The Best Lessons Are The Most Painful Ones

Bren: Hello and welcome to another episode of this is not a data podcast. This one is a bit different because for the first time ever, Leno and I are actually in the same room. Out in Crete at the CXO data summit with proper studio kit instead of the usual laptops. Today we're talking about transformation, but really we're talking about people. Leno shares a story about an SAP program he ran early in his career. and we talk about the scars earned from getting it wrong. We also venture into an AI question as we ask if AI is quietly taking away the junior roles, who's got the experience to run the next transformation successfully? This is a good one, so let's get into it.

Podcast Wide: Hello and welcome to another episode of This Is Not A Daily Podcast, but you may already notice...

Brendan Ellis: Hello and welcome to another episode of This Is Not A Data Podcast. But you may already notice,

Podcast Wide: slightly different but before we get to that as ever i've got my good friend with me hey leather edgar thank you very much for the the layout really great people to be here in the first time i've got one with this and we now have stereo or studio like equipment this is amazing it's amazing isn't it i'm so for everybody listening around well this is the first time we've actually done it in person which is mad to think we've been doing it for

Brendan Ellis: slightly different. But before we get to that, as ever, I've got my good friend with me. Hey, Leno.

Podcast Lenno: Hey Bren, thank you very much for the the layup. really great to to be here in person sitting next to you. Yes. And and and and not only that, we now have stereo or or studio like equipment in front of us, which is amazing. It's amazing, isn't it? I'm so for everybody listening around the world. This is the first time we've actually done it in person, which is mad to think we've been doing it for what,

Brendan Ellis: How cool is this? This is... It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, for everybody listening around the world, this is the first time we've actually done it in person, which is mad to think we've been doing it for,

Podcast Wide: It's March this year, is crazy. Hopefully we'll get to do more. We've been talking about the two week activities, being in a room together, and set it up for maybe a week. This is what we the first time. We're stepping up into virtual content. We're bringing it to a team of four days together. It's amazing. We must also just say thank you to John and Inga.

Brendan Ellis: what, since March this year, which is crazy. And hopefully we'll get to do many more of these.

Podcast Lenno: since March this year, which it's crazy and hopefully we'll get to do many more of these. I think yeah, just just to touch upon that, we've been talking about people and people engagement, being in a room together, etc., for many, many weeks on this podcast. And this is actually the first time that we're stepping out of the virtual context and now bringing it into into a genuine recording together. So we we must also just say thank you to joining with

Brendan Ellis: You It's amazing. But we must also just say thank you to John England

Podcast Wide: helping us with the one-off access, because this is way accessible. have an axe with me. Thank you very much. So here we are. It's a bit of a track down. We're in the tree.

Brendan Ellis: for helping us with the wonderful setup because this is way in excess of what I have at home.

Podcast Lenno: helping us with the wonderful setup because this is way in excess of what I have at home. Excellent, excellent. Thank you very much, John. Yeah. So so here we are. You know, a bit a bit of a backbone. We're in Crete.

Brendan Ellis: So here we are, a bit of a background. We're in Crete. We've come to the glorious island. We're here at the CXO Data Summit, for anybody watching, this might give it away. So, I Andrew's not in the room anymore, but we'll give a shout out to he and Siobhan. We're here talking about data, but we want to talk about people. So, I guess where do we start? mean, we're talking about transformations.

Podcast Lenno: We've come to the glorious island. we're here at the CXI Data Summit, which you know for anybody watching this might give it away. so Melandre's not in the room anywhere, but we'll give a shout out to him Shimon. But we're here talking about data. Yeah. But we want to talk about PEEP. Yeah. So

Podcast Wide: We've come to the glorious island where the six are taking summit which, know, for anybody watching, this might give it away. So, I mean, Andrew's not in the room anymore. We're here talking about the few days, right? But we want to talk about people. I guess we're stuck. You know, we're talking about transformation and

Podcast Lenno: I guess where do we start? I mean we you know, we're talking about transformation and activities and how we don't get carried away with with confusing one for the other. I guess w yeah, where where do we where do we start? 'Cause we should really start with the people at the time, shouldn't we? No,

Brendan Ellis: and activities and how we don't get carried away with confusing one for the other. I guess, yeah, where do we start? Because we should really start with the people every time, shouldn't we?

Podcast Wide: activities and how we just get carried away with confusing one for the other.

Podcast Lenno: what yeah, one hundred percent. And equally also in this conference we're talking indeed about not only the data, the technology, but moreover indeed also about the people element to it. I think One of the segments that you've also touched upon is transformation. And one of the questions that also came up is what do we need to do or what do we need to stop in order to make transition or transformation actually happen? And that that made me think of that as well. So fortunately, this conference is indeed also adding a lot of thinking value to it. And I was like, we as individuals are

Podcast Wide: And one of the questions that also came up was what we need to do to allow the store in order to make transitions, or transitions we have. That made me think of everything that was book. So, fortunately, this conference was to me a lot of thinking and ability to so. And I was like...

Brendan Ellis: in order to make transition or transformation a key. made me think of that as well. So fortunately, conference is indeed also adding a lot of thinking and value to it. I like, we as individuals are

Podcast Wide: We as individuals are so much from the touchstone to the instance satisfaction that we're having in our day-to-day lives. we also live in this world with a life and mind and all of a sudden it seems to be so ridiculously

Podcast Lenno: so much grown accustomed to the instant satisfaction elements that that that we're having in our day-to-day lives. and equally also in the business context with AI coming in, all of a sudden it seems to be so

Brendan Ellis: so much grown accustomed to the instant satisfaction that we're having in our day-to-day lives. And also in the business context with AI, all of a sudden it seems to be so...

Podcast Lenno: r ridiculously easy to generate a new website, to generate a campaign, to generate and and bringing this in front of the leadership team,

Podcast Wide: easy to generate a new life cycle, to generate a kind of life, to generate a kind of Bringing this in front of music.

Brendan Ellis: to generate a new website, to generate a campaign, generate a map, bringing this in front of the leadership team.

Podcast Lenno: the anticipation.

Podcast Wide: is

Podcast Lenno: Is almost like what is the difficulty? We can scale this up very, very quickly. And so my thinking to that, and this is this is where I want to get to to people. We need to, I think, temporize and allow us the the runway to get to know what actually is the problem that people are experiencing. Interesting. And

Podcast Wide: almost like, what's the difficulty? We can scale this up very, very quickly. And so my thinking to that, and this is where I want to get to people, we need to, I think, temporalize and allow us to be in the run with that, to get to know what actually is the problem that people are facing. Interesting.

Brendan Ellis: almost like what's the difficulty? We can scale this up very very quickly. thinking to this and this is where I want to get to and allow us the runway to get to know what actually is the problem. Interesting.

Podcast Wide: That means that understanding the understanding the reality of the people of fire, and conform with it. And basically that's taking the next steps in terms of how are we going to bring in that solution. Excessive transformation, or a solution, whatever that is.

Podcast Lenno: That to me is about understanding the context, understanding the the reality that that that people are confronted with. And based on that, taking the next steps in terms of how are we then going to bring any type of solution? If this is a transformation or a solution, whatever that it may be.

Brendan Ellis: based on that taking the next steps in terms of.

Podcast Wide: So we... I think I said that when we think about transformation, for me the first thing that comes to mind is a journey. And it used to really grind one gear into it, like, wrongness transformation.

Brendan Ellis: So, taking a step back, when we think about transformation, for me, the first thing that comes to mind is a journey. And it used to really grind my gears. We'll be like, we're on this transformation. It's a bit of a journey. The journey never ends. You get transformation fatigue. You have to stand in front of the exec and they'll be like, why is it not done yet? We want it to automatically be done in the next seven days. You're like, my word. Do you think transformation gets used in the wrong context to begin with?

Podcast Wide: bit of a journey, the journey never ends, you get transformation to clean, have to stand in front of the exec and be like, why is it not done yet? Do want to automatically get done in the next seven days? Do you think transformation gets you from the wrong context to begin with, to start?

Brendan Ellis: to start with.

Podcast Wide: Yeah, I think the short answer to that is yes. I believe that's the way we do the work. We're usually doing the work transformation.

Podcast Lenno: Yeah, I believe I yeah. I I think the short answer to that is yes. I believe that so we're using the word or misusing the word transformation quite a bit. I think in effect what we tend to call transformation in my mind is a series of activities that are concatenated to together and then we're packaging that as sort of transformation. Yes.

Podcast Wide: that we tend to call transformation. In my mind, there's a series of activities that are concatenated together. And then we're packaging that as sort of transformation. I

Brendan Ellis: that as sort of transformation. Yes.

Podcast Lenno: I I I don't want to shoot this in a in in in in a too big of a negative spotlight at all. We do I I do believe that the intent is indeed to transform the organization, to transform the way that we're operating into something better. Yeah. However, and and and this is why I mean that it's a series in my mind, a series of activities where in my mind it goes off is that along the chance transformation journey, which indeed is difficult. Yeah.

Podcast Wide: don't want to this in a too big of a negative spotlight. I do believe that the intent.

Brendan Ellis: in a too big of a negative spotlight. I do believe that the intent is indeed to transform the organization, transform the way that we are operating into something better. However, and this is why I mean that it's a series, in my mind, series of activities where in my mind it goes off.

Podcast Wide: is to transform the organization, transform the way we operate into something better. However, this is why I made this series in my mind, and we are in my mind, of the long-term transformation during which need is difficult.

Brendan Ellis: journey which indeed is difficult.

Podcast Lenno: we are making split second decisions to quote unquote course collect. Yeah. in in within the context of what I'm confronted with today. And that may bring me into a very different trajectory than what I was aiming to get to with my transformation to begin with. Okay. So while saying this.

Podcast Wide: We are making certain decisions to unquote, force our act.

Brendan Ellis: We are making split-second decisions to quote-unquote course correct within the context of what I'm confronted with today and that may bring me into a very different trajectory

Podcast Wide: within the context of what I'm confronted with today. And that may bring me into a very different trajectory than what I was aiming to get to with my transformation to the given. So, while saying this,

Brendan Ellis: and then what I was aiming to get to with my transformation to begin. So, while saying this, I'm thinking about during a transformation journey, what I'd like to see maybe more is to re-baseline my current trajectory related back to the initial column stations and objectives. So constantly tying it back then? Sounds smart.

Podcast Lenno: I was thinking about during a transformation journey, what I'd like to see maybe more is to re-baseline my current trajectory related back to the initial product station.

Podcast Wide: I'm about during a transformation where I'm at. What I'd like to see maybe more is to re-base my current trajectory related with the initial problem statements and objectives. So constantly tying it back? Yes, that's right.

Brendan Ellis: Listen, I'm bought in. I'm sure everybody else is. So do you think, kind of tying it back then, and from a people side, do we not spend enough time on the people element of a transformation?

Podcast Wide: It's not brought in, I'm sure it'll be else's. So do you think, tying it back then, and from the people side, do we not spend enough time on the pig linemen of a transformation? To that question, it's been really interesting. I believe that we're spending too little time on one of the few projects, second or so, on the learning aspect itself. And applying the learnings of history. I believe that a lot of things that we're doing today have also been...

Podcast Lenno: I add yeah, to to that that that that question it's it's a bit of a leading question, because I I indeed believe that we're we're spending too little time on one the people aspect, second also on the learning aspect for itself. And applying the learnings of history, for instance. I believe that a lot of things that we're do today have also been

Brendan Ellis: and applying the learnings of history. I that a lot of things that we're doing today have also been tested

Podcast Lenno: Test it early. Yes. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think there's there's there's books full of lessons learned. But when are we actually reading lessons learned low register and applying that into our new program which were initiated?

Brendan Ellis: early. Yes, yeah, yeah, totally.

Podcast Wide: And I think there's books full of lessons learned. When are we actually reading the lessons learned in the registering and applying it into our new program or initiative?

Brendan Ellis: Thank for this important blog. Register.

Podcast Lenno: taking the people that do this on a constant basis aside. Use a lot of people that

Podcast Wide: Taking the people that do this on a constant basis aside, we need a lot of people that

Brendan Ellis: taking the people that do this on a constant basis aside, a lot of people that are

Podcast Lenno: are applying transformations or are driving change in an organization, have done this a couple of times and therefore they are capable of avoiding the bruising that they have experienced early.

Podcast Wide: are planning transformations or are driving change in our organization. And they are capable of avoiding the brewing that they experienced earlier.

Brendan Ellis: applying transformations or are driving change in an organization have done this a couple of times and therefore they are capable of avoiding the bruising that they have experienced earlier.

Podcast Lenno: Yeah. May maybe that says more about myself. I learn through experience. I learned through bruising. I learned cycling through falling down and bruising my knees. And and that that that allows me now to avoid the pothole and being

Podcast Wide: Maybe it says more about myself. I learned through experience, learned through grooving, learned cycling, through falling down and losing my knees. That allows me now to avoid...

Brendan Ellis: Maybe it says more about myself. I learn through experience. I learn through bruising. I learn cycling through falling down. That allows me now to avoid the bottle being...

Podcast Lenno: much more watchful of what I'm encountering.

Podcast Wide: And... radiating that or sharing that with others.

Podcast Lenno: radiating that or or sharing that with others.

Brendan Ellis: radiating that or sharing that with others. I think that's a difficult, more time-consuming element. And therefore I'd like to bring in the element of time that we need to spend with people.

Podcast Lenno: I think that that's a difficult, more time consuming element. And therefore I'd like to bring in the element of time we need to spend with people

Podcast Wide: I that's a difficult, more time consuming element. Therefore I'd to bring in the element of time. But we need to spend with people to

Podcast Lenno: to to educate or to allow also the experience of the bruiser.

Podcast Wide: educate or to allow also the experience of the groovy.

Brendan Ellis: educate or to allow also the experience of the bruising. I guess it kind of comes, no, no, I was just going to say, thinking, well, a first off, the first time you fall off a bike with cleats on, you don't forget that. I mean, you do feel very silly.

Podcast Wide: No, I was just going say, you're well, A, first off, the first time you fall off a bike with feets on, you don't forget that. I mean, you do feel fairly silly. Just quickly, I remember I rode up in the UK one time ago and I got to the end of the fifth day, the final day.

Brendan Ellis: Just quickly, remember I rode up the UK a long time ago and I got to the end of the fifth day and there were nine days. I was so tired, I stopped at a traffic light, couldn't get my feet out. I was in front of just a stop at a traffic light, just keeled over. Again, there's nothing you can do and you learn very quickly from that. But I think that the bruising aspect or the experiences that we have is actually what helps us learn.

Podcast Wide: was so tired I stopped in the truck and I couldn't get my feet out. in front of the truck and I just keeled over. Again, there's nothing you can do and you learn very quickly from that. But I think the bruising aspect of the experiences that we have is actually what helps us learn.

Brendan Ellis: I guess as a parent also, you can't protect your children too much. You need them to learn the hard lessons.

Podcast Wide: I guess as a parent also, you can't protect your children too much. need them to learn your hard lessons.

Brendan Ellis: And I think sometimes in business, we try and protect the business a bit too much so that we don't go through those painful experiences. But that's how we learn.

Podcast Wide: think sometimes in business we try and protect the business a bit too much so that we don't go through those painful experiences but that's how we learn. I think you're question on great sentiment, how many program managers or leadership positions have been fired based on a vulnerability in case of a growth?

Podcast Lenno: No, I I've I think you're touching on a great great sentiment there. You how many program managers or leadership positions have been fired based on a non-delivery in a certain program? Yeah.

Brendan Ellis: center.

Podcast Lenno: Now you could also translate that non-delivery between credits or I no, no, it's a it's legitimate non-delivery, but most likely when you're talking about not a million

Podcast Wide: Now, you could also translate that non-deliberative between the square, I know, it's a genuine non-deliberative, most likely. When you talk about million-million

Brendan Ellis: gentlemen.

Podcast Wide: euros or million dollars, a pound or a million, one has to be believed.

Podcast Lenno: Euros of investment or dollars or pounds or whatever monetized story that's my use. If you put that into the context of learning, that individual most likely is going to be your most valuable program manager ever. Yes. Of course. You don't need to give him or her applause and and and festivities because this person dropped the ball. Of course, you need to have the difficult conversation.

Podcast Wide: You can put that into context of learning. In the video, most likely, this can be your most valuable programming error. Of course, you don't need to give him or her applause and festivity because this person talked the ball. Of course, you need to have the difficult conversation.

Brendan Ellis: of learning, that individual, most likely, is going to be your most valuable program manager ever. Of course, you don't need to give him or her... and festivities because this person dropped the ball. Of course you need to have the difficult conversation.

Podcast Wide: But...

Podcast Lenno: But

Brendan Ellis: but or and if you put that person then back into a leadership position within the company, you should most likely and that's my, what is it, conviction?

Podcast Lenno: or and if you put that person then back into a leadership position within the company, you she will most likely and that and that's my what is it, conviction? Yeah,

Podcast Wide: And if you put that person back into a wheelchair position within the top of him, you see the most likely, and that's my conviction, my belief, that that person will be your most valuable asset in the company. You see the nearer-advance step of death rather than again. I think it's also a thing with...

Podcast Lenno: my my belief that that person will be your one of your most valuable assets in the content because you she will never ever step into that rabbit hole again.

Brendan Ellis: you step into death's rabbit hole again. Yeah, yeah. I think it's also up there with... When I think about behaviour change, which is really where my mind goes when we think about transformation and with people, in that example, the programme manager that's been through the war, proverbial war, had got those battle scars. He or she will really be able to tell you where those potholes are.

Podcast Wide: I think about behaviour change, which is really where my mind goes when I think about transformation and the people. In that example, the programme manager that's been through the war, at Probera war, I've got the butter scars. He or she will really be able to tell you where those hot holes are. Now from a behaviour change perspective, I think culture is defined by behaviours and behaviours are defined by how people act and who they're looking.

Brendan Ellis: Now from a behavior change perspective, think culture is defined by behaviors and behaviors are defined by how people act when nobody's looking. But you pull on that thread and it's easier to move somebody away from pain than is towards pleasure. So if you imagine that you've got a program manager who is dealing on a whatever the size of the transformation is, he or she says, whatever we do, we need to make sure that we don't get this bit wrong. Is that not where the value lies? Based on experience, I would argue yes.

Podcast Wide: But you pull on that thread and it's easy to move somebody away from pain that is towards pleasure. So if you imagine that you've got a program manager who is dealing with whatever size of transformation it is, he or she says, whatever we do, we need to make sure that we don't get this bit wrong. Is that not where the finding part is?

Podcast Lenno: based on experience, I would argue yes. Okay.

Podcast Wide: Based on experience, I argue yes.

Podcast Lenno: And and just just rewinding the clock a little bit. And this is this is in my early days in my career, when I first stepped into a data leadership. Yeah. I didn't know anything about data to be deep. I didn't have any form of experience in the data structures in an SUP landscape.

Podcast Wide: Just rewind and talk a little bit. This is in my early days when I first stepped into data research. I didn't know anything about data. I didn't have any form of experience in the data structures in Azure Google Apps.

Brendan Ellis: I didn't know anything. data structures in SAP landscape.

Podcast Wide: You come from a technical background? I'm a business administration, so no.

Brendan Ellis: Do you come from a technical background? I'm a business administration, no.

Podcast Lenno: I'm a business administration, so okay.

Podcast Wide: Not so much, no. I grew into this. This is where my experience in Gizmo comes from. So I stepped into this because I thought I'll be able to get this done. I got promoted into

Brendan Ellis: Not so much, no. I grew into this. And this is where my experience in Gizmo comes from, bear with me. So I stepped into this, because I thought I'll be able to get this done. So I got promoted into

Podcast Lenno: no. Okay. No, I I grew into Ease. Okay. And but this this is where my experience Gizmo comes from. So bear with me for six months. So I stepped into these because I thought, you know, I'll be able to to get this get this done. So I got promoted into

Podcast Wide: manager role of a master in a

Podcast Lenno: the manager role of a master data management facility.

Brendan Ellis: role of a master data management facility and equally also lucky means

Podcast Lenno: And equally also, lucky me, that came hand in hand with an SAP transformation program. So okay. I also became the data lead in that

Podcast Wide: that came hand in hand with an editing and translation program. So, okay. I also became a bit of a...

Brendan Ellis: that came hand in hand with an SAP translation program. So I also became the data lead.

Podcast Lenno: in that particular program. Exciting stuff. I get I didn't have any experience. I thought this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I will go for it. Yeah. And I will make this success. Now of course I didn't have the experience. I didn't know what to look for. Yeah. I leaned completely towards the implementation partner, which is on me.

Brendan Ellis: exciting stuff.

Podcast Wide: I didn't have any experience. thought this is the one I could do. I will go for it. I will make it successful. Of course, I didn't have any experience. I didn't know what to do. I leaned completely towards the implementation part. Which is only me.

Brendan Ellis: I didn't know what to look for. I leaned completely towards the implementation partner, which is on me, not on the implementation partner.

Podcast Lenno: not on the implementation of Arkner,

Podcast Wide: Not only the implementation part.

Podcast Lenno: it's I would argue that's the lack that has been the lack of my experience. Basically I was

Podcast Wide: I would argue that's the lack of my experience. Basically, I was...

Brendan Ellis: That's the- Basically,

Podcast Wide: unknowingly in core components in that field. It's taken quite some years to just elaborate on this. anyways, that program at some point needed to be core-to-req. The data wasn't fit for purpose, all of these references, the cleaning, cetera. Of course, it didn't matter.

Podcast Lenno: unknowingly incompetent in that in that field. Yeah. Whew. It's taken taking quite some years to just endeavor it in my on on on this. So anyways, that that that program at some point needed to be course directed.

Brendan Ellis: I unknowingly incompetent in that field. It's taken quite some years to just elaborate on this. So anyways, that program at some point needed to be course-directed. The data wasn't fit for purpose, all of the lists, the references, the cleaning, et cetera. Of course, that didn't happen.

Podcast Lenno: The data wasn't fit for purpose, all of the lists, the references, the the cleaning, etcetera. Of course that you did have. I was going, what happened? Why would she that's sorry. That that that that's my role. Yeah. I needed to do it. Yeah. I was not capable of raising the the essential questions when they needed to be asked or challenged. What needed to be challenged.

Brendan Ellis: That's my role. I needed to do it. I was not capable of raising the essential questions when they needed to be asked or challenged. What needed to be challenged.

Podcast Wide: That's my role. I needed to do it. I was not capable of raising the essential questions when they needed to be asked. The challenge, what needed to be challenged.

Brendan Ellis: That's now getting into experience. once that program, and ultimately it finished correctly with a minor delay, I said I will never ever do that again.

Podcast Wide: That's now getting into it. So once that program ultimately finished correctly with a mind wheel.

Podcast Lenno: That's now getting into experience. So once that program, and ultimately it's it finished correctly with a mind lay. I said I will never ever do that again.

Podcast Wide: I said I will never ever do that again.

Podcast Lenno: I've invested so much course course correction and time at personal expense, but what I did is then starting to pull together all CXL spreadsheets and and collecting that data, cleaning everything, etc. So that was my process of

Brendan Ellis: I've invested so much course correction time and personal experience. what I did is then starting to pull together all six spreadsheets and collecting that data, cleaning everything, et cetera. So that was my process of gathering the battle scars. But after it, I said, I will never

Podcast Wide: I've invested so much for post-production and I've put my experience. What I did was I had to go to all the extra spreadsheets and put in the data, I do everything. So this is my process of gathering the battle stars. But after this, I said I will never

Podcast Lenno: Of gathering the battle scars. Yeah. But after it I said, I will never ever do this again. And then I sat down with my file. Okay. Well, why wouldn't you do this? Because now you know what to look for. So no. This is too painful. This is way too painful. So of course I left the company. because also the climate was kinda like, you know, you dropped the ball in that in that particular domain, rightfully so. So

Brendan Ellis: ever do this again. And then I sat down with my father. And he said, well, why wouldn't you do this? Because now you know what to look for.

Podcast Wide: I was the of with my father. said, why wouldn't you do this? Because now you know what you look for. It's too painful. This is the way you can do it. So, of course I left the company. Because the climate was kind of like, you drop the ball in that particular domain.

Brendan Ellis: So, of course I left the company because the climate was kind of like, you drop the ball in that particular domain. Rightfully so. It

Podcast Lenno: I'm not with it. It it felt uncomfortable for me. Of course, also I was a bit ashamed and then I got into new company, great environment, and did something else and at some point reorganized my department, took out my own role. Okay. I was roll less. Yeah. And then got another opportunity to run as a data leader, another SUP transformation, but then bigger scale, etc.

Podcast Wide: It felt uncomfortable for me. Of course also I was a bit ashamed.

Brendan Ellis: felt uncomfortable for me. Of course also I was bit ashamed. Then I got into a new company, great environment, did something else and at some point reorganized.

Podcast Wide: Then I got into new company, a great environment, I did something else, and at some point reorganized my department, took out my own role, so I would grow less. And then I got another opportunity to run as a data leader, another SAP technician, but then I didn't fail at

Brendan Ellis: my department took out my own role. I was role-less. And then got another opportunity to run as a data leader another SAP transfer.

Podcast Wide: it, because everyone was paying for it, but I didn't buy it, and I knew what to look for.

Podcast Lenno: Okay. That one went pain free on time within budget and I knew what to look for. So

Brendan Ellis: That one went pain free on time, within budget, and I knew what to look for. So

Podcast Lenno: transformation, experience, and battle scars I think are essential for rough.

Brendan Ellis: transformation, experience.

Podcast Wide: Transformation, experience, and battle for ours, I think, are essential for graphic.

Brendan Ellis: think are essential for growth. Totally. this is where, I mean, A, the journey that we both come on is quite similar. I'm an accountant by trade, and I fell into the data space, ended up working for a construction consultancy, but also got my battle scars of having stood in front of the boards to pitch for a data lake that went catastrophically badly. But you learn more from when it goes badly than you do when it goes well.

Podcast Wide: mean A, the journey that we both come on is quite similar in I chatted with Trillium, I fell into the data space and I worked with the construction consultancy but also got my battle scars in the morning, stood in front of the boards to pitch with a data lake that went catastrophically badly. But you learn more from when it goes badly than you do when it goes well. But I think as we get to where we are now, it's easier for a business or a transformation project to say we've got a system in, we've got it on, we've turned it on, it's life. It doesn't mean it's a success. And that's where I think we can learn from the people side because behavior change is hard. If I was being really flippant, we don't have a data problem, we've got a people problem.

Brendan Ellis: But I think as we get to where we are now, it's easier for a business, for a transformation project to say, we've got a system in, we've got it on, we turned it on, it's live. Doesn't mean it's a success. And that's where I think that we can learn from the people side because behavior change is hard. if I was being really flippant, I'd say we don't have a data problem, we've got a people problem.

Podcast Lenno: Yeah. We we we do have a people problem

Podcast Wide: We do have a people problem.

Podcast Lenno: and especially the adoption of chains, yeah. I think is equally under under if undervaluated, yeah, to say the least. there's a lot of people that stand up all at the moment of going live, and we've decided we are going live. Everybody applauds, there's cakes and there's grapes, and so on. Yeah, and so.

Podcast Wide: especially the production of changes. think it's deeply undervalued process.

Brendan Ellis: change. think it's equally There's lot of people that stand up all at the moment of going live. We've decided we are going live. Everybody applauds, there's cakes, there's grapes and so on. Confetti canyons. Yeah,

Podcast Wide: There's a lot of people that are off at the moment of going live. We sell it, we are going live. Everybody wants their cakes, their grapes, and so on. Contest the canyons. Yeah, so every

Brendan Ellis: every Indian confetti canyons. Red carpets and so and so forth. But the real adoption...

Podcast Lenno: Every indeed, processic Kenya, yeah, and and and and and and red cartridge and so on and so forth. Yep. And but the real adoption and

Podcast Wide: indie wants contest the canyons. Red carpets and so on and forth. The real adoption and embracing of canyons is actually happening a month after. This is when you're...

Podcast Lenno: embracement of chains is actually happening in the months after. This is when your

Brendan Ellis: This is when...

Podcast Wide: Transformation between apples is going to be life. Whether or not people is actually for that thing. Using the right way, it could easily kill a vision. I've been in situation where the warehouse physically was packed, de-roofed. Every position was done, but the system was telling us that there is no end in the world.

Brendan Ellis: transformation between air quotes is turning to

Podcast Lenno: Transformation between aircraft is turning to life, whether or not people is actually adopting it, using it in the right way, and you could easily kill the business. I've been in situations where the warehouse physically was packed to the roof. Yeah. Everything every position was done. But the system was telling us that there is no inventory.

Brendan Ellis: I've been in situations where the warehouse physically was packed to the roof. Every position was The system was telling us that there is no inventory.

Podcast Lenno: What was happening? The operators were just taking the pellets away.

Brendan Ellis: What was happening, the operators were just taking the pallets away,

Podcast Wide: was happening, the operators were just taking the ballots away, putting them in the warehouse, didn't register anything. It's a beautiful moment. Another company went almost out of business because the suppliers didn't get paid. What happened, the individual was having a box.

Podcast Lenno: Putting them in the warehouse didn't register anything. Yeah. That's a human component. Yeah. It's mad, isn't it? Another company went almost out of business because the suppliers didn't get paid. What happened? An individual was having a a a box

Brendan Ellis: putting them in the warehouse, didn't register anything. It's a human component. It's mad, isn't it? Another company went almost out of business because the suppliers didn't get paid. What happened, an individual was having a box.

Podcast Lenno: where sheets of paper were piling up day after day after day after day. Yeah. She didn't know what to do with it. So she didn't do anything with it.

Podcast Wide: where sheets of paper were piling up day after day after day after day. She didn't know what to do with it. So she didn't do anything with it.

Brendan Ellis: where sheets of paper were piling up day after day after day after He didn't do anything with it.

Podcast Lenno: Well, turns out these were actually purchase orders that need to be registered. No. No.

Brendan Ellis: It turns out these were actually purchase orders that needed to be registered. No.

Podcast Wide: But turns out these were actually purchased orders that needed to be registered. And of course the utility company was saying at some point, like, we're not going to supply the to them, we're going to do it together. But it definitely was a people man.

Podcast Lenno: And and and of course the utility company was saying at some point, like, we're not going to to to to supply you with the utilities again. Yeah. So it's it definitely is a people factor.

Brendan Ellis: Of course the utility company was saying at some point, like, we're not going to supply you with the utilities again. So it definitely is a people thing.

Podcast Wide: I'm guessing people this simple would also have their own war stories. The one that to dove to an internet is a member being part of a CRM system that was implemented, as we said, implemented pretty well.

Brendan Ellis: I'm guessing people listening will also have their own kind of war stories. mean the one to dovetail into that is I remember being part of a CRM system that was implemented, and to be fair it was implemented pretty well.

Podcast Wide: But when it was turned on and handed over to the pilot business that owned it, data became really stale really quickly. Because it was the expectation of this NMP, not my plane. Well, I mean, unfortunately, a capital issue or problem.

Brendan Ellis: But when it was turned on and handed over to the part of the business that was going to own it, data became really stale really quickly because there was the expectation, it's NMP, not my problem. Well, I mean, unfortunately, but a cup of is your problem. And all of a sudden, three months down the line, there was this whole other data is in there is really crap. You know, the system doesn't do what we need to do. The irony is it did do what we need to do. And this is where I don't also want to just pick on the people because

Podcast Wide: And all of a sudden, three months down the line, there was this whole other data system that was a crap, the system doesn't know what need to do. We don't need to do what we need to do. And this is why I don't also want to just pick on people, because people can do great things. And I don't think sometimes as data leaders or technology leaders that we invest enough time and training in educating people. I forget where it came from, but somebody said, need to tell somebody seven times.

Brendan Ellis: People can do great things. And I don't think sometimes as data leaders or technology leaders that we invest enough time and training in educating people. I forget where it came from, but somebody said, you need to tell somebody seven times before they remember the message. Now, I've definitely got it wrong in my career. But you can see how data leaders, especially, we give this big fanfare. We say, this is what we're doing. One and done.

Podcast Wide: for them to remember the message. Now I've definitely got a wrong microwave, but you can see how DataLegals especially, we give this big fanfare, say this is what we're doing, one of them.

Brendan Ellis: Yeah, yeah. And then we get really pissed off why people aren't remembering and doing what we need to do.

Podcast Wide: And then we get the stuff why people are remembering and doing what we need to do.

Brendan Ellis: And it's like, OK, if you don't reiterate the message and almost over communicate, then other people are not going to remember it as well. And I think that's where we as leaders need to lean into that. Because I guess another anecdote is I remember working and doing a bit of work up in Scotland for a construction company. And we did this report. We did this piece of work and it was a report.

Podcast Wide: you don't reiterate the message and almost overcomplicate then other people will not remember it well. I think that's where we as leaders need to lean into that because, another anecdote, I remember working and doing a bit of work up in Scotland for constructing the building. We did this piece of work and it was a report

Brendan Ellis: And all of a sudden we delivered it

Podcast Wide: and all of sudden we delivered it.

Brendan Ellis: and I looked across this room of quantity surveyors, eyes glazed over, totally lost the room. Why? Because I delivered consultant management speak that they just did not like or care of. So we went back, it was a really painful process, rewrote it, put it in their language and then spent time with them over the course of the next two or three weeks just talking through.

Podcast Wide: And I looked across this room of quantity survivors. I said, totally lost the room. Why? Because I delivered consultant management speak that they just did not like or care. So we went back, we did a paper process, rewrote it, put it in their language, and then spent time with them over the course of the next two to three weeks, just talking through,

Brendan Ellis: educating, talking through. By the end of it, it was great.

Podcast Wide: educating, talking through. But in the end, it was great.

Brendan Ellis: But not only did one and done not work, you've got to talk the right language for somebody to go, A, I get it, and B, okay, now I need to care.

Podcast Wide: But not only did one of them not work, you've got to talk the right language for somebody to go A, I get it, and B, okay, now I need to care.

Podcast Lenno: I agree. And if if if you put that into context of what AI seems to be bringing to us right now and especially also the the major consultancy firms as it what is what what I find interesting that is happening now

Podcast Wide: I agree. If you put that into context of AI seems to be doing it to us right now, and especially also the medicals on the seafloor, what I find interesting is happening now.

Brendan Ellis: I it interesting.

Podcast Lenno: or that seems to be happening is that the whole junior staff of the organizations is actually not recruited right now.

Podcast Wide: It to me that the whole junior staff of the organisations is actually not included right

Brendan Ellis: the organizations is actually not recruited right

Podcast Wide: now. So there's a whole group demographic of people that currently is not getting the wrong way to gain the votes. I'm usually better than them. It's something that really bothers me.

Podcast Lenno: So there's a whole group demographic of of of people that currently is not getting the runway to gain the battle scars. How how how do you feel about it?

Brendan Ellis: now. So there's a whole group demographic of people. It's something that really bothers me

Podcast Wide: And a little bit of background is that I just handed in my dissertation for my master's. And the reason for so much is it's on certain leadership in Gen Z and the post pandemic workplace. Now, this is all about how do we as leaders best support our people, in this case, Gen Z. I have to say Gen Z because Gen Z just sounds weird. But they often learn and

Brendan Ellis: and a little bit of background is that I've just handed in my dissertation for my masters and the reason for saying that is it's on servant leadership and Gen Z in the post-pandemic workplace. Now this is all around how do we as leaders best support our people, in this case Gen Z, I have to say Gen Z because Gen Z just sounds weird, but they often learn and communicate behind screens.

Podcast Wide: communicate behind screens.

Brendan Ellis: But the wonderful thing about what we're doing is we're actually in the same room having a conversation face to face, and this is where I think relationships are built. So how do we, as leaders, help the younger generations learn, which used to be, I'm sure we used to sit by osmosis, sit next to somebody, understand if that's not happening.

Podcast Wide: But the wonderful thing about what we're doing is we're actually in the same room having a conversation face to face and this is what I think relationships are built. So how do we as leaders help the younger generations learn, which used to be, I'm sure we used to like I was most, just sit next to somebody, understand if that's not happening. They're feeling a bit out of their mind. AI is going to take over the world and remove jobs of all sorts.

Brendan Ellis: they're feeling a bit hard done by. AI is going to take over the world and remove jobs and all sorts. I feel a bit sorry for them because we've just said, NMP, not my problem. It is our problem. But if we're not careful, they'll be so disenfranchised and miss that learning gap. Yeah, I think it's going to make life really difficult for us.

Podcast Wide: a bit sorry for them because we just said, and then she got my problem. It is our problem. But if we're not careful, they'll be so disinterested and mess that learning up. Yeah, I think it's gonna make life really difficult for us.

Podcast Lenno: Yeah, for for all of us because it is not only their generation I think there is going to be limited in the experiences. Yeah.

Podcast Wide: For all of us, it's not only the generational, but it's going to be limited in the experiences. Exactly. Also, you are going to be less efficient and effective in

Brendan Ellis: Yeah.

Podcast Wide: your work. Well how does a junior engineer become a senior engineer?

Brendan Ellis: Well, how does a junior engineer become a senior engineer?

Podcast Wide: Well precisely that. You will have a physician that operates on you only 20 years and now I'm at the age of 40. I need to think about this. Who got his PhD master's degree on...

Podcast Lenno: Precisely div. Yeah. Yeah. You will have a physician that should operate on me in twenty years because I'm now at a t port that I need to think about div. Yeah. Who got his Ph dingy master's degree on

Brendan Ellis: Yeah.

Podcast Wide: Shit! I mean that's terrifying to think about. But it's probably going to happen.

Brendan Ellis: Imagine, I mean that's terrifying to think about it. But it's probably going to happen.

Podcast Wide: It's tangentially just when you think, have you had this? We're talking about people in the younger generation. I got on a plane not so long ago, and I looked left with the cockpit and I was like, they look different. And I was like, that makes me sound old now. So you know what, I mean, this is a whole different ballgame. was like, I think the bit that

Brendan Ellis: Tangentially you just make me think, have you had this? We're talking about people in the younger generations. I got on a plane not so long ago and I looked left into the cockpit and I was like, they look young. I was like, that makes me sound old now. So you know what? I mean, this is a whole different ball game. was like, I think that the bit that... So if I keep coming back to, is that gap of learning is going to get bigger if we're not careful.

Podcast Wide: I keep coming back to is that gap of learning is going to get bigger if we're not careful.

Brendan Ellis: We as data leaders have the opportunity to influence careers. And you can get down the rabbit hole of remote working, hybrid working, being in the office. And I think I know you're in favor of one over the other. And it's like, well, if we don't get this right, for me, is an output.

Podcast Wide: We as data leaders have the opportunity to influence careers. Exactly. And you can get down the rabbit hole of remote working, hybrid work, doing office. I think you're in favour of one or the other. So if we don't get this right, for me data is now people bring it to life and they say when I'm doing the right people, I'm the right things.

Brendan Ellis: but people bring it to life and it's around getting the right people in the right place doing the right things. It's a good tagline, isn't it? But I think it's from a data perspective, we get so caught up in the domains, the frameworks, the technologies, turning the systems on, the quality is really poor. Everything is just very, you know, people process product and

Podcast Wide: a good tagline. is. We need to finish now. But I think it's from a data perspective we get so caught up in the domains, the frameworks, the technologies, turning the systems on, the qualities really for everything is just very, you know, people process product and

Podcast Lenno: It is. It is. Yeah, we need to finish now. But I I think it's it from a data perspective, we get so caught up in the the domains, the frameworks, the technologies, turning systems on, the the quality's really poor. everything is just very s you know, people process product and data or whatever the things are.

Brendan Ellis: data or whatever the things are.

Podcast Wide: data, whatever the things are. It's a people thing.

Brendan Ellis: to people thing.

Podcast Lenno: people thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's it it definitely definitely

Podcast Wide: Yeah, definitely is

Podcast Lenno: is a is a people thing and I think in

Podcast Wide: a beautiful thing, I think.

Podcast Lenno: in in in the data domain we need to overcommunicate the phrasing that

Podcast Wide: of the community, the phrase of the community.

Podcast Lenno: needs to be used is is is to be less technical in nature and it requires a bit of an additional skill to skill or or or touch point

Podcast Wide: use this less technical termination. And it requires a bit of skill.

Brendan Ellis: Hmm.

Podcast Lenno: to

Podcast Wide: get into a more sympathetic conversation with the people that you want to persuade your way? I guess there's two parts, as I think about it. We're having a conversation that is not new.

Brendan Ellis: get into a more sympathetic conversation with the people that you want to persuade your way? I guess there's two parts as I think about it. We're having a conversation that is not new.

Podcast Lenno: get into a more sympathetic conversation with the people that you want to persuade your way. It's I guess there's there's there's two parts is as I think about it. The we're having a conversation that is not new. And there's an argument you could say that we've been having it for well, you and I have been having it in March, but I mean it it's probably a a decade or I mean you think back to

Brendan Ellis: mean, there's an argument that you could say that we've been having it for, well, you and I have been having it since March, but...

Podcast Wide: There's an argument that you could say that we've been having it for, well you and I have been having it since March, but I don't mean... It's probably a decade or, I mean, you think back to

Brendan Ellis: It's probably a decade. I mean, if you think back to big data and databases and I'm getting way over my skis now, but you know, way back when there was a people element to it, we maybe just didn't acknowledge it as much. But being an optimist, I do think we can solve it. I do think we can make positive change. And this is really exciting, but it's also quite a hard nut to crack.

Podcast Wide: big data and databases and I'll get away with my speech now, but you know, way back when there was a people-end-to-it, we just didn't acknowledge it too much. But being an optimist, I do think we can solve it. I do think we can make positive change. And this is really exciting.

Podcast Lenno: big data and databases and I'm getting way over my skies now, but you know, way back when there was a people element to it, we maybe just didn't acknowledge it as much. But being an optimist, I do think we can solve it. I do think we can make positive change. And this is really exciting. But it's also quite a hard nut to crack.

Podcast Wide: But it's also quite a hard nut to crack.

Podcast Lenno: No, but that's why we need to continue to talk about it. Yeah. D do you do you think before we close out, do you think it's a

Podcast Wide: That's why we need to compete to talk about it. Do you think, before we close out, do think it's a... Do think we as data leaders or the data leadership community, do think we're having these conversations enough about people? Because I know that you and I talk about it regularly, but are we... Is it conversations that others are having as well? I'm noticing quite a difference.

Brendan Ellis: Yeah. you think, before we close out, do you think it's a, do think we as data leaders or the data leadership community, do you think we're having these conversations enough about people? Cause I know that you and I talk about it regularly, are we, is it conversations that others are having as well, do you think?

Podcast Lenno: Do you think we as data leaders or the data leadership community, do you think we're having these conversations enough about people? Because I know that you and I talk about it regularly, but are we is it conversations that others are having as well? I'm noticing quite a different trend nowadays in

Brendan Ellis: Hmm.

Podcast Lenno: comparison to a couple of years a couple of years ago. A couple of years ago it was all technology, all platforms, all technology that

Podcast Wide: It doesn't take probably years to say, probably a year. A couple years ago, was all technology. All platforms. All technology.

Podcast Lenno: needed to be pushed out there. we had our frameworks and so on.

Podcast Wide: frameworks and so on. It was no speaking for the people and the Chinese.

Podcast Lenno: was no speaking of the people and the change and the communications

Brendan Ellis: no speech

Podcast Lenno: and how do you take take people with you.

Podcast Wide: you

Podcast Lenno: and that's it it's it's I think the most difficult exercise to to do. but it's also the most rewarding the moment it's out of a group of ten, you can at least appeal to one or two. Yeah. And

Podcast Wide: that's, I think, the most difficult exercise to do. It's also the most rewarding, the amount of it's outer roof of 10 is going to increase at least PN2102. And

Brendan Ellis: I that's the most difficult exercise to do. It's also the most rewarding the moment it's out of a group of ten you can at least appeal to one or two. And

Podcast Wide: I have a personal belief that starting with that, making sure that the foundation is laid in very, very deeply and carefully. I think that's where I'll start to then...

Brendan Ellis: I have a personal belief that starting with that, making sure that that foundation is laid in very,

Podcast Lenno: I have a personal belief that starting starting with that, making sure that that foundation is is laid in very, very good and carefully, I think that's will start to then

Brendan Ellis: that will start to then negatively an oil stain. But as an analogy, it will flow and also take, convince many others. Do you think, is there anything that we could start to action tomorrow? I mean, proverbially tomorrow, but is it as simple as talking to the teams or talking to our exec or?

Podcast Lenno: negatively an oil stain, but as an analogy, it it it it will flow and also take convince maybe others. Do you think is there anything that we could start to action t tomorrow? I I mean pr for preverbia tomorrow, but

Podcast Wide: negatively in oil scene, as an analogy it will flow and possibly convince me of it. Do you think, is there anything that we could start to action tomorrow? mean, for the public tomorrow, but is it as simple as talking to the teams or talking to our exec?

Podcast Lenno: Is it is as simple as talking to the teams or talking to our exec?

Brendan Ellis: How would you suggest that somebody starts the people conversation in the data world?

Podcast Lenno: How would you suggest that somebody starts the the people conversation in the data world?

Podcast Wide: How would you suggest that somebody starts the people conversation in the data

Podcast Lenno: Yeah, I think coming coming back to where we started this this this episode as well. I think we need to invest

Podcast Wide: world?

Podcast Lenno: more time and therefore temporize a little bit of our drive or strive to deliver a solution today. Yeah.

Podcast Wide: to a little bit of drive or strive to deliver a solution today. So

Brendan Ellis: solution today.

Podcast Wide: to that I would say we need to be a little bit slower than the height here.

Podcast Lenno: so to that I would say that we need to to pace a little bit slower than the high gears that we're

Brendan Ellis: Let's say that we need to to paste.

Podcast Lenno: operating in on a continuum. I think just to dovetail into that, you know, I I think we need to treat everybody as individuals. There's I mean to shout out to to Peter Lafflin and the work that he's doing. Yeah. So for anybody listening, please

Brendan Ellis: I think just to dove-tell into that, I think we need to treat everybody as individuals. There's a, I mean to shout out to Peter Laflin and the work that he's doing. So to anybody listening, please

Podcast Wide: think just to jump into that, I think we need to treat everybody as individuals. There's a, I mean to shout out to Peter Latham and the work that he's doing. So to anybody listening, please check

Brendan Ellis: check him out. I think a podcast is coming out reasonably soon, or I might have that completely wrong, wonderful work and you should definitely listen to it. I think understanding that everybody is individual and finding out how best each other's work is key.

Podcast Lenno: Check him out. I a podcast is coming out reasonably soon, or I might have that completely wrong, but wonderful work and you should definitely listen to it. I think understanding that everybody is individual and finding out how best each other's work is is key.

Podcast Wide: him out. I a podcast is coming out reasonably soon, I might have that completely wrong, but wonderful work and you should definitely listen to it. I think understanding that everybody is individual and finding out how best each other's work is key.

Podcast Lenno: You know, I I just thinking back to when I looked after data teams,

Brendan Ellis: I just thinking back to when I looked after data teams,

Podcast Wide: I just think in fact, so when I looked at David's work,

Podcast Lenno: there were some engineers, brilliant engineers, who if they never spoke to anybody, be the happy people alive. Yep. They'd be at home.

Podcast Wide: There were some engineers, brilliant engineers, if they never spoke to an engineer you'd be the happiest people alive. They'd be at home

Brendan Ellis: there were some engineers, brilliant engineers, who if they never spoke to anybody, they'd be happy to be people alive. They'd be at home with the gaming chairs and the nine screens and the headphones and the work that came out was phenomenal. But when you asked them to come into the office, they just freaked out. It was just like this was really painful to watch, but you have to adhere to all the HR policies and stuff. So I think there's a real push and pull between

Podcast Wide: with the gaming chairs and the nine screens and the headphones and the work that came out was phenomenal. But when you're asked to come into the office, in just three days it's like this was really painful to watch, but you have to do talk to the HR policy. So I think there's a real push and pull between

Podcast Lenno: With the gaming chairs and the nine screens and the headphones and the work that came out was phenomenal. Yep. Yeah. And you have when you asked them to come into the office and just free to you was just like this this was really painful to watch, but you have to adhere to obviously HR politics. So I think it there's a real push and pull between what's right for the individual and what's right for the company. But we as data leaders and

Podcast Wide: what's right for the individual and what's right for the company.

Brendan Ellis: what's right for the individual and what's right for the company. But we as data leaders and

Podcast Wide: We as data leaders and,

Brendan Ellis: I was going to say influencers in the data space. I mean, let's get ahead of ourselves. Isn't it? Well, you are, I listen, I just bring the good chat. You bring the looks, I know. So this is, this is how it works. But I think we, the more we talk about it, the more we can influence those around us and the more we can improve the world of data. I mean, how, how cool is this?

Podcast Wide: what's it say, influencers in the data space. I'm going have to get that out of We're influencers. come on. You are. You've used the word now. Listen, I just bring a good chat and you bring a look. So this is how it works. But I think the more we talk about it, the more we can influence those around us and the more we can.

Podcast Lenno: We're influencers now. Come on. You've used the word now, yeah. I just bring the good chat, you bring the look, Flynn. But the proof this is how it works. But I think we the more we talk about it, the more we can influence those around us and and the more we can in improve the world of data. But I mean, how how cool is this?

Podcast Wide: world of data but I mean how cool is this? know what, first time not only in a wonderful environment and with a proper setup I mean look at this Chris can you come and work with us next week when we have to do it at home? Yeah I'll see you then. But on that note, to everyone who's listening, thank you, you've made it to the end of another This is Not a Data podcast. Now you know this is the thing, do you want to do the end? Yeah so

Podcast Lenno: You know, a first time, not only in a wonderful thing with a proper setup. I mean look at this. Yeah.

Brendan Ellis: You know what, first time not only in a wonderful climate and with a proper setup, mean, Chris, can you come and work with us next week when we have to do it at home? that? But on that note, to everybody listening, thank you. You've made it to the end of another This is Not a Data podcast. Leno, you know, this is the favorite bit. Do you want to do the end?

Podcast Lenno: Chris, can you come and work with us next week when we have to do it at home? Is that I'll see that. Yeah, perfect. On that note, to everybody listening, thank you. You've made it to the end of another This Is Not a Data podcast. no no, you know this is the five but do you do you want to do the end? Yeah, so please all subscribe.

Podcast Wide: please all subscribe, like it and we're all into the big ratings so 5 stars. Yeah this is it, we don't want any of the 3 stars. That's not what's like an evil, we want a 5 star rating. that's good, we'll get you to do the intro next time. Yeah, we will. It's all about getting the better stars so thank you very much for allowing me to do this. It's a pleasure and great to see you and till the next time.

Podcast Lenno: Like it. And we're all into the big ratings. So give us the five stars, maybe. Yeah, this is it. We don't want any of the three stars. That's not what's like a Google. We want a five-star rating. But that's good. We'll get you to do the intro next time. Yeah, who knows? Who knows? It's it's all about getting the battle scars. So thank you very much for allowing me to do this this week. It's a pleasure, and great to see you to everybody else. We'll see you next time.

Brendan Ellis: Yeah, this is it. We don't want any of the three stars. That's not what's like an Uber. We want a five star rating. that's good. We'll get you to do the intro next time. Yeah, we will. It's a pleasure and great to see you and to everybody else, we'll see you next time.