Life After the Game with Green Bay Packers Legend: Ken Ruettgers

100:00:01.830 --> 00:00:06.070Welcome to the Wayne Watson Podcast, where Grammy nominee and multiple Dove200:00:06.070 --> 00:00:10.130award-winning artist Wayne Watson engages in lively conversation with300:00:10.130 --> 00:00:12.370remarkable people from every walk of life.400:00:12.650 --> 00:00:16.570Artists to healthcare professionals, athletes and leaders to everyday believers500:00:16.570 --> 00:00:20.270whose stories reflect the power of faith at work in the world.600:00:20.530 --> 00:00:24.150Join us as we go beyond the spotlight and into the heart of what it means to700:00:24.150 --> 00:00:27.990live with purpose and conviction, diving into real conversations about the800:00:27.990 --> 00:00:32.350moments that shape us, the faith that sustains us, and the God who inspires it900:00:32.350 --> 00:00:32.570all.1000:00:32.830 --> 00:00:35.010Now, here's your host, Wayne Watson.1100:00:42.260 --> 00:00:43.680Good morning, everyone.1200:00:44.000 --> 00:00:47.540I'm about to record episode three of the Wayne Watson Podcast.1300:00:47.840 --> 00:00:53.840My guest today is a longtime friend, former Green Bay Packer, left offensive1400:00:53.840 --> 00:00:55.220tackle Ken Ruettgers.1500:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.580Ken and I go way back, lots of good stories.1600:00:59.040 --> 00:01:05.520I think you'll find it fascinating, brilliant guy, funny guy, big guy.1700:01:05.960 --> 00:01:07.160So stay with us.1800:01:07.580 --> 00:01:08.420We'll be right there.1900:01:10.280 --> 00:01:16.680This is episode three of a very clever name, the Wayne Watson Podcast.2000:01:16.900 --> 00:01:18.420So thank you for joining me.2100:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.380Now, what's on your agenda for today after we're done with this?2200:01:21.420 --> 00:01:21.960What are you doing?2300:01:22.460 --> 00:01:24.140Well, it's a busy day.2400:01:24.420 --> 00:01:30.400So after this, I'm going to drive to my college that I teach at and do a quick2500:01:30.400 --> 00:01:32.860podcast with John Stockton.2600:01:33.540 --> 00:01:35.320Yeah, former NBA great.2700:01:35.480 --> 00:01:35.840Yes.2800:01:36.680 --> 00:01:41.340And we have a podcast called The Ultimate Assist, kind of health and medical2900:01:41.340 --> 00:01:42.760freedom and that kind of stuff.3000:01:42.780 --> 00:01:45.740And then I have two final exams I'm given today.3100:01:46.120 --> 00:01:47.140So I got a full day.3200:01:47.700 --> 00:01:48.240My gosh.3300:01:48.440 --> 00:01:50.080Now, how do you know John Stockton?3400:01:50.220 --> 00:01:52.500I remember he played for the.3500:01:52.820 --> 00:01:53.340Jazz.3600:01:53.780 --> 00:01:54.540Utah Jazz.3700:01:54.700 --> 00:01:54.880Did he?3800:01:55.220 --> 00:01:57.440Yeah, he's a very recognizable name.3900:01:57.540 --> 00:01:58.340How do you know him?4000:01:58.760 --> 00:01:59.460Well, you know what?4100:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.600Senator Ron Johnson from Wisconsin, who I got to know during the COVID period,4200:02:04.900 --> 00:02:06.080he connected us.4300:02:06.580 --> 00:02:07.580And so, yeah.4400:02:08.320 --> 00:02:13.440So I've been, you know, since we've like connected for just prior to COVID,4500:02:14.520 --> 00:02:20.460man, I mean, being in different spaces and that's kind of I've lived my life in4600:02:20.460 --> 00:02:21.060a lot of spaces.4700:02:21.060 --> 00:02:25.420I'll run into somebody, you know, and I recognize their face, but it's like,4800:02:25.460 --> 00:02:27.460hey, help me put you into the right box.4900:02:28.020 --> 00:02:31.780I've been only only seen you on a Zoom call or a podcast.5000:02:32.480 --> 00:02:32.920I know.5100:02:33.020 --> 00:02:33.560It's great.5200:02:34.140 --> 00:02:34.840That's great.5300:02:35.040 --> 00:02:36.480It's great to be with you, though, Wayne.5400:02:36.560 --> 00:02:41.340It is awesome you and talk with you and catch up a little bit.5500:02:41.340 --> 00:02:41.860Yeah.5600:02:42.160 --> 00:02:44.340I love being able to catch up this way.5700:02:44.580 --> 00:02:45.160Remind me.5800:02:45.440 --> 00:02:46.160I know where you're teaching.5900:02:46.280 --> 00:02:48.440Tell everybody where you're teaching, what you're teaching.6000:02:48.960 --> 00:02:49.160Yeah.6100:02:49.180 --> 00:02:54.680I live out in Central Oregon and teach at a community college, which was kind6200:02:54.680 --> 00:02:55.840of the only game in town.6300:02:56.260 --> 00:03:01.320And so I have my master's in business, but I could teach business, but I got my6400:03:01.320 --> 00:03:08.080PhD in sociology to help find an answer to and a solution to sport career6500:03:08.080 --> 00:03:13.440transition, which is harder than than you want to believe it to be.6600:03:13.880 --> 00:03:16.660So, yeah, so I started teaching sociology.6700:03:16.900 --> 00:03:19.700So, which I find fascinating and challenging.6800:03:21.020 --> 00:03:25.800Well, without divulging too much about your student population, you've told me6900:03:25.800 --> 00:03:31.540that the culture that you find yourself in is you and I are a different era.7000:03:32.040 --> 00:03:38.040And so the culture and the mores and the values are, if not really7100:03:38.040 --> 00:03:41.760authentically different, they're surely stated as different and you have to7200:03:41.760 --> 00:03:45.340navigate verbiage and all that kind of stuff, I'm sure.7300:03:46.200 --> 00:03:50.480Well, that and not only generationally, but Oregon, the whole West Coast, of7400:03:50.480 --> 00:03:53.560course, is a different culture than most of the rest of the country.7500:03:53.720 --> 00:03:58.260And Oregon and Washington were always competing for the most unchurched state7600:03:58.260 --> 00:03:59.220in the union.7700:04:00.900 --> 00:04:02.580Who's in the lead right now?7800:04:03.600 --> 00:04:04.320I don't know.7900:04:04.400 --> 00:04:05.940It's neck and neck every year.8000:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.280We're wanting to be number one.8100:04:10.360 --> 00:04:12.100I'm not sure that's a great...8200:04:12.100 --> 00:04:16.700That's kind of like the worst public school in the nation kind of thing.8300:04:19.260 --> 00:04:19.740Yes.8400:04:20.040 --> 00:04:21.620So, there's some good things in the Northwest.8500:04:21.780 --> 00:04:22.200You're there.8600:04:22.380 --> 00:04:25.520You're digging your heels in, standing ground for the faith.8700:04:25.620 --> 00:04:28.780I want to tell people about you a little bit.8800:04:28.780 --> 00:04:31.820I've known you since the mid to late 90s.8900:04:31.920 --> 00:04:33.240You were born in Bakersfield.9000:04:34.420 --> 00:04:36.740You went to high school in Bakersfield, I guess.9100:04:37.180 --> 00:04:37.280Yes.9200:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.440I always want to know, because you guys that go through the ranks of9300:04:40.440 --> 00:04:43.060professional sports, what was it like in high school?9400:04:43.280 --> 00:04:47.560Were you six foot eight like you are now and buff and ripped and the biggest,9500:04:47.720 --> 00:04:49.420baddest man in the whole town?9600:04:50.200 --> 00:04:51.480No, a lot of guys were.9700:04:51.660 --> 00:04:58.500I mean, I was young for my age, so my goal was coming in as a freshman in high9800:04:58.500 --> 00:05:00.700school, trying as a pebble.9900:05:01.400 --> 00:05:04.200My goal was to be the biggest boulder.10000:05:04.640 --> 00:05:08.180And so, it took me about four years to be a big enough boulder to get a full10100:05:08.180 --> 00:05:09.540-ride scholarship to USC.10200:05:10.020 --> 00:05:13.080And of course, I got there thinking I was all that.10300:05:14.300 --> 00:05:17.900And of course, I was a pebble when I got there, maybe even less than a pebble,10400:05:18.020 --> 00:05:23.340maybe a speck of sand because the guys at USC that were offensive linemen, guys10500:05:23.340 --> 00:05:29.480like Anthony Munoz and Roy Foster and Keith Van Horn and Don Mosbar and Bruce10600:05:29.480 --> 00:05:30.120Matthews.10700:05:30.160 --> 00:05:32.100You know Bruce from- Oh my gosh, yes.10800:05:32.120 --> 00:05:36.480And so, eventually, I became a boulder at USC.10900:05:36.760 --> 00:05:38.420It took five years to get there.11000:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.620And then, was a first-round draft pick for the Green Bay Packers.11100:05:43.220 --> 00:05:43.740Wow.11200:05:44.200 --> 00:05:44.440Yeah.11300:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.260I'm thinking about you as I'm getting ready for this.11400:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.000I'm thinking, were you the star in high school?11500:05:50.100 --> 00:05:52.400And everybody said, oh, Rutgers is going to go to USC.11600:05:52.660 --> 00:05:55.800And USC, you excelled.11700:05:55.960 --> 00:05:58.900And then, to be drafted in the- No, you're shaking your head.11800:05:59.060 --> 00:05:59.160What?11900:05:59.160 --> 00:06:03.700No, I'm shaking my head because I remember- And this happens to a lot of guys,12000:06:03.780 --> 00:06:04.200I think.12100:06:06.020 --> 00:06:09.760You get recruited and you go and you got a lot of teammates that are going, oh,12200:06:09.780 --> 00:06:11.140he'll never make it.12300:06:11.180 --> 00:06:11.940He'll walk out.12400:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.700And I asked guys that are in transition, guys I played with when we were12500:06:17.700 --> 00:06:18.040playing.12600:06:18.360 --> 00:06:23.220I said, did you ever think about going home your freshman year and quitting12700:06:23.220 --> 00:06:24.220college ball?12800:06:24.300 --> 00:06:25.800Because it's a tough transition.12900:06:26.120 --> 00:06:27.720You're 17, 18 years old.13000:06:28.140 --> 00:06:28.980You're with men.13100:06:29.100 --> 00:06:30.980I mean, you're a boy at 17 or 18.13200:06:31.360 --> 00:06:36.140And you're with men that are 22 years old and just getting beat to a pulp.13300:06:36.220 --> 00:06:39.520And almost all of them say, especially on the line, because that's where the13400:06:39.520 --> 00:06:44.260biggest difference of man muscle to boy muscle comes in.13500:06:44.540 --> 00:06:50.440And almost all of them say, yeah, I absolutely felt like I wanted to quit.13600:06:50.520 --> 00:06:51.400I wanted to go home.13700:06:51.600 --> 00:06:55.620And I ask them, and this is true of me too, I ask them, why didn't you?13800:06:56.340 --> 00:06:59.100And almost all of them will say, you know what?13900:06:59.120 --> 00:07:02.580Because I didn't want to come home with my tail tucked between my legs as a14000:07:02.580 --> 00:07:02.880failure.14100:07:03.200 --> 00:07:10.380And whatever that is going on, the fuel that propels them to do great things in14200:07:10.380 --> 00:07:11.560sport and climbing that ladder.14300:07:11.700 --> 00:07:15.180But I coached high school football for about 15 years.14400:07:15.900 --> 00:07:21.580And to answer your question kind of in a different maybe way, you know what?14500:07:21.600 --> 00:07:22.520It's the same game.14600:07:23.440 --> 00:07:27.560I mean, the high school kids don't have to block Bruce Smith or Lawrence Taylor14700:07:27.560 --> 00:07:33.380or Derek Thomas, but they're blocking guys that are challenging at their level.14800:07:33.840 --> 00:07:35.480Guys jump off sides in high school.14900:07:35.680 --> 00:07:36.700We do it in the pros.15000:07:36.900 --> 00:07:38.620We get called for holding in the pros.15100:07:39.280 --> 00:07:40.820High school kids do too.15200:07:41.120 --> 00:07:42.220It's all relative.15300:07:42.440 --> 00:07:43.360So, it's a lot of fun.15400:07:44.440 --> 00:07:46.520What was your church up?15500:07:46.580 --> 00:07:47.680Did you grow up in church?15600:07:47.740 --> 00:07:52.360You grew up with any faith, fire in your heart to keep you motivated?15700:07:52.640 --> 00:07:53.380What was that like?15800:07:53.680 --> 00:07:55.040Well, I went to a Catholic school.15900:07:55.140 --> 00:07:56.140So, I grew up Catholic.16000:07:56.540 --> 00:08:00.100I grew up Catholic and pretty devout for the most part.16100:08:00.260 --> 00:08:04.200Yeah, every Sunday vacation or at home, we were always, you know, making sure16200:08:04.200 --> 00:08:07.000we found a church to go to if we weren't at home.16300:08:07.700 --> 00:08:09.920So, pretty strong background in that.16400:08:11.060 --> 00:08:11.160Okay.16500:08:11.200 --> 00:08:19.640On draft day in 1985, were you watching it on TV?16600:08:19.960 --> 00:08:21.020Were you there live?16700:08:21.320 --> 00:08:22.080What were you thinking?16800:08:22.240 --> 00:08:22.760Where were you?16900:08:22.800 --> 00:08:23.440Who was with you?17000:08:23.780 --> 00:08:26.560Yeah, there were only a couple guys back then that went live.17100:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.120I mean, the NFL has come a long way and made a lot of money.17200:08:30.460 --> 00:08:33.280And with every year, the revenue goes up.17300:08:33.400 --> 00:08:34.860So, now it's a huge event.17400:08:35.380 --> 00:08:42.220And all the swag that people wear and all the goodies and all the barbershops17500:08:42.220 --> 00:08:44.720and the makeup that go into that whole thing.17600:08:44.780 --> 00:08:49.340I was at my parents' house with my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife.17700:08:50.060 --> 00:08:53.300And we were waiting to see what happened.17800:08:53.720 --> 00:08:58.140And it was a big day and eventually got a call.17900:08:58.480 --> 00:09:03.260And I wasn't expecting to go to the Packers because I guess probably the best18000:09:03.260 --> 00:09:07.460shot I had was ending up in Philadelphia at the ninth pick overall in the first18100:09:07.460 --> 00:09:07.840round.18200:09:08.480 --> 00:09:13.080And the Packers traded up to number seven and took me in the seventh at the18300:09:13.080 --> 00:09:14.300seventh pick in the first round.18400:09:14.640 --> 00:09:19.100So, when you heard your name, what were your first thoughts?18500:09:19.260 --> 00:09:20.460You were in California.18600:09:20.880 --> 00:09:21.720Were you in Bakersfield?18700:09:22.000 --> 00:09:22.100Yeah.18800:09:22.320 --> 00:09:22.640Okay.18900:09:23.120 --> 00:09:26.060So, Green Bay, what were your first few thoughts?19000:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.420Of course, I was so excited.19100:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.140I mean, I was on the phone with offensive line coach.19200:09:31.240 --> 00:09:32.040He said, we're going to pick you.19300:09:32.100 --> 00:09:34.860And then I heard my name and we all got excited.19400:09:35.620 --> 00:09:39.580And then it was like, I don't even know where Green Bay is.19500:09:40.100 --> 00:09:42.460I mean, I'm a Southern California guy, man.19600:09:42.480 --> 00:09:45.940I'm like sun, fun, play play kind of guy.19700:09:46.500 --> 00:09:48.260But I mean, I was just so honored.19800:09:48.560 --> 00:09:51.120And it's like, hey, man, if they want me, I'm going to do everything.19900:09:51.240 --> 00:09:53.920I'm going to go up there and play wherever up there.20000:09:54.000 --> 00:09:55.800I knew it was somewhere around the Great Lakes.20100:09:56.840 --> 00:10:00.540It snowed a lot and cold, but.20200:10:01.640 --> 00:10:03.400Somewhere in the middle of the country.20300:10:03.600 --> 00:10:04.160Yeah, exactly.20400:10:04.700 --> 00:10:08.620There's a lot of cheese and they are rabid football fans.20500:10:08.960 --> 00:10:09.560Oh my gosh.20600:10:09.680 --> 00:10:15.000Green Bay in 1985 and decades before and ever since.20700:10:15.160 --> 00:10:18.540It's just, I remember going to some games there when you were playing.20800:10:18.740 --> 00:10:23.380And I remember going to your house one night after game, you know, you shower20900:10:23.380 --> 00:10:25.280and clean up and we go to your house.21000:10:25.460 --> 00:10:29.900And I remember somebody knocked on your door and asked directions and then they21100:10:29.900 --> 00:10:31.740saw you in like, oh my gosh.21200:10:32.000 --> 00:10:37.320So, you know, in Green Bay, not a big town, but everybody that, that I say,21300:10:37.380 --> 00:10:42.440everybody that wore the jersey on the team were just heroes to that city.21400:10:42.680 --> 00:10:47.080And the first time I went to a game there, I have never seen so many people21500:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.240wearing team swag in my life.21600:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.760Our good mutual friend, and I'll tell about him a little bit, Tim Burke, who21700:10:54.760 --> 00:10:55.780introduced me to you.21800:10:56.000 --> 00:11:00.400Rabid is not even a good word to call him for a Packer fan.21900:11:00.800 --> 00:11:02.160Talk about how you knew Tim.22000:11:03.120 --> 00:11:04.080Kind of interesting.22100:11:04.260 --> 00:11:08.560So, Tim knew our equipment manager.22200:11:09.540 --> 00:11:10.860He was in Houston.22300:11:11.040 --> 00:11:12.580He was for a while, Red Batty.22400:11:12.980 --> 00:11:13.260Yeah.22500:11:13.640 --> 00:11:14.800Who just recently retired.22600:11:14.920 --> 00:11:20.040And so, Red introduced us and, you know, it was kind of funny because Tim had22700:11:20.040 --> 00:11:20.720driven his motor.22800:11:20.880 --> 00:11:24.340He and Christine, they had driven their motor home up and they were having a22900:11:24.340 --> 00:11:27.400problem because they could, because their heater was out.23000:11:27.420 --> 00:11:31.100And of course it was, you know, late fall, early winter in Green Bay,23100:11:31.180 --> 00:11:31.720Wisconsin.23200:11:31.940 --> 00:11:32.720So, it's going to be cold.23300:11:32.920 --> 00:11:35.280So, I said, well, you know, you're more than welcome to stay the night.23400:11:35.420 --> 00:11:36.920Eventually he figured it out.23500:11:37.120 --> 00:11:43.460He turned the valve on, on the gas, on the propane, you know, resource and23600:11:43.460 --> 00:11:44.660figured it out.23700:11:44.900 --> 00:11:46.700But that started a friendship.23800:11:46.980 --> 00:11:50.740And then of course he introduced you and I, and I don't know if you remember23900:11:50.740 --> 00:11:55.340this, but I was so Christian music illiterate, right?24000:11:55.340 --> 00:11:57.580You were like the first guy I ever met.24100:11:57.640 --> 00:12:00.500And I introduced you to a couple of teammates as Wayne Newton.24200:12:00.620 --> 00:12:01.360Do you remember that?24300:12:02.520 --> 00:12:07.240I felt so embarrassed, man, because I don't remember that.24400:12:07.580 --> 00:12:11.720Thankfully, I'm glad you don't, but now I'm confessing.24500:12:11.980 --> 00:12:14.000They went, oh my gosh, we've seen you in Vegas.24600:12:14.900 --> 00:12:16.760You're a lot more pale than we thought.24700:12:20.260 --> 00:12:24.580Man, well, you know, Tim continues to be a Packer fan.24800:12:24.780 --> 00:12:27.700I've seen, I don't know how many games I've been to with him, but he will beat24900:12:27.700 --> 00:12:29.340you bloody if you're sitting by him.25000:12:29.560 --> 00:12:33.320When something good happens, he just beats on whoever's next to him, just25100:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.840pounding, pounding with excitement.25200:12:36.400 --> 00:12:41.480And one of the things I love about him, aside from the fact that he didn't know25300:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.060to turn on the propane to get the heat to work, you know, we all have our25400:12:44.060 --> 00:12:48.640skills and we all have our weaknesses, so I'm not going to, but I'm going to25500:12:48.640 --> 00:12:49.360have him on.25600:12:49.500 --> 00:12:52.720I mean, I talked to him last week and I said, I want you to come on the25700:12:52.720 --> 00:12:53.220podcast.25800:12:53.280 --> 00:12:55.480He said, man, you are getting to the bottom of the barrel.25900:12:55.580 --> 00:12:55.960Aren't you?26000:12:56.040 --> 00:12:58.620I said, no, man, this is like the third or fourth one.26100:12:59.120 --> 00:13:05.880But he, at one time we went, I guess it was when the Superbowl was either in26200:13:05.880 --> 00:13:06.440New Orleans.26300:13:06.560 --> 00:13:07.620We'll talk about that.26400:13:07.880 --> 00:13:11.660But we went to, what was the dinner that they, the Bart Starr award?26500:13:11.960 --> 00:13:12.540Bart Starr award.26600:13:12.620 --> 00:13:13.720Is that the Athletes in Action?26700:13:14.100 --> 00:13:14.400Yeah.26800:13:14.580 --> 00:13:17.320Athletes in Action, Bart Starr award and some breakfast, I think.26900:13:17.420 --> 00:13:17.560Yeah.27000:13:17.920 --> 00:13:18.400Right.27100:13:18.540 --> 00:13:23.340And Tim, I think the statute of limitations has probably expired, but Tim27200:13:23.340 --> 00:13:26.020collected silverware used by Bart Starr.27300:13:27.300 --> 00:13:28.360Did you know that?27400:13:28.780 --> 00:13:29.040Yeah.27500:13:29.260 --> 00:13:29.380Yeah.27600:13:29.660 --> 00:13:34.440And so after breakfast was over, we didn't leave with the other thousands of27700:13:34.440 --> 00:13:35.260people that were there.27800:13:35.340 --> 00:13:41.380He just sort of casually walked up and stuck a fork in his pocket that had been27900:13:41.380 --> 00:13:44.480used by his hero, Bart Starr.28000:13:44.600 --> 00:13:45.880I think he has a complete set.28100:13:45.940 --> 00:13:47.400He might have several play settings.28200:13:48.560 --> 00:13:54.020Anyway, just, we had a great time together and saw you play in many games.28300:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.100And I was reading your stats.28400:13:56.140 --> 00:13:59.560I don't think I've ever read your stats, but I was looking at- Holding,28500:13:59.880 --> 00:14:00.720offsides.28600:14:00.720 --> 00:14:02.100Well, yeah, no, no.28700:14:02.380 --> 00:14:03.48012 years.28800:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.980And 12 years, but you recovered 12 fumbles.28900:14:07.580 --> 00:14:08.000Yeah.29000:14:08.380 --> 00:14:08.700Yeah.29100:14:08.700 --> 00:14:12.180When you give up a sack and the guy knocks the snot out of Brett Favre and he29200:14:12.180 --> 00:14:14.000fumbles the ball, you better get on that thing.29300:14:16.570 --> 00:14:17.430Well, of course.29400:14:17.610 --> 00:14:18.310Yeah, of course.29500:14:18.430 --> 00:14:19.610You were offensive tackle.29600:14:19.870 --> 00:14:23.930You weren't recovering fumbles from the other offense.29700:14:23.990 --> 00:14:26.590You were recovering your own fumbles, Brett's fumbles.29800:14:27.550 --> 00:14:33.630You played four games in 1991 and 96.29900:14:34.890 --> 00:14:35.670What happened?30000:14:36.750 --> 00:14:42.290Well, in 91, I pulled a hamstring, which is, I'm not that fast.30100:14:42.430 --> 00:14:44.130So it's like, how in the world did you do that?30200:14:44.210 --> 00:14:49.210But it was a muddy field on practice and a guy, I was bull rushing me in30300:14:49.210 --> 00:14:53.650practice and fell on top of me and I did the splits and I popped a hamstring30400:14:53.650 --> 00:14:59.550and then tried to come back and popped it again in pregame.30500:14:59.770 --> 00:15:04.610And then a few weeks later again, then did it in the third quarter against30600:15:04.610 --> 00:15:07.510Buffalo and that ended the season right there.30700:15:07.770 --> 00:15:09.410So that was a tough one.30800:15:09.550 --> 00:15:12.290And then in 96, had a great season.30900:15:12.470 --> 00:15:17.850In 95, we went to the NFC championship game down in Dallas against the Cowboys,31000:15:17.970 --> 00:15:22.730lost a tough game and went in for kind of a routine.31100:15:23.310 --> 00:15:26.730Well, it's not, you know, surgery is never routine, but you know, when you get31200:15:26.730 --> 00:15:29.430started getting a couple of scopes here and there, so went in for a routine31300:15:29.430 --> 00:15:30.970clean out or what they call routine.31400:15:31.330 --> 00:15:36.650And in the rehab, I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to get back31500:15:36.650 --> 00:15:38.090to that level.31600:15:39.050 --> 00:15:45.990And so I went in before the 96 season and I told, I told Mike Holmgren, the31700:15:45.990 --> 00:15:49.330head coach, I said, I just don't think I'm going to be able to make it back.31800:15:49.430 --> 00:15:50.870I can't figure this.31900:15:51.050 --> 00:15:55.030It was a, it was a real sharp pain, like a knife, just twisting in my knee32000:15:55.030 --> 00:15:56.330about the size of a dime.32100:15:56.910 --> 00:15:58.410And I just couldn't get it out.32200:15:58.630 --> 00:16:03.070So they said, well, you know, let's meet with the doctor and let's see if we32300:16:03.070 --> 00:16:06.830can figure it out because we'd like to figure out how to have you because it's32400:16:06.830 --> 00:16:08.110kind of an important position.32500:16:08.110 --> 00:16:10.550If you're healthy, it'd be an asset in size.32600:16:10.670 --> 00:16:11.950Well, you don't have to twist my arm.32700:16:12.090 --> 00:16:17.630So, and then of course went back and eventually, but I never quite could get32800:16:17.630 --> 00:16:18.570back to that form.32900:16:18.570 --> 00:16:25.130And the deal was if we can get you back to a level that's competitive in the33000:16:25.130 --> 00:16:26.550pros, then yeah.33100:16:27.090 --> 00:16:28.310And, and it just wasn't.33200:16:28.390 --> 00:16:29.750So I said, you know, that's it.33300:16:30.410 --> 00:16:32.770So you played how many games that year?33400:16:33.150 --> 00:16:33.970Two or three.33500:16:34.370 --> 00:16:34.550Yeah.33600:16:34.590 --> 00:16:35.150Oh, really?33700:16:35.150 --> 00:16:35.590Yeah.33800:16:36.170 --> 00:16:37.010Maybe four.33900:16:38.010 --> 00:16:43.890When did you played how many years before the amazing Mr. Favre came on the34000:16:43.890 --> 00:16:44.130scene?34100:16:44.210 --> 00:16:46.170How many years were you in the Packer organization?34200:16:46.710 --> 00:16:49.110I played seven years before he got there.34300:16:49.190 --> 00:16:51.310You know, it was kind of interesting because, you know, you, you know, you34400:16:51.310 --> 00:16:56.910think of the sixties as great era with Vince Lombardi and Bart Stahl, the34500:16:56.910 --> 00:17:03.810greats of, you know, Fuzzy Thurston and Ray Nitschke and Forrest Gregg and34600:17:03.810 --> 00:17:05.950Jerry Kramer and all of them.34700:17:06.369 --> 00:17:10.109But then we had a bunch of lean years, uh, between the seventies, eight.34800:17:10.450 --> 00:17:14.829And I was a couple of decades of some pretty tough go, but I went back the34900:17:14.829 --> 00:17:16.790other day and I was thinking, yeah, yeah.35000:17:16.890 --> 00:17:18.569Why don't, what, what'd that look like?35100:17:18.569 --> 00:17:23.650Those first seven years, we had one winning season in my first seven years.35200:17:23.650 --> 00:17:24.390Wow.35300:17:24.810 --> 00:17:25.089I know.35400:17:25.290 --> 00:17:27.569And, and no wonder I wanted to get out of there.35500:17:29.890 --> 00:17:35.890Did you ever, did you ever consider going, did other teams, uh, what was it?35600:17:35.970 --> 00:17:37.770I know trading wasn't what it is now.35700:17:37.850 --> 00:17:41.790I mean, players in every sport bounce around now, which is a little35800:17:41.790 --> 00:17:43.470disconcerting to us as fans.35900:17:43.750 --> 00:17:47.990I always love it that you played for one organization for 12 years.36000:17:48.250 --> 00:17:49.010That's awesome.36100:17:49.170 --> 00:17:51.870Was there ever an option or a thought to go somewhere else?36200:17:51.870 --> 00:17:55.390I tried to, I tried a couple of times to make that happen.36300:17:55.530 --> 00:17:59.270The Browns were interested in me at one point that I knew of.36400:17:59.430 --> 00:18:04.950And then a guy that lived behind my parents' house knew Bobby Bethard, who was36500:18:04.950 --> 00:18:06.330the GM at San Diego.36600:18:06.330 --> 00:18:07.850And I was like, oh, San Diego.36700:18:07.990 --> 00:18:12.010And so I was hoping out and he was saying, Hey, hold tight.36800:18:12.030 --> 00:18:13.190We'll try and trade for you.36900:18:13.210 --> 00:18:15.490So I was like, all right, man, right on.37000:18:15.690 --> 00:18:17.910But it all works out, you know, it all works out.37100:18:17.910 --> 00:18:23.070And then far, we picked up far of my eighth year and then Reggie came my ninth37200:18:23.070 --> 00:18:23.430year.37300:18:23.670 --> 00:18:28.210And then we put that team together and it was great to be part of, it's hard.37400:18:28.330 --> 00:18:32.050It's when you're got lean years and you're losing and your culture is losing37500:18:32.050 --> 00:18:36.650and people are backbiting each other and, and you start going downhill and you37600:18:36.650 --> 00:18:39.490go up, here we go again, you get that losing mentality.37700:18:39.490 --> 00:18:45.090And so that complete shift of getting a general manager, Ron Wolf, a new37800:18:45.090 --> 00:18:48.350president because Packers are owned by the public.37900:18:48.550 --> 00:18:52.670They vote on a board of directors, a board of directors, you know, picks a38000:18:52.670 --> 00:18:55.630president, Bob Harlan, and then they got Mike Holmgren.38100:18:56.010 --> 00:19:00.270And I mean, when I first got there, Wayne, the guys that were before Red Batty,38200:19:00.350 --> 00:19:04.390the equipment guy that we, you know, we talked about with that new Tim before38300:19:04.390 --> 00:19:09.670Red Batty, when I first got there, the same guys that were equipment managers38400:19:09.670 --> 00:19:12.590and trainers were Lombardi's era.38500:19:12.790 --> 00:19:16.230They were, they, I mean, they were in their seventies, man.38600:19:16.530 --> 00:19:21.090It's like, and you know, they were still using the same techniques in the, from38700:19:21.090 --> 00:19:21.670the sixties.38800:19:21.770 --> 00:19:22.510I was terrible.38900:19:22.550 --> 00:19:26.950It was a step down to go from college at USC to the pros.39000:19:27.290 --> 00:19:27.770Yeah.39100:19:29.010 --> 00:19:33.610But I remember Tim and I were in the equipment room with Red, putting a little39200:19:33.610 --> 00:19:40.330American flag, lacing all of your gigantic shoes with new laces and a little39300:19:40.330 --> 00:19:42.630teeny tiny American flag down at the toe.39400:19:42.730 --> 00:19:46.570And I don't remember what the occasion was, but I remember standing there and39500:19:46.570 --> 00:19:49.510all the players were walking around and you talk about giants, man.39600:19:49.730 --> 00:19:53.490I, you know, I weighed 135 pounds soaking wet when I graduated from high school39700:19:53.490 --> 00:19:54.730and I thought I could play baseball.39800:19:55.110 --> 00:20:01.010And I just went to Louisiana Tech to try out and I was surrounded by giants.39900:20:01.010 --> 00:20:03.190I think I'll go do music.40000:20:03.550 --> 00:20:06.470And of course, Brett Favre took you to new places.40100:20:06.650 --> 00:20:07.630You wore number 75.40200:20:07.890 --> 00:20:12.170And I have to say, whenever I watch the Packers now, I don't get every game,40300:20:12.230 --> 00:20:15.710but whenever I watch them and I see somebody wearing number 75, I think, well,40400:20:15.730 --> 00:20:17.310you got to take that thing off.40500:20:17.850 --> 00:20:22.950You know, it is so funny, you know, I, and cause I do still do work for the NFL40600:20:22.950 --> 00:20:24.490in that transition space.40700:20:24.710 --> 00:20:29.910So as a, as a part-time consultant, I, we get about, there's eight of us that40800:20:29.910 --> 00:20:34.190are transition coaches, all former players, all Christians, all believers,40900:20:34.190 --> 00:20:41.570which was an important part of our, as our group when Troy Vincent was the one41000:20:41.570 --> 00:20:42.690that kind of got that going.41100:20:42.810 --> 00:20:49.610Who's, he was a DB for, and now he's a VP at the league office, but you hear my41200:20:49.610 --> 00:20:50.410dog do.41300:20:50.590 --> 00:20:50.810Yeah.41400:20:51.550 --> 00:20:52.970So that's great.41500:20:55.420 --> 00:20:58.680Tell me about the transition organization that you have.41600:20:58.840 --> 00:21:02.040And it's a faith-based organization.41700:21:02.180 --> 00:21:04.500What are the challenges these guys face?41800:21:05.320 --> 00:21:05.900Well, you know what?41900:21:05.980 --> 00:21:10.320I don't think Tim Burton gets enough credit for this cause he was the one that,42000:21:10.320 --> 00:21:15.820that helped my wife and I, he and Christine helped us through that transition.42100:21:15.880 --> 00:21:21.300And of course you were on that, um, sport career transition, Alaska fishing42200:21:21.300 --> 00:21:22.320trip up there.42300:21:22.720 --> 00:21:27.840And, uh, and so, so yeah, you were right there in the midst of, that was like42400:21:27.840 --> 00:21:32.320our first, that was like the first sport career transition conference.42500:21:32.320 --> 00:21:36.520And we did it up in Alaska at a fishing lodge up at Lake Clark.42600:21:37.260 --> 00:21:41.660And, uh, Tim, I think one of the first nights he shared the top 10 challenges42700:21:41.660 --> 00:21:42.420of transition.42800:21:43.240 --> 00:21:48.280And I think of the ones he shared and, you know, it's like finances, uh,42900:21:48.280 --> 00:21:53.400relationships, isolation, you know, the physical, you know, what's your body43000:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.060look like now, especially, you know, in sports like hockey and football.43100:21:57.280 --> 00:21:59.820But the biggest one was like, what's your identity?43200:22:00.080 --> 00:22:02.460What's your purpose or meaning when you're done playing?43300:22:02.580 --> 00:22:08.780If, if how I see myself for all those years is as an athlete and I'm no longer43400:22:08.780 --> 00:22:10.780that, then who am I?43500:22:10.920 --> 00:22:12.080And think about this.43600:22:12.280 --> 00:22:16.360I came to know the Lord during my time as a professional athlete.43700:22:16.500 --> 00:22:21.460I mean, as a, as a sold out follower and disciple or disciple of Jesus.43800:22:21.740 --> 00:22:28.200But it's like, if I'm a Christian athlete and that's my identity and I'm no,43900:22:28.600 --> 00:22:31.440then I'm no longer a Christian athlete because I'm no longer that.44000:22:31.540 --> 00:22:35.680Well, who am I and what am I doing and where am I going and what's my meaning44100:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.640and purpose in life.44200:22:36.940 --> 00:22:42.500So I remember that fishing trip because we, there were a bunch of guys with44300:22:42.500 --> 00:22:47.220some hockey players, there was some football players, but I remember how inept44400:22:47.220 --> 00:22:50.840some of the, the, the, these awesome athletes weren't fishing.44500:22:51.000 --> 00:22:51.940They had no idea.44600:22:52.280 --> 00:22:56.140Well, you know, there, I was thinking about that a couple of days ago after we44700:22:56.140 --> 00:22:58.660talked and, and I remember there was a guy that played, he played both44800:22:58.660 --> 00:23:03.340professional hockey and professional baseball and he couldn't catch, I mean, he44900:23:03.340 --> 00:23:05.100couldn't catch a fish to save his life.45000:23:05.200 --> 00:23:05.320Right.45100:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.540But he'd get tangled, he'd catch our lines, he'd get all tangled up.45200:23:08.700 --> 00:23:08.840Right.45300:23:08.960 --> 00:23:14.100And so I remember I was in the boat with the, with the guide, you know, Rocky,45400:23:14.380 --> 00:23:18.660you know, he got his line caught up on one of our lines that we had a fish on45500:23:18.660 --> 00:23:21.600and he was pretty, and he was pretty, the guy was pretty depressed cause he45600:23:21.600 --> 00:23:24.360couldn't catch, we were all starting to catch fish he couldn't catch anything.45700:23:24.900 --> 00:23:30.520So Rocky, Rocky took a dead fish and put the hook on his line and then threw45800:23:30.520 --> 00:23:31.440the fish back in.45900:23:31.520 --> 00:23:34.840Of course, by the time the line, you know, straightened out and got down, all46000:23:34.840 --> 00:23:37.680of a sudden, man, he's got, got the big one on the line.46100:23:38.140 --> 00:23:38.720Oh my gosh.46200:23:39.220 --> 00:23:40.180I have an intruder.46300:23:40.400 --> 00:23:41.160I have an intruder.46400:23:41.280 --> 00:23:42.140Come here.46500:23:43.200 --> 00:23:44.380Remember this guy?46600:23:44.580 --> 00:23:45.220I do.46700:23:45.340 --> 00:23:45.980Oh my God.46800:23:46.080 --> 00:23:47.620Hey Mary, how you doing buddy?46900:23:47.620 --> 00:23:48.140Good.47000:23:48.300 --> 00:23:48.800How are you?47100:23:48.980 --> 00:23:50.440Good man.47200:23:50.560 --> 00:23:51.640You're getting big.47300:23:51.880 --> 00:23:52.980Yes, I am.47400:23:53.020 --> 00:23:54.880He had his 12th birthday yesterday.47500:23:55.160 --> 00:23:56.020Well, happy birthday.47600:23:56.520 --> 00:23:57.320Thank you.47700:23:57.580 --> 00:24:00.940And I know how old you are cause my grandson just turned 12 a couple of weeks47800:24:00.940 --> 00:24:01.660ago as well.47900:24:03.140 --> 00:24:05.700You know, I love baseball.48000:24:05.880 --> 00:24:10.960That's how I met Tim and our friend Tim and he was playing with the Expos at48100:24:10.960 --> 00:24:16.580the time and he came to town and a friend introduced us and we just became, we48200:24:16.580 --> 00:24:21.320were closer than brothers for years and years cause we, we had the freedom to48300:24:21.320 --> 00:24:24.060travel and the means to travel and go places together.48400:24:24.220 --> 00:24:25.420We rode motorcycles together.48500:24:25.740 --> 00:24:28.160But I want to go back to the fishing thing.48600:24:28.240 --> 00:24:33.740I remember, you know, I grew up fishing and it was a little disconcerting to me48700:24:33.740 --> 00:24:38.020that the fishing in Alaska, and this was a guided a trip.48800:24:38.460 --> 00:24:38.620Yeah.48900:24:38.880 --> 00:24:44.100They put us on top of these, we called them something, I think we called them49000:24:44.100 --> 00:24:45.200pods of salmon.49100:24:45.300 --> 00:24:48.840I don't know if they really are pods, they're schools, but there's a pod or49200:24:48.840 --> 00:24:52.460whatever and we would just throw into the pod and snag them.49300:24:52.760 --> 00:24:53.100Yeah.49400:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.220And I just remember thinking this is not really a very sporting of us, but that49500:24:58.220 --> 00:25:02.460was acceptable and we all took home a bunch of nice salmon fillets.49600:25:02.700 --> 00:25:07.220But I remember I walked off down the rocky beach by myself cause these guys,49700:25:07.360 --> 00:25:08.760like you say, were tangling lines.49800:25:08.860 --> 00:25:09.740I'm like, I'm getting out of here.49900:25:09.780 --> 00:25:11.060I'm going to walk down this beach.50000:25:11.260 --> 00:25:15.500And remember we took a float plane into one, one day and landed on the water50100:25:15.500 --> 00:25:16.260and we're out there.50200:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.040And I caught a couple of fish and there's brush 10 feet behind me.50300:25:21.060 --> 00:25:23.020And I came back and the guy said, where have you been?50400:25:23.060 --> 00:25:23.940I said, I just walked down.50500:25:23.980 --> 00:25:25.360He said, dude, don't leave the group.50600:25:25.680 --> 00:25:30.840He said, if a bear comes out of those woods, I've got to take a shot at him or50700:25:30.840 --> 00:25:31.700he's going to get you.50800:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.920If you're holding a fish and a bear comes out, I'm going to have to take a shot50900:25:35.920 --> 00:25:37.660at him and then I'm going to have to bury him.51000:25:37.740 --> 00:25:41.700And we're going to have to have a vow of silence cause it's worse than killing51100:25:41.700 --> 00:25:42.220a person.51200:25:42.560 --> 00:25:46.520If you kill an animal without a license or a tag, whatever.51300:25:48.020 --> 00:25:48.420Sorry.51400:25:49.160 --> 00:25:53.760So it was a great fun, but the nights we spent spent together as a group51500:25:53.760 --> 00:25:57.500talking about transitions, financial transitions.51600:25:57.500 --> 00:26:04.560I mean, like yourself, you successful in high school, big USC, what conference51700:26:04.560 --> 00:26:05.940was USC in at the time?51800:26:06.500 --> 00:26:06.840PAC 12.51900:26:07.100 --> 00:26:08.000Now it's the PAC 2.52000:26:08.540 --> 00:26:09.280PAC 2.52100:26:09.500 --> 00:26:10.060PAC 12.52200:26:10.360 --> 00:26:16.220So successful, successful Green Bay Packers to the Superbowl and which we were52300:26:16.220 --> 00:26:23.160at together because you retired in that season in 96 when Packers went to the52400:26:23.160 --> 00:26:28.360Superbowl against the pre Tom Brady New England Patriots and won.52500:26:28.480 --> 00:26:32.420And you and I were sitting together and I remember looking over, you had your52600:26:32.420 --> 00:26:35.980big old arms crossed and you were very melancholy because you're watching your52700:26:35.980 --> 00:26:40.160teammates that you'd played with for years celebrating the biggest win in the52800:26:40.160 --> 00:26:40.400NFL.52900:26:41.280 --> 00:26:44.500And you're sitting up in the stands in the Superdome in New Orleans.53000:26:44.500 --> 00:26:46.120You remember what that felt like?53100:26:46.360 --> 00:26:47.000Oh my gosh.53200:26:47.060 --> 00:26:47.220Yeah.53300:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.520It was, it was such a mix, right?53400:26:50.540 --> 00:26:57.280Cause you're happy for your teammates and yet just devastatingly sad and grief53500:26:57.280 --> 00:27:01.240is a lot of grief and, and yeah.53600:27:01.340 --> 00:27:06.140And, and, but a lot of mixed emotions cause you're so jacked and happy and53700:27:06.140 --> 00:27:08.560you've worked your whole life to try to get there.53800:27:08.880 --> 00:27:09.360Yeah.53900:27:09.760 --> 00:27:12.380And that goal and you're so close.54000:27:12.520 --> 00:27:17.140I get, like I said earlier, you know, it was like a very, very sharp pain, like54100:27:17.140 --> 00:27:20.280a knife being twisted, but only the size of a dime.54200:27:20.280 --> 00:27:25.000And it's like, Hey, if I could just get that dime fixed cause the rest of my54300:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.120whole body, I mean, that's like less than 1%.54400:27:27.120 --> 00:27:28.880It's like, that's what's keeping you.54500:27:29.340 --> 00:27:29.820Yeah.54600:27:30.140 --> 00:27:35.240So, but, but the backers are so, so generous to me.54700:27:35.240 --> 00:27:40.700Uh, they included me in that trip, you know, as though I were on IR and I ended54800:27:40.700 --> 00:27:41.260up right.54900:27:41.960 --> 00:27:46.480They voted, voted to give me a super bowl ring as part of that team effort.55000:27:46.500 --> 00:27:50.500So just very, very grateful for being included.55100:27:50.720 --> 00:27:55.460Although, you know, it, it's not the same as if it's a ring that you wear that55200:27:55.460 --> 00:27:59.620you, and you were playing and contributing, you know, to, to a full degree.55300:28:01.720 --> 00:28:04.200Uh, I'm gonna I'll let you have that.55400:28:04.540 --> 00:28:09.900I can't argue with that because I don't know what that feels like, but, but you55500:28:09.900 --> 00:28:14.400know what, out of that, out of that, and it was tough for, you know, months and55600:28:14.400 --> 00:28:14.700years.55700:28:14.700 --> 00:28:21.360And out of that challenge, one of the greatest gifts ever in my life, if not55800:28:21.360 --> 00:28:27.280the greatest gift, certainly one or two was the song that you wrote for such a55900:28:27.280 --> 00:28:28.060time as this.56000:28:28.300 --> 00:28:32.660And you mentioned, you know, you dedicated that or whatever you call that.56100:28:32.920 --> 00:28:33.020Yeah.56200:28:35.740 --> 00:28:38.240And man, just never forget that.56300:28:38.320 --> 00:28:42.620It meant so much to me and still means so much to me to this day.56400:28:43.460 --> 00:28:46.820Well, you and I stayed up the celebration in New Orleans.56500:28:46.940 --> 00:28:50.640They don't need much reason to celebrate in New Orleans, but all the Packer56600:28:50.640 --> 00:28:54.520fans in New Orleans, in the French Quarter, the team was staying at the hotel.56700:28:54.680 --> 00:28:58.460We were staying at the same hotel and, uh, Reggie White was on that team,56800:28:58.580 --> 00:28:58.940right?56900:28:59.580 --> 00:28:59.680Yes.57000:29:01.480 --> 00:29:05.160Reggie, very zealous for Jesus in his life.57100:29:05.780 --> 00:29:09.520Uh, did he have some impact on you through those years together?57200:29:10.020 --> 00:29:10.540Yeah.57300:29:10.560 --> 00:29:12.840I mean, we did, we did some speaking engagements together.57400:29:12.920 --> 00:29:16.920His big thing was racial reconciliation and promise keepers in the early and57500:29:16.920 --> 00:29:22.260mid nineties was huge and did some speaking again, but we talked, we were in57600:29:22.260 --> 00:29:27.440Bible studies together and tried, tried to bring some racial healing within the57700:29:27.440 --> 00:29:27.820team.57800:29:28.000 --> 00:29:31.440And we were pretty, I mean, you, you know what you're, you're pretty tight as57900:29:31.440 --> 00:29:31.820teammates.58000:29:31.820 --> 00:29:37.060I mean, Tim and I talk a little bit about one of the things other guys talk58100:29:37.060 --> 00:29:37.680about it too.58200:29:37.800 --> 00:29:43.000One of the things you miss is not only the diversity of race and ethnicity,58300:29:43.000 --> 00:29:50.400but, but how we put that aside as not the most important thing because we were58400:29:50.400 --> 00:29:53.380all pulling on the same end of the row to win together.58500:29:53.580 --> 00:29:56.540So we were brothers in that superseded race and ethnicity.58600:29:56.740 --> 00:30:00.240And of course, in this culture today, politics may be is the only thing that58700:30:00.240 --> 00:30:05.040Trump's race, uh, you got gender and you got all the woke stuff going on these58800:30:05.040 --> 00:30:05.500days.58900:30:05.680 --> 00:30:12.080And, and, uh, you know, I miss, I miss that unity where we're all pulling59000:30:12.080 --> 00:30:16.580together for one goal and we're supporting each other, putting our own egos on59100:30:16.580 --> 00:30:17.300the back burner.59200:30:18.120 --> 00:30:23.720And that's what Reggie and Brett both were brought to an amazing players.59300:30:23.780 --> 00:30:28.700I think Reggie was further along, obviously in his career and he had, he had59400:30:28.700 --> 00:30:32.640already accomplished so much in his own personal career, but it was looking for59500:30:32.640 --> 00:30:37.780that super bowl and really showed us all the way along with Brett, who was, you59600:30:37.780 --> 00:30:39.200know, he was, Brett was so young.59700:30:39.280 --> 00:30:44.740I mean, I look, I look like some video interviews of him when he was 22, 23.59800:30:45.160 --> 00:30:47.560I mean, I'm married, I got three kids.59900:30:47.780 --> 00:30:53.720I got more in common with coaches than I do with this young gunslinging, how60000:30:53.720 --> 00:30:58.480lucky wild man, party animal gunslinging quarterback.60100:30:59.540 --> 00:30:59.800Yes.60200:31:00.700 --> 00:31:04.780I, well, the celebration in New Orleans was going on, but I was going to say,60300:31:04.860 --> 00:31:08.860you and I stayed up and talk into the wee hours, I think till two or 3am.60400:31:09.660 --> 00:31:16.980And out of that came because I was so, uh, enamored with the fact that at 33,60500:31:17.220 --> 00:31:17.420right?60600:31:17.540 --> 00:31:24.060When you retired 33, same age as Jesus, when he departed and came back, okay,60700:31:24.060 --> 00:31:25.220I'm 33 years old.60800:31:25.580 --> 00:31:26.420What now?60900:31:26.520 --> 00:31:27.320What do I do now?61000:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.660And that's where that song came from.61100:31:29.720 --> 00:31:36.240I have sung it in so many occasions for fundraisers, for memorial services and61200:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.060gatherings of all kinds.61300:31:39.140 --> 00:31:43.720And, uh, every time I sing it, I think about you and, uh, thankful for what,61400:31:43.960 --> 00:31:46.620uh, you have brought to my life.61500:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.520Uh, we've played golf together.61600:31:49.660 --> 00:31:54.140We have, we, uh, I remember when you came to Houston one time, we played golf.61700:31:54.220 --> 00:31:56.320It was just, it was hilarious.61800:31:56.640 --> 00:31:58.880I mean, we're both so good.61900:31:59.620 --> 00:32:02.180First of all, we are both just so good at it.62000:32:03.100 --> 00:32:07.400And, and you brought such fun to it and I don't play much anymore.62100:32:07.940 --> 00:32:11.320And even when I do, I realize nobody cares.62200:32:11.580 --> 00:32:12.520Just have some fun.62300:32:12.580 --> 00:32:14.900I don't even keep score anymore as a, what is the point?62400:32:15.000 --> 00:32:15.200Right.62500:32:15.260 --> 00:32:18.580I just, and you taught me how to have, have some fun.62600:32:18.920 --> 00:32:23.200Uh, I remember going to a Packer game against the dreaded Chicago bears, no62700:32:23.200 --> 00:32:27.820offense, Chicago fans that are watching, but at old soldier field and they were62800:32:27.820 --> 00:32:30.440throwing little, little cheese at us.62900:32:30.680 --> 00:32:33.940We were sitting with your wife and all the other Packer wives and they're63000:32:33.940 --> 00:32:35.440throwing balls of cheese at us.63100:32:35.600 --> 00:32:35.700Yeah.63200:32:35.700 --> 00:32:36.980Cheese, cheese cubes.63300:32:37.400 --> 00:32:38.320Oh my gosh, man.63400:32:38.900 --> 00:32:43.900And I have feared for my life a few times in my life and going to the men's63500:32:43.900 --> 00:32:48.540room at soldier field as a Packer fan was one of those times I was afraid I63600:32:48.540 --> 00:32:49.540wasn't going to make it.63700:32:51.280 --> 00:32:54.340We had a great time after, after football.63800:32:54.740 --> 00:32:57.640That's where you are many years past.63900:32:57.660 --> 00:33:01.500Since I've known you, I've learned that offensive lineman and I'm not trying64000:33:01.500 --> 00:33:07.360to, to blow smoke, but offensive lineman are often the more intelligent of the,64100:33:07.360 --> 00:33:11.740uh, the 60 however many men roster on a NFL team.64200:33:11.900 --> 00:33:14.600You have your PhD in sociology, your teaching.64300:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.520Is that fulfilling for you?64400:33:16.720 --> 00:33:18.380Do you see something else after that?64500:33:18.660 --> 00:33:23.660I think the game, games over organization is going to continue to be a big part64600:33:23.660 --> 00:33:24.320of your life, right?64700:33:24.740 --> 00:33:26.160Well, games over.64800:33:26.600 --> 00:33:26.760Yeah.64900:33:26.800 --> 00:33:33.240After about eight, eight to 10 years of that, um, I'd started teaching part65000:33:33.240 --> 00:33:34.860-time and started enjoying that.65100:33:34.880 --> 00:33:39.800And, and it was, you know, I started as a nonprofit and of course, raising, you65200:33:39.800 --> 00:33:43.660know, raising money's hard period, but raising it for the up and outers, like,65300:33:43.800 --> 00:33:47.760like retired athletes is even more challenging.65400:33:48.620 --> 00:33:54.020And, but one of the guys I helped early on, and we, we would do conferences up65500:33:54.020 --> 00:34:01.360here in Oregon, uh, at a lodge on a lake and the NFL hired him to start the NFL65600:34:01.360 --> 00:34:02.620program in 2014.65700:34:02.740 --> 00:34:08.500And so he called me up and, and said, Hey, I'd love to have you come help me65800:34:08.500 --> 00:34:09.699get this thing going.65900:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.179A lot of the stuff we're doing is exactly in your wheelhouse.66000:34:13.219 --> 00:34:18.460I'm like, ah, man, I just put the nail in that baby, you know, a couple of66100:34:18.460 --> 00:34:19.080weeks ago.66200:34:19.460 --> 00:34:21.760And he said, well, think about it.66300:34:21.780 --> 00:34:23.500And I said, well, let me ask you this.66400:34:23.520 --> 00:34:26.760Are you including the wives in the process?66500:34:26.820 --> 00:34:29.860Cause they were going to, you know, they ended up doing, we ended up doing big66600:34:29.860 --> 00:34:35.199conferences with like a hundred guys, plus probably 70 or 80 guys brought their66700:34:35.199 --> 00:34:35.520wives.66800:34:35.699 --> 00:34:38.820So about a hundred, almost 200 people with, with everybody.66900:34:39.600 --> 00:34:41.860Amazing, just an amazing conference.67000:34:42.080 --> 00:34:44.699So the league finally figured out, let's get this going.67100:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.719Thanks to Troy Vincent, who was a former player.67200:34:48.679 --> 00:34:51.219Tell us about Cheryl and your kids.67300:34:51.460 --> 00:34:53.780Just tell us where they are, what they're doing now.67400:34:54.600 --> 00:34:54.840Yeah.67500:34:55.000 --> 00:35:00.520So, uh, we've got two daughters and, uh, one daughter's been married for, gosh,67600:35:00.600 --> 00:35:04.160I don't know, 13 years and, and, uh, three grandkids there.67700:35:04.160 --> 00:35:07.660And then my other daughter recently got married and she's finishing up her67800:35:07.660 --> 00:35:12.020master's and going to be a high school, uh, counselor and advisor.67900:35:12.200 --> 00:35:14.260So she's, she's excited about that.68000:35:14.300 --> 00:35:19.420My wife is a counselor, therapist, Christian counselor, practicing what they68100:35:19.420 --> 00:35:21.660call EFT or emotionally focused therapy.68200:35:21.660 --> 00:35:25.700So I'm learning a little bit about this stuff, but man, she's so good.68300:35:25.740 --> 00:35:29.100And then I have a son-in-law married to my oldest daughter with the grandkids68400:35:29.100 --> 00:35:30.740and he's a counselor.68500:35:30.740 --> 00:35:33.720And so I was telling somebody the other day and he said, you know what they say68600:35:33.720 --> 00:35:34.880about counselors, don't you?68700:35:35.140 --> 00:35:35.340Yeah.68800:35:35.700 --> 00:35:38.820I know they need more help than anybody else.68900:35:39.380 --> 00:35:42.160I said, man, that's my, that's like half my family's counselor.69000:35:42.940 --> 00:35:45.280I'm in deep, man, I'm in it.69100:35:45.440 --> 00:35:50.380But I, you know, I love, I pick up, you know, I teach four days a week, I teach69200:35:50.380 --> 00:35:51.080three classes.69300:35:51.080 --> 00:35:55.400And so on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I pick my grandkids up from school and we go69400:35:55.400 --> 00:35:56.360do stuff with them.69500:35:56.540 --> 00:35:59.980So I, I'm so blessed to be able to do that, that they live and both my69600:35:59.980 --> 00:36:01.960daughters live close to home.69700:36:02.220 --> 00:36:03.680So yeah.69800:36:04.540 --> 00:36:08.440Talk a little bit about your perspective on losses.69900:36:08.440 --> 00:36:14.960As I grow older, the biggest challenge is managing loss.70000:36:15.140 --> 00:36:20.240You suffered, you and Cheryl and your family suffered the, pretty much the70100:36:20.240 --> 00:36:21.220ultimate loss.70200:36:21.540 --> 00:36:22.460You want to talk about that?70300:36:22.940 --> 00:36:23.400Sure.70400:36:23.620 --> 00:36:26.080So I'll go back a little bit before that.70500:36:26.160 --> 00:36:31.200So when I was eight, I was the oldest of three boys, had two brothers and lost70600:36:31.200 --> 00:36:32.480my mom at eight.70700:36:32.600 --> 00:36:37.860And I could never figure out, you know, what, Lord, why would you take my mom?70800:36:38.040 --> 00:36:40.160My youngest brother was like a year and a half.70900:36:40.360 --> 00:36:48.520And when I became a believer at age 30, you know, a lot of Christians are like,71000:36:48.600 --> 00:36:50.240well, God is good all the time.71100:36:50.480 --> 00:36:51.340God is good.71200:36:51.420 --> 00:36:53.740And I had a real tough time thinking God is good.71300:36:54.560 --> 00:36:58.960I mean, God is God and God will be what God will be.71400:36:59.520 --> 00:37:01.720However God decides he's going to be.71500:37:02.400 --> 00:37:08.880But you know, in our, in our minds, in my mind, somebody who is a good God,71600:37:08.980 --> 00:37:13.860like if I'm on the shore of a river and there's somebody drowning and they71700:37:13.860 --> 00:37:19.260stick up their hand and you could save them and you don't save them, you71800:37:19.260 --> 00:37:20.680wouldn't call me a good person.71900:37:20.960 --> 00:37:23.540If that was me, you'd say you dirty rotten.72000:37:24.340 --> 00:37:24.620Yeah.72100:37:24.620 --> 00:37:32.880Now I don't think God's dirty rotten, but, and so now take, you know, decades72200:37:32.880 --> 00:37:37.060of having a tough go with, you know, the idea that God is good.72300:37:37.580 --> 00:37:42.800We were over in Portland, my wife and I, I'm doing an interview with a college72400:37:42.800 --> 00:37:47.220head coach for a Christian college that's, I'm thinking maybe I want to go72500:37:47.220 --> 00:37:50.120teach and coach over in Portland.72600:37:50.280 --> 00:37:53.600So I'm doing an interview, my phone's just buzzing in my pocket, but I can't,72700:37:53.640 --> 00:37:56.880I'm already in the middle of this, you know, lunch and interview and getting to72800:37:56.880 --> 00:37:57.520know this guy.72900:37:57.860 --> 00:38:02.080And so finally we connect, my wife somewhere else, I'm in this meeting, our73000:38:02.080 --> 00:38:02.800daughter somewhere else.73100:38:02.880 --> 00:38:08.120We finally connect and we learned that the night before our son was in a73200:38:08.120 --> 00:38:14.460motorcycle accident and passed away pretty, pretty, broke his neck and it was a73300:38:14.460 --> 00:38:20.860quick and merciful end, but nonetheless a very needless death and, you know,73400:38:20.920 --> 00:38:21.620devastated.73500:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.140I mean, just, and I was very angry.73600:38:25.140 --> 00:38:31.900I was very angry at him as well for, you know, not being too bright.73700:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.260You know, it's like, why would you get on, you don't have a motorcycle license.73800:38:35.380 --> 00:38:37.660You'd been, you know, having too much to drink.73900:38:37.740 --> 00:38:41.240You got on this crotch rocket that was your buddy's and you had no business,74000:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.140you know.74100:38:43.140 --> 00:38:50.220Now, if I remember right, the bike was not his, it belonged to a friend.74200:38:50.640 --> 00:38:57.560And didn't the police or the emergency medical call the friend's parents?74300:38:57.760 --> 00:38:58.320Oh yeah, man.74400:38:58.540 --> 00:39:02.420And told them that their son had died in an accident?74500:39:02.800 --> 00:39:06.900He had his buddy's backpack on and his buddy's passport was in the backpack.74600:39:07.200 --> 00:39:09.980And so they called, they thought that's who he was.74700:39:10.060 --> 00:39:12.440And so they called, boy, what a, it was a mess.74800:39:12.660 --> 00:39:18.200But so we're, so my wife, Cheryl and I and our daughter, we're driving back and74900:39:18.200 --> 00:39:23.000we're driving back over the mountains and driving along this river and I'm75000:39:23.000 --> 00:39:26.860driving, I'm looking at the river and, you know, as I'm driving, just kind of75100:39:26.860 --> 00:39:31.100glancing over and my wife's looking at the river and both of us, it's just75200:39:31.100 --> 00:39:34.900silent the whole way because, you know, it's just so somber.75300:39:35.180 --> 00:39:37.980Trying to wrap our heads around this thing, we've got to go back and I got to75400:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.380go identify the body and all that kind of stuff.75500:39:40.900 --> 00:39:45.960And this overwhelming feeling comes over me that God is good.75600:39:47.500 --> 00:39:51.320And my wife looks over at me and she says, what are you thinking right now?75700:39:51.940 --> 00:39:55.680I said, I'm thinking it's the craziest thing.75800:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.660I'm thinking how good God is.75900:39:59.660 --> 00:40:02.440And she said, that is so bizarre.76000:40:02.560 --> 00:40:07.840I am, I have this overwhelming feeling that God is good as well.76100:40:09.800 --> 00:40:11.740Man, what a gift.76200:40:12.700 --> 00:40:13.880What a gift.76300:40:16.700 --> 00:40:24.180That's the thing I would, you know, for decades could not say God is good.76400:40:24.840 --> 00:40:29.140And all of a sudden, both of us as we're driving along this river.76500:40:29.140 --> 00:40:29.900Yeah.76600:40:30.540 --> 00:40:40.390Man, you know what the ultimate irreverence I think that this culture76700:40:41.570 --> 00:40:43.950manifests is thinking we know everything.76800:40:45.150 --> 00:40:49.550And especially Christians, we've got so much information at our fingertips.76900:40:49.870 --> 00:40:53.110We can find questions, we can find answers to every question.77000:40:53.230 --> 00:40:57.110And we think, I think even subliminally sometimes we got this figured out.77100:40:57.230 --> 00:40:58.070I mean, there's no mystery.77200:40:59.090 --> 00:41:02.830And then when you go through something like that, the scripture says about the77300:41:02.830 --> 00:41:04.570peace that passes understanding.77400:41:04.770 --> 00:41:13.250I always amplify that by saying illogical, unexplainable, should not be their77500:41:13.250 --> 00:41:13.650peace.77600:41:14.150 --> 00:41:18.750You should not be experiencing peace in the hours after losing a son.77700:41:19.590 --> 00:41:23.230You should, it's unimaginable that you can even go there.77800:41:23.350 --> 00:41:32.250But people who truly know and walk with the Lord and are His and confess Him77900:41:32.250 --> 00:41:33.810and hold Him in their hearts.78000:41:34.410 --> 00:41:40.270Those are the many perks of knowing Jesus and being possessed by Him.78100:41:40.610 --> 00:41:46.290And I'm telling you, man, that kind of loss for someone who doesn't walk with78200:41:46.290 --> 00:41:52.230the Lord, I think is why so many people are just off the rails and never get78300:41:52.230 --> 00:41:53.110back on the rails.78400:41:53.410 --> 00:41:57.770You know, it's interesting to me that people find so many other things to try78500:41:57.770 --> 00:41:59.730and it's just right there.78600:42:00.210 --> 00:42:01.230It's just right there.78700:42:02.230 --> 00:42:07.150And so anybody listening, watching this, if you've tried all this other stuff,78800:42:07.210 --> 00:42:07.970it's so simple.78900:42:08.490 --> 00:42:15.730We believe as Ken believes that Christ has given Himself for us and gives us so79000:42:15.730 --> 00:42:20.390many benefits of knowing Him and not only in eternity, but here.79100:42:20.590 --> 00:42:25.630And there is no other explanation for what you just said, other than walking79200:42:25.630 --> 00:42:26.190with the Lord.79300:42:26.670 --> 00:42:27.490No way.79400:42:27.670 --> 00:42:28.150No way.79500:42:28.270 --> 00:42:28.890What a gift.79600:42:30.150 --> 00:42:31.150So grateful.79700:42:31.530 --> 00:42:33.670And of course, it's still a challenge.79800:42:33.870 --> 00:42:38.910I mean, I still, my head turns to, you know, things of this world and the older79900:42:38.910 --> 00:42:45.170I get, you know, I think I'm doing a little bit better, uh, you know, is80000:42:45.170 --> 00:42:52.790staying in that, that base of peace, you know, Shalom, you know, being, being80100:42:52.790 --> 00:42:54.270at peace and trusting.80200:42:54.970 --> 00:43:03.790And, you know, I really enjoyed this chosen series and gosh, I just so grateful80300:43:03.790 --> 00:43:07.690for, man, Jesus is like in under Roman rule.80400:43:07.690 --> 00:43:14.270He's under, you know, a religious, you know, totalitarian oligarchy, kind of a80500:43:14.270 --> 00:43:14.930oppressive.80600:43:15.310 --> 00:43:16.310And He's at peace.80700:43:16.910 --> 00:43:17.350Yes.80800:43:18.190 --> 00:43:21.690His disciples are trying to figure it out and they can't, and I can relate to80900:43:21.690 --> 00:43:21.810that.81000:43:22.030 --> 00:43:22.390Oh yeah.81100:43:23.210 --> 00:43:25.530They're a mess, which I find very refreshing.81200:43:25.530 --> 00:43:27.070I know, I'm like, and that's me.81300:43:27.250 --> 00:43:30.690I'm like, yeah, I'm this and I'm that, and I can relate to that.81400:43:32.210 --> 00:43:37.770Well, that series and a bunch of other stuff in life makes me realize it's okay81500:43:37.770 --> 00:43:38.390to be a mess.81600:43:38.510 --> 00:43:42.230A pastor friend of mine talks about God creating the universe in seven days,81700:43:42.330 --> 00:43:45.710whatever days were, and he said, some of us are being created.81800:43:45.870 --> 00:43:47.010Some of us are on day two.81900:43:47.370 --> 00:43:49.030Some of us are on day six.82000:43:49.470 --> 00:43:52.930Some are just seeing the sunset on day one.82100:43:54.430 --> 00:43:57.210It took me a lot of years to give myself a break.82200:43:57.510 --> 00:43:58.730Give yourself a break.82300:43:58.850 --> 00:44:03.450I mean, you know, if we believe what you and I believe, then nothing we can do82400:44:03.450 --> 00:44:06.490can separate us from that, redemption and from that love.82500:44:06.650 --> 00:44:12.010And man, I am so thankful that you are a person out there in the face of the82600:44:12.010 --> 00:44:19.190culture with the gentle strength that you have for young people, students, for82700:44:19.190 --> 00:44:23.030athletes that are in a quandary about what do I do now?82800:44:23.090 --> 00:44:26.190My whole identity was being a fullback or a lineman.82900:44:26.290 --> 00:44:30.290And now I have plenty of money, but you know, a lot of them don't make it.83000:44:30.650 --> 00:44:32.450A lot of them don't make it, as you know.83100:44:32.650 --> 00:44:37.930So, I'm grateful for you, brother, and I'm so thankful we had this time83200:44:37.930 --> 00:44:38.290together.83300:44:39.250 --> 00:44:40.690Tom Hanks Well, it's great to be with you, Wayne.83400:44:40.930 --> 00:44:45.890Thanks for all that you do and that you continue to do and loving on people,83500:44:46.070 --> 00:44:49.310whether it's through a podcast, your family or your church or neighbors.83600:44:50.410 --> 00:44:50.910Thank you.83700:44:51.630 --> 00:44:52.050Wayne Watson Okay, brother.83800:44:52.210 --> 00:44:52.610God bless.83900:44:52.710 --> 00:44:52.970Bye-bye.84000:44:54.230 --> 00:44:58.670Narrator Thanks for listening to the Wayne Watson Podcast, where stories of84100:44:58.670 --> 00:45:03.870faith, purpose, and everyday life meet and continue to uplift hearts around the84200:45:03.870 --> 00:45:04.230world.84300:45:04.430 --> 00:45:08.370Be sure to follow, leave us a review, and share this episode with a friend.84400:45:08.570 --> 00:45:12.770To learn more about Wayne's music, ministry, and upcoming projects, visit84500:45:12.770 --> 00:45:14.410Waynewatson.com.84600:45:14.470 --> 00:45:19.290Every journey of faith begins with a story, and every heart finds its rhythm in84700:45:19.290 --> 00:45:19.790the Lord.84800:45:20.190 --> 00:45:25.230Until next time, go well, and may you keep walking in step with his song84900:45:25.230 --> 00:45:26.530flowing through you.