June 17, 2025

056 - Pilgrims with M.R. Leonard

056 - Pilgrims with M.R. Leonard
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Season 2

This episode is different from the typical Weird Reads episodes. First, I welcome a science fiction author onto the show, M.R. Leonard. Second, M.R. Leonard is a practicing Catholic, and his book, Pilgrims, is a first-contact story about Catholic aliens. You read that correctly—Catholic aliens. This doesn't necessarily make Pilgrims Christian science fiction. Listen in to see why. Also check out Michael's book, Pilgrims as it is a fascinating look into religion.

We also discuss a great deal of history, specifically Roman history, and a bit of astrophysics. 

Check out M.R. Leonard online: https://www.mrleonardauthor.com/

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WEBVTT

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You're listening to the Weird Reader podcast, an extension of

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Jason's Weird Reads found on YouTube. Welcome, Hello, and welcome

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to episode fifty six of the Weird Reads podcast. This

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episode is a little bit different from the usual for

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a few reasons. The first reason being that we're talking

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about a science fiction book today with its science fiction

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author Mr Leonard and his book Pilgrims. But we're also

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going to be discussing Christianity, and that is where there

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is a controversy here, I think in regards to my podcast,

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the Weird Reads Podcast, because I m R Leonard says

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he's a Catholic, he identifies as a Catholic, where I

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identify more as agnostic. I'm pretty much pure agnostic. I

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need scientific backing for almost everything, and Emmer Leonard seems

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to be the same way. But when not really questioned

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but me leaning, the conversation towards him being able to

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admit whether or not he supports people like Donald Trump.

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He never admitted that or denied it. So take what

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you will from this conversation. What it comes down to, though,

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is his book Pilgrims. Pilgrims is I had an absolute

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blast reading this book. It really questions religion in the

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same ways that I do. It analyzes Christianity and how

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people tend to misuse Christianity to hurt other people instead

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of perhaps what it should be about, which is helping

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other people. It sort of defines the definition of war

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and its role in religion, and it's we have a

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pretty fascinating discussion that even excuse me, that even goes

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into the realms of astral astral physics, if you can

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believe it. So my gut during the process of booking

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m R Leonard on the show, my gut was kind

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of flipping out. I'm afraid of this episode, to be

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honest with you, at least a little bit, because it's

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so far out of the realm from Weird Reads that

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it almost has to be included in a weird weird Reads.

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Take what you will from this conversation. I think you'll

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find m R Leonard quite intelligent, and he seems to

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be fascinated with religion on an intellectual scale. I don't

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think he's a scholar of Christianity, but he seems to

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study it anyway, and so we had an interesting conversation,

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and so I hope you enjoy I hope you'll stick

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around and listen to it. It's, as I said, very

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different for this show. And here it is my conversation

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with m R Leonard and his book Pilgrims. Welcome everyone today,

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I have a very different episode. It's one I never

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thought I do. One reason for this is that our

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guest today is a break outside of the horror genre

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that we always talk about, and it ventures into science fiction.

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The second aspect is the Christian element in our guests book. Now,

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I'm all about growing though, and sometimes something about this

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book and the author himself pushed me to go along

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and do the episode. I felt compelled to explore the

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book or sorry, a science fiction book about Catholic aliens

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visiting Earth, along with its author. So what I found

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well reading Pilgrims was a fascinating examination of religion, its

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significance in human life, and how it can be misused

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for evil for lack of a better term. So joining

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me today is m R Leonard, author of Pilgrims. Welcome

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to the show. Michael.

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Thanks for having me. Jason, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Now. One thing before we get into I just want

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to do a little icebreaker here because before we were,

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before I hit the record button, we were talking about

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having young kids. And I remember when I had a

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young kid, when my son was a newborn, up to

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like even age of five or whatnot, I really struggled

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finding time to write. So how do you find you

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have two little ones? Right?

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Yeah, and actually another coming?

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Oh my god? How do you how do you find

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the time? And more importantly, how do you find the energy?

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The verb find implies that it's it has been happening,

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as opposed to an aspirational hope that it happens more.

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It's tough. I wrote this book mostly before my first

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son was born, so that helped. Getting in the rhythm

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now that I have kids is definitely a process, and

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I'm still kind of finding my feet there. So I

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don't have any good hacks. I know. Christopher Rocky ho

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blurbed the book. He says he gets up at four am.

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That's the time. That's the time of day you can

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find a big chunk of time to actually get it done.

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I haven't resorted to that, but I'm trying a lot

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of things at the moment. If you had asked me

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that three years ago, before my first was born, i'd

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have this really thoughtful Oh this is my routine, this

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is how I get it done. But that that's all

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followed by the wayside.

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Imagine it's chaos, but you get it when you can. Right.

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Yeah, I do have windows, it's it's just they they

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they go in spurts of being pretty regularized till something

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comes up. So if, for example, like between ten and

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two during the day ends up being like a really

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good window, that'll work for like a week until there's

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some sort of exingency or emergency that just up ends that.

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What I thought I was building a routine because you

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kind of like build the routine. You start it going

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and you're like, all right, this is this has some momentum,

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and then the momentum gets stopped suddenly. So yeah, no,

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I don't have any good answers or good solutions to

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that question. It's an ongoing challenge.

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Routine is very important. I find. I also find that

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do you have like a writing time? Because for me,

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I my brain turns the mush sometime around noon, and

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I if I go to write anytime afternoon, it's like

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pulling teeth. But anytime before noon, I'm good to go.

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How about you I'd say ten.

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To four, hand be is probably the best time for me.

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The problem with that is so much Again, if you

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just had a clean, uninterrupted ten to four, that would

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be the idea for me. I've tried morning, I've tried night.

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I thought like my twenty year old self imagining myself

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as a writer later in life, would have thought I'd

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be doing a lot of writing after seven pm. At

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by seven pm, it's not happening. Maybe it would have

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when I was in my twenties, but it's not now.

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Yeah. I know people who like, oh, I just love

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writing when everyone goes to bed and the house is quiet.

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It's like, okay, I get that. I get that house

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nice and quiet, it's peaceful, but I can't think. I

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can't focus on anything like writing at that time.

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It's same here. Yeah, the brain is just not ready

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to rev at that hour. So as much as I

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like the romantic vision, and I know authors who do

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this of like you know, burning the midnight oil and

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just getting pages and pages, if I can't do it.

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I've tried it, and it's just the output is so

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terrible that it's not even worth it.

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That's very true. So, as mentioned, this is a little

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bit outside the weird reads Birdcage, so to speak. As

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your book, Pilgrims is not horror. It's science fiction, and

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it's also science fiction with a strong Catholic bend to it. Personally,

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I'm not a Christian, but I found something interesting in

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our correspondence while we were trying to organize this. You

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mentioned that you like to talk with non Christians about Pilgrims.

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I'd say the vast majority of my readers are non religious,

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specifically non Christian. Because I wrote this book, I'd say

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I had multiple motivations, but primarily as a science fic

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someone who's just loved the genre and just felt like

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there were these massive holes or stories that weren't being

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told for I think, what are essentially arbitrary reasons. And

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I think going forward, you're going to you're going to

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feel more writers who feel less encumbered by the historical

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contingent ways of approaching stories. They'll be unbounded by. I

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think some of the conventions that have not plagued the

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genre but been a part of the genre for the

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last fifty seventy five years, and I think we can

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tell more interesting stories. And as a reader of science fiction,

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I just you know, they say, write the book that

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you wish you could read, and this was it for me.

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I just was wondering, like when you add the when

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you add religious components to a social situation and talk

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about it seriously and not dismissively, you can actually come

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up with some really, really interesting.

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Drama that keeps you to the page for sure. And

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once again, I want to apologize for my round of

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questioning you when when you first approached me in the

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planning stages here. I'm not against religion the religion itself,

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but I can be against they're organizers and leaders. So

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I needed to confirm in my roundabout way that you're not,

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like you know, a Trump supporter. So so many people,

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I feel are dragging what could be a beautiful religion

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through the mud with misinformation regarding Christianity and what Jesus

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actually stood for.

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Is there a question there?

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Now? That's the statement, and I just want to know

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if you want to if you want to say anything

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to that.

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Yeah, I mean, I think it's important for everyone to dialogue,

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dial logos. It's it's the approaching truth through the act

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of discussing with others. And I think there's a variety

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of different perspectives out there. I mean, I would describe

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myself as raised Catholic, and then I fell away from it,

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so I probably became a agnostic, if not a full

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blown atheist. And I'm what's often described as a revert.

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So in my mid thirties, I returned to Catholicism, and

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it was a very intellectual return. That's kind of what

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brought me back, not exclusively, but that was the sticking

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point for me. Actually, I was at MIT when I

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reverted to Catholicism, which is kind of a not what

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most people get to mit to do, but that happened

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to me, so, you know, I mean I would, I

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would subscribe to the views of the Catholic Church. I'm

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not in schism with any of them. But that doesn't

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mean that there isn't productive conversation that can be had

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with people who have also from ideas and backgrounds. I

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think this idea that like, if people think differently from you,

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you have to be you know, inimical and yelling at them,

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like I don't. I don't think that's how most people are,

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and I don't think that's that's consistent with Christianity actually,

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So you know, I like to talk to everyone, and

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like I said to you, anything's fair game, Jason, like,

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wherever you want to go with this, whatever. But I

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hope that I did want to convey to you in

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advance that I don't think you have to be Christian

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at all to enjoy Pilgrims, like the story. I mean,

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it's clearly coming from a point of view. I don't

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deny that a little, but I think I think there's

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something there for everyone.

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Yeah, and you know what, We're going to get into

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that a little bit. But that was the hardest part

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of this conversation. Now we're just going to go and

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gush about Pilgrim so at least in a minute.

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Yeah, I like how this is a this is very

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meta because this is a weird read for weird reads. Yeah,

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this is not within the wheelhouse of what you typically

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talk about, so this.

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Is very much so, Yeah, it is weird for weird reads. Yes.

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In our discussion, you also, well you just mentioned it

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too that you were raised Catholic and be an atheist

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and then converted back to Catholicism in your thirties. Can

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you tell us what involved that journey, because that's pretty

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I guess it's not severe, but it's it's kind of

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going for I'm an agnostic myself, so I understand where

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that comes from. But how do you go from being

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Catholic to maybe atheist leaning agnostic to back to going

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back to being a Catholic.

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I think, well, I'm trying to think of it succinctly,

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but here's here's the general gist of it. So I

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was raised in a family. You know, we went to

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church on Sunday. I had a great experience with that.

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I mean it was there was no particular traumatic. It

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was a nice, comfortable thing to do as a family.

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You know, you do that as a child, you become

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a teenager some people that's like thirteen is where a

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lot of people start, you know, bucking up against sort

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of things like I remember, like they just don't. It's

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sometimes it's as simple as you just don't want to

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go to church on Sunday. I want to in the

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house and what's cartoons or I don't know whatever you

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did back back at that time, And uh, that wasn't

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me so much as much as I probably would have

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I rolled every time we had to. You know, come on,

231
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let's go, let's go to church. And I continued going

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dutifully as a high schooler. Then I got to college.

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I actually went to a Catholic college here in Boston

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called Boston College, so like on the weekends, So this

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is the other exit ramp for all the kids who

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were raised Catholic for a typical one. You know, they

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went with their family. Now they're in college and no

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one's like they're pulling them to go on a Sunday,

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so they they just stopped. But I didn't because they

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kind of made a pretty convenient At Boston College. It

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was like a mass like every few hours on the weekend,

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so it was you know, you could really be that

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lazy college student who rolls out in sweatpants like and

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five minutes away, and I think that was kind of

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I was coasting at that point. But once I left

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college and neither of those those facts obtained, I basically

247
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just stopped going and then a lot came with it.

248
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So one of the things that bothered me, I think

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since I was young going through the motions up through college,

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was I always felt that religion, in particular Christianity was

251
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very intellectually shallow, like it was it was, and I've

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come to disagree with that now, but that's just kind

253
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of my attitude at the time. And I think that

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was very much the nineties early aughts kind of the

255
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religion wasn't, at least in Catholic circles or more particularly mine,

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It wasn't talked about in a sophisticated way. It was

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kind of like, this is a building where we all

258
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go be nice to one another. And you know, I

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think nice people would agree. You don't need to go

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to a building every week to be nice to other people.

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And I think if that's all the religion is, then

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it's really a waste of everyone's time. And I personally

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did not want to investigate it further because I felt

264
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discouraged from doing so. But I was also kind of

265
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I didn't know what I wanted. I was almost afraid

266
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of what I'd find out. So that's kind of in

267
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my twenties, I'm pretty much was no religion and leaned

268
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toward agnosticism and atheism. I kind of embraced that as

269
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this is what smart people seem to hold as their worldview,

270
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air go I should emulate them, either because I have

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pretensions of being smart or just because it's even if

272
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I'm not smart. That seems smarter to emulate smart people

273
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as opposed to not smart people. As I grew up, though,

274
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I saw a lot of kind of holes in that worldview,

275
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and I began doing some more digging, and this is

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I think this is just one of the many beautiful

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things about the Internet, Like you can actually seriously engage

278
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with some of these big questions a lot easier than

279
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you could in the nineteen nineties or early two thousands.

280
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And as I started kind of inquiring as to some

281
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of the questions, like the objectivity of moral facts or things,

282
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I had my own positions on this. I did take

283
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philosophy in college, so I wasn't completely new to this domain.

284
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But as I started looking into it more, I felt

285
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increasingly like, oh, okay, I don't think this is an

286
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unsophisticated worldview. In fact, I'm getting quite impressed with the

287
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sophisticated nature of it. And this was probably one of

288
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my chief roadblocks to becoming, you know, an adherent of

289
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any religion, let alone Catholicism. That combined with meeting my

290
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wife and just getting in a healthy, loving relationship well

291
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my girlfriend who became my wife, that opened a whole

292
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other set of doors about like what sort of person

293
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I want to be, what sort of aspects of myself

294
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I want to champion. So you kind of remove the

295
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roadblock and open open up love, which in the Catholic worldview,

296
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God is love. And so you know, these things combined,

297
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I think we're pretty pretty much the cause of my reversion.

298
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If I had to summarize it, that was that, okay, Jason,

299
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was that double click where you like, But that's more

300
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or less the high, high level.

301
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I was just curious about the journey I went through

302
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.920
when I was younger. I went through a religious phase

303
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I call it, and I joined a church and then

304
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pretty soon after I left it and then I never

305
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.920
went back. That's my story.

306
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When you were when you say young is all relative.

307
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I was eighteen nineteen. Around that age, I was just

308
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searching to see what was I was more like more

309
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than likely searching myself to see what was what I

310
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believed and testing myself. And when I went to church,

311
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I just didn't find anything there for me. So that's

312
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just my story.

313
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But it's different for everyone. Yeah, But I think what's

314
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really cool, like if in nineteen I was having this

315
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discussion on another actually with Jeff Hayes and one of

316
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.599
our our we actually put it on the line. But

317
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it felt like in the late nineties, like questioning things

318
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like did Jesus exist would have been like I suppose

319
00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:04.440
if I actually did it, I probably would have gotten

320
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a better answer, But it felt like that was a

321
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question you couldn't even ask. And the great thing about

322
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the Internet, in this kind of proliferation of content that's outside,

323
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is you can ask these questions, and to my surprise,

324
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I got much better answers than I expected. So that's

325
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.039
the cool thing about nowadays, like we can all explore

326
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so much intellectually, philosophically, religiously, spiritually. Then, I mean, you

327
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and I are old enough to remember when access to

328
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this much information was just so onerous and impossible.

329
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.759
Yeah. Actually, when I said that, I didn't find anything

330
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in the church that was for me. It was more

331
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just the building and maybe the people who went there.

332
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But I did find stuff because I read the Bible

333
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a lot during those days. I used to read like

334
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.640
fifteen minutes every night before I went to bed from

335
00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:01.799
the New Testament. But what I found in Christianity that

336
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I agree with was Jesus's teachings. It's basically teaching about,

337
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you know, helping those who are less fortunate than you

338
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and just being a good person basically is what it

339
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very basics of what it comes down to or what

340
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it comes down to, and I've always held on to

341
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that that aspect is very important to me. I think

342
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it's a good guide book and how we could treat

343
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one another. And that was part of the reason why

344
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I was grilling you when you first contacted me. I

345
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was like, oh, you're you're Christian, okay, And then I,

346
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you know, shut off some questions at you, and but yeah,

347
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what do you think what.

348
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Sort of things if I had said, would you said,

349
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all right, this is not Was there some impression that

350
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.160
or like type casting character when you get this email,

351
00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:49.720
are you kind of like it's one of these people?

352
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Well, it was like, first of all, it was the

353
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first time a Christian, like somebody blatantly Christian reached out

354
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to want to be on the show, like they're writing

355
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about Christianity and they want to be on the show.

356
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:03.759
And so I didn't know how to react to that

357
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because there's so many people who, as I mentioned before,

358
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who are treating Christianity as though it's their own way

359
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:18.400
of maybe controlling others, you know what I mean, instead

360
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of just spreading kindness and love. And so I just

361
00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.559
wanted to make sure that you were on the side

362
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of humanity and believing in kindness and taking care of

363
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:35.559
one another no matter who they are, and that's what's

364
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:38.920
important to me. So if you came across as somewhat hateful,

365
00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:42.839
I wouldn't have scheduled the interview. I'm totally open to

366
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:49.279
discussing religion, but I'm not interested in a discord of hatred,

367
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if that makes any sense.

368
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:59.279
Yeah, and I think Christianity in particular, it's definitely unfortunately

369
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:02.680
I'm not earned might not be the right verb, but

370
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.240
there is no doubt that people have used religion as

371
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.880
a mechanism of just social control and not like not

372
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as incidental to like, if you're engaging in you in

373
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building a world consistent with the values inside uh inside

374
00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:22.720
Christianity or the Bible, that you will end up making

375
00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:27.279
some rules that have social consequences. Like That's that's one aspect,

376
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.839
but that there is undoubtedly naked coercion and social control

377
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.400
across the history of Christianity, people using it as an instrument,

378
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.400
which is obviously completely at odds with with the religion itself,

379
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:42.799
but it's happened, and this is that's the world we

380
00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.079
actually inhabit, and so I can I can totally understand.

381
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.119
Uh you know, I think that's where in an interesting

382
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:52.480
time where Christianity has kind of receded a little in

383
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.000
the Western world, or at least it has in terms

384
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:59.960
of its ability to enact social control. So it's it's interesting,

385
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:02.200
you know. I mean that that might be debated. We

386
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.319
could quibble with it. Some people, you know, say we're

387
00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:10.319
a post religious society. But the reality is the genuine

388
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.839
Christians you meet are not are not excited about using

389
00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:16.039
it in that sense. But that doesn't mean every Christian

390
00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:17.039
is a genuine Christian.

391
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.160
So yeah, you know, that's very true. It's not only

392
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.079
Christianity where that people use. It's it's almost every religion

393
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.799
that's what's out there, including the most peaceful ones you

394
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:32.759
can imagine. Well, Christianity, like I said, if you read

395
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:36.119
the New Testament, Christianity should be the most one of

396
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:41.240
the most peaceful religions out there, right, But so I'm

397
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.200
kind of saying that there's other ones that are more

398
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.440
peaceful than Christianity, when that's not necessarily true, but I

399
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:52.319
think there is a general uh you know, uh outlook

400
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:57.400
on Christianity from people who aren't Christian as people being

401
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.079
not very nice as Christians, except for the fact that

402
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.359
a lot of us know Christians who are like, they'll

403
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:03.559
give you the shirt off their back.

404
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.640
And that was how it spread initially. I mean, in

405
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.480
ancient Rome, there's this religion that has all sorts of

406
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:16.480
social costs associated with it. It's completely absurd for most

407
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.279
people to even comprehend You're saying, you worship a guy

408
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.359
who was killed like a slave, like really, like that's

409
00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.799
like the worst example of what I could even conceptualize

410
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:28.640
as a god. But what was really compelling was just

411
00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:30.839
the way Christians act in a pagan world, and it

412
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.640
really got people's attention. Tom Holland really just discusses this

413
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.079
in a he's a great classicist, but he wrote a

414
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:42.000
book called Dominion, and it's essentially how Christianity took over

415
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:44.440
the Roman Empire and impacts many of the things that

416
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.240
we think of in the world today, which is great.

417
00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:50.440
So I'm gonna plug someone else's book, Tom Holland's Dominion.

418
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.599
I'm very popular. Yeah, he's a he's actually a co

419
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.720
host of a famous podcast called The Rest is History.

420
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.079
So he's a very popularly a lot of smart people

421
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.200
like to cite him, but it's it's a pretty landmark book.

422
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.960
Not to plug it too much, but like, for example,

423
00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:12.519
he essentially goes in, why in Western society do we

424
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:17.039
hold values that historically speaking and outside the West are

425
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:20.680
kind of not that common. For example, even like the

426
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:24.359
concept that racism is bad, the Romans would not have

427
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.319
thought racism is bad. They would like, they wouldn't even

428
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.160
know what you were talking about. Of course, you know,

429
00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:32.920
a Roman is superior to everyone else than they encounter.

430
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.359
And so where do we like what happens? Because if

431
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.119
we're the descendants of ancient Rome, like what happened that

432
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.839
we can reach a point where such things He actually

433
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:47.519
starts the prologue talking about Harvey Weinstein would have like,

434
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:51.119
there's no way he could be canceled inside Roman society.

435
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.079
That would have been just the normal behavior of a

436
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.519
Roman aristocrat. So what happens in our society that we

437
00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:00.240
can do? Anyways, enough about Tom Holland, but I just

438
00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:02.519
thought it's really eye opening for people who are into

439
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.400
Western history, Like it's it's kind of an interesting perspective

440
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:05.839
on things.

441
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:10.839
Yeah, it's also interesting how we evolve in our thinking

442
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:16.480
as a populace, which has always been fascinating to me.

443
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:23.519
So I find it interesting though that you science and

444
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.599
religion don't often mix. In fact, they usually say if

445
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:33.599
you don't ever bring up politics, science, or religion in

446
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.200
any conversation, if you want to keep the conversation peaceful.

447
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.279
There's a saying around there that says that, right, But

448
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:46.240
you've mixed religion and science science fiction at least, but

449
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:50.559
you do use a lot of science in UH in Pilgrims.

450
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.160
So before we get into Pilgrims, I just want to know,

451
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:56.880
is UH is Catholic science fiction? What you feel like

452
00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.119
you're going to continue to write?

453
00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:04.119
Yeah, I think you know, we me and other sci

454
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.119
fi writers, some of whom are Catholics, some of whom aren't.

455
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.359
We love to have this debate about did I write

456
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.839
not just about my book, but did I write Catholic

457
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.599
sci fi? Or is this just science fiction? You know

458
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:17.319
a lot of people don't say that. You know, Lord

459
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:20.039
of the Rings is Catholic fantasy, even though it is.

460
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.920
Jarr Tolkien was like a militant Catholic and the whole

461
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:27.759
work is deeply Catholic in every part of it. In fact,

462
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.279
he even wrote one of his letters he thought that

463
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:31.200
this is such a Catholic work, I don't think there'll

464
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.000
be any readership for it. It's going to be very

465
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.160
Niche Well, that didn't turn out that well, that prediction

466
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:43.079
at least so interesting. Yeah, that modifier is is something

467
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.200
that I kind of chafe against, even though like I'm

468
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.440
okay being called it, and just I think this is

469
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.480
science fiction. What science fiction has gotten wrong for a

470
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.319
while is there has been and honestly it comes from

471
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.000
the nineteenth century, this idea that science is at odds

472
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.640
with religion, and one talks about, you know, the natural world,

473
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:07.160
and one talks about the supernatural. They're definitionally different. They're

474
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:12.440
not really like science can't disprove metaphysical claims, all that

475
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:13.799
sort of stuff. And I think a lot of the

476
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:17.559
scientists now are opening up to the idea that the

477
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.680
project of science is in no way contrary to religious

478
00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:24.960
world views, in the Christian one in particular. In fact,

479
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.160
there's kind of a lot more overlap. A lot of

480
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.960
physicists are converting to Christianity. It's a whole other saga

481
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.640
that other people have discussed more, but this is what

482
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.279
I grew up in the twentieth century. You're either you know,

483
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:40.240
Rick and science, you know, with the capital, or not

484
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:43.160
even a capitalist. Just Rick, like from Rick and Morty,

485
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:46.519
is just like science, even though he's basically a sorcerer

486
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.599
and there's no meaning deeper in the world. And you

487
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.000
either believe in science and like star Trek, or you're

488
00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:57.759
one of those backwards religious people who believes in you know,

489
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.319
magic wands and fairy tales. And I just think that

490
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.440
dichotomy was probably wearing thin at the end of the

491
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.920
twentieth century. But as we round our way a quarter

492
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.599
the way through the twenty first, like that just doesn't

493
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:14.480
hold water. And so what I was really hoping to

494
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.599
do with my book was listen, religion has had a

495
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.960
huge impact on societies. In science fiction, what we do

496
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:27.079
is we imagine a possible world. We imagine a possible world,

497
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:29.920
and we try to make it somewhat relatable so that

498
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.799
our imaginings could be followed by the reader. They can

499
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.759
look at the premises we took and see how we

500
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.680
arrive at the world that we build. And I just so,

501
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:43.839
in other words, you're being graded at how well you

502
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.680
create the premises you use to create this other world.

503
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.799
I'll give you a bold prediction. All science fiction ausms

504
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:55.359
are closeted or you know, amateur futurists in the year

505
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.920
four thousand AD, so another two thousand years heads or ce.

506
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:04.200
If you really insist on that, religion will still be

507
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:06.759
there as long as humans exist. In fact, I would

508
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:10.240
say the three Abrahamic religions will still be in existence.

509
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.880
Judaism is been around for what like five thousand years,

510
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.359
let's call it. That's a lot of Lendy effect to

511
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.880
use that term. I mean, the odds are that we

512
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:24.079
will be here for another five thousand as long as

513
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:27.839
humanities still existing. Weirdly, you could read a lot of

514
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:30.680
science fiction and not realize that. I mean, that is

515
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.680
just basic futurism, just like you can say that as

516
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.880
a purely clinical, non invested party. And so the way

517
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.039
it was kind of written out of the stories I

518
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.799
felt was anti scientific. It was like it was almost

519
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.119
like this arbitrary like putting the thumbs on the scale

520
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:50.279
of experiment because you demand a certain result, meaning we're

521
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:53.000
going to write futures, there's no religion in them. Well,

522
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:54.559
I mean, that doesn't mean we don't have to agree

523
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:56.559
with the religion, but it'll probably be there. Well, you

524
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.240
can write cargo cult, superficial religion, or no religion at all.

525
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.039
We just want science and technology, and that's not an

526
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:06.200
interesting depiction of the human condition. So yeah, I do

527
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:09.799
marry these all together. Will I continue to write catholic

528
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:13.160
a science fiction, I, as a writer will not be

529
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.240
bound by these artificial barriers that say you can't address

530
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:23.279
metaphysical things inside science related, high concept premise speculative fiction.

531
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.079
I think that that is handicapped too many writers for

532
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.640
too long, and there's too many interesting stories to tell

533
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:33.279
with that in mind. So yeah, we'll keep it going.

534
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:39.160
Well, I have this theory that we don't know everything yet,

535
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:44.799
like we have the great void, the great beyond, We're

536
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.720
only here for a short time. We don't know exactly

537
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.680
scientifically what happens to us when we die, and until

538
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:58.319
we do have scientific proof of what happens, there's always

539
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:02.599
going to be spirituality. I think, yeah.

540
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:06.640
I mean, there's there's a whole mountain of unanswered questions,

541
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:09.720
and I don't think science in principle can answer. Like,

542
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:11.359
for example, a lot of people like to talk about

543
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:15.720
the multiverse, right, and so you know, again I reverted

544
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:18.319
at MIT. I mean I met some of these people

545
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:21.799
who were who were at the boundaries of scientific knowledge.

546
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:27.599
That was really cool actually, And there's no experiment you

547
00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:33.039
can run to really prove the multiverse. It's what is

548
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.880
appropriately called a metaphysical speculation. So whether you believe we're

549
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.640
up here, because there's at the origin of things before

550
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.359
we can touch it. In the natural world, there's this

551
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.559
process that generates universe. We're not going to examine what

552
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.400
that process is because we might have just pushed the

553
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:51.400
god question back, or you think there's a creator of

554
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:54.640
the universe. Those are both metaphysical speculations. And I think

555
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:59.440
one of the metaphysical speculations is what is mind? If

556
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:03.319
is it material? If it's not. Frankly, I think that

557
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.519
it's looking like it's not based on the science what

558
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:10.279
happens to it, because we know matter changes and although

559
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:13.119
matter and energy don't actually get destroyed, they just convert

560
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.400
to one another. But with regard to mind, if it's

561
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:19.279
not a material thing, we don't know how it comes

562
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.799
into existence or whether it goes out of existence. So

563
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:23.920
I just don't think science is ever going to give

564
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:25.880
us an answer to that question. I think there's a

565
00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:28.559
lot of questions science won't give us an answer to. Maybe, yes,

566
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.240
religion will continue to be around as long as these

567
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.039
big questions remain unanswered. I think you're one hundred percent right.

568
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:36.839
I say, maybe if we're still around as our human

569
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:40.440
race or as a race, as a creature a million

570
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:45.200
years from now, maybe it'll be answered. But we're nowhere

571
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:49.720
near it now. Nobody's even really asking the right questions scientifically,

572
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:53.839
of course, So that's always something that's fascinated me. And

573
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:57.400
I like that you brought up the multiverse theory, or

574
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:03.000
at least the metaphysical I think I'm using the writer there.

575
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:08.199
It's a very physics thing, right, of a different universes popping,

576
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.920
Like I could get up and go to the bathroom,

577
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:15.239
or I could stay here in one universe. I said, Okay,

578
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:16.920
I got to put this on pause because I have

579
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:18.679
to go to the bathroom. And I go to the bathroom,

580
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.519
but in reality and this reality we stay here talking. Right,

581
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:26.239
that's sort of split. There is no proof that that

582
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:31.000
can happen, And yet they say the math fits. I

583
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.480
never understood that kind of thing, but well, that mean.

584
00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:37.880
You could just imagine. Listen, I'm gonna be put on

585
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.079
my anti religious cynical hat. You know. You know the

586
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.960
priests saying there's this place called heaven. You know, I'm

587
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.559
just some peasant farmer. I don't really read all that well.

588
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:50.320
And the priest can read. He gets that book. He

589
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.159
speaks Latin. You know, I'm just a humble guy farm

590
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:55.440
in my fields and I don't read all these books,

591
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:57.000
and he says this is going to happen, so I'll

592
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.280
just kind of go with it. The math doesn't really

593
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:03.639
show that. I mean, it's essentially people fill in the blanks.

594
00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:08.199
You know. The math is causally affect is what the

595
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:12.719
technical philosophical turn means. Meaning you can do numbers all day.

596
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:15.440
You can take your bank account balance and multiply by

597
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:18.239
ten all you want, but you don't have ten times.

598
00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:21.119
You know, you don't increase your wealth light order of

599
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.920
magnitude every time you do that. I mean, I wish

600
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.079
it was that easy, but it doesn't really work. So

601
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:29.519
sometimes things get the esthetic of science when they're really

602
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:33.800
like more comparable to philosophical speculation. I would put the

603
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:38.039
multiverse and these alternate realities into that camp. Is it

604
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:42.559
when we go past what the quantum field theory, and like,

605
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:45.480
we know that the quantum field theory applies, it's very

606
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:50.239
predictive in terms of what happens to matter in all

607
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.960
sorts of things when we go past it, So like

608
00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:56.599
if matters existing in states of probability, it doesn't and

609
00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.880
it only kind of comes down to actuality when it's

610
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.079
observed by an observer. What does that mean? And so

611
00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:06.800
that's where people posit things like in this other universe,

612
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.360
you're going to the bathroom at this time. Basically all

613
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.000
of the Marvel cinematic world at this point. And you know,

614
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:18.519
like our Hollywood has really run with this genre because

615
00:36:18.519 --> 00:36:20.880
it makes for some fun things, but it's not really science.

616
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:22.920
Like they get off the science train and get into

617
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:26.719
the just speculative train really easily. But because scientists do that,

618
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:30.199
sometimes we confuse the science part versus just their musings.

619
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:34.440
So yeah, I and that's one of the interesting things

620
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:36.599
about writing the book. You know, when you write a

621
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:40.360
first contact novel, an aliens show up, there's all these

622
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:45.400
expectations that you kind of import but don't necessarily follow

623
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:47.920
from the way the aliens are and I get to

624
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:50.360
play with that as an author and kind of subvert

625
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.320
some expectations and make some pleasant surprises for the readers.

626
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:55.320
So that was kind of the goal, I think, and

627
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:58.000
I think more more writers are going to start playing

628
00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:58.960
with those things.

629
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:00.960
I hope so, And that was the term I was

630
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:05.599
looking for, the philosophical quantum physics. But my brain turns

631
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:09.519
to mush after a certain time of day, and we're

632
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:15.519
there now? Where there now? So, speaking of Pilgrims and

633
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:20.079
aliens and first contact books, can you tell us what

634
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:21.199
Pilgrims is about.

635
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.639
Yeah, Pilgrims is about a washed up Latin teacher who

636
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:28.559
is thrust into the center of humanity's first contact when

637
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:32.199
aliens arrive, land at the Vatican and ask for an

638
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:34.960
audience with the Pope. So it's kind of flipping on

639
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:37.719
its head that classic trope where you know, the aliens

640
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.400
land on the White House lawn and say take me

641
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.320
to their leader. Instead, they land at the Vatican and

642
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:43.559
ask for the audience with the Pope, which no one

643
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.920
in this world is expecting. It's essentially set in a

644
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:50.400
near future, vague about the time, but more more or

645
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:54.760
less a world like ours. And before the novel starts,

646
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:58.159
it starts a few days before the Aliens actually arrive

647
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:02.440
on Earth, but humanity tected the Aliens coming five years prior,

648
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.599
and so they saw aliens are coming to Earth. They

649
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:08.880
tried to communicate with them, they didn't hear anything back.

650
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.920
So the world has just been on tenterhooks wondering if

651
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.159
this approaching alien ship is friend or foe. And when

652
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:19.400
it finally does get here, and this happens at about

653
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:21.119
the twenty five percent mark of the book, but it's

654
00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:23.840
on the back matter, so this isn't really a spoiler.

655
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.639
They basically pop the hatch and asked for an audience

656
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:30.440
with the Pope, which my protagonist and no one was expecting.

657
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:33.440
So that's kind of the setup for the novel. And

658
00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:35.519
we get to see what the world looks like as

659
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.239
Aliens are arriving, and then we get to see after

660
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:41.719
they make this announcement that you know, are they lying,

661
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:44.559
are they faking? Did they have some sort of agenda?

662
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:47.679
What do they want now that they're here in purporting

663
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:51.079
to be Catholic? Like, well, maybe everything will be perfect.

664
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:53.039
Maybe you can just end the novel like, yeah, there

665
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:56.320
you go, happily. Ever after the Aliens are Catholic. End

666
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:58.760
of the book. You know, as a writer, I didn't

667
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.559
take that direction. As you know, Yeah, every five percent

668
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.639
happens after that point, A lot of a lot of

669
00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:04.320
stuff happens.

670
00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.199
I was reading some of the reviews after reading this book,

671
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:10.440
and there are some people who reviewed it as though

672
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:14.440
that's what happened, purporting this book as like just simply

673
00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:18.480
Christian fiction. But it's so much more than just Christian

674
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:22.599
fiction because you're pummeling the reader with questions throughout the

675
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:26.679
entire You're asked to question what's going on every step

676
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:27.039
of the way.

677
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.719
Yeah, and I think I think that's how I wanted

678
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:33.920
to write it because I well, the main character Austin.

679
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.639
All all authors get asked, are you just Austin? The

680
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.320
main character, And when we meet him in the beginning

681
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.119
of the book, he's kind of he's got some Uh,

682
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:45.800
he's got some he's got some issuing up, he got

683
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:48.239
some issues. That's a good way to put it. But

684
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:51.320
you know, honestly, there's not I'm not better than that.

685
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:54.719
I I don't know. So just to give some you know,

686
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:58.639
more setup that's revealed very early in the book, he's,

687
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:01.840
you know, just a guy pursued doing Latin education. Uh,

688
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.400
I think he wants to be a professor in Latin,

689
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:09.199
and then the aliens are show up, and if whatever

690
00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:12.960
amount we need people who speak Latin and know Latin

691
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.960
very well in today's world, multiply by you know, or

692
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.039
you know, I was gonna say, multiplied by whatever percentile

693
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.280
you think that will be worth after you know, if

694
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:24.800
that's worth x, like is it worth point one x?

695
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:27.639
Point zero one x point zero zero one x. The

696
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:31.159
point is, I don't know how lucrative learning Latin is

697
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.599
as a career path today, but it's a lot less

698
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:36.519
lucrative when aliens are going to arrive in five years.

699
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:39.119
And so he's in a pretty terrible state when we

700
00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:42.320
start the novel and he he thinks the world's going

701
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:42.719
to end.

702
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.199
You know, no one knows what the aliens.

703
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.159
Are going to do. Some people are not you know

704
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:50.000
a lot of people like that about the beginning part,

705
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:54.000
because I'm really tempted to just get straight to the aliens,

706
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:56.159
but I kind of wanted to set up you have

707
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.320
to set up a lot of these things, and a

708
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.880
lot of people like this kind of distoe I wrote

709
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:06.400
because it's not mad Max, but it's not like don't

710
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.800
look up because and don't look up like everyone's worried,

711
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:11.440
but like the power works and everything's like it's like

712
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:15.639
normal life with a lot of angsts, but so no,

713
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:18.639
it's like somewhere in between. Like some people, as you

714
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.239
can imagine, we're panicked for a little bit, they kind

715
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:24.320
of were tired of being panicked and just decide to

716
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.679
be diluted and go on with life. Some people are excited,

717
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:28.360
they think this is going to be good. Some people

718
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.119
are certain that this is the end of the world,

719
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.599
and society's filled with people of all these different perspectives.

720
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:36.800
My protagonist happens to be in the end is nigh camp,

721
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:39.320
but not everyone is, which is why the lights are on,

722
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:42.400
why there's food to be eaten, and why there's some

723
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.159
social order, although that's heavily imposed by the state at

724
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:46.559
that point.

725
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:49.679
And he also decides to kind of get drunk and

726
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:54.320
stay drunk, and he steals a lot of money from

727
00:41:54.360 --> 00:42:01.960
his mom, and yeah, after there's a lot going on

728
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:03.000
with you know.

729
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:07.960
My developmental editor was also Canadian, and we had a

730
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.119
few debates about that because he's like, you know, he

731
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:15.480
was just there for a robbery when someone got killed.

732
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:18.400
That doesn't make him a murder. I'm like, well, in America,

733
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.199
in the state I live in, and I think all

734
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:24.840
fifty states, it's called felony murder. If in the process

735
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:28.760
of committing a felony, a murder happens, everyone involved is guilty.

736
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:33.280
So you know, like the three bank robbers, the legal

737
00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:35.000
I don't know if this applies in Canada, but here,

738
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:37.559
you know, you only planned on pointing a gun at

739
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.039
the teller at the bank, you and your two campadres.

740
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:43.159
But you know guy three is an extra crazy and

741
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.519
he shoots the teller and you run out there. You

742
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.679
can't say, well, I only meant to rob the bank.

743
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.559
I'm not going to kill anyone in my state. And

744
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:54.280
I think across most of the United States everyone is guilty.

745
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:59.480
So yeah, yeah, So he he might have been inverted,

746
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:01.639
but he himself in a position when something like that

747
00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:04.199
could happen, So he's still quite culpable for that, for

748
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:06.719
that outcome. And this is all in the first few chapters,

749
00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:10.519
so we kind of see that this this Austin fella.

750
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:14.440
He's uh, he's not the best character. But I would

751
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.079
also say I don't think, I don't think I'm above

752
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.880
any of that. I never wrote him with judgment. I mean,

753
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:21.800
if I thought the world was going to end and

754
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.239
I had, you know, the world view that Austin holds,

755
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.199
I probably would try to drink myself, you know, silly

756
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:30.320
in a cave, and maybe I would be like, what,

757
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:33.880
who cares if you knock over a store? I mean,

758
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.079
they're not going to need the money after the world's ending,

759
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:38.239
So what's so wrong about that?

760
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:42.840
Sort of Yeah, But Austin has an interesting arc to

761
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:46.480
his story too. He starts off in a very confused,

762
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:51.360
painful place because he just think everything's going to end right,

763
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.559
and he does these terrible things, but he goes through

764
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:59.360
an arc of redemption. He has a very redemptive arc

765
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:04.199
to his story, and that's something I really enjoyed about

766
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:07.360
it because there's a lot of people out there and

767
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:09.280
I don't know if you had this conversation with your

768
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:12.239
editor whether or not people were gonna like Austin or not,

769
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:14.880
because we.

770
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:16.840
Definitely had that conversation. Yeah, I'm sure he did.

771
00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:20.320
Because he's unlikable at first, it's hard to get you

772
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:25.360
on his side, but but you do end up on

773
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:27.280
his side. And that's there's a lot of people who

774
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:31.840
say that they don't like unlikable characters. But I always say,

775
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.760
if they're interesting, then that's what keeps me going. And

776
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:38.440
Austin is certainly a character because he has a lot

777
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.679
of reasons why he's doing the things he's doing. He's

778
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:45.880
he's uh, he's interesting, and and he pulls you into

779
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:47.719
the story regardless of what he's doing.

780
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:53.000
Yeah. So I have two thoughts. One, I'll put a

781
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.079
pin in the Redemption arc thing because I think that

782
00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:59.119
that I kind of telegraph on the back matter so

783
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:02.000
I can describe that. But with regard to likability, it's

784
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.559
it's really interesting as a writer, and I this is

785
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:07.360
my debut novel, so I kind of learned a lot

786
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.199
of the As someone who consumed a lot of science

787
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:13.960
fiction and you know, film and television. I probably knew

788
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.239
this stuff intuitively, but until you kind of learn it

789
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.360
and someone points it out, you're like, oh, that's why.

790
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:20.519
There's a lot of ways we can build likability with

791
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:24.800
the character, and it's not always they're great actions. There's

792
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:28.519
a famous book called Save the Cat. It's actually about screenwriting,

793
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:32.119
but it applies for like all writing, and it's like,

794
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:35.199
have your protagonists save a cat in the very beginning,

795
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:39.000
so that the audience will will like them. And you'll

796
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:41.480
see this in so many movies. It's even sometimes just

797
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:45.079
gratuitously added. Like there's a children's movie called Malana, and

798
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:48.599
very early on there's like a turtle that can't make

799
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:50.760
it to the water while she's singing one of her songs,

800
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:53.199
and she goes and she helps that turtle get into

801
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:55.599
the ocean. So it's not there's not even dialogue, but

802
00:45:55.719 --> 00:45:58.039
like the Disney writers are like, make sure that save

803
00:45:58.119 --> 00:45:59.920
the Cat beat is in there. We have to have that,

804
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:02.920
and so that's one way to do it, but the

805
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:06.360
other there's there's there's other methods, one of which is

806
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:10.119
put your make us sympathize with the character, so they

807
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:13.280
can be put in a terrible situation where you kind

808
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:16.280
of feel like you yourself would be trapped. And that's

809
00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:19.039
kind of the direction I go with Austin. Another category

810
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.719
is called competence. Like we love seeing competence. So even

811
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.719
like a serial killer like Dexter, we're sitting there watcher

812
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.559
and kill someone, but he's doing it so competently. Like

813
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:31.599
some people call that competence porn or whatnot. Some people

814
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.400
just love that and all audiences respond to it. Some

815
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.280
people seek it out like they just want an unlimited supply.

816
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.320
But we can get characters. That's how you can get

817
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.679
some really mean characters, think like mob movies or like

818
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:47.320
hit Map, and they they're just so good at what

819
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:49.559
they do you just can't stop looking at it. So

820
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:53.360
I want the sympathy route, because as bad as Austin is,

821
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:56.840
he's in pretty tough straits, like he's got a lot

822
00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:59.960
of kind of crap thrown his way. And there is one.

823
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:04.119
It's at chapter seven when he has a choice to

824
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:08.639
basically stay with his mother or go see a prostitute

825
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:10.960
that he's been like that that's been driving the plot

826
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:13.760
for the first seven chapters. And if I had made

827
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:16.199
him go see the prostitute as opposed to staying at

828
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:18.000
his mother for what he he believes to be the

829
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:19.800
end of the world, I think I just would have

830
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.360
lost all the readers. So that was the That was

831
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:25.559
the crux. But there was a lot of debate as

832
00:47:25.599 --> 00:47:28.320
if we had already lost them already before chapter seven.

833
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:31.519
So yeah, it was, but I'm glad to see that

834
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:34.679
a lot of readers have stuck around for it. I

835
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:36.760
can talk about the redemption arc if you want. We're

836
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:37.599
going to something else.

837
00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:39.920
Now you can talk about the Redemption arc if you want.

838
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:44.000
But yeah, so the book is a sci fi retelling

839
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:49.519
of Augustine's Confessions. Now Augustine, Saint Augustine was a saint

840
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:53.320
in around the year four hundred AD, so you know,

841
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:55.880
the end of the Roman Empire, but still still the

842
00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:59.599
Roman Empire, and he wrote a book called The Confessions

843
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:04.360
that literally invented the genre of memoir. Before that time,

844
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:07.960
we didn't you know, there were biographies of famous people,

845
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:10.159
but they're written in almost like a mythic way by

846
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:12.760
someone else. It almost reads like a story about a god.

847
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.400
And some people had letters and correspondence, but there was

848
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.960
no like this, honest like pour your heart onto the page.

849
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:22.639
People didn't do that until Saint Augustine came along. And

850
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:24.599
so he wrote this book to called The Inventions, which

851
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.559
is as it sounds, it's his life story as a

852
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.920
long confession to God. And so this became kind of

853
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:34.840
foundational for the Western canon. Now, of course, people still

854
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.440
know about it now, and again he was very important,

855
00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:40.960
influential in Christianity, but just in a literary sense. This

856
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:45.320
is a cornerstone of the literary canon of the West

857
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:47.639
and so a lot of people also know it from

858
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.639
that dimension, but fewer people nowadays. Like in Shakespeare's time,

859
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:56.840
they would have known about the different aspects of the Confessions.

860
00:48:57.400 --> 00:48:59.880
Like people know about Romeo and juliet even if they've

861
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:03.119
never come close to reading a Shakespeare play or seeing

862
00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:05.400
one on the stage. You know, they know about They

863
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:07.440
can see the balcony and go like, oh, yeah, that's

864
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.880
that Romeo and Juliette thing. You know, Romeo and Juliette

865
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:14.159
on the balcony. The famous scene from Augustine's Confessions is

866
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:19.960
Saint Augustine kind of is really torn up about a

867
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.880
bunch of pairs. Him and his teenage kind of like

868
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:26.800
up to no good friends go and smash for no reason,

869
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.440
and he really has torn up about these bears for

870
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:31.760
all of his writing, even though as a as a

871
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:33.880
well to do Roman youth, he spent a lot of

872
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.960
time in the brothel. You know, there was all sorts

873
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:39.480
of fun stuff. So you can just imagine these these

874
00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:41.920
students in Shakespeare's time like turning the pages being like,

875
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:43.639
why can't we hear more about the brothel instead of

876
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:48.079
these stupid pairs, Like this is sick, So I kind

877
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:51.480
of telegraph what the arc is going to be, where

878
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:56.880
we start and where he's probably going to end. But luckily, unfortunately,

879
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:58.840
whatever you want to call it, most of my readers

880
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:02.360
will not be away air enough about the Gustin's confessions

881
00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:04.239
to be like, I see where this is going. And

882
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:05.760
even if you do know where it's going, it's still

883
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.760
interesting to watch. But what's really cool about the book

884
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.239
is it's kind of highlighted this famous ancient like I said,

885
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:15.639
cornerstone of the Wetstern Cannon. People like, oh wait, what's

886
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:17.880
the source material of this? Let me go check it out.

887
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:19.199
I have a lot of people reach out to me

888
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:20.960
that say, like they picked it up for the first time,

889
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:23.280
and not all Christian, a lot of people who aren't Christian.

890
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:25.360
They're just like, yeah, I feel like I should I

891
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:27.320
should read this like I read Moby Dick or something,

892
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:31.440
just so I'm more sophisticated. So yeah, that's that's the

893
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:33.920
Redemption arc. I tried to have a very Augustinian arc,

894
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:38.960
and even Austin's name Austin DeSantis. Austin is the Anglicized

895
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:43.760
version of Augustine and DeSantis means saint or the sanctified,

896
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:47.400
so it's it's all there, but not every reader sees it,

897
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:49.679
and that's totally cool. But the Easter eggs are there

898
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:50.360
if you want them.

899
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:52.679
I've never read that, so I got to go check

900
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:53.079
that out.

901
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:55.840
It's it's a little different remembers written in four hundred

902
00:50:55.880 --> 00:51:00.840
a D. But there's a there's some great work to discuss,

903
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:03.360
like why this was so influential across so much of

904
00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:04.760
our art throughout time.

905
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:09.800
Yeah. Interesting. I also wanted to talk I mentioned this earlier,

906
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:14.800
UH before we hit record. I fell in love with

907
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:19.719
the Ai Virgil. I want to know what what went

908
00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:24.280
into uh went into the creation of Virgil because he

909
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:28.440
was he was fun to watch, UH and his relationship

910
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:35.519
with with Austin and Father Ambrose UH was interesting to see,

911
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:37.880
UH form How how did that come up? It?

912
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:41.880
So the name itself is pulled straight out of Dante's

913
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:47.119
Divine Comedy in Virgil is Virgil is the poet who

914
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:50.039
wrote the Need, which is kind of like, if you

915
00:51:50.199 --> 00:51:53.199
had to it's fiction. Well, it's kind of like these, Uh,

916
00:51:53.239 --> 00:51:57.400
these analogies get harder when you go pre Christianity or

917
00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:01.880
you're not including Judaism, like they didn't like the ancient

918
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:04.719
Greeks didn't have a Bible, but the Iliad and the

919
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:08.880
Odyssey almost functioned like a Bible, like everyone knew it,

920
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:11.480
they had the stories. It was like a foundational mythos

921
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.960
for their entire people and their society. The Romans kind

922
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:17.199
of wanted that too, because they kind of looked up

923
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:21.239
to the Greeks. So Virgil penned this book called the Eneid.

924
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.199
I'm sure there's people screaming at the screen who are

925
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.239
much more better at explaining ancient history than me, and

926
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:30.280
all the facts I'm getting wrong, but more or less,

927
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:35.480
the Inneid is this famous thing. And in Dante's Dante,

928
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:38.000
when he wrote The Divine Comedy, he needed a what

929
00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:42.239
he called virtuous pagan to take Dante through hell and purgatory,

930
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.039
and Virgil ends up being his guide as one of

931
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:49.639
you know, Virgil being one of Dante's What was famous

932
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:51.760
about the Indead is people say that the Latin and

933
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:55.760
the pros and it is of almost another level of quality.

934
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.880
That's why I kind of took this supreme place in

935
00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:04.320
the societ So so Dante Aligari has this huge love

936
00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:08.079
for Virgil, the author of the Aenea, and so in

937
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.079
my book, Virgil ends up meeting up with Austin and

938
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:15.159
bringing him through the alien ship, which is very reminiscent

939
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:18.599
of the Divine comedy as you go to different aspects.

940
00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:20.639
So that was it, how to how to make it.

941
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:24.159
Everyone loves Virgil. He's by far the favorite character of

942
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:27.440
the whole book. And you listen to the audio Virgin

943
00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:30.320
he's voiced by a guy named Justin Thomas James, who

944
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:33.320
is just outstanding. He actually did some of the original

945
00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:36.400
music for the audio book too. So Justin is just

946
00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:41.840
this multi talented Canadian. He's a Kaffecker Canadian. There's a

947
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.519
lot of Canadian influence in this novel. I gotta tell you,

948
00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:47.800
you guys are just just bringing this art to another

949
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:54.880
another sphere. Its awesome. But when I wrote Virgil, so

950
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:58.960
just the conception is that aliens are here. They're purporting

951
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.039
to be Catholic. They seem to be Catholic enough to,

952
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:03.719
you know, cross the galaxy to go to the Vatican.

953
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:08.360
They's very outward signs that they're seemingly devout. Again, we

954
00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:10.639
don't know if it's a show or what they're up to.

955
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:14.119
So I just thought they're ais like if you're gonna

956
00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:18.760
if you're a society that's ah, you know, advanced society

957
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:21.360
that's very religious. You know, your robots are going to

958
00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:25.199
be religious too, So I wanted to depict a saint.

959
00:54:25.480 --> 00:54:30.119
It's like a saint essentially, and so imagine a saintly robot,

960
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:34.239
you know, C three po but like epically sat And

961
00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:38.119
I don't mean saintly like ned Flanders, like not Simpson's

962
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:42.079
like Oakley Dugley. No, we're talking like people who you

963
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:46.079
could be like, wow, that's an aspiring person.

964
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:50.760
This is like a pure being. Like they're so exactly

965
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:54.360
innocent in a sense. But they follow the rule book

966
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:58.239
basically to the t. And even when it goes against

967
00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:06.719
what there its race is is doing, it still wants

968
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:10.559
to do what's right. And because you know, I'm kind

969
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.280
of skirting around the issue here because near the end,

970
00:55:13.639 --> 00:55:16.239
uh well we know right, like you know where I'm

971
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:21.000
going here, But Virgil ends up doing what's right. And

972
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.519
and that's when I knew. I was like, oh my god,

973
00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:24.320
I love this guy.

974
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:28.000
You know, yeah, yeah, Virgil is I have a I

975
00:55:28.039 --> 00:55:30.440
had a copy editor too, so this is different from

976
00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:35.079
my Canadian editor. This was a a just for in

977
00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:37.760
the pilots developmental auditor kind of helps you with the story.

978
00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:42.440
Copy editor. They they don't just like edit typos. In fact,

979
00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:44.719
it's much more than that. They helped make the words flow,

980
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:46.719
the sentences. They might be like, you talked about this

981
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:48.360
here in this chapter, I don't think you need to

982
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:50.920
cover it again in this later chapter. So it's substantive,

983
00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:53.039
but it's less like the big story. So I had

984
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:58.079
this copy editor from Brooklyn, Like I was convinced she

985
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:02.199
would just the Catholic, like the sort of individual that,

986
00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:04.760
at least on the surface I imagined would be hostile

987
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.559
to Christianity, even something that just went near it. But

988
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.679
she really loved the novel, and I all these notes

989
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:15.559
when we get to Virgil and some of the things

990
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.119
he does towards the end, and she's like, Virgil, I

991
00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:20.000
love it him like this, these are most of the

992
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:22.360
notes are like, you're bad at writing here. You need

993
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:24.519
to fix this. This is the problem. So it's very

994
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:27.920
pleased to get to these notes of you know, I

995
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:30.039
love him, he's so pure. I just wish I knew

996
00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:32.920
someone like him. And that's actually one part about the

997
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:37.000
book that surprised me, because I would say Virgil's arc

998
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:41.679
is probably one of the smallest. He's kind of consistently

999
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:44.760
the way he is, and I think people are really

1000
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:48.960
thirsty for what are called paragons. You know, Superman's a paragon,

1001
00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:52.760
meaning they're not really a flawed individual. They kind of

1002
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:56.199
have all the pieces put together for the most but

1003
00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:59.079
they get in conflicts and they do have to overcome obstacles,

1004
00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:03.760
but they generally are like more or less, just this

1005
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:07.519
aspiring personality to look up to the whole time. And

1006
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:11.840
we've kind of in our very postmodern, very kind of

1007
00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:15.079
ironical end of the twentieth century or beginning of the

1008
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:19.360
twenty first, like, we started kind of not seeing as

1009
00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:23.199
many of those characters in fiction as often. I think

1010
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.679
people thought it was a little unsophisticated, shallow, and I

1011
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:27.599
do think it can be done badly, but when it's

1012
00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.239
done well, I think we all really love to see

1013
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:34.000
a good paragon in our fiction. And I think Virgil,

1014
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:38.119
I'm honestly surprised, But as I reflect on why people

1015
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:41.280
are so into that character, I think that's why. I

1016
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:44.079
think it's just different, and it's I feel like it's earned,

1017
00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:48.360
it's not just there arbitrarily. Virgil pays a big price

1018
00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:54.000
for being the way that he is but he you know,

1019
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:57.639
he's he is who he is to his soul, and

1020
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:00.559
that makes it way more interesting. But also I just

1021
00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:04.719
think from a science fiction point of view, the Catholic

1022
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:07.960
aliens are going to make See three po super super catholic.

1023
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:11.199
You know, So that's all what we're used to expecting

1024
00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:14.320
when we meet the alien robot. But it's once I

1025
00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:16.559
you know, that's what a lot of people like about

1026
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:19.360
my book. It's a lot of a lot of comments

1027
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.079
are When I heard it was about Catholic aliens, I

1028
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:23.559
thought it was a joke, and then I saw that

1029
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:26.360
this guy played it straight the entire time and took

1030
00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:29.119
it really seriously, and I was into it. So it's like,

1031
00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:31.440
once he set the premises, people like to see, Like, yeah,

1032
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:34.239
I suppose the aliens all the alien robots also would

1033
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.079
be pretty religious as well. What's a religious robot look like?

1034
00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:39.320
That doesn't make any sense. I just got to read

1035
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:40.119
more to figure it out.

1036
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:44.639
Yeah. Now, my next question is kind of hard to

1037
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:48.159
ask because it really goes into some of the reveals

1038
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.639
through the book, and I really wanted to escape that.

1039
00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:55.800
And the reason why is because there's some mind blowing

1040
00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:59.039
things that happen in this book that I feel you

1041
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:01.400
kind of have to go into blind in order to

1042
00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:06.000
experience similar to what I experienced while reading it. So

1043
00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:13.280
the Aliens, they're Catholic, they became so through a fascinating

1044
00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:15.920
thread that I don't think we should spoil because of

1045
00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:19.119
what I was just talking about. However, I do think

1046
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:22.599
it's essential to acknowledge that the Aliens, although they do

1047
00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:26.800
really try, they are not saintly by any means, and

1048
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:30.920
fall into similar sins of humanity what we've been kind

1049
00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:34.280
of discussing throughout this entire show, and I was wondering

1050
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:37.079
if you could maybe discuss a little bit about that,

1051
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:41.119
because yes, yeah, ahead, I was just going to say,

1052
00:59:41.159 --> 00:59:44.159
this kind of contrasts against what those reviewers saying that

1053
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:49.119
this is merely Christian fiction. This goes against that, It

1054
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:53.199
pushes against that idea. So it's kind of weird to

1055
00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:55.800
me that people would just summon up as Christian fiction.

1056
00:59:57.039 --> 01:00:01.159
Yeah, I think, you know, I told my story, and

1057
01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:06.800
I think I got a pretty weak tea unsophisticated, superficial

1058
01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:11.599
Christianity in my upbringing. I think that's a lot of

1059
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:13.960
people did, and a lot of people in the culture

1060
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:18.719
got that, whether they were Christian or not. Ned Flanders

1061
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:23.079
is not a bad sort of example of of kind

1062
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:26.440
of like the id of what the caricature of a

1063
01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:30.719
Christian is, you know, not Thomas Aquinas, who I consider

1064
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:34.639
one of the most impressive thinkers in human history. Not

1065
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:40.760
you know, all the people who had sophisticated understandings of

1066
01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:45.360
their faith and were willing to die for it. You know,

1067
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:48.159
like some of the martyrs during the Holocausts. There were

1068
01:00:48.199 --> 01:00:52.239
people who who gave their life to free Jews who

1069
01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:54.800
were going to be killed in Auschwitz. There's a famous saint.

1070
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:58.159
My wife's from families from Poland is a saint. There's

1071
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:01.480
Saint Maximilian Kolbe and that's his story. I mean, like,

1072
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:05.440
these aren't dumb people who are just kind of going

1073
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:08.719
through things simply like that. So I got a lot

1074
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:12.840
of the culture in my background. Like I'm very sympathetic

1075
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:16.079
because that's what I got a lot of. But this

1076
01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:21.800
idea that Christianity makes everything okally docally and everything nice

1077
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:26.119
and oh the fact that you're showing Christian sinning is

1078
01:01:26.719 --> 01:01:32.760
uh is somehow not consistent with the Christian tradition. You

1079
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:35.199
should show them like everyone who's Christian should be perfect

1080
01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:38.719
because Christianity makes people perfect. It's like, no, no serious

1081
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.639
people have ever said that. And frankly, the New Testament

1082
01:01:41.760 --> 01:01:44.280
doesn't show that, and none of the Bible shows that.

1083
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:48.840
The Bible is filled with betrayal, lust, people who who

1084
01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:52.440
have literally seen miracles from God stopping to believe in God.

1085
01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:54.400
I mean, that's humanity.

1086
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:55.000
And if you.

1087
01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:57.840
Don't write that, no one is going to buy into

1088
01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:01.159
this religion. Really, Christianity became a thing because it was

1089
01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:08.320
a potent, strong, intellectual, solid faith. And I don't know

1090
01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:12.079
what happened in the various centuries, but by the time

1091
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:14.920
I came along, that had kind of left the picture,

1092
01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:18.440
and we kind of got the ned Flanders version of Christianity.

1093
01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:20.679
And you know, church is just a place to be nice,

1094
01:02:21.159 --> 01:02:23.480
and I think a lot of people fell away, I think,

1095
01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:27.320
and reasonably so if that's the Christianity that they're getting.

1096
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:30.880
But I wanted to show what the real deal. And

1097
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:33.559
if you're going to show the real deal, there isn't

1098
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:39.360
one Christian I guess, besides Mary in the Christian tradition

1099
01:02:39.400 --> 01:02:41.960
who's not a sinner. So even if we get Catholic

1100
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:46.639
aliens like you better believe they're flawed. Okay, These aren't

1101
01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:50.320
actual angels coming down from heaven. These are other creatures.

1102
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:54.840
And it's fun. It's fun to play with that expectation

1103
01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:58.440
because I think some Catholic readers were probably like surprised

1104
01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:00.639
to see that. But it's also the readers who are

1105
01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:04.599
non religious and are just expecting kind of milk toast.

1106
01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:09.599
This is gonna be boring, nothing happens, no Christian sin.

1107
01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:13.960
Christians do evil things all the time. Christian scandal, which

1108
01:03:14.000 --> 01:03:17.159
is what they would be called the delta between their

1109
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:20.320
purported beliefs and what they actually do, is the reason

1110
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:24.280
people have not become Christian, deconverted from Christianity, and has

1111
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:27.639
been plaguing the faith ever since Peter denied Christ three

1112
01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:30.800
times before the cock crows, which for those who don't know,

1113
01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:33.679
is the New Testament. I mean that's that's the first

1114
01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:36.599
pope of the Catholic Church is Saint Peter. So this

1115
01:03:36.679 --> 01:03:39.119
is an old story and I don't know why we

1116
01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:42.079
haven't been telling stories like that because it's always been

1117
01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:46.800
this rich layered tapestry, but we have it, and so

1118
01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:49.559
I wanted to show that warts and all, you are

1119
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:54.000
not sanctified because of what you say. You're sanctified by

1120
01:03:54.039 --> 01:03:59.280
what you do and the aliens. That's honestly, that's kind

1121
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.360
of a Catholic tape. But that's how I feel, and

1122
01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:06.800
I think that the the aliens are no different, and

1123
01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:10.360
so we have to depict that. And unfortunately, when you're

1124
01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:14.360
dealing with something as powerful as an alien race, you know,

1125
01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:16.639
like Independence Day is a great movie. You can see

1126
01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:19.960
the parallels to Independence Day in my book, but it's

1127
01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:24.360
so absurd. I mean, I think if there are aliens

1128
01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:27.840
and they have into you know, lack to travel, you know,

1129
01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:31.000
if a kid takes out his dad's spaceship for joy ride,

1130
01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:34.480
he could conquer the earth or depopulate it without much effort.

1131
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:38.559
I mean, this is the asymmetry of power between aliens

1132
01:04:38.599 --> 01:04:42.239
capable of that sort of thing in humanity. So with

1133
01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:44.920
that kind of power and the ability to send all

1134
01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:46.519
sorts of terrible things can happen.

1135
01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.159
Yeah. Well, I really loved the Aliens and your creation

1136
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:53.440
of the aliens because I honestly I went in expecting

1137
01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:56.039
it to be that. You know, they got to be

1138
01:04:56.119 --> 01:05:00.800
perfect if they're also Catholic, How could they be otherwise?

1139
01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:04.960
Was my question? But you answered that question quite well

1140
01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:10.840
by showing their own you know, creatureness because you can't

1141
01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:14.880
say humanity because they're definitely not humans, but but they're

1142
01:05:14.920 --> 01:05:19.000
conscious beings. And because they're conscious beings, they have flaws,

1143
01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:23.119
like huge flaws in their line of thinking. And you

1144
01:05:23.239 --> 01:05:26.920
go into some dark territory with that, and this dark

1145
01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:30.599
territory is very reflective of what's going on today.

1146
01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:35.280
Yeah, I think that, Uh, there's you know, there's a

1147
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:36.840
lot of stuff that happens in the Middle East in

1148
01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:38.880
the book and I wrote that before What's what's going

1149
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:43.920
on now? And people were like, how did you know

1150
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:45.760
that was gonna happen? Like, I didn't really know it

1151
01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:46.400
was gonna happen.

1152
01:05:46.559 --> 01:05:48.360
Well, if you think about it, it's been kind of

1153
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.719
happening off and on for thousands of years.

1154
01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:53.239
Yeah, So it's a lot of turmoil in that part

1155
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:54.760
of the world. And frankly, there's a lot of turmoil

1156
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:57.920
human history. I mean, the one thing, you know, going

1157
01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:02.079
back to future predictions in the years and six thousand AD,

1158
01:06:02.440 --> 01:06:04.760
we're gonna have war and we're gonna have killing, and

1159
01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:07.440
it's gonna be injustice and it's probably gonna be worse

1160
01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:11.039
than it is now. I can probably bank that bet

1161
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:18.199
as well. Yeah, I just I the the I wanted.

1162
01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:23.960
I think you owe your audience your honest assessment. I mean,

1163
01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:26.079
what people are buying a ticket to when they read

1164
01:06:26.159 --> 01:06:31.039
my book is basically my imagination, my mind, and I

1165
01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:34.679
wanted to be you know, I set the parameters aliens

1166
01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:38.039
are coming. This is what they're like, you know, parameters

1167
01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:40.079
I probably aren't even written in the book. And then

1168
01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:42.559
I have to run that simulation and I run it

1169
01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:45.480
in front of all of you, and if you at

1170
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:50.840
all think that I'm faking it, I'm I'm like getting

1171
01:06:50.840 --> 01:06:53.039
an answer in my simulation, but choosing not to put

1172
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:55.719
that into my novel because I don't know it's in

1173
01:06:55.840 --> 01:06:58.320
politic or I don't like the way certain thing looks.

1174
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:02.719
Readers detect that stuff so easily, and that's I think,

1175
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:05.280
you know, there's that's why a lot of like people

1176
01:07:05.320 --> 01:07:07.880
are getting mad at some of the art that comes

1177
01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:09.840
out now. They feel like they're being lied to by

1178
01:07:09.880 --> 01:07:12.559
the creators, Like really, you expect me to believe that?

1179
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:14.400
Like I don't believe that, Like what are you talking about?

1180
01:07:14.599 --> 01:07:18.000
So I just I took it as an important thing

1181
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:21.039
that if Catholic aliens showed up, what do I think

1182
01:07:21.079 --> 01:07:24.119
would happen? Not it must happen. There's other wayss could go,

1183
01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:29.239
but uh, let's just say that it doesn't go well,

1184
01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:32.239
you know, I think you have to. There's like a

1185
01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:35.400
moment of there's an exhale when you realize the alien

1186
01:07:35.440 --> 01:07:39.039
ship wasn't come here to like eat all humans, you know,

1187
01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:40.840
and you're kind of going, oh, they just want to

1188
01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:43.280
go to church, Like that's what we were all worried

1189
01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:46.760
about for five years. But if you think that, you know, after,

1190
01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:50.039
you know, one day later, you start to realize, oh,

1191
01:07:50.119 --> 01:07:52.599
this is just setting up a whole bunch of additional

1192
01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:54.639
problems that we're all going to have to contend with.

1193
01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:56.440
And that's all president in my book. And if I

1194
01:07:56.480 --> 01:07:58.800
didn't show that, Jason, I think people would have thrown

1195
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:01.599
the book away. It's like, I don't don't lie to me,

1196
01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:05.360
or don't be so unimaginative as a writer that you

1197
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:08.599
can't foresee some of these conflicts that would essentially unfold.

1198
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:10.800
So I wanted to show warts and all. And I

1199
01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:14.960
think that's you can only justify people reading your book

1200
01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:16.560
if you're honest with them. So that's what I.

1201
01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:19.000
Wanted to look forward. And I think it's kind of

1202
01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:22.239
maybe even a responsibility on your part to do that

1203
01:08:22.359 --> 01:08:26.640
kind of thing as a science fiction author, because you're you.

1204
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.079
As I mentioned before, there is science in this book,

1205
01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:34.600
and consciousness is a form of just the study of

1206
01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:40.800
consciousness and other consciousnesses. That's hard to say consciousness is

1207
01:08:41.079 --> 01:08:45.479
that could exist. You know, I'm sort of rambling here,

1208
01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:49.840
but I'm fascinated with consciousness and alien consciousness and what

1209
01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:53.039
consciousness is and all that. So the fact that you

1210
01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:55.479
had the aliens act the way they did despite what

1211
01:08:55.520 --> 01:08:58.880
they believe was just a fascinating aspect to me, and

1212
01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:01.920
it'll kind of blew my mind. I was like, Okay,

1213
01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:02.479
I'm hooked.

1214
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.199
This book is awesome, And did I get you at

1215
01:09:05.199 --> 01:09:09.039
the prologue because the basically my prologue functions as kind

1216
01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:12.640
of a window into a flash forward of a sense,

1217
01:09:13.239 --> 01:09:16.239
so it's pretty bracing. That's usually my filter if people

1218
01:09:16.239 --> 01:09:18.640
can get through the prologue and still want to continue reading.

1219
01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:21.479
I wanted to put my filter right at the very

1220
01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:23.960
front so people could decide if this was for them.

1221
01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:27.760
I remember not knowing what to expect right as I mentioned,

1222
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:31.720
I kind of had like an unfair preconception of what

1223
01:09:31.760 --> 01:09:33.479
this book was going to be. It's unfair to you,

1224
01:09:34.479 --> 01:09:39.720
but it was there regardless, And I remember listening to

1225
01:09:39.800 --> 01:09:42.359
that first little bit, the first couple of chapters, and

1226
01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:44.760
I was just like, Okay, there's something here, right, like

1227
01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:47.720
something really good here, And so I obviously I kept

1228
01:09:47.760 --> 01:09:50.239
going and I really enjoyed the experience.

1229
01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:56.479
I'm really glad you did. What was your favorite part,

1230
01:09:56.600 --> 01:09:59.319
in vague terms, Jason, what part really had you like?

1231
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:03.560
Oh, okay, there's a few. Well, first of all, Virgil

1232
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:07.640
just him, he was awesome. But also one of my

1233
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:11.399
favorite parts was the reason why the Aliens are Catholic,

1234
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:16.239
because you actually answer that question, and that was like

1235
01:10:16.319 --> 01:10:18.520
the first time I had to sit back and I

1236
01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:24.399
was like, Okay, wow, that's really interesting. Just imagine that

1237
01:10:24.439 --> 01:10:27.279
word actually happen, Like how would that affect the world?

1238
01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:32.560
And the ramifications of that revelation in the book itself

1239
01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:37.359
has some there's some really fascinating consequences because the reasons

1240
01:10:37.840 --> 01:10:42.960
that they have for believing in everything should you would

1241
01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:48.079
think would just make everyone suddenly convert to Catholicism or Catholicism, right,

1242
01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:51.399
But that's not what happens. In fact, it creates a

1243
01:10:51.439 --> 01:10:55.920
lot more tension and a lot more conflict than you

1244
01:10:55.920 --> 01:11:00.079
would ever expect, you know, just rationalizing it.

1245
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:03.279
Yeah, I'm so glad that was your action, because that's

1246
01:11:03.279 --> 01:11:05.920
how I feel too. That's my personal opinion. If the

1247
01:11:05.960 --> 01:11:11.039
reasons that the Aliens became Catholic were somehow replicated in

1248
01:11:11.199 --> 01:11:16.640
our world now, like for example, that the knowledge just

1249
01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:20.600
is entered in a different pathway, I don't think it

1250
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:22.880
would go well. I say that as a Catholic, like

1251
01:11:23.079 --> 01:11:27.960
I don't think it would go well in society. There's

1252
01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:30.279
I don't want to give too much away, but that

1253
01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:31.840
was part of the reason I wanted to write the book.

1254
01:11:33.520 --> 01:11:35.800
In other interviews. If people want to see other interviews

1255
01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:37.920
where I do talk about spoilers, they can go to

1256
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:40.079
they can go check those out on my website.

1257
01:11:40.079 --> 01:11:41.760
I have a list of all my Okay, yeah, there

1258
01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:42.079
you go.

1259
01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:47.039
But I think I think that book first, and then

1260
01:11:47.159 --> 01:11:49.800
go listen to those interviews. By by a few copies,

1261
01:11:49.800 --> 01:11:51.760
by copies for your whole street. Actually that would be

1262
01:11:52.279 --> 01:11:55.399
that's yeah, that's always good. I mean, who needs just

1263
01:11:55.439 --> 01:11:57.199
one copy of the book, I mean when you can

1264
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:03.279
have a hundred. But uh, my website is Mr Am

1265
01:12:03.319 --> 01:12:06.479
I going to get this wrong? Mr Leonard author dot com.

1266
01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:11.079
So it's like mister Leonard author, m r H. Everyone

1267
01:12:11.079 --> 01:12:13.800
calls me mister Leonard, which is correct, but it's actually

1268
01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:17.560
my first two initials, m R. Leonard, author dot com.

1269
01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:20.800
Yeah, and so go there and check out those because,

1270
01:12:21.319 --> 01:12:23.359
like I said, I don't really want to go into

1271
01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:28.239
the spoiler that spoilery territory, because my I think the

1272
01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:32.319
people who listen to this podcast would benefit from from

1273
01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:35.039
learning it as they go, going in as blind as

1274
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:39.119
possible when it gets to the philosophical and even scientific

1275
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:41.760
reasons for everything that's going on.

1276
01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:46.079
Yeahs, you think this will be popular with your audience.

1277
01:12:46.119 --> 01:12:50.399
I mean there's there's actually a huge overlap in the

1278
01:12:50.520 --> 01:12:55.279
Ven diagram between horror fans and Catholic readers, believe it

1279
01:12:55.359 --> 01:12:59.319
or not, So it's not completely You've one person said

1280
01:12:59.319 --> 01:13:02.039
that to me. He's like, well, isn't like those two

1281
01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:05.720
different circles a science fiction fan and Catholic people, and

1282
01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:08.600
like there's probably barely any overlap. And I'm like, actually,

1283
01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:10.880
there's a shocking amount of overlap. I think this is

1284
01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:13.880
kind of a poorly understood thing about the publishing world

1285
01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:16.920
is yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't realize that

1286
01:13:17.159 --> 01:13:20.319
these interests tend to intersect. There's all sorts of people

1287
01:13:20.359 --> 01:13:22.720
out there that you maybe you wouldn't know it, but

1288
01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:26.640
one of the most famous Catholic podcasters they call him

1289
01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:29.560
a Joe Rogan of podcasting, Matt Frad. He's a huge

1290
01:13:29.600 --> 01:13:31.439
horror fan. I don't know. He reads a lot of

1291
01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:34.159
in the genre, but he actually writes it with his sister,

1292
01:13:34.479 --> 01:13:37.000
and he has he publishes hard short stories.

1293
01:13:37.119 --> 01:13:38.960
So what's his name? I got a check list?

1294
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:40.640
Matt Frad.

1295
01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:41.159
Matt.

1296
01:13:41.479 --> 01:13:43.199
He doesn't do it on his main channel. I think

1297
01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:46.239
he has a separate channel for that, but like, you know,

1298
01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:48.359
just to show that the interests are there.

1299
01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:51.479
What how do you spell his last name? Fr r

1300
01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:54.600
A D D. Okay, I had it almost right. I

1301
01:13:55.039 --> 01:13:55.439
was missing.

1302
01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:57.600
His show's called Pints with the Quinas.

1303
01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:01.640
Okay, that that sounds interesting, But yeah, you're right. You know,

1304
01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:05.119
because of the culture and that we live in, living

1305
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:07.640
in the Western world, there's a lot of people who

1306
01:14:08.520 --> 01:14:11.159
listen to this show and watch the YouTube channel that

1307
01:14:11.239 --> 01:14:17.399
come from this background, like Catholicism and whatnot, so there

1308
01:14:17.479 --> 01:14:22.159
is an overlap. But and science fiction, because I know

1309
01:14:22.239 --> 01:14:24.680
a lot of my audience read science fiction. It's just

1310
01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:29.359
not something I usually cover. On my channel. But I'm

1311
01:14:29.399 --> 01:14:34.359
totally I'm totally open as obvious here to you know,

1312
01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:41.640
spreading my wings and investigating new avenues. So I think

1313
01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:42.239
this is kind of.

1314
01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:44.560
Would you call this this is not the hardest sci fi?

1315
01:14:44.680 --> 01:14:46.880
I mean, I tried to be. There's some science stuff

1316
01:14:46.880 --> 01:14:50.199
in there. When Aleens arrive on Earth, that's kind of mainstream.

1317
01:14:50.239 --> 01:14:53.880
That's like Independence Day arrival, the day the Earth stood still.

1318
01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:57.399
It's like we've seen the Martians showing up since the

1319
01:14:57.399 --> 01:15:00.840
War of the World, and it's just another example of that.

1320
01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:02.039
It's just my take on it.

1321
01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:05.319
And it's not like I never it's not hard science

1322
01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:07.479
fiction at all. You're not going to get confused by

1323
01:15:07.479 --> 01:15:09.359
the science that is in this book. But there is

1324
01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:12.159
a little bit of science because there kind of has

1325
01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:12.920
to be here and there.

1326
01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:14.800
Right, Well, you've got to have some right, I mean

1327
01:15:15.079 --> 01:15:17.520
absolutely to make it feel real. It's like salt, you

1328
01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:18.760
got to put the right dose in.

1329
01:15:19.159 --> 01:15:23.119
Yeah, but it's definitely like the first contact type story

1330
01:15:23.760 --> 01:15:28.920
of science fiction. And yeah, I've read a fair amount

1331
01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:31.840
of that. I really enjoy that genre.

1332
01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:37.479
Yeah, I think it's interesting. And someone was talking about

1333
01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:40.840
there's I don't know if it's the origin of it.

1334
01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:43.640
But you know, you can imagine first contact between you know,

1335
01:15:43.720 --> 01:15:47.119
native peoples in the Western Hemisphere and Europeans, Like first

1336
01:15:47.119 --> 01:15:50.319
contact is kind of a part of human existence, Like

1337
01:15:50.359 --> 01:15:53.760
we're constantly encountering peoples across our history that we didn't

1338
01:15:54.119 --> 01:15:57.119
know about or understand and we have to figure that out.

1339
01:15:57.199 --> 01:15:59.680
So I think that's why I kind of peel sometimes

1340
01:15:59.760 --> 01:16:02.119
large than people who are just into like space operas

1341
01:16:02.279 --> 01:16:04.880
or hard sci fi that explore like a high level

1342
01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:09.159
scientific concepts in a fiction universe. So first Contact is

1343
01:16:09.159 --> 01:16:11.560
almost like a cheat. It's science fiction, but it's really

1344
01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:15.520
more closer to general fiction. But that I will continue

1345
01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:20.520
this story of Austin because by the time the book ends,

1346
01:16:20.520 --> 01:16:23.920
we're at like t plus fifty, like fifty days post arrival.

1347
01:16:23.920 --> 01:16:27.000
We're not you know that a lot happens in that time,

1348
01:16:27.199 --> 01:16:30.399
and the aliens are still here at the end. So

1349
01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:33.800
what happens to the world ten years later fifty and

1350
01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:36.359
so that's kind of things I'm going to start exploring

1351
01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:37.800
in the sex sequent works.

1352
01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:41.399
So is that can you say that that's what you're

1353
01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:42.840
working on right now on?

1354
01:16:43.079 --> 01:16:45.640
Yeah, I'm working on the sequel to this book. It'll

1355
01:16:46.159 --> 01:16:49.359
take place about ten to eleven years after the events,

1356
01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:52.399
and it will be following Austin DeSantis, the protagonist.

1357
01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:57.560
Nice. That's that interests me too. Do you have any

1358
01:16:57.640 --> 01:17:00.319
idea is there any projection of when that might be

1359
01:17:00.359 --> 01:17:00.840
coming out?

1360
01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:05.680
Speaking of writing habits from the beginning, that's something I

1361
01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:08.600
have to lock down a little bit better. I anticipate

1362
01:17:08.640 --> 01:17:10.640
a trilogy, and I think I want to write books

1363
01:17:10.680 --> 01:17:15.840
two and three simultaneously or basically write them together so

1364
01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:19.760
it coheres as a whole. So I'm really going to

1365
01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:23.439
be writing like two books and then publishing them in order,

1366
01:17:24.439 --> 01:17:29.119
so that could delay production, but not in twenty twenty five,

1367
01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:31.039
I can tell you that. But if you go to

1368
01:17:31.079 --> 01:17:33.439
my website, you can sign up for my newsletter and

1369
01:17:33.479 --> 01:17:35.880
that you'll be the first people to know if people

1370
01:17:35.880 --> 01:17:38.479
sign up at Mr Leonard author dot com.

1371
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:43.560
Awesome. Now, science fiction is it can be anyway an

1372
01:17:43.640 --> 01:17:49.039
idea driven genre. Pilgrims I think is big on ideas,

1373
01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:54.800
as we pretty well discussed here. Where can you tell

1374
01:17:54.840 --> 01:17:57.520
us where you're taking this series? Are there any other

1375
01:17:57.640 --> 01:18:02.760
big ideas that you're exploring without of course boiling anything.

1376
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:08.920
Well, it's it's probably the same idea, but just following

1377
01:18:08.960 --> 01:18:13.279
the ramifications through a little bit further. I mean it's

1378
01:18:13.800 --> 01:18:16.560
it's earth shattering. What if there were, you know, aliens

1379
01:18:16.600 --> 01:18:19.600
here that purport to have one religion. I mean people

1380
01:18:19.640 --> 01:18:23.039
are wondering what it's all the conflict when you purport

1381
01:18:23.079 --> 01:18:26.000
to have one religion, it's generally at the exclusion of

1382
01:18:26.039 --> 01:18:29.520
all the others. So just to I always said, I

1383
01:18:29.560 --> 01:18:34.119
don't know why my book was not written seventy years ago,

1384
01:18:34.439 --> 01:18:37.039
and why it's not a subgenre of books where it's

1385
01:18:37.760 --> 01:18:41.920
you know, Muslim aliens come to Earth, Jewish aliens come

1386
01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:46.000
to Earth, Buddhist aliens come to Earth, Hindu aliens. Like

1387
01:18:46.159 --> 01:18:50.439
why hasn't every you know, the uh, the Southern Methodists

1388
01:18:50.479 --> 01:18:54.000
Congregation comes to Earth. I don't know all the different things,

1389
01:18:54.680 --> 01:18:56.479
and there's like, you know, it's been played out, and

1390
01:18:56.479 --> 01:18:58.720
then you know, no one's even writing in that little

1391
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:01.600
subgenre because back in the fifties and sixties they wrote

1392
01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:05.520
all the works of this kind and everyone's board of it.

1393
01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:08.199
It's not that interesting. I was shocked that, like, I

1394
01:19:08.239 --> 01:19:11.239
was one of the first to approach it. And it's

1395
01:19:11.279 --> 01:19:13.000
kind of like a man in a high castle. It's

1396
01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:16.359
a high that's film. K Dick's work where the Axis

1397
01:19:16.359 --> 01:19:18.920
wins World War two? And you know, what does the

1398
01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:21.640
world look like after that? Amazon turned that into a

1399
01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:25.439
series for I think like four seasons. So you know,

1400
01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:28.600
if Catholic aliens show up, what does that mean for

1401
01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:30.279
all the other world religions? What does that mean for

1402
01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:34.159
world societies? What does that mean for America? I mean,

1403
01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:36.119
we're not the most Catholic country. There's a lot of

1404
01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:38.319
Catholics in the United States, but we're not the most

1405
01:19:38.359 --> 01:19:40.920
Catholic country. Like, do we go down a few pegs?

1406
01:19:40.920 --> 01:19:42.680
Does it matter how many Catholics you have in a

1407
01:19:42.680 --> 01:19:46.880
country for power? What about all the other you know,

1408
01:19:46.920 --> 01:19:50.520
people who don't believe? And are they kind of nonchalant

1409
01:19:50.560 --> 01:19:53.439
about it? Are they upset? If you read my book,

1410
01:19:53.520 --> 01:19:56.640
you'll a lot of the events in this book have

1411
01:19:56.840 --> 01:19:59.479
major impacts about how people say. So I think there's

1412
01:19:59.479 --> 01:20:02.199
just more to hell and that that's the big idea

1413
01:20:03.079 --> 01:20:04.319
that I think I want to explore more.

1414
01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:10.479
Jason excellent, Well, before we go, you already mentioned your

1415
01:20:11.239 --> 01:20:14.560
your website. Can you say what your website is again?

1416
01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:16.760
I'll put it in the show notes for everyone to

1417
01:20:16.840 --> 01:20:20.039
go and click on if they want, But can you

1418
01:20:20.039 --> 01:20:25.279
say what your your website's address is again and where

1419
01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:27.000
else they can find you online.

1420
01:20:28.079 --> 01:20:33.199
Yes, so my website is Mr Leonard author dot com.

1421
01:20:33.279 --> 01:20:37.880
Leonard is l E O N A R D. You

1422
01:20:37.920 --> 01:20:39.960
can find my my website there. It has links to

1423
01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:43.399
all my socials including I'm probably most active on Twitter,

1424
01:20:43.439 --> 01:20:47.359
although not super active, but I'm there at Monks at

1425
01:20:47.479 --> 01:20:51.199
Monks on the Moon. I think it's there's an underscore

1426
01:20:51.279 --> 01:20:54.960
between the and moon, and I believe that that's my

1427
01:20:55.039 --> 01:20:59.000
Instagram handle it. Well, so you can follow me in

1428
01:20:59.039 --> 01:21:02.319
those places. Uh, you can sign up for my newsletter

1429
01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:06.760
on my website. And Uh, in terms of the book itself,

1430
01:21:06.920 --> 01:21:09.399
you can it's at it should be at all retailers.

1431
01:21:09.479 --> 01:21:12.479
It's it's I think it's published everywhere. It's not just

1432
01:21:12.520 --> 01:21:15.399
on Amazon currently. It's in the Kindle Unlimited, so if

1433
01:21:15.399 --> 01:21:18.840
you have Kindle Unlimited, you can get it that way. Uh.

1434
01:21:18.880 --> 01:21:22.079
And then there's the audio book, which is what Jason experienced.

1435
01:21:22.119 --> 01:21:24.720
And so for the audio production, I really wanted to

1436
01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:29.720
I wanted to do it at the next level I had.

1437
01:21:30.039 --> 01:21:32.960
I really I had this theory that I see everyone

1438
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:35.560
walking around with AirPods in you know, whether it's the

1439
01:21:35.640 --> 01:21:39.239
teenager walking from school to the cop directing traffic to

1440
01:21:39.279 --> 01:21:42.760
the banker, like cleaning ladies, like everyone has AirPods in

1441
01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:46.520
all the time, including myself, and so much as being

1442
01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:48.239
consumed through audio that I just wanted to make the

1443
01:21:48.279 --> 01:21:50.640
audio product top notch. So I actually teamed up with

1444
01:21:50.680 --> 01:21:54.439
Jeff Hayes, who did a book called Dungeon Crawler Carl Uh.

1445
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:57.399
He turned that into audio and that's been a smashing success.

1446
01:21:57.439 --> 01:22:01.279
They've you know, that's that's the that's a whole other

1447
01:22:01.399 --> 01:22:07.399
saga of just extreme extreme, just good fortune and well

1448
01:22:07.399 --> 01:22:11.359
deserved credit that's going in that direction. So the same

1449
01:22:11.399 --> 01:22:14.279
guy who did this hit Dungeon Crawler Carl, this hit series,

1450
01:22:14.319 --> 01:22:16.720
did my book, and I think the audio product's great,

1451
01:22:16.720 --> 01:22:20.720
and we actually put it online so you could listen

1452
01:22:20.840 --> 01:22:25.199
to my audiobook on YouTube if you'd like, by going

1453
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:29.640
to sound Booth Theater their YouTube channel, they're called sound

1454
01:22:29.680 --> 01:22:33.359
Booth Theater, and you could listen to there's an interview

1455
01:22:33.560 --> 01:22:35.720
on the file when you click on it. There's an

1456
01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:38.039
interview in the beginning, or you can just skip ahead

1457
01:22:38.079 --> 01:22:41.560
to the book itself, and starting tomorrow, which will be

1458
01:22:42.079 --> 01:22:45.840
June ninth, twenty twenty five, the whole thing will have

1459
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:49.079
been published online in four parts. So if you want

1460
01:22:49.119 --> 01:22:51.199
to listen to the book and you know you don't

1461
01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:54.279
want to send me money, that's fine, but I go

1462
01:22:54.359 --> 01:22:56.359
live it. You have to. If you don't buy the book,

1463
01:22:56.399 --> 01:22:59.079
you have to like it and share it. That's the deal.

1464
01:22:59.399 --> 01:23:02.079
But you can experience the audiobook if that's your flavor.

1465
01:23:02.199 --> 01:23:05.560
And that's what Jason listened to. And I love to

1466
01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:07.520
send people in that direction because I think they did

1467
01:23:07.560 --> 01:23:09.760
such a good job that it's probably my favorite format

1468
01:23:09.800 --> 01:23:10.239
of the book.

1469
01:23:10.439 --> 01:23:13.239
Absolutely, I have to agree. I listened to a lot

1470
01:23:13.279 --> 01:23:19.119
of audiobooks and this one was definitely. The production of

1471
01:23:19.159 --> 01:23:23.279
it is like top tier. It's one of the most

1472
01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:26.960
entertaining audiobooks I've listened to. I'd put it up with

1473
01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:30.680
like Project Hail Mary.

1474
01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:33.880
That's great, that's such a huge that.

1475
01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:38.119
Audiobook, it was just absolutely beautiful, And this one is

1476
01:23:38.199 --> 01:23:41.359
so close to that. It's like just as Good's. It's

1477
01:23:41.520 --> 01:23:44.640
got a series, Like, Yeah, definitely go check it out

1478
01:23:44.680 --> 01:23:47.800
because the audiobook is fantastic. You're not going to be sorry.

1479
01:23:48.520 --> 01:23:50.479
Yeah, And you don't have an excuse. It's on YouTube,

1480
01:23:50.479 --> 01:23:53.399
so you're already on on YouTube. You're listening to this listen,

1481
01:23:53.399 --> 01:23:55.520
so you can just click on a different thing after

1482
01:23:55.520 --> 01:23:57.960
we're done and go right into the book. You just

1483
01:23:58.039 --> 01:23:59.960
have to like it and share it. That's the only

1484
01:24:00.239 --> 01:24:02.359
thing I ask if you listen to it for free.

1485
01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:07.199
All right, Well, thank you Michael for coming on and

1486
01:24:07.640 --> 01:24:10.199
talking about this book with me, and thank you for

1487
01:24:11.560 --> 01:24:15.520
you know, slinging some questions your way.

1488
01:24:15.479 --> 01:24:18.399
Anytime, Jason, and thanks so much for taking a chance

1489
01:24:18.720 --> 01:24:20.800
and reading my book and then having me on your show.

1490
01:24:20.840 --> 01:24:23.520
I know it's not exactly in the middle of the

1491
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:26.239
bell curve of what you normally do, but I really

1492
01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:28.560
enjoyed talking to you, and I'm really thrilled you got

1493
01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:31.560
to participate in the book, and thank you very much.

1494
01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:32.520
I really appreciate it.

1495
01:24:37.359 --> 01:24:40.840
Well, there you have it, my conversation with m r Leonard.

1496
01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:47.279
Please email me at Weirdreads podcast at gmail dot com

1497
01:24:47.359 --> 01:24:49.359
and let me know what you thought. It was an

1498
01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:56.039
interesting conversation and an interesting experience challenging both what I

1499
01:24:56.159 --> 01:25:01.880
believe and hopefully challenging Mr Leonard what he believes. It

1500
01:25:01.960 --> 01:25:05.000
was just fun too, a fun discussion on what I

1501
01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:07.760
found to be an interesting book. I think if you're

1502
01:25:07.920 --> 01:25:14.760
if you're into reading science fiction of today, I think

1503
01:25:15.119 --> 01:25:20.239
despite the Christian aspect of this book, the Catholic Angle.

1504
01:25:21.439 --> 01:25:23.479
I think you might enjoy it. It has a lot

1505
01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:26.880
of things that we talked about, and if you listen

1506
01:25:26.920 --> 01:25:30.279
to this entire conversation then you'll know what I mean.

1507
01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:32.359
You may have picked out some of the things that

1508
01:25:32.439 --> 01:25:38.760
you would enjoy in reading this book, and I would

1509
01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:43.760
be interested in your thoughts what you thought, so shoot

1510
01:25:43.800 --> 01:25:46.359
me an email. And if you want to support the show,

1511
01:25:46.399 --> 01:25:50.359
you can do so very easily by just going to

1512
01:25:50.439 --> 01:25:55.079
Apple Podcasts, finding the show there and rating it and

1513
01:25:55.159 --> 01:25:59.560
giving me a review there, or giving Weird Reads a

1514
01:25:59.600 --> 01:26:04.359
review there. I would I would highly appreciate that that

1515
01:26:04.359 --> 01:26:08.119
that would make Apple more willing to spread the show

1516
01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:11.359
and to share it with other like minded people, and

1517
01:26:11.399 --> 01:26:14.600
that would help the show to grow. If you want

1518
01:26:14.600 --> 01:26:18.079
to help me with with with your money, your hard

1519
01:26:18.159 --> 01:26:21.319
earned money, you can join the Patreon. I have three

1520
01:26:21.439 --> 01:26:27.800
tiers there and they all offer some interesting selections like

1521
01:26:27.920 --> 01:26:31.399
ad free. You may have noticed I've been putting ads

1522
01:26:31.439 --> 01:26:34.159
on these lately, and the reason why I do that

1523
01:26:34.319 --> 01:26:38.560
is because it costs money to UH for me to

1524
01:26:38.600 --> 01:26:41.840
produce these and to put them out to you, and

1525
01:26:43.119 --> 01:26:46.359
I wanna I want to continue doing it and it

1526
01:26:46.479 --> 01:26:50.720
helps when people offer me their their change. Of course,

1527
01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:54.760
it's not necessary, but if you are willing to to

1528
01:26:54.840 --> 01:26:58.279
separate yourself with some of your hard earned money in

1529
01:26:58.479 --> 01:27:03.239
support of the show, I am gratefully appreciative. So head

1530
01:27:03.239 --> 01:27:07.319
on over to where what is the address? You know?

1531
01:27:07.399 --> 01:27:12.239
I wish I could remember these things, but go to

1532
01:27:12.319 --> 01:27:18.439
patreon dot com, forward slash, Jason underscore White, or just search.

1533
01:27:19.479 --> 01:27:24.279
I believe you can find it by searching weird reads

1534
01:27:24.439 --> 01:27:30.239
on the Patreon. If not, maybe just Jason White. And

1535
01:27:30.399 --> 01:27:33.680
that that wraps up the show for this week. Thank

1536
01:27:33.720 --> 01:27:38.439
you for listening. As a bit of an update, I

1537
01:27:38.479 --> 01:27:43.319
am going on a bit of a summer hiatus. I

1538
01:27:44.319 --> 01:27:47.960
you will see a few episodes here and there come

1539
01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:51.199
out during the summer. In fact, because this is a

1540
01:27:51.199 --> 01:27:54.079
bi weekly show, you may not notice too much of

1541
01:27:54.239 --> 01:27:59.680
an absence from me. But I am dealing with some

1542
01:27:59.720 --> 01:28:07.279
health issues and nothing serious, hopefully. And I've also you know,

1543
01:28:07.439 --> 01:28:11.159
summer changes for me. When summer comes along, my work

1544
01:28:11.359 --> 01:28:15.279
area becomes different. But I've organized myself. Hopefully it works

1545
01:28:15.319 --> 01:28:19.239
out where I will not only get extra time off

1546
01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:22.319
this year, but I won't have to do a lot

1547
01:28:22.359 --> 01:28:27.600
of those ten hour ruling shifts that I had to

1548
01:28:27.680 --> 01:28:31.560
do last year during the summer, so stay tuned for that.

1549
01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:35.119
If nothing changes on that aspect, then I might not

1550
01:28:35.279 --> 01:28:39.279
disappear at all. So thank you for listening, and until

1551
01:28:39.359 --> 01:28:43.640
next time, keep being weird my friends, because being weird

1552
01:28:43.880 --> 01:28:50.119
is very important these days. And stay safe and we'll

1553
01:28:50.159 --> 01:29:04.039
catch you guys on the next podcast. Li