The World Is Running Out Of Humans

Bren: Hello and welcome back to This Is Not A Data podcast. Today we're starting with a health check I had at a flashy Swedish startup, which then spiralled into a much bigger question. We get into AI diagnostics and why neither of us would swap out our doctor for a robot and some genuinely eye-opening data where the world's population is heading. So let's get into it. Hello and welcome back again to this is not a data podcast. You might be surprised to learn that I'm also here with Lolo again.

Lenno: Hey, Brent. Yeah, we're here. Back again.

Bren: I mean, one day we'll surprise everybody and it'll either just be you or just be me. But again, today we are here together, although we're not here together, but we're just here together.

Lenno: We're here together digitally. Yeah. So we have been talking about.

Bren: Exactly, exactly. Although in a couple of weeks we are hoping that we might be able to do one of these in person, actually in the same room, which would be... If I could do that whole kind of like, vuyakasha thing, I would, but I can't. So I'm just very excited about doing this in the same room. That would be very cool.

Lenno: I fully, fully agree with you. So we've been talking a lot about digitization, what it enables, but typically come back to the point where human to human interaction is an important one. Yet we have been completing all of these podcasts recordings on a digital platform. We haven't been yet in the same room. speaking with each other and recording this as well. So definitely looking forward to a moment where we can get that done.

Bren: This is, I couldn't agree more. mean, it's, it's, it's the wonders of modern technology that we can actually do this and not be in the same, same room, same city. although the, the, the last time we were in the same room, I was still trying to convince you to do a podcast called this, world according to Leno. So I

Lenno: That's true. Yeah.

Bren: don't know whether that, have you changed your mind on that? You don't fancy doing a spin-off with, with another one?

Lenno: The world according to Lena, it's no,

Bren: You

Lenno: find the naming in itself, I don't know if it's offensive or

Bren: it

Lenno: it's, I'm just lost for words around that one. I just cannot get around the, there shouldn't be anything, anything evolving around

Bren: Okay, well we'll keep that on the back burner.

Lenno: according to me. No, we can do the world according to Brendan. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bren: Well, I mean, it just doesn't sound as good, it? But we'll let the listeners decide. No, all jokes aside, I mean, was thinking back to being in the same room, which is actually where we're going to be in a few weeks. So very much looking forward to that.

Lenno: CXO is going to host another episode of the CDO conference.

Bren: This actually maybe a bit of a, you know, Andrew and Siobhan, we know that you're listening because you're up there with the millions of people around the world that are sort of tuning in every week. Can't wait to see all again. John, John England is the the AV chap and he does an amazing job. And basically I'm going to put him on the spot now and say, can we use your kit and can you help record it for us? Because we're only doing it through like flying by the seat of our pants. So come on, let's do let's do this properly. Let's see what we can do. I just, and I wonder whether we could kind of mull over a topic that I guess I've been thinking about recently and it all triggered from, so in December, have you ever heard of a company called Neko? Neko Health?

Lenno: No. No.

Bren: So it's one of those brands or companies where they just got a really cool brand. And it's the kind of business you think, I wish I'd made that. Now Neko Health, I think it's a Swedish based business. They're kind of targeting the healthcare industry. I had a checkup, I mean, was certainly a few hundred pounds, but they take a full scan of your body. They mole map, they do your heart rate. They do basically give you a bit of an MOT. all very technologically advanced and shiny and the doctor talks you through on a screen and you've got the touchpads and it's all very, very impressive. It did make me kind of, I mean, I love that sort of thing. So I said yes and then sort of thought about it afterwards. But do you think, like, how is AI gonna help kind of impact healthcare? I mean, of course, that's also a really big question, but yeah. It got me thinking, I was like, well, actually, I'll ask you on the podcast because it feels like something that we should touch on even if it leads into bigger conversations. But have you had any experience with AI and healthcare?

Lenno: You're catching me off guard there a bit, which is good because that's what you're extremely good at, raising

Bren: if

Lenno: the question and basically getting a response here. AI in healthcare, I think it's gonna help. Gonna help and probably also need it. I don't know how it works in the UK or any other country. Over here in the Netherlands, what I'm experiencing is that the healthcare employees are trending down, downwards. Whereas people requesting healthcare or in need of healthcare is trending up. And the upward trend of people needing healthcare is about the aging population.

Bren: Right. Okay.

Lenno: And the aging population, I think you and I mentioned that before as well, we live longer. But with that, also, we're getting a longer period of healthcare challenges. Not to mention problems with healthcare challenges, I would argue. With healthcare professionals trending down and... maybe one element to add, the cost of healthcare trending up. That's an economic driver,

Bren: Yep.

Lenno: which can spin off all kinds of questions with respect to affordability and so on. Automation and maybe AI can help us, robotization can help us in certain areas of healthcare. In our previous podcast, we also touched upon the impressions and engaging with a person,

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: how that person can make you feel. I still stand firmly by a robot, nor an AI can help me feel genuinely valued or engaged with what type of situation there may be. There's robotization in healthcare happening. For instance, people that need to stay in bed are maybe unresponsive to begin with and people need to be turnt. Rolled over, for instance. These things you can robotize, of course. Will that person be... experiencing that. I don't know. Therefore we probably should be asking a healthcare professional itself. But it may help in the downward trend of healthcare professionals automating certain steps.

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: Now if we take a step back from the physical interaction into the more diagnostic space. I think there in healthcare, there's a whole lot of information that needs to be analyzed, that needs to be connected with each other.

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: There's different professions, different specialist areas. Although the human body does tend to interact. when there's something happening in the brain, it may be having an effect on the lower abdomen. I'm just making this up and

Bren: Yep. Yep, yep, yep.

Lenno: vice versa. But there are specialists on every area of the body. even where that information between these specialists are not connected in the analysis, in the diagnosis, you may miss certain aspects of it. And in that area, at the moment, I am convinced that AI can help bridging that information gap and maybe connect the dots way sooner than we can in healthcare nowadays. I don't know, that's my thinking in a couple of minutes.

Bren: Yeah, and I think the thinking is sound. I forget the, I think it was at a different conference, but one of the keynotes that stood out was how AI was, and this would be a couple of years ago, how AI was being used in sort of radiography. So

Lenno: Mm-hmm.

Bren: looking at scans and that sort of thing. And so I'm sure it's got better in the few years since, or even better. Being able to do that first pass or do the reviews that would need a consultant to have a look at an image, to be able to kind of blast through a lot of those in a short period of time and highlight the ones that might need further looking at was really powerful. And it seemed like an obvious use case. If consultants are in demand and all doctors are in demand and tired, they might miss something or at least having that first pass is key. I think there's a lot of value and a lot of opportunities there. But as you say, the kind of the healthcare profession and even just, but it does make me when I'm thinking kind of slightly differently, it does make me question, would I want to just see an AI person than seeing a doctor? The answer would be no.

Lenno: My personal answer would be exactly the same. I do think that especially today, patients, and I consider myself then also as a patient, are or maybe more quote unquote educated before going into the physician's practice. I would already go on to the internet to explore. These are my symptoms. What can or may come out of it. I think also that that's well one is simply because the information is gradually available to me. I consider myself to a certain extent sort of digital savvy. Although a whole group of people may believe that I'm definitely not, which is which is totally fine. And I accept I accept that. So information is available, coming back to the point where healthcare professionals are declining as well in numbers. They now need to attend to a larger group of people as a population. I am wondering to what extent that is going to continue the trend. think especially in, well, not trying to single out any region across the globe, but especially in Europe after the mid 90s, 1950 or something, there's been an extreme birth rate happening. That population is now hitting 70 and above.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: So the demand in healthcare is quite significant. People going into pension schemas is trending up and therefore workforce is declining as well. So the healthcare professionals are equally aging just like in any other line of business. because people are aging that is starting to trend down and where another trends of that aging population is that the birth rates are declining as well. And

Bren: Okay.

Lenno: there's quantifiable data available today. And a colleague of mine also pointed out studies that have been performed by his son. Thanks, Phil, and the Djelgovic for that, by the way. Shout

Bren: Yeah, shout out, shout out.

Lenno: out, exactly. And when I looked at these studies, It's amazing what is happening because that is no longer Western Europe. This is happening globally. You see one of the biggest economies nowadays, if we turn the spot into Asia and China specifically, where there has been a staggering increase of population, that population is declining rapidly at this moment as well. Globally, most of the economies, you see a downward trend in birth rates. Now, background, I've understood, you're more in the financial industry. So from a financial and capitalist, capitalistic perspective, what does a company need? to succeed or to extend its life expectancy. I think this comes down to increasing of productivity, increasing of goods, increasing of consumption. It's all about increasing. How do we continue that increasing trends with a declining population?

Bren: Why didn't you ask an easy question?

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: I mean, for everybody listening, we had a quick chat beforehand and the data that you refer to that's been used is quite eye opening. I mean, certainly over in Asia, the numbers are declining at a more rapid rate than I would have ever perceived. But it did make me wonder because, as you say, how do you deliver value when you think, well, if there's people living longer, so they're gonna need more care and support. That's going to put more straight. mean, this is going to get into slightly governmental pieces, but isn't it? But you're going to need more support. You're going to need more growth. Companies need to deliver value and create revenues and give back and deliver that, deliver that growth. If people are, if there's less people arriving in the world, then I guess the older generations become a more prominent demographic. And How do we all support that? Certainly in the first world. I don't think it's a conversation that's been discussed really. I think the kind of the map of the world that you showed me where it changes. is something a bit like with AI taking jobs. I think we're probably aware of it sort of anecdotally, but probably end up with a, well, it's not gonna affect me too badly. So I'm not really that worried about it. And it is not the right. the right answer. I made, I just really quickly for anybody watching, I'm wearing a Grimsby town shirt, which ironically is the mix in between white and black because I realized every podcast we've done, I've either worn white or black. So I thought I'd mix them up today. But the reason for saying that is my granddad lived in Grimsby and thankfully wasn't around for COVID because he passed away when he was 97. His generation will need more support, they'll need the care that they deserve and that they need. But they will also kind of need to have kind of how do we help support them and do what we need to do with the companies that we've got? I'm not sure really looking at that. And so that's the reason that the value that's being created is how do we support them but not avoid what's needed to be done for the younger generations and obviously the younger generations. Gen Z are

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: challenging how we operate and you're looking at sort of re-evaluating their work-life balances and bringing different things to the table. So growth and value is very different. I'm finding myself kind of spinning my wheels a little bit as I'm talking, but there's a whole lot thrown into that.

Lenno: it.

Bren: healthcare is, it's integral, it? mean, that's, without it, we're gonna be in a bit of a pickle very, very quickly.

Lenno: I think so. And that's where we're humanizing things relatively quick because

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: it directly impacts your life ability. It's the joy that one can have as well. you've mentioned indeed the rethinking of also the work-life balance. People coming into the workforce right now tend to be much firmer on I'm working to earn an income to enjoy my life. Whereas years ago, working was a necessity, just like food and oxygen, to have any form of living. I think that that's probably one thing, like is happening on our podcast a lot, thinking out loud, is that this is a great evolution that our parents have enabled for us as well. That we can now think about and offset a bit in terms of I want to experience the good weather, I want to experience my family life, I want to experience the goodness with friends and therefore the engagement with people. instead of continuously focusing on earning a decent living so that I can provide for the people that is dependent upon me providing something.

Bren: Yeah, I think that the irony is, I'm probably contributing to that by virtue that my wife and I, don't have children.

Lenno: Mm-hmm.

Bren: know, the not having children means that we're obviously not adding to the birth rates. Fine. But then there's that gap. you know, I don't think, I think probably of our age, I'm becoming more more aware of of people who have actively chosen not to have children.

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: Overlaid, as you say, with the Gen Zs and younger, they're less inclined to have a job for life. That doesn't exist for them. They're happier to move. They're very clear around what they want and what they're asking

Lenno: Yep.

Bren: for can be quite different to what others believe should happen. And so this gap around delivering value, if we think about sort my parents' generation, parents' generation, get a job, work hard, keeping the job, deliver the value, provide for your families, you know, until it's your time. Whereas now

Lenno: Mm-hmm.

Bren: it feels like it's gone the other way. So I will actually, you know, having a good balance and what's important to me is just as important. Providing is less important if you don't have children, there's just two of you or one of you to look after. So that gap kind of gets a bit bigger. And on its own, doesn't feel like it makes that much of a difference. But when you look at the, I mean, the data kind of proved it, didn't it? The birth rates are declining. You're like, holy moly, this is.

Lenno: I was amazed when I saw that interactive chart indeed for

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: a period of 60 years and it forecasts how that trend is going to evolve in the coming couple of years. And you basically see the world population declining.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: And that's... contradicts a bit with the economic growth drivers

Bren: Mm.

Lenno: of increasing, increasing and increasing. Consumption needs to increase for the life expectancy or the extension of a company providing goods and services. So... where that birth trend indeed goes down, consumption will go down as well. What is going to happen economically to, well, companies? That is one thing. but equally also by shrinking the population and this seems to be a trend across the globe so it's not situational for a particular region. There's less people in the workforce so we kind of need to evolve in a higher degree of automation. a higher degree of AI adoption to continue in a or to continue or to remain in a position where there's relevancy. How can we accommodate the declining workforce in relation to still the delivery of product and service.

Bren: And I guess the big bets are, know, AI and technology will help cover that shortfall. And maybe, I mean, without asking to divulge any confidences, in your experience, do you think that executive and management teams are considering some of these bigger questions when they're setting their two, three, five year plans of what they're doing? Because I've got to guess. but be interested in it. that ever come up in, have you ever seen any of those bigger conversations come up in discussions?

Lenno: I've never had any conversation in my working life where we've been talking about the demographics of birth rates that is declining globally

Bren: Thanks.

Lenno: or within a particular region in itself.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: That's, and that might be illustrative for the type of companies that I've been working in. Of course, in food and beverage companies that I've been working in. We have been talking about how are we going to feed or provide food for 9-11 billion people across the globe with a declining physical territory to grow crops.

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: How can we manufacture, how can we produce that amount of food? more efficient, these type of questions definitely did come up and are being discussed in global economic forums and so on and so forth. This is talking about the increase of population, which at this moment in time, the population indeed is still a bit increasing. But then if you look at the models, for the coming 70 years, the birth rates are declining and therefore also the world population is shrinking. So

Bren: Yes.

Lenno: the topic may now need to start to pivot, not so much anymore about how can we provide for the growing population, but then looking into the forecast 30 years out, How are we continuing a quote and growth growth path where the population is declining?

Bren: It still relies on value growth, doesn't it? Because if the birth rate is declining, but people are living longer, is that net-net the same challenge we've still got to provide for people? Obviously, mean, we're not the World Economic Forum and I've never been to Davos, but there's some big questions. Maybe this is how we get invited to Davos.

Lenno: Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same, just that split second. Maybe this is the layoff for the invitation to the World Economic Forum.

Bren: When we stood next to ex presidents of different countries and talking about, we run a This Is Not A Data podcast. It'd be like, yeah,

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: it'll be a surreal moment. I think that as we've been talking, I've been thinking about it. And again, I'm both excited and slightly apprehensive about what the future holds because the apprehension around, and there's a good friend of mine. on holiday at the moment and it's very much into the sustainability world and I know this is something that we should talk about in a future episode but being able to provide crops and being able to grow food and be able to be sustainable is something that I think we're getting to a bit of a tipping point where we're almost going to go past the point in our return where we're not going to be able to provide for future generations. Like that is proper shit-your-pants-scary kind of stuff. On the other side when I think about technology and AI It could be really good for healthcare. I'm currently training for a 330 kilometer run in Cape Town in October. And when you're doing training or strength training or hiking or hockey or whatever it might be, if you could have AI monitor your biometrics, work out how you're feeling, adjust your workouts in real time based on real feedback so that you reduce injury. improve longevity. If that happens, kind of taking a PT and training and coaches and everything that happens, smushing it all together and being able to have a real, in real time, personalized agent bot something,

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: that would be really cool. That would be really cool. But conscious that they're on the very ends of the spectrum. I think where we're saying is that by not considering the really big questions, the smaller stuff won't necessarily be addressed. But also it's a bit like the, if you start with a solution and look for a problem, you're gonna go nowhere fast. So think it's, you kind of bring it back to the very beginning is healthcare is important. It's not gonna go anywhere. And I think it's gonna become more important as we look after each other as we age, because there's gonna be less people to look after us when we age.

Lenno: And it's super healthcare also super personal. So I genuinely see at philogies in connecting data and doing more with the data in an AI supported area. The data privacy and in combination with data security. is becoming a very instrumental topic there as well. As it is so personal. And the example that you've just mentioned, it would be extremely cool. Indeed, if and where based on the health tracker, maybe your watch or whatever that you're using in combination with what your intaking as food and beverage. Maybe I'm just making this up. You can use one of these nano bots or whatever that it may be that is sort of living and monitoring in your body how your body responds to certain intake of whatever that it is. And that in combination with your physical exercise, etc. may come to certain conclusions. How you need to offset your life, how you need to How will that advocate how you are going to live your life? That is a question that for me now pops up based on what I've just let out of my mouth. So would it take a little bit of the fun out of it? Coming back to where I started from, it needs to connect all kinds of data sets. You need to secure that one way or the other. What if someone makes negative advantage of their data hacking and fiddling

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: around with your healthcare data? How would it impact medicine that is being subscribed to you? You know, that for me is an area where I do have some concerns by connecting everything together. Despite the fact that it may very well be highly, highly powerful. and helpful in patient care as well. So I genuinely agree with you that there's, I think there's a lot of benefits and opportunities in healthcare by hyper automation, AI type of things.

Bren: Certainly the data privacy piece you've touched on and we should dive into it in a future episode because I think that's going to be that will become the next battleground and probably is from a cyber and technology perspective. What have you been talking about? I managed to find it yesterday as we begin to wrap up. So I mean, I've been on LinkedIn and I'm reasonably active and I came across a picture and it's taken from inside a hospital and it's a notice and it says Patients who have already received a diagnosis based on chat GPT are requested to seek a second opinion from Gemini, not from us.

Lenno: Yeah, yeah

Bren: I thought, mean, the post was hilarious. there's not many times where, I mean, you don't imagine hospitals to have that sort of of humor, but I thought that was, but it's very true, isn't it? People were happily go to chat GPT and be like, this is what it's told me. Well, just very quickly along those lines, it doesn't always get it right. Cause I was back in Jersey last weekend and I asked for a bit of a run around the island. And it gave us, sounded really, really good. And then my brother said, well, how do you start here and finish there? They're next to each other. And when we asked it, it said, no, the map of the island is geographically correct, but all the points in it are wrong. And you're like, what? So

Lenno: Yeah, what's the point?

Bren: not taking everything for granted is key, but I... You've really got the great matter going, I know, because I think that the healthcare conversation, I'd like us to dive into some of the security and the data

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: aspects and all sorts behind the scenes in a future episode. it's, I think it's one that we can't avoid is probably where I land.

Lenno: I agree.

Bren: With that, I was gonna say, mean, one day I'm gonna get you to do the intros and the outros, but for now, for everybody listening, for the millions around the world, please do like and subscribe, leave us a five star review. We'd love any review, but five star ones are our favorites. I'd say we'll send you a special gift, but no, we'll call you back next time around if you do, but. Leno, I'm really excited, but I've got to see you in a couple of weeks. This is tremendous.

Lenno: We will.

Bren: So to Andrew Siobhan and John, we'll see you in Crete, Leno, as ever. It's been a pleasure.

Lenno: Thank you very much, Bram. And I'll be seeing you next week again. Very good.

Bren: Sounds good. Thanks, everybody.