Life After the Game with Green Bay Packers Legend: Ken Ruettgers

0:01 Welcome to the Wayne Watson Podcast, where Grammy nominee and multiple Dove award-winning artist Wayne Watson engages in lively conversation with remarkable people from every walk of life. Artists to healthcare professionals, athletes and leaders to everyday believers whose stories reflect the power of faith at work in the world. Join us as we go beyond the spotlight and into the heart of what it means to live with purpose and conviction, diving into real conversations about the moments that shape us, the faith that sustains us, and the God who inspires it all. Now, here's your host, Wayne Watson.

0:42 Good morning, everyone. I'm about to record episode three of the Wayne Watson Podcast. My guest today is a longtime friend, former Green Bay Packer, left offensive tackle Ken Ruettgers. Ken and I go way back, lots of good stories. I think you'll find it fascinating, brilliant guy, funny guy, big guy. So stay with us. We'll be right there. This is episode three of a very clever name, the Wayne Watson Podcast. So thank you for joining me. Now, what's on your agenda for today after we're done with this? What are you doing?

1:22 Well, it's a busy day. So after this, I'm going to drive to my college that I teach at and do a quick podcast with John Stockton. Yeah, former NBA great. Yes. And we have a podcast called The Ultimate Assist, kind of health and medical freedom and that kind of stuff. And then I have two final exams I'm given today. So I got a full day. My gosh. Now, how do you know John Stockton? I remember he played for the. Jazz. Utah Jazz. Did he? Yeah, he's a very recognizable name. How do you know him? Well, you know what? Senator Ron Johnson from Wisconsin, who I got to know during the COVID period, he connected us.

2:06 And so, yeah. So I've been, you know, since we've like connected for just prior to COVID, man, I mean, being in different spaces and that's kind of I've lived my life in a lot of spaces. I'll run into somebody, you know, and I recognize their face, but it's like, hey, help me put you into the right box. I've been only only seen you on a Zoom call or a podcast. I know. It's great. That's great. It's great to be with you, though, Wayne. It is awesome you and talk with you and catch up a little bit. Yeah. I love being able to catch up this way. Remind me. I know where you're teaching. Tell everybody where you're teaching, what you're teaching.

2:48 Yeah. I live out in Central Oregon and teach at a community college, which was kind of the only game in town. And so I have my master's in business, but I could teach business, but I got my PhD in sociology to help find an answer to and a solution to sport career transition, which is harder than than you want to believe it to be. So, yeah, so I started teaching sociology. So, which I find fascinating and challenging. Well, without divulging too much about your student population, you've told me that the culture that you find yourself in is you and I are a different era.

3:32 And so the culture and the mores and the values are, if not really authentically different, they're surely stated as different and you have to navigate verbiage and all that kind of stuff, I'm sure. Well, that and not only generationally, but Oregon, the whole West Coast, of course, is a different culture than most of the rest of the country. And Oregon and Washington were always competing for the most unchurched state in the union. Who's in the lead right now? I don't know. It's neck and neck every year. We're wanting to be number one. I'm not sure that's a great...

4:12 That's kind of like the worst public school in the nation kind of thing. Yes. So, there's some good things in the Northwest. You're there. You're digging your heels in, standing ground for the faith. I want to tell people about you a little bit. I've known you since the mid to late 90s. You were born in Bakersfield. You went to high school in Bakersfield, I guess. Yes. I always want to know, because you guys that go through the ranks of professional sports, what was it like in high school? Were you six foot eight like you are now and buff and ripped and the biggest, baddest man in the whole town? No, a lot of guys were. I mean, I was young for my age, so my goal was coming in as a freshman in high school, trying as a pebble.

5:01 My goal was to be the biggest boulder. And so, it took me about four years to be a big enough boulder to get a full -ride scholarship to USC. And of course, I got there thinking I was all that. And of course, I was a pebble when I got there, maybe even less than a pebble, maybe a speck of sand because the guys at USC that were offensive linemen, guys like Anthony Munoz and Roy Foster and Keith Van Horn and Don Mosbar and Bruce Matthews. You know Bruce from- Oh my gosh, yes. And so, eventually, I became a boulder at USC. It took five years to get there. And then, was a first-round draft pick for the Green Bay Packers.

5:43 Wow. Yeah. I'm thinking about you as I'm getting ready for this. I'm thinking, were you the star in high school? And everybody said, oh, Rutgers is going to go to USC. And USC, you excelled. And then, to be drafted in the- No, you're shaking your head. What? No, I'm shaking my head because I remember- And this happens to a lot of guys, I think. You get recruited and you go and you got a lot of teammates that are going, oh, he'll never make it. He'll walk out. And I asked guys that are in transition, guys I played with when we were playing. I said, did you ever think about going home your freshman year and quitting college ball?

6:24 Because it's a tough transition. You're 17, 18 years old. You're with men. I mean, you're a boy at 17 or 18. And you're with men that are 22 years old and just getting beat to a pulp. And almost all of them say, especially on the line, because that's where the biggest difference of man muscle to boy muscle comes in. And almost all of them say, yeah, I absolutely felt like I wanted to quit. I wanted to go home. And I ask them, and this is true of me too, I ask them, why didn't you? And almost all of them will say, you know what? Because I didn't want to come home with my tail tucked between my legs as a failure. And whatever that is going on, the fuel that propels them to do great things in sport and climbing that ladder.

7:11 But I coached high school football for about 15 years. And to answer your question kind of in a different maybe way, you know what? It's the same game. I mean, the high school kids don't have to block Bruce Smith or Lawrence Taylor or Derek Thomas, but they're blocking guys that are challenging at their level. Guys jump off sides in high school. We do it in the pros. We get called for holding in the pros. High school kids do too. It's all relative. So, it's a lot of fun. What was your church up? Did you grow up in church? You grew up with any faith, fire in your heart to keep you motivated?

7:52 What was that like? Well, I went to a Catholic school. So, I grew up Catholic. I grew up Catholic and pretty devout for the most part. Yeah, every Sunday vacation or at home, we were always, you know, making sure we found a church to go to if we weren't at home. So, pretty strong background in that. Okay. On draft day in 1985, were you watching it on TV? Were you there live? What were you thinking? Where were you? Who was with you? Yeah, there were only a couple guys back then that went live. I mean, the NFL has come a long way and made a lot of money. And with every year, the revenue goes up.

8:33 So, now it's a huge event. And all the swag that people wear and all the goodies and all the barbershops and the makeup that go into that whole thing. I was at my parents' house with my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife. And we were waiting to see what happened. And it was a big day and eventually got a call. And I wasn't expecting to go to the Packers because I guess probably the best shot I had was ending up in Philadelphia at the ninth pick overall in the first round. And the Packers traded up to number seven and took me in the seventh at the seventh pick in the first round.

9:14 So, when you heard your name, what were your first thoughts? You were in California. Were you in Bakersfield? Yeah. Okay. So, Green Bay, what were your first few thoughts? Of course, I was so excited. I mean, I was on the phone with offensive line coach. He said, we're going to pick you. And then I heard my name and we all got excited. And then it was like, I don't even know where Green Bay is. I mean, I'm a Southern California guy, man. I'm like sun, fun, play play kind of guy. But I mean, I was just so honored. And it's like, hey, man, if they want me, I'm going to do everything. I'm going to go up there and play wherever up there. I knew it was somewhere around the Great Lakes.

9:56 It snowed a lot and cold, but. Somewhere in the middle of the country. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of cheese and they are rabid football fans. Oh my gosh. Green Bay in 1985 and decades before and ever since. It's just, I remember going to some games there when you were playing. And I remember going to your house one night after game, you know, you shower and clean up and we go to your house. And I remember somebody knocked on your door and asked directions and then they saw you in like, oh my gosh. So, you know, in Green Bay, not a big town, but everybody that, that I say, everybody that wore the jersey on the team were just heroes to that city.

10:42 And the first time I went to a game there, I have never seen so many people wearing team swag in my life. Our good mutual friend, and I'll tell about him a little bit, Tim Burke, who introduced me to you. Rabid is not even a good word to call him for a Packer fan. Talk about how you knew Tim. Kind of interesting. So, Tim knew our equipment manager. He was in Houston. He was for a while, Red Batty. Yeah. Who just recently retired. And so, Red introduced us and, you know, it was kind of funny because Tim had driven his motor. He and Christine, they had driven their motor home up and they were having a problem because they could, because their heater was out.

11:27 And of course it was, you know, late fall, early winter in Green Bay, Wisconsin. So, it's going to be cold. So, I said, well, you know, you're more than welcome to stay the night. Eventually he figured it out. He turned the valve on, on the gas, on the propane, you know, resource and figured it out. But that started a friendship. And then of course he introduced you and I, and I don't know if you remember this, but I was so Christian music illiterate, right? You were like the first guy I ever met. And I introduced you to a couple of teammates as Wayne Newton. Do you remember that? I felt so embarrassed, man, because I don't remember that.

12:07 Thankfully, I'm glad you don't, but now I'm confessing. They went, oh my gosh, we've seen you in Vegas. You're a lot more pale than we thought. Man, well, you know, Tim continues to be a Packer fan. I've seen, I don't know how many games I've been to with him, but he will beat you bloody if you're sitting by him. When something good happens, he just beats on whoever's next to him, just pounding, pounding with excitement. And one of the things I love about him, aside from the fact that he didn't know to turn on the propane to get the heat to work, you know, we all have our skills and we all have our weaknesses, so I'm not going to, but I'm going to have him on.

12:49 I mean, I talked to him last week and I said, I want you to come on the podcast. He said, man, you are getting to the bottom of the barrel. Aren't you? I said, no, man, this is like the third or fourth one. But he, at one time we went, I guess it was when the Superbowl was either in New Orleans. We'll talk about that. But we went to, what was the dinner that they, the Bart Starr award? Bart Starr award. Is that the Athletes in Action? Yeah. Athletes in Action, Bart Starr award and some breakfast, I think. Yeah. Right. And Tim, I think the statute of limitations has probably expired, but Tim collected silverware used by Bart Starr. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah.

13:29 And so after breakfast was over, we didn't leave with the other thousands of people that were there. He just sort of casually walked up and stuck a fork in his pocket that had been used by his hero, Bart Starr. I think he has a complete set. He might have several play settings. Anyway, just, we had a great time together and saw you play in many games. And I was reading your stats. I don't think I've ever read your stats, but I was looking at- Holding, offsides. Well, yeah, no, no. 12 years. And 12 years, but you recovered 12 fumbles. Yeah. Yeah. When you give up a sack and the guy knocks the snot out of Brett Favre and he fumbles the ball, you better get on that thing.

14:16 Well, of course. Yeah, of course. You were offensive tackle. You weren't recovering fumbles from the other offense. You were recovering your own fumbles, Brett's fumbles. You played four games in 1991 and 96. What happened? Well, in 91, I pulled a hamstring, which is, I'm not that fast. So it's like, how in the world did you do that? But it was a muddy field on practice and a guy, I was bull rushing me in practice and fell on top of me and I did the splits and I popped a hamstring and then tried to come back and popped it again in pregame.

14:59 And then a few weeks later again, then did it in the third quarter against Buffalo and that ended the season right there. So that was a tough one. And then in 96, had a great season. In 95, we went to the NFC championship game down in Dallas against the Cowboys, lost a tough game and went in for kind of a routine. Well, it's not, you know, surgery is never routine, but you know, when you get started getting a couple of scopes here and there, so went in for a routine clean out or what they call routine. And in the rehab, I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to get back to that level. And so I went in before the 96 season and I told, I told Mike Holmgren, the head coach, I said, I just don't think I'm going to be able to make it back.

15:49 I can't figure this. It was a, it was a real sharp pain, like a knife, just twisting in my knee about the size of a dime. And I just couldn't get it out. So they said, well, you know, let's meet with the doctor and let's see if we can figure it out because we'd like to figure out how to have you because it's kind of an important position. If you're healthy, it'd be an asset in size. Well, you don't have to twist my arm. So, and then of course went back and eventually, but I never quite could get back to that form. And the deal was if we can get you back to a level that's competitive in the pros, then yeah. And, and it just wasn't. So I said, you know, that's it.

16:30 So you played how many games that year? Two or three. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Maybe four. When did you played how many years before the amazing Mr. Favre came on the scene? How many years were you in the Packer organization? I played seven years before he got there. You know, it was kind of interesting because, you know, you, you know, you think of the sixties as great era with Vince Lombardi and Bart Stahl, the greats of, you know, Fuzzy Thurston and Ray Nitschke and Forrest Gregg and Jerry Kramer and all of them. But then we had a bunch of lean years, uh, between the seventies, eight.

17:10 And I was a couple of decades of some pretty tough go, but I went back the other day and I was thinking, yeah, yeah. Why don't, what, what'd that look like? Those first seven years, we had one winning season in my first seven years. Wow. I know. And, and no wonder I wanted to get out of there. Did you ever, did you ever consider going, did other teams, uh, what was it? I know trading wasn't what it is now. I mean, players in every sport bounce around now, which is a little disconcerting to us as fans. I always love it that you played for one organization for 12 years. That's awesome. Was there ever an option or a thought to go somewhere else?

17:51 I tried to, I tried a couple of times to make that happen. The Browns were interested in me at one point that I knew of. And then a guy that lived behind my parents' house knew Bobby Bethard, who was the GM at San Diego. And I was like, oh, San Diego. And so I was hoping out and he was saying, Hey, hold tight. We'll try and trade for you. So I was like, all right, man, right on. But it all works out, you know, it all works out. And then far, we picked up far of my eighth year and then Reggie came my ninth year. And then we put that team together and it was great to be part of, it's hard. It's when you're got lean years and you're losing and your culture is losing and people are backbiting each other and, and you start going downhill and you go up, here we go again, you get that losing mentality.

18:39 And so that complete shift of getting a general manager, Ron Wolf, a new president because Packers are owned by the public. They vote on a board of directors, a board of directors, you know, picks a president, Bob Harlan, and then they got Mike Holmgren. And I mean, when I first got there, Wayne, the guys that were before Red Batty, the equipment guy that we, you know, we talked about with that new Tim before Red Batty, when I first got there, the same guys that were equipment managers and trainers were Lombardi's era. They were, they, I mean, they were in their seventies, man. It's like, and you know, they were still using the same techniques in the, from the sixties.

19:21 I was terrible. It was a step down to go from college at USC to the pros. Yeah. But I remember Tim and I were in the equipment room with Red, putting a little American flag, lacing all of your gigantic shoes with new laces and a little teeny tiny American flag down at the toe. And I don't remember what the occasion was, but I remember standing there and all the players were walking around and you talk about giants, man. I, you know, I weighed 135 pounds soaking wet when I graduated from high school and I thought I could play baseball. And I just went to Louisiana Tech to try out and I was surrounded by giants. I think I'll go do music.

20:03 And of course, Brett Favre took you to new places. You wore number 75. And I have to say, whenever I watch the Packers now, I don't get every game, but whenever I watch them and I see somebody wearing number 75, I think, well, you got to take that thing off. You know, it is so funny, you know, I, and cause I do still do work for the NFL in that transition space. So as a, as a part-time consultant, I, we get about, there's eight of us that are transition coaches, all former players, all Christians, all believers, which was an important part of our, as our group when Troy Vincent was the one that kind of got that going. Who's, he was a DB for, and now he's a VP at the league office, but you hear my dog do.

20:50 Yeah. So that's great. Tell me about the transition organization that you have. And it's a faith-based organization. What are the challenges these guys face? Well, you know what? I don't think Tim Burton gets enough credit for this cause he was the one that, that helped my wife and I, he and Christine helped us through that transition. And of course you were on that, um, sport career transition, Alaska fishing trip up there. And, uh, and so, so yeah, you were right there in the midst of, that was like our first, that was like the first sport career transition conference.

21:32 And we did it up in Alaska at a fishing lodge up at Lake Clark. And, uh, Tim, I think one of the first nights he shared the top 10 challenges of transition. And I think of the ones he shared and, you know, it's like finances, uh, relationships, isolation, you know, the physical, you know, what's your body look like now, especially, you know, in sports like hockey and football. But the biggest one was like, what's your identity? What's your purpose or meaning when you're done playing? If, if how I see myself for all those years is as an athlete and I'm no longer that, then who am I? And think about this. I came to know the Lord during my time as a professional athlete.

22:16 I mean, as a, as a sold out follower and disciple or disciple of Jesus. But it's like, if I'm a Christian athlete and that's my identity and I'm no, then I'm no longer a Christian athlete because I'm no longer that. Well, who am I and what am I doing and where am I going and what's my meaning and purpose in life. So I remember that fishing trip because we, there were a bunch of guys with some hockey players, there was some football players, but I remember how inept some of the, the, the, these awesome athletes weren't fishing. They had no idea. Well, you know, there, I was thinking about that a couple of days ago after we talked and, and I remember there was a guy that played, he played both professional hockey and professional baseball and he couldn't catch, I mean, he couldn't catch a fish to save his life.

23:05 Right. But he'd get tangled, he'd catch our lines, he'd get all tangled up. Right. And so I remember I was in the boat with the, with the guide, you know, Rocky, you know, he got his line caught up on one of our lines that we had a fish on and he was pretty, and he was pretty, the guy was pretty depressed cause he couldn't catch, we were all starting to catch fish he couldn't catch anything. So Rocky, Rocky took a dead fish and put the hook on his line and then threw the fish back in. Of course, by the time the line, you know, straightened out and got down, all of a sudden, man, he's got, got the big one on the line. Oh my gosh. I have an intruder. I have an intruder. Come here. Remember this guy? I do.

23:45 Oh my God. Hey Mary, how you doing buddy? Good. How are you? Good man. You're getting big. Yes, I am. He had his 12th birthday yesterday. Well, happy birthday. Thank you. And I know how old you are cause my grandson just turned 12 a couple of weeks ago as well. You know, I love baseball. That's how I met Tim and our friend Tim and he was playing with the Expos at the time and he came to town and a friend introduced us and we just became, we were closer than brothers for years and years cause we, we had the freedom to travel and the means to travel and go places together. We rode motorcycles together.

24:25 But I want to go back to the fishing thing. I remember, you know, I grew up fishing and it was a little disconcerting to me that the fishing in Alaska, and this was a guided a trip. Yeah. They put us on top of these, we called them something, I think we called them pods of salmon. I don't know if they really are pods, they're schools, but there's a pod or whatever and we would just throw into the pod and snag them. Yeah. And I just remember thinking this is not really a very sporting of us, but that was acceptable and we all took home a bunch of nice salmon fillets. But I remember I walked off down the rocky beach by myself cause these guys, like you say, were tangling lines.

25:08 I'm like, I'm getting out of here. I'm going to walk down this beach. And remember we took a float plane into one, one day and landed on the water and we're out there. And I caught a couple of fish and there's brush 10 feet behind me. And I came back and the guy said, where have you been? I said, I just walked down. He said, dude, don't leave the group. He said, if a bear comes out of those woods, I've got to take a shot at him or he's going to get you. If you're holding a fish and a bear comes out, I'm going to have to take a shot at him and then I'm going to have to bury him. And we're going to have to have a vow of silence cause it's worse than killing a person. If you kill an animal without a license or a tag, whatever. Sorry.

25:49 So it was a great fun, but the nights we spent spent together as a group talking about transitions, financial transitions. I mean, like yourself, you successful in high school, big USC, what conference was USC in at the time? PAC 12. Now it's the PAC 2. PAC 2. PAC 12. So successful, successful Green Bay Packers to the Superbowl and which we were at together because you retired in that season in 96 when Packers went to the Superbowl against the pre Tom Brady New England Patriots and won. And you and I were sitting together and I remember looking over, you had your big old arms crossed and you were very melancholy because you're watching your teammates that you'd played with for years celebrating the biggest win in the NFL.

26:41 And you're sitting up in the stands in the Superdome in New Orleans. You remember what that felt like? Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was, it was such a mix, right? Cause you're happy for your teammates and yet just devastatingly sad and grief is a lot of grief and, and yeah. And, and, but a lot of mixed emotions cause you're so jacked and happy and you've worked your whole life to try to get there. Yeah. And that goal and you're so close. I get, like I said earlier, you know, it was like a very, very sharp pain, like a knife being twisted, but only the size of a dime. And it's like, Hey, if I could just get that dime fixed cause the rest of my whole body, I mean, that's like less than 1%.

27:27 It's like, that's what's keeping you. Yeah. So, but, but the backers are so, so generous to me. Uh, they included me in that trip, you know, as though I were on IR and I ended up right. They voted, voted to give me a super bowl ring as part of that team effort. So just very, very grateful for being included. Although, you know, it, it's not the same as if it's a ring that you wear that you, and you were playing and contributing, you know, to, to a full degree. Uh, I'm gonna I'll let you have that. I can't argue with that because I don't know what that feels like, but, but you know what, out of that, out of that, and it was tough for, you know, months and years.

28:14 And out of that challenge, one of the greatest gifts ever in my life, if not the greatest gift, certainly one or two was the song that you wrote for such a time as this. And you mentioned, you know, you dedicated that or whatever you call that. Yeah. And man, just never forget that. It meant so much to me and still means so much to me to this day. Well, you and I stayed up the celebration in New Orleans. They don't need much reason to celebrate in New Orleans, but all the Packer fans in New Orleans, in the French Quarter, the team was staying at the hotel. We were staying at the same hotel and, uh, Reggie White was on that team, right?

28:59 Yes. Reggie, very zealous for Jesus in his life. Uh, did he have some impact on you through those years together? Yeah. I mean, we did, we did some speaking engagements together. His big thing was racial reconciliation and promise keepers in the early and mid nineties was huge and did some speaking again, but we talked, we were in Bible studies together and tried, tried to bring some racial healing within the team. And we were pretty, I mean, you, you know what you're, you're pretty tight as teammates. I mean, Tim and I talk a little bit about one of the things other guys talk about it too. One of the things you miss is not only the diversity of race and ethnicity, but, but how we put that aside as not the most important thing because we were all pulling on the same end of the row to win together.

29:53 So we were brothers in that superseded race and ethnicity. And of course, in this culture today, politics may be is the only thing that Trump's race, uh, you got gender and you got all the woke stuff going on these days. And, and, uh, you know, I miss, I miss that unity where we're all pulling together for one goal and we're supporting each other, putting our own egos on the back burner. And that's what Reggie and Brett both were brought to an amazing players. I think Reggie was further along, obviously in his career and he had, he had already accomplished so much in his own personal career, but it was looking for that super bowl and really showed us all the way along with Brett, who was, you know, he was, Brett was so young.

30:39 I mean, I look, I look like some video interviews of him when he was 22, 23. I mean, I'm married, I got three kids. I got more in common with coaches than I do with this young gunslinging, how lucky wild man, party animal gunslinging quarterback. Yes. I, well, the celebration in New Orleans was going on, but I was going to say, you and I stayed up and talk into the wee hours, I think till two or 3am. And out of that came because I was so, uh, enamored with the fact that at 33, right? When you retired 33, same age as Jesus, when he departed and came back, okay, I'm 33 years old.

31:25 What now? What do I do now? And that's where that song came from. I have sung it in so many occasions for fundraisers, for memorial services and gatherings of all kinds. And, uh, every time I sing it, I think about you and, uh, thankful for what, uh, you have brought to my life. Uh, we've played golf together. We have, we, uh, I remember when you came to Houston one time, we played golf. It was just, it was hilarious. I mean, we're both so good. First of all, we are both just so good at it. And, and you brought such fun to it and I don't play much anymore.

32:07 And even when I do, I realize nobody cares. Just have some fun. I don't even keep score anymore as a, what is the point? Right. I just, and you taught me how to have, have some fun. Uh, I remember going to a Packer game against the dreaded Chicago bears, no offense, Chicago fans that are watching, but at old soldier field and they were throwing little, little cheese at us. We were sitting with your wife and all the other Packer wives and they're throwing balls of cheese at us. Yeah. Cheese, cheese cubes. Oh my gosh, man. And I have feared for my life a few times in my life and going to the men's room at soldier field as a Packer fan was one of those times I was afraid I wasn't going to make it.

32:51 We had a great time after, after football. That's where you are many years past. Since I've known you, I've learned that offensive lineman and I'm not trying to, to blow smoke, but offensive lineman are often the more intelligent of the, uh, the 60 however many men roster on a NFL team. You have your PhD in sociology, your teaching. Is that fulfilling for you? Do you see something else after that? I think the game, games over organization is going to continue to be a big part of your life, right? Well, games over. Yeah. After about eight, eight to 10 years of that, um, I'd started teaching part -time and started enjoying that.

33:34 And, and it was, you know, I started as a nonprofit and of course, raising, you know, raising money's hard period, but raising it for the up and outers, like, like retired athletes is even more challenging. And, but one of the guys I helped early on, and we, we would do conferences up here in Oregon, uh, at a lodge on a lake and the NFL hired him to start the NFL program in 2014. And so he called me up and, and said, Hey, I'd love to have you come help me get this thing going. A lot of the stuff we're doing is exactly in your wheelhouse. I'm like, ah, man, I just put the nail in that baby, you know, a couple of weeks ago.

34:19 And he said, well, think about it. And I said, well, let me ask you this. Are you including the wives in the process? Cause they were going to, you know, they ended up doing, we ended up doing big conferences with like a hundred guys, plus probably 70 or 80 guys brought their wives. So about a hundred, almost 200 people with, with everybody. Amazing, just an amazing conference. So the league finally figured out, let's get this going. Thanks to Troy Vincent, who was a former player. Tell us about Cheryl and your kids. Just tell us where they are, what they're doing now. Yeah. So, uh, we've got two daughters and, uh, one daughter's been married for, gosh, I don't know, 13 years and, and, uh, three grandkids there.

35:04 And then my other daughter recently got married and she's finishing up her master's and going to be a high school, uh, counselor and advisor. So she's, she's excited about that. My wife is a counselor, therapist, Christian counselor, practicing what they call EFT or emotionally focused therapy. So I'm learning a little bit about this stuff, but man, she's so good. And then I have a son-in-law married to my oldest daughter with the grandkids and he's a counselor. And so I was telling somebody the other day and he said, you know what they say about counselors, don't you? Yeah. I know they need more help than anybody else. I said, man, that's my, that's like half my family's counselor. I'm in deep, man, I'm in it.

35:45 But I, you know, I love, I pick up, you know, I teach four days a week, I teach three classes. And so on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I pick my grandkids up from school and we go do stuff with them. So I, I'm so blessed to be able to do that, that they live and both my daughters live close to home. So yeah. Talk a little bit about your perspective on losses. As I grow older, the biggest challenge is managing loss. You suffered, you and Cheryl and your family suffered the, pretty much the ultimate loss. You want to talk about that? Sure. So I'll go back a little bit before that.

36:26 So when I was eight, I was the oldest of three boys, had two brothers and lost my mom at eight. And I could never figure out, you know, what, Lord, why would you take my mom? My youngest brother was like a year and a half. And when I became a believer at age 30, you know, a lot of Christians are like, well, God is good all the time. God is good. And I had a real tough time thinking God is good. I mean, God is God and God will be what God will be. However God decides he's going to be. But you know, in our, in our minds, in my mind, somebody who is a good God, like if I'm on the shore of a river and there's somebody drowning and they stick up their hand and you could save them and you don't save them, you wouldn't call me a good person.

37:20 If that was me, you'd say you dirty rotten. Yeah. Now I don't think God's dirty rotten, but, and so now take, you know, decades of having a tough go with, you know, the idea that God is good. We were over in Portland, my wife and I, I'm doing an interview with a college head coach for a Christian college that's, I'm thinking maybe I want to go teach and coach over in Portland. So I'm doing an interview, my phone's just buzzing in my pocket, but I can't, I'm already in the middle of this, you know, lunch and interview and getting to know this guy. And so finally we connect, my wife somewhere else, I'm in this meeting, our daughter somewhere else.

38:02 We finally connect and we learned that the night before our son was in a motorcycle accident and passed away pretty, pretty, broke his neck and it was a quick and merciful end, but nonetheless a very needless death and, you know, devastated. I mean, just, and I was very angry. I was very angry at him as well for, you know, not being too bright. You know, it's like, why would you get on, you don't have a motorcycle license. You'd been, you know, having too much to drink. You got on this crotch rocket that was your buddy's and you had no business, you know.

38:43 Now, if I remember right, the bike was not his, it belonged to a friend. And didn't the police or the emergency medical call the friend's parents? Oh yeah, man. And told them that their son had died in an accident? He had his buddy's backpack on and his buddy's passport was in the backpack. And so they called, they thought that's who he was. And so they called, boy, what a, it was a mess. But so we're, so my wife, Cheryl and I and our daughter, we're driving back and we're driving back over the mountains and driving along this river and I'm driving, I'm looking at the river and, you know, as I'm driving, just kind of glancing over and my wife's looking at the river and both of us, it's just silent the whole way because, you know, it's just so somber.

39:35 Trying to wrap our heads around this thing, we've got to go back and I got to go identify the body and all that kind of stuff. And this overwhelming feeling comes over me that God is good. And my wife looks over at me and she says, what are you thinking right now? I said, I'm thinking it's the craziest thing. I'm thinking how good God is. And she said, that is so bizarre. I am, I have this overwhelming feeling that God is good as well. Man, what a gift. What a gift.

40:16 That's the thing I would, you know, for decades could not say God is good. And all of a sudden, both of us as we're driving along this river. Yeah. Man, you know what the ultimate irreverence I think that this culture manifests is thinking we know everything. And especially Christians, we've got so much information at our fingertips. We can find questions, we can find answers to every question. And we think, I think even subliminally sometimes we got this figured out.

40:57 I mean, there's no mystery. And then when you go through something like that, the scripture says about the peace that passes understanding. I always amplify that by saying illogical, unexplainable, should not be their peace. You should not be experiencing peace in the hours after losing a son. You should, it's unimaginable that you can even go there. But people who truly know and walk with the Lord and are His and confess Him and hold Him in their hearts. Those are the many perks of knowing Jesus and being possessed by Him.

41:40 And I'm telling you, man, that kind of loss for someone who doesn't walk with the Lord, I think is why so many people are just off the rails and never get back on the rails. You know, it's interesting to me that people find so many other things to try and it's just right there. It's just right there. And so anybody listening, watching this, if you've tried all this other stuff, it's so simple. We believe as Ken believes that Christ has given Himself for us and gives us so many benefits of knowing Him and not only in eternity, but here. And there is no other explanation for what you just said, other than walking with the Lord.

42:26 No way. No way. What a gift. So grateful. And of course, it's still a challenge. I mean, I still, my head turns to, you know, things of this world and the older I get, you know, I think I'm doing a little bit better, uh, you know, is staying in that, that base of peace, you know, Shalom, you know, being, being at peace and trusting. And, you know, I really enjoyed this chosen series and gosh, I just so grateful for, man, Jesus is like in under Roman rule.

43:07 He's under, you know, a religious, you know, totalitarian oligarchy, kind of a oppressive. And He's at peace. Yes. His disciples are trying to figure it out and they can't, and I can relate to that. Oh yeah. They're a mess, which I find very refreshing. I know, I'm like, and that's me. I'm like, yeah, I'm this and I'm that, and I can relate to that. Well, that series and a bunch of other stuff in life makes me realize it's okay to be a mess. A pastor friend of mine talks about God creating the universe in seven days, whatever days were, and he said, some of us are being created. Some of us are on day two. Some of us are on day six.

43:49 Some are just seeing the sunset on day one. It took me a lot of years to give myself a break. Give yourself a break. I mean, you know, if we believe what you and I believe, then nothing we can do can separate us from that, redemption and from that love. And man, I am so thankful that you are a person out there in the face of the culture with the gentle strength that you have for young people, students, for athletes that are in a quandary about what do I do now? My whole identity was being a fullback or a lineman. And now I have plenty of money, but you know, a lot of them don't make it.

44:30 A lot of them don't make it, as you know. So, I'm grateful for you, brother, and I'm so thankful we had this time together. Tom Hanks Well, it's great to be with you, Wayne. Thanks for all that you do and that you continue to do and loving on people, whether it's through a podcast, your family or your church or neighbors. Thank you. Wayne Watson Okay, brother. God bless. Bye-bye. Narrator Thanks for listening to the Wayne Watson Podcast, where stories of faith, purpose, and everyday life meet and continue to uplift hearts around the world. Be sure to follow, leave us a review, and share this episode with a friend. To learn more about Wayne's music, ministry, and upcoming projects, visit Waynewatson.com.

45:14 Every journey of faith begins with a story, and every heart finds its rhythm in the Lord. Until next time, go well, and may you keep walking in step with his song flowing through you.