Oct. 27, 2025

065 - Robbie Dorman Pt. 2: His Cursed Book and Religious Horror

065 - Robbie Dorman Pt. 2: His Cursed Book and Religious Horror
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Robbie Dorman has had a rough go of it lately. In this discussion, we cover his frustrations with the publishing industry, self-doubt, ambition, his book that literally became cursed, and his latest novel, Words of Christ in Red. 

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WEBVTT

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Welcome to weird Reads. I got a new tagline here.

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I'm going to try it out your book club from

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the Twilight Zone.

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I don't know if.

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That's going to stick or not, but we'll see. I

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am your host, Jason White, and on this episode, I

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welcome back the author Robbie Dorman. But before we start,

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I do want to thank a couple of new Patreon members.

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There's three new paid members and there's a couple of

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free members. I want to thank everyone for joining. Now,

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one of them doesn't want to be named, so I'm

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totally fine with that, but I want to thank them anyway.

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Thank you so much for joining. And the other two

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are Samantha and Crystal. Thank you so much for joining.

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Everything helps, It helps pay the bills. Podcasting bills can

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get a little a little ridiculous sometimes, so Robbie Dorman.

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Robbie Dorman was on the show before, but this was

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a couple of years ago. I wasn't uploading to the

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podcast at the same at that time. So just so

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you know, Robbie, this will be both available as a

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video on YouTube and a podcast episode. Robbie Dorman is

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the writer of a lot of great novels, including Conquest

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Horror on Halloween, this book is Cursed's turned out to

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be true, and most recently words of Christen read, welcome

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back to the show, Robbie.

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How have you been busy? But thank you for having

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me back. The video I your video of me talking

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about me at some point is one of the first

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things that pops up when you gogle my name.

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So I'm yeah, I made a video why you should

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read Robbie Dorman. Yeah, And I did that because I

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absolutely love your work, and like nobody on BookTube is

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talking about Robbie Dorman, but they need to.

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I appreciate that.

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And also I just want to let you know because

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I had I was talking to you before we hit

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record that I'm having issues with guests, technical issues, and

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somebody had to cancel because of these technical issues. So

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in that place I reposted, I uploaded our first interview

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together as like a special, and I put that video

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as audio form too into that. So that releases tomorrow.

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It'll be part one, Robbie Dorman Part one, and it'll

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have those two videos why you should read Robbie Doorman

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and and our interview or our discussion together, and then

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the exactly one week later it will be.

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This episode Okay, awesome, But I mean I want to

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be I'm just very thankful because it it is. I

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have had multiple people be like, yeah I saw that video.

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Oh awesome, that's excellent. Yeah, exactly, all right.

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I hope it helped drive people.

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You know, it's hard to you kind of I least

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try to, you know, you want like these discrete feedback

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of like oh this worked, this got me more readers.

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But a lot of times it's very hard unless you

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get literally people telling you I did I saw that

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or I clicked on this thing and then I found

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you through it. Otherwise it's just like you get sale.

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Sometimes you're like I don't know how that happened. You know,

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you just have to, you know, you take lots of shots,

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and you try and write the make your best work

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and spread it as far as you can and hope, hope,

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hope for the best.

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Yeah, well the time, I know what you mean.

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My books, Like I released a book last year, and

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I wouldn't have been able to tell if like somebody

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talking about it spiked my sales or not, because they

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were pretty high for a while. But if somebody were

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to do it now because my sales have been flatlined

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since I say July or August, so now i'd be

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able to gauge it. But when it first came out,

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there was like no way.

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To tell no. You just make a big push and yeah,

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like I I will just lump everything into that big push,

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you know. I you know, I talked to everybody I

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know it, yell as much as I possibly can about

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the newest book. Please go buy it, please preorder, please

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It's really good, I promise.

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Yeah. Yeah, I was glad that I found you. I

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found you on a TikTok video where you were describing

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your book Conquest. I explained this last time, but i'll

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go over it quickly again. You were talking about your

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book Conquest. It was like it's like, sorry, my mind's

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going blank. But were wolf bikers? Yeah, And I was

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just like Jesus Christ, I got to check this out.

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And I'm so glad I did.

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And then when I was about halfway through it, as

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I often do if I'm really enjoying myself, I contacted

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you and I was like.

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Yeah, I got to have you on the show. I

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appreciate it. I mean, I'm trying. I'm busy as gambit

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would say, I'm trying to make a name for myself,

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you know, like in my own small way, going through

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a publishing crisis, identity crisis, I guess, but just writing

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writing a lot too. Yeah.

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I noticed that because while I follow you on social

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media and you had a video. You did a short

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video I forget where it was. I think it was

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Instagram where you went through your disappointments, and then you

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had another video right after it saying, yeah, you know

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what screwed that other video. I'm just going to try

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to be happy with what I have.

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Well, I mean, it's like I think we all go

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through it, uh, and I don't necessarily. I think a

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lot of times that is a part of I've been

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and a lot of authors come and talk to me

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about it, people who are in my similar place as

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me where and you are, I would probably count you

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among them. Where it's for indie horror, we're doing very well.

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People know who we are, people read us, you know,

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but there's this feeling of like you're ceiling above you,

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like you're not breaking into the net where you want

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to be. I think all of us, and like it's

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not it's not just it's into any level right of

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career success. However you want to measure that, there is

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always this like I want to do more. I want

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to like authors in general, Like I I think I

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probably have said this somewhere, but I rankle against the

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idea of that authors are like these ephemeral artists types,

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because most authors I know are the hardest working people.

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We are have so many we wear a bunch of hats,

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We're constantly working really really hard, and I and it

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feels like blue collar work to me, you know, like

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I get just as tired from a day of this

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as I did when I worked in a construction warehouse.

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And we are all pushing against this, like at some

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point it feels like a real ceiling. It feels like

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there is like actual forces keeping us from breaking into

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another level. And you don't see people talk about that

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on social media. You see people post their successes. You

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never see you don't see a lot of struggle. You

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don't see a lot of and people who are you know?

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I who are you know? There's people who are like, well,

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I think you're great, I think you are successful, and

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I'm like, you're right, I am successful because if you

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showed me, then me now from when I just started public,

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I would be like, wow, Robbie, we did it. We

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really did something. You like, you have so many books

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and you've you are like considered. You know, there's there

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are people who, you know, consider me a peer who

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I would be Stoker Award winners, like really impressive like

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things like that, and I like, I should be happy

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about that, you know, I should be content about that.

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But there is a thing in me that's like always

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wanting more and wanting more, and like, don't be content.

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Always strive for the next level. And it's you know that.

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I think it's when I started self publishing, it was

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largely because I was very frustrated with the traditional publishing

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process of having to find an agent and then the

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many steps after. Like that's just the first step and

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it's incredibly difficult, so trying. I got frustrated with that.

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I'm like, why I can do this myself. I believe

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in myself, to believe in my writing, and that frustration

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of like this isn't getting me as much as I want,

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as fast as I want, despite how much effort and

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how much work I put into this. And I was

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just like talking about it and honestly on Instagram. But

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it's I mean, it's also working out of my head

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and I took a break. You know, I published so

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many books this year. I've only published words at christ

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and Read and that's not going to change. I'm not

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going to publish anything the rest of this year. But

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you knows that that kind of quiet, which for most

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people one book a year is great. Most people are like, oh,

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I put a book out this year, that's good. But

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for me, it's like, I have a whole bunch of

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manuscripts ready and I could publish any of them if

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I really wanted to. I wanted to let it sit

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and let that and let not have it, not have

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that work distract me, because I am a work all like,

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and I tend to like, oh, I'm having some sort

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of you know, question about what I should do next.

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Just make more work, do more stuff, and don't worry

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about it. Just keep going. And I really wanted to, like,

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let's take a break, let's slow down a little bit.

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You know, I'm still I'm still doing plenty of shows

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and conventions and things like that, and I'm still like

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involved in a writing group and the HWA and all

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those things. In my new podcast, which is a you know,

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so much of work? Yeah exactly. Uh So I was like,

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but don't publish something. Figure it out in your head

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what you want to do, and I have, and it's again,

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it's more like it's a lot of that sitting and

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thinking and I'm not quitting like I think some people

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thought that that was a potentiality, like I'm going to stop. No,

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it's more like it was always going to be what's

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the path I'm going to take? I work, really, I

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work great when I have a plan, when I have

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a purpose, you know, I know, I push in this

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direction and I kind of have that again, and I will.

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If you wanted to talk to me and hear me

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ran publishing, I could easily do that for hours. But yeah,

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at a certain point it's like I don't want to

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stay on the soap box. The another day, I.

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Totally understand what you mean, because well, unlike, like you've

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got how many books you've got published, like seventeen books now, yeah, seventeen,

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Like I have two. And I'm pretty quite sure I'm

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older that like, probably by quite a bit than you are.

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I'm older than I Look, I'm I'm forty years old, Okay.

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Well, I'm still I'm older. I'm fifty one, so you.

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Don't get empty one. You look good for fifty one.

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Oh well, thank you.

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Every everyone says that, and I appreciate it, but the

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fact that remains. Like I heard Almakatsu, I don't know

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if it was on your podcast or somewhere.

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She She's definitely did talk about it on my podcast,

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about worrying about breaking through, you know, to getting I'm like,

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you're Amakatsu, yeah, but she want to you want to

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stoke her.

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She was talking about not like missing opportunities. She's she

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feels like she's missing some opportunities because of her age,

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and I'm like, well shit, I'm fifty. I'm not that

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far behind her.

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Right.

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So the point I'm getting to here is I think

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I'm I'm going to be happy. I think I've let

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go of the big dream, you know what I mean.

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If it happens, then great, I'm not going to turn

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it down. But I'm just gonna self publish, I think,

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and maybe hybrid a little bit with small, small presses

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if I can, because my mental health is more important

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than grinding my ambitions into the ground. To be honest

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with you, I'm quite happy where I am. I love

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doing this show. I love talking to authors, as I

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mentioned to you before, but I also love writing. I

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just enjoy, you know, losing myself in a world that

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I'm creating. And if I can just keep doing that,

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then I think I'll die happy.

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00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:00.840
That's a very healthy perspective. That is the mindset that.

229
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And it's not always there.

230
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No, I mean no, is that I think we all

231
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we all all every writer, even artists, any artists kind

232
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of you. I would think that at some point you

233
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have these moments where because very very very very few

234
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people become that top tippity top, like there's only one

235
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Stephen King and there never will be another one exactly

236
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:30.480
like and that like that is impossible, you can, you know,

237
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I don't. I don't necessarily want to be I say

238
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I want to be Stephen King, because I think that's

239
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what we all like. We want to be that nationally

240
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.679
claimed bestseller at like some point in our lives were like,

241
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.000
I'm gonna I want to be that. I want to

242
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.000
be Stephen King, especially when I was younger. Yeah, and nowadays,

243
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I don't. I don't really, you know, that's not necessarily

244
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I don't want to really want to be the next

245
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Stephen King, if I might say that sometimes I want

246
00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.799
to be the first Robbie Dormant. But I do want

247
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to reach more readers. I want to get more I

248
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don't know.

249
00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.080
I could, honestly, I could see something happening for you,

250
00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:10.039
because you write these really fun stories that have They

251
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:13.000
often have a message, as we've discussed in the past,

252
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.679
but that that's not even the important part. The important

253
00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:19.720
part is that they're fun, and they're very readable. They're

254
00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:24.960
easy to digest, and it's written well. The characters are

255
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.440
almost always great. I mean these you write all the

256
00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.639
things that I enjoy reading, and you bundle it up

257
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in a fun package. And that's why I love your

258
00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.600
work so much. And if that's not marketable, then I

259
00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:39.360
don't know what.

260
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.759
I think. Some of my strife is the fact that

261
00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:47.000
I agree like I I try to do like. That's

262
00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.440
part of what I'm like. My goals is making that

263
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:52.960
thing that you describe, because I also like that thing,

264
00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.200
you know, I like, I'm writing for me first, and

265
00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.519
certainly I try, and I think lately I've been a

266
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little bit more experimental and pishing my boundaries a little

267
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bit more in different directions while trying to keep it

268
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.399
like readable and fast paced, like I'm trying to like

269
00:15:10.519 --> 00:15:15.080
stretch like in partially because I do find it fun.

270
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I find it like like you say, like the writing process.

271
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I don't want to just write the same book every time,

272
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which sometimes I feel like I'm doing because you end

273
00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:25.759
up and you write enough books, you kind of hit

274
00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.320
those same story shapes and same character types. You're like, no,

275
00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.360
I need to push myself in this out a little bit,

276
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.159
just just just for my own edification at some point,

277
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:36.320
just for my own enjoyment, Like I want to write

278
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.080
something a little bit different this time. I want to

279
00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:42.120
press it in this direction or that one. It's more that,

280
00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:44.720
like I don't know, I send things to agents, all

281
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:48.000
that I have querying. I've been quering now for you know,

282
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.960
I think over a year straight with different projects, multiple

283
00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:56.360
different manuscripts, and you know, it's not I know it's

284
00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:58.639
not my writing. I think there's a lot of great

285
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.240
writers in the world, and most of it are traditionally published.

286
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:02.679
You're not.

287
00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.320
That's not a measurement of writing quality. It's nothing in

288
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.919
the people. And sure, I think there's a probably a

289
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:13.559
large subset of readers who are still under that understanding,

290
00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.399
they go, Oh, it's traditionally published means it's good, means

291
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.240
it's good writing even if I don't like the book,

292
00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.240
and then indie or self publishing, Oh, there's no gatekeeper,

293
00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.039
so that it's not good writing. I'm it's more that

294
00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.919
frustration of like, I've worked so hard and I think

295
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:32.240
I am right what they what they I am what

296
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.799
you would think would go on a bookshelf in Barnes

297
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:39.039
and Noble, and it's just not there. And it's that frustration.

298
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.919
But I think ultimately I'm like, I have to let

299
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.519
that go because I can't it will it will drive

300
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:45.440
me crazy.

301
00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:47.320
Well, it's it's.

302
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.200
Maybe good mentally to let it go, but I would

303
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.279
say keep going because I mean, you hear stories all

304
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:53.720
the time of.

305
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:55.840
These really big writers who.

306
00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:01.000
Who submitted their work for years and yours and got

307
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.359
nowhere and then they got that one big break and

308
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:06.640
you know it could happen. It could definitely happen. Just

309
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.960
keep your eyes and ears open and keep pushing forward.

310
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.880
Just if you're yeah, just like try to adapt the

311
00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.079
same sort of you know, mindset at the same time.

312
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.759
Do you do you have like a you must have

313
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:24.079
like a pretty good following.

314
00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.000
I mean, it's hard to measure. Sometimes I feel like

315
00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:33.279
I do, but it is like and like, there's always

316
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:39.599
these variables, and I think I I certainly have. I'm

317
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.079
I have a pretty good number of social media followers,

318
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.200
and Instagram have a pretty good number of people who

319
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.839
subscribe them. I deleted my TikTok. I've been telling people that, Yeah,

320
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.799
I'm done with TikTok. I wasn't on there really anymore anyway,

321
00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.720
it was not good for my mental health. Yeah, the

322
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:57.920
feed I used too much for me and I was

323
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:01.599
starting to drive me crazy. And now that the weird

324
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:03.519
all the weird political stuff going on with it, I'm like,

325
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.200
I don't need that. And so I'm mostly just on

326
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.880
Instagram and I guess threads technically because they cross post.

327
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.720
But and now on YouTube for the podcast and you know,

328
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.559
obviously podcasting everywhere. But and I have a bunch of

329
00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:21.279
newsletter followers subscribers to my newsletter, and I know in person,

330
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.759
I have lots of local fans who I like. I

331
00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.880
get recognized in public occasionally, like in Orlando, just because

332
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:34.000
people buy books from me. But I think this is

333
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.240
probably a thing that most authors face who don't have

334
00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:41.200
like an incredibly massive following where it's like still trying

335
00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.279
to get every all those people to get your newest

336
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.839
book and get them like to let them know it

337
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.279
exists and to pay attention to you. It's like again,

338
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.240
it's that we're a victim of like the you know,

339
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.839
the the attention economy where everyone is split in a

340
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.680
million different directions and getting those you know, the super fans,

341
00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.880
as they say, the people who like do pay attention

342
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.000
to everything you do and buy every new book as

343
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.640
it comes out, are very difficult to acquire and to

344
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:15.720
keep and to keep their attention, just like anything. And

345
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.799
so it's like I have again, it just doesn't because

346
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.559
it's not like, Oh, I go to it as show

347
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:26.240
and there's not a thousand people out there standing cheering

348
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.640
my name. Immediately I go, oh, then I can't. It's

349
00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:32.839
hard to like wrap my brain around these people that

350
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.240
I can't see all at once in a big crowd.

351
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.240
Yeah.

352
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.000
Yeah, Also, you've had you've run into some bad luck.

353
00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.839
I'm I'm going to assume here that when you release

354
00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:46.359
this book as Curse, you went through a lot of issues.

355
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:51.640
I but I'm fine now, I'm fine, Now, I'm okay.

356
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.839
Now about it. I'm not like I don't I'm not

357
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.160
sad or depressed or angry, which I was all of

358
00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.759
those things when it came out. Yeah, the this Biggest

359
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.920
Cursed is a it's a meta, it's a book within

360
00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:06.079
a book because it's a book about a curse to

361
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:07.400
choose your an adventure book.

362
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:07.960
Yah.

363
00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:14.279
Choose your own Adventure is a U copyrighted, trademarked term

364
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.920
owned by the Choose Your Adventure book people, and they

365
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:20.400
are incredibly litigious. And because I use that, I don't

366
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:22.880
use the term in the actual novel at all, but

367
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.680
because I used to do the marketing blurb, they found

368
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.640
it and they issued see some assists and they're a

369
00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.759
big giant company and I'm just a meete. Yeah, I

370
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.480
did manage to get back up in most times, in

371
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:36.960
most places, in some way, shape or form. So and

372
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.400
that's and I'm I have to be happy with that

373
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:41.920
because I'm I don't have the money to pay for

374
00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:44.119
a lawyer to try and actually fight it.

375
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.680
Yeah, but that that's that's God.

376
00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:51.599
You have a uh embittered you a bit towards like

377
00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.599
publishing because that, I mean, there is really like the

378
00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:00.799
David versus Goliath type situation where the big giant is

379
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:02.000
squishing the little guy.

380
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.799
Right. Yeah, I mean they also fought with They fought

381
00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.519
with Netflix, like they sued Netflix because a Black Mirror

382
00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.000
episode did the same thing that I did. Because they

383
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.799
also probably didn't even think about it, because I think

384
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:15.799
and most people I tell this too, they go, that's

385
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:20.119
a trademark term people own too, And I think they

386
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:24.200
and I mean like purpose it is purposeful because they

387
00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:27.200
don't want to be there is like legal precedent that

388
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.440
if your term is used enough, if that term is

389
00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:34.559
used enough, it becomes a genericized title that anyone can use,

390
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.319
and they don't want that to happen. They want to

391
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:38.920
still be able to profit only they want to be

392
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.039
able to profit it from it and not let anyone

393
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:44.480
else do it. So they are they are incredibly litigious

394
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.279
because I think they realize that it could easily become

395
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.799
that genericized thing where like at a certain point, and

396
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.519
it takes a lawsuit and I'm probably lots of money

397
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.400
to pay for it for years because they probably would

398
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.960
fight tooth and nail over it. I did what I

399
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.839
needed to do to get it back, the book back

400
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:11.160
on the marketplace. Uh, And I'm I try and be

401
00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.079
very careful with every book from now on about hey,

402
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.880
is there anything in this that could potentially and it's

403
00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.400
like not. They don't really care about what's in the book.

404
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:23.799
Most of these places like they're they're not going to

405
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:27.839
read the book. They don't know I exist until one

406
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.319
of their lawyers Google searches choose your own Adventure and

407
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:32.839
they find it in a book that's not to choose

408
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:35.079
your an adventure book, which is what happened. I'm pretty

409
00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:38.200
sure they just have like it probably multiple people who

410
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:42.519
just feed terms into some bot, and the bot will return, Oh,

411
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.359
this is a new entry and it's not from you know,

412
00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.359
it's not they live from us? Now from us? All right,

413
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.559
send it, send the season assist. I don't know it's

414
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:57.799
that it's gonna that's not necessarily. I don't really going

415
00:22:57.839 --> 00:22:59.960
to hold that against publishing a hold that against you know,

416
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:04.559
corporations to capitalism absolutely, which is I Hey, I write

417
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:09.680
plenty about how capitalism is bad, so you certainly do. Yeah.

418
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:12.519
Did you know that the heimlich maneuver cannot be called

419
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:13.960
that anymore? For similar reason?

420
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.640
I did not, But it doesn't now everything. I'm not

421
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:20.039
surprised by it. Anymore because of my experience. Like I'm like, oh,

422
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.480
of course, of course, yeah, of course we have somebody,

423
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:28.880
some some company is clean something for god. If people

424
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:31.640
can't do things we have, we like you can't play

425
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:38.279
music on YouTube. I'm like, okay, yeah, okay, it's fever right, yeah,

426
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.000
but yeah, I have to take first aid for my job,

427
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:41.720
my day job.

428
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.119
And I learned it there. They call it like up

429
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.319
thrust now or something like that. Oh come on, guys,

430
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.519
Like you can say Heimlich maneuver because everyone knows what

431
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.599
that is. But you can't print literature with that in

432
00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.920
it because the family Heimlick, the guy who created that

433
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:04.440
sort of maneuver right to save somebody from choking, he's gone,

434
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:08.160
long gone. But the family, the remaining family, Uh, they

435
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:11.119
trademarked the term. They want to make money off it,

436
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.519
so nobody nobody's using it. Everyone's like, fuck you, We're

437
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:17.240
gonna just call it something else.

438
00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:24.920
I I don't know. I mean, like there's this desperate

439
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:29.799
grasp from everyone to like clean things, just to make

440
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.359
as much ring as much money out of them as possible,

441
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.559
and like there's I don't know, this is the thing

442
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:39.839
where like obviously there's some cases where I'm like, yo,

443
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.599
people should get paid for their work. People. But when

444
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:47.119
it's a guy who invented a medical it's just a

445
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:50.079
it's you know, terminology for a maneuver for something to

446
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.839
keep people from choking to death. Do we need that?

447
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:55.559
Do you need to do that? Do you need to

448
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.039
coprate like and like and just you know, the best

449
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.400
time to create confusion in the marketplace into to to

450
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.440
is when someone's choking to death and we need split

451
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.400
second decisions. And you might go, oh, that guy needs

452
00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:11.720
the Heimlich maneuver, but you might not. And let's say

453
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:14.319
it's someone who knows this and doesn't say a Heimlich

454
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.240
because they can, and then you create thirty seconds of

455
00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:20.240
confusion and this person may die. Yeah, I don't like,

456
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:22.960
maybe take the l on this one, guys and not

457
00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:25.839
be so greedy.

458
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:27.519
Yeah, it's it's ridiculous.

459
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.839
I mean, can't you just say, yeah, we you know,

460
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.079
Grandpa came up with that.

461
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:34.319
Yeah, and you save a lot of lives.

462
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.880
Instead, it's like we need to soak, you know, wring

463
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.279
this out, get more money, milk, milk it baby.

464
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.880
Eye to the pastors. I boy again, more more rant

465
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:45.440
and raven.

466
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.599
Yeah, yeah, I know I know how you well, I

467
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.759
don't know how you feel. Like that would have been frustrating.

468
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:52.119
That might have been the end of it for me.

469
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.119
Oh, I mean it's it was a lot tru I

470
00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:59.160
mean luckily. I think if it was my first book,

471
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.200
I might have gotten a little bit more perturbed about it.

472
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.200
But because I've had so many, it's very easy. It's

473
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:10.839
easier for meeting now at this point kind of go oh, well,

474
00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:13.240
that book's out and I did what I could with

475
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.640
it for the pre order drive, and I will continue to,

476
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.160
you know, once in a while advertise it however I

477
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.359
can whenever I'm an idea for it. But it's out

478
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.279
in the world and I hope that people can find it.

479
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.880
It's it's a lot of matter of like trying to

480
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:34.119
advertise yourself. Is how much paandwidth you have to find

481
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.440
new readers. And like I'm able to go, well, it's

482
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.359
one book. One book. I'm I'm going to publish more.

483
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.319
I want to publish more books, and like it's it's

484
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.079
okay if I can. You know, I was upset at

485
00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:49.599
the time, was very very upset. But and it took

486
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.160
months of me sending emails back and forth to different

487
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:55.519
places and changing art on it and changing the blurbs

488
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:58.400
and all this stuff, and eventually it got to reprove

489
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:03.359
to back where it was. But it was pressure. But

490
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:08.079
it's also you know, I I try again and body

491
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.079
like it was a learning experience. Now it's another thing.

492
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:15.640
I know, another thing I went through that will harden me.

493
00:27:16.359 --> 00:27:19.599
You know, had my skin and toughened me up and go.

494
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.599
You know I can keep going. It's not you know,

495
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:25.480
I'm very stubborn. You can also use.

496
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.799
The fact that the title this book is cursed is is.

497
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:33.559
That I tell people what I sell it to them.

498
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.119
I'm like, this focus literally is literally cursed in more

499
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:40.599
ways than one. It's you know, I won't spoil the story.

500
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:46.480
But yeah, yeah, recently this year you said you only

501
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:51.119
released one book, right, yes, Christ and Red. Now can

502
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:53.440
you tell us what the this book is about, because

503
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.079
it's it's a fascinating book.

504
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.240
It is a religious horror novel. The Elevator pitch for

505
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:04.119
the for The plot is a hot tempered gay pastor

506
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:07.359
trying to heal a writing church. Tries to heal a

507
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.039
writing church and struggles with his faith insanity in the

508
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.240
face of an unhinged Zealot. So, a gay pastor and

509
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.200
his small family moves to a rural town in Georgia

510
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:23.640
to replace a the old pastor who mysteriously died and

511
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.440
tries to kind of heal a community. Basically the community

512
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.160
is kind of split and was split even before he arrived,

513
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:34.640
and he's trying to He's a good man trying to

514
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:36.960
do the right thing. He's a firm he's a believer.

515
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.319
It's it's not a book necessarily about losing your faith.

516
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.359
It's more about confronting your faith. I would say, and like,

517
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:51.240
I'm an atheist, but I was raised in a church

518
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:55.759
just like this that's in this book, and I don't

519
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:58.160
it's not really about The book is not about if

520
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:02.200
God exists. It's more about like the kind of this

521
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.359
meeting of I was explaining this today, So it's good.

522
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.640
That's some fresh on my mind. It's this kind of

523
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:13.400
in I love writing about identity, and I think it

524
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.880
takes it kind of feels it occurs in all of

525
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.319
my books that they tend to be about, you know,

526
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.160
wars over people's identity and like why people kind of

527
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.440
over usually people, why people escalate to violence is because

528
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.359
their identity is challenged. And in this book you have

529
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:33.839
the pastor is the main character, and he is this

530
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:38.960
representation of of evangelical Christianity, where he is a firm

531
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.079
believer in Christ and God and the New Testament and

532
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:49.079
embodies that the more kinder, softer Christianity, where that Jesus

533
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.480
did kind of teach in his book in the New

534
00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.960
Testament and be welcoming and let all people into the

535
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:59.440
church and become a safe place and try and former

536
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.960
community around it versus something that is equally is considered

537
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.160
evangelical Christianity, which is a person who doesn't worship God,

538
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.039
doesn't worship Christ, doesn't worship the Bible. Instead, they worship suffering.

539
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:15.200
That is actually what demonstrably when you see what they

540
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.480
do when they what their behavior shows is they worship pain,

541
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:24.039
they worship suffering. They should worship blood, and they don't

542
00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:27.599
worship what Christ taught, even though they may use the

543
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:28.839
word Jesus all the time.

544
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:31.119
A good example of that, I think would be to

545
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:35.960
watch Mel Gibson's movie The what's that called the Jesus

546
00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:38.240
Christ Passion and Passion of the Christ. Yeah, that's like

547
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:39.680
a torture part in movie.

548
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:42.440
It isn't and then like that is a perfect example

549
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.519
because there's a section in the book where the pastor

550
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.359
talks to the antagonist and they're they're mirrors of each other,

551
00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:52.200
and they could easily have become each other if their

552
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.799
lives had gone different directions. And there's a moment in

553
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:00.720
the book where it's like, you try and like Christ

554
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.880
to just those moments where he dies. That's everything about him,

555
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:07.640
is just when he is tortured and dies at a

556
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:11.960
on a on the crucifix, and that is that's a

557
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:14.559
small part of his life and you shouldn't take That's

558
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:17.400
not the lesson to learn from reading the Bible. It's

559
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:21.000
not the lesson to learn from from listening to his

560
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.559
preachings in the Bible, even though that is what you've

561
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.640
kind of have narrowed his life to. And that the

562
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:32.160
fact that the most successful Christian movie ever made is

563
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:36.759
just torture. Yeah, it is watching a man get tortured

564
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:38.880
and die and that's all it is. And you're like,

565
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:43.559
why if that doesn't tell you exactly those And that's

566
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:48.119
exactly what the antagonist of the book kind of embodies,

567
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:50.960
is like this where he's like and he you know,

568
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:54.880
hates gay people, even though he has tattoos. And that's

569
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:56.759
another thing I put in the book, where like there's

570
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.000
many things in the Bible that say don't get tattooed,

571
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.200
as there are you know, don't be gay, very little,

572
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:06.400
there's not a lot. And yet he has tattoos. And

573
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:08.359
there's plenty of people who have tattoos but will also

574
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:10.960
say the Bible says, don't get don't be gay, And

575
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.319
you're like, well, you have tattoos, you eat shellfish. Like again,

576
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:19.200
it's like this this unwillingness to try and be good

577
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:26.559
but instead be hateful, you know, be angry, enjoy the

578
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:31.519
suffering and torment and torture of others. Yeah. Uh, and

579
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:35.039
that that's the the the you know. I it's a

580
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.799
lot of my religious traumas and from a childhood dumped

581
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:40.960
into the book. Plus like a lot of you know,

582
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:45.359
I have very close another ex evangelical friend, as they say,

583
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.720
and uh that she helped me kind of get my

584
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:53.240
brain around what this book would become. Uh. I'm very

585
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.599
proud of it. I think it's my best best work.

586
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:59.599
Yet it's certainly not a fun book. That's the other

587
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.160
thing of this book is very like a lot of

588
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:07.000
my books, even when they're like, you know, harrowing and

589
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:09.839
it can be hard and painful at times, or generally

590
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:12.079
do have more fun because they're faster paced and there's

591
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.279
a lot of action. This book, there's not a not

592
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.680
a not a fun book, and I had to take

593
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:21.400
breaks writing it. It's very heavy, yeah and hard.

594
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:23.640
Yeah, when I say that your books are fun, this

595
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.400
one sort of detracts from.

596
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:25.799
That a little.

597
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.759
But yeah, still it's still a little like I found

598
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:31.519
it fun when I first started, Like I knew it

599
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.440
was obviously, I mean the cover, the title, you know

600
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:35.799
it's going to be Christian horror.

601
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:37.799
But I kind of went in with.

602
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.599
Reservations because I don't like reading Christian horror. But once

603
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:44.319
I got into it, it was just like, yeah, this

604
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.240
is a Robbie Dorman story with like, no matter how

605
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:50.279
hard we're going here, it's still Robbie Dorman.

606
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.799
I I mean, it's always going to be let's think,

607
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.799
it's always like you can't escape your own your own voice,

608
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.119
roowned style. It's always going to be kind of the

609
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:03.160
overarching principles no matter how like I really I really

610
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.240
honed in on my language on it, truly try to

611
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:08.360
cut it to the bone, really try to be as

612
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:11.440
narrow on my language as possible, Like I'm never gonna

613
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:15.039
write exactly like Cormack McCarthy, but I did like have

614
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.760
that in mind, where like how much can I cut?

615
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:21.280
How little can I include in this? I don't know

616
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.119
my books are. I try not to make them preachy.

617
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:26.239
I don't want like I in general terms, like I

618
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:30.119
do write about progressive things. I don't want them to

619
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:33.800
feel preachy. I want them to feel about battles about

620
00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.559
you know, about truth, like I want them to feel authentic,

621
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:42.320
and sometimes that means dancing in religion and ugly topics

622
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:47.639
that you know, I don't know. There's some people who

623
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.679
eat this up and want only this, they only want ugly,

624
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.480
heavy books, and other people just like again, that's the

625
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.800
it's kind of the variety of horror readers where some

626
00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:00.480
people loved. All they want is kind of like fun

627
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.079
can't be slashers and like, you know, sillier, funnier camp.

628
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:08.880
You're leaning more into action, more into that element of horror,

629
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:14.000
which is just as legitimate. I'm not arguing against it.

630
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:16.920
But then you are like, oh, I have this really heavy,

631
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.880
hard book about religion and about real things in real life,

632
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:26.360
and they're like, oh okay, especially I mean especially the

633
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.800
way the world, like you know, with all the political

634
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:31.280
tension right now, Like there's a lot of people who

635
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.280
don't They want only escapism, they don't want well.

636
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:36.400
You know, real life topics.

637
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.760
That's an interesting topic too, because you you you go

638
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:44.880
through this story and you don't mention any of the politics.

639
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:49.679
All you do is mention this one isolated incident.

640
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:58.280
I I don't want to. I don't know. It's to

641
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:06.519
me the book could easily spin out into being about

642
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.320
a lot of things.

643
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:08.920
Yeah.

644
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:12.280
Yeah, the second you bring Trump into it, Yeah, you've

645
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.039
lost col I feel like you might have lost control

646
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:16.920
because it's going to go in that area, right.

647
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:18.679
Yeah, it's it's not and I don't want it to be.

648
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:21.440
And like it's not about him, and it's not like

649
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.920
he's he's been brought up.

650
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.440
Yeah, even if you brought up like Christian nationalism, that

651
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.599
that would maybe derail it a little.

652
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:32.360
No, And like I don't want it to be. I

653
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.800
wanted to be about these characters. Yeah, I think ultimately

654
00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:37.679
and there and in some way, yeah, there is, And

655
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.320
I think you can look at this. There's a lot

656
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:41.039
of books that do this, and I don't think. I

657
00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:43.039
think some readers never pick up on this stuff, but

658
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.119
I think as writers we tend to see it more

659
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:48.880
clearly because our brains are wired that way. We're constantly

660
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:51.119
working on it. But it's like you can sometimes see

661
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:55.199
writers have these characters, but the characters aren't they are

662
00:36:55.239 --> 00:37:00.599
all they are are metaphor. That character is not a person.

663
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.519
They are just a metaphor for some big thing. They

664
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.039
represent something very big. And then there's another character, probably

665
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:12.320
the antagonist, who's another big thing. And the story is

666
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:16.679
that those two, those two not the characters bashing against

667
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:19.800
each other, but those two ideas that they represent bashing

668
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.880
against each other. And I and like, that's good, it's

669
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.320
good to have that in your story. But I try

670
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.119
and layer in where it's not there. There is that

671
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:34.760
that's underneath, where the character still overarches, overrides, just two

672
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:42.519
big ideas bashing into each other. You can't. I don't know.

673
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:47.679
There's an element of I'm not trying to write a

674
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:53.719
nonfiction piece about politics and this year or whatever, this

675
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:58.039
era this time. I'm trying to write a piece about

676
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:06.320
these characters and navigating religion and navigating faith, And you

677
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:09.199
have to I had to keep it pretty narrow to

678
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:12.920
do that. I don't want to write arguments about, Like

679
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.519
I don't want it to turn into Thanksgiving or Christmas

680
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:18.119
dinner where like half a family, you know, is voted

681
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:19.440
for this guy and the other half of it for

682
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:21.480
this guy, and we're just yelling at each other. Like

683
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:23.840
that's not very meaningful and it doesn't really get to

684
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.280
the down into human nature very much. If I'm going

685
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.800
to write about that, that's what the book is going

686
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:33.159
to be about, right, And I don't think that's and

687
00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:37.840
it certainly may be about cultish thinking, but it's not

688
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:40.320
really about God anymore about religion.

689
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:48.760
Yeah, but you do also bring sort of rationalization in

690
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.280
there with with the main character, Pastor David.

691
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.000
He even though.

692
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.199
There's periods where he wants to succumb to evil or

693
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:01.199
I wouldn't say evil. I don't know why I said evil.

694
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.400
I meant to say violence. He wants to succumb to violence,

695
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:09.960
but he's able to hold himself back. Where Eli, the

696
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.840
antagonist of the story, he's ready to go at any point.

697
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:19.000
He yes, I mean the story opens up with a scene.

698
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:20.760
You know. I don't want to spoil any of this

699
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:23.760
book because I think it's I went in pretty well blind,

700
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:27.119
and I think readers will be kind of surprised by

701
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:31.039
the beginning because it's pretty it's pretty harrowing. But I

702
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:35.840
think like even with like the title Christ or Words

703
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:39.880
of Christ and read those Bibles exist.

704
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:40.960
But if you just.

705
00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:44.159
Read those words, the words that are in red, you

706
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:48.000
would find a very peaceful and loving and forgiving religion.

707
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:50.760
But you have a lot of people twisting it into

708
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:54.159
something else. You have Eli's out there who spew hate

709
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:58.079
instead of love. And I think the book was at

710
00:39:58.199 --> 00:39:58.920
least what I.

711
00:39:58.800 --> 00:39:59.320
Got from it.

712
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:03.920
I felt like the message of the the message that

713
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:09.480
I got was a love in the end should.

714
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:11.280
Defeat all.

715
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.239
I mean, I think it's funny that you say evil,

716
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.559
because I think that's the question in his mind. And

717
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:21.800
I think in David's mind about succumbing to my anger

718
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:25.280
and letting it take control of me. Is it and

719
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:28.559
like in some case like it's is it righteous? You

720
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:32.159
know to have? Is it? And like even it certainly earned.

721
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:36.119
Eli deserves his anger. ELI deserves his violence by the

722
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.719
end of the book, and then you would argue, probably

723
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.119
at the beginning of the book, Eli probably deserves retribution,

724
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:44.840
deserves justice. You could argue, and that's I think the

725
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:48.079
question of like how much of this is just simple revenge,

726
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:55.519
you know, our vengeance or justice or righteousness. And you know,

727
00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:59.519
David's anger is my anger. I have a lot of

728
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:03.880
anger towards you know, all these types of people who

729
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.079
really just want excuses to hate people they love. They

730
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:16.639
want to feel that feeling. They want to have that anger,

731
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:18.800
They want to be fed by that hate and that anger,

732
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:20.920
and it makes them feel good. Being angry makes you

733
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.519
feel good if fires off brain chemicals that make you

734
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:29.639
feel good, and that you know, I have done work

735
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:32.800
on myself to try and stem that, to try and

736
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:35.119
be to be a better person. A lot of that

737
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:40.400
is realizing that you cannot indulge in you deserved anger

738
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:43.880
in some cases like yes, it's there if I really

739
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:46.719
need it, And it's not to say that you never do.

740
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:49.920
Sometimes there are situations where you need to tap into that,

741
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:56.400
but largely it is healthier for a normal person, you know,

742
00:41:56.440 --> 00:42:00.360
someone who's not in a horror novel, to take that

743
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.800
anger and think about it and then let it go

744
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:12.559
away and you'll have a happier life ultimately. And I

745
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.519
I don't like I'm I don't The question of the

746
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:18.360
book is never if is David in the right. I

747
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:21.880
think it's ultimately David's all. Yeah, David's telling people, Hey,

748
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.960
come to church and I'm gonna and we can join together.

749
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:27.719
We can have food together, we can be it can

750
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:31.679
be a welcoming place for literally everybody, and we can

751
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:39.559
be happier and peaceful together. But the question of the

752
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:43.360
book really is is it right for David to indulge

753
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:46.320
that anger? Is it the right thing for him to do,

754
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:53.239
to be vicious to Eli at times, to do things,

755
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:56.960
you know that to escalate things with Eli, perhaps even

756
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:02.400
depending on how you want to look at it, because

757
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.119
it certainly feels good. It feels good as David feels

758
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:08.639
good doing it, and I you feel good as a reader,

759
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:10.800
you're like, yeah, fuck you Eli, exactly.

760
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:11.440
Yeah.

761
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:16.639
But ultimately, is that is that right? Does and in

762
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:21.559
like in if you if it is this, the Christian

763
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:25.679
God that David believes in, certainly would probably say, no,

764
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:27.840
it's not right to indulge your anger like that. The

765
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:31.320
Christ would certainly say, like, you know, Christ, you know

766
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:37.280
the the the Pharisees aside, Christ very rarely indulged in anger,

767
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.000
and like you look, even looking at his death where

768
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:43.840
he said, you know, forgive them, father, you know, let

769
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:46.840
you know, let I they Yes, they've tortured and killed me,

770
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:52.280
but forgive them. And it's like this utter selflessness and

771
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:58.920
I try not to. This book in particular, tried very

772
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:05.239
hard to kind of point at a third thing, which

773
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:09.320
I in my podcast I had spoke to John Langan

774
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:16.199
and the Master h and he we talked about a

775
00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:19.800
third He talked because he wrote a piece about the

776
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:23.320
finding the third ending, finding like in one of his

777
00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:28.760
uh short short stories in his new collection. It's half

778
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:32.760
a story but also half him talking about him making

779
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:35.960
decisions about the story. And he's like, well, here's one

780
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.199
way you can end it, you know, a very kind

781
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:41.000
of typical horror ending where the main character dies because

782
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:43.360
of a mistake he makes. And then you could have

783
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:46.079
here's the other ending, where the main character doesn't I've

784
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:50.320
instead becomes sort of like a becomes a villain. And

785
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:54.360
he's like, no, actually, I think the ending I would

786
00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:57.000
chase this the third ending, which is neither of those things.

787
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:02.519
It's more complicated and not concrete. It doesn't tell you

788
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:08.760
the answer, and honestly, I I don't have an answer

789
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:12.960
to what is David Wright to do what he does

790
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:16.599
is you know it to not give away what happens

791
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:20.800
throughout the book. But I leave it the way it

792
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:25.039
is because I'm chasing that third thing. I'm chasing, like

793
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:31.000
you decide, you know, let the reader decides. And I

794
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:34.519
think sometimes some people love it and a couple and

795
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:36.400
I think some people are like, no, I want an end.

796
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:39.039
I want you to tell me. Yeah, like some readers

797
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:42.199
just want answers, they don't want questions. But I'm very

798
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:44.320
happy with it at the ending. And I think because

799
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:49.679
it leaves you with this feeling of I don't know,

800
00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:51.840
you know, to think about it. I want you to

801
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.400
think about it. I want you to think about anger

802
00:45:54.559 --> 00:46:00.159
and violence and like the fact that there's not just

803
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.360
in our world. You know, in a lot of cases

804
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:05.440
you can't and if you believe in an afterlife, you

805
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:07.960
believe in a heaven and a hell or whatever it is,

806
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.039
even you have to kind of let go of finding

807
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:16.480
justice on this earth. And even though it feels very good,

808
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:22.159
like to see someone who's done something very wrong pay

809
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:22.519
for it.

810
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:29.559
Yeah, I think letting go that keeps coming up in

811
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:34.239
this episode. I think, you know, letting go is a

812
00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:39.119
very big Buddhist term letting it be, letting go and

813
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:43.039
letting it be. I think that's that that rate there

814
00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:46.400
is the key to mental health.

815
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.400
Yes, I mean it's the I mean I I that

816
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.159
I you know, over the pandemic, I got really into

817
00:46:53.199 --> 00:47:00.400
mindfulness and to Buddhist principles. Tick me too, honestly, Yeah,

818
00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:04.239
Tichnan Yak, I don't know. I never say his name rightly.

819
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:11.400
Oh yeah, yeah. He passed away recently passed away, but

820
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:13.639
lived a very long life and wrote a lot of

821
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:18.119
books about kind of Buddhist principles and being mindful and present,

822
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:23.880
and I tried it got me through the pandemic, like

823
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:26.960
like having like centering yourself and being present and being

824
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:31.119
mindful and kind of using breathing to like I have.

825
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:33.320
I've noticed that I write that a little a lot

826
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.960
of books since I've started reading those books. Is like

827
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:40.239
letting characters and like the channeling anger. It's a lot

828
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:43.320
of like heat in your chest and heat like feeling

829
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:46.760
your body. And it's helped my writing, honestly, because it

830
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:51.239
helped has helped helped me like describe certain emotions bodily,

831
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:53.320
how your body reacts to feeling that way and like

832
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:55.559
it's like, yeah, first you get real hot. You could

833
00:47:55.559 --> 00:47:57.840
feel your chest rise, you can feel the heat, you

834
00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:00.559
could it could take over you know, blood rock to you,

835
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:02.920
to your to your to your skin, like you can

836
00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:08.760
feel it. And being, you know, having that mindfulness is

837
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.159
very important and I give that. I give those books

838
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:13.920
to as like gifts to people all the time. I'm like,

839
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:17.920
I think they could be helpful to literally everyone. Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah.

840
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.760
I mean they talk about enlightenment and all that, and

841
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:22.800
I think you're fine if you just have little moments

842
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:24.800
here and there of enlightenment. You don't need to becoming

843
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:26.360
an enlightened being right away.

844
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:29.079
No, no, no, no, it's but it's like literally walking

845
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:32.760
your dog. You could just be like you take a breath,

846
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:38.039
push the thoughts out of your head, you take a step.

847
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.280
I get things like that very simple and it brings

848
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:42.760
you and even like again, ten minutes a day can

849
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:44.880
bring you a lot of peace that I think absolutely

850
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:46.559
people would find very helpful.

851
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.159
I'll tell you this, It changed me completely.

852
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:54.800
I used to get very uptight about you know, my

853
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:59.719
writing time and uh podcasting time. But now it's so

854
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:03.000
much cheesier for me to say, Okay, this didn't work,

855
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:07.280
It's okay, next one, will you know what I mean?

856
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:10.280
And if not, then then you just keep going. And

857
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:12.800
it's it's it was hard to get there, but like

858
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:15.960
it works in other f facets of my of my

859
00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:16.519
life too.

860
00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.599
Right, Yes, I'm much more calm.

861
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:22.920
And relaxed and and honestly, like I can talk to

862
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:27.360
people people I don't I wouldn't particularly want to hang

863
00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:29.800
out with, Like when you're at work and you're talking

864
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:33.880
to the guy who's a complete racist, I can let

865
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:37.039
that go. And where before I would argue and I

866
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:41.880
would get into it with them, but now it's just like, what's.

867
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:41.559
It going to do?

868
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:45.159
All is me fighting back against this person right now

869
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:48.000
and in the place of work is only going to

870
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:52.920
escalate and bring about situations that nobody wants. So if

871
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:56.320
I'm able to walk away and just be like whatever,

872
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:59.320
then that's probably the better choice.

873
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:04.840
Yes, I And yeah, it's the like there's a I

874
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.159
don't know, it's not quite a mantra, but it is

875
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:13.880
the think globally, act locally and what can you control? Yeah,

876
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.760
you know, what can you touch that will actually affect things?

877
00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:20.840
How can you affect change? And arguing endlessly with some

878
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.559
person who you'll never change their mind. All you're going

879
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:27.000
to do is make yourself upset, not make them. You're

880
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:28.880
not going to change them. It's truing to be the

881
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:34.119
same person. So, and your energy is finite and important.

882
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:37.280
So and then like I extod this to my career,

883
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:39.320
but I try and put it everywhere where it's like

884
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:42.119
what what where can I put my energy where I

885
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:46.320
can have the most impact, And that is in relationships,

886
00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:48.840
but that's also in my writing, that's in my you know,

887
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:54.039
my miscellaneous social media. You know. I try to have that, yeah,

888
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:56.559
in my ethos where it's like, well, what's you know bandwidth?

889
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:58.159
People use that term all the time. But it's a

890
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.679
lot of like, well where can I affect change? Right?

891
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:03.920
Can I Can I do this small thing and be

892
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.880
it could be very meaningful, then I'll do it, you

893
00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:08.039
know exactly.

894
00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:12.000
Yeah, when it's important, when the time does come, then.

895
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:13.559
Yeah, like do it right.

896
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.599
But there's a lot of periods throughout life where it's

897
00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:20.199
just not important because all you're going to do is

898
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:21.719
create stress for everyone.

899
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:28.280
And it's I think that people it's also health healthier

900
00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:31.719
for your mental health because exactly you want to there's

901
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:36.039
a lot of people who in my friend group even

902
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:38.960
who feel guilt about like I'm not doing enough. You know,

903
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:41.440
things are going bad things are happening out in the world,

904
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:43.920
and I'm not doing enough to stop them. And I'm like,

905
00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:50.039
you can't stop them. It's okay to acknowledge you're mostly powerless,

906
00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:53.559
Like I think to it. This is another thing I

907
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:56.360
think about, Like, if you and we have so much

908
00:51:56.480 --> 00:52:02.880
access to news, to you know, to the presence of

909
00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:06.599
bad things evil, you might want to you can even

910
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:09.000
extend it to we have so much more knowledge of

911
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:12.280
that if you had given this the same kind of

912
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:16.519
information to like a medieval peasant who saw nothing. The

913
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:19.960
only sphere they saw was their little town and nothing

914
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.199
outside of it. Maybe they occasionally, like they would hear

915
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.320
that if the king died, they would know eventually, but

916
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.599
it would be weeks or months before they knew anything

917
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:30.360
about it. Like the only thing they would know is like, oh, yeah,

918
00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.679
our horse isn't doing great. We need to do something

919
00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:36.679
about our horse. What can we do? They wouldn't know

920
00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:40.719
about strife in three countries away from them. They wouldn't

921
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:43.920
They would know maybe if their taxes went up, because

922
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.159
someone would come and collect them but they're not going

923
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:49.320
to know about wars in other countries. They're not going

924
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:53.440
to know about a person who's sad three towns over

925
00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:57.599
or or three states over because of social media. I know,

926
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.599
I suddenly see on social media, Oh, this person's having

927
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:03.039
a hard time. I would never have known about that.

928
00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:05.880
If you expose that information to someone, you know, eight

929
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:08.880
hundred years ago, they would have lost their mind. It's

930
00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:10.920
too much. We're not meant for this, Yeah, we're not.

931
00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:15.519
It's okay to say I can't do anything about that,

932
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:20.599
and you can if you can extend that effort, Like,

933
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.159
if you know you can make some meaningful effort towards it,

934
00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:26.079
do it. But a lot of the time you can't

935
00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:28.800
do much. Yeah, like know what you can do, try

936
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:32.360
and achieve change that way, don't don't feel bad because

937
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:34.960
you didn't save the world every moment.

938
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:38.440
Yeah, it's also good for your own mental health in

939
00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:42.800
ways like when just say, somebody says with something really stupid. Again,

940
00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:47.679
we'll use the work situation because that's a place where

941
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:50.800
you probably should just keep it to yourself because that's

942
00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:51.480
where you get paid.

943
00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:54.840
Right, But we live again, we all live in this

944
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.119
the world. The state of capitalism exactly.

945
00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:01.400
Yeah, and but so so I might have been wise

946
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:04.360
enough to say ten years ago to keep my mouth shut,

947
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:06.719
but I would think about it for like a day,

948
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:09.800
and it would torture me the thoughts of all the

949
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:11.599
things I could have come back with and said to

950
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:14.719
that bastard, you know what I mean, I really showed him,

951
00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:17.679
and it would just ruminate over and over and over

952
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.119
in my head. But now I can let that go

953
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:24.119
even and that right there is remarkable or remarkable change.

954
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:29.440
Yeah, And I think I don't know. To the book,

955
00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:34.199
it's very much about what if. Again, there's lots of

956
00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:36.840
it's all the times it's right what if? And it's

957
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.679
like what if a good man lost his temper? Yeah,

958
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:42.880
what if a good man couldn't control it?

959
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:46.480
You put you know, you put Pastor David in a

960
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:49.480
pretty extreme situation, and I had in my notes I'm

961
00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:51.599
not too sure if I was Pastor David, if if

962
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:54.679
I would have stayed there or even went, because like

963
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:58.119
we're talking like Bible Belt America, right, yeah, it's Bible

964
00:54:58.119 --> 00:54:58.920
Belt America.

965
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.440
Yeah, And I think that's it is the I tried

966
00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:03.880
to extend out too. He grew up in a similar

967
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:07.639
place and he wants to be and he was lucky

968
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:11.480
and where he grew up he had a support system

969
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:13.960
which doesn't always exist. And I think he was like, well,

970
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.679
I want to create this for other people, and it's

971
00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:18.719
like in a lot of the times, these people are

972
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:21.800
you know. I knew when I went to church before

973
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:26.599
I went to the uber evangelical more Eli type church

974
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.159
as a as a young man, I went to a

975
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:30.920
church where he was very small and the pastor was

976
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:34.239
Pastor David type, who was a very good, good man,

977
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:37.800
like genuinely wanted to improve the lives and it was

978
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:42.119
a very poor community and he genuinely wanted to help people.

979
00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:44.920
And I think back to him where I like, I'm like,

980
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:48.639
and it's and he was. He did missionary work and

981
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:52.199
very poor places, like trying to help people bring food

982
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:55.519
and you know, help you know, serve people who would

983
00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:59.320
have you know, might die if that he didn't do it,

984
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:03.320
and certainly was not easy. It was very harrowing work

985
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:06.679
he did, from what I remember, And I'm like, you

986
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:12.199
would sometimes you accept that, you know, understanding that it's

987
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:15.199
going to be difficult. You know, there's some deception in

988
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:18.840
there too, and there's questions of him when he'll leave.

989
00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:21.320
There's I you know, there's a couple of moments where

990
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:24.880
people are like they the part of the part of

991
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.639
the revision's process was people are like, he would have

992
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:29.559
just left, there's no way he would stay. I'm like,

993
00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:31.719
well then I have to pressure. I put more pressure

994
00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:35.119
to stay. How can how can I twist right? How

995
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:37.119
can I twist him so that it would kill him

996
00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:39.800
more to leave than kill him to stay. I mean,

997
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:42.519
that's another question I bring up in my comes in

998
00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:45.119
my own mind, where you're like, I moved back to Florida,

999
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:49.239
and Florida is a very conservative state now, very different

1000
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:55.159
than when I grew up, and people leave, you know

1001
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:58.320
people I know, people in my friend's circle, they leave

1002
00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:02.039
because they don't want to be isn't in it? Which

1003
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:04.360
is a little bit of a privileged, privileged position. There's

1004
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:07.599
lots of people who can't leave. Yeah. Yeah, And I think,

1005
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:13.320
like there's the multiple characters in the book that's spoiling

1006
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:19.159
it face that like question of retreat, the question of no,

1007
00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:21.920
this is mine again. It's it comes back to identity,

1008
00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:25.760
like they have taken it on themselves that this is mine,

1009
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:29.480
this town is mine. I am it, like I can't

1010
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:33.599
leave it. That's retreat. That's and I to leave the

1011
00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:37.719
town to retreat would make them face the fact that

1012
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:40.800
they are not who they think they are. They are

1013
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:41.599
a different person.

1014
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:45.760
And that's going back to identity and the battle of identity,

1015
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:50.920
which is really interesting part of this book. Another interesting

1016
00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:52.880
part because it's like, for a second there you had

1017
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:54.639
me thinking that maybe you were a Christian.

1018
00:57:56.239 --> 00:58:00.079
I'm well, I I mean I was, And I like,

1019
00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:02.519
I write that I wrote this in a different book.

1020
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:06.239
I have a cat me eyeing at my door, so

1021
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:09.079
I'm sorry if I'm distracted. No, that's not no, No,

1022
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:15.119
he'll go away. Uh. I wrote it in it funnily

1023
00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:18.119
funny enough, A very one of my probably my funnest,

1024
00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:20.920
fun most fun book was Killer is Killer Acubask, and

1025
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:22.760
I wrote about it. I wrote this line in Killer

1026
00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:25.400
acu Mask But it always echoes back to me when

1027
00:58:25.400 --> 00:58:27.400
people ask me about this, and I'm like, I'm an atheist,

1028
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:30.400
but I still believe in things bigger than myself. I

1029
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:33.639
leave in forces stronger and bigger than me. And there's

1030
00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:35.920
a character in Killer Acue Mascot. He says literally that

1031
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:39.559
she's like the main character in Killer Achay mascot is

1032
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:41.679
he believes in God, and I tend to. My character

1033
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:44.719
is usually or like most of the time, believe in God,

1034
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:48.440
because I think most people believe in God, h and

1035
00:58:48.519 --> 00:58:51.519
to some level. You know, some are very religious. Some

1036
00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:53.760
people are just more agnostic where they're like, ah, yeah,

1037
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:56.480
there's probably got up there somewhere, who knows. I'm not

1038
00:58:56.480 --> 00:59:00.360
gonna worry about it. I gotta pay my bills. I

1039
00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:02.119
mean there's lots of people who are like that. Yeah,

1040
00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:05.079
like God exists, but also like I need to pay

1041
00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:07.159
my bills. That's why I need to. I need to

1042
00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:09.719
make sure my kids get fed tomorrow. Like I'm not worried.

1043
00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:14.599
I can't worry about God. Which I that those people

1044
00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:16.920
who are blessed and not have existential questions in their

1045
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:19.639
mind every every single day. Those are the lucky, the

1046
00:59:19.719 --> 00:59:20.480
luckiest people.

1047
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:22.880
But ignorance is blessed.

1048
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:28.159
Yeah, that they But there is I believe in things

1049
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:31.079
that like the weather, Like that's the example that happens

1050
00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:33.920
to kill a Rocky mascots. She's like, I believe in hurricanes,

1051
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.119
and a hurricane is gonna come and I have no

1052
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.280
say over where it goes. And like in Florida, that

1053
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:43.679
is ever present, especially now it's it's hurricane season right now.

1054
00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:46.559
It may come and wipe us out, or it may

1055
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:51.000
to swerve away, and I nothing I do changes that whatsoever.

1056
00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:53.960
I cannot affect the whims of a hurricane and is

1057
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:58.320
so big and uncontrollable. I just watch it happen. And

1058
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:02.360
I often think about that as when I write any

1059
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:05.159
character that believes in God or is even more devout,

1060
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:08.480
You know, it's more about than me. They all would be,

1061
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:13.800
but it's more about all I have existential questions about

1062
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.559
forces greater than me, and they're not too different than

1063
01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:21.760
does God exist or not? And I honestly want I

1064
01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:24.239
don't want that to show up in the book. I

1065
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:26.800
don't want a book that just lectures you and says, oh,

1066
01:00:26.840 --> 01:00:29.079
you shouldn't believe in God, or lecture you shouldnt say

1067
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:33.760
you should. I think again, I want you to examine

1068
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:38.079
your own beliefs and examine how they occur in the

1069
01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:41.519
book you did that, and think about it. I don't

1070
01:00:41.559 --> 01:00:43.400
like it's I don't want to make you don't have

1071
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:45.760
to make a decision because of me. But it's more

1072
01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:50.280
I want it to be a question, and i'd want

1073
01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:55.239
it to be about well, what do I worship? What

1074
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:58.159
do I believe? What am I a part of? Like

1075
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:02.119
what systems? Like again, it's like identity and systems. And

1076
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:05.360
it's like there's that David faces this crisis where he's like,

1077
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:08.639
I do I worship the same God as Eli? Like

1078
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:11.159
to a lot of people. They answer it would be yes,

1079
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:15.239
you're a member of the same church. Is it not

1080
01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:17.719
the same? Isn't don't you worship the same god? Well?

1081
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:21.480
And I would say, I me, I have my opinion.

1082
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:24.159
I would say, no, they don't. But what I believe

1083
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:26.880
is going to be different than any reader. Uh, and

1084
01:01:26.920 --> 01:01:29.760
I try not to. Like Again, people ask me sometimes

1085
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:31.880
about not just this book, any of my books. They're like,

1086
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:34.880
what is this? What happened? What does that mean? I'm like,

1087
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:37.760
I don't know. You tell me. I mean, I have

1088
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:40.320
my I have my my thoughts about it, but that

1089
01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:43.280
I didn't write it down in the book. I didn't.

1090
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:45.159
There's if there's no answer in the book, then I

1091
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:47.639
don't have an answer for you. It's not on the page.

1092
01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:52.360
It's up to you. And some people love that, some

1093
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:53.159
people don't.

1094
01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:57.480
Yeah, Well, you brought up an interesting point there about

1095
01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:02.360
making the reader sort of confront themselves in what they believe.

1096
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.960
Because I was doing that halfway through this book, I

1097
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:07.880
was like, could I go to church again? Do I

1098
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:10.239
want to go to church again? Do I believe in

1099
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.199
any of that? Because I'm an agnostic, I need scientific

1100
01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:17.400
proof for me to absolutely believe in something, even if

1101
01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:20.239
it's something my experience. I would prefer to have that

1102
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:24.199
backing to be honest. But I agree, yeah, but it

1103
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:27.920
still made me question. The answer came up, No, I'm like,

1104
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.639
I refound myself in a sense. It's like, no, I

1105
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:33.000
don't need church. I don't I don't have any of

1106
01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:35.599
those beliefs or anything. But for a while there it

1107
01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:39.679
was just like I was going through the self questioning period.

1108
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:43.480
Your book made me think in those terms as well.

1109
01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:48.159
I mean, it's it's a question of there's like church

1110
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:55.079
can a church? A religion can serve many needs. Not

1111
01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:57.119
to say that some of those needs can't be met

1112
01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:01.280
in other ways, but in some places, and certainly the

1113
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:06.519
place like Sacred which is the setting for the book,

1114
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:10.840
the church would be the only place you can fulfill

1115
01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:13.519
a lot of those needs. It means of a third place,

1116
01:03:13.800 --> 01:03:16.280
you know, of a place that is free to attend

1117
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:19.000
that can provide you community, the place you can be

1118
01:03:19.079 --> 01:03:22.360
where you can eat right. You don't have to for free.

1119
01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:25.119
You go to the church service, and you go to

1120
01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:27.320
the potluck, and you can eat for free, where you

1121
01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:30.280
can learn. Right theoretically, if you learn, if you listen

1122
01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:32.599
to a sermon, perhaps you can learn or try to

1123
01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:35.079
be a better person. It's like a self help class effectively,

1124
01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:38.519
like and I think ultimately a lot of the best pastors,

1125
01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:41.960
ones who like Pastor David do believe and do want

1126
01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:43.639
people to just be their best selves. It is not

1127
01:03:44.079 --> 01:03:50.360
necessarily imbuing their their sermons with ill intent. They're like, hey,

1128
01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:52.639
be a good person, don't lie to don't lie to people,

1129
01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:55.480
be your best self. You know, help people. When when

1130
01:03:55.480 --> 01:04:04.320
someone needs help, you help them. It's the church can

1131
01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:07.480
fulfill those needs. And like, I get all of those

1132
01:04:07.480 --> 01:04:09.400
needs met from my writing group. You know, I go

1133
01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:11.880
there every I go there once a week. I hang

1134
01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:16.519
out with like minded people. I get support for both

1135
01:04:16.599 --> 01:04:19.360
like my life and for things I'm working on. But

1136
01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:21.599
a place like Sacred like I grew up in a

1137
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:25.519
very very small town, a rural place in Florida, with nonehing,

1138
01:04:25.639 --> 01:04:27.880
and the church did fulfill all those needs. And so

1139
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:30.800
it's like and again, like just because I don't believe

1140
01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:34.920
in God does not change again, doesn't change that, It

1141
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:38.639
doesn't take that away. Like again, like I have known

1142
01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:42.280
like those die and the died in the world, hardcore atheists,

1143
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.400
and you're like the and they're the biggest assholes in

1144
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:47.519
the world. I'm like, you can't just because you don't

1145
01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:49.880
believe in God or don't like there's no proof of

1146
01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:56.880
him it whatever it is, you can't deny the role

1147
01:04:57.079 --> 01:05:01.840
that religion and a church can fulfill. And I'm like

1148
01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:06.360
I and ultimately like it's not not gonna be bad,

1149
01:05:06.639 --> 01:05:10.840
Like you can have places churches that are are universal goods.

1150
01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:15.039
Even I like it's like like it's probably gonna be

1151
01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:18.119
complicated and probably gonna be a mixed bag, like most things.

1152
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:19.239
In all the world are.

1153
01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:22.840
Nothing is universally good and nothing is universally bad. There's

1154
01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:25.119
always like this mixed bag for the most k for

1155
01:05:25.159 --> 01:05:30.519
the most part. And I think that's what like a

1156
01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:32.880
church in this place like this would be. And like again,

1157
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:35.920
it's me trying to find the truth. It's not I

1158
01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:41.119
don't want to And if if when I'm writing isn't true,

1159
01:05:41.280 --> 01:05:41.960
then I failed.

1160
01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:46.280
M HM, well, I think you succeeded.

1161
01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:49.679
Thank you. I love appreciate I do. I do appreciate that.

1162
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:52.159
I mean, I'm very proud of it. I love it.

1163
01:05:52.159 --> 01:05:54.519
It's people ask me. They asked me today, what's your

1164
01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:56.079
favorite book? You know? And they want to buy a book,

1165
01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:58.960
and I go, oh, it's my newest and mostly because

1166
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:03.360
I think I really I achieve like what I wanted

1167
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:05.760
out of it, Like I feel like I got my

1168
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:09.239
writing a place where I'm really happy with it. But

1169
01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:14.159
it's also not the most fun book to recommend. Even

1170
01:06:14.199 --> 01:06:16.760
though some people are like, oh, yeah, RELI trauma, Yeah

1171
01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:19.800
hurt me. I'm like, great, You're perfect. I love you, so.

1172
01:06:20.079 --> 01:06:23.719
Yeah, go for it, go wild before we go, I

1173
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:25.599
want to hit you up with it. We were talking

1174
01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:30.760
about Ticknack tick nat Han earlier, right, and there is

1175
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:34.840
something that he said that really struck me as fascinating idea.

1176
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:38.159
It was he said it to Oprah of all people,

1177
01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:40.159
because you know how he came over here and you'd

1178
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:42.159
like talk about stuff.

1179
01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:43.920
And she she went on a.

1180
01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:48.320
Period where she had like Buddhists on her show a lot. Anyways,

1181
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:52.000
Tik nat Han was one of them, and uh, and

1182
01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:55.639
she he said I don't remember exactly how it came up,

1183
01:06:56.119 --> 01:06:59.079
but she said, who is Jesus Christ? Like, who do

1184
01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:03.800
you think Jesus Christ is? And Tichna Han said, Jesus

1185
01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:06.800
Christ is the Buddha of the Western world.

1186
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:09.400
And I was like, oh, geez.

1187
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:11.800
Man, Like that made me because, like, like you, I

1188
01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:13.840
have a similar past to you. I went to church

1189
01:07:13.880 --> 01:07:15.599
a lot as a child. I read the Bible all

1190
01:07:15.639 --> 01:07:18.360
the time when I was a kid, and so I'm

1191
01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:21.719
pretty familiar, especially with the New Testament, and you know,

1192
01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:24.840
all those like teachings of Jesus Christ came back to

1193
01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:28.480
me and I was just like, you know, he could

1194
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:29.480
be onto something there.

1195
01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:36.239
Yeah, I mean it, at a certain point, it becomes

1196
01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:41.480
they become bigger than anything. Like it's not like this

1197
01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:46.920
is exclicit to Christ. It's it happens to pop culture figures.

1198
01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:50.559
It happens to you know, famous actors, it happens to like,

1199
01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:57.280
there's a video today by Jason Parkin, another author he does.

1200
01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:00.400
He is almost as well known for his tiktoks social

1201
01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.920
media presence than his books anymore. But he's like, who

1202
01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:07.360
is the last who's the most Like, is there like

1203
01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:11.920
a big famous character that has outgrown like has continued

1204
01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:15.159
on past there they're the movies they are from. And

1205
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:17.600
they were like, is there anyone has that happened since

1206
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:21.039
Jack Sparrow? And I'm like, I don't know, that's a

1207
01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:21.640
good question.

1208
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:22.079
Uh.

1209
01:08:22.359 --> 01:08:25.800
But like Christ is like when he's when he says

1210
01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:31.119
he's Buddha, Like it has the idea of Christ, the

1211
01:08:31.199 --> 01:08:33.560
idea of like, just like the idea of Buddha. Even

1212
01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:37.039
in the Western world, the idea of Buddha is too.

1213
01:08:37.640 --> 01:08:42.039
Like if you ask a random person, like, what was Christ?

1214
01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:46.359
Who is who is Christ? Who was Christ? Every single

1215
01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:49.199
person's the answer is going to be very different. It's

1216
01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:52.000
gonna be like again, it's gonna be depending who you ask.

1217
01:08:52.119 --> 01:08:55.439
I could be one of a million different answers, and

1218
01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:58.359
some of them are gonna have answers that have no

1219
01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:02.439
basis in reality, have no basis in a in a

1220
01:09:02.600 --> 01:09:05.439
in the Bible, or in any from any kind of

1221
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:09.600
sermon or church service. It's going to be outgrown from

1222
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:14.800
the source material, which is a one book. Uh. And

1223
01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:19.600
I think like and some of it like some and

1224
01:09:19.640 --> 01:09:22.680
like that's the thing where like there are if you

1225
01:09:22.760 --> 01:09:24.680
read the Bible, you read christ teachings, a lot of

1226
01:09:24.680 --> 01:09:28.479
it's like very simple advice that yeah, of course, help people,

1227
01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:32.279
feed people, don't look down on poor people, right, like

1228
01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:34.840
things like that, like very like night, just be good.

1229
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:37.199
Like a lot of like the vast majority of it

1230
01:09:37.239 --> 01:09:39.039
is just like just be a good person, you know,

1231
01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:42.319
don't feed people if you can, help people if you can,

1232
01:09:42.439 --> 01:09:47.199
don't don't hoard money, you know. Like it's very simple

1233
01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:50.640
stuff and like it's not radical, like it shouldn't be radical.

1234
01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:54.079
It's very like rational advice. And like a lot of

1235
01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:57.359
self help advice just comes to I feel like can

1236
01:09:57.399 --> 01:09:59.680
just spin out of like, hey, just be good, don't

1237
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:06.640
be don't be bad. But the idea of Christ, which

1238
01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:08.479
is again I think circles back around to the book

1239
01:10:08.479 --> 01:10:12.920
about what are you worshiping? Are you worshiping the same Christ?

1240
01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:16.199
Because everyone's version of Christ, if you ask them, would

1241
01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:18.279
be very different. And I think if you ask, if

1242
01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:19.960
you like it probably went to the Eastern world. I

1243
01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:21.720
don't know this for sure, but I assume that if

1244
01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:26.000
you ask them what is Buddha? Who is who was Buddha?

1245
01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:31.119
Their ideas would also be incredibly disparate and probably include

1246
01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:33.079
a lot of quotations that he never said.

1247
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:35.920
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that, because although I tend

1248
01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:40.079
to speak very kindly of Buddhism, there are bad Buddhists

1249
01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:44.119
out there who kill and and do all the bad things.

1250
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:48.439
I've heard of, like Buddhist warriors.

1251
01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:50.640
Who you know, I don't want to get into details,

1252
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:53.359
but there there are Buddhists who kill and like go

1253
01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:56.520
to war and fight. And there's one Buddhist leader who

1254
01:10:56.560 --> 01:11:01.199
said anyone who speaks ill of Buddhism, they in their country.

1255
01:11:01.239 --> 01:11:03.199
I forget where it is that they would kill them.

1256
01:11:03.640 --> 01:11:06.840
And it's like that, well, that that sounds just you.

1257
01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:09.840
Know's, and that the very idea is intrinsically kind of

1258
01:11:09.880 --> 01:11:13.199
anti Buddhism exactly. Yeah. And just like Christianity is like,

1259
01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:15.359
oh I should go kill people, I'm like, well, are

1260
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:20.159
we presuming that you have that? Just like if you

1261
01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:24.000
adhere to Christ's teachings, you know that the New Testament

1262
01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:30.439
is canonical, then he you know, you don't actually you

1263
01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:35.479
don't kill people. You be you're pacifist, you're not. You're

1264
01:11:35.479 --> 01:11:39.359
supposed to love people. And that's it. And you know

1265
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:42.319
the I did a lot of scholarship, by the way,

1266
01:11:42.319 --> 01:11:44.760
I just want to point that out. I did lots

1267
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:48.680
of Bible, so much Bible scholarship to write his book.

1268
01:11:48.760 --> 01:11:53.760
So I've read a lot of I read sermons. I like, again,

1269
01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:56.119
there's a lot of scripture in the book, and so

1270
01:11:56.199 --> 01:11:58.479
I read lots of scripture. I read me, I read

1271
01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:02.760
different papers about the Scripture and how different schools of

1272
01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:06.920
Christianity and different sex and denominations all interpret different little

1273
01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:10.840
chapters differently. So I did my schott. I did my work.

1274
01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:13.920
So I'm like, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's which makes

1275
01:12:13.960 --> 01:12:17.600
it even you know it again, is all so much

1276
01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:21.199
of this interpretation. Yeah, and then like how do you

1277
01:12:22.319 --> 01:12:25.680
parse who you are and what God you worship when

1278
01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:29.359
you have to spin it through? You know, it's like

1279
01:12:29.399 --> 01:12:33.960
purple monkey dishwasher. It's like it changes definition from day

1280
01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:36.439
to day. It's difficult, very difficult.

1281
01:12:37.800 --> 01:12:40.039
That was one thing I really enjoyed about the book too,

1282
01:12:40.199 --> 01:12:43.479
because I did have a question here, but I skipped

1283
01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:47.000
it because we kind of went over a lot of

1284
01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:51.000
it and then you just said that you you basically

1285
01:12:51.039 --> 01:12:56.520
became like a scholar, biblical scholar. But I had a

1286
01:12:56.600 --> 01:13:00.319
question about the research because what I really loved was

1287
01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:03.119
how a lot of the sermons that David talks or

1288
01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:09.520
speaks to his congregation. There they obviously, I mean, because

1289
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:12.720
he's a conscious, thinking being and he's he's forming these

1290
01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:15.960
sermons to what's going on in the story. But you

1291
01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:18.520
were able to find like Bible quotes and everything that

1292
01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:22.399
kind of follows along with what's going on, and it

1293
01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:23.760
was it was brilliant.

1294
01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:27.479
Honestly, I thank you. I mean, I I wrote sermons.

1295
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:31.880
That's effectively what I did. Yeah, It's like I'm like,

1296
01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:34.680
I'm writing it and like I'm about to write another

1297
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:37.399
book with a minister main character, so I'm gonna have

1298
01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:40.199
to do it again. Uh, these are going to be

1299
01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:43.119
very different sermons because it's a period piece and it's

1300
01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:46.640
going to be more of a deraged minister. Oh so,

1301
01:13:46.640 --> 01:13:49.079
so it's gonna it doesn't have to be it doesn't

1302
01:13:49.119 --> 01:13:53.720
have to necessarily be actually coherent, because I wanted his

1303
01:13:53.800 --> 01:13:59.960
sermons to be good sermons. And like, ultimately, my grandmother's brother,

1304
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:02.600
I don't know what, I guess that's my granduncle or

1305
01:14:02.720 --> 01:14:05.039
grand whatever, I don't know relative that makes makes I

1306
01:14:05.039 --> 01:14:07.039
never met the man. He passed before I was born,

1307
01:14:07.159 --> 01:14:11.920
but he was a Quaker pastor and my I remember

1308
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:14.920
distinctly my grandmother who was also an atheist, which is

1309
01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:21.600
a little it was for people of her generation very strange.

1310
01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:25.960
And she but she studied his sermons like and she was.

1311
01:14:26.039 --> 01:14:29.079
She loved, she loved reading. She read and she did

1312
01:14:29.239 --> 01:14:32.800
like she did. She read a voraciously, and you know,

1313
01:14:32.960 --> 01:14:37.079
it's partially why I am why I'm a writer. But

1314
01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:40.520
she studied, and she was an atheist, but she studied

1315
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:45.119
her brother's sermons, Quaker sermons. And I was always like,

1316
01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:48.199
it's always stuck in my head. I'm like, and my

1317
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:52.239
grandmother respected him so much, even though she herself did

1318
01:14:52.279 --> 01:14:54.279
not believe. And I was like, well, if I'm going

1319
01:14:54.319 --> 01:14:56.319
to do justice to this pastor character, I have to

1320
01:14:56.319 --> 01:15:00.800
write real sermons that used real scripture and and obviously

1321
01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:02.520
would speak. I don't know. There's a couple of people

1322
01:15:02.520 --> 01:15:05.079
who had better read for me. They're like, it feels

1323
01:15:05.079 --> 01:15:08.720
so so it feels weird that all the sermons are

1324
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:12.399
about what's happening. I'm like, have you been to church service?

1325
01:15:13.199 --> 01:15:16.039
That's what they do. If you're in a small church,

1326
01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:19.279
they write sermons about what's happening around them, and they

1327
01:15:19.279 --> 01:15:22.039
don't not every sermon is like just this pre program. No,

1328
01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:26.039
we're going to talk about constancy today. No, they're they

1329
01:15:26.039 --> 01:15:28.760
are writing sermons to apply to the world that is

1330
01:15:28.800 --> 01:15:31.399
facing the things, the challenges that are facing their parishoners.

1331
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:35.720
And so I'm like, well, you know, and luckily I

1332
01:15:35.760 --> 01:15:37.880
am luckily living in an era where you could just

1333
01:15:37.920 --> 01:15:41.520
search the Bible online and you could find Bible versus

1334
01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:48.239
and scripture and passages about about you know, gentile versus

1335
01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:52.159
the non gentile Christians. You know, of the problems who

1336
01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:56.039
faced in the New Testament. Like I consciously pulled only

1337
01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:58.720
from the New Testament for the most part, except for

1338
01:16:00.439 --> 01:16:04.439
h Psalms. I wanted to include the Psalms because of David. Uh,

1339
01:16:04.760 --> 01:16:11.520
But I consciously picked from oh peaceful and loving scripture

1340
01:16:11.960 --> 01:16:15.560
for David, and very you know, more antagonistic and war

1341
01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:19.119
like Old Testament scripture for Eli and the very few

1342
01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:23.279
bad sermons that you hear him give. Yeah. Yeah, but

1343
01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:27.479
it's the it's the the their their sermons effectively, like

1344
01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:29.840
it's like it's I mean, like I you know, I

1345
01:16:29.960 --> 01:16:31.960
went to church service. I know what a sermon sounds like,

1346
01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:36.239
and it ultimately like he is and pastors are like

1347
01:16:36.479 --> 01:16:40.439
are effectively scholars too, like they have to. So I

1348
01:16:40.600 --> 01:16:43.800
like characters like that in general, like any character, because

1349
01:16:43.840 --> 01:16:47.199
it lets me write more intelligently. There's a lot of

1350
01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:49.199
times where you write a character and they're like, with

1351
01:16:49.319 --> 01:16:53.560
that character know that word. Yeah, No, they're not that smart,

1352
01:16:53.560 --> 01:16:55.319
they're not where, they're not that like, they don't have

1353
01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:58.479
that diction. But like when you have a smart, like

1354
01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:02.479
well spoken character, it really lets you like, no, they

1355
01:17:02.520 --> 01:17:04.880
would know that, and they would do that research and

1356
01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:09.520
they would do the work and I don't know, the dude,

1357
01:17:09.640 --> 01:17:11.840
there's a lot of the other thing. I don't think

1358
01:17:11.840 --> 01:17:13.560
I've ever said this or whatever yet, but there's a

1359
01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:17.760
lot of Ned Flanders also, And there's a lot of

1360
01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:21.239
Ned Flanders and at least gold Golden Golden Years Simpsons

1361
01:17:21.279 --> 01:17:25.319
Ned Flanders, you know who was Ned is like a

1362
01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:29.520
good guy, yeah, and not always pleasant, but he's always

1363
01:17:29.640 --> 01:17:30.920
he tries to be a good guy.

1364
01:17:31.079 --> 01:17:34.720
And you know your Simpsons because you have a Simpsons podcast, right.

1365
01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:37.920
I do, I am, I am, I do I for now,

1366
01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.640
I am, and I finally am ending it. I've made

1367
01:17:40.640 --> 01:17:44.560
the decision, I am. We've after the season's over, We're done.

1368
01:17:44.680 --> 01:17:47.000
I just I've reached the end of my limit for it.

1369
01:17:47.000 --> 01:17:49.199
It's a lot of bad Simpsons I've watched lots of

1370
01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:53.279
I've watched way more bad Simpsons than great Simpsons. And

1371
01:17:53.840 --> 01:17:59.119
I also I and we talked about my career earlier,

1372
01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:01.039
and I was like, I part of it is like

1373
01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:04.560
I have a finite amount of time. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah,

1374
01:18:04.680 --> 01:18:07.279
so I need to try and push it all at

1375
01:18:07.600 --> 01:18:08.319
being an author.

1376
01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:11.600
I was talking about this for somebody else, like I

1377
01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:14.239
get these ideas all the time, and I'm like, oh,

1378
01:18:14.239 --> 01:18:16.359
I got to do a podcast about this or I

1379
01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:19.000
got to do write a book about this, right, But

1380
01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:21.479
it's like, no, we need to we need to stick

1381
01:18:21.520 --> 01:18:25.319
to just what we're doing right now because I guess

1382
01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:27.640
it's ADHD. I don't know, but I want to veer

1383
01:18:27.680 --> 01:18:29.319
off and to do all these things.

1384
01:18:29.960 --> 01:18:33.359
It's an executive function is important. You need to say

1385
01:18:33.359 --> 01:18:36.359
what's the most important thing I can be doing? You know,

1386
01:18:37.000 --> 01:18:41.279
like and certainly there's when you're not working chase. You

1387
01:18:41.319 --> 01:18:43.319
can chase your hobbies as much as you want right

1388
01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:46.359
with your free time. But when it starts cutting into

1389
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:50.640
like what are my big goals in life? What and

1390
01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:53.840
ultimately goals are you know, driven by what makes me

1391
01:18:53.920 --> 01:18:56.760
happy or what will make me happy? You have to

1392
01:18:56.880 --> 01:18:59.560
you know, focus in on that stuff. You're not alone.

1393
01:18:59.560 --> 01:19:02.399
I think we all have that, Like oh wow, I

1394
01:19:02.399 --> 01:19:05.199
mean I literally like the new idea that I'm working

1395
01:19:05.199 --> 01:19:09.439
on right now was Suppliant's ad another new idea that

1396
01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:11.199
I had just a month ago, and I'm like, no,

1397
01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:13.600
this new thing is I'm really excited about it. I'm

1398
01:19:13.640 --> 01:19:15.960
going to chase that instead. But I think this is

1399
01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:17.399
the thing that I'm going to be chasing for the

1400
01:19:17.399 --> 01:19:19.600
rest of the year. It's I'm really excited about it.

1401
01:19:19.680 --> 01:19:24.039
So that's always good when you can chase that dang right, exactly.

1402
01:19:24.359 --> 01:19:28.359
All right, So before we go, is there you said

1403
01:19:28.359 --> 01:19:31.119
you're not going to release anything else this year, but

1404
01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:33.640
do you have an idea of what you're going to

1405
01:19:33.680 --> 01:19:36.880
release next if you're able or willing to talk about it.

1406
01:19:37.159 --> 01:19:42.399
Sure, happily, I'm quaring with it right now. I've said

1407
01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:47.880
this I think multiple places, but gotten only rejections so far.

1408
01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:51.000
It could take a long time, so I'm probably just

1409
01:19:51.039 --> 01:19:52.800
going to give it the rest of the year and

1410
01:19:52.880 --> 01:19:56.880
see let agents eventually, like some of them take so

1411
01:19:57.000 --> 01:19:59.840
long that I can't I'm not waiting a year for

1412
01:19:59.880 --> 01:20:03.479
you to answer my email, man, but like I'll give

1413
01:20:03.520 --> 01:20:06.279
him three months. Sure, I get it. You're You've got

1414
01:20:06.319 --> 01:20:10.159
a million things. But I'm quarrying with it now. But

1415
01:20:10.439 --> 01:20:12.439
if and when, you know, if it gets picked up,

1416
01:20:12.520 --> 01:20:16.079
great hallelujah. I got an agent. It'll go on sub whatever.

1417
01:20:16.399 --> 01:20:19.000
But if not, I will publish up myself, probably early

1418
01:20:19.079 --> 01:20:21.960
next year at sometime, maybe March April sometime, and then

1419
01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:24.199
with a pre order campaign leaning up to it. It's

1420
01:20:24.239 --> 01:20:26.079
called the work. The title right now I think it

1421
01:20:26.119 --> 01:20:30.199
will be the title is The Blush, which is a

1422
01:20:31.880 --> 01:20:39.560
sapphic cosmic horror slash body horror story heavily inspired by

1423
01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:40.560
The Radium Girls.

1424
01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:47.600
Interesting where I'm already on board, dude, Yeah, I.

1425
01:20:47.520 --> 01:20:50.640
Mean I I'm really happy with it. I mean it's done,

1426
01:20:50.920 --> 01:20:54.239
it is ready. I mean I'd probably do a little

1427
01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:59.439
bit more tweaking, but very minor things, so it it's

1428
01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:02.399
good to go whatever. I just would need to get

1429
01:21:02.439 --> 01:21:04.840
you know, cover and design all the stuff, all that stuff.

1430
01:21:04.840 --> 01:21:09.119
But it is. It's period piece set in the twenties.

1431
01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:18.079
Factory worker protagonists. They their boss finds a eldridge substance

1432
01:21:18.199 --> 01:21:20.880
buried deep in the earth that he is selling as

1433
01:21:20.920 --> 01:21:23.199
a cure all and as far as you can tell,

1434
01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:26.720
it is it's it glows it's pink, and they start

1435
01:21:26.720 --> 01:21:29.680
calling it the blush because it makes your cheeks glow.

1436
01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:32.520
Nice and I'm sure it does something.

1437
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:36.199
Oh it's yeah, it's yeah. It's also heavily inspired by

1438
01:21:36.239 --> 01:21:38.800
like other stories of like obviously the Radium Girls are

1439
01:21:39.000 --> 01:21:42.079
relatively well known, were like people the girls who use

1440
01:21:42.199 --> 01:21:44.359
radium to paint washed dials and they all died from

1441
01:21:44.640 --> 01:21:48.359
radioactive from cancer and radiation poisoning. But there was other

1442
01:21:48.399 --> 01:21:51.920
stories of radioactive quackery where they use radium and like

1443
01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:55.840
potions and they sold like they sold like snake oil

1444
01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:59.800
basically serums to people and it killed killed them, obviously

1445
01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:03.319
killed them. They all died. But there's like again that

1446
01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:05.840
I was like, well, what if instead of that they

1447
01:22:05.880 --> 01:22:09.359
turned into monsters? What if they if it affected this

1448
01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:11.560
a change in them like it, and you know, and

1449
01:22:11.600 --> 01:22:15.319
there's some and our main character also has this ability

1450
01:22:15.359 --> 01:22:18.560
to shape the substance because she has experienced as a jeweler.

1451
01:22:19.239 --> 01:22:22.600
Her mother taught her how to make jewelry to shape gems,

1452
01:22:22.880 --> 01:22:26.000
and so she's creates jewelry using this substance and then

1453
01:22:26.079 --> 01:22:28.720
in the process of that spinet that she can commune

1454
01:22:29.640 --> 01:22:34.399
with some sort of source, some greater thing, some big,

1455
01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:38.119
powerful thing. But it's again, I love writing about capitalism.

1456
01:22:38.159 --> 01:22:40.239
It's about a lot. It's a lot about capitalism. It's

1457
01:22:40.239 --> 01:22:43.560
a lot about power, both power and capitalism. Now'll look

1458
01:22:43.560 --> 01:22:45.760
for that next year. If you call me, I believe me,

1459
01:22:45.800 --> 01:22:47.840
as soon as I know that I'll maybe be publishing it,

1460
01:22:48.960 --> 01:22:52.239
it'll be out there. I immediately will start shouting it

1461
01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:55.039
from the heavens. Hey go buy go pritor this, go

1462
01:22:55.079 --> 01:23:00.199
buy this, et cetera, et cetera. Beyond that, not sure

1463
01:23:00.279 --> 01:23:02.560
that's going to be like again, I'm kind of it's

1464
01:23:02.560 --> 01:23:04.880
gonna be this hybrid approach I've been going where I

1465
01:23:04.880 --> 01:23:07.319
think I'll query with something, if it doesn't get any

1466
01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:10.720
interest from an agent, then I'll go publish it myself.

1467
01:23:10.760 --> 01:23:13.560
So probably the thing i'll be querying next, or the

1468
01:23:14.119 --> 01:23:16.760
couple of things i'll be querying next, will be potential

1469
01:23:16.800 --> 01:23:18.800
of the things I'll be publishing myself in the latter

1470
01:23:18.800 --> 01:23:20.560
half of next year. But I think next year I'll

1471
01:23:20.600 --> 01:23:24.319
go back to again if nothing changes, two books again,

1472
01:23:24.399 --> 01:23:26.119
two books in the year. And I think that's a

1473
01:23:26.119 --> 01:23:28.880
good rhythm for me, you know, I or in the

1474
01:23:28.920 --> 01:23:31.199
early days, I did three books a year. I can't

1475
01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:34.640
support that anymore. Once you get a big back catalog

1476
01:23:35.560 --> 01:23:38.039
as a Seal publisher, you can't. You don't have you

1477
01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:41.640
have to spend a lot of time supporting the books

1478
01:23:41.680 --> 01:23:44.399
you already have out. So I think two two books

1479
01:23:44.399 --> 01:23:47.840
a year is a lot for most people, and I

1480
01:23:48.199 --> 01:23:49.640
think it's the right amount for me.

1481
01:23:50.239 --> 01:23:52.840
You also kind of slowed down as you get older, too, Like.

1482
01:23:52.800 --> 01:24:00.920
Naturally, I try and avoid that because I try and

1483
01:24:01.039 --> 01:24:04.359
ignore the fact that every year my body hurts a

1484
01:24:04.359 --> 01:24:06.920
little bit more. It takes a little bit longer to recover,

1485
01:24:08.159 --> 01:24:10.000
you know, from a show. I do a big convention

1486
01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:13.880
and then I'm like, oh man, I'm why does it take?

1487
01:24:13.920 --> 01:24:19.439
Why is a whole day wasted of me just like hurting? Yeah, Oh,

1488
01:24:19.439 --> 01:24:23.239
it's because I stood for thirty hours this weekend and

1489
01:24:23.960 --> 01:24:26.159
talked the entire time. It's spent a lot of and

1490
01:24:26.439 --> 01:24:29.319
hold books around like, books are heavy. They are. You

1491
01:24:29.319 --> 01:24:32.920
got seventeen, But I would I anyone out there. I

1492
01:24:32.920 --> 01:24:35.000
think you know this already, but I'm gonna let you know.

1493
01:24:35.119 --> 01:24:37.960
Books are heavy, Especially when you got a lot of

1494
01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:40.479
them and they're all yours. You start questioning all your

1495
01:24:40.479 --> 01:24:43.720
life decisions. You're like, they're like they're not like, oh,

1496
01:24:44.039 --> 01:24:46.159
it's not a book from some other author that I love.

1497
01:24:46.680 --> 01:24:49.560
They're my books. I have to go sell them, and

1498
01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:51.680
I'm like hauling them around, like, oh my god, these

1499
01:24:51.680 --> 01:24:54.119
books are so heavy. Yeah, and why is my back

1500
01:24:54.199 --> 01:24:58.840
hurt on Monday? Oh yeah I know? Yeah, yeah, I know.

1501
01:24:58.880 --> 01:25:01.520
I And then yet like, hey, self care matters. Self

1502
01:25:01.560 --> 01:25:04.920
care is important. So it is checking in with myself.

1503
01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:07.840
And like when we spent a lot of time talking

1504
01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:12.479
about like mindfulness and Buddhist principles and checking on your

1505
01:25:12.479 --> 01:25:15.760
physical being and if you're in pain and not taking

1506
01:25:15.760 --> 01:25:18.560
it too. I I I love pushing myself. Believe me,

1507
01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:20.800
I am. If you haven't. If it's not clear by

1508
01:25:20.920 --> 01:25:23.880
hearing you talk for an hour, yea, god, I'm a maniac.

1509
01:25:24.199 --> 01:25:27.159
So I have to again it's healthy to slow down

1510
01:25:27.199 --> 01:25:29.800
and to go Oh my back hurts. Let's take it

1511
01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:33.079
easy today, you know. Let's the physical work I can

1512
01:25:33.159 --> 01:25:34.479
I don't have to do that today. I can do

1513
01:25:35.479 --> 01:25:38.079
clerical things. I can do it. Just let it go

1514
01:25:38.199 --> 01:25:42.840
for now, Yeah, exactly, bow and things all right.

1515
01:25:42.880 --> 01:25:45.039
Well, I had a blast talking to you when you

1516
01:25:45.119 --> 01:25:46.000
release the blush.

1517
01:25:46.039 --> 01:25:48.199
I would love to have you on again and talk

1518
01:25:48.239 --> 01:25:48.880
about that book.

1519
01:25:49.000 --> 01:25:51.039
That that thing sounds like it's right up my alley.

1520
01:25:51.399 --> 01:25:52.920
And it's a Robbie Dorman book.

1521
01:25:53.039 --> 01:25:56.359
So it's a it's a it's a more it's definitely

1522
01:25:56.399 --> 01:25:59.239
a more fun book than Words of Price than Red.

1523
01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:03.920
It's like it's it's closer in line to uh like

1524
01:26:04.000 --> 01:26:07.399
the other my most of my ov most of my

1525
01:26:07.399 --> 01:26:07.840
my work.

1526
01:26:08.039 --> 01:26:10.640
Well, this is just your elevator pitch there had me

1527
01:26:10.720 --> 01:26:13.399
going jeep, oh fuck, yeah, let's I can't wait to

1528
01:26:13.439 --> 01:26:14.079
read this one.

1529
01:26:14.359 --> 01:26:18.640
Yeah, it's uh, it's good. I don't want to. I

1530
01:26:18.680 --> 01:26:21.000
mean I could. I could talk about it a lot.

1531
01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:22.640
I love it, but we'll wait.

1532
01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:23.840
I want to read it.

1533
01:26:24.399 --> 01:26:26.800
I'll let you know for sure. You'll be in the loop.

1534
01:26:27.199 --> 01:26:30.319
All right, awesome, Now before we go, where can we were?

1535
01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:33.079
We did talk about where people can find you, but

1536
01:26:33.279 --> 01:26:35.760
if you want to reiterate where people can.

1537
01:26:35.640 --> 01:26:39.720
Find you, I mean, it's my name, Robbie Dorman. Uh.

1538
01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:42.319
I have faith in you that you know the internet,

1539
01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:45.439
dear listener, dear watcher. You can google my name and

1540
01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:48.760
you'll be on Instagram. Yeah, I'll be on Amazon under

1541
01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:50.960
that name, on Barnes, Noble, wherever you buy books. You

1542
01:26:50.960 --> 01:26:54.279
can find my books there digitally. It's only on Amazon

1543
01:26:54.319 --> 01:26:57.159
and Kindle or kymindal unlimited. I have a new podcast,

1544
01:26:57.199 --> 01:27:00.600
Blood on the Typewriter For people who listen to this podcast,

1545
01:27:01.000 --> 01:27:02.600
I think at the right up your alley, it's me

1546
01:27:02.760 --> 01:27:07.319
interviewing other authors, uh, doing a little bit of a

1547
01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:12.920
heavily inspired by Mike Mike Birbiglia's podcast where he interviews comedians.

1548
01:27:13.399 --> 01:27:16.520
A lot of very very focused on craft, like a

1549
01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:19.199
lot of nuts and bolts and and and and greater

1550
01:27:19.239 --> 01:27:24.800
philosophical questions directly tied to writing into a career. Uh,

1551
01:27:24.840 --> 01:27:27.840
and you know how to get better? How to? You

1552
01:27:27.840 --> 01:27:31.560
know too? In many, many, many ways, and some of

1553
01:27:31.560 --> 01:27:33.760
its selfish on my part because I want to be better,

1554
01:27:33.840 --> 01:27:38.239
So I'll ask Alma Katsu how can I be better?

1555
01:27:38.840 --> 01:27:41.479
And honestly, she helps. She gave me really good answers

1556
01:27:42.720 --> 01:27:47.720
and ultimately, hopefully, ultimately I'll interview every single author that exists.

1557
01:27:48.640 --> 01:27:49.399
But now that that.

1558
01:27:49.439 --> 01:27:52.000
There, you're there, you go again, pushing yourself.

1559
01:27:51.960 --> 01:27:55.520
I know, but I mean it's you probably know this too,

1560
01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:58.840
But you ever want every thirsty author on the planet

1561
01:27:59.159 --> 01:28:01.399
to knock down your door? Hey, can I be on

1562
01:28:01.439 --> 01:28:03.640
your podcast? Just say that, just say I'm gonna start

1563
01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:07.680
a podcast interviewing authors. Immediately everyone's your best friend. Everyone

1564
01:28:08.600 --> 01:28:10.279
on your podcast. I'm like, I'll get you there, I'll

1565
01:28:10.279 --> 01:28:13.000
get it time. Just give me some time, I'll get everybody.

1566
01:28:13.399 --> 01:28:15.840
Well, I really enjoyed the podcast.

1567
01:28:16.960 --> 01:28:20.000
That that was the key of getting me on you again,

1568
01:28:20.479 --> 01:28:23.640
or getting you on the show again, because I I

1569
01:28:23.640 --> 01:28:26.439
forget how it was. I was introduced to your podcast,

1570
01:28:26.520 --> 01:28:29.439
but I didn't know you were doing that until a

1571
01:28:29.479 --> 01:28:30.279
little later on.

1572
01:28:30.439 --> 01:28:32.640
And then I think you just posted that was it?

1573
01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:35.479
You posted like some clips from one of your part

1574
01:28:35.520 --> 01:28:38.000
and I sent you a message saying how did you

1575
01:28:38.039 --> 01:28:42.159
get that? Like those clips? I was like, what service

1576
01:28:42.199 --> 01:28:43.760
do you use or do you do it yourself? And

1577
01:28:44.159 --> 01:28:46.039
you told me how you did it? And then so

1578
01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:47.880
I went and listened to your podcast. I'm like, this

1579
01:28:47.960 --> 01:28:50.560
is great. You know another thing of Robbie Dorman's that

1580
01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:53.319
I enjoy again.

1581
01:28:53.399 --> 01:28:59.439
It's like you bet you hammer at a door and

1582
01:28:59.479 --> 01:29:01.039
at the door as an open you go hammer out

1583
01:29:01.039 --> 01:29:04.800
a window and if that doesn't open, you keep you

1584
01:29:05.119 --> 01:29:07.600
go down to the cellar door, you go, you go

1585
01:29:07.720 --> 01:29:10.039
up you like try and break through the through the

1586
01:29:10.039 --> 01:29:13.000
attic window. Like again, it's me trying to be like

1587
01:29:13.119 --> 01:29:16.520
I want to be everywhere I want to be. I

1588
01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:20.479
want to be undeniable. So it's I'm I, you know,

1589
01:29:20.600 --> 01:29:22.840
split myself in fifty pieces if I have to.

1590
01:29:24.279 --> 01:29:26.000
I kind of know how you feel because I feel

1591
01:29:26.119 --> 01:29:28.640
the same way sometimes. Well, I want to thank you

1592
01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.039
for coming on the show and I can't wait to

1593
01:29:31.039 --> 01:29:32.960
talk to you again. You're You're an awesome guest.

1594
01:29:33.880 --> 01:29:35.880
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Love being on

1595
01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:36.239
the show.

1596
01:30:01.880 --> 01:31:07.840
Thing