption to it.

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Yeah, oh okay, maybe I will say.

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It's fantastic, and then the sequel, The Lost World, is

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equally as great. It's not. I think there's just like

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a few elements that they pull from that book for

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the movie. But the movie both books are fantastic, excellent.

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You know, I might check it out then, I because

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you know, I watch a lot of book Tube and

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TikTok or book talk, whatever you want to call it,

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and people talk about that book and they say how

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great it is, but they never mentioned that it's different

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from the movie. So I always just assumed it was

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a really good close setup take because of the movie's really good.

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Right, Oh, the movie's fantastic, and it was definitely a

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game changer in cinema. I also know that movie very

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much off my heart because I probably watch it. I

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still watch it every few months, even though you know,

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I've seen it a billion times. But yeah, the movie itself,

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like there are some alignment, like there's resemblance to both,

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you know, between the book and the movie. But I've

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noticed like in the newer Jurassic World films they start

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pulling like little snippets, like there's a beautiful river scene

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and it's absolutely horrific in the book that I feel

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like they kind of did a little bit of finally

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in the Jurassic World Rebirth movie where it's a little

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bit of a homage to that, but still it just

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it's wasn't still done on the same skills what it

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is in the book.

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That would be interesting if they were to adapt it

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into uh, you know, a little more to what the

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book is. So yeah, I'm gonna have to check that

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out now because I need to know.

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Definitely do. And it's funny which characters actually die and

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which ones actually really versus the movie.

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Yep, God, okay, you got me interested. I wrote it

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down in my notes here. I'm gonna definitely check it out.

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I don't think I don't think I've read anything by

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that author. What's what's is the author Michael Crichton. Michael Crichton, Yes, yeah.

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But Kungo's another good book, Like he has a lot

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of books that I really like.

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I want to read Sphere too.

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I just love the idea is fantastic. Yeah, and then

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if you haven't seen the movie, watch the movie after.

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Oh is it good too?

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It's it's it's okay, but it's still it's it's I love.

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I always love seeing the difference between the movies and

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the books.

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Yeah, yeah, all right, As I mentioned, well, looking into

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you for the podcast for this discussion here, I listened

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I think to like two or three episodes, the most

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recent ones I could find anyway, and you mentioned this

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every time, and I learned that you were a fan

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of cosmic horror, and I'm also a cosmic horror fan,

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so I want to know what it is that draws you.

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To It's it's that, Oh, there's so much to it's.

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Part of it is is the level of the unknown

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of what's really out there in the grander scheme of

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the universe, Like what is out there is obviously bigger

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than us. Yeah, and it's weird. I was just at

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VOIDCN a couple of weeks ago on the cause my

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horror panel, and it's like we were talking about character

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insignificance and are we really that insignificant in the grander

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scheme of the universe. So it's it's it's a dichotomy

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that I'd be like kind of assessing a little bit

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more to like see how insignificant we are, because you know,

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if you if you look at at like the food

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chains and the life cycles of nature here on Earth,

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every little bit of the food chain cycle has meaning

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to the end goal or you know, to a greater species.

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So you know, we really wouldn't survive very well here

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without honey bees and other pollinators, you know. So it's

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like now I'm kind of like shifting my focus as

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into what do we as human beings bring to the universe,

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which I have no answer because I'm still like we

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are nothing but us specadert in in this endless cosmos.

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So so that's been kind of like brewing in my

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head these past couple of weeks since the panel that

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I was on at Voydcon. But it's also like what

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I love about cosmic kor is is the playing with

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the different kind of gods out there and that there's

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always something greater. There's always a bigger baddie, there's well

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and they're not necessarily a batty. They're just out there

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doing their thing. We as humans just see them as

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a baddy because it doesn't align to our reality or

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our goals. So it's just like, I just find all

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that so fascinating and just the the unknown, limitless possibilities

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that we as authors can have with cosmic worr because

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we could we can make up anything and it could

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be right true enough.

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I want to go back to humanities insignificance in terms

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of the universe. I've heard a scientist say something along

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the lines of, uh, you know, we're conscious beings and

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some of us are smart enough to learn about space,

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and so in a strange sort of I don't know

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what you call it, but a strange sort of result

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of this, as we are, you know, we are Stardust

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as as Sagan has said, So we are made of

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the universe. So we're basically the universe observing itself. Maybe

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that's maybe that's our significance.

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Maybe we are the conscious universe observing ourselves. Wow, you know,

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black hole.

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I've often thought about consciousness itself because it's a it's

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a strange thing, right, and you have to wonder how

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did the universe exist without anyone to observe it? Considering

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some uh, some scientists, you know, some of their studies

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about observation and whether it exists or not unless it's observed.

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But oh, we're going down a different hole now, I know,

228
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because I'm.

229
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Starting to say, well, are we sure that we're the

230
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first observers? You know what? We don't know how? I mean,

231
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if the universe has been infinite and existing for endless

232
00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:26.759
time again, what is time? But we can't be the

233
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only life out there. We can't be the only life

234
00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:32.559
that's ever been or ever was so or ever will be.

235
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So there's an all matter would be made of the

236
00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:43.000
same elements throughout the universe. And I'm assuming those other

237
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creatures out there would be conscious obviously, so they would

238
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be observing the observable universe too. Okay, now I'm starting

239
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to get like, you know, it's like you just kind

240
00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.919
of your brain goes numb and you start to stare

241
00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:00.519
at the walls, and that's before you see.

242
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This is why I want to talk about this with you,

243
00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.080
because not too many well I know, people who like

244
00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.399
cosmic horror, but when you're like a big fan of it,

245
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.600
you get excited about, you know, all the little nitty

246
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.000
gritty parts. So I want to I want to ask

247
00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.919
you a question about consciousness. Do you think in terms

248
00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:21.600
of cosmic core? Do you think that consciousness could be

249
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.080
a form of cosmic horror on its own?

250
00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.240
Yeah, I mean I'm trying to think of how i'll

251
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.840
say this. So, so we're all energy, I mean that's

252
00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:39.120
all life is energy, and so like your consciousness is

253
00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.919
just basically energy that I feel like I'm about to

254
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.440
say something and it's gonna like I got to write

255
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:53.559
it down, But like your consciousness, it's just energy. It's

256
00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:59.279
it's like energy is never destroyed and it's just always ongoing.

257
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And so I think that consciousness is just relative to

258
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:16.720
the two this existence. Yeah, but it's like now I'm like, well,

259
00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.399
if all things are made of matter, and you know,

260
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:23.120
atoms are performed, you know, producing some form of energy,

261
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.600
you know, in the molecular state, what gives us the

262
00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.639
right to have consciousness and not say, like the lamp

263
00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.879
that's sitting next to me. Yeah, now I'm going down,

264
00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:39.480
I'm spiraling. That's not something people need to see, as

265
00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:40.679
me spiraling.

266
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.080
That keep you up all night.

267
00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:45.799
Yeah, which will be So I have to find my

268
00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:47.799
notebook and keep it next to the bed because i'll

269
00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:49.919
twenty times in the middle of night. And then I'll

270
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.919
start researching because I need to like make sure I'm

271
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:57.720
looking at the right theorems and different theories that are

272
00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.159
out there.

273
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.200
Yeah. I find this fasting stuff and it's stuff I

274
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.279
think about, probably a little bit too much.

275
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.799
Uh the same, yeah, same.

276
00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.559
Do you have any favorite cosmic core authors or stories?

277
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.000
Uh? Again, I was just talking about this set at

278
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.480
Big Con, but I absolutely love Aldron on Blackwood. The

279
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:27.159
Willows is by far my favorite cosmic CORR story because

280
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:32.440
it's I feel like it's very tightly tied to Earth

281
00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:37.360
as a being a part of the grander cosmic scheme.

282
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.960
So I don't know if you if if if you're

283
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:43.159
aware the story of the Willows but or if you've

284
00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.200
brought it. But I've read it, okay, all right. So

285
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:51.200
it's so it's just like the main character and his friend,

286
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:56.559
the sweet like they're just very much pulled pulled into

287
00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.120
like this other realm. While I believe it was the

288
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.559
Danube that you know, they're just they're just out in

289
00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:08.079
the canoe and they're experiencing this otherness that they don't

290
00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:13.400
quite know what it is. And the otherness is being

291
00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.759
born of these willow bushes, which you know, willow bushes

292
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:25.079
are very natural species of plant life alongside a lot

293
00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.279
of rivers. So it's just like the way that those

294
00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:33.640
willow bushes are acting, you know, is you know, it's

295
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:39.559
it's uncanny to those characters. And then when I like

296
00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:41.599
start to think about that one, then I start thinking

297
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:47.319
about other creatures that are very uncanny, like octopi. Octopi

298
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:51.200
are very unique. Same thing with bees, you know, they're

299
00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:57.640
very unique creatures compared to other animals that exist on

300
00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.079
this planet. So it's just like, I just love how

301
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.839
Blackwood took something so ordinary and made it extraordinary like that.

302
00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.680
Yeah, and weird, like and weird. Ye the book, I remember,

303
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:12.880
it's not but it's more.

304
00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:15.680
Of a it's a short story.

305
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:17.480
Yeah, it might be a novelette.

306
00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.000
At the most, but yeah, i'd say a novelette.

307
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:23.000
Yeah. I remember it starts off I mean, if you

308
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.400
like travel logs, sort of, it starts off like that.

309
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:28.799
And then they stay on that island where the river

310
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.440
sort of splits off, and uh, and that's when things

311
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.599
start going really weird and then it just it, it

312
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.400
just goes there. And I absolutely loved it.

313
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.240
Yeah, it definitely does. So I'm I'm a big fan

314
00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:47.839
of Blackwood, probably more recent authors, I mean obviously Todd

315
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:52.599
and all his eldritch cosmic horror that he writes about,

316
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:58.160
with Devil's Creek and his upcoming book that I'm trying

317
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.880
to think if he had announced it yet. So yeah,

318
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.759
he's announced it. I'm not going to say anything. I've

319
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:09.680
read bits of it. It's fabulous, But I he's building

320
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:13.640
a mythos that's pretty incredible. Mary san Giovanni, the Queen

321
00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:18.759
of Cosmic CORR, She's She's incredible. Haley Piper, I just

322
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:24.400
love what everybody's doing in creating their own realms. And

323
00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.160
that's like the big thing I'd love with cosmic Core

324
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:27.960
because I'm kind of doing it with my own work,

325
00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:31.759
is we're building our own mythos. We're building our own

326
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:38.799
uh kind of world with our skew of cosmic core,

327
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.160
our interpretation of cosmic core. What what does cosmic horror

328
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.480
mean to us? And I think a lot of it

329
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.799
is how it affects us on an existential level.

330
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.640
Yeah. Uh, do you find that, you know, creating your

331
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:54.839
own mythos? This is something that I've noticed with my

332
00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.200
own work. It's just a lot of it. It's just

333
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:03.720
like connections that you didn't necessarily intend. Did you find

334
00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:06.519
Do you find like as you write, like, I have

335
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.039
a fictional town that mirrors the real town that I

336
00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:18.640
live in, and that's part of my mythical reality. But

337
00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.359
I didn't intend that. The reason why that happened was

338
00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:25.440
because the town I live in is called Angus, but

339
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:27.920
it used to be called Pine River and they changed

340
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.480
it in like nineteen forty or something like that, and

341
00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:32.359
I was like, why did they change it to Angus?

342
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:32.680
It?

343
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.359
Pine River sounds so much more, especially for horror writer, right,

344
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.640
I agree, pine River? Is it? Right? So I started

345
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.359
writing stories in Pine River, and then I would start

346
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.200
writing stories in Angus, and suddenly they're kind of connecting. Right.

347
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:48.680
Do you find something similar happening with your own work?

348
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:50.279
Yeah?

349
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.960
And it's more like, so I have a fectual town

350
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.720
that is in the Poconos kind of northwest of the

351
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.680
jim Forbe area, because I tell you there's something with

352
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:06.000
that area. There's something. Absolutely, I don't know if it's

353
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.000
haunted or cosmic, like, it's just there's energy there that's unbelievable.

354
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.720
And I called my fictional town Demos, which is, you know,

355
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:17.480
one of the moons of Saturn is also a god

356
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.559
in I think Roman mythology. Someone's probably a fact check me.

357
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.880
That's really Greek mythology. So I apologize. I probably have

358
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:30.559
messed that up, but it yeah, I have a fictional

359
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:35.839
town there, and it's not like I intend to connect

360
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.839
everything back to Demos, but all roads are seemingly leading

361
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.440
back to Demos in some way, shape or form. I

362
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:49.759
don't know the endgame yet, but it's I've noticing a

363
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:57.559
lot of my larger works, I'm subconsciously writing in connections

364
00:21:57.640 --> 00:21:59.960
that I have to then go back and after I've

365
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.759
finished the draft, I'm like, oh my gosh, that person

366
00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:07.480
links to this or this links to that, and then

367
00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.880
I have to go and update my master or gromoire

368
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:13.759
so that you know, I can keep track of it all,

369
00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:15.359
because it's starting to get to the point where I'm

370
00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:17.440
not able to keep track of it in my head anymore.

371
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.720
Yeah, So do you have like an you mentioned a notebook,

372
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:23.119
Do you have like a notebook that's specific to this

373
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:23.960
type of thing.

374
00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:28.759
I did, but it started to spider way about too

375
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.039
much that notebooks are too linear for me. So I'm

376
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:35.039
actually looking at a couple different apps to start using

377
00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:38.519
to help me bridge that gap. Also, I can't carry

378
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.119
a notebook with me on all my travels because I'd

379
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.759
have fifty notebooks. So I'm trying to like figure out

380
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.319
how to move to a more digital presence with this,

381
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.559
so that I have like everything on my iPad because

382
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:53.359
it's starting to be I carried everything with me on

383
00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:56.319
this last trip that I went overseas and my backpack

384
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:57.960
was way too heavy, and I'm like, all right, I

385
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.799
need to like get everything digital because it's starting to

386
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:01.759
become too much.

387
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:05.400
Yeah, that's what I do. I kind of wish I

388
00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:09.079
would I use notebooks like you see me sometimes writing

389
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:14.039
stuff down while I'm talking to people, But everything else

390
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:19.640
goes on my on my cell phone, right, so yeah,

391
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.880
it's it's easier, right, I can't carry books everywhere I go.

392
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.160
Yeah. Yeah, I hate that it's coming to that because

393
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:31.079
I I feel like, I I don't know if it's

394
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.200
like I contemplate things more, for it becomes more ingrained

395
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:39.920
in my brain when I handwrite it versus typing it out.

396
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.319
But I love to handwrite things, but it's just getting

397
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:45.480
to the point where I can't because it's just it's

398
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:46.480
it's too much.

399
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.640
Yeah. I find that I remember things better too if

400
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:53.799
I write it down rather than type it out. But yeah,

401
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:59.039
it's you know, it's it's it's not always available either, right.

402
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.160
Sometimes sometimes you're in a place you don't have a notebook,

403
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:03.960
you don't have paper. All you have is your phone,

404
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.240
so that I know, I know.

405
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:09.759
It's it's like, you know, I've got There were times

406
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.039
when you know, I'd try to find I remember like

407
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.039
one time I was hiking and I was trying to

408
00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:17.039
be like, oh I have nothing, let me try to

409
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:18.480
write with mud on my hand.

410
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:22.000
But oh god, yeah yeah, and just write it on

411
00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:24.279
your skin. Yeah.

412
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:26.799
It was like it was like can I cut myself

413
00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:28.359
and write in blood? And I'm like, all right, that's

414
00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:30.240
a little too far. And then next thing, you know,

415
00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:32.519
you'll be invoking something you don't want to invoke, so

416
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:33.640
let's just not go there.

417
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.359
Yeah that that might not be a good idea.

418
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:38.319
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

419
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.839
So for listeners who are new to your work, how

420
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:46.759
would you how would you describe your writing and what

421
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.039
kind of horror do you write?

422
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:53.400
Yeah, I feel like my writing is evolving from where

423
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.000
I started, so, like I really love psychological and obviously

424
00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:02.359
cosmic horror, so so I'm really going to stay within

425
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:08.240
that vein for the time being. But I'm like, I

426
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.440
feel like the first stuff that I had put out

427
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:20.400
was very steeped and heavy in horror, and then some

428
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:22.440
of the things that I'm working on now, I feel

429
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.440
like is very The one book I'm working on now

430
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:28.839
is very dark sci fi. So I feel like I'm

431
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:35.839
starting to evolve because I've always been interested in science,

432
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.599
Like I was going to school for my degree in macrobiology,

433
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:43.039
between starting off and marine biology and ending in macrobiology

434
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:46.440
and you know, stumbling my way through zoology and astronomy

435
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.519
at one point, Like I changed my major like fifty

436
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.359
times as I tried to find myself, even though I

437
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.200
ended up with an English degree. It's I've always been like,

438
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.400
very steeped in the sciences. I love the sciences, and

439
00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:02.039
so I feel like I'm kind of moving to that

440
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.960
place of where can I start really tying the sciences

441
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.079
in with horror. And it's not so much the horror

442
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.640
aspect of science, but it's more of that the unknown

443
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:19.000
again going back to cosmic horr it's what we don't

444
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:23.079
know may hurt us. And so it's like a lot

445
00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.039
of my stuff is, well, what if this happens? And

446
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.759
then this chain reaction kind of thing. So I feel

447
00:26:28.759 --> 00:26:33.079
like my writing's starting to evolve. Like with my last

448
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:35.279
novella that came out, I was just very angry at

449
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.759
the world. So that's what that novella was from, and

450
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:41.599
you know, some personal circumstances in my life at the time.

451
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:46.359
That was very angry book. But I think now I'm

452
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:50.559
kind of moving to a place of what kind of

453
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.319
scientific facts can we bring to life and spin it

454
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.599
into fiction? Yeah, that's early fiction.

455
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.759
Yeah, that novella that you released that you were really

456
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.559
angry at the world, is that this is how a

457
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:06.559
villain is made?

458
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:07.920
Yes it is.

459
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.599
That was an angry book. But we'll get to that

460
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.559
very Actually, I just want to ask one more question

461
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:17.079
before we get to that. I just want to know

462
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.680
how does a story start for you? Is it the

463
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:23.680
characters that come first, or the what if scenario or something?

464
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:27.799
Actually it's always the ending. Oh really nice, And I

465
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:31.559
guess that kind of leans to that what if but

466
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:35.920
it's like I will have an absolutely horrific thought and

467
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.160
then I'm like, how did I get to that point?

468
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.240
And then you know, you go back and you work

469
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:43.160
through it and you burn characters to life and you

470
00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:46.240
kind of start establishing the plot. But it's always like

471
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.920
I'm trying to think of something without spoiling it, without

472
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.799
spoiling any my work. But like the I had a

473
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:01.000
short story come out in January in Strange Moon's Anthology,

474
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:04.000
which is a spin on werewolf tropes, and I remember

475
00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:06.480
Stephen Kosenuski coming up and saying, Hey, I'd like to

476
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.920
have you a part of this. I want to wear

477
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.000
with a story that's not a werewolf story. And I

478
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:18.480
was like, oh, well, what if it's a reverse werewolf?

479
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:22.119
And like my mind just went from there, you know,

480
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.640
because as soon as I had that thought, I had

481
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.440
a picture in my head of the ending that is

482
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.319
the actual ending of the book. And so I just

483
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:32.599
took that picture in my head and just worked it backwards.

484
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:36.240
And so pretty much all of my everything I've ever written,

485
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:40.039
I've always written the ending first, Like the ending's always

486
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:41.720
popped into my head first, and then I have to

487
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:46.240
I don't write very linearly, so it might be, oh,

488
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.920
a scene here, and then a scene in the very beginning,

489
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.279
like usually the first chapter is the last thing I write.

490
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.160
Interesting John Irving, I don't know if you're aware of him.

491
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:58.480
He writes backwards, he writes with the ending first. I

492
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:01.720
think he says that he writes, it's the very last

493
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:04.880
sentence first, and then he kind of works backwards that way.

494
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.759
And it's interesting that you do similar because I've always

495
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.480
you write the characters, and this is how a villain

496
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:16.200
is made? Are great? How do you when I find

497
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.319
I started at the beginning and I work my way

498
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:20.599
until the end, and that's how I learn who the

499
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.400
characters are. How do you write realistic characters when you're

500
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:25.200
starting at the end.

501
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:29.960
I think because the end is the point of where

502
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:34.559
I want those characters to be. That helps me to

503
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.599
get into the mindset of what got them to that

504
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:41.440
situation in the first place. Okay, And so like for

505
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:44.279
B for example, with how the book ends with her,

506
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.960
it's just what what are the chain of events that

507
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:54.680
got her from point A to point Z? And so

508
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.119
so I'll lay out those ideas of this happens, and

509
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:01.240
then this happens, and this happens we go sideways here

510
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:04.599
and then as I start to see the events that

511
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.039
kind of unfold, and again, it sometimes doesn't happen that

512
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:12.000
in a straight line. It's like I'll get a random

513
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.599
thought here about this happening, and then here and here,

514
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:17.160
and then I have to go and line them up.

515
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:22.160
But as as I start seeing what situations evolve for

516
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.759
that character, I'm like, oh, I start to see sparks

517
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.079
of their personality come through, or who they are, what

518
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.519
are their goals? And so I'll start doing a deeper

519
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.759
dive into that to be like, Okay, now who is

520
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.359
this person and start to flesh them out a little

521
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:38.759
bit more.

522
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.720
That's awesome. Maybe I'll try that sometime. I don't know.

523
00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:47.440
Usually my stories ideas come with like the what if,

524
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:49.680
and like, you know, what if this and this were

525
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:52.759
happening and then and that, for some reason, is always

526
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:55.519
at the beginning. You know, It's it's kind of frustrating.

527
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.920
I don't always know the end. But before we continue,

528
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.759
can you tell us what this is? How a villain

529
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.119
is made is about?

530
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:09.039
I like to say that this is Maya. Eliza Doolittle

531
00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:15.440
from Pigmillion meets Dexter in the Old West. So, so

532
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.960
it follows the story of a character named Beatrix Beaumont

533
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:27.240
as she is kind of escaping a rough family dynamic

534
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:31.920
with her father after her mother passed away, and so

535
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:38.160
she's escaping out west. She takes as much money as

536
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:43.480
she can from him and flees and then has to

537
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:45.759
when money runs out, she has to figure out how

538
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:48.440
to continue her trip because she knows if she stops,

539
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:53.680
she'll get caught and taken back home. Yeah, and this

540
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:59.960
is set in the lates eighteen hundreds, so dealing with

541
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.759
trains and that, so you know, no digital era or stuff,

542
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.039
no cell phones, no ubers and things in that nature.

543
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:11.720
So yes, it's set in the late eighteen hundreds, and

544
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:16.000
she's escaping out west. Situations happened where she comes stranded

545
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:17.839
and she has to figure out how to fend for

546
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.799
herself in those moments. And I'm doing my best to

547
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:24.920
not give away the plot, but she ends up finding

548
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:27.799
employment that doesn't quite go as planned.

549
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:31.400
Yeah. Oh, this is going to be tricky to talk

550
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.920
about because I don't want to give it. I went

551
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.559
in blind and it was a wild ride. Because of that,

552
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.359
I had no idea where it was going. And I

553
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:42.920
think that's the best way, honestly to enter some books,

554
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.880
and this is one of them. I wanted to mention

555
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:49.200
that I loved this book. The writing style was like

556
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.039
butter melting into my brain and I absolutely loved it.

557
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.880
Were you cognizant of developing your voice over the years

558
00:32:58.079 --> 00:32:59.880
or did it just develop naturally?

559
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.599
A right? I think it. I feel like my voice

560
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:11.440
has always been my voice, but I was very restrained

561
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.319
on letting it free. Like I feel like this book

562
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:20.160
is me being me finally, like I was always told.

563
00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.559
I had someone tell me on one of the first

564
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:28.119
short stories that I had published, your voice is too snooty.

565
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:31.640
It's too literary, it's too high brow. You're writing genre

566
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.200
a tone of down, which is an absolute bullshit. Respond like,

567
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.680
come on, what is literary like versus genre? I mean, like,

568
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:40.880
fuck off?

569
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:46.599
Have they read Stephen Graham Jones or seriously?

570
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:48.960
And That's what I love seeing, is like people are

571
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.240
just like letting their voices shine. And I feel like

572
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:54.759
though that hampered me a bit, and I can see

573
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.559
like in my last novel or my first novel and

574
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:03.920
in my short story collection, I can see me letting

575
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.119
go a little bit more each time, with more recent

576
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.760
short stories before this is how a Villain Is Made

577
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.559
came out, you know, just letting myself loose a little

578
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.679
bit more and a little bit more, and then this book,

579
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:19.840
I'm like, I just need to like just be me.

580
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:21.719
I just need to be me in this book and

581
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:25.159
just let it let my voice be what it is.

582
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:30.440
Yeah, I really enjoyed it for that, but I also

583
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:33.880
really like the characters. It's also interesting that it's a

584
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:38.840
historical horror, as we mentioned, takes place late night eighteen hundreds.

585
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:42.519
Was there an inspiration at all behind writing in this

586
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:46.639
sentence or sorry setting, It's.

587
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:51.920
I just I love the I love Westerns, Like I'm

588
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.199
not a die hard western, but if one's on television,

589
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.280
Like if an old John Wayne movie just happens to

590
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.519
be on television, I'll just stop and watch it. Like

591
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.199
I just love the gritty I feel I love not

592
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:09.119
being restrained by technology because I feel like I feel like,

593
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:13.960
in having to write in current day, someone always has

594
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:16.440
a cell phone on them, someone always can call for help,

595
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:18.360
and then you have to put them in a situation

596
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:23.000
where there's no service, and it's just like I feel

597
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.800
like it's getting harder and harder to strand people to

598
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:26.760
not call for help.

599
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:27.559
And so.

600
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.639
I am progressing my way. I feel like I'm writing

601
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:38.519
a lot of historical storyes lately, Like the next book

602
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:42.199
I'm working on set in nineteen fourteen, So I feel

603
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:45.840
like I'm making my way through time to come up

604
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:50.199
to the present. But it's just I'm having fun not

605
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:55.199
being in a digital era and writing. And it's just

606
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:59.239
I don't know. Whenever I thought of this ending to

607
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:03.719
this story, I just I had pictured B in my head,

608
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:07.559
and she never was a current time. You know, she

609
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.760
was never in the current time frame. She was always

610
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:12.800
in the late eighteen hundred. She was always out in

611
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:17.280
Colorado standing on a prairie, you know, walking away from

612
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:20.639
a burning house, like she was always doing this. She

613
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:26.400
was always like she was just always she just was

614
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:27.360
never a current time.

615
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:34.480
Yeah. I found uh the characters to be interesting, as

616
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:38.039
I keep talking about. But that's one reason why I

617
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:41.360
read books. I love reading about people or characters. I

618
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:46.400
think that's how we sort of see ourselves, right. I

619
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:51.199
found bay sorry B to be really uh an interesting.

620
00:36:51.320 --> 00:37:00.800
She her journey is a dark one, and I I

621
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.159
couldn't help but get angry at how people were treating her,

622
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.800
especially the men. Now, I kind of wanted to talk

623
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:10.159
about this, but I don't know how to approach it.

624
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:16.360
But this is like a good example of female rage,

625
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:19.039
and could you talk about that a little?

626
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:26.639
Yeah, And I just want people to feel unsettled reading

627
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:30.320
this book, like with every page turn, because I mean,

628
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:32.760
I don't know if all women feel this. I feel

629
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.239
like a lot of women do. I certainly feel this.

630
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:40.320
Like I am always unsettled. I'm always looking over my shoulder.

631
00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:46.159
I was just walking down the street in a city

632
00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:48.039
the other day that I've never been to in my

633
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:53.320
entire life, and there was someone walking behind me and

634
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:55.480
then all of a sudden, like their footsteps got faster

635
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.719
and quicker, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, are

636
00:37:57.719 --> 00:37:59.159
they gonna come up behind me and grab me or

637
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:03.400
something like that. And it's just always that unsettled feeling

638
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:08.880
of something's going to happen to you. I mean, I'm

639
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:11.320
probably a very paranoid person to begin with, but it's

640
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:16.719
just I wanted readers to kind of get into the

641
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.920
minds of women and be like, we always have this

642
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.199
heightened level of security about ourselves, you know, walking through

643
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.960
a parking lot, going into a building, We're always looking around,

644
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:28.840
We're always looking at the exit, We're always looking to

645
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.599
see who's sitting next to us, just to make sure

646
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:36.079
we're safe. And that's kind of the situation that like

647
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:39.400
I put b in, is where she's always having to

648
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.480
question her safety because that's as a woman I'm doing

649
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:45.199
every second I stepped with outside the door.

650
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:48.440
Yeah, I don't I think you have to be paranoid

651
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:53.159
as a woman, especially in a city at night, even

652
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:57.880
in the daytime. I've seen I've seen things, and I've

653
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:00.519
experienced things myself. I used to have long hair, and

654
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:02.320
I used to have kind of shapely body. If you

655
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:04.599
saw me from behind, you might have thought I was

656
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:08.800
a woman, and so I often got I there's times

657
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:11.800
when I got cat called and then I turn around they're.

658
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:19.039
Like, but you know what that feels like. Yeah, it's terrible.

659
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:19.760
It's horrible.

660
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.079
It's like, I'm not inviting you to do that. Why

661
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:22.679
are you doing that?

662
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:27.000
Yeah, I actually have an experience of being stalked at

663
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:30.400
night by a person who delivered papers. I debated with

664
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:33.000
myself telling the story, but I think it's it's kind

665
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:37.960
of relevant. I was like eighteen, and I was I

666
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:39.960
had a girlfriend and she lived just a couple of

667
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.440
streets over from where I do. It's about fifteen minute walk,

668
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:46.639
and we'd watch movies until like one or two in

669
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:50.000
the morning during the summer months, right, and then i'd

670
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:52.360
walk home. So I'm walking home at like one o'clock

671
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.639
in the morning, and that's when this guy would be

672
00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:56.920
delivering papers. And like I said, I had hair that

673
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.559
went all the way down halfway through my like halfway

674
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:03.760
down my ba and he drove a van and it

675
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.280
was a very loud van, and it was scary because

676
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:10.840
he started following me, and so I went I would

677
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.199
take alternat roots to try to get home without him, right,

678
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:16.599
But it eventually came to the point where I'd call

679
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.440
the cops. And this is another point where I know

680
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:22.679
what it's like. Maybe I'm not saying I do know

681
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.320
what it's like, but I've experienced it. When talking to

682
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:29.880
the cops, they questioned me whether I was what I

683
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.599
was experiencing was real or not.

684
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:32.559
Yep.

685
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:38.119
And so they talked to the guy and they said,

686
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:41.280
the cop told me, well, whatever, you experienced it. Basically

687
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:43.360
they didn't believe me, but they said they talked to

688
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.039
him anyway, and they said he wouldn't bother me anymore.

689
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:48.760
So that night, after I talked to the cops, I

690
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.440
even had my stepdad come out, and he saw the

691
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:53.480
guy waiting for me to leave the house. He was

692
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.199
parked down the road and watched him as he delivered

693
00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:59.639
the paper in one of those newspaper stands, right, So

694
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.719
he was watching him wait for me to come out

695
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:05.400
of the house. And that's when we phoned the cops.

696
00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:05.639
Right.

697
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:10.440
Anyways, the night that night, after they talked to him,

698
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.159
he took his boldest move and as I was walking

699
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.480
down the street, he took his van and he like

700
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:23.000
jumped the curb and drove over the grass and yelled

701
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:26.000
something out at me, and then he drove off. I

702
00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:29.119
couldn't hear what he said, but it was like angry, right,

703
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.519
and then that was it. I never saw him again.

704
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:35.119
But that's horrific.

705
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:37.840
It was such a weird and ever since then, I'm

706
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.760
I'm like, I understand, you know, at least to would

707
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:44.280
degree what it's like. Because after that, I was like,

708
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:46.400
I'm glad I wasn't born a woman, because if I

709
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.519
was a woman, I'd have to experience this all the

710
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:49.199
fucking time.

711
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:54.400
And it's it's the lack of belief by authorities that

712
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.360
you're reaching out to for help. It's just like, why

713
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:02.400
why do I have to keep proving myself like this

714
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:06.159
is happening to me. Here's the receipts. What more do

715
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:06.719
you want?

716
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.360
Yeah? I even had a witness, my stepdad.

717
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.119
Yeah.

718
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:12.760
Well, but when he was talking to me, he was like,

719
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:15.639
are you sure that that's what he was doing because

720
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:17.559
we talked. We talked to him and he said he

721
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:21.679
wasn't doing that, And it's like, so it's his word

722
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:25.079
against mine? Is it because I'm eighteen or you know what?

723
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:28.000
What's going on here? I have my stepdad he saw

724
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:31.119
it happen, so yep, And.

725
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:32.400
That is why I wrote that book.

726
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.119
I heard you talk about it. It made me think

727
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.039
of that. I haven't really thought of that story in years.

728
00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:43.800
And then I heard you talking on a podcast about

729
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.280
the book and how you mentioned something similar that you know,

730
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.679
going outside, you don't know what you're going to deal with,

731
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:52.760
And suddenly I thought of that story, and I was like,

732
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:54.880
you know, maybe I shouldn't talk about it because I

733
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.480
am a man and I don't know what it's like

734
00:42:57.519 --> 00:42:59.920
to be a woman, but I have experienced. Maybe it's

735
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:02.559
a little bit of what goes on on a day

736
00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:06.920
to day routine, and I I wouldn't be able to

737
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:08.760
do it. I would be angry all the time.

738
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:12.719
M hmm. Yeah, it's it's infuriating. And then you know,

739
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:16.119
like in your situation, you're gasolet into thinking, no, that

740
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:18.719
didn't happen. No, you're making that up. No, it's all

741
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:21.840
on your head. And so you you kind of start

742
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:26.679
to isolate yourself, and you know, you become a hermit.

743
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.400
Well I'm kind of a hermit anyway. But and I

744
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:36.719
no longer look like a woman from behind. So as

745
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:39.760
you age, you gain weight and stuff. You know, I

746
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:47.119
no longer obviously. But I wanted to talk about Jonathan.

747
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:50.519
Jonathan is an interesting character. So you want to talk

748
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:53.039
about gaslighting, this guy is like the master of it.

749
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:56.400
And he's also he's not a very nice guy at all.

750
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:02.519
Yeah. It has a lot of experience with narcissists.

751
00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:06.039
So yeah, he was like, yeah, he was definitely that.

752
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:10.960
And the interesting thing about narcissists is how they're never wrong.

753
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:12.199
Mm hmm.

754
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.679
And I think Jonathan, I keep going to say Jonathan,

755
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:18.199
but if he was here, he would he would it

756
00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:22.400
would be ja Jaen there's no h in there, there's

757
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:26.119
no yeah.

758
00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:29.039
And actually he doesn't even pronounce it correctly. But that's

759
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.079
a story for another day.

760
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:33.519
Well, that that goes into they can never be wrong, right,

761
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.079
even if they do something wrong, even if they break

762
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:39.039
their own rule. It's like, well, I don't care you

763
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:41.039
don't do it, I can right, You know that kind

764
00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:47.000
of thing is Jonathan is he uh? Is he? Uh?

765
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:51.280
Like now like a collection of people you've known or

766
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.519
is it based on just one person? You don't have

767
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:55.280
to answer either.

768
00:44:57.239 --> 00:45:01.800
I'm gonna keep my mouth shut on that one. But but

769
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:03.639
with him, like the big thing that I wanted to show,

770
00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:07.599
like because I'm very much into analyzing nature versus nurture,

771
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:15.159
and you know, narcissism, and I've unfortunately been the brunt

772
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:23.920
of narcissism. One hand, it's absolutely horrific, it's maddening, it's abusive,

773
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:28.440
you know. But on the other hand, it's like, how

774
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:31.079
it's fascinating because I'm like, how can you be that delusional?

775
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:37.360
And so I think when I experience certain situations, I

776
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.920
try to take a step back and I'm like, why

777
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:44.639
are you the way you are? And and look at

778
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:48.320
how such and such person is brought up? What what

779
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:52.440
have they experienced? You know, are villains born or are

780
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.440
they made? You know, are they actually a villain? Because

781
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:57.800
you know, a villain is only a villain in the

782
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:01.119
mind of a hero, and every villain is a hero

783
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:03.960
in their own mind. So it's just like, those were

784
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.960
a lot of things that were going through my mind

785
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.679
as I was writing his character, because I'm like, is

786
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:16.480
he really a bad guy? Yeah? Yes, but is he

787
00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:22.320
looking at what he went through, looking at the nurture

788
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:27.519
or lack thereof, and how he was brought up? Did

789
00:46:27.559 --> 00:46:33.000
that shape him? Because there and this this person, their

790
00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:35.280
name just went right out of my mind. But he

791
00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:37.920
did a study of looking at brain scans of serial

792
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.400
killers and noticing like brain texture or brain waves between

793
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:53.480
you know, serial killers and you know, you're you're I

794
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:58.719
guess what would they be? Sociopaths, psychopaths, sociopaths I always

795
00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:04.559
get those mixed up, but people who are suffering through

796
00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:08.920
that versus people who aren't. And then looking at the

797
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:12.679
nature versus nurture aspect. And so this person who ran

798
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:17.519
this study looked at his own his own brain and said,

799
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:21.320
oh my gosh, based off the data, I should be

800
00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:25.800
a sociopath or a psychopath. And he's like, but because

801
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:28.960
of the way I was brought up, I was able

802
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.360
to put in gates keeping me from going to that line.

803
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.599
He's like, I'm a borderline narcissist, and I could admit that.

804
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:40.960
He's like, but I know right from wrong. Yeah, And

805
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:42.840
I know that because of how I was raised.

806
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.800
That's interesting because I've always had that thought. I don't

807
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:49.920
know where it came. I'm pretty sure it probably came

808
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:54.119
from somewhere else, somebody asking it. But the idea of

809
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:56.960
murdering somebody else, it's either in you to do it

810
00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.119
or it's not. And it has to be kind of

811
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.280
triggered if it is in you. Because there's there's plenty

812
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:06.559
of people who could maybe have killed and we're stepping

813
00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:09.159
away from the book here a bit, but uh, there's

814
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:12.480
people who could have killed in order to defend themselves

815
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.039
or whatever, but they couldn't bring themselves to do it.

816
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:18.360
But then there's other people it's like, come on, bring it,

817
00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:20.000
you know, like I'm ready.

818
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:27.159
Yeah. I think. I think. I think when it comes

819
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:32.880
down to that, it's a biological mix with a social nature.

820
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:38.280
Like I think there's people who are probably biologically predisposed

821
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:40.719
to be that, but based on how they're raised or

822
00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:44.320
based on what social situations are, it determines whether they

823
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:48.440
are or not going to have that kind of future. Yeah,

824
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:51.719
so it's that's that's really fascinating. Yeah, and I wish

825
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:55.159
I wasn't so travel lagged right now because my brain

826
00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:57.360
is not functioning at one hundred percent, so I could

827
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:01.360
remember the name of that that doctor who was doing

828
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:03.559
that study, because it's absolutely fascinating.

829
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:06.320
Well, you don't have to worry because my brain is

830
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.159
probably functioning at about forty percent. There's plenty.

831
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:12.519
Okay, great, so we're going to have a good dock.

832
00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:15.800
Every time I try to say something intelligent, I can't

833
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:19.079
remember the words, so around it.

834
00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:22.519
Yeah, I'm feeling right now because I'm running on like

835
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:26.320
two hours of sleep after a twenty hour flight, So I.

836
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:30.119
Don't know how you do that. Oh man, that's awful.

837
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:35.840
I'm sorry. We could have we could have talked at another.

838
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.119
No, it's it's all good because I was really excited

839
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:39.360
to talk to you when you messaged me.

840
00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:44.760
Okay, I don't want to spoil too much about the story,

841
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.000
but there's there's a couple of things I wanted to

842
00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:51.719
dig into just a little bit. I hope we can

843
00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:56.960
discuss it without without spoiling it. The first thing is

844
00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:01.039
there's a lot of examinations of dead and not top

845
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:04.079
season whatnot that that happened in this book. I want

846
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:07.320
to know what was the research for this, Like, and

847
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:10.119
I'm wondering if your Google is now being tracked by

848
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:10.760
the FBI.

849
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:16.159
Yes, one hundred percent, it's being tracked. But like I

850
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:21.199
used to be an EMT and even before that, like

851
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.320
all throughout high school and college, like my my dream

852
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:28.199
goal was be a marine biologist. That you know, never

853
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:34.480
happened due to certain circumstances in life. But I've always

854
00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:41.000
studied anatomy human, different kind of animal anatomy, So like

855
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.719
a lot of it I just knew, and then I'd

856
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:45.880
fact check myself because I want to make sure I'm right.

857
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.239
Like that's the big thing with this book. You know,

858
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:53.199
from a his the historical standpoint and the anatomical standpoint,

859
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:58.000
like it it should be all right because I did

860
00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:01.920
extensive research on everything and anything that I knew offhand,

861
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:05.199
Like I fact checked myself to make sure, yeah, you

862
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:07.840
are sounding right. That is the sound of how sounds

863
00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:11.239
like whenever it's snapping. Because I've done chess compressions, I

864
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.760
know what that feels like and sounds like. So I'm

865
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.519
I'm feeling like having cut open sternum is gonna, you know,

866
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:20.679
sound like this, and wrote it and then I went

867
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:28.840
and listened to some medical autopsies, which is probably being tracked,

868
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.400
but I would. I've watched a lot of autopsy videos

869
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:34.199
for this, and I'm like, that's what I thought.

870
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:39.400
I didn't know those are these like on medical university.

871
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:43.199
Yes I paid I paid for some videos. Okay because

872
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:46.159
it sounds really dirty, but yes, I paid for some videos,

873
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:46.920
paid for it.

874
00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:52.480
I can't imagine like looking it up on YouTube. I've

875
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:54.719
never I might try it tonight just to see if

876
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.320
there is anything, but I'm not too sure if I

877
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.599
want to actually, but you know, that's a.

878
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:03.559
Pretty there's some there's some rogue things you can find

879
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:07.199
out there. Yeah, but my problem is sometimes there are

880
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.000
a couple of things that I'd found. I look at

881
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:11.039
it and I'm like, I'm not sure if this is

882
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:11.760
AI or not.

883
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.159
Oh yeah, AI is ruining everything, isn't it?

884
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:16.199
It is? It is.

885
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:19.679
I can't even tell what's real anymore. Like you come

886
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:22.159
across these memes. There's some of them I fell for.

887
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:23.920
I'm like, oh, that's so funny, and I share it

888
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.440
with my friends and then afterwards I noticed it's AI

889
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:28.119
and I'm like, I look like.

890
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.639
You know. And then I sit there and I'm like,

891
00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:36.159
I'm like, you know, as a creator, what's this going

892
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.639
to do to us in the next five to ten years? Yeah, like,

893
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:42.360
oh god, that's not a topic I'm ready to talk about.

894
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:46.320
To give you hope, I say, just keep doing what

895
00:52:46.360 --> 00:52:49.000
you're doing. I think I think it will be fairly Okay.

896
00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:53.599
It's going to change things, but I don't think it's

897
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.880
going to wipe writers out human writers.

898
00:52:55.960 --> 00:52:58.840
Yeah at all. Now we like to create too much.

899
00:52:58.880 --> 00:52:59.920
I don't see all I can.

900
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:03.639
I mean, oh, yeah, there'll be more of a market

901
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:08.440
or whatever, but a bigger market. But yeah, at least

902
00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:10.679
we're not in the movie business because that can be

903
00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:12.239
totally fabricated.

904
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.559
That's yeah. Especially what did you see that new actress?

905
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:17.960
I forget what her name is. I'm like, are you

906
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:18.599
kidding me?

907
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.000
It's terrible? Why yeah?

908
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.320
Why?

909
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:24.079
Oh?

910
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.920
And now we're making the bots mad because we're talking

911
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:31.719
poorly about them. So say thank you. Chat ept you're

912
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:34.440
the best, you know, don't come and annihilate us when

913
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:36.320
the robots take over the world. We love you.

914
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:39.039
Oh, I'm always nice to my cell phone. When I'm

915
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:41.519
talking to Siri, I'm polite and I say please and

916
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:43.199
thank you just in.

917
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:47.079
Case, oh I should. I don't really use any of

918
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:49.000
that I have. I finally broke down and bought an

919
00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:53.719
Alexa six months ago. I never really use except to

920
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:57.400
play music. And then I'm like, no, this is I

921
00:53:57.440 --> 00:53:59.360
am not an tech person.

922
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:05.480
Yeah, okay, So the next question here could go into

923
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:09.559
a spoiler territory, so I will cut it out if

924
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.800
if it is, or you can say, let's let's talk

925
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.119
about something else. But there comes a point where we

926
00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:19.679
don't have to go into the specifics here. But h

927
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:25.079
B makes a decision. She makes a pretty big decision

928
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:31.400
right around the middle mark. And I think if anyone

929
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.480
else handled it, I wouldn't have believed it. But the

930
00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:36.599
way you wrote it, I don't know if you're if

931
00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:38.920
you know the part I'm talking about, I don't want

932
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:41.960
to say, oh, I know, And I was just like,

933
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.920
you know, I can totally believe because what's she gonna do?

934
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:48.480
What is she going to do? She can't do anything,

935
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:52.880
so she makes this choice and it was absolutely believable

936
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:56.360
when you were writing that scene. Did it surprise you

937
00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:58.880
as much as it surprised because I was. I was like,

938
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:01.880
oh my god, she could have done something, but she

939
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:05.440
didn't and she made this choice. Did it surprise you?

940
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:15.840
It's it's it didn't. It didn't because it's she's a

941
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.840
risk taker, but she's not so much of a risk

942
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:25.079
taker as to deal with the unknown to that extent

943
00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:29.480
where it's like she hit this point. I'm trying to

944
00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:31.480
think of, like how to talk about this about spoiling

945
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:34.119
it because I I that's a fan, Like I love

946
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:39.639
this question so much. But she was given two impossible

947
00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:43.199
decisions and neither decision was going to be a right

948
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:47.920
decision because what she envisioned happening to her with the

949
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:51.880
choice she didn't make, would have happened. Yeah, you know,

950
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:56.320
it's I did a lot of research into like, Okay,

951
00:55:56.400 --> 00:56:00.320
if this happens to a woman in this situation, and

952
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:06.880
you know, how would they survive and it would have happened,

953
00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:09.400
So one way or the other was going to happen.

954
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:14.119
And she's just like, you know, sometimes it's the devil

955
00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:16.840
you know that's better than the devil you don't know? Yeah,

956
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:18.199
kind of what it boiled down to.

957
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:22.920
I think she's very good at rationalizing, and I think

958
00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:26.599
that like she knew what the what the stakes were.

959
00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:31.360
In that moment, and she was kind of like, because

960
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:36.400
there's been times that it's just like, this is the

961
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:38.519
lot that I've been dealt, and no matter how hard

962
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:41.760
I try and fight to get away from it, I'm

963
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:44.159
just going to keep getting sucked back in. So is

964
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.599
it that I go back in and control it on

965
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:51.280
my terms? Even though and I like to think that's

966
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:53.280
what was going on in the back of her mind

967
00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:58.440
when she made the decision, because it's like, again, is

968
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.519
it better to deal with the devil you know than

969
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:04.119
the double you don't know? And so, you know, I

970
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.559
tried to sit there and be like, Okay, if someone's

971
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.719
reading this, will they see this as a believable decision.

972
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:12.840
And that's why, like I tried to have a rationalize

973
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.599
it out, because I didn't want people to be like, oh,

974
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:22.960
that's a cop out, you know, that's you know.

975
00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:25.880
She comes up with are very realistic what she going

976
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:26.239
to do?

977
00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:30.199
Yeah, And in all of our lives, we are at

978
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:33.960
some point whether we faced that point or not. We

979
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:36.519
are going to be faced with two impossible decisions that

980
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:39.320
we have to make, and I hope that everyone sits

981
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:43.119
and rationalizes each one to determine which is the lesser

982
00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:47.280
of the two evils to take. I've unfortunately been there

983
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:49.320
where it's like you just have to sit there and

984
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:52.599
you're like, there is I'm not coming out of this well,

985
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:57.400
so which is going to be the least hurtful? And

986
00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:00.320
so that's kind of like the position that I put

987
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:00.559
her in.

988
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:06.679
Unfortunately, I found that scene fascinating because you also alter

989
00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:11.679
expectations of the reader, I think, and it worked brilliantly.

990
00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:14.679
It maybe it shouldn't have worked, but it did, And

991
00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:16.239
kudos to you for that.

992
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:20.599
Oh, thank you, thank you. I appreciate that it was.

993
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:23.000
It was a hard scene. There were there were some

994
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.159
scenes where it's like I had to put the book

995
00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:27.639
away for a couple of days before coming back to

996
00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:31.280
it because it this this this book went through many

997
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:34.119
many iterations, and I know a lot of people come

998
00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:36.679
back and say, oh, this book should have been longer,

999
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:40.760
but it's like, no, it's perfect. It couldn't be longer.

1000
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:44.119
It's too it's it's too much emotionally.

1001
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:50.079
Honestly, I could see this adapted into like a movie,

1002
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:55.079
like a sort of like an art house type movie.

1003
00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:59.280
I think, because it's the time period and it's very dark,

1004
00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:04.599
it goes into very dark places. Yeah, and I would

1005
00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:07.039
love to see this as a movie. I don't. I

1006
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:09.440
say that a lot, but not maybe not often. I

1007
00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:11.880
don't know. I don't know where I was going with that,

1008
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:17.599
but I love this story as like an independent film

1009
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:21.440
done like the way it was in my head, you

1010
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:25.199
know what I mean. I think it would be brilliant, brilliant.

1011
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:29.639
I would love it shot with that gritty cinematography of

1012
00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:31.239
like an old John Wayne movie.

1013
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:38.480
Yeah. Yeah, so uncomfortably dark. Put this book out. What

1014
00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:41.159
was it like working with I just spoke with Candace

1015
00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:46.639
Nola yesterday, and so what was it like working with her?

1016
00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:51.000
Candace is a queen Like I absolutely adore Candace. She's

1017
00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:54.519
one of those publishers who was just all about her authors.

1018
00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:58.920
She tries to do everything she can to make us

1019
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:03.199
happy and sadd like. She really goes her and Christina

1020
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:06.119
and the rest of Candace's team, like I know, her

1021
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:10.280
children help her out and things like that. They are

1022
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:14.039
like just die hard all about the authors, and it's

1023
01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:18.440
just it's fantastic. Like I, she's so supportive, so kind.

1024
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:22.159
I can't say enough good things about Candace and Nola.

1025
01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:24.639
She's just a wonderful, wonderful human being.

1026
01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:27.719
She was great to talk to. And I might be

1027
01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:29.480
hiring her editing service.

1028
01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:31.840
Oh she's good. She's good.

1029
01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:37.119
So do you think do you think B will return

1030
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:39.760
in future stories at all?

1031
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:45.199
I don't know, because yeah, I'm not sure. Now there

1032
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:50.679
is a tie in with Lily and Will in my

1033
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:54.639
short story collection, So Lily and will make an appearance

1034
01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:59.199
in a short story that ties in the whole cosmic

1035
01:00:59.239 --> 01:00:59.920
horror element.

1036
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:01.079
That's oh nice.

1037
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:04.880
Yeah, that doesn't really show up in this book, because

1038
01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:08.559
you know, this book is very much a one setting

1039
01:01:08.639 --> 01:01:12.519
kind of book. But there is a whole other cosmic

1040
01:01:12.519 --> 01:01:17.800
corr element with this town that may appear. I think

1041
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:21.599
B has wrote off into the Sunset, but I don't

1042
01:01:21.639 --> 01:01:25.280
know for sure. She might make an appearance there. There

1043
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:29.719
will definitely be references to her. I've already there's references

1044
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:33.800
to her my new novel, but I don't know if

1045
01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.320
she will make an appearance. So we will see TBD.

1046
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:40.199
The only reason why I ask is because she's she's

1047
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:43.679
different now, after everything she went through. What's it going

1048
01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:45.920
to be like for her five years down the road,

1049
01:01:46.199 --> 01:01:47.239
what's she going to be doing?

1050
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:53.400
Well? If this was like twenty twenty five, she would

1051
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:57.360
be a girl boss. Yeah, hands down girl boss.

1052
01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:01.440
Well she technically is. And she handled herself well at

1053
01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:03.039
the end. Yeah.

1054
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.719
Yeah, when she finally found herself, she was like, all right,

1055
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:13.119
I'm doing these games, no more calling. Yeah, let's just

1056
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:17.000
say be as fine. She made it to where she

1057
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:19.239
wants to be and figured out how to handle herself

1058
01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:19.800
very well.

1059
01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:23.199
Awesome. I love it. I love it so much. I

1060
01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:26.199
love this book, and uh, I can't wait to read

1061
01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:31.039
more from you, because, like I said, man, everything was

1062
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:33.360
just so great. The whole experience of reading this book

1063
01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:35.199
was just fantastic for me.

1064
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:37.559
And I'm so glad you enjoyed it.

1065
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:40.599
And it's probably going to be up there in the

1066
01:02:40.599 --> 01:02:42.760
top ten. I say that a lot, but I've only

1067
01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:46.440
said I've said it less than ten times. So I

1068
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:49.000
think your book is going to be there for sure.

1069
01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:52.920
There's no way it can it can't be. So I

1070
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:54.840
want to thank you so much for coming on and

1071
01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:59.519
talking with me. But before we go, what can listeners

1072
01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:01.679
look for or two and you you've kind of brushed

1073
01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:04.760
upon it. But what's coming out that you can talk about.

1074
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:09.480
I have a lot of work in the pipelines, so

1075
01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:14.280
next book. Not to give a lot of details away,

1076
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:18.840
but we were writing a novel with dinosaurs. Finally, I'm

1077
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:23.559
so excited. And then I have another novel with beasts,

1078
01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:29.400
so I'm like revisiting my uh scientific roots in those two.

1079
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:33.079
And then I have a bunch of short stories that

1080
01:03:33.159 --> 01:03:37.800
I'll be working on. There is an Exquisite Corpse anthology

1081
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.679
that I believe is gonna be coming out next year.

1082
01:03:39.719 --> 01:03:42.079
There's gonna be a kickstarter coming out soon on that

1083
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:46.800
where I will have a chapter in that. Exquisite Corpse

1084
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:49.480
is one story by thirteen authors, so we all have

1085
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:53.559
to write our own chapter. So there's that, and then

1086
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:55.960
there's a few other things that I have coming out

1087
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.199
hopefully next year, but I can't announce them yet, so

1088
01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:00.559
we'll keep those under rep for now.

1089
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:04.800
Awesome, So you're you're You're invited to come back anytime

1090
01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:05.159
you want.

1091
01:04:06.199 --> 01:04:08.159
Oh, I love that. This is a fun chat.

1092
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:11.320
Yeah, I'll email you or you can email me and

1093
01:04:11.639 --> 01:04:12.599
we'll set it up.

1094
01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:17.000
Absolutely. That sounds great. We could talk more about existential

1095
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:22.039
dread and you know, the deepest darkest points in space.

1096
01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:26.679
Absolutely, I love that this year has been really wild

1097
01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:29.480
for that on this podcast. This is the first person.

1098
01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:32.800
You're the fourth person I've discussed this type of stuff with,

1099
01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:35.280
and I could talk. I could make a podcast on

1100
01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:37.679
it alone. I'm not gonna I'm not going to go

1101
01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:41.119
there because that that I have too many things going on.

1102
01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:45.800
But that just me maybe you should do an episode

1103
01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:47.559
or you know, an episode of this where you bring

1104
01:04:47.599 --> 01:04:49.119
like a couple of us on and we just all

1105
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.760
like sit down, have a drink or two and just

1106
01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:52.840
talk about space.

1107
01:04:53.800 --> 01:04:56.079
Love that we need to do that. Maybe I'll set

1108
01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:56.400
that up.

1109
01:04:56.440 --> 01:05:00.480
That would be fun. That would be fun, And I'll

1110
01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:02.440
make sure I'm not traveling ahead of time so my

1111
01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:03.960
brain's a little more functional.

1112
01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:08.079
Maybe in the new year, so at some point that

1113
01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:10.519
would be fun. All Right, Well, thank you so much.

1114
01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:12.480
I can't wait to talk to you and thank you.

1115
01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:16.679
Yeah, I have a great night. Thank you, and I

1116
01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:18.079
hope you get a good sleep tonight.

1117
01:05:18.920 --> 01:05:19.079
Hi.

1118
01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:20.239
I hope so too.

1119
01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:59.719
Lit lift lift lift.

1120
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:48.960
Lift costly cost lest who live legal