Asking Better Questions: The Pursuit of Truth with Dr. Suse McBay

100:00:01.830 --> 00:00:04.750Welcome to the Wayne Watson Podcast, where Grammy200:00:04.750 --> 00:00:07.450nominee and multiple Dove award-winning artist Wayne300:00:07.450 --> 00:00:11.010Watson engages in lively conversation with remarkable people400:00:11.010 --> 00:00:12.370from every walk of life.500:00:12.670 --> 00:00:15.670Artists to healthcare professionals, athletes and leaders to600:00:15.670 --> 00:00:18.670everyday believers whose stories reflect the power of700:00:18.670 --> 00:00:20.270faith at work in the world.800:00:20.530 --> 00:00:22.310Join us as we go beyond the spotlight900:00:22.310 --> 00:00:23.930and into the heart of what it means1000:00:23.930 --> 00:00:26.490to live with purpose and conviction, diving into1100:00:26.490 --> 00:00:29.110real conversations about the moments that shape us,1200:00:29.270 --> 00:00:31.470the faith that sustains us, and the God1300:00:31.470 --> 00:00:32.590who inspires it all.1400:00:32.810 --> 00:00:35.010Now, here's your host, Wayne Watson.1500:00:42.840 --> 00:00:44.620Hello, thanks for joining me again.1600:00:44.700 --> 00:00:46.540I hope you've enjoyed the first three episodes1700:00:46.540 --> 00:00:47.360of the podcast.1800:00:48.180 --> 00:00:50.960And this episode, I have with me a1900:00:50.960 --> 00:00:52.520very dear friend whom I met when we2000:00:52.520 --> 00:00:56.020were on staff at the Dr. Suse McBay.2100:00:56.740 --> 00:00:58.140We became good friends.2200:00:58.240 --> 00:01:00.300She and her husband have since moved back2300:01:00.300 --> 00:01:04.140to England, and she is teaching at a2400:01:04.140 --> 00:01:04.960school in Oxford.2500:01:05.720 --> 00:01:08.740And I think you'll enjoy this conversation, a2600:01:08.740 --> 00:01:11.780little fly-on-the-wall conversation between two2700:01:11.780 --> 00:01:12.140friends.2800:01:12.280 --> 00:01:14.280She has brilliant insights.2900:01:14.660 --> 00:01:16.800She's amazing and entertaining.3000:01:17.000 --> 00:01:17.980I think you'll enjoy it.3100:01:18.000 --> 00:01:18.600I hope you do.3200:01:22.710 --> 00:01:23.710Here's my guest.3300:01:27.250 --> 00:01:27.670Okay.3400:01:27.670 --> 00:01:29.470Well, tell me what's going on with you.3500:01:29.530 --> 00:01:30.490You've got your coffee.3600:01:31.130 --> 00:01:31.250Tea.3700:01:31.830 --> 00:01:32.690Is that tea or coffee?3800:01:32.970 --> 00:01:34.950Oh, you've changed.3900:01:35.330 --> 00:01:36.210I have changed.4000:01:36.790 --> 00:01:37.790I'm sorry, Wayne.4100:01:38.570 --> 00:01:39.290Yeah, it is.4200:01:39.470 --> 00:01:41.330It's a Roy Boston Earl Grey tea, so4300:01:41.330 --> 00:01:42.390we do it with caffeine.4400:01:42.930 --> 00:01:43.030Okay.4500:01:43.590 --> 00:01:45.830Well, it is so good to talk to4600:01:45.830 --> 00:01:46.130you.4700:01:47.970 --> 00:01:50.070You're my favorite British citizen.4800:01:50.350 --> 00:01:50.650Woo-hoo!4900:01:50.870 --> 00:01:51.470Don't tell James.5000:01:51.470 --> 00:01:53.370That I know personally.5100:01:54.790 --> 00:01:56.250You're the only one I know personally.5200:01:56.350 --> 00:01:58.670Anyway, you're still my favorite British citizen.5300:01:59.170 --> 00:02:01.590You have dual citizenship here in the States5400:02:01.590 --> 00:02:03.010and in the UK, correct?5500:02:03.510 --> 00:02:04.150No, you didn't.5600:02:04.770 --> 00:02:07.669But you came here and you married a5700:02:07.669 --> 00:02:08.030Texan.5800:02:08.289 --> 00:02:09.090I didn't go there.5900:02:09.229 --> 00:02:11.230I had married a Texan, and then I6000:02:11.230 --> 00:02:11.690went there.6100:02:12.030 --> 00:02:12.730Oh, okay.6200:02:12.830 --> 00:02:13.990I didn't know if you met him or6300:02:13.990 --> 00:02:14.130not.6400:02:14.150 --> 00:02:14.250Yes.6500:02:14.250 --> 00:02:16.430I met him in the UK, and then6600:02:16.430 --> 00:02:19.430moved out to the States after that, and6700:02:19.430 --> 00:02:20.530I was on a green card.6800:02:20.530 --> 00:02:22.910I was eligible for citizenship, but it seemed6900:02:22.910 --> 00:02:24.750like a bit of a faff.7000:02:25.050 --> 00:02:27.590You know, money, administration, fill out some paperwork,7100:02:27.830 --> 00:02:28.470do a whole thing.7200:02:29.950 --> 00:02:31.110I never did.7300:02:31.450 --> 00:02:34.010And I had to abandon my residency when7400:02:34.010 --> 00:02:34.670I moved back.7500:02:36.190 --> 00:02:38.950I got an email saying, giving the official7600:02:38.950 --> 00:02:43.270notification of my abandonment of my lawful permanent7700:02:43.270 --> 00:02:43.930residence.7800:02:44.850 --> 00:02:45.470Oh, wow.7900:02:45.630 --> 00:02:46.570That's a little harsh.8000:02:46.570 --> 00:02:50.870That could be a little nicer about it.8100:02:50.970 --> 00:02:53.650But hey, nothing is not resilient.8200:02:54.170 --> 00:02:56.710And you've been back in the UK now8300:02:56.710 --> 00:02:57.330for how long?8400:02:57.970 --> 00:02:59.270Three, two years?8500:03:00.310 --> 00:03:01.290Two years.8600:03:01.450 --> 00:03:01.970Two years.8700:03:02.110 --> 00:03:02.410Wow.8800:03:02.590 --> 00:03:03.570Years and three months.8900:03:04.250 --> 00:03:08.370I remember meeting you when I was having9000:03:08.370 --> 00:03:12.190discussions about going on staff at St. Martin's9100:03:12.190 --> 00:03:12.830Episcopal.9200:03:13.510 --> 00:03:15.870We were wearing masks at the time.9300:03:15.870 --> 00:03:16.410When?9400:03:17.590 --> 00:03:21.890It was spring of 21, probably.9500:03:22.570 --> 00:03:24.430And you came in, and you told me9600:03:24.430 --> 00:03:27.190later, I'll remind you what you told me.9700:03:27.250 --> 00:03:28.390I think you know what you told me,9800:03:28.410 --> 00:03:28.590though.9900:03:28.950 --> 00:03:30.650You came in, you had your mask on,10000:03:30.670 --> 00:03:32.550and you introduced yourself, and I said, oh,10100:03:32.670 --> 00:03:33.450good morning, Susan.10200:03:33.550 --> 00:03:34.590And you said, no, it's Suse.10300:03:35.130 --> 00:03:36.410Oh, Suzy.10400:03:36.590 --> 00:03:38.470No, it's not Suzy, it's Suse.10500:03:40.590 --> 00:03:43.190So, it was immortalized in a Seinfeld episode,10600:03:43.390 --> 00:03:43.810a Suse.10700:03:43.990 --> 00:03:45.170You know, she's not a Suse.10800:03:45.170 --> 00:03:49.150You are a Suse, and you choose to10900:03:49.150 --> 00:03:49.970be a Suse.11000:03:50.590 --> 00:03:53.630And you told me later, after that initial11100:03:53.630 --> 00:03:56.030meeting, that you had decided you weren't going11200:03:56.030 --> 00:03:56.410to like me.11300:03:58.150 --> 00:04:01.350I tend not to decide that I'm not11400:04:01.350 --> 00:04:02.510going to like somebody in advance.11500:04:02.650 --> 00:04:03.350That's a little unfair.11600:04:04.030 --> 00:04:07.870But I was, in terms of bias and11700:04:07.870 --> 00:04:12.430anticipated destination, I was anticipating disliking you.11800:04:13.890 --> 00:04:15.149And look what happened.11900:04:15.709 --> 00:04:16.970Yeah, I mean, I think- You became12000:04:16.970 --> 00:04:17.829very good friends.12100:04:18.390 --> 00:04:18.490...12200:04:18.490 --> 00:04:21.870to how likable you are, that you managed12300:04:21.870 --> 00:04:23.670to kind of claw your way back, not12400:04:23.670 --> 00:04:25.730only out of my bad books, but into12500:04:25.730 --> 00:04:26.530my good books.12600:04:28.670 --> 00:04:32.250Well, you know, there are lots of things12700:04:32.250 --> 00:04:33.090we could talk about.12800:04:33.270 --> 00:04:36.890Neither one of us are applying our trade12900:04:36.890 --> 00:04:38.070at St. Martin's anymore.13000:04:39.030 --> 00:04:41.650You are at Oxford.13100:04:41.990 --> 00:04:46.310Tell us, for those of my listeners, the13200:04:46.310 --> 00:04:48.490six of them, tell them what it's like13300:04:48.490 --> 00:04:52.470to live in England today.13400:04:52.710 --> 00:04:57.110You're not experiencing the airport chaos that we13500:04:57.110 --> 00:04:58.150are at this point, I hope.13600:04:58.210 --> 00:05:00.250I don't know if you're traveling, the airports13700:05:00.250 --> 00:05:03.250here are nuts because it's spring break.13800:05:03.650 --> 00:05:06.950I guess I'm dating myself of this broadcast,13900:05:07.330 --> 00:05:10.910but it's spring break, and our lovely politicians14000:05:10.910 --> 00:05:13.670can't agree on some things, so the government14100:05:13.670 --> 00:05:16.430is shut down, and travelers are stuck, and14200:05:16.430 --> 00:05:18.850there's a lot going on there.14300:05:19.130 --> 00:05:20.430It's quite different over here.14400:05:20.490 --> 00:05:21.870We don't have that with the airports.14500:05:22.470 --> 00:05:28.090I will say life in Oxford, England, if14600:05:28.090 --> 00:05:31.150of the six listeners, they do know Houston,14700:05:31.710 --> 00:05:34.170they should try and imagine everything Houston is,14800:05:34.510 --> 00:05:36.270and then go for the opposite.14900:05:36.670 --> 00:05:39.530What are the opposites between Houston and Oxford?15000:05:40.950 --> 00:05:45.610Very much not designed for cars, but the15100:05:45.610 --> 00:05:46.770pace is a lot slower.15200:05:47.450 --> 00:05:48.170Oh, yeah.15300:05:48.170 --> 00:05:50.170Much, much slower.15400:05:50.970 --> 00:05:54.690People aren't as friendly, not because they're mean,15500:05:54.810 --> 00:05:57.950it's just culturally different, so they're not as15600:05:57.950 --> 00:05:59.150extroverted, put it that way.15700:05:59.710 --> 00:06:02.170This was your home.15800:06:02.450 --> 00:06:03.410You grew up in Oxford.15900:06:03.790 --> 00:06:04.590Did, I did.16000:06:05.390 --> 00:06:10.350And now teaching at what specific- I16100:06:10.350 --> 00:06:14.790teach at Wycliffe Hall, which technically speaking is16200:06:14.790 --> 00:06:17.310a permanent private hall of the University of16300:06:17.310 --> 00:06:21.690Oxford, which practically speaking is like a very16400:06:21.690 --> 00:06:24.830small college with a denominational affiliation.16500:06:25.050 --> 00:06:26.230So, what are you teaching this term?16600:06:27.650 --> 00:06:29.090Well, I'm on break, so I'm not teaching16700:06:29.090 --> 00:06:35.090anything, but I have been teaching further studies16800:06:35.090 --> 00:06:37.570in Old Testament, so we've been looking at16900:06:37.570 --> 00:06:43.710Proverbs, and Ruth, and the Psalms, Samuel, Joshua17000:06:43.710 --> 00:06:44.710Judges, that kind of thing.17100:06:45.230 --> 00:06:48.790I've been teaching second-year Greek for fun.17200:06:49.770 --> 00:06:51.350Yeah, it hasn't been too bad, actually.17300:06:51.710 --> 00:06:54.230I've also been giving a lot of draft17400:06:54.230 --> 00:06:55.550feedback on assignments.17500:06:55.810 --> 00:06:59.390So, before they submit their essays for our17600:06:59.390 --> 00:07:02.870Introduction to Old Testament course, they're entitled to17700:07:02.870 --> 00:07:05.930one round of feedback on their draft.17800:07:05.930 --> 00:07:09.250And so, I've had to wade through over17900:07:09.250 --> 00:07:10.57040 assignments.18000:07:11.070 --> 00:07:11.590Wow.18100:07:12.850 --> 00:07:14.710And try and get some kind of useful18200:07:14.710 --> 00:07:16.650feedback and constructive advice.18300:07:17.190 --> 00:07:19.670When you were coming up in Oxford, did18400:07:19.670 --> 00:07:23.150you ever, did you think forward into your18500:07:23.150 --> 00:07:25.030adult years, did you ever imagine that you18600:07:25.030 --> 00:07:26.510would be living there again and that you18700:07:26.510 --> 00:07:29.170would be teaching at Wycliffe Hall at Oxford?18800:07:29.890 --> 00:07:32.330Well, I think it's safe to say that18900:07:32.330 --> 00:07:35.490nothing in my life is what I thought19000:07:35.490 --> 00:07:36.350it was going to be.19100:07:36.490 --> 00:07:36.830Oh, yeah?19200:07:37.050 --> 00:07:37.870At least at all.19300:07:38.410 --> 00:07:39.990I mean, I didn't think I'd get into19400:07:39.990 --> 00:07:40.330Oxford.19500:07:40.490 --> 00:07:42.230When I initially applied to Oxford, I thought19600:07:42.230 --> 00:07:45.130it would be funny to turn them down,19700:07:45.570 --> 00:07:46.970because I grew up on the side of19800:07:46.970 --> 00:07:47.290Oxford.19900:07:48.770 --> 00:07:52.770That is so consistent with who I know20000:07:52.770 --> 00:07:53.250you to be.20100:07:54.790 --> 00:07:57.310You would just love saying, thanks, but no20200:07:57.310 --> 00:07:57.630thanks.20300:07:57.910 --> 00:07:58.290Correct.20400:07:58.990 --> 00:08:00.330I lived on the side of the city20500:08:00.330 --> 00:08:02.070that, you know, my parents didn't go to20600:08:02.070 --> 00:08:02.410college.20700:08:02.970 --> 00:08:06.030Lots of, there's quite a big town and20800:08:06.030 --> 00:08:07.450gown split in Oxford.20900:08:07.890 --> 00:08:09.370It goes all the way back to when21000:08:09.370 --> 00:08:11.790the university was founded, where Oxford was just21100:08:11.790 --> 00:08:14.070sort of, the university was imposed upon the21200:08:14.070 --> 00:08:15.010townsfolk of Oxford.21300:08:16.790 --> 00:08:20.390In the 1355, there was a famous Saint21400:08:20.390 --> 00:08:23.350Scholastica's Day riot, which led into a big21500:08:23.350 --> 00:08:26.690town and gown brawl, and over 60 academics21600:08:26.690 --> 00:08:27.210died.21700:08:28.390 --> 00:08:31.049The result of that included an annual fine21800:08:31.049 --> 00:08:32.970that was paid by the mayor to the21900:08:32.970 --> 00:08:36.909university, and that fine only ceased in the22000:08:36.909 --> 00:08:39.8901860s, I want to say, so it went22100:08:39.890 --> 00:08:41.150on for 500 years.22200:08:41.690 --> 00:08:41.830Wow.22300:08:42.049 --> 00:08:43.770So, it's very, very much entrenched.22400:08:44.410 --> 00:08:48.050But yes, I was going to turn them22500:08:48.050 --> 00:08:51.890down, but I went, and I did not22600:08:51.890 --> 00:08:53.090expect to be where I am today.22700:08:54.030 --> 00:08:56.150Well, a lot's happened in 500 years.22800:08:56.790 --> 00:09:00.730We have a big celebration coming up this22900:09:00.730 --> 00:09:01.470July.23000:09:03.550 --> 00:09:05.990How do you celebrate July 4th there in23100:09:05.990 --> 00:09:06.310the UK?23200:09:08.370 --> 00:09:12.010We cannot for former colonies.23300:09:12.510 --> 00:09:14.050I mean, they're not of interest to us.23400:09:14.290 --> 00:09:15.070I know, I know.23500:09:15.270 --> 00:09:17.530I would think by now you'd be over23600:09:17.530 --> 00:09:18.830it a little bit, but you're still a23700:09:18.830 --> 00:09:19.070little bitter.23800:09:20.270 --> 00:09:22.850My husband and I actually met over July23900:09:22.850 --> 00:09:24.6704th in 2012.24000:09:24.670 --> 00:09:28.050So, I think it's really lovely that everybody24100:09:28.050 --> 00:09:31.130is celebrating the day that we fell in24200:09:31.130 --> 00:09:31.410love.24300:09:31.530 --> 00:09:34.670And what's your daily, Stephen is your husband,24400:09:35.190 --> 00:09:37.370and is he still studying for his doctorate?24500:09:37.590 --> 00:09:39.110What is he doing these days?24600:09:39.250 --> 00:09:40.010Tell me about Stephen.24700:09:40.130 --> 00:09:41.690Tell us about him, what he's doing these24800:09:41.690 --> 00:09:41.910days.24900:09:42.270 --> 00:09:45.070So, yeah, he is finishing his PhD, but25000:09:45.070 --> 00:09:50.110I reject that he writes about Paul, and25100:09:50.110 --> 00:09:52.150I write about everything else, or teach about25200:09:52.150 --> 00:09:53.010everything else.25300:09:53.030 --> 00:09:53.330Okay.25400:09:55.130 --> 00:09:56.010So, yeah.25500:09:57.110 --> 00:10:00.670What have you experienced as a woman, a25600:10:00.670 --> 00:10:03.990very well-educated woman in ministry through your25700:10:03.990 --> 00:10:05.590years, both in the UK and here?25800:10:05.890 --> 00:10:07.390You see, okay, I'm a bit of a25900:10:07.390 --> 00:10:09.510strange personality in that regard.26000:10:11.010 --> 00:10:13.170I know plenty of women who have had26100:10:13.170 --> 00:10:16.510overt, you shouldn't do that because you're a26200:10:16.510 --> 00:10:17.170woman type thing.26300:10:17.510 --> 00:10:19.290That actually never came my way.26400:10:19.290 --> 00:10:21.510I think because I have grew up with26500:10:21.510 --> 00:10:24.450brothers, I think people know, oh, she's not26600:10:24.450 --> 00:10:26.430going to, she'll bite back.26700:10:27.870 --> 00:10:29.150So, they've never tried it.26800:10:29.750 --> 00:10:33.170That said, I do think there's the softer26900:10:33.170 --> 00:10:37.730dynamics of, you know, people might not say27000:10:37.730 --> 00:10:40.850overtly try and undermine you, but there may27100:10:40.850 --> 00:10:42.610be subtle ways in which that's done, and27200:10:42.610 --> 00:10:45.650kind of the differences in expectations of what27300:10:45.650 --> 00:10:47.670a woman minister is.27400:10:47.670 --> 00:10:53.370So, things like, there's an expectation that I'm27500:10:53.370 --> 00:10:54.690going to be very soft and cuddly.27600:10:55.030 --> 00:10:57.090I have my moments when, you know that,27700:10:57.430 --> 00:11:00.070but I'm not soft and cuddly.27800:11:00.850 --> 00:11:04.810Let me, you're multifaceted.27900:11:06.010 --> 00:11:08.030That's one of the things I like about28000:11:08.030 --> 00:11:10.810you is you don't take any guff from28100:11:10.810 --> 00:11:13.130anyone, and you're strong.28200:11:13.130 --> 00:11:15.890I went to the office, my office when28300:11:15.890 --> 00:11:17.930I was at St. Martin's, and the receptionist28400:11:17.930 --> 00:11:18.930said, you have a package.28500:11:19.050 --> 00:11:20.630So, I went, and they gave me this28600:11:20.630 --> 00:11:22.630box, and I opened it.28700:11:22.670 --> 00:11:24.030I didn't, it didn't have a name on28800:11:24.030 --> 00:11:26.150it as to who it was from, and28900:11:26.150 --> 00:11:27.210I opened it up, and this little guy29000:11:27.210 --> 00:11:27.710was in there.29100:11:27.970 --> 00:11:29.990So, I just remember one of our meetings,29200:11:30.690 --> 00:11:34.010we, I think you were leading the discussion,29300:11:34.010 --> 00:11:37.190and everyone had to identify with a Winnie29400:11:37.190 --> 00:11:38.430the Pooh character, right?29500:11:39.910 --> 00:11:41.730And I think you stuck me with this.29600:11:42.450 --> 00:11:43.190With Eeyore.29700:11:43.610 --> 00:11:45.790I don't remember what your character was.29800:11:46.770 --> 00:11:48.690I don't know if I have a character.29900:11:49.170 --> 00:11:53.330See, that's, that's, that's kind of bailing out.30000:11:53.530 --> 00:11:54.970Now, you can't, you can't assign.30100:11:55.510 --> 00:11:59.450I do, I do reluctantly agree that this30200:11:59.450 --> 00:12:00.450is my character.30300:12:01.930 --> 00:12:03.110It's got a big nose.30400:12:03.150 --> 00:12:04.590I have a new Eeyore, one of my30500:12:04.590 --> 00:12:06.350new colleagues, I think, is your successor.30600:12:06.710 --> 00:12:07.430Oh, really?30700:12:07.650 --> 00:12:10.530Yes, I do, but in a different category30800:12:10.530 --> 00:12:14.450of, or different genre of analogy, I, I30900:12:14.450 --> 00:12:16.930was listening to a podcast recently, and it31000:12:16.930 --> 00:12:19.370was an interview with Andy Samberg, and I31100:12:19.370 --> 00:12:22.910realized that my colleague John is very much31200:12:22.910 --> 00:12:23.750like Andy Samberg.31300:12:24.090 --> 00:12:26.050They give, because in the podcast, they were31400:12:26.050 --> 00:12:28.330describing him as a sort of America's younger31500:12:28.330 --> 00:12:31.230brother, and I, and that dawned on me,31600:12:31.250 --> 00:12:32.330I was like, yes, that's John!31700:12:32.430 --> 00:12:35.410Like, he gives strong, like, younger brother vibes.31800:12:36.210 --> 00:12:36.310Wow.31900:12:36.710 --> 00:12:38.010I went in on Monday, and I said,32000:12:38.090 --> 00:12:39.370I said to John, I said, hey John,32100:12:39.430 --> 00:12:41.410John, John, I know who your, you know,32200:12:41.630 --> 00:12:43.570SNL actor is.32300:12:43.670 --> 00:12:44.310He's like, who's that?32400:12:44.490 --> 00:12:46.070I said, it's Andy Samberg, and he looked32500:12:46.070 --> 00:12:47.570at me, big smile, like, yes!32600:12:48.050 --> 00:12:50.390Like, I'm totally that, I'm actually a younger32700:12:50.390 --> 00:12:50.730brother.32800:12:51.150 --> 00:12:51.630So, it was great.32900:12:52.010 --> 00:12:53.110As he said, well, who are you?33000:12:53.510 --> 00:12:54.570And I looked at him, I said, well,33100:12:54.810 --> 00:12:55.710clearly I'm Tina Fey.33200:12:57.530 --> 00:12:59.010Yeah, I could see that.33300:12:59.330 --> 00:13:02.050So, within half an hour, he had printed33400:13:02.050 --> 00:13:04.790off a picture of Andy Samberg and Tina33500:13:04.790 --> 00:13:06.770Fey that are currently on both of our33600:13:06.770 --> 00:13:07.810doors, so.33700:13:07.810 --> 00:13:12.230Well, I mean, to me, compared to Tina33800:13:12.230 --> 00:13:15.870Fey, I mean, she's, that's pretty high praise,33900:13:15.990 --> 00:13:16.430I would think.34000:13:16.570 --> 00:13:19.470I mean, I was self-proclaimed.34100:13:19.650 --> 00:13:22.510I don't know that she has a PhD,34200:13:22.770 --> 00:13:24.250but yeah, you know, nobody's perfect.34300:13:24.650 --> 00:13:28.190But I remember when you were here at34400:13:28.190 --> 00:13:32.010St. Martin's, we started a service that our34500:13:32.010 --> 00:13:35.490rector and one of the other staff priest34600:13:35.490 --> 00:13:38.590named Riverway, because that was a street that34700:13:38.590 --> 00:13:40.130ran right through the heart of the St.34800:13:40.290 --> 00:13:40.730Martin's.34900:13:40.810 --> 00:13:41.690It still is.35000:13:42.050 --> 00:13:44.410And I remember we had, on the communion35100:13:44.410 --> 00:13:46.690table, we wrote out elements in the service35200:13:46.690 --> 00:13:48.570on little teeny tiny slips of paper, and35300:13:48.570 --> 00:13:50.970you and Jane and I sat there and35400:13:50.970 --> 00:13:52.410tried to order the service.35500:13:52.710 --> 00:13:53.050We did.35600:13:53.750 --> 00:13:56.550And in that service, there were certain things35700:13:56.550 --> 00:13:57.830that had to be in there.35800:13:58.070 --> 00:14:00.310We were, this is a non-negotiable.35900:14:00.310 --> 00:14:02.150But one of the things we put in36000:14:02.150 --> 00:14:04.230the service early on, we had a coffee36100:14:04.230 --> 00:14:04.850break in the middle.36200:14:04.950 --> 00:14:05.430You remember that?36300:14:05.890 --> 00:14:06.330We tried.36400:14:06.650 --> 00:14:08.030Didn't last long, but we tried.36500:14:09.110 --> 00:14:10.170It was a nice idea.36600:14:10.630 --> 00:14:12.170Noble, terrible cause.36700:14:12.610 --> 00:14:16.490We were so coffee forward, and we would36800:14:16.490 --> 00:14:18.870have some worship and some scripture reading.36900:14:19.190 --> 00:14:21.530I'm not sure where the coffee break came.37000:14:22.230 --> 00:14:23.090When did it happen?37100:14:23.290 --> 00:14:24.390But I've got to say, the thing is,37200:14:24.510 --> 00:14:27.190Wayne, and I've realized this even more so37300:14:27.190 --> 00:14:31.230on returning to the UK, and looking back37400:14:31.230 --> 00:14:33.090at my time in the States, I wish37500:14:33.090 --> 00:14:35.070I'd been more aware of it then also,37600:14:35.930 --> 00:14:40.310is just how different contexts and cultures are.37700:14:41.290 --> 00:14:43.630And even with the most sort of noble37800:14:43.630 --> 00:14:52.220and best of intentions, things don't necessarily work37900:14:52.220 --> 00:14:53.940that you want to work.38000:14:54.380 --> 00:14:57.300And it's not through anybody's fault, it's just38100:14:57.300 --> 00:15:00.000through how attuned we are to different cultures38200:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.900and kind of what's going on within them,38300:15:02.320 --> 00:15:05.060what people's hopes and aspirations and expectations are.38400:15:06.400 --> 00:15:08.580The Church of England, but I'm seeing it38500:15:08.580 --> 00:15:09.620in reverse.38600:15:10.180 --> 00:15:10.560So, yeah.38700:15:12.580 --> 00:15:14.960We've been visiting some other churches since.38800:15:15.060 --> 00:15:16.880I'm working on some other things as well.38900:15:17.660 --> 00:15:18.820And it's difficult.39000:15:19.200 --> 00:15:20.980Let me ask you, is it difficult for39100:15:20.980 --> 00:15:24.300you to go to church as a parishioner39200:15:24.300 --> 00:15:26.760and worship and receive?39300:15:27.000 --> 00:15:27.800Is that difficult?39400:15:28.020 --> 00:15:28.880Is it impossible?39500:15:31.040 --> 00:15:31.700Good question.39600:15:32.000 --> 00:15:37.280It varies in degrees of difficulty.39700:15:40.680 --> 00:15:45.880I don't think as much necessarily about experience.39800:15:48.170 --> 00:15:51.230I think what I'm discovering more and more39900:15:51.230 --> 00:15:55.810is that I really have less worry about40000:15:55.810 --> 00:15:59.270particular forms of worship, particular styles of music,40100:15:59.710 --> 00:16:02.630liturgy, no liturgy, formality and formality like that.40200:16:03.430 --> 00:16:05.730It's personal preference to a large degree.40300:16:07.850 --> 00:16:10.930What I look for is that sort of40400:16:10.930 --> 00:16:14.690sense where the insides match the outsides.40500:16:15.170 --> 00:16:16.930But what I really look for is that40600:16:16.930 --> 00:16:20.490sort of, these people really live this.40700:16:21.170 --> 00:16:22.310They really love this.40800:16:22.870 --> 00:16:24.950And it's not just words that they have40900:16:24.950 --> 00:16:25.610learned to say.41000:16:26.650 --> 00:16:27.970And that can be problematic for me.41100:16:28.170 --> 00:16:31.070And bad sermons, bad preaching always just, that's41200:16:31.070 --> 00:16:31.730a challenge.41300:16:31.730 --> 00:16:34.130And it's not so much, if you have41400:16:34.130 --> 00:16:36.270a different view of the gospel and you41500:16:36.270 --> 00:16:38.570preach the text of integrity, I can cope41600:16:38.570 --> 00:16:39.270with that.41700:16:39.370 --> 00:16:41.650It's just when I sense that you are41800:16:41.650 --> 00:16:44.690reading into a passage what you want to41900:16:44.690 --> 00:16:48.530get out of it, that's where I struggle.42000:16:49.790 --> 00:16:52.870You know, years ago, a translation of the42100:16:52.870 --> 00:16:55.370Bible came out and it was called the42200:16:55.370 --> 00:16:56.710Life Application Bible.42300:16:57.290 --> 00:16:58.790And I probably have one.42400:16:58.950 --> 00:17:00.770And you probably have one.42500:17:00.770 --> 00:17:03.910I don't know the scholarly depths of Scripture42600:17:03.910 --> 00:17:06.710or history or teaching that you do.42700:17:06.829 --> 00:17:09.130But I had a little problem with a42800:17:09.130 --> 00:17:13.329Bible that was basically, whether it was intended42900:17:13.329 --> 00:17:14.950to be used this way or not, what43000:17:14.950 --> 00:17:17.290I found people doing was, well, that's all43100:17:17.290 --> 00:17:18.550well and good, but what does that mean43200:17:18.550 --> 00:17:18.869to me?43300:17:19.030 --> 00:17:20.230How does that apply to me?43400:17:20.390 --> 00:17:22.670Rather than what you're saying, here's what it43500:17:22.670 --> 00:17:22.930is.43600:17:23.030 --> 00:17:24.510Here's not your opinion of it.43700:17:24.770 --> 00:17:25.970Here is what it says.43800:17:26.069 --> 00:17:27.170Here is what it teaches.43900:17:28.110 --> 00:17:30.570And, of course, everything's open to interpretation these44000:17:30.570 --> 00:17:33.130days according to whatever you want it to44100:17:33.130 --> 00:17:33.610be.44200:17:34.330 --> 00:17:36.030And here in the States, I don't know44300:17:36.030 --> 00:17:37.550how it is there, but here in the44400:17:37.550 --> 00:17:40.230States, the news media, you can know what44500:17:40.230 --> 00:17:42.450they're going to say by what channel you44600:17:42.450 --> 00:17:43.370choose to watch.44700:17:44.470 --> 00:17:46.430And, you know, back in my day, there44800:17:46.430 --> 00:17:50.410were journalists who would say, there was one44900:17:50.410 --> 00:17:51.650guy named Walter Cronkite.45000:17:51.730 --> 00:17:54.090He was the most famous CBS newsman, and45100:17:54.090 --> 00:17:56.510he would end every broadcast with, and that's45200:17:56.510 --> 00:17:57.330the way it is.45300:17:57.630 --> 00:17:59.790And I remember thinking later, it wasn't how45400:17:59.790 --> 00:18:00.610he thought it was.45500:18:00.850 --> 00:18:02.970It wasn't his interpretation of how it was.45600:18:03.250 --> 00:18:04.470That was how it is.45700:18:04.630 --> 00:18:07.450I can't buy it, actually, because I think45800:18:07.450 --> 00:18:09.530that's a product of modernism.45900:18:10.390 --> 00:18:13.010So the Enlightenment had us fooled into thinking46000:18:13.010 --> 00:18:15.690that we know how everything is.46100:18:15.750 --> 00:18:18.090But actually, that's all a product of a46200:18:18.090 --> 00:18:19.650very specific way of thought.46300:18:19.650 --> 00:18:22.870And I agree with you that today, there's46400:18:22.870 --> 00:18:27.030a sort of hyperbole and polarization, and depending46500:18:27.030 --> 00:18:29.310on which channel you're on, you get a46600:18:29.310 --> 00:18:32.430very different take and interpretation.46700:18:33.090 --> 00:18:34.810But I think it's actually a bit more46800:18:34.810 --> 00:18:38.510complex than that, because we are in a46900:18:38.510 --> 00:18:39.290more global world.47000:18:39.410 --> 00:18:41.850We have far more diversity of voices, the47100:18:41.850 --> 00:18:44.210actual work of wisdom, the work to really47200:18:44.210 --> 00:18:46.590discern what is going on.47300:18:47.230 --> 00:18:50.830We have a complexity of cultures and values47400:18:50.830 --> 00:18:52.190that are all competing as well.47500:18:52.330 --> 00:18:55.010So I don't think that we come from47600:18:55.010 --> 00:18:57.290an objective past, and we're now in this47700:18:57.290 --> 00:18:58.530kind of confused present.47800:18:58.670 --> 00:19:00.610I think the present is confused, but I47900:19:00.610 --> 00:19:04.090don't think the past was really all that48000:19:04.090 --> 00:19:05.770we think it was.48100:19:07.310 --> 00:19:10.370Do you find, as someone who's gone as48200:19:10.370 --> 00:19:14.430far as the education system allows in PhD48300:19:14.430 --> 00:19:16.330study and things like that, do you find48400:19:16.330 --> 00:19:19.410it difficult to not try to conclude that,48500:19:19.530 --> 00:19:20.750oh, I've got my hands around this?48600:19:20.850 --> 00:19:21.910I know what this is.48700:19:22.030 --> 00:19:23.890Or do you find in your personal life48800:19:23.890 --> 00:19:27.150that there's still room for mystery?48900:19:27.450 --> 00:19:28.710I think I know the answer to this.49000:19:29.290 --> 00:19:31.630Mystery and what in the world is going49100:19:31.630 --> 00:19:31.890on?49200:19:32.210 --> 00:19:32.310No.49300:19:32.570 --> 00:19:34.890Most people I know who have a good49400:19:34.890 --> 00:19:40.150PhD have learned through doing their PhD just49500:19:40.150 --> 00:19:41.150how little they know.49600:19:41.930 --> 00:19:46.070But actually, I wrote about 100,000 words49700:19:46.070 --> 00:19:50.250on two verses of Mark's gospel and a49800:19:50.250 --> 00:19:52.190bunch of passages from a Jewish text that49900:19:52.190 --> 00:19:53.150nobody's ever going to read.50000:19:55.750 --> 00:19:57.550And if I can write that much on50100:19:57.550 --> 00:20:00.630just this portion, how much more is there50200:20:00.630 --> 00:20:01.050to know?50300:20:01.430 --> 00:20:05.490So I think it can lead to almost50400:20:05.490 --> 00:20:08.530a crippling ignorance.50500:20:08.530 --> 00:20:11.030There is just so much to know.50600:20:11.110 --> 00:20:13.210How on earth could I comprehend that?50700:20:13.750 --> 00:20:15.750Find good articles, find good books, find good50800:20:15.750 --> 00:20:17.190resources, learn about stuff.50900:20:18.730 --> 00:20:20.210But of course, that doesn't make me an51000:20:20.210 --> 00:20:20.470expert.51100:20:20.650 --> 00:20:21.550It doesn't make me a trained expert.51200:20:21.710 --> 00:20:23.150So when I recently went to my doctor51300:20:23.150 --> 00:20:24.590with her, this is what I think is51400:20:24.590 --> 00:20:25.110going on.51500:20:25.350 --> 00:20:29.550He's like, well, yeah, but I was like,51600:20:29.670 --> 00:20:31.990I recognize he's the medical expert.51700:20:32.210 --> 00:20:34.550My PhD is not the kind that, I'm51800:20:34.550 --> 00:20:35.510a doctor, but I'm not the kind that51900:20:35.510 --> 00:20:36.910can help people get sick.52000:20:38.530 --> 00:20:41.130I'm quite happy to listen to what he52100:20:41.130 --> 00:20:43.450says and to kind of go with that.52200:20:43.710 --> 00:20:46.590But so there is a balance there that52300:20:46.590 --> 00:20:48.490kind of, I have these research skills, but52400:20:48.490 --> 00:20:51.790it's really easy for me to misuse them52500:20:51.790 --> 00:20:53.190and still get to their own conclusions because52600:20:53.190 --> 00:20:54.250I don't know other disciplines.52700:20:54.490 --> 00:20:56.250I know my discipline, but that doesn't mean52800:20:56.250 --> 00:21:00.730I know how psychology works, psychiatry works, medicine,52900:21:01.350 --> 00:21:03.990geology, whatever other ology you come up with.53000:21:05.030 --> 00:21:09.070We watch some medical dramas on TV occasionally,53100:21:09.070 --> 00:21:11.970and I'm always fascinated by what they know.53200:21:12.990 --> 00:21:15.510I mean, the depths of what they know.53300:21:15.710 --> 00:21:16.950It's interesting to me that you say the53400:21:16.950 --> 00:21:19.050more you learn, the more you realize how53500:21:19.050 --> 00:21:21.830much more there is to learn.53600:21:22.090 --> 00:21:23.870And on the opposite end of that spectrum,53700:21:23.930 --> 00:21:26.990I saw a clip yesterday, and a narrator53800:21:26.990 --> 00:21:34.390was asking young adults what country we were53900:21:34.390 --> 00:21:37.730liberated from in the revolution, and they did54000:21:37.730 --> 00:21:38.350not know.54100:21:39.070 --> 00:21:40.550They thought it was Europe.54200:21:41.850 --> 00:21:44.290And they also were asked what country is54300:21:44.290 --> 00:21:47.110the Panama Canal in, and they did not54400:21:47.110 --> 00:21:47.450know.54500:21:47.830 --> 00:21:50.690And they asked where was the Vietnam War54600:21:50.690 --> 00:21:53.050fought, and they did not know.54700:21:53.050 --> 00:21:58.390And so, on the other end of the—I'm54800:21:58.390 --> 00:22:00.870wondering, what in the world is going on?54900:22:01.030 --> 00:22:03.750What are— See, and this is—I've actually just—I55000:22:03.750 --> 00:22:05.470literally today have just finished a blog post55100:22:05.470 --> 00:22:06.390on this kind of topic.55200:22:06.630 --> 00:22:08.830But there's—I noticed it—the reason I speak of55300:22:08.830 --> 00:22:10.090it is when we first went back, we55400:22:10.090 --> 00:22:12.810noticed the phenomenon of sort of new slang55500:22:12.810 --> 00:22:14.690of people saying 100 percent.55600:22:14.890 --> 00:22:16.090Like, I'm 100 percent faithful.55700:22:16.230 --> 00:22:17.410I'm definitely faithful.55800:22:17.490 --> 00:22:19.750And I don't know about the U.S.,55900:22:19.750 --> 00:22:21.710but here, that's part of the sort of56000:22:21.710 --> 00:22:22.370everyday language.56100:22:22.370 --> 00:22:25.370I have a student, oh, did you like56200:22:25.370 --> 00:22:26.630that cake?56300:22:26.690 --> 00:22:27.730Oh, yeah, 100 percent.56400:22:31.350 --> 00:22:33.490And it's kind of cute on the one56500:22:33.490 --> 00:22:38.350hand, but it does sort of—it speaks to56600:22:38.350 --> 00:22:40.430the zeitgeist in some ways, that there's this56700:22:40.430 --> 00:22:46.710sort of absolutism and confidence in what we56800:22:46.710 --> 00:22:49.950think we know and the opinions that we56900:22:49.950 --> 00:22:52.630hold, that this is the way it is.57000:22:52.970 --> 00:22:55.390And Steve and I had a really funny57100:22:55.390 --> 00:22:59.350interaction with a stranger at Heathrow Airport last57200:22:59.350 --> 00:22:59.650Christmas.57300:22:59.810 --> 00:23:01.910We were on our way to Prague, and57400:23:01.910 --> 00:23:03.750it was about two elevators that were next57500:23:03.750 --> 00:23:06.290to each other, 20 people queuing up for57600:23:06.290 --> 00:23:08.250one, nobody queuing up for the other.57700:23:08.970 --> 00:23:10.270And it's kind of—the signage was a bit57800:23:10.270 --> 00:23:13.530confusing about where they—you know, whether they go57900:23:13.530 --> 00:23:14.370to the same place or not.58000:23:14.830 --> 00:23:16.710And we'd asked the attendant where to go,58100:23:16.770 --> 00:23:18.170and she'd said to use the elevators.58200:23:18.850 --> 00:23:21.310So we were headed for the one, but58300:23:21.310 --> 00:23:23.310then we looked, and we realized that everybody's58400:23:23.310 --> 00:23:24.210queuing up for the other one, and we're58500:23:24.210 --> 00:23:24.910not sure what to do.58600:23:24.970 --> 00:23:26.190And this middle-aged guy's like, no, no,58700:23:26.230 --> 00:23:27.390no, no, that one doesn't go to the58800:23:27.390 --> 00:23:29.470same place, 100 percent, 100 percent, there's not58900:23:29.470 --> 00:23:31.090going to happen, 100 percent.59000:23:32.910 --> 00:23:34.430So we thought we'd try it anyway.59100:23:34.710 --> 00:23:36.490Turns out it goes to exactly the same59200:23:36.490 --> 00:23:37.110place.59300:23:38.530 --> 00:23:40.450For the rest of our holiday, you know,59400:23:40.530 --> 00:23:42.550it was a great diffuser in moments of59500:23:42.550 --> 00:23:46.110marital tension, when somebody comes in confidently, and59600:23:46.110 --> 00:23:47.310then we'll just say to each other, so59700:23:47.310 --> 00:23:48.050you sure about that?59800:23:48.430 --> 00:23:50.630Like, 100 percent sure about that?59900:23:52.710 --> 00:23:55.590Because we do, we talk in these ways60000:23:55.590 --> 00:23:58.450where we are so confident about things and60100:23:58.450 --> 00:24:00.350yet so completely wrong.60200:24:01.770 --> 00:24:02.550I don't know.60300:24:02.690 --> 00:24:04.650I'm less confident about a lot of things60400:24:04.650 --> 00:24:06.030than I used to be, and I'm okay60500:24:06.030 --> 00:24:06.490with that.60600:24:06.890 --> 00:24:08.430I just don't have the energy to be60700:24:08.430 --> 00:24:10.630that assured about much of anything anymore.60800:24:10.630 --> 00:24:12.730One of the things, one of the messages60900:24:12.730 --> 00:24:14.230we heard, we were talking about going to61000:24:14.230 --> 00:24:17.590church, different churches, it's difficult for me.61100:24:18.370 --> 00:24:20.750It's difficult for me to listen to music61200:24:20.750 --> 00:24:24.830and to worship through it, especially when I61300:24:24.830 --> 00:24:28.330consider it to be not that great.61400:24:29.690 --> 00:24:31.490If I consider it to not have much61500:24:31.490 --> 00:24:35.410energy or, I mean, I don't go with61600:24:35.410 --> 00:24:37.930the repetitive thing because some of the grades61700:24:37.930 --> 00:24:38.510were repetitive.61800:24:38.510 --> 00:24:42.370The hallelujah chorus is somewhat repetitive, so I61900:24:42.370 --> 00:24:43.230can't go there.62000:24:43.710 --> 00:24:48.010But it's difficult sometimes to go to church62100:24:48.010 --> 00:24:51.410and worship without being a critic, and I62200:24:51.410 --> 00:24:54.410guess that's just part of the occupational hazard62300:24:54.410 --> 00:24:57.530that both of us have experienced at times,62400:24:57.710 --> 00:25:00.970and I'm just trying to empty myself of62500:25:00.970 --> 00:25:01.170that.62600:25:01.170 --> 00:25:04.230I think the value for me about coming62700:25:04.230 --> 00:25:09.610back to the UK was, well, American churches62800:25:09.610 --> 00:25:11.790by and large are very well-resourced.62900:25:12.370 --> 00:25:14.930Even the ones that think they aren't comparatively63000:25:14.930 --> 00:25:17.790are very well-resourced to any average church63100:25:17.790 --> 00:25:22.530over here, and so it's much easier for63200:25:22.530 --> 00:25:23.790me to go into a church that I63300:25:23.790 --> 00:25:26.430know has very little but is doing the63400:25:26.430 --> 00:25:29.010best with what it has to accept that,63500:25:29.690 --> 00:25:31.770and then it's like, well, I don't care63600:25:31.770 --> 00:25:34.950if the salmon's half-baked or they're not63700:25:34.950 --> 00:25:36.370quite sure what they're doing, or the music's63800:25:36.370 --> 00:25:39.090bad, or whatever else it is, because this63900:25:39.090 --> 00:25:42.670is the best they are able to bring.64000:25:43.930 --> 00:25:45.810The challenge comes in when you get to64100:25:45.810 --> 00:25:49.930that level of professionalization and resource that you64200:25:49.930 --> 00:25:53.270want to see it done well, and balancing64300:25:53.270 --> 00:25:58.990that with our own humanity is a tricky64400:25:58.990 --> 00:25:59.570enterprise.64500:26:00.870 --> 00:26:02.230Yeah, it's not straightforward.64600:26:02.810 --> 00:26:05.610You said sometimes it's difficult to listen to64700:26:05.610 --> 00:26:08.530sermons or to even have a conversation with64800:26:08.530 --> 00:26:12.150someone if your perception of that person is64900:26:12.150 --> 00:26:14.050different from the reality of that person.65000:26:14.130 --> 00:26:15.470How do you separate those two?65100:26:15.470 --> 00:26:19.110I can come into an encounter in a65200:26:19.110 --> 00:26:22.570conversation, in a meeting, and again, not proud65300:26:22.570 --> 00:26:24.590of it, but I can immediately conclude, like65400:26:24.590 --> 00:26:26.050you concluded that you aren't going to like65500:26:26.050 --> 00:26:29.470me, but I can immediately conclude something about65600:26:29.470 --> 00:26:33.770that person based on what, and really, that's65700:26:33.770 --> 00:26:34.410my problem.65800:26:34.490 --> 00:26:37.590That's not their problem, and I struggle with65900:26:37.590 --> 00:26:40.710that, but how do you disassociate yourself from66000:26:40.710 --> 00:26:42.430the perception, from the truth of someone?66100:26:43.230 --> 00:26:47.910Well, I think first, knowing that my perception66200:26:47.910 --> 00:26:51.250of things and their reality are two different66300:26:51.250 --> 00:26:52.990entities is a really helpful one.66400:26:53.390 --> 00:26:55.810I have a friend, actually, he died in66500:26:55.810 --> 00:26:57.810December, his name was Michael, and he would66600:26:57.810 --> 00:27:00.730talk about the fact of the situation, or66700:27:00.730 --> 00:27:03.030the person, or whatever, and the story we66800:27:03.030 --> 00:27:04.090tell ourselves about them.66900:27:04.390 --> 00:27:06.090Like, why somebody does what they do, I67000:27:06.090 --> 00:27:07.090have absolutely no idea.67100:27:07.530 --> 00:27:10.890I don't know why Wade invited me onto67200:27:10.890 --> 00:27:11.390his podcast.67300:27:11.670 --> 00:27:15.030I don't know why Wickham decided to hire67400:27:15.030 --> 00:27:15.210me.67500:27:16.590 --> 00:27:20.390I'm not inside anybody's mind, and I've given67600:27:20.390 --> 00:27:22.250up trying to be a mind reader, so67700:27:22.250 --> 00:27:26.050I think when we start to kind of67800:27:26.050 --> 00:27:27.950be aware that I might have this thought67900:27:27.950 --> 00:27:30.030about why somebody's asking me to do something,68000:27:30.150 --> 00:27:32.290or why somebody's saying what they're saying, or68100:27:32.290 --> 00:27:35.430behaving the way they're behaving, but actually, that's68200:27:35.430 --> 00:27:37.050not necessarily what's going on.68300:27:37.150 --> 00:27:39.050Let's give it some time and see what68400:27:39.050 --> 00:27:39.610happens.68500:27:40.110 --> 00:27:42.150That's just a really helpful thing to know68600:27:42.150 --> 00:27:42.410about.68700:27:42.430 --> 00:27:43.870On the flip side of that, I think68800:27:43.870 --> 00:27:45.410one of the things that I've come to68900:27:45.410 --> 00:27:48.730realise, a lot of times when I meet69000:27:48.730 --> 00:27:51.230somebody, I might have my preconceptions about them,69100:27:51.550 --> 00:27:52.670and then I get to know them, and69200:27:52.670 --> 00:27:54.890I discover they're not who I thought they69300:27:54.890 --> 00:27:58.250were, they are, and even better, or whatever69400:27:58.250 --> 00:27:59.590else, and it kind of all goes very69500:27:59.590 --> 00:27:59.910smoothly.69600:28:00.910 --> 00:28:02.450But there are times where you meet somebody,69700:28:02.950 --> 00:28:06.010and they kind of get under your skin,69800:28:06.330 --> 00:28:06.670you know?69900:28:09.830 --> 00:28:11.870Obviously, Wayne, this has never happened to you.70000:28:11.990 --> 00:28:17.070It feels personal, and I think I probably70100:28:17.070 --> 00:28:18.530would emphasise the word feels.70200:28:20.030 --> 00:28:22.730Again, this is still a story I'm telling70300:28:22.730 --> 00:28:24.950myself, but clearly, the story is coming from70400:28:24.950 --> 00:28:28.190somewhere a bit deeper within me, so I70500:28:28.190 --> 00:28:30.590think for me, in those moments, it is70600:28:30.590 --> 00:28:33.730about treating myself a bit like a toddler,70700:28:34.110 --> 00:28:36.590or a teenager, I'm not sure which, and70800:28:36.590 --> 00:28:38.210can I, okay, let's go and sit down,70900:28:38.450 --> 00:28:40.330let's take a beat, let's breathe.71000:28:40.950 --> 00:28:41.930What are you feeling?71100:28:44.210 --> 00:28:46.350Who does it remind you of?71200:28:48.030 --> 00:28:51.670I remember reading a book by a neurologist,71300:28:51.810 --> 00:28:56.670and she talked about feelings as predictions, and71400:28:56.670 --> 00:28:58.110so kind of the way that we're raised,71500:28:58.210 --> 00:29:00.110the experiences we've had in early life and71600:29:00.110 --> 00:29:06.750young adulthood have trained our brains to see71700:29:06.750 --> 00:29:10.190blessing and threat in different places.71800:29:11.010 --> 00:29:12.870If somebody says a certain thing or acts71900:29:12.870 --> 00:29:16.830in a certain way, I'm more predisposed to72000:29:16.830 --> 00:29:19.810feel safe around them, to trust them, conversely,72100:29:19.870 --> 00:29:21.710if they act in a different way, then72200:29:21.710 --> 00:29:26.050the opposite is true, and so if I'm72300:29:26.050 --> 00:29:28.670aware that actually my feelings, and even my72400:29:28.670 --> 00:29:32.670quite intense feelings, are at best predictions based72500:29:32.670 --> 00:29:35.550on past experience, that gives me a little72600:29:35.550 --> 00:29:40.190bit of a window to explore why is72700:29:40.190 --> 00:29:41.330that, is that still true?72800:29:42.170 --> 00:29:45.370What was your upbringing like that would have72900:29:45.370 --> 00:29:47.830formed some of these things you're talking about,73000:29:47.910 --> 00:29:49.650some of these opinions about people, how you73100:29:49.650 --> 00:29:50.530respond to people?73200:29:51.410 --> 00:29:54.630Well, like I said earlier, there's the class73300:29:54.630 --> 00:29:58.290divide and the education divide in Oxford, so73400:29:58.290 --> 00:30:00.930if you have a certain accent, for example,73500:30:01.590 --> 00:30:04.570I'm more inclined to make certain assumptions about73600:30:04.570 --> 00:30:07.210you, and you're probably more likely to make73700:30:07.210 --> 00:30:10.250certain assumptions and about me, if it's an73800:30:10.250 --> 00:30:11.290English accent.73900:30:13.250 --> 00:30:16.250I mean, I grew up in a family74000:30:16.250 --> 00:30:23.270of three older brothers, so I know my74100:30:23.270 --> 00:30:27.030predictions are less clear when it's women, because74200:30:27.030 --> 00:30:30.070I'm used to boy talk, I'm used to74300:30:30.070 --> 00:30:32.910boy conflict, I know how that works.74400:30:33.030 --> 00:30:34.810I don't know how sisters interact, I've never74500:30:34.810 --> 00:30:35.390had one.74600:30:36.970 --> 00:30:38.810There are things about my childhood that were74700:30:38.810 --> 00:30:42.350particularly hard about my family and upbringing, and74800:30:42.350 --> 00:30:49.450have left their mark in painful ways, and74900:30:49.450 --> 00:30:52.950so there's that whole thing as well, but75000:30:52.950 --> 00:30:54.290it's also a Christian family.75100:30:55.470 --> 00:30:58.130For me, sometimes I can get a bit75200:30:58.130 --> 00:31:02.630suspicious around Christian talk and superficial niceness, I75300:31:02.630 --> 00:31:04.210think perhaps that's part of where that comes75400:31:04.210 --> 00:31:05.410from, is that it's a bit of a75500:31:05.410 --> 00:31:06.450doublespeak to me.75600:31:06.670 --> 00:31:08.150I have to see people do the right75700:31:08.150 --> 00:31:11.550thing before I really believe what they say.75800:31:12.150 --> 00:31:14.410We've all been fooled by that kind of75900:31:14.410 --> 00:31:14.730talk.76000:31:15.770 --> 00:31:19.090I grew up in a very small town,76100:31:19.450 --> 00:31:20.990and my dad was a World War II76200:31:20.990 --> 00:31:24.030Navy veteran, he actually spent time in your76300:31:24.030 --> 00:31:31.150country, and we kind of blindly followed TV76400:31:31.150 --> 00:31:35.890preachers and some of different denominations, and they76500:31:35.890 --> 00:31:39.590just sounded so sure of themselves, and eventually76600:31:39.590 --> 00:31:41.290a lot of them weren't so sure of76700:31:41.290 --> 00:31:43.410themselves, and it really broke my dad's heart.76800:31:43.650 --> 00:31:46.130It really hurt him that they were not76900:31:46.130 --> 00:31:48.290doing what they were saying, but we've all77000:31:48.290 --> 00:31:49.770been fooled by that, so I don't know77100:31:49.770 --> 00:31:51.310that that's unhealthy to have a little bit77200:31:51.310 --> 00:31:53.790of a check when something comes down the77300:31:53.790 --> 00:31:57.710pipe, because I think we're instructed in the77400:31:57.710 --> 00:32:01.630Scripture to be wise, but talking about the77500:32:01.630 --> 00:32:03.790perceptions of people with accents, first of all,77600:32:03.790 --> 00:32:06.910when you were preaching at St. Martin's, I77700:32:06.910 --> 00:32:09.890almost needed closed captions.77800:32:10.130 --> 00:32:12.890I requested from the tech staff, can we77900:32:12.890 --> 00:32:14.270put closed captions up on there?78000:32:14.330 --> 00:32:17.210Because, I mean, it was so fascinating, and78100:32:17.210 --> 00:32:18.710I just really wondered, do you guys really78200:32:18.710 --> 00:32:20.470talk that way in private, or are you78300:32:20.470 --> 00:32:22.130just doing that to make it feel inferior?78400:32:22.130 --> 00:32:23.130It's worse.78500:32:25.670 --> 00:32:26.670It's worse.78600:32:27.490 --> 00:32:28.810100%, Wayne, 100%.78700:32:32.210 --> 00:32:33.310Oh, my gosh.78800:32:33.710 --> 00:32:39.650Is the racial issue as intense in the78900:32:39.650 --> 00:32:42.110UK as you perceived it to be here79000:32:42.110 --> 00:32:42.830in the United States?79100:32:42.890 --> 00:32:46.770It's not as intense, but that's because America79200:32:46.770 --> 00:32:48.910is more intense than Britain in more or79300:32:48.910 --> 00:32:49.730less every way.79400:32:50.270 --> 00:32:53.390We care about things like tea and queues,79500:32:53.630 --> 00:32:58.010and talking about the weather, we don't get79600:32:58.010 --> 00:32:59.350intense about other things.79700:32:59.570 --> 00:33:01.450The English people like to pretend they don't79800:33:01.450 --> 00:33:02.850exist and sweep them under the carpet.79900:33:04.030 --> 00:33:06.990So, I wouldn't say it's as intense.80000:33:08.770 --> 00:33:12.730Well, England is a class-based country, and80100:33:12.730 --> 00:33:14.150whilst the...80200:33:14.150 --> 00:33:15.210I mean, I saw this thing on Instagram,80300:33:15.430 --> 00:33:18.210one of those history accounts showing photos from80400:33:18.210 --> 00:33:18.690the past.80500:33:18.990 --> 00:33:21.590It's a picture from the 1920s, and you've80600:33:21.590 --> 00:33:25.370got two or three middle-class, upper-class80700:33:25.370 --> 00:33:28.830boys dressed in tails and, you know, carrying80800:33:28.830 --> 00:33:30.310a little briefcase or something.80900:33:30.710 --> 00:33:34.210And then you had three working-class boys81000:33:34.210 --> 00:33:38.470in sort of much more run-down, runabout81100:33:38.470 --> 00:33:38.950clothing.81200:33:39.850 --> 00:33:41.610And you can just, you know, just very,81300:33:41.710 --> 00:33:42.650very, very different.81400:33:42.830 --> 00:33:44.690It was very visible, the class difference.81500:33:45.150 --> 00:33:46.590I don't think the class difference is quite81600:33:46.590 --> 00:33:51.630as visible today, but accents still give it81700:33:51.630 --> 00:33:51.870away.81800:33:52.010 --> 00:33:53.930I mean, this is more than race, but81900:33:53.930 --> 00:33:54.650I mean, if it's...82000:33:54.650 --> 00:33:56.110Well, my point is, if it's there with82100:33:56.110 --> 00:33:56.930just...82200:33:56.930 --> 00:34:00.470with class, how much more so when you82300:34:00.470 --> 00:34:02.570have people who have a different skin color?82400:34:03.590 --> 00:34:05.350Obviously, a lot of the things that we82500:34:05.350 --> 00:34:08.230embraced over the last 100 years came from82600:34:08.230 --> 00:34:09.530England.82700:34:10.190 --> 00:34:11.949The last time we were in London, we82800:34:11.949 --> 00:34:13.150took a rock-and-roll tour.82900:34:13.389 --> 00:34:15.050We took a walking rock-and-roll tour.83000:34:15.909 --> 00:34:17.650And I didn't know that it would be83100:34:17.650 --> 00:34:20.350that interesting to me, although I'm very fascinated83200:34:20.350 --> 00:34:21.889by history of all kinds.83300:34:22.510 --> 00:34:26.730One of my favorite podcasts I listen to83400:34:26.730 --> 00:34:28.250now is called The Rest is History by83500:34:28.250 --> 00:34:32.489Tom Holland and Dominic, and they go back83600:34:32.489 --> 00:34:33.469into all kinds of things.83700:34:33.510 --> 00:34:35.590But we did a walking tour of...83800:34:35.590 --> 00:34:37.690a music tour in London, and we stood83900:34:37.690 --> 00:34:41.090there, and they pointed up, that's where Reg84000:34:41.090 --> 00:34:44.210Dwight, Elton John, and Bernie Taupin first met.84100:34:44.330 --> 00:34:46.610That's where Keith Richards and Mick Jagger first84200:34:46.610 --> 00:34:46.810met.84300:34:46.889 --> 00:34:48.230And I just find that fascinating.84400:34:48.389 --> 00:34:49.730It was like being in...84500:34:49.730 --> 00:34:51.610going to Israel, and I thought, well, it'll84600:34:51.610 --> 00:34:52.630be interesting.84700:34:52.850 --> 00:34:54.850I love history, but to walk in places84800:34:54.850 --> 00:34:57.490that this actually happened, I just found it84900:34:57.490 --> 00:34:58.550fascinating to be there.85000:34:58.630 --> 00:34:59.950But a lot of the influence came.85100:35:00.370 --> 00:35:01.690I wish we could just chill a little85200:35:01.690 --> 00:35:01.930more.85300:35:02.070 --> 00:35:03.290One of the things I love about the85400:35:03.290 --> 00:35:05.550UK is it is just a little more85500:35:07.670 --> 00:35:09.810stiff-upper-lip, and...85600:35:10.510 --> 00:35:12.130I think there's also...85700:35:12.130 --> 00:35:14.170it's interesting kind of in terms of social85800:35:14.170 --> 00:35:16.050currency.85900:35:16.790 --> 00:35:18.470I remember when Steve and I first moved86000:35:18.470 --> 00:35:20.150to Texas, and he was calling out the86100:35:20.150 --> 00:35:20.370plumber.86200:35:20.730 --> 00:35:22.070And to me, it sounded like they were86300:35:22.070 --> 00:35:22.490arguing.86400:35:25.090 --> 00:35:28.090But they were just flashing out the work,86500:35:28.150 --> 00:35:28.350right?86600:35:28.370 --> 00:35:29.590That's just what was going on.86700:35:30.250 --> 00:35:32.790And the other example would be, whatever I86800:35:32.790 --> 00:35:35.750think of, is medical bills, because having lived86900:35:35.750 --> 00:35:36.850with the NHS, I've never had to pay87000:35:36.850 --> 00:35:38.890a medical bill other than a prescription.87100:35:39.790 --> 00:35:41.930And so when I would go to a87200:35:41.930 --> 00:35:44.330doctor in Houston, you get given some kind87300:35:44.330 --> 00:35:48.150of surgery fee at the clinic, you pay87400:35:48.150 --> 00:35:49.710it, and then I would get a thing87500:35:49.710 --> 00:35:51.710through the post a few weeks later saying,87600:35:52.150 --> 00:35:52.690this is your bill.87700:35:52.690 --> 00:35:57.890The American culture seems to be sort of87800:35:57.890 --> 00:36:00.590innately set up for a more adversarial system.87900:36:01.850 --> 00:36:03.870But in the UK, there's a sense of88000:36:03.870 --> 00:36:07.610social kindness is that much more important.88100:36:08.550 --> 00:36:10.470You don't have to mean it, but it's88200:36:10.470 --> 00:36:11.290important to do it.88300:36:12.070 --> 00:36:14.710And the politeness of letting the car in,88400:36:15.210 --> 00:36:17.270and letting the person cut you in in88500:36:17.270 --> 00:36:17.570traffic.88600:36:17.750 --> 00:36:19.030That happens here.88700:36:19.330 --> 00:36:20.730You don't have to force your way.88800:36:20.730 --> 00:36:21.690People will do it.88900:36:21.830 --> 00:36:23.130You give a little hand gesture.89000:36:23.470 --> 00:36:24.670If you don't get the hand gesture, you89100:36:24.670 --> 00:36:26.210might feel a little bit annoyed.89200:36:26.610 --> 00:36:27.570Just a little, oh, thanks.89300:36:27.790 --> 00:36:28.090That's it.89400:36:28.410 --> 00:36:28.970That's it.89500:36:29.530 --> 00:36:30.910You better give me the little thank you89600:36:30.910 --> 00:36:33.770wave, or something in me next time is89700:36:33.770 --> 00:36:35.950going to, I didn't get the thank you89800:36:35.950 --> 00:36:36.110wave.89900:36:36.690 --> 00:36:38.890Steve tells me that part of it is90000:36:38.890 --> 00:36:39.890about island culture.90100:36:40.850 --> 00:36:43.310Because people on an island, there's nowhere to90200:36:43.310 --> 00:36:44.130go, right?90300:36:44.610 --> 00:36:46.910I have to live with you.90400:36:47.030 --> 00:36:49.630There's no alternative, right?90500:36:49.690 --> 00:36:50.950There's nowhere for me to go.90600:36:51.390 --> 00:36:53.970So yeah, from that context, and because the90700:36:53.970 --> 00:36:56.810UK is a much older people that are90800:36:56.810 --> 00:37:00.550here, have been here for centuries, largely speaking.90900:37:00.970 --> 00:37:03.890And so we've learned to kind of negotiate91000:37:03.890 --> 00:37:06.530what it means to live in cross quarters91100:37:06.530 --> 00:37:07.190with one another.91200:37:07.570 --> 00:37:07.990Right.91300:37:08.070 --> 00:37:12.790But in Texas, in the States, hey, well,91400:37:12.830 --> 00:37:13.870I'm just going to head up over there.91500:37:15.730 --> 00:37:16.170Interesting.91600:37:16.550 --> 00:37:17.590That's fascinating.91700:37:18.190 --> 00:37:20.530So, I mean, there are some differences, and91800:37:20.530 --> 00:37:22.490I do find it much less stressful from91900:37:22.490 --> 00:37:23.750that point of being here.92000:37:23.830 --> 00:37:25.910I've been back in the UK, but I92100:37:25.910 --> 00:37:29.070don't see it as simply a case of,92200:37:29.130 --> 00:37:31.230well, there's more character and virtue here, and92300:37:31.230 --> 00:37:32.890there's less over there or whatever else.92400:37:33.110 --> 00:37:37.330There's these sort of cultural contextual factors that...92500:37:37.330 --> 00:37:39.550I wish sometimes that we could just get92600:37:39.550 --> 00:37:40.990there and just say, it's just different.92700:37:41.230 --> 00:37:41.970It's okay.92800:37:42.870 --> 00:37:46.330And the racial element here, we're in the92900:37:46.330 --> 00:37:49.290middle of rodeo season here in Houston, which93000:37:49.290 --> 00:37:51.230is one of the biggest things that happens93100:37:51.230 --> 00:37:53.630during the year, three weeks of Houston Life93200:37:53.630 --> 00:37:54.590Talks from Rodeo.93300:37:55.150 --> 00:37:57.390And Saturday night, they had to close down93400:37:57.390 --> 00:37:58.870early because a fight broke out.93500:37:59.630 --> 00:38:04.090I think this whole tension over perception of93600:38:04.090 --> 00:38:05.990what you might be like because your skin93700:38:05.990 --> 00:38:07.650is this color or because you talk this93800:38:07.650 --> 00:38:10.510way, or you came from there, especially right93900:38:10.510 --> 00:38:12.850now with the tensions of war.94000:38:13.910 --> 00:38:15.710I just want to go up to people94100:38:15.710 --> 00:38:19.670sometime to say, whether you're black or Middle94200:38:19.670 --> 00:38:22.410Eastern or...94300:38:22.410 --> 00:38:24.790Just give me a chance to love you.94400:38:24.990 --> 00:38:26.930Give me a chance to be your friend94500:38:26.930 --> 00:38:28.410and to treat you in a Christ-like94600:38:28.410 --> 00:38:28.810manner.94700:38:28.810 --> 00:38:31.530Don't write me off, and I will try94800:38:31.530 --> 00:38:32.690to write you off.94900:38:32.770 --> 00:38:33.630Give me a chance.95000:38:34.250 --> 00:38:39.190My son is three races mixed up, and95100:38:39.190 --> 00:38:41.890I have never learned more about God or95200:38:41.890 --> 00:38:45.770about racial lack of choice.95300:38:45.950 --> 00:38:46.630I had no choice.95400:38:46.710 --> 00:38:47.590You had no choice.95500:38:47.770 --> 00:38:49.630This reminds me of a book I've been95600:38:49.630 --> 00:38:52.930reading by a woman named Gwen Adshead, and95700:38:52.930 --> 00:38:54.590she's a forensic psychiatrist.95800:38:55.630 --> 00:38:59.430Forensic psychiatrist works with the criminals when they95900:38:59.430 --> 00:39:03.650are in prison or in a security hospital.96000:39:04.710 --> 00:39:07.850She's worked in Broadmoor, which is a very96100:39:07.850 --> 00:39:11.270famous high security mental hospital here in the96200:39:11.270 --> 00:39:11.570UK.96300:39:12.450 --> 00:39:14.630She's consulted all over the country and all96400:39:14.630 --> 00:39:15.170kinds of stuff.96500:39:15.910 --> 00:39:17.890And she wrote this book called The Devil96600:39:17.890 --> 00:39:18.450You Know.96700:39:19.570 --> 00:39:23.330There's about 12 different chapters of different clients96800:39:23.330 --> 00:39:28.630she's worked with, slightly anonymized to respect patient96900:39:28.630 --> 00:39:33.390confidentiality, exploring people who have committed the worst97000:39:33.390 --> 00:39:37.290of crimes, truly horrific crimes.97100:39:38.950 --> 00:39:43.010And for me reading it, it has been97200:39:43.010 --> 00:39:46.630a lesson in what it is to see97300:39:46.630 --> 00:39:47.650the human in another.97400:39:48.210 --> 00:39:50.670If you can actually read about somebody who's97500:39:50.670 --> 00:39:54.790been a murderer, who's committed murder, who's abused97600:39:54.790 --> 00:39:58.470a child, who has done truly horrific things97700:39:58.470 --> 00:40:01.950for which they deserve punishment, they deserve to97800:40:01.950 --> 00:40:03.150go through the justice system.97900:40:03.790 --> 00:40:05.790But if you can still see them as98000:40:05.790 --> 00:40:10.610human, then understand that they are not evil98100:40:10.610 --> 00:40:11.450people per se.98200:40:11.510 --> 00:40:12.970They may have done evil things.98300:40:12.970 --> 00:40:13.590Mm-hmm.98400:40:14.550 --> 00:40:16.690If we can grasp that, then how much98500:40:16.690 --> 00:40:18.210more can we...98600:40:18.210 --> 00:40:21.410If that's the extreme, then that should encourage98700:40:21.410 --> 00:40:23.470us to so much more of a more98800:40:23.470 --> 00:40:26.490compassionate and kinder way of living with those98900:40:26.490 --> 00:40:29.270who haven't done these kinds of things.99000:40:30.490 --> 00:40:31.170But it was just...99100:40:31.170 --> 00:40:36.230Don't you find it a more content, peaceful99200:40:36.230 --> 00:40:39.250way to live to not be so judgmental99300:40:39.250 --> 00:40:41.170toward people like that, but to read about99400:40:41.170 --> 00:40:44.690them and understand them and realize that grace99500:40:44.690 --> 00:40:47.570is not only at the depth we understand99600:40:47.570 --> 00:40:49.390it, but if...99700:40:49.390 --> 00:40:51.050And you know you, and I know me,99800:40:51.230 --> 00:40:52.770and I know what people think of you99900:40:52.770 --> 00:40:54.650and what people might assume they know about100000:40:54.650 --> 00:40:58.430me, but I know this, and I've been100100:40:58.430 --> 00:41:01.110spared many things, but I do know this.100200:41:01.250 --> 00:41:03.250If the grace of God reaches into this100300:41:03.250 --> 00:41:06.610heart that can be dark and off the100400:41:06.610 --> 00:41:08.590rails, where does it stop?100500:41:08.990 --> 00:41:10.610Is there a limit to God's grace?100600:41:10.810 --> 00:41:12.390Is there someone He cannot reach?100700:41:12.470 --> 00:41:14.010Of course, they did bad things, and there100800:41:14.010 --> 00:41:14.670are consequences.100900:41:14.990 --> 00:41:16.410I don't want what I deserve.101000:41:17.370 --> 00:41:18.470I know what I deserve.101100:41:18.470 --> 00:41:21.210What we seem to miss out on this101200:41:21.210 --> 00:41:24.390kind of conversation is that, actually, the person101300:41:24.390 --> 00:41:28.630who seems so different from me, whichever characteristic101400:41:28.630 --> 00:41:31.630I might pick out of or part of101500:41:31.630 --> 00:41:33.850their history that I might point to as101600:41:33.850 --> 00:41:37.370a point of difference, they are me.101700:41:37.510 --> 00:41:38.270I am them.101800:41:39.830 --> 00:41:43.810I've not murdered anybody, but I've certainly felt101900:41:43.810 --> 00:41:45.650murderous at moments in my life.102000:41:47.750 --> 00:41:50.370You know, God's grace extends to them because102100:41:50.370 --> 00:41:51.210they are different.102200:41:51.730 --> 00:41:54.930God's grace extends to them, and I am102300:41:54.930 --> 00:41:55.670like them.102400:41:57.390 --> 00:42:00.350I may not have had everything that they've102500:42:00.350 --> 00:42:00.510had.102600:42:00.510 --> 00:42:01.810I may not have done the things that102700:42:01.810 --> 00:42:05.770they've done, but the stories, the things that102800:42:05.770 --> 00:42:08.150have taken them there, the pain, the suffering,102900:42:08.630 --> 00:42:10.510there is so much that we have in103000:42:10.510 --> 00:42:10.870common.103100:42:11.170 --> 00:42:13.350There is so much that we share, and103200:42:13.350 --> 00:42:15.310I think part of the reason we kind103300:42:15.310 --> 00:42:16.970of go, I don't want to talk to103400:42:16.970 --> 00:42:17.390those people.103500:42:17.490 --> 00:42:19.670I don't want to engage with that group103600:42:19.670 --> 00:42:23.190of people is because, ultimately, we're scared of103700:42:23.190 --> 00:42:23.870facing ourselves.103800:42:26.170 --> 00:42:27.930I don't want to face the murderous about103900:42:27.930 --> 00:42:28.170me.104000:42:28.370 --> 00:42:29.690I don't want to face the shameful.104100:42:29.690 --> 00:42:32.670I don't want to face the socially unacceptable104200:42:32.670 --> 00:42:35.350parts of my heart and life.104300:42:35.490 --> 00:42:36.270I agree with you.104400:42:36.730 --> 00:42:38.910Like, God's grace extends to me is really104500:42:38.910 --> 00:42:42.010quite alarming if you knew what went on104600:42:42.010 --> 00:42:42.830inside of me.104700:42:43.370 --> 00:42:43.470Yeah.104800:42:44.870 --> 00:42:45.390Wow.104900:42:46.130 --> 00:42:49.430You delivered a lecture on the subject of105000:42:49.430 --> 00:42:53.910when God goes silent, and we've all gone105100:42:53.910 --> 00:42:54.910through times like that.105200:42:55.130 --> 00:42:57.190Talk about when God goes silent.105300:42:57.310 --> 00:42:59.390What led you to write and speak to105400:42:59.390 --> 00:42:59.950that issue?105500:43:02.870 --> 00:43:03.510Okay.105600:43:04.450 --> 00:43:06.030It's personal and it's academic.105700:43:06.590 --> 00:43:12.090I think I had one relative and two105800:43:12.090 --> 00:43:15.050friends die within the space of about six105900:43:15.050 --> 00:43:17.410years when I was just out of high106000:43:17.410 --> 00:43:19.550school, in my 20s.106100:43:21.390 --> 00:43:24.310It took all of those three tragedies to106200:43:24.310 --> 00:43:28.970happen to actually break through my very hardened106300:43:28.970 --> 00:43:31.490exterior of, wow, I know who God is,106400:43:31.570 --> 00:43:32.950and this is who God is, so I106500:43:32.950 --> 00:43:34.010can make sense of all of that.106600:43:34.650 --> 00:43:36.790A little bit more of a mature understanding106700:43:36.790 --> 00:43:38.590of, this doesn't make sense, and this is106800:43:38.590 --> 00:43:39.390tragic and awful.106900:43:42.110 --> 00:43:44.850It was a few years later when I107000:43:44.850 --> 00:43:46.210had a breakdown when I was training for107100:43:46.210 --> 00:43:46.570ordination.107200:43:47.730 --> 00:43:52.190It was just this sense of the way107300:43:52.190 --> 00:43:53.470in which I've come to know the world,107400:43:53.570 --> 00:43:55.150the way in which I've made sense of107500:43:55.150 --> 00:43:59.890God, my vocation, who I am, my feelings,107600:44:00.010 --> 00:44:01.170my desires, my wants, my needs.107700:44:01.310 --> 00:44:04.430The whole thing is not what I thought107800:44:04.430 --> 00:44:04.970it was.107900:44:05.790 --> 00:44:10.130I remember people talk about when you have108000:44:10.130 --> 00:44:11.370a nightmare and you wake up and you108100:44:11.370 --> 00:44:12.670realize it was a nightmare and it didn't108200:44:12.670 --> 00:44:13.870happen and you feel that relief.108300:44:14.870 --> 00:44:16.050For me at the time, it felt like108400:44:16.050 --> 00:44:16.430the opposite.108500:44:17.130 --> 00:44:18.370It felt like my life was a dream108600:44:18.370 --> 00:44:19.790and I'd woken up and my life had108700:44:19.790 --> 00:44:20.650just become a nightmare.108800:44:23.890 --> 00:44:30.930It happened so violently, really.108900:44:31.470 --> 00:44:32.370I mean, it felt violent.109000:44:33.090 --> 00:44:34.890I was doing this self-reflection form that109100:44:34.890 --> 00:44:36.650you have to do with your training for109200:44:36.650 --> 00:44:41.030ordination and it asks hard questions, asks you109300:44:41.030 --> 00:44:43.910to look inside, asks you to reflect on109400:44:43.910 --> 00:44:45.730your strengths, weaknesses, areas for growth.109500:44:47.330 --> 00:44:51.970I just started crying that day and it109600:44:51.970 --> 00:44:53.130never really stopped.109700:44:54.890 --> 00:44:56.850And in all of that, it was a109800:44:56.850 --> 00:45:02.170sense of, well, how can God have allowed109900:45:02.170 --> 00:45:03.110all of this to happen?110000:45:03.110 --> 00:45:05.710I mean, I've lived in this sort of110100:45:05.710 --> 00:45:08.370happy, relatively blissful ignorance.110200:45:09.730 --> 00:45:15.430And actually, there is a lot of pain,110300:45:16.070 --> 00:45:19.950trauma, damage, conflict.110400:45:20.830 --> 00:45:25.210If you're talking about the article I think110500:45:25.210 --> 00:45:27.510you're talking about, I wrote in that, it110600:45:27.510 --> 00:45:31.270talked about being plunged in darkness, complete darkness,110700:45:33.110 --> 00:45:35.210and then being no light at the end110800:45:35.210 --> 00:45:35.630of the tunnel.110900:45:36.450 --> 00:45:38.690People would always talk about life at the111000:45:38.690 --> 00:45:39.770end of the tunnel or that sense of111100:45:39.770 --> 00:45:40.510hope or future.111200:45:41.110 --> 00:45:43.390At the time, it didn't feel like that.111300:45:43.550 --> 00:45:46.510I mean, my teenage years have been fairly111400:45:46.510 --> 00:45:50.810light in terms of teenage angst and that111500:45:50.810 --> 00:45:54.350time, I had a really, really strong desire111600:45:54.350 --> 00:45:57.290to self-harm at the age of 26,111700:45:57.370 --> 00:45:57.71027.111800:45:58.510 --> 00:45:59.930And I didn't know where that came from.111900:46:01.270 --> 00:46:04.410I couldn't make sense of what was happening112000:46:04.410 --> 00:46:07.590to me, what I was seeing when my112100:46:07.590 --> 00:46:13.830eyes were closed, the fear and anxiety that112200:46:13.830 --> 00:46:14.730I was experiencing.112300:46:15.750 --> 00:46:18.050I suddenly couldn't be around people for more112400:46:18.050 --> 00:46:20.710than about an hour before needing to kind112500:46:20.710 --> 00:46:22.250of retreat off to my apartment.112600:46:22.910 --> 00:46:25.490And so it was just this, how could112700:46:25.490 --> 00:46:26.690God let all of that happen?112800:46:30.590 --> 00:46:32.590And there I was in this dark place112900:46:32.590 --> 00:46:35.650and my old means of prayer and connection113000:46:35.650 --> 00:46:37.170with God didn't cut it.113100:46:38.650 --> 00:46:41.450And it was this sense of like, well,113200:46:41.450 --> 00:46:43.330God, if you say you love me, I'm113300:46:43.330 --> 00:46:47.590saying that's not true, but your love feels113400:46:47.590 --> 00:46:48.870like hate in this moment.113500:46:49.850 --> 00:46:51.770If this is love, I don't know if113600:46:51.770 --> 00:46:54.750I actually want it, because it feels like113700:46:54.750 --> 00:46:59.350you've cast me away from your presence.113800:47:03.020 --> 00:47:05.540I think what I came to see at113900:47:05.540 --> 00:47:07.900the end, not the end, not that it114000:47:07.900 --> 00:47:11.820ended, but at moments of light coming in,114100:47:13.060 --> 00:47:16.920as dawn kind of came through, was not114200:47:16.920 --> 00:47:18.300that actually God had cast me away from114300:47:18.300 --> 00:47:25.040his presence, but rather God had moved from114400:47:25.040 --> 00:47:30.000my sort of happy but denial-filled life114500:47:30.000 --> 00:47:33.460into the much more real areas of pain114600:47:33.460 --> 00:47:34.500and distress.114700:47:37.560 --> 00:47:41.340And as I went into it and felt114800:47:41.340 --> 00:47:45.020completely lost to a large degree in that114900:47:45.020 --> 00:47:47.540storm, came to find that actually, no, he's115000:47:47.540 --> 00:47:48.120out here too.115100:47:48.620 --> 00:47:51.520I was never alone, but when it is115200:47:51.520 --> 00:47:55.100that intense, you're not aware of what's going115300:47:55.100 --> 00:47:57.240on around you because it's survival.115400:47:58.440 --> 00:48:00.800Well, you obviously came through that.115500:48:02.100 --> 00:48:04.240Do you think it's a little naive for115600:48:04.240 --> 00:48:05.760us all to think that we're all going115700:48:05.760 --> 00:48:07.140to come through it, or some of us115800:48:07.140 --> 00:48:09.060get to the end with still that same115900:48:09.060 --> 00:48:10.340chaos and some of that?116000:48:12.140 --> 00:48:13.500Again, I'm asking you the question.116100:48:13.620 --> 00:48:14.920I have my own feelings about it.116200:48:14.940 --> 00:48:17.160I think it's a little naive to expect116300:48:17.160 --> 00:48:19.760that every conflict and every bit of chaos116400:48:19.760 --> 00:48:21.520is going to resolve, and we're going to116500:48:21.520 --> 00:48:22.200get to see it.116600:48:22.740 --> 00:48:24.660And I don't know, I'm not sure that's116700:48:24.660 --> 00:48:24.940true.116800:48:25.960 --> 00:48:27.120Yeah, there are lots of things in my116900:48:27.120 --> 00:48:30.680life that have seen light, but I remember117000:48:30.680 --> 00:48:34.000there was one specific conflict, a specific situation,117100:48:34.180 --> 00:48:35.980where I had somebody who'd been in such117200:48:35.980 --> 00:48:38.540scenarios before say, it'll take a year or117300:48:38.540 --> 00:48:40.560two, it'll get better.117400:48:41.680 --> 00:48:43.780And that never happened.117500:48:45.040 --> 00:48:48.340I remember someone saying about the U2 song,117600:48:48.380 --> 00:48:50.120I still haven't found what I'm looking for.117700:48:51.380 --> 00:48:55.260Well, modern evangelicals will go, well, yes, you117800:48:55.260 --> 00:48:55.520have.117900:48:55.800 --> 00:48:56.780We found Jesus.118000:48:57.380 --> 00:49:00.620Well, I mean, that's the start of a118100:49:00.620 --> 00:49:00.860journey.118200:49:01.020 --> 00:49:02.000That's not the end of a journey.118300:49:02.760 --> 00:49:03.240Exactly.118400:49:03.620 --> 00:49:06.180And I think what God in his grace118500:49:06.180 --> 00:49:11.920has shown me is where light and life118600:49:11.920 --> 00:49:14.060and peace and hope can come.118700:49:14.700 --> 00:49:18.160It is through facing things and holding on118800:49:18.160 --> 00:49:20.760and trusting and learning to let go and118900:49:20.760 --> 00:49:22.660surrendering and all the hard stuff that we119000:49:22.660 --> 00:49:23.560don't really want to do.119100:49:24.080 --> 00:49:27.720But then it's, you know, God always means119200:49:27.720 --> 00:49:28.920the cheese, right?119300:49:30.080 --> 00:49:31.840Never stays in the same place, and the119400:49:31.840 --> 00:49:33.820next time it's different.119500:49:35.300 --> 00:49:37.720But what we learned at that point is119600:49:37.720 --> 00:49:39.580not that, oh, it's going to all be119700:49:39.580 --> 00:49:41.220better, and there's a bow put on top119800:49:41.220 --> 00:49:41.800of it.119900:49:42.080 --> 00:49:44.960But rather, I know that there is one120000:49:44.960 --> 00:49:48.920who has faced death and come through the120100:49:48.920 --> 00:49:49.460other side.120200:49:49.660 --> 00:49:52.480And I know that I might not see120300:49:52.480 --> 00:49:54.760life in the way that I want to120400:49:54.760 --> 00:49:57.560see life in this life, but I am120500:49:57.560 --> 00:49:59.920learning more and more to trust that I120600:49:59.920 --> 00:50:00.700will in the next.120700:50:00.900 --> 00:50:02.460And I think that's one of the ways120800:50:02.460 --> 00:50:04.680we really misread the Bible, is that we120900:50:04.680 --> 00:50:09.000come to it expecting a band-aid or121000:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.520a sort of sugar-filled drink to kind121100:50:12.520 --> 00:50:15.360of send us back into the world feeling121200:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.080happy and joyous and free in this very121300:50:17.080 --> 00:50:17.960superficial way.121400:50:17.960 --> 00:50:20.840Whereas actually what the New Testament often says121500:50:20.840 --> 00:50:24.840is, you know, life is really hard, following121600:50:24.840 --> 00:50:26.600God is really hard, but how do I121700:50:26.600 --> 00:50:30.380hope because eventually, you know, the ultimate story121800:50:30.380 --> 00:50:32.140is that good will win over evil?121900:50:33.140 --> 00:50:35.280And there's so many stories and so many122000:50:35.280 --> 00:50:38.040characters in Scripture that did not see the122100:50:38.040 --> 00:50:40.180promised land, that's obviously the first one.122200:50:40.460 --> 00:50:41.700I mean, that's what the whole book of122300:50:41.700 --> 00:50:42.580Revelation is about.122400:50:43.020 --> 00:50:43.260Yeah.122500:50:43.260 --> 00:50:46.020The book of Revelation, you know, too many122600:50:46.020 --> 00:50:49.540people read it as this sort of prediction122700:50:49.540 --> 00:50:51.240for the future, but really it's a message122800:50:51.240 --> 00:50:54.360to people who are seeing other believers die122900:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.240because of their faith or go back to123000:50:57.240 --> 00:50:59.120worshipping old Gods in the ways of the123100:50:59.120 --> 00:51:01.600empire and not holding fast.123200:51:01.800 --> 00:51:05.360And so Revelation is like, here's a glimpse123300:51:05.360 --> 00:51:08.160into the great beyond of how it all123400:51:08.160 --> 00:51:12.000will, you know, turn out, which is evil123500:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.920will be defeated and there will be a123600:51:14.920 --> 00:51:15.820new heaven on earth.123700:51:16.200 --> 00:51:16.320Yeah.123800:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.360But that's not what lots of people want123900:51:20.360 --> 00:51:20.780to hear.124000:51:22.440 --> 00:51:24.900Do you find that the students that you're124100:51:24.900 --> 00:51:28.100addressing are hungry or some of them just124200:51:28.100 --> 00:51:29.540not sure what they want to do and124300:51:29.540 --> 00:51:33.040this is a rest stop on the way124400:51:33.040 --> 00:51:33.800to what they want to do?124500:51:33.800 --> 00:51:35.180Are there convictions?124600:51:35.500 --> 00:51:36.780Are they strong in their convictions?124700:51:37.360 --> 00:51:39.560Yeah, I mean, the large number of who124800:51:39.560 --> 00:51:41.600I teach are training for ordination.124900:51:41.720 --> 00:51:44.120So some are coming back from other careers125000:51:44.120 --> 00:51:45.540realizing they don't want to.125100:51:45.560 --> 00:51:46.220Yeah, yeah, yeah.125200:51:46.360 --> 00:51:48.080So there is, you know, with them, as125300:51:48.080 --> 00:51:51.920you'd expect, there's a degree of confidence and125400:51:51.920 --> 00:51:54.620certainty, but like, otherwise, why would you change125500:51:54.620 --> 00:51:55.860your life and go work for the church?125600:51:57.060 --> 00:51:58.180I'd like to shake it out of them125700:51:58.180 --> 00:52:01.640sometimes because I like to think I was125800:52:01.640 --> 00:52:02.020out of the church.125900:52:02.600 --> 00:52:05.360Well, I've always heard, I've heard from a126000:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.540lot of people that pastors would tell other126100:52:07.540 --> 00:52:10.260pastors, if you can do anything else, do126200:52:10.260 --> 00:52:10.480it.126300:52:11.980 --> 00:52:13.400Have you found good barbecue?126400:52:14.000 --> 00:52:14.260Yes.126500:52:14.660 --> 00:52:15.140Where?126600:52:15.680 --> 00:52:16.380In Obsted.126700:52:16.840 --> 00:52:17.320Give them applause.126800:52:17.840 --> 00:52:20.840There's a place called Burnout Barbecue that is126900:52:20.840 --> 00:52:23.380run by, I think, three guys who have127000:52:23.380 --> 00:52:24.340been on a big road trip in the127100:52:24.340 --> 00:52:26.280States and wanted to bring a good American127200:52:26.280 --> 00:52:27.860barbecue back and they have.127300:52:27.980 --> 00:52:28.660It's very good.127400:52:28.660 --> 00:52:30.920The only thing is their Texas plate has127500:52:30.920 --> 00:52:33.720pork on it, and as any good Texan127600:52:33.720 --> 00:52:35.500knows, barbecue is beef.127700:52:36.060 --> 00:52:36.340It's brisket.127800:52:37.100 --> 00:52:38.760But there is brisket available.127900:52:38.920 --> 00:52:40.980It's just not called Texas barbecue.128000:52:41.880 --> 00:52:42.700Favorite royal?128100:52:44.220 --> 00:52:44.900The Corgis.128200:52:45.720 --> 00:52:46.260The Corgis?128300:52:46.920 --> 00:52:48.520The Queen's dogs?128400:52:48.960 --> 00:52:49.260Yeah.128500:52:49.900 --> 00:52:52.440Did they stay on or did they travel128600:52:52.440 --> 00:52:53.580into eternity with her?128700:52:54.780 --> 00:52:58.160No, somebody took them, but Corgis are much128800:52:58.160 --> 00:52:58.520more interesting.128900:52:58.520 --> 00:53:00.640Than any of the royals.129000:53:00.980 --> 00:53:01.620You're a dog lover.129100:53:02.000 --> 00:53:02.760Yeah, you're a dog lover.129200:53:03.240 --> 00:53:05.920Well, it's equal measures love of dogs and129300:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.040disdain for the monarchy, really.129400:53:10.940 --> 00:53:11.540Okay.129500:53:14.180 --> 00:53:16.220Well, I just want to tell you, I129600:53:16.220 --> 00:53:17.660missed having you guys here.129700:53:19.960 --> 00:53:23.420I'm so thankful that you're there teaching young129800:53:23.420 --> 00:53:27.240minds and some more adult minds full of129900:53:27.240 --> 00:53:30.240mush the truth of the Scripture, because I130000:53:30.240 --> 00:53:33.200don't think you can ever discount learning and130100:53:33.200 --> 00:53:35.200wisdom, and we use so little of this130200:53:35.200 --> 00:53:36.240to get there.130300:53:36.580 --> 00:53:39.020And whatever is there, we can use to130400:53:39.020 --> 00:53:42.940further people's sometimes innocent understanding of who God130500:53:42.940 --> 00:53:44.020is and who He wants to be to130600:53:44.020 --> 00:53:44.240them.130700:53:45.040 --> 00:53:46.160So, thank you.130800:53:46.900 --> 00:53:47.720Good to talk to you.130900:53:48.200 --> 00:53:48.820My pleasure, Wayne.131000:53:49.040 --> 00:53:50.260Very nice to talk to you, too.131100:53:51.720 --> 00:53:54.460Thanks for listening to The Wayne Watson Podcast,131200:53:54.460 --> 00:53:57.740where stories of faith, purpose, and everyday life131300:53:57.740 --> 00:54:00.780meet and continue to uplift hearts around the131400:54:00.780 --> 00:54:01.180world.131500:54:01.400 --> 00:54:03.220Be sure to follow, leave us a review,131600:54:03.400 --> 00:54:05.300and share this episode with a friend.131700:54:05.500 --> 00:54:08.160To learn more about Wayne's music, ministry, and131800:54:08.160 --> 00:54:11.320upcoming projects, visit Waynewatson.com.131900:54:11.600 --> 00:54:13.960Every journey of faith begins with a story,132000:54:14.180 --> 00:54:16.400and every heart finds its rhythm in the132100:54:16.400 --> 00:54:16.680Lord.132200:54:17.060 --> 00:54:19.680Until next time, go well, and may you132300:54:19.680 --> 00:54:22.680keep walking in step with His song flowing132400:54:22.680 --> 00:54:23.480through you.