S8E102: Qiana Mickie / NYC Mayor's Office of Urban Agriculture - The Heartbeat of the City: A Tale of Urban Agriculture in NYC

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or click the link in the show notes. What I would say, like, my work

really is kind of rooted in is how can I

maximize my time, strengthen my voice, and

collaborate and build collective power with others to strengthen

their voice and their work. So I think initially

it started as community advocacy. I think I kind of always

like lean into it, but I think more and more of my work, it really

was about We understand that there

are genuine structural inequities.

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And in this fantastic episode, We get to bond

over our love for New York City and what it was like growing up there.

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the importance of connecting communities to resources, building feasible solutions for

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listen to and apply as well. We also talk about the importance of innovating

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So Kiana Mickey, director at New York City Mayor's Office

of Urban Agriculture, thank you so much for joining me on the Vertical Farming Podcast.

Oh, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. So we were chatting a little

bit before we got started about our love for— mutual love for New York City.

Most of the listeners will know that I grew up in Yonkers, New York. I

actually was born in El Salvador, so got the— so I did get to

enjoy a lot of the different pockets of Latino culture in the city as well.

Oh, great. Yeah, I think after college went in and lived at Upper East Side,

East Village, Lower East Side, Greenpoint. So covered a

couple of different boroughs. I'm wondering what life was like for you growing up in

New York. Oh, it's funny. I didn't pop around as much as

you did, but a fun fact that most folks are not familiar

with is I grew up— sorry, I was born in Richmond, Virginia,

but I grew up here. My mom was a New Yorker and we moved.

I've— since 2 and a half, I've been here. So I think I qualify as

a New Yorker. Yeah, I think you do too. And I

actually grew up in my mom's like teenage home with

my grandparents. So while my, you know, in the Bronx, so I'm

from the East Bronx, but I have to rep my neighborhood, which is actually

Castle Hill. Okay. Okay. So I grew up with a love for

music, house music specifically, and DJing. I've still got my

turntables and my Technics 1200s. And so I would make periodic trips into

the Bronx to get some gear or to just look through like the latest

vinyl shops. And so, you know, so many

different parts of New York. And I think what a lot of people who think

of New York City think is just like, they think of just Manhattan and they

forget about like the beauty that is like all the different boroughs,

you know, Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and everyone has got its own

flavor. Yes, I was just about to say that. And it's got so many different

cultures. I think one of the pockets where they speak the most languages, I think,

was somewhere in Queens or something. Yeah, in terms of the variety.

And as you were growing up, did you begin to experience

that? Or when did you become aware of just like the cornucopia of just like

cultural experiences that New York City affords? Yeah,

it's a great question. Honestly, I grew up in the Bronx

and went to schools in the Bronx. However, my mom's

friends and connections and a big part of my childhood on my

weekends were actually on the Lower East Side. Oh, nice. So, you know,

being like a '70s baby, '80s kid growing

up where folks, some folks felt like they didn't go to the Lower East Side

or East Village or St. Mark's Place. Yeah. And it was very much like a

second home base for me. So to me, it was like, it gave

me the opportunity to really be exposed to

different aspects of like culture, 'cause you still had like communities that

were Eastern European and like very old school, but

you continue to have this influx of like artists or just folks

just like making by, but bringing their cultures from different

parts of the globe, different parts, or even like other cities.

So they became New Yorkers because they infused their

culture in. And I think growing up at that time and being able to

have that experience of seeing, you know,

music emerge in the mixing of

cultures, the vibe that people would come with in terms of like what they

brought to the table in terms of food, what they brought to the table in

terms of music, and even bringing some of their

reflections and traumas. It really kind of helped, I think, inform

what was that unique vibrancy of New York City. And I think for me,

it kind of, and especially being able to see that early on, whether

it was the good, hard, beautiful, and the bad, it was like I

always kind of felt like New York was a place for everybody.

But you Definitely had to be open to being

open. You know, like, how do you be aware on what you're able to

bring? And are you being like intentional about what you're bringing to

community? And so being able to kind of see the difference

between what I was seeing in like Catholic school in the Bronx and then

what I was seeing, like people living, you know, in my

neighborhood in the Bronx, but also downtown, it really kind of gave me the

chance to learn and see people

first and like learn first before like

assuming. Yeah, I definitely like that. I went to an all-boys Catholic high school in

White Plains, so I can definitely— Should we talk about

this? Which one? Because I went to St. Catherine's. I went to Archbishop Stepinac in

White Plains. Yeah. So I'm 52. So I think we might have some overlap in

terms of lived experience. And I remember the

excitement of like the birth of hip hop and those like buying like my

first Run-DMC record and just being like, these sounds that you would just have never

heard before. And so Especially, I had a close

proximity to it, like I said, because of my passion for DJing. And

so it's rare that people get to experience

the birth of a wave of

music or an experience. And so I really feel

honored that I was able to live through that because it's

like you said, being in New York, and I didn't get to New York as

much in the '80s, maybe in the late '80s, maybe with a fake ID, but

we're not going to talk about that. We're not going to go there. But I

would go to after-hours places like Save the Robots in the East Village.

And so like for people, New York City folks know about that. It's like

you would leave the bar at like 2 or 3 AM and they'd be like,

you wanna go to an after-hours place? And I'm like, right where? And then just

go some East Village place and down some shady set of stairs.

And then you wake up and then you leave and it's like daylight. And then

we'd head back up to the, up Upper Manhattan and get some like Dominican

food up in uptown. Exactly. So there's just all these

unique New York City experiences. Do you have any favorites in terms of

food? Oh yeah. Well, it's so funny, like when you

were mentioning that, it made me think of one of my earliest musical—

both my parents were really into music, but one of my first personal music

experiences was seeing Musical Youth

at the Roxy. Oh man, that's cool. And paid for my ticket because I sold

with my friends, we sold like trinkets of our parents on like the

street and then like We were so cute, people like gave us money, so we

bought our own tickets. So it's like, you know, but

exactly like what you said, it's like, to me, there's so much weaving

between our music and our food and urban

agriculture. So even years when I was still a little

kid, I didn't really think of it, but I think

what I noticed is I connect a lot of my music experiences

with food experiences. So when I think about the Lower East Side, I

think about Lechesko's and, you know, diners and,

you know, like— Yeah. all those like, you know, grandmas like cooking or like

your neighbor, you know, giving you like days and, you know.

Yeah. We're doing like pierogies. Pierogies, yeah. You know,

it was like, you know, these pockets of our culture

and these like moments in our time where you were able to like have

music. You also oftentimes broke bread before or after.

And so, you know, you kind of start thinking about neighborhoods and like the

smells. And I think that's something that kind of always kind of stays with

me is like, you know, thinking about certain neighborhoods and what we

all kind of bring. It's interesting too, especially

nowadays, like I think about how we intersect like

music with our food and urban agriculture, like activities

and work. I know a DJ who's actually a farmer. Oh yeah,

that's cool. Yeah, Sunny Chiba, you know, based out in the Bronx.

So it's never too far from my heart,

but I realize how deep those ties are and how much I

want to bring that to, you know, continue to bring that to New York City,

but also bring to folks. But in terms of like, you know, food

spots, you know, like you definitely, I

think of places like in the Bronx, like La Morada and

Tsu Ga, you know, where you have the blending of like different, like Asian

and Chinese. Chino Latino. Chino Latino, right? I was going

to say that, the Chino Latino, you know, or even like yesterday

I went to the lechonera on in East Harlem just because I

was like, you know, excited and craving that, you know. So

it's like, it's nice to remember what those flavors and tastes were when

I was a kid, when you didn't know any better and you were eating. Like,

my mom used to have us eat sushi on her lunch break. She was a

health inspector, so she knew all the good restaurants. Oh, cool. She was a city

health inspector. Okay. So it was interesting to,

you know, for her to kind of share that. And then You know, you're hungry,

you don't know what you're eating, but then you start to realize as you got

older, like, oh, these are all the foods of my friends and my family.

You know, these are like, you know, and comrades. And so when you get older

now, being able to bring that back to folks, I think I didn't

realize that until I do this work more, but I realized like that had

like a real like standing. But yeah, there's some great Thai food in

Queens. I recently found out. Greek food too in Astoria, right?

Oh yeah. So good. That's so good. I can't think of a

better person to show you around and pick the best spots in town

than a city health inspector. I know, right?

I know. It's so funny how, like, life brings you back to certain things.

But yeah. And so when you think about growing

up there, your lived experience, you start to, you know, you go into school

and you start to figure out what you want to study, where you envision working

coming out of college. Take us a little back in time. What was your

mindset at and what were you trying to achieve or

accomplish coming out of school and what were you looking forward to?

Yeah. So folks tend to think like this

urban ag work is something I probably went to school for. I mean, I think

there are folks now, like there are classes and

curricula and programs that are focused on

food planning, food systems, urban agriculture even.

But in the 12, 13 years ago when I started, started in this work,

none of that really existed. Or when it did, it was really more

of a farm-to-table movement that was still very elitist and very

white-led and white-driven and very academic. So it was like folks that

maybe gardened themselves or knew farmers because they had

second homes and they knew the importance of food and they had some

relationships, but they weren't really connected in the early

times to folks on the ground who had been doing

similar Grassroots work, similar

guerrilla gardening here in the 5 boroughs. So I would say for

me, I always, so one, I

didn't really know urban agriculture and food would be my journey,

even though my very first job was with the city of

the Council of the Environment. And I was pruning and pulling

out weeds. My first job. Really early on. Getting my hands

in the dirt. I had no idea, never connected it. So, you

know, initially I always thought I was going to work in,

or I wanted to work in like television or

entertainment marketing, even so film, television, or

music. But what I realized over time, especially when I didn't

get those opportunities, was what I really appreciated was not just because I

have a love of like pop culture and music and art, but

I appreciated the creative process that

artists bring. And I also at the same time realized

more and more that I always volunteered no matter what school I went

to. So as elementary, high school, college, I always found a way to

volunteer and give back to my community that I was

at. So I went to school in Virginia. I used to like work with preschool

students, but what it started to really make me realize, like shortly

after school was that yes, I had this passion

around entertainment, but what really drove me was

connecting the dots and how do people explore their creative

process, whatever that creative process might be.

And I think being someone who I

was a weaver as a, and that was how I tapped into my magic

and leadership was helping folks connect to what they knew and

did well that often didn't have a voice or didn't feel

like they had the access to assets and resources. So what I would do

is I realized a lot of my volunteering was about trying to

make those connections and trying to create more

bridges to assets and resources to most impacted folks.

And while you can do that in a creative process like entertainment, I

started to find out more and more about the food and ag space, and I

realized like that was something that I could also do as well in that area.

And so I know you spent some time at several organizations,

and then the most recent one before your current role was at Just Food.

Without getting into too many of the specifics and

just Reading off of the resume, what are some of the highlights of some of

those experiences and how do you think they prepared you for your current role?

Oh yeah, I think it very much did. You know, like early on

in my urban ag and food career, I started as a community advocate. I

just was somebody who had a thirst for learning and a

passion for action. And I think, again, because

I started to see as I got older and came back from college,

I also was a single mom, I started to really see the

world in a different way. I started to see who had privilege and access to

healthy food, different parts of the neighborhood. I think this was also a time

in New York where the economic disparity started to

get really obvious. So I

just started to think about what are things that I could do to

make a difference. So in terms of my resume, I

think ultimately what I found was I've always been

inspired by communities, in particular communities that are

most most impacted. And what I started to realize early in my

food and ag journey was how many folks

felt like they, including myself, didn't really

understand the food and farm policy that was out there. And what

I would say, like, my work really is kind of rooted in

is how can I maximize my time,

strengthen my voice, and collaborate and build collective

power with others to strengthen their voice and their work.

So I think initially it started as community advocacy.

And I think I kind of always like lean into it, but I think more

and more of my work, it really was about, we understand that

there are genuine structural inequities, and

even though we live with it, we oftentimes don't know how to

dismantle them. And what I started to find in the work

of urban ag and food was it maybe wasn't my strength to

be a grower. It maybe wasn't my strength to be a chef.

But what I could do is, could I

support folks in tapping in what their strengths are so

they could be more aware, more engaged, more involved?

And how do we bring assets to that? So, you know, I

think for a lot of reasons, like my charm, or, you know, got me

through certain conversations or being able to make what felt

like a Farm Bill priority be more, to be more

accessible to the average person. Mm-hmm. And telling my personal story, I

realized folks connected to that. And then I realized like

there's a way to bring in folks where they're still doing the great work that

they want to do. And what I could do is kind of help build those

bridges, whether that's building programming, you know, writing grants,

amplifying or creating space. I mean, the reality is,

you know, as much as I've had some disparities in my

life, there are also certain privileges that I have held.

And, you know, something that my mom also really taught me, and I think I've

learned this Growing up early on is you can always lean into

what's comfortable for you, or you can use that to leverage where

other folks aren't able to show up. And how do you say,

you know, when you say you want to be a changemaker or you say you

want to make a difference, how do you do that for yourself, but

bring in other folks? How do you learn from, you

know, ancestors, or how do you learn from folks that have been doing it before?

But what are you going to bring in that's going to move the needle that

much forward. And I think for me, it was always rooted in

impact. And I realized whether it was food or urban ag

or gardening, what I realized was we had more folks than not

being a part of the impact or not being a part of

solutions. And that was where I could bring my creativity,

my thought, my capacity. Where do you think this ability

for you to empathize with

folks that may not have had the opportunity You've had or

communities that are underserved. You know, you mentioned this idea of volunteering a

lot and also, you know, this energy of being a changemaker.

If you look back into your family life or your career life or either other

mentors, where do you think like that was developed and nurtured and grew in

you? Yeah, I think it's really a mix. I think it's a

mix of seeing, you know, either going through

my lived experiences and what I found

myself You know, I grew up in the Bronx. We weren't

wealthy, but we weren't completely food insecure. But it

wasn't like I didn't have family that were. And I think,

you know, that kind of helped. Again, I think having those early

years being in neighborhoods, again, following my

mom on her jobs, going from borough to borough, or, you know,

when she was hanging out, I got a chance to really see maybe

earlier than most folks That different people were struggling and

thriving in different ways, whether that was through how

they worked, whether that was through building community power,

whether that was organizing, or whether it was just

building family. So I think my family, I think my

loved ones kind of helped influence that. But I think also having a

lens to this unique city of New York and seeing when it

worked and when it didn't. And I think being able to not

be hidden from that. I think my mom was very

intentional about

certain things for me to see. Like, I think she wanted me to see

certain neighborhoods. She would take me to certain neighborhoods to see what was

great about those neighborhoods and also what was a hardship. So like, I

remember really distinctly there was a window of time, you know, you're in

New York, it's very easy to drive through Yeah. From the

Bronx downtown through Harlem, right? You can

bypass it completely on our highways, or you can take the local

streets and you don't stop. And, you know, in the '80s, you know, say a

neighborhood like Harlem was going through it. You know,

you were seeing food insecurity, you were seeing economic displacement,

you were seeing, you know, drug impacts, you know, drug use and

just the impact that drugs brings to a neighborhood. And that was

something she did not want me to be ignorant to. You know,

and there were times when I would see it and we would go, or she

would say like, look at what you're seeing. This is where, not only where I

don't want to see you at, but this is what can be different.

And so same, you know, so then if I go back to my neighborhood,

if I go back to school, I know those folks aren't seeing the same things.

Yeah. They don't even talk about the same things. So,

you know, I feel like it's kind of a mix. I think with my work,

I've been also afforded the opportunity me to learn the history,

the struggle, and the successes of

urban ag leaders, land stewards who were in those same

neighborhoods that people were saying, drive on the Ruckner and

over, drive through, bypass, don't look,

don't stop. Those same neighborhoods at the same time had

folks that were growing, folks that couldn't leave those

neighborhoods or didn't want to And were in fact growing,

building ways to like have food, building ways to build community,

even when the systems were broken for them. And

so I think growing up and being exposed to

it in a realistic way, but at the same time as a way to

see what else is out there, I think kind of helped inform for

me that there are solutions and there are

differences. So it was like, I think to me, it kind of helped

establish a baseline of disparity. It helped me see

things more as a spectrum than as like siloed.

And I think when it comes to like food in at work and especially

even now, like I think it also helps me understand that there's a

lot of value between being, you know, like I'm still a pragmatic

person. Yeah. I still like to see a budget cuz I want people to thrive,

you know? So I think what it brings for me is like, how can I

bring the visionary aspect of things or the

history or the disparities, but how do we actually build feasible solutions

that are relevant for multiple models, multiple communities, multiple

stakeholders. I feel like that's how it kind of shows up on my work

now is like when, how to be strategic about beating

which drum and when, but really who should be informing it.

And in a way that's not performative or tokenizing, but

also it should be an opportunity for folks to still get what they

need, whether that's economic Whether that's housing, whether that's just

respite. And I think, you know, the work that we do here with food and

ag really kind of speaks to that. And I'm hoping I can create more of

that in the city. So many good things there. And the only thing I'm worried

about is how much time we have, cuz I feel like I'm just going deep,

deep dive on all these topics and we can definitely pick it up in person.

Call me in. No, that's okay. Cuz I'm excited cuz we're gonna meet in person

cuz I'm gonna be at Indoor AgTech NYC as well. We can pick up some

of that conversation, but I just want to take a pause to just

congratulate and give kudos and blessings to the people that you mentioned

that really held it down for so many years, if not decades, in

those environments, in those conditions, who were probably

like, you know, doing it with the toughest of odds,

you know, with zero budget. But there was something about them that felt the

need to like create these urban gardens. Yes. And I imagine

some of them are probably considered pioneers in the urban ag space in terms of

being able to be that bridge to now, these moments now where there are

more eyes, there are more resources. But God bless them

for being able to hold that line for all this time. So I think

they've done a lot of the heavy lifting, and so they should be congratulated for

that. Yeah, no, thank you. Yeah, I will hone it

in. The one thing I would say that I think it's important is when we

talk about urban agriculture and we talk about healthy food

access in New York City, we need to remember the folks that were

the vanguards of doing that work out of

necessity, out of a choice to want to heal their

community, out of a choice to want their community to thrive,

and not just for their own families, but for other folks. And I'm hoping

that the work that we do here is in honor of

that, but it also helps inform how do we create

initiatives that help minimize climate crisis, that help minimize

food shortages. But again, it's really

resiliency in the neighborhood for the folks that live there. Yeah.

One thing I found interesting is you mentioned farm bills, and we always

hear about those things, and I've heard about them growing up, and— Yes. Immediately

think of like a farm in Nebraska. Yes. And I don't know to what

extent And maybe you can shed a little bit of light. We don't have to

go too deep, but just like when people think and when those are written and

the people that write them and who they, the majority of the people who benefit

from them. I don't know that a lot of people think about urban

environments as it relates to things like the Farm Bill. So I'm wondering if there's

a little bit of light you could shine on that. Oh yeah. I mean, I

think we're in this unique window of time where

we have like the Farm Bill policy and oftentimes folks don't see, we're

Farm Bill season, right? They're in negotiations. I think folks

oftentimes don't think of urban agriculture as spaces that are

based in our food, like we get food out versus

what we can grow here. And I think this is a great time to kind

of touch on it just in terms of agriculture should

really be seen as agriculture, like the growing and

production of healthy soils, healthy

food opportunities, whether rural or urban.

But I think in terms of policy, we need to use this

as a window for folks to really see that also impacts where we live.

Luckily, with our urban agriculture, there recently was a

program in the last 2 farm bills that really kind of lifted

the importance of urban ag in particular. So while, you know,

farm bill policy is, you're right, mainly folks think about, you

know, rural farmers, we have to remember we have urban

growing and have had urban growing. So I'm really excited to see

the innovations that will continue to be supported through the Urban Ag

Innovation Program. One thing real quick, something that

the office has done to kind of identify ways that folks, or

support how urban ag growers

could connect to Farm Bill policy in a more realistic

way that is around urban ag, is we helped

inform a market bill. Congressman Espaillat

introduced The Growings Opportunity Innovative Farming Market

Bill, which is really great because what it does is say this urban

ag is important and folks that are doing urban ag,

in particular socially disadvantaged farmers and producers,

should have access to Farm Bill funding as well. So

it's really to kind of help find a way to spur the

economic activity, the climate resiliency models that are unique

to urban ag. That's important to know that progress is being made on that

front. And when we wrap up, I'll probably get some of these links so

I could put them in the show notes if people want to learn more about

them. So I'm curious in terms of your own journey, in terms of the

position you're at now, talk a little bit about how that opportunity opened up and

the conversations you had that led to your current position. What

can I share? Yes. I have a long history in working on

food, agriculture, and equity. And I think as

there had been an increased interest and demand for an

office in New York City to really support the breadth of urban

agriculture, I think it became a priority of

council members and even, you know, borough presidents. You

know, one in particular really took the lead was Borough President

Adams, which is now our mayor, as well as former city council member

Rafael Espinal. You know, so I think what folks

from advocates, from the community side, as well as business interests realized

is that maybe we needed an office that could really support

and identify and speak up on the interests of urban

agriculture. So I think how my, you know,

real quick, how those intersected was, I think what folks heard was,

yes, we need an office that's going to prioritize this as a need,

how to really advance equity in urban agriculture

in New York City. And I think Folks wanted somebody who

had an experience in the breadth of urban agriculture, who was

willing to work on the inside within an administration, but not

forget the stakeholders on the outside to make that, those

ideas a reality. Yeah, I was there last year for

Indirect Tech and the opening keynote was by Mayor Adams. So it was

nice to see even at that level, the support

for what's happening, obviously for urban ag, what's Yes. You know,

the topic of this show, vertical farming. Yes. And I'm wondering if how

those conversations have been with Mayor Adams. It's, I would assume he's still like a

staunch advocate of everything that's happening in the space. Oh

yes. You know, Mayor Adams is a clear advocate

for healthy food access, local food

procurement, especially hyperlocal and within our region,

and that folks have that food on their plate. and also are able to make

the choices around healthy food that they want. And I think also he

continues to be an advocate on supporting the breadth of urban

agriculture in our city. One thing I think folks often

tend to forget that I think is important, especially, you know, in this

summit, is how do those all intersect? How do we

in New York City be a leader around climate

resiliency, equity, food access,

economic activity that doesn't leave folks behind. So

I think these are definitely the priorities that he has, and

I'm excited to kind of talk to folks about their different approaches to it.

So that's a beautiful segue into the topic of your talk, which we're going to

see at the end of this month. I believe you're talking about the topic of

food security. So can you talk a little bit about how you were connected with

the organization and a little preview of what's to come? Oh,

sure. So I'm going to be on the panel on

the how to solve the food security puzzle. And

what I'm hoping to talk about is one, that urban

ag is vibrant in New York City in multiple diverse

models. Also how the city is supportive of

controlled environment growing and innovation, and also

learning about the impact of CEA in New York City so far.

The other thing that we're going to talk about, and I'd really love to hear

other folks on the panel as well, is And we're in the lens

of defining food security. How do we do that in our

prospective work? And how does the CEA

sector kind of innovate through these

volatile times around funding to genuinely connect

to bringing culturally appropriate and relevant food

to a city like New York? I think there's a lot of ways that the

city can support, so I'm definitely going to come with my ears open.

But I'm happy to share what some of the new and interesting

things we've been doing in the Mayor's Office of Urban Agriculture. Well, I'm

excited for that panel. That's going to be really, a really good one. Thank you.

Your topic is covering food security, but I also want to delve a little bit

into this idea of food justice because I think it's a term not many people

have heard much about, and I feel like they go hand in hand with food

security. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what that means

for you. No, a great question. You know, oftentimes people

talk about food security, and one of the main goals of

the food security movement is to end hunger. So what I'm

hoping we get into on the panel is how can the

sector of agtech address meeting this goal of

ending hunger? But when we talk about food security, it doesn't necessarily

equate to food justice, and food justice Food justice is

really about the right to grow, sell,

harvest food that community wants

and decides on. So what I'm curious to also hear is

when we talk about food justice, how are we increasing

opportunities for communities, in particular

impacted communities, to be a part of the solution

of addressing food scarcity in their

communities? Are they able to be business owners in these

models? Are they able to not just grow and not just grow

for profit, but can they grow to feed like what is a really

hard approach, which is nutritional food, but

also, you know, food that will help us

minimize like the hunger gap? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I got to

see this firsthand, obviously in my time in New York City, but recently at Indoor

AgCon, And thank the team at Green Side Up took us to downtown Las Vegas,

the not glamorous part, you know, and— Oh, interesting. But you got to see

like food deserts and you got to, we got to visit a couple, it was

2 buses and we went from a, to a couple of like these in-city

grocery markets that anyone who's lived in the city is very familiar with, like

purple sun-kissed in the front row and then like produce sections that are all,

you know, pretty much empty. And so thankfully it's been nice to see them

some new innovations happening there with a previous guest, a company called

Harvest. They've actually installed 5 container farms inside the space. They're

producing— they're going to start producing. So it's great, this idea of food deserts. And

it's, you know, it's almost like out of sight, out of mind sometimes. If you're

not aware, you take it for granted that you can walk into a Whole Foods

and you have all this fresh produce. And that's not the case for everyone.

And I'm glad to see initiatives like this happening to just increase awareness to

what's happening in all these communities. I think it's really important. Yes. No,

totally. You know, oftentimes folks in urban ag and food spaces,

you know, we talk about the distance between supermarkets or

access models, but what is missed often in the

definition of food deserts is the access to hyper-local grown

food and who's growing that food. So, you know, I

think what really comes up for me and part of what I'm really

interested in, you know, innovating here in the city is how Do we continue

to support hyper-local grown production

of healthy food? And what are the different models that can do that right

in our neighborhoods? So we're minimizing maybe historical

redlining or disconnects between

where folks were able to start a business, like what's relevant to us now.

And I think that's also something the city is looking at and other

agencies too, is how do we really

support support hyperlocal production, hyperlocal

distribution in a way that, you know, we can also create

opportunities for indoor because there's a lot of great, you know,

opportunities that could still be climate resilient, but still meet a food

security need or, you know, dismantling food

insecurity. So we're, you know, minimizing those

disconnects, but we're doing it in a way that is relevant for the community.

Very important topic. And I'm again looking forward to that discussion. It's hopefully

going to be a lively one. I know. I hope so.

I'm curious what your experience has been with specifically indoor

farming, controlled environment agriculture, because obviously, you know, that's something—

rooftop gardens that have been started in Brooklyn as well that I'm familiar with. And

I'm curious what your experience has been as you've begun to become more

aware of the opportunities that exist for year-round growing.

Yes. You know, one of the things that's going to always be important in

addressing with either achieving food justice or food security

is year-round production of healthy food. So I

continue to try to learn from and

identify partners that are doing that well in New York City, whether

it's at a really big scale like Gotham Greens at

retail, or again, are these opportunities

for BIPOC folks or low-income

folks to get able to be in the model, like growing

mushrooms and growing mushrooms for community consumption, growing

mushrooms for retail. So I would say like, I

continue to kind of be informed by the gamut, but also trying to

learn like, what are their unique needs as partners, as

models, as folks that might be new to business, as folks that are proven

businesses? What can our city assets do to really advance

urban agriculture in those ways? Yeah. these models

exist for smaller entrepreneurs who

are just getting into this idea of farming, but it's not

how we all would think about, like, if you're going to be a farmer, you

got to be on a farm. And now, because of what you can do and

even the yields you can produce, you know, you can literally have a container farm

that could supply, you know, a lot of locations. Yes. And I think having help,

especially with the business models and the offtake agreements

and being sure that people can not only grow, which, you know, a lot of

these companies can help them with, but you have the crop now, you have

someone that's willing to buy it, you know, is there a need for that? And

helping them make those decisions, because a lot of times first-time business owners

struggle with these, and that's, you know, where you see a lot of the failures

if they don't have that proper planning and that proper support. Oh,

totally. You know, it's interesting you bring up 2 things that are really big

initiatives in the Office of Urban Ag is One,

identifying what are the supportive resources,

trainings, materials in particular around food and urban ag that we

could provide to New York businesses, in particular small

businesses and folks that are even MWB

eligible. How do we get folks that typically don't see themselves as

business owners to generally connect and get

to the point where they're able to do that at a viable I

think the other thing that you're touching on is

the need to see different models and entry

points in order to have that business. So I know

for me, one of the things I'm continuing to

learn is we oftentimes think about rooftop farms

in these really big ways, and folks are still really interested in

what they could do in their average New York apartment. You know, rooftop, you know,

whether it's their windowsill or whether it's like their building. So

I also want to create just more materials and awareness so

folks feel clear on what we do know about

rooftop gardening is just one example, you know, from folks that have done it

really well and have longstanding practices. Yeah. But how can that

be lessons, best practices, or lessons learned that we can then share with folks

that might have a slightly smaller rooftop and how to make it

viable. But again, you know, it's great to have,

you know, sweat equity-based community at work in any community,

but the reality is folks still need economic

opportunities. So how do we support that? Yeah, and I

think anything you can do to have someone have this feeling of being

self-sustainable, I think, is really powerful. And it's challenging in the city.

I've had a taste of it just Just being out here, I'm now in Minnesota

and we have a well, so we have access to fresh water. But it's these

things that people who grew up here probably take for granted and people who live

in the city— I was in New York City for Hurricane Sandy. And for the

listener, we lost power for a couple of days

and even power for a week and then running water, I think, for a day

or two. And there's nothing that shocks you into

the importance of having access to water and food— Yes. that.

And so I think it was in the same way COVID, right? And oh yes,

and just— and so anything that gives people this

sovereignty and agency over their choices, or at least to

have some backup plan if they want, you know, it's not going to be anything

that's going to be fully sustainable for weeks, but I think all these little

initiatives help people feel a bit more secure about the relationship to

food. I totally agree. And it's interesting that you bring up sovereignty

too, because I think that's Like, again, like, as I kind of see

it as a spectrum. So if we are, you know, establishing a way

to address food security on the road to creating food

justice, where we're creating more opportunities for more folks, how do

we now actually continue to try to strive for sovereignty

where there's, you know, as much opportunity and especially

the lens of like climate crisis, you know, you really can't talk about

urban agriculture, and we really can't talk about food production

without that lens mitigating climate crisis, but also how do

we recover? And I think that was also something we saw when we

hit food shortages or when we hit like power shortages,

how critical our resources like electricity, how

critical our food chains are. And the closer we are to our food,

the closer we are to conserving or saving or

utilizing energy well. It will help us not just

survive, but thrive. But if we're not thinking about climate

crises with agtech and urban ag, then we're

really missing the way to make any of this viable and

sustainable. So I'm looking forward to having those conversations at

the summit too. You may have people not letting you leave the conference that

are going to have some— they're going to want a few minutes of your

time. That's fine. I'm here for the people. This

is a question I like to ask, and it probably changes day by day, but

what's a tough question you've had to ask yourself lately? Okay, that's a

good question. One of the hardest questions I

continue to ask myself is, am I

continuing to remain grounded while being visionary

about the work that I'm doing to advance urban agriculture and

equity so it impacts

That's a good thing to keep in mind. I'm sure, hopefully it doesn't keep you

up at night, but it's a good— that's a lot related to that question. So

I just want to thank you for your time. And as we get close to

wrapping up, I'm really excited that this was able to get scheduled and it

was nice to connect with a fellow New Yorker. I'll consider myself a New Yorker

forever, so that's not going to change. Yes. And so given that we're at the

end of this conversation, I audience, just want to say, we talk to a lot

of CEOs and founders of vertical farming companies from around the world now. There's a

lot of— you mentioned Gotham Greens, and thankfully I was honored to have Viraj on

the show as well. Oh, great. But that audience is some of the folks who

listen. So what I've been doing is leaving a little bit of room at the

end of these conversations as a platform for you. Is there a message

when you think about the growing agtech industry, vertical farming,

and maybe as it relates to urban environments, but is there a message or anything

you'd like to say to those folks? I would say

one of the things that I continue to look forward to and look to

the agtech community is to continue to find ways

to be innovative in not just production, but

building intrinsic value to the work. And how do they continue

to bring food, healthy models, economic

opportunities to our diverse communities of New York

City? So I'm always keeping my eye out on what

is being innovative in their landscape, but also

how do they bring that back to the city? That's something that folks are going

to be happy to hear. So thanks for including that. So again,

thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're a

very busy person and you've got a lot on your plate, pun intended.

I look forward to meeting you in person and

attending that session. Where's the best Is there a best place for folks to connect

with you outside of the conference? Oh yes, I always

encourage folks to find me on the office

official social media. We are

@NYCUrbanAg. We're on Facebook,

Instagram, and Twitter. Okay, thank you so much again for your time. I really appreciate

it. No, thank you, Harry. Appreciate it. Special thanks to Kiana for

coming on the show. I know she's been super busy with all the

work she's doing for New York City and prepping for this conference and

everything else that's on her plate. So I really appreciate her taking time out of

her busy schedule to join here and for sharing her story.

Very inspiring story. Thank you, Kiana. As always, full show notes available at

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. Special thanks to our Season 8 title sponsor,

Cultivated. If you're looking into a vertical farm and don't know where to start or

which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today. Best of all, their

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As a reminder, if you're enjoying this episode, if you enjoyed this episode or past

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Nothing would please me more than to read that out on a future episode. Stay

tuned, coming up this week, likely tomorrow if

we can get the planning done right, but it should be in your podcast

inbox, another conversation with another amazing attendee

at the conference, round 2 with Nona Yehia of Vertical Harvest.

What a fantastic and inspiring conversation this was. This one's

coming to you soon, so get caught up on these episodes. Okay, until we meet

again, here's to your health. Thanks for listening. To read the full show

notes for this episode, which includes any links mentioned in the

episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit

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