S6E77: Nadun Hennayaka / GAIA Project Australia - Creating a More Symbiotic Relationship Between Mankind & Planet Earth

$680 million poured into precision ag last year.

Autonomous weeding robots dominated, and John Deere made 2 acquisitions in 3

months. A food company, not an equipment maker, bought a

robotics startup to protect its own supply chain. The deals are

accelerating, the money is moving, and the winners are already separating from the

pack. If you're investing, building, or buying in this space,

you need the full picture before your competitors get it. The 2025

Precision Agriculture Intelligence Report From iGrow News is now

available. Get your copy today at

igrownews.com/precision. If you are starting a

vertical farm and don't know where to begin or which technology would suit your needs,

then reach out to the experts at Cultivated. As indoor farm brokers, they

help connect you to the right technology and ensure your project is successful.

Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their

partners. Visit cultivated.com to learn more. And

that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com,

or click the link in the show notes. If you take, for example, traditional farming,

you can grow around 15 heads of lettuce per square meter because you

lose a lot of space to walk around. Then you move into, in the same

area. So that's, that's the betterness of mankind truly was, was

something I'm searching for. That time ISS was slowly starting to work on

growing plants in space. So they, there was also potential there, you know, because

like for us when we started, so we got this place in Docklands near the

harbour because we really got a nice— has significant potential. So for

me, getting up in the morning and work 7 days a week is channel supplies

in US. Created this platform is really for people who's in this sector. So

I'm currently using an NFT system monitoring film techniques,

just normal channel systems that very familiar in the hydroponic

systems I'm used to doing.

Welcome to the Vertical Farming

Podcast. Weekly conversations with fascinating CEOs,

founders, and agtech visionaries. Join us every week

as we dive deep into the world of vertical farming with your

host, Harry Duran. Vertical Farming Podcast Season 6.

Welcome back to all my regular listeners

and anyone who's found the show over the years or over the past

months or even recently, and it's just maybe listened to one or two

Welcome back. I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy

day to listen to these episodes. I've been learning so much since I

started the show, and I know based on the feedback that I've gotten that you

have as well. So I really appreciate you being a

regular listener. If this is your first time listening and you just

found this show because of a recommendation, then make sure to thank your

friend on my behalf. This is the one where we interview fascinating

CEOs and founders of the leading vertical farming companies from around the

world, and I'm your host, Harry Duran. In case you missed last week's episode,

I spoke with Magdalena Zaworska. She's the co-founder and CEO of Nanga

Tech. It's a company that's using nanogas technology to boost the productivity of

farming. From her hometown of Warsaw, Poland, we had a great discussion about

her background in psychology, the numerous benefits that nanogas and

nanobubble technology has for the agtech industry,

and as such, it was a very helpful and enlightening conversation

for myself and for my listeners. Make sure you check that out. This week we

head down under and speak with Nadun Hanayaka. He's the founder and CEO at

Gaia Project Australia. It's a company whose goal

it is to produce sustainable food and electricity to every human on

this planet. That's definitely an ambitious goal, and if

anyone's going to make it happen, after this conversation with Nadun, I figure he's

well poised to do that. He has over 20 years of experience in engineering and

technology and is well versed in the global tech

arena. We discussed the current offerings of Gaia Project Australia, their

recent partnership with NASA, and the ways in which Nadoon is shining a

light on hydroponics and vertical farming. Very

enjoyable. I never know what to expect with these conversations, and I'm never

disappointed. It's fascinating to see where they're headed. I always like

to ask folks to leave a rating or review on this podcast,

and I'd like to be completely open and let you know that I received my

first 1-star review. So I don't want to call out the

person who read it, but I do take all of those to heart.

It just feels like there's a tone in these conversations that

he or she was not vibing with. And

by all means, I understand that I'm not for everyone, and at some

point I may inject some of my own personality here or my

personal preferences. That's not intentional, but that's something that just comes up in the

course of these conversations that I have with these amazing leaders of these

companies. So again, I appreciate this

listener From all indications, they've been a longtime listener. And for all your

listenership up until that point, I truly appreciate you and thank you

for listening and providing that feedback. That's not going to deter me from continuing

to ask for you, the regular listeners, the folks who keep on coming back, who

are getting value from this show, to leave me a rating and a review at

ratethispodcast.com/vfp. Okay, before

we jump into this uninterrupted conversation with Nadun, here are a few words from the

folks that support this show. This episode is brought to you by Indoor

AgCon 2023. I'm so happy to have been working with the

team last year. Indoor AgCon 2022 was my

very first indoor farming conference, so it was really eye-opening for me. So

I'll always be grateful to the team there for rolling out that carpet for me,

and I really had a good time meeting a lot of past guests and excited

to join them again this year. Entering its 10th year in a row, it's the

largest trade show and conference for vertical farming in CEA, and it's returning to

Caesars Forum Conference Center in Las Vegas on February 27th

and 28th of 2023. Once again, they'll be co-located with the National Growers

Association Show as well, which is a really good fit for them. The conference

keeps growing, and this year it's doubled in size. The expo floor now has

more than 170 booths filled with new product resources and

solutions to explore. You'll hear from experts including CEOs,

growers, investors, and others in the field during this full-scale

educational conference. As always, you'll be able to connect with peers, grocers, and other

potential new business partners at their great networking events. I haven't even gotten

to the best part. The team at Indoor AgCon has given

listeners of this show 20% off their full

access conference pass. All you have to do is use promo code

VFP, as in Vertical Farming Podcast, and sign up at

indoor.ag. See you there. Regular listeners to

the show will know that we are also fans of the work being done by

the iGrow News team. The team at iGrow has been kind enough to provide

a free month of their paid subscription to the Indoor Vertical Farming

newsletter, and those will be available to the first 3 listeners

that send in a review. So

ratethispodcast.com/vfp, the first 3 reviews that come

in. Once it's sent, send an email to harry@verticalfarmingpodcast.com

along with your preferred email, and we'll be sure to get that set up for

you. So Nadun Henaika, CEO at Gaia Project Australia,

thank you so much for Thank you for being patient with me today and joining

me on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

It's great to chat to you, Harry. So I want to always let people know

that taking imperfect action is always great and nothing

ever goes the way you want it to. So, I mean, Dylan was on the

session today and I wasn't.

And it's just, I think sometimes as podcasters, because I have my first show I

started in 2014 called Podcast Junkies and I interview other podcasters.

And so I've been doing that for 8 years, 300+ episodes. And I've— so I've

seen everything that can happen since. It doesn't surprise me anymore.

And sometimes I'm the cause of it too. So I have to— but, you know,

real life sometimes takes over sometimes. And I think it's just a reminder sometimes

that we all try to project this like perfect image online that everything, we've got

it under control, but it's like the ducks on the water, right? Underneath their

feet are like flapping really, really fast. Yeah. That

is true. That is true. I have seen that only, only quite recently. I was

like, oh, they're so peaceful in the water. But no, it's not when you go

under. So where's, for the benefit of listener, where's home for you?

It is in Melbourne, Australia. Okay. How long you been there?

Been there since 2007. So it's been a while now. So

yeah, I migrated from the next door neighbor from New Zealand.

So it's, uh, was also a good journey. And I love it here. I mean,

this is one of the best cities I've ever been in. So yeah, I'm gonna

call it home from now on. What's one of the least appreciated

things about Melbourne that most people don't know about? Well, I would say it

is the weather. It is quite unpredictable. You know, we start nice and sunny, then

2 hours later it's winter clothing back on. So

yeah. Yeah, very cool. And so where did

you study university? So I did my

studies, my school and university in New Zealand. So I studied in University

of Auckland. Okay. I finished my bachelor's around

mid-2000. I did 6 years in university. So, you know, I

started with engineering, then I swapped degrees, took a year off. So it was

a whole roller coaster ride. Yeah, it was great.

Where did your passion for engineering come from? It was an— all right,

so it's not really a passion, but I've been— for me, my whole

family, my parents, my mom, dad, my uncles, my sister is an engineer,

my brother's a doctor. So our family's always just trying

to push everyone through to, you know, get to the best. I'm

truly happy about it. But yeah, I mean, I did engineering for them, but

to realize it now, I mean, it's really coming handy, you know, after about 20

years of studying. So yeah. And so what was those

early jobs like? Was it what you thought it would be when you graduated from

uni? Oh no. So, I mean, to be honest, so even

though I started with engineering, after second year I quit. I mean, I just couldn't

deal with it. So I took some time off, then I finished my bachelor's in

commerce and business majors, and I did network engineering as

well. So I did work in engineering field, but more towards the

IT or the IoT sector. And yeah, look, everything was great.

I mean, job was job for me for till about for my whole 20s. And

after things kind of took turn after I turned 30, you know, that's when I

kind of figure out, looking to figure out your life. Not like

some people. I'm, I think some people are lucky to know what they want to

do early days. I wasn't one of them. So I

think they think they do, and then when they realize, like, when the real world

kicks in, and then you realize, like, we're— we have so many different things

that light us up, so many different passions, and it's not— I don't think— and

then I'm Latino, so I understand, like, immigrant parents, like, expecting

a certain thing to happen for, for their son, and it's only because they want

the best for them. So that's definitely why, but You know, we start to have

different likes and different passions, and I think things start to come awake for us

as we try new things. Oh no, 100%. I truly agree. I

think always parents, what they do is with their best intentions. I'm truly thankful

for what they did. I mean, all the goods. Yes, I mean, I was one

of the roughest kids to deal with back in the day. All I know, things

have passed from now. They're proud of you now though, I'm

sure. Hopefully. I mean, very hard to please our parents, you know. So

I'm sure you know as well. Yeah, there's always like,

You bring home the, the B+ and it's like, uh, could have tried a

little harder. You know,

yeah, sure. So with a name like, uh, Gaia

Project, obviously there's something aspirational there, some thought

about maybe what was happening or what you were seeing happening on a

global scale. So what was coming alive for you as you

started to think about, you know, the creation of this new company? It is, I

mean, Mine all started pretty much straight after

I turned 30. So I mean, I was happy with my corporate jobs, you know,

it was all good. But then after I turned 30, I was like, you know

what, I need to figure out a purpose in my life. So I did more

traveling, read a lot of books. I think the fundamentals

of my understanding from all of that is life is—

happiness is a byproduct of service in my point of view.

So I think it's just doing something to betterness of

mankind truly was something I'm searching for and I want to do.

And I think that's how Gaia came across. Gaia is another name for Earth. So

it was like my company is built for Earth project. It's to

make this place better for us and also the animals, you know,

everything around us, the nature, the biosphere, the whole thing. So

yeah, I mean, and it's truly wholehearted. That was the main reason this was

built. And yeah. What were— who were you working with or who was

inspiring you or kind of who did you have as a sounding board for some

of these ideas? Early on. So I mean, for me to figure out what

I really want to do, because I want to make positive impacts. So I mean,

earlier days, like around 2015, 2016, I started looking into

renewable energy because I truly had a passion. I'm like, look, there is a

big solution that we can support and implement. So I look into Southeast

Asia in renewable energy projects for commercial scale.

And through that, I learned about waste-to-energy, which

is called plasma gasification. I mean, I still don't know how this tech is not

really commercialized still, like is really great. Like, there's companies in Japan and

India, they're really working closely with new tech. So then I kind

of stumbled upon this Netherlands company who's using air bubbles

to filter plastic from the water without

harming the fish. Wow. So that's like, so my goal was to build

this air bubble because like in Southeast Asia, it's one of the biggest countries that

pollute the ocean, you know, plastics and then creating all these

unnecessary problems. So I was like, you know, what if you can capture this plastic,

put into these waste-to-energy platforms, and then create energy from

waste? But then, so this is how I stumbled upon vertical farming.

Then I was like, well, you still have a byproduct of CO2. How do you

mitigate CO2? Because this is the biggest greenhouse gas problem. Yes, of

course. And yeah, so I think hydroponics came in. They were like, you know what,

plants use a lot of CO2. So I mean, that's a great place to

offset the CO2 so people can eat and go back into the soil.

And then, uh, yes, the purple lights in vertical farms was the one that really

took me in. I was like, wow, what is this? You know, this looks like

a nightclub. It does. And I can actually work on this

place. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned the

hydroponics. Obviously, it's almost like the gateway into vertical farming. But

were you not then starting to notice other companies in the space? Other—

obviously, I'm sure you started doing research. And so where— what type of

rabbit holes were you going down? Yeah, so like for example, Australia and

New Zealand, we're not really big on hydroponics till like early

2020s. So I mean, the inspiration kind of came from AeroFarms

because they started their research in early 2012-13, and

I saw their test farms back in the days. I was like, this is

crazy, how do people grow things upwards? It was straight up out of a

comic book. So I was like, oh, you know what, like, you know, when you're

truly interested in something, for me, I really wanted to break it down to figure

out how does this work, how— I mean, because it was just amazing. I'm

like, how can I be a part of this? That was the idea. And I

looked into NASA. I mean, that time ISS was slowly starting to work

on growing plants in space, so there was also potential there,

you know. So I thought, you know, this is something definitely worthwhile

looking into. So slowly digged in, and, uh, yeah, 3, 4 years

later, I'm here. So good journey so far. Yeah, I was

looking at some of the projects you had been working on when you got started

in 2017 and focused on some plastic removal

strategies as well, and then waste-to-energy,

solar utility, and then sustainable farming. Were you sort of

kind of thinking about what the company was going to be and what were some

of the projects that were getting some traction for you? Yeah, it was. It's crazy

because, I mean, I always thought renewable was my path. We're like, this is it,

I'm going to stick to this. And then suddenly went to waste-to-energy, then I'm like,

oh, you know what, this is it, this is what I'm going to stick to.

But It's like, because I wasn't really set on, you know, this is the

only road that I really want to be in. And that's why I kind of

keep exploring what I want to do. For me, my life is quite simple. I'm

single, I'm kind of middle-aged, but I really want to devote it for something

meaningful for myself that I think is beneficial. Yeah.

So, and I don't know, something about this hydroponic systems really got— and

that's when I like, because how this whole system kind of came

across was I'm kind of an amateur stargazer. So I got a couple of different

telescopes at home. kind of from the old school ones to the new age ones.

So my channels are oscillating. And then how this came

across was it's a telescopic kind of method that you used by the old

telescopes. So this is how this whole story of our patented channel

started. So yeah. Wow. When did that passion start?

Probably around late 2018. And I, 'cause I thought about like, you

know, planting we've done for the last 800 years, you know, from the Dark

Ages, it's always been linear. Yeah. But we have improved so much on

certain other things like controlling the light frequency, how to

deliver the nutrients directly into the root. But then why do we still

need to keep preset fixed distance spacing? I mean, it's all

good when you have natural farming like Australia, you know, when you

have unlimited land and water, that's fine. Yeah. But that's not the case in the

future. But then you look at farms like Eurofarms. So if you're going

upwards and if you're 100% depending on, you know, artificial

lighting, cooling, HVAC, that's a significant energy. So every cent

saved square centimeter matters. So the idea is how to

get the best out of it, how to increase the density. And that's what I

thought, you know, why don't we make things, why don't we grow our— make our

channels to grow with the plants rather than the other way around, make the nature

fit for us. Why don't we fit the nature? So yeah, that's, that's the

fundamentals of it. So exciting. So for folks who are

not familiar with Gaia Project in its current iteration and what the current offerings

are, how do you explain to people

like what your current offering stack looks like and then who is an

ideal customer? Sure, sure. So how our systems work is, so

it's very, very simple and straightforward. So if we currently

using an NFT system or nutrient film techniques, just normal channel

systems that very familiar in the hydroponic systems on leafy greens.

And our channels are very easily retrofitting. So it's a normal 50 by 100

similar channel. But the difference in our ones is it's a

telescopic So the pay-tender, there's 3 main components on our

channels. That's the individual channel, there's a smaller and a bigger one that

goes in and out. And then there's a top tray system that supports each plant.

So if you take, for example, traditional farming, you can grow

around 15 heads of lettuce per square meter because you lose a lot of

space to walk around. Yeah. Then you move into standard or

traditional greenhouses that can push about 25 plants per square meter. I'm talking

about mature lettuce heads. So that's about 2 200 millimeters in size. Then you

go to advanced greenhouses such as the ones in Netherlands like

Hortiplant, they have robotics and everything with moving gully systems.

They can push around 35 plants per square meter. And our

system can push over 50 plants per square meter. Now that's

a huge jump. Wow. So we're moving from just a normal

25 or 35 to 50 plants per square meter. So that's doubling the

output in the same area. So that's the difference. So we increase the

density of the plants from the initial first second week up until the

final week of the growth. So the channels expand only as the plant needs. So

that's where the difference is. So for us, the concentrating for the next

few years is we have done just over 3 years of testing

on our channels. So they are pretty much market ready. So goal

is to concentrate on selling our channels to the public within

Australia for the next 12 months, just to get further idea of

how the large-scale systems work. Like we already have a pre-sales customer who's

a Queensland farmer who heard about our system. We had a chat and he was

really keen on the system and I'm quite happy about it now. Yeah. We do

have another customer from South Africa who want to build a

2,500 square meter large-scale farm. And we do have a lot of

interest from large-scale farms now in Australia. So it's really

great to see that feedback from people without even going into

the market. So, and that's the one side. So that's called our Earth Project side.

side. So we always have the other component for NASA we're doing is for the

space project. So there's 2 arms we're constantly working on, which is

amazing. Like, you know, something I didn't even dream of 20 years ago.

So explain a little bit about what you're doing on this, on the NASA side.

Yeah, so NASA was just a random stumble-upon story.

So how, when I came up with the idea in 2019, so I'm sure,

Harry, you know quite well about this sector. I mean, I did listen to a

couple of very good podcasts of yours as well. So it

is big on both. And, you know, in the space, you do need this

kind of solution. But when I came up with this idea to double the

output, I tried to get funding or support, like joining a incubator

accelerator, but then people thought I was a bit crazy because I don't really have

much of a background on agriculture, right? Yeah, who's this guy? Who's this

guy coming up and say, you know, you got a better solution for a $40

billion industry? So But for 2 years, I couldn't get support or

validation from anyone. So around 2021, I was like,

okay, you know what, I got nothing to lose, then, you know, just getting to

the best brains in the world to have a look at the system. So fortunately,

at that time— Yeah. NASA had a deep space food challenge where they

basically applied, open for the whole world, that you

can supply your designs that you think that a system that can provide the

highest output for the lowest amount of input. So I designed a new system

according to their very strict parameters, did animation for the

system, and just submitted it. Thought, you know, why not? Let's see

how this flies out. Then yeah, a few months later, I got a callback

from them saying, hey, you know, you actually won the International Innovation Award. I was

like, oh wow, you know, this was completely

unexpected. It's

really— It was. I was like, you know what, if I can get validation from

anyone, I think the best of the brains say, you know, this has potential. I

was like, oh wow, finally there's something, there's a break. You know, and yeah, so

the whole announcement went on NASA TV and it was presented by

the astronaut Scott Kelly. He was one of the first people who did the

lettuce on the ISS and then had the taste. So he's like, oh, look, we

truly love your system and what you guys are doing. Wow. So now we're building

a prototype for them for end of this year. We're building it in

Melbourne. So a similar platform we're building for them. It's for a

3-year mission that can support 4 astronauts on long-duration

flights. So we're currently testing them on 0.9g.

Down in about another 2 years, we'll go microgravity. So

system is 2 cubic meters. We can supply around 600 to 800

grams of leafy greens on the spaceships. So that's the idea

of the system prototype we're building. Yes. And yeah, so

our main components are, we have,

the channels are made from HDPE, so it's recyclable, and then we have

zero waste because of the roots and the pods coming out of them,

roots goes back to a mycelium network to grow mushrooms. So it's a very

closed-loop system. Yeah, so it's quite interesting doing that every day.

And I do love coming to work nowadays. Yeah, a couple of

questions. Are they going to let you be the repair guy and fly out to

space in case something breaks? I'm really hoping so. I'm one of the guys who

are waiting till Elon just land his first rocket in Mars. I'm like, yes, please

sign me in. I'll be your horticulturalist. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, that's the most long-distance repair guy

visit. I'm here to fix the

hydroponics, you know. 6-month trip one way. Yeah,

that's crazy. What were some of the challenges that

you were encountering when you're trying to create a system

to be supported in that environment as opposed to what you would traditionally have to

do? do here on the ground? Parameters-wise, it's all at the moment is

very same. Like, so we, because our initial stages for the

next, even for the next stage for the next 12 months, as well for Phase

3, is always trying on 1G. We're not going to go below that. Because

once our initial setup of the expansion is done, because currently

ISS, I mean, it's not, it's about an 8-year project now. And it's moving to

Artemis program as well. They've been testing this things called

pillows or pillow beds that they have the nutrients and everything comes in and the

pillow beds expand as the plant expands. Now, these systems are already there.

So our goal is to supplement our channel systems with

these pillows to further increase. So that's a pathway.

Because it's very hard for NFT channels to run on zero-G. We can,

we might have maybe possibilities of running on Mars because they have about a

0.38 G. But with lunar surfaces where you have zero-G, it's

quite impossible. possible to have water flowing through because it'll be everywhere. So that's why

you kind of have to have a locked-in system. End of the day, for us,

NASA has always been this really

nice prize we want, you know. I mean, I love the

development of that. And end of the day, look, I think it's like you learn

from the mistake we made from Earth and we are like, let's not— if you

go to another planet, let's do this right this time, you know. And then that's

a far away goal, but I think the urgency for me is to deploy

this around here. I mean, as you know, Harry,

hydroponics is not a fix for everything of the food sector. You know, we can

fix about 15 to 20% of the food sector maximum. So I mean,

if you can fix 20%, you know, you only have 80% to fix. So, you

know, it's a problem. It's less. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true. And so

I'm curious, when you think about the opportunity that

you have to work with NASA and how that's making It's almost from a

visibility perspective to really shining a light on

hydroponics and vertical farming, especially when you get that success.

Where do you test these environments here? So at the moment,

we're currently building the systems on our end. So one of the complex

stages we need to bypass now is— so the restrictions we have is

one of the key ones that is really struggling for us on our end is

system size. So for us to deliver See,

initially it's always easy to design and draw this and animate it and then send

it to NASA and get the tick off, right? Now they said, all right boys,

we like your system, now you gotta build it. You're like, okay, now this is

it. Yeah, yeah. It's not that hard. It's the hard part. Because it's a very

small area, we got 2 cubic meters to build this entire

system, and we're growing 120+ plants on this

2 cubic meter system. And it's— that includes tanks,

nutrition, nurseries, microgreens system, systems, a whole lot had to be

squashed into this one small area, which is something we're

currently doing. We got the channels right now. Now we just need to build the

rest of the electronics on the system. And yeah, so once—

I'm quite confident we're going to achieve this in the next 3 months. And then,

of course, we have our assessment in December. Okay. And it'll be open to public

afterwards in Melbourne as well. So people can see, you know, what might be in

the space in the future. So, and yeah, and then after end of next

year, After we pass phase 3, we're trying to set our systems on

microgravity. Most probably try companies like Axiom. Okay. Or

someone to take our channels up to the space and then test drive

them. But yeah, it's because the thing for us is, as you know, Harry, we're

a startup, so, you know, budget is always tight. So we are like, okay, let's

try to put the money in something that may be profitable so we can get

some revenue rather than working on space. That's pretty

hard, you know, to get funding for us. So

yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this your first time as a CEO?

I have. So I've been head of operations on companies

on most of the C-level, but I did have 2 other startups previously. I mean,

one of them was MySolar. Okay. The one before that was a recruiting company

back in the— I think about 15 years ago I started. I didn't

really have the soul for it. So yeah, so this is a whole new

gig now, but managing people was something I'd done for about for 10 years. So,

and I kind of really understand the environment, how to be a nice person, then,

you know, treat people right. Yeah, that's usually CEO.

Yeah, it is, it is. I think once you work with a lot of other

people, you're like, you know, what's the best of that person? And then learn from

that and make sure you, you be that for them, for your staff.

Did you have relationships with mentors or anyone who helped guide you

along the way or provide advice in your career? In my

career, I mean, I was lucky. I mean, I was fortunate to work

with big industry companies. Like, I was with Acer and then I was with

Senacom. That's a company who optioned me for, like, I mean, I worked closely

with Apple. We built one of the first third-party service centers with Apple

and worked with Cisco, Microsoft. So there's a lot of

corporate environments that I got really used to, especially

dealing with garments and everything. And when you get exposed to all these

different environments and people, you kind of get the vibe on how their

team works and what people like and they don't. I think I always

look at that and then get— that's why I always love meetings in person because

you get the feel rather than just a voice. And then yeah, I learned through

that. I'm hoping my guys probably, when they listen to this, you know,

if I have— if I do anything bad, do let me know.

What were you thinking about when you first get started like

this? There's so many different roles to fill and so many different positions and you're

trying to think about What, how to build a team for the vision that you

have? And, and maybe for you it's even more challenging because you've pivoted a couple

of times. So, you know, how did you think about team growth

in those early days? Yeah, I think early days was the hardest. I mean, even

now, I mean, I'm still the CEO, I'm the senior architect, the

designer, the engineer, and also the cleaner on the weekend. So I mean, I

wear all the hats still till today, so it hasn't changed much.

Yes, but I think earlier days, one of the greatest lessons I learned

was being efficient in your business. Like for me, I didn't have any CAD

experience. I didn't know any design drawings like AutoCAD, Autodesk,

but most of my systems had to be built on this platform to even to

run a simulation. So I think early 2019,

2018, I kind of looked into this and I had people hired from like

platforms such as Fiverr, you know, just get them hourly based and they get me

the designs. I think 6 months into this project, I had a monthly bill about

just close to $3,000. I was like, this is not working out. So

I took about, I think like 3 to 4 months

off. I did night school and I learned CAD. Now I pretty much do all

the initial design. So we still have about 4 big engineering

companies we pass our designs to. But the good thing now is like I can

do the initial skeleton, test drive them. We've got a massive 3D print farm that

we have, so we can test. Design, test within 24 to

48 hours and see how they work and do the reiterations. And once it's

all finalized on my end, I can send to engineering to get their proper

approval from the people who have actual degrees and master's on that field.

But it does save a lot of money. Yeah, who actually went to school for

this, right? Yeah, exactly. And then, so where—

how do you think about where the company is going now and where you're going

to see the challenges or the opportunities For growing the team?

I think we truly have a great potential because as it is, Harry,

like for us, what we created is— what we're changing is the bedrock of

hydroponics. Yes, there are hydroponics, you do have a lot of like deep water culture,

NFT there, there are a lot of different methods of growing. But then for us,

we can change density of a plant growing system significantly such

as ours. I'm not saying we are the only one, like, so let's say for

example AM Hydro, they are, I think, one of the biggest channel suppliers in US.

Their channels, they can push the same amounts, but they have 2 different channels that

they use. So they grow from the nursery, then to the secondary system, then once

they grow, they move out. Now, all of this system, then you have to have

labor, then they have cross-contamination. So there are a lot of things. And then

there are companies such as HoriPlant in Netherlands, one of the largest leafy green

suppliers. They use robotics. Yeah. One of their

robots costs about €260,000. for a

robot. Like, so there are other options to grow these volumes,

but the thing is we are the simplest, most cheapest solution out. And that's why

I think there's such a good potential for us. So, and then

creating channels, that's exactly similar to what's currently in the market. The

main goal for us is retrofitting because let's say someone has

a farm and then has its channel systems like running

NFT already, they can keep the rest of the infrastructure in their

tanks, pumps, everything is the same. They just need to change the channels and then

how the expansion system works, which is a very simple solution. So

basically, you create less waste and then also a lot of less sunk

cost for the people who want to invest. And then in return, you literally get

double the yield. So double the yield means double the revenue, and then your operation

cost hasn't gone up. So, and it's most efficient for vertical

farms because for vertical farms, it's always the electricity for

the LEDs is about 60% of your energy. And I think this—

I think apart from Calera, there's not many people who does actual

leafy greens or lettuce heads because they know the time in

between to grow and the number of plants you can grow for the profitability is

quite less. And that's where we come in. We're giving that window now, like,

hey, you know, now with vertical farms, you can actually do the same traditional

farm leafy greens without losing any revenue. So that creates

fundamental pathways for us to move So initially, we want

to go through testing the channels in the market, do some retrofitting,

learn some turnkey solutions, and then start building our own hardware as well in

regard to sensors. So it is a long journey, but quite

interesting so far. Makes sense. Sure. And so where do you see the

markets opening up for GAIA, and are they different than what your original plans

were? Yes. So for me, Harry, like my original— I mean,

you've got space covered, so— Space is so far going well. That's

great. But for, yeah, like my original plan, like 2 years ago, ago

was truly to build a full turnkey supply. So go from everything from

the channels to the HVAC to the automation, the whole lot. What I have

learned is it's like you don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's someone already invented

certain components who's really great at it, you know, like, and then what if

you have something great? Why don't we just collaborate with each other companies and then

create a single solution? Because we don't need everybody else to

research the same thing on different places. It's unnecessary. Like

there are companies I know have the best LEDs. Good point. Yeah. And we're currently

testing them. And there are companies that I know who has great HVAC systems.

Perfect. For our robotics, because our channels are very unique, we

have built our own robotics. So good thing for us is we got a lot

of help from this La Trobe University in Melbourne. So we have their robotics team

working closely with us. Because we had to build 2 different robotic systems for

NASA and then one for the Earth systems as well. So we are working with

them. And also we got a startup in actually Netherlands again

who created this amazing unit, this small carbon capture unit

that's the size of a small refrigerator that captures CO2 from the air and

then concentrate it and push it into greenhouses and vertical farms. I mean, how

amazing is that? So you don't have to— Wow. Yeah, it's fantastic.

I was like, I would like to purchase your first equipment. So they're doing the

release in next year, March. I'm like, why not? Because

ideally, my goal is to create a solution but does

not create more problems. You know, it's like, it's, that's the idea

of efficiency in the future. You know, just make something but make sure that it

doesn't create problems on other. So yeah, the goal for us is

just hopefully working with other companies down the track and create some partnerships and

then delivering these solutions. How has your experience been

connecting? Obviously it sounds positive from those interactions, but have you

started to connect with other peers in the the space in terms of what's happening

either in Australia or New Zealand and elsewhere, maybe through conferences as

well? Yeah, the thing with Herree is like we haven't really had

much time on marketing or connection with people because I'm— I

know that even my advisors say I'm very into my engineering, their own

mindset rather than marketing. Because for me, I still believe the thing

called the word, you know, if I sell something, I want to make sure this—

it's true. So yeah, I've been pushing this saying, my works, and I know it

works. So for me, it's my engineering need to be complete, but everyone else pushed

me saying, hey, you have to work on the marketing side. And it's very

true. Yeah, but the crazy thing for us is we do get a lot of

positive feedback from customers that we hasn't even started selling. So that kind

of gives us the idea, like, you know, the solution itself is great. We

haven't truly decided which ones people to speak with. Like,

for example, like, there are a couple of companies, small companies in Australia,

that has taken certain sectors. For example, there's Modular Farms,

they're based in Brisbane. They have, they have this amazing custom-built

container farming solution, and we want to speak with them down the track.

So, and I know these people as well because we have a

common mutual, mutual person that we know who used to be

my teacher. So I took a course in hydroponics and greenhouse and

crop cultivation because coming from engineering, I thought I need, I need some good

understanding about this, how this works. And my teacher is Graham Smith.

He's an amazing guy. He'd done farming from Dutch farms to Netherlands to

UAE to Australia and Singapore. So he's one of our advisors and

also equity partners. So yeah, so connecting with these people like, hey, how

can we supply our systems retrofitting to yours? And then, you know, we can create

a new solution. I mean, that's the idea. But as you mentioned, Harry,

something it is in my mind. I'm truly going to look into this in the

next coming months to try to contact with people. That's what I thought. I mean,

your podcast is great because you do speak with very interesting

type of people. I think one of them was Ali, I forgot his surname, who—

Ali Danyali. Yeah. Danyali. Yeah. Who had this service

about farm as a service. And I always kept it in my mind. And I

was like, what a great episode you had. You know, it's because you always, you

want to break the system of depending on large-scale suppliers, you know,

the creating urban solutions such as ours. Like that's one of the reasons we're building

one of the vertical farms in the heart of the city. Be like, you know

what, these farms can be built anywhere and they don't have to be dependent on

this transportation, this whole lot of things. But then the end of

the day, you have these other people. How do you connect the customers? And then

bang, Harry Shaw got the solution for that. So I was like, you know, I'm

going to speak with Ali down the track, how we can collaborate.

So yeah. Well, it's so funny because you mentioned it's modular farms and container, and

I immediately thought of Ali because we've been talking and we've had

some follow-up conversations as well. And it just— I'm really excited about his

model. I'm trying to see if there's ways that I can support him through the

connections I've made on the show. And because I mean, the same idea, the farming

as a service, I'm like, the light bulb went off and I was like, this

is exactly, you know, what you need. You need that marketplace. And with every

marketplace, you know, you've got the buyers and the sellers. So there's the chicken and

egg, you know, and which one do you focus on? And, and he's, you know,

decided to tackle that challenge and he's having some success. So I think anything we

can do as an industry to kind of join forces and just make introductions

and connections, I think is always going to be a good thing. Oh no, I

truly agree because like for us when we started, so we got this place in

Docklands near the harbour because we really got a nice place to build our first

like commercial farm for customers to sell. And people always knock on the door like,

what are you guys doing? Because we're building all this crazy stuff inside the building.

A time machine. Yeah, we're like, I'm building a vertical farm.

So you guys gonna sell lettuce? We're like, yeah. And they're like, oh, just please

let us know, we want to buy it. And That's how I came across Ali,

like your episode with that. I'm like, oh my God, this does make a lot

of sense, you know, because these customers need a platform to buy it. And

what if they just like click on the thing and, oh wow, there's a farm

in our next-door apartment, we didn't know that, you know. So

yeah. That's very, very good. So when you think about

the why, like I— you've mentioned a couple of, uh, reasons,

you know, when you were getting started. Now looking at where you're that,

seeing the potential of the change this can have in the world and

seeing, you know, Gaia's place in this and what

you've been able to do so far, has that changed at all? Like, you know,

why you get up every morning, why you work the long days, and why this

is important for you? No, I think that is still the same. I mean,

for me, I'm glad I'm— I have chosen a path that I

think there's a potential for it to be something really great. Yeah,

that can truly change or help mankind. You know, for me,

as I said again, Hari, it's just like, you know, I want to make sure

the world is a better place because I was here. I think that was something

I strive for. And I think this has significant potential. So

for me, getting up in the morning and work 7 days a week is— I

never thought I could do it. I mean, I used to complain working 30 hours.

I was like, oh, this is hard. I couldn't do

this anymore. Because it wasn't yours. Yeah, it wasn't yours. That is true. Yeah. And

so like, as much as you try to get as much work done in the

week, how do you find time to relax? And what do you do that,

you know, to just stay sane or just keep your mental health in check?

Well, my couple of my guys at my work asked me that too. I thought

you were not gonna ask me that question. Because we care, dude. We

care about you. I know, I know, I know. I think my guys do too.

I, I— the thing is, I don't really get tired. Like, I

can't really do anything else rather now than just this. But the good thing is,

like, I mean, I just celebrated my 40th 6 months ago and we were

overseas diving just around Asia and Thailand.

And it was the most amazing, cleanest seas I've ever seen. Because of

COVID I think it took all the travelers and tourism out and it just replaced

the nature. And then, and I've been out in the sea so many times, but

I've never seen the water and the fishes as clear as it was last time.

Yeah. I think for me, I think the goal is at least every 6 to

8 months, take a day, take a week off just to refresh your

mind, you know, reset the system. Yeah, the reset's important, I think. If you otherwise,

you get burned out, right? And then you start to lose some of that

energy and that enthusiasm. I think it's true

because, I mean, I tried to figure out what was the ideal amount of hours

that to work. And I found out around 8 to 10

is the best. Anything more than that, you become counterproductive. And for

me, I always have like Saturdays, Sundays, I only work every 6 hours a day,

so it kind of breaks it down. Only, only. Yeah,

yeah, kind of short hours. What's a

tough question you've had to ask yourself recently? Tough question is, I mean,

I would say always been, it's just like, am I doing the right thing? Is

it the right decision? Because as a startup CEO, I mean, I have a lot

of different pathways. My advisors, team, and a lot of people

that I speak with, you know, tell me to take, you know, they're like, you

know, stop doing this, head to marketing or do capital raising

to further R&D or something. So, but then the end decision is made

by me. So I'm like, have I made the right decision? So it's always that

question always there. But I think I always look back on my, how I

performed, how I did. And, you know, the journey that you always look back at,

that's how you connect the dots. For me, I'm like, you know what, so far

I haven't been wrong. But end of the day, sometimes you have to make mistakes.

Yeah. Without them, you can't really learn. I mean, there are certain mistakes I made

even in the last 6 to 12 months that I'm like, you know what, I

actually learned something from it. Like, we had a VC company pushed so much money

into us. I was like, no, no, I'm not interested. I wasn't interested. I was

like, I'm just— I really don't need that much money yet, you know. I mean,

maybe down the track I might. But then when I needed the money, they're like,

oh, sorry, our pool ran out. I'm like, oh my God, I should say yes.

Stuff like that, just, uh, yeah. I mean, it's learn from your business. And then

you build better. That's hopefully the idea. Yeah, I think with this industry, it's been

fascinating to watch, is there's a lot of opportunities opening up, and some of

it is a strike while the iron is hot. And to your point, and from

the example you just gave, you know, is it possible, you know, to think

that this may not always be such enthusiasm? Or, you know,

people are looking to invest money in projects, and then if they don't— can't invest

it with yours, they'll quickly find another one. So I think it's really Seeing where

there's an opportunity to leverage that. And then, because you— if you know in your

heart you're going to put that money to the best use possible, then it's like,

just how can you build some of that runway for yourself to give yourself some

breathing room? It is. That's so true. I think one of the hardest things we

found even till now is because we're a hardware-based company and

mostly some platforms are in a startup world. I think one of the things

I've seen in the last 5 or 6 years is they put the blanket on

startup as saying it's really not like— it's not saying application development is

less costly than hardware. But when you develop hardware, like for us,

engineering costs about $50,000-$60,000 per part. Then our tooling costs about another

$30,000-$40,000. That's not even going to manufacturing. And that's to test drive something.

And when you have a startup with a valuation, let's say below $5 million, or,

you know, $3 or $4 million, which is what you get on a startup, and

then to raise $1 million, you got to lose about 25% of your equity minimum,

right? Yeah. And to do that at a pre-series level,

that's— you're not really digging a secure path for yourself in the future. So you

have to always balance that out as well. I mean, that's why I kind of

taken all these other pathways, just raise money as only as I

need it. Yeah. And then run through grants and prize money. We do get— good

thing for us is we apply for stuff and then we kind of being more

smart. That's good. So that's a few thousand bucks for us around the next few

months, you know, until we have something solid to show people so we can raise

the valuation and then actually get the money. So it's always that cat and mouse

game startups have to play. Yeah. Is there anything you've

changed your mind about recently? Changed my mind? I mean,

my book changes once every 2 to 3 weeks, but not on the big decisions.

But the dishes I normally make, I stick with it. But smaller ones, I always

change. Like, because everything we build is just literally just

built one day and then the test the next day kind

of scenario. So currently what we're planning on, like one of the things I'm not—

haven't changed yet, but planning on thinking is, can we push forward some other

project rather than just going on building? Because NASA we have to

do, but then some of the display farms, we're thinking whether we do need to

do this urgently because we have paid customers who want to build other projects. Why

are we delaying that? So these things, we're going to have a few meetings down

the track and just make some decisions because you have to, as you said before,

Harry, yet when the iron is hot. So it's always a gamble that you have

to make. So makes sense. Well, I'm definitely glad

your team is pushing you out of your comfort zone. I don't know if you've

done any other podcast interviews, but it's good to tell the story sometimes. And I

think similar to your example of like going for the swim in the

ocean, you know, every 6 months, even like talking about your journey, because sometimes it's

hard to look at the progress you've made until you've stopped and then you

look back and you see all that you've accomplished. And I think, you know, having

these conversations where you can share these stories, I think is really important. Yeah, I

think it's really important. No, that is true. I think a break, a mental health

day is quite important. But saying that, Ari, I think I should just mention you

this. So when I was on that holiday, right, I do remember when I was

at PPR then, and I was just sitting down with a beer in my hand

watching the sunset. Well, the one thing that came to my mind was I should

be in my office doing some CAD work. And I was like, this is, this

is not right. So yeah, sometimes your brain is just stuck in one

place though, because end of the day, I know startup, it's a hard leg for

the first time. Yeah. It's always been. And then for us, we are nearly on

the end now. So it's just, you know, tighten your gloves and just

go ahead. That's it. Yeah. So when you think about, you know, it's hard to

obviously plan sometimes, you know, people try to make these big 5-year, 10-year

plans, but maybe, you know, 1 year, 3 years, as you think about the

roadmap, as you think about what you want to get accomplished between now and then,

what are some of the things you're looking forward to? Truly looking forward for

2023 because we, once we have this, so the 2

things we're finishing end of the year is That's a prototype which will be on

display for customers in the new year. And the second one is we're building the

first fully automated farm in Victoria. So Melbourne don't have vertical farm

yet. So we're building the first one in Docklands as a startup, just with very

small amount of cash. But it's a big farm. We plan to build an

18 square meter ground space farm that pushing 6.5

tonnes of leafy greens a year. It's a huge output for a small footprint.

The idea of building this is we, as I said, I mean, we can't have

a lot of interest from people that coming in to know about the product. But

for us, we can only sell as much as we can by a design or

a picture or a picture. Yeah. But if people can come and view the system

in action and how this thing works, you know, it is very simple. People will

be like, you know what, this thing works, we can really use it in our

systems or retrofitting or whichever the options they want to use.

So hopefully around the next 3 to 4 months, around Jan, Feb, we'll

have the commercial farm finished as well. Then we have to build a Queensland farm,

which we're all going to be traveling down and get some— get the gloves and

shovels on and then build this farm. And yeah, that's all, really looking forward for

it because after that we plan to do 3 to 4 more projects within Australia

before we go, like for example, US and EU in

2024. That's our goal. So hopefully we can secure some

other market deals so we can explore that side of the world as well.

Yeah, it's— I think it's just initial start is the

time when you get some word out from the people and get some experience from

the feedback from the people, and I think the catches up of the system will

be much more easier. And then you've got the Moon and Mars, and then what

else is— Yes, Mars. I'm a big fan of Moon, I would say, or

do the long journey. Yeah, Harry, we will work and go down. Yeah, let me

know if you need someone to like record the interview on the way up or

something like that. Yeah, happy to do that. It's a long 6-month

journey, we got to figure something out. You gotta pick up a hobby or something

like that. So yeah. Knowing this

audience, and as you said, and I appreciate you listening to the show, and I'm

glad you've gotten value from it. You know, these are the folks that are in

the industry, your colleagues and your peers. I just want to give you an opportunity.

Is there a message that you have for your peers and your colleagues in this

space? Yeah, Darryl, look, thanks first of all for getting me on this because it's—

I think you created this platform, it's really for people who's in this sector. So

I'm too happy to get the opportunity to give— if asked for something, it's basically

if anyone is building any greenhouses or vertical farms, you know, using

NFT channels, or you're planning on retrofitting to increase the revenues, give us

a call, you know, just give us a yell and let's have a chat. Because

to be honest, for me, yeah, of course it is great for us to get

some sales, but I mean, why not use some tech? Would definitely create some

significant increases on your output. So just a train of thought, come to

our website, have a look. If you have questions, just send us a quick chat

through the website and we'll be in touch. Yeah, and so the website is, uh,

gaiaprojectaustralia.com.au. Okay, and we'll be sure we have

Actually, we have changed because people always say it's way too long.

No one can read it. And while

you look that up— Yes, so we hopefully change it down the track, but for

now it is kayaprojectaustralia.com.au. Okay, and we'll

have all the links in the show notes. Any of the resources we mentioned are

covered, and then if folks want to get in touch with you or the team,

we'll make sure we have those links available as well. So you're doing a really

enjoyed this conversation. Apologies again for showing up late, but it was worth it.

Hopefully it was worth it for you because I really, uh, just— I'm so fascinated

by all the stories that are happening in this field, how they're happening

at all different parts of the world, and how everyone in each country is tackling

their regional problems, you know, from a different angle. And now, you know,

with this added complexity and excitement about working in space,

that just makes, you know, the space that much more interesting for So I

really appreciate you, all the work you've done with Gaia so far, and your

passion really comes through. And I appreciate you sharing your story with my

listeners. Thank you, Harry. Thank you again. Amazing time. I think time is

always good. Worked out really well. I'm really glad to talk to you because I've

been listening, being a fan, and then talking to you on your program, like, oh,

this is a great opportunity. So yeah, I mean, definitely, hopefully have

that about another year or so to see the progress and see how everything goes.

Yes, definitely. In your part of the world. Yeah, it'd be great to

meet you in person. Yeah, great. Definitely. Thank you for the opportunity. Been

amazing. And if you make it to any of the conferences, I'm actually going to

Dubai, thankfully, with my sponsor Cultivated. There's the

AgriMe conference in Dubai at the end of this month. And so I'll be

interviewing a couple of the CEOs on site, and we've got a Vertical Farming

Podcast booth set up. So we're going to be doing— and I'm speaking on stage

for about 20 minutes as well. So it's an amazing— that's great.

Because we're speaking with Dubai in regards to the NEOM project, you know that. Oh

yeah, NEOM. I want to see. Yeah, it is something

amazing. I'm like, guys, if you're building this, we really need to be inside that.

So we've had to connect, make some connections now. So do mention us, Harry, if

you do go there. If you know anyone that I should meet

there while I'm there, I mean, it's an 18-hour flight. If I can take advantage

of like connections, if there's anyone in the space that you know, the NEOM project

is really interesting. and fascinating as well. So I can— there is a university

that they deal with. So what I'll do is I got your email address that

you replied me today, so I'll connect you through with someone there. Yeah, yeah, I

think because it's an amazing project and it's not just design. I think they already

start the groundwork here, so it's definitely happening. And okay, it would be something to

keep an eye on. Yeah, well, I appreciate your time again, Nadun. Thanks again

to Nadun for coming on the show and sharing his story. I appreciate

especially folks that are calling in from time zones like

Australia, like the UK, like other parts of the world,

like India. It's been really humbling for folks

to make their time, these leaders of these companies who are very, very busy, and

I really appreciate the time that they take. And I want to make sure it's

enjoyable for them, and we've been really connecting and vibing. So it seems that that's

happening, and I really appreciate that, but I don't take that for granted.

Special thanks to our Season 6 title sponsor, Cultivated. If you are looking into a

vertical If you're looking to transform and don't know where to start or which technology

would suit your needs, reach out to them today. And best of all, their service

is free because they work on behalf of their partners. Learn more at

cultivatd.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com.

Just leave out that last D. Podcast production and marketing provided by

Fullcast. Learn more at fullcast.co. And as a reminder, if

you're enjoying this show, please leave us a rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/bfp.

sure to read those out on future episodes. Tune in next week for another

fascinating conversation from the world of vertical farming, and it's with

Brandi Keen, co-founder at Cerna. Until we meet

again, here's to your health. Thanks for listening. To read the full show notes

for this episode, which includes any links mentioned in the episode, as

well as a full show transcription, visit

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, you can sign

up for our email list

$680 million poured into precision ag last year.

Autonomous weeding robots dominated, and John Deere made 2 acquisitions in 3

months. A food company, not an equipment maker, bought a

robotics startup to protect its own supply chain. The deals are

accelerating, the money is moving, and the winners are already separating from the

pack. If you're investing, building, or buying in this space,

you need the full picture before your competitors get it. The 2025

Precision Agriculture Intelligence Report from iGrow News is now

available. Get your copy today at

igrownews.com/precision.