June 2, 2025

055 - Todd Keisling Interview – Writing Dread, Grief, and Horror in The Sundowner’s Dance

055 - Todd Keisling Interview – Writing Dread, Grief, and Horror in The Sundowner’s Dance
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Season 2

In this episode of Weird Reads, host Jason White interviews acclaimed horror author Todd Keisling about his haunting new novel, The Sundowner’s Dance.
They discuss the book’s themes of grief, dread, and identity, how Todd approaches writing cosmic horror, and what it’s like publishing in the indie horror scene today.

Some of the authors mentioned for you to check out"
Katherine Silva
Amanda Headlee
Robert Ottone

Check out Todd Keisling's website: https://www.toddkeisling.com/ 

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You're listening to the Weird Reader podcast, an extension of

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Jason's Weird Reads found on YouTube.

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Welcome, Welcome to Weird Reads.

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I'm Jason White, your host, and this week I am

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talking to somebody I've talked to before, but it's been

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a very long time since we've talked. That is Todd Keesling.

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Todd Keesling is a two time Bramstoker Award nominated writer

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known for such titles as Devil's Creek, scan Lines, Cold Black,

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and Infinite and his latest novel, The Sundowners Dance. Two

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of his previous works received University of Kentucky All's Wald

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Research and Creativity Prize for the for Creative Writing in

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two thousand and two and two thousand and five. Additionally,

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his novel The Luminal Man was a finalist for the

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Indie Book Award and Horror Suspense in twenty thirteen. He

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resides Pennsylvania with his family. Welcome to the show, Todd.

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Thanks for having me man all the time.

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It has like I was looking well. The last time

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we spoke was was for the Darkness d Wells podcast,

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and I think it was probably around twenty seventeen, somewhere

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around there. I can't look it up because it's it's dead, like, oh,

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there's only about ten episodes that have survived.

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Yeah. Happened since then? Yeah absolutely.

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But I think the last time we talked, if from

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my memory serves me correctly, I think we were discussing

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something that you were doing with Crystal Lake Publishing at

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the time.

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Yeah, yeah, something like that. Anyway, that would have been

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ugly little things my first collection.

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Oh maybe it was that. Yeah, yeah, I could see

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it being that. Yeah. Absolutely. So how have you been

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since then? It's been a long road.

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Yeah, it has. A lot has happened in since the

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Crystal Lake days. I'm good, you know, as with anybody,

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I think, you know, ups and downs, but it's been

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a wild ride for sure. Yeah.

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You've released quite a bit since then, Yeah, quite a bit.

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I mean you have your second short story collection, which

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is called Black and Infinite, that came out a couple

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of years ago or it was twenty twenty three. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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So how has that been doing?

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Like, uh, well, it was doing well until I had

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to pull the books from Cemetery Dance.

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Oh right, yeah, I forget I forgot all of.

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Them that Yeah. For the for the listeners, who aren't familiar.

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I had some issues with the publisher of Cemetery Dance

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and we decided to part ways.

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And this was fairly recently, wasn't it.

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Uh, Yeah, it was a little over a month ago,

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I think. But the good news is that my Cemetery

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Dance titles, which are Devil's Creak and Cole Black and Infinite,

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already have a new home. Bad Hand Books will be

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publishing them in the spring of next year.

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Excellent. Well, congratulations on finding a new home for them.

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Thank you, and I wish you the best of luck

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in regards to that. I was listening in preparation for

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this interview. I was listening to a couple of interviews

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and whatnot, and I remember what stuck out, and one

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thing was that you said that you get excited about

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people reading your new work. And I had to wonder, like,

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do you ever feel nervous too, like maybe people won't

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understand what.

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Like especially different? Yeah. Yeah, I was super nervous about

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the Sundowners Dance. The week before it released. I was

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a nervous wreck. And I was just so stressed out,

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not just because of the release, because of you know,

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personal things going on. And it was a huge relief

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when it released, and people have been reacting so positively

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to it, and some people are saying it's the best

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thing I've written yet. And trust me, I was nervous

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as hell because it is vastly different from my other stuff.

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And I mean I get nervous before any release because

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you never know how people are going to react. It's like, well,

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will people get it? Will they not? Is this the

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one that's going to break out of you know, the

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indie world and get readers from outside that sphere. And

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that's always the goal, is to just reach as many

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peop pole as possible. And you know, I've been pretty

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fortunate in that, you know, most of my work is

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generally reviewed fairly. Well, I haven't had a miss yet,

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if you can call it that. I'm sure that will

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happen at some point in the future, because it's you know,

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not everyone other than is going to be a banger

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no matter how hard I tried. Yeah, but with this

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one in particular, it has continued to surprise me as

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the you know, days go on from release. Yeah.

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The reason why I ask is because I was writing

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way back in twenty ten and twelve and I released

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a short story collection, and then I kind of took

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like an eight year hiatus because I was working this

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job that just sucked all my energy and my life

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from me. And I finally got out of that job.

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Now I'm writing again, and I've released a couple of

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things since switching jobs. But I have a couple more

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things coming out that are vastly different, and I'm afraid

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of how audience reaction will be to that, because like

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the other stuff was fun, like nasty, gory horror, the

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next two that I plan on releasing anyway, are pretty

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serious and and maybe a little more well written.

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If that makes any sense. Yeah.

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Yeah, you write a lot of short stories as well.

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Do you have a preference. Do you prefer writing short

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stories or do you like writing longer stories?

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So I don't feel like I read a lot of

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short stories, but you know, I appreciate the moote of

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confidence there. I I like short fiction for the gratification

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of you know, I only had to spend a week

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putting this thing together and it's done, or a draft

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of it's done meanwhile, versus long form stuff that can

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take months or years. But so I like short stories

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in that respect, but writing short stories is infinitely harder,

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I think, than long form because you only have like

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a set amount of you know, word real estate. Two

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build the world, you know, and bring your characters to

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life and have a plot that actually you know, can

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get in and get out and it can you know,

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in that confinement and have it be punchy and you know,

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hopefully knock the reader's socks off. Whereas novel you have

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time and space to develop everything. Yeah, and so there

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are aspects of writing short stories that I like for

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the brevity of it. But everything I write always has

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a bigger picture in my head, and writing novels allows

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me to indulge that more so, I I think, I

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I enjoy writing long form, I don't enjoy writing short

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form as much, but I find that the result is

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often better than my long.

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Form as in like more, as in like more satisfying.

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Uh. I mean, short stories are an exercise of basically

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like taking yourself and putting you on your a game.

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Whether you like it or not, you don't really have

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a choice because every word matters. Whereas you know, writing

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a novel, you your words have more time and room

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to breathe, and you can you know, refine that and

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whittle that down. Short stories, you don't necessarily always have

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that luxury because usually if I'm writing a short story,

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it's because someone asked me to or I agreed to

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for a publication, and you know, I don't have a

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huge turnaround time. I don't have, you know, I would

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say turnaround time is probably the biggest thing for me

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because I tend to take years to construct stories in

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my head. And like we'll get into that with Sundowners

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and stuff. But you know, Devil's Creek is another example

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where you know, I had the idea for Devil's Creaking,

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they had for like over a decade, and you know,

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it took years for me to get to the point

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where I felt confident enough that I could write it.

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Short fiction, on the other hand, is where you know

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an editor might come to you and say, hey, will

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you write something for me and you didn't six weeks. Yeah,

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And it's like it's a different mindset, but it also

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forces you to kind of be more selective in your

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language and how the story is told in everything, and

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it's a different frame of mind that is more difficult

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for me to get into, I think. But you know

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that's from the technical perspective, you know, as the as

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an author, you know, I'll do either one, Like I

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can switch, you know, to to write short stuff for

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long form. But you know, if if I had my preference,

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I would probably just do the long form stuff. But

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short fiction is a nice little exercise, yea, to kind

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of sharpen you a little bit, you know, for the

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longer stuff.

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I like what you said there about taking a long

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time to write a longer piece of story because you

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have the idea. I don't know if it's similar to

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what I go through because I'll have an idea in

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my head and I don't know exactly maybe where it

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needs to go when I first attempt to write it

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and you get part way through, maybe you finish the manuscript,

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but something feels off about it, so you keep approaching it.

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And do you do that too, like where you just

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keep coming back to a story that just doesn't feel

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like it's working until you get it right.

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Yeah. Absolutely. I have folders in my files for stories

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that are still unfinished that, you know. I mean, Sundowners

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Dance began like that. You know. There were multiple times

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where I tried to write Devil's Creek and if it

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wasn't working, I would just put it aside, save it

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for later, and come back to it when I felt ready.

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So yeah, I absolutely do that. You know, I don't.

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I've never not done that, I think because it's I

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might think that I'm ready for a story, but the

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story's not ready yet. Yeah, that's a good way of

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putting it. I like that.

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I remember when you were writing Devil's Creek. She used

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to post updates about it on Facebook a lot, and

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I remember you kept putting the word count so far

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in it, and I remember you'd be like, Man, this

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one's getting long.

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It's gonna kill me. My My professional goal for the

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rest of my life is to never write anything as

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long as Devil's Freak? Did you did I.

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Have? I'll be going back to that actually a bit,

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because it kind of ties into some of the questions

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I have about the Sundowners Dance. But before we get

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into the Sundowners Dance, I do want to go into

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a little bit about your Southland mythos. Can you tell

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us what the Southland mythos are?

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So I haven't actually worked up like a pitch for

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what the Southland is, and you know, so what I'm

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I say that to say that, I don't have any

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sexy way of you know, putting it, you know, in

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one or two sentences. So this is going to be

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a rambly answer, and I apologize. I like grand So

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the Southland mythos is my sandbox that I've created for myself.

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It's stories that predominantly exist in the Appalachian region of

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the United States, Eastern US, primarily Kentucky, some Tennessee, West Virginia, Pennsylvania.

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I'm not really as familiar with the Carolinas, so I

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haven't gone there yet in fiction, but there is a

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story that I wrote for an anthology several years ago

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that is it's also the first story in Cold Black

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an infinite called Midnight in the Southland, and it's about

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a It introduces a radio personality and along the same

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lines as like Art Bell from Coast to Coast am.

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His name is Gus Guthrie. He is a radio DJ

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or was. He passed away in two thousand and two

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and so also the nineties in Kentucky and the surrounding regions,

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he discussed and took calls from people who have experienced

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strange things in the area, and he basically referred to

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the phenomena as the Southland. So on one level, that's

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what the Southland is, as it comes from this radio

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program called Midnight in the Southland. But in the larger

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scheme of things, it is my my contribution to a

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larger cosmic horror pantheon, namely Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos as a

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thought and you know, all of his gods and stuff

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that he created in his fiction. I grew up reading Lovecraft,

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but I could never relate to the setting because it

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was all in New England that I'd never been out

228
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of Kentucky before. So I started building this sandbox that

229
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.519
I could base my fiction in with its own set

230
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of rules and pantheon of gods, but it is adjacent

231
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to Lovecraft's own mythos. They exist in the same universe, essentially,

232
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thank you, Thank you, public domain. So that's kind of

233
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my in my head, that's a bit of what the

234
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:09.320
Southland myth thos is. It's, you know, all these different

235
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stories that are all in this in the in the region,

236
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and that all these strange things that happen in said

237
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.759
stories are can be traced back to something I can't

238
00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.919
tell you yet because it would be a massive spoiler

239
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.919
for what I have planned down the road. Awesome.

240
00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:31.840
Yeah, Now, how did you develop the mythos? Was it

241
00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.559
like you found some similarities that kept repeating in your work.

242
00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:42.360
Or uh, it was an accident. Yeah, Like Devil's Creek

243
00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.879
is the centerpiece of the mythos currently. But I didn't

244
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.200
know it was called the Southland myth Thos when I

245
00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:54.480
wrote that book Nice Midnight in the Southland is what

246
00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:59.279
really kind of brought it to life a little bit,

247
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:05.960
and calling it the Southland Mythos just made sense. But no,

248
00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:10.960
it wasn't planned at the time. But now now that

249
00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.279
I have a better grasp of what it is and

250
00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:20.960
how everything connects. Everything I'm doing going forward, you know

251
00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.799
will exist in the Southland Mythos of some kind in

252
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:25.839
some form or fashion.

253
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.559
That's really cool. I also like how it's kind of

254
00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:34.759
related to lovecraft mythos. How do you create your own

255
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:39.599
without sort of not copying what Lovecraft did?

256
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:51.200
I wish I had a good answer. It's mostly just imagination.

257
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:57.960
I you know, I think about what I would imagine

258
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.920
a cosmic entity would look like, or how it would

259
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.279
operate or why it would operate here, And I also

260
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.400
try to figure out ways that it would make sense

261
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:14.960
for it to be in Appalachia. And for me, the

262
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:20.279
biggest connection there is because Appalachia is like oldest mountain

263
00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:25.480
range on the planet. It predates fossil record, like it's not.

264
00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.440
It's so the mountains in Appalachia are round it because

265
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they've been weathered over time. And you know, if anything

266
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.680
were to any cosmic entity would be here, it would

267
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.319
most likely be you know, have something to do with

268
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.000
the Appalachian Mountain Range.

269
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.880
Yeah, absolutely. I mean there's already like a lot of

270
00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.039
weird stories that are attached to that Appalachia, you know,

271
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.599
history and even current events.

272
00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.559
Yeah. So, you know, I look at Appalachia much like

273
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:04.480
Lovecraft looked at Antarctica, for you know, at the Mountains

274
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:11.920
of Madness. It's this ancient area that has a lot

275
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of history and is foreign to a lot of people.

276
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.599
But differences. It's not a you know, it's not a

277
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:27.359
desert of ice. It is a lush, vibrant region where

278
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:35.640
weird ship always happens, where the earth is sour maybe

279
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:37.839
at some part.

280
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.240
Now, can you tell us what the Sun Downers Dance

281
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.519
is about? And how does Sundowners Dance fit into your methods?

282
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:53.720
Sure, so the Sundowners Dance. We pitched that as the

283
00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.039
movie Cocoon meets Lovecrafts The Color out of Space. That's

284
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:04.839
the elevator pitch. It is the story of a recent

285
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:13.559
retired widower who is mourning the loss of his wife.

286
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:19.400
He decides to downsize after he retires and to get

287
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:21.400
away from a lot of the memories in their house

288
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:24.079
they had together, so he buys a place in this

289
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:30.319
over fifty five retirement community up in the Poconos called

290
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:37.440
Fairview Acres. And it's weird for him from the get go.

291
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:43.119
He hates his neighbors. They're all very they're not acting

292
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.640
their age, so to speak. They are partying every night.

293
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:53.480
Hears footsteps crossing his rooftop every night, and it gets

294
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.480
stranger and stranger and far more sinister as the story

295
00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:02.160
goes along. Can't tell you how it ties into the

296
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.440
myth though, because that's a major spoiler.

297
00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:13.119
Yeah, before we continue, I do want to say that

298
00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.440
I thoroughly enjoyed this book.

299
00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:18.839
Thank you. It's it's very well done.

300
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:24.559
I really enjoy reading horror stories though with elderly protagonists,

301
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.720
and I'm assuming you do as.

302
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.240
Well, because you really nabled it. I feel thank you,

303
00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:30.839
thank you.

304
00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:36.359
Now some understands was supposed to be a short story,

305
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:41.319
but it kept getting longer on you, uf you continued

306
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.920
to resist writing it. From my understanding, what was it

307
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:46.000
that kept you writing it?

308
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:56.319
So let's touch upon the resistance aspect first that because

309
00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:02.319
that leads into why I kept writing it. Initially, I

310
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:07.440
started writing it like it's not too long after I started,

311
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.720
after I had finished up to the first draft the

312
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.759
Devil's Creek, and that's the longest thing I've ever written,

313
00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:16.799
and I don't want to write anything that long ever again.

314
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.759
So writing a short story felt like a good palette cleanser,

315
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.480
you know. Yeah. And then I started developing these characters

316
00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:31.240
and this neighborhood of people, and I realized that shit,

317
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.240
this wants to be longer. Put pumped the brakes, put

318
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.160
this in a folder, let's work on something else. And

319
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:46.319
I went back to it initially because I got invited

320
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.640
to an anthology where it would have been a good

321
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.160
fit if it could be contained in five thousand words.

322
00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.759
So I initially went back to it too, you know,

323
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:02.160
some years later, with the hope of salaging like the

324
00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:06.559
seed of the story and just make turning it into

325
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:10.680
a short story. But as I kept reading it and

326
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.799
revisiting some of the you know, those familiar scenes and

327
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:18.400
thinking about the characters again, I realized, Okay, this, this

328
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:23.640
is going to be a novella at least. So I

329
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:28.359
pursued it under that, you know, with that intense Okay,

330
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.759
this is a novella. I'm going to write a novella.

331
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:32.799
It's only going to be a novella. It's not going

332
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:39.000
to be longer than forty thousand worms. And then while

333
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:45.839
writing it, my wife had a cancer scare and there

334
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:49.119
was a lot of a lot of things were uncertain,

335
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:54.039
and I got really depressed, and I was kind of

336
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:58.680
clinging to the book, to what became the book in

337
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:03.559
order to deal with a lot of the scariest things

338
00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:05.720
that we, you know, we were having to go through

339
00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:10.079
while she was waiting on you know, biopsy results, and

340
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:15.160
you know, the general silence that you wait from you know,

341
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:20.279
you live in between the time that you understand that

342
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.359
that you have something in your body that has to

343
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.519
be biopsy until the moment that you get the call

344
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:27.559
and you you know, get the results of you know,

345
00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.359
said biopsy. So for about two and a half weeks,

346
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:40.400
I was I was in it. I was pretty caught

347
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:45.160
up in my own fears, and I had the book

348
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:49.839
to keep me anchored to reality. I think if not,

349
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:54.599
I probably would have had a nervous breakdown, to be honest. Yeah,

350
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.880
it was a tough time, and but that's why when

351
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.319
it crossed that line and I realized, Okay, this isn't

352
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:08.160
a novel of this actually is a book. Yeah, you know,

353
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:13.200
I kind of embrace it because it helped. It gave

354
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:17.279
me an outlet for all the multuous things that were,

355
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.440
you know, swirling around in my brain at the time. Yeah.

356
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.079
You mentioned that in your afterward, and I'm happy to

357
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.119
say that things turned out Okay, Yes.

358
00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:32.519
Yes, she just had her screening a couple of months ago.

359
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:35.079
She's all clear for the year. She goes back next

360
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:40.359
year or another screening, and yeah, Awkwood and everything's fine. Yeah.

361
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.680
Did you find because you said that it helped anchor

362
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.880
you and keep you going, did you find that it

363
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:50.839
was also sort of maybe a dark meditation on what

364
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.920
would happen if things were.

365
00:25:52.880 --> 00:26:01.200
To go south? Yeah? Absolutely, it It was my writing.

366
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.799
The book was my way of processing everything and coming

367
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:09.720
to terms with everything. Yeah.

368
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:13.440
In your Sundowners Dance, you also mentioned, and you mentioned

369
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.759
here in the interview, that it was meant to be

370
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:21.039
a short story, and you started working on it soon

371
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.160
after Devil's Creek, and then you put it away, and

372
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:25.759
then you went back to it because you said that

373
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:29.000
you weren't ready to start another novel yet. So that

374
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:31.160
made me think, because I've experienced this too, do you

375
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:35.079
find that writing novels exhausts your creativity sometimes?

376
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:42.640
Yeah? Absolutely. I spent all of last year writing a novel,

377
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:52.000
and I was, let me think about this. I finished that.

378
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:58.079
I wrote a really short story for Weird Tales. I

379
00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:02.240
wrote that story at the very end of last year,

380
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:08.200
and then I didn't write anything until like March of

381
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.200
this year. I basically had three months where I just

382
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:17.200
had to recuperate. And that's h I find it. It

383
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:21.319
gets harder every time I do it. And that's that's

384
00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:24.559
a me thing. I know some authors who you know,

385
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:27.559
it's it's not difficult at all. They can sit down

386
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.079
and crank out, you know, a story every couple of

387
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:35.319
days if they really wanted to. But for me, I

388
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.839
have to be older, I get especially I have to

389
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.200
consider my mental battery.

390
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:41.480
Uh.

391
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:44.480
You know, in the time since we last talked Jason.

392
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:46.759
I mean, I find out I'm on the spectrum. I

393
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:51.920
have ADHD, I have severe depression, I have severe anxiety.

394
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.000
You know, I have all these things. And I had

395
00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:00.480
to start thinking about I had to start thinking about

396
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:05.680
the time I spend working on something, on a single thing,

397
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.759
I have to consider, you know, I have to be

398
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:11.799
more cognizant of how much shame I'm spending, because there's

399
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.759
always a toll I have to pay. So if I'm

400
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.160
focused on a single creative project for say six hours

401
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.240
in a day, well I'm gonna need almost equal amount

402
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:27.000
of time to come down from that, you know. I

403
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:29.240
gone are the days where I could just you know,

404
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.160
work until two or three in the morning and then

405
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.160
go right to sleep. Yeah, if I do that, now,

406
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:37.519
I'm going to be awake for two or three hours

407
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:43.240
trying to wind my brain down before I can rest,

408
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.720
and it just throws the rest, you know, the following

409
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.839
day completely off the rails, you know. And so when

410
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.680
I say it gets harder or the older I get,

411
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:55.839
it's because of that. Yeah, it's because you know, I

412
00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.559
have to think about, all right, if I'm going to today,

413
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:02.720
how long do I need to write? You know, how

414
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.680
how long do I want to write for? And then

415
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:07.960
I kind of have to plant other things around that,

416
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.920
not necessarily around the writing itself, but the recuperation after

417
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:14.079
being created.

418
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:19.240
What what do you what do you do to recuperate

419
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.079
and replenish?

420
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:24.279
Uh, Sometimes I'll take a nap. Sometimes I'll play a

421
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:28.000
video game, watch a movie, go outside, take a walk,

422
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:37.039
anything that isn't creative, Like it's summertime now, so I'll

423
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.000
go outside and mow the grass, you know, something very

424
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.839
autonomous that just gives me time to process my thoughts.

425
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.839
So do you find that your thoughts are empty? Like

426
00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.319
in the creative end, like you're not consciously thinking about things,

427
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.359
But when you go back to it, the answer maybe

428
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:58.559
that you're looking for is there.

429
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:04.160
Not necessary empty per se. It's like I kind of

430
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.839
have to divorce myself from the world that I was

431
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.599
living in. Makes sense, you know, I kind of have

432
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.680
to give myself distance. I need to stop thinking about

433
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:19.799
things in terms of plot threads, and you know, because

434
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.039
it's it's it's strange feeling to go from you know,

435
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.440
living and breathing this world that you are creating with words,

436
00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:30.119
and then going out into the real world and you

437
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.960
start looking at you know, observing and start connecting dots

438
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.960
that aren't really there. It's almost like, oh, I wonder

439
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.039
how that got there. Well, it was probably this, which

440
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:42.359
you know was caused by this and this, and that's

441
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:46.480
that's the ADHD in my brain. I think that's it

442
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:53.000
starts manifesting plot threads that aren't there, and you know,

443
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:55.680
it's it's an easy way for me to spiral if

444
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.960
I do that, so I try to. It's no different

445
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:04.039
than like when I do when I do in person events. Now,

446
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:07.680
you know, I can put on the mask and wear

447
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.680
the stud for a few days at most, but then

448
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:13.160
I'm gonna be useless for a week after that. It's

449
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.720
a lot of time where I have to like be

450
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:20.680
alone in the dark and just reduce sensory you know,

451
00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:26.799
input as much as possible. I don't know, it's like

452
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:31.400
a it's a good question, because I don't I've never

453
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.000
really had to think about it in those terms before.

454
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:38.000
But mm hmm. It's almost like you have you know,

455
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:40.759
when you're done, you're just a bundle of raw nerves

456
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.000
and you kind of just have to ease yourself back

457
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.759
into your skin a little bit. Yeah, I can kind

458
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:50.920
of identify with that, to be honest with you.

459
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:56.640
Another interesting note in in.

460
00:31:56.599 --> 00:31:57.200
The Uh.

461
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:06.240
In the the Afterward is that this Sundowners Dance was

462
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:10.519
meant to be a collaborative effort with Chad Lutsky, which I, yeah,

463
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:14.839
no idea about until I read that. How did that happen?

464
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:20.599
And then not happen? We like he had been looking for,

465
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:24.359
you know, someone to write something with. He approached me

466
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:27.680
about it. I said, hey, I've got this. I guess

467
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:31.400
this might have been like twenty later in twenty eighteen.

468
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.599
It was after I had put the story away initially

469
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.000
and he approached me, and I said, hey, I've got this,

470
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:40.599
you know, tell me what you think. And he read

471
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:42.880
what I had. It was about eleven thousand yards at

472
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:47.279
the time. He had some suggestions on how to approach

473
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:53.039
it as a duo. So we basically started over. And

474
00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:58.440
I realized at that point in time, like, there are

475
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:01.200
certain aspects of you know, to a story I need

476
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:03.759
to know before I start writing it, and Chad is

477
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:10.160
entirely a panther and it just wasn't going to work. So, like,

478
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:12.480
you know, I read a little bit of what he

479
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:17.319
had and I wasn't really feeling the direction. No, shade

480
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:19.599
the chat. He's a fantastic writer, and I wish you

481
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:23.799
would write more. But at the time, you know, I

482
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:27.640
just I've never collaborated with anybody. I still haven't, I

483
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:31.519
probably never will because you know, I'm very particular about

484
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:36.720
my process. Yeah, so that's why it never happened. And

485
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.599
I also just wasn't in the right headspace at the time.

486
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:43.759
I think if we had, it would have worked better,

487
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:46.599
as if we had come up with the idea together.

488
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.119
And I think the project was probably doomed from the

489
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.519
start because I we were working on something that I

490
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.880
had already started, so in my head I had preconceived

491
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:04.359
notions about where it should go. So you can fast

492
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.440
forward to the anthology invite, and I was looking at

493
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.599
the story again. I it basically took the original manuscript

494
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:14.440
before you know, Chad and I got involved with it

495
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:20.079
and start you know, basically started over from there. Mm hmm.

496
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.400
Chad's awesome. He's been a guest on this show a

497
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.119
few times. It's been it's been a couple of years, though.

498
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:29.760
I need to get him back on. See you see

499
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:30.559
what he's doing.

500
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:33.159
All right.

501
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.559
Back to uh Sundowners Dance, I have to say I

502
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:40.960
love the protagonist Jerry because in all honesty, I feel

503
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.840
like I could end up like him, alone and elderly,

504
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:45.239
grumpy and grieving.

505
00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:51.960
Yeah, Jerry is pretty much a reflection of how I

506
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.000
saw myself in my seventies. If I'm if I don't

507
00:34:56.039 --> 00:35:01.000
have my wife to balance me out, yeah, just you know,

508
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:04.599
isolating and want to be left alone. Yeah.

509
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.840
I can totally identify with that because I can be

510
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:10.079
the same way. I often kind of shut out the

511
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.239
world and just crawl into my own head where you

512
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.639
know where sometimes I hide, maybe a little too long.

513
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:26.440
And I also felt that you nailed what grief and

514
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:31.719
depression is like. I also suffer from major depression. It's

515
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:35.800
something I've had all my life, and there may be

516
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:40.280
some other issues there that have gone undiagnosed, but it

517
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.400
costs a lot of money to go get diagnosis for

518
00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:46.559
those things, so I've just I've just left it. But

519
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:52.559
I also like how you nailed how it's like being introverted.

520
00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:02.960
Yeah, that was the aspects of introversion with Jerry. Uh,

521
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:08.559
it was more of a convenience to the story to

522
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:11.960
explain why he's you know, why he is the way

523
00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:16.000
he is. But once I made commitment to that character trait.

524
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:18.840
You know, I wanted to at least get it right.

525
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:25.199
And I'm well adept at being an introvert. And you know,

526
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:29.320
when people think of introverts, they think, oh, they just

527
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.239
don't want to be around people, and that that is true,

528
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.880
but they also don't understand and this gets lost in

529
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.239
translation a lot of times, especially in other media like

530
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.760
movies where you know somebody's alner. They never touch upon

531
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:51.039
the cost that must be paid by the introvert if

532
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:55.159
they are forced into a social situation. M Like, I

533
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:59.119
can be social. I can, you know, like I mentioned

534
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:03.880
at person events like conferences, I can do that, but

535
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:09.239
it's you know, there is a proportional amount of time

536
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:14.679
where I need to be alone after that event is over. Yeah, like,

537
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:18.880
I can't. The world becomes too much. It's like I've

538
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.679
become too sensitive to everything around me and I have

539
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.400
to pull back again. And you know it, it was

540
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:31.400
harder to understand when I was younger, when I didn't

541
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.480
have the context of everything that's going on up here.

542
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:39.880
You know, now I get it. You know, I have

543
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.280
a social battery and it depletes way faster than most

544
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:52.800
neurotypical people and that's never going to change. In fact,

545
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:54.599
it's probably going to get worse.

546
00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:58.800
I Yeah, I think honestly, it'll get worse because that's

547
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.039
what I've experienced. When when I was younger, I could, Uh,

548
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:04.760
I could I hang out with people a lot longer

549
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:08.000
and not feel as depleted as I do now. When

550
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:10.800
just hanging out in a room full of people that

551
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:14.039
I work with for an hour, how that exhausts me

552
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:17.280
and then I can't focus on anything after.

553
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:21.400
Honestly, don't know how I worked in corporate for as

554
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:25.800
long as I did. I've been free lanced one hundred

555
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:31.239
for five years now and the longer I'm you know,

556
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:34.760
working for myself. And whenever I look back and think like,

557
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:36.440
I don't know how the hell I did that for

558
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:42.519
thirteen years? Yeah, and it, you know, because no wonder

559
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:44.880
I was fucking depressed, No wonder I was, you know,

560
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:48.920
exhausted all the time because I was having to be

561
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.199
on for ten hours a day every day.

562
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:56.320
One thing I like about the job I have now

563
00:38:56.360 --> 00:39:00.519
I'm generally alone. Uh so that's great, But they're periods

564
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:02.920
of time where you're in that room of people and

565
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:07.000
uh and everyone's laughing and joking around, which is great,

566
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:09.480
but it has, like you said, a cost to it.

567
00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:10.760
Yeah.

568
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:16.760
Yeah, I I also want to talk about Arthur because

569
00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:21.960
I found him to be an interesting antagonist. Arthur, he

570
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:26.840
doesn't come across quite like in your face as a

571
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:35.239
bad guy. He just wants Jerry to like participate. He does, definitely. Yeah,

572
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.440
But but you know, I like how Jerry kind of

573
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:41.679
hates him right away, and and that makes the reader

574
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:43.719
kind of hate him too, Like I don't just like

575
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:47.800
when I was reading Arthur's nothing overly overly bad about

576
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:50.599
him when you first meet him, but you you know,

577
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.920
and your skill as a writer makes us suspect him anyway.

578
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:59.840
And I think it's because of Jerry. Yeah. So when

579
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:04.079
it came to coming up with an antagonist to Jerry,

580
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:07.840
you know, I needed a foil, someone who, like, what

581
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.880
is the worst possible person that an introvert could encounter,

582
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:21.679
A fucking extrovert, you know. Yeah, And there's nothing worse

583
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:27.320
than a very charismatic, extroverted person who has hell bent

584
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:33.920
on having you be included in something. Uh. And you

585
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:39.480
know I wanted that dynamic. I wanted that friction because

586
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:42.559
it was the only way, it was the perfect way

587
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.440
to meaning I thought It was the perfect way to

588
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:53.280
not just exacerbate the tension a little bit, but also

589
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:57.679
just to really put a contrast on how introverted Jerry

590
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:05.840
is in this story. So you know, that's that's kind

591
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:09.800
of where Arthur came from. He was I needed him

592
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:11.920
to be like a force of nature in a lot

593
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:16.719
of ways, where everything he stands for is an opposition

594
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.719
to what you know, our hero stands for.

595
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:25.440
Yeah. One thing I really enjoyed about reading this book

596
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:30.159
is that you leave little easter eggs for readers, especially

597
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:36.719
like if you follow social media at all, there's always

598
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.280
writers that come up, and it's because we're all reading

599
00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:42.800
these writers, you know, writers like say Cosby s A.

600
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.440
Cosby makes an appearance, and so does Land Lansdale. And

601
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:50.320
when Jerry's remembering his life with Abby because she read

602
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:54.320
a lot of books, I just I wanted to point

603
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.480
that out because I love this aspect of the book.

604
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:58.920
Is this something you do with a lot of your work?

605
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.280
Do you just like because I don't remember it before.

606
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:05.400
But uh no, like I started doing it once I

607
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:10.119
had you know, south it's all Southland related stuff, Like

608
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:15.719
it's it's uh, are you talking about just name dropping? Like?

609
00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:18.679
Yeah, name dropping authors because it's it's always awesome to

610
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:20.079
see I.

611
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.400
Mean, I have, it's not you know, it's something I

612
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:28.000
just it would the way I ended up using Sean's name,

613
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.159
you know, when you know one of Abby's books that

614
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:34.239
Jerry picks up and starts reading, you know I had,

615
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.920
you know, I had Blacktop Wasteland on my desk mm hmm.

616
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:44.239
And anytime I anytime I'm writing in a character or

617
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.280
a thing comes up that needs a name, I usually

618
00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:53.519
just look around, yeah, and like you know, or if

619
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:56.239
I need a character name for somebody that isn't you know,

620
00:42:57.400 --> 00:43:01.679
it's just a supporting character. You know, what song am

621
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:03.960
I listening to? Who's the singer for that band? Or

622
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.360
who's the drummer? I'll pick a name out of the

623
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:12.480
hat essentially. But like, you know, Lansdale's written some crime stuff,

624
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:15.480
and you know, Cosby is kind of the you know,

625
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:21.280
the the the guy right now for crime fiction, and

626
00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:25.480
you know, it just seemed like a good a good fit.

627
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:30.239
Who's Who's contemporary, Who's classic? You know that would make

628
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.679
sense to throw out in this story. Beyond that, I

629
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:35.559
really don't put a lot of thought into it, to

630
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:39.400
be honest, awesome.

631
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:42.079
Oh, did any of the characters like, uh, you you

632
00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:45.039
kind of mix uh. I think you write mostly from

633
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.920
the seat of your pants, but you do like very

634
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.719
like basic outline, like you know where the story's going.

635
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.159
Yeah, Like I need a beginning. I need to know

636
00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:57.800
where it's going to end up, even if it changes

637
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:01.559
along the way. Yeah, it's a posts and I need

638
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:02.039
a title.

639
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:06.480
I like that it changes even if you have an

640
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:09.679
idea where it's going. So my next question is, did

641
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.559
any of the characters surprise you with how they developed

642
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:14.000
during the writing process of this?

643
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:23.079
Yeah, Lisa Dunnelly, Catherine's daughter. Yes, she was only going

644
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:29.599
to be just a nurse, and until until the moment

645
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:33.519
that she showed up at Jerry's doorstep, that was you know,

646
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:36.760
I had it. I was right on track to make

647
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.000
it a novella, and then she showed up and it

648
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:45.239
completely changed the whole outlook and of a plot because

649
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:47.719
he was too strong of a character to just be

650
00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:52.679
the nurse. Yeah, and you know, she's very much a

651
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.800
reflection of her mother in a lot of ways, and

652
00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:00.440
I couldn't. She was too intriguing for me to just

653
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.519
sweep her under the rug. And but by bringing her

654
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.519
to you know, front and center or stage in the book,

655
00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:11.599
it meant, you know, it kind of broadened the horizon

656
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:15.440
a lot in a lot of ways and changed things

657
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:23.800
plot wise. So Lisa was definitely a surprise. Catherine, Catherine

658
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:29.320
was a surprise. A lot of the characters grew organically,

659
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:34.840
you know. Starting out, I knew, I knew who Jerry

660
00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:40.320
was and who he's named after, my late grandfather as

661
00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:43.159
a matter of fact, So he was kind of my

662
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:48.360
model at first, you know, and that changed over the

663
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:53.320
many drafts because Jerry quickly became a reflection of myself

664
00:45:54.559 --> 00:46:02.480
that I saw, you know, in another thirty years. Yeah. Arthur, Arthur.

665
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:04.960
Initially when I started writing the story, Arthur was just

666
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:08.360
a big your head, you know, he was he didn't

667
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:15.599
really have any depth. So that also grew into something

668
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:23.159
more sinister. Arthur's wife, Gladys, she was a surprise, a

669
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:23.960
fun surprise.

670
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:28.159
She was a fun surprise to read too. Actually, all

671
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:29.960
the characters are kind of fun in their own way

672
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:32.559
because you never know what's going to happen, right, But

673
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:39.280
this this story has like I don't know, it's just

674
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:43.000
I didn't know where it was going, and I it

675
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.639
was pleasantly surprised by the end, honestly, thank you.

676
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:48.320
Yeah, it's like the ending is.

677
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.079
I don't want to say it's it's not too dark,

678
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:55.360
but it does end on kind of a dark note.

679
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:02.199
But I yeah, the ending, it couldn't have ended any

680
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:06.199
other way. Like that was always the That was always

681
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:10.719
the end that I had in mind. Aspects of it changed,

682
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.440
but I knew it was going to be a bit

683
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:18.159
of a tear jerker if I if I did my

684
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:21.199
job correctly, and it seems like I did because everybody

685
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:22.159
comments on the ending.

686
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:27.159
Man, the beginning had me, like, you know, wiping up

687
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:29.760
my eyes too, just with what Jerry was going through

688
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:32.559
made me think of me in my own life, you know, like,

689
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:35.199
what what am I going to do? Because no one

690
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:38.480
might It's probably a terrible thing to say, but I

691
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:40.960
was going to say, knowing my luck, she'll go first.

692
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.079
Yeah. Don't don't tempt the universe like that. No, I

693
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:47.639
don't want to tempt the universe like that.

694
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:53.480
Yeah. And another interesting fact about this book is that

695
00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:57.320
it was influenced by the movie The Burbs, which is

696
00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:58.719
a favorite of mine.

697
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:03.000
Oh I love the Burbs. Yeah. When I was doing the.

698
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:07.760
Dark Nest Wells podcast, with my old co host Michael Schutz.

699
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:11.960
We did an episode on The Burbs, and uh, that

700
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:13.760
was a lot of like I've seen it a few

701
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:15.920
times and I owned the movie, but it's a lot

702
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:21.079
of fun. I can see something like some interesting comparisons.

703
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:26.519
Uh. I was spitballing ideas with some friends a few

704
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:29.039
weeks ago about you know, if this, if this were

705
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:30.800
to get option for a film, wh would you want

706
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.000
to see play? And I'm like, well, Tom Hanks has

707
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:35.760
to be Jerry, Yeah, come on, that would be perfect.

708
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:39.199
But you know, I even mentioned that the Klopex in

709
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.480
the book. You know that's like one of Abigail's favorite

710
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:49.199
films is The Urbs, and it like the Neighbor. The

711
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:53.599
neighbor's dog is named Queenie. Uh. You know that's taken

712
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:58.480
from the Verbs, and it's just a great film of

713
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:06.519
a social dynamic that occurs in a close, semi closed

714
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:11.119
pocket of humanity. M And I look at the Verbs

715
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:15.239
and I also see like dynamics that emerge in an

716
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:18.239
office setting. You know, you've got the guy that everybody

717
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:20.920
looks to to kind of lead the pack. You've got

718
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:25.519
the guy who's overly militant, you have the neighbor who's

719
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:30.519
always causing fucking trouble. You've got the weird people that

720
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:33.000
everybody kind of avoids because they don't want to talk

721
00:49:33.039 --> 00:49:36.199
to them, and you've got the one asshole who lets

722
00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:41.440
his dog out in everybody else's yard. You know it.

723
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:47.039
You kind of to me it was interesting and to

724
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:53.519
to take that dynamic and try to replicate that in fiction. Yeah,

725
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:57.599
that's where that's where Gary came from. That's where Brad

726
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:02.039
Matilda Scott came from. Uh, you know, they were all

727
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:10.639
homages to characters from the Burbs, you know, And yeah,

728
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:13.199
The Burbs is just a fantastic fucking movie. And I'm

729
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.480
gonna it is always champion that film.

730
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.000
Yeah, it's funny. It's been a few years since I

731
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:21.960
probably when we did that episode on Darkness Wells that

732
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.599
I last saw it, so it's not fresh in my memory.

733
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:28.000
But I wasn't thinking of The Burbs until I heard

734
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:33.239
you talking about it, and I was like, oh shit, yeah, awesome.

735
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:38.159
Excuse me, gotta tickle that won't go away all right now.

736
00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:42.559
I was wondering because you do, right, like, this is

737
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:44.920
what we haven't really talked about the cosmic horror, and

738
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:47.679
I kind of wanted to keep that a little under

739
00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:53.039
wraps because it is it is mentioned that it is

740
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:56.039
cosmic core, but I think if we're going too far

741
00:50:56.119 --> 00:51:00.440
into that will kind of ruin you know, Yeah, that

742
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:03.840
comes with it. So I was wondering, what is it

743
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:08.119
that And this isn't your first rodeo with cosmic cor either,

744
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:10.920
So I'm wondering what is it that draws you to

745
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:13.039
writing cosmic corer and weird fiction.

746
00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:18.280
I think it has to do with worldview and just

747
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:25.000
my view on existence. You know. I I started reading

748
00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:28.400
Lovecraft around the same time that I started reading Politic

749
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:34.679
and I you know, being introduced to CAMU in high school,

750
00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:43.840
Stranger and the Existentialists, you know, philosophy love Crafts, you know,

751
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.880
as an extension of that kind of formative reading I

752
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:51.079
was doing at the time. So I was like sixteen seventeen.

753
00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:00.920
Lovecraft's influence and the world that he created kind of

754
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:06.559
reflects you know, if I could imagine God, a god

755
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:14.400
or a you know, alien being that it's so ridiculously

756
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:18.800
huge that we are but ants at its feet. You know,

757
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.400
it wouldn't care, or maybe it would care, and it

758
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.199
would care too much, and you know, dabble in the

759
00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:30.159
affairs of humanity, or humanity is just a pest that

760
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:33.599
can be swept aside, you know, when it decides it

761
00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:41.360
wants to, you know, return home. So like I kind

762
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:46.000
of I fear this isn't making sense, but I I

763
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:51.079
I attribute a lot of like the mythos to an

764
00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:54.239
existentialist way of thinking. It's like, you know, it doesn't

765
00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:58.599
really matter what's going to happen, because you know, because

766
00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.639
it was going to rise from Layah and this drive

767
00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:04.760
everybody mad, or in a few billionaeres, the Sun's going

768
00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:08.039
to explode and engulf the planet and none of this

769
00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:13.639
is going to fucking matter. Yeah, That's That's always been

770
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:17.480
my draw to cosmic horror because it's we are so

771
00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:23.039
small in the scheme of things, We're so small, and

772
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:29.760
I like cosmic horror to me feels like it keeps

773
00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:33.880
it keeps the human ego and check in a lot

774
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:36.840
of ways, because we can get so wrapped up in

775
00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:39.880
all of this like all of this is matters, this

776
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:45.039
is priority one, when really none of this fucking matters,

777
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:50.639
and you know, we are literally a spec in a big,

778
00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:58.079
wide universe. And to me, that's that's why I gravitate

779
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:01.400
toward cosmic horror. I think. I'm sure there's you know,

780
00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:08.280
a psycho you know, a psychological reason probably, but it

781
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:14.199
I'm drawn to it because of that. It's the it's

782
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:16.519
how we're you know, we're so small in the grand

783
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:19.639
scheme of things. But something I like to do in

784
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:23.519
my cosmic horror, not necessarily cosmic or in general, but

785
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:28.679
my approach to it is to look at the human

786
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:33.440
element of that. It's like, okay, well, now that we

787
00:54:33.559 --> 00:54:38.079
know that we are, you know, none of this matters,

788
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:42.920
how do we continue? Mm hm? And you know, to

789
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:48.280
to borrow to reference Cameu again philosophy, especially with the myth.

790
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.119
Well then why don't we just like end our lives? Well,

791
00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:56.800
it's because the act of living isn't in itself a rebellion.

792
00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:00.480
It's that goes back to the mythus and how one

793
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:04.599
must imagine Sis is happy even though he's been condemned

794
00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:07.599
for all eternity, to roll a stone up the mountain

795
00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:10.199
and watch it fall down at the end of the day.

796
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:13.360
You find happiness in the action, in the doing, and

797
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:17.559
the living, even though we all know we're gonna die.

798
00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:20.039
And in a lot of ways, the way I look

799
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:23.400
at it is it gives meaning to our lives, knowing

800
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:27.360
that we have a set you know, end date. So

801
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:30.559
it's like, okay, well then don't dally, do what you

802
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:37.239
want to do, be happy. Yeah, And so I like

803
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:42.119
to explore that that explore that human element in cosmic

804
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:50.159
or so, you know, things are pretty dire toward the

805
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:54.480
end of Sundowners Dance, but and this is a good example.

806
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:58.079
I think, you know, we have the climax, it's really

807
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:03.519
fucking dark, it's really fucking scary, it's very cosmic. But

808
00:56:03.559 --> 00:56:09.679
then in the epilogue we scale back down and we're

809
00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:13.079
looking at Jerry and Catherine m and even though they

810
00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:17.559
their days are limited, what are they doing to make

811
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:21.280
the best of it? And that's kind of what that

812
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:24.920
all symbolizes with you know, how they end up again

813
00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:29.159
in the epilogue kind being very careful to what to

814
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:31.239
say here. Yeah, I don't want to spoil it.

815
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:32.920
Yeah, I don't want to spoil it either, but I

816
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.199
do want to say that I enjoyed the epilogue because

817
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:41.719
there is there is like maybe, uh, you know, some

818
00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:46.599
joy there in all the darkness. There's a little bit

819
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:49.719
of joy. And I think that's the point right there,

820
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:53.360
when when because I totally agree with everything you just said. Like,

821
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:56.639
this is stuff I think about all the time, how

822
00:56:56.800 --> 00:57:00.000
nothing really matters. But in a sense, it does matter

823
00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:03.880
because you're existing it, You're you're you're the one living

824
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:08.679
through it, right. But the joy what you said, is

825
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:12.239
the joy is in the going through it and finding

826
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:19.559
you know, finding the joy in the present moment basically. Yeah,

827
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:22.639
And and despite all the darkness, like because all this

828
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.360
could end right now, or it could end tomorrow, but

829
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:30.199
right now we're alive and we're talking, and and then

830
00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:32.440
maybe we're going to go create something or go watch

831
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:35.119
a movie whatever, but we can do what we want

832
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:41.880
and and find fulfillment and enjoyment while we're while we're here. Yeah,

833
00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:43.800
And I think that's what the end kind of the

834
00:57:43.880 --> 00:57:47.880
epilogue kind of kind of stress. I wouldn't say stresses,

835
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:50.840
but it mentions. It does that make sense to you?

836
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:57.639
It does? Yeah, So you know that. Plus I think

837
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:02.280
large tides, you alien gods are pretty fucking cool. So

838
00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:10.760
that's very Yeah. I mean that, that to me is

839
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:14.599
you know, one of the reasons I'm ron a cosmic horror.

840
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:19.760
It's just it's the it's the aspects of it, you know,

841
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:23.840
the dread, the the existential dread that that comes from it,

842
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:27.679
because I deal with existential dread every fucking day of

843
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:34.639
my life and always have and always will. Uh yeah,

844
00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:40.519
it's just a that is my preferred subgenre of horror.

845
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:44.400
Mhm for that all. For that reason, do.

846
00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:49.320
You think in order to write cosmic horror that you

847
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:52.039
kind of have to have that sort of mindset? Uh?

848
00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:54.239
Maybe even like philosophy.

849
00:58:55.719 --> 00:59:00.519
I mean, do you need it? No, it's probably a

850
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:04.880
good idea to have an understanding of it, just to

851
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:10.280
give you know, a better grasp of what you're writing about.

852
00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:14.519
But at the same time, you know, if you're just

853
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:18.440
writing a surface level story about the old ones returning,

854
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:24.880
you don't it doesn't need that extra philosophical angle at all.

855
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:28.559
You don't need that, but it does enhance it. I think,

856
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:36.079
I take Legotti isn't necessarily cosmic horror per se, Like

857
00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:39.039
I kind of look at Legotti in fiction is more

858
00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:46.519
nihilistic as opposed to existentialists. But you know, you don't

859
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:51.480
need the philosophy you know too of you know, you

860
00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:56.239
don't need the anti navalist philosophy that Legotti himself pretty

861
00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:00.840
much you know, adheres to. But if you read his

862
01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:05.079
fiction understanding what that is and understanding where he's coming from,

863
01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:07.760
it puts a whole new angle on it, and it

864
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:09.960
allows you to appreciate it more.

865
01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:14.360
I think, yeah, I can agree with that for sure,

866
01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:23.559
all right. From interviewing writers for over ten years now,

867
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.880
I have found that there are usually two ways a

868
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:32.000
story comes to a writer for the first time. It's

869
01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:35.719
either the what if scenario actually three times, not two,

870
01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:39.679
but three, either the what if scenario, or the characters

871
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:42.960
come and tell the writer what happened to them, And

872
01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:46.400
sometimes it's a mixture of both. How do you feel

873
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:50.719
stories typically come to you like when they first introduce themselves.

874
01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:52.440
Or itself?

875
01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:53.239
I guess.

876
01:00:55.880 --> 01:00:59.119
It's different every time. It seems like like sometimes it's

877
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:03.880
the characters was that speaks up? Or sometimes it's a

878
01:01:03.960 --> 01:01:09.199
scenario that I read about in the news or something,

879
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:13.920
or and from that point what if aspect kicks in.

880
01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:20.000
What if this happened when this obviously horrible thing event transpired?

881
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:24.239
What if it wasn't this but this? And you start

882
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:26.960
thinking about you know, you start connecting dots in your

883
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:32.360
head and or I do. But it's never the same

884
01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:36.599
every time, Like Sundowners dance. For example, the seed of

885
01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:41.039
that story began with a single line, the worms of

886
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:43.599
my brain dance at nightfall. I wrote it down it

887
01:01:43.599 --> 01:01:48.360
popped into my head. I was having another shitty day

888
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:51.159
at work, and I felt like my head was just

889
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:55.800
full of bees and everything was humming, and I was overstimulated,

890
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:00.079
and I couldn't just go sit in the dark a

891
01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:02.280
few hours. I had to stay in the office and

892
01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:06.880
be on So this thought occurred to me, the worms

893
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:09.559
in my brain dance at nightfall. I don't know why.

894
01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:15.000
At the earliest I can trace like the concept back

895
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:17.000
to a comic strip I read when I was in

896
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:21.639
college that is no longer online. The comic was called

897
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:25.440
The Parking Lot Is Full, and it was depicted this

898
01:02:26.840 --> 01:02:31.440
college professor at a chalkboard writing this complex math formula

899
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:37.920
and all the students aren't paying attention. And the humor

900
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:40.800
was that he was talking about, you know, there are

901
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:43.480
worms in my brain, please send help. He is actually

902
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:46.639
writing that, but because nobody's paying attention, his cry for

903
01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:54.800
help goes un answered. So I'm assuming that's where the

904
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:57.760
worms in my brain dance at nightfall comes from, because

905
01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:01.199
otherwise I have no idea. It just popped in there, yeah,

906
01:03:01.239 --> 01:03:05.000
and I wrote it down, and I had separately been

907
01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:10.079
thinking about, you know, the neighborhood I live in, and

908
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:16.840
you know, just how neighborly I wanted to be, because

909
01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:19.039
I you know, we had just moved into our house

910
01:03:19.519 --> 01:03:24.199
and you know, I'm not a social butterfly, So how

911
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:26.920
neighborly do I want to be? And what if? What

912
01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:30.519
if all the neighbors are into something weird, and what

913
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:36.440
if they're worshiping the moon or something? And then you know,

914
01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:39.719
I've carried that with the line that popped in my

915
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:43.039
head and now here we are seven years later.

916
01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:48.360
It's kind of interesting how the unconscious mind works, like yeah,

917
01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:52.199
because like things always just kind of pop up that way, right,

918
01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:56.760
Like two separate things suddenly become one, and sometimes there's

919
01:03:56.760 --> 01:04:01.119
a third and the fourth. And then after when you're done,

920
01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:03.320
you're looking at what you what you've done, and it's

921
01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:07.039
like holy, like shit, Like I was thinking about all

922
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:09.119
these different things and they all just collide into this

923
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:14.079
one story or or yeah right, yeah. I love that

924
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:17.760
about like human existence because like no other animal that

925
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:20.239
we're aware of really exists like this.

926
01:04:22.559 --> 01:04:25.480
It's that we're aware of that we're aware of yeah, exactly.

927
01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:31.360
Yeah, it's fascinating to me. That's that's kind of like

928
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:34.079
my roundabout way of asking how did you come up

929
01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:37.079
with the story. But the reason why I like asking

930
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:40.079
that question is because I'm very interested in how the

931
01:04:40.159 --> 01:04:45.119
unconscious mind works towards creativity. I think most people have

932
01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:47.599
a creative side to them to one degree or another.

933
01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:50.639
But yeah, writers.

934
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:53.559
And artists, musicians are I think a little bit a

935
01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:55.519
little bit different breed because.

936
01:04:56.960 --> 01:04:59.119
They tend to attack the you.

937
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:02.599
Know there there are a little more directly. Sometimes it

938
01:05:02.599 --> 01:05:07.599
depends on what we're talking about here too. Yeah, all right,

939
01:05:07.719 --> 01:05:10.960
so I think that does it for the Sundowners dance

940
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:15.920
before we go though, I do ask this of all

941
01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:21.599
my writers lately anyway, if you don't have an answer,

942
01:05:21.639 --> 01:05:24.239
because I forgot to email this to you and so

943
01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:26.440
that's totally my bad. So I can just cut this

944
01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:29.880
out if you want to skip it. But what writer,

945
01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:32.760
horror or otherwise doesn't have to be a horror writer?

946
01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:36.559
Do you feel more people need to be talking about,

947
01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:39.880
like on social media and whatnot, who's getting skipped that

948
01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:41.159
you absolutely love?

949
01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:48.280
The first one that comes to mind is Catherine Silva.

950
01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:59.360
She wrote The Undead folk, dead folk, nothing land, wild Fell.

951
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:03.760
She's a main author. A lot of her stuff deals

952
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:11.119
with grief and like nature and to some degree it's

953
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:15.639
a little bit folky. Uh. And just you know, she's

954
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:18.760
an indie author. She's out there doing it entirely on

955
01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:22.440
her own, doesn't have representation, doesn't have a public you know,

956
01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:26.159
a big publisher backing her. She's just doing it all

957
01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.960
and I think she deserves more and more recognition for that.

958
01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.159
Is that Catherine with C or a K, Catherine with

959
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:34.400
a K?

960
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:36.920
Yeah, I spelled it right the first time.

961
01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:38.039
What do you know?

962
01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:41.519
Is there anyone else that comes to mind?

963
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:48.119
Ah? Yeah, I mean Amanda Hedley comes to mind. I

964
01:06:48.159 --> 01:07:06.320
think you know, uh, robotone, Becca Rowlands drawing a blank. Sorry, no,

965
01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:06.800
no worries.

966
01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:09.280
That's why I should have emailed it to your first

967
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:11.880
but you know you did. You did come up with

968
01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:16.519
some authors, so that's great. So are you able to

969
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:18.719
talk about what you're working on right now?

970
01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:22.880
Yeah, to a degree. And I'm working on a short

971
01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:29.599
story that's currently If it turns out the way I hope,

972
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:33.119
it'll be the origin story for Gus Guthrie, the host

973
01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:38.519
of Midnight in the Southland. Nice that's what I'm currently

974
01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:41.239
working on. I've got until the end of the month

975
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:46.719
to wrap that up and turn that in. After that's done,

976
01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:51.159
I'm diving into notes that my agent gave me for

977
01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:56.320
my next novel, Revelation Road. No publisher for that yet,

978
01:07:57.320 --> 01:08:02.920
but hoping to change that in the near future. It

979
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:07.760
is not necessarily a direct sequel, but it is a

980
01:08:07.800 --> 01:08:13.000
follow up to Devil's Creek. It does I end with

981
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:17.439
the Sundowner stance, and in a way I can't tell

982
01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:22.760
you how because that's a spoiler. That Revelation Road is

983
01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:25.000
pretty much going to be my main focus for the

984
01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:27.439
rest of the year, probably after this story's done.

985
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:31.479
Nice, I'm looking forward to it. Do you have anything

986
01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:34.960
coming up soon, a short story or otherwise.

987
01:08:35.840 --> 01:08:40.439
Yeah, So, I have a Southland story coming out in

988
01:08:41.479 --> 01:08:46.079
issue three seventy one, a Weird Tales magazine. Pretty excited

989
01:08:46.119 --> 01:08:48.840
to see that in print. That's a bucket list of

990
01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:54.039
mine and to get accepted and into that long history

991
01:08:54.079 --> 01:08:56.279
of that magazine is amazing.

992
01:08:56.680 --> 01:08:59.520
Absolutely, congratulation, Thank.

993
01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:01.520
You, thank you. Yeah, I got a story coming out

994
01:09:01.520 --> 01:09:04.920
in that and Tom Dede just announced the lineup for

995
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:08.880
the Rack two that anthology though. Oh yeah, he's putting out.

996
01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:12.800
I also have a south Land story in that one

997
01:09:12.840 --> 01:09:17.319
called the Woodhill Wet Nurse, and that ties in with

998
01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:21.239
the story from called Black and Infinite called after Birth.

999
01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:26.760
That those are the two I have coming out in

1000
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:34.479
the near future. I just showed photos of the omnibus

1001
01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:41.520
edition of my Monochrome trilogy three novels. That's uh, that's

1002
01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:44.359
going to come out in September. It's a it's a

1003
01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:47.840
big boy. It's six hundred and sixty six pages long.

1004
01:09:48.119 --> 01:09:52.840
I saw that on I saw that on a I

1005
01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:57.560
forget where Facebook? I think maybe. Yeah. Beautiful coverwork, man.

1006
01:09:57.960 --> 01:10:02.760
Thank you, thank you. Uh. And also this fall, second

1007
01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:07.000
editions of my first collection of The Little Things and also

1008
01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:10.239
my first novel at the Final Reconciliation are both being

1009
01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:11.479
released in Crystal Lake.

1010
01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:12.600
Awesome.

1011
01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:17.920
Yeah, so in next year sometime, probably the paperback edition

1012
01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:18.760
at Sundowners.

1013
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:21.680
So there's lots of keysling.

1014
01:10:22.119 --> 01:10:25.359
Yeah, there's lots of stuff coming out. You know, it's

1015
01:10:26.439 --> 01:10:29.560
kind of familiar stuff for a lot of my longtime fans,

1016
01:10:29.640 --> 01:10:31.520
but for newer folks, you know, it would be a

1017
01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:33.399
good opportunity for them to dive in.

1018
01:10:34.079 --> 01:10:38.439
Yeah, speaking of that, if there's anybody listening who's new

1019
01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:40.680
to your work. Where would you direct them What would

1020
01:10:40.680 --> 01:10:42.119
you direct them to read first?

1021
01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:47.239
Direct them to read first? Probably Double's Creek. That's probably

1022
01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:51.279
the probably the best way to kind of get caught

1023
01:10:51.359 --> 01:10:56.079
up on things if you're put off by the side

1024
01:10:56.079 --> 01:10:58.399
of that book. I mean, it's over five hundred pages

1025
01:11:00.159 --> 01:11:03.319
with Cole Black and Infinite. My second collection, if you

1026
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:05.199
can get your hands on it, that does come out

1027
01:11:05.399 --> 01:11:12.279
next next year from Bad Hand, but you know, that's

1028
01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:15.800
also a good primer. My first collection of The Little

1029
01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:19.880
Things is also currently in print, so you can find

1030
01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:25.760
that on Amazon or wherever books are sold. But if

1031
01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:27.960
you can get your hands on Devil's Creek, you know,

1032
01:11:28.039 --> 01:11:31.119
from your library, or it's also available in audio, it's

1033
01:11:31.159 --> 01:11:35.079
not you know, it's not going away on audio. That

1034
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:39.760
would probably be the my recommendation. That's what I'm mostly

1035
01:11:39.840 --> 01:11:40.319
known for.

1036
01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:45.680
Excellent Now, final question, where's the best place for readers

1037
01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:48.680
to connect with you online to keep up to date

1038
01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:50.439
with what you're coming up with?

1039
01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:55.920
My website, Todd Keasling dot com is I keep that

1040
01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:00.640
up to date with news and appearances, upcoming appearances. It's

1041
01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:02.920
also where you can sign up for my newsletter, which

1042
01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:08.479
is monthly. That's probably your best those two best places.

1043
01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:12.199
Beyond that, I am active on blue Sky and Instagram

1044
01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:18.119
at Toddesling, soe you can find me on social media

1045
01:12:18.479 --> 01:12:22.079
and bug me. Awesome.

1046
01:12:22.399 --> 01:12:25.640
Well, I want to give you a big thanks. It's

1047
01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:28.000
been a as I said, there's been a lot that's

1048
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:32.000
happened since we last talked, so I appreciate you coming

1049
01:12:32.039 --> 01:12:37.359
on and talking with me, and you're always invited to

1050
01:12:37.359 --> 01:12:37.880
come back.

1051
01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:38.920
Thanks.

1052
01:12:38.920 --> 01:12:42.119
Well, if I ever come at you again saying hey, Todd,

1053
01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:43.479
you want to come on my show.

1054
01:12:44.520 --> 01:12:46.399
I hope that you'll accept.

1055
01:12:47.319 --> 01:12:50.920
I'm sure I will, and we'll talk to you next time.

1056
01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:52.920
All right, man, Thanks again.

1057
01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:00.760
That was my conversation with Todd Keasling. I had a

1058
01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:04.520
great time talking with Todd. As I said before, we

1059
01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:10.640
talked in the late twenty teens, and he was really

1060
01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:13.520
cool then, and I'm not too sure why I waited

1061
01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:17.520
so long to talk to him again. I think maybe

1062
01:13:17.560 --> 01:13:21.279
it's just circumstances, because I didn't get this podcast really

1063
01:13:21.399 --> 01:13:26.600
rolling again until twenty twenty four, so that is probably it.

1064
01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:29.079
But I've been talking to people on the Weird Reads

1065
01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:34.479
podcast here for a little while at least. But yeah,

1066
01:13:35.119 --> 01:13:37.239
it was nice to connect with him again talk about

1067
01:13:37.239 --> 01:13:41.359
what he's been writing, especially The Sundowners Dance. The Sundowners

1068
01:13:41.479 --> 01:13:46.439
Dance is a really, really awesome book and a spoiler alert,

1069
01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:49.880
you will probably see this book on my top ten

1070
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:53.680
at the end of the year. I was pleasantly surprised

1071
01:13:53.720 --> 01:13:57.640
with how much I enjoyed reading this book. I didn't

1072
01:13:57.680 --> 01:14:01.880
have to force myself to folks on it. It was

1073
01:14:01.960 --> 01:14:06.319
all right there and every time I went to read it,

1074
01:14:06.319 --> 01:14:09.079
it sucked me in and I absolutely love it when

1075
01:14:09.079 --> 01:14:13.479
a story will do that, all right. So if you

1076
01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:16.079
want to help support the show, it's easy to do.

1077
01:14:16.399 --> 01:14:18.399
You can do it for free. Just go to.

1078
01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:23.960
Apple Apple Podcasts, find the show there and leave a

1079
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:29.680
five star review and give it a review while you're there.

1080
01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:34.760
That helps Apple spread the word. If they get enough

1081
01:14:34.880 --> 01:14:37.560
of that kind of thing, they're more willing to share

1082
01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:40.239
my show and that will help the show grow.

1083
01:14:41.439 --> 01:14:43.039
You can also go and rate.

1084
01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:47.840
The podcast on Spotify. If you listen there, you can

1085
01:14:47.840 --> 01:14:51.640
give it a star rating there, and I believe you

1086
01:14:51.680 --> 01:14:55.960
can comment on each episode, so leave a comment, leave

1087
01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:59.520
a question if you want. You can email the show

1088
01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:03.600
as well at Weirdreads podcast at gmail dot com.

1089
01:15:04.039 --> 01:15:05.640
And will I will answer.

1090
01:15:07.159 --> 01:15:09.159
You can also join the Patreon.

1091
01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:10.319
Go to.

1092
01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:18.960
Patreon dot com forward Slash, Jason Underscore white and you

1093
01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:23.600
can become a Patreon that. There are a few different

1094
01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:30.039
tiers you can join, I believe for let me see here.

1095
01:15:30.159 --> 01:15:33.039
I'm looking it up as we speak. I have a

1096
01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:36.800
terrible memory these days. You can join for free, or

1097
01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:39.359
you can join the Weird Reader level, which is six

1098
01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:40.119
dollars a month.

1099
01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:41.479
You can join the.

1100
01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:45.720
Short Byte sorry, the Short Bytes Club at five dollars

1101
01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:48.840
a month, which is for the Stephen King podcast I

1102
01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:52.520
also do, and the Weird Friends, which is the smallest one,

1103
01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:57.119
the short or the cheapest one at three dollars a month,

1104
01:15:57.600 --> 01:15:59.760
and all the money I make on that goes to

1105
01:16:01.279 --> 01:16:06.159
making the show better. One thing that I have used

1106
01:16:06.199 --> 01:16:08.640
the money for was to buy what I used for

1107
01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:11.199
the first time on this episode, and that is my

1108
01:16:11.319 --> 01:16:14.840
new microphone. So I don't know if you noticed. The

1109
01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:18.199
sound quality may have improved a bit. I hope it

1110
01:16:18.239 --> 01:16:21.800
did because I put some money towards this microphone.

1111
01:16:22.640 --> 01:16:25.760
So there you go. Thank you for listening.

1112
01:16:27.880 --> 01:16:32.880
Until next time, Keep being safe, keep being weird, because weird.

1113
01:16:33.760 --> 01:16:36.359
Being weird is very important these days.

1114
01:16:36.720 --> 01:17:47.000
I'll catch you guys on the next podcast.